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Jerry is 38, makes $120,000/year, and wants to be a husband and father. Jerry’s a man’s man. It’s not that he’s insensitive, per se. It’s that he’s far more comfortable building a deck in his backyard, tinkering with his car, and playing golf than he is talking about his feelings. Still, for all his Marlboro Man demeanor, he’s good-hearted, generous and loyal. He may never be emotive, but he will be a good partner for a woman who doesn’t expect a man to express himself verbally. He shows his love through acts of service.
Problem is that Jerry’s had a hard time falling in love. Women love his manly side, his innate nobility, his serve and protect ethos. What they struggle with is his view of women.
He wants a traditional homemaker as a wife, and in his city, he’s had a devil of a time finding any attractive woman who shared his worldview.
Jerry wants a stay-at-home wife. One who handles the household and takes care of the kids and has dinner on the table for him when he gets home from work. For most of his thirties, he’s been dating attractive women who respond to his masculine energy, and yet each of those relationships has imploded. Because when push comes to shove, Jerry believes in traditional marital roles. It’s not that he thinks women are inferior. Nor does he feel that women don’t have the right to work hard and make equal money as their male counterparts. This is simply about him and his needs. He wants a traditional homemaker as a wife, and in his city, he’s had a devil of a time finding any attractive woman who shared his worldview. Simply put, Jerry likes smart women. They’re more stimulating. And it just seems that all the smart women are so busy juggling career, friends, travel, the gym, book club, and a side business, that he’s not sure about what to do. Should he keep dating the smart women who are out of alignment with his life goals? Should he hold out for Suzy Homemaker, although, after ten years, he’s beginning to doubt her very existence? Or is there a third, middle path – some form of possible compromise?
I don’t know about you, but it would seem to me that options 1 and 2 are out. If he continues to date career women, Jerry’ll be unhappy in the long run. If he hopes to organically meet a stay-at-home Mom type at bars and business functions, he may be single forever. Thus, it would seem that the third option – compromise – would be Jerry’s most prudent choice. But what does that compromise look like? How can Jerry find what he’s looking for?
Hold that thought.
Now I’d like you to meet Shari. Shari is 36 and wants to be a wife and mother. Shari is a smart, strong, successful woman. It’s not that she’s masculine, per se. It’s that she’s far more comfortable talking to venture capital firms and planning to summit Mt. Whitney than she is with cooking dinner for her husband. Still, despite her Hillary Clinton exterior, she’s good-hearted, generous and loyal. She may never be domestic, but she will be a good partner for a man who doesn’t expect his wife to perform traditionally feminine roles. She shows her love by working hard, achieving her dreams, planning and taking care of business. Not that different from Jerry, actually.
Problem is that Shari also has had a hard time falling in love. Men love her brainy side, her intellectual curiosity, and the way she seems to have it all under control. What they struggle with is her view of marital roles. The men that she wants to marry want a more traditional wife. And that’s just not who Shari is.
While Shari is succeeding in a “man’s world”, at home, she still wants to be the woman. Apart from the housework. And the dinner on the table.
Shari makes $250,000/year and lives a life consistent with her salary. She has season tickets to the theater, takes at least one international vacation every year, and never skimps out on good restaurants and spa treatments. She’s looking for a man who makes at least what she does, so she can quit her job, be a stay at home mom for as long as she wants, and not sacrifice her lifestyle at all. While Shari is succeeding in a “man’s world”, at home, she still wants to be the woman. Apart from the housework. And the dinner on the table. When she really stops and thinks about it, Shari wants to raise kids, do yoga and have playdates with her friends until she goes back to work. While this feels like a reasonable expectation – she’s seen the Real Housewives! – Shari’s struggled, consistently dating attractive men who always fall short. If her boyfriend makes more than Shari, he’s inevitably self-involved. Whether he’s working 60 hour weeks, traveling all the time, or only communicating by text, Shari never feels like a priority. And if her boyfriend makes less than Shari, she discovers he’s either threatened by her success, or, just as likely, Shari doesn’t see him as husband material.
Why wouldn’t a man who accepts Shari’s success and appreciates her ambition be qualified to be her husband?
Good question. Well, as Shari sees it, there’s no way she can quit her job and maintain her $250,000 lifestyle with a guy who makes anything less than $250,000.
Because of this self-imposed restriction, Shari remains single. It’s not that she really believes there are no good men out there. It’s that the men she’s most attracted to – the captains of industry – just aren’t that into her. The men she works with all married “normal” women – high school teachers, nurses, graphic designers. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but it doesn’t seem fair that an amazing woman like Shari should have to “settle” for a man who makes less. So far, she still holds out hope that she can get the man of her dreams, but she’s starting to waver. In Shari’s mind, she sees only two options: 1) Ignore men who make less than her, and keep dating charismatic successful men who have no interest in dating the female version of themselves, and 2) Remain single for the rest of her life. A third option, involving compromise, never occurs to her.
I think it’s very clear that both Shari and Jerry need to compromise. But I’m guessing that if you’re a woman reading this, you have a lot more sympathy for Shari holding out for her George Clooney than for Jerry holding out for his June Cleaver. That says a lot more about you than it does about the situations, which are completely parallel.
You may find Jerry frustrating, but, like Shari, he wants what he wants. He’s just not getting it. If you were to point out to Jerry that only 14% of women are stay at home moms (and a majority of them were economically disadvantaged, not privileged), you may raise his eyebrows a bit. But nothing will change. Facts are rarely strong enough to change feelings. So even though Jerry’s spent ten years chasing a unicorn, he will not let go. He wants what he wants. Even though he’d be happier expanding his search. Maybe then he finds a woman who will stay at home until the kids are in school and then return to work part-time. Maybe he finds a woman who will take the lead on child-rearing and household chores, but asks him to help out with the cooking (or bring home take-out). But until Jerry comes toward the center, his mythical smart, stay-at-home housewife fantasies may never be realized. And if this is the case for Jerry, wouldn’t your advice to Shari be the same?
Sure, Shari can go out with another hedge fund guy, only to discover his work comes first, he’s looking for a younger women, and he’s not ready to settle down. Sure, Shari can continue to scroll through men online who list their incomes as $150,000+. But isn’t she guilty of the same all-or-nothing thinking as Jerry? Isn’t she holding out for 2-3% of men – men who have largely proven themselves indifferent to her as a partner? So how can Shari compromise the way Jerry did? How can she come towards the center and stumble her way to happiness?
Shari sees men who make less money as leeches.
Well, one thing Shari hasn’t fully contemplated is that whatever her future husband’s salary, it’s additional income. It doesn’t take money out of her pocket. This is a revelation, since Shari sees men who make less money as leeches. For example, if she wants to go to Bali, she has to pay for her husband’s plane ticket, and that’s not fair (even though husbands do it for their wives all the time). This hypocrisy restricts her from seeing the potential in the 97% of men who make less than she does. While Shari works, if she makes $250,000 and her husband makes $120,000, together they’re making $370,000, which, quite objectively, is more than the $250,000 she was bringing in without her husband.
Why Shari sees him as a drain is beyond me.
Next, if Shari decides to quit her job when she has kids, she will still have a husband who is financially solvent and then some. Remember, Shari wants a man who makes MORE than she does. $100K is not enough. $125K is not enough. $150K is not enough. $175K is not enough. $200K is not enough. $225K is not enough. This is Shari’s big blind spot. As long as her husband is not in debt, is happy at his job, and can pay the rent and support the family on his salary, then everything will be okay. Plenty of families live on less than $125,000/year. Plus, Shari will not be going for spa weekends, safaris in South Africa, or to her personal trainer three times a week. She will be up in the middle of the night breastfeeding, lugging her baby to Mommy and Me class, strolling around the park, and wondering how any Mom gets anything done during the day. Yes, $125K will do just fine, until the kids are off to school and Shari can resume her career part-time or full-time.
I’ve written about this subject before, namely here and here, but in presenting the case of Jerry, the man who wants something he cannot have, I think the solution is obvious: compromise. Find a woman who gives you most of what you need, instead of holding out for your fantasy woman whom you have never been able to land.
For some reason, that same compromise seems a little less obvious to many of the smart, strong, successful women who read this blog.
Your thoughts, as always, are appreciated.
Marcia says
Evan, please give Jerry my details:-)..lol
Marcia
Selena says
If Jerry and Shari were friends of mine I don’t know that my advice would be the same, but it would be similiar. Stay-at-home parenting is a lifestyle. It IS a job, and often feels like 2 or 3 jobs because there is less time off – especially when the children are small.
For Shari I would ask: Which is MORE important to you, having a family or having a $250 k lifestyle? Which do you think is more likely: regretting you never had children? Or resenting those children because you have less money to spend? Be very, very honest with yourself.
For Jerry: Would you want to spend several-to-many years being a SAHP? If you wouldn’t, can you see why other people wouldn’t want to either? Which situation would you prefer: having children who were cared for during the day by someone other than your wife? Or not ever having children at all?
It comes down to the same thing for both Jerry and Shari: How important is having a family to you really.
Frimmel says
In my opinion Shari thinks of having kids as another career or life goal to accomplish. She doesn’t consider it a worthwhile pursuit in and of its self. Having a family is something she wants on her terms and for her gratification and as a modern high achieving alpha woman she isn’t going to fail her education and diminish her achievements and let down the side by cooking and keeping house for an oppressive male (who will damn well hold up his half of the housework as well as the lawn and his 60+ hour a week job to earn the 120K) who couldn’t make as much as she did.
Shari can’t see the solution because she doesn’t even begin to see the problem.
Babs says
I need a break from work, i can do with Jerry for now…lol. Am also a busy person and don’t have time for domestic chores, am always telling my bf that I don’t have time, but I do cook for him, when he visits. in reality, domestic chores are a waste of time for m at the moment, i work till late, coz am also studying on the side – my bf sounds open minded thou, and I compromise coz he’s a bit traditional as well, i’m one step away from calling him king and kneeling when I serve him food – typical of traditional African men and i live in South Africa. I enjoy this thou – coz I’ve been calling the shots in my previous relationship – hope I won’t get tired 🙂
Selena says
Thinking more about it, Shari could keep her position and it’s high salary, and hire someone to take care of her kids. Same option as Jerry. She gets the $$$, the kids, but not the time to do playdates.
Morris says
I’m sorry but something must be seriously wrong with Jerry. A successful man that can’t find a smart woman who wants a more traditional marriage? I must be living in an alternate universe. SAHMs might only be 14% but I’m pretty sure that’s only because of financial reasons. I’ve dated teachers to lawyers and the majority of them would have loved to quit and become a SAHM if the option was available.(At least that’s the confession I get in private.) Heck I know plenty of men that would do the same if their partners wanted to be the sole bread winner.
Of course if the point was ‘you need to compromise if things aren’t working’ I get it.
Julia says
I don’t sympathize with either of them. They are simple not models of most people. Sorry, neither of these people are relatable to me.
I would love to hear about how middle class people with comparable salaries make marriage work and share responsibilities.
JustMe says
Can I have problems like these? I make $45 a year and also have trouble finding someone to build a life with; and not because my list is too long or have too high of expectations.
Jackie H. says
Yes, what about the more middle class people?
JB says
Obviously Evan everyone is having a tough time relating to and feeling sorry for the “rich” people with so called dilemma but if you substitute the numbers with 60K and 40K the answer is still the same. You either compromise what you’ll settle for or you’ll be alone with no spouse and no kids. There’s thousands of women online that ignore thousands of men everyday because none of them are “good enough”. It never ends…………
Brittany says
I have this to say about both Jerry and Shari: Get over yourself, then get real with yourself. While I respect both of their wishes, they need to realize that the world is all about compromise.
Jerry wants a perfect, traditional wife, which is fine. I actually feel a measure of sympathy for him. Some men are taught that expressing emotions somehow makes them weak. I really wish we stop teaching boys that emotions make them weak as a society. On the other hand, I know plenty of women who would love to sit around, give him babies, and spend his money faster than he can make it. However, I don’t think he would be happy. If he is attracted to smart women who are comfortable in their own skin, chances are she doesn’t want to be a housewife. He needs to figure out where he really is willing to compromise before trying to find a wife.
As for Shari, seriously? I have no sympathy for her. She wants to continue living her life the way she wants, even after she’s married and quits her job. I don’t think she really wants to be a mom. I think she is using the mom card as an excuse to get away with staying home for a time all the while continuing to do exactly what she wants when she wants. I realize that she may be a perfectly likable person, and that she may actually have a warm, nurturing side. It just doesn’t come across in your description of her.
If I were her friend, these are the questions I would ask her. How would she feel if money were taken out of the equation? If when she were on a date, and she didn’t think about how much money her or her date made in year? Would the date be more or less fun? Money, while necessary, is a superficial characteristic. It says nothing about a person’s character, beliefs or values.
Both Jerry and Shari need to realize that compromising on things like money and household chores doesn’t mean they are settling for less than what they deserve. All compromise means is that they are willing to work on having the very best relationship they can have. It means letting go of what you think you want in a partner, and understanding what you need from your partner. I would challenge both of them to actually figure out what they need from a partner. I would tell Shari that her need for her partner to make more money than she currently does is actually a want. Just like Jerry’s need for his future wife to be a stay-at-home mom is a want. Yes would both be nice. Absolutely! Should be those be the only requirements used to determine whether someone should be a partner, hell no!
Lottie says
Actually, I would disagree with money being unimportant. I was raised by parents in very traditional male/female roles and when I was younger I would have loved to have taken on a traditional stay at home mother/housewife role and dated men who wanted this arrangement. Money wasn’t an issue for me when I began dating. But after 3 relationships ending in arguments because we never had enough money to go out or afford a holiday and struggled to cover the bills, I have decided that money is in fact extremely important.
I now have a higher salary (not the level of income quoted in the article, but more than I was originally earning) and wouldn’t date anyone earning under a certain amount simply because I don’t wish to live through all the stress of being poor again. It made life very very hard and we were both too exhausted and depressed to enjoy life. Money was never important while it was there, but you soon recognise the value of wealth after it’s gone! It has a huge impact on the success or failure of a relationship.
LR says
Jerry turns women off with his extremely high standards.
Carl says
And Sheri doesn’t ?
BTW – If Sheri needs a stay at home husband, she can give me a call. LOL.
Lisa says
Women are taught that they should not express emotions at all and that they should be silent and subservient. But anyway, this is all about traditional gender roles.
SparklingEmerald says
Brittany said ” On the other hand, I know plenty of women who would love to sit around, give him babies, and spend his money faster than he can make it.”
I know women who were glad to stay at home, working hard at running the household, caring for children, and carefully budget the money. I WAS one of those women, and so were my SAHM friends. I think more women might be willing to stay home for a few years while the children are very young, but they don’t want to be stereotyped as a lazy, spendthrift, woman, like your nasty stereotype above.
Selena says
I know middle class (and barely middle class) people who’ve chosen SAHP. People with much lower incomes still face the choices hypothetical Jerry & Shari face – giving up the benefits that come from having dual income to support the household. For the people I know (and have been) this can mean living in a smaller home, in a more modest neighborhood. It can mean sharing a car instead of having two. Taking stay-cations instead of traveling. Eating out only rarely as treat. Limited spending on clothes, electronics, furnishings. The smaller the income, the more things become “luxuries”.
Shari doesn’t want to give up her luxuries. I’ll venture neither do the women Jerry has met who don’t want to be SAHP’s. The people who do choose SAHP are willing to because having a parent at home raising the children vs. a daycare provider is worth the sacrifice to them. Even if their household income is only 40k. Or less.
Also, some people just aren’t cut out to stay home with their children 24/7 regardless of their level of income. The children may be better off with someone who has chosen childcare as a career path rather than with a frustrated, stressed out parent who’d rather be doing almost anything else.
Jerry and Shari’s problem is do they really want to be parents, or do they want to hold onto their fantasies about parenting?
SparklingEmerald says
Selena @ 12
We were dirt poor when we had our only son. I had him 2 weeks away from my 35th birthday, so we really didn’t want to wait until we were more financially set (tick-tock, biological time clock) At first my decision to stay at home was a practical one. I was fairly low income, and day care, and work related expenses (gas, nicer wardrobe etc) being in a higher tax bracket, etc., would pretty much eat up all but $50 a week of my paycheck, so really, was it worth driving myself crazy for $1.25 an hour ? So we did most of the things you just mentioned. We sold one of our cars, rarely ate out, I shopped at Factory to U, Other Mother’s and Goodwill on dollar day. Cloth diapers (yes), home made baby food after weaning him, etc. Eventually I started watching a few children in my home (mostly to provide some friends for our son) and then when he was four, worked very part time at nights while my hubby worked days.
However, what started off as a financial/practical decision, ended up being one of the most joyful “jobs” I have ever had. In a way, I’m glad that I never had a big deal career because if I did, I doubt I would have left it to stay home for 4 years. I have many sweet and beautiful memories of those years. I know it’s not for everyone, and I seriously doubted if it was even for me, but it was.
Ruby says
I’m not sure the problem is the same for the middle class. Most of us wish we had the luxury of worrying about taking a trip to Bali or refusing any man who makes less than 250K. Jerry might be looking at only 14% of women, but Shari is looking at a mere 3% of the men. Most of us aren’t quite that rigid.
There are plenty of smart women who wouldn’t mind staying home with their kids, maybe not indefinitely, but for a few years. Perhaps Jerry expects to marry someone who will never work again? Not realistic. And Shari sounds extremely materialistic. She’s hurting her chances and turning men off with her impossibly high standards.
I’m with Julia; I can’t sympathize with either of them.
LR says
Actually, that’s 3% of the women for Jerry and 15% of the men for Shari.
Flea says
I’m a single mom of 2 with a master’s degree working at a university for 36K a year. I wish I had Shari’s problems! I never had the option to be a SAHM, but even if I did I wouldn’t take it because I love working! My job is really fun and it gives me a chance to miss my kids so that I enjoy our time together more. I would never be able to quit my job to make a man happy, but I have plenty of friends who have, so I know it’s possible. I liked Selena’s advice, it seems like they need some self-reflection here.
Goldie says
Both Jerry and Shari appear to want the same thing – to have a family and kids while not having to change a thing in their current lifestyle, while their partner bends over backwards to allow them to keep living the life they live now. This isn’t limited to people with traditional mindsets, or upper-class; this is standard douchebag mentality. Additionally Shari must be smoking something, if she doesn’t realize that a) staying at home with a baby will change her lifestyle drastically, regardless of her total family income; and 2) 250K/year for one person is not the same as 250K/year for a family of three or four. Even if she finds the man she’s looking for, the per capita income in her family is going to drop. No wonder they cannot compromise; they’re both nuts.
Michael17 says
Look at us getting all hung up in the details of the money thing and losing sight of the lesson here. That NEVER happens here right? Haha.
I’m a somewhat nerdy guy in his late-30”²s expecting to connect with a mid-20”²s yoga instructor with a curvy body and a sensual yet kind energy. I can get such a girl because the PUA Gurus told me so! Problem is, every such woman I come across, if she isn’t already taken, just doesn’t seem to be interested in me. Seems that she has the pick of seemingly every guy in the town, and she prefers alpha dudes who are much closer to her in age, even if these dudes don’t have the career success I’ve had.
Meanwhile, my female friend is a moderately attractive woman in her mid-30”²s who is holding out for a guy with whom she feels that incredible chemistry with, and on the first date please. Then past that the guy has to be an Alpha Male with the looks of Fabio in his prime making $200K who has an advanced degree. He also needs to have eyes only for her, and he has to be tolerant of her busy busy schedule. Can she have that? Of course she can! She was taught she is a goddess who can have it all! Problem is, every guy she meets is (a) just a nice decent guy, and even though he might be really interested, the first-date chemistry on her end is only “average”, or (b) a dude who hardly seems into her.
No not really. I made both stories up. I’m not really holding out for a hot yoga instructor 12 years my junior and I don’t have a female friend who shared with me her dating requirements. Evan’s point is that what Jerry and Shari want is not realisti
LR says
Just beware that that yoga instructor who is much younger than you will have guys her age beat you up or kill you for wanting to date her. And that woman in her mid-30s will have the Alpha males she is pressured to date beat you up or kill you for wanting to date her as well.
Janie says
LOL I almost think your story of two fictional people is more relatable to average people than is the original article.
Would you consider compromising for a thin, pretty yoga instructor in her early thirties who loves nerds? Oh, wait you were making that up. JK!
marymary says
Michael
ha, what you said seemed so real. I think any template we have is unrealistic. Much as I love my boyfriend if you’d told me a year ago I’d be dating someone who’s shot animals (hunting) I would have said NO WAY. And now he’s been made redundant. A real person can never be as fantastic or, conversely, as limited as the pretend person we think will meet our needs or give us the lifestyle we want.
Chaka says
Ha! I am right there with you marymary! I never in a million years thought I’d even date a hunter, but I am, and we’ll be living together in two months — with the deer on the wall in the living room no less! I still disagree with hunting, but I wouldn’t trade him in for the world.
Helen says
I’m with Julia and Ruby. These two fictional (I hope) characters are not really relatable to most of us real people out here.
Jerry’s insistence on a stay-at-home wife puts his partner in an extremely weak and vulnerable financial position in today’s high divorce rates and poor economy. This is not to say that some women don’t want to be SAHMs, or that there is anything wrong with that – but there is something rather selfish and control-freakish about his insisting upon his wife being in that vulnerable position.
As for Shari: ugh. Evan, you weren’t by any chance basing her character upon the one gal who used to post here by any chance, were you? The one who claimed she made over $200K but only wanted men who earned more; who also insisted that everyone “stick to their own races” and that Asian women throw themselves at white men in order to “trade up” racially. Yeah, I don’t have much respect for her. Thankfully I have never met any woman like this in real life, even the ones who earn over $200K.
To the handful of women who are like Shari: Chicas, if you want children, you are not going to have the time to live your current luxurious single lifestyle. Maybe you can if you’re married without kids, but those kids are a game-changer. You need to get a grip on reality. It is impossible to have it all, at least all at once. This is not to say that you won’t enjoy your life, but those priorities that you’re holding so dear now are simply incompatible with the life you claim you want.
Her priorities for a man are also off-the-wall ridiculous, but I’ll leave that to other commenters to pick apart.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Helen – I certainly did not base Shari on a random blog poster who you’re fixated on. I based her on women I sincerely care about: my clients. You know? The ones who actually pay me for my advice?
You may not think women like this exist, but they do, they pay my bills, and I am very careful not to judge them. They want what they want.
Andrew Sindler says
Evan, there is a real problem in the responses to this article. They treat the idea of child bearing as a god given right without much thought for the idea that children are human beings in of themselves. It is all about the fight for domestic power. What is really repulsive to me and some other men and women I have talked to is that after decades of feminism child abuse, neglect, and the prevalence of using mental health interventions to somehow compensate (even thought they even further damage) for child neglect has skyrocketed to the point where tens of millions of children are exhibiting mental dysfunctions that coordinate to abuse and neglect.
As is, in the West neither parents want to raise their children and instead desire to and do rely on a delusion that someone else is going to adequately care for and nurture their children. However, it never happens and frequently the parents never even put in place adequate services to provide for the same amount of parental involvement time that would be afforded in a traditional family. Meanwhile, crime goes up in countries like America, Canada, and the UK among demographics that had lower rates of crime and inability to work historically and parents and societies blame it on “genetic psychiatric epidemics” that somehow prevent children from raise themselves from age 2 and on without more than an hour or two of daily parental guidance.
Its an atrocity on the level of genocide in my opinion. And it seems to be that the only real solution is going to be when a children’s rights movement equal in magnitude or greater than the feminism/women’s rights movements comes along and frees children from the status of property/chattel/slavery.
Everything else is really superfluous. The struggle of adults infecting the vulnerable worlds of children with fights for supremacy is not important or is as important as the desire for eugenicists to have a world clean of undesirables: less than of 0.00 importance…Of a negative level (-100000) of importance.
I know the abuse that happens in a world in which parents behave like anti-social, infantilized life-long adolescents (for lack of a better world). In fact, my welfare and the welfare of my siblings were so insignificant that the story of our physical and mental abuse hold no weight among those adults we grew up with. Children are truly the last remaining truly oppressed and enslaved class of human beings in the Western World. One can laugh at this as ridiculous, but only at the expense of digesting and accepting pure evil.
Abey mark says
Excellent article. Love it!
Helen says
Evan, I never said Shari was a racist. There isn’t anything in your description that implies that. My 2nd to last paragraph is for her and your clients who are just like her. Frankly I think it’s pretty darn realistic advice, which you, too, would know as a parent.
(Racist? Huh? Where the hell’d you get that? -EMK)
Selena says
Evan, I guessed Shari was a kind of composite of some of your clients. Since you have revealed that, can you tell us what choices these women end up making? Do they come to realize finding a loving partner and father trumps income level? Do they refuse to give up the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills fantasy? Do they decide they would be happier single and childless rather than *downsize*?
Valery North says
Well, the problem I see is that neither Jerry nor Shari seem to want a partner: they both want an asset, who will function like any other household appliance in their lives.
Teaming up with someone to make a life together is not about “here’s my current life, let’s add a husband/wife to the mix and get some new upgraded features.” It’s about creating a NEW life together that may have some elements of the old lives but ultimately is shaped around each other, not oneself. It’s impossible to know what that life will look like or which things from the old lives will still seem worth keeping once you get to that point. THAT’S the bigger mistake they both make, and I hear in both stories underlying fears – loss of independence, loss of decision-making power, but most of all, a fear of the unknown.
It's you says
this is why marriage and parenthood are not for everyone. I wish more people could admit this to themselves beforehand.
Crews says
Both people have very fixed perspectives on want they want in relationships and are better off single, because if they were married they wouldn’t be for long. Compromise and flexibility is the cornerstone of any relationship, especially intimate relationships and to be over 30 years old and have not embraced this means that you lack the emotional intelligence to make a marriage work. Most people who want to only marry once and to be happy in their marriages will find these types of perspectives unattractive for a sustainable relationship.
Vixxy says
I have a hard time believing that a smart woman would hold out for a man who makes more then her. I have a six figure income that exceeds my husbands substantially, and more education but it does not interfere in our marriage at all. He needs travel a “good” income and a certain minimum in education (for me that’s a bachelors) but beyond that, everything else is extra.
In fact, most men I met along my career path were largely undatable. Toto busy to make time for sleep, let alone a girlfriend.
Morris says
Am I the only one who thinks a successful person(and from what I can tell a good person) wanting a stay at home partner reasonable? I see it happening in my circle all the time. I understand it’s not as common as in the past but it’s most definitely still in the norm. I remember reading an article by Sheryl Sandberg and how she was a little dismayed that only one of her fellow female lawyer friends was still working and the others chose to be SAHMs. What city do all the posters live in where they are saying Jerry is unreasonable? Just curious.
Rose says
Everything is a trade off at the end of the day, It’s a myth that we can have it all.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Selena:
Can you tell us what choices these women end up making? Sure!
Do they come to realize finding a loving partner and father trumps income level? Sometimes.
Do they refuse to give up the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills fantasy? Sometimes.
Do they decide they would be happier single and childless rather than *downsize*? Never. They either adjust to reality and find love, or hold onto their fantasies and stay single. They don’t change their fantasies.
Vixxy says
@Morris. It’s not unreasonable , but I don’t think it should be expected. Most women I know work at least part time. We hire nannys, cleaning people and dog walkers, but keep our jobs. I would think that if a man “expected” me to stay home I personally would find it unreasonable.
Rose says
If a woman wants to work still and the man wants a woman who doesn’t, it is not ever going to work. They are not a match. I do not know many of these really high earning career minded women in RL or men. They are the minority surely? Are most of your clients in this minority category Evan?
It comes to making choices at the end of the day of what is most important to the individuals and if they are able to be happy with their life choices.
Selena says
@Morris
When I read of what composite Jerry wanted my thoughts were, he’s 38; if he grew up in mainstream US culture he knows not only do most women work outside the home, most women are expected to. I’m surprised you see women staying home raising children as “most definitely still in the norm” perhaps it is just more common in your social circle? Evan gave a statistic that only 14% of women are SAHM’s. That would better describe the social circles I’ve been in, and what I’ve observed of Jerry’s generation.
I think people who haven’t as yet had children may sometimes romanticize parenting a bit. It’s not all teaching them numbers, colors, the alpahbet in between strolls in the park and playdates with other mothers and preschoolers. It’s also alot of washing spit up out of your clothes and hair; endless diaper changing; numerous occasions soothing throughout the day of babies who will cry at the drop of a hat; dealing with temper tantrums, breaking up countless fights between siblings; intervening on the behalf of pets (stop getting the cat wet!); washing the walls of crayons and markers (for God’s sake don’t have permanent magic markers in a home with children under the age of 8 unless you want to paint your walls); constant cleaning up of spills and messes and an exhausting amount of correction required to turn your adorable litte ego-centric maniac into a socialized human being. If Jerry doesn’t want to spend 24/7 doing this work, is it reasonable for him to expect someone else to jump at the chance?
Add to that Evan’s description of the women Jerry is attracted to: “Simply put, Jerry likes smart women. They’re more stimulating. And it just seems that all the smart women are so busy juggling career, friends, travel, the gym, book club, and a side business, that he’s not sure about what to do.” This indicates what? That only dumb women want to stay home with their children? I know this isn’t true. So let’s just say Jerry says he wants a home manager, but he’s inexplicably drawn to the kind of women to whom that job does not appeal. It’s not so much that it’s unreasonable as it is unrealistic. Just like Shari who doesn’t seem to see it’s unrealistic she will become a Real Housewife of Beverly Hills. Different sides, same coin.
Helen says
Vixxy: I agree 100% with your response to Morris. It’s not unreasonable for either side (working husband or working wife) to want a stay-at-home spouse; but it is unreasonable to insist upon a partner making that sacrifice in today’s uncertain financial times.
starthrower68 says
It’s only unreasonable if both spouses are not on the same page. But they should also be on the same page about wise money management, needs vs. wants, and staying/getting out of debt. People are doing those things every day. I hear many of them call into Dave Ramsey.
Julia says
I think if you want a professional woman or one with an advanced degree, its probably hard to ask. That’s not to say its not impossible, I know women with master’s who never went to work, they also married right out of college. I think people who have rewarding careers and have gotten use to working, its a harder sell. You can hold out for the educated woman who wants to stay at home but you might be waiting forever. Just like you can wait for a man who makes over $250k but you might be waiting forever.
Frimmel says
So if Jerry expects Shari to retain employment (which seems to be a more realistic expectation on his part) would it be okay for him to work less and earn less so that he could be home with the kids while Shari is working? Jerry probably doesn’t see raising children as something to be left to a nanny. Would that compromise on Jerry’s part — working less so his wife could work but the children still aren’t left with a nanny — make him more attractive to Shari?
John says
Goldie @15
250K/year for one person is not the same as 250K/year for a family of three or four.
You stole my thunder. This is exactly what I was going to say. Shari would realize the hard way and then I am sure she would be unhappy. And God help them if the guy loses his job or his business struggles.
As for Jerry, this descriptor in Evans profile of him can be the problem:
he’s had a devil of a time finding any attractive woman who shared his worldview.
Maybe Jerry can find a woman who does meet his worldview who isn’t as beautiful looking. Sounds like Jerry is looking for a 9/10 in addition to sharing his views. I bet if he went for more of a Plain Jane (5/6/ on the looks scale) he would have better luck finding his June Cleaver. She may not be a hottie, but if she is a little bit cute that would work to increase his dating pool potential.
Helen says
Frimmel: I don’t know if that would make him more attractive to someone like Shari, but that sure would make him more attractive to someone like me! That subset of women would be floored by a man willing to stay at home with the kids and take care of other domestic matters – it would be more than we had dreamed of.
Selena, agreed on all points! Kids can be a nightmare to raise nowadays, and it also rubbed me the wrong way that “Jerry” appears to believe that women who would do the SAHM thing are more dumb and unstimulating than women who like to work.
Goldie says
@ Morris, I like this question. It made me think! And here’s what I’ve come up with: it is somewhat reasonable for anyone to make major career-changing decisions (take 5-10 years off work, change careers, stop working altogether) for ourselves. (With the caveat that, if we plan on losing our income, we better have a solid plan for where we’re going to get the money for our living expenses.) Forcing such a decision on someone else, (aka “expecting” them to make that decision), yup, sounds unreasonable to me. Forcing it on a person you’re supposedly in love with, that to me is just bizarre. FTR I spent a total of three years at home with my children and another year working part-time/temp jobs (not by my or my husband’s choice), so I know what it’s like. It’s like Helen said — not having a source of income puts a woman in an extremely vulnerable position, and her husband in a position where he’s tempted to control every aspect of her life. Taking several years off work does massive damage to one’s career. In my case, my career never fully recovered (though, thankfully, it did recover to the point where I made enough that I could afford to leave my husband without taking him to the cleaners). Neither did our marriage. In these three years at home (and a few years after that — even when I was the only one working in our family, he’d already fallen into a habit of treating me like a housewife and it took him a few years to snap out of it), I saw an ugly side of my husband, and that changed everything. I finally left because I was honestly afraid to grow old with that men, after he’d already let me down once when I depended on him. Keep in mind he never expected me to stay at home, and never demanded that I stay at home — I lost my job after my first child was born, and couldn’t find another in our small town with no daycare available for children under 18 months old. In all fairness I have to add that my staying at home was good for the kids. Well, other than the fact that their parents had a dysfunctional marriage and eventually divorced as a result.
marymary says
Goldie
I knew a very successful man who married a beautiful woman. They had two children. She stayed home with the kids until the youngest left for university. He then ran off with a career girl. He doesn’t seem to understand why his ex wife is so pissed!
Morris says
@Vixxy #28 – I agree that it shouldn’t be expected. Dating a professional and later expecting them to be a SAHP would be unreasonable. Someone wanting a SAHP would do better saying that upfront. Again in my circle it wouldn’t be that hard to find a willing partner assuming the breadwinner makes a good living. I’m assuming $120k in a city like NYC wouldn’t cut it though and it would be much harding finding a willing partner.
I am curious though. I know a few ‘career’ women that did a 180 after having a child and deciding they wanted to be SAHMs. Partner made good money so it wasn’t an issue. But wouldn’t that also be unreasonable to expect the partner to let them quit to raise a child just because their partner was successful? Would the husband be ‘selfish’ if he insisted the wife work even though they really didn’t need the money?(Or was willing to cut back?) Again the men I know in this position loved the idea of a SAHM so it wasn’t an issue. I’m just asking.
@Selena #30 – The 14% is only because many couples that want to have a SAHP can’t afford it. I don’t have the statistics but if you check the top 10% of earners I’m guessing you’ll find the statistic much higher.
About the dumb comment. Did you read what I posted on Sheryl Sandberg?(Google her if you don’t know who she is.) Her HARVARD lawyer friends all but one became SAHMs. My guess is those women’s husbands made a good deal of money. So in a city like NYC Jerry’s wants wouldn’t be realistic. But there are a lot of places where it would easily work.
I’m not sure how you can say the two are the same. One wants to be part of a (at a minimum) 14% married relationship.(Again probably higher since he makes a good living.) The other want’s a partner who would be in the top 1% of earners. Not really the same in my book. Striving for what 14% of married couples already have doesn’t seem to unrealistic compared to wanting a top 1% income earner.
@Helen #31 – Agreed. He would do better if he lived in a place where $120k can provide a good living and date women who want to be SAHPs instead of dating a professional and later asking them to quit.
@John #34 – although you didn’t ask me I wanted to comment on he’s had a devil of a time finding any attractive woman who shared his worldview. It would be unreasonable if someone wanted a SAHP supermodel just because they can provide.
@Goldie #36 – Agree. Expecting a career person to quit is unreasonable. I’m just saying there are a lot of people that would love to be a SAHP. He needs to find them and that isn’t unreasonable. Again unless he lives in a expensive city where $120k wouldn’t support a family comfortably.
Morris says
@Selena #30 — I mentioned Sandberg twice so I wanted to make sure I got the reference right. Couldn’t find the exact one in a quick search but did come across this one. ‘Of Yale alumni who had reached their 40s in 2000, she says, only 56% of the women remained in the workforce, compared to 90% of the men.’ Now not all of them became SAHPs obviously but the takeaway is the same. It wouldn’t be hard to find a smart SAHM.
I’ve hard so many times from my female friends about how it would be so nice to have the options to be a SAHM. If it’s not unreasonable to think this way I don’t see why it would be unreasonable to want a SAHP. Unreasonable to expect a profession to quit work? Yes. But not unreasonable to pursue a SAHP from the get go.
Karl R says
Ruby said: (#13)
“Jerry might be looking at only 14% of women, but Shari is looking at a mere 3% of the men. Most of us aren’t quite that rigid.”
Most people are that rigid. They just aren’t aware that they’re that rigid.
Let’s say there’s a 38 year old man (it seems to be a popular age to consider) who doesn’t want any kids. He’s fairly open about his age range (30 to 42). Would you say that he’s being unreasonable in his expectations?
Based on my search of Match.com, he’s down to 12% of the women in that age range (and that’s assuming that 1/3 of the women who describe themselves as “Not Sure” are willing to marry someone who absolutely does not want kids). If he doesn’t want to take a chance on the women who have a significant chance of changing their minds, he’s down below 6% of the women in that age range.
However, if that same man starts considering women in the 43 to 48 range, 45% of them meet his “no kids” criterion. It’s an obvious place to consider compromising.
To each of you who said you can’t relate to Jerry and Shari’s situation, I’d say it’s because you’ve blinded yourself to how closely their situation mirrors your own. It’s only different in the details.
Shari says
Just had to respond because-my name is Shari! (Not the one mentioned in Evan’s scenario-I’m actually a nurse-and would have no problems fulfilling the “traditional” role of wife!) : )
Ruby says
Karl R #40
I get your point that we all do need to make some compromises. Actually, I meant to say that Shari is being more rigid than Jerry, but I probably didn’t make that clear. However, I do think that your 38 year is being unreasonable, because most women in his targeted age range do want kids. Though I’m not sure how you can speculate how rigid most of us are by using a hypothetical example, I think I can safely say that most of us aren’t looking at only potential partners who make over 250k/year. And that is only ONE aspect of Shari’s criteria. We also don’t know if she has height requirements, a certain physical appearance that she prefers, educational background, no prior marriages, etc. Her actual dating pool could be even tinier.
Selena says
@Morris #38
I agree the 14% stat would be higher if the lower income women who wanted to stay home with their childen were able to. Headline: Single Mom of 3 hits 56 mill Jackpot! Says Mom: Finally I can quit Walmart and be home with my kids!
It also wouldn’t surprise me if SAHP was more prevalent in top 10% income households. I further would not be surprised if said households also had STAFF. Nannies, maids, housekeepers. Which isn’t quite the same stay-at-home-parenting I described in #30. Might be “Shari’s” version of SAHM though.
The Yale stat does seem high to me. Perhaps the graduates married into the top 10%? Work “behind the scenes” on their husbands political campaigns?
Back to your original question of it being unreasonable expectation to find a woman who would be a SAHP – for our hypothetical Jerry it would seem to be because he is attracted to women WHO DON’T WANT TO DO IT. As hypothetical Shari is attracted to captains of industry who either DON’T WANT HER, or don’t have time for her and a family. The parallel is that it hasn’t occured to either that they may have to adjust their expectations if they want a family life. Compromise as EMK puts it. You do see that was the point of this little exercise don’t you?
Rose says
Welcome to reality.
Goldie says
@ Selena #43
“The Yale stat does seem high to me. Perhaps the graduates married into the top 10%? Work “behind the scenes” on their husbands political campaigns?”
I saw similar statistics mentioned on another online source the other day, and the quote that I saw might have an answer to this question.
“other research has shown that graduates from top schools are more likely to come from wealthy families and to marry men who also attend prestigious universities and come from similarly wealthy families. That could give them more financial flexibility to opt out.”
So, yeah. The 1% intermarrying and living on the % of their parents’ capital. They can work if they’re so inclined, but they don’t have to. Nothing to see here, move along folks…
It's you says
56 percent seems high to you? I’m not rich (we do ok) but I live in an area of the country that frequently makes the top 10 wealthiest counties list. From what I see the majority of mothers still work. They certainly don’t have to but they do.
Traditionally well educated women left the workforce after having children was because it was too difficult too balance both.
If the study looked at Yale graduates in their 40s in 2000 they would have likely graduated from Yale in the 80s. in the 80s and 90s employers were both more biased towards women of reproductive age and totally uninterested in any kind of flexibility.
My mom was a working mother with young kids in the 80s and I remember how hard it was for her. She did end up taking time off at various points for that very reason.
Ive got it far easier than she ever did.
Helen says
Not to go into philosophical discussions on this: I think that what determines whether a wish is “unreasonable” is not just the percentage of people who’d then be a potential match, but also how reasonable the wish itself was in the first place, independent of how many people match it.
In this case, I’d argue that if a man insisted he didn’t want kids, that’s a perfectly reasonable request, regardless of what proportion of women feel the same way. Why? Because life is so dramatically different if one is childless vs. if one has children. Likewise, I also think it’s reasonable for a man or a woman to say that s/he wants only a partner that wants kids.
What I don’t find reasonable is if a person like Shari, who makes $250K, insists on a mate who earns that amount or higher. Actually, I don’t find this a reasonable insistence REGARDLESS of how much the woman herself makes. Really, you can’t live with a spouse who makes $225K? Try telling that to 99.999% of Americans, let alone the rest of the world. Apart from the nuttiness of such a wish, these people don’t seem to be aware of the phenomenon of economies of scale. Living with another person almost always increases disposable income, unless that person earns nothing or nearly nothing.
And enough commenters (myself included) have remarked on how Jerry’s wish is not unreasonable, as long as he doesn’t force his wife to stay home. I would say that if one wishes for a parent to raise kids at home the first several years, cares a lot about the domestic environs, and doesn’t have the disposable income to hire others to help, then it’s reasonable to at least wish for a SAH spouse.
JustMe says
In my geographical location, and considering societal influences, at least half of all moms are stay at home moms, regardless of income level. Most don’t live a $250K OR $120k lifestyle either. Being a SAHP is actually encouraged. So I don’t think Jerry would have trouble finding someone who would be willing to do this.
Agreed that being a SAHM hurts. My ex and I decided to live on one income and have one of us at home. That was me. Then, 18 years later, when he left, I had only just rejoined the work force. No 401k, just starting out. However, I worked hard at my job and was promoted, went back to school and just finished my bachelors degree and today, I make more than him. Feel GREAT to be providing for myself and my kids!!
About the having too high expectations debate that we always have; we talk about women and their rigid and unrealistic checklists a lot. Here is mine: there has to be an attraction. He has to have integrity, a sense of humor and be able to be silly or fun and accepting. There has to be some level of intelligence. My age range is 5 years either side. As far as income, he has to be able to manage his money and be able to provide for his responsibilities.
I really can’t think of what I would eliminate from that list. Maybe that is too rigid and I just don’t see it. I really don’t personally know any women who have a HUGE list of things. Most women I know are usually happy to have a guy interested in them because most men in my age range (in my area) are usually trying to date 10 to 15 years younger.
Tina says
Ok, how is even possible these women with 250K/year or something (which i guess are also smart women) to think that finding love is related with making money?
Brian says
You hit the nail on the head with that last page, Evan. I think that in this scenario Jerry will have a much easier time finding someone than Shari. Women are getting more and more successful relative to their male counterparts but they still put themselves into traditional gender roles even if they don’t see it. What I mean is that she might be successful but her man always has to be more successful. The more money or education a man has the larger his dating pool becomes. The inverse is true for women. Jerry can meet a woman who is more successful than him as long as she is willing to conform to his idea of a relationship, which may not be guaranteed but is certainly possible. There is no comparable solution for her. Good post.
It's you says
The solution for Shari would be to accept a man who makes less and live a simpler lifestyle.
Maybe this doesn’t apply to Shari but many women want a man who makes equal or more to avoid the headaches that come with dating and marrying a man who makes less than them. It may be less of an issue today but its been drummed into the heads of women in my generation that making more than him will eventually cause problems.
As i said it could be less of an issue today. I have several friends who make more than their husbands but I have more who insisted on marrying men who made more. A few I suspect even consciously or unconsciously held back their own careers to ensure he remained the higher earner.
Nicole says
Evan, Readers
let’s assume that Shari accepts to date a guy who earns less than she does.
But … What if the guy (despite he’s attracted to her) in the long run does not accept that she earns more than he does or is never accepting to have holidays or anything else paid by her?
I cite this as an example, because I know meny men and also dated guys like this. And I am not talking about women earning 250k per year, I’m talking about people in the 35-45k per year income.
Guys are attracted to successful women, but still keep a traditional mentality when it comes to earning power.
It's you says
whether they still do or not these days, gen x women have been conditioned to believe it’s a recipe for disaster.
Joe says
@JustMe
“I really don’t personally know any women who have a HUGE list of things.”
That’s because you’re not dating women and hearing the myriad seemingly trivial reasons they reject men. (I say this with humor, because I’m not angry about it – rather just observing and learning my own lessons from it – I have my own unrealistic list to consider).
That you live somewhere that “half” of women consider being a SAHM acceptable, and they don’t live “$120k lifestyles”, then you’re not likely to meet the women that Evan writes for. Believe me – I’ve met and dated them – in every big city they seem to be the norm rather than the exception. It can be a challenge to get through their list and find if they have a value system that matches mine.
Again, I’m not blaming or even angry about it – just trying to figure out how to work with the challenges of the times.
It's you says
Rest assured, men in those big cities who earn good salaries have their own lists too. And you don’t see it because you’re not dating men. That list might be much shorter than women’s, but bottom line if you’re not young and hot, the short list can be just as challenging to fulfill.
michelle says
I was watching a television show about dating last week, and the girl vying for the guy’s attention told him happily she had a list of 50 things she had to have in a man, and lucky him, he met 25 of them already! 🙂
JustMe says
Joe
I would say you are very right in that I don’t date women. I also think that I tend to be friends with people who are more like me. The women you describe seem very high maintenance. And high maintenance is high maintenance no matter the relationship.
I do have one friend who has a huge list of musts haves. she is very critical and always wants things, even trivial things, her way. And she is perputually unhappy both in her marriage and with the “other” side relationships. I have to take her in small doses.
Ruby says
Michelle #52
Alot of “Law of Attraction” info I’ve read – and even some dating advice – tells women to make a long list of qualities they want a man to have, to carry this list with them at all times and to refer to it. Law of Attraction proponents believe that making this list and actively thinking about it will help you to attract the right person into your life, and they swear that it works. Not saying I believe this, but it’s common advice that flies in the face of other suggestions to “ditch the list”.
michelle says
I didn’t say not to have a list, I’m saying 50 things is toooooo long for any other human being to be able to meet every one of them. (I’m not against writing/journaling about our past experiences and what we liked and didn’t like about past partners to keep focused on what we’re looking for, just not 50 things!)And how meaningful can such a long list be? When really at it’s core, it’s about sexual/physical attraction, the ability to be true friends (you ‘get’ each other) and having similar goals, beliefs and values.
Ruby says
Actually, my comment about lists might be more suited to the post “How Do I Make Sense of All The Different Dating Advice Out There?“?
Roman says
You know, This bachelor’s degree requirement is really a very silly thing. Take me for example. I am a guy. I speak nine languages, travel to europe, asia, oceania once a year, at least. I have studied for 20 years in higher education, but I have no bachelors degree due to my full time job which pays for my school. I have four associates degrees, some of which were required by my job, others which are required for my progression to the bachelors in a highly competitive field that I’ve been striving for since I graduated high school. I have enough credits to be a doctor twice over! I am many time more intelligent than these “guys” with bachelors degree, as it seems they give those away now a days to anyone who can afford to go to school. I am more intelligent than these guys or women who are so called “intelligent”. But I am consitently turned down because of that, god knows how many women have passed me over because of this. I say “C’est la vie”, they really don’t know what they’re missing. I’ve had relationships with women who are doctors, lawyers and more, but they are all long distance, not here in USA. Reason: Bachelors degree requirement.
I defer to my Grandfather’s advise who was a doctor, extemely intelligent and smart yet humble he would say “If I don’t know the answer ask your grandmother, she would know it”. She didn’t have any degree, nor did she have any schooling whatever, in those times women were granted very little right under dictatorship, but she studied, and knew MORE than my grandfather!
JoeK says
@JustMe #53
“I do have one friend who has a huge list of musts haves.”
Yep – I was like that, until I realized how useless it was. One of the more profound lessons in life. As soon as I focused on only about 3 or 4 (essential) items, my dating life really changed,
JB says
At Roman#58 : Just say you HAVE a Bachelors Degree. No one will ever know the difference or call you on it. I’ve been doing it for years.
Peter says
I’m a dinosaur. I’m with Jerry. I think that a mother of small children should stay at home. It doesn’t mean forever. 14% at any one time suggests that overall rather a lot of women do it because most people in the UK seem to have had Mum at home when they were very small. A common or garden professional (lawyer, doctor, nurse, teacher, local government officer, bank manager) can get a restart quite quickly. The public sector, the largest employer of women, has formal re-engagement schemes. A career break, voluntary or otherwise, is not held against women as it is against men. Shari is attempting to be a man. Men who pursue such a career are desirable to women because they demonstrate status and competitive competence. That’s why, at some level, they do it. Career success on this level makes Shari intimidating if not unattractive. If Shari has real ability, good luck to her. She’ll be Miss Shari and her nieces and nephews will mourn their Aunty. If she is doing it for ambition, she deserves her fate.
The daughters of the English aristocracy are noted for marrying much older men. (think of Diana). The young men of equivalent status sometimes marry down so aristocratic young ladies have to spread their nets wide to catch enough high status males. Rather what my fiancee is doing given our age gap = she’s 25 years younger. On the other hand she’s wealthier than me in terms of assets. Shari might maintain her income target and marry older or foreign or adjust her status target and find a struggling creative artist to support. Having it all isn’t on the menu. I am over 60. Most of the women I dated at college never married. I checked them out after leaving my wife. They were picky at university (outnumbered 5:1) and couldn’t believe the men would disappear but they were driven by their parents ambition from the beginning so pursued their careers first. Who is Shari doing this for? Herself? Her parents? Feminism? Money as an end in itself instead of babies?
It's you says
your comment reeks of sexism.
The public sector in the US does not have a formal re-engagement scheme for stay at home mothers, so I’m going to assume you are referring to UK/Europe (using the word scheme was a dead giveaway).
Liz says
I think Jerry should do what Evan suggests women do: go for a 3-6 in attractiveness and a 10 in cleaning and cooking. If he stops looking for the most attractive women, I’m sure he will have no problem finding the one of a-zillion women who would to stay home, live off of her husband,, and have a bunch of kids. How is he not finding one?
AB says
Hi Evan, I am sort-of in Shari’s shoes and I think the idea of getting Jerry and Shari to compromise is great. However, I wonder if your description of the Shari’s in the world is accurate. I am a female software developer in my 30s. My compensation is in the 6 figures and I realized long ago that expecting a future partner to earn as much as I do reduces my dating pool considerably. So, I have always been open to dating any men regardless of their income (I only care that they have ambition and drive to excel in their profession).
The only reason why I think the Jerrys of the world and I can never forge a workable relationship is that our beliefs about male and female gender roles are polar opposites. For Jerry to want a marriage with traditional gender roles he has to have some values that are traditional. For me to work in a male-dominated field and earn a good living I have to have some progressive, maybe feminist ideas about gender roles. Even if Jerry could live with a woman who works and earns more than him, he will have other beliefs about the role of men and women that I have probably struggled to escape from.
I think this is a good immediate solution to help the traditional man and modern woman compromise, but they will not succeed as a couple because ideological differences about gender roles may simply be too great.
JT says
If you want children of your own and you’re in your 30s, you need to hurry up and find someone to have them with. I don’t see any other option because a woman’s fertility decreases significantly in her 30s, and so does the probability of birth defects.
As far as the role of men and women, I’d like to challenge you on whether you are correct about traditional gender roles being sexist. If you want your children to be healthy, you’ll have to breastfeed them and give them skin-to-skin contact full time for a while. You could go back to work after a long leave if your husband wants to be a stay-at-home dad (daycare at that age is out of the question if you want children with good mental health), but what if you want to have two children? Then you’d have to take another long leave after a year or two. That’s why it’s traditionally made more sense for men to focus on making as much money as they can. And there’s nothing wrong with that. It’s biology.
Monica says
Thank you for posting this. Compromise is key. However, most people can’t compromise because they’re often unaware of what’s driving them. When you don’t understand the core of what’s driving your wants/needs, it’s harder to find solutions that satisfy more than one parameter.
Do men like Jerry think smart women are content to be at home? Kids, while precious, aren’t very intellectually stimulating. Many very intelligent women are, and many of them do, return to work. They’re driven to get things done in the outside world.
Also, do women like Shari think all that money is going only to them? Like her husband isn’t going to want to spend his hard earned money on himself? Or like kids aren’t expensive? Even if her husband makes 250K a year, she’s probably still not living a 250k lifestyle as she knows it. One person with a 250K salary is different from two adults plus kids.
manualal says
Well statistics do seem to indicate that smart women are more likely to stay home with kids, unless driven by feminist ideology. Just look at the alumni records of any Ivy league university. Some thing like 65% of the women are either SAHM or working part time, 15 years after graduation.
While I have nothing against women who are career driven and ambitious, I would not marry one of them. Simply because there is no point in a relationship where both people are just rushing through life without time for each other.
Belonging to the traditional school as Jerry, I think it is very important for the mother to be with the children at home till they start school. Even after that the mother should ideally work part time (unless financial situation dictates otherwise). I was always clear when looking for a wife, that she should be smart (mine graduated near the top of her class in engineering), be reasonable looking (I was not into “hot women”, other than for one night stands), and understand it would be her responsibility to run the house i.e a full time career was not an option after kids. It was not easy to find such a woman, but it is not too difficult either.
Shari will have a tough time finding a solution to her problem, because she is thinking like a man and most alpha men want femininity, which will complement their drive / ambition. They are unlikely to go for a copy of themselves. I remember breaking up with a long term girl friend, earning 200k a year, who could not believe that I wanted out, specially when she offered to pay off my not insubstantial Ivy league MBA student loans after marrying her ! My view was, I can always make the money, but I cannot spend my life with a man-like woman. Shari should, in my opinion, go for men for are more likely to take a supporting role to her career driven personality. But they will most likely be earning no where near 250k a year.
It's you says
“While I have nothing against women who are career driven and ambitious…”
No you just call them “men” and project that they’ll be bad wives.
I hope you and your mail order slave-wife will be very happy together. That is before she gets citizenship, files papers, and walks away with all of your stuff.
See, I can spout sterotypical nonsense too.
Gideon says
No you don’t. Just the other day I was at the Beverly Hills Hotel, The Polo Lounge with a friend who had married a beautiful amazing gal from Norway for 9 years. they have 5 kids. His previous wife wasted his time by keep postponing the issues of having kids. Money and Dogs are never substitution for kids. My friend comes from big Jewish family and his poor mother dead without meeting any of his kids, just because his previous American wife was heavily confused just like our girl Shari here.
123willow says
Jerry and I have the same problem: Each of us lives in La La Land! I am intelligent, educated,love children & animals, would love to lavish attention on the right man. However, I am also bipolar (not diagnosed correctly util forties) and ADHD. I haven’t been able to attain the financial stability to live in a community where a man worthy of me can be found. I need a man who is bright, funny, kind & loves animals. A little elaboration on ‘kind’ – doesn’t speak rudely to or about waitresses, fat people, etc.
Helen says
I was a stay-at-home mom to two children for about 1o years-until they entered kindergarten. Since then, I have worked part-time, still do. I have been married for almost 26 years. Rearing my children and being a dutiful wife has been my career, of which I take tremendous pride. I have kept and warm and inviting home and prepared great meals for many years….my greatest joy comes from my family who are never short of praise for my skills in the kitchen and my decorative touch in our home…my daughter wants for herself what she grew up in. I am grateful to my husband for his ability to provide the gift of being a traditional wife and he is grateful for the support to have built his career with a safe place to retreat at the end of the day. I am proud of being a wife and mother, working part-time pays for college. It has worked beautifully for us. I look at our family and know full well we did it the right way. There are no regrets, only complete unadulterated satisfaction, pride, and confidence in decisions made. I think our society would benefit from similar choices…money will never buy or substitute for some things in this life…the really important things like family.
Thinker says
Jerry is described as “he’s good-hearted, generous and loyal” and “He shows his love through acts of service” Both statements could be applied as toward others, ie – generous toward others, loyal toward friends, acts of service (towards/for others)
Then you describe Shari as “She shows her love by working hard, achieving her dreams, planning and taking care of business. Not that different from Jerry, actually.”
How is that not that different from Jerry? Most of Jerry’s attributes are toward/for others and most of Shari attributes are toward/for herself. Those two are polar opposites.
Brandon says
Your right about a lot of things and your compromise is very diplomatic. However I believe you are forgetting that the western ideals have not reached all of the world yet. As a traditional man when the time comes I will be looking outside of western countries for a wife. More particularly places like Thailand, India, and other south,east Asian countries. It’s not that I can’t appreciate independence but for someone I’d have to spend the rest of my life with I don’t plan on compromising on my core beliefs when there are other viable options.
Lisa says
I do not want a man that makes more money than I do. I could care less what money he makes, but he does and I think that’s the flaw you miss. Jerry may compromise on many things but a woman that makes 150k more than him no way. And if she is willing to stay home that’s great but his income is not “extra” of she’s living single on 250k they will raise a family on 100k. Sure you can cut expenses nit people’s bills are the same, student loans debt. I would willingly stay home and care for children of a man could support the family. But I think with this woman’s personality she could never be happy with him or he with her. You are asking them both do change their personalities too much on too deep of a level. They are too polar opposite. Honestly if they live in a city I think she’s got a better shot than he does. His woman does exist just not in big cities or of she does she has already likely been married. He would do better in small town USA or the south. These women are in my small town many of the where I grew up lots of them. I think both may be in the wrong city and looking I’m the wrong places. I so agree with compromise I don’t agree with fundamental personality changes.
Carro says
Jerry reminds me a lot of my brother. And Shari reminds me, in some ways, of myself, although I don’t make anywhere close to $250k a year. Nor do I go on international trips or spend time at the spa… or date hedge fund guys, for that matter 🙂
My brother is 38 years old with an MBA. Single with no kids. He owns a successful business. All he wants is a wife and kids. At least four kids, to be exact. We were raised by a SAHM, so that’s what he thinks “normal” is and that’s exactly what he wants in a future wife.
The problem is that he also wants a smart, highly educated career woman – his equal, he says. I’ve been telling him for years that if he continues to insist on having both in a partner, he’s going to have a hard time finding a woman who has invested all of the time and effort to earn a Master’s degree or a doctorate, and who has climbed the rungs of her career, who then is going to be willing to forsake all that to be a SAHM to a house full of kids.
I’ve suggested to him that he needs to focus on finding his complement rather than his clone. He’s an alpha, so he needs a beta – specifically, a beta who can help him be a better alpha.
I suggested to him that he consider dating woman who maybe don’t have college degrees, but who are nonetheless very smart and have a lot to offer, and already WANT to be SAHMs. Or perhaps women who aren’t on a high-octane career path.
Nope. He’s holding out for the highly educated professional career woman who is harboring a secret desire to leave it all behind and be a SAHW and M.
There are probably some women out there who fit that description. But as I’ve told him many times, when deciding who to marry, we don’t get to choose from all the people out there. We choose from those that are in our social group – whether that’s via personal acquaintances, online dating, etc. And so far, he hasn’t unearthed anyone in his social group that aligns with what he’s looking for.
I think as he gets older he’ll compromise a bit on what he wants. He’ll have to. Because those that refuse to compromise get nothing at all. That’s a far worse outcome.
It’s tough. We want what we want, even when those desires often really conflict in our lives.
But who wants to sit across the table on a first date with a guy (or a girl) and pick up on the fact that the person you’re sitting across from already has a pre-determined punch list that any partner of theirs has to live up to – ex., must be willing to be a SAHM. Must have a career. Must have a college degree. Must be of my religion. Must be at least (blank) tall. Must be of my race. Must be very attractive. Must be thin. Must be no more than two years older than me. Must want to live in the country/suburbs/city. Etc. Etc. Etc.
It’s totally fine to have preferences for a partner, and even a few non-negotiables. It’s another thing entirely to have this complete role organized in our minds that we expect people to want to audition for, and then get hurt when people understandably don’t want to do that.
As for me, I can identify with Shari in some respects, although I’m far from wealthy. I’m in my mid-30’s. I’m a doctoral candidate at a prestigious (read: work like a dog) university who aspires to work in management-level positions at international NGOs and IGOs.
It’s taken me YEARS of hard work and sacrifice to get where I am… and the hard work and sacrifices aren’t over yet. I’m single, and I’ve been so for awhile now. I’m okay with that.
I’m open to having a husband and being a mother. But I don’t want either within the next 3-4 years because quite honestly, there’s no room in my life for that at this point. I made a commitment to finish a doctoral program, and I’m also working. I have to see those things through first.
And I’m not the type of person to half-ass things. If I have a boyfriend, I want him to be among my highest priorities, or it’s not worth it to me to have a boyfriend at all. Same goes with having a family.
I also realize that my age (mid 30s) may mean that I’ll never achieve a family of my own. It does make me a bit sad at times. But if that’s how it turns out, then I’ll throw myself into being a fantastic aunt to my nieces and nephews. Or perhaps I’ll become qualified for foster care. Or maybe I might adopt a hard-to-place child when I’m at an older age. I’m determined to be open to a variety of ways of building, and having, a family.
These are the choices I’ve made thus far. I’ve never once believed that women can have it all. That’s bullshit. No one can have it all, and, sadly, life doesn’t owe us anything.
But we do have choices. When we’re thoughtful and honest about what we really want – what’s really important to us – making the right choices at the right time is the gateway to getting a lot of what we really desire in life.
My choices have led me to also be open to NOT ever marrying or having kids. This is because I realize that if I want kids or a husband, I have to actually create that reality for myself, and not just expect it to happen with minimal or no effort from me.
But if it ever worked out where I found myself contemplating marriage with a man, I would make it very clear to him from the beginning that I have no intention, ever, of being a SAHM. I have all the respect in the world for SAHMs – my beloved mother was one – but I know that that is absolutely not for me. I want at least a part-time job every day of my life until I’m too old to work.
Nor is being Suzy Homemaker right for me (again, no disrespect meant to the Suzy Homemaker’s out there. I actually admire what you do. I just know I don’t have those stripes).
I’ll do a little cooking, and a little cleaning. But those would be side jobs, and not the sole reason for my existence in the marriage.
If I had kids, I would want to take the primary role of raising them in conjunction with my husband. But I’m not deluding myself. I don’t have all of the skills needed to be a great parent. So I would want my kids to be exposed to other caring adults who possess skills I might lack. I don’t want to be a SAHM and have it all be on me.
I’m under no illusions that I alone possess everything needed for my kids to become happy, healthy, and successful human beings. On the contrary; I would welcome the help from other well-placed people in my children’s lives, whether that came via the kids’ relatives, a cherished day care program, family friends, teachers, mentors, sports coaches, doctors, etc. I honestly view parenting as being a team-based effort; ideally with the parents being the air-traffic controllers, but with lots of other valuable people on the “flight crew.”
When I date guys, if I determine that he’s absolutely dead set on getting (a) a SAHW or M; or (b) biological children (which I’m not sure I want – I think I would prefer to adopt); then I quickly and politely end the relationship. I’m not going to argue with him or try and change his mind about what he wants. But if there’s no flexibility on those two key issues, then we’re not compatible.
To be clear, there’s nothing wrong with a guy wanting those things (or a woman wanting those things, for that matter). Nothing at all. But I may not be able to give him what he wants, especially with the biological kids. If two people aren’t in lockstep about that, then that’s truly an irreconcilable difference.
I know my way of handling these situations may leave something to be desired. I’m constantly learning how much I want to do it better and smarter than I have in the past.
To be blatantly honest, my fear in any relationship is that the guy is going to look at me and think only about what I could possibly give him – ex., that I could cook; that I could clean; that I could take care of him; that I could be a mother to his children… but that he’ll overlook the other parts of me that are vital to who I am, and that, at times, run contrary to the traditionalist ideas of what a woman “should” be.
I have a mind. I have intelligence. I have ambition and drive. I have unusual hobbies I want to pursue. I want to paddle my own canoe, although admittedly at times I wouldn’t mind if someone was in my boat with me. I have goals and dreams that I badly want to accomplish. And I never want to be subservient to ANYONE.
My problem is that I’ve never figured out how to reconcile this inner defiance with also being a wife and mother. Both are important to me, but for very different reasons. I don’t know yet how to make them co-exist.
I know I don’t want to shrink in a relationship. Like most people (I suspect), I want to grow, and to help a partner grow, in ways that eclipse everything we previously thought was possible in love, life, and happiness.
I’ve been in relationships in different formats in my life where I was sidelined, suppressed, and expected to live up to a certain ideal that wasn’t reflective at all of who I really was. I don’t worry that every new guy will subject me to this. If I did, I wouldn’t date at all.
Instead, my fear is ME – that I’ll make the wrong choice, out of convenience or obligation, and that it won’t be true to myself and what I believe in. That I’ll classify the wrong things as being “expendable.”
This isn’t a problem with men. It’s a problem with me. It’s about me needing to learn how to get to a place in relationships where what I want and what I can give and receive are all much better aligned; rather than always stumbling on what’s behind me.
Okay, I’ve gone on long enough, you think? 🙂
Cheers to all of the readers of this blog who are also trying their best, and to Evan for stimulating such a great conversation!
Suzanne says
Though I have my career I want to settle the down and raise a family and have a man support me in this role but it is really difficult to be open about this without scaring them away! I think you are made to feel as a woman that you shouldn’t want this also men might feel you are just looking for someone to support you. I would be delighted if a man said he was looking for a stay at home mother! I’m surprised Gerry is having trouble I think more women want this than would admit to it. I think Evans advice to let the man lead and relax into the relationship without trying to control or change a man or demand stuff is actually freeing and must be nice for men too. Then to threaten to leave if not moving forward at a certain point. Men and women are different that’s the attraction, it annoys me when people get on their high horses about it; if I wanted my romantic partner to beg die mike a woman I’d be a lesbian!
ABCXYZ says
Simply put, if I were Jerry I would not settle for any female unless she was willing to accept the traditional role putting their marriage first and children second, which was the way it was for centuries … key point being, have children however breast feed them, nurture them, teach them, love them, making THIS their career coupled with being a wife. Women did this world-wide for the most part prior to ~ late 60s or early 70s. So do the past 5 decades of chaotic family-life define Truth OR does the rest of human history for thousands of years? Children easily answer this IF given a say as to how they wish to be raised.
laurey says
If you find a little older version of Jerry, give him my info!! As long as he doesn’t mind commuting from the country where I would happily run the homestead!
A says
Nothing in the post allures to Sheri being materialistic… such a typical response to a woman wanting to follow dreams that are different then a husband and child.
JT says
Terrible advice. A woman who is 36 has very little fertility left. He should just find a younger woman and be direct about what he wants so he isn’t wasting any time dating women who don’t want the same thing.