Is Sex on the Third Date the New Normal?

Evan Marc Katz

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Evan, to say I’m frustrated with dating right now is an understatement! During the past six months, almost EVERY man I’ve gone out with expects sex by the third date. Seriously! It doesn’t matter if it’s a man I’ve met on an online dating site or if it’s a blind date through a friend. And the ones that don’t expect sex just kind of fade away. I’ve asked these men WHY they expect sex by the third date. Their response is that they have heard that if they don’t get it by the third date, the woman isn’t into them. Of course, I’m not sleeping with them… and they fall off the face of the earth.

I’m so fed up with this! I’m 45 now and I never experienced this type of scenario until just this year. Is this all there is now? Now that I’m older, is this all I can expect from a man at this stage of my life? –Patti

Dear Patti,

You’re certainly not the first to feel this way, my friend.

I’m sorry you’re frustrated, but in my experience as a dating coach, frustration usually results when someone’s expectations are out of line with reality.

The way to mitigate the frustration is not to change reality but to change your expectations.

The first thing you can do is understand that men look for sex and find love. We are driven by attraction and have zero trouble separating the physical act of sex from the feelings of love.

In this case your expectations are that men should not be interested in having sex on the third date.

And reality is showing you that this is something that men are interested in.

What’s a slower-moving, more traditional woman to do?

Well, the first thing you can do is understand that men look for sex and find love. We are driven by attraction and have zero trouble separating the physical act of sex from the feelings of love. We’ll have sex with women we don’t like and women we’re barely attracted to. Especially if we’re lonely and sex-deprived (sex is always much more important when you’re not getting it!)!

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199 Comments »Filed Under Sex

199 Responses to “Is Sex on the Third Date the New Normal?”

1. E 1

   I have a lot of trouble with this instant-sex expectation, too (my gut reaction is usually more like:  NO, OF COURSE I AM NOT GOING TO GET NAKED WITH YOU, STRANGE PERSON I BARELY KNOW!!  WHY ARE YOU SO CRAZY??), but this was a helpful response.  Thanks.

2. DinaStrange 2

   Personally, i need to get to know a person before i sleep with him. And that means going out, talking, spending time in his company. That’s how i build my attraction. So, after third date is possible if there is a sense of comfort and the guy is looking for relationship, not a night stand. But in all honesty, i think we women need to be saying “no” more often. If a guy just looks for sex, then things can be discussed honestly and agreed on, but if he actually is interested in you, not just sex, he can CERTAINLY wait. Sex is not gonna run away anywhere…

3. DinaStrange 3

   Evan, perhaps you can answer this question you posted yourself, “your job is to a) figure out if your man is interested in you or interested in sex, and b) figure out how to make it fun for him to slow down.”

   most of women have no idea how to figure that out unless  you make a guy wait…

4. Mia 4

   Sex on the third date is way too soon. I usually have my first kiss on the third date! If you are meeting a relative stranger, the first couple dates are merely to get comfortable with one another. I do find it puzzling that so many women here post about this problem, because I’ve never experienced it. I usually wait until the 6th date for below the belt fun/ sex, and the attractive, confident 27-35 year olds I’ve dated have never given me a hard time for it. However, I realized for a host of valid personal reasons I am better off waiting longer, hence why I just had a sixth date with someone that did not result in any nudity, though certainly a lot of fumbling. But I’ve been really affectionate and warm with him so it’s not like I’m coming off as a cold fish or anything. I think that’s the fine line women struggle to walk – seeming attracted to the guy and touchy while also putting off sex til a point she feels comfortable with.

5. Fusee 5

   Evan, this is the best comment and advice on the topic ever! SPOT ON on the reality check and on the recommendation!
    
   As a “slow mover” during the first stage of dating, I’m really passionate about this topic. Sex is the turning point of a new relationship and using this turning point properly leads to valuable information on the level of interest, respect of boundaries, and communication skills of the other party. Going too fast – even if you feel like it – makes you miss great opportunitites to assess what’s on offer and/or build a solid foundation in the relationship.
    
   After experimenting a lot until finding the ideal balance, I can confirm that Evan’s recommendation as spot on. Yes, you want the man to be attracted to you and try to get close to you. Hey, you want him to be attracted to you and confident enough, right? However it all depends on HOW he tries and how he reacts to your playful statement of your boundaries.
    
   It’s a very subtle dance that has to be played on those first few dates. Being too soft and you do not honor your boundaries and/or assess their interest and respect. Too rigid and you make them run for the hills. As Evan said, if you play it right with the right man, he’ll stick around. My boyfriend accepted to take it slow with me for the first time of his life (four dates for kissing, well over ten dates for 2nd base, exclusive from the begining), and as he started to experience the benefit of patience despite the pain of waiting, he litteraly thanked me (!) for allowing us to build a real connexion and get to know one another.
    
   But believe me, he had a great time waiting! And I was obviously well worth his patience : )

6. Ruby 6

   At first, when i saw this, I assumed that the OP was young, so I was surprised that she’s actually 45. I’m a little older, but don’t recall having this problem too often, and I live in a major metro area, so it’s not a particularly conservative place.
    
   Actually, when I was in my 20s-30s, I’d usually have sex with someone I really liked by the 3rd date. However, I found that it often didn’t lead to a relationship, but did lead to my getting my feelings hurt or realizing that I actually didn’t like the man all that much, but that my judgement had been clouded by the physical attraction. I decided to wait until I knew someone much better. I’d tell a man that I found him attractive, but wanted to take things more slowly, and if he didn’t stick around, I figured that was his problem. I doubt that he would have stayed anyway.
    
   Plenty of men might have sex by the 3rd date and disappear anyway. When I was dating, I met many men who wanted sex, but didn’t want a relationship. The ability to stick around without sex (although with some fooling around) is actually a good way to tell if a man really likes you. Not only that, it’s a good way to tell if a man is really interested in a relationship. My current BF and I both decided to wait, and it ended up being almost 3 months. Now, almost 7 months in, the sex AND the relationship are both great, so I’m glad we took the time to get to know each other better first.

7. Kurt 7

   “And the ones that don’t expect sex just kind of fade away.”
   If both the men who expect sex right away and the ones who don’t stop asking Patti out, then I would bet that she isn’t showing these men that she isn’t interested in them.  She probably just sits there on a date and they have no idea whether she is really interested in them at all.

8. Julia 8

   Yeah you can make out and fool around on a 3rd date without going all the way, in fact it’ll probably hook him in and make him come back for more.

9. Michael17 9

   Evan, please consider this version instead:
    
   Well, this is my take as a male reader in his 30′s who likes to date women in their 30′s: If we as guy do not push for sex by say Date #3–#5, then depending on the woman, she may assume that we aren’t interested and she will end up friend-zoning us. So yes, we tend to push for sex early, often for the reason Evan gave, but also often because that is what many women expect from us. And so we feel that we must do that early on if we want her to keep seeing us.
    

   Women love sex as much as we do and it’s usually on us to make it happen. And furthermore, if a woman is seeing two guys, one of whom she is sleeping with (due to that guy making a move), she usually will choose the guy she is sleeping with, even if she liked the other guy better.
    
   So very often, the reason why we push for sex is that we feel we have to if we want to be in a relationship with you. Otherwise you will lose interest/friendzone us, or another guy will sleep with you first and you will end up with him.

10. Jackie Holness 10

    You may need to join a religious-based dating website because those guys don’t expect to have sex at least as fast…or be introduced to someone who knows you to a mutual friend who has similar views…particularly at your age…

11. David T 11

    When I was dating I would usually kiss on the first date. . . if it felt right. I have a sense now when a woman is going to be receptive to that kiss, and if I see my opportunity I would take it!   But, I also won’t have sex with anyone unless I am in love with them.  I am unusual for a man in that regard, so don’t hold your breath waiting to meet someone else with this same standard.
     
    What you can do is be open about your boundaries.  Have a conversation about when sex is and isn’t OK for you. You can’t bring this up on a first date, but it is entirely appropriate once the physical conversation starts moving that way. Evan is right.  Don’t be defensive and don’t denigrate.  Say you understand and even appreciate his attraction to you;  it is flattering after all(*) and you should take it as a compliment. Then explain your boundaries, that you don’t judge him by his boundaries since that is his business, etc. Maybe make out some if he still wants to knowing it will end at a point. 
     
    If he continues to want to see you, he is into you or it is an ego thing and he wants to win the challenge. If he walks, you have learned what is betwixt your thighs was for more important to him than what is between your ears. Good riddance in that case, and it is not so bad for you since you were not bonded through sex yet.
     
    (*) Maybe not if what Evan says is true that most men will have sex with women they are not attracted to. Really?  Yuck, but again,  I am not the typical guy.

12. Karl S 12

    Speaking as a younger man –

    I usually drop hints just to test the waters by the third date if our rendezvous have been really good, but don’t expect anything. I might try again a couple of dates later to see if we’ve progressed. I’d start seeing red flags after the 10th date if she was still saying no and not willing to move anywhere along the bases either. I might not only wonder about whether she’s interested in me, but whether she’s actually interested in sex (I’ve dated some who never really got excited about it).
    I waited over 2 months for the last girl before she dumped me. Not sure I would wait that long again.

13. Still-Looking 13

    The right man will wait for the right time with the right woman as long as she continues to show interest.  If the man assumes he is in the “friend zone”, however, he is likely to fade — and quickly.  So  much of the uncertainty and anxiety can be dismissed with good communication.  Without good communication the guy is going to assume a lack of interest or a prudish/frigid personality — both relationship killers for me.

14. miskwa 14

    It is often hard to determine whether a man actually IS attracted to you or just wanting sex by a third date. he is still in “best behavior”. I was hit on for sex on a second date by someone much older than I (whom you would think would know better) and I am in my 50′s. End of non-relationship. Of the four committed relationships I have had, sex didn’t happen for one to three months. I got to know the men well, and they me. I don’t think theres a strict timeline; often with long distance relationships, there is a long time between dates where hopefully you’ve been doing some serious communication. Did you know the man as a friend before a relationship developed? On line meetups always put me on my guard as this person is a stranger and there is no real way to find out about him. he doesn’t live in your community and no friends can tell you about him so you are operating solely on gut instinct.

15. Selena 15

    Evan has written before about telling a man you reserve intimacy for an exclusive relationship. Might this be a good way to deflect the guys who want sex on the third date?

    If you think about it, at the end of the 3rd. date you’ve probably only spent around 8 hours together – the equivalent of one day at a new job.  Why should anyone be expected to share their body with someone they’ve spent such a short time with? How many people are willing to be exclusive after such a limited amount of time together?

16. Karl R 16

    Patti said: (original post)
    “I’ve asked these men WHY they expect sex by the third date. Their response is that they have heard that if they don’t get it by the third date, the woman isn’t into them.”

    I don’t believe that there should be sex on the third date. I don’t tend to date women who intend to have sex on the third date.

    But based upon my observations, there is some truth to what these men believe.

    Among people who believe in taking things slowly, there’s a strong tendency to bend or break their own rules for someone they’re really into. I’ve observed it in myself. I’ve observed it in the women I’ve dated. I’ve observed it with the friends (male and female) who confide in me.

    If you’re having an easy time going slowly and not breaking your own rules, you’re just not that attracted to him/her.

    If you’re attracted and interested, make it obvious.

17. Kathleen 17

    Selena 

    Some men have a “third date rule” meaning if you don’t sleep with him by date 3 you are out I had one fool tell me at dinner on the first date that he had a 3 date rule I told him I had a rule against having a second date with a guy who has a third date rule 

    Confident successful guys who expect to win you over when its right don’t have this scarcity mentality.  
     

18. Mia 18

    Michael, there is some truth to what you are saying. We would expect a man to make some kind of move to show his attraction. There is a respectful way for men to do that, such as asking at the end of the 4th/5th date if they can come inside, or inviting you inside after the date, and if the girl says no not making an issue of it. That’s usually what men do with me and I have no problem with it, even if I need a couple more dates to feel comfortable with that. I’ve decided after a couple incidents in a row of men disappearing after date 8, or revealing they don’t want a relationshpi by date 9, that I need to wait at least 10 dates to get better results than what I’ve been getting.

    But I always feel like this gets to be very tricky for the woman by dates 5-8 - on one hand, you want to convey interest in the man, on the other it seems like men LOVE women who make them wait for 3 to 6 months, and those are the women they marry. Then there’s the added concern for the woman that if we wait TOO long, we could discover the guy has a two-incher or can’t get it up. We don’t want to be a tease, or a prude, or a slut … Ultimately, I’m amazed that men (not you, just men in general) bitch about this kind of thing when it’s their own weird and conflicting standards about sex that create the problem.

19. Julia 19

    It also works to tell a man that you physically desire him but need to take things a bit slower, so that way they know that sex will happen just not tonight.

20. Fusee 20

    @Karl R:
    “If you’re having an easy time going slowly and not breaking your own rules, you’re just not that attracted to him/her.
    If you’re attracted and interested, make it obvious.”
     
    Like subtly moaning in my guy’s ear after a nice long and slow kissing interlude on date #5. He totally got it : )
     
    And no, it was not *easy* to postpone sex. Very hard indeed (pun intended). But so worth it.

21. Selena 21

    @Kathleen #17

    Gotta smile about an idiot who would tell a woman on their 1st. date, his “3rd. date rule”. How many second, let alone third dates do you suppose this clueless boor actually achieves?

    I agree with you – confident men don’t have a “scarcity mentality.”

22. helen32 22

    @Mia 18..”But I always feel like this gets to be very tricky for the woman by dates 5-8 - on one hand, you want to convey interest in the man, on the other it seems like men LOVE women who make them wait for 3 to 6 months, and those are the women they marry. Then there’s the added concern for the woman that if we wait TOO long, we could discover the guy has a two-incher or can’t get it up. We don’t want to be a tease, or a prude, or a slut … Ultimately, I’m amazed that men (not you, just men in general) bitch about this kind of thing when it’s their own weird and conflicting standards about sex that create the problem.”

    DITTO

23. Hope 23

    I thought it was an interesting point Michael #9 brought up.  But I think that issue (“friend-zoning”) needn’t come up if you’re taking her to dinner, or to a movie followed by a drink somewhere romantic, or even a walk through the park holding her hand….all things that “friends” don’t do.  Anywhere but a bar!   Sometimes I think it’s scarier to be “formal” in dating, but it makes messages clearer, on the other hand.
    That said, even though it’s a highly personal decision in regards to when one feels ready for intimacy, I gotta say in my experience, I know by the third date and usually am ready for intimacy by then.  If I don’t feel ready by the third date, it’s because I have lingering doubts about the guy, which REALLY means I should probably stop accepting dates from him, thinking he’s going to magically turn into someone I’m sincerely into.  If the guy truly just wants sex, again in my own personal experience, he makes it known wellll before the third date.  Try the middle of the first date…or in our text/email-crazy age, before the first date!
    I think my current boyfriend and I waited til the fourth date.  The first three dates were “formal” dates in Manhattan, and the fourth was an invitation to dinner at a place in his neighborhood (outside the borough).  Easy to read the subtext, and I could have suggested somewhere else if I wasn’t dying to tear off his clothes by then, which I was : )

24. Frank 24

    I dated a woman over a month period who told me  she wanted to take things slow, and gave obvious indications that hinted sexual attraction on her part. Only for me to discover that she’s started shagging a cute tall guy who just surfaced out of the blues in less than a week. With less wooing effort.

    I since made it a point of rule not to go any further with any woman who wanted to take things “slowly”.
    Sometimes, is a euphemism for SJNTIY and wants to string you till better options emanates.

    Women don’t move things slowly with guys they are attracted to. Ask any woman who’s honest and she’ll let you in on that little secret i just gave away.

25. Henriette 25

    Interesting, @Frank24.  I’m not going to suggest your feelings about your personal experiences aren’t valid, but I can assure you here, under the cloak of anonymity (so why would I lie?), that a) I’ve never slept with any guy in fewer than 2 months and b) the more attracted I am to a fellow, the slower I tend move with him because I am particularly wary of how my lust might be clouding my judgement.

26. Ruby 26

    Frank #24

    Sometimes taking things slow is code for “just not that into you,” but sometimes it isn’t. Waiting to have sex doesn’t mean you’re not kissing or making out, or letting the guy know that waiting is hard for you because you are attracted and are enjoying being physically close. The physical relationship might be progressing slowly, but it should be escalating as well.

27. Jonathan 27

    One of my former girl friends told me she had no problem having sex on the first date, if she wanted to.  She thought that if all he wanted was sex, then it was fine with her.  She would rather find out on the first date than the 5th or 10th.  She was a busy woman and didn’t want to waste her time with a man who only wanted sex, and nothing else.  Better to find out what he wanted early on than waste lots of time and money on the wrong guy.  Also, she had no time for men who didn’t know what they were doing in bed.  Better to find that out earlier than later.

    She and I had sex on our first date, and ended up being a couple for 5 years.

    By the way, she was a physician — summa cum laude, double boarded and a professor at a major teaching hospital.   I was 38 and she was 40, and she was one of my former professors. How naughty is that!

    She also said that a women makes a decision whether they will sleep with a man, or not, within 30 seconds of meeting him.  After that, it’s just a matter of when.

28. Fiona 28

    This is a very tricky issue to which there is no easy solution but it is useful to know how men think. I also think three dates seems rather early to sleep with someone no matter how attracted I am as I don’t want to end up with a one night stand. However, if after three dates you can’t imagine wanting to sleep with him at some future point, probably better to get out of it. I find these issues tend to resolve themselves anyway somewhere between dates 4 and 6 because by then I find they are either already planning future activities and introducing me to friends etc or tailing off so fairly easy to see what their intentions are.

29. DinaStrange 29

    Jonathan, some of us women want to be chased. Is it such a foreign concept nowadays. Yes having sexy is EASY, especially for a somewhat attractive in shape girl, but making the guy wait and anticipate that first moment is what turns me on. Pity, men are so used to easy sex…leaves nothing for us traditional girls who want to take things slow and feel like there is some excitement going on….sans bedroom.

30. Lance 30

    Let’s be clear about something. There’s nothing inherently wrong with having sex on the 3rd date, or 1st date, or 10th date for that matter. The when is personal and there’s a variety of factors that determine when is the right time. 

    I’m an active dater and the reality is that the sooner you have sex (3rd date is about right), the sooner you’ll know if you have good sexual chemistry, which is something everyone discounts. What happens if you have terrible sexual chemistry? It’s best to move on and there’s no reason to string out a false relationship over a dozen dates or more. I don’t think anyone here would advocate staying in a relationship with bad sex.

31. Heather 31

    Interesting comments.

    I can understand Patti’s frustration.  I’d been on dates where guys would tell me ON the date, they didn’t like one-night stands, didn’t sleep with a date on the first date, etc.  And yet, these same turds would try doing just what they told me they didn’t want to do.  Huh??  I didn’t make a scene but I’d gently let them know that no, I do not want first-date sex, and that I’m looking for a relationship, not a fling.  Those guys would 9 times out of 10 stop right there, leave, and usually I never heard from them again.  Which told me right there that those guys were lying through their teeth and were hoping that I’d be dumb enough to go along.

    I used to take it really personally but then I just developed an attitude of, “Hey buddy, your loss.  I have a right to my boundaries, and if you cannot respect them, then you’re not boyfriend material anyways.” 

    EMK is right, guys do look for sex and then find love along the way, and hey that’s fine, but it’s also fine for me to not want sex on the first date.  I’m never a shrew about it but I do make it clear if they try to make a move, that it’s just not gonna happen.

32. Mia 32

    Frank, what you describe happens all the time. In the last six months, I slept with a  ONS I knew for a few hours, went to third base by the fifth date with someone I was dating, slept with an old fwb and had a one week sexual fling out of town, but this week just had a seventh date with no nudity. Is the last guy a tool that I’m using? No, I like him A LOT. He has real relationship potential. I don’t want to screw anything up and put pressure on things, or cloud my head, or prematurely force a “talk” – at this point I’m doing it more for me than to impress him.

    But at the back of my head, I also know that men value women more who make them wait – and men have no one but men to blame when they complain about the scenario you describe. I have had several male friends tell me that their wives made them wait six months for sex and that’s the way to make a guy really fall for you. I have no intention of doing anything close to six months, but trust me, girls are well aware of the bizarre phenomenon that men seemingly will do anything for sex, yet uphold the girl who won’t give them any as a prize.

33. Selena 33

    @Jonathan#27

    I read men know whether or not they want to sleep with a woman in 30 seconds. I don’t believe the same is true for most women. We may be initially attracted to a man and find him less attractive as his personality is revealed. Or we may not be super attracted at first, but find him more attractive as we get to know him. The notion that women know how interested they are in man immediately is a dangerous assumption because it can change, and change quickly.

34. Dagaz 34

    so much for circular dating! ))
    is it only me or every woman finds it extremely energy-draining: to date few men at the same time, and for each men it will be 3 dates max, then you suppose to find the replacement.
    when i hear “see other men”, i have picture of this circus in my head and – thank you, no.

35. Heather 35

    @ Mia,

    Yes I’ve noticed that too.  Some guys complain if they never get it, but yet complain if they do get it, that the girl’s a tramp, a slut, etc.  And I sit there and go well hold on a minute now boys.  You can’t have it both ways. 

    That’s why I just go with what works for ME now.  I could care less if it hurts a guy’s feelings if I don’t want first date sex.  That’s not my problem.  I have a right to take care of myself.  Again, I’m never nasty and have never slapped a guy or anything even close.  But I do make it clear.  No, you’re not getting it tonight.  And if you keep pushing me about it, I’m either going to walk out, or ask you to leave.

    I get that guys like sex alot and I don’t fault them for it.  But for me, I’ve learned that if you put out on the first date, they won’t respect you and they usually disappear when they’re done having fun.

36. BeenThruTheWars 36

    Expectations of third date sex have been around since I was a teenager in college in the last 1970s.  And probably before that.  It’s hardly “the new normal.” 

37. Selena 37

    Adding to Lance’s post #30

    There are people who view sex as a part of getting to know someone. Just as there are those who don’t want to have sex without attachment, there are those who don’t want to become attached only to find they are sexually incompatible with that person.

38. SS 38

    @30
    Lance, are you and Honey no longer together?
     
     
    As for this… women should go with what they feel is right. If you want to wait for a few months and a guy said he’s not waiting past the third date, move on. If you find ONS works for you, hey, go ahead and do it (just don’t complain later if they don’t turn into relationships and you want a relationship).
     
    It’s your body. Choose what’s best for you. If you are going to wait, explain why. A man who is on the same page as you will wait. If he says he needs to know RIGHT NOW if you all have sexual chemistry before becoming exclusive and he won’t wait, then let him find someone else.
     
    When I stopped stressing over men’s sometimes mixed messages and followed my own mind, this became less of an issue. I waited four months with my husband, although we did do enough in other ways for him to know I was interested. I do agree that helps… plus, usually, you want to do something if you’re into him!

39. Julia 39

    I wonder if men who expect sex so soon ever consider that a woman might be seeing other men. Guys do you mind sharing a sexual partner?
    In my experience its easier for me to get sex than most of the men I date. 

40. Nicole 40

    @SS,
    I thought that when Honey was still posting, she was engaged to a guy named Jake, and that she blogged with Lance and they had at one point dated.  But I’m pretty sure he was not the BF or fiance that she’d been referring to since I’ve been reading this blog.  

    (Assuming this is the same Lance as before, b/c I hadn’t seen either name pop up recently.)

41. Heather 41

    @ SS,

    Exactly right.  If the guy is worth it, he will wait and understand where you are coming from.  If someone can’t wait, well that’s OK, but they’ll have to move on, because people like me don’t put up with being nagged, too well.  I’ve met a few guys who told me, “Well my ex and I had sex on the first date, and we dated for x amount of time.”  And I usually told them, well that’s nice, but that’s not how I roll.  I’m me, I’m not your ex.

    @ BeenThruTheWars,
    I too, thought the sex on the third date thing is kind of an old one.  I’d heard that one for years. I always thought it was a ridiculous idea, too much pressure on people to figure things out by date 3.  Definitely, it’s good to know sooner, rather than later, if things are going to work out, but not everyone fits into the same mold.  I dated one guy where it took almost 2 months before we really did anything, dated one guy where we never truly went “all the way” due to issues on his part, etc.  So everyone’s going to have a different timetable and to hold people to a standard like that just seems crazy to me.

42. Selena 42

    I haven’t seen Honey post in a long time so I don’t know if she will pop up to answer. She and Lance dated many years ago and shared a blog writing together as friends for some time afterward. She and long time partner Jake married around 2 yrs. ago to the best of my recollection.

43. SS 43

    Thanks everyone for explaining the Lance/Honey thing. I didn’t mean any harm, I was just curious! 

44. Tom 44

    Fusee
    I’m always really impressed with your one-woman crusade against the current dating zeitgeist. I can appreciate navigating the “subtle dance” of indicating interest but not violating your boundaries is difficult. Bravo!

    David T
    “If what Evan says is true that most men will have sex with women they’re barely attracted to. Really? Yuck”
    
    As your diametric opposite I’ve done this before. Sex is just like food to me – of course I’d prefer a steak, but if I haven’t eaten in ages I’ll have to settle for some fast food. But I’m probably not a typical guy either.

    Kathleen
    Your rule against having a second date with a guy who has a 3 date rule made me laugh. J

    Frank
    “women don’t move things slowly with guys they are attracted to”
    
    I think you’re absolutely right here. I used to be the mug that would date for weeks with nothing physical until I also discovered that women throw out their rule-book when they really like someone (in direct violation of Evan’s advice!) The amount of times I’ve been back with a woman on a first date who has said: “I never normally do this, but…” Ladies, do you actually mean this when sex happens on the first night, or is it just a line in case we judge you? I’m curious.

    Julia
    “guys do you mind sharing a sexual partner?”
    
    I don’t particularly mind, as long as I’m also seeing someone else, and all parties use protection of course. Again, I doubt I’m typical though.

    I think everyone here is correct – there are no rules, so just do whatever you are comfortable with.

45. Julia 45

    @tom
    “Ladies, do you actually mean this when sex happens on the first night, or is it just a line in case we judge you? I’m curious.”

    I have mostly been dating online lately, so the first date is the first time I am meeting a guy. I am NEVER ready after the first meeting, even if I really like a guy. If its someone I know and have been flirting with for awhile, I might. Though really in my experience first date sex usually means ONS.

46. Daria (Ria) 46

    Haha, let me tell you, l got called a penis teaser, liar and stupid, when l refused to have sex with a guy. (Bless him)
    I was not sure at the beginning of how serious he was with me, so l decided NOT to get intimate, until l get some clarification as he was drop dead charming at the beginning. Talking of hot handsome dark and tall guy. So at the end my bets proved me right. No way l would have enjoyed having sex with someone who thinks of me so bad. I was extremely attracted to him, and yes l would have slept with him, no problem, but the later woudl have ended up same, so l aborted the mission.

    Like someone earlier said, actually timing wont that much matter, but the personality. My take is that if a woman falls into the category of “lm barely attracted to you anyway and l wont consider you a LTR” for him, then making him wait wont upgrade you or change this status. 

    Different story when both of you want to just have fun.    

47. Leo 47

    All men know that they have to take the lead when they want to court a woman.

    He has to ask you out.

    He has to plan the date.  

    He has to take you out, 

    So of course he’s going to have to take the lead toward the bedroom.

    You can’t blame him for that.

    In fact, most men would want to have sex with a woman before the first date.

    So if you don’t want to deal with going on multiple dates with a man, only to find out that he’s only there for the sex…

    Let him know on the 2nd or 1st date (or even before that), that you’re looking for a relationship.

    It will scare the majority of men away, but those are also the exact same guys who will try to make the move on the 3rd date.

    Stop them now. 

48. Fusee 48

    @Tom #44: “until I also discovered that women throw out their rule-book when they really like someone.”
     
    Depends on the individual. A person with integrity to their values do not change them according to circumstances. If a woman says one thing and does the opposite – even “just this time” – it means that she was either trying to follow “rules” and not real values, or it means that she does not have integrity to her values. Same goes for men of course. No clearly defined values and/or no integrity = huge troubles ahead, and not only in relationships.

49. MH 49

    I feel it’s a double edge sword. I recently had sex with a guy on my first date, who then told me he couldn’t see me again (citing other reasons). Then, he wrote to me three days later, blaming his job for his behavior. He expresses interest in seeing me again, saying that he thinks I’d make for a better bed partner if I relaxed a bit. He wanted to continue where we left off.
    Another guy I made out heavily with on the second date. He wanted to get physical so I said to give me a few weeks. He waited, but as soon as that week approached, he hurried me to his house for it to happen. A few more dates, and well, you know, followed. But as soon I told him how much I liked him by our six date, he gets cold feet. Now we are friends, but as soon as I suggested something more, he fled.
    Want can you do? Evan, are there ways of fooling around or so to do before having full-on sex? Because sometimes I find even they wait until we do the deed and then they disappear once it’s happened.
     

50. Frank 50

    @Mia

    I feel sorry for the guy who’s dating you. I wouldn’t want to be him.

    Would you be happy to find out that he’s sleeping with a whole host of other women because he doesn’t want to screw what you guys already have ongoing. I highly doubt it. What a lame way to justify your intermittent straying patterns.

    I previously had no problem with a woman making me wait for it. I only started having problems waiting when i discovered that she’ll be giving it to some other guys in the interim.  

    Michael, nailed it when he said, men push for sex because women expect them to and punish them if they don’t by giving it to other guys. 

51. Rachael 51

    I want to stay well away from this subject, but it’s just so tantalizing!

    I think each individual person has their own timeline and the “trick” is finding a person who’s timeline either matches yours, or is flexible enough to bend for yours. 

    If good men are taking off on a good woman i’d be inclined to say there’s more going on than a mis-matched sexual timeline. I can’t say what. Everyone is unique. 

    When I was dating I found men to be very respectful of my timelines. EVEN the ones who just wanted sex with no strings. 

     

52. Fiona 52

    Frank, I do not think it is generally true that a woman who makes a man wait a bit is sleeping with someone else. After date 3 I am likely to either disappear because it won’t work or stop dating other men until I see how things pan out. I really do not like the idea of sleeping with one man and continuing to date others. I know that I am not alone in this.

53. Mia 53

    Frank, you misunderstood me. I am not hooking up with anyone else while seeing this man. I wrote that I had hooked up with a series of others quickly in the past couple months, and because he has real relationship potential, I want to wait. He took a long time to ask me out again after the first date, and between then and the second I had a one weeklong passionate fling while out of town. I really don’t want to sleep with someone new just a few weeks after sleeping with someone else. I also       have had enough stress in recent years wondering if a man likes me after sex that I want to wait a little longer for my own emotional protection.

54. Lucy 54

    I always try to be one step behind the guy. On one date, I might give him a peck on the cheek, another a kiss on the lips then on next meeting more passionate kissing and so forth – that way it is building up and progress is being made from the guy’s point of view. I communicate what I want effectively so he is left in no doubt. 

    When I read about dating in the US, I find it to be quite different to here. For example, British people don’t tend to date more than one person at a time. If you end up on more than one date then it’s pretty much assumed that you’re on the pathway to exclusivity and anything else would be leading the person on. So if I’m not interested in someone, I can’t really take more than a couple of dates to decide. That third date dilemma you mention, hasn’t ever presented itself to me. If I was going on dates with more than one guy, some people would see me as a bit of a cock tease (although most aren’t like that).

    I’m a bit cautious about dating rules which rely on a person suppressing their gut instinct, and this seems like one of them. I prefer to wait and build up desire, but what if it felt right to do it before the third date? I mean it seems like a pointless rule. Waiting too long is silly anyway because it seems pretty manipulative and doesn’t guarantee you a relationship with a good man. I actually have to make an effort to hold off in my desire for sex, because my British reserve does not extend into the bedroom.

    Dating does seem to be pretty formal in the USA, whereas most people I know here end up getting serious with people they meet in day to day life. For  that reason, I have never been on a formal dinner date with a man. That usually happens after establishing a relationship with him. If I wanted otherwise, some men would think I’m a stuck up princess gold digger type.

55. Rachael 55

    Frank

    That’s a pretty hard core prejudice!

    The idea that a woman would punish a man for not pushing for sex right away is mind boggling!

56. Aly 56

    As my brother once put it- he would follow his dick into a meat grinder
    This coming from a really great, normal, intelligent male.  He goes for sex early because he’s assertive and extroverted, not because he’s a jerk.  And he certainly would never force it.
    I don’t have sex until boyfriend/girlfriend status has been established and would find it to be a huge red flag if a guy wasn’t willing to wait until that point

57. David T 57

    @Aly 56
     
    You left out “and because to him sex is a meaningless bodily function that feels really good.”  There are plenty of assertive extroverts who do not share your brother’s philosophy.

58. Margo 58

    I’m sorry, Evan, but I’m having trouble with this one. A decent man doesn’t try to get into a woman’s pants on dates 1,2, or 3. So, if he’s acting like a perveted sleazebag, well, maybe that’s what he is. I know that men have a sexual drive, but he does have some self-control, that is the reason that rape is a crime.

59. Evan Marc Katz 59

    @Margo #59 – Your apology is accepted. It became readily apparent a long time ago that your emotions override your logic on the issue of sex, so I’m not surprised that you wrote something that was objectively untrue. Here’s how fast I can prove that you’re wrong.

    a) I am a decent man. I’m happily married. I’m a good father, provider and husband. I’m 40 and have never cheated on anybody in any relationship. I’ve devoted my life to helping women understand men and make healthier relationship decisions.
    b) I tried (and succeeded) to get into women’s pants on dates 1, 2, and 3.

    I wasn’t wrong for trying – certainly not according to the many women who consensually said yes – and I’m certainly not going to be called a sleazebag or a potential rapist on my own blog.

    So either retract your statement about me (and, by extension, other good men who act on attraction earlier than YOU’RE comfortable with) or stop posting here. I don’t come to work to be insulted by strangers who don’t know me and seem to prefer emotional reasoning to logical reasoning.

60. DinaStrange 60

    You know what, this is seriously getting ridiculous. No man should EXPECT sex on first, second, third or forth whatever dates. Sex should be done when BOTH people feel comfortable with each other. If he expects sex on first date, then i expect to get paid. We give so many excuses to guys, yet if a girl will expect a guy to buy her a $200 dollar purse on a second date, she is a gold digger….TOTALLY double standards.

61. Rachael 61

    Margo basically just called me a perverted sleazebag too…  

    I recall trying pretty damn hard to get that button open.

    Sometimes sex is just a raw impulsive reaction to being really really horny and being with someone really really HOT!  

    And sometimes a person just wants to get some because they like sex. Horniness is not a perversion.

    Yes, rape is a perversion but it’s not illegal because a rapist makes a choice. It isn’t any less illegal if a rape is committed by someone (lets say) in the depths of sleepwalking and makes no choice. The punishment may change due to mental state, but not how illegal it is. It’s illegal because it’s violent and harmful.

    Likening horny men who “give it a good try” to rapists is…Just so way off I can hardly take any of this seriously. 

    So i’m not :p

     

62. Evan Marc Katz 62

    @Dina – HUGE difference between TRYING to make a move for sex and EXPECTING sex. NO ONE said that sex should happen only when he wants it. Any parallels to you “getting paid” are way off base, and indicative of your mindset about what you value in men. Put another way: I know MANY people who have consensual sex on the third date. I don’t know ANYONE who has bought a purse for a woman on the third date. Sex is consensual. He tries. She says yes or no. The point of this post is that she shouldn’t be surprised when he tries.

    Oh, and one more thing: if you equate dating to a crude exchange of value: he wants sex, she wants money, he doesn’t need to buy her a $200 purse.

    After all, he already spent $200 on the first 2 dates.

63. David T 63

    @Margo 58
    Evan has a good point. Wanting sex early does not make you less “decent.”
    Unlike my current philosophy, in my 20′s I had a one night stand or two, had first date sex with someone that became a girlfriend, made a grievous mistake in 2004 towards the end of my unhappy and abusive marriage that I will forever regret,  and shopped for an f-buddy late the next year (mercifully, that failed!).
    I also never left in a huff when I was rebuffed, though I was slightly annoyed by one woman who sent some VERY mixed signals (Don Savage responded to that one. See link.)  Don’s sage words back then were to communicate your boundaries and wants clearly. 
    I don’t judge people who want sex without love, though I do believe they may be doing some harm to themselves and their ability to bond later. To me what makes a person decent and of integrity  is  communicating openly and honestly what is on your mind with your partners and would be partner(s).
    Older and wiser to how my heart works and now I have established a boundary that I need and that I believe in. Was I a decent man prior to my 40th birthday?  Yes, I suppose so, barring that mistake in my marriage.  Just a little confused as to what works best for me.

64. Rachael 64

    Thank you david for your honesty. It showed me I am right in assuming my ex-husband actually IS a decent person who just made the wrong choices.

    Mistakes do happen in life. Life is not a harsh palette of black and white and decent human beings come in many shades.

65. Fiona 65

    Lucy I agree with you that Britain used to be a country you dated one person at a time but I think it has change somewhat in the last decade with online dating. I don’t think many rational people could see an issue with having coffee with more than one person at a time although I have to admit it took a bit of getting used to in beginning. 

    While I agree that dating is much less formal here outside of the online/blind date world, I still think you take a big risk if you sleep with someone on the first or second meeting even if you want to because it is highly unlikely to lead to more. A lot of the other single girls I know here who do that have tales of woe about it afterwards and there is not much I can say other than stop doing it until he has made it clear that he sees you as his girlfriend. My experience here is that most men here aren’t really likely push for much more than a kiss the first couple of dates. I am fine with them showing me that they are interested in more but physically trying for more makes me uncomfortable and is likely to put me off because I can’t get to know someone properly if I can’t see past his advances.

66. Selena 66

    @David T.

    The “what works best for me” part is what I see this whole thread being about. It’s something everyone has to figure out for themselves, and sometimes that means enduring some disappointment along the way. What works best for one person, may not for someone else.

    As far as EXPECTING sex on date #3 (or any other), isn’t the very expectation a turn-off? It’s not letting nature take its course, it doesn’t sound romantic at all – it sounds rather demanding, mechanical, and a clear sign the man is more interested in having sex than in the woman herself.

    I understand both men and women wanting sex when they want it – but expecting it because someone has spent a handful or so hours with you speaks more about their personality.

67. Lucy 67

    I don’t think that a man trying for sex early on means he isn’t decent, but I don’t like that 3 date rule. It seems to convey the idea that men are sexual predators, something which I feel uncomfortable with since most men are not like that. I don’t believe you should use someone else’s rules in dating, and if you play games you’ll only end up with other people who do. 

    Saying that, I would definitely find it sleazy if a guy tried it on during the first date. What I seem to experience a lot is men who keep pushing sex with me even after I’ve made it clear that I’m uncomfortable with it. I don’t know where these men come from but they definitely need advice. I went on a date recently and the guy was super creeping me out. He kept going in for a kiss and I kept turning me head away because I did not want to kiss him. He was touching me in places I did not want to be touched and then he asked me if I wanted to go back to his place. I told him absolutely not BUT then he pressed me again, “Are you sure?” which was really quite insulting because he did not respect my opinion. I couldn’t run away either ’cause I was locked into a corner.

    “I don’t judge people who want sex without love, though I do believe they may be doing some harm to themselves and their ability to bond later.”

    I strongly agree with this. I have had sex without love before. I have never been really promiscuous but there were times where I did have no strings attached sex. It did not upset me because I have managed to turn off that part in my brain which makes me attached to a man after sex. It’s really sad for me to think that it’s easy for me to be sexual with someone but emotional intimacy is what really freaks me out.

    I have been in relationships with men who made me feel unattractive during sex with them. I’ve had my naked body critiqued, I’ve had men who did not care about my sexual pleasure and one of these guys told me I was freak of nature for wanting to have sex. The other guy lashed out at me when I wanted sex and he didn’t. He’d hurt me and leave me crying in a corner because didn’t care about how I felt. All of this in my past makes me very cautious around men, and almost makes me believe that good sex is the stuff of fantasy.

68. Heather 68

    @ David T:

    I agree that wanting sex early doesn’t make you an indecent person or whatever.  However, if I’m wanting to kind of take things slowly and I realize you’re wanting it early, it does make me go internally: “Oh boy, here we go again, this guy is really gunning for it so he must be just looking for a booty call, not a relationship.”  The reason why I would think this is because I’d made it clear on online profiles that I was looking for a relationship, NOT a fling.

    It doesn’t mean that I think the guy is like what TV host Keith Olbermann used to label “The Worst Person In The World”, but my stock does go down somewhat with you, if you’re gunning for it pretty early on.  In fact, if sex does happen within the first few dates, I just prepare myself for either a disappearing act, or an email finding all kinds of excuses why suddenly he can’t handle a relationship now, despite all the talk beforehand about how he wanted one, ready to settle down, etc.

    Is that a fair thing for me to do?  Probably not, but considering what I have experienced, it makes sense for me to be a lot more cautious about men and sex early on into things.  So I set better boundaries and it worked.  It scared off the douchebags and left me free to go do something fun, like read a good book.

69. DinaStrange 69

    Evan, all human relationships are exchanges. And since we live in capitalistic system, don’t you constantly talk about supply/demand in your blog. For example, women lower your expectations, since the tall, dark and good looking will have a much larger pick of beautiful females, than short and bald.

    Most of women would rather have a relationship than a one night stand. And it’s pretty common for a guy to pressure a girl to have sex and then disappear. Of course, its an exchange. Someone makes an offer and you decide whether to accept or not.

70. Michael17 70

    It’s not so much about women “punishing” us for not going for sex, it is instead that we men know that a woman’s heart goes to the guy she is having sex with. Yes, as in she has sex with him and *then* she develops feelings for him. It might not be how she planned it to work out, but it is instead often how it just does.

    Mia and other women, be VERY careful about making Mr Right wait while you have sexual flings with Mr RightNow. If Mr Right were to find out about that arrangement, he would be pissed. One thing that is important to us as guys is that a woman is careful about whom she spreads her legs for. Yes that’s a double-standard and it will always be there. But then again, women hold it against men who cry/won’t make a move and so on, while women themselves have the freedom to do these things.

71. SS 71

    Selena @66
    “I understand both men and women wanting sex when they want it – but expecting it because someone has spent a handful or so hours with you speaks more about their personality.”
     
    Yes! Exactly! I don’t have a problem with anyone wanting sex — we’re all human, right? But I’ve seen more men have a sense of entitlement about it than ever and I’m thinking WTH? THAT is what threw me for a loop during my dating periods… as I’ve mentioned in other threads, there was one guy who told me after two dates that he didn’t have much money because he’d lost his job, but still wanted to hang out and see me, even if we couldn’t do anything that cost much. I said that was fine and suggested some free activities and cheap activities like a book talk at a bookstore with coffee. Oh no, he said… he was tired of hanging out and talking, he was ready for intimacy. (This was all said by email, mind you… not even in person.) I politely responded that sex would not be on the table until I was in an exclusive relationship, but I was happy to spend more time getting to know him to see if we were headed in that direction.
    Nope, not good enough for him either. He went into a long diatribe about how he had to have physical intimacy to determine whether or not he wanted to be exclusive and how I was using sex as a reward and compartmentalizing sex versus letting it evolve naturally, blah blah blah.
     
    Seriously? None of that was even necessary! If he didn’t like my stance, he could have simply stopped contacting me and moved on. But no, he had to give me a lecture about my supposed prudishness… which again, gave off a sense of extreme entitlement.
     
    And don’t get me started on other so-called enlightened individuals who I’ve dealt with who suggested that women overall would be better off having sex earlier because that’s what they supposedly really want versus being socially conditioned to wait… or that men might become more interested if such women if they were able to have sex with them sooner rather than later. I ran that by my brother and he said, “Nah… early sex isn’t going to make him want a relationship with you if he didn’t already. If you had sex on the first date and he likes you anyway, that’s one thing, but using sex to make him like you more, well, I never see that working.”
     
    Sorry this is long, but it’s THESE types of men who are the problem because they cast aspersion on a woman’s personal decision instead of either accepting it or moving on to a different woman. I’m used to men wanting sex early and attempting to get it, but I’m wondering how we got to the point where it became okay for men to EXPECT it and that not be seen as problematic. (I mean this is in a general societal sense.)

72. Kathleen 72

    Michael T #70

    I think if Mr Right wants exclusivity he should gain that agreement upfront otherwise why should he be pissed.??  I can understand him being pissed if they both agreed to be exclusive. If I guy doesn’t ask for that I never assume that agreement.   You are correct though that the woman will bond with the guy she’s sleeping with

    You sound like victim saying women hold it against men who cry. I was talking to an online guy who had just lost his dog of 13 years and he started to cry. I did too because I felt his anguish. I sound it endearing    

    Regarding the guy that told me at dinner on date one he had a 3 date rule… It came off like an ultimatum. Cant imagine many women responding favorably to that style

73. Selena 73

    @SS#71

    The scenario’s you described sound less like a man expecting sex, more like aman attempting to bully a woman into sex. Same with the dude Kathleen went out with who told her his “3rd date rule” on their first date. Hard to imagine how effective these tactics would be, simply based on the percentage of women who would feel TURNED OFF, if not insulted as well.

    Something to consider? Men who try to bully women into sex probably aren’t very good at it.

74. Heather 74

    @ Selena,

    Good point there.  I’ve had similar experiences with the type of guy that SS described and it really left a bad taste in my mouth, particularly after having left an abusive marriage.  It made me wonder what the hell I was getting into here, with dating again.

    Once I met more guys who didn’t act like such bullying jerks, I felt a bit better about it, but still, it is unnerving.  I had one such fellow right around the end of 2010.  When I thought we were going too fast too soon, I made it clear.  He got angry and left, and then told me that I had trust issues, in a text message mind you.  This idiot had the nerve to contact me last summer, on PlentyOfFish.  We’d met on Match, btw.  He tried to be all cutesy and flirtatious and I just shut him right down, and reminded him that according to him, I was into head games and had trust issues, and that he’d be damn well served to leave me alone.

    The entitlement attitude galls me as well.  No guy is entitled to sex.  Just like no woman is entitled to it either.  I get so angry when a guy tries to justify it by telling me, “But I paid for dinner/gave you a lift home.”  Say what?????  Ugh.  Thank heavens my guy does not behave like that.  But then again he knows if he’d ever behave like that, his ass would have marks from hitting that curb.

75. Bill 75

    If he is truly in having a relationship with you he will wait. More times than not a guy is just not into you that is why he expects sex or he fades away.

76. Michael17 76

    Kathleen #72: If a woman told me that she thinks I’m amazing but that she wants to “take it slow” and then I hear she has been getting it on with a fling, FWB, whatever, I would feel the emotion of anger, and I would quickly and emphatically end it with her.

    Lest you think I’m this crude barbarian most other guys would do something similar. On a basic reptilian level we’d worry about being cuckolded by you.

    Anyway, if you’re not ready to sleep with ME without being exclusive, that’s fine. But don’t sleep with other guys in the meanwhile either.

    This would be the closest thing I could imagine to that: you sleep with a guy who  leaves your bed that morning to take another girl to breakfast. Even if you’re only FWB and he doesn’t need to account for his time away from you, the idea that he is taking other girls on dates while he calls you “for one thing” isn’t appealing to most women.

    Meanwhile, no need for you to *try to* get personal and call names. There is a double-standard towards sex in that we as men will judge a woman a lot more harshly for sleeping around than you will us. I’m only giving you my honest take that most of the men you come in contact with will feel, whether they will admit it to you or not.

    Just as women are allowed far more indulgences in expressing their emotions. (A dog or a beloved family member passing is a huge emotional event and crying is a sign that the guy is actually human and being real. A guy crying due to a moderately tough day at work or deciding he is going to cheer himself up via “retail therapy” will get laughed at.)

     

77. RW 77

    The discussion thus far has been fascinating.  I was just going to read but now I can’t resist the urge to jump in myself.  I will start by saying that I come from a slightly old fashioned mindset.  I’m only 30 and my beliefs are not driven by religion (I’m a borderline atheist) but I do sincerely believe in waiting to have sex.  Ideally until you’re married but that’s hardly reasonable in today’s world so at least until you are firmly established in a relationship that you feel will eventually be on the path to marriage.  That means waiting 3, 6 or 8 months until you feel secure.  On the flip side, I won’t accept a man who does not also believe in the same thing.  I can accept 2 or 3 prior sexual partners if they were long term relationships but I would have a hard time justifying any more.  I won’t get into all the reasons behind this belief because that really isn’t the point here and I’m not asking anyone to agree with me.  But given my viewpoint, I am horrified at men pushing for sex on the 3rd date.  I am surprised at how commonplace it appears to have become.  I’m very curious about these men (and women) and whether they change their opinions once they have spouses and children.  There is honestly no judgement intended…I believe that each person has to do what works for him/her.  But if so many people find this behaviour normal and acceptable, I am genuinely intrigued by how one would explain such behaviour to one’s children.  Ie if your 18 year old daughter wanted to emulate such behaviour, would that be acceptable?  How about if she were 20?  How about if she were 25?  What if it were your son instead of your daughter?

78. Julia 78

    Am I the only woman who has not been pushed or pressured into sex?

    I have had sex never to hear from a man again but he didn’t pressure me, I made a choice. I’ve literally never had a man that he expect sex from me at a certain point, I’ve always dealt with open communication.

79. Julia 79

    @Michael #76

    Maybe instead of just rushing to conclusions you should, I dunno, talk to a woman. If a woman doesn’t sleep with you by the third date, that must mean she is sleeping with someone else is sort of a quick judgement not based on anything but your own insecurity, I would assume.

    @RW #77 Good luck, you are going to have a hard time finding that, you are really narrowing your pool down with no real reason. Its hard to meet men in their 30s who’ve only had with 2-3 partners, its hard to find women this way too. I’d hope you understand that as long as someone isn’t bringing a disease along with them, the number of sexual partners they’ve had doesn’t mean that much.

80. Fiona 80

    I feel really bad for the women that this has been happening to. In the last 4 years I have only slept with two men, one was a 2 year boyfriend and the other a 3 month boyfriend. In both cases when I realised it was getting towards that point I explained that I liked them but I wanted to wait a little longer and in both cases I was sure we were an item beforehand. Both were fine with waiting (although they wouldn’t have had much option if they wanted to keep seeing me). Maybe I was just lucky in this (although they both ended those relationships later so I am beginning to think that the main problem in my love life is me driving away good men). I haven’t felt pressured into sleeping with any of the other men I went on dates with either. A few have tried it on and I have declined. I have however seen single friend after single friend get hurt after sleeping with someone on the first few dates and then him disappearing but they never seem to learn.

81. Selena 81

    @Michael17

    If you are bothered (angered) by the idea a woman you were dating was having sex with someone else…why wouldn’t you ask for exclusivity upfront? That was how I interpreted Kathleen’s post. If you don’t ask for it, why should you expect it?

82. Fiona 82

    Michael, I just don’t get the logic that because a woman isn’t sleeping with you after a few dates, she must be sleeping with someone else. It seems to me the more likely explanations are a) she just doesn’t want to sleep with you or b) she likes you but wants to be reasonably sure that you won’t disappear immediately afterwards but maybe that’s just me.

83. nathan 83

    I find this discussion interesting in light of the last one that got bogged down in the old who pays for dates argument. I side with the women who suggest that men should not expect sex, even if they want it early (which most of us do when we are interested.) Sex should happen on a shared timetable, end of story. No one should be made to feel guilty or shamed about wanting sex, but it’s also true that no one should be guilted or manipulated into having sex either. Sometimes, it’s challenging to figure out all this stuff, but if you can’t figure first sex out together, good luck being together over the long haul.
     
    With that said, women might remember the legitimate angst and outrage they feel around early sex here. Especially the concern about being used by men who don’t have long term intentions. Because it’s really a similar feeling that many men have when it comes to being expected to pay constantly for dates. It’s easy to feel used by women for some entertainment, even when that wasn’t the intention. Just as it’s easy to feel used for sex, even when that wasn’t the intention. I’m sure a few will protest this attempted equivalency, but the main point (equal or not) is that people seem to have a lot of expectations around dating these days. Especially dating people who are strangers with zero social connections beyond a website or singles event.
     
    The reality is that we’d all probably suffer a lot less if our only expectations were that the other person offer basic respect, listens to us, and demonstrates some kindness on those initial dates. Everything else, including falling in love, is extra. Good fortune you might say. Anyone who doesn’t offers those basic qualities, like the guy saying he’s going to have sex on the third date, gets axed. End of story. But with the rest, it would come down to whether you feel like seeing the person again. I just think that too many rules and expectations get in the way these days. A lot of folks seem happy on the rejection trigger, and ready on the judgement button. Not a good recipe in my book.

84. Karmic Equation 84

    I want to play devil’s advocate here. Why can’t sex just be sex? Why can’t we women have “fun” with sex the same way guys have “fun”? Why does it have to “mean” anything other than two people being attracted to each other and wanting to have fun?

    I’ll you why, because of the double standards that have been so ingrained in us that we don’t even realize it. But that’s another post

    I think it’s just as wrong for us women to impose “relationship-ready requirements” on men before we have sex. Who says that is the “right” way to do it? Why is it NOT ok for there to be sex with no strings? We don’t have to worry about unwanted pregnancies anymore…which was the original reason for requiring strings!

    I consider all my relationships (4yrs; 1yr; 11yrs; 6yrs) successful, even though they ended for various reasons…and while the ends were painful, none were devastating, at least not for me, since I was the one who ended them (except the 1yr one–the guy ended that one, which was interesting as that was the one guy I *did’nt* love–go figure).

    Each relationship I went into, I had no predetermined outcome for them. And I think that this lack of expectation or “requirement” allowed the men in my life to escalate the relationship at their speed and they’ve never let me down. I’ve never had the “exclusivity” talk…it just was. I’ve never had “where is this relationship going” talks…and they always went the way they should from dating to exclusivity (and in the case of the 11 yr relationship – marriage).

    So my take on all this angsting about wasting time, is he the right one, should I have sex or not…all of these questions come from our internal expectations–OUR requirements for life that get imposed on men. Who doesn’t rebel against unfair requirements? or expectations of others?

    Get rid of your internal requirements and ENJOY THE RELATIONSHIP *IN THE MOMENT* — one moment leads to the next and, if you are the best person you can be, the guy in your life will know it (you are better than anyone else he’s ever known) and do the right thing by you if he’s afraid of losing you. The real question — and the hard question is — does he gain by *keeping” you — do you enhance his life? or does he gain by “losing” you — are you a drag or a responsibility? If you are not the best you can be emotionally, aesthetically, psychologically, he gains by losing you.

    Moral of the story is, be the best female person you can be…then you won’t NEED a man…you can want them, but you won’t “need” them…and in return they will want you back…the right ones AND the wrong ones…you get to have your pick, or establish your own male harem, if you really want to. There’s nothing wrong with that.

85. Michael17 85

    Fiona and Selena,

    Please go back and reread my post. I never said I was assuming that she is sleeping with someone else. I DID say that I would be pissed *in the event that* she is putting me on the slow track while she is giving sex to another guy. I do not want to be the guy a woman “makes wait” while she having sex with someone else.

    If things between us are going really well AND we are getting physical AND IF I don’t hear that she is having sex with someone else, then I will go for exclusiveness maybe after a month or so. 

86. Mia 86

    Michael, I am confused by your point that men want women who won’t just open their legs for anyone, but that you try for sex on dates 3-5. A woman who’s sleeping with a guy that fast IS spreading her legs rather easily. A woman who makes a guy wait a few months falls much more in the category of a non-easy woman, but it sounds like you’d be offended if she made you wait that long. Well, what are we supposed to do? Men twist us into knots and pretzels with all their insane double standards. How can men be obsessed with sex, yet punish those who grant it and prize those who don’t? Its always seems to be the manipulative prudes with no sex drive who use sex as a bargaining chip that get the engagement ring, so women are extremely torn by how to approach this. 

87. Fiona 87

    Nathan, I can’t believe you are back on the paying for dates subject but as you are, I don’t know how many women just go on dates for free entertainment. I can think of nothing less entertaining than a date with a guy that is going nowhere. I can’t speak for other women but if I go on a date with a guy I am treating it as an opportunity to see if there is potential for a relationship. The likelihood of me seeing potential in someone who won’t treat me to a coffee or pizza is not high.

88. Heather 88

    @ Nathan,

    Actually, because of what you just pointed out, that’s what has made me really adamant about trying to offer to split or pay the bill on a first date, just in case a guy might try to pull that stunt.  If a guy insisted on paying, I backed down.  I just did not want any kind of accusations, if I turned down sex on a first date, that I “used” a guy.  Now I will admit, a few times when I had a guy lie to me outright, be rude somehow on the date, or whatnot, then yes, I’d let him pay and not even offer to pick up the check, but ONLY in those cases.

    It’s sad that it’s like this anymore, but I figured with online dating, you don’t know what you’re really getting, and I wanted to make sure I’d be safe.

    I do understand a guy feeling used if a girl truly is leading him on, that’s just rude behavior and I sympathize with nice guys who were treated like that.  Which is also why, if I met a guy on a first date and I didn’t click with him, I let him know right away so that way I could minimize hurt feelings and again, avoid accusations of using.  I was accused of that once, and let me tell you, never again.  That was a disaster and I practically had to get the police involved.  The guy had some really terrible anger issues.

89. Evan Marc Katz 89

    @Mia – “Its always seems to be the manipulative prudes with no sex drive who use sex as a bargaining chip that get the engagement ring, so women are extremely torn by how to approach this.”

    FALSE.

    I don’t know ANY women who used sex as a bargaining chip that landed quality boyfriends. I know plenty of them who knew that a man was decent boyfriend material before sleeping with him.

    My advice: read “Why He Disappeared”. Second section on courtship. That’s how you handle sex with a man.

    I can’t take any more of these wrongheaded beliefs (from either men or women) that pass themselves off as facts.

90. Selena 90

    Michael,

    Agreeing to be exclusive would diminish the chances of you being put on the ‘slow track’ while a woman is giving sex to another guy. It’s what being exclusive means. I get it that you might not want to be exclusive for the first month or so of dating, but then we’re back again to not expecting exclusivity from someone if you don’t ask for it.

    As an aside, how often do you “hear” of a woman you are dating having sex with someone else? Stalking?

91. Fiona 91

    Mia, I don’t agree that women who have sex on dates 3 to 5 are spreading their legs easily if it has then been established that it is the beginning of a budding relationship. I don’t think men should be made to wait for the hell of it when it clear that is where things are at. However, nor would I want to sleep with a man like Michael who won’t be clear about the status of a relationship/non relationship until after the event.

92. Tom 92

    SS, Heather and Lucy,
    I’m actually horrified by these men who press you into sex before you’re ready. What you experienced Lucy is shocking, and tantamount to abuse. It’s hard to believe that some men still act like that. I always want sex early, so I just find like-minded women. I’ve never expected sex.

    Michael17
    You make a good comparison there about men who view one woman as good enough to date, and another just for sex – I can see how the woman who just gets sex would be insulted. If I was the guy who dated Mia for seven weeks with no contact, and then subsequently found out that she slept with other guys after a few hours I’d be mildly insulted (am I not as attractive or something?)

    Fusee and RW
    As people who advocate not having sex for several months do you ever worry that there might be no chemistry after all the build-up? In my experience there’s absolutely no way to know if it’s there until you actually have sex, and does it matter to you if it’s not?

    RW
    “if so many people find this behaviour normal…how one would explain such behaviour to one’s children?…if your 18 year old daughter wanted to emulate such behaviour, would that be acceptable?…what if it were your son instead of your daughter?”
    
    I see sex as an entirely normal human function and there’s nothing embarrassing, shameful or even special about it, therefore, when / if I have children I would inculcate them with the same attitude. If you’re hungry – eat, if you’re horny…

    I’d be interested to know why you think like you do if you’re not religious.

    Karmic Equation
    I fully agree with your post, however, I wonder by living your philosophy could it place you in a vulnerable position of being strung-along by a guy who likes it as it is and doesn’t actually want a relationship? Would this bother you?

93. Mia 93

    Also, I think how you know the person determines when you have sex. My casual encounters have been with men I knew socially/professionally, often for a year or two. So when I make a guy off match take me on at least six dates before third base/sex, well, he’s some rando off the Internet! How could I possibly feel confortable sleeping with him on the third date? However, with the fling I just had, while we slept together after just a few days, he was one of my best friend’s close friends.  That makes a HUGE difference, and men should understand that. 

94. Heather 94

    @ EMK:

    To play devil’s advocate here, I’m not sure that Mia was saying that it’s a “fact”, I think more likely it’s a case of venting frustrations, and I can understand that.  I used to be the same way, joking with a friend that I needed to be a frigid, mean, selfish bitch to get a good man.  Of course that is so not true, but that’s how it “felt” sometimes.

    It can be confusing, as a woman, to be told that we’re “easy” if we put out fairly soon, and “frigid” or have “trust issues” if we ask a guy to wait.  For me now, I could care less what men think.  If they don’t like what I think or what my boundaries are, well hey man, there’s the door, and make it quick so my cat doesn’t accidentally follow you!

    I’m not saying she’s “right” per se, but I am suggesting maybe she’s just venting about how she may feel about the dating process.

95. Wendy 95

    What I don’t understand is, how are you supposed to feel special in any way when you know the guy you’re dating will sleep with anything that moves? The man I’m seeing now is just such a specimen, and while he acts like a good guy, he readily admits that “sex is just sex.” And after reading all these posts promoting meaningless sex with random strangers, I guess he’s right. I’ve really been making an effort lately to lose the emotion I attach to sex, but I just can’t get myself to enjoy sex without it and I can feel myself slipping away from this guy. If this is the way most people are now, I’m beginning to wonder what the point is. I’m 43 and I guess it’s time to let go of the dream of ever making “love” in my lifetime. It’s kind of depressing.

96. amy 96

    I can understand a guy getting angry if he found out that a woman was sleeping with someone on the side and telling you she wanted to take it slow….But many women have f-buddies just for this reason: to keep sex separate so they can choose the right guy. They are pushing you off for a while because they really really like you and want to see you clearly. so they’re sleeping with someone else, like eating before a wedding — so you won’t be too hungry.
    Usually, if they’re really into you they’ll dump the lover. It just takes the edge off dating.
     

97. Selena 97

    Mia,
    I just have to chuckle. I don’t think men are ever going to understand why it’s important to you to wait 6 dates before 3rd base with one guy, but perfectly okay to boink one of your best friends’ close friends a few days after meeting. I don’t see the huge moral distinction here, and I’m fairly experienced and open minded.

    What can I say but good luck. (And you’d be wise to keep your sex life private).

98. Karmic Equation 98

    @Tom 92
    “I fully agree with your post, however, I wonder by living your philosophy could it place you in a vulnerable position of being strung-along by a guy who likes it as it is and doesn’t actually want a relationship? Would this bother you?”

    Honestly, I rarely get into situations where I’m vulnerable. Even this situation. I would only feel vulnerable if I *want* a relationship and he’s stringing me along. However, if I don’t care whether or not there’s a relationship, then he’s not stringing me along. He’s living his life; I’m living mine…and sometimes we meet in the middle, so to speak.

    Now, if you’re asking if I ever wanted a relationship with a guy who didn’t want a relationship with me after sex. That’s never happened. Since I don’t equate sex with relationships…if I have sex with a guy…and it isn’t great, I don’t care if he never calls me back. If I have sex with a guy..and it’s great…and he doesn’t give me a call back, I also don’t care if he doesn’t call me back. I wanted great sex, I got great sex. I won!

    I have sex with a guy when I feel like it, but I never expect a relationship out of it. That’s a bonus. Relationships take work though. So I’ve now learned to only work on having relationships with guys who are great lovers. They’ve “earned” that relationship commitment from me by being great lovers to me. If they stop being great lovers, bye-bye relationship. They lose because I’m a great person and even better girlfriend.

    It’s all in your perspective. If someone earns the SILVER medal in the Olympics, did they “lose” the Gold or did they “win” the silver? Guess it depends on one’s perspective.

99. Tom 99

    Wendy
    “how are you supposed to feel special in any way when you the know the guy you’re dating will sleep with anything that moves?”
    
    Because he has given up the opportunity to have sex with every other woman in the world – just to be with you! That’s an enormous sacrifice for such a specimen.

100. Karmic Equation 100

     Appending to Karmic Equation #98

     I have to admit though, that I would be kind of bummed if the guy I had great sex with didn’t call me back. First because my *ego* would have wanted to hear back from him…and secondly, because I would have wanted the opportunity to have more great sex with him!

     The reality is that if you start having regular sex with a guy and you LIVE IN THE MOMENT, enjoying him when he’s around; enjoying YOUR OWN LIFE when he’s NOT AROUND; you’d don’t get caught up in needing to be in a relationship…and you get to have great sex — WITHOUT THE ANGST — in the bargain.

     I know, I know, what if you fall in love with him! Well, you might. That is a risk. So what’s wrong with having great sex with a guy you’re in love with? Ohh…but you want to be in a relationship with the guy you’re in love with?

     Well, once again if you separate sex and relationship…and let’s assume for this exercise you can’t have both, what would you choose…

     (A) Do you want to have great sex with the guy you’re in love with?

     or

     (B) Do you want to have a great relationship (which doesn’t include sex) with the guy you’re in love with?

     Nooo…(C) I want great sex IN A RELATIONSHIP with a guy I’m in love with!!!

     That love trifecta is hard to come by. Sorry! Choose A or B and sometimes, if you’re lucky, and the stars align, or you’re the best female person you can be, then C happens.

     Remember, relationships take work, sex is FUN! Why choose work when you can choose fun?

     Just call me a heretic

101. Mia 101

     Heather – yes, that was a little tongue and cheek venting! 

     Selena, there is no moral difference between the two, I was referring to comfort level. It simply takes longer to get to that comfort level with someone from the Internet who you have no friends in common with.

     Amy, your comment is pretty much in line with my thoughts about this …  

102. Fiona 102

     Karmic, I think you know you are in a minority of women. Fact:most women can’t have sex and not get hurt if the man disappears. For that reason most women are better off not having sex unless it is clear that the guy wants to be with only her.

103. Karmic Equation 103

     @Wendy 95
     So slip away from the guy. What’s wrong with that? Or do you mean he’s slipping away from you? Let him!
     The double standards is working double-time in you and you don’t even know it.
     You don’t want to be perceived by society as being a bad girl for having sex outside of a relationship, so by golly, you MUST HAVE A RELATIONSHIP to justify the sex. Yes, oxytocin can make you bond to the guy you’re having sex with. Knowledge is power. Know that chemically, your BODY is making you bond with the guy, not really your “emotions.”
     Fight the guilt or acknowledge that your physiology is having an unpleasant side effect. Acknowledge ingrained the double-standard.
     It’s ok to want sex, in a relationship or not (but cheating is not ok, just to be clear). You shouldn’t feel guilty for wanting it or having it.
     BUT if what you really want is a relationship, then work on being the best female person you can be. Men can’t walk away from the best female person they’ve ever met. And if you truly cannot separate sex and relationship, then as EMK states, don’t have sex until he’s your BF. Otherwise, you’ll have to harden your heart.

104. Fusee 104

     @Tom #92: “Fusee and RW. As people who advocate not having sex for several months do you ever worry that there might be no chemistry after all the build-up? In my experience there’s absolutely no way to know if it’s there until you actually have sex, and does it matter to you if it’s not?”
      
     Hi Tom, just to clarify, I do NOT advocate not having sex for several months. I do not believe in “waiting for sex” for a set amount of time or number of dates. What I advocate is progressing to that level of intimacy when – whithin an already established budding relationship – it has been assessed that both parties are on the same page regarding general relationhip goals, are compatible in values and lifestyle and did not detect any deal-breakers. It really is a matter of values and wisdom and not a matter of rules and mind-games.
      
     The time needed to make that progress will greatly varies between relationships. If both parties click quickly and feel comfortable to talk intimately early on, it will move faster than if both people are more reserved. It also depends on what kind of dates they are engaging into. Some types of dates are more conducive to making progress in emotional intimacy than others.
      
     With my very first boyfriend it took months. He was the first and I was a teen. With my current boyfriend in our thirties, it took six weeks. Am I advocating to “wait” for six weeks? Nope. I’m advocating to progress first towards having enough intimacy that you both could can talk about what you are doing, what you desire, and what matters to you, and see if it makes sense to progress to such physical intimacy.
      
     I agree that sex is part of building a relationship and getting to know someone intimately. However this is the highest level of intimacy and therefore for me it has to be kept within special relationships. The physical journey has to parallel the emotional one: from hand shaking to hugging to holding hands to kissing on the cheek to kissing on the mouth to kissing more passionately to making out to cuddling to more intimate touch to sex. This is a journey and the time does not matter. What matters to me is matching physical progress with emotional progress.
      
     Makes sense?
      

105. Hope 105

     I’m really surprised to see how much heated debate this post has sparked.
      
     Going back to the original question that EMK based the blog on…I think it’s valid for a guy to wonder if a girl’s really into him if they’ve gone out on three real dates (not parties or ambiguous “is it a date?” hangouts) and she seems to be avoiding intimacy.  It seems like very few people in this comment thread have approached this question with the assumption that the guy might just be a regular, good guy who is really into the girl he’s invited out three times, and who naturally just wants to take things further.  Why wouldn’t he, right?  You’re hot, you’re charming, you act like you’re having a  really good time with him; he, being a man thinks about sex a lot; he’s psyched.
     I don’t think there’s anything wrong with wanting to wait longer,  of course, and I think that if a guy puts up a fight about it, obviously the relationship isn’t going to be compatible anyway.  But I think the whole business of “rules” about sexual timelines- either in terms of always expecting it by a certain point or always withholding it until a certain point, is bound to be a turn-off to the other person involved.

106. RW 106

     @Tom #92
     “I’d be interested to know why you think like you do if you’re not religious.”

     The cons of casual sex outweigh the pros for me.  I agree that sex as a whole is nothing shameful but it IS special.  If it wasn’t, we wouldn’t mind sleeping with many different partners at the same time and wouldn’t bother with monogamy.  When you’re horny, grab the nearest available consenting partner as long as you are taking the steps to be safe (in terms of avoiding pregnancy and STDs).  After all, you are just releasing sexual tensions.  Sex is both physical and emotional for me.  Sorry to be crude but horniness can be taken care of with one hand (or two ) and this applies to both men and women.  Sex with a partner is about the connection and I don’t want to establish that connection over and over and over again with different people.  When I do establish it, I want it to mean something or the experience is cheapened.  I don’t want to run into people who have seen my husband naked or who have seen me naked.  If there are only two or three of those, the chances of that happening are far less than if there are 30.  The other big reason is that I want to know that I like the person for who he really is and that there is a good chance I will want him in my life for keeps.  I want to know this before I start liking him for what his body can do to me.  That will fade over time.  Personality clicks will stick around for a bit longer or it is to be hoped they will anyway!  Far too many people stay in relationships because the sex is good.  It is perk of the relationship, not the other way around.

     As for sexual chemistry,  I agree, that is hit and miss.  But in most cases it is far easier to improve someone in the bedroom than it is to change personality or bad habits.  I guess it comes down to a personal decision here: is sex the most important thing to you in a relationship?  I find that leaving because the sexual chemistry is bad is easier than leaving because your partner has a gambling problem or a whatever else problem (the good sexual chemistry keeps you hooked for longer).

107. RW 107

     Sorry for the double post but I have another @Tom #92:

     If I read your post correctly, I respect your attitude because of its lack of hypocrisy…your daughter is going to be one happy girl with a liberal dad

     However, most people wouldn’t be okay with their 18 year old sleeping with someone new every 4 to 6 months or in some cases 4 to 6 weeks and less but they do accept that behaviour for themselves.  Again, not judging but wondering whether this is an age or experience thing, etc.  Does it become okay after you’ve passed a certain age or after you’ve had a certain amount of relationship experience?  

     Tom: I think you are in same happy situation as me: no kids yet.  I wonder if you might change your mind after the fact.  I wouldn’t know but I’ve been told having one changes everything.  Who knows…!

108. Fiona 108

     Tom, I think you’ll find your attitude changes a lot if you have a daughter. My Dad, who has always been a strong alpha male, actually choked back tears when he passed by while I was on skype to my mother last month telling her about the latest relationship where the guy disappeared after 3 months. He knows I’m sensitive and that I’ve been hurt a lot. He knows all I really wanted was a husband and a family and worst of all he knows he can’t do anything to help me find that or to stop me getting hurt again. He has also seen almost every player in town chase around after either my sister or me in our late teens and throughout our twenties (without much success but occasionally one passes himself of as relationship material) while we just wanted stable relationships. No man wants any of this for his baby girls -you just wait and see!

109. Margo 109

     @Evan #59, Of those women whose pants you were able to get into on dates 1,2, or 3, how many of did you ask to be your girlfriend? I hear it time and time again, on this blog and everywhere else, that almost always when the woman gives a man sex on dates 1,2, and 3, he declares that that is the reason he didn’t consider her relationship material. 

     You’ve acknowledged this numerous times on this blog yourself, Evan, as a warning to women who put out too soon. So, the man tries for sex really fast,  succeeds, then looks down on the woman and moves on leaving her feeling hurt and used. Does this sound like a decent man to you?

110. susan 110

     What a fascinating discussion.  In this part of the world there is a bit of an unwritten rule about the 3rd date….more so I think for younger than older people.
     however, I would say that the comment (Frank?) about a women not going slow with someone she likes hits the nail on the head.
     Add that to EMKs constant advice of only sleeping with someone who is your boy/girlfriend and that sums it up pretty well.
     I’ve followed EMKs advice carefully for the past 6 months, having suffered too many cuts and abrasions to my heart, and am now 6 weeks into an exlcusive relationship.  The commitment to exclusivity was made on date 5 and we spent literally hundreds of hours messaging and talking as well as talking in real life between first meeting and date 5.
     i’m sure that if i’d been ”up for it” sooner it would have happened but i was pretty clear on my expectations – no exclusive, no naked but also, when i’m sure i’m sure then it’ll happen for sure.
     A good guy will wait, as will a good woman, but at the end of the day whether it’s an hour, a week a month or a year, it’s only going to create something real if you both want it that way.

111. Paragon 111

     @ Mia

      ”Frank, what you describe happens all the time. In the last six months, I slept with a  ONS I knew for a few hours, went to third base by the fifth date with someone I was dating, slept with an old fwb and had a one week sexual fling out of town, but this week just had a seventh date with no nudity. Is the last guy a tool that I’m using? No, I like him A LOT. He has real relationship potential.”
      
     If you honestly feel that way, then don’t even consider squandering that potential by indulging casual sex on the side(he would never forgive you) – if he can wait, you surely can.
      
     “I don’t want to screw anything up and put pressure on things, or cloud my head, or prematurely force a “talk” – at this point”
      
     You might do well to communicate your intention to take it ‘slow’, as an indiction of your long-term expectations – that will reassure him.
      
     “But at the back of my head, I also know that men value women more who make them wait”
      
     You got that reversed Mia – men will wait for the women they value most.
      
     But, a woman CANNOT increase her value by making him wait.
      
     What this really comes down to is reputation and expectations.
      
     Whether women like it or not, they have earned a reputation for stringing along guys they don’t find attractive(and, conversely, putting out early for guys they find attractive), just as guys have earned a reputation for bolting after early sex.
      
     The problem is, that because of female expectations that a guy will bolt after early sex, some women try to compensate(for the guys they REALLY like) by making him wait – which only raises a red-flag that she is stringing him along into the friend zone.
      
     That’s why early communication is key, in dispelling uncertainty and doubt.
      

     @ Heather
      
      
     “It can be confusing, as a woman, to be told that we’re “easy” if we put out fairly soon, and “frigid” or have “trust issues” if we ask a guy to wait.”

     You’re only ‘easy’ to those guys who never valued you for a LTR anyway, and you are only ‘frigid’ to those guys who feel strung along(which isn’t to say they have designs on a LTR, which is why early communication is the key).
      
      
     @ amy

     “I can understand a guy getting angry if he found out that a woman was sleeping with someone on the side and telling you she wanted to take it slow….But many women have f-buddies just for this reason: to keep sex separate so they can choose the right guy. They are pushing you off for a while because they really really like you and want to see you clearly. so they’re sleeping with someone else, like eating before a wedding — so you won’t be too hungry.
      
     Usually, if they’re really into you they’ll dump the lover. It just takes the edge off dating.”
      
     Trainwreck.
      
     I’ve seen alot of bad rationalizations(advice?) offered on this blog, but this is perhaps the most deluded.
      

     @ Karmic Equation
      
      
     “BUT if what you really want is a relationship, then work on being the best female person you can be. Men can’t walk away from the best female person they’ve ever met. And if you truly cannot separate sex and relationship, then as EMK states, don’t have sex until he’s your BF. Otherwise, you’ll have to harden your heart.”
      
      
     Hard to argue with that.

112. Heather 112

     @ Mia:

     I totally understand your need to vent.  I went out on two dates with a guy, really liked him, but he decided to lie to me about why he was cancelling our third date,  I was more angry about the lie, than him ditching, really.  So, I went out with my girlfriend for martinis, and we mocked the guy.  Shamelessly.  It was all in good fun, over great martinis, and we had a blast.  I vented, got it out of my system, and was done.  My girlfriends were a wonderful forum for me to vent, as well as couple of gay men, who got such a kick out of my descriptions of the dates.  Alot of my venting was very tongue in cheek, but it helped me vent frustration instead of sitting and simmering. 

     It’s frustrating to be a woman in this day and age, but it sounds like you’re handling it pretty well over there.  And I do agree with you that being intimate with someone you’ve already known offline, can be easier than with someone you met online.  Now there are times where online people are people you can develop some kind of bond with before meeting in person, depending on the situation, but I get where you’re coming from.

113. Wendy 113

     @Tom #99: Well, he hasn’t given up having sex with other women so that argument’s out. What else you got?

     I was so intrigued by this topic that I decided to talk about it with him last night. I know, I know…the dreaded “RELATIONSHIP” talk (I can hear you all chastizing me from afar).  I asked him, “Why should I feel special when I know your history?” (He’s always been very open and honest about his need to have sex…a LOT of sex…with a LOT of women.) His response to me was, “What I have with you is love, what I have with them is just sex.” So there we go again with the “sex is just sex” philosophy. It wasn’t exactly what I wanted to hear, but I guess I need to accept that this is the way people are today, both men AND women. I don’t see things changing after a year of dating, so I realize I just need to get over myself. It still makes me sad, though!

     @Karmic Equation #103: I don’t WANT to slip away from this guy. He’s good to me, we have a lot of fun and enjoy each other’s company. I’ve had a helluva time finding that! The only thing I would change is that “special” feeling I’d like to have to go along with the sex. But I know I can’t change the bed-hopping, partner-changing philosophy that society doesn’t just accept as the new normal, but now encourages. No wonder people are walking around hurt and confused all the time! Truthfully, I couldn’t care less what society thinks of me, and I don’t think of myself as a “bad” girl for having sex outside of a relationship. I want a “relationship” because I really like the feeling of security a good one gives me, knowing there’s someone on my side when I have a day where I feel like the world’s against me, and believing I’m making someone else’s life a little better because I’m in it. I’m sorry, but I just don’t get a sense of any of that when I’m popping in and out of different beds, bathrooms, alleys, cars, etc. every night like everyone else. And you mention that cheating is not ok, but…if sex is just sex to you, like just another thing you do every day such as having a cup of coffee, watching the news, or reading a book, then why would you care if your guy is having sex (or drinking coffee or watching the news or reading a book) with someone else? You sound like you want it both ways. Exclusive meaningless sex. Is that all we can hope to strive for anymore?

114. Karmic Equation 114

     @Fiona 102

     Apparently, yes, I am in the minority. What I’m saying is that I shouldn’t be. I don’t accept that women must “continue” to be hurt if men disappear on them. It is our expectation of what happens after sex that leads us to be hurt…as if sex is some magic potion that ensures men WON’T disappear, as if this “means” if they disappear that there is something wrong with us or with the men.
     No, I don’t accept this, and neither should any other woman. Because this is just another way of saying MEN must be the ones to change, not us women. Well, that’s not going to happen. We can’t change other people, only ourselves. So if we don’t like being hurt either don’t have sex until you’re BOTH in love or retrain your brains/heart not to be hurt. And you can do tis simply by resetting your default “after sex” expectations.

     If your “after sex” default setting is to expect that men will NOT call, then you will set yourself up to be happily surprised when they do, as opposed to having a default of expecting a call and they don’t, which can only cause you pain. After all if they don’t call, which is what you expected, why would you be hurt?

     Again, I’m going to be a heretic here…Sex itself is not special. Who says it’s special? Society? YOur mom? Your dad? (They had agendas to keep their little girls pure, so you have to take what they said with a grain of salt). Sex is biological, a function to propagate the species. Sex by itself is “beautiful” not necessarily special…What is special is sex “with love” – But how can you love someone by the 2nd or 3rd date? You really can’t. If you do, you have other problems.

     And I can tell you from personal experience that sex with love isn’t always special, because sometimes even with love, sex isn’t all that great or special (hence my divorce).

     Separate sex from relationship expectations and you will empower yourself.

     I’m not advocating sleeping around…I don’t…but I can if I wanted to. And when I want to, I have no guilt and no expectations…which coincidentally seems to draw the men towards me and inspire them to want a relationship with me in spite of themselves. I’m dating a very confused player right now…a confusion which I caused, btw…and I’m loving every minute of his confusion. I have no idea if this will result in an exclusive relationship because he doesn’t know. I’ll know when he figures it out. I’m not looking for a relationship, but if one happens and I think he’s worth it, we’ll have a realtionship. In the meanwhile, I live my life just as happily without him as with him…which drives him batsh*t crazy. It’s awesome.

115. Selena 115

     @Wendy

     This thread has been about when people decide to have sex with each other and expectations surrounding it. I haven’t seen anyone discuss the expectation of being in a non-monogamous relationship for a year – much less indefinetly. I don’t know how you are drawing conclusions “that’s the way people are today”.

     You’ve chosen a relationship with someone who’s been open with you about wanting a LOT of sex, with a LOT of women. That’s not what the rest of us are choosing. If this fellow’s companionship is worth it to you to continue, that’s on you. I’d find such a long term situation repellent.

116. Michael17 116

     What I want as a guy is a woman who isn’t sleeping with anyone else when we are dating. I won’t put up with being on her “slow track” *WITH ME* while she is getting it on with someone else, be it an FWB or a close friend of a close friend (sorry Mia), even though I get amy’s rationale. I won’t hold it against her for sleeping with me on the first date (happened before) and no I’m not naive to assume that I am the first guy she has done that with or that she has sex only in relationships.

     So with the above in mind, there’s no contradiction about us moving deliberately to the bedroom. Hope #105 is right in that if we like you and are attracted to you, we will want to have sex with you.

     There is also what I said earlier too though. Until we are exclusive, we know that you are probably seeing another guy. We also know that, if we want a relationship with you, the first guy to sleep with you will probably be the one to get that, no matter who your first choice was before.

117. Karmic Equation 117

     @Wendy 113

     Again, you’re mixing sex and relationship expectations.

     They don’t go together for men. Having great sex with you doesn’t mean man’s going want a relationship with you. And having a great relationship with you doesn’t mean a man’s going to want to want you to be his girlfriend.

     Men can have sex without love. And some men I know can have love without sex (but this is more difficult, of course).

     I think the question you need to ask yourself is why is it so important that you have a relationship with a man to provide all the goodness you provide? All the things you listed you can be to your girl-friends, to guy-friends, to your parents or siblings. You don’t need a man to give all the things you want to give nor receive all things you want to receive.

     I am dating a guy who is non-exclusive with me. And I am non-exclusive with him. I see this as a pro, not a con. Because I get to have great sex with him…and explore other options without any guilt. So does it bother me that he sleeps around, yes…because I’m possessive (THAT IS MINE, darn it, even though it literally belongs to him ) — not because I’m afraid he’ll fall in love with his other girls and dump me. There will be no dumping because we’re not in a relationship. We’ll fade or we’ll grow closer. Those are the only two open routes.
      
     I’m in no hurry to be in a relationship (they are so much work!). I’m having a blast with him in bed and out…so I just live in the moment with him. You should really try it. Say to yourself over and over…there is no yesterday and no tomorrow, just this moment. And you’ll really learn to not get worked about your lack of relationship.

118. Fiona 118

     Karmic,

     If you are happy as you are, fair enough although if you say you feel possessive towards the man you are sleeping with, I do wonder. However, I don’t think it is fair to say that you ‘shouldn’t’ be in the minority. I, like many women, feel bonded to a man I sleep with by the oxytocin overdose and I get hurt if he leaves me. For this reason, I don’t sleep with anyone until I am in a relationship because although I am just about prepared to get hurt again in the pursuit of love I am not prepared to be hurt by a one night stand. 

119. Tom 119

     RW
     I may have been a bit blithe in my earlier assertion that there’s nothing particularly special about sex – I can appreciate how it can be special in the context of a relationship. You hit the nail on the head here: “is sex the most important thing to you in a relationship?” I suppose if you are looking at it with a life-time commitment in mind the importance of hot sex seems frivolous – I haven’t reached that maturity yet.

     I don’t see why it’s a problem to run into people who have seen you or your husband naked though!

     Fusee
     Thanks for your response – which makes sense  I follow your logic and I think it’s similar to what Evan advocates, i.e. establishing that your goals and values are aligned rather than setting an arbitrary timeline.

     Margo
     “When the woman gives a man sex on dates 1, 2 or 3 he declares that that is the reason he didn’t consider her relationship material”

     I’ve never known a man to declare that – how hypocritical and judgemental would that be! I think Paragon makes an important point here – “a woman CANNOT increase her value by making him wait.” I.e. a man’s view of you regarding suitability for a relationship is formed irrespective of when you have sex – so why would you worry about what he thinks? Just do it whenever suits you.

     Fiona
     “I think you’ll find your attitude changes a lot if you have a daughter…no man wants any of this for his baby girls”
     
     I accept that it’s impossible to know now how one would feel in that situation, however, I still maintain that if there’s nothing inherently wrong, shameful or negative about sex then it shouldn’t be a problem for my daughter to enjoy it either. It would be very unfair of me to expect my daughter to abide by a different standard than I would set myself.

     Wendy
     “well, he hasn’t given up having sex with other women…I’m popping in and out of different beds, bathrooms, alleys, cars etc. every night like everyone else”
     
     Well you certainly have an unusual relationship dynamic there, but you don’t “need to accept that this is the way people are today.” Accept what is right for you and if you’re not fully satisfied with your current situation change it!

120. Jay 120

     Women nowadays are dating too many guys simultaneously… especially if she is using online dating sites. Therefore, for us, sex is a way to make the relationship for exclusive or at least validate that she’s sufficiently interested. 

     Women get tons of message per day from online dating sites and the attractive ones get checked out many times in real life. How are we suppose to know how much a woman likes us by just taking her out to dinner?

     I agree with other commenters in that it’s better to be rejected by the third date than to be rejected by the third month. We don’t want to wait three months before knowing that she’d fall in love (and had sex with) another date.

121. Julia 121

     @Karmic I think its nice that you found a situation that works for you. The majority of women who read this blog, however, are looking for a monogamous LTR that might eventually lead to marriage. That situation doesn’t work for most of us.

122. Evan Marc Katz 122

     @Margo - You haven’t apologized and you haven’t left the blog either. Here’s just a quick refutation of everything you believe – a study from Dr. Helen Fisher: “Random hook-ups can lead to serious relationships. 35 percent of the people surveyed segued from a one-night-stand to a long-term commitment.” Oh, and I married my first-night hookup (we didn’t sleep together, but we did other stuff).

     You just don’t seem to understand grey, Margo – only black and white. The reason women shouldn’t sleep with men too quickly are because a) SHE might get hurt if she doesn’t know that HE’s relationship oriented and because b) he MIGHT be the kind of guy who devalues women who have sex too soon. For this, I advocate foreplay – acknowledging male attraction and sexual desire without making him wrong (like you do). I also recommend withholding intercourse until you know that a) you can handle the possibility that he’s not your boyfriend or b) until you know that he wants to be your boyfriend.

     However, your original comment said that men who try for sex on dates 1-3 are creeps, pervs and potential rapists. I’ve already proven to you that you’re wrong. If YOU don’t want to date men like that, fine. But since I’M a man like that, I’m pretty sure that there are other good guys out there who are similar. So please, go away now.

123. Wendy 123

     @Tom 119: I have to agree with Margo on this one. I know several of my girlfriends have experienced this hypocrisy, too, so it’s not as uncommon as you might think. I slept with a man on the first date only ONCE in my life, and while we tried to continue dating and move on from it, he just couldn’t get past the idea that I was a slut and it ended ugly. I will NEVER do that again. I totally agree that you can increase your value if you wait, at least for a few dates. As long as it’s not the first date (my new rule of thumb), I’ll have sex with a man whenever he wants it. You have to if you want him to call again. Even the man I’m seeing now has told me that any woman who sleeps with a guy on the first date has to be a “special kind of stupid” to think she’ll ever see him again, but if he liked the sex, then he just might call her so don’t give up hope. However, I don’t think I’ve ever known a man who would wait for sex until he was “in love” or prepared to label himself “the boyfriend.” That would take way too long!

     Also, if I waited for what is right for me (getting to know the guy BEFORE sleeping with him), I’d die a lonely old woman! My personal experience has been that a guy won’t stick around if he isn’t getting any, and you can’t get to know someone who isn’t there.  So as far as the “sex-by-the-third-date” rule goes, I think it’s pretty normal (and necessary if you want a fourth!).

124. K 124

     I’m open to whatever makes a man or woman comfortable.  I’m in line with Evan’s view that there is nothing inherently wrong, but you may have to plan to be emotionally secure before you do something.  I take my time, because taking my time works for me and is in my best interest.  If my dating life sucked as result maybe I’d change my mind, but it doesn’t.
     @Wendy, I don’t think I have ever had sex on date 3.  I get plenty of dates 4s and 5s and so forth.  Often I end it after date 3, if I can’t see myself wanting to have sex with him at some point in the future.  I don’t think I’m that uncommon.  I also have some friends who think they can’t get the next date if they don’t sleep with a guy.  It might be about perception.

125. amy 125

     @wendy #123
     you don’t sound like you’re doing what you want at all when you say
     ’ll have sex with a man whenever he wants it. You have to if you want him to call again.
     I hope that’s not the case.

126. amy 126

     and to paragon #111 who called my post (it wasn’t advice, just telling it like it is) a “train wreck.”
     Women — myself included — are crazy. we glom onto guys and can’t see them clearly. We want them for all sorts of reasons, for our ego, beccause we want to be loved, because we like attention, because our father didn’t love us — so many things that don’t have to do with the man himself.
     I can say this now because I’m married and I wonder about so many of the guys I liked in the past, and am watching several of my friends who are chasing guys who have nothing in common with them. Some women do better to have some FWB just to see clearly.
     Of course, if they meet someone they really like, they’d end that relatinship.
      

127. Karmic Equation 127

     @Julia @Fiona

     I understand what everyone is looking for. I don’t understand the angst and seeming desperation behing the search.

     Who’s to say my relationship won’t become an LTR? All I”m saying is that I”m not looking for one. I’m not “campaigning” for one. But that doesn’t mean it’s not going to happen. I guess I like “organically-developed” relationships – no timelines, no expectations. The relationship is because it was meant to be with both people working equivalently to build it. (I’m a romantic heretic )

     Don’t angst about sex. If you don’t want to do it, don’t do it. If you want to do it, do it. But don’t *expect* a call back no matter how great it was for you. There is no guarantee of a relationship whether you have sex or withhold sex. Withholding sex just allows you time to assess the guy and his intent. There’s no guarantee you won’t be hurt the longer you hold out. There’s no guarantee that he won’t disappear eventually, even if you marry him. Because if you’re not the best female person he’s ever met and haven’t addressed the causes of your driving-men-away behaviors, he may eventually disappear.

     Address your insecurities and causes of driving-men-away behaviors at the “grassroots” level. Then everything else will fall into place and you’ll like yourself, man or no man. And when you do, the men will flock to you. Men like women who like themselves.

128. Fiona 128

     Karmic, I like myself and have enough self respect not to sleep with men while they sleep with other women. Say what you want about my driving men away behaviour. I know all I want is to love and loved and I do not consider sleeping around or sharing a man with other women to achieve that. 

129. Fiona 129

     The real question for me Karmic is do you like yourself? 

130. Philly Ashley 130

     Dating is crazy these days. I’ve found that a lot of men want sex on the first date, or at least to get physical. I don’t kiss on the first date, and that seems to be an issue. Guys want to have some sort of physical contact or it seems they think they are wasting their time or money on you. Its like they won’t bother putting in the effort since there are so many women out there who give it up with much less effort on their part. I stick to my values and what is comfortable for me but its depressing. Its like where are all the gentlemen?

131. Kurt 131

     Philly, it is unfortunate, but a lot of women lose interest in a man if he doesn’t at least try to kiss her on the first date if it is a real date, not just  a coffee-type of meet-up.

132. Michelle 132

     “Address your insecurities and causes of driving-men-away behaviors at the “grassroots” level. Then everything else will fall into place and you’ll like yourself, man or no man. And when you do, the men will flock to you. Men like women who like themselves.”

     This is the answer #127, well said…

133. Wendy 133

     I’d be willing to bet a lot of money that the folks who are more casual about sex (have it when you want it, don’t have it when you don’t, what-EV-er!) are also very attractive individuals who can get it pretty much any time they want it. They don’t have a clue what it’s like for the rest of us who don’t get the same opportunities. I think the reason I attach so much meaning to sex and hope so desperately that it will turn into a relationship is because I’m lucky if I get a shot at it only every three years or so. I like myself and am happy with the person I am, but I am also honest about my looks and rate myself around a 4-5. Those of you who are higher up on the scale who have to beat men off every time you go  to the grocery store (c’mon–you KNOW you do!) can’t possibly understand the difference in dating dynamics that we have to deal with. I’d love to know how a person’s attractiveness changes the game when it comes to “sex on the third date, or wait?”

134. Karmic Equation 134

     @Fiona

     Yes ma’am. Never been happier with myself or with my life.

     I don’t have an exclusivity pact with the guy I”m dating, so it’s his *as well as my* prerogative to date others, and even sleep with others if we so choose. So words like “cheating” or “sharing” have no place in our relationship right now.

     I don’t sleep around. I’m a serial monogamist But my current guy doesn’t know that. I’m unreachable often enough that he wonders where I am and what I’m doing. Knowing him, he probably wonders who I’m doing…I just let him think what he wants to think. I know he doesn’t like thinking about me with other guys, so this is just my way of getting him to feel that feeling so that if/when the Exclusivity Talk needs to be had, he’ll know what I’m talking about when I say I don’t like that feeling.

     You make it sound like because I’m ok being non-exclusive with him that somehow shows my dislike of myself. You couldn’t be more wrong. The reality is that this guy has been a player all his adult life. He lives every guys dream of having a modern day harem. Women just give him their number unsolicited. He’s only known me for less than 5 months. I’m not going to change his mindset that was 15 years in the making in 5 months. That’s unrealistic.

     Since I’m unclear myself whether I want a relationship (remember I recently ended a 6 yr relationship and don’t feel like investing the effort into a new one just yet, hence a playah-fling is just what the doctor ordered) — it’s unfair to expect or ask that from him. And, realistically, *WHY* would he become exclusive with me when variety has been so easily the spice of his life?

     All that said, surprisingly he’s been escalating the relationship, pretty much on Evan’s 2-3 month timeline. He’s planning vacations with me in the future. So things are progressing. And depending on his actions, I’ll know whether he’s become exclusive even without the Exclusivity Talk. Only time and his consistency will tell if he’s sincere about this relationship.

     I like the direction this is heading, but I’m in no hurry to get to the destination. I like his company, he likes mine…and we spend as much time together as possible. That’s all that really matters at this point in time. If I continue to be the best female person I can be, he won’t be able to walk away…But you know what? I could if he’s not the best guy he can be. It’s a two-way street. I never forget that.

135. JB 135

     Interesting article on this topic:

     http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2188819/Dating-milestones-revealed-new-survey.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

136. nathan 136

     Wendy, the people I have known who are into casual sex are across the board in the looks department. It’s not just hot folks with endless opportunities, nor is it a small subset of people who only engage in casual sex and are never, or rarely, in relationships. Odds are, even with average looks, you’d find interested sex partners if you had no attachment to seeing them again or gaining a relationship. I’m not saying you should do that. It’s not really my approach to sex either. But I do think what you focus on changes the outcome. Wanting a long term relationship means eliminating a fair percentage of folks who either don’t want that, or aren’t sure they want that.
      
     I’ve known plenty of folks who are like Karmic, not ready for something serious following a long term relationship and so are much more flexible around sex and dating goals. Many of the same folks move back towards wanting a long term relationship again after six months or a year. More than one person has said to me something like “I needed to experiment. I needed some freedom to learn about myself more, and not be beholden to a single person and the work of maintaining a serious relationship.” 
      
     Frankly, Karmic’s overall attitude is really open and lacking the struggle and angst that so many folks seem to have. Regardless of your goals and desires in the dating/relationship realm, I think that openness and non-attachment to outcome are really key to being happy with your life.
      

137. Karmic Equation 137

     @Wendy 133

     Hi Wendy. Ratings are kind of relative, you know. And one guys 9 is another guys 6. And it’s age dependent.

     I’m 45. Told I look 35…So when I date within my normal dating age group (40-55), I’m probably an 8 in looks. But since younger men find me attractive and I them, I’m probably a 6-7 when I date younger.

     Looks are just one factor. Looks determine whether a man wants to sleep with you, but it’s your personality that keeps them.

     If you want to consistently “have a shot”, then you’ll need to work on your looks first and personality 2nd. Sad, but true.

     If your looks are something you can do something about, e.g., if you’re overweight, then go the gym and go on a diet. If you don’t have a pretty face, go to department stores and other places that will teach to put on make up so that you do the best with what you have. If you have money or can save money, get plastic surgery if you must. (Catherine Zeta-Jones wasn’t born that gorgeous, you know). Learn to dress to maximize your assets and minimize your debits(??).

     From what I’ve read everywhere, men are visual creatures, so yeah you do have to look good enough (keeping in mind that “enough” is relative and subjective) to have a shot.

     That’s kind of the bad news.

     The good news is girls that are ok with one-night stands “get can play out of their league”: http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2011/08/women-get-to-play-out-of-their-league.html

     Not sure if this gives you hope or makes you sad, but it is what it is. Good luck, hon.

138. Fiona 138

     Fair enough Karmic. It sounds like you are not sure what you want but I would be inclined to give up any thoughts of a monogamy with that guy ever. Why would he go from being non-exclusive with you to being exclusive? You’ve already shown him that he can have you and other women at the same time and I can’t see him being too happy if the boundaries change. Then again, I am not a man or a player so maybe I am wrong here.

139. Karmic Equation 139

     Hi Fiona, that thought has crossed my mind. When I’m ready for a boyfriend and he hasn’t asked, I’ll let him know that’s what I’m looking for. Then if doesn’t step up, it will be time to say good bye. But that’s a ways down the road…

140. K 140

     @Wendy, fair enough thanks for the honesty and I didn’t think of it that way.  But if you consider yourself a 4-5, and assuming you are dating a 4-5 isn’t it  possible that guy doesn’t get a shot but every few years as well?  If he really likes you and you want to wait, I would imagine he would do it.  I don’t think the gals I know who take it slow are any hotter than my take it fast friends. 
      
     @Karmic, we are so different, but that doesn’t mean I can’t take an ounce of your advice and apply it.  Thanks for sharing.  I was getting upset the other day that a man I kissed on a first date didn’t call me (he did a few days later).  I realized that it was a really fun night out and a great kiss, need to learn maybe that is enough and think less about outcomes as you can’t control them.

141. Hayley 141

     What I don’t agree with here is the thought that women don’t to have sex with a man, but they must fool around with him to keep him interested. This is utter rubbish, if a guy really likes you, he won’t be put off by lack of action, nor by the fact that he doesn’t think you are interested by date 3. A guy will only be put off by these factors if he only wants sex or if he is not that interested. My best friend had a guy pursue her for a year, although she always rejected him. Well he wasn’t getting any from her but he did everything in his power to win her, which he finally did.

     Maybe we are too available, too scared of not finding someone that we are lowering our standards and making it too easy and too little of a challenge. After all, if we really have to work hard to get something, we view that something as a lot more precious than if it came easy.

142. Evan Marc Katz 142

     @Hayley: “What I don’t agree with here is the thought that women don’t to have sex with a man, but they must fool around with him to keep him interested. This is utter rubbish, if a guy really likes you, he won’t be put off by lack of action, nor by the fact that he doesn’t think you are interested by date 3. A guy will only be put off by these factors if he only wants sex or if he is not that interested.”

     Let’s try something, shall we? Between the two of us, who is the man? That’s right. Me.

     So while YOU may think it’s utter rubbish because YOU don’t operate that way and your best friend’s boyfriend doesn’t operate like that, MANY men, including me, operate like that way. If you don’t show interest in me pretty quickly, I’m going to assume you’re not interested. Duh.

     Your statement, “If a guy really likes you, he won’t be put off by lack of action, nor the fact that he doesn’t think you’re interested by Date 3″ is, on its surface, absurd.

     Keep refusing to kiss men, keep refusing to show interest, and see how many men stick around.

     I’ll keep coaching my women that all men want is for you to kiss them and show them interest, so it’s in YOUR best interest to do so.

     Leave the dating coaching to me and I’ll leave to you all the pathetic men who will pursue you for a year without getting laid.

143. Ruby 143

     Wendy # 133
      
     Several months ago I met a woman who had a polyamorous lifestyle. She was married, but also had a boyfriend AND a girlfriend. She was surprisingly average looking, but I would say very outgoing and sure of herself. I’ve had other friends who are quite attractive, but haven’t had many partners because they are shy and lack confidence, despite their looks. 
      
     @Karmic Equation: Your player friend sounds like a good transition guy. Maybe placing no pressure on him will give him the space he needs to get closer to you. OTOH, he may not actually take the relationship-y things like vacation planning all that seriously, and might be seeing you more as a fun traveling companion.

144. Fiona 144

     I can only assume the guy who pursued for a year also pursued other women. I find that there are men that I wasn’t interested in six months ago who still try to get me  to go out with them now. I assume that they are not having much success elsewhere and are therefore trying again on the off chance that I might have changed my mind in the interim rather than because they especially like me.

145. Selena 145

     I am the only woman who thinks kissing is an indication of her own level of sexual attraction to someone?

146. Karmic Equation 146

     @Hayley

     I had 6 dates in three weeks with my ex-husband when he was courting me. No action other than a long lingering kiss after every date. I fell in love with his personality and overall wonderfulness and devotion and had sex with him at date 7. The sex was ok. Not mind blowing. Not the best I ever had, not the worst. But you know what? We had declared to each other we were in love and I felt like a jerk if I told him I wanted to break up with him. I also thought, “Gee, what a shallow person I must be to want to not be with this wonderful man because the sex is just ho hum.” So, guess what. We married two years later. Our sexual activties decreased from several times a month, to quarterly, to bi-annually, then finally to celibacy in the final two years of our marriage.

     So after this experience, I decided the traditional route of platonic dating and only having sex after falling in love was not for me. I made a vow that next time, I’d have sex early to determine if the sex was good enough to warrant a relationship.

     Which is what I did. The next person I slept with was a one-night stand that turned into a 6-year relationship. The sex was worth having a relationship for.

     I imagine that my solution mirrors a man’s relationship thought process in default mode.

147. Karmic Equation 147

     @Selena
     I think it depends on how you’re kissing them

148. Karmic Equation 148

     @Ruby
     Good points. Be assured I will be monitoring his actions to see where his mind’s actually at. I’m ok with either outcome at the moment. It will only really matter when my heart/brain returns to relationship-ready mode. This is a relationship sure, but it’s not a “relationship-relationship.” LOL

149. David T 149

     @Karmic

     134 I don’t sleep around. I’m a serial monogamist Description: But my current guy doesn’t know that. I’m unreachable often enough that he wonders where I am and what I’m doing. Knowing him, he probably wonders who I’m doing…I just let him think what he wants to think. I know he doesn’t like thinking about me with other guys, so this is just my way of getting him to feel that feeling so that if/when the Exclusivity Talk needs to be had, he’ll know what I’m talking about when I say I don’t like that feeling.

     But you also said:

     98 Even this situation. I would only feel vulnerable if I *want* a relationship and he’s stringing me along.

     103 “chemically, your BODY is making you bond with the guy, not really your “emotions.”
     Fight the guilt or acknowledge that your physiology is having an unpleasant side effect”

     114 Sex itself is not special. Who says it’s special?

     114 Separate sex from relationship expectations and you will empower yourself.

          True dat, but I don’t think it is possible to do more than deny what sex makes us feel and try to ignore that feeling. We can become practiced in that denial and even make it reflexive. What you said in 134 shows you are failing to completely deny the bond you are creating.

          You have the prerogative to sleep around, but you don’t.  Sounds like sex is special to you, at least sex with this one man.   You have higher hopes than you want to admit, because it sex with him has become important to you on an emotional level.  Whether this “unpleasant side effect” is a brain chemical addiction is irrelevant, it has hit your emotions and you are addicted to this man.

          Do you see how your tone in 134 is very much at odds with your intellectual expression of sex without emotional bonding? You are trying to “get him to feel that feeling” and yet you are not vulnerable? Why would you care how he feels if you are not vulnerable? You claim to have control over how sex bonds you, and yet in 134 you are talking about manipulating your player’s emotional response to sex so that he might want to be exclusive with you (if you decide you want that.  I think you have decided, but have not admitted it to yourself). My goal is not to prove you wrong but to point out a very real dissonance between what you are telling yourself and us and what you seem to be feeling for this man.   This can set you up for a hard fall.

          He is confused because he is having a harder time denying his bond to you as it deepens. That doesn’t mean he will learn to let go of this denial that sex bonds him to every woman he shares himself with. Given: his player past (and present!); that he seems to love you and still sleeps with other women; is jealous of the idea of you being with other guys; the outcome is you will successfully convince him to make you a promise that he has no intention of keeping. You’ll be at the top of his harem (for a while, anyway) and he will try to hide the fact of his harem from you. Take a long look in the  mirror  and be darn sure you really do not care if he is ever exclusive with you. I think you already want that.
      

     114 I’m not advocating sleeping around…I don’t…but I can if I wanted to. And when I want to, I have no guilt and no expectations…
          So put it to the test.  Sleep with someone else.  Will you have no guilt? Can you do this without  If you don’t you are safe continuing with your player.  If you do, you are setting yourself up for a fall and the longer you go, the harder it is going be. Sounds like you have a happy life with or without him, so you will rebound if I am right about all this, but expect some pain coming your way.
     Good luck lady, you need it.

150. Karmic Equation 150

     @David T
     
     True dat, but I don’t think it is possible to do more than deny what sex makes us feel and try to ignore that feeling. We can become practiced in that denial and even make it reflexive. What you said in 134 shows you are failing to completely deny the bond you are creating.

     I never said I haven’t bonded. I don’t deny that I have feelings for him. I like him. I treat him like a sex object sometimes. But I like him. I never said it won’t hurt if the relationship ends. But I’m not afraid of the potential pain. It won’t stop me from continuing.
     
     
     
     You have the prerogative to sleep around, but you don’t.  Sounds like sex is special to you, at least sex with this one man.   You have higher hopes than you want to admit, because it sex with him has become important to you on an emotional level.  Whether this “unpleasant side effect” is a brain chemical addiction is irrelevant, it has hit your emotions and you are addicted to this man.

     Nope. I sleep with men I’m attracted to. It just so happens I’m attracted to one man at a time? Well, seriously, my biology seems to be that I start finding new men attractive as the current relationship is on its last legs. I can’t say that I’m monogamous because sex is special to me…but rather that the “relationship” is special? This is the best I can explain it.

     Do you see how your tone in 134 is very much at odds with your intellectual expression of sex without emotional bonding? You are trying to “get him to feel that feeling” and yet you are not vulnerable? Why would you care how he feels if you are not vulnerable? You claim to have control over how sex bonds you, and yet in 134 you are talking about manipulating your player’s emotional response to sex so that he might want to be exclusive with you (if you decide you want that.  I think you have decided, but have not admitted it to yourself). My goal is not to prove you wrong but to point out a very real dissonance between what you are telling yourself and us and what you seem to be feeling for this man.   This can set you up for a hard fall.

     You took this somewhat out of context…My exact words were “I know he doesn’t like thinking about me with other guys, so this is just my way of getting him to feel that feeling so that *if/when the Exclusivity Talk needs to be had,* he’ll know what I’m talking about when I say I don’t like that feeling.

     Yes, manipulation to some degree. However, the reasoning is that if I end up having an exclusivity talk with him in the future and have to refer to how I don’t like his sleeping around I can relate it to “his” feeling when he thought I was sleeping around.

     We may never get to the point where we have this talk. The relationship may end before this. Or he may surprise me in a good way. I don’t know what he’s thinking about this. Do I hope? perhaps. But will I freak out if this doesn’t come to pass? No. Will I hurt if he says “No, baby, I’ll keep sleeping with whomever I want”, very likely. Will I be “devastated”? No. Will I think all men are jerks? No. Will I think HE’s a jerk? No. Will I think I was stupid? Nope. What would I do differently next time? Maybe not date a player? Maybe date a player with fewer obvious options? Who knows?

     He is confused because he is having a harder time denying his bond to you as it deepens. That doesn’t mean he will learn to let go of this denial that sex bonds him to every woman he shares himself with. Given: his player past (and present!); that he seems to love you and still sleeps with other women; is jealous of the idea of you being with other guys; the outcome is you will successfully convince him to make you a promise that he has no intention of keeping. You’ll be at the top of his harem (for a while, anyway) and he will try to hide the fact of his harem from you. Take a long look in the  mirror  and be darn sure you really do not care if he is ever exclusive with you. I think you already want that.

     I’ve already thought of this possibility. He’s a man of his word, player or not. So if he gives his word he will keep it, or at least have every intention of keeping it (let’s be realistic). Being a player doesn’t mean he’s totally devoid of morals. If just means he doesn’t have any when it comes to women. So, if he promises exclusivity, it will be because he loves me. He wouldn’t promise it otherwise. Once the promise is given if he cheats, it will mean he doesn’t love me anymore. I’ll end the relationship. Will it hurt? Sure. Will I be devastated? Yes. But I should be then. We would have been in a bona-fide relationship. If I weren’t hurt I’d be inhuman.
      

     114 I’m not advocating sleeping around…I don’t…but I can if I wanted to. And when I want to, I have no guilt and no expectations…
          So put it to the test.  Sleep with someone else.  Will you have no guilt? Can you do this without  If you don’t you are safe continuing with your player.  If you do, you are setting yourself up for a fall and the longer you go, the harder it is going be. Sounds like you have a happy life with or without him, so you will rebound if I am right about all this, but expect some pain coming your way.
     Good luck lady, you need it.

     Send another hot, sexy player my way and yeah I’ll gladly sleep with him to see if I feel any guilt. Are you offering?

151. Evan Marc Katz 151

     @Margo, a class act who decided to tell me that I’m “nasty, arrogant, self-righteous” because I defended myself from being accused of being a “perverted sleazebag and rapist” in her post #58. 

     If defending myself from insults from strangers means that I’m nasty, arrogant and self-righteous, I’ll wear that label proudly. I’m ridiculously happy in my relationship and thrilled with the readers who come here to learn and discuss, rather than casually tossing off ill-thought, emotionally charged insults. You seem to forget: YOU insulted ME. Would you want to come to work to receive an insulting post-it note on your desk each day? Didn’t think so. You’d probably complain to management about it. The good thing about this job is that I AM management.

     And every time I ban some shrill, petty, illogical person like you, I feel better that I can go through my day without having to fend off attacks from anonymous strangers. If you put yourself in my position, you’d do the exact same thing.

     But your inability to put yourself in someone else’s shoes (say, a man who makes a first move on Date 2), is exactly what put you in this predicament.

     Have a great weekend and big props to the man who is able to overlook your ability to insult him and then blame him for defending himself.

152. David T 152

     Karmic150 Well, seriously, my biology seems to be that I start finding new men attractive as the current relationship is on its last legs. I can’t say that I’m monogamous because sex is special to me…but rather that the “relationship” is special? This is the best I can explain it.
          Sounds like monogamy is hardwired into you.  This does not sound like “sex isn’t special” and “I can sleep with whomever/whenever with no guilt/hopes.” At the least “sex” and “relationship’ are inextricably intertwined for you.
     
     Karmic150 My exact words were . . . *if/when the Exclusivity Talk needs to be had,* he’ll know what I’m talking about when I say I don’t like that feeling.

          I saw the “if.” My point was that the fact that you care at all about the outcome of such a hypothetical discussion means you are invested beyond “sex with him is nice when it happens and I don’t care who else he sleeps with.” You know your mind and heart better than I can, I am pointing out inconsistencies that you might want to think about to understand what is going on inside you.

     Karmic150 if he gives his word he will keep it, or at least have every intention of keeping it (let’s be realistic). Being a player doesn’t mean he’s totally devoid of morals. If just means he doesn’t have any when it comes to women.
     Danger! Danger, Wilma Robinson!!  Two things here. Have you checked betwixt yer legs lately?  Are you or are you not one of those folks you just said he doesn’t have any morals regarding?   People with circumstantial integrity, as you have described your player friend, tend to be the ones who keep that integrity as long as it is convenient. If he is jealous of you sleeping with other men, then wouldn’t someone with circumstantial integrity scratch that particular itch of theirs by saying what he has to say, but not alter acting on his other wants? I don’t know him as well as you do.  Maybe you meant something besides honesty when you spoke about him not being moral with other women.

     Karmic150 Send another hot, sexy player my way and yeah I’ll gladly sleep with him to see if I feel any guilt. Are you offering?
     You make a great straight woman. This provides a nice segue into why I won’t sleep with anyone I am not in love with.

     @Tom 92 I’d be interested to know why you think like you do if you’re not religious.
          I happen to be religious, however this plays little or no role in my decision, which I made a couple of years before I came to faith.
     I changed my opinion about whether sex is something to just do with someone because it is fun, because I found it difficult not to start to love someone I had sex with. If I am NOT emotionally attached in an exclusive sense and still have sex, this creates an immediate emotional dissonance within me.  The tension is only resolvable by letting go of the attachment or developing it further. The former is of course a bit painful and the latter potentially worse, because I may be getting myself into a toxic relationship if we are not a good match or the person themselves is genuinely toxic. The brief fun of sex is not worth either of these.
          I have noticed my desire to be in a relationship at all diminishing over the years.  I have not lost my libido.  That seems just about as active as ever! I believe that because emotions are involved at some level whether I want it to be or not, every time I have had a sex partner that I didn’t attach to, I chipped away a bit more at my ability to attach to someone else. . Years ago, I had no trouble with this at all, in fact I would want to attach too soon to many women I met, sex or not! I believe I am fundamentally monogamous; just made that way, and there is a bit of of all those past lovers (whether I was sexual with them or not) left behind. Just like Karmic finds herself monogamous naturally until a relationship starts to fade, I think that for me a little of the monogamy pull stays behind after every relationship.
         My current difficulty in attaching is mostly because of other issues in my life but I am sure that prior carelessness with my sexuality contributes too.  I feel less and less of a need or want to fall in love, but I am pretty sure deep down that is something I want in my life, so I am guarding my remaining capability by not having sex with someone unless I am in love with them. I’ll make out.  I’ll get hot and bothered; these things are important to develop attachment, but I won’t go all the way until I know I am in love. I have limited coin to put into the different relationship banks that come my way during my lifetime and I don’t want to run out.
         I accept that maybe some people are not made this way, but I wonder how many who say and believe that are actually in denial.
        
          For those of you who remain doubtful I leave you with this; if you can really have sex without any emotional involvement, why not masturbate when you are horny? Why do you need a partner? It is more convenient and physically safer (and I believe emotionally safer too!) If that is not a satisfactory solution to being horny,  carefully examine if intimate physical connection with another human is really as emotion free for you as you consciously believe. If it isn’t,  you might be making things harder on yourself down the road without realizing it. Ask yourselves if  the more people you have slept with, the slower and harder it became to attach to the next real relationship prospect.  To some extent maybe that is good.  Maybe it helps you from making the wrong choice, but eventually, maybe it leaves you unable to attach at all.

153. David T 153

     151 loaded when I posted thus the double post.
     @Evan 151 Guessing you shielded the thread from a flame. Thanks fort taking one for the team  and keeping us on what I believe is a very important topic.
     @RW 106 You said what I was trying to say in a much cleaner way. Props. (Yeah, that was a gimmee go back I left out of my last post.)

154. Karmic Equation 154

     @Dave T

     You make a great straight woman. This provides a nice segue into why I won’t sleep with anyone I am not in love with.

     Thanks, Dave. My gut tells me “great straight woman” is a compliment, but my head doesn’t understand what this means. Could you clarify? Inquiring minds want to know

     Perhaps if I add a qualification to my original point, what I intended would be clearer? Since disappearance after ONS or first-time sex (regardless of which date #) was what I was responding to initially the following is a clearer statement of what I meant:
     Women should separate sex from “outcome” (thanks, nathan) or “relationship-requirements/expectations” when only having had sex once AND/OR shouldn’t expect a call-back after having first-time sex. In other words, don’t *expect* (you could  hope but don’t *expect* and I would advise even against hoping) a relationship to develop (or a call-back) from a one-night stand or from someone with whom she’s had sex only once. Not *expecting* the call back WILL dull the hurt. I’m not saying there will be no hurt, but I can say that the degree of hurt won’t be the same.

     So, in my philosophy, you can and should expect *from yourself* *one-time* sex without emotional involvement (ladies, fight the feeling! or fake it ’til you feel it that is what I saying) …and my advice is that if you DO get emotionally involved even with one-time sex (or refuse to fight your biology), then yes, you will need to be “in a relationship” before you have it.

     From what I’ve read the oxytocin effect (bonding with sex partner) is quicker/higher/intenser in women than men because testosterone in men dulls their reaction to it. So while men will bond with women thru sex, they have to have much more sex with the woman for the sex to have any bonding effect. I guess my non-scientific hypothesis is that if a woman hopes to leverage a man’s oxytocin bonding effect to her, she should have sex early and often with said man. LOL. (I’m sorta kidding). BTW, I’m not a nympho, I might sound like one on TV because I stayed at the Holiday Inn Express recently (haha)…Couldn’t resist saying that because I know what some of you are thinking.

     Dave, Somewhere along the line the above meaning got lost. Sorry about that. I agree with your premise that most people cannot have a lot of sex (or more than one-or-two-or-three-time sex) with someone and remain emotionally distant. For some, even one time is too many to remain emotionally distant. As a woman, I’m suggesting that women fight this emotional bonding from one-time sex so as to feel empowered instead victimized or helpless or hurt. we can’t help what we feel, but we have the power to fight the feeling and work at not letting that oxytocin-induced feeling add to our insecurities caused by a non-callback or non-relationship from one-time sex.

     OTOH, if a man *disappears* after 2nd time sex, then Houston we may have a problem.

155. Karmic Equation 155

     @K 140
     I’m glad you were able to apply what I meant. Dating and meeting new men and sex/making out are FUN activities if you ENJOY THE MOMENT and don’t attach what happens next to what you did or didn’t do.

156. David T 156

     @Karmic Equation 155
      
     My main point is that by training myself not to respond to sex emotionally, or by responding and ignoring or remaining unaware of that response over and over again, I would make it harder for me to develop an intimate connection with ANYONE. That is why I resolved not to have sex without an existing strong emotional connection, and is perhaps what RW was referring to in 106 when she talked about “cheapening” the value of sex. Sex is fun, but it is also very serious and important.
      
     It is all a matter of degrees and it is going to vary from person to person.  I think I can hug, hold, cuddle, make out within reason, etc without doing harm to my attachment machinery.  I am dubious that anyone can have sex with many partners throughout their life and still completely preserve their ability to connect/attach through sex in a monogamous relationship or maybe attach at all, but hey, anything is possible.  I point it out to encourage people to monitor themselves carefully if they choose to have sexual adventures.
      
     Each person has to decide what works for them where they draw the line.
      
     Aside: “straight woman” was a rephrase of “straight man” who is the person in a comedy duo who generates openings for the comedian to crack a joke. These days the phrase is sometimes used for someone who says something that gives an opening for the responder to smoothly move into what they want to talk about.

157. Sacha 157

     @ David T #156
     Very interesting viewpoint from a man. Thank you for sharing that. Are you left-handed by any chance?

158. David T 158

     Yes, why?  I do know a teen who has experienced this. He didn’t have sex, thankfully, but did become fairly physically intimate with a young woman whose name he does not know and will likely never see again. They did not talk. She offered and he took her up on it. He was upset about not knowing how to see her again. This is attachment through physical intimacy in its rawest purest form: in someone young who has little to no relationship experience with hormones running hot. This is how I think we are all made at our core being.  I am thankful he learned this lesson to tread carefully now, instead a far harder one later.
      
     He will get over this, and be “tougher” the next time. He will be able to train himself to indulge in these activities if he chooses and not feel attachment if he chooses.  Is that good?  I am not so sure, because as that happens more and more, will he be able to tap into attachment when he wants to?   I hope he chooses a different route and keeps his powder dry for relationships that matter. They will be richer for it.
      
     Maybe he and I are unusual for males, perhaps because we listen to our hearts more. I think those who don’t suffer emotional dissonance quietly and unconsciously and it slowly saps them of their ability to connect.  He is right handed, btw.

159. Sacha 159

     @ David T
     I was referring to the anatomical differences in the brains of men and women, and also right-handed men and left-handed men. The left hemisphere (logical, thinking, verbal) and the right hemisphere (feeling, sexual, sensual) are connected via the corpus collosum and the anterior commissure. It has been found (lots of refs on the internet, so I will not bother giving specific refs) that the corpus collosum and the anterior commissure are smaller in right-handed men than in women and left-handed men. MRI research has shown that the corpus collosum has about 30% fewer connections in men than in women. It has been suggested that that is why generally right-handed men act from either the left -OR- the right hemisphere, but rarely from both at the same time. It is also claimed to explain why women and left-handed men are better at multi-tasking, which is very difficult for right-handed men, although right-handed men are better at focusing intensely on one task – they do not get distracted as their right hemisphere is inactive when their left hemisphere is active. It is also considered the reason why men generally can separate sex and love – when they are having sex they are operating from the right hemisphere (lust, sexual, sensual), while love/LTRs include to a large extent assessment of compatibility of values and goals (thinking, logical).

     You wrote above “Sex is fun, but it is also very serious and important.” – this combines sexuality/sensuality and logical thinking, and not many right-handed men would do that at the same time, hence my guess that you are left-handed. 
      
     Please note I was not referring to the ‘attachment through sex’ you were talking about. It has been found (ref Helen Fisher) that that is linked to the level of vasopressin, which acts in a similar way to oxytocin in women, and that men with higher levels of vasopressin attach more easily. I have not come across studies on connection vasopressin levels and right- or left-handedness.
      
     I would also venture a guess that Karmic Equation has longer ring-fingers than index-fingers.

160. Karmic Equation 160

     @Sacha
     Yup. I’m right-handed and ring fingers on both hands are longer than my index fingers.
     I vaguely remembering reading something about this having some significance, but I honestly didn’t pay attention to the article.
     I’ll google it now

161. Karmic Equation 161

     Hmmm…Interesting. My low 2D:4D ratio would explain one of my guy-friend’s observation that I’m like a dude inside a female body.
     My male-brain would also explain why I understand my player friend’s need for variety and not be offended or as horrified by it as most other women here find it.
     I suppose my male-brain gives me an edge in understanding how men think (and therefore how to push the right buttons), to help me get what my woman’s heart wants. It certainly would explain my penchant for wearing “stud” earrings when I’m in a relationship, but prefer wearing hoop earrings when in-between relationships (http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2011/08/bigger-hoops-bigger-whore.html) LOL — Guess my “male-brain” was helping me out
     I guess some biology you can’t fight, but certainly you can make it work for you.
     Thanks, Sacha.

162. Karmic Equation 162

     @Dave T
     
     It is all a matter of degrees and it is going to vary from person to person.  I think I can hug, hold, cuddle, make out within reason, etc without doing harm to my attachment machinery.  I am dubious that anyone can have sex with many partners throughout their life and still completely preserve their ability to connect/attach through sex in a monogamous relationship or maybe attach at all, but hey, anything is possible.  I point it out to encourage people to monitor themselves carefully if they choose to have sexual adventures.
     
     Not sure, but you might be mixing cause and effect. Like saying “gray hair CAUSES old age” when in fact gray hair may be a SYMPTOM of old age.

     Maybe you can’t attach because you’re lacking practice, More importantly, it’s possible that if you don’t practice attaching, when you finally do attach, the feelings will be so overwhelming, you may blow the meaning of the attachment out of proportion with reality and become either a suicidal mess or a stalker.

     Also, I disagree in your thinking that the capacity for love/attachment is finite. That would be so sad if it were. If we waste all the attachment on boys (or girls in your case) in our youth when no one really appreciates it, and then run out of love/attachment when we get old…Wow, why bother continuing to live after you’re 25?

     I believe a lot of people think that abstention is “better” than promiscuity, that NOT having sex makes them better, more moral, more loving people. I don’t agree, both can leave you being less capable of forming healthy adult relationships. In you abstain, you may be giving sex MORE meaning than it deserves. If you have too much, you don’t give it the meaning that it does deserve. As with all things, moderation is best, even sex. You have to have just enough to ensure you see it for what it actually is and you can’t see it for what it is if you treat it like it’s the Holy Grail.

163. Evan Marc Katz 163

     Hey Karma – appreciate your participation, but please, no triple posts – it keeps other people out of the discussion. Consolidate your replies into a few paragraphs in one post, if possible. Thanks!

164. WildIrishRose 164

     I spent too much time concerned about men making a move too quickly. I told myself that I wanted someone who “respected me.” However, after dating someone for four months who never made a move on me (yes, I know – not a shining moment in my dating life), I realized how important it was for a man to express his interest by trying to connect physically. I know I am not obligated to respond, but I do need to know that the interest is there. I’ve learned to appreciate this interest. It’s normal for men.
     
     For me, the time you spend dating someone before becoming sexually involved provides a wonderful opportunity to get to know the other person while keeping a level head.  You’ve offered some great advice: your job is to a) figure out if your man is interested in you or interested in sex, and b) figure out how to make it fun for him to slow down. 
     
     So is sex on date 3 the new norm? Not in my world!
     

165. Patti 165

     Thanks for responding to my question, Evan!  I do appreciate a man’s perspective of this.  I also appreciate the responses.  For a while, I thought maybe I was abnormal in not being ready to “put out” until I got to know the man. 
     I would like to add, however, that it’s the approach to sex, as well.  I had two dates with one man from a dating site who, while we were sitting in an ice cream shop, asked me what my “number” was.  He then proceeded to ask me how much I weighed and after I responded, told me that 20 lbs of it must be my boobs.  How romantic is that?  And then he calls me at 3 am to schedule the third date, which he knows I will be asleep at that time.  This man was actually a police officer and was pushy towards the subject.  By his actions, I figured that this was the ONLY thing he was looking for.  Before we even met, he was asking me how my 19 year old son would feel about him sleeping over if we were in a relationship.  My guard wasn’t up at the time.  I guess I wasn’t fully prepared for online dating.
     And then I had a blind date.  The first date was wonderful!  He picked me up on his bike and we had pizza at a bar he liked with no drinking (I’m not a drinker).  Second date … no.  He picked me up after work, he knew I hadn’t eaten, by what he said I thought we were going to dinner.  No!  He took me to a bar, asked me if I liked to party, and asked me what type of birth control I used.  I should have just had him leave me there and I could have called for a ride home, but I went on to the next stop with him hoping it would get better … maybe dinner and the situation would change.  It didn’t.  We went on to another bar, I had another beer with him (two total) and when the waitress came around again, he started to order another beer for me (again, I hadn’t eaten and he knew this), so I told her I wanted a burger, which I was prepared to pay for since I already knew this situation had gone sour.  Afterwards, we got on the bike and he asked me if he could take me home … his home.  No!  Because of the circumstances, I felt that he was only out for a lay.  And I felt that he was attempting to get me drunk when he knew I wasn’t a drinker.  And this was a teacher!
     Since then, I dated a man for about six weeks from an online site.  It went a little better.  He wanted to spend a lot of time with me and things were progressing, but then he started complaining about his ex wife and the things that happened during the course of their marriage, and then I realized he wasn’t over his divorce.  But yet, that very night, he made a move on me.  If I hadn’t just heard about the problems with the ex, I may have considered it, but what went through my mind was that he wasn’t over her … and he was seeking sex to feel better about himself.  He dumped me a few days later by text, telling me he was talking to another woman online that he wanted to meet. 
     This is all I’m finding out there.  Men who I feel are just looking for another notch for their bedposts or men who are looking for a warm body to replace their ex for a while.  None seem to actually want a relationship.  And this is why I’m unwilling to jump right in.  I’ve been divorced for some time and I’m ready for someone who is going to be around for a while.

166. Joe 166

     Broken picker.

167. Ruby 167

     Patti
      
     Well, I’m not sure that your “picker” is broken, but it does seem like you might not be thoroughly screening these people before meeting. Do you exchange a few emails, and chat with them on the phone first? I also feel that intrusive questions and comments by a relative stranger are reason enough to end the date immediately, no explanations are necessary. I’d also have a chat with the person who set you up on the blind date. Is this someone you know well? It does take some effort to weed out the multitude of weirdos and damaged souls out there.

168. Patti 168

     In the case of online dating, I do message with them a week or two and talk on the phone a few times.  The incident with the police officer was the worst I’ve had so far … I don’t know if it was his vocation or what (yes, he was, in fact, a police officer … a captain actually), but he had a way of intimidating me.  I can’t explain it.  He’s the only one I’ve actually been afraid of, which you would think would be strange since he’s a police officer.
      
     The one who set me up with the blind date is also a teacher.  They work together.  But my friend admitted afterwards that he had only known him for a year and only spoke to him on a few occasions.  My “date” had just recently started working at that school, so, no, my friend didn’t actually know him all that well, but he thought he was a decent guy.
      
     I don’t know.  Maybe I’m not using proper screening techniques.  To be honest, I never thought I’d ever do the online dating thing.  In the past, I lived in a smaller town and I dated local men, and it seemed that someone I knew either knew the guy personally or had a friend who was friends with him.  I guess I haven’t really prepared myself for online dating.  I’m actually so burned out from it right now that I’m depressed from it.  A friend told me that part of my problem was that I wasn’t enjoying the dating process.  How can you enjoy the dating process when 95% of your dates turn out to be bad ones?
      
      

169. Locutus 169

     Wow, some women on this site (i.e. Margo) are looney.  Evan, I have no idea how you can continue to try and help people who are so against everything you say and against men in general.  Margo, I have better advice for ya.  Skip men totally.  Just immerse yourself in reading books until you don’t need sex anymore.  It is probably the best path for you. 

     Mia, who are you to be giving advice to anyone or to complain about any wrong doing done to you by men?  Lest we forget, you are the one who had sex with married men in the past and have no remorse for it even today.  You even made fun of their wives.  Count your blessings they didn’t have any crazy and vengeful wives or you would have been one sorry SOB!  Anyone with your level of classlessness has no right calling anyone a sleazebag (look in the mirror) and is not entitled to give advice to anyone in my book.  Dispicable!

170. Patti 170

     And a friend just sent me an article that states the Midwest is like a desert for single women.  As if it’s not hard enough to find a man who is actually interested in developing a long-term relationship, the area in which I live has less single men to begin with.

171. Mia 171

     Locutus, chill out. I’m perfectly entitled to post something in the comments here, and no one has to listen to my advice. By your reasoning, I should just lock myself in a closet and never deserve happiness just because I made a few mistakes when I was younger, and have some perspectives which I’ll admit can seem offensive but are things I vent about on the Internet rather than say out loud to anyone but my best friend. At least I am trying to learn from  my mistakes at a relatively young age rather than being one of the middle aged women on here who still Chases chemistry and sleeps with guys on the second date. Following a variety of mistakes, I have accepted that I can’t sleep with a man unless we are exclusive- unless it’s an occasional ons or out of town fling where there’s no way I can get attached. So after a series of mistakes and humiliations I am developing much firmer boundaries and have decided I am no longer going to continue in situations where I can’t win, and I expect that will considerably cut down on my venting.

172. Fusee 172

     Hi Patti #168:
      
     “A friend told me that part of my problem was that I wasn’t enjoying the dating process.  How can you enjoy the dating process when 95% of your dates turn out to be bad ones?”
      
     First, thank you for your initial question to Evan who in return gave such a wise answer, and for getting back to the thread with more information on your situation. I have no experience with online dating and do not expect to have any in this lifetime, therefore I’m not speaking from a place of knowledge. However from what I learned from women dating online, it looks like although it can work, it’s also a very frustrating path to a relationship. On paper (whoops, on screen) it looks like you widen your options, and maybe you do. But you widen them within a pool that attracts a disproportionate amount of broken, confused, bitter, and player men. After all online dating is “lazy”: you leave your fishing line in the pond and wait for a catch. It’s heaven for men who do not want much more than a booty call. There sure must be serious men in the online pool as some of them comment here and seem respectful of women’s needs and genuinely interested in LTRs, but I believe from reading all the negative feedback that these great men are lost in a sea of clueless or confused ones that might sadly look more appealing from their photos and profiles.
      
     For men, it is easier to “merchandise” and rationalize the process, and that’s what online dating is in the end. You market yourself with a photo, a description and some tick boxes. For women, this is much harder to be at peace with a “market-based” system as we tend to be more sensitive and more romantic. 
      
     My suggestion to you to “enjoy the dating process” more is to focus on real life interactions where they are no tick boxes and where men have to make a real effort to connect with you (and you too!). What do you like to do or makes you curious? Social dances? Volunteering? Hiking? Art classes? Find a couple activities close to where you live or work and go have fun. If it’s not fun, change after a couple of months. You’ll discover new interests, develop new female friendships, and eventually will meet men organically. Men who have a life. And even if you do not meet interesting men initially, at least you will enjoy your life!
      
     Good luck!

173. Evan Marc Katz 173

     @Fusee – Thanks for your contribution. But, for what it’s worth, “real life” is overrated. Online dating is underrated. Your suggestions: Social dances? Volunteering? Hiking? Art classes? You know who you’re going to meet, for the most part? Other middle aged women. Or couples. Or nobody because most people don’t go hiking to make friends. So sure, go out and have a life and do things you find fun. If you meet a guy organically, great! And if not, go back home and spend a half hour a day browsing profiles on Match.com. To advocate a proactive dating life without online dating is like advocating fitness training without a gym. It’s possible, but it sure is a lot harder.

174. Julia 174

     @fusee I can go days on end without meeting single men IRL, its not a winning solution. I guess I can *hope* that Mr. Right stops me on the street when I am leaving the gym but I am not putting all my eggs into the hope basket.

175. Fusee 175

     @Evan #173:
      
     Sure. I agree that the most effective is using both approaches if you have the time, energy, and the resilience to frustration.
      
     However I can’t stop wondering how come I’ve always easily met men in real life, before I even wanted to. Especially at social dancing where more men show up than women because they know this is where to meet women easily. Yes, older men too. It’s even been frustrating at times since I was going there to dance, not to be asked for a date. I also can’t stop wondering how come after years of prolific online dating, you married a woman you met in real life. Same for Karl R. I may underrate online dating, and as I said @172 I do not have any experience with it myself, but real life being overrated? Seriously?
      
     By the way, and you may have guessed it by now, I also avoid the gym. For my fitness needs I walk, run, swim, do yoga, go hiking, etc. I breathe fresh air at the same time instead of the sweat of others. Works great for me.
      
     Now, I’m not advocating against online dating or the gym. But when I hear people expressing their frustration with these avenues, I definitely want to remind them of old-fashionned ways to meet people and be fit. That’s all.

176. Julia 176

     @Fusee I am assuming you were speaking to me because you talked about the gym. I go to an all women’s studio so I don’t have any illusions I will be meeting men there, I go there because its challenging and makes me strong.

     As for social dancing, I don’t even know what that is….. 

177. Locutus 177

     But the truth is Mia, I can forgive people when they make mistakes and are sorry for them.  You stated that you do not regret any part of having affairs with married men and you even made fun of the wives like they were losers and deserved it!!  The point is you have no remorse- even today!!!  You said yourself that you are not sorry for any of it.
     So, it’s NOT just a mistake of the past.  It’s something you still think is totally fine.  For that reason I would emplore anyone reading these posts to not listen to you. 
     The part about you laughing and making fun of the wives is repulsive to me. 

178. Fusee 178

     @Julia #176:
      
     Ooops, sorry for the misunderstanding. No, I was not talking to you in my previous comments : ) @172 I was replying to Patti, and @175 to Evan who made a parallel between online dating and the gym, for dating and fitness effectiveness respectively.
      
     I was definitely not recommending the gym to meet men. Not sure men would hunt for dates while working out, but who knows? No idea, I’m not going to the gym : )
      
     Again, nothing again online dating per se to find a partner, or the gym to keep fit. If it works for you, go for it. My comments were addressed to Patti and other women for whom online dating might not work that well.
      
     Side note: social dancing is not everyone’s cup of tea, but if you would be open to try it, I’d recommend Lindy Hop (or any swing dance) or Argentine Tango. Those classes are full of intelligent men who at least 1. are not afraid of learning something new, 2. know they will have to develop the courage to ask a woman for a dance, 3. will be able to touch a woman appropriately without expecting more at that point. Oh, and you will directly find out how their embrace *feels* and how they are doing in the hygiene department. It keeps you fit too : )

179. nathan 179

     With years of online dating experience, I have to say it’s been a mixed bag at best. Certainly, plenty of people meet their partners online, but plenty of others toil away into frustration and bitterness. It’s not just because of attracting players, broken folks, etc. A fair amount of folks seem to have similar experiences to myself. I’ve met many really nice, intelligent women doing online dating, and yet every one of my long term relationships has happened organically. The longest I have dated someone I met online was about two months. After at least 100 online dates over the years, I can count the number of really messed up/difficult women I’ve met on my hands. It helps to be good at screening and weeding out, but I have to say that there have been many times where we have “looked good on paper,” but just didn’t click in person for whatever reason.
      
     I think Evan is correct that including online dating in your approach is worthwhile. However, I think some folks place too many eggs in that basket, and then find themselves drained and disappointed after awhile. Perhaps the smartest thing is to learn how to be open to meeting someone anywhere, so that the weight you place on “real life” or on the internet isn’t driven by unrealistic expectations or desperation.

180. Fiona 180

     I have had similar experiences to some who have posted. On-line dating has never worked for me and I have no reason to believe it is magically going to start now. I am rapidly reaching the conclusion that I am wasting time, energy and money on it.  All of my previous relationships started in real life through chance meetings or introductions by friends. I expect that I will just need to see if that happens again when the time is right or not. I am still online on the off chance that it may yield some benefits but I doubt it.

181. Karmic Equation 181

     I know of two colleagues who met and married their current mates through online dating. So it works.

     Personally, I think that if online dating is not working out on meeting “the one” for you, I still think that it is worthwhile, assuming cost of doing so is not putting unnecessary strains on your bank accounts, for the primary reason that you learn how to date and screen people IN PERSON, and become a better conversationalist and more comfortable with men in general. If it’s straining your bank account, that could cause an artificial sense of urgency and desperation.

     Had I been in Patti’s shoes with the guy who talked about her boobs, I would have put him on the spot…”Ok. Let’s put our cards on the table, are you looking for sex from me or is this your way of flirting?” Let’s say he stammers, “Er…both?” I would have said, “That will never happen with anyone if you don’t learn to flirt with more finesse….Like instead of saying what you just said, which I was actually offended by, you could have said “You are just gorgeous.”"

     Then change the subject to ask him how many dates he’s gone on and how they went…Bet you would already suspect…And you might actually have good conversation with him and learn more about him…And guess what? You might bring out the “real” man in him instead of the player/jerk. While you may have already weeded him out as Mr Right, you made a great impression, deftly changed the subject and showed your “value” (intelligence and honesty)…confidence and kindness by giving him the benefit of the doubt…and learned more about another human being. You’ll feel good about yourself and you may have helped a clueless guy. Let’s say he’s a jerk and not simply clueless, so what? You still came out of that experience a better person.

     There’s a blog post somewhere that hypothesize men are so adept at the  “plaything / keeper” triage because they date so prolifically (this assessment is subconscious for men)… I think online dating has merit fot this specific purpose: for women to get to date A LOT of men and learn their own likes and dislikes and learn to quickly triage men into “Mr Right / Mr Right Now / Mr Maybe / Mr Not on Your Life”), and then spend time only on the Mr Right and Mr Right Nows and even Mr Maybe (whether online or IRL).

182. David T 182

     @Locutus 177
     So, it’s NOT just a mistake of the past.  It’s something you still think is totally fine.  For that reason I would emplore anyone reading these posts to not listen to you. 
      
     I often disagree with Mia’s perspectives. Nevertheless they are her perspectives and one more glimpse of piece of the panorama of different dating styles and peronalities out there. It is a mistake to dismiss everything someone says just because you disagree with specific points they have made. Note, for instance, that I said often and not always. (For instance Mia53  I also       have had enough stress in recent years wondering if a man likes me after sex that I want to wait a little longer for my own emotional protection).
      
     Also there is real value in hearing an opposing point of view,  For me it helps remind me why I believe what I do and sometimes strengthens my resolve to stick to my principles. I implore people to read everything here (hmm… not some of the labyrinthine, torturous discourses that don’t go anywhere ). Hold it and think about it and how you relate or don’t to it. Whether you agree with it or not you will  learn something.

183. nathan 183

     I learned a lot about myself, the dating process, and what others are looking for doing online dating. It’s a good development tool, as Karmic points out. And some people do find their long term/life long partners online, so it does have some merit in that respect as well. However, I do think that some of us hit a wall where we’ve done our share of “learning,” and aren’t finding anyone we connect strongly with. And for those folks, focusing on other options – or simply enjoying the rest of your life without too much fussing about finding someone – might be more appropriate.
      
     I see an awful lot of what amounts to endless self improvement advice online for daters. It boils down to the idea that you aren’t really “good enough” right now, and that’s why you’re failing at online dating (or dating in general). There’s something way off about that attitude. Which doesn’t mean people shouldn’t make an effort to become smarter daters. But if you don’t think you’re “good enough” now, you’ll probably keep feeding that story even after you find someone. How many relationships get undermined by lousy self esteem? If more of us treated dating like an experiment, or an adventure, instead of a confirmation or condemnation of personal worth, maybe there’d be less collective misery.

184. Evan Marc Katz 184

     @Nathan – I respectfully disagree with you, my friend. And it’s probably because I have the privilege of working intimately with women on a daily basis. The most amazing women learn something new EVERY SINGLE TIME we talk on the phone. Yesterday, one client was shocked to learn why a man might send a text instead of calling. Or why he could cancel a date and still be interested. Or why he could hook up and have it not mean anything. Or why his online dating emails seem so impatient, even if he’s a nice guy. Or why good men don’t pick up the whole check. Or why quality guys still get nervous and try to sell themselves on first dates.

     My job is not to tell women that there’s something WRONG with them; it’s to shed light on the things that they don’t see, can’t understand or wouldn’t acknowledge because they’re a) not as experienced as I am and b) not men.

     Very little of my profession is telling women “what’s wrong” with them, which is why I get so bent out of shape when people come to that conclusion. Men need to understand women better. Women need to understand men better. I’m just the translator.

185. Locutus 185

     David T,
     Hey, you can listen to perspectives of any types of people if you want to, even repeat criminals.  However, it is a little ironic to hear someone make compaints about men being jerks or sleazebags when suddenly they are even worse than what they are complaining about!!  From Mia’s comments you would think she is an innocent woman who has had men treat her poorly.  The latter may be true, but she acts just as poorly or worse than the men she complains about.  Nobody is perfect, but I don’t accept hypocrites.  That is the underlying characteristic that bothers me.  It’s like a Jerry Springer show when both parties have cheated.  One gets all upset and then halfway thru starts telling how they cheated themself.  Utter non-sense and ridiculousness.  When someone is a hypocrite their credibility goes right out the window!!

186. Liz 186

     One thing the struck me about dating again (was married very young at 24), is how casual everything is. Now mind you, I haven’t dated since I was 19, but you may meet someone, have a great time, and for some reason never hear from them again. You can go on 6-8 dates, truly feel like you are on your way to building something with someone, and puff they are gone. So for me, I think waiting for 2-3 months, with enough rounding every other base, makes sense. Emotionally, i don’t like the aftertaste of casual sex. I am too fragile in that regard. Unfortunately, not everyone is at the stage in their life where they can be emotionally open for a relationship of the depth I would like to have one day. 

187. Locutus 187

     Liz you are right about the state of dating today.  People have become rude, inconsiderate, and basically careless.  They see no issue to simply blow someone off or stop talking to you.  I have had 4 dates in a row all recently just blow me off.  2 out of the 4 women even called me a few days before the date to say how much they wanted to meet me since they liked how I came off over the phone and complained to me that their previous dates were losers and jerks.  Then 2 days later….they blow me off- no call, no e-mail, nothing.  It’s detrimental to everyone.  I have become a worse person for it too- I no longer trust or believe anyone when they tell me things.  I totally agree with your assessment.  However, these types of people would probably do the same thing at any given point in time.  Unfortunately, I think waiting 2-3 months is no guarantee to improve this situation.  What it really comes down to is what type of person you have really met.  No way of knowing that until they display their true colors and obviously yo urealize you have wasted your time.

188. Karmic Equation 188

     I think that going into a date hoping that a guy (or girl) will turn into an LTR be “the one” is really a high expectation to have for someone you don’t know.

     If you date with the hope of making a friend, you won’t be disappointed if the friendship doesn’t work out. The worse you can do is wind up with a friendly acquaintance who fades. I’m sure all of you have had lots of buddies and friends whom you’ve lost touch with and don’t lose sleep over.

     I do recognize that this strategy probably doesn’t work well for online dating (i.e., you want to get what you pay for). But I can vouch that this works IRL. I suspect that’s why my men don’t disappear on me. I’m their friend. Men don’t disappear on their friends.

189. Mia 189

     Karmic, some of my closest friends in my new city are people I  dated, but you’re right, I met them in real life, and since I recently moved my first priority was making friends anyway. However, I am not friends with anyone I dated online. At the same time, I think the only instance when meeting irl is better than online is if you had friends or colleagues in common. If you randomly meet someone at a bar or the grocery store, that to me is no advantage over meeting through a dating site because you have no outside connections.  

190. Fusee 190

     Mia #189: “At the same time, I think the only instance when meeting irl is better than online is if you had friends or colleagues in common. If you randomly meet someone at a bar or the grocery store, that to me is no advantage over meeting through a dating site because you have no outside connections.”
      
     Although I have no experience with online dating, I disagree with your opinion, Mia. A meeting through online dating will have involved clicking on boxes, and therefore from the get-go selecting someone based on very superfical traits and treating the process like an Amazon shopping experience. That’s why friendships would be so hard to develop from such “market-based” strategy. You do not consider people the same way you do when you meet them in a real situation.
      
     In real life, a meeting happens organically, and even if everyone has “tick boxes” in the back of their mind, they will feel attracted to people regardless of those. And even if they try to stick to their online criteria, in real life meetings they will not really know for sure before having experienced the critical naive/unbiaised first impression that you can’t experience if you have read their online data. To take an easy example, I’m 33, and online I would be 33. But in reality I look 25 and therefore attract (and end up interesting) peple whose dating profile might set the limit at 30. (yes, really, no delusion here, I really look that much younger, and it’s actually a problem because I tend to attract men who are too young for my relationship goals). My boyfriend is 34 and was quite shocked to realize on our first date that I was over 30. That’s one thing that for me would be an advantage to date online: I would attract older men. But older women who look younger (a 38 yo looking like a 33 yo) would benefit from organic in real life meetings. And that’s only talking about age. I could go on and on on how much you could make someone instantly feel great around you in real life, someone who would never have “selected” you through tick boxes…
      
     On the location now. Although people going to bars to pick up women will heavily overlap with people picking up women online (same kind of “market-based” intention), it is still going to involve other hard-to-explain criteria, even in the absence of connexion to people you have in common. Now, to my opinion, the best is to meet people in other real-life places than bars. Bars are simply the worst location to meet relationship-minded men.
      
     I will stop my ramblings in favor of real-life meetings for now, before I completely aggravate Evan : )

191. Fusee 191

     @Karmic Equation #188:
      
     “I think that going into a date hoping that a guy (or girl) will turn into an LTR be “the one” is really a high expectation to have for someone you don’t know.”
      
     I agree. Best to approach it with openess and curiosity instead of desperation and bitterness.
      
     “If you date with the hope of making a friend, you won’t be disappointed if the friendship doesn’t work out. The worse you can do is wind up with a friendly acquaintance who fades.”
      
     I disagree. Dating is not about “making friends”. Dating is about looking for a partner, either casual or serious, but more than “just a friend”. A serious reason why people struggle in dating is because they do not clearly define their goals. They do not know what they want, and even if they do, they end up settling on a “friendship”, on a sexual fling, or even on a dead-end LTR. If you want to build a solid and happy relationship that will progress towards a solid and happy marriage, you must start with this mindset, and weed out people who are not on the same page.
      
     I already have a circle of loyal and healthy female friends. I do not need more “friendships” consisting of old dates or men looking for an ego stroke. If dating does not yield what I’m looking for, I say: “goodbye and have a good life”, and shout: “NEXT!”
      

192. SS 192

     I agree Fusee @191. While I agree with Karmic that it’s not good to hope for an LTR when going on a date, I had no interest in trying to make these guys friends either. I went into a date with a new guy with no expectations really… just that it was a date. Maybe it would lead to a second date, maybe not.
      
     I had plenty of guy friends and certainly wasn’t searching for any more. If a date happened to turn into a friend, that was fine, but my mindset was more one of the idea that if things didn’t work out with a particular date, that was it for that guy and on to the next one.
      
     Everyone isn’t meant to be a friend. Approaching dating with that mindset seems to cheapen the idea of friendship, really. And yes, I’ve seen too many women who do eventually want a solid LTR or marriage keep too many of these guy “friends” around — so much so that it prevents them from actually focusing on what they really want.

193. Karmic Equation 193

     @Fusee 191
     I already have a circle of loyal and healthy female friends. I do not need more “friendships” consisting of old dates or men looking for an ego stroke. If dating does not yield what I’m looking for, I say: “goodbye and have a good life”, and shout: “NEXT!”

     I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. Partnerships should be built on a foundation of friendship, not on a foundation of “we both have to want to get married.” That is a GOAL not a foundation. You can weed out the men who don’t have your goals while learning if they are good people that you could be friends with. Frankly, I’m no longer in touch with my anyone I’ve had sex with (except ex-hubby with whom I’m still friends), BUT I am still friends with many men whom I’ve dated but did not have sex with.

     If you build your relationship-foundation the right way, you’ll probably get your marriage, if that’s what you’re both looking for. If you build your realtionship-foundation the wrong way (i.e., without friendship as a basis), you’ll eventually end up driving the men away with your ticking biological clock/desperation/neediness/don’t want to be aloneness/whatever.

     So I guess the better way to restate my position and yours is “Don’t have a relationship OR sex with a man until you have a friendship AND you both share the same goal, if you don’t want them to disappear on you.”

     This post is a great summary of what we are both proscribing: http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2012/06/know-why-you-are-dating.html

     Legend “you” = generic you (all people reading this) – not you in particular, Fusee.

194. Fusee 194

     @Karmic Equation #193:
      
     I would also be fine to agree to disagree with you, but I do not disagree one bit with you on how a friendhsip must be the foundation of a healthy relationship. I still remember all the discussions I had last summer with my then-new boyfriend about how I needed to get to know him well and see if we could develop a real trust-based and appreciation-based friendship before progressing physically. There was no sex during that foundation-building phase, and not until we knew we completely trusted one another, cared about one another, knew we were compatible in life goals, values, and lifestyles. See, I agree 100% with you!
      
     What I had a disagreement with was the concept of approaching dating with the idea of making new friends, as if I would be pretending to myself that I would not be really looking at the end goal of building a life-long relationship, or as if I would keep hanging out with men I had already realized were not compatible with my long-term goals. Sure an unexpected friendship could develop, but to my opinion, this should not be the GOAL of dating. The goal should be whatever you want with a partner and from the get go, working on assessing whether this person has the same goal and whether or not you would make a good team to fulfill that goal.
      
     I think that women are too afraid of rejection/rejecting and end up trying to keep in touch with too many men that they have no business being in touch with. An unexpected true and solid friendship, why not? But keeping men around that are hoping for easy sex or an ego stroke while they chat about their new dates, not really. Most men do not become “friends” with women just to have tea and a good chat. Especially if there is no past context beside a few dates that got nowhere. As SS was writing @192, I think these “friendships” makes women waste their precious relationship energies on dead-ends.
      
     Since dating is about finding a partner, I prefer keeping my personal long-term goal in mind while I try to develop the friendship-based foundation. But I do not start with the goal of building a friendship or pretend to the guy that I’m fine with a friendship as it would be the best way for me to become derailled and end up talking myself into accepting lower standards. I need less for a friendship than for a boyfriend. And I need less for a boyfriend than for a husband. If I start with the word husband in mind, I can let go faster of men who are only “friendship material”. And I let them GO because I have no energy for those unnecessary friendships, knowing full well how much energy it indeed takes to build the necessary friendship-based foundation for my goal of a solid and happy marriage.

195. Karmic Equation 195

     @Fusee 194

     We’re actually not as far apart as first thought.

     I agree with you that the GOAL of dating is to obtain the relationship you’re looking for (marriage, other LTR, fling, whatever)…But I still think that the APPROACH to dating is to make a friend — not to actually KEEP the person as a friend, BTW, unless you want to.

     It’s always a lot easier for me to get my point across with an example, so please bear with me while I try to explain…

     I was a late bloomer, didn’t have my first “real” kiss until I was 18; no dates (and virginal) until 19, which is ancient by today’s standards! I remember after I started dating but before I lost my virginity…every date I went on, I was thinking is this the guy, will I someday have sex with this one, how will it feel, is tonight the night, etc. Basically because I was so obsessed with my virginity and when I would lose it, that I did not pay attention to my date as a person. Did I like him? Was he fun to be around? Was he a gentleman? I was so in my own head, I didn’t have time to really get to know if the guy I was on a date with was a good person, e.g., someone who could be a good friend…because I think we can agree that the person we end up married to should be a good friend to us and a good person in general.

     AFTER I lost my viriginity, I paid attention to my dates the right way. I dated men and talked to them like my friend (not close friend, but friend) — I asked questions (not where do you live, what do you do, etc.) but things like, What did you do today? Did you have fun doing that? What did you find the most fun? Was that stressful, etc…And in doing that, I got to know my date as a person. This is what I meant by approaching dating to make a friend. Not to actually make a friend, but to make sure that there is no strange agenda in the back of your mind to keep you from seeing your date for who he is, which allows you to more clearly assess how *you* feel about the date and the guy.

     If there is attraction, then there would be flirtation…it’s natural. The conversations get slightly more personal (in a good way), in addition to the friendship questions/conversation. If there is no attraction then no flirtation. And as women and great conversationalists that we are, we can steer the no attraction conversations such that we know that they won’t ask for a 2nd date. If we like the guy, we keep it friendly and flirtatious (in a good way)…and hope our conversation and what we shared and how we shared it in that conversation would elicit a another date. Then each date we show more of who we are and get the guy to be more of who he is…and you go from their to your relationshp GOALS.

     Sorry for the long post. I don’t know how to get this nuance across any other way.
      
      

196. Fusee 196

     @Karmic Equation #195:
      
     We totally agree : )

197. Lia 197

     @ Karmic Equation
      
     Wow, I can see I’m late to the party but what a great discussion!  I really loved your contributions.  You and I are so very different in the way we do the whole men/ sex/ relationship thing and I am fascinated by your perspective and the way you go about it all.  Reading such a different perspective was truly delightful and thought provoking.
      
     It has given me a lot to think about.  I am going to have to go back and read your posts again.

198. Lizzy 198

     People talk about sexual chemistry, or how good the person is so therefore they need to do it to find out. Let’s not fool ourselves, anybody can have sex. Animals have sex, there is nothing complicated about it. There is no such thing as incompatible unless you are having sex with another animal.
     When you have deeper feelings for someone the sex will ultimately be good. Communication is the key and what may not be good the first time around will be better the second time.

199. Blueberrie 199

     Hmm I can see the guy point of view and the girl point of view here.  I think though as a woman it’s very hard to determine if a guy wants you for just sex or more and 3 dates simply isn’t enough time to know if it will “be” something if you do give it up.  Doesn’t mean women don’t want to have sex by the 3rd date with someone they are very attracted to but at that point it really is just too soon to have any sort of real knowledge about who the guy is BECAUSE from my experience a guy is all about making some great impression in those first few dates so you will sleep with him, he isn’t being the real guy.  So in a way you are damned if you do and damned if you don’t.  in other words you are sleeping with someone because you fell for his act, not because you really know who he is.  Only way to get past this is to wait, or take your chances. 
     Also, for a guy to make a move first few dates for sex is honestly often a little creepy.  It puts a lot of pressure on a woman to decide right then and there.  And of course women have boundaries but I always find that decision making process difficult and high pressure in a lot of instances.  You give a little and they expect a lot.  Gosh I’ve been called everything under the sun for not giving it up from prude, to telling me I have trust and committment issues, to being called a tease and a flirt.  It honestly can make you feel like “prey”, not a great feeling at all when you are really just trying to get to know someone.  I have to say I’ve had anxiety or paniky feelings about dates 2 and 3 with guys, KNOWING that this sort of behaviour will likely go on and the pressure to decide if I want to or not is strong, so strong that it can freak me out to the point of just not wanting to go out with the guy and not wanting to have to deal with it.  It’s high pressure because a guy wants what he wants HOWEVER if a woman was insisting on the first date that they discuss marriage and babies and being all committed for life and a serious relationship and we were selling YOU and you had to decide in that first date, second or third date if that’s what you want, I kinda think a lot of guys would stay home and not bother with it all.    just playing devil’s advocate here. 
      
      

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