Why Do Women in Their 30s Not Want to Date Men in Their 40s?
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I’m a 42 year old single male who recently left a 5 year relationship for various reasons, but mainly because I wanted kids and she did not. I thought that since I was an attractive, fit, well-educated, financially and emotionally secure guy that I would have no problem finding a woman in her mid 30s to settle down with and start a family. I have tried a combination of online dating, speed dating, professional singles events, volunteering, happy hours etc. and have had very few dates over the past year. I thought that online dating would be great since you are essentially pre-screening people for dates. I have found that I get no responses from any women online and the only women who respond to my ad are usually much older and don’t meet any of my criteria outlined in my profile.
I am told that women want to settle down and have kids, etc., but their actions seem to be to the contrary. At singles events, women come in groups and are reluctant to talk to men. In online situations, women say they want desperately to meet a nice guy like me, but never answer my response to their profile. I am trying to remain positive, but two things are really bothering me. One, that younger women are no longer interested in dating men who are even just slightly (3-5 years) older than them and sometimes want to date men 5-10 years younger then them. Two, women seem to be content in the fact that they are independent and self-sufficient and have a career, family and friends that fulfills them and don’t seem to be interested in truly finding a relationship. I find the latter hard to believe, but find this mantra in every profile of every professional woman online. Any advice on how to navigate these new paradigms in the dating world?
Adam
Dear Adam,
You came to the right place.
And to directly address your email, I have to divide my response into two different parts: 1) What You’re Getting Right and 2) What You’re Missing.
What you’re missing is that what you want has absolutely no relation to what women want.
Let’s start with What You’re Missing. We’ll do What You’re Getting Right next week.
What you’re missing is that what you want has absolutely no relation to what women want. We’ve addressed this before, from an older man who couldn’t possibly fathom why a younger woman wouldn’t want to be with him. This isn’t all that much different. We can complain that the opposite sex is unrealistic and passing up great opportunities – and we’d be right – but it doesn’t change that people want what they want. It’s not fair. It’s not right. It just IS.
From 25-34, men play around a lot. Why? Because they can. They have a lot of dating options, they’re building their careers, and there isn’t a clear urgency to settle down.
Once a guy crosses 35, however, he (theoretically) tends to get more serious.
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611 Comments »Filed Under Online Dating
Rachelle 1
Great advice, Evan. I like the way you broke it down.
I’m a 37 year old woman and have online dated off and on over the years. I’m attractive, fit, have a job, etc. I’ve never been married and do not have any kids. I’m looking for a LTR but with that said I’ m not willing to settle.
I would date a 42 year old, not a problem, but as you say, men in their 40′s are looking for women who are in the 27-34 year old bracket.
I do know when I was in my early 30′s, anyone in their 40′s seemed old to me! Funny how that works out.
It’s been my experience that I seem to get alot of emails from the 50+ and over crowd. To be fair, I’m not looking to date my dad. Sorry!
And like you said, round and round we go….
Mikko Kemppe - Relationship Coach 2
Very interesting, realistic, and thorough analysis Evan!! I don’t seem to find anything to disagree with your posts anymore
…
Carol 3
There is a huge opportunity being missed here by the online dating companies. How about one called ‘guess my age’ or “Age Anonymous” where you don’t disclose your age upfront? That should shake some things up!
Heather 4
When I was 33 I dated a 40 year old. I had no problem with this whatsoever, but at first it seemed like a bit of a novelty. 40 can seem ‘old’ to those of us who are fresh out of our 20′s. It’s an age we can remember out parents being, so it’s a little odd. However, and this may just be me, but I tend to relate best to men who are *slightly* older than me and, at 37, a 42 year old man is rather desirable. Ideally, I’d like to find a guy who is about 2 years older than me, but I’d rather date up a few years than date someone more than 2 years younger. Again, this is just one woman’s perspective.
In this case, however, I think the failure to find dates may be a function of what this 42 year old is looking for. Unless he and Miss Right find each other, sparks fly, and it’s a very sure thing that happens quickly, the whole settling down and starting a family thing might be tricky. I don’t personally believe that courtships need to last that long, and that if they do last several years there’s something wrong. But you have to find the right person to have this happen, and, as we all know, that gets increasingly difficult with age, self-awareness, and a shrinking pool of date material.
As a professional woman in her mid-30′s I’d like to add that a lot of us don’t want children. I think some of us choose to remain single on a subconscious level to avoid this whole subject. It may seem that a lot of us have biological clocks ticking away (which is an assumption I believe the original poster is making) but I don’t think that is the case, especially amongst career girls like myself.
JB 5
There are plenty of women online in their late 30′s who already have kids and don’t want more or maybe would like to have MORE kids that will date men in their early 40′s but of course those 40 something guys have to be “hotter”,”richer”,better job etc than their 30 something counterpart.Does that mean I think a 34 yr.old with no kids that wants some will date a 43 yr.old that wants some? No,they won’t most of the time.But a 37 or 38 woman with a guy 42 or 43 isn’t out of the question or unrealistic.
Michelle 6
I am a 38 year old woman, the challenge is that most men in their 40′s act and seem old. They do not keep up with current events, music or fashion (think goatees and mom jeans). They often seem very very stuck in their ways. So as an attractive 38 year old, I am able to attract young men, and prefer their vibrancy. The older men who do keep up and are a tiny bit metrosexual probably have a easier time of it. Maybe you can do a little to be more attractive to the women you are looking at…. I really want to date men my own age…..
Selena 7
I’m surprised women aged 37 – 42 aren’t interested interested in men in their early 40′s. Is this really a trend? I don’t consider 5 yrs either way an age difference anyway so I don’t get it.
This older men preferring younger women thing though, doesn’t seem to have any end to it. Lately, an 89 yr. old man has developed a crush on me. Not only do I not want to date someone my Dad’s age, I definetly don’t want to date someone 20 years older than my Dad!
I get the idea “find the people who want you” , but hey! there’s a limit ya know.
I like your “Guess my age ” suggestion Carol. I think it would shake up some people’s perceptions of older/younger. I also think it could be a bit of an eye opener to those who believe they look much younger than they are. You don’t look 10 years younger than your age to someone who actually IS 10 years younger than you are. Trust me.
sophie 8
I like Carol’s post! That would indeed be interesting! I’m on match and almost always completely ignore the info at the top of the profile. Age, height, have kids/want kids, body type, ethnicity etc.
I just read what people write about themselves and it’s only from reading the chat on Evan’s blog that I’ve come to realise that this isn’t normal! I have regularly dated guys and found myself asking after 5/6 weeks, “how old are you”?, “younger, older than me!?” I don’t take it in, I just go by whether their physical appearance suggests they’re young or old to the extent that it makes me feel uncomfortable.
I don’t get people that have strict age limits; for me ten years older is fine and re younger, so long as they’re out of their teens and seem it, I’m open minded! But then I’m in my twenties; who knows how I’ll feel in 20 years time!?
Shay 9
Hey Adam, sad to say…you’ve had your chance to meet women who are in child bearing age and can have your children when you were in your 20s and early 30s. How come you wanna have kids only in your late 30s?
And frankly, nowadays women are leading a more active lifestyle than men in general. Older men (among even my early 30s guy friends), they tend to wanna be couch potatoes and home-bound. Whereas women still in their 30s wanna go out, do stuff, etc are even financially independent to continue to do so without tying herself down to be a child-bearing machine. So, a guy who is 40-ish…I’d be wondering what he can offer.
A-L 10
I have to disagree here. I don’t think it’s just bad luck. As a 29 year old woman, most of my friends who have done online dating have stated on their profile that they’d be willing to date a guy up to 10 years older than them. I’d venture to say that most women who are at the settling down phase would be willing to go at least 7-8 years above. And I haven’t seen any profile of a woman who isn’t willing to go 3-5 years older than her. So if you’re asking women out who are 3-5 years younger than you (37-39), these are supposed to be the women who are most desperate to find a man because their biological clock is ticking the loudest. They should be overjoyed that a man not old enough to be their father is contacting them and at least send back an e-mail, even if the whole process doesn’t get to the dating phase.
So if this is not happening, your profile or approach must need serious work. Go through the archives or Evan’s various articles he’s written on the ‘net. Or you can buy his program. Or get an honest friend to look over your profile and critique it. But you’d better do something because if you want your own biological children, time’s ticking for you too.
Mara 11
My thought is that it depends on whether the woman in her 30′s has been in long term relationships, or any relationships actually, or has been more of an “always single” girl. If she spent most of her 20′s and early 30′s “single” then I think there is even more resistance to finding a man in their 40′s that she sees as immediately settle down with, have a kid or two, and be an “older” couple. She might still want to catch up a little on the “fun” “couple” life all her friends got to have – that YOUTHFUL couple life of vacations, concerts, sporting events that she spent a lifetime of doing single and wants to catch up on some of those milestone moments with a guy in his 30′s who still seems to live that lifestyle before wanting to “settle down.” A woman who got to experience many of those things as couple, just with the wrong person in the long run, but had fun and enjoyed them at the time, is probably more willing and into settling down and craving more wanting to get married and start a family and a home life.
Sherell 12
This is the problem with online dating. In person you can see and judge how “young ” or “old” someone may be. But on online you just have age cut offs. In person, I am often approached by men 10 -15 years my junior. Online alot less so. When I was in my late 20′s and early 30′s and someone asked if I wanted to date a 42 year old, I would have said eweeeeeeee no way!!!!
When you are young you picture yourself dating someone within 5 years of your age . As you get older the range increases.
Diana 13
I wonder if it’s possible that Adam has never married. I know this is often perceived as a red flag for a 42 year-old guy. It sounds like his initial email and his profile may need revising. Maybe he talks about wanting to start a family in his profile. Many sites encourage you to say what you’re searching for, and while some women in their mid-30′s might have their initial interest peaked by what he has to offer, they’re not sure where they stand on such an issue and so they pass. It’s kind of like the woman who mentions her desire to have children too soon for a guy’s liking and he scatters off.
He is now living in a world “as it is” vs how he perceived it to be when he exited his LTR. Many women of today are interested in dating and claim they want to find a good guy, but in reality, eh … not so much. They are as he has described: successful, career-oriented, independent, active, financially strong, self-empowered, and loving life. They also do not always want children. And some women are choosing to have children, but not in the traditional way.
Paula 14
I would date a successful man that didn’t have children, but I cannot have children. So I would not be someone he would want, I am also not healthy enough to care for an adopted child, so we would have to hire help.
But as in dating guys in their 40′s .. some have so much, when I read “my 6 year old is my life”, I go to the next one because I think, well then you don’t need a woman then do you?
Other than that, I don’t care what age I find. I want to know what’s inside the mind heart & soul.
BTW thank you for the stuff about the young guys… have had them honking at my car, flooding any dating sight, etc etc. I need not another 2 year relationship.
Shay 15
I agree with Diana (#13). Women being scared off by men who disclose their agenda too soon.
In fact, if Adam really disclose that he wants to start a family, the woman he showed interest in might think that he is not really interested in her as a person, merely a convieniant child bearing machine. Then any woman would fit the bill, right?
Joe 16
Buddy, you are just doing something wrong. If you’re good-looking and have a job you should not be having any trouble getting a woman. But maybe you aren’t good-looking or employed in the way that women like. If so you gotta move down the food chain. Like go after the ones that make a lot less than you do or the ones that don’t have minicures or something.
JB 17
@Paula,
If I had a dollar for every woman who put “my children are my life” in their profile I’d be richer than Bill Gates….lol
Just like the women with 4 kids who sometimes write…”I have time for relationship” I just laugh and say sure you do…..next!
Dashing One! 18
These days we constantly hear that age is nothing but a number.
50 is the new 40, 40 is the new 30, and even black is the new white! LOL!
The truth is age does matter! (especially in the long run).
Personally when I was in my 20s I dated women who were 12 years older than me. When I was in my late 30s/early 40s I lived with a woman that was 15 years older than me. All of these women were very attractive for their age but in the long run is where the problem comes in for most people. When you’re 60 and your mate is 40 there are going to be some major differences between you. Energy is one of them along with thoughts of retirement…etc
Having said all of the above there are still lots of old guys dating women in their 20s and 30s while they are 50 and older. However most of thoes women are not just looking for an old man who is “financially secure”. He has to be rich, powerful, or famous. Trust me that is the only reason why someone like Hugh Hefner (almost 80) has a long line of 20 something year old beautiful girls waiting to jump in bed with him.
If you want a girl who is a “gold digger” or looking for a “meal ticket” they are out there but most of them will not be highly educated nor have career interests of their own.
If the age of a woman is real important to you then you would be better off thinking in international terms… (women from Latin America, Europe, Middle East, South America, and Asia). Women from these cultures are beautiful and raised to view age differently than in America. They are much more open to marrying older successful men. You might want to google some international dating websites. Keep in mind there are over 6 Billion people on this planet of ours. There is nothing that says your wife/soul-mate can’t be waiting for you on some tropical island.
Just as business has to think globally to thrive you too should think globally when it comes to finding the woman of your dreams. Thank God for the internet and airplanes! LOL!
Yes there are exceptions in America but you have to look at the odds. I’m certain if you were to sift through every dumpster in New York City you are bound to find a diamond ring or something of value in at least one of them but why would you choose to go down that road just so you could have something locally.
We place value on youth in our culture. Everyone here is trying to look younger than they are, dress younger than they are, keeping track of music and new Hollywood stars. The “Baby Boomers” coined the phrase, “Don’t trust no one over 30!” Today these are the same people who refuse to get “old”. They are standing in line for plastic surgeries, popping Viagra like vitamins, constantly trying to shape up or trin down…etc
In America a man in his 20s and 30s with a good sex drive is seen as sexy. A man in his 40s, 50s, and beyond is considered a “dirty old man” for having the same desires. The thought of older people wanting sex is a turn off until we ourselves fall into that age group. LOL!
BeenThruTheWars 19
It’s not about age as a number so much as it is about life stage discrepancies. Every five years or so, priorities tend to change. I found, while dating again in my early 40s and wanting to date men my age, that they “all” wanted younger women because oops! They forgot to have kids. The men who were interested in me, at 42, were in their late 20s to late 30s and did NOT want kids (neither do I), who were relieved to find a woman who wasn’t all over them to get married and start a family right away, the way the women in their mid-30s tended to be. I was divorced ten years and didn’t care if I ever got married again, and that was like catnip to the younger guys I met who were ambivalent about having kids (almost all of them, frankly). Also, the older men (50+) dug me, because to them I was a “younger woman” who didn’t have any baggage or expectations when it came to wanting kids or more kids. I wound up with a guy eleven years my junior; and while there are a few life stage issues now in terms of where we are in our respective careers, we are wildly happy together because we both eschewed having kids and don’t feel the least bit selfish or regretful about the choices we made.
Heather 20
@Dashing One:
Great … good to know that there are foreigners out there to take away EVERY job from Americans!
JerseyGirl 21
I really don’t see why someone who was 35+ wouldn’t want to date someone who is 42. Man or woman. But, if that’s really the case, then I guess men are now geting a little of their own medicine. I can’t say I have too much sympthy since most men usually don’t really care how this issue affected women.
I did enjoy the post by Dashing One that said that women in other countries are raised to view age differently. The irony in it is he seems to only care about how older men are viewed, not older women. He’s more upset about how older men past 40 are viewed , not women past 40.
It’s not that having a sex drive past 40 is bad. It’s when men want to play around and not grow up until they are 40 and then expect that they deserve a younger woman after they had their play time.
Although, the man that wrote the letter did say he was in a relationship for 5 years. So in that case, it wasn’t that he was playing around.
PortiaOnLine 22
After reading these posts, it is clear men and women are just not on the same timeline!
I had one child in my late twenties during grad school and got divorced four years later. When i got around to dating again I found that men in their 30′s and 40′s were mostly like Adam – they either wanted kids or had kids, along with an ex-wife and a custody schedule. Been there, done that. Not interested.
It wasn’t until I started dating again in my late 40′s that I could find men who affirmatively did not want children, or like mine, their kids had flown the nest. What i find interesting about Adam’s email is that he equates children with a LTR. I think Evan’s analysis is right on about men wanting younger women who aren’t yet ready to settle down – although my biological clock wasn’t ticking anymore, a lot of my (professional) women friends had children in their late 30′s and early 40′s. Perhaps Adam should find the woman first and then figure out the kid issue instead of the other way ’round. Is carrying on his gene pool more important than being alone? Some women come with kids already and there is always adoption. I agree that there is a certain “I’m looking for a breeder” tone that if its in his profile might be a turn-off.
Have I solved the problem? Sort of. Having just turned 50, I have been actively dating for the last four years (using a lot of Evan’s advice, of course) and have dated men 12-15 years on either side of me, but not so many my own age. For the last year I have been seeing a man eight years my senior. His kids are grown up and married. He has his own law practice. He doesn’t know how to use a BlackBerry, but he calls me every day and (Evan will cringe) on dates he brings me flowers, pays, and helps me off with my coat. He understands responsibility and commitment. He is the only guy I’ve dated since my divorce with whom I can see having a future. Would I have dated him ten years ago when I was 40? Probably not.
JerseyGirl 23
Why wouldn’t you have dated him when you were 40 PortiaOnline?
NomDeGuerre 24
@ Heather #20
Isn’t the response in the Outsourcing/Illegal immigration debate always “because they’ll take the jobs Americans are unwilling to do”. In the future, even Americans won’t be “Made in the USA” anymore.
Anette C 25
Am I allowed to be offended by the guy that chooses to “date” and “have some fun” but then expects women so much younger than him, to hook up with him and start breeding once he hits his “I’m now stable” stage? What happened to behaving with a bit of maturity and self-restraint when you are younger? What happened to thinking things through?
It’s letters like this, that make me lose my faith in men. Actually, it makes me lose my faith in people a little bit.
I’ve realized, that at 36, kids may not happen for me. I also realize, that even if I craved them, no man I meet is going to want to be seen as the “father” of my kids before he’s ready or even willing to make that decision. If I want some-one lovely in my life, I have to accept that kids may simply not be on the agenda. If I really wanted to, I could have one on my own. So no pressure on the guys, and just get to know them slowly.
But when I read this stuff from guys, I think, how self-absorbed is he?
Thankfully I know some really great younger men, who have had families young and although they do believe they may have made a mistake in their choice in partner, they are working on it and are absolutely dedicated to their children and their partners lives. Some of my younger male friends, do give me back some of my faith in men and people overall and I hope their marriages prevail.
I probably shouldn’t be, but I’m really disgusted by this guys attitude. He wanted his cake, and wanted to eat it too…and doesn’t spare a thought for the women, who may have wanted children and still do, but are running out of time. You know, those women who were once young enough to have kids, but met men that just couldn’t make that commitment. He wants a breeder who will do things his way. Harsh, but that’s the way I see it.
Shay 26
PortiaOnline (#22) said what I want to say but didn’t know how to put it!!! Hahaha…
Yes. People nowadays have the sequence the other way round. Kids are the testimony of love between a couple. Having kids should not be the ultimate purpose of a relationship. So, the aim should be the find the right person first.
Joe 27
Foreign chicks are cute but you cant talk to them.
Joe 28
Not that I care about that so much-but I mean about anything!
Helen 29
“Foreign chicks are cute but you cant talk to them.” – Joe #27
You know, I’ve wondered about this too. For those of you who have watched “Love Actually,” you’ll recall that the men fell in love either with foreign women who couldn’t speak to them, or women who had such a different career (tea girl vs. prime minister) that you had to wonder what they would ever TALK about if they got into a long-term relationship.
So it is in real life as well… there a LOT of white men falling for foreign women (especially Asians) who don’t speak English very well but are very cute.
Do men just not care about language and other verbal barriers when it comes to finding a mate? I’m not judging one way or the other; I’m just wondering, because it seems so strange, and I’d like to hear others’ perspectives.
IceQueen 30
Men have to move along with the reality that has changed a long time ago now. I think men still follow stereotypes that are no longer valid. And, yes, they sometimes do tend to view things from the perspective of their wishes. The culture conditions them to do so. I think men aim too high when it comes to women’s looks and age. There are simply not enough hot 25 year old women to go around for all the men that desire them. And there won’t be because less girls are being born. And the ones in their 20s and even 30s have choices.
I am 32, good looking (not hot, just cute) and do not wish to be with an older man, quite the opposite, I desire younger men. I had a relationship with a man 13 years my senior when I was 19. But from then on, the men were my age, a couple of years older or younger. The problem was, even the older man did not want to have kids (he had had one already). I had long term relationships but the guys didn’t want to have kids back when I was 23-25. They just wanted the good sex and the hot meal. Just like many guys in their early 30s. I used to think that I’m different than other women because I wasn’t physically attracted to older men (unless they’re Viggo Mortensen who is 50 but unfortunately they’re not). I was raised by a young dad (he was 21 when my parents had me, mom being a bit older). I have always desired virile men in the age group of 19-30. But I also like softer, more tolerant guys, the so called beta males, and it’s the younger ones who tend to be like that because they appreciate independent women. As a woman, I desire a few things that are not traditional, but alas, the reality has long since changed and ppl haven’t come to terms with it. I have my own money (there never was another choice but to work and pay my own bills). So I desire other things – good looks, youthfulness, caring, attentiveness, ‘father’ potential (not a highly paid Sunday dad but someone who will atually raise the kid, Dad with the capital D). His wallet is not my priority. And it is not always the older guy who is more stable and secure. I know a lot of guys in their mid-late 20s that are in committed relationships and have already had kids. And then there are many guys aged 35 who are still “sleeping’, being ultra picky, looking for the bestest of the bestest. I know that they want the hot 23-27 year old (who makes her own money preferably). Well, they set themselves up for loads of competition because those women are desired by thousands of men in the age range between 21-60 (both rich and poor).
It is sad. I wish I was attracted to older guys (some of them are really neat). But I just can’t help it when I see a handsome 25-27 year old, I am simply enchanted!
Also, I dislike the attitude of older guys towards older women or women their own age. Hei, I will be old some day too – they will not get a piece of me for putting down my older sisters!
What is interesting I notice some other women who are actually similar to me.. I thought I was an exception… they claim they like older and ‘smart’ but in the end looks do matter to them and so does the age..
I’m actually considering staying single or having the kid on my own as the extreme choice.. but thankfully there are many good guys out there.
Guys, don’t be sleeping through out your 20s and 30s.. where is your commitment at that age? Sperm quality and men’s fecundity drops too with age… and to the Western guys who think they will import a much younger wife, alright you might, but I come from one of those ‘poor’ countries in Eastern Europe and I do love Western men a lot.. but – not my dad’s age! And not even 10 years older, sorry.
Karl R 31
Annette C said: (#25)
“[Adam] doesn’t spare a thought for the women, who may have wanted children and still do, but are running out of time. You know, those women who were once young enough to have kids, but met men that just couldn’t make that commitment.”
How are these women running out of time? My sister adopted her first at 41, and is getting close to adopting another at 44.
Why are people so insistent upon raising children who share their genetic code? (Or their skin color, for those who choose adoption.) Why don’t they spare a thought to the children (particularly black children) who need loving parents?
I guess they’re just more interested in breeding and being parents their way.
You have put your desire for children who are your own flesh and blood above the needs of tens of thousands of children in foster care who need adoptive parents. Why are you condemning Adam for putting his desires over those of you and your friends?
Selena 32
Re: #31
Wonder if Adam would consider adoption, either as part of a couple, or as a single man? Hmm.
downtowngal 33
Either Adam should be more open to dating women closer to is age, or he’s chosing to pursue the wrong women. Because many women in their early 30′s are indeed looking to settle down with the right guy.
Also, Evan, one point you brought up..” Because 35-40-year-old men who are ready to settle down still want to have time before becoming dads.”
Truth is, most married couples I know of have had kids within a year or two of marriage – even the ones who marry into their late 30/40′s (exception being one partner in school/transition, second marriage). So the idea that a guy wants to enjoy coupledom for a few years BEFORE having kids tells me he either has unrealistic expectations or isn’t really ready for a commitment. Besides, what happens if his girlfriend/wife unexpectedly gets pregnant soon after marriage?
And lastly, many women have childern into their 40′s one way or another. So a guy over 40 who pursues women younger than 35 because of their child-bearing abilities is really a smokescreen for immaturity and comittmentphobia.
NomDeGuerre 34
downtowngal-
And lastly, many women have childern into their 40′s one way or another. So a guy over 40 who pursues women younger than 35 because of their child-bearing abilities is really a smokescreen for immaturity and comittmentphobia.
Fertility rates for women start to dip after 30, accelerate after 35, & drop off a cliff after 40. Every medical study on the subject has confirmed this.
Here’s a tidy summary for you;
Pregnancy over 40 and Related Risks
There is a sharp decline in a woman’s ability to achieve pregnancy over age forty. The fertility rate per month is only about 5% and even with in Vitro Fertilization (IVF), the most successful infertility treatment available, the pregnancy rate is only about 10% per try. This is due to the greatly reduced number of normal eggs remaining in the ovaries of a woman over forty. Therefore, women who desire a pregnancy over 40 should seek help after only 3 months of trying to become pregnant. Estimates from embryo biopsy reveal that at least 90% of a woman’s eggs are genetically abnormal when a woman is over 40. This is explains the increased pregnancy risk over 40. The miscarriage rate is 33% at age 40.
You’re the one who is using this debate as a smokescreen downtowngal.
downtowngal 35
NDG#34, thank you for your clinical summary. I’m not using anyting as a smokescreen, just stating facts. Fact is, there have been many advancements in fertility treatments. Fact is, guys who refuse to date older women (and i’m not saying OP is doing this) are making assumptions for a potential dating partner without understanding the full picture.
I have a friend in her mid-30′s who’s been married for 10 years. She and her husband have been trying to have a family during that time but have had difficulty. I also know of women in their 20′s who have gynacological issues preventing then from aving children….not something you’d want to post on your online profile.
bottom line: you fall in love and marry the person. age based on fertility, even if well-intented, eliminates a potential pool of compatable dating partners.
Selena 36
Re:#34
Several years ago I saw a program were an ob/gyn cited those same statistics. Her point was this is something doctors should be informing their patients, but often didn’t. She went on to say, she wasn’t telling women who knew they wanted biological children they should grab any guy off the street when they were in their 20′s and most fertile, but rather that women needed to be aware of these facts because there was a trend to put off child bearing until the late 30′s or beyond. Women who waited until everything was “right”, the established career, the large house, money in the bank , having years alone with a spouse before children, etc. , were finding themselves unable to conceive or to have repeated miscarriages if they did conceive late 30′s – over 40. Not all women ofcourse, but the fact that 90% of a woman’s eggs are bad by the age of 42 is a pretty sobering statistic.
This info needs to get out not only to women, but to men as well. Men who want biological children “someday”, but prefer to spend their 30′s childfree may find themselves having less of a choice when they are older. Also, autism has been linked to the age of the father. Something else to seriously consider.
Jennifer 37
Selena #36- so very, very true.
I think information about fertility has done women who want to have biological children a service, because instead of women in their late 30′s trying again and again and just hoping things turn out okay, they can seek medical treatment/information sooner and increase their chances of getting the outcome they want.
I also think people need to hear about higher instances of autism (and some other issues) being linked to the age of the father, because from what I’ve observed most people don’t know about that.
Sometimes i think of the whole thing like going to a (4 year) college: if you know you want to go, there are some things you have to do in advance to prepare. You take your SATs (junior year). Apply for schools/financial aid (junior/senior year). Then you get your acceptances in April and show up in September. You don’t just wake up one day in August and decide that you want to go to Harvard and show up at the gates.
So it is with relationships/marriage/children- I think you have to do some things to ‘prepare’ so to speak. Knowing that you have some time constraints should just help you with your preparations.
JerseyGirl 38
Fertility rates for women start to dip after 30, accelerate after 35, & drop off a cliff after 40. Every medical study on the subject has confirmed this.
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This is somewhat true. But not entirely. Fertility rates in women do begin to dip. However, there are also many women who are in their 30s, might have the eggs of a 20 year old. Also, fertility rates in men also begin to dip at 30 as well. We usually only think about this in context to the woman. But nature does not prescribe a way of life where men are to be fertile and making babies well into old age and women are to not. The truth is nature wants both young health men and women to make babies. Not 40 year olds on either side. This is why men, as they age, experience ED and other sex related issues and why we see so many unnatural drugs targeted at men to buy back their ability to have sex. We are all familiar with the little blue pill because it is a huge problem for many men. And it’s a huge problem for men because that is nature’s way of also weeding down older men’s ability to have children. It has also been proven in many studies that older males are JUST as big a contribuators to issues in their offspring after having children after a certain age as women can be. So it is no big secret that women age and their bodies change. But it is also no big secret that the same happens in men. The difference is that men have tried to creat the illusion that they will always remain the most highest quality of fertility well into their 60s. Which is just a myth.
Ruby 39
Here’s some info reported in the Washington Post about a recent large study on autism: “When fathers are in their thirties, children have about 1 1/2 times the risk of developing autism of children of fathers in their teens and twenties. Compared with the offspring of the youngest fathers, children of fathers in their forties have more than five times the risk of developing autism, and children of fathers in their fifties have more than nine times the risk”.
Here’s a link to an article that lists other potential problems associated with older fathers:
http://www.dailyherald.com/story/print/?id=106959.
Selena 40
JerseyGirl,
How many women in their 30′s do you think have the eggs of a 20 year old? How many women in their 30′s do you think get tested, year by year, on the viablility and quality of their eggs and general fertility?
You use the word - might. The reason for the medical research on female fertility being shared with the general population is so that people can make informed decisions. Statements such as “many women in their 30′s might have the same eggs as a 20 year old” are of no solace to a couple who have gone through the miscarriage of a much wanted child. Let alone several miscarriages. Who possibly, optomistically, wanted to believe they fell into the might catagory.
If you can find statistics on the percentages of women in their 30′s and 40′s who actually have the eggs of a 20 year old, please share them.
JerseyGirl 41
Selena, I don’t need to find statistics to be quite honest. I said it was a possiblity. I didn’t say it was the rule. I am not disputing medical science in the least. Did I or didn’t I not agree that women’s fertility does drop? The point of my post was not to provide solace or medical advice. The point of my post was to point out that male fertility drops and changes as they age, as does women and sometimes, older age in women does not always mean an inability to conceive. I do not advocate that someone shouldn’t take their health and fertility seriously and not get checked. However, what I find incorrect here is the judgement that women are the only one s responsible for issues in infertility.
Helen 42
Putting together the thoughts of previous posters, I think the problem is this: In modern society, it makes sense from the standpoint of sheer survivability to put off having kids as long as possible, so that both men and women can become more secure in their jobs, higher education, etc. The drawback, for those who want kids, is that fertility problems increase with age in both men and women. So how can one reconcile these differences?
Sadly, right now, it’s impossible. Science and technology are making great advances in decreasing biological age, with research on telomeres and gene therapy, among other areas. But in the near future, it boils down to people having to make hard choices about what they would RATHER have.
In the end, we CAN have it all; we just can’t have it all at once. And don’t dismiss the idea that Karl R and others brought up earlier about adopting. I can personally attest to the fact that it’s possible to love adopted kids as much as biological kids. How much does it matter to pass on our genes, anyway? These aren’t really OUR genes; they’re the genes of our ancestors. If you read Richard Dawkins’ “The Selfish Gene,” you get quickly disabused of the notion of passing down your genes.
Selena 43
@#41
Sorry, but I believe you are making opinion statements without the research to back them up.
Ann 44
Selena, downtowngal, JerseyGirl, others: The statistics you are quoting about female fertility are coming from fertility clinics, and the data collected are on women who have presented themselves as having trouble conceiving. From the scores of friends I have who have been through those fertility clinic doors, I can tell you that these are businesses, and their research are used as such and are very much manipulated.
If you speak to a biologist, rather than a fertility doctor, you will find that there are no comprehensive studies on what the natural span of a woman’s fertility is, and there are no tests that can predict whether or not you can get pregnant. I have been searching for these studies for a long time for a paper I am writing and have only found two that come close to presenting controlled data on the natural span of female fertility for a representative sample population–and the researchers had to go way back in history to find the data. Reason being: Most women who are in their late 30s/40s/50s today are not trying to get pregnant and are taking precautions against it or are ending their accidental pregnancies. Point being: In order to get accurate statistics on female fecundity (ability to conceive) there are so many factors you would have to control for.
So, if you want to be truthful, you cannot make general statements about the fecundity of the entire female population in this way. You have women at 20 who cannot conceive (and yet “look” like they can) and women at 51 who can conceive (and yet “look” like they can’t).
When you approach menopause you will see this: you will start getting all the stern warnings from your ob/gyn to keep up with your birth control. Why? Because you might still get pregnant. (The assumption being that you don’t want to be at that age. Not sure why they always make that assumption, but…)
Or go to an abortion clinic and note the high number of married 40-somethings in there. (Abortion clinics report that the bulk of their patients are in their teens and in their 40s. You never read this statistic in the media.)
And yes, I do hold the media is responsible for this kind of bad science getting bandied about. When you have an ob/gyn who tells you that they just don’t know why some women get pregnant and why others don’t, no matter what the age, you have a good, honest doctor there.
JerseyGirl 45
Selena, what part of my post is completely untrue? Did I disagree with medical science? Did I not agree that women’s fertility decline as they age? Did I not say the same applies to men? Did I say that all women past 30 have the eggs of a 20 year old? Certianly not. Frankly, I am quite confused what you find so offensive or untrue. There is nothing that i said that was so far out there. If you are honest with yourself, you will see that we all look at the facts and come to our own conclusions. Since there are many different facts, with many different people, we all come to many different conclusions.
Selena 46
JG,
Prior to watching a television program some years ago, the only thing I knew, vaguely, was that the incidence of birth defects was higher when the mother was over 40, and that the average age of menopause was 50. It really shocked me to hear that by age 42, 90% of a women’s eggs were degraded, damaged, or otherwise unviable. Did you know that? The doctor on the program’s focus was on educating women of the realities of reproduction and ageing so they knew what they were up against. When you wrote of “…many women in their 30′s might have the eggs of a 20 yr. old” to me, that came across as dismissive, flip and possibly made up. Where did you read women in their 30′s might have the eggs of a 20 yr. old? And how would you define Many anyway? I was irked by this JG, but you are completely right: We all look at the facts and come to our own conclusions, and since there are many different facts, with many different people, we all come to many different conclusions. No surprise there huh? lol
And Ann made an excellent point about research. If we aren’t doing our own research on the research, where it comes from, how it was sampled, analyzed and drawing our own conclusions – we are allowing ourselves to be spoon fed what the media chooses to present any given week. Thanks for the reminder Ann!
Evan Marc Katz 47
Um, it’s generally considered harder to have a kid when you’re 40 than when you’re 30; that’s part of the reason that men prefer younger women. The fact that male fertility may drop as well doesn’t change the above statement or influence men’s opinions. I’m not sure what there is to debate.
A-L 48
I find it interesting that for so many years we’ve been telling ourselves that we can put off having children, and in fact that’s it’s better for children to be put off at least until one hits 30. The basic idea being that the longer the parents have a single life, the better they’ll be as parents because they’ll get out most of their self-centered desires and be more responsible parents. But I guess now that people have actually tried this path, they’re seeing some negative results regarding conception and birth defects so the pendulum appears to be swinging the other way (i.e., get kids done early so you don’t screw them up biologically). Just out of curiosity, how have people been searching for their data on all of this? I’ll be doing some of my own and depending on what I find may advance my baby timeline a bit (though it will still be while I’m in my 30s).
And Evan, would it be possible to go back to showing which thread a person is commenting on on the right hand side under “Recent Comments?” Also, can you enlarge the size again of the text within this comment typing window. It appears to be about 7pt or so, and even with my 20/20 (corrected) vision, it’s really small.
Joe 49
IceQueen proclaimeth:
Also, I dislike the attitude of older guys towards older women or women their own age. Hei, I will be old some day too they will not get a piece of me for putting down my older sisters!
As a woman who prefers younger men, aren’t you doing the same thing to older men that you complain they are doing to your elder sisters?
JerseyGirl 50
Selena, I will answer your questions when you answer mine. J But being that you choose to ignore mine, I will give yours the same consideration. I actually believe you to be dismissive and flip and possibly making up your own facts in-between some truth.
——————————————————————————————————
Evan Marc Katz Jan 6th 2010 at 07:32 am 47
Um, it’s generally considered harder to have a kid when you’re 40 than when you’re 30; that’s part of the reason that men prefer younger women. The fact that male fertility may drop as well doesn’t change the above statement or influence men’s opinions. I’m not sure what there is to debate.
——————————————————————————————————
I think we all understand what standard men hold women up to that they do not hold themselves up to. And while it might not change or influence men’s opinions, it should and does change and influence many women’s opinions as we learn more about then negative affects older men have on their offspring. Hence the reason why alot of women do not want to settle for an older man. We also have to consider biologically what he has to offer, good and bad.
JerseyGirl 51
Maybe as we learn more about the affects older men have on their children, we will slowly come to a point where men will begin to take women more seriously earlier in their own lives instead of wanting to play the field until they are in their 40s and then try to get a 20 year old to settle down with them. This could be a good thing for women . there is more and more research being done everyday on how older men affect their offspring. It’s probably one reason why we see so many cases of children with autism.
IceQueen 52
Joe,
I get a lot of attention from older men and I still talk to them and go out occasionally. Some of these guys I really appreciate, but I can’t help the fact that I do not fall in love with them. If I were a 32 year old guy, would I consider going out with a 44 year old woman on a date? No, a guy would usually dismiss that entirely, most of the time. But I still try to give these men a chance and try to date them because I might get attracted to one of them. It just doesn’t happen unfortunately.
I’m a free, self sufficient person and I can date who I want – they can be 25 or 40. It’s just that I dislike the culture of devaluing women based on their age and don’t want to be a part of it. I know this will sound unusual, but since we have a sort of an equality now, let’s have it all the way. If I have to work as much as the man and have the same duties as the guy, then I will have the same privileges, one of which, is dating younger (or same age), as long as that younger age group shows interest. After all, not all of the older guys that approach me are willing to be the complete provider, are they? A lot of them still want me to bring along my own paycheck. Kids is another issue – most of them have already had kids and are reluctant to go through that child raring experience again, and honestly not all of the 35-60 year old guys are fit enough to be a father of a small child. It takes immense energy to raise a child plus keep a regular job.
IceQueen 53
JerseyGirl brings out very valid points. These issues need to be put in balance.
It is obvious that nature wants us to have kids early on, after all in the ancient times the usual life longevity was only 30 years. Boys produce sperm very early and some girls can get pregnant as early as 13. Same as some women can get pregnant at age over 45. So the fertility span is quite broad. But those are all extremes. Nature is very smart and it has arranged a certain period for both sexes to have offspring. As was mentioned already, this is why many men are less likely to have good erections after a certain age, just like the testosterone levels drop after age 30 and so does their sex drive decrease eventually. Both sexes should have children early on. The human growth hormone starts decreasing at age 23 for both sexes, so this is the time that the actual aging starts. Women of course lose fertility earlier than men plus the culture/social status gives men a longer fertility span (perception). But it doesn’t mean that either should drag it out until they are 35 or older. Men might think that they can drag it out until they’re 35-40 and then they will find that fertile and hot 25 year old. They might, but their chances will diminish because there’s not enough 25 year old women to go around for all the men who desire them in the age group from 21-50. Plus the women in their 20s are not always willing to settle down these days.
There are a lot of studies now about men’s fertility. Sperm counts drop after age 30. A doctor told me that in couple infertility, 52% of the cases are due to the guy’s fertility problems. It’s still easier for the guys, of course, but it just needs to be taken into consideration, that’s all.
It would be much healthier for a woman who’s let’s say 32, to get pregnant by a 20year old healthy guy because his sperm is definitely more lively. Doesn’t often happen like that in real life, but biologically it would be much better than getting pregnant by a guy who’s over 35. This doesn’t mean we can’t have babies at an older age, but still.. and many of these things are in nature’s hands not ours.
Another issue is the money and guy’s stamina. Traditionally older guys are considered to be more affluent and better providers. This has always been the reason why the older guy/younger woman dynamic worked so well. Today it is not always the case. Many older guys today either have average incomes or they do not want to share their income with the woman. The female will still have to work and collect the child benefits from the taxes that she has herself paid. What is peculiar is that I have been approached many times by much older guys who make less money than I do. This is probably an exception, but it still happens.
But the biggest issue is his stamina and physical strength. Does a 40-50 year old guy really wants to go through all the child raring process again? I want a strong and healthy dad for my kid – someone who can carry the baby pram upstairs and can play hockey or ball with the small son. Someone who has the patience and stamina to take care of the youngin while I’m on errands, cooking, cleaning or making money. Is this something that most of these over 35 year old guys would wanna put up with? Many of them just seem interested in their motobikes, luxury travel and FHM.
NomDeGuerre 54
Re: #41
You have women at 20 who cannot conceive (and yet “look” like they can) and women at 51 who can conceive (and yet “look” like they can’t).
And you have men at 20 who cannot conceive (and yet “look” like they can) and men at 94(!) who can conceive (and yet “look” like they can’t). A 90 year old man concieved his own biological child. The absolute upper age limit for women having their own biological children is much, much lower than it is for men.
Or go to an Abortion clinic and note the high number of married 40 somethings there. Abortion clinics report the bulk of their patients are in their teens and early 40′s. (You never read this statistic in the media.)
Because it isn’t true. The CDC (Center for Disease Control & Prevention) keeps quite comprehensive statistics on abortion. According to their research, 20% of women who have abortions were teenagers, and only 2.4% were over 40. The majority of women having abortions were in their 20′s and 32.4% were between the ages of 20-24 (More than teenagers & women over 40 combined).
Ann 55
Figure 3, from CDC website, shows the abortion rate broken out by age group in a line chart. Top three lines (highest rate of abortions per 1,00 women) are in the age categories of under 15, 15 to 19, and over 44. Figure 2 shows the same info in a bar chart.
Here it is:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5212a1.Htm#fig3
JOe 56
I don’t know about you, dude, but I don’t know any guy who wants a younger woman so he can have kids. He wants a younger woman cause she looks better.
Karl R 57
Ann, (#55)
You misread the data. It’s not abortions per 1,000 women. It’s per 1,000 live births. Take a look further down the page for a more accurate breakdown by age (Table 16).
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5212a1.Htm#tab16
It looks like 2.8% of all abortions are for women who are 40+.
NomDeGuerre 58
Ann,
Thanks for posting the link.
The tables you are referring to point out the ratio of abortions per 1000 live births, not per 1000 women as you stated. Teenagers and women in their 40′s have far less children than women in their 20′s, which is why they can have a higher ratio of abortions to births than women in their 20′s who actually account for the majority of clients in abortion clinics.
Look at table 4 in your link, you will see that women in their 20′s had 55.3% (423,577) of all abortions in 2000 (20-24-32.6%, 25-29-22.7%). Teenagers accounted for 18.7% (143,286) and women over 40 had 2.8% (21,639). Women over 40 represent only a tiny percentage of women giving birth and those seeking an abortion.
Trevor 59
OK. This will probably be a strong aberration from any trend regarding age apropos dating scenarios. I am a 63 year old man. Granted a younger version of one physically, as I tend to be health conscious and active. Also, my field of endeavor is one that “keeps me in touch” with the now in many areas, ie technologically, et al. My dating pool includes women in their mid thirties to mid fifties. And the majority of them are mid thirties. At the risk of sounding conceited, which I am quite the opposite, even shy, some of these ladies have made the initial advance. Needless to say, I am completely aware of the realities of finite lifespans and not remotely thinking about having children or getting married (well.. have to think about that one.). But as far as just having a great time and sharing lots of wonderful stuff, sex included, it seems to be going well(!) Anyway, for the “really old” guys who have become depressed reading the above posts, there is hope! I have really enjoyed reading all of them, sincerely. Ciao.
Juls 60
I’m 20 and have dated someone significantly older, but I would never date someone who wants to be with me BECAUSE I’m younger and make a good breeding machine.
Maybe your problem is not your age, Adam, but the very sexist attitude you show.
Ann 61
Thanks for pointing out my misreading of the data. I was looking for data to support my claim that the majority of women having abortions are at either ends of the barbell and just did a random Google search. This factoid is what I had been told, not by the CDC, but by women at abortion clinics.
It could be that this anecdotal evidence is speaking more to the observation at the clinics that proportionally more women at either end of the barbell choose to end their pregnancy. (Maybe the reality is: “You wouldn’t believe how many older women we see having abortions…”–meaning, the day-to-day experience of women who are actually on the front lines flies in the face of the cultural expectation that older women can’t get pregnant naturally).
But back to my original argument: I was only making the point about the number of abortions to older women to support my assertion that actual fertility/fecudity rates among the female population are unknowable, so the bandying about of what your “chances” of getting pregnant are fall into the category of bad science–manipulated or misread (see how easy it is?) statistics. That a fellow blogger chose to zero in on that point and ignore my argument doesn’t diminish my argument, since the argument does not rest on the number of women who have abortions at what age.
What my argument hinges on is what is measurable and what is not, so statistics (the measurement of what is knowable) in general, and how they are used, are key to the discussion. So let’s go back to those statistics on the CDC site and then I will reiterate my original contention, so lost in the ensuing discussion.
If you read the CDC site you will notice that all abortion statistics are reported by abortion clinics/hospitals and the age is only reported when known. What is missing are the ages of ALL women having abortions and the TOTAL number of abortions performed–which would be near impossible to get. You’d have to collect data on and include the number of miscarriages (spontaneous abortions), abortions by non-reporting centers or offices, at-home abortions via unprescribed abortion pills or some other method, etc. In short, the CDC statistics are not representative of the phenomenon of abortion at large since they only include what is known and reported through very specific and defined channels.
The same is true of the CDC statistics on fertility, though there is something else at operation in the culling of these statistics. The fertility statistics on the site are the collected results of fertility clinics across the country, which is how the CDC monitors what is going on in that industry. From the clinic side of the story, these statistics are what a clinic uses to market its services. To be blunt, the CDC statistics report on the success of a business model. If you speak to women who have been to more than one clinic you will hear the stories about how one woman’s chances of getting pregnant change based on the “reputation” of the clinic. That’s because no clinic takes ANY woman wanting to get pregnant; they screen based on what they deem to be acceptable “prospects.” Since there are plenty of examples of women using fertility treatments (donated eggs/sperm/embyos) to have children after menopause even, we know that the “chances” of an “older woman” (post-35, in fertility clinic lingo) getting pregnant are not as bad as presented–unless a clinic has some reason for turning away women who desire the most aggressive types of treatment. It’s fine that clinics turn away women seeking treatment–IF they present it as a decision driven by a business model–but they don’t. They tell these women that they “cannot get pregnant.” Which is untrue. They can get pregnant. Under different circumstances. (And please don’t flame me with rants about the ethics of older women having children. I don’t care, and that’s not the point of this.)
What is missing from the discussion about fertility (besides more research into and more widespread information about the male half of the equation, which many bloggers here have brought up) is a comprehensive, longitudinal study into what is unknown–which is, what the natural span of human fertility/fecudity is. Such a study would require a sample population that is actively looking to reproduce without interference for decades. Obviously this kind of study is not possible (though there are some historical data that suggest that our fecundity lasts longer than the fertility clinic data would lead us to believe).
In sum, because the natural span of human fertility/fecundity remains an unknown, the “chances” of any one person conceiving or impregnating at any age cannot be given.
Jennifer 62
When I posted earlier, I was referring to women becoming pregnant and carrying a pregnancy to term without medical intervention (can’t speak for other posters though).
I think it’s good for women to know that if they choose to wait until a certain age to have kids, there is an increased chance of needing medical intervention (fertility drugs, IVF, donor sperm or egg, etc.) to make that possible.
Some women will have no problem with that at all and choose to wait. Others may use that information to reconsider some priorities. But no matter what a woman chooses to do, I think it’s hard to make an argument against having more knowledge on the subject.
Ann 63
@62: I agree with you. That’s all I’m saying. There is no information on what the true biological span of human fecundity (male and female) is because we humans exercise a great deal of personal choice when it comes to our reproduction (no control group is available). With that understanding, what kinds of choices we make are greatly influenced by whatever the prevailing beliefs are about our reproduction. That some women have the eggs of a 20-year-old at 40 is a belief. That most women do not is a belief. That we should have our kids young is a belief. That we can have them until whenever is a belief. All of it can be argued; none of it can be proved.
We believe what we believe at our own peril.
Karl R 64
Ann said: (#44)
“The statistics you are quoting about female fertility are coming from fertility clinics, and the data collected are on women who have presented themselves as having trouble conceiving. [...] these are businesses, and their research are used as such and are very much manipulated.”
“I do hold the media is responsible for this kind of bad science getting bandied about.”
Ann said: (#55)
“(highest rate of abortions per 1,00 women) are in the age categories of under 15, 15 to 19, and over 44.”
Ann said: (#61)
“Thanks for pointing out my misreading of the data.”
“the bandying about of what your ‘chances’ of getting pregnant are fall into the category of bad science manipulated or misread (see how easy it is?) statistics.”
“my argument hinges on is what is measurable and what is not, so statistics (the measurement of what is knowable) in general, and how they are used, are key to the discussion.”
“the CDC statistics are not representative of the phenomenon of abortion at large since they only include what is known and reported through very specific and defined channels.”
Let me get this straight. You believe that statistics are easily misused and misread. You also believe we can’t rely on the CDC statistics (despite your willingness to do so in #55, when you thought they supported your point). As evidence of how easy it is to misread and misuse statistics, you point out your own misreading (manipulation?) of the CDC statistics.
My chutzpah meter just redlined.
(If you don’t know what chutzpah is, look it up on wikipedia.)
Ann said: (#61)
“the CDC statistics are not representative of the phenomenon of abortion at large since they only include what is known and reported through very specific and defined channels.”
Do you have any evidence to suggest that non-reported abortions make up a statistically significant portion of total abortions? Do you have any evidence to suggest that non-reported abortions would not follow the same age distribution as reported abortions? Do you have any evidence to suggest that the abortions where age was not documented would not follow the same age distribution as those where it was documented?
And why would you include miscarriages (the accidental termination of a potentially wanted pregnancy) in with abortions (the deliberated termination of an unwanted pregnancy)?
I agree that the CDC data is not 100% complete. However, it appears to be the best available data, and it’s unbiased. Your criticism of those statistics (as “bad science”) is not based on evidence or sound statistical procedures. And you seem to have a heavy bias.
Fact: The average age of menopause is 51.
http://www.nia.nih.gov/HealthInformation/Publications/menopause.htm
Fact: Live births drop off during the 30s and dramatically fall during the 40s.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr57/nvsr57_12.pdf
(Note that the statistics for older women are by 10 year age range, not 5 year age range)
Fact: Abortions drop off during the 30s and dramatically fall during the 40s.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5212a1.Htm#tab16
(Note that the statistics for older women are for a 10+ year age range, not a 5 year age range)
Fact: This decline in births and abortions does not correspond to the age distribution of the female population.
http://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/c2kbr01-12.pdf
I can’t tell you whether an individual woman is fertile. I can tell you which demographic will be reproducing most in the next 5 years.
If you’d like to convince me that the CDC, NIH and census bureau are unreliable sources of information, you should probably start by demonstrating that you’re a better source of information.
Ann 65
Karl, you are missing the point completely and discussing statistics about fertility (rate of reproduction) as if they are statistics about fecundity (ability to reproduce). No one can predict who can or who cannot reproduce because there is no way as yet to determine fecundity. Apply some logic here.
If a man does not have a child at point X in his life, does that mean he was not able? No. It does not mean that. We don’t know what it means. There are many ways to explain the observable phenomenon that the man did not have a child at point X, only one of which might be that he was not fecund.
Similarly, there are many ways to explain the statistics you reference. You notice that the statistics above are not interpreted, they are merely reported. Look for causality and correlations, draw what conclusions you will from them. None of them can be proved one way or the other.
I was using statistics in my argument to make the point that fertility (reproducing) demonstrates fecundity, but absence of fertility does not demonstrate absence of fecundity. If you can show that fertility statistics exclude instances that demonstrate fecundity, then you can disavow the claim that fertility stats and fecundity stats are the same. Clues to fecundity that might not make it into fertility stats: miscarriages, non-reported abortions, etc.
To your other point, the prevalence of these things is not reported, so who knows how common they are or how significant statistically they are? Again–no one knows. I might have had a miscarriage last month and not know it. A miscarriage demonstrates ability to conceive (fecundity) without demonstrating fertility (reproduction). If I’m trying to get pregnant a miscarriage means I can get pregnant. Can I reproduce? Maybe, maybe not. Different question.
Which brings us back to–fecundity first, fertility second. The second depends on the first, and the first is an unknown. It is bad science to say that a non-event in the second is based on what is unknowable in the first case. The best we can do is theorize. And perhaps years from now whatever popular theory we now espouse will be proved wrong.
We do observe that most people seem unable to reproduce after a certain point. Why is that? To me, that is a very intriguing question. It isn’t that way in the rest of the animal kingdom. And, as yet, there is no known answer.
Karl R 66
Ann, (#65)
I am applying logic. First, you act as if the capability to reproduce is the only factor. If a woman is able to reproduce, but does not want another child, then Adam will not want to marry her. If a woman is able to conceive, but is consistently incapable of carrying a child to term, Adam will not want to marry her.
So for someone like Adam, fertility may be more important than fecundity.
Furthermore, the available statistics demonstrate some overall trends. We can assume that most of the women who have abortions are capable of conceiving, but are not willing to give birth. We can assume that the women who give birth are willing and able to give birth.
The rate of live births drops off even faster than the rate of abortions, so it appears that the overall willingness to reproduce declines faster than the ability. However, the rapid decline in both live births and abortions indicates that the ability to reproduce is also declining rapidly.
It is possible that the decline in abortions could be due to women over forty becoming vastly more disciplined about using birth control (as an alternative explanation for the statistical trend).
As for non-reported events, can you provide a plausible explanation why women over 40 would be getting unreported abortions in disproportionately large numbers? I can think of a plausible explanation why teenagers might get them in disproportionately large numbers, but not women over 40.
I agree that older women have disproportionately more miscarriages.
http://www.marchofdimes.com/professionals/14332_1155.asp#head3
I would say that supports the arguement that older women are less capable of reproducing.
And I think we can safely assume that fecundity ends with menopause (unless you can produce a documented exception). My girlfriend went through menopause at 42, so it can occur well before the “average” age.
Ann said: (#65)
“Look for causality and correlations, draw what conclusions you will from them. None of them can be proved one way or the other.”
You’re tossing around the absence of proof like it’s a persuasive arguement. Meteorologists can’t tell you when and where lightning will strike, but I’m not about to start dancing on the rooftops in a thunderstorm. Sometimes correlation is sufficient to advise a course of action.
If you want to pioneer long-term fecundity studies, I’ll applaud your efforts. But in the absence of such information, people are going to make decisions based on the best information available, even if it’s not perfect.
Selena 67
Re: #66
Thank you Karl for doing the research and providing the references. It’s all about making educated choices from my point of view.
Janet 68
Actually, Ann, I do think that the CDC statistics are pertinent to your argument. You had it right the first time. What they show is not that more women at either end of the barbell (as you call it) are getting pregnant (relative to the birth rate) but that more women in those age ranges (relative to the birth rate) are choosing to end their pregnancies. Perhaps we can infer from those stats that women in those age ranges are less willing to give birth. Perhaps we can extrapolate here and suggest that women in those age ranges are also less willing to conceive and are taking pains NOT to get pregnant in the first place (you left out IUDs, which allow for conception but not implantation–very popular in Europe).
From the outside what we would see is a bubble in the number of women in a certain age range giving birth. Which people who don’t dig deep enough might interpret to mean that women in certain age ranges CAN’T get pregnant.
Karl, your argument misses one key element–women get pregnant by men. Perhaps men’s ability to reproduce drops off just as abruptly or even more so than a woman’s, the example of Tony Randall notwithstanding. Just as one possible scenario: Perhaps as our environment has changed male fertility is more negatively affected than female fertility. There may be others: Male fertility is very unexplored territory in reproduction-land. So the fact that Eve isn’t getting pregnant after a certain age might just as well be Adam’s “fault.” Just think of all the women who were murdered/divorced/etc. because they didn’t produce male heirs, only for us to discover centuries later that it is the sperm that determines the gender of the child!
So in my book, Ann is right–nobody knows for sure what is going on here. She isn’t making a case for anything except accurate information–which fertility statistics don’t give us. There are whole countries where the birth rate is at or near zero–s0 clearly not every woman (and man!) in the world is as crazy to populate the earth as we are made out to be, and not all of us are frightened by any decline in fertility, which (in my experience) is what all these “statistics” are about. You are also peddling this fear, Karl.
And just for the record–you guys should stop touting your supposed biological imperative. Everybody knows that no guy is chasing young tail to get her pregnant!!! I would say that he is hardly thinking about that at all!!! Ha!!! He just wants the supposed social advantage that comes from his buddies thinking he’s getting laid.
It must also be clear to you that nature is about the egg and the resultant offspring–these are the precious commodities–not the superfluous sperm, most of which just ends up spinning off into nowhere.
Ann 69
Thanks, Janet @68. Yes, that is what I was getting at. I don’t know what Karl is getting at. He keeps insisting that fertility declines overall as we age and that isn’t even what I’m talking about. And I don’t even care about it. Have kids, don’t have kids, who cares. I’m saying that we don’t know what the natural arc of potential reproduction is for humans–neither for men nor for women. And to your point, we don’t know if that natural arc has changed over time. (I would imagine that our reproductive powers have been mightily compromised by growth hormones in dairy, pesticides in produce, metals in our water, whatever. But I digress…)
My main concern is how the medical world and the science press present so much about reproduction as fact, when really it is business. $20,000 a pop to be told what your “chances” are. Misleading science and shrewd business and very freaked-out people paying over tons of money. It ain’t right…
Karl R 70
Ann said: (#69)
“I don’t know what Karl is getting at.”
Whenever someone starts tossing facts around that sound like they’re incorrect (i.e. #55), I like to double-check the facts. You misread your data.
Then you started claiming that the CDC data was inaccurate (i.e. #65) since it did not represent 100% of the data. That is probably not true. The CDC data is accurate provided it captures a representative sample of the entire set of data. (Polls are based on this fact.) Since the CDC’s sample size greatly exceeded the minimum number for an accurate sample, the only way it could be inaccurate would be if it were non-representative of the entire set.
Not only did you offer no proof to back up your allegation that the CDC data was inaccurate, you didn’t even provide a plausible explanation for why it might be non-representative.
The information you were using to support your arguments was wrong. That was my entire point.
“Perhaps men’s ability to reproduce drops off just as abruptly or even more so than a woman’s,”
If that had been your entire point, I would have let it slide. Male fertility decreases with age. There is no hard limit (like female menopause), but I was easily able to find a source stating that the motility of sperm decreases as men age.
Janet said: (#68)
“Everybody knows that no guy is chasing young tail to get her pregnant!!!”
Are you sure? I don’t want kids. I started dating older women because they were less likely to want kids, and more likely to have kids that were grown and gone.
It seems perfectly plausible that a man who wants kids might also focus his search based on the age of the women.
Selena 71
Re :#70
Janet: “Everybody knows no guy is chasing young tail to get her pregnant!!!”
Karl R. “Are you sure?”… “It seems perfectly plausible that a man who wants kids might also focus his search based on the age of the women.”
Which brings us back to the letter writer Adam – who broke up with his partner of 5 years because he wanted children and she didn’t. It seems perfectly plausible to me that he might focus his search on the age range of women who are most likely to want and be able to have children. Which historically is under 40.
wanderlust 72
It’s pure numbers. Women in their 30′s are hard to snag for any guy not just men in their 40′s. In my experience women that are still single, never married, no kids and in their 30′s are career women. Not to mention sort of rare so they have a lot of options. Not all men go younger so if you’re a guy in his 40′s you have to remember you’re competing against guys in their late 20′s and 30′s as well. A guy in his 40′s will generally have more money than a guy in his 20′s or 30′s but that doesn’t mean much to some women.
Janet 73
@71: Yes, Selena, I am sure.
For both genders the issue of children can be a deal-breaker if they are contemplating marriage and they want different things. I know more women who would end a relationship if the guy doesn’t want them; I know lots of guys who don’t care one way or the other or definitely do not want them.
But no man is going around chasing tail (I want to use a stronger word here but fear it won’t get through the censors) because he wants to impregnate that woman. Please. Let’s be real here. Getting her pregnant is the farthest thing from his mind. Ha!!!
Janet 74
Karl @70: Ann didn’t say the CDC data was inaccurate, she said it doesn’t represent what people (like YOU) seem to think it represents. It does not represent what is possible in terms of human reproduction, it represents what has happened in any given year.
That’s like saying the tree didn’t fall in the forest because you, Karl, didn’t hear it. According to your logic, a 46-year-old woman can’t get pregnant because she isn’t in the CDC stats on abortion or assisted live births. I’m sure that practicing Catholics Tony Blair and his wife Clarie and his son Leo would be very surprised to hear that.
Ann stated quite clearly at the beginning that she is researching what the potential for human reproduction is–not what the actual rate of reproduction is. Did you miss this? Do you have any data that can actually answer her questions? No, you are just descending into the usual ad hominem attacks.
Ann 75
Janet @74: You are too funny! Everyone knows that Tony Blair’s son Leo does not exist–because his wife was 46 (if not more!) when Leo was born. And the CDC statistics on abortion clearly state that a woman cannot get pregnant after 44. So Leo must not ever have been born. Unless…oh, dear. I’m not misreading those pesky CDC statistics again, am I?
Karl R 76
Janet said: (#74)
“Ann didn’t say the CDC data was inaccurate,”
Ann said: (#61)
“In short, the CDC statistics are not representative of the phenomenon of abortion at large since they only include what is known and reported through very specific and defined channels.”
Feel free to read Ann’s statements in their original context.
Janet said: (#74)
“According to your logic, a 46-year-old woman can’t get pregnant”
I think the Guinness record is 66. According to my logic, women can’t get pregnant after menopause (on average, 51). Based on the miscarriage rates, they seem to have significant difficulty before then.
“Ann stated quite clearly at the beginning that she is researching what the potential for human reproduction is [...] Do you have any data that can actually answer her questions?”
Besides the world record (66), the average age of menopause (51), the miscarriage rate at age 45 (over 50%), the rate of downs syndrome at age 45 (1 in 30) and 49 (1 in 10)…
For older men: fathers in their 40s are 5.75 times as likely to have offspring with autism than fathers in their 20s and 30s. Their sperm also has substantially less motility.
If Ann is researching this, then why am I finding more information on this topic than she is? I’ve spent less than 15 minutes researching it.
I can say with certainty that a woman’s reproductive potential ends at a certain age, it diminishes as she ages, and the potential for genetic defects also increases as she ages.
Furthermore, I can say with reasonable certainty that a man’s reproductive potential doesn’t seem to end, though it also diminishes as he ages, and the potential for genetic defects also increase as he ages.
Janet said: (#73)
“no man is going around chasing tail [...] because he wants to impregnate that woman. Please. Let’s be real here. Getting her pregnant is the farthest thing from his mind. Ha!!!”
I find this statement surprising, since you just accused me of making ad hominem attacks.
How can you say that with certainty? Do you know the motivation of every man who is seeking a younger wife?
Last year I had one man tell me the story of what he went through (at the age of 50) to get a younger wife so he could have a second chance at raising a family. He was trying to persuade me to start while I was still young, and therefore spare myself the difficulty that he went through. (He couldn’t seem to understand that I do not want kids.) I doubt that he’s the only man for whom fatherhood is the primary motivation.
Evan Marc Katz 77
Ann and Janet,
To an objective third party, Karl is the one who is making more sense. Your point is that a 46 year old woman CAN have children biologically. Karl’s point is: who cares? Any man who wants his own biological children is going to spend most of his time looking for women 25-35. The fact that men’s fertility goes down as they age has absolutely no bearing on the situation. Whether he’s 25 or 75, if he wants kids, he’s looking for a woman younger than 40. All your statistics actually support Karl and miss the gist of the entire post.
Ann 78
EMK, I think a lot of people care if a 46-year-old woman can give birth. Especially all of those 46-year-old women who might/might not want to and the men who are in relationships with them and also might/might not want to. What about them?
I think you missed the gist of the thread, which, true, went off topic.
And just like woman of a certain age who haven’t chosen to reproduce, I would say that if a man of a certain age hasn’t chosen to reproduce he might not be as keen on it as some others and he might want to look at that. Unless, of course, he foolishly believes the myth that men can reproduce without problems until they are one foot in the grave.
Ann 79
Oh–sorry. One more thing. My point is not that a 46-year-old woman can give birth. That is beyond contest since it happens quite often. My point is that we don’t know what the natural rate of decline in fertility/fecundity is, neither for men nor for women. Yet fertility clinics, and the media who pick up their stats, present this as a known fact. It isn’t. That is all that I am saying. Janet added that there seem to be indicators that our ability to reproduce is probably changing.
So in my view, any kind of talk about what people are/aren’t “attracted” to or what people think is possible for them in relationship is just a bunch of hooey. No man can tell when a woman is fertile, if she is fertile, or when her fertility ends. Some women can get pregnant up until a year after their periods stop (so my ob/gyn counsels women entering menopause and thrilled to ditch their birth control), but no one can say who those women are. So there ya go. Ignore this at your peril.
Ann 80
Karl@76: Because what you are saying is irrelevant to what I am researching. As I said, I am not talking about whether or not women should get pregnant, or give birth, or what might happen if they do, I am talking about what the actual decline in the rate of fecundity (ability to conceive) is over the span of our lifetimes. This is a very important question for all of us, especially as more people are getting married later, as divorce and second families become more prevalent, and as more and more people (single women, gay couples, traditional hetero couples) turn to assisted reproduction to build their families. It’s even an important question to ask in terms of how changes to our environment and in our food supply are affecting our bodies. This is not some “feminist” issue to get your manly knickers in a twist over. Think about it.
sayanta 81
interesting tidbit- Marie Antoinette’s mother was around 42 when she gave birth to Miss Let-them-eat-cake. And that was in the 1700s…
A Reader 82
“Whether he’s 25 or 75, if he wants kids, he’s looking for a woman younger than 40.”
Yeah, maybe, but there is no way I would want to be stuck with some shriveled up 45, 55, 65 or 75 year old man and his kids unless he was R-I-C-H and he had already given me an irrevocable trust fund PLUS he had hired a 24/7 nanny for both him AND the kids. And I am sure I’m not the only woman who feels that way. Let men want what they want, but until they learn to be realistic they will continue to be disappointed.
Or they’ll keep kidding themselves into believing that the arm candy they’re escorting around sees them as anything but a wad of Benjamins. But the arm candy won’t be me.
Janet 83
Ann @78: Well put! And let’s take it a step further. If the demographic of this dating/relationship site (as I understand it) is primarily single women over 35, and all of the single men who might date them want women under 35 because these men forgot to procreate (and because men are only interested in sex with younger women for reasons of procreation–still very funny), who cares about those men? A man of any age who wants children is irrelevant to a woman of any age who does not want them or cannot have them. And vice versa. Not rocket science.
Joe 84
Come on Ann, even you have to concede that while a person doesn’t know what age a specific woman will stop being able to have kids, that the older she gets the more the odds decrease.
Ann 85
Joe@84: How would I know what the odds are of a specific woman or a specific man being able to have kids at any specific point in that specific person’s life? Even YOU have to concede that that’s a pretty hard thing to determine.
Karl R 86
Evan said: (#77)
“Any man who wants his own biological children is going to spend most of his time looking for women 25-35.”
Let’s turn it around. If women are concerned about the man’s fertility (and problems like autism) they may spend most of their time looking for men under 35 as well … regardless of their age.
If everyone starts doing this, then people who want kids probably shouldn’t wait until they turn 36 to start searching for a spouse.
Ann said: (#78)
“I think a lot of people care if a 46-year-old woman can give birth. Especially all of those 46-year-old women who might/might not want to and the men who are in relationships with them and also might/might not want to.”
In this particular thread (and I agree with you that it’s wandered), we’re discussing the decision-making process of single men and women who want to become parents. When they look at a potential spouse, do you think they would seek an older partner if they had more accurate statistics on fecundity?
Think about how people make decisions when the outcome really matters.
Let’s say that you have leukemia and you’re getting a bone marrow transplant. You research the statistics, and you discover that one hospital performs successful bone marrow transplants 78% of the time. Another hospital performs successful bone marrow transplants 83% of the time. Which hospital do you choose to have your bone marrow transplant at?
When the stakes are that high, even a small percentage is a huge deal.
Ann said: (#78)
“No man can tell when a woman is fertile, if she is fertile, or when her fertility ends.”
In my leukemia example, nobody knows whether the patient will survive the bone marrow transplant. But the patient will be trying to stack the odds in his/her favor.
Biology isn’t fair to women. Let’s say a couple gets married and discovers that one of them has fertility problems. If the man has the problems, it will cost about $2,000-3,000 for donor sperm and a cycle of artificial insemination. If the woman has the problems, it will cost approximately $15,000-20,000 to accomplish the same thing.
Ann said: (#78)
“any kind of talk about what people are/aren’t ‘attracted’ to or what people think is possible for them in relationship is just a bunch of hooey.”
A Reader said: (#82)
“there is no way I would want to be stuck with some shriveled up 45, 55, 65 or 75 year old man and his kids unless he was R-I-C-H”
Ann, I would say most people can give you an explicit answer about what they are/aren’t attracted to in a relationship.
Janet said: (#83)
“If the demographic of this dating/relationship site (as I understand it) is primarily single women over 35,”
That’s probably not correct. I just checked the ages of women on Match.com within 10 miles of my location.
age 25-29 = 720
age 30-34 = 607
age 35-39 = 516
age 40-44 = 447
age 45-49 = 358
The younger women are also more likely to be interested in procreating.
Selena 87
How many women, proportionately, in their 40′s are desiring to have children these days? Anyone know? Anyone want to take a guess?
I know very few women who had their first or subsequent children over 40, though I can name a few celeb’s if pressed. Biologically possible or not, trend or not, the vast majority of women who want biological children seem to manage to get this done in their 20′s to mid 30′s. I know some who got tubal ligations so as to avoid any “accidents” after having acheived the number of children they wanted. Seems to me women who are willing to have children past the age of 40, just might be a small niche in the dating pool. And maybe that’s what fellows in their 40′s who want biological children are coming up against – there really are fewer women within their age range who even want children – even if theoretically they could have them.
A 50-something friend of mine made this comment once when referring to a co-worker who had her first baby at 44, and hoped to have another one in a couple years: ” It’s easy to raise a baby when you’re in your 40′s. The thing to think about is, do you really want to be raising teenagers when you’re in your 60′s?”
I think that might weigh in with some women who’ve already been there.
Karl R 88
Selena asked: (#87)
“How many women, proportionately, in their 40′s are desiring to have children these days? Anyone know? Anyone want to take a guess?”
Checking Match.com for women in my area:
Ages 40-44
12% definitely
11% someday
31% not sure
13% probably not
12% do not want kids
20% no, but it’s okay if their partner has kids
Ages 45-49
3% definitely
1% someday
20% not sure
14% probably not
31% do not want kids
30% no, but it’s okay if their partner has kids
I wouldn’t call it a representative sample of all women, but Adam is probably seeing similar statistics in the women he’s looking at on the dating site.
Joe 89
Ann said: (#85)
“How would I know what the odds are of a specific woman or a specific man being able to have kids at any specific point in that specific person’s life?”
I didn’t ask you to know the odds. I asked you concede that the odds decrease as age increases (reading for comprehension). Would you say that any individual’s odds for having healthy children are exactly the same when they’re 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 and 70?
Helen 90
Of course fertility declines with age. Trying to argue one’s way around this by talking about this individual or that individual is irrelevant. Fertility declines in EVERY individual with age.
It’s called telomeres. If you wish, look it up.
Of course, I’d argue that fertility shouldn’t be the deciding factor in romantic relationships, since: 1) people can adopt, 2) people can seek alternative treatments, and 3) kids are not the be-all-and-end-all of a relationship.
Ann 91
Helen @ 90: Well put. However, I am not making assertions one way or the other about whether or not the ability to conceive decreases over time. I agree that it seems to, for everyone, and certainly everyone believes that this is so. But there is no empirical data that addresses the observed decline in a control group–the only data on the subject comes out of fertility clinics. These numbers cannot serve as control data since these clinics cherry-pick their clients–I mean, patients–to up their apparent rates of success. (This is where the CDC data on assisted reproduction comes from.) I believe it is unethical for fertility clinics to cherry-pick (first off) and then to present this data as an empirical study in what is possible regarding human reproduction.
Karl@86: I think Janet was talking about EMK’s site, not dating sites in general. Also, correct me if I am wrong (and I’m sure you will), but hasn’t EMK said that most of his clients are women over 35 or 40, some such? If that’s so, it is strange to me to say “who cares” about a 46-year-old client’s possible pregnancy or to suggest that this would not be an issue for these women when dating or in relationship. This is where more information on what can happen would come in handy, so that all of us can make good decisions for ourselves when it comes to reproduction. And reproduction, as I’ve learned here, is the main reason that people are out there hooking up, right?
Joe @ 89: First you say you aren’t asking me what the odds are, then you ask me if I will concede that the odds decrease. If I don’t know what they are to begin with, how I can answer the second question?
Janet 92
Ann@91: Yes, I was talking about this site.
Karl @ 86: They might pick an older partner. EMK did.
Evan Marc Katz 93
I did, Janet but I took a BIG risk. Most men are NOT willing to take the same risk that they won’t be able to have their own biological children. Why? Because women’s fertility drops like a rock after 36.
http://www.advancedfertility.com/age.htm
All this subterfuge about whether an individual 45 year old woman can have kids or an individual 30 year old man is infertile or whether fertility clinic data is valid misses the broader point: when men are interested in starting families, they usually look to younger women to do so. As they SHOULD. Any exceptions don’t disprove the rule. And the perceived “unfairness” doesn’t change it either.
Which is why women 30-35 should take their love lives VERY seriously. That’s why I’m still beating this dead horse. Because any woman who is holding out hope that Mr. I Want to Have a My Own Biological Kids is going to choose to marry her at age 46 is in for a rude awakening. Sorry for that completely objective reality check.
Janet 94
EMK@36: I’m not sure why you think I have any vested interest in this. I don’t. Like Ann, I don’t care who pursues whom or for what reason. I’m all set in that regard and in the kids regard, too! But even for those of us who are all set, pregnancy/birth control are still an issues. How much more complicated it might be if I were dating! But you want this thread to be all about “older” men wanting children, rather than “older” women having full and correct information about what is going on in their bodies. Whatever. I hardy care about it.
Not sure where the “unfairness” part joined the conversation–I think that was from Karl. Not Ann, and certainly not me. I don’t think biology is unfair. I’m sure that many woman are quite happy to be done with all of that childbearing stuff. Not all of us define ourselves in relation to what our uteri (and related parts) offer men. Even as we adore our men and love our lives with them.
Karl R 95
Ann said: (#91)
“I am not making assertions one way or the other about whether or not the ability to conceive decreases over time. [...] there is no empirical data that addresses the observed decline in a control group the only data on the subject comes out of fertility clinics.”
Your entire contention is based on your claim that all of the available data comes from fertility clinics. Yet you have not offered one shred of proof to back up this claim.
Read this article:
http://www.obgyn.net/displayarticle.asp?page=/women/articles/smith/smith_0399
The author is an OB/GYN and laparoscopic surgeon. I took a look at his ciriculum vitae, and it seems fairly obvious that most of his work involves laparoscopic procedures, both orthopedic and OB/GYN. Since the primary laparoscopic OB/GYN procedures (that spring to my mind) are hysterectomies and oopherectomies, I think we can safely conclude that he’s not in the fertility business.
He discusses how women’s ovaries start with 6 million eggs (while they are still fetuses in the womb). This number decreases to 300,000 eggs by the onset of puberty. Unless fetuses and prepubescent girls are visiting fertility specialists, I’d say there’s adequate evidence that someone did a lifelong study on fertility with a control group.
Quoting the article:
“After the age of 35 this disintegration and atrophy of the eggs begins to accelerate, and by the time a woman stops her menses, essentially all her eggs are gone. But of more importance to the perimenopausal woman is the fact that a large portion of these eggs are not viable during these last few years. That is, the egg may be released, but it cannot be fertilized or it will end in a miscarriage because of chromosomal problems. Thus, a woman’s fertility begins to decline significantly after the age of 35. Spontaneous and successful pregnancies after the age of 40 become less common, and after the age of 45 are rare (but not zero!).”
So I’ve given you information from an OB/GYN who is clearly not in the fertility business. He’s relying on data that clearly comes from an empirical control study.
Ann,
Why should any woman (of any age) place more weight on your claims than on those of an OB/GYN with two Ph.D.s and no bias on the subject? Why should any woman (of any age) place more weight on your claims than on the statistics provided by the March of Dimes, who again have no bias on the subject. (The March of Dimes got their statistics on miscarriages from The National Vital Statistics Report, another nonbiased source.)
And according to the article I provided the link to, you can’t get pregnant after menopause (without medical intervention). However, since ovulations and menses become sporadic, it becomes difficult ascertain when they’ve actually ceased. That’s why your doctor recommends that you stay on birth control.
People listen to facts. (Edit: most people listen to facts; a few people seem proud to be exceptions to the rule.) If you want people to listen to you, post some facts that support your point of view.
Janet 96
Karl @95: Interesting article. Sort of. There’s is no link to the original studies supporting his assertions. So dig deeper, if you will, since you seem to have a lot of time to do this sort of thing. As you say, most people listen to facts, not assertions (though I agree with you that most people will listen more to the assertions of someone with a bunch of letters after his/her name than to an anonymous person on a blog). (Though those of us who hang around with PhDs in this and that often find their credibility wanting. Ha!
)
Ann 97
Janet@96: I know–it’s very funny! But yes, I’d like to see the original studies, too. Can you look them up for us, Karl, please?
Re: the “facts.” When you are a woman you get very used to the “facts” regarding your reproductive stuff (as passed on by your ob/gyn and the media) changing every few years. My friends and I have always been amused by it. But it’s always nice to know what they are saying these days.
Helen 98
Let’s get one thing straight, for once and for all:
THE SCIENTIFIC DATA OVERWHELMINGLY SHOW THAT FERTILITY DECLINES WITH AGE. A mechanism of action has even been established for how this happens.
This is true not just of those who visit fertility clinics, but in all humans male or female, across all age groups, and in all sexual organisms including plants and other animals. Sorry to use all caps, but how else can the point get across at this stage? If you don’t believe this, please do a PubMed search.
Why do people feel so intent on trying to disprove this? Is the deeper concern that these facts might make 40+ women feel as though they’re less attractive because of reproductive issues? There are plenty of men who don’t feel the need for biological children, or indeed, children at all. Indeed, there are plenty of single men who already have biological children but want a partnership with another woman who doesn’t want any more kids. There are all sorts of men and women, all sorts of desires. Fertility or lack thereof does not in any way imply that one can’t find a beautiful relationship.
Karl R #95: “Unless fetuses and prepubescent girls are visiting fertility specialists…” “most people listen to facts; a few people seem proud to be exceptions to the rule”… oh my.
Ann 99
Helen @ 98: I don’t know that anyone is disputing/asserting this except you and Karl, though I would contest your assertion that this decline is also true for other animals and plants (read “Why Is Sex Fun” about the evolution of human sexuality by Pulitzer Prize- winner Jared Diamond–he says that humans are the only mammal where the females undergo menopause, and his analysis of this from an evolutionary point of view is just fascinating). And I would also contest your assertion that this decline is well understood scientifically.
But you and Karl seem to believe that it’s all figured out, so perhaps in your surety you can help me in finding the empirical research to prove it, since that is what I am looking for and have not been able to find. Again (till I am blue in the face I have said this, but let me rephrase and maybe it will get through this time): What I am looking for is a longitudinal study on the arc of female fecundity in humans. Ideally it would have been published in a peer-reviewed journal, but at this point I would take any study, even if not published or reviewed by peers. To be considered “scientific,” the study must 1) state an assertion that can be disproved (if it can’t be disproved then it cannot be proved & therefore falls into the category of “beliefs”); 2) be able to be replicated; and 3) have predictive value.
Let me explain how this works and why what you are asserting is not persuasive to me: Starting with Karl’s recommended site and all of those numbers. They are no good for the purpose of proving anything scientifically because they are without attribution to any source, which begs the question, Where do these numbers come from? And then the next question, what methodology was used to arrive at these numbers? Take the first one from Karl’s link–the number of eggs human females are born with. Is this number from autopsies on female fetuses? Or from some kind of recent (last 20 years) imaging technology? How many newborn females were studied? From what demographic? Was the sample representative?
OK, you answer all of these questions. We’re still left with the biggest problem–the “longitudinal” part. Since we’re talking about change over time, the study would have to be longitudinal. In this case, the study, to be definitive, would have to have been conducted over the course of several decades, studying a representative female population over the course of their reproductive lives–almost 60 years. If that study were completed today it would have to have been started in 1950, and you would have had to have had parents in that pre-digital age who were willing to have their newborn daughters have their ovaries opened up and their eggs counted and those females would have to have been tracked for six decades–and still, the results of the study would have been affected by the subjects’ choices regarding reproduction. You can see how unlikely such a study is. So I suspect that an empirical study of the arc of female fecundity in humans does not exist. (We won’t even get into such a study on male fecundity–it would be impossible!!)
What this leaves us with is a lot of theories about how female reproduction works, theories that change too often for my comfort. As I said, we can observe a lot of things in this regard and make inferences and assumptions, but we can’t explain much. And here is the problem with those inference and assumptions: If a woman goes to that website that Karl referred to she might think that she can get pregnant because acc to the “facts” so presented she’s got millions of good eggs left. But then she goes to the CDC site for assisted reproduction and sees that there is a significant number of women in her age range who are deemed infertile. Confusing–which group is she in? Or a woman goes to Karl’s site and thinks she can’t get pregnant because the site says that because of her age her eggs are all dried up. And then she goes to the CDC site on abortion and sees that there are women 44+ having abortions. Confusing–which group is she in?
In other words, because there are so many exceptions to the “rules” as laid down by the reproductive experts you’ve put forth, there is no predictive value in any of this information. So how useful is it on an individual level (let’s say, if you are picking a woman and assuming she can bear you children when she can’t, or if you are shacking up with someone because you are assuming that she can’t bear a child, but she can) to say that one’s ability to bear children declines over time if you can’t say how or when or why? Again, these are big unknowns.
For me the deeper issue is not about how men will respond to women, though I suppose that is the discussion that EMK was launching with this letter. For me the deeper issue is what was expressed very early on in this thread–women and the men who would be in relationship with them should have all the information possible, whether they want children or not.
So if either of you can find that longitudinal study, that would be great. Just post the link here and I’ll be sure to read it.
And thanks for the lively debate about this!!! It’s been very helpful in clarifying my ideas and figuring out the best way to present them.
Ann 100
Helen: Wow! Thanks so much for that PubMed site! I has great info on it. Not exactly what I’m looking for, which would be a study on what is normative (everything there is about what goes wrong and why). But there were a couple of papers that were very intriguing (could only read the abstracts):
1) One said that until the modern age, when advanced research techniques allowed us to observe the connection between menstrual cycles and female fecundity, people believed that overall good health was the main indicator of a woman’s ability to conceive. (This belief has been disproved, of course, even though men in the dating pool haven’t caught up. Question: In the absence of a normative study on the arc of human female fecundity, what other beliefs are waiting to be disproved?
)
2) The really interesting one for me, because I was wondering how increasing lifespans would affect human fecundity. Keep in mind that what is being broached in this paper is a theory, a belief, and is not a “fact.” But read the abstract for “Menopause, evolution and changing cultures” anyway (italics mine):
The menopause is an isolated event in a much wider process that was probably an evolutionary adaptation essential for survival in the Pliocene. As a reproductive strategy, it is largely vestigial in the 21st century, part of an era that has seen a doubling of the average human longevity compared with that of the past. This process commences as an accelerated decline in female fertility, usually from the fourth decade of life, culminating in a total cessation of reproductive capacity for those surviving. The 20th and 21st century sees a huge increase in the numbers surviving and the duration of that postreproductive life phase extending for decades. This extended period of what is essentially a hormone deficiency state is a recent phenomenon and by no means part of the natural history of the human individual. It is therefore not surprising to see a postmenopausal increase in the incidence of so many disorders above that expected by age alone. Recent reproductive patterns have seen increases in the birth rate and requests for fertility treatments among women in their late 30s and 40s. Many try for pregnancy but are unsuccessful. The genes that permit later reproduction and hence later menopause are therefore being preferentially selected. Slowly over generations we will expect to see the fertility of future 40 year olds increase and the age of menopause to extend much later into our, now, longer lives.
Fascinating!! I knew there was a reason I was on this blog. Thanks again, Helen!
Michael 101
All this subterfuge about whether an individual 45 year old woman can have kids or an individual 30 year old man is infertile or whether fertility clinic data is valid misses the broader point: when men are interested in starting families, they usually look to younger women to do so. As they SHOULD. Any exceptions don’t disprove the rule. And the perceived unfairness doesn’t change it either.
This is true.
I do find younger women attractive, and understand this is the exact, sole reason.
Karl R 102
Ann, (#99)
You might want to read the information provided before you criticize it.
Ann said: (#99)
“If a woman goes to that website that Karl referred to she might think that she can get pregnant because acc to the ‘facts’ so presented she’s got millions of good eggs left.”
By “millions” I’m going to assume you meant at least 2 million. According to that website, females only have 300,000 eggs by the onset of puberty (starting with 6 million as a fetus). By my conservative estimates, that means a female could only have 2 million eggs if she was at least two years younger than the age of puberty.
That would be a bit young for her to be reproducing.
Ann said: (#99)
“But then she goes to the CDC site for assisted reproduction and sees that there is a significant number of women in her age range who are deemed infertile.”
Are you referring to women over the age of 35?
Ann said: (#99)
“Confusing which group is she in?”
If she’s not certain whether she’s under 10 or over 35 … I’d say fertility is the least of her worries.
You haven’t demonstrated that you’ve carefully read the links we’ve provided. (You’ve demonstrated to my satisfaction that you carelessly read them.) You haven’t read any of the peer-reviewed medical journal articles cited in those links. (Or apparently even noticed that a couple of them listed the articles they cited from.)
What possible motive would I have to spend my time (or more accurately, my girlfriend’s time, since she’s the one with access to a medical library) searching for an article that you’ll misunderstand, even if you bother to read it in its entirety?
Janet 103
Ann@99 & 100: Interesting stuff!!
Michael@101: Go after whoever you want! Nobody cares.
Evan Marc Katz 104
Just preemptively posting specifically for Ann, who seems to think that I only post ideas that I agree with. If you’ve taken a look at the comments over the years, it’s clear that this is patently false. Your comment was deleted because it was insulting to another reader. The next one was deleted because it was insulting to me. Such comments – ones that involve name-calling to either me or another poster – are not something I want on my website…however any arguments that seem reasonable are posted. Which is why I’ve posted all of your other arguments, even though I didn’t agree with any of them.
And, as previously stated on this blog, if you don’t like the quality of the conversation here, or the point of view expressed by yours truly, there are millions of other blogs out there. No need to get bent out of shape at me.
O-Tay 105
@Michael #101 (Feb 10th ’09)
You said you seek out younger women because they look better and that’s the sole purpose of going for them. Well, someone already gave a response to this by saying that you- as an older man- need to be aware that you are competing with younger men who also look BETTER , have younger bodies & are not so hung up on old fashion traditions as older men. Also, younger men can be shown the ropes as lovers instead of being set in their ways. They also seemed to support the idea of womenhaving dreams and careers. Older guys seem to only want someone who is young and nothing more, really.
Dear Julia 106
I am 31 and was previously married to a man who is now 50. When we met he was an extremely hot 39 year old, he didn’t look his age, he was super buff and fun to be with. I have worked in modeling and am considered a beautiful girl. Unknown to me at the time, my ex was completely shallow and into my looks, that is why he wanted me. I didn’t think much of it at the time, but now realize how gross that was.
It is similarly gross to me that the men I know at work who are 40+ are interested and think they should have a chance with me. I am told I look like I am in my early to mid-twenties. Why in the world would I want a guy with graying hair, love handles and a saggy jaw line? Is it that they make $250K? It isn’t enough to me that they are successful and make a decent salary… I am successful on my own and make $15oK, not as much as these older men, but enough to get me by. Men need to get a clue, women just aren’t willing to settle like they once were. Pretty women who have a brain and are successful can have what they want. Men shouldn’t be threatened by it, but they should be realistic when setting goals.
I realized too late what a mistake it was for me to be with older men. My ex changed dramatically in his attitudes and looks somewhere between 43-48; he hit the wall. That entire situation, it was a real wake up call with regard to age. Now, I wouldn’t consider being interested in a guy who is more than 4 or 5 years older.
Even in this Adam’s situation, he is 42 now. If he is lucky enough to find a younger woman, she probably won’t want to hurry into getting pregnant. Isn’t it good to have couple time before hurrying into children? Realistically, he may be a first time dad at 44 or 45. Do the math, he will be the 52 year old dad at the little league game.
mermaids614 107
I tire of older guys stating they don’t want a woman older than around 34 because they want kids. I think it’s just an excuse. It’s obvious that the original poster just wants a younger woman. Point blank. He’s trying to save face by stating that he wants kids, blah blah blah. So many women are having healthy children in their late 30s/early 40s. If children were so important to this man, perhaps he shouldn’t have waited until HE was in his 40′s to take action. It appears that no matter the reason, when men hit 30, they want younger women. I’m female, 33 and I’ve noticed this a lot since I turned 30. Male friends and associates my age that I’ve known for years are aggressively seeking women around the age of 22. Why, I don’t know. At 22, women are having fun, self-absorbed, don’t want children yet, still trying to figure out who they are and what they want, and some act like teenagers. This is why I would never date a younger man (no more than 2 or 3 years younger) because, sure, some guys in their early to mid 20s have no problem dating a 33 year old, but once that guy gets a few years older, he’s going to want someone younger. For me, in the past year, I’ve realized that at my age, I would love a guy thats in his early 40s, handsome, established, successful–that sounds like a 10! So the original poster may need to look at himself and find out what the problem is. It isn’t women in their 30s!
mermaids614 108
Another thing, I have one son, had him at 16 and he’s about to go to college. I’m open to having more children, but I don’t have to have more. I don’t feel the need to settle just so I can have another. Since my son is almost grown, I am looking for someone who doesn’t have small children and their mother needing or wanting something every day. I am looking for someone who I can just pick up and go travel somewhere with any time. He’s not confined because he has his kids for the weekend, he’s not making child support payments, whatever. Not saying being a teen mom was an ideal situation, but I’m 33 now and I feel like I have my pick!
lynn 109
Here’s a thought: maybe, just maybe, he picked the wrong niche website to join.
A lot of the mainstream dating sites like Match.com attract serial daters. They may say they want to marry/settle down, but if their lifestyles contradict this, don’t believe them.
Last year I went out with a guy (I met him on craigslist, but he also has a profile on match.com) who started talking about marriage on the first date, mentioned my age and that I “could still have kids” (I was 40 & he was 41 at the time), and I said yes, but that’s probably not first-date conversation material. Still, he’s all about what kind of ring do I like – gold or platinum – where I’d like to go on honeymoon, etc etc.
Of course, when he wasn’t talking about marriage, he was going on about how his uncle is a manager at a local strip club and all about all the strippers he has dated etc etc. I eventually confronted him about this, and he told me he only mentioned those women to me because he wanted me to feel good about “being a nice person.” (Huh?)
He also travels a great deal in his profession – semi-retired military, but still somewhat involved in that, and also is an adventure tour guide and a security consultant.
I got the feeling early on when we were dating that he knew things about me I hadn’t told him. Sometimes he would let drop some bit of information I had only told one person, and over the phone, or via email. So, I eventually deduced he was tapping my phone and surveilling my email (I had no idea at first that he was doing this, and I’m not sure if he was working with Homeland Security or some other agency that doesn’t require a warrant for this sort of thing? ). Anyway, that made me feel really weird. He never openly confessed to doing this, but he didn’t exactly deny it either. He told me his ex-wife had an affair for two years before leaving him, and he never knew about it – it totally came out of nowhere and he promised himself he would never let that happen again.
So, here’s a guy with a transient lifestyle, questionable social skills, and an extremely self-sabotaging habit of surveilling his girlfriends, which shows he can never really trust a woman again, so that kind of precludes having a healthy, long-term intimate relationship.
If he really wanted to be married, wouldn’t he adopt some better habits?
Anyway, the moral of the story is:
1. From now on, I only join “matrimonial” sites, not “dating” sites. If you want a serious relationship, don’t join a site where “casual dating”, “friendship only”, “hang out”, “physical/intimate only” are among the options listed when you create your profile. Good sites for serious daters: setformarriage.com, marriagemindedpeoplemeet.com, Shaadi.com.
2. Consider your match’s actual lifestyle and habits. What they say they want may not, in reality, be what they are ready to have.
3. As far as the age thing, my bf was just 1 year older than I. It’s nice to date a guy with some of the same high school memories as you (we attended different, but rival schools in the same city). I generally prefer a 5 year age range too – either 5 years older or 5 years younger. I figure I will have more in common with someone close to the same age. The kids issue notwithstanding — people in their 30s and 40s may or may not already have kids and may or may not be in a hurry to have (more of) them — it’s nice to be with someone who doesn’t treat you like a child (i.e. much older men) or like a substitute mom (i.e. much younger men).
Christie Hartman 110
This guy's problem isn't his age. Most women are willing to date older men, especially if the age difference is under 10 years. If he's as great as he says he is and isn't getting responses, there's some other issue – he's doing something that's turning women off.
moon 111
Adam,
How ’bout a date?
moonsical
DN 112
He says he is looking to date a woman in her mid 30′s, so let’s say his youngest target age is 35…which means he is looking for a woman 7 years younger than himself. Is he willing to date a woman 7 years older? If not, then don’t complain about women who aren’t willing to make the same compromise.
I realize the crux of this post is that a man wants a younger woman if he wants to have his own biological children. True – but women have more options now and so we don’t have to look to older men as our only dating pool.
As another poster commented, a child should be the result of love between two people, not the ultimate end goal. If a child is your main goal, you can have one without a partner. Problem solved. But, if you want both a child and a partner then you may have to compromise.
But to me it seems like it all comes down to the fact that he isn’t finding what he wants within the parameters he’s set for himself. So Adam – as women are so often told to do – may have to adjust what he is looking for. He may have to look for a woman older than his target age range and take the risk that might mean fertility treatments or adoption.
Lanbee 113
I have to say that we are all missing the important point here…it’s not female fertility or youthful looks, it’s about love and wanting to spend a lifetime of marriage with someone you can truly connect with. If all you are looking for is someone who looks fantastic and younger than I am sorry, but that isn’t real at all…and it won’t last. You want something deeper and the world may tell you that superficiality is the way to go but you will never be happy if you chose to find a partner soley on fertility or youth. So, men who have said all they want is younger women don’t truley see women for what they are inside and won’t ever be able to be happy and truley connect because all they want is sex and I know that is not the ONLY thing that matters to you. Just because you are men doesn’t mean that is the only thing you want or need in this life. These men (who feel this way) will never be fullfilled and with a true lifelong companion. I tell you this now so you can change your destination before you go chasing down emptiness.
Adrienne 114
Here’s an idea – Don’t do online dating. Do Meetup.com instead. Example I’m in a group for ‘women 35 to 50′ – have been for 2 years. Joined when I turned 35. In the past 2 years we have expanded our circle/have an email list of men that we invite to our gatherings, joined up with other meetup groups for men, and just singles. It’s not about ‘dating’. It’s about meeting people in our age group that we can go out and have a great time with. However, many romances have bloomed via this way.
I know – old fashioned. Whoda thunk it – you don’t need to be online to date someone (I’ve never done the online thing – just not for me) – but you DO need a circle of women and men who bring friends to events that they can introduce you to. I’ve intro’d 3 couples that are still together this way. And met my current boyfriend via a connection made via a meetup at a private party.
Meetup is like ‘college’ all over again for people in their 30′s and 40′s that want to be out there, doing things, experiencing things – not sitting behind a laptop clicking names. You get another advantage – you are meeting age appropriate women (for your age group) AND you get the benefit of knowing you already share an interest in common activities.
Networking and socializing are an art form for sure – but it’s so critical when we are single at 35 and beyond to make sure we have a large circle of friends, are circulating, putting ourselves out there, taking care of our appearance, and putting our best selves forward so we CAN meet someone fabulous.
Never say dieeeeeeeeeeeee!
Cat 115
@Adrienne – You can do both online dating and Meetup.com. The latter is a great way to have hobbies and activities to talk about on your dating profile (and on dates!) There’s no reason to limit yourself to one or the other. What’s really great is that while you’re out with your Meetup group–perhaps not meeting that perfect guy–your online profile is chugging away 24/7 reaching as many people as possible. Just because you have a dating profile doesn’t mean you’re sitting at home. I’m usually at tango!
Tia 116
31 year old here, i have been dating older men for quite some time, thats what i seem to attract, and i guess you could say thats what i like. when i was 29 i was dating a 41 year old, now my current beau is 40. I don’t think that the 40 year old set is that much more inclined to want to settle down than the 30 year old set actually. sometimes the younger ones will take more risks because they have not “been through it” yet. Alot of the ones who are not married by 40s have serious reasons for this, be it social awkwardness, commitmentophobes, bad personalities , undateable for whatever reason.etc. iim not saying ALL by any means, but a considerable amount of them.
Not to mention if a man hasn’t been married by 40 his chances for ever tying the knot drop drastically, if we are to believe the studies?
Michael 117
First of all, this article is a matter of opinion. Katz does not speak for all women in general, and they all do not think the same. Single men in their 40′s is not old; they just have not found “Miss Right.” I firmly disagree with Katz because she failed to provide where she got her sources. Statistics show that women do prefer older men based on their maturity, financial stability, well experienced, and well settled in a home of their own. Older men are not likely to cheat, leave the wife at home alone, while he hangs out with his buddies, and play video games, etc. If Katz takes a good look around, she will find women that are married to men 10 or 20 years older then they are. What do younger women find in older men? Responsibility, financial security, able to make wise decisions, and must be able solve difficult situations in a marriage. And most importantly, older men are committed in having a lifelong relationship. Does Katz dare to challenge these facts?
Evan Marc Katz 118
@Michael – Oh yes, I dare. In fact, only 5% of all relationships involve a man who is more than 10 years older than the woman. As such, there are are lot more men who THINK they deserve a younger woman than actual younger women who WANT them. At no point do I speak for all women or men. I make generalizations because I must. Go on Match.com, see how many women are looking for men 20 years older, and you’ll have your answer.
Karl R 119
Michael said: (#117)
“I firmly disagree with Katz because she failed to provide where she got her sources.”
Evan is male, not female. The correct pronoun is “he.”
Michael said: (#117)
“Statistics show that women do prefer older men based on their maturity, financial stability, well experienced, and well settled in a home of their own.”
And your source for this is….
Kind of hypocritical for you to state that Evan is wrong because he doesn’t cite his source, yet you offer no source for your “statistics.”
OkCupid did a series of statistical studies on what their clients (male and female) preferred. If you look at the relevant chart, the majority of women capped their age preference at 6-8 years older than they were….
http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/the-case-for-an-older-woman/
The women under the age of 30 showed some tendency to pursue men older than themselves in preference to younger men (and by older/younger, I mean at least 1 year older or younger). Once they were in their 30s, there was a slight tendency to pursue younger men instead of older ones.
But if you have a study that shows otherwise, I’m interested in seeing it.
Selena 120
@117
I don’t know where you live Michael, but when I take a good look around I see mostly women who are married to men within 6 years of their own age, often less.
I’m not in any way suggesting there is anything wrong with larger age differences (I was in a relationship with someone 15 yrs. my senior for several years), but it has been my observation that the majority of women, of any age, do not prefer or seek out for partners men who are more than a decade older than themselves.
Ofcourse my observation is that of middle Americans. It doesn’t take into account the matches between multi-millionaires and models. Or men who solicit partnerships with women from other, perhaps less advantaged countries.
Zaq 121
Sorry Evan, I think you are wrong. Michael is correct. I am suspicious of the statistic you quote of 5%.
Let me say that in my social circle there are not just a few, but alot of marriages with a age difference of 10, 20 or 30 years.
If the figure of 5% includes those who have been in a long term relationship where they met while they were young, it is worthless.
We are only interested in those relationships that start when men are in their 40s and 50s. Fortunately a study has been done by I think AARP which if memory serves, showed that the average age difference of men marrying in their 40s was 7 years. In their 50s it was 10 years.
This was the average of ALL men, not rich men. Since this was the average, a significant proportion had age gaps more than this.
Frankly, this is the only statistic that counts because it shows who is SUCCESSFUL.
So OK Cupid finds that women are looking for a man a couple of years older – so what ? The same study showed that men were looking for women much younger. Women are extremely picky and they all want someone who is tall, dark, handsome, athletic, intelligent, educated, wealthy ….etc. Their chances of success is pretty close to nil.
There are speed dating studies that show that what women are attracted to is not necessarily what was on their wish list. Many women ARE attracted to older men – Michael is correct.
But perhaps Evan, you are honestly expressing the reality you see in this unreal world of online dating, where women are persuaded that actually they really do have a choice, and they can hold out for Prince Charming, and routinely dismiss men that in the real world are out of their league.
Evan Marc Katz 122
Unlike many people, Zaq, my loyalty is to the TRUTH, not what I believe. Here is the study (linked in a sidebar to a NYTimes article), which shows that the percentage of relationships where the man is 10 years older is about 7%.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/fashion/15women.html
Now stop your complaining that women are too picky and start dating a woman your own age, okay?
C. 123
I agree with Tia. In my experience, if a man is not married past his late 30s, he’s a commitment phobe. I’ve only dated one man close to a decade older than me. And he cheated on me. Same happened to my friend recently who was with an older guy for 3 years. I even know of a beautiful young leggy blond who was engaged to a guy 20 years older than her, and broke the engagement because he was cheating all over the place! So I don’t agree that older men are more mature or make better matches than guys closer to my own age.
Selena 124
@123
Anecdotally, I can say I don’t believe older men cheat less either.
Zaq 125
Well all I can say is ouch !
Evan, I have no doubt at all of your commitment to the truth, especially the problems you have in imparting that to those who do not want to listen. I see in your recent post the frustration in seeing people not being given the chance due to the dating criteria being applied online.
I know when people build a model of how the universe works in their minds, and use that as a blueprint to how they should live their lives, then it is very very difficult for them to change that view.
However, I personally have rejected a belief system at great personal cost when faced with reality, and I hope that I will continue to reject any view no matter how cherished, if it is incorrect.
So I am prepared to accept that the reality of the relationships I see around me may not be representative of the population as a whole.
As an aside, I should say I know a guy who is 5.5 and married to someone 10 years younger, so in the real world you do get a chance!
But, here’s the thing, you have to show the data that prove it.
The NY times article i have read before, but I didn’t look at the data. The percentage of ALL marriages where there is a 10 or more year age difference is 7%. But this includes all the twenty somethings whose age difference is only two years. If they are excluded the figure is going to be far higher than 7%.
I thought I should go back and recheck my sources, and I must say I am WRONG. There were TWO studies.
The first AARP study is called Lifestyles,Dating and Romance a study of midlife singles. This is a very in depth analysis of dating habits of those over 40 and shows that about 90% of the men wish to date younger women (Duh!), but more to the point near 60% succeeded in dating above 5 years younger, and a third had a current partner more than 10 years younger.
The second study is by Stanford University quote “In first marriages, men are typically a couple years older than women, but the older men are when they marry, and it doesn’t matter whether it’s a first or a second marriage, the more years they marry down. Men in their 40s tend to marry women who average seven years younger, and men in their 50s are marrying brides who average 11 years younger”
“They say the male ideal of beauty is found in women in their early 20s, and that ideal remains fixed for men no matter that they themselves are growing older. Women may be a little more indifferent to age than men are because they are not judging people as much on looks” – Paula England and research partner Elizabeth McClintock.
Ok Karl – you like to pick holes in this stuff – where am I wrong ?
Karl R 126
Zaq said: (#121)
“Fortunately a study has been done by I think AARP which if memory serves, …”
I’m not about to trust your memory. Please post a link or cite a published source.
Zaq said: (#121)
“Many women ARE attracted to older men – Michael is correct.”
According to US Census data, there are 4.0 million men who are 10 or more years older than their wives. That’s only 7.2% of the married men in the US.
For comparison, 32.4% were within one year of their wife’s age.
http://www.allcountries.org/uscensus/56_married_couples_by_differences_in_ages.html
Tia said: (#116)
“Not to mention if a man hasn’t been married by 40 his chances for ever tying the knot drop drastically, if we are to believe the studies?”
Again, what studies?
Percentage of men never married:
40 to 49 20.2%
50 to 59 14.1%
60 to 69 4.8%
70 on up 3.2%
See Table 3 (All Races)
http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/marr-div/2004detailed_tables.html
That seems to refute your claim. If there’s a study that supports your point of view, find it. I can’t.
Karl R 127
Zaq said: (#125)
“Ok Karl – you like to pick holes in this stuff – where am I wrong ?”
Thanks for naming one of your sources.
From Zaq’s AARP source:
“Most midlife and older men want to date younger women. Many midlife and older women, by choice or need, want to date younger men, ironically making men and women’s age preference in dates incompatible.”
Zaq said: (#125)
“near 60% succeeded in dating above 5 years younger, and a third had a current partner more than 10 years younger.”
Did you notice that they’re including men who are dating other men in those numbers?
Only 16% of the women were dating partners who were 5 or more years older. Only 6% of the women were dating partners who were 10 or more years older.
Does the Stanford study have a name?
C. 128
(yawn) All these studies and percentages and stats…who cares?!?
Zaq, having read a bunch of your posts, I think you are too concerned with data and proving a point..and I’m not even sure what your point is anymore.
Dating should be fun, not a math equation.
Zaq 129
C.
Yes you are right, it is boring. Science is boring to most people, but it deals with facts, not conjecture, not feelings.
Its important. Why do women reject most men at speed dating, but not the other way around ? “i need to feel chemistry” “If I wait, he will come”
“Of course the average man is 6 feet tall and earns 60k”
Feelings do not help us if they are at odds with reality
The whole point of this is that – the title is why don’t women in their 30s not want to date men in their 40s. Well the fact is that they do, and women in their late 30s are on average marrying men well into their 40s and even 50s – FACT
These scientists are not amateurs, and their studies are submitted for peer review. They will get savaged if they put a poor case forward. Their careers depend on this. Have some faith.
I just hate woolly thinking
I will now cease boring people. Karl, hint – the men are dating women in their 30s
C. 130
So Zaq, you’re saying that Evan should have just told the OP “you are wrong, because statistically, you are guaranteed to find a woman in her 30s who wants to marry you”? What good are “facts” if they don’t apply to your life? The OP was not having luck with younger women, so thats HIS reality. He can sit back and wait for a younger woman to drop in his lap or he could change his outlook on women his own age. If his only goal is to have children, well, he should have thought of that when HE was 32. You can’t just count on statistics and say “I deserve a younger woman cuz all these other guys got one”.
Same goes for me. I’m 31 and am totally open to these older guys who want children. But wanna know how many 35+ guys have shown interest in me in the past year? zero. How many guys *younger* than me have asked me out in the same period? Oh, at least a dozen.
So I’m not saying these scientists are wrong, I’m just saying these ‘facts’ don’t help my dating life whatsoever.
Karl R 131
Zaq, (#129)
While you could explain the difference by men in their 40s dating women in their 30s, that seems unlikely given the magnitude of the discrepancy. The range is 40 to 69, and 84% of the women are dating men less than 4 years older than them … which means almost all those men would be in the same range.
Want an alternate explanation? People (of both sexes) are lying about their age. For example, John and Jane are dating each other. Both take the survey. John tells the researchers that he’s 50 and his girlfriend is 40, so he’s put in the category of men dating women 10 years younger. Jane tells the researchers that she’s 45 and her boyfriend is 45, so she’s put in the category of women dating men the same age. Both of them were honest to the researchers; they just lied to each other.
We know people lie about their ages. Isn’t that a much simpler explanation of why there’s a huge difference between the two sexes?
JerseyGirl 132
I do not think that many people are lying about their ages.
I always try to pay attention to how men talk about older and younger women. This says alot about a man’s overall opinion of women. No younger woman stays young forever.
I never date men that are 40 and their age range is 18-35. I am well within this age range but I recongnize this for what it is. Now if he is 40 and says 25-45. Fine. These things matter in what type of man you end up with and how he views women in general.
Michael 133
@Evan — I must say that Match.com is a dating website, not a source based on statistical research nor is the New York Times. You asked me “How many women are looking for men 20 years older?” Well, I have looked on Match.com, and found that many of the women did not specify they will not date men 10 or 20 years older. However, some women will specify they will only date men in their 20′s, others will say between 30 and 40 years old. Again, as I said in my previous post “Women do prefer older men based on their maturity.” Why? Because women mature faster than men, and they prefer older men that is on the same maturity level. Get the picture? And one other note: No, you must not make generalization because you do not speak for everyone!
@Karl R. – OkCupid is not a statistical research based website. Apparently, it is more of an opinion thread. True, I did not post statistical figures on how many young women will not marry older men that are 10 or 20 years older. If I did that kind of research, I will have to poll the entire female population throughout the continental United States to obtain an exact figure. Evan’s figures are only based on a small group of people in a general location. If you think I am wrong, than you must be wrong as well. Younger women that I have come in contact with took an interest in me, and they knew my age which was no big deal, and I am 10 + years older than them. Why? Because women are interested in a man’s personality and level of maturity. A man in his early 20′s are not as mature then a man in his early or mid 30′s or 40′s, because they still have not decided on what they want to do in life; they are just beginning to live and learn the realities of life. But I respect your contructive criticism. Pleasure communicating with you on this website.
@Selena – May I ask you this question: Do you agree that women mature faster than men? If so, explain why younger women would prefer older men whose maturity level is equal to theirs? Ask any young woman which man is more mature — a 20 year old, or 30 to 40 years old? I can assure you they will say a 30 to 40 years old because women want security, financial stability, responsible, and settled in a home. This is based on facts not opinion. Yes, women have their preference, and I respect that. But women will not take a chance with a 20 year old that still acts irresponsibly. Facts show that young couples have a higher divorce rate. Compared to couples with a younger wife and older husband whose age gap ranges 10 + years apart, and their marriages do last much longer. But these statistical figures do change slightly, but remain the same on average.
Evan Marc Katz 134
Clearly, Michael, you want to believe this, so go ahead: write to all of those women who “did not specify they will not date men 10 or 20 years older” on Match.com, make your case to these women how they “should” prefer older men (according to YOUR anecdotal research), and let us know how it goes.
My strong guess is that your response will be incredibly low and that your protestations about the virtues about older men are simply wishful thinking.
Fact is: it doesn’t MATTER if you’re a better bet as a husband at age 47… Most women in their 20′s and 30′s want a peer, not a father figure. Whether you agree or not is immaterial.
Zaq 135
As Christie and others above have pointed out, he shouldn’t be having a problem. I’m saying the statistics show he shouldn’t be having a problem. I am concerned that the problem lies with the distorted reality that is on line dating.
Karl, all of the studies are saying the same thing. The census data referenced by Evan says the same, its just being misinterpreted.
Only 7% of married men are 10 years older than their wife. The temptation is to take the figure of 7% and interpret that to mean that for anyone of any age there is only a 7% chance of marrying someone 10 years younger. WRONG
I am now going to make the 7% a much bigger number.
Those of a nervous disposition look away now. No really, it may be boring!
So for those that are left, my first question is how many 30 year old men do you know who marry women 20 years younger than them.
The answer should be none. If it isn’t, then the authorities may be interested !
Of course, to date significantly younger, you have to be much older.
My guess, to marry 10 or 20 years younger we are looking at men in the 40s and 50s.
Well thats lucky because thats the demographic we are interested in.
But how many of those currently married of all ages were married when they were over 40 ? Not a high proportion me thinks. Lets say 10%, just for arguments sake.
That’s 5.6 mill. But there are 4 mill men who have a wife 10 or years younger, and they have to be in this group – 70% of them
Eh viola ! The only tiny number becomes a very big one !
Ok Im a little out but stanford figures are clearly, and lets face it unsurprisingly dead balls accurate.
I rest my case
Zaq 136
Michael, I have no doubt Evan is right. He is the expert on on line dating. In Evans on line dating book (yes Evan I read it!) He thinks 35 is the magic age.
Women want men with status, and they would like it in a younger package. Well there’s not many of them, and those that are have been snapped up, or are not ready to settle down.
In the non online world women can see that, and they will go for the next best thing – and its not younger men with low status.
I think women are tricked into believing they have far more options in online dating
A-L 137
Thanks, Karl, for all of your research. It’s nice to let someone else do it!
RE: Michael
A 30 year old woman would probably prefer a 40 year old man to a 20 year old man, for the reasons you stated. But she’d probably prefer a 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, or 39 year old before taking that 40 year old, with all other things being equal. Most of these guys in this age range are more commitment-minded, financially stable, responsible, mature, etc. And they have more in common with the woman due to their closer age, and they’re probably in better shape than the 40 year old too. Unless a man is wealthy (and shares his wealth), famous, and/or powerful, it’s unlikely that he’ll marry a woman who is 10+ years younger than him, much less 20+.
RE: Zaq
I agree with you that the OP shouldn’t be having a problem. If he’s looking for women 35-42 (probably more like 35-38) he’s only 4-7 years older than the woman. According to Karl’s statistics, more than a fourth of marriages have that age range. So there’s bound to be people interested in him. The fact that they’re not means he’s doing something seriously wrong. But as far as the rest of your commentary, I think Karl has the right end of it.
Karl R 138
Zaq said: (#135)
“to date significantly younger, you have to be much older.
My guess, to marry 10 or 20 years younger we are looking at men in the 40s and 50s.”
And they suddenly stop dating younger when they hit 60?
http://assets.aarp.org/rgcenter/general/singles_1.pdf
Look at the data. Over 50% of the men are dating 5 or more years younger. Less than 20% of the women are dating 5 or more years older. That means approximately 60% of the men who are dating younger would have to be weighted into the youngest end of the range (and it’s a 30 year age range). In order to explain the discrepancy, the women have to suddenly stop dating older when they hit 40, and the men have to suddenly stop dating younger as they hit the 55-60 range.
As the AARP study said:
“Most midlife and older men want to date younger women.”
In order for the study to be accurate, only the middle aged men could be dating younger in significant numbers. The older men would have to be dating close to their own age.
Ockham’s Razor:
“The popular interpretation of this principle is that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. However, this is often confused, as the ‘simple’ “is really referring to the theory with the fewest new assumptions.”
Common Corollary:
“The simplest explanation is probably the correct one … unless the simplest explanation violates human nature.”
My explanation (see #131, people lie about their age) is the simplest one, it follows human nature, and it fits the known facts.
Zaq’s explanation requires men to date younger (in significant numbers) in their 40s and 50s, but stop dating younger in their 60s. It fits the known facts, but it requires more assumptions and violates human nature.
If you are in your 40s and 50s and you can regularly date women 10-20 years younger than you, it doesn’t matter what the statistics say. Go ahead and do what works for you.
However, the data suggests to me that a lot of men get to date that young because the men lied about their age … and they’re actually getting women who lied about their age, instead of women who are that young.
Michael said: (#117 & #133)
“women do prefer older men based on their maturity,”
Rita Rudner (comedienne) quote:
“Well, the old theory was ‘Marry a older man because they’re more mature’. But the new theory is ‘Men don’t mature — marry a young one’.”
Michael,
You might want to find out what women think of your notion before you count on it working in your favor.
Joe 139
Well, you know there are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
BeenThereDoneThat 140
Just my thought: an older guy who wants to date someone 20 years younger isn’t that mature; in fact, he seems fairly shallow.
I’ve never found age to reliably show stability or maturity.
Cat 141
I’ve met quite a few of those older men who married much younger women… and then were dumped by them after five or ten years. Now they’re divorced, back on the dating scene, even older, typically childless (just because she’s younger doesn’t mean she can or will have your kids!) And these guys are still chasing what they couldn’t hold on to before…
Oh, and they’re usually far poorer because they either put the much younger woman through college or fixed her teeth, etc… Now they’re paying her alimony while she starts her new life in her early 30′s.
Just my anecdotal two cents
You can pursue someone much younger. You might even catch them. But how long will you keep them?
Zaq 142
Look Karl forget the AARP study – frankly, I don’t know why you feel the need to try to pull apart studies done by professional statisticians.
The Stanford study was undertaken by demographic specialists using, one assumes data from marriage records.
Lying ? Yeah right
Another thing, unlike some around here , the two young women involved didn’t have an axe to grind. They had no idea why older men were succesful with younger women, and reported as much.
But facts are facts.
Karl R 143
Zaq said: (#142)
“The Stanford study was undertaken by demographic specialists using, one assumes data from marriage records.”
What’s the name of the Stanford study? (Better yet, post the URL.) If it proves your point, I’d love to look at it.
Zaq said: (#142)
“I don’t know why you feel the need to try to pull apart studies done by professional statisticians.”
Joe said: (#139)
“Well, you know there are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”
That’s a little over-simplified, but you get the general idea.
More to the point, the surveys and statistics are usually representative of the truth, but the conclusions that people draw out of them are gross misrepresentations of the information provided.
Selena 144
@Michael #113
I agree that females may mature earlier than males – in puberty and adolescence. In adulthood, it is more a matter of individuals and the assessment on the part of other individuals. What you may deem immaturity, a 20-something may not. And vice versa.
Personally I’ve found “immature” individuals in every decade of life.
Michael 145
Yes, Zag, Evan is a dating expert, but he is basing his studies on his own observations in the online dating field. Karl gives me data which is helpful to a certain extent, but if we all look at the numbers carefully. We will find those younger women married to older men that are 10 + years apart, excluding those that are just living together. Of course the age disparity will be smaller, but I am not going to sit in front of my computer and throw numbers around with other people because everyone has their own opinion, and I respect that.
Evan believes that I do not stand a chance in dating a younger woman that is 10 + years younger than me. Secondly, unlike some men, I never said that I am deserving of a younger woman or that I am a better choice for a younger woman. That is ridiculous for me to think that way, and I do not expect it!
Rita said “I might want to find out what women think about my notion before being counted on in my working favor.” Rita, I do not have to ask what women are thinking. It is offensive to tell a man he is too old to date or marry a younger woman and vise versa. It is fair to say that women have their preference in who they want to date regardless of age. If there is a chemistery working well between two people — more power to them!
Having said that. I hope Evan, and all you good people on this website will eventually come to some kind of consensus on this issue of dating, and stop being one sided. Other than that, I am not interested in arguing over something ridiculous because it is not worth my time.
Evan, you are entitled to your own opinion, and I respect that. So, I would appreciate that you respect my opinion, and the same goes for everyone else on this website. Thank you for allowing me to express my opinion on your website. This concludes this discussion!
Selena 146
“This concludes this discussion!”
It’s that kind of paternalistic attitude that turns younger women off older men. They already have a dad.
Karl R 147
Zaq, (#142)
I’m pretty certain I found the abstract to the Stanford University research you keep referring to.
From the abstract:
“Using data on marriages collected in most US states between 1970 and 1988,”
http://econpapers.repec.org/article/blapopdev/v_3a35_3ay_3a2009_3ai_3a4_3ap_3a797-816.htm
Therefore, those numbers you have been using were accurate 22 to 40 years ago. The study might not accurately reflect the current trends in marriages.
Selena 148
Not to mention the economic status of women may have changed quite a bit in those 22 to 40 years.
C. 149
#140 and #146
Exactly!!!! Brava!!!
Michael 150
@Selena — “Paternalistic,” great word! But I am not old-fashion, and you took my comment “This concludes this discussion,” out of contexts, and I was not directing it at women. When I say “This concludes this discussion,” it means I am finish debating on what I have say on the issue of dating. If you feel turned-off by it. I am sorry you feel that way. The fact is I am a man with a big heart, and I have helped alot people I know, and I am a generous person, and I enjoy sharing my passions with people. If you want to know something about me — ask, and do not pass judgement. The reason why you and everyone listens to Evan, because many of you are intimediated with the fact that he is an expert. There are many experts in this world that claim their findings are correct, but that does not mean their claims cannot be disputed. So, the question to you is do all Scientists agree with one another on every scientific issue? I do not think so. The reason why Evan has a problem with my comments, because he believes that he is always correct and everyone else is wrong, but I respect his opinion.
Selena, as you are aware. Some younger women are so narrow minded in believing that older men in their 40′s are too old, old-fashion, have no energy to keep up with their younger counterparts, and not up-to-date on current events is totally false! I am in my early 40′s, and I can run circles around those younger then me, because I take care of my health — mentally and physically. True, I may not be able to do certain physical activities, but that does not mean I should give up on things I enjoy the most in life. Oh, and one more thing, I do not sit around at home!
Cat 151
#150, Michael, “he believes that he is always correct and everyone else is wrong”–I think you’re actually talking about yourself instead of Evan. In my experience, when Evan’s wrong, he’s the first to admit it. I’d like him to be wrong more often so I wouldn’t have to change anything about me or the way I date!
That’s why people get upset with him. Change–and admitting the need to–is tough!
Zaq 152
“Yes, Zag, Evan is a dating expert, but he is basing his studies on his own observations in the online dating field.” – Michael
That is quite correct, and yes thats why Evan’s advice mainly relates to online dating. As you and I know, it is not representative of what happens in the real world.
As I said before, my my own experience led me to believe that the 5% figure was not true. On line dating does not work well for men. The dating sites do not want people to be matched, they want people to remain members for years on end. I wait for the day they advertise ” We guarantee you will meet someone in the next 6 months – OR YOUR MONEY BACK”
Online, men have little opportunity to show how awesome they are. Join social groups where the women are forced to interact with you, and watch their 100 point checklist drop to the floor.
However, there will not be many SINGLE women.
Ojh and another statistic. 50% of women over 60 are not married, but only 1 in 6 men. No its not down to longevity. Yes Karl, men over 60 do marry younger women !
Selena 153
@Michael #150
But you weren’t finished debating were you?
And I’m not intimidated by fact Evan is an expert – if my posts on his blog the last 3 yrs. are anything to go by.
The way you emphatically tried to stop any further discussion bemused me because I could see how an older man might use that technique to “get his way” with a younger partner. “What I say goes Brandi, no further discussion about it is necessary!” And illustrates Evan’s point that younger women want a peer, not a father figure.
I never suggested you sit around at home – where did you get that?
I’m sure you have plenty of positive things to offer in the way of being a partner Michael, so why the insistance that older men (meaning you)
are a better match for younger women? Are you perhaps intimidated by your female peers? ‘Cause I’ll tell you, I’m in my 40′s and that “This concludes this discussion!” would never fly with me. Dad.
Karl R 154
Michael said: (#150)
“The reason why you and everyone listens to Evan, because many of you are intimediated with the fact that he is an expert.”
A lot of the regulars on this blog (including Selena and me) have openly disagreed with Evan before. We do that when we believe he’s wrong. Similarly, if we disagree with you, it’s because we think you’re wrong.
Michael said: (#150)
“Some younger women are so narrow minded in believing that older men in their 40′s are too old, old-fashion, have no energy to keep up with their younger counterparts, and not up-to-date on current events is totally false!”
You’re right. So what?
Instead of complaining that the situation isn’t fair, why don’t you find a woman in her mid-to-late forties who takes care of herself mentally and physically, who keeps up-to-date with current events, and who can run circles around you? (Unless you run marathons, do iron man competitions or do P-90X, I know several women who meet those criteria.)
starthrower68 155
I think, at least I hope, we all intelligent enough to know that we tend to speak in generalities here anyway because we can’t possibility speak to and anticipate every single individual situation. There are immature older men and immature younger men. Conversely there are mature older and younger men. The same is true of women. And I would submit that once two people find the partner they believe is the one and they care about the health and quality of that relationship, they will grow as they need to and allow the same of the other person as they need to to keep the relationship in tact. So really, what is being argued is all academic anyway.
Evan Marc Katz 156
@Zaq. I am a dating coach who works primarily with smart, strong, successful women. My advice, if you look around the 500 posts on this blog do not relate “mainly” to online dating. I refer to online dating as a means to create opportunity when “real life” doesn’t present enough dates, which, for 95% of my readers, it does not.
Online dating DOES work well for men, if only you know what you’re doing. The problem is that you complain and complain about how unfair it is without doing anything differently. I suggest you pick up a copy of Finding the One Online and tell me if online dating STILL doesn’t work for you afterwards.
http://www.evanmarckatz.com/products/finding-the-one-online2.html
C. 157
Zaq, you never answered my question. If the statistics don’t match my reality, your reality, or the OPs reality, than what do the statistics matter?
If your point is that statistically older men go well with much younger women (your claim), and you are frustrated that this hasn’t happened to you yet, well, you can either take Evan’s advice and change your outlook on women closer to your age..or you can ignore the advice and keep waiting for that hot 29 year old. But you may be waiting forever.
Karl R 158
Zaq said: (#152)
“Ojh and another statistic. 50% of women over 60 are not married, but only 1 in 6 men. No its not down to longevity.”
Are you pulling these numbers out of thin air, or do you actually have a source?
US Census, click the link and [search for 2004 for Table 3]
http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/marr-div/2004detailed_tables.html
26% of the men 60 and up are unmarried. That’s 1 in 4.
53% of the women 60 and up are unmarried.
Of those women, 36% have been widowed and are not remarried. That’s longevity.
I just ran some quick calculations. If the men in the 70+ category are married (on average) 2 years, 9 1/2 months younger, that correlates with the number of unmarried women in the 70+ age category. If I also assume that the men in the 60-69 age category are married (on average) 3 1/2 years younger, that correlates with the number of unmarried women in the 60-69 age category.
Caveat: this is based on census data from 2004, so it’s several years out of date.
Karl R 159
Oops. Found a couple math errors in my statistics.
36% of the total population of women who are 60+ were widowed and remained unmarried. That’s 78% of the unmarried women.
And my average age for marrying down in the 70+ category is a little off. Since it’s an open-ended category (and heavily influenced by longevity), I can’t nail down an equivalence in years. It’s less than 5 years, but I can’t nail it down better than that without more granulated data.
Selena 160
@#158
But far less out of date compared to data collected 1970 -1988.
C. 161
“Caveat: this is based on census data from 2004, so it’s several years out of date.”
I’d be willing to bet that there are even less couples today where the man is 10+ years older, since women have gained more equality and don’t need to rely on “daddy” type husbands.
Michael 162
@Selena — I never said I wanted to be a younger woman’s father figure nor did I say older men are a better match for younger women. You also say that I am intimedated by peers which is false. What gave you that inclination?
@Karl — I will pick and choose any woman I am interested in regardless of age. You sir, are being ridiculous by making personal attacks instead of attacking the issues that are being discuss on this website. Secondly, I am not complaining. Your problem is that you are not an independent thinker, and Evan is doing all the thinking for you and everyone on this website. I also have every right to challenge Evan’s observations on the issue of dating, and he does not have all the answers nor does he speak for everybody. It is wrong when people like Evan make generalizations about others in society. As I said in my previous posts, that I respect Evan’s opinion. And yes, Karl, we all have the right to disagree.
Selena 163
Michael,
You didn’t say that older men are a match for younger women? Perhaps you should go back read post #117.
Karl R 164
Michael said: (#162)
“I will pick and choose any woman I am interested in regardless of age.”
Michael said: (#150)
“Some younger women are so narrow minded in believing that older men in their 40′s are too old, old-fashion, have no energy to keep up with their younger counterparts, and not up-to-date on current events is totally false!”
You can choose “any woman” you are interested in regardless of age, BUT some of the younger women aren’t interested in being chosen by you because they’re “so narrow minded”.
It may just be my opinion, but I would say that you can’t pick and choose a woman who isn’t interested in you. And if there are a significant number of younger women who aren’t interested in you (for any reason, justified or not), then you may have more success in picking and choosing from the women your age and older.
Michael said: (#162)
“It is wrong when people like Evan make generalizations about others in society.”
Generalizations made by Michael about society:
“Older men are not likely to cheat, leave the wife at home alone, while he hangs out with his buddies, and play video games, etc.”
“older men are committed in having a lifelong relationship.”
“women mature faster than men, and they prefer older men that is on the same maturity level.”
“A man in his early 20′s are not as mature then a man in his early or mid 30′s or 40′s, because they still have not decided on what they want to do in life; they are just beginning to live and learn the realities of life.”
Why is it acceptable for you to make sweeping generalizations if it’s wrong for everyone else to?
Regarding personal attacks:
You said, “many of you are intimediated” about the regular readers.
You said, “Evan has a problem with my comments, because he believes that he is always correct and everyone else is wrong,”
You said, “You sir, are being ridiculous” about me.
You said, “Your problem is that you are not an independent thinker,” about me.
You said, “Evan is doing all the thinking for you and everyone on this website.”
You have dished out personal attacks against Evan, Selena, me, young women in general and every reader on this website. If you want us to respect you, start by treating us with respect.
Selena 165
Karl, you got me dyin’ laughing here. Thanks.
Michael 166
@Karl and Selena — Karl you said you want respect? Are you seriously intererted in a civil conversation? Than let us stop feuding and make an effort to understand each others’ point of view. Yes, I have made some personal attacks, and I have dished out some personal attacks from you and Selena, and I do apologize, and I mean it! Selena, you can continue to laugh all you want, but I am not affected by it. You said your not done debating the issue of dating in your previous post and I do not understand why you wish continue. But I will tell you why I do not wish to continue this debate, because we are getting no where in resolving our differences. If you, like Karl, want me to respect you, please do the same in return.
Having said that, I hope you both understand who I am as a person and where I stand on the issues of dating. Do I want to be your friend? Yes! But friendship has its ups and downs, and it is a relationship that is earn through respecting each other and I am confident that you both will agree with me on this matter. Again, I do apologize, and I appreciate you both for understanding!
Sayanta 167
Karl, that was amazing- I’m dyin’ laughing with Selena.
Michael, WHY are you so set against women your own age?
Michael 168
@Sayanta — I never said that I am against women my own age. Did you read any of my posts? Allow me to explain, if two people are in love and want to spend the rest of their lives together. Should age know no bounds? No, I am not saying a man should have a relationship with a teenage girl. I am talking about a woman. My late Grandfather was 17 years older then my late Grandmother when they married sometime in the early 1920′s, and both had 8 children together. So, why you are laughing after I have apologized to Karl and Selena? You are not helping the situation.
Selena 169
Michael go back and read my post #120. I told you for several years I had a partner who was 15 yrs. my senior. At the time we met he was 52 and I was 37. We found we related well to each other and I think it was mainly because we were in similar stages of life – I had a son when I was 22, he had his first child when he was 40. As I got to know him, the age difference didn’t matter to me, but I was also in early middle age myself. I can tell you I would not have felt the same way if I met him when I was in my 20′s and early 30′s – I would have felt 15 yrs. was too great a gap. Now, I also feel that 15 yrs. is a a big gap because someone 15 yrs. my senior is in a different stage of life than I am at this time. I could ofcourse feel differently if I got to know someone that age as I did before, but I would prefer a partner closer to my own age – say within 7 yrs. either direction. One of the reasons for this is the likeliness of widowhood.
This is what Evan, Karl, I, as well as the majority of women who have wrote on this blog have been trying to tell you: you can come up with all the reasons you want why younger women should prefer older men, but that does not change the fact that most women, of any age, prefer for partners men who are closer to their own age, at least within a decade.
If you want a partner, someone who “gets” you, you will likely be more successful if you keep that in mind. Start writing/striking up conversations with single women within a decade of your own age both older and younger and see what happens. If you prefer women much younger than yourself, first of all be honest with yourself about why that’s so; and secondly accept that you might never actually get one and be comfortable with that.
A-L 170
Michael,
You say that people are allowed to have differing opinions. So, short of changing their views on this subject, what would you need to see to consider commenters like Karl and Selena respectful? In my opinion they’re continuing to make their points and refuse to capitulate to your world view. I fail to see how they’re being disrespectful though.
Karl R 171
Michael said: (#166)
“Karl you said you want respect?”
No, I did not say that.
Two times you have claimed to respect Evan’s opinion, but in the same breath you put words in his mouth and insulted him. If that’s the way you treat people you respect, I want no part of it.
I’ll settle for the bare minimum of civility needed for a debate:
Don’t insult people.
Don’t insult people’s intelligence.
Don’t presume to know what other people think or feel.
Don’t misquote other people.
Michael said: (#166)
“Having said that, I hope you both understand who I am as a person and where I stand on the issues of dating.”
I have no idea who you are as a person, and very little idea of where you stand on the issues of dating.
Michael said: (#168)
“Allow me to explain, if two people are in love and want to spend the rest of their lives together. Should age know no bounds?”
Is this an example of where you stand on the issues of dating?
If two adults want a relationship, regardless of the age difference, that’s fine with me (and with most of the other people on this blog). However, this line of discussion arose from one man asking why younger women (in their 30s) didn’t want to date him (in his 40s).
I used to be in an exclusive relationship with a woman 11 years younger than me. I’m currently in a serious relationship with a woman 16 years older than me. I could have been in a relationship with a woman 21 years younger than me, except I’m not interested in dating someone who is that young. People of different ages date; all of us are aware of that.
But you have called younger women (in their 30s) “narrow minded” when they did not want to date men in their 40s. Are you (as a man in his 40s) interested in dating women in their 50s?
If you have dated women who were 10+ years older than you, you probably are more open minded than men and women who won’t. If you haven’t dated women who were 10+ years older than you, I can’t see how you’re any more open minded than the other men and women who refuse to date people that much older than them.
Michael said to Sayanta: (#168)
“So, why you are laughing after I have apologized to Karl and Selena?”
She was laughing because I was funny.
Karl R 172
Selena said: (#169)
“I would prefer a partner closer to my own age – say within 7 yrs. either direction. One of the reasons for this is the likeliness of widowhood.”
I’m curious about your outlook on widowhood. I can understand why you think about it. Since my girlfriend is 16 years older than me (and I tend to take the long view), I’ve thought about it a bit too.
The way I see it, if we get married (which seems highly likely), there are three possible outcomes: I can end up as a divorcee, a widower or a corpse. All three of those options suck. If I marry someone who is my age, I face the same three outcomes. The only thing that changes is the probability of one happening over the other.
You always think things through carefully. What are you seeing differently?
Helen 173
Karl R, the probability of anyone ending up as a corpse is 100%.
What you probably mean is, which of these 3 outcomes is most likely to happen first?
My colleagues who do research at the junction of geriatric care and behavioral economics agree that people want to END on a happy note, as much as possible. They would rather have many of the years preceding their death be mediocre and then maybe a last year of bliss, than many years of bliss followed by a last year of sadness and despair. To that end, they have found that many people state a preference for dying before their spouse, so that they can be with someone (their loved one) and not alone at the end of their lives.
Selena 174
No, I see it the same way you do Karl. That’s why I wrote I could feel differently if I got to know someone much older as I did before (and as you did) - you love who you love. I would prefer a 7 yr. age difference simply because the odds are a bit better I would spend less yrs as a widow than if I chose (again) someone 15 yrs. older than me. Preference is just that, it’s not an absolute.
I could say I prefer a partner who looked like Johnny Depp, but the odds are I won’t find one, so I try to keep my preferences more realistic. I fancy that I would be more comfortable with a working man in his 40′s or 50′s than I would be with a retired man in his 60′s who spent his days on the golf course when he wasn’t insistent on going with me to the grocery store for something to do.
But it’s difficult enough to find someone you really connect with, so if you find that – with someone of any age – you are fortunate. And there is never any guarantee how long a relationship will last, no matter what your age.
Goldie 175
Re: Adrienne’s comment #114 re:Meetup.com. Ahhh, BTDT. I joined a meetup group last year, and another one recently, both related to my hobbies/interests. Went out a few times with a guy from group #1, things went bad and I had to break it off – this was two months ago and I haven’t shown my face in group #1 since, and probably won’t until at least next year. I just think it will be an incredibly awkward situation if he and I both show up at a meetup. This is a real bummer, because I had a great time being in the group, made a few friends, and miss being there. So, when a guy from group #2 asked me out, I said no – I don’t want to lose this second group, too!
Not to mention that, once you’ve dated one person in a meetup group, the way I see it, all other men in that same group are off – otherwise you’ll look very strange, going through your teammates one at a time.
Bottom line, not sure how to make meetup.com work as a dating resource. Same with RL friends. I have a lot of male friends, quite a few of them single, but I’m afraid of getting involved with them for fear of losing a friend or a whole group of friends. Again, bummer, because they’re great guys. If anyone has any positive experience, feel free to share, though it would probably be OT on this thread.
Goldie 176
Typo in prev comment – “all other men in that same group are off-limits to you”, not “off” – got distracted mid-sentence – adult ADD, gotta love it
Karl R 177
Helen said: (#173)
“people want to END on a happy note, as much as possible. They would rather have many of the years preceding their death be mediocre and then maybe a last year of bliss,”
I don’t study geriatrics, but my impression of the aging process is a bit different:
You spend years getting old, which has its share of annoyances.
You spend about a year dying, which sucks for you and your spouse.
You’re dead, and your spouse spends a year or two grieving, which sucks for them.
The year of bliss doesn’t magically happen, especially near the end. Grab the bliss while you can.
If there’s an afterlife you may be able to pick up some additional bliss as a denouement, but that’s independent of this decision.
Helen said: (#173)
“many people state a preference for dying before their spouse, so that they can be with someone (their loved one) and not alone at the end of their lives.”
That part seems obvious and understandable … and also selfish. If you’re dead, then your spouse is the one with the loneliness, sadness and despair. By marrying someone who is younger, you’re just shifting the probability of which person get the worst part.
I suppose you can get lucky and die simultaneously. My grandparents died three hours apart … as victims of a double homicide. Since I can non-facetiously consider them “lucky” to be victims of a homicide, that reinforces my view that the end is lousy for everyone. The lousy part is so unavoidable that efforts to get around it seem ludicrous.
Helen said: (#173)
“which of these 3 outcomes is most likely to happen first?”
“They would rather have many of the years preceding their death be mediocre”
In terms of behavioral economics, this seems like the worst decision possible. If I choose the years of mediocrity, I boost the probability of becoming a divorcee (which is high probability for most couples from the start). Not only do I get years of mediocrity, but I still end up alone at the end of it.
To me, divorce seems like the most avoidable (and most unnecessary) outcome. Therefore, it’s the one I should focus on avoiding.
Selena said: (#174)
“No, I see it the same way you do Karl.”
“it’s difficult enough to find someone you really connect with, so if you find that – with someone of any age – you are fortunate.”
True. I wasn’t trying to date 16 years older.
Helen’s information is interesting, but it mostly reinforces my opinion that the average person doesn’t think things through. I know you think things through, so if we had differed greatly in opinion, it would mean I’d overlooked something. (Helen, you also think things through. Feel free to chime in with your personal opinion as well.)
Selena said: (#174)
“I would prefer a 7 yr. age difference simply because the odds are a bit better I would spend less yrs as a widow than if I chose (again) someone 15 yrs. older than me.”
True. I did consider the possibility that we’d have a different perspective as a man/woman. My girlfriend’s father and uncle are remarried widowers. Because women outnumber men 3:1 in the 70+ age range, men have an easier time finding someone after the death of a spouse.
I don’t see being a widower as a “for the rest of my life” kind of situation. There will be some bad years if she dies before me, but I’ve been through bad years before. I’ll survive.
Selena 178
I’d also like to add that I live/ have lived in towns with large over-65 populations and widow/widowhood is not necessarily the horrible, lonely state younger people imagine it to be. I believe it’s important at any age to have friends, interests, activities and to be comfortable with yourself – for you could find yourself single at any time.
My age preference is in part because if I do find another partner, it’s a little later in life and I’d like to hope for more than a few years with him after it taking so long for us find each other. The marriage that lasts 40-50 years is very unlikely for me at this point.
Karl R 179
Goldie said: (#175 & 176)
“once you’ve dated one person in a meetup group, the way I see it, all other men in that same group are off – otherwise you’ll look very strange, going through your teammates one at a time.”
I’ve never been in a meetup group, but I can’t see that it would be much different from the dance community. In the last two years I dated six different women in the dance community, including my current girlfriend (she’s friends with one of them, has met a couple others, and would recognize the rest on sight). At least two of those ladies have dated around as much as I have.
A lot of it depends on the size of the group, and how rapidly you date them. It’s one thing to date six people out of 200. It’s another if it’s six out of 20. The guys who have hit on every available woman in the group (which is possible even in a group of 200) and hit on every new woman when they walk in the door … they get a poor reputation. I might have asked another woman out every 2 to 4 months, and I was clearly selective about it. It never hurt my reputation.
One guideline that’s very important: don’t badmouth your ex-dates inside of the group. Unless his behavior is criminal or dangerous, other people don’t need to know.
Goldie said: (#175)
“things went bad and I had to break it off [...] I just think it will be an incredibly awkward situation if he and I both show up at a meetup.”
If it’s a bad breakup, it can be. If you just date a few times, things don’t work out, and everybody is mature about it, the only awkwardness is in your mind.
Last Friday my girlfriend went to a dance party. Two women who I’d previously dated were there. I danced with them, just as I had many times before. One of them is having a birthday soon. Her boyfriend has invited my girlfriend and I to the party.
It’s possible to have very positive experiences.
Helen 180
Karl R, thanks for the compliment. Here are my blunt thoughts on the topic of age difference, widowhood, and intertemporal choice (the behavioral economics term for preferring a “happy ending”):
Love is rarely purely unselfish. Yes, it is selfish to hope you’ll die before your spouse so that you don’t have to suffer your last years alone, but that is just the nature of the beast, so I don’t criticize the elderly subjects of these studies for feeling this way.
Your comment about how mediocre years before a happy ending can lead to divorce presupposes that the relationship is mediocre. I don’t mean to downplay marriage (because indeed, it’s wonderful), but once you get married, you realize that MANY other things, not just the marriage, can make life mediocre or happy or unhappy. Other important players are health, jobs, money, children, other family, friends, and recreational activities.
I would suspect that most people don’t marry with much consideration of who will die first. We tend to think far more about life than death.
Selena makes the good point that what matters more than an absolute number, as far as age difference, is that two people are in roughly the same stage of life. If you plan to keep working, you might not want to marry someone who just retired, and vice versa; even if that person is the same age as you. On the other hand, if you both have stable jobs and are looking to start a family, it might not matter if your age gap is 20 years.
For what it’s worth, Dan Savage has a numerical formula for May-December relationships that states, among other things, that the age of the younger person should not be less than 1/2 the older person’s age plus 7. By this rule, if you’re 60, the lower age limit of a person with whom you could form a “healthy” relationship would be 37. Not sure how he formulated this rule…
Joe 181
The half-plus-seven years rule-of-thumb is old school, and I’m certain it predates Dan Savage.
Selena 182
I don’t understand the 1/2 plus 7 rule. How many 37 yr. olds, male or female are interested in a 60 yr. old partner?
Joe 183
It only works for lower age ranges, say 40 and below.
Helen 184
Actually, that age gap applies to our friends. They got married when he was 28 and she was 51 (yes, indeed!). According to that rule, it wouldn’t have worked out – but it’s 9 years later and he is 37 and she is 60, and they are still happily together. I will say that she has a delightful, enthusiastic personality and an amazing figure.
Sara Malamud 185
There is no rule and I know many women in their thirties who would date even older. Maybe those ones you are talking about didn’t want to date YOU. Keep trying, you may be surprised. All the best! Sara Malamud
vicki 186
A simple solution for anyone trying to date someone their *own* age is: change the subject line of your classified ad or dating profile to state up front that you seek a SM or a SF under age ___. So, if you don’t want to date someone more than 5 years older than yourself, and you are 35, set that limit at 40. You will probably get emails from men (or women) who are 41 or 42. If that is not acceptable, change the number to 38 that way you’re actually going to receive messages from singles ages 39 and 40 which is more along the lines of what you wanted anyway. Stating a strong age preference simply and up front keeps everyone from wasting their time. Also, I found that I actually received *more* responses from men in the *right* age categories when I stated it up front. I can speculate that men a couple of years younger than I hesitated to contact me because they thought I would reject anyone even a little bit younger (not true, my ideal range has always been within 5 years of my own age, up or down). Once I stated my upper age limit up front, I got massive amounts of responses from men just the right ages for me. Now, I don’t know if this necessarily works the same way for the guys, but for women, I know this works. It is also more straightforward than just saying you want someone “youthful” or “about the same age” since most guys will read this as “she believes you’re as young as you feel” or “she doesn’t really care that much about the age difference thing”. Guys do best with straightforward, direct information, that reads like a technical manual or something. Don’t be vague.
I wrote lots of personal ads, but the only ones that attracted really good dates in the right age range were the ones I wrote with an upper limit age stated clearly in the subject line. I used Craigslist, I use Plentyoffish, I used Match.com and Yahoo personals. I met my boyfriend through a very carefully worded ad on Craigslist, that had my upper limit age preference stated in the subject line. He’s cute, his kids are grown but he’s open to the idea of having another child with me (if it’s not too late – I’m turning 42 this year), and he’s a scant 18 months older than I am. To top it off, we both like science fiction movies, Twilight and Harry Potter. He’s also a well-traveled, multple-degreed paratrooper in the Army, and he’s a great kisser!
JACKPOT!
vicki 187
@ Karl R and @Selena
I hear you on the subject of widowhood. My great uncle who passed away in the early 1980s left a widow who survived him for nearly 20 years. She never stopped grieving. For 20 years, I would see her at family reunions and she would break down on my shoulder in tears describing how much she missed him. I vowed that I would NEVER marry a man who was that much older than I am, or whose family had a history of heart disease or early death from some sort of predictable, inherited condition.
Of course, I’m sure widowhood is great if you hated your husband’s guts. I don’t recommend marrying someone you hate just so your Golden Years without him will be more enjoyable, but I would also be really careful about giving my heart away to someone who will likely die 20 or more years before I will. I’ve seen up close how miserable it is to outlive an *adored* spouse by that many years, and I would try to avoid that outcome at any cost.
Staring Down 40 188
You can’t base love off a potential life span. You never know when the person you love is going to be taken away from you. Sure if you’re with someone a few decades older you have a better idea, but it can happen at any time. The love of my life passed away 2 1/2 years ago at the age of 40 from colon cancer. I know it’s not the norm, but no one saw it coming and I thought we had our entire lives to spend together.
Life throws you curveballs, you can’t plan who you love.
Thank you Evan for shedding light into the dating world of those of us approaching 40. As a woman quickly approaching 40 and back in the dating pool, I won’t say it’s uplifting, but it is nice to get a realistic perspective on the dating scene.
Aplus 189
You just haven’t found the right one yet, don’t give up, age should never be a problem when it comes to love.
Bert 190
I have read many of the posts above and would like to add my personal experience. I have owned a small business for nearly 15 years. Sure, I have had a couple of long-term relationships in my 30′s. But my biz took up so much of my time and energy that I didn’t date as much as I could have and didn’t devote myself “fully” to the relationships when I was in them. So now I am paying the price: I’m a 42 yo single male who has never been married. I have alot of difficulty meeting women due to my age. I can often get their attention based on my looks and personality. But when my age comes up, they seem to lose interest. Yes, I am considered too old! I stay fit and am currently in the process of changing careers which has added a new stressor to my life. However, I do feel like several of the readers here: My best years have literally slipped through my fingers and it’s now too late!! If I could hit replay on my life all over again, I would have married the first or second woman I was involved with in my 30′s taking my chances, regardless of whether or not it lasted. My conclusion: Better to be a divorced man with children in his 40′s than a NEVER been married single man!!!!!
irv 191
wow i was looking for women that have no children, that want kids;but, it seems like this site, isn’t going to answer that! Can some ladies answer why men should have to take care of other men’s kids, just to have a woman? Or compromise, their beliefs just for companionship, if i wanted to rake care of another man’s kid i would adopt? i would if the man were dead! But they are not… just deadbeats or jail birds or just plain no goodnicks! Is invetro my only answer? I want my own biological kids!Then i’m back to the problem to begin with, companionship! i have raised my kids, by myself and now are grown, and i desire more…is there no hope left in America for men like me? UGH! invetro i guess is the answer! thank you for your coments!
Katarina Phang 192
Irv, I want my own kids too but that doesn’t mean I won’t/can’t fall in love with a man who has had kids of his own and be a mother to them.
When it feels right, it doesn’t matter. If you love him/her, you’ll take him/her with his/her baggage.
Karl R 193
irv said: (#191)
“Is invetro my only answer? I want my own biological kids!”
Are you looking for a wife or a womb?
Would you be interested in marrying a woman whose primary interest in you was your ability to be a sperm donor and financial provider for her future kids? I wouldn’t. And if you give women the impression (even if it’s an incorrect impression) that you’re more interested in their childbearing ability than them as a person, none of them will be interested in you … even the ones you would take an interest in.
irv said: (#191)
“Can some ladies answer why men should have to take care of other men’s kids, just to have a woman?”
I didn’t have to. But when I’ve taken an interest in a single/divorced mother, I’ve been well aware that her kids are part of a package deal. If you don’t want to share in the responsibility of raising her kids, then you need to keep looking.
irv said: (#191)
“if i wanted to rake care of another man’s kid i would adopt”
I have an adopted sister, brother and niece. I don’t feel all that sympathetic toward you.
Cat 194
irv said: (#191) “if i wanted to rake care of another man’s kid i would adopt”
If being a father again is so important to you, why wouldn’t you accept children that are not biologically yours the second time around? Are you really incapable of caring for a child that you’re not 100% sure is from your sperm? Sounds like you’re less interested in fatherhood and more interested in spreading your genetic traits. Which is unfortunate because studies have shown for years that men have their own sort of “biological clock,” and the older the guy, the more likelihood that there will be genetic abnormalities… And women (of any age) have a higher risk of miscarriage when they become pregnant with older men.
Maybe you’re just feeling empty nest syndrome. It’s probably sad to have raised your kids on your own and now they’re grown up and off living their own lives, perhaps even starting their own families. If you wait a few years, you’ll probably have grandchildren…
Doc 195
The rules are changing. With women finding equality in the business world the old rules no longer apply. I’m a tall, nice looking, well rounded writer/M.D. I’m in my late 50′s and I have only dated a few women older than 40. Married twice, I’ve dated alot!
Heres the kicker. One woman closer to my age (early 50′s) who I found interesting, confronted my interest by asking, “whats wrong with you, why are you interested in someone my age?”
She explained to me, a formula appropriate for a successful man, was to find a woman 1/2 your age +9 years.
man’s age woman
25 21
30 24
40 29
50 34
and so on. I think it boils down to mass confusion, and each participant is left to decide what seems right to him/her.
The sad thing, many people are left on the sidelines not sure how to proceed. Personally, I’m waiting for my internal clock, i.e., what attracts me, to catch up with the reality of a man careening through his 50′s. Women late 40′s early 50′s approach me, but I have no interest.
Yikes, I fell asleep and woke up in a Woody Allen movie. I wouldn’t want to belong to a club that would have me as a member.
Best of luck to all, in their pursuit of happiness.
Zax 196
Any guy that puts an age range down that isn’t close to his age will be routinely ignored by a mature woman.
Rachel 197
My last boyfriend is 9.5 years older than I am, and it was, for a time, a perfect ratio. (I turned 38 6 months ago; he’ll be 48 next month.) I have tended to date mostly older men; when I was 24, I dated a 36-year-old briefly; my first very serious boyfriend was 26 and I was 20. I don’t know if I have an older soul or whatever, but the one boyfriend that was my age was, as time wore on, ragingly immature (we dated when I was 24-26.) I’m the youngest of four kids so maybe I’m simply used to being around people older than myself. This last boyfriend has also dated women in his age rage, as well as women 10-20 years older than he. I won’t speculate on what that’s about but he himself mentioned that she was old enough to require physical help. In any case, he told me that my age was perfect for him because he felt I was a woman but still young enough that he felt like he had ‘gotten someone’ out of his usual league. I thought that was a bit strange but I knew what he meant. He said I made him feel more youthful, and because we had a lot in common anyway, we were in essence very well-matched. In any case, his wanting absurdly younger women was never an issue; since I think his desires are all over the map. He said he wanted to build a future (and showed me every day we were together) but then broke up with me quite suddenly, for no apparent reason (and I pay close attention to signs and signals). To this day I still don’t know what happened. He talked about wanting to be a provider and protecter but informed me very early on in our relationship that he’d had a vasectomy. People are dichotomous all the time. I think I might have found myself in an unusually anomalous situation; which is why I don’t assume anything. All you can do is be yourself and speak your truth, while having heart and eyes wide open. Learn what you can, and be aware; but don’t ever think you know what’s going to happen. i thought I did and was dead wrong.
Kurt S. 198
“From 25-34, men play around a lot.” I don’t really see this happening at all! Sure, some guys are playing around, but the women are the ones who generally do the most playing around and it is usually with a small and select group of men.
I am a 35-year-old man myself and I am very suspicious of women my age because I know how much easier dating has been for them than it is for most men. I know other guys in the same boat and we don’t want to get stuck with a woman who has been sleeping around for the past 10 years. This is just one reason why I personally prefer younger women.
I suspect that if Adam is having trouble meeting women in their 30s, it is because of the way he is presenting himself, not because of his age.
Flash Geordie 199
I see that Kurt has noticed as well as I that women posting here repeatedly that all men want to “play the field” into their mid 30′s. I am 31 and have been married for 8 years, as well as having 3 children. What ladies are really commenting on here is the men they choose to “date”, or have casual relations with, wont get serious with them. Simply put, these ladies are still being played by men who get attention from lots of women, for whatever reason. This minority of guys get the largest selection from the dating pool, and you ladies keep falling for their crap. You ignore many of the “good guys” and go for trashy hunks for great sex rather than gentlemen who can treat you well as well as get serious. You ladies are making the same mistakes you did in high school when you slept with the quarterback and had your heart broken when he never called you back. Guess what, he never called because he was busy doing the banging another girl. It seems many american women insist they must have the best man they can find, but the qualities they look for (money, big penis, muscles) exclude the men in question from wanting to settle, why would they when they are getting female attention all the time? In the end you are holding out for straw men that may eventually mature and settle down once the booty calls stop coming, but by then he will want someone younger. A second point is that men don’t want to be #50 in your little black book, if you have played around and we get wind of it, we may like to sleep with you, hang out, even be your friend; but as far as a serious relationship goes, why would we bother? You give it away for free. There is no need to invest in you to get to the good part. This issue is with the perceived value you present to men, right or wrong. Supply vs demand. The more men you have “supplied”, the less demand there is for you. Ask yourself, if you gave it up with no problem to many men in the past, why would we trust you not to do the same if we married you? There are other women who have a wide variety of life situations, or are happily single and don’t want to change that, or who are already in a serious relationship or marriage. I dont intend this comment to be directed at them. It is for the girls who have been duped into believing they can overcome biology and facts of life with an “independent woman” attitude. I have a good friend who is 28, and is finishing her last year of law school. She complains her boyfriend of 32 doesn’t want to get married. He is a drug dealer, has 2 illegitimate kids he never sees by two different women. Guess what, he is also screwing everything he can get on the side and has done so for the entire 2 years they have dated. But he has really big muscles and a BMW.
Wake up and realize you cant have your cake and eat it too.
Karl R 200
Flash Geordie said: (#199)
“The more men you have “supplied”, the less demand there is for you.”
Following the same logic:
U2 has performed their music for millions of people around the world. I have only sung for a few thousand people. Do you think people value my singing more than Bono’s, since I’m not a commodity that has been experienced by millions of people?
You’re using the wrong economic model. Here’s a more comparable model:
People don’t buy Priuses for their speed; they don’t buy F150s for their fuel economy: they don’t buy Porsches for their carrying capacity.
You value chasity. Therefore, you won’t pursue a woman who isn’t chaste. Evan has previously stated that he loves loose women. My tastes run much closer to Evan’s than yours. Since you and I want different traits in a partner, I will be interested in a number of the women that you don’t value.
Flash Geordie said: (#199)
“You give it away for free. There is no need to invest in you to get to the good part.”
Women who charge for sex are prostitutes. I’m not interested in them. Your mileage may vary.
You expect a woman (including your wife) to withhold sex unless she gets whatever “investment” she wants from you? That’s precisely what I try to avoid. My girlfriend enjoys having sex with me, and that pleasure is all she expects from sex. She doesn’t treat sex as a reward to be given only if I do some chores or buy her gifts.
I want to marry my girlfriend because I love her, even though I can have sex without that “investment.” Why did you decide to marry your wife?
Flash Geordie said: (#199)
“if you gave it up with no problem to many men in the past, why would we trust you not to do the same if we married you?”
Fidelity and chastity are two different traits. I slept around without ever cheating on anyone. If I can do it, many women will be equally capable.
Kurt S. said: (#198)
“I am a 35-year-old man myself and I am very suspicious of women my age [...] we don’t want to get stuck with a woman who has been sleeping around for the past 10 years. This is just one reason why I personally prefer younger women.”
If a woman has been sleeping around for the past ten years, she’s probably in her mid-to-late twenties. If you want to date a woman who is too young to have slept around, you’re limiting your dating pool to jailbait.
If you want a woman who hasn’t slept around, then you want one who made a decision not to do so. Those women might be your age or older.
Z 201
Older men seem to feel entitled to younger women.
Kurt S. 202
Karl S, I don’t mean to suggest that I expect to marry a virgin. However, I don’t want to get stuck with the type of woman who is into casual sex with random men. I find that behavior to be extremely unattractive and it is hard to respect a woman who behaves like like.
Kurt S. 203
Z, men should marry a woman at least a little younger than they are. Women are arguable far more superficial than men, so why shouldn’t men be superficial with respect to a woman’s age and beauty?
Z 204
Kurt, how are women more superficial than men? If anything I think women and men can be equally superficial in this realm.
To each his own but you say:…men should marry a woman at least a little younger than they are. Why “should” they, what difference does it make? IMO, that sounds like entitlement, but that’s just me.
I’m not complaining, I think I’m stating the obvious. I agree that men prefer women slightly younger while women prefer men slightly older. But, I’ve found that even 50+ men with little to offer a woman of any age still seem to feel entitled to date the 25y/o supermodel type and then get angry when their advances are rebuffed.
Karl R 205
Kurt S. said: (#202)
“I don’t want to get stuck with the type of woman who is into casual sex with random men. I find that behavior to be extremely unattractive and it is hard to respect a woman who behaves like like.”
What’s the issue? If you don’t respect women who engage in casual sex, those women will actively avoid getting into a relationship with you … because you don’t respect them.
Would you want to spend years married to a woman who had no respect for you? If a woman has no respect for me, there is no other trait she could possibly possess which would cause me to overlook that lack of respect.
If you voice your disrespect for women who engage in casual sex, those women will avoid you like you’re the one who is diseased. Problem solved.
If you want a woman who avoids casual sex, make certain that you avoid casual sex too. That way the women you find attractive will still respect you.
Kurt S. said: (#203)
“Women are arguable far more superficial than men, so why shouldn’t men be superficial with respect to a woman’s age and beauty?”
Why on earth would you want to be superficial? Superficiality is a flaw.
When you insist on having a superficial trait, you limit your dating pool without getting anything in return. You may end up ruling out the best woman you’ll meet for a reason that doesn’t matter in the long run.
Choose your partner for the important traits. If she happens to have the superficial traits, that’s a bonus.
Denise 206
I don’t want to get stuck with the type of woman who is into casual sex with random men.
I know a lot of women who are not like this, so I’m not sure who you are speaking about. It comes down to the person choosing…why would anyone be ‘stuck’ with anyone else?
And I come to, how in the world would anyone know how many sexual partners another person had? Maybe the scenario is the question is posed to the woman, probably on the first date, and when she doesn’t want to answer or hesitates to answer (and then probably lies), she is cast aside on assumptions.
In my world, whenever someone uses the word ‘should’ frequently, that’s a big red flag.
Z 207
Denise #206: “In my world, whenever someone uses the word ‘should’ frequently, that’s a big red flag.”
I agree.
Kurt S. 208
Z, some women will refuse to date an otherwise attractive guy because of the shoes he wears or his “fashion sense.” How many men do you know that would refuse to date an attractive women because they didn’t like her shoes? Men are more shallow than women with respect to physical attractiveness, but women are far more superficial with respect to everything else.
Dating is much easier for most women in their 20s than it is for most men in their 20s. I know lots of successful and seemingly attractive men who struggled with dating, whereas the women didn’t seem to struggle. The men were single but wanted to be in relationships, whereas the women were only single if they chose to be single. Men in their 30s or older should go for at least slightly younger women if they want to start a family – younger women are generally more physically attractive and fertile than older women. Why should a man in his mid-30s or older who has anything going for him settle for a woman his age who wouldn’t have wanted him when she was at the pinnacle of her own physical attractiveness in her 20s and he struggled with dating in his 20s?
I don’t know how many 50+ year old men think they are entitled to a hot 25 year old woman. Is this common? Old men who think that they can get women young enough to be their daughters are delusional, unless they are extremely wealthy or famous.
Selena 209
@ Kurt #208
Why are we to suppose a man in his mid-to-late 30′s is at the pinnacle of his attractiveness and has anything more going for him than he did in his 20′s?
Such a man may have developed more appealing datable qualities with time, OR he may still possess the negative attitudes that made him struggle with dating when he was younger. And hence has the same results.
Richelle 210
Evan…
you are so right about everything. I just turned 32, but when I was 27, 28, 29, 30 and even 31 yrs old…I was not at all in the frame of mind where relationships, marriage and kids were my priority.
To some degree, it’s not even my number 1 goal right now because as an independent, single woman, like most of my female friends my age, we’re still trying to make something out of ourselves / our careers because we have to.
It wasn’t until recently, after meeting women who are 35 yrs and older who complain about not being married and being in relationships, did I take “finding the one” as seriously as my career.
So yes…after 30, I think EVERYONE should take their love lives more seriously!…because your 30s go by so fast, it’s insane!:-)
Karl R 211
Kurt S. said: (#208)
“Why should a man in his mid-30s or older who has anything going for him settle for a woman his age who wouldn’t have wanted him when she was at the pinnacle of her own physical attractiveness in her 20s and he struggled with dating in his 20s?”
Women in their 20s were dating me when I was in my 20s. There were plenty of other women that age who were willing to date men their own age. Those women are now in their 30s and 40s.
So you’re trying to justify your refusal to date all women who are your age because some women who were your age rejected you years ago. Do you have any idea how immature that sounds?
And if a woman rejects a man because he’s immature, I would not consider that to be superficial.
Kurt S. said: (#208)
“some women will refuse to date an otherwise attractive guy because of the shoes he wears or his ‘fashion sense.’”
Do you believe women are going to overlook your superficial behavior just because other women are even more superficial than you? Would you date a woman who was significantly overweight just because she can point out men whom are morbidly obese?
If a woman rejects me for superficial reasons, good riddance.
Kurt S. said: (#208)
“I know lots of successful and seemingly attractive men who struggled with dating,”
And you’re blaming the men’s struggles on women?
I found it much less of a struggle dating in my 30s than in my 20s. I had more confidence, more maturity, more patience, more optimism. I can’t identify a single difficulty that I had in my 20s that I could reasonably blame on women.
Back in my 20s I would have felt differently, but that was before I realized that I was the cause and solution to my own difficulties. It’s much easier to realize and admit this in retrospect. When someone blames the opposite sex for their own difficulties, I find it much easier to believe that they aren’t aware of how much they’re causing their own problems.
Z 212
Kurt S. said: (#208)
“some women will refuse to date an otherwise attractive guy because of the shoes he wears or his ‘fashion sense.’”
Well, some men do seem to think it’s okay to show up for a date in at a nice restaurant in Converse sneakers and torn jeans, all the while the lady puts in the effort to wear a cute dress or outfit, apply her makeup, and get a manicure. To a woman that may signify that he isn’t that serious or mature. Just sayin’.
LIly 213
Personally, I was more open to dating older when I was in my 20s than 30s (and in fact did date & marry someone 10 years older).
On the whole, women in their 30s are established, they’re not looking for that from a man and they don’t need financial security to come from a man. My mindset this time around was more love, passion and a genuine teammate in life. I also think as you get older you’re more aware of ageing and think of the future more, e.g.ageing husband, widowhood etc. If one were in their early to mid thirties and *if* they could get a partner/husband the same age who was as attractive as the 40 something the could get, why would they go for the 40 something. Of course that’s an if but I’m not sure the 40 somethings would be much less picky than the 34 year old guy. As someone said before, they would go for the 40 something but if they can get a 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38 or 39 year old, ceteris paribus, they will. In terms of maturity, financial stability etc, the difference between a 33 year & 40 year old guy isn’t as big as say a 23 year old guy and a 30 year old guy.
I was thinking I was open to any age (reasonable, no 60 years old for me thanks..) but I was thinking of widowhood etc which I wouldn’t have done in my 20s. Though saying that I’m not sure that back then many of my friends would have *seriously* dated someone 10 years older. They would have thought one thing being taken out to dinner etc by an older man, another committing to them.
I don’t see why the original question asker would have any issues at all getting a woman in the 35-42 range (if he is maybe he should sign up for some Evan Marc Katz coaching!) ..but looks like he’s looking for under that age range…
LikeWhatILike 214
I’m 46, female, a native Californian, appropriately shallow given the culture I was raised in and the fact that I was very good-looking when I was young, and don’t find older men attractive even now. At 46, it’s looking like I never will. But, the neat thing is that I’m sure some women do! Life is a challenging enough proposition – all exhortations to the contrary, there’s no sense in trying to fit a square peg into a round hole (unless it’s an awfully big one!), or trying to convince someone to like what they, simply and unequivocally, don’t.
A 215
Ok, I will be honest. It’s the sex. I am sure other women think this but will not admit it here.
A 216
Let’s face it. I am in my late-30s and at my sexual prime. Why wouldn’t I want a young stallion? At least one that is my age…34 seems optimal. But I would go younger if the maturity was there.
However, no, I don’t want to be shallow, so I am open to all ages. And I do understand that all men after over their 35 are not out to their sexual pasture. I would go much older if he could keep me sexually satisfied.
You say men who want children worry about women who are in their mid-to late 30s? Fair enough. But those same women also understand biology and want a man who they feel can satisfy them fully, now that they have hit their sexual stride…I don’t think I am the only woman who thinks about this.
We can sugar coat it, but sometimes it really is about sex. Or more than anyone wants to admit.
Sarah 217
I stopped reading after about the first 100 posts, so forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but here’s my $0.02:
Statistically, women live ~7 years longer than men. Ideally, in searching for love, you want someone to “spend the rest of your life with.” Therefore it should come as no surprise that a woman won’t want a man who’s much older than she is; if anything, she should be looking for younger guys. Nobody (except gold-diggers) gets married hoping for early widowhood.
V 218
I am looking to date a guy who is generous and kind. On the contrary, I can’t imagine looking for a much younger woman (especially 10+ years younger) is imagining HER best interests. Does he picture that a woman spending an average of 17 years as a widow and think that’s cool? How can he think about her dead long before him, or think about her taking care of a 75 year old in diapers when she’s a still vibrant 55, and not feel bad for her? Doesn’t he picture that the same woman could get a guy nearer her own age and be more sexually satisfied for a longer period of her life?
No, the guys who post their requests for exclusively younger women – and many of the men posting here – are not givers. Their stated reasons are selfish – I want to pass on my DNA. I want to look at a hot body for longer. I want to bear myself multiple children.
The best confluence in the dating market happens when women are saying, “To whom can I best give?” and men are also saying, “To whom can I best give?” then a match occurs where those two curves intersect. In that case, it’s probably still an older-male-younger-female match, because their resources match up that way, but for different reasons than if both were selfishly aiming for the best they can get.
I’m an attractive woman and I will not even consider guys who show early signs of major selfishness. Sure, some of them may be hot and rich, but I overlook them anyway. There is very little that comes across as more selfish than a guy starting out with “I want,” “I want,” “I want,” with narrow preferences in terms of age, fertility, blah. Maybe that is ok as a sexual role play, but not attractive in a potential life partner.
Tom 219
What about single male in his 40′s who spent his late 20′s and 30′s raising his much younger siblings, who now is seeking a partner to fall in love with and have kids if they fortunate enough to. If that guy found someone 10 years his junior, would that be wrong?
erik 220
All right here’s my story.
When I was 30, I met my live in girlfriend of 5+ years.
She was 20. (10 years younger)
She ended up cheating on me with a loser her age.
I left her, and she moved in with him.
That didn’t work out… she’s now 34, and still single.
At 36, I met my girlfriend of 4+ years. She was 23. (13 years younger)
She left me on my 40th birthday.
We got back together, but she left me for good 7 months later.
She was 27 when she dumped me, and very attractive.
She dated a bunch of guys, then got married only 1 year after we broke up.
Now I’m 44. I suddenly realized I have never dated a girl out of her 20′s!
I agree with your whole time-frame.
I would like to date a lady in her early 30′s, because I still want kids!
….. Ahh, but now at 44, it seems NO women at all are attracted to me!
I don’t have nearly the amount of friends anymore, or social life,
and I don’t seem to fit in anywhere anymore!
Sarah 221
Amen, V!
Love should be just that: Love. Love is unselfish. Love considers the other’s needs and wants as being at least as important as one’s own. And loving is the greatest joy… I truly want to be with someone I love. (But I want him to truly love me too!)
Tom, I don’t think V is saying it’s wrong if a guy happens to end up with a woman ten years younger. I think what is objectionable is if he deliberately seeks out a younger woman to the exclusion of others for selfish reasons, as she stated: wanting to pass along your DNA, for instance (to which I always want to respond: you had your chance ten years ago, buddy!)
To Erik, and all the other guys out there looking for an early-30s-or-younger woman because you want kids:
Don’t rule out someone your age who is your peer and possibly more mature and stable (not to mention you’ll have less competition for her affections!). Erik, a woman your age is not necessarily post-menopausal, especially nowadays with advances in fertility medicine. (Sarah Palin was 44 when her youngest was born, and I don’t think there was any medical intervention involved!) Failing that, if you still want a BIOLOGICAL child, surrogate motherhood may be an option. And of course there’s always adoption if you’re not too hung up on genes.
Sometimes the best things in life come along when we open to the possibility that what’s best isn’t necessarily what we pictured. Don’t limit yourself.
Seeking out a much younger woman in order to have biological children late in life is not only unfair to the woman, it’s unfair to the children. I lost my parents at a much earlier age than the average person, and it hurts more than I can say. It’s hard enough to lose your parents at all; it’s even worse when you look around and everyone your age (and sometimes twice your age!) still has their parents. It’s not fair. I know, life’s not fair. But maybe, just maybe, it’s a little late to be having children when you reach your fifties or older, hmm guys? After all, if you wanted kids, what stopped you the last twenty years?
starthrower68 222
All of this makes me very happy that I’m 42, have already had all the kids I intend to have and don’t have a biological clock ticking.
Kurt 223
Sarah, you mentioned that Sarah Palin had her youngest child at age 44. That is true, but her youngest child was also born with Down’s Syndrome, which is much more common among women in their late 30s and early 40s relative to younger women. Men do have legitimate concerns that 40-year-old women will have difficulty bearing healthy children.
Tom 224
It is love that found me raising siblings at 27, love of family; when what I really wanted to do was date like normal people and meet someone and fall in love. In fact there was someone in particular I didn’t start dating because I didn’t want to drag them into my complicated time and money starved life. I was just at the beginning of my career (I studied for a long time), but took up other work that immediately provided better money for family. All my friends said I was crazy and still to this day profoundly misunderstand my life. I have lost a lot of respect for people who talk to me as if I can just run off and leave my current life.
I am now 35 and still would love a “selfish” life of free choice and time and money that is used for me. To be able to go off on a weekend with someone or date someone, but that would be “selfish” if I expected someone to wait around or not really having a full relationship because my focus is elsewhere. At least if I was a single parent I could meet another parent perhaps and make a new family. But I am raising other peoples children who for very complicated reasons are in a new life or so old they need my help and income.
I would love to fall in love so bad it hurts. But I have to wait and wait.
So I wait and wait, and then at 41 all my siblings will all be grown up.
I have thought about just continuing on the same path, just working and then helping my siblings as they get older and giving much of my income to their lives and being a kind of family butler. Then being the sole carer for the aged in our family, so they don’t have to go to a home, and my siblings don’t have to do any caring. When you have been doing this for these amount of years, you begin to feel your identity is unimportant and that truly living just for others is all that matters. It feels spiritually rewarding, and right, but I just feel so sad that I am getting better and better at this role and I will never get to experience it with my own children.
So call me selfish, I really don’t care. I still dream to fall in love, and maybe, just maybe if I am really lucky, have children.
All my family tells me I am sensitive and intelligent and am holding my age and my looks will mean I may just be able to date at 41. Everyone in my family lives till their 90′s or beyond. A lot look really good into their 60′s and 70′s even. Most of us look about 10 to 15 years younger. My work thought I was in my twenties. All my interests are about family, food, nutrition, environment or fashion and focused around practical family living. I am loyal to a fault, I have never cheated on anyone, never slept with anyones partner, never lied to get into bed with someone and have always been honest and never, ever mucked someone around by lying my way into their life and having a psuedo-relationship for a few months or even longer (2 years etc) and then just finding some lame excuse to break up cause they never really cared for them at all, like I have seen many of my male friends do to women. That’s “selfish”
I would love to try and date at 41. I frankly don’t care if people think I am “selfish”. Many people I know, know my life plans and think I would be a great partner for someone as my focus in all about family and I would strive to be an even better husband and father than I have been a brother. If I was lucky enough to have a family, they would have my FULL attention. I wouldn’t just be a lame parent who is disinterested in my kids, and I would love to be able to express a life long love with someone who would have me. So I will have invested 14 years of my life into my siblings, and perhaps forgone my “chance”, out of love for family. Ok, I may be a few years older than a partner in the future, but I guarantee I will be a true “partner” who is invested in family life and not just some psuedo-dad who never wanted kids to start with.
Sarah 225
The risk of Down Syndrom is still low (albeit greater at higher maternal age) ; see http://downsyndrome.about.com/od/diagnosingdownsyndrome/a/Matagechart.htm . Moreover as discussed earlier, an older father also poses greater health risks to children yet to be conceived.
So why should a younger woman want an older man? Her concerns about children’s health are as valid as his; my point here is that older men should not insist on younger women for selfish reasons. An older guy is not in a position to be that picky.
Sarah 226
Tom,
Would you be open to dating a woman your age, or within several years (say, four or five)? Or do you intend to insist that she be a decade or so younger than you so that you can maximize the probability of having healthy biological children with her?
Tom 227
Sarah,
Absolutely.
I only mentioned 10 years as an “if” in my first post, cause that was about as far an age gap I could imagine currently in my life, and it seemed to be the general gist of the debate I had read on here.
I found this site in a google search when I was just querying age differences after people had been debating it at work. I used to be with women in there 40′s when I was in my twenties and it made me feel pretty cool, and I hadn’t really thought much more about it.
Cause of my current situation I tried to go into some kind of self imposed shut out of looking for anyone and cause I felt just seperate from that whole singles energy in my role. (except for being picked up for a night, if I was out on occasion and something headed that way) It was kinda nice to just be.
Then someone from my work 10 years younger seemed really interested in me, and someone else said I really had better start thinking about how old I will be when I finish raising family. Age has never really been a big deal to me, but these kinda comments got me thinking. I was more interested in how “cool” I thought someone was.
I have seen many women have kids in their 40′s, and cause I’m into the whole nutrition movement thing, I see age rules get broken all the time. But this site is kinda really asking me to have a serious think and do the maths and see where my life is heading, and really think about age differences, and how my life does or will fit into this kinda debate. I’m glad I found this, I didn’t really realise the polarity of feeling. So my first post was about the most extreme scenario I could think of and the 2nd was about sharing my story, and this is kinda about saying thanks and answering your question. I will keep reading this.
Tom 228
Just to add.
My second post also was about me feeling like the the opinions of others were saying even if I found myself in a relationship with someone younger, then I would have to end it on moral reasons. Seriously, if enough people told me I could not date someone 2 or 3 years younger, I could almost feel like strictly following their “ruling”, and I wanted to break free of that idea and defend my “life”.
Dianne 229
I didn’t get a chance to read all comments, but a lot of them. Did anyone consider the fact we don’t know what Adam looks like? Seems like most guys when they hit 40 magically age by an additional 10 yrs. I’ve met guys in their 40′s that I thought could have easily passed for early to mid 50′s. Hair loss and large middle areas are not attractive to young women wanting to have children. They want a guy who looks like he still has enough energy to play ball with the kids. I’m just turning 50 and logically I could date up to 60 but most guys in that age range look too much like my dad. Blame it on good genes but most of my family look under their age. I have a brother who is 60 but looks 50. If most guys took better care of themselves, they probably wouldn’t have near as many problems finding dates. If I ran across a 65 yr old that looked heathly and basically fit, I’d date him….but I think he may not exist. I meet lot’s of 40 yr olds that look like they’d be out of breath taking a flight of stairs…they should be looking for 40 yr old women at least, not girls in their 20′s and 30′s. Don’t most women have children in their 20′s anyway?
JerseyGirl 230
I’m so turned off by men of any age that only date younger women. This is not a promising trait or qualitity for a man to have for any woman.
When I was younger I was more easily impressed with older men. Now I’m not. My friends use to make fun of me for dating older men when they were all dating guys their own age. I dated older men because they were safer. They weren’t as much of a challenge. They didn’t require much from me then to be cute. Guys my age required so much more of me and when i was younger I was too scared to risk that. Now I date men closer to my own age and I find that so much more fulfilling.
While most tend to look at it from the point of the older woman that doesn’t get to date her peers, it’s not exactly a positive for that younger woman either. One day that younger woman will get older.
I don’t think dating younger woman has anything to do with “procreation”. It has to do with control. Because both men and women age. And yet, men are only “practical” about aging when it comes to women. I never met a gender more scared to get older then within men.
mk 231
bad advice. i am in exactly the same situation. you need to 1. youngen up a bit. 2. lose weight 3. buy new clothes and 4. have fun in your life.
do NOT go for 35-40 year old women! they are a nightmare, angry frustrated, high maintenance and their clock is ticking FAST.
do the opposite. get a nice 20-something. i thought id have nothing in common but now im dating a 23 year old , shes smart, fun and easygoing. it wont last long but its awesome. reallly trualy awesome
JPat 232
Thank You for writing this!! I was so tired of being approached by 40+ men in my 20′s and early 30′s. I couldn’t connect with them either because we had nothing in common. To make things worse, I was simply not physically attracted to them.
There are other reasons too. We worry about the older man dying before our kids reach high school. With a man over 40, we worry about decreased fertility (poor sperm quality), increased risk of your child having schizophrenia , low IQ, low birth weight. There are no prenatal test for these!!!
I wish men would stop postponing starting their families.
Serena 233
I am a 30 year-old woman with a 3 year-old child. I have been separated for well over a year. I don’t seek dates yet b/c the divorce papers haven’t been filed yet but if I meet the right man I will date him. I had a 29 year old boyfriend for 3 months but we weren’t right for each other and I ended it a few months ago. Since then, I have tried (unsuccessfully) to date 2 different men over 40. The first was a friend, 41 and childless but wants to have a child, that my other friends really wanted me to date. He was older, successful, mature, liked the arts and music and the outdoors, and he didn’t play video games. I very much would have liked to try going on a few dates to see if there was anything there, but I got zero signs of interest from him and I gave up (my friends really wanted us to date, so I gave them the go ahead to check with him and they confirmed that he wasn’t interested). I’m glad I didn’t pursue and embarrass myself and we can still be friends.
Next guy is 42-43. Even more successful and quite handsome too. Active, funny, and likes the arts and music. He has older children. We met at an event and spent a couple hours together talking over a late dinner. He was very attentive, and complimentary and smitten with me. He asked me how old I was and was very relieved that I was 30. He commented a couple times on how young I looked. He asked me lots of questions about my upbringing and even my religion (which was compatible with his though I let him do most of the talking b/c it seemed a bit like a 4th date question). He said I was very interesting and gorgeous. I did not act like in an immature way. He kissed me on the cheek and asked for my number (at the beginning of our time together and just before I left). That was Saturday and today it’s Thursday. Nothing. I haven’t heard a thing from him. I think he’s very busy, but I’m pretty sure he won’t call. Busy or not, if really liked me, he’d at least send a text.
I wonder if he decided I was too young after all. It’s so frustrating b/c I’d far rather date an older man. I already have a daughter. I’d like to have another one, possibly, but my career is important. I’d be much happier with a man that wants no more children than I would be with a man that wants me to give birth to three more children. And what if something happened since my last child and I’m not able to conceive anymore. After all, I’m 30; anything could happen.
I would really like to find a 37-45 year old man that is youthful and physically fit, loves the arts and music and doesn’t play video games. Unfortunately I have amazing skin and a youthful voice. I dress elegantly, and have perfect table manners, and practice good listening but maybe I need to do more to appear mature if I’m going to find that older man.
SS 234
Serena 233, maybe those men haven’t contacted you again because they have no interest in dating a married woman who hasn’t filed for divorce.
Serena 235
SS 234 you could be very right! That’s why I haven’t created an online dating profile and I don’t go to places (bars, singles events, etc) looking for men. B/c I know it’s an issue for some men and I don’t want to have to explain that I’ve barely seen or spoken to my ex in 14 months and that it really is over. Maybe I’ll see a difference once I’ve filed them this summer!
SS 236
Serena,
Yeah, I especially think this is the case with the man who wanted children. If he’s 40 and childless, he probably wants to marry quickly and start a family quickly as well, so he likely would be looking for someone who’s already “available,” so to speak, to enter the type of relationship he wants.
Even if you have barely seen or spoken to your ex in more than a year, I do think that a lot of men looking for a more serious relationship (maybe like the ones in their early 40s) would probably question why you haven’t filed for divorce. Obviously you know the reasons and you don’t have to share them here, but just hearing the basics could send up a red flag for someone who might think you’re being flaky or whatever because you haven’t filed. And some — even though you know your marriage is over — just might not like the idea of dating someone who is still married by law. I know I didn’t like it, even if I knew 100% that the marriage was over, I simply did not want to get involved with a married man, because that’s what he still was, whether he felt that way or not.
So good luck and get the divorce done and then see what happens!
Alice 237
I’m a 21 year old girl and i hate when older men approach me.
I don’t think older men realize this but it makes us feel like crap when you approach us, it’s hard to explain but please have some respect, if you are 30+ (I don’t even date guys over 24 yrs old) it’s not appropriate for you to hit on us.
Most likely, we are not interested and will politely turn you down.
I have a dad, a grandad, and a great grandad who is buried.
i’m not looking for another dad, i want someone around my own age and i think that most girls my age feel the same way.
i always think “why isn’t he with someone his own age”, it’s weird and you come off as sleazy.
that’s all i wanted to say and i think many older men feel entitled to younger women and it’s not right, i would never date an old man.
Kurt 238
Alice, as hard as it may be for you to believe right now, if you are still single when you are in your late 20s, you might seriously consider men 10 years older at that time especially if you do want to settle down. At the age of 21, you are probably as physically attractive as you will ever be, so it is very easy for you to impose a 3-year age restriction. However, the older you get, the more your physical beauty will fade and the less power you will have over men. That is why a lot of women do end up going for at least slightly older men who are more likely to appreciate them.
Jadafisk 239
But most women either impose these kinds of restrictions or “naturally gravitate” towards similar people and end up marrying men who are within 5 years of their own age.
Susan61 240
Wow, Kurt. Are you really insinuating that Alice, as she approaches her late 20′s, is already going to be losing her physical beauty? That Alice, is her late 20′s, won’t be able to find men closer to her age who might find her attractive? That Alice will be forced, in her late 20′s to settle for a guy at least 10 years her senior who will “appreciate” her? That she is the most physically attractive she will ever be at age TWENTY ONE? And then it’s all downhill for Alice, huh? I suppose you will look amazing, studly and sexy right into your 80′s though, huh Kurt? And poor Alice, at 30, will be looking OLD, washed up and undesirable. Unbelievable, the attitude and misogyny of so many men. No wonder women have a hard time finding a decent partner.
Jonathan Marcus 241
This may just be from your own experience but I doubt that it is the case. I am 41 and have not had any problems dating women in their 20′s and 30′s. I am currently seeing a beautiful 26 year old.
You say “At singles events, women come in groups and are reluctant to talk to men”. You should develop the confidence to be able to approach women. I think this may be your problem. Remove this thought of women are reluctant to talk to men. They are there for one reason, to meet men. People go to restaurants because they are hungry and want to eat. Women go to singles events because they want to meet single men.
This is a confidence issue on your part. You telling me if George Clooney who is in his 50′s walk in to a singles event no woman in her 20′s & 30′s wouldn’t want to go out with him? BULL SHIT!
So, work on yourself and go get them. Read the book “How to be an Alpha Male”.
Stef 242
Wow. This is heated. I just want to say that age should be a factor, but not the only factor. This guy could give women between the ages of 32-42 a chance and see what happens. After all, there is NO guarantee that a 32 year old is going to be more fertile than a 39 year old. Stastics, are just that- you may fall on the good side- or the bad side. I just saw a report on a TV reporter who had MS and her now husband (boyfriend at the time) decided that being with her was more important than dealing with the idea that he could find a healthier partner.
You again marry the PERSON. Not the age. I know many, many women who have had successful pregnancies and been over the age of 35. My mother for one, was a planned pregnancy when her mom was 42. My step-aunt married my Great Uncle who was 20 years her senior. Everyone thought it was for his money- regardless she died way earlier than he did.
Next, I know everyone talks about birth defects. My 21 year old cousin had a down’s syndrome baby- according to statistics, I should have heard of of someone older who had this happen- not her.
My sister did marry a man almost 14 years her senior whom she met online by the way when he was 41 (but claimed to be 37 to gain a bigger pool of women to chose from)- when they decided to have kids when she was 30 and he was 44, guess what- she needed fertility. So much, for the idea that if he dated over a decade younger that he wouldn’t have to deal with problems that people have to deal with in marriage.
I have plenty of friends who have used fertility- and they are well below the age of 35 and their husbands are younger than 40. The point is that you can argue statistics till you are blue in the face, but at the end of the day, if you don’t give people outside of what your “ideal” is- you may be losing on your chances to meet a partner.
For one, take a look at Evan, he married a woman who was 38, (older than him) and they now have a baby. Age is factor, but it doesn’t guarantee that you will be happier or not have issues to deal with, fertility of not.
Goldie 243
@ Alice and Kurt ##237-238 – oh, Kurt, this is rich. I just turned 44 and the last time I dated, or was in a relationship with, anyone older than myself, he was 19 and I was 17. Dated younger guys for a while, married a younger guy, stayed married for 18 years, got divorced, went back to dating younger guys. Never meant it to be that way, that’s just the way things happen. Personally I prefer my own generation because I feel I connect with them better.
This year I went back to online dating and this is the first time in my life when I’ve had mostly much older men approaching me (early to late 50s, and on two notable occasions, late 60s) This is all new to me. I’ve been talking to the 50-year-old guys, but to me it’s a huge shift. I mean, how do you connect with a man who was already married with kids when the first Back To The Future came out? LOL I’m not going to lie to you, it’s difficult to find common things to talk about. Not impossible, but takes some getting used to.
This is only online though. IRL I still have people approaching me that are all my age or younger. So take heart, Alice, there is life at the other end of 30
And, yeah, I have to agree with Alice, ten-year difference when she’s 40 and he’s 50 – okay. Ten-year difference when she’s 21… um a little creepy IMO. It’s a whole different life stage/maturity level at that age.
Susan61 244
@Goldie #243. This is why I cannot bring myself to online date. In real life, men our age will approach us, be attracted to us, and (gasp) even ask us out. In the internet dating world, we are severely judged by one factor: the year we were born. The same guy who might flirt with me at a bar and pursue me in real life won’t even look at me online. I look quite young for my age but I won’t lie about it online. So since I’m not attracted to guys 10 years older than me (and frankly, I never was – I have always been attracted to men who were within a few years of my age) I see no reason to online date because most of the men in my age group will not consider me. In real life, I’ve had men 15 years younger than me pursue me.
I like being with a man within 5 years of my age as we can relate to a lot of the same things..it just feels comfortable to me. I would make an exception if the right man came along who perhaps was not within that age range but so far, it hasn’t happened.
And for the record, I just turned 50 – the year that women become “invisible”. I accept that it may be all over for me, as I need to be physically attracted to a man in order to take it beyond “friends”. Call me deluded but that’s just the way it is. I’d rather be alone and enjoy life with my female and male friends than be with a man I’m not attracted to – just to have a man in my life. Tried it and it doesn’t work. I still have that little sliver of hope that I could fall in love again but I’m not banking on it. The odds are stacked against us “women of a certain age”. Yet, I am enjoying life very much lately, despite my waning youth and beauty, as I know there is a lot of less of it left and I want to have as much fun as possible. That does not include online dating, at least at the moment.
matey 245
Kurt: My mother is 7 years older than my father. They are not perfect, but they are still in love like teenagers at the ages of 78 and 71. Love transcends.
Kurt 246
@Susan61, you are deluding yourself if you honestly think that the typical woman has the same power over men in her early 30s or older as she would have had when she was in her early 20s. Women peak in attractiveness at a younger age than men. An attractive 25-year old woman can just about get any guy she wants, whereas an attractive 35-year-old woman holds less sway unless she lowers her standards.
Sheyna 247
As a former 25 year old, current 35 year old, I’m here to tell you, Kurt, that is patently false. Maybe you wouldn’t give me the time of day but since I don’t have a big red O pinned to my chest announcing the shame of my age, you would not know how old I am.
I know the guys I was pulling at 25 and I know the ones I can get now and now is better.
Zaq 248
Sheyna@247
That is why beauty contests are full of 35 year old women. Oh sorry they are not are they. Come to think of it, they are not full of 25 year olds either.
Why would that be ?
Sheyna 249
I never knew that “beauty pageants” represent the pinnacle of beauty.
I’ve never met anyone who thought that either. It’s kind of a baffling thing to say actually seeing how the only people who enter beauty pageants are people that like beauty pageants. It’s kind of self-selecting that way. Unlike the rest of the world of people.
SS 250
@Zaq 248
The reason is because the contests have age restrictions.
18-24 for Miss America, 18-26 for Miss USA (with the winner competing in Miss Universe against more 18-26 year olds) so even if you were a 35-year-old who wanted to compete and see how well you’d do against the younger women, you couldn’t.
So, unless your point is that the pageant organizers prefer younger women, you can’t make the claim that the reason 35 year olds aren’t competing is because they aren’t attractive. They’re banned from participating!
I do think that women in their 20s have a larger selection of men from which to choose for a variety of reasons (beauty, greater selection of single men available, fertility), but I think that men can go overboard with the whole, “better grab a man at your peak at 21-25 or else,” mentality.
I met my guy at 31, and probably attracted better quality men in general between ages 25-30 than I did at 20-24. I’m only 33 now, so I can’t speak for how it is as a 35-year-old woman!
But if I was single at 35, while I think I’d meet some good guys, I think my chances would be better at 25… but I wouldn’t act as if I was over the hill and washed up at 35 either… PLENTY of women 35 and over are marrying good guys that don’t have one foot in the grave, especially in larger cities.
Goldie 251
Zaq, #248, how is the subject of beauty contests relevant to this site? I thought we were all here to talk about dating and eventually finding a life partner, not to swap tips on how to win a Miss Universe crown.
@Kurt #246: “An attractive 25-year old woman can just about get any guy she wants, whereas an attractive 35-year-old woman holds less sway unless she lowers her standards.”
A man in my age group (40s) or Susan61′s, that will choose a 25-year-old over someone closer to his age, is IMO a man who is looking for arm candy, not a life partner. He doesn’t care if he has anything in common with his GF, as long as he can parade her around his friends as proof of his success. Now why would Susan or I want to be with a man like that? I’d leave him to his 25-year-olds while I’ll be meeting mature, intelligent, relationship-oriented men. Feel free to call it “lowering my standards” if you want, I don’t mind.
angela 252
Hi All,
I tried to date someone who was 15 yrs older than me…we two were introduced by mutual friends…I am 28…he was still single and never married…he was engaged once and broke up…I tried my best to care and to love him but it did not work well…and the saddest thing…he left without words…and he told our mutual friends..that I was treating him badly…that I was not loving him enough…how silly!
Angela
starthrower68 253
i find the notion that women’s desirability peaks at 25 fascinating. i’ve been hit on plenty of times by much younger guys. there is a thread on here discussing that very thing. go figure.
Jadafisk 254
“Attractive 25 year old women” may be considered less attractive when compared to other 25 year old women than when compared to attractive or middling thirtysomething or fortysomething year old women. Dating significantly older (7 years plus) is how less attractive young women sometimes “make up the difference.” I see older men pursuing younger women, the likes of whom they wouldn’t have looked at twice when they themselves were at their attractiveness peak and “young women” were their default dating pool instead of an inherent luxury. In my teens and early 20s, I was largely ignored by men my own age. Who showed up, though? Older men… in droves. Many girls embrace it - I’ve heard them discuss similar phenomena in glowing terms - I spent that entire time wondering what was wrong with me because I wasn’t deemed good enough by guys my own age. Now that I’ve found them, I do not care if I “peaked” at 21, I feel much more attractive *now* at 25 because a higher number of more attractive men in their 20s are showing interest in me.
sam 255
I am 32 and it is very annoying how men my age want women in their 20s. Men seem to think that in their 40s that a 30something would date them. There is too much of a gap and usually men who want to settle in their 40s were the player in their 30s who thought they would always be. This is not so. I am either approached by guys in their mid20s or early 40s and neither work for me. The guys I want to know more around my age want only sex with me and go out with younger women. Why is this? I do not know. I do not have any kids, just got my doctorate and look like I’m in my mid20s. I do believe women my age who are single are very selective. I am only interested in men close to my age, education level, and are tall and lean. I don’t care if people say that is shallow. I have learned that if I go with a guy who is shorter and doesn’t have a large one that no matter how nice they are, what they do, and how much we have in common, I am unhappy.
Karl R 256
sam said: (#255)
“I do believe women my age who are single are very selective. I am only interested in men close to my age, education level, and are tall and lean.”
Do you understand how selective you’re being?
I’ve recently researched some stats at Evan’s request:
36% of single men are close to your age (assuming an acceptable range of 27-37 out of a total range of 25-64)
8% of men in your age range have more than a bachelors degree
42% are 5’10″ or taller
44% have an average or underweight BMI
(The information above comes from U.S. Census, CDC and related sources, if you feel like checking my math)
0.5% of men meet all four criteria … and some of those won’t be nice, or share common interests, or share your values, or be interested in you.
sam said: (#255)
“I don’t care if people say that is shallow.”
I don’t think it’s shallow. I think it’s foolish. You’re ruling out 199 of every 200 men before you get to the qualities that actually matter.
How many men do you know? Unless you know tens of thousands of single men, I think you’re sabotaging your own efforts.
Still Looking 257
@Karl 256
Karl – While I agree with your ultimate conclusion, I must disagree with your analysis because you assume there is no correlation between the four criteria.
{According to the CDC “There are no significant differences in obesity prevalence by education level among non-Hispanic black and Mexican-American men. Among non-Hispanic white men there is a threshold effect, the prevalence is lower among college graduates compared with those with some college. Among women, non-Hispanic white and Mexican-American women with college degrees are significantly less likely to be obese compared with those with less than a high school education. In fact, among non-Hispanic white, non-Hispanic black, and Mexican-American women, the prevalence of obesity among those with a college degree is significantly lower than among women with some college”}
While I might dispute the percentage of men Sam is excluding, you do make a wonderful point.
Karl R 258
Still Looking said: (#257)
“you assume there is no correlation between the four criteria.”
Actually I assumed that there was a correlation between the criteria, and where I had data which allowed me to account for that correlation, I used it.
If I didn’t have data which accounted for the correlation, I assumed it was more useful to use the available data. That’s the assumption I made.
The BMI data I used accounts for correlations to sex and age. If you know of a source where I can find granular BMI data by sex, age, race and education level, I’d be happy to redo the numbers.
Seriously, I’ve read other articles (correlating BMI to income) which suggest the variance for men is small. For women the difference is quite significant.
(The article actually showed that male BMIs slightly increased with income. However, the graph didn’t account for age, which clearly correlates to income. Education also correlates to income, so if the correlation between education and BMI was more significant than the correlation between age and BMI, the trend should have been a decreasing one.)
Kurt 259
” I am only interested in men close to my age, education level, and are tall and lean. I don’t care if people say that is shallow. I have learned that if I go with a guy who is shorter and doesn’t have a large one that no matter how nice they are, what they do, and how much we have in common, I am unhappy.”
Sam, good luck finding a man your age, with the same educational level, and who is tall, lean and has “a large one.” If you are so selective about men, you should expect the men who meet these criteria to also be very selective about women and you just might not be what they are looking for.
Noel 260
I find this all very humorous. I’m 39 & have been looking for Mr. Right forever. Evan is right, when I was early to mid thirties, I did not want to date a man in his 40′s. It does seem old. Now, as I approach 40, I want a guy in his mid thirties & early 40′s. What I really want is a guy my own age & I always have. The best relationships i have had were with men no more than a year up or down. Unfortunately, what is attracted to me is guys in their twenties or guys who are my age and not very attractive or fit, or desirable. I’m sure they are out there, I just can’t seem to locate them. I am not sure about the advice to take things seriously in your 30′s. I thought I was – I’ve always been looking for mr. Right. Every older divorced woman, heck all older women including my mom & grandmother have always told me, do not settle.I think a lot of women in past generations settled. Women my age want what they want now, just like men. The unfortunate thing is men are not realistic, if you are a good looking man in you 40′s, you should be dating an equally attractive woman of the same age, your not going to get a younger woman today that is you equal because you are not her equal – she’s going to look at you as being old.women are able to date younger men now too. My question is who want these younger people, they seem to not offer as much as your peer & equal would mentally & emotionally. I want someone my own age. Exactly the same age, even better!
Lili 261
Fascinating!
I’m going through a divorce after a long separation. I have kids. I don’t want another little one right now because I need to recover financially from the divorce, and even in the best-case romantic scenario I plan to have my own savings and bank account from now on. I don’t want someone else to pay for my ex-husband’s kids, but I do want my kids to see me in a stable, loving relationship so they know how a man should treat them and what a good marriage or at least partnership is like.
As a woman in her early thirties I was thinking men in their forties would be my only hope (and I’m totally okay with that).
I have to wonder… did the man asking the question have any deal-breakers, like kids or divorce, that he’s not talking about? Because those women would be much more likely, in my opinion, to go for a man who’s ready to settle down, at least if they claim to be. They aren’t going to mess around that much with kids in the picture, or if they do, it’s going to be just fun stuff for a week or two, not stuff that cuts into their time with the kids.
Lili 262
“Alice, as hard as it may be for you to believe right now, if you are still single when you are in your late 20s, you might seriously consider men 10 years older at that time especially if you do want to settle down. At the age of 21, you are probably as physically attractive as you will ever be, so it is very easy for you to impose a 3-year age restriction. However, the older you get, the more your physical beauty will fade and the less power you will have over men. That is why a lot of women do end up going for at least slightly older men who are more likely to appreciate them.”
Kurt is right. Also, the older you get, the less the number matters.
Plus, even if you really take care of yourself and remain looking into your 20s even in your 30s, a lot of men your age will still be looking at younger girls who aren’t looking to settle down. That comes biologically with age, too… I never thought I’d want a kid and biology took over. Just like it will when you have THAT appointment with the OBGYN and she says, “If you’re planning on having children, Alice, you know it’s best for the baby if you start sooner rather than later…”
At that point, when you are 28, a fit, kind, ready-to-settle career man of 38 might be looking pretty damn hot, and he’ll feel so lucky to have you and will treat you like you deserve, unlike men your own age that act like they haven’t finished college.
Esteem 263
Lil,
There are immature men of all ages. For some people it’s just their personality, so they will always be self-fish and immature even at 38 or later. You have to pay attention to the personality. I dated men in their 20s who were more mature and caring than my old father and some of his friends will ever be. Why? It’s about their personalities, that’s how they are, not about age, obviously.
Beware, some naive women out there think an older man is giving them all that attention and “treating you like you deserve” because they are genuinely in love with you and your personality and values; instead, some of that “attention” is just because of your younger age. I wouln’t want to be with a man who treats me well mainly because I represent some kind of trophy for him. That would be pretty sad. I have a friend who gave in to this type of relationship and it’s not a happy relationship now, or has it ever been? It’s all so shallow and empty.
Esteem 264
For those males who think they are more desirable in their 30s than in their 20s, think again. You might be making more money, but you’re not better looking and you’re heading to your 40s. The physique of a male in his 20s is also much better for sex than a man who is in his 30s or 40s. Older men recognize this and some get so insecure to the point of putting younger males down, calling them “kid” a bit too much, cause he can’t be a man, it would make ”you” an “old or older man”
That’s why you see older men in movie roles that make them look a bit or a lot out of place because that role would be a better part for a younger man. Times are changing, actually they have changed already, and older sexist males are not happy. That’s why I welcome the younger males who oftentimes don’t have such sexist (traditional) views but a fresher look, and can see women for deeper qualities than some close-minded males.
Jadafisk 265
I don’t know… both men and women can look pretty good into their 30s if they put a little effort in (and genetics hasn’t done a a number on their hairline), but 40s is usually where the drop-off occurs for both genders. That’s part of why women in their 30s are hyper-focused to the point of obsession with their age peers, where women in their 20s feel that they have more wiggle room to date men their own age along with slightly older ones. Also, the beliefs of middle-aged men on gender in particular and society in general are less compatible with those of younger women, especially if those women are secular.
Chris 266
I’m a 41 year old single man in NYC and agree it’s a tough age. Kinda caught in the middle, etc. But I get a lot of dates with attractive women younger than me and I’m outta shape. I think it must be your personality…you come across a bit whiny. Try not worrying so much and start enjoying yourself. It will make you more attractive.
John 267
There seems to be some bad science floating around here. There are certain risks associated with women bearing children over approximately the age of 40. This has been widely discussed in the media. But there are different risks associated with MEN producing children when they are over 40. The risk of schizophrenia in the child shoots through the roof once the source of sperm is over 40, for example.
Evan Marc Katz 268
@John, from Schizophrenia.com: “”The finding is that father’s age is not connected to the risk of schizophrenia when it runs in families, but only for cases with no family history. That is called sporadic schizophrenia.” This doctor also noted: “I would personally not discourage anyone from having a child at any age. People weigh their own risks. For the offspring of older fathers (over age 50), the risk of schizophrenia is about 3%. That means that 97% of the offspring do not have schizophrenia.”
I'll tell you why 269
I am so sorry, but this one is hard to lay off. I am 41 years old, still considered very attractive both in body and in face. As long as I keep my hair dyed monthly and don’t need to reach for my reading glasses, I can pull off early 30′s easily. And at my age, I look around at the men and I wonder what happened? Where are the cool men I knew in my teens and 20′s, who were in shape and knew how to dress? I dye my hair to keep my looks up. Bald and close cut are some options for men losing their hair. Gotees are great for that double chin that comes around in the 30′s. Man boobs will never, ever be attractive. Fashion and a “decent” body never went anywhere! Keep up! If I, as a 41 year old am not attracted, why would a 30-something be attracted? Because men in their early 30′s are the best thing going! They’ve grown up, lost their baby face, but many of them have not seemed to have lost “it”. Something unattractive seems to happen to a lot of men in their late 30′s and 40′s, and it’s not good for them or for us.
I'll tell you why 270
Wow. I just read back about 50 posts or so. I feel so validated that so many other women in my age range feel the same as i do. I thought I was coming across like a bizsnatch, but it seems I am in like company if that is the case. All I can tell ya men is you gotta take care of yourselves. sure we all age. I have gray hair, aching joints, reading glasses, and a little more hip action than I had in my 20′s, and I can forgive those aging traits in a man as well. But you can’t just let yourself go totally and dress weird and think you’re gonna get the girl (woman, actually). Looks matter for us too fellas.
Peter 271
I am 59 (a few days off 60). In the last 4 years I have no trouble dating very good looking women from 30 to 50. I am working on marriage with a very pretty 35 year old who cooks like my Grandmother and has a well disciplined, well behaved 12 year old son (of course he wil explode but she has done it right so far). She has had a moment or two of doubt and age was one objection she put forward but it wasn’t real. I am in very good shape and I have my own business that I started 6 years ago so I am not counting the months to retirement. It doesn’t mine that I “look 45 really” but i don’t like as though i am ready to move to Florida or Benidorm sometime soon.
Peter 272
Mine/mean like/live
Peter 273
Who are these men who have postponed marriage to 40 and now want a fertile woman for reproduction? They are the promiscuous 25%. How good will they be as husbands and fathers? People do not mature as they grow older, not until their 50′s at least. An immature selfish 21 year old will stil be like that at 45. The solid, serious, hardworking, sensible 21 year olds who don’t find the stereotype are just not visible because we see what we are told to see. The irresponsible ones having a good time are the most visible. But the solid serious people find each other and come 40 years old, they have the most desired and stereotypicallly accepted life styles. The promiscuous have reached their sell by date and suddenly they want different companions. If you haven’t got a ring on offer, don’t have sex. That will quickly sort teh men from the boys.
Kurt 274
Peter (273), your comment is absurd. A lot of white collar professional men make it into their late 30s single because their female peers didn’t want them when the women were of a good marriageable age, and this is especially true in a big city. I am in my mid-30s and it is hard to meet a decent woman – it really is amazing how few suitable women are out there. The problem I see is that women tend to play the field dating bartenders, etc., when they are in their 20s and early 30s and only start looking seriously for a husband when they hit late 30s. I and most of my single friends probably would have married years ago if we had found decent women when we were younger. My guy friends are definitely not promiscuous.
Kurt 275
By the way, I totally disagree with the person who wrote this post. A woman in her mid-30s who wants to get married would be foolish not to consider men 5-10 years older than her. Unless she looks young for her age, she undoubtedly realizes that men the same age as her will prefer younger women. The guy who wrote this is probably not that attractive himself and goes for women well out of his league.
Kjoy 276
Sorry to hear about your troubles…. maybe you should move to south carolina? Here the younger women want older men. Married or not. Because they see that the older men can take care of them,and keep them up. They also will become pregnant right away! This way they’ve got you. Its funny seeing older men with younger women here. They leave thier older wives and family to start over with a new family. They look like grandpas not a husbands. The poor man will not live long enough to see thier young child even graduate!
Kjoy 277
I forgot! I am not an old ugly bitter woman lol….. this is really how it is. And how do I know? Because I see it, hear it. And some of my friends do it…..
Margaret 278
@Susan61, #244. I turned 50 in April, and I am so where you are as well. If someone like Evan had been around when I was in my late 20s or 30s, I think his excellent advice would have helped me tremendously online. Now, not so much.
My experience has been similar to yours. I prefer dating men within 5 years, although I’d make an exception for a 60 y ear old in good shape. Online, I have gotten emails from men way older, way younger, or men my age that don’t have their act together.
Like you, I have accepted that it may be over for me as well as far as being in a relationship. But given the fact that I will not be with someone I am not attracted to, and the current sorry state of values in American society, I am not holding my breath. Still, I have nto closed the door completely.
Peter 279
Maragaret. :-) Thank you. Good shape and still building the future rather than reviewing the past. however ..
My business is in Russia so things are a little different there. The 35 year old was my landlady for 3 years. We were both seeking more age appropriate people (49 in my case) and not finding anyone we could be friends with. One day we looked at each other across the breakfast table – I sleep in the spare bed – and we just saw each other’s best friend. She refuses to leave Russia (she has a property business and she doesn’t speak English) which doesn’t bother me. I speak the language and I do business with Russians. I hate dating, as in a formal meeting together. It is so false and doesn’t tell you anything. You need to see each other stressed out with work, child care, money troubles and so on before you know who you’ve got.
Julie 280
“The 35-40-year-old women who ARE ready for marriage, unfortunately, are roundly ignored by the men they desire – their 35-40-year-old peers.”
I’m terribly sorry but that’s nonsense. Most modern Western professional women such as those I talk with and know personally in NYC, Toronto, and LA (Im a publicist) want YOUNGER men. They’ve bought the lie whole that because they are “youthful” they deserve somebody under 35 though themselves are 35-40. Also most men 35-40 who I know (all business professionals) are more than willing to date their own age group. But their female counterparts are not really interested in them –only their wallets. This is the truth in large urban cities. It’s the sad reality of a materialistic culture.
mike johnson 281
I am 55, calm and intelligent and financially very well off, I am athletic and could easily pass for early 40ies base on my looks. And my observation while I tried to date and show interest in women in their mid 30ies from around here was that they were almost exclusively hung up on age … totally disregarding any other qualities, but a great many of them got interested when they realized I had financial assests. So fair or not, but I totally wrote off women from my own country and approached women overseas where a mans age is of secondary importance and where his ability care for and support a family is considered one of the prime factors in choosing a mate … so cut a long story short , I ended up a tall stunning filipina 35 years of age … and after 3 years of marriage, it could not be any better. I am so lucky to have this woman in my life. I highly recommend it, but if you take this approach … avoid internet dating sites … I traveled there some 15 times and I was introduced to my wife by business associates.
Saint Stephen 282
@MJ
Lucky you! It seems you are having a good life, so more power to you….!
It’s surprising how American women continually push their men to look outside. And i believe if not for financial reasons more men will be looking outside.
Tom 283
I can’t understand why a man of 42 years would STILL want kids. By the time you actually meet someone, fall in love, court, marry, than finally have your first baby would put you at about 44 or more. Which means you’ll be dealing with a TEENAGER while pushing 60. No thanks.
g 284
Lets get one thing straight first before making assumption on what women want. Online dating sucks!
The only reliable thing to base who will date you on is a real life experience.
Ray 285
Mike@281
Seems like you are the one hung up on age if you are willing to travel to another country to get a much younger woman. Going to a developing country to get some woman desperate to leave bad living circumstances says zero about you.
But good for you. Takes you out of the dating pool here. Sounds like a win-win for everyone.
Stephen@282
American women aren’t pushing anyone. From what I can tell, it is a race to the ‘bottom’ with some American men. They have zero to offer except a paycheck and so must go to some developing country where women basically prostitute themselves to escape their crappy living conditions. High five to you… I guess.
Ron Diggity 286
Interesting points made by Evan – I can’t say I’ve observed them to be 100% true, but I like the thinking he employs. To be honest, I think women at that age are (generally) a bit more desperate to find a man and have babies. Even if they don’t want kids, there is no denying women realize their looks often hit the wall after 30. At the very least, they will have far less dating leverage then they were used to. I guess it comes down to what’s more important to women – growing up or chasing social validation that they are still attractive. I wonder if the OP has considered dating abroad? With all due respect, American women are about the worst for that his looking for. If he went to South America or somesuch, he would likely be able to find women 15 years younger who would be a perfect match.
CrazyHorse 287
Evan hit it right on the nose….well most of it. What he doesn’t understand is what I do. I’m a 42 yr old single male, attractive and very caring. Here is what the actual problem is nowadays with women, (women can argue this all they want but it is true and based on FACT). I’m going to break this down for all the guys here.
1. Older women nowadays which is anything above 35 want guys 10 years or more younger than them, (yes this makes them not any different from a hooker)
2. If you have noticed on all these dating sites 90 something percent of the women from age 35 and up are real homely looking, scary looking or look like they just crawled out of the forest, sorta like a Sasquatch. These women have huge unrealistic views on who and what they can get, (which is why they are on dating sites to begin with). (If you were to leave a dating site and come back to it in one year you will find the exact same women on there still looking, kinda of makes you go Hmmmmmm)
3. This is another good reason, many women profiles you look at are no longer active. Those women probably were genuine and met someone but forgot or didn’t care to remove their profile. In other words the remaining active women profiles on dating sites are abnormal people and that’s putting it lightly.
4. Many women are holding out for the guy that just walked out of a GQ magazine and are millionaires. Yet these same women look like an ogre. This coincides with 2.
Those are 4 important facts that I have proved via surveys, own experience and many women who I have interviewed.
In all honesty dating sites are the worse place to meet a woman for too many reasons I’m not even going to go into as that is a whole other book.
Best bet meet a good women in church, or out in a bout but stay away from dating sites they are filled with nutbags.
Still Looking 288
Crazyhorse @ 287
1. You state women are not any different than hookers b/c they want men at least 10 years younger than they are. Huh? Comparing middle aged men who like teenage hookers to child molesters and pedophiles makes sense. Your conclusion is nonsensical.
2. While I have noticed a number of women looking for younger men, the vast majority of the profiles I view indicate women are looking for men within +/- 5 or 10 years of their age.
3. Your perception of women’s attractiveness over the age of 35 is rather pitiful. I have absolutely no problem finding attractive women 35-55.
4. I do agree that many women do chase men out of their league. Most men do the same thing. Many of the women I’ve spoken with have also complained about the older, uneducated, overweight, etc. men making contact with them. Solution is simple – appreciate the fact that someone found you attractive and either reply with a polite “no thanks” or just don’t reply at all.
5. Yes there are many inactive profiles but on the sites I view, it is very simple to see when someone was last online. If a woman hasn’t been online in several days, I don’t bother to make contact. Problem solved.
6. I’m a big fan of internet dating for the simple fact that it gives me the opportunity to meet people that I’d never meet otherwise.
You sound pretty bitter – I hope that as an apparent God’s gift to women, you are able to suppress your hostility for those who aren’t as perfect as you. (sorry if this sounds harsh but I’m tired of the men/women bashing on this site)
Anita 289
Still Looking @288
Great response to Crazyhorse (need we say more with a moniker like that?) I, too, am sick of male and female bashing. It is nonconstructive and non-conducive.
doubtingthomas 290
Interesting thread and thank you for the furthering education…
read ‘em all but with that male attention span…
Crazy@ 287 does have a bit of a point even though he put it coarsely and came across as nasty.
A woman earlier asked herself ‘Where have all the cool guys gone?’ I ask
myself the same thing while looking at the women on match today.
Ten years ago (my mid-30′s), it seemed there were dozens of amazingly attractive girls online. Granted, the group of women that I view now has become much more specific.
Most of the guys on here with a problem seem to be lacking the one (!)
quality that is most desirable by every woman, that being confidence.
eddy 291
Still Looking @ 288
Best bet meet a good women in church, or out in a bout.
Good Luck!! Still Looking
John 292
“Biology isn’t fair to women. Let’s say a couple gets married and discovers that one of them has fertility problems. If the man has the problems, it will cost about $2,000-3,000 for donor sperm and a cycle of artificial insemination. If the woman has the problems, it will cost approximately $15,000-20,000 to accomplish the same thing.”
Baloney.
Biology cannot be more fair to women than it has already been.
Most women need only 2-5 good eggs in their life time. Biology gives each approximately 300,000 at birth!
Most women need less than 10 pregnancies in their lifetime (when you factor in spontaneous abortions). Guess how many times Biology prepares their bodies for possible pregnancy? 360 times! Month after month, Biology makes the meticulous plan that “maybe, she wants pregnancy this month”. Biology goes to great lengths to get the uterus ready to receive a baby.
Most women can complete their families and have all the children they ever desire within 2-6 years. Biology gave them a whopping 25-30 years for childbearing.
The fact is, most women take Biology for granted for so long that they only realize after it is too late that Biology is no respecter of those who waste its time.
And, you’re right. Men have only 1-2 fertility issues: it is either a sexual performance issue, or a sperm manufacture/release issue. Thus, it is easy to fix those relatively simple problems.
However, the body of women is extremely complex. This requires far more tests and lots of efforts to resolve their fertility issues. You sure won’t expect to be charged the same for the repair of your car brakes as for the repair of your car transmission?
John 293
For Noel #260
“ The unfortunate thing is men are not realistic, if you are a good looking man in you 40′s, you should be dating an equally attractive woman of the same age, your not going to get a younger woman today that is you equal because you are not her equal – she’s going to look at you as being old.”
You are the one not being realistic. You probably need to spend more time on this site to read Evan’s blog more.
Men in their 40′s don’t generally find women of their own age attractive enough, because those women are often too old to have strong, healthy babies without complications. I am in my 40′s and I look really good. I am also financially comfortable. I don’t even consider any women above 34 for a relationship, because I want to get to know her first, and after marrying her, I want to have a few kids (at least 2). She does not have the time, as far as I am concerned.
And that piece about younger girls finding us old? You must be kiddin’. You won’t believe how many younger girls in their early and mid-20′s want a relationship with me. I mean, seriously. I sometimes feel confused as to what exactly these women see in me now that make me so desirable to them. I am still me.
OK, maybe I now can be described as “successful”; that I want to settle down and I make that clear, or that I look really good for my age.
Miller62 294
Strange conversations.. Of course most men in their 40s generally want younger women.
Its entirely natural, and whilst no guy would want a woman just because of her baby making capacity, it is a factor. Older men can become very unfit and in that case they need to go to the gym! Men yes do age but there is more gap between a fit woman of 30 and one of 40 than a for man of 30 than one of 40.
The case between an attractive older man and older woman is very different. You wont get a female vdersion of George Clooney or Cary Grant. If a man wants a family dating a woman above 40 or even younger is uselss. Its nothing to do with him being immature etc. Of course also younger women simply are more attractive… but even an older woman who is attractive cant give children. Men can remedy things to some extent by keeping fit. Of course attractive women don’t want fat men with beer guts.
Ruby 295
Miller #294
<>
Childbearing capacity aside, I’d say that Julienne Moore, Michelle Pheiffer, Meg Ryan, Demi Moore, and Sheryl Crow are all around Clooney’s age, and still looking pretty good…
Miller62 296
Hi Ruby, Yes of course you are correct they look good. I just meant that George Cloony could have a family with a younger woman, whilst in the other direction it is a different issue.
I dont see anything wrong with women dating younger guys.. However, in relation to the author he clearly wants to have kids so people saying that he should get together with an older woman or someone his age are being unrealistic- and asking for van outcome that pleases no one. He needs to work on his statergies to find the one he wants. If he wants a younger woman, of course, it might be more difficult and in that case he has to widen his net. Obviously I dont know him so I cant say more. However, the idea that someone of 32 would be too young — i simply dont buy it. Most guys i know look fine in their 40s. — Women generally are very aware of their clocks so someone in her 30s might be please to find a nice guy who likes her- obviously it depends on many factors..And yes the author could always find someone abroad. Why not. We forget that there are a lot of educagted women in these countries– and very attractive… I live in the UK and most of my friends have married foreign women — Of course that is not a sample of the whole uk.
In my very limited experience the women who really go hard for the younger guys are often those past child bearing years. They just want fun and have given up on the biological clock. — they know that the relationship swith the guy often wont last…..
Lance2012 297
I can relate to the original poster. I think a lot of the comments impute actions to the original poster that he did not take. I have made the same observations about women’s online profiles, that does not mean I am looking for women younger than 35, I most certainly am not, my target age is 36-43 (I am 43). I too think (thought?) that online dating is an effective way to screen for women that want to have a family. I think the age ranges that women specify in their online profiles is just a response to the supply and demand dynamics of online dating. Women specify younger ages because they can, and men will still email them, it is an ego boost, they see other women do it, so they do it also. I do not think online dating profiles are reflective of what women want or can attract in the real world. Though I recognize the dynamics of the online market and I can understand why women react to it the way they do, I am not going to waste my time emailing some 40 YO woman that says she wants to have a family, but her late onset cognitive dissonance only allows her to be interested in dating men 35-40.
sephornet 298
John @ #293: “I don’t even consider any woman above 34 for a relationship…You won’t believe how many younger girls in their early and mid-20′s want a relationship with me.”
When is the wedding?
MILLER62 299
Supply and demand is of course a massive factor- if men want younger woman they have to lower their demands in relation to other factors e.g they might have to be prepared to have a longer distance relationship than they wanted. Women up to 32ish have a lot of power in deciding what they want — being beautiful and fertile is very much in demand.. a woman of 29 has much more in demand than a 40 year old woman. maybe 6 to 1– with a man i guess that ratio would be 2.5 to 1.. Woman do have to fully understand that most men dont care if a woman who want a child bearing relationship will choose a younger woman anyday… Telling the original poster that he should have an older woman is unhelpful — he should be told to raise hkis appeal to his target group.
MILLER62 300
back to the original question about women in 30s not wanting men in 40′s. Depends on woman and man — but woman who want families know their time is limited, and most especially after mid 30s certainly dont have that time to be that particular.
Tina 301
First of all, all this talk about “wanting children,” is putting the cart before the horse. If you’re simply looking to have children then you are looking at something superficial; a number. So you want to marry a number to have kids because you somehow feel like you’ll be immortalized. I’ve got news for you, you won’t. The problem with most everyone is they are not looking to improve themselves or their world and then their not looking for people with good character and if they have not themselves then they have nothing to measure it by. If you develop your own good character and look to share that with someone and develop a deeply bonded relationship built on comapssion you have everything, if a child comes of it or you adopt, then that is wonderful. What you have is too many people reproducing, not because they love raising children but because that’s what your supposed to do or it fills in their empty lives. If they are so full of love for children why don’t most of them adopt all the unwanted children? Then they get divorced or they simply lead cardboard consumer lives and shove their kid in daycare, torture it shopping, take it everywhere. Find someone your own age and develop some character, you obviously look only at the superfical, you needs some depth.
NonExist 302
Being a man in my early thirties I’d accept a woman of any age if she wanted a committment with me. What is important that our interests are close enough that we can enjoy each other’s company.
In my high school and university days I did chase after the “hot” women. But back then I was just interested predominantly in something that was pleasurable to the eyes and the touch and a sense of humor and laid back demeanor were just pluses.
Now that I am older, I realize that even with a great diet and fitness regimen that age is going to hit somewhat. So I’d just prefer someone with whom I can enjoy my time spent with them with little drama.
Even though I’ve pretty much given up on finding anyone, a guy can still dream.
Candy 303
Sorry the only reason men want younger women is because they are selfish and think it is their right to have younger women, the main reason is to boast their ego walking down the road to show off a younger woman, also they think younger women are horny, the fact is the only time younger women marry older men is for their money, (I know of younger women who marry rich men, but play with gorgeous young men their age group during the day), haha that teaches men.
We do not need men for financial gain in this era, when are men going to get it, I live in UK and have British Citizen but I got approached by men 20-30 older than me, stating that nob-British women will date old men, these men are wrong, yes, if one does not have visa one will date and marry an older man.
People do not believe my age, I look 12 years younger than my age, in real life many young men ask me out, but on internet dating old men approached me, so I closed my profile and will not go there.
One man who is 20 years older than me approached me and I told him that I did not fancy older men, but I can be just friend, now he is dating an Oriental woman half his age from Philip who is student here, he is so arrogant, he says that she loves him for him and not visa and his wealth. He is marrying her soon. Good luck to him and all the men who think women love old men. I do not, in fact I find men my age group and older have not looked after their appearances as well as I and many women have. We women in our 40 and 50 these days look much better than men in our age group, no wonder we get approached by younger men. However, I am not into younger men and definitely not into boosting my ego like men do, but I am not adverse to dating someone 2-3 younger or older if he is slim and trendy. the type of music I listen to my son’s girl friend likes. People do not believe when I introduce my 18 year old son, they think he is my brother.
So to you men who think it is your right to marry younger women, remember we are now financially independent, unless you are millionairs, movie star, keep on dreaming about marrying these women, or you will get one and they will leave you with half of your wealth or cheat on you when you are not there, anyway you men cannot perform in your 40 as well as men in their 20 sor 30s.
In fact when I was on dating site I was getting very offended to get approached by these men, and their assumption.
Saint Stephen 304
@Candy
First, the majority of divorce cases are initiated by women who married men within a narrow age range, I.e. 2 to 3 to 8. I don’t have time now to look up the stats but i learnt that marriages with wide age range tends to last longer.
Secondly, you contradicted yourself when you made this statement.
We do not need men for financial gain in this era, when are men going to get it.
And here you said:
the only time younger women marry older men is for their money, (I know of younger women who marry rich men, but play with gorgeous young men their age group during the day), haha that teaches men.
If women do not need men for financial gains anymore – what then would you say about the women you know who married these men for their wealth, are they she-males?
Besides the majority of men (even the ones I know) who married much younger women aren’t wealthy millionaires – they mostly are men of average and slightly above average incomes.
Candy Said:
or you will get one and they will leave you with half of your wealth or cheat on you when you are not there.
Infidelity and divorce isn’t age related. Even men who married women their exact age still experience infidelity and divorce whenever the women gets bored.
Candy said:
anyway you men cannot perform in your 40 as well as men in their 20 sor 30s.
Since all the men your age can’t perform (and aren’t physically in shape as you are) why are you bothered about who they chose to date? You should also be dating men that are much younger, otherwise – judging by your comment – you’ll have an unsatisfying sex life. I bet you don’t want that.
Paula 305
I think Adam’s statement is very general; I’m 32 and have always dated older guys because the men my age were not as mature as I’d like. That said, I am an active person and I tend to be drawn to that type; I’d have trouble dating an older man who was unhealthy looking and inactive.
People have their preferences and these should be respected; Evan, I’d like to get to know Adam, if he’s interested in meeting someone who wants to settle down and have kids forward him my edress please
BTW, I am full employed, well educated, intelligent and well travelled.
NY Giants Fan 306
Lets see if I get this straight. Some of the female posters on here who are complaining about an older wanting a younger women is wrong, they are shallow, this and that. But then they say they want a man who is tall,have certain looks and have plenty of money and so and thats is ok. Talk about hyprocisy!
Also the comment from the one female poster awhile back stating she wanted a man that was tall, had a big you know what, money, same level of education but could be with a guy even though he was nice but if he would be too short, not alot of money, couldn’t be happy with him, that is so shallow. I don’t have time for women like that and those type of women can kiss the tailpipe of my 2011 Cadillac RTS!
Lamar 307
I’m in my mid 40s and don’t have trouble finding women 28-35 to date. I’m currently dating a 31 year old and there is a 28 year old who I run into frequently who has told me she would love to date me if I weren’t already dating someone else.
I think the problem might be in this guy’s approach.
I never go online to find women in the 28-35 age range. Instead, I have a large social circle that includes alot of people, men and women, in this age range. Thus I meet their friends, most of whom are of a similar age, and that is how I find women in the 28-35 age range to date.
The problem with the online dating scene is that almost the first thing she sees on your profile is your age. That’s BAD if you’re too much older than she.
Its much better to meet a younger woman in a social situation where age isn’t the first thing mentioned. Because if she finds out your age AFTER she’s attracted to you and has decided she likes you, then age is rarely an issue for many of them.
I have a story to illustrate. I met the 31 year old who I’m currently dating through friends. When we were getting to know each other she was telling me about a guy that contacted her on Match.com who was 40 and she thought he was too old. Yet here she is, 6 months later and going out with a 44 year old . . . me.
My advise to the guy that wrote in would be to expand his social circle to include alot of people in their early 30s.
Andrew 308
This never ends.
Kline 309
Of course the politically incorrect truth is being avoided here on several levels–lots of denial. Women want only to see things from their perspective and agenda. Here is the balanced truth and reality:
The vast majority of men simply find younger women far more sexy and attractive. It’s not a conscious/logical decision like “oh, it’s time for me to breed, thus I want a younger woman.” No, for most guys, they are just not anywhere near as turned on by women even in their 30′s, let alone 40′s (yes, even if you’re 31, you’re getting sexually old). Women in their 20′s will always have a much greater appeal (just look throughout history/art/writing/etc. to confirm this truth). And thus the counter balance of power: Women in their 20′s reign supreme, having whatever/whoever they want (as long as they are not butt ugly). In terms of sexuality (not value as a human being), women are candles that burn twice as bright but half as long. They must relinquish something for having had that greater power. Yet they come on here and complain, wanting their cake and eating it too. You had your chance in your 20′s to wrap all those men around your finger. You think that power should last forever in your favor? You always want to wear that ring from Lord of the Rings? Sorry but the balance of power shifts, it’s only natural and fair. Most men hit their stride in terms of career and finances in their late 30′s and 40′s. You think they want to have sex with a 40 year old woman vs. a 26 year old? Also from an evolutionary standpoint, an older guy/younger woman is far more natural and balanced. He provides more resources, she provides her beauty/youth, a fair exchange. The opposite just goes against nature and value. By defying nature, we create misery and lack of fulfillment. Our culture unfortunately has so demented and distorted our natural sexual instincts, particularly in the U.S., causing great unhappiness amongst both sexes.
So for all you seething women, am I suggesting that once you hit 30 you should just curl up and die? Not in the slightest. Again, we are talking about the sexual here, not human value, and there are far more dimensions to a human being that just sex appeal and age, right? Sex will always be a very selfish thing, but it is nonetheless extremely important. So while you’re in your 20′s women, own the world as you do. Revel in your power and raw sexuality, as you do. But understand and come to terms that it is a limited time window.
So am I advocating a double standard for men? Not at all. A man’s sexual power/attractiveness is more diffuse. Men never enjoy the concentrated volcanic power you had. Their sexual prowess is spread over a larger range of time. THAT IS THE NATURAL TRADE OFF HERE, deny that as long as you want (and discuss with your therapist if you need to), but it is the truth. So men will always chase the younger women. Does it mean they will get them or that there are enough to go around? It comes down to competition amongst the guys for the prize attractive females. That is always as it’s been. That’s why peacocks show their feathers. Men try to distinguish themselves financially, but in many other ways to stand out.
So the bottom line: women 35+ should date men 50+. Men in their 40′s should feel totally unabashed about competing for women in their mid to late 20′s. That’s what I do, and I’ve been very successful, and very happy.
Lfl 310
Kline
I posted a few weeks back stating that i hate (even as a women) women who complain about men who don’t call back but then have no problems blowing off tons of guys and expect that they should just “suck it up”. It is similar with expectations, guy has to be over 5-11, full head of hair, sucessfull but well travelled and down to earth, slim and in shape, well endowed etc…but if he turns around and prefers slimmer or younger women he and all men are shallow.
I don’t return or get back to most guys who try to ask me out a second time if i’m not into them, but at the same token if a guy doesn’t return my text i get mad, but i live with it and accept it as part of the dating game.
That being said, your comment will set off a firestorm, i’m 32 and still have no problem getting dates with men slightly younger and up to 5 years older…
Michael17 311
Lfl:
Why don’t you have the courtesy to get back to a man who took the time to meet up with you and take you out? No manners?
Michael17 312
Sorry to sound so harsh but I do find myself frustrated with the sense of entitlement many women seem to have when it comes to their relationships with men. We are expected to do the asking, the planning, AND the paying, and yet you still don’t feel any need to give the courtesy of even a response back? WOW. You sound entitled too, Lfl.
Sayanta 313
Lfl-
Well-said
Helen 314
Kline, you speak in broad generalities, but you really have no understanding of the woman’s point of view. So let me make it clear.
You wrote: “Men never enjoy the concentrated volcanic power you had [in your 20s].” Guess what: women don’t “enjoy” it, either; nor do we consider it “power.” We know we can use attractiveness to manipulate men if we want, but the vast majority of us simply do not want to do that – we don’t feel right about manipulating others or gaining things unfairly. So getting that much unwanted attention is more annoying than anything else, to the point where we actually try to hide our attractiveness to ward off aggressive male attention.
I am nearing the age of 40 and married, and STILL get loads of unwanted, uninvited attention from men. So your other premise is wrong, by the way. I will not be a hypocrite; of course it’s flattering sometimes. But other times, it’s irritating, and a smaller number of times, I get stalked. That is not empowering. There is hardly anything that feels more DISempowering. Getting stalked is just horrible.
I think you need to stop thinking of everything from a purely male perspective if you are trying to generalize across both sexes. You also need to realize that relationships are not just about who has power over the other. That’s a very cold way of looking at what should be one of the warmest human experiences.
Kline 315
The basis of this entire thread really flows from a growing anti-man hostility brewing in our country, stemming from several causes. Men’s desires and needs are becoming more and more marginalized to the point where sexually, we are 2nd class citizens. The proliferation of metrosexuals for example is good evidence of the rampant psychological castration of men underway, as well as these pathetic age insecurities being discussed here (give me a fricken break, a guy in his 40’s worried about dating women in their 30’s!!!). The internet hasn’t helped. The rise of online dating has been a huge catalyst to this effect.
Dating sites unfortunately create a massive imbalance, amplifying women’s ego to insane proportions, where their profiles become virtual altars for flailing suitors to come worship at. Now I’m not entirely blaming the women on this particular point, because after all, it’s the guys sending all those emails. But what’s happened is that the natural checks and balances of approaching women in real life have been supplanted by emails which require no courage or confidence to send, thus causing the vast and unnatural deluge. This has had a profoundly negative effect which has spilled over into real life. Women are now glued 24/7 to their new 3rd wheel companion, their trusty hypnotic cell phone, which provides an endless stream of ego exalting worship. This is part of what men need to compete with today when approaching women in real life. Can you see that there is something unnatural about that?
MEN AND WOMEN ARE EQUAL BUT NOT THE SAME. The whole age issue being debated here for men is just another manifestation of this castration effect, trying to force men to be women, and vice versa. The truth is, for most 40 year old guys, it is very unnatural to date a 40 year old woman. Much more natural is 25-30. This whole “age appropriate” phenomenon is just more male bashing, and in the end, bashes females just as hard because of the disharmony it creates. I’ll give a great example. I recall seeing a show in the mid 90’s before the internet explosion (I think it was 20/20). There were about 50 guys who flew out to Russia to meet potential brides, part of a special tour. Now these were not the Brad Pitts of the world. Most were fat, bald, short, ugly, guys who had very little luck here in the states, and most were middle aged, pushing 50. Since this was at a time when such an event was still quite a novelty for Russian women, there was a huge turnout for these guys. 100’s of attractive women showed up. You can guess where I’m heading. Without exception, all of these guys honed in on the women in their 20’s. We’re talking 50 year old men almost exclusively focusing on women that were 22-25, and summarily ignoring even women in their early 30’s! It was stark and absolutely unequivocally revealing. Now your first impulse as a women reading this will probably be to call these guys perverts, lechers, disgusting and worthless old men, etc. Go ahead and feed the rampant meme which has invaded your mind. The truth is, these guys, possibly for the first time in their lives, saw an opportunity to realistically go for what they actually have wanted all along. And that’s exactly what they did.
In the U.S. today, there are no shortage of beaten down castrated men in their 40’s who will automatically only consider women of the same age, as the propaganda has so warped them and lowered their self-esteem, that they feel totally unworthy to even consider dating a 28 year old for example. Now despite your protests women, I’m not putting down older women. I’m trying to awaken men to follow their heart and to go for what they truly want, and not repress themselves due to these truly perverted forces in our society. That’s what I’ve done, and couldn’t be happier (as well as the women I’m seeing). There is harmony and happiness in my relationships, not despite of, but because of the age difference (15 years on average).
Vicki 316
There’s a generational dynamic here also. Most women in their 30s and early 40s are Generation X. We are VASTLY outnumbered by Baby Boomers and by Millennials. Gen X women are spoiled for choice! Just as Millennials are reaching their late 20s and early 30s, the social stigma that used to prevent women from dating younger men is breaking down. As a single woman in her 30s, a woman can now date older men or younger men. The biggest problem she will have is finding someone her own age, since Gen X is overall a smaller pool of people, with a lower divorce rate than the Baby Boomers.
If a 30-something woman rejects a 48-year-old man in order to date a 29-year-old man, it might also have to do with the relative amount of baggage the older guy has (i.e. ex-wives, children, upside down mortgages, etc) versus the relative freedom the younger guy brings to the relationship. It would be easier for her to see how the younger guy will fit around her life plan. The older guy will have a lot of other commitments in his life, and might not be able to spend as much time with her, or be able to see her around her schedule, and give her the quality of attention she craves.
Gen X women are very lucky, from the standpoint of demographics. Baby Boomer women were faced with a shortage of older men (the Silent Generation was much smaller, and has a very low divorce rate), and were fretting about being more likely to be killed by terrorists than married. Given the generational dynamic at the time, it doesn’t seem an unreasonable fear for a Boomer lady. I think the whole “cougar” phenomenon really must have started with the Baby Boomer generation, since it is more adaptive for a passionate woman to seek solace from a younger single guy, than to accept being alone forever, or to be the “other woman” for a married Silent Generation guy.
Saint Stephen 317
Helen you said:
I am nearing the age of 40 and married, and STILL get loads of unwanted, uninvited attention from men.
Forgive my curiosity - but don’t you wear your wedding ring? The reason I ask is because I’ve never hit on a married woman, and one of the ways i quickly identify them is by their wedding ring.
I might be wrong in my assumptions – but I think that you send out vibes that says that I’m single and available cos I really don’t know how many men would stalk a married woman – especially when they know that hubby could just be around the corner…
Helen 318
Kline doth protest too much, methinks.
If you’re so happy, why need you write such a bitter and angry diatribe? Live and let live. If the OP wants a 30-something woman, let him want that. They like ‘em even older in other parts of the world (France & Argentina, for example). Maybe he and other men have learned to value women for something other than breeding potential.
You’re more negative about US men than any woman I’ve met. So if there really is an “anti-man hostility,” as you claim, it may very well stem from people like you.
Kline 319
Helen,
For a married woman, you are protesting too much.
The OP expressed that he is having serious DIFFICULTY meeting younger women online, and I’m explaining part of the distorted psychological phenomenon run amok behind it, which you fuel. I’m not negative about U.S. men. I’m giving them hope that they can get what they actually want, which is younger women for most of them if they are honest with themselves. If that makes you insecure (despite being married), that’s not my problem. U.S. men have been battered down and are operating in a climate where the fair market value of women has been hugely inflated (with online dating a big contributor to this delusion). A 5 is now acting like a princess 10, and a 40 year old woman expects to date a 40 year old guy, an abomination of nature. Yes, for a period in my life, I was very much affected by this, falling under the spell and wasting time dating women I had little genuine attraction for, but not any longer. I’ve learned how to handle U.S. women, bust their little ego intoxication, and bring them down to earth. I see guys going through the same thing here, cow towing when they don’t have to, settling when they don’t have to. With the right attitude and confidence, they can go for what they actually want and get it, that is younger and prettier women. That no doubt challenges women like you. But what you cannot see is that in the long term, this is better for both sexes, restoring a balanced market.
Evan Marc Katz 320
Kline,
Here’s what you don’t seem to acknowledge in your screed:
1) Just because unattractive 50 year old men are attracted to 25-year-old women doesn’t mean that they are good long-term romantic partners. Have you ever talked to a 25-year-old girl? She’s a couple years out of college, on her first job, and doesn’t know anything about anything. If you can be content dating someone who doesn’t bring more wisdom, experience or gravitas to the table, that’s fine, but let’s not confuse “I want to have sex with a 25-year-old” with “25-year-olds make great wives for 45-year-old men”. They don’t. Less than 5% of all marriages involve a man who is 10 years older than a woman – and it’s not because men have been emasculated. It’s because most men in it for the long haul prefer peers, not playthings.
2) You’re trying to awaken men to follow their heart and not repress themselves due to perverted forces in society. Really? Sounds like you’re trying to tell men to follow their cocks. And really, bud, most men don’t need your help with that.
3) The biggest reason that 45-year-old men don’t get 25-year-old women – no matter how attracted they are to them over their 40-year-old counterparts – is this: the vast majority of women who are 15 years younger than you think you’re CREEPY. You know who that leaves you? Golddiggers, Russian mail order brides, and women with serious daddy issues. Most women prefer a man who is a peer – within 5 years in age range, because they share common experiences. If you think dating is really all about “she has looks” and “he has money” (both of which matter, but aren’t everything), you will simply be in a series of relationships that reflect your reality.
But really, Kline, you’re just repeating something that everyone knows: men are attracted to younger women. Duh. Doesn’t mean younger women want them in return. Doesn’t mean that they’ll have a lot in common given the big age gap. Doesn’t mean that they’re going to forge a healthy long-term relationship given their different life experiences.
Kline 321
Evan,
U.S. men precisely need help following their cocks, which IS following their hearts in most cases. That is what you don’t understand about men, or perhaps it is a conflict of interest with what you’re trying pitch here on this site. I just noticed your business is all about catering to women, so no surprise you’d want to fuel their delusions (and you’ll probably censor this comment). And good job towing the line calling older guys CREEPY because they express interest in younger women. The younger women (in their 20′s) who I have sex with don’t feel that way, and I feel more alive than ever. I’m being true to myself, as many men in the U.S. can only dream of.
Ruby 322
Kline
<<I just noticed your business is all about catering to women so no surprise you’d want to fuel their delusions>>
You’re really on top of things, aren’t you? I’m sure you only”just” noticed EMK’s target market. No, you came to this site to deliberately spew your anger and frustrations, which is hard to understand if you are as happy and as satisfied as you claim to be. Of course, it’s women who are the delusional ones, certainly not you. it’s 40 year old men who actually prefer to date women their own age, or maybe even – shudder – women who are older, who are delusional, certainly not you.
Kline 323
Ruby,
Show me a 40 year old American man who is dating a 40 year old woman, and I’ll show you a guy who probably has low self esteem. Of course there are exceptions. If that’s what a particular guy genuinely wants, then god bless him and her. I’m referring to the vast segment of American males, average frustrated chumps, who have been battered down by women like you, and who no longer remember where there cocks are. These men blindly accept the company line here that age is equal between men and women in the sexual realm. Sorry to burst your bubble, but it is not on all levels, biological and psychological. This is nothing more than propaganda to pacify women’s egos. Yes, I am unhappy and frustrated to see American men being walked all over and objectified by internet-crazed women, far worse than men purportedly objectify women. I think you’d be best off dating a 60+ year old. Would restore some balance.
Evan Marc Katz 324
@Kline – I’m 39. My wife is 42. As anyone who reads this knows, my self-esteem is fine, thanks. I’ve just always preferred women to girls. I don’t think this is unusual, but maybe it is in your cohort. I suppose like attracts like. I have at least three other close friends who also married older women – not because they were thinner or hotter, but because they were simply BETTER.
In fact, if you want to take a poll of women who think that they were “better” at 25 than 40, feel free. I’m quite confident that most women (and, indeed, most men) feel they get better with age.
And since a wife must have more to offer than a firm ass, I would think that those other factors would matter a lot more than you’re suggesting.
In fact, I would submit an alternative explanation for your cockamamie theory above. My take is that average frustrated chumps are the ones without self-esteem. They are more likely to want younger women without life experience, brains or self-esteem, because only women like that will put up with the AFC. It’s the weak appealing to the weak.
Alas, this is a site for the strong. You’re not gonna find much comfort here.
sephornet 325
Kline: “…a 40 year old woman expects to date a 40 year old guy, an abomination of nature”
I’m curious about something. Once the 28-year-old girlfriend/wife to a 40+ man becomes 40 herself, then what?
Kline 326
Evan,
This site is for the brainwashed–for the emotional tampon pin cushion men who you guide your clients to so they can piss and trample on them in lieu of plastic surgery.
Yes, history is all about men chasing OLDER women. All the estrogen you immerse yourself in daily has clearly rubbed off on you and your 3 friends.
Take an honest poll of what age most 40 year old guys would like to truly date. I guarantee you it ain’t 40 year old women. It will be much younger. That is the reality which you cannot come to terms with, pitching your dumb theories about men wanting women of the same age because of matching life circumstances. Yes, men just love baggage, both physical and emotional, not too mention a woman well past her fertility. Perhaps you needed a mommy and married one or your sex drive is just non-existent. Good luck.
Evan Marc Katz 327
Kline – I let that through to show what a shallow prick you are. Good luck in life, man. You’re gonna need it.
Katarina Phang 328
Wow Kline, there are plenty men with healthy self-esteem in their 40′s (or even younger) would date women in their 40′s.
Katarina Phang 329
Oh and please, sexually women in their 40′s need guys in their 20′s, not the other way around (apart from that women is their 20′s are perhaps not as horny as women in their 40′s so yes in that way guys in the 40′s will be served better). Please stick to subjects you know best.
Mr. True 330
Oh ya?
I’m 45, never married, no kids.
My last GF was 13 years younger, half Korean, and Hot.
That lasted 4+ years…
But just like most of these overrated ”weapon-holders”,
she had lots of dudes after her!
So when I realized I didn’t really want to have kids with her,
or marry her dumb ass . . .
I simply allowed her to bounce to some chump her age, who proceeded to marry her because she got knocked up immediately after they met.
So I got all the pussy, and he got left with all the rest of the BS!
But here’s the best part! … I got ahold of my GF before her (who is 10 years younger than me, and 10 times better in bed than her), and I still bone her whenever I want. Gettin’ married is for dudes that don’t get pussy! And 30 something year old chicks are desperate, and easy.
(another comment I let through to show how pathetic some men are – EMK)
Saint Stephen 331
@Kline
If Evan’s sex drive was non-existent he would have been with a much younger woman. Women hit their sexual peak much later in life, so a man with a low sex drive will find it hard to keep up with a woman who’s gone into her sexual prime.
Greg 332
Kline has been reading too many pick-up artist forums. While some of the stuff on there is interesting, most guys on those forums are shallow losers who only want sex not relationships. Sadly as a society we are all becoming more shallow and selfish. Yes both men and women are becoming increasingly shallow and are only interested in using each other instead of sharing and giving. I see it from the shallow comments from women here, and the stupid adolescent comment of 40 year old men like Kline. That’s why the divorce rates are so high.
Vicki 333
Most over 40 men have self-esteem issues anyway, whether they are dating same-age, younger or older women. It has to do with declining testosterone, not society ganging up on them to emasculate them. If a man feels emasculated, it’s probably his 40+ testosterone doing a disappearing act. Do you think most 25 year old men feel emasculated? I don’t think so. They are on a testosterone high. Cranky 40-something men should probably just see a doctor and get a prescription already! Life is too short to feel miserable, paranoid, and angry. Feel good. Be happy. God bless.
Vicki 334
Also, Type D personality (negative, angry, socially inhibited) often predicts coronary artery disease. Kline should make sure his doctor recommends an echocardiogram next time he goes in for a checkup. “Shallow prickness” could be a symptom, rather than a diagnosis.
Have a great weekend!
justme 335
Evan –
Your comment at 324 was spot on: the weak appealing to the other weak!
thank you.
justme 336
Is Kline’s arguement that men are being emasculated because don’t just automatically get what they want, to what they feel entitled?
Sayanta 337
EMK- 327. Brilliant.
Also, you all have heard the story about a kid who went up to a blond lady and started screaming “your hair is blue!!” The lady walked away without saying anything because the kid is crazy. Kline is that kid. Walk away my friends.
But I will add this for kline- all those young women you’re supposedly bedding? Not happening. I’m calling your B.S. Even if a 25-30 year old is naive, she’s not stupid enough to go out with bitter, deluded, old men. Unless you really look 30 and are lying about your age. I’m guessing that’s not the case.
Ellen 338
I am 59 and have seen it all. Or about. It’s men like Kline that can still take my breath away. I need to go look for a paper bag. Excuse me.
Zaq 339
This is all far too black and white.
Yes older women have more maturity and gravitas. They are strong and know what they want. They have been around the block and are less prepared to put up with second best.
This is called entitlement. It is extremely unattractive to men.
I think it is ironic that as a woman loses her main attraction to men, her youth, her sense of entitlement increases.
The older woman is far more likely to have baggage and “issues” following previous poor relationships.
I find it hard to believe Evan thinks that everyone gets better with age.
That may be the case up to mid thirties, but my experience is that older people are more likely to be cynical, and younger people are far more likely to view life with optimism.
Younger people are however more likely to be insecure and suffer from low self esteem. Having not experienced life’s ups and downs they may have less empathy with those going through problems, or be unable to cope with them.
I can’t believe young women would consider old men to be physically attractive to them. However women are naturally attracted to men with confidence, status, wealth, charisma, and these qualities are highly unlikely to be found in young men. So no, young women do not have daddy issues, if they are attracted to older men.
Old women may also have these qualities, but these qualities are not attractive to men. Physical beauty is, and they don’t have it.
So we are left with the suggestion that men should consider the ‘practical’ solution, which is to date women they find physically unattractive.
Don’t get me wrong, I know many women who despite being over 40 are in great shape, but far more who are not.
Evan Marc Katz 340
Actually, Zac, you seem to have missed the point. There was nowhere that I said that you should date women you should find physically unattractive. If you find that paragraph, please point it out to me. What I did say is that most considerably younger women are NOT interested in considerably older men. The ones that prefer much older guys are likely to have issues, which is why they prefer much older guys. And the generation gap means that while she usually wants to go out clubbing at age 25, at age 42, he’s well over that world. Or she might not want to have kids for another 10 years, when he’ll be in his 50′s. Or she has a lot more energy than he does. Or he gets old way before she does. This is why less than 5% of marriages have a 10 year age gap. Not my opinion, Zac. Fact.
So my advice – to men and women alike, is pretty darned consistent: date someone who wants to date you. If you’re a 42 year old guy pining for 25 year old women, and you’re not getting them, then maybe it’s time to adjust. If you’re a 42 year old guy GETTING 25 year old women, I would simply ask whether you think this relationship is going to last. If you want the Hugh Hefner life, god bless you, but there’s no reason you’d be reading a dating/relationship blog for people who are looking for true love. I’m going under the assumption that all of my readers want LASTING relationships. So if you’re planning on marrying a woman 15 years younger because she’s the only one you find attractive…
a) What happens in 15 years, when she’s in her 40′s? Do you dump her?
b) What happens in 15 years, when you’re OLD? Does she dump you?
c) What happens with children? She might not want her kid to have a dad who will be an old man when he’s in college.
d) What happens when you realize that your relationship was built on attraction rather than values, humor and compatibility? Once those first two years end, the good sex can’t redeem how vacant and shallow she is…how she disdains you for thinking that you can control her with your money…how she longs to be around people her own age… All the problems that get masked by attraction come out… Which is why the divorce rate is so high. People think that attraction is the most important element in a relationship, and it’s not. It’s just the spark that gets it started. After that, you better REALLY like spending a LOT of time with her.
e) What happens when you marry her and she takes you for half of what you own? Because her interest in you was never really about you. It was about what you symbolized – the strong father figure she never had, the man she wants to please, but will ultimately rebel against… Just like your interest in her was never about her as a human being, it was as a symbol of youth.
To sum up, Zac, if you were right about things, no one fat would ever get married, no one over 40 would ever get married, no one who is less than a 7 on a 1-10 scale would ever get married.
Walk around a mall. Clearly that’s not true. So there are a LOT of people who have the capacity to choose people who aren’t 27 year old models. Apparently just not some of the previous posters on this thread. Which is probably for the best. These people shouldn’t be procreating anyway.
The Alpha male guy 341
I’ll break this issue down once and for all for those clinging to their denial on here:
Women are naturally and evolutionary much more inclined to date a man who is 10-15 years older than the reverse, notwithstanding Evan needing to placate above. They are more malleable and naturally open in this regard. This is a very important factor in maintaining the natural balance and trade offs between the sexes (and there are trade offs, we are not the same). The internet has distorted this truth enormously.
All men know there is a deep truth behind the gap between what a woman says and what she actually does. This very much applies to her actual openness to date older. If you blindly follow what women say on the internet, you will be lead very far from reality.
The internet has created something of an abomination of nature in terms of the online presence of women as actual women. They have become much more like men unfortunately. Everything is skewed in an ultra radical feminist way such as with this age difference issue, which women on the surface of their screens think is fair, but deep down, it undermines them as much as it undermines the countless men staring back at their screens in disbelief of the unnatural Frankensteinian attitudes emerging.
Fortunately, this pollution hasn’t fully carried over into real life yet. The bottom line is that when you engage REAL women in the REAL world with confidence (not internet profiles), nature rights its course again, and us guys in our 40′s are fully back up on the saddle with access to the young attractive beauties. Sure, this offends many women here because they are aging, insecure, or have become convinced their internet identity comes first. Should be a name for that disease.
Evan Marc Katz 342
Alpha Male Guy – you can talk about evolution all you want. Less than 5% of marriages consist of a man who is 10 years older than his wife. That has nothing to do with my “position” on things. That’s just the way things are. Find me a valid statistic to prove me wrong and I’ll concede your correctness. Until then, however, YOU have to admit that men marrying women 10-15 years younger is the big exception, and not the rule. I’m guessing it’s not because guys like you don’t want 27-year-old women. The reason that 95% of marriages are among people who can be considered peers is for two simple reasons: a) most younger women are creeped out by much older men and b) many older men, apparently, think that they can be happy finding love with women closer to their age.
You may have your righteous indignance, my friend, but I have the facts.
P.S. And frankly, if the internet has done anything to skew things in dating, it’s in leveling the playing field so that men think they have the option of continually “trading up”. Alas, if you pay attention to what women 25-35 are looking for, less than 20% are open to men over 42. As for those 20%, AMG, they’re all yours. Let me know when you’ve established a safe, healthy relationship with a woman 15 years younger.
The Alpha male guy 343
Even,
Perhaps you believe that marriage is the only “healthy” relationship option for guys. That’s very much thinking from the female bias. And you keep quoting statistics only applying to that narrow choice. How many women in their mid to late 20′s have dated men quite a bit older, especially in big cities? I guarantee you it’s much higher than 5%.
And who says everything has to last forever to be healthy? You are in denial about that my friend. We all die. Relationships and marriages routinely die. LTR”S are not the holy grail you make them out to be for all men. They are often full of stagnation and lack of growth. More men than you’d ever probably care to admit would genuinely benefit the most from intense short term relationships, where they get to experience peak arousal levels. Yes, that is what most men crave and need, peak sexual arousal experiences. Most marriages are a graveyard for that. And what demographic of women are best fitted to provide men with what they truly desire? Yes, you guessed it, younger hotter women (who themselves get to fair exchange being with a man who is more experienced, wordly, wiser, confident, interesting, financially secure, etc. albeit with some looks trade offs). I know these truths are very challenging for you and many women to accept on here, but they are what they are.
Sayanta 344
Alpha male-
Im 33. Friends are all 32-35. None of us ever have or ever plan to date men over a decade older. Then again, none of us are gold diggers with daddy issues.
If you just walk down the street and look at any couple (especially with kids) that you see, you’ll notice that they’re all the same age.
Looks like YOU’RE the one in denial.
As a early-thirties woman with lots of friends in the same age range, I will speak for 95% of the 30-something population and say WE DO NOT WANT TO DATE MEN OVER 40!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ps- as a side note, that minuscule minority of women who ARE married to much older men probably married rock stars.
AllenB 345
Evolution? Evolution gave us big honkin’ brains and make human interactions a lot more complex than just ‘breed woman most likely to make strong children.’ Evolution does make us hungry when we need food, and want water when we are thirsty, but hey, my big ol’ brain helps me wait until the next exit instead of stopping the car on the shoulder to eat bugs and drink out of a puddle.
Besides, if it really was evolution driving male behavior we would be most attracted to heavy women (successful food gatherer and not likely to starve their fetus during pregnancy if there is a drought) with a little age (hasn’t died in childbirth yet), and long teeth (haven’t worn them down eating stone ground corn so won’t starve while the child is small.)
I am tired of reading how “men evolved to hunt and pursue” and “men like this” and “we evolved to be attracted to women with silicone breasts, long shiny hair, impractical fingernails and lips pumped up with saline.”
I think even Evan takes the “men are this way because of evolution” line of reasoning a little too far when recommending how women ought to behave, but Kline and company are operating in the Twilight Zone. They reduce men to the level of pheromone sensing moths that will breed anything that stimulates their ganglia properly asserting that men’s brains and emotions play no role in how they relate to women.
I particularly chuckled at the generalizationin Kline 315. He assumed the unmarried 50 y.o.s with ‘no luck’ in the U.S. going to Russia to find brides were representative of all men. Somehow I think that population was not an representative cross section. People are either single for a season, or single for a reason.
Evan Marc Katz 346
No denial here, AlphaMaleGuy.
You just seem to have missed the memo that I’m a happily married father who gives relationship advice to women who are looking for long-lasting love.
If my mandate were to tell 45 year old men how to hook up with young hot women for a series of intense short term relationships before dying old alone, you’d have a point.
But the fact that you wouldn’t date a woman your own age? That has very little to do with what I do here. More like a Millionaire Matchmaker problem. And you see how well those relationships go…
The Alpha male guy 347
Sayanta,
At 33, you are actually too old for me. My cut off is 31, and I’m in my 40′s. I keep multiple healthy (non gold digger) relationships with women in their 20′s.
Protest as much as you wish. You are a woman and women rarely do as they say, especially on the steroid internet.
If you only believe the internet, guys in their 40′s would give up trying to meet younger women and only date “age appropriate” women in their 40′s. Reality doesn’t match this and that’s what I’m here to say. Goodbye.
Katarina Phang 348
WTF, I’m sorry, alpha male guy or Kline or whatever….!!
When I was 25, the oldest guy I wanted to date was 31 or 32, not 42! Sorry I had my own dad and I was happy with him. Didn’t need another father figure. It was a turn off. And there were plenty very attractive guys in their early 30′s who would date me, why would I bother with old geezers like you? (that was my opinion back then).
Some young women do love much older guys for reasons Evan mentioned.
Please, stick with the stuff you know best.
Katarina Phang 349
And please, there was no internet to blame back then either!!
sephornet 350
Darn, The Alpha male guy. I dated and married pre-Internet, and sadly, I missed having men like you telling me when I was 20-something that I was supposed to be attracted to middle-aged men instead of those my age. If I had only known.
Saint Stephen 351
@Sayanta (#344)
Serena Williams father, after divorcing their mum got married to a woman the age of his daugther (30yo).
He’s not a rock star, neither is he wealthy. He’s just okay for a man and financially well to do.
And on your second point about couples you see on everyday life being the same age – hello? couples don’t go about with a breast plate of age boldly written on it.
My dad is ten years older than my mum, but if you see them now they look just about the same age. The couple I know with just two years gap – the woman now looks like the guy’s mum.
You can also take Brad Pitt and Jolie for example, if they weren’t celebrities – i guess they would pass for couples of same age on your list of everyday people.
Except a woman doesn’t want to have a family, she’d be foolish not to date or marry a man ten or nine years older. After series of pregnancy and child birth, coupled with lactating periods - estrogen’s start’s taking is toll on the body and that’s when you start experiencing rapid sagging breast and cellulite covered body parts. I guess that’s explains why Jennifer Anniston still looks very good for her age.
If you strictly insist on marrying someone of your same age then you must be ready to visit the gym on a marathon basis – after you are done with child births, or else you stand the chance of losing your man if he suddenly stop feeling attracted towards you because you now look older and (probably fatter) and don’t just do it for him anymore.
Katarina Phang 352
Sephornet, LOL… Alpha male guy is living in his own fantasy land. Yeah tell every 20 something that “more experience, worldliness, wisdom, confidence, financial security, etc.” is a fair trade off for a wrinkly bag (when you’re in your 20′s any 40 something looks old, let’s face it). And we’re supposed to believe these young women are really interested in you for you. Yeah right. Some middle-aged men have that charm perhaps but not many.
So who should the 20′s or 30′s guys date? Teenagers? Pre-teens?
In my 40′s now it won’t feel so weird for me to date a guy close to 60 (though sexually it may not work).
Zaq 353
As usual Saint Stephen speaks a lot of sense
I admit that Evan has never ever said that you should date those you find physically unattractive. However if you say that you should date those that are interested in you, and they are all ugly, how does that work ? Studies have shown that ugly people do NOT find other ugly people attractive.
I have previously pointed out the error in using marriage statistics for the whole population, because a good proportion of marriages begin when people are in their twenties and it is impossible for them to have a 10 or more age gap. We are only interested in statistics for those over 40. If memory serves there was an AARP study, and a separate science paper showing that the older the man, the wider the age gap at marriage, and yes this went above 10 years.
What is this about Malls ? There is a saying “Women marry men and hope that they will change, and men marry women and hope they will NEVER change. As Saint Stephen points out, women can pile on the pounds post marriage. I certainly know plenty who went to seed once they secured their man.
Also shared diet and exercise will lead to both partners starting to look similar after a few years. So people in Malls are a useless indicator. We are only interested in those who successfully entered a relationship in the last year or so, and only where the man is over 40. Don’t look in Malls !
Again Evan states that marriages where there is a wide age gap do not last. I know of no such statistic. From what I’ve read it appears divorce rates are similar.
I have a friend who a few years ago celebrated his second CONSECUTIVE silver wedding anniversary (over 30 years age gap). Two other guys I know in their 50s just celebrating the birth of children to much younger women (obviously). First time marriages. Another guy in my social circle who divorced and married someone 20 years younger, and has now been married 20 years.
They are all educated, higher status males though and I think that is an important point. Most ordinary men may not be able to pull this off, but from what I read, female readers of this blog wouldn’t be interested in them anyway.
Evan Marc Katz 354
@Zaq – You lost me with “As usual, Saint Stephen speaks a lot of sense”.
Katarina Phang 355
Here is the type of women-child alpha male guy would love to date. No surprise it only lasts a few months. It’s fine if that what he’s after. Most quality men with healthy self-esteem actually seek much more substance than just temporary sexually fling.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7y6dDQ129UM
Good luck dating 20 something, oh those 40′s men with stunted development.
Ren 356
Men are delusional. The original questioner to Evan is no exception. Older men (40+) are under the assumption that most women in their 20′s and 30′s desire an older man. Where they get this idea I don’t know. The media can be a dangerous thing, as it paints false ideas of what is and isn’t available to us in reality. Because America is still a patriarchal society, men feel entitled to certain “benefits” just because they are men.
As already stated women in their 20′s and 30′s are usually looking for men in their 20′s and 30′s to marry and have children with, not 40 to 50+ year old men. Women who say they want older men are usually looking for men with cash and will cheat with men their own age.
Men are uder the delusion that all women are open to dating older men when that’s just not true. When I was in my 20′s and early 30′s, I had no desire to be with a man 40 and above and neither did any of my single friends. Fast foward to now, I am 38 and I still don’t want men in their 40′s and 50′s. Why? Because I have no problems attracting much younger, much hotter guys. I am slim and attractive with 32G breasts, often mistaken for years younger. Besides, the men my age look like they could be 50 many of them, being out of shape, not taking care of themselves. I’m divorced with a teenaged daughter and when I go to her high school for things, I’m stopped by school staff and told to get to class because they think I’m a student. And I am constantly approached by men 30 and under. In fact I’m seeing someone now who is 30, I just got asked out by a super hot 28 year old guy with a ripped body, and I recently came out of a 4 year relationship with a man 7 years my junior.
There are lots of very attractive, slim and fit women out here between the ages of 35 and 42. Lots of them! If I could meet a 42 year old guy who is attractive, fit and a nice guy, sure I’d date him, but he wouldn’t want to date me because of my age and the fact that I don’t want anymore children. Maybe guys like this guy should give up on the kid thing and just date women their own age. You can have a fulfilling life without children.
The problem with online dating is that because you can be so specific it has made people picky to the point of being unrealistic about who they can and can’t get. It’s not just older men who want young girls online who are delusional, the overweight chicks who think a man should accept them at 250 lbs. are equally delusional. I tend to steer clear of online dating these days because I find it just doesn’t work. If someone is attractive they are attractive and I think people have less hang-ups when you meet in person and get that real instant chemistry. All the men I meet in person who find me attractive, typically don’t ask how old I am. The younger men I meet never do.
Men are also under the delusion that not only are they only ones who want younger and hotter, but they are the only ones who can actually get younger and hotter.
I just don’t buy the questioner’s story that the reason he wants younger because he wants kids. He said he ended a 5-year relationship because his partner didn’t want children. This means he was 37 when they first started dating, which means it still would have been easy to get women between 31 and 34. If he is as serious about having kids as he claims, why would he stay with a woman for 5 years knowing she didn’t want children?
I guess he assumed that at his age he’d still be able to land the young, fertile hot chicks a got a rude awakening to the reality that many women value youth and beauty just as men do. I know I do!
Katarina Phang 357
Oooops I mean “sexual fling.”
Zaq 358
@Ren
Why wouldn’t the fit 42 year old want you if you are as hot as you claim ? For the most part men are attracted to women who are young and healthy looking, not necessarily actually young.
Also men are not delusional if they actually do date women much younger than them. If all young women were as repulsed by older men as is claimed, then men would quickly figure this out. It is not our fault if younger women make themselves available.
We should all be looking for someone with whom we share mutual attraction and who enriches our life. Age shouldn’t come into it.
Unfortunately men are not attracted to old women. Women are not attracted to low status males. Attraction is not a choice.
There is no need to play the blame game
Ruby 359
Zaq #358
<<We should all be looking for someone with whom we share mutual attraction and who enriches our life. Age shouldn’t come into it.
Unfortunately men are not attracted to old women. >>
So age shouldn’t be a factor unless you are an “old” woman? And the assumption is that women of any age are attracted to “old” men, and that men who are elderly are not attracted to women who are their peers? I think we’ve seen on this site, over and over, that women don’t necessarily feel that way. It seems like there are many assumptions by some men here about what all women – and all men – want.
<<For the most part men are attracted to women who are young and healthy looking, not necessarily actually young.>>
Bingo.
Ren 360
@Zaq,
You are speaking in absolutes. And I love how you imply that women age but men don’t.
No playing the blame game here. I’m not one of these women lamenting over not getting a man in his 40′s since again, I get lots more attention from younger, hotter men. I never said I don’t attract 40 something men at all. The ones who are attracted are either married or have let themselves go and I’m sorry, I’m just not into out-of-shape dudes, no matter what age. But I don’t feel the need to HAVE to be with an out-of-shape 42 year old becuase of my age when I have younger men interested in me who actually take care of themselves.
Women are equally attracted to men who are young and healthy looking, even more than people realize. If younger women made themselves so readily available to older men, we wouldn’t be having this discussion to begin with, hence the delimma of the gentleman who wrote Evan baffled as to why at 42 women in their early 30′s don’t seem to want to date him.
Unfortunately women aren’t attracted to old men unless they have cash. To think that young women off the rip would find an old man who doesn’t have money physically and sexually appealing is unrealistic. There seems to be this misguided notion that a man being older is synomymous with status. If an older man has cash and status and a younger woman has an agenda, then yes he
would be appealing to her, but it ain’t because of his looks, I guarantee you that!
sephornet 361
Zaq: “…men are not attracted to old women”
If there is a man and woman who are both 40+, the woman is “old” and the man is __________?
RogerG 362
Using the term “peers” here over and over like a mantra is actually quite deceptive because it sweeps under the rug that there ARE significant differences between the sexes in terms of age and many other aspects. Trying to force men to date “age appropriate” is ultimately not that different than trying to force someone who is gay to date someone who is straight. There are many biological and natural precedents that support the whole older guy and younger women match up. That’s the wall we’re all hitting our heads against here. No reason to be in denial about that and insult each other. Sometimes you gotta just accept where the cards fall. But there’s nothing stopping friendships of all ages.
Zaq 363
You ARE playing the blame game
Please stop inferring things I am not saying. Women are so picky, men do well to find a decent woman however old the guy is.
All relationships are about WIIFM – “what’s in it for me”
Hence Ren feels that she “deserves” an attractive younger male because she won the gene lottery.
For the most part my opinions are colored by scientific studies of courtship behavior which you can find yourself , if you can be bothered.
Women are attracted to men with wealth at ANY age. A man that does not have status, wealth, intelligence, confidence, charisma or at least some of these attributes is going to struggle with women no matter how old he is.
A woman is going to struggle with men if she is ugly, no matter how old she is.
Men and women both become less physically attractive with age – obviously. Women after the age of 40 start to be more attracted to younger men as well. But the winning Ace card for women is beauty, and it has already been played. Nothing left but twos and threes. Men don’t have any picture cards left either, but if they are lucky, they may have a nine or ten left – they are still in the game (just).
It is not men’s fault that women value non physical attributes. Lets not forget that women are never interested in “peers” unless they happen to have these attributes.
So no one “deserves” to get the mate they want, but men AND women will leverage what qualities they have to get the best that they can. WIIFM.
No one is to blame
Ren 364
If there is a man and woman who are both 40+, the woman is “old” and the man is a sexy, wealthy man of high status who all 20 year olds want to throw their panties at.
And a woman 34 years old and above, while her eggs are old and no longer healthy, a 60 year old man can get an erection at the drop of a hat (no pump needed) and has the same healthy, viable sperm as a 20 year old man. The quality of women’s eggs change with age, while the quality of men’s sperm stays exactly the same through out their entire lives until age 100.
Susan61 365
@Ren: Men are under the delusion that all women are open to dating older men when that’s just not true.
Thanks for a great post. I agree wholeheartedly. Was never attracted to older men and I’m still not. I’m now 50 and I’m supposed to date guys 60+? Please. I often ask guys if they would want to date a woman 10 years older and they look at me in horror. It just gets worse, the older you get as a woman. I still look great for my age but don’t bother going online because I’ll be judged solely on my age. This society allows men to age but women must remain 35 and under forever. They might as well line women up at 45 and eliminate us because really, what worth do older women have in this youth-obsessed culture? Very little and it is sad and disheartening.
Katarina Phang 366
Ren, actually it’s been proven that the quality of sperm considerably decreases after 40. And the chance of producing babies with dawn syndrome or autism increase the older the father/parents are.
Katarina Phang 367
That is why sperm banks refuse anyone over 30 to donate. Men in their 20′s produce strongest and healthiest sperm. So yeah, men have a biological clock too, though not as severe as women.
Ren 368
@Zac,
“All relationships are about WIIFM – “what’s in it for me”
Hence Ren feels that she ‘deserves’ an attractive younger male because she won the gene lottery.”
I never said I “deserve” an attractive, younger male because I “won the gene lottery” as you put it. I attract younger and hotter mostly because they think I’m their age. I don’t attract men my own age who are single and sorry, I don’t do married dudes. Single men online my age want younger and I don’t meet single men my age when out and about because men my age are usually married. If I’m out at or bar or what have you, the men my age and older who I meet and talk to are wearing wedding rings 100% of the time! So what are the options for single women in thier late 30′s other than to date younger single men? Younger men more are also more flexible and open-minded.
“It is not men’s fault that women value non physical attributes. Lets not forget that women are never interested in “peers” unless they happen to have these attributes.”
Again you are speaking in absolutes. You are speaking as if women absolutely don’t care about looks. Again not true. I’m not sure I’m following you here. What attributes are you referring to? Are you saying that women are only attracted to men their own age if they are good-looking but if looks aren’t a consideration older men are more preferred than men their own age? Please clarify because I don’t understand what you are trying to say.
I personally don’t know any woman, family or friend, who is in a relationship or married who isn’t with a man around her own age. And all the women I know who aren’t men their own age are with younger men not older. Heck, when my mom remarried, she married a man 9 years younger than her 20 years ago and they are still married.
“But the winning Ace card for women is beauty, and it has already been played. Nothing left but twos and threes. Men don’t have any picture cards left either, but if they are lucky, they may have a nine or ten left – they are still in the game (just).”
You are again speaking under the assumption that ALL women lose their looks once they hit 40 and that’s simply not true. My sister who is 2 years older than me, is turning 41 next month. She looks even younger than I do. I’m 5’6.” She’s 5’3″ and weighs 110 lbs. and is very good-looking–and like me she has not a line or wrinkle in her face (my mom will be 60 this year and she has no wrinkes either. Not one). Yes, all of my siblings and I have won the gene lottery (my brothers are in their late 20′s and are also thin and look like teenagers) lol. Many of my girlfriends in their late 30′s and 40′s also don’t look their ages and are slim and very good-looking.
Steve 369
We are spirit fused with the physical, but unfortunately the physical still dominates at our relatively primitive level of evolution. It’s quite depressing reading all these comments. Feels like nobody wants anybody for anybody, but only for characteristics such as age, height, money, status, attractiveness, fitness, social connections, beauty, and even personality characteristics being no less commoditized such as quirky, funny, witty, etc. It truly feels just like a meat market with nothing personal. Nobody cares. Just give me what I want want want. All this mating baiting is such a cruel game, nothing remotely resembling love. Totally conditional.
Zaq 370
@Susan61
It has nothing to do with our culture. Women tens of thousands of years ago were putting rouge on their cheeks in an effort to compete with younger females. Nothing has changed, or ever will because it is all about biology.
Reality sucks. Women get a raw deal when they are older. Beta males get a raw deal all their life.
Ren 371
Steve,
You make great points. We all want loving relationships at the end of the day. But for the sake of this particular discussion, arugments on either side of it are going to focus on the physical.
Katarina Phang 372
Talking about looks and aging, I actually look better now than in my 20′s. Add maturity and all other positive attributes of growing up, I find myself more attractive as I get older.
It’s all about attitude and how well you take care yourself (other than genetics of course). Those who are attracted to you in your 20′s may not be the same type of people who are attracted to you in your 40′s (you may not want the same kind of people in your 20′s now anyway since you have changed so much) but there will always be people who are attracted to you at any age if you are an attractive person to begin with.
Zaq 373
@Ren
”I’m just not into out-of-shape dudes, no matter what age”
“I have no problems attracting much younger, much hotter guys. I am slim and attractive with 32G breasts”
These are your words Ren
You are looking at and placing a value on your “assets” which you believe enables you to discard men of lower value- “Out of shape or older” and enables you to date hotter, younger higher value guys.
WIIFM
I am not criticizing you for this as this meat market value exchange as Steve puts it, is the nature of the mating game and everyone does it.
Please re read what I said. Older men have less mating value as they are less physically attractive. In my analogy they no longer have the Ace King and Queen in their hand.
SOME men (not that many) have other characteristics that SOME women value highly which may yet win them the hand.
Men are primarily visual creatures, and so your slim 32G figure has some value, but as Joan Collins puts it “Beauty is like being born rich and becoming poor”
Women with good genes and have worked hard to maintain their figures can still be quite attractive in their early 40s and yes, attract the attention of younger men (mostly just for sex though).
However, at some point they will cease to be beautiful in most men’s eyes.
As you know we have the revelation in the news at the moment of a then 19 year old having an affair with a 45 year old JLK in the White House. This is an example of the power of status to overcome the drawback of age.
In my social circle I know quite a few men who married women decades ( plural), younger. I also know one or two women who did it too !
But these men and women were all higher value in some way.
You want to read into what I am saying that I am talking in absolutes. All men .. etc. This is definitely not true
Ren 374
“These are your words Ren
You are looking at and placing a value on your “assets” which you believe enables you to discard men of lower value- “Out of shape or older” and enables you to date hotter, younger higher value guys.
WIIFM”
I’m arguing this issue purely from a phsical standpoint in that men seem to think that only they have appeal to the young as they get older while women automatically get less attractive as we age. Besides, don’t men do the things you’ve just described with 40+ women, fat women and ugly women? Why do men get to have physical preferences but women can’t? When men do it, it’s called men being men, nature, biology, evolution, science. When women do it, we are being too picky. Why the double standard?
I should mention that I don’t have an issue with older men/younger women relationships at all. I just thinks it’s rather odd that a lot of men feel that most women desire an older man when it’s not true. I don’t get why older men feel entitled to younger women, pushing the notion that women 35 and over should be left out to pasture when they become equally physically unattractive as they age as well. Men have this twisted mentality that women AREN’T SUPPOSED to care about looks–that only they have that option and women should just accept that as life.
“Women with good genes and have worked hard to maintain their figures can still be quite attractive in their early 40s and yes, attract the attention of younger men (mostly just for sex though).”
A 45-60 year old manwho has worked hard to attain money and high status can attract the attenton of younger women (mostly just for their cash though). And older men want younger women for their amazing personalities. It couldn’t possibly be because they want to screw them.
However, at some point they will cease to be beautiful in most men’s eyes.”
So only women get unattractive as they age but men’s level of physical attractiveness stays the same? And what about those older men who don’t have money? Would they still be considered attractive and desired by younger women if they don’t have cash?
I was at a bar and a 60 year old dude asked me if I wanted to go home with him. I answered him with an emphatic no lol.
Zaq 375
@Ren
“what about those older men who don’t have money? Would they still be considered attractive and desired by younger women if they don’t have cash?”
No – they are screwed, unless they have high social value.
Like Steve I am appalled that we are just commodities with a fixed shelf life. Nature is cruel.
Let’s try again. Attraction is not a choice. Men are powerfully attracted to young fertile women. Both men and women are repulsed by “ugly”. Studies show babies are more attentive to attractive faces than plain ones. It is all hard coded in our brains.
I’m sure you would agree that both genders would be far better off seeking mates who show high levels of kindness and sense of humor and ignoring completely beauty, age, wealth etc that add nothing to relationships.
To do so we must fight our inner programming which is screaming “ugly – do not approach!”
So men do not feel entitled to approach young attractive women – they feel COMPELLED to do so. A mans testosterone level increases just being in the presence of a young woman. When a man looks at a beautiful woman his brain is stimulated in exactly the same way it would be by taking heroin.
In the same way women are powerfully attracted to men that stand out in a crowd and command other peoples attention. This may be because of physical attractiveness, but it could also be because they are charismatic, or hold some recognized position of power.
We are all junkies to natures hormones
Women ignore ‘average’ men, and men ignore less fertile women. In doing so they are acting just as nature intended.
No blame
And for anyone here who may suggest that we can easily over-ride these compulsions – you are deluding yourself
Susan61 376
@Zaq Women are attracted to wealth at any age. Last year when I was 49, a 61 year old multi-millionaire (and I mean MULTI) was *very* interested in me. I went out with him a few times and he was just getting divorced (his wife wanted the divorce). Nice person, a good guy, but guess what. I could not imagine kissing him, never mind getting naked with him. I am one of these strange women who has to be attracted physically in order to be with a man. And he just didn’t do it for me. I would have been set for life and vacationing in St. Bart’s but I would also have had to have sex with this much older man I wasn’t attracted to. So he went online and quickly found a woman who was 48, very attractive, divorced with two teenage daughters, and after six months he is renovating a huge downtown house for them to move into. She saw other attractive things about a life with him, whereas I did not.
It’s obvious that the ideal sexually for men, of whatever age, is a woman in her early 20′s at the peak of her nubility. Ok, we all know that. When I was in my 20s I did not even KNOW any guys in their 40′s (never mind 50s). I spent time with people my own age, my own peer group, which makes sense and is, er, natural. There was no reason for me to be hanging out with guys in their 40′s. Just didn’t happen and it would feel creepy. This was of course, before the internet existed. When I was ~35 a friend wanted to introduce me to a guy over 50 and I wasn’t interested for the same reason a 35 y.o. man doesn’t want to meet a woman over 50. I would not be attracted to such a person nor would I have much in common with him. And I realize now at 50, my prospects are limited although my 35 year male friend always tells me I could “be” with much younger guys if I wanted to (I’m not interested in casual sex). There are men my age who are interested in me but I am picky and it’s rare I find one I’m physically attracted to.
This topic is a sensitive one for me because I was dumped by a man (two years older than I), in great part, because of my age. We had great sex and a ton in common but he did not want to give up on his ideal which is a much younger woman. It was incredibly painful to be rejected for this reason although I still look good but I cannot compete with women under 40. I think he wants short term intense arousals, as one of the other male posters mentioned (my 35 y.o. male friend confirmed this as well – he said my ex just wants to get laid with younger women, isn’t hoping for a LTR). But what happens when my ex is old, maybe gets sick (inevitable with age) and needs a companion or help when things get rough? That much younger woman may not want to deal with that and could dump him. I think he is slightly delusional but due to his good looks, he just may score with a much younger woman.
To me, there’s not much in it for young women to be with a much older guy unless: a. she has issues that need to be worked out with an older man (e.g. daddy complex). b. he has a lot of money and she is not willing or able to make it financially on her own (e.g. golddigger). c. he is a celebrity, very good looking (e.g. power and status hungry).
My very handsome nephew who is 28 is engaged to a beautiful woman who is 29. They are very happy and looking forward to having kids and building a life together. Yeah, they are young and idealistic and certainly they will hit bumps along the way. But he *adores* this woman and he had to get his sh*t together in order to win her back after a 9 year absence (they were high school sweethearts). So I guess what we can expect is that when he turns 40 he is going to think about dumping her so he can find another woman in her 20′s. Or that she is a fool for marrying him, she should be looking for a guy 40+. It just sounds silly.
Katarina Phang 377
All I know only poor uneducated 20′s gals who look to improve their (and their parents’) lives will date and marry middle-aged men. That’s why middle-aged white men can do well in third world countries. These gals could care less about looks, they’re after your economical means.
Th educated middle-class 20′s will date and marry their peers (maybe 6 year older at the most).
So drop the illusion/delusion already that dating/marrying much older guys is the norm for most 20/30′s women. It’s not true at all for young women with options.
Katarina Phang 378
And mind you, these pairings aren’t looked at admiringly/positively in any culture because people know the reasoning behind it. It’s not love. It’s a business transaction.
The guys are looked at as sleazy old bags indeed.
Ruby 379
It’s so funny to hear all this talk about how men are “hard-wired” to want to be attracted to younger women only. Many 20 and 30-something men have no problem dating older women, sometimes much older, but the older some men get, the more they want younger women. I’d say it has more to do with the man’s fears about losing his own youth and virility, than some kind of “hard-wiring” that he supposedly can’t control.
Kurt 380
Ren does make some good points. It must be upsetting for women to lose so much of the power and attention over the male sex the older they get, but that is life. Women are typically very superficial when they are young and at their peak of attractiveness, so why should it be surprising that age is viewed so negatively by men when the men are older and the balance of power has shifted to their favor?
I was recently took a girl to a PF Chang’s for our first dinner date (our second meeting) and she actually complained about my choice of restaurant. The thing is that this girl is mid-30s and is apparently focused on her husband, yet is still very superficial and things that just seem inconsequential. She didn’t have a problem with my looks or white collar job, yet the choice of restaurant was a big enough issue for her to complain for some reason. PF Chang’s isn’t exactly McDonald’s but she apparently wanted me to take her to some really expensive place for dinner. I can just about guarantee that this women is going to be in for a rude awakening in a few years in the likely event that she is still single. I think she was able to get away with this type of attitude when she was in her mid-20s, but now that she’s in her mid-30s she probably goes out with men maybe once or twice and it is the men who are rejecting her,
Lee 381
Im the opposite of the guy who started this thread.. Im a 46 year old man. Im above average fit but no way in the world do I have a rock hard body. I still have hair and mostly brown, Im not tall only 5’8″ and Im a blue collar worker and have a son in college and have been divorced for 16yrs….. I will date any age because Im not stuck on an age but here is the thing I typically date women 10 years younger and seem to attract women 10 years younger. My current girlfriend of six months now is 35, thats 11 years younger than me also she is a career woman that is print model attractive. I guess what Im trying to say is that I dont see mid 30s women uninterested in mid 40s men. I think we all want compatibility, not a match just compatibility no matter who is what age.. We always seem to have an idea in our head of the type we want to meet. I always say I want a brunette woman closer to my age that has teenage kids or older or no kids but here I am dating another younger blond that has a five year old kid… Its about who wants you, If a great lady wants to date me Im taking her up on it, no matter her age….
Still-Looking 382
While it may be true that a majority of women in their 30s are not interested in men in their 40s, I have found the age issue to be a non-issue.
I’m 50 and the women I have dated have ranged in age from 32 to 62. Over the last month the ages have been 35, 40, 44, and 55. Based on conversations with other men, they also tend to date women in a wide age range. As some have said, “age is just a number.” The dating life is so much more enjoyable when one focuses on personality and compatibility rather than objective criteria (age, height, bra size, etc.)
Ellen 383
Everybody needs to lighten up and be more creative. To see past the merely physical or a number. We are spirit trapped in bodies, not the other way around.
In the last two years I’ve dated men who ranged from 34-to my current bf who is 58 (and HOT if a bit grizzled-looking but I’ll fix his skin! lol). I am 59 (just turned), but look younger, some days much younger. My bod looks about 38 still but I exercise a lot, including punishing tennis clinics. So I command a wide range I guess.
But before my current bf I dated a formerly obese man who had surgery and lost all the weight. His profile still said “a few extra pounds” but I knew from his verbiage he would be just up my alley intellect-wise, politically.
After we broke up, after seven months, (and he never knew my true age in all that time) I dated a black social worker once. Then a man, 47, I had talked to online for three years and only dated once before. I told him my true age, but after three years of being my daily/weekly online friend didn’t care- at all. I love that.
In the midst of all this living large, one day a guy I dated once, 27, called again to ask for forgiveness and another chance. So OMG, it is NOT true women can’t date younger, that only women age. Ever notice that men, when they are being petty and mean, will ALWAYS comment on a woman’s age/figure? I don’t hear them calling their own gender “old and fat”, do you? No, you men know which buttons to push….. You are masters at the double standard.
So imo you are all delusional. & tend to age faster than women if only because you don’t devote abnormally vast amts. of time on creams, procedures, etc. to delay the aging process. It would be unmanly for you to do so, too metrosexual.
If I had used that time writing poetry instead I might be published by now! Or a CEO I guess. lol
Finally, I seldom see still good-looking, fit men in their fifties, but many women celebrities (and everyday women- check out More magazine)still look plenty hot in their fifties (Brinkley, Russo, Barkin, Pffeifer, Jacklyn Smith, the list goes on and on)
So I’m all over the map, but my life is never dull, that’s for sure.
Zaq 384
@still looking
@lee
Your experience is that you can date women 10 or more years younger. The studies I have unearthed on the Marriage is good for children thread show that it is perfectly normal for average guys to be able to marry women 10 or more years younger. Women are NOT creeped out.
Women SAY they may be, but what they DO is completely different. But didn’t we always know that ?
What I cannot get my head around yet is how men on average pay are able to pull this off. Everything I have read from female bloggers here and from studies show that they should be less attractive.
The other finding is that marriages with a large age difference do NOT have a higher divorce rate.
The contention by women that younger women may marry for money, but the marriages will not last, appears incorrect. The devil however, may be in the detail.
sephornet 385
Zaq: “Women SAY they may be, but what they DO is completely different. But didn’t we always know that?”
You need to upgrade your information resources.
Zaq 386
@sephornet
I could show you links to the scientific studies, but you would no doubt close your eyes, stick your fingers in your ears and sing “La La La”
Nicole 387
@Ellen, mentioning a bunch of 50 something celebrities who have had a lot of plastic surgery that is obvious and frankly in my opinion not very good isn’t “proof” that women age well and men age badly.
The only thing I see as a woman is that women are more likely to use makeup and plastic surgery in what I see as not such great attempts to turn back the clock and hide flaws. (Although men are closing the gap and getting a lot of bad plastic surgery too).
I mean, I’ve seen Pierce Brosnan close up and he’s about 60 and I know men in real life who are 45-60 who are fit, have all of their hair, and would fit your criteria.
But I always wonder what older women are looking at when they try to mention someone with awful plastic surgery as looking like a 30 year old. Flattery from friends and people who want to sleep with you doesn’t make you indistinguishable from a 30 year old. What guy would tell a 50 year old that she looks 50? And what is so wrong with just being hot for 50? A 50 year old whose face is full of fillers(e.g. Madonna) and who has had her jawline yanked up with surgery and has a shiny Botox forehead does not look good and does not look young, and none of the women you mention would look very good in person without makeup and flattering lights. Is Madonna clearly putting in her time at the gym. Yes. Does she look like she did 20 years ago? Hell no, and the changes aren’t for the better (and I’d blame the surgery, not her age).
I think a lot of people as usual really overestimate how young they look, how realistic and effective plastic surgery looks (esp. if they are plastic surgery victims themselves), and I frankly don’t understand it. You’ll never look 30 again. But you can look like a well-maintained 50 year old, but nothing can bring back the natural glow of well-cared for youth, and no surgically altered, gym going woman has ever been mistaken for a 30 year old by me. It’s just not that hard to tell.
All this comes down to is people thinking that they “deserve” what they want and being online where people can easily hit on people who are much older or younger than themselves just serves to confirm everyone’s own biases.
Nicole 388
I mean, and what I see as a 30 something is that older women always want to pretend that I’m much younger than I am because if they admitted or acknowledged my age, they’d have to be honest about the fact that they no longer look under 40, and don’t in fact look my age at all. So that makes them pretend that I MUST be younger. But no, this is what being in your 30′s really looks like.
It’s like when I see teenagers now and think that they all look 12, b/c you think, “no way have I changed that much” only you totally have, and teenagers look the same as they ever did, and they only look like infants to you b/c you(including me) are old.
sephornet 389
Nicole: “…people thinking they “deserve” what they want…serves to confirm everyone’s own biases.”
Cosign.
Zaq 390
In dating, no one “deserves” what they want.
It is however transactional. You get what you give.
Gloria Twombly 391
Read: “Meet to Marry” by Bari Lyman. Go to her website!
Happy Dad 392
You know, I’ve been reading many of these comments and I have to say I think many of you ladies are full of crap. You’re pointing your fingers at men for their selfishness and you’re engaging in the exact same behavior. It’s just as ridiculous for women to expect to whore around until they’re 35 then have kids as it is for men.
Some of you are so terrified a man will see you as a “breeding machine.” I really don’t get this logic. I think there’s nothing a woman can do in their lives that’s more important than raising children. Yet so many women seem to view it as an insult.
My wife and I have been together since I was 17 and she was 15. We’re now in our mid-thirties. And no, we’re not some ultra conservative wackos that stayed together because we thought we’d go to hell if we didn’t, or anything like that. We met, we fell in love when we were kids and we stayed in love. From very early on we were excited about having a family.
So she got knocked up at 16 and we ruined our lives, right? Wrong! I went into the military, then to college and she finished college as well before we had kids in our mid-twenties. We’re both attractive and could easily find other mates if that was our wish. But any life other than the one we have with each other and our children would be horrible in comparison. I can’t imagine throwing away everything we have just to bang some chick I met at a bar.
But…..I can say with certainty that even if she had gotten knocked up at 16 things would have turned out the same, except we’d have less money. Because at the end of the day it’s not about “getting all your selfish desires out” or anything like that. It’s about love and the desire to have a family. If you’re selfish when your 20 you’re going to be selfish when you’re 40 too. Why does it take anyone, male or female 30 plus years to figure out they want to love someone and have a family with them. I don’t get it.
All you women who are pointing your fingers at men are just as guilty. There ARE young men who want to settle down with one woman and have a family. If you’re 35 years old and haven’t been married you’ve probably overlooked or dismissed dozens of them. So don’t blame your selfish lifestyle on the fact that you couldn’t find a man to marry in your 20s. It’s BS.
AllenB 393
Hey Dad, you don’t sound too happy to me.
Given your history, why are even reading this blog? And why do you spend energy and time casting your pearls before the great unwashed? Something about your tone and claimed history does not jibe. You have an axe to grind and that does not make sense if what you say about yourself is true.
Happy Dad 394
Nope, sorry AllenB. I’m perfectly happy. Not sure what makes you think my history and tone don’t jibe. Maybe you’re just unaccustomed to hearing from people who value love and family more than they value their genitals.
C 395
Sorry Happy Dad but I have to agree with Allen. The tone of your e-mail sounds negative. You’re judging a class of people you can’t relate to because of your status. And let me say if your wife having a child is considered a blessing you shouldn’t refer to her as “getting knocked up.” A more respectful term would be “my wife/girlfriend was pregnant with our child.” Furthermore there are so many things in this life women can do that can be as important as raising children. What an antiquated way of thinking for a man in 2012… Society can fault women like Oprah Winfrey for not being a parent but she has said on numerous occasions she feels she was called to care for children who were overlooked by others. I may not be her biggest fan but as a childess woman she has probably done more for others in her lifetime than most of us will ever do in ours. In some cases she’s done more for kids who were not hers than the parents who produced them.
You and your wife were obviously married at young ages. Unless one of you expires or your marriage ends in divorce you can’t possibly begin to fathom the struggles of singles if you yourself have not been in the world of dating and finding companionship. I find it hysterical when people who found their mates at early ages seem to know what the problems are of those of us who aren’t married with children. I do not feel I am a 39 year old educated single who is unmarried and childless because I was “selfish” and “dismissive.” I acquired my education, entered the healthcare profession and assumed like many my mate would one day cross my path. But it has not happened – period. And to be honest I have not put myself out into the field with the aggression that so many singles do. Finding a suitable mate in the world today for many is like having a full-time job. And despite my age a man I meet can (and probably will) exclude me because I DON’T have the sexual history/experience many women my age do. So “whoring around” has not been an issue for my life.
I witnessed my mother endure a 30 year marriage that almost destroyed her. I watched her stay married to a man who did not want to be her husband or my father because she believed in the institution of marriage. I always knew that she wanted me to to more than she did. She wanted me to acquire an education so that I would always know I could take care of myself. She did not want me to see marriage and children as an insurance policy for happiness. She always told me that there were great marriages/families in the world. But I had to learn to be happy with who I am because there are no guarantees the other factors would fulfill me or if I would even acquire them in my lifetime.
In the eyes of society am I past my prime and “undateable” an no longer reproductively viable – maybe. Are my dating options limited because I am almost 40 - perhaps. Did I have many men falling all over me in my 20s and 30s – not really. Perhaps I wasn’t flashy enough then. Or maybe because men (as well as women) knew during that time that their options were limitless. After all for some guys the thought may have been: why go after a woman who won’t sleep with me by the 4th date when there are 10 women who will hop into bed after the first dinner date?
I could go on and on but a I say all of that to say this: unless you’ve sat in a room and interviewed unmarried, childless women about why they are where they are in their lives don’t assume their “selfish ways put them there. I’ve known (and still know) several women who are “like me – older, educated, attractive professionals, with so much to offer and are doing great things in their lives and so much for others. And they haven’t had much luck finding lifelong mates. It’s just a shame that because they are single at later ages that such assumptions are made by people who don’t even know their stories.
AllenB 396
This is a long shot, C, but what metropolitan area do you live near? You have said enough about yourself to intrigue me.
Happy Dad 397
C –
I really don’t care at all if you think the tone of my post is negative. My intention is to speak the truth, not to make you feel good.
Your reading comprehension is lacking. When I referred to my wife getting “knocked up” I was sarcastically mimicking the typical reaction of people when they hear of a couple staying together from a young age.
I wouldn’t expect you to agree with my position since you now find yourself in the unenviable position I have described. I disagree completely that there’s anything a woman can do that’s more important than raising a child, just like there’s nothing a man can do that’s more important than being a good father. I feel terrible for any child whose parents don’t feel that way.
I realize you think my view is antiquated. Many people do. That’s why they spend their entire adult lives worrying about themselves and never become parents or eventually have kids who are raised by a Playstation.
Your argument is that I can’t understand singles because I’m not one. It’s fine if you want to employ that logic if you’re also willing to concede you can’t fathom the joy, love and satisfaction of parenthood because you’re not a parent.
I think education is important. I’ve spent much more time in school than most. My wife is also educated and we’re both still working to further our educations. Of course, I will encourage my children to get good educations. But education isn’t everything and it isn’t the most important thing. Neither is money.
Some of the women I work with are really smart and great to work with but I feel bad for their children. Some of them have husbands who make a ton of money and they’re only here because they “want a career.” They could be at home with their children every day but they stick them in a daycare 10 hours a day to be raised by strangers making minimum wage. That’s just as selfish as sleeping with every guy who comes along. Some people just don’t deserve to be parents.
It seems to me you have an unhealthy attitude about marriage and relationships in general due to your mother’s unfortunate situation and your childhood experiences. That is regrettable, but I can assure you my wife and I aren’t together because of our commitment to the institution of marriage. We’re together because we’re committed to each other and because we love one another.
I think you place too much value on things that aren’t important. You can’t understand why a man wouldn’t want an “educated professional.” Maybe it’s because they don’t place as much emphasis on your education and accomplishments as you do. Maybe they’re looking for a wife to love them and a mother for their children. Maybe you’ve missed out on opportunities to be those things because you were focused on what kind of car you drive or what neighborhood you live in.
Or maybe it’s because you’re too picky and the guys who would’ve been willing to settle down with you and have a meaningful relationship weren’t handsome enough or rich enough or supportive enough of your career goals, or whatever. Maybe the opportunities were out there but having a family wasn’t important enough for you to sacrifice some of your individualism. Whatever the case, don’t blame the rest of the world for your inability to develop a meaningful relationship with a man.
dave 398
Some observations:
1. You women do realize most these young, hot internet dudes are just looking for sex? That’s why most guys go on these “dating” sites….its a place to shop around for women to have a sex with.
2. I met my wife in college and )yes, unfortunately women age much faster than men. And I can tell you that its very difficult for a married man just hitting his peak in his 30′s to stay faithful in a promsicuous society where women give out commitnment free sex like its candy. Its ust too easy for single men, plain and simple. Women used to have so much power before feminism, but now sex iis just a commodity, its everywhere-feminism created a sort of golden age for single men. I have friends my age with a crappy job, living in lofts in crappy neighborhoods with 3 other grown dudes as roomates, and the one thing they have in their life is lots and lots of sex.
3. Some women choose to use the beauty and allure of their youth to attract desirable men for sex…or in feminsit speak -”adventures” and “experiences.” And they want to have their cake and eat it once they get to a poiint where they want to settle down. Life is about trade off’s so whay would it be any different here? No doubt, if a women remains fairly chaste snad she is young, she’ll have a much better chance snagging a “great guy” if she waits until she is older or after she has slept with many different men, then she has tougher odds.
4. Yes, most men hit their peak in their 30′s. At 22 we have boyish looks, we may be lacking in natural confidence, we must compete with men bigger faster and stronger, wiser more prosperous, interesting…..etc…so its a fair trade off. Men need time toi decelop the qualities a women finds attractive and that usually happens around late twenties-early thirties and beyond…..
Being a married guy who never played the dating game and never reaped the fruits of feminism and the abundance of cheap- easy sex provided by women these days andt gets an unhealthy amount of attenion from single women, I can tell you that sure, you may “sexual liberation” as empowering, but in reality it has completely and utterly transfered the power to single men. I get attention now I never got in my 20′s and I’m sure a lot of guys my age are feeling very empowered by this.
Hell, guys still have their careers, friends, hobbies, the car the house…only difference between today and 1950′s is that women have blessed men with a huge supply of cheap easy commitmnent free sex.
dave 399
And I’d like to add that my wife acknowledges the fact 32 year old man is not the same as 32 year old woman. I pandered to her every need and she had considerable power when we were younger and she had all the attantion in ther world from desirable guys of all sorts. Its different now, and our relationship is great because she doesn’t take me for granted. She realizes the power I wield now as a good looking, succesful 32 year old man, and she treats me like a king. And I treat her like she hasn’t aged a day since we met, and our marriage workls because of this. Of course its not that simple, but you get the idea. If she insisted on treating our relatiknship as if she were the hot young educated women she was at 21 and just ignored my growth into an accomplished, attractive man (no longer a boy), then we would surely have problems in our relationship. And therin lies the problem…many women refuse to acknowledge these biological differences and still demand the same attention they had before sleeping with a multitude of different men during their attractive years. The women that don’t screw around during these years….well they tend to met higher quality husnands. And they should….my wife gambled on me when I was young, broke and full of promise….men who were shunned by women in their early 20′s are now taking full advantage of their newly found alpha status in their 30′s and have every right to take full advantage of it. I’m actually convinced glora steinam is secretly a man who never wanted a family but wanted access to commitment free sex. Feminists have done more for bachelors than any other group on the planet.
Matt 400
Joe, women prefer to date older men as a rule and women in their 30s tend to date men in their 40s.
Susan61 401
@Matt. I am just one women but where do you come up with these generalizations? If you read most of the comments from women here you will see that it is not true. When I was in my 30′s I was not interested in men in their 40′s. I preferred dating men closer to my age. Older men? Sure 5, maybe 7 years tops. But 10-20 years older is definitely *not* the rule for most women I know.
Diana 402
This is the best article that I have EVER read. THANK YOU for finally pointing out that us women in our early 30′s DO NOT WANT MEN IN THEIR LATE 30′s EARLY 40′s (except those few women who have daddy issues who want someone super wealthy or famous- and the competition for those very few women is fierce and they know it).
I got SOOO sick of men very much my senior contacting me on dating sites when I was single even though I expressly wrote on my page that I’m not interested in men who were more than two years older than me. I would get email after email from men 5-25 years older than me and it drove me CRAZY. I felt like all those men were immature late bloomers who played the field for years and then finally woke up to the fact that they might want kids and were desperately grabbing for women young enough to be baby producers for them.
NOt only that, but I’m unattracted to most men that age, as many people wrote in here, when you are in your late 20′s early 30′s anything over 40 seems old.
Men need to wake up to the fact that they are not all George Clooney and that the dating rules that apply to famous rich guys in Hollywood DO NOT apply to them.
I have my own career and can support myself, so I’ll date men my own age, thank you.
Kakay 403
As a woman who is a few months away from turning 32, I would definitely not date someone in their 40′s, and probably not in their late 30′s either. I look about 25, act young, and am a late bloomer who is just now getting my life and career together. My friends range in age from 25-38. The 38 year old dates younger men. The idea of dating someone in their 40′s is totally unattractive to me. It also makes me feel like my education and career days would be down the drain. I won’t finish grad school until I am 35 and I want to go to work, not have kids right away. And as of right now I would rather be sipping cocktails with my friends at the pool on Saturdays than buying groceries or cooking dinner for some old dude. I have a friend who is 33 and engaged to a 42 year old, and they do not hang out with mutual friends because he thinks we are all drunk party people, and he is at that age where he just wants to sit at home, and has few friends to hang out with. They live in totally different worlds and it puts a HUGE strain on their relationship. And we almost never see her
What is up with what I keep reading here about men in their 40′s looking for the 27-34 group? OMG at 27 the idea of dating someone in their 40′s would have really disgusted me. Also, what in the world would they possibly have in common other than him looking for a younger girl because her butt hasn’t been affected by gravity yet?
There are some exceptions, and yes I agree that those single men that keep up with the times and style/trends have a much better chance. I have a major crush on my 41 year old hairdresser who is a total bad boy with tattoos. On the flipside, I got hit on this weekend by a wealthy man in his early 40′s who is probably used to spoiling younger women who probably date him for his money and I was totally creeped out by him and said I wasn’t interested. And he was initially hitting on me because he thought I was MUCH younger than I was. Not only that, If I brought someone like that home to my parents, they would look at me like I had become seriously desperate and looked for a new daddy figure. My friends would undoubtedly look at him funny if I brought him around as well.
Unless they are devilishly good looking, have money to throw around, and enjoy an active social life I would suggest they make more of an effort to finding someone closer to their age.
I am not saying I would not like to find someone to spend time with and build a relationship with. I want to find love as well, and of course settle down sometime in the future. But just like Evan says, women our age these days have so much more life they want to live before they settle down. I would definitely rather date a guy that’s 27 than 37 or 47.
Bunny 404
This was by far the best thing I’ve read so far. But I must say I disagree. I’ll be 25 soon and I know personally I’m not ready to be settled into a marriage but I wouldn’t mind being in one. However I do want to have kid or two as soon as possible. I’m a product of having 40+ year old parents who were married for 21yrs when they had me. I think it makes thinks difficult. They were good parents don’t get Me wrong but we mixed like oil and water does. Unfortunately in all of that i ended up losing my dad to a massive heart attack and left dealing with a sick disabled elderly mother. I didn’t get the chance to graduate college and due to his dying I couldn’t afford to go back and no more financial aid and now I’m in debt for student loans. Sorta made my so called expected social life broke unhappy and unstable. But I also refuse to wait until I’m 30 or 40 for a guy to realize he wants to settle down especially since I’m ready for kids now. I want to be there for my kids and spend time with them and do things my parents couldn’t and wasn’t able to do with me like run and play and roast marshmallows. I’d love to go to the mall with my mom but she’s too old to do so.
So you guys and dolls think twice about it. There’s nothing wrong with starting a family early. It’s for the better because everything cost money irregardless. But wouldn’t you rather see your kid graduate from college or would you rather leave them because you died early unexpectedly and they’re left with not only student loans but your bills as well.
Peter 405
In 2005 the UK Office of National Statistics did a study on age differences in marriage. They looked at marriages from 1963, 1983 and 2003. To keep things short and simple I will sometimes restrict myself to 1963.
Some of the findings. (the best is at the end). The actual data were Gaussian distributions so I am usually quoting medians.
In 1963, husbands were 2 years older than wives. By 2003, husbands and wives were the same age but this is almost certainly due to marriages involving an already pregnant woman turning into cohabitation without marriage. Those bad boys a couple of years older than the girl really were being trapped into marriage by the baby. They were the victims not the girls.
In 1963, adjusting for the 2 year median, the shape of the curve of age distribution of marriages shows that there were about as many older brides as older grooms, once the two year shift was accounted for. Over time, the age difference has spread out. In 2003 there are more marriages involving larger age differences (adjusted from the median) whether the bride or groom was older. The stereotype, often quoted in women’s monthlies such as Cosmopolitan (so I am told) that there was a double standard where old men married young women but older women did not marry younger men is not true for first marriages.
By the way, in the UK, 85% of men who will marry have married by 33. They start getting married in earnest at 27. (Average age 29). However, a significant minority spend about 4 years cohabiting so the LTR’s may start about 25 which is the average age of male marriage in the USA.
Divorce changes age difference patterns. Divorced women tend to marry men within two years of their age in either direction with a large minority at 10 years in either direction. 65% of divorces are started by women and of the 35% started by men, about half allege female infidelity so those could also be described as started by women. Yet, divorced men almost never marry women their own age or older. Excluding minor tails of the curves, they marry women at least 5 years younger and 20 years younger is more likely than three years older. (I am sure that they will have sex with a wider group of women but marriage – no). This is not what divorced women expect.
There is a clear trend about divorce rate and the age of the spouse. Where the woman is older, the divorce rate rises with age difference. Where the man is older, the divorce rates falls with age difference. The lowest divorce rate for any age difference is when the man is 20 years older. There is in fact a slight peak for divorces with a two year age gap. For 1963 marriages, the standard two year gap was much less stable than large age gap marriages where the man is older. Marriages with the wife 20 years older than the husband have a 40% divorce rate. Marriages with the husband 20 years older than the wife have a 30% divorce rate. (1983 figures, rounded).
The US is more conservative than the UK. Shotgun weddings may still take place. There is less cohabitation so the divorce peak may still occur for small age differences but there is not reason to suppose that the large age difference behaviour is any different.
In 1963, few women over 40 married. By 2003 the cliff was 50. Men had a 5 year advantage both times.
Conclusions
If you don’t form an LTR in your mid 20′s you are pushing your luck (either gender) to get a wide choice of options, especially after 33 (either gender).
If he’s over 30 and one of you is not keen on marrying then one of you is waiting for something better to come along.
Remaining never married men over 33 in the UK, probably younger in the US, are unlikely to marry, insofar as the marriage candidates who are not short, bald, fat and poor are mixed up with serious bad boys writing the Great American Novel, total wimps and engineers with huge salaries, conservative life plans but no social skills. This is where a woman needs Evan’s help to recognize the silver amongst the chrome. The obvious gold has gone.
Never married women can marry a younger man but it’s not likely once the two years is put back. 5 years maximum.
Divorced men usually marry someone much younger. (Sex with someone their own age is not the same thing). If the divorced man is less than 5 years older than the woman the woman should be cautious with her emotions.
Divorced women marry the same age or moderately older. From what I see of divorced women I know they get very confused between sex with younger men and a committed emotional relationship. It doesn’t happen. Avoid struggling young artists. Established architect better.
This hard data has helped me with my personal case of a 24 year age difference, not to mention different cultures. The data suggest a lower than average chance of divorce; there is no unforeseen monster of age difference out there somewhere in the future. This rather confirms my own thoughts. If you are still in the running when you are older you have plenty to offer.
The US Census bureau did a study of Mail Order Bride marriages and concluded that MOB marriages had lower divorce rates than the US average (perhaps lots of Catholic Filipinas, perhaps people aware that they needed to work to make it happen).
There was no analysis by social class. This was 2005. But in the UK, when such things were analysed, the ABC1 middle classes (a more restricted term than in the US) married 3 to 5 years later than the C2DE working class. These days, for D & E marriage is a minority event as is legitimate childbirth which may explain the disappearance of the two year age gap divorce hump. A good handful of my female classmates were marrying older boys because of rapidly appearing bumps dating back to their 16th birthdays or thereabouts.
Kakay 406
@Bunny…,
I don’t think you read this blog correctly. Okay so you are 25 and want to settle down. You mentioned having children early. This blog is about an older man who wants younger women, not early marriage, he is already 42. So would you date this 42 year old because you are desperate to have children? Then he would probably die way earlier than you and you would be alone with the kids sweetie. He would be just as old as your father was when they had you!!! My parents were in their late 30′s I understand the oil and water thing. I was raised kinda off and they were not very good guides in life. My mother passed away when I was 20 but she was not someone I looked up to or could go to for advice even when she was alive because she was born in the 40′s and went to HS in the 50′s, and had trouble herself. I am still messed up from it which is probably why I am still single at almost 32 and just figuring my life out.
For the most part, almost everyone I know who has gotten married around your age or a little younger has gotten divorced. And I mean like 80% +
My other guess is that maybe you are from a small town or something where people get married younger? The town I went to college in was like that, and everyone was 22 and dying to get married. I was like yay…I am barely old enough to get into a bar!!!
You might want to consider an old man if you want the family life with kids now. If you still have a lot of life to live, then you might want to hold off on the kiddos. Here is one example…… My friend is 36 and his ex wife is 26, he was paying for her to go to college and she cheated on him with a 27 year old she went to college with…And we saw her out one night with the guy she was cheating on him with…and my good girl friend said that guy the ex was with was a guy she dated from grad school. Talk about a disaster.
So you may say that now, but when it comes down to it, you may realize that you have so much life to live. If not find some old guy that wants kids now and marry him. Maybe you are that small percentage.
Kakay 407
@ Alpha Male Guy
I am 31, and look pretty young for my age. I live smack dab in the middle of a major city. I am 6ft, 135lbs, blonde/blue. I am not fat, or unattractive. But ya know what? You are that guy who comes up to me in the bar even when I cringe at the sight of you walking my way and gross me out; and can’t understand why I am not interested in you, won’t give you my phone number, and won’t accept you buying my drink. In fact, I don’t even want to talk to you. And I pray that I find someone so I do not end up your opposite, prowling the night clubs in my 40′s looking for men. I know of only a few women who can get away with it, and they look so young it’s amazing. And they also date younger men, not you. But they still fall under the category I am mentioning below a lot of the time.
Maybe it’s just the way I was raised, my backround/socioeconomic status growing up, or something else but most of the girls/women I know that are I guess what you call “beauties” and want that “confident” older man usually grew up poor, in broken homes or have some sort of daddy issues or a combination. They are trying to use their looks to move up in society. I know so many girls like that, and most of the decent, classy young women in their 20′s and 30′s do not associate with those girls if we don’t have to because we think they are trash bags who will sell their soul for that status. They are happy being trophies. And to many of these career bachelors who like to throw their money around at these young “beauties”, money doesn’t buy class! You might find an attractive girl, yes that is true. But will she be worth a damn, or love you as an equal? I doubt it. There is a good chance she will be a former stripper as well. Sometimes these guys adopt these girls as “fixer-uppers” thinking they can refine them like My Fair Lady. Most of the time they can’t and they end up cheating on the girls anyways or vice/versa. I see this with a lot of the philandering well-known plastic surgeons who haunt the night club scene. One very well known doctor who is always in the local magazines grabbed me one night and said “I know you don’t I? Did I do your breast implants?”
Bottom line: the girls who are worth their weight in gold, whether they go out several nights a week with friends or sit at home and knit, are not interested in you. They have a little shame in their game, thank goodness!
Still-Looking 408
Kakay @ 407
Your comments about not associating with poor girls, who probably have daddy issues, and are now trying to move up the social ladder reminds me of the snobs portrayed in just about every low-budget high school movie I’ve seen. You’re right, money doesn’t buy class. I’d add that the passage of years certainly doesn’t mean one has matured past their teen years either.
SS 409
The level of delusion I see from posters of both genders is quite amusing… folks on both sides boasting about how they’re much hotter and much more desirable to the opposite sex than they probably are.
Carry on…
Nicole 410
@SS, it reminds me of the personals that used to appear at the end of my alumni magazine (an Ivy). One man (of the same generation as the people writing the personal ads) finally wrote a hilarious letter to the editor wondering where all of these supermodels were when he was an undergrad, b/c the women and men were always 45 and up and claiming to be a hotter, younger looking version of some celebrity. They were TRULY hilarious and I loved reading them.
It’s been said here before but you don’t really look 10 years younger to someone who is 10 years younger than you. I’m in my 30′s and I’ve never been fooled by these people who claim to still look 30 while everyone else looks like an old man or woman.
And they forget that the people most likely to support the delusion are friends, family, or people trying to sleep with them, in which case pointing out the delusion won’t get you what you want.
I’m not sure why people aren’t just happy saying that they keep themselves up. We’re all cute or ugly to someone. It’s just opinion. You’ll do much better by just focusing on being the best you you can be instead of trying to convince the world that you are this ageless wonder. Plenty of people who are much older than me can most definitely run circles around me. Do they still have smooth skin? Nope, but you’d think outrunning someone 20 years your junior would make them happy.
I’d love to know where men who don’t have big wallets are able to regularly pick up college co-eds too, b/c I’ve never seen that phenomenon. When I was in my 20′s we were always grossed and creeped out by the obviously older men who thought they could play the numbers game to pick up someone half his age.
hespeler 411
I can vouch for how difficult it is to reign in a woman in her mid to late 30′s. I’m 38 and ideally I would like someone who is 33-39. My main goal is to have children or a child. However, one of my reasons for seeking women my own age is because I also don’t want the pressure of having kids. How I mean is that I don’t want to get together for the sole reason of having a kid and I feel if both the woman and I are in the same predicament agewise, we can have a “whatever happens” attitude. I also just feel more comfortable with women closer to my age. I went out with a 28 year old last week and we were dressed completely different – me: understated and classy, her: flamboyant and inappropriate.
Before I get any animosity from the opposite sex, I did not wait too long. I was married, my ex and I struggled to conceive and she did eventually get pregnant but miscarried and things went downhill from there.
While I do occassionally get dates from upper 20-somethings, I prefer the mid-30 types. In my dating experience, I have found the mid-30 somethings to be the most aloof, disinterested and picky of the bunch. Most of these women say they want kids but act in a very transient, serial dater manner. Either it’s a no response or it’s a one-date wonder.
Finding a mid-30 something women that stays in shape and has an eye towards kids is very difficult, at least online.
Julie 412
What he needs to do is look for a woman his own age who’s sorry she didn’t have kids and is willing to look at assisted fertility treatments and trying to use an egg donor. And before he even “goes there” on that, he might want to take a trip to his urologist and get a check on his sperm count to see if even with an egg donor he’d be a good candidate to use his own sperm for IVF, anyway.
It’d be a darned shame if he went to all this trouble because he had issues about wanting his own kids and his ticking biological clock, and then had his relationship blow up in his face because he couldn’t biologically father children.
He’d also need to start with some therapy. Sorry to say it, but what’s probably killing his dating chances is the impression that he wants an incubator, not a mutual, loving relationship with a warm, loving woman.
It’s totally okay to want your own biological kids–but if you can’t put that into perspective, including accepting that that just may not be in the cards for you, then that unhealthily unbalanced desire is going to be toxic to any relationship you might form.
SS 413
@Nicole 410
I can’t add anything else really to your awesome post. Yes, I can say I’ve heard folks say that I look younger than my age (34) and yes, I’ve had younger men show interest in me, yadda yadda yadda, but I’m honest with myself. I don’t look 24 anymore. 20-somethings don’t think I look their age. I think I’m a decent looking woman of 34 years who tries to keep herself up. And when I’m in my 40s, I’ll probably look like I’m in my 40s. That’s OKAY. There are very few women I’ve met who truly look 10 years younger than their age or who have successful relationships with all of these young guys who supposedly are approaching them left and right. Most of the attractive women I know and see simply look like attractive women in their age range… and their partners are age appropriate.
My husband was 37 when I met him and I was 31. I never saw an issue with a 6-year age difference in that sense, but to read some of these comments, one would think I should have held out for one of the hot 25-year-old guys supposedly checking me out all the time (groan) instead of some “old guy” who was ready to settle down, marry and start a family. I’m not stupid… he was a good man and I was attracted to him… there was no need to prove I could supposedly do better by going younger (or within a year or two older) because I supposedly looked so great and could be mistaken for a college co-ed. Yeah, right…
And yes, this definitely goes both ways, because I too know very few college aged women and early 20 somethings who were lining up to date men in their 40s or even men in their 30s. And those “big wallets” typically turned out not to be all that impressive… most of these older men who thought they had the looks and money to regularly date younger women were just regular 9-5 white collar guys like the ones closer to our own age that we encountered through work or other venues. But boy were they offended when we 20-somethings would tell them that they were too OLD for us, but hey, thanks for the date offer. Guess they had their heads blown up so much by the idea that they could get any woman they wanted.
Maybe if people of both genders were less concerned about focusing on how impressive they are and how they can hold out for “better” and younger because they look so great and feel so wonderful and have fat wallets, they might discover a healthier and happier relationship paradigm.
Me 414
Old men don’t BELONG with very young women. What they WANT is something else. There’s no match there. Younger women are confused about themselves, suffer from low self-worth and are looking for a father figure, which if they’re not strong enough, think makes a lover. I was strong enough and had enough conviction to realize I didn’t want a “daddy”, even had to learn this through my experience. I didn’t do any sexual with this man, not even kiss him. He played on being a “good person”, which I later just found him to be possessive and manipulative. Older men want control. They don’t care about the woman and her sex drive. They’ve had sex and at their age, they’ll tell you that “sex” isn’t everything but THEY’RE with a younger women. I held this man’s clammy hand when he’d practically beg me to, out of some fear, being confused, out of pity for him and not able to say no. Younger women are not sexually compatible with older me. I love my father but have no interest in screwing him. Therein lies, I believe, most younger womens’ confusion. They don’t know that their weak wills are prey to older men. They confuse attention with love and love with sex. I’ve never had that issue because I’m not turned out by people trying to buy my time. i only pity them. Older/old men with younger/young women eventually become psychologically and emotional abusive. You will find that as you grow weaker, they grow stronger. THey WILL, unchecked, begin to encroach upon your liberties. Their fatherly nurturing instincts automatically make them protective of you. How “protective” they become depends on the self-worth and courage of the woman. They either have children your age and are prone to father-like behavior or have no children, and their fatherly instincts are dying to come out. Also, regardless of a woman’s person conviction younger women use older men for support. How you can sleep with that, confounds me. I’d have found someone my age or close, on the side, to sleep with, but again I not loose and contain my conviction. My body must mean more to me that one would think. I simply thought this older man would die and leave me some money but a 60 year old man could live until 80, and my is now “dedicated” to not only watching a man age, wrinkle, lose testosterone, being crabby, but have to become his “nurse” when/if he can’t do for himself. I don’t know what a younger can find sexual about an old man unless they’re half a lesbian (maybe bisexual and just confused). I’m just saying, in my opinion.
justme 415
Hespeler:
I am 42. Let’s say I am reading a guy’s profile who is 43. And let’s say I think he’s intersting and cute and I am thinking about sending him a message. But then he lists that he is looking for a 35 – 42 year old woman – which I fall into that catagory so I make the cut off. That alone is enough to make me move on. I don’t know if it bothers other women; maybe it is just me (justme, get it?). I don’t know – I just move on. I know - you are looking to have kids. I just don’t see that you have that much to lose by expanding your age bracket slightly.
Joe 416
Sure, just expand your age bracket and ignore women over 39 who contact you.
Andrew 417
Wait until you hit fifty Bwah haha It sucks but so do people. However, don’t lose hope because there is always a glitch and you still might get lucky . But like I said , People suck and women for the most part are selfish petty creatures that just want power
Paragon 418
I’m 38, and the love of my life is 25.
My experience is, that when I was looking for local women, I simply couldn’t connect with women close to my age, despite repeated attempts.
I got the distinct vibe that they were so emotionally damaged from years of abusive partners, and repeated
rounds of pump-and-dumps, that their toxic expectations were palpable(ie. they were now resolved to snaring a hunk
with money, so that *when* he cheats they could reap financial gain for themselves and their brood of illegitimate
offspring).
I observed that this sample was characteristically aloof, defensive, vulgar, flaky, and frequently uncommunicative.
In fact, the women who I initially connected with were 18 and 19 year olds, who fell in love me with on sight(I am also
‘cursed’ by looking like an 18 year old – and at the time, I looked like a goth rockstar, lol).
It was pure infatuation on their part, but I would be lying to say that I didn’t find them more agreeable company – they were relatively inexperienced(much like myself – I was a *very* late bloomer, and had no relationship history to speak of), and idealistic in their expectations.
Their naivety was very refreshing, and I came to appreciate that despite the chronological gulf between us, I shared much more in common with young women, than my age peers.
Alas, I was not comfortable with such an extreme age gap, but when I reflect back on my experiences, I have to say
that I was never able to establish a connection with any woman older than her mid-twenties(which is what I ‘settled’ on).
So, yeah, it isn’t as far-fetched as you might think(and unlike with the whole cougar dynamic, which is a function of older women who are more sexually available/easier to younger men, there is no reason to suspect that younger women pair with older men for the same volatile, short-term reasons that tend to limit the longevity of young male/older female pairings).
Also, we have to remember that full male expression of secondary sexual characteristics occur over a greater span of their life history, while neoteny is an important factor in the expression of female characteristics(explaining a singular bias for young females in mate selection).
But, I confess to (intially)being somewhat perplexed that lower value women(older, less physically attractive women in their 30′s *with* children), could presume to be *more* selective(or less receptive), than higher value
women(ie. younger and more beautiful).
So, to any such women who are still struggling to find the ‘one’, I can only say it does not hold that being more selective, at a lower level of attractiveness in advancing age, will meet with greater success(than the past).
Paragon 419
On the issue of age-related effects in sperm quality, what the studies(strategically) fail to mention, is how age-related mutation rates pale in comparison to the predictable inbreeding-depression type effects(where deleterious
recessives can combine at greater frequencies in smaller breeding populations) of a male biased operational sex
ratio(as prevails in most animal populations, including humans).
Thus, female sexual choice(irrespective of age) is *always* a significant, and predictable factor with inbreeding depression-type effects(ie. with respect to deleterious trait frequencies), no matter how desperately the news media tries to spin the ‘blame’.
Jeff 420
Personally I am in a weird spot that somewhat relates to this. I am 32 years old and have always been looking to settle down. In the past I have been labeled as a “nice guy” while constantly being sat on the friends bench. This is not to be confused with the “nice guy” who essentially is nothing more than a door mat or a gift giver in search of returned companionship. No I am just a decent guy who lacks the aggressive, exciting appeal that many young women think they want. Now as I get older, many of my past relations are coming back knocking. Suddenly these women find me to be a great catch. However, I no longer want them. Yes I am a bit bitter, but why shouldn’t I be? Why should I settle down with a group of women who have passed up many great guys until right before their timer hit zero? As of now I am just enjoying them
. As a business owner and semi-retired model with Next and Wilhemenia I will have no problem finding a 25 year old women to settle down with in my late 30′s.
justme 421
Jeff @20.
People change. It happens all the time. Some realize what they were looking for was right there all the time – they just didn’t realize it. Some people change their nice status because they have become bitter and now just use people for their own ends. People change.
Leah 422
Honestly I am a woman who is in her forties,( but looks 27, and wears size two jeans) and I wouldn’t date men close to my age mainly because most men (not all) but most do not keep themselves in good shape, they do nothing about hair loss, or big beer guts, and they dress rather dumpy. Interestingly these are the same men that want a barbie doll looking girlfriend who does workout et all. There seems to be a disconnect there somewhere, it may be due to pop culture which portrays on TV the young good looking wife with the nice but dumpy husband,( think King of Queens) and other sitcoms, and almost every commercial. And yes looks are fleeting and many would say out loud at least that it’s superficial.. but if you really get the honest truth most people do want someone they are physically attracted to.. I sure do!!
It troubles me that many very beautiful women SEEM to be so desperate for a man to marry, have kids, and have financial security that they almost settle and or throw themselves, even fight over men that are simply not worth it.
I have been married and it’s not always a panacea. This time around I’m going for passion and romance.
Subsequently the men that approach me and are turned down by me because I’m not the least bit attracted to them have nothing but shock and contempt for me.
It’s as if they think I should find myself lucky, and grateful they showed interest.
Ladies bottom line don’t ever settle thinking you have to in order to have security and marriage, I have seen it with many of my friends and they are very unhappy. I have been with a wonderful guy who is ten years my junior, is a total hottie, is smart, talented, emotionally mature, and worships the ground I walk on. Those kind of guys are all over the place out there..
Evan Marc Katz 423
“I have been with a wonderful guy who is ten years my junior, is a total hottie, is smart, talented, emotionally mature, and worships the ground I walk on.”
Where is he now, Leah?
Candy 424
Some people look younger than their true age and I happen to be one of the lucky ones at age 49, I look 38. My mom is 73 and people think she’s 50.
I have dated guys 10 years younger, in fact I prefer it. I’m still very fit and like to do things, stay pretty much on the go. I was on Match and tried to date older but they seemed to be TVremote lover’s.
I don’t want children mine are older now. I don’t want a man 38 with yung children either.
When I saw the men in their 40′s looking for a 25 year old it showed me one of two things.
#1 He can’t accept he’s getting older it’s a mid life issue
#2 He’s controling and an older woman will not put up with that.
The part that is bad about the younger grils dating men 15 to 20 years older is the girls are cheating themselves of their own youth.
These men know in time it will only be a short time fling to fullfill their own need not yours. Most of them have had children or don’t want any. If a man in his 40′s has a child he will be 60 when the poor child is 20.
People should look more at a person they can grow with as they age. Look for a long term realtionship, think 10 years down the road.
If a short fling is all your after date whom ever you want.
Argus 425
If you have a good job and take care of yourself, you can easily date younger woman. You have to have what woman want, status. We want youth and beauty and they want to be taken care of and status. That is not a popular notion but it is the only exolainatin I can come up with as to why I, a 44 year old bold man with kuds can date veryattractive woman 6 to 12 years my junior.
Naria 426
At 34, I’m in Adam’s ideal target range, and would presumably pass through his “pre-screening process for dates”, and probably have potential as a breeder too. Would I want to be “selected” by him? No! A huge no! His post is full of red flags that would have me running for the hills. I can only think, unless he genuinely falls in love with a woman who reciprocates, the only women desperate enough to submit themselves to this clinical stud farm procedure he proposes would already be so maternal, they would be married with children in their twenties. Another red flag is hearing he left a long term relationship because she didn’t want children. Imagine if the new woman in his life proved infertile!
I would suggest, that instead of attempting to select a specimen for breeding purposes, Adam simply lives his life, doing things he enjoys, and hopes to meet someone that he would fall in love with, as from what he writes he comes across as a little obsessed and not too interesting. Alternatively, he might find someone from a third world country who has little chance in life through having a career, who would consider meeting a western man.
As for the age thing, there are plenty of women who date men in the 10 years older age bracket. For some reason, Adam just isn’t appealing to them. I’ve been to singles events where the women have stuck together as the men have been so utterly undesirable, its a defence mechanism and at least some decent conversation enables you to get something out of the evening. I remember being stuck next to an 12 years older man at a dinner event one night, and having to listen to his diatribe on his life and how “I wouldn’t understand what he did in his job as I was a woman”. He then asked the organiser to pass on my details so he could ask me out on a date! Some men simply have no idea.
So many men seem older for their years than women of the equivalent age, and very dated and/or sexist in their views. On internet dating, many of the men who contact me in their late thirties or forties complain about their knees, or similar. Its off-putting! When I went on a date with a man 12 years older than me, he was mistaken by the waiter for being my father (although that might have been revenge on the waiter’s part as he was so rude to him).
Younger men seem to lack that unearned arrogance that so many older men have, who seem to think you are very fortunate indeed to be favoured by their attention. They also work harder to impress you and are less cynical and have less baggage. Ah yes, baggage. I own my own place, I am wary of men who are looking for free accommodation because they have messed up their lives.
And finally, like the above poster, I am very wary of men who specifically want to date younger women and rule out women their own age, because I suspect they are controlling and find younger women more naive and easy to manipulate.
So to put this as clinically as Adam describes his quest, older men offer me no advantages and plenty of disadvantages, while men my own age or younger tend to offer only advantages and be a safer bet for me to invest my limited time in.
Karl R 427
Naria said: (#426)
“His post is full of red flags that would have me running for the hills. [...] the only women desperate enough to submit themselves to this clinical stud farm procedure he proposes [...]“
Adam said: (original post)
“I thought [...] that I would have no problem finding a woman in her mid 30s to settle down with and start a family.”
“I thought that online dating would be great since you are essentially pre-screening people for dates.”
Naria, I think you’re blowing what Adam said completely out of proportion. I don’t want kids, so I used Match.com to filter out the women who want kids (or who have them).
Children are a dealbreaker issue. If someone definitely wants kids (or definitely doesn’t), they’re just wasting time in a relationship with someone who feels the opposite way. Eventually the relationship will break up specifically for that reason.
Naria said: (#426)
“Another red flag is hearing he left a long term relationship because she didn’t want children. Imagine if the new woman in his life proved infertile!”
I had a serious girlfriend break up with me because she wanted lots of kids and I didn’t want any. I wouldn’t call that a red flag against her. If your partner is infertile, there are several solutions (adoption, artificial insemination, donor eggs). If your partner doesn’t want children, they’re not open to any of those alternatives.
Naria said: (#426)
“I would suggest, that instead of attempting to select a specimen for breeding purposes, Adam simply lives his life, doing things he enjoys, and hopes to meet someone that he would fall in love with,”
That’s a terribly inefficient way to find a partner. If someone was looking for a job, would you recommend that they simply live their life and wait for a recruiter to call them? Or would you suggest they be a bit more proactive in their search?
In my personal experiene, “hoping to meet someone” didn’t result in meeting many compatible women. Going out and specifically trying to date women who didn’t want children (or where the kids had already left home), that produced much better results.
THE BREAK DOWN 428
I literally just spent nearly two hours reading every post checking every link posted in arguments about fertility decline in male/female. My summation:
1. Men and women fertility rate DECREASES with AGE. Don’t care about the “miracle” baby a woman has at 46 or a male sires at 92. You risk and expose the child to certain illnesses (physical/mental) after that age. PERIOD. Even if the risk is low, don’t give your child the opportunity to have to live with it for the rest of it’s life.
2. Women, if your going to have children, don’t wait until 45 to do so. Looking for a younger partner does NOT decrease the chance that the baby won’t develop an illness.
3. Men, if your going to have children, don’t wait until 45 . Looking for a younger partner does NOT decrease the chance that the baby won’t develop an illness.
4. Don’t be old ass parents.
5. To the subject at hand before sidetracked, we (women in early to mid 20s) are NOT attracted to men past the age of 30 years of age. Not 30 something, just 30.
6. Men that are 30 are just fresh out the twenties ,can still connect to us.
7. If a 40, 50, 60, or even 70 (yes, story behind 70) is trying to get a woman in her 20s he is delusional if he think its for love or that she is seriously attracted to him. It’s just sex for him, money for her.
8. My apologies to you older fellas but its true. While hanging out with my friends dancing to Chris Brown “wanna see you strip” I don’t want some 40 year old man to come up and dance and bump and grind with me. HELL NO.
a. women in 20s like to party! Not everyday or every weekend but we do like to party with people of our age group (21-29). We don’t want men our dad’s age chasing us around at the bar. GTFO. You will only be used for drinks, SIR. I kid you not.
b. women in 20s like to shop! We like to shop with our friends or boyfriends. Not a 40 year old man. Trust, the only thing of yours that will be with me at the all is you WALLET. You will be used, SIR. I kid you not.
c. women in 20s like to exchange stories about college/work. We don’t want to hear a 40 and up talking about his time in college during the pre/peri/post HIPPY era! We will laugh AT you not withyou, SIR. I kid you not.
d. women in 20s we like sex. with hot young men! When their fresh out the shower, a towel hanging around their hips hinting at an erection. Makes us want to do all kinds of sexual shit to them. But, what we DONT want is some old guy removing his towel and blinding us with his fading/graying pub hairs! Sh*t is sick and a turn off. What we DONT want is you taking forever in the bathroom for the viagra to kick in! You will only be giving ME head for the night and I will leave you with the four hour hard on, SIR. I kid you not.
1. So, for all the old ass men claiming to bang hot young girls and getting all the “pussy.” Your not doing a damn thing! All she is doing is softly, gently, sexing you to sleep to sneak out and have some off the wall, head banging sex with a younger guy! Trust, he blowing her “pussy” out the frame and she loves it! The most enjoyment she got from you was your tongue. She probably has another lover, besides you, blowing her back out every night, SIR. I kid you not.
e. If you have to approach the 20 year old. She doesn’t WANT you. Your going to get used, regardless of what you think is going on.
1. If she approaches you, your getting used! You may be cute, but she’s going to use you whether unintentional or not. In the back of our minds we are all really using older guys. SORRY, SIR.
f. Older/younger generation have nothing in common when it comes to dating. You want to talk about shows that you grew up watching as child, for example. You reminisce about watching actually episodes of Leave to Beaver as a kid or The Brady Bunch and I’ve she’s seen is re-runs on Nick at Nite! (and probably not even that!).
1. If the only cartoon character when you were younger was MIckey Mouse and the beginnings of Walt Disney. GTFO. please. We don’t want you.
g. If your divorced with kids that are OLDER than her. She don’t want you, you are, FOR SURE, getting used!
1. We don’t know sh*t about changing diapers (unless its a younger sibling or she used to baby sit), or giving birth, or cutting umbilical cords.
2. You set rules/curfews for your teenage daughter/son. We had to live by OUR parents rules/curfews, let alone SET any.
3. Her parents are still paying her f*cking phone bill! She’s probably on a family plan and shares minutes!
h. Bottom line, your too OLD for a woman in her 20s. Go ahead on to 35 and up.
1. Maybe once the (then) 20 year old reaches 35, you can hit her up!
My story with an old man was this: he was f*cking 70 years trying to date me. I’m 23! He was a co-worker who I always had lunch with. Then to see a matinee with (after I broke up with my ex. He wanted to help as a friend, I got that) But, soon he was sending me videos of his grand children and wanting me to meet his children! wtf?
He even went so far as to put our age in percentages. He would say stuff like ” we’re getting closer in age each day. your 33% of my age now, when I’m 100 you’ll be 54% of my age and that’ll be even”
BACKTRACK : Did you actually do percentages??
When your 100? No offense, but you’ll prob be deceased.
What will a 54 year old do with a 100 year old man?
He had the audacity to get upset when I said there is still a 48 year age difference ( I miscalculated at the time) and he angrily corrected saying “its only 47!”
Who the f*ck cares? round it up and we’re talking 50. Why would he do that to me?
We were good friends… Sometimes he’ll randomly email me, but I just can’t date him.
If anything it would be sex with MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR benefits (Im talking paying grad school tuition, a car to drive to school, ETC) and I’ll need to be dead drunk AND blind-folded. He will get used mercilessly. I’m not a gold digger, but would sure as hell be one that day if you think your going to get me free..He knows it and I know it. Not matter how physically fit, a 70 year old man CANNOT satisfy me on so many levels or compete with other 20 year old men chasing me too!
DOESN’T WORK.
John 429
This title question is more of a statement..
Every man ( or woman for that matter ), is different. I’m a single 39 year old male, who keeps himself fit ( I doubt I’m going to look and feel much different a few months from now when I’m 40, or even a few years from now..). I served 14 years in the military, and the exercise / fitness has stuck with me..I have absolutely no problems attracting younger women.
I travel a lot, and when I do I stay in hostels full of young women..I often attract women in their early 20s, even as young as 18-19 ( I don’t date women who are more than 12 years younger than me..My personal “cut off” age at the moment is 27. Next year, it will be 28..etc ).
I don’t know on what planet you live on, but the notion that women won’t date men who are chronologically, much older than they are, is a farce. I believe, based on experience, that biological age ( your health, physique, looks..) and attitude / personality, has much more to do with it than a simple number, 40, 45..etc
From a male’s perspective..I remember when I was in my late teens, early 20s, I was ( and still am ) attracted to older women who take care of themselves. Older women who take care of themselves, are fit..Can be very very sexy. I assume based on experience and common sense, that women feel the same way about older men, provided they meet the above criteria. Are fit ( look good ), active, healthy, good attitude / confident.
That’s just my take on it.
Paragon 430
@ Justme
“People change”
As do opportunities.
Mate selection is a selfish endeavor, and males who were overlooked in their youth should not be expected to give any more consideration to their female age peers(who find their prospects squandered in middle age), than they themselves were given, in place of more attractive options.
@ Leah
“Honestly I am a woman who is in her forties,( but looks 27, and wears size two jeans)”
So, you are an atypical woman giving advice that appeals to the experience of an atypical woman?
“and I wouldn’t date men close to my age mainly because most men (not all)”
Then why disqualify age-peers if your observations are admittedly unjustified?
“Interestingly these are the same men that want a barbie doll looking girlfriend who does workout et all.”
Why would you assume that?
It has been shown countless times, again and again, that males are *less* critical in judging female attractiveness, than the reverse(just as we should expect).
“There seems to be a disconnect there somewhere, it may be due to pop culture which portrays on TV the young good looking wife with the nice but dumpy husband,( think King of Queens) and other sitcoms, and almost every commercial.”
The disconnect is in confusing fantasy with reality.
“It troubles me that many very beautiful women SEEM to be so desperate for a man to marry, have kids, and have financial security that they almost settle”
So, they don’t ‘actually’ settle, and still you find this ‘troubling’?
“Ladies bottom line don’t ever settle thinking you have to in order to have security and marriage, I have seen it with many of my friends and they are very unhappy.”
So, your ‘advice’ would be to never compromise(dare I say ‘settle’?) by submitting to someone your own age or older(that’s the topic of the thread, isn’t it?), and keep playing the odds no matter how long(in essence opposing the very theme of this blog)?
“I have been with a wonderful guy who is ten years my junior, is a total hottie, is smart, talented, emotionally mature, and worships the ground I walk on. Those kind of guys are all over the place out there..”
Perhaps this is because they are in high circulation.
@ Candy
“I have dated guys 10 years younger, in fact I prefer it.”
“When I saw the men in their 40′s looking for a 25 year old it showed me one of two things.
#1 He can’t accept he’s getting older it’s a mid life issue
#2 He’s controling and an older woman will not put up with that.”
Why can’t it mean the same thing that it means for you – an unqualified preference?
Or are these YOUR reasons for preferring younger men, as well?
“The part that is bad about the younger grils dating men 15 to 20 years older is the girls are cheating themselves of their own youth.”
You seem to paradoxically imply that a *choice* to date older men is somehow robbing young women of some irreplaceable characteristic of youth?
By that logic, would dating younger men ‘rob’ her of her experience at dating older men?
Couldn’t she just date older/younger men at different points in her life?
And more importantly, how can a ‘choice’, rob someone of anything?
“These men know in time it will only be a short time fling to fullfill their own need not yours.”
I think you got that backwards – older men have a reputation as more stable relationship partners.
“Most of them have had children or don’t want any.”
These concerns should be assessed on a particular, case-by-case basis.
But, of course, we are considering older men who *do*, in fact, want children(as in the original letter).
“If a man in his 40′s has a child he will be 60 when the poor child is 20.”
So, what?
Such a dynamic was common throughout antiquity, and persists in many cultures today that correlate with more stable families.
Hmm….
“People should look more at a person they can grow with as they age. Look for a long term realtionship, think 10 years down the road.”
And, at the margins we are considering, 10 years is insignificant, so what is your point?
@ THE BREAK DOWN
“You risk and expose the child to certain illnesses (physical/mental) after that age. PERIOD. Even if the risk is low, don’t give your child the opportunity to have to live with it for the rest of it’s life.”
Again, this presented no evident problems to cultures in antiquity, and other extant cultures, who seem to fare at least as well as ours(and in many ways better).
So what is the justification for your alarmist tone?
@ John
“I don’t know on what planet you live on, but the notion that women won’t date men who are chronologically, much older than they are, is a farce.”
A planet rife with faulty(and trivially falsified) generalizations.
John 431
Yeah, like Chronological age is the determining factor in physical attraction. That’s a faulty (trivially falsified) generalization. Biological age, a person’s physique, fitness, health..has more to do with sexual attraction than chronological age.
Moreover, within the next 30 to 40 years all of these discussions about chronological age and how it affects dating / relationships..etc will be completely mute, a non-issue. Regenerative medicine / tissue engineering, genomics, nanotechnology, brain imaging / scanning / mapping..all of these disciplines are going to play an important role in stopping and reversing aging.
Cross generational dating will be common. Provided we don’t destroy ourselves first.
magic mike 432
The flipside. When I was 37 I started dating a woman 10 years older than me. Even though she looked 10 years younger than her age it still never really felt right to me. I had a hard time picturing myself at 40 years old with a 50 year old woman so needless to say it didnt work out. Now that I’m turning 45 myself and I had seen her recently I’m very happy with my decision. She is starting to look her age and I myself look younger than 45.
Matt 433
The problem isn’t your age, it’s you. Start looking at yourself and ask yourself if you are attractive.
I’m 42 and I’ve dated nothing but 25 year old women for the last 2 years.
I walk to the walk, I don’t talk the talk.
Kathleen 434
Im 53 and guys tell me Im pretty attractive
Frequently guys my age and much older are contacting me online but their age criteria for women they want is anywhere from 28- 45 years old One even had in his profile DO NOT CONTACT ME IF YOU ARE OLDER THAN 46 Of course he was 55.
I blow most of these guys off because they are not accepting of someone my age and they say they will make me an “exception.”
David T 435
@Kathleen 434
I understand your annoyance at someone who would have dismissed you out of the gate. . . but the fact is, they didn’t. Go out. Have a good time. Find out eventually why they made that age claim.
Maybe they finally got tired of being rejected by younger women and wanted to give you a chance. Maybe they are playing you until something “better” (meaning younger to them) comes along. Who knows, even if they are the creepy latter, they might change their mind.
Judge them as a potential partner solely based on how much you enjoy being with them and how much they are into you, not on what they thought they were looking for when they first set up their profile.
Zaq 436
@Kathleen
Some people prefer dusty old books, some a kindle. Individual preference. Do you think any attempt to “shame” the latter will in any way change their viewpoint ?
So the only question is whether they are interested in you isn’t it.
Kathleen 437
David T Thank you for your kind feedback…You are right. I need to let go of feeling offended
Zaq Thanks for the analogy. Most of these guys do appear to be dusty old books but maybe thats why they are looking for someone to make them feel youthful
I end up dating mainly guys in their early 40S but I would prefer a guy around my own age
Appreciate the feedback
Fiona 438
I think Evan has this catch 22 situation of women 35 to 40 spot on (although I think the issue starts later at 37). Interest in me from men my own age online has literally dropped like a stone in a few months since I hit 37 as I have only had a few emails from men in their late 30s. At the same time interest from men 10 to 30 years older has rocketed on an unprecedented level. That doesn’t change the fact that I am just not interested in men that much older than me and these men really would do much better with women closer to their own age group although they clearly don’t see that. Obviously I know I have better chance of landing someone in his 50s but these men just look old to me. Women definitely prefer peers.
EGZQPL 439
Maybe they want kids and are concerned about mutant sperm/genetic defects? Male sperm declines in quality after age 35.
http://www.nytimes.com/ref/health/healthguide/esn-maleinfertility-expert.html
JustMe 440
I’m with Kathleen, when a guy says that right in his profile DO NOT CONTACT ME IF YOU ARE OVER 55 -reads as “I’m shallow.”. The 55 year old who puts 45 – 60 says something much more appealling. And just as they are free to eliminate others for whatever reason they want – so is Kathleen!
Kathleen 441
Fiona …( beautiful name by the way… my sisters name)…Interesting that you are seeing the drop off so dramatically at 37 . I don’t think you have to settle for a guy in his 50s but you have to have the best possible pictures and look as radiant as possible. (Id love to be 37 again!!!)
I have guys in their 60s, 70s and 80s contacting me and they don’t see the futility in that either.
Zaq 442
@Kathleen
Ignore the ones you are not interested in. However at the end of the day, you only get to choose from those interested in you.
Truth is for both sexes as they get older, they become less attracted to peers or older. Everyone has a market value.
I remember there was a dating agency that refused to accept women over 50; in fact I know a woman who was turned down by one.
It’s the same for short, or low status men – pretty much game over.
The only thing that you can do is make yourself as attractive as possible and accept with grace the unfairness of the opposite gender’s requirements.
Fiona 443
Kathleen – ignore Zaq! The vast majority of men in their 50s contacting me on-line will ultimately have to start contacting women their age online or in real life because the vast majority of women my age just aren’t interested in them. This is not likely to change.
If everyone just stuck to dating people in their own generation I can’t help but feel that they would have more success in general.
Kathleen 444
Fiona 443…Thanks Yes When I was in my 20s and 30s I was creeped out by guys in their 40-50s who hit on me.
Zaq…442 I get your point and have always only been able to choose from those interested in me You actually helped me feel better about the situation of guys my age looking for women under 40 but contacting me as an exception After you made the dusty book analogy I went back and looked at many of them They mostly looked in poor physical shape Some had that soft low testosterone look You made me realize that many of these guys are looking for something external to make themselves feel young. I guess thats easier for them than going to the gym and getting in shape !
Judging by the attention I get I still have plenty of game ! And as an athlete its not in my nature to give up with grace. One of the guys in my canoe club is 69 years old He’s in great shape, has great energy and spirit and Id have him on my racing team any day I aspire to be like him at 69 !
Zaq 445
@Kathleen
People are just attracted to what they are attracted to, it really isn’t about trying to feel young. Their own level of attractiveness doesn’t come into it. Their success however WILL depend on this.
As far as the dusty old book analogy goes, just remember that the book has character, it has a smell, a touch – it is sensual, the kindle is not. Some will find the book far more attractive than any modern gadget.
It is just down to individual taste.
Older men will mostly find it difficult to attract younger women, but if they fail they are as likely to give up as they are to date older women.
Same goes for women. I know someone who is nearly 30 who has opportunities with much older men, but none at all with younger men. Her choice is to wait for younger men to change their mind. Never going to happen.
Julia 446
@Zaq As a woman who is 31, I will tend to agree with you on that. I don’t even bother with men my own age, they are looking for women in their mid 20s. I have accepted that any man I date is going to be in his late 30s, I will not, however, accept dates with men in their late 40s/50s despite their attempts.
Fiona 447
Zaq, lot of women under 30 find men their own age and well into their thirties so I have no idea how you conclude that it will never happen for the 30 year old you mention. The strong likelihood is that it will. In the real world most people are still marrying peers.
Joe 448
If Zaq says this woman has opportunities with older men, but none with younger, what makes you think there’s such a strong likelihood that it will happen for her?
Kathleen 449
Zaq I hope you are not advising the 30 year old who you say has no chance with men her age Your outlook for her is extremely pessimistic and I hope she finds more encouraging company I also agree with Fiona that she will in fact find a peer. If she is attractive to older men then she must have qualities that would attract a peer .
Evan Marc Katz 450
@Joe – Please forgive Zaq. He knows not what he does. He’s a shallow and earnest young man with a cursory understanding of evolutionary biology and a weak grasp of statistics. He spends his time telling women here that unless they’re young and thin, they don’t stand a chance at love. What he doesn’t seem to get is that there are MILLIONS of men who DON’T marry hot, young women. So, if you want to disprove Zaq’s theory, without the aid of research, try this: Go to a mall. Take a look around. How many couples held out for their physical ideal? How many old, fat and ugly people are paired up? That’s right: almost ALL of them. People may be more attracted to young, thin and fertile, but the vast majority of us adjust for reality. Those who don’t tend to get left behind.
Zaq 451
Evan, your strawman arguments are not going to work.
My analysis of statistics is correct, but irrelevant here.
I’m not trying to put down older women, however it is clear to me that younger women have power in dating relationships, and older women do not. The power balance shifts as genders get older. I can quote other “dating experts” to back that up.
The point I continually make is that older women are acting as if they still have the upper hand in the power balance, and indeed increase their requirements as they “mature”.
The comments above about still being attractive to alpha males shows that they are not being realistic.
Women set their sights on alpha males who are in short supply and therefore have plenty of options, so will not commit.
We all have a value on the dating market, and I know you agree with this.
No one seems particularly upset about my remarks concerning low value men – WHY IS THAT ??
As for the 30 year old, well I don’t think she has ever had a boyfriend. Her standards are high. She has issues, which I think older men would have the patience to deal with and she has the attraction of youth – freshness, vitality which is worthless to her peers as every other woman her age has this.
I’m sure a younger beta guy who has been rejected by other women would want her, but she would not want him. Stalemate. Repeat forever.
Gottlieb anyone ?
Fundamentally you must be attractive to your target market. This applies to both genders. Do you have evidence that you are ? – if so great. If not, change strategy or give up.
What am I missing ?
Steve 452
I am a 35 year old white man, earn 6 figures, have a PhD in a hard science, 6 feet tall, athletic and regarded as good looking, sweet and good sense of humor. I am also somewhat shy. I always dreamed of a nice wife and kids since my early 20s. The problem was, white women did not want me in my 20s and I was lucky even just to get a date, which I always paid for and acted the perfect gentleman. I had several rejections from white women and one who even cheated on me which hurt (yes rejection hurts men and no we are not conditioned to just accept rejection easily just because we are men). So what happened was, I and many of my other male friends just found women overseas. The Asian women just were nicer, more appreciative and treated us better. And they are not submissive as some think. I have now been happily married to a Chinese woman for 6 years and we have a cute little baby boy together. I think more white, American men would be happier if they dated Asians or Eastern Europeans. I am happy that white, american women have achieved financial and career success but I believe they carry a huge chip on their shoulder and in the end have lost something. Studies now show that American women are less happy today than their moms were 30 years ago despite more equality. Just my thoughts.
Fiona 453
Steve, your resentment towards women having financial and career success certainly suggests a chip on the shoulder but not on the part of women.
Bill 454
Fiona, if you bothered to read what I wrote, I said “I am happy that american women have achieved financial and career success.” Where you get that I resent that, I have absolutely no clue.
David T 455
Hi Bill/Steve/whoever.
It might be a stretch for Fiona to say you resent how western women are today compared to 30 years ago, but you do seem to have been dissatisfied in your experiences with the handful you tried to date. You have extended that dissatisfaction to all “white, american women with financial and career success” (“I believe they carry a huge chip on their shoulder”) even though you clearly did not try to date all of them. A lot of them are married, so how do you explain that?
Is that the same as resentment? Maybe not, but it is the same sort of generalization I see women here often making with statements like “I have been cheated on a lot so all men will eventually cheat.”
Bill/Steve 456
David,
Sure there are a lot of married women but then again, the divorce rate in the US is 50%. Why? My sister is now on her second divorce because she said she got bored of the guy. And when we talk about populations of people, yes we generalize and talk statistically. Statistically, marrying American women is a roll of the dice as far as divorce is concerned and most (not all) have an entitled mentality.
Julia 457
@Steve you know what they say about white men who end up with Asian women……they tend to be weak and whooped, now I am not one to believe stereotypes but boy did you walk into that one.
Most people end of marrying people of their own race, so your experience is outside of the norm.
Bill/Steve 458
Julia, the divorce rate for American men/Asian women is 20% while for American men/American women is 50%. The math is clear.
David T 459
@Bill/Steve (loll)
Obviously if someone can take care of themselves financially, they are less likely to stay in an unsatisfactory situation than if they are dependent. A corollary of that, is someone who is fully dependent will have more incentive to make themselves happy, focus on the positives, in their situation. So yes, an unemployed unempowered person will try harder to make the best of things and yes, may well end up quite happy. Someone who can leave will be more likely to suffer from the paradox of choice and be less happy. Anyone who can take care of themselves should be conscious of that.
@Julia Use of pejorative descriptors does not ever further a discussion. Bill/Steve is not weak or whooped. He used his resources to find himself a happy situation. He is happy, so what is the problem?
Don’t be offended that he is dissing you because of his generalization your economic and race status, be happy that you won’t have to filter through men like him who would not be happy with you in your search for a partner.
What this comes down to is the kind of person who makes BillSteve happy and the kind of person that makes YOU happy.
If BillSteve was only attracted to women who were 6′ and taller, and said “all women who are 5′ 11″ are too short to be attractive” would it make any sense to get all bent out of shape because you are 5’6″? This is not all that different.
Fiona 460
Bill/Steve/whoever you are, you are so happy for the success of American women that you are advising all other US men to meet Asian and Eastern European women because they have lost something and are entitled. Sounds pretty resentful to me.
Fiona 461
Oh and I’m British but I do have a lot of US female friends in Switzerland who will make wonderful strong, well travelled, nurturing mothers who will be fabulous role models to their daughters. Such as shame that they have to struggle with these sorts of attitudes.
Paragon 462
@ EGZQPL
“Maybe they want kids and are concerned about mutant sperm/genetic defects? Male sperm declines in quality after age 35.”?
But, mutation-risk isn’t all bad, as that is also how adaptive phenotypes arise.
@ Evan Marc Katz
” Take a look around. How many couples held out for their physical ideal? How many old, fat and ugly people are paired up?
That’s right: almost ALL of them.”
In the past assortative mating was the rule, but now it seems increasingly relegated to the top tier of attractiveness.
” People may be more attracted to young, thin and fertile, but the vast majority of us adjust for reality. “?
I agree insofar as those who get married(and ideally stay married).
” Those who don’t tend to get left behind.”
Which is the trend I observe(and predict).
But, more potential business for you, I guess.
@ Julia
“you know what they say about white men who end up with Asian women……they tend to be weak and whooped”
Who says this?
“now I am not one to believe stereotypes”
It occurs that this isn’t actually a stereotype, since no one actually believes it – not even those making the(disingenuous)claim.
“Most people end of marrying people of their own race, so your experience is outside of the norm.”
Conventional wisdom is that increasingly more and more western men(and at increasingly younger ages) are finding partners overseas(so this isn’t just about marriage), as they sidestep the ‘fall-back guy’ role that women have reserved for them, while chasing more attractive(though frequently short-term) prospects(something that has been expressed to me, both explicitly and implicitly, through interactions with women who are now second-guessing many of the relationship choices they made in their youth).
If men like this sound (understandably) bitter while recalling a solitary youth of being invisible to the opposite sex, then it is a sentiment tempered by poetic justice – where the nice guy gets the younger(overseas)girl of his dreams in the end.
If there is another moral to this (increasingly)common story, it is that sometimes the choices we make in our youth, can limit our options later in life(like in the case of a humbled middle aged woman, who finds that many of her reliable male peers are no longer available after years of being passed up for more ‘exciting’ prospects).
Ironically, the fact that male preferences are so much more inclusive of female variance(than the other way around – Western women don’t tend to find Asian men as attractive, for example)observes a singular male advantage when they broaden their search parameters significantly beyond national boundaries.
Julia 463
Bill/Steve is a troll. He used to frequent a site used by western women who were dating/married to men of south Asian descent. He would say the same things, the white american women are bad partners because they are picky demanding and because of high US divorce rate and then said men should go to Asia to find brides. He had a website, it was basically a male order bride deal, which is human trafficking for all intents are purposes. So yeah. I wouldn’t believe anything this guy says.
Fiona 464
What a lot of the men advocating bride tourism on here naively don’t seem to realise is that a lot of these women are taking them for a ride and will leave them when they get can get a passport and a good divorce settlement. When I lived in Switzerland I was friends with a Brazilian woman who married a Swiss guy and divorced at the first opportunity and all of her friends had done the same. She argued that marrying a man was a better ticket to a better life than prostitution and you can get rid of the man later. I could certainly see her point but I felt a little bit sorry for her ex-husband. So guys, if you want to advocate this action go ahead. Just be aware of the very high risks involved.
I am not sure about the US but in the UK, men who are seen to be effectively purchasing brides from abroad are pretty much the subject of ridicule among other men as much as among women. However, I am pleased to say that this behaviour does not appear to be the norm on this side of the pond. I haven’t met anyone over here who has done that and most of the single men I meet complain they are sick of the deluge of emails they get from women overseas – they know most of them just want a passport and most of them really do want to meet a partner who loves them for who they are which is of course as it should be.
Women are educated now and do have careers. The clock isn’t going to be turned back on that one. I would suggest that any self-respecting man start getting comfortable with the fact that this is the way the world now and stop complaining about it. Attitude makes a difference. I can tell when someone thinks that because I have a successful career I must be a stuck up bitch and I don’t want to end up with that guy because he will just make my life a misery with his issues. I can also tell when a man isn’t phased by what I have done or is even impressed by it and, even if he is less successful, I am more likely to date and appreciate that guy.
Ruby 465
Fiona #464
“…most of the single men I meet complain they are sick of the deluge of emails they get from women overseas…”
Yes, I’m in the US and heard that over and over from men I dated online. These guys aren’t stupid and aren’t looking to be scammed. I’ve known a couple of men who had a thing for Asian women, but since there are plenty of Asian-Americans, they didn’t have to look very far to find them.
Bill 466
My comment is directed at men only, so all women please ignore this. To all American men, please listen to me. There is an entire world out there in Asia and Eastern Europe especially of women who actually value you and want to be your partner, lover and companion and NOT your competitor. These foreign women do not have the chip on their shoulder that American women have. You don’t have to justify or apologize for being a man like you do in the US. On TV, you are not portrayed as creepy or stupid like you are in the US. Please, for the sake of god, just travel outside the US for once to see what you can actually have. If you never travel outside the US, your entire perception of women and dating will be horribly wrong because in the US, the dating scene is entirely dysfunctional and filled with women who demand equality yet only when it suits them. American women are very entitled and most don’t realize it. It is a societal problem. Virtually every man I know who has ventured outside the US found love and is much happier. If it isn’t working here in the US, and it isn’t for a lot of men, do what I ask.
Fiona 467
Given that this blog is aimed at successful women looking for love men should take heart that there are women out there for you but if you do have an attitude like Bill, don’t bother coming to the UK. Nothing to see here.
Paragon 468
@ Fiona
“What a lot of the men advocating bride tourism on here naively don’t seem to realise is that a lot of these women are taking them for a ride and will leave them when they get can get a passport and a good divorce settlement. When I lived in Switzerland I was friends with a Brazilian woman who married a Swiss guy and divorced at the first opportunity and all of her friends had done the same. She argued that marrying a man was a better ticket to a better life than prostitution and you can get rid of the man later. I could certainly see her point but I felt a little bit sorry for her ex-husband. So guys, if you want to advocate this action go ahead. Just be aware of the very high risks involved.”
Interesting anecdote.
Too bad your little appeal to consequence relies upon such an obviously hasty generalization – gold diggers can be found anywhere.
“I am not sure about the US but in the UK, men who are seen to be effectively purchasing brides from abroad are pretty much the subject of ridicule among other men as much as among women.”
Anyone with the means and resolve to find love over seas, isn’t likely to be hindered by the ineffectual opinions of individuals who can only be motivated by ignorance or petty jealousies.
“I haven’t met anyone over here who has done that and most of the single men I meet complain they are sick of the deluge of emails they get from women overseas – they know most of them just want a passport”
There is difference between (obvious) spam and genuine interactions.
But, it occurs, that many of the assumptions that such men otherwise hold are actually speaking to their own insecurities, as a tacit acknowledgement that THEY themselves have nothing more to offer(ie. than a passport).
“and most of them really do want to meet a partner who loves them for who they are which is of course as it should be.”
Perhaps they would do well to parse the divorce statistics that Bill/Steve alluded to(where I suspect a similar ratio can be observed in the UK, as well).
Personally, many of the most agreeable, sincere, generous, and beautiful women I have ever had the pleasure of interacting with, have been from distant countries.
“Women are educated now and do have careers. The clock isn’t going to be turned back on that one.”
And men – even high value men – are increasingly informed of more attractive options, when they extend their search parameters beyond national/cultural/racial boundaries.
The clock isn’t going to be turned back on that one, either.
“I would suggest that any self-respecting man start getting comfortable with the fact that this is the way the world now and stop complaining about it.”
Who’s complaining?
You, on the other hand, seem intent on selectively discrediting international romance through a combination of shaming language, and false generalizations.
David T 469
@Bill466
Bill, I have dated many women in the U.S. I can’t really think of any who had a chip on their shoulder regarding their relationships, I did not “justify” or “apologize” for being the man that I am. In the relationships I have been in since my marriage, they have been very much a partner, lover and companion and have not been in “competition” with me.
Virtually every man I know who has ventured outside the US found love and is much happier
I know a lot of people who travel internationally and don’t come back with new partners or full of tales about how wonderful women are elsewhere.
If you are talking about men who went outside of the US specifically looking for a partner, don’t you think your sample is a little skewed? All of those men were frustrated enough to spend the effort and money to look in another country. You have a PhD; surely you understand the implication.
Paragon 470
@ David T
“ If you are talking about men who went outside of the US specifically looking for a partner, don’t you think your sample is a little skewed?”
But, that’s precisely the point isn’t it?
He is advocating that men who aren’t finding who/what they are looking for in their own country/culture, to broaden their search parameters.
I would go further however, and suggest that Western men keep an open mind and consider the option of interacting with women from other cultures, and see where it goes.
Fiona 471
Paragon, as someone that has actually lived in Canada, the Netherlands and Switzerland, travelled all over the world, speaks French and German and has real long lasting friendships with people from many different backgrounds and cultures, I do not ‘shame language’ and make ‘false generalisations’. I have however seen a thing or two about the wider world (which I suspect from your limited insight, you have not) to know that the ability to communicate is essential in relationships and that big cultural differences are big hurdles to overcome (although not impossible). I have also seen that relationships based not on love but the desire to exploit (women for visas and money, men for sex) don’t seem to make many people happy but if some people end up happy, it is no skin off my nose.
I have dated lots of different guys from different countries because I spent so long living abroad and it wasn’t always easy because there were misunderstandings caused by language and cultural differences regarding gender roles but I wouldn’t rule it out either. I may well have gone on a date with the cute Australian who asked me out last night if he weren’t ten years younger because he actually lives here and is trying to integrate in this society, not to find a doormat to take back to his country because he can’t find a woman there.
I am only interested in men who see women as equals and want to have a relationship with mutual love, respect and support. So if men like you want to go abroad to find a foreign bride from an economically disadvantaged country, far from being jealous, I am indifferent. It doesn’t affect me because men like you and women like me would never be dating the real world anyway.
Selena 472
It would seem likely the American men who are shopping for women overseas are not the men American women want. Sounds practical for them to try their luck elsewhere. No need for jealousy.
Kathleen 473
Fiona #471
You are absolutely correct Well stated. Im a New Zealander living in the US and thats also been my experience.
You should give the Australian a chance 10 years isn’t bad!!
Bill 474
Asian women today, especially from China, Singapore, Korea, Japan, etc. are not economically “disadvantaged” and American men looking for love there see them as equal. In fact, Asians save more of their income than do Americans, who are generally in debt or unemployed due to outsourcing. Nor are Asian women submissive. These are myths perpetrated by ignorance and generally by white, American women upset that men in their own country would dare to look elsewhere given the horribly dysfunctional dating landscape in America. American men are not running away from equality or from the success of women, rather, they are running TO equality and away from an environment wherein American women SAY they want to be equal but really only when it benefits them. The dating landscape in America is littered with women who’s mind constantly asks: “What can he do for me, what can he buy me, he better pay for my date, he better ask me out, he better take care of me, I might just go out with him for a free meal”. As a result, there is no giving, only taking wherein American men are constantly in a situation where they have to “prove” themselves while American women do not. In contrast, Asian women are generally highly educated, extremely nice, family oriented, thin and generally view men as partners and friends rather than competitors. They are less selfish and entitled, more family oriented and marriages last longer. If more American men actually traveled outside the US I believe more would simply opt out of the American dating scene in favor of more equitable partnerships overseas.
The fact is, that unless American society becomes less misandrist in favor of more gender equality, American men will increasingly date and marry foreigners. And these American men who do are often successful, earning high incomes and are valued more highly overseas. I’m a perfect example wherein now in my mid 30s, I’m fit, athletic, good career and job and with over half a million dollars in the bank I get approached now by American women though my instinct is to simply avoid them since I know what they are after. Now when I see a very nice, cute, educated and very sweet Asian girl, my heart goes wild because I know her intentions are purer and she’s just a nicer person. Note that I’m talking in GENERAL and there are exceptions.
Fiona 475
Hey Kathleen, given the lack of single guys in my age group I am very sorely tempted to date the hot young things that approach me but I also know that I need someone for the longer term who wants a family so, with regret, I need to let that gorgeous guy find a girl in his age group and find a new strategy for finding men in my target age group of 35-45.
Paragon 476
@ Fiona
“I have however seen a thing or two about the wider world (which I suspect from your limited insight, you have not) to know that the ability to communicate is essential in relationships and that big cultural differences are big hurdles to overcome (although not impossible).”
I haven’t experienced these kinds of problems – in fact, I find that I tend to share more in common with foreign women, and thus communication comes easier.
“I have also seen that relationships based not on love but the desire to exploit (women for visas and money, men for sex) don’t seem to make many people happy but if some people end up happy, it is no skin off my nose.”
The general case I observe in North America(in the singles demographic), is a dynamic of deluded female ‘chemistry junkies’ trying to cajole their short term hook-ups(all the while ignoring more reliable LTR prospects) into a LTR, and then accruing emotional damage when the ‘hook-up’ (predictably) abandons them to pursue better options – hardly a romantic ideal.
I don’t know about you, but for me, that hardly evokes any kind of confidence in the local dating culture.
Are my observations a biased sample?
Absolutely.
But I would be foolish to ignore them.
“ I have dated lots of different guys from different countries because I spent so long living abroad and it wasn’t always easy because there were misunderstandings caused by language and cultural differences regarding gender roles but I wouldn’t rule it out either.”
I think it is well understood that Western women tend to be less flexible than Western men, with respect to gender-roles.
” I may well have gone on a date with the cute Australian who asked me out last night if he weren’t ten years younger because he actually lives here and is trying to integrate in this society, not to find a doormat to take back to his country because he can’t find a woman there. ”
What is that I was saying about you appealing to shaming tactics, and faulty generalizations?
Here you are doing it again.
“I am only interested in men who see women as equals and want to have a relationship with mutual love, respect and support.”
I couldn’t care less about finding my equal, because there ARE immutable differences between the sexes, and I am NOT looking for a man.
But, in my experience women with ‘equality’ hang-ups, are those who are only comfortable with entering into relationships from a position of advantage(this speaks to selfish motivations, and, in particular, an element of moral hazard).
“So if men like you want to go abroad to find a foreign bride from an economically disadvantaged country, far from being jealous, I am indifferent. It doesn’t affect me because men like you and women like me would never be dating the real world anyway.”
Of that I am certain, but I would also disagree that a greater tendency for men to find partners overseas is not affecting local women.
On the contrary, the effects are obvious for every local woman who has expressed an interest in me, only to find me already ‘taken’.
@ Selena
“ It would seem likely the American men who are shopping for women overseas are not the men American women want.”
Non sequitur.
If a woman visits two clubs, and notices a higher proportion of unattractive men in the nearer one, and a higher proportion of attractive men in the more distant one, would it be correct to infer that a preference for frequenting the club with more attractive men is necessarily saying ANYTHING about the preferences of MEN in either club?
This is an apt analogy for me, where I have observed that quality single women are prohibitively rare in my location.
And since searching for a needle in a haystack makes for a poor strategy, it made sense for me to expand my search parameters beyond local boundaries.
I did this with an open mind, but it was not long before my experiences began to reveal an obvious pattern where my best matches were located well outside the Anglosphere.
Again, I’m sure there ARE women in the west who are as well suited to me as anywhere else in the world, but for whatever reason, in my experience, they are also more rare, and/or failing to present to scrutiny(and this is a observation shared by an increasing number of men).
Bill 477
Fiona, my identical twin brother is 9 years younger than his wife. They’ve been married now 12 years and started dating when he was 21 and she was 30. He always wanted a wife and kids. What makes you think this guy doesn’t want something longterm? What, because he’s a young man? Your perceptions of men are really wacky.
Kathleen 478
Bill # 474
If that works for you great
As a foreigner, I find it amusing that the American guys who are disenchanted with American women are often chasing women out of their league and so they get discouraged which is understandable. Maybe if you chose a different type of woman you might have a different experience
If you are the common denominator with your poor experience with American women maybe its…… wait for it…… you!
Julia 479
Ok for starter “foreign women” are not some monolith, so stop exoticising , they are complex people just like Americans.
Secondly, the “white man as a victim of white women” fantasy is completely out of whack with reality, you are not powerless, white men still control literally everything in our society. Its clear to me that men who are not doing well with strong American women are looking for a more traditional gender role and today’s women, across race mind you, does not fulfill their fantasy. Good luck finding your perfect, monolithic exotic Asian woman. I do wonder though, why do you only suggest Eastern European or Asian women and not women from Africa and Central and South America? They are also non-western cultures.
Fiona 480
Bill, you clearly have a warped view of western women that none of us can fix so I won’t bother trying. Reasoning with near fanatical views is a pointless waste of energy.
As for my perceptions of men being ‘wacky’ – well if a rational person thought I was was you wacky for realising that in ten years time a 27 year old may not be so happy with a with a woman approaching 50 when he is approaching 40, I might be concerned. If you think I’m wacky, I can live with it.
Bill 481
Julia, the gender balance in the US has shifted if you were paying attention to statistics. Women live 7 years longer than men, graduate from college more than men, now earn similar to men, have more money spent on breast cancer and women’s diseases than on men’s, have organizations devoted to the advancement of women, are portrayed in media as never cheating, never doing wrong, smart and powerful while men are viewed in media and TV as dumb, evil or foolish, women win all the child custody court cases, they ask for equality yet never want to pay for dates or get blown up in the front lines of war, etc. In the past women did not have equal rights but now not only do they have equal rights, our society has gone so far in one direction that we have an entire generation of entitled females and misandry who expect everything while giving little. It is probably a temporary backlash due to years of inequality which the men are now paying for. Well, I have an infant son and I believe his life is not worth less than a woman’s even though our society would like him and I to believe that just because he’s male he’s expendable. No way. He deserves love and appreciation too and if he can’t find that in America I will teach him to go elsewhere where men are viewed as partners and actually worth something. An increasing number of men believe what I do and all you have to do is search the internet to know it. Society, while helping women, is now failing boys and men and that will hurt both genders in the long run. The sad part is, people just can’t see men as victims because they are supposedly strong and invincible. It’s a societal problem
David T 482
@Bill 474
Bill, in 452 under the nom de plume “Steve” you said:
I have now been happily married to a Chinese woman for 6 years and we have a cute little baby boy together
Now I know that was you, because in 454 as “Bill” you answered Fiona 453 and referred to post 452 with “I” statements. But now
in 474 you said
I’m a perfect example wherein now in my mid 30s, I’m fit, athletic, good career and job and with over half a million dollars in the bank I get approached now by American women though my instinct is to simply avoid them since I know what they are after. Now when I see a very nice, cute, educated and very sweet Asian girl, my heart goes wild because I know her intentions are purer and she’s just a nicer person.
So, if you are happily married, then why are is your “instinct” to avoid American women who approach you because you “know what they are after?” And when you see a “sweet Asian girl, [your] heart goes wild”? What happened to happily married for 6 years with a new baby??
At first I thought you were just someone pointing out there are other ways to look and you found your own happy path that works for you. Now I have a hard time telling what is fabricated and what isn’t so am inclined to dismiss most of what you say. If none of it is fabricated I can’t trust the perspective whose integrity includes considering dating other women while married.
(Note: David is correct about Steve/Bill)
Kathleen 483
David T #482
Thank you !!! Great observation .
Selena 484
Steve/Bill apparently has a rich, fulfilling life fantasy life with Asian women.
Fiona 485
Having read post 481, I now think it is maybe better for everyone that guys with these views stay away from western women, probably better still if they stay away from any woman.
Selena 486
Paragon,
If you find your match outside the Anglosphere…Good on ya.
Real or fantasy.
Fiona 487
Paragon, I can’t be bothered responding to what you wrote about my post in 476. If you want to believe you will be more successful with women by thinking the way you do, good luck to you. I don’t think it is going to get you very far though.
Paragon 488
@ Kathleen
“As a foreigner”
A foreign country outside Western Europe?
“I find it amusing that the American guys who are disenchanted with American women are often chasing women out of their league and so they get discouraged which is understandable.”
And why should we suppose that is happening(when data and theory have consistently shown that women are more selective)?
Unless we are assuming equivalence, the limiting factor can’t tend to be BOTH male and female preferences – the onus is either on one or the other.
And if the limiting factor was male preference, we wouldn’t be seeing studies like these:
http://jonmillward.com/blog/attraction-dating/cupid-on-trial-a-4-month-online-dating-experiment/
If men are (admittedly)chasing after women out of their league, then it is clearly not to the exclusion of less favored prospects(as we can see from studies like these, even an average looking woman is likely to receive a deluge of attention/interest).
That the attention women receive is frequently dismissed as originating from unattractive men, gives us a further indication of where the onus actually lies.
The parsimonious conclusion, is that Western women, in particular, are inclined to reject the vast majority of men who express any interest in them.
“Maybe if you chose a different type of woman you might have a different experience”
Isn’t that, indeed, what is being suggested?
“If you are the common denominator with your poor experience with American women maybe its…… wait for it…… you!”
If that was true, then we could not observe solutions with foreign women(which suggests an important variable is… wait for it… local women!).
@ Julia
“Its clear to me that men who are not doing well”
If by ‘not doing well’, you actually mean, not finding a match.
“with strong American women are looking for a more traditional gender role and today’s women, across race mind you, does not fulfill their fantasy.”
Why are you attributing a particular strength to American women?
Are they any more ‘strong’ than women from any other part of the world?
“Good luck finding your perfect, monolithic exotic Asian woman.”
If luck had too much to do with it, it wouldn’t make for a popular and effective strategy.
“I do wonder though, why do you only suggest Eastern European or Asian women and not women from Africa and Central and South America? They are also non-western cultures.”
You are absolutely correct – African and Latin American women should be given the same preferential consideration, I agree wholeheartedly.
@ David T
“So, if you are happily married, then why are is your “instinct” to avoid American women who approach you because you “know what they are after?” And when you see a “sweet Asian girl, [your] heart goes wild”? What happened to happily married for 6 years with a new baby??”
I won’t bother to speculate on his motivations, or his actual identity, but I don’t see the inconsistency that you are alluding to.
I don’t see why a man, even after he is married, can’t still posess a vestigial ‘instict’ on which women he would tend to avoid(whether these particular instincts are justified, is another matter).
Evan Marc Katz 489
@Paragon – Your posts are already long and incomprehensible. Please stop double spacing between paragraphs so at least they can take up less space. Thank you.
As for my two cents on this argument? I’d say that men who seek foreign women are men who probably are unsuccessful with American women, and thus turn to foreign women to give them what they lack. Since they fail with their peers, they turn to women who come from more patriarchal societies who don’t speak English as a first language and whose greatest need is to get out of their country to find a better life in America. But he gets his need met – positive validation from a woman; she gets her need met – a potential green card – and they have a chance at building a life together. It’s not all that different than Millionaire Matchmaker, except instead of rich man/beautiful golddigger, we get loser man/desperate foreigner.
Kathleen 490
Evan
I love your 2 cents You’re brilliant. Im exhausted from laughing over your last line
Bill 491
It is amusing how antiquated myths pop up when the issue of American men/foreign women pops up. One of these myths is that foreign women don’t speak good English, which was true decades ago but not today. In fact, most foreign women now actually DO speak good English. English is the global language of business, science, commerce, politics and of the educated masses so most educated foreign women from China, Singapore, Korea, Japan, etc. actually do speak it. And I might add, they often speak it better than many Americans LOL. This is a common myth propagated by people who either don’t travel a lot or have views from the a decade or two ago rather than 2012.
Another myth is that foreign women’s greatest need is to get out of their country. In fact, many economies in the world are doing better than the US, especially among the emerging markets. Evan is correct that many foreign countries are patriarchal wherein the men may not generally be good-husband material. Enter the American man. American men raised in a society that values women’s rights and equality generally make excellent husbands and foreign women know it, recognize it and appreciate it.
Let’s have a healthier debate and get rid of these outdated, erroneous myths and actually talk about why more American men, especially highly successful ones, are increasingly dating foreigners. I submit there is a lot of societal dysfunction going on which I’ve named in several passages above. Men and women were meant to be partners but increasingly, gender roles in America have been distorted and evolved to be combative and competitive. I think there are a lot of unhappy people in America as evidenced by the high divorce rate.
Bill 492
P.S. Evan said “rich man/beautiful golddigger, we get loser man/desperate foreigner.”
Evan, that is not helpful to portray foreign women as goldiggers and men who date them as losers. That is unrealistic and speaks to propaganda. There is something much deeper going on in society that is driving more men to date foreigners. I submit it is a resujlt of dysfunction in society
Karl R 493
Paragon said: (#488)
“The parsimonious conclusion, is that Western women, in particular, are inclined to reject the vast majority of men who express any interest in them.”
And men aren’t?
The link you provided ignored the fact that men tend to be the instigators of relationships in this culture. (It demonstrated that men are about 18 times more likely to approach then women.) For both men and women, the most attractive two got over 90% of the emails.
Here’s a little test for you to run. Get on a bus, train or some other form of inexpensive public transportation. Choose one that’s at a time and location to have a wide variety of people, including professionals, blue collar workers, single mothers and the homeless.
Imagine all the women on the bus/train are single. How many of the women would you consider approaching as a potential wife? Would you approach the women over 60? How about the single mother with 3 small, poorly-behaved children? Would you approach the woman with black hair and blond extensions? How about the woman with a crew cut? Would you approach the morbidly obese woman? Would you approach the muslim woman wearing a hijab? How about the woman who is missing several of her front teeth?
You and I reject the vast majority of women too. We reject them by not bothering to approach in the first place.
Bill/Steve said: (#458)
“the divorce rate for American men/Asian women is 20% while for American men/American women is 50%.”
That statistic seems to be touted by mail-order-bride companies, but the independent research doesn’t support it.
41% of mail-order-brides divorce, compared to 48% of the general population. Since divorced mail-order-brides can run the risk of deportation, that may encourage some to remain unhappily married.
Evan said: (#489)
“But he gets his need met – positive validation from a woman; she gets her need met – a potential green card – and they have a chance at building a life together.”
That’s not always the women’s motivation. For example, there is huge social pressure on Eastern European women to marry young, and a huge stigma against those who don’t. (There’s more stigma against “old maids” than there is against divorcees.) The woman raises her social standing in her community by getting married, even if she divorces later.
(A couple Eastern European female friends told me about this.)
It’s not the typical green card motive, but it’s still not the kind of motive I want my wife to have when marrying me.
Julia 494
There was an excellent Vanguard about Thai mail order brides. Many women live in poverty and know American men through American movies, they think they are all tall, handsome and romantic. Then it shows the reality of women who married the men who sent for them, often much older, they treated them like domestic servants and often wouldn’t allow them to have children.
Fantasy relationship.
Paragon 495
@ Evan Marc Katz
“@Paragon – Your posts are already long and incomprehensible. Please stop double spacing between paragraphs so at least they can take up less space. Thank you.”
I’m having some problems, but I’ll try – thanks for your patience.
“As for my two cents on this argument? I’d say that men who seek foreign women are men who probably are unsuccessful with American women, and thus turn to foreign women to give them what they lack. Since they fail with their peers, they turn to women who come from more patriarchal societies who don’t speak English as a first language and whose greatest need is to get out of their country to find a better life in America. But he gets his need met – positive validation from a woman; she gets her need met – a potential green card – and they have a chance at building a life together. It’s not all that different than Millionaire Matchmaker, except instead of rich man/beautiful golddigger, we get loser man/desperate foreigner.”
I appreciate your expressed opinions are hindered by a concern for defending/protecting the esteem of your client-demographic, but it occurs that many of the challenges that face us in the relationship world are sexually dimorphic.
So, if it can be said that men who rely upon economic security to secure a relationship(only overseas?) are ‘losers’, then what should we call women who fail to find an exclusive relationship(assuming that is what they want), if not also (perhaps bigger)’losers’?
I want to clarify that I am NOT recommending that anyone neglect local prospects – rather that they might want to consider broadening their search parameters, in optimizing their search.
But, I am curious – if you were(are?) accepting male clients, and you had good reason to believe that one might benefit from broadening their search parameters, would you call him a ‘loser’?
@ Karl R
“Paragon said: (#488)
“The parsimonious conclusion, is that Western women, in particular, are inclined to reject the vast majority of men who express any interest in them.”
And men aren’t?”
Yes, I suspect they are.
The difference, of course, is that since males tends to be the initiating sex, it is female choice that tends to be the limiting factor I alluded to.
“The link you provided ignored the fact that men tend to be the instigators of relationships in this culture.”
Which is good evidence of what we already know(ie. that women tend to be more selective).
Evan Marc Katz 496
Paragon – two things in response to your latest reply:
1) I don’t write things to defend/protect the self-esteem of women. Out of pretty much every dating/relationship expert out there, I am the LEAST likely to cater my honest opinion due to the sensitivities of my readers. I honestly can’t see how – as a regular reader – you can claim otherwise. No one else who helps women as I do has been tarred a sexist or a misogynist or a douchebag or an asshole like I have. All because I dare say that women are 50% responsible for their own dating problems as opposed to things being 100% the fault of men. Now about those men…
2) If I have male clients (which I still do, on occasion), would I call him a “loser” for broadening his search criteria? Absolutely not. But that’s not the point at all. Listen, I tell women every single day to broaden their search criteria, to remain open to men of integrity, consistency and kindness. I tell them to lower their height requirement and income requirement, raise their age requirement, and do all sorts of things to increase her odds of finding true love. I have NEVER told a woman that she should proactively look for a man more than 50 miles away, much less another country. Why? Because she doesn’t HAVE to go that far away to find a quality man. One reader said the equivalent of what you’re saying – in reverse. She was a tough woman with a sailor’s mouth who found that American men were too weak and soft for her. Her solution? Move to Scotland! Yes, that’s the ticket! Pick up and move to a tiny place with fewer people than Dallas. Because there are no American men who are strong enough for her. This is a cockamamie idea and I told her it was a cockamamie idea. Which is exactly what I’d say to any man who says “American women” are (insert your insult here). So yes, if you can’t find a woman in your town, nearest city, state or neighboring state, and feel the need to import an economically disadvantaged woman who you barely know, I would say that you are a loser. Thankfully, I don’t have any clients like that.
Helen 497
Evan, have you become more feisty as of late? Some of your comments had me doubled over in laughter, like Kathleen #490.
A few comments in response to the recent commenters:
While I do not like Bill’s characterization of foreign and particularly Asian women in general (we are nowhere near all alike, for crying out loud), I can understand where he and Paragon are coming from with respect to the line that several objected to, about finding others attractive even when married. Even when you are happily married and would never betray your spouse, you will still find others attractive; you don’t become blind upon marriage. That doesn’t mean you act upon that attraction, though – when you’re happily married, you really wouldn’t want to!
That said, I think Bill was misinterpreting the American women showing interest in his pocketbook. Women don’t tend to go after married men with the kind of intention he is insinuating. People flirt all the time with no real intention. If I interpreted the flirtations of every man in the same way he did, I’d think nearly every man and some women in my workplace were after me. Which they aren’t.
Karl R #493, thanks for sharing that report. I just want to point out that these are not “mail-order brides” as you characterized them. The report referred to cross-cultural marriages, which includes my own; I am not a mail-order bride. And although the difference in divorce rates for same-cultural vs. cross-cultural marriages is not as large as others have stated (48% vs. 41%), the report did say that the difference was statistically significant.
I do not think that the reason you posit – that mail-order brides want to avoid deportation – is a main contributor to this difference in divorce rates. I think it is that we come from cultures that are more “traditional” in their views of marriage, which encompasses many different things. First, we grew up with parents and relatives who expect less from marriage, so if we don’t receive some things, we aren’t going to divorce the other person for not giving us everything we want. Second, we grew up in cultures that tend to frown upon divorce, some of these cultures more or less so. We carry some of that mindset with us even if we’re living in America. Third, we come from families that had to struggle to get here in the first place, or we did ourselves; so we carry more of a belief that if something isn’t working, work harder at it, rather than giving up.
One thing it is NOT is that Asian women are better than “American women.” We are not. We are remarkably similar, and we can’t be generalized anyway.
Karl R 498
Paragon said: (#495)
“The difference, of course, is that since males tends to be the initiating sex, it is female choice that tends to be the limiting factor I alluded to.”
“Which is good evidence of what we already know(ie. that women tend to be more selective).”
Your assertion doesn’t match real world situations.
During the time I was on Match.com, there were about 1600 women who met my general age/location criteria. Of those women, I contacted no more than 50 of them (approximately 3%).
When I started on Match.com, I was getting about a 10% response rate. This gradually increased to about 20% as I became more experienced at online dating.
As the one initiating contact, I ruled out 97% of the women. As the ones responding, they ruled me out about 85% of the time. How are the women the limiting factor? Are you saying that I couldn’t have doubled the number of favorable responses by doubling the number of women I contacted?
Furthermore, the number of favorable responses I sent to women was close to 20% … about the same response rate I got as an experienced online dater. (That’s just counting the women who had clearly read my profile. The scammers / green card seekers outnumbered those women 10 to 1 … and I rejected all of them.)
When you choose who you’re going to email (or make a pass at), you are exercising selective behavior. And that choice is one of the limiting factors for the number of positive responses you get. I’m not sure how you’re blinding yourself to that fact.
David T 499
@Bill
I actually do have some experience dating an eastern european immigrant. I found that the cultural gulf (not having a common shared upbringing) while not on its own a dealbreaker, was one minus on the relationship that made it that much harder to relate to one another. No match is perfect and there are always issues to be worked on or lived with. This one was not the reason the relationship broke down in the end, but it certainly was one of several reasons that there was a problem.
If you keep adding barriers (long distance, no time to really get to know your new potential partner and certainly no opportunity to really get to know her community of friends and that one of you will be nearly completely abandoning their support network) I think you are hurting your odds of finding a successful satisfying relationship.
As far as myths go, can you tell us some more about your 6 year old marriage and your baby boy? Regardless of what Paragon said about vesitigal instincts (urges?) your “heart going wild” when you meet a sweet Asian girl does not sound like someone who is happily married.
Fiona 500
Evan 490 is hilarious but true. As I am Scottish I rate my chances in Scotland way higher than Dallas and frankly I would choose it over Dallas any day even though I don’t live there now. Even though the population is only 5 million it is very well educated and very well travelled and very well aware of the wider world but all that shows is that your point in 496 is right. No need to move countries to find love.
Helen 501
Fiona: I would have thought she wanted to move to Scotland for the lovely Scottish brogue, the warm personalities, and the kilts and bagpipes.
Especially the kilts.
Fiona 502
Ah well Scottish men only bring out their kilts special occasions
If a US woman told me she wanted to move to Scotland for a job I would say go for it if she thinks she can stand the weather. I don’t think it would be an awful lot harder for her to find love there than the US because we speak English and the culture differences are not likely to insurmountable. However, I wouldn’t see why she would want to move there solely to find a man as she could find one closer to home. Even I won’t move back just for that but if I had to move for work or something it’d be ok with it – however I would be booking my holidays somewhere warmer!
Paragon 503
@ Evan Marc Katz
” I have NEVER told a woman that she should proactively look for a man more than 50 miles away, much less another country. Why? Because she doesn’t HAVE to go that far away to find a quality man.”
But men are not women – women are vastly more selective, while economic security isn’t a strong determinant of male mate choice.
So, why shouldn’t men exploit every advantage they have in securing the best possible mate they can?
This is not a trivial undertaking, so obviously there are reasons compelling some men to pursue such a strategy.
And if it is the means top securing a high quality mate, I don’t see how that can make them losers.
It occurs that (being a loser)would be a more apt characterization for someone who remains unhappily alone.
“One reader said the equivalent of what you’re saying – in reverse.”
I am not making any universal claims about Western women, but rather just relating my shared experiences, of having found a higher proportion of matches abroad.
“So yes, if you can’t find a woman in your town, nearest city, state or neighboring state”
I haven’t observed any female userbase that is particularly receptive to long-distance courtships, aside from, predictably, international dating sites.
“and feel the need to import an economically disadvantaged woman who you barely know, I would say that you are a loser.”
Fair enough, but this seems a bit of a false dichotomy – there is a continuum of circumstances, that have nothing to do with being a loser, which can recommend an international partner as an optimal outcome.
But, if you want to close your mind to this possibility, that’s your option.
@ Karl R
”Your assertion doesn’t match real world situations.
During the time I was on Match.com, there were about 1600 women who met my general age/location criteria. Of those women, I contacted no more than 50 of them (approximately 3%).
When I started on Match.com, I was getting about a 10% response rate. This gradually increased to about 20% as I became more experienced at online dating.
As the one initiating contact, I ruled out 97% of the women. As the ones responding, they ruled me out about 85% of the time. How are the women the limiting factor? Are you saying that I couldn’t have doubled the number of favorable responses by doubling the number of women I contacted?”
Furthermore, the number of favorable responses I sent to women was close to 20% … about the same response rate I got as an experienced online dater. (That’s just counting the women who had clearly read my profile. The scammers / green card seekers outnumbered those women 10 to 1 … and I rejected all of them.)
When you choose who you’re going to email (or make a pass at), you are exercising selective behavior. And that choice is one of the limiting factors for the number of positive responses you get. I’m not sure how you’re blinding yourself to that fact.”
I’m not.
I agree that we all exercise selective(and self-limiting) behavior.
My argument, however, was one of female choice being the dominant limiting factor.
We have many reasons to suppose this, beyond OLD data(which supports that females are more selective, given that message frequency is a corollary of selectivity), which poses too many confounders in the data to rely upon too strongly.
Even so, the authors of “Freakonomics” discovered that 56% of men that create an online dating profile do not even get one single message(compared with 21% of females) while Jupiter Research found that 97%(of men) quit within 3 months(draw your own conclusions).
Your personal, cherry-picked anecdotes, aren’t a compelling challenge to my assumptions.
I would also like to add, that the original contention was that the men who look for greener pastures(overseas) are breaking symmetry, after pursuing women outside their ‘league’.
I not only disagree that this is necessarily the case, but also with the tacit implication that these ‘leagues’ are symmetrical(as evidenced in studies, like the OK Cupid one that showed women are rating 80% of males below average – rendering a skew which hinders assumptions of pair-matching).
Karl R 504
Paragon said: (#503)
“Your personal, cherry-picked anecdotes, aren’t a compelling challenge to my assumptions.”
Your cherry-picked examples didn’t begin to support your assumptions either. I didn’t feel the need to put more effort into refuting your assumptions than you did in your half-assed attempt to “prove” them.
Paragon said: (#503)
“given that message frequency is a corollary of selectivity”
You’re claiming that a person who sends out more messages is less selective than one who sends out few messages, correct?
MacDonalds receives tons of applications, and hardly ever does any headhunting. The consulting firm I work for does lots of headhunting and active recruiting, but receives relatively few unsolicited applications.
If your corollary is universally true, then MacDonalds is a more selective employer than the professional consulting firm I work for. Do you believe that’s actually correct?
Paragon said: (#503)
“the authors of “Freakonomics” discovered that 56% of men that create an online dating profile do not even get one single message (compared with 21% of females)”
We both know that men are expected to do the initiating in relationships (in our culture). This expectation overrides any meaningful data you could possibly infer.
Paragon said: (#503)
“Jupiter Research found that 97%(of men) quit within 3 months (draw your own conclusions).”
I could conclude that 97% of men find a suitable match within three months.
When quitting Match.com, they always ask for a reason. What percentage of men stated that they quit because they hadn’t found a match? Why should we draw our own conclusions about this data, instead of actually looking at it?
What percentage of women quit within three months? Did you bother to find out? If it’s 98% or 99%, what conclusion should we draw?
Paragon said: (#503)
“the OK Cupid one that showed women are rating 80% of males below average”
The same OK Cupid study showed that women’s emails were far more evenly distributed than men’s. The most attractive men received 11 times more emails than the least attractive men. The most attractive women received 26 times more emails than the least attractive women.
Furthermore, the most attractive females responded to the least attractvie males’ emails 12% of the time. The most attractive males responded to the least attractive females’ emails 6% of the time.
Do the women have a skewed view of male attractiveness? Absolutely. But they are also relying less on physical attractiveness as a selection criteria than the men are.
You’re starting with the belief that women are more selective than men, and you’re seeking information to support that belief. You’re ignoring any alternate explanations for the data you find. You’re ignoring any data that contradicts your belief.
You’re not interested in finding facts to determine whether women are more selective than men. You’re interested in finding examples which will prove your belief … regardless of whether your belief is correct.
Paragon said: (#503)
“the original contention was that the men who look for greener pastures(overseas) are breaking symmetry, after pursuing women outside their ‘league’.”
According a study sponsored by the INS, on average, mail-order-brides are 15 years younger than their husbands.
That’s a hard, quantifiable number from a reliable source. It’s also a strong indicator of at least one form of asymmetry.
Bill 505
Let’s cut to the chase: the term mail-order bride is derogatory and racist and used by Americans to support an agenda against something they do not like. The reality is, and I’ll keep this short and sweet:
1. American men are raised in a society that teaches them to treat women equally and respectfully. They are taught this in school and media. As a result, American men generally make good husband material, and foreign women know it.
2. Foreign women raised in an often patriarchal society genuinely appreciate men who treat them equally and respectfully. It is a welcome improvement from what they are used to. And no, it’s not because of money or a green card as the haters will say. They value family and everything is not about them. They are not self centered or entitled.
3. Combine 1 and 2 above with the simple fact that American women raised in a society teaching them to believe they are the center of the universe, deserve to be treated like princesses and are worth more than men and give very little in return makes it extremely logical that American men and foreign women will get together and actually be happier because of it. This is a natural manifestation of societal dysfunction and values gone awry. I’ve said it time and again, we are living in a mysandrist bubble in America, and like all bubbles, the tech and real estate bubble, they ALL eventually crash and it’s generally not pretty. Some bubbles last a long time. We shall see how long the Misandry bubble in America lasts before popping. I’m hoping that in 20 years when my baby is an adult, it will have popped.
Bill 506
P.S. To go deeper into what I wrote above (#505), The Misandry Bubble in America today is a logical extension and backlash from decades of gender inequality and is to be expected. When blacks first achieved rights, racial riots ensued and it was a backlash due to decades of pent up anger and frustration. We are seeing that today wherein white men are now the target of ridicule in America. They are the last gender and race where it is politically acceptable to make fun of by minorities and women. Eventually this will all work its way out. But in the meantime, young men who had absolutely no role in the racial or gender oppression and who’s only guilt is they happened to be born white men, are seeking acceptance and love increasingly outside of America where there is no backlash or bubble.
Paragon 507
@ Karl R
“Your cherry-picked examples didn’t begin to support your assumptions either. I didn’t feel the need to put more effort into refuting your assumptions than you did in your half-assed attempt to “prove” them.”
I never claimed that my personal experience was evidence of what I am describing as a systemic problem.
They were independent of my observation that the onus lies with female selectivity, as the systemic basis of any conflict between what men want, and what they can get(again, I am describing a systemic problem).
“MacDonalds receives tons of applications, and hardly ever does any headhunting. The consulting firm I work for does lots of headhunting and active recruiting, but receives relatively few unsolicited applications.”
They don’t have to – when they are hiring, EVERYONE knows it, lol(do I need to spell out: ‘help wanted‘?).
Thus, are communicating their interest more indescriminately, and at a higher rate.
Still, it was justified given the context(regardless of whether it is mathematically rigorous – which was not the sense in which it was appealed).
“We both know that men are expected to do the initiating in relationships (in our culture). This expectation overrides any meaningful data you could possibly infer.”
My impression was that this statistic wasn’t limited to unsolicited communication, but also responses.
“When quitting Match.com, they always ask for a reason. What percentage of men stated that they quit because they hadn’t found a match? Why should we draw our own conclusions about this data, instead of actually looking at it?”
I would like to.
“What percentage of women quit within three months? Did you bother to find out? If it’s 98% or 99%, what conclusion should we draw?”
I assuming that is not the case, as this would obviously be a noteworthy statistic for them(or someone) to relate.
“Do the women have a skewed view of male attractiveness? Absolutely. But they are also relying less on physical attractiveness as a selection criteria than the men are.”
Yes, but we have no good reason to assume that these responses are an indication of romantic interest, so we must split the hair with alternate evidence.
“You’re starting with the belief that women are more selective than men, and you’re seeking information to support that belief.”
During my time here, I’ve appealed to plenty of evidence that women are more selective.
Is it a belief?
Absolutely.
But it is not a naive one.
“You’re ignoring any alternate explanations for the data you find. You’re ignoring any data that contradicts your belief.”
When presented with equivocal data, that lends an agreeable interpretation(of that belief), I unify the two like any reasonable(though fallible) individual.
“According a study sponsored by the INS, on average, mail-order-brides are 15 years younger than their husbands.
That’s a hard, quantifiable number from a reliable source. It’s also a strong indicator of at least one form of asymmetry.”
I never said men don’t exercise choice, given the opportunity – but these opportunities tend to be limited by female choice.
Even in the kind of cases you alluded to here, women are still exercising selective behavior, even if they are weighting for alternate considerations than their western counterparts.
Karl R 508
97% of people stop using online dating within 3 months.
That’s men and women.
Paragon said: (#507)
“I assuming that is not the case, as this would obviously be a noteworthy statistic for them(or someone) to relate.”
I don’t make assumptions about facts that I don’t know. I look for the underlying information.
You never know when someone is going to take a piece of information (like 97% of people quitting online dating) and distort that information (into 97% of men quitting online dating) in order to make some point (like women being the problem).
Paragon said: (#507)
“My impression was that this statistic wasn’t limited to unsolicited communication, but also responses.”
Did you bother to check? It’s right in the OKCupid source you quoted. The response rate is very similar for men and women across the board.
OKCupid data-mining information:
Average looking women respond to average looking men 50% of the time.
Average looking men respond to average looking women 44% of the time.
At certain data points men are more selective. At others, women are more selective. Overall, it appears that the response rate is similar for both sexes.
Paragon said: (#507)
“When presented with equivocal data, that lends an agreeable interpretation(of that belief), I unify the two like any reasonable (though fallible) individual.”
That’s not what a reasonable person does. That’s what a biased person does (pretty much by the definition of bias).
You ignore facts that refute your position.You present equivocal data as if it supports your position.You present an absence of data so it appears to support your position.
I have to wonder what your agenda is. What are you trying to accomplish despite the evidence?
Paragon 509
@ Karl R
”97% of people stop using online dating within 3 months.
That’s men and women.
Paragon said: (#507)
“I assuming that is not the case, as this would obviously be a noteworthy statistic for them(or someone) to relate.”
I don’t make assumptions about facts that I don’t know. I look for the underlying information.”
I did look – why are you assuming that I didn’t?
“You never know when someone is going to take a piece of information (like 97% of people quitting online dating) and distort that information (into 97% of men quitting online dating) in order to make some point (like women being the problem).”
Here is the exact quote I am referencing: “The authors of “Freakonomics” discovered that 56% of men that create an online dating profile do not even get one single message while Jupiter Research found that 97% quit within 3 months.”
Am I mistaken(ie. how are you inferring that this statistic is inclusive of women)?
If so, it is an honest mistake.
“Paragon said: (#507)
“My impression was that this statistic wasn’t limited to unsolicited communication, but also responses.”
Did you bother to check? It’s right in the OKCupid source you quoted. The response rate is very similar for men and women across the board.”
OKCupid data-mining information:
Average looking women respond to average looking men 50% of the time.
Average looking men respond to average looking women 44% of the time.
At certain data points men are more selective. At others, women are more selective. Overall, it appears that the response rate is similar for both sexes.”
That sounds like a different study than the one I quoted.
“Paragon said: (#507)
“When presented with equivocal data, that lends an agreeable interpretation(of that belief), I unify the two like any reasonable (though fallible) individual.”
That’s not what a reasonable person does. That’s what a biased person does (pretty much by the definition of bias).”
A Reasonable individual will appeal to parsimony given imperfect information.
On the other hand, you would seem to be advocating assumptions of equivalence based on a finding of approximately equal response rates for an OK Cupid study?
While I won’t accuse you of rendering an unreasonable conclusion, I will suggest that it is an uninformed one.
“You ignore facts that refute your position.”
To my knowledge, I have addressed this, but perhaps not to your satisfaction.
“You present equivocal data as if it supports your position.”
I render agreement with what I feel are justified assumptions(that have plenty of evidence beyond the current scope of this discussion, which we can expand, if you so desire).
“You present an absence of data so it appears to support your position.
I have to wonder what your agenda is. What are you trying to accomplish despite the evidence?”
Consideration of such questions begs the question of your own bias.
But, in response, my singular motivation is a continuous refinement of knowledge.
Karl R 510
Paragon said: (#509)
“Am I mistaken(ie. how are you inferring that this statistic is inclusive of women)?”
No. I’m saying there is more data that you didn’t look at.
You didn’t come up with your data by looking at the study. You looked at an article, copied what they said and pasted it directly into your post. And it’s highly likely that the author of the article you quoted didn’t look at the research either. He quoted another article. (If you start looking at the articles, most use identical language, down to the punctuation.)
If you follow the bread-crumbs backward, there’s one author who looked at the original Jupiter Research report.
Do you think that Jupiter research only looked at how long men remained subscribed to online dating sites?
If the scraps of cached electronic data I’ve found are non-corrupted, the original statement by Jupiter Research said that 97% of all subscribers quit within the first three months. (I don’t feel like paying $750 for the actual report just to confirm this wording.)
This data came from Jupiter’s 2004 research report, not one of the more recent ones. If I recall correctly, women were no longer receiving free memberships by that point, so “subscribers” would have referred to women as well as men.
Furthermore, the “97%” figure is consistent with eHarmony’s assertion that they have “full audience turnover every 6.5 months”. If you assume that this actually reflects a 99.9% turnover (instead of 100%), it’s consistent with 96% of all users leaving by the 3 month mark. If you assume a 99.99% turnover every 6.5 months, then it’s consistent with 98.5% of all users leaving by the 3 month mark.
If 96% to 98.5% of all users are leaving within 3 months, and 97% of men are leaving withing 3 months … what can you infer about the percentage of women leaving?
“Paragon said: (#507)
“My impression was that this statistic wasn’t limited to unsolicited communication, but also responses.”
Paragon said: (#509)
“you would seem to be advocating assumptions of equivalence based on a finding of approximately equal response rates for an OK Cupid study?”
I’m not saying there is equivalence because the response rates are similar. I’m saying your “impression” about non-equivalence extending to responses was wrong. The response rates are equivalent.
Paragon said: (#509)
“That sounds like a different study than the one I quoted.”
Both pieces of information come from this article. Your piece of data comes from the sentence following the 3rd graph. I was comparing the 5th graph to the 6th graph.
The 5th and 6th graphs aren’t identical, but you can’t make a strong case that one sex has a lower response rate than the other unless you cherry-pick your data points.
Paragon said: (#509)
“Consideration of such questions begs the question of your own bias.”
I’ve never made a secret of them.
Bias #1: If a person is having difficulty with dating, the problem isn’t the opposite sex. The problem (and the solution) lies within themselves.
Bias #2: Both sexes have equal power/choice within relationships. When a person claims the other sex has all the power, it’s because they have failed to recognize their own power/choices.
Bias #3: People are entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.
I’ve consistently displayed those biases through five or six years of contributing to this blog.
So I have an issue when comments (like the following) are made:
Paragon said: (#503)
“women are vastly more selective”
I’ve seen no evidence that women (in general) are more selective than men when selecting a spouse (as opposed to a casual sex partner). If one sex is more selective than the other, the difference appears to be slight.
For example, looking at 2010 census data for people aged 50-54:
87% of men are or have been married
90% of women are or have been married
Every one of of these people found a member of the opposite sex acceptable -and- were found to be acceptable by a member of the opposite sex. There is no “vast” difference in selectivity.
Let’s take a hypothetical man who is part of the 13% who has never been married. Is it because the available women are so selective that none of them find him acceptable? Or is it because he is so selective that he finds none of the available women acceptable?
The data doesn’t provide an answer. I strongly suspect there is a bit of both. But if the problem isn’t shared, then Occam’s Razor implies that the individual is more likely to be the problem than the entire dating pool.
Paragon 511
@ Karl R
“Do you think that Jupiter research only looked at how long men remained subscribed to online dating sites?”
If the scraps of cached electronic data I’ve found are non-corrupted, the original statement by Jupiter Research said that
97% of all subscribers quit within the first three months. (I don’t feel like paying $750 for the actual report just to confirm this wording.)”
Then you have access to different information.
But, I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
“I’m not saying there is equivalence because the response rates are similar. I’m saying your “impression” about non-equivalence extending to responses was wrong. The response rates are equivalent.”
I’ll let any interested observers parse the final graph of that study(Message Reply Rates Earned vs. Sender’s attractiveness) and draw their own conclusions with respect to the equivalence of response rates.
“Both pieces of information come from this article. Your piece of data comes from the sentence following the 3rd graph.”
Actually, it came from a Freakonommics edition published in 2006.
Please note the time stamp of the OK Cupid study you are referencing(2009).
“The 5th and 6th graphs aren’t identical, but you can’t make a strong case that one sex has a lower response rate than the other unless you cherry-pick your data points.”
You mean like where you (strategically?)interpret that average looking men are responding to average looking men at a higher rate, while failing to account for the fact the attractiveness ratings are skewed in the male population, while normally distributed in the female population?
“I’ve seen no evidence that women (in general) are more selective than men when selecting a spouse (as opposed to a casual sex partner). If one sex is more selective than the other, the difference appears to be slight.”
“Because of the financial and social hardship faced after divorce, most people assume that generally husbands have instigated divorce since the introduction of no-fault divorce. Yet women file for divorce and are often the instigators of separation, despite a deep attachment to their children and the evidence that many divorces harm children. Furthermore, divorced women in large numbers reveal that they are happier than they were while married.”
http://aler.oxfordjournals.org/content/2/1/126.abstract
Not only are females the major instigators of divorce, but they also more agreeable to it.
This lends to the interpretation that females tend to be the contrary sex, even with respect to marriage.
Also, you are failing to consider that men, unlike women, marry out of an overwhelming consideration for sex(a consequence of females being more – and males less – selective of casual sex partners).
This has ALWAYS been the case.
Thus, when we note that marriage rates have been declining steadily over time, we can observe some obvious patterns, which lend to reasonable conclusions that speak to female choice as the limiting factor:
“Another factor contributing to the decline in marriage rates, especially for less educated groups, is the rise in women’s earnings relative to men. Family demographers point out that as women’s wages have increased, fewer women rely on a spouse or partner to provide a weekly paycheck. Women now outnumber men in U.S. colleges, and a recent report by the Pew Research Center showed that there is a rapidly growing number of women who outearn their husbands.8 Demographer Andrew Cherlin argues that women’s higher earning capacity, and the declining economic prospects of young men without a college degree, are key factors contributing to the decline in marriage in recent years.9 The recession has exacerbated this trend because of its disproportionate impact on men with fewer job skills and less education.”
“http://www.prb.org/Articles/2010/usmarriagedecline.aspx”
This tells me that men tend to rely upon marriage(ie. as a long-term mating strategy, given poor availability of receptive casual sex partners) more than women.
Helen 512
Paragon: the fact that married women instigate divorce at rates higher than men is not proof that women are more selective. If anything, it would seem to indicate the opposite.
In truth, I believe that divorces have less to do with mate selection than some people seem to believe, and a lot to do with the overwhelming stress of raising children and the lack of extended family support nearby that used to be more common. To this day, wives disproportionately bear the burden of child-rearing. It is painted with rosy colors, but it is anything but that. The resentment from the false images portrayed by society, the perception of unfairness in terms of work load of the two partners, the loss of freedom in so many ways, the inability to share this unhappiness for fear that others would believe that it means not loving their children, and the sheer stress of caring for small ones day in and day out wears down the heart of even the most courageous women.
When a husband truly shares in these burdens, and they work as a team, that can alleviate the stress and help to preserve the marriage. Even then, however, there is no question that children place an enormous burden on a relationship. Until recently, no one felt they had any right to share these feelings; it’s all about protecting the kids and preserving that false glowing image. But now psychologists are beginning to study this more, and to confirm what we are experiencing.
This isn’t what you, Karl R and Paragon, were originally arguing about. But since you brought up divorce, here is one person’s truth. It has less to do with the partners themselves than you may think.
Karl R 513
Paragon said: (#511)
“you (strategically?)interpret that average looking men are responding to average looking men at a higher rate, while failing to account for the fact the attractiveness ratings are skewed in the male population, while normally distributed in the female population?”
Look at the line below that one (which is closest to the median in the female attractiveness ratings. That line gets a 44% response rate … compared to the 44% response rate men give to their median line.
Where’s the selectiveness difference?
You may have a valid criticism of the data point I used, but the more accurate data point isn’t helping your case.
Paragon said: (#511)
“women file for divorce and are often the instigators of separation”
Show me one shred of evidence that selectiveness is a cause for divorce.
Don’t just take one article. Google it and read the first 10 (or 100) articles. Top reasons include communication, infidelity, physical or emotional abuse and financial disagreements.
Paragon said: (#511)
“you are failing to consider that men, unlike women, marry out of an overwhelming consideration for sex (a consequence of females being more – and males less – selective of casual sex partners).”
Really? You may be talking about yourself. You’re not talking about me or Evan.
I agree with Jeff Foxworthy. Getting married for sex is like buying an airline in order to get the packets of peanuts.
Blaming the opposite sex for your dating difficulties may make you feel better, but it’s not a productive solution to dating problems, nor is it an accurate view of the situation. (This is true regardless of whether men or women are doing the blaming.)
Zaq 514
Just adding my thoughts here on recent comments.
Karl is bending over backwards to try to suggest that men are as picky as women.
Women having higher selection criteria is accepted by most research scientists in the field, who have suggested that this may be due to the higher commitment required by them in nurturing children.
The point of course is that the scientists would not be speculating on WHY something is occurring, unless there was plenty of evidence to show that it WAS occurring.
Are men who look for foreign brides losers, as suggested by Evan ?
Well I have previously given statistics on Norwegian men who marry asian women in large numbers.
It has been suggested that in a nation that prides itself on equality women have benefited economically. Unless the men can match the women’s earning power, they are deemed to be “losers”
The men have no alternative but to look elsewhere for mates.
So yes, the ones that need to find foreign brides are deemed losers by Norwegian women. On the other hand the men who look elsewhere are marrying much younger women. Do the men think they are losers ?
A couple of days ago I noticed an unattractive man with a very attractive asian women on his arm. I must say my first thought wasn’t “there goes a loser !”
This all makes sense if we consider the “what’s in it for me” theory of attraction. If women were not universally attracted to men with resources this would not happen.
But everyone’s a winner in this situation. The men deemed unacceptable in the west trade their resources for the thing they most value in women – youth.
As women (and Evan) define these men as “losers” they surely will not be missed. Should we not therefore be ENCOURAGING this ?
Helen 515
Zaq: “bending over backwards” implies twisting information or circumstances. So far as I can tell, Karl R is simply presenting facts and statistics. No backbending involved.
As for your last question: “Should we not therefore be ENCOURAGING this [cross-cultural marriages]?” – like you, apparently, I have no objection; but don’t see why we need to explicitly encourage or discourage it. After all, it’s none of our business. As long as two people are happy together, no matter what their ages or races or physiques, who are we to judge?
If you were to ask my personal opinion, I think that it is a very positive thing whenever cultures come together in a context other than war. When different cultures meet for educational purposes, or conferences, or athletic events, or love and friendship, there is always enlightenment and broadening of minds and experiences.
Paragon 516
@ Karl R
“Show me one shred of evidence that selectiveness is a cause for divorce.”
Don’t just take one article. Google it and read the first 10 (or 100) articles. Top reasons include communication, infidelity, physical or emotional abuse and financial disagreements.”
All of which shows that their thresholds of dissatisfaction(and by corollary, satisfaction), have relatively high specifity - which is one indication of how females can be more selective outside of casual sex.
Nature observes that – in the general case – females are more selective in ALL domains of mate choice.
I have observed much supporting evidence, and nothing to contradict that human females are a special case.
“Really? You may be talking about yourself. You’re not talking about me or Evan.
I agree with Jeff Foxworthy. Getting married for sex is like buying an airline in order to get the packets of peanuts.
Blaming the opposite sex for your dating difficulties may make you feel better, but it’s not a productive solution to dating problems, nor is it an accurate view of the situation. (This is true regardless of whether men or women are doing the blaming.)”
Resorting to ad-hominem arguments now?
Evolution is only sensitive to factors contributing to reproductive success(ie. it isn’t concerned with independent ‘quality of life’ outcomes), thus, in meaningful terms, LTRs have value only as reproductive strategies.
And since choices following from ‘free will’ are still subject to the forces of evolutionary selection, we can see that complementary behavioral systems have co-evolved.
Thus, even where individual outcomes fail to correspond with reproductive success, we can see that behaviors are still mediated by an adaptive legacy(ie. even where individuals are not successfully reproducing, we can see how their behaviors are still subject to tendencies that have been correlated with reproductive success in an evolutionary past, regardless of how they choose to rationalize these tendencies).
Paragon 517
Sorry, I meant to write:
Nature observes that – in the general case – females are more selective in ALL domains of mate choice.
I have observed much supporting evidence, and nothing to suggest that human females are a special case.
Paragon 518
@ Karl R
“Look at the line below that one (which is closest to the median in the female attractiveness ratings. That line gets a 44% response rate … compared to the 44% response rate men give to their median line.
Where’s the selectiveness difference?
You may have a valid criticism of the data point I used, but the more accurate data point isn’t helping your case.”
You are posing an obvious strawman – my argument doesn’t rely upon findings of an inferior response rate for males of an average attractiveness cohort, in that OK Cupid study that you keep interjecting.
I never made that contention – you know it, and so does everyone else.
@ Helen
” Zaq: “bending over backwards” implies twisting information or circumstances. So far as I can tell, Karl R is simply presenting facts and statistics. No backbending involved. ”
It also could imply making an effort to divert an argument in his favor – and in these terms he is contorting it into a pretzel.
A less biased observer will see this for what it is.
Evan Marc Katz 519
@Paragon – I guess I’m a less biased observer, because, to me, it looks like Karl is beating you like a drum.
David T 520
*yawn* Can you two just exchange phone numbers or email addresses or something?
Paragon 521
@ EMK
“@Paragon – I guess I’m a less biased observer, because, to me, it looks like Karl is beating you like a drum.”
Claims are trivial(that I am being ‘beaten’ like a drum), but justifications are a bitch.
You are more than welcome to add some (non rhetorical) support to Karl’s arguments, but I don’t think you will, as I suspect you are savvy enough to see that Karl is beginning to rely upon fallacious argument forms.
Again, my position has always been that – in the general case – women are more selective in all domains of mate choice(and thus, we should weight are assumptions accordingly).
This doesn’t change whether we are considering casual sex, or LTRs – there is no indication that Western women relax criteria for LTRs(even a cursory sampling of female commentary from this blog will lend support to this).
And to be honest, I don’t believe that any informed individual(including yourself), genuinely believes otherwise.
The real issue here, I suspect, is a clash of personalities and argument styles.
In that case, I think my detractors should spare everyone the pretension of a more substantive disagreement – after all, that’s what ad-hominems are for.
@ Zaq
“As women (and Evan) define these men as “losers” they surely will not be missed. Should we not therefore be ENCOURAGING this ?”
If this dynamic was just limited to locally undesirable ‘losers’, I would agree.
But, I think many western women are concerned with deterring ‘choice’ males from considering more attractive options in distant populations(which was one of my original points, that I suspect clashed with local sensibilities).
Zaq 522
Sorry, Karl is the one suffering cognitative dissonance.
I think his views should be ignored unless they agree with findings of ACTUAL experts. What do the behavioural scientists say that actually study this stuff.
I think you will find that they say that women are more selective than men.
Even in the Finkel and Eastwick study, the scientists started out with the statement that men are less selective than women.
Show us the studies that show otherwise.
And considering assortive selection in mating choice, it is more a case of the mate you end up with and NOT the one you select.
It is possible that women are just less satisfied with who they end up with and this may influence later divorce initiation.
It is certainly consistent with the data, if not proven.
As the saying goes: Women marry men and hope they change. Men marry women and hope they never change.
Evan Marc Katz 523
Thanks, Zaq, for most inane sentence ever written: “It is more a case of the mate you end up with and NOT the one you select.”
Au contraire. You don’t “end up” with someone for 40 years by accident. You select your partner and you continue to choose your partner every day. EVERYONE who gets married does this – “ends up” with a partner because the people you liked most in your youth disappeared or disappointed for years beforehand.
You and Paragon can go on and on about your assortive selection and your biological explanations for things but they don’t wash with reality. You’re so focused on the endgame of women holding all the cards because men ask women out and try for sex. You’re willfully ignoring that in EVERY relationship a woman can’t choose a man without HIS permission. BOTH parties have EQUAL power at ALL times.
To sum up, the partner you end up with IS the one you select. It’s also the one SHE selects. No amount of polysyllabic gobbledygook will change that fact.
Zaq 524
Then Evan, we are going to agree to differ.
This polysyllabic gobbledygook is what we call Science, and the reason why we have several rovers running about on Mars right now.
It makes no sense to say “it doesn’t wash with reality” when the whole point of science is to measure what is actually observed, come up with a model to explain the measurements, and which will also make predictions of future outcomes.
For example, do we observe that taller men receive more interest from women. YES.
Can we predict that taller men will therefore have more children. YES
Do we observe that taller men are more biologically productive. YES
Are taller men better mates. IRRELEVANT – NO EFFECT ON SUCCESS RATE
Are factors such as wealth, intelligence, status better predictors of future reproductive success of men, than kindness and integrity ?
Well you tell me.
For my part, the fact that I understand WHY women are attracted to jerks makes me less likely to cast blame.
Attraction is not a choice, therefore no one can be considered shallow.
Also I don’t think women hold all the cards. Ultimately they get to choose, true, but only from the men that are interested in them.
As my single female friends tell me with a sigh “but they are not the ones I actually want”
Evan Marc Katz 525
Zaq, since you’ve been reading this blog for awhile, do you REALLY think that I don’t believe in science? Is there any indication that I live in a dreamland, telling women what they want to hear, and indulging all of their fantasies? Every Thursday and/or Saturday, I link to another article on the internet about dating/relationships. Many of them are scientific. I use these to help create my own worldviews. You seem to make a lot of assertions based on what you THINK the science SHOULD be.
So, a simple challenge, should you choose to accept it. Show me an ACTUAL study that indicates whatever it is you’re asserting. Because relationships are always a two way street. And anyone who suggests that women are more selective than men has to bear the burden of proof. Showing that women online find more men unattractive is not proof. Showing that women initiate divorce more is not proof. In ALL relationships, a man chooses a woman and a woman chooses a man. Neither has MORE power unless the other party ACTS like it (men foolishly staying with women who are hot and crazy/women staying with rich men despite the fact that they’re jerks).
Similarly, I’ve never seen anything that illustrates that tall men have more children, despite the fact that women, in general, prefer tall men. They may have taller children, but MORE children? The average height of men in China got to be around 5’6″. Lots of kids there. Mexican men are short. Lots of kids there. Orthodox Jewish families have lots of kids as well. So it seems to me that you have a premise based on what you observe – tall, rich men get laid and short, poor men struggle… and you leap to the conclusion that women hold all the cards and are choosier.
Wait – sorry – you wrote: “Ultimately they (women) get to choose, true, but only from the men that are interested in them.” And how is this different from men choosing only from women interested in THEM?
In trying to misappropriate studies to make your case, you ignore the fact that over 90% of people get married eventually.
Which means that whether you’re short or fat or pretty or ugly or young or old, you eventually find a lid for your pot. It all sorts out in the end. Just go to a mall and look around. Even the people at the bottom of the totem pole finally select each other – yep, lots of stupid, short, fat, ugly people having kids last time I checked.
I’m not sure how you can disagree with anything I said, but I would encourage you not to impugn my logic skills or my belief in the value of science.
If you believe that anything I wrote is incorrect, don’t tell me I’m wrong, please, show me.
Selena 526
EMK #525
Standing Ovation!
Zaq 527
@Selena
The ovation is a little premature I think !
First Evan, I accept your challenge, of course. If there is anybody on this blog that actually bothers to read the studies it is me.
Indeed I place far more weight on actual scientific research than my own opinion, so that your assertion that I’m leaping to conclusions based on personal observations cuts me to the quick. Or would do if I wasn’t laughing so much.
Seriously though your assertion that I misappropriate studies to make my case infers that there are other studies that do not support my case. I think you will agree that the ball is in your court to provide details of those.
So the points of contention here are that you think there are no scientific studies that support greater female selectivity, or that tall men are more reproductively successful.
Lets deal with the second first.
Perhaps you may be interested in the work of Allan Mazur, PhD, Professor in the Social Science Program at Syracuse University
One of the lines that jumped out in this article from Professor Mazur:
“there is ample evidence that on all levels of courtship, women do make the choices”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-45118/Why-tall-men-children.html#ixzz23dvoT4I1
Or how about this study in the UK:
“The verdict that size matters is based on a study of 10,000 people born in the UK in a single week in March 1958.
Their health and social development has been followed for the National Child Development Study.
Dr Nettle’s team analysed data from the study in the year 2000 when the men and women were aged 42.
He found the taller the men were, the less likely they were to be single or childless”
The reason that shorter men have less children, is because they are less likely to mate at all.
And in another study published in the last week in the journal of biology letters, the researchers showed that although taller men WERE reproductively more successful, the population as a whole was not getting ever more taller, because the tall genes passed on female children made them LESS reproductively successful
I’ll deal with the other issue in the next post
Evan Marc Katz 528
Zaq, this is a perfect example of our divide.
Even if tall men DO reproduce more (fine by me) and even if Dr. Mazur SAYS “women make the choices”, that does not at all prove your original premise that women make all the choices.
I fail to understand how women make the choices when any man can dump any woman at any time for any reason. How does SHE have more control of our courtship than I do?
The very existence of this blog is a testament to the fact that men reject women for height, weight, age, intelligence, personality, sex, marriage, children and a whole host of other reasons.
So even if I acknowledge that taller men reproduce more (I never really doubted it; I just never looked for the answer), you still haven’t proven how women make all the choices. You just have your theory and find tangentially supporting evidence. Back to you.
Selena 529
I’m still standing up for Evan Zaq. How is it that you can’t/don’t/won’t understand that we CHOOSE EACH OTHER?
Zaq 530
Evan, this is not MY theory.
Please forgive the cutting and pasting in this.
One of the most fundamental principles of evolutionary psychology is that women are much more selective than men in their mate choice. Because women pay far greater reproductive costs by making the wrong choice, women have been designed by evolution to be more cautious and choosier than men in mate selection.
According to differential parental investment theory, the sex with the initially higher investment in the offspring—generally the female—has more to lose from a poor mating choice and therefore demands more before agreeing to mate (Trivers 1972).
This is true of all mammals, and the question is does this apply to humans.
In order to test this behavioral scientists have conducted quite a number of studies mainly using data from speed dating events.
Why speed dating ?
This is a compelling example of a naturally occurring market as in other field studies (e.g., Harrison and List, 2004 and 2008): that is, speed daters are not a convenience sample but a population observed in a natural environment, without experimental frame
Since social mixing can only be achieved if people choose to engage further with each other after a first encounter, these early choices are crucial for our understanding of the long-term formation of partnerships.
Mostly the results are similar in each study done, though it was shown that women were even pickier when given a larger choice of prospective mates.
In one of the largest studies done (Meeting Opportunities and Partner Selection:A Field Study )
1800 women and 1800 men participated in 84 speed dating events organized between January 2004 and October 2005
Striking gender differentials in proposal behavior are observed in the data. In line with sexual selection theory (Trivers, 1972; Buss, 2003), women are much choosier than men.
On average, women select 2.6 men and see 45 percent of their proposals matched, while men propose to 5 women and their proposals are matched in only 20 percent of the cases. About 1 in 3 men and 1 in 10 women do not get any proposal.
Peter M. Todd, of the cognitive science program at Indiana University did another study which showed that men’s choices did not reflect their stated preferences. Instead, men appeared to base their decisions mostly on the women’s physical attractiveness.
The men also appeared to be much less choosy. Men tended to select nearly every woman above a certain minimum attractiveness threshold, Todd said.
In the many studies that have been done, there is no study where men been have been observed to be more selective than women including the Eli Finkel study which appears abberant.
So the research so far supports the evolutionary hypothesis. The women appear to be holding out for the best men.
Yes men reject women, but they set the bar much lower. Only 1 in 10 of the woman did not get any proposal in the above data.
80% of the men were not matched and so didn’t get a date.
No date no relationship.
One could of course argue that the greater choice women have is illusory when they find out they all picked the same man !
Actually there is a video of one of these studies on the internet – sad but funny too.
The freakonomics data suggests this is probably going on with online dating too.
I have already pointed out the research showing that over 60% of men dating on-line do not get a single date.
Most men have no power at all and have to wait until women choose to settle.
When the woman complain about non committal men, they are only talking about the comparatively small number of men they are actually interested in.
Don’t agree ?
Well lets see the scientific studies that support your point of view
Evan Marc Katz 531
Zaq, I don’t (and really couldn’t) disagree with any of the science you shared. Thank you. What I disagree with are the conclusions you’ve drawn and the ramifications of those conclusions.
In other words, given that women DO prefer tall men, rich men, handsome men – in real life, online or in speed dating – what does that actually mean?
YOU conclude that because women are more selective that they have more control.
I conclude that even if women ARE more selective, it doesn’t change the bottom line.
Eventually, women “settle” on the men who treat them the best (even if they’re not rich) and men “settle” on women even if they’re not young and hot. And once there is a relationship, BOTH genders have an EQUAL ability to exit the relationship if they’re dissatisfied.
You keep talking about women having more choices – a woman can’t marry a man unless he CHOOSES to marry her.
I’ve acknowledged your points but refuted your conclusion. Will you do the same?
Or does the fact that this is indisputable common sense (as opposed to a double blind study) mean that you will not concede the validity of everything I just wrote?
Zaq 532
Ah well now Evan we are getting a lot closer.
Sorry, but I didn’t say women have more choice – at least I don’t think so.
As that is not my conclusion- you can’t disagree with it !
Being more selective is not a winning strategy, because all the women are competing for the same men.
They only get to choose to remain single, in the hope that the odds are going to improve, when in practice they get worse. They get the choice to settle.
The majority of men also have little choice. They do get to choose which women they approach but in practice being less selective doesn’t help them much.
They have to “choose” an enormous amount of women to stand any chance of a relationship. The women however get the final say.
If anyone has any choice, its the men in demand. They are spoilt for choice.
I agree with you entirely that once in a relationship both genders have an equal ability to exit the relationship.
Ruby 533
Well, I’ve already posted here a couple of times about this study, but if you are going to reference studies on speed dating, this one is appropriate: http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2009/06/finkel.html
I’ll quote some excerpts from the article here:
“When women were assigned to the traditionally male role of approaching potential romantic partners, they were not any pickier than men in choosing that special someone to date, according to the speed dating study.
That finding, of course, is contrary to well-established evolutionary explanations about mate selection. An abundance of such research suggests that women are influenced by higher reproductive costs (bearing and raising children) than men and thus are much choosier when it comes to love interests.
The new study is the latest research of two Northwestern psychologists whose well-reported work on speed dating offers unparalleled opportunities for studying romantic attraction in action.
Deviating from standard speed-dating experiments — and from the typical conventions at professional speed-dating events — women in the study were required to go from man to man during their four-minute speed dates half the time, rather than always staying put. In most speed-dating events the women stay in one place as the men circulate.
““The mere act of physically approaching a potential partner, versus being approached, seemed to increase desire for that partner,” said Eli Finkel, associate professor of psychology in the Weinberg College of Arts and Sciences at Northwestern and co-investigator of the study.
Regardless of gender, those who rotated experienced greater romantic desire for their partners, compared to those who sat throughout the event. The rotators, compared to the sitters, tended to have a greater interest in seeing their speed-dating partners again.
“Given that men generally are expected — and sometimes required — to approach a potential love interest, the implications are intriguing,” Finkel said….
…When the men rotated, the results supported the long-held notion of men being less selective. When the women rotated, this robust sex difference disappeared…
“The embodiment research shows that our physical activity and psychological processes interface in ways that are outside our conscious awareness,” Finkel said. “In conjunction with this previous embodiment research, our speed-dating results strongly suggest that the mere act of approaching a potential love interest can boost desire.”
The researchers suggest that confidence also may have affected the results. Approaching a potential date increases confidence, which in turn makes the approacher less selective.”
Paragon 534
@ EMK
“BOTH parties have EQUAL power at ALL times.”
They may have equal power, but they do not tend to have equal options.
“Showing that women online find more men unattractive is not proof.”
It IS proof that they are more selective in assessing mate attractiveness.
Is this a determinant in mate choice?
Consider: “A new study of romantic attraction by two Northwestern psychologists suggests that men and women are equally
inspired by physical attraction.”
http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2008/02/partners.html
“In other words good looks was the primary stimulus of attraction for both men and women, and a person with good earning
prospects or ambition tended to be liked as well,” said Eli Finkel, assistant professor of psychology at Northwestern.
What this tells me, is that since physical attractiveness was a limiting factor for BOTH sexes, and women are MORE selective in assessing attractive males – women are MORE likely(than men) to cull prospects according to assessments of physical attractiveness.
“Showing that women initiate divorce more is not proof.”
In their study titled “Child Custody Policies and Divorce Rates in the US,” Kuhn and Guidubaldi found:
“women anticipate advantages to being single, rather than remaining married.
When women anticipate a clear gender bias in the courts regarding custody, they expect to be the primary residential parent for the children and the resulting financial child support, maintaining the marital residence, receiving half of all marital property, and gaining total freedom to establish new social relationships.”
Thus, the causal factors contributing to divorce filings, clearly have higher specificity from the female side.
While this isn’t specific proof that women are more selective in choosing a marriage partner, it suggests that they are more selective in which marriages they maintain.
“In trying to misappropriate studies to make your case, you ignore the fact that over 90% of people get married eventually.
Which means that whether you’re short or fat or pretty or ugly or young or old, you eventually find a lid for your pot.”
Maybe that used to be the case, but that IS changing:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763219.html
As you can see, not only is number of never married individuals increasing over time, but there is a trend where male never married are increasing out of proportion with females(we do not know enough to say if this is merely a tempo effect of delayed onset of marriage – but I am confident that when the data is in, it will show that the proportion of never-marrieds ARE increasing over time)
“Even if tall men DO reproduce more (fine by me) and even if Dr. Mazur SAYS “women make the choices”, that does not at all
prove your original premise that women make all the choices.”
This is a strawman.
Evan Marc Katz 535
Paragon
1) It’s certainly not YOUR place to say who has what power or options in a given relationship, much less all relationships.
2) You’re ignoring that women will often marry less attractive men who are smarter or wealthier. Online photos are a flawed way of sorting. And I’m an online dating coach.
3) Women are not more selective in assessing attractive males. You’re saying that they are because it suits your biological evolutionary theory. The OkCupid study showed mostly people under the age of 40 on a free online dating site, assessing photographs. It said nothing about intelligence, manners, values, personality or all the other factors that matter in mate selection.
4) You found a study to back up your theory. Congrats. The real reason that women leave relationships is that men are more likely to be abusive, unfaithful, drug users, alcoholics, poor communicators, deadbeat dads, and so on. So they initiate 2/3 of divorces because they’re not content with that status quo. I think we’ve gone beyond the bounds of “mate selection” with this one.
5) You showed a study that said that, in their early 40s, 87% of women have been married and 80% of men. That’s still an overwhelming majority of people finding each other, despite your claims that women all hold out for tall, rich, men.
This is your religion and you’re working very hard to defend the things that aren’t fitting neatly into your theory.
So, Paragon, you may cease posting studies now, as you’re not coming any closer to convincing those who aren’t blind adherents to biological dogma. Good night.
Paragon 536
@ Ruby
“The embodiment research shows that our physical activity and psychological processes interface in ways that are outside our conscious awareness,” Finkel said. “In conjunction with this previous embodiment research, our speed-dating results strongly suggest that the mere act of approaching a potential love interest can boost desire.”
All this suggests is that when courtship behaviors are manipulated by experiment, the non-rotating sex tends to assume a more selective role(the most plausible explanation being that the non-rotating sex is tending to infer interest from the approaching party more frequently than the reverse, and thus anticipating more options from which to choose).
Of course, since males tend to assume the burdens of courtship(ie. they tend to make the approaches) – this is just further evidence that women are, in fact, more selective.
@ EMK
“Similarly, I’ve never seen anything that illustrates that tall men have more children, despite the fact that women, in general, prefer tall men. They may have taller children, but MORE children? The average height of men in China got to be around 5’6″. Lots of kids there.”
Different populations – given their options, women there may very well be favoring taller prospects.
“2) You’re ignoring that women will often marry less attractive men who are smarter or wealthier.”
We don’t have any evidence to quantify just how ‘often’ women marry men who are less physically attractive(But, studies surrounding the ‘self-seeking like hypothesis’ suggests that this is rare).
In either case, regardless of how often it happens it CAN’T say anything against women being more selective than men(so why bring it up?).
“The OkCupid study showed mostly people under the age of 40 on a free online dating site, assessing photographs. It said nothing about intelligence, manners, values, personality or all the other factors that matter in mate selection.”
No, it didn’t.
But, it occurs that none of these other criteria actually matters, where physical attractiveness is a limiting factor.
“You showed a study that said that, in their early 40s, 87% of women have been married and 80% of men. That’s still an overwhelming majority of people finding each other, despite your claims that women all hold out for tall, rich, men.”
I didn’t make that argument, but, again, my contention was that women are more selective(which isn’t challenged by the fact that the majority of individuals in older age cohorts have married), remember?
“So, Paragon, you may cease posting studies now”
How else should I support my arguments?
“as you’re not coming any closer to convincing those who aren’t blind adherents to biological dogma.”
Let’s give others the opportunity to draw their own conclusions.
Zaq 537
Ruby
I have quoted that study. It is saying something that is very doubtful considering the huge amount of evidence that we already have.
Please go and read what other scientists are saying about it.
Its a bit like the study showing neutrinos travelling faster than light. Was that likely to be true given all the evidence we had before.
I must say I am disturbed by the mention of the word “religion”. There is no faith in science. No agenda. Criticism is encouraged. Its the only way we can build robust models. And it really doesn’t care what people want to believe.
As we get more data our understanding will increase, but it is highly unlikely to lead to a U turn similar to saying we now think the sun goes around the earth.
I agree with Evan on women not being more selective on physical characteristics. It is probably the need to have a host of other qualities in their mate that is causing the problem. They are in a better position to compromise by concentrating on other attractive characteristics.
70% of the men being drug users and deadbeats. Not likely to be true is it.
If women have an in built dissatisfaction for most men it is far more likely to be a contributory factor in divorce
Saint Stephen 538
Zaq beat Evan hands down.
Ruby 539
Paragon #536
“All this suggests is that when courtship behaviors are manipulated by experiment, the non-rotating sex tends to assume a more selective role(the most plausible explanation being that the non-rotating sex is tending to infer interest from the approaching party more frequently than the reverse, and thus anticipating more options from which to choose).”
As I posted, that’s not how the researchers interpreted the findings. BTW, the studies you reference are also “manipulated by experiment.”
It’s the same with other study by Finkel that you cited:
“”In other words good looks was the primary stimulus of attraction for both men and women, and a person with good earning prospects or ambition tended to be liked as well,” said Eli Finkel, assistant professor of psychology at Northwestern. “Most noteworthy, the earning-power effect as well as the good-looks effect didn’t differ for men and women.”"
However, if you are a gender essentialist, then your mind is already made up, IMO.
Evan Marc Katz 540
I’m pretty done with this thread. And I’m pretty done with the men who continually hijack these threads for their own personal agendas. I am not daunted by arguing with you. I am bored by it. As are the majority of our other readers. You don’t represent my readers, nor do you represent the men that my readers would like to date. You represent socially awkward men who fare poorly with women and therefore cling to biological explanations to justify your rejection. You justify your closeminded shallowness under the guise that men have no choice but to pursue young, hot, virginal women because this gives them a better chance of spreading their seed. And so on and so forth. Except modern man has – and does – override its biological impulses all the time. In fact, it’s a cornerstone of 21st century society. Lots of fat people with children. Lots of poor people with children. Lots of marriages between ugly folks. So, do SOME men only hold out for Jessica Alba? Yep. And most of them are either single, lonely or chronic masturbators. Do SOME women ONLY hold out for George Clooney? Yep. And I rail against that philosophy, as well. That’s right, Warhammer fans, I encourage women to give dorky guys like you a chance. And eventually, even you will reproduce and keep your fingers crossed that your sons don’t resent women like you do and feel the need to go to the Phillipines to find a wife.
So, Zaq, Paragon, St. Stephen and the rest of you men who embody what women hate about guys – boys masquerading as men under the cloak of intelligence – you can take your philosophies elsewhere.
Life is too short to spend arguing with strangers. I wish you all the best in finding a blog you can agree with and in finding a woman who appreciates you as you are. But I can assure you that your disdain for most women and your lack of chivalry and self-awareness will be, as Paragon is fond of saying, a “limiting factor”. Good bye and good luck.
Selena 541
xoxo Evan.
Joe 542
@ Evan #525:
Come on, man. You know better than to use an argument like that. It’s clear that Zaq was referring to men and women in the same population. In general, Mexican women aren’t going to be dating Chinese men, and Orthodox Jewish women aren’t going to be dating, well, anyone (although they will be marrying only Orthodox Jewish men).
Paragon 543
@ EMK
“You represent socially awkward men”
The fact that someone is not a man-whore(despite opportunities) and is willing to consider women from cultures who place a higher value on social monogamy than our, doesn’t make them socially awkward, does it?
“who fare poorly with women”
I’ve found the love of my life – how much ‘better’ can one fare?
“You justify your closeminded shallowness under the guise that men have no choice but to pursue young, hot, virginal women because this gives them a better chance of spreading their seed. And so on and so forth. Except modern man has – and does – override its biological impulses all the time. In fact, it’s a cornerstone of 21st century society. Lots of fat people with children. Lots of poor people with children. Lots of marriages between ugly folks. So, do SOME men only hold out for Jessica Alba? Yep. And most of them are either single, lonely or chronic masturbators. Do SOME women ONLY hold out for George Clooney? Yep. And I rail against that philosophy, as well.”
Actually Evan, I’ve presented evidence from research surrounding the ‘self-seeking like theory’ of assortative mating, which observes a correlation between long-term mates and assortative mating(which also extends beyond facial similarities, in other studies I can link).
http://www.epjournal.net/articles/narcissism-guides-mate-selection-humans-mate-assortatively-as-revealed-by-facial-resemblance-following-an-algorithm-of-%E2%80%9Cself-seeking-like%E2%80%9D/
However, research also shows that while assortative mating is operating on (long-term)mate choice – it appears to be mediated by a male bias only.
Thus, It would appear that there is some selection bias on the part of males for pursuing like-resembling partners(perhaps owing to preferences aligning to expectations, where they assume assortative partners will be more receptive).
On the other hand, females do NOT share this bias, so we should assume that female choice is skewed by alternate factors(such as long-term benefits independent of male resemblance).
But, clearly, this is an instructive observation for any woman looking to maximize her liklihood of finding a long-term mate.
And supports much of what you are actually observing about people who ‘settle’(so hopefully you will allow this comment through).
My only contention, is for those people who REFUSE to settle(where questions of selectivity become THE relevant concern), we should expect they are more likely to be female.
“That’s right, Warhammer fans, I encourage women to give dorky guys like you a chance.”
You nailed that one – I LOVE Warhammer.
But, as my photo suggests, I am anything but ‘dorky’.
“And eventually, even you will reproduce and keep your fingers crossed that your sons don’t resent women like you”
I have no reason to resent women, but I am wary of any culture that breeds this kind of resentment through the sexual marginalization of ‘losers’(which is effecting an increasing proportion of males, as time progresses) – you should be wary of this too, given that this dynamic is clearly a measurable trend over time(and thus speaks to systemic problems, rather than personal ones).
Convention observes that the men women SAY they want, and the men they ACTUALLY choose, are frequently different quantities.
Ever heard the term: ‘the men women LOVE to hate’?
But, it is irrelevant, as I am ‘taken’(as I keep telling women).
“boys masquerading as men under the cloak of intelligence”
I’m as much man as anyone, and I’ve never met a man with balls big enough to imply otherwise to my face(if you actually knew me, personally, instead of relying upon some kind of bizzare caricature that you have constructed in your mind, I don’t think you would be making these assumptions).
“you can take your philosophies elsewhere.
Life is too short to spend arguing with strangers. I wish you all the best in finding a blog you can agree with and in finding a woman who appreciates you as you are. But I can assure you that your disdain for most women and your lack of chivalry and self-awareness will be, as Paragon is fond of saying, a “limiting factor”. Good bye and good luck.”
I AM chivalrous, and what you mistake for disdain, is just dispassionately expressed conclusions bornre of critical reasoning - which is, in fact, the BASIS of my relationship success.
But, I’m not one to overstay my welcome(especially when the blog owner has asked me to leave).
For my part, I bear you no ill will, good luck with the blog, and thanks for your time, and some interesting discussions.
Farewell.
@ Ruby
“As I posted, that’s not how the researchers interpreted the findings.”
As Zaq pointed out, the finds of this particular study represent an anomaly that cannot be unified with a wealth of contradictory evidence.
But, let’s ignore that for the moment, and pretend, for the sake of argument, that this problem does not exist, and consider these findings at face value.
What does this imply?
Since a lower female tendency to initiate is an expected consequence of their greater selectivity, these particular findings may be a special case where experimentally manipulating (evolved) behavioral tendencies are affecting cognitive systems that, in some unspecified way, are mediated by them.
But, good luck on manipulating these behaviors outside of an experiment, so the findings are moot to a default state of nature where women can be observed as more selective.
“BTW, the studies you reference are also “manipulated by experiment.””
It’s the same with other study by Finkel that you cited:
“”In other words good looks was the primary stimulus of attraction for both men and women, and a person with good earning prospects or ambition tended to be liked as well,” said Eli Finkel, assistant professor of psychology at Northwestern. “Most noteworthy, the earning-power effect as well as the good-looks effect didn’t differ for men and women.””
Yes, my point in referencing that study was to show that (single)women hold physical attractiveness as a dominant consideration(just like men), when making a choice.
The difference, of course, is that women are less likely to consider any given man(physically) attractive, than the reverse.
Where’s the controversy?
Kathleen 544
Interesting article from LA times today ….Maybe another reason a woman in her 30s may prefer a man around her own age if she wants children
Older fathers pass on more new genetic mutations to offspring
Greg 545
I am a 49 year old Male I have been single for 3 yrs now I love my age I am dating women in the 30 to 38 year old range and I am having a lot of fun .I can,t understand why this guy at 42 is having any problem. Perhaps it,s the women I have been meeting or what ever ,But I find women 33 to 35 are best for me we think a lot a like and get along well.
David T 546
I am a 45 y.o. male, and when I still had my profile up I was meeting and going out within my stated range of 35-55. Was meeting a lot and going out on 1-5 dates each depending but I could feel I was not ready to do more than just go out on dates so I pulled out for a while.
The actual ages of the women I went out with ended up being late 37-38ish to 50. Could not tell you if that was due to my selection of ages or who said yes or whatever, just kinda worked out that way.
I did meet one woman not through online dating who is 33-34. We clicked in alot of ways, and she will be a dynamite partner for someone someday, BUT she is just in a different place in her life. Has done less introspection, less aware of herself and . . . I don’t know. There is something there that I have a hard time describing in words, but Not A Good Match and it was pretty clear to both after just 10-12 hours together and on the phone.
My point is that is it more about where people are in their lives and self development than an absolute number. The number is useful for sorting through profiles because there is a correlation, between age and stage in life. (For instance, one 50 y.o. i went out with was hopelessly wrapped up in insecurity and paralysis and people pleasing) and while we are all ‘adults’ at 18, I think we change in many ways (if we work on it) throughout our lives.
franko 547
i am a straight man of 58 years old, and it is just so very hard meeting women around my age to date. even if i meet a woman that is ten years younger than me, that would be okay for me. i guess many women just feel that they should date men their own age.
Nicole 548
As a 36 year old woman who was told yesterday by an 18 year old that she thought I was younger than her, I am not so thrilled about dating older men. There was one guy trying to date me that I was working for once and his daughter (early 20′s) was very pissy with me because she could tell her father liked me and she thought I was her age. When I go out with older men, I often don’t find them attractive. I’m more trying to give them a chance because I want to find someone. However, I find that they are very rude to me. When I go out with younger men, they aren’t rude to me. They don’t boss me around, speak to me like I’m stupid and so on. I CAN and HAVE attracted men in their 20s, so, it’s hard to have patience with the middle age man who is comparing me to 20 somethings when men that age DON’T.
As for no age given online, the problem with that is that men use old pictures where they look younger and then they show up and you’re thinking YUCK, he looks OLD.
TheQuickStarFish 549
I’m a 35 yr old woman. In my experience, older men don’t keep up their body, health, and looks. They just let themselves go. I need be to attracted a man physically too. Growing older is not an excuse for letting go. The youth is wasted on the young. I don’t get why men waiting until they look like a blimp ..blob and then want to seek out a LTR. smh
Anathema 550
Kathleen 544
“Interesting article from LA times today ….Maybe another reason a woman in her 30s may prefer a man around her own age if she
wants children”
The most salient point of interest for me, was where they reported older women as risk-factors for down-syndrome(which, unlike autism, is an obvious form of genetic incompetence, and not merely a subjective attribution to human behavioral traits outside the ‘normal’ range) – all the more reason for reproductively minded men to favor younger
women.
But on the topic of interesting articles:
http://www.ergo-log.com/continuous.html
The moral, of course, is that a man’s sperm quality can no longer be taken to be a trivial assessment of age.
Nicole 548
“I CAN and HAVE attracted men in their 20s”
Then what’s the issue?
Or does the prospect of being a FWB or baby mamma somehow not appeal to you?
“it’s hard to have patience with the middle age man who is comparing me to 20 somethings when men that age DON’T.”
But, of course they do – why do you think younger men seek out older women to begin with(if not because of their reputation for being easier lays)?
TheQuickStarFish 549
“I’m a 35 yr old woman. In my experience, older men don’t keep up their body, health, and looks.”
From my observations, men age ALOT better than women(for every fat dude out there, there’s an even fatter woman – the difference is that the fat women seem more likely to think they are entitled to an athletic partner, despite themselves).
“They just let themselves go. I need be to attracted a man physically too.”
So, what’s the problem?
From your tone should I be assuming that your are fit and attractive?
If so, there is no need to concern yourself with fat guys(you should have plenty of slim suitors to choose from, given that fit and attractive women are even more of a rarity in your age cohort).
But, if you tending to attract only fat guys, then this must be saying something about *yourself*(and your evident market value).
“Growing older is not an excuse for letting go.”
Assuming their physiques are a symptom of ‘letting go’ to begin with(the issue of age related endocrine decline is beyond the scope of this discussion, but suffice to say that older people WILL tend to put on fat, for reasons that are quite outside their control).
Kathleen 551
Anathema
Im curious how old you are.
Interesting that your observations conclude that men age better. Im 53 and just got back from a 18 mile canoe race in Hawaii. My observations are that how people age is not so much based on gender. Its seems to me that exercise is a huge factor amongst other things
Also since Im 53 should I conclude from you that I have a reputation for being an easy lay since Ive dated younger men? I wasn’t aware that promiscuity was age related but thanks for enlightening me.
Anathema 552
Kathleen
“My observations are that how people age is not so much based on gender. Its seems to me that exercise is a huge factor amongst other things”
As we get older, we all experience age related endocrine dysfunction – we produce less anabolic hormones, and more catabolic hormones – a sure recipe for fat accumulation by way of declining metabolic rates.
And since women have lower reserves of anabolic hormones to begin with, and are more sensitive to catabolism, they are more predisposed to putting on non-lean body mass as they age – this all agrees with my personal observations(allowing for particular exceptions).
“Also since Im 53 should I conclude from you that I have a reputation for being an easy lay since Ive dated younger men? I wasn’t aware that promiscuity was age related but thanks for enlightening me.”
This reputation generally applies to middle-aged women, but I would suspect the effect would extend somewhat beyond middle-age years(since it would lend to a generalization concerning the sexual behaviors of older women).
“Women ages 27 through 45 report not only having more sexual fantasies (and more intense sexual fantasies) than women ages 18
through 26 but also having more sex, period. And they are more willing than younger women to have casual sex, even one-night stands.”
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2007422,00.html#ixzz26rTLxbTN
Another interesting study suggests that long term relationships with significant age gaps(favoring older men, and younger women) produce more children(obviously of little concern to women beyond child-bearing
years).
“Last year, a study of Swedish census information suggested a 4 to 6-year age gap is best, but new research has found that in some circumstances a surprisingly large gap – 15 years – is the optimum.”
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13497-why-men-should-pair-off-with-younger-women.html
Kathleen 553
Anathema
Im disappointed you didn’t disclose your age
Since I did very well selling an FDA approved testosterone Im well aware of the effects of hormones. The market for replacement in men is growing very rapidly since so many men over 50 have low levels. (Im not sure if its personally useful for you to know viagra doesn’t work well if your testosterone is low.)
Since the women over 50 I hang out with are athletic my observations aren’t the same as yours. Many of the problems associated with old age are similar to those of immobility/inactivity as Im sure you’ve already researched. While my friends and teammates are in great shape I see plenty of young people who are very overweight.
Your description of middle aged women being “easy lays” sounds derogatory. If I applied this description to men it would be amusing and silly .Younger men have told me they appreciate women who are sexually confidant, emotionally secure and know what they want. I guess they might know something that you don’t…but Im sure you can find another study …on something…
Sigh 554
I’m a youthful 32 year-old woman who isn’t quite ready to settle down, but won’t even consider dating a man below the age of 35. Single men in their early to mid 40s are delicious– grounded but fun. An elusive combination among the younger set. Also, ruggedly handsome, comfortable with themselves and their physicality, and on and on…
Anathema 555
Kathleen
“Im disappointed you didn’t disclose your age”
I am below middle age.
“Your description of middle aged women being “easy lays” sounds derogatory.”
Sorry, that was neither my intent, nor my own personal opinion, but merely an acknowledgement of popular assumptions that men
hold regarding the sexuality of older women.
“If I applied this description to men it would be amusing and silly”
Only because you would be stating the obvious.
“Younger men have told me they appreciate women who are sexually confidant, emotionally secure and know what they want.”
In this particular context, ‘sexually confident’ is a euphemism for being sexually ‘available’, and betrays the assumption that older women are more willing to ‘give it up’.
So when men say things like this they are communicating their sexual motivation (even if they are savvy enough to embellish their presumption by appealing to female vanity, and notions of independence).
Carmen Childers 556
I’m a woman in my early thirties and there’s many reasons that I’m reluctant to date a man over the age of forty. First of all for a forty year old man who’s never been married, I really don’t want to waste my time dating someone who may not have a genuine interest in settling down…ever. I realize this may be an unfair assumption to make about bachelor’s in a particular age group, but hey, we all make unfair assumptions from time to time. Another reason that I’m looking for someone close to my own age is that I’m looking for someone to grow old with. If an older man is not willing to love a woman who is in his own age group, what is he going to do with me when I’m in my forties and fifties? I’m not a used car, and this societal attitude that women lose value as they age disgusts me. I feel that I owe it to all of the older beautiful single women I know to date within my age group. It’s a collective effort on my part. The last and biggest reason I’m hesitant to date men in their forties is that I’m tired of being the proverbial shoulder to cry on in my dating relationships. Nothing is a bigger turn-off than meeting someone who brings up their ex within minutes of meeting them. My name is not Dr. Phil. I’ve run into a few bitter older men in the dating world. I received a request to chat recently from a man in his forties with the handle ‘girls-r-icky’. Seriously? Sounds like a keeper. I do admit my avoidance of forty year old bachelors is more of a guideline than a rule. I am open to the possibility that I could meet a nice man in his forties who has forgiven his ex(s) and is ready to settle down but I’m not holding my breath. For now on I’ll just stick with my own age group.
Kathleen 557
Anathema
Let me try to help you understand a simple concept
A sexually confident woman is more likely to be relaxed. She isn’t self conscious, experiences things fully, doesn’t obsess about rejection or failure. That is not the same thing as being sexually available.
Of course men may be appealing to female vanity because they are sexually motivated That is stating the obvious and that is not something new to me at mid age
Anathema 558
Carmen Childers
“First of all for a forty year old man who’s never been married, I really don’t want to waste my time dating someone who may not have a genuine interest in settling down…ever. I realize this may be an unfair assumption to make about bachelor’s in a particular age group, but hey, we all make unfair assumptions from time to time.”
You might want to reconsider this in around 10 years time(because I have a strange suspicion that you will still be here).
But, if you realize that this is a faulty assumption, why are you even making it?
“Another reason that I’m looking for someone close to my own age is that I’m looking for someone to grow old with. If an older man is not willing to love a woman who is in his own age group, what is he going to do with me when I’m in my forties and fifties?”
Nothing – you’ll never be an age peer(no matter how old you get), so you have nothing to fear from him hating women in his age group.
But, did it ever occur to you that older men may find themselves pursuing younger women for reasons that have nothing to do with age?
In these cases, your reservations would be completely unjustified.
Kathleen
“Let me try to help you understand a simple concept
A sexually confident woman is more likely to be relaxed. She isn’t self conscious, experiences things fully, doesn’t obsess about rejection or failure. That is not the same thing as being sexually available.”
Actually, sexually confident women are more likely to be ‘available’, for some of the very reasons you specified.
And guys are very cognizant of this(which takes us back to that original assumption that you seem to find so objectionable).
Fiona 559
Kathleen, Carmen, there will always be the Anathema people in this world. I choose to ignore them as I am as likely to be as uninterested in listening to their skewed views on why women should seek mates generations older that they have nothing in common with in real life as I am on this blog. I find that people spouting this sort of nonsense in real life tend to be the guys with no social skills you would be uninterested in anyway. I am also not at all clear about what point they are trying to make. The question was why women in their 30s prefer not to date men in their 40s. Evan nailed the answer so why they waste their time trying to convince women that they should want to date much older men when most simply don’t beats me.
I am also getting tired of reading comments that, at 37, I have “no” or “low” market value and therefore should just accept someone much much older, obese and/or totally uneducated when I am none of these things myself. Clearly I am not going to do this so I find such comments as unhelpful as they are spitefully revelling in my misfortune. I don’t mind dating someone a bit older, a bit overweight, a bit less well educated but at a certain point it just becomes obvious that the differences are far too great to make any sense.
Ruby 560
I think “Anathema” is really “Paragon”, hence the name!
Kathleen 561
Fiona
You are absolutely correct. I can’t imagine why the Anathemas of the world would spend time on a dating site geared for women and then insult the audience, unless they were not successful with women in the first place and had to vent their anger passively.
I suspect that if I saw him in person that would explain it all LOL
Jennifer 562
Ruby #560
I have very similar suspicions!
Like Kathleen and Fiona have said, it doesn’t matter. Sometimes I think I must be living in a *completely* different world because the attitudes and beliefs that men like anathema/paragon espouse are not something I run across with any sort of regularity in real life. Thankfully.
Nicole 563
@Ruby, I think you are correct. Same kind of overly long comments that attempt to sound intellectual, and yes, same kinds of insults towards women (again veiled in the same failed attempts at logic).
And just like he does when he signs off as Paragon, he’ll probably jump in again to a)insult us and b)brag about how successful he is with much younger, hot women.
Anathema 564
Fiona
“Evan nailed the answer so why they waste their time trying to convince women that they should want to date much older men when most simply don’t beats me.”
I don’t think any guy here honestly cares whether younger women date older men or not – I personally couldn’t care less.
It is simply interesting to deconstruct the faulty rationalizations that certain posters use to justify their positions.
Jennifer
“Sometimes I think I must be living in a *completely* different world because the attitudes and beliefs that men like anathema/paragon espouse are not something I run across with any sort of regularity in real life.”
You’d be surprised.
These kinds of topics aren’t generally discussed offline, and within mixed company – it is considered impolitic.
Online discourse is frequently less inhibited and more honest.
Welcome to the internet.
Kathleen
“I can’t imagine why the Anathemas of the world would spend time on a dating site geared for women and then insult the audience, unless they were not successful with women in the first place and had to vent their anger passively.”
You will find naysayers(your comments are no exception) in every topic, clashing with prevailing sentiments – does it stand to reason that they are all ‘bitter’ and unsuccessful.
But, I really haven’t insulted anyone – offense is always taken, never given.
So, if you find yourself insulted, you should ask some hard questions about yourself.
“I suspect that if I saw him in person that would explain it all LOL”
Yes, it is very interesting, if highly irrelevant, to speculate on the relationship between physical appearance and motives, for anonymous posters.
Yourself included.
Nicole
“And just like he does when he signs off as Paragon, he’ll probably jump in again to a)insult us and b)brag about how successful he is with much younger, hot women.”
I don’t see many insults coming from the dudes around here – it seems mostly one way traffic.
So, your comments have poor predictive power.
But, why do you care anyway?
You speak as if someone personally ate your baby, lol.
Jennifer 565
Thanks for the welcome, but I’m not new
I meant that not only are the types of views you hold not verbally expressed to/in front of me, but also that they aren’t bourne out in my life or the lives of my friends.
My only surprise comes when people *insist* their worldview is the only valid one, even when sizable evidence to the contrary is staring them in the face. I don’t see what people get out of that. But, to each their own.
Joe 566
Jason Bourne?
David T 567
@Ruby 560
I am inclined to doubt your precipitous conclusion as the antilemma implied by Anathema’s relatively comprehensible use of prose is suggestive of a personage with a greater range of style than Paragon has effectively demonstrated.
Jennifer 568
@ Joe #566
He must’ve been on my mind when I typed that!
Helen 569
Anathema = Paragon.
The length of the paragraphs. The use of the comma after the word “But.” The lack of spaces when using parentheses. The use of dashes. The method of reply to individual commenters. The hostility toward women, both in general and toward female commenters.
Ruby, Jennifer, and Nicole all had it right. It’s pretty easy to parse out. No one can hide it, even if he attempts to use more casual diction. Writing style is easy to identify.
David T, love your attempt to write with excessive verbosity. But your own style is even nicer.
Evan Marc Katz 570
Yeah, Anathema/Paragon, I thought I told you that your consistent antagonizing of my readers wasn’t cool. What part of that didn’t you catch?
Selena 571
Why isn’t Anathema/Paragon/Bill/Steve enjoying married life with his much younger Asian bride instead of antagonizing women on an internet blog is what I’m curious about. Uh…because there isn’t one? And unlikely to ever be one given the undisquised misogyny?
franko 572
it seems very hard these days just to find a good woman to date, especially that many of the women today are not very nice at all. women in their thirties hate to date guys in their forties, and that should not matter. i am in my late fifties, and it is much harder for me as it is to meet a woman to date. i had been married at one time, but my wife was the one that cheated on me. we were together for fifteen years, so going back out into the dating world is very rough for me now. i never realized that we have so many women now that have an attitude problem, and they are so hard to communicate with. and yet they will go after the ugliest guys, and i just can’t understand it. and they seem to go for the bad boy type of men, especially if they have a lot of money. go figure.
R.T. 573
I ran into the same problem when I started to date again this year after divorcing after 15 years of marriage. I was 40 years old and still wanted children (my ex “changed her mind” about having kids), so as you indicated if you find a woman who is 35 you’ve got to be awfully quick to make it work, and chances are they’re not interested. On online dating sites all the women who contacted me were 37 or 38 years old, already had 3 children, and didn’t want any more children.
What was I to do? Women have every right to decide who they want to date. Then I did something kind of crazy. I remembered one of my relatives married a woman from the Philippines. So I put my dating profile up on an international dating site.
The response was overwhelming. I had 400 women try to contact me in 10 days before I hid my profile. Now it is true that you have to weed out the ones that just want money from you, but I found there were a lot of nice women on the site just looking for love and a future. Eventually I found myself being practically stalked by a beautiful 31 year old with a 6 year old kid. The funny thing is, we really clicked as far as personalities go. One time I realized she’d stayed up until 3 AM in the morning to chat with me. 6 months later I went to visit her and we got married. Now we’re just waiting for the paperwork so she can come here with me.
Guys, it is a case of supply and demand. My advice is go where you are in demand. There’s absolutely no reason to be alone. Some of her friends are dating 70 year old guys. Heck, I had 18 year old girls seriously trying to get my interest, but I preferred a woman with more life experience and maturity.
Julia 574
R.T.=Anathema/Paragon/Bill/Steve
Kathleen 575
Julia …Good observation
It seems you are right. RT/Anathema/paragon/Bill/Steve has become very tedious
Anon 576
You are totally deluded. Women detest younger men. I am a 40 year old guy who routinely dates women from 21 to 33 and I can tell you that they view young men as boys. The problem lies in yourself. Maybe you are boring. Yes women want a responsible “adult” in their lives, no they do not want to date a weak feminine man. They want a real man who has balls and knows how to entertain and take care of a woman. Be more assertive and you’ll get dates.
Anon 577
Also, online dating is not effective for men. The women get swamped with emails and they view men who are too afraid to ask for a date in person as losers and so they end up ignoring their emails and waiting for a guy to actually man up and ask them out.
Evan Marc Katz 578
Hey, Anon. Go on Match.com. Do a search of women 21-33. See how many of them are searching for 40 year old men. Oh, wait, maybe that’s what would explain why you think online dating isn’t effective for men. It’s not effective for YOU.
health junkie 579
Using synthetic hormones based BC Pills is the reason Western women lose their fertility so quickly. It’s weird that doctors push those endocrine disrupters instead of non-hormonal UIDs. My grandmother was pregnant with my mother at 45 years of age, within a few weeks after starting a relationship with my grandfather (12 years her junior) whom she later married. My mother had her last abortion at 56.
Mavis 580
i find it sickening that men refuse to date women their own age. i’m 30 years old and have an online dating profile, and my search preferences are set to age 25-35. however, most of the men who message me are aroundmy dad’s age (or older. the oldest was close to 70). i’ve never been married before, have no kids, and am not very experienced with men. i also look very young for my age. the last thing i want is to be with some guy who could could be mistaken for my grandfather. i think it’s gross, and men are very shallow and unrealistic to expect this. i recently got a message from a 52-year-old (about par for the course) and when i looked at his profile, HIS preferred age range was 18-37. i was so outraged i wrote him back, wondering if this was an oversight? seriously, 18?? that’s bordering on illegal, and a pedophile if you ask me. i didn’t say all that, but did (politely) ask him about it, and he wrote a very friendly, calm-sounding message back in which he clearly indicated that he sees nothing wrong with it. now i’m getting angry all over again. as for the guys my age? well, they seem to think they can get a supermodel, so most of them ignore me.
Mavis 581
ps. my last boyfriend was seven years younger than myself, and some people called me a “cougar” while we were dating, but we got along great.
Dus 582
i have read this entire page. Can we please now come back to reality? 1) most males marry someone their junior not senior. 2) Most big age differences, the man is the older one? 3) women in every age bracket are more likely to wed a man 10 or 20 years her senior than junior by a LONG shot in terms of numbers. That is a fact verifiable by looking at government statistics and is consistent in every country on earth. Most females are with someone their senior. Thats just a fact. Could be 2 years, 5 years, 10 years or 30 years. There are couples 33 years apart in marriage.
Peter 583
Dus,
Once you have made an adjustment for the “normal” two year age difference, British statistics (I gave a link far above) show about equal number of large age difference marriages whether man or woman is older. However, the divorce risk is increased the older the woman and decreased, the older the man, except that the highest divorce risk is the “normal” two year age difference. The graph is a sloping line with a peak intruding in the middle.
marymary 584
stats are interesting but you can have a “normal” relationship with a man taller, older, who earns more, has the same religion, background etc and it still disintegrate. I,m sure we have all had that experience.
yes your relationship may be unusual but a pie chart or graph in a govt office is not going to determine its success or failure.
“I,m breaking up with you because I saw these stats in the paper!”
If you,re an outlier, pay more attention to shared values and goals, how well you get on, Whether there is genuine love or you,re just going through the motions. actually that applies to everyone. And screw what anyone else thinks. In fact, being overly concerned with what others think may be more of a problem than the relationship itself.
that said if you,re obsessed with ONLY dating the very young or old or someone sixteen months and a day older/younger than you, you may not be helping yourself.
Peter 585
MaryMary,
The conclusion that I draw from the British statistics is precisely yours. The people with unusual differences are the ones who have more stable marriages.
Some unusual differences are more stable than others but they are all reasons to stop and think. As well as the British age difference statistics, there are American ones dating from about 2002 for international marriages arranged through internet marriage agencies. The research was done because some US loby groups imagined that the women were divorcing as soon as they had sustained the three years required for a green card. In fact, at the 5 year mark, the international marriages had a divorce rate one fiftH of the normal US 5 year divorce rate. So the final legislation was about protecting the women and the social security system from inept males.
When it comes to interracial sexual desire, the UK has many examples of single white mothers with mixed race (African) babies. There are far fewer interrracial marriages. I don’t have good figures. They haven’t been published since the 1991 census; presumably the figures are not conducive to good race relations. There are mixed race (Celtic British/Malaysian and English British/Punjabi) marriages in my family. Those involved seem to make extra efforts to deal with problems and deliberately set aside time to talk.
As you suggest, people with extreme differences may actually think more about what they are doing than allow themselves to be swept along into marriage by sexual desire. Thus they end up with more stable relationships. Anyway, it’s the class barrier that counts in a well organized society!
Peter 586
@Zaq. I am myself guilty of studyitis or at least statisticsitis. However, Psychology and sociology are about as scientific as climatology. They are trying to observe multi-variable, chaotic systems in which genuine experiment with prediction generating results beyond the small sample studied are impossible. Also, the strait jackets of peer review and funding criteria maintain conformity of opinion. It’s not physics.
jane 587
Basically, women in their 30s start getting a clue as to what is good not only for themselves, but also for families and society. And what is not good for them or society is some guy (i.e. many if not most) who was “meh, whatevs” to all the women who had been taking him seriously while he was biding his time doing his own thing. A lot of women in their 30s are being, and I testify, abused by this economic way of looking at dating. Even referring to is as a market isn’t good for people or society. And a guy in his 40s looking for a woman to breed with is as transparent as they get; the only way he’s going to come off smelling like a rose in this search is if he actually is a widower. You don’t marry a woman who does not want to have children saying that’s ok, and then divorce her when you change your mind but she doesn’t. You aren’t a man if you cannot form an honest and stable relationship with a real woman and then commit to her according to what is fair for her interests – not what feels like a good deal for you. And then you find a social, unselfish way to still be a man in your relationship and society and fulfil your familial urges, for these are laudable, in some other way than being your own family patriarch. Because ultimately that urge, as well as the wish to get a younger woman, is about status.
Tim 588
Hello, I am now a single man 49 after 24 years of marriage and have no children and pretty much given up on having them because not many women under 40 want to date a guy my age. I am in great shape, dress nice, and am social. My problem is I am finding it hard to date women in my age bracket, say 45-51. Either the women had a bad relationship and are wary or something. I understand them being concerned about the next “guy”. So far, it has pretty much been a dud in the relationship scene.
Karl R 589
Tim said: (#588)
“My problem is I am finding it hard to date women in my age bracket, say 45-51.”
That’s a very narrow age range. We’re no longer in high school or college (where we’re surrounded by hundreds of women within a few years of our age). While you’re probably willing to expand your age range to younger women, you’ll see better results if you expand it to include older women.
Tim said: (#588)
“I am now a single man 49 after 24 years of marriage”
If you’re a recent divorcee, people will be wary of that. People looking for a long-term relationship don’t want to be your rebound relationship.
David T 590
I am sorry you are frustrated, Tim. First, I am 46 and recently dated an attractive woman 13 and change years younger who was very into me. I broke it off after two months because of my lack of attachment, but the point is there is hope if you still want to have children. Just don’t make that a dealbreaker, maybe. Be open to the younger women, just don’t count on it.
Outside of that I have had little trouble finding dates with quality women of substance (and getting second and third dates usually when I asked for them) when I have tried during the past year and a month. I am taking a break these last few months because I am tired of leading women on with my emotional unavailability. So all I can think is there is something in your approach or dating style that is Not Working.
Evan still takes on some male clients, though if he is super busy right now who knows if he has time. Contact him through the website. He was very gracious about talking to me about my issues when I approached him a year ago, though in the end we determined he could not really help me with my problem. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Give it a shot.
P.S. Not having a dating life does leave ample time for things like exercise, volunteering, hobbies, faith if that is part of your life, and friend relationships. Make the most of enjoying these other parts of your life and think of finding a happy relationship as a nice addition to it. It can be an important goal you want, just don’t live in that need.
Tim 591
Thanks David. My ex wife and have have essentially been separated for more than two 1/2 years and the divorce was recent, in fact I am the one who initiated it. I do keep myself busy working out and church, and singles meetups. I am not in a rush to get married again so I don’t believe a relationship would not be a rebound. I have dated one gal, she is 41 but like yourself I felt little emotional attachment. It may take some time I just cannot worry. I feel once I relax then things will fall into place. Good luck in your adventure.
Di 592
I’m impressed, Evan.
I recently started online dating–and seriously so. I am 35, active, and quite youthful both in body and spirit. I’m overweight, yet I’m frequently told–mostly be older men–that I’m sexy. Men in their 50s and 60s LOVE me, but they are not what I need.
I used to always like men who were a little older, and would consider a guy who was 10 years older, because guys in their 20s are often idiots. I would still consider a 45-year-old at this point, but there are two different kinds of men in their 40s: young men and old men. I need a youthful man. I need someone who is healthy and can keep me going. I plan to mountain bike when I’m 80. That’s kind of hard to do if my life partner can’t keep up with me. Think about what I said–this is a health issue more than an age issue. If you look old, chances are, something is going on.
Another issue is that many guys in their 40s don’t want kids, either because they’ve already had their kids, or they’ve had vasectomies. This is *completely* unfair to me. I’ve never been married and I don’t have children. If I meet “the one” and we marry, I want to be the *only* mother of his children. For religious reasons, divorced men are off limits.
Unfortunately, men in their 30s do seem to be more particular, and I don’t seem to be the right type for most of the guys I message. Mind you, I contact guys who have a lot in common with me and who I think I would really hit it off with. While most of my messages go ignored (they do check out my profile), those who responded and *have* read my profile responded quite favorably. Apparently, I have a great profile and these guys appreciate my intelligence and depth (some have actually written, “Great profile!”). Either that, or the “competition” isn’t all that.
The good news is that the guys who are my age that are responding to me seem to be quality men. Perhaps that’s the very thing they have over those who aren’t responding. I’m also finding that now that I’m in my 30s, I really enjoy men who are my age. Most of us are in the same place in our lives and men in their 30s are just so much better than those in their 20s. My advice for the 40-somethings: embrace women in their 40s. Those who take care of themselves will more than likely be fertile. Women in their 40s who are treated well greatly enjoy sex (I hear it gets better with age according to my older lady friends). And older women, I think, are more likely to be open and honest–no crap–which is really ideal for men.
Evan totally nailed this one.
Di 593
Selena (#7) said, “You don’t look 10 years younger than your age to someone who actually IS 10 years younger than you are. Trust me.”
Not true. When I was 30, my college classmates assumed I was 18-20. Just last year, most of the people I encountered at work thought I was in my early 20s. I’ve consistently come across as 10 years younger.
I think the major difference now that kind of gives away my age is my attitude and how I carry myself. Very few people assume I’m 35.
Karl R 594
Di said: (#593)
“When I was 30, my college classmates assumed I was 18-20.”
My oldest nephew graduated from high school last year and is a freshman in college now. How old is he?
One of my nieces is in kindergarten. How old is she?
Did you guess that they were 19 and 6?
Okay. How old do they look?
You correctly guessed the ages of two people without seeing them. You based your guess on other contextual information: what grade they were in.
So when a bunch of 18-20 year old college students thought you (a fellow college student) were also 18-20, why do you assume that their guess was based on your looks, instead of other contextual information?
Di 595
Karl, most of the people I work with are in the 30-60 age range. How do you explain them assuming I was in my early 20s? When I was buying beer a few years back, the younger cashier asked for my ID. When she saw my age, she exclaimed, “Wow! You look good for your age! How do you do it?!” Yes, she was THAT surprised.
Also, please read what Selena said. I was refuting her absolute statement. There is really nothing to argue about here.
Di 596
BTW, Karl, college is no longer reserved for recent high school grads. I’ve always had older people in my classes, and by older, I mean 10 to 20 years older.
Sarah 597
I think the response to this gentlemen’s question on point. I am a 35 year old female, and I know I should be feeling the biological clock and considering a man in his 40s, however dates with men in this age range are nothing short of torture. It’s very evident, that they are stubborn and set in their ways, most are not athletic, they are over the typical fun date activities, and some make it very clear they want a younger women to have kids with. In this way I feel like they are just looking for a breeder, any vacant womb will do. It doesn’t make a women feel special at all.
Hayleyp 598
I have enjoyed reading theses comments and some people are right on the money about biology nature is unfair to women but younger women will alwyas be more attracive because of thier fertlitly. You migt be in your thirties and look younger but you are not. Youth only comes around once in a lifetime and there is no getting it back.
Hayleyp 599
A women may keep herself up and look good on the oustsie but the one thing she ccan not change is her voice. A young person naturally has a higer and more sexier voice.
Marc 600
This is a tired discussion that will go round and round forever. In general, I believe these discussions are kept alive by 40+ women who are upset that guys their age are not interesed in them. (At least the guys that THEY like).
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I am a 33 yo male who lives and travels throughout Latin America. I do meet women online, and I am “tuned in”, as I pay close attention. My personal research has concluded the following….
Women at..
18-22 are looking for guys their age, maybe 3-5 years older
23-28 (this is where women seek the biggest age gap) are looking for guys 10-15 years older.
29-39 are looking for guys a Little closer in age, about 5-7 years older
40+ are actually looking for guys slightly younger to 7 years older. This is where is gets weird because women at this age want guys their age, and this is when guys are looking for the biggest age gap. (younger obviously)
Many women dont want older guys when they are 30+ but know they will be lonely if they dont capitulate, as most quality guys would rather play the field forever and sleep with many average girls, than commit themselves to an older woman forever.
Girls try to shame older men into “wanting” older women, but we cant argue with Mother Nature and her 3 billion years of wisdom. She progammed us. If a 26 year old woman wants to date an 18 year old man, so be it. Who cares? If she wants a 77 year old, whatever? What do I care, has nothing to do with me, as I am neither. I just find women who want a guy my age, simple. Women should do the same.
Dee 601
Oh my
I’m a 43 year old woman. I don’t consider myself the most hottest woman but I certainly am no haggard either. I’m 5’8 115 lbs., own my own business, have my own passions and interests, physically attractive and have been approached by men from their early 20′s (for sex), 30′s (possibly for sex), 40′s (date or two, possibly for sex) 50′s (maybe for dating but possibly ends for sex) 60′s (now we’re talking gross). It is very discouraging to know that when a woman approaches 40+ you seriously get put out to pasture. I don’t understand it. I would prefer to date someone 5 years within my age and it really makes me mad I’m judged because I’m 43. I’d rather be single at this point than to have to deal with the immaturity and shallowness of men of all ages these days! It’s completely unfair and unrealistic on the sides of both genders! I do wish that it was easier to meet a sincere, genuine person. I do agree we all have to be attracted to the opposite sex and 100% agree that it’s important to take care of oneself as they age. I have done that and still maintain for my own preference. What is one to do?? I’m not looking to get married but it surely would be nice to find a person to share life with but I’m thinking from what I’m hearing, reading and experiencing, it isn’t going to happen. Ho hum!
Fi 602
@ Marc #600
Many women dont want older guys when they are 30+ but know they will be lonely if they dont capitulate, as most quality guys would rather play the field forever and sleep with many average girls, than commit themselves to an older woman forever.
I’m assuming when you are talking about “quality” guys, you’re only referring to their physical quality? Because to me that’s totally not the “quality” that I’m looking for. If all guys at my age (IF, I’m not saying that’s what the reality is) are only planning to “play in the field,” I’d rather be single forever. (HELLO!being single IS and OPTION too!)
Now I do feel the benefit being a single mother because I no longer have the “biological clock ticking” problem! muahahaha!
Sparkling Emerald 603
OK, I admit, I didn’t read the whole article, but I wish online dating was around when I was in my 30′s.
I would have LOVED to have met an attractive 40 something year old man looking to for a wife and future mother of his children. I actually had a (brief) relationship with a 42 year old man starting when I was 29, on the cusp of 30 (my 30th birthday was one of our dates)
The problem wasn’t that I didn’t want to settle down, or that I wasn’t into him. (In fact, his being 40 something was a BIG part of the attraction, he seemed so sexy, confident and sophisticated compared with men in my age group) The problem was, he was divorced, had grown children (21 & 19) so he had been there, done that, wasn’t sure if he wanted to do it again. Also, since he married young and was freshly divorced, he wanted to “play the field”. And YES, I was one of those women who believed the positives and not the negatives (he wasn’t ready for a serious relationship) He kept telling me he was “torn” between wanting to be exclusive with me (I think I was his rebound girl) and wanting to explore his options. I would have LOVED to have met the never married, ready to settle down version of him when I was in my 30′s.
So to the original OP, don’t give up, there is a girl out there who’s looking for someone exactly like you. Maybe MOST girls in their 30′s want men their own age, but there are many who find older men intoxicating. (I know I did ! ) And a 30 something girl with no children, who wants children, well you could be just what SHE’s looking for. I know that was true for me.
Marc 604
254
“Attractive 25 year old women” may be considered less attractive when compared to other 25 year old women than when compared to attractive or middling thirtysomething or fortysomething year old women. Dating significantly older (7 years plus) is how less attractive young women sometimes “make up the difference.” I see older men pursuing younger women, the likes of whom they wouldn’t have looked at twice when they themselves were at their attractiveness peak and “young women” were their default dating pool instead of an inherent luxury. In my teens and early 20s, I was largely ignored by men my own age. Who showed up, though? Older men… in droves. Many girls embrace it - I’ve heard them discuss similar phenomena in glowing terms - I spent that entire time wondering what was wrong with me because I wasn’t deemed good enough by guys my own age. Now that I’ve found them, I do not care if I “peaked” at 21, I feel much more attractive *now* at 25 because a higher number of more attractive men in their 20s are showing interest in me.
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Good points. I find myself attracted to younger women whom I KNOW I would have never looked at twice when I was her age. I think as we age, we appreciate youth more. I am 33, and would never consider dating a woman my age or older, although I would/have dated my peers up to my late 20s.
.
I think overall youth trumps beauty. My friends and have these types of conversations often. We ask things like “choose, girl with a 10 body, and 7 face, or a 10 face and 7 body?” or “All things being equal, would you marry a 20 year old “6″, or a 30 year old “9″?”. (all responded with a 20 year old “6″, even though we understand that she will never be a 9, those extra 10 years of youthfulness are priceless).
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@Kline, he speaks a lot of truth, he just wraps it up in a rough package, making everyone fight with him! LOL. I know Evan at one time remarked “I have a 42 yo wife because I wanted a woman not a girl”. For me its the opposite. I dont want a “woman”, I definitely want a “girl”. If I can see the old woman in her face, and face it people, sometimes you can, even in a 20 year old, I wont date her.
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Everyone is bickering about what the other sex should want. Dont get worked up over it. Just find someone who is looking for someone in your age range, simple really. I am 33, and date girls from 17 to 22. (legal where I live), but I understand not all 20 year olds want a 33 year old. So guess what? I dont date THOSE PARTICULAR GIRLS!
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Another thing I find some women here saying is “I am 40 and I date 26 year old guys”, or “20year old guys hit on me”. Dating, or being hit on by a 25 year old when you are 40 is definitely not a compliment. It is value lowering behavior for both parties. He is either insecure, or wants a ONS gilf situation, and you would be using him for maratón sex or something similar. The younger girl/older guy dynamic can be value raising for both, but the opposite, not so much.
Cat 605
@Marc 604 – I couldn’t agree with you more that a 40 year old woman being “hit on” by a 26 year old man is not a compliment. Oddly enough, so many women in their 40′s still will try a date or 2 with a much younger man thinking she must be really “hot” because this kid wants to take her out. The real story is a 26 year old man sees a 40+ yr old woman as a “notch in the belt” opportunity & an experience with a MILF & that is it. No matter how “HOT” she thinks she is at 40+…I am SO glad I never put myself in that situation. I have a dear friend who “dated” a much younger man last year, she was 40, he was 28 & surprise surprise he “wasn’t ready” for a relationship. She fell head over heels & I told her from the start he was no good. He would call her about once a week, feed her some stupid bullshit line to get her in bed & then disappear for a few weeks, until he was horny again. Thank god it didn’t last too long, but she was definitely a notch in his belt & something to tell his buddies about. What I don’t understand is the draw a MILF is to so many younger men? Why would a man in his twenties want to experience some “old broad” in her 40′s? I don’t care how hot she is, she’s still over 40. I don’t mean to offend anybody out there, I am a 44 year old woman myself. I am thankful I was smart enough when I was single to not get sucked in by some 20-something year old kid that wanted to “give it a go” with a 40+ yr old woman & be used & tossed out. For all you ladies out there that are 40+ & have some kid wanting to take you out, don’t do it, unless you don’t mind being a “notch”!
Sparkling Emerald 606
Cat 605 -
I know 3 women who married younger men. 2 with an approx 20 year age diff, one with a 10 year age diff. One ended in divorce, AFAIK, the other 2 marriages are intact. It’s not always about a notch in the belt, but FTR, my preferred age range that I have in both my online profiles is plus or minus 10 years of my age.
Marc 607
Many women here claim to be 40, but look 30. I can tell you that 3million years of Mother Natures instinct has kept us men way more advanced than any surgeons knife, or any syringe of filler. We look at any woman and think “yes, she looks good for 40, and her procedures are not overboard”, but we NEVER think you are 30.
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Us men dont care if youre 40 and interested in 40 year olds, or 20 year olds, or even 70 year olds. Why do so many women here care about what us men are interested in? Everyone has their age range in which they look. If youre 40 and want a guy that wants a 40 year old, find him. They are out there. Im 33, and interested in girls in their late teens to early twenties. So women are that interesed in teenage to early twenty guys are overlooked by me. I simply dont engage them. What gives here? Its simple. Dont try to change society at large, just…..flow.
Cat 608
@Marc 607 – again, I couldn’t agree with you more. There are a lot of women (& men) here that claim to be 45 “but look 30″ etc etc. I agree with you, a woman that is 45 & looks good for her age still just “looks good for over 40″. And yes, I agree Mother Nature has honed men’s skills in determining women’s ages, no mater the amount of work done. And you’re right also that no one should try SO hard to “look young for their age” so they can find a younger date. Date who you date. It seems harder for women in the dating game at an older age (based on physical attractiveness) than it is for men, but life isn’t fair. It is what it is. I am glad I am not single or dating. It seems horrific out there in the dating world!
CaliforniaGirl 609
Interesting how men here try to convince women that they are old and undesirable and they can tell their age by just looking at them. Everyone is different and every situation is different. I am 36 and have been dating a 29 old guy for more than 3 years. His friends think I am in mid to late twenties. Before him I dated a guy 10 years younger for almost 2 years. I find most men in their forties boring and bitter. Most of them do not put any effort in their appearance and usually are angry at life and women. They are lazy and square and think that I’d be thrilled to go out with them to some cheap place for just drinks where they ask if my Prada purse is fake because how the hell a single woman can afford a designer bag
I would rather date younger good looking guys without money but they can have fun even for free and their feelings are genuine and they are excited to see me and they actually show it.
Marc 610
@609 Well put. I feel the same as you in regard to women in their 30s and 40s.
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In regard to the Prada purse. It may be just a random example, if it isnt, has anyone ever told you that if you actually bought a real Prada purse, you fell for a scam? With wealth comes responsibility. Look at the Price of the bag in relation to your net worth. It should be roughly .000000000000567%. If it isnt, youve been tooled by a rich corp that targeted your vulnerability. BTW, my Jeep is less than 1% of my net worth. Just sayin.
Kathleen 611
Ca girl 609 I agree with you!
It seems younger guys are more attracted to me even though Id be very happy with a guy my age .
It was an awkward moment though the other night when my date got carded!!! LOL ( Hey he was legal at 35)