Hook-Up Culture: What Every Woman Needs to Know If You’re Going to Sleep Around

LoveU-Podcast-Episode-31

Sleep with whomever you want! Seriously. As a former slut-turned-happily-married man, I hold no judgment towards women who choose to exercise their liberty to seek pleasure at every turn. The only issue I have as a dating coach is that sometimes (often), you end up getting attached and heartbroken. So let’s dive into hookup culture and talk about what choices are going to make you happy.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    S.

    “Sex as a way to keep busy until he finds love.”  Ah.  So that’s what you were doing.  I never quite thought of sex that way.  But then that’s why I listen to the Love U podcast.  (Sound is better, btw, but still low.)

    I guess my question in learning the nuances between men and women, that other than physical pleasure, what does a man get from sleeping with an unattractive woman? It’s so interesting. On one hand, men say if they are not attracted, it’s a no go.  On the other hand, you say from the study, “men were more likely to accept hook up from women regardless of her attractiveness.”  So which is it?

    Another interesting point.  You state that a lot of men who would make good husbands are frustrated that women will only hook up with very attractive men.  Isn’t there a difference between hook-up material and marriage material? I mean you often say that it’s a rarity for a hook up to turn into a marriage.  So it’s like men are frustrated not to be treated as men a woman would never, ever marry.  It’s odd.  But then maybe they just want to keep busy until they find love as you did.  Fair enough.  I guess a woman would only rather ‘keep busy’ with a very attractive man.  And because very attractive men are game to that, she can.

    The second part of the podcasts is always the best part for me.  The real meat of the issue.  And thanks for saying that you may have hurt more people that you know by hooking up in your dating days.  It seems by the numbers, that’s possible.  And that was with being honest and having integrity.  But still, people get hurt. On both sides.

    Ah, my answer to why: “Good story, fun night, sexual release.”  Hey, I asked and was answered! Thanks for that. 😉 It reminds me of my recent birthday party.   Very rich foods, good friends, dense chocolate cake.  Win, win.  Serotonin sweepstakes.  Except I couldn’t have that every day.  But I can at least see now why someone might have that everyday if they could.  My brain is different than a man’s (and apparently different than 54% of women in that study) but I can understand this.

    “Dating is supposed to be joyous. It’s supposed to fill you up.” This.  This is the thing to not lose sight of.  If it’s not filling you up, then stop what you’re doing.  Take a break. Break up with this one.  Whatever.  Follow your joy.

    Do I like hookup culture? I’m not a part of it so I learned a lot from this podcast.  I don’t like the effect hookup culture has on general dating.  But honestly?  Before they called it ‘hookup’ people slept around with folks they had no intention of being with long-term.  Men and women.  There might have been more consequences socially for it, but not always.  I think it’s human nature to try and experiment and find what works for you.  So I have no judgment on it and was glad to get a different perspective.

    1. 1.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Very well said, S. Glad you’re listening and paying close attention. Appreciate your readership.

    2. 1.2
      Adrian

      Hi “S”,

      As a person who has been around many people that have done what you asked about, I will try to give my own interpretation of their actions.

      You asked,

      You state that a lot of men who would make good husbands are frustrated that women will only hook up with very attractive men.  Isn’t there a difference between hook-up material and marriage material?”

      I can do very little to add to Evan’s great podcast, but what I would say is that from my observation many of these men are hypocrites (Not all) . He can be a 4 in looks but he will still want a 7 in looks, yet he feels self-righteous because he tells himself that he is NOT shallow, due to the fact that he is not chasing after the 8’s, 9’s and 10’s.

      I’ve seen these type of guys pass up on brilliant, kind hearted, women that are also 4’s or 5’s. This is not all men of course, but many good guys want higher tier women. What they are mad about is NOT that average women sleep with hot guys over them, what they are mad about is that they-the average looking guy can’t sleep with hot women!

      This is a huge generalization of course. But even if all of that is not the case I still call most of these men hypocrites because…. They want women to accept a man she is not physically attracted to due to the simple fact that he has a good heart, yet most of these same men will not accept a woman they are not physically attracted to regardless if he KNOWS she will be the best woman he has ever had.

       

      The commenter Nissa said something so powerful in a previous post. She said that the secret to being successful in dating is being able to give to a potential partner everything you want from a partner. Wanting a partner who is a prize and being seen as a prize by the type of partner we want are two different things.

      ….   ….   …

      You said,

      I guess my question in learning the nuances between men and women, that other than physical pleasure, what does a man get from sleeping with an unattractive woman?

      I have seen this so many times that I thought it was normal. Beautiful men AND women with equally beautiful spouses that cheat with an ugly, or trashy looking person.

      It use to really stump me, but now I believe the answer is just simple variety. A man or woman so different than what they have had everyday for the last 10+ years. I personally don’t believe it is even about the sex, it is just that this man or woman is different-and it is not always physical. I have seen people with very intelligent spouses cheat with brutes, because their personality was so different from their husband’s or wife’s.

      1. 1.2.1
        S.

        Hi Adrian,

        Thanks so much for replying.  I think you misunderstood something here, though:

        He can be a 4 in looks but he will still want a 7 in looks, yet he feels self-righteous because he tells himself that he is NOT shallow, due to the fact that he is not chasing after the 8’s, 9’s and 10’s.

        I wasn’t talking about men. I was referring to the part of the study that Evan about women.  There was a mixed reference even as Evan spoke.  Men who would make good husbands were annoyed that women hooked up with attractive men.  (It never said if the women were attractive and it kind of doesn’t matter, according to the study since unattractive women can apparently get a one night stand any time they want. But I’m digressing.)  The point was husband material men and hook up material men are two very different things to women.   In other words if you are looking for a wife, why be annoyed she didn’t hook up with you?  But maybe men want to be the consolation prize for some sexual release.  Hey, to each their own.   But since most marriages don’t begin as a hookup or one night stand, I don’t know why men don’t focus on what they really want.  But again I learned they like to keep busy having sex.  It’s odd to me, but that seems to be how men are.

        That was my only point there.   I don’t think anyone is being a hypocrite.  Both men and women have different standards for marriage vs. one night stands.  Just women doing one night stands with unnattractive men.   Sexual release isn’t enough.  In fact she might not even get a sexual release with a man she’s not attracted to.  Hmm. How do men manage to perform if the woman really isn’t attractive to him? It’s so hard for me as a woman to get.  But I don’t live in a man’s body so I dunno.   My body simply won’t function sexually if there is no attraction.

        I’ve seen these type of guys pass up on brilliant, kind hearted, women that are also 4’s or 5’s.

        Apparently women are passing up brilliant, kind men as well.  And only half of them are  even satisfied with the hook up with the hot guy?  It must be to do with ego or something.  But I say to men, especially the 10% who weren’t satisfied with a hookup, maybe that hot girl you want isn’t really who you want to marry.  Especially if she doesn’t want you.  What did Evan say once, “For every beautiful woman there is a man who is tired of screwing her?” (‘Cept he didn’t say screw.)

        It’s gotta be ego and just a need for release.  But that’s not something to base a marriage on.  That was all I was saying.  But if people want to stick with satisfying ego and sexual release for the bulk of their lives, I truly wish them well with that.

        the secret to being successful in dating is being able to give to a potential partner everything you want from a partner

        The secret to being successful is knowing when to give a potential partner everything you want in a partner.  Or rather everything they want.  Love languages and all that.  It’s also being able to assess or intuit that partner’s potential to give you want you want/need in a partner.  It’s subtle.  You have to speak the other person’s language or be willing to learn.  The also have to learn yours.

        I dunno, Adrian.  Maybe it is variety. Maybe it’s ego.  I don’t know.  I think of Arnold Schwarzenegger and Maria Shriver.  What else could he have possibly wanted in a woman? But that other woman was from another country.  Maria was a lot, but she wasn’t that.   Maybe they bonded over that.  We could speculate for days, but the fact is, as Evan said this is what some people do.  We can only choose not to participate in it if it’s not for us.

      2. 1.2.2
        S.

        Wow, that posted before I was ready. Didn’t even get my italics in. 🙂

        I wasn’t being facetious when I said I wish people well. Like Evan, I like to see happy people and if someone is happy with what they are doing and causing no harm, cool. 🙂

        Attractive men and women aren’t going to stop having sex with whom they attract.  When did they ever? And why would they stop?  It’s no use being bitter about it.  There are so many, many people in the world.  And we (the societal we) focus on what seems like 1,000 of them.  Surely we each can find one person in the millions of people out there to be attracted to.  It may not be easy, but it’s certainly possible.

        1. jeremy

          I think you raise an interesting and powerful question, S., and I’ll give you my take on it (for whatever that might be worth).

           

          I think that men and women derive psychological validation differently from relationships.  Women are taught (by others and their own experiences) that casual sex is relatively easy to come by, whereas obtaining commitment from a man is difficult – especially from a high-quality man.  Because of this, hooking up (even with a very attractive man) is not very fulfilling to many women because it has little value in terms of validation.  Commitment is what they seek.

           

          Whereas from the male perspective, men learn that most women are not interested in them for themselves, and that they need to offer courtship, commitment, and ultimately provisioning to a woman in order to secure her interest.  If we keep this in mind, we can better understand why an attractive woman interested in casual sex with a man can be far more psychologically validating for him than that same woman wanting commitment from him.  Her wanting commitment means that she wants what he PROVIDES, not necessarily who he IS.  This is why many men grow resentful when they hear that a woman had sex on the first date with another man, but made him wait for months.
          From the female perspective, such a woman may believe that her making the man wait shows INCREASED interest in him, because she views him as relationship material rather than sexual material (which, from her perspective, is MORE psychologically validating).  She does not see his perspective, and often believes her perspective to be more mature, rather than simply different.

    3. 1.3
      CSI

      > So it’s like men are frustrated not to be treated as men a woman would never, ever marry. 

      Look at it from these men’s perspective. Lets say they are interested in marriage. Yet they are getting much less sex than men who just want to play around. I’m sure they would be happy to accept a bit less sex, but they may be getting a *lot* less than these irresponsible men. That’s going to cause a bit of resentment.

      Of course many or most would be okay with foregoing sex before marriage if they would be assured of a great sex life after marriage. Unfortunately its a widely held belief that after marriage a women’s libido takes a huge nosedive. Whether or not that belief has basis in fact I don’t know. But what’s going through his mind is: “if I’m getting little sex now, I’ll be getting next to none after I marry her”.

       

      1. 1.3.1
        S.

        Yet they are getting much less sex than men who just want to play around. I’m sure they would be happy to accept a bit less sex, but they may be getting a *lot* less than these irresponsible men.

        Let’s look at this.  First, you’re assuming married men have less sex.  I’m not a married man so I don’t know.  But I don’t think we can just assume that off the bat.  Next, even if we were to assume that for a few minutes,  maybe it’s less sex but it’s better quality sex?  Doesn’t quality matter?  Third,  maybe the married man is getting more of marriage than just sex.  It may be less sex because they are both tired raising three healthy, beautiful, intelligent human beings.  Or maybe they are building a profitable and healthy livelihood together.  Or maybe both.  How does less sex than a bachelor weigh in with that?

        Things wax and wane in LTRs and marriages.  Maybe sometimes there is more sex, sometimes less but this is within an entire lifetime together. I read an article online about a couple in their 90s celebrating 75 years together.  That’s amazing.   Sure, sex has to be healthy and good and satisfying for both partners, but as frequent? Sometimes it’s not and I’m sure with couples in it for the long haul, that’s okay.

        Its a widely held belief that after marriage a women’s libido takes a huge nosedive. Whether or not that belief has basis in fact I don’t know.

        I have never heard of this in my life.  People marry at differing ages too. I can’t imagine two newlyweds in the 20s not going at it on the regular as much as they want.  One thing that does change a woman’s hormones is pregnancy and nursing.  But that’s what all that healthy sex can lead to. 🙂

        So if sex is the only thing the person is looking for, I understand the resentment.  But in thinking about the spectrum of a full, happy, decades-long marriage, I don’t see it.  Most women will never give their full selves to the hook up guy.   But I’m not sure sometimes what men who say they want marriage want.  Marriage is not about one night of hot sex.   It may be years of good sex, with some mind-blowing sexual events in there.  🙂 I’m sure it varies from couple to couple.  But if he wants just night after night, year after year of guaranteed hot sex, more than single men get who have less responsibilities and ties, I just don’t think that anyone can really guarantee that.

        I don’t believe the next-to-none thing.  Maybe some married folks can weigh in on that. 😉

  2. 2
    sophia

    Good podcast. In a nutshell (to paraphrase another now-forgotten source), the more casual the sex, the greater the chances of somebody (usually the woman) getting hurt.

    I once slept with an acquaintance and we actually talked BEFOREhand about my need for a call the next day (that’s actually all I asked for-at that time) to which he totally agreed and understood – vehemently, in fact, and ……..nothing. I was deeply hurt. Devastated.

    But the lesson was learned.

  3. 3
    Nissa

    Whether one likes the hookup culture in general or not, it seems obvious that people get something from it – otherwise they wouldn’t do it. Women most likely get validation of their worth, attractiveness, and feel loved or wanted, even if it’s just for the short term. Men get validation of the same things, plus the emotional intimacy that may not be available to them from their male friendships or workplace (women are more likely to have friendships that serve this purpose).

    Either way, taking personal responsibility for meeting your own needs in a way that hurts no one is an excellent place to start. Blaming others accomplishes nothing, and fails to make change in your part of that dynamic. And it genuinely makes you better relationship material if you learn to meet your own needs instead of requiring changes from others.

    Besides, for most people, this only takes about three months before a guy either commits to boyfriend status or ghosts you. If a woman isn’t willing to give three months for herself, why should anyone else?

    1. 3.1
      Jayne

      Well said, Nissa.  Women have needs as well, including sexual, and we need to take ownership of that and not judge men for it.  Personally, I am monogamous with a strong sex drive (and I’m 65!) and single.  I don’t expect the man I choose to be with (and I’m selective not based on looks alone) to be with only me from the beginning, but as our relationship develops I do believe there comes a choice. (I have no set time limit but go with how I’m feeling…if I’m not happy then it’s time to move on.)  If he’s not with me, I don’t stick around as I want one male companion for the long haul.  No hard feelings.  I think it’s called getting to know one another, we just happen to include sex in the equation.  As a result, I have good memories and a couple of men I care deeply for without regret.  If I don’t find “the One”, at least I’ve had fun and have good memories.

      1. 3.1.1
        SQ

        I can really agree with you, Jayne. I’m about your age…attractive, energetic and I take very good care of myself. I look at dating at our stage in life to be a “numbers game” quite often. There are LOTS of very nice older AND younger men out there who want to spend time with older women who have a good mind, the wisdom of living life to the fullest and find the joy in living a fulfilled, mindful life! If sex is in the mix and we are clear about our desires, boundaries and take responsibility for what we choose to create, the rest can just flow. For me, great sex (mutual satisfaction and caring) is an important part of relationship.

        I also want one male companion for the long haul and not necessarily marriage. Sometimes the exclusive part takes time and patience. Being clear about what makes us happy and not settling for less is really the stuff of life, no matter what age we are!

  4. 4
    AN

    I love listening to your podcasts/reading your blog Evan, thank you for your refreshing views! I am in my early forties and have been having hook-ups to casual sex to committed relationships (unfortunately a divorce in there too) for a while now. Currently trying to find ‘the one’!!!  I agree with you, us girls need to have the self control to say no to a hook-up if we are wanting more. I always use my ‘rule’ of: If I sleep with this guy and he doesn’t call me tomorrow, will I (honestly!) be ok with that. If I get a pang of ‘but I hope he does! I really like him’ I don’t put myself in that situation.

    It is definitely getting harder and harder, at least for me, to do these days with Internet dating! Before it was more: meet in a bar, barely speak, have chemistry, have sex, see what happens. Now we are all ‘dating’ so getting to know the other person..becoming more invested…it is harder not to get confused by what the other persons agenda is and think you have someone interested in a relationship when they just want to hook-up…! But staying true to yourself never changes.

  5. 5
    Amanda

    Loved this podcast – I have had hook up sex a few times and always found that I have felt like crap the morning after – As you mention Evan the key is to say no or wait longer til it moves into a relationship..I find the information you put out there so authentic and refreshingly honest – Thank You

  6. 6
    GoWiththeFlow

    Evan,

    Okay, so now I’m curious.  You said that for 3 years you didn’t have sex (intercourse) with anyone who wasn’t your girlfriend, but you got blow jobs.  For most men, is there really such a big step up in “seriousness” from a blow job to intercourse?

    1. 6.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      It’s a blurry and subjective line. All I know is that most women count their number of sex partners. That means intercourse. So, like it or not, for some women there is a difference between oral sex and vaginal intercourse. Others may not make a distinction. The greater point is that:

      a) Women should feel comfortable and secure in saying no to sex without commitment.
      b) If you don’t engage in any serious foreplay prior to commitment, the man may feel unattractive, confused, or like he’s back in 7th grade. It’s therefore “effective” to make sure he gets some gratification from your hook-up sessions…while you’re assessing each others’ worthiness as boyfriend/girlfriend.
      c) If you think that giving him any gratification prior to commitment goes against your values…or won’t distinguish third base from home plate (so to speak), you’re entitled to that. You shouldn’t be terribly surprised if men are not as enthralled with the low-grade petting for five weeks.

  7. 7
    Kyra

    I no longer do casual sex or hook-up, but I did for a long time. I’m a 40DD and quite shapely in the read so my dating life only produced immediate offers for casual sex or hook-ups, sadly. While my sexual needs were seen to to some extent, they certainly weren’t fulfilled. I’m truly only fulfilled sexually when I am in love with someone.

    I don’t get connected to casual sex partners and much prefer one-time fun and done. I usually have zero interest in repeating. It may have been an avoidant attachment thing, a boredom with casual sex after years of having it or just a way I used to avoid oxytocin and becoming attached to someone that is, strictly, sex and/or about sex. Still, I found I never had a desire to see someone after a casual hook-up.

    I  let them know I don’t generally have a desire to sleep with someone more than once casually. I let them know I do not believe in the term “Friends with Benefits.” I let them know I was fully open and willing to have a NSA hookup with them if I found them attractive, but that I did not seek the “getting to know you,” casual companionship, dinner and drinks, friendly chit chat stuff. I, rarely, even felt a need to want to know or learn one another’s real name or occupation. It felt unnecessary for someone I’d, more than likely, never see, hear from or want to see or hear from again.

    Surprisingly, most men were appalled by this. The idea I was not open to offering them casual companionship, “friendship,” and regular, ongoing sex when and for as long they wanted it from me completely baffled and angered them.
    I then let them know, if they wanted to date, get to know one another, consider a relationship and then enter an exclusive dating relationship with regular, ongoing, great sex they could let me know and I would be open to that since they didn’t want the one-time option.

    Faced with the two options, 9-out-of 10 opted for the one and done.

     

    1. 7.1
      D_M

      Kyra,

      I am having a hard time grasping what you are trying to convey to the gallery. Is it that based on your experience:

      Men had a more difficult time coping than you did?

      Given the opportunity to have an LTR, men overwhelming chose option one, which should be an inference as to how those particular men viewed LTRs?

      1. 7.1.1
        Kyra

        My apologies, D_M. I suppose I shared more of an experience than a commentary. I suppose I was conveying two things:

        1. That casual sex, for me, most often (in my experience) included some form or needed “connection” or “emotional chemistry.” They wanted to have dinner or drinks, talk, share, laugh and then move to the sexual stuff. When it came to sex, strictly, without any emotional collateral included (time, companionship, laughter, conversation, cuddling, etc.)  with the sex, they felt it impersonal and unwanted. They, essentially, wanted all of the things a boyfriend received from a woman without actually being a boyfriend. And, as a woman, I was no longer willing to give to a man the things girlfriends give without actually being a man’s girlfriend.

        Not all, but some, went so far as to ask me to be sexually exclusive with them, without commitment or being in a relationship.

        Men want sex, but what  good percentage want is all of the benefits of a relationship from a woman without the responsibility of being a boyfriend. So, when it comes to an actual exchange of simply sex for sex (without the pomp and circumstance most men have learned or figured comes with luring a woman into bed) yes, I noted the men I engaged with had a hard time coping or, rather, felt less than thrilled to enter into a purely sex for sex arrangement. They felt, I supposed, cheapened to be thought of as a one-time sexual only sexual object by a woman and their ego offended that woman wouldn’t want them again sexually again/continuously.

        2. I support consensual, casual sex between any parties who chooses partake in it, but I did, yes, at some point begin to have a very hard time coping with casual sex. It was until a) I fell in love with a man I’ve had a 10-year off and on relationship with. In the throes of passion (gross, I had to say those words) he claims his love for me. However, he suffers from severe dismissive-avoidant attachment and never wants to marry… anyone. But, because of the intense love between us the sex between is far more spectacular than any casual sex I’ve had with any person just “for fun.”  By and large my casual sexual experience leave me feeling very sexually unsatisfied and empty.

        It wasn’t until I knew I truly  I wanted and valued a loving relationship (boyfriend and girlfriend) that coping with casual sex because difficult.  So, due to my own casual sexual avoidance and oxytocin awareness I internally just began making the rule to not have sex with someone more than once casually. It’s not something I sat down and thought about or decided with some intense plan to do, I just started to feel inside, after the deed was done, that I had no desire to see the person again. One and done… let’s all get on with our lives. And, I had to understand that is because I felt no love, care or strong emotion for the individual so sex was no longer something I could do without those elements. And, most women (and a good majority of men), over time, feel this or come to that place in life. But, the pervasiveness of the hook-up culture leaves a lot of us constantly faced with casual sex offers and relationships with little-to-no ability to build something more substantial with someone.

        I wrote down Evan’s mantra long ago, “Men look for sex and find love. Women look for love and find sex.” I realized that last line has wholeheartedly been my entire dating experience and, after a while, simply took casual sexual relationships off the table.

         

        1. Kyra

          My apologies. #1 should read:

          1. That casual sex, for men, most often (in my experience) included some form or needed “connection” or “emotional chemistry.” 

        2. D_M

          Kyra,

          Thanks for the clarification. There is a utilitarian aspect to your first point. I suspect that you are probably right about the ego assessment and how that particular proposition is internalized.  You may have unwittingly provided the blueprint to balance the male, female dynamic for your fellow sisters that feel the need to parktake every now and then. I must admit, faced with: “without any emotional collateral included (time, companionship, laughter, conversation, cuddling, etc.)”

          Does have a sense of interchangeability that isn’t appetizing. I want to believe that I wouldn’t parktake, but I’m having a hard time saying that I would be any different than the other 90%. I’m trying to think of a metaphor that does not offend, but I’m falling short there too. I believe that we all have an associated maintenance cost, which can only be paid by a select few.

        3. Kyra

          It certainly isn’t for everyone, since I feel we’ve been led to believe we have to connect with someone mentally before we can engage with them physically. Which, for the hook-up, one night stand, likely never see each other again culture, I completely stopped seeing the point of. Why should I give my time, attention and emotional output to someone I’ll sleep with and likely never see again? What does that add to my life? So, I just began telling them let’s do it without all of that. No talk. No chit chat. C*m and go (pardon my phrasing). Get on with life. Let’s not pretend we need to know one another to play the sex game.

          But, I’ve had men express their dislike and distaste of the concept and compare it to being with a sex worker (which didn’t offend me in concept – I believe sex work should be legal and regulated and would have a great impact on dating and hook-up culture). They did not like the fact I would not get to “know” them on an interpersonal level because they wouldn’t be able to believe I was truly attracted to the man they are, a) giving them commitment-free companionship and sex whenever they wanted and b) giving them a significant and necessary ego boost that will then compel them in their pursuit of other women.

          I believe the greatest myth we’ve concocted is that women need emotional connection to engage sexually with someone, but it’s been evident to me for a while men need it just as much. They don’t just want to sleep with any woman, they want and need to believe they women they choose to sleep with is attracted to the man he is. He needs his manhood validated and knowing a woman is simply using his tool as, well, just a tool for her own one-time pleasure is not appealing to him. Granted, some men can largely anonymous sex with a woman who is, essentially, a stranger and without the “get to know you/let’s be friends” bells and whistles, but I find a good majority cannot and do not want to. Most  want the illusion of emotional companionship/closeness to go along with the sex.

          The want the girlfriend experience without the girlfriend.

          Which extends to my issue with the label “friends with benefits.” As Even says in the podcast, people aren’t “friends” to one another with benefits. They’re just benefits to one another. A text asking “u up?” at 2:30am in the morning once a month and no emotional connection time outside of that doesn’t seem very friendly to me.

          My way is also not for everyone because it means you sleep with someone once. And, because you don’t repeat, you increase your number of partners based on your sexual need. I would only engage 2-3 times per year, but for someone else with a greater sexual need (of which I have, but ignored to lower my sexual risk), your partners and STI risks increase. So, sometimes it is safer and more appealing to take one long-term, casual sex, hook-up partner, but that’s when oxytocin, attachment, someone “falling,” and a feeling of being used by someone (who for whatever reasons does not see you as dating/relationship material) arises.

          I’ve always believed, like you said, this would provide a blueprint to balance the dynamic in hook-up culture for women greatly.  When faced with a one-time sex opportunity with a greater percentage of women who offer casual sex with: no emotion, no connection, no creation chemistry, aquaintanceship or “friendship,” and zero possibility for repeat or returning to that woman to have their sexual needs met on a casual, NSA level, would men do it?

          I would think you’d see the men seeking casual sex greatly diminish and seeking exclusive relationships increase if a great percentage of women used such a blueprint.

  8. 8
    S.

    To Jeremy, responding to 1.2.2:

    I am not sure I understand or agree with all you say but it sure is an interesting discussion. 🙂

    men learn that most women are not interested in them for themselves, and that they need to offer courtship, commitment, and ultimately provisioning to a woman in order to secure her interest.

    This is where I was puzzled. If a woman wants a marriage-minded man that is himself.  Isn’t it? To me it’s not separate.

    Now back to the podcast:  Evan may differ but while he was going on 300 dates and hooking during a lot of them, I wouldn’t have called him ‘marriage-minded’.  Maybe ‘marriage-minded eventually’ but not marriage minded in those experiences.  When he took three years off (bjs notwithstanding) he was making a decision based on his previous experiences and who he really was or wanted to be, in my opinion.

    The upshot – a woman who wants commitment wants someone aligned with her values.  If a man is not aligned with her, if that’s not ‘himself’ at that time, she’ll move on.  The men who really do want marriage and are just ‘keeping busy’? She’ll probably move on from them as well. If their actions remain the same how can she know what they really want?

    I don’t see the difference between who he IS and what he PROVIDES, as you put it.   Shouldn’t it be one and the same?

    1. 8.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      S – Not to interrupt your conversation or shoot down your narrative, but I was ALWAYS marriage minded. I might not have been employed. I might not have been ready. But my goal was ALWAYS to fall in love, get married, and have a family. I made the choice that instead of remaining chaste until marriage, I would enjoy foreplay (and sometimes more) with women I was attracted to, even if I didn’t see marrying them. But I never stayed with anyone for more than a month unless I wanted her to be my girlfriend. That’s what I mean by marriage minded. I never had a friend with benefits; I was always looking for the one.

      1. 8.1.1
        S.

        I was ALWAYS marriage minded.

        Fair enough.  I’ve been thinking about this, that just because a man doesn’t marry the many women he’s dating or being intimate with doesn’t mean he doesn’t want marriage at all. But since you yourself said that hookups rarely lead to marriage and you’re the dating coach, I thought that’s why you stopped hooking up.   That that would be more effective.

        From your podcast it seems you always acted with integrity or the best that you could.  It is hard to know if a man is marriage-minded.  He may say so and it may be true as it is in your case. But how would those scores of women know that?  They didn’t all get to girlfriend, you know?  So if you broke it off early with them, they could conclude (wrongly but still) that you didn’t want marriage.

        Not everyone is going to make it to boyfriend or girlfriend.  Discernment is important.  And you don’t always get to know if a person you were dating short-term told you really was true.  They don’t always get to know if what you said was true.   It’s difficult but it’s the way it is.

        I’m going to think about your comment, though.  That some commitment-minded men prefer to sleep with a lot of women in a short-term way in their search for love.   I thought marriage minded people made a choice eventually from the people they dated.   I guess others need a much, much, much wider selection of candidates.

        Good to know. 🙂

        1. Adrian

          Hello S,

          Why couldn’t the answer just be that these women saw that Evan wanted to get married, just not to them?

          That is how I would take it if a great woman told me that she wanted to be in a relationship with a great guy, but then she dumped me. I would take it that she was not lying; she does want to end up with a great guy, just not this great guy (^_^)… That does not negate the fact that I would be hurt.

          What is your opinion on Evan’s podcast about overestimating ourselves and our SMV ratings? Karmic Equation always speaks on this.

          Many of us over estimate how good of a partner we are, mostly everyone thinks they are a catch and they think they DO know their ratings. It never occurs to them that the person who said they look 10 years younger, or the person who said they are great boyfriend/girlfriend material, or the person who said that they never noticed another man/woman while dating them, etc. was just being nice.

          So their thinking is, “since I am a great catch, the problem must have been with the other person who dumped me.” He/she was a commitment phob, he/she wasn’t serious about wanting to get married, he/she etc, etc, etc.

          I think you and I, and everyone has been where Evan was, we had a good person we were dating and we wanted something serious, yet there was something about that person that made them someone we did not want to grow old with.

          Some times the answer truly is “it is you and not me.” But how many of us are actually heartless enough to tell the person whose heart we are breaking this?

    2. 8.2
      jeremy

      S., you wrote “I don’t see the difference between who he IS and what he PROVIDES, as you put it.   Shouldn’t it be one and the same?”

       

      I’m so glad you wrote this, because it highlights the difference in the male and female perspective.  To answer your question – NO, it isn’t the same at all.

       

      Take, for example, the nerdy guy who was never popular with the girls in high school.  But he went to school, got a lucrative job, and is now considered a great catch by many women who never would have considered him before.  Sure, he may have matured over the years, might have developed more confidence, etc, but he is largely the same guy he always was.  The difference is that he is now considered “marriage material” by women who are searching for a guy like him, not for who he is, but for what he can provide.  If he lost his job, he would lose his desirability.  His desirability stems from what he provides.  Not who he IS.

       

      Most women understand the inverse of this – they are desired too much for who/what they ARE and not enough for what they provide.  They decry this as “objectification” – a man only wants me for my body, not for my mind.    They want men to value more of what they know, what they provide, and not just for their sexual value.  This is why they don’t value hookups as much as offers of commitment.

       

      But if you are a man, used to being valued for your commitment but not your body, you actually desire a bit of healthy objectification by women – and the less you get it, the more psychological validation you derive from it when you do.

      1. 8.2.1
        Adrian

        Hi Jeremy,

        You stated :

        “But if you are a man, used to being valued for your commitment but not your body, you actually desire a bit of healthy objectification by women – and the less you get it, the more psychological validation you derive from it when you do.”

        WOW! I seriously never thought about it like that! For years I have heard women call men needy,  shallow, or perverts for wanting to be seen as a sexual object (you can even find it on many comments on this blog), but I never once considered that you just have a subject that two genders are trying to look at from their own and not the others perspective!

        We men crave to been seen as objects of lust in our woman’s eyes because we rarely if ever experience it, while women experience it too much so they see offering a man that level or kind of sexual attention as disrespectful and distasteful.

        Really, wow, just wow! I love it! You blow my mind twice today.

        …   ….   …

        So in your opinion do you feel that women do lust after men just as men lust after women, yet because of person, gender, as well as social conditioning, they refrain from acting on it even when in a committed relationship, or do you feel that women naturally can’t experience the same “levels” of lust toward a man because of evolution, biology, etc?

        1. Emily, the original

          Adrian,

          We men crave to been seen as objects of lust in our woman’s eyes because we rarely if ever experience it,

          Really? In all of your 30 years on this planet, you have never felt that a woman really lusted after you? What would a woman have to do to make it clear she really wanted you?

          So in your opinion do you feel that women do lust after men just as men lust after women

          I can assure they do.

      2. 8.2.2
        Nissa

        Jeremy, I’d have to say that all of us, men and women, deserve to be desired for who we are – our real selves. Don’t settle for anything less.

      3. 8.2.3
        S.

        It is an interesting discussion.  I used the word ‘provides’ (quoting you) and that really resonates for you.  As a woman it doesn’t really resonate for me. I don’t care about a man’s job or any money he has.  There I said it.   When I think of providing, it’s not money I’m thinking about.  I can agree on courtship and commitment.  But not on money, not for me.

        Here is the nuance and I’m seeing where men and women misunderstand each other.  It’s the nuances.  Your friend became more confident when he had a better job.  That confidence may be what attracted most of the women to him, not the money itself.  (Not to say there aren’t true gold diggers out there but I’ve never met one.)

        I have dated unemployed men before.  (Well, one.)  Yep.  The problem isn’t me needing them to provide money for me.  The problem is being unemployed affected their self-esteem and confidence and that can poison a relationship.  All a woman’s reassurances in the world can’t take away a man’s (even a beta man’s) need to protect and provide for a woman he’s in a relationship with.  So that experience behind me, I now make sure a man is happy in his work or moving in a direction to be happy in his work.

        So to me, it’s not the money, it’s the confidence.  And that’s part of who he is.  Maybe the money made him confident first, maybe they go hand in hand.  But that’s what I see.  If I saw a jobless man but one with ambition and a plan for a career he was passionate about that would attract me.  (Along with other things.)  Especially if he had it outlined where he was going.  That passion would be hard to resist!

        They decry this as “objectification” – a man only wants me for my body, not for my mind. 

        It may be a bit more nuanced than that.  Looks fade. What’s inside lasts.  I want a man for what’s inside. I do want it in a package that I can be attracted to.  But half of attraction for me in what’s inside.  And the men I know value me more than my body.  I’m not not unhappy if they find the body pleasing too. 😉  Don’t we all want both?

        I think that’s what you are saying too?  Men want to be valued for both.  If I’ve misunderstood I’m sure you’ll let me know!

        Oh, and I almost missed this:

        They want men to value more of what they know, what they provide, and not just for their sexual value.  This is why they don’t value hookups as much as offers of commitment.

        Women aren’t thinking about what they provide in the way men do.  Nope.  And most men aren’t looking for women for money.  Maybe women should be looking at this, but most don’t.   Women do want men to appreciate them for more than their sexual value and that very well may be why they don’t value hookups as much and why the study showed such dissatisfaction in them afterward.

        Women do get an ego boost from being found sexually attractive. But most women want to connect.  I read that in this very blog all the time.  It’s what we are wired to do and it feels so good.   So a hook up without that connection has less value.   I know that may not resonate for men but that’s what women say here and say in real life all the time.  And I think that’s why Evan is cautioning women who need that connection about hookups.

        1. Crazynopetlady

          I’ve never met a real gold digger either. I would never put myself back in the position of needing a man for his money.  That being said there are obviously gold diggers – do you think Trump, Hefner or Sheen would EVER get any of those women to touch them if they weren’t loaded?  Myself – well I would be vomiting, so I obviously have standards that don’t include wealth.  Most girls I know, myself included are actually MORE wary of rich men.  Most of the rich men I’ve met believe they can treat women any way they like and the woman just has to take it in return for jewellery or something.  I know my ex believed that because he spent thousand on me that gave him the right to be verbally abusive and ultimately violent.  Stories about Trump indicate similar character traits.  They want submission in return for money and some chicks will do that, it seems.

          To be fair I work in Academia and spend most of my time with PhD students and doctorates, so the young girls I know are all smart and would rather be a poor student than a rich mans plaything.  As would I.  I think my ex couldn’t quite believe I walked away from him and didn’t beg for him to forgive me (for something he imagined).  That being said, like you, I want a man who at least has a job. Why? Because at my age, unless he’s retired early, not having a job is a sign of a serious problem.

          I don’t understand why men are so intent on believing women only want their money.  When I talk to the women around me – it certainly doesn’t hurt but it would never be a deciding factor.  They will always judge on how they are treated first.

          I find my life as a woman far easier now I’m older and less attractive.  I married very early to take myself out of the meat market because of the grossness of men my age when I was 20. Just wanting sex and only caring about my looks.  If I had a dollar for every man who has said to me ‘You’re smarter than you look’, I could retire now.  Women like to feel attractive but it does get tiring when it’s your only value to a man.

          The men I hang out with now are all far younger than me so, I know they value me for my brains only.. It’s incredibly refreshing to be spoken to by a man as a normal human without any sexual agenda whatsoever.  I have found these friendships with younger men very rewarding.  They give me faith back in the human race.

        2. jeremy

          S., sorry for the lateness of this reply.  After reading your comment, I see that I was unclear when I used the word “provide,” and that it gave you the idea that I was talking about money.

           

          I completely agree with you that most women are not gold-diggers.  But here is my observation about a key difference between men and women – women tend to fantasize about lifestyle, while men tend to fantasize about women.  What I mean by “lifestyle” is that when women become attracted to men, they may fantasize about having sex with them, but also fantasize about having children, a house, friends, family parties…..fantasize about what a life together would be like.  Frankly, they often have pre-conceived notions of what they want their life to look like, and search for a man based on how he fits into that mold – how well he can provide the future she envisions via his actions (and, to some extent, income).

           

          What he “provides” isn’t just money.  It may be his “dad potential”, if she wants kids and help raising them.  It might be his willingness to help around the house.  It is, by and large, his ability to play the role she wants a man to play in the lifestyle she envisions.

           

          Whereas men, when we fantasize, basically just fantasize about having sex with a woman we find attractive.  We tend not to think so far ahead, or in so much detail, about our future life together.

           

          This is what I meant when I wrote that women want men for what they provide when they search for men to marry.  Whereas when they search for men for pleasure/sex, they just look for attraction, plain and simple, much like men do.  And my comment was that sometimes men find it more validating to be desired sexually by women, rather than to be desired based on how well they can provide her with the lifestyle she envisions.

  9. 9
    Adrian

    Hi Jeremy,

    Great insight about the possible reason why “some” women confess to sleeping with hot guys she doesn’t see a future with while making attractive guys she does see a future with wait!

    For years whenever I saw or heard a woman say that it confused the heck out of me (this happened to a lot of my friends)!

    But I never considered as you said that since women value commitment more than sex that they are actually viewing the men who they make wait as having higher value.

    Though from our male perspective it is the opposite, we see it as her placing a higher value on the guy she sleep with on date one or the guy who she chose as your friend with benefit.

    …   …   …

    In your opinion, why do you think the women who do operate that way can’t see it from our perspective? If guy A has to do no work (courting) but gets full access to her body a few times every month, yet guy B has to not only wait a few months, but he has to continually work (courting) for simply the “chance” to have sex with her!

    I just can’t see why the women who do think that way can’t see it from our perspective. It is like two people walking up to an owner of a million dollar yacht, and the owner telling guy “A” that he does not trust him, so he is going to allow him to ride the yacht at “least” 3 times a month, while to guy “B” the owner confesses that he likes. So he tells guy “B” that he will have to clean, refuel, and wax the yacht daily for about 2-3 months, and then “maybe” he can get a ride on the yacht (O_o).

    1. 9.1
      GoWiththeFlow

      Adrian & Jeremy,

      I’m finding this comment thread very interesting, especially in light of today’s post on sexism and being a sex object.  I don’t think men want to be viewed as sex objects, where you are to be used for someone else’s gratification without regards to what your needs and boundaries are.  I think a better term is to say that men would like to be regarded as sexual beings, who’s needs and desires are considered normal, and who are desired by women, sexually, without regards to whether they they are good husband prospects.

      And the phenomenon of women who might have a one night stand with a hot guy, then make a man she’s serious about relationship wise wait is because of the persistent sexual double standard women are still held to.  A significant number of men will still, consciously or subconsciously, consider a woman who has sex with him on a mysterious timeline he considers “too soon” to be sexually loose, a slut, or a woman of lesser value, and dismiss her as a prospective girlfriend or wife.

      As a woman, the decision of when to sleep with a guy she really likes is almost always tainted by the fear of his rejecting her if he decides she had sex with him “too soon.”  On the other side of the gender divide, a woman will rarely if ever have the thought, “Gosh he sure did give it up right away.  I wonder if he does this with every woman he meets?” A man can have multiple casual sex partners and it won’t put a dent in his mate value. Whereas “too many” sexual partners can destroy a woman’s mate value in the eyes of many.

      1. 9.1.1
        jeremy

        GWTF, you wrote: “On the other side of the gender divide, a woman will rarely if ever have the thought, “Gosh he sure did give it up right away.”

         

        Sure they do.  But not referring to sex, but rather to commitment.  There have been several comments on this blog, just today and yesterday, stating that men who offer commitment too fast are not desirable to women.  Women want the men who have options and exercise discretion, right? 🙂

         

        Regarding your comment about men being turned off by women who have sex too quickly, I think it really depends on the guy – some are like this, others not.  But what most men have in common is the sense that if a woman made him wait while not making another guy wait, she somehow valued that other guy more.  Because while women perceive courtship as something they want men to do because the man values them, men perceive courtship as something they have to do because the woman does not value them without it.

         

        The gulf between these perspective leads to much of the mis-understanding that I see from many commenters here.  I am not saying women are wrong or men are wrong – they are both right….but both need to acknowledge the perspective of the other as valid.

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          Jeremy,

          “Sure they do.  But not referring to sex, but rather to commitment.  There have been several comments on this blog, just today and yesterday, stating that men who offer commitment too fast are not desirable to women.  Women want the men who have options and exercise discretion, right?”

          I think I know exactly what comment thread you are referring to. 😉  I disagreed with the theme that at the very beginning of a potential relationship, a man should hold back and limit phone and text interaction so that the woman will place a higher value on him.  I just finished reading Attached by Amir Levine and a person doing this “holding back” behavior at the beginning of a courtship risks winding up with an avoidant person, who then continues to want their SO to remain at arms length.   You also run the risk of a woman writing you off as being only mildly interested.

          I get it that sometimes the less interested of of the two people at the beginning stages can be wary of the other’s enthusiasm for them.  But I don’t think the enthusiastic person’s demeanor means they’re needy or of “low value.”  As Evan says, you can’t do the wrong thing right person.  So if a relationship doesn’t happen in this situation, I think it’s because the two people aren’t a match, not because a wonderful future marriage tragically didn’t happen because the guy scared her off at the beginning.

          “But what most men have in common is the sense that if a woman made him wait while not making another guy wait, she somehow valued that other guy more.”

          Quite the opposite.  Unfortunately, men who don’t subscribe to the sexual double standard may wind up doing “the punishment” of having to wait for sex because of a woman’s fears that he might.  It’s not stamped across your forehead that you don’t think early sex makes a woman a slut, so women will go the safe route.  Guys, the double standard isn’t your friend!  Work to end it it you may get it earlier and more often 😉

          “. . . men perceive courtship as something they have to do because the woman does not value them without it.”

          Wow.  If true, that’s really depressing.  I would hope men are getting some joy out of getting to know someone and by realizing that someone likes them and, if it’s right, falls in love with them.

      2. 9.1.2
        Adrian

        Hi GoWithTheFlow,

        I think Jeremy did say “healthy” sexual objectification of men, but I admit that I omitted the word healthy in my comment. Nevertheless, I do believe that I added “within a relationship” in my rebuttal.

        Now this is me going completely into speculation territory, but I always assumed that at least some of the men complaining about wanting to be seen through lustful eyes by a woman and not just as a good boyfriend or husband material, also included guys in relationships as well.

        So (operating on this assumption ) in your opinion do you think women are as lustful and see their boyfriends/husbands through lust filled eyes  just as men see women, but they hold back even when in a relationship?

        I have read many studies, books, and anecdotal accounts of women (in general) still wanting men to initiate sex the majority of the time even while in a long-term relationship. But if women are lusting after their significant others, then why don’t they initiate whenever horny just as a man does? She would have no reason to feel slut shamed, so no reason to hold back.

         

        1. jeremy

          Adrian, I have no doubt that many women lust after men.  But I think the problem comes down to the way men and women tend to communicate, with men communicating overtly and women covertly.

           

          A woman may lust after a man, but express it in a way that he does not understand.  She may bat her eyelashes at him, touch his hand, flirt with him – all covert ways of expressing interest.  But HE will be the one to have to ask her out, usually.  And because he is used to overt communication, he will desire overt communication from her, and may never receive it.  And so, he may never feel desired in a way he understands on a visceral level.
          Consider porn, for example (sorry for the jump, but bear with me).  Why do so many men like porn so much?  No doubt in part it is due to variety and visual stimulation.  But there is another aspect that is often overlooked – the women in porn are almost always the INITIATORS of sexual activity.  They want it, and let their wants be known.  They moan LOUDLY with pleasure, letting the men listening know that they are enjoying it.  What many men get out of watching this is the fantasy that a woman can desire them enough to initiate all the activities that men find psychologically validating – not because the woman wants something he provides, but simply because she desires HIM.  That is the fantasy (for more on this, see “Mating in Captivity” by Esther Perel).

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          Adrian,

          I do think that women view their boyfriends/husbands “through lust filled eyes.”  As has been established, men will have casual sex with a woman they don’t find attractive (guess their lust filled eyes are gazing at Scarlett Johansen in their heads) while women want to be with someone they find attractive.

          Jeremy nailed it when he said when it comes to initiating sex that men communicate overtly and women covertly.  I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had men friends relay how a date went and I just crack up because they totally missed their date’s signals that she wanted to take things to the next level.

          I also think that the average man has a stronger sex drive than the average woman due to his much greater levels of testosterone. So many times, especially in the setting of an LTR, a woman doesn’t get the chance to initiate because the guy already went there.

        3. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          Consider porn, for example (sorry for the jump, but bear with me).  Why do so many men like porn so much?  No doubt in part it is due to variety and visual stimulation.  But there is another aspect that is often overlooked – the women in porn are almost always the INITIATORS of sexual activity.  They want it, and let their wants be known.  They moan LOUDLY with pleasure, letting the men listening know that they are enjoying it.  What many men get out of watching this is the fantasy that a woman can desire them enough to initiate all the activities that men find psychologically validating – not because the woman wants something he provides, but simply because she desires HIM.

          That’s interesting, because, as women, we are told not to be sexually aggressive or it will freak men out, turn them off and make them think we are easy.

        4. Adrian

          Hi Emily,

          I-and I believe Jeremy as well as GoWithTheFlow-am talking about the sexual dynamic of men and women in relationships.

          I think almost every man on this blog would agree that a woman should do EVERYTHING she can to not feel uncomfortable or as if they are being judged by a man.

          But my question was about people already in relationships, so lets say after the first four months of dating. You stated,

          “as women, we are told not to be sexually aggressive or it will freak men out, turn them off and make them think we are easy.”

          how does this apply to why I read and hear so much about women mostly (not always) not having sex with their boyfriend unless he initiates if she is lusting after him.

          …   …   …

          As far as being lusted after, No I don’t think I ever have. I have a clean cut look (like I said, I resemble a young Tom Welling), a high paying job, I do a lot of volunteering and I’m very mannerable. I workout a lot so I have the square jawline and the 6 pack, but the women who desire me, always give off the vibe of seeing me as husband material, not as someone to pull into the broom closet because I get her hot.

           

        5. SparklingEmerald

          Hi Adrian at  . . . “how does this apply to why I read and hear so much about women mostly (not always) not having sex with their boyfriend unless he initiates if she is lusting after him.

          and “I have read many studies, books, and anecdotal accounts of women (in general) still wanting men to initiate sex the majority of the time even while in a long-term relationship. But if women are lusting after their significant others, then why don’t they initiate whenever horny just as a man does? She would have no reason to feel slut shamed, so no reason to hold back.

          Ok, I’m a little confused, where are you reading about all these women in committed relationships not initiating sex when married or otherwise coupled up ?   I only read about that in the context of the getting to know each other phase and the “I wonder if he likes me and wants a relationship phase”.

          As for me, in my current relationship and my prior marriage, most intimacy happened by body language, and it was usually MUTUAL.  In most of our intimacy, I would be hard pressed to say who “initiated”.  A hug just has a way of turning into a kiss, a kiss has a way of turning into another kiss, a prolonged kissed.  Then there’s just a certain facial expressions that expresses our mutual desires.  And from there it just escalates.  I really have no desire to keep score and wonder who “initiated”.  I’m just glad to have a regular lover in my life, no fear of being “slut shamed”, no fear that I’ll lose value in his eyes, etc.

          The only complaints I have heard from my female friends is if their man NEVER or RARELY initiates or responds to their INITIATION of sex.  That makes them feel un-loved and un-desired.  I have heard men (on other forums) say they wish their wives would sometimes initiate, because the men want to feel desired as well, and not feel that their wives are just giving them “duty sex”.  (I also post on a marriage forum)

          And as another poster said, usually women don’t “initiate” because their man beats them to the punch.

          However, when I am “in the mood”, and sex doesn’t seem to be forth coming, I have absolutely NO QUALMS about initiating when I am in an established intimate relationship.  It just usually isn’t NECESSARY, because it is happening naturally by mutual initiation, or my guy beat me to the punch.

        6. Nat

          Adrian, “As far as being lusted after, No I don’t think I ever have. I have a clean cut look…(resemble a young Tom Welling), a high paying job, I do a lot of volunteering and I’m very mannerable…the women who desire me, always give off the vibe of seeing me as husband material, not as someone to pull into the broom closet because I get her hot.”

          Lol when relationship-minded people meet someone with the whole package (looks, brains, personality, success), their instinct is often to go into lock-down mode. It’s not that all these women didn’t lust after u, they probably tried to control that instinct in order to appear like LTR material to u. Put it this way, even when a man–who usually has higher sex drive than a woman–meets a woman he thinks has it all, he often turns into a gentleman and doesn’t push for too much sexual contact too fast, in case he blows it with her. I’m not sure if this is the case for very young men and women, but IMO it is certainly the case for people who adults past 25 who see marriage in the horizon.

           

          If u told women u were an aimless party guy who could barely hold down a job, u might have seen them “objectify” you more. 😉 I’m a woman but I don’t really get it either. And agree with your comment #9.

           

        7. Emily, the original

          Hi Adrian,

          “as women, we are told not to be sexually aggressive or it will freak men out, turn them off and make them think we are easy.”

          I misunderstood the thread. I thought men wanted to be objectified or lusted after apart from what they could personally provide in terms of a relationship/marriage or financially provide in terms of having a good job and being able to support a family. I was thinking you were referring to one-nighters or short-term sexual relationships. That a man wanted to feel that a woman really desired him and thus initiated their encounter. Keep in mind, though, that a woman  aggressively coming after a man for sex could very well just want sex and not the man himself. Or she could enjoy the thrill of the chase or the fun in planning the seduction. Sometimes, that can be better than the sex itself.

          But the women who desire me, always give off the vibe of seeing me as husband material, not as someone to pull into the broom closet because I get her hot.

          Where do you live and do you have a broom closet?!  🙂

        8. GoWiththeFlow

          Adrian,

          This:  “I have a clean cut look (like I said, I resemble a young Tom Welling). . . I workout a lot so I have the square jawline and the 6 pack. . .”

          Does not not go with this:  “As far as being lusted after, No I don’t think I ever have.”

          Either you’re missing the moves women are trying to put on you, or as Nat said, they’re so impressed by your Man-Godliness that they are trying to play it perfect and not blow it 😉

        9. Caroline

          Hi Adrian- I’ve heard that women seem to be slower at initiating. I’m positive I was when my kids were young plus I’ve always worked a 40hour plus work week outside of the home. Kids can definitely put a monkey wrench to enjoying “mommy daddy time”! But honestly, it gets better as you age. More time, less interruptions, more leisurely, less inhibitions…I’m with SE -it’s more like he usually beats me to the punch. It’s rather organic how it unfolds. For us oldies, it usually starts in the kitchen- working together to prepare a meal is rather tactile. Or maybe it’s just he’s hurrying me up out of the kitchen so I can’t make him the guinea pig to my current healthy recipe. 😂

      3. 9.1.3
        ScottH

        Hi GWTF!

        As a woman, the decision of when to sleep with a guy she really likes is almost always tainted by the fear of his rejecting her if he decides she had sex with him “too soon.”    This might be many women’s fears but this guy wouldn’t see it that way if I was interested in her.  I can understand why a woman would feel that way but if he sees it that way, isn’t he the wrong guy for her?  More importantly, this guy would pay attention to how fast the relationship progresses and whether it progresses too fast (red flag).  Sex isn’t the biggest factor in indicating relationship progression (it is a factor but not the biggest).

        “Whereas “too many” sexual partners can destroy a woman’s mate value in the eyes of many.”  Whether the past matters depends on who she is now and I’d say that a colorful past can provide for a very seasoned, mature, insightful, and desirable present.  I’ve done some things in the distant past that most people would find very unsavory.  I would hope those things wouldn’t be held against me at this point in my life.  (Those things are one reason why I don’t plan on running for president because in that situation, the past is always relevant.)  Think Cheryl Strayed.  Would you want to be with a guy who devalues you because of the past even though you have grown and are awesome now?

        p.s., having ice cream now and looking forward to a peaceful slumber

        1. Emily, the original

          ScottH,

          I’ve done some things in the distant past that most people would find very unsavory.  I would hope those things wouldn’t be held against me at this point in my life.

          Not held against you, but probably something you should keep to yourself. I mean that on both sides. I don’t want a detailed, blow-by-blow description of a man’s sexual past if I am dating him, and I am certainly not giving him mine. The only thing that matters is the here and now, and who someone is presenting to you at this time.

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          ScottH,

          “This might be many women’s fears but this guy wouldn’t see it that way if I was interested in her.  I can understand why a woman would feel that way but if he sees it that way, isn’t he the wrong guy for her?”

          “Whether the past matters depends on who she is now and I’d say that a colorful past can provide for a very seasoned, mature, insightful, and desirable present.”

          Like I said in another comment above, guys don’t come with “The word slut is not in my vocabulary” stamped on their foreheads 😉  It’s something we have to figure out.  Even if I was a virgin, I wouldn’t want a man with an antiquated sexual belief system.  Luckily for us girls, there are guys like you out there.

          “p.s., having ice cream now and looking forward to a peaceful slumber”

          Sure you don’t want to engage in some exercise first to burn off all of those calories?  😉

           

           

      4. 9.1.4
        Caroline

        GWTF-I believe it was John on another post? Who actually said the same thing. He viewed women as being let’s say “more relationship material” when adhering to a more lengthy timeline in having sex.

  10. 10
    Adrian

    A question for all the mothers,

    First off, thank you everyone who contributed to answering my question.

    To be honest, it never even accrued to me that a woman would act like we men and be on her best behavior when it came to repressing sexual cravings; especially since there is so much “academic” literature that say that women don’t crave sex as men do.

    I love my parents very much, but I now realize that as I was growing up, my mom and dad gave me examples and taught me to focus on women as equals,  friends, someone’s daughter, someone to be romanced and courted, someone to be respected as mothers, or as possible future mothers, etc.

    But NEVER as sexual beings; and certainly not someone capable of having lust, or lustful thoughts.

    …   …   …

    This leads me to my question for the mothers of sons. As a woman but also as a person witnessing as well as guiding the development of a future man, how did you advise your son about women and sex?

    How did you balance what you know and felt as a women who had experiences with the opposite sex, with how you know your son’s biology and testosterone filled brain will cause to him to act toward women?

    What advice do you give to your daughters about sex and men?

    Some of Evan’s biggest critics are the women who say he is a male apologist. That men try to hide behind evolution, and biology to justify their actions toward sex and how they treat women. As a mother, how do you approach this conundrum in raising your own child?

    1. 10.1
      Crazynopetlady

      I’ve been so lucky with my son.. He got a girlfriend in high school – it got pretty serious but not sure when they went the whole way but her mum and I, were super aware and always talking to both of them about responsibilities yada, yada.  He is still with her now and will probably marry.

      I saw my brother as a young man use a poor girl who loved him and he treated her terribly.  He got a pretty severe talking to from me.  He in turn got his heart ripped out by the next girl, so I guess Karma works. He is a model husband and father now.  Not all young men are pigs.  Most – not all.  Not all young men will treat girls as mere holes.  Most, not all.  My son sees women as fellow HUMAN BEINGS not dumping grounds for his seed.

      What did I tell my daughters?  The truth.  My daughter who is in University has never had a serious boyfriend and is not interested in them.  She is highly intelligent and incredibly beautiful and I doubt most boys are smart enough for her.  I trust her to be wise when she meets boys.  I think her brother will make sure of that anyway.

      Just because boys have ‘biology and testosterone’ it doesn’t mean they will treat women badly.  It’s unfortunate that men are so violent and sexual – but we shouldn’t just accept it.  I think we should try to instil empathy in males before they hit puberty.  So many simply don’t or won’t see how destructive  and hurtful their behaviours are to their fellow humans of the opposite gender.

      That being said – if my daughter wanted to have casual sex etc. then she knows that her safety is paramount and that she needs to be careful.  She also knows I would never judge her for wanting to be a sexual being.  My kids are great at being alone.  They never had any man in their life other than their father. I never had a relationship while they were growing up in a single parent house. I never brought a man into the house.  My only relationship was over a year long and he never met my youngest child, who lives with me.  He met the other two at a restaurant, once. My kids don’t see relationships as something essential for being successful.

    2. 10.2
      GoWiththeFlow

      Hi Adrian,

      “This leads me to my question for the mothers of sons. As a woman but also as a person witnessing as well as guiding the development of a future man, how did you advise your son about women and sex?”

      First, with my oldest son, I decided that when the time came, I wouldn’t be in denial about his emerging sexuality.  The theory that some adults have that talking to teens about sex, especially about the pleasurable aspects of it, will give kids “ideas,” I find laughable.  Young people in their teens and 20s are already at maximum “idea” level.  Giving them solid biological information, as well as educating them on the social and cultural aspects of sex and sexuality (like consent, double standards, and keeping emotionally safe) is not going to make a previously disinterested 14 year old boy suddenly desirous of sex, because he’s already there!

      When I would talk to him about sex, I focused on being open-minded and nonjudgmental about his questions.  I figured he was approaching me on maybe 1 in 50 questions he actually had.  So I made sure he had good books available about sex and girls, and he dog-eared most of them (this was before the internet). I openly acknowledged that I knew he would experiment and I emphasized STD and pregnancy prevention, as well as the importance of respecting the young women he would be involved with.  Keep your mouth shut, no gossiping to the other boys.  Understand that her pleasure is more nuanced and less direct than his.  A girl may assume that if you have sex, that you will fall in love with her, and she may say she has fallen in love with you.  Always use condoms.  No means no, don’t take it too personally.  Girls have more biological and social risk to weigh when they decide to have sex, understand that.

      When he was around 14 or 15, I began to buy condoms and put them in a box in the sink vanity in his bathroom.  Once when he was in college he called me in a panic when he had symptoms of an STD.  I called in antibiotic prescriptions for him to treat the 2 most likely causes after I talked with one of my OB/GYN colleagues about it.  I wasn’t angry or upset, and I was relieved that he felt he could ask me for help with such a personal matter.  As he got into his later teens and early 20s, most of our talks about women centered more on relational issues or drama he was having with specific girls or what he liked about a particular young woman.

      My son now coaches junior high and high school football.  Recently, he said some of the boys were “trash talking” girls in the locker room after a practice.  He said he had an impromptu talk with them about a number of issues he saw.  First that the number of women a man “hits it with” doesn’t say anything about him as a man.  That each person has to decide what’s right for them and set appropriate boundaries.  Second he addressed their bragging.  He said how would you like it if someone talked your sister, your mother, or your future daughter that way?  It’s disrespectful.  Be discreet and keep what’s personal, personal.  Third he challenged their double standard.  Why does having sex make her a ho and not you?  Be happy when a woman has sex with you, don’t turn around and slap her in the face with an insult when she does.

      I plan on doing much the same thing with my younger son as he gets older, though I know I need to add in information about social media and internet porn.  In the past year I read an article on how teen boys viewing pornography has affected what they think sex should be like.  For instance, the article told the story about how a girl who was a virgin, was choked by her during her first time, because he had seen James Deen do it.  So yes, I’ll have to find a way to address that that involves more than blocking porn sites on the home internet service.

      For my daughter, I want to emphasize with her that she needs to have firm boundaries, that she isn’t just a body for a guy to get off with.  She will have needs and deserves to feel good too, and a guy who doesn’t know that isn’t worth her time.  this was a message that girls back in my day NEVER received.  I’ll also discuss with her what my mom called, “Boys will have their own agenda, stick to yours.”  It’s a version of Evan’s men look for sex and find love saying.  Except my (very catholic) mom thought my agenda should be remaining a virgin until I got married 😉  I also plan on making condoms available to my daughter, and I will strongly consider obtaining birth control for her as she enters her teens.  I’d rather her be safe than have to face unwanted pregnancy.

      “Some of Evan’s biggest critics are the women who say he is a male apologist. That men try to hide behind evolution, and biology to justify their actions toward sex and how they treat women. As a mother, how do you approach this conundrum in raising your own child?”

      Biology, socialization, and culture are so intertwined that it’s hard to separate the nature from the nurture.  I think think that as a parent you have to hit all of the targets to give your kids the help they need to grow into and accept the sexual side of themselves.

      1. 10.2.1
        LJ

        My 17 year old son is so turned off by the sexploitation and current slutwear fashions in our culture he seems turned off by girls. The emphasis on looks has him feeling despair because he is overweight but he is also very intelligent, caring and good looking. I hope he’s a late bloomer and will still have a happy healthy sex life with whoever he chooses. I am waiting to talk with him more about it later when he begins to show more interest. He knows more about sex and kinks and pervs at 17 than I did at 55. I kind of have concerns about the end of innocence coming younger and younger.

         

      2. 10.2.2
        sophia

        Late reply, sorry, but GWTF, regarding your Coach Son, wow, what a great young man! Wish my son were in that locker room to hear that discussion, he’s only 13 and looks at me as if I have 10 heads! (for the record, I only have 8…)

        Very, very impressive and I’m sure he’s a respected authority figure, so potential impression on those boys could be huge!

         

         

  11. 11
    S.

    To Adrian at 8.1.1:

    Apparently that definitely was the case  in Evan’s life.  My point it from the outside, looking in how would I know? How would the women he doesn’t marry know?  But that doesn’t really matter, does it? He knew what he wanted.  It’s not really the folks he didn’t choose, their concern anymore.

    Most people I know who wanted to be married, got married.  Now they may have married younger (early 30s) because they wanted to have and raise kids.  But Evan is unusual that it took meeting 300 individual women before finding the one. That’s a lot of people. I was just remarking that most people don’t date that number of people before finding their spouse.

    But maybe it’s a good lesson.  Maybe for some people it takes large numbers of dates and dating experience to find someone.   It takes the time it takes. For some they date ten people, for another it’s 400.  Like I said, good to know.

    What is your opinion on Evan’s podcast about overestimating ourselves and our SMV ratings? Karmic Equation always speaks on this.

    I think this isn’t an answer you can ever really know.  If you ask a former partner, their experience is going to be influenced by your time together. It’s best to ask a one-and-done date, but even they may have things that skew their perspective. Who is truly objective?

    And to what end?  Unless there is some clear  and consistent pattern why your relationships.  But sometimes it’s like one’s trash is another’s treasure.  One person you might not have any value at all, and another you have a lot.  I think as long as you have high value to the person you end up staying with that’s all that matters.  There is a lid for every pot.  Even that person whose SMV is nil, their person is out there!  I have seen it, seriously.  And that’s wonderful. So what does it matter if they initially overestimated themselves, if they eventually find that lid and they both are happy? Hey, it make take them 1,000 dates. 😉

    But if there is some consistent pattern and it bothers the person, one should look at that. Not just in dating, but in life.  And then one has to decide what they are willing (if they are willing) to do to change that pattern.

  12. 12
    Crazynopetlady

    I don’t think there is a pot for every lid.  I think many many people die without ever having married or meeting the one.  My aunt being one of them.  I have never met the one – I thought I did but I didn’t.  I can’t see myself meeting the one and if I have to go on over 300 dates to get there, then I’d rather be alone.  300 is way too many.

    I think being realistic and realising you are either going to have to settle badly (I won’t) or you will remain alone (I will) is something everybody needs to come to terms with at some point in their lives.  I know many single women in their 60s – never married, no children.  Or they have children but are growing old alone.  They are pretty cynical about what is out there and the married ones that age aren’t happy.  I have been in love (or lust) it’s hard to tell the difference and he professed the same for me, I was in love with a figment of my own imagination, I think.  I can’t go through that again.  I accept I choose badly and so I have decided to stop choosing.  I’ve tried to date nice guys whom I’m not attracted to and I can’t make myself go there and it’s also unfair on them.  They deserve someone who finds them attractive.

     

     

    1. 12.1
      LJ

      @ Crazynopetlady — being 60+ and single is not easy. It seems to be very complicated to me and the hardest time of life to find a man that is interested in a woman of the same age. So many men between 55-65 want someone 20 or 30 years younger. Or even 5 years younger. I don’t particularly want to date someone more than a couple of years older than myself but although that is my preference, online dating is just not working for me and I am beginning to understand the complicated reasons. As Evan said in one of his podcasts, the rules have changed. The roles have changed. I would like to add here that women’s lib liberated men and not women. Women do more work and have more responsibilities than ever (read the research I’m not making this up.) I was married more than 20 years then had a wonderful 8 year relationship with the love of my life. We were in our 50s and had sex daily or more frequently at times. I also disagree with some of these blog posts that assert that men have a stronger sex drive than women do or want sex more often. The women I know do not think this. There is a lot of misinformation about sexual behavior and there are strong media messages that sex is for the young. Sex, like youth, is wasted on the young. LOL

       

    2. 12.2
      S.

      I do believe there is a lid for every pot.  Now, whether we find our lids in our lifetime? That’s a different thing.  But I hear you.  It take a certain amount of resilience and wherewithal to keep dating and look for one’s person.  I take breaks from time to time.

      I think being realistic and realising you are either going to have to settle badly (I won’t) or you will remain alone (I will) is something everybody needs to come to terms with at some point in their lives.

      It’s a difficult thing.  Sometimes it takes a very long time.  Some people make the wrong choices. And sometimes despite one’s best efforts, they don’t find their person.  But I always tell myself if I stop looking, then I really won’t find my lid. 🙂

      I was listening to Evan’s podcast with Katherine Woodward Thomas from Calling in the One.  It’s a lot to unpack, because listening to her challenged me on thinking about the narrative I’ve told myself about love.  I used to have a deadline (she had one) because like you, I know I’m not going on 300 dates.  That’s a narrative too, but it’s a true one!  But if I’m not going to meet with that many people, then how many am I willing to meet?  And they’d have to be quality people since the quantity will be lower.  So I’m starting to go out more to activities I’m really passionate about. And it makes me satisfied whether I meet a man there or not.

      Intentions and internal narratives are important. If I say, I’m never going to meet him, I really won’t.  Even if I do meet him, it won’t happen.  So I’m challenging myself on some of my long-held narratives.  What compromises can I live with?  How can I improve in communication with me? What stuff from the past is affecting me now?

      The last is easier because I’ve processed most of that.  Now I have to be more proactive. Not about asking men out, but more proactive about being happy, getting out of the house, being positive, and just loving men in general.  I try to beam that out. 🙂 And I’ve made some great male friends as a result.  I learn a lot about men from men in real life.

      I was worried about growing older alone.  But you know what? Even if I don’t find my lid, I won’t be alone. I have so much love in my life already.  It’s not all about romantic love.  And I’m so content and happy.  It’s a good life.   And I do believe will find him.  He won’t look as I imagine.  It may or may not be on my timeline.  But I’ll meet him.  It’s going to be great!

      I hope it for everyone, you too, Crazynopetlady.  But it’s such an internal process and everyone is different.  We are all on our own path and if you choose to stop choosing, then I hope you find other ways to be happy.

       

      1. 12.2.1
        S.

        Ah, it should have read, ‘how can I improve communication with men?’  I need to hit the snooze button more often! 🙂

  13. 13
    jeremy

    Adrian, regarding men not feeling that women lust after them  – I think several good points have already been raised about this, but there is also another factor at play which has not been mentioned.  There tends to be a sharp divide between what members of each gender believe passion should look like, based on their fantasies of passion.

     

    The typical female fantasy of passion (as demonstrated by largely female-consumed romance novels)  looks something like this:  High-quality man pursues woman who is interested in him and finds him attractive, yet resists his advances due to some reservation of her own – whether because of another man, cultural inhibitions, social inhibitions, etc.  Man persists and pursues her, and the depth and fervor of his passion allows her to finally unlock her own passion and overcome her inhibitions, leading to an explosive inter-twining of body, mind, and soul.  The theme of this fantasy: “joyful succumbing.”

     

    There is nothing wrong with this fantasy, per se, except that it results in 2 interesting corollaries:  1) Women who harbor this fantasy perceive that they should demonstrate passion for a man by allowing him to pursue, and being receptive to that pursuit (eventually).  2) Women who fantasize about adopting the female role in this fantasy often believe that men fantasize about adopting the male role.  They therefore believe that if a man likes them enough, he will WANT to demonstrate it by pursuing her and helping her overcome her inhibitions patiently – which will not only demonstrate his passion for her, but also build upon it.  What they often fail to realize is that men, by and large, do not share this fantasy.

     

    The typical male fantasy (as demonstrated by largely male-consumed porn) involves a total LACK of pursuit!  In porn, the man shows up and the woman is already horny for him.  He does not have to risk rejection because SHE makes all the first moves.  He does not have to suffer performance anxiety because everything he does gives her an orgasm, and she has several before he takes his own pleasure.  The theme of this fantasy: “effortless acceptance/success.”

     

    The corollary of this fantasy is that men often believe that a woman who is passionate about them will not NEED him to pursue (and the greater her passion, the more likely that SHE will be the one to pull him into the broom closet, as you put it).  And the reverse is also true – that the more she wants him to pursue, the LESS passionate about him she feels (hence my comment above of why men often feel that women value their one night stands more than the men they want to marry).

     

    The male and female fantasies are, in a sense, OPPOSITE to each other and engender very different expectations of what passion should look like.  To a woman, passion looks like a man pursuing her, and herself surrendering.  To a man, passion looks like a woman who doesn’t need him to pursue!  It isn’t just about different languages for communicating desire (overt vs. covert), it is also about different content!

     

    Historically (and even in contemporary society), men are encouraged to give women their fantasy and adopt the male role of the persistent pursuer.  They are encouraged to court women, to protect, provide, plan, persist, etc, while women are encouraged to be receptive.  Meanwhile, women are not encouraged to fulfill their role in male fantasy.  In fact, many commenters on this site became indignant when I (at one point) suggested that they initiate a kiss after the first date.  “Women are not comfortable doing that,” they replied, “it makes them feel too masculine. ”  Well, no WONDER men are not perceiving women to be passionate!

     

    IMHO, men need to occasionally fulfill their role in female fantasy.  Women like it and it makes them feel passionate.  But equally, I think that women need to understand male fantasy and occasionally fulfill their role in it.  THAT is the only reciprocation that men desire for their courtship, and it is usually the lack of that reciprocation that leaves men feeling that passion is lacking in their relationships.

    1. 13.1
      S.

      To Jeremy replying to me at 8.2.3:

      I think I finally understand what you’ve been saying. Whether you say a man provides or I say it’s what he is, we both mean what he’s bringing to the relationship.  The stuff inside that is important to me and most women.

      So here are two things.  One is that women do think about sex a lot. A lot. A lot.  Of course they fantasize about the man they are having sex with.  In my personal experience it’s not that the men I know don’t want to know that I fantasize about them, it’s just they aren’t much for talking about it as much as they are doing it. 🙂 Which if I’m fantasizing about them and am in a relationship with them is usually fine with me.  It usually seems the biggest way to tell a man he’s your fantasy sex god is to actually have sex with him, often. 🙂 If my experience with this is unique, others will chime in.  This goes for beta men too.

      Second thing:  for me and maybe most women, it’s hard to separate the two.  Some women can, but it’s not easy for most women.  So if we’re having good sex and he’s my fantasy sex god, it’s not difficult to imagine him being great at other things.  Maybe he would make a great dad, or maybe he’d love helping around the house, as you suggested.  The idea that he would makes him even more a fantasy sex god. Imagining he might not, takes away a bit of that attraction. I know for me it’s hard to stay strongly attracted to someone whose character traits or what he brings to the table aren’t things I want or respect. I think many men can keep sex and sex fantasies in a separate box altogether.  A lot of women do not.

      In closing, I think any man in a happy relationship should feel the woman he’s with is strongly attracted to him and thinks about sex with him frequently.  And vice versa.  But I also think along with thinking that, it opens the door to the room of a woman wanting more. And that possible dissatisfaction, particularly during a hookup, is what Evan is cautioning women about in this blog post.

  14. 14
    Poly

    I don’t agree with the part where you say women only have sex if they see a future for the relationship. I have sex with people I want, not everyone I met, not every guy I talk and go on a date. I’m ok with sleeping with a guy for weeks or months without wanting him to be my boyfriend. I don’t close myself to meet the “right” guy while I’m dating the “wrong” one. After reading your blog and newsletters for years, I learned to identify better what works for me or not. And as I search for the guy for a commitment, I also identify nice guys to have fun, but that I know are not right for me. I don’t hurt them, I don’t feel bad the day after (on the contrary), I don’t suffer if they “ghost out”. When I didn’t knew what I wanted in a relationship, I could fall for guys like that, I could spend months dating someone without feelings… now I know this is not what I want for my life, but it doesn’t mean I can’t have some fun on weekends with a guy….

  15. 15
    Denise Barry

    Brilliant insight.. honest and straight forward..kind of hard to hear.. : ))

  16. 16
    Kat

    I did laugh when by only 19 you were already making up for lost time, lol.

    No judgement, been there did that but when you said that seemed indicitive of the entire conversation you are having with us.

     

    Smile,  Kat

  17. 17
    Kat

    Let me please say as well that your frankness is wonderful.

    In answer to your question. I hate the hooker-up culture. We seen to be a society you cares very little about disparaging one another.

    I often say that women no longer have any filters around them to protect and help them. I think about the scene from, “The Godfather” where Michael is on a walk/date with is soon to be wife and every woman in the family is on the walk as well.

    Ladies there use to be filters all around us, but Mark is so very right. You need to be your filter. You don’t have to “be” worthy because you “are” worthy. So grab yourselves by your own balls, the ones on the bottom of your feet, then walk straight out the door. You have to ask yourself repeatedly why am I here, what do I want? If you do you will find it.

    Thanks I love your presentations!

     

    Smile,  Kat………………….

     

  18. 18
    AMY

    I can’t stand hook up culture.  My current boyfriend has slept with half the town.  I recently realized this, and he still hangs out with and chats with these young hot women.  He now expects me to trust him to go out drinking where any bar he enters has a one night or summer fling, and he routinely hangs out with these girls who sort of trail desperately after him.  I guess what I actually can’t stand is promiscuity and perhaps need to revisit my relationship status.

    1. 18.1
      Lorn

      I just ended a relationship with a guy like this only he was a co-worker. My only advice is to assess what you will and won’t put up with in a partner.

      Personally, men like this aren’t worth the time. Best to you!

  19. 19
    Leah

    S is every sane woman’s dream man and pretty girls are never insane 😊

     

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