What’s Best Way to Express My Needs to My Boyfriend?

I’ve been LOVING your “Why He Disappeared” book. It’s given me affirmation in areas that I’m doing the right thing, but also made me realize where I’m projecting my own insecurities onto relationship by constantly requiring affirmation from men.

My question is “asking for needs.” I’ve currently been dating a guy for the last 9 months or so. He’s great. We started off as friends, which turned to friends with benefits, which is now turned into a committed relationship. It has moved VERY slow and I’ve been very cool about that. However, I can still go a few days or so without hearing from him at times and this drives me nuts and makes me feel insecure…but I still “play it cool.” To me it doesn’t make sense to be in a committed relationship and not communicate daily, but for him I think it’s normal. I also don’t want to take on the “masculine role” and be the one reaching out to him. I want to find a healthy way of letting him know how much his communication means to me, without sounding needy. Can you give some advice on how to ask for needs in a relationship?

Thank you SO much for the work you do. Your directness, confidence and clarity is extremely refreshing.

Caroline

As I said previously on the Love U Podcast, “You’re only as needy as your unmet needs” is a really affirming quote, because it implies that if you feel needy, your partner has been neglecting your needs. The question – for all of us – is whether our needs are reasonable or unreasonable.

All of us think our needs are reasonable. The issue, of course, is that needs are subjective. If my wife “needs” me to not coach women because she’s insecure or I “need” her to not go out with her girlfriends because I’m jealous, then a reasonable person may conclude we’re both confusing our wants with needs.

The “guy you’re seeing” wants to make himself happy; your happiness is secondary.

You, Caroline, are not.

It is perfectly reasonable to want to have daily communication but your letter indicates a few gaping blind spots that I have to call your attention to.

    1. It’s nine months and he’s not your “boyfriend,” but rather, “the guy you’re dating.” That’s a problem. You’re not being “cool.” You’re being weak. You’re so afraid to find out that this guy is NOT your boyfriend that you say nothing to keep the peace. And no “committed relationship” or “exclusive” is not boyfriend. It just means he’s not fucking anybody else, not that he’s contemplating a future with you.
    2. It’s easy to say that men are selfish and poor communicators, but you know what? You haven’t set any boundaries or expressed any needs. As a result, he hasn’t done anything wrong. He’s having the relationship he wants – low pressure, low stakes, no titles, and, most likely, no future. How do I know this? Well, because men who WANT a future usually stake their claim as boyfriend within weeks of dating you. This guy hasn’t in 9 months.
    3. Thus, when you say things are moving VERY slow, what you’re saying is that it’s not really moving at all. Which is why you’re writing to me today.

Here are your words:

To me it doesn’t make sense to be in a committed relationship and not communicate daily, but for him I think it’s normal. I also don’t want to take on the “masculine role” and be the one reaching out to him. I want to find a healthy way of letting him know how much his communication means to me, without sounding needy. Can you give some advice on how to ask for needs in a relationship?

Here is your solution:

    a. You have a direct conversation clarifying that he’s your boyfriend and has the desire to contemplate a future. You shouldn’t have to ask this question, but it’s begging to be asked. If he hedges or acts weird, guess what? He doesn’t want to be your boyfriend and I just saved you nine more months of these shenanigans.
    b. Presuming he’s your boyfriend and wants to consider a future, express your needs: “You’re an amazing boyfriend, but when you go a few days without reaching out to me, it doesn’t feel good. It would make me really happy if you could just call me at the end of the day to say good night, even if you have nothing to say. Could you do that for me?” The right man will say yes. The wrong man will find every excuse not to do this.

My guess is that you’re very afraid to have the first conversation, rendering the second conversation irrelevant.

If you’re not getting your reasonable needs met, there’s no relationship worth preserving.

Simply put: your boyfriend wants to make you happy.

The “guy you’re seeing” wants to make himself happy; your happiness is secondary.

Find out which man you’ve got on your hands, and please, don’t mistake being “cool” for being a doormat. If you’re not getting your reasonable needs met, there’s no relationship worth preserving.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Malika

    Maybe it’s just her wording of choice. Some people say commited relationship and dating as if they are the same thing, even though for me the former is way different than the latter.

    If it’s a commited relationship whereby they are actually boyfriend and girlfriend, a good talk will clarify any misconceptions about this subject. I often go for a few days without contacting any friends and family, i just don’t add much value to intermittent texts and would rather be on the phone or in a real life meeting in order to catch up. But if it was seen as very important i would definitely up the frequency of contact. The same goes for a SO who would want to hear from me daily. If it makes him happy…

    If that is not the case and you are still ‘dating’ at the nine month mark, it’s time to skeddadle. You’re in the infamous Ms. Right Now position, and no way is he going to anything above the crumb feeding level in order to keep you around. It is very telling that you feel reluctant to broach a relatively innocuous subject such as a bit more contact. Initiating a catch up or stating your needs is not ‘masculine’. It’s knowing what you reasonably want. After the initial dating phase i see nothing wrong in setting out what would make you happy. Is your reluctance maybe a sign that you don’t feel as comfortable as you should within the relationship?

    1. 1.1
      Adrian

      Hi Malika,

      You said, ” Some people say commited relationship and dating as if they are the same thing, even though for me the former is way different than the latter” 

      and Evan said ” no “committed relationship” or “exclusive” is not boyfriend.”

      This confuses me. If someone commits to you I thought that made them your boyfriend/girlfriend?

      If a guy is dating a girl I thought that meant he is courting her and if he is exclusively dating her I thought that meant he was her boyfriend?

      …   …   …

      If you have been with a person for 9 months why would not hearing from them daily make you feel insecure?

      Insecure about what and how?

      1. 1.1.1
        Stacia

        Adrian–I think that reducing contact is the first sign of the “slow fade” that people pull when they’re losing interest.  That’s assuming that you’re in contact daily, though.  Personally, it would make me feel like a guy was laying the foundation to break up, which would make me a little insecure.  I want to be with someone who wants to be with me, and that includes sharing and hearing about the details of everyday life, which is pretty much what relationships boil down to–sharing your everyday life with that person.  I don’t need marathon conversations every day, but to not be in contact?  I would feel like the guy didn’t really care about me.

        I am curious as to whether Caroline is just going a few days without hearing from him, or if she’s actually leaving voicemails or texting and he’s not responding.  The former might be a sign that he’s just not big on idle chatting, and perhaps he prefers face-to-face.  The latter is just rude, IMO.  Either way, she has nothing to lose by having the conversation Evan suggested.  You either get a boyfriend in this guy, or you get to go find a new one.  Why stay in limbo?

        1. Adrian

          Hi Stacia,

          Thank you for the he could be setting up the foundation to disappear explanation. I never considered it from that point of view.

      2. 1.1.2
        Malika

        I assume that commitment IS boyfriend/girlfriend. I have done the friends with benefits that has all the facets of a committed relationship and never again. As i have said before you become the sexy on standby/free therapist/+1 to work functions, which was fine in my twenties but would just make me feel like an unpaid escort girl in this time of my life.

        I have had perfectly secure relationships whereby we did not talk literally every day, but as i felt good in them, the fact that he was off for the evening or weekend with the lads elicited no more from me than ‘enjoy!’.

        So for me the worrying aspect is not that they don’t communicate every day but that she feels at the nine month mark that she needs to play it cool, when hearing from someone every day is a perfectly reasonable need. It’s her feeling that she can’t communicate with him that should make her wonder whether thi is the relationship she is going to be happy in.

  2. 2
    ScottH

    Sounds like an Anxious-Avoidant relationship to me and Caroline is the anxious one.

  3. 3
    Clare

    Evan is absolutely spot on here.

     

    I had the exact same impression when I read this letter. I can understand daily contact not being the norm in the first few weeks or maybe month or two of dating. But after that? Hmm.

     

    There are a few things here when you add them all together tell more of the real picture. I mean, I’ve known of guys who loved the girls they were with but moved slowly and didn’t go around calling themselves girlfriend and boyfriend. I’ve also known of couples who were deeply committed (married or living together) where the guy wasn’t always so great with communication. I’ve also known of friends with benefits who turned into something more serious.

     

    When you take these things all together, however, to me, what emerges is two people who are actually probably used to being single, independent, and maybe a little selfish with their time. That is normal when you’ve gone for a while without being in a relationship. However, by wanting to communicate daily, she wants to get closer, and I get the feeling he doesn’t. Let’s face it, when we feel safe and loved with someone, we don’t spend hours agonizing over how to say something or bring something up. It’s when we feel afraid of scaring them off that we do this. Even if she is a little anxious and needy (and I don’t get the feeling that she is, given all her references to playing it cool), there’s still no reason a guy would head for the hills just because you had a conversation with him about communicating daily unless he was planning to do that anyway. It’s not in itself an offensive or disrespectful thing to ask or talk about.

     

    If this is a non-negotiable for her, she literally has nothing to lose by bringing it up. However, my experience has been that (usually) if a guy you are in a relationship with is not communicating daily, there is a reason. In my experience and the experience of my friends (yes Bob, I just used anecdotal evidence), men who want to be with you do not need to be told to communicate daily. They want to do it. They want to talk to you and hear your voice as much as you do.

     

    Evan’s right. Express your needs in direct and simple (and caring) terms. The good news is that if he’s not the right man for you, he will usually pick up very quickly that this is his exit cue 🙂

  4. 4
    Jennifer G

    I can relate to this article but in a slightly different way. I have been dating a recently divorced dad with two kids for the last 1.5 years. It’s been the most challenging relationship because of the bitter ex wife and the kids adjustment to daddy dating someone (moreso the daughter than the son). The kids actually like me and I like them. The dad has used me as a therapist at times complaining about his ex wife (early on in the relationship was BAD, as a custody battle ensued and is still ongoing) and because  she has borderline personality disorder she is always stirring up something. This guy is a great guy – communicates well, is thoughtful, kind, funny, great physical chemistry…if he didn’t have the past he has, he’s a total catch. There were times I used to resent his past – it’s hard to be younger with no kids and adjust to his pre-set life. It caused a few breakups on my part being unable to deal and feeling overwhelmed. The most recent break up I voiced that he doesn’t have enough time for me and him to grow our bond. Our relationship feels so routine and lacks passion – even when the sex is great! It consists of a lot of small talk about our days and separate lives as I live about 30 min away from him – I’m in the city, he’s in the suburbs. He said he would work on making more time for ‘us’ but his lifestyle really can’t be changed – and I want his kids to come first. He’s a class act dad – he may spoil his kids at times and not discipline them the  best – but he really loves them well. So it’s pretty much a matter of A) can my needs be met in this relationship and B) can I really see myself as a future step mom. The great thing is he’s not wasting his time with me – has always done everything you say a relationship oriented man will do: lock you down as his girlfriend, call you often, talk about the future. So although I’m taking things slower with him now so I don’t get ahead of myself, I can’t help but think it’s just a matter of time before I break up with him again – because it’s happened about three times now. I hope you can give more advice for childless singles dating those with kids. Most of the advice online is polarized – either the childless person is being too selfish and needs to walk away OR they just need to suck it up and accept that they will always come second. Thanks Evan! You have been such a great resource for me and my love life <3!!

    1. 4.1
      KK

      Jennifer,

      The reason the online advice you’ve read is so polarized is because at the end of the day, that’s what it comes down to. I don’t agree that it makes you selfish to have the concerns you have.

      Do you want children of your own someday? If so, how important is it to you to have your own little family without any outside interference? If you have a family with this man, you will be sharing him with his children and dealing with whatever his ex dishes out for the duration. It isn’t selfish to want to marry someone without the baggage he has. After all, you don’t come with all that baggage. I’d be willing to bet that’s one of the things he likes about you. At the very least, I’m betting he sees it as a bonus. I wouldn’t get tied down to this guy for those reasons alone. Add to that, you’ve already broken up several times. These situations don’t improve after marriage, they get worse. Go find someone who can offer you something this guy can’t.

    2. 4.2
      Yet Another Guy

      @Jennifer G

      I was thirty-seven years old when I married, and I chose my ex for the very reasons you have outlined.  By that age, most of the women I encountered had already been married and had children.  As selfish as it may seem, I felt like I was getting another man’s castoff.  He got to enjoy her while her body was still pristine. There was also the problem of fitting into a ready-made family.  Plus, a lot of the women I met did not want to have more children.  I respected their desire to be done with changing diapers, but it always felt like I was going to be tasked with the job of raising another man’s children without any hope of having my own. I made the conscious choice to remain single for the rest of my life if I could not find a woman who had never been married and did not have children.

      Regardless of how much of catch you believe this man to be, you are always going to come second.   You need to face that reality and stop wasting time with this guy.  If you manage to get him to marry you and have children, your children will only be proper subset of his children, and that is not the same bond that two people who do not have children have after marrying and giving birth.

      Finally, I have major a problem with men who draw from the well more than one time (i.e., marry two or more childless women and start a family with each woman).  A man should get one shot at family.  After which, if he remarries, he has to marry a woman who already has children or cannot bear children.  There should be no do-overs.  Every time a man redraws from the well, he takes away a childless man’s opportunity to have a family with a woman who does not have children.

      1. 4.2.1
        KK

        YAG,

        In the past, you’ve mentioned your ex multiple times. From memory, I believe you stated that when you and your ex started dating, you weren’t physically attracted to her. While I have a hard time understanding why anyone would choose to pursue a relationship and ultimately marry and start a family with someone they’re not attracted to (especially when that lack of attraction caused you to be unhappy and ultimately divorce), I’m just curious if you can see how you really screwed up your ex-wife’s opportunity to marry someone who would have been happy with her and vice versa? Does that bother you at all?

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @KK

          It was not like I found my ex unattractive, nor did I have to convince her to marry me (she had me on a timeline).  It is that chemistry was more like a 4 or a 5 at best.  There were other attributes that I thought were more important when selecting a wife because chemistry fades.  We share a common extraction that played a large part in our lives.   We are both the same religion.  She was my intellectual equal, which was huge for me because my ex was the first women I dated who I considered to be my intellectual equal.  Trust me, that is not an easy task.  Most women bore me to tears because I am an INTP.  As roommates and financial partners, we were fine.  I am convinced that it was our shared value system that held us together in spite of a lack of strong chemistry.  Few marriages can withstand the length of time that we did without intimate contact without one of the partners looking outside of the marriage.  Ultimately it was the mutual lack of desire that did us in as a couple.  There is just no hiding from that reality.

          In the end, I probably would not have married had I not met my ex.  I was prepared to remain single for the rest of my life at that point in time (my family had given up).  For all of the downsides, we had a good run.  A couple of friends married and divorced during the time that we were together (a few more than one time).  Plus, we produced beautiful, incredibly smart girls who astound me with their depth and breadth.  They are way ahead of where I was at their age.

        2. KK

          Thanks for responding, YAG. I understand much better now that you’ve gone into more detail.

        3. GoWiththeFlow

          DeeGee,

          “And just as a woman can rule out certain men by their height, income, and other metrics, so should a man be able to rule out certain women by metrics such as whether she has had children, without other women then calling him names or thinking his choices are unwarranted.”

          Oh my. . . have you read the comments here where men routinely, as you say, call women names and say their choices are unwarranted?

      2. 4.2.2
        Clare

        YAG,

         

        “A man should get one shot at family.  After which, if he remarries, he has to marry a woman who already has children or cannot bear children.  There should be no do-overs.”

         

        Where is the woman’s choice in all this? If she is a single woman with no children who wants to date a divorced dad, is she to be told, “No, sorry, YAG’s law has decreed that you cannot be together, and must find another man who has never had children, even though you might love this man.”

         

        It amazes me where grown people on this blog get off thinking they have the right to tell someone who they are allowed to be with.

        1. DeeGee

          “I decree… that henceforth and from this day forward… this shall be known as YAG’s Law!” (in my best Patrick Stewart impression).  😉

          Clare said: “Where is the woman’s choice in all this?

          Anyone can do as they choose, if both parties agree.
          What I get from YAG’s comment is that there are caveats that people should take note of when they are single and choose to have a relationship with a ready-made-family.  And I do tend to agree with the points brought up.  And I see how they can be applied to either gender.
          And just as a woman can rule out certain men by their height, income, and other metrics, so should a man be able to rule out certain women by metrics such as whether she has had children, without other women then calling him names or thinking his choices are unwarranted.
          Unfortunately, at my age, pretty much every woman has had children.

        2. Tom10

          @ Clare #4.2.2
           
          “Where is the woman’s choice in all this?”
           
          In reply to Yag #4.2
           
          “Finally, I have major a problem with men who draw from the well more than one time (i.e., marry two or more childless women and start a family with each woman).  A man should get one shot at family.  After which, if he remarries, he has to marry a woman who already has children or cannot bear children.  There should be no do-overs.  Every time a man redraws from the well, he takes away a childless man’s opportunity to have a family with a woman who does not have children.”
           
          Yeah I agree Clare, this is nonsense.
           
          A man having a second family isn’t taking “away a childless man’s opportunity to have a family with a woman who does not have children” rofl!
           
          There are millions, tens of millions even, of women out there eager to meet a childless man and start a family; if a single man really wants a family but can’t find one of those suitable then he’s got issues.
           
          Every individual is entitled to begin one, or two, or three families if they so wish; it’s no-one’s business but theirs.
           
          Also, as you point out, it’s a woman’s prerogative if she prefers to start a family with a man who already has one over a childless man. Women in these situations obviously feel that the pros of selecting a man with a track-record of being a family-man outweigh his cons, as well as the cons of the issues pertaining to a single childless man who wants to start a family but can’t find a woman to have one with.

        3. Yet Another Guy

          @Clare

          It is my opinion, nothing more; however, it is interesting to see how many men and women agree with me when I broach the subject.  I used live on one of the most affluent roads in my area.  There were building restrictions that limited subdivisions to  properties of three acres or more; therefore, all new communities were estate communities.  There were men in my community and the surrounding communities who were on their second, third, or fourth family with wives who were often ten years younger than their oldest children.   Every time these guys redraw from the well, they take away a childless man’s opportunity to have a family with a childless woman. The woman in this case is little more than than the latest accessory to one of these men. Not every childless man wants to marry what he perceives as a another man’s cast off.  Yes, it is harsh way to see things, but it is what many childless men say behind closed doors.  When it comes to dating and mating, men are primal, the more alpha, the more primal.

        4. Clare

          DeeGee,

           

          Haha! 😀 YAG really does beg to be teased with this comment.

           

          I’m all for providing guidelines and opinions… it was YAG’s use of the words “should” and “has to” which got my goat. Ahem… excuse me?! How kindly would he (or anyone else) take to being told whom they and have to couple up with?

           

          And while I note what you have said about men and women being able to rule each other out and not get called names for it (an entirely valid point which I will not argue with) it hasn’t got any bearing on what I said 😉

        5. Clare

          Tom,

           

          As you say.

           

          I am a childless woman still of child-bearing age, and if I wanted to start a family, I’d have no objection (I might even prefer it) to having children with a devoted and loving single dad. He might even be able to show me the ropes! 🙂

        6. Yet Another Guy

          @Tom10

          There are millions, tens of millions even, of women out there eager to meet a childless man and start a family; if a single man really wants a family but can’t find one of those suitable then he’s got issues.

          First off, I believe that that is a bit of an exaggeration and oversimplification.  If there is a surplus of women who are not single mothers where a man lives (e.g., New York City), then I concur with your assessment; otherwise, a man needs to marry sooner than later.   In my case, available women nearer my age who were not divorced single moms were next to non-existent by the time I reached age twenty-eight (by age thirty-two, available women who were not single mothers were non-existent).   The average age at which a woman married in my cohort was twenty-two.  I had to go seven years younger to find a woman who was not a divorced single mother.

          What I do not understand is that a large percentage of divorced single fathers and many divorced single mothers of child bearing age only want to date someone who has never been married and does not have children.  Their rationale is that they want someone who has time for them when they have time.  In essence, these divorced men and women want to be someone’s first priority when they themselves are in no position to do the same.  Why would a single person who has never been married and does not have children sign up for that deal?   These types of relationships rarely stand the test of time because the divorce rate for second marriages is higher than first marriages.

        7. Clare

          YAG,

           

          I’m not going to deny your experience. And you are certainly a better judge of what men are like than me.

           

          My issue was with your (in my opinion totally futile and unfounded) attempt to tell other people whom they should marry and start a family with. I myself wouldn’t start a family with three or four different people, but I would never try and deny other people’s right to couple up with whomever they chose.

        8. Tom10

          @ Yet Another Guy
           
          You wrote:
          “First off, I believe that that is a bit of an exaggeration and oversimplification”
           
          In response to my comment:
           
          “There are millions, tens of millions even, of women out there eager to meet a childless man and start a family”
           
          So how many childless women of child-bearing age are out there who want to start a family?
           
          “Nearly half of women between the ages of 15 and 44 did not have kids in 2014, up from 46.5% in 2012 to 47.6% in 2014, according to new data from the U.S. Census Bureau’s Current Population Survey”
           

           
          Number of women in U.S. between 18 and 44 in 2010: 52,237,344
           

           
          Therefore, number of women in U.S. between 18 and 44 who’ve never had children: approximately 24 million. And that doesn’t consider women from the rest of the world.
           
          Now, admittedly, one can’t realistically consider women the across the entire country (or world) when looking for a partner and we don’t know what percentage of those women actually want a family.
           
          However, it still qualifies as “tens of millions” in my book.
           
          So the point still stands: there are millions of single, childless women out there for the childless men who want to start a family.
           
          So if a single childless man can’t find a woman to have a family with he can’t really blame the men who are having their second family; he has to examine his own flaws which are preventing him from attaining his goals.
           
          “In my case, available women nearer my age who were not divorced single moms were next to non-existent by the time I reached age twenty-eight (by age thirty-two, available women who were not single mothers were non-existent). “
           
          The age of first time marriage has increased from when you got married to today:
           
          “The median age for a woman’s first marriage was 26.1 years in 2010, up from 23.9 in 1990.”
           

           
          Also, admittedly, I live in a country where the average age of first time marriage is a bit older than the US (32.4 here versus 28 in the US).
           
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_age_at_first_marriage.
           
          And the average age of first time marriage is older again in the particular city I live in, therefore, the majority of women my age didn’t begin to get married until they hit their 30s, so our experiences are evidently very different in this regard.
           
          “What I do not understand is that a large percentage of divorced single fathers and many divorced single mothers of child bearing age only want to date someone who has never been married and does not have children.”
           
          I suppose they’re just being a bit greedy, and if they can, why not?
           
          “Why would a single person who has never been married and does not have children sign up for that deal?”
           
          I don’t get it either, but I can only surmise that they reckon their odds of having a stable family are better with a man with a track-record of children and commitment versus a single man who might be a playa/commitment-phobe/financial disaster etc.

          Each to their own eh?

        9. SparklingEmerald

          DeeGee said “And just as a woman can rule out certain men by their height, income, and other metrics, so should a man be able to rule out certain women by metrics such as whether she has had children, without other women then calling him names or thinking his choices are unwarranted.”

          Hi DG, YAG was stating that men should NOT start 2nd families with childless women, when they have already have another, because they are denying another man a chance to start a family from starting from scratch.  He was saying that this choice is UNWARRANTED.  He was arguing that a man should be able to rule out women who have children, he was arguing that a man is WRONG to pick a childless woman to have children with when he has already had a family with someone else.

          I think men and women should be able to marry and mate with whom they choose, and if a man and woman falls in love, and wants to start a second family, if they can support all of the children (emotionally and financially) then they should go for it.

          I wonder if he thinks a woman should not have a “2nd family” with a man who has never been married or had children.  By doing that, isn’t the woman denying a childless woman a chance to start her family with a man with no kids ?

          Just a rhetorical question, I think either scenario is “allowable”

        10. Yet Another Guy

          @SparklingEmerald

          I wonder if he thinks a woman should not have a “2nd family” with a man who has never been married or had children.  By doing that, isn’t the woman denying a childless woman a chance to start her family with a man with no kids ?

          That happens far less often than vice versa.  I only know of one case where a childless man married a single mother, and the marriage was “till death do us part.”  My bisnonni (great-grandparents) immigrated to the United States from Italy near the end of the 19th century.  My bisnonno (great-grandfather) passed away from gallstones in his late twenties leaving my bisnonna (great-grandmother) with several mouths to feed.  My bisnonna married another Italian immigrant who was childless and started a second family. She gave birth to a total of thirteen children and outlived both men.  In fact, my bisnonna lived to be over 100 years old.  She was able to find another husband because Italian men outnumbered Italian women, and Italians did not marry outside of their ethnicity.

        11. SparklingEmerald

          Somewhere in this thread DG said . . .

          To settle for any guy who comes along?  Of course not!  But because I am a man and I am saying that I prefer to have women who are in at least as good shape as me who have health and fitness as part of their daily routine, then I am a jerk, right?

          No of course not.  You aren’t a jerk for wanting to be attracted to a mate.   We all are entitled to our preferences.  I think the point was that you ask out women you aren’t attracted to, then complain when they aren’t into you either.

          I don’t think it’s really “complaining” but just more disappointment to go on another dead end date.  I went on dates with guys I was “meh” about, hoping that and perhaps in person they would seem more interesting than the online/phone preliminaries.  Sometimes we would meet, and the”meh” feeling was mutual.  That would leave me disappointed, not because the guy “rejected me” because in actuality, neither one of us were feeling it.  It was just disappointing to go down another dead end road.

          REAL disappointment was if I was in fact excited to meet the guy, and he wowed me in person, and I could see in his face and mannerism that he considered me “meh”.  Only one man was very rude about it, most tried to grin and bear and be polite.  Really awkward.  When I would wonder to myself why he even bothered to ask me out (I post accurate, recent photos), I just remind myself that I have gone out with mediocore interest, hoping that the in person meet up would be better, and no it wasn’t.  So maybe that guy was “giving me a chance” and I proved to be as “meh” in person (to him) as I did in the pre-screen.  Anyway, it is momentary disappointment, not major heartbreak, except when those dead end dates happened over and over again, sometimes mutual rejection, sometimes me rejecting, sometimes him rejecting.

          DG, if you would go through the archives, you will find tons of accusation about women being “too picky”.

          I have been debated for not dating smokers.  I have been told that maybe I should concentrate on “character” when I said that big bushy “Duck Dynasty” beards are a real turn off.  Someone suggested women set that attraction bar as low as “not repulsed by” and there was a real pile on when I argued against that.

          I have stated countless times on this board that I am fine with blue collar, a little bit of pot belly, gray hair ,no hair, not looking for rich, all my LTR’s have been with men in the 5’6″ – 5’8″ and I was accused of holding out for a 6 foot, tall, rich rock star.

          So even women are told to just date any old guy who shows interest.  Apparently, I as a non-smoker am supposed to endure stinky smoker’s breath.  Apparently, even though really long, gray bristly beards gross me out, I am supposed to kiss that scratch beard, and smell everything that guy ate the past week.  Oh yeah, I was called a liar and told some version of “f— off” on this board when stating my height preference is not 6 foot.

          So DG, it does go both ways.  People are criticized for their romantic preferences.  No one should be.  We want what we want.

          And luckily for me, after 5 years of dead end dates, “almost” relationships, I got what I wanted, no settling required.

           

      3. 4.2.3
        AllHeart81

        Wow! Your life sounds very confined with rules about ridiculous things that sound more about what is self serving for yourself vs what is best for anyone’s individual life. I always think it’s strange when certain men feel literally entitled to women’s bodies and entire lives so much that she literally isn’t allowed to have any life experinces or life-lived prior to meeting the “perfection” that is himself. I think your entire perspective of women is problematic for any woman you eventually end up dating.

  5. 5
    Fleurdl123

    YAG, sometimes I wonder if your comments are serious.  Or maybe it’s your INTP approach to communication. You speak in terms of women’s pristine bodies or as men’s cast offs, and think that a man should get one shot at a family rather than ruining another man’s shot?  Maybe that would fly in some Logan’s Run-esque world.  I don’t mean to criticize, but I don’t get it.

    1. 5.1
      Yet Anothe Guy

      @Fleurdl123

      It may be a harsh reality, but men who in are in their thirties (and often forties) that have never been married and do not have children generally do not want to date divorced women who have children.  While women are harsher than men when it comes to sexual attraction, a man who has never been married does not find the body of the average divorced mother sexually attractive (I tried to look past it when I was that age).   More often than not, pregnancy creates permanent changes to a woman’s body.  A man who is the father of woman’s children looks past these cosmetic blemishes because they are the result of giving him a gift.   There is no such connection for the man who follows in his footsteps.  They are just scars from giving another man a gift, a constant reminder that a competitor beat him to the punch in the most primal sense.  A man wants his shot at having his own family.  He does not want to have to raise another man’s family as a consolation prize or as the price for having a child of his own.  While my hat goes off to men who can do it, it is not natural for a man to care for another man’s children.  I have several male friends who decided to remain single instead of accepting the reality that they would have to raise another man’s children.

      With that said, this topic brings up a major faux pas that women make on dating sites.  A man does not want to see photos of a woman with her children.  All that does is remind him that another man has already visited her home.  A man also does not want to see photos of a woman with her grandchildren.  All that does is remind him that she is old.  A man wants the focus to be on her.  We are talking about invoking what is a primal response; namely, the primal urge to pursue.

      1. 5.1.1
        DeeGee

        Yet Another Guy said: “a man who has never been married does not find the body of the average divorced mother sexually attractive

        While your comment and viewpoint may sound harsh, I have to completely agree with you.

        I am 55, married from 1987 to 1995 to a woman who had multiple issues, and we never had kids.  So here I am at this age, looking at most women my age who are in poor physical shape.
        I have had two medium-long-term relationships since my divorce, both of the women had kids, and, well, while it isn’t really their fault but the natural changes to a woman’s body from birth, let’s just say that many areas of their physical being definitely had impacts from having children.
        Over the past few years while dating, I have been able to find a couple of older women who did not have kids for various reasons, and they still had nice physiques, but there were other issues definitely showing as to why they were never married and didn’t have kids.
        I work out daily, Pilates, yoga, Tae Bo, and weight training, plus I have all of my hair etc., so I do look pretty good for 55.  And the vast majority of women my age simply have not taken care of themselves since giving birth.  I tended to message women who listed yoga on their dating profiles, so that I would at least get someone who was in half decent physical shape.  I also tend to message women between 50 and 60.

        1. KK

          Gosh DeeGee,

          I think I’m starting to understand your dilemma.

          Let’s see if I understand? You’ve been dating online for the past 5 years. The vast majority of these women have had children, which makes you physically unattracted to them. However, you’re inviting them out on dates and they’re turning you down for second or third dates. Wow, that must really suck.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @DeeGee

          I have to agree with KK on this one.  I believe that it is unrealistic to expect a woman to have a nice body at our age.   There is a huge difference between age 35 and age 55.

          With that said, I was astonished to recently learn that the average woman in the United States falls into the size 16 to size 18 range.  That’s basically plus-size.  The average woman in the United States is 5’4″.   A 5’4″ woman who wears a size 16 is pushing 200lbs (a 5’4″ women who wears a size 18 is at least 200lbs).   That is not a few extra pounds.  That is obese.

        3. KK

          “I have to agree with KK on this one.  I believe that it is unrealistic to expect a woman to have a nice body at our age.   There is a huge difference between age 35 and age 55”.

          YAG,

          I’m not sure what you’re in agreement with, but that’s not what I said. LOL

        4. KK

          “I have to agree with KK on this one.  I believe that it is unrealistic to expect a woman to have a nice body at our age.   There is a huge difference between age 35 and age 55”.

          I’m not sure how we’re in agreement, but that’s not what I said or implied. LOL

        5. DeeGee

          KK said: “However, you’re inviting them out on dates and they’re turning you down for second or third dates. Wow, that must really suck.

          Nice way to twist everything I said.

        6. Yet Another Guy

          @KK

          I’m not sure what you’re in agreement with, but that’s not what I said.

          I was in agreement with what you inferred about the apparent disconnect in DeeGee’s posting.  If man goes out with a woman and senses that she is not into him physically, he usually does not ask her out for a second date.  Why would a woman who can sense that a man is not into her physically want a second or third date?

        7. KK

          YAG,

          I’m glad you elaborated because that is not what I was inferring. It appears DeeGee is asking out women he doesn’t even find attractive, yet they are turning him down left and right. I think it’s quite a stretch to read anything else into that other than they weren’t into him for whatever reason.

        8. Sk

           

           

          Yag’s biggest mistake is that he thinks he has mapped out all women.  When he meets someone he doesn’t “get”, he doesn’t even see them.

        9. DeeGee

          KK said: ” It appears DeeGee is asking out women he doesn’t even find attractive

          I will agree that I have asked out women that I have had an attraction level of maybe a 3 or 4 to.  But I have given every effort to be a good date and to be kind and pleasing and open, to see if there is something there.
          Most of the woman that I have a higher attraction level to won’t even look at me because I don’t have the “6 sixes”, I’m not 6 feet tall, I don’t make $150k+, I don’t live in a $400k+ home, etc.
          On the dating sites here, women who take care of themselves are only about 10% of them, so they will of course have the choice of the top 10% of men.  The other 90%+ of women are lower in compatibility with me, they are in poor physical condition (and I mean strictly from a health stand point, not from a sexual stand point), they don’t exercise, they don’t eat well, they do not have any significant hobbies, our compatibility level is very low, etc.
          Why would I want to settle for someone who I am not compatible with and I have nothing in common with?  Would you tell a woman to do that?  To settle for any guy who comes along?  Of course not!  But because I am a man and I am saying that I prefer to have women who are in at least as good shape as me who have health and fitness as part of their daily routine, then I am a jerk, right?  Because you think I am judging fatties or something.

        10. GoWiththeFlow

          YAG & DeeGee,

          According to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services there are equal numbers of obese men and women, and more men than women are overweight.  Now you two may be normal body weight and fit, but the majority of men in the U.S. are either overweight or obese.  So why do you imply, by repeatedly moaning about how fat women as a group are, that women are doing a horribly mean thing to men by gaining weight when men in this society are just as fat as women are?

        11. KK

          DeeGee,

          I didn’t say you were a jerk. I just don’t have a solution for your dilemma. I don’t know much about OLD but I’m surprised to learn that only the top 10% of women are attractive and in shape and the other 90% are hideous. I guess I just assumed there was a wider range online.

        12. Yet Another Guy

          @Sk

          Yag’s biggest mistake is that he thinks he has mapped out all women.

          Not in the least!  However, I do believe that all women are at least a 4 on the crazy scale. 🙂

           

           

      2. 5.1.2
        Adrian

        Hi Yet Another Guy and DeeGee,

        I am curious to hear what changes you two speak of when it comes to the bodies of women who have had children and why their body is not attractive.

        I ask because I have heard many guys use the same reason as for why they would not date them but no one ever explains what about their bodies that is such a turn off (I have never dated a women with children so I lack that first hand knowledge).

        I, like both of you go to the gym daily and I have seen a plethora of women who are mothers of all ages that appear to have great bodies; actually most of them look to be in just as good or even better shape than many of the women without children their ages.

        Though this is all conjecture since of course they are wearing loose fitting clothing (only the young college girls wear the tight clothing) in the gym. At work the mothers who I know go to the gym regularly wear lots of loose fitting pantsuits, so again I am just assuming they are in great shape because they are slim.

        …   …   …

        Also if your ex’s remarried would you rather the step-father of your children see them and their mother as beautiful little angels or as another man’s castoff?

        Do you think a man who views innocent children as just YOUR cast-offs will treat them how you want your children to be treated?

        By-the-Way

        I ask this as a man who himself does not want to have children. I love children to death and I get my toddler niece and two baby cousins once a month for an entire week-just me alone taking care of 3 little angelic but very energetic girls/warrior princesses (^_^).

        So my reason for not wanting children is because I know how draining children can be and I only don’t want to date someone with children because I am afraid of getting attached to her child and then the relationship not working out, it’s NOT because I see children as another man’s gift or the mother as not being worthy of a great guy just because she no longer has the body of a virgin.

        However…

        You both are older, wiser, and have more dating and sexual experience than me so I would like to hear your points about a woman with children’s body not being attractive… Just PLEASE be nice since a lot of women with children read and comment on this blog. I want to learn not belittle because I am not superior or better than anyone and I think we can talk without making others feel attacked or hurt.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @Adrain

          Do you really want us to put signs on our backs that read “Kick Me?”  🙂

           

        2. SparklingEmerald

          Hi Adrian – Very sweet of you to ask the guys to “be nice”, but perhaps if a mother  (me) posts an article here, that will be less likely to read as nasty.

           

          http://www.self.com/story/9-ways-pregnancy-can-permanently-change-your-body

           

          I was VERY lucky in the post partum department.  My belly got HUGE, but I did not have stretch marks.  I  nursed my son for nine months, but my boobs bascially went back to the way they were pre-pregnancy.  ( I was hoping they would stay bigger after I weaned my son, but they went straight back to being normal) 🙁

          I went from a size 7 and half shoe to a size 8 and half shoe and that change was permanent.  After I was done nursing, I remained a steady 10 pounds over my pre-pregnancy wieght and never did lose it, despite exercise and good diet.  Also, my hips are permanently a bit wider due to changes in the pelvic structure.

          However, woman whose children are grown, most of her bodily changes are due to age and menopause.

          Most of these things are things a woman can’t control and do not affect her ability to be a good partner, but we are judged for our bodies changing due to child birth and menopause, because “men are visual”.  This will never change.  Sad bud true.  Physical attraction will always be a factor in the mating game.  With men, height is sadly an issue for the very short (I don’t think men who are 5’8″ and above can really lay all of their problems on their height) For women, it is everything else, wieght, body shape, hip to waist ratio, size and shape of boobs and butts, facial attractiveness.  A woman could have a healthy weight, but if her legs are proportionately shorter, her butt is flat, boobs are small etc., or her face is in the “plain Jane” category, her dating pool is smaller based on who wants to date her.  I’m not saying this out of anger, it is just true, the better looking (face and body) someone is, the more people they will have to choose from.  Other factors of course weight in, but physical attractiveness is primary.

          My body, although changed after pregnancy, was still fairly nice, still is, although my hour glass figure is now more like a “45 minute glass”.

          I take NO credit for my post-partum bodily recovery.  I hit the genetic lottery on that one.  My mother had 3 kids, no stretch marks, and never got past 130 pounds post-partum.  Good smooth skin runs in my family.

          Men’s body changes with age too, and although I need to be sexually attracted to a man, as I got older, I had no trouble becoming attracted to men with gray hair, bald men, a bit of a pot belly, etc.  I never expected to date Adonis when I became involuntarily single in my 50’s.   I find many men in my age range to still be fairly attractive and I find many that have really gone downhill.  Though the thinking still persists that “Men age like wine, women like milk”, that has not been my observation.

          My husband and I are still in fairly good shape for OUR AGES, but neither of us can compare to our 21 year old counterparts.

          If a man is dating a woman in her 50’s who has had kids, chances are most of the “changes” are due to normal aging as well as children.

           

           

        3. KK

          Adrian,

          All women are different. As SE mentioned, pregnancy causes some women to get stretch marks all over their bodies. Breasts, stomach, hips, even thighs… Some women never have stretch marks and some women just get a few around their abdomen or hips.

          Breasts are typically a little less perky after pregnancy. Most women’s breasts get larger when they’re pregnant, then go back to their normal size.

          Both issues are caused by weight gain. A normal amount of weight gain is essential to a healthy pregnancy. However, some women gain much more than necessary and if they lose the weight, they’ll not only have the above issues but saggy skin as well.

          I had a c-section so I have a small scar near my bikini area. I’ve heard women complain about other issues regarding vaginal birth, but I have no clue how common or accurate those things are.

          A friend of mine; a former fitness model, was very careful to only gain the necessary weight to maintain a healthy pregnancy. She was able to lose all of her baby weight fairly quickly but had a small pooch of saggy skin near her lower abdomen. She chose to get a tummy tuck.

          In my opinion, Adrian, this is what it comes down to… Some men love, appreciate, and respect women. Some men don’t. Some men think the feminine form is beautiful. Some men can only see beauty in the feminine form if it’s a 20 year old porn star. Men who love the feminine form and also love, appreciate, and respect women are not going to care if a woman has a 2 inch scar in her bikini area or if she has a few stretch marks that are hardly visible anymore.

        4. DeeGee

          Adrian said: “I am curious to hear what changes you two speak of when it comes to the bodies of women who have had children and why their body is not attractive.”

          There are a few changes that I will talk about here, YAG’s opinion may differ from mine.  Warning, there is some adult content in my comment.

          The majority of women who have had children allow themselves to get up to obese or larger (morbid obesity), from which they never return.  And most will viciously fight you all of the way on this one if it is mentioned.  I will address that first, and more in a moment…

          As many of the readers probably already know, I am 55, I was on multiple dating sites for 5 years, I do my searches within a 7 city/town radius that is within an hour’s driving time of where I live, which has a total population of about 250,000 people, so about 125,000 women, and I have usually searched from the age range of 45 to 65.
          At least 95% to 98% of the women that it returns in all of those parameters are obese, and usually to the heavy end of obese.  And many women who list themselves on their profiles as “average” or “athletic” are nowhere near that size.  If you have rolls, you are not athletic.

          Now I don’t wish to sound judgmental, I am fit for 55, I work out daily and eat very healthy (close to a paleo vegetarian diet), so fit is a mate preference for me.
          I have been in relationships, including my marriage, where the woman let herself go after “catching me” even to the point of getting to large obese, and it was a complete nightmare to try to live with them and their eating habits, and their constant complaining and shaming of me when I do my dieting and exercise (I understand the psychology of why they do this).  So for me personally it is a huge red flag.

          So if women can exclude men from their dating group by his looks, height, weight, hair (or not), muscles, etc., then I have the equal right not to date obese women (even though yes, I have done so many times, but it is not my preference).

          And now for some frank adult talk, kids please avert your eyes.
          I have also been in multiple medium-long-term relationships with women who have had kids.  Note that I do not have kids.
          Giving birth has a large number of physical impacts on a woman’s body.  Including typically being overweight to obese to worse, stretch marks, massive C-section scars, breasts that point to her toes, and yes I will be very open, a belly pouch that is very noticeable especially if she is on top even if she is thin, and especially also vaginal issues.
          I dated one woman who had a very large vagina because she wasn’t stitched and didn’t heal closed from the episiotomy from all three children she bore.  It was a real issue with intercourse in the relationship.  She was extremely self-conscious about it and always apologetic.  We did have a lot of sex but it was not very satisfying for me (or her), and I am statistically a large man in that area.  Google “Vaginoplasty“.

          Any guy with any experience who has looked at nude photos of women can usually easily tell which ones have had children.

          However, at my age, I really have no choice in the matter any more.  Beggars can’t be choosers.  There is a limited dating pool at my age.  I try to go for women who at least are into yoga, but that is less than 1% of them on dating sites.

          SparklingEmerald said: “… because “men are visual”.  This will never change.  Sad bud true.

          No offense, it goes equally both ways.  Women are just as visual as men.  A woman sizes up every man she meets and puts him into the date / no-date categories.  And men are judged for multiple physical attributes, including height, weight, muscular physique, hair (or not), hair color, clothes, shoes, smell, and more.

        5. DeeGee

          Please also note that there are also other issues that are not physical in your mate that you will probably encounter when dating someone who has kids from a previous relationship.

          After my divorce, in my 30’s and 40’s, I did date women who had children from previous relationships.  And a few issues are inevitable, and may be deal breakers depending on what a person is looking for.  I speak about this from my own personal experience.  Note that I no longer really worry about this now that I am in my mid 50’s, since the majority of women my age who have children, they are now over 18.

          These include:
          – You will always come second after her/his children.  Always.
          – Be prepared for the children to act up and if you try to speak to them, have them tell you “you can’t tell me what to do, you are not my real father/mother”.
          – Be prepared to be shit tested all of the time by the other parent and her/his children.
          – There can also be legal implications, for example if you live with the parent for a while and then break up, you may be legally responsible for child support, and they are not even your kids.
          – etc.

        6. Randall P Stevens

          I don’t know about all that; my ex wife is 44 and is built like a cheetah.  She wears tight everything; granted she goes to the gym for 2 hours a day but she looks better than most 30 year olds.

          It’s really a question of how much you want it up to about 50-55…at that point saggy skin starts kicking in and there’s only so much you can do.  Most people don’t want it that badly at that point, so they place a higher priority on having some free time, versus devoting 2 hours a day to exercise.

        7. SparklingEmerald

          DG said that it “works both ways” and of COURSE I know that, which is why I also said “it is just true, the better looking (face and body) someone is, the more people they will have to choose from.  Other factors of course weight in, but physical attractiveness is primary.” in gender neutral terms.

          I was specifically answering a question about WOMEN’S looks, and it gets exhausting to have to CONSTANTLY do a tit for tat with “Of course the other gender does that too”.

          Looks and other physical attributes (voice, smell, feel) are primary to sexual attraction.  We all can (and do) lament it, but it is a fact of life.  The majority of men don’t fine me attractive enough to have a relationship with, I don’t find the majority of men attractive enough either.  But I do find ENOUGH men, and ENOUGH men find me attractive enough to make it work.

          I don’t need to have every man consider me a beauty queen.  It is enough that my one and only man finds me beautiful.  And it is enough that I find my 70 year old husband handsome, sexy and attractive, regardless of how others view him.

          I do believe women’s looks are scrutinized FAR more than men’s.  Not just in the dating arena, but life in general.

          The media rarely reports on a woman, without discussing her outfit, her smile, her hairstyle, her age, her weight, etc.  She could be curing cancer, running for president, or committing mass murder, and the press would comment on her fashion choices and hairstyle.  Hillary Clinton was criticized for not smiling enough during the debate by the media.  Her scowling opponent Trump, while has been made fun of for his appearance by the general commenters in the blogosphere, faced no such criticism for his scowl as far as I know.

          Trump even thought it was appropriate to critique the looks of his republican opponents in the primaries.  He was still in beauty pageant mode, and seemed to not understand that these women were running for office, NOT Miss America.

           

        8. GoWiththeFlow

          Adrian,

          I think both SE and KK did a good job explaining the changes that happen from pregnancy to a woman’s body.  I want to add two things.

          1) I believe MOST men have reasonable expectations about what women’s bodies can and should look like at different stages in life as we age.  I believe that these men are attracted to a certain range of women’s bodies that includes being attracted to women who do have flaws like stretch marks, less than flat bellies, small breasts, large noses, etc.  Just like most men take it in stride that they themselves no longer have the 32″ waists, or the full head of hair of their youth.

          2)  The above being said, there are men out there who are obsessed with their negative views of the physical changes life and aging brings to a woman’s body.  These men also tend to deny the effects aging has on their own bodies, or they ignore it completely (Look at all the exercise I do!  I’m so in shape!).  As SE said, the best current example we have of this is Donald Trump.  It’s a pure example of irony (and hypocrisy) that Trump, a 70 year old clinically obese man with wrinkles, jowls, and a turkey neck, points to Carly Fiorina (in a venue where looks should not matter) and derisively says “I mean, just look at her!” as if she was some hideous creature.  To give a personal example, more than once I have been in a social situation where I have heard an overweight or obese man talking judgmentally about fat women.  There’s a disconnect within these men.

          The typical man can WOW! all over a picture of Gigi Hadid in a swimsuit and still find his 43 year old wife attractive.  The second type of man cannot.  And he wants to talk about it.  A lot!

          I bring this up because these men take up a lot of space in the media with their views (It  goes back to that obsession thing–they literally cannot shut up about it) and it will affect the women around you.  Your wife or girlfriend may read, hear, or see negative opinions–like the Donald/Carly interaction–and that night she may want the light out when the two of you are in bed.  Not everyone can have rock solid confidence all the time.  The world affects us.  It’s not anything that you can fix.  Just be aware of it and forgive us our occasional body insecurities, and we will do the same for you.

          YAG,

          “Do you really want us to put signs on our backs that read “Kick Me?”

          You already do.

      3. 5.1.3
        Stacy

        Thing is, MOST men in their late 30s and up have at least 1 child so the argument is mute.  Most men that I meet in that age group prefer a woman to have had at least one child.

        Personally, I would not date a childless man (although I get hit on a lot by the 32 and under crowd that don’t have kids yet).

        Also, the difference between what people ideally want and what they can get (or end up with) tend to be miles apart.

        1. Stacy

          Oh, and by the way, my waist is 26 inches even after 2 kids and my boobs did not change at all…I look wayyyy better after kids than before.

           

           

    2. 5.2
      Stephanie

      Fleurdl123: I’m a middle-aged, INTP software engineer like YAG and can’t think of a way to interpret his words that doesn’t sound like “I should have the ability to tell other people what to do because I feel entitled to have something I can’t get using only my personality, actions, and appearance.”

      Oh hey, maybe I should replce “happily childfree” with “pristine and looking to remain so” to my OLD profiles  😀

      (I don’t feel inclined to pick too hard at “pristine”/”castoff” because people are allowed to have preferences, no matter how crassly expressed.  Preferences also include things like preferring to have kids with a particular consenting adult who’s already reproduced with someone else.)

       

       

      1. 5.2.1
        Fleurdl123

        Thank you, Stephanie. It’s good to see that an INTP and an ENFP can agree on this!  And of course people have the right to their preferences.  I feel that there’s a sense of entitlement and and hostility in some of the comments on here.

        1. AllHeart81

          Perfectly said Stephanie and Fleurd.

  6. 6
    Stacy

    I could never date/feel safe with a man who can go days without communicating (unless he was on a trip with the boys or something very unique). I am not even close to needy but I do not understand how people can continue to feel truly connected when they aren’t communicating everyday on average with their partner. For me, this is a natural fundamental need in order to grow intimacy.And I don’t understand why she feels the need to play it cool and not communicate her needs when you’ve been with this guy for almost a year.Why do lots of women (especially) sacrifice their needs/wants in order to not rock the boat? If my needs aren’t met or I am consistently unhappy about something, what’s the purpose of being in a relationship (especially when being single is not half bad)?

    1. 6.1
      Emily, the original

      Stacy,

      I am not even close to needy but I do not understand how people can continue to feel truly connected when they aren’t communicating everyday on average with their partner.

      I agree. I dated a guy who, when I expressed that we didn’t communicate enough, said, “Is there going to be a crisis if I don’t call everyday?” Needless the say, the whole thing imploded right then.

      1. 6.1.1
        Yet Anothe Guy

        @Emily, the original

        I agree with Evan on this one.  A guy who does not want to call or text a woman on a regular basis is not that into her.  She is an accessory to his life.

  7. 7
    Stacy

    @YAG
    If chemistry with your ex was a 4 or 5 at best, then you weren’t attracted period.So yes, you married a woman you weren’t physically attracted to (although I admire your ability to look past the external).

    1. 7.1
      Yet Anothe Guy

      @Stacy

      My marriage is a textbook example of why compatibility is more important than chemistry.  A marriage between intellectual equals with a shared value system and background can last a long time without having strong chemistry.  The opposite is rarely possible.  A marriage that is a 10 in chemistry and 4 to 5 in compatibility is often a nightmare.  That kind of marriage is a hot and cold, on-again, off-again mess. We just did not desire each other at the end, and I was no longer willing to settle for that kind of life.

      Another important distinction is that a couple with strong compatibility/weak chemistry tends to divorce differently than a couple with strong chemistry/weak compatibility.  Let’s say that the divorce process often a lot less contentious because passion is not clouding the couple’s judgement.  The complaint for our divorce was two pages in length, and the text was double spaced.  There were only four requests, three of which were boiler plate.  The only request that was not boilerplate was a request for my ex to granted the use of her maiden name, which I hoped that she did because that is what appears on her undergraduate and graduate diplomas.  It is more difficult for a woman to legally return to using her maiden if the request is made after the decree is issued in my state.

      1. 7.1.1
        Stacy

         
        YAG
         
        Sorry, your marriage is not a textbook of why compatibility is more important than chemistry. You weren’t even attracted. I am not denying that a marriage between intellectual equals can be ideal (although I don’t believe it is necessary and depends on the two people and what they want). But, I have enough friends and business partners who are intellectual equals (that is why we are friends and/or business partners). At the end of the day, I need to be able to want to f*** my partner. This is the differentiation between friends and lifelong partners – sex. You even admitted that is the reason you got a divorce. I am glad you got two beautiful children out of it but it doesn’t prove anything about your marriage.
         
        No one is advising to be with someone with weak compatibility. And no one is suggesting to pursue a 10 in chemistry. But a 4 or 5 on chemistry is as much sexual desire as a popsicle stick. I have been there. It is not enough. The chemistry definitely needs to be higher and it is unfair to anyone to be with someone who does not have that desire.  Sooner or later, it will catch up with you. Even in most of Evan’s examples I see, he tends to quote about having a 7 in chemistry or so. The man I am with now is not very high in chemistry for me but he damn sure isn’t a 4 or 5 (he is closer to the 7 range – 6 on my bad days). But compatibility is certainly a 9. 
         

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @Stacy

          I have to disagree with your asseration.  A couple with high compatibility/low chemistry will easily outlast a couple with high chemistry/low compatibility.  There is no substitute for compatibility.

          Men and women are radically different when it comes to chemistry.  One almost never encounters that word on a male profile, but it is pretty much all woman talk about when dating (e.g., woman always write about butterflies).   A 5 in chemistry is more than enough for many men.  Men are nowhere near as critical as women when it comes to sexual chemistry.  Unlike a woman, a man will sleep with a woman that he does not find to be attractive in the least.  Men do it all of the time.  The fact the men find most of the women on OKCupid to be desirable whereas women only find 20% of the men on that site to be desirable drives home which gender is more critical when it comes to chemistry.

      2. 7.1.2
        Stacy

        @YAG,

        This is a reply to your last comment below (since I am not able to reply directly to you there.

        I have yet to find a man who doesn’t desire or pursue women who he thinks is fairly ‘hot’ (by his estimation). Men RARELY settle down with women they have low attraction for. Shucks, I cant tell you how many times on this forum alone that I have heard of men who demand significantly younger women.  And if that man has options, he is going for it regardless. In fact, I would say that a woman is more apt to let chemistry ‘grow’ whereas a man will high tail it out of there if he is not turned on sufficiently (or he has other motives and will probably end up cheating). I never said men require a 10 chemistry (you seem hung up on that). But it is rare that a man approaches a woman he is not attracted to. Men don’t approach women for their ‘intellect’ at all. Now there are some men that are quite evolved and unique and will probably fall for the woman who is good ‘on paper’. But I guarantee you it is rare. Look around you for crying out loud.

        Any man who even looks half decent or has a half decent job will pursue younger and hotter. He only ‘settles’ if he has to. To reiterate, I am not saying most men go for a 10 in chemistry. What I am saying is that most men who have options do NOT settle for a 4 or 5. That is just fact. And men tend to not talk about it because well, they’re men. Most men on average just don’t sit around with their friends and talk about this sort of thing (although they will oogle a woman’s body and make a comment if warranted). And the fact that women didn’t think a lot of men were good looking on OkCupid proves nothing. All it means is that most men on OkCupid weren’t found to be that attractive.

         

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @Stacy

          I did not approach my ex while I was out.  I met my ex on Match in early 1997.  Match was radially different place in 1997 than it is today.  All matches were truly blind dates in that there were no photographs.  The service was basically an online version of the personals that one found in local newspapers.

          Online dating has always been a bit inverted in that one has the opportunity to get to know one’s date before actually meeting in person.  That is a huge plus for women.  With in-real-life dating, the getting to know each other period comes after in person physical attraction.  I meet a lot of women via dating sites who would not stand a chance with me if we met in person before chatting because they are physically unattractive due to being overweight and out of shape.  Most of the women I meet are at least a size 14 when they show up at the place at which we agreed to meet.  In fact, I am amazed when I meet a woman who is smaller than a size 14 (many are size 18+ because women are masters of the cropped photograph).  I feel like I have hit the online dating lottery.

          With that said, unattractiveness due to being overweight is fixable.  Most women have never had any instruction when it comes to exercise.  Dieting alone is not going to keep the weight off.  My ex was overweight when I first met her.  I had dated nothing, but Barbies before I met her.  With my support, she lost over fifty pounds between the time I met her and our wedding day.  However, her enthusiasm for maintaining that weight vanished after the wedding photos were shot, and she completely gave up after our children were born.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          *was a radically different place

        3. Shaukat

          @Stacy,

          And the fact that women didn’t think a lot of men were good looking on OkCupid proves nothing. All it means is that most men on OkCupid weren’t found to be that attractive.

          This inference you’ve drawn isn’t warranted at all. Maybe it would have held in the 90s, but not now. Virtually every attractive man/woman I have met or interacted with in some fashion has at some point tried OLD, specifically the big sites like OKC or Match (and tinder). In other words, the men (and women) on OKC don’t exist in some fifth dimension; they’re the same people you see around you IRL. For your assertion to be correct you would have to assume that a disproportionate number of attractive women joined the website in proportion to men. (far more average looking women join OKC than average looking men?)

          On a different thread you stated that the fact that your profile received 30 msgs a day, while saying very little, was evidence that men are far more interested in looks than women are, because you would never message a guy with a blank profile. Again, this assumption is unwarranted. What you are describing is a classic supply/demand problem. There’s an interesting scene in the movie A Beautiful Mind, when Russell Crowe’s character, while attempting to debunk Adam Smith’s theory of perfect competition, argues that if all the men ignore the most attractive blond in the bar and focus their attention on the other women, then the blond will have far less men competing for her and will have to adjust her preferences. In other words, take away the 30+ messages you were receiving a day, and I guarantee you would find yourself contacting people with less selectivity.

          I will agree with you on several points however: men (and women) become more selective as they get better at dating, and the threshold for just sleeping with someone vs marrying them is completely different for men.

  8. 8
    DeeGee

    Another good letter with a great response from Evan.

    I wanted to comment on one part of the original letter.
    I would be interested to hear what other commenters’ take is on this.

    We started off as friends, which turned to friends with benefits, which is now turned into a committed relationship. It has moved VERY slow and I’ve been very cool about that.”

    I have been on six dating sites for more than five years (and recently quit them), and a good percentage (25%?) of the women have on their profile that they are just looking for friends.
    One issue that I have always had with this is that it is a dating site, not a friending site, but now I am getting ahead of myself…
    I have “dated” (friended??) – gone out on friends with?? – a few of the women from the sites, going out for coffee, or even spending multiple long evenings together out camping or other things.  As just “friends”.  Confused??  Me too.
    And after a few times going out on “friends” (dates?) with them, if things are heading towards mutual  “like” for the both of us, I usually try to steer the relationship that way.  Always with zero success.
    For example, one woman who I recently met through an online dating site, we spent many “dates” out and a lot of hours together.  The conversation got to where she even said that she wants marriage in her future.  She said that she hadn’t been so happy in a long time because of spending time with me.  And since we both expressed liking each other, I [stupidly] commented to her that maybe we should consider actually dating.  That fell flat, she said she will only start a relationship off as friends, she left, and never contacted me again.
    So… my reaction?  I then started skipping over every woman’s profile on dating sites that said “looking for friends first”.
    So my feelings on the woman in the original letter, if this was a “friendship” that “VERY slowly” moved forward, then one or both of you really are not that much into the other person.  And my reaction would be to stay out of any relationship like that, or leave any relationship that advanced in that manner.
    If you like someone and they like you, and the mutual like level is close, and both of you have future goals of being in a relationship or being married, then date FFS, why “just be friends” for months or years.  Unless one of you is just leading the other on (perhaps to get sex or whatever) and doesn’t actually have a high interest level.
    And I agree that the guy in the letter just doesn’t sound that interested in her, or he is really blind to her needs (or pretty much any person’s needs), or just bad with long term relationship etiquette.  She needs to tell him her needs, and if he goes away due to that, she will have her answer on his true interest level.
    I have a close single female friend that I text pretty much every day, even just to say “what’s up” or “goodnight” and we are not even dating.  So texting is not difficult.

    1. 8.1
      SparklingEmerald

      DG – I agree with you 100%.  Dating sites are not for meeting friends.  When I would see a guy with his “friends first” BS, I would skip over his profile, because I knew that meant FWB.  I have no idea what women mean when they say “friends first”, but I would bet my last dollar that it did NOT mean FWB.  Probably means, friends ONLY and sex never. If I were a guy and encountered a “friends firster” on OLD, I think it would fun to suggest a dutch-treat initial meeting, just to see her response. 🙂

      When I was in the dating jungle, one failed phone screen was with a guy who’s profile and pic looked good, but during the conversation he said that he was “suspicious” of people who were on the site looking for relationships or marriage and that he was only on there to “meet people”.  I asked him what he wanted to “meet people” for, and he just said, “I just want to meet people”.  I told him upfront that I wasn’t necessarily looking for marriage (although I did end up marrying my match from match.com)  but I was looking to “meet someone” to form a long term romantic relationship.  He just continued to say that he was only there to “meet people” and all my queries into the purpose for “meeting” just led to the same, ” I just want to ‘meet people’ “.  At this point, I knew we weren’t a match, I figured he had already decided he didn’t want to meet me and was trying to put me off, so he’d be off the hook for an initial meet and greet.  I suggested that Meetup.com might be a better option if he wanted to just “meet people” and stay away from people who wanted relationships.  So the convo just kind of dwindled and ended without scheduling an initial meet and greet.  During the convo, I did ask him since he didn’t want a relationship, did he just want casual sex ?  (I asked him this after I determined he didn’t really want to meet me, so I had nothing to lose, and at this point, I didn’t want to meet him).  And he said no, he wasn’t into casual sex, he just wanted to “meet people”.

      I call shenanigans on that convo, but it was one of the more interesting failed phone screens.

      To me, going on a dating site to just “meet people” is like going to an employment agency just to go on job interviews and meet employers.  To go to an employment agency and say “I’m not looking for a job, I just want to go on interviews” would get you laughed right out of the office.  I probably should have laughed him right of the phone when he gave me his schtick, but inquiring minds wanted to know . . . 🙂

      I think people should steer very clear of anyone who is on a dating site to meet “friends”

      And I wish there would be some dating sites (maybe there are) who didn’t have every relationship check box goal available from “Casual sex” “Just Dating” “Serious relationship” “New Friends” and “Marriage”.

      I think POF did have a subdivision called “E-Vow” that was specifically for people who wanted marriage, but I have no idea how successful that venture was.

      1. 8.1.1
        Malika

        ‘Looking for friends’ or ‘just here to meet people’ brings me out in hives. Dating sites are for meeting people you want to have a romantic or sexual connection with, not for platonic friends.  ‘Looking for fun’ is at least in a semi-subtle way clear and if that is what you want go for it.

        Your phone call sounds like a commitmentphobe who has no idea what he wants. I’ve been that person myself, so no jugdment, but i’m glad you moved on swiftly.

        1. Adrian

          Hi Malika,

          You said, “sounds like a commitmentphobe who has no idea what he wants. I’ve been that person myself”

          Since you say that you were once a commitment phobe could you explain to me what that means?

          I know it sounds simple on the surface

          BUT

          Most women on this site say that a man (because they are talking about men but I am sure this applies to women to) who doesn’t want to commit or who doesn’t want to get married just hasn’t met the woman who they will commit to…

          So which is it?

          Is a commitment phobe someone who is afraid to commit to anyone or just someone who isn’t really completely into YOU, crazy about YOU, doesn’t seriously desire YOU, etc etc etc…?

          But he or she will when someone they really want comes along? Since you say you where once one I figured you could help me understand

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          Hey Adrian,

          It’s both.  There are men at there (as there are women) who will never marry.  Call them commitment phobic, but if they just can’t do it emotionally and psychologically, it’s better that they don’t.

          Then there are men (and women) who just haven’t met the right person at the right time, yet.  It’s really interesting to watch a cohort of friends go through their mid to late 20’s and 30’s.  A few get married between 22-27, and then, BAM!, the rate at which they start pairing off starts rising rapidly.  By the time people are in their 30s, most of the still single women and many of the single men are seriously looking.

        3. KK

          Hi Adrian,

          I’m in agreement with GWTF. In addition, it doesn’t really matter if you’re dating a true commitment-phobe or someone that just isn’t into you. Either way, it’s doomed.

          What’s really interesting is I’ve known people who I truly believe are commitment-phobes and they don’t think that they are. For instance, one of my best friends who has never married, has been saying she wants to get married for several years now, but her actions show something completely different.

          She regularly goes out with guys she’s completely unimpressed with. Nice guys, but they’re less attractive, less successful, etc. This puts her in the more powerful position so to speak, because they are waaaay more excited about her than she is about them. Just when these guys get really hooked on her and want a deeper commitment, she pulls the plug. Bonus: she never gets hurt. Minus: she never falls in love.

          She is an amazing person. She thinks she’s giving these guys a fair shot, but deep down, I believe she knows the truth.

           

      2. 8.1.2
        Nissa

        Really, is that what it means when a man says, “Friends first”? Wow, I read that in the opposite way – that a man wants to develop a friendship first before getting sexual. I know that my father, who had a surgery that rendered him virtually impotent, was horrified to find that almost all women he considered as girlfriends expected sex almost right away. I’m sure that my Dad, even had he been able, was old fashioned enough to not expect sex until they considered themselves to be “seriously dating”. So perhaps men with ED are saying “friends first”? Consider my eyes opened!

    2. 8.2
      Yet Another Guy

      @DeeGee

      If you are constantly being friend-zoned by women who want to be “friends first,” then the problem lies with you, not the women.   Most women who do the “friends first” thing are using it as a test to see if you are worthy of being granted the keys to the kingdom, so to speak.  You are either failing one of more of their “shit tests,” or you are failing to escalate at the proper time.  Most sane women do not want a nice guy.  In fact, being a nice guy is almost a surefire way to end up in the friend zone with any self-respecting woman.   Women want good guys.  A good guy is a nice guy with balls.  In essence, a good guy is a nice guy who demonstrates dominance and higher value.  Take the lead, make a woman feel secure in your presence (as in secure from the world, not from your sexual advances because that is surefire way to end up in the friend zone), fire up her emotions, escalate touch at the right time, and I guarantee that you will not end up in the friend zone.  For heaven’s sake, please do not let a woman speak to you like you are one of her girlfriends.  You are a man.  At worst, she will not be into you, so what?  There are plenty of fish in the sea.  That is part of demonstrating higher value. At least your manhood will still be in tact.  From the sound of it, you are letting women emasculate you.  No woman sexually desires a man that they can emasculate.

      1. 8.2.1
        DeeGee

        Yet Another Guy said: “If you are constantly being friend-zoned by women who want to be “friends first,” then the problem lies with you, not the women.” and said: “You are either failing one of more of their “shit tests,” or you are failing to escalate at the proper time.

        I am sure that the problem lies with myself and my timing.  The issue in my opinion is that every woman is different.  What works on one woman will not work on another.  The timing of one woman will vary from the timing of another.  But if a woman was actually interested, if her interest level was higher than 5, she wouldn’t be so quick to drop dating or whatever regardless of a date or two’s timing differences.
        While dating a lot over the past five years, I have had women get upset at me because I did not make sexually advances with them after three short dinner dates, and other women get upset at me because I proposed dating after four long “friend” days spent together.  A man cannot win.
        A man cannot trust that when a woman says “she likes you” that it means “she wants to date you”.  For some women it might mean they want to date, for other women it just means she wants to be a friend and nothing more.
        So I just do the best that I can do, be myself, I look for someone who is interested in me just as I am, and take the rejection like a man.  If I die before I find a woman, so be it, their loss.

        I recommend that every man (and woman) watches Scooter Magruder’s “What the Friend Zone Sounds Like” video:

      2. 8.2.2
        Emily, the original

        Mr. YAG,

        Take the lead, make a woman feel secure in your presence (as in secure from the world, not from your sexual advances because that is surefire way to end up in the friend zone), fire up her emotions, escalate touch at the right time, and I guarantee that you will not end up in the friend zone. 

        I agree with everything you’ve written here with one caveat. A man can do all of these things and still end up in the friend zone. If she’s not attracted to him, there isn’t a heck of a lot he can do. But if she is attracted to him (or at least on the fence), doing what you suggest is a way to attempt to escalate her interest.

        1. DeeGee

          Emily, the original said: “A man can do all of these things and still end up in the friend zone.

          100% true.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          While there are guys who are horrible at reading women, it is painfully obvious that attempting what I wrote with a women who is not interested is a complete waste of time.  A telltale sign that a woman is interested is that her pupils dilate when she is looking at you.   It is like she wants to take in all of you.  That indicator of interest is like being hit over the head with a sledge hammer. There are more subtle indicators of interest such licking her lips, staring at your mouth, fussing with her hair, and non-sexual touching.  These are dating 101 things that any guy my age should know.   Failing to pick up on any of these cues can lead to a man being friend-zoned because women want to be pursued.  A woman does not want a man to ask for permission to date her.  Most just want a man to automatically know and respond.   It is all about dominance.  A man needs to express it at the right time, or he is going to get friend-zoned because most women do not want to be romantically involved with a man who does not at least have alpha tendencies.

        3. Emily, the original

          Yet Another Guy,

          While there are guys who are horrible at reading women, it is painfully obvious that attempting what I wrote with a women who is not interested is a complete waste of time. 

          I don’t think it’s painfully obvious at all. A lot of men seem to think it’s what they do and how they interact with a woman that keeps them out of the friendzone but chances are, if she doesn’t feel romantically toward a man, she already put him there within a few of meeting him. (I’m making a sweeping statement here, because there are some women who are amenable to letting attraction grow.)

          A woman does not want a man to ask for permission to date her.

          Yes, I agree. If you two are spending time together, you are already dating. Asking to date her comes across as passive. I have a male friend/friendly acquaintance who asks for hugs or tells me he is available for hugs. It’s a turnoff.

           

           

        4. DeeGee

          Yet Another Guy said: “A telltale sign that a woman is interested is …”

          What a load of horsesh*t.  You sound like a really bad PUA booklet.  Have you been watching YouTube videos by guys like Coach Corey Wayne or someone?

  9. 9
    Fleurdl123

    I have always read a woman’s including “friends first” to signal “not interested in hooking up on our first date” rather than not interested in dating.

    1. 9.1
      Yet Another Guy

      After scratching my head on this one for some time, I have reached the conclusion that “friends first” is a safety net, ASD, and shit testing mechanism rolled into one.

    2. 9.2
      DeeGee

      Fleurdl123 said: “not interested in hooking up on our first date

      I would think that if their dating profile said “seeking long term relationship” or “seeking marriage”, that most guys would know already that it isn’t a hookup date.  Saying “friends” is something totally different IMHO.

      Fleurdl123 said: “rather than not interested in dating

      My personal experience has been the opposite.  Every woman that I have dated who had “looking for friends” on her dating profile, after a few dates when things seemed to be going well, when I asked if they were interested in more, ie. dating, they said no.  It’s more like they are looking to instantly friendzone any guy that they don’t deem as a 1%’er (the 6 sixes).  They still get “dates” but without having any of the dating requirements imposed on their end.  And putting “looking for friends” on their profile gives them an easy out if the guy wants more and they don’t.
      It’s like they are shit-test pre-stepping the requirements or implications for dating totally for their own benefit.  That is why I totally skip over any profile that has friends listed as motive.

      Yet Another Guy said: “I have reached the conclusion that …

      I agree with your assessment.  With every woman that I have dated over the past few years, who had “friends first” on her dating profile, it seems like she is just using that as another shit-test for men, and for controlling the relationship, or trying to take the relationship control from the men. “If you bring up dating before I do, then I am out of here, because after all I have an excuse, I said friends on my dating profile”.

      1. 9.2.1
        Marika

        I hear you, DeeGee, I went out with a guy for a few weeks who I met on a dating site who acted like a date the whole time – paid for everything (wouldn’t hear of me even contributing), took me to lovely places, complimented me etc, but never made any moves. I put my head on his shoulder or snuggled up to him, he just sat there. Finally I asked him what was going on and he said “what do you mean, we are friends”. He was a practising Catholic, had quite a few bad experiences with women, and I think he was scared.

        It’s annoying, and if it had happened to me more than once I’d be pretty upset too.

        But, and this is an important but, I don’t know of anyone who consciously does ‘shit tests’ (other than mgtow’s). Maybe such people exist, but it’s far more likely, in my view that this is being done out of fear & self-protection, not deliberately to hurt or test you.

        I also think it would be erroneous to conclude that being friends first is necessarily a bad foundation for a relationship. I think it’s a great foundation for a relationship with people you have a history with & start to develop feelings for. I just think being ‘fake friends’ with someone from a dating site is a bad & confusing start. I would definitely avoid the ‘friends first’ people on dating sites, they clearly aren’t ready for anything romantic, IMO.

        1. DeeGee

          Marika

          I agree with everything you said.  More or less.  🙂

          I put my head on his shoulder or snuggled up to him, he just sat there.

          That is a pretty obvious sign of attraction.  Even I know what that means.  He was definitely scared or had issues.

          I also think it would be erroneous to conclude that being friends first is necessarily a bad foundation for a relationship.

          I agree, but if she is giving what any person would assume are signs of romantic interest, most guys are going to ask if she wants to move from friends to dating.
          If the woman I am going out and doing things with, even if she had “looking for friends” on her dating profile, if we have gone out multiple times, if she is initiating contact more than me and actively planning the next time we get together, telling me her future plans include marriage, telling me that she hasn’t been so happy in a long time when we are together, hugging me, well then of course I am going to ask her if she wants to date!  What guy wouldn’t??  Well, that has backfired on me more than once.  So I started passing over every profile that said “friends”.  Mainly because I am actually looking to date and be in a relationship.  If a woman has “friends” on her profile because she is looking for a male girlfriend to take her out and do stuff for her, but never ever date, then that isn’t me.  And I’m not going to wait through months or years of her giving what I feel are pro-dating signals while she makes up her mind.  If her attraction level is that low that she knows she doesn’t want to date me, I’m not going to “White Knight” and be her male girlfriend while she makes up her mind, because chances are her level is not going to go much or any higher.  I’ve been the “White Knight” before and it sucks.  I have not accumulated sufficient numbers to create a proper statistic on whether all women who have “friends” on their dating profile will do this, but for me it was 100%.

          I think it’s a great foundation for a relationship with people you have a history with & start to develop feelings for.

          I don’t know how much I agree with this… I’m sure that everyone knows pretty much right away or within a few minutes if they are attracted to someone.  You might change your interest level over time, either up or down depending on what they are like when you get to know them better (which dating is for).  But I doubt that the vast majority of people will go from an interest level of 0 to a level of 7+ over the span of months or years with any of their friends.

          I don’t know of anyone who consciously does ‘shit tests’ …

          Google “do women shit test men” and you will get a lot of examples of what are classified as shit tests, and how women do them even subconsciously.  It could be to see if he is genuine, if he will stand up for himself, or any number of other tests of his confidence.  I will agree that the term is “red pill” but I feel it has some validity.
          I would however be interested in Evan’s perspective on it.  😉

        2. SparklingEmerald

          You are wise to skip over profiles of women looking for “new friends” or “friends first”.  Dating sites are for DATING, not for cultivating platonic friendships.  There is meetup.com for that.

          If a woman is putting “friend’s first” to indicate that she doesn’t want to be a booty call (or have sex on a first date) then that is very ineffective.

          Don’t state your objection to immediate sex, just set boundaries, during the process.   If you don’t want sex on a first date, don’t go to his or your place on a first date.  (Kinda hard to have sex in a wine bar or the park) Be affectionate on a first date, but hold off on the heavy making out and petting if you don’t want to escalate to sex. Hand holding, snuggling, etc. light kissing is enough to let a guy know you are attracted, without it escalating into sex.

          But stop this nonsense of “Friends First” or “New Friends” on a DATING site.

          I  know very quickly if I am attracted to a guy, and if I’m not initially attracted, I will not become attracted by friend zoning him  or “giving him a chance”.

          But just because I am immediately attracted to him, does not mean I will immediately have sex with him.  Sexual attraction is just the first thing I discover.  ( I don’t choose who I am attracted to, I discover it)  Other things like compatibility, his interest in a real relationship (and not just a booty call) take longer to discover.

        3. Tom10

          @ SparklingEmerald
           
          “If a woman is putting “friend’s first” to indicate that she doesn’t want to be a booty call (or have sex on a first date) then that is very ineffective”
           
          Right.
           
          “Don’t state your objection to immediate sex, just set boundaries, during the process.”
           
          This. This is huge.
           
          It’s amazing how many women write “no hookups” or something similar in their profile and don’t realize how unappealing – and ineffective – that is. Actions speak so much louder than words in this respect.
           
          A related funny anecdote; a female friend of mine showed me a guy’s profile where his tag line was “swipe left if you only want an ons”. Needless to say she took him at face value that he wanted more than just sex. Three messages later and he began the kinky messages.
           
          “(Kinda hard to have sex in a wine bar or the park)”
           
          Well…it can be done…LOL!

        4. SS

          I agree in that I don’t think women use it for tests.  Its more like a way to say get to know me slower.  Too many men go onto dating sites looking for what they want or need.  Not actually being flexible and understanding.

        5. Yet Another Guy

          @SS

          Its more like a way to say get to know me slower.

          There are way too many fish in the sea to deal with women who want to play the “friends first” game.  My dating philosophy is if there is no mutual desire to touch and kiss on the first date, then there is no second date, as going on a second date is just a waste of time and financial resources.

          Online dating is a numbers game.  A lot of women refuse to accept that reality.  They chastise men who serial date. Serial dating is a fact of life for a man on a dating site, and it should be for a woman.  The only way that most people are going to meet someone with whom they click is to run up the numbers.  Think about how many people a person meets in real life before he/she encounters someone special.  Online dating is no different.

  10. 10
    Marika

    DeeGee

    I would strongly suggest only dating women without children. I know it will narrow your search, but no woman wants to be with a man who feels the way you do, that you’re settling & that you find the whole thing abhorrent (her body, the kids themselves, the impact on you). It wouldn’t be fair to her. Unless, of course you can make peace with it. But to date women with children and then complain on here relentlessly when you do, is pretty fruitless.

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