“The End of Men” by Hanna Rosin – review by Evan Marc Katz

"The End of Men" by Hanna Rosin - review by Evan Marc Katz

I know, I’m a little late to the game in reviewing Hanna Rosin’s “The End of Men”, which came out on September 11, 2012. That’s what happens when your day job is coaching smart, strong, successful women and your night job is being a good husband and father. And so it goes.

As you may know, I’m a big reader, but tend to only read books for pleasure. If they feel too much like homework, I’m not going to bother. Which is generally why I have a lot of trouble reading most relationship books. Too close to home. But when it comes to accessible, scientifically researched, mainstream nonfiction, I’m a sucker. I’ve read most of the seminal books on behavioral economics like “Predictably Irrational”, “Nudge”, “How We Decide” and “Thinking, Fast and Slow”. And I really enjoy books that talk about larger societal issues revolving around gender and relationships: “Marry Him” by Lori Gottlieb, “Committed” by Elizabeth Gilbert, “Unhooked Generation” by Jillian Straus. Which brings me to “The End of Men”.

Women have become more traditionally masculine. Men haven’t become more traditionally feminine.

Rosin starts with some unassailable premises: women are gaining ground in education and the workplace, gender roles are fluid, and both genders are confused about what this means.

So is the author, I would suggest.

“Men could move more quickly into new roles now open to them – college graduate, nurse, teacher, full-time father – but for some reason, they hesitate…Men do a tiny bit more housework and child care than they did 40 years ago, while women do vastly more paid work. The working mother is now the norm. The stay at home father is still a front page anomaly”.

This is true. But Rosin’s built-in suggestion to men is a bit one-sided: the answer to these dilemmas is for men to change. Rosin points out that “women have become more masculine in their traits – assertive, independent, willing to take a stand. Men have not come towards the center, seeing themselves as tender or gentle.”

Yes, and that’s my point. Women have become more traditionally masculine. Men haven’t become more traditionally feminine. And so we find ourselves at an impasse – one that we’ve broached many times on this blog. Women’s answer to men: you need to change. Men’s reply to women: we like the way we are! Accept us.

Screaming back and forth at each other – as we often do – doesn’t serve a purpose. In a perfect world, we’ll try to meet in the middle. But Rosin spends a lot more time reflecting – on how men are falling behind than she does telling women how to adjust to the new world order. To be fair, this new world order, with women at the top, is the central premise of the book. And, to be fair, Rosin does a good job weaving a narrative based on anecdotes and statistics that support her case. Except they don’t entirely do so.

For example, “Among college graduates 25-39, women make up 45.9%.” Women earn 60% of masters, half of all law and medical degrees, and 44% of all business degrees.”

I find this information to be amazing. Inspiring. Heartwarming. Groundbreaking. Yet Rosin is arguing that these statistics represent not just the rise of women but the “end of men”.

Huh?

That’s not the end of men. It’s the BEGINNING of true equality! Now, for the first time, there will be just as many women who will be able to choose men because they are cute, kind, and loyal, not because simply because they’re educated and wealthy. Now, for the first time, a woman who makes $300K/year will have no trouble picking up the tab for a lavish European vacation with her boyfriend who makes $50K, just as men have been doing for their wives for a hundred years. This is good news, and it requires two shifts:

1) Men have to not feel emasculated when there are many women are smarter or wealthier.

2) Women have to not look down on men who are less educated or less successful. Just as men (like me) don’t look down on our stay-at-home mom wives; we cherish them for what they DO bring to the table – kindness, generosity, warmth, laughter, companionship, love, sex, and 100 other things that don’t involve money.

The author continues much of the book on this path, “The number of women with six figure incomes is rising at a faster pace than it is for men. 1 in 18 women working full time earn 100K or more in 2009, a jump of 14 percent over 2 years.”

The hard-driving businesswoman may mute her natural tenderness and vulnerability, two traits that men find both attractive and accessible.

Rosin calls this “the last gasp of a vanishing age” – when men had all the top jobs and wealth. But this is progress. This is as it should be. The number of women with six figure incomes SHOULD be rising at a faster rate because there’s a lot further for women to come to break thru the glass ceiling. Again, this doesn’t represent the end of men. It represents the closest we’ve come yet to a gender-blind work environment – and even that is far away.

Of course, I’m leading with my criticisms, not my praise, but Rosin does take an even hand – not just talking about the “end of men” but shining the light on the contradictions of the modern, smart, strong, successful woman – who makes $200K, but still wants a man to make more. Not only is this a challenging crossroads for women, but Rosin points out another dilemma that comes with equality: the hard-driving businesswoman persona may mute her natural tenderness and vulnerability, two traits that men find both attractive and accessible.

“With sex, as with most areas of life, women tend to preserve a core of their old selves – romantic, tender, vulnerable – even while taking on new sexual personas. The women at business school no longer needed a man to support them, but that didn’t mean they didn’t want one. And years of practice putting up their guard made it hard for them to know when to let it down. As Meghan Daum writes in My Misspent Youth, “the worst sin imaginable was not cruelty or bitchiness or even professional failure but vulnerability.”

Such shifts have only made the already murky dating world even murkier, as gender roles get blurry. And women who choose to put career first do quite well. Reports Rosin, “There is hardly any earning gap between women who don’t have children and men. Mostly, what happens is obvious: women with children start cutting back hours or seeking out situations that are more family friendly.”

So, if you’re a woman who chooses to go all-in on your career, no one’s judging you – certainly not on this blog. I would just hope that you follow the wisdom of the men who do the same; choose a partner who puts the relationship first. The high-power women interviewed in the book came to the same conclusion; a less ambitious husband enables a successful partnership. Writes Rosin, “The powerful women I spoke to all admitted being utterly dependent on their husbands. All described this as the first rule of success: “Choose your spouse carefully…”

Rosin and I both agree that the rise of women necessitates change. And while I disagree that this signals “The End of Men”, I do agree that men have to come to terms with a new world in which, potentially, 50% of the women they meet will make more money. But since this blog is for women, my directive isn’t to tell men how they need to change; it’s to remind you that you can only control your own actions and reactions. Thus, the onus is on you to adjust to the new world order that you’ve created.

Concludes Rosin, “If diversity is good in the workplace, then it’s also good at home. In a massive Dept of Education study, a child’s grades were more closely correlated to how many times the dad showed up at a school event than any other factor. Children with involved fathers measure as having higher IQs by age three, higher self esteem and in the case of daughters, grow up to be less promiscuous.”

And if you’re a woman working 60-hour weeks and pulling in a half million a year, you know what kind of Dad will be a perfect fit? Not the high-powered brain surgeon/marathon runner, but the high-school English teacher who makes $60K, gets home at 4:30, has summers off and pulls in a generous pension.

That’s the model for success. Which means no more clamoring for the male version of yourself.

Do what successful men have done for eons; marry “down” a little bit and find a happy marriage with complementary (not necessarily “equal”) roles.

1
1

Join 7 Million Readers

And the thousands of women I've helped find true love. Sign up for weekly updates for help understanding men.

I hate spam as much as you do, therefore I will never sell, rent, or give away your email address.

Join our conversation (187 Comments).
Click Here To Leave Your Comment Below.

Comments:

  1. 31
    Rose

    I have actually observed a lot more feminine energy men online and out there in real life in general over the years. More so with the younger generation of men being passive in nature. Now I do not know if that is just to do with women becoming more masculine in their energy and behavior, or if it is also to do with female hormones in the water due to female birth control and traces from plastics containers in processed food/ drinks/cosmetic containers for shampoo etc.
    Correlation is not a cause.
    In real life and online I have come across three types of men.
    Men who’s energy is coming at me and towards me in a good way which feels great and just feels wonderful to be around. And I feel safe with. And approach me with genuine enthusiasm and interest about me as a person rather than surface level social chit chat, or gossip about other people.
    Men who’s energy is coming at me and towards me who tell me all about themselves and their relationships, who are usually complaining about women and past relationships with some real horror stories. These men do not feel good to be around deep inside. On the surface they are full of life and energy almost to the point of being manic, busy busy busy. And appear to want me to be their therapist and want help.I feel open on the surface to this but deep inside something doesn’t sit right and I feel scared to be in their company for long and certainly not one to one.
    And then men who’s energy is very passive an inward energy which feels feminine to me who appear shy and the womens energy goes towards them. Usually appear to be nice natured. But appear to be reluctant to take the lead with women.
    And on an observational level, there does appear to be a decline in the first group.
    And appear to be more go getting masculine energy women out there.
    What anyone draws from this I do not know.
    Draw your own conclusions.
    All I know is I like men out of the first group, that feels yummy and good.
     
     
     
     

  2. 32
    Michelle

    #15, Lia

    Very well said, exactly.  I would also add assertive, in other words, if there is something that’s bothering us as women, to speak up.  I know that sounds easy, but often is challenging.  Basically, our happiness is most important, so we can give partner
    Karmic

    Totally agree with what you’re saying. 
    RW
    Sounds like you get it!  As time goes on and challenges occur and life changes, keep your wise words of wisdom in mind.

  3. 33
    Rose

     
    Karmic Equation
    “What book is worth $20? (He’s not a book lover like me). Why are you spending all MY money on this nonsense.”
    I feel curious about this and would like to explore.
    So what about a stay at home mum who is looking after THEIR children.
    Do you think it is only the mans money in those circumstances and the women should get permission on if she wants to buy herself a book? make up? lunch out?
    It is still their money in my eyes and the eyes of the law they are married.
    If I do not question what he is spending our money on I would want the same respect.
     And if either of us had a problem over not liking what OUR money was being spent on I would expect us to discuss it and resolve the conflict.
     

  4. 34
    Rose

    I would want to discuss it openly, although to me if someone used the words “What book is worth $20? (He’s not a book lover like me). Why are you spending all MY money on this nonsense.” It would pretty much tell me they were not open to discussing this is a loving respectful way.
    I would be feel happy to talk about the issue if later they felt open to discussing it in an open and loving way, until then I would be out of there and not discuss it.

  5. 35
    Lia

    I have a friend who was married to a man that I hesitate to call a “beta man”.  He was tall, handsome, strong, loved to hunt, very outdoors type guy.  He was charming and funny but he was NOT career driven.   She started a business and used his credit to do so.  Initially he helped her get it up and going but then she found that she preferred to run it, for the most part, without him.  He had a couple of jobs very short term in the time they were together (10 years) but most of the time he just did what he wanted.  
     
    What he did bring to the relationship was companionship. He went grocery shopping with her, went on errands with her, they went out to eat, to movies, and four wheeling together.  He did guy stuff around the house as well as help with cooking and dishes.  He just wasn’t motivated to get a job.  There was plenty of money coming in and so they did play a lot together and, according to her, had a lot of sex.
     
    It didn’t bother him that she was the “bread winner” and frankly she would not have had the business at all if not for him.  (She readily acknowledges this.)  But it really started to bother her that he was not “supporting her”.   Though he always backed her up when it came to the kids (she had five, he had one).  He always made the trip over the mountain to pick up or drop off her kids at their father’s house, sometimes without her going along. (This was a two hour drive.)  So he did support her but not financially.
     
    They have been divorced many years now and she has told me that looking back she realizes that he was a much better husband than she ever gave him credit for.  She says that he is the one that taught her how to play.  She had always been very serious even as a child and he showed her how to enjoy just being silly.  She said that she used to laugh until she could hardly breathe.  She didn’t see the gifts that he brought with him until long after he was gone.  

  6. 36
    Jenna

    When a man has the confidence to pursue a woman in the way that Evan describes on this blog we should be expecting, I consider that masculine and alpha behavior, even if he’s got less money and less ambition. But I rarely find that combination of traits. Can’t tell you how many beta guys I know who have had a crush on me (that I heard about through the grapevine) who were too timid to ask me out or follow through. I don’t care how nice these people may be, I have a very reasonable standard that a guy ask me on dates and take the steps necessary to be my bf, then husband. It seems like usually the more traditionally successful guys are the ones who tend to do this, but if some cool blue collar guy came around who could properly pursue me I’d be into that. 

  7. 37
    Karmic Equation

    Rose #35:
    “I would want to discuss it openly, although to me if someone used the words “What book is worth $20? (He’s not a book lover like me). Why are you spending all MY money on this nonsense.” It would pretty much tell me they were not open to discussing this is a loving respectful way.”

    I think one of the reasons men are so open to having relationships with me is because I don’t judge them. So when my ex said the words he said, I didn’t judge his openness or loving intention (or lack thereof)…I just took it at face value that he simply didn’t like me spending $20 on a book. I have to admit, even I didn’t like spending $20 on the book (until that day, I only bought paperbacks) but this particular book only came in hardcover, so I understood his consternation. I didn’t take it to mean that he was trying to control my behavior or that I was not entitled to buying any book without his permission, but rather why did it have to be a TWENTY-DOLLAR book.

    Using humor, I was able to defuse the “who’s money is who’s” without having to make a big issue of it. Humor can go a long way to stabilize a rocky situation.

    “I would be feel happy to talk about the issue if later they felt open to discussing it in an open and loving way, until then I would be out of there and not discuss it.”

    If I had actually tried to resolve this issue by communicating with him as you would have, I don’t think we would have solved anything because (1) You’re trying to control HIM as in “Talk to me the way I like to be talked to or don’t talk to me at all” and (2) You would have made the issue a bigger issue than it was because you inferred he was trying to control you, when he was just trying to express unhappiness about your behavior.

    Rose #34
    “So what about a stay at home mum who is looking after THEIR children. Do you think it is only the mans money in those circumstances and the women should get permission on if she wants to buy herself a book? make up? lunch out?”

    Well, men aren’t often detail oriented. If you went out grocery shopping and purchased a book and makeup with the grocery money, how would he ever know? If the children aren’t going to go hungry if you did this, then no-harm no-foul and ignorance is bliss for him. He’s not going to scrutinize your itemized grocery bill. But if you’re having trouble making ends meet, yet you feel a $20 book or makeup are necessary, I would say he would be within his rights to question you. Just as you would be within your rights if he decided to buy an equivalent male luxury if money were tight.

  8. 38
    Selena

    My son is a stay-at-home parent of 3 little boys. This was not his ‘life plan’ when he was younger. He had his own business at one time with a partner and it tanked the year his first child was born.  His wife had a job and they decided they would rather have him take care of the baby instead of putting him in daycare. At the time…I think they both thought the situation would be temporary. 
     
    As it turned out, they decided this was the best way for their family. My daughter-in -law says “J has more patience than I do. He is also better when it comes to correction. I cave too easily!” I told my son I was proud of him for making the choice to be a SAHP. I know it isn’t an easy job for anyone.  I think it might be even harder for males given some of the long-held expectations society put on them.
     
    The end of men? Nah. Some of us, both men and women, just might need to do a bit of adjusting.

  9. 39
    Greg

    I agree with Jackie, above, that the title of the book is offensive.  I find it  grandiose and pretentious, actually.  Unfortunately, the need for some sort of “edge” with regard to a title is endemic in literature today – one has to draw the buyer’s eye, obviously – consequently it stands to reason the author would draw more attention with “The End of Men” than with “The Ascent of Women.”  The latter would be more sensible, but less compelling.  And by the way, men are not “ending” at all.  Making that claim engenders polarity rather than reciprocal and shared attitudes regarding change. 

  10. 40
    Helen

    Selena 39, God bless your son. Your D-I-L is one fortunate woman. Being a stay-at-home parent is not for everyone, so it’s great that between the two of them, they worked out which would be better suited for it, if indeed anyone were to stay at home. 
     
    At the time my husband and I had our children, we were very socially conservative, so it was taken for granted that I would be the one to stay home with them.  Selena, it was hell on earth.  I can’t tell you how angry I was that the stay-at-home life is so romanticized in American culture, when in fact it can be such a tedious, exhausting, and mindblowingly frustrating job with newborns and toddlers.  And it felt endless: day after day, usually 24 hours a day (you never knew which hours you got to sleep).  Eventually we put our kids in daycare, and it felt like a sheer blessing to go back to work, have adult conversations, and enjoy 8 straight hours each day in which I didn’t have to raise my voice once.
     
    That’s why I had to smile when reading what Evan quoted above from Rosin’s book, about how not too many men are moving into the roles of stay-at-home fathers.  I couldn’t help thinking: well, duh.  Some people ARE cut out to be stay-at-home parents, like your son most likely – but not that many overall, I would guess.  There’s no reason to force men to take a position traditionally held by women that they don’t want.  This is why outsourcing some things, including child care for at least part of the day, is such a great option. No need to blame either gender now that we have many more options available to us.

  11. 41
    Rose

    Ty Karmic Equation.
    Feels interesting to read your different perspective of control. And  I understand where you are coming from.
    To me I see it as letting go of control as I have no expectation of the outcome and would not be trying to control if he spoke to me or not, suit himself really.and him choosing if he wants to discuss it or not in a way that feels respectful an loving with an open heart to me. And not disrespecting myself by staying around whilst someone chose to talk to me in a way that felt disrespectful to me.
    I have no control over how others choose to behave and talk,only control  on the words I choose and how I behave.
    So those would be the words I would chose and the action would be to disengage until an open respectful discussion was on the table.
    To me this is the opposite of trying to control another, do what they like. And is surrender speak.
    Just like for instance if someone was smoking around my child, I would say I feel uncomfortable having my child exposed to cigarette smoke and didn’t want others smoking around them. And if they wanted to continue I would have to leave.
    I’m not telling them what to do. It’s up tp them if they choose to continue to  smoke around me and my child. Telling the to stop and what to do would be controlling. Telling them what I did and didn’t want would be surrendering control and letting them decide whilst still taking care of my self and leaving if they wanted to continue. Up to them what they do.But I owe it to myself and child to leave if they want to continue doing something that I believe is harmful to me or my child.
    And it feels harmful to me to stay and tolerate someone taking to me in a way that feels disrespectful or attacking to me or my child, just as much as harm like smoking.
     The first isl harmful as it would cause me to feel stress if I felt disrespected and stress can be a killer just as cigarette smoke can be.
    Understand that you see it differently though.

  12. 42
    Judy

    Here’s the thing.
    2 steps forward, 1 step sideways.
    Women have come a LONG way in our country – we can get an education, we can work, we can marry or not marry. IT is our choice. Look at the news and see child brides and many horror stories around the world. Horror. If you look at the big picture we are blessed. Yes, we might spend a lot more time alone waiting for the one, but we are in heaven here, sisters. The old model, where we did not have a choice but to marry, is gone. Birth control is here, too. So we have choices like never before. And so do men.
    So it boils down to – we don’t have to have men to survive and they don’t have to marry to have sex. Women are relationship oriented – they want to connect. And the men that savor the connection are fewer and farther between.
    It is all about tradeoffs.
    I think the gibberish about being feminine is a bunch of crap that dating coaches like to write about because we buy it. The truth is you have to balance what you really want – with what you can live with.

  13. 43
    Selena

    @Helen #42
     
    I enjoyed reading your comments. Especially this, ” I can’t tell you how angry I was that the stay-at-home life is so romanticized in American culture, when in fact it can be such a tedious, exhausting, and mindblowingly frustrating job with newborns and toddlers.”
     
    I was a SAHM for many of the years my son was growing up. MY choice and I don’t regret doing it.   What sometimes bugged me back then was not that other people romantized  the idea of stay-at-home parenting, it was that some didn’t consider it “work”, “a job”. That is, whatever you did wasn’t important unless an employer was paying you to do it.  And if you had a college degree…you were wasting your education.
     
    Over a dozen years ago I came across a joke on the internet that made me laugh and say “YES!!!” It went like this:
     
    Husband comes home from work and finds his children running around naked in the front yard.
     
    He goes into the kitchen and finds his dinner is not in the oven. In fact, there is milk and cereal spilled over the table and the floor. And the dog is painted blue.
     
    He walks into the hallway and finds clothes and linens are piled up all over.
     
    He walks into the livingroom where his wife is laying on the couch. He asks her, “What happened here today?”
     
    She replies, ” Honey, you know how come every night and ask me what I did all day? Well today I didn’t do it.”

  14. 44
    Michelle

    I have to disagree with “and the men that savor the connection are fewer and farther between” (limiting belief).  Millions of men marry women every day.  The majority of men do want relationships, to partner and have children, with the right woman. (These are instinctual, biological needs that have been around for millions of years, and there’s no evidence these are going away soon.  Sure, the details around how those biological needs are met change with personality, society, age, etc.)  When it’s not the woman in question  that he is choosing, she tends to blame it on ‘men’ because that’s less painful (and it is painful, just not truthful).

  15. 45
    Helen

    Selena 44: YES. :D 
     
    Judy 43: I agree 100% with your last paragraph: “I think the gibberish about being feminine is a bunch of crap that dating coaches like to write about because we buy it. The truth is you have to balance what you really want – with what you can live with.” 
     
    What it boils down to is that male and female personalities are not THAT different after all – but there is a lot of social pressure for women to behave in stereotypically feminine ways here in America.  Every time I’ve traveled to or lived in Europe and China, I couldn’t help noticing that the women there acted much more sensibly than their American sisters. it’s because there’s much less expectation to play the dumb female, to put it bluntly.  I also agree with your point that we need to balance what we want with what we can live with.  If men don’t like our personalities, we can either attempt to twist ourselves into the stereotype of what they do want, or we can decide to be single and live as we please, which is not the worst thing in the world.

    1. 45.1
      missy

      Helen, this is so true, If men don’t like our personalities, we can either attempt to twist ourselves into the stereotype of what they do want, or we can decide to be single and live as we please, which is not the worst thing in the world. why do we have to do this? why? for the sake of what? a fragile ego? for goodness sake

  16. 46
    Judy

    Michelle #45 perhaps you are in a different age group – I am in 50+ and a lot of men do not want to marry because they are divorced and still bitter or they have complicated lives. They are happy to have a girlfriend who only wants to see them a few times a week and it won’t go anywhere – they do not need the deep relationship and connection the way we do. Of course there are men who want relationships and who think we are the one and that is what we learn from Evan to find.
    http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/08/opinion/child-marriage-kilusu/?iref=obnetwork
    I just found that story – it is very sad. I am happy that i work hard and have a great career and that I live in a good country where we have equal rights.

  17. 47
    Anita

    If it’s the end of men it’s also the end of women because the two always go together. Maybe the title should be the end of gender because nobody knows what it means anymore, and the people who try to tell us what “feminine” is or what “masculine” is just end up sounding foolish. Even on the biological level, it seems, there is a wide gradation of gender traits–no one is all “male” or all “female.” And the whole idea of DNA or genes determining behavior has really come under attack in recent years. As has the simplistic way that complex biological things get reduced to pablum in the mainstream press. So I feel completely free to ignore anyone or anything that says that “women” do this, or “men” do that–especially if the assertion is backed up with some reference to “biology” or “genes” or “DNA coding.”

    1. 47.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      @Anita and @Helen – “The End of Gender” sounds nice, except for the fact that men and women (based on biology and sociology) are NOT the same. Objectively. Scientifically. Case closed. We are EQUAL but different. And even if that difference is only 10%, understanding that 10% is often the key to healthier relationships. I don’t want to marry a woman who is just like a (typical) man. I would suspect that most men agree with me. So while you could chalk this up to “pablum”, that’s your bias speaking. That’s what you WANT to be true, not what IS true. Women have changed more than men have. This friction is why we’re reading lots of books and articles like this. It’s not a mainstream press that’s trying to create a story. It IS a story. And there are – and always have been – masculine and feminine, yin and yang. Wishing it away doesn’t make it any less true.

  18. 48
    Helen

    <stands up and applauds Anita 48>

  19. 49
    Helen

    Evan, I think you missed Anita’s point (unless I did – Anita, you’d be the one to say). Her point is that the title “The End of Men” is ridiculous because, if you talk about the end of men, you might as well talk about the end of women as well.  I never liked that title in the first place because of its inflammatory nature, perhaps deliberately designed to provoke attention and sales – and here is another reason why.

    1. 49.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Sorry, Helen, I think you just took the first line she wrote and ignored the rest of it: “Maybe the title should be the end of gender because nobody knows what it means anymore, and the people who try to tell us what “feminine” is or what “masculine” is just end up sounding foolish.”

      I’m one of those fools, apparently. You KNOW the difference between masculine and feminine. Hell, if I had a dollar for every woman who said she wanted a real MAN, I’d be rich. Many men are equally longing for feminine women, and have discovered that the traits that make one successful in business don’t necessarily make one successful at love. For both genders.

  20. 50
    Selena

    Over the years I’ve been reading internet forums, there have been several times where male posters have made a comment about babysitting their children when their wife/partner was out running errands or such.
     
    Inevitably, a female commenter will  write: “Um.. dude, it’s not babysitting when their your own kids.”
     
    I’ve thought before, “How clueless can the guy be in the 2000’s?”
     
    Today as I write this, I’m thinking,  You know, he probably isn’t a dimwit. He’s just a person dealing with gender roles, change, the things his mom and dad told him, the things his peers have said. We are all figuring it out as we go along. I gonna cut a little slack. ‘Cause sometimes…I’d like other people to cut me a little slack too. :)
     
     

  21. 51
    Rose

    When I say I want a real man, I mean real as in he is REAL as in he doesn’t pretend be something he isn’t  FAKE! Not hiding stuff about who he is because of his shame, or need for approval or need to manipulate and control. by lying and hiding the truth because he is scared of  rocking the boat and wants to keep the peace. His words, body language and actions all have to match to make him REAL, honest authentic the REAL thing! A brave man is not afraid to rock the boat and tell the truth even if knows the other person isn’t going to like what they hear.
    I know gay men who are REAL men they are still REAL men if they are open and honest. They are not women or fake men. They say this is me I am gay and if you do not like it that is your problem.
    Gay men who PRETEND to be straight are not real men they are faking it.
    Men who do things behind your back because they want their cake and eat it and FAKE men not being real. They are not women or men who want to be women, those are transsexual or transvestite. There are not only two genders that is a myth and a lie we were taught at school.
    And when I say I want a real man I mean a real grown up man.
    Actually what I want is a masculine energy as in takes the lead, grown up spiritually aware fully conscious man. Those are a rare breed.  Yes there are predominantly masculine energy men out there not all of them are what I want though. 
    And I have come across many men who have traditional masculine jobs, engineers, mechanics, computer experts techie guys. But when it come to women and relationships they are more feminine in their energy.. They want to be asked out, have you pay, put their feelings first and want the woman to take the lead and in a crises be manly and the strong one and take care of them and the problem. They sit there being passive instead of actively taking the lead and initiating and doing
    It’s the energy exchange.
    So the choice is which role do you want in a romantic relationship. The masculine initiating, doing, giving thinking and leading making the plans asking out etc?
    Or the feminine energy receiving, feeling, expressing?
    In romance even with gays and bisexuals for there to be romance their has to be one of each. Otherwise you have friendship only or friends with ‘befits’ f2222ck buddies.
     
     
     
     
     
     

    1. 51.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Rose, you said one thing worth repeating: “Actually what I want is a masculine energy as in takes the lead”.

      It’s not sexist to say that. It’s what most women define as masculine. And most masculine men aren’t looking to pair up with a woman who takes the lead, asks him out, makes the plans, makes the very first move, asks him to get married, and so on. Masculine men tend to prefer – and be more compatible with – feminine women, who are content to be with a man who is a leader.

      But you can’t have two people in the driver’s seat. And this is something that escapes many smart, strong, successful women. Glad it hasn’t escaped you.

  22. 52
    Ruby

    Judy #47
     
    ” I am in 50+ and a lot of men do not want to marry because they are divorced and still bitter or they have complicated lives.”
     
    I’ve encountered the same thing, including the minority of men who have never married, and probably never will, because they aren’t cut out for it) although they may pay lip service to wanting it). I see many men who don’t even want long-term relationships at that age. And with the divorce rate for 2nd and 3rd marriages even higher than or first marriages, perhaps they are right? Something isn’t working.

  23. 53
    Rose

    What I have observed is that there are more women now who have become better and quicker at thinking and planning than a lot of men .Maybe because of better educational opportunities for the women. Who knows?
     So they have overtaken mens ability in leading. A lot are better leaders. Problem is like you say they are biologically still hormonally women. And want to be romanced like women. They still want the man to be the leader but sadly they get fed up and bored of waiting for him to work out what he supposed to do and be an effective leader. Leading us how we want to be led.
    I don’t see many men who have become better followers and better in empathy skills and biologically they are still hormonally men on the inside. Or maybe they are not anymore because of the hormones is the water from contraceptive pill. Who knows.
    So maybe the author has a point after all.
    Want to read all of the book now to see more of what she says and conclusions she had drawn.
    All sorts of things that need researching into why now this mismatch.
     
     

  24. 54
    Rose

     
    It feels best to me to have my whole sentence quoted so it remains in context. and original meaning. Here is whole sentence@ what I want is a masculine energy as in takes the lead, grown up spiritually aware fully conscious man. Those are a rare breed.”
    I do not believe most women just want a a masculine energy who takes the lead without  the other things I mentioned, if he isn’t a spiritually aware fully conscious man. I don’t know many women who want a man to be their leader if they are not consciously aware and our wounded with past trauma and baggage. Not ready to be in a healthy relationship because they haven’t healed from their past stuff.  Or spiritually aware and wanting a soul connection with the one
    I don’t want any old masculine energy man to be my leader. Some masculine energy men who want to be my leader I don’t want them to lead me anywhere. As where they want to lead I definitely do not want to follow as it would be harmful for me.
     

  25. 55
    kdr

    Good lord, I cannot be the only woman who cringes at the thought of men taking on more “feminine qualities”. Blech. I like the “masculine” part of men; the feminization (is that a word?) of men makes me want to go watch a Robert Mitchum movie. “The end of gender” does not sound like a good idea to me.
    I am trying to picture a man telling me “I am looking for a woman who is willing to meet in the middle and take on more masculine qualities. Or at least to make the effort, seeing as how I’m so sensitive and emotional and all”.
     
     

  26. 56
    hd

    With the already big and increasing number of males who take their diets seriously, spray tons of chemicals on their skin, hair and face, I disagree that men haven’t become feminine.

    And, since the current economic world favors and reward sociable, cunning, manipulative, and cautious people, men have to learn to have those characters, if they want to survive this world, thus becoming more and more like women.

    Hell, since traditional masculinity emphasize the ability to assault, loot, rape and violate (aka taking whatever you want for himself), the world has since become a better place since traditional masculinity goes extinct.

    Though, if we go further into history (eg. Hedonistic period), masculinity was determined by many things, one of which is pederasty – having sex with male teenagers. I honestly can’t think of any group of males these days with that kind of behavior, except gay male pedophiles…

  27. 57
    Helen

    hd 60: most of your points are good. I’d disagree with two things: 1) In the past, men did spend a great deal of care on their grooming (witness powdered wigs and high-heeled shoes), and 2) cunning and manipulation are not traits unique to women.
     
    I think the important takeaway point from your comments, however, is that masculinity is changing; or if we were to stick with traditional definitions, then it is waning. Personally, I am more of the belief that these definitions and artificial distinctions are continually in flux.  But as to the point in your third paragraph: Steven Pinker at Harvard recently published a book on how our society is becoming ever more civil over the last millennium, despite naysayers who claim that society becomes ever worse.  Of course this is true, when one considers the birth of the scientific method and concept of mercy in legal judgment.

  28. 58
    Frimmel

    RW in #16
     
    “@Frimmel
     
    >> feminism freed women from their traditional sex role. It did not free men
     
    Yes, you are correct.  But do men want to be freed?  Isn’t that what this is all about?  You could also argue that women do not want them to be freed (while wishing to be free themselves) but that’s a different ball of wax.”
     
    My experience is that women do not want men to be ‘freed.’ My experience is that mostly women just want the parts of equality they like. (Women complain about not enough CEOs yet still remain mute that 92% of workplace fatalities are male.)
     
    When it comes down to it women are the ones that can free men. When the majority of hot women with great jobs (and just generally attractive women with decent jobs) start seeking stay at home husbands men will change.
     
    Not to open this can of worms again, “Do men have to pay for dates because they make more money or do they make more money because they have to pay for dates.” I was on a date recently and things around this topic came up and she claimed that men had been freed. I asked her how many unemployed men she’d been out with (she was not employed at the time) and ‘won’ the argument.
     
    If you really want to understand where I’m coming from on this read Warren Farrell’s books, “Why Men are the Way They Are” and “Why Men Earn More and What Women Can Do About It.”

  29. 59
    Karmic Equation

    @Rose #26, 27 & 28 :)

    We had an amicable divorce. We were celibate the last two years of our marriage and neither of us cheated. We’re not the cheating type. I sought the divorce when I came to the realization that we were way to young to be living celibately (I was 39, he was 44) — and being OK with that. ONE of us should have cared enough to at least talk about it if not fight about it. Other men were starting to look too attractive…so divorce was the only option lest I go the cheating route. We didn’t have children, so that made the divorce easier.

    #34, 35, 42 and 54

    In 54 you wrote:
    “His words, body language and actions all have to match to make him REAL, honest authentic the REAL thing! A brave man is not afraid to rock the boat and tell the truth even if knows the other person isn’t going to like what they hear.”

    Yet at confrontation, when a guy is showing you his authentic self, you would (#35) make him do want him to CHANGE and become more feminine, and talk to you in a feminine way (sensitive and loving).

    “I would be feel happy to talk about the issue if later they felt open to discussing it in an open and loving way, until then I would be out of there and not discuss it.”

    You can’t have it both ways. Either love his authentic self and talk to him when he expresses himself or get a femininine man, because that is what you’re turning him into.

    Manly men aren’t always tactful, unless their job is to be tactful, even then you can almost always tell when they’re biting their tongue  And even the most tactful ones will not hold back, when it is effective to speak rawly (a la EMK).

    I think you do understand how to be feminine, but I think you apply it at the wrong times. You should be feminine when attracting a man, but when you are in the midst of a heated discussion, that is the time to be assertive and stand your ground, especially if you feel you are in the right. And if you’re not sure, THEN you should acknowledge, with feminine grace, “You know, you may be right. Let’s talk abou this rationally…”

    Don’t do the strawman argument thing. I hate that. Arguing about book is not the same as lighting up a cigarette with the child nearby.

    And, if I were at a friend’s house, and they didn’t know better than to light up or go out of the room for a smoke, I would say, nicely, “Since I have little Jane with me, I’m going to step outside with here while you smoke, Ok? Let me know when the smoke clears. <With gracious smile>” — And I would hope that my friend would say, “Oh darn, I forgot, don’t do that, I’ll step out.” or “Ok.” — Either outcome would be fine by me. That is assertive speaking and NOT trying to control the outcome or the person. Your way is controlling. Just because you don’t label it that, doesn’t me you’re not trying to do that.

    @EMK 50

    I was kind of riled and thinking of a way to reply that didn’t sound riled. Glad you were able to do that.

    @kdr 59

    No you are not the only one. I’m with you. If you want a manly man, you have to put up with the male way he’s going to go about doing certain things.

    @Frimmel 62

    I agree with you. Most women are selective about with part of sexual equality they support. Dating an umemployed man is definitely one of them, they won’t even if they’re making enough to support the both of them.

  30. 60
    Anita

    You know what I’ve seen and read lately? I saw a video of funny animal things where a huge dog humped a woman, two male dogs took turns humping each other, and a dolphin leapt up on a dock and humped a trainer. I read about plants changing their sex and worms being hermaphroditic. I read an article about a squid or an octopus where the male has one spermy tentacle that detaches and creeps across the ocean floor to impregnate the female squid/octopus, and then he grows a new spermy tentacle. I read some article that talked about farmers having sex with barn animals, usually sheep, and the number is a lot higher than you would think. I read another article that talked about one diocese where the authorities did a detailed investigation into sexual abuse there and found that 4% of the priests were pedophiles–the same number as in sports clubs, schools, and the population at large. After I watched another funny animal video of some primate in what I would call a shoulder stand having a hilarious time peeing into his own mouth, I reached the following conclusions: 1) biology across all species is incredibly diverse in its exressions of gender and sexuality, and 2) either biology is not really all that concerned with procreation or it’s not that bright.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

You may use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>