Why Don’t Men Hate Being Single As Much As Women Do?
Dear Evan,
Why don’t men hate being single as much as women do? I know you say most men are marriage-minded underneath but they seem much less interested in getting into a stable, committed relationship than women do, and seem to drag their heels.
Some of the things I hate about being single are (in no particular order): lack of love, affection and emotional support; not having someone to go on vacation with; not having someone to share domestic tasks with; being excluded from social gatherings because I don’t have a partner; not having someone to talk to at home on a day to day basis; having to cope with the financial burden of being single (apartment, bills etc.); not having a regular source of quality sex available.
Surely these things apply to men just as much as women? If this is the case, why aren’t men jumping up and down with excitement when they meet someone they connect with, like we are? Why aren’t they just as keen as we are to know “where things are going” early on in the relationship? A lot of men my age seem uninterested in a committed relationship, seeming to prefer a more casual “low investment, low return” approach to relationships. Do men actually ENJOY the endless tedium and stress of going on a string of disappointing dates? Or does it all simply come down to the capriciousness of the female orgasm – since men can have an orgasm with practically anyone, they don’t much care who they’re with, whereas if a woman finds someone who’s actually good in bed she’s desperate to hang on to him?! Your insights would be much appreciated. -Elaine
Dear Elaine,
Love. This. Question.
I particularly love your list of what sucks about being single. As a guy who was single for 35 years, I completely agree and think that – all things remaining equal – having a good relationship is a far superior state of being than being alone.
(This does not mean that I look down on single people or think you should be in an unsatisfying relationship so, please, spare me the complaints.)
My assistant says it’s because when they’re single, they can play video games and watch porn, and if they got a girlfriend, she’d insist they give up one or both.
But what gets me the most excited, Elaine, is that you’ve forced me to consider something that I’ve never actually considered before:
Why Don’t Men Hate Being Single As Much as Women Do?
My assistant says it’s because when they’re single, they can play video games and watch porn, and if they got a girlfriend, she’d insist they give up one or both.
Funny, but probably not the entire picture.
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425 Comments »Filed Under Dating
amazingg0477 1
Well now this is depressing! I agree that women have outlandishly unrealistic expectations for love and relationships. Blame movies, Disney fairy tales, whatever you want but the fact remains that when your expectations don’t line up with reality, severe disappointment is the result. Men don’t need or want women in the same way women need or want men. So what in the world do we do about this?
nathan 2
I have never been a stereotypical man – not defined by career, not focused mainly on externals when it comes to women, not really able to split sex from love …
And while I wouldn’t say I “hate” being single, I have mostly had a desire to be in a fulfilling relationship from a young age. My expectations have been broken down through the years of dating and being in relationships, but I would say that I’m interested in more than just not being criticized or bored with someone.
Oh, and I’d say men also have tendencies towards wanting the women they are with to change in some way or another. They might not express it as often, or as clearly, but I think the view that “you’re fine just as you are” is pretty rare.
Chris 3
We can separate sex and love, we define ourselves by our work, we don’t lack dating options, we get 95% of our needs met without female companionship, and we don’t talk about relationships nearly as much.
That describes me. One more example of how I (a female) am more masculine when it comes to relationships. My first date last night with a recently divorced 54 year old left me ambivalent. He is done caring about his career, has tons of hobbies and interests he wants a women to adopt, he wants a women to fill up his life. I want a relationship that is a blend of two people. I don’t see that as trying to change someone but men might.
Sam P. 4
I agree with everything Evan said, but I’d like to expand on the finances dimension.
Men make, on average, $10,000 more per year than women do. Men with BAs earn $16,000 more per year than women with BAs. Men have lower expenses on clothing, make up, grooming, and a slew of other things. Thus, most men do not have the same financial incentives to get married than women do.
Fawn 5
@amazingg0477
I know some men who absolutely hate being single. I don’t think that Evan meant all men – just some men in general. My guy loves being coupled up! You just need to keep your heart open to the guys who do. There is still hope…
Sherell 6
Great response Evan!! Women and men are so different and women need to realize that what men want and need is so different then what we do. Once you accept this, it becomes easy. When many of the things that women need are satisfied within the context of other great relationships and we are fulfilled and happy, a relationship with a man is the icing on the cake. It doesn’t preclude you from getting some of these things from a man but it shouldn’t be your only source.
SS 7
I really enjoyed reading this post! I know it can seem depressing, but I actually found it pretty funny the way you wrote it Evan.
The only thing I can say is that I’ve found that most men DO eventually come around… maybe they take longer than women, but at some point, yes, they do tire of the video games, meaningless sex, long nights at work followed by coming home to an empty house, the bar scene, lack of true companionship, etc.
And when their guy friends start getting hitched and they find themselves to be the Last of the Mohicans, being single really starts to suck for them!
That’s why I notice that men can wake up one day after years — no, decades — of being single and decide that they want a real relationship with a real partner. And then they go after it.
As a woman, I just needed to figure out how to find those guys.
Lisa M. 8
Well, I’m an attractive 36 year-old woman who has never been in a committed relationship. On rare occasions that I do reveal this fact about myself, people appear to be stunned. They can’t believe a woman as attractive as me has never been in relationship. I have never really felt that I needed a man/relationship to make me happy or define who I am. I have other things to fill up my life and I know how to satisfy my own sexual needs. I have no problem attracting male attention (Although, I don’t think being really good-looking has a whole lot to with whether a woman can find love because I know plenty of women who are way less attractive than myself who are married and/or in committed relationships).
I have never understood why when I mention that I am unattached I get looks of pity. I have yet to see men get this same reaction when they reveal the same thing. It’s ridiculous. It irritates me the way many women act, as if, they have won the state’s lottery when they become some man’s wife. It is as though they have accomplished something that was so difficult to achieve (like actually winning the state’s lottery).
In my observation over the years, it appears that most of the women I knew are not content in their relationships and it may be, as you mentioned; most women have unreal expectations for their romantic relationships with men. I may have these very same unrealistic expectations, which could be responsible for why I have never taken the plunge. I guess I would rather go it alone than be disappointed.
Steve 9
Their needs are met by their male friendships and their careers and the last thing they want to do is hold your purse when shopping at Nordstrom.
Love that line. LOL!
Sayanta 10
I think we also need to realize that since we are all shaped by society, that’s obviously going to color women’s and men’s focus. Like Lisa above said, unattached women tend to be treated like outcasts more often than men, and that def contributes to the relationship desire.
Ruby 11
There continues to be less societal pressure on men to be married. Women still have the “old maid spinster” labels hanging over them.
Women still make less money than men, so there’s a financial imperative.
Women are more interested in having kids, and have to worry about their biological clocks. Since they tend to make less money and are usually entrusted with the primary care of children, they need someone who can be a good provider.
Women are more affected by aging in the dating market than are men. The average 42 year old man has more dating options than does a 42 year old woman – he can date a 22 year old or a 52 year old. He may not actually want to go that young, but he has the option to do so. A woman dating that much younger is called a cougar, a bit derisively. There’s no comparable label for men.
In general, men prefer women who are slender/fit (not overwieght), pretty, and youthful. I do think that more and more men care about a woman’s education and/or income level than in the past.
Men can date casually and not get attached – much harder for women to do that.
Given all of the above, it’s not surprising that most of the dating books and websites out there are geared towards women. There’s just more pressure on them. On the downside for men, it’s not so great that they don’t form attachments as easily as women, and men still don’t live as long as women do.
Steve 12
@Sam P #4
Women earn their own money now, they don’t necessarily have financial incentives to get married. At least not all of them. There are all of those articles about women who out earn men, how more women and fewer men go to college and how more men are getting laid off.
Diana 13
Well, some people would say it comes down to maturity. The idea goes that women mature quicker than men. I read an article not too long ago that indicated how some younger men are not maturing as quickly as previous generations due to their video game hobby. It’s keeping them in adolescence much longer.
For the record, my former husband never held my purse while I shopped! [LOL] Seriously?!
Steve 14
Women expect their relationships to be transcendent. They expect the man to illuminate and inspire. You remember “Eat, Pray, Love,” right? “You don’t need a man. You need a champion.”
I’ve gotten that feeling a lot. That women are looking for more than a partner. They are looking for a magician, a white night and a fantasy. Talk about performance pressure! I find this attitude to be a real turn off.
I see it as the other side of the coin about the complaints of many women about American men being narcissistic. Narcissism is about more than being self-centered. My non-expert understanding is that it is also about unrealistic expectations…..especially the perfectionistic expectations of a child who hasn’t learned at a gut level that they are not the only person in the world. In other words the “narcissism epidemic” which includes both men and women is about people who never finished growing up emotionally. We (Americans of a certain generation ) are what becomes of the spoiled children.
Sucks if you are single, sucks if you are dating coach trying to diplomatically get people to be realistic.
Ruby 15
Steve #12
Women with associate degrees still earn about $10,000 less than men with no college degree. Another study i read said that it would take 40 years for the number of female corporate officers to match the number of male CEOs in Fortune 500 companies.
Kate Candy 16
Evan!!!! This is extraordinarily insightful and should be read and understood by women everywhere who are suffering from Where-is-my-prince? disease. Although guys might dream of a princess, they get on with their lives. They run, watch football, hang with friends, walk the dog and wait for someone who they think is worth committing to. They are far more patient. And, although there are men who are dying to get married, there are far more brides magazines than groom magazines.
Also, guys are not as crazy about getting laid as conventional wisdom will have us believe. Men love the physical rewards of sex, but sometimes making love to a woman is a lot of work and they’d rather skip it for the alternatives. Sex for many women is about validation, a self-esteem boost, and for men, not so much. Sex for men is not elevated to lofty heights. I know there are some women who talk about how much they like to hit the mattress, but I challenge these women to say that getting drilled by a guy who doesn’t care how many times your head hits the headboard is fun, whereas for the guy, no foreplay boffing? Yeah, it’s fine.
So, this brings me back to other superb EMK posts. Men should say NO to sex until they feel comfortable having intimate conversations with their partner; women should too. Women should stop trying to date guys who are not trying to date them (this is priceless advice). And women should understand that guys were not invented to help you pay your bills or impress your friends. As a friend of mine said, “Men are people, treat them accordingly.” That is, lower the expectations, be kind and polite and remember, they’re probably not looking for a parent.
Michael 17
I think after I turned 55 I finally felt comfortable with my place, its location, my routine, my stability. When I was young, change and risk was exciting. Now, I wonder what all the fuss is about. As Evan said, it is possible to supplement my life with female companionship without giving up what I have.
The other thing is this. I came to the conclusion after thinking long and hard over my failed marriage that it is pointless to try to convince a woman she wants me as I am if she doesn’t. Really, either she does or she doesn’t. If I convince her, as I did constantly in my marriage, then the first (or next) time there are serious problems a woman will look at you and say in some form, “OK, this was really your idea — why should I stay, why are your worth it?” [paraphrase.] It is a losing proposition. So, any time a women wants to know “why?” insistently about the way I am, what I do, what I think — red flags fly. What she is really saying is, “make your case. you should convince me.” And, that is a losing proposition for anyone, man or woman.
Commitment can’t include a hidden provision for changing who you are (re men) or that you will never change (women). Yes, men think the woman they are committing to will not change from the appealing image presented to us. And, that’s because we won’t ordinarily.
Lisa M. 18
”unattached women tend to be treated like outcasts more often than men, and that def contributes to the relationship desire.”
Sayanta #10, this is true. It is, as if, you might as well just lay down and die because what else do you as woman have to live for. And yes, it definitely contributes to why women feel so much pressure to be married and/or in a relationship. I know two other women like myself who just don’t seem to give a crap about being in a relationship and have never been in one (also in their 30′s) and are enjoying their lives just fine.
Aren’t there studies that state that women are happiest when they’re single and men are the least happiest when they’re single. We must keep in mind that men still do the proposing, not us.
Ruby #11, I totally agree. The double standards are quite tiresome. One of my pet peeves is how men are rarely told that standards and expectations for women and relationships are unrealistic, while women are constantly browbeaten about being unrealistic in our expectations.
Lisa M. 19
“Commitment can’t include a hidden provision for changing who you are (re men) or that you will never change (women). ”
Yes, I believe this too. I have never been interested in working on a man like he’s some kind of project. If he is just not what you’re looking for simply move on.
“Yes, men think the woman they are committing to will not change from the appealing image presented to us. And, that’s because we won’t ordinarily.”
If I met the guy I wanted to commit to, I wouldn’t want him to change either based on the appealing image he presented to me but how
realistic is that. He is going to age, probably lose his hair and gain weight, so it would probably be in my best interest for the long haul that he possesses more than just an appealing appearance, right?
Miss Solomon 20
I think this is so true but so sad! Women have such an upper hand in dating. You get treated to dinners, events while men are vying for your attention. If you do it right, dating for a woman is amazing. Who wouldn’t want men sending you texts messages calling you trying to take you out, on trips buying you things and all it costs is a few salon services and efficient trip to Sephora. The dating game is where women can shine. There is no reason not to enjoy it. If you don’t, you’re just not doing it right
maria 21
I LOVE being single!!! I feel so sorry for women, especially those in their 20′s and 30′s who were raised to believe that THEY DON’T EXIST WITHOUT A MAN! It is so, so sad! They rely on “getting” a man for all of their happiness, and if they DO manage to get him to the altar, they are misearble afterwars because he is not Prince Charming treating them like the Cinderellas they believe they are!
If you have a fulfilling job, family, friends, interests, dating life, there is absolutely no reason to believe that a man will make it better. If what you really want is to cater to a man’s every need and massage his ego daily, while he does little for yours, continue to believe the myth!
A man shouldn’t COMPLETE your life, he should ENHANCE it. It has taken me years to realize this, but I CRINGE when I see the things that girls in their 20′s and 30′s put up with, just to say they “have” a man!
It is so so sad! Aim high girls, he should be BETTER than you, not a blood-sucking rehab project! Stop compromising yourselves for men, they will respect and want you more!
amazingg0477 22
@Miss Solomon – while it may be true that women have the upper hand during dating, this advantage disappears when you want to move from dating mode to relationship mode. While I am having an amazing time dating, eventually I’m going to want more. I’m going to want a relationship. That’s where this male/female dynamic that Evan is talking about is going to come into play.
Sherell 23
It all boils down to whats important to each and what defined’s them. Men-career, hobbies- Its what they do. Women- relationships: Its what they feel. There are exceptions to the rule, as there always is but generally it works this way.
Steve 24
@Miss Soloman #20. I am predicting that you will get many impassioned replies to your post from the regulars among the female comment authors.
Michael 25
Another great piece, Evan. As an atypical guy (and not-so-coincidentally, a self-help writer for single men), I found dating not only to be “endless tedium and stress” but to be fun and interesting. Then again, I meditate, have made great choices in women (I look fondly on every past relationship and have exactly zero “crazy exes”) and have a pretty strong sense of self-identity that doesn’t involve career or “stuff.” A strong “me” makes me better both alone and in a relationship.
But the reason I’ve never felt pressure to be in a relationship: I’m comfortable alone without an Internet or cell phone tether, just my own thoughts for company. It truly readjusts me so I can go out and be a better friend and boyfriend. It’s a life skill I think everyone should learn.
Friendships are important, too, both same-sex and opposite-sex. A really good social network helps in so many ways, including opportunities to meet potential mates. For all the women I dated online and through dating events, my current (and longest-term) girlfriend is a friend of a friend.
There are a lot of men who want relationships every bit as much as many women do. They just won’t talk about it as readily as women. Many of the guys picking up women at the club really want to fall madly in love, they just don’t know how to get or sustain a relationship, and the lifestyle messes with how they relate to others.
starthrower68 26
Uh oh. I have met a guy that makes me willing to do everything Evan says and I won’t even go kicking and screaming. That’s scary. And this guy does not make as much money as I do, does not have the level of education I have, and is not what I think of when I think of my “type”. And until this guy came along, I would get the pangs of loneliness, but I learned to reach out to my girlfriends or make the most of my time with my children. I have never felt the financial imperative to get married because my parents trained me to make my own way in the world. But I think this person can certainly trump being single. Go figure.
Ames 27
It’s scary to me that men don’t seem to form attachments as women do.
Maeve 28
Uhhhh…
In my experience, men HATE being single. In all of my relationships the guy was much more eager to lock the whole thing down and get to the boyfriend/girlfriend part than I was. They were quicker to the gun with “I love you” and started talking about marriage and kids way before I was ready to. Recent studies have shown that men say “I love you” faster in most relationships and are more eager to commit at the beginning.
Women also initiate the majority of divorces (about 2/3) in large part because they are MORE OK with being single. When men initiate a divorce, they are much more likely to have someone waiting in the wings, jumping from relationship to relationship. Ex-husbands remarry faster than ex-wives. I know the stereotype is that men are commitmentphobes, but honestly, I’ve never seen it, and the data don’t support it. I’d suggest your letter-writer is just dating the wrong guys.
Ian 29
I think lots of men do hate being single as much as this woman. I know I have friends who are in that position and I was that way when I first got divorced. The problem is that women don’t want those men because they are “needy”, I know I was. By the time I’d gotten my life together enough to attract women and them want me for a serious relationship, I was enjoying being single. Doing what i wanted, when I wanted without having to feel guilty about my desire to be alone. I think the difference is that men if they don’t have someone to do something with are more willing to go alone, including traveling.
starthrower68 30
@ Maeve #28,
I think that while it’s not true of all men or all women, you are correct in the majority of cases. If this blog is any indication, women want the time to explore what went wrong and how not to go there again before the next relationship. I also think that in a lot of cases, women were the heavy lifters in the relationship and simply need a break from it to re-charge. Whereas men think getting into the next relationship means all their problems are solved. Again, I’m not saying this is true of all men or women, but I’ve seen it a lot.
InsertPseudonymHere 31
Maybe men more often are happy or satisfied with their lives, partner or not, than women. Keep in mind, Evan’s clients, and probably many of the folks on this blog, are people who are not entirely happy with their love life. The people who are satisfied with their lives, male or female won’t post here! Maybe Evan tends to see the folks who go to Evan have been putting too much pressure on their relationships to make them happy, and that is why their relationships fail.
Lisa M. #8 touches on this. She is a fulfilled happy person without a relationship (though why she is irritated at other women when they feel getting married fulfills them is worth examining.)
@Michael 25 My brother you have got it. Hear, hear! Ian figured it out too. Being content with himself made him ready for a serious relationship. This applies to both genders.
mslove 32
This is a excellent read & I found it humorous.
i don’t think people should get defensive about Evan stating men wanting to be single. The topic asked ” why don’t men MIND being single”
Us women, NO MATTER WHAT ANY WOMAN SAYS, obsess about being single sometimes. We get desperate, needy and lonely-then question ourselves.
What I have found to work with me is, think like a man and act like a lady. Bottom line.
Men are different from women. All you can do is learn how to love yourself, enjoy your life and whatever man comes along that you decide to accept-no matter HOW long that friendship or relationship lasts.
We ALL want forever. Sometimes we have to appreciate who is in front of us and learn from the lesson they are trying to teach us.
m 33
Because women are punished for being single in our culture far more harshly than men are.
“Over twice as many women take anti-depressants, compared to men”
I think in part this is because men are stigmatized in our culture for depression.
I also believe that women are expected to be more patient with worse situations for longer periods of time, and without any complaint (even when something is legitimately wrong, as when people shrug about “unfair” situations and say “it is what it is” instead of calling it out and/or doing something about it).
As a result, women are somatized by anti-depressant medication, so as to be desensitized to the things that are legitimately wrong so they don’t matter to them so much … so no one who has a vested interest in the status quo has to listen to them complain and actually consider fixing what’s wrong.
Witty article.
hunter 34
Women mature sooner than men????….I don’t like saying this,, I think, women mature……..and that is all…
Angie 35
@Maeve 28
… But I think men aren’t as good at determining whether or not a girl is into him b/c a lot of guys assume “Duh, you’re female, you must be into me b/c I’m a guy”.
I agree in a certain sense. I think when men finally are ready to “be serious” they act this way. They decide they like you, and are SHOCKED – SHOCKED SHOCKED SHOCKED when you are like “Well, no”.
I had a female friend breakup with a guy she dated in grad school, then they casually dated for the remainder of their last year, and he proposed. She said NO and “We never talked about marriage” and his response was “I thought this is what every girl wanted”. (AFTER she downgraded the relationship).
I had a guy say to me while I was living abroad “This isn’t serious, b/c you are leaving in a few months”. I said “Yes, I know”. When it was time for me to leave, he said “I love you, please stay.” I said “Umm, I never bothered developing feelings for you, bye”. (This is not the first time this happened. I had a boyfriend when I was around 24 tell my parents he planned to propose after I told him “I can’t see myself ever marrying you, or getting married at all. Maybe when I’m 30″… which I was correct b/c in the last year or so I really can envision that type of commitment. He was shocked that after he pouted all the time about me traveling a lot for work and suggesting I quit so we could “settle down”… again, at 24, that I ended it with “But I put up with it for so long!”).
Ok, that’s my rant.
But I do agree with Evan. Being in a new city makes me wish I had a boyfriend more than when I was in my old city, primarily due to the fact I only have two good female friends, and a few other casual friends here. I just wish I had a full social calendar, and it wouldn’t hurt if I loved that person.
Venus 36
Men who have been in a long term relationship or married, really hate being single. Although they may rely on their jobs, and achievements for validation they still require the nurturing and support that they don’t or can’t get from their job or friends. Women, as the article states, are more comfortable reaching out to other women friends and family for that type of nurturing and support, they tend to have a stronger network of friends and activities and are better able to survive the emotional assault of being alone.
I also believe that being in a meaningful relationship gives a guy a sense of purpose and provides him with a certain amount of grounding. Just because they are slower to commit does not mean that they prefer to be single. They are wired to hold out for the best possible option. We as women are just looking for a good fit.
It is usually the immature guys and the consummate bachelors that are content in their singlehood and player’s status.
Anisa 37
I love # 21!!
We (women) have to get rid of all the “labels” others are putting on us. Especially the ones we are putting on each other.
Celebrating our femininity will make us completely happy with ourself and with the life we create for ourselves. Celebrating our femininity will make us NOT being needy for male companionship.
JB 38
I guess it’s a little confusing as to what “Single” actually is defined as in the context of this discussion. Single by definition = unmarried.So if you are in a serious committed relationship of 6 yrs. you are still “single” even though theoretically you’re happy,content,and “unavailable”
Nevertheless as a man who’s never been married nor wanted to be I hate not being in a healthy relationship but I DON’T hate being “unmarried”. Dating and trying to find a relationship at 50 is about 10% of what it was at 38 meaning I used to meet women all the time in “target rich” fun environments in my area without all the online dating bulls**t.It was a great time and every week I loved being “single” except during the times I was in a relationship that I was happy with. These days that whole scene is gone and I’m left with online dating and “Meet Up” groups.
So to answer the question…. I may hate not being in a relationship but being single “unmarried”(theoretically divorced) doesn’t bother me at all.
Diana 39
Interesting posts and article. The question of whether men hate being single depends on the man and especially, where he is in life, and how emotionally healthy he is. For example, how many men will go from one relationship to another because they don’t want to deal with their issues or they can’t stand being without female companionship? Many men feel a need to be nurtured, to be taken care of. I suspect the writer’s just not meeting quality men.
Evan’s words of … “Even if men feel the emotional need to connect, they rarely reach out to do so – with each other, with their families, and with you” couldn’t be any truer, and sometimes this can work against them. As for the use of antidepressants, maybe a little bit of this has to do with how men may not realize as fully as women they might have a problem. Men are also less likely to reach out for medical help period. They don’t want to be seen or see themselves as weak or vulnerable. Again, this can be detrimental.
And Evan is right, too, in that many women expect their men to be able to illuminate and inspire. But I think a large part of this way of thinking is due to all of the messages society teaches them starting very early on. It’s the “prince and princess” folly. Not only the messages about how to think and feel about men, love, marriage, etc., but how they’re somehow worth less without a man. Society puts tremendous pressure on women to conform, even with some of today’s more enlightened views. Society talks out of both sides of its mouth.
As for the expectation that women have for men to change, the other side of the coin is that men expect women to never change, and that’s just as unfair and unrealistic. Everyone changes, in one way or another.
It takes strong women to raise strong, healthy daughters who don’t feel they have to conform to the standard ideas about themselves, men, etc. Find your own way, your own voice. Be your own person first and foremost. Live a full and contented life. Have the ability to provide for yourself, and not be dependent on someone else financially or emotionally. Then if you happen to meet someone who compliments and adds more meaning to your life, great. But don’t go about it the other way around because you will not feel truly fulfilled, if you do.
Jadafisk 40
“The average 42 year old man has more dating options than does a 42 year old woman – he can date a 22 year old or a 52 year old.”
Not really. If he can do it, he’s less likely to face social stigma, but AVERAGE 42 year old men don’t have 22 year old options. Now, theoretical 22 year old options – the same kind that exist for most older women – can get in the way of an average 42 year old man settling down, but that’s different.
33 “I think in part this is because men are stigmatized in our culture for depression.”
They are. Men are way more likely to abuse illicit substances and alcohol for this reason, and they take the lead when it comes to suicides.
Ellen 41
Ruby #11, I totally agree. The double standards are quite tiresome. One of my pet peeves is how men are rarely told that standards and expectations for women and relationships are unrealistic, while women are constantly browbeaten about being unrealistic in our expectations.
I totally agree. While I adore Evan Mark Katz, I notice all his advice is mostly about how the woman must endlessly compromise to attract a man, and not vice versa. There seems to be NO middle ground where we can meet in the middle. So it just continues to be a man’s world.
That said, I agree with what Evan says, but think it describes mostly the young male, not the older one. Older men are more ready to jump into both relationships and marriage than woman in my experience. Older men NEED woman more, esp. after the age of 50 as they start sensing their mortality.
My problem is I am more attracted to younger men now for a whole host of reasons including they just seem less neurotic and more open emotionally. As they are still young or youngish (40s) they are still into their careers a lot and are not dying to date/couple up quite as much. So I find myself reading Evan’s emails now keenly.
I also agree with the poster above who says women dominate during the dating process, but are at a distinct disadvantage once it takes a more serious turn. Then how you react, what you say takes on this momental importance so you don’t “scare them away”. It’s exhausting. Being very attractive, great bod and all that I get plenty of dates, but struggle during the second stage as I’m about as open as you get, as emotionally balanced and unafraid as you get. Problem is I just can’t find that man who is also fearless and just see where fate takes you. It’s just endless games on their part I’m finding.
I’m exhausted. I feel hopeless. I don’t date stop as I live in a small town and the pickings here are small so I soldier on. But BOY I stopped enjoying it a long, long time ago.
MH 42
I think there are men who want a relationship, but they can be particular about who they want to date.
Ellen 43
P.S. the other thing that exhausts me is nearly every guy I’ve dated in the past two years has had to control the relationship, almost from the git go. My schedule, what I want, even what I want to do (I want to go to a fu*king batting cage so I can hit the sh&t out of a ball for about an hr.- is that too much to ask?!
) means nothing to them unless they are hopelessly smitten with me. Then they are attentive- til the one month mark which Evan writes about. Men come down to earth after about a month and you stop being the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Then in my experience men become emotional hypocrites*: They can woo you endlessly, tell you they are falling for you, make overtures towards commitment even maybe, but GOD HELP YOU if you say anything similar. Then they seem to get cold feet. Lots of guys have fallen for me initially, only to back away after the one month mark or thereabouts.
*many men are also sexual hypocrites but that’s another long post….
I feel so sorry for myself lately. I know I am attracting the wrong sorts of guys but Jeez they write on their profile they want a relationship so as to just get sex I think so how am I to know til I’ve dated them a while what their true intent is!
Lately I just tell them upfront- “been online dating for two years, exhausted, want a relationship*, if you don’t, nice knowing you pal” or words to that effect.
*after two years realize that while very independent I like being in a relationship so I have a man to confide in, spend time with. It just suits me. Ellen, 58, in Dixie
Evan Marc Katz 44
@Ellen “I notice all his advice is mostly about how the woman must endlessly compromise to attract a man, and not vice versa. There seems to be NO middle ground where we can meet in the middle. So it just continues to be a man’s world.”
I let this comment through, even though it’s patently false and completely misrepresents my philosophy.
A) There is a middle ground that you’ve assiduously ignored: the scores of posts where I tell women to LEAVE men who don’t give them what they need. Because those are really your only choices, right? Compromising/accepting him as he is…or leaving? Oh, wait, you could try for the third option – bugging the shit out of him about how much he needs to change. Let me know how effective that strategy works for you.
B) The reason you hear me telling women to change and compromise is because women are the ones asking me questions. If men asked me the same questions, they’d get the same frustrating reality-based answers about how you can’t change women.
still looking 45
To me, the equation is simple – do the pros/cons of remaining single outweigh the pros/cons of being in a relationship?
When I meet that special woman all of the benefits of being single will be outweighed by the longing and desire to be with her, and only her. That emotional pull will overwhelm any and all practical considerations of why being single is great.
While I’m still looking for that someone special, almost all of my needs are being met:
- I am emotionally intimate with several close female friends;
- I have a seemingly endless supply of women who are willing to date me;
- Sex, while not a prime motivator, is readily available
- I have the opportunity to meet/date/talk with a wide variety of women with diverse backgrounds;
- I enjoy spending time alone or with my kids and being single makes this so much easier;
- Freedom (yelled out as though I was Mel Gibson) – I can do what I want, when I want, with who I want.
The only downside to the “single life” is on occasion my ego/heart is bruised when the chemistry is one-sided. Other than that, life is good! One day Ms. Right will walk into my life and all of this will change, until then I’m completely happy with the status quo.
Ellen 46
Evan, thanks for reading my post. Fair enough. I was just being wistful! I do love how you get to the heart of things and quickly. How brutally honest you can be- for both men and women.
Didn’t mean to offend. As a matter of fact I have turned on a male platonic friend (also dating up a storm) to your website recently. We talk about your philosophy also…….
Re choices, low self esteem is NOT one of my faults though I have, here and there, stayed too long in relationships these past two years. Settled…..But I have ended 95% of my relationships. Only two guys in two years have ended the relationship- one looking for a sugar momma and one recently ’cause he’s newly divorced and respected me too much to lead me on (he wants to play for now and who can blame him after 27 years of marriage?). Maybe I will contact you about how possibly to lure him back in 6-1 yr. as we had chemistry though politically we are different (but we never talked politic- don’t think he cared).
I have been sad about him today, though yesterday it was “Bill who?!” (names changed to protect the innocent)!
Ruby 47
still looking #45
How old are you?
Interesting to read Ellen’s posts and still looking’s post side-by-side. Kind of exemplifies just what women are complaining about: that male sense of entitlement and smugness.
Sayanta 48
Ruby-
Lol- I had the same reaxn reading still looking’s post. ‘endless supply of women’ for an older dude with kids? Uh- maybe if you’re Springsteen, but he’s not posting on this site.
Honey 49
I doubt that more men are okay with being single – I just think single women talk more about hating being single than single guys do. I also think that the idea that “a relationship” provides the benefits listed by the LW might not quite be how guys think about it. I think they tend to associate those benefits with the specific person they are in a relationship with, not the fact that they’re in a relationship – so they date more or less casually until they find those things in a person and then are like, WHOA. And if things end with that person, they’re not like, “I should find another relationship so I can have x,y,z benefits,” they’re like, “I miss Sally” (or whoever).
That said, when I was dating most guys seemed a lot more desperate for the relationship status than I was…at least in their conversations with ME. Who knows what they were saying to their friends/family? I bet they played it quite a bit cooler to that crowd, for a variety of reasons.
mslove 50
I oh so love Evans direct straight to the point replies! lol!
Evan Marc Katz 51
@Ruby and @Sayanta: Interesting that you think that Still Looking’s post was smug.
Objectively, if you compare his post side-by-side with Ellen, he comes off as confident and self-aware as opposed to bitter and irrational. (Sorry, Ellen!)
I’m gonna go out on a limb and suggest that this illustrates your deep animus and distrust of men. Still Looking comes on here for the first time, posts something positive and optimistic, and you call him “entitled”? Really?
People with his attitude are the ones who find love. People who can find something negative in a completely benign sentence are bound to struggle with a Still Looking, Karl, myself, or any other secure (read: smug and entitled) man.
Seriously, isn’t it tiring looking at the glass half empty all the time?
InsertPseudonymHere 52
@Still Looking
I notice a complete dearth of any mention of male friendships filling your life. Coupled with your certainty that “the emotional pull will overwhelm any and all practical considerations” suggests to me that you may find yourself needing/demanding more from that relationship than it can realistically provide. I hope it works out for you, but I encourage you to learn to find emotional intimacy with some male friends (I know it sounds unusual in the west, but this is possible!) This will make your future relationship stronger.
@ruby 47 @sayntana 48
Smug? Yeah. A bit tactless about how he discusses sex? And maybe a casual attitude about it that does not work for some people (myself included) Sure.
Entitlement? He said he is happy with how things are for him now. I don’t see “entitlement” in that.
Margo 53
Aside from love and companionship, a man’s incentive to be in a relationship is to get regular condom-free sex from a woman who isn’t of ill repute. For instance, if the man isn’t committing and he’s sleeping around, the women he’s screwing are probably sleeping around too, since there is no committment. That is the reality of it.
Men commit to get sex. For example, a man I went on group date with recently came out and told me he knew I liked him, told me he liked me, then proceeded to tell him he “likes living alone”. Then I questioned him with, “are you saying you don’t want a girlfriend?” His answer: “No”. Then, “are you saying you want me to back off?” (although I never have initiated anything or called) His answer “No”. His final response was he wants to be friends, take it slow and fall in love.
Now, my point in this example is there is nothing wrong with liking to live alone, and I don’t even know why he brought that up as I never mentioned wanting to move in with him, maybe other women did, don’t know. However, if a man likes to live alone and his gf wants a relationship that turns into something serious, well, he won’t have that gf for long.
Why do some men think they can have it both ways? How many men does that actually work for? You can’t have your cake and eat it too. No gf (and that entails being open to sharing your space with her) no reliable, worry-free sex. Period.
Gem 54
I don’t read anything smug or entitled in Still Looking’s post. He seems to be a realist of his own life and experience. As we all should be. It’s rather logical for him to say as a single dad, that when he meets the woman who shows him that a relationship will enhance his life, not complicate it, only then will be be ready.
Let’s face it. Dating as a single parent can be very complicated and forging a relationship and attempting to blend children with the new man/woman even moreso. As a single mother myself, I’m with Still Looking….unless and until the right man comes along that fits my situation, I’m staying single. And enjoying the seemingly endless supply of men who are willing to date me
Evan Marc Katz 55
I should probably stop reading my blog and eat dinner, but I just can’t pull myself away: “Men commit to get sex?” Really, Margo? I’m usually not one to deal in absolutes, but you are absolutely incorrect. In fact, the greatest problem that men have when they commit is that they’re stuck having sex with the same person forever!
So instead of writing a massive dissertation on why men commit in this comments section, how about you read 133 pages of Why He Disappeared to discover what men REALLY think.
I can assure you that we commit to women for emotional reasons – love, nurturing, patience, esteem, fun, laughter, support, friendship, companionship. But for sex? Nah. That’s why we invented booty calls and once-a-week friends with benefits. We don’t need to commit to get sex. We need to commit to get love and family.
Margo 56
I do read smugness in Still looking’s post, not so much entitlement though. He is just doing what is human nature: He’s taking the sex that these women are so readily offering him. Having said that, what do you call these type of women who are allowing him to use them as a sperm receptacle while he gets his rocks off, and not receiving a committment from him in return?
They are idiots.
Margo 57
Um, Evan, don’t you have a post on this website titled, “Men look for sex and find love, Women look for love and find sex.”??
Venus 58
@Evan 51
Hmmm…. I don’t know Evan. Still Looking sounds like the kind of guy we see online that you warn us not to write to. Endless supply of women willing to date him, ready availability of sex, loves his freedom. Sounds like a heart break waiting to happen for any woman who becomes attached. I hope he is as candid about enjoying his single life with the women he chose to allow into his life.
Evan Marc Katz 59
“Men look for sex and find love…” means just that.
First, we’re seeking attraction. In the process of pursuing attraction, we decide if we enjoy spending time with you. The enjoyment in spending time with you is what gets men to commit, not the sex. Sex is cheap, short-lived and fleeting. Love and commitment based on sex alone will be the same. I can’t think of a single man I know who committed to someone for sex. The only person who’d do so is someone who couldn’t get laid to save his life and just wants to lock it in. Not anyone you’d ever be interested in.
Ruby 60
Venus #58
Yes, that’s exactly what I meant.
Isn’t it interesting that men so often see being single as having freedom and unlimited options, and a veritable sexual smorgasbord, whereas women feel unloved and unwanted when they are unattached? This is what I was referring to in an earlier post when I commented on the “old maid spinster” labeling. A single man, on the other hand, is seen as a “swinging bachelor” with a “seemingly endless supply of women” just chomping at the bit to be with him.
Angie 61
@Margo
“Aside from love and companionship, a man’s incentive to be in a relationship is to get regular condom-free sex from a woman who isn’t of ill repute”… I think that can be applied to a lot of women as well, anyone who isn’t actively ready or willing to get married.
“While women look for love and find sex / Men look for sex and find love”… I think in many cases “Women often just want companionship for the present and don’t want to think about anything other than this guy is only sleeping with me” and men get huge puppy dog crushes and infatuations ALL the time, fall in love after they’ve told you not to fall in love with them, etc.
I don’t really think men and women are all that different. I just think (a) men are used to being the pursuers. They’ve been pursuing since they were 12 and if they don’t like being single, they’ll just ask people out until something clicks instead of sitting there being upset and (b) women are more vocal about relationship (or lack thereof) complaints.
Jadafisk 62
“Having said that, what do you call these type of women who are allowing him to use them as a sperm receptacle while he gets his rocks off, and not receiving a committment from him in return?”
Women who just want sex? Women who are coming off of a divorce or long relationship, have young children that they’re protective of and primarily dedicated to, or children who have recently left the house giving them time to enjoy having no one to answer to, take care of or share a residence with for a while, women who are in town or even the country temporarily… some girls just want to have fun. Every woman isn’t 100% commitment-minded from the time they turn 18 or even 30 until the time that they either get that ring or die. Even the ones who are have times when they get restless during self-imposed periods of celibacy between relationships.
“The only person who’d do so is someone who couldn’t get laid to save his life and just wants to lock it in. Not anyone you’d ever be interested in.”
Different strokes for different folks.
“However, if a man likes to live alone and his gf wants a relationship that turns into something serious, well, he won’t have that gf for long.”
Really? People *have* to live together to prove they’re serious now? Isn’t that also a form of having your cake and eating it too, as well?
Margo 63
@Judafisk #62, I was referring to living together as in after the wedding.
still looking 64
Wow – I responded candidly to Evan’s invitation to chime in as to why I, as a man, am okay with not being in a relationship and obviously offended some of the readers.
First, I did not intend to offend anyone. I guess I could have sugar-coated my response and lied about the availability of women to date, the availability of women for intimate conversations, my level of happiness, etc. but I don’t think that would have been beneficial.
Let me try to provide some answers here that will hopefully help the readers of this blog to understand my perspective.
@ Ruby 47 and @ Sayanta 48 – I’m 49 years old. I did not list my income, profession, level of attractiveness, physique, or any other personal characteristics because that is irrelevant. What is relevant is that I have fulfilling relationships with women, I don’t have any difficulty finding women that would like to have sex with me, and I have never had a difficult time finding women to date. I do find it strange that you infer that I have a sense of entitlement and am smug. Did you ever consider how many dates a week you could have if you initiated contact, asked someone out, and paid for the dates? You don’t have to be The Boss, even with kids at home, to have plenty of dates. Also, do you recall Evan’s blog about what guys are looking for? Attractive & fun. Throw in a broad age group of 35-55 and yes, the supply of attractive, fun 35-55 year old women does in fact seem rather limitless. Not smug – just the facts.
@ InsertPseudonymHere 52 – Thanks for the encouragement and words of wisdom. I do have a limited number of men that I’m fairly close to but most men my age are either married and focused on their families or are focused on the dating life. For emotional intimacy I really prefer my platonic girl friends. You also stated that my comment on the availability of sex was smug and my view toward sex was more casual than yours. I’m curious why you thought my comments were smug. I merely stated sex, while not a prime motivator (for remaining single and being content with being single), was readily available. Should I pretend that I can’t have sex and therefore I’m miserable being single? Is there a woman on this blog who can honestly state that sex is not readily available? BTW – just because I state “readily available” doesn’t mean I avail myself to every opportunity. Sorry if that sounds smug
I have conditions/requirements before I have sex but that doesn’t change the fact that sex is readily available if I so choose.
@ Gem 54 – you’re such a gem!!
@ Margo 56 – How in the world do you translate “Sex, while not a prime motivator, is readily available” to “I find women, take sex from them, get my rocks off, use them as a sperm receptacle, and offer no commitment” ????? Read what I wrote one more time and see if somehow you can possibly glean that while the opportunity for sex is present, sex is not a primary motivating factor for me. Also, please consider the fact that while having sex outside of a committed/exclusive relationship is not condoned by everyone, not every man who engages in sex prior to a committed/exclusive relationship is treating the woman as a sperm receptacle nor is the woman a slut. There are plenty of wonderful people having sex everyday who are not seeking a commitment.
@ Venus 58 – Venus I am extremely open and honest with every woman I date. Probably too open at times. The majority of women reciprocate. Some tell me they are enjoying the dating life and are in no hurry (i.e. not desperate) to find Mr. Right and others tell me they don’t want to waste time going out with someone who isn’t seriously looking for a committed relationship (which reminds me of a used car salesman I met years ago — don’t waste my time if you aren’t ready to sign a check today!).
I’ve had a number of in-depth conversations with women about relationships, marriage, being single, the trials/tribulations of dating, etc. One fairly consistent observation I’ve made is the longer the time period a woman has been single, the more content she is with remaining single for the foreseeable future (most want to re-marry again eventually but are quite happy with their independence for now). The newly separated/divorced women seem to be much more anxious to find a long term relationship. Anyone care to comment on this observation or to contrast it with their observation of men?
Elle 65
Evan, great sound advice and article, as always. Very interesting comments. From someone who at one time wanted to marry and settle down, that was in many long term relationships and also single for a while, I finally see the light! It’s about timing, compatibility, compromise and being authentic to yourself and to your partner. No dreams or fantasies or false pretenses, just honesty, laughter, slow healthy growth, chemistry, communication and a willingness to make some effort on both sides can equal all the answers to confusion on dating. Men are usually very clear on what they want, while woman are wrapped up in a fantasy. I agree with most of the comments made on this subject. Now that I have found an amazing relationship with all I ever wanted from a man, I can say to women, be patient, and be fun. It shouldn’t be hard work, enjoy the journey and take the pressure off. Men like “easy, comfortable, enjoyable AND stimulating”. All in all be yourself and the right partner will show up, sometimes in a different way you imagined. It’s worth the wait! To get something you have never had before, you have to do something you have never done before.
kenley 66
If I were content with casual sex, I wouldn’t seek a relationship either. Similar to another poster, I don’t want a husband or a live in boyfriend. I just want a companion, friend, and lover. Finding a man who wants to be all three has been extremely hard. As a woman, the fact that I can have an abundant supply of sex if I chose to doesn’t make me feel good. Instead it makes me feel profoundly sad that for so many men that’s all the value I have, and that value only lasts until the sex is over. If I could learn to regard sex the way many men do, I’d be a much happier woman.
Annie 67
@47 Ruby.
His post wasn’t a result of entitlment. In fact, that was a post by a male that is actually rather respectable and probably a bit of a catch to be honest.
He was just being truthful. I come across men, who believe they are entitled. Like the man who says, he has the “right” to lie to a woman to get sex. This is the man who “thinks” he’s entitled to sex, therefore if a woman doesn’t give it, he will get it through any means and it is HER fault, that HE lies.
That is an entitled male.
Still looking, sounds like a good man.
Speed 68
“Still looking’s” post could be simply an honest post of how he lives. He neither denigrated anyone else’s lifestyle nor demanded anyone follow his.
When a woman states she “has plenty of options, career success, travels, lives financially and emotionally independently and freely, doesn’t need a (straight) man–except for occasional casual sex, focuses on friends and family, charity, spiritualism, pets, yoga,” etc. she’s often hailed as a heroine or icon. The modern media is filled with such figures.
So then what’s wrong with “still looking”’s similarly free lifestyle?
I rather think “still looking’s” lifestyle is natural, optimal and even an inspiration. More power to him and to any of us men who can strive to reach that level.
InsertPseudonymHere 69
@Still Looking 64
I was not specific enough. You sounded smug. Doesn’t mean you are. As for the “Readily available? part, again you never said you were hopping into bed with someone different every week, but that could be read into how you wrote. A lot of nuance is lost when something is written. Apologies for misinterpreting.
Diana 70
Oh my gosh ~ this string has really become interesting.
To still looking #45, I thought your post was just being honest. I can see why some posters responded as they did though, and your second posting helps to clarify. Middle-aged single men do seem to have better options than middle-aged single women. The one issue that kind of sprang to my attention was your enthusiastic “freedom” endorsement. I wondered whether your former marriage felt stifling or oppressive, perhaps non-supportive, and whether you have full custody of your children, their ages, etc. As a single parent myself, my life stays pretty full taking care of my children full-time.
In response to your second posting, in theory, sex is readily available to me. However, I have boundaries and expectations that you and others may not have. Primarily, I have to know and feel that the man is genuinely interested in me and my life before I will cross that bridge, no matter how great my desire for sex may be. The good news is that this cuts through a tremendous amount of sludge (the pond feeders), but it’s challenging to find a really good, emotionally healthy man who’s a good fit for me and who feels that I’m a good fit for him. This doesn’t mean that I am hoping for anything long-term, depending on what your definition of long-term is, or a life-time commitment. My approach is to casually date and see where life takes it. I love being single, too, and I think it’s important to respect a man’s individuality and his life, and I expect the same.
Gem 71
Still Looking #64
“One fairly consistent observation I’ve made is the longer the time period a woman has been single, the more content she is with remaining single for the foreseeable future (most want to re-marry again eventually but are quite happy with their independence for now).
The newly separated/divorced women seem to be much more anxious to find a long term relationship.”
I can only speak for myself and some girlfriends who’ve gone through divorce following long (10+ yrs) marriages. Yes, initially the desire to find a long term relationship can be associated with “anxiousness.” After being in the security of marriage, being a partner in all things, sharing day-to-day activities year after year — being alone feels very scary.
Many women (can’t speak for men) want to find that bond with someone again soon. Let’s face it, we got married all those years ago because we wanted to be married. Being thrust into singleness again is daunting. I was part of a team for so long I didn’t know how to be the only player!
This probably explains re-bound behavior including the need to feel desireable, wanted, and worthy.
And yes, the longer a woman is single the more comfortable she becomes because she learns that being alone, independent, and free isn’t so scary afterall and there is no need to rush into anything.
Enjoying one’s singleness, and being choosy can ensure you make the right choice of partner for the next relationship.
Lara 72
While some of the women have made interesting points here, I didn’t see anything wrong with Still Looking’s comment. I felt the same way when I was single. I think it was Hitch who said in the movie out of exasperation, “See?! This is why finding love is so damn difficult!” As I mentioned in another post, I enjoy hearing mens’ perspectives because it’s a learning experience. We need to take a step back and LISTEN (or read in this forum) to learn instead of reacting. I can’t say that I agree with each and every comment, but it does provide some insight.
I think the first step in looking to find a relationship is to love yourself (some may say that’s smug), love men for who they are, and look for the person who you can dig for who they are and vice versa. No one is perfect. If they disrespect you, leave. By the way, I’ve had to read countless self-help/relationship books and go on a 1000 dates to learn this.
BeenThereDoneThat 73
I really liked Still Lookings (#45) post. I haven’t read past it yet but I think that sums things up for me; a single mom. I have my kids which are a HUGE priority, I have work and school, I have friends, activities, hobbies. And while I date and sex is readily available (not that I partake), I don’t feel the need to rush a relationship. I’d rather let it evolve on it’s own.
Happy 74
Diana #70, the second paragraph of your post describes me as well.
I’m going for strong character, decency, responsible, relatively mature, meaning there is room for them to play video games and act like kids.
A stimulating relationship where both of us are interested in bringing out the best in each other, being happy and enjoying life.
I must admit, I get a little overwhelmed on most of the advice sites, because there seems to be too much emphasis on categorizing attributes of men and women into structured sociological frameworks. Trying to nail down cause-effect relationships within male-female dynamics. I find that frustrating and limiting!
for the most part, I do like Evan’s advice.
Goldie 75
I saw nothing entitled, smug or otherwise wrong with still looking’s post #45. A man is content with what he has, and positive about his life, yet open to change if needed – isn’t this supposed to be a good thing?
But then I do realize that not women are the same and most of my female friends are professionals, in the technical field, which isn’t representative of all women.
To #64′s last paragraph, too true. My single female friends warned me against staying single for too long, they said it’d grow on me and eventually I’d get to the point where I wouldn’t want to change my single status, because it feels so good. I’ve got to say there’s definitely a good deal of truth to their words
Sherel 76
I am a woman and my dating life is exactly as his except I do not have the ego bruise of a onesided attraction.
I am emotionally intimate with several close male friends;
- I have a long list of men who are willing to date me;
- Sex, while not a prime motivator, is readily available
- I have the opportunity to meet/date/talk with a wide variety of men with diverse backgrounds;
- I enjoy spending time alone or with my kids and being single makes this so much easier;
- Freedom – I can do what I want, when I want, with who I want.
Ruby 77
Still Lookiing #64
Thanks for the clarification. I asked your age because I do think that dating is easier for middle-aged men than it is for women, for the many reasons already stated. Most women your age don’t have your confident point of view about their dating lives, hence blogs like these. Do I think it would be great if we did have more confidence? Absolutely!
nathan 78
Margo’s reductionist comments about men are one of the challenges I find myself facing all the time. Sometimes, when I’m on dates, I wonder if any attempt to demonstrate attraction is going to be interpreted as “dude just wants sex.” I tend to be much slower to move into flirtatiousness, touching, etc., and perhaps that ends up getting taken as a lack of interest. No doubt I’m over-thinking at least some of the time, but it’s amazing how many women make comments like Margo’s about the motivations and desires of men as a “whole.”
To move on to another topic, I find that the definition of freedom being presented here is limited. As a single person, I have a certain kind of freedom – not having to check in with someone, doing what I want, and the rest. However, when part of a couple, it’s not about losing freedom – I see it more as a shifting definition of freedom. It’s a shared freedom between you and a your partner. You move from an individualized freedom, to a coupled freedom. For example, you can work together to do things that before, you alone were responsible for. So, it seems to me that one of the problems that occurs for some single folks is that they attach to one kind of freedom, failing to see that it’s only one form.
So, it seems to me that there’s a middle ground where you can feel happy and fulfilled as a single person, but also with enough internal flexibility to let that go if the right person arrives in your life.
Derek 79
The most important reason is what Evan has mentioned: women tend to enjoy only the top 10% (in terms of looks, social status, and charisma) of men. Therefore, the attractive men are granted an extreme selection of women that less attractive men can only dream of.
Why would attractive men get into relationships when they’re offered so many women? Women wouldn’t settle if today they can get Brad Pitt and tomorrow they can get Johnny Depp.
If women are interested in real relationships then they should go after the less attractive men with less options who are more willing to be in relationships.
I find it funny that women are most interested in men with other options when the other options will prevent him from seeking a relationship with her.
m 80
“@Ruby and @Sayanta: Interesting that you think that Still Looking’s post was smug.”
I do too.
“Objectively, if you compare his post side-by-side with Ellen, he comes off as confident and self-aware as opposed to bitter and irrational.”
??
“comes off as” is not an objective standard. It’s completely subjective, because it’s based on perception.
I also think this whole exchange gets to the heart of the differences being discussed here.
I also think it’s important — and not an accident — that more than one woman has brought up the refrain women get hammered and hammered and hammered with of “It’s a man’s world, and the only thing you women can do is change what you’re doing, and accommodate them the way they are, because they’re never going to change”.
Now, I mean, if the Allied Powers had been told “Well, it’s an Axis world, and there’s nothing that can be done to change that, no matter how dysfunctional to the point of evil their behavior is, and the only thing that can be done is to adapt to it …”
still looking 81
@ Ruby 77 – When I started dating I was too particular with my criteria and dating was more akin to a job search – finding the right one. I was spending hours and hours on the phone and computer getting to know my date and then we’d meet and ….. the chemistry wasn’t there for me, or her, or both of us. It soon turned into a tedious chore at times.
My confidence and my enjoyment of the “single life” took a tremendous upswing when I simply changed my outlook. Instead of looking for “the one” I began to look upon dating as a chance to meet new people, enjoy new activities, and have some adventures. When I began looking for friends as opposed to looking for a lover/girlfriend/partner, I suddenly had more opportunities to date than I ever thought possible and I’ve made some fantastic friends and memories. Yes, on occasion my ego gets bruised if I really like someone and the feeling isn’t mutual but when I have a date a few days later with someone else she is soon forgotten.
Evan has some great advice on how to find Mr. Right but if you need a confidence boost there’s nothing that beats just going out and having fun as friends! You will need to be a bit more aggressive about initiating the contacts/dates but if you focus on finding friends and having fun you will get the confidence and at some later point focus on finding Mr. Right. Who knows, you might even stumble across him while out on a casual friends date. I can’t speak for all guys but I do know I’m more attracted to a woman who wants to start off as friends rather than those whose profiles talk about finding a soul-mate and partner for life.
Best of luck to you.
Evan – sorry for giving any advice that conflicts with your words of wisdom. BTW your blog is great and I’ve recommended your site to quite a few women. Just hope they don’t put two and two together and realize who Still Looking is
Sherel 82
@ M If your perception of yourself is high: with confidence, and with lots of options and content as opposed to a victim, who do you think will better draw the opposite sex????
JB 83
@Still Looking ……….Good for you being my age and still having tons of options of fun attractive 35-55 yr. old women ! Makes me wonder where you live and what your stats actually are?…..LOL
Evan Marc Katz 84
@M You can stop misinterpreting my blog at any time now. Really. There’s no “hammering”. There’s no “it’s a man’s world”. That’s YOUR take on it. My take is that you should LEAVE a man who doesn’t provide the kindness, consistency, and effort that you deserve in a long-term relationship. How exactly is that a fair comparison to the Axis of Evil? Oh, that’s right, it’s not.
I would highly recommend that you either start reading my blog posts as written – where I’m here to HELP women – as opposed to looking for patriarchal subplots that don’t exist. And if that’s too much work for you, there are millions of other blogs where you can find likeminded axe-grinding women who can take any benign comment about gender and turn it into something nefarious. I’m tired of defending myself against things that I don’t actually do, yet I will continue to defend myself from baseless attacks on me, my advice, or men overall.
Lisa M. 85
“Why would attractive men get into relationships when they’re offered so many women? Women wouldn’t settle if today they can get Brad Pitt and tomorrow they can get Johnny Depp.”
Both of these men are in committed relationships. There are many really good-looking men who are married or in committed relationships. Believe it or not, but good-looking men want marriage and committed too, not just less attractive men. I hate the way less attractive men are always demonizing good looking men ,as if, their automatically more committment-minded just because they have less options than good-looking men.
Basically, this is the angle most unattractive men often come at me with when I express no interest in dating them. They want to pitch how much better they will be for me than a better looking guy and that I’m being superficial by not giving them a chance. Meanwhile, they are pursuing me for superficial reasons. I really don’t have to say what this all about, right?
Ruby 86
Derek #79
“Why would attractive men get into relationships when they’re offered so many women? Women wouldn’t settle if today they can get Brad Pitt and tomorrow they can get Johnny Depp.”
Maybe you mean George Clooney? Both Pitt and Depp are in serious relationships and have kids.
Lisa M. 87
Evan,
I know of a couple of blogs ran by women who give advice to other women on how to understand men. These women bloggers basically give the same advice as you do and they too are accused of catering to men by the women who frequent them. This just seems par for course.
Lisa M. 88
Ruby # 86:Maybe you mean George Clooney? Both Pitt and Depp are in serious relationships and have kids.
Clooney is often referred to as a serial monogamist.
Margo 89
@Nathan 79….My comments about the “motivations and desires of men as a “whole”" are that they want sex. I didn’t say that sex is all they want. You have taken my comments out of context and used them to justify your reasoning as to why it’s so hard for you to date.
@Still looking and Evan, yes sex may be readily available, but what I stated was that “worry-free” sex is usually not available when you are sleeping with one or more women in the absence of a commitment.
I say, “usually” because I don’t tend to deal in absolutes either. So, this readily available sex you’re getting is probably coming from a woman that’s sleeping with other men. Why wouldn’t she be, as she has no commitment from you? So, yes, I agree that sex is readily available, but it may not be disease-free…
Still looking, I’d caution you to think about that when you are praising the single life with all this good “readily available” sex to be had.
Derek 90
“Women are more affected by aging in the dating market than are men. The average 42 year old man has more dating options than does a 42 year old woman – he can date a 22 year old or a 52 year old. He may not actually want to go that young, but he has the option to do so. A woman dating that much younger is called a cougar, a bit derisively. There’s no comparable label for men.”
Women got the advantage when they’re young. A 19 year old woman can date any guy from 18 to maybe 25. It’s much harder for a 19 year old guy to older women (most women prefer older and more mature guys).
I’m 20 and I see a lot of women my age date older guys. I’ve only rarely seen a guy date an older woman.
It balances out in the end. If you’re still single when you’re 30 then you’ve probably done something wrong in your 20s. I don’t want to be rude, but women have a lot of power when they’re young.
Derek 91
@ Lisa
Yes, but they’re married to extremely exceptional women. My point is that most women are going for the top 10% of men. I don’t think most of the women stand a chance with marrying those top guys.
The math is simple. I’m just making up a number but the concept remains the same. If 10 women are attracted to one guy then at least 9 of them won’t be marrying him. Those 9 women later complains that men hate relationships.
Men are willing to have sex with women below their league but never have serious relationships. The women complaining about men are probably dating above their league.
If you think you’re that hot, smart, and charming then go for it. But, don’t confuse him having sex with being in his league.
nathan 92
“You have taken my comments out of context and used them to justify your reasoning as to why it’s so hard for you to date.” Whatever you want to believe Margo. I’m not the only one to question your comments, and frankly my pointing out some of the challenges I have when dating shouldn’t make what I’m saying “all about me.”
Most women I know also want to have sex when in a relationship, and some even when just out dating without a necessary commitment. It’s one ingredient in the mix.
Mostly, my disagreement was with your very direct statement “Men commit to get sex.” And it was much more than about my own dating life – hell, many of the other female commenters here don’t agree with you on that point.
Angie 93
@Derek #90
“It balances out in the end. If you’re still single when you’re 30 then you’ve probably done something wrong in your 20s. I don’t want to be rude, but women have a lot of power when they’re young.”
Do you have any concept of HOW YOUNG you are? (I also don’t know what area of the country you are in, so there is a BIG difference between if you are in Oklahoma City vs. New York City).
Let’s see, 20s….
A good time for… going to college (average bachelors in the 22-23 range), and MAYBE grad/law/med school (graduating anywhere from 26-early 30s), realizing your college boyfriend is a loser (maybe around 25-26), restructuring your goals, men don’t ‘mature’ until later and maybe what was acceptable for a boyfriend at 22 isn’t at 25, women also figure themselves out a lot…
I wasn’t ready to even CONSIDER marrying anyone until 27 or so. I wanted to travel, so I moved abroad for a year. I dated people b/c they fit my present, and not b/c I wanted to marry them b/c I certainly had no concept of my future or a want to settle down.
Oh yes, and a “desire to settle down” should be on your list. Check back in when you are 30 and let us know if you felt the urge to settle down, when they happened IF that happened. And 22 year old women don’t want to date 42 year old men (I don’t want to date a 42 year old man and I’m 29).
Venus 94
Still Looking @64
I can relate to that used car salesman. If I am selling Lexus and you are obviously looking for a Ferrari then don’t waste my time. My sales pitch is better spent on the guy who is looking for a Lexus.
I agree that the longer women are single the more accepting they are of their status. I also believe that they are more likely to compromise their standards and settle for crumbs being offered on a silver platter. I hope I never get to that stage!
The way I see it these women are only settling for you because there is nothing better happening in their lives. Who is using who?
Jadafisk 95
“The most important reason is what Evan has mentioned: women tend to enjoy only the top 10% (in terms of looks, social status, and charisma) of men. Therefore, the attractive men are granted an extreme selection of women that less attractive men can only dream of.”
But for your hypothesis to be true, Derek, there would have to be a ton of sexless, dateless single women out there – the 50-70% of women that the top 10% of men would never touch because *they don’t have to.* If you can have sex with as many second stringers as you want and marry/seriously date the first stringers, that’s a lot of people still on the bench, and it’s statistically impossible for 10% of the male population to get beer goggles every weekend and cover that expanse, even if they took two average or below average women home at a time. Also, if women don’t want to date down, they’d have the top 10% of women all to themselves – meaning every time these spectacularly beautiful and charismatic women are in the mood for casual or committed sex, they would want to have it exclusively with men from this group. From a market perspective, they can have the perfect combination of quality and quantity, and there’s only so many hours in the day. A lot of women are going to get completely shut out of that system.
In your scenario, many women would *never* get the opportunity to date a “top 10% guy” – they’d only see them in passing, maybe get a brief introduction, and/or nurse unrequited crushes on them from afar, waiting for an approach that will never come. A lot of these men wouldn’t even be single. Somehow, those women manage to have sex and relationships in the meantime… with who? It would statistically have to be their own counterparts – average and below average men. Some women would have a specter of an encounter – however brief – with a 10%er that recurs, sticks in their mind and poisons them for all others, but the vast majority of women wouldn’t have that real life experience. The vast majority of people marry within their own social status group, and most people end up married. How could this happen if regular women weren’t even dating regular guys? Like for 45 year old men that want 22 year olds, however, the theoretical ability (“Hey, he’s a single earthling, and so am I!”) to get a “top 10% guy” may stand in the way, despite the reality of one’s reach… but if she’s actually dating, she’s probably not dating them. Theoretical options can also psych “less/unattractive” guys into holding out for the type of woman that he’s never had but thinks he deserves for having such a difficult time of it, so dating them wouldn’t be a guarantee by any means, unless the two of them are so far apart in attractiveness/social value that he believes that she’s that woman. Even then, if he wants multiple stunners to make up for lost time, she’s still out of luck.
This is all based on the unfounded assumption that women have generally similar viewpoints on who’s the most attractive, and what social status and charisma mean, when the expression of these traits can differ wildly by class, cultural background and chosen subculture. Every subset has a top 10%, and one group seldom understands and agrees with the other’s ranking system. This gives more people more opportunities to shine, and makes way more sense when compared to actual dating and mating stats, as opposed to everyone except the generally agreed upon top 10% thinking they fell way short of an appealing partner or “holding out for a hero/heroine” until the human lifespan equivalent of last call.
I hope the formatting comes out better… lol.
Maeve 96
Angie @35: Yeah, I know what you mean. I’m newish where I am too, and having a serious relationship sure would take the edge of the long weekends where my daughter’s at her dad’s house. But here’s the thing:
I have a daughter, a very complex and demanding job that I love (mostly), good friends, a side gig as a writer that takes a lot of time, hobbies, etc. etc. etc.–your standard very-full single-mom life. It severely limits the time I have available for a relationship. It’s not ideal, but it is what it is, and my daughter comes first.
In the umpteen whatever guys I have dated, been in relationships with and during my marriage, there have only been two–2–who didn’t see things going anywhere and dumped me. The rest of them were serious from week two. I miss you, when can I see you again, I wish I could have met you ten years ago. Two months in they’re talking about love and marriage and proposals and should we meet each other’s families. The guy I’m seeing now, we met in April and he’s calling me at work 3x/day. It’s sweet and he’s a nice guy, but I’m not ready and he’s clearly anxious for a lot more. “Commitment-phobe” has not been my experience.
And there, again–since I divorced, I’ve ended a couple of relationships with guys who were crazy about me and who I really loved because I didn’t think a marriage with them was going to last or be satisfactory in the long-term. And I’m not desperate to be married again just to be married again. It has to be to the right person. Of my divorced mom friends, most are in the same boat, taking their time and trying to find the right one, not just anyone. My ex-husband? Is getting remarried to the first girl who looked at him after the divorce. He hates being single.
It’s a powerful steroetype, but hell, even widowers get remarried faster than widows. Men do hate being single. Some men are endless players, just like some women, but if all the men a girl’s been with don’t want to be in a relationship, it’s the guys she’s dating, not guys in general.
still looking 97
Venus @ 94
Sometimes those in the market for a Ferrari realize that exotic sports cars are very high maintenance and by shopping around they might find out that what they really want is a Lexus, a Toyota, or perhaps even a model they had never even thought they might have considered.
You wrote, “The way I see it these women are only settling for you because there is nothing better happening in their lives. Who is using who?”
Wow, should I get defensive here? Go on the attack? Claim that in essence, your statement could be applied to every person and every situation – you drive the car you do because you can’t do better? You wake up every morning and go to a job because you can’t do better? Every man you have ever gone out with was the best option at that time and you were the best option (nothing better available) for him?
I’d rather think that the women who go out with me are just as happy to spend time with me as I am with them. I might be wrong but I’d rather be wrong than walk around with a bitter attitude. I’d also like to think that my dates don’t view me as an opportunity to use someone just as I don’t view them as an object to use. Did you ever consider the possibility that two people can go out and enjoy each other’s company without “using” each other? That perhaps, just maybe, two adults can go on a date without some underlying nefarious purpose and motivation?
I truly hope you can find some happiness.
Rob 98
This guy hates being single.
What I would give to “hold your purse while you shopped at Nordstrom,” to gaze upon your face in your sleep, to wake up next to you in the cobalt blueness of dawn, to have the honor and privilege of growing old with you, to caress your face as we age over the years, to feel the warmth of your radiant soul…and to fade into you: literature, art galleries, theatre, ambient beats, mad pianists, creative collaborations, deep groves, breezy coasts, walks in the rain, contemplating the heavens, slow dances, love’s madness, wit, humor, hilarity, being clearly obscure, seeing the invisible, listening to what is not being said, the cobalt blueness of dawn, the fiery orange of dusk, a seductive look, a tender embrace, staring into another’s eyes and seeing one’s reflection, lucid dreaming, sleeping in on Sunday mornings, the sublime, observing the observer, surrendering to something higher, acting on faith, growing into the answers, epiphanies, manifestations, breaking it down, building it up, philosophy, spiritual studies, transcending, evolving, bohemian afternoons, avant-garde nights, playful friendship, partners in crime, teachers, sacrifices, life’s lessons, smiling while in pain, and choosing happiness.
What I would give not to be alone.
Venus 99
I enjoy my career and my car. I spent a lot of time building the former and did my research before choosing the latter. Don’t need to jump from job to job or spend years test driving every single vehicle model before I make a decision. And because I know these are what I want I don’t consider them temporary options while I wait for something amazing to come along.
I have opportunities to date and meet men, but guess what? If I don’t think that they are a good fit for me I won’t waste their time. Having had scary instances with stalkers reinforces that position. It goes without saying that having casual sex with men is not an option. I don’t have anything against women who use men like you for that purpose but its just not my thing.
Ruby 100
Angie #93
”And 22 year old women don’t want to date 42 year old men (I don’t want to date a 42 year old man and I’m 29).”
I think that’s true of most 22 year olds, but my point is that it’s more socially acceptable for a man to date much younger than it is for a woman.
Derek #90
“If you’re still single when you’re 30 then you’ve probably done something wrong in your 20s.”
Done something wrong? Like what? Perhaps not be ready for marriage by age 30? What about those women who did marry before age 30 and then got divorced? Did they do something wrong?
Gem 101
Venus
Still Looking said:
“Did you ever consider the possibility that two people can go out and enjoy each other’s company without “using” each other? That perhaps, just maybe, two adults can go on a date without some underlying nefarious purpose and motivation?”
This is the attitude I take when I date men. With no preconceived expectations and the goal to just meet someone interesting and enjoy myself. If “magic” happens, I’m all for it but I don’t have a single-minded goal of finding that next man to marry.
I also enjoy my single life for all the reasons he does as well, except available sex when I want it. I only have sex inside exclusivity.
But I don’t judge men and women who do partake in sex while they’re dating — even if in their gut they know the person they’re sexing probably isn’t going to be “the one.” If people are honest and don’t lead each other on, grown adults can do what they wish.
Why do you consider that using?
Venus 102
@ Gem,
Its using because he has made it clear that he is comfortable dating and casually having sex with these women even though he does not consider them good enough to be a life mate. I am also suggesting that the women who have accepted his terms are also using him because its the best offer they have at the moment. Free meals, entertainment, ready availability of sex – but if something more meaningful comes along they will likely drop him like a hot potato and move on with their lives. I actually never said anything about his behaviour being nefarious?
Happy 103
98. Rob
“This guy hates being single.”
Wow! This gives me hope and is like a light in the dark night.
Yes, it really does exist!
Margo 104
Still Looking said: “BTW, your blog is great and I’ve recommended your site to quite a few women. Just hope they don’t put two and two together and realize who Still Looking is”
Still Looking…You said you were being honest with these women who you are having casual sex with and not leading any of them on. So, what does your above statement mean?
Lisa M. 105
Derek @ 91: Yes, but they’re married to extremely exceptional women. My point is that most women are going for the top 10% of men. I don’t think most of the women stand a chance with marrying those top guys.
Women are not going for the 10% of men for marriage. Most women tend to be realistic about where we rank appearance wise and know that we will end up with men in their league for the most part. Yes, below average and average women may sometimes get to sleep with the 10% of men but they know that’s all they’ll get is sex from these men.
Men unlike most women tend price their looks up in the dating market holding out for women who are out of their league. I rarely hear women complaining about not getting really hot men who are out their league. This seems to be more of a running theme with below average and average looking men.
“If you think you’re that hot, smart, and charming then go for it. But, don’t confuse him having sex with being in his league.”
Its remarks like that I was referring to. Why do below average and average looking feel so entitled to above average looking women? Wouldn’t it be much easier to just date who is in your league?
And what I have always found really interesting is that really good-looking men don’t seem as obsessed with dating really good-looking women. I knew a really good-looking guy who said, that he preferred dating average looking women because he couldn’t get along with women in his league.
Not every woman Brad Pitt and George Clooney have dated were in their league. In my opinion, I think the hottest woman Brad ever dated was Angelina. But, men who are not good-looking feel that 9s and 10s should give them chance and are resentful when they don’t.
Gem 106
Venus,
“Its using because he has made it clear that he is comfortable dating and casually having sex with these women even though he does not consider them good enough to be a life mate.”
Are the women “not good enough” or possibly just not the right match?
Still Looking can defend himself…but as a woman who dates similarly, I don’t consider myself a user. I have continued to date men after I’ve come to KNOW we will never be life mates. Doing so honestly, of course. The relationship becomes more of a friendship but still maintains a “date” feel because we do things couples do.
It’s not that these men aren’t good enough. It’s that for whatever reason we don’t quite click, we lack chemistry, or ultimately want different things.
We date openly while still searching for our “one” and if I need a date for an event or vise versa we call each other. I care about them, want the best for them, enjoy their company, and enjoy being social with men I’m comfortable with. It’s a win-win when there isn’t a special someone and we still have a “date” when we need/want one.
Angie 107
@Ruby #100
“I think that’s true of most 22 year olds, but my point is that it’s more socially acceptable for a man to date much younger than it is for a woman.”
I can speak truthfully on this. Most people are not ok with these relationships. 22 can date 28, and be socially acceptable. The two men in their 40s / women in their 20s relationships I personally know have greatly upset most friends and family.
The one is a typical gold-digging arrangement, although I don’t think the two of them see it this way. She is 25 and pretty. He is 47 and wealthy, has bought her trips to NYC and Jamaica, takes her to nice restaurants 2-3 times a week as well as concerts/theater shows. He also claimed he was divorced, but he is in fact only separated. (Her own father is 49 and very vocal about his unhappiness with this relationship).
The other one was VERY predatory. She was only 21-ish and a bit of a late bloomer – someone who was a chubby teen and lost a lot of weight during college and came out of her shy shell, and he was late 30s/early 40s and a bit of a loser (I don’t want to imply one is a loser, but he was not wealthy and charming - he was a pizza delivery guy in the pizzeria she had a p/t job at while in a top college, he was unattractive and preyed on her low self-esteem). She hid this relationship from her family, but told her friends.
I don’t know if anyone else knows 20-something women dating 40-something men, but I can assure you, in my personal experience, it was not well received.
still looking 108
Margo@104
I haven’t written anything on this particular blog that I haven’t or wouldn’t share with the women I date. I do prefer to remain anonymous because of the “chilling effect” it might have on my comments if I thought someone I was dating or had dated was reading what I wrote.
I’m assuming you are honest with the men you date. Would you want to hand over a binder of all of your posts to a man the evening before you go on a first date with him?
Also, to clear up any misconceptions, I don’t date for the sake of casual sex. I don’t want to risk the “drama” that can arise from casual sex and therefore only have sex with someone I’m interested in seeing again. Like many people, I find sex to be readily available but selective with regard to who I have sex with. Hope that doesn’t sound smug
Ruby 109
Angie #22
It depends on the situation, of course. I know a guy who got together with a former student of his who was 25, 22 years younger than himself, and no one batted an eye. Another man I know just married a woman 19 years younger, and again, no big deal. In both case, the woman’s parents didn’t care. But they were never gold-digger/abusive relationships. Definitely more common than an older woman/younger man scenario.
Helen 110
To return to Evan’s original question, “Why don’t men hate being single as much as women do,” I think it has to do almost entirely with social norms and traditions. Fortunately and delightfully, these can change with time, and we are beginning to see the changes already.
Traditionally (noticeably till about 40 years ago), it was much more difficult for a single woman to make an independent living than a single man, because jobs and education were much more scarce for women. Traditionally, too, it was always assumed that a woman’s rightful role was in the home – and how can she have a real “home” unless she has a husband and children?
Now the economics of the situation is changing, but social norms change more slowly. We women can have our own jobs, and it is no longer assumed by most people that women belong at home first and foremost. Still, so many of our mental images stem from tradition: the white bridal dress, the images of mom wearing an apron baking pies for families, etc. – and these are really hard to overcome. Our best literature, including our best children’s books, are largely older books that reinforce those norms. No wonder it is so difficult to uproot traditional ideas.
That doesn’t mean that we’re enslaved to them. There are more modern female authors than ever, there are women shaking every corner of the working world, there is greater acceptance of women living unconventional lifestyles. More and more happily single women exist now than ever before. So, Elaine, don’t view this state of affairs as static. And don’t forget the power YOU have to build the life you want, free of conforming to traditional ideas of what you should want and how you should feel.
nathan 111
Derek: “women tend to enjoy only the top 10% (in terms of looks, social status, and charisma) of men. Therefore, the attractive men are granted an extreme selection of women that less attractive men can only dream of.” You know, perhaps this is what you’re seeing as a 20 year old, but I’ll tell you, that kind of crap doesn’t hold for the most part. Those with outrageously high standards – men and women – tend to get worn down by experience. A small percentage will cling to their fantasies and dismiss anyone who doesn’t appear to fit the bill, but the majority either end up in lousy relationships/marriages with a partner they thought was “perfect,” or they wise up and change their standards to something that’s more healthy and reasonable.
And you know, I’m 35 years old. Never been married. And can say that with any of the women I dated in my 20′s, a marriage would have probably been pretty awful. I know people who met the right person fairly young, but I wasn’t one of those. It doesn’t matter how old you are anyway – it matters most how healthy you are about relationships.
Oh, and as to Lisa’s point above about men and looks, I agree. If you’re too focused on dating “a hottie,” chances are the rest of your desires around relationships are out of whack as well.
Lisa M. 112
”Like many people, I find sex to be readily available but selective with regard to who I have sex with. Hope that doesn’t sound smug”
This is very true in today’s dating market. Many women are finding it empowering to have no-strings sex (although, I fail to see what’s so empowering about being a sperm dump.). So, if a man can get laid as much as he wants without having to make a commit, why would he?
And no, you don’t sound smug because this is the fact of the matter. There are plenty of women ready and willing to have sex with men who have made no commit (and will not) to them. I hope one day women will get a clue.
Donna 113
@ Rob #98
Beautiful….simply beautifully put !
amazingg0477 114
“There are plenty of women ready and willing to have sex with men who have made no commit (and will not) to them. I hope one day women will get a clue.”
I just don’t understand this! Why do I, or any other woman for that matter need to “get a clue?” If the man and woman are on the same page vis a vis commitment, what is the harm in having sex? This just perpetuates the stereotype that women need to use sex as leverage. If both parties are mutually satisfied and honest, then nobody is getting used.
Lisa M. 115
The “get a clue” remark is for women who are seeking a committment and believe that using sex will get them one. You can’t start off having no-strings sex with a guy and then a couple of months in start demanding that he define the relationship. It is just a bit backwards to me, that’s all.
Now, if a woman is not seeking a committment and just wants to get laid…fine. You’re both adults and you both know exactly where you stand right from the beginning…fine.
And yes, I believe that sex should be used as leverage. I know it’s a bit archaic. But oh, well.
Margo 116
@ Lisa M. “And yes, I believe that sex should be used as leverage. I know it’s a bit archaic. But, oh well.”
I’m with Lisa on this one. If a man doesn’t give me a commitment, he ain’t getting jack!
While kissing in his car, the man I was with last Sat. immediately went for my chest and between my legs. My comment to him: “Um, no”.
Jadafisk 117
“Many women are finding it empowering to have no-strings sex (although, I fail to see what’s so empowering about being a sperm dump.) So, if a man can get laid as much as he wants without having to make a commit, why would he? ”
Why is a woman who does this have to be a “sperm dump?” I doubt they find it “empowering”*… merely enjoyable, probably convenient, perhaps even exciting. If restricting sexual access/activity works for you, why such barely concealed animus towards women who choose not to do this? If the guy honestly shares your values, there’s nothing those women are doing that’s going to affect your success. If your target demo is primarily composed of hypocrites, however… that’s where the problem is. A man who has to be dragged to the altar will probably be an unfaithful husband. If those men don’t *have* to be husbands because they can get sex as single men, this is better for everyone.
*few life decisions/preferences truly are
Venus 118
@ Gem,
I have made a couple of really good friends from Match. When I’m in their area we have drinks, hit the clubs and do things that friends do. I don’t consider those to be dates. We send each other information about our love prospects and offer advice or solace as the situation may require. That’s what friends do. Am I using them? No. Because we have forged a relationship that is not dependent on the possibility of a trade-up.
If I said to you that I love this arrangement I have with them because I can get A,B and C, but if I met someone who catches my fancy this will cease and I will have no more need for that connection… then I am a user.
Maybe I came across a bit harsh to Still Looking, but his post reminded me of one of the negative aspects of online dating. Guys who play the numbers game and use female vulnarability to their advantage.
Venus 119
@ Rob 98
I’m hoping you are in my area. :-)
Diana 120
To Rob #98, I love your heartfelt message and poetic words. Based on what you have shared, I think that if we ever met, we would feel like kindred spirits, i.e. from one writer to another with similar interests and sensitivities. I love to listen in silence to memories in the rain. catch sunbeams that kiss the horizon good night, and touch cotton candy skies that ripple like waves at the shore of time.
Hope springs eternal. I hope you meet her someday.
p.s. Sorry Evan for being off topic.
Margo 121
@Still looking 108, this isn’t an attack, it’s an observation: your explanation of your comment I was referring to in post #104 doesn’t ring true. If you really had nothing to hide regarding your philosophy on dating and relatonships, you wouldn’t be uncomfortable with the women you date reading anything you wrote as long as you weren’t revealing what occured on actual dates.
Mika 122
@JB #83
Still looking will not spill the beans obviously, but I totally see where he is coming from and have no doubt that he’s candid saying that he’s having his cake and actually eating it too. I personally know a few guys of your age who play the field the way SL does and have lots of options. And why not if they can and don’t want to commit to one woman? In my case, they are doctors/lawyers — you got the picture — lots of charisma, good education, financial freedom, well read and traveled that makes them universal lovers. I am not stereotyping here, just sharing my observations.
@ Venus 118 “Maybe I came across a bit harsh to Still Looking, but his post reminded me of one of the negative aspects of online dating. Guys who play the numbers game and use female vulnarability to their advantage.
It’s not that black and white as you see it. If you’ll take a closer look at the flip side of the guys who play the numbers game, you’ll see that there are usually some deep-seated issues that they can’t get over with or just in denial. It applies to both sexes and it doesn’t make them bad people. It’s just who they are and it’s only up to you whether you want to put up with what they have to offer or not. I merely don’t see the point in being upset about something we can’t change — men or women. And even if you do put up, there is no guarantee that they are not going to surprise you with a out of wedlock child after 25 years of marriage.
amazingg0477 123
@Jadafisk that’s exactly what I’m talking about! I’m not a “sperm dump” just because I choose to have sex without commitment. Why the name-calling and slut-shaming, just because I have chosen (which is my right) to do something that you disagree with? I don’t go around calling women that won’t have sex without a commitment a manipulative bitch/prude that’s setting back the women’s movement. Before you jump down my throat, that’s not how I feel at all. Not having sex without a commitment is a very valid position, just an example of how some might perceive you as you have so eloquently done with “sperm dump.” Defensive? Hell yes! I’m tired of being vilified for making my own choices. Isn’t that what feminism is about – making your own choices, being the kind of woman you want to be?
Honey 124
Re: women dating Johnny Depp and Brad Pitt-types, I think part of the problem is that women who are 10′s want to date guys who are 10′s but have those guys act as if they are 1′s and grateful to be with a 10. Not gonna happen – if you are both more or less equal on the attractiveness scale (regardless of where on the scale you fall) you are going to be EQUALS in the relationship, too. Everyone has to compromise the same amount in that case (which is to say, significantly, inconveniently, and not on any of the issues that you expected to). Maybe lots of singles who are 10′s don’t expect that because the compromises other 10′s in relationships have to make aren’t obvious to people outside the relationship.
When a 10 DOES date a 1 (or as is more likely, a 6 or 7) then perhaps the lower-numbered person does put the 10 on a pedastal and the 10 expects to be treated that way, but in that case the compromise necessary for the relationship to continue (while not necessarily greater than any other relationship compromise) is clear-cut and obvious – to the rest of the world as well as the participants.
Of course, I’d put myself and Jake as probably 7′s on an objective attractiveness scale – the ability that he has to compromise with me is a large part of what makes him a 10 in my eyes. 5 years in, this seems to be how he feels as well.
Venus 125
@Mika 122
I take your point that each person is defined by their history and experience and generalisations are often inacurate.
But when I see – in black and white - a guy singing praises to online dating because its endless supply of women to date and the ready availablity of sex, makes it me think that OLD is a pond. One has to swim through a lot of scum to get to the gold.
still looking 126
Venus @118 & 125
You stated, “ Maybe I came across a bit harsh to Still Looking, but his post reminded me of one of the negative aspects of online dating. Guys who play the numbers game and use female vulnarability to their advantage. ”
Dating IS a numbers game. You date people until you find Mr./Ms. Right. A person might get lucky and find “the one” after 3 dates, 30 dates, or 300 dates. Some people might only go on one date a year, while others might have the time, energy, and desire to go on 3 dates a week. Are you really judging people by how often they go on a date?
You comment on men using women’s vulnerability to their advantage has me baffled. The only scenarios I can come up with are guys who attempt to prey on women in dire circumstances (just out of an abusive relationship, unemployed with 6 kids, etc.). That’s not what I do and I believe it is highly unlikely that many guys purposefully set out to find women with baggage/drama that might be vulnerable. Would you please explain what you meant by this comment?
You also stated, ” But when I see – in black and white - a guy singing praises to online dating because its endless supply of women to date and the ready availablity of sex, makes it me think that OLD is a pond. One has to swim through a lot of scum to get to the gold. ”
Assuming that the typical woman lives near a large city, wouldn’t you agree that:
1. She has a seemingly endless supply of guys willing to date her?
2. That, if she chooses, sex is readily available?
Based on your comment, if you answered yes to these two questions then am I to assume you consider all of these women to also be scum?
As long as I’m tossing questions your way, do you think women are “using” men when they agree to go on a date with a man? The men are arguably vulnerable because they want companionship, someone to eat dinner with, someone to laugh with, and eventually, someone to have a long term relationship with. Just out of curiosity, out of the last 10 first dates you went on, when you decided before the meal was over that you were not interested in seeing the man again, did you once insist on paying for the date so you wouldn’t be “using” the man?
Please take the time to answer these questions. You appear to have some unique views and I’m always interested in hearing a different perspective. Even when I’m described as pond scum lol.
Lisa M. 127
@Jadafisk & Amazing,
Okay, if you are both happy with your choices, then why the vitriol? I don’t know either of you and I wasn’t addressing you personally. So, how am I name-calling? And how am I setting back the Women’s Movement? Amazing, you mentioned making your own choices as a woman and I have made mine and you have made yours. So, if someone wants to refer to me as a manipulative bitch/prude. I could care less because I have made my choice and I’m happy with it.
I could also care less about what other women want to do with their own bodies. I just don’t feel that having casual sex is empowering but if this makes other women feel empowered…fine, different strokes for different folks. And we are entitled to our opinions, right? And yes, for ME sleeping with a guy I barely know or wasn’t in a committed relationship with would make ME feel like a “sperm dump”. If this not how YOU feel, then why would I care? Do you.
Lisa M. 128
“When a 10 DOES date a 1 (or as is more likely, a 6 or 7) then perhaps the lower-numbered person does put the 10 on a pedastal …”
This can be very off-putting.
Jadafisk 129
127. I actually personally occupy the *other* pole of sexual permissiveness. Just like I don’t want to be looked down upon as a prudish manipulator brainwashed by the church, I don’t think other women should be looked at as foolish sperm dumps for making different choices. That’s all. I’m about as removed from personal offense re: this issue as a person could possibly be.
Also, no one’s contending that these women even see it as “empowering” except you. I call straw man.
Margo 130
In our society, it has always been customary for a man to pay for a woman’s dinner. Men are wired to potect, and take care of a woman. If he doesn’t want to pay for dinner that is a glimpse into his character and/or how he was raised. Any self-respecting woman should stear clear of such a man. It doesn’t matter if she has decided not to see him again before she even picks up her fork. If he is a gentlemen, he will gladly pay and expect nothing in return.
Evan Marc Katz 131
@Margo: “In our society, it has always been customary for a man to pay for a woman’s dinner. Men are wired to potect, and take care of a woman. If he doesn’t want to pay for dinner that is a glimpse into his character and/or how he was raised. Any self-respecting woman should stear clear of such a man. It doesn’t matter if she has decided not to see him again before she even picks up her fork. If he is a gentlemen, he will gladly pay and expect nothing in return.”
I’m not sure if I can begin to capture the ignorance, selfishness and blindness of those collective statements.
First of all, men HAD to pay for women until the 1970′s or so because most women didn’t work. That’s why it was customary.
“Men are wired” to protect? Are we bigger and stronger genetically? Sure. But we’re no smarter, more educated or wealthier than you are. The only difference is that you have to decide whether you’re going to put your all into a career or sacrifice something to bear children. And in a world where men and women are truly equal (right?), I think it’s selfish to assume that a guy should want to continually pick up the tab for every stranger he meets in perpetuity. Men “will gladly pay and expect nothing in return” may be a woman’s fantasy, but it’s not something that’s based in every man’s reality.
Here are just a few reasons why:
1) A man who hasn’t been raised by a chivalrous father will not learn chivalry. That’s not his fault.
2) A man who hasn’t had to practice chivalry in dating will not always know what he’s doing wrong. And if he never gets a second date with women like you, he never learns.
3) A man who is struggling financially doesn’t always feel it’s fair for him to pay. And it’s not.
4) People are accustomed to reciprocity – to assume that a man will never want anything in return is to ignore human nature.
5) A man who pays every time, only to find out that half the women never want to see him again, eventually feels like a sucker, chump or human ATM. That’ll hurt his “desire” to pay for you “gladly”.
Are you starting to see that there’s another side to this, Margo?
The reason that men pay for you is either because a) they were raised chivalrous and never actually questioned the practice, b) because they have the means to and hope this will give them leverage to get laid, or c) because they know that if they want to get a second date, they have to pay. You can count me in the last category. If I were coaching men, I would tell them to pay unequivocally for the first three or four dates when courting, but only because it’s “effective”. (I use the same “effective” and “ineffective” tools to help women do the right things on the first date – like kissing, for example). If I were to give a man further coaching, I’d tell him to pay attention to whether she offers to help out with the check. If she doesn’t offer – and from the tone of your post, Margo, it doesn’t sound like you do – I would tell him to dump her in about three seconds flat.
A woman who makes equal or more than a man and takes advantage of an anachronistic tradition without any sympathy or understanding of the man’s perspective is someone who is entitled and will treat their entire relationship as if he owes her something because he’s “wired” to serve and protect her, as if he’s some combination of a philanthropist, father, and police officer.
You know when men REALLY want to give and protect you? After you’ve slept with us and we’ve fallen in love with you. And if you think we love spending money on strangers, try putting the shoe on the other foot and see how it fits.
By the way, there’s a good blog post on the right sidebar that may illuminate my thoughts on this further.
Evan Marc Katz 132
Oh, and my wife just offered this hypothetical: “Imagine that you spent $75 on dinner and drinks for a man, and then you never heard from him again. How would you feel?”
Sorry for the rant; I just get so up in arms when people see only one side of the story without considering the emotion or logic on the other side.
The defense rests, your honor.
Jadafisk 133
“If he doesn’t want to pay for dinner that is a glimpse into his character and/or how he was raised. Any self-respecting woman should stear clear of such a man.”
*headdesk* Again with the implications that women who don’t have identical dating preferences/habits don’t respect themselves.
What about the men who believe that since they paid for dinner, they’ve bought sexual access? Those obviously aren’t men of good character. That attribute is entirely too standardized to be effective. Most women *only* date men who pay. Most women have had atrocious dates and relationships with men who do this. In our society, it’s also customary for wives to find out about cheating husbands by analyzing their purchasing history. If even they buy things for their (often) unwitting accomplices, it’s just not a good metric.
Sayanta 134
EMK-
) to have sex with a man until you’re sure that he wants more than just sex from you.
I agree completely with your response to Margo. The question is- I’m not understanding “men want to give and protect” after we’ve slept with them and they’ve fallen in love with us. The thing is, in the same vein that a lot of men won’t want to pay for fancy dinners for women who’ll never contact them again, I won’t want to sleep with someone who might disappear on me.
Let me think of how to phrase this…see, if what you say is true, then we have to sleep with someone to have them fall in love with us. It doesn’t sound like something you’d say, based on your past posts- am I interpreting correctly, or wrongly, here? But at the same time, your advice has been (and I stood by this long before I started reading your blog
But if men won’t want to ‘give and protect’ until after women have slept with them, how does all this play out? It seems that women and men are operating from a position of opposition, right?
Angie 135
@Margo #130
I think men feel “wired to protect” their sisters and female friends. Honestly, my male friends have been more protective of me than guys I’ve dated (or even been in relationships with, b/c “protective” moves quickly into overprotective and jealous), but I feel male friends have no ulterior motives and they are genuinely “protecting” you against sleazy guys, which is what women actually need protection against. In fact one of my friends is one of the sleaziest guys and not allowed around my girlfriends, but he is also ferociously protective and judgmental of guys when it comes to looking out for his female friends (and usually always accurate) … But, I’m not really sure what you meant by “protective”. Bears? Robbers?
On the flipside, I don’t think people should have expensive first dates. This way, neither party should “mind” paying. If I know I don’t want to see you again, I will offer but not feel guilty if you INSIST on spending $15-20 on me. I went out with a guy who invited me for drinks, then at the last minute he told me to meet him at a different location “for dinner and drinks” because he had tickets to a show. So instead of grabbing a drink, I now went on this obviously pricey date and it took me 5 minutes to realize this was going nowhere.
Evan is totally right. I think more guys, especially my age, pay because they want something – a second date, you to hook up with them (hardly chivalrous) – than b/c they are “gentlemen”.
Evan Marc Katz 136
Aha, Sayanta, that’s because you are equating love and sex. So let’s put this in a clear, simple order:
Man meets woman, asks her out.
Man takes her on date, does everything right, including paying.
Man follows up the next day to make plans again, and continues to keep in touch by email/phone/text between dates.
Man engages in various stages of foreplay for five dates/1 month and requests sex. Woman turns him down until she’s sure they’re exclusive.
Man takes a night to think about this offer, realizes that not only is she cool and accepts him as he is, but she’s the only mature adult he’s ever dated, and, on their next date, asks to be exclusive.
Man and woman have sex.
Man and woman have sex many, many times over the next four-six months.
Man says “I love you” because he’s waiting until he’s sure before he says it.
At least that’s how it happened for me. Except I was the one who said no to sex before commitment.
Venus 137
@ Still Looking 126
By numbers game I am referring to men who date several women at once with no intention of ever being serious with any of them. These women are good enough for fun but not good enough for more. You know the “players” They enjoy the on-line option because of the opportunities it presents.
Vulnerability isn’t limited to women who have endured abuse or are in financial difficulties. Women don’t join dating sites because of those factors (well not usually). Vulnerability in the dating context refers to women who are lonely, who are not having some of their basic physiological needs met (you know, companionship, intimacy, validation), and those who are emotionally deprived. I am not suggesting that this applies to every woman on a dating site. But it is a reality. This is probably why there are so many scammers and players on there. They recognize that there are opportunities to be had from this population.
When a woman accepts your terms of an in-the-moment arrangement with sex included it’s probably because she can get some of those needs met. Further, she is probably still thinking that she can “change” the terms of the initial engagement and turn it into something long term. In effect she is either agreeing to a mutual “using” arrangement or she is fooling herself into thinking that she can make you see her in a different light.
I can’t argue against the fact that OLD does provide both men and women with an endless supply of possible dates. The point however is for those seeking a meaningful relationship, dating is a means to an end. It’s a process we go through to get there. For a person who is into short term arrangements OLD is a gold mine! You can date perpetually and change women as frequently as you change your shirts. AND it has an anonymity bonus that makes it all the more attractive.
Accepting a date is “using” if the motive is something other than to engage in a mutual exchange with a view of determining interest and compatibility. Ok, I know that sounded weird. I am not suggesting an interview format. Dates should be fun. But If a woman agrees to go out with a guy knowing that she is not in the least interested but thinking that she would enjoy those front row seats to the big game, or a meal in that new French restaurant on the lakefront, then she is using him.
Pay for the first date? Isn’t that emasculating!? LOL!!! I will pay only if I suggested the date and it was a complete failure. That’s my – Thank you for your time, I don’t want you to be out of pocket for this – gift. I will pay for the second date and try to ensure that it balances out in future so that the entire financial burden is not on him.
Venus 138
@Margo 129
I agree with you. It says something about a guy’s character if he does not offer to pick up the tab on the first date. If he cannot afford a fancy restaurant he should suggest something that is within his means.
I also agree that men are wired to protect. Thats why our brothers threaten to crush guys who look at us too hard, Why our mates rush in with a shoe when a spider is discovered in the bathtub and why they usher us inside and stand at the dooway with a shot gun when they feel a threatening force. It is also why our male led military is slow to put women on the frontline.
We are still considered to be the softer sex and sometimes this has its advantages.
nathan 139
Venus and Margo – Is it still the 1950s? I mean, really, what happened to women wanting equal partnerships?
Did I just dream the last fifty years of social change, or are both of you just desiring that men be both the traditional patriarchal power players and also somehow display all the positives that the various feminist movements have brought?
Rob 140
Buddhism says that desire is the source of suffering: think of the collective suffering on the various online dating sites.
I’m not like most other guys. I’m not a player or a serial dater. I’ve only had sex with one woman, my ex. I would rather date one woman a hundred times than date a hundred different women. Therefore, I reserve my devotion, affection, mind, body and soul only for that one special woman that I hope to find. Being single for now is the necessary suffering I must endure until I find a compatible mate.
If it took the universe 14 billion years since the Big Bang to create the most exquisite and complex creatures – women – I think I can be patient.
Evan Marc Katz 141
Hey Venus, you’re forgetting something when you talk about your brothers beating up men and your mates with their shotguns (these are very low-brow, uneducated visions of how a man should act, by the way):
Your brother and your mate already love you.
The guy on the first and second date has no feelings for you whatsoever. And you have no feelings towards him.
So remind me again why a stranger should want to pay for you and expect nothing in return?
Jadafisk 142
“Pay for the first date? Isn’t that emasculating!?”
….if that’s all it takes to emasculate him, the job was pretty much 98% done before you showed up.
SS 143
Well, I’ve always said that the person who does the asking out should pay. For a first and second date, it’s typically the man who does the asking out, so in such cases, I look for him to pay. I’ve actually never had a problem with them expecting me to contribute at this point — there seems to be an understanding that this is how dating goes. I’m wondering though what kind of first date costs $75… yikes! Of course, I was dating in the Midwest, so you can get a reasonable dinner with one drink apiece for about $40 here (and most times, I never got a drink anyway).
I’ve always said, “thank you,” to the man after he picked up the check. Most times, I haven’t even had the chance to do the “fake reach” (I actually stopped doing that about three years ago anyway), because he quickly grabbed the check and it was never just sitting there waiting for someone to make a move. Maybe this is a very regional thing, but when I was dating, I was dating in the Midwest and South, and there seemed to be a strong sense of chivalry and “traditionalism” among the men there in this particular aspect of dating.
After that, I say it depends. I have offered to pay (or presented a coupon) on a third date. Most times, I’m still turned down. When we’re exclusive, I’ve paid, but even then, the men I dated strongly preferred to pay… almost felt offended by the fact that I was attempting to do so. I guess I’m just not all that familiar or accustomed to guys who expect straight-down-the-middle payment equality, because I honestly never met those guys during my dating days.
As for “equal” partnerships… there are many ways to define that. No relationship or marriage is ever going to be 50/50 in every aspect. Maybe my contribution to the relationship is doing all of the cooking and he pays for all of the eating out. Maybe he does all of the handiwork while I do the laundry. It’s an equitable partnership, but I never felt that just because there should be equity in a relationship, that meant that women had to start paying for dates to prove “equality” in a relationship.
Equality in the public sphere doesn’t translate to requiring the same exact rules in the private sphere. Each couple has to determine what’s best for them. If that makes me “1950s,” so be it.
kenley 144
When I go on first date that is at a coffee shop, I always arrive early and purchase my own beverage or treats. And, when my date arrives and sees that I have already purchased my stuff, they always look disappointed — “Oh, you already got your stuff.” Is what they say with a sad expression. When i have gone on lunch or dinner dates, I always offer to pay, but the guy always picks up the tab even when he doesn’t ask me for a second date. So, my experience has been that men do seem to want to pay for the first date. Perhaps age makes a different as I do date men that are in their late 40′s to mid 60′s.
Still Looking 145
@ Venus 137 & 138 -
You stated, “By numbers game I am referring to men who date several women at once with no intention of ever being serious with any of them. These women are good enough for fun but not good enough for more. You know the “players” They enjoy the on-line option because of the opportunities it presents.”
I do date several women at once but I don’t know if I have any intention to entering a serious relationship with any of them. That is why I date, so I can determine if any of them are right for a long term relationship.
Regarding the issue of paying for dinner, I always pay. If a woman offers to pay, that shows me something about her character. I always refuse to allow a date to pay but the offer is appreciated. I recently went on a date and my date’s drinks, appetizer, and entree exceeded 70% of the bill and it was a fairly expensive restaurant – that she had picked. That date gave me some insight into her character also.
You also stated that IF a man can’t afford a fancy restaurant on a first date, he should pick something that is within his means.
I really hope you are not suggesting a man is somehow obligated to take a woman to a fancy restaurant for a first date just because he can afford to or that a woman is somehow entitled to be wined/dined to the extent of the man’s financial means. If I don’t drop $200 on a night out with my children, why in the world would I do so with a woman who I have never met before and most likely will only see one time?
There are women who “use” men as an ATM just as there are men who “use” women for sex. I’m going to take a wild guess here that both prefer fancy restaurants for first dates.
SS 146
Kenley, I dated late 20s-late 30s and found the same response, so I don’t necessarily think that it’s an age thing. I was advising a friend as well about this, and she said she reached over to take the check after inviting a friend out for drinks. Even though she did the inviting, he looked disappointed and said to her, “Oh, I was going to get it for you.”
When I asked various guys about this, they said their parents (mom and dad) taught them that this was part of being a gentleman. I’ve heard this from different ages and races, whether first meeting a guy “in real life” or online.
So… based on my personal experience (and based on being one who initially tried to “pay my share” and be “equal”) I honestly wonder about a man’s mindset when I read such vehemence about paying for dates or hear them try to bring up feminism or women’s fight for equality to make it seem like we’re sending mixed messages.
Because in my experience, the men I went on dates with (and it was quite a few) have wanted to pay and have typically done so without a moment’s thought or discussion about it.
JB 147
@SS ….I live in suburban Chicago.I had a first “meet for a drink”date from Match.She suggested Cheesecake Factory in the mall because she knew where it was and I said fine. It was 5 pm,she showed up,she was as cute as her pic.I said I’m hungry I’m going to get a burger with my beer and told her to order something with her “umbrella”drink.She ordered the “chicken whatever” and another drink…yadda yadda yadda my bill was about 80 bucks with tip.We went out 1 more time,pizza and movie $40.00 and she emailed me and said she wasn’t attracted to me but we could be “friends”. I’m not complaining because I offered and it was my choice. It’s called “dating” and yes it IS like gambling financially for men and those of us that have been doing it for years understand it.If we’re hitting it off with someone we’re hoping it’s an “investment” that will pay “dividends” later in the form of a normal relationship where costs are shared.Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn’t…lol THAT’S DATING. There’s no guarantees.
I’ve had “meet for a drink” dates cost anywhere from 20-80 bucks but most initial “meet & greets” come in at around $30-40.00. The cheapest was a $8.00,she ordered a Diet Coke,I got a beer (it was over in 20 minutes…lol).For actual “first dates” it all depends. Ask me how I felt the day I called a woman I had met when I was out and asked her if she could get off work at noon because I just got 2 Bon Jovi tix(cost $400.00)we went to the show and I never saw her again.I felt like sh*t,but again that was my choice(and gamble) to ask her because I wanted to go and I was hoping we would hit it off and see each other again but we didn’t and that’s that. So for Evan and wife,it’s just not a hypothetical sometimes it’s all too real.
starthrower68 148
Ok Evan,
I don’t expect a guy to pay for everything, but I’m also not going to have sex with him outside of commitment so what is appropriate for us to give in return if he’s expecting something? Especially if the first couple of dates mean nothing?
InsertPseudonymHere 149
I long to touch her skin
I ache to see her face
I want to smell her scent anew
I miss her warm embrace
Hold her hand on the shore of a ripple lake
As sunset pastels tinge the sky
Seeing God’s colorful display
Caught in her wondering awestruck eye
Tasting her sweet and gentle kiss
Under heaven’s velvet and gems
Living wholly in that moment
Knowing together once again
Laughing at secret under-blanket tickles, playing, joking, caught in the amazing miracles that are she, and me, and us.
We all have poetry inside of us when we have permission from ourselves to feel it and others can know it when we have their permission to share it.
I hear you, Rob. Best of luck.
Angie 150
@ Starthrower #148
I’ve read that by date #3-4 a woman should (a) nab the check as soon as it hits the table as described by SS in post #143 or (b) prepare a home-cooked meal (doesn’t have to be fancy, my friend is a terrible cook & just did brie&grape sandwiches she got with great bread and cheese from an italian deli nearby) or (c) pick up or pre-book tickets to something like a movie or baseball game so you already have the item.
Also, I don’t think you meant it this way, but I hope in your head you don’t see sex as some kind of collateral that you use in exchange for commitment OR dinner??
I don’t like guys paying for things all the time after a commitment. I’ve seen really negative qualities out of men come from a sense of entitlement with money. I even had a gay male friend who was taking his boyfriend on vacation remark “It’s mostly my money, so I’m deciding what we are doing most of the time.” I think the whole point of Evan’s blog catering towards successful women is… well, I don’t want men to think any part of me can be bought. Not my company, not sex, not commitment, not my participation in something I don’t want to do.
SS 151
@JB 147,
I know it’s tough for a lot of good men out there who are trying to date and show a woman a nice time. It is indeed a gamble, but it can feel like a losing proposition when one seems to always be losing money in such gambles, I’m sure! Especially the Bon Jovi concert.
I can only speak for myself and say that I tried not to make my early dates too expensive. If the guy asked for suggestions, I usually tried to pick ethnic food places where the food was usually cheaper, but still in large portions. I never on my own ordered dessert, but the guy often suggested it and I would agree to share. I rarely got alcoholic drinks either — for safety reasons, but also because I knew they could add an extra $7-$10 to the bill.
One guy who worked late many evenings often suggested breakfast dates, which I found quite refreshing. Cracker Barrel was our spot, and since the only drink there was orange juice (LOL), the bill for those “dates” were about $14-$16.
The only time I had a very expensive first date was when a rich older guy asked me out. I know, I know… I was young and just wanted to see what it was like. He suggested the fancy restaurant and he spent tons of money. None of it was at my suggestion though — I really see the fancy restaurant thing as being in the realm of relationships, not dates.
I guess if I was a guy and trying to date, I would attempt to keep costs down by doing coffee shop meet-ups and actual dates and cheaper (but imaginative) spots. Women who object to these things probably aren’t worth your time, but I would think that a woman with a reasonable mindset about dating would be happy with the effort and the general thought that went into the date moreso than be upset because she couldn’t bleed you dry at some expensive spot.
Angie 152
@JB 147
Your Bon Jovi story makes me cringe a bit. While you obviously have spent a huge variety of money, I can say if someone I didn’t know handed me a $200 concert ticket, that would make me feel massively suspicious and thinking that the man felt the need to impress me by being flashy instead of himself. (Also, I don’t like first dates that are in any environment where you can’t talk, unless it is “Dinner AND… a movie” etc).
I wouldn’t spend that much if I was YOU b/c I would want to know a woman enjoyed my company, and wasn’t just using me for a ticket. A $200 concert ticket is a nicer thing to give someone than a lot of boyfriends will give as a birthday gift and you gave it to a stranger! Blowing a lot of money too early screams either “wants to be a sugar daddy” or “lacks confidence”. That’s me though.
Honestly, I think your strategy is a bit off on a couple things. I don’t think there is anything wrong with the Cheesecake Factory, but I think it’s the man’s responsibility that if he is asking you on a date, he can pick the location. THIS way, you can also control the cost, but you let someone you are meeting for the first time pick for you. Or grab JUST brunch/lunch or JUST drinks or JUST coffee.
At least you are good humored about it!
JB 153
@Angie…the concert was spur of the moment.I got the 15th row tix on Craigslist that morning,I wasn’t really caring about the cost because I wanted to go for me and it was a weekday,I knew she worked from home and could leave at the drop of hat etc….where as anyone else(friends etc..)wouldn’t have been able to get off work in time. It was also a day long type festival(Milwaukee’s Summerfest) so we had plenty of time to walk around and talk,eat etc….before the actual show which was later.Not to mention we talked for 2 hours the night I met her 2 days earlier.Anyway, maybe I was trying to impress a little but the bottom line was I wanted to go to the show either way and I gambled that we would hit it off like men do all the time when we date.Oh and I left out the “kicker” ……she slept the entire ride home over an hour from Milwaukee to Chicago late at night….how classy.Yes, you live and never stop learning…lol
The other time the woman picked the Cheesecake Factory because she knew where it was.It was easier for her to find.It wasn’t a “date”,it was an initial online “meet & greet”.Sometimes(as we men know)there’s no real way to “control” costs once you sit and start chatting and ordering.What am I supposed to say “you can have one “foo foo” drink and an entree or appetizer not exceeding $14.95 ?? …..LOL It’s the fricken Cheescake Factory !! Not exactly “fine dining”…..Puhhhleeezzzzz
@SS…..I don’t always “lose money” in these dating gambles…..lol I’ve “won” many many times.
over a long illustrious career….lol But hey,no one bats 1000 even the best hitters only get a hit 3 out of 10 times they come up to bat.
Venus 154
@ Still Looking,
No, I am not suggesting that a first date must be an expensive affair. I am just saying if you can’t afford to pay for the restaurant, then don’t suggest it. If she suggests something really expensive then counter with an acceptable alternative, diplomatically. Sometimes the simplest outings can be the most fun and revealing. Be creative.
I really don’t think there is anything wrong with dating multiple people if this is a means for finding that long term relationship. It just seems remarkably selfish when these not-good-enough women that you meet on the dating scene are just used to meet your short term needs with unconscionable ease and regularity. This is the picture you painted with the -endless supply of women to date, ready availability of sex, and loving my freedom- comments. But its your life and if there are women who are willing to be party to your game then so be it.
Venus 155
@ Nathan 139
No its not the 1950′s. But a man is still a man, isn’t he?
I am sure you do not want to date a woman who shows up dressed in an orange jumpsuit, work boots and hard hat. You want her to be feminine. By the same token we want our men to be masculine. We want to think that they are leaders and capable of taking care of us (even if we make three times their salary, chair a corporate board, and spends our day making decisions and issuing orders).
Paying for the first date is a small token that allows you score some points (no I don’t mean sex) and places you ahead. Where is the harm in that!? It doesn’t have to be expensive, it just has to be fun.
Venus 156
@ Evan,
Yes, my brother did beat the crap out of a guy in school who messed with me. And my ex (a litigation attorney) did go down stairs in the middle of the night with a baseball bat when he thought someone might be in the house. Low level behaviour, maybe but when our primal senses kick in we act accordingly.
Paying for the first date is a small investment in what could become an amazing future. It creates a positive first impression and paints the guy as someone with class and upbringing. Quibbiling over who takes the check, leaves a bad taste for both parties. If a woman INSISTS on paying her half, I think that says something about her as well.
Venus 157
@ Jadafisk 142
That wasn’t intended to be taken seriously. I was just messing with SL.
Evan Marc Katz 158
Venus, please don’t post 4 consecutive times. It’s in bad blog form. And please, for the last time, don’t misinterpret what I’ve said. You will not find one single post where I’ve ever said that a man shouldn’t pay for a first date. You will find plenty of evidence for me advocating that men should pay. However let’s not pretend that it’s something that she should want to do for every strange woman, in perpetuity, with no set of expectations. That’s fantasyland. I’ve provided a valid rationale for why it’s unfair for men to always pay for everything. And I predict that your refusal to listen to logic and acknowledge the male point of view will cause you considerable trouble in dating and relationships.
Venus 159
Apologies with the multiple posts (if possible, the administrator can combine them into one or the last three can be deleted)
I have not misrepresented what you said. I simply answered your question.
As for your prediction, I don’t have problems maintaining a relationship, I was married for 17 years and that lasted primarily because of my input. After my marriage I was in one long term relationship that lasted two years. My problem is meeting someone who is worth the time and effort.
I actually listen very well, but that does not mean that I will agree with everything that is being said. Where my discussion with SL is concerned I think its best that he and I simply agree to disagree.
Angie 160
@JB 153
I hear what you are saying, although I have experienced the opposite! I had a on online “meet and greet” once, where a guy asked me to meet him around 6pm (I forget the exact time, but it was in the dinner hour) at a restaurant (not a coffee shop, not a bar, a restaurant).
As we were looking at the menu, he asked if I wanted to split an appetizer. I agreed, and when the waiter came we ordered a drink apiece and the appetizer. The waiter asked if we needed any dinner recommendations, and the guy said “Nah, this is all we’re going to do” and handed over his menu.
The waiter actually rolled his eyes at me! This guy actually called to ask me out again, and I said no. I think you can definitely “control costs” to some extent. Coffee shop / Ice Cream Parlour / Bowling or Mini Golf… SO many cheap ways to spend an hour or two!
Helen 161
I’m not sure how this discussion morphed from singletondom to who should pay on a first date,
but here is my thought on that topic: The person who did the inviting should pay, whether male or female. It’s common good manners. You (the asker) asked for this person’s company; you asked for him or her to take time out of his/her busy schedule to have a meal with you. Regardless of whether it leads to anything more, you should offer to foot the entire bill.
As a married professional lass, I regularly invite coworkers to business meals and offer to pay the entire bill. Sometimes the other party lets me do this; other times s/he offers to pay half or even the entire bill.
I recognize that it becomes more complicated when both parties mutually agree to meet. In those cases, perhaps the check should be split or each person should pay the corresponding individual portion. But here I’ll agree with Evan’s advice to men: men do make a better impression on women if they offer to pay the whole bill even in these more mutual arrangements. I’ll go even further – this holds true regardless of whether it’s a date or a professional meal. If a male colleague invites others out to a business meal and doesn’t offer to pay, he is regarded as not being very high on the totem pole. Paying for others in business meals is in some ways a power play. Make of that what you will…
Stephanie 162
if basically you are fucking a guy in exchange for an expensive meal at a restaurant, front row seats at a basketball game, or a private tour of his yacht with champagne and brie, then you are a high-class hooker who should work for an escort service agency. Congratulations on your new career choice. By the way, expecting a man to pay for a couple glasses of red wine or a Subway sandwich hardly qualifies as greedy.
nathan 163
“I am sure you do not want to date a woman who shows up dressed in an orange jumpsuit, work boots and hard hat. You want her to be feminine. By the same token we want our men to be masculine. We want to think that they are leaders and capable of taking care of us (even if we make three times their salary, chair a corporate board, and spends our day making decisions and issuing orders). ” Actually, I’m not terribly worried about such a masculine and feminine breakdown. I don’t believe in such fixed dichotomies, nor does my behavior reflect that. This morning, I lead a meeting as the president of a non-profit board. This afternoon, I listened and gently supported a friend. You could split those two activities into masculine and feminism spheres, or you could recognize that in we have the opportunity – in a more liberated world- to let people be whole, instead of trying to act from a gendered role all the time.
Some women might dismiss me. That’s fine. I’m not interested in catering to the traditional roles – even though I can certainly act like a “traditional man” when it’s called for. But I still sit around and wonder about all these expectations many seem to have about both men and women acting in certain ways. Women (and some men) have been right pushing to break down patriarchy for decades. And yet, when it comes to intimate relationships, most of us seem to struggle to let go of the old ways of being, which were primarily determined by a system of male domination. Instead of working towards more equal and fluid relationships, so many want men and women to mostly act out the old patterns.
So, when a woman chooses to pursue more often, she’s looked upon unfavorably. Or when a man demonstrates more traditionally feminine traits, he’s looked upon unfavorably. It’s interesting to me. Interesting to see how calls for social change are blended with desires to keep things the same.
Honestly, if a woman is attractive to me as a person, her showing up in boots and a hard hat isn’t going impact that.
And who pays? I think in the beginning it really should be about who comes up with the activity idea. Again, I’m all about sharing the ownership of a relationship right from the beginning – as that’s what I want the relationship to be all along.
Part of the problem with expecting one side or the other to do most of the pursing, put forth most of the effort, and take on most of the expense is that it easily can lead to wanting something in return. Be it sex, or control, or just some kind of steady companionship, I think it’s hard to let go of wanting something to come back your way if your putting in so much from your end. And I say that while also believing that it’s not healthy to frame relationships like this. Men, for example, shouldn’t expect sex, regardless of how much they spend on dinners and whatnot.
So, the way I see it, the less imbalances developed in the beginning, the more likely you will have a more balanced, shared relationship going forward. But I’m also aware that plenty of folks aren’t interested in this kind of shared relationship when it gets down to it. They might say they are, but actually they hope for something else.
starthrower68 164
@ Angie #150,
I probably should have worded that better. No, I don’t think sex is collateral. Where I was coming from is that you don’t know if a man will appreciate your gesture to help with a bill or if he will feel emasculated. I understand most of the guys who post on here are ok with it, but I’m not dating the guys on here. I like your suggestion about a home-cooked meal, but that idea has also been shot down on this blog as it makes a woman come off as if she’s trying to show him what a domestic goddess she is in hopes he’ll want to seal the deal.
Margo 165
@Evan, my post about paying for dates was directed at Still Looking’s (too tired to reference it) post where he talks about how he feels a woman should offer to split the check on a $75 dinner date (first date) when she knows in her heart that she isn’t interested in seeing the man again. No, I don’t think in that scenario a woman should be obligated to split the check. Assuming that the man asked her out, he should pay for the meal and both of them should enjoy themselves.
My philosophy on who pays for dates is actually the same as yours. I expect the man to pay for the first 3 dates at least. Although I do offer to split the check on the 3rd date. That sounds fair, doesn’t it? If he can’t afford the first 2 dates, then he can’t afford to date.
Margo 166
@Nathan 139. Yes, Nathan. I expect a man to be both. Men can actually be chivalrous and not be male-chauvinist pigs at the same time. I will accept no less.
@Evan #141, I’ll remind you. You said so yourself that men should pay for the 1st few dates.
If I were a man, I would be ashamed of myself if I couldn’t do that. And wny should he expect nothing in return? What is there for him to expect?? A woman can experience something with or about him on the second date that changes her mind about seeing him again. That is her right. She owes him nothing because he paid for a couple of dates. If he conducted himself decently on those dates than a “thank you” is in order. If she doesn’t want to see him again, the decent thing to do is to tell him and not just disappear.
Stephanie #162, agreed.
Angie 167
@Starthrower #164
If you actually ARE a domestic goddess or just make a really mean (insert your specialty here), I say go for it. Someone on this blog will shoot down every idea someone else suggests. I think it’s too much to do lobster or anything fancy, but a really nice pasta/garlic bread/salad dinner or some nice sandwiches and chips out out on a picnic are nice.
My favorite dates are always the ones where I think the other person is revealing a positive aspect of themselves… cooking, hiking prowess, their favorite bar, etc.
Margo 168
At Nathan #163, I agree with what you are saying concerning the concept of equal participation in dating/relationships, but only to a certain degree. I think you have taken the concept too far.
Men and women behave differently in many ways due to innate characteristics that are reinforced by societal influences. This isn’t going to change. Like I said in an earlier post, men are born with the urge to protect, provide and take the lead in a love relationships. If a man doesn’t do these things, he’s not really a man.
If he fails to do any of these things, it’s akin to the woman dating a gay man that has chosen to play the female role. So then, everything can’t be equal or there is something wrong. One of the things that will happen is that the woman, assuming she’s mentally healthy, will quickly lose respect for the man.
Therefore, if a woman and a man earn the same income and have the same amount of expenses, and have been dating for a while, yeah, they could share in meals. If the woman makes significantly more money than the man, yeah, they can share in the meals. However, if the man earns a high income. like yourself who is the president of a company, and the woman works as a waitress, he ought to be footing the bill most of the time. First, it’s in his nature to do so. Second, he can afford it.
So that no one gets the wrong idea about moi, I will say that I don’t care how much a man makes. If all he can afford to take me to is Kentucky Fried Chicken, I’m going to enjoy that and be thankful. Men should actually do that instead of taking a woman to a restaurant where he can’t afford what’s on the menu, then asking her to split the check.
Margo 169
It will be a sad day for me if I ever wake up and realize that either of my sons have turned into lazy, selfish, non-chivalrous men who expect the woman to pursue them, split every check down the middle, and open her own car door.
Lisa 170
Rob, your post on being alone – Best ever.
Ruby 171
On the subject of paying for dates, I’m surprised no one has mentioned this: in my experience at least, men are generally more than happy to pay for the the early dates when they are interested and want to impress you. Wanting to split the bill early on has been, at least for me, a sign of low interest on the man’s part. Or extreme cheapness.
nathan 172
Margo, I really don’t think anyone can say for certain how much of gender differences falls on the side of biological differences, and how much is from social conditioning. And when you throw in all those people who really don’t fit the gender binary, then it gets even muddier.
You say someone “isn’t a man” if they don’t lead, protect, etc. That’s your view. But lots of men don’t fit the mold you desire, and until someone is able to prove that it’s biologically determined that men must do X and women must do Y, all your comment can be is a preference. It’s fine to have a preference; we all do. But it’s not a fact about men.
Oh, and I’m the board president of a small non-profit. I don’t make a cent from all the work I do there, lol!
Ruby, I can understand you’re experiences around men wanting to split the bills early on. It’s probably true that some men who are not footing the bill aren’t terribly interested. And I don’t blame any woman for wondering about a man who appears to be tight with money.
But I’d like to ask you, and all the women on here who are saying men should pay for everything early on, where it is that you got that idea? Have you ever thought about where those views came from or how they developed? Or that perhaps, in this age where women and men are mostly both in the workplace (at least in the U.S.), that some of this might need to be reconsidered?
It just surprises me – I’ll say it again – how with all the effort to shift towards a society more based in gender equality, that so few seem willing to look deeply at the narratives underlying their most intimate relationships.
Lisa M. 173
@Margo #169: I fear that sad time may already be here. It seems our society have become overrun by betas and psuedo-alpha males. And, it is only going to get worse.
SS 174
Margo, I really understand where you’re coming from. Venus too. I was raised this way as was my brother. Most of the men I’ve encountered have held these values and are quite honestly, proud of the fact that they do… so again, it is difficult for me to understand a perspective that seems to equate such values with being close to a “traditional” male-chauvinist Neanderthal pig.
Now, I do believe that certain traits are the result of nurture, and not nature, so I’m glad that in today’s society, women and men are not completely restrained by particular gender norms. At the same time, biology is biology, and there are certain traits that often go along with gender — and no matter how much one is instructed otherwise, there is frequently an innate pull to fulfill those particular roles.
I was immersed in feminism and feminist thought when I was in college and still appreciate the general spirit of the movement and what it accomplished. I used to approach men all the time for dates and pay.
All that being said, once I let go of that learned “we’re all equal” ideology, I found that I much preferred and enjoyed it when the man did the pursuing, paying for dates, fixing the stuff around the house (and car), etc., even though I was perfectly capable and willing to do all of the above. And yes, I did really appreciate it when a man protected me, whether with his brawn or brains… and the men enjoyed doing the protecting.
I’m not saying people are wrong to do otherwise in their relationships, but I can’t just act like the women who do find themselves fitting best into the “old-fashioned” gender roles are somehow wrong or misguided or backwards.
Sayanta 175
Nathan
I’m enjoying your comments; you do seem very enlightened. More so than a lot of women I know.
But I do think that a certain amount of ‘wining and dining’ is necessary if a man wants to impress a woman. This doesnt mean 75 dollar dinners- a brunch at a diner isn’t so expensive.
I meet professional men who ask me for coffee dates. Coffee?? Just screams, I have no desire to put any effort to impress you whatsoever.
Ruby 176
Nathan #172
Of course, i’ve thought about where my views come from and how they’ve developed. Years ago, I’d even ask men out, because really, why shouldn’t a woman be able to do that if she likes a guy? Unfortunately, that never worked, even if men will “say” they are okay with it. I’ve also asked why women are still earning 75 cents to every dollar a man earns. Or why women with more education still make less money than men with less education. Lots of social mores are deeply ingrained in our culture. In some ways, it’s easier to keep things as they are with courtship: men pursue and women respond. At least it’s clear that if a man likes you, he will pursue you, and you won’t have to chase after him. It muddies the waters when we make excuses for why men aren’t pursuing us or treating us with respect.
Lisa M. 177
SS #174: “I was immersed in feminism and feminist thought when I was in college and still appreciate the general spirit of the movement and what it accomplished.”
I was like this when I was college and I also appreciate most of what was accomplished by the movement. But I never approached guys or paid for dates, although, I saw nothing wrong with doing so, at the time. It took me a while to reclaim and appreciate my womanhood. I also realized that I couldn’t/shouldn’t do everything a man does because the end results won’t be the same. I know now that men really aren’t interested in women who attempt to behave like them. It doesn’t exactly endear us to them.
Lastly, I am really put-off by men who expect me to do the heavy lifting, especially when we first meet (i.e. expecting me initiate the first form of contact, deciding where we go on a date and so on). I have a serious aversion to men like this and I don’t see them as real men at all and find them to be a colossal waste of my time.
Helen 178
Ruby #176, I’m surprised by your comment, given that in past posts we have agreed on almost everything even when we’re not directly corresponding. It sounds in this comment as though you’re giving up – the status quo isn’t going to change and there’s nothing we can do to change it. Not so!
Yes, it sucks that women are still earning 77 cents to every man’s dollar. But that’s much better than it was just a decade ago, and worlds better than it was 5 decades ago. It will only keep getting better as we keep asserting ourselves – in the workplace AND in the mating game.
I think Nathan #172 had a good point when he insinuated that all of these themes are tied together: how we act in the workplace and how we act in relationships and in other walks of life. WE HAVE THE POWER TO CHANGE THE STATUS QUO: not all at once, but enough to make a difference in our lifetimes. Part of the reason there is still a gap in women’s and men’s earnings is because we’re not asking for more – higher starting salaries and raises. In the dating game, many of us are conditioned not to ask at all, but to wait for the man to ask. What’s wrong with making the first move? You just have to know what you want and be confident and optimistic enough to go for it.
This idea that we must always wait for men to initiate hurts us not only in the mating game, but also in the workplace and life in general. It’s a position of passivity that puts us at a disadvantage and ultimately blocks us from living our fullest lives. Sure, rejection can hurt, but we must learn to develop thicker skins.
Sayanta #175, if you put yourself in the men’s shoes, would you still disdain them? I don’t think that asking you for coffee is “screaming” anything: it’s just a low-risk, casual approach so that if either of you feels uncomfortable, at least it won’t be an hours-long date. If either of you likes each other, you can ask the other out for a longer date. Seems pretty sensible, actually.
SS 179
<i>What’s wrong with making the first move?</i>
Nothing, but what if you are a woman who doesn’t want to make the first move? Women who don’t want to do this should not be pushed into doing so.
Just looking back at my dating experience, I was hurt MORE when I made the first move versus when I waited. Making the first move, every single time, resulted in me finding a lukewarm guy who went along with my interest because he was flattered… and then he went and asked women out that he DID want.
So I said no more of that… and what do you know, the men who were interested stepped up and made the first move. I went from no relationships lasting past three months over a 10-year period in which I “made the first move,” to two serious relationships in three years in which the man acted first.
And no, I don’t think you can compare “waiting” in the dating realm to how women should or shouldn’t behave in the workplace. It is not rejection so much that concerns me as it is making moves that have the best result.
For me, making the first move NEVER resulted in me getting the type of relationship I wanted, because most times, the man simply was not interested in me and that’s why he never made the first move.
Angie 180
@Sayanta #176
I will agree w ith you on this, but I think if it’s someone you met online and want to see who they are in person, this is a low-investment date (although I agree, so is a $20-25 brunch).
@Nathan #172
If it is someone you have already met face-to-face, you should want to demonstrate you are a GENEROUS person. Generosity is something you can demonstrate by planning the outing and picking up the check early on.
Men should have expectations as well. I’ve spied on a men’s love advice column and the term “Flexible Giver” has been thrown around as the ideal woman. (google it)… If you feel the woman is too high maintenance and demanding, stop seeing her. Different guys want different things from a woman depending how “Alpha” they are. But I do appreciate when a man is confident enough to show me a good time without letting the restaurant,etc do the “work” for him. I’m impressed by good character (generosity/confidence) and not flash.
I think people are also confusing confidence with leadership. Just be confident you can show me a good time.
Kate Candy 181
I think women should not expect a guy to pay. Because we live in a time where women are/should be financially self-sufficient. If you don’t expect the guy to pay, then you can communicate more efficiently with the guy about date activity choices. He’s asked you out or you’ve asked him out. Whichever way it happened, you are two people who are going to meet to decide if you want to spend time together, perhaps romantically. Start the communication early: “I’m feeling flush, how would you feel about going to Chez Pricey?” is a way to start a conversation that’s based in the reality of each other’s situations. What this indicates to the guy is that sometimes I like to go out to nice places, but I realize that these places cost money and I put these sorts of outings into my budget. If the guy doesn’t want to go to Chez Pricey then it appears that he’s not cooperative or doesn’t like to spend money. These revelations show more to me than whether he will foot the bill. I don’t see what possible justification a woman has for thinking a man should pay. The idea that his paying a check shows that he wants to, or can, take care of you is fallacious.
I decided this because I was engaged to a man who insisted on paying checks. I was in grad school; he was a professional. He sent me flowers that were the envy of everyone who saw them. I remember the delivery guy saying, “Well, you’re loved.” And I thought, “Am I?’ I thought this because the guy gave wonderful gifts, took me to fabulous restaurants, but sometimes didn’t pick up the phone when I called. In fact, he didn’t like to talk to me on Sundays because that was his day of rest. Odd, I thought. (We lived in different states.)
For graduation, he paid the rest of my grad school bills, flew me to Paris, bought me an engagement ring in Antwerp, took me back to Paris where he proposed on an island in the Seine.
I moved across the country to live with him in his beautiful house. The bills came in for the week in Europe: $10,000 (not including airfare). No problem, I thought. Until I found out that he was paying his mortgage for the beautiful house with credit cards. He had no pension, no savings, nothing. The creditors began calling every morning. One day, while Boyfriend was on a business trip, the electricity was turned off. When I went to the grocery store, the credit cards were all maxed out. So, of course, I got a job and started trying to put together a plan towards financial recovery. He wasn’t on board. He wanted the fantasy. One day, he took me to see a million dollar condo. We didn’t have money for lunch, literally, but he started weaving a plan to get a loan to buy this property. I stared at him in disbelief.
The day I left him, I treated myself to lunch. I paid with his debit card. The check was under $9 and I made a vow to myself that it would be the last time I used someone else’s debit or credit card. Oh, another thing, we went into couples counseling. He commented that the only reason I was with him was because of his salary. (I’d been grocery shopping, paying for groceries, cooking and cleaning for months.)
It is difficult to be self-sufficient. However, it allows better choices. Instead of deciding that a guy is great because he has a certain job or pays for the date, one can take time to determine whether the guy is someone who will communicate and adapt, which is more important than getting a free meal or lots of expensive trinkets.
Evan Marc Katz 182
For anyone who wants clarification on masculine/feminine/paying/leadership/sex…this is all in Why He Disappeared. In short:
Men should ask out women because that’s what we’ve all been taught societally. It’s largely INEFFECTIVE for women to ask out men, since men know it’s their job and will take action if they’re attracted. The only exception: really shy, awkward guys. You CAN ask them out.
Men should pay on the first few dates because it’s EFFECTIVE for them to demonstrate generosity – not because it’s fair, and certainly not because they want to.
Women should kiss men when they make the first move because it’s EFFECTIVE in letting him know you’re interested. Rejecting his advances makes him feel like an unattractive loser.
Men should follow up after the first date to make plans again. Women who take the initiative are taking his job away from him, not allowing him to win you over, and removing any sense of mystery or excitement that he has in pursuing you. In a perfect world, it would be great if you could say, “I like you: I can’t wait to see you again. What are you doing tomorrow, Jim?” In the REAL world, it just makes you look desperate. Again, effective vs ineffective.
You all can feel free to argue whether you think this is fair or not. I don’t care if it’s fair. I’m only telling you that it’s real and that it’s accurate. Ignore this at your own peril.
Love,
Evan
nathan 183
Angie and a few others,
Generosity, in my view, is much larger than paying for a few meals – or even paying for the lion’s share of everything. Plenty of men toss money around to impress women, but in the end, have little more to offer in a relationship. What about someone who listens well? How about a man who volunteers in the community? Or the man who kindly holds a door open for someone else, anyone else? Or the man who frequently helps out his parents or siblings?
We have been socialized to equal spending money with all sorts of things, including romantic interest, level of commitment, and generosity. The way I see it, money is only one way to demonstrate that, and often is a fairly shallow indicator.
I have no problem paying for dinner, especially if I’m the one suggesting it. But it really doesn’t represent a level of interest on my part, any more than coffee represents a level of disinterest. Many women I have gone on dates have suggested meeting for coffee. I also have suggested the same. It’s about having something to do to meet each other and see if you have some actual interest – as opposed to whatever you’ve conjured up in your head about the person based on hanging out at a party, casual conversations at work, or some e-mails and phones from an online dating site.
SS 184
Evan… I completely agree with that summation.
I think we start going in circles when we start trying to debate what’s fair or unfair and why men shouldn’t have to do this or women should have to do that. Some things just ARE… whether any of us like it or not.
Of course there will be exceptions, but in general, your summation accurately represents the American dating experience for most men and women.
Lisa M. 185
A few months ago, a female coworker told me that she was introduced to a guy her sister-in-law thought she’d get along well with and would be a good match for her. They started communicating viva text and had exchanged pix of one another before meeting face to face. After meeting with him for dinner one night, she told me that she didn’t think that there was a connection, so I asked her what did she think happened that may have caused her to think that he wasn’t interested? Her response was that he didn’t like the way she looked. That didn’t make sense to me because she text him a picture of herself in real-time and he wanted to meet her in person. So, I asked her to tell me exactly what transpired on the date and as I listened to her giving me all the details of their date and as I was listening there were two things that she did that almost made me choke on my gum; 1. She offered to pay for half of the dinner and; 2. As they were leaving the restaurant she opened the door for him so that he could walk out ahead of her then afterwards he remarked, “You are just like a guy”.
But she couldn’t see that this behavior was the actual reason he stopped communicating with her.
nathan 186
In a practical sense, I think most of what Evan points out in #182 makes total sense. 90-95% of the time, I have been the one to initiate contact, do the asking out, suggest somewhere to go on a first date, and follow up after the date. If I waited for the kinds of cultural questioning and changes to become more commonplace, I’d probably have been alone most of this time.
But Helen’s comments at 178 point at exactly the links I’m trying to make. The inequalities in other areas of life are directly correlated to what’s happening in our romantic lives. So, the way I see it, it’s damn well worth considering these things, even if, for example, how I act while dating has to be more of mixture than I’d prefer it to be.
Lisa’s example above points out one of a variety of gendered pitfalls women face while dating. Men have to clean their closets out as well around all of these issues, but many still want the slightly above helpless centerfold hanging on his every word and action.
It’s very easy to see a women like Lisa’s co-worker understandably getting frustrated with men rejecting her for holding doors, offering to help pay, and other such gestures, and deciding she better act more like “what they probably want her be.” But will doing so really attract the kind of partner she wants to be with? I don’t know for sure, but I’m definitely skeptical.
And I certainly can put on an alpha male act for awhile, exuding confidence, control, protectiveness, and the rest, but I seriously doubt that this will bring me the kind of woman I want to be with long term.
The problem, in my opinion, is that too often, in order to have someone in our lives – especially a someone who isn’t a great match – we end up twisting ourselves into something we don’t want to be, putting on a show the other expects for awhile, and then we wonder a month, six months, a year down the road why we’re so damned unhappy with the situation.
One final thing – it’s easy to believe that the way things are is just how it’s always been, and that we have to accept it. But nothing stays the same forever, not even dating. I made the quip above about the 1950′s, but dating today rarely looks like dating did in the 1950s. Some things linger, but a lot has changed.
Kate Candy 187
Evan, I know you wrote the book on this and everything, but your comments do not jibe with what I’ve seen in the real world, as in, women who asked the guy out, made the first move, slept with the guy on date #1 and are now married to said guy. I don’t think women should expect men to pay. I do think women should thank the guy if he offers to pay, and then I think they should reciprocate. Or not. It all depends on what the woman feels comfortable with, but I would hope that she could find a charming way to communicate her expectations. It appears that you disagree, but the statement: “men know it’s their job…..” is too absolute in a world where women say they don’t want a man to pay, or to open the door, or to take their number. The men get mixed messages. I don’t think men know what their job is anymore. I thought everyone knew that men pay for the first date and then I ran into a man who didn’t. Nice guy, clueless. But when things were communicated, he responded.
As for #185, there might be many other reasons that the guy stopped talking to your friend. Opening the door and paying half will not kill a guy’s interest. In the same way that expecting a guy to pay and open the door will not stoke his interest.
Ruby 188
Helen #178
Glad to hear that we have been in agreement on most things! I’ve thought so too!
Believe me, I am not passive in the workplace or in other areas of my life. But dating is different, although it too, has changed from the days when a man came courting by visiting with a lady in her front parlor. But i fail to see what the point of pursuing a man who isn’t really interested is. I can ask him out, and he might even go, but at the end of the date, I’m no closer to a relationship than i was before i started. My experience has been that men who are interested make their intentions known. No matter how confident and optimistic I might be, it’s not going to make a man who isn’t sufficiently attracted to me feel differently.
On a dating site, I will contact a man I find attractive and interesting. If he doesn’t respond, or his response is lukewarm, I let it go. If we go out a few times and he doesn’t follow up, I move on.
It still hurts anyway if someone I’m interested in doesn’t feel the same way, but at least I’m not trying to force something that has no chance of going anywhere. I’m moving on to greener pastures, so why not save my confidence and optimism for someone more deserving?
And as far as a man paying for early dates goes, it’s not about looking for someone to take care of me, it’s more about gauging a guy’s level of interest. I do offer money during the first few dates (usually refused), or will offer to pick up the tab for something smaller like our drinks.
Gem 189
1. She offered to pay for half of the dinner and; 2. As they were leaving the restaurant she opened the door for him so that he could walk out ahead of her then afterwards he remarked, “You are just like a guy”.
But she couldn’t see that this behavior was the actual reason he stopped communicating with her.
The fact that he commented that she was “just like a guy” says it all. What man wants to date a woman who is “like a guy”? How could that have escaped her?
Many of my early dates consist of dinner and then a second location for a change of scenery and an after dinner drink. By date 3 or 4 I offer to pick up the tap at the second stop. I have never in the last 5 years of dating, had a man allow me to do so. I like traditional, old school masculine men so I’m quite happy about that. But I am a caretaker too, so while I don’t whip out my wallet or taken up on the offer, I cook, send food home, or invite the man over and already have take out paid for and on the table.
When I’ve been dating a man for awhile and spending nights in with dinner and a movie is happening more frequently, I’m serving drinks, snacks, and food all on my dime so it evens out. I like more traditional men and I’m glad there are plenty of em’ still out there.
Jadafisk 190
185 – How much of a connection did said co-worker feel, though? Did she like the guy? Or was it a case where she merely wouldn’t have minded if he liked her?
Josh 191
Evan you say that “Women maintain closer friendships throughout life” I think thats BS. I’ve found that woman once theyve settled into a relationship are more likely to focus their attention on their mate and children, thereby losing touch with friends. I see this everyday as my male mates and I from grammer school through university still get together quite often.
On the otherhand my female friends once they’ve found a bf or husband seem to fall off the map only to reappear when they break up. One of my Ex’s, I had to plead to go out and have a girls night out. Otherwise she’d be happy just to spend her time soley with me.
Angie 192
#185 Lisa
I don’t think “offering” to pay for half of dinner is masculine. It’s polite. It wasn’t an “official” date-date. It was a setup, and there were mutual friends involved.
If he said she was just like a guy, that does say it all though.
nathan #183
All of those are good things. I don’t think I’ve said otherwise. A first date is just your opportunity to show generosity (instead of stinginess), and I suppose the female trait demonstrated would be gratitude (instead of entitled).
If you see my post #160 – I felt that man had deceived me. I wouldn’t have dared to order more than just the appetizer imposed upon me (though, I had come prepared for dinner), b/c I am not an entitled person. But the guy I went out with certainly didn’t appear very generous.
Lisa M. 193
My coworker is an “Alpha female” and so am I. There was a time when I would have offered to pay half too (but I have never opened doors for men). I’ve learned over the years that there were men who were not very receptive to my not so feminine behavior at times. Anytime a woman reaches for her wallet on a date it’s a masculine move, period. And if a man asked me to take out my wallet, especially, on a first date…we’re done (reeks of feminine energy).
Once I dropped the “I have to show him that I’m self-sufficient or that I’m not a gold-digger” crap and started fully embracing my femininity all the confusion ended. The guy pays. He asked me out, therefore, it’s on him and when the check comes I just act as if it’s not there. I just continue to do whatever I was doing until it’s paid.
@Jadafisk
They only communicated with for a week before they met face to face. She thought he was very attractive from the pix he sent her. I don’t think it was really a big deal when he stopped contacting her but I did mention to her that when dating she should try to be more feminine and her response was “A guy should accept me as I am because I don’t think I should have to change for them.” Well, I don’t see anything wrong with a woman adjusting her behavior somewhat you can still be an “Alpha female”. Although, being one may make you quite successful in your career but oftentimes doesn’t translate into success with men.
Victoria 194
I think this article is missing a key component: money. Men are seen as the providers traditionally, not to sound sexist. Women tend to have the option to marry and become housewives if they choose to give up their career and raise the children (not to say that men cannot stay home with the kids, while wife works, but this is not the norm) . This is quite acceptable in society. That said, men are typically the financial providers: they come out of pocket for dates, dinners, and if they are the sole provider for a family, they have to be at a stage in their career where they feel as men, that they are financially stable and can provide for a family. A lot of men identify with the ability to provide for their family. Wouldn’t you be more careful about who you choose to commit to (the child custody and divorce implications usually err on the side of the mother), if you had these kinds of financial responsibilities?
Evan Marc Katz 195
@Josh and @KateCandy: Because one woman asked out her man and got married and because one guy is exceptionally close to his friends doesn’t mean anything. In general, men ask women out and women are closer with their friends. Exceptions don’t disprove the rule. You understand that my job is to give the rules, not the exceptions, right?
SS 196
Lisa M., I think you are my long-lost twin sister!
I can relate to so much of what you’re saying, your general personality type and the resulting changes that happened when you stopped taking on what traditionally has been the man’s role in dating.
nathan 197
Angie, My point above was that generosity is more than just “show me you’ll spend some money on me,” and that just because a guy pays for a few dates, doesn’t really mean crap about his overall level of generosity of stinginess. But I also totally get that the easiest or most obvious way to demonstrate generosity is to pay for dinner or a movie or whatever the activity is.
—–
A comment to everyone
A female friend of mine just commented to me about an article she was reading on a blog about stay at home fathers. Basically, she was pointing out how even the very concept upsets or confuses a lot of people, but it’s happening out there, and I for one think that this ties right into the current conversation.
A fair number of commenters here, for various reasons, want to maintain or go along with more traditional gender roles in relationships in the beginning. And yet, the general societal conditions are less supportive today for those roles than even a generation ago. Economically, it’s much more likely to have shared responsibility for finances. It’s kind of foolish, in my view, for men to identify too strongly with a notion of being the provider given that they probably aren’t going to be the sole provider, and that it might be the case that, due to job loss or downsizing, might have to step into a different role – like being the main child caregiver.
This is just one of the ways in which I find this adherence to traditional roles, when coupled with how things are in the larger society, a bit troubling in the long run. In the short run, it might not matter at all. You can date playing those roles all you want, but once you start sharing finances, or raise children (if you have children), dealing with job losses, etc. – those old roles start to feel stilted.
I have watched a hell of a lot of men in their 40s and 50s suffer greatly because they held on to the traditional ways of being “the man in the relationship,” only to find that they get laid off and loose the “provider” role, or their partner decides they want a man who is more of a sharer, listener, etc. and leaves.
So, in my view, it makes more sense for men and women to be a little more critical of these traditional roles, and their desire for them (if they have that desire). I don’t expect some things to really shift anytime soon, and I know as a man, I’ll probably need to do more of the initial steps. But when I hear men and women saying things like “I want a traditional such and such,” I think “really? and how about 10 years from now, when your economic circumstances have changed, or you’ve grown sick of playing those roles?”
Lisa M. 198
Hey SS!
I have been saying the same thing about you, as well. I really enjoy reading your POV on dating, especially, since they are my exact views. LOL!
I have to admit, I have been holding back a little, though. There seems to be a lot pushback concerning this topic.
Kate Candy 199
Hi Evan, I understand everyone’s wish to find rules in the dating situation, but, if I understand the word correctly, a “rule” is a mandate authored by a holder of power, like the government. Dating is far more complicated than that and no one holds the power, the power is negotiated. Evan, you offer suggestions that are wonderful and insightful; however, they are not rules. When I was talking about women asking men out, I was not talking about one woman, I’m talking about the women I know who are married. In ALL of these cases, ALL of the women did not wait for the guys to take action. In my life, I have not waited for guys to take action. What my friends and I do is CHARMINGLY convince a guy that he is the lucky one that we have chosen. The key is how it’s done. I’ve had countless men propose, and that’s not really brag, that’s just that before I was 25, every guy I went out with, proposed, which I though was insane. They proposed because I am unique. The woman whose profile you helped write who is featured on one of your links, the woman who has a BA in weaving or tapestry and does interior design (I’m totally trying to remember something I read a couple of weeks ago) is engaging and attractive because she’s unique. Uniqueness breeds confidence and with confidence, you become charming and everyone wants charming.
The reason why I’m making a point of this is because women should not be fearful of making a wrong move. The woman who was told she’s just like a guy, I would have said, “Thank you, but you should see me throw, that would change your mind.” Smile, laugh, hair toss. It’s all about the flirt.
I love this blog. I learn a lot. And although I’m man-friendly and rather popular, I could always learn. After reading this blog, I’ve become even more popular. Thanks, Evan. But I know that you wouldn’t want women to think that they have to be rigid to achieve their goals. Embrace yourself, embrace your date and then decide your own course. If that course leads you to paying or jumping their bones, fine. But, also, walk away if it’s not going your way! Love, Kate Candy.
helene 200
There seems to be something that is being overlooked here regarding men “paying” for dates… and that is the ENORMOUS expense that dating incurs for women! Hair, shoes, makeup,nails dresses, handbags,lingerie, taxis everywhere cos you can’t walk to a date in cute “date” shoes…. So, men pay for the dinner – I think they’re getting off lightly! They turn up in their work shoes and business suit or basically in their normal clothes, maybe have a quick shave and a splash of cologne before they arrive – and that’s it! In no sense do I ever feel that its “unfair” if a man pays for the date, even if we don’t see each other again – its cost me a heck of a lot of money too!
Also,we do these things to display our attactiveness as a mate – I generally feel if I were to reach for the check I’m actually depriving a man of the opportunity to display his generosity and attractiveness, and also I feel he might take it as a criticism – like I’m implying he’s so mean or broke he won’t be paying for the dinner.
Women spend a lot of money BEFORE the date, and a man might rightfully be less than impressed if we turned up in no make up, flat shoes and a sweat suit – equally, the date is the moment for the man to shine by displaying his attentiveness and generosity and capacity as a provider by symbolically providing for us.
Of course, once you’re in a settled relationship its different – I don’t spend hours on my hair on a daily basis, and he doesn’t pay for all the food!
Sayanta 201
Helen
Hmm.. I don’t know, I’ve showed up for dates in jeans, an old navy sweater and no makeup. And you know what the funny thing is? Those guys expressed more interest than the ones I’ve gotten all dolled up for!
nathan 202
Helene,
I hear you about all this. I personally am not attracted to a lot of “dolling up” to use Sayanta’s term. I may not be in the norm there, but it would be interesting to hear what other men think about it. Men who expect women to put out all the stops in terms of looks probably should be more willing to put out more on their end financially.
To be honest, though, none of that has been my experience. Most of the women I have gone on dates, and/or been in relationships with haven’t, from what I have seen, gone out to buy the perfect date shoes, make up, dresses, handbags, etc.
But you know, I’m a lower middle class (in terms of salary) guy living in the Midwest who has dated mostly lower middle class or working class women. It’s been rare that I have been with someone who has enough extra income to spend a bunch of money on getting dolled up for a date with me.
So, I think it might be that economic class differences are playing a role in how different commenters here are considering things.
Gem 203
Nathan, #197
But when I hear men and women saying things like “I want a traditional such and such,” I think “really? and how about 10 years from now, when your economic circumstances have changed, or you’ve grown sick of playing those roles?”
I’m one of those women attracted to a more traditional man. Look, I am a strong, tough, quick-witted, savy, gal who has run two businesses. I fully expect to work until I retire, even if I marry again, and contribute my share in the realm of finances, decision making, home projects, being there for my man to lean on when he needs me, and being a full partner in all ways. In my feminine way.
Because, in regards to sexuality, romance, masculine and feminine energy, those old roles get me hot. I need/want them to feel like a feminine woman, and I like men who enjoy doing their part as well.
The men I’ve been in relationships with, married and now date are men who: hold open my doors, pay most of the time, drop me at the door when it’s raining, carry something heavy even though I can do it myself, carry me to bed, buy me flowers, change the oil in my car, make me call to make sure I got home safe, don’t ask permission before they kiss me, and push me up against the wall when they do, hold me when I’m feeling overly emotional and teary…
I could go on….the point is, NO, I don’t want complete and utter equality in all ways. Equal in our worth and value to what we bring to a relationship, yes, but different, and not necessarily equal in the ways it’s expressed.
I CAN do all those things for myself. I CAN do them for men (except maybe carry them to bed
, but I don’t find the thought very sexy. If I wanted to strip away all gender differences and roles I’d date one of those New Age men Evan wrote about not too long ago. The kind that made most women skeeve because we actually like our men like MEN, not women.
Lisa M. 204
Gem@203, Very well said.
nathan 205
Gem – I get it. That’s your preference. Plenty of women share your preference, but definitely not all. And plenty of men fit your preference, but definitely not all.
But I’m a little tired of the assumptions that to be a man, you must do X, Y, and Z, or be X, Y, or Z.
Women have, rightly, spent decades (centuries perhaps) working to break down the oppressive effects of male notions of what constitutes being a woman.
I’m arguing that more of us need to do that on both sides, not to transform men and women into exact replicas, nor to create one standard of attractiveness, but to allow people more freedom to be who are they.
JB 206
@Helene…..I knew it was only a matter of time before a woman brought up the notion that it somehow always costs them more or(just as much)money as men to “show up” for a date where they won’t be spending a penny. Nobody says you have to buy a NEW outfit for a date.You already have makeup I’m sure.Take a shower,throw on a little “face”,some jeans,a top and be done with it.Total cost $0.00 And don’t bother wasting $75.00 on getting “it” waxed because most men hate it.We want a woman not a little girl.We don’t care what you’re wearing as long as you’re smiling,happy,and fun!!
BK 207
@ Helene #200
If we’re really going on a formal date, I could easily be wearing $4000 in clothes from my tailored suit to my expensive shoes. Let’s be honest: women expect their men to dress well and look good too. It goes both ways.
@ Gem #203
I absolutely HATE the argument you and many other women who agree with you make. You say you’re strong, tough, quick-witted, savvy, etc., but these are traditionally masculine traits. There’s nothing wrong with a woman being these things, but your ideas are so hypocritical. You expect men to behave in a traditional way, but you have no such expectations for women. You claim to embrace your feminine side, but it’s not traditionally feminine to be running a business.
It’s tough for men to decide what to do when it comes to dating. We’re constantly told women want equality and independence, but then they expect to be treated like helpless little girls on a date. You want men to hold your doors open, pull out your chair, pay for your meal, etc. These acts used to come from a position of power when men had all the power. I fail to see how you can be strong and tough while also being weak and submissive (traditional feminine traits) unless you’re doing it in a hypocritical way.
I’m not saying it’s wrong of you to want men to show you how much they appreciate you in these ways. All I want is for you to admit to being a hypocrite who has unfair ideas of gender roles in romantic relationships that cannot coalesce with the roles we have in society.
Also, you know what’s really masculine? Not doing what women expect us to do. What you want is a trained puppy. If you were really going out with masculine men, once they learned what you believe their role should be, their reaction would be, “F that! I can behave in any way I choose!” Masculine men cannot be trained and won’t behave how others expect them to behave.
SS 208
Nathan @205
I’m arguing that more of us need to do that on both sides, not to transform men and women into exact replicas, nor to create one standard of attractiveness, but to allow people more freedom to be who are they.
Have you ever thought that many men and women have done exactly what you suggest and out of the freedom to be who they are, they have decided that they PREFER the “traditional” roles?
Honestly, I think there’s a little too much passive-aggressive suggestion going on here that we’re all brainwashed into buying into certain gender roles and that we need to be “freed” from them. This is a board of intelligent, thinking people, mostly over 30.
We’re perfectly capable of examining why we think, feel and act the way we do and many women have come to the conclusion that we like acting in a way that is traditionally considered feminine and like men acting in a way traditionally considered masculine… and if any problematic thinking and behavior took place in our pasts, it was because we kept listening to people who said that the masculine/feminine should be dumped for some amorphous idea of being “equal.”
But by following these people who insisted that something was amiss with “traditional thinking” we instead began acting outside of our own nature and our relationships suffered because of it. So we had to work to reclaim our femininity and our appreciation of the masculine and reject the notion from “equalists” that something was wrong with us for feeling this way or that we were wrongfully “conditioned.”
So Nathan, I applaud you for behaving in a way that best fits you. Please allow the other women on this board who feel differently the same courtesy and stop questioning our feelings as if there is something that we don’t understand about ourselves and our behavior.
Gem 209
BK #207
“I absolutely HATE the argument you and many other women who agree with you make.”
It’s not an argument because I’m not arguing that all men or all women should be this way. It’s me explaining my personal idea of feminine/masculine behaviors that attract me because Nathan was questioning about it.
“You expect men to behave in a traditional way, but you have no such expectations for women.”
I don’t expect men to behave in traditional ways — but I am attracted to the ones that do. You’re right — I don’t have expectations for women –what other women do is not my business, but I do have expectations for myself to treat my man in what I consider particularly feminine ways.
“they expect to be treated like helpless little girls on a date. You want men to hold your doors open, pull out your chair, pay for your meal, etc. These acts used to come from a position of power when men had all the power.”
Helpless? How so? The behaviors you describe come from being a gentleman and polite, not power, imo. I don’t feel helpless when a man treats me this way, and I’ve never had a boyfriend or husband (I was married for 10 yrs.) consider me helpless.
“I fail to see how you can be strong and tough while also being weak and submissive.”
Well I’m not weak. But I can be submissive in certain ways and I don’t find that an inferior position. The man I’m dating finds the duality a turn on. I’m a bit of a tom-boy: I love guns, hunting, play wrestling, and I drive a truck.
But I also can be very lady-like, sophisticated, sweet, loving and gentle. I do let him take the lead in most ways and can be very submissive sexually. Like I said to Nathan, in the romantic, sexual, passionate side of a relationship these roles get played out more strongly because me and the men who choose me like it this way. My femininity and his masculinity are hi-lighted doing so, and it adds to our sexual chemistry.
“All I want is for you to admit to being a hypocrite who has unfair ideas of gender roles in romantic relationships that cannot coalesce with the roles we have in society.”
Sorry, no can do. I’m not being a hypocrite. But to confuse things further for ya, for some odd reason I always seem to be in relationships with men who love to cook, and do most of the cooking. Traditionally a feminine role, but that is fine with me, just as some of my tom-boy ways are fine with them.
What you want is a trained puppy.
I don’t try to “train” men. I wouldn’t be attracted to the type of man who could be “trained.”
SS #208, I agree completely!
Nathan #205
“I’m arguing that more of us need to do that on both sides, not to transform men and women into exact replicas, nor to create one standard of attractiveness, but to allow people more freedom to be who are they.”
I completely agree!
Jadafisk 210
“It’s tough for men to decide what to do when it comes to dating. We’re constantly told women want equality and independence, but then they expect to be treated like helpless little girls on a date. You want men to hold your doors open, pull out your chair, pay for your meal, etc.”
Different women want different things at different times, and it’s the same with men. But general advice from strangers means painting with broad strokes. Gem’s saying that in relationships, she does act more feminine because she feels that it works for her and that since she wants a traditional man, she behaves traditionally to attract him. Women who aren’t interested in traditionally masculine men will behave differently, in accordance with their preferences and perception of gender.
Lisa M. 211
SS & Gem;
You both said it all perfectly. I don’t know what all the pushback is all about. Men and women are wired a certain way. I believe most men prefer tradition when interacting with women because this is my experience. I’m going assume that this is the case for both of you as well. For the men who prefer a more egalitarian relationship then only date and interact with those women who desire the same and leave the women who want a more traditional relationships alone, simple right?
I have known men who have zeroed in on me since I’m very self-sufficient and independent because they were seeking out a woman who they felt would do all the heavy lifting in all aspects of the relationship, especially financially, while they wanted to just take back seat. You don’t want to know what name I have for men like this.
*Cyber high fives to you both*
SS 212
Lisa M., another cyber high five for you!
People acting in ways that are authentic to them will find their counterpart. No one needs to be pushed out of roles — whatever they are — that fit best for them.
My relationship with my hubby has traditional and “modern” elements, which is probably the same as many couples these days. He likes to do all of the “fixing stuff” around the house and mowing the lawn, while I couldn’t care less. He also enjoys cooking though and I am the sports nut in the house. We both work and contribute financially to the home… although he is open to the idea of me staying at home if we have young children.
Now when we were dating, he wanted to do all of the opening car doors, restaurant doors, paying for dates, contacting first, etc., and I was perfectly happy to do so. It seems in my more “egalitarian” relationships, like you, I was the one that ended up doing the majority of the heavy lifting, and it wasn’t all that “egalitarian” at all! However, my husband also was attracted to my work ethic, self-sufficiency and independence, but only in the sense that he liked being in the company of a smart woman.
The funny thing is, he was single for a long time and his mother said that maybe he was too traditional! He said that he was who he was, and wasn’t going to change… which was good, because he found me and said I was probably the most “traditional” woman he’d dated, but at the same time, I had all of the other “modern” qualities he valued as well.
So again, it worked for us, despite hearing from others that perhaps we needed to let go of certain beliefs and move into the 2000s or whatever. I just say that we should let people be their authentic selves and respect the fact that those selves might just be “traditional.”
Kate Candy 213
SS, Nathan, Venus, Lisa M. et al, it seems that some people prefer men acting first and some people have no problem with women taking the initiative, so doesn’t this say that what may be best is what is most comfortable? However, since I’ve been reading this blog and these threads, I have adjusted my behavior. In the last week or so, a couple of male acquaintances have chatted with me, seemed interested, but then cut the conversation off and walked away. These are men that I’ve encountered professionally. B.E. (Before Evan), I would have taken the first step and suggested that we go for coffee or a movie, but A.E. (After Evan) and reading really insightful responses to his posts, I didn’t initiate. It seems that the guys were waiting for me to propose something, and when I didn’t, they cut bait and bailed. So, hmmmm, do guys have certain criteria for women? Like if she wants to ask me out, I’d consider it, but she’s not relationship material, so I’m not asking her out. Wow. Ouch.
nathan 214
Have you ever thought that many men and women have done exactly what you suggest and out of the freedom to be who they are, they have decided that they PREFER the “traditional” roles?
Honestly, I think there’s a little too much passive-aggressive suggestion going on here that we’re all brainwashed into buying into certain gender roles and that we need to be “freed” from them. This is a board of intelligent, thinking people, mostly over 30.
SS – If you can’t see that the statement you quoted from me supports your preferences as well as mine and others, I don’t know what will.
What I’m mostly responding to are the repeated comments suggesting men and women are “hardwired in a certain way” and must act as such. Which to my ears has an undercurrent of suggestion that, for example, men who are less “traditional” are also lesser men. That we are wusses, or half-men, or some other such insult.
If everyone was just saying things like “I prefer traditional men” or “traditional women,” I’d have nothing to say about that. Because that’s just fine. But what I have seen repeatedly are statements like this “I prefer traditional men because they are MEN, they ACT LIKE MEN.”
It’s the tacked on judgement I’m commenting on.
David T 215
general advice from strangers means painting with broad strokes
@Jadafisk 210 BINGO!
EMK (post 182) restated that he recommends behaviors that tend to be EFFECTIVE and avoiding behaviors that are INEFFECTIVE (regardless of fair/unfair or any other judgement.) His description of what works and doesn’t is based on years of observations of interactions of his clients. Translation: for the typical man that his clients are attracted to, his suggestions usually work better than the alternative. Do they always work? Heck no, or many of his clients would be done with his services in a couple of weeks!
Ask if you want to attract the kind of man that Evan’s suggestions will lead you to (the typical professional male in the target age range of most of his clients; 30-55) or if you want someone a little different. If you do, you can weed out the regulars by mixing “effective” and “ineffective.” For you,that mix will be effective.
Sayanta 216
Kate candy
Didn’t you mention you’re separated and are not planning on getting a divorce? Do these guys know this? Perhaps that’s why they didn’t ask you out- they might be only interested in women they could eventually marry.
Venus 217
Nathan, if it works for you, then by all means, do it your way. However because it is non-traditional and many women (business savvy and otherwise) find it objectionable, You risk alienating a whole lot of potential prospects.
I have to ask though… If you were out on a first date with a woman you thought was really amazing and felt that she must be The One, would you ask her to pick up half the tab?
Kate Candy, I actually do believe that men have different criteria for women. A woman might reject a man as not being “the one” and either terminate the connection or slot him into the friendship category.
A man, on the other hand might not write a woman off completely if she is not ”the one” He is more likely to adjust his behaviour to casual mode and if allowed he will use the situation to his advantage without ever offering a commitment.
SS 218
Nathan, I understand. Honestly, I think it’s all in the way people are expressing themselves. When a woman says, “I want a man who acts like a man,” for example, it’s just easier sometimes to make that statement because the general idea is understood, versus taking more words to explain all the nuances of that statement.
Like I could probably see myself saying that among a group of friends or on a dating message board, but I don’t personally have a problem with a couple deciding that the man will stay at home with the kids (to use an example). Even if that’s not necessarily my choice, I wouldn’t consider the man who did that to be “less of a man.”
However, I still don’t see why a fight for legal equality in the workplace and the public sphere negates a woman’s desire for more “traditional” roles in the private sphere. In the former, we’re talking about situations that were clearly in violation of state and federal law… the latter is about the decisions of individuals to conduct their lives as they see fit. One cannot be compared to the other.
David T 219
Equality doesn’t negate your desire for more traditional roles, but it will change how men perceive and behave towards women. You can desire it all you want, but you also have to expect that the social shifts that accompany workplace and public equality will impact the private sphere too. After all, we spend about half of our time (not counting sleeping) as social creatures outside of the “private sphere.”
nathan 220
“I have to ask though… If you were out on a first date with a woman you thought was really amazing and felt that she must be The One, would you ask her to pick up half the tab?”
1. Mostly, I just pick up the tab. But I have been wrong about that feeling several times in the past. In other words, while I was totally into the woman I was with, she wasn’t as interested.
2. I’m pretty sure somewhere above I said that I tend to still initiate and put in the work in the beginning. And most of my comments had moved on from the point about picking up the check on the first date to addressing gender performance norms.
SS: Here’s the thing. If the majority of men continue to play mostly traditional roles at home, and continue to think and be supported to think they are the leaders, providers, fixers of most problems outside of the family home, etc – it’s difficult to keep that mindset from bleeding into the workplace. Perhaps not impossible, but it does seem to me to send mixed messages to men.
In part, what you’re seeing with men who are pushing back strongly against workplace equality, who are saying things like “women don’t deserve equal pay” for their work because of X, Y, or Z , is coming from that mindset. The one that believes – I’m the leader, provider, and even master of my home. That also applies at work, where what I do is invaluable, whereas what women do is in a supporting role, because they’ll eventually have kids, and need to raise the family.
Now the realities of the workplace have slowly broken down that mindset, but I think collectively, we’ve hit a wall now because it appears to many men that things ARE equal now. So, when pressed with statistics, lawsuits, and the rest, these same men think “You’ve got what you wanted. We’re all working together. We can get the same jobs. You’ve got sexual harassment laws. Why are you still bitching?” I have heard this kind of stuff from numerous men over the years. And when presented with the 77 cents to every dollar statistic, for example, the responses are almost always things like “well, women have children. They can’t work as hard, or as many long hours as men. They aren’t the family providers.”
SS 221
Nathan and David,
Well, if we wanted to talk about being really traditional in the private/public sphere, then most men today would be totally fine with a woman who decides not to work at all and aspires to a life as a homemaker — even if children aren’t in the picture.
Let’s say that my only aspirations in life were to be a homemaker and wife. I have no desire to have a career and take a low-paying job for the time being. I’m dating and meet professional men who could give me the lifestyle I desire. Then I’m honest with them and tell them that I’m only working in my current job until I marry, and then I plan to start my “real” life of being a homemaker.
I don’t know any man today — except maybe a very rich older guy or a very conservative religious type — who would give me the time of day. I would be seen as lazy, entitled, intellectually bereft and a bunch of other not-so-flattering adjectives… when not very long ago, this type of mindset from a woman was quite normal and not at all unusual. And a man above a working class level often took pride in the fact that his wife didn’t “need” to work.
By the way, I didn’t want to be that type of woman… I’m just mentioning an example.
So, all that being said, yes, changes in the public sphere have already changed perceptions of relationships in a private sphere as well. Men EXPECT women to work and contribute financially to the home — and if a woman does eventually stay at home, it’s after a long period of discussion about the goals for the family and the home and after children are born. Most women who say from the very beginning that they expect to be a homemaker and stay-at-home mother will find it very hard to date in today’s society… men expect women to have careers when they meet them, even if those women eventually give them up down the road.
My point is that men today already have to take on far less of a “traditional” load than they did just 50 years ago (and I’m actually glad about that), so it rings rather hollow for there still to be outrage from some men about women who expect men to pay for the initial dates and display chivalrous behavior. Men were expected to do a lot more “back then” to be with a woman, so it comes off rather petty for a man in today’s dating era to still complain about how much women supposedly want and how we’re all supposed to do everything 50/50 because women fought for legal equality.
Jadafisk 222
I was totally going to mention that… men have the full expectation that wives will help them sustain a double income household, and even when taking the traditionally (western) male role of household financial planning, they do it with dual incomes in mind. When you purchase a home, the price of which can only be comfortably sustained by two full time workers, you know what you’re doing, and wife and husband have a mutual understanding that everyone is going to do their share of breadwinning for years to come. They both reap the benefits of pooled income, benefits that they’re loathe to sacrifice for traditions that their parents may not have even adhered to.
SS 223
Glad you understood what I was attempting to say, Jadafisk. I didn’t write that first paragraph as clearly as I wanted.
My point was simply that for all of the male complaints about what women supposedly expect from them, the majority of American men today also expect that women will contribute equally to a dual-income household. That aspect of fighting for equality in the workplace has indeed transformed expectations in the private sphere about how much a woman is expected to contribute to a household. She’s now expected to contribute financially as well as in the “traditional” ways.
I’m not saying this is a bad thing, by the way. I like having a career. But the fact that most women are expected to work these days and make a reasonable, middle-class level salary if she’s college educated has taken a significant load off men’s shoulders.
So even we “traditional” women are probably contributing in much more “equal” proportions to a relationship than “traditional” of the past were expected to do. Again, not saying this is a good or bad thing, but it is a significant change from the past that has already taken place both publicly and privately… and I think it’s one that men often forget or take for granted when they start suggesting that women aren’t being “fair” because they want equality in the boardroom but not in the home. They seem to forget how much “equality” there is in the home already that didn’t use to exist.
Evan Marc Katz 224
Predictably, SS, you’re forgetting that as women contribute more monetarily, men are contributing in much more “equal” proportions at home and with child-rearing. You act like the only change is that women give more, and that’s not true.
Men, for the most part, still don’t have the option of working part time and staying at home to raise the kids, and, as such, don’t spend our time looking for women with money to take care of us. Talk about a load off of one’s shoulders…
SS 225
No Evan, I’m not forgetting that. But unfortunately, where I’m from, a lot of married women can’t say that they get much help with the home and child-rearing from their husbands at all. My mother certainly did not and my dad was generally a good guy and good father.
I’ve heard from so many working wives and mothers who have gone “on strike” at home because their husbands seem to have forgotten that they have roles to play at home too, but they expect their wives to work and take on the load at home. I grew up in the middle of this and I see my friends go through this, so I’m not forgetting this at all. It’s a constant concern and complaint… so much so that a lot of them told me not to get married at all because I would just end up having to take care of another “child” in my husband.
Thankfully, I didn’t listen to that advice, but I made sure to watch carefully for the staunch male “equalists,” because I saw with my own eyes how that usually ended up for the women who married them.
nathan 226
SS – I can think of half a dozen couples off hand that fit the story you raised. They got married. The wife really desired to raise children and not work, and the husband has done his best to support that. In a few of those cases, it was an expectation that once children were born, she’d quit the job and be with the kids. It’s really not as uncommon as you might think.
Lisa M. 227
“Men were expected to do a lot more “back then” to be with a woman, so it comes off rather petty for a man in today’s dating era to still complain about how much women supposedly want and how we’re all supposed to do everything 50/50 because women fought for legal equality.”
SS,
And this pettiness comes from the fact that, we had the nerves to ask for legal equality. I guess if we had just stayed quietly in our places there would be no complaints, right? When men start talking like this, I know it’s time to disengage them.
Helen 228
Everyone, I think we should not view marriages as a zero-sum game: he does less here, so she does more; she does less here, so he does more. That simply isn’t the reality. The reality is outsourcing. In recent decades, as more and more women have gone to work, it isn’t the case that proportionally, more men stay home. Rather, the job of childrearing has been outsourced to nannies and daycares. For the wealthy, household duties can also be outsourced: cleaning, laundry, home repairs, etc.
And I would never attempt to blame anyone for those choices. The job of childrearing is HUGE – SO HUGE. I feel frustrated when people talk about it as though it were nothing; that women in olden days were getting a break by being able to stay home to raise kids and “do no work.” That is quite a clueless belief. It doesn’t matter how cute the kids are or how much you love them; it is devilishly hard work, especially in the first few years of the child’s life.
Evan, I’m not sure what you mean by the statement that men for the most part don’t have the option of working part-time to help raise kids. I have several male friends in different lines of work who do that (law, nonprofit, academia), and it was no problem for their families or their employers. Men can even get FMLA, though they aren’t the ones birthing the babies. Our employment laws are becoming much more egalitarian now.
SS 229
Nathan: Yes, that’s an arrangement I hope to have at some point (although not for their entire childhoods — and maybe I’ll work part-time), so I know that a good number of couples make it happen. I was just making the general point that few women today would be taken seriously by a man if they said from the very beginning that they weren’t really going to pursue a career because they expected to not work as soon as they got married. That’s one result of the idea of legal equality also spreading to the private sphere.
Lisa M.: Exactly. There does seem to be a bitterness in such complaints. “Oh, so you wanted the right to be in the workplace and rise higher than the role of secretary, huh? Well, now you have the money to pay for your own meals on dates, so don’t expect anything from me. Happy?”
Helen: I agree marriage/relationships aren’t a zero-sum game, which is why my point all along was that its up to couples to decide what works best from them and go from there. If a woman wants a more traditional role in the home, she should find a man who supports that, not be subject to criticism that she’s somehow being capricious because she’s a career woman at the same time. And I agree that people really underestimate what it takes to stay at home with children. I know a guy who is a stay-at-home dad and he wrote a freelance article about how hard it was… his wife originally stayed at home, but she returned to the office and now he worked from home. He mentioned all of the times he’d tease her about the house looking like a tornado had run through it when he got home, and now, she was giving it right back to him!
But I think there are still a number of men who think they have the “harder” job by going to work in an office each day and handling the financial load, while the woman gets to “be at home.” I’m not going to say one is easier than the other (don’t really know), but the perception is that being away from home is the “harder” position.
And I also know men in academia and other fields that have used FMLA and part-time work so they can spend more time with the kids… so the option is becoming more common for men to contribute in that way. It’s not as acceptable perhaps in the public eye (although I support it greatly), but that is definitely changing.
nathan 230
I actually think having a wider net of support for children is better for them anyway. Having access to extended family, friends, and quality day care centers gives kids more perspectives in life, and gives parents a break from always being “on-call.” I have zero illusions about raising children – it’s a huge job, and needs to be considered just as important, maybe more important than any given place of employment.
As for the continued references to men questioning paying for dates – especially the first date – it would be nice if such questioning wasn’t always turned back around as “you’re a bunch of cheap, bitter whiners.” But I won’t hold my breath.
Kate Candy 231
@Sayanta (216). Yes, you’re right, I’m the one not getting divorced, but guys who seem interested compliment me a lot, act attentive and do not ask me about my marital status. When I was living with my husband, men would approach me, and never ask me about my marital status. It was up to me to say, “I’m married.”
When I first started reading this blog, I objected to something that Evan wrote, which I remember as, “you meet great men all the time” or “there lots of great men out there” and I said, “No, they’re not.” The demand for a specific type of man is huge, whereas the supply is small. Guy de Maupassant wrote about an unhappy woman in his short story The Necklace. Because of this woman’s lack of dowry and family connections, she “had no hope, no way of being known, understood, loved and married by a rich and distinguished man.” Over a hundred years after GDM, Evan writes, “Don’t try to date a man who won’t date you.” Women want (and I’m absorbing and reacting to comments on this thread) a man who compartmentalizes his reactions to women to treat them asexually in the workplace, but can coddle them at home. Women might want that, but SS have you seen this model working in this day and age? I’m thinking of Arnold and Maria, Eliot Spitzer and his wife and the IMF guy and his wife. Those guys were hard-driving career guys who appeared to be great spouses (if you looked past the reports of their harassment of coworkers). I used to work for a prominent investment bank. Those guys were seen to be great husbands, but they were raping the economy. I think there’s a connection between woman who rate men as great because they pick up a check or pick up a lot of checks and guys who believe “I pay for stuff, therefore I’m entitled to act anyway I want.” What I would hope to see is men and women meeting, talking and seeing if they are compatible without all the b.s. expectations. There’s something limiting about women who are looking for men to treat them like pampered poodles. I just read about a new website called Cloud Girlfriend where people post fantasy profiles with fake pictures to meet other people who have posted fantasy profiles and fake pictures and people interact through role play. 85,000 people signed up for this service. Sad, sad and more sad.
SS 232
Kate,
I’m thinking of Arnold and Maria, Eliot Spitzer and his wife and the IMF guy and his wife. Those guys were hard-driving career guys who appeared to be great spouses (if you looked past the reports of their harassment of coworkers).
I’m curious as to why you would choose these particular men as an example and especially why you would think they appeared to be great spouses. I didn’t know much about Eliot Spitzer or the IMF guy before recently, but Arnold ALWAYS had a sordid past with women, so nothing about him ever appeared to me that he was a great spouse.
I also am not sure why you used the very wealthy and powerful as your examples. When I think of dateable/marriageable men, I’m thinking of the guy who’s the high school teacher or the manager of the local bank in Average Town, Wisconsin or the professor at the local university or the pediatrician with a small practice in Average Town, or the small business owner who runs a mom-and-pop selling a niche product or the guy who has one local franchise of some fast-food restaurant or coffee chain.
All are random guys who have some financial stability, but are general middle class guys. You know, the kind that most of us meet on a regular basis… I don’t know too many women who regularly date and marry powerful politicians, investment bankers and heads of international corporations and firms.
The average general middle class guys like the ones in the above categories (which was usually the type I dated) didn’t come off with a sense of entitlement at all because they paid for a date. Many of them had a Midwestern or Southern upbringing — often with a somewhat religious background — and that behavior was simply associated with being a gentleman. Now that is not the only way one can show he was a gentleman, but these men grew up watching their fathers open doors for their mothers, hearing their mothers and fathers tell them to always let the woman have the last appetizer/cookie/etc., on the plate. The first time I encountered this behavior on the date, I was flabbergasted and told the guy to go ahead and eat the darn dumpling, but he said, “No, I was not raised that way and I wouldn’t feel right taking the last piece of food from you.”
Now, I could have gotten annoyed by this dumpling silliness or appreciated the spirit in which he was making the offer. I chose the latter and ate the dumpling… and in the future, I made sure to eat more slowly so he was able to eat his share and still make sure he left one for me as well.
Anyway, I still can’t quite understand why I’m supposed to feel that these men are somehow behaving badly or going to behave badly in the future because they have the audacity to believe in chivalry… or that they have a secret sense of entitlement or a belief in female inferiority because they open doors for women, save the last appetizer for her and pays for dates.
Maybe some of us Midwestern/Southern gals appreciate all that… and don’t feel we have to look for some fabulously wealthy and powerful guy either because the goodhearted Average Joes we know act the way they do out of a general sense of decency.
(And as I said before, I did not see this type of behavior growing up — all I saw and learned was the idea that women needed to “pull their own weight” — so chivalry was quite new to me when I entered the dating world and began dating men that had a different set of values. It was a breath of fresh air, and I don’t apologize for expecting it nowadays. Other people can do as they see fit, of course.)
Lisa M. 233
SS @232,
Wonderfully put. I too was told I needed to pull my own weight as well.
I’m a Native New Yorker and I often wish the men here were more chivalrous and less entitled. In NYC, the ratio is 7 women to 1 man and is ranked as one of the cities with the most single men. Do you see what women here are up against? With the odds being in their favor most have been using them to their advantage (sexual) and have also decided to put settling down on the backburner.
It appears that the most marriage minded men are in the Midwest and the South. I’m considering joining a OLD site and doing a search in those areas. I’ve all but given up on the men here.
Evan Marc Katz 234
Hey Lisa, since this is a fact-based website, how about you show me the place where you learned there are 7 women to 1 man? I’ll bet you everything I have that it’s not true. Last I read, there were about 200,000 more single men in New York City than single women. But this doesn’t even account for gay men, so I don’t think the disparity is as great as you think it is.
Sharon 235
Evan wrong way round 200,000 more single women than men
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/04/20/worlds-best-city-for-men-new-york-city-no-1-in-survey/
“Single women between 25 and 44 far outnumber single men in most large cities on the East Coast, but New York City’s “mating market” is the worst of all, according to an article in The New York Observer two years ago that quoted Richard Florida, the author of “Who’s Your City?” In New York’s metropolitan area, single women outnumbered single men by more than 210,000, according to Mr. Florida. Those numbers were slightly better for single women in Washington, D.C., where they outnumbered men by 50,000″
EMK Note: That’s what I meant to say, thank you
Gem 236
Kkate Candy
“Women want (and I’m absorbing and reacting to comments on this thread) a man who compartmentalizes his reactions to women to treat them asexually in the workplace, but can coddle them at home.”
“There’s something limiting about women who are looking for men to treat them like pampered poodles.”
Women who appreciate gentlemanly behaviors translate to you to mean we want to be coddled and treated like pampered poodles?
Seriously? If on a date, a man let’s you order first, picks up the tab, and opens your car door for you, do you feel like a coddled poodle? If so, as an capable woman would you feel insulted by him?
And which is it? Is he coddling you or trying to control you by these entitled, domineering, behaviors because to you they suggest he’s bound to be a lying, cheating ass?
Has the feminist movement gone so far as to stamp out gentlemanly behaviors as not only unnecessarly, but re-define them as insulting and an afront to women?
Lisa M. 237
Evan,
I guess, I stand corrected. I heard those stats quoted somewhere. However, I did hear recently that there are a lot of single men here in NYC but I did not know that they outnumbered single women.
I just don’t care for the men here even if there is a lot of them to go around.
Kate Candy 238
SS @232 You make very good points. Chivalry is great. Men opening the door is very nice. I just think that, as wonderful as it appears, these little niceties do have a tendency to, in some cases, be manipulative. When women, or Evan, say that it’s a rule that men have to pay for the first date, I think that’s too rigid. It’s the “have to” that I object to. Perhaps I’m talking about my own experiences. I’ve met men who acted very chivalrously, but their actions were more about their wanting to present an image more than their wanting to be a good man where I was concerned. But I was raised to evaluate men by these superficial standards, by what I now would consider superficial standards. So I’m all for guys being genuinely protective and courtly; however, I don’t think one should take that kind of behavior too seriously. If the guy doesn’t pay for the first date, or doesn’t call enough, it should be noted, but if there are other qualities, it does not have to be a deal-breaker.
Of course, this blog is created for women who are looking for marriage from online suitors and in that case, you might want to stick to these rules because there might be a chance that a guy falls in love at first sight and will jump through hoops to win you. I just think that this is only going to happen for a very small percentage. Others who live by this advice might miss out on relationships that could develop and lead to marriage, or relationships that evolve into friendship.
You see, I’m for women and men growing together as lovers or separately as friends. I don’t believe that marriage should be the target, it can become a reality, but too many women become way too caught up in marriage as a goal, robbing themselves of other experiences.
I have loved some bad men, but I’m a better woman for it. I think if you’re attracted to someone, but they don’t pay or they don’t act chivalrous and you discard them, you will regret it.
SS 239
Kate… well, one thing we can definitely agree on is that those chivalrous behaviors by themselves don’t make a man a “good guy.” Going back to my examples, the guy from the dumpling story abruptly ended our interactions a few months later by saying he was at a personal crossroads in his life and really didn’t need to be dating anyone. And he had a right to feel that way, but it was rather disappointing for him to come on so strong at first and then put an unexpected halt on things… and then go poof!
One of the most chivalrous guys I dated also suddenly put the brakes on because he was recently out of a marriage and didn’t want to get serious with anyone. He also continually reminded me (and I continually didn’t pay attention) that he was “seeing other people” — in other words, if I’m looking for exclusivity, he wasn’t the guy. Oh, and boy did I feel embarrassed when I found out the reason WHY he didn’t spend a particular evening with me… because he went to a birthday party for the son of the other woman he was dating. But hey, he warned me, right?
So I know that chivalry is not an automatic sign that a man is going to be a great boyfriend and possibly a husband… I’ve always taken it as a potentially positive initial sign, and then continued to watch his behavior in other ways.
That being said, I’ll never consider it to be a manipulative behavior. It can be for some men, but for others, it’s just the way they are. And I will accept all niceties in the spirit they are offered without looking for some ulterior motive.
As for the person I actually did marry, he pretty much followed most of what Evan says a man does when he’s truly interested in a woman (which was why I started reading Evan’s blog in the first place).
As for the men I discarded early? Yeah, they were the ones who didn’t pay and weren’t very chivalrous from the beginning. It worked for me, and I had nothing to regret by dropping them.
starthrower68 240
When a man hasn’t texted or called you because he’s “been in his own little world” (and I quote), he’s just not that into you. He said I shouldn’t assume that just because he’s been in his own little world but I’m pretty sure if he were really interested in me, he’d make sure I know it. I have umm “accidentally” lost his phone number. I have written that one off.
Kurt 241
I get the impression that the typical women would rather put up with shitty behavior from a man rather than be alone, although she will bitch and complain about it. The typical man, on the other hand, would rather be alone than put with with shitty behavior from a woman.
Margo 242
Coming in on the tail end of this late, but…Elliot Spitzer is a DOG!!!
I think we can all agree on that one.
sharon 243
@ Kurt
Have to agree with that. It’s a terrible strategy but once I find a guy whom I attracted to who’s attracted to me that I can have a conversation with and enjoy time with and can orgasm with I really really really don’t want to have to start looking again. I would go as far to say I want to get married so I don’t ever have to look ever again. So sometimes regular sex resulting in me getting off with someone who has a boarder line tolerable personality seems like a pretty good deal. The brain gets out voted by clit and heart every now and then.
@Kate
I have no problem paying in an exclusive relationship once I’ve gotten a better sense of the guy. But I think the problem is that why most people are essentially good but there are always a few opportunist in the crowd. And the same way a man may keep a booty that’s not up to his standards he may also keep a cheap date around because, well why not? No skin off his teeth. I’ve seen men put up the charade of hollow gestures to get what they want but let’s a lot of time and effort your average Joe might not want to put forth to a women he’s not entirely interested in.
And besides every time I go out with a guy I always have the little voice in the back of my head praying this guy isn’t going to go all lifetime movie on me. I really can’t think of nicer way to say “Hey, thanks for assuming I’m not an axe murderer.” than picking up the tab.
Josh 244
Honestly other then sex & children, I’d be happy never to be in a relationship.
m 245
“My point is that men today already have to take on far less of a “traditional” load than they did just 50 years ago (and I’m actually glad about that), so it rings rather hollow for there still to be outrage from some men about women who expect men to pay for the initial dates and display chivalrous behavior. Men were expected to do a lot more “back then” to be with a woman, so it comes off rather petty for a man in today’s dating era to still complain about how much women supposedly want and how we’re all supposed to do everything 50/50 because women fought for legal equality.”
This.
Especially since — I mean, have people forgotten that the ERA was never ratified? Have people forgotten that women still make 70 cents for every dollar a man makes?
As Cynthia Heimel said – “Walking wallet? Well, who has all the money?”
m 246
Since Sharon has already pointed out the article where it said there are 200,000 more single women than men in the New York metro area, I’ll add that there are 7 single women for every 1 single man in Atlanta, not New York — which is what Lisa might’ve been referring to.
(I won’t insult anyone’s intelligence here by assuming you can’t Google for a study yourself, if you feel you just must have one.)
The implications of that are that it tends to change men’s expectations of how they think women “ought” to be behaving, since the men then consider themselves a ”more valued commodity”.
(And Evan, some comments ago upthread you accused me of “misinterpreting” your blog. I’ll first say what another commenter said, which is that just because I’m disagreeing with you, it doesn’t mean I’m misinterpreting you. And WRT the “hammering” — where did I say it was only happening on this here blog? Speaking of misinterpretation … Our society is soaked in that message; it’s merely reinforced here. And I’m certainly not raising it to argue about it, but I do think it’s kind of singular that it’s only those ladies who disagree with you that tend to get accused of that kind of “misinterpretation”. I’m just saying.)
Evan Marc Katz 247
Go on, m, insult our intelligence, as I continue to “soak our society” in facts:
http://www.halfsigma.com/2008/04/unmarried-mal-1.html
On the surface, a 7 to 1 female to male ratio is so ridiculous that I can’t believe a bright girl like you is buying it.
But of course I can: it’s called the confirmation bias, where you seek out information that validates what you already believe. You’re simply relying on some Internet hearsay to make your point about “no good men out there”. And yes, I believe that would be considered a “misinterpretation” of the facts presented on my blog.
Seriously, you might be better off on another blog that also believes in cockamamie theories like a 7-1 sex ratio or an oppressive and dominant patriarchy when women are now more educated than men. A sort of Fox News for women, if you will.
I, for one, believe in equality – which means you taking responsibility instead of placing blame on the opposite sex. If you can’t do that, you don’t have to comment. I often explain what men do wrong – and how women should leave them – and I really don’t enjoy having to defend myself or men against specious claims.
Evan Marc Katz 248
When it comes to pay discrimination, the one statistic you hear over and over is that women make only 76 cents for every dollar a man earns. To the average person, that ratio gives the false impression that any woman working is at risk of being paid 24 cents less per dollar than a man in the same position. But all the wage-gap ratio reflects is a comparison of the median earnings of all working women and men who log at least 35 hours a week on the job, any job. That’s it. It doesn’t compare those with equal work, equal training, equal education or equal tenure. Nor does it take into account the hours of overtime worked. The wage gap, in short, “is a good measure of inequality, not necessarily a measure of discrimination,” said Heidi Hartmann, president of the Institute for Women’s Policy Research.
For more on getting your facts straight, click here:
Goldie 249
#248, tru, but, IRT tenure, can you show me one man who had to start at a lower position mid-career because he had taken time off to be home with his young children? And, IRT overtime, how many men out there are unable to work extra hours because they have to go home after work to take care of their kids? How many men, when looking for a job, look for one with little overtime or flex hours so they can take care of the kids? For most men, AFAIK, these things are never even a factor in their careers. Most women I know, on the other hand, have to take these things into consideration when choosing a job or a new position within their company. So while women will pass over a job that requires 24×7 work or long hours because of their families, most men won’t… because taking care of family and children is not the man’s job. It’s something he may do on his spare time if so inclined. Not something he *has* to do no matter what. So there’s one root cause for income disparity, IMO.
Cause number two, now this is just my guess as I don’t have personal experience in that area – but from what I see around me, the higher up the career ladder, the more the workplace looks like “the old boys’ network”. Up on top, it’s almost 100% men. Kind of hard for a woman to be taken seriously by her peers if she gets that high up in her career, IMO. At a bare minimum, she has to know how to golf
Kenley 250
Evan,
If you believe that you know everything about how women feel about men and have nothing to learn from people who don’t share you views, then why print their posts at all? If you don’t print their posts, they WILL stop commenting on your blog and no public shaming will be necessary to get what you want — posters who only offer praise and support of you and your views.
As I think you know, I have been a long time reader of your blog, and I learned my lesson. I never try to change people’s minds. I just give my thoughts on something and I don’t engage in back and forth posts, People only change their minds when they haven’t already decided what they believe. I don’t need to be right and I don’t need people to agree with my view of the world.
So back to my original point, why post comments you don’t like and then belittle the women who make them?
Evan Marc Katz 251
Kenley,
The reason I post dissenting points of view is to keep a measure of freedom of speech. Not full freedom of speech, because I don’t see any point in having comments that insult other commenters or myself, but I’ll always give people the opportunity to air their points of view. Similarly, since this is my blog and it represents my point of view, I will sometimes take the opportunity to point out what I see as the flaws in someone’s argument. You can call this a “smackdown” or a “shaming”; I call it “truth”.
It’s FALSE that all men are dogs.
It’s FALSE that men get married just to have sex.
It’s FALSE that men are your oppressors.
It’s FALSE that men don’t want to commit.
It’s FALSE that men have the upper hand in dating.
It’s FALSE that quality women outnumber quality men.
These are not my OPINIONS. This is about what’s REAL. Not what’s fair or what’s right or how you want the world to be to justify why you’re still single. Some men use women for sex. Some men are emotionally unavailable. Some men are cheap bastards. Some men are physically abusive. Some men are not going to make any woman happy, ever. And what do I tell you about these men, over and over and over again?
STOP DATING THEM.
Focus your energies on leaving the bad guys and attracting and marrying the good ones and then you can stop reading my “smackdowns”.
But I’ll defend every word I’ve written – okay, ALMOST every word
– because I’m not telling you what I WANT to be true or what I THINK men SHOULD be doing. I’m doing my best to tell you how things ARE and how you should adjust accordingly.
Venting about how men do you wrong and how they should change solves nothing. Which is why I’m not particularly tolerant of m’s consistently negative attitude towards all things male and her ability to spin any constructive criticism of how women can make better decisions into “but MEN are far worse…!” Honestly, take it to Jezebel.
Anyone who reads this can tell that my entire mission is to HELP women understand men and DISPEL untrue myths about dating, online dating and men. If you can’t see that by now, I wish you the best of luck.
Andy 252
#221, My point is that men today already have to take on far less of a “traditional” load than they did just 50 years ago ”
This is true, but it is also true that men get less out of a relationship then they did 50 years ago. Now a days, woman still want the benefits of the traditional male/females roles while still having the gains in terms of societal equality
Nicole 253
I also think that if you are a 30 something and both of your parents worked, mom may have done more of the housework, but I’d say that looking at the next generations of the two income model, I see much more participation in the home by the men that I know. Cooking, cleaning, staying home with sick kids, working from home b/c the wife’s job had longer hours or wasn’t one where that was possible. These are the things that I see so far with my friends and colleagues who are married with children. There is a big difference between how this all played out with Baby Boomers vs. how it is playing out with Gen Xers (and how it will play out with Gen Y and Millenials.)
So I think that today, if both people work, you’ll find more men cooking, cleaning, etc. and all of the places where I’ve worked have had paternity leave, which the men take, and I’ve also known couples my age where the man took time off (esp. if he had a lower paying or more flexible career), or who took advantage of flexible hours to deal with the kids on a regular basis.
And shouldn’t all of these things be discussed? I don’t know why you wouldn’t just talk about how household chores should be divided up. A lot of my female friends aren’t even good cooks so anyone wanting a good meal might want to take over that chore.
SS 254
Evan,
On the surface, a 7 to 1 female to male ratio is so ridiculous that I can’t believe a bright girl like you is buying it.
I agree that a 7 to 1 female to male ratio in any major city is pretty implausible. However, the link that you gave was only focused on the white population.
I know that the majority of your readers are white. Like the majority of the country. But if you are going to post a survey with data to help support your point, to only use data involving white singles is rather, well, exclusive of a portion of your readers.
However, if you look at the single female-male ratio regarding other ethnic groups, the story might be a little different. The raw numbers for black women-men in Atlanta, for example, equals about 2-to-1. But if one then factors in educational differences and other issues, it could come off “unofficially” as 7-to-1 in terms of perceived “eligibles” among both genders. (Let’s define that as college educated, employed — not counting brief unemployment periods based on the economy, and no criminal record.)
Also…
It’s FALSE that all men are dogs.
It’s FALSE that men get married just to have sex.
It’s FALSE that men are your oppressors.
It’s FALSE that men don’t want to commit.
It’s FALSE that men have the upper hand in dating.
It’s FALSE that quality women outnumber quality men.
These are not my OPINIONS. This is about what’s REAL
I’ll grant you that the first four are “real.”
The final two are up to debate depending on the women and men in question and their sociocultural backgrounds.
But, I have always agreed with your general premise that if you do meet noncommittal, oppressive, doggish, awful men, the easiest answer is to stop dating them.
SS 255
Nicole @253
I also think that if you are a 30 something and both of your parents worked, mom may have done more of the housework, but I’d say that looking at the next generations of the two income model, I see much more participation in the home by the men that I know. Cooking, cleaning, staying home with sick kids, working from home b/c the wife’s job had longer hours or wasn’t one where that was possible
Yes, this is my story. Mom worked, actually made more money than Dad and did he majority of the housework/child rearing. While Dad helped, it was far from equal. He also seemed to take more liberties to get involved in his own hobbies and interests. I guess my Mom could have done that as well, but she felt that things had to get done around the house, and so she didn’t have time or energy for much personal enjoyment.
I do see more all around general equality in relationships today between men and women, and that’s what I looked for as well in my own dating life. So there has been a change, but I also know an equal number of women who are still dealing with the model of working inside and outside the home, while the husband works outside the home and does little inside. Some men do have some catching up to do in this manner, while others are doing beautifully in this area and it’s great to see relationships where roles are fluid.
MH 256
I think men know that if it doesn’t work out with one woman there’s always another. Plus most I’ve met have their own pursuits, family/friend relationships, businesses and interests, so they know not to revolve their life around one single thing/person.
PimpbyBlood 257
“the price of sex is the company of a woman”
ritu 258
I am 27 single and successful.I have my own life.I have no desire for marriage and kids.But unfortunately i live in undeveloped country where marriage is still compulsory.People look down on you or wonder if something is wrong with you if you are not married till 30.This is esp true for my mother and grandmother generation.Both are cried few times infront of me because i said i dont want to marry.It breaks my heart.I just cant explain them why i dont want to marry because for these women marriage is their identity and most important thing.Funnily enough both these women had abusive marriages and they still want me to marry!
I really wish i should have born there in developed country.
Karl R 259
I enjoyed being single. My fiancée enjoyed being single. That’s why we have a great relationship. If it wasn’t better than being single, we’d break up.
People who hate being single end up in mediocre relationships, because that mediocre relationship is better than the misery of being single.
If at all possible, learn to enjoy being single. It won’t prevent you from looking for a relationship, but it will prevent you from accepting a bad one.
Margo asked: (#56)
“what do you call these type of women who are allowing him to use them as a sperm receptacle while he gets his rocks off, and not receiving a committment from him in return?”
I call them normal women who enjoy sex.
As long as I make certain that the woman gets her rocks off too, she’ll usually consider it to be an agreeable arrangement.
Margo said: (#89)
“My comments about the ‘motivations and desires of men as a “whole”’ are that they want sex.”
Women, as a “whole” want sex too.
Speaking as a man who is engaged (and as a man who wants sex frequently), I would not consider marrying a woman unless she wants sex about as much as I do.
Lisa M. asked: (#112)
“if a man can get laid as much as he wants without having to make a commit, why would he?”
In order to have a committed relationship.
Almost two years ago I began an explicitly non-committed relationship. After several dates, we began having sex frequently. Three months later we explicitly agreed to date exclusively (we had been de facto exclusive up until that point). Around the 15 month mark I proposed.
My fiancée has demonstrated that I can get laid (with her) as often as I want without having to make any commitment. However, as I came to realize that she is the kind of woman I want to spend my life with, I started pursuing a more committed relationship.
Lisa M. said: (#115)
“I believe that sex should be used as leverage.”
Therefore, any semi-intelligent man will avoid marrying you.
You’ve already demonstrated a pattern of behavior (withholding sex as leverage), which I fully expect will continue after a man marries you.
Therefore, I expect that after a man marries you, he still won’t be getting laid as often as he wants.
Single men like “low investment, low return” relationships. Why would a single man trade that for a high investment, low return relationship?
Angie said: (#180)
“you should want to demonstrate you are a GENEROUS person. Generosity is something you can demonstrate by planning the outing and picking up the check early on.”
I tithe (10% based on my pre-tax income), and I give to causes in addition to my regular tithe.
Despite this, you automatically base your opinion of my generosity on how much I spend on you during a first date (even though you are not an impoverished woman).
As Evan said (repeatedly), men pick up the check because it’s an effective way to get a second date. If I want to be more generous, I’ll take you out for coffee on the first date, split the check and give $50 to charity.
Spending money on a first date is not generosity. It’s gambling. If you’re looking for a generous man, find the guy who is helping to fund the soup kitchen.
JJ 260
Being single is pretty cool as a guy. I don’t have someone else telling me what to do, be or think. The honest truth is that in the US, the number of high quality of women is pretty low and dismal. Most American women want to be career women, and career women place men pretty far from priority #1. Also, did I mention how many women are fat, feminist and flaky? Ah yes, the three f’s.
As men, we’re expected to initiate everything, pay for most of the relationship, and deal with her crap. Thus, for a lot of guys, we can spend our time traveling, pursuing hobbies, or consorting with foreign women.
Being single is pretty awesome when the alternative is of low quality.
Now I’m going to buy some beer and play some video games…
Noel 261
This is changing. Until recently, I have been the woman satisfied with career, friends & occasional side nooky followed by some get out. Many of my female friends are the same. I think you only hear from the whiney women & the men that pine for relationships are not vocal about it. I think it’s more 50/50 than represented.
Ms. Bee 262
Confirmation bias abounds in the dating world, too. A dating advice specialist who only works with one gender will tend to only see members of that gender who hate being single. For example, if Dan Savage specialized in advising gay men, he could conclude gay men hate being single way more than lesbians do. Is he right? From his point of view, sure. And other people, like the lonely, lovely women at the lesbian bar I frequent, would beg to differ.
On my other blogs, which tend to attract women of a liberal, pro-feminist bent (which some will call man-hating, but which these women define as “equal rights for everyone, and the eradication of rigid gender stereotypes for all, which is VERY different), the women are happy to date, but also love being single, and are often less interested in relationships than the men or women in their lives.
I’m also on many forums populated by boorish men whose language choices tell me they don’t care for women very much, and who aren’t having much success with dating, but who believe they deserve to date the most attractive, successful, and emotionally generous women life has to offer. Being single pains them, and they blame women for it instead of looking inside themselves.
These men will never be clients of someone like Evan. And women happy in singledom will never be visit a dating coach, either.
Media portrayals help shape our viewpoints, too. The stereotype of the happy-go-lucky swinging bachelor and the anxious, miserable, gotta-snag-a-man now woman is the stuff of which successful movies, magazines, and of course, dating sites are made. Their polar opposites don’t let the media cash in anywhere near as lucratively. I know this quite well. I used to work in it.
doug 263
I will tell you why men don’t mind being single and I’ll tell you when they decide to get into a long term relationship. It comes down to the sex. Within the past few weeks I have met and slept with 3 differnt women, one that was 20, and two in their 30s. I will get tired of dating and look for longer term relationship when I am no longer able to woo women and take them to bed easily.
I know that there are some women (#48) that think that it is not that possible for men to have “endless supply of women” but I’m in my 40′s and I’m telling you ladies, it is the case. Now, you will probably say, “but are these quality women?”.
And here is the thing that you don’t understand about men. When it comes to plain old sex, whether or not we actually like the woman doesn’t matter or not. That is what you do not understand. For this reason, guys are okay being single for a long time, as long as they get sex every once and awhile.
doug 264
I completely 100% agree with Derek 91. He says exactly what I mean.
Ariana 265
I’m a woman but thought I should comment as I’m not sure anyone mentioned this in previous comments. Women are more concerned with the number of men they sleep with than men. When a woman is single, she is more likely to significantly increase her numbers (trusting and dating the wrong guy one short-term after another). To women, this is a source of tension. On the contrary, men have fewer reservations about promiscuity.
Mike 266
Lurker, 1st time.
I hate being single. It’s a forced single. I am also in the process of getting a divorce.
I am learning to tolerate being single but by no means enjoying it. I was single for 12 years prior to my marriage and not had affection or been intimate with a woman for 10 of those years. Believe me, suicide was on my mind for quite some time.
I am learning that dating is to huge a minefield. I am learning that what women say they want is not what they actually want. And I’m tired of the games.
I hate being single. I want the company of a smart and funny woman who just likes being with me for being me. But the atmosphere is too poisoned, women want it all and supreme expectations I have no chance of attaining, men using GAME to fight against a system of perceptual alpha status and hypergamy.
Also, I posed a question to a girl friend of mine (very reminiscent of Steve’s question about limited options) and got a similar response. Most women will want that option to have kids, so me knowing i don’t want kids limits my ability to find a partner. So should i lie to achieve a basic need of companionship (eg. sex)? I’m not capable of that, so maybe I should just jump off a cliff because a life of looking for just random hookups is not my cup of tea. I want long term, i want cuddling with feeling and emotion, i just don’t want kids.
For some people single means wild times, quick hookups, and having wanton sex with just about anyone. For others (like me) it is the exact opposite. It’s not a party. It’s not fun. It’s not about sleeping around. It just plain sucks. I wasn’t built to serial date. The idea that all single guys are out just pumping and dumping chicks is an illusion. It’s only the top couple of super confident good looking guys that all women fight over, not me.
So i will be single for a long time once more. I hate it.. but it’s going to be my lot to deal with. It didn’t kill me the first time, so i guess i’m that much stronger for it this time around. And i just renewed my xbox live account.
Diana 267
To Mike, I believe that more and more women are choosing to not have children. I am seeing this in my daughter’s generation. It won’t become the norm, but there’s always hope that you will find the right partner for you.
M 268
I think men do start to hate being single more then women when their guy friends start getting married, starting the family and not hanging out as much with you the single guy. When your guys friends start getting married men start to dread being the single guy friend and when our friends are in serious relationships, engaged, about to get married, recently married, starting the family we single men then try to find a girlfriend pretty fast!!
I think it also goes both ways in the sense that some men are perfectly ok being the perpetually single guy, some don’t mind the off and on quick flings. But for like me the quick one nighter’s seem so empty and have that empty feeling rather than looking for the serious relationship and constantly hang out with each. Blah blah blah…
Some Other Evan 269
As a man, I never used to be satisfied with being single. I’ve never been good at hooking up, so I was basically either in a relationship or looking for one. After a string of pretty harsh rejections, I was telling a friend how I felt kind of hopeless about finding any girlfriend at all, let alone something serious. She asked me why I wanted a relationship, and the things I came up with are similar to what you said: companionship, someone I can be vulnerable/emotional to, someone to travel with, someone to do nice things for (I love to bake!), and of course regular sex and eventually children. Then she asked me if I really needed a girlfriend for any of that except the last two, or if friends could substitute. Or even if, in point of fact, friends already did substitute. She was right, of course, and went on to say that if I ever really wanted kids, I could adopt some, and if sex was really super important to me, I would be blowing all my money on hookers (as I said, I’ve never been good at hooking up). Since I didn’t do that, ipso facto sex isn’t that important to me, so therefore there’s no real reason for me to have a girlfriend.
Since then I stopped worrying about relationships and just spend time with my friends. This isn’t an afterschool special; I didn’t fall in love with my best friend after all these years or meet the girl of my dreams just because I was having fun or enjoying life, but I’m having fun and enjoying life nonetheless so who care? Not me.
Mike 270
@SomeotherEvan 269
“and if sex was really super important to me, I would be blowing all my money on hookers”
i hate this attitude by others. there’s a huge mind blowing difference between the want of sex for the sake of sex (self gratification) vs. loving committed sex where you know your partner intimately, know her desires, her sweet spots, and you’re both riding a tidal wive of emotion towards orgasm rather than just a quick paid pump where you know it was the money and not you that was the driving factor.
let’s be honest and never trivialize loving sex for a quick cash grab.
sex with my (soon to be ex) wife was phenomenal because i put her needs and pleasure above my own, and she validated and affirmed her love for me through the act and with the wry smile on her face after the deed, not to mention the insane affectionate cuddling sessions to follow post orgasmic bliss.
‘friends’ don’t fulfill this need of connection all human beings desire. fuck buddies might bridge the gap somewhat but i don’t think there is an equivalent to that. part of me would kill to have that back. if there was a nexus that i could enter and stay trapped in time, it would be those 2 years i was with her just before we got married. nothing compared, not even close.
it’s a shame that while the sex was as good as it got, we apparently became two entirely different people within our marriage and that it ended.
also i wonder if your friend is in or ever has been in a relationship. it would be extremely discourteous for her to be advising you that you could have all your needs of life met without a significant other if she isn’t also on the exact same path… perhaps you’ll enlighten us about that.
Anon 271
I think people lie to themselves a lot. For most single guys getting sex regularly is very hard, I had to practice a lot, before I was getting laid just once a year, and I’m young and hot making six figures from a top school. Now it’s slowly improving but still. Also I don’t think most guys would bother with relationships, if they could get sex from attractive women regularly, since women often are quite reluctant to have a relationship if you actually want it (they call that “needy”) and you have to do all this reverse psychology and game playing to actually get a relationship. Only if you are good at the reverse psychology and game playing, showing you are a dominant man who can get what he wants from women (the mysterious “confidence” women always find attractive), well you can only really learn this from having slept with a lot of women. So by the point that you have the confidence to make relationships easily, you might as well just have Friends With Benefits.
The bottom line is most guys are not getting anywhere relationship-wise or sex-wise with women, except for the few who know what they’re doing, and then they’re pretty cynical, pursuing the lowest cost path to sex, unless they want a family, then they pursue the lowest cost path to sex with a lady who’s not too slutty. I don’t know why women overcomplicate all this, but in pretty much every case, yeah that’s all we care about, is are you fit, intelligent, and in tune with your sexuality.
so very much true 272
as a straight man, i hate being alone and single now especially for the holidays. i was married twice at one time, and was a very caring and loving husband that never cheated on them and they did cheat on me. i was very committed to them as well, but it was not good enough for them. i go out every single night, not to be home by myself anymore. it gets very depressing being alone, especially when i thought that my first marriage would have lasted. the women that i was married to at the time, were filthy whores. had i known, i obviously would have never married them. like they say, live and learn. now that there are so many whores and lesbians out there today, it really will be hard for me now to meet another good woman again for me. i certainly cannot blame myself, for the garbage that they now have become. i know other men out there that have the same problem as well, at least i am not alone. once women’s lib took over, it really messed their brain up.
Ray 273
Can someone define what a ‘relationship’ is exactly? Because I’m getting kind of tired about hearing how people want a ‘relationship’ but don’t want to get married again… ever… or commit to someone again.
Seems to me, alot of people want the benefits of a so-called relationship but without any of the effort or risks of a commitment.
that’s not a relationship. It is a fuck-buddy with a long-term lease agreement… long term meaning +3 months < ?? a year? 5 years? or whatever constitutes what appears to be something legitimate.
Goldie 274
I have never heard anyone say that they want to be in a relationship, but do not want to commit — this sounds like an oxymoron. Not wanting to get married again is a completely different story, I have nothing against that one. The way I see the institution of marriage, it is a business arrangement that allows a couple to easier run a common household and (most importantly) raise children together. If they don’t plan on having children together, and if they both already have children from their previous marriages that they’re raising, I don’t see the reason why they should go through all the legal/financial hassle if they don’t want to. Especially if their kids are not thrilled about becoming part of a blended family and moving in with stepbrothers and stepsisters, either. Whatever works best for each couple. And if/when a relationship runs its course, it runs its course, the two of them part ways, no lawyers are involved, the couple doesn’t has to pay thousands of $$ to have their relationship dissolved – sounds pretty good to me. At this point in my life, I’ll happily take this arrangement, even if it comes with a label like “fuck-buddy on a long-term lease” or whatever — I can live with that.
With all that said, I respect other people’s choices to pursue a marriage. If one person wants to get married, and the other doesn’t, sounds like a deal-breaker to me — the two have different goals.
so very much true 275
as a straight man that was married twice, i was a very caring and loving husband that never cheated on them. but they both did cheat on me, and i was very committed to them as well. i am one out of so many men that hates being single. i would have thought that my first marriage would have lasted. when women are filthy whores, this is what happens to good men like me. i certainly did not do anything wrong for both of them to cheat on me. i must have been just too good, and they could not handle it. it seems women today cannot stay with one man and need a variety of different men to keep them happy, god forbid if they were to stay with one man that may really love them. most of the women out there now are just filthy garbage, what a waste of humanity. even after this happened to me, i still hope to meet a real good woman for me again. to all of you men that were lucky enough to have met the right women for you and have a family, be very thankful for what you have.
Saint Stephen 276
@so very much true (#275)
If your two ex wives ended up cheating on you, then maybe you need to own up some portion of the blame. Is either you weren’t much of the good husband you think you were, or your mate selection criteria was faulty- hence you had consecutively chose women that were wrong for you.
E 277
Some Other Evan: Your lady friend sounds (no offense) more like a mother talking rather than a friend. I understand her saying why do you want a girlfriend but then the comment… Something to the effect of don’t worry, you could always adopt kids, blah blah blah sounds like she’s just giving you the run around and a cop out cause it more sounds like she doesn’t want to help you and is like don’t worry at all and stop looking etc. I call BS on that especially when all your friends are in long term relationship, engaged to be married, already married and starting their families. Then the comments of don’t worry, don’t be in a rush blah blah is just pouring salt into your wounds.
All my friends are either engaged to be married, already married and have started having kids all the while I’m still single but definitely looking and hopefully get into a serious relationship soon. My New Years Resolution is for me to get into a serious relationship and be with a lady that wants to hang with me etc etc…
Sandra 278
I have known a lot of mail friends and they hated being single, some of men actually really hate being single but it just so happened that men are not showy in terms of their feelings they just want to hide their emotions or feelings about something that happened to them. unlike women they are showy about their emotions they tell their girlfriends what had happened to them and what they feel about it.
Jim 279
@Ray # 273
Those are your definitions of relationships. Other people see it differently than you.
I’d say you nailed it in the end: “whatever constitutes what appears to be something legitimate.”
What’s legitimate to the couple is what defines it.
Granted Evan usually talks about marriage, because that’s what the women coming to him are looking for, that’s their goal.
The King 280
Hey Im 29 call me King. I’ve spent a lot of time in relationships in my twenties but also had a such a blast in college I had to go back.
From 18-21yrs old I had quite a few relationships with girls that would begin and end in the same month. I actually named the relationships based on their month instead of by my exes name and refer back to them as inspiration and as a remindedoor I learned. 18 was possible the worst year I had with relationshships due to the fact that all 12 girlfriends I had met in high school but once they turned 18, they dumped me for sleezy and manipulative older men (some were over 30). The common tactic they would use was to invite us to a 21 and over bar/club close to school and promise to get us in. Unfortunately this involved being the last to wait outside and was then of course forgotten and ditched by my girlfriend who is getting free drinks and offered a job through the guy who led us there. The scenarios changed slightly and I wised up trying to prevent the continued huliations but no one would sell me a fake ID while many of my girlfriend’s recieved them as gifts or from girlfriend’s.
Although this went on for 3 years creating the feeling of being extremely screwed over by my own culture as a young american male eligible for the draft after 9/11; I was extremely lonely and had a horrible self esteem but still desired a connection with a woman and from 22-28, I finally did commit to 3 long term relationships but unfortunately they all failed, mostly from being used to the point I wanted to literally disappear from any connection to them whatsoever for good. Sure, I loved them but these were obsessed with their own needs, drives, ambitions while I was expected just forgo my needs/goals in everyway in order
Tom 281
I’m a man and I despise being single. Not because I just want sex, or anything dumb like that. But because ever since I was little I felt like I was missing something. Whenever I had a girlfriend that I loved I felt fine, but when I didn’t I felt incomplete. Maybe I’m just lame. But not all men enjoy single life.
NonExist 282
I enjoy being single.
But then again it may be more my nature than anything else.
Coming from a big family who is exceedingly social, and prides marriage and family more than anything else one would think I would be trying to nest up somewhere.
I’ve felt stifled by that ever since I was a child. It was just too much attention and affection that passed around amongst everyone. And that may have triggered my feeling better alone and away from everyone.
And even though being with a woman who is great for me would be nice, I do not need anyone romantically. Humans may be social creatures but just like our sexuality ranges our need for companionship ranges. Some of us are fine with a lot and other are great with little at all.
It might have helped that I never had a problem getting dates or casual sex despite my less than stellar looks, personality and poverty.
Just plain old dumb luck.
Which has kind of led me to feel like if I really wanted someone, I could get someone. At least for the near future.
NonExist 283
A question in general?
Why do people of either gender who “play the numbers game” or who enjoy promiscuity have to be labeled as having issues?
Can humans be diverse without being said to have issues just because of certain particular choices that harm no one if done responsibly?
Yet it is assumed that men are “dogs” and women are “sluts” if they choose the lifestyle.
Not expecting everyone to be progressive but it is funny how some on one side seems to accuse and insult whereas most on the other side just accept it as a difference of lifestyle.
And not just on this website either.
NonExist 284
Since it is a gamble for both parties why not cut one’s losses.
Maybe for some people it would be a good idea to not have sex and go dutch on dates until they decide to be exclusive.
That way nobody has to feel pressured or dejected that they sacrificed anything except time for someone they just met.
CC 285
Not to mention that according to many studies, women are more physically & emotionally abusive than men are. But women have generally convinced themselves that it’s only abuse when a man screams, shoves and throws things. When she screams, yells and throws things, it’s “expressing her feelings” or “getting through his thick skull.”
http://csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
Mani 286
I think women are generally too pushy for commitments and wants to jump into long-term immediately.
I would say that I am interested in more than just not being criticized or bored with someone. It should be relationship that should establish its quality to be termed and treated as long-term instead of verbal promises. I cannot make any promise that can define next 10 years of my life!
brit 287
I just want to be honest about this. What I have to say may be offensive, but I’m not intending to offend.
When I have relationships, (which is rare) they’re always low-investment-low-return, because in my experience there’s no such thing as high return. I crave it, but women just can’t deliver it. They’re too boring. The feeling of being connected to someone is definitely something special, but it can’t sustain me if I just can’t talk to that person. Women simply can’t understand me. If I try to explain myself, my behaviour or my thoughts, a woman will get frustrated, irritated, bored, or just jump to the first intuitive conclusion about what I mean. She never gets it right. It takes a bit of reasoned argument to understand my way of thinking about something. Women don’t want that. They want to look straight at my soul and know the answer. Well, I’m open to that. I’m *very* open to soulful communication. But I’m a complicated person, and my rational mind plays a big part in who I am; just as much as my intuitive side does. Women are attracted to the latter and resent the former. So then I resent *them* for it, and pretty soon I just want them to leave me the hell alone when we’re doing anything besides sharing love.
brit 288
Actually, I think I can put it a lot more simply:
Relationships belong to the world of emotions. There’s your imbalance, right there. Women crave relationships because they’re emotional beings. Without one, their world is incomplete. Men are more intellectual. So for them, a relationship with a woman creates loneliness rather than relieving it.
Maverick 289
@Margo, Venus, SS, JB:
Every single one of the girls I’ve dated (or attempted to take out on a date) has offered to pay, on the first date, when she was not interested. A lot of them are extremely feminine, professional, etc. I don’t believe in women stringing men along for free meals and tickets. If he’s “just a friend” then you should treat him like one, in the same way it would not be OK if you went out with tickets for someone and they decided to mooch off of you.
I agree if you’re interested, and men tend to take it badly, perhaps it works better for you to not offer to pay, but if you’re not interested, why take his money?
P.S. I feel the same way about guys misrepresenting their emotions to girls to get sex.
Fenix 290
Personally, I do not hate being single (I’m 33).
I have the William Wallace’s FREEEEEDOOOOM that was mentioned earlier and I like it very much, I do sports, work, study languages, visit friends, etc. But the thing is I don’t feel “trapped” when I’m in a r’ship (I think the people who feel trapped are doing it wrong).
The only thing I miss about a r’ship is the emotional connection.
Someone said “women are emotional beings”, and boy am I a woman when it comes to that. I’ve tried sex after a few dates with 2 men I liked, but hated it. I just can’t separate. I don’t understand the “samanthas” out there, or the men who have “fulfilling” sex with casual partners. I think everyone could have an endless supply of sex if you put your mind to it, but the question is do you really want that? I don’t.
I don’t think men hate being single more than women, I think women say it more and men just keep it to themselves. It depends on the person not the gender. If you like yourself and your life you’ll be fine being single just as you’ll be fine with someone.
I also think women’s expectations on men are really high and we want champions, but so are men’s. At least in my experience, they seem to want some sort of sexy professional Barbie who can cook and clean like their mom. We might learn better as we grow, but by then… well, we’re old.
Gregory 291
I’ve been single for six years (late high school to college) and many family members and friends are worried over my lack of a serious relationship. When I think about why I haven’t been too much interested in a serious relationship I come to the conclusion that I like to be independent with no restraints except my own. This doesn’t mean I go out and have sex with every female I can find…..it just means I do things my own way on my own terms. By being independent I’ve learned more about myself than I probably should know. Sometimes I get lonely but, usually this phase passes quickly as I have many activities and hobbies that enrich my life and take place of a relationship. Does this mean I’ll be single forever? No, I’m just waiting till I can be absolutely sure of myself before I commit another person to being stuck with me! =D
Mark 292
#249
Goldie, women could ‘have it all’ if they changed one aspect of their behaviors, and that is to let the men stay home with the children. I highly doubt most women are ready to pass the stay-at-home-torch to men. That is one of those nifty little perks that women are clinging onto for dear life, much like courtship rituals. Dutch, anyone?
Stay-at-home fathers are becoming more common. However, experts suggest that the economy was responsible for the increase. Breadwinning man marries woman; man loses job; woman becomes breadwinner by default. It is still uncommon for the bride to earn more than the groom. I have attended many weddings. Only once have I seen a woman walk down the isle with a man that had an income smaller than her own.
Personally, I cannot wait for the day when the majority of wives earn more than their husbands. I won’t hold my breath, though.
justme 293
Mark
“doubt most women are ready to pass the stay-at-home-torch to men. That is one of those nifty little perks that women are clinging onto for dear life”
Ever done the stay at home thing? While I loved being at home with my kids when they were young – it is by far the hardest thing I have ever done. No lunch hour, no sick days, no days off, 24 hour on call duty, while your regular hours are from 6:00 AM – 9:00 PM, no vacation (when you go on vacation, you are still working), little to no appreciation (“well, it’s not like you have a real job”), little respect, and no pay. Know why people (men and women alike) do it? NOT because they consider it a “perk”; but because they love their families and make the sacrifice.
Helen 294
justme #293: thank you for telling the truth about childrearing.
You wrote: “While I loved being at home with my kids when they were young – it is by far the hardest thing I have ever done.” While I agree with the second half of your statement (it was the hardest thing I’ve ever done too: much harder than my job), I cannot honestly say I loved staying home with my kids when they were babies. More often than not, it was hideous: being a slave with no peace, no sleep, no time to eat or shower or even pee, dealing with poop and spitup and wailing and complaining and nonstop demands. No intellectual satisfaction, no stimulating company, no cooperative baby willing to nap, no PAY.
So I thank God for two things that saved my life in those early days: daycare, and the fact that the kids keep getting older.
I think women do stay-at-home parenting more often than men not because of a genetic predisposition that makes us more masochistic, but because of tradition and the line of bull we’re regularly fed by society that this is what we’re supposed to want as mothers. Of course fathers want to avoid this; they’re not fools. Society gives them a free pass to do so, and absent all the pressuring messages, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if many women came out in the open and said they didn’t care for this lifestyle either.
(Not that I see what this discussion thread has to do with the original title of this entry, but the discussion did start further up anyway, and some clueless individuals need to understand what it means to stay home with youngsters. *cough cough* Mark, it is not a “nifty little perk.”)
Vicious Velma 295
I have learned not to help a guy in any way if he is interested in me. Let him do all of the “heavy lifting”. Once you show a guy you are willing to do any ‘heavy lifting’ he will stop trying. It will stop without fail, whether you are a 1 or a 10 or an 11. If a guy likes you, he will pay no matter what. The more independent we women act the more guys will be driven off. It is a fact…face it. I have after two horribly failed relationships where I wore the pants…Miss Independent.
M 296
This long, long thread is one of the more depressing I’ve ever read.
I am 51, male, never married, desperately lonely (especially with my mom having now passed) and would absolutely love to be in a relationship and get married. But women have made my dating life a nightmare.
I think this blog pretty much boils down to this. Women want to take on masculine and feminine roles alternately as they see fit, but only want men to take on masculine roles. I could elaborate on droves of idiotic statements made in this thread but why bother; the lack of logic and clear thinking and the unspeakable double standards are nauseating.
If women were in men’s shoes it would be truly shocking how quickly they would discover and acknowledge how much it sucks.
Paragon 297
I don’t think men necessarily enjoy being single(unless they are having lots of casual sex – which of course, is an option
deprived of most men).
It’s just that most hard-luck cases have learned to reconcile their solitary fate, and suffer in relative silence(esp considering that the masses of unrequited men, are not deemed a sympathetic social concern).
Mac 298
I think the whole approach “what women want” vs. “what men want” is wrong. Not every man wishes to be single, as not every man wishes to be in a relationship. The same holds for women. Each person, regardless of gender, has a personal idea of what would make them happy or at least satisfied in life.
Another thing, I believe to be wrong in this approach, is the view of a man or a woman as a “means of satisying the partner’s needs”. What about feelings? Are we all out there to be of service to a prospective partner? Is it impossible for a man or a woman to fall in love or (if this is too difficult and impossible to happen) care for someone?
Carla 299
This is an absolute pile. Men enjoy being single to a certain point in their lives, but when they get older they are more likely to commit suicide than women.
Women are more independent. I think you need to do some more research before trying to educate massive amounts of both men and women and making these types of statements parading them around as fact.
Men are also more emotional than women are hence why they hide everything inside. They are very fragile in comparison to women. It takes strength to talk and not to hide feelings.
Studies have been done on the male and female brains and the differences would shock you had you taken the time to actually do some real research.
Good day.
JJ 300
I agree with Maria! She has learned from others’ mistakes and bad experiences which has been enough to save her the stress. Excellent!
CW 301
I think its because in today’s society where marriage and family is no longer the focus or value, the men can get the milk for free. Men can easily get sex and female companionship outside of marriage or commitment. A great many dating situations at the woman’s disadvantage did not exist prior to the sexual revolution. In my father’s generation (World War II Vet), stringing women along for several years to find out he wasn’t going to marry her was not a common occurrence. These days, women have to exercise intentional dating to ensure they are not in this situation. Sigh, this is today’s dating reality for women. Hence, the need for dating coaches since women are basically going at it on their own and no one to hold the prospective suitor accountable for their actions during dating.
Karl R 302
CW said: (#301)
“I think its because in today’s society where marriage and family is no longer the focus or value,”
Marriage and family is no longer the focus or value for men andwomen. If it’s true for both sexes, then it can’t be the cause of one sex being unhappier than the other.
CW said: (#301)
“Men can easily get sex and female companionship outside of marriage or commitment.”
Women can easily get sex and male companionship outside of marriage and commitment too. It seems likely they can do so more easily than men. If the ease of obtaining sex and companionship is the cause, women should enjoy being single more than men do.
Carla said: (#299)
“Men are also more emotional than women”
Men and women are equally emotional (according to a 1998 Vanderbilt University study).
Carla said: (#299)
“Men enjoy being single to a certain point in their lives, but when they get older they are more likely to commit suicide than women.”
Correlation does not prove causation. For example, the personality traits which predispose someone to committing suicide (like depression) may interfere with forming romantic relationships.
Furthermore, your statement doesn’t even indicate a strong correlation. Men commit suicide more often than women at any age. Single women commit suicide more often than married/cohabiting women. (The same is true for men.)
Carla said: (#299)
“Studies have been done on the male and female brains and the differences would shock you had you taken the time to actually do some real research.”
You imply that you’ve done “some real research”, but you didn’t cite to any actual studies. Nobody appears to have published a study which supports your conclusions regarding suicide. The CDC doesn’t provide enough granularity in their data to even demonstrate the correlation that you claim exists.
Take the time. Do some research. Come back with some actual facts.
Still-Looking 303
CW@301 -
you stated, “Hence, the need for dating coaches since women are basically going at it on their own and no one to hold the prospective suitor accountable for their actions during dating.”
I’m completely baffled by this statement. Who should be responsible for holding the prospective suitor accountable? A judge? A jury? An executioner (or a male relative with a shotgun)? Once that is determined, then what actions are going to be punished?
If a man doesn’t like the actions of a woman he is dating, the options are simple:
1. Communicate his displeasure in an effort to cause change;
2. Ignore the behaviour; or,
3. Find a new girlfriend.
Of course the options are the same for women – there is no need for anyone else to hold the suitor accountable. Are you suggesting that women are powerless?
Tia 304
I strongly disagree with #4. First of all, you’re quoting Charlie Sheen, who is waaaaay out of the realm of a normal man. I don’t think all men have the ability to separate love & sex. It may be generally accepted, but I reject it. I think men who consider some women “only good for sex” are not the majority, and do so for macho, societal reasons moreso than out of biology. There is *no* scientific evidence proving that men are supposed to separate sex and love. None. Even men who do separate the two long for relationships after a while. Which demonstrates tha they are obviously not built to sleep around, emotionless, like animals.
I think men who are sexually conservative are better. They re honest with themselves. Men that sleep around are not good boyfriend material, and never would be. They’re not affectionate, and cannot be trusted. People all have a longing to be loved, it is not a feminine thing.
Studies are now showing that single men are *more* willing to commit than single women. Look it up. Times are changing.
Donna 305
@brit
- You sound pathological. Everyone needs love, regardlss if men (or women) do not acknowledge it. Everyone.
Evan is definitely not as “sensitive as they come.” I would definitely not choose a man like you! I want one who is open about what he feels and thinks, not one trying to be a hardass and hold it all in. I mean, 35 years without a relationshp? By choice? That’s hard to believe. I think it has something to do with his looks. You underestimate women terribly, as we can identify with work and relationships. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.
Considering how long you were out of a relationship, I don’t see how you can claim to be an expert on the opposite sex! From your mom, and a couple of her friends? Please. Everyone is *different.*
Plus, sex is not a reason to delete relationships from your life. If you are avoiding relationshps for casual sex, then you need to reevaluate your priorities/personality. It is a cold, dead end, for both sexes. Even men who engage in casual sex quit after a while, because people are not built for that. We’re built to bond, and care for one another on deep levels (unlike animals). So, a man that was actually into casual sex, even if it is in the past, is still worthless 95% of the time. They were not taught to respect women, and probably not raised in a loving home. That’s my honest 2 cents.
Ronnie 306
Funny how like articles on health & nutrition, for example, opinions on the subject of ‘singles’ can be pretty disparate and conflicting. I mean, I know I’ve often read in blogs, forums, etc..that it’s largely men who have a harder time being single than women do, and seek out ways to avoid being single, more than women of their age. I reckon many (not all) single men can find themselves drifting, being disorganised, feeling pressured, and neglecting their health etc….when they’re single for any extended period of time. But there are equally plenty of other single men who are just not driven enough to commit to a full-on relationship. And I’d argue that’s perfectly fine, IF that’s what they are comfortable with. They have varied interests, and uses of their time, and prefer the independence, freedoms and hassle-free lifestyle that being single affords them.
I’m 37, male, and a pretty settled, content, self-sufficient single, myself. I like women a lot, enjoy their company, and am not exactly entirely opposed to having a romantic, cohabiting partner, either. But it isn’t happening for a while, though it hasn’t made me remotely desperate at all. Unlike some people (men and women), whether single or in a relationship, I’ve never been afraid of, or disliked being alone, without the constant company and chatter of other people etc… In fact, I love being alone to a great extent—and socialise, mainly on my own terms, and time. I have not foresworn marriage, but I don’t greatly aspire to it either. Bachelors, like all men in general, come in all shades and stripes of personalities and lifstyles, so the obnoxious old stereotypes about them are mostly wrong-headed and unfair.
I honestly feel that MEN are no more or no less, afraid of/hate being single than women. It’s about the specific person, not the gender. in question.
Dave 307
There’s no real secret to why more men are choosing to be single. Over the past 50 years the needs of men have slowly been eroded by society in place of heralding all of a woman’s needs. Women have no expectations thrust upon them anymore when it comes to meeting a man’s needs so why should she. Society tells her that she is perfect just the way she is and she deserves nothing less than a prince. And if she isn’t being emotionally satisfied at any given moment then her spouse/boyfriend is at fault.
Also, if marriage is the end result of a serious relationship then men also have another reason to avoid it. It’s called Divorce and it is HEAVILY skewed in the woman’s favor, even in our so-called equal rights society. Why risk losing everything, or at least half of everything you’ve earned and a great amount of time with your children should you have any?
With the advent of online dating and today’s woman’s liberal sexual morality, the question isn’t why are men not upset by being single, the question is why should we be?
STRAIGHT MAN SAYS 308
i am one of so many men today that hates to be single and alone again. i was married at one time and i was a very caring and loving husband, that never cheated on my wife. but she was the one that cheated on me, and i was very commitment to her as well. like the old saying goes, you can’t turn a hoe into a housewife. i hate going out to the clubs on the weekends, and so many women these days like to play games. this shows you how many low life women that are now out there today, when there are many of us serious men that really want to meet a good woman today, and have that relationship. it really hurts me to see that so many men and women were very lucky enough to meet each other, and have a family now as well. i certainly would have wanted the same thing, and i certainly do feel that GOD is punishing me. why should so many other people have a life, and not me? what makes these people SO VERY SPECIAL TODAY? in this day in age, there are just too many ROTTEN WOMEN, WITH AN ATTITUDE PROBLEM, which makes it worse now for us men.
maks 309
Curious article. For me it’s a very simple decision. Let me explain:
Single (as I am now):
- sex anytime I want it (3 of my ex-girlfriends are always happy with no-strings-attached sex)
- friendships (a few close guy friends from all the way abck in high school, a few close female friends from about the same time)
- job (I love my job and it pays me enough to affor anything I want or need)
- car (I drive a corvette and work on it whenever I want)
- hobbies (I skydive and am working on my pilot’s license in my free time)
- free time (nobody is making me do anything, my time is mine alone, I owe nobody favors, and I do not need to go shopping for half a day with anyone)
Relationship offers me:
- ?
Looks like nothing. I am happy as I am, as you can see. I’ve dated (and still do at times date) girls, in hopes of finding one that will replace that question mark with at least *ONE* item that I can put on my “pro-relationship” list. So far all I’ve seen is princesses who want me to waste > 20 hours a week on them, large amounts of money on them, and offer no upsides.
I hate to sound like an a**hole (as I am sure you’ll quickly accuse me of), but realistically for a male in my position, relationships are pointless.
S Sick 310
I never do this but I have something to say way down here that I doubt you’ll read.
Having close female friends or a good relationship with your Mother is not the same as sharing admiration and respect, love and caring or having true intimacy with another human being in your life.
I could never believe that men or women are truly content begin single.
The breath you are taking right now arose out of the one you just took. The moment you are having right now arose out of the previous one. The relationships you’ve had take you to your next experience. But we might not know it.
Do you really think anyone chooses to never date or care about someone else?
Lucy 311
Because men have a lot of expectation thrust upon them so they want to enjoy time without responsibilities before settling down. Then it’s also because I think men have to feel like everything is complete in their life – career, social life etc before they feel that there is space in their life for a long term committed relationship. And when it comes to dating men bear the brunt of making it all happen. That’s a lot of work. Realising that, you want to focus on other areas of your life and not make it such a big priority – otherwise you might go crazy!
It’s totally healthy to not feel like you need a relationship but it’s great to want one. I think that’s what we should all look for anyway.
Even though I’ve not had great experiences in dating, I’m by no means bitter about the opposite sex. I know how hard it is for both genders. I agree with what someone else said. You fail to see the whole picture if you think that people who engage in casual sex are somehow blind to feeling romantic love.
Imari 312
It’s because men need to give all the attention and lose the things they enjoy doing, while women gain the attention, and don’t generally lose anything they enjoy doing (generally speaking.) In short most women are needy, and most men are not. They don’t really NEED the emotion and attention from a woman as much as a woman needs that from her shield.. her man.
J. Robb 313
Let’s face it, in today’s world a guy can be satisfied with a job, good friends, beer, and online porn. Women are great to fantasize about but in reality have been a huge disappointment to men. 5-6 minutes online and all that “longing for a woman to be with” goes right out the window without a dollar spent or a passive aggressive attack.
Like one of my friends said, “If it floats, flies, or f**ks: rent it.”
Mickey 314
Maks #309: I’m with you…you are preaching to the chior!!!
Aaron 315
Im 27 male and never even TOUCHED a female (Im not gay) in my whole life! This problem didnt used to bother me (Probably cause i used to drink alot) but since i live a few feet from my parents bedroom (Never moved out) i have to hear them having sex which bothers me so much i bought earplugs!! Im slowly becoming a Misogynist and care so little about women that if i saw a woman with a broken leg laying on a deserted country road i would laugh and maybe film it for youtube. I have had a few women approach me at bars (when i still cared about women) and such but i cant for the life of me figure out when a girl is hitting on me! For example this one girl i gave a cigarette to later came to me and caressed my face and telling me how good looking i am and all i did was say “Thanks” a few times and walked away leaving her standing there bewildered. My friends later told me i was being hit on and was surprised! I think deep down i dont want to be like this but society made it this way!
John 316
This is just my two cents: I’m a guy and I absolutely hate being single for the exact same reasons as Elaine
Nate 317
I’m a single guy who wishes he was in a relationship, I’m very much a hopeful romantic and want to take “the one” on awesome dates and have a long lasting meaningful relationship. Sadly society either looks at me as ‘gay’ as i do tend to be more openly emotional and emphasize and listen or tells ladies to stay away from a young man as myself. I do put myself out there but have yet to find it, here’s hoping.
Julia 318
@Nate stop being such a pushover, women hate that! I am not telling you to be a jerk but stop putting women on pedestals! They are immediately looking down on you, women want a man she can respect. Be that guy, be every ounce as sensitive as you are just don’t kiss women’s asses.
Clare 319
Bravo Julia! You said it very well.
No woman desires a man she can push around. Nate, I’m sorry you’ve had this experience, but start taking the lead, being sure of yourself, and commanding just a wee bit of power and respect, in addition to being the lovely guy you are, and watch your luck with women turn around
Susan 320
l am 57 years old, I have dated 32 men in 16 years, only 5 have I had a second date because of his choice or mine. I get close to a real relationship it seems like the words the person said at this close time of accepting each other for life partners completely changes, and stops… I have stopped one out of 5 but the other 4 they backed off and wanted more from me like all the bills paid, take care of them, could not come to terms of a real move in a commitment. I teach coping skills to students, I set boundaries, I have now gotten to a point that I hate dating at all and cant understand why 2 people cant just be theirselves and honest, make a decision and enjoy being together. It is like a past history for the guy, haunts him and he backs off. I have tried not returning calls, doing my own thing, not being available to date… which seems so stupid and not like me at all why cant people just be honest. And finally I find one man who seems to be honest and straight. And again, at this time, I cant hardly trust any more due to the enormous numbers of people who are such players and unable to just be honest. In 32 dates 2 have said the honest truth.. we dont click, your nice and beautiful but we have nothing in common, and I too agreed. what is wrong with this setting men and women, not being honest and letting each one know how they really feel.. it would be such a pleasant surprise for me and for others..
franko 321
i am one of so many men that hates to be single, while there are a lot of men that enjoy it. i am a straight man that was married at one time, and i was a very caring and loving husband before she cheated on me. i never mistreated her in anyway, and i was very happy with my marriage. i was just too good for her in the first place, and many women today just can’t seem to be with just only one man anymore. i hate going out as it is, because it is like a game trying to find another woman that can be faithful. i now come across so many nasty women with their attitude problem, and it is very hard to start a normal conversation with them. now that we have so many LESBIANS out there today, it is much harder for us serious men that are looking.
Jennifer 322
Franko #321
Unless your ex-wife cheated on you with a woman, I don’t think lesbians are responsible for your relationship/dating woes.
Cindi 323
My needs are 95% met also. I work and own my own home. My boyfriend is an added plus. Women need to get a clue
marymary 324
I loved being single, so much so that I held the boyfriend at arm’s length for months. we are growing closer and closer and I find the thought of losing my single lifestyle quite daunting. Sure men may love to watch videos and whatever but I love my own time too, spending the evening trying on outfits, accummulating stacks of shoes and handbags, being able to work out at home and perform my various grooming regimes without anyone around, love coming home to the peace and quiet of just me, the bed to myself, afternoon naps, sleeping and rising as I wish. Oh man, I’m getting quite teary eyed about it.
I read this on another blog which made me laugh out lout in self-recognition. “Forget the idea that no man is an island. That’s rubbish” and from Rudyard Kipling, something like “I am the cat that walks by myself and all roads and people are alike to me”.
I’m just going to have a quite moment of mourning for my receding single life *bows head*.
Ed 325
Why am I not in a relationship?
1. Because I usually use the Internet to find women
2. And I have good taste (i.e. no fat chicks)
3. Therefore, I’m competing against every other guy out there for the top 5% online
4. And I don’t drive a BMW, nor do I have any other financial assets that draw these 5%
5. So, nobody wants to give me a chance
6. In addition, when I do find an attractive woman who will give me a chance, she has a fatal flaw, such as a bastard child with ADD living with her full time
7. Also, I am a recovering addict
8. Therefore really nobody gives me a chance
9. And the other reasons mentioned in this article that basically states that women want to much (which is entirely true)
10. Hence, I’m destined to be single for the rest of my life
11. Which is ok
But…porn doesn’t entirely cut it, and sex with prostitutes is expensive and dangerous. So, I’m looking for ways to lower my sex drive and libido. I haven’t found anything useful in this realm. I’ve often wondered if it would be better to date the most wonderful girl in the world or to forget about women entirely. I think the latter would be better. Relationships vanish.
Andrew 326
20% of guys sleep with top 80% of women.
The bottom 20% of women sleep with the rest of the guys.
The problem is women in their 20s who are at their prime WASTE time chasing bad boys, hoping they are the one to change his ways. As they get older they realise it will never happen and open up to dating ‘nicer’ guys.
Unfortunately these ‘nicer’ guys are now earning a decent living and can now afford to be choosy. They think why should I waste my time with a girl that slept around who has been pumped and dumped by too many guys. Why buy the cow when you get the milk.
The circle repeats and women complain no good man.
If you are in your 20s, stop chasing the bad boys and find a good man. You can afford to be choosy at THAT AGE.
As a woman you have 2 choices in your 20s, either sleep around young but will probably end up with a not so best match in the future, because you will have emotional scars from being rejected by guys who you gave your body.
Or you can find a good man now whilst young, but you will have to give up sleeping around.
Now guy wants a promiscuous wife.
Fiona 327
I am not sure why men think that women who are still single in their 30s have been sleeping around. Most have had relationships that didn’t work out which is hardly the same thing.
Fiona 328
i am also confused as to why so many men get angry that women have had bad experiences with men they met before them. That seems pretty messed up to me. I don’t get angry with men who are divorced because they chose the wrong woman the first time around so why should they be angry because I had ex boyfriends that broke my heart? I just don’t get it. I also note these men seem to be very bitter towards women but not towards the 20% of men that are causing all the trouble. Very odd
Evan Marc Katz 329
@Fiona: 20% of men cause all the trouble by sleeping with the most women? And 100% of women are innocent? For every man who is guilty of sleeping around, there’s a woman who’s equally guilty of choosing him (not to mention whatever her personal flaws are, as well). Instead of complaining that men “use” women, how about women stop letting themselves get used by understanding that sex has nothing to do with love for most men early in the dating process. Let’s try to stay objective, shall we?
Fiona 330
Evan, I do understand that. As a naive 20 something that just wanted to meet a nice man and stick with him for life I certainly did not understand that. Does that mean that because I offered love and got my heart broken a few times because I didn’t know any better mean that I now deserve men like Andrew being angry with me for making bad choices in my 20s? I don’t think so. I am merely pointing out that it is interesting how bitter some of these men are towards women for choosing and being hurt by other men when they were younger but they harbour no bitterness towards the men that do the hurting. Now that doesn’t sound too objective to me
Evan Marc Katz 331
I will point out, Fiona, that you’re very sensitive to bitterness from men, but not as judgmental about bitterness from women. Probably because you don’t date women. So let’s agree that bitterness is an ugly trait that will not help anyone get lucky in love. And let’s remember that a man can’t treat you poorly if you a) don’t sleep with him and b) don’t stay with him after he starts treating you poorly.
Fiona 332
Evan, being hurt and being bitter aren’t the same thing. I am not going to judge anyone for being hurt but, at least on this blog, I haven’t seen a lot of true bitterness towards men from women. Most of the women seem to cope with their hurt by just giving up rather than wishing all sorts of bad things on men. However the variety of comment that states: “hey think why should I waste my time with a girl that slept around who has been pumped and dumped by too many guys” is not of the same ilk.
Re the 20% of men sleeping with 80% of women (if that is even true), I merely meant to point out that the only people benefitting from that situation would be 20% of men. The other 90% of the population seems to have little to gain from that situation so it beats me why so many men are keen on blaming women for it.
Sara 333
Michael (17)
I am always interested in finding out the “whys” of people. Why they think the way they do is one of them. It’s not to “convince” me of anything, it’s simply because the differences in people have always fascinated me.
lonely-depressed 334
Well,
I am a man, 32, been without sex for one year.
Low self esteem since breaking up with my gf and I feel like I cannot “get laid” just like that.
I have a huge hole in my heart from loneliness and a lack of intimacy.
I feel like your article title is an offense.
I need long sexual intercourse, intimacy.
I dont have it and i feel stuck in a hole.
Women can get laid and find men to take home MUCH easier than men can.
Thanks a lot for nothing.
Lonely guy – London.
Steven D. Timm 335
This is an interesting topic!! Interesting indeed!!
I am a single male. 34 years old. Never married and don’t have kids nor am I sexually active. Only been in one relationship and that was in my early twenties, and that broke up because she wanted to get married and have kids and I did not.
I absolutely love being single!!! I love being able to throw my hunting or fishing tackle in my car whenever I want, or to call a friend up and go out to dinner. I have friends around me that respect the fact that I do not want to get married or have kids and they don’t bring it up or try to change my mind. I am not excluded nor do I feel like I am an outcast at social events because I don’t have a partner either. In fact, not having a partner at social events is kind of freeing!!
When I get home from work, I can come home to a quiet house without kids running around or a wife or girlfriend telling me what I am NOT doing!!
I truly don’t understand what all the fuss is about with people going banannas because they can’t find someone!! Why not just be happy with who you are and relish in that? Now that is not to say that finding a significant other is bad per say, but people go overboard in my opinion regarding finding someone to make them “happy”. I am a firm believer that there is only one person on this Earth that can make “you” happy, and that is “you”!!
Just my 2 cents on the issue!!
God Bless you all!!
Steve Timm
Julie 336
All that makes sense. As a 40+ year old woman, single now for 5 years after a very good marriage I understand where men are coming from. I miss my husband (he died)’s friendship, commitment and regular sex! But I’ve never felt the need to change a man, I’m not fussy, not looking for a rich husband, or someone to look after me. Here, I suppose I’m very different from my single friends. I know a lot of women my age who are looking for a man who probably only exists in the 0.0001% of the population – richer than them (they don’t want someone living off them they say), the same age or a little older (the age gap makes them uncomfortable), handsome etc etc and be sure they will not be satisfied then. Many of my friends have dated perfectly nice men and discarded them as they were too ‘short’, too ‘slovenly’ or the man has not chased them enough.
Francis 337
Don’t believe the HYPE ladies. These articles will completely JADE your views and make it that much harder for good men to connect with you! Most single women have become tremendously unrealistic with their checklists for viable male companionships! Throw the clipboard away, stop being superficial, and get over yourselves, already! Real life isn’t HOLLYWOOD, REALITY TV, or what you read in these pathetically pointless magazine articles! Men just want to feel special! We are tired of being graded, judged, psychoanalyzed, ridiculed, compared, and demoralized by UNREALISTIC WOMEN who would much rather continue being MISERABLE going after the same type of selfish DUDES who don’t have any respect for women! THAT’S why men don’t mind being SINGLE! We would rather have no relationship + NO BAGGAGE than a relationship + BAGGAGE.
Ben 338
Living in the Midwest, all I see are conservative gold digging women. Girls that were brought up being treated and spoiled like a righteous princess and as they got older they insisted on the same treatment from the men they dated. Most women seek after their fathers. They want the big house, nice car and bragging rights for vacations on their Facebook status. You kind of women make me want to puke. Absolutely nothing but a bunch of freeloaders. What really pisses me off is you think you are entitled to this. I don’t make a ton of money, I’m not tall, I’m not a dog that will take commands by laying down and told not bark. Not all men are great bread winners. So where does that leave us? Casted off to the side because we can’t provide for the luxuries you lusted after from what society says you deserve? I support myself by working. I don’t look for handouts or wish I could find someone that could do it for me so I could have nice shoes and look great for others pissing competitions with in your circle of friends. Maybe you women should wake up in this recession and start being realistic with your needs. Not everyone is a lottery winner. You may never have the big house and shiny new car. Wake the F up. Facebook is primarily being used by women because of their social needs and sick comparisons of who has what, who got married, who had a baby… This is what makes us men better, we could care less, the crap you think you need everyday to be seen in and posted about. Makes all but the tomboy girls attractive.
Mickey 339
Francis 337 & Ben 338:
I’m with you!!! Preach on!!!
Aisling 340
@ Ben: Your points are well-taken. However, I am a *liberal* Midwestern woman. A lower maintenance woman than me simply does not exist. Since I have horrible feet, (small, wide, high arches) I only have one pair of shoes in each of the basic colors. I agree with you that we do not need a fraction of the shit we think we do. I closed my Facebook account because, frankly, I was sick to death of just the things you are. Plus, I was getting into too many political fights with my conservative friends/relatives. I made the right decision. Don’t miss it at all.
My dad was a union-president asbestos worker
who taught me from an early age that I had to work for everything I got. Though a devout Catholic and the product of his time (WWII vet) he was proud of my independence and that I would never be dependent upon a man for my livelihood.
Not all women are status-seeking shallow individuals. Just as (I hope) not all men want to date women 10-20 years younger.
I am not looking for anyone to take care of me. But I would like someone who pays his bills and is a responsible adult. I see too many men my age ( I am 51) who are happy to subsist on disability or to be just getting by. I may be a liberal, but I definitely believe in individual responsibility.
Aisling 341
@ Steven Timm #335 Totally agree with you!
justme 342
to Andrew (326).
I would argue that any man that describes any woman as “pump and dump” is not a good man and as such, not the kind of man I would be interested in at any age.
Steve Timm (335)
Excelllent point for everyone! Be happy where you are!
Julie (336)
I am in the same age group as you. I don’t know of any of my single friends who write of guys due to the things you list. My group of friends are looking for men of integrity and character.
Michael 343
“Men make, on average, $10,000 more per year than women do. Men with BAs earn $16,000 more per year than women with BAs. Men have lower expenses on clothing, make up, grooming, and a slew of other things. Thus, most men do not have the same financial incentives to get married than women do.”
Men make on average more because they work on average more for their careers BECAUSE it is all they have. By the time the average man is 30 he has worked 3000 hours more then the average working woman. We don’t take jobs to play the field in our 20s waiting for ‘Mrs Right’ to take us away from it all, our career defines our standard of living. We don’t marry up, we don’t choose to be a Nurse because we will get satisfaction from it knowing we can marry the Chief of Staff because we can’t. When our female co-worker is promoted instead of us we don’t just lose the job, we lose the opportunity to date her because she is dating UP.
We may not spend as much on haircuts but we spend far more on the things that women look to us for; educations, cars, clothes, apartments. We spend farrrrr more on dating since we pay for every single drink, date, taxi and most of the relationship.
Women don’t want to marry more because their own finances are only 90% of men’s, their own finances are 90% of men’s because their goal in life is still to share the finances of a man who earns more then them and a good deal of their efforts go into that.
jay says 344
certain men and women like being single, and many of them don’t. i am a straight man that hates being single, especially after a divorce. now that i am in my late fifties, it is very hard to find a good woman again at my age. and i really don’t want to rush into a relationship again, just for the sake of not being alone. when i was married at the time, i was a very good husband and never mistreated her. i was definitely the one woman man at the time, knowing what i had at home and did not have to go out looking for it anymore. now that there are so many low life loser women out there today, it certainly makes it much more difficult for me. and years ago, much more women were certainly much more educated than today and were very committed to their men back then. plus many women accepted their men for who he was, and he did not have to have a lot of money to be accepted. it seems that once women’s lib took over, it really messed up their brain. so many women today think that they are all that, but your not. then again, it is these type of women that will grow old having no one.
marymary 345
but jay if those women end up alone it doesn’t have any bearing on you, they aren’t the women you want anyway.
both men and women need to stop blaming the whole other half of the population and look to what they can change about themselves, starting with negative beliefs and pessimism.
i,d say the same if you were a woman. I said the same to myself. I still do from time to time when I catch myself being gloomy.
Karl R 346
jay said: (#344)
“years ago, much more women were certainly much more educated than today”
I don’t know what country you’re from, but that’s certainly not true in the U.S.
quoting the article:
“For all types of higher education, the number of women earning degrees is rising faster than the number of men earning the same degree.”
If you’re from the U.S., I would have to say that none of your observations about women are based on reality.
starthrower68 347
I have a master’s degree. I earned that for myself and no other reason. I do not flaunt it to emasculate men. I don’t even bring it up unless it happens in the course of conversation. As I do not make a big deal out of it with a man, if he’s turned off or intimidated by the fact that I have it, then I can’t do anything about that.
Lucy 348
@marymary – I really agree with you. I’ve worked through some negativity and it has freed me up so much. I’m not about to switch into false expectations or anything like that but so far I’ve realised how much negative beliefs hold a person back. I used to be attracted to people who reflected my negativity which is now thankfully not the case. It only left me feeling worse when I dated a guy with negative self-beliefs because they put that burden on me.
I’ve noticed that I don’t find men attractive when they share some of my qualities, the qualities that i consider weaknesses or that I wish to detract from. So I can’t find emotional men as attractive because I am an over-sensitive worrier and I’m not a fan of it. I don’t like perfectionists because I’m a perfectionist myself…well you know what I mean. Then I feel very attracted to men who exemplify qualities I’ve always wanted to have in myself such as the ability to perform well in public speaking. I wonder if it is true for anyone else that they are turned off by people who seem to represent a part of themselves which they do not like. I’m surprised how much of what I find attractive is tied to my own ego.
Anyway, I’ve totally steered away from topic…Ah…Well my view is that the reason why men don’t hate being single as much as women is that they are more in control of their attractiveness than women are. By that I mean that their attractiveness is not so focussed on ever fading beauty and they tend to get more attractive as they age. So they can afford to wait. I think some men can get too comfortable with that thought and find themselves being older with some of the higher quality women having already been snapped up.
Okay so I’m only in my early twenties. I have noticed that most women of my age feel a lot of uncertainty over whether they will find a good man at the right stage in life and where their life will go in general. I can’t quite put my finger on it but men my age aren’t like that at all. They feel certain that they will achieve and that they will get married and settle down. They seem so much more in control. I find this quite irksome in some young men because they have over-inflated opinion about what they can bring to a relationship and don’t have enough humility or consideration of what a woman is getting out of the deal. They can compartmentalise so easily. I hate the feeling that I might be another box to tick.
@Andrew (326) – Wow. I feel quite aggrieved that you’ve tarred all twenty-something women with the same brush. I have never been the least bit attracted to bad boys. I did find myself in a violent relationship but he showed no signs of it straight off. And really he had everyone fooled and still does. I’m not prepared to put my dignity at risk by telling people what he’s really like.
I think some of your points are true whether I like it or not – i.e. women lose value when they get into self-destructive patterns which exhibit in their sexual behaviour. But I feel a bit on edge about the way in which you put it across. I think you’re being overly simplistic. I do not like your simple dichotomy between ‘nice boys’ and ‘bad boys’. I do not put men into boxes like that. Either I’m attracted to them or I’m not. One thing is that I can’t find a guy attractive if he doesn’t have his stuff together as a guy and it seems like a lot of men my age haven’t quite reached what they perceive to be their potential. I think men are better company when they feel that way about themselves. If I date someone I want to feel safe knowing that he can take care of me and has control over his life. That way I can look up to him and admire and love him as the man he is. If I don’t feel that I can get that feeling with a guy, then I think it’s unfair of me to go down that path with him.
I also wish to point out that “nice” does not equal “good”.
jay says 349
to marymary and KarlR, even though you don’t agree with me i do speak the truth. many men like me do not like being single, and i will admit that i am one of them. i would certainly say in the times that we live in today, much more women like being single and do enjoy their freedom. there are a lot more women nowadays making a lot more money than many of us men do, and they seem to have a need to want as many boyfriends as possible instead of just having one. like i said before, i was married and very happy at the time before she turned out to be a WHORE. lets face it, a woman who cheats is certainly not an ANGEL. don’t you agree? and yes, i am sure there are a lot of men today that enjoy being single. i am a straight man that would love to find a good woman again, instead of being by myself. since GOD created men and women, i would love very much to share my life with a woman again. makes very good sense to me, and doesn’t it make sense to you? it sucks being alone and single for me because, many of my friends were VERY EXTREMELY LUCKY to have met the love of their life and have a family today that i would have loved to have as well. i seem to meet the VERY LOW LIFE type of women instead of a real honest good one, and you really can’t blame me for being so very bitter. it seems that GOD blessed so many other people out there, but forgot about me.
Sara 350
@Jay I used to feel the same as you. I only met men who treated me like dirt, etc, and I was pretty bitter as well. Then someone pointed out to me that I was the common denominator in each relationship. You have to do some soul searching and ask yourself why all the women you meet are like that, because not all women are. I think it could be partly that you expect women to behave a certain way, so the only women you are attracting are those women. I’m sorry you feel the way you do because I know how rough it is when you are alone and it seems that everyone around you has someone special. I think a lot of us are going through the same thing. But not all women are whores, and not all men are abusive jerks.
Good luck to you.
Sara
Karl R 351
Jay, (#349)
Unlike your previous post (#344), you managed to include a few observations that match up to reality. I’m sure you don’t enjoy being single. I’ve met other men who feel the same way. And it’s entirely possible that women (in general) are happier being single today than they were in decades past.
Jay said: (#349)
“i was married and very happy at the time before she turned out to be a WHORE. lets face it, a woman who cheats is certainly not an ANGEL.”
I’ve been cheated on before. My ex-girlfriend wasn’t a whore. She was a flawed human being who made a mistake (which had devastating consequences on our relationship).
Furthermore, I don’t consider myself to be an angel. I don’t expect my wife to be an angel. I doubt that you’re an angel. If you expect your girlfriend/wife to be an angel, you will be constantly disappointed.
And it’s my understanding that partners are more likely to cheat if the relationship is already in trouble. Sometimes that trouble was created by the other partner. I don’t know the specifics of your divorce, but I find it extremely unlikely that you were completely blameless. (Even if we assume that you didn’t mistreat your wife, that doesn’t imply that you put an effort into communicating with her, or respected her opinions, or did dozens of other things that are essential to being a good husband.)
I have dated divorcees (and married one), but I had no interest in getting serious with any woman who tried to claim that she was blameless in her own divorce. If someone sees himself/herself as blameless, they will repeat that behavior in their next marriage.
Jay asked: (#349)
“since GOD created men and women, i would love very much to share my life with a woman again. makes very good sense to me, and doesn’t it make sense to you?”
God made lions too. That doesn’t make me want to share my life with one.
And I say that in order to illustrate that the way you express yourself doesn’t make sense.
Jay said: (#344)
“there are so many low life loser women out there today,”
“years ago, much more women were certainly much more educated than today”
“it seems that once women’s lib took over, it really messed up their brain.”
“so many women today think that they are all that, but your not.”
Jay said: (#349)
“i seem to meet the VERY LOW LIFE type of women instead of a real honest good one,”
The good women know they can do better than a man who:
1. thinks they’re a low life loser
2. thinks they’re uneducated
3. thinks women’s lib messed up their brain
4. has a low opinion of them
5. thinks they’re bad and/or dishonest
6. is bitter and blames women (and God) for the situation he’s gotten himself into
I have met women who had a similarly low opinion of men, and I have thanked God for keeping me out of relationships with those women.
jay says 352
to Sara, thank you very much for your support, and i really should be more positive.
Mickey 353
Jay:
Cut your losses and just walk away. I can understand what you’re saying, and I will reiterate that the so-called rewards of relationships just aren’t worth the risk and aggravation.
Sara 354
@Karl
Very well put, thank you. Jay, I hope you find what you are looking for, but keep in mind that Karl is right. Women do have opinions, and if you want to be with a woman, her opinion has to matter, so if you think those things of her, guess what?
And Mickey, I really don’t understand why you come on to a relationship website, which is alledgedly for women, to complain about how badly women treat you and encourage other men to give up hope and remain single. What is your purpose here, if not to “troll”?
Nicole 355
Jay, for a man who claims to want a relationship with a woman, you certainly don’t like them very much.
You seem to long for a world that no longer exists (thankfully) and that gave you a lot more power than you seem to think you have today. Relationships(at least not healthy ones) aren’t about control, and I have to wonder how you treated your ex-wife hearing how you talk about her and women in general.
I have a good friend who is divorce…nothing nasty or scandalous but a split she realized was the best thing for her. I’m aware of the issues she was having on her end, not sure what her husband’s complaints are/were, but I also know she’d tell you any day of the week that 50% of the responsibility for what went wrong is hers. And I think it’s why she’s been able to find another healthy relationship. She didn’t decide that she was an innocent victim of “loser men.”
You should find a way to work through this anger that doesn’t involve calling your ex a whore and understanding what you did wrong, and how not to repeat it.
John 356
As a guy who has been in relationships all his life, I dreaded being single. Now that I am single in my 40′s, its one of the most freeing experiences.
Women are amazing creatures (relax ladies, thats said tongue in cheek) but you have to know what you looking for before you start looking. I would expect the same of any woman I’d be with – if she doesnt know that I will be the right fit for her, then she has no business being with me.
JAY 357
TO NICOLE, first of all, she was the one that cheated on me. stop defending so many women that are TRASH today, and i was the one that was very committed to her. like i said before, so many women these days just can’t commit to only one man anymore like they did years ago. oh gee wiz by the way, do you call a woman that cheats on her husband an angel? i certainly don’t think so, and i never mistreated her in anyway at all for your information. WOW, low life women seem to be everywhere these days. so many of you wonderful women out there today that love to cheat so much, and WOW, you must be very proud of yourselves too. LOSERS.
marymary 358
Jay
you,re correct, you shouldn’t,t be dating, least not yet.
i,d actually be scared to go on a date with you.
Nicole 359
Jay, you are very angry and until you deal with your anger and figure out where you failed since your partner sought refuge/comfort elsewhere, you don’t need to date anyone.
I mean, you don’t even know us and you respond to every post from a female with a fairly angry rant.
You haven’t posted anything there you haven’t insulted your ex and women in general.
There is no way I’d believe the bitterness you so freely throw around here is not showing through in your real life, so I can’t imagine anyone who meets you wants to meet you a second time.
marymary 360
Nicole
I don,t think we should blame the person who,s been cheated on. There are better ways to deal with relationship problems.
but yes it,s unfair and unhelpful to cart the anger into subsequent relationships.
Nicole 361
@marymary, this guy has called women whores and losers and been nothing but hostile. He blames women’s lib for ruining things. That does not sound like anyone that a modern woman could stay with. He is making a choice to be angry and bitter and lash out at people he doesn’t know. He might not have deserved to have gotten cheated on but the ugly side he’s shown here shows that he very likely deserved to get left. And until he gets his anger in check and stops openly hating women, he should not be in a relationship with one.
If you are okay getting called a whore and loser by a stranger on the internet just b/c you tell him to get his anger in check, that is fine. I am not however.
Karl R did a much better job of breaking down the blanket insults that Jay has made to women in general and his ex than i could hope to. And that is best, since as a male, Jay isn’t going to call him a whore.
Karl R 362
Jay said: (#357)
“do you call a woman that cheats on her husband an angel?”
I’m not an angel. You’re not an angel. What on earth makes you think you can get an angel for a girlfriend/wife?
In general, you can’t expect to get someone who is overall better than you. For every place the your partner is better than you, there’s going to be some area where your partner is worse than you. My wife is better looking than me; I’m more intelligent. My wife is more thoughtful than me; I’m more patient.
You’re angry. You’re bitter. You have a low opinion of women’s education. You have a low opinion of women’s morals (just because one woman, your ex-wife, cheated on you). You’re suspicious. You’re judgmental toward women.
Would you accept an angry, bitter, suspicious, judgmental woman who had a low opinion of men’s education and morals? Would you accept a woman who had six different (but equally unpleasant) flaws?
I’m not surprised that your prospects suck. If I ran across a woman who had your attitude, I’d suffer through the first date and then go home and block her email & calls. I may be no angel, but I can do better than that.
There are no angels. There is no woman who is going to take pity on and date an angry, bitter, suspicious, judgmental man just because he’s lonely.
Usually I don’t give spiritual advice on this blog, but in your case I think it ties very closely to your dating problems. Go to your church and talk to your minister. Get him to counsel you and pray with you. You need him to help you learn how to forgive your ex-wife (Matthew 6:14-15), and how to love her like you love yourself (Luke 10:27-28).
If you accomplish those two things, you’ll find your dating life improve.
marymary 363
Karl R
It wasn’t for me but thank you for that scripture. This is the year that I forgave someone who hurt me very much.
Peace on earth, goodwill to all men.
Happy holidays to Evan and family, and to you all.
Jay 364
i am very sorry if i offended anyone with my comments, but i will admit that i am a very low confident man that has been hurt very much by so many women. my story is very true by the way, and being alone and single now really hurts for me, especially for the holidays. women are definitely the much stronger sex when it comes to being alone, and us men are certainly not. i will admit that i do very much hate being single, but many men do enjoy it. since i am in my late fifties, it is much more difficult for me. when i see many very fortunate men and women that have met the love of their life, it hurts me so very much. they really should go to church and pray, and thank GOD very much for having each other and their families which i certainly would have wanted too. now i just go out and hope for the best. PEACE.
Michelle 365
Wow Jay, I’m sorry you feel that way about life. Kindof sad…people want to be around people who are confident, happpy and optimistic.
benignbullet 366
“My assistant says it’s because when they’re single, they can play video games and watch porn, and if they got a girlfriend, she’d insist they give up one or both.”
These types of smug, condescending (even if often tongue-in-cheek) attitudes and assumptions are a large part of why today’s female (at the least) will often find herself perpetually single.
Maybe the reason men do these types of activities – in spite of your availability – is because it’s a lot safer than facing an ever-demanding, malcontented, multi-institutionally privileged being who would rather “compete” with a man than CO-operate.
You need to look in the mirror, ladies, for MORE than just your hair and makeup (manslation: the answer to the article’s title is staring back at you).
Jay 367
to Michelle, wake up and smell the coffee already. lets face it, many women like you still need to grow up anyway. it is just so very sad that you women today think that your so very perfect, but your not.
Stephen 368
I am a 42yo male living in the Washington DC area. I have never been married and nor do I have any children. While I would like to find someone to tackle the world with, but talk about a risky proposition. As a man, we are expected to pay for everything yet we get no respect for being a provider……all we hear is that whatever we have provided was not up to the standards that the modern woman requires. It is unfortunate as my folks have been married for 50+ years and I wanted the same, but today’s male bashing society (especially in divorce courts) just does not provide an environment conducive to establishing a long term commitment.
Karl R 369
Jay said: (#367)
“wake up and smell the coffee already. lets face it, many women like you still need to grow up anyway. it is just so very sad that you women today think that your so very perfect, but your not.”
Michelle (#365) did not say anything that was immature. Michelle did not say (or imply) that she thought she was perfect.
Jay, the only way you could infer that Michelle was immature (or that she believed she was perfect) was if you thought that was true of all women … which seems to be the case.
Jay said: (#364)
“i am very sorry if i offended anyone with my comments,”
So you followed that up by saying something offensive (#367) to the woman who expressed sympathy toward you?
To follow up on what Michelle said (#365), people want to be around people who are confident, happy and optimistic … but even more than that, they want to be around people who are at least civil to them.
You’re not civil. At least not to women. You’re killing your own dating opportunities just with the words that come out of your mouth.
Michelle 370
#367 “to Michelle, wake up and smell the coffee already. lets face it, many women like you still need to grow up anyway. it is just so very sad that you women today think that your so very perfect, but your not”.
What I find in life is comments like these are PROJECTIONS of themselves by the people uttering them. Something to consider…
I’ve made a choice to be grateful for life and everything it has to offer, to force my thoughts to look for evidence to contradict any negative thinking I may incur and to do my best to come from kindness and the heart, even when I’m the one being hurt. All of this was done on a growth path to more maturity than where I was before, and it’sa continuous work in progress
We always have a choice, life is all about our choices.
Cat5 371
WOW!!! There is a lot of animosity expressed between males and females in this thread. It’s painful to read.
@Stephen #386 – “As a man, we are expected to pay for everything yet we get no respect for being a provider……all we hear is that whatever we have provided was not up to the standards that the modern woman requires.”
I’m not sure what you mean by the modern woman or what she requires, as I can only speak for me. But, I can tell you that my requirements/needs in life are a lot different than my mother’s and grandmother’s. This is largely a function of the fact that we have gone from an agricultural based society to an industrialized society, and women have more education. My mom and grandmother never finished high school, let alone college. Since I am college educated living in the city and not living on a farm with a 9th grade education, it’s pretty safe to say, that I have different requirements for my life than they did.
What I look for in a man is someone who actually listens to what my needs are, and attempts to meet them, and not just “provide” me what he thinks I need. I don’t need a man to “provide” a meal or a home for me as I have already had to provide them on my own. But I do need communication, commitment, and compromise from both parties for our relationship work.
David 372
it is like the battle of the sexes here, so many women and men can’t agree with each other. but the truth is, women have become very selfish these days and expect just too much. i have met many nasty women that just don’t know how to talk to men anymore, and i really don’t expect women to be that nasty when trying to start a conversation with them. i can see how bad women have changed over the years, and certainly i don’t think that there were that many nasty ones like today. today when many of us men do approach women, they will either curse at us, and even threaten to call the police on us. now would you say that is normal for a woman to act today?, i would certainly say not. this shows me how many rotten women that do exist today, and they really do need to be much more better educated. women are mainly the cause of the divorce rate being so very out of control today, especially that many of you women love to cheat so much.
Stephen 373
CAT,
Let me see if I can define “the modern woman” for you, and I agree with Josh in #260:
- Entitled
- Never satisfied
- Condescending
- Unempathetic – and will do almost anything to get what she wants
- Not responsible for their own actions
So, here in our industrialized society, women initiate 70% of divorces and the divorce rate hovers around 50%. And what is the main reason for divorce? Money, and that can be the overabundance of it or the shortage of it. “Compromise” is not something that women have to do upon getting married. If the guy doesn’t follow her directions / keep her happy (in the politically correct world this is called compromise), she takes him to court and takes at least half of his assets in divorce.
Have you ever read the book “The Manipulated Male”? It was written by a woman in the 70′s and re-released a few years ago. Anyway, it talks about how Western men are constantly exploited by women. It is quite the interesting read, and the older I get I believe that much of that book to be true. Google it.
The fact is women no longer “need” men, and their pool of choices is getting slimmer. Why? Ever seen a woman marry down? I haven’t. Very rarely does a woman ever support a man, and if she does it is not for very long. I am assuming you are single. Ever been on Match.com? Go do a search like you were a man looking for women. I would say that the majority of women on there do not post their income, but expect a man to make $75K a year or more. In the event that she is some executive, the income requirement goes up.
Anyway, Josh in #244 and JJ in #260 said it best. I guess I will keep watching Animal House……
Cat5 374
@ David #372 = “today when many of us men do approach women, they will either curse at us, and even threaten to call the police on us. now would you say that is normal for a woman to act today?”
I don’t know the answer to the question about whether that is normal behavior for a woman because your comment doesn’t provide enough information about the situation. However, I will say this, if you approach a woman and she threatens to call the police on you, you probably need to re-evaluate where, when, and how you are approaching women. You should also probably re-evaluate who (the women) you are approaching.
marymary 375
The only time I called the police on a man was when my ex choked me until I blacked out. The police treated it as a joke. I also used my life savings to buy an apartment with this man, less than half of which I got back when we broke up. Of course, I was the fool, but it’s a bit rich to hear women being described as entitled money-grabbers.
Not all men are like my ex, or even many of them. Also, not all women are like the villainesses painted here. However, if you’re getting very bent out of shape by the existence of such men or women I hazard that there is something about them that you actually like. Otherwise, why not just move along instead of stopping, engaging, getting enraged and then, shazam! meeting yet another. So many in fact that it affects your judgement of ALL women (or men).
You’re looking for them, truly!
Karl R 376
David said: (#372)
“today when many of us men do approach women, they will either curse at us, and even threaten to call the police on us.”
You’re clearly doing something wrong. I’ve never had a woman threaten to call the police on me. I’ve never had a woman curse at me because I approached her.
After years of approaching women, the worst responses I’ve received have either been a polite “No thanks,” or a woman who just avoided making eye-contact in the first place.
I can think of a few situations that could lead to the extreme reactions you mention. If a woman feels threatened (for example, she’s approached in a parking lot after dark), she may react poorly. If a man fails to take “No” for an answer, she may become substantially less polite as she has to repeat herself. If a man approaches her in a way that’s crude (groping, suggestive comments, staring at her breasts), she may respond negatively.
David said: (#372)
“many of you women love to cheat so much.”
Men cheat more often then men. Women have been catching up to men in recent years, but that’s not exactly going to give you the moral high ground that you seem to be seeking.
David said: (#372)
“women are mainly the cause of the divorce rate being so very out of control today,”
David,
I’m curious. If a woman discovers that her husband is cheating on her, then initiates divorce proceedings, would you say that she caused the divorce, or he did?
Stephen said: (#373)
“it talks about how Western men are constantly exploited by women. It is quite the interesting read, and the older I get I believe that much of that book to be true.”
Nobody can exploit you without your consent/cooperation. If my wife was incapable of compromise, I would have broken up with her during our first year of dating. If she expected me to keep her happy without reciprocating, we wouldn’t have lasted a month.
As marymary implied (#375), there are a small minority of unpleasant men and women out there. There’s no reason to angry just because they exist. It’s much simpler to move on to someone more enjoyable.
Jenni 377
hi all. 2013 New Year…. It all goes down to happiness site I am an attractive 40 / female with not so much friends. It’s sad but I have known to just appreciate the fuel that God gives me and know when I close my eyes he gives me the opportunity for my better day.
I thank God EVERYDAY FOR MAKING ME AT PEACE to love my enemies.
other than that people who make mountains out of mohills can just eat their own cake. 40 more for my own love.
- I am not perfect, I make mistakes but time is in my day and no one elses’. Choose your friends but he/she doesn’t measure to my worth.
Dennis 378
hi everybody, i would be very happy if i just could find a woman to ACCEPT me for myself. and lets face it, many women back then did REALLY accept a man for himself and he did not have to be RICH to be loved. i really wish that we can get those women back again, just like our mother’s were.
Stephen 379
Karl, I am thinking that you and Evan do not fall far apart from the same tree. You know, blame the men for everything and side with the women in the hopes of getting some attention. The fact is, women lie BIGGER than men. Do you watch Chris Rock?? He discusses who is the worst liar?? The end result is “men lie the most, women tell the biggest lies. A man’s lie is ‘I was at Tony’s house’ where a woman’s lie is ‘It’s your baby! He has your hat!’” While Chris Rock is out to sell tickets and get rich, there is some basic truth to that.
The bottom line is that if a woman will get in bed with you, they will get into bed with anyone. You just happened to do the right “dance” for her to go there, and if you buy that you are the only one to have that “dance”, I have some oceanfront property in Arizona for you. Then they will divorce you and take at least half of your assets…..and maybe you have nothing to lose. Dunno. But I re-ask my question….ever seen a woman marry down? I haven’t.
I am learning more and more Albert Einstein’s quote. “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”
Evan Marc Katz 380
Stephen – I take it as a great compliment that you lumped Karl and I together. And I let your last line through, despite the implications that you are calling me an idiot.
As for me, I won’t imply it. I’ll say it. You, sir, are an idiot.
Sara 381
@Stephen-I have asked this before, but I am going to ask again. This is a site for women who are interested in finding a life-partner, mate, spouse, etc…why are there so MANY angry, bitter, misogynistic men posting on here? I spent most of my life into my early 30′s being mistreated by men. Why is this type of thing tolerated on a site for women? Oh, because it’s being run by a man. @Evan, I get that you are running this for “strong, successful women” and I do see myself in those ways, but I’ve had enough of the negative bull from men on here. My being a “strong, successful women” does not mean that I have to ignore what is hateful behavior. I no longer tolerate anyone speaking to me, or in my prescence, this way (“…women are all LIARS!! Women are all WHORES…” Etc., etc.) I don’t go on here and bash ALL men, or anything like that. And it IS allegedly a site for women! I had hoped that I could ignore most of that, and get some good information from the men who are NOT angry or bitter, but it is excessive, and the only way Evan deletes a comment is if someone insults him directly. So, evidently, this is more a site for Evan’s ego than to help women. (I say that, knowing I am running the risk of getting deleted.)
So, Good luck to all who continue to come here, and I can assure you, there are advice sites out there, run by men, that do not tolerate those kinds of nasty, abusive comments from other men.
Evan Marc Katz 382
@Sara - I let your highly insulting comment thru, once again, simply to show the rest of my readers what kind of bullshit I have to put up with.
You suggested that I’m an egotistical misogynist. Really? A guy who spends 10 hours a day focusing on helping women understand and relate to men? Did you notice that my very last post was a pointed rebuke to the real misogynist, Stephen? Evidently not. Because that wouldn’t suit your narrative about what a bad guy I am.
Here’s the deal: I let pretty much everything go on this site because I don’t want to be seen as the guy who censors alternative points of view. What do I block? Personal insults to me and my wife, and personal insults to other commenters. Occasionally something slips thru my hands or my intern’s hands, but for the most part, we cultivate a pretty high level of dialogue on here. Do occasional stupid men troll the site? Sure. But it’s a vast minority of men, don’t you think?
So really, you want me to censor these cretin men instead of allowing them to be heard, but you want me to allow you to be heard, even though you insulted me. Got it. Bye, Sara. You won’t be missed.
Ed 383
What guy, except those with emotional problems, ‘hates’ being alone? Sure, relationships, when healthy, provide good things: sex, companionship and love are nice. But if things aren’t going well and haven’t been going well, guys are (or should be) just fine with being single. Unlike women, most guys don’t need affirmation from the opposite sex to feel alright. Guys are more financially stable than women as they generally earn more. And time doesn’t physically brutalize men like it does with women. Older men can generally still get younger women whereas the opposite generally isn’t true. But mostly, guys are made and taught to be self-sufficient. Women are more comfortable with companionship than being alone. Pop media and tv commercials (my favorite to laugh at is Jared commercials) try to portray the single man as being a ‘loser’, or not having some sought-after quality that a man in a relationship has. The reality for a lot of men is that being single offers them flexibility, freedom and a quality of lifestyle that a man in a relationship can never have. And guys who recognize this have a hard time turning away from it and are generally much more selective with the women they choose to involve themselves with. And this leads to healthier relationships and self-actualization. End of manifesto.
Cat5 384
I have to admit that I’m getting tired of the women are bad and to blame for all the ills of the dating world comments that seem to be popping up here lately (as opposed to three or four years ago). But, I’m also tired of all the men are bad and to blame for all the ills of the dating world comments. Neither type of comment moves the discussion forward in a meaningful way. It just seems to keep the discussion stalled in a negative place. It’s like watching a discussion between the Republicans and Democrats in Washington DC.
Karl R 385
Stephen said: (#379)
“I am learning more and more Albert Einstein’s quote.”
You just quoted Samuel Clemens (better known as Mark Twain).
Were you implying that I’m an idiot, or were you stating your strategy for winning this debate?
Stephen said: (#379)
“The fact is, women lie BIGGER than men.”
Hitler was a woman? He was the originator of ”das Grosse Luge” (translated: the big lie) in his book “Mein Kampf”.
Damn those pesky little facts.
Stephen said: (#379)
“Do you watch Chris Rock?? He discusses who is the worst liar??”
Chris Rock also said, “A man is only as faithful as his options.” Should I use that as evidence that you’re incapable of being faithful?
If you want to provide factual proof for your opinion, you might want to cite a source that’s a little more intellectual than a stand-up comedy routine.
Stephen said: (#379)
“The bottom line is that if a woman will get in bed with you, they will get into bed with anyone.”
If I believed that this statement was “fact”, I wouldn’t be complaining about it on a blog. I would be taking advantage of it by bedding all the hottest actresses in Hollywood.
Stephen,
Why aren’t you doing the smart thing and making these “facts” work for you?
Stephen said: (#379)
“Then they will divorce you and take at least half of your assets…..and maybe you have nothing to lose. Dunno. But I re-ask my question….ever seen a woman marry down? I haven’t.”
Are you defining “down” by the amount of assets? My wife has more assets than I do. If she gets half my assets and I get half hers, I’m ahead.
You define what characteristic matters for “up” and “down” (in your opinion), and I’ll happily supply examples where women have married down. But I’m not going to sit around trying to guess what characteristic matters most to you.
Stephen said: (#379)
“Karl, I am thinking that you and Evan do not fall far apart from the same tree. You know, blame the men for everything and side with the women”
I’m not blaming men. I’m blaming you for your problems with women. I’m blaming Jay for his problems with women. I’m blaming David for his problems with women. Similarly, I blamed Lisa M. for her problems with men (further up the thread).
If you want to blame everyone except yourself for your own problems, I’m going to point out the flaws with that.
I Am Right Says 386
i am in my late fifties and had been married for fifteen years, until my wife cheated on me. lucky that i didn’t have children, but i always had hoped that i was going to have a family before this happened to me. i hate being single and alone again, because most of my friends are settled down with their own life. when your married and have a family, it is a wonderful thing. i did certainly love my wife at the time, and was very committed to her. men are the much weaker sex when it comes to being alone, and women are certainly the much stronger sex. i guess you can say that many women can certainly deal with the loneliness, especially that many of them came from very abusive relationships. i am a straight man that would certainly admit that i hate being alone, and i do hope that i can meet the right woman again to connect with. it is very true what they say, married men will always live much more longer than single men.
marymary 387
i tend to agree. at least women who hate being single can complain about it to their friends. Men tend not to have the same kind of friendships, though maybe they should.
I was in an abusive relationship and then in a relationship with a cheater. I actually loved being single after that, once i had gotten over it, but then I met someone. it can happen even for people with our history!
starthrower68 388
I don’t know that women necessarily hate being alone any less than men do. I know my personal example does not a rule make, but my ex met his current wife 2 months in to our separation. That was in 2003 (or maybe it was 2004). I am still single and haven’t even had what I would consider a serious relationship in that period of time. I don’t even know yet if such a thing even remains in the cards for me.
lisalin 389
Interesting that this is posted just after Evan’s rebuke of Sara: Ed – Guys are more financially stable than women as they generally earn more. And time doesn’t physically brutalize men like it does with women. Older men can generally still get younger women whereas the opposite generally isn’t true.
Is this not insulting to many (most?) women? Is it really a measure of – whatever – that you can get a younger babe? Are you still trying to procreate?
My real question here is whether there are ANY men who really are looking for love, companionship and support on a daily basis from a woman, even if she does look her age, and it is equal to his own? Are there any real people in the male league or should I take all of this to mean all men are players, looking for the next hottest thing and I need to consider never again having the notion of an ongoing romantic (that means we can stay at home and feel happy together) relationship again?
Evan Marc Katz 390
Ridiculous question, Lisalin: “My real question here is whether there are ANY men who really are looking for love, companionship and support on a daily basis from a woman, even if she does look her age, and it is equal to his own?”
Yes. Me. I’m 40. My wife is 43 and looks her age.
lisalin 391
OK, Evan, but you are here as the exception, and are not available
Are there any others….
marymary 392
lisalin
My boyfriend is younger than me, Karmic’s boyfriend is younger than her, Karl R is younger than his wife, (hope you guys don’t mind me taking your names in vain). my sister is older than her husband, my colleague is older than her live-in boyfriend. I know of two marriages of 30+ years where the wife is over ten years older.
It may be an exception but I also think that older men who actually get a “babe” rather than just vaguely wanting one are also the exception. they’re not all in the position of Mick Jagger and Michael Douglas. if a man is dedicated to getting someone much younger than him, let him do that. it doesn’t affect you because you don’t want someone that shallow anyway!
Ed 393
lisalin,
Let me answer your questions:
Is this not insulting to many (most?) women? – Although this is not directed at me, I’ll answer anyway that I’m not here to please you.
Is it really a measure of – whatever – that you can get a younger babe? Are you still trying to procreate? – No and no.
My real question here is whether there are ANY men who really are looking for love, companionship and support on a daily basis from a woman, even if she does look her age, and it is equal to his own? – Are you addressing the entire male population? You should take a survey.
Are there any real people in the male league or should I take all of this to mean all men are players, looking for the next hottest thing and I need to consider never again having the notion of an ongoing romantic (that means we can stay at home and feel happy together) relationship again? – Need your definition of a ‘real person’. And yes, to one degree or another, all guys are ‘players’ by the way we are built. Just as women are built to be drawn to the alpha male, men are drawn to the healthiest prospects for procreation (young and good looking). Give up on romance if you want.
Karl R 394
lisalin asked: (#389)
“Are there any real people in the male league or should I take all of this to mean all men are players, looking for the next hottest thing and I need to consider never again having the notion of an ongoing romantic (that means we can stay at home and feel happy together) relationship again?”
I decided to start with this question, because I think it’s the starting point for your misconceptions.
Whether you’re male or female, your dating options improve if you’re hotter. My wife and I met through the social dance community, so we know plenty of women (and men) who are in their 40s, 50s and 60s, yet still “hot”. Age isn’t the determining factor for hotness.
Furthermore, “hotness” is not entirely a physical trait. A lot of it is attitude. During the time I’ve known her, my wife has become less self-conscious about her appearance, more willing to wear attention-getting clothing (occasionally even risqué clothing), and more willing to show off on the dance floor. She’s also 10% or 15% heavier than when we started dating.
Feeling good about the way you look has more to do with the way you feel than the way you look.
While my wife and I spend some evenings at home together, a lot of the ongoing romance comes from going out and doing things together. (Tonight it’s our Argentine Tango class.)
It sounds to me that a lot of your frustration comes from an unclear understanding of what you want and how to get it.
lisalin asked: (#389)
“My real question here is whether there are ANY men who really are looking for love, companionship and support on a daily basis from a woman, even if she does look her age, and it is equal to his own?”
The most successful daters that I know don’t just date men/women their own age. They also date younger -and- older. From the way you phrase the question, it sounds like you’re not interested in dating someone older/younger than you.
lisalin asked: (#389)
“Is it really a measure of – whatever – that you can get a younger babe?”
Let me turn this around. Imagine that you meet three men in their 40s who are nearly identical in every (external) characteristic. One is married to a woman his age. One is married to a woman a dozen years younger. One is married to a woman a dozen years older.
Given this one piece of additional information (the ages of their wives) what can you infer about the (internal) differences in character between these three men.
Seriously, stop reading, close your eyes, and take a couple minutes to determine what you can conclude about the character of these three men.
If you decided that there’s probably a difference in the character of these three men, then the age of a man’s wife is a measure – of something – to you.
People will perceive these three men differently. I say that, because I could be any of those three men. My wife is more than a dozen years older then me. Some readers on this blog have described me as “enlightened” because I am in a relationship with an older woman. Previously, I was in a serious relationship with a woman 11 years younger than me. (We might have married, except we disagreed on whether to have kids.) People congratulated me on dating a woman that much younger … without even meeting her. I have also had relationships with a couple amazing women who are close to my age.
Given small changes in circumstances, I could have ended up married to any of those women. I was attracted to the same traits in all of them. But (to me) I still would be the same person, regardless of the age of my wife.
lisalin 395
Well the number of responses related to age tells me how lacking I am in communication skills, as that was a very minimal part of what I was hoping to convey. But the responses have certainly been informative. I work at the lowest level on a cardiac floor in a local hospital while attending school. It is of interest to me how many patients in their 60+ years have no visitors and how few are surrounded by loving families or have regular visits from their partners. “Hotness” has an expiration date regardless of gender. My desire is to have a steadfast relationship day to day and not to be alone should I find myself restricted to a hospital bed someday, as well as to provide comfort to that person who has been consistant in standing by me. I submit that perhaps this was not the right forum for my comments.
I Certainly Know 396
i am a straight man that was married at one time myself, until my wife cheated on me. i was a very good, loving and caring husband that was very committed to her too. serious question here, since GOD created men and women, doesn’t it make sense for a man to be with a woman today? i would certainly say so, especially if they are straight. well since i am looking for a love life again, i really hate being alone and i will certainly admit it. it really sucks for so many of us men that would love to get married again, but it is true that there are many men that enjoy being single too. this is why we have a choice in life, many do and many don’t. when i was married i certainly enjoyed my life, especially coming home after a day of hard work and having my wife that had a home cooked meal waiting for me. now it really sucks not having that anymore, and i just will put my frozen TV dinner in the microwave until it is done. and i will go out every single night, just not to be home by myself since i have no one to stay home too anymore. so if you think being alone is fun, it is certainly not. like the other guy said, married men do certainly live much longer now than single men. i agree.
Jennifer 397
we all want to love and be loved. Just finding a secure substance with today’s pressures and surviving together. Love should be easy and kind.
JustMe 398
I Certainly Know.
I’m a straight woman who was married, until my husband cheated on me and left to be in an open marriage with the other woman. I was a loving, easy going, wife who put her spouse and her family first. What did it get me? Being a single mom who carries the entire burden of raising three kids. I would love to get married again, for soo many reasons; “us” against the world, emotional support, someone to have tickle fights, go out to movies, plays, exhibits, someone to snuggle under a blanket with while we watch Breaking Bad together. I loved being part of a relationship. Being single is hard. But being single is better than being married to someone who isn’t there for you. If you really want to be married again, I have every faith that you can and will be; do you know why? Because you have that power. Take it! It is yours! Put your past in your past and move forward. Be positive (even about your ex wife) be honorable, be compassionate. These are the things women are looking for.
I Certainly Know 399
Hi Just Me, i see you have the same problem that i have. meeting the right person is the hardest thing, it is like trying to win the lottery. i hate going out myself as it is, and it is like a game trying to connect with the right woman again. women have certainly changed over the years, and there are many women today that do seem to have an attitude problem and think that they are all that. i am a serious down to earth good looking man that keeps in shape, and i like to exercise and walk too. i go to the book store to read a lot, but the women are usually much younger than me. you would think going to the book store would be good to meet a woman, instead of going to the clubs, but it is not. so it is very difficult for me, since i am in my late fifties. i feel as if my age is against me too, adding to the problem. now i just go out, and hope for the best. thank you very much for your support, and i hope the best for you too.
The Truth Is 400
everyone needs love at one time or another, the straight good men like us just can’t seem to connect with the straight good women today, which is without a doubt the problem. it is a wonderful thing to share my life with a woman, and when you seriously think about it, who wants to live alone. it sucks as it is going to work everyday, and then coming home to an empty apartment with no one there but the four walls really sucks. and looking at so many men and women that have each other and their families, it is like GOD did forget about us. i certainly feel like he is punishing me, and i do not know why. GOD created men and women, well i certainly do not like being alone and hope to have a woman in my life. it would be great not to go out alone like i am doing now, and would love to have that special woman to go to the movies, dinner, walk on the beach and boardwalk, go out dancing, and going away on trips together. i certainly don’t like doing it by myself, boy that wouldn’t make any sense.
Jill Valentine 401
@Diana comment #13:
I’m a woman and I design video games, so what does that make me? I really resent your blaming video games on whether a person is mature or not. And what exactly do you mean by “mature”, anyway? What does that mean?
lisalin 402
The Truth Is, I Certainly Know, JustMe, Jennifer: You’ve made some very thoughtful and heartfelt responses here. It does help to know I’m not alone in these feelings, nor are you.
sunshine days please rise! 403
It’s exhausting being human these days by the norm of society. Used to be we could toerate someone elses idioseecriencies (i know didn’t spell it). As a species we c an listen with our eyes and love with our hearts. The singleton is abused and dumbed down. It’s sad because used to have stronger survival methods with others now it’s more of a what can you do to those who are Alpha adaptable to superficial looks and fair weather. Real sad!
Bane 404
Crap.
The men that can do well with women enjoy the benefits. The rest are forced to suffer in silence because women are only willing to date the men that CAN do well with women.
That’s all.
It Makes Sense 405
many men and women do like to stay alone, and many do not. i am a straight man that is looking for love again, especially after a divorce. i am one of many men that hates to be alone, and it would certainly be cheaper for me to find a good woman again. and the reason why i say this is that i hate going out all the time by myself, since i am spending much more money driving everywhere just hoping i will be at the right place at the right time. single women seem to have much more friends than many of us men do, so it is much easier for them. many of us men enjoy the companionship of being with a woman, and going places together. certain men will get depressed being alone, and i can see why.
lisalin 406
Bane: It really isn’t that we are only willing to date that type of man, but more often, he is the one who will come forward and show interest. If you don’t talk to me, then I have to guess you are not interested. I wish more decent men had stepped up and showed interest – but then maybe they really were not interested…so I have yet to find the decent one while having too much experience with the alphas.
Bane 407
And it comes to a point where many of those “decent” guys stop caring.
Sucks for you.
Fretmaster 408
With apologies to all the great women to whom the following does not apply. I have found that most decent non-player men seek a true relationship based on mutual respect and trust. Old School. Solid. Real. I had such a marriage. Sadly cancer took my wife from this Earth. She was always an Angel, now she has her wings.
Seven years on, I am trying dating again…Wow things have changed….. i have been encountering women who seem to be trying to create a face-book appearance of a perfect life. Do they do this to rub it in the faces of the other women? I don’t get it. Recently, I stopped dating a fun, smart woman (attractive, educated) who insisted on photographing and posting everything we did from our first date! I asked her to please stop and just “be” with me on the date but she said and i quote: “I need to catch up with my friends”. Kinda funny also a little creepy….She would even post while we were still out together on the friggin’ date(s)! I suppose I could have found it cute and thought oh gee she is so into US. I actually felt bad for her. So after five dates all of them documented for her “friends” on face-book I ended things. On my end it seemed a bit psychotic and it was like having a real-time online review panel of judges in all her face-book friends. I clean up well and am financially secure so I guess I look good statistically….and I “passed” the test… but this girl really did not know me at all. Her pictures looked like perfect movie moments. We could actually be completely incompatible! I ended it. I felt like I really could have been any properly groomed “man-object”. I am a real person it takes time to get to know me. Perhaps unlike a lot of dudes I won’t get physical with a women unless there is genuine two-way connection…she would not be genuine so there was no connection of value. Images are just images….Just open any fashion or lifestyle magazine for women (or men)….a lot of trouble begins with the expectations created by empty images. I guess, like most men, I would rather remain single than participate in BS.
lisalin 409
Bane: so it sucks for me if you are a nice guy who stands in the shadows while the alphas won’t let up and then you give up because you never tried? Interesting note on what passes for “decent.”
Fretmaster: this really sounds like a one-time scenario – no? Sincere condolances on your loss.
Fretmaster 410
Thank You for your condolences…Not a one time scenario unfortunately…maybe I just don’t get social media…. As far as “trying” goes…why should I when I know my own heart and mind and I know this is not going to work. Would not “trying” just be a waste of precious time? Do not understand your remark re…”decent…do not know what you are reading into that …I mean a willing to grow and learn and explore regular human being who thinks and feels at the same time…I have no doubt that I will meet someone again. I am not down about it nor do I feel lonely. I work on myself. Mind my own business and strive to become the person I wish to meet. Worked for me the first time. Will always work. Opposites attract is static electricity…like attracts like is….chemistry.
Ruby 411
Fretmaster
There are plenty of disfunctional people out there, both male and female. I can’t imagine many too women posting photos of their first dates on Facebook, sounds weird to me!
Fretmaster 412
lisalin: oops….I get it. The “decent” comment was for Bane…Oh well now you know what I meant by decent even if you weren’t commenting to me…best o’ health and prosperity to all. Cheers.
NOBODY 413
Believe me, some of Men hate being single too
Susan61 414
@Ed 383
And time doesn’t physically brutalize men like it does with women.
Wow, really Ed? Men don’t get old, bald, gray, wrinkly and fat? Men don’t die of cancer and heart disease? Only women age? Fascinating Ed, truly fascinating stuff! Please….when you have a chance, give us more of your insights!
Helen 415
I don’t think this hatred of being single differs much by gender. I believe humans are social creatures who generally don’t do well alone for substantial periods of time. Unfortunately, American society does not provide much sanctioned social support for singles, and so naturally, we try to pair up whenever we can. We don’t have much of the family structures common in other countries, or even the village, neighborly, or community structures. In these societies, it is less of a struggle for unmarried persons, because they always had someone else to turn to – friends, neighbors, family members, who could be counted on to help them when needed or to provide a listening ear and company.
Here in America, that’s not so much the case. We tend to pair up, and many form nuclear families. This is not to say that we don’t have community organizations, but that sort of broad social network just isn’t there for most people. In general we may be moving toward the right direction. Healthcare reform to provide for those most in need is a step in the right direction, because broad-based social support of any type has trickle-down effects that make individuals feel less desperate, less alone, less worried.
Nick 416
i am a straight man that certainly will agree with many of the other men and women, being alone certainly sucks and who would want to be alone anyway. it is very boring, very depressing, you feel like the whole world is crashing down on you, and there is really no one to turn too. and if all your friends are settled down with their own life, it makes it even worse. i was married myself at one time, and believe me it is very hard to connect with a good woman for me again. there are not any single dances anymore where i am, and trying to meet someone on line is very difficult too. i really wish that we had women like June Cleaver and Donna Reed again, for many of us very serious men that are looking for a love life today. i hate myself going out all the time, but it is certainly much better than being home alone with no one there. the men and women that were very fortunate to have met one another and have a family, well they certainly have a lot to keep them occupied. it is just a shame that the good women and the good men can’t seem to connect with one another, and that would have made all the difference in the world. my aunt and uncle are starting their 65th year together, and they met in school. you can really say that it was certainly meant to be for both of them, and trying to meet someone for many of us is like trying to win the lottery today. we can only hope and pray, with any luck at all.
Kyth 417
Freedom, this is so true. I’m a pretty attractive late 20′s something kind of guy. I live on my own, I run my own business and over all I’m very independent. My family really thinks it’s odd I’ve never been in a relationship let alone with a woman. My mother bugs me because I’m an only child and she wants to see her grand children some day before she dies. Life is tough Mom, get use to it!
Personally since I can remember I’ve never wanted children, I don’t want to be with a woman, I don’t want a relationship. The only person I like being around when I have free time is myself and I truly enjoy the freedom I give myself in life. I was never a very sexual person and I’m not just going to “hook-up” with a lady just for sex. I also don’t want to wake up one morning and discover I have chronic herpes.
I think I’ll stay this way for another few decades.
Thanks Katz for the article
John 418
Lisa M @105
I rarely hear women complaining about not getting really hot men who are out their league. This seems to be more of a running theme with below average and average looking men.
Hate to break it to you Lisa but men will date down for easy sex. So while women will get hot men, many times its because it is an easy layup. Women on the other hand wont usually date down for easy sex. So that explains the why of your comment.
Pat 419
i will certainly agree that being alone does really suck for me, especially after being married for a very long time. it was bad enough that my wife was the one that cheated on me, and then to go out all over again and deal with this garbage when i thought that i was finally settled down. most women as it is are a real tease, and trying to start a conversation with them is hard since they will just walk away. much more of us men i would say, don’t like to be alone. much more women are certainly the stronger sex when it comes to being alone, and they have many girlfriends to go out with.
Lynn 420
If you are a single woman, when your friends get married they will abandon you. If you are the last of your group of friends to be married, you will be socially isolated until you find “the one” and finally get married. Upon marriage, your friends will take you back. So, the social isolation and rejection you suffer from your friends is a very compelling reason for women to get married, even if they aren’t particularly interested in starting a family. Social acceptance and a sense of belonging don’t exist for women who stay single. I’m still unmarried, in my forties. I don’t have any friends I see regularly; no one calls me on the phone to say hi and what’s up — except for my parents. It sucks. It’s so lonely and depressing. It’s hard to describe.
Ryan 421
I’m not just fine with being single, I love being single. Being single is the best! You get to stay out all night, you don’t have to answer to anyone and you get to do whatever (not to mention whoever) you want. I enjoy being my own man not a woman’s ‘work in progress’
Mickey 422
Lisalin 406:
I think the issue here is that too many guys have had their confidence vaporized one too many times to give approaching another shot. So what you might see as disinterest is really demoralization.
lisalin 423
Mickey 422: I agree, it is a bad set up. We are trapped by the idea that guys should ask, and not be defeated by rejection and that girls who ask are not worth having. And believe me, after being first to ask a few times, it became clear that the latter is treated as a true reality and not just an outdated idea. But you have to know that not showing interest in a woman will almost certainly come across as disinterest.
john w. 424
I’m married and I really hate to admit it! Give me single back! Been married 45 years and I would love to spend the rest of my life without an old bitchy woman. I’ve told her I prefer to be single and all she said is she would rape me of every single dime I own. were still together but for almost all our married life we’ve lived apart. I live my life in the basement and her upstairs. I do nothing with her, not even talk to her. Probably the only time we were last together is our wedding night. I don’t care where she goes or with who. We just share the house and money.
Akasha 425
This is fascinating. As a single 40-year-old woman who is completely content with her life, I find it interesting that this article states that men have lower needs and expectations and are content with less intense and less frequent emotional contact. I actually quite enjoy my work, spend quite a bit of time alone and enjoy being alone and doing things on my own, and don’t need constant emotional conversations and support. In fact, I tend to attract those men who want more emotional connection and want to talk endlessly about their emotions, say that they are seeking someone to marry and with whom to have kids and who are upset that I don’t seem to need as much contact as they do.
There’s also a missing point in this article and that is that, even in societies that are supposedly advanced socially, like the in the U.S., there is still a stigma attached to women who don’t get married. You reach a certain age and all of a sudden everyone is calling you a lesbian because you aren’t married and you don’t seem all that interesting in dating. Then they want to feel sorry for you and put you in the “poor-me” category when, in fact, you are happier than you have been before, doing more of what you have always wanted to do, and are more comfortable with who you are. This, in fact, seems to piss off quite a few men and women. Men who can’t believe that you aren’t faking your happiness because, of course, *all* women have the emotional need to be in a romantic relationship and women who have chosen the get married, have kids path and are angry that you have freedom to do what you want when you want depending on your budget and how you manage it. Soooo …
Too much gender stereotyping all around. And, as far as sex goes, there’s some weird sort of thing going on now where men who are in their early and mid-20s come chasing after single women in my age bracket because they are looking for “someone with experience” when what they really mean is “someone who will pay for everything, teach me everything (including the fine art of making love versus just getting off as fast as they can) and act like their mommy/free psychologist.” Sorry, equal relationships filled with respect and consideration should be just that: equal, respectful and considerate. Not too keen on dating the younger crowd. Been there, done that. Moved on. Fast.