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Without further ado, here’s what happened when I searched “why are men so…” and “why are women so…”
Why are men so….
mean
stubborn
hot
pathetic
cranky
stupid when it comes to women
shallow
lazy
jealous
insecure
Stereotypes exist for a reason. The only problem is when we assume they’re ALWAYS true.
Yep, that sounds about right.
Why are women so…
emotional
crazy
cold
complicated
stuck up
sensitive
weird
self-centered
mean to men
illogical
No comment. 🙂
Stereotypes exist for a reason. The only problem is when we assume they’re ALWAYS true.
Come to think of it, maybe the key to relationships is as simple as finding a partner who doesn’t embody the worst stereotypes.
What do YOU think?
Selena says
I think the people who see stereotypes are those who are most likely choosing people with the same traits over and over. Possibly because they have another trait, like “hotness” that goes along with it. 😉
Ellen says
Boy, this post is gonna get a lot of comments!
The best advice a college bf gave me was: See people first as individuals, not their gender. That said, I generally find men more alike (amongst themselves) than women. To me there are so many types of women that generalizing is ridiculous imo. For one thing, a lot of women are on overdrive in order to compete successfully with men in school, the workplace, etc. so are becoming more masculine in their mien.
Insecure men, for the most part, tend to (consciously anyway) avoid or neglect their feminine side.
In general I find men less complicated than women, true.
The only real stereotype I see consistently with men is their shallowness and lack of sentimentality about sex, love unless it’s their momma or daddy or something. Proof? Men are much more likely to replace a woman quickly- even a woman who has been important to them their entire lives- with the first suitable replacement that comes along (and often not that suitable or acceptable), rather than be alone. I see this consistently with widowers everywhere. It sickens me frankly. I mean, where is the loyalty? Can’t they observe a suitable period of mourning even? I just will never, ever understand it or accept it.
Heather says
Actually Selena, that makes alot of sense!
I’ve dated a few abusive guys in the past, and it got to where I would think, good god, why are men so damn MEAN??? Is that just part of their genetic code, to treat women like crap and hurt them?
But once I did some work on myself, I came to learn that I CAN stand up for myself and set boundaries, and not let guys walk all over me, simply for being nice.
Having said that, where’s the stereotype about guys tuning us out while they watch TV? 😛 I swear, there are times I could probably tell my guy that I’m sleeping with an alien and he might not even bat an eyelash, then look at me five minutes later and go, “Huh?”
Selena says
That’s called “selective deafness” Heather. I’m laughing, because that may actually be male trait: I remember my son had it as a little boy! 🙂
Fiona says
OK I’m sensitive and I’m emotional and if I get hurt I can certainly be upset (which is maybe manspeak for crazy). On the flip side I am caring, loyal, and hate hurting people. I can only hope for some redemption….
Joe says
@ Ellen: how does it feel if I turn it around and say women are overly sentimental about sex, love?
Rachael says
Lol heather! I know what you mean! Cause i’ve been with those guys…Luckily my current doesn’t do that. He’ll even allow me to engage him (however briefly) while watching football! Amazing! I find it mind boggling though that he can be looking RIGHT into my eyes, at full attention (speaking a complete sentance even) and still catch something, turn around and yell “awww COME ON!” at the tv. Like…How the eff did you even see that? lol Fascinating.
Ruby says
I think it’s still more acceptable for women to embody masculine traits than the other way around. It’s easy enough to ascribe the attributes EMK listed for men, as being female traits as well. But when you try to say that men are illogical, emotional, or sensitive, well, them’s fightin’ words! There is still an expectation that men should be strong and rational. The truth is, I’ve known some pretty sensitive, emotional men, as much so as any woman. And what is so bad about being sensitive or emotional, as long as one isn’t overly so?
Rachael says
Ellen
Maybe it is therapeutic for those men to fill that hole? Even if the new woman doesn’t compare to the ex, or the deceased. I personallt wouldn’t look at this behavior as insulting, or disrespectful to the woman. I see it as rather sad and kind of endearing. As if to say “I just can’t take it being alone, and without her.”. Maybe the new woman is a replacement. But men have different ways of coping with pain.
Ellen says
PS Sorry for the second post, but men are much less likely to want to learn from women than the other way around. It’s like unconsciously we get tied up with “Mom” in some way and this stubbornness kicks in. A kind of “no woman is going to tell me what to do”.
I’ve been married twice: Once for 7 years, once for 25 and in all that time I doubt my husbands actively or willingly tried to learn from me. And listen, I’ve got plenty to share, offer. I always got the feeling I was expected to learn from them, listen to them though. So I did. Know it sounds a bit insipid, but from my first husband I learned to explore fiction in a big way and more profoundly, from my second to get tougher emotionally …..
So that has also frustrated me. I mean, imagine being with someone 25 years and in all that time you can’t for the life of you see how they have learned lesson one from you. Nothing is said anyway to indicate this, nothing openly acknowledged. To me it is a type of major emotional withholding.
What do others have to say on this subject? ‘Cause I would love to find out if I am correct in my assumption or not gals/guys.
Rachael says
I’d really like a man’s perspective on the “replacement” behavior! I’d love to fully understand it!
Heather says
@ Selena and Rachael,
I tried that experiment once, with my ex husband. He was playing another one of his online games (he was addicted to gaming, among other things), and I was talking to him. I either got no response, yelled at for interrupting his serious “quest” (yeah pal I have your “quest” right here, LOL), or an absent-minded “uh huh”. So I said hey hon, I have some news, I’m pregnant. And with an alien baby, too! All I heard a few seonds later was, “Uh huh.”
It really must be selective deafness. It drives me batty sometimes!
DinaStrange says
Of course, we don’t believe in stereotypes…only watch when you say word “threesome” the reaction of men and women 🙂
Michael17 says
Well, this is my take.
Men go for femininity. Which means that we will go for crazy emotional woman (i.e., a woman with high femininity) over the more logical easy-going “Plain-Jane” (a woman who is less in touch with her femininity). And then when the woman we chose exhibits her illogical, crazy ways, complain about how nuts women are, all the while the “Plain-Jane” was passed up or made “one of the guys” is actually quite easy to get along with.
Similarly, women go for masculinity. Which means that many women will go for a man’s man (a guy with high masculinity) over the “Nice Guy” (a guy who is less in touch with his masculinity). And then when the man you chose exhibits his brutish insensitive ways, complain about how men are jerks and scumbags, all the while the “Nice Guy” that was passed up or Friend-Zoned actually has none of those hard-to-get-along-with tendencies.
So both genders end up complaining about the other, with the “Plain-Janes” and the “Nice-Guys” both complaining about how they are what the other gender says they want but they never get picked.
Ruby says
Michael17 #14
Well, this is totally counter to what EMK advises when he says that men like easy-going women. Since when is easy-going “plain”, and crazy is feminine and attractive? I think you are saying that men are willing to overlook a woman who’s unstable, if she’s hot enough.
My boyfriend is very masculine, but he has an emotional, caring, sensitive side, too. For me, it’s the best of both worlds. He IS a nice guy, which is good, because I’m not interested in dating jerks.
Michael17 says
Ruby #15:
Good point. This is what I meant (and forgive my poor wording above): A man will go for a woman who is in touch with her femininity EVEN IF it means we have to put up with a lot of crazy, INSTEAD OF a woman who is not in touch with her femininity, even if she is perfectly sane and logical. That said, a woman who is having crying jags and throwing fits all the time gets old VERY VERY fast to most men. Also, we do tend to run from a woman who is initiating too many “where is this going” talks or is talking about her ticking biological clock.
A woman who is mature and easy-going, AND who brings her share of feminine energy, with even a little bit of girly emotional craziness, is what we want. At the end of the day we need to know you’re a girl. If you’re more logical or less emotional than we are, then that could be a problem. So we really want a mix, a balance.
Just as I’m sure you love both your boyfriend’s uber-masculine side AND his emotional sensitive caring side too.
Michael17 says
And how this relates to this topic at hand: We often settle for our list of attributes being only partially filled. And we as men will end up going for a feminine woman who is “too crazy” (and we end up leaving her because we can’t take it anymore) and then biatch about your gender. What we are really looking for in the end is a woman who is in touch with her femininity, who is easy-going and mature, whom we think is hot, and who is attracted to us back. It’s hard for us to find indeed.
Fiona says
I am confused by what men deem to be ‘crazy’. If someone treats me badly I am going to be upset. Far from inferring a mental illness, I would say this is understandable.
JB says
@Ellen#2 I see this consistently with widowers everywhere. It sickens me frankly. I mean, where is the loyalty? Can’t they observe a suitable period of mourning even? I just will never, ever understand it or accept it.”
It goes both ways Ellen I was winked at on Match last week by a 52 yr.old widow and after I got her email address and did a little digging low and behold her husband died in April 2012 and his pic is still on her Facebook page. I couldn’t believe it!
Michael17 says
Ellen #2, I wonder if it is your people-picker. See, the guys you are going for, or seem to have been going for, represent only a very partial subset of men out there. There are a lot of nice guys out there…. They don’t always make the strongest first impression that hooks the women in though.
My point is that you need to take some responsibility for what has been happening to you when it comes to dating. We all do.
Mia says
Complaints about the opposite sex are often referring to maybe only 30 percent of men or women. Its just that that minority makes an outsized impression. I’m often confused when I hear rants about women – that American women are bitchy, ungreatful, materialistic, and out to chain men down and use them and wield sex as a manipulative weapon. I’m not like that and neither is any woman I’m friends with, but these same men would never date women like us not bc we’re not hot but bc we don’t offer much drama. Likewise, only a minority of men wield lots of power, but those are some of the only men with the balls to approach, so we women think they represent all men . When really, they don’t.
Lucy says
My parents are very traditional and I’ve learnt some great values from them. At the same time, some of their ideas about traditional roles seem a bit outdated for me. Looking at myself, I realised at one point that having stereotyped views of men will lead to certain expectations for me. For that reason, I’ve decided to abandon some of those traditional views. You just can’t have it both ways and there will be a flip side to every behaviour. Whilst I love my dad, some of his traditional views I don’t agree with. He wouldn’t spend as much time with me as a child or see my performances because he didn’t think it was his job as a man. I kept asking why he didn’t want to but I was told just to accept it.
I’m only 22 years old so I don’t know if what I say on here has enough perspective. The one thing I can’t get over my head is how immature men are at my age. I don’t really want to mother a guy but that is the sort of thing they seem to expect. I’m fairly level headed and non-judgemental of men. However most men don’t seem to give me much credit. I know I get less attention because I have a good brain and I can confidently argue my point of view. I do not appreciate it when men take the approach of keeping me sweet. I have dignity.
I do like “nice guys” but I mean genuinely nice guys who are confident. I’m not talking about the nice guy stereotypes who are manipulative ego-maniacs. People think they are merely more sensitive than the average man because of their insecurities but I steer well clear now owing to some bad experiences.
Lucy says
Incidentally, in one bad moment I said something I regretted to a male friend (though in retrospect it wasn’t that bad). He was offended and flashed me. I swiftly made a complaint to the warden at my student residence because it bloody freaked me out. He was banned from the residence. If that wasn’t bad enough, the situation turned into a nightmare. My female friend had a real go at me for making the complaint and telling me that he didn’t mean much by it and that it was a bitch move for me to complain. I did not get any apology from him and yet I was supposedly the one in the wrong.
Several months ago I had just broken up with a bad ex. It wasn’t a great break-up. He was cold and abusive and I ended up cheating on him in a fit of desperation and loneliness. I felt bad about it but I did the decent thing and owned before finishing it. It didn’t end there either. He was controlling afterwards and phoned up telling me I wasn’t allowed to talk about him after the break-up. He told his friends not to talk to me whilst having conversations with some of my best friends and telling them what a whore I am. He stalked me on the internet all the time. So I had to deal with him but at the same time I had to deal with one of his female friends who was treating me like the whore of babylon having only heard his side of the story. Eventually I ended up crying in the arms of a friend. He finally got me to realising how this girl was pretty much an apologist for my ex’s abusive behaviour.
Anyway there was a point to all this! My point is that some men really can be cruel but are allowed to get away with it. It always seems to be women who are in the wrong. These guys cover up their lousy behaviour by calling women “crazy” or “bitch” or “whore” or something.
I know I am far from perfect but I know I did a lot less wrong than these men. Still, somehow I’m expected to be a paragon of virtue with not a single blot…Otherwise, I’m subject to extreme character assassination.
Zann says
I think we all stereotype the opposite sex because we get lazy & it’s just easier falling back on “men suck” than trying to analyze, examine, and get outside ourselves in order to get at what’s really going on. When all is said & done, people are complex creatures.
As a hetero woman, I really can’t say what it’s like to date women, and I realize I perceive my women friends in an entirely different way than a man probably would. That said, some of my closest women friends, who I dearly love, can be mega-drama queens, and I imagine they could be nightmares to date or as significant others. I assume the opposite is true with men viewing their guy friends as golden, while women may view those same men as crude, insensitive, immature, players and totally undesirable as mates. Go figure.
BUT I do have something to add about the topic of men finding “replacements” after long-term relationships. I have experienced this with not only widowers, but also divorced men. Take my ex-husband. We’d been married for 20 years when he decided, now that our kids were older, he needed to be “free.” Even though we divorced fairly amicably, it was a huge emotional upheaval for me. I grieved and missed my married life for a long time, even after I started dating again. He, on the other hand, slid immediately and seamlessly into a new relationship, which was followed by a succession of relationships with various women after that. To my knowledge, he never once looked back or expressed any grief over the loss of me, even though he tells others what a great wife and mother to his kids I was. Without judging that (har!) or labeling it as “typical male insensitivity,”all I can say is I don’t understand it and have quit trying to. I also know I’m damn glad I don’t have that capacity, am not that person who slips out of an intimate relationship with no regrets or emotion, see ya later, don’t let the screen door hit ya. I always feel loss and sadness when a relationship ends, even if I was the one who initiated the breakup, and even if the guy was a jerk. If that means I’m too emotional or crazy-lady, I can live with that.
Rachael says
fiona
In this case I think they just mean crazy behavior…As in “oh my god she did that? That’s crazy!”
And yeah…Some women are! My very own best friend had me on her home phone while she full on SCREAMED and cussed out her boyfriend on her cell phone for cheating. “I hope she’s worth it!!!”. Her evidence? His bed smelled different than usual when she was at his place earlier, and she stormed out when (according to her) he couldn’t come up with a good reason. He said “I have no idea what you’re talking about.” According to her this statement was overly defensive.
Now I love this girl dearly but she was acting completely f*cking batshit crazy!
Oh and they are still together now. Probably a good year later.
Fiona says
OK, Rachael that does sound crazy rather than justifiably upset. I also relate to what Zann is saying about regret. I have never been married but I can’t just move from one emotional connection to another overnight. A month ago a guy who I had been seeing for 3 months who until then had treated me well broke up with me in the middle of the night after going out for dinner, then at his suggestion going home and sharing a bottle of champagne in the fridge. We were supposed to be going away for the weekend the next day for my cousin’s birthday and the hotel had been booked weeks ago. After champagne he informed me out of the blue at 23.30 that he saw no future in our relationship, wasn’t ready for a relationship after his divorce etc. He had been drinking champagne so couldn’t drive home until the next day. I was very upset and emotional but not sure that makes me crazy. I then spent a lot of yesterday feeling upset because I found a pair of sunglasses belonging to him that I offered to return. I was only trying to do the decent thing but I got a message back saying he didn’t like them anyway,wishing me well and telling me he is already seeing someone new so I wished him happiness but frankly, I did not need or want to know that. I can’t just jump from one connection to another like that and it puts me off getting involved again.
Clare says
To be honest, I think the stereotypes represent what’s different between the sexes, things we don’t understand about the opposite sex.
For example, I think “stubborn” in men represents that we find them less yielding than women. They may not be stubborn at all, just strong-willed. And “sensitive” often represents men’s experience of women as more emotionally expressive.
These are stereotypes because they’re not well understood by the opposite sex. Funnily enough, the better you learn to understand the opposite sex, the less “stubborn” men seem, and the less “crazy” women seem.
Fair enough, some men *DO* have issues, and some women *DO* have issues, but I really think the gold lies in trying to see the world from a different viewpoint. I think that’s the beauty and unparalelled learning curve that is relationships.
Heather says
The comments about “Plain Jane” and “Nice Guy” make a whole lot of sense. I was always “Friend Zoned” or told I was “really cool” but because I was quiet, not full of drama, respectful, and bookish, I was always passed over, and it really took a hit on my self-esteem in my 20s. I felt very sorry for myself and thought wow, guys really suck. I’m nice, they say they want someone nice, but they go for the bitches.
Nowadays as I was saying in an earlier thread, I don’t much care what men think of me. If they think I’m too bookish, too quiet, not dramatic enough, not pretty enough, then hey, so be it. I am no longer going to twist myself into a pretzel to make some guy happy, who might not even stick around for a lifetime commitment anyways. I am who I am, I’ve done work on myself and I do feel better about myself, and there we are. If a guy doesn’t think I’m good enough, well fair enough, because I think he’s not good enough either. 🙂
Although I will say I’m not so sure it’s a lack of “being in touch with our femininity/masculinity” as much as we just might have an easy-going nature. For the most part, I am pretty laid back and flexible, and my friends will tell you that. I don’t flip out if they have to cancel plans every now and again, call my friends screaming, etc. etc. In fact most times if I get irked at my friends, they never know about it, unless it’s something really really egregious. I figure I have too much stress now as it is, without having other dramas.
I do find it interesting though when I DO stand up for myself, I’m considered a “bitch” by some guys. Which is fine, since I consider overly assertive guys, “assholes.” So there ya go! 🙂
Helen says
Did anyone else look at the link Evan posted on state stereotypes? To me, this is the funniest part, especially the “boring states.” Who goes around doing a Google search on “Why is North Dakota so boring?” Someone would have to be awfully bored to ask that in the first place…
As for the gender stereotypes: I agree with Mia that people who generalize like this probably had bad experiences with only a small number of individuals who made a larger impression than they should have. These negative stereotypes don’t appeal to me anyway – they’re very reactive and disempowered, placing the blame on others (on an entire half of the population) rather than trying to do something about oneself. Heck, give me North Dakota any day.
Julia says
@Heather I was friend zoned in my 20s for the opposite reasons, I was too masculine. I had always been the top student, the kid who always raised their hand so often I want to talk intellectual and state my opinions pretty clearly. Men liked talking to me and hanging out but getting asked out on a date was inconceivable. Meanwhile my friends who just smiled and flirted got all the attention from guys.
Now I get plenty of attention, at 31 I look about 26, I am pretty and have a decent body but I still fall into the masculine trap on dates. I feel like its mostly their fault however. I work in politics, so men always want to talk politics with me, which is great but by the end of the date it never feels like we got to flirt.
Heather says
@ Julia,
I totally hear what you’re saying. I was always “the brain” in school, school came easily to me, and I LOVED to read. In high school and college, at least where I went anyways, being smart was considered “not cool” or “masculine” so I was friend zoned or ignored totally. Or if I did date, I got the nasty, mean and abusive ones who could probably sense my insecurities. So because that had been my experience, of course I saw it as, well guys are abusive, that’s just how they are. And when I married one, well there ya go.
The guys I did like, well, they liked talking with me since I liked to read and could hold an intelligent conversation. But then when that was over, they went over to the bitchy bimbos. I never could figure it out.
Once I got therapy, and ditched the ex husband and went on dates with some, gasp, NICE men who weren’t abusive, mean assholes, well I learned that there might be some hope out there. And now I’m dating a genuinely nice guy who does have balls. I’ve seen him defend me once or twice when some drunk twit almost knocked me over.
It’s definitely alot better now, the therapy and self-help and getting away from an abusive partner did wonders for me. I’m much stronger and confident and am well able to say hey, if my guy leaves me now, I will be OK. I do not “need” a man, and if I decide to ever date again, I know I can hold out for a nice guy, not an abusive jerk. And I can stand up for myself. I’ve told my boyfriend before when he made the big mistake of snapping at me “because he was stressed out”, that it’s unacceptable behavior, I stopped tolerating it in my ex, and I would not tolerate it from him either. He respected that I wouldn’t tolerate nonsense.
Lucy says
Evan, I wanted to know your thoughts on something. Do you think how someone’s parents relate to each other has a huge impact on how they conduct romantic relationships later in life? If there is some negative influence, can this be mitigated?
As far as reinforcing stereotypes goes, this seems to be a pretty big factor.
I think being aware of equal roles can hide the subtleties of what actually goes on in a relationship. A couple can play the traditional roles of the man as breadwinner and the woman staying at home but it does not mean that the woman is being oppressed and that the couple don’t respect each other. It’s only what works well for them together. Equally, I don’t think men deserve the bad rep for choosing to be at home with the children. I don’t see people having different ideas of roles as a huge problem unless they are projecting their own expectations onto other people, which unfortunately happens a lot.
I have to commend you for your blog because reading it has really empowered me. All this stereotyping just shows how easy it is to blame your own misfortune on what other people are doing.
Lauren says
I think it depends on what you believe and focus on. If you learn from your past about what you don’t want in relationships, then write down what you do want and focus on that. Believe that an amazing, understanding partner will find you and you find them. Also looking for the good in others helped too or looking at it from their point of view. They obviously get upset for a reason too, just like we get upset. That’s just my thoughts 🙂
Francesca says
The other day I asked my boyfriend this
“what percentage of the time when I get upset are you confused as to why I am upset”
The answer was 70%, 70%! I wouldn’t blame him if he thought I was crazy with stats like that. When he’s upset/grumpy I ALWAYS know why, I can usually predict it as well from the events of the day.
I don’t think stereotypes are a bad thing, stereotypes by their very nature are intrinsically true. They have helped me understand myself and others so much more.
In my case I can’t deny the emotional/moody stereotype. My boyfriend has to deal with it probably once every 4 weeks or so. I used to be worried about getting upset in front of the guys I dated. I was so grateful that I’d found someone who could just hold me when I got upset. I love him for it.
RW says
LOL, Francesca! I’m pretty sure the statistic would apply to my husband as well. I haven’t asked him yet but I’m certain of the answer. On the other hand, when he’s upset I know the cause 90% of the time. The other 10% is easily guessed. I’m not sure whether I should flatter myself by thinking I’m better at reading him or if he should flatter himself by thinking that he communicates more clearly. It’s probably a bit of both!
To your point about learning from stereotypes, completely agreed. I want him to read my mind and respond accordingly without my having to fly a big, red “I’m upset flag.” He says I’m not clear in the lead up to my anger and I send mixed signals. Classic embodiment of stereotypes, I guess even though otherwise we are not very stereotypical at all.
Michael17 says
I used the expression “not in touch with masculinity/femininity” to get at a concept that frankly, I am having a tough time getting words around.
There are a lot of great guys who don’t really have what some might call the “problem” characteristics that many men tend to have. They are emotionally literate, great conversationalists, considerate, clean up after themselves, not avid sports-watchers, and on top of that, smart, financially secure, reasonably “confident” (whatever that means) and good-looking too. And yet these men struggle to get second dates–they seem to hear “you’re a great guy but no chemistry” way too often.
I was thinking of guys such as these when I used the phrase “not in touch with his masculinity”. But that’s not really fair. He might be very much in touch with his masculinity. But women are quick to write this guy off, even with all he has going for him. What is going on?
Michael17 says
Analogously, there are a lot of wonderful girls who don’t have a lot of the “problem” characteristics that many women have. They are low-maintenance, even-keel, logical, say what they mean and mean what they say (when they say “nothing” they really mean “nothing”!), like watching sports, and even could be good-looking. And yet these girls rarely get asked out–guys seem to always overlook them.
I was thinking about girls such as these when I used the phrase “not in touch with her femininity”. But that’s not really fair either. Who knows what her inner world is like or what she is actually like in a relationship?
It’s different from girl to girl, but this is my take as what is going on. I like it when a woman has a feminine fashion sense about her. Across the coffee shop from me there is this girl in black workout tights and flip-flops, with freshly-painted toe-nails. I also like it when a woman giggles a lot and has a voice full of emotion. She knows how to lower it to draw you in.
I’m sure some people reading this blog are going to be offended. I do try to tell it as I see it, even if it pisses some people off.
runnergirl says
Okay I’ll bite, although I usually just read and don’t post. I’m just overwhelmed by the stereotypes. How about the fireman who posts that he has a fire down below. Shouldn’t he know how to put it out since he is a fireman? He expects me to deal with his fire down below? I teach anthropology, I don’t no nothing about fires. How about the guy who tells me that the aliens built the pyramids? He doesn’t just “tell me”, he TELLS ME! Then there’s the guy who insists that we evolved from chimps. I try to explain that if we evolved from chimps, they wouldn’t still exist. To no avail. The specific guys I’ve encountered know everything about everything. This is the first time I’ve ventured out of my little ivory tower and I’m aghast. I’m totally in awe. I’ve been lectured to and told the way it is by too many guys to count and I’ve only been online for 90 days. Maybe I shouldn’t reveal that I teach Anthropology? Maybe I shouldn’t reveal that I’m an attorney? Maybe I should get off-line? I make a concerted effort not to be challenging but I get nothing but defensive males who need to put me in my place…where ever that is! Sheesh. Even when their online profiles say they are looking for an intelligent woman, they slam me.
henriette says
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/19/us/19marriage.html This is a bit off topic but applicable to the theme of this overall blog.
Clare says
Michael # 37
It’s an interesting point that you make. My best friend is probably the coolest person I’ve ever met – bright, sweet, no drama whatsoever, completely straight down the line, self-sufficient and independent with many of her own interests, yet very caring. She’s pretty too. Guys and girls alike adore her, but she is always passed over for girlfriend status.
My theory about this is that she is actually too independent. Whilst you love spending time with her, you don’t get the feeling like she needs you at all. She just seems so self-contained, and whilst she says she longs for a relationship, she seems perfectly happy with her life as is.
I believe that a big part of someone falling in love with you and committing to you has to do with them being able to picture their life with you in it, and of how you would compliment one another’s lives. No matter how independent you are, people get into relationships to get what they cannot provide for themselves and to provide that for the other person. The idea of “not needing” anyone is a bit of a myth… and if it really is true for you, don’t be surprised if other people keep a little bit of a distance 😉
Heather says
@ Clare,
Well that could be a good point there. I became VERY independent over the last few years and I made it clear, without bashing a fellow over the head, that I have a good life and don’t need anyone to “complete me” to quote from a famous film. I’ve become very happy with my life, my friends, my books, and I recently adopted a kitten. I’m busy with my buddies, helping my family and dealing with a seriously ill parent. So it’s not like I “need” a guy.
Plus, unfortunately, there are a number of guys, NOT all, but a number of them, who say they like to help a woman in distress but as soon as she starts to lean on him in her time of need, he vanishes or gets resentful, and it’s happened to me with my ex husband, and with an ex boyfriend, so I just learned not to lean on any man I had a relationship with.
I may have come across as “too” independent to some guys, but hey, I wasn’t going to chance having that thrown right back in my face, leaning on a guy in a bad time and then hearing……”You’re too needy.”
Michael17 says
Clare #40:
I feel for your best friend. Just as I can relate to those guys who have all these things going for them and yet can’t hold a woman’s interest (I’ve been that type of guy and TBH I still feel that I am that way sometimes).
Dating is in many ways more painful for them. That they have all these things going for them and yet they STILL can’t keep a woman’s or man’s interest despite all that, actually hurts more than getting passed over because you’re not tall enough, pretty enough, handsome enough, in shape enough, or rich enough. That you have all these great things going for you and yet you STILL struggle in dating tends to get you to think that there is something deeply, fundamentally wrong with YOU.
Julia says
@Clare and @Michael The thing about someone who supports themselves is that, by a certain point in your life, you kinda have to be able to support yourself. I am 31 and I’ve never even lived with a partner, I have to support myself, there really isn’t another option. Would a man rather be with a 31 year old woman who still lives at home and allows her parents to support her? I should hope not. Just because I don’t need a man to pay my rent or call a mechanic when my car needs repairs doesn’t mean I don’t want and need men for other things, like companionship, to father my children, etc.
Erinlee says
Someone commented that insecure men suppress their feminine qualities, I’m going to have to disagree with that. Men suppress their feminine qualities, because that’s what society has raised us to believe is proper. Even as children boys are tought to be tough, not cry, etc., while girls are are treated more tenderly and encouraged to share their feelings. The lists overall are pretty accurate as far as how many and women are perceived but every person is going to be different, more of this less of that. I view it with humor, there is not a list in the world that could accurately describe every man, and every woman.
Persephone says
Erinlee, I agree with you about societal expectations. This is the classic “nature vs nurture” argument.
If it were biological, then the stereotypes would be present in all cultures. The lists are made with the perspective of white, mainstream Western culture. Even, you are writing about Culturally biased stereotypes. I interact with cultures all over the globe. The stereotypes are not universal.
Mia says
Michael – given how many people I see all the time who are fat, ugly, eccentric, awkward, or whatever who have found love, I doubt there is anything really wrong with the people you describe. The problem is that they may be on the wrong track. There are several mating tracks – on one, people who are simple, average looking, and look for nice mates who share their values often get married by their 20s and never played the field much. The other track is filled with picky people who like games, strategies, drama, looks, and wealth. Sometimes the simple, normal people do not want to get married right away after college, though, and they unwittingly wind up on the second track filled with people who crave dysfunction and can never be happy.
miskwa says
Evan
You forgot a couple; men cannot multitask to save their lives, women cannot stick to doing one thing at a time. Men tend to be sloppy, women, anal retentively neat, men are visual and spatial, women verbal. A lot of steroetyping is just that but some is because male/female brains are wired differently. Together, we complement each other but we must understand how the other works. In addition to that, all of these traits are on a continuum (well maybe not the multitasking part). I know lots of men who are great empathizers (my ex was one), and some women who don’t wanna hear about it. The “rebound” thing has always been a BIG problem. Yep, men are designed to “get over it, forget her” and move on fast. Women aren’t, period. we tend to grieve, process the loss, figure out what went wrong, maybe move on which, in the case of a really bad breakup, years. The problem w/ rebounding is that the guy often hasn’t dealt with or processed his loss and being used as a rebound aint fun.
Clare says
@ Heather and Julia
Yeah, I know. I happen to be a particularly independent woman myself. I’ve looked after myself for the majority of my life and it’s comfortable for me to be that way. Guys who want to coddle me and make all my decisions for me tend to have me cringeing in horror! 😉
Some guys are not comfortable with that, and that’s ok. Rather than trying to change myself I found a guy who let me have all the independence I desired, but was still there for me.
Because I’m an independent person in a relationship though, I still find I have to consciously give myself reminders to “be part of the team” – make decisions as a couple, allow him to do things for me, show vulnerability. It’s something I have to consciously remind myself of.
Kurt says
Clare (#40), I have heard that “too independent” argument mentioned as to why certain women get passed over for relationships. However, I suspect that the women who claim to be very independent go on dates and behave aloof or somewhat disinterested and the men who date them simply give up because they think that the woman either isn’t putting forth enough effort or they assume that the woman isn’t interested in them.
From a man’s perspective I can tell you that sometimes women will go out on dates with men whom they either don’t like or don’t like that much and no man wants to waste his time and money on a woman who isn’t that into him. So for me personally if I get the feeling that a woman isn’t putting forth enough effort or doesn’t seem interested enough, I will stop asking the woman out.
Fusee says
@ Clare #40/47 and Heather #41:
Interesting developement of this thread! As an independant woman myself and yet relatively easily attracting LTR-minded men, I can confirm that finding a balance between independance and interdependence is crucial when interested in growing a harmonious, solid, and happy long-term relationship.
Re: independence: I’m 33 and I’ve lived by myself for ten years (through graduate school and a few non-cohabiting LTRs), purchased a condo at 26 on my own, spent the last ten years in two different foreign countries, traveled the world alone including stints in Australia, Guatemala, and a long one in India, trained myself in various skills from martial arts to social dancing, from foreign languages to Asian massage techniques, have been volunteering in the health care field for the last four years, and I could go on and on. When I really want to do it, I go for it and do not wait for a man to make it happen for me, or for a female friend to give me company. My emotional support system is made of family members and female friends who are dependable, truthful, and loyal.
And yet I can yield. When single I support myself 100%. When starting a relationship, I allow the new partner to fullfil a progressively increasing % of my ongoing needs + a part of the new needs that the relationship creates. I show my vulnerabilities. I talk about my regrets and dreams. I express my gratitude for help and support I do not receive when single. And I start all of this early. On date #1. A relationship requires sharing vulnerabilities. And we are all vulnerable about something.
However the % of needs that I let my partner progressively cover will never exceed 20-33% depending on the needs. Intellectually I am still independent and the guy “knows” it, but emotionally and logistically as I become part of a team and start to actively cultivate an interdependent relationship, the guy “feels” the reality – and the pleasure – of fulfilling some of my needs without experiencing pressure of facing unresonnable expectations. He is needed and appreciated, but he has not become the rescuer of a lost soul and knows that I’ll be fine if he chooses to walk away. I’ll just take my 20-33% back and take care of those myself again.
And this balance works great!
Mia says
I agree that independence is not a problem for women in attracting relationships, but it depends how you come off. There are certain women who come off as materialistic, too busy to see a guy more than once a week, who come off as boasting of their accomplishments and intelligence, and seem a little cold. Showing vulnerability is really important, and so is being soft and welcoming and appreciative. None of that means you have to play dumb and dependent.
Clare says
Hey Fusee
I agree very much with your approach. I do the same thing myself. I know I’m *able* to take care of myself, but I listen out for the things he likes to do as a team and I do those. And I accept (and appreciate!) the support that I get, enjoying that it makes my life a bit easier.
I do think as an independent woman it’s important to be with the right person. A man who respects and likes that independent quality. It has been for me anyway. It’s never going to completely gel with some men, and I’ve no doubt there are some men who might find me a little aloof or cool or independent for their taste. That’s ok.
I do think as an independent woman, even with an independent man, it’s important to make a conscious effort to make the guy feel valued and as though you are interested, and to show affection, warmth and vulnerability.
Michael17 says
When I made my comments, I wasn’t talking about how “independent” a woman is per se. I know some very independent women who come across as both strong AND feminine.
Just as Nice Guys have trouble creating attraction, so do Women Who Are Too Logical. I don’t think I’d want to date a girl where I’d be the emotional one in the relationship.
The book “Way Of The Superior Man” by David Deida illustrates what I am getting at here. Some of his writing is a tad woo-woo, but he explains masculinity, femininity, and the polarity between the two quite well.
Lelya says
So why can’t we understand each other? Why can’t we hear each other when we speak the same language? How do we lead our discussions and take part in the dialogs? Are we really so different?
kelli says
I’ve noticed men are typically just as emotional as women, but are trained to show it differently (like shutting down or tuning out, rather than look like a sissy). I knew a guy who prided himself in being all macho & “emotionally stable” & always taunted women/ANYONE with feelings &, yet, was the most emotionally immature person I knew. He got explosively defensive constantly when hurt/insulted- but apparently anger isn’t an emotion because it’s “tough”. Thank god guys don’t all act like that
Persephone says
I worked in heavy manufacturing in a male dominated job. Actually I was the only woman. It was like being a fly on the wall. Men are more emotional than women. Jealousy is a very real emotion. They get jealous of each other. They get angry, mad, irrationally competitive.
The reason women are stereotyped as being emotional is because men get intimidated by womens tears, so then they consta tly complain about it. Part of controlling women is to perpetuate stereotypes that conveniently boost their world view. Example: “women too emotional to be president.”
Persephone says
Evan I am not sure how well received this will be to because it contradicts your thinking. I got an email from you advertising your online dating services, including writing ads. You gave an example of a man who decribed his outdoorsy hobbies. You said women would not want to respond to his online dating profile. He sounds perfect to me! As an outdoorsy woman, I cannot find outdoorsy men. I realize this does not fit the stereotype, but many of my GFs feel the same.
Persephone says
Yes, stereotypes exist for a reason. But it ain’t solely the reason Evan says it is. It is “convenient” to mold genders into stereotypes so certain societies can maintain Order. They want to perpetuate certain stereotypes about women because it fits their narrative to maintain a Biblical social order–women are “help meets.” Read the creepy stuff from James Dobson, Focus on the Family. It is gross.