How Do I Make Sense of All The Different Dating Advice Out There?

How Do I Make Sense of All The Different Dating Advice Out There?

Evan, I have been reading a lot of different dating advice websites, especially the ones written for MEN. I have noticed a trend in telling men to get the women to chase THEM. (Ask Men is one example) I see a lot of advice to women about why men disappear, what to do when they disappear, etc., but it seems that men are being COACHED to disappear, as a power play, a way to get the upper hand, and to get the woman to chase THEM. So if women are being coached to play hard to get, and men are playing the same game, what does this mean for male/female relationships?

In this incarnation of my dating life I have decided that I am not going to chase men. (In my younger days I admit that I did, and no good ever came of it.) This time around I absolutely I will not chase men, nor be baited into chasing one. (Yes, men are advised to bait, hook, and then ignore a woman, to get her to do the chasing). BTW, I am not a “rules” girl, I read that book, and feel dumber for having read it. I do want a man to pursue me, but when he does, I will be increasingly receptive to him, and once a relationship has been established, I won’t mind taking the initiative when appropriate. I won’t wait 2 days to return his calls, or only see him 2 times a week, or play all the mysterious stuff that Rules promotes. (They call it mysterious, but I call it secretive & evasive.)

So while I am not a hardcore Rules girl, I am a little old fashioned and want a man to pursue me, not hand me his business card and expect me to call him. Or e-mail me endlessly on Match.com but never ask to meet me face to face. What do you think of the role reversal being promoted by sites such as Ask Men (they call it “The System”) Do you think many men are following that advice ? –S.E.

Hoo boy. I’m not sure where to begin.

I would guess you’d be more interested in how you can understand and land the confident, successful, happily married guy, as opposed to the weak, insecure, jealous, inexperienced guy.

I guess I’ll start with how I give dating advice, and how I think it’s different than many of the other sources out there.

Like many people, my perspective has been shaped by my own experience. However, unlike many people, I had a few unique things going for me.

1) I come from a happy and highly functional nuclear family, so I not only had a model of the kind of marriage I wanted, but I strove to emulate it. Many people who give advice come from broken homes, abusive relationships and unfortunate backgrounds, none of which are a crime. But I think my past is a strength, inasmuch as I have a very healthy outlook on marriage.

2) I am – at the risk of immodesty – very confident and flirtatious. Let’s just say I had considerable practice in online dating, dating and relationships. Many people who give dating advice have been married for 30 years and don’t know anything about dating. Many others (think pick-up artists) came to do so because they are shy, awkward and insecure. But unless you want to attract a guy like that, why would you care what such men think?

3) I am married and in an incredible relationship because I followed my own advice. And I would guess you’d be more interested in how you can understand and land the confident, successful, happily married guy, as opposed to the weak, insecure, jealous, inexperienced guy. Then again, I could be wrong. I’m always willing to risk being wrong by having opinions. What kind of coach would I be if I didn’t have opinions?

4) I’m not afraid to stand on principle. Other coaches are marketers – their only desire is to a) pray that you like them and b) convince you to buy their products. My loyalty is not to my own biases or my own bottom line, but to the truth. I don’t view the world based on how I’d LIKE it to be; I pay attention to how it IS and advise on how you can best react to reality.

And very often, reality isn’t pretty. Would I rather tell you the truth or validate your worldview so that you don’t shoot the messenger?

The answer should be obvious.

Real men don’t play games, use power plays, or try to get the woman to chase them.

People come here because they expect to be told the truth, rather than some rah-rah “all women are goddesses” bullshit that I don’t believe and I don’t expect you to believe.

Unless you believe the equivalent bullshit that “all men are noble studs”.

Which, of course, they’re not.

Now that I’m done tooting my own horn, let’s refocus on the advice you’ve chosen to cite, from AskMen.com

I just went to Alexa to check out the site’s demographics. What did I discover?

The target audience for AskMen is men 18-24, men without children, and men who live at home or are in school. When I clicked to see their income, most of these men didn’t even HAVE income. Compare that to Esquire readers, the majority of whom make six figures. Which kind of man are you looking for, S.E.?

Basically, I’m asking you what difference it makes if a website for boys is giving those boys advice that will work on insecure teenaged girls with low self-esteem?

That’s right. It doesn’t. Real men don’t read AskMen.com.

Just as real men don’t play games, use power plays, or try to get the woman to chase them. This is run-of-the-mill pick-up artist advice for awkward teens, not advice that 40-year-old men and women are expected to utilize.

From this paragraph, it sounds to me like you know what you’re doing:

I do want a man to pursue me, but when he does, I will be increasingly receptive to him, and once a relationship has been established, I won’t mind taking the initiative when appropriate. I won’t wait 2 days to return his calls, or only see him 2 times a week, or play all the mysterious stuff that Rules promotes.

And if you know what you’re doing, it doesn’t impact you one iota if some guy is running a game on you. Guys who play games just eliminate themselves from dating confident, secure women. Right, S.E.?

At the end of the day, whether it’s a man playing games or a woman playing games, one thing is for sure: everybody ends up losing.

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Comments:

  1. 91
    GreatGal

    Rose, Evan,
    So let me get this right. If I have been dating a guy I liked for (let’s say) a month, about 8 dates), I still am not to ask him out to a movie that I’d like to see because that would mean I was ‘leading’ and (according to Rose) I want a FWB relationship?  Because then I would be emitting masculine energy? So Evan, at what point could a girl suggest an activity to her date/her guy?  When is it appropriate?  I’m all ears. 
    Wow!  If what you both say are true, then I sure have been pursuing hard from my guys’ point of view. 
    How about this scenerio.  A guy I have been seeing for a few months invites me to his birthday party at local bar.  We talk casually, I mention that I am excited to see a particular movie, he says he likes to see it, we should do it together.  I mention I will be going on a harbour cruise, he asks me when and says he’s coming as well. I have not invited him, I was just talking about myself.  Does that sound like an invite to guys’ ears?
    BTW,  when I followed up a couple of days later to see if we can match schedules for the movie, he gave me the ‘I’ll see how my schedule is’ then never heard back from him.  From my point of view, very mixed messages since I wasn’t inviting him in the first place, he invited himself.  But I get that he just wasn’t that interested, which is OK because I see it now and am OK with knowing that.
    Sometimes men are such a mystery!

    1. 91.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      @GreatGal: “If I have been dating a guy I liked for (let’s say) a month, about 8 dates), I still am not to ask him out to a movie that I’d like to see because that would mean I was ‘leading’ and (according to Rose) I want a FWB relationship? Because then I would be emitting masculine energy? So Evan, at what point could a girl suggest an activity to her date/her guy? When is it appropriate?”

      Listen, you can ask a guy out to a movie if you want. But it will usually not help you get a commitment. That’s generally his decision. So my question to you is why you’ve gone out with a guy 8 times in a month and he still hasn’t committed to being your boyfriend. Because once he’s your boyfriend, you can throw some of this receptive feminine stuff out the window. The point of not doing anything is to see if he’s motivated to commit to you. If he’s interested in committing, he’ll do so by his own accord because he’s attracted to you, has fun with you, enjoys your company and thinks that you’re worth exclusivity. He makes this decision on how he feels with you, not based on whether you procured him concert tickets.

      Seems to me that you’re way too content “seeing” guys for months at a time without commitment – all the while, taking on the masculine role of initiating plans. Perhaps you’d be better letting a guy do all the initiating during early phases of courtship, and, if he hasn’t stepped up to commit in 6-8 weeks, breaking off with him because you want a boyfriend, not a once a week guy. If a guy DOES become your boyfriend, he earns the right receive your efforts as well. You’ve just been giving too much, with too little reward.

      Men win women over by giving. Men are attracted to women who receive. Try it out. I think you’ll like it.

  2. 92
    Amelia2.0

    Although I agree that the man ought to take the lead while dating a lady, I can understand where he would not prefer to feel like he is blindly improvising a complex mating dance where one false move gets him devoured.  I know how unsettling it can be to go on a fantastic date with someone only to hear dead silence afterward.  It can take the wind right out of your sails.  That is often what dating is like for women.  For that reason, I see the benefit in wanting a lady to give even something as simple as an unprompted “Had a wonderful time.  Hope to see you again soon,” that acknowledges his efforts yet gracefully puts the ball back in his court.
     
    That being said, my boyfriend never made me wonder by waiting for me to call or text him while we were dating.  He acted like it was a forgone conclusion that I would accept his drinks, his calls, his dates, his picking up the bill, his driving us around ALL of the damn time.  I almost went fire-breathing batty as I have an egalitarian outlook and was definitely willing and prepared to meet him halfway, but he would have NONE of it.  Although I felt pretty humbled when I realized it, I was in truth totally flattered and impressed by his committment to a courtship that was so stinkingly textbook (and exactly the strategy EMK advocates, hey go figure).  I still mentally shake my fist at him for it.
     
    Granted, the courtship is only half the battle.  In addition to being fun, he always brought his warm self to the table, was emotionally present, and was respectful to me at all times.  I did the same.  Obviously courtship etiquette means bupkis if you’re not enjoying one another’s presence.

  3. 93
    GreatGal

    Sorry for the double post Evan, I’d just like to address Karmic77.
    My point in asking my dates out (after getting to know them for awhile, say a month or two), is not to show ‘confidence’ per se. It’s to show I am interested in him.  I don’t sleep with them on Date 3 or even Date 6. How much do you know a person, really, at Date 3??  Just enough to know if you have attraction.  I don’t sleep with people based solely on attraction – not a winning strategy for me.  I like to take my time and really know a person first.
     If I like them, I’d like to show my interest by asking to see them sometimes (after a month or two). Not everytime, but from time to time or every second date.  If I find they are not reciprocating or declining without counter-offers I know they are no longer interested (that may be because of a number of factors).
    Thank you to the guys here for talking candidly about how online dating is for you.  Most people multiple date and even guys and girls who are looking for loving long term relationships will want to gauge the interest level of their dates.  No difference between the genders there.  What Evan posits is that if guys just assume all girls like them and ask anyway, then they will know if the girls are interested in them. However, not all guys think that way.  Some guys don’t automatically assume.  If one was to date me for example, not kissing at first date, maybe not even fooling around on second date, the guy might think I am not interested in him at all but in fact, I am – but just don’t want to fool around with a near-complete stranger.  Call me old-fashioned.

  4. 94
    Morris

    I’m starting to think many of you are over analyzing this. There are many different men and women. Some will respond well to doing all the pursuing and others won’t. Read the situation. Trust your instinct. But don’t play games of I’ll let him pursue me no matter what. Don’t expect things to just fall into your lap… or do but don’t complain about what ends up in your lap. :)

  5. 95
    Karmic Equation

    @GreatGal 107

    If you’ve known the guy for a month or two and he’s not contacting YOU regularly to see you, your showing interest isn’t necessarily going to make him MORE interested in you. A man who’s like you and is sincerely interested in you will contact you regularly to schedule the next date. There’s no reason when he DOES call YOU that you can’t then say, “Hey, So glad you called, I was thinking about you. How about if we go to this movie I’ve been dying to see?” You can show interest once he contacts you.

    But I personally think (because I’ve caught myself feeling this way) — that when I want to contact a man, it’s because I “need” him to know I’m interested or somehow I’m going to die if I don’t talk to him just to see if he’s thinking about ME. But you know what? When you initiate contact under those circumstances, you NEVER will know if he’s thinking about you. Contacting him when you’re feeling that way comes from neediness and our strange women’s way of showing a guy we are “nice”…and you rationalize it by saying “I want to show him I’m interested” or “I don’t want to play games” — but you’re not really coming across the way you think you are.

    What I’ve learned to do is that UNTIL a man contacts me regularly (2-3 times per week), I DO NOT initiate contact. I’ve literally made myself put my phone down and go take a nap (like at 6pm) so that I would NOT text or call the guy I’m crazy about. And each time, they’ve contacted me that same evening. We didn’t go out that night, but we had a nice conversation. That was enough stave off the craving.

    It was EXTREMELY difficult to exert that kind of self-control, but it pays off because instead of WONDERING if the guy is thinking about you, you KNOW he was because when a guy likes you and thinks about you, he has just as difficult a time not contacting you as you him. Simple.

    @Selena 86

    Great post! Agreed 100%.

    @Dean 98

    Mostly guy-game is about being confident. If PUA techniques helps your confidence, there’s nothing wrong with that. However, it’s likely your CONFIDENCE that’s improved your outcomes rather than not paying as much for your dates.

    I think the fallacy is your former thinking that impressing a woman at a fancy restaurant or fancy dates is what’s going to get you laid. No, women are impressed by confidence, authenticity, and honesty. Might you have become more of the three after learning the male playbook?

    And perhaps you are now more astute at finding women who like the new authentic, confident you and hence more success followed. You’re right that a woman who’s into you will screw your brains out whether or not you spend money on her. Unless you were dating the wrong kind of women, the ticket to most women’s bedrooms is not how much MONEY you invest in them, but how much of YOURSELF you invest in them.

  6. 96
    Selena

    Hi GreatGal.
     
    When I read your posts I thought, “I wouldn’t have a problem suggesting a movie, or a restaurant after month. Certainly not after 2 mos. because by then typically we’d already be a couple.” But in my relationships that went beyond casual we were seeing each other at least 3 times a week after a month. I/we had a comfort level established. Maybe you move slower in relationships?
     
    Give serious consideration to what Evan wrote. Do you want more than a once-a-week guy?
     
    I’ve also been where Karmic describes in #105. If I was high on infatuation with someone new it could be really hard not to pick up the phone if I hadn’t heard from him that day. I’d rationalize it: “Hey, it’s _______(pick a year) it’s okay for women to call men!” And my internal voice would say, “Don’t do it! He might start thinking you are clingy, or worse, pushy- that’s not you!” To make myself NOT call, I’d often call a girlfriend instead. Sometimes the guy did call, sometimes he didn’t. Eventually I learned a guy who doesn’t call regularly is a guy who isn’t that interested. Would have taken longer to figure that out if I didn’t listen to my inner voice and insisted on doing the proactive/ co-courting approach instead.
     
     
     
     

  7. 97
    K

    I feel more confused from reading these comments.  I feel like a lot of women are agreeing with Evan’s advice (as I do and generally I have followed his advice even before I found this site). But it seems like a lot of the men are disagreeing. 

    1. 97.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      K – The men who are disagreeing are nice guys who (if I’m going to go out on a limb) lack a little bit of confidence with women. Confident guys assume that you’re going to like them. They have no doubt that they’re going to get a second date, a good night kiss, and more. Those men are often the men that women desire the most. And I can say, definitively, that a confident man chooses his partner; he doesn’t sit back and wait to be chosen.

      It’s not that my dissenters are “wrong”. They’re doing what they feel works best for them. Somewhat more objectively, I would tell those men to always call, always pay, and always assume the answer is YES. They will get much better results with women that way, as opposed to assuming that if a woman doesn’t call, she’s not into him.

  8. 98
    K

    Thanks Evan that makes sense.  In reality all of my real relationships resulted from men who pursued me, called me every night and never wondered if I wanted them to (or at least didn’t show that concern).  I know women who like to be more in charge in dating and in a relationship and I think pursuing works for them because they get the type of man they want.  As I like men who lead more it makes sense to be more receptive and work on my feminine behavior.  I have a tough job/exterior, but I’m very feminine based on how I was raised so I may need to work on showing that more initially.

  9. 99
    Morris

    @k #107 – my takeaway would be that times are changing.  If all men/women aren’t the same you can’t have one approach to dating.  Should the man do most of the pursuing?  I think so.  But a little help depending on the situation could prove to be a boon as well.
     
    @EMK #108 – I’m not sure I agree.  It seems you are implying you want beta men to be alpha men.  It might work to get a date but eventually the beta comes back. The advice also tells women to wait for an alpha.  Again that doesn’t seem like good advice.  There are only so many alpha’s to go around so the math simply wouldn’t add up.
     
    Should beta men go out of their comfort zone a bit.  Yeah, I think that would help. But women should also go out of their comfort zone as well.  Maybe if the women is dating a beta she should be more willing to pursue.  And if she is dating an alpha she can sit back a bit more.  Wouldn’t that be more realistic instead of trying to have one dating strategy for both? 

    1. 99.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      @Morris “Maybe if the woman is dating a beta she should be more willing to pursue. And if she is dating an alpha she can sit back a bit more. Wouldn’t that be more realistic instead of trying to have one dating strategy for both?”

      The nature of giving advice is that there are always going to be exceptions. The people to whom those exceptions apply will be very vocal in insisting that my advice doesn’t work or doesn’t apply to them. Fair enough. I simply don’t have time to tell every single individual what to do in every single individual situation. So I generalize.

      In general, beta men would do BETTER if they were to adopt the behaviors of ALPHA men. They can say that they’re completely fixed and static, but they’re not. Dean’s posts about pick-up artist advice is proof positive that guys can learn how to improve their games and appeal to more women. My advice is generally about teaching alpha women to become more feminine, open, fun, playful, supportive and trusting. These are qualities that men value more than advanced degrees, real estate empires, and impressive resumes.

      Are there women who WANT beta men? Sure. Are there men who WANT alpha women? Sure. But there’s less of both. So I give advice on how everyone can come towards the center – beta men can learn from alpha men, and alpha women can learn from beta women. Make a little more sense now?

  10. 100
    Dean

    Karmic Equation @105
    However, it’s likely your CONFIDENCE that’s improved your outcomes rather than not paying as much for your dates.
    I doubt it. Out of pure necessity, during winter months I am limited to what I can do, so drinks and dinners are most common. And what happened during those drinks/dinners? I got the same amount of action as when it was warmer weather and I could do things for a quarter of the price. No more and no less.
     
    So once again wineing dining didn’t get me relationships or sex any more or less as going to a duck pond with a walk around an arboretum or mini golf or rollerblade or a walk in Manhattan on The High Line. All those things cost virtually nothing, yet I can convert those dates into good outcomes. It isn’t because of any more or less confidence. Its about return on investment. If the girls didn’t sleep with me or want to date me after those dates I lost nothing. But in the winter it cost me a lot if I got nothing out of it. If the girls did hook up with me with the restaurant/dinner dates then the cost per lay was much higher.
     
    Maybe I said it previously in a confusing way. It isn’t so much as if I will get action. Its a matter of how much will that action will cost me. And the cheap dates if done right, will cost a hell of a lot less for the same action. Much better return on investment. Now it may sound unromantic when you think about cost per lay, but from a guys perspective, this is important data. Repulsive to ladies I know. But a Godsend to the guys.
    And your defense might be “Well I wouldn’t spend time with a guy if he only did cheap dates”. And that would be fine with me. Why? Because it cost me nothing to learn that about you. If a girl is into me, as long as I do SOMETHING (whether dinner/drinks or a walk on The High Line) then I will get what I am looking for.
     
    I agree it doesn’t sound romantic. But remember Evans mantra “Guys look for sex and find love”. So what better way to find love than to increase your sex? The problem is cost. With the PUA way I discovered, I can go out with 5 girls for the price of 1 traditional date. Since I am not wealthy, I have to maximize my resources.  So now do you see FROM A GUYS POINT OF VIEW why this works? From a woman’s point of view I can see how cost per lay would be offensive.  But the ladies just think I am being creative since none of them ever did The High Line, or a duck pond feeding with awesome botanical gardens and rollerblading. They think I am creative. But I am really being economical. This is what the PUA made me realize. Forget the fancy dinners and drinks. You can get a girlfriend or get sex from spending very little. And that goes way against the grain of traditional  dating advice gurus.  Capice?
     

  11. 101
    Morris

    @EMK #112 – “My advice is generally about teaching alpha women to become more feminine, open, fun, playful, supportive and trusting. These are qualities that men value more than advanced degrees, real estate empires, and impressive resumes.”
     
    Thank you.  I haven’t been participating on this forum for all that long but I should have picked up on that.  Makes much more sense now.

  12. 102
    K

    @Morris point well taken.  I tend to prefer men more on the alpha spectrum so Evan’s general guidance probably suits me best.  However, I think I get your point that I don’t need to rigidly apply any rules.  When I like a guy and he’s is doing a lot of pursuing I think it’s fine to surprisingly initiate a little, text, etc.  However it in my experience works best if my effort is less (more receptive) than his and he is leading. 
    @Dean I have always sort of been suspicious when a guy plans “creative” free outings and your comment makes me feel like I was right that he was just being cheap (at least after the initial meet up).

  13. 103
    marymary

    Boyfriend is alpha in some situations. He’s a good public speaker and performer, sporty, with lots of friends of both sexes. He could also kill someone with his bare hands but thankfully that’s not been necessary. 
    However, he’s not alpha around women he’s interested in romantically. If I had met him online and had nothing else to go on, I might very well have seen the lack of drive as lack of interest. We were moving in the same circles so were constantly in each other’s faces without having to set up dates. Certainly, though, from when we did actually start dating he’s been open, faithful, honest and well intentioned. Those things don’t necessarily correlate with being good at dating but I guess you have to date to find out if that’s on the table.  And that’s where the advice is helpful, especially online where you’re not meeting people via friends, church, work etc. You’re much more on your own and it’s not as organic.  If there are techniques that work, it would be good to know them.  
    Evan at 104 “Men win women over by giving”.  Yep, even though the boyfriend is somewhat of an exception to the “typical” man, he’s not THAT exceptional. He enjoys treating me, helping me with practical stuff,  looking after me when I’m sick, gives emotional support, and generally likes feeling needed in a non-crazy way. If they aren’t doing that, they’re not that bothered. He did take the lead in that area, he was braver than I was.

  14. 104
    Rose

    GreatGal 100
    “Rose, Evan,
    So let me get this right. If I have been dating a guy I liked for (let’s say) a month, about 8 dates), I still am not to ask him out to a movie that I’d like to see because that would mean I was ‘leading’ and (according to Rose) I want a FWB relationship?  Because then I would be emitting masculine energy? ”
    I didn’t mean to give that impression that I thought that is what you wanted. There are women out there who say they want this are cool about it and are happy with this. Most IMO are just pretending and are not cool with this and some the rare few do want this and are cool with it.
    It doesn’t appear that is what you want GreatGal, what I believe is by doing what you do  is that is what the MAN will believe you are ok with so that is what you will get and he is he isn’t taking the lead he will be more than happy with it. Leaving you wanting more, not a good place to be.
    Only you deep down know what you really want.
    Friendship?
    FWB?
    Boyfriend?
    Live in lover?
    Life partner?
    Marriage?
    What do you want?
    Then it becomes if you want along term realtionship that leads to marriage or life partner.Do you want to be the one pursuing, leading, initiating and asking the man to marry you?
    Or do you want to be pursued by a masculine energy man who wants to and is able to do and lead a realtionship who if things go well asks you to marry him or live with him?
    It’s all about finding what you want and then getting the right match for you who wants the same. If you want the latter, being the pursuer or taking it in turns to pursue and lead will not get you what you want.
     
     

  15. 105
    Karmic Equation

    @Dean 111

    I think your cause and effect need to re-examined a bit.

    Maybe instead of dating during the winter, you should only date during the summer, because, yes, indoor activities typically cost more than outdoor activities.

    Or maybe women are more hot to trot in the summer than in the winter, particularly when they feel good that they’re looking good in their beachwear, as opposed to winter when they pack on a little extra.

    If seasons factor into it, then I’m not really sure your money argument holds water. But perception is everything. So if you perceive that it that way, then nothing logical I may say against that will change your mind.

    On the whole, I do understand where you’re coming from. But rather than offended I feel a little sad for you that you have taken something that could be special and turned it into an ROI analysis which, for the most part, leaves you less likely to be in an emotionally welcoming place to have a healthy relationship.

    Since “good feelings” are subjective and tough to measure and “sex” is objective and easy to measure, placing a dollar value on how much money you spend to get laid demeans your dating to all about whether or not you get sex. I mean this kind of analysis almost tells you the best ROI would be to find a hooker. You’ll get laid without putting in any effort at all.

    So while dating thus may be the best “value” for your wallet, it de-values what dating is all about.

    I say this because I’m one of the few women who consistently dates men who makes less than she does. Through no fault of mine or my men, they lost their jobs while I was either married to them or dating them, which left me the one bringing home the bacon or treating them if I wanted to go out, which I do a lot. I can’t even begin to quantify the amount of money I’ve spent thus and I wouldn’t have to or want to, because ultimately, love is priceless. And I don’t blink an eye on the money I spent/spend when I go out, whether or not I get a “relationship” out of those dates. The man’s company and the opportunity to get to know him better is what I’m paying for. So if I choose wisely, that’s money well spent, no matter the outcome.

  16. 106
    Dean

    Karmic 117
    I mean this kind of analysis almost tells you the best ROI would be to find a hooker. You’ll get laid without putting in any effort at all.
    So while dating thus may be the best “value” for your wallet, it de-values what dating is all about.
     
    We will have to agree to disagree on this one. Dating a hooker has awful ROI. I guess you don’t understand cost benefit analysis. The goal is to pay as little as possible for sex. I don’t think hookers are free.
     
    Devaluing dating? Which romcom did you get that from? For some people, dating is just a means to have a good time and have sex. Nothing more. Sorry to break it to you. Does dating have to lead to pure romance? Heck no. For many guys, dating is a way to get sex and have fun. And this is where Evan helps ladies in figuring out what qualities good men have to separate the relationship minded ones from the dating as a sport ones. And that’s cool. So because a relationship doesn’t fit your definition of how it should look, it gets slapped as “unhealthy”? Please.  If both people are happy having an inexpensive night out and then a roll in the hay, that’s pretty healthy to me if both are content with it. Just because you don’t operate that way doesn’t mean it is unhealthy for those that do.

  17. 107
    John

    Funny how Evan and others are talking about how alpha male definition is one that has confidence and pursues a girl. But from the book “The Alpha Rules” here is an excerpt:
    1.Women love men who present a challenge.

    2.Women are fascinated by men who are “in demand” and obviously have other romantic/sexual options. Women, by nature, are jealous and competitive when it comes to men. Give her the sense that she’ll have to step up and WIN you away from other women, and the game is on!.
     
    Is it any wonder why there is so much confusion about alpha male roles and theories? Evan and others classify alpha as a guy who has confidence and  pursues women. Another book says to do the opposite and let the women essentially fight over each other which is what I was doing. So who is right? If nobody can even agree on a definition then how can anyone even agree on the best tactic?

    1. 107.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      EXCELLENT point, John. Here’s how I resolve it.

      If you want a high-value woman, you don’t try to convince her to win YOU over. High-value women don’t chase. They’re not desperate or needy. They know what they’re worth. They can have any man on the planet. You make an effort, they can be yours. You don’t, you have no chance.

      If you want a low-value woman, your PUA stuff will work great. Keep her off balance. Don’t show consistent effort. Never commit or call. Only text. Be careful not to be nice or spend money. The only women you’ll end up with are the ones who lack enough self-esteem to walk away from the bullshit games.

      I’ll put in the effort and get the high-value woman, thanks.

  18. 108
    Sparkling Emerald

    In regards to men who like women to initiate/pursue etc. 
    Just some observations on a long time family friend who said he felt the same.  I remember when he was dating, he would take a woman out on one or two dates.  Then he would say it’s “their turn” to ask him out, and if they didn’t call and ask him out, that was that.  I don’t know if his thinking was that they JWITH, or if really, he tired of their company and this was a handy excuse to pull the amazing disappearing man trick.  I do know one girl was REALLY into him, but she flunked his “she must initiate the third date rule”.  The woman he eventually married, was quite alpha, and from my limited observation, it seemed she led the relationship, and apparently passed his criteria for initiating.  Fast forward a few years and 2 kids later.  She micro-managed his time with the kids.  If she’d be gone for the day, she left him pages of “instructions” on what to do with the kids, and questioned him when she returned, and GOD FORBID, if he substituted afternoon art activity with water balloon fights in the back yard, or if nap time was pushed up an hour, or if he decided to let the kids snack on something other than the designated snack.  His “honey do” list on other matters was a mile long, and once again, had to be completed to exact standards.  Fast forward to one kid in college and one grown and flown . . .   He is now living somewhere he’s not to happy about, because she wanted to live somewhere else.  They have been in relationship counseling almost from day one of their marriage.  They have talked about divorce, but are still trying to work things out.  He isn’t too happy.
    OK, I am not one of their numerous marriage counselors here, but I DO wonder if on some level he is unhappy about having his balls in a vice by his alpha wife.  I could be dead wrong, I’m no expert but . . .
    Guys, be careful what you wish for, when wishing for a woman who will initiate and pursue *
     
    *Disclaimer — Your results may vary.

  19. 109
    Morris

    @John #119 – you highlighted it yourself. ‘…the game is on!’
     
    I’m sure an alpha that wants to play the field would do well taking that advice. I don’t see how you can confuse that with the alpha male that wants to be in a ltr and goes out and gets what he wants. He’s not going to sit back and take whatever falls in his lap.  Or limit his options to only those women.

  20. 110
    Ruby

    If a man doesn’t offer to pick up the tab on the first date, one of 3 things goes through my mind: he’s not into me, he’s not into anything serious, or he’s cheap. I’m not particularly concerned with how much a man spends on early dates. If it’s coffee or drinks, no problem. A neighborhood walk or something inexpensive is fine. If I like the man, I’m not going to be put off by an inexpensive date. But a man who is hung up on getting a “return on his investment”, as if I am a piece of real estate, who would describe his dates in terms of “cost per lay”, well, let’s just say, I am not so stupid – or so desperate – that I can’t see through that. But the girls who just want, as Dean put it, “a roll in the hay” are probably going to be okay with that. Small investment, small results. Not really EMK’s target audience, though.
     
    There’s also a difference between being receptive and pursuing. I’ve dated some men who were pretty beta, and they still wanted to pursue if they liked me. As someone who’s dated alot, and has read just about every dating advice book or blog out there, the common mantra is “Let him pursue you.” Why do you suppose the dating gurus – of who there are many more than there are PUA advisors – all advocate that? I’d say the PUA philosophy might work for what it was intended for: to pick up women, but for a LTR, it would fail miserably.
     
    Any woman out there dating encounters her share of jerks, but if you’re a nice guy and we like you, you will stand out.

  21. 111
    Ruby

    Sorry, meant to add that if I liked the guy who didn’t offer to pick up the check, I’d probably see him again. But I’d have my guard up. It’s quite doubtful that any sort of relationship would come of this encounter anyway.

  22. 112
    Helen

    There’s too much black-and-white in this discussion. “High-value women don’t chase.” “Low-value women are susceptible to PUA actions.” There is a lot of judgment – of both men and women – and a lot of categorization without recognizing that what suits men and women varies enormously across spectra. On that note, I agree with Nathan and John. There is no one-size-fits-all solution.
     
    Each of us is intelligent enough (I believe) to be able to test the waters and determine what style works for the person with whom we’re interacting. Likewise, each of us has a natural style, which may be more proactive or receptive, and doesn’t fall neatly along gender lines. I am more proactive by nature. Many women and men who interact with me like this, Some don’t. It’s easy to tell. I, then, have the choice either to alter my style to accommodate those who clearly don’t like an initiating female (even in business or friendship contexts), or to forego a relationship with that person. We all have that choice.
     
    But it certainly doesn’t fall into the lines of “All alpha men, or all worthy men, don’t like women to pursue; and if they want women to pursue, they’re doing or thinking something wrong or they’re not alpha.” In fact, most men I know are extremely receptive and responsive to fulfilling women’s wants, which is one of the things I love about men. And they’re certainly not all betas. They’re successful, good men who like it when a woman expresses what she wants.
     
    The other point I want to mention is that I’m now of an age where I see that the whole alpha-male-pursuing trick isn’t necessarily successful in LTRs and marriages. Fifteen years ago, we and all our friends were getting married. Since that time, a few have gotten divorced, but only recently have there been a LOT of couples in our cohort getting divorced. In many of the cases, the man was an alpha who pursued, but once he got her, he felt that she should do all the household chores even if she had a job, and felt that he could still sit back and critique her like a boss. 
     
    So let me throw out the idea that it’s not enough to casually say something like, “Women, you can let your more proactive side come out after you’ve snagged the man with your receptive side.”  It doesn’t work that easily.  Once a relational pattern has been established, it’s hard to change – and I feel like this gets glossed over way too much in discussions here.  I.e., what happens AFTER getting the guy, not just in a few months, but over years and decades?
     
    Anecdotes aren’t everything, but I’ll just add my story: that I am a pursuer, never tried to ape a different persona in all the years I knew my husband, and we’ve been doing really well. There is something to be said for being happy with your real self and letting it shine.
     
    Thanks for letting me express this alternative viewpoint.

  23. 113
    Henriette

    @Dean 98.  Thanks for sharing your experience with paying less/ lay.  I find it interesting.  What I wonder if you’re seeing is women react to what they see as thought & creativity, rather than low dollar amount.  I mean a nice dinner out is lovely but it doesn’t show much imagination on the dude’s part; its pretty standard and as such, could be seen as slightly beta.  If a man takes me to a free exhibition at a local art gallery and then we go for a walk in the park where he buys me an ice cream, it demonstrates some forethought and it’s not just the “same old, same old.” 
     
    And, I find it interesting that so many guys here seem to believe that a woman who calls/ texts/ initiates is necessarily more interested than the women who don’t.  If anything, my honest-to-goodness experience has ben the opposite.  The woman who genuinely likes a guy will often hang back a bit whereas the woman who initiates contact is often just a female “playah” who enjoys head games. 
     
     

  24. 114
    SalsaQ

    Helen 125 “There’s too much black-and-white in this discussion.”

    Oh thank-you Helen! Slotting people into two-dimensional roles can be illustrative as hyperbolic examples, but rarely jibe with reality. Posters on this blog drift into wanting to take these roles completely literally.

    Example:
    “….he would take a woman out on one or two dates. Then he would say it’s “their turn” to ask him out, and if they didn’t call and ask him out, that was that. …The woman he eventually married, ….led the relationship, and apparently passed his criteria for initiating. Fast forward …His “honey do” list on other matters was a mile long, and once again, had to be completed to exact standards. … They have been in relationship counseling almost from day one of their marriage”.

    The implication is anyone who asks a man out on date three will be a micromanaging control freak.

    Warning flags!!! Led the relationship instead of being a partner and relationship counseling since day one. Those were the real signs of trouble.

    Control freaks will be aggressive, because they want to control the arc of the relationship and _one_ feature of that _might_ be to initiate dates early on. The converse that all or even most women initiating a date are definitively flawed, needy or a control freaks is positively ludicrous. Is it more likely there is a control problem in that woman? Probably. That does not equate to highly likely.

    You have to look at the whole of the interaction, not a single litmus test about whether a gender steps out of a rigidly defined role.

  25. 115
    Ruby

    Helen #125
     
    Of course, there are always exceptions and gray areas. Just out of curiosity, did you actively pursue your husband then? Or were you the just the first to indicate interest?

  26. 116
    Sparkling Emerald

    @Henriette 126
    IRT @Dean 98.  Thanks for sharing your experience with paying less/ lay.  I find it interesting.  What I wonder if you’re seeing is women react to what they see as thought & creativity, rather than low dollar amount.  I mean a nice dinner out is lovely but it doesn’t show much imagination on the dude’s part; its pretty standard and as such, could be seen as slightly beta.  If a man takes me to a free exhibition at a local art gallery and then we go for a walk in the park where he buys me an ice cream, it demonstrates some forethought and it’s not just the “same old, same old.” 
     
    ————————
    YES, YES, YES !!!!  I find a free cultural festival in the park to be way more interesting and fun, gives us more ways to interact and shows more creativity than the standard dinner and or movie date.  Also, in my case, it shows that the guy read and responded to my online dating profile, because on both date sites that I am on, there is a section for you to list your idea of a good date.   I list concerts in the park,(which are abundant & free locally)  First Friday art walks (which are free and most people in this locale know that) Where I live, there is a plethora of fun FREE things to do,  and anyone who has read my profile and knows this locale knows that I can be a fun, low cost or no cost date.  I would rather the first few dates be about having fun, being playful and getting to KNOW someone, rather than about some guy trying to impress me by throwing his money around, or worse yet, trying to get  the maximum sexual “return on his investment” like I am a whore on the street.  I would rather be running barefoot through the fountains in the park (along with the other kids :) ) with my date while the sounds of free jazz float through the air, and then go to the museum (which is free on Sunday) I can find out much more about the person on this kind of date.  Does he mind running through the fountains with  me? Does he get annoyed that I will probably take 20 photos of random objects as we are meandering through the park? If a group of strangers ask me to take a group photo of them,& I do,  does he get impatient ?   Does he think I’m silly and immature if I get a big sparkly flower painted on my face?  If the answer to any of the above is “Yes”, he’s probably not the guy for me, and it didn’t cost him a dime to find out that we aren’t a good match.  And if we are a potential match, it didn’t cost him a dime to find out either.  (Although, if he wanted to treat me to a gelato I wouldn’t object :)  ) I really don’t think we could find out as much about each other at a five star restaurant.

  27. 117
    Angie

    @ John 119 – Actually, I 100% feel that those statements you have made about women are equally true about men.  I feel that men are WAY more likely to try to lock it down / put a ring on it / push a commitment when they feel like they’ve EARNED the relationship or are forced to raise the stakes somehow.
     
    I personally find this stressful, because once I am comfortable in a relationship, I like to be my usual sweet self.  I’d have no respect for a man if I felt I had to game him, but the guys I’m not that into (for GOOD reasons) who work to step up their own game are always declaring how in love they are, while the guys I attempt to meet in the middle and feel I have a healthy relationship with always seem to have some “I know I like you and I like our relationship, but I don’t want to marry you” issue.  (Though, when Evan talks about his indecision when he first started dating his wife, I feel like that’s what my experiences have been… but they don’t bring it up until the year mark AND they didn’t marry me!)
     
    Maybe I need to read “Why Men Marry Bitches” or something.  I don’t get why men or women need a challenge.  I want a best friend, not a challenge.

  28. 118
    Clare

    Dean # 111
    Personally, I think your dates of duck feeding at the pond, or rollerblading, or a walk in Manhattan sound lovely, and I don’t mind in the least if a guy doesn’t spend a lot of money on me on the first couple of dates, as long as he is initiating and planning it, and putting the effort in, and most of all, showing an *interest* in me. Hell, I wish my rich ex-boyfriend had planned dates which were half so thoughtful.
     
    I don’t really expect a guy who is a perfect stranger to shell out a lot of money before I am his girlfriend, I am far more interested in getting to know him as a person, and in him getting to know me. However once we were in a relationship, I would expect him to start investing in me, and this would include, though not be limited to, financially.
     
    I have to absolutely, 100% second what Karmic is saying. The only reason those PUA techniques would work on high-value women is because they increase the guy’s confidence, which is by far the most attractive quality. I think it’s wise to consider how much money you are spending in dating a number of women, but just don’t lose sight of what will really draw a woman in strongly – confidence, charm, ease and sincere interest in who she is.

  29. 119
    Helen

    Thanks, SalsaQ. I noticed that example too, and found that it fell short for all the reasons you describe. Black and white thinking will only cause people to eliminate or accept others on a very limited basis, which is detrimental in relationships of all types.

  30. 120
    Frimmel

    One of the things I find interesting and entertaining about this blog (and what at first had me perceiving Evan as a ‘red pill guy’ instead of a traditionalist) was his willingness to say, “This is how Men are. A man might not be like that. It is fine to want a man like that and do things counter to how Men are but you will make things more difficult on yourself.” I fully understand that is being said to me with regards to my preference for women who aren’t entirely passive.
     
    This preference does in fact come from a confidence problem. Confidence that I understand how Women are and confidence that I want a woman who is not like that. I fully understand that this makes my dating life more difficult, particularly given how small a pool it is, because Women are not like my preference.
     
    I also understand about being more alpha. I can do that. I’m still surprised at how easy it is to get the hamster running in its wheel. But I’m not looking for sex with a rotation of vacuous entitlement princesses and that lifestyle doesn’t fit my value system. James Bond gets the girl but he doesn’t keep her does he?

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