Why Do Women in Their 30s Not Want to Date Men in Their 40s?

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Why Do Women in Their 30s Not Want to Date Men in Their 40s?

Evan Marc Katz

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I’m a 42 year old single male who recently left a 5 year relationship for various reasons, but mainly because I wanted kids and she did not. I thought that since I was an attractive, fit, well-educated, financially and emotionally secure guy that I would have no problem finding a woman in her mid 30s to settle down with and start a family. I have tried a combination of online dating, speed dating, professional singles events, volunteering, happy hours etc. and have had very few dates over the past year. I thought that online dating would be great since you are essentially pre-screening people for dates. I have found that I get no responses from any women online and the only women who respond to my ad are usually much older and don’t meet any of my criteria outlined in my profile.

I am told that women want to settle down and have kids, etc., but their actions seem to be to the contrary. At singles events, women come in groups and are reluctant to talk to men. In online situations, women say they want desperately to meet a nice guy like me, but never answer my response to their profile. I am trying to remain positive, but two things are really bothering me. One, that younger women are no longer interested in dating men who are even just slightly (3-5 years) older than them and sometimes want to date men 5-10 years younger then them. Two, women seem to be content in the fact that they are independent and self-sufficient and have a career, family and friends that fulfills them and don’t seem to be interested in truly finding a relationship. I find the latter hard to believe, but find this mantra in every profile of every professional woman online. Any advice on how to navigate these new paradigms in the dating world?

Adam

Dear Adam,

You came to the right place.

And to directly address your email, I have to divide my response into two different parts: 1) What You’re Getting Right and 2) What You’re Missing.

What you’re missing is that what you want has absolutely no relation to what women want.

Let’s start with What You’re Missing. We’ll do What You’re Getting Right next week.

What you’re missing is that what you want has absolutely no relation to what women want. We’ve addressed this before, from an older man who couldn’t possibly fathom why a younger woman wouldn’t want to be with him. This isn’t all that much different. We can complain that the opposite sex is unrealistic and passing up great opportunities – and we’d be right – but it doesn’t change that people want what they want. It’s not fair. It’s not right. It just IS.

From 25-34, men play around a lot. Why? Because they can. They have a lot of dating options, they’re building their careers, and there isn’t a clear urgency to settle down.

Once a guy crosses 35, however, he (theoretically) tends to get more serious.

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188 Comments »Filed Under Dating Tips & Advice, Online Dating Tips & Advice

188 Responses to “Why Do Women in Their 30s Not Want to Date Men in Their 40s?”

Rachelle 1

Great advice, Evan. I like the way you broke it down.

I’m a 37 year old woman and have online dated off and on over the years. I’m attractive, fit, have a job, etc. I’ve never been married and do not have any kids. I’m looking for a LTR but with that said I’ m not willing to settle.

I would date a 42 year old, not a problem, but as you say, men in their 40′s are looking for women who are in the 27-34 year old bracket.

I do know when I was in my early 30′s, anyone in their 40′s seemed old to me! Funny how that works out.

It’s been my experience that I seem to get alot of emails from the 50+ and over crowd. To be fair, I’m not looking to date my dad. Sorry!

And like you said, round and round we go….
Mikko Kemppe - Relationship Coach 2

Very interesting, realistic, and thorough analysis Evan!! I don’t seem to find anything to disagree with your posts anymore …
Carol 3

There is a huge opportunity being missed here by the online dating companies. How about one called ‘guess my age’ or “Age Anonymous” where you don’t disclose your age upfront? That should shake some things up!
Heather 4

When I was 33 I dated a 40 year old. I had no problem with this whatsoever, but at first it seemed like a bit of a novelty. 40 can seem ‘old’ to those of us who are fresh out of our 20′s. It’s an age we can remember out parents being, so it’s a little odd. However, and this may just be me, but I tend to relate best to men who are *slightly* older than me and, at 37, a 42 year old man is rather desirable. Ideally, I’d like to find a guy who is about 2 years older than me, but I’d rather date up a few years than date someone more than 2 years younger. Again, this is just one woman’s perspective.

In this case, however, I think the failure to find dates may be a function of what this 42 year old is looking for. Unless he and Miss Right find each other, sparks fly, and it’s a very sure thing that happens quickly, the whole settling down and starting a family thing might be tricky. I don’t personally believe that courtships need to last that long, and that if they do last several years there’s something wrong. But you have to find the right person to have this happen, and, as we all know, that gets increasingly difficult with age, self-awareness, and a shrinking pool of date material.

As a professional woman in her mid-30′s I’d like to add that a lot of us don’t want children. I think some of us choose to remain single on a subconscious level to avoid this whole subject. It may seem that a lot of us have biological clocks ticking away (which is an assumption I believe the original poster is making) but I don’t think that is the case, especially amongst career girls like myself.
JB 5

There are plenty of women online in their late 30′s who already have kids and don’t want more or maybe would like to have MORE kids that will date men in their early 40′s but of course those 40 something guys have to be “hotter”,”richer”,better job etc than their 30 something counterpart.Does that mean I think a 34 yr.old with no kids that wants some will date a 43 yr.old that wants some? No,they won’t most of the time.But a 37 or 38 woman with a guy 42 or 43 isn’t out of the question or unrealistic.
Michelle 6

I am a 38 year old woman, the challenge is that most men in their 40′s act and seem old. They do not keep up with current events, music or fashion (think goatees and mom jeans). They often seem very very stuck in their ways. So as an attractive 38 year old, I am able to attract young men, and prefer their vibrancy. The older men who do keep up and are a tiny bit metrosexual probably have a easier time of it. Maybe you can do a little to be more attractive to the women you are looking at…. I really want to date men my own age…..
Selena 7

I’m surprised women aged 37 – 42 aren’t interested interested in men in their early 40′s. Is this really a trend? I don’t consider 5 yrs either way an age difference anyway so I don’t get it.

This older men preferring younger women thing though, doesn’t seem to have any end to it. Lately, an 89 yr. old man has developed a crush on me. Not only do I not want to date someone my Dad’s age, I definetly don’t want to date someone 20 years older than my Dad!

I get the idea “find the people who want you” , but hey! there’s a limit ya know.

I like your “Guess my age ” suggestion Carol. I think it would shake up some people’s perceptions of older/younger. I also think it could be a bit of an eye opener to those who believe they look much younger than they are. You don’t look 10 years younger than your age to someone who actually IS 10 years younger than you are. Trust me.
sophie 8

I like Carol’s post! That would indeed be interesting! I’m on match and almost always completely ignore the info at the top of the profile. Age, height, have kids/want kids, body type, ethnicity etc.

I just read what people write about themselves and it’s only from reading the chat on Evan’s blog that I’ve come to realise that this isn’t normal! I have regularly dated guys and found myself asking after 5/6 weeks, “how old are you”?, “younger, older than me!?” I don’t take it in, I just go by whether their physical appearance suggests they’re young or old to the extent that it makes me feel uncomfortable.

I don’t get people that have strict age limits; for me ten years older is fine and re younger, so long as they’re out of their teens and seem it, I’m open minded! But then I’m in my twenties; who knows how I’ll feel in 20 years time!?
Shay 9

Hey Adam, sad to say…you’ve had your chance to meet women who are in child bearing age and can have your children when you were in your 20s and early 30s. How come you wanna have kids only in your late 30s?

And frankly, nowadays women are leading a more active lifestyle than men in general. Older men (among even my early 30s guy friends), they tend to wanna be couch potatoes and home-bound. Whereas women still in their 30s wanna go out, do stuff, etc are even financially independent to continue to do so without tying herself down to be a child-bearing machine. So, a guy who is 40-ish…I’d be wondering what he can offer.
A-L 10

I have to disagree here. I don’t think it’s just bad luck. As a 29 year old woman, most of my friends who have done online dating have stated on their profile that they’d be willing to date a guy up to 10 years older than them. I’d venture to say that most women who are at the settling down phase would be willing to go at least 7-8 years above. And I haven’t seen any profile of a woman who isn’t willing to go 3-5 years older than her. So if you’re asking women out who are 3-5 years younger than you (37-39), these are supposed to be the women who are most desperate to find a man because their biological clock is ticking the loudest. They should be overjoyed that a man not old enough to be their father is contacting them and at least send back an e-mail, even if the whole process doesn’t get to the dating phase.

So if this is not happening, your profile or approach must need serious work. Go through the archives or Evan’s various articles he’s written on the ‘net. Or you can buy his program. Or get an honest friend to look over your profile and critique it. But you’d better do something because if you want your own biological children, time’s ticking for you too.
Mara 11

My thought is that it depends on whether the woman in her 30′s has been in long term relationships, or any relationships actually, or has been more of an “always single” girl. If she spent most of her 20′s and early 30′s “single” then I think there is even more resistance to finding a man in their 40′s that she sees as immediately settle down with, have a kid or two, and be an “older” couple. She might still want to catch up a little on the “fun” “couple” life all her friends got to have – that YOUTHFUL couple life of vacations, concerts, sporting events that she spent a lifetime of doing single and wants to catch up on some of those milestone moments with a guy in his 30′s who still seems to live that lifestyle before wanting to “settle down.” A woman who got to experience many of those things as couple, just with the wrong person in the long run, but had fun and enjoyed them at the time, is probably more willing and into settling down and craving more wanting to get married and start a family and a home life.
Sherell 12

This is the problem with online dating. In person you can see and judge how “young ” or “old” someone may be. But on online you just have age cut offs. In person, I am often approached by men 10 -15 years my junior. Online alot less so. When I was in my late 20′s and early 30′s and someone asked if I wanted to date a 42 year old, I would have said eweeeeeeee no way!!!!
When you are young you picture yourself dating someone within 5 years of your age . As you get older the range increases.
Diana 13

I wonder if it’s possible that Adam has never married. I know this is often perceived as a red flag for a 42 year-old guy. It sounds like his initial email and his profile may need revising. Maybe he talks about wanting to start a family in his profile. Many sites encourage you to say what you’re searching for, and while some women in their mid-30′s might have their initial interest peaked by what he has to offer, they’re not sure where they stand on such an issue and so they pass. It’s kind of like the woman who mentions her desire to have children too soon for a guy’s liking and he scatters off.

He is now living in a world “as it is” vs how he perceived it to be when he exited his LTR. Many women of today are interested in dating and claim they want to find a good guy, but in reality, eh … not so much. They are as he has described: successful, career-oriented, independent, active, financially strong, self-empowered, and loving life. They also do not always want children. And some women are choosing to have children, but not in the traditional way.
Paula 14

I would date a successful man that didn’t have children, but I cannot have children. So I would not be someone he would want, I am also not healthy enough to care for an adopted child, so we would have to hire help.
But as in dating guys in their 40′s .. some have so much, when I read “my 6 year old is my life”, I go to the next one because I think, well then you don’t need a woman then do you?
Other than that, I don’t care what age I find. I want to know what’s inside the mind heart & soul.
BTW thank you for the stuff about the young guys… have had them honking at my car, flooding any dating sight, etc etc. I need not another 2 year relationship.
Shay 15

I agree with Diana (#13). Women being scared off by men who disclose their agenda too soon.

In fact, if Adam really disclose that he wants to start a family, the woman he showed interest in might think that he is not really interested in her as a person, merely a convieniant child bearing machine. Then any woman would fit the bill, right?
Joe 16

Buddy, you are just doing something wrong. If you’re good-looking and have a job you should not be having any trouble getting a woman. But maybe you aren’t good-looking or employed in the way that women like. If so you gotta move down the food chain. Like go after the ones that make a lot less than you do or the ones that don’t have minicures or something.
JB 17

@Paula,

If I had a dollar for every woman who put “my children are my life” in their profile I’d be richer than Bill Gates….lol
Just like the women with 4 kids who sometimes write…”I have time for relationship” I just laugh and say sure you do…..next!
Dashing One! 18

These days we constantly hear that age is nothing but a number.
50 is the new 40, 40 is the new 30, and even black is the new white! LOL!
The truth is age does matter! (especially in the long run).
Personally when I was in my 20s I dated women who were 12 years older than me. When I was in my late 30s/early 40s I lived with a woman that was 15 years older than me. All of these women were very attractive for their age but in the long run is where the problem comes in for most people. When you’re 60 and your mate is 40 there are going to be some major differences between you. Energy is one of them along with thoughts of retirement…etc
Having said all of the above there are still lots of old guys dating women in their 20s and 30s while they are 50 and older. However most of thoes women are not just looking for an old man who is “financially secure”. He has to be rich, powerful, or famous. Trust me that is the only reason why someone like Hugh Hefner (almost 80) has a long line of 20 something year old beautiful girls waiting to jump in bed with him.
If you want a girl who is a “gold digger” or looking for a “meal ticket” they are out there but most of them will not be highly educated nor have career interests of their own.

If the age of a woman is real important to you then you would be better off thinking in international terms… (women from Latin America, Europe, Middle East, South America, and Asia). Women from these cultures are beautiful and raised to view age differently than in America. They are much more open to marrying older successful men. You might want to google some international dating websites. Keep in mind there are over 6 Billion people on this planet of ours. There is nothing that says your wife/soul-mate can’t be waiting for you on some tropical island.
Just as business has to think globally to thrive you too should think globally when it comes to finding the woman of your dreams. Thank God for the internet and airplanes! LOL!

Yes there are exceptions in America but you have to look at the odds. I’m certain if you were to sift through every dumpster in New York City you are bound to find a diamond ring or something of value in at least one of them but why would you choose to go down that road just so you could have something locally.
We place value on youth in our culture. Everyone here is trying to look younger than they are, dress younger than they are, keeping track of music and new Hollywood stars. The “Baby Boomers” coined the phrase, “Don’t trust no one over 30!” Today these are the same people who refuse to get “old”. They are standing in line for plastic surgeries, popping Viagra like vitamins, constantly trying to shape up or trin down…etc

In America a man in his 20s and 30s with a good sex drive is seen as sexy. A man in his 40s, 50s, and beyond is considered a “dirty old man” for having the same desires. The thought of older people wanting sex is a turn off until we ourselves fall into that age group. LOL!
BeenThruTheWars 19

It’s not about age as a number so much as it is about life stage discrepancies. Every five years or so, priorities tend to change. I found, while dating again in my early 40s and wanting to date men my age, that they “all” wanted younger women because oops! They forgot to have kids. The men who were interested in me, at 42, were in their late 20s to late 30s and did NOT want kids (neither do I), who were relieved to find a woman who wasn’t all over them to get married and start a family right away, the way the women in their mid-30s tended to be. I was divorced ten years and didn’t care if I ever got married again, and that was like catnip to the younger guys I met who were ambivalent about having kids (almost all of them, frankly). Also, the older men (50+) dug me, because to them I was a “younger woman” who didn’t have any baggage or expectations when it came to wanting kids or more kids. I wound up with a guy eleven years my junior; and while there are a few life stage issues now in terms of where we are in our respective careers, we are wildly happy together because we both eschewed having kids and don’t feel the least bit selfish or regretful about the choices we made.
Heather 20

@Dashing One:

Great … good to know that there are foreigners out there to take away EVERY job from Americans!
JerseyGirl 21

I really don’t see why someone who was 35+ wouldn’t want to date someone who is 42. Man or woman. But, if that’s really the case, then I guess men are now geting a little of their own medicine. I can’t say I have too much sympthy since most men usually don’t really care how this issue affected women.

I did enjoy the post by Dashing One that said that women in other countries are raised to view age differently. The irony in it is he seems to only care about how older men are viewed, not older women. He’s more upset about how older men past 40 are viewed , not women past 40.

It’s not that having a sex drive past 40 is bad. It’s when men want to play around and not grow up until they are 40 and then expect that they deserve a younger woman after they had their play time.

Although, the man that wrote the letter did say he was in a relationship for 5 years. So in that case, it wasn’t that he was playing around.
PortiaOnLine 22

After reading these posts, it is clear men and women are just not on the same timeline!
I had one child in my late twenties during grad school and got divorced four years later. When i got around to dating again I found that men in their 30′s and 40′s were mostly like Adam – they either wanted kids or had kids, along with an ex-wife and a custody schedule. Been there, done that. Not interested.
It wasn’t until I started dating again in my late 40′s that I could find men who affirmatively did not want children, or like mine, their kids had flown the nest. What i find interesting about Adam’s email is that he equates children with a LTR. I think Evan’s analysis is right on about men wanting younger women who aren’t yet ready to settle down – although my biological clock wasn’t ticking anymore, a lot of my (professional) women friends had children in their late 30′s and early 40′s. Perhaps Adam should find the woman first and then figure out the kid issue instead of the other way ’round. Is carrying on his gene pool more important than being alone? Some women come with kids already and there is always adoption. I agree that there is a certain “I’m looking for a breeder” tone that if its in his profile might be a turn-off.
Have I solved the problem? Sort of. Having just turned 50, I have been actively dating for the last four years (using a lot of Evan’s advice, of course) and have dated men 12-15 years on either side of me, but not so many my own age. For the last year I have been seeing a man eight years my senior. His kids are grown up and married. He has his own law practice. He doesn’t know how to use a BlackBerry, but he calls me every day and (Evan will cringe) on dates he brings me flowers, pays, and helps me off with my coat. He understands responsibility and commitment. He is the only guy I’ve dated since my divorce with whom I can see having a future. Would I have dated him ten years ago when I was 40? Probably not.
JerseyGirl 23

Why wouldn’t you have dated him when you were 40 PortiaOnline?
NomDeGuerre 24

@ Heather #20

Isn’t the response in the Outsourcing/Illegal immigration debate always “because they’ll take the jobs Americans are unwilling to do”. In the future, even Americans won’t be “Made in the USA” anymore.
Anette C 25

Am I allowed to be offended by the guy that chooses to “date” and “have some fun” but then expects women so much younger than him, to hook up with him and start breeding once he hits his “I’m now stable” stage? What happened to behaving with a bit of maturity and self-restraint when you are younger? What happened to thinking things through?

It’s letters like this, that make me lose my faith in men. Actually, it makes me lose my faith in people a little bit.

I’ve realized, that at 36, kids may not happen for me. I also realize, that even if I craved them, no man I meet is going to want to be seen as the “father” of my kids before he’s ready or even willing to make that decision. If I want some-one lovely in my life, I have to accept that kids may simply not be on the agenda. If I really wanted to, I could have one on my own. So no pressure on the guys, and just get to know them slowly.

But when I read this stuff from guys, I think, how self-absorbed is he?

Thankfully I know some really great younger men, who have had families young and although they do believe they may have made a mistake in their choice in partner, they are working on it and are absolutely dedicated to their children and their partners lives. Some of my younger male friends, do give me back some of my faith in men and people overall and I hope their marriages prevail.

I probably shouldn’t be, but I’m really disgusted by this guys attitude. He wanted his cake, and wanted to eat it too…and doesn’t spare a thought for the women, who may have wanted children and still do, but are running out of time. You know, those women who were once young enough to have kids, but met men that just couldn’t make that commitment. He wants a breeder who will do things his way. Harsh, but that’s the way I see it.
Shay 26

PortiaOnline (#22) said what I want to say but didn’t know how to put it!!! Hahaha…

Yes. People nowadays have the sequence the other way round. Kids are the testimony of love between a couple. Having kids should not be the ultimate purpose of a relationship. So, the aim should be the find the right person first.
Joe 27

Foreign chicks are cute but you cant talk to them.
Joe 28

Not that I care about that so much-but I mean about anything!
Helen 29

“Foreign chicks are cute but you cant talk to them.” – Joe #27

You know, I’ve wondered about this too. For those of you who have watched “Love Actually,” you’ll recall that the men fell in love either with foreign women who couldn’t speak to them, or women who had such a different career (tea girl vs. prime minister) that you had to wonder what they would ever TALK about if they got into a long-term relationship.

So it is in real life as well… there a LOT of white men falling for foreign women (especially Asians) who don’t speak English very well but are very cute.

Do men just not care about language and other verbal barriers when it comes to finding a mate? I’m not judging one way or the other; I’m just wondering, because it seems so strange, and I’d like to hear others’ perspectives.
IceQueen 30

Men have to move along with the reality that has changed a long time ago now. I think men still follow stereotypes that are no longer valid. And, yes, they sometimes do tend to view things from the perspective of their wishes. The culture conditions them to do so. I think men aim too high when it comes to women’s looks and age. There are simply not enough hot 25 year old women to go around for all the men that desire them. And there won’t be because less girls are being born. And the ones in their 20s and even 30s have choices.
I am 32, good looking (not hot, just cute) and do not wish to be with an older man, quite the opposite, I desire younger men. I had a relationship with a man 13 years my senior when I was 19. But from then on, the men were my age, a couple of years older or younger. The problem was, even the older man did not want to have kids (he had had one already). I had long term relationships but the guys didn’t want to have kids back when I was 23-25. They just wanted the good sex and the hot meal. Just like many guys in their early 30s. I used to think that I’m different than other women because I wasn’t physically attracted to older men (unless they’re Viggo Mortensen who is 50 but unfortunately they’re not). I was raised by a young dad (he was 21 when my parents had me, mom being a bit older). I have always desired virile men in the age group of 19-30. But I also like softer, more tolerant guys, the so called beta males, and it’s the younger ones who tend to be like that because they appreciate independent women. As a woman, I desire a few things that are not traditional, but alas, the reality has long since changed and ppl haven’t come to terms with it. I have my own money (there never was another choice but to work and pay my own bills). So I desire other things – good looks, youthfulness, caring, attentiveness, ‘father’ potential (not a highly paid Sunday dad but someone who will atually raise the kid, Dad with the capital D). His wallet is not my priority. And it is not always the older guy who is more stable and secure. I know a lot of guys in their mid-late 20s that are in committed relationships and have already had kids. And then there are many guys aged 35 who are still “sleeping’, being ultra picky, looking for the bestest of the bestest. I know that they want the hot 23-27 year old (who makes her own money preferably). Well, they set themselves up for loads of competition because those women are desired by thousands of men in the age range between 21-60 (both rich and poor).
It is sad. I wish I was attracted to older guys (some of them are really neat). But I just can’t help it when I see a handsome 25-27 year old, I am simply enchanted!
Also, I dislike the attitude of older guys towards older women or women their own age. Hei, I will be old some day too – they will not get a piece of me for putting down my older sisters!
What is interesting I notice some other women who are actually similar to me.. I thought I was an exception… they claim they like older and ‘smart’ but in the end looks do matter to them and so does the age..
I’m actually considering staying single or having the kid on my own as the extreme choice.. but thankfully there are many good guys out there.
Guys, don’t be sleeping through out your 20s and 30s.. where is your commitment at that age? Sperm quality and men’s fecundity drops too with age… and to the Western guys who think they will import a much younger wife, alright you might, but I come from one of those ‘poor’ countries in Eastern Europe and I do love Western men a lot.. but – not my dad’s age! And not even 10 years older, sorry.
Karl R 31

Annette C said: (#25)
“[Adam] doesn’t spare a thought for the women, who may have wanted children and still do, but are running out of time. You know, those women who were once young enough to have kids, but met men that just couldn’t make that commitment.”

How are these women running out of time? My sister adopted her first at 41, and is getting close to adopting another at 44.

Why are people so insistent upon raising children who share their genetic code? (Or their skin color, for those who choose adoption.) Why don’t they spare a thought to the children (particularly black children) who need loving parents?

I guess they’re just more interested in breeding and being parents their way.

You have put your desire for children who are your own flesh and blood above the needs of tens of thousands of children in foster care who need adoptive parents. Why are you condemning Adam for putting his desires over those of you and your friends?
Selena 32

Re: #31

Wonder if Adam would consider adoption, either as part of a couple, or as a single man? Hmm.
downtowngal 33

Either Adam should be more open to dating women closer to is age, or he’s chosing to pursue the wrong women. Because many women in their early 30′s are indeed looking to settle down with the right guy.

Also, Evan, one point you brought up..” Because 35-40-year-old men who are ready to settle down still want to have time before becoming dads.”

Truth is, most married couples I know of have had kids within a year or two of marriage – even the ones who marry into their late 30/40′s (exception being one partner in school/transition, second marriage). So the idea that a guy wants to enjoy coupledom for a few years BEFORE having kids tells me he either has unrealistic expectations or isn’t really ready for a commitment. Besides, what happens if his girlfriend/wife unexpectedly gets pregnant soon after marriage?

And lastly, many women have childern into their 40′s one way or another. So a guy over 40 who pursues women younger than 35 because of their child-bearing abilities is really a smokescreen for immaturity and comittmentphobia.
NomDeGuerre 34

downtowngal-

And lastly, many women have childern into their 40′s one way or another. So a guy over 40 who pursues women younger than 35 because of their child-bearing abilities is really a smokescreen for immaturity and comittmentphobia.

Fertility rates for women start to dip after 30, accelerate after 35, & drop off a cliff after 40. Every medical study on the subject has confirmed this.

Here’s a tidy summary for you;
Pregnancy over 40 and Related Risks
There is a sharp decline in a woman’s ability to achieve pregnancy over age forty. The fertility rate per month is only about 5% and even with in Vitro Fertilization (IVF), the most successful infertility treatment available, the pregnancy rate is only about 10% per try. This is due to the greatly reduced number of normal eggs remaining in the ovaries of a woman over forty. Therefore, women who desire a pregnancy over 40 should seek help after only 3 months of trying to become pregnant. Estimates from embryo biopsy reveal that at least 90% of a woman’s eggs are genetically abnormal when a woman is over 40. This is explains the increased pregnancy risk over 40. The miscarriage rate is 33% at age 40.

You’re the one who is using this debate as a smokescreen downtowngal.
downtowngal 35

NDG#34, thank you for your clinical summary. I’m not using anyting as a smokescreen, just stating facts. Fact is, there have been many advancements in fertility treatments. Fact is, guys who refuse to date older women (and i’m not saying OP is doing this) are making assumptions for a potential dating partner without understanding the full picture.

I have a friend in her mid-30′s who’s been married for 10 years. She and her husband have been trying to have a family during that time but have had difficulty. I also know of women in their 20′s who have gynacological issues preventing then from aving children….not something you’d want to post on your online profile.

bottom line: you fall in love and marry the person. age based on fertility, even if well-intented, eliminates a potential pool of compatable dating partners.
Selena 36

Re:#34
Several years ago I saw a program were an ob/gyn cited those same statistics. Her point was this is something doctors should be informing their patients, but often didn’t. She went on to say, she wasn’t telling women who knew they wanted biological children they should grab any guy off the street when they were in their 20′s and most fertile, but rather that women needed to be aware of these facts because there was a trend to put off child bearing until the late 30′s or beyond. Women who waited until everything was “right”, the established career, the large house, money in the bank , having years alone with a spouse before children, etc. , were finding themselves unable to conceive or to have repeated miscarriages if they did conceive late 30′s – over 40. Not all women ofcourse, but the fact that 90% of a woman’s eggs are bad by the age of 42 is a pretty sobering statistic.

This info needs to get out not only to women, but to men as well. Men who want biological children “someday”, but prefer to spend their 30′s childfree may find themselves having less of a choice when they are older. Also, autism has been linked to the age of the father. Something else to seriously consider.
Jennifer 37

Selena #36- so very, very true.
I think information about fertility has done women who want to have biological children a service, because instead of women in their late 30′s trying again and again and just hoping things turn out okay, they can seek medical treatment/information sooner and increase their chances of getting the outcome they want.

I also think people need to hear about higher instances of autism (and some other issues) being linked to the age of the father, because from what I’ve observed most people don’t know about that.

Sometimes i think of the whole thing like going to a (4 year) college: if you know you want to go, there are some things you have to do in advance to prepare. You take your SATs (junior year). Apply for schools/financial aid (junior/senior year). Then you get your acceptances in April and show up in September. You don’t just wake up one day in August and decide that you want to go to Harvard and show up at the gates.

So it is with relationships/marriage/children- I think you have to do some things to ‘prepare’ so to speak. Knowing that you have some time constraints should just help you with your preparations.
JerseyGirl 38

Fertility rates for women start to dip after 30, accelerate after 35, & drop off a cliff after 40. Every medical study on the subject has confirmed this.
———————————————————————————-
This is somewhat true. But not entirely. Fertility rates in women do begin to dip. However, there are also many women who are in their 30s, might have the eggs of a 20 year old. Also, fertility rates in men also begin to dip at 30 as well. We usually only think about this in context to the woman. But nature does not prescribe a way of life where men are to be fertile and making babies well into old age and women are to not. The truth is nature wants both young health men and women to make babies. Not 40 year olds on either side. This is why men, as they age, experience ED and other sex related issues and why we see so many unnatural drugs targeted at men to buy back their ability to have sex. We are all familiar with the little blue pill because it is a huge problem for many men. And it’s a huge problem for men because that is nature’s way of also weeding down older men’s ability to have children. It has also been proven in many studies that older males are JUST as big a contribuators to issues in their offspring after having children after a certain age as women can be. So it is no big secret that women age and their bodies change. But it is also no big secret that the same happens in men. The difference is that men have tried to creat the illusion that they will always remain the most highest quality of fertility well into their 60s. Which is just a myth.
Ruby 39

Here’s some info reported in the Washington Post about a recent large study on autism: “When fathers are in their thirties, children have about 1 1/2 times the risk of developing autism of children of fathers in their teens and twenties. Compared with the offspring of the youngest fathers, children of fathers in their forties have more than five times the risk of developing autism, and children of fathers in their fifties have more than nine times the risk”.

Here’s a link to an article that lists other potential problems associated with older fathers:
http://www.dailyherald.com/story/print/?id=106959.
Selena 40

JerseyGirl,

How many women in their 30′s do you think have the eggs of a 20 year old? How many women in their 30′s do you think get tested, year by year, on the viablility and quality of their eggs and general fertility?

You use the word - might. The reason for the medical research on female fertility being shared with the general population is so that people can make informed decisions. Statements such as “many women in their 30′s might have the same eggs as a 20 year old” are of no solace to a couple who have gone through the miscarriage of a much wanted child. Let alone several miscarriages. Who possibly, optomistically, wanted to believe they fell into the might catagory.

If you can find statistics on the percentages of women in their 30′s and 40′s who actually have the eggs of a 20 year old, please share them.
JerseyGirl 41

Selena, I don’t need to find statistics to be quite honest. I said it was a possiblity. I didn’t say it was the rule. I am not disputing medical science in the least. Did I or didn’t I not agree that women’s fertility does drop? The point of my post was not to provide solace or medical advice. The point of my post was to point out that male fertility drops and changes as they age, as does women and sometimes, older age in women does not always mean an inability to conceive. I do not advocate that someone shouldn’t take their health and fertility seriously and not get checked. However, what I find incorrect here is the judgement that women are the only one s responsible for issues in infertility.
Helen 42

Putting together the thoughts of previous posters, I think the problem is this: In modern society, it makes sense from the standpoint of sheer survivability to put off having kids as long as possible, so that both men and women can become more secure in their jobs, higher education, etc. The drawback, for those who want kids, is that fertility problems increase with age in both men and women. So how can one reconcile these differences?

Sadly, right now, it’s impossible. Science and technology are making great advances in decreasing biological age, with research on telomeres and gene therapy, among other areas. But in the near future, it boils down to people having to make hard choices about what they would RATHER have.

In the end, we CAN have it all; we just can’t have it all at once. And don’t dismiss the idea that Karl R and others brought up earlier about adopting. I can personally attest to the fact that it’s possible to love adopted kids as much as biological kids. How much does it matter to pass on our genes, anyway? These aren’t really OUR genes; they’re the genes of our ancestors. If you read Richard Dawkins’ “The Selfish Gene,” you get quickly disabused of the notion of passing down your genes.
Selena 43

@#41
Sorry, but I believe you are making opinion statements without the research to back them up.
Ann 44

Selena, downtowngal, JerseyGirl, others: The statistics you are quoting about female fertility are coming from fertility clinics, and the data collected are on women who have presented themselves as having trouble conceiving. From the scores of friends I have who have been through those fertility clinic doors, I can tell you that these are businesses, and their research are used as such and are very much manipulated.

If you speak to a biologist, rather than a fertility doctor, you will find that there are no comprehensive studies on what the natural span of a woman’s fertility is, and there are no tests that can predict whether or not you can get pregnant. I have been searching for these studies for a long time for a paper I am writing and have only found two that come close to presenting controlled data on the natural span of female fertility for a representative sample population–and the researchers had to go way back in history to find the data. Reason being: Most women who are in their late 30s/40s/50s today are not trying to get pregnant and are taking precautions against it or are ending their accidental pregnancies. Point being: In order to get accurate statistics on female fecundity (ability to conceive) there are so many factors you would have to control for.

So, if you want to be truthful, you cannot make general statements about the fecundity of the entire female population in this way. You have women at 20 who cannot conceive (and yet “look” like they can) and women at 51 who can conceive (and yet “look” like they can’t).

When you approach menopause you will see this: you will start getting all the stern warnings from your ob/gyn to keep up with your birth control. Why? Because you might still get pregnant. (The assumption being that you don’t want to be at that age. Not sure why they always make that assumption, but…)

Or go to an abortion clinic and note the high number of married 40-somethings in there. (Abortion clinics report that the bulk of their patients are in their teens and in their 40s. You never read this statistic in the media.)

And yes, I do hold the media is responsible for this kind of bad science getting bandied about. When you have an ob/gyn who tells you that they just don’t know why some women get pregnant and why others don’t, no matter what the age, you have a good, honest doctor there.
JerseyGirl 45

Selena, what part of my post is completely untrue? Did I disagree with medical science? Did I not agree that women’s fertility decline as they age? Did I not say the same applies to men? Did I say that all women past 30 have the eggs of a 20 year old? Certianly not. Frankly, I am quite confused what you find so offensive or untrue. There is nothing that i said that was so far out there. If you are honest with yourself, you will see that we all look at the facts and come to our own conclusions. Since there are many different facts, with many different people, we all come to many different conclusions.
Selena 46

JG,
Prior to watching a television program some years ago, the only thing I knew, vaguely, was that the incidence of birth defects was higher when the mother was over 40, and that the average age of menopause was 50. It really shocked me to hear that by age 42, 90% of a women’s eggs were degraded, damaged, or otherwise unviable. Did you know that? The doctor on the program’s focus was on educating women of the realities of reproduction and ageing so they knew what they were up against. When you wrote of “…many women in their 30′s might have the eggs of a 20 yr. old” to me, that came across as dismissive, flip and possibly made up. Where did you read women in their 30′s might have the eggs of a 20 yr. old? And how would you define Many anyway? I was irked by this JG, but you are completely right: We all look at the facts and come to our own conclusions, and since there are many different facts, with many different people, we all come to many different conclusions. No surprise there huh? lol

And Ann made an excellent point about research. If we aren’t doing our own research on the research, where it comes from, how it was sampled, analyzed and drawing our own conclusions – we are allowing ourselves to be spoon fed what the media chooses to present any given week. Thanks for the reminder Ann!
Evan Marc Katz 47

Um, it’s generally considered harder to have a kid when you’re 40 than when you’re 30; that’s part of the reason that men prefer younger women. The fact that male fertility may drop as well doesn’t change the above statement or influence men’s opinions. I’m not sure what there is to debate.
A-L 48

I find it interesting that for so many years we’ve been telling ourselves that we can put off having children, and in fact that’s it’s better for children to be put off at least until one hits 30. The basic idea being that the longer the parents have a single life, the better they’ll be as parents because they’ll get out most of their self-centered desires and be more responsible parents. But I guess now that people have actually tried this path, they’re seeing some negative results regarding conception and birth defects so the pendulum appears to be swinging the other way (i.e., get kids done early so you don’t screw them up biologically). Just out of curiosity, how have people been searching for their data on all of this? I’ll be doing some of my own and depending on what I find may advance my baby timeline a bit (though it will still be while I’m in my 30s).

And Evan, would it be possible to go back to showing which thread a person is commenting on on the right hand side under “Recent Comments?” Also, can you enlarge the size again of the text within this comment typing window. It appears to be about 7pt or so, and even with my 20/20 (corrected) vision, it’s really small.
Joe 49

IceQueen proclaimeth:
Also, I dislike the attitude of older guys towards older women or women their own age. Hei, I will be old some day too they will not get a piece of me for putting down my older sisters!

As a woman who prefers younger men, aren’t you doing the same thing to older men that you complain they are doing to your elder sisters?
JerseyGirl 50

Selena, I will answer your questions when you answer mine. J But being that you choose to ignore mine, I will give yours the same consideration. I actually believe you to be dismissive and flip and possibly making up your own facts in-between some truth.

——————————————————————————————————

Evan Marc Katz Jan 6th 2010 at 07:32 am 47

Um, it’s generally considered harder to have a kid when you’re 40 than when you’re 30; that’s part of the reason that men prefer younger women. The fact that male fertility may drop as well doesn’t change the above statement or influence men’s opinions. I’m not sure what there is to debate.
——————————————————————————————————

I think we all understand what standard men hold women up to that they do not hold themselves up to. And while it might not change or influence men’s opinions, it should and does change and influence many women’s opinions as we learn more about then negative affects older men have on their offspring. Hence the reason why alot of women do not want to settle for an older man. We also have to consider biologically what he has to offer, good and bad.
JerseyGirl 51

Maybe as we learn more about the affects older men have on their children, we will slowly come to a point where men will begin to take women more seriously earlier in their own lives instead of wanting to play the field until they are in their 40s and then try to get a 20 year old to settle down with them. This could be a good thing for women . there is more and more research being done everyday on how older men affect their offspring. It’s probably one reason why we see so many cases of children with autism.
IceQueen 52

Joe,
I get a lot of attention from older men and I still talk to them and go out occasionally. Some of these guys I really appreciate, but I can’t help the fact that I do not fall in love with them. If I were a 32 year old guy, would I consider going out with a 44 year old woman on a date? No, a guy would usually dismiss that entirely, most of the time. But I still try to give these men a chance and try to date them because I might get attracted to one of them. It just doesn’t happen unfortunately.
I’m a free, self sufficient person and I can date who I want – they can be 25 or 40. It’s just that I dislike the culture of devaluing women based on their age and don’t want to be a part of it. I know this will sound unusual, but since we have a sort of an equality now, let’s have it all the way. If I have to work as much as the man and have the same duties as the guy, then I will have the same privileges, one of which, is dating younger (or same age), as long as that younger age group shows interest. After all, not all of the older guys that approach me are willing to be the complete provider, are they? A lot of them still want me to bring along my own paycheck. Kids is another issue – most of them have already had kids and are reluctant to go through that child raring experience again, and honestly not all of the 35-60 year old guys are fit enough to be a father of a small child. It takes immense energy to raise a child plus keep a regular job.
IceQueen 53

JerseyGirl brings out very valid points. These issues need to be put in balance.
It is obvious that nature wants us to have kids early on, after all in the ancient times the usual life longevity was only 30 years. Boys produce sperm very early and some girls can get pregnant as early as 13. Same as some women can get pregnant at age over 45. So the fertility span is quite broad. But those are all extremes. Nature is very smart and it has arranged a certain period for both sexes to have offspring. As was mentioned already, this is why many men are less likely to have good erections after a certain age, just like the testosterone levels drop after age 30 and so does their sex drive decrease eventually. Both sexes should have children early on. The human growth hormone starts decreasing at age 23 for both sexes, so this is the time that the actual aging starts. Women of course lose fertility earlier than men plus the culture/social status gives men a longer fertility span (perception). But it doesn’t mean that either should drag it out until they are 35 or older. Men might think that they can drag it out until they’re 35-40 and then they will find that fertile and hot 25 year old. They might, but their chances will diminish because there’s not enough 25 year old women to go around for all the men who desire them in the age group from 21-50. Plus the women in their 20s are not always willing to settle down these days.
There are a lot of studies now about men’s fertility. Sperm counts drop after age 30. A doctor told me that in couple infertility, 52% of the cases are due to the guy’s fertility problems. It’s still easier for the guys, of course, but it just needs to be taken into consideration, that’s all.
It would be much healthier for a woman who’s let’s say 32, to get pregnant by a 20year old healthy guy because his sperm is definitely more lively. Doesn’t often happen like that in real life, but biologically it would be much better than getting pregnant by a guy who’s over 35. This doesn’t mean we can’t have babies at an older age, but still.. and many of these things are in nature’s hands not ours.
Another issue is the money and guy’s stamina. Traditionally older guys are considered to be more affluent and better providers. This has always been the reason why the older guy/younger woman dynamic worked so well. Today it is not always the case. Many older guys today either have average incomes or they do not want to share their income with the woman. The female will still have to work and collect the child benefits from the taxes that she has herself paid. What is peculiar is that I have been approached many times by much older guys who make less money than I do. This is probably an exception, but it still happens.
But the biggest issue is his stamina and physical strength. Does a 40-50 year old guy really wants to go through all the child raring process again? I want a strong and healthy dad for my kid – someone who can carry the baby pram upstairs and can play hockey or ball with the small son. Someone who has the patience and stamina to take care of the youngin while I’m on errands, cooking, cleaning or making money. Is this something that most of these over 35 year old guys would wanna put up with? Many of them just seem interested in their motobikes, luxury travel and FHM.
NomDeGuerre 54

Re: #41

You have women at 20 who cannot conceive (and yet “look” like they can) and women at 51 who can conceive (and yet “look” like they can’t).

And you have men at 20 who cannot conceive (and yet “look” like they can) and men at 94(!) who can conceive (and yet “look” like they can’t). A 90 year old man concieved his own biological child. The absolute upper age limit for women having their own biological children is much, much lower than it is for men.

Or go to an Abortion clinic and note the high number of married 40 somethings there. Abortion clinics report the bulk of their patients are in their teens and early 40′s. (You never read this statistic in the media.)

Because it isn’t true. The CDC (Center for Disease Control & Prevention) keeps quite comprehensive statistics on abortion. According to their research, 20% of women who have abortions were teenagers, and only 2.4% were over 40. The majority of women having abortions were in their 20′s and 32.4% were between the ages of 20-24 (More than teenagers & women over 40 combined).
Ann 55

Figure 3, from CDC website, shows the abortion rate broken out by age group in a line chart. Top three lines (highest rate of abortions per 1,00 women) are in the age categories of under 15, 15 to 19, and over 44. Figure 2 shows the same info in a bar chart.

Here it is:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5212a1.Htm#fig3
JOe 56

I don’t know about you, dude, but I don’t know any guy who wants a younger woman so he can have kids. He wants a younger woman cause she looks better.
Karl R 57

Ann, (#55)
You misread the data. It’s not abortions per 1,000 women. It’s per 1,000 live births. Take a look further down the page for a more accurate breakdown by age (Table 16).
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5212a1.Htm#tab16

It looks like 2.8% of all abortions are for women who are 40+.
NomDeGuerre 58

Ann,

Thanks for posting the link.

The tables you are referring to point out the ratio of abortions per 1000 live births, not per 1000 women as you stated. Teenagers and women in their 40′s have far less children than women in their 20′s, which is why they can have a higher ratio of abortions to births than women in their 20′s who actually account for the majority of clients in abortion clinics.

Look at table 4 in your link, you will see that women in their 20′s had 55.3% (423,577) of all abortions in 2000 (20-24-32.6%, 25-29-22.7%). Teenagers accounted for 18.7% (143,286) and women over 40 had 2.8% (21,639). Women over 40 represent only a tiny percentage of women giving birth and those seeking an abortion.
Trevor 59

OK. This will probably be a strong aberration from any trend regarding age apropos dating scenarios. I am a 63 year old man. Granted a younger version of one physically, as I tend to be health conscious and active. Also, my field of endeavor is one that “keeps me in touch” with the now in many areas, ie technologically, et al. My dating pool includes women in their mid thirties to mid fifties. And the majority of them are mid thirties. At the risk of sounding conceited, which I am quite the opposite, even shy, some of these ladies have made the initial advance. Needless to say, I am completely aware of the realities of finite lifespans and not remotely thinking about having children or getting married (well.. have to think about that one.). But as far as just having a great time and sharing lots of wonderful stuff, sex included, it seems to be going well(!) Anyway, for the “really old” guys who have become depressed reading the above posts, there is hope! I have really enjoyed reading all of them, sincerely. Ciao.
Juls 60

I’m 20 and have dated someone significantly older, but I would never date someone who wants to be with me BECAUSE I’m younger and make a good breeding machine.
Maybe your problem is not your age, Adam, but the very sexist attitude you show.
Ann 61

Thanks for pointing out my misreading of the data. I was looking for data to support my claim that the majority of women having abortions are at either ends of the barbell and just did a random Google search. This factoid is what I had been told, not by the CDC, but by women at abortion clinics.

It could be that this anecdotal evidence is speaking more to the observation at the clinics that proportionally more women at either end of the barbell choose to end their pregnancy. (Maybe the reality is: “You wouldn’t believe how many older women we see having abortions…”–meaning, the day-to-day experience of women who are actually on the front lines flies in the face of the cultural expectation that older women can’t get pregnant naturally).

But back to my original argument: I was only making the point about the number of abortions to older women to support my assertion that actual fertility/fecudity rates among the female population are unknowable, so the bandying about of what your “chances” of getting pregnant are fall into the category of bad science–manipulated or misread (see how easy it is?) statistics. That a fellow blogger chose to zero in on that point and ignore my argument doesn’t diminish my argument, since the argument does not rest on the number of women who have abortions at what age.

What my argument hinges on is what is measurable and what is not, so statistics (the measurement of what is knowable) in general, and how they are used, are key to the discussion. So let’s go back to those statistics on the CDC site and then I will reiterate my original contention, so lost in the ensuing discussion.

If you read the CDC site you will notice that all abortion statistics are reported by abortion clinics/hospitals and the age is only reported when known. What is missing are the ages of ALL women having abortions and the TOTAL number of abortions performed–which would be near impossible to get. You’d have to collect data on and include the number of miscarriages (spontaneous abortions), abortions by non-reporting centers or offices, at-home abortions via unprescribed abortion pills or some other method, etc. In short, the CDC statistics are not representative of the phenomenon of abortion at large since they only include what is known and reported through very specific and defined channels.

The same is true of the CDC statistics on fertility, though there is something else at operation in the culling of these statistics. The fertility statistics on the site are the collected results of fertility clinics across the country, which is how the CDC monitors what is going on in that industry. From the clinic side of the story, these statistics are what a clinic uses to market its services. To be blunt, the CDC statistics report on the success of a business model. If you speak to women who have been to more than one clinic you will hear the stories about how one woman’s chances of getting pregnant change based on the “reputation” of the clinic. That’s because no clinic takes ANY woman wanting to get pregnant; they screen based on what they deem to be acceptable “prospects.” Since there are plenty of examples of women using fertility treatments (donated eggs/sperm/embyos) to have children after menopause even, we know that the “chances” of an “older woman” (post-35, in fertility clinic lingo) getting pregnant are not as bad as presented–unless a clinic has some reason for turning away women who desire the most aggressive types of treatment. It’s fine that clinics turn away women seeking treatment–IF they present it as a decision driven by a business model–but they don’t. They tell these women that they “cannot get pregnant.” Which is untrue. They can get pregnant. Under different circumstances. (And please don’t flame me with rants about the ethics of older women having children. I don’t care, and that’s not the point of this.)

What is missing from the discussion about fertility (besides more research into and more widespread information about the male half of the equation, which many bloggers here have brought up) is a comprehensive, longitudinal study into what is unknown–which is, what the natural span of human fertility/fecudity is. Such a study would require a sample population that is actively looking to reproduce without interference for decades. Obviously this kind of study is not possible (though there are some historical data that suggest that our fecundity lasts longer than the fertility clinic data would lead us to believe).

In sum, because the natural span of human fertility/fecundity remains an unknown, the “chances” of any one person conceiving or impregnating at any age cannot be given.
Jennifer 62

When I posted earlier, I was referring to women becoming pregnant and carrying a pregnancy to term without medical intervention (can’t speak for other posters though).

I think it’s good for women to know that if they choose to wait until a certain age to have kids, there is an increased chance of needing medical intervention (fertility drugs, IVF, donor sperm or egg, etc.) to make that possible.

Some women will have no problem with that at all and choose to wait. Others may use that information to reconsider some priorities. But no matter what a woman chooses to do, I think it’s hard to make an argument against having more knowledge on the subject.
Ann 63

@62: I agree with you. That’s all I’m saying. There is no information on what the true biological span of human fecundity (male and female) is because we humans exercise a great deal of personal choice when it comes to our reproduction (no control group is available). With that understanding, what kinds of choices we make are greatly influenced by whatever the prevailing beliefs are about our reproduction. That some women have the eggs of a 20-year-old at 40 is a belief. That most women do not is a belief. That we should have our kids young is a belief. That we can have them until whenever is a belief. All of it can be argued; none of it can be proved.

We believe what we believe at our own peril.
Karl R 64

Ann said: (#44)
“The statistics you are quoting about female fertility are coming from fertility clinics, and the data collected are on women who have presented themselves as having trouble conceiving. [...] these are businesses, and their research are used as such and are very much manipulated.”
“I do hold the media is responsible for this kind of bad science getting bandied about.”
Ann said: (#55)
“(highest rate of abortions per 1,00 women) are in the age categories of under 15, 15 to 19, and over 44.”
Ann said: (#61)
“Thanks for pointing out my misreading of the data.”
“the bandying about of what your ‘chances’ of getting pregnant are fall into the category of bad science manipulated or misread (see how easy it is?) statistics.”
“my argument hinges on is what is measurable and what is not, so statistics (the measurement of what is knowable) in general, and how they are used, are key to the discussion.”
“the CDC statistics are not representative of the phenomenon of abortion at large since they only include what is known and reported through very specific and defined channels.”

Let me get this straight. You believe that statistics are easily misused and misread. You also believe we can’t rely on the CDC statistics (despite your willingness to do so in #55, when you thought they supported your point). As evidence of how easy it is to misread and misuse statistics, you point out your own misreading (manipulation?) of the CDC statistics.

My chutzpah meter just redlined.

(If you don’t know what chutzpah is, look it up on wikipedia.)

Ann said: (#61)
“the CDC statistics are not representative of the phenomenon of abortion at large since they only include what is known and reported through very specific and defined channels.”

Do you have any evidence to suggest that non-reported abortions make up a statistically significant portion of total abortions? Do you have any evidence to suggest that non-reported abortions would not follow the same age distribution as reported abortions? Do you have any evidence to suggest that the abortions where age was not documented would not follow the same age distribution as those where it was documented?

And why would you include miscarriages (the accidental termination of a potentially wanted pregnancy) in with abortions (the deliberated termination of an unwanted pregnancy)?

I agree that the CDC data is not 100% complete. However, it appears to be the best available data, and it’s unbiased. Your criticism of those statistics (as “bad science”) is not based on evidence or sound statistical procedures. And you seem to have a heavy bias.

Fact: The average age of menopause is 51.
http://www.nia.nih.gov/HealthInformation/Publications/menopause.htm

Fact: Live births drop off during the 30s and dramatically fall during the 40s.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr57/nvsr57_12.pdf
(Note that the statistics for older women are by 10 year age range, not 5 year age range)

Fact: Abortions drop off during the 30s and dramatically fall during the 40s.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5212a1.Htm#tab16
(Note that the statistics for older women are for a 10+ year age range, not a 5 year age range)

Fact: This decline in births and abortions does not correspond to the age distribution of the female population.
http://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/c2kbr01-12.pdf

I can’t tell you whether an individual woman is fertile. I can tell you which demographic will be reproducing most in the next 5 years.

If you’d like to convince me that the CDC, NIH and census bureau are unreliable sources of information, you should probably start by demonstrating that you’re a better source of information.
Ann 65

Karl, you are missing the point completely and discussing statistics about fertility (rate of reproduction) as if they are statistics about fecundity (ability to reproduce). No one can predict who can or who cannot reproduce because there is no way as yet to determine fecundity. Apply some logic here.

If a man does not have a child at point X in his life, does that mean he was not able? No. It does not mean that. We don’t know what it means. There are many ways to explain the observable phenomenon that the man did not have a child at point X, only one of which might be that he was not fecund.

Similarly, there are many ways to explain the statistics you reference. You notice that the statistics above are not interpreted, they are merely reported. Look for causality and correlations, draw what conclusions you will from them. None of them can be proved one way or the other.

I was using statistics in my argument to make the point that fertility (reproducing) demonstrates fecundity, but absence of fertility does not demonstrate absence of fecundity. If you can show that fertility statistics exclude instances that demonstrate fecundity, then you can disavow the claim that fertility stats and fecundity stats are the same. Clues to fecundity that might not make it into fertility stats: miscarriages, non-reported abortions, etc.

To your other point, the prevalence of these things is not reported, so who knows how common they are or how significant statistically they are? Again–no one knows. I might have had a miscarriage last month and not know it. A miscarriage demonstrates ability to conceive (fecundity) without demonstrating fertility (reproduction). If I’m trying to get pregnant a miscarriage means I can get pregnant. Can I reproduce? Maybe, maybe not. Different question.

Which brings us back to–fecundity first, fertility second. The second depends on the first, and the first is an unknown. It is bad science to say that a non-event in the second is based on what is unknowable in the first case. The best we can do is theorize. And perhaps years from now whatever popular theory we now espouse will be proved wrong.

We do observe that most people seem unable to reproduce after a certain point. Why is that? To me, that is a very intriguing question. It isn’t that way in the rest of the animal kingdom. And, as yet, there is no known answer.
Karl R 66

Ann, (#65)
I am applying logic. First, you act as if the capability to reproduce is the only factor. If a woman is able to reproduce, but does not want another child, then Adam will not want to marry her. If a woman is able to conceive, but is consistently incapable of carrying a child to term, Adam will not want to marry her.

So for someone like Adam, fertility may be more important than fecundity.

Furthermore, the available statistics demonstrate some overall trends. We can assume that most of the women who have abortions are capable of conceiving, but are not willing to give birth. We can assume that the women who give birth are willing and able to give birth.

The rate of live births drops off even faster than the rate of abortions, so it appears that the overall willingness to reproduce declines faster than the ability. However, the rapid decline in both live births and abortions indicates that the ability to reproduce is also declining rapidly.

It is possible that the decline in abortions could be due to women over forty becoming vastly more disciplined about using birth control (as an alternative explanation for the statistical trend).

As for non-reported events, can you provide a plausible explanation why women over 40 would be getting unreported abortions in disproportionately large numbers? I can think of a plausible explanation why teenagers might get them in disproportionately large numbers, but not women over 40.

I agree that older women have disproportionately more miscarriages.
http://www.marchofdimes.com/professionals/14332_1155.asp#head3
I would say that supports the arguement that older women are less capable of reproducing.

And I think we can safely assume that fecundity ends with menopause (unless you can produce a documented exception). My girlfriend went through menopause at 42, so it can occur well before the “average” age.

Ann said: (#65)
“Look for causality and correlations, draw what conclusions you will from them. None of them can be proved one way or the other.”

You’re tossing around the absence of proof like it’s a persuasive arguement. Meteorologists can’t tell you when and where lightning will strike, but I’m not about to start dancing on the rooftops in a thunderstorm. Sometimes correlation is sufficient to advise a course of action.

If you want to pioneer long-term fecundity studies, I’ll applaud your efforts. But in the absence of such information, people are going to make decisions based on the best information available, even if it’s not perfect.
Selena 67

Re: #66
Thank you Karl for doing the research and providing the references. It’s all about making educated choices from my point of view.
Janet 68

Actually, Ann, I do think that the CDC statistics are pertinent to your argument. You had it right the first time. What they show is not that more women at either end of the barbell (as you call it) are getting pregnant (relative to the birth rate) but that more women in those age ranges (relative to the birth rate) are choosing to end their pregnancies. Perhaps we can infer from those stats that women in those age ranges are less willing to give birth. Perhaps we can extrapolate here and suggest that women in those age ranges are also less willing to conceive and are taking pains NOT to get pregnant in the first place (you left out IUDs, which allow for conception but not implantation–very popular in Europe).

From the outside what we would see is a bubble in the number of women in a certain age range giving birth. Which people who don’t dig deep enough might interpret to mean that women in certain age ranges CAN’T get pregnant.

Karl, your argument misses one key element–women get pregnant by men. Perhaps men’s ability to reproduce drops off just as abruptly or even more so than a woman’s, the example of Tony Randall notwithstanding. Just as one possible scenario: Perhaps as our environment has changed male fertility is more negatively affected than female fertility. There may be others: Male fertility is very unexplored territory in reproduction-land. So the fact that Eve isn’t getting pregnant after a certain age might just as well be Adam’s “fault.” Just think of all the women who were murdered/divorced/etc. because they didn’t produce male heirs, only for us to discover centuries later that it is the sperm that determines the gender of the child!

So in my book, Ann is right–nobody knows for sure what is going on here. She isn’t making a case for anything except accurate information–which fertility statistics don’t give us. There are whole countries where the birth rate is at or near zero–s0 clearly not every woman (and man!) in the world is as crazy to populate the earth as we are made out to be, and not all of us are frightened by any decline in fertility, which (in my experience) is what all these “statistics” are about. You are also peddling this fear, Karl.

And just for the record–you guys should stop touting your supposed biological imperative. Everybody knows that no guy is chasing young tail to get her pregnant!!! I would say that he is hardly thinking about that at all!!! Ha!!! He just wants the supposed social advantage that comes from his buddies thinking he’s getting laid.

It must also be clear to you that nature is about the egg and the resultant offspring–these are the precious commodities–not the superfluous sperm, most of which just ends up spinning off into nowhere.
Ann 69

Thanks, Janet @68. Yes, that is what I was getting at. I don’t know what Karl is getting at. He keeps insisting that fertility declines overall as we age and that isn’t even what I’m talking about. And I don’t even care about it. Have kids, don’t have kids, who cares. I’m saying that we don’t know what the natural arc of potential reproduction is for humans–neither for men nor for women. And to your point, we don’t know if that natural arc has changed over time. (I would imagine that our reproductive powers have been mightily compromised by growth hormones in dairy, pesticides in produce, metals in our water, whatever. But I digress…)

My main concern is how the medical world and the science press present so much about reproduction as fact, when really it is business. $20,000 a pop to be told what your “chances” are. Misleading science and shrewd business and very freaked-out people paying over tons of money. It ain’t right…
Karl R 70

Ann said: (#69)
“I don’t know what Karl is getting at.”

Whenever someone starts tossing facts around that sound like they’re incorrect (i.e. #55), I like to double-check the facts. You misread your data.

Then you started claiming that the CDC data was inaccurate (i.e. #65) since it did not represent 100% of the data. That is probably not true. The CDC data is accurate provided it captures a representative sample of the entire set of data. (Polls are based on this fact.) Since the CDC’s sample size greatly exceeded the minimum number for an accurate sample, the only way it could be inaccurate would be if it were non-representative of the entire set.

Not only did you offer no proof to back up your allegation that the CDC data was inaccurate, you didn’t even provide a plausible explanation for why it might be non-representative.

The information you were using to support your arguments was wrong. That was my entire point.

“Perhaps men’s ability to reproduce drops off just as abruptly or even more so than a woman’s,”

If that had been your entire point, I would have let it slide. Male fertility decreases with age. There is no hard limit (like female menopause), but I was easily able to find a source stating that the motility of sperm decreases as men age.

Janet said: (#68)
“Everybody knows that no guy is chasing young tail to get her pregnant!!!”

Are you sure? I don’t want kids. I started dating older women because they were less likely to want kids, and more likely to have kids that were grown and gone.

It seems perfectly plausible that a man who wants kids might also focus his search based on the age of the women.
Selena 71

Re :#70

Janet: “Everybody knows no guy is chasing young tail to get her pregnant!!!”
Karl R. “Are you sure?”… “It seems perfectly plausible that a man who wants kids might also focus his search based on the age of the women.”

Which brings us back to the letter writer Adam – who broke up with his partner of 5 years because he wanted children and she didn’t. It seems perfectly plausible to me that he might focus his search on the age range of women who are most likely to want and be able to have children. Which historically is under 40.
wanderlust 72

It’s pure numbers. Women in their 30′s are hard to snag for any guy not just men in their 40′s. In my experience women that are still single, never married, no kids and in their 30′s are career women. Not to mention sort of rare so they have a lot of options. Not all men go younger so if you’re a guy in his 40′s you have to remember you’re competing against guys in their late 20′s and 30′s as well. A guy in his 40′s will generally have more money than a guy in his 20′s or 30′s but that doesn’t mean much to some women.
Janet 73

@71: Yes, Selena, I am sure.

For both genders the issue of children can be a deal-breaker if they are contemplating marriage and they want different things. I know more women who would end a relationship if the guy doesn’t want them; I know lots of guys who don’t care one way or the other or definitely do not want them.

But no man is going around chasing tail (I want to use a stronger word here but fear it won’t get through the censors) because he wants to impregnate that woman. Please. Let’s be real here. Getting her pregnant is the farthest thing from his mind. Ha!!!
Janet 74

Karl @70: Ann didn’t say the CDC data was inaccurate, she said it doesn’t represent what people (like YOU) seem to think it represents. It does not represent what is possible in terms of human reproduction, it represents what has happened in any given year.

That’s like saying the tree didn’t fall in the forest because you, Karl, didn’t hear it. According to your logic, a 46-year-old woman can’t get pregnant because she isn’t in the CDC stats on abortion or assisted live births. I’m sure that practicing Catholics Tony Blair and his wife Clarie and his son Leo would be very surprised to hear that.

Ann stated quite clearly at the beginning that she is researching what the potential for human reproduction is–not what the actual rate of reproduction is. Did you miss this? Do you have any data that can actually answer her questions? No, you are just descending into the usual ad hominem attacks.
Ann 75

Janet @74: You are too funny! Everyone knows that Tony Blair’s son Leo does not exist–because his wife was 46 (if not more!) when Leo was born. And the CDC statistics on abortion clearly state that a woman cannot get pregnant after 44. So Leo must not ever have been born. Unless…oh, dear. I’m not misreading those pesky CDC statistics again, am I?
Karl R 76

Janet said: (#74)
“Ann didn’t say the CDC data was inaccurate,”
Ann said: (#61)
“In short, the CDC statistics are not representative of the phenomenon of abortion at large since they only include what is known and reported through very specific and defined channels.”

Feel free to read Ann’s statements in their original context.

Janet said: (#74)
“According to your logic, a 46-year-old woman can’t get pregnant”

I think the Guinness record is 66. According to my logic, women can’t get pregnant after menopause (on average, 51). Based on the miscarriage rates, they seem to have significant difficulty before then.

“Ann stated quite clearly at the beginning that she is researching what the potential for human reproduction is [...] Do you have any data that can actually answer her questions?”

Besides the world record (66), the average age of menopause (51), the miscarriage rate at age 45 (over 50%), the rate of downs syndrome at age 45 (1 in 30) and 49 (1 in 10)…

For older men: fathers in their 40s are 5.75 times as likely to have offspring with autism than fathers in their 20s and 30s. Their sperm also has substantially less motility.

If Ann is researching this, then why am I finding more information on this topic than she is? I’ve spent less than 15 minutes researching it.

I can say with certainty that a woman’s reproductive potential ends at a certain age, it diminishes as she ages, and the potential for genetic defects also increases as she ages.

Furthermore, I can say with reasonable certainty that a man’s reproductive potential doesn’t seem to end, though it also diminishes as he ages, and the potential for genetic defects also increase as he ages.

Janet said: (#73)
“no man is going around chasing tail [...] because he wants to impregnate that woman. Please. Let’s be real here. Getting her pregnant is the farthest thing from his mind. Ha!!!”

I find this statement surprising, since you just accused me of making ad hominem attacks.

How can you say that with certainty? Do you know the motivation of every man who is seeking a younger wife?

Last year I had one man tell me the story of what he went through (at the age of 50) to get a younger wife so he could have a second chance at raising a family. He was trying to persuade me to start while I was still young, and therefore spare myself the difficulty that he went through. (He couldn’t seem to understand that I do not want kids.) I doubt that he’s the only man for whom fatherhood is the primary motivation.
Evan Marc Katz 77

Ann and Janet,

To an objective third party, Karl is the one who is making more sense. Your point is that a 46 year old woman CAN have children biologically. Karl’s point is: who cares? Any man who wants his own biological children is going to spend most of his time looking for women 25-35. The fact that men’s fertility goes down as they age has absolutely no bearing on the situation. Whether he’s 25 or 75, if he wants kids, he’s looking for a woman younger than 40. All your statistics actually support Karl and miss the gist of the entire post.
Ann 78

EMK, I think a lot of people care if a 46-year-old woman can give birth. Especially all of those 46-year-old women who might/might not want to and the men who are in relationships with them and also might/might not want to. What about them?

I think you missed the gist of the thread, which, true, went off topic.

And just like woman of a certain age who haven’t chosen to reproduce, I would say that if a man of a certain age hasn’t chosen to reproduce he might not be as keen on it as some others and he might want to look at that. Unless, of course, he foolishly believes the myth that men can reproduce without problems until they are one foot in the grave.
Ann 79

Oh–sorry. One more thing. My point is not that a 46-year-old woman can give birth. That is beyond contest since it happens quite often. My point is that we don’t know what the natural rate of decline in fertility/fecundity is, neither for men nor for women. Yet fertility clinics, and the media who pick up their stats, present this as a known fact. It isn’t. That is all that I am saying. Janet added that there seem to be indicators that our ability to reproduce is probably changing.

So in my view, any kind of talk about what people are/aren’t “attracted” to or what people think is possible for them in relationship is just a bunch of hooey. No man can tell when a woman is fertile, if she is fertile, or when her fertility ends. Some women can get pregnant up until a year after their periods stop (so my ob/gyn counsels women entering menopause and thrilled to ditch their birth control), but no one can say who those women are. So there ya go. Ignore this at your peril.
Ann 80

Karl@76: Because what you are saying is irrelevant to what I am researching. As I said, I am not talking about whether or not women should get pregnant, or give birth, or what might happen if they do, I am talking about what the actual decline in the rate of fecundity (ability to conceive) is over the span of our lifetimes. This is a very important question for all of us, especially as more people are getting married later, as divorce and second families become more prevalent, and as more and more people (single women, gay couples, traditional hetero couples) turn to assisted reproduction to build their families. It’s even an important question to ask in terms of how changes to our environment and in our food supply are affecting our bodies. This is not some “feminist” issue to get your manly knickers in a twist over. Think about it.
sayanta 81

interesting tidbit- Marie Antoinette’s mother was around 42 when she gave birth to Miss Let-them-eat-cake. And that was in the 1700s…
A Reader 82

“Whether he’s 25 or 75, if he wants kids, he’s looking for a woman younger than 40.”
Yeah, maybe, but there is no way I would want to be stuck with some shriveled up 45, 55, 65 or 75 year old man and his kids unless he was R-I-C-H and he had already given me an irrevocable trust fund PLUS he had hired a 24/7 nanny for both him AND the kids. And I am sure I’m not the only woman who feels that way. Let men want what they want, but until they learn to be realistic they will continue to be disappointed.
Or they’ll keep kidding themselves into believing that the arm candy they’re escorting around sees them as anything but a wad of Benjamins. But the arm candy won’t be me.
Janet 83

Ann @78: Well put! And let’s take it a step further. If the demographic of this dating/relationship site (as I understand it) is primarily single women over 35, and all of the single men who might date them want women under 35 because these men forgot to procreate (and because men are only interested in sex with younger women for reasons of procreation–still very funny), who cares about those men? A man of any age who wants children is irrelevant to a woman of any age who does not want them or cannot have them. And vice versa. Not rocket science.
Joe 84

Come on Ann, even you have to concede that while a person doesn’t know what age a specific woman will stop being able to have kids, that the older she gets the more the odds decrease.
Ann 85

Joe@84: How would I know what the odds are of a specific woman or a specific man being able to have kids at any specific point in that specific person’s life? Even YOU have to concede that that’s a pretty hard thing to determine.
Karl R 86

Evan said: (#77)
“Any man who wants his own biological children is going to spend most of his time looking for women 25-35.”

Let’s turn it around. If women are concerned about the man’s fertility (and problems like autism) they may spend most of their time looking for men under 35 as well … regardless of their age.

If everyone starts doing this, then people who want kids probably shouldn’t wait until they turn 36 to start searching for a spouse.

Ann said: (#78)
“I think a lot of people care if a 46-year-old woman can give birth. Especially all of those 46-year-old women who might/might not want to and the men who are in relationships with them and also might/might not want to.”

In this particular thread (and I agree with you that it’s wandered), we’re discussing the decision-making process of single men and women who want to become parents. When they look at a potential spouse, do you think they would seek an older partner if they had more accurate statistics on fecundity?

Think about how people make decisions when the outcome really matters.

Let’s say that you have leukemia and you’re getting a bone marrow transplant. You research the statistics, and you discover that one hospital performs successful bone marrow transplants 78% of the time. Another hospital performs successful bone marrow transplants 83% of the time. Which hospital do you choose to have your bone marrow transplant at?

When the stakes are that high, even a small percentage is a huge deal.

Ann said: (#78)
“No man can tell when a woman is fertile, if she is fertile, or when her fertility ends.”

In my leukemia example, nobody knows whether the patient will survive the bone marrow transplant. But the patient will be trying to stack the odds in his/her favor.

Biology isn’t fair to women. Let’s say a couple gets married and discovers that one of them has fertility problems. If the man has the problems, it will cost about $2,000-3,000 for donor sperm and a cycle of artificial insemination. If the woman has the problems, it will cost approximately $15,000-20,000 to accomplish the same thing.

Ann said: (#78)
“any kind of talk about what people are/aren’t ‘attracted’ to or what people think is possible for them in relationship is just a bunch of hooey.”
A Reader said: (#82)
“there is no way I would want to be stuck with some shriveled up 45, 55, 65 or 75 year old man and his kids unless he was R-I-C-H”

Ann, I would say most people can give you an explicit answer about what they are/aren’t attracted to in a relationship.

Janet said: (#83)
“If the demographic of this dating/relationship site (as I understand it) is primarily single women over 35,”

That’s probably not correct. I just checked the ages of women on Match.com within 10 miles of my location.
age 25-29 = 720
age 30-34 = 607
age 35-39 = 516
age 40-44 = 447
age 45-49 = 358

The younger women are also more likely to be interested in procreating.
Selena 87

How many women, proportionately, in their 40′s are desiring to have children these days? Anyone know? Anyone want to take a guess?

I know very few women who had their first or subsequent children over 40, though I can name a few celeb’s if pressed. Biologically possible or not, trend or not, the vast majority of women who want biological children seem to manage to get this done in their 20′s to mid 30′s. I know some who got tubal ligations so as to avoid any “accidents” after having acheived the number of children they wanted. Seems to me women who are willing to have children past the age of 40, just might be a small niche in the dating pool. And maybe that’s what fellows in their 40′s who want biological children are coming up against – there really are fewer women within their age range who even want children – even if theoretically they could have them.

A 50-something friend of mine made this comment once when referring to a co-worker who had her first baby at 44, and hoped to have another one in a couple years: ” It’s easy to raise a baby when you’re in your 40′s. The thing to think about is, do you really want to be raising teenagers when you’re in your 60′s?”

I think that might weigh in with some women who’ve already been there.
Karl R 88

Selena asked: (#87)
“How many women, proportionately, in their 40′s are desiring to have children these days? Anyone know? Anyone want to take a guess?”

Checking Match.com for women in my area:
Ages 40-44
12% definitely
11% someday
31% not sure
13% probably not
12% do not want kids
20% no, but it’s okay if their partner has kids

Ages 45-49
3% definitely
1% someday
20% not sure
14% probably not
31% do not want kids
30% no, but it’s okay if their partner has kids

I wouldn’t call it a representative sample of all women, but Adam is probably seeing similar statistics in the women he’s looking at on the dating site.
Joe 89

Ann said: (#85)
“How would I know what the odds are of a specific woman or a specific man being able to have kids at any specific point in that specific person’s life?”

I didn’t ask you to know the odds. I asked you concede that the odds decrease as age increases (reading for comprehension). Would you say that any individual’s odds for having healthy children are exactly the same when they’re 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 and 70?
Helen 90

Of course fertility declines with age. Trying to argue one’s way around this by talking about this individual or that individual is irrelevant. Fertility declines in EVERY individual with age.

It’s called telomeres. If you wish, look it up.

Of course, I’d argue that fertility shouldn’t be the deciding factor in romantic relationships, since: 1) people can adopt, 2) people can seek alternative treatments, and 3) kids are not the be-all-and-end-all of a relationship.
Ann 91

Helen @ 90: Well put. However, I am not making assertions one way or the other about whether or not the ability to conceive decreases over time. I agree that it seems to, for everyone, and certainly everyone believes that this is so. But there is no empirical data that addresses the observed decline in a control group–the only data on the subject comes out of fertility clinics. These numbers cannot serve as control data since these clinics cherry-pick their clients–I mean, patients–to up their apparent rates of success. (This is where the CDC data on assisted reproduction comes from.) I believe it is unethical for fertility clinics to cherry-pick (first off) and then to present this data as an empirical study in what is possible regarding human reproduction.

Karl@86: I think Janet was talking about EMK’s site, not dating sites in general. Also, correct me if I am wrong (and I’m sure you will), but hasn’t EMK said that most of his clients are women over 35 or 40, some such? If that’s so, it is strange to me to say “who cares” about a 46-year-old client’s possible pregnancy or to suggest that this would not be an issue for these women when dating or in relationship. This is where more information on what can happen would come in handy, so that all of us can make good decisions for ourselves when it comes to reproduction. And reproduction, as I’ve learned here, is the main reason that people are out there hooking up, right?

Joe @ 89: First you say you aren’t asking me what the odds are, then you ask me if I will concede that the odds decrease. If I don’t know what they are to begin with, how I can answer the second question?
Janet 92

Ann@91: Yes, I was talking about this site.

Karl @ 86: They might pick an older partner. EMK did.
Evan Marc Katz 93

I did, Janet but I took a BIG risk. Most men are NOT willing to take the same risk that they won’t be able to have their own biological children. Why? Because women’s fertility drops like a rock after 36.

http://www.advancedfertility.com/age.htm

All this subterfuge about whether an individual 45 year old woman can have kids or an individual 30 year old man is infertile or whether fertility clinic data is valid misses the broader point: when men are interested in starting families, they usually look to younger women to do so. As they SHOULD. Any exceptions don’t disprove the rule. And the perceived “unfairness” doesn’t change it either.

Which is why women 30-35 should take their love lives VERY seriously. That’s why I’m still beating this dead horse. Because any woman who is holding out hope that Mr. I Want to Have a My Own Biological Kids is going to choose to marry her at age 46 is in for a rude awakening. Sorry for that completely objective reality check.
Janet 94

EMK@36: I’m not sure why you think I have any vested interest in this. I don’t. Like Ann, I don’t care who pursues whom or for what reason. I’m all set in that regard and in the kids regard, too! But even for those of us who are all set, pregnancy/birth control are still an issues. How much more complicated it might be if I were dating! But you want this thread to be all about “older” men wanting children, rather than “older” women having full and correct information about what is going on in their bodies. Whatever. I hardy care about it.

Not sure where the “unfairness” part joined the conversation–I think that was from Karl. Not Ann, and certainly not me. I don’t think biology is unfair. I’m sure that many woman are quite happy to be done with all of that childbearing stuff. Not all of us define ourselves in relation to what our uteri (and related parts) offer men. Even as we adore our men and love our lives with them.
Karl R 95

Ann said: (#91)
“I am not making assertions one way or the other about whether or not the ability to conceive decreases over time. [...] there is no empirical data that addresses the observed decline in a control group the only data on the subject comes out of fertility clinics.”

Your entire contention is based on your claim that all of the available data comes from fertility clinics. Yet you have not offered one shred of proof to back up this claim.

Read this article:
http://www.obgyn.net/displayarticle.asp?page=/women/articles/smith/smith_0399

The author is an OB/GYN and laparoscopic surgeon. I took a look at his ciriculum vitae, and it seems fairly obvious that most of his work involves laparoscopic procedures, both orthopedic and OB/GYN. Since the primary laparoscopic OB/GYN procedures (that spring to my mind) are hysterectomies and oopherectomies, I think we can safely conclude that he’s not in the fertility business.

He discusses how women’s ovaries start with 6 million eggs (while they are still fetuses in the womb). This number decreases to 300,000 eggs by the onset of puberty. Unless fetuses and prepubescent girls are visiting fertility specialists, I’d say there’s adequate evidence that someone did a lifelong study on fertility with a control group.

Quoting the article:
“After the age of 35 this disintegration and atrophy of the eggs begins to accelerate, and by the time a woman stops her menses, essentially all her eggs are gone. But of more importance to the perimenopausal woman is the fact that a large portion of these eggs are not viable during these last few years. That is, the egg may be released, but it cannot be fertilized or it will end in a miscarriage because of chromosomal problems. Thus, a woman’s fertility begins to decline significantly after the age of 35. Spontaneous and successful pregnancies after the age of 40 become less common, and after the age of 45 are rare (but not zero!).”

So I’ve given you information from an OB/GYN who is clearly not in the fertility business. He’s relying on data that clearly comes from an empirical control study.

Ann,
Why should any woman (of any age) place more weight on your claims than on those of an OB/GYN with two Ph.D.s and no bias on the subject? Why should any woman (of any age) place more weight on your claims than on the statistics provided by the March of Dimes, who again have no bias on the subject. (The March of Dimes got their statistics on miscarriages from The National Vital Statistics Report, another nonbiased source.)

And according to the article I provided the link to, you can’t get pregnant after menopause (without medical intervention). However, since ovulations and menses become sporadic, it becomes difficult ascertain when they’ve actually ceased. That’s why your doctor recommends that you stay on birth control.

People listen to facts. (Edit: most people listen to facts; a few people seem proud to be exceptions to the rule.) If you want people to listen to you, post some facts that support your point of view.
Janet 96

Karl @95: Interesting article. Sort of. There’s is no link to the original studies supporting his assertions. So dig deeper, if you will, since you seem to have a lot of time to do this sort of thing. As you say, most people listen to facts, not assertions (though I agree with you that most people will listen more to the assertions of someone with a bunch of letters after his/her name than to an anonymous person on a blog). (Though those of us who hang around with PhDs in this and that often find their credibility wanting. Ha! )
Ann 97

Janet@96: I know–it’s very funny! But yes, I’d like to see the original studies, too. Can you look them up for us, Karl, please?

Re: the “facts.” When you are a woman you get very used to the “facts” regarding your reproductive stuff (as passed on by your ob/gyn and the media) changing every few years. My friends and I have always been amused by it. But it’s always nice to know what they are saying these days.
Helen 98

Let’s get one thing straight, for once and for all:

THE SCIENTIFIC DATA OVERWHELMINGLY SHOW THAT FERTILITY DECLINES WITH AGE. A mechanism of action has even been established for how this happens.

This is true not just of those who visit fertility clinics, but in all humans male or female, across all age groups, and in all sexual organisms including plants and other animals. Sorry to use all caps, but how else can the point get across at this stage? If you don’t believe this, please do a PubMed search.

Why do people feel so intent on trying to disprove this? Is the deeper concern that these facts might make 40+ women feel as though they’re less attractive because of reproductive issues? There are plenty of men who don’t feel the need for biological children, or indeed, children at all. Indeed, there are plenty of single men who already have biological children but want a partnership with another woman who doesn’t want any more kids. There are all sorts of men and women, all sorts of desires. Fertility or lack thereof does not in any way imply that one can’t find a beautiful relationship.

Karl R #95: “Unless fetuses and prepubescent girls are visiting fertility specialists…” “most people listen to facts; a few people seem proud to be exceptions to the rule”… oh my.
Ann 99

Helen @ 98: I don’t know that anyone is disputing/asserting this except you and Karl, though I would contest your assertion that this decline is also true for other animals and plants (read “Why Is Sex Fun” about the evolution of human sexuality by Pulitzer Prize- winner Jared Diamond–he says that humans are the only mammal where the females undergo menopause, and his analysis of this from an evolutionary point of view is just fascinating). And I would also contest your assertion that this decline is well understood scientifically.

But you and Karl seem to believe that it’s all figured out, so perhaps in your surety you can help me in finding the empirical research to prove it, since that is what I am looking for and have not been able to find. Again (till I am blue in the face I have said this, but let me rephrase and maybe it will get through this time): What I am looking for is a longitudinal study on the arc of female fecundity in humans. Ideally it would have been published in a peer-reviewed journal, but at this point I would take any study, even if not published or reviewed by peers. To be considered “scientific,” the study must 1) state an assertion that can be disproved (if it can’t be disproved then it cannot be proved & therefore falls into the category of “beliefs”); 2) be able to be replicated; and 3) have predictive value.

Let me explain how this works and why what you are asserting is not persuasive to me: Starting with Karl’s recommended site and all of those numbers. They are no good for the purpose of proving anything scientifically because they are without attribution to any source, which begs the question, Where do these numbers come from? And then the next question, what methodology was used to arrive at these numbers? Take the first one from Karl’s link–the number of eggs human females are born with. Is this number from autopsies on female fetuses? Or from some kind of recent (last 20 years) imaging technology? How many newborn females were studied? From what demographic? Was the sample representative?

OK, you answer all of these questions. We’re still left with the biggest problem–the “longitudinal” part. Since we’re talking about change over time, the study would have to be longitudinal. In this case, the study, to be definitive, would have to have been conducted over the course of several decades, studying a representative female population over the course of their reproductive lives–almost 60 years. If that study were completed today it would have to have been started in 1950, and you would have had to have had parents in that pre-digital age who were willing to have their newborn daughters have their ovaries opened up and their eggs counted and those females would have to have been tracked for six decades–and still, the results of the study would have been affected by the subjects’ choices regarding reproduction. You can see how unlikely such a study is. So I suspect that an empirical study of the arc of female fecundity in humans does not exist. (We won’t even get into such a study on male fecundity–it would be impossible!!)

What this leaves us with is a lot of theories about how female reproduction works, theories that change too often for my comfort. As I said, we can observe a lot of things in this regard and make inferences and assumptions, but we can’t explain much. And here is the problem with those inference and assumptions: If a woman goes to that website that Karl referred to she might think that she can get pregnant because acc to the “facts” so presented she’s got millions of good eggs left. But then she goes to the CDC site for assisted reproduction and sees that there is a significant number of women in her age range who are deemed infertile. Confusing–which group is she in? Or a woman goes to Karl’s site and thinks she can’t get pregnant because the site says that because of her age her eggs are all dried up. And then she goes to the CDC site on abortion and sees that there are women 44+ having abortions. Confusing–which group is she in?

In other words, because there are so many exceptions to the “rules” as laid down by the reproductive experts you’ve put forth, there is no predictive value in any of this information. So how useful is it on an individual level (let’s say, if you are picking a woman and assuming she can bear you children when she can’t, or if you are shacking up with someone because you are assuming that she can’t bear a child, but she can) to say that one’s ability to bear children declines over time if you can’t say how or when or why? Again, these are big unknowns.

For me the deeper issue is not about how men will respond to women, though I suppose that is the discussion that EMK was launching with this letter. For me the deeper issue is what was expressed very early on in this thread–women and the men who would be in relationship with them should have all the information possible, whether they want children or not.

So if either of you can find that longitudinal study, that would be great. Just post the link here and I’ll be sure to read it.

And thanks for the lively debate about this!!! It’s been very helpful in clarifying my ideas and figuring out the best way to present them.
Ann 100

Helen: Wow! Thanks so much for that PubMed site! I has great info on it. Not exactly what I’m looking for, which would be a study on what is normative (everything there is about what goes wrong and why). But there were a couple of papers that were very intriguing (could only read the abstracts):

1) One said that until the modern age, when advanced research techniques allowed us to observe the connection between menstrual cycles and female fecundity, people believed that overall good health was the main indicator of a woman’s ability to conceive. (This belief has been disproved, of course, even though men in the dating pool haven’t caught up. Question: In the absence of a normative study on the arc of human female fecundity, what other beliefs are waiting to be disproved? )

2) The really interesting one for me, because I was wondering how increasing lifespans would affect human fecundity. Keep in mind that what is being broached in this paper is a theory, a belief, and is not a “fact.” But read the abstract for “Menopause, evolution and changing cultures” anyway (italics mine):

The menopause is an isolated event in a much wider process that was probably an evolutionary adaptation essential for survival in the Pliocene. As a reproductive strategy, it is largely vestigial in the 21st century, part of an era that has seen a doubling of the average human longevity compared with that of the past. This process commences as an accelerated decline in female fertility, usually from the fourth decade of life, culminating in a total cessation of reproductive capacity for those surviving. The 20th and 21st century sees a huge increase in the numbers surviving and the duration of that postreproductive life phase extending for decades. This extended period of what is essentially a hormone deficiency state is a recent phenomenon and by no means part of the natural history of the human individual. It is therefore not surprising to see a postmenopausal increase in the incidence of so many disorders above that expected by age alone. Recent reproductive patterns have seen increases in the birth rate and requests for fertility treatments among women in their late 30s and 40s. Many try for pregnancy but are unsuccessful. The genes that permit later reproduction and hence later menopause are therefore being preferentially selected. Slowly over generations we will expect to see the fertility of future 40 year olds increase and the age of menopause to extend much later into our, now, longer lives.
Fascinating!! I knew there was a reason I was on this blog. Thanks again, Helen!
Michael 101

All this subterfuge about whether an individual 45 year old woman can have kids or an individual 30 year old man is infertile or whether fertility clinic data is valid misses the broader point: when men are interested in starting families, they usually look to younger women to do so. As they SHOULD. Any exceptions don’t disprove the rule. And the perceived unfairness doesn’t change it either.

This is true.

I do find younger women attractive, and understand this is the exact, sole reason.
Karl R 102

Ann, (#99)
You might want to read the information provided before you criticize it.

Ann said: (#99)
“If a woman goes to that website that Karl referred to she might think that she can get pregnant because acc to the ‘facts’ so presented she’s got millions of good eggs left.”

By “millions” I’m going to assume you meant at least 2 million. According to that website, females only have 300,000 eggs by the onset of puberty (starting with 6 million as a fetus). By my conservative estimates, that means a female could only have 2 million eggs if she was at least two years younger than the age of puberty.

That would be a bit young for her to be reproducing.

Ann said: (#99)
“But then she goes to the CDC site for assisted reproduction and sees that there is a significant number of women in her age range who are deemed infertile.”

Are you referring to women over the age of 35?

Ann said: (#99)
“Confusing which group is she in?”

If she’s not certain whether she’s under 10 or over 35 … I’d say fertility is the least of her worries.

You haven’t demonstrated that you’ve carefully read the links we’ve provided. (You’ve demonstrated to my satisfaction that you carelessly read them.) You haven’t read any of the peer-reviewed medical journal articles cited in those links. (Or apparently even noticed that a couple of them listed the articles they cited from.)

What possible motive would I have to spend my time (or more accurately, my girlfriend’s time, since she’s the one with access to a medical library) searching for an article that you’ll misunderstand, even if you bother to read it in its entirety?
Janet 103

Ann@99 & 100: Interesting stuff!!

Michael@101: Go after whoever you want! Nobody cares.
Evan Marc Katz 104

Just preemptively posting specifically for Ann, who seems to think that I only post ideas that I agree with. If you’ve taken a look at the comments over the years, it’s clear that this is patently false. Your comment was deleted because it was insulting to another reader. The next one was deleted because it was insulting to me. Such comments – ones that involve name-calling to either me or another poster – are not something I want on my website…however any arguments that seem reasonable are posted. Which is why I’ve posted all of your other arguments, even though I didn’t agree with any of them.

And, as previously stated on this blog, if you don’t like the quality of the conversation here, or the point of view expressed by yours truly, there are millions of other blogs out there. No need to get bent out of shape at me.
O-Tay 105

@Michael #101 (Feb 10th ’09)
You said you seek out younger women because they look better and that’s the sole purpose of going for them. Well, someone already gave a response to this by saying that you- as an older man- need to be aware that you are competing with younger men who also look BETTER , have younger bodies & are not so hung up on old fashion traditions as older men. Also, younger men can be shown the ropes as lovers instead of being set in their ways. They also seemed to support the idea of womenhaving dreams and careers. Older guys seem to only want someone who is young and nothing more, really.
Dear Julia 106

I am 31 and was previously married to a man who is now 50. When we met he was an extremely hot 39 year old, he didn’t look his age, he was super buff and fun to be with. I have worked in modeling and am considered a beautiful girl. Unknown to me at the time, my ex was completely shallow and into my looks, that is why he wanted me. I didn’t think much of it at the time, but now realize how gross that was.

It is similarly gross to me that the men I know at work who are 40+ are interested and think they should have a chance with me. I am told I look like I am in my early to mid-twenties. Why in the world would I want a guy with graying hair, love handles and a saggy jaw line? Is it that they make $250K? It isn’t enough to me that they are successful and make a decent salary… I am successful on my own and make $15oK, not as much as these older men, but enough to get me by. Men need to get a clue, women just aren’t willing to settle like they once were. Pretty women who have a brain and are successful can have what they want. Men shouldn’t be threatened by it, but they should be realistic when setting goals.

I realized too late what a mistake it was for me to be with older men. My ex changed dramatically in his attitudes and looks somewhere between 43-48; he hit the wall. That entire situation, it was a real wake up call with regard to age. Now, I wouldn’t consider being interested in a guy who is more than 4 or 5 years older.

Even in this Adam’s situation, he is 42 now. If he is lucky enough to find a younger woman, she probably won’t want to hurry into getting pregnant. Isn’t it good to have couple time before hurrying into children? Realistically, he may be a first time dad at 44 or 45. Do the math, he will be the 52 year old dad at the little league game.
mermaids614 107

I tire of older guys stating they don’t want a woman older than around 34 because they want kids. I think it’s just an excuse. It’s obvious that the original poster just wants a younger woman. Point blank. He’s trying to save face by stating that he wants kids, blah blah blah. So many women are having healthy children in their late 30s/early 40s. If children were so important to this man, perhaps he shouldn’t have waited until HE was in his 40′s to take action. It appears that no matter the reason, when men hit 30, they want younger women. I’m female, 33 and I’ve noticed this a lot since I turned 30. Male friends and associates my age that I’ve known for years are aggressively seeking women around the age of 22. Why, I don’t know. At 22, women are having fun, self-absorbed, don’t want children yet, still trying to figure out who they are and what they want, and some act like teenagers. This is why I would never date a younger man (no more than 2 or 3 years younger) because, sure, some guys in their early to mid 20s have no problem dating a 33 year old, but once that guy gets a few years older, he’s going to want someone younger. For me, in the past year, I’ve realized that at my age, I would love a guy thats in his early 40s, handsome, established, successful–that sounds like a 10! So the original poster may need to look at himself and find out what the problem is. It isn’t women in their 30s!
mermaids614 108

Another thing, I have one son, had him at 16 and he’s about to go to college. I’m open to having more children, but I don’t have to have more. I don’t feel the need to settle just so I can have another. Since my son is almost grown, I am looking for someone who doesn’t have small children and their mother needing or wanting something every day. I am looking for someone who I can just pick up and go travel somewhere with any time. He’s not confined because he has his kids for the weekend, he’s not making child support payments, whatever. Not saying being a teen mom was an ideal situation, but I’m 33 now and I feel like I have my pick!
lynn 109

Here’s a thought: maybe, just maybe, he picked the wrong niche website to join.

A lot of the mainstream dating sites like Match.com attract serial daters. They may say they want to marry/settle down, but if their lifestyles contradict this, don’t believe them.

Last year I went out with a guy (I met him on craigslist, but he also has a profile on match.com) who started talking about marriage on the first date, mentioned my age and that I “could still have kids” (I was 40 & he was 41 at the time), and I said yes, but that’s probably not first-date conversation material. Still, he’s all about what kind of ring do I like – gold or platinum – where I’d like to go on honeymoon, etc etc.

Of course, when he wasn’t talking about marriage, he was going on about how his uncle is a manager at a local strip club and all about all the strippers he has dated etc etc. I eventually confronted him about this, and he told me he only mentioned those women to me because he wanted me to feel good about “being a nice person.” (Huh?)

He also travels a great deal in his profession – semi-retired military, but still somewhat involved in that, and also is an adventure tour guide and a security consultant.

I got the feeling early on when we were dating that he knew things about me I hadn’t told him. Sometimes he would let drop some bit of information I had only told one person, and over the phone, or via email. So, I eventually deduced he was tapping my phone and surveilling my email (I had no idea at first that he was doing this, and I’m not sure if he was working with Homeland Security or some other agency that doesn’t require a warrant for this sort of thing? ). Anyway, that made me feel really weird. He never openly confessed to doing this, but he didn’t exactly deny it either. He told me his ex-wife had an affair for two years before leaving him, and he never knew about it – it totally came out of nowhere and he promised himself he would never let that happen again.

So, here’s a guy with a transient lifestyle, questionable social skills, and an extremely self-sabotaging habit of surveilling his girlfriends, which shows he can never really trust a woman again, so that kind of precludes having a healthy, long-term intimate relationship.

If he really wanted to be married, wouldn’t he adopt some better habits?

Anyway, the moral of the story is:

1. From now on, I only join “matrimonial” sites, not “dating” sites. If you want a serious relationship, don’t join a site where “casual dating”, “friendship only”, “hang out”, “physical/intimate only” are among the options listed when you create your profile. Good sites for serious daters: setformarriage.com, marriagemindedpeoplemeet.com, Shaadi.com.

2. Consider your match’s actual lifestyle and habits. What they say they want may not, in reality, be what they are ready to have.

3. As far as the age thing, my bf was just 1 year older than I. It’s nice to date a guy with some of the same high school memories as you (we attended different, but rival schools in the same city). I generally prefer a 5 year age range too – either 5 years older or 5 years younger. I figure I will have more in common with someone close to the same age. The kids issue notwithstanding — people in their 30s and 40s may or may not already have kids and may or may not be in a hurry to have (more of) them — it’s nice to be with someone who doesn’t treat you like a child (i.e. much older men) or like a substitute mom (i.e. much younger men).
Christie Hartman 110

This guy's problem isn't his age. Most women are willing to date older men, especially if the age difference is under 10 years. If he's as great as he says he is and isn't getting responses, there's some other issue – he's doing something that's turning women off.
moon 111

Adam,

How ’bout a date?

moonsical
DN 112

He says he is looking to date a woman in her mid 30′s, so let’s say his youngest target age is 35…which means he is looking for a woman 7 years younger than himself. Is he willing to date a woman 7 years older? If not, then don’t complain about women who aren’t willing to make the same compromise.

I realize the crux of this post is that a man wants a younger woman if he wants to have his own biological children. True – but women have more options now and so we don’t have to look to older men as our only dating pool.
As another poster commented, a child should be the result of love between two people, not the ultimate end goal. If a child is your main goal, you can have one without a partner. Problem solved. But, if you want both a child and a partner then you may have to compromise.
But to me it seems like it all comes down to the fact that he isn’t finding what he wants within the parameters he’s set for himself. So Adam – as women are so often told to do – may have to adjust what he is looking for. He may have to look for a woman older than his target age range and take the risk that might mean fertility treatments or adoption.
Lanbee 113

I have to say that we are all missing the important point here…it’s not female fertility or youthful looks, it’s about love and wanting to spend a lifetime of marriage with someone you can truly connect with. If all you are looking for is someone who looks fantastic and younger than I am sorry, but that isn’t real at all…and it won’t last. You want something deeper and the world may tell you that superficiality is the way to go but you will never be happy if you chose to find a partner soley on fertility or youth. So, men who have said all they want is younger women don’t truley see women for what they are inside and won’t ever be able to be happy and truley connect because all they want is sex and I know that is not the ONLY thing that matters to you. Just because you are men doesn’t mean that is the only thing you want or need in this life. These men (who feel this way) will never be fullfilled and with a true lifelong companion. I tell you this now so you can change your destination before you go chasing down emptiness.
Adrienne 114

Here’s an idea – Don’t do online dating. Do Meetup.com instead. Example I’m in a group for ‘women 35 to 50′ – have been for 2 years. Joined when I turned 35. In the past 2 years we have expanded our circle/have an email list of men that we invite to our gatherings, joined up with other meetup groups for men, and just singles. It’s not about ‘dating’. It’s about meeting people in our age group that we can go out and have a great time with. However, many romances have bloomed via this way.

I know – old fashioned. Whoda thunk it – you don’t need to be online to date someone (I’ve never done the online thing – just not for me) – but you DO need a circle of women and men who bring friends to events that they can introduce you to. I’ve intro’d 3 couples that are still together this way. And met my current boyfriend via a connection made via a meetup at a private party.

Meetup is like ‘college’ all over again for people in their 30′s and 40′s that want to be out there, doing things, experiencing things – not sitting behind a laptop clicking names. You get another advantage – you are meeting age appropriate women (for your age group) AND you get the benefit of knowing you already share an interest in common activities.

Networking and socializing are an art form for sure – but it’s so critical when we are single at 35 and beyond to make sure we have a large circle of friends, are circulating, putting ourselves out there, taking care of our appearance, and putting our best selves forward so we CAN meet someone fabulous.

Never say dieeeeeeeeeeeee!
Cat 115

@Adrienne – You can do both online dating and Meetup.com. The latter is a great way to have hobbies and activities to talk about on your dating profile (and on dates!) There’s no reason to limit yourself to one or the other. What’s really great is that while you’re out with your Meetup group–perhaps not meeting that perfect guy–your online profile is chugging away 24/7 reaching as many people as possible. Just because you have a dating profile doesn’t mean you’re sitting at home. I’m usually at tango!
Tia 116

31 year old here, i have been dating older men for quite some time, thats what i seem to attract, and i guess you could say thats what i like. when i was 29 i was dating a 41 year old, now my current beau is 40. I don’t think that the 40 year old set is that much more inclined to want to settle down than the 30 year old set actually. sometimes the younger ones will take more risks because they have not “been through it” yet. Alot of the ones who are not married by 40s have serious reasons for this, be it social awkwardness, commitmentophobes, bad personalities , undateable for whatever reason.etc. iim not saying ALL by any means, but a considerable amount of them.

Not to mention if a man hasn’t been married by 40 his chances for ever tying the knot drop drastically, if we are to believe the studies?
Michael 117

First of all, this article is a matter of opinion. Katz does not speak for all women in general, and they all do not think the same. Single men in their 40′s is not old; they just have not found “Miss Right.” I firmly disagree with Katz because she failed to provide where she got her sources. Statistics show that women do prefer older men based on their maturity, financial stability, well experienced, and well settled in a home of their own. Older men are not likely to cheat, leave the wife at home alone, while he hangs out with his buddies, and play video games, etc. If Katz takes a good look around, she will find women that are married to men 10 or 20 years older then they are. What do younger women find in older men? Responsibility, financial security, able to make wise decisions, and must be able solve difficult situations in a marriage. And most importantly, older men are committed in having a lifelong relationship. Does Katz dare to challenge these facts?
Evan Marc Katz 118

@Michael – Oh yes, I dare. In fact, only 5% of all relationships involve a man who is more than 10 years older than the woman. As such, there are are lot more men who THINK they deserve a younger woman than actual younger women who WANT them. At no point do I speak for all women or men. I make generalizations because I must. Go on Match.com, see how many women are looking for men 20 years older, and you’ll have your answer.
Karl R 119

Michael said: (#117)
“I firmly disagree with Katz because she failed to provide where she got her sources.”

Evan is male, not female. The correct pronoun is “he.”

Michael said: (#117)
“Statistics show that women do prefer older men based on their maturity, financial stability, well experienced, and well settled in a home of their own.”

And your source for this is….

Kind of hypocritical for you to state that Evan is wrong because he doesn’t cite his source, yet you offer no source for your “statistics.”

OkCupid did a series of statistical studies on what their clients (male and female) preferred. If you look at the relevant chart, the majority of women capped their age preference at 6-8 years older than they were….
http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/the-case-for-an-older-woman/

The women under the age of 30 showed some tendency to pursue men older than themselves in preference to younger men (and by older/younger, I mean at least 1 year older or younger). Once they were in their 30s, there was a slight tendency to pursue younger men instead of older ones.

But if you have a study that shows otherwise, I’m interested in seeing it.
Selena 120

@117

I don’t know where you live Michael, but when I take a good look around I see mostly women who are married to men within 6 years of their own age, often less.

I’m not in any way suggesting there is anything wrong with larger age differences (I was in a relationship with someone 15 yrs. my senior for several years), but it has been my observation that the majority of women, of any age, do not prefer or seek out for partners men who are more than a decade older than themselves.

Ofcourse my observation is that of middle Americans. It doesn’t take into account the matches between multi-millionaires and models. Or men who solicit partnerships with women from other, perhaps less advantaged countries.
Zaq 121

Sorry Evan, I think you are wrong. Michael is correct. I am suspicious of the statistic you quote of 5%.
Let me say that in my social circle there are not just a few, but alot of marriages with a age difference of 10, 20 or 30 years.
If the figure of 5% includes those who have been in a long term relationship where they met while they were young, it is worthless.

We are only interested in those relationships that start when men are in their 40s and 50s. Fortunately a study has been done by I think AARP which if memory serves, showed that the average age difference of men marrying in their 40s was 7 years. In their 50s it was 10 years.
This was the average of ALL men, not rich men. Since this was the average, a significant proportion had age gaps more than this.
Frankly, this is the only statistic that counts because it shows who is SUCCESSFUL.

So OK Cupid finds that women are looking for a man a couple of years older – so what ? The same study showed that men were looking for women much younger. Women are extremely picky and they all want someone who is tall, dark, handsome, athletic, intelligent, educated, wealthy ….etc. Their chances of success is pretty close to nil.
There are speed dating studies that show that what women are attracted to is not necessarily what was on their wish list. Many women ARE attracted to older men – Michael is correct.

But perhaps Evan, you are honestly expressing the reality you see in this unreal world of online dating, where women are persuaded that actually they really do have a choice, and they can hold out for Prince Charming, and routinely dismiss men that in the real world are out of their league.
Evan Marc Katz 122

Unlike many people, Zaq, my loyalty is to the TRUTH, not what I believe. Here is the study (linked in a sidebar to a NYTimes article), which shows that the percentage of relationships where the man is 10 years older is about 7%.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/fashion/15women.html

Now stop your complaining that women are too picky and start dating a woman your own age, okay?
C. 123

I agree with Tia. In my experience, if a man is not married past his late 30s, he’s a commitment phobe. I’ve only dated one man close to a decade older than me. And he cheated on me. Same happened to my friend recently who was with an older guy for 3 years. I even know of a beautiful young leggy blond who was engaged to a guy 20 years older than her, and broke the engagement because he was cheating all over the place! So I don’t agree that older men are more mature or make better matches than guys closer to my own age.
Selena 124

@123

Anecdotally, I can say I don’t believe older men cheat less either.
Zaq 125

Well all I can say is ouch !
Evan, I have no doubt at all of your commitment to the truth, especially the problems you have in imparting that to those who do not want to listen. I see in your recent post the frustration in seeing people not being given the chance due to the dating criteria being applied online.
I know when people build a model of how the universe works in their minds, and use that as a blueprint to how they should live their lives, then it is very very difficult for them to change that view.
However, I personally have rejected a belief system at great personal cost when faced with reality, and I hope that I will continue to reject any view no matter how cherished, if it is incorrect.
So I am prepared to accept that the reality of the relationships I see around me may not be representative of the population as a whole.
As an aside, I should say I know a guy who is 5.5 and married to someone 10 years younger, so in the real world you do get a chance!
But, here’s the thing, you have to show the data that prove it.

The NY times article i have read before, but I didn’t look at the data. The percentage of ALL marriages where there is a 10 or more year age difference is 7%. But this includes all the twenty somethings whose age difference is only two years. If they are excluded the figure is going to be far higher than 7%.
I thought I should go back and recheck my sources, and I must say I am WRONG. There were TWO studies.
The first AARP study is called Lifestyles,Dating and Romance a study of midlife singles. This is a very in depth analysis of dating habits of those over 40 and shows that about 90% of the men wish to date younger women (Duh!), but more to the point near 60% succeeded in dating above 5 years younger, and a third had a current partner more than 10 years younger.
The second study is by Stanford University quote “In first marriages, men are typically a couple years older than women, but the older men are when they marry, and it doesn’t matter whether it’s a first or a second marriage, the more years they marry down. Men in their 40s tend to marry women who average seven years younger, and men in their 50s are marrying brides who average 11 years younger”
“They say the male ideal of beauty is found in women in their early 20s, and that ideal remains fixed for men no matter that they themselves are growing older. Women may be a little more indifferent to age than men are because they are not judging people as much on looks” – Paula England and research partner Elizabeth McClintock.
Ok Karl – you like to pick holes in this stuff – where am I wrong ?
Karl R 126

Zaq said: (#121)
“Fortunately a study has been done by I think AARP which if memory serves, …”

I’m not about to trust your memory. Please post a link or cite a published source.

Zaq said: (#121)
“Many women ARE attracted to older men – Michael is correct.”

According to US Census data, there are 4.0 million men who are 10 or more years older than their wives. That’s only 7.2% of the married men in the US.

For comparison, 32.4% were within one year of their wife’s age.
http://www.allcountries.org/uscensus/56_married_couples_by_differences_in_ages.html

Tia said: (#116)
“Not to mention if a man hasn’t been married by 40 his chances for ever tying the knot drop drastically, if we are to believe the studies?”

Again, what studies?

Percentage of men never married:
40 to 49 20.2%
50 to 59 14.1%
60 to 69 4.8%
70 on up 3.2%

See Table 3 (All Races)
http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/marr-div/2004detailed_tables.html

That seems to refute your claim. If there’s a study that supports your point of view, find it. I can’t.
Karl R 127

Zaq said: (#125)
“Ok Karl – you like to pick holes in this stuff – where am I wrong ?”

Thanks for naming one of your sources.

From Zaq’s AARP source:
“Most midlife and older men want to date younger women. Many midlife and older women, by choice or need, want to date younger men, ironically making men and women’s age preference in dates incompatible.”

Zaq said: (#125)
“near 60% succeeded in dating above 5 years younger, and a third had a current partner more than 10 years younger.”

Did you notice that they’re including men who are dating other men in those numbers?

Only 16% of the women were dating partners who were 5 or more years older. Only 6% of the women were dating partners who were 10 or more years older.

Does the Stanford study have a name?
C. 128

(yawn) All these studies and percentages and stats…who cares?!?
Zaq, having read a bunch of your posts, I think you are too concerned with data and proving a point..and I’m not even sure what your point is anymore.
Dating should be fun, not a math equation.
Zaq 129

C.
Yes you are right, it is boring. Science is boring to most people, but it deals with facts, not conjecture, not feelings.
Its important. Why do women reject most men at speed dating, but not the other way around ? “i need to feel chemistry” “If I wait, he will come”
“Of course the average man is 6 feet tall and earns 60k”
Feelings do not help us if they are at odds with reality

The whole point of this is that – the title is why don’t women in their 30s not want to date men in their 40s. Well the fact is that they do, and women in their late 30s are on average marrying men well into their 40s and even 50s – FACT
These scientists are not amateurs, and their studies are submitted for peer review. They will get savaged if they put a poor case forward. Their careers depend on this. Have some faith.
I just hate woolly thinking
I will now cease boring people. Karl, hint – the men are dating women in their 30s
C. 130

So Zaq, you’re saying that Evan should have just told the OP “you are wrong, because statistically, you are guaranteed to find a woman in her 30s who wants to marry you”? What good are “facts” if they don’t apply to your life? The OP was not having luck with younger women, so thats HIS reality. He can sit back and wait for a younger woman to drop in his lap or he could change his outlook on women his own age. If his only goal is to have children, well, he should have thought of that when HE was 32. You can’t just count on statistics and say “I deserve a younger woman cuz all these other guys got one”.
Same goes for me. I’m 31 and am totally open to these older guys who want children. But wanna know how many 35+ guys have shown interest in me in the past year? zero. How many guys *younger* than me have asked me out in the same period? Oh, at least a dozen.
So I’m not saying these scientists are wrong, I’m just saying these ‘facts’ don’t help my dating life whatsoever.
Karl R 131

Zaq, (#129)
While you could explain the difference by men in their 40s dating women in their 30s, that seems unlikely given the magnitude of the discrepancy. The range is 40 to 69, and 84% of the women are dating men less than 4 years older than them … which means almost all those men would be in the same range.

Want an alternate explanation? People (of both sexes) are lying about their age. For example, John and Jane are dating each other. Both take the survey. John tells the researchers that he’s 50 and his girlfriend is 40, so he’s put in the category of men dating women 10 years younger. Jane tells the researchers that she’s 45 and her boyfriend is 45, so she’s put in the category of women dating men the same age. Both of them were honest to the researchers; they just lied to each other.

We know people lie about their ages. Isn’t that a much simpler explanation of why there’s a huge difference between the two sexes?
JerseyGirl 132

I do not think that many people are lying about their ages.
I always try to pay attention to how men talk about older and younger women. This says alot about a man’s overall opinion of women. No younger woman stays young forever.
I never date men that are 40 and their age range is 18-35. I am well within this age range but I recongnize this for what it is. Now if he is 40 and says 25-45. Fine. These things matter in what type of man you end up with and how he views women in general.
Michael 133

@Evan — I must say that Match.com is a dating website, not a source based on statistical research nor is the New York Times.  You asked me “How many women are looking for men 20 years older?” Well, I have looked on Match.com, and found that many of the women did not specify they will not date men 10 or 20 years older. However, some women will specify they will only date men in their 20′s, others will say between 30 and 40 years old. Again, as I said in my previous post “Women do prefer older men based on their maturity.” Why? Because women mature faster than men, and they prefer older men that is on the same maturity level. Get the picture? And one other note: No, you must not make generalization because you do not speak for everyone!

@Karl R. – OkCupid is not a statistical research based website. Apparently, it is more of an opinion thread. True, I did not post statistical figures on how many young women will not marry older men that are 10 or 20 years older. If I did that kind of research, I will have to poll the entire female population throughout the continental United States to obtain an exact figure. Evan’s figures are only based on a small group of people in a general location. If you think I am wrong, than you must be wrong as well.  Younger women that I have come in contact with took an interest in me, and they knew my age which was no big deal, and I am 10 + years older than them. Why? Because women are interested in a man’s personality and level of maturity. A man in his early 20′s are not as mature then a man in his early or mid 30′s or 40′s, because they still have not decided on what they want to do in life; they are just beginning to live and learn the realities of life. But I respect your contructive criticism.  Pleasure communicating with you on this website.

@Selena – May I ask you this question: Do you agree that women mature faster than men? If so, explain why younger women would prefer older men whose maturity level is equal to theirs? Ask any young woman which man is more mature — a 20 year old, or 30 to 40 years old? I can assure you they will say a 30 to 40 years old because women want security, financial stability, responsible, and settled in a home. This is based on facts not opinion.  Yes, women have their preference, and I respect that. But women will not take a chance with a 20 year old that still acts irresponsibly.  Facts show that young couples have a higher divorce rate. Compared to couples with a younger wife and older husband whose age gap ranges 10 + years apart, and their marriages do last much longer. But these statistical figures do change slightly, but remain the same on average.
Evan Marc Katz 134

Clearly, Michael, you want to believe this, so go ahead: write to all of those women who “did not specify they will not date men 10 or 20 years older” on Match.com, make your case to these women how they “should” prefer older men (according to YOUR anecdotal research), and let us know how it goes.

My strong guess is that your response will be incredibly low and that your protestations about the virtues about older men are simply wishful thinking.

Fact is: it doesn’t MATTER if you’re a better bet as a husband at age 47… Most women in their 20′s and 30′s want a peer, not a father figure. Whether you agree or not is immaterial.
Zaq 135

As Christie and others above have pointed out, he shouldn’t be having a problem. I’m saying the statistics show he shouldn’t be having a problem. I am concerned that the problem lies with the distorted reality that is on line dating.
Karl, all of the studies are saying the same thing. The census data referenced by Evan says the same, its just being misinterpreted.
Only 7% of married men are 10 years older than their wife. The temptation is to take the figure of 7% and interpret that to mean that for anyone of any age there is only a 7% chance of marrying someone 10 years younger. WRONG
I am now going to make the 7% a much bigger number.
Those of a nervous disposition look away now. No really, it may be boring!
So for those that are left, my first question is how many 30 year old men do you know who marry women 20 years younger than them.
The answer should be none. If it isn’t, then the authorities may be interested !
Of course, to date significantly younger, you have to be much older.
My guess, to marry 10 or 20 years younger we are looking at men in the 40s and 50s.
Well thats lucky because thats the demographic we are interested in.
But how many of those currently married of all ages were married when they were over 40 ? Not a high proportion me thinks. Lets say 10%, just for arguments sake.
That’s 5.6 mill. But there are 4 mill men who have a wife 10 or years younger, and they have to be in this group – 70% of them
Eh viola ! The only tiny number becomes a very big one !
Ok Im a little out but stanford figures are clearly, and lets face it unsurprisingly dead balls accurate.
I rest my case
Zaq 136

Michael, I have no doubt Evan is right. He is the expert on on line dating. In Evans on line dating book (yes Evan I read it!) He thinks 35 is the magic age.
Women want men with status, and they would like it in a younger package. Well there’s not many of them, and those that are have been snapped up, or are not ready to settle down.
In the non online world women can see that, and they will go for the next best thing – and its not younger men with low status.
I think women are tricked into believing they have far more options in online dating
A-L 137

Thanks, Karl, for all of your research. It’s nice to let someone else do it!

RE: Michael
A 30 year old woman would probably prefer a 40 year old man to a 20 year old man, for the reasons you stated. But she’d probably prefer a 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, or 39 year old before taking that 40 year old, with all other things being equal. Most of these guys in this age range are more commitment-minded, financially stable, responsible, mature, etc. And they have more in common with the woman due to their closer age, and they’re probably in better shape than the 40 year old too. Unless a man is wealthy (and shares his wealth), famous, and/or powerful, it’s unlikely that he’ll marry a woman who is 10+ years younger than him, much less 20+.

RE: Zaq

I agree with you that the OP shouldn’t be having a problem. If he’s looking for women 35-42 (probably more like 35-38) he’s only 4-7 years older than the woman. According to Karl’s statistics, more than a fourth of marriages have that age range. So there’s bound to be people interested in him. The fact that they’re not means he’s doing something seriously wrong. But as far as the rest of your commentary, I think Karl has the right end of it.
Karl R 138

Zaq said: (#135)
“to date significantly younger, you have to be much older.
My guess, to marry 10 or 20 years younger we are looking at men in the 40s and 50s.”

And they suddenly stop dating younger when they hit 60?
http://assets.aarp.org/rgcenter/general/singles_1.pdf

Look at the data. Over 50% of the men are dating 5 or more years younger. Less than 20% of the women are dating 5 or more years older. That means approximately 60% of the men who are dating younger would have to be weighted into the youngest end of the range (and it’s a 30 year age range). In order to explain the discrepancy, the women have to suddenly stop dating older when they hit 40, and the men have to suddenly stop dating younger as they hit the 55-60 range.

As the AARP study said:
“Most midlife and older men want to date younger women.”

In order for the study to be accurate, only the middle aged men could be dating younger in significant numbers. The older men would have to be dating close to their own age.

Ockham’s Razor:
“The popular interpretation of this principle is that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. However, this is often confused, as the ‘simple’ “is really referring to the theory with the fewest new assumptions.”
Common Corollary:
“The simplest explanation is probably the correct one … unless the simplest explanation violates human nature.”

My explanation (see #131, people lie about their age) is the simplest one, it follows human nature, and it fits the known facts.

Zaq’s explanation requires men to date younger (in significant numbers) in their 40s and 50s, but stop dating younger in their 60s. It fits the known facts, but it requires more assumptions and violates human nature.

If you are in your 40s and 50s and you can regularly date women 10-20 years younger than you, it doesn’t matter what the statistics say. Go ahead and do what works for you.

However, the data suggests to me that a lot of men get to date that young because the men lied about their age … and they’re actually getting women who lied about their age, instead of women who are that young.

Michael said: (#117 & #133)
“women do prefer older men based on their maturity,”

Rita Rudner (comedienne) quote:
“Well, the old theory was ‘Marry a older man because they’re more mature’. But the new theory is ‘Men don’t mature — marry a young one’.”

Michael,
You might want to find out what women think of your notion before you count on it working in your favor.
Joe 139

Well, you know there are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
BeenThereDoneThat 140

Just my thought: an older guy who wants to date someone 20 years younger isn’t that mature; in fact, he seems fairly shallow.

I’ve never found age to reliably show stability or maturity.
Cat 141

I’ve met quite a few of those older men who married much younger women… and then were dumped by them after five or ten years. Now they’re divorced, back on the dating scene, even older, typically childless (just because she’s younger doesn’t mean she can or will have your kids!) And these guys are still chasing what they couldn’t hold on to before…

Oh, and they’re usually far poorer because they either put the much younger woman through college or fixed her teeth, etc… Now they’re paying her alimony while she starts her new life in her early 30′s.

Just my anecdotal two cents You can pursue someone much younger. You might even catch them. But how long will you keep them?
Zaq 142

Look Karl forget the AARP study – frankly, I don’t know why you feel the need to try to pull apart studies done by professional statisticians.
The Stanford study was undertaken by demographic specialists using, one assumes data from marriage records.
Lying ? Yeah right

Another thing, unlike some around here , the two young women involved didn’t have an axe to grind. They had no idea why older men were succesful with younger women, and reported as much.
But facts are facts.
Karl R 143

Zaq said: (#142)
“The Stanford study was undertaken by demographic specialists using, one assumes data from marriage records.”

What’s the name of the Stanford study? (Better yet, post the URL.) If it proves your point, I’d love to look at it.

Zaq said: (#142)
“I don’t know why you feel the need to try to pull apart studies done by professional statisticians.”
Joe said: (#139)
“Well, you know there are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”

That’s a little over-simplified, but you get the general idea.

More to the point, the surveys and statistics are usually representative of the truth, but the conclusions that people draw out of them are gross misrepresentations of the information provided.
Selena 144

@Michael #113

I agree that females may mature earlier than males – in puberty and adolescence. In adulthood, it is more a matter of individuals and the assessment on the part of other individuals. What you may deem immaturity, a 20-something may not. And vice versa.

Personally I’ve found “immature” individuals in every decade of life.
Michael 145

Yes, Zag, Evan is a dating expert, but he is basing his studies on his own observations in the online dating field.  Karl gives me data which is helpful to a certain extent, but if we all look at the numbers carefully. We will find those younger women married to older men that are 10 + years apart, excluding those that are just living together. Of course the age disparity will be smaller, but I am not going to sit in front of my computer and throw numbers around with other people because everyone has their own opinion, and I respect that.

Evan believes that I do not stand a chance in dating a younger woman that is 10 + years younger than me. Secondly, unlike some men, I never said that I am deserving of a younger woman or that I am a better choice for a younger woman. That is ridiculous for me to think that way, and I do not expect it!

Rita said “I might want to find out what women think about my notion before being counted on in my working favor.” Rita, I do not have to ask what women are thinking. It is offensive to tell a man he is too old to date or marry a younger woman and vise versa. It is fair to say that women have their preference in who they want to date regardless of age.  If there is a chemistery working well between two people — more power to them!

Having said that. I hope Evan, and all you good people on this website will eventually come to some kind of consensus on this issue of dating, and stop being one sided.   Other than that, I am not interested in arguing over something ridiculous because it is not worth my time.

Evan, you are entitled to your own opinion, and I respect that. So, I would appreciate that you respect my opinion, and the same goes for everyone else on this website. Thank you for allowing me to express my opinion on your website.  This concludes this discussion!
Selena 146

“This concludes this discussion!”

It’s that kind of paternalistic attitude that turns younger women off older men. They already have a dad.
Karl R 147

Zaq, (#142)
I’m pretty certain I found the abstract to the Stanford University research you keep referring to.

From the abstract:
“Using data on marriages collected in most US states between 1970 and 1988,”
http://econpapers.repec.org/article/blapopdev/v_3a35_3ay_3a2009_3ai_3a4_3ap_3a797-816.htm

Therefore, those numbers you have been using were accurate 22 to 40 years ago. The study might not accurately reflect the current trends in marriages.
Selena 148

Not to mention the economic status of women may have changed quite a bit in those 22 to 40 years.
C. 149

#140 and #146
Exactly!!!! Brava!!!
Michael 150

@Selena — “Paternalistic,” great word! But I am not old-fashion, and you took my comment “This concludes this discussion,” out of contexts, and I was not directing it at women. When I say “This concludes this discussion,” it means I am finish debating on what I have say on the issue of dating. If you feel turned-off by it. I am sorry you feel that way. The fact is I am a man with a big heart, and I have helped alot people I know, and I am a generous person, and I enjoy sharing my passions with people. If you want to know something about me — ask, and do not pass judgement. The reason why you and everyone listens to Evan, because many of you are intimediated with the fact that he is an expert. There are many experts in this world that claim their findings are correct, but that does not mean their claims cannot be disputed. So, the question to you is do all Scientists agree with one another on every scientific issue? I do not think so. The reason why Evan has a problem with my comments, because he believes that he is always correct and everyone else is wrong, but I respect his opinion.

Selena, as you are aware. Some younger women are so narrow minded in believing that older men in their 40′s are too old, old-fashion, have no energy to keep up with their younger counterparts, and not up-to-date on current events is totally false! I am in my early 40′s, and I can run circles around those younger then me, because I take care of my health — mentally and physically. True, I may not be able to do certain physical activities, but that does not mean I should give up on things I enjoy the most in life. Oh, and one more thing, I do not sit around at home!
Cat 151

#150, Michael, “he believes that he is always correct and everyone else is wrong”–I think you’re actually talking about yourself instead of Evan. In my experience, when Evan’s wrong, he’s the first to admit it. I’d like him to be wrong more often so I wouldn’t have to change anything about me or the way I date! That’s why people get upset with him. Change–and admitting the need to–is tough!
Zaq 152

“Yes, Zag, Evan is a dating expert, but he is basing his studies on his own observations in the online dating field.” – Michael

That is quite correct, and yes thats why Evan’s advice mainly relates to online dating. As you and I know, it is not representative of what happens in the real world.

As I said before, my my own experience led me to believe that the 5% figure was not true. On line dating does not work well for men. The dating sites do not want people to be matched, they want people to remain members for years on end. I wait for the day they advertise ” We guarantee you will meet someone in the next 6 months – OR YOUR MONEY BACK”
Online, men have little opportunity to show how awesome they are. Join social groups where the women are forced to interact with you, and watch their 100 point checklist drop to the floor.
However, there will not be many SINGLE women.
Ojh and another statistic. 50% of women over 60 are not married, but only 1 in 6 men. No its not down to longevity. Yes Karl, men over 60 do marry younger women !
Selena 153

@Michael #150

But you weren’t finished debating were you?

And I’m not intimidated by fact Evan is an expert – if my posts on his blog the last 3 yrs. are anything to go by.

The way you emphatically tried to stop any further discussion bemused me because I could see how an older man might use that technique to “get his way” with a younger partner. “What I say goes Brandi, no further discussion about it is necessary!” And illustrates Evan’s point that younger women want a peer, not a father figure.

I never suggested you sit around at home – where did you get that?

I’m sure you have plenty of positive things to offer in the way of being a partner Michael, so why the insistance that older men (meaning you)
are a better match for younger women? Are you perhaps intimidated by your female peers? ‘Cause I’ll tell you, I’m in my 40′s and that “This concludes this discussion!” would never fly with me. Dad.
Karl R 154

Michael said: (#150)
“The reason why you and everyone listens to Evan, because many of you are intimediated with the fact that he is an expert.”

A lot of the regulars on this blog (including Selena and me) have openly disagreed with Evan before. We do that when we believe he’s wrong. Similarly, if we disagree with you, it’s because we think you’re wrong.

Michael said: (#150)
“Some younger women are so narrow minded in believing that older men in their 40′s are too old, old-fashion, have no energy to keep up with their younger counterparts, and not up-to-date on current events is totally false!”

You’re right. So what?

Instead of complaining that the situation isn’t fair, why don’t you find a woman in her mid-to-late forties who takes care of herself mentally and physically, who keeps up-to-date with current events, and who can run circles around you? (Unless you run marathons, do iron man competitions or do P-90X, I know several women who meet those criteria.)
starthrower68 155

I think, at least I hope, we all intelligent enough to know that we tend to speak in generalities here anyway because we can’t possibility speak to and anticipate every single individual situation. There are immature older men and immature younger men. Conversely there are mature older and younger men. The same is true of women. And I would submit that once two people find the partner they believe is the one and they care about the health and quality of that relationship, they will grow as they need to and allow the same of the other person as they need to to keep the relationship in tact. So really, what is being argued is all academic anyway.
Evan Marc Katz 156

@Zaq. I am a dating coach who works primarily with smart, strong, successful women. My advice, if you look around the 500 posts on this blog do not relate “mainly” to online dating. I refer to online dating as a means to create opportunity when “real life” doesn’t present enough dates, which, for 95% of my readers, it does not.

Online dating DOES work well for men, if only you know what you’re doing. The problem is that you complain and complain about how unfair it is without doing anything differently. I suggest you pick up a copy of Finding the One Online and tell me if online dating STILL doesn’t work for you afterwards. I, too, have a money-back guarantee.

http://www.evanmarckatz.com/products/finding-the-one-online2.html
C. 157

Zaq, you never answered my question. If the statistics don’t match my reality, your reality, or the OPs reality, than what do the statistics matter?
If your point is that statistically older men go well with much younger women (your claim), and you are frustrated that this hasn’t happened to you yet, well, you can either take Evan’s advice and change your outlook on women closer to your age..or you can ignore the advice and keep waiting for that hot 29 year old. But you may be waiting forever.
Karl R 158

Zaq said: (#152)
“Ojh and another statistic. 50% of women over 60 are not married, but only 1 in 6 men. No its not down to longevity.”

Are you pulling these numbers out of thin air, or do you actually have a source?

US Census, click the link for Table 3
http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/marr-div/2004detailed_tables.html

26% of the men 60 and up are unmarried. That’s 1 in 4.
53% of the women 60 and up are unmarried.
Of those women, 36% have been widowed and are not remarried. That’s longevity.

I just ran some quick calculations. If the men in the 70+ category are married (on average) 2 years, 9 1/2 months younger, that correlates with the number of unmarried women in the 70+ age category. If I also assume that the men in the 60-69 age category are married (on average) 3 1/2 years younger, that correlates with the number of unmarried women in the 60-69 age category.

Caveat: this is based on census data from 2004, so it’s several years out of date.
Karl R 159

Oops. Found a couple math errors in my statistics.

36% of the total population of women who are 60+ were widowed and remained unmarried. That’s 78% of the unmarried women.

And my average age for marrying down in the 70+ category is a little off. Since it’s an open-ended category (and heavily influenced by longevity), I can’t nail down an equivalence in years. It’s less than 5 years, but I can’t nail it down better than that without more granulated data.
Selena 160

@#158

But far less out of date compared to data collected 1970 -1988.
C. 161

“Caveat: this is based on census data from 2004, so it’s several years out of date.”
I’d be willing to bet that there are even less couples today where the man is 10+ years older, since women have gained more equality and don’t need to rely on “daddy” type husbands.
Michael 162

@Selena — I never said I wanted to be a younger woman’s father figure nor did I say older men are a better match for younger women. You also say that I am intimedated by peers which is false. What gave you that inclination?

@Karl — I will pick and choose any woman I am interested in regardless of age. You sir, are being ridiculous by making personal attacks instead of attacking the issues that are being discuss on this website. Secondly, I am not complaining. Your problem is that you are not an independent thinker, and Evan is doing all the thinking for you and everyone on this website. I also have every right to challenge Evan’s observations on the issue of dating, and he does not have all the answers nor does he speak for everybody. It is wrong when people like Evan make generalizations about others in society. As I said in my previous posts, that I respect Evan’s opinion. And yes, Karl, we all have the right to disagree.
Selena 163

Michael,
You didn’t say that older men are a match for younger women? Perhaps you should go back read post #117.
Karl R 164

Michael said: (#162)
“I will pick and choose any woman I am interested in regardless of age.”
Michael said: (#150)
“Some younger women are so narrow minded in believing that older men in their 40′s are too old, old-fashion, have no energy to keep up with their younger counterparts, and not up-to-date on current events is totally false!”

You can choose “any woman” you are interested in regardless of age, BUT some of the younger women aren’t interested in being chosen by you because they’re “so narrow minded”.

It may just be my opinion, but I would say that you can’t pick and choose a woman who isn’t interested in you. And if there are a significant number of younger women who aren’t interested in you (for any reason, justified or not), then you may have more success in picking and choosing from the women your age and older.

Michael said: (#162)
“It is wrong when people like Evan make generalizations about others in society.”
Generalizations made by Michael about society:
“Older men are not likely to cheat, leave the wife at home alone, while he hangs out with his buddies, and play video games, etc.”
“older men are committed in having a lifelong relationship.”
“women mature faster than men, and they prefer older men that is on the same maturity level.”
“A man in his early 20′s are not as mature then a man in his early or mid 30′s or 40′s, because they still have not decided on what they want to do in life; they are just beginning to live and learn the realities of life.”

Why is it acceptable for you to make sweeping generalizations if it’s wrong for everyone else to?

Regarding personal attacks:
You said, “many of you are intimediated” about the regular readers.
You said, “Evan has a problem with my comments, because he believes that he is always correct and everyone else is wrong,”
You said, “You sir, are being ridiculous” about me.
You said, “Your problem is that you are not an independent thinker,” about me.
You said, “Evan is doing all the thinking for you and everyone on this website.”

You have dished out personal attacks against Evan, Selena, me, young women in general and every reader on this website. If you want us to respect you, start by treating us with respect.
Selena 165

Karl, you got me dyin’ laughing here. Thanks.
Michael 166

@Karl and Selena — Karl you said you want respect? Are you seriously intererted in a civil conversation? Than let us stop feuding and make an effort to understand each others’ point of view. Yes, I have made some personal attacks, and I have dished out some personal attacks from you and Selena, and I do apologize, and I mean it! Selena, you can continue to laugh all you want, but I am not affected by it. You said your not done debating the issue of dating in your previous post and I do not understand why you wish continue. But I will tell you why I do not wish to continue this debate, because we are getting no where in resolving our differences. If you, like Karl, want me to respect you, please do the same in return.

Having said that, I hope you both understand who I am as a person and where I stand on the issues of dating. Do I want to be your friend? Yes! But friendship has its ups and downs, and it is a relationship that is earn through respecting each other and I am confident that you both will agree with me on this matter. Again, I do apologize, and I appreciate you both for understanding!
Sayanta 167

Karl, that was amazing- I’m dyin’ laughing with Selena.

Michael, WHY are you so set against women your own age?
Michael 168

@Sayanta — I never said that I am against women my own age. Did you read any of my posts? Allow me to explain, if two people are in love and want to spend the rest of their lives together. Should age know no bounds? No, I am not saying a man should have a relationship with a teenage girl. I am talking about a woman. My late Grandfather was 17 years older then my late Grandmother when they married sometime in the early 1920′s, and both had 8 children together. So, why you are laughing after I have apologized to Karl and Selena? You are not helping the situation.
Selena 169

Michael go back and read my post #120. I told you for several years I had a partner who was 15 yrs. my senior. At the time we met he was 52 and I was 37. We found we related well to each other and I think it was mainly because we were in similar stages of life – I had a son when I was 22, he had his first child when he was 40. As I got to know him, the age difference didn’t matter to me, but I was also in early middle age myself. I can tell you I would not have felt the same way if I met him when I was in my 20′s and early 30′s – I would have felt 15 yrs. was too great a gap. Now, I also feel that 15 yrs. is a a big gap because someone 15 yrs. my senior is in a different stage of life than I am at this time. I could ofcourse feel differently if I got to know someone that age as I did before, but I would prefer a partner closer to my own age – say within 7 yrs. either direction. One of the reasons for this is the likeliness of widowhood.

This is what Evan, Karl, I, as well as the majority of women who have wrote on this blog have been trying to tell you: you can come up with all the reasons you want why younger women should prefer older men, but that does not change the fact that most women, of any age, prefer for partners men who are closer to their own age, at least within a decade.

If you want a partner, someone who “gets” you, you will likely be more successful if you keep that in mind. Start writing/striking up conversations with single women within a decade of your own age both older and younger and see what happens. If you prefer women much younger than yourself, first of all be honest with yourself about why that’s so; and secondly accept that you might never actually get one and be comfortable with that.
A-L 170

Michael,

You say that people are allowed to have differing opinions. So, short of changing their views on this subject, what would you need to see to consider commenters like Karl and Selena respectful? In my opinion they’re continuing to make their points and refuse to capitulate to your world view. I fail to see how they’re being disrespectful though.
Karl R 171

Michael said: (#166)
“Karl you said you want respect?”

No, I did not say that.

Two times you have claimed to respect Evan’s opinion, but in the same breath you put words in his mouth and insulted him. If that’s the way you treat people you respect, I want no part of it.

I’ll settle for the bare minimum of civility needed for a debate:
Don’t insult people.
Don’t insult people’s intelligence.
Don’t presume to know what other people think or feel.
Don’t misquote other people.

Michael said: (#166)
“Having said that, I hope you both understand who I am as a person and where I stand on the issues of dating.”

I have no idea who you are as a person, and very little idea of where you stand on the issues of dating.

Michael said: (#168)
“Allow me to explain, if two people are in love and want to spend the rest of their lives together. Should age know no bounds?”

Is this an example of where you stand on the issues of dating?

If two adults want a relationship, regardless of the age difference, that’s fine with me (and with most of the other people on this blog). However, this line of discussion arose from one man asking why younger women (in their 30s) didn’t want to date him (in his 40s).

I used to be in an exclusive relationship with a woman 11 years younger than me. I’m currently in a serious relationship with a woman 16 years older than me. I could have been in a relationship with a woman 21 years younger than me, except I’m not interested in dating someone who is that young. People of different ages date; all of us are aware of that.

But you have called younger women (in their 30s) “narrow minded” when they did not want to date men in their 40s. Are you (as a man in his 40s) interested in dating women in their 50s?

If you have dated women who were 10+ years older than you, you probably are more open minded than men and women who won’t. If you haven’t dated women who were 10+ years older than you, I can’t see how you’re any more open minded than the other men and women who refuse to date people that much older than them.

Michael said to Sayanta: (#168)
“So, why you are laughing after I have apologized to Karl and Selena?”

She was laughing because I was funny.
Karl R 172

Selena said: (#169)
“I would prefer a partner closer to my own age – say within 7 yrs. either direction. One of the reasons for this is the likeliness of widowhood.”

I’m curious about your outlook on widowhood. I can understand why you think about it. Since my girlfriend is 16 years older than me (and I tend to take the long view), I’ve thought about it a bit too.

The way I see it, if we get married (which seems highly likely), there are three possible outcomes: I can end up as a divorcee, a widower or a corpse. All three of those options suck. If I marry someone who is my age, I face the same three outcomes. The only thing that changes is the probability of one happening over the other.

You always think things through carefully. What are you seeing differently?
Helen 173

Karl R, the probability of anyone ending up as a corpse is 100%. What you probably mean is, which of these 3 outcomes is most likely to happen first?

My colleagues who do research at the junction of geriatric care and behavioral economics agree that people want to END on a happy note, as much as possible. They would rather have many of the years preceding their death be mediocre and then maybe a last year of bliss, than many years of bliss followed by a last year of sadness and despair. To that end, they have found that many people state a preference for dying before their spouse, so that they can be with someone (their loved one) and not alone at the end of their lives.
Selena 174

No, I see it the same way you do Karl. That’s why I wrote I could feel differently if I got to know someone much older as I did before (and as you did) - you love who you love. I would prefer a 7 yr. age difference simply because the odds are a bit better I would spend less yrs as a widow than if I chose (again) someone 15 yrs. older than me. Preference is just that, it’s not an absolute.

I could say I prefer a partner who looked like Johnny Depp, but the odds are I won’t find one, so I try to keep my preferences more realistic. I fancy that I would be more comfortable with a working man in his 40′s or 50′s than I would be with a retired man in his 60′s who spent his days on the golf course when he wasn’t insistent on going with me to the grocery store for something to do.

But it’s difficult enough to find someone you really connect with, so if you find that – with someone of any age – you are fortunate. And there is never any guarantee how long a relationship will last, no matter what your age.
Goldie 175

Re: Adrienne’s comment #114 re:Meetup.com. Ahhh, BTDT. I joined a meetup group last year, and another one recently, both related to my hobbies/interests. Went out a few times with a guy from group #1, things went bad and I had to break it off – this was two months ago and I haven’t shown my face in group #1 since, and probably won’t until at least next year. I just think it will be an incredibly awkward situation if he and I both show up at a meetup. This is a real bummer, because I had a great time being in the group, made a few friends, and miss being there. So, when a guy from group #2 asked me out, I said no – I don’t want to lose this second group, too!

Not to mention that, once you’ve dated one person in a meetup group, the way I see it, all other men in that same group are off – otherwise you’ll look very strange, going through your teammates one at a time.

Bottom line, not sure how to make meetup.com work as a dating resource. Same with RL friends. I have a lot of male friends, quite a few of them single, but I’m afraid of getting involved with them for fear of losing a friend or a whole group of friends. Again, bummer, because they’re great guys. If anyone has any positive experience, feel free to share, though it would probably be OT on this thread.
Goldie 176

Typo in prev comment – “all other men in that same group are off-limits to you”, not “off” – got distracted mid-sentence – adult ADD, gotta love it
Karl R 177

Helen said: (#173)
“people want to END on a happy note, as much as possible. They would rather have many of the years preceding their death be mediocre and then maybe a last year of bliss,”

I don’t study geriatrics, but my impression of the aging process is a bit different:
You spend years getting old, which has its share of annoyances.
You spend about a year dying, which sucks for you and your spouse.
You’re dead, and your spouse spends a year or two grieving, which sucks for them.

The year of bliss doesn’t magically happen, especially near the end. Grab the bliss while you can.

If there’s an afterlife you may be able to pick up some additional bliss as a denouement, but that’s independent of this decision.

Helen said: (#173)
“many people state a preference for dying before their spouse, so that they can be with someone (their loved one) and not alone at the end of their lives.”

That part seems obvious and understandable … and also selfish. If you’re dead, then your spouse is the one with the loneliness, sadness and despair. By marrying someone who is younger, you’re just shifting the probability of which person get the worst part.

I suppose you can get lucky and die simultaneously. My grandparents died three hours apart … as victims of a double homicide. Since I can non-facetiously consider them “lucky” to be victims of a homicide, that reinforces my view that the end is lousy for everyone. The lousy part is so unavoidable that efforts to get around it seem ludicrous.

Helen said: (#173)
“which of these 3 outcomes is most likely to happen first?”
“They would rather have many of the years preceding their death be mediocre”

In terms of behavioral economics, this seems like the worst decision possible. If I choose the years of mediocrity, I boost the probability of becoming a divorcee (which is high probability for most couples from the start). Not only do I get years of mediocrity, but I still end up alone at the end of it.

To me, divorce seems like the most avoidable (and most unnecessary) outcome. Therefore, it’s the one I should focus on avoiding.

Selena said: (#174)
“No, I see it the same way you do Karl.”
“it’s difficult enough to find someone you really connect with, so if you find that – with someone of any age – you are fortunate.”

True. I wasn’t trying to date 16 years older.

Helen’s information is interesting, but it mostly reinforces my opinion that the average person doesn’t think things through. I know you think things through, so if we had differed greatly in opinion, it would mean I’d overlooked something. (Helen, you also think things through. Feel free to chime in with your personal opinion as well.)

Selena said: (#174)
“I would prefer a 7 yr. age difference simply because the odds are a bit better I would spend less yrs as a widow than if I chose (again) someone 15 yrs. older than me.”

True. I did consider the possibility that we’d have a different perspective as a man/woman. My girlfriend’s father and uncle are remarried widowers. Because women outnumber men 3:1 in the 70+ age range, men have an easier time finding someone after the death of a spouse.

I don’t see being a widower as a “for the rest of my life” kind of situation. There will be some bad years if she dies before me, but I’ve been through bad years before. I’ll survive.
Selena 178

I’d also like to add that I live/ have lived in towns with large over-65 populations and widow/widowhood is not necessarily the horrible, lonely state younger people imagine it to be. I believe it’s important at any age to have friends, interests, activities and to be comfortable with yourself – for you could find yourself single at any time.

My age preference is in part because if I do find another partner, it’s a little later in life and I’d like to hope for more than a few years with him after it taking so long for us find each other. The marriage that lasts 40-50 years is very unlikely for me at this point.
Karl R 179

Goldie said: (#175 & 176)
“once you’ve dated one person in a meetup group, the way I see it, all other men in that same group are off – otherwise you’ll look very strange, going through your teammates one at a time.”

I’ve never been in a meetup group, but I can’t see that it would be much different from the dance community. In the last two years I dated six different women in the dance community, including my current girlfriend (she’s friends with one of them, has met a couple others, and would recognize the rest on sight). At least two of those ladies have dated around as much as I have.

A lot of it depends on the size of the group, and how rapidly you date them. It’s one thing to date six people out of 200. It’s another if it’s six out of 20. The guys who have hit on every available woman in the group (which is possible even in a group of 200) and hit on every new woman when they walk in the door … they get a poor reputation. I might have asked another woman out every 2 to 4 months, and I was clearly selective about it. It never hurt my reputation.

One guideline that’s very important: don’t badmouth your ex-dates inside of the group. Unless his behavior is criminal or dangerous, other people don’t need to know.

Goldie said: (#175)
“things went bad and I had to break it off [...] I just think it will be an incredibly awkward situation if he and I both show up at a meetup.”

If it’s a bad breakup, it can be. If you just date a few times, things don’t work out, and everybody is mature about it, the only awkwardness is in your mind.

Last Friday my girlfriend went to a dance party. Two women who I’d previously dated were there. I danced with them, just as I had many times before. One of them is having a birthday soon. Her boyfriend has invited my girlfriend and I to the party.

It’s possible to have very positive experiences.
Helen 180

Karl R, thanks for the compliment. Here are my blunt thoughts on the topic of age difference, widowhood, and intertemporal choice (the behavioral economics term for preferring a “happy ending”):

Love is rarely purely unselfish. Yes, it is selfish to hope you’ll die before your spouse so that you don’t have to suffer your last years alone, but that is just the nature of the beast, so I don’t criticize the elderly subjects of these studies for feeling this way.

Your comment about how mediocre years before a happy ending can lead to divorce presupposes that the relationship is mediocre. I don’t mean to downplay marriage (because indeed, it’s wonderful), but once you get married, you realize that MANY other things, not just the marriage, can make life mediocre or happy or unhappy. Other important players are health, jobs, money, children, other family, friends, and recreational activities.

I would suspect that most people don’t marry with much consideration of who will die first. We tend to think far more about life than death.

Selena makes the good point that what matters more than an absolute number, as far as age difference, is that two people are in roughly the same stage of life. If you plan to keep working, you might not want to marry someone who just retired, and vice versa; even if that person is the same age as you. On the other hand, if you both have stable jobs and are looking to start a family, it might not matter if your age gap is 20 years.

For what it’s worth, Dan Savage has a numerical formula for May-December relationships that states, among other things, that the age of the younger person should not be less than 1/2 the older person’s age plus 7. By this rule, if you’re 60, the lower age limit of a person with whom you could form a “healthy” relationship would be 37. Not sure how he formulated this rule…
Joe 181

The half-plus-seven years rule-of-thumb is old school, and I’m certain it predates Dan Savage.
Selena 182

I don’t understand the 1/2 plus 7 rule. How many 37 yr. olds, male or female are interested in a 60 yr. old partner?
Joe 183

It only works for lower age ranges, say 40 and below.
Helen 184

Actually, that age gap applies to our friends. They got married when he was 28 and she was 51 (yes, indeed!). According to that rule, it wouldn’t have worked out – but it’s 9 years later and he is 37 and she is 60, and they are still happily together. I will say that she has a delightful, enthusiastic personality and an amazing figure.
Sara Malamud 185

There is no rule and I know many women in their thirties who would date even older. Maybe those ones you are talking about didn’t want to date YOU. Keep trying, you may be surprised. All the best! Sara Malamud
vicki 186

A simple solution for anyone trying to date someone their *own* age is: change the subject line of your classified ad or dating profile to state up front that you seek a SM or a SF under age ___. So, if you don’t want to date someone more than 5 years older than yourself, and you are 35, set that limit at 40. You will probably get emails from men (or women) who are 41 or 42. If that is not acceptable, change the number to 38 that way you’re actually going to receive messages from singles ages 39 and 40 which is more along the lines of what you wanted anyway. Stating a strong age preference simply and up front keeps everyone from wasting their time. Also, I found that I actually received *more* responses from men in the *right* age categories when I stated it up front. I can speculate that men a couple of years younger than I hesitated to contact me because they thought I would reject anyone even a little bit younger (not true, my ideal range has always been within 5 years of my own age, up or down). Once I stated my upper age limit up front, I got massive amounts of responses from men just the right ages for me. Now, I don’t know if this necessarily works the same way for the guys, but for women, I know this works. It is also more straightforward than just saying you want someone “youthful” or “about the same age” since most guys will read this as “she believes you’re as young as you feel” or “she doesn’t really care that much about the age difference thing”. Guys do best with straightforward, direct information, that reads like a technical manual or something. Don’t be vague.

I wrote lots of personal ads, but the only ones that attracted really good dates in the right age range were the ones I wrote with an upper limit age stated clearly in the subject line. I used Craigslist, I use Plentyoffish, I used Match.com and Yahoo personals. I met my boyfriend through a very carefully worded ad on Craigslist, that had my upper limit age preference stated in the subject line. He’s cute, his kids are grown but he’s open to the idea of having another child with me (if it’s not too late – I’m turning 42 this year), and he’s a scant 18 months older than I am. To top it off, we both like science fiction movies, Twilight and Harry Potter. He’s also a well-traveled, multple-degreed paratrooper in the Army, and he’s a great kisser!

JACKPOT!
vicki 187

@ Karl R and @Selena

I hear you on the subject of widowhood. My great uncle who passed away in the early 1980s left a widow who survived him for nearly 20 years. She never stopped grieving. For 20 years, I would see her at family reunions and she would break down on my shoulder in tears describing how much she missed him. I vowed that I would NEVER marry a man who was that much older than I am, or whose family had a history of heart disease or early death from some sort of predictable, inherited condition.

Of course, I’m sure widowhood is great if you hated your husband’s guts. I don’t recommend marrying someone you hate just so your Golden Years without him will be more enjoyable, but I would also be really careful about giving my heart away to someone who will likely die 20 or more years before I will. I’ve seen up close how miserable it is to outlive an *adored* spouse by that many years, and I would try to avoid that outcome at any cost.
Staring Down 40 188

You can’t base love off a potential life span. You never know when the person you love is going to be taken away from you. Sure if you’re with someone a few decades older you have a better idea, but it can happen at any time. The love of my life passed away 2 1/2 years ago at the age of 40 from colon cancer. I know it’s not the norm, but no one saw it coming and I thought we had our entire lives to spend together.

Life throws you curveballs, you can’t plan who you love.

Thank you Evan for shedding light into the dating world of those of us approaching 40. As a woman quickly approaching 40 and back in the dating pool, I won’t say it’s uplifting, but it is nice to get a realistic perspective on the dating scene.