Pity the Pretty: An Ode to Attractive Women Who Can’t Find Boyfriends

Evan Marc Katz

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Dear Evan,

I am 25 years old and have never been in a serious relationship.  I am a very attractive girl and I tend to meet guys easily and go on dates mostly every weekend. My problem is that it never leads to anything more than that. I don’t know what I’m doing wrong, but the date will go really well and things tend to either move really slow, I won’t hear from them after our date for a week or so, or not at all.  My friends all have boyfriends, and I’m really looking to settle down.  Can you help me?  By the way, it never gets farther than kissing with me.  I realize that if they don’t stick around because I won’t have sex with them, then at least I know. It just seems that’s all they are looking for. It seems that attractive girls only get guys that want to sleep with them.

Why can’t I meet a guy who sees me as more?

Ashley

Dear Ashley,

Today, I’m going to take a controversial stance. I’m going heap some sympathy on the pretty girl.

Does the pretty girl have the same issues as the fat girl? No. The pretty girl never lacks for attention. Heads turn when she walks into the room. Men leap to attention and whisper to each other before approaching. Yes, the pretty girl has more dates than she needs and probably has a waiting list a mile long. What could possibly be wrong with this scenario?

By being singled out for being attractive, you’re never, ever considered “normal.”

Well, if you’re a pretty girl or you know a pretty girl, you know exactly what’s wrong.

You’re an object to men.

You never know why someone likes you.

You can be intimidating without trying.

You can come across as aloof even if you’re just shy.

You’re instantly hated by a lot of other women.

You’re assumed to be dumb by many men.

You may be insecure, but people have trouble believing it.

You’re given things by men for no reason (Free dinners! Vacations! No speeding tickets!), which creates an odd power dynamic.

You’re catered to so frequently that you may lack some kindness, empathy or social grace. When you’re constantly put on a pedestal, it’s hard to be in sync with “normal” people. This is the same thing that afflicts celebrities, by the way. Except they get to claim “diva” status. You’re just known as a bitch.

That last one is just my observation about beautiful people and doesn’t necessarily apply to you. But the point is, by being singled out for being attractive, you’re never, ever considered “normal”…

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137 Comments »Filed Under Dating Tips & Advice, Favorites, Sex & Relationship Advice, Uncategorized

137 Responses to “Pity the Pretty: An Ode to Attractive Women Who Can’t Find Boyfriends”

1. cinnamon 1

   Evan, I rate this your best article so far. I just wonder why you consider it as controversial?…

2. Selena 2

   My impression was that she wasn’t stringing guys along without sex. It was that she wasn’t having sex on the first date and THEY were the one’s who were either taking things really slow, or never calling again.

   Maybe the problem is the guys she is agreeing to go out with? Perhaps she tends to pick the most shallow men who are accustomed to *bagging* one beautiful girl after the next every weekend.

   Ashley, ask your girlfriends their honest opinion regarding what they think the problem is when it comes to your dating. It may be you are doing something you are completely unaware of, but they can clearly see.

3. Marc 3

   Just because Ashley feels the dates she’s gone on went well, it doesn’t mean the guys do. The nice guys out there get very easily intimidated by the hot chicks out there, and if they sense the slightest bit of the aloofness Evan referred to in his response, they may think she’s not interested, and not call again.

4. Honey 4

   I wonder how she is meeting these guys? Maybe if she meets guys through friends, or if she meets them in places where it’s clear they have some kind of connection (like by taking an extra course at the cc or volunteering for the Humane Society) she will make the initial contact through some other type of interaction than sexual, she will have better luck. If she is meeting them through Match or some kind of traditional dating service, maybe she can pick a more specialized one. Evan has all kinds in the sidebar, though I think he could stand to add some of the veggie singles sites

   Also, are these hot guys (who might, as others have pointed out, be shallow and not call if she doesn’t put out right away) or regular joes (who might feel patronized or suspicious if she hasn’t established some non-sexual connection with them prior to the date that would explain her interest)?

   Without knowing more, it’s hard to tell, though I think Evan is right on. Let us know how it goes!

5. Steve 5

   Ashley;

   You wrote that you want to know that a man is interested in who you are in addition to what you are. Venues like bars, singles events or even random encounters on the street are going to favor meeting men who are interested in what you are. At least starting off.

   If you want to meet men who are interested in who you are, find something YOU like to do that isn’t focused on single people, something that will bring you into contact with single men, and something that generates conversations.

   If a man keeps engaging you in conversations past initial meetings and he is interested in the content of what you are saying then he is interested in who you are. You probably can tell when someone is interested in what you are saying, but disagreeing with you and asking you pointed questions ( NICELY ) are good indicators that he cares about what you are saying beyond the fact an attractive woman is talking to him.

   Don’t go looking in nerd heavy venues or with political volunteer groups so much. Those guys will be just as bad about focusing on what you are, but since they are underexposed to beautiful women they will not be as graceful about it as the smooth bar room operators. I say that being a person who goes to such venues.

6. Steve 6

   Honey;

   Volunteering for the HSUS will be a female heavy venue. Slim pickings.

7. Honey 7

   @ Steve–it was just a for instance, though the point is well taken.

8. Lance 8

   First off, if the guys are making themselves scarce after one date DESPITE her beauty, then she’s doing something wrong that’s de-attracting them. Either she’s got an serious emotional issue that’s plainly apparent, or maybe she’s talking about marriage right off the bat (notice the tip-off in her letter). Remember one of the cardinal sins of first dating? Don’t talk about marriage right away!!

   If Ashley is a 10, and for the sake of argument we can assume she is, I would advise her to seek out men who are used to being with women of this caliber. A player would be an example, but also a slightly older guy with high social value could do the trick (say, a well-to-do exec with good social skills). If the guys are non-plussed by her beauty, then they’ll seek out whatever else makes her special personality-wise to continue the interaction. I agree with Honey here, she’s probably making herself available to the wrong guys.

9. Nikita 9

   I can identify with Ashley in this post. I’m not drop dead gorgeous but have been called pretty/beautiful/sexy by members of both genders. I’m 26 now but have yet to find someone that I can trust. I’ve dated plentiful (not people I meet in bars) but at the end of the day, most of them seem interested in having a trophy on their arm.

   For example, to date, two married men have tried to start affairs with me (unsuccessfully I might add), I get asked out in supermarkets, get “hey sexy” comments in the gym even while minding my own business…

   Like Evans said, I do indeed rely on this to boost my self-esteem. I have surprisingly low self-esteem stemming from bad acne as a teenager. Despite graduating top of my class, being called beautiful and having a great figure, the low self-esteem persists and it doesn’t help when all the men seem to be after one thing.

   So when you see that beautiful woman walking down the street, don’t just envy her, she may be more insecure than you expect and that aloof exterior only a front to ward off unwanted advances. Spare a thought, give her a smile and start a sincere conversation with her. You never know that she might say yes.

10. A-L 10

    Ashley,

    I would second the idea that you talk to your friends and see if they can tell you if they know you’re doing something wrong, or perhaps ask a guy you dated who seemed pretty forthright and might tell you the truth. Because as distasteful as this might sound, if you hold up your end of the conversation and are interesting to talk to, I’ve found it’s unusual not to get a second date (though I’m no supermodel either, so perhaps that changes things). To illustrate my point, I might e-mail with a hot guy, and even go out with him if his correspondence isn’t scintillating, but if he can’t hold up his end of the conversation, things go no further even if he wants to. It sounds as though some of the guys who are really slow about contacting you might be deliberating, thinking that it wasn’t the most thrilling date of their lives, but when they think about how beautiful you are, they decide to give you another shot in the hopes that things improve.

    One other question for you though. How old are the guys you’re dating? A lot of guys in their early to mid 20s aren’t interested in settling down with a long-term relationship and if they get that vibe from you, they may just cut things short since they don’t want to hurt you or get involved in a messy situation. Perhaps if you dated more guys in their late 20s or in their 30s, things might improve.

11. vino 11

    Not much fact to go on here, but I’ll take a stab at this. FYI, Evan’s spot on w/his advice.

    “…the date will go really well …” Maybe the dates really didn’t go that well for the guys. Maybe Ashley’s a good-looking bore. Maybe the guys are tools. Who knows? The result is that they guys clearly don’t want to go further in the dating process with Ashley. That is the common denominator – the guys don’t come back. Why? Let’s look at what else she said.

    “… and things tend to either move really slow, I won’t hear from them after our date for a week or so, or not at all. My friends all have boyfriends, and I’m really looking to settle down. By the way, it never gets farther than kissing with me. I realize that if they don’t stick around because I won’t have sex with them, then at least I know.”

    As I read her words, it is Ashley that wants to slow everything. She will do no more than kiss. She doesn’t specifically say, but I get the impression that that no matter the stage of dating, that’s all she will do, at least until he commits to being with her, and perhaps formally via engagement, etc.

    She wants to ‘settle down.’ I wonder if she’s communicated that to her dates. That’s kind of a turn off for a first date convo, especially when you know your only payoff is a kiss. I say the guys likely know, because that’s usually communicated directly or indirectly. And kissing’s possibly the only payoff even if you do commit. Not saying it’s all about sex, but as Evan said, that’s an important component if there’s no likely prospect at some point, why bother? I think most guys would rather bang a 6-7 than just kiss a 10.

    More importantly, what would put me off is the attitude that she sets the rules. She will do no more than kiss. You must commit to her before anything beyond a kiss, presumably. Maybe nothing even if one did commit. Her letter is silent on this. Why be with someone if they get to control the important aspects of a relationship? 1) It isn’t fun if you’re the controlled, and 2) it isn’t a relationship if that’s the case.

    No matter how good the external packaging, some things clearly aren’t worth it to the guys she dates. That’s the bottom line, for it’s the common result.

12. Sarah 12

    Wow, this is my life story. Thanks Evan.

13. cinnamon 13

    “By the way, it never gets farther than kissing with me. I realize that if they don’t stick around because I won’t have sex with them, then at least I know”.
    I agree that the way Ashley has formulated herself sounds quite ultimative and rigid. As Evan wrote, that rigidity probably results from a wish to protect herself. That’s understood, no one wants to be harmed.
    I wonder if any of you guys have an advice for Ashley on if (and if yes then how) she could communicate her concerns/fears to her date. Could that be one way to reduce her insecurity and his confusion?

14. Kitty 14

    Ev,

    Great response to Ashley and LOVE the video. You’re the best!

15. A-L 15

    From the letter: The date will go really well and things tend to either move really slow, I won’t hear from them after our date for a week or so, or not at all.

    On the whole kissing/no sex issue of Ashley’s, I agree with Selena that I don’t think she’s not willing to have sex. I think she doesn’t want to have sex on the first couple of dates, hardly a rigid, controlling position.

    Also, what do you mean they move really slow? If they’re asking you out again, and are expressing interest, then it’s a good thing. Perhaps there’s the wish of a sudden, head-over-heels Hollywood romance and when it’s not happening, it’s considered slow? I understand holding no interest in the guys who don’t ask you out again, or take a week to do so, but this third category of guys may merit a closer look.

16. Selena 16

    Actually, not wanting to have sex on the first couple dates is a rather common position. Which makes me wonder if Ashley is either picking “I’m only here for sex” kind of guys, or if there is something in her demeanor on a date that is making them leery of dating her further. We need more info than just her statement she is a very pretty girl.

17. Alan 17

    I’m always fascinated how the advice-seeker’s letter is analyzed word-for-word to try and glean further details of their situation and experiences. I’m not discouraging this per se, just observing.

    On the other side of the fence, I’ll toss out a 100% agreement with Evan’s perspective as a presumably average nice guy faced with a very attractive woman. I’m more wary, more hesitant to approach, more likely to make (poor) assumptions, less likely to even try. I have enough problems with women who are not as attractive, I really need to compound things with the additional concerns and guard? I’m actually more likely to go after a 6-9 than a 10 because of that. It’s self-selecting and self-limiting, but it’s there.

    So what’s the answer? The suggestions above are a great start and I’ll add one more. Try to identify the qualities you’re looking for in a partner and actively look for them. If you’re pursuing online dating, look for the non-generic profiles that catch your eye. Look for common activities or activities that evoke the qualities you’re after. Hardly a non-obvious suggestion, but from the description of things it may be the case that you’re not going out with the guys you want to, and that is something over which you have some control.

18. Steve 18

    Ashley;

    I apologize about not posting on topic for your question, but I would like to thank you for this quote from your email:

    
    I am a very attractive girl and I tend to meet guys easily and go on dates mostly every weekend. My problem is that it never leads to anything more than that. I don’t know what I’m doing wrong, but the date will go really well and things tend to either move really slow, I won’t hear from them after our date for a week or so, or not at all.
    

    Great first dates and an inexplicable lack of interest in a second date is a recurring theme here. Evan has given out the sound of advice that unless you have evidence do not assume you did anything wrong or that is about you at all. In the absence of more information it could just as easily be a simple lack of a spark or about something going with the other person/their life.

    If a knockout can experience this same type of problem then the rest of us can accept Evan’s advice a little bit more easily.

19. Markus 19

    What are you like as a person Ashley? I don’t care how good looking you are. If I think you’re not a good person I won’t be able to stand being around you. I once dated this girl I thought was smoking and we had great chemistry. Dumbass me cut everyone else loose. Then I’m over her house for one of the first times and I ask where her recyclables are. “I don’t recycle. Just throw it in the trash.” Done. I’m not saying you’re like this but perhaps you’re not looking at the big picture.

20. Andrea 20

    I agree completely with what A-L said in comment #10. Talk to a guy you’ve dated, or a male friend offers perspective. It’s one of the reasons I like to keep male friends around.

    I’m reminded of the Ginger-Maryanne idea (not the threesome or girl-on-girl fantasies, so stop thinking it ) and the idea of the “movie star” archetype being the one to screw and the “girl next door” archetype being the girlfriend/wife material.

    I can’t tell you how many times I’ve gotten fed up because guys seemed to only want to sleep with me. I’m not gorgeous, maybe not even “pretty”, but there are things about me that bring that out in men. I feel so weird saying this (do we all feel uncomfortably vain when discussing such things?), but as flattering as it is- and I’m NOT complaining- it’s also sometimes frustrating when guys comment on my “great ass” or “hot body”. Sometimes I want to scream that there’s more to me than my bum, and I’ve heard women say similar about body parts (at least a guy isn’t staring at my ass when he’s talking to me). Not that we’re not thankful, but there’s a hindrance, one that comes with feelings of guilt for thinking that way (that is, for those of us without big egos and with humility).

    Getting back to topic… Guys are visual, very sexual and easily distracted to begin with. I imagine that sometimes it’s difficult for them to get past the visual and into the brain. They get better with age.

    Note to Evan:
    Are your “observations” about “the pretty girl” your way of expressing the perception that men have rather than what you know to be true? If it is, I almost missed it. If not, I’m giving you that out anyway.

    Based on conversations that I’ve had with both genders, I believe that the idea that “the pretty girl has more dates than she needs and probably has a waiting list a mile long. ” is a myth. Males assume that the pretty girl is unavailable, attached, not interested, out of their league. I used to have a male friend who claimed to go for the hottest girls, assuming that other men would be too intimidated to. It worked for him. Of course “pretty” is also different from “drop dead gorgeous” or “very attractive”, which is how Ashley describes herself.

21. dadshouse 21

    Lance is right on – men want to be with a beautiful woman, and will do anything to be with her. To use EMK’s terminology, men want a trophy. So if the guys are leaving after one date, something’s wrong. She must be de-attracting them. Maybe it’s the sex they want and she won’t give. But who knows?

    Some beautiful women know they are trophies to men, and use that to their personal advantage. They play men for spas, getaways, jewelry, etc. A lot of men who figure this out will simply leave them for someone else. Maybe this reader expects too much material attention, and the guys see right through that?

    Wealthy men who are seeking a genuine connection face the same problem as a beautiful woman seeking that. It sucks when women see you only for the size of your wallet.

22. Steve 22

    
    Selena May 22nd 2008 at 03:42 am 16
    Actually, not wanting to have sex on the first couple dates is a rather common position. Which makes me wonder if Ashley is either picking I’m only here for sex kind of guys, or if there is something in her demeanor on a date that is making them leery of dating her further. We need more info than just her statement she is a very pretty girl.
    

    Ditto & Amen.

    I am a nice guy, decent looking, not in a bad spot in my life, & I have Sicilian blood coursing through my veins. I don’t expect nor I do I even want sex on the first few dates. Its nice to take a little bit of time to get to know the person first. You know, last name, paper versus plastic, Kirk or Picard, etc.

23. Steve 23

    Markus;

    Post #19. Yes, nice girls recycle!

    Seriously, I’ve had your experience and I know where you are coming from. Looks will get me there, but they are not enough to keep me around.

24. Sam 24

    “. . . men want to be with a beautiful woman, and will do anything to be with her. To use EMK’s terminology, men want a trophy.”

    Wanting a trophy might be superficial, but the great feeling you have from being with one is absolutely genuine. I’ve only dated a 10 once in my life, but it boosted my self-esteem more than being hired by my jobs and more than getting into an excellent college. Dating a 10 inspired me to improve myself in various ways too, from exercising more to improving my mind to even trying to get along with my parents better.

    Just because I got a lot of joy just from being seen with this girl doesn’t mean I didn’t sincerely like and respect her though (she was as smart as she was good looking). And just because I worshipped her for her looks doesn’t mean that I would put up with anything from her either, in fact, the reason we broke up was that she didn’t do as much to try to make me happy as I did to make her happy.

    My point is that a trophy brings genuine, if superficially induced, happiness.

    We are who we are and looks matter.

25. Eda 25

    Ashley,

    Based on your post, I get the impression that you may be a little reserved. If that’s the case, what you think be open and inviting may not be interpreted that way by the men you are dating. Although you may feel that laughing and smiling and having a good time is a clear signal to a guy that you are open to seeing him again, it may not be so obvious to him. Seems crazy, I know, but it’s true. So, if you really are having a good time with a man and you want to go out with him again, you may want to send louder, clearer signals. I am going to suggest a few simple things that you might try.

    First, make certain that you really pay attention and really listen to what he is saying and ask follow up questions that indicate you are genuinely interested in him. Get him to talk about the things he loves.. his passions…not just his job. Don’t make him feel like you are interviewing him — you aren’t. You are just trying to get to know him. Make certain that you are looking him in the eye when you talk — don’t let you eyes wander all around. Make him feel like the center of your attention.

    This next can be a hard habit to break if you do it — don’t cross your arms when you are with a guy that you like. It makes him feel that you are closed off and not interested. Lean in to listen when he talks to you. It might be the subtle things that put distance between you two that may make him feel you aren’t interested.

    Make up reasons to touch him — in a fun, playful and clean manner… ask him to thumb wrestle or tell him you want to read his palm. Voluntarily touching a man is definitely a signal that you are interested!

    Offer to pay your share. Be gracious if he wants to pay for you.

    Finally, at the end of the date, just be bold and tell him you had a good time and would enjoy seeing him again. Doing any or all of the those things will be no guarantee that the guy will want to see you again if he’s “not into you.” However, you can at least be certain that he knows that you were interested in him!

    Also, as another poster suggested, it can be really illuminating to ask a guy what he thought about you on a date. I’ve done this myself and a number of the guys told me they just didn’t think I was interested in them. Like you — I laughed and smiled and had a good time so I was actually shocked that they felt I wasn’t interested. That’s how I know from personal experience that laughing and smiling and having a good time are not enough of a signal for some men. Given that you are so attractive, a guy may need even more reassurance that you like him. So, just help him out a little more!

    Good luck!

26. Evan Marc Katz 26

    Hey Eda,

    If you keep giving great advice like this, no one’s gonna need a dating coach! Glad to see you’re implementing these solutions in your life.

    Hope all’s well.

    Evan

27. Eda 27

    Oh, Evan,

    We will always need you

    By the way, your video clip is awesome! I hope that was just the first of many more to come.

28. sara 28

    I’m thrilled to hear about a hot young girl having a problem dating. Yeah, that might make me sound bad, but I’m happy to hear it because it makes me feel better. Honestly, 7-9 girls have the same problems as “10s” with wondering if he’s into us or just using us for sex…albeit with smaller numbers of guys chasing us. Guys are guys…so Ashley is going to have to keep relying on her judgements just as the rest of us women do.

    As to what Eda said, I agree. Ashley does need to flirt appropriately. Touching him (shoulder, arm, knee) a few times on the date is a great, easy and appropriate way to convey interest. And yes, tell the guy that you think he’s cute and smart and you’d like to see him again. Guys love having their ego stroked. Don’t let him do all the work on the date. Pull your weight, be interested in him!

    As to the issue of settling down….that is a big problem if you ask me unless you are dating guys in their 30s/40s. Guys in there 20s generally don’t want to settle down….even with a 10. So Ashley should modify her game plan if she is husband hunting in the late 20 something age group otherwise she will wind up routinely disappointed.

29. Kristina 29

    Oh, please. Evan, I normally agree with what you say, but you were way off target on this one. I’m attractive, my sisters are attractive and I know a number of attractive women- ranging from cute to drop dead gorgeous. If these woman are single it’s for one of two reasons- either they want to be single or they are doing something that is causing them to be single.

30. Zann 30

    I’m glad Ashley had the guts to write this, because it’s hard to wonder out loud if you’re being judged by your looks, because it sounds so … arrogant. Or pathetic — “yea, being gorgeous is such a drag.” But she’s telling the truth, and I sure don’t have any answers, but one thing that hasn’t been mentioned is that beautiful women were more than likely beautiful girls when they were young. And if you’re a “pretty girl,” you learn very early on that your looks are what gets the attention, makes you stand out from the rest, and unfortunately, what gives you value. No matter that you are also a genuinely good-hearted kid, who is kind and smart, a good athlete or teamplayer, or whatever other qualities you possess besides your physical beauty. You become an object for others to admire. How many times have you heard adults say, “Oh, she’s such a pretty girl. She’ll have to fight the men off when she gets older.” Then, when you’re older and actually are fighting off men and yet can’t find anyone to love you for you, you wonder what’s wrong with you. You were raised to believe that your looks were enough to carry the day. So you start wondering if maybe you ARE boring, or needy, or neurotic, have bad breath, etc. Sure, there are beautiful people who are shallow, boring or mean, just like there are less-than-beautiful people who are that way. And yes, looks are important & but only to a point, because if you haven’t also developed your own personality, character, sense of humor & convictions (because you weren’t encouraged to….. you learned your looks would be enough), it’s baffling as an adult to learn that looks are, in fact, not enough. People — particularly us women — assume that attractive women have it easy and are never lonely, just like we tend to assume that naturally thin women are happy, or they SHOULD be. Here’s what you hear: “Look at that waist. I hate her.” Or “Give me a break — could her teeth BE more perfect? God, I hate her.” I’m small and fairly attractive, so men have always assumed I’m cute, fun, harmless, and cuddly. And I am some of those things, some of the time, but when I’m just getting to know a guy and I open my mouth and say something like, “Hmm, I don’t agree with that,” men act like they’ve been betrayed, tricked, deceived. How dare I have a brain, an opinion? Well dang, I guess I’m just faux cute. My point is that people might be more aware of the comments and assumptions they make, especially around young girls, complimenting them on their prettiness as opposed to, for example, their great smile or radiant personality or kindness to their friends. Ashley, I doubt you’re boring or a bitch. Dating is just hard for everyone, and finding a connection takes work and patience, but it’s still worth examining the things that have been suggested above and see if they help. Best of luck.

31. Janice 31

    Evan, and bloggers – this one hit home. At 50, single and very attractive, I have dated those who indeed are only after the thrill of dating a “10″ – they only get one date – years of experience have helped me to see thru them. But, met someone a couple of months ago – he tells me how beautiful and smart I am, and fills my ego. Yes, I am insecure – never felt appreciated for more than just beauty – but I hide that insecurity very well. I can’t read him – goes from hot to cold – if I don’t respond to his voicemails, etc in a timely manner, his insecurities shine bright – thinking I am dating around, etc – I’m not. I don’t want to be with anyone but him right now, and have told him that. If I do timely respond, he acts like he has me wrapped around his little finger, and I don’t hear from him for a week or more. What’s up with this? Men I’ve dated have either been smothering or so aloof they can’t be ‘found’ … does this type of behavior have anything to do with my being attractive, and maybe his thinking every man out there secretly wants me, or that I want every man out there to prove I can have any man I want (which, I truly do not believe)… can someone please help me understand?? Trust me, natural beauty is a curse, not a blessing.

32. m 32

    “Then I’m over her house for one of the first times and I ask where her recyclables are. I don’t recycle. Just throw it in the trash. Done.”

    Gosh darn, Markus.

    No suggestions? No education? No patience?

    You trashed the relationship because she wouldn’t recycle one time.

    If a woman wrote in, “I stopped dating him because I was over at his house and he wouldn’t recycle once,” you’d be ALL OVER HER about how inflexible and rigid and harsh and unbending and unworthy of a decent guy she was.

    And you men accuse us women of being rigid.

    More directly OT, I hope the guys Ashley is dating aren’t grilling her on the first date on her recycling habits. Just because a beautiful woman might have one flaw, you all (figuratively) beat on her, pull her letter apart, and take her to task because of your own terrors of rejection — and then you tell us we have to be flexible and put up with ALL your BS.

    Hardly a balanced way of relating, I’d say.

    (And E, man – the little dig about “pretty girls having different problems than fat girls”? Gee, I hope Kate Dillon and Megan Garcia – and Whitney from the latest ANTM season, for that matter – aren’t telling their friends not to read you anymore.)

    I’ll let one of the other ladies deal with the guy (Mark?) who said, “Yeah, Ashley, we run away from you because you’re aloof.”

    She didn’t say she was aloof. She said she appeared aloof because she was shy. Not only did you misread her and give her no credit for attempting to be nice, you attempted to blame your own fears of rejection on her.

    Geeeeez.

33. Andrea 33

    Well said, Zann.
    I’m now wishing for an “edit” or “delete” button because I’m uncomfortable with the personal anecdotes that I posted.

34. Shawna 34

    Steve: Picard — definitely Picard.

35. Selena 35

    m-
    I found Marcus’ little rant about recycling amusing.
    “If I think you’re not a good person I won’t be able to stand being around you.” Feels that strong about not recycling? Wow. Gotta wonder what some of the other dealbreakers are.

36. Steve 36

    
    Kristina May 22nd 2008 at 12:55 pm 29
    I’m attractive, my sisters are attractive and I know a number of attractive women- ranging from cute to drop dead gorgeous
    
    Kristinia. Please get in touch, ROFL

37. Steve 37

    [i]Shawna May 23rd 2008 at 09:19 am 34
    Steve: Picard definitely Picard. [/i]

    I only date women who are Kirk fans. Oh well, maybe we can still be friends

38. hunter 38

    to evan,

    Single, small waist, large breasted, blond, 40 something in L.A?…they are very, particular about the public place they go to…..if they get out at all….I can see why…LOL!..

39. Brian 39

    When I first started dating, I found two types of pretty girls–the first added intense attention to their hair, makup and clothes to their considerable beauty. The others were great looking but didn’t obviously obsess over their presentation.

    Personally I found the ones who spent much time on their appearance less interesting since they had less time to spend developing themselves and using surface presentation as a major part of presenting themselves was ultimately not that interesting. Having to regularly fight my way through the men who were interested in the look was more work than it was worth.

    The genuinely good/great looking were a different story. I found many had a hard time finding quality dates like the rest of us. Often tired of being “hit on” by guys looking for a ‘score’, being thoughtful and sincere was well received, though it often took longer to get their confidence.

    Ultimately, substance and compatibility always play well. Good looks and sex only get you so far in a relationship. In the end, it is just the two of you together. Being able to genuinely connect and having something interesting to talk about can carry you a lifetime.

40. Markus 40

    m,

    I stayed in the relationship for a bit after that and more red flags popped up anyway. If it was something that could’ve been easily remedied…fine. But I’m 39 and she was 41. It’s not like no one knows how or why to recycle. I’m not a training camp.

    Selena,

    I’m very concerned about the environment and am looking for some level of concern about same. Recycling is EASY. If she can’t put a can in a different bucket how am I going to get her to buy recycled products that typically cost more?

41. D 41

    Just my experience, I went out with this really HB for lunch. During the meal, at least 3 or 4 times I found she was checking out the guys who were walking in and out. It was a major turn off and I never took her out again even though she was interested in me.
    I would never do something like that even with a woman I had no interest in.

42. Selena 42

    Marcus,
    “If she can’t put a can in a different bucket how am I going to get her to buy recycled products that typically cost more?”

    Sounds like she wasn’t the type of woman who wanted a man ‘to get her to do things’. Good for you for bailing out before wasting anyone’s time.

43. Steve 43

    
    Markus wrote:
    If she can’t put a can in a different bucket how am I going to get her to buy recycled products that typically cost more?
    

    If you she isn’t interested enough in your values to put a can in a different bucket you can only imagine how difficult things will be on major issues.

44. hunter 44

    to Brian,

    Men in their prime, do they really want to genuinely connect and have something interesting to talk about that will carry them a lifetime?

45. hunter 45

    I agree with Kristina, attractive women find partners, as soon as they rid themselves of what some women call the “Cinderella Complex”….

46. ocdgirl2000 46

    I had to respond to this. My response will be educational and will give you some insights into your future as a “pretty woman”. I was once, many, many years ago, considered pretty. I am now 54 years old, have a few grays, raised two children to adulthood who are now as old, if not older, than most of you here.
    Your looks will not last forever. You need to think “as if” you no longer had those looks, and consider the men in your lives as lifelong companions who will accept you when you are pregnant and not so pretty over the toilet puking, when you are post baby with a wrinkled tummy and a wide behind, and when you pass through menopause with gray hair and saggy everything.
    Will he still be there for you? Or will he be still eye-ing women who are young and pretty and asking for their phone numbers? Will he be looking in the mirror at his own recessed hairline, or will he be getting hair transplants and face lifts so that he can find yet another young thing on the side?
    Will he be a good father, or one who never has time for his children because he is too self obsessed? Will he be so busy working that he doesn’t remember your name? Take a look at this person who you are dating with an eye towards your future and eliminate the superficial stuff, you don’t have all the time in the world to spend on playing around with time wasters. You know inherently who they are, you have the judgment in you whether you want to admit to it or not. If you don’t want to be a committed person in a relationship, then you can have all the fun you want with men who only want to date pretty women, and you can focus on your career and being an independent single woman for the rest of your life.
    There is nothing wrong with that. No one says you have to be married or be in a relationship, or even DATE if you don’t feel like it.
    I’ve been divorced for 21 years, been there, done that, had several relationships, and now, it’s a peaceful place where I don’t have to deal with the advances of men who only want pretty women. It’s easy now! If a man was interested in me now, he would probably be looking to hook up with a woman who could take care of him, and being a Nurse, I don’t want to have that happen!LOL!

47. hunter 47

    to ocdgirl2000

    I have heard women say what you just said. But, there has to be a fun way of dealing with this part of life.

48. hunter 48

    To D,

    Women have a sophisticated defense system, she may have had other reasons for checking out men.

49. ocdgirl2000 49

    Notably, some of us have chosen to remain single simply because we are narcissists ourselves. We tend to start our sentences with the words “I” “Me” and “my”, these words are used in just about every sentence of the original poster. This will certainly be the type of woman who will attract men who want that and most likely they will be similar types to herself, so she shouldn’t be surprised at who she attracts. The point is, you have to know yourself. Then you can adjust your dating preferences and goals for relationships based on that knowledge. Too bad we learn so late in life…

50. Sara 50

    I’m so sad for Ashley. Who would have ever thought?

51. Heidi 51

    Yay Evan! I like your stance. Being the pretty girl isn’t the easiest job in the world though some may like to think so! AND hearing a man oppenly acknowledge that fact is just amazing. You should forward a copy of this to the entire male population (and female too) so that perhaps finally we too can be understood.

52. Brian 52

    To Hunter,
    I am not sure what you mean by “in my prime” but I look for someone who has something to say and good skill in the art of conversation. People would spontaneously tell me what a beauty she was, even now when we are in our 50s. The othe ingredient is the mutual love and respect that binds us together.

    Conversation? There was a time we went off to europe and spent a month touring in a small car with no one but each other to talk to in countries where we didn’t speak the language. While we spent ample time experiencing the romantic possibilities of places like a tiny hotel in a 13th century french castle, ultimately, it was the conversation that carried us through the day.

    Of course, great conversation also implies shared core values. I don’t long enjoy talking to a person who is dishonest or not trustworthy. A willingness to openly talk about themselves. and ultimately a willings to be emotionally engaged. make long term good conversation possible.

    Attractiveness is just that. After you have gotten each other’s attention, what you do afterward determines whether you progress beyond dating.

    Brian

53. Steve 53

    Eda;
    Post #25. Though I am not a pretty woman ( and couldn’t be one even with drugs, a chain saw, and a bucket of paint ) I found your advice fascinating.

    People in general, are not likely to give feedback, particularly in dating related situations. No surprise there, it is usually a thankless job, even when solicited. You can expect hurt feelings, arguments and/or an awkward situation.

    I think your advice may work because the dynamics change. You basically have a good looking woman doing something that most men welcome: paying more attention to them by asking them for their opinion.

    Not useful to most of us, but for those helping good looking women friends with dating problems your advice is valuable enough to file away.

54. Steve 54

    Hunter, Brian; About post #52. I concur.

    I am in my “prime”. I look decent, am fairly well rounded on the inside and I have a decent financial situation. I would still like to have sex with many more women, whether or not they are relationship material.

    It might be a sign of being a little bit on the lonely side these days, but I see a good conversation with someone I connect with as valuable as a wild night of mind blowing sex after a pick up.

    There is just something about finding a kindred spirit that is life affirming, complex and interesting.

    Then there is always mind blowing sex afterwards

55. hunter 55

    To Steve,

    Stay on the internet, I have been told there is pick up artist information, if you keep looking.

56. hunter 56

    I always wondered why the really pretty women don’t participate in beauty pagents, now I know.

57. heather 57

    Evan – I think you advise is “right on.”

    To those of you that think being pretty is so easy. The majority of my life I was shy, quiet, not attractive and blended into the wall. I finally found my confidence and I am now comfortable with my looks. I don’t think I am a 10 but do get a lot of comments about being gorgeous, sexy and attractive. With that said, I can totally relate to Ashley’s problem. I think all women with self esteem problems think the pretty girl has it easy but after changing into that girl, I see quite the opposite. I used to envy a girlfriend for her good looks but never understood why she never wore makeup and never dressed to show off her figure. Now I totally understand why. When you get tired of the same patterns of men (even women) not taking you seriously and just seeing your appearance, you just want to find someone that likes your inside and the outside is a perk. I spent my late 20s and most of my 30s married. Coming back on to the dating scene with my new found confidence about four years ago, I find it really hard to find the good guys (guys that meet my standards and want the same things in life as I do). Here’s what I’ve learned.

    Ashely, you are going to have to weed out those that take you for only your looks. If you are on-line dating, try to get to know someone before you meet and make sure you just don’t accept a date because he asks you. If you are okay with not accepting every date (it’s not your social life) make sure there is something in it for you and what you want. If you don’t accept every date, you have to be willing to be alone. I find that I waste my time and his if I just go out because I get asked. Also, most guys under 40 don’t want a serious (get married) relationship. Actually I am finding that even those that have been married don’t want to marry again.

    And a few comments:
    Kristina post 29 wrote: “If these woman are single it’s for one of two reasons- either they want to be single or they are doing something that is causing them to be single.” – Get off your high horse! It really isn’t that simple, everyone is unique and has a unique situations.

    Nikita post 9 wrote: “So when you see that beautiful woman walking down the street, don’t just envy her, she may be more insecure than you expect and that aloof exterior only a front to ward off unwanted advances. Spare a thought, give her a smile and start a sincere conversation with her. You never know that she might say yes.” – I second these statements and it goes for women of any age or anyone in fact!! We are all human!

58. hunter 58

    To heather,

    How true!….Some women don’t dress to enhance their figure. I remember dating a woman, who, at first sight, seemed to be, in the “plain, average” looks category. Until, we took our clothes off did I see her sexy figure. hhhhmmmhh…EEGGAAADDS!..

59. Dr. Tartt 59

    Well said Evan! I wonder if we have a case of self-fulfilling prophecy going on? I wonder how long she really expects to maintain a man’s attention. You attract what you expect.

    Dr. Tartt
    http://www.drtartt.com

60. Rachel 60

    Hey Ashley, HAVE FUN and stop worrying so much about “settling down.” That’s enough to make any guy cut and run, and they do pick these things up. Whatever is meant to happen will happen. Making that leap from dating to commitment has a lot to do with “right place, right time,” and you can’t control that. So what if these particular guys didn’t work out? Go out and do something you enjoy, and get to know the guys who are taking you out — maybe they feel like you’re not giving them a chance. You don’t have to give up your morals or standards, or anything like that, but I think you owe it to yourself to have a good time. You don’t want to look back in 5-15 years and slap yourself.

61. Mike 61

    I feel that many attractive women act or believe that with their good looks comes a sense of entitlement. As in “Since I’m attractive, I only want to date hot, tall guys who drive nice cars” And that is fine; because they can get those kinds of men to date. But since really hot men are more scarce than really hot women, the men who these women attract tend to have lots of choices and are likely to be players. Attractive women, need to examine the types of guys they are dating — My feeling is that after a few mis-steps, if the same bad thing keeps happening, then you have to wonder if it’s the fault of the chooser (i.e. the hot girl), not the choosee (i.e. the men she dates).

62. hunter 62

    to Mike,

    I have heard therapist say, “a single womans downfall, when she selects men with her eyes.”

63. vino 63

    Mike’s #61…

    “I feel that many attractive women act or believe that with their good looks comes a sense of entitlement. ”

    So do many non-attractive ones too.

    Ignore them. You do yourself a favor.

64. Adam 64

    And people assume the pretty girls have it easy… well in some ways they do

65. Mike 65

    I had a debate the other day with my friends (a guy and his girlfriend). I stated that “in our looks-based society, there is no reason why an an attractive woman can’t find a boyfriend. If she can’t, then she is not trying hard enough.” By “not trying hard enough,” I meant that she’s either not putting herself out there, or that she is not spending enough effort in filtering out the wrong types of guys. My guy friend agreed with me, but his attractive girlfriend completely disagreed. Your thoughts?

66. hunter 66

    To Mike,

    Most women could marry this instant, if they dropped all their requirements……..Attractive women can’t go to the grocery store without being approached by a man, almost always the wrong one,(so they say)……. these women don’t need to put themselves out there…..they are constantly getting hit on.

    You bring up a good point, attractive women do get tired of dealing with all those personalities(get tired of filtering out guys)…but this usually doesn’t happen ’till they turn 40,(and lose their hormones) or if they get hurt/abused.

67. hunter 67

    to Adam,

    #64, Your post brought to mind an old USO show with Bob Hope and Raquel Welch. Bob said that when he invited Raquel to come on the show, she asked him, “what do I have to do?” Bob replied, “You don’t have to do anything, just stand there, most men know what to do.”

68. starthrower68 68

    So the beautiful have it just as tough as the not-so-beautiful. I’m sure that the not-so-beautiful would be willing to trade one set of problems in for the other, if only for a little while.

69. hunter 69

    to post #68

    LOL!…but only if life were that simple and easy going…a womans mind does not operate like a mans mind……

70. Francis 70

    Being strikingly attractive can be a problem on its own. People comment on your looks without having to bother with who you are at heart. A beautiful woman is something everyone wants to have even though they are sure that many have got it.

71. m 71

    “Most women could marry this instant, if they dropped all their requirements..’

    Hunter, really — what an attractive proposal for the woman.

    “I, Attractive Woman, take thee, Unattractive, Unproductive Blob with No Intelligence, Feeling for Family, or Charm …”

    Ugh.

    I know that’s what a lot of you seem to want; it’s one of the reasons why Apatow’s and Braff’s movies are so popular, it’s all wish fulfillment.

    But really …

    Ugh.

    Do any of you men see how inequitable that is? You want a woman to have everything to offer you, but you want to offer her nothing? Do you really think that’s the way things are supposed to be? Do you care at all??

72. hunter 72

    Post #71

    Ha!,…..how funny!….”unproductive blob”….I didn’t mean just grab a man from the “pile.”………… Single, very productive men, do exist, although, maybe, in a smaller pool, and mostly, clueless.

73. Karl R 73

    “When you get tired of the same patterns of men (even women) not taking you seriously and just seeing your appearance, you just want to find someone that likes your inside and the outside is a perk.”

    I have a question for Heather and the other attractive women who have voiced opinions on this subject:

    What would you think if a man was clearly interested in you, but he did not compliment your appearance?

    When I begin dating a woman, I tend to compliment her on other traits (intelligence, humor, skill as a dancer, ability to live in the present, etc.), but I tend not to compliment her on her appearance until I’ve known her for a while. The more attractive she is, the longer it will be before I compliment her appearance. (This isn’t something I consciously plan, but it’s a habit of mine that I’ve observed.)

    So if you’re interested in a man, and he’s clearly interested in you, would it bother you if he offers fewer compliments on your looks than the average man? Or would you be happier knowing that he clearly appreciates qualities other than just your looks?

74. m 74

    Hunter, if you’ll look carefully at the top of my post you’ll note that I quoted you back to yourself EXACTLY.

    “I didn’t mean just grab a man from the pile.
    can easily be construed as a reasonable conclusion drawn from the assertion
    Most women could marry this instant, if they dropped all their requirements.”

    The thing about communication is that, if you want to be perceived as effective at it, you have to be willing to take some responsibility for
    - what you said (the literal words, the tone of voice, and the connotations) AS WELL AS
    - what the other person heard.

    And if you don’t give a hang about what the other person hears you say (because I can hear you now – “I can’t be responsible if some woman reads things into what I said!”) — then you’ll understand if she thinks you don’t give a hang about communicating with her effectively.

    If you didn’t mean “drop ALL her requirements”, then don’t say that.

    And if that IS what you meant, then I’ll ask you again — do you honestly think it’s an equitable relationship if you want a woman to have everything to offer you (and be willing to do so) but you want to offer her nothing??

    Moving on:
    Single, very productive men, do exist, although, maybe, in a smaller pool, and mostly, clueless.”

    How is this relevant to women “dropping all their requirements”? What does cluelessness have to do with anything?

75. hunter 75

    to M, on post #74

    on, “drop all her requirements.” hhhmmmhh, relationships, won’t operate on precision. I said, “all” but in a general sense. Say, are you a military/correctional officer?…….or maybe in the legal field?……..how funny!…..

76. Agreeing 76

    I think it’s true that everyone has their fair share of hardships. I just don’t think that men only go for looks, which is not true of all guys but if they want a real partner, looks are only part of it. Instead, look for people you connect with in other ways. Show men how smart, talented and funny you are. Those are the types of things that men who are looking for a relationship, will ultimately factor in. There’s more advice about this sort of dilema on vdateonline.com. I’m always looking on their forum for advice and tips. There’s great advice about showing the inner you on there as well.

77. Dating Reviews 77

    A rather blunt post, but there is some truth to the advice. I agree that women should not become objects to men!

78. Beauty’s Woes « Beauty of the Year 78

    [...] often. Look here and here. And I think of Evan Marc Katz’s famous (at least to me) blog post. But still that doesn’t even applies because I don’t need a boyfriend. I have a [...]

79. Heather 79

    I am engaged now, but before that, there was a long list of guys who did exactly what you said (assumed I was dumb or intimidating, etc.). I’ve never heard it so perfectly put.

    Sometimes I say to my fiance, “I don’t know why you love me.” I do know why he loves me, it’s just that I can’t believe he really does. I don’t by any means think I’m the most gorgeous woman on the planet, but my fiance for some reason does. The difference is that he acts upon it in a much different way than his predecessors. Pretty girls often need to be treated in a more gentle way. Telling us we’re hot and you want to sleep with us won’t cut it.

80. Cheryle 80

    Found this site interesting.  I will be entering the on-line dating world soon.:-)  Never thought I would have to, but here I go.  I only had three boyfriends in my life and those relationships were very long term and serious.  Each resulted with a job relocation by their company.
    I have friends and relatives asking me why I have to go on-line to try to find another boy friend (my fiance was transferred out of state) as men stare at me when we are out.  That is the problem.  Men just stare. 
    Women stare.  It can be lonely in a way because people just stare.
    I really enjoyed this site and this topic because I am learning about what I will have to post on the dating web site.  I mean, I am understanding about what others may think when they see my image up.  I know now that I will need to word a profile that highlights what I do for a living (work with children), how I contribute to society (work with volunteer organizations for children and the elderly), about my passions that are about helping others — basically, I will not let my photo have more weight than my substance.:-)  Just one plain head-shot image will be used. 
    Anyway, thank you all for your words concerning this issue. 

81. Christie Hartman 81

    This is a great post that brings up an important issue, an issue I address in my books and with my clients. Beautiful women have it tougher than people think – they attract more men but they also attract a lot of douchebags and men looking for conquests and trophies. I encourage very attractive women to be on the lookout for this and not rely on their looks because, ultimately, men want to a woman they love and connect with, not a trophy.

82. Christina 82

    this is difficult pretty girls are always wanted by bad guy so you must have ability to differentiate between good boy and bad boy

83. Shelly 83

    Wow, I just found my new favourite blog!

84. Flora 84

    Good Evening Everyone,
    Thank you all for your lovely and even controversial posts.  The more we communicate, the more we learn, and the more compassion we can have.
    I am pretty.  I am.  Even I know it.  And at various points I have Hated going to the grocery because someone was going to stare or follow me down an aisle.  It is the pressure that I find so disconcerting – I have felt that I just wanted to hide rather than to be objectified.
    Finding myself single in the middle of nowhere was very lonely.  I relocated and joined a few of the online dating sites and I attract men from 27 to 60 something and find at least 3 – 4 emails a day from new suitors.  Yes, there are plenty of fish – and they all want to take a swim in my tank!  But who will be there to clean it and feed me when they’re done gawking at how exotic I am?  I tell my girlfriends, “Can’t talk now – gotta go feed the fish!”
    And yes, I joke.  But I want to be Seen for who I am – like other posters have said – not what I am.  And I am new at this and do not have a good sense yet of who wants me and who wants the pretty.  It feels bad to be standing right in front of someone and to feel invisible.  Really, really bad.  In this way, I am insecure.  I don’t know how to discern one from the next yet.  Does anyone have a good litmus test or a polite question worked out to get the information you need?
    Karl R – Thank you for being so considerate.  I will say that while some men don’t find me as attractive as others (just as a matter of preference) it is still very nice to receive a compliment to know that you think we’re pretty.  However, if you were to compliment me on the person that I am and my unique qualities you would be my hero!
    For Janice and OCDGirl – we should be friends!  We could wear awful, baggy clothes, no make-up, practice up on bad hair and go to dance clubs!  We could laugh, dance for fun and not give a flip!
    Best to all ~
    Flora

85. Karl R 85

    Flora said: (#84)
    “And I am new at this and do not have a good sense yet of who wants me and who wants the pretty.”
    “Does anyone have a good litmus test or a polite question worked out to get the information you need?”

    This will come across as a completely geeky suggestion, but have you considered meeting people through an online game where nobody knows what anybody looks like? (World of Warcraft, Second Life, Everquest, City of Heroes, Eve Online, etc.)

    I know that a few celebrities play these games in order to socialize with people in a setting where they won’t be treated as special. They’ll just be treated as another one one of the guys (or girls).

    You will get some people who will still treat you like you’re pretty if your electronic representation of yourself is female and attractive, but most of the mature individuals will treat you according to how you interact with them and the rest of the world. (Not just socially. You’ll earn respect for playing the game competently, for example.)

    While a few people have met their significant others through online games, I wouldn’t expect that. What you really want to learn from this is how you like to be treated by others … when your looks aren’t part of the decision making process.

    That suggestion might not appeal to you. That’s fine. I did want to give one example of how you could get to know a group of people very well without having them know what you looked like.

86. Joe 86

    Unless you do something basically blind like Karl’s suggestion, there’s no way to know whether someone likes you for who you are, rather than what you are, without letting them actually get to know who you are.

87. Mora 87

    Most men don’t really bother with the pretty girls because there is an assumption that they already belong to that small group of players/pick-up-artists who bag beauty after beauty every single weekend.
    Sadly, those same players also dip into the pool of ‘average’ women which leaves most men marrying a girl who has been sleeping with players her whole life while he sat by the sidelines.
    Women really should try to date their equals, rather than all of them reaching for the top of the crop.

88. Lisa 88

    Evan,

    Thank you thank you thank you!!!! I have never had anyone verbalize exactly what I feel until just now!  Objectified is exactly the feeling and sifting through the sincere unthreatened men vs the slime balls is a full time job if you let it.  Just like anything else genetically, I did not choose how I look, it just is.  Also, the worst feeling is ending a relationship, as I just did, not knowing if the guy is really just threatened.  I am a loyal, good, funny and good person, who happens to be attractive as well.  Why do people think those traits have to be contradictory?  I agree with the comment that this is the best post yet!

89. Lisa 89

    Another thing on that!  I cannot stand people who think that you should just ‘walk it off,’ when rejected or being the center of attention just for your looks, as if that is the price you pay.  I used to say that celebraties should get used to the papparazzi because they are in the public eye but they still have rights to their lives and to privacy. 
    I have had women try to sabotage my means of earning a living because they felt intimidated by my presense.  When I confront them or try to defend myself, I get the “poor me” sarcasm and it beyond hurts.  Thanks so much Evan for putting to words exactly what I’ve experienced my whole life.

90. Karl R 90

    Lisa said: (#89)
    “I cannot stand people who think that you should just ‘walk it off,’ when rejected”

    As an active dater, what other option do I have when I’m rejected?

    I could continue to pursue the person who isn’t interested in me. (I’m sure you hate it when the men you’re not interested in do that.)

    I could swear off dating in order to avoid further rejection, which would be counterproductive to my long-term relationship goals.

    I could wallow in depression for days (or weeks), which probably wouldn’t be healthy for me.

    I could go to my friends for sympathy, but they’d probably get tired about hearing me complain about being rejected. As a guy who was an active dater, I was getting rejected a few times per month.

    The only sane and sensible response I can think of is for me to shrug off the rejection and find someone else that I’m interested in.

    I’m assuming you can’t stand that advice because you believe it’s bad advice. Can you suggest a better course of action that people should pursue when they’re rejected?

91. Evan Marc Katz 91

    @Karl – Dude, I should pay you to be my surrogate. Thanks for reinforcing the logical point of view when I’m not around.

92. Goldie 92

    @ Karl #90 – I’ve got a question. While we’re on the subject, can you (or any of the other men on here, as a matter of fact) tell me how/in which way/how soon do you prefer to be rejected? I want to let people down with minimal pain, so we could be friends and/or business connections afterwards. So far, I’ve failed miserably. Over three months with one person, I gradually went from “eh, I didn’t really like it when he said that, but that’s a minor issue, the guy and I have a lot in common, I should give him another chance” – to “this man is so wrong for me and I so want this to end – but he’s got all those things planned and it would really hurt him if I ended it now – let’s give it another few weeks and then maybe it’ll end on its own”.
     
    So it got to the point where he asks me “So, are we exclusive?” and I look at him and realize there’s no way in hell I want to be this dude’s girlfriend.
     
    So I start hemming and hawing. Which in turn made him really mad, because apparently he hadn’t been expecting any answer other than “yes”. Chewed me out for fifteen minutes, went home and deleted me from his Facebook immediately And I’d really hoped we could have some business connection going on. We share the same hobby and could be of value to each other in that regard.
     
    The only thing I can think of is that I blew this one. Apparently, somehow by being polite and nice, I led him to believe I was madly in love with him, when in fact I was frantically looking for an exit. What can I do differently next time?
     
    As for rejection, IMO it is a blessing in disguise. It means you wouldn’t have been happy with the person, and, rather than wasting your time, they let you go, thus allowing you to pursue better opportunities – be it your work, hobbies, friends, seeing other people, or all of the above. On the subject of rejection, I really liked the “Just Got Dumped” post on this blog. Of course you shouldn’t “walk off” after a rejection. You should skip happily off, thanking the other person that it happened now and not twenty years into your marriage I understand it’s hard to do when emotions get in the way, but logically, rejection is absolutely a good thing.

93. Goldie 93

    *rather than waste your time*. I manage to sneak at least one grammar error in each one of my comments. Oops.

94. Karl R 94

    Goldie asked: (#92)
    “can you (or any of the other men on here, as a matter of fact) tell me how/in which way/how soon do you prefer to be rejected?”

    How soon:
    As soon as you know that you don’t want the relationship, you should let the other person know. The earlier the relationship ends, the less painful it will be. The longer you wait, the more invested the other person becomes in the relationship.

    In which way:
    That depends upon where things are in the relationship. If you’ve only been out once (or not at all), a polite “No thank you,” when he asks you out is sufficient.

    If you’ve been dating longer, a face-to-face breakup may be the most appropriate way. It’s best to be someplace reasonably private while you’re breaking up, and someplace where you can leave after you’re done breaking up. (The other person’s home is one option if you’re sufficiently serious.)

    Be clear and decisive. For example, don’t say, “We should stop seeing each other for now,” unless you think you may start dating him again later. Instead say, “We should stop seeing each other.”

    Make it about you, not the other person. Some examples:
    “I want lots of kids, and you don’t want any.”
    “We’re at different stages in life, and I’m not comfortable with that difference.”
    “I just don’t feel that there’s the kind of chemistry between us that I’m looking for.”

    Be brief. The person doesn’t need to know every reason that you’re breaking up. One reason is sufficient.

    The other person may still get angry/upset. You’re not there for a fight. If they get angry, that’s your cue to leave.

    If you have any reason to believe that the other person might respond to the breakup with violence, take precautions to protect yourself. You can breakup in a semi-public place (with lots of bystanders who can’t overhear your conversation) or you can breakup by phone.

    Goldie said: (#92)
    “I understand it’s hard to do when emotions get in the way, but logically, rejection is absolutely a good thing.”

    It’s a lot easier if you don’t think of it as “rejection.” I think of it as, “She’s not interested in me,” or “I’m not the type of guy she’s looking for.”

    There are a lot of wonderful women that I’m not interested in for one reason or another. Therefore, it’s not a big deal if some wonderful woman isn’t interested in me for one reason or another.

95. Goldie 95

    Thanks, Karl!
     
    As soon as you know that you don’t want the relationship, you should let the other person know.

     
    Ah, but my problem is that it takes me forever to find out. I’m always like, “This must be all in my head, I must be overreacting, it’s not that bad”… How do you think I stayed married for 18 years? Guess this takes practice. I’ve definitely been analyzing what went wrong in my particular case, and how I could’ve caught it earlier.
    
    
    It’s a lot easier if you don’t think of it as “rejection.” I think of it as, “She’s not interested in me,” or “I’m not the type of guy she’s looking for.”
     
    Absolutely agree. Or, as I think of it, “if we get together, none of us are going to have a good time”. If the guy thinks we’re not a good fit, then we’re not a good fit, so, moving on is in my own best interests

96. Lynn 96

    There seems to be a lack of chemistry with the men she is attracting.  She says she attracts many men, but I don’t remember if she described them well. Is there a particular *type* of guy she’s attracting? If so, she can avoid that type in the future (the no-chemistry type), and date someone the opposite of that. It worked for me. I’m  pretty average looking. I always tried to date quiet, bookwormy guys, since I’m a quiet bookwormy girl, but no relationship ever sparked. So, I changed my tactic, and went out with a louder, physically more assertive guy, whose personality is almost the polar opposite of mine. When he told me his uncle manages a strip club and he has dated lots of strippers, my first impulse was to quit seeing him but I fought the impulse. Turns out, the chemistry of opposites is HOT HOT HOT. We did break up for a while and we both dated other people for a few months, but we’re back together now. He told me he just “couldn’t stop thinking about me”. He  talks marriage and longterm stuff a LOT. Fingers crossed this is the one.  It’s as close as I’ve ever gotten to finding the “One”.

97. Misha 97

    evan, thank you so much for writing this… ive never seen anyone describe my experiences so very well.  not sure if this post is very old but i am going to comment anyway.
    im a 28 yr old attractive woman, which i would never normally say for myself except that i get hit on constantly and chased like crazy.  i am also incredibly shy/reserved, which comes off as coldhearted and aloof.  im not really insecure, just feel harassed and bothered by all the attention.
    if i was a happy smiley girl i would get talked to nonstop, so i have developed this serious face that i use when out in public so that im nearly unapproachable.
    i still get dates and boyfriends but have exactly ashleys problem.  in fact i have a phd in science, which makes it HORRIBLE in trying to determine if someone is actually ‘listening to you’ or ‘looking at you.’  i feel i am never taken seriously.  i am very difficult to talk to because i assume any strange man who is talking to me just wants to hit on me.
    i am actually pretty lonely sometimes.  it is hard to have female friends because females are naturally competitive and i have no interest in that.  i do better with guy friends (and ignore the subtext of them being attracted to me).
    at this point i subconsciously choose relationships with men who do NOT compliment me, hold out on praise, and tease.  after a while in these types of relationships i feel undervalued and unsupported, craving someone who compliments me.  its a bad cycle.
    i realize this sounds so bratty but for a shy person, being pretty is a bit of a curse!

98. No Crap 98

    I know EXACTLY where Ashley is coming from.  And I agree with her.  I would absolutely NOT let my guard down unless/until a man showed that he was worthy of my trust.  If a man is so intent on having sex that he can’t wait until I’m ready, whether it’s date 1 or date 21, then I don’t want him.
     
    Basically, the way I read Evan’s advice is, if a man has looks and money, he gets what he wants.  If a woman has looks (and maybe money) she has to put herself on the line to be (potentially) used and abused because, well, men always get what they want, don’t they?

99. Karl R 99

    Misha said: (#97)
    “at this point i subconsciously choose relationships with men who do NOT compliment me, hold out on praise, and tease.”

    You just validated the tactics used by Pick-Up Artists to score with attractive women.

    Misha said: (#97)
    “after a while in these types of relationships i feel undervalued and unsupported, craving someone who compliments me.”

    At least it sounds like you dump them quickly, even if you don’t consciously recognize them for what they are.

    Misha said: (#97)
    “i have a phd in science, which makes it HORRIBLE in trying to determine if someone is actually ‘listening to you’ or ‘looking at you.’”

    That’s not an either/or situation. Men aren’t that bad at multitasking. They are looking at you. They may also be listening to you.

100. Cat 100

     #99- No Crap – Nowhere does Evan say that “men always get what they want” (I’m sure there are plenty of men in the comments who would disagree with that!) or that ANY woman – regardless of looks or finances – has to put up with being “used and abused”… His new book, Why He Disappeared, is all about how NOT to feel used and to empower yourself to get the love life you deserve…

     It sounds like you’ve been hurt before, NC, but that doesn’t mean ALL men are sexual deviants who don’t care about women’s feelings and only want one thing… And it doesn’t mean that some women don’t enjoy sex outside of a committed relationship. If you never let your guard down and treat a guy like he’s untrustworthy and constantly has something to prove before he gets the prize (sex,) then why would he stay?

101. Helen 101

     If you genuinely don’t want men to hit on you, such as in professional settings, don’t dress or act in a way that would be seen as a come-on. Dress conservatively, put your hair up, don’t cake on the makeup, don’t tilt your head and smile. (But ah, therein lies the rub, no? How many of us, deep inside, really don’t want to be attractive?)
      
     Misha #97, your situation is not all that uncommon. I’m marginally pretty at best (a 6) and married, yet get hit on constantly by virtue of being a woman in a male-dominated scientific field. What you’re doing is exactly right: don’t smile too much, be aloof. Don’t worry that aloofness turns people off. When it comes time for you to be promoted, they don’t base it on how much they like you or whether you let them come on to you; they base it on the quality of your work. Keep focused.
      
     Accept that if you’re beautiful or even marginally attractive, you will get hit on. Don’t take it personally and don’t get angry or resentful about it. That just hurts you, and does no one any good. Understand that it happens to many, many people, even plain Janes. You’re in good company.
      
     If you have lots of men after you, how can you tell whether it’s worth giving them a chance?  Look for evidence of kindness in the men who pursue you. One way is to observe how they treat other people, not just you (the beauty queen).  I’ve seen it over and over again: if a guy is nice to you but mean, dismissive, or rude to others, he is NOT worth getting into a relationship with, and will eventually treat you poorly too. So, look beyond yourself.  At the very worst, you will end up dating lots of nice guys who may or may not be compatible with you. Not such a bad fate!
      

102. Vicki 102

     While I won’t rate myself with a number (I find that SO offensive frankly), I have often been described by others as “pretty.” For me, the problem isn’t the men at all. It’s the other women. Many don’t want me anywhere near their boyfriend/husband and make sure I’m not included in their social events. Note to all women: I DON’T want your husband/boyfriend. PROMISE. Even women I considered “good” friends have said they don’t want to go “out” with me because it makes them feel ignored/unattractive when I get attention and they don’t.

     I often feel very shunned by women in general . . . hated even. Maybe this girl should look closely at her “supposed” friends. They are likely bashing her to any man who will listen (particularly the men they are interested in). I find it much easier to be friends with men – but then yes – the next problem is that they have very little interest in being “friends” per se. And the men you do date tend to have a problem with the male friends . . . So you end up feeling isolated, alone and without any true friends.

     To the poster - Take a long, hard look at the men who are willing to be a “friend” versus a “date.” That’s when you’ll hit the mother lode. I’d also take a long hard look at your female “friends” or social group. That could be where another major problem lies.

103. Denise 103

     #102 Vicki

     I often feel very shunned by women in general . . . hated even.

     I’m always suspect when women claim that other women hate them.  And the woman who is hated typically says all the other women think they are taking away their men.

     If it’s one or two other women, those could be those women’s issues.  If it’s ALL women the person is coming into contact with, then one has to look to themselves to determine what is going on.  Whether they are attracting insecure women to their lives, or they have some sort of insecurity going on where they are seeing things in a certain way, oversensitivity, behavior, etc.

     Women successfully survive by having a strong network of women friends, it’s in our DNA.  That’s if the woman has a man in her life or not, it’s very important.  We instinctively seek other women out and it defeminizes us when we are excluded.

104. Vicki 104

     #102 – Perhaps this was a strong overgeneralization on my part. But it IS what I have observed, over and over, particularly with regard to young and extremely attractive girls (which I pictured the poster to be). And I have seen this often enough (yes, even beyond high school and college) where it isn’t just a “fluke” nor can it be ascribed to a severe personality flaw on the part of said girl/woman. Not everyone, particularly in that age group, are the “strong network of women” that you describe.

     I stand by my suggestion that she be careful of the friends/men she socializes with . . . and seek out male/female friends (who are mature and secure) that are capable of being supportive and genuine friends in order to successfully survive. And yes, those people are out there too – and I hope that’s the kind of people she is surrounding herself with.

105. Goldie 105

     I understand what Vicki is talking about. Growing up, I had very few female friends. All the girls were just so mean and catty. And I wasn’t even pretty as a teenager! Then gradually, things got better as we all got older. I think it’s an age thing. For the younger girls that are insecure about their own looks and attractiveness, have no idea what they want in a partner, and are all chasing the top 5% hot guys, it might be natural to see all other girls as competition… cuz hey, they are A mature woman, on the other hand, has no competition. Simply because she knows what would work for her, and most likely it is not the one hot, wealthy eligible bachelor in her social circle… she has found her niche and the man she wants may not necessarily be the man everybody else wants. And anyway, she’s not going to sink as low as to fight someone else over a guy, especially since she knows nothing good will come out of it. She also knows that no one’s going to “steal” her husband or boyfriend, and that a husband or boyfriend that can be easily “stolen” by someone more attractive isn’t worth keeping in the first place. She is now in a position to really be a friend to other women.
      
     Like Vicki, for the longest time I got through life by having more male friends than female… I did not care if they fantasized about me on their free time, as long as we had each other’s companionship and support.
      
     I noticed a shift in the friendship dynamic after everyone got married and had kids. Suddenly being friends with other women became a LOT easier. Being around “geeky” girls helped as well

106. Barbara Nwosu 106

     I really try not to comment in forums but I am impressed.  Thank you for looking at it objectively.  The issue that has not been addressed is “mate guarding”.  This is critical.  When a man has to accept the fact that his woman is so highly desired by other males, he feels that he will be faced with staying on top of his “game” because just like the men who are constantly seeking to upgrade, she can also.  Men do not like this reality.
     The internet leveled the playing field for men to have more options or at least think that they do.  When a woman who is beautiful inside and out and knows it, she can have any man.  A boyfriend is just a date.  Don’t do permanent things with temporary people.
     A single 50 plus year old woman that has become more beautiful with time can have 20 year old men spellbound.  Focus on self without the restrictions of a single boy/man as an authority figure over you or arm candy.  Boyfriend’s really are not that special.

107. prettygirl 107

      im in the same situation…this is my life– i nkow what u mean.. i cant meet a guy– im gorgeous nice sweet—all i get are weird guys wantin sex off me …raerly 2nd dates—
      it has been a huge problem for me– im also a really cool nice sweet girl but just keep meeting guys who want ‘sex’…not a relationship. And i go on dates all the time too–it leads to nothing….its not you….its that there are far too many sick guys out there who only want one thing…dont listen to waht others say trust me

108. prettygirl 108

      its nothing she’s doing.. im a “TEN” by lame standards– im a model beautiful…etc….all i get aer men who want sex off me..it makes no sense….i’d be the perfect girlfriend…im monogamous loyal sweet kind compassionate– ive been single ALL MY LIFE….and the worst part is–for being amazing and unable to meet someone…you’ll then be criticized but its not you…..no guy will date me as a girlfriend..every guy uses me as a sex object, and im a virgin….it makes no sense…i cant meet a guy either….its nothing shes doing….its just the stupid guys…and bad luck….

109. Karl R 109

     prettygirl, (#107 & #108)
     If you have an online profile, is it written in the same manner that your posts are? If so, that could be part of the problem.

     My knee-jerk reaction to your writing style was to assume you were below-average intelligence. Upon closer examination, I noticed that all of the misspelled words were due to typos. Furthermore, if you had correctly capitalized and punctuated your post, the grammar would be almost correct.

     So you’re probably above-average intelligence, but a truly careless writer.

     Why this is relevant:
     I value women’s intelligence. If I read a profile written like your posts, I’d rule the woman out before I finished the first paragraph. If you want to attract a man who values your mind, you need to write like a woman who has one.

     In real life, people will evaluate your speach patterns instead of your writing style. Perhaps you speak better than you write. If not, you’re likely to encounter men who decide you’re less intelligent than you actually are, and who rule you out as a potential date because of it.

     This misperception works against you in another way as well. Predatory sleazebags flock to less intelligent women. They believe that less intelligent women are more likely to have sex with them.

     Example:
     I had a coworker who was below average intelligence. One afternoon she told me that another employee made a pass at her. I assumed she’d imagined it until I (privately) confirmed it with the other employee. He’d invited her to his cabin for the weekend so he could have extramarital sex with her. He didn’t even find her attractive. He just assumed she was easy because she was dumber than everyone else.

     There are sleazy jerks out there, and you will continue to meet some regardless of what you do. But there’s at least one way in which you can improve your odds of meeting higher quality men.

110. Bee 110

     I am basing my response on personal experience. I am also considered pretty (or so I am constantly told) and I also have this problem. But I also am very reserved and on guard constantly because of being bullied as a kid and having social anxiety. I have had several friends tell me upon first meeting me they thought I was a “bitch”. When they get to know me they discover differently. Sadly, I think a lot of men make assumptions about pretty women. They think we’re dumb, superficial, snobby, bitchy, etc. Which is hilarious because I often find that it’s the most attractive women who are the most insecure!

     I once posed this same question to a guy and was also told that, in general, men tend to be intimdated by pretty women. They assume that pretty women get hit on all the time, are already taken, etc. and are just too afraid of rejection to approach. I have also had guys I date confess that they worry I will “find someone better” and leave them.

     So I think it’s probably a combination of things. Most likely it’s a combo of men being intimidated by your looks and also possibly the signals/body language, etc. that you put out there. If you seem unavailable, men are going to assume you are.

111. Kurt 111

     Barbara Nwosu, only a woman would think what you wrote – “a single 50 plus year old woman that has become more beautiful with time can have 20 year old men spellbound.”
      
     Women do not become more beautiful with time unless they were fat when younger and lose a lot of weight or somehow get surgery to fix a facial disfigurement.  If a man thinks that a woman is beautiful, that is almost always because of her looks, which absolutely do fade over time.

112. Heather 112

     It really is true that pretty girls sometimes have a much harder time finding a relationship. I get asked by others (including men) all the time the same question, why is a girl like you still single. I really am not sure why. Most men I go out on dates with tell me how comfortable I make them feel and how easy I am to talk to. I am very outgoing and friendly. I have a good career (RN). I have one grown son. I’m 39 but look much younger thanks to good genes. I get flirted with and even asked out on dates. But it doesn’t ever go much further than that.

113. matey 113

     Thank you for writing this Evan, such a great article.

     I felt much the same was as Ashley when I was younger. Thank you for reminding me of one of the great positives of getting older, and putting on a few pounds  – I am no longer that girl. Of course the therapy helped get my self esteem where it should be too. 

     The other tough part of being attractive is sexual harrassment. I had men and women grab at me when I was younger, and can remember being scarily chased around two Italian cities. Once by two men who’d just made myself and a friend dinner, and another time by a group of about 10 of them. Plus the jealousy of other women can be very painful; while some people presume you have life on a plate and so treat you with contempt, or try to disadvantage you. I had a college professor do this to me.

     I have read that men complain beautiful women are always unstable – these are possibly the reasons why.    

114. matey 114

     P.S. To all those pretty girls out there: find other pretty girls to be firends with. It worked great for me, my best pals are all stunningly beautiful – they know the emptiness of the attention you get, so they’re not jealous. And they know the situations you’ll find yourself in. Myself and my friends were asked if we are a girl band the other week when we all wet out for a birthday lunch!  

115. Sarah 115

     “You may also be weeding out some decent guys. Although it’s unpopular to say, sex is rightfully important to men. A reasonable man with looks and money and life experience might very well say to himself, after five dates with nothing more than a kiss, “Screw this. I’m going to find a woman who matches my passion, who makes me feel attractive and sexy, who is excited about me.””

     What’s that old expression about buying the cow versus getting the milk for free?  Post-sexual-revolution, men are “rightfully” entitled to free milk?

     Thank God my experience has been that many men are respectful if a woman chooses to wait to have sex.  Sex is a big deal, after all; it can cause life or death.  Men who don’t respect that are slimeballs.  Kick them to the curb.

116. Karl R 116

     Sarah asked: (#115)
     “Post-sexual-revolution, men are ‘rightfully’ entitled to free milk?”

     You’re misunderstanding what Evan means.

     Let me give you an example that may sound more familiar to you:
     Before dating me, my fiancée dated a widower whom she’d known for years. Every three or four weeks he would ask her out, but he never tried to move things to the next level. He had plenty of reasons for not calling often: his business kept him busy; he lived two hours away; he was worried about what his (grown) children would think.

     At this point you’re probably thinking what I was: He just wasn’t that into her.

     He liked being with her. At least he liked it when he was already in town, and if he didn’t have anything better to do. But it was pretty obvious that she wasn’t a priority to him.

     If you’ve ever been in a relationship like that, how did that make you feel about yourself?

     Sarah said: (#115)
     “Thank God my experience has been that many men are respectful if a woman chooses to wait to have sex.”

     I respect that choice, but I don’t put much hope in it.

     There’s been a fairly normal speed for the progression of intimacy in my relationships. If a woman is moving substantially slower than that, it’s because she just wasn’t that into me. That’s even true for women who have deep-seated religious beliefs. If they’re into me, they’ll start bending their rules.

     Women might keep a respectful distance with their male friends, but they don’t keep a respectful distance with the men they want as their boyfriends.

     If a woman is maintaining that respectful distance, it’s rather easy to guess which category I fall into.

     Sarah,
     Since you’re human, I’ll assume you’ve bent (or broken) your own rules before. Did you bend the rules for men you just sort of liked, or for men whom you strongly desired?

     I respect a woman’s right to choose to wait. I also acknowledge that every woman who has wanted me has chosen not to wait very long.

117. miss overit 117

     Ive read what you have said and , considerd not normal for being pretty. Its offencive to a point as i am humble and have not lost my value system and have been stomped on by men my whole life, why , because i am over the facard of your hot so lets just have sex, after years of this eventualy hot woman get nasty what do people expect, its not our fault men think we are good looking, i see and always have seen my self as normal but now 32 i still cop the flack , milf , your 32 so your stable and lets just do booty calls, its not fun for us either, no one gets out this world un scared every one has to pick at some one or something and i dont think there are answers you just have to get by with who you are ,..

118. melissa92 118

      I have the same problem.. I know how you feel…it makes no sense…whether you’re pretty or not it’s just an epidemic going on with guys today…but yes it happens to pretty women a lot– you’re just an object…I too am a very beautiful woman and can’t get a boyfriend….no there is nothing a pretty girl ‘isn’t doing’…its odd and bizarre—it makes no sense to me and defies rationality- how can a very pretty girl have a hard time getting a boyfriend? ive experienced that many men…seem to not want to be with a pretty girl shockingly—ive been single 32 years of my life…the only thing ive met are very psychotic males who want to mentally torture me and nothing else (no not even want me for sex egads)…. or guys who want to use me for SEX and nothing else and i mean a one night stand and that’s it—most guys dont even want ongoing sex witha  pretty girl–its very weird….im really not suer what’s going on to be honest…ive also witnessed many men with grotesque or ugly/fat women….decent looking guys with women who are almost repulsive and they seem to very attracted to the ‘unattractive’ and not the ‘attractive’…thsee same males who are infatuated with a fat/homely mean female, are disgusted by me and shun me and give me ‘eww’ looks and are very mean to me….there are probably 50 varying factors as to why most males in this society seem to overlook ignore or not want to be with a pretty girl…a lot of guys also arent really looking for a commitment…and just want ‘sex’ too….

     many males these days have dead/non-existent egos and a pretty girl is a huge threat to their egos so they feel much better with a fat/unattractive female too…  they also feel unworthy of a pretty woman or uncomfortable around her so they do teh first thing that comes to mind– try to use her, ie get sex off her and bail and nothing else or they feel theyre not good enough for her…so they do again what comes naturally—try hard to get what they can get off her and leave… overall youre just living a really sh*tty time in society where ego driven insecure losers are walking around everywhere and any remote instance of ‘beauty’ terrifies them to such an extreme that they rush to monsterly females who are mean psycho or weird and feel much better around these women (again it shocks me)… so theyre scared of beauty/pretty and not scared of ‘scary’….not to put other women down but it confuses me why men aer so hostile towards me, rather than fawning….and they kiss up to unattractive women…they also feel less insecure abou tgetting rejected by a fat/ugly woman so they have no problem asking these women out—but if they insult and mistreat a pretty girl and she rejects them it’s such an ego kill they can’t even get their pathetic selves to do it—most men tehse days are weak, terrified retards and pussies and that is just the sad truth– they are scared of anything and everything…rejection, pretty women, this that…so they stick to what makes them feel ‘comfortable’…the only ‘confident’ males out there are scum and douchebags looking to get laid and that’s about it….also its not true that if youre pretty you get entitled treatment—there are many many jealous people out there and u dont get entitlement…you get abused or mistreated if youre pretty or bullied…it happens to many

119. melissa92 119

     I used to also have a friend…who was 48 years old–she was pretty but of course older—she could get any guy she wanted and had men literally fawning all over her–she ended up seriously dating a 33 year old guy who was pretty cute—that same 33 year old guy…used to treat me very oddly/badly…he’d give me dirty looks and act as if i was weird…i was 28 at the time and very very hot…my friend would even say to her other friends “i found someone who’s even more beautiful than me”! So its very confusing…why males…are not into young beautiful women and seem to be into anyone who is older, unattractive or anything…it almost seems that in order to get a male you have to have some kind of ‘flaw’ and if you don’t men will treat you with contempt and hatred—this has been my experience….a male who treated me horridly…and refused even sex with me and treated me solely as an ‘object’ for years–would say “you’re TOO beautiful”…this man…”never” had sex with me and got off on mentally terrorizing me…he called me a ‘sex goddess’ several times yet still wouldn’t have sex with me—shocking…as a beautiful woman ive experienced this too–males sexually rejecting me–or just wanting a ‘one time encounter’ with me which would be dominating, unpleasurable for me and that’s it…basically as a hot woman ive learned that males only want one thing form me—to use or dominate me–that’s it…to hurt degrade or reject me– or even cruelly torture me in various ways–mentally etc… though im pretty and sexually so appealing…men don’t want to pleasure me…they only want to hurt/degrade and torment me—though women aer of course cruel and equally hate me…and avoid me altogether—men too are jealous of you and want to do the same…its so strange having to experience this….you realize….you’re treated as an object, a freak, an alien…its almost as if you’re not human…b/c humans dont treat you normally or equal or even close– i get mistreated abused judged degraded, by almost everyone–male or female…and im so hated by men…i cant get a boyfriend, just random males wanting to treat me lower than i can describe– cruel horrid treatment….i too have come to a point of despising men…however…there’s no nice guy that has changed that– i despise men b/c they have ‘all’ been the same to me– cruel mean abusive wanting to hurt or ruin me and nothing else….its an odd reality and feels like some kind of parallel universe or twilight zone– it seems surreal…how can that guy want to be with ‘that’ weird woman and love her and have sex with her– then come across a beautiful nice goddess/angel and reject/shun/abuse mistreat her and walk off…so weird…

120. Still Looking 120

     Melissa92 @118, 119

     The two most attractive women I’ve gone out had personalities that were polar opposites.  #1 was sweet, fun, easy-going, very easy to talk with, etc.  #2 had a very thin veneer of the same but it didn’t take long before I started seeing signs of feelings of entitlement, superiority, and basically a spoiled princess mentality.

     I had no problem walking away, quickly, from #2.

     We know how you assess your physical attractiveness but how do you perceive your inner-beauty?  Have you ever asked a date for a no-holds-barred post-date critique or perhaps asked a friend for the same?

      

121. Anonymous 121

     Evan says “A reasonable man with looks and money and life experience might very well say to himself, after five dates with nothing more than a kiss, “Screw this. I’m going to find a woman who matches my passion, who makes me feel attractive and sexy, who is excited about me.”

     If a man is absolutely nuts about you (in a good way) and is serious, he will wait and not run off just because he didn’t get sex as soon as he would like. 

     As taboo as it is to say in today’s culture, I do feel there is truth to the old adage that men will cherish what they had to work hard for.   People will say it’s crazy, but their actions do the opposite of what they say. The same man that says he will never wait to have sex after the 4th date complies with his dream girl that sets the boundary.

122. cameron 122

     Yes, pity the pretty woman!  Especially if she’s shy!!!  Being a very pretty and shy woman was a terrible experience in my 20s.  I had men constantly hitting on me, but no one taking me seriously (literally, I was the “dumb blonde” in their eyes, despite the fact I was earning my doctorate in chemistry).
     As for advice offered by well-meaning commentators, you’re wrong about a lot of it.  First off, pretty women can’t always be friends with men.  They only want to date you!  I actually had quite a few self-proclaimed nice guys telling me they couldn’t handle just a friendship with me.  (And believe me, I wasn’t leading anyone on.)
     While, I didn’t have too many problems with women, a few of my close friends couldn’t understand why I wouldn’t hop into bed with any guy that showed me attention.  Sadly, they would have.  Their resentment was tempered by my prudishness, I guess.
     Oh, and it’s total nonsense to suggest older men (in their late 20s/30s) as a possible solution.  If anything, these more “mature” men treated me more like an object than guys my age.
     BUT, it does get better ladies!  Maybe this isn’t what you’d like to hear, and maybe it will be different for you, but getting older has its benefits. 
     I found that as I entered my 30s, even though I had fewer men approaching me, the ones I got were quality.  Once I became “expired goods” as far as douche bags were concerned, I began to meet much better men.  Don’t worry, you don’t have to turn into a hag.  I was still a hottie when I met my man at 33 and I couldn’t be happier!  
     Bottom line: be patient!

123. Mike 123

     @melissa92 #119

     “i too have come to a point of despising men…however…there’s no nice guy that has changed that– i despise men b/c they have ‘all’ been the same to me– cruel mean abusive wanting to hurt or ruin me and nothing else”

     i am sorry you have gone through this but i’m willing to bet dollars to donuts that if you were to have met me back then the following points would have occurred:

     1. i would not have treated you in the manner you say ‘all men’ have treated you and..
     2. you would never know that because you would have taken a pass on me.

     my exwife spent 4 years with a sociapath who tormented her mentally and cruelly, even openly displaying a pack of condoms in his luggage on a business trip that she was not going with him on. She spent another 4+ years with a man who was incapable of showing basic emotion and made her pay 50% of everything even when their income levels were a staggering 5 to 1 ratio disparity. Yet she ended it with me in less than 3 total years, 1 married, showing her nothing but love, commitment and support. I have no rational reasoning for this type of behavior except that some women are simply drawn to destructive behavior and poisonous relationships (both sexes are guilty of this, my sin was trying to be the white knight).

     IF you had gone out with someone like me and there was actual love there, I would have showed you a different world, unlike anything you’ve experienced. Sadly, most women won’t take a chance on me, because I’m an introvert and astonishingly do not go out of my way to be the center of attention or play the badboy that seems to be the bullwalk of attraction in the mating dance nowadays.

     I can almost guarantee you with certaintee you would not bother with a guy like me. You seem to be stuck in a destructive self fulfilling prophecy. That’s for you to resolve.

124. Babs 124

     I find this article scary, actually to say ‘tall, blonde, thin waist n big boobs’ is beauty is scary. That sounds like a doll to me. I think such definition of beauty is selective n very few would make it into the list, except off course if you blonde your self- this is narrow thinking. There are dark, shorn, not thin waist beautiful people out there. Beauty is, as one put it, a social construction. Reason am saying this is I get a lot oof favours from men, get treated nicely n am not blonde or tall or thin waisted. Its about how u feel, I admit my face maybe prettier, but its how u feel, how u dress, how u take care of ur inner n outerself that make you beautiful. Some cultures or people place beauty on virtues like kindness/humility n so on. This is not to say there are no pretty people, but that is not seen as the most important thing. If we accepted that we are spiritual n physical beings n bring our innersselves out there there mite be less objectification of women. But no, the media has us focused on our pimples, waists, buttocks n so on, n the inner is dying and not presented – what a lie. let us take care of our outter for it is good to so our health is important n it is good to look good, but our inner is more important. Let us also extend the definition of beauty to inner ond outter beauty. Let us extend so wide that in our 60′s n 70′s we won’t need the knife /plastic surgeries to be called beautiful. I am in my 20′s n I know that I have to embrace my beauty as I grow. We don’t wanna go thru the trauma that some ppl who have only known outter beauty experience. Let us declare ourselves beautiful n expect better treatment n favours, am experiencing that and sometimes I wonder how I really look cause I don’t fit in this definiton of beauty, but I am beautiful, not in my own special way (which is to say to myself only…lol) but in every way n to every one.

125. justme 125

     To Mike, post 123

     For every guy out there complaining that some woman overlooks him and goes for a hot guy, I think there is a girl in his life that he considers a great friend but he isn’t interested in her because he is overlooking her for the hot girl.    I too am an introvert.  I am not the center of attention, I don’t even like to be the center of attention.  But when a guy does notice me, he wonders where I’ve been hiding.  I’m not beautiful but I think I’m cute, I’m fit and I’m loving and nurturing.  Relationships mean a lot to me and those that I form in my life tend to life long. 

     It goes both ways, men always think women are overlooking them for a hot guy, women think men overlook them for the hot women. 

     I think this is why Evan’s advice to want the one who wants you is so powerful.  Why waste my time on the guy who isn’t interested in me?  I want to give my time to the guy who does think I’m beautiful and finds out that the best part of me is my heart.  

     Kris 

126. anna 126

     I learned the hard way I want a man to tell me when he thinks I’m pretty or attractive if he is interested in pursuing me. I have had it with men who act put out if I’m not interested in them or don’t want to have sex with them, yet they can’t even “court” me by telling me I’m attractive (and I am very much so). 

     There is nothing wrong with wanting to be treated like a desireable woman by the man who is pursuing you or seeking to date you. I’ve had enough of being pals with men. 

     At the same time, it would be so nice to date a man who doesn’t assume I’m not as smart as him. I am sick of men telling me after they get to know me that I am so much smarter than they thought. 

     But reading all the comments confirms for me what I have experienced too many times–most men DON’T want to believe a woman could be beautiful and smart. Therefore I’ve come to believe most men are deeply insecure–and I’m at an age where I realize many of them are delayed by dealing with mother issues (unconscious or not). They might screw a million women or resign themselves to a life of repressed hell with a controlling woman–or they just don’t know how to act like a gentleman who cares about a woman. But so many can’t fathom a woman is all that. Well she is. 

     And what so many of them also can’t fathom is that a woman (who is all that) would love to support the right man and give everything and grow in a lifelong mutually nurturing relationship full of great sex, trust and joy. 

     Comments here also confirm my experiences, which are that so -called good friends couldn’t have me around them after they got married–even though I was alone in total grief over losing my parents. The last thing I gave a shit about was their lame husbands, who were nice enough but nothing I would ever want. 

     So what it boils down to for me is this: are we really all so lame and insecure that we can’t see one another as human beings instead of objects or walking resumes? We love to think we’ve come so far–but most men and women are still like overgrown children still trying to learn how to adjust their breeches and act like adults.  

127. Greg 127

     @Anna

     Maybe men are turned off by your arrogance.  Even though a man may be very arrogant himself, its not likely that he likes a woman who thinks she is the best thing in the world (super beautiful, smart all that).  Men are not intimidated by beautiful or smart women.  We actually prefer that.  But there are other things that are more important than physical beauty and intelligence to men when it comes to choosing a mate.  I think you’re overestimating the power of your beauty and intelligence to attract men.  Many of the most beautiful women I know have the worst relationships.  Then again, despite their beauty I wouldn’t want to be with them long either.  They may be hot and smart, but they don’t make good girlfriends.

128. Michael 128

     LOL…

     I have NO sympathy for the pretty woman’s “struggles.”

     Any woman can make herself look less pretty. If she’s tired of being treated as a sex object, then she should simply make herself less attractive. That way, she won’t have to worry about the special treatment “issues.”

     In my opinion, most attractive women want to have their cake and eat it, too.

     They want to wear clothing that accentuates their curves, yet they will complain when the “wrong” man stares at them.

     They flirt with male suitors, yet they will lament when men seduce them.

     I could go on…

     The truth is: men carry approximately 20X more testosterone than women, so men are just being…men. We’re sexual creatures. We think about sex all day long. Constantly.

     Pretty women know this–and that’s why they dress sexy and excude flirtatiousness. They know it’s all about wielding power over men.

129. Goldie 129

     @ Michael #128, see this is exactly what the problem is, or at least part of the problem. Very attractive women are being stereotyped. People see a very attractive woman and automatically assume things about her, not all of them good. That’s one thing. Another, back to your comment, there’s nothing wrong with sex, I’m sure very attractive women want it too, but problem is, some people treat them as status symbols. People would try to have sex, or some semblance of a relationship, with a very attractive woman, not because they like her as a person, not because they think she’s a good match for them as a person, but for bragging rights, so they can later tell their friends “I banged a hot chick”. This, IMO, is the really crappy part.
      
     Of course, we’re all being stereotyped in one way or the other, pretty girls are no exception. No one has it easy.

130. Saint Stephen 130

     @Goldie
     U’re right and i agree with you that is completely shitty to bang an attractive girl for bragging sake.

     But you seem to forgetting something, and that is who this attractive women date. Extrapolating based on my anecdotal experience, I’ve always seen a scenario where this attractive women select the best looking blokes even with little or no regards to the man’s character. Hey i’m not saying anything is wrong with an attractive women selecting an equally attractive male, but the problem is the attractive women by far outnumber attractive men. And for every above average attractive guy their are 10 equally above average attractive women like that for him- all seeking to date him. If he’s only gonna marry one then the rest becomes notches added to his belt.

     That been said. I have a friend who seems to be every woman’s desire. He’s 6 2″ tall, very attractive and solidly built. He takes his pick from the best looking women and changes them like pack of cards, month after months (Of course this are women most men will love and adore and would even cringe at the thought of gambling with their hearts).
     It came a day i called him out on his behavior towards women, and he responded by saying, what’s his business if they all want to be with an attractive dude.
     He ended the conversation by telling me that they all turn into his rabbit post-banging. Sad but true, as the women all seem happy and smily the first month but look sad and gloomy by the second.

     Not trying to sound harsh but whenever i see a pretty woman sniveling about lack of boyfriend i immediately envisage a shallow woman who selects men based on looks- not character. 

131. Fabiola Martinez 131

     Oh my god! So everywhere is the same thing! I’m in Mexico, not having dates so often now, due the same reason.  What to do then?  I’ll read all the comments though.  Kind regards, Evan.

132. Rachel 132

     I am not attractive and a lot of guys I meet only want to sleep with me. There are a lot of guys out there like that.

133. Ron Diggity 133

     This article really struck a personal chord with me.  People never really understand how hard life can be for us ridiculously attractive people : (

     But the practical person in me says that less attractive people have many of the same “you’ll never know” worries, as well as a whole host of others – and they don’t get to drown their sorrows in free vacations to the Carribean and VIP treatment at the hottest clubs.

     I also compeltely disagree that men want to bag celebrities b/c they are famous. They more simply due b/c they are attractive.  Women on the other hand put more stock in that social status thing.

     I’m proud of Evan pointing out that attractive women are often socially handicapped from a life of preferential treatment.  Really, most all women are to some degree, but perfect 10′s? To be honest, I don’t know how they could escape it.

134. Gabe Asher 134

     Pretty women have more choices, but less options. Most people fall into the 4-6 range, which makes them average. This gives people in that range a LOT of choices for potential mates. A woman who is a 9-10 is only going to date another 9-10, making her options nearly non-existent, as there are many more hot chicks than high value dudes.
     .
     Respect. Tough to be a chick. Hot or not.

135. Gabe Asher 135

     An overlooked factor, the bitch shield. We’ve all seen it, fought it, even laughed at it. Most truly hot chicks develop a bitch shield early in life out of necesity. It’s the easiest way out of pick-up attempt. They know if they give one nice smile, or re-engage the conversation, the guy will never leave..
     .
     A strange phenomenon I witness is average looking chicks with bitch shields. Not a good program for her. She has envied really hot chicks and has chosen to act them, not realizing the hot chick does it out of necesity. So now you have an average looking chick with a bitch shield. She’s screwed, whereas a super hot girl with a bitch shield will STILL get action.
     .
     Another thing that happens is when a hot girl loses her sexual power as she ages, but doesn’t drop the bitch shield because she is so used to it. This is a downward spiral of bitterness as she gets approached less, making her more bitter, and more bitch face etc. Very common among aging beauties.

136. Miranda 136

     Eh, I don’t know. I am generally considered very attractive. I have done some modeling, people tend to effuse about my appearance a lot.
      
     I will admit, its difficult for me to meet men unless I am out drinking… I think partially because I’m very shy without a couple drinks and so I come off as aloof to most people. However, once I get a first date, I ALWAYS get a second date and I have no problem at all turning a date into a relationship.  In fact, I usually have the opposite problem where I am the one who just wants sex and they wind up wanting a relationship. Then again, I think part of this is that I really won’t go out with guys unless I feel like I have some chemistry with them ahead of time.
      
     Like some people have suggested, maybe you just need to loosen up a bit and not be so withholding. I pretty much always have sex on the first date, sometimes I even have sex before having a date. I just try to really put my personality out there and let guys know that I might look pretty but I’m actually just a huge nerd. I also dress pretty modestly and don’t pile on tons of makeup until I am in a steady relationship.
      
     I think you just have to focus on emphasizing your personality and maybe pick the right look. Guys just wanna screw “hot” girls, but they fall in love with “beautiful” girls. Don’t be afraid to seem a little vulnerable… it will make you less intimidating. I tend to play up my nerdiness/social awkwardness a bit and for whatever reason guys go for it.

137. larry G 137

     Beauty can be a CURSE. My family is filled with beautiful gals and i have witnessed the pitfalls . I have dated some great looking woman over the years and since she has a laundry list of possibilities you never know where you stand.  

     We are drawn to beauty life a moth to a flame and its something that we – us guys secretly want. 

      ”If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life
     Never make a pretty women your wife
     Go for my personal point of view
     Get an ugly girl to marry you”

     A player wants a trophy and the shy guy is afraid to approach her . No win there for the beautiful women. The first thing that thinks about you is your beauty and never what’s inside- integrity.

     Look for the guy who can get past your looks sometimes and treats you like a queen. He’s the one to keep.

     Look for the diamond in the ruff who appreciates that you gave him the time of day. 

     Gratitude can last a life time.   

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