Should I Dump My Parents So I Can Get Married?
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My boyfriend and I have been dating 7 months, and we’re now preparing to get engaged. I’m 21 and he’s 26. We’ve talked to both of our families about our intentions, and my boyfriend even asked my parents’ permission for my hand in marriage. We’ve made a special effort to get to know each other’s families, as we believe family intimacy is invaluable. We are both studying and have one year until we graduate so we can get full time work. However, my dad thinks that we’re not ready for marriage even though he gave us his blessing. He thinks we should wait, but we plan to get married in 6 months as our relationship is moving forward and to stop things would feel unnatural.
It’s a given we will struggle financially as students, but we’re determined and committed to each other. My boyfriend is my best friend. We share the same values and know where we are going in life. I couldn’t be happier when I am with him! My mum thinks that he isn’t handsome enough for me, which is upsetting – I think he is gorgeous. Am I caring too much about what others think? Do I need to ‘divorce my parents?’ I love them very much, but I fear I’m letting them intrude too much on our plans to get married. Yet I can’t let go of their opinions, and I feel it’s putting a strain on our relationship.
Sarah
Aw, man. I’m already afraid of becoming a parent. The dichotomy of trying to protect your kids and allow them to make their own mistakes; I don’t know how people do it.
And as much as I believe that you’re in a healthy relationship and want to side with you, I think your parents are right, and that “divorcing” them would be a big mistake.
Here’s why:
“Divorcing” your parents would be a big mistake.
You’re 21 years old.
You’re still in college.
You don’t have independent sources of income.
And, most importantly, YOU DON’T HAVE TO GET MARRIED NOW.
That, to me, is the big blind spot here.
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69 Comments »Filed Under Marriage
E. Foley 1
Ooof, I thought I wanted to marry the guy I was with from age 21-23. Then I grew up and realized that being in a long term relationship meant nothing if the person I was in it with was an a-hole.
31 year old E looks back at 23 year old E and is like… damn, girl. What were you THINKING??
I *have* divorced my parents, but because of years of emotional abuse by my mom. After years of therapy, I’ve come to peace about that. Don’t divorce your parents over something as silly as a boy.
Kat Wilder 2
Hmm, gotta agree with Evan here. First of all, seven months isn’t long enough to really know someone. And, 21 is young to be getting married. Sure, people of my parents’ generation did that, but they also tended to stay married (many times, miserably). If you love each other, that love won’t lessen in a year or two; why not continue to explore knowing each other and yourselves (and it would be great to live by yourself for a while to truly “get” being alone) before making such a commitment? Parents aren’t always right, but neither are 21-year-olds.
There’s no rush; in fact, you have a lifetime together, right?
Goldie 3
Oh Evan, where were you when I was 21?… I mean, I know you were in junior high – it’s a rhetorical question
I was, if you would believe it, tired of the dating scene and bored of living just for myself. Wanted to have someone else in my life to take care of. All good reasons… but, in hindsight, not good enough to get married just based on that.
To Sarah, do you know how many times your values, and the idea of where you’re going in life, are going to change between now and when you’re 30?… probably too many to count. Same goes for your boyfriend. Ten years from now, you both may find yourselves living next to a complete stranger that bears no resemblance to the 20-something kid you once married. That complete stranger may or may not still be your best friend – it’s a crap shoot.
And, pragmatically speaking, at least my ex and I had the excuse that, in those day’s and place’s realities (Eastern Europe, early 90s), if we hadn’t gotten married, we wouldn’t have even been able to have a place to live together and would’ve probably ended up relocating to different geographical spots and never seeing each other again. In this day and age, when a couple can just rent an apartment, move in together, give it a few years to see if it works… there’s no excuse IMO to rush into marriage.
Also, I really do not understand how you can “divorce” your parents when it appears from your post that you still depend on them financially. Basically the whole “marriage in 6 months” thing doesn’t look realistic or necessary to me from what I’ve read here.
Kat Wilder 4
And more more thing (sorry) Make sure you have a long, hard, very real discussion about kids — do we want them, when do we want them, who (if anyone) will stay home with them, etc. Most couples are unhappy in the relationship for the first year of a baby’s life (wonderful research about that from the Gottman Institute). In my experience, people who are not on the same page about kids are doomed as a couple (and, thus, as an intact family)
Hadley Paige 5
As I see it there is very little downside for a woman (even a 21 yr old) to get married. In fact, there are substantial financial incentives for a woman to get married. So what if she gets divorced later on? She will get ½ the assets and if she lives in a state like New York those assets will include the discounted present value of Husband’s lifetime future professional degree based income. Not insubstantial!
I don’t agree with Evan who says “the truth is, if your relationship is solid, then there’s no risk in NOT getting married.” There is risk for her. This guy may be a real keeper. On track to being a high achieving, responsible, satisfying husband. AND he is willing to get married!–an increasingly rare state of affairs for a man. If she is married to him he will treat the relationship more seriously and view it as more long term. I believe this increases the likelihood of success of the LTR.
If the guy is a keeper, she should move toward keeping him. One can always walk away from what one has, but the corollary is definitely not true. You cannot always grasp & keep what you want to have but do not.
Evan cites the statistic “75% of women married under age 25 end up in divorce”. What is the statistic for women under the age of 25 having their non-marital live-in relationship break up (probably much higher than 75%).
The population of women married under age 25 might be not statistically representative of the population of women as a whole. For example, the under 25 married population may be skewed toward less education, more children, more smoking, more partying or a dozen other things that may have some negative correlation with marriage success. We have no idea how many of these and other factors may or may not apply to Sarah.
In summary, for Sarah there could be much upside and little downside for her to get married (the issues of children not withstanding). Without additional facts I don’t think one can offer truly helpful particularized advice for her.
And I say this will all due respect to Evan who in my opinion is a great dating coach who tells it like it is with humor and insight. Evan is not a marriage coach, he is a dating coach. I am not sure this posting is right on for this site.
cindym7878 6
The comment that stood out to me in your letter is about the relationship “stopping.” Why do you feel it would stop? Why not a long engagement if you both feel that is the next step? I hate to say this, but you are definitely not mature enough to marry if you are even thinking about “divorcing” your parents over this. They are only looking out for you. Your mom is wrong in feeling your boyfriend isn’t attractive enough for you; she of all people should be more concerned with how this man treats you! I think you need slow it down and realize there is no rush for marriage. You obviously value Evan’s advice (as I sure do!) or you wouldn’t have bothered to ask his opinion. Listen to it with an open mind…..because I can guarantee if you don’t, one day you are really going to wish you did. Good luck to you both!
Honey 7
And if he insists on a prenup, Hadley? What then?
maria 8
Hadley terrifies me! What an awful, cynical perspective! Marry him now and get half of his value later?!!? Is this the 19th century? How bitter, bitter, bitter!! Women as merceneries?? I know some divorcees with this attitude. They are nasty people.
This girl is WAY too young and immature for marriage. She seems more in love with the idea of marriage than with her boyfriend. What is wrong with a long engagement? If he truly loves her, he won’t be going anywhere! Divorce her parents? How absurd!!
I wonder if their is a sexual component to this. Very upsetting letter. Girls have not come very far, either in Sarah or Hadley’s case. So sad!
jane 9
I am just wondering if the relationship “moving forward” means toward a sexual relationship they may not be having yet because they are NOT married….. sex is a powerful motivator and there is something about the email that makes me think this may be the case. In which case, marriage has an entirely different motivation. And would require an entirely different analysis. Did I miss something?
just sayin’
Evan Marc Katz 10
A 21-year-old college kid who is madly in love and short-sighted enough to get married after 7 months is not insisting on a pre-nup.
Kaitlyn 11
“In fact, there are substantial financial incentives for a woman to get married”
Please explain what the substantial financial incentives are for a 21 year old who is still completing her degree and receiving assitance from her parents (and perhaps even financial aid) in marrying someone who is ALSO a student? Any assets attained during that marriage would be joint assets and split should the couple divorce. It is unlikely that there will be a substantial disparity in income between the two – enough to justify spousal support. I’m not sure where this logic comes from. Marrying at 21 sets the OP up to have NO assets of her own. None.
I would be concerned that she will be short changing her education and ability to establish herself in a career, also. Will her career become secondary to his? Her education secondary to his?
“This guy may be a real keeper. On track to being a high achieving, responsible, satisfying husband. AND he is willing to get married!”
If the guy is a “real keeper” who has the best of intentions towards the 21 year OP, he would respect her enough to finish school, establish himself in a career, save money, buy a house (or at least get a nice place for them to live), buy a proper ring and wait until her family was comfortable with her getting married. If she states that she would like to finish school and begin a career prior to marriage…he would stand by her, not run away from the relationship.
Unlike Evan…I disagree with moving in with the boyfriend. I would suggest that the OP continue the dating relationship with her boyfriend, continue with her education and also maintain a healthy and active social life separate from the boyfriend.
At 21, a new chapter of life is just beginning for the OP…she should reach out and grasp it and all of the experiences she CAN, NOT settle down with someone whom she has only dated 7 months.
In fact, I would go one further step and suggest to the OP that perhaps she should evaluate whether or not she has any co-dependency issues that she needs to address. Having a boyfriend of 7 months be her best friend, rushing to marry in 6 months, contemplating “divorcing” her parents…all these lead me to wonder if perhaps she may be putting more value in this young relationship than in herself and her education and her future.
Honey 12
I was basically saying what Maria says in #8, EMK
Selena 13
Um…the very fact you bring up “divorcing” your parents is a big indicator you are not mature enough to get married. You are 21. You don’t need their permission to get married. Why do you think you can’t maintain a relationship with your parents as a married woman?
Most relationships don’t last. Period. 50% of marriages do not fulfill the “as long as we both shall live” vow. That’s higher the younger the people are when they take the vow. Should that stop you though? What do you think marriage is going to give you at age 21 that you don’t have now? Security? Uh, no. Romance? Maybe. For awhile. You’ve only been dating for 7 months – you are still in the infatuation/limerance stage of a new relationship. Why not date a year before getting engaged? Enough time for “the shine”, the “newness” to wear down. Better yet, get an apartment together and see how that goes. BIG TRUTH: you never really know someone until you live with them. Try it and see before committing yourself legally.
If you still want to get married after a year of living together, your parents will likely have less objections.
Denise 14
Great comments all around…
#5 Hadley
I guess one could look at it that way, although not a great way to start out a lifelong partnership and it is a cynical way of looking at things.
What I would counter this is TIME and appropriateness.
I have told my children throughout their lives, and especially now that they are teenagers, to do the things they are supposed to do at the age they are at. How many women out there who are 40 act like they are 21? They are doing that because at 21, when they were supposed to be out partying, hanging out with friends, making a living for themselves, gaining some maturity and insight into life, and dating a lot of different men, they were married and often having children right away. Now at 40, they are trying to make up for lost time, and there is no way that can be done. That time is gone, never to return. Couldn’t buy it back with half the settlement either.
I remember being this age (I know, I can’t believe it!)…being in school for so long, you just want to get on with it–having a real life, being an adult. What a better way to do that than to get married? Oh boy! That’s such an important decision, and there’s no frame of reference for a 21 year old make that kind of decision.
Listen to your parents, they love and care about you and are OLDER, wiser with a lot more life experience. They’ve been through the ups and downs of marriage, and know the challenges. You’re single for such a short time, and married and presumably raising children for such a LONG time.
Lily 15
Haha I agree with Jane at No.9
This has everything to do with sex. And in fact Evan says, what if the bf later decides he hasn’t had enough experience with women. Well I think she’s not putting out, he’s gonna marry her so she does, and then somewhere down the line he’ll be having his cake and eating it too. Sorry Sarah but you are a virgin and you’re thinking like a virgin, and your parents are right (ok maybe not your mum). But Daddy knows what 26 yr old boys want, and in an ideal world, it’s not a lifelong commitment.
Luxe 16
Sarah,
I had a roommate in college just like you. We were probably a couple years older, but still around the same age. She met a guy and after about 3 months they were already talking about marriage. Around 5-6 months they were engaged and she wanted to get married within a few months later which would have been around the time she graduated. Everyone told them to wait, parents and friends (me included!). She wasn’t happy about this, but guess what? She waited. They had a year long engagement… long distance at that! They had a beautiful wedding and now.. a few years later, they have their first baby boy. Don’t be afraid to wait! If he is a keeper and wants to be with you, he WILL be in the LTR without the marriage until you guys are really ready. They don’t regret at all waiting to get married.
Steve 17
Sarah;
We are not your parents. Your decision will matter to our lives either way. We don’t have your parent’s emotional investments nor do we have their baggage. We are your peers and I think most people here will give you the same advice as Evan.
Making a marriage work is in part having the good judgment to choose a person who is the right fit for you. For FIFTY Y-E-A-R-S. Thing is, at 21, you aren’t finished making yourself who you are yet, so it makes it harder to judge.
Evan is right, if you two have something, it will still be there in 5 years.
Enjoy school, enjoy being his GF and enjoy marrying him under better circumstances 5 years from now when both of you are well set up.
Steve 18
@Hadley #9
No disrespect whatsoever. I have read many opinions I haven’t liked in this comment section. Until your post I have never felt motivated to tell another comment author that I thought they were giving someone bad advice. Almost reckless advice.
At first I thought it was Gullivers Travels type of satire.
Telling a 21 year old kid that ending up in a divorce with a steady alimony check is a not-so-bad plan b and that she should risk going through an unhappy marriage because out of 80 years of life left to her in country of 270 million people she may never fall in love again, so grab this dude now, after only 7 months?
After reading your post I’m never going to let my friends call me cynical again.
A piece of paper will not keep a couple together, it will just slow them down from breaking apart. The only thing that keeps a couple together is if they have something. If Sarah and her BF have something it will still be there 5 years from now.
In the meantime they have their lives ahead of them with getting an education, enjoying their careers, trips, each other, etc etc.
Selena 19
@ Steve #18
“A piece of paper will not keep a couple together, it will just slow them down from breaking apart.”
Well phrased. A marriage license is no guarantee of ‘security’.
Goldie 20
I’ll add to all the comments on Hadley’s post #5 – not only is suggesting that, worst case scenario, Sarah will benefit financially from the divorce, incredibly cynical, but, from what I know on the subject, it’s not even realistic. You probably have to marry rich and be really good at this whole golddigging thing to ever gain anything this way. Here’s what happens in real life. I have never met a man or a woman that did not lose substantial amounts of money upfront, and did not have their expenses go up substantially later, as a result of getting divorced. First of all, divorce lawyers aren’t cheap – even the most amicable divorce will cost you a few grand – and if you decide to fight in court over things like custody or money, the price tag is freakin huge. Second, more likely than not, a divorcing couple will have children. In this case, each of them needs to have a place to live that’s decent enough (several bedrooms, safe neighborhood, decent schools for at least the custodial parent) so the children can stay there. That’s two residences instead of one. Oh, and if the couple has a house that was enough for the whole family, but would be too big, or too expensive, for just one parent & kids? good luck selling it in today’s market. Most likely one of them will be stuck with it, or sell it at a huge loss. There are many good reasons to get divorced, but monetary gain just isn’t one of them. That stuff only happens in celebrity gossip mags. Not to mention that divorce is not exactly the happiest life experience, in fact it’s often placed in the same category as a major loss in the family.
Not exactly a plan B to look forward to.
Honey 21
@Lily, #15 – I met my boyfriend when we were 26 and he almost proposed to me after 7 months (he told me after 10 months about the exact night he almost proposed!). But we decided to wait and everything’s still going great! I don’t think being 26 means a guy’s not ready to commit, though I do think it doesn’t need to be marriage-level yet.
Leslie 22
All I have to say is that everything single woman that had gotten married under the age of 26 was divorced between two to three years after getting married. For those that ended up having kids, it kind of hard dating when you are 26 or 27 with children.
BeenThereDoneThat 23
I married at 19, we were married for 18 years and then it fell apart. In looking back, I wish I had waited until I was older to get married. I missed out on some many life experiences. Of course, I had different life experiences. I lived in Germany, was a mother of 3 kids at a really young age but I didn’t use the time to go to school because I was busy with my family life. Now, I am back in school, and experiencing what it’s like to be independent and I LOVE IT. When my oldest daughter, now a freshman in college, called me the other day and said she wanted to apply to a study a year abroad, I told her to go for it! She was surprised by my attitude as she thought I would struggle with her so far away. And I will, but I’m glad she is doing these things while she can, because later doesn’t always work out.
Ruby 24
No one is telling Sarah to walk away from her boyfriend, just to work on becoming a mature adult first. Then it won’t matter what her parents think, or whether they approve of her choices or not. If her BF won’t stick around a for a year or five while she becomes more established, what possible chance do they have of making a marriage work over the course of 50+ years?
There is not much logic to Hadley Paige’s thinking. What if they have kids? The effects of divorce on kids can be huge. How do we know if Sarah’s boyfriend is a “keeper” or not? Whatever his income, studies have shown that a woman’s financial quality of life tends to decline after divorce.
She’s only 21, for pity’s sake! What’s the rush, anyway? Sex?
Hadley Paige 25
RE: Denise @ 14
“#5 Hadley “I guess one could look at it that way, although not a great way to start out a lifelong partnership and it is a cynical way of looking at things.”
I want someone who participates in these discussions to honestly tell me that a potential husband’s financial prospects are not (or should not be) a significant (not the only, not the major, just a significant) factor in a woman’s decision to get married to someone (and in my opinion, it should be if motherhood is in the cards).
I reject the accusation that I am cynical. What I am is a realist. Money is (and should be) a big factor in who a woman chooses to marry. If she wants to raise sane, unstressed children who have been adequately nurtured by their present (love by phone from the office doesn’t count), loving, unstressed mom > being adequately supported while the kids grow up is (and should be) a major consideration.
And similarly, just because I mention the realities of divorce, does not mean I am cynical. If a woman marries a high income guy, she will get a bigger check upon divorce than if she marries a low income guy. I believe that that is a fact beyond dispute.
One would be (I’ll be kind here) imprudent to not consider finances when one chooses a husband (and what one can expect in divorce is part of that calculation) Girls– it ain’t all about love,love,love. A marriage is a partnership to get thru life & money is a big part of being able to do it in a manner that smooths out the bumps.
Again, if he is a keeper, she better keep him, or someone else will.
Steve 26
Sarah;
A lot of people have given you good advice ( except for Hadley – no disrespect to her, I just disagree). I can remember a little bit of how I saw things when I was 21. Most of the advice older people gave me seemed condescending. Some of it seemed really strange and wacky. An amusing experience I have had in my life is watching how the most absurd sounding observations about life turned out to be 100% true. If you feel like we are being condescending or that we just don’t get how you feel please know that putting these kinds of thoughts into words is extremely difficult.
Evan made two points which are golden.
The first was to remember how you viewed the world when you were a kid, a teenager and how you view things now noticing how much those perspectives changed. Well, those shifts in the way you view things and what you value are going to keep coming. We aren’t any smarter than you, we are walking on the same road and are just a few blocks ahead of you. We are telling you about that pot hole you might not want to step in.
The second point is that if you have something, it will still be there in 5 years. There is nothing to lose by waiting and you will be waiting with your BF in your life so the wait will be fun and seem short.
L.K. 27
Everyone is ganging up on Hadley Paige@25
Sometimes reality is a bit cynical. I am now single and in my 30′s. If I had to do it again, I would have married a rich guy very young, while I had youth/leverage on my side. If it didn’t work out, at least I would have gotten alimony, etc..
At my age, I do have to find a nice, compatible guy ( as recommended by Evan)- I don’t have a good 10 years to try to find that rich hot catch, only to have him ditch me when I’m in my 40′s. Then, I will really have ZERO leverage.
being divorced at 27, 28 is no big deal. just be careful about whether you want to have kids too soon. And if being a divorcee means you’ve got some extra cash to burn, if you are sans kids, more power to you! Then you will be in a better position to find a guy you really care about, because you don’t need to evaluate a partner based on his income.
Cat 28
Frankly, I’m disappointed that on a blog geared towards “smart, strong, successful women” it hasn’t occurred to anyone that it might be Sarah who turns out to be the bigger wage earner once she enters the job market. It might be Sarah who takes the high figure job while her husband takes the stay-at-home dad role that so many of my high-figure earning lawyer/doctor/corporate girlfriends say they are looking for! Last thing they want is a guy who works their hours and can’t be there for the kids (or them.) They can afford the big house, fancy car, cleaning staff all on their own. They don’t need to marry someone to get any of that! They would be appalled at the suggestion that a woman’s goal should be to marry “well” (some rich guy) instead of earn a degree, a great career, and a fulfilling intellectual (& personal) life for herself. As my neighbor-poet-journalist taught her (then 10 year old) granddaughter to say, a woman should go to college & Paris and have a bank account before she gets married… (paraphrased. It was much longer. And I had to spend $1 on lemonade out of a silver teapot to hear it.)
Also, Goldie in #20 puts in some sobering perspective on the whole “marry for alimony” slant started by Hadley #5. (As for Hadley’s comment on Evan being a dating coach and not a marriage coach, you have only to read this blog in its entirety to see his evolution from expert serial dater to devoted husband. He does know quite a bit about making a relationship work –from first dates to marriage! He teaches people how to have successful, fulfilling relationships, not sugar daddies…or sugar mammas. You might be on the wrong blog.)
I love Luxe #16′s comment. Yes! “Don’t be afraid to wait! If he is a keeper and wants to be with you, he WILL be in the LTR without the marriage until you guys are really ready. They don’t regret at all waiting to get married.”
I also love Steve’s comment, #18 “Telling a 21 year old kid that ending up in a divorce with a steady alimony check is a not-so-bad plan b and that she should risk going through an unhappy marriage because out of 80 years of life left to her in country of 270 million people she may never fall in love again, so grab this dude now, after only 7 months?”
That said, I totally get Sarah’s enthusiasm and optimism. I do think she should wait, regardless of whether sex is involved (as a few commenters have questioned. I really don’t see her as some virgin ready to be deflowered through marriage.) I think it’s awesome that she’s sure she wants to marry him and spend the rest of her life with him. I also agree she should wait to do so. To underline what some others have said, oh, I wish I could send a letter to my 20-something self!!!
As for Hadley #25 “honestly tell me that a potential husband’s financial prospects are not (or should not be) a significant (not the only, not the major, just a significant) factor in a woman’s decision to get married to someone (and in my opinion, it should be if motherhood is in the cards).”
Again (big sigh) why are her financial prospects assumed to be lesser? What about a trophy wife’s life is appealing? Seriously! I can only imagine: gym, tan, plastic surgery, only to be exchanged at 40–it sounds exhausting. You, yourself, mention life ends at 40, basically. Let me tell you something about 40, since I turned this year and still am regularly carded. I am twice the woman I was at 20, and men recognize that. I have more dates and better prospects now that I’ve turned 40 because I’m confident, smart, stylish, interesting, and in many ways better looking. I only wish I’d started having Evan’s advice when I was in my 20′s… What can I say, but his Finding the One Online program has worked wonders for me.
Luxe 29
Hot diggity damn! Time for me to pan me some gold!
I do see what you are trying to say Hadley. I just don’t completely agree with you.
Ok.. I understand wanting a financially stable guy and all (I do too). But going for the rich guy because in the worse case scenario of divorce you get a nicer alimony check (cha-ching!) sounds a little… do I dare say…. golddigger-ish?
Cat, I agree. Sarah could end up being the major wage earner. We just can’t tell since she’s only 21 and hasn’t even gotten her degree finished while her BF is 26 and should be starting to get his career going (unless he’s taking a while/doing grad school etc).
Helen 30
Sarah’s letter sounds as though it were written by me, many, many years ago. The only difference (EVERYTHING else was the same, right down to each parent’s comments and my hubby’s age) was that I was 22; and that we waited longer than 6 months to get married.
We were students. We had no money and no idea what jobs we would have in the future. We each made efforts to meet the others’ families. Now we’ve been married over a decade and have 2 kids.
When you find the right one, yes, you do want to keep them. It doesn’t have to do with money, and it doesn’t have to do with looks. It has to do with finding someone who is kind and patient and devoted, with whom you feel mutual respect and can get along in a very comfortable way. That is the person you will love through thick and through thin, and the love keeps growing.
Dare I put in my unromantic two cents here: that mutual RESPECT may be even more important than romantic love when deciding upon a partner? When the respect is there, the love grows and keeps growing even after 10 years, and it is wonderful.
I think Evan and all the commenters may have glossed over one point that TO ME is absolutely crucial. Her father gave his blessing. Fathers don’t give blessings lightly. They hold onto their daughters tightly. My dad gave the exact same blessing and warning of not having to do anything too soon. But I guarantee you he wouldn’t have given his blessing if he hadn’t thought we would make it through the long haul, even if we married right then.
The daughter’s comment about divorcing her parents does seem immature to me, though, and I hope it is more motivated by the heat of the moment rather than a genuine intention.
Finally: Evan, are you going to become a parent soon?
One of your comments seemed to suggest that.
Denise 31
#25 Hadley
Agreed on determining if a man is able to support a family, and how the woman feels about that. Coming from a marriage where I was the breadwinner and that took way more of my masculine energy than was good for our relationship, I tell my daughter to make sure she considers this when deciding to get married. However, let’s assume he makes huge money, does that make him the best husband for her? I would argue not necessarily, ask those women who have very successful husbands what their lives are like.
In this situation, these two are in their early 20′s. Kindof difficult to determine there’s going to be a huge, fat payout in the end. (which still feels cynical)
In general, going into any marriage thinking ahead to the possibility of divorce is probably not a good sign!
Karl R 32
Hadley Paige said: (#25)
“I reject the accusation that I am cynical. What I am is a realist.”
When I was young and cynical, I though of myself as being a “realist” too. As I got older and wiser, I realized that cynicism was no more realistic of an outlook than optimism.
L.K. said: (#27)
“Sometimes reality is a bit cynical.”
Def’n – cynical:
1. distrusting or disparaging the motives of others.
2. showing contempt for accepted standards of honesty or morality by one’s actions, esp. by actions that exploit the scruples of others.
3. bitterly or sneeringly distrustful, contemptuous, or pessimistic.
Reality is incapable of being cynical. Reality simply is.
People can be cynical.
Hadley, I’d say your posts on previous topics make even better examples of cynicism than the ones you’ve expressed in this thread.
http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/relationship-advice-my-girlfriend-wants-to-get-married-but-i%E2%80%99ll-lose-my-health-insurance-what-do-i-do/#comment-63229
Would you like some reality? If someone is a cynic (distrustful of the motives of others), it’s highly likely that their own motives aren’t trustworthy. It’s almost impossible to believe that everyone is untrustworthy if simple introspection shows you that at least one person is.
It’s natural to believe that most people are like us.
Steve said to Sarah: (#26)
“We aren’t any smarter than you, we are walking on the same road and are just a few blocks ahead of you.”
I agree.
My girlfriend and I have been dating for about 15 months. I intend to marry her, and I’ve believed that that was the inevitable course we were on since the 6 month mark. But I still thought it was worthwhile for us to go slowly, since our relationship has continued to change even over that short period of time.
The intense feeling of being “in love” is caused by chemicals in our brain. Those chemicals wear off sometime between one and three years into the relationship.
http://people.howstuffworks.com/love8.htm
Hadley (#5 and #25) is advising that you marry quickly, while your boyfriend’s decision is still being influenced by chemicals. That way, if he changes his mind when the chemicals wear off, it will cost him a lot of money to leave you.
Evan (and most of the rest of us) are recommending that you wait, so you aren’t making that decision while influenced by chemicals. For me (and presumably my girlfriend), they’re already wearing off. We still have a strong relationship (even though it feels less intense). That’s something that I can count on for the next 40 years.
Goldie 33
Hadley #25, so what I’m hearing from you in this post is that a woman should not marry a college student
since money is an important factor, and all he has right now is a ton of student loans and no definite future. His career may, or may not, work out – there’s no way to tell at this point. So, um, from that standpoint, why should she “keep him”? Your post appears to contradict itself.
Also, nice assumption that women only work/have careers when the man cannot put enough food on the table: ” If she wants to raise sane, unstressed children who have been adequately nurtured by their present (love by phone from the office doesn’t count), loving, unstressed mom > being adequately supported while the kids grow up is (and should be) a major consideration.” Is it OK with you that some of us are good at what we do, like our jobs, and set positive examples for our children by being fulfilled in our work? Or should we go back into the kitchen?
Denise 34
#33 Goldie
I see where you are coming from, I have always been career oriented and enjoy the challenge of a career. I was also lucky enough to have a period of 4 years when my kids were young to stay home during the day and work a flexible part time job at night.
Having both worlds (full time work in a careeer vs. part time work to bring in money), I believe the BEST situation for a marriage and the children is if the wife (or husband if they don’t mind the role reversals, although I do think that’s a tall order in the long run) stays home and runs the household and raises the children. It is much less stressful and more harmonious. That doesn’t mean the other person doesn’t contribute or help with the house or the kids.
It was tedious being home, it’s the same thing day in and day out, and I had a busy social life with my kids so it wasn’t like I was at home 25X7. It’s volunteering at the school, it’s errands, it’s making meals and cleaning up after meals. These were the best years of my life and indeed, were the less stressful for me in regard to keeping up the household stuff and raising the kids and having a calm family life.
Eventually I went back full time because I needed more of a challenge in regard to the work I was doing. That’s just the kind of person I am and I also wanted a better life for my family that I knew my husband was not going to be able to provide.
Everyone is different, and I’m sure there will be some that will balk at this, however, I don’t think my experience in regard to being home is so unique. And I also don’t believe that mothers, who have had the opportunity to stay home and not work, would not say their households didn’t run better, their marriages were happier and stress levels were less.
I also have to say I’m a traditionalist
TripleM 35
Hadley is (or at least has previously said he is) a man, not a woman.
Alimony, in the traditional “1950′s gold-digger” sense, is very rare in America today. In most states, it won’t be awarded if the spouses are both capable of supporting themselves; it will often only be awarded if one spouse was economically dependent on the other during the course of the marriage (and it’s less likely to be awarded if the marriage was short); and it is often awarded only for a specified “rehabilitative” amount of time — so the receiving spouse can get the education/training needed to be self-supporting.
(If there are young kids in the picture, some states will occasionally award alimony — apart from child support — to the custodial parent, on the theory that it’s better for the child if the custodial parent can be at home. Again, though, I don’t think that typically lasts for the entire legal childhood of the kid.)
The old stereotype of “marry the old guy, put up with him for a few years, dump him, and then be set for life” hasn’t been widely accurate for a very long time.
Despite what you read on those “never marry an American woman” web sites . . . ;
Lilli 36
I would love to see a reference for this statistic:
75% of marriages where the bride is under the age of 25 end in divorce.
The 75% just seems too high to me. Maybe I’d buy it if it said brides under age 18.
Stephanie 37
Sarah,
I am 22, just graduated from college. One year ago I was ready to marry my boyfriend. I loved him, he was crazy about me, and I wanted nothing more but to start my life with him. He was an amazing man and I an amazing woman, so why wouldn’t we work out together?
College is a great little bubble, especially for relationships. My guess is that you guys live within walking distance from each other, can meet during the day, have pretty in-sync schedules, can participate in the same activities and share a group of friends.
All of this changes the moment they hand you a degree. Your bubble bursts and your world changes. The stress of finding a job is enough to break up even the best relationship. Bursting the college bubble will be a great test for you guys, and honestly, by the way you talk you guys might have a really good chance of staying together.
But then comes the job itself, where to live, are you going to have to move, is he? Who’s going to be the one to give something up to accomodate? Then comes the friends. He wants his guys friends, he makes friends at work, co-workers, you make your friends and all of a sudden your completely in-sync lifestyles are seperated. But lets say you guys make it through that too…(again, very possible).
Now you’re starting your career, and he his. You gotta be focused, make a good impression, work longer hours just to impress your boss into giving you the pay you deserve. You barely see each other between conflicting work schedules. You have bills and fights about bills and more bills because you’re new to this whole living on your own with a job thing and it’s stressful, very very stressful. Do you know how he handles stress? Does he know how you handle it? Unless you know each other in this state and understand how each other deals with stress and anger and frustration, then you could confuse a back handed comment stemming from bad day at work for a spiteful insult meant to hurt you. Which leads to more fighting and more stress. Yadda…yadda…yadda…
As you can see, my boyfriend and I didn’t make it. We dealt with stress differently. Our careers tore us apart because neither of us wanted to give up our career for the other’s.
My advice: take a couple years. And don’t take them as a delay for marraige, take them as a pretest. If you two can make it through all of that, then you have a very strong chance at marraige. It’ll be a comfort to know if you do get married that you have made it through a tough time together.
If he wants to put a ring on it, then let him put a ring on it. Long engagements are very in right now. But just wait to make sure you know what and who you’re saying I Do to before you walk down the isle.
Being in love is great. But being smart about being love is even greater.
Good luck with everything, Sarah.
Goldie 38
Also, my career took a pretty big hit because of this 4-year break that I took (involuntarily). I had to start over as an entry-level at 30. My kids will both start college and need cars over the next few years and I guarantee you I could use a bigger paycheck, but what’s done is done. I put a lot of work into raising the kids and there were definitely benefits to my having stayed at home, but there were downsides as well. FTR my mom only stayed with me for five months and I think I turned out fairly well
Anyway, it’s an individual decision that each family makes for themselves based on what works better for them. I just saw an implication in Hadley’s post that really rubbed me the wrong way – that by default, women should stay at home, unless their husband doesn’t earn enough. That’s a weird thing to see on a site for “smart, strong, successful women”. I know many women who make a real difference at their workplace – some of them were (and still are) my children’s doctors and teachers that had a great influence on them. Going back to Sarah, she’d probably be surprised to find out that, if she marries her BF now, her career (that hasn’t even started yet) should end in a few years, as soon as the kids come. I’ll bet money she hasn’t been planning on that
Evan Marc Katz 39
@Lilli See Elizabeth Gilbert’s follow up to “Eat Pray Love” called “Committed”. There’s your 75% statistic.
Denise 40
#38 Goldie
Wow, it’s like we were living parallel lives! It sounds like the biggest difference was I thought being home made my marriage better because I was taking care of the household things during the day, so weekends and the one evening I had off could be spent in a leisurely way - maybe it was because I worked at night too
.
Like you, my career took a hit as well–although I would never trade the decision I made and the time I had with my kids for anything, sounds like you feel the same way.
I also agree that ‘it’s not a perfect world’ (one of my favorite sayings) and it is a decision for each family to make. However, as we know, hindsight is 20/20 and wisdom comes with time. The last two sentences of your post are right on!
#37 Stephanie
I think this post is awesome and representative of how life moves through phases. I can totally see school as being this ‘bubble’, then the realities of life set in.
I also go back to being the age you are when you’re that age. Be 21 when you’re 21, be 25 when you’re 25–just worried about yourself and making your way in the world (the generic you BTW). Prepare in case your husband is not around (death, divorce, disability) by getting a skill you can fall back on.
On the other side of the coin, I have also noticed with on line dating the number of men who are older who have younger children. There is also the situation where people wait for the ‘right’ person, get antsy because they want a family, and then marry and have children, only to find out that was not the right person. At least, however, they are more financially set because they are older.
So, it’s not a perfect world. If I had to make a mistake, I’d rather make a mistake on the side of waiting til I got out of school and established a life for myself (with my man in it of course), then come together as equal partners.
C. 41
I dated a 28 year old student when I was a 20 year old student. He wasn’t rich then and he isn’t rich now. If I had married him, I’d be the breadwinner. Not that anythings wrong with that per se. Just sayings all, since the convo went in that direction.
Ruby 42
Lies, damed lies, and statistics:
Don’t know where Elizabeth Gilbert got her information, but According to the National Center for Health Statistics, 60 percent of marriages for couples between the ages of 20 and 25 end in divorce, as opposed to 50 percent of all marriages in which the brides are 25 or older. Most of the info I’ve found shows that a woman who marries younger than 25, without a college degree and lacking an independent income has a higher probability of her marriage ending in divorce.
From Wikipedia: 81% of college graduates, over 26 years of age, who wed in the 1980s, were still married 20 years later. 65% of college graduates under 26 who married in the 1980s, were still married 20 years later. 49% of high school graduates under 26 years old who married in the 1980s, were still married 20 years later.[
Here’s another interesting statistic: Children of divorce have a higher risk of divorce when they marry, and an even higher risk if the person they marry comes from a divorced home. One study found that when the wife alone had experienced a parental divorce, her odds of divorce increased to 59 percent. When both spouses experienced parental divorce, the odds of divorce nearly tripled to 189 percent.
Second and third marriages have much higher divorce rates as well, 67% and 73%, respectively.
A.Sands 43
I went with my heart many years ago. Didn’t listen to my parents or anyone who thought I was out of my mind. Big mistake. I wish I could do it all over again. Parents have experience and your best interest at heart. Even though you sometimes don’t want to hear wha they have to say. They are right more often then not.
Evan Marc Katz 44
From Gilbert’s “Committed” p. 123: “The age of the couple at the time of their marriage seems to be the most significant consideration. The younger you are when you get married, the more likely you are to divorce later. In fact, you are ASTONISHINGLY more likely to get divorced if you marry young. You are, for example, two to three times more likely to get divorced if you marry in your teens or early twenties than if you wait until your thirties or forties…When we are very young, we tend to be more irresponsible, less self-aware, more careless, and less economically stable than when we are older. Therefore, we should not get married when we are very young. This is why 18 year olds don’t have a 50% divorce rate; they have a 75% divorce rate, which blows the curve for everyone else. The cutoff is 25 – couples who marry before that are exceptionally more divorce prone”.
You can try to separate college grads from the conversation, but non-college grads make up 2/3 of the American population. The real point is that getting married before 25 is, statistically, a bad bet and it costs the O.P. nothing to continue to date her devoted boyfriend for 5 more years. By the way, I’ve met two amazing women in the past month who were with college boyfriends for 9+ years and recently broke up. People change – bigtime – in their 20′s. You’d have to be blind to suggest otherwise. Nothing good comes out of them getting married now. The defense rests, your honor.
Denise 45
And for the percentage of marriages that don’t end in divorce, MOST of them ENDURE. Which means, they are not happy, successful unions.
I’m with Evan, no harm in waiting, there is nothing lost.
Helen 46
I got married under 25, and am still married over a decade later.
I can’t believe I’m backing up Hadley Paige on a point (witness the scuffle we got into in the “Why don’t men like strong, smart, successful women?” post), but here it is. When you find the right one, there is not much reason to wait. The right one is one whose personality is compatible with yours AND is kind and willing to compromise. Marry him. Marry her. Lest s/he slip away.
Please allow me to give a dose of unromantic (or romantic, depending on how you look at it) reality. I really do believe that a couple that isn’t married is more likely to break up than the same couple that is married. When you’re married, you try harder to make the marriage work. And sometimes it fails, as divorce statistics bear out – but other times, thank God, it succeeds.
Denise #45, you speak of “enduring” as though it were something bad. It isn’t. Sticking with your mate even when times are rough means that when you make it through those rough patches, you’re closer and more deeply committed than ever. There is value in COMMITMENT in and of itself, separate from romantic feelings. There is security, trust, friendship, shared memories and laughter and tears.
So, when you find the right one, don’t wait.
Joe 47
Maybe I just can’t wrap my brain around it, but I don’t know how you can have a 189% chance of getting a divorce…unless you plan on getting divorced twice.
Goldie 48
Helen:
I mean, there is compromise and teamwork and working through difficult times together, and then there’s the enduring that Denise is talking about, when people would give anything to get away from one another, but are stuck together for whatever reason (material, etc).
“The right one is one whose personality is compatible with yours AND is kind and willing to compromise.”
I agree in general. But, when this person is in his early 20′s, and you’re in your early 20′s, more likely than not his personality will still change, as will yours. You know that he, as he is right now, is the right one for you right now. But you cannot tell if you’re right for each other long term. Not only that, but most people in their late teens/early 20s do not have enough people skills, experience and judgment yet to accurately evaluate one another’s personality.
Granted, some people are mature enough even at a young age to choose right, and to sustain a long term relationship. The LW, from her letter, does not come across as one of them.
“I really do believe that a couple that isn’t married is more likely to break up than the same couple that is married. “
I agree with you. That’s because, in a marriage, the stakes are higher. Separating is more time-consuming and more expensive that when you’re not married to each other. For the longest time, I thought I could not afford to get divorced.
“Sticking with your mate even when times are rough means that when you make it through those rough patches, you’re closer and more deeply committed than ever. “
Yah, either that or you come out on the other end hating each other’s guts, because one of you (or both) let the other person down when times got rough, and you know that if your partner did it once, he or she will do it again
Marriage is serious business, so why not ensure it has the best start possible. To me, jumping into it before you’re ready is like enrolling your child in an activity that he’s too young for, just because there’s an opening on the team now and there may not be one next year. Or like buying your dream house even though it’s ten times your current annual salary, because if you don’t snatch it, somebody else will. IMO it pays to wait. Worst case scenario, there will be other activities and other houses.
Denise 49
#46 Helen
Good for you for having such a great marriage! You and your husband are lucky people, and I wish you nothing but the best for your future. I too know people who were married before they were even legal to drink or just out of college and/or dated since they were 16. From what I can see, they will never divorce. I’m very happy for them as well, they are all friends of mine.
I don’t think anyone is saying that it NEVER happens where couples who marry young survive and flourish. We’re saying that statistically, long term, happy marriages are not the norm.
I think if one has to get married so they don’t ‘get away’, that’s not a good place to start with either. Why can’t the young couple date and get their lives established individually rather than as a married couple? Either living together or not? If it’s meant to be, it’s meant to be. Your marriage sounds like it’s strong AND was meant to be, so if you two waited a few extra years you’re saying there wouldn’t have been a marriage? I think Goldie’s analogies are good, they point to a lack of patience (something I’ve struggled with in the past).
Goldie mentioned the meaning behind ‘endure’ in her post. Maybe it’s because you haven’t been single in a long time and haven’t been single as an older person, but believe me, there are plenty of marriages out there that ‘endure’. Religious reasons, lack of confidence, financial reasons, staying for the kids, etc., etc. None of these are BAD reasons for staying, but if the people in the relationship had a choice, they would not want to be with that other person. They didn’t ‘choose wisely’ to begin with, me included.
The point of endure in this context is that the statistics may say that 50% of people divorce, but that doesn’t mean the other 50% are happy marriages, many of them just endure.
You are so right about the ups and downs of marriage and life. Any couple that can continue to stay in love and manage through them to come out stronger in the end, I admire them and that’s what I want for my life. I bet those people would say their marriages are strong and happy and successful, I don’t think they say they ‘endure’. I know it’s not the exact term, just taking some license with the definition.
Helen 50
Goldie, we’ve discussed various topics in different posts, so I know you have a wise and an experienced view on these things. Yet, I’d like to throw out a few contrary ideas and questions:
1. I am not as doubtful as you about the ability of young 20-somethings to discern character, nor do I think people’s personalities change that much over time. Even in your early 20s, you know in your gut whether another person is a good person. If you DON’T have that basic level of discernment, then I don’t think that maturing another 5 years will necessarily give much more insight.
2. People who wait too long often (not always, but often) get more desperate and are more willing to get married at any cost. This, more than finding “the one” at a younger age, seems to me to be a greater risk factor in choosing the wrong person. Lori Gottlieb’s messages do make a great deal of sense.
3. I don’t think we readers can really be the judge of whether or not an anonymous 20-something is ready for marriage. “Worst case scenario, there will be other activities and other houses…” Not always, and not that easily. Among my single or recently married girlfriends, the complaint is or was that they let someone go with whom they knew they could have been compatible, thinking someone better would come or that they should wait – and now they regret it.
The problem is that it works both ways. We can’t be overly cautious, nor should we be completely heedless of others’ warnings. Look before you leap, but he who hesitates is lost. I would say, both apply here.
Selena 51
I was really surprised recently to read divorce statistics for different marriages. 45% of first marriages end. 60% for second marriages and 73% for third marriages. Presumably one is older (and has more life experience) by the time they enter a second or third marriage, yet it would appear that the chance of getting divorced may be greater than marrying for the first time in one’s 20′s.
If one marries for a third time in middle age, the odds are much the same as marrying for the first time at 18. Maybe the problem isn’t with age, maybe it’s with the insitution of marriage itself.
Helen 52
Denise #49, thanks for your viewpoints. I have to say, after reading what both you and Goldie wrote, I can’t help wondering whether marriage isn’t the best institution, and whether we should all just have “bondings” that are separate from the state so as to avoid some of the worst tragedies associated with divorce. Of course, it’s not just the state; it’s also the complications associated with having children. You know, there just is no easy answer to any of this.
Selena 53
I also don’t understand this “marry him before he gets away!” position. If he loves her why would he want to “get away” if she doesn’t marry him within the next year? And marriage isn’t ownership. If he wanted to get away at some point he would, married or not.
The 20′s is the decade of greatest change for many if not most people, but maintaining a happy marriage appears to be a crapshoot in any decade of life as well.
amy 54
There seems to be an unnatural bias here against marriage in one’s 20s. Lots of people want to get married young and start a large family, and why isn’t that okay?
I do think one should be financially responsible and independent, but let’s take our (liberal) biases away. Plenty of people get married young and are happy.
Evan Marc Katz 55
Actually, Amy, 75% of the people who get married young (before 25) to start their large families end up getting divorced. It’s perfectly okay and legal for you to get married when you’re just out of college. History shows that it’s usually not a wise idea.
Sam P. 56
Amy,
“Lots of people want to get married young and start a large family, and why isn’t that okay?”
What is okay isn’t always smart. There’s absolutely no moral criticism in saying “Don’t get married when you’re 22,” it’s only a concern about how long a marriage initiated in youth is going to last.
Goldie 57
#54 Amy, actually this blog, of all places, would be most likely prone to “an unnatural bias here against marriage in one’s 20s” – just because a lot of people on here did get married in their early 20s, to young men or women that were also in their early 20s, and where did it get us? we’re here on this site, aren’t we? learning how to date in our 40s and 50s, trying to explain it to our teenage kids and not die of embarrassment in the process, instead of enjoying a happy, long marriage like we’d prefer to. (With a few commendable exceptions, I must add, Helen
)
We just don’t want the next generation to screw up like we did. That’s all. Especially here and now, when there are so many alternate options available to them that weren’t available to some of us when we were that age. At the very least, they should give it a heck of a lot of thought and not rush into a major life change that a marriage is.
Denise 58
#52 Goldie
One of my favorite sayings “It’s not a perfect world”
Ultimately, I do believe that marriage is the foundation and fabric of society–and the best thing for children. I didn’t choose wisely Goldie, and I think a lot of people are in my same situation, no matter what their age by the way! (I am NOT speaking about any kind of abuse or neglect, that’s a whole separate thing.) I married a good man, he just wasn’t the right man for me. Some people decide that it’s best the two people go their own separate ways, regardless if there are children or not, and some choose to wait it out, sometimes forever.
There ARE people like you however that did choose correctly, maybe it was that you were more mature than many of us, maybe it was luck–who knows? The end result though is that you are in a good place. I’m sure not everything is 100% rosy all the time, but you have that underlying love that allows for a couple to decide that it’s better to stay together to work through it than to leave. I would counsel anyone that if there any glimpse of love, to stay the course and work it out.
Honestly though, I think most people can say that who they were at 20 is not who they were at 30 or even 40. Someone said that the father gave his blessing and that was an important fact, I agree with that! No one is saying the young man isn’t a good man or the young woman isn’t a good woman–it’s just that the reality of the situation is most marriages of really young people don’t work out too well. What’s wrong with waiting a few years, saving money, putting yourself in a good financial positions to make life easier and give yourself choices (the generic ‘you’)?
#57 Goldie
Couldn’t have said it better Goldie! And we remember when we were young, we knew ‘everything’. We live longer today, women have more options and choices, women seem to be able to have babies at any age
, etc.–these are good things that are available, why not take advantage of them?
shalini 59
Denise #14
i agree with the thing about wanting to have a “real life”. It’s very short sighted.
personally i think, i am going to have that “real life” all my life. And the busy life after a job+marriage+kids doesn’t leave that much time for friends, more so since they will have their own husbands, jobs and kids to take care of. Its much better to have fun now so that when you really want to marry you have experienced life.
Denise 60
#59 Shalini
Good point, I would also clarify that having a family is a wonderful experience, with our without children. In my opinion, there is not one stage of life that is ‘better’ than another, they are just dramatically different.
Someone is 21, just out of college. Why not experience the early 20s being single and carefree, not worrying about anyone but yourself (not considering any kind of sick relative or elderly parents). Then perhaps marrying at 25, 26. There is NOTHING like just being concerned about yourself and no one else. Once marriage and/or kids come, that time is over, and really, that time is over forever–there will always be another human to consider (unless there are no children and a divorce).
Ruby 61
Joe #47
<<Maybe I just can’t wrap my brain around it, but I don’t know how you can have a 189% chance of getting a divorce…unless you plan on getting divorced twice.>>
I’m not a statistician, just copied this directly from the study. I did preface my comments with the old chestnut about statistics!
Also from the same study: “the risk of divorce is far below fifty percent for educated people going into their first marriage, and lower still for people who wait to marry at least until their mid-twenties, haven’t lived with many different partners prior to marriage, or are strongly religious and marry someone of the same faith”.
Selena #51
Perhaps divorced people who re-marry are carrying the same unresolved issues into their new relationships?
Maggie16 62
If these were my children I would advise them to wait until they’ve dated for at least 2 years before marriage. But I think it would be okay for them to get engaged after the first year.
But my one caveat would be that they should not get married until after they’ve both graduated from college and found jobs.
Selena 63
I’m with you Maggie16.
A-L 64
I agree with Jane #9 & Lily 15. I think this couple is waiting on marriage to have sex. The rapid pace, the asking of the father’s blessing for the marriage, etc. It also rings a lot of bells in terms of other relationships I’ve observed where people did not want to have premarital sex.
As Maggie (#62) just said, waiting a full year before getting engaged is important. Sometimes people have seasonal depression or other issues that develop. At one point I had been seriously dating someone and had started talking about marriage 6-7 months into the relationship. 9 months in a serious issue arose that was a complete shocker and not in line with the previous time period. We ended up working through that issue and are now married, but it would have been a very scary thing for that issue to have arisen after we were already married, or even engaged.
So regardless of one’s age, there is a purpose in waiting, even if you don’t want to wait 5 years as many of the other posters have recommended. But waiting long enough to find out what issues you are likely to face in your marriage and see if those are issues you’re willing to work on together, or if they’re dealbreakers. And I’d recommend waiting on telling people you’re engaged, or at least wait to start actually planning your wedding. Just as many people have a difficulty initiating a divorce because of cost issues, many people have a difficulty initiating a breakup when a lot of money has been shelled out for a wedding or when they’re afraid of not meeting others’ expectations.
Joe 65
I think most Men are anti-marriage, so to actually find a Man who wants to get married is a miracle because when she’s 30 and single, she will be desperate to get married, only she won’t be able to find any willing men. These days both Marriage and Divorce are acceptable. “Its better to have been Married once than to be 40 and Never Married at all” – because its okay to be married and its okay to be divorced. Its accepted that most marriages, even if someone is married at the “right age of 27″ doesn’t mean that the marriage will last. The Marriage Years may be the best Years of her life. If she wants kids now, then that should be okay, if she can financially support them. Get married, and give marriage your best shot, because you never know if you’ll have another chance at marriage.
Evan Marc Katz 66
Hey Joe, if most men were anti-marriage, there wouldn’t be 50 million married men and 85% of all men married by the time they’re 40…
Joe 67
Hey Evan, you might not agree, but the reason those Men are married is because they have children. In 2011, most Men realize that marriage is primarily for having children, otherwise there won’t be any incentive to put your financial life in peril. If a woman really wants an LTR or marriage, I would say get off the pill, and stay celibate until a man knows you well enough to want to spend his entire life with you in holy marriage. Otherwise, a man is just using you for quickie sex without the hassles of a relationship. There seems to be a greater fear of Divorce in society than the happiness of marriage. If a 27 year old man is ready to be a husband and father, then he should be able to get married, because good husbands and good fathers don’t come around very often. Even if the bride is only 21, the man may be the best catch of her life. In society, women are pressured to “get married” because “the wedding is the best day of her life” and become a “perfect wife” but society doesn’t place much emphasis on being good husbands (other than having a high paying job) or fatherhood.
Karl R 68
Joe said: (#67)
“the reason those Men are married is because they have children. In 2011, most Men realize that marriage is primarily for having children,”
Your view toward marriage is about 900 years out of date. That attitude hasn’t existed since before medieval times.
Joe said: (#65)
“I think most Men are anti-marriage”
If most men are anti-marriage, and men primarily get married for children, how do you explain all the couples who get married/re-married later in life when they’re too old to have children?
And if a man gets remarried when kids are not a possibility, that strongly implies that he had resons (besides children) for his previous marriage as well, even if he had children in a prior marriage.
How do you explain every couple who gets married and chooses not to have kids?
Even if a couple has children, that may not have gotten married for that reason. One of my brothers-in-law got married 10-15 years before he decided that he wanted to be a father.
Joe said: (#67)
“a man is just using you for quickie sex without the hassles of a relationship.”
Your assertions (men not wanting to get married, men only getting married to have children, men using women for quickie sex) may be true for you and your friends. They aren’t true for most of the men I know.
Since you’re making assertions about what most men want, I’m curious as to the source of your information. I’m sure you haven’t spoken to most men in this country (or even your city). And I haven’t seen any studies or surveys that back up your claims.
Joe said: (#67)
“There seems to be a greater fear of Divorce in society than the happiness of marriage.”
If the marriage ends in divorce, then it’s almost certain that the marriage wasn’t happy. Furthermore, if people were afraid of divorce, but indifferent to the unhappiness of the marriage, they would remain in unhappy marriages instead of getting divorced.
Joe said: (#67)
“even if someone is married at the ‘right age of 27′ doesn’t mean that the marriage will last. The Marriage Years may be the best Years of her life. [...] Get married, and give marriage your best shot, because you never know if you’ll have another chance at marriage.”
If the marriage is a bad or abusive one, those years may also be the worst years of the woman’s life.
What makes 27 the “right age” to get married (other than your claim that it is)? I’ve never heard anyone make that claim before.
In the last month, two of my dance partners (women in their 50s) got married. I know lots of couples getting married in their 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s. There’s always a chance to get married again … even if you don’t know when it will occur.
Joe 69
I’m sorry to confuse you, I meant marriage/monogamy because as men we all know that there are married men who are cheaters, and then there are married men who have not yet been caught. As we have seen in this Dating blog, its primarily women who want the Dream of a LTR/Marriage/Loyalty and are obsessed with finding the one perfect Man. Does a Man want One Woman to be married to, yes, does a Man want to sleep with more than one woman, yes eventually. The financial devastation of divorce is destructive, so if a man can get consistent booty without a legally binding contract, he should, and then when he gets bored after 5 years, he can dump her and find a hotter younger woman. Sure its pessimistic, but it happens more often than you think.
As for singles over 60 needing marriage, because they can’t survive alone, without someone to physically help take care of their needs or obtain social security/medicare benefits. Its out of necessity, not choice.
A single woman wants to get married between the ages of 25-30 because that is her prime birthgiving ages. After age 35, single women may not be able to have children. A woman’s “perfect age to get married is 27″ but a man can get married whenever he wants.