Are You Sick Of Being Told To Compromise For Men?

Evan Marc Katz

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If you are, I don’t blame you one bit.

You don’t want to be told that you’re doing anything wrong.

You don’t want to be told that doing the same thing always yields the same results.

You don’t want to be told that you’re responsible for change when you’ve been hurt by so many bad men.

I hear you, loud and clear.

Men are a HUGE problem. I hear about it every single day from my coaching clients.

You’ve been reading my posts for awhile and you’ve been thinking to yourself:

“Yeah, this guy seems to know what he’s talking about, but something bugs me about him. All his advice is so practical. They always talk about compromise and realistic expectations and being patient. Sorry. I don’t want to compromise and have realistic expectations and be patient! I just want to find love naturally.”

I get it: you want to feel good, and my advice doesn’t always make you feel good.

Believe it or not, I even get it when you send me emails that chastise me:

Evan,

You’re clearly smart, but when will you get to the real heart of the matter? There’s nothing to do when men are the problem here. They’re awkward, cheap, sex-obsessed and selfish. They think they deserve younger women when they don’t. They’re afraid of commitment and run when you start to care for them. This is why it’s frustrating to get your advice; it’s always telling me what I should do differently, but it doesn’t address the root cause of the problem: men.

Linda

Amen, Linda. You just spoke for thousands of women who are fed up with dating, online dating and the selfish idiosyncrasies and double standards of men.

Would it surprise you if I told you I agreed with Linda?

And not just a piece of what she wrote – every single word.

Men are a HUGE problem. I hear about it every single day from my coaching clients. I would not pretend for a second that you have it easy in trying to find a suitable lifelong partner. Dating is really tricky and I couldn’t be more sympathetic to your struggles.

Still, you have to admit, saying “Men are the problem” doesn’t begin to solve any problems. All it does is point fingers.

But let’s look at men another way – since that’s my job as a male dating coach who specializes in helping women. And let’s find agreement on all of these points:

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112 Comments »Filed Under Dating

112 Responses to “Are You Sick Of Being Told To Compromise For Men?”

1. Katie 1

   AMEN.
   I think another way of saying it is, who is the common denominator in serial failed relationships or dating dissatisfaction? If you do what you’ve always done, you’re going to get what you’ve always gotten. Nothing changes if nothing changes. 

2. Trenia 2

   I think this is really important for women to understand, because the reality is it’s a lot easier to connect with a man and make a relationship work if one person (the woman) is willing to change and mold herself into what he wants in order to make it work. One of my married colleagues always tells me “Of course men want to get married, who wouldn’t want a wife?” I think it goes back to one of your earlier posts about men being more content in singleness than women.

   I think your sentiments are right on, but for today’s smart, successful woman it places her at a crossroads: be yourself and face being alone or change or fix something about your behavior so that a man will find you more acceptable. Much of the pain that women feel is a frustration and disappointment of giving up this person they’ve been, for however long, so that she can find love which leads to feelings of not being enough, for some women this is when bitterness sets in. And this wouldn’t be so bad if it disproportionally affect women. I don’t mean to sound fatalistic about relationships because I think love is so important, but this is why many women may end up alone, because they will not be willing to make these sacrifices.

3. Terri 3

   Compromises are necessary in all relationships – between friends as well as in dating relationships.
    
   What I have found is that in order for a relationship to last, not only must we love or like traits and behaviors of our mate, but we must be able to tolerate those that we do not like.  These nagging little ( or not so little) things that are inevitable in our loved one must not bother us enough to cause grinding of teeth or stomach knots.
    
   A close friend was dating a much older and sophisticated man who had really “been around”.  He had a habit that used to irritate many of his friends.  (Prefer not to say what it was.)  She found it amusing and even endearing!  They could have married and probably been very happy but he died of a heart attack.  I knew him and liked him very much.
    

4. helene 4

   I think a big part of the problem is that many women are notactually attracted to men. We THINK we are attracted to men, but what we are attracted to is a big strong caring committed movie hero type man, not the creatures we actually have around us. Women have evolved a lot in the last few decades, more quickly than a lot of men have, and the regular guys around us (who were attractive to our mothers and grandmothers) are not actually that attractive to us. Many of our mothers and grandmothers were happy enough to marry emotionally distant, housework-shy sexually inept men, or men who thought nothing of carrying on with other women, because from their perspective, they got something out of it: they got out from their parents homw, they received financial support and they got to have children and be part of normal adult society. For many of us today, these things are not what we want men for….but the men around are still the same!
   Speaking for myself, I like men in general, and the things I like about them are: they are less two faced than women – if a man likes you, he talks to you. If he doesn’t like you, he ignores you. He doesn’t tell you he loves your shoes then bitches about you behind your back. Also, they’re good at fixing things, and love taking the car to the garage when it needs done. They are good at carrying heavy bags. They give good hugs. You can have sex with them. Sometimes they buy you things or take you places or let you have a go on their motorbike. They are good at sorting out problems on the PC. Some of them even cook. They smell nice. They tell you you look cute. They adore your boobs. They are less emotional than women froiends, which I find relaxing. I think it helps, on the whole, if you consider them like some sort of exotic pet…. like a giraffe. If you like giraffes, you like giraffes. But it would be absurd to expect them to stop being giraffes.They eat all the high leaves off all of your plants and they shit when they feel like it, they don’t say much and no, they will never “get” the importance of pot pourri. But that’s just them. If you don’t like them, that’s fair enough, but tha5t it what they are like.

5. Lisa M. 5

   I totally agree. Women are the ones asking for advice on this site so the onus is on us to make some adjustments to find love. I don’t think Evan is saying that we should twist ourselves in a pretzel in order to appease jerks and a-holes. It’s simple; if a guy doesn’t possess the qualities you are seeking in a mate make no attempts to change him because it’s a colossal waste of time and energy, just simply move on. I know that’s hard for many women. But to be honest I don’t understand why exactly, I never really got that. The moment a guy shows himself to be unworthy; I’m done.
   I’m certainly not perfect. Like I mentioned, when I first posted here; I have never been in a long-term relationship and I’m 36 years-old. And I’m well aware of what the problem is; I’m commitment phobic. I’ve known this for over a year now and I know I have to make some adjustments in my attitude towards relationships and commitment. However, the men I’ve met over the years haven’t helped to make commitment appealing to me but I still want to fall in love and I know the onus is on me if that’s going to happen.

6. Donna 6

   To Helene who posted above….you are a HOOT !!  Thanks for making me smile, and very astute also !

7. Lisa M. 7

   @Helene,
   I get what you’re saying about men but as women we need to be much more discriminating when it comes to men. We let them get away with way too much shit.  I think as women we put way too much importance on being with them.  I’m a recovering commitment probe and my biggest fear in getting involved with a man was that I believed I would lose my independence and autonomy.  So, I never made men a big priority in my life (I’m not saying it was a healthy choice. And yes, I’m heterosexual).  As a result, I often see them for exactly who they are and not for whom I would like for them to be and I have very little tolerance for them when they are not treating me right because I don’t need them to validate me. But I am open to meeting a man to love and share my life with. Not because I’m afraid of being alone or care what people think (and I’m talking about women in general not you).
   We just need to put less value on them and more on ourselves, that’s all I’m saying.

8. Reg 8

   You are right! Men are NOT reading this stuff and it only makes sense to give advice to the ones who ARE reading it. I would bring home printouts for my ex to read, written BY men, FOR men, and he wouldn’t read him.  Hence, he’s my EX. LOL.  And this site isn’t for us to bitch and complain about how stupid men are, or how they don’t get it. I don’t think Evan is ever disagreeing with that, so let’s take the advice we are given, use what we can, and discard the rest. Change does come from within. We are very powerful……….over ourselves.

9. Sophie 9

   Yes, there are good men out there, but few and far between.  In general, women want and need relationship more than men do (Read Evan’s recent post “Why don’t men hate being single as much as women do?).  Men don’t seek relationship advice, men don’t improve.  Because there are far fewer relationship-oriented men than women, the numerical odds are against women.  Women also have shorter youth, so yes we have the short end of the stick.  But we can’t change any of that.  The only sane advice one can give is “date actively, choose wisely, choose only the good men.”

10. Charles J. Orlando 10

    I would agree. As I’ve written: “Is the problem with women… men? Yes, however women need to apply the brakes on how men are allowed to treat them MUCH earlier in their relationships. Men can only treat women the way it is ALLOWED. Women can avoid many damaging relationship issues by demanding more, and by not sacrificing their self-esteem and self-worth in an effort to “contribute” to their relationships by placating the man in their life.”  —Charles J. Orlando, author of The Problem with Women… is Men

11. myhonestanswer 11

    I think a lot of the problem is women ruling men out, often for very silly reasons. The other issue is treating every man who is single as a potential partner, and coming across as desperate.

    Let me know what you think, I’d love to have some feedback on my site!

12. starthrower68 12

    I think the female readers agree with Evan more than we realize.  And while we certainly don’t want to constantly be male-bashing, sometimes it feels good to vent.  It doesn’t mean we’ve stopped agreeing, it means we need to get something out of our system so we can move on.  Sometimes we just want to be heard.

13. Sarahrahrah! 13

    Thank you for the acknowledgment of bad male behavior, Evan.   It seems to me that half of the “discussions” happening in the comments section could be solved by simply acknowledging the other’s perspective and experience.  More than that, I think that we still live live in a sexist society and women deal with this on a daily basis and frustration builds up from that, too.  I had to laugh recently when I read a slanted article about Maria Shriver, accusatorialy claiming that she “had to have known” that her husband was nailing the housekeeper.  I wondered to myself if women — especially those over 35 — ever catch a break.  Luckily, i stay away from commercial media as much as possible, so I don’t regularly expose myself to that sort of regular frustration.
     
    Despite these things going on at a societal level and what I’ve experienced as an individual, I still had to come to some sort of reckoning with myself after two marriages to abusive men.  Nobody held a gun to my head and forced me to marry these men… though I know that being desperate circumstances definitely contributed to one marriage.  The common denominator was *me*.
    For my new dating path, I’m taking things very slowly, investing a lot in myself in terms of my career, health and activities, and keeping high standards for myself and anyone I date.  I realize that this post is about learning to compromise, but in my case, I’ve learned that the compromise that I most need to keep making is learning to give less and let the man be a man more often.  If he is not up for that, then I realize that this is a sign and he is probably someone who still has some growing to do… and that is a sign to move on.  As a natural nurturer this is really tough, but by having high standards, I end up wasting less time and having higher quality interactions when they do happen.  So far, I’m very satisfied with this approach.
     
    @myhonestanswer
    Why do you think that women who flirt with single men seem “desperate?”  I am confused by this because women are encouraged to flirt, but when they do it, it seems like there is someone accusing them of acting “desperate.”  I wonder if this is an ageist criticism — like if it was a 25-year-old flirting with a guy she wouldn’t likely be accused of acting “desperate,”  right?  I would like to know your thoughts on this.
     

14. Angie 14

    I think the big issue is WHEN are you “compromising”, or WHEN are you being foolhardy?

    I can remember being younger and dating people simply because it was another person to have involved in my life.  I’d honestly tell guys I was dating in my early 20s “I can’t see myself marrying you… or getting married at all” just b/c of my age and maturity.  This didn’t mean “I don’t find you attractive” or “I dislike you”.  It just meant “I am not emotionally or mentally ready to say I know what I want forever”.

    I had a boyfriend move cities for me (after I said “Don’t do that, I can’t see myself marrying you”) and blowing up b/c he made all of these “compromises”.

    Was the problem “me”?  For him, yes, but the problem was also him not accepting what was plain as day – I didn’t want to think about long-term commitment.

    It is very easy for me to understand men might be this same way (or instead of “not ready for marriage”… wanting to date a model, whatever).  But “awkward”… yes, I’ve been around some awkward men.  Cheap… yup.  Definitely a few of those.  Sex-obsessed… who isn’t (unless it’s like the previous OP’s boyfriend)?

    But SELFISH???  The best way I heard “selfish” described is not someone who does what they want to do.  It’s someone who expects others to do what they want.  Of course, a man should step up if he is being a husband and a father.  Other people are dependent on him.  But a single guy playing the field…

    Evan is right.  Dump him if he’s not willing to compromise. 

15. Claudia 15

    The only way for women to change men is to constantly, all the time, always refuse to put up with not being treated right.  We all need to go back to some “old fashioned” standards, that often need to be relearned.  Now a days men don’t even seem to remember what treating a woman well means, and a lot of women don’t remember either.  Even older men don’t know.  And in some ways I can’t blame them.  A lot women have taught men that it’s okay to treat women badly.  Men can be as sloppy as they want and many, many women will just accept that behavior as fine because they don’t want to be alone.  Women need to be willing to say NO to bad behaviour and if it means they are alone they need to realize being alone is way better than being treated badly.

    I really believe that if ALL women refused bad behavior from the men that they date, things would turn around fast.  Men would have to change if they could no longer get what they want no matter how they acted.  Come on women – that’s the real power that we possess.   We need to stand up to bad behavior and enjoy being alone if being with a man means being treated badly.  No man is worth bad behavior – none.  And being alone, standing up for yourself, is truly liberating!

16. kenley 16

    No one has ever mentioned this, but you know men have mothers.  Why aren’t mothers teaching their sons how to treat women?  I know that when my father was growing up, my grandmother wouldn’t allow him to be disrespectful to his girlfriends and then ultimately his wife.  I am just asking a question so I hope the mothers on here don’t get angry, but it really is something I wonder about.

17. Venus 17

    We as women can solve this problem if someone would only write a book about how to change Men!!  Well, you know, not entirely, just their bad habits.  :- )

18. Node³ 18

    This sort of victim mentality poisons relationships before they even start.  Women who come to a first date with the mindset that men in general are uncouth lowlifes will be defensive, which translates into being unfun.  When there’s no second date, they probably blame me.  Make sure you’re judging each man on his own merits.
    That’s one piece of the puzzle.  The other problem is that dating is a low feedback environment.  I’ve had women freeze me out after a date, and I’m always left wondering if my behavior was too awkward, cheap, sex-obsessed or selfish, among other things.  If it was, I’ll never know, and carry that behavior over to the next woman.  One of the first principles of behavior modification is that the target behavior needs to be well-defined, so if you’re serious about changing a man’s behavior, point  out exactly what’s wrong as soon as it happens (immediacy is also a core component of behavior modification).  Many men will probably surprise you by at least making an effort to shape up.
    Last, make sure your expectations are reasonable.  The inclusion of “cheap” in the letter writer’s list of faults throws up red flags for me.  She may be one of those “Buy me stuff or I’ll leave” types.  Stuff isn’t really that important, especially if you haven’t been dating long, so focus on more important traits like emotional maturity and faithfulness, which pay off in the long run.

19. SPGNOW 19

    If you feel you are compromising too much, then you are with the wrong man. Get out!

20. PaulDA4CS 20

    I somewhat disagree, saying that men are the problem is a bit of a general statement, and not all men are as linda puts it are “awkward, cheap, sex-obsessed and selfish and think they deserve a younger woman”

    I am a man and I fall into non of those categories, I think (and I risk being persecuted) that women have to accept some responsibility, if you agree to have a relationship with a man that will treat you like rubbish then dont be angry with him, you are the one that agreed to be with him.

    Women always complain about “nice guys” but then go for someone that treats them rubbish – then they point the finger at all men and say we are all dogs.

    Well I’m a nice guy – a married one for that matter and my wife loves me just that way – and I dont fall in the category of cheap, awkward, selfish or sex obsessed.

21. pyramor 21

    I mostly agree, we can’t blame things outside ourselves, it’s truly hard for anyone to find someone that matches them, but we can’t start blaming the opposite sex for everything…

22. Lisa M. 22

    “Why aren’t mothers teaching their sons how to treat women?  I know that when my father was growing up, my grandmother wouldn’t allow him to be disrespectful to his girlfriends and then ultimately his wife.”

    Kenley,

    Great question, I often ask this question myself.  My theory is: My generation(X) is the generation that has been raised by a lot of single women.  I have found from own observations that men that were raised by single mothers tend to be more sexist and misogynistic. As we know, as women we’re not exactly big fans of one another and my feeling is that we just don’t care about how our sons treat other women. And feminism may also play a part in this as well, where they are probably being taught that men and women are equal, therefore, women shouldn’t be treated differently or better.
     
    It seems that men that come from two parent homes where there is a strong male presence tend to be less disrespectful towards women.  Fathers want their sons to do well with women and they are probably coming from a generation where men were expected to treat women well. In my opinion, these men also tend to be more confident when interacting with women. Your grandmother was most likely from this generation as well where the male and female roles were more traditional.
     
    The men of my generation seem really confused, socially awkward and feminized when interacting with women. Sorry but that’s how I see most of you. More and more men are getting away from traditional social behavior and I find it very disturbing.  That’s why the study, Evan, (and I’m not accusing him of anything because that study has been posted on many other sites lately) recently posted bothered me so much. It’s as if men are at the point where they  don’t even want to take any risk when it comes to getting a woman anymore.  They have become so overly sensitive to rejection that they rather not even attempt to just smile.  I’m a shy and highly sensitive person and there are times when I’m out and about and I see an attractive guy, I want to smile at him but then there is this fear in the mind that he may not smile back, so I don’t.  But, I’m a woman so I don’t see it a big deal.   This may also be the reason why there are so many PUA sites and books that cater to men these days on how to approach and interact with women because clearly it isn’t being taught early at home.
    Just my two cents.
     

23. Lisa M. 23

    “One of the first principles of behavior modification is that the target behavior needs to be well-defined, so if you’re serious about changing a man’s behavior, point out exactly what’s wrong as soon as it happens (immediacy is also a core component of behavior modification). Many men will probably surprise you by at least making an effort to shape up.”

    Node,

    This is very interesting. So, you feel that women are the ones that should police or correct bad male behavior. Really? Why should any women waste her precious time teaching a grown man how to behave? I mean, I don’t know much about how men think but I have observed that men rarely take responsibility for or internalize their negative behavior. It’s always someone else’s fault when they are behaving badly.

    What most of you should start doing is getting help from professionals but before that at least try doing some introspection once in a while.

    We as woman do it all the time. We don’t go around blaming others for our issues or expecting men to fix them. We either talk about it or get professional help.

    I guess since we live in patriarchal society men are pretty much allowed running a mock without very little consequence.

    What a wonderful privilege you all have as men.

24. nathan 24

    Lisa,
    I have to disagree with your assessment about single parent families. Growing up with both parents doesn’t guarantee crap.
    My parents divorced when I was 9 years old, and it was better for both of them and for my sister and I over the long run. My father wasn’t going to be the one who was active in teaching his son about relationships because he couldn’t deal with his own. And when I look back at my male friends as a teenager, most of them had two parent families, and yet none of them were receiving any decent advice about girls or relationships. We we all pretty clueless, and resorted to unsavory sources of information (older friends, porn mags. etc).
    It was only later, during my college days, that I realized that I had to grow up and act more respectful and assertive at the same time. You blame feminism, but it was through reading feminist literature, as well as having countless discussions with friends, classmates and girlfriends – often about that very same literature – that I came to have a better sense of what I actually wanted in a relationship, but also how damaging some of the old norms have been for both genders.
    Which is why I completely agree with your assessment of Node’s comment above. Expecting women to police bad male behavior is both privileged and irresponsible. Sure, I’d like a woman I’m dating to be more upfront about any issues she’s having, but it’s my responsibility to pay attention, watch boundaries, and not act like an ass.
    But the thing is, Lisa, you seem to want both “traditional behavior” from men, and also to break down patriarchy. That’s pretty damned impossible if you ask me.
     
     
    You talk about men not wanting to take risks anymore. Well, I have to put myself out there all the time because most women are still not going to make the first move.

25. nathan 25

    Cont. from above -
    As a man, I find myself constantly walking the line between some of that traditional behavior and the fact that what I want is a more equal partnership. It’s not easy. I don’t find a lot of clarity on either end. My experience has been that women who claim to want more traditional behavior from men grow tired of it after a while because with the good stuff comes a fair amount of sexist baggage. The man who is expected to lead a relationship all the time, and who wants to do that, is often the same man who – after 10 years of marriage, is considered “controlling,” “arrogant,” and “uncaring.”
    I just think in general, things are pretty muddled for everyone these days. And so the more we admit that we aren’t sure what to do, and the less we expect people to fall in line to some old, bullshit norms that aren’t gonna function in the long run, the better.
     

26. Nicole 26

    @Lisa M, I don’t think you can generalize about why men treat women the way that they do.

    Some men treat women poorly BECAUSE they spent childhood watching their dads mistreat their moms and don’t know any other way to act.  And some men treat women really well b/c they had single moms that struggled and that they feel protective of, and they extend that treatment to all of the women that they know. And some men are just jerks, and others are just nice guys because that is how they are wired.

    I don’t think that it’s fair to generalize all men OR women as one way or another.  We are all individuals, and a lot of things occurs in our lives as we develop that makes us do what we do.

    I think that we should know that we cannot change men.  And they cannot change us.  The point is not to change, but to be more open-minded and admit when something really isn’t working.  If you bought a pair of new shoes that looked really pretty but that didn’t fit and gave you blisters, hopefully you’d return them for something that worked for you better.  The problem is of course, that everyone wants the Louboutins even though they cost an arm and a leg and are hard to walk in, when in reality, the less glamorous moccasin is probably a better long term choice. 

    Men don’t ask for help but the answers for their issues with women would be the same if they ever bothered to ask.  Too many of us pick the wrong person (usually for superficial reasons) and then want to mold him or her into that perfect thing.  There is someone out there who is right for you just the way that he is.  Don’t complain that a man doesn’t buy you flowers and won’t hold open the door for you-there is a guy out there who will do that.  But a guy who has never done that for anyone is probably not going to start doing it for you. I think it’s ridiculous to think that you can manipulate or blackmail someone into being something that he is not.  And men who let you do that are weak, and why would you want someone like that?

    I can be honest and say that in college, for example, there were lots of nice, average guys who were perfect gentlemen and 90% of girls would not look twice at them because they were not tall, athletic, or conventionally attractive.  And mind you, this was a very elite school-all of these guys were winners and were going on to great careers.   Yet at that age, picking one of them would have felt like an unfathomable compromise.

    We all need to do it and no one denies it, but it only feels like we are getting preached at exclusively because we talk about it more and ask all of the questions.

    Not saying I like it, just being objectively honest.

27. Ruby 27

    Lisa M #22

    “My generation(X) is the generation that has been raised by a lot of single women.  I have found from own observations that men that were raised by single mothers tend to be more sexist and misogynistic. As we know, as women we’re not exactly big fans of one another and my feeling is that we just don’t care about how our sons treat other women. And feminism may also play a part in this as well, where they are probably being taught that men and women are equal, therefore, women shouldn’t be treated differently or better.” 

    “I guess since we live in patriarchal society men are pretty much allowed running a mock without very little consequence.” 

    I’m confused, is it single mothers who are the problem, or patriarchal society?  I completely disagree with your startement “As we know, as women we’re not exactly big fans of one another and my feeling is that we just don’t care about how our sons treat other women.” I’ve dated men who were products of single parent homes and those from two-parent households, and I haven’t noticed a significant difference. But I have noticed that single moms rely heavily on other women in their families for help (mothers, sisters, even girlfriends). Usually, the father isn’t even in the picture. Kids from single-parent households tend to have greater exposure to women as caregivers than to men. 

    I recently dated a man who was the prime custodial parent of two older sons. I didn’t think he treated me all that well, and I felt he set a surprisingly bad example for his boys. I’ve noticed that some men with sons are completely clueless when it comes to teaching them respectful ways to treat women, either that or it’s a question of “do as I say, not as I actually do.”

28. Venus 28

    @ Node 3

    The other side of that coin is that men in general don’t want to be told that they should change. Imagine being told by your date (a woman that you do not know) that your behavior was too awkward, cheap, sex obsessed, selfish etc. Would you see that person again? No… you would write her off as a bitch and move on to the next. In a worst case scenario a woman passing along that helpful information to the wrong man can have dire results.

    Just because your date has decided that she won’t see you again does not mean she wants to be placed in the unpleasant and awkward position of being your dating therapist. She may fume and internalize her dissatisfaction about something you did or said, but it is simply in bad form to lash out or to offer friendly “fix yourself” advice to someone you hardly know.

    Evan is right. There really is no easy solution here. If a guy has predominantly good qualities and shows potential as a long term prospect, its best to overlook the bad initially (if these are not deal breakers) and work on a satisfactory middle ground. Perhaps over time that individual would be willing to make changes to appease their mate, but to expect change at the outset is unrealistic.

    A certain amount of rejection is expected on the dating scene. But if you find that women consistently freeze you out after the first date you may want to enlist the assistance of a female friend (or professional) to provide feedback on what might be causing this. Further, there are well known first date faux pas that all men should avoid. Find out what those are.

29. Ellen 29

    I agree with one of the posters who said if all of us women insisted upon respect, bailed consistently if we didn’t get it, maybe even withheld sex, men would finally wake up and change. I do think it’s coming based on what I’m seeing maybe. Evan and Oprah and self-help books & Millionaire Matchmaker (she counsels men to “shape up ’cause women tend to move on quickly now”) are leading the way.

    I raised my son, 26, to be very respectful of women. I’m sure his Dad, my ex, counselled him as well.

    In my experience I tend to prefer men who grew up with sisters AND Moms they adored. If either one or both conditions are absent I just try to steer clear of the man. Ditto the man who blames his ex-wife for every single thing that went wrong in their marriage…..

    In two yrs. of online dating I’ve found that men would rather watch Espn for days altogether than spend 10 minutes in quiet introspection about themselves or their behavior. They are hopelessly clueless about how they come across to women. And 95% of the men I date are control freaks and incapable of compromise where my scheduling/emotional needs are concerned. They just don’t give them a second thought after, say, the first week or month of near constant, artificial and self-serving wooing on their part. I just resent it. But at least I now know their pattern and can anticipate with incredible accuracy which way the relationship is heading….

    In a sentence: Men prevail because they are BULLDOGS about control. Women are more passive. End of story…..Maybe in their minds if there’s compromise they feel emasculated.

    Nonetheless, I have tons of self esteem, and what I’m finding is that I tend to bail on 95% of relationships. But in nearly every case after the guy has had some time to reflect and/or miss me, they are always back in touch (’cause I’m a friggin geisha to men- kind, sweet, good listener, supportive, etc., etc. It’s just my nature.).

    I secretly LOVE the look and/or reaction of total surprise when I drop out of sight or say goodbye ’cause NONE of them ever see it coming. Men seem blind to the initial hints, then repeated direct requests (for compromise). It’s gotten so bad I read a sort of riot act to them early what I want out of the relationship, what I expect and that I tend to bail on 95% of relationships. I’m sure it scares off a few, but I no longer care. Despite the warnings, and Lord, even occasional pleading, they keep right on being men. They will be men to the end of time! Unless we as a group show them we mean business finally! lol

    So ladies, be strong, be clear, be ready to walk. The good guys are out there, but not always packaged the way we want them to be.

30. Ellen 30

    PS

    I’ve finally, after two yrs., reached date #20 or 21, not sure, so maybe I’m getting closer? And I’ve only finally decided I wanted a true commited relationship (but not marriage or living together) in the last 6-8 months so I’m hoping I’m overdue for some luck here. Previously I think I just wanted to have fun, affairs maybe. I KNOW I was dating all the wrong men, or figured out I was after a while. Evan’s been a big help. Thank you Evan!!!!

31. Angie 31

    @Lisa 22

    Actually, the BEST mannered men I know were raised by single moms.  Why?  Because these guys were children watching their mothers try to date, and being the “man of the house” at a young age.  No one taught them what to do.  They paid attention to “what not to do”, and it was way more meaningful than being given suggestions since there was actual emotions attached (personal experience).

    I think people in general are more willing to compromise if they want a serious relationship, and this has nothing to do with gender.  Whether or not they want a relationship and are a “good catch” is a whole other story.

32. BK 32

    @nathan
     
    Thank you! The problem with having preconceived notions about gender roles in dating relationships while also demanding equality is that there’s no such thing as separate but equal. Roles in a relationship should be determined individually and not based on gender. Maybe she likes mowing the lawn, and maybe he’s a wiz in the kitchen. However, if we’re defining roles in such a relationship purely on gender, that’s the exact opposite of equality. By saying men need to act in a more traditional way, Lisa is taking an anti-gender equality stance.
     
    I was raised by a single mother, and I was taught to be nice to women. However, I eventually dropped that after high school and college because it got me nowhere with women, as Nicole (26) mentioned. I helped women with their homework so they could have sex with the dude in the adjacent dorm who slept all day and partied all night, and his whole wardrobe seemed to be comprised of wife-beaters. I admit to being bitter and angry at women for not liking me even though I behaved like a gentleman, and I have decided not to pursue women anymore. I don’t feel valued and appreciated if a woman needs to sleep with a bunch of jerks before she finds me acceptable enough to settle for.
     
    I think women need to take a look at their actions. And don’t dismiss past actions simply because they happened in the past and you’re “a different person now.” A person is defined by his/her own actions. If a woman wants a man to act like a gentleman but treated nice guys like crap in the past, she might need to take a look at how her actions shaped the men around her. Maybe she’s responsible for shaping the ideas of someone like me.

33. Lisa M. 33

    @ Nathan, Ruby & Venus,

    Thanks for taking the time to read and comment on my post.  As I mentioned, all throughout my post #22 in particularly, that those were my observations and opinions (my “brain-farts” if you well). I’m not a sociologist so I don’t have all the facts.  The comments about single moms and two-parent homes were my opinions base on own my personal experience. Of course, there are no absolutes in any situation. And when did opinions and personal observations become generalizations?  But can we admit that single parenting has been socially (and economically) damaging to our society- a dismal failure.  And it doesn’t mean I’m putting the reason for its failure entirely on women because it takes two.
     
    Once again, thanks for weighing in and allowing me to share.
    ——
    1.      Nonetheless, I have tons of self esteem, and what I’m finding is that I tend to bail on 95% of relationships. But in nearly every case after the guy has had some time to reflect and/or miss me, they are always back in touch (’cause I’m a friggin geisha to men- kind, sweet, good listener, supportive, etc., etc. It’s just my nature.).
     
    Ellen,
    I can totally relate with you on this.  When a woman thinks highly of herself she can expect to be on her own a lot but you’re fine with that because you would rather be alone then put up with some guy’s bullshit.  I can also relate to men not letting go easily.  Every guy that I have ever gone out on a date always wants to stay in touch even though most of the time I’ve decided I’m interested (usually due their poor behavior towards me). They follow me on Face book, my space and text.  If I should run into them somewhere they want to take me out again. Sometimes I ignore them and sometimes I engage them but I never give them another chance. And all of this is because just like you I’m always sweet, pleasant and kind even when they are treating me poorly on a date. The whole time they think that they have me but being that I’m very stealth in my behavior.  They have no idea that I’ve already moved on and when I do that’s it.   
     
    Ellen good for you, I hope other women will start adapting this way of being. It is very liberating indeed.
     
    I bet you’re referring to ’Memoirs of a Geisha’, right? I think I should read it too.  I saw the movie and I thought that it was wonderful and very well done.
     
     
     
     

34. SS 34

    Lisa M.,

    I get the feeling that we come from the same cultural background? Our experiences seem remarkably similar… I’m wondering if that might be the reason for the disconnect between our experiences and that of other posters.

    I don’t discount what other posters are saying either, but I think there are a few other subtle nuances here.

35. Claudia 35

    No matter how men were raised – by mothers, fathers, or both it’s our job when we date to expect to be treated well and refuse to accept any other behavior.  It’s not men, it’s their behavior.  Maybe being treated well is an individual judgement in some small ways, but the basics should be there – which is a man should want to treat a women well.  Of course, the same applies to women.  It’s gotten sloppy.  I’ve found guys who didn’t even ask a me out on a date in the beginning - they just expected to be able to hang out.  Also, guys who just expected sex right off the bat. (Yeah, I don’t want a man who can’t take me on a date or who doesn’t have an income, for that matter).  I know times are rough but I’d rather be alone, and perhaps men shouldn’t be online if they can’t afford a date.  Too many men I’ve talked to through online dating are looking for a woman to take care of them.

    I say we as women needs to say NO to clueless behavior.   I’m not even sure explaining works.  Just don’t continue dating men who aren’t right.  Be strong enough to know it’s better to be alone than with a man who has been allowed to treat women wrong.

36. Nicole 36

    @BK,
    While I can understand that if you ran across someone you actually knew as a younger person who suddenly wanted to be friendly, you wouldn’t be game, I hope you reconsider being able to take older women in general more seriously.  I think you are not unique in feeling that sometimes that kind of history cannot be set aside or forgotten.

    Everyone makes mistakes as a younger person.  And while it was wrong of those girls to use you, to me, it’s a valuable lesson about not letting people who clearly don’t care about you take advantage of you.  I somehow picture you repeating the same behavior with the same women.  I’ve seen guys let themselves get used and abused by that one girl for years and years. And it’s always b/c she was “so hot”.  Whose fault is that really?

    I was raised never to take anything from guys, but not everyone was.  So I’m not sure that you should act like every single woman on the planet is guilty of that crime.  There may have been a girl that wanted you that  you ignored. 

    Just speaking anecdotally, b/c while a lot of nice guys get passed over by girls, sometimes it’s b/c they are busy chasing cheerleaders and prom queens and thinking that they can win them from the football captain by doing their homework or helping them cheat on tests.  Meanwhile, maybe a nice girl in band wanted to do homework with you. 

    We tend to exaggerate…no one likes me often means none of the cute/popular people liked me.  That’s different from everyone hates me and no one will give me a chance because I’m “too nice.” 

    You made youthful, naive mistakes just like they did.  So try to let go of it and meet new people who have learned from those mistakes (from other people ) and who now judge people based upon other qualities.

    Being bitter towards and about women will guarantee failure.  Why not give yourself a chance at success?

37. Annie 37

    @BK

    I feel that there are a lot of misunderstandings that occur when people are younger. Young high school girls, and college girls are just feeling their way through life, they have hormones, they have a lack of self-awarness, and are often feeling really really insecure about themselves. Deep down inside, many of them truly believe that if a man got to know them , he wouldn’t love them, so they chase unavailable men. They honestly don’t mean to hurt decent guys, and I have to say I feel that a truly decent man might be sad for these women, rather than angry at them. Didn’t you feel badly when a girl you cared about, made a mistake and got herself hurt?

    I see young men making mistakes too, getting caught up with shallow, narcissistic females. As a young girl, I would go out to parties, bars etc and it became pretty obvious that I wasn’t about to start snogging or going home with a man, they moved on. I thought they didn’t like me, but found out from some of the guys we hung with, that they secretly had a lot of respect for me, because I was alway’s taking care of myself was alway’s nice to them and didn’t try and get their attention sexually. But they were young men, and they weren’t looking for some-one like me, they were looking for easy at that time of their lives.

    I’m not bitter, that some of these Players are now coming back around, wondering what I’m up to(If I’m married etc). I wasn’t nice, to get them to like me, it was just who I was trying to be.

    I feel it would be in ones own best interests to stay nice and true to course, because it’s who you are, regardless of the reactions of women. A man like that feels wonderful to be around because he has character and strength of his convictions and you can feel safe with him.

    Don’t give up.

38. Annie 38

    @22

    Lisa, why won’t you smile at a man that you think looks nice? Or all men for that matter? I really don’t think that you are being rejected if he doesn’t smile back, a smile is such a small thing and he could have something else on his mind or just not be a nice guy so no biggie anyway.

    Please don’t think I’m attacking you, but a smile goes a long long way. Might want to try it anyway?

39. Node³ 39

    @Venus #28
    For dating issues, the female friend or therapist route isn’t very effective.  Behavior modification requires immediate and specific feedback.  A talk with a friend or therapist provides neither.  Any discussion that takes place is going to be at least a few hours removed from the event (and thus be subject to memory degradation) and be filtered through my biases.  Also, there’s the problem of knowing on which events to focus.  There’s a cognitive principle called the Dunning-Krueger effect.  Essentially, people who are incompetent at something don’t realize they’re incompetent.  In this case, it means that in talking to a friend or therapist, I might skip over relevant information because I don’t even have the first clue that it’s relevant.
     
    The only way to overcome these problems is to ask the person who actually witnessed the behavior and was offended.  A friend or a therapist can only make a guess that will probably be wrong.
     
    I don’t get what you mean that giving the wrong man such advice could mean dire consequences.  The worst that would probably happen is an exasperated response.  Do you really think a woman giving advice is going to be axe-murdered or something?  Geez…
     
    The best idea I’ve heard to actually tackle this issue is a therapy modality that brings men and women with dating issues together and sends them on actual dates.  Unlike real dates, however, there’s an immediate post-mortem.  The idea is that if you go into the date knowing that it’s for a therapeutic purpose, the criticism isn’t as psychologically traumatic.  It never caught on for some reason, though.

40. Sherell 40

    I think the real issue is that women expect men to be like them and think as they do.  I grew up with 3 brothers and I have learned alot in my relationships .  Men are very different in many ways and similar in some.  There are exceptions to rule obviously but they communicate differently, are more singular in focus, value relationships but approach them very differently then women.  Masculine energy is so different, but we love it.  Also, women should not expect to get all their emotional needs met through their men.  Maintaning strong relationships with other women is essential. 

41. Venus 41

    Node3
    I agree that behavior modification is most effective if the action to be addressed is brought to attention immediately.  However, you must understand how unreasonable it is to expect a total stranger to want to take on this role.   You might appreciate the feedback, but I guarantee that there are a lot of men out there who would not. 

    There is value in seeking feedback from a friend of the opposite sex.   For myself,  I have no problems getting attention.  I walk into a room and the men stare.  Stare, but they don’t approach!  My girlfriends say, oh they are not worth the time.  My guy friend said, “You’re intimidating.   Men want to talk to you they just don’t know how to approach”   Hmmm… at least now I have something to work with.   And I didn’t have to date him to get this information. 

    Our behaviours, traits, mannerisms are a part of who we are, they help make up our personality.  The people we work, play and socialize with are very aware of our strengths, weaknesses, idiosyncrasies and those habits that make us either endearing or annoying.   Ask them!!  ( LOL)  The women in your life can probably  provide you with a list of things that you do that annoy the crap out of them.  And if you really want a candid account you can ask an ex-girlfriend or ex-wife for their input (not recommended).   These traits don’t simply pop up while you are out on a date, but they may be more pronounced.  And like I said earlier learn the common mistakes men routinely make on dates  and make sure that these are not a part of your  presentation. 

    Just wanted to add,   I have a very intelligent and talented friend who self describes his looks as “average” but he only hits on the most beautiful women online.   His rational.. “If I’m gonna be rejected, it might as well be by a beautiful woman”  (lol)   And so he is routinely rejected, or he finds himself with foreign women who are interested in his credit card numbers and bank balances.   But he perseveres becoming more discouraged and embittered with each encounter.  There is moral somewhere in this story.  I am sure you can find it. 

42. BK 42

    @Nicole and Annie
     
    While I hate to reduce the human mind to a narrow construct far too sensitive to outside forces thus simplifying human actions and likening us all to fleshy Pavlovian creatures, I can’t help but think maybe I wouldn’t mind still being nice if I had possibly been rewarded for it (or at least treated with respect) in the past. I feel like I was punished rather than rewarded, so I refuse to be nice to women anymore. I know it’s illogical, and I realize I’m protecting myself from being hurt by not letting myself be vulnerable, but that’s what I’ve chosen to do.
     
    The only girl I ever actually “dated” for any period of time was a girl in college who came on to me. I wasn’t physically attracted to her (nor was she to me), but we were friends, and I eventually grew to find her very beautiful. However, she was only using me to get closer to another guy. And after six months of no progress with the guy she was truly interested in, she ended it with me. In fact, I’ve never been physically attracted to any of the women I’ve ever asked on dates including the skinny 5’11″ (I’m 6’2″) blond that I was supposed to find HOT, but I didn’t. I usually pursued because I felt some connection with them.
     
    I’m not shallow. I used to be very outgoing. I was always the funniest guy in high school and among my friends and classmates in college. I read philosophy and political theory in my free time. I was very active in extracurricular activities, and I knew A LOT of people whom I was very friendly with. However, I found that being nice, genuine, and interesting will never get me as far as abs and a square jaw.
     
    It’s fine if you disagree with me. I’m just saying I can’t take more rejection. My father was an abusive alcoholic, and my mother was bipolar and barely ever around. We men can’t talk with each other about being hurt. I just don’t have the support system, self-esteem, and coping abilities I need in order to pursue women. Thanks for your responses, though.

43. Lisa M. 43

    @SS,

    Yes, it could be that we share a similar cultural background that you are able to relate to the observations I’ve made.  While others here were unable to relate and that’s fine. It was interesting hearing their views on the subject, though.

    @Annie

    No offense taken.  Like I said, I’m very shy.  And yes, it probably wouldn’t hurt me to step out of my comfort zone once in a while. 

44. nathan 44

    Node, I have actually heard literally dozens of women, in person and online, speak about men who – when called on their shit – got really wound up and defensive. Or men who, when repeatedly rejected by a woman, won’t let go, and continue to press on with her, thinking she’s just playing hard to get. Now, there are a percentage of game-playing women out there. However, I have heard, and even witnessed, these negative feedback loop scenarios enough now that I have to disagree with your expectation that women provide immediate criticism on male behavior that bothers or upsets them. This is especially the case when people don’t know each other well. Men need to be more proactive about picking up the signs and signals being given, or asking if they really aren’t sure. I’m not saying woman shouldn’t speak up, but more that it needs to be more balanced.
    BK – I hear you about those high school and college experiences. And yet, like other commenters have said, young folks make lots of mistakes, and are often pretty foolish. It takes awhile for most of us to realize that qualities like kindness, mutual respect, steadiness, etc. are the glue of good relationships. Hell, some folks never learn that.
    Although my dating history is decidedly mixed, I have met plenty of women who don’t fit the picture you have painted. And I’m often viewed as “a nice guy” – sometimes in positive ways, and sometimes negatively. But this same “nice guy” has been in long term relationships. I haven’t been alone my whole life. So, even though I’m single right now, I know that whatever I’m doing, it’s not failing me.
    Even though I question a lot of the perceived norms, and assumptions, it hasn’t led to a lonely, miserable life. But it does often mean needing more patience because I’m not someone who can walk into any old place and pick up a new girlfriend on a dime. And that’s totally fine with me. I wouldn’t want that anyway.
    The only decent advice I could offer is to mix things up. Try something new – a new approach, a new activity where you might meet someone, anything that is different from what you have been doing.
    If you read enough comments from both men and women on dating sites, one thing you’ll learn is how stuck in patterns and fixed views people can get.
     

45. Angie 45

    @BK
     
    I have to reply.  How would someone know if you are interested, when all you were doing is helping them with their homework?  Actually, reading your post makes me somewhat irritated by this “nice guys” mentality.
     
    I’ve done favors for others – men and women – not because I wanted them to like me, but because it is a nice thing to do.  If I have the time to help a person who is struggling, I will do that.  I don’t expect them to reciprocate, but often a friendly gesture is rewarded with a friendly gesture (a party invite, a drink on a night out with friends, a big THANK YOU), and maybe if the opportunity comes up for them to help you they will step up.
     
    But helping someone with homework is FRIENDLY, it’s not romantic and it’s not “being a gentleman”.  Your post obviously omitted details, but what is the girl to do?  You should have just asked her out on a date!  (And no, no one owes you a date because you helped them with something, they owe you a thank you).

46. Lisa M. 46

    “Just speaking anecdotally, b/c while a lot of nice guys get passed over by girls, sometimes it’s b/c they are busy chasing cheerleaders and prom queens and thinking that they can win them from the football captain by doing their homework or helping them cheat on tests. Meanwhile, maybe a nice girl in band wanted to do homework with you.”

    This so true and they can deny it if they want. Most of these “nice guys” are creating their own misery due to their sense of entitlement and just being unrealistic about the type of women that they can attract. I don’t like self-proclaimed “nice guys” I find them dishonest and manipulative. At least with the jerks and assholes you know what they want upfront and they have no problem letting you know what it is.

    I was friends with a “nice guy” for ten years, who I knew within less than a year wanted more with me but was too pussy to come right out and say it. I, on the other hand, was very clear about not having any interest in him romantically but he hung around for ten years kissing my ass in hopes that I would fall in love with me. And the more that wasn’t happening the more hostile he became towards me and often accused me of using him. It wasn’t a real friendship for him. He was using the “nice guy” angle as a form of manipulation to get what he wanted from me (a romantic relationship). Meanwhile, I had often made it clear to him that I desired nothing more. I had even ask him on a couple of occasions to set me up with his guy friends and he did. His hostility towards me became too much for me to deal with that I eventually had to sever the “friendship”.

    It’s just ridiculous these guys are just guttons for punishment. This guy would turn down other women who were interested in him because they weren’t hot or beautiful and he was just average-looking. Why would you waste ten years on a woman who wasn’t interested in you? Why?!

47. Venus 47

    @ BK

    I am surprised that such an intelligent person would allow their high school and college experiences to so absolutely define their views of the opposite sex.  These are supposed to be primarily learning/building experiences.  You learn what works and what doesn’t.  You build on the positives and try to decipher the lessons embedded in the negatives.   These are opportunities for growth. 

    As an adult looking back on those years you should be able to see the folly of your actions and figure out why they were so ineffective.  Writing off  the opposite sex completely just seems like a major copout. 

48. JB 48

    @Elln #29 “In my experience I tend to prefer men who grew up with sisters AND Moms they adored. If either one or both conditions are absent I just try to steer clear of the man”

    Wow, I’ve heard a million reasons why a woman would “disqualify” a man but just because he didn’t grow up with sisters??…..lol! Too funny !! Can you imagine a man saying “I prefer a woman with brothers who adored their fathers because a woman who didn’t grow up with brothers I’d steer clear of her”…………..No, of course not.
    Btw, I have 2 sisters but I know men that don’t and they’re happily married, great normal husbands.

    I’m not “busting”on you Ellen but this is just one of the ridiculous things that Evan probably talks to his clients about changing their minds on.

49. Ruby 49

    JB #48

    I don’t know about sisters, but several relationship advisors I’ve read have said to never date a man who hates his mother.

50. Annie 50

    @BK

    Ah I see. Women tend to do very similar things, they can get very defensive with men, and push them away before the poor guy even has a chance. Sometimes its because they are giving too much to the man, in hopes he will return this giving and find themselves ripped off when he doesn’t. It’s also because they believe if the man really got to know them, they wouldn’t love them..would walk away eventually, or use them so we go on the attack.

    It feels very unpleasant.

    I think it comes down to how much you really feel you need someone in your life. Since I’ve found I can be content without a man(even if I would prefer one in my life), I know that no matter what he does, I’ll survive it…so now I can be more vulnerable.

    I hope you can work through this and gives things another chance some day. It feels awful to let pain be your guide in life. It feels wonderful being with some-one you love and trust.

51. Jadafisk 51

    42. Think about what you’re saying here. You’re occupying the other extreme. Why would any woman want to be in a relationship with a man who wasn’t physically attracted to her? Are women that you have some inkling of attraction towards that rare, or do they intimidate you? Are your preferences niche or extremely common?

    Also, how do/did men reward you for being nice to them? Did any of those women reward you in a similar fashion?

52. AQ 52

    I think that what Evan said in a different post was good – keep dating – go on a date every week until you find a boyfriend. That might be until I am 90 but I will keep trying. If you try you have at least a 50% chance to succeed and if you quit it goes to 0.

    I just came home from the WORST date ever. Ever. This man is a litigator and everything I said he turned into an argument. Even if I agreed with him he turned it into an argument. He would ask me a question and then turn it into an argument.  

    The one thing I have learned – is that you cannot “work” to “make” a relationship. You need a willing partner who wants it and wants it with you. The “work” is dating to find that person. 

    NEXT!!!!!!!!!

53. BK 53

    @Angie and Venus
     
    I’d just like to make clear that I don’t think ALL women are like this, especially mature women. What I’m saying is all women I grew up with and went to school with have quite a bit of this in them. I can’t name a single woman who I knew in my time growing up who didn’t judge men primarily on looks. My high school class had 39 people in it, so we all knew each other pretty well, and I knew many women on my college campus fairly intimately, and I’m still struggling to come up with the name of even a single woman who didn’t behave in a shallow way. (Of course, the men I grew up with were extremely guilty of this as well. Woman isn’t the only shallow gender.) And because of this, I was left out of the dating/sexual realm. And because of that (along with my own personal problems), I’ve decided not to even make an attempt anymore. Honestly, I’m surprised my lifestyle choice has gotten any attention here at all. I don’t think it’s that unusual.
     
    Maybe I wasn’t always the most assertive person from the start, but when I say I was a nice guy, I mean I didn’t treat every woman as a torso with limbs and three holes from the moment I met her. I don’t think helping someone with homework or with jump-starting her car entitles me to sex. I would do these things for anybody who was decent. And as I did these things, sometimes I would get a glimpse of a woman’s personality and decide to give it a shot. You all might think this is ineffective, but I realized if a girl was going to like me, it sure wasn’t going to be because of the way I looked; it was going to be because of who I was. So, laying some sort of asshole ground rules like “blowjob or gtfo” wasn’t going to work for someone like me. I think women respond to attractive assertive men. Unattractive assertive men are creeps and pervs.
     
    Quick anecdote: the first girl I ever got the guts to ask out was a girl in high school who was in a club with me. We spent a lot of time together, and we were kinda close and flirty. When I finally asked her to go to the homecoming dance with me (which was not really a big deal in my school), she responded by telling her mother that I raped her. It was an obvious fabrication, and her mother knew it. I’m not a psychotic rapist, and I’ve never laid a hand on anyone who didn’t lay a hand on me first. But I got the point. I had a place, and I better not step out of line.
     
    Lisa, just to make sure you understand me, I WAS NEVER ATTRACTED TO ANY CHEERLEADERS. You can essentialize the “nice guy” all you want, but you’re nowhere close to understanding him. Self-important plastic grrlz with pom poms and a penchant for cartwheels don’t appeal to me. I understand I’m not your average guy, but I’m letting you know how this former nice guy feels and always felt.

54. BK 54

    @Jadafisk
     
    Pffft. If you actually want me to, I’ll ask a bunch of women if they’d like to be in a relationship with Clooney, Depp, Brody or any one of those fellas. I really doubt they’d even consider his attraction towards her before answering. And it’s not like I was terribly unattracted to them, I just didn’t find them that special in the appearance department, which isn’t the most important thing for me anyway. And I certainly didn’t tell them they weren’t “my type” because I’m not a jerk. Are you asking me to define what I find physically attractive? I think most women my age are at least “doable” (lol that wasn’t the best euphemism), but I don’t have to think a woman is drop dead gorgeous in order to want to have sex with her or even take her on a date.
     
    I’m not saying a woman had to fall madly in love with me because I was nice to her. I’m saying if I behaved in a decent way and didn’t come across as an asshole, then I expect to have women occasionally accept dates with me. However, I’ve never actually had a woman accept a date with me. Am I completely incorrect in my thinking? I meet woman. I am nice to woman. I get to know woman a little bit and ask her out. Is this wrong? Am I supposed to learn how to spit game in order to get a date? Am I supposed to wear Ed Hardy and fist-pump like a champ in order to attract women? I think most quality women think that stuff is kind of pathetic and immature. I never asked a man on a date, so I can’t fully answer your question.
     
    P.S. Please don’t take my bluntness and sarcasm as offense. I’m glad you replied to my comment, and I just tried to have a little fun with your questions.

55. Rose M 55

    @Lisa M. Did you ever once try to set him up with one of your friends, or help him find someone?  Sounds like you did not lie, but you also wanted him around to kiss your ass. (Did you ever use him for physical comfort?)
    Why did he “waste” ten years?  Maybe he was happy as things were. If he became hostile, he was not true to himself and the friendship for what it was, so maybe he did waste it.
    No other man “does it” for me like this one who is my friend.  We were romantic at one time, but he has made it clear I am not right for him. He is right for me though, and every other man I have dated for the past two years leaves me cold and there have been many. While I would welcome a relationship with this man I am content not being in a relationship with anyone and having him for a friend.  I can see myself still being content as things are in 10 years. C’est la vie.

56. Annie 56

    @52

    Arrgh, I dated some-one like that. He would turn even aggreements into arguments. He would start arguing the opposite of what he initially believed.

    Was most unusual. I have no idea why some-one would be like that.

57. JerseyGirl 57

    Nathan, you don’t just sound like a”nice guy”, you sound like a “good man”. And the world needs more of that! I really enjoyed and respected your persepective. Thanks for sharing it. 

    And I totally agree asking women to police men’s behavior isn’t going to solve the issue.

58. Sayanta 58

    Ruby and Ellen

    What if he grew up with Mommie Dearest?

59. Venus 59

    @BK

    I understand that you have had some unpleasant experiences with women.  But  even if you have to go through more of that type of behavior it is definitely worth the stress if/when you do find the person to share your life.   On the surface, we are all shallow.  We want someone that we find physically attractive.  That’s perhaps why the guys who put the most effort into their appearance and presentation tend to get the most attention.  So it might be worth your while to treat yourself to a makeover, (and some therapy/counseling/coaching ) before starting anew.  

    @AQ

    I love a man who can present a good debate.  Makes for interesting conversation and exchange.  Also incredibly sexy!

60. Lisa M. 60

    @BK: I wasn’t referring to you specifically I was talking about so-called nice guys. Who are always chasing after women who are out of their league and then start complaining that women are rejecting them for superficial reasons. Or bending over backwards for women who are not interested in him from the get-go and then saying the woman is at fault because she didn’t respond to his nice gestures.
    　
    It’s true that men and women can be swallow and superficial but from what I see it’s women who get these labels more than men do. Meanwhile, it’s not women who are the ones complaining about hot men rejecting them.

    In my opinion, most men are filled with entitlement; most of you are of the mindset that you should be able to have any woman you desire, no matter what you look like (from the hottest to the most unattractive) or have going on. Why? Male privilege due to Patriarchy. It seems no one dares to tell men that their standards in women are unrealistic at times and that women have a right to reject them for ever reasons she chooses. I know this is true due to my own personal encounters on a daily basis where men are quick to hurl insults at me when I don’t respond to their advances, as if, “how dare she not want me”. I see this behavior all day long from men from all walks of life and races. So, I know exactly what’s going with men in this area. I also think that this has caused a lot of men to become very angry and disillusioned with women because time and time again they are seeing that their male privilege isn’t working for them (unless their good-looking or very good-looking or moneyed or famous), especially these days when women can be more selective due to having more opportunities.

    While on the other hand, women are constantly browbeaten about being more realistic, compromising and settling even when you’re a 9 or a 10. No one is telling the below average or average looking guy that he won’t be able to pull 9s and 10s, so he is just being set up to fail. And now he’s angry at women and we are the enemy, when in fact he is his own enemy. Men are the ones who need to start being told that they need to compromise and be more realistic. It may do them some much needed good.

    　
    @Rose M: I have had a couple of girlfriends who expressed interest in him and I encouraged him to date them but he wasn’t interested. In fact, for the ten years that we were friends he didn’t date anyone. His passive- aggressive behavior became too much for me to take, so I moved on. He could have moved on anytime he wanted. I feel that if I hadn’t he would still be around and we haven’t been in touch for almost seven years now.

61. RH 61

    They’re awkward, cheap, sex-obsessed and selfish. They think they deserve richer men when they don’t. They’re afraid of commitment and run when you start to care for them.
    
    This is exactly the type of women many of my male friends run into on the dating scene. Notice that I  chaged it to “deserve someone richer” as many women are obsesed with how much money a man makes and it becomes the defining quality as to whether a man is worthy or not. You can pretend that women are good and men are louts but the reality is it runs both ways. The only answer is to not give time to the people who do not deserve it.

    And yes, women can be sex obsessed as well as reject someone because of how they look.

62. Nicole 62

    @BK,
    I don’t know what you look like, but you allude to your appearance being an impediment.  Everyone is good looking to someone.  I still think that you might be barking up the wrong trees, so to speak, although now you say that you aren’t even trying.

    But I personally think that your issue might be your personality.  You might be a nice guy but if there are other difficulties that you have in how you come across to women, you might want to look into that.  You suggested that women don’t like good looking guys can be assertive and other guys cannot.  That’s not true.  It’s all about boundaries and being able ot read people and knowing that is charming and what is creepy and being good at flirty and casual banter (esp. with strangers).  I’m not creeped out if an unnattractive man flirts with me.  I may not want it, but it’s not creepy or pervy.  And in fact, good flirty and witty banter is exactly where charming but not exceptionally handsome men gain a LOT of ground with women.  No one likes boring no matter what the package is. 

    I have trouble believing that an average guy who is nice to women would always strike out.  And you do realize that it takes more than someone thinking that you are nice to want to date you.  It still sounds a bit entitled to gripe that you do favors for people but that they won’t date you.  Whether it’s just dating (which is going to lead to some kind of physical relationship if it lasts longs enough) or quick sex (you aren’t going to get that for changing someone’s tires), you do realize that it’s not a quid pro quo situation right? You can’t do things for someone of any gender and think that you are building up credits that entitle you to dates or anything else.  How could you think that?  Women go out with men that they barely know, and no, not just good looking guys, so no, you can’t nor do you need to earn dates by doing favors.

    But I have known people who were nice but had personality “quirks” that perhaps they needed to work on and that would make them unappealing choices to most women, yet they probably don’t know why they are always getting turned down and think it’s b/c women are awful and shallow and just want hot jocks (seriously, who is a hot jock at 50?  George Clooney is darn good looking but he’s definitely getting long in the tooth, so there has to be more than just a nice face at this point).  I just think that the way that you express yourself, based on your comments, could be something to work on with a coach of some kind. 

    You’ll see short men, fat men, balding men, men who are lacking conventionally good looks with good looking women.  And I can say that as a now adult woman, a great personality matters so much more.  But not everyone is a good judge of how their personality comes across to other people, and if you aren’t good at reading your audience, that compounds the problem. 

    I personally think that you are not evaluating where you come up short properly. 

63. BK 63

    @Nicole
     
    Please please please don’t twist my words. And I don’t think you are, but maybe you just aren’t understanding me well enough, and maybe some of that is my fault for not communicating effectively. I do not do favors to rack up dating credits. I do not think doing favors entitles me to anything. I don’t have some sort of internal monologue that tells me all I have to do is help her a few times so she has social pressure on her to date me. That’s absurd. Much of what I do with women isn’t even favors. I’m sorry if I gave you that impression. The huge majority of women I know I met at parties through friends or in some setting where favors weren’t even considered. I consider nice guy behavior to be not trying to score with a woman from the very start. I hang out with women, and I occasionally do things with them as I would with anybody who I didn’t think was a waste of my time. I don’t think it’s a ridiculous idea that two people can get to know each other a bit before they even consider a different type (more romantic) of relationship. Also, I don’t believe I’m average, and I never said I was. In looks, I’d give myself a 1. I think it’s reasonable to assume that if I’m in a room of 50 men, I’m easily one of the 5 ugliest. As far as personality, I don’t think you can judge me based on our brief internet convo. I was always considered the funniest guy in class. I was always voted president of whatever organization because I was fairly popular. I was always the lead in the school plays, which I just happened to join because a lot of my friends were in. It turned out I was a pretty good actor, and I became liked and respected. And acting helped me learn to be confident and not shy. I wasn’t one of those awkward kids. I was one of those kids who developed a personality to make up for my lack of good looks. I just wasn’t liked in a romantic/sexual way. You might need to re-evaluate what girls of that age are attracted to. Hint: It ain’t the funny, slightly geeky but nice guy…unless he’s also cute.
     
    @Venus and Nicole
     
    I honestly do appreciate that you even took your time to respond and care. However, I’m sick of women telling me, “You’re the type of guy women marry” and “You’ll make some girl really happy someday.” Seriously, fuck that. I will not wait for women to get through their bad boy phase while I get nothing. I don’t want to be liked because you’ve finally learned to accept me. I have qualities that make me a good boyfriend. While I was with the only woman I’ve ever been with, her mother was in the hospital almost the entire time we were together. I could have opted out of that relationship and not taken the hassle. But I didn’t. Even though she cried a lot, and it obviously killed her libido, I was understanding. She’d visit her mom and call me from the hospital, and I’d step out from partying with my friends to talk to her. I’m a good person, and I’ve never deserved any of the shit I’ve been put through. Well, maybe some of it, but not most of it.
     
    As a fan of Nietzsche, one of his quotes always secretly meant something to me: “In men who are hard, intimacy involves shame–and is precious.” I consider myself a hard man. I had to be in the conditions in which I grew up. So, while I would consider intimacy with a special woman to be a very precious thing to me, I think I’ve gotten to the point of hardness where I don’t even consider romantic intimacy an option. You’d be wrong if you think everyone’s ultimate goal is to find love. Maybe that’s not my goal. Just accept that.

64. Ruby 64

    Sayanta #58

    We are talking normal circumstances here. Mommie Dearest types are not the norm. The idea is that someone who has big issues with his mother would be likely to take that out on his his partner. And if mom was a psycho, he’d need a lot of therapy first.

65. Venus 65

    @RH

    Tell your friends that they should stop chasing after women who are half their age and way out of their league (where looks are concerned)  and they will no longer have those issues. 

    Yes a man’s income is important.  Its an indication of stability and security.  Both are desirable traits when we start to talk commitment.  And at my age (45), income is important as an assessment of lifestyle compatibility.  I don’t need a man to match my salary, but he must be able to afford a decent living.  I would have a hard time respecting him otherwise.

66. Annie 66

    @63

    You are trying to appeal to a girl, like you are one. You are not.

    You are so obviously a man…..go be the guy you are

    

67. starthrower68 67

    @ BK #63,

    So what you’re really saying is you don’t want to date?

68. Nicole 68

    @BK.
    No, I can’t evaluate you, but I still see people that might be 1′s who are coupled up, and if it’s the man who is “less attractive” a lot of times the woman is good looking.  I really think you need help and finding the right women and the ways to approach them.  You clearly don’t have to be friends with everyone before you date, and I think that if you get into the friend zone with a woman, it can be hard to get out of it. 

    Beauty is very subjective so even if you are  1 to some people, and even if you somehow miss the mark with the majority of people, you’ll be fine to some people. 

    Are you still in your 20′s, b/c now I’m thinking that you are possibly pretty young to think that women only want hot bad boys and that you can’t possibly wait that out?

    I mean, I don’t know you, but I’ve known guys who might describe themselves the same way and they all wound up married to someone, and no, they didn’t have to settle or wind up with someone unattractive.  Maybe you don’t get 100 women, maybe you don’t get 20, but I think that if you get back into it, you’ll find some nice women.  It is interesting how even after things work out, some men will have issues about how “hard” it was for them to get anywhere with women.  I’ve definitely known people who would have described their 20′s the way that you have been describing your life, and they didn’t even had the benefit of being tall as a way to attract women.

    It does kind of sound like you make some of the mistakes that many of the women write in to ask about…hanging around people who aren’t giving you what you need and deserve for example.  And you want to support people through hard times but make sure that they aren’t just going to make you a crutch and then move on to someone else when times are better. 

    Confidence works wonders for men.  You cannot go into a room thinking that you are one of the ugliest guys there.  Even if you aren’t the best looking guy, if you are tall and funny and confident, that will work for several women, and no, you won’t have to wait until you are 40 for that to be true.   Lots of men who aren’t “good looking” and who are maybe even ugly do well with women, but they probably don’t think that they are ugly and they don’t think it’s a game ender when they strike out.
     
    I just think that maybe some life coaching and dating coaching to work on approach (if you think women aren’t naturally going to be attracted to you and also so you won’t always feel like you are the worst guy in the room) would be helpful. 

    And maybe if you are young enough, you should find one of those cougars who write in here complaining that the men their own age are too old and can’t keep up with them…

69. Zaq 69

    @BK

    If your only problem is looks then you are lucky.
    Do Ernest Borgnine, Danny De Vito, Charles Bronson ring any bells.
    If you are really ugly some women will actually see “character” in your face, and think you are attractive.
    Very young women mostly go on looks. That’s before they discover the true value of money.
    If you want someone to like you, apparently the best way is to get them to do things for you. They convince themselves that they must like you to justify their effort !
    Let them know early on that you find them attractive and flirt. Show off your sense of humour. Don’t go after anyone too attractive.
    You will get rejected. Thats women. Keep trying.

    Actually, I dont know why women think men are only after the “hot” babes. If only they knew how much rejection we get.

    If all else fails there’s always plastic surgery.

70. Venus 70

    @ BK

    OK but one last bit of advice.   Stop feeling sorry for yourself!!!! Not an attractive trait.

71. Lisa M. 71

    Ernest Borgnine, Danny De Vito and Charles Bronson are famous actors. So, they have another angle other than their looks to get women to be interested in them.   And most people tend to date others that are equal in looks and appearance. Sometimes a guy having a great personality can go a long way. 

    I have attempted to date men that weren’t really my “type” (they were shorter than me) and after being pursued by them I decided to give a chance but their personalities were just horrible.  But if they were more pleasant to be around I would have given them serious consideration. 

    A guy can be nice but what women really want is a guy that is decent. He makes you feel safe, secure, respected, desirable and sexy at least that’s how I want to feel when I’m with a guy.  And if I’m with a guy and I don’t feel like this I can’t go any further with him. 

    We also want him to do what he says he’s going to do, can be decisive and has a backbone. We’re not looking for someone to kiss our asses and worship us (any woman who wants that has some serious issues of her own). 

    I don’t know why men think that women prefer jerks and assholes. Emotionally healthy mature women who think highly of themselves do not want men like this.   Yeah, really young girls do because they are not emotionally mature enough to know what they want in a mate yet. What should be clear is that any adult woman who wants a man who treats her badly has some or a lot of emotionally issues.  So I don’t know why there’s any focus on those women, when there are women who appreciate good treatment from decent a guy. Let me repeat, a decent guy-not a butt kissing entitled pushover.  Guys like this generate absolutely no attraction in a woman, unless she is a complete mess.
     

72. JerseyGirl 72

    RH: This is exactly the type of women many of my male friends run into on the dating scene. Notice that I  chaged it to “deserve someone richer” as many women are obsesed with how much money a man makes and it becomes the defining quality as to whether a man is worthy or not. You can pretend that women are good and men are louts but the reality is it runs both ways.
    —————————————————————–

    RH, first, most women aren’t as picky about looks as men are. To me, it seems like even normal guys think they deserve Maxim models. And if they don’t get Maxim models, you can be sure that even if you are his girlfriend, he will still make time to stare at/get off to all kinds of Maxim like looking girls. At least women aren’t sitting around mastubating to super rich guys. Then you really would have something to complain about. And yes, there are women that will only date men that make a certain amount of money. However, I usually find that these are a certain type of women. Just as there are “bad boys”, these women are men’s version of “bad girls’. They are beautiful. They are fun. They are comfortable around men and love male attention. Rich guys and average guys alike are attracted to them. Then said “average guy” complains because these type of women aren’t interested in *him* in all his glorious averageness. However, around the corner there is a competely equally or cute average girl that wouldn’t mind spending some time with him. I don’t care how much money a man makes. But I will tell you what I do care about. If he is a motivated person or not. If he works to improve himself. That’s what matters. Because I am always working to improve myself too.

73. RH 73

    Hello JersyGirl,
    I have never been turned down for a second or third date and I believe that is due to my looks plain and simple. I have been told that I am beautiful, have a kick ass body and yes I have been used as arm candy. I am a Man.
    I have however been dumped after 3 weeks of what seemed to be a nice relationship after being told “Now that the my cousins wedding is over I don’t see a point in going on”. Apparently I was used by her to impress the other women at the wedding party.
    I have also been told, after transitioning out of my past job of male modelling into something more fulfilling, that , although I’m hot my current career  just doesn’t cut it. I work with Alzheimer patients and no, it does not pay as well but I now have meaningful work and a soul.
    I have gone out on dates where the woman has ordered the most expensive items,expected me to pay(I’m always happy to pay but an offer to help pay is always nice) and then,this is the worst part, did not even bother to thank me at the end of the night.
    I’m sure you will now focus on my personality in the belief that something must be wrong. All I can say is that when I worked in the “Industry” I was constantly told I was hired because of my easy going,friendly,no hassle ways. I was always on time,polite and courteous. It wasn’t an act just the way I am.
    I have a wonderful daughter, was married for 20 yrs and am now a Widower just trying to make it in the dating world.
    From my experience Women are just as shallow as men. Not better, not worse…both are flawed. The only solution is to give less time to those who do not deserve it.
     

74. BeenThereDoneThat 74

    @ RH
    Why would you want to date anyone that thought of you as arm candy?  I would be glad someone had showed me their shallow nature before I got too involved and be happy to be away.  I want someone who thinks I’m attractive, but I want them to see that I am more than what I look like.  I’m sure you are the same.  When they can’t, be glad they are gone. 

75. Lisa M. 75

    @RH

    Hell yes, women are just as shallow as men are. The difference is that women are socialized not to take a man’s looks into account when she is seeking a mate.  Instead, we are socialized to choose a man based on his social status and how well he can provide financially.  So, we do often lie about not caring about the way a man looks because it would not be look upon well by others.  In my experience, as a woman who has no problem letting it be known that I prefer good-looking men and when this is said out loud in front of others they then attempt to browbeat me and call me out on being shallow and superficial and this is usually done by other women.  Why? Socializing.  I am almost certain this doesn’t happen to men when they announce their preference for beautiful women. As a woman, you feel this way but you can’t openly admit to it most of the time. So when asked what we are looking for in a man we are careful not to emphasize his looks as being important. This then misleads men into thinking that he doesn’t have to take care of his appearance or has to be good-looking to attract women and with the media is providing him with false proof in movies and TV shows where the below average or average guy gets the “hot girl”.  He then believes we don’t care about his looks but he than finds out that he can’t have any woman he wants just by treating her really nicely, buying her things and providing security.

    BH, being good-looking guy you already knows this about most women (not all but most) first hand.  You also can’t totally fault SOME of us for caring about how much money a guy makes.  That’s the way we have been socialized for centuries and that’s not going to change anytime soon either.    
     
     

76. BK 76

    @starthrower68
    Exactly. I don’t want to date anymore. I’ve had enough of rejection without success that the entire process doesn’t seem worth it. Thats why I brought up the Pavlov thing. Maybe if I had had success at some point, then I wouldn’t be so against the process now. It’s conditioning. This is just me. I’ve made up my mind, but it seems like I’m being told I should change it.
     
    @Nicole
    Yes, I’m in my 20s. And it’s not that I CAN’T wait out girls and their bad boy phase as much as I WON’T wait it out. Because what am I waiting for? The opportunity to buy a woman a meal who will eventually realize she doesn’t like me for various reasons? And do this over and over and over again until I get it right? Something about the idea that women get to have their cake with the bad boys when they want and then get to eat it to by having me take them on a serious date when they decide they’re ready just doesn’t sit well with me. Especially when I’m getting nothing now. I know myself, and I would resent any woman who wanted to go on a date with me when she’s 32 while she spent the last decade screwing emotionally unavailable yet handsome men. I would almost feel used. That’s just me. I’m cynical.
     
    And about being a 1, I evaluate myself as that, but I also have it on good word from my female friends. While they were drunk, they’ve told me I’m a 1, and I should start saving my money for prostitutes. The drunkenness and context of the conversation makes me believe they were being truthful while also prevents me from being too upset with them. I guess it’s a little funny.
     
    @Zaq
    Something about women thinking men only go after Maxim models while also complaining about how they themselves are always being annoyed by guys who are trying to get in their pants just doesn’t add up. Especially on dating sites. Do they think they’re all 10s? I don’t know. I do know that I have 300 lb. female friends who get laid constantly, though. I think we men like having sex much more than we like hot women. Having a vagina is more powerful than being a size 2. Thanks for the advice on the plastic surgery.

77. Sayanta 77

    BK

    If you’re that set on not dating, why read this blog? It sounds like maybe you’ve been burnt by a particular woman recently and are making generalizations based on that experience.

78. Sayanta 78

    One more thing, bk- your friends sound extremely cruel. Accusing you of rape? Saying you can’t do any better than prostitutes? You really need to become more self-loving and cut off these toxic people.

79. Ronnie Ann Ryan - The Dating Coach 79

    Evan - this post has created a war of the sexes whoa! But for me as a colleague and dating coach for women over 40, I think you handled this situation beautifully. Women don’t want to change – but they want men to change? Hello? The only thing in life we have control over is ourselves. So it stands to reason, if you want change, be the change. And I love how you used logic to hopefully get women to see that ALL MEN aren’t louts, just some. And from my male clients, I can tell you some women are louts too! So, for the women reading your posts, here’s confirmation that Evan is right on the money.

80. Lisa M. 80

    “Having a vagina is more powerful than being a size 2. Thanks for the advice on the plastic surgery.”

    This is a major factor in why men resent women so much. We can get laid anytime we want and it doesn’t matter what we look like or how much money we have.  We basically just have to ask for it. Men have given us this power over them since most of them are slaves to their libidos and will lay any woman who will let them. This has caused most men to harbor a lot resentment towards women.

     “Something about women thinking men only go after Maxim models while also complaining about how they themselves are always being annoyed by guys who are trying to get in their pants just doesn’t add up”.
     
     Women complaining about being annoyed by men hitting on them for sex may not add up to you because you’re a man.  Women don’t go around relentlessly pursuing and harassing men for sex.  Most men don’t know what it feels like to be objectified (not a good feeling for a woman) since they’re usually the ones doing the objectifying. 
     
    Seriously, I would suggest that you start looking into dating older women. 

81. Speed 81

    BK, you have to man up, buddy. If you think you’re a “1,” then get in the gym and eat right and do a basic fashion makeover. You can at least upgrade yourself to a “5,” which, statistically, most people are.
    This is not just to chase to women. It’s to be a productive, positive person who can achieve things for themselves.
    In my experience, women are attracted to men who achieve, and not necessarily financially. The ambitious artist, the dedicated teacher or community activist—all can exude the powerful scent of masculinity that women like.
    I just want you to be happy and positive, man. See you in the gym.

82. Sharon 82

     
    @ BK

    ” I can’t name a single woman who I knew in my time growing up who didn’t judge men primarily on looks.”

    You’ve said you have female friends thus women are able to reward your kindness with friendship. It seems however you don’t think friendship is a good enough return on being a gentleman.

    Fair enough, the need for sex and dates is an important of being socially accepted. But you can’t take the need for attraction out of the equation for a physical relationship. As others have said plenty of ugly people get laid, married and what not. So I find it hard to believe your only problem is physical but damn there’s nothing a dermatologist, dentist, personal trainer, plastic surgeon and a decent set of clothes can’t greatly improve. 

    About the Maxim models, Women get annoyed because men will sleep with anything so a guy that’s an 8 will tell a 5 she’s perfect to get her into bed and then bounce. But a guy that’s a 5 with reasonable charisma can date an 8 for as long as he damn well pleases. So the 5 confused because she probably should be dating a 3-5.

83. Venus 83

    Agreeing with Speed!  If there is a problem identify the source and fix it.  Get independent help if necessary.   You do this for your Television, Car, pet.  Why not invest the time and effort in yourself. 

    Agreeing with Annie.  Making friends with women is not an effective way to start a romantic encounter.  Once you get placed in the friend zone it can be very hard to have her consider you seriously as a romatic prospect.  Personally I get creeped out if a guy friend attempts to make a pass at me.  Doesn’t matter what he looks like.  I am cool having drinks or going to the mall with him, but I wont date or sleep with him.  If you are in the friend zone, you become more like a brother than a lover.

    Not sure why Lisa M thinks your solution is to date older women.  Perhaps she can tell us how are they different from other women.  Really interested in that answer. 

    @RH
    Am I understanding that you have a steady job and you are exceptionally good looking yet you have issues with women?  Its a given that attractive men have it much easier than unattractive men (this applies to life in general, not just women). 

    If you find you are having persistent problems with women,  you shouldn’t blame your looks or your job.  It probably goes a lot deeper than that.

    Hmmm…does anyone else see the irony in the RH and BK  positions?  Really strange that two men claiming to speak from different ends of the attractiveness spectrum blame women for using them and treating them poorly in part because of they way they look.  ??

84. Lisa M. 84

    I think young guys like, BK, would probably do better dating older women (30′s & 40′s maybe) just until the women his own age are ready to settle to down. I don’t know. He’s complaining about women his own age only wanting to have sex with bad boys, jerks, assholes and so on.  So, maybe the temporary solution for him might be going for older women. Like I said, it’s just a suggestion. 

    I agree working on his appearance might make a difference. I don’t know why guys who are having trouble connecting with women because of their looks won’t make the decision to improve their appearance to increase their odds with women, especially, when they are finally hit with the reality that women care very much about looks.

85. nathan 85

    Lisa “You also can’t totally fault SOME of us for caring about how much money a guy makes.  That’s the way we have been socialized for centuries and that’s not going to change anytime soon either. ” Oh, so your ok with men saying things like “we’ve been socialized to think of you as less intelligent, or as weak and in need of being protected, or as possessions, or – fill in the blank.”
    I doubt many women would be ok with such statements, so don’t be surprised when men also question things that have been “socialized” for decades, even centuries as well.
    Also, I’d like to second Venus’ comment about about BK and RH’s points about looks from the opposite perspective. I don’t know what exactly is happening for each of them, but it does seem like both are too reliant on blaming women for the bulk of their misfortunes.
    Guys – all I can tell you is that I have been on at least 150 dates over the past four years. I actually had a relationship that lasted about 10 months during that time, but the rest has been mostly riding the roller-coaster of online dating or dates with friends of friends. I have experienced plenty of “bad behavior,” including women flaking out, lying, being trivial, etc. I have also had plenty of positive experiences, even with women I knew I’d never see again after that date.
    The way I see it, the times I have gotten into ruts are exactly when I’m focused on the crappy dates and lousy behavior. It just seems to bring more of that in – focusing on it. And so, instead, I either choose to take a break all together, or forget about the crappy and enter into the next date with openness. Not always easy, especially if you’ve had a string of not so good dates, but you always have a choice in how you’re gonna view it.

86. BK 86

    @Sayanta
    I come to this site because I think Evan is a smart dude with interesting things to say, and I like reading the comments. I just like learning how people think and feel about various things. And this is a dating advice site for women…I’m not sure how much of this advice pertains to me. It’s interesting and well-written, though.
     
    @Lisa
    I would agree with a lot of what you said except the part about objectification. Even though we all don’t know what it’s like to be treated like a sex object, we all get objectified in one way or another. You admitted women care very much about looks. And, just for clarification, what didn’t add up was how it’s been said men only want or seem to believe they deserve a Maxim model and yet any woman get can get laid whenever she wants. If she’s having sex with a man, and she herself is not a model, then maybe men don’t just want models.
     
    @Speed & Sharon
    I think if you witnessed my diet/exercise routine, you’d be surprised that I look how I look. I look like an offensive lineman. I’m big, but I’m strong. I don’t know how many 310 lb guys can do one-handed push-ups, but I can. I used to run. I eat well. I’m pretty much a vegetarian, but I do have grilled chicken every now and then. I don’t remember the last time I had a french fry or a burger or a piece of pizza, but it’s been well over a year since I had a slip-up. I stopped eating fast food at 16. I don’t eat well because it helps me lose weight (because it doesn’t), I eat well because it makes me feel good. I’ll admit to doing some very dangerous things to lose weight when I was younger, but they didn’t work, and I don’t do them anymore. I’ve never had a skin issue, and my teeth are actually pretty nice, but I did wear braces for a while in high school because of a slight overbite. I saw a study once where younger women are attracted to skinnier men and men who have less body fat, but women who are more mature find a chubbier man a bit more attractive. I don’t know from personal experience of this is true, but it could explain why I was never found attractive by my peers. (And please don’t say I should have a better chance when I get older if this is true. I don’t want to hear it. It’s not going to matter because I’m shutting it down. I’m stubborn, and I’ve made up my mind.)
     
    I’m not completely unhappy with the way I look. Sure, I wish I could lose some of the gut, but I kinda like the way I look. I like looking and being strong and powerful. It may not make women see me as a potential sex partner, but it makes men show me some respect. I have my fair share of scars, which probably doesn’t make my face any more attractive, but they came in situations I couldn’t really avoid at the time. I wouldn’t want to look like a scrawny-ass underwear model who doesn’t look like he’s ever had a hard day in his life. I’m not the one who doesn’t like the way I look, it’s women who don’t. And I hope you don’t all think I’m crying myself to sleep every night because I’m so alone. I’m not. What made me unhappy was rejection, and I choose not to be rejected anymore. That’s why I don’t pursue women. It made me unhappy.
     

87. kenley 87

    BK,

    If you don’t want to date, I say more power to you.  Dating is something that is best done with a positive and upbeat attitude.   If you are angry and resentful, then I don’t think it makes sense for you to date.  There are plenty of people who don’t and they are perfectly happy.

    I do, however, want to address what you said about women of all ages, sizes, and looks being able to get laid whenever they want.  That’s true.  The problem is, that’s not what most of these women want.  They want a relationship.  For a hot minute, I used to think that being sexy and having men wanting to have sex with me was great.  What I discovered is that for men who want sex, I’m not a woman, I’m just a vessel.   They care little if anything about me and that includes giving me pleasure.  For lost of men who want sex,  ANY woman would do.  Feeling like an easily exchangeable commodity doesn’t make any woman feel good.

    I realize that because you can’t get laid whenever you want, you may not want to shed any tears for the ladies who can.  But trust me, it’s not fulfilling for us when what we really want is some to love and love us back and not just someone to screw.

88. BK 88

    @kenley
    Well, I won’t say all women all want relationships just as I won’t say all women all want random sex. I agree with most of what you said, though, and I do know a lot of women like the ones you describe who really want a relationship, and I know a lot of women who merely act as “vessels.” (I’ve often talked with these vessel women and their unhappiness with pleasure during sex with random men. It doesn’t occur to them that the man, not having anything emotionally invested in her, doesn’t really care about her pleasure. I suggest maybe getting a man they feel something for, but their solution is always a dude with a bigger penis.) However, I think, at least in my experiences dealing with younger women, sex is a big decider in who to have a relationship with. If a man approaches a woman and she recognizes he’s not up to her physical standards for her to want to have sex with him, I think that guy will be ignored after 3 minutes. He won’t even get a date. I think we’ve established that women also judge men on looks. My stance is that because women are the ones who determine which guys they deem worthy, they hold a lot of power. Especially since men, in general, REALLY want to have sex. That’s not to say the women necessarily appreciate holding this power, but they do have it.
     
    I also feel that many of the women I’ve known want the men who have so many options that they’d never choose to have a relationship with so many women throwing it at them constantly. I don’t think women like assholes because they’re attracted to assholes. I think men become assholes because a lot of women are attracted to them, and they can act any way they want because these men hold the same sexual power that women do. Totally different conversation…
     
    Thanks for the support…

89. Venus 89

    @ BK

    Being overweight is not the end of the world.  So you have decided to give up dating, you should still continue to work on yourself.  Get a personal trainer and some work out buddies.  Training can actually be fun.  

    One of my interns who was quite overweight when he left for college came back even bigger after he was finished his education – but with a fiancee who was slim and beautiful.  He is now 26 and still big but a generally happy and productive guy that everyone likes.  He struggles with his weight but has not allowed that to prevent him from enjoying his life.   I am saying that attitude counts. 

    Work on the weight and do things that you enjoy.  Women are likely to be drawn to you if you are confident and happy.  Get yourself some swagger.

    BTW, even the most attractive of men endure some rejection.  I believe this is what makes men more resilent than women.  They are better able to shake of the effect of a let down, and move on to the next. 

90. Zaq 90

    BK

    I am sure many of the peeps on this blog are thinking that there is more to this than looks.
    There is a video out on the web of some dating research involving speed dating.
    First they moved the men from table to table, but none was allowed to speak. By means of a hidden dial, all the daters registered their attraction to the date based purely on sight.
    Then they repeated the process, but this time allowing them to chat and reveal other factors such as intelligence, and personality.
    After they were able to see what effect personality had on peoples initial judgment.
    The result – none whatsoever.
    So yes people do judge on looks !

    However, the researchers did come to a conclusion on what was the physical trait that women were most attracted to. According to the scientist, you dont need to go to the gym, you dont need to have confidence. You just need to be TALL.
    Indeed, they made a point that the men could have been talking utter gibberish, but if they were tall, that was enough.

    There’s another video showing men being given lessons from chat up artists. One was short, one was tall, and one was fat. All of the men felt they were unattractive to women. After the tuition, the only one that did well was the tall one.
    There’s a great shot of him surround by women, one of whom was staring up at him with her mouth open !
    And you are 6ft 2 inches !!

    By the way research shows women prefer men slightly overweight on the BMI scale.

    I just remembered there is another video showing the dating problems of a university lecturer. Clearly very intelligent, but physically unattractive and underweight.
    They put him in a shop window and asked female passers by on a scale of 1 to 10 whether they would go out with him. Very low marks, including a 0 I think.
    They then repeated, but this time put him in an expensive suit, shoes, watch – gave him shades. I.E signs of wealth. 
    Guess what, scores went up alot

    Confidence and a makeover can go along way

     

91. m 91

    I don’t think women are sick of compromising at all.

    I do think women are sick — and justifiably so — of having to put in all the effort (spending more time, money, and effort on appearance; maintaining the home and minding the children in addition to their career responsibilities, being told they can’t expect to be able to problem-solve jointly with their men because “men need their space”) in relationships and being told to expect that the men will be putting in none.

92. m 92

    “Women don’t want to change – but they want men to change? Hello?”

    Yeah, Ronnie Ann – I don’t think you’re really representing the POV of all women here.

    Please consider the possibility that women are willing to change and may already have done so, and/or that they continue to compromise — but that what they’re running into is men — and a lot of them, maybe even the majority of them — who refuse to change.

    You’re writing like that’s  a scenario you haven’t even considered.

93. RH 93

    @Venus
     
    Hello,
     
    I’m not too sure where you feel that I’m saying I have trouble with Women..I don’t…what I’m saying is that Women can treat men just as badly as men treat women. I know this because I am a man and have bee treated badly by women.
    I do find it ironic though that when some women complain about men it is a given that…yes men are bad …but when some men complain about women then it is a given, by some women, that the men must be dysfunctional somehow.
    You should re-read my post as I think you missed some important points.Most specifically the one where I say..From my experience Women are just as shallow as men. Not better, not worse…both are flawed. The only solution is to give less time to those who do not deserve it..
    I’m not blaming a gender…I’m blaming jerks as well as those of us who have in the past or are right now giving too much of our precious time to them.
    If you choose to see me as dysfunctional because I point out that both sexes have issues then so be it..but remember Evan points out the  exact same thing.
    Men can’t all be wrong nor can women be all right..especially when generalizing.

94. RH 94

    @Nathan.
    You should really re-read my post. All I’m pointing out is that women are as flawed as men. You’ve said it yourself in your own posting.
    I’m not blaming anyone for my circumstance. I was in a 20year relationship until like took an unfortunate turn. The dating world is relatively new to me but when I hear people say “men are this” or “women are that”  I think it needs to be pointed out that, no “people are this” and “people are that”. It’s not gender specific.

95. Lisa M. 95

    m@ 91 & 92, I totally agree.

96. Venus 96

    @ RH

    You should re-read your previous post.  That is exactly the impression you are giving.

97. nathan 97

    RH,
    Going back to your original comment at 61, yes, I see what you’re saying. However, your comment at 73, could be mistakenly read as blaming on it’s own, as some are reading it here. I guess it’s one of the challenges of having so many different commenters. If you made a point earlier on in a discussion, if others miss it, they simply see what you’ve said more recently

98. sharon 98

    @ RH
    Yes they’re are alot of crappy women out there. But if we look at the rates of which women are abused, raped, and murdered by their partners. I truly can say, no women absolutely do not treat men as badly.

99. RH 99

     
    @Nathan,
    Yes, thank you for pointing that out Nathan. I realized as well that some people may not have realized that I was responding to previous post and taken what I said  out of context in the sense that they may have thought  I was just ranting out of nowhere…I do that to but this time I’m not.lol
    Most of my dates have been wonderful and I know full well that there are wonderful Women and Men out there…I was married to one for 20yrs but I,as have others, have been guilty of giving the wrong people too much time. That’s why I sent my Daughter to Evans sight when she started dating…he explicitly says…it’s not that you attract the wrong types it’s that you give the wrong types too much time. Excellent advice in my view.
     
     
     
     

100. RH 100

     @Sharon,
     Absolutely. When we are talking about extreme sorts of violence, i.e. rape,murder and so on…Women are far worse off( although spousal rates for murder are equal).
     But what we’re talking about here ,I think, is jerky behavior. The type that is inconsiderate of another’s feelings and the type who only looks out for themselves. I think we can agree that men do not have a monopoly on that. We do however have a monopoly on not helping out enough around the house…not all men..but many.
     Well people it’s been fun and very informative. I’m going to try and get my Daughter to NOT  show me any more EMK posting as I’ve spent way too much time debating the issues. I haven’t done this much debating since my Uni days.lol

101. m 101

     “I don’t have the power to change men. I don’t have the mandate to change men. Men don’t read this kind of dating advice, much less from a dating coach who works with “smart, strong, successful women.” As such, any blog post in which I write advice for men to change would be a big waste of space. Right?”
     
     Well … no.
     Not right, actually.

     Men do read your advice; they do read your blog. There are several of them commenting in this very thread.

     Also, when men do look for advice, most frequently they look for another man to provide it; they’re far more likely to heed it coming from a man than a woman.

     (There are studies. Everyone, feel free to Google on your own.)

     Not only that, if they’re looking for advice — or tips, since I’d bet some of them would never actually admit to needing advice, but nonetheless read avidly, LOL — as to how to best attract the kind of woman you coach, who better to look to than the guru that advises them?

     All I would say is, if you’re serious about helping the people you coach – which you clearly are – and serious about your own success rate – equally clear – but you continue to only address half of the problem …

102. m 102

     Lisa M., I appreciate the thumbs-up — and you did say some pretty trenchant things that I hope don’t get lost in the walls of words, like this –

     “ No one is telling the below average or average looking guy that he won’t be able to pull 9s and 10s, so he is just being set up to fail. And now he’s angry at women and we are the enemy, when in fact he is his own enemy.”

     and 

     “So, we do often lie about not caring about the way a man looks because it would not be look [sic] upon well by others … This then misleads men into thinking that he doesn’t have to take care of his appearance … to attract women ”

     Very to-the-point, imo.

     However.

     I have to admit I did give the side-eye and the head-tilt to some of your “advice” to … BK, is it?  To just “I think young guys like, BK, would probably do better dating older women (30′s; 40′s maybe) just until the women his own age are ready to settle to down.”

     The problem with advice like that to me is that it doesn’t really seem to have that much regard for the “older” women he’d be dating.  He’s supposed to date them and then “when the women his own age are ready to settle down” just say to the women he’s dating “See ya, wouldn’t wanna be ya?”

     o.O

     I’m just … not seeing that as a place a woman in her 30s or so, looking for a serious relationship, would want to put herself in.

103. Evan Marc Katz 103

     m

     You’re clearly a bright woman. Your contributions are unfailingly well-written. However, there’s two things that I need to clear up:

     1) I am a dating coach for smart, strong, successful women. Says it on the top of my website. It is not my mandate to change men. It is not, might I add, YOUR mandate to change men. It is your mandate to date men that you don’t feel you have to change. If you don’t like how men act, then leave. Simple. A man can’t treat you in a way that you don’t allow yourself to be treated.

     2) Every one of your posts has a clear bias that can be distilled into “stop telling me what women do wrong; the problem is MEN”. And while I wouldn’t disagree with you on probably 90% of your complaints about men, I will remind you to refer to point number 1. I can’t change men. I don’t give advice to men. You can’t change men. You can’t give advice to men. If men want to change because they keep losing the “m’s” of the world, then they will start to learn new ways of acting. My website is for women who want to connect with good men and are open to the possibility that THEY’RE doing something wrong that THEY can change themselves. So every time I post a response to a woman, telling her what SHE could be doing differently, and YOU come back with a post saying, “No, no, no…it’s MEN who suck…” it’s frankly exhausting. Not to mention pointless.

     Please accept that this blog is what it is, my business is what it is, and men are what they are, and stop giving advice to men on a blog that gives advice to women. It’s off-topic and it takes away from the real learning experience for women.

     Thank you, and have a great weekend.

     Evan

104. Ruby 104

     Speed #81

     “In my experience, women are attracted to men who achieve, and not necessarily financially. The ambitious artist, the dedicated teacher or community activist—all can exude the powerful scent of masculinity that women like.”

     I think you are absolutely right. I think this also applies to the whole “Alpha/Beta Male” thread as well. These are the kinds of men who are passionate about what they do, but also have a sensitive side. Come to think of it, I’ve known plenty of men who appreciated this quality in a woman as well, despite the fact that some would say that men don’t care what a woman has achieved. Having goals, passion, dedication to something is simply an attractive quality, period.

105. Lisa M. 105

     Evan, as I was reading your response to, m, it started me thinking about the men (two in particular) who have been making comments here. It could be that SOME of them are here to derail our conversations. They are coming here to vent about their dissatisfaction with women and they want a female audience in which to do so. There are many blogs and websites where men are congregating to vent and voice their distain of women. We have RH and BK who have come to a blog for women to directly blame with us for the issues they are having in their love life and are having debates with us. Therefore, derailing the direction of the conversations. Turning them into a battle between the sexes.
     　
     To the other men that comment here who actually want to get some perspective on women to help them understand us better…I’m not referring to you, okay?
     　
     I wasn’t really giving the men here advice exactly. I was voicing some of my frustrations with some male behavior that I have grown quite tire of. As a beautiful woman (I think other beautiful women here know what I’m talking about), I am constantly having to deal with male entitlement issues which is a pet peeve of mine because of the headaches it causes me, at times . Since some of the men are coming to a site that gives advice to women with the intention to vent, then I feel the need to let them know exactly what women feel and think about them. I don’t go to male oriented blogs that give advice to men about women (By the way, I don’t see this blog as an avenue to vent about men) to complain about men. I believe they have the right to say what they want without me coming in and debating with them.

106. Evan Marc Katz 106

     The problem, Lisa, is the back and forth BLAMING. You and m are correct in many of your observations about men. The guys who complain about women? ALSO correct! Where does this back and forth/he said/she said get us?

     Nowhere. So let’s stick to the facts. Men wrong women. Women wrong men. And if we’re going to be more effective (that’s my big word) in dating, we have to step away from blaming and look to see what WE can adjust. If only because you can’t change all men. And men can’t change all women. Do we agree?

107. Lisa M. 107

     Evan, I absolutely agree.  Placing blame isn’t going to resolve our issues with one another, so it’s pointless.

108. starthrower68 108

     Actual message I just received:

     Hey sexy what are you up to? Let me guess just laying there wearing nothing but a smile, waiting for my call??? I’m actually moving there in July and looking for a long term relationship. And I am attractive but on my phone and can’t post/email pics, soon hopefully. Till then let me call and make you feel incredible… You deserve to be naughty right now. 

     Now Evan, I’m inclined to feel very uncomfortable by a message like this. Is this the sort of thing I should compromise on, or does this dude need to be ignored?  I mean, I’m not a prude, but I have a problem with someone thinking he is free to use such familiarity with me when I don’t know him from Adam.

109. Evan Marc Katz 109

     @starthrower – Let the perv go.

110. Margaret 110

     @ Ellen, #30
     I have also finally figured out that I want a committed relationship without marriage or living together.  Maybe now that we are both clearer on what we want, we will find it.

111. david 111

     @Helen #4
     I was really disappointed that no one has called out Helen on her BS about women being more “evolved” than men. Again, it is absolute nonsense.

     Women have evolved a lot in the last few decades, more quickly than a lot of men have, and the regular guys around us

112. anonymous 112

     Women compromise???? SINCE WHEN??????????????? Way too many women these days think there has to somehow be this “perfect” first date and then women want this first date and be like oh he’s the one to date and or marry. They want their men to not the least bit nervous, have flawless conversation, this 6′ tall minimum plus a million other things on their “laundry lists” and women wonder why men these days RUN from you????????? Women have to learn they MUST give men more then one chance unless like certain circumstances like obviously (both have nothing in common) (both have nothing to talk about and the conversation is like pulling teeth) that’s obvious!! But single women HAVE to QUIT being so damn judgmental and think dates are going to be all LA LA Hollywood, this magical something. Yes of course first dates are going to be cool, get to know each other etc but it’s NOT going to be this instantaneously POOF, all these magical fireworks go off and instantaneously the first date is this miraculous fantasy. Way too many women have wayyyyyy toooo high expectations and no wonder it comes back and bites them every time until they get into REALITY, GET REALISTIC, have REALISTIC EXPECTATIONS as in REALISTIC LISTS SUCH AS ( HE MIGHT (MIGHT) BE 6′ tall BUT HE MAY NOT BE 6′ tall he may be 5’9″, 5’10″ etc. etc…)

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