Nov29

If Men Like Only Hot Women, Where Does That Leave an Average Woman Like Me?

08:30 am on Nov 29th 2007 Evan Marc Katz

Finding the One Online is a comprehensive, life-changing program that covers everything I teach my clients about online dating. If you want to get your love life on track and aren't sure where to start, Finding the One Online is the best investment you can make.

128 Comments »Filed Under Dating Tips & Advice, Sex & Relationship Advice

128 Responses to “If Men Like Only Hot Women, Where Does That Leave an Average Woman Like Me?”

1. a&v Nov 29th 2007 at 10:39 am 1

   A thought-provoking but disheartening post, Evan. I venture to guess that even those of us a little higher on the Beauty Scale (and whatever happened to beauty being in the eye of the beholder anyway?) want to be appreciated for qualities that lie deeper than skin tissue. I also think there is a difference between who a man (or woman) wants to date and who a man (or woman) wants to marry. For example I, a reasonably intelligent and thoughtful woman, for a time dated men purely on the merits of their looks (and their ability to make me laugh).

   There is a difference, I think, in what is conventionally beautiful and what each of us finds attractive. Of course we want to end up with a person who is the absolute best (in all areas) that we can attract. And it is true that women aren’t always as visually driven as men. To me, bald doesn’t automatically equate unattractiveness, nor does a couple of extra pounds. In fact, now that I’m looking for more than a cute boyfriend, I steer clear of anyone who looks like they could’ve walked out of a glossy magazine ad.

   I want drive, integrity, confidence, humor more than I want chiseled abs. I would hope that the person I end up with will love me for more than my long legs, ample who-know-what and blondish hair. Both of us will age and whatever good looks we started out with will change—with luck, exercise and good diet, we’ll age like fine wine but who knows?

   Perhaps this is why I am still single—happily so, though I am fascinated by male/female interaction and am putting forth a good effort to find a partner. Foolish or not, I am holding out for one of those rare men.

2. chiara Nov 29th 2007 at 10:49 am 2

   By my experience, there are plenty of great men out there, if women would only stop being shallow and petty about tax brackets and hair gel and such. I think it’s the women looking to date outside their own leagues, who want a boyfriend they can show off, who complain the most about men’s shallowness.

   I think, before anyone is honestly ready to fall in love, they themselves have to shut off that judgmental reflex inside them that cares about what it “looks like” to be with someone. Once you stop giving a damn about superficial stuff, and start paying attention to genuine measures of compatibility (like trust, comfort, mutual respect) doesn’t it seem way more likely that the “lid” is out there for your “pot”?

3. Ron Nov 29th 2007 at 11:29 am 3

   Generally speaking, I agree with Evan on this. HOWEVER, perhaps Evan has spent too much time in LA. I used to live in LA, but now live in the Midwest. I see lots of good looking guys with women that are not as attractive as them. And I live in a major city, not the sticks. So, to the woman who wrote the article, you cannot blame your appearance for your lack of results.

   Now, on to a more important issue. I am sick and tired of hearing how shallow men are. Women are even more shallow in many cases. At least men can blame their shallowness about beauty on biology -something they have no control over.

   But women are attracted to money and successful men. If you are famous and look like a fat pig or a dork, you’ll still get a hot girl (just look at the unattractive male celebrities with the hot blondes).

   I was a very good looking guy when I was in my 20s. However, I was not financially successful. I had so many women who were interested in me until they found out I did not have a good job or much money.

   Then, later, when I started to become more successful, women were suddenly interested. And I don’t mean women who wanted to marry me.

   Women have the same shallow prequalifications that men do. It’s just that while men screen women out for beauty, women screen men out for their level of financial success.

   To me, that’s even more shallow. After all, you cannot blame that on biology. Although, it could be an instictive desire for a woman to be attracted to men who they believe are good providers. But, most women are not going on a date hoping the guy will be their husband down the road.

   Shallow, shallow, shallow ladies! Now, enough of the frickin’ male bashing. Go men!

4. Ron Nov 29th 2007 at 11:41 am 4

   chiara – love the line about the tax brackets!! You took the words right out of my mouth. Women I first meet ALWAYS ask a sneaky question upfront to get an idea of how much money I make and what I do for a living. Shallow, shallow, shallow!!!

   a & v – I enjoyed reading your post, but you’ve got a lot to learn, girl! While I despise the pickup artist stuff on the market, I LOVE what one of them said (because it’s so true and hits you right between the eyes): We do NOT make a conscious decision about what or who we find attractive. It is like broccoli (my words here) — do you decide whether or not you like broccoli? Do you decide whether or not you like (such as a & v) a long-legged blonde with a nice rack and a pretty face? Versus a more down-to-earth brunette who looks like the girl next door? It is not a conscious decision of who we find attractive.

   BUT, picking a guy because he has a fat bank account, a high paying job, or because he is on TV IS a conscious decision. Shallow, shallow, shallow, ladies.

   As for me, I see TONS of women I find attractive. And yes, while I feel my standards are fairly high, I see them all over the place. And no, I’m not talking Playboy model types (although I wouldn’t kick any of those out for munching on Triscuits in bed). I’m talking about girl next door types.

   Oh boy, can’t wait to see the male bashing posts to follow.

5. christine Nov 29th 2007 at 12:18 pm 5

   hi ron,

   where do you live? i’m in the chicago area.

   christine

6. SueC Nov 29th 2007 at 12:30 pm 6

   No bashing from me Ron. I accept men as they are. I don’t always like the way things are and end up spending time alone when I’d rather be with someone, but reality is reality. I can’t change them. And there is only so much I can change about the physical me.

   I can, however, continue to become the real person that I am which makes me happier which (I think) makes me more attractive overall. It certainly makes me more confident and discerning and less likely to date just anyone. I much prefer someone with character, intelligence, integrity, humor….and, for me, height. Okay….I’m a little shallow…so shoot me. I’m tired of dancing with a guys face in my chest.

7. Selena Nov 29th 2007 at 12:38 pm 7

   Men who are 5’s may only want to date women who are 10’s, but how often do they end up with them? Talking average people here, not billionaires and celebrities. Go to any Wal-Mart and you will observe most of the couples are of the same level of attractiveness– high, low, in between. So these people are finding each other somehow.

   Maybe when they are unsuccessful mating with someone possessing the looks they think they “require” men (and women) find themselves settling for all the neat other stuff, like intellect, sense of humor, innate kindness and compatibility. I discovered many years ago that the more I come to care about someone, the more physically attractive they become to me–even if I thought they were just ehh…upon first meeting. This is something that just can’t be determined from a pic on a dating site.

8. Marissa Nov 29th 2007 at 12:45 pm 8

   “Women I first meet ALWAYS ask a sneaky question upfront to get an idea of how much money I make and what I do for a living.”

   I generally ask what a man does for a living, because what he does says a lot about him (his personality – after all, most of our lives are defined by what we do for a living, right?) I’m an attorney, by the way, so I am not really looking for a man to take care of me, but I am interested to know that he enjoys his work as much as I enjoy mine. Why is a simple “getting to know you” type question such a minefield for some men?

   “BUT, picking a guy because he has a fat bank account, a high paying job, or because he is on TV IS a conscious decision. Shallow, shallow, shallow, ladies. ”

   I’m not entirely sure where you live, Ron, but I don’t know any woman my age (late-20s) who does this. A lot of them are equally as successful and educated as their husbands, and make as much if not more money. Many have helped thier men through grad school and prolonged periods of unemployment, as well. That’s what a complete partnership is all about. Perhaps, instead of painiting all women with the same “shallow, shallow, shallow” brush, you should look at what kinds of women you’re attracted to and whether they truly represent the balance of the female population.

9. Selena Nov 29th 2007 at 12:50 pm 9

   Ron,
   I don’t care much for brocolli plain. But with cheese sauce? Yummy. Plain can have zing if you don’t dismiss it out of hand. Same with people.

10. BeenThruTheWars Nov 29th 2007 at 12:53 pm 10

    Ron, I adore men, I wouldn’t bash ‘em with a gun to my head. Men are fabulous creatures. My own husband (11 years younger and a “face man” according to his long-ago fraternity brothers) told me on our second date, after I made a light but self-deprecating comment about my overweight self, “Men are all pigs, we all want to nail a supermodel. But when it comes down to who do we want to get old with, we get realistic in a hurry.” That remark turned out to be prescient in my case, at least, as six months later he proposed. Our second anniversary is New Year’s Day and we just get happier and more bonded as time goes on, even as I get commensurately further away from my perky youthful self.

    Tia-Maria, here is my advice: behave “as if” you are the hottest thing on the planet. I’m not talking about being snotty, I’m talking about developing the kind of friendly poise and self-assurance you imagine a supermodel would have, greeting her fans. Don’t treat hot guys as if they are hot and should be highly sought after. Treat them with an attitude of, “Okay, big guy, show me what it is you have to offer me” — and no, I’m not talking financially, I’m talking about how will he treat me, how good of a companion will he be, how emotionally supportive will he be, etc. Remember: no matter what you look like, YOU ARE THE PRIZE. YOU ARE THE PRIZE. YOU ARE THE PRIZE. Repeat as necessary.

    I read somewhere, “Men gather and women choose.” So true. Now, the men who gather may not be your first choice in the whatever department (looks, finances, smarts), but you weed out the unsuitable types and choose among the gems who are left. It’s so true that when a man is ready to settle down, and so much of mating IS about timing, he won’t necessarily hold out for the greatest physical prize but will marry the woman he feels he could take home to meet Mom. Whatever you have to do — a therapist, daily affirmations, self-help books — but just stay positive and DECIDE that you are “all that” and walk the walk, girl. Don’t give the “it” guys any more special treatment than you give any other guys. They will be intrigued that you aren’t all over them like the other salivating female hordes. “Why isn’t this woman knocking herself out to be with me? I must find out. Could it be she’s a cut above the rest?” Try this type of attitude adjustment… and report back in a month.

11. Erika Nov 29th 2007 at 12:54 pm 11

    Hm. I make plenty of my own money–I don’t need a man for that. In fact, I shy away from guys who have all the standard “trappings” of success–wealth, cars, etc., because frankly I find them boring. I want someone who’s engaged intellectually and culturally, and when you’re too busy chasing the almighty dollar you don’t have much time to read, contemplate art, and reflect. One of the wealthier men I’d dated couldn’t handle the fact that I liked making my own decisions (and was afraid to park his car in my edgy, urban neighborhood), and the other one didn’t have anything interesting to bring to our conversational table. He told me, in fact, that he hadn’t read a book since he was 14, and I’m a librarian.

    I’m not average, but I’m kind of quirky and unusual and don’t appeal to men who are threatened by a woman who speaks her mind and doesn’t pull punches. But there are a lot of men I do appeal to, and I never had problems finding dates. So my advice to Tia-Maria is this: don’t chase men who don’t want you, instead concentrate on finding the men out there who do. It may be a smaller pool, and it may take you more time and effort to find them, but there out there. You gotta keep looking! What other choice do you have?

12. Roger Nov 29th 2007 at 01:24 pm 12

    Wow. This was a good discussion, both the question and the answers. Seems like everyone is at least partially right. For example, I was rather shocked after I left the college dating scene to find out just how shallow women could be when it came to how much money men earned. I actually heard female friends talking about about what kind of car a guy drives or his salary the same way guys talked about a hot women’s boobs. And as a guy who was pretty good looking, but not very financially secure, I just couldn’t believe how much my “value” went down in the eyes of women after I graduated college (I found that generally women didn’t really start focusing on the money thing until they got out of college.)

    I remember how disappointing it was to find out that women really could be as shallow as men. “But men are supposed to be shallow,” I would say. “Women are supposed to be deeper!”

    On the other hand, men, including me when I was younger, can be so hung up on a woman’s looks that it really is disgusting, and extremely stupid. Luckily, I found out thru trial and error, that the value I was placing on a woman’s looks was ludicrous. Not only did it make it harder for me to find someone, it also turned out that looks were just one component of many that I needed to consider when looking for a girlfriend.

    The value I placed on looks had been way overstated. I dated a number of good looking women, and some average looking women, and to my astonishment, personality turned out to be far more important. I didn’t seek to come to that conclusion, I just came to that conclusion based on the reality of my experiences

    So, men, give yourself a break and give the women a break. Don’t be so hung up on looks and you might actually get a few dates and find that the pool of female possibilities is enormously enriched and expanded.

13. Markus Nov 29th 2007 at 01:39 pm 13

    I actually don’t think women are much more responsible for their attractions than we are. Women are conditioned by society AND evolution to find the man who will “win the game”. Not necessarily rich and greedy but, as was said, a good provider. Well, I make decent money but guess what having kids and paying child support does to you? Right. Lu-hoo-su-her. For the record, I’m 38 and in great shape. No chiseled abs but great shape. All I ask is something similar. I don’t want a playboy model. I actually like “girl next door” better but someone who’s kept their body in shape is important.

14. Steve Nov 29th 2007 at 02:37 pm 14

    Evan states his opinion that dating books for men focus on getting the hottest woman, because that is what men want and that is what sells books. I happen to agree. Could it be that Evan, in this article, departed from his usual “accept the world as it is” attitude to use value judgments like “shallow” when referring to men, because he markets his material to women? Hey, we all have to make a living…..no problems there.

    In my humble opinion, looks count. People who say otherwise are trying to sell something, if not to others than to themselves. Does that mean most people are shallow?

    I would say a person is shallow when looks are the only thing that counts or when looks count more than other important things.

    I’ve been turned down based on my looks and I am a man. I know that is sucks.

    In addition to all of the men in the world who reduce women to pieces of meat there are many women who reduce men walking wallets.

15. Evan Marc Katz Nov 29th 2007 at 02:47 pm 15

    “Could it be that Evan, in this article, departed from his usual “accept the world as it is” attitude to use value judgments like “shallow” when referring to men, because he markets his material to women?”

    Uh, no.

    I don’t market my material on this blog to anyone, Steve. I simply answer the questions that people write to me. Not surprisingly, 95% of them come from women.

    Why?

    Beats the shit out of me. Far as I can tell, men need more help; women ask for more help. That’s why “Why You’re Still Single” was for women. Women actually care about self-improvement. Men, in general, don’t frequent the self-help section of bookstores. Their loss.

    So if you’re a man who’s reading this, and you want my blog to tackle your questions, maybe you should start asking them.

    Otherwise, yeah, this is gonna be a one-stop shopping home for women who want to get smart about men and dating.

16. Ben Nov 29th 2007 at 03:28 pm 16

    Men not asking questions here makes perfect sense. Men are always shy about asking for directions… or help.

    In dating, “Men need more help” because women are (by necessity) generally pickier. Men’s standards are much lower, as you stated above.

17. Camilla Nov 29th 2007 at 03:42 pm 17

    My way of dealing with it is to accept that most guys want 10, but also find that guys are often hard-wired to be attracted to a certain type. So I want the guys who think I’m a 10.

    For instance, I’m pretty but my weight fluctuates between size 4 and 10. At size 4, I stop traffic, but even when I’m a little heaver, some guys dig that. European boyfriends in particular, hated when I got too thin. It was such a relief to know that I was still a 10 to them, even when I was worried about not being sexy–they really thought I was. So I’m more about finding that natural attraction that comes with being someone’s type.

    I have one very obese friend, and she dates plenty! But she only posts ads on sites that are FOR guys looking for women who are her body type. She’s a 10 to them. Everyone’s happy.

18. Sam Nov 29th 2007 at 04:16 pm 18

    I think the women here might be exaggerating male lookism and men are exaggerating women’s lust for money. Some men are still pigs and some women are still golddiffers, but overall male and female attitudes towards mate selection are converging:

    Just as women have long sought to marry a good breadwinner, men, too, now find earning potential sexy. “There are fewer Cinderella marriages these days,” says Stephanie Coontz, author of “Marriage, a History.” “Men are less interested in rescuing a woman from poverty. They want to find someone who will pull her weight.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/19/magazine/19wwln_idealab.html

19. Ron Nov 29th 2007 at 04:29 pm 19

    Christine – I live further south than ChiTown.

    Marissa – I could argue you down and I have no legal degree. But, you helped me to decide I’ll never marry an attorney.

    Markus and Steve – great posts. Markus – you hit the nail on the head. I told a psychologist friend of mine that my theory is that women are instinctively looking for a good provider and in part despise men who do not make much money because of that reason. Part of that could be argued as biology, but I’m not sure I accept the notion that it’s all biology.

    Perhaps the best advice is to take Martin Luther King’s recommendation of judging people by their individual character, and not by their race, sex, etc.

    I will be the first to say that I am extremely visual. I would only consider dating a woman that I (emphasis “I”) find attractive. But, my “10″ might be another man’s “7″ or “8.”

    And I will add that if a woman is rude, overly materialistic, or as thick as a brick, I will write her off as quickly as I would write off a woman I find physically repulsive.

    The #1 turnoff for me is rudeness. I don’t care if that person is hotter than hell. If she’s rude, I want nothing to do with her.

    Now, on with the show!

20. Markus Nov 29th 2007 at 04:53 pm 20

    Man, it’s cool when EMK posts. He has a frame and everything. ; )

21. downtowngal Nov 29th 2007 at 05:40 pm 21

    Gimme a break, Evan, I think you’ve been living in LA for too long. And great resopnses from everone else. While most women accept that men value looks because they’re visual, at the end of the day it really depends on a woman’s confidence. And, yes, you can say the same thing about women and a guy’s earning potential (I see this in NY a lot, esp among the younger gals).

    Sure guys are attracted by a woman’s looks but what one guy will consider hot another will say ‘eah’. I’ve seen this a lot. Case in point: a gal I grew up with is not what one would consider conventionally beautiful at all, yet always had a boyfriend and has been happily married for years to an attractive, smart guy. Why? Because she’s always had a good sense of herself and never seemed obsessed with looking a certain way. She was always popular and people respected her. I’ve also met women my guy friends have dated and seen photos of former boyfriends’ exes. None of these women looked like porn stars or supermodels.

    One of the most pathetic sights is seeing a guy in his 40’s+ who’s never been married, nether fit nor well-kept but sez he want to settle down and will only consider women who look like supermodels. These guys have unrealistic expectations and complain that women will only date them for their $$. Well, if money is all these guys have going for them, why would any decent gal want that?

22. Steve Nov 29th 2007 at 07:12 pm 22

    Evan, fair enough.

23. Ava Mazur Nov 29th 2007 at 08:14 pm 23

    I totally agree with Evan. But here is the thing confidence can turn a 5 into a 10. I am a attractive but GASP overweight, Im not wearing moomoos but a string bikini is just not a good idea. Here is the thing I can own my pudge. I dont complain about it I dont have sex with the lights off and quite frankly I walk around thinking every man is turning thier heads at me. But my sumation is guys like the thrill of the unattainable…and beautiful women have that. Give guys a bit of a chase and they will follow.

24. hunter Nov 29th 2007 at 10:35 pm 24

    recently, at a singles seminar, I heard a female therapist say, that, 2/3 of men marry for the sexual and sensual, and 1/3 for money, whereas, 2/3 of women marry for financial stability, and 1/3 of women marry for the sexual and sensual….a young lady stood up and said, “that is not what I was told.” The therapist replied, “Who are you going to believe, your friends, or 30 years of studies and research?”

25. hunter Nov 29th 2007 at 10:40 pm 25

    I recently got away from flirting with the “sexy” women, now, I flirt with, the plain, average, women, and enjoy life, much more!

26. Lynn Nov 29th 2007 at 10:49 pm 26

    Let’s face it: men are “wired” differently, and good visuals *immediately* get them in the mood. From what I can tell though, good visuals can be any number of things: large breasts, an athletic figure, lacy stockings and high heels, flawless skin with no makeup; red lipstick; confident posture. This seems to be something that European women know, and they make the most of whatever works for them as individuals. The attractiveness that some Americans may rate as a “5″ could be transformed into an incredibly alluring and sexy package. Maybe we should do away with the 1-10 scale anyway?

27. Steve Nov 30th 2007 at 06:08 am 27

    
    hunter Nov 29th 2007 at 10:35 pm 24

    recently, at a singles seminar, I heard a female therapist say, that, 2/3 of men marry for the sexual and sensual, and 1/3 for money, whereas, 2/3 of women marry for financial stability, and 1/3 of women marry for the sexual and sensual….a young lady stood up and said, “that is not what I was told.” The therapist replied, “Who are you going to believe, your friends, or 30 years of studies and research?”
    

    I can relate to that quote. I was brought up by feminists and other sundry idealists. About halfway through college I got smart and started looking at how people actually worked instead of how other people wanted me to believe people should work.
    As Grouch Marx once put it:

    “Who are you going to believe? Me, or your own eyes?”

    One of the reasons why I enjoy Evan’s blog. He is refreshingly honest.

28. Alan Nov 30th 2007 at 06:27 am 28

    As a guy (*ducks*), my initial impression of a woman is based on looks. If I don’t think I could be attracted to her, forget it. However, that initial determination of “am I attracted to her” varies wildly among the male population. While the buxom blonde stereotype is most likely to find the best reception among the male population in total, it’s not the ideal for all guys.

    So where does that leave you if you’re not a buxom blonde? Don’t aim for the guys who are after the buxom blondes. Look for someone who’s attracted to *you*.

    Brief note that I find self-confidence and self-contentment (i.e., knowing who you are and accepting it) to be very attractive. Looks matter but they are far from the only factor or the one deciding factor.

    One last brief observance. In college, I dated a girl who definitely did not fit the “beautiful” stereotype. She really wasn’t a looker – instead, she was a rather plain, slightly overweight girl-next-door. Yet, for some reason I was incredibly attracted to her. I have no idea why I was or what it was about her, I only hope that I meet another woman for whom I feel an equally strong (or greater) attraction.

29. Roger Nov 30th 2007 at 08:10 am 29

    I have a theory that all the talk men make about looks and women make about money, is more talk than anything else. The same way we all talk about how we’d like to be millionaires and have a big yacht. We talk about it, but we’re not that serious about it, we don’t expect it to happen. After all, average looking women and men without lots of money are dating and getting married all the time, every day in fact.

30. Selena Nov 30th 2007 at 10:48 am 30

    Looks will initially draw the eye, but I agree self-confidence and self-contentment (great word Alan!) become bigger draws as you get to know someone. There is something incredibly attractive about someone who is comfortable in their own skin–in both men and women.

31. cami Nov 30th 2007 at 10:55 am 31

    Um, Evan, you spent a lot of time in this post talking about how men are visual. Got I. But what was the advice for women? To NOT hold out for a man who doesn’t care about looks?

    OK, done.

    I don’t know about you, but most of the women I know are realists who at least accept the fact that a guy’s gotta be physically attracted to them if they’re gonna get a date.

    Was there any more advice for women like us, or was your advice just directed at the subset of women who insist on dating non-looksists?

    Maybe I’m thick, but I honestly had a hard time finding your post all that helpful or informative, though there was an interesting anecdote in there about how you fired your first writing partner for contradicting your idea of “good” advice.

    (Tia-Maria, if you think all men require you to be a 10, you’re lookin’ for love in all the wrong places. Look at the women you know who are married or seriously involved with a guy. They’re not all 10s, are they?)

32. ABF Nov 30th 2007 at 10:58 am 32

    Are men attracted to beauty? Sure (so are women). However, the old saw of beauty being in the eye of the beholder still prevails. Are women drawn to stable and secure men? Of course, but again the definition of stability and security are almost as diverse as their are women. I really think a lot of frustration, heartache and lonliness could be avoided if people just learned to enjoy themselves and take time to stop and smell the proverbial roses.

33. Evan Marc Katz Nov 30th 2007 at 11:07 am 33

    Thanks for the note, Cami. As you well know, not all advice has to promise life-changing revelation. The point of this post, as articulated in the last few paragraphs, was simply to validate Tia-Maria’s concerns and let her know that, despite men’s shallowness, there is hope.

34. Sam Nov 30th 2007 at 12:42 pm 34

    Women have a point when they say that men care about superficial things like a woman’s looks, but I have a feeling that women themselves care a lot about other women’s looks too.

    Women I’ve known have repeatedly made disparaging comments about other women’s looks. Often these comments come completely out of the blue. Once when I told an ex-girlfriend that I was dating someone new the ex-girlfriend immediately smilingly asked, “is she pretty?” (the ex-gf had never been shallow before)

    If women themselves judge other women by their looks, then how can you hold men to a higher standard?

    I disagree with Tia-Marie. You don’t have to look like a model to have a boyfriend. Different men are attracted to different things and most men have a broad range of what they find attractive.

    Some people are just weird though. There are 5s out there who think they can get a 10. People like that are a minority, just keep going and eventually you’ll find someone who finds you beautiful.

35. Ron Nov 30th 2007 at 12:56 pm 35

    Let’s face it. There aren’t that many really attractive people out there (on a percentage basis when compared with the entire population).

    Yet, something like 95% of us will eventually marry (myself excluded).

    Now, let’s figure that roughly 10-15% of the population (probably much less than that) are drop dead gorgeous (males and females).

    It’s obvious: There’s hope for everyone who has physical flaws. It would be interesting to see a study of whether or not really beautiful people are happier in their marriages than average or eve below average looking people.

36. Evan Marc Katz Nov 30th 2007 at 01:31 pm 36

    Actually, Sam, I disagree. I don’t think you have to look like a model to have a boyfriend – not by any stretch of the imagination. But I do think that with the advent of online dating, when men are scrolling through pages of pages of women, there’s very little incentive for them to write to average women when they feel like they can take a shot at a model. They may be delusional, but it doesn’t stop them at all.

    People go online and complain that the people they DON’T want write to them, and the people they DO want won’t write back.

    So more realistically, the average person is a 5 who wants to date an 8. The problem is that most of us think we’re 8’s.

    Therein lies the disconnect – and the source of the disappointment.

37. UWS MuShu Jew Nov 30th 2007 at 02:23 pm 37

    It’s interesting, because I think this discussion seems to revolve around the nexus of men’s and women’s individual insecurities around aspects of our dating profiles that we are not able to fully control.

    Issues of diet and exercise aside, to a certain extent one’s physicality is one’s physicality. (Example: I will always have a belly. If at around 5’6”, 105 pounds, and working out 2 hours a day I still had a belly, it’s not unreasonable to think that at that point, it’s just genetics.) Similarly, depending on your job, your salary range is set within the confines of your profession. School teachers as a general rule will not make a six figure annual salary, but corporate attorneys generally will. I work in theatre; my neighborhood Starbucks Barista makes more than I do.

    The concerns voiced all seem to only hint at the underlying fear that in the world of dating we are all being summarily judged unfairly on characteristics about which we, ourselves, are already insecure. We take information of all sorts and place it into neat, little heuristic box to make our decisions, but our own insecurities increase the perceived weight which certain traits carry when others place that information into their own neat, little heuristic boxes.

    Ultimately, many of the comments seem to speak to the desire for each of us to be judged as individuals rather than as generic categories.

38. wildgingersnap Nov 30th 2007 at 03:16 pm 38

    Tia Maria, the surest way to guarantee no man will find you desirable is to assume that no man will find you desirable. It’s up to you. Do you really think there are men out there who wouldn’t be psyched to have someone who was “fit, fashionable and well-groomed?” Now all you need is killer confidence (and good posture goes a long way).

    If you want some inspiration, look to the French who have a term for women who are not conventionally pretty but have style and charm: “jolie-laide” which literally means “pretty-ugly”. Actresses like Sandrine Bonnaire or Charlotte Gainsbourg.

39. Markus Nov 30th 2007 at 09:48 pm 39

    Wild,

    That first girl is gorgeous.

    Evan,

    A lot of posting in this thread. Hope you’re still “mit frau”.

40. Bennie Dec 1st 2007 at 05:29 pm 40

    Tia Maria,

    Have you considered concentrating on shorter men? In a previous column Evan pointed out that this is a vastly underserved market:
    http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/dating-advice-for-short-men-life-is-unfair/
    Since short men are normally overlooked they will probably respond much more favorably to you; what is a 5 to a 6′5 guy might well seem like a 10 to a 5′5 guy.

41. Kat Wilder Dec 1st 2007 at 07:21 pm 41

    I think it’s natural to be attracted to someone who looks good … at first. I’ve chatted up guys who were “hot” and then, well, if they were boring or arrogant or mean-spirited or whatever, that was pretty much the end of that.

    That’s where the online world can put you at a disadvantage (and why so many people post old photos of themselves, thus becoming liars — wonderful way to start a relationship!). If you’re not pretty/handsome or if you are but you’re not photogenic, well, you may not get a first or second or third look. (but if you’re cute and write the most boring, ego-centric and grammatically problematic profile, you will; go figure).

    So I think women (and men) should go about their lives making themselves happy and doing things they love, taking care of their body (for themselves), surrounding themselves with good-hearted people and genuinely liking who they are. Then, I think it would pretty much be a non-issue. They’ll attract a person who wants that (and who would want anything less?) Confidence is sexy.

42. stella Dec 3rd 2007 at 01:43 am 42

    Looks does count I’m sorry to say but it’s a fact. One doesn’t have to be as “hot” as a model or celeb though. In a place where no one knows anybody, what initially attracts you to a certain person? Looks, the attractiveness. Personality comes later. Sometimes I wish we aren’t this way but we are.
    Why women are so vain? Because men made us that way. It’s usually men who leave his wife for a younger or more attractive whore than the other way around…lol

43. Dreamer Dec 3rd 2007 at 06:46 am 43

    @ Cami

    thanks for the great advice! that renewed my hope, thinking of the happy relationships out there with average-looking men and women.

44. Leah Dec 7th 2007 at 01:37 am 44

    From my dating experiences I think this is wrong. It is not all about bodies and trying to live up to airbrushed models that get their stretch marks and cellulite painted away in magazines. Some men go for a good body, some men go for a pretty face, some men want it all. After the initial looks thing, if there’s no personality and intelligence, most men will run a mile.

    I have stretch marks, I have cellulite, and even though I don’t like them, I’m always getting asked out. I’ve been married for 10 years, I have been engaged twice and I’m now in a long term relationship. I still get asked out all the time and I’m not skinny, I’m curvy.. and most men love curves! And most men realise that in life even supermodels get cellulite and stretch marks, and even men get cellulite and stretch marks. It’s just life.

    My best friend is just average looking and she’s a big girl, but she has the most amazing personality. Men swarm round her like flies as soon as she starts talking. She’s now happily married to a very good looking, wealthy man.

    All this hype that men want skinny stick insect supermodels is not true. Most men do not like grinding against someone’s pelvic bone. All the women and young girls who try to starve themselves to death and get eating disorders trying to live up to the impossible media concept of what we should look like, that even the actual models do not look like, cause their airbrushed. All the women who go through painful plastic surgery and even die from it.

    Ladies, there is not much to making a man become attracted to you. It is all mental.. what you think of yourself, how you carry yourself, make yourself look pretty without going to extremes, a little confidence and then just be yourself. Half the guys you will meet will be shallow, but then again do you really want to be with a shallow guy? But the other half of the guys will be blown away by you. And once their hooked you can have them eating out of your hand.

    These days it’s not all about men trading in their wives/partners for younger models… it’s women trading in their husbands/partners for toy boys!

    Women are in their prime in their 30’s/40’s, men are past it by 25.. so Ladies go and get yourself a toy boy! Enjoy the journey and remember you never know what’s round the corner.. it might even be your very own toy boy

45. hunter Dec 8th 2007 at 06:26 pm 45

    to Leah,

    I like the way you talk, tell these women to get a boy toy, it is a common practice in Europe. Often times I meet lonely, bitchy, women, whom, I wish would find a partner…..Just remember,….you don’t marry boy toys….

46. Having sex Dec 11th 2007 at 11:32 pm 46

    Hi,

    Speed dating is without doubt an unbeatable opportunity to have fun, expand your social circle and maybe even meet a potential partner. Striking a healthy balance between a fear of and a desire for an intimate relationship can be very difficult. Be willing to be open to meeting new people. You want to make sure to meet in a safe place.

47. anonymous Dec 12th 2007 at 10:07 am 47

    A recently published book, Microtrends, states (on page 9) that between 2002 and 2005, the percentage of men interested in dating women 5 or more years older than they on Match.com increased 44 percent. So, you don’t have to be 20-something. If you are average looking, just take up a fitness routine, let people around you know you are single and looking. Dress well/tastefully for your age (but don’t dress frumpy!). Most of all, have a positive attitude about dating. Accentuate your positive attributes. Raise the bar for theirs. Picky women are also perceived by men as being more desirable. The fact that you are picky communicates to them that you have other options.

    Hunter: actually, more and more women are marrying their “boy toys”. The numbers of couples in the USA where the wife is significantly (6 or more years) older than her husband, has increased dramatically since 1997. Microtrends has a chart on page 8 that proves this.

    Our population is aging. It is creating a surplus of single women in their 60s who are siphoning off available single men in their 50s — creating a surplus of single women in their 50s who date 40-something men, creating a surplus of 40-something women who date 30 something men (my 48 year old friend gets more dates with men my age, 39, than I do!!), creating a surplus of 30 something women who now date 20 somethings (I had a 20 year old guy with a crush on me at the office, but he was just too unreliable, or I might have considered it…). I think the trend may not be as pronounced in Los Angeles because your population is not aging as quickly there. In the fastest-aging states (such as the one where I live) the tipping point has been reached. I have noticed in the last 10 years a lot more coworkers now date and marry younger men. 10 years ago, there was only one woman at the office who married a guy 5 years younger than she was and she was a little embarassed to talk about it. Now, in a office where there are 8 to 10 women, I only know one who is dating or married to someone older. Think about that. The trend is starting in the older states, but if your state’s average age is gradually getting older you will start to see it there soon too…. After all, why are so many 20 something teachers now getting in trouble and making the news all the time for seducing their teenaged male students? because the younger-man taboo is GONE ladies.

48. Lyn Dec 12th 2007 at 10:10 pm 48

    I think that is about attitude, I have seen a lot of average looking ladies with really hot guys, in awesome relationships. I think that when a woman is confident of who she is, what she wants…when she compliments herself, by herself, she will ultimately attract men, even if she is not a bombshell. I think .. and I may be wrong …. that you have adopted a “guys prefer bombshells, and I am not one” attitude, that is only creating am invisible barrier between you and men. I think, that if you assert yourself, and see how unique and beautiful you are inside and out, and work on yourself, to be the best that you can be, you will see yourself outshine many women around you, and so will men. I think that physical attraction is only part of it, the “chemistry” you put out — is the rest. All the best to you! =)

49. Jena Dec 17th 2007 at 02:13 am 49

    For f sakes. Look around. Do any of you (Other than the odd rich bloke with young women which is rarer than people hype ito ut to be) see average loking men with dates lining up. I’m sick of women usingy the whole men are shallow excuse to explain why they cant get or keep a man. I’m average loking and Ii get pestered for dates and pursued all the time! I also find not being a doormat helps keep the equality in a relationship at even ground. Most average looking men get rejected consistently and have a hard time finding a mate to. Oof course there never allowed to say women are shallow. No. As for the guy who said he’s ashamed of how shallow he was when he was young. Most guys still dont seem to realise they get rejected because of there looks women just tend to lie to make the guy feel better and not wanting to be mean. Most women I know always sectratly wnat there bf’s hott best friend and feel bored with there mr average bf’s but for some reason we feel the need to go on about it much less than guy’s. I’ve always wondered why guys feel the need to proclaim how shallow they are all the time when everyone aleady knows and who cares? Itas almost as if its an initiation into manhood to not just feel shallow thoughts like all humans due but to loudly proclaim them?

50. m Dec 17th 2007 at 02:02 pm 50

    Women have a point when they say that men care about superficial things like a woman’s looks, but I have a feeling that women themselves care a lot about other women’s looks too.

    Women I’ve known have repeatedly made disparaging comments about other women’s looks. Often these comments come completely out of the blue. Once when I told an ex-girlfriend that I was dating someone new the ex-girlfriend immediately smilingly asked, “is she pretty?” (the ex-gf had never been shallow before)

    God, the extent to which some men don’t get it is astounding.

    Women care about other women’s looks because of the thing men constantly rant on about: COMPETITION.

    And what might women be competing for, you ask?

    THE ATTENTION OF MEN.

    Evan, the response you gave Cami is a PR-based, well-structured wimp-out. Congratulations on talking without saying anything.

    How is the OP supposed to “not give up hope”, short of additional plastic surgery and starvation diets, if she’s not getting any concrete response to her question?

    If she’s not looking for specific, concrete advice, why would she ask the question in the first place? Do you think women don’t notice when you don’t actually answer the question posed?

    The level of patronization is staggering.

51. m Dec 17th 2007 at 02:09 pm 51

    Tia Maria,

    Have you considered concentrating on shorter men? In a previous column Evan pointed out that this is a vastly underserved market:
    http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/dating-advice-for-short-men-life-is-unfair/
    Since short men are normally overlooked they will probably respond much more favorably to you; what is a 5 to a 6′5 guy might well seem like a 10 to a 5′5 guy.

    Um. no.

    If you notice, as you will if you read the thread, short men still think they are entitled to that size 00 blond supermodel.

    (Also, she has to be an actual working supermodel — with contracts and endorsements — as opposed to just a pretty girl, so the man won’t feel like he’s first judged “by his money” even though he first judges a woman “by her looks”. Puke.)

52. Matt Dec 20th 2007 at 05:53 am 52

    Women can over time grow accustomed to an ugly guy but for men its not nearly as easy. Its possible for a guy to ‘get it out of his system’ per se and kind of do all the things he wants to then settle for a more sensible women who is not as attractive. Maybe you’ll find that guy but more then likely you will either need to lower your standards, find a new dating pool or focus on health. From what I’ve seen theres a lot of permeated myths and mis-information about dieting in womens popular lit.

53. verbosity Dec 21st 2007 at 09:58 am 53

    Where are average women left if men only want hot women? I’m not so sure I agree with the premise. That said, and I am speaking in generalities (as the questions is), there are plenty of opportunities.

    A main premise is that men generally want the best looking girl they can find as an initial attraction. That said, it begs the question, “What are you doing to maximize that outer packaging?” No one is saying you need to be 5′5″ and no more than 115. The issue is what you do to maximize what you have. Flattering haircut? Flattering clothing? Do you work out? Watch diet? I offer these previous 2 questions to to indicate that someone needs to be a certain size. It is meant to show there can be a difference between size zero and far larger than you were naturally meant to be.

    Please do not cast stones and take the haughty approach that men shouldn’t care about such things. The reality is they do. Refusing to accept reality is not only insane, it will not lead to any positive growth.

    Now with that said, let me also say that men who are healthier emotionally and mentally do not focus simply on hot chicks. Here in Scottsdale, which is ground zero for fake boobs, lips, botox, fake tans, huge french manicures and all of the other caricature-like traits, increasing numbers of men are looking, nay, begging for women who are real, emotionally and physically. Therefore, it would seem Tia-Maria’s preferred demographic is looking for her also.

    Most men I have spoken with have not had good, healthy experiences with ‘hot chicks’ (defined here in preceding paragraph).

    However, physical attraction is a must. The simplest point is not to complain that ‘men only want a certain type” and that men need to change. Insisting the world change to suit your belief is unreasonable. However, Tia-Maria can do an honest assessment about her own situation for areas of realistic improvement, and act upon them.

    Also keep in mind that what I’m saying is that good, healthy (emotionally) men, whom Tia-Maria presumably wants, are looking for more than a hot piece of you-know-what. By the same token, I would also think she should be happy she isn’t wasting time with men who only want a hottie.

    My $0.02

54. verbosity Dec 21st 2007 at 09:59 am 54

    I meant to write

    “I offer these previous 2 questions NOT to indicate that someone needs to be a certain size. It is meant to show there can be a difference between size zero and far larger than you were naturally meant to be.”

    Kinda changes the sentence, no?

55. Lisa Dec 21st 2007 at 03:28 pm 55

    This post blows, Evan. Your answer was a total cop out. Blah, blah, blah, yet you had no advice other than not giving up hope even though you pretty much told her not to expect any men to give her a second look because they’re all jerks who only go for hot chicks.

56. m Dec 21st 2007 at 05:56 pm 56

    “This post blows, Evan. Your answer was a total cop out. Blah, blah, blah, yet you had no advice other than not giving up hope even though you pretty much told her not to expect any men to give her a second look because they’re all jerks who only go for hot chicks.”

    Which goes right back to what verbosity was pissing and moaning about 2 posts above me concerning fake blonde, boobs, tans, etc.

    Do you men HONESTLY believe that a woman would go through the physical hell and expense of, say, a boob job, if on some level she hadn’t been browbeaten into believing it was WHAT MEN WANTED???

    So how was she ever supposed to “get a man” if she didn’t give them “what they want”???

    Not to mention the men whose eyeballs I’ve seen fall out of their heads and the tongues to the ground slavering over these women??

    The cognitive dissonance is staggering.

    Staggering.

57. JuJu Dec 22nd 2007 at 12:14 pm 57

    Matt:
    “Women can over time grow accustomed to an ugly guy but for men its not nearly as easy.”

    That is so untrue!

    And how is this opinion still so prevalent, that women don’t care about men’s looks? Each time I hear about it, it astonishes me.

    You have to realize, in the context of human history, it really hasn’t been that long that women are able to -choose- a mate. What is it, like, the last 50-75 years, tops?

58. JuJu Dec 23rd 2007 at 12:24 am 58

    By the way, on the subject of self-help:

    I was browsing through these various love & dating self-help books on Amazon the other day, and it amazed me (although it’s hardly a revelation of some sort) how all the books directed at women are about KEEPING a man, while by far most books for men in this genre are about getting a “hot” woman into bed, nothing beyond that. Whereas it is precisely the men who require guidance in this area so sorely.

    My ex-husband, who was insanely in love with me, lost me in part because he never realized the importance of working on a relationship. And it’s only men who may not see a break-up or divorce coming (interesting Mars vs. Venus article: http://men.msn.com/articlebl.aspx?cp-documentid=5873934&GT1=10715) Makes one think.

59. Lyall Dec 24th 2007 at 01:05 am 59

    Ron,

    Women are instinctually attracted to social status. This is as hard wired as men’s attraction to beauty. Call it shallow if you will. I call it bloody efficient. Evolution has wired us that way and for the most part it succeeds in passing on the best genes.

    While beauty is fairly unambiguous, what garners ’social status’ is highly context dependent. In parts of the US, status is strongly tied to the amount of money a person makes. And hence women are interested in this. This isn’t shallow, it’s instinctual.

    I live in New Zealand which is culturally very different. I make very good money but I’m not particularly physically attractive and are only 5′7” and consequently have always struggled to attract women. I’m 25yo, confident, articulate, well educated, in decent shape, musical, and pretty social, but still get bugger all action and always have. I think a big part of this is that money, at least in my age/peer group, is not really a source of status and status has more to do with looks & social value from doing cool stuff and knowing heaps of cool people. And the people that fit into that category usually don’t make much money because they have and continue to spend most of their time partying/socialising/traveling etc and less time working/studying etc.

    I have a number of friends who are lawyers, bankers, doctors, etc that make great money and are actually really cool guys, but if they are average lookers and haven’t had much experience with women, they get basically nothing.

    As a guy I know has said before, I’ve never met a women that doesn’t care about what a man looks like. And height is often more important than looks. Women forget this, but height is actually an even more fixed variable than looks and if you’re a short guy you’re pretty much stuffed. Women will winge about guys being focused only on looks but then say they need a tall guy in the next breath.

    Looks are also pretty important for a guy so that he starts getting lots of experience with women from a young age. Without getting that experience, as soon as you get out of a school/college context it is actually very difficult for these types of men to meet women in bars/clubs etc if they haven’t had enough experience to have developed confidence/understanding with women.

    And I think women significantly underestimate how many men suffer from loneliness for large portions of their youth. And its usually the quite decent guys that are decidedly not shallow. It is absolutely a fact that at least up until the early 20s, that 20% of the guys screw 80% of the women and most guys go without.

60. Lyall Dec 24th 2007 at 01:13 am 60

    PS somebody mentioned that they were astonished at their drop in attractiveness after they left college. As I said in my first post, social status is context dependent. At college it was highly dependent on looks/height and hence you did well. It sounds like the social environment you are currently in has changed and money has become an important element of status.

    That sucks man, but that’s life. I’m in the opposite situation – make good money but I’m short and have below-average looks and got squat all through college. I still get squat though but what can you do? People are gifted different levels of sexual attractiveness (both men and women) and if you’ve lucked out you can’t really do anything about it.

    Best just to get on with your life and develop friendships, hobbies, your career, read a book, play sport, go to the gym, blog, and work on developing a fulfilling life without a partner as best you can. That’s what I do.

61. Tia-Maria Dec 25th 2007 at 01:54 pm 61

    I asked the original question and many of the responses — including Evan’s — didn’t really address the heart of my question. I do acknowledge that it’s probably my fault because there actually were lots of questions to focus on. What I really wanted to know was why are women who seek dating advice told to compromise on what they want and men really aren’t. Men who seek dating advice often want to date and bed really hot women. That’s what dating experts show them how to do — regardless of what they look like.

    So many of the replies have stressed how women want tall men or rich men or good looking men. Yes, that’s all true, BUT if a woman goes to a dating expert, she is told to forget all that — go for short men; go for men who have a passion, but perhaps not lots of money; go for an average looking guy who wil treat you well. (News flash — average looking guys, as a whole, don’t treat women any better than good looking guys. Good men, respectful men — average or hot — treat women well. Appearance has NOTHING to do with how people treat other people. ) Women are always told to compromise and men aren’t. Where is the dating expert who is going to show average women how to get a tall, rich, hot looking man who is going to treat her well?

    I want to address the people who felt that based on my question, I must be lacking in confidence. Please know that I am not lacking in confidence. In fact, I think true confidence is knowing what you are and what you are not. Whether people want to admit it or not, “confidence” that doesn’t have some external validation is not confidence, it’s delusion. Women who are 10’s are treated differently from women who are 5’s. Plain and simple. We all know people who think they are so hot, but really aren’t. Don’t we feel sorry for them? Don’t some of you — not me– even make fun of them? So, the fact that I said I am not a bombshell or knock out, does not mean that I lack confidence. I know what my best assets are and I work them to my advantage. Honesty and self awareness is confidence – -pretending or wanting to be something you are not is sad.

62. gonzo Dec 25th 2007 at 06:10 pm 62

    Folks: life is not fair, I pretty much gave up this game years ago. I’m 5′ 6 3/4″ and am now 53 and care for an aging parent, which pretty much kills any chances I’ll have for the rest of my days.

    I know I’ll never wind up with a Jessica Simpson and have accepted the fact, albeit with a certain sadness, but hey, at least I have a job. It may not be a nice fact, but as the Buck Turgidson character said in the Peter Sellers movie “Dr. Strangelove”: “the truth is not always a pleasant thing.”

    This became evident when I was at a brunch one day with a married couple who were friends of mine. They were having me meet a ‘friend’ of theirs, an event I always dreaded. We got to the spot early. Every time a woman I found attractive walked in I’d whisper “Is that her?”

    …after a few women had entered the male of the couple asked: “What exactly are you expecting?” I looked around, saw a table with some cute women, nodded my head toward them and said ” Well, someone like one of them?”

    The guy glanced over, looked at them, then at me, then said something that pretty much destroyed any optimism I had: “I think you’re being unrealistic”. I haven’t seen them in years, literally.

    Years later, a female friend, who was married to another friend of mine, was out at a comedy club at which I was attending. We bumped into each other by accident. Chats began with her and her friends, all women, who were having a ‘girls night out’. 3 of them put their heads together and looked at me. I KNEW what was coming. To make a long story short they mentioned this ‘available’ friend of theirs. I looked around the group and my eyes settled on this cute little women who amongst them.

    “Her?” I inquired, expecting negative responses.

    One of the group glanced around me. She saw to whom I was referring then gave me this Evil Eye and said, scornfully, “It FIGURES, you like the skinny, pretty one with the big boobs”. (her words exactly)

    When you find out what your friends think of you, it can really be painful.

    Jena: use spellcheck.

63. hunter Dec 27th 2007 at 06:29 pm 63

    to tia maria,

    I don’t think I can answer your question, either…..but I would continue to ask, other dating experts, or other people,…I am almost sure,…….. you will find someone that will answer your question, fully…

64. hunter Dec 27th 2007 at 06:31 pm 64

    to a&v,

    I have heard good looking women say,(some in their late 50’s) that, they wouldn’t dance with an unattractive, man, much less, date him….

65. cp Jan 15th 2008 at 12:23 pm 65

    I’ve noticed it is mostly men that say “women dont care about men’s looks as much”

    flat out wrong. I am sooo tired of this “men are visual creatures” (barf)

    Women are waaay more visual. Look around, men don’t even notice most of the stuff women notice (visually speaking). We notice every little detial (with our EYES).

    It is true that women seem to mature faster and learn to compromise or accept less than they know they are worth because maybe they just want to be in a relationship, and they would rather be secure than with some idiot that will eventually cheat on them to prove his man-hood to himself.

    I do get incredibly annoyed myself when really ugly and fat guys contact me via the internet.

    Women have a much better clue about what “league” they are in.

    Am I supposed to feel hopeful? I dont. I’m not worried about attracting men. I am afraid I will never truly like one cause now I think they are all stupid idiots that think we don’t care what they look like as long as they make money, no matter what they do for a living or what they think or feel.

    not that it matters…but fyi, most women I know, including me want to know what you do for a living because that is part of who you are…and what makes you interesting to talk to, and to see if there is anything BESIDES money, sex, or ego close to your heart.

    I’m so depressed…

66. verbosity Jan 15th 2008 at 02:42 pm 66

    Interesting replies all. I am sorry much of what was said does not assuage Tia-Maria’s concerns. That said, I think we do have to look at certain things, perhaps some of them misconceptions, perhaps not…

    About men – We are not ‘wired’ to think a certain type of woman is hot, like a size zero blonde with 34c’s. If you look at history, the ‘hotties’ 300 years ago (or around them – shoot me if I’m off by a century or so) were Rubenesque, coming from the paintings of the same period depicting women who today would be called morbidly obese. Men are trained and socialized to think the girls with protruding pelvic bones, showing ribs, and fake boobs are ‘hot.’

    About women (disclaimer: these are my perceptions) – I think it’s fair to say women are equally as visual as men. However, I think it’s equally as fair to say they are far more willing to compromise on a man’s looks when he can provide them security (ie. – money). I also think that women are trained to compromise less, meaning they can get money and looks (let’s face it – they can. We have to chase them). Before I get howls of protest, there have been surveys on the matter (including what hunter said above) that indicate this. Also, one need only look at Match to see how many women seek men who make 2x (or more) what they make. So to say women do not look at wallet is inaccurate and disingenuous. I disagree with cp’s sentiment that men are stupid idiots who think women don’t care about looks, only money (my paraphrase). It sounds as though she’s frustrated.

    I’ve oversimplified the above somewhat, but I hope readers see where I am coming from. Brad Pitt can get most any woman because he’s good-looking, famous, AND rich. Angelina Jolie can get most any man because she’s hot. Period. Focusing only on looks and money leads to shallow, poor outcomes.

    Here’s what I think… both sexes often have unreasonable expectations for their mates and themselves, and do little to define the character traits they really want and need to be happy long term. It seems more important to define those personality characteristics that will make you happy outside of looks and money.

    So boys, listen to the women who wish you wouldn’t look so much at the Pam Andersons. They have a point. You may be ignoring many other traits that will make you happy.

    Ladies, listen to the men when they point out that all too many of you seem overly interested in their money, not them as people. Ignoring this valid complaint, dismissing it, and pretending it doesn’t exist, only gives men more reason to focus only on your looks since they know you are after his money.

    And yes, there are people (good-looking) out there who are not disproportionally focused on swimsuit looks and money. Keep the faith.

67. Michael Ejercito Feb 16th 2008 at 11:08 am 67

    “Speed dating is without doubt an unbeatable opportunity to have fun, expand your social circle and maybe even meet a potential partner.”

    This is true; and you get to see other people as they are , not in a touched-up, airbrushed photograph you would find in magazines.

68. Michael Ejercito Feb 16th 2008 at 11:16 am 68

    Half of the women that I come across are attractive. Excluding the fat ones, this would rise to four-fifths.

69. Lisa Feb 18th 2008 at 11:28 am 69

    I think men are more shallow and cruel than women … being judged on your looks starts when you are very young.. and hurts . by the time you are a preteen or teen you may have a very low self esteem and its due to men and boys. Personally I dont care how rich a man is I have to consider him attactive to look at or I dont want him touching me . I dont mean he has to be perfect and beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I have to like what I see. I cant understand how women can marry a rich ugly older man and go on to have a bunch of very ugly children lol. I would be willing to bet dollars to donuts those women all have hot young lovers ( no doubt attracted to their money ) and the whole vicious circle starts all over again.

    Lisa

70. starthrower Feb 19th 2008 at 06:47 pm 70

    First-I-apologize-for-the-hyphens….my-spacebar-doesn’t-work.

    Second-after-reading-all-of-the-posts-I-wonder-how-men-and-women-form-couples-at-all.

71. Michele Feb 20th 2008 at 05:13 pm 71

    Although I didn’t read each and every word that each and ever person wrote, I did adequately speed read and one thought came to mind…so many seem to make very broad generalizations about both women a/o men. And some posts are borderline hostile (for whatever reason).

    Success in any venue is predicated upon attitude. Success is learned from experience and experience comes from making mistakes – at least that’s my learned philosophy.

    Case in point…met a man this afternoon for lunch. We have been talking for about two weeks and he seemed miffed that I had to change our date from yesterday to today (pardon me, I do work for a living). Our conversations have been pleasant but something told me that he was not the one (whoever that might be). Why I agreed to lunch was simply because I am an eternal optimist and have found that my instincts are not always correct.

    That said in his case my instincts were correct. Somewhat nice guy and all, but could I see myself spending any amount of time with him, in the future, NO. Furthermore he’s not quite a mature Adonis but darn close. He obviously was telling the truth when he mentioned going to a gym 4 days a week. And he’s immaculate as well as a sharp dresser with incredibly nice teeth, a glowing smile and 6′4″ tall.

    So what went wrong…his manners for one when he shoved french fries into his mouth with his fingers – all he talked about was his kids and himself – he failed to make much eye contact, too. Just not my type.

    So what do I do? Make a general statement that all good looking tall men are less than desirable or simply carry on and consider our “date” yet another tribute to my sometimes iffy intuition. I will go with the latter.

    And on that note, while driving home received a call from a man who is not even close to being as “sharp” as Mr. Almost Adonis. We have been casually dating for the past few months. And we are going to see each other on Friday evening. I am actually excited about seeing him because we spend most of our dates laughing, holding hands and feeling like the World is ours for the moments we spend. Would I take a second look at him under other circumstances — NO.

    As for my appearance…am certainly not chopped liver and still turn a head or two for being a member of the baby boomer generation. Am told I am a combo of good genes and healthy living.

    Good Luck gals and guys. Keep your hearts open!

72. Brady Feb 26th 2008 at 07:51 am 72

    As a handsome,54-year-old rookie heavy metal drummer/lyricist/singer
    who’s 100% lad,I’m only interested in buxom blondes!!!!!!(34D-42D
    bra size,lasses!!!!!!)

73. m Feb 26th 2008 at 12:49 pm 73

    “Ladies, listen to the men when they point out that all too many of you seem overly interested in their money, not them as people.”

    *sigh*

    Men, listen to the WOMEN when they point out that all too many of you seem overly interested in their looks, not them as people.

74. m Feb 26th 2008 at 12:51 pm 74

    And one more thing, just because I’m curious and this excuse is used so frequently.

    If men are such visual creatures, why can’t you see what’s in the refrigerator, before asking your mate/spouse/S.O. where it is, WHEN IT’S RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU?!?

75. m Feb 26th 2008 at 12:57 pm 75

    And then of course, like the OP mentioned yet again, there’s this:

    “What I really wanted to know was why are women who seek dating advice told to compromise on what they want and men really aren’t.”

    *crickets from the advice columnist (others as well as the one spotlighted here)*

    *crickets from loud opinionated male commenters*

76. Selena Feb 27th 2008 at 08:16 am 76

    M,
    Perhaps dating experts don’t advise men to compromise, or “settle” because they know doing so will fall on deaf ears. A man “wants what he wants” afterall. He can’t help it. Poor soul.

    Maybe it’s that there are more women out there who really want a LTR, and more men who just want to serially pursue tall, buxom, blue-eyed, blondes–heck with a LTR!

77. verbosity Feb 27th 2008 at 10:34 am 77

    Hmmmm,

    1. “Men, listen to the WOMEN when they point out that all too many of you seem overly interested in their looks, not them as people.”

    2. “And then of course, like the OP mentioned yet again, there’s this:

    “What I really wanted to know was why are women who seek dating advice told to compromise on what they want and men really aren’t.”

    *crickets from the advice columnist (others as well as the one spotlighted here)*

    *crickets from loud opinionated male commenters*”

    Answers –

    1. You forgot about our looks, also. Men need to be hot, have money & have a great personality. All else being equal, the more ladies emphasize money versus looks, the more men will emphasize her looks. I wonder how ladies would feel having the same criteria (looks + personality+ money) applied to them…Right now, most men have to bring all 3 for a woman to feel she’s not ‘compromising.’ Women need only to bring 2 of the 3. They should be thankful.

    2. Because, generally speaking, men are always the ones compromising & reacting to women’s ever-changing desires. Men also generally accept demonization for simply being men (all men just want sex, men are pigs), thereby making the ultimate compromise. Such an imbalance is less than ideal. I recall Evan wrote somewhere “You don’t like to get hit on in public, you don’t want to date online and you don’t want to be set up on blind dates. Tell us if sending messenger pigeons is an appropriate way of courting. Because if it is, we’re all over it.”

    Also consider sex…women in general control this. With the number of unfounded sex accusations that make news (Kobe Bryant, John McCain, Clarence Thomas), it’s no wonder men with an ounce of sense do not try to drive, let alone co-pilot that car. It’s not worth the risk (jail, reputation, etc.)

    Men compromise all the time regarding looks. Yes, we’d love supermodel X, but we’ll take you. Just as you would love Brad Pitt but compromise for us.

    For men, it’s generally a never-ending hopscotch game of reacting to what she wants….

    Women – “I want someone sensitive, caring & nurturing”
    Men – “I am sensitive, caring & nurturing”
    Woman – “I’m tired of all of these wimpy nice guys. I want real men”
    Men – “Me, Tarzan. You, Jane”

    I trust readers can see where I’m going with the above…So far, it seems as if controlling the board, the dice, and the rules doesn’t make you happy, then perhaps you should adjust your expectations. It’s all you can control, no?

78. m Feb 27th 2008 at 02:42 pm 78

    “For men, it’s generally a never-ending hopscotch game of reacting to what she wants….”

    Poor pubby wubby wubby verbosity.

    I’ll call you a waaaaaaahhmmbulance.

    Men are, frequently, NO different in the capacity you describe.

    I will give you a small break because my guess is that you are heterosexual and therefore do not experience intimate relationships with men with great regularity.

    So perhaps a course of empathy might be in order.

    However, until such time as you take and pass such class successfully?

    STOP. WHINING.

    Women are not X-Boxes. There are no absolute rules that will work for EVERY woman across the board.

    Why? Because we are all different people! *gasp* *shock*

    Women, for the most part, learn to adapt to the fact that what worked in one relationship just might not work in the next one.

    If your infinitesimal brain can’t cope with that, you might want to commit to BEING SINGLE!!

    Oh, wait — you already did that in an earlier comment in an earlier post, didn’t you?

    :rolleyes:

79. question for verbosity Feb 27th 2008 at 08:08 pm 79

    Perhaps you are right about how women unfairly expect men to be breadwinners on top of being good looking & sociable. But as Evan says, life is unfair and you can’t change others. What do you hope women will do in response to your grievances?

    Also, I have to wonder, with all due respect, if you don’t earn a lot of money. The reason I ask is because your primary complaint about women is that they care too much about men’s earnings. It seems likely to me that no one would complain about the rules of the game if they were winning at it, which leads me to think perhaps you’re not. Is that true? Do you believe women won’t go out with you because you don’t make enough?

    While we’re at it, I’m curious to know whether or not you’re divorced, verbosity. It helps to know what life experiences are informing people’s perspectives.

80. starthrower Feb 28th 2008 at 06:39 am 80

    i-have-a-dream…..i-have-a-dream-that-one-day-dates-will-not-be-judged-on-their-bust-to-waist-to-hip-ratio-or-their-wallet-and-bank-account-but-on-the-content-of-their-character-and-the-love-in-their-hearts…

81. starthrower Feb 28th 2008 at 07:20 am 81

    Evan-I-don’t-know-if-you-could-agree-with-my-line-of-thinking-but-it-seems-we-get-caught-up-in-these-silly-little-dramas-over-dating-that-we-forget-how-to-be-good-to-each-other….we-have-people-getting-blown-up-in-the-Middle-East,-crazed-gunman-shooting-up-whoever-they-can-point-a-gun-at-and-people-homeless-and-starving…We-think-we’re-having-a-bad-day-if-our-girlfriend-isn’t-a-busty-blonde-or-our-guy-earns-minimum-wage-at-the-Safeway…we-are-shallow-little-people…some-people-are-just-trying-to-figure-out-how-they-will-eat-that-day…love-is-supposed-to-be-safe-harbor-from-the-world’s-insanity.

    Ok-rant-over

82. verbosity Feb 28th 2008 at 07:27 am 82

    question,

    I find it interesting how people, including yourself, love to try and psychoanalyze me for the points I bring up. Curious how you, M and others in particular, fail to respond to the points raised. You may not like the points, but that does not invalidate the issue I raise. If you do wish to question WHAT I raise, fine. By all means do so. I’m not going to respond to insipid fishing expedition questions.

    M, Sweeite…

    I noticed no rebuttal regarding the issues of sex, Evan’s quote or the look-personality-money point above, the bulk of what I wrote. Unsurprising. Try and use that positive outlook of yours to try and have a positive discussion regarding those topics. Perhaps that simply isn’t possible with you, is it?

83. Michael Ejercito Feb 28th 2008 at 07:28 am 83

    Men, listen to the WOMEN when they point out that all too many of you seem overly interested in their looks, not them as people.

    That depends on whether or not women have something besides their looks.

84. verbosity Feb 28th 2008 at 09:04 am 84

    Kudos, Starthrower.

85. JerseyGirl Feb 28th 2008 at 09:37 am 85

    Maybe the real answer is that you just can’t ever win with men. After reading the article and the responses to it, that is exactly how it seems. If men want the hottest women around maybe they are better of snuggling up with their Playboys. Since that is obivously what men want and anything less then that is settling to men. Answer: If you are an average girl you might end up with a man but he will always be wishing for the 10 and that is the best you can expect from him. They arne’t kidding when they say it’s a man’s world.

86. question for verbosity Feb 28th 2008 at 10:55 am 86

    That’s fine if you don’t wish to answer questions about your personal life. You take a very strong stance against women in a lot of posts, and so it helps to know where you’re coming from. I still find it unlikely that you’d be complaining about women’s attention to money if money weren’t a problem for you.

    That aside, you still didn’t respond to my question, which was, given that we all know life is unfair, “What do you hope women will do in response to your grievances?”

    Also, are you positing that men’s preoccupation with looks is a direct result of women’s preoccupation with men’s wealth? You seem to be saying women deserve the shallow standards of men BECAUSE they themselves have shallow standards concerning men’s wallets. I thought men were just more visual.

    Finally, are you absolutely certain that most modern women insist on the “men-pay” model? Are you speaking from statistical evidence or from your own personal experience?

87. verbosity Feb 28th 2008 at 11:25 am 87

    question for verbosity wrote:

    “Perhaps you are right about how women unfairly expect men to be breadwinners on top of being good looking & sociable. But as Evan says, life is unfair and you can’t change others. What do you hope women will do in response to your grievances?”

    First, they are not grievances, so do not try to infer that I’m somehow whining. They are the reality of the situation, like it or not. Secondly, I do not care what women (or men) do after reading about my view and other men’s similar views on the subjects. Some ladies may agree and move one step closer to understanding where many men com from, most I suspect would not. Many men who read mine and similar posts may agree and change their behavior, many not. That is the reality.

    However, my point is simple – that guys should disengage entirely from these women who look to men for what men can give them economically. Focus their energies on themselves & their careers and their personal lives(non-relationship), and if they do seek a relationship with the opposite sex, seek one who agrees with (and practice) the same philosophy.

88. verbosity Feb 28th 2008 at 02:17 pm 88

    question, please see another thread. I’ll repost it here. Apologies to anyone for repetition.

    “question for verbosityFeb 27th 2008 at 07:56 pm 56

    How can you tell the difference between those women who are sincere and the ones who should be avoided because they’re too preoccupied with what they stand to gain economically?

    verbosityFeb 28th 2008 at 07:45 am 57

    question,

    You can tell the differences by watching WHAT they do. When a bill comes to they insist on paying? Do they do the half-assed purse reach? Do they just sit there like Cleopatra while you take care of it? Does she want to go to every high-end restaurant and club in town? With you paying? Does she talk about the trips her ex took her on to Europe/anyplace else? What does she do for work? What is her plan of advancement? If non, be careful. Is she a secretary that knows all high end clubs, restaurants and vacation spots? If she earns good $ (same or more than you) and never offers or insists on paying, you have a good indicator.

    By the way, these questions apply equally for both sexes. I do not understand why, if women can do the same jobs as, and earn the same (if not more than – see Warren Farrell), that either sex should pay the other for their companionship, which is really what we are talking about. I think it’s because those who insist on the inequality (men pay system, all else being equal), don’t like the logical conclusion, that conclusion being tacit prostitution, at least in part. I mean payment for companionship, not necessarily sex. I think this answers women’s oft-repeated complaint that men don’t care about them as people. My answer is that if you insist on being paid for your company, you devalue yourself as a person and cannot reasonably expect someone to therefore care more about you as a person.”

    (End of comment)
    I’d probably add to the above final paragraph something like, “Therefore, if you devalue your personality, all you have left are looks. If that’s all there is left to value, more emphasis will be placed there.”

    “Also, are you positing that men’s preoccupation with looks is a direct result of women’s preoccupation with men’s wealth?” – Yes.

    “You seem to be saying women deserve the shallow standards of men BECAUSE they themselves have shallow standards concerning men’s wallets.” – Yes. Your characterization of men as shallow is unwarranted, and also posits that women somehow are ‘better.’ At least your statement accurately summarizes that both sexes are not seeking the most noble human characteristics, but I do not place the value judgment of ’shallow’ on them.

    The above does not apply to all women or men, but does to an awful lot of them. I say the majority. Others disagree.

    I trust that answers your question.

89. verbosity Feb 28th 2008 at 02:32 pm 89

    “Finally, are you absolutely certain that most modern women insist on the “men-pay” model? Are you speaking from statistical evidence or from your own personal experience?”

    Yes – See Evan’s blog topic re: women who earn more than men for additional info. The main article itself. Also, I referenced a yahoo article that says something like 75% of women said they’d marry for money. I think there’s more in there, though.

90. JerseyGirl Feb 29th 2008 at 08:01 am 90

    Said by Verbosity:

    Men compromise all the time regarding looks. Yes, we’d love supermodel X, but we’ll take you. Just as you would love Brad Pitt but compromise for us.

    —————————————————————————-

    That is the big difference between men adn women. Just because we don’t end up with Brad Pitt doesn’t mean we think we are settling. I am not even attracted to Brad Pitt. And even if there are “hotter” men out there, my man is the hottest one to me. With men, that isn’t the case. They automatically make some nameless girl in a magazine the “ideal” for what they want and say that their own wives/girlfriends are what they “settle” for. If men think they are “settling” so much then men should stick with fantasies about models and curl up with porn at night instead of treating the woman you claim you care about like a “settlement”.

    Men don’t care anyway if they don’t look like Brad Pitt because men aren’t as harshly judged and critized for the way they look. But how many guys here don’t want to be used or valued for their money? Certainly no guy here. Yet women are told that hey “Guy’s want models but they will take you because that’s all they can get and as a woman you should be really happy a man is willing to throw you some table scraps.” Seriously must be a nice world we live in for men.
    —————————————————————————-
    Also said:
    Some ladies may agree and move one step closer to understanding where many men com from, most I suspect would not.
    —————————————————————————-

    I try very hard to understand where men come from but I just don’t get it. To me, what men stand for seems cold, selfish, and takes away from the exact things that women want and want to feel from men.

    I in turn, wish men would take a step closer to try to be more understanding of where women come from, but like you, I also suspect many men don’t wish to do this. And like you would be pleased if women were more understanding, women would be too if the reverse happend. It is a two way street.

91. verbosity Feb 29th 2008 at 09:23 am 91

    Jerseygirl,

    I trust you’ve read previous posts, not just by me. I think many men have made clear that they are far more willing to trade (hot chick of the moment)’s looks for a great personality. Men in general do not care what women earn, so we do not consider that as a necessary component. (Because hey, we are supposed to pay for everything, right?) Keep in mind we are talking about having a LTR with the person in question, not whether we’d like to bang them. That is the distinction. We understand the reality is that (pinup girl of the month), while hot, is probably far less likely to have a good personality.

    However, as I said above, women simply need to bring looks & personality to the party. Men need to bring looks, personality & money to the party. What I gather from your post is that you lament that you feel men only value looks. I do not feel that women value only money, but they place a far higher value on it than a man’s looks and certainly personality. Mathematically speaking, men need to bring more to the party. (looks + personality +money). I think women who bring less to the party (looks + personality) should not complain.

    Secondly, on the subject of understanding the opposite sex, if women in general cannot understand men’s valid point about the preoccupation women have with what men can do for them economically speaking, there’s nothing I can do to help them on that front. I would note that this economic preoccupation in effect disregards them as people…see the problem?

    The complaint women have is that we overvalue their looks and ignore them as people. Same problem, no?

    Further, on the subject of understanding, I would like to point out that the main response to mine and similar posts is to try and dehumanize me and men who posit the same (”You’re bitter” “Stop Whining” “You must have been hurt”….blah blah). I have news for you – insulting men who may disagree with you (not you personally) is not an effective communication tactic. It’s no wonder so many ladies who do this have relationship problems. Not to mention it gives men zero incentive to try and understand or work with you. Obviously this doesn’t apply to all women as what you state doesn’t apply to all men, but you can see my point, I trust…

92. JerseyGirl Feb 29th 2008 at 11:17 am 92

    Verbosity:
    I think many men have made clear that they are far more willing to trade (hot chick of the moment)’s looks for a great personality.
    —————————————————————————

    That might be what men say, but that isn’t what men do. I see many men choose a very obvious sexual woman who is not a nice person and have a relationship with her over the “great personality” who is “cute”. What men claim is true, and what men actually do, is very telling and sometimes two different things. That is why you always need to look at a man’s actions before his words.

    I stand by what I said earlier that you didn’t directly address. The big difference between men and women that a woman knows she isn’t getting Brad Pitt but she considers her man better then Brad Pitt. She doesn’t care if she doesn’t end up with Brad Pitt. With men, they know they aren’t getting Jessica Alba, but they “sacrifice” and don’t consider their mate better. They put images like Jessica Alba on a higher pedestal then the own women in their life. It is very disheartening to know this but it is a fact about men and women. Women just appreicate their men more obviously then men value theirs.
    —————————————————————————–
    Verbosity:
    We understand the reality is that (pinup girl of the month), while hot, is probably far less likely to have a good personality
    —————————————————————————-
    But what if she does have a good personality then? Come on. Not every pretty girl has a crappy personality. This statement is said more to “appease” women then for there to be any real truth in it.

    Still goin on the “hot pin-up girls” topic, I guess men can live vicariously on the internet with x amount of “hot pin up girls” and “settle” for their real life woman at the same time to meet a man’s needs similtamiously. Unfortunetly, alot of women end up being short changed in their realtionship and feminity with their men because of this. It isn’t men that pay the price for it, it is women.
    —————————————————————————-
    Verbosity:
    Men need to bring looks, personality & money to the party
    —————————————————————————–

    I disagree with your assesment that men have to bring more to the party. I also disagree that you seem to think women should not voice their hurts and issues with men because *you* think women need to bring less.

    While a man does have a higher standard on what money he brings to the table then a woman, a woman has a higher standard on her looks she brings to the table then a man. I know so many typically unattractive men with pretty women. I don’t know unattractive women with super hot men.

    Men are not held to the same look standard. A woman just wants a guy *she* is attracted to. And that doesn’t equate to looking like a model. Which is why most women don’t sit around masturbating to models and most men do. (Again, unfortunetly for women since they once again get treated with little regard to their needs).

    I know many men that do desire a woman that works and is motiviated and has a steady income. Maybe she isn’t held to the same standard of money a man is, but he certainly isn’t held to the same standard of looks she is. Luckily for men, women don’t sit around masturbating to men with tons of money to the same extent men sit around masturbating to women who are pretty. If we did, image how much more men would be insecure about the money issue then they already are.
    —————————————————————————-
    Verbosity:
    insulting men who may disagree with you (not you personally) is not an effective communication tactic. It’s no wonder so many ladies who do this have relationship problems. Not to mention it gives men zero incentive to try and understand or work with you.
    —————————————————————————–
    The funny thing about communication is both genders think they are the better at communnicating, when neither is a very effective in getting their point across to the opposite gender. And just like certain things give men zero incentive to try and understand women and work with us, the same happens in return. Men don’t always give incentive to help a woman try to understand and work with him.

93. verbosity Feb 29th 2008 at 12:04 pm 93

    Good post, Jerseygirl. It’s good to have respectful discourse on the matter. FYI, some words may be flippant for brevity. No disrespect intended. I hope this won’t be too long. I’m going to abbreviate the quotes, for shortness.

    Jersey Girl wrote
    “That might be what men say, but that isn’t what men do. I see many men choose a very obvious sexual woman who is not a nice person and have a relationship with her over the “great personality” who is “cute”.

    - My answer – It’s based on sex. Men will tolerate a crappy personality for some time as long as the sex is great. (cost/benefit & all) When the crappy personality outweighs the great sex, it’s time to move on.

    Jerseygirl wrote:
    “The big difference between men and women that a woman knows she isn’t getting Brad Pitt but she considers her man better then Brad Pitt. She doesn’t care if she doesn’t end up with Brad Pitt.”

    - My answer – Hooey. The posts above and other threads indicate that women have a clear preference for men who possess looks & money. I mentioned other cited articles that illustrate this (74% marry for $$). I do not doubt that what you posit exists, but it seems clear from the available evidence that’s way in the minority.

    Jerseygirl wrote:
    “Men are not held to the same look standard…..needs).”

    “I know many men that do desire a woman that works and…same standard of looks she is.”

    - My answer – I’ve answered this previously. I’m not going to repeat it. Women in general are more willing to compromise on a guy’s looks if he has $. It’s good you acknowledge the double standard regarding women’s earnings in the dating arena…though I think the crack about masturbation is unwarranted and unfounded.

    I also trust you understand I did not mean you personally in the paragraph that began “insulting men who may disagree . . .”

    Jerseygirl wrote:
    The funny thing about communication . . .work with him.”

    - My answer -Respectfully, your answer is vague. What specific communication to men fail to make? I do not get it. I specifically stated specific communications that cause problems, and have seen none in return. Simply stating that men are not effective doesn’t solve the issue. I admit that there may be some men who are not clear at communicating, but I’ve found that most are. Then again, I don’t date men, lol.

    Good, post again, JG

94. dialog with verbosity Feb 29th 2008 at 01:21 pm 94

    Well, thank you for keeping this blog abuzz with controversy. It certainly stimulates debate.

    My one comment to you is that what you consider “reality” or “fact” or “observations” are perhaps far more subjective than you think. I wouldn’t be so quick as you to conclude that what a tiny fistful of studies suggests equates to the truth.

    Hadley once suggested you were a lawyer. Well, I am a scientist. I’m clearly far more skeptical than when it comes to being convinced that a few numbers represent objective reality.

    Are you certain that you haven’t dated only a SUBSET of women, and that your perceptions of women aren’t limited to the kind of woman you’re attracted to? Absolutely certain?

    Please don’t think I’m trying to insult you with my line of questioning. You’re obviously a deep thinker. I just wonder how often you’ve turned your dizzying intellect on yourself to examine trends in your own thinking.

95. verbosity Feb 29th 2008 at 03:46 pm 95

    dear dialogue,

    “Please don’t think I’m trying to insult you . . . You’re obviously a deep thinker . . .turned your dizzying intellect on yourself . . .”

    You are insulting, but I’ll be so kind as to answer your question anyway.

    My conclusions (which I do not love, by the way) are based upon data that I have seen, in the form of different statistics, surveys and articles. I am open to other conclusions. No one offers any. Curious.

    “I’m clearly far more skeptical than when it comes to being convinced that a few numbers represent objective reality.” By all means, please provide SOME data, ANY data. At least there are a “tiny fistful” of studies for my conclusions.

    As a scientist, I would think that the method of objecting to another’s conclusions is to present evidence that refutes those conclusions in whole or in part. I would think that questioning the scientist’s person or fishing for information about his personal life is not accepted practice…

    Perhaps most people simply don’t like the conclusions I’ve drawn for what those conclusions say about themselves.

    And so I’d like to ask the same question back. “Please don’t think I’m trying to insult you with my line of questioning. You’re obviously a deep thinker. I just wonder how often you’ve turned your dizzying intellect on yourself to examine trends in your own thinking.”

96. two.can.play (formerly dialog with verbosity) Feb 29th 2008 at 07:50 pm 96

    Actually it’s perfectly acceptable in the scientific community to first challenge the method by which another arrives at his conclusions. Before I present data to refute anything, it must first be deemed worthy of refuting. Don’t you agree? There are a lot of people out there who make a lot of claims. You couldn’t possibly have the time to address them all, correct?

    And your perception that I have insulted you is perhaps personal projection. I am completely sincere whenm I say you are a deep thinker with a dizzying intelligence. You clearly think deeply on matters, as evidenced by your lengthy posts. And to read the fruits of your intellect is a truly dizzying experience. Therefore, I have born you no insult.

    And if you think I have further insulted you by suggesting you lack the finances to win the affections of the women you’ve pursued, well then you are mistaken there as well. You see, I do not place a value on a person by what’s in his wallet. (I believe you’ve said that’s a good thing) Therefore, for me to suggest you are poor is not a personal attack but a hypothesis to explain why you overly emphasize what you perceive as the female tendency to over-emphasize the pocketbook. By taking my suggestion as an insult, I believe it demonstrates that YOU yourself place a value on what’s in your pocketbook. WHich means you’ve fallen victim to the mentality to which you so strenuously object. For if money were no big deal to you, you would not take my suggestion as a slight.

    If you would allow my personal opinion to enter the discussion, I must say I find you fascinating. Now I don’t have the abundance of free time to devote to this blog as you do (I tend to spend my time on dates with very agreeable companions ), but I shall certainly check in to respond to your titillating posts when time permits!

97. Janne Mar 6th 2008 at 08:06 am 97

    This is by far the most foolish and unintelligent site with “advice” I’ve ever come across…”men are dumb and they only want hot bimbo’s”, thank heaven I live among Danish men with way more substance, strength and lust for adventurous and smart women as opposed to this example of the dark ages! But from what I can tell you just erase women as blind if they don’t agree with you on what men wants and what men are about, and according to you that’s solely hot young girls of the most dumb and stereotyp kinds. It equals setting us (men and women) back 50 years or so, and I will not have that shit in my mailbox ever again. Now I’ll go give the next warm, funny and intelligent man on my way a big hug for not being as shallow as this crap!

98. verbosity Mar 6th 2008 at 10:07 am 98

    Dear Readers,

    If one’s idea of challenging method is to question me and my personal background, it’s nothing more than a fallacious way to turn the focus on me, not the substance of what I said. I grant it is more clever than other posters’ tactics, but the same strategy nonetheless. Funny how still no one proffers any separate evidence to refute what I said.

    By the way, anyone catch the articles regarding how much women lie? Links:
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,334381,00.html
    http://www.nypost.com/seven/03022008/news/regionalnews/miss_leading_100063.htm

    500 women polled (not the largest sample, I grant)..75% lie about money, 60% cheated on spouse, and other examples.

    The reason I bring up these types of items: Balance. Many men are aware of human flaws and openly acknowledge them. Women, generally speaking, act as though they are morally superior beings who never, ever engage in immoral or amoral conduct. They are not superior. Nor are they inferior (though some men would disagree). They are the same, though different.

    As a note to Two.Can…

    I extended you the courtesy of answering your question. I also asked the same question of you that you asked of me. Your answer indicates quite clearly that you must deem something worthy of refuting. Curiously, synonyms for ‘deem worthy’ include patronize, condescend and ‘lower oneself’… With such a vastly superior knowledge, one would think it would be no trouble at all to refute anything I’ve said.

    Additionally, your comments that assert your sincerity, intimate I am ‘projecting,’ ‘lack the finances’ and that I somehow have “fallen victim to the mentality to which you (I) so strenuously object,” remain nothing more than cute little devices to turn this about me, not what I said or the evidence upon which it is based.

    Now, looking at your post as a whole, you have:

    1. Not refuted anything I’ve stated previously;
    2. Ignored my direct question to you;
    3. Patronized me;
    4. Accused me of projection; and
    5. Intimate I am poor.

    I can say more (such as the use of shaming techniques), but why bother? Readers get the point. I extended you the courtesy of answering your sarcastic original question. You insulted me in reply, and extended me no such courtesy by answering my question. So you see, simply by stating you are not insulting when in fact you are, you make my arguments for me. By providing no contradicting evidence, you make my arguments for me. By patronizing me, you make my arguments for me. By trying to shame me, you make my arguments for me. Thank you for that.

    I’m not going to engage Two.can or any other posters in such silly exchanges any longer. They clearly are unproductive.

    Sayonara

99. jonquil Mar 11th 2008 at 01:26 pm 99

    I
    think this article is the perfect counterpoint to verbosity’s over-reliance on studies to make cases for his arguments. I adore the author, Mark Morford, and want to have at least half of his babies.

    ( http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2008/02/01/notes020108.DTL%20 )

100. beverly Apr 18th 2008 at 07:18 am 100

     I never had a boyfriend in highschool.
     In my 6 years of college only one person tried to date me and I married him. In the 19 years of being with my boyfriend then husband of 16 years; no one every flirted with me.
     I have been separated for a year with no ring on my still no flirts or pick ups. I think I am attractive, but men don’t see me has attractive. I smile, try to look open and inviting, still nothing.

101. James Apr 26th 2008 at 09:06 am 101

     Janne not all men are like that , I’ve been with my mate for 32 years and I suppose I’ve been very lucky to have found the right woman the first time out as she found me.
     I’ve seen the wreckage alot of men leave behind them – kids all over with several women . Thing is few people care to travel the love path – its too much me me me me going on to have anything left for a loving relationship. Thats why we see these dating services all over taking advantage of these losers hooking them up with more women to screw over – it goes on and on . thank GOD ‘ I found true love and I maintain it keep it that way for I don’t want to end up like these losers .
     People think thier occupation is who they are – thats a sample of how out to lunch they are. lol

102. Rachel Jun 15th 2008 at 03:59 pm 102

     All men revere beauty, no doubt about that. If any guy said that Jessica Alba wasn’t hot, I would question his sexual preference. That being said, there ARE differing opinions as to what makes us women desirable and beautiful. Some men prefer small, natural breasts over fake 34Ds. Some guys prefer Asians, while others prefer blondes. One of my best friends liked women with big teeth — ask him why, not me. I have met many tall men (over 6 foot 2) who date only very petite women (5 foot 3 and under). And on, and on, and on.

     All women have visual preferences too, and to deny that is pure hypocrisy. Hence, we see the advantages for tall men. He can have an average face and a mediocre salary if he’s six-four, but the beautiful-faced and totally ripped M.D. who’s five-four won’t get the time of day from many ladies. At least not in the very strange world of online dating. Maybe if you met both guys at the supermarket, it would be a different story.

     The way I see it, a lot of women overlook the Beauty thing for a mate if the guy has other attributes because they place more value on making a lifelong connection. Men are pre-programmed to spread the seed and don’t view things in the same way.

103. hunter Jun 15th 2008 at 06:07 pm 103

     To Rachel,

     Those six foot plus men you have met that date short women, do that, because that is what is available. Men will never say you that. There are six foot plus women some where in the world, but, that is a very narrow pool of available single women….

104. hunter Jun 15th 2008 at 06:14 pm 104

     to Rachel,

     I try to date different nationalities, but, I get a much bigger response, if I stay within my ethnicity.

105. Rachel Jun 16th 2008 at 05:37 pm 105

     Hunter:

     I respectfully disagree, from personal observation — it was just one example of the many differing things that guys find attractive, anyway. As I said, some guys like this, others like that — and I hope you’ll agree that a guy can find any number of attributes beautiful and have preferences (height, shape, whatever). At any rate, the six two-plus guys I know get hit on all the time by five foot 10 ladies, but they simply prefer the petite women. If you said it was a psychological thing, or social conditioning, I might agree there. Best wishes to you.

106. hunter Jun 16th 2008 at 07:01 pm 106

     to Rachel,

     Really? Six foot-plus men prefer petite women?….hhhmmmhhh. I have noticed, that petite women try harder/make themselves available/use obvious body language, to get a mans attention….

107. hunter Jun 16th 2008 at 07:03 pm 107

     To Rachel,

     Ask your six foot plus male friends, that are seeing petite women, “who approached who first?” Just out of curiosity….

108. Rachel Jun 16th 2008 at 08:24 pm 108

     Best of luck to you, Hunter.

109. cinnamon Jun 16th 2008 at 09:31 pm 109

     #106
     like we stand on our toes to look him in the eyes?

110. Rachel Jun 17th 2008 at 01:18 am 110

     To Cinnamon:

     Yeah, and it’s so cool when they bend down to gaze back. Plus, we can wear any kind of shoe without towering over the guy. Ah, yes indeed.

111. JerseyGirl Jun 17th 2008 at 02:48 pm 111

     I’m quite petite and get more hit on by taller guys then shorter ones.

112. hunter Jun 17th 2008 at 04:52 pm 112

     To Rachel,

     Thank you..

113. hunter Jun 17th 2008 at 04:55 pm 113

     To cinnamon,

     you’re funny!….he, he, he,

114. The Reverend Terence Fformby-Smythe Jun 17th 2008 at 06:23 pm 114

     I wonder why short men would be afraid to hit on petite women.

115. vino Jun 17th 2008 at 07:42 pm 115

     #106

     I thought they jumped up & down, firing flare guns & blowing whistles…

116. hunter Jun 17th 2008 at 07:44 pm 116

     to the rev T,

     Somehow I don’t think short men are afraid of hitting on petite women. It is more like, petite women are attracted to tall men. Women teach tall men the social/relationship skills, men need to relate.

117. hunter Jun 17th 2008 at 07:46 pm 117

     to vino,

     Ha! Ha!, you are funny!…he, he, he,,,

118. JerseyGirl Jun 17th 2008 at 07:47 pm 118

     We do. And we do all that in a rockin pair of heels and cute outfit.

119. hunter Jun 17th 2008 at 07:48 pm 119

     to Vino,

     They are always hiring at the Comedy club in Hollywood, I sense, you would do well there,…….

120. cinnamon Jun 17th 2008 at 09:25 pm 120

     #115
     good idea, next time I have to try that!

121. vino Jun 18th 2008 at 06:05 pm 121

     Just don’t turn an ankle, JG…

     Something tells me Cinn need not do that..

     “We do. And we do all that in a rockin pair of heels and cute outfit.”

     - Jeeze and I thought dressed up like a clown would be more effective. Maybe hold a beer in one hand & a pizza in the other…

122. vino Jun 18th 2008 at 06:17 pm 122

     Hunter’s #119,

     I’d rather skip the comedy clubs & go straight for the Ray Romano cash in a sitcom. I can so do it. Make it the anti-Everybody Loves Raymond.

     Everybody Loves Ronda…

     She’s a lovable buffoon, who wouldn’t know how to walk upright without Ron’s wit and gentle (and not-so-gentle) prodding. Her parents would be neurotic, overbearing, and cartoonish…and the kids would roll their eyes every time Ronda talked but listened to Ron.

     I see big $ there….

     Don’t you?

123. hunter Jun 19th 2008 at 08:42 pm 123

     to vino,

     #122, sounds like a plan, do it…..

124. cinnamon Jun 20th 2008 at 07:49 am 124

     #123
     yes, you definitely have the capacity

     ps. as far as I’m concerned you could also make one about a PUA

125. Steph Oct 30th 2009 at 06:44 pm 125

     So… what does a ‘10′ look like, generally?

126. Michelle Nov 4th 2009 at 03:03 pm 126

     This reply is for Evan and Tia Maria.  To Evan.  I know you said that men that don’t go for looks are as rare as Haley’s comet.  I have read all the posts and some people have mentioned women who were of average looks and attracted lots of men including good looking men.  Obviously they have a formula for attracting men, and it was not just a question of a freaky one to million chance of an average girl being paired off with a handsome man if this kept happening to them all the time. If these women can do it and though they may seem to be a rarity, I’m sure other women could learn how to be like them. I think it would be good if a woman like this could be a co consultant on your page so she can tell her secrets. At university I also knew someone who really wasn’t that attractive but she was so popular with men.  She was really warm and affectionate and had a bubbly personality.  I think confidence isn’t just a case of resignation of the fact I am a 5 and not a 10, but that I am not a 10, but I can attract men as if I am a 10. (self belief)  This may be very difficult in this world, where  for women confidence can come from attracting men, but I am sure the women I have mentioned must not care when they are rejected and they must believe they can attract the men they want as if they were a 10, if they didn’t believe this and were of average looks, they would not attract the better looking men. 

127. amy Nov 4th 2009 at 07:49 pm 127

     This is all so silly, though. Men are attracted to women who look like they might dig sex. I think that’s the only genuine criterion, if you’re talking looks alone.  That’s what’s hot, I hear.  I’ve been propositioned — I mean outright propositioned — in coffee shops while wearing indescribably unflattering clothing & not having showered for days, plugging away and trying to hit a deadline.  One guy, an acquaintance, actually sat down across from me in a library not long ago and quietly started telling me a filthy (and, I must admit, rather exciting) story.  Professors used to tell me blue jokes and  show up at my apartment with bottles of wine. I’ve had more than my share of jewelry, flowers, proposals, dinners with various parents.  Was once picked up on a train and brought to shipboard party for a dignitary, and been taken out for birthday champagne by an ambassador. I’ve been kissed by a piano tuner. I remember going through some years of wondering what in hell brought all this on, until an ex-boyfriend yelled the answer at me.  According to him, it’s because I a) don’t immediately give men dirty looks; b) look like I like sex. Oh.  I do, of course, but I hadn’t realized there was a look.
      
     In case my grooming habits haven’t been adequately described, I’ll just add that I’m a short, graying middle-aged mother whose fashion sense is pitiable.  I’m in good shape, and not fat, but I’m no 19.  I don’t wear makeup, and apparently my default expression is “pissed off”.  (I’m not, but that’s how it looks when I’m thinking.)  I don’t know where my hairdryer is, and truth be told if I forget about it for a few weeks I do get just the tiniest bit mustachey.  None of this seems to matter. I’d assumed all the attraction would’ve worn off by now, but my advisor’s just invited me to lunch because he wants to hear about the master’s thesis I wrote years & years ago, or so he says. I don’t believe him for a moment. Nobody is ever genuinely interested in someone else’s thesis.
      
     Anyway. My message of hope to all you non-photoshopped-looking gals is: Do not worry. You have everything the men want already.  Relax, and you’ll see.

128. hunter Nov 5th 2009 at 06:01 pm 128

     Amy, you lucky soul. 

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