Am I Selling Out For Not Dating Within My Race?
- Being Selective, Dating
Dear Evan,
I just read your post on the difficulties that Asian men have in dating interracially. You don’t address racial dynamics much on your blog, but I have a question for you: I’m a very attractive, westernized Asian female in my early 30’s. Fun-loving, outgoing and attract all kinds of men easily. According to a number of studies and also, based on my own observations, most Asian women have a preference for white men over their own and aren’t likely to consider blacks or Hispanics.
To be blunt, I’m convinced most Asian women seek out white men because a) they are generally seen as more desirable catches by society b) they want their children to have as many advantages as possible in life – infusing some “European” blood in the mix will increase the odds that they will have more physiological advantages. However, I’m a little different: though I have dated white guys, I deliberately don’t gravitate towards them because I can’t let go of that Utopian ideal in which one day people truly will be “color blind.” As much as possible, I try to give the “other race” category more of a chance. I suppose it’s my own twisted way of trying to contribute to a more just world.
But, it’s a bit more complicated. I kinda feel guilty about the fact that I’m not attracted to Asian men. Dating white men makes me feel like a sell out! And so, I opt for “other.” Thus, in the end, I still haven’t escaped being prejudiced in some way. A truly open minded person wouldn’t discriminate the way I would. Anyways, here’s my problem: As I reflect on my dating history, I’m keenly aware of the fact that in my past I twice rejected white guys who were perfect complements for me (and handsome, to boot). The “other race” categories of guys that I had the hots for, all in some way had the same psychological issues that I had, and so what drew us together also pulled us apart.
I’m now in my 30’s and still single. White men love me. Just accept one and — ta-da- this grueling thing called dating will be over. They won’t understand me the way that a minority, “other race” person would, but they will probably be more devoted. But why do I feel so defeated in accepting this idea? It’s as if the gravitation pull of the natural dynamics of interracial dating is just too strong for my feeble attempts to want the world to be different than what it actually is. I am simplifying things here, but this is the gist of my issues. I’m sure there is a non white guy out there who could also be devoted to me, but, hey, the clock is ticking and I don’t have forever to wait for the perfect guy. Please Evan, give me the blunt truth on where my blind spots are.
Lily
Dear Lily,
A few years ago, I got a call from a journalist from an Israeli newspaper called Ha’aretz.
It wasn’t so much of an interview as an assault. It kind of went like this:
“What’s wrong with Jewish men?!”
“What’s wrong with Jewish men?! They’re screwing up an entire generation of our religion. They’re mamas boys with God complexes. And they refuse to settle down with nice Jewish girls. As a Jewish man, what do you think is wrong with Jewish men?”
To this highly biased and subjective question, I tried to give the most objective answer I could:
“I don’t entirely disagree with your assessment of Jewish men. But I think that the larger issue is that Jewish women are largely the same way. Highly intelligent, highly accomplished, highly demanding, highly unrealistic in their expectations. This creates friction when both the man and the woman have the same strengths and weaknesses. The only difference is that Jewish men are willing to sacrifice a Jewish wife in return for happiness. Jewish women are more likely to try to insist upon Jewish husbands.”
(For analysis of a different, but similar interview, please click here)
And it’s true. My six best friends from college are Jewish. My four male cousins are, too. NONE of us married Jewish women.
Not because we didn’t want to, per se. Hell, I was on JDate for nearly 10 years!
The reason I didn’t marry Jewish was simply this:
a) We make up 1.8% of the population.
b) We’re kind of difficult. And for a 40-year marriage, I wanted easy. Lots of others come to similar conclusions. In Judaism, the intermarriage rate is over 50%.
I’m not endorsing this necessarily. I’m just pointing out that the phenomenon is real and trying to draw logical conclusions from the statistics.
To parallel this to your situation, Lily: you want to stay within your race. I get that. I had a Chinese client in Los Angeles last year and an Indian woman in New Jersey who felt the same way. But they didn’t just want an “Asian” or “Indian” husband; they wanted a first generation-American whose parents were from the same exact caste/region as her parents. That narrows their opportunities considerably as you can imagine.
Life is about tradeoffs.
For some people, staying within the tribe is more important than anything.
They will marry one of the ten men in their city who qualify demographically and make the best of the situation. They may have to compromise on wit, kindness, looks, money, compatibility and 50 other things, but at least they’ll have little Jewish/Asian/Indian babies with 100% pure ethnic blood. That is their prerogative.
It’s the content of the character that matters most, not the color of the skin.
Folks like me, who have dated people of every race and religion, have come to the conclusion that it’s the content of the character that matters most, not the color of the skin. And while I may have been looking for a Jewish woman because it would be easier for her to understand me, I wasn’t willing to give up my Catholic girlfriend who turned out to be the greatest person I’ve ever known of any religion.
Many Jews would have given her up.
And a disproportionate number of them are still single.
As a dating coach, my loyalty is to YOUR happiness, Lily. I have no vested interest in keeping races pure for ideological reasons; only an interest in helping people find compatible partners.
If dating a man just like you NEVER seems to work and feels like putting a square peg in a round hole, I’d highly consider a relationship with someone slightly different, where the pieces might not look the same, but they fit together perfectly.
Margaret says
Awe, that’s beautiful. Thanks Evan!
Steve says
Lily;
I did read in your email that you realize your desires are a bit inconsistent. They don’t have to be. A color blind woman would date the man whose company she enjoys the most, whatever the color of his skin is. It is a good recipe for your personal happiness too.
Kaitlyn says
Wow Evan…I’m a new reader of your blog and the more I read, the more I want to keep reading!
For Lily…I was raised an Irish Catholic (not so much a practicing Catholic anymore…but I digress). When I was in my early 20’s, I dated, got into a long term relationship with and then engaged to another Irish Catholic. Match made in heaven, right? We both understood what it was like to have dozens of cousins, crazy family holidays and we both had semi-overbearing Irish Catholic mothers.
Guess what? I called off the wedding literally a few months before (and if you can appreciate calling off an Irish Catholic wedding with 2 huge Irish families…this was like stopping an avalanche)
Turns out…he and I…once we moved AWAY from our huge Irish Catholic families to another city? WE weren’t really that compatible. Our families, our upbringing…the entire ‘package’ fit…but WE didn’t.
Find someone that makes you complete and happy and let the rest of the ‘pieces’ fall into place. Religion, race, etc…that’s all icing on the cake. When you are at home alone in your house with your ‘partner’ what matters is if the two of you are content and happy with each other. At least that’s my opinion and what I’m looking for.
Steve says
Okay, so from this thread we have that Jewish mothers are overbearing, Indian mothers are overbearing and Irish mothers are overbearing. It seems like ever ethnicity believes they have the corner on eccentric parents.
SouthrnPhoenix says
@ Steve: Ha! Maybe the generalization should be that lots of mothers are overbearing, regardless of race, ethnicity, or religion. 🙂
Lily, all I can really say is go with what works for you. I don’t think you are racist or disloyal by not being attracted to Asian men. Keep an open mind about it, as you never can tell when that one Asian man will come along and sweep you off your feet. But, honestly, there is no rule in any book that says you have to date and/or marry someone you don’t find attractive on some level. You’ve kept an open mind about the “others”. If you find that fails over and over, there is nothing wrong, and everything right, about changing your tactics and trying a different method. Go ahead and date the white guy. If he’s right for you, you’ll find out, and if you are anything like me, you would hate to miss out on it because of a misguided idea that you have to date the boy next door instead even when that boy just doesn’t do it for you. I wish you luck!
Steve says
I’ve seen a lot of verbiage how many African American men date outside of their race. I’ve known a number of Indian women who do not want to hook up with Indian men. Then there is the thing with Jewish men hooking up with women who are not Jewish. I think that along with post #4 is grist for an interesting book on dating and ethnicity. I’m not a writer so anyone who is you are welcome to the idea 🙂
number says
Indian men statistically marry out more than their women in every white country on the planet
Denise says
Humans are discriminating and have preferences–there is nothing wrong with that, it’s natural. There is a concerted effort to make others feel bad (and make themselves feel better!) because we’re human and are discriminating and have preferences.
It is ALL about the content of character and NOT about the color of one’s skin in regard to judging and accepting people into your life–friends or boyfriends or husbands/wives. In regard to dating and potentially marrying…those stakes are very high and the ultimate goal is to be with someone who is of high character, mature, there’s a strong sexual chemistry, a strong friendship and a desire to commit–someone you have a PREFERENCE for.
What I would say is to really try to keep open about who might be right for you as opposed to being analytical about love, which is anything but analytical.
Good luck!
Denise says
haha, I have to laugh at the Jewish women comments. Over the past year, I have new women friends that are Jewish, and they are all ‘difficult’ in some or multiple ways. The level of difficulty determines how much time I spend with them 🙂
Karl R says
Lily said: (original post)
“I’m convinced most Asian women seek out white men because a) they are generally seen as more desirable catches by society”
And a lot of white men have a fetish for Asian women. I don’t recommend getting into a relationship where the other person is more interested in what you are than who you are.
Lily said: (original post)
“though I have dated white guys, I deliberately don’t gravitate towards them because I can’t let go of that Utopian ideal in which one day people truly will be ‘color blind.'”
I also think interracial (and intercultural) marriages are a wonderful thing. However, most of the women who share my views on family are white women from North America or Western Europe. Family tends to be a dealbreaker issue in relationships. Obviously, the lack of dealbreakers is more important to the health of a long-term relationship than a utopian ideal.
Lily said: (original post)
“White men […] won’t understand me the way that a minority, “other race” person would,”
Is it that important that you and your boyfriend have shared the same experiences? Many people have significant life experiences that weren’t shared by their spouses. The vast majority of combat veterans are male. The vast majority of rape victims are women. If they try to date people who have walked in their shoes, they’re almost guaranteed to be single for life.
Millions of men and women have married spouses who will never fully understand them. (To a certain extent, that applies to everyone.) It’s possible for your partner to be understanding even when they don’t fully understand.
I’m not sure that dating a devoted white man is the correct solution. But it doesn’t hurt to look at the whole situation differently.
Eathan says
As you know Evan, I date outside my face. I’ve never considered myself as a sell out. I’ve always put my own happiness ahead of any other social issues. I know there are people who would like to maintain family genes and their culture. Some time you have to step outside the box to find happiness. I say Evan’s advice is correct and keep searching for love, where ever that is.
Stacy says
I think we need to distinguish between religion (Jewish/Catholic) and race (White/Asian). May be its just me, but being brought up completely non-religious and having never attended any service, I really could care less about religion. After all, you could be any religion you want, this is something that you can CHOSE.
But race is the whole different story. First, we can’t change our race and decide to be white or asian or black. There’s gonna be no conversions here. Second, you kids WILL look different and will struggle with their indentity, not being fully accepted as a member of either race.
So I think it is actually better for everybody to stay within their races for those reasons..
Also, I have to say that the way some Asian women pursue white men is very annoying, but what is more annoying is how some white men aggressively go for exclusively asian women. To me it is a major red flag and it means that a guy is looking for someone who’s submissive and possibly vulnerable (like an immigrant with no support network) so that he can exert control.. signs of abusive personality. Just saying.
moonsical says
Hmmm… I hear a lot of internal conflict. Personally I am more comfortable dating within my race. I am well aware I don’t understand the culture, customs, issues, position within society, etc. For me it seems like I have enough trouble bonding with someone in the first place. I would date someone of another race if it just, “clicked,” but so far it’s presented more barriers than bonding.
What is odd is when people only want to date outside their race. I even dated someone who didn’t want to date anyone with his same eye color! That speaks to self-hatred to me, which in this case was kinda true. Hmmm…
Anyway, I agree if this gal wants to date and have a family, date who pleases you most!
~moon
JerseyGirl says
This post I totally agree with Evan on.
I’m a small blond girl from NJ. That doesn’t mean I have to date small blond men from NJ.
I think sometime’s it’s the opposites that attract us anyway.
carolyn says
I’m also an American raised Single Asian Female. There are many reasons why I prefer American white men and American Jewish men. Not only am I attracted to them, I also find them to be very caring, respectful, supportive and loving.
In traditional asian cultures, women are treated very differently. That is a fact. It would never work for me and that is why I prefer American men.
Some of these traditions and attitudes can be seen in American Asian men in various degrees. I rarely find an American Asian man that truly do not exhibit some of the traditional attitudes towards women. But when I do, I am open to dating them.
Bottom line, happiness and compatibility with my partner comes first.
Luxe says
Stacy:
“Also, I have to say that the way some Asian women pursue white men is very annoying, but what is more annoying is how some white men aggressively go for exclusively asian women. To me it is a major red flag and it means that a guy is looking for someone who’s submissive and possibly vulnerable (like an immigrant with no support network) so that he can exert control.. signs of abusive personality. Just saying.”
Why do you think Asian women pursuing white men annoying? And why do you see white men pursuing Asian women as annoying? Asian women being submissive is a misconception. Seriously, Chinese moms have a reputation for a reason. Lot of them are no way submissive! Just check out my mom! 😉
I am much like the OP. I am an Asian female in my late 20’s. I don’t share her viewpoints though. I will admit, I like white guys. I have no shame in it. I don’t like them because of social status or desireablity. It came more out of environmental changes. I was born and raised in California. Most of my friends were Asian and I always thought I would date Asian and end up with an Asian guy. I ended up moving from California to smack dab in the middle of the midwest. The city I was in, I probably saw a handful of Asians. I changed, I now like white guys more. I live in the southwest now, where there are more Asians. But not in abundance or anything. That’s just what happened. I don’t feel guilty about it. I’ve dated men of different races and each one of those relationships had different problems.
Everyone has things that they are attracted to. That includes race. Sure, going out with other minorities is easier in the sense that your cultures will be similar in some aspects. But why shut out a good guy who could be highly compatible with you just because of his race? You have to ask yourself how important race is to you. It’s not that big of an issue with me. My number #1 trait that a guy has to have is open-mindedness. That helps with any cultural differences I may have with people. That trait is something I look for in friends too.
Steve says
Stacy 11
I think we need to distinguish between religion (Jewish/Catholic) and race
Good luck.
Jews consider anyone who has a Jewish mother to be Jewish, regardless of their beliefs. A large number of western Jews do not believe what is written in the Old Testatment, or follow it, the way that even moderate Christians do. So, Judiasm is not 100% a religion.
You can’t say Judiasm is a race either, even though many European descended Jews share some physical characteristics. Contemporary biologists have been debating about doing away with the concept of “race” altogether.
You can’t even say that Judiasm is community, as many Jews belong to a number of different distinct cultures.
Evan Marc Katz says
You’ve got it backwards, Steve. Judaism isn’t “none of the above”. It’s ALL of the above.
It’s a religion – the oldest one around with only 13.2 million of us left after years of persecution and genocide.
It’s a race – there’s certainly Jewish blood and genetic characteristics.
For most of us, it’s really a culture – a heritage, a pride, a sensibility, a worldview.
As such, being Jewish in America is far closer to being black than it is to being Protestant.
It’s not wrong for Jews (or Asians or Indians) to want to marry within their own culture, especially if they feel their culture is being diluted.
The difference with Jews is that it IS being diluted and destroyed. Not so with 1 billion Indians and Chinese out there.
august says
Lol being “jewish” in america is nowhere near being black sir. Judisim is a religion. “black” is not… but being Protestant essentially is. We did not go through the same things and we are NOT treated the same way today and we don’t have organizations successfully looking out for our well being and we don’t basically own hollywood. So yeah, being jewish in america, is way closer to being a Protestant as far as Im concerned lol.
Sean says
Isn’t that because lots of Jews became secular or ran away from Israel? The place is a warzone. I can see why many don’t want to live there. But after generations and generations, all the traditions are basically lost.
Stacy says
For all its worth, i think if the OP switches to dating Asian men instead she will find a better husband at the end of the day. Why? Beacause there’s plenty of educated, well-to-do Asian guys out there and nobody wants to date them for the reason they’re… well, Asian. I went on dates with such guys – Stanford/Harvard/Goldman/Classical Music – every girl’s dream, right? Except when I pictured my kids looking like those guys – i knew there wouldn’t be a second date. So I would encourage the OP to go for it 🙂
Michael Ejercito says
@ Stacy- ” Why? Beacause there’s plenty of educated, well-to-do Asian guys out there and nobody wants to date them for the reason they’re… well, Asian.”
So how did Asians avoid becoming extinct?
Helen says
Evan, why do you allow people to post blatantly racist and offensive comments such as #17 above?
So she thinks Asians are ugly, so she won’t go for them herself, but encourages Asian women to?
And says everyone should stick to their own race?
I have to wonder if this person is simply a troll.
Helen says
Evan, apologies… I didn’t mean that as a demand to YOU. I meant it more rhetorically.
Stacy says
Luxe #15:
well, honestly, i think it’s annoying when asian girls pursue white men because of how they through themselves at those guys, it’s a hunt for them with the prize being a White Guy. There’s a lot of it in NYC. May be not so much on midwest or Cali, i don’t know. In business terms it would be called dumping 🙂 Yes, it is a competitive dating market out there.
As for guys – I explained, there’s predators out there. Being a (white)immigrant I have some experience with this type of guys. They go for foreign girls (regardless of origin really) because they think those girls would tolerate abuse and have lower standards than American girls, and no family nearby to set them straight or help them out. When I see a guy going for foreign/exotic girls exclusively, I run for my life.
Imperfect Love says
From my experience, I found that it was is easier to connect to the same race, culture, and religion. I have however dated outside of my race many times in the past year! Doesn’t mean that someone of difference is not out there. If dating is a numbers game, it would be highly probable to find connection within the same race. But we all know that chemistry and compatibility and character is also very important. It is definitely a quandry we are all in. At the end of the day, it’s your own preference and your happiness that matters. I liked Evan’s comment, yes there are a billion Chinese out there so why worry about the dilution as an Asian or many other race for that matter.
Traveling, I found that most country is very homogeneous, so I don’t think we really have to worry about losing our culture/race.
Steve says
Evan, post #18.
No disrespect.
Steve says
@Luxe #15
I had to laugh at part of your post, having several Asian women as friends who nobody would ever mistake for being submissive.
@Stacy
A lot of people have issues with mixing Caucasian and Asian blood, including Asians. I think that prejudice is a shame. I think as a group, Amerasians are some of the most attractive people on the planet. I know bigotry blinding people to something that is good, welcome to planet Earth
Sean says
I once heard this Taiwanese girl tell me that the most handsome models in Taiwan, were the half mixed American ones. It’s kind of upsetting.
Zann says
I know this is a dating blog, and I’m certainly not an expert on the racial, ethnic or religious heritage other than to know that it’s a loaded and complex subject. But when all is said and done, maybe we should start viewing the intermingling of the races and ethnicity as a healthy idea. In my opinion, the very concept of ethnic blood and terms like “deluding” are dangerous and encourage arrogance and divisiveness. Blood is blood, and it flows in all of us. If I mate with a person outside of my ethnic heritage, it doesn’t mean my children’s blood will be a “weaker” strain. The insistence on maintaining race/ethnicity purity as a defining trait has caused eons of racial tension, war and — most hideous — ethnic cleansing. At an earlier stage in human evolution, there was probably a very good reason for racial, tribal, ethnic, territorial, even spiritual loyalty, maintaining what was viewed as a “pure breed.” But we’re not race horses — can’t we just move beyond that? The more our societies mix, bleed into one another, the better our chances of surviving as a human race. Here I agree with Evan: make your choices for partners based on integrity, compatibility, communication, commitment and chemistry, regardless ethnic, racial, or religious heritage.
Zann says
Sorry, I meant to say “diluting”….not “deluding,” although that might also be applicable.
Denise says
I don’t believe Stacy is being bigoted or racist (as I’m sure that will come up too). These words are over used and not used in the right context–they have been watered down. Look up each of the words. I don’t read Stacy’s posts as being intolerant of other people’s opinions or viewpoints, she didn’t say her race is superior. She’s saying her PREFERENCE is not to have children with mixed race and/or with an Asian man. There is nothing wrong with having preferences, it’s human and we are not to feel badly about that–like the OP was strugging with.
Lily says
Hi This is the OP.
Thanks Evan for your response. It was well thought out and the parallel you draw to being Jewish/marrying Catholic is great. Stacey at #17 basically voiced what my main issue was: That the white men who are interested in me are not of the same “quality” ie: advance degrees, etc as the non white men whom I am drawn to, but wont’ commit to me. Of course, devotion and loyalty are worth more than any advance degree, and I understand that character is the most important thing in choosing a life partner, but this issue just feels a bit more complicated than that.
Also, for clarification, I did state that I didn’t have a preference for both Asian and White males, but for men of other ethnicities-Hispanic, Black,Indian,Iranian,etc.. So I am still wanting to choose to date outside of my own race.
A lot of westernized non white males who have a LOT going for them generally prefer white women. Now you can argue that perhaps these women are more accommodating, easier, gentler than than the women of their own race, but I don’t think that is necessarily true. A very successful Asian guy who scores the hot blonde is going to feel more like he is moving up in the world. People are free to have their preferences, but these preferences are often shaped by society’s values. If most people were honest, I think they would share sentiments felt by Stacey @17, though it does come across as being racist.
Within my own racial group, I am probably close to a 10 in looks. Outside my group, evaluated by western standards, I’m closer to an 8. I spent some time in Hong Kong, where I always had my pick of the best guys: accomplished, rich, very well educated, etc… etc… These guys were non westernized Asians. Now back in the US, the story is a little different. The white guys who are interested in me are not the most accomplished/richest/etc… but they are certainly decent guys. The non white westernized men who are 10’s within their racial group generally go after white women- however these white women are not 10’s- close to 8’s.
Anyways, my point, and perhaps I am looking for validation of my observations, is that in the dating market today, being white gives you more points than being non white.
Karl R says
Lily said: (#28)
“Anyways, my point, and perhaps I am looking for validation of my observations, is that in the dating market today, being white gives you more points than being non white.”
That depends on whether you’re a white man or a white woman.
OkCupid has done extensive data-mining on response rates to emails based on race:
If you look at their graphs, white men (overall) get better response rates than men of any other race. Compared to women of other races, white women come in second-to-last.
Regardless, women of any race get better response rates than men of any race.
BS says
That’s not true and it’s not what the graphs say.
black women do not get more responses than white men. It says in plain English that black women send the most but get the least responses.
i guess black women don’t fit into your definition of “women” huh
Karl R says
BS,
You may be misreading the graphs. Black women get a 34.3% response rate. All other women have a better response rate. White males get a 29.2% response rate. All other men have a worse response rate.
34.3% > 29.2% … Therefore, black women (collectively) have a better response rate than men. Even white men.
BS said:
“It says in plain English that black women send the most but get the least responses.”
That’s compared to other women, not men.
Helen says
Lily #28 – wow. I can’t say I’ve had the same experience as you at all. To clarify, there is apparently another Helen posting; I’m an older married one who is Asian and has posted several feisty comments on this blog before.
My experience is not at all what you describe: of disadvantage as an Asian when it comes to men in the US and around the world. I was thinking about it this morning, and guessing (without gloating) that being Asian has actually unfairly given me an advantage. I’m slightly above average-looking, strong, aggressive, successful. I get constant attention from men: not just strangers on the street or in restaurants, but at work, scientific meetings, etc. Before you posted again, I was considering writing a post asking other Asian women on this blog whether they had the same experience.
I probably wouldn’t have this same level of attention if I were Caucasian with all other traits the same. There is something about being Asian that sets one apart, for reasons I can’t understand. And it isn’t an expectation of a meek woman; men know without even exchanging a word with me that I’m ballsy. But I do it with a smile, with an enjoyment of their company, with pride in (or complete indifference to) my race. Maybe that’s the secret. Being so comfortable in looking “different”, in being just who you are, that you have time to enjoy the other person and focus attention on them.
To Stacy: Asian women have never needed to throw ourselves at men. They come to us. It’s just a fact: not a brag, and not even necessarily a desirable thing. I sense that you are nonetheless bitter or envious about it, so it would do to work past it and learn to be comfortable in your own skin.
Steve #24: Thank you for your thoughtful words. I completely agree.
Steve says
@Zann #25
If I remember my highschool biology correctly mutts are better than purebreads. Traits can be dominant or recessive. Bad traits tend to be recessive ( like for a genetically based disease ) and recessive traits are bred out the more people mix genetically.
Helen says
Steve #31: you’re right again. It’s called “hybrid vigor.”
Steve says
@Helen Post #32
Thanks for giving me the fancy term! It has been a few years since my last biology class :). I also remember that the reverse is true. Breeding too much within the same ( smaller ) group of people/animals will keep bad/regressive traits around and make them more prominent.
This is the inspiration for the term “blue blood” to refer to the many quarks seen in the royal families of old Europe who did a lot of in family marrying to preserve what they thought was “superior blood”.
The fetish for “pure breeding” is a tragic mistake in both animals and people.
Sayanta says
Aw man- this is SO timely! Wish I had more time to write, but Lily- I hear ya. I’m in the same position. I’m waiting for an Indian guy when men of other races are the ones that are interested in me….I’m thinking it’s time to let go.
EMK- JDate for 10 years??? damn….I’m not gonna complain about my 6 month Match membership anymore. LOL
Evan Marc Katz says
@Sayanta – Yes – on and off of JDate from 1997 to 2006. Which is why I feel qualified to talk about being single, persevering, opening up, and the the silver lining of online dating. And why it seems patently obvious that if you’ve been in love twice in your life, it seems pretty silly to expect that eHarmony should pull it off in the first two months.
Steve says
I never heard of the “Asian Fetish” thing among American Caucasian guys until a few years ago when a then new Asian American friend asked me about it. I told her that I had been attracted to Asian women, but not because they were Asian, but because they were attractive women. She then explained to me that some guys have this fetish because of the “exotic look” or the perception of these women as submissive. Once I find a woman attractive, the most important thing for me is if I enjoy talking to her. I enjoy talking, a lot. Submissive women, women who are shy about their opinion who I have to work to draw out drive me nuts( OTOH, ballbusters are no fun either ).
Steve says
I know a few Indian women who will not date Indian men, citing that they are extremely chauvinistic and treat women like second class citizens. Several East Asian women have mentioned having problems with East Asian men, as a group, with stating why.
I would be curious to know.
Yes, I know you will be generalizing and I will not take your opinions as being true for everyone.
If you dare, thanks 🙂
Luxe says
I certainly don’t feel disadvantaged in the dating scene at all. This is probably because I’m really comfortable in my own skin. Race is not an issue with me nor do I make it an issue with anyone else. I am who I am. My characteristics make up more of who I am then my race. When it comes down to it, all people within all races has the same characteristics. We’re all stubborn, intelligent, nice, mean, patient, funny, lazy etc. What the difference comes in is culture.
In the end, you have to be comfortable with who you are. Race is only an issue if you make it one. I look at people and myself as who they are, not what race they are. It breaks down your own boundaries that you have. If you shut down a very compatible white guy because he is not of an “other” race, then you aren’t looking at people for who they really are. That is a shame. You want a type of racial “utopia,” but I think you are going in reverse with your mindset.
Helen says
Luxe #37: Bingo. You’ve got it exactly right – race is only an issue if you make it one, and the most attractive trait by far is to be comfortable with yourself and to let it radiate out of you. I bet you’ve got swarms of men around you too. 🙂
Sayanta says
well…the thing is, it’s not so simple sometimes. I mean, I want a guy who’ll go with me to temples, to India, and generally follow Eastern religious thought and customs- so that limits me to men of my own race, BUT I don’t get along with men of my own race. LOL For the reasons other posters have stated.
A-L says
RE: Lily’s #28
In the Women Are Racist thread, I think most people agreed with your theory that whites have an advantage in the dating market, at least in the interracial dating market. So now that you’ve been validated, what do you do next? As Luxe, Helen, and others have said the key is being comfortable in your skin, and with who you are. If someone does (or does not) want to date you because of the color of your skin, then that’s a reflection on them, not you. Just go on enjoying your life, and hang out with those who make you happier (regardless of race).
RE: Karl’s #30
Thanks for the link. Interesting, though a bit depressing.
RE: Steven & Helen (#31-33)
Thanks for raising the point of the mutts (aka, hybrid vigor). Also, if you lined up everyone up by the color of skin from an albino to the blackest person, there would be no way of dividing up where one “race” starts and the next one ends. So the whole labeling issue is rather moot anyway.
RE: Steve’s #36
I suspect that the issue that some women have with East Asian men, South Asian men, African men, Latin American men, Middle Eastern men, etc, is that men from these countries (or their American-born children who were raised with those same beliefs) tend to believe that the man is the head of the family, that what he says goes, and that the woman should follow his lead. I’m not saying that all men from these areas are this way, but a lot of them are, which gives many women caution when thinking about dating them.
RE: Sayanta’s #39
I know non-Indian guys who are all into Eastern beliefs, would be happy to go to your temples, and would love to visit India. So if that’s why you’re desirous of finding an Indian guy (though it’s interesting how your thoughts on this issue have changed over the last year), I think it’s possible to find those qualities with a non-Indian as well.
Goldie says
Stacy #11, wow. Just freakin WOW. So, all Asian women are submissive. What else? All Blacks are violent, all Eastern European are drunks, all American men are obese couch potatoes, all American women don’t know how to boil an egg. Thanks for straightening it out. I was wondering if people around me are individuals or walking ethnic stereotypes.
“Second, your kids WILL look different and will struggle with their identity, not being fully accepted as a member of either race.”
Say what? Even in my backwoods Midwestern area, no one is shocked when they see an interracial kid anymore. Last I heard, we even have one in the White House 😉 I would like to welcome you to the 21st century 🙂
With that said, as an immigrant, I do encounter this attitude in some of the men I date. Every once in a while, a guy will look down on me or stereotype me because I wasn’t born here. Just another thing I try to look out for and terminate the relationship as soon as I catch this attitude in a guy, because at this point, it’s pretty much a given that things are not going to work out between us.
Helen says
Sayanta #39, I completely agree with A-L #41. There are so many non-native Indian men who are interested in learning and adopting Eastern philosophies and lifestyles. And they would be especially motivated to do so if the woman they loved (you) were Indian. Would you consider such guys, even if they were non-native Indian?
A-L #40: you are so right about the spectrum of colors. Race is an artificial construct. You’ve probably also heard the statistic about how Obama and Palin’s family trees are connected from a surprisingly small number of generations back in time.
You made an interesting point about men of other cultures tending to believe in men being the head of the household… do you really think it is MORE that way in these groups than it is among white men, in general?
Ava says
Denise #8
Over the past year, I have new women friends that are Jewish, and they are all ‘difficult’ in some or multiple ways. The level of difficulty determines how much time I spend with them
Please tell me you are kidding.
Stacy #17
If you couldn’t picture your kids looking part Asian, why did you bother to go out in the first place? What a waste of that person’s time.
Oh, and Smiley faces at the end of bigoted sentences doesn’t dilute their bigotry.
Is it any surprise that the dominant race and gender in this culture holds the most cards in dating as well?
Helen says
Goldie #42: What? You mean, I’m not a walking ethnic stereotype? I’m not submissive? I don’t hurl myself at the feet of white men? 🙂 (Ha ha, I agree with your sentiments exactly.)
Lily, reading back over your original post: you are thinking way too much about race. As A-L and I have said before: go for the person with whom you feel compatible, which you have indicated has been true for at least 2 white guys that you let go in the past. Don’t judge the guys based on their race. Remember that ideally, you will spend your lifetime with this guy. Race is not the important deciding factor, but the compatibility of personalities, kindness, consideration, and the willingness to make the two of you as a partnership work. That could be a white guy in your case. Don’t knock him.
Denise says
Ava, I guess the ‘haha’ and the smiley face didn’t convey my lightheartedness about my female Jewish FRIENDS…doesn’t take away from the observation I’ve had, but people are who they are and I accept them for who they are. Doesn’t mean some of my other non-Jewish friends aren’t ‘difficult’…just something myself and another friend have noticed. Heck, some people might say I’m difficult!
I like to chuckle about the human experience, including myself when it’s appropriate. Sounds like we might have different approaches to life and expressing opinions, and that’s okay.
I also think a review of the word Bigot (which actually does have a true meaning) might be good:
dictionary.com: a person who is INTOLERANT of any ideas other than his or her own, esp on religion, politics, or race
Ava says
Denise #46
You’re right, I should have used the term “prejudiced” instead, “unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, esp. of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or nationalgroup.(dictionary.com)
And you are right, although I have a pretty good sense of humor, prejudice isn’t something I find “lighthearted” or amusing.
Ava says
That should have read: “unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, esp. of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.”
Denise says
And who defines unreasonable? I didn’t feel or express any HOSTILITY…so prejudiced doesn’t seem to apply here either. It was an opinion, an observation based on true life experience–those would be better descriptions I believe. One can agree or disagree with another’s opinion or observation, or hold another opinion/observation. Because there is is disagreement does not require name calling or, HOSTILITY.
(BTW, the original comment was based on what I read from Evan’s comments/opinion about wanting to date a Jewish girl and the reasons he and his buddines indicated why they may not want to.)
Goldie says
I have to admit, I, too, shook my head at comment #8 when I first saw it. Hate to tell you this Denise, but, unless you’re Eric Cartman, you cannot pull off this kind of joke and no amount of “haha”s and smiley faces will make it lighthearted. Also I’m confused, if in #46 you pretty much say that you and a good number of your friends are all difficult – well then you just tend to hang out with difficult girls – fine by me, but what does being Jewish have to do with it? Also, way to talk about your friends behind their back with “another friend”, then post it on a public website. Aren’t you afraid they may stumble upon your comment some day?
Denise says
Hmmmm, Evan says that Jewish women are ‘…highly demanding, highly unrealistic in their expectataions’. Evan says that “we’re kindof difficult”, meaning men and women, and he wanted easy.
They are still great girls with GOOD CHARACTER, they are just a little ‘difficult’ (guess I should have said LITTLE) It wasn’t a joke, for the third time, it was an observation of my recent experiences coupled with Evan’s assertions noted above.
Do you think that they don’t know they are ‘difficult’? I didn’t say anything that I wouldn’t say to them.
Whatever…
Sayanta says
You know what’s weird- when I read that interviewer’s generalization about Jewish guys, the first thing I thought was “That’s the perfect descript of every Indian guy I know!” The funny thing is, I get along great with Jewish guys- I wonder, do people just act weird with people of their own race? LOL
A-L says
RE: Helen’s #43
You made an interesting point about men of other cultures tending to believe in men being the head of the household… do you really think it is MORE that way in these groups than it is among white men, in general?
I can only speak to the relationships that I’ve seen at close hand. But the marriages I’ve seen with American men have been more equitable than those with most foreign men. Equitable meaning that the men will help with housework, the children, etc, and that the women have have a say in how the family spends money, where they go on vacations, etc. Not to say that everything is split 50-50, but it’s not 90/10, 95/5, or 100/0.
And this is not necessarily an issue of the man’s color, but his upbringing. My sister is married to a black American and it’s a fairly equitable relationship. My mother was married to a black Caribbean man, and it was a very inequitable one. So it’s really more of a culture issue, though as always there are exceptions to every generality.
But when I’ve spoken to children of other immigrant families, I would say this is a definite trend that we’ve noticed, in comparison to my friends who were raised by 2 American parents.
Stacy says
After reading the slew of comments here all I can say is WOW, people. There’s definitely something to be said about projecting what you deep down inside hate about yourself onto others and hating it in them.
Helen #19: So she thinks Asians are ugly, so she won’t go for them herself, but encourages Asian women to?
I never said they are “ugly” – you said that. I meant they were different from me. I am a tall blond with blue eyes. So is my entire family. But they are not different from the way the OP looks, not that radically at least. So this shouldn’t be an issue, right? Unless of course, you really think that that is “ugly”.
Goldie #42:
So, all Asian women are submissive. What else? All Blacks are violent, all Eastern European are drunks, all American men are obese couch potatoes, all American women don’t know how to boil an egg
Again, I didn’t say that, you did. What I said is that there’s a perception about them being submissive, and as such Asian women are sought after by guys who want that. Steve in #35 said exactly the same thing. I am sure that we can’t generalize about Asian women (or any race) being submissive or assertive, it has to do with the nurture and social development, not race.
And Goldie, I am an immigrant myself from the same part of the world as you. When it comes to inter-cultural dating, stereotypes and mixed identities I know what I am talking about.
Ava #44
If you couldn’t picture your kids looking part Asian, why did you bother to go out in the first place? What a waste of that person’s time.
Because I like keeping my mind open. And when I see a great guy and I like him – why not? My college boyfriend was Asian. But once I realized it was a major deal breaker for me, I stopped.
Oh, and Smiley faces at the end of bigoted sentences doesn’t dilute their bigotry.
Perhaps, you need to review the meaning of the words you are throwing around.
Goldie says
Yah, I’m afraid Evan walked right into that one when he said “we’re kind of difficult”. I agree, it can be taken like an invitation to reply with: “yeah, you know what, you guys are kind of difficult indeed!” which will, of course, open a whole new can of worms.
This is why I’m pretty leery of making jokes about my own ethnicity/heritage myself. Coming from me, it’s cute and self-deprecating, and, since it’s my ethnicity, I technically can make these jokes… but I really don’t feel like I should, especially in front of people who are not of the same heritage, and so cannot answer with the same without coming off as insulting.
My kids went through this phase where they went around telling Jew jokes, because they felt they could. Eventually they stopped. I think there was a Seinfeld episode about this, even.
This is a pretty heated subject. Wonder how long the thread will get.
C. says
Stacy, the sentence “Except when I pictured my kids looking like those guys” just sounds offense. Actually any commenting using the term “those people” is automatically going to stir up some feelings. Maybe it IS projecting, but that is only because we people of minority races have heard stuff like this so much before, and it hurts.
I myself am mixed race and I totally disagree with your assertion that we “struggle with their indentity, not being fully accepted as a member of either race”. I’ve never thought of so negatively..if anything I LOVE being a member of two very interesting and distinct cultures, and never felt vilified by either of my families. Yes it sometimes feels like a dual identity, but perhaps I never struggled so much because both my parents loved me and neither became obsessed with whether I looked like one over the other..which brings me to this:
You want to be a mom for what seems like the most vain (and wrong) reason: for a “mini-me”. What if you do have a child that doesn’t turn out “like you”, regardless of race? What if s/he has a deformity? What if s/he is overweight? What if s/he turns out gay? What if you fall in love with a man who already has a kid and wants you to love it like your own? What about adopted children?
I really think you need to evaluate your reasons for wanting children. Please, for the child’s sake.
C. says
Regarding the “white guys who like asian girls” thing, I am friends with quite a few couples of this mix. I would not call any of my asian girl friends submissive at all, but they are definitely all beautiful. I think the attraction to them is mostly superficial at first, and then the couples become attached to personality. I have heard one of my guy friends say he liked asian girls because they tend to be (and stay) slender and their skin ages well.
I also know tall blue-eyed white guys (like my dad) who prefer short and curvy dark girls (like my mom) so I think its just a matter of personal preference. I love that we can live in a culture that accepts the love of two people despite their cultural differences.
Goldie says
Apologize in advance for double-commenting, but I just thought of something re: last comment from Stacy.
“And Goldie, I am an immigrant myself from the same part of the world as you. When it comes to inter-cultural dating, stereotypes and mixed identities I know what I am talking about.”
You know, this actually explains a lot. Back in the old country 😉 people used to make way too big of a deal of the ethnicity/race issue. Forget race, even, everyone was white and people still managed to get hung up on the issue. Everyone knew everyone else’s ethnicity and dated/married strictly within our own. When I (Jewish/Polish mix) married my ex (Russian), both our families were freaking out, and friends and relatives were all wondering if it was possible for such a wildly international marriage to work 😀 And yeah, a lot of people were asking us how our children would identify. Well I’m happy to report that my children (in high school now) both identify themselves as Americans of mixed heritage. They enjoy learning about their ancestry, but on the whole their ethnicity is just an interesting fact to them – a conversation piece – not a huge, life-defining factor that they have to build their whole world around. I love this about their generation – these kids are totally color-blind 😀
AS says
@Sayanta 52 — As an Indian American woman, I think that the discomfort may come from expectations. When considering Indian woman, Indian men have more defined expectations for who they *think* you are: you speak Hindi, you can cook Indian food, you want to go to the temple, you will wear a sari to a social event, etc. Whether those things are true or not, it is always awkward to begin a relationship with someone who has preconceived notions in that way.
As a *very* westernized Indian (I don’t speak Hindi, I don’t cook, I don’t practice any religion, and I don’t even OWN a sari), I have found that non-Indian men (be they white, Persian, Hispanic, etc.) don’t have as much of a preconceived notion of WHO I will be as Indian men. It allows a relationship to be built without the same types of expectations. For some, I think there is comfort in expectations – an understanding of “this is who you’re getting, this is who I am getting” … but for me, I feel as though I am disappointing by not being a “properly” Indian woman. Even for a woman who is more “properly” Indian than myself, I would imagine that having the freedom to not have expectations of how you’ll be in a relationship from the get-go is liberating.
Helen says
Stacy, of course you are welcome to your viewpoints, and welcome to share your viewpoints. No one has a problem with that. It is when you start making pronouncements about what everyone else should do – such as how we should all stick to our own races, we shouldn’t have biracial children, we should all behave a certain way around men – that these posts seem unbearably smallminded and foolish. Frankly, you are not qualified to give this kind of “advice” to the masses.
C, thanks for your intelligent viewpoints – especially about children. As a mom, I can say that you’re spot-on.
C. says
Thanks Helen! And sorry to everyone for all the typos that I’m noticing now that I re-read my post..I wrote real fast without proof-reading :p
Goldie, your kids sound cool! I agree, so many kids are mixed now they don’t seem to be troubled by it. Its great to learn about family backgrounds and I can understand some families not wanting to lose their heritage BUT I think bringing in a spouse of a different background can ENRICH the family…and ALL children are beautiful! Dare I say the mixed ones are extra cute 😉
Ava says
Stacy
<<Perhaps, you need to review the meaning of the words you are throwing around.>>
You can split hairs with me about the meaning of words such as bigotry and prejudice, but what ever you want to call it, it may be construed as offensive. Of course, you are entitled to your opinions, but don’t be surprised if they are seen as offensive.
Helen says
Well, C #61, I would certainly agree. I have two mixed ones of my own. And yes, it’s awesome that there are more gorgeous “mutts” everywhere in the US, not the least reason of which is hybrid vigor and increasing cross-cultural acceptance. Historically, wherever cultures have successfully blended, arts and music and science and trade have flourished.
Sayanta says
AS-
Great to see a sister on here! 🙂 You’ve made a great point- I guess I’m guilty of the same thing…I always go in with preconceived notions about the men in our culture, and therefore I’m not as relaxed or receptive around them. It’s hard to change this though!
Nancy says
Evan, I do not agree that Judaism is a race. Please! Ashkenazi Jews are white, Sephardics are Hispanic, and the Ethopian Jews are black. I am Jewish and am divorcing my Jewish husband of over twenty years. I date a lot and have come to the conclusion that Jewish guys are not for me. They are usually successful and with that comes arrogance and that is one quality I will not have in a boyfriend/spouse. I am finished having children so the question of how they will be raised is no longer an issue. BTW, the worst dates I have had have been with Jewish lawyers and doctors.
Adrienne says
@ Stacy 11 – “But race is the whole different story. First, we can’t change our race and decide to be white or asian or black. There’s gonna be no conversions here. Second, you kids WILL look different and will struggle with their indentity, not being fully accepted as a member of either race.”
Oh bologna! I’m the product of a white mother and father who is ‘technically’ multi-racial (black, Irish, Cherokee Indian) — I’m 37. Do the math. That’s just a side-step way to say you would never be attracted to a person of another skin tone (dark faces, light faces, tan faces, brown faces, etc. etc.) because of their skin color. That is your prerogative to feel that way, but just say it and own it! 😉 In case you haven’t noticed — black/white/multi-racial people grow up to become the President of the United State of America. ß- That alone validates my parents’ PRO-active choice marry the person they had fallen in love with in the late 60’s — and the make a conscious decision to bring to children in the world who are successful, self-actualized adults. Just own your own bias and leave me and others like me out of it. Unless you come from mixed family — you cannot understand as it is impossible to have walked in our shoes. And I don’t want to read any nonsense about your cousin’s, uncles, twice removed aunt’s childhood best friend’s experiences. Unless it is you personally? First-hand accounts of what you perceive of other’s just shows blatant ignorance.
At the original poster — I think you need to step outside of the box and really look at the bubble of men around you that are interested in you. The ones that find you charming and whose heart’s you capture. This actually doesn’t mean you are color-blind — it actually forces you to LOOK at them and see them for the unique individual they are – skin tone and all. 😉 I’ve dated ‘everything’. I’ve never once felt guilt about ‘turning my back’ on black or white men — when I’ve dated Japanese, Israeli, Vietnamese, Latino or Hispanic men.
What I HAVE had a guilt about? Not dating American men. . . i.e. potentially marrying outside of my Nationality (sorry my dad was Green Beret/Military officer so I grew up in a hyper patriotic home). Because it automatically means I’m bringing someone home to the long line of Military Officers I come from that could not have possibly served in the U.S Military and preferably of the Race called Army Green.
See — I went at Stacy but even for a ‘mixed race’ person who is accepted as an individual by those that actually matter in my life but . . . I have this *thing* that I’ve allowed to be held over me. . . The military culture that I was expected to marry into. But here’s the thing . . . I don’t live a mile from a base. I do live in Central NJ and have access to men from CT down to Philly. In this area is a great diversity of cultures, races, religions, just — eh? Fantastic people to further the boundaries of my world. I would be stoooopid to limit myself to ‘one’ criteria above all others. I’ve also learned that I’m a maximizer and have always had a fear that . . . something better might come along.
Are you sure that it’s not that concept? That you fear something better (be it race, religion, earning capability, education, etc. etc.) might come along that ‘fits the mold you expected’? What happens if Mr. Perfect shows up but he grew up on a Llama farm in Peru? Or on vineyard in France? Or on a Kibbutz in Israel? He’s perfect for YOU in every single way and expands your heart to the deepest depths of tenderness . . . but he doesn’t fit your ‘image’? Are you going to let that go?
Sometimes for minority women we simply have to take the ‘façade’ out of the equation. I know many many African American single women — and that’s what they’ve done. Could you? Because if you can’t — don’t date someone with a different skin tone. It will always be there between the lines of the two of you.
Now all of that said, I’ve found love . . . and I kind of heard on ‘accident’ – that I can stop chasing that guy Harry Winston and his girlfriend Tiffany. Most likely on Thanksgiving when he’s going home with me to meet my parents. *insert sneaky giggle — he doesn’t realize just how MUCH Italian I’ve learned from Rosetta Stone* But he’s not the façade I expected him to show up in. I wanted someone well traveled, attractive to me, and with a global approach to his world. I assumed this man would be military or former military, in a global line of business with a degree from West Point and advanced degree from Harvard. Notice: No physical appearance other than ‘attractive to me’.
What I got when I put it out to the universe was a stocky guy from Italy, never married no kids. He’s an artist trained in Florence who has show his work from Japan, to Brazil, to NYC, to Berlin, etc. etc. He’s lived on 4 different continents and speaks 6 languages. He owns an iron art business that is very successful to boot. He didn’t even finish high school let alone go to college though he did serve in the Italian marines.
If you had told me 10 years ago that I would be marrying a man from Italy, stocky, losing his hair, without a formal education and that is atheist? I would have told you — eh? You’re nuts. But now? No one, regardless of their skin tone, ethnicity, religions, or nationality: Could. Ever. Take. His. Place. In. My. Heart. I didn’t settle on what I wanted — It just showed up differently than how I thought it would.
Please, don’t shut your heart off to a beautiful, beautiful love based upon the tone of a man’s skin. It’s just skin. If you get caught in a fire, the hospital treats you the same way it does a man with light skin. 😉
Stacy says
@C #56 – why on earth did it sound offensive to you? “Those” was used to refer to the specific guys I dated. What do you think the proper English here should be??? Jeez!
Goldie says
Stacy #67, oh the English was proper alright.
“…there’s plenty of educated, well-to-do Asian guys out there and nobody wants to date them for the reason they’re… well, Asian. I went on dates with such guys — Stanford/Harvard/Goldman/Classical Music — every girl’s dream, right? Except when I pictured my kids looking like those guys — i knew there wouldn’t be a second date.”
I’m trying to read the above in any way possible other than to mean “I don’t want my kids to look Asian”… nope, I got nothing. If you meant to say something else, can you say what it was, because I’m out of guesses?
Also, Stanford/Harvard/Goldman/Classical Music in and of itself does not an every girl’s dream make. It sounds to me as though your selection criteria are a tad off. Have you considered signing up for Evan’s courses? 😉
Evan Marc Katz says
Enough with this “racist” sniping. Stacy’s not a racist. She just doesn’t want Asian kids. Seriously. I’m not running a politically correct site here, so let’s keep it that way, okay?
Helen says
Goldie #68, agreed. That paragraph you highlighted is offensive to the extreme. I can’t help thinking that the mindset of anyone who would make such a statement is astonishingly coarse – not just because of the racist undertones, but also because of the assumption of what makes a girl’s dream man. All labels, nothing about the man’s character.
Chris says
It’s funny how not every group ever gets stuck with the “sellout” label. White Christians who outmarry are never dubbed sellouts, except by the tiny racist fringe. Black men and Indian men who marry white women are often dubbed sellouts, black women less often so. Jewish men who marry white Christians are sometimes called sellouts, Jewish women less so. Asian men are called sellouts less often than Asian women are. Muslim women come closer than probably any other group to facing a total lack of intermarriage acceptance, but Muslim men find high acceptance of this practice.
The use of the “sellout” label reflects power relations. It reflects whose opposite-sex cogroupists still have dating options.
Lily says
Evan @ 70,
I’m really glad that you are not running a politically correct site and that people are free to express their true sentiments. I have a beautiful, tall slender blonde friend who fell in love and married a short, stocky, not that great looking hispanic/black guy. She is now 40, but had met this guy when she was only 19. She can’t imagine living life without him, but has confessed that she does not want to have children because they most likely will end up looking more like him than her and she doesn’t want them to struggle in life because of their looks.
Stacy says
Goldie #68
I don’t think you understood what C meant. I understand the negative connotation of the expression “those people”, only in my post that wasn’t the context, it was the reference to the particular 2 guys. As to me not wanting Asian kids – yes, that is exactly what I said. How’s me wanting or not wanting something that concerns my body and my family exclusively offensive to anybody? Is wanting “Jewish kids” or a “black household” or a “Christian family” equally offensive in your mind? That is completely out of whack. People DO want those things, welcome to the real world.
Goldie #58
I agree with you on this, you’re right. All I can say – your kids are lucky that they live in the US, and you know exactly what I mean by that. They’re not mixed race though, so their mixed ethnic background is becoming irrelevant. But you know that it would be a completely different story in Poland, or anywhere else in Europe. Ethnicity in Europe is what race is in the US – a major differentiating factor, so don’t compare your all-european looking kids to mixed race kids in the States.
Goldie says
Okay, re #70, I’ve got to ask or else curiosity will kill me. What happened to stepping out of one’s comfort zone and giving different people a chance?
I have a theory that people subconsiously pick a partner that they want their future kids to look like. This is how a lot of people I know ended up with very good-looking kids, (I use the term good-looking rather than cute, because most of those kids are out of high school). They’re no longer married to those kids’ fathers, but hey. The kids are gorgeous.
Then again, I have a very pretty mom and a nerdy-looking dad. Throughout my childhood and early teens, I looked exactly like my dad. I remember feeling extremely bitter towards my mom for having married my dad and getting me stuck with his looks 🙂 I look okay now (probably more than okay), I inherited a lot of good qualities from both my parents, and whatever I went through in childhood because of my looks, was a character-building experience that I am thankful for. Don’t let this factor stop you, people 🙂 All things considered, your kids would rather exist than not exist 😉
Stacy says
Helen #69
So let’s review. The OP in her original letter said “To be blunt, I’m convinced most Asian women seek out white men because ….. (b) they want their children to have as many advantages as possible in life — infusing some “European” blood in the mix”
So I gather that this statement doesn’t strike you as racist since you didn’t comment on that. I.e. it is OK for a non-white person to want kids with a white person to “improve blood”, but it is NOT Ok for a white person to want the same for the same reason?? How do you do it in your head? Seriously, get over yourself.
Helen says
Evan #70, re: your 2nd sentence, aside from the previous paragraph, there were also the gems about how we should all stick to our own races, and how Asian women throw ourselves at white men. “Not a racist”, eh? Well, we can agree to disagree.
Lily, it’s rather amazing that your friend would say such things about someone she loves. She also needs a bit of a reality check. It’s perfectly fine not to want children. But for the reasons she purportedly stated? On what basis would she believe that the children would look more like him? You’d be amazed how randomly genes assort themselves, and can produce offspring even more beautiful than either parent. Even if they did look like him, that doesn’t mean that they’d struggle in life because of their looks. HE managed fine… unless you count marrying a spouse who tells her friends that she doesn’t want her kids to look like him. Ouch.
At most, looks can get you in the door. After that, it’s character that matters.
Goldie says
I promise I’m going to stop flooding this thread, right after this…
Stacy #73:
” Ethnicity in Europe is what race is in the US — a major differentiating factor, so don’t compare your all-european looking kids to mixed race kids in the States.”
Actually, I live in the Midwest, and people still frown on you here if you’re a different ethnicity/heritage than they, no matter how white you are. There was an article in the news a few weeks ago about a high school in a county next to ours, where a girl was bullied to the point where she killed herself, for being Croatian and speaking with an accent. She was as european-looking as they come. My kids got nasty comments about their heritage a few times, but they’re boys and know how to fight, so the comments stopped pretty much as soon as they started.
Still, this is something I have to deal with on a daily basis. I’d say on an average day, 10% of the people I meet will think that I’m mentally challenged because I have an accent. 5% will think I’m their childhood Cold War scare come to life to nuke them and their families. (One guy I met at a social function once, spent two hours telling me how he was afraid of Russians growing up, all the movies he’d seen on the subject, all the books he’d read. Two hours. I kid you not.) 5% will think I’m exotic. And just about everyone I meet will think that I am not one of them and never will be. This is especially true of the older generations (my age and older) and of more conservative neighborhoods. It complicates the dating process a lot. I do not see how this is different from the way people look at other races and interracial kids in your area. I find both attitudes pretty despicable. We as a society need to grow out of it. This way it’ll at least be an easier experience for our children when they grow up. If we continue believing that each should stick to their own and teach that to our kids, then, yeah, 30 years from now interracial children will still have a hard time being accepted.
BTW I dated an Asian guy, long ago, for a couple of years. It’s a long story, we were both married and I don’t like talking about it, but for the sake of this topic I’m bringing it up. It was a good time (if you don’t count the being married part). He didn’t weird me out with his Asianness at all 🙂 I never even noticed that he was different. It ended for reasons that had nothing to do with his race.
Ava says
Stacy #75
You misunderstand. It’s not that “white blood” makes someone a “better” person, it’s that being PERCEIVED as “more” Caucasian gives a person more advantages, because Caucasians (read:male Caucasians) have generally received more advantages in our culture. As the OP says, “they are generally seen as more desirable catches by society.” Although when she uses the phrase “physiological advantages”, I’m not sure what she means or if she is using the term correctly.
C. says
@ 70, Evan I assure you these are very real feelings for us, not just some PC thing. And I’m really curious what you DO consider racist, if its not someone who insists on “everybody to stay within their races”.
@ 73 Stacy, I’m not sure what you mean by this: “I understand the negative connotation of the expression “those people”, only in my post that wasn’t the context, it was the reference to the particular 2 guys. As to me not wanting Asian kids — yes, that is exactly what I said.”
So, first you say its not Asians you don’t want your kids to look like, just those 2 particular guys..but then you say it is indeed that you don’t want Asian kids. Sorry, but those two sentences totally contradict each other.
“How’s me wanting or not wanting something that concerns my body and my family exclusively offensive to anybody? Is wanting “Jewish kids” or a “black household” or a “Christian family” equally offensive in your mind?”
Look, I don’t have a problem with you or others wanting these things. I DO have a problem with you saying that WE SHOULD ALL stick to our “own”. And the insinuation that you wouldn’t accept your OWN child just because s/he looks like the man you supposedly love (this goes for Lily’s friend @72 too) simply shocks and disturbs me. (sorry Evan, maybe growing up in a mixed family has sheltered me from this type of thinking, but this is how I feel deeply). This is not the “real world” that I know. I personally have dark features opposite of my dad’s light ones but he loves me to pieces anyway. That’s my real world, and I know I’m not alone because I know many other happy people of mixed blood. Within my own family there are many mixes–jewish/catholic, white/mexican, mexican/asian, mexican/black..the running joke we have is “Mexican families take anyone!” 😉
@75 I think you’ve misrepresented the OP..she is not defending the thought process she is “convinced” other Asians have. Sounds like she sees it as outdated as I do! BUT I agree with Evan in his response to her, which is date who you want, which in her case they are non-asians.
Personally, (and I’ll throw you a bone here) after dating “everyone” myself I do tend to be attracted to white atheists or Jewish boys, because I find that asians tend to be conservative and blacks and hispanics tend to be christian and less educated. That’s not what I want in a PARTNER; it has nothing to do with blood or looks, instead its the society that brought them up. A child on the other hand, I would be over the moon to have no matter what color. I’m currently dating an guy of Irish descent (who looks nothing like me) and if we end up together I would adore a kid that looked like my guy! That said, since I’m in my 30s and my best child-bearing years are behind me I’m beginning to consider adoption may be in my future, and I’d be happy to invite a black or hispanic or asian child in my life. Kids don’t “struggle in life” simply because of their race. Kids struggle in life when their parents don’t love them.
Just sharing my perspective.
Helen says
C, Goldie, brava to you both. I couldn’t agree more. Well, we can’t change anyone’s minds, but at least we can suggest that attempting to prescribe something for the general populace (such as sticking to their own races) is inappropriate, to put it mildly.
Goldie, you seem to have had the most interesting life experiences. Wish I could have coffee with you and talk about life.
C, according to another of your posts, you’re in your very early 30s… no need to worry about being beyond childbearing years!
C. says
Heh, you’re right Helen I am only 31, but I have the whole “well we need at least a year before we move in together and then we need a couple years together before marriage and what if it doesn’t work out with this guy and then I’m back to the beginning” paranoia…but that’s for another thread! ;P
Shari says
I am a 53 year old woman raised Jewish but totally non-religious. Couldn’t get me into a synagogue if Denzel Washington was appearing for one day only (more on that in a moment). For me similar values are and have always been key, not race or religion, etc. For some people finding similar values means same religion but not always. Being not religious for me the key was always finding someone else who is similarly non-religious, regardless of which religion they were raised in. My ex-husband, white, was as non-religiously methodist as I was non-religiously Jewish.
Fast forward 26 years..after divorce and starting to date again, I go online and open myself up to any race. After 2 months I notice that 80% of the men contacting me are black. No exaggeration! I had to look at it and wonder what was up when I said race didn’t matter. After 3 months of dating I concluded that it was partially appearance (I weighed 40 more lbs then and black men are happy with women with “meat on the bone”) but even more important values, interests and attitude. The black men didn’t care as much if I was strong and independent — their (often single parent) mothers had been and they were not put off by it. In addition the music I like, my world view, and other interests were in line with black men for the most part.
Finally when someone opens themselves up to an interracial relationship it means you are open as a person to learning and someone who has life experience different than yours and de facto are a tolerant person. That’s who I am and who I want to be with. So after three months, game over. I stopped dating any men except black men and started posting on interracial web sites. Now 4 years later I am even more certain it was the right decision for me. I’ve lost a couple friends over dating outside my race – not friends I want to keep. And yes — they still need to be non-religious too. 🙂
Shari
Katarina Phang says
I’m Asian and I know a lot of white guys are attractive to me. My new beau (white with a fraction of Cree Indian blood) was married to Asian and is seemingly largely attracted to Asian women. He’s crazy about me and I feel lucky to have met such a doting handsome man.
This is why, according to him: Asian women have beautiful, smooth, soft, tight skin and stay that way for a long time (I know my skin is exceptionally soft), keep their appearance slender for much of their lives, feminine, *warning* has the sweetest, tastiest, tightest “womanhood” 😀 -again, I won’t know for sure but can only speak for myself it’s true LOL!-…and of course the perception of “maintaining their traditional family values.” I heard it too many times from American white men how American women have lost their feminine values -their womanness-, that they forgot on how to be a woman.
Feminine values are not meant to be construed as being “submissive” because we are not, for the most part (especially if we’re educated, etc). We perhaps are just better in “positioning ourselves” vis a vis to our men, to make them feel special or good being a man. That’s actually far from being submissive, more aptly “astute” and understanding of men’s psychology of wanting/needing to be in charge (little did he know we are actually the neck that sustains and moves the head, without us they’re dysfunctional 🙂 ).
Katarina Phang says
Typo: I meant to say “a lot of white guys are ATTRACTED to me” (well…I find them attractive too, of course).
Chris says
The superiority complex that exclusively interracial daters have and their condemnations as “intolerant” of people who date within their group are highly annoying.
For some people similarity of background counts and there’s nothing wrong with it. All people want their children to be what they consider good looking and there’s nothing wrong with that either.
If you want to exclusively date people of a certain group, whether yours or not, that’s fine, but it’s only slightly better than a guy refusing to date women above a certain BMI and it’s exactly like women having minimum heights. But, if the opposite sex members of your group don’t have the options you have don’t expect them to be unreservedly delighted when you intermarry. When you intermarry and do much, much more to accept your partner’s culture than he or she does to accept yours don’t expect everyone from your group to be delighted when you convert or when your children have names which your parents had never heard of.
Denise says
#85
Well said Chris…it’s each individual’s preference and there’s no need to become hostile or call people names because of those preferences, OR if those preferences are different. If one becomes ‘offended’ because of someone else, that’s their boundary issue, not the person who is going about their life, making the best decisions for them.
Katarina Phang says
I think Stacy’s comments are mostly off the mark, if not offensive. Fact is most kids of mixed races (white and non-white/asian) are better looking than just white/asian. That’s part of the reasons, I think, of why a lot of us are interested in marrying outside our race.
And wow, which century are we in now that you’re still so concerned that you’re no longer a full blooded person in either of your family’s sides? Why is it a problem? I don’t think it is for most half-breed Asian-white kids. If anything, it gives them a lot of advantage. In Asian countries, they become top models/actresses SIMPLY because of their looks.
Lily’s experience is kinda “new” to me too. Asian and white guys alike (or even black, hispanics, etc) find me attractive. You don’t become less attractive in your own race if you are attractive in general, though I must say ESPECIALLY among white guys who have “yellow fever” I’m a dream girl for them. And I’m not quite sure the 10 Asian male is mainly after white girls. I guess, they have more choice in the matter because of their looks, not necessarily because they’re solely attracted to blonde/white girls (though I have an Asian friend who is very attracted to blond girls).
Helen says
Katarina Phang 83 & 87… I admit, I’ve been sitting here reading your posts with a big ol’ smile on my face. 😀 It’s great being Asian gals, isn’t it? Hey, I can say that – Evan said he wasn’t running a PC blog. 😉 You’re proud of yourself, proud of your race, perfectly satisfied with the men around you… and that’s sexy.
My approach toward men is slightly different from yours as described in 83, though (and maybe it’s not strictly an Asian behavior). I don’t make men feel in charge; I’m just happy around them, they know I like their company, and the happiness rubs off on them.
Renshi says
The dating statistics are true for now, but the comments by Helena and Katarina are in their way just as racist as anything Stacey wrote.
Ms L says
Interesting topic to discuss.
Lily says
To Helen and Katarina,
I don’t disagree with either of you in that being an Asian female in the dating market these days is that hard. A great majority of White Men are open to dating an Asian woman. My issue is that a lot of these guys aren’t in the top 10% of desirability. ( sorry to be having to use a numeric rating system; just trying to illustrate a point). Now having said this, I am sure that any regular reader of Evan’s blog will be quick to point out that
a) I’m overrating myself
b) top 10% of what? desirability can be evaluated in a million different ways- kindness, compassion, etc.
Asia is a mecca for subpar white men who want to score with young attractive women who would be out of their leagues in their home country.
twinkle says
@Lily: I’m sorry, but a lot of what you said isn’t true in my experience. Some of the most beautiful girls I’ve known were East Asian, and they had their pick of not the top 10% of desirability, but 1% or perhaps 0.5%. I look at youtube comments sometimes and the amount of fawning over Asian women by white guys can be nauseating.
“Asia is a mecca for subpar white men who want to score with young attractive women who would be out of their leagues in their home country.” True for the poor Asian countries, eg Thailand, Vietnam, because these women are uneducated and poor. If you’re talking about Asian hotties in the US who are educated and have jobs, the sky’s the limit. This is also true of attractive women in the US of almost ANY race…Sometimes, women see things as way more complicated than they really are…
Stacy says
Goldie, I think you need to decide which one of these is true:
Goldie #77
There was an article in the news a few weeks ago about a high school in a county next to ours, where a girl was bullied to the point where she killed herself, for being Croatian and speaking with an accent. She was as european-looking as they come. My kids got nasty comments about their heritage a few times, but they’re boys and know how to fight, so the comments stopped pretty much as soon as they started.
Goldie #58
And yeah, a lot of people were asking us how our children would identify. Well I’m happy to report that my children (in high school now) both identify themselves as Americans of mixed heritage. They enjoy learning about their ancestry, but on the whole their ethnicity is just an interesting fact to them — a conversation piece — not a huge, life-defining factor that they have to build their whole world around. I love this about their generation — these kids are totally color-blind
From your #77 it doesn’t look like “these kids” are all that color blind after all. I think the bottomline here is that race matters. Ethnicity matters. I don’t want to have my life of my future kids life more complicated than it needs to be. And I am not under illusion that we live in a color-blind society, cause we’re not. And Goldie? It gets worse outside of the US. The US is actually the most tolerant society that I know of. But the world is a lot bigger than just this one country, and I want to have options. So intermarriage? Thanks, I’ll pass.
Katarina #87
Unlike you, I do not have a problem with how “pure-breds” of my race look and actually kinda like it, so I am not looking to “infuse asian blood” into my mix. You can’t have it both ways girls. If you’re entitled to “improve the looks” of your future children by intrmarrying with whites, than I am entiteled to “preserve the looks” of my future kids by sticking to .. the whites. If anybody finds it offensive – they’re gonna have to deal with it.
It's you says
This is why I love that companies are now manufacturing DNA kits that can tell you where your ancestors are from down to the country. Many among the types who believe there is such a thing as a “purebred” will undoubtedly be quite shocked when they learn their heritage isn’t quite as “pure” as they thought it was and may have to rethink a few things.
Katarina Phang says
Wow Stacy, again you’re off the mark. You’re implying that mixed kids (especially with Asian) are worse looking than just pure white (as you are). And I’m telling you that’s baloney to the highest degree. Chance is your kids will be better looking if you have them with Asian as 90% do. A lot of average looking asian and white people have the most gorgeous kids.
And you’re implying we Asians need white blood to have good looking kids as you white don’t. Again, that’s very insulting and not a reflection of a reality. You really are saying Asians really are worse looking than white.
And no, I don’t need a white man to have good looking kids though the probability for that is perhaps higher with white men: I’m good looking and my parents are pretty decent looking with no white blood in them.
I’m attracted to mainly white guys for cultural reasons mentioned above by some others and physical reasons (they’re bigger, taller, have more masculine traits, etc), but I do think many Asian women especially are exceptionally beautiful (again, we’re slender, feminine, have most beautiful, soft, smooth skin, age better, etc) and as such it’s not surprising why guys from any race (not just white) find them really attractive because they are by any standard.
Renshi says
In your obsession with looks and with how (you think) race affects them you are really no different from Stacey.
Lily says
Stacy#91
I have mentioned this already, but I do applaud you for sticking to your guns and being honest. Underneath the surface of the choices people make in selecting a mate are often politically incorrect motives. You are right about attitudes outside of the US. In Hong Kong, where I lived for a brief period, most Chinese would embraced me if I married either a) Chinese/East Asian or b) White, but would look at me with pity if I married a darker colored person and would openly tell me so.
Upon meeting me, most people would assume that I only date white men. ( why not “date up” if you could?). Though I understand Evan’s answer to my questions, It still doesn’t clarify things for me further. Look around you, even religious people who have been taught their whole lives to judge a person by their character, not by the color of their skin end up marrying someone of more or less equal attractiveness.
Unfortunately in our world today, standards of attractiveness are more often determined by Eurocentric values. Even Evan concedes that if you are an Asian man, you will have a more difficult time finding a date. The excuse that a lot of Asian women use: ” I am not attracted to Asian men because they are too traditional/demanding/mama’s boys.. is just an excuse to avoid the real reason they are rejecting them. Also, the Asian men who are westernized/progressive/independent/…. are generally NOT interested in dating other Asian women- they are after the hot white women ( who are rejecting them for being …well, not attractive/masculine, etc..) and around and around we go.
Stacy, your point of view is not PC, but it is spot on. Now, however, what if some tall Asian man did come your way- but he wasn’t just your average Asian man?: He was charismatic, athletic/fit, an MBA, self made millionaire etc.. etc.. You then might start to reconsider…. Which is my point exactly.
Karmic Equation says
I’m Asian. Purebred Chinese, to be exact.I don’t consider dating white men as “dating up”. I date them because I think they’re more attractive, physically and culturally. The only attractive Asian guy that I can think of is Chow Yun Fat…and most Asian guys don’t look like him. They’re more along the Jet Li and Jackie Chan looks. Not appealing to me.I’ve also never dated a black man…for the same reason. Most black men aren’t attractive to me. I can’t envision ever having sex with them. The only ones that I could are movie-star attractive, Shemar Moore, Taye Diggs. And exactly how many of those guys are accessible to us non-celebrities? ZERO. It has nothing to do with “dating down”.I meet more good looking white guys in a day than I do good looking Asian or black men in a year (actually, maybe more like 5 years). So dating a white guy is a numbers game and an attraction thing. I believe Asian men, on the whole, are harder working and smarter than most white men. So, NOT dating Asian men has NOTHING to do with “dating down” but due to lack of attraction and cultural incompatibilities (most Asian men are very arrogant when they date Asian women, like they’re doing us a favor. No thanks.) So, please, White Women on this board, don’t put words in the mouths of us minorities, particularly the Asian ones. I’ll confess that through online dating I’ve become rather pleasantly surprised about my own attractiveness to men in general. Moreover, most Caucasian men who date me, think THEY’re “dating up”, not the other way around–once they get to know me. Don’t get me wrong, they THINK they’re meeting the stereotypical Asian flower, who is easily impressed. But once they get to know me on that first date, that stereotype flies out the window and they’re attracted to the fact I’m NOT the stereotypical Asian flower–sexy and confident, more intelligent than they ever imagined a “minority” could be, good-humored, and unabashedly genuine. I’m just myself. I don’t worry if I’m going to say the wrong thing or make the wrong impression. Most white men think THEY’re lucky to date an attractive Asian woman. Most Asian women do NOT think that dating white men is dating up. We KNOW they think they’re the lucky ones…and we behave accordingly.
Renshi says
You’ve made a lot of very honest and thoughtful points. We all would like to think ethnicity just doesn’t matter in dating or elsewhere, that people just choose each other as individual human beings, but a lot of the posts here show that stereotypes, status-seeking by race, and obsessions with how people look are alive and well. I don’t agree with Stacy’s conclusion about choosing not to marry Asian men, but I think mostly she’s committed the cardinal sin of telling a little too much truth. Stereotypes of Asian men (and other groups) can still have a powerful effect on people’s lives.
Katarina Phang says
Ok Lily, let’s make it clear here: it’s true people will MAINLY be attracted to the opposite sex with equal level of attractiveness (unless of course you’re a rock star…then no matter how ugly you are you can pick any super model you like).
I’m open to any race as long as I find them attractive. My last 3 relationships are with white guys, the last two are exceptionally handsome and masculine and tall (lucky me!), so yeah obviously I have something for (tall) white HANDSOME guys (ok well to be honest, throw me a handsome guy of any race any day, I’ll be happy).
However, do I find most white people -men and women- attractive? NO. Hardly. That’s why I find Stacy’s remark that white people are in general better looking than Asians and they’re better stick to their own race so not to stain their superior attractiveness is a total delusion of grandeur. And as such it’s offensive. But then again I perhaps don’t have a say in what people PERSONALLY find attractive or unattractive, so I digress… But that’s my personal feeling on the matter.
So very attractive Asian guys will only date very attractive women -white or otherwise- and since they are very attractive the probability for them to attract attractive (8 as you say) white females are far higher than most Asian guys (which is the same for white guys too: if they are not that attractive, they are unlikely to attract very attractive Asian women -the requirements are still the same, whatever race you are). So, in that way you see more 10 Asian guys date 8 white women, it’s because they have that option, not because they are less attracted to equally attractive Asian female. I bet they’ll have no problem to date very beautiful Asian women if they happen to meet one (again, my Asian best buddy who is a sucker for blond is actually so smitten to a Chinese girl who is a model).
Most people are average, so yeah most white guys who are attracted to you -and me- are average as most guys of any race. Unless you are living a high society lifestyle in which you only mingle with creme de la creme (rock star, models, millionaires, actors), then don’t expect these people will find you that easily. That really is the straightforward, most logical explanation to your “dilemma.”
Katarina Phang says
Lily, personally I’m into guys with strong masculine traits like height, body size, etc… That’s more easily found in white guys than Asian, that doesn’t mean however there are no Asian guys who look like that. It’s just harder to find.
Physical attraction is first then other things develop: there you infuse character, personality, personal achievements, ect… into the equation. I can’t be with anyone from any race (that includes TONS of white guys) whom I’m not attracted to.
So, no, having more good-looking kids isn’t my main concern, who I’m attracted to is and yes that eventually includes character, personality, morals, etc (all my lovers are decent human beings, it’s a MUST). I won’t just settle with any white guy just because I want half-white kids!! Hell no. (gasp) I’d rather be with an Asian guy I’m crazy attracted to (and that’s possible believe it or not) than with any white dude.
Sure, in the end, I agree with you, as I said most people of ANY RACE are average. The stereotype of slender, soft skinned Asian women can easily be debunked too if you really want to. It’s all generalization, though stereotype/generalization reflects a reality to some/a great extent (hence, the generalization that Asian guys are mostly slender, short, etc..)
My problem with Stacy is not that she prefers to stay within her own race but the deluded belief that white people are generally more attractive than Asians and as such it’s a downgrade for them to marry Asians (and an upgrade to Asians to marry white), while the reality is an upgrade to BOTH in terms of the attractiveness of their offsprings.
It’s her condescending way of saying “why can’t I stay within my own race so I can have better looking offsprings the way you want to marry us for the same purpose?” is very offensive and delusional because it’s not based on objective reality (as majority of people will agree, in this case).
Lily says
Katarina #93
According to you, Asian women are exceptionally beautiful- but Asian men are not? Asian women are desirable and feminine, but Asian men are not desirable and not masculine? Would you not say that you are just affirming Stacey’s position? A mixed ( half asian/white) male would, in fact, be acquiring some of the positive physical traits that you are mentioning from the european side.
Again, I have no problems with Stacey’s honesty. At least she is defending her own race. It is one thing for an Asian woman to want to be with a white man because he is a person of character, but to reiterate the common stereotype that they are more masculine, etc…than Asian men is just plain mean.
Think about this from an Asian male’s perspective: which is more hurtful? the White woman who doesn’t want him because she wants her kids to look more like herself, or the the Asian woman who doesn’t want to date him because she wants her children to be more beautiful?
Also, your point of view that Asian women are more beautiful comes from a narrow perspective as you are obviously comparing good looking Asians with not good looking white women. There are plenty of ugly asian women with bad skin. A lot of them may be slender, but they are also boyishly shaped and without womanly curves. There are good looking/bad looking people across all racial groups. Also, if Asian women are so beautiful, why are they one of the fastest growing demographics for plastic surgery?
I’m glad you think so highly of your place in the dating totem pole, but please, don’t denigrate your own men on your climb to the top.
Asiangal says
Good discussion everyone. Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents. I’m a 30-year-old Asian woman who was born and (mostly) raised in North America and consider myself very Westernized. I agree with some of the previous posts, in my experience, as an above average (in looks, personality, education) Asian woman in a North American metropolis, I had many guys interested in me and in turn I’ve dated a variety of men in the past. I always thought I’d end up with an Asian guy who is very Westernized as well. Turns out the man of my dreams was not Asian but an outgoing white guy (ok, I admit he is tall, dark and handsome!). Yes, looks attracted me, but he also shared all of my values (regarding family, religion, money, education etc). Yes, there are cultural and language barriers when dealing with certain older family members, but we do the best we can. We are now engaged and looking forward to starting our family soon – hoping to have a few mixed beautiful “mutts”. 🙂
Lily, I guess I just wanted to say that you can’t help who you click with – whichever race that may be for you. There will be trade-offs likely but just follow your heart and be with the one who makes you laugh everyday. Life is too short to care about what other people think. Good luck in your search.
Katarina Phang says
Lily, I don’t get what you’re saying. You mean the position to think that marrying a white guy is an upgrade or a downgrade which is the politically correct one? My position is certainly not based on political correctness, but my honest opinion based on objective reality.
We’re attracted to whomever we’re attracted to. We can’t help it for the most part. You’re just overanalyzing things. Love isn’t about logical analysis, it’s about what your heart says for the most part.
What does your heart say? Who are you attracted to, physically and emotionally? So you’re not attracted to Asian men but you don’t say if you’re (not) attracted to white guys. It seems to me you’re just trying to apply excessive logic and ideal to matter that mostly concerns the heart and emotions. It sounds like you’re just trying all you can to deny your very own attracted-ness to white guys, that you are NOT dating white men for whatever utopian ideal you hold sacred. That’s pretty strange to me.
Follow your heart and to hell with “fairness,” “justice,” “equality”, and what not. It’s about what you want/need, not about you changing the world. Leave it to the Gandhis and MLKs of the world. 🙂 Color blind or not, it’s only one of the many issues you’re going to face in relationship and most likely it’s not the most important one so don’t get bogged down by non-issues. Where you and I live, color isn’t really such a major issue. Whoever thinks it is is stuck in the stone age.
No, I still think Stacy is off the mark. As a general rule, most white and asian are average looking. The mixture between the two races is what makes the offsprings more desirable for 80-90% mixed marriages -compared to their respective pure blooded parents-, NOT the whiteness as Stacy and yourself tend to believe. That’s hogwash. If that’s true we’ll see how beautiful/handsome most white white people are which is not the case.
Even the white guys I’m attracted to are not easy to find (maybe like 1 in 1000 at least?). You can say in general I find white guys more attractive if you like but that doesn’t deny the point that most white (and asian or other race) are not attractive as per my personal standard of attractiveness. And as for myself, I find many (again, not saying ALL) Asian women very attractive for reasons I cited above -that again perhaps contributes to the more feminine attributes to the Asian race (like soft skin) which is not quite conducive to the guys, unfortunately- and I can see why white and men in general of any race find them so too.
Helen says
Katerina Phang – you stated it perfectly, so I don’t need to. Especially your 2nd-to-last paragraph in #96.
But really, people. This discussion is mostly taking place among people who clearly haven’t had children yet. Believe it or not, when you do have kids, their attractiveness is not going to be the most important factor, not by a long shot. Besides, you shouldn’t be thinking about marrying only for the purpose of what your kids will look like – good grief. Then you’re treating your husband (or wife) basically as a tool.
Lily says
Katarina,
Your position is the politically correct one and Stacy’s is the one that is more in line with reality. There are plenty of people in the world who feel that are marrying up when they marry white. And there are plenty who don’t. Those whose views are not PC are just silenced.
A lot of racially mixed children are beautiful, but most are just average. There is longing in all of us to want the world to be more fair. When we speak highly of the importance of character and personality it really warms our hearts. When we see a beautiful mixed race person, we want that to be an affirmation of the wonderful results that happen when we live in a color blind society. But the cold, hard truth is that most of us, consciously or not, will evaluate our potential mates’ value based on superficial traits to one degree or another.
Let’s say a black man states that he prefers delicate, lighter skin women, but unfortunately most women in his racial group don’t fit the bill, so therefore he is generally more attracted to white or asian women. Could you not conclude then that he thinks white or Asian women are more beautiful?
If an Asian woman states that she prefers big strong men, but unfortunately most men in her racial group don’t fit the bill, but a lot of white men do, could you not conclude that she thinks white men are more attractive?
I don’t think Stacy is being condescending. She is just stating a truth that does exist and is confirmed by your preference for big, strong men.
It's you says
It is not “the truth” that white men are the best and most desirable. Maybe it’s YOUR truth. But like all things in attraction and relationships, you only speak for yourself.
Detha says
Asiangal post #97 hit the nail on the head. She spoke about the personality of her man while the other posters really went on only about the physical attributes. Good on you Asiangal.
When choosing a partner it is not always about looks but other important things like having shared values in terms of religion, money, education etc.
Stacy #11, You have made some valid points. But I do think your post came over a bit condesending to a few of the readers. People of mixed heritage are not as socially excluded as you may think. Look at the number of mixed race people on the televison, they are a well sought after group.
If you choose to exclusively date within your race, all power to you but just try and not put down another race to justify your dating preferences. I am reffering here to the last part of your #11 post where you mentioned Asian women as being submissive.
Lily says
Katarina,
I don’t think white men are a particularly attractive bunch. As I had originally stated in my question to Evan, I am more attracted to Black/Hispanic/Mixed men. So I agree with you that white does not equal better. However, white men are attracted to men in droves. Cant’ step out the door without tripping over some white dude wanting to ask me out. Maybe it’s simply the lack of challenge that’s making it unappealing. Without dragging this out further, you are entitled to your opinion and Stacey is to hers. Whether or not your opinion is the objective one is debatable. But I do have to admit that you did say one thing that does resonate with me : “Leave it to the Gandhis and MLKs of the world.”
Katarina Phang says
Detha, obviously the personality match is assumed. None of us will settle with anyone only based on looks. We’re not talking about it only because we were focusing on physical attraction -which is the very subject of the discussion here- which is the basis for most modern relationship, without which there is no possibility for a sustainable relationship. If you’re not into someone, there is no desire to find out about his/her character, personality, religion, etc.
Helen says
This post did take a turn in a direction perhaps unintended by the OP: to discussing the attractiveness of one’s children in racial contexts. Most of you (Goldie is an exception) don’t have children yet, so I’d like to offer some perspectives as a mom of miscegenous children:
1. When you have children, you might be amazed at how LITTLE you care about their attractiveness. By far, the two most important things you will find yourself always caring about are: 1) their health, and 2) their intellectual development. The only parents who constantly harp to me about their kids’ looks are fathers who worry that their teenage or 20-something daughters are TOO pretty, and thus attracting the wrong kind of attention (in their minds).
2. Parents don’t worry about looks too much because they know looks don’t, ultimately, matter that much – not even in matters of romantic pursuit. At the time my husband proposed to me (11 years ago), I would rate myself a 4 and my elder sister an 8 in appearance. My parents said that they always knew I’d get married first, because I had the more sparkly, happy personality; even though all our relatives acknowledged how beautiful my sister was.
3. You will love your kids no matter how they look, no matter the color or softness of their skin, the texture of their hair, their facial features, or indeed their beauty or lack thereof.
4. Though I’m open to most types of familial arrangements, I do think it’s an advantage to children to have two parents in the home (different OR same genders). So if it’s important to you that your children are well cared-for, it’s much more important that you choose a spouse who is loyal, kind, and dependable; and will stay with you for a long time; rather than focusing on attractiveness.
Lily says
Helen @103,
Thank you for pointing out that this post has taken on a course that was not intended. This issue is more than just about physical attraction. I just feel more understood by non white men, hence my greater attraction to them. Nothing makes me feel more beautiful than being appreciated for my mind. So when a white guy comes along and starts the usual drool about my “soft clear skin, youthful looks, feminine delicate appeal etc. etc..” it really does turn me off.
I don’t have any particular theory that any racial group or certain racial mixes are more attractive physically than others and I’m certain I will love my children no matter how they look like. And I hope more people continue to date interracially. I’m simply observing that a lot of other people out there have preferences that are more Eurocentric. I’m not looking for a mate based on looks, but I’m looking for a certain connection.
My problem was that I have given all kinds of guys a try and the ones most interested in me for marriage all happen to be white. Kind, decent men of character, but for whatever reason, I didn’t feel that strong connection. ( not “hot chemistry”, but just a strong pull toward that person. The guys that I have had a strong connection with- there were problem too-being too similar can have it’s challenges. My question to Evan was, what to do? The gold standard answer was ” choose someone based on their character, doesn’t matter the package”. But I’m not so sure all dating dilemmas can be so easily dismissed.
Katarina Phang says
Lily, if you’re not attracted to white men, then go for the “other” whom you’re attracted to. Or better still, just be open to any guy regardless of race who comes to you and see how you match to them. You’ll be surprised sometimes that some people do marry outside the race they deem desirable. (I used to know a blond Dutch who was into Asian girls who ended up marrying another blond).
I just don’t understand why you think Stacy isn’t PC while others who disagree with her is PC, while you yourself in fact agree with my assertion that most white people are not attractive (like with any race) -and even worse, you’re not even attracted to white guys!!.
Why does it bother you so much that white guys are attracted to you because of your natural feminine qualities (mind you every guy -or girl- I know from any race always compliments on how beautiful/soft my skin is)? I think you should be grateful instead of being turned off. As for myself, I’m enjoying the adoration. I thrive on it. It makes me so happy in my own skin and that’s, as Helen said, soooo sexy! It makes me so irresistible to so many guys, white or otherwise.
And why does it bother you so much that many Asian women are eurocentric, while you yourself blatantly dismiss Asian guys as not attractive to you? I think you think too much. 🙂
Yeah this discussion has taken a pretty pedantic twist on how attractive one’s offsprings will be with the right mixture of genes simply because someone so adamantly purported, without any basis, that a mixture with Asian blood will dilute the attractiveness of her white tribe. You and I have Asian fathers -and no white blood-, but we are so much in demand in the dating market, what does it tell her?
Luxe says
Lily,
From what I gathered from your original post, I understood it as you where worried about dating white guys (which I took it as you were attracted to them) because of what society perceives as more desireable. Is this not really an issue then if you’re not attracted to white guys in general?
You are attracted to and connect to better with people of other races partly because of the similarities. There isn’t anything wrong with that. That is your personal boundary and it is up to you whether or not you want to push that or not. No answer is wrong. Let’s be real. No matter what race you are.. the majority of guys you will come across won’t meet your standards. Isn’t this what Evan talks about all the time? So you keep dating till you find someone. Since this is the reality of it, then isn’t the mismatch of white guys honing after you and the “other” guys not working out just part of the whole dating debacle? So I don’t see the need to be annoyed at white guys coming after you nor worried that sticking to “other” guys will end up badly because of too many similarities. You’re just still not meeting the right guys. That’s how I take it at least.
Katarina Phang says
Luxe, precisely. It’s really that simple, yet she makes it like rocket science. 🙂
I’m reading it the way you do too: that she’s actually attracted to white guys but very conflicted/guilty about it because it makes her just like many other Asian women -a “sell out”-. She wants to be attracted to Asian men but she is not. She even went on endorsing Stacy’s position with her bitter anti-Asian undertone (racist to others): Asian women “throwing themselves at white men” (we really don’t have to, they’re flocking to us as even Lily herself attests!) and men who are mainly attracted to them “are seeking submissive women.”
It almost sounds like self-loathing to me the way she’s agreeing with Stacy so strongly (sorry, Lily).
Helen says
Lily and Katarina: I share Luxe’s viewpoint that it isn’t really about race. It’s about difficulties finding a compatible mate, which troubles everyone, not just minority groups.
More on that point: the comments Lily and Katarina are getting about their looks – have you ever stopped to think that it is because you are objectively beautiful, not because you are specifically Asian? And that you would hear compliments from guys even if you were a different race but with the same level of beauty? After all, I’m Asian, get admired by white guys, and only hear those comments occasionally – because I’m not a beauty queen. 🙂 Instead, the comments I get are “smart,” “charming,” and “fun” – comments I’ve never associated specifically with being Asian.
I think that race often only becomes a big deal if you make it a big deal. The more color-blind you are, including about yourself, the more you’ll project that image in everything you do and say; and the more others will pick up on your cue about how to behave around you.
C. says
I agree with others, Lily, that you are over thinking this! I understand, because I tend to over think things too. But I’m not quite sure I understand why you don’t just stick to what you prefer. I think we are all confused because in your OP you said that you give “other” races a chance as a way to contribute to the world, correct? That made it seem that you weren’t really attracted to them, just giving out ‘pity’ dates. But in your subsequent posts you say that you indeed are attracted to “others” more than whites or asians. In that case, why not just ignore the whites and asians you are not attracted to? I’m sure there are lots of guys of the “other” races that would be a great match for you! Stop complicating matters with guilt or worries about society.
Lily says
I really appreciate all the feedback and varying points of view, especially luxe @107. I had started reading Evan’s post about a month ago and his answers always seem to point in the direction of “like the people who like you back”. Coupled with the fact that I just turned 31 and the family pressure is on…which got me thinking… why don’t I just accept one of those nice white guys who are always after me? If I found one that I was drawn to, then sure, why not, but thus so far I haven’t.
Re Katarina’s comment that I was genuinely attracted to white guys, but feel guilty about it; I thought about this and I would say that this is not the case. If a very attractive, westernized Asian male was to show interest in me, I would be interested, but unfortunately, this doesn’t happen much, so the chances are slim. I happen to be physically attracted to buff men with darker skin. The White Man/Asian Woman combo is so common, that the ordinariness of it makes it seem so boring. If the hordes of white men after me were subtracted from the equation, my situation would but just as Luxe describes- just dating and trying to find a fit. Though I am conscious not to be too picky, as I am not getting any younger -but hey, with my lucky youthful Asian genes, I will certainly get a lot of mileage 🙂
As Evan has stated earlier, he is not running a PC blog here. People should be free to express their point of view. Even if someone’s point of view differs from mine, I still appreciate the truth.
Gracielocks says
Lily,
As a black chick who has practically dated the rainbow (including Asian dudes), I agree with Evan when he says to choose the one who you like who likes you back.
I’ve done the whole “date within the race to prove a point” thing. I’ve also done the “try to further world peace and tolerance through dating” thing. I’ve run from guys who seemed to fetishize me as their “Nubian Princess” while completely ignoring the heart and mind of woman beneath the chocolate skin, and I’ve been bored silly by guys who reminded me more of my second cousin than the man of my dreams. I don’t regret any of those relationships because they taught me some important life lessons that I would not have learned otherwise. Plus most of them were great kissers 😉
Now I go for the guy who makes me feel good. The guy who makes me feel happy when I’m with him and happy when we’re apart. The guy who cherishes my heart as well as my physical attributes. The guy who keeps his word and honors his commitments. The guy who makes me feel safe and adored. This guy could be any race or ethnicity, but I’ll never know until I give him a chance.
So no, you’re not selling out. You’re investing in your future happiness. I wish you the best of luck and love!
Stoppingby says
As an East Indian woman raised in the states, I can say I tried so long to find the “right Indian man”. My friend suggested dating outside of your race, and …….voila! All of the qualities I was looking for in an Indian men were right there in a white man that I met. I can confidently say my relationship with the white man I’m seeing is the healthiest I’ve been in. He cherishes me, respects me and treats me as an equal.
Why should respecting yourself and being happy make you a sell-out? I tried dating within my race, but I was unhappy and mistreated. No thanks.
Stoppingby says
BTW, I’m not saying that all white men treat their women as well. I know there are good Indian men and not so good men in other races.
But, a guy that makes me happy is standing right there in front of my face. He just happens to be white.
dumbtard says
Indian men marry more from stats
Asiantango says
Which stats by US census the Indians who were born in India and live in US ( mostly came for MS) out marriage is 7% for men and 5% for women while for those born in US our marriage is 34% for women and 27% for men.
yeahright says
wrong, go to Asian nation its weird to even consider Indians Asian, because they’re not Mongoloids, Indian women are the least likely to marry out, this trend is the same in Australia, the UK, and Canada, they’re only 1 million Indians in America and half of them are male, don’t drag Indians into your garbage, Indian men statistically cohabit and use white women for green cards also, they aren’t quiet and boring like Asian men, except for the Brahmin caste, the rest of the Indian racial groups have no problem, but even Brahmin men date out more than their women. I hate Mongoloids, they include Indians with their negative Asian stereotypes, but then consider Indians sh/tskin third worlders when comparing countries.
nope says
The 5th generation Indian Men in the UK marry out twice as much as 5th generation Indian women and the 27% of Indian men in America who were raised there only shows the Indian men and white women percentage, the other 11% marry Hispanic and Asian women there, Indian men also marry Hispanic women twice more than vice versa, which means the men still marry out more than the females, its just that in America, they’re more races to choose from, in the UK, there is only white(British, Eastern European, Irish), so there is of course going to be less Indian men with Hispanic and Asian women in the UK than America.
AdelB says
@Katarina Phang #87 – you are definitely spot on about mixed Asian-white kids becoming top models/MTV VJ’s/actresses in Asian countries due to their looks – hailing from a South East Asian country myself (now residing in Australia) you’d be surprised at the mixed race kids they have as VJ’s/DJ’s on MTV Asia back overseas.
Having said that I married my husband (who is white and Australian of Greek descent with blond hair and hazel eyes and as European looking as they come) not because of his race or because I wanted to “infuse European blood” into our kids but due to our shared faith (we met through a Christian dating website) and similar outlook on life’s goals and shared values. Though I have seen young Asian immigrants here throwing themselves at older Caucasian men here in Australia – some with Australian men as old as their fathers – to get their green card, others because of the reasons the OP stated above.
mora says
Complex issue, skimmed.
But Stacy, you cannot control AF/WMs dating and call it them throwing themselves at “your “men. No matter how you judge–none of your business! And you think you can sway it by your hostility–haha.
As for OP–you’ll find a shift towards being colorblind the longer you remain single.
I used to wonder the same things–sexist Asians, Amerasian people were the best looking–don’t think so anymore, not attracted to certain cultures much–a lil shift there, and now, after dating Waspy types, I think, as an AF, and hearing a few racist statements come out, I might feel cut off from that culture too–there is a race blind spot with Caucasians.
And age–I’ve shifted back and forth, used to think dating younger was a dead end but older men often have sexist ideas. My exes chose me and we did have a lot in common, but, they never asked for a commitment either and all of them got serious with white women–I don’t get upset by that, as our relationships ran their course. I think culture comes into play the older I get.
A few AM are attractive to me but they prefer non Asians too–which does not other me, as I was curious about differences too.
Basically, I think it’s the person, race is not an issue.I have a certain type, whatever their hue. I still have a concern dating men of my ethnicity being related to me–they look like a relative, but other Asians attract me more because this is not the case.
John says
an Asian woman asking a white man for advice about only being attracted two white man. Yeah, like we don’t already know the answer.
Andy says
As an asian guy, I dont know how some of these ladies who have posted cant find so called “westernized asian males” and think that we prefer white females?? I have yet to meet an asian male that would turn away an attractive quality asian girl.
I think some of the ladies that have posted maybe overrate themselves. On the other hand I meet plenty of asian ladies who only date white males. These woman in my experience will quickly turn away high quality man (be it asian, latino, black, etc), in favor of white man that is maybe just average (as judged by other woman, not me).
I wouldn’t call these women “sell outs”, my view is do what makes you happy. But I do not empathized with their “plight” of be judged as “sell outs”. For what ever reason, at disproportionate amount of asian females have bought into this ideal of a “white prince charming” that will sweep them off their feet.
Helen says
Andy #118, as an Asian woman married to a white man but who dated men from multiple races before that, I can tell you it’s just a matter of statistics; not our trying to avoid or favor certain types. In fact, based on statistics alone, I disproportionately “favored” Asians, Blacks, and Hispanics; not whites, during my dating years.
I looked up the statistics for my hometown. 95% Caucasian, 4% Black, 1% other races (including Hispanic, Asian, and Native American). In other words, Asians make up <1% of the population where I live - and where I live is surrounded by towns that are even more all-white.
Don't assume that just because an Asian woman is with a white man, she is deliberately favoring whites. It's a matter of simple statistics: there are quite possibly 100 times more white men than Asian men in many parts of the US. If she were with an Asian man, THAT would be more of a statistical anomaly!
In fact, couldn't one make the argument that it is racist to assume that an Asian woman MUST be with an Asian man, and vice versa? There are so few of each that it's extremely unlikely, based on probability, that such a match would occur by random assortment. We all know it's not perfectly random, but even then, the numbers are overwhelmingly in favor of one of them ending up with a white person.
Rock says
Asian women have hurt the asian community, and the many generations of all asians in the world. Thanks to your ignorant white cock sucking, our children will be in more danger of being mock, hurt, and humiliated by others. White people treat asian people like shit. And any asian girl who dates that sort of white guy (which is many of them) are just plain the worst sort of people. They hurt and steal from us and you willingly sellout. How will you pay for your sins against me and my people you twinkie.
New York J says
I’m an Asian man and I think it’s sad that both Jews and Asians who only want to marry outside of their groups are basically saying that their fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters are not good enough for them. I hope their relatives and friends will return that kind sentiment.
KS says
To the Indian women that say Indian men are chauvinistic, have high expectations, etc, etc: LOL. Go on living in your delusional world. There are plenty of women, both in India and in other countries around the world, that are much more beautiful than the vast majority of westernized Indian women, that are not only willing to give Indian men a fair chance, but prefer them exclusively. It also happens that we are the richest, most educated group in the USA. More than Jews. (Who I love btw)
LK says
Delusional world? Not every Indian man is chauvinistic, but I have seen some who refuse to allow their daughter to become a veterinarian because he didn’t want his daughter to become a dog doctor. I have experienced first hand, my father hitting me (and I had just graduated from college) to prevent me from leaving home in order to go to a grad school program. So yes, I’m a little wary of dating Indian men because I cannot and will not live in another home where the man is the head of the house (which is a typical Indian household mentality), and I have no say in my life decisions.
Dan says
Hi,
I Google-searched this topic and came across this article. Well-written and spoke to me. I’m having some inner turmoil on this too; my situation is somewhat different; I’m a Hispanic guy whose family originally hails from South America, to be specific. Although I did have Hispanic friends as a kid, most of my close ones growing up happened to be non-Latino; this is due in part to being raised in a suburb where there weren’t too many Hispanic families. As an adult, I have mostly dated Hispanic ladies, but these relationships ended going nowhere – they would soon part ways with me; I sure didn’t initiate this; I wanted to keep seeing them. I have, in recent years, discovered that there are more “Americanized” Hispanic women of South American ancestry who strongly prefer to exclusively date white guys. I have to admit that sometimes this ticked me off, especially since some appeared like potential compatible gfs and/or wives; we shared alot in common (I’m into alt rock music, all-American themes, college grad, working out, participating in road races, wine tastings, etc..) as well as possess that shared ethnic heritage from South America; I would’ve loved to cap a night with a fine Latina lass at a restaurant intaking a couple of pisco sours or glasses of Malbec wine. I’ve noticed that a few of these women would literally boast about their white bfs or husbands, like they were deities and not regular human beings. This “superiority” issue actually has its roots in Latin America and is transported here; not all Latinas think this way, but some sadly do; there’s a self-loathing courtship and mating expression in Spanish utilized among non-white Hispanics, which is “mejorar la raza”; it translates to “improve the race”; these women, who have these inferiority complex issues (the “I can never marry some indigenous looking guy; heck no; he has to look as European as possible, and after we get married, hopefully our kids will look like their father) subscribe to this phrase. Most of these women tend to carry themselves with certain arrogance whenever they have to converse with male Hispanic colleagues at the office or other venues. The ladies, among this self-loathing bunch, who really make my blood boil, are the ones that loudly talk about how “proud” they are of being Hispanic and how great their ethnic heritage is; wow, talk about hypocrisy. They “love being Latina” but would scoff at the idea of entering a romantic relationship with a decent, college educated, white collar professional who happens to be a fellow Latino. Shaking my head. Some may point to the fear that Latino guys, no matter how Americanized, cling on to certain cultural aspects of machismo. I for one can’t stand this very Old World concept and feel that each woman should aspire to pursue their goals in life; I’m pretty sure I will not look into blocking a future wife’s path to her career success. I’m certain there are more Hispanic American males like me who can’t stand machismo attitudes either. The odd thing is that I’m attracted to white women (I won’t lie) as well as Asian females and ladies whose ancestry originates from India and surrounding nations. I have gone out with a couple of Asian ladies but nothing long lasting unfortunately materialized. Many years ago, I asked out a white undergrad during my college years; I was turned down. It’s weird – part of me thinks – wow, if I start asking out white women and maybe even develop good relationships, won’t I be considered a “sellout”? At the same time, “my women” never wanted to develop anything long-term with me anyhow. I’m definitely getting older and thought (when I was a kid) that I’d be married by now, with a great wife and kids. I think I may have to consider expanding my dating options. Reading everyone’s comments here has been interesting, to say the least. Evan, thanks for sharing the insight you have as a Jewish male; I’ve noticed more and more Jewish males who enter inter-ethnic relationships, and yes, sometimes to the chagrin of older Jewish relatives. Your words put this trend into perspective, culturally speaking, and clears things up for me. I wasn’t sure why this was occuring since (I grew up with Jewish friends) it’s been my understanding that the Jewish community highly encourages their men to marry women of the same faith. One of my friends actually met his wife through JDate; he did date women of other religions when he was single, but he had this steadfast focus on only marrying a lady of his faith which he did.
T says
Sometimes I feel like committing suicide knowing that everyone will give me the cold shoulder because of my race. What’s the point to living when all you have to look forward to is a lifetime of being used and alone?
Joe says
Therapy begins with T.
Michelle says
Joe, What an inane thing to say. Try a little harder next time when commenting on another person’s valid human struggle with circumstances that disfavor their happiness and success.
Michelle says
What should be offered to people like T is not only an apology that their reality is what it is, but validation that how they feel in response to that is ok. It’s profoundly unacceptable to pretend like someone is mentally ill because of the valid pain they feel, especially when then person making the judgement doesn’t know that particular pain.
Anna says
“White men […] won’t understand me the way that a minority, “other race” person would,”
As an African woman who lived in many different European countries and in North America, I absolutely get what Lily meant by the above sentence. Because I have lived on 3 continents so far, I have been lucky enough to have friends from all around the world with different cultures, religions, languages. One thing I have noticed is having to answer some stupid ethnocentric remarks and questions from many Westerners about how things are or should be done. You’d have the same discussion with your non-Western friend and it’ll go like:
– We do this like that.
– Really, interesting! In my country, it’s done this way.
– Oh cool, it’s amazing.
End of discussion and on to the next subject! Have the same conversation with your Western friend and you can be sure he’ll give you: “That’s weird” or “This can’t be, the only way to do this is like that blah blah”. After nearly 18 years of this in more than 5 European countries, the US and Canada, I have decided that I’m not dating white guys any. I have tried but it’s too much work spending your time explaining or justifying almost everything. It’s like they do zero effort to acknowledge the fact that there are other things aside eurocentrism. Minorities don’t have any choice but to learn about the dominant culture so I guess they’re more inclined or used to the idea of things doing being done differently elsewhere and that it’s fine. When you’re a minority dating another a minority, it’s true that you’re still gonna have cultural and/or religious hurdles to overcome but you also have a lot more in common.
The whole “People with different life experiences fare well together” only works when religion or culture are swept under the rug, or worse one of the two people totally assimilates in the culture of his/her partner.
Dan says
Anna, you make an interesting point. I have seen all too often many minorities, who, deciding to “go with the flow” in their inter-racial relationships, become completely assimilated. Some lose sight entirely of their heritage which they grew up with, or become embarrased by it.
Then, there are other minorities, who go overboard the other way, and become walking talking ethnic caricatures. I’ve seen this happen with some Hispanic women – I’m a Hispanic guy – who marry non-Hispanic guys (most do end up being white guys) and get very pushy proclaiming how proud they are of being Latina, etc.. talk Spanish to anyone they think are Hispanic, etc.. I think it’s a psychological reaction of sorts because it does look exaggerated. Plus, it looks quite hypocritical because these are the same women who, when they were single, would turn down decent Hispanic bachelors left and right. If I could gather all of these confused ladies in a room, I’d tell them to cut it out, don’t blurt out Spanish phrases to me (I’m an American; let’s stick to English, okay?) and talk to me as you would talk to your husbands’ friends, who for the most part are not Hispanic. I want equal communication treatment, not cartoonish bufoonery.
loncaster says
Your response to Jewish dating is a bit inconsistent with reality. I thought Jewish women are a lot more likely to insist on marrying a non-Jewish man than vice-versa. There are more negative stereotypes regarding Jewish men when it comes to sex.
liam says
I love this other excuse that asian women often use…that they grew up in a white neighborhood…that there are simply fewer asian men than white men in the U.S. …blah blah.
If it were truly about population stats, then we’d see more asian men also dating out…more black women dating out. But no, it’s mainly asian women who date out, in droves. What this indicates is that for whatever reason, the two groups (asian women, and non-asian men) are only too willing to date each other. But when it comes to non-asian men dating non-asian women, and black women dating non-black men, clearing one or both parties are not interested in dating the other. The question is WHY?
Well we all know WHY. It’s just that it’s not PC to talk about the dating TOTEM POLE which goes by race and gender. Certain race/gender combos are seen as more desirable than others. FACT. And if you say it’s not true then either you have your head in the sand and/or are being ultra PC. I guess we are all supposed to think that any and all inter-racial relationships are all wonderful and warm and fuzzy, when in fact MANY are formed out of racial stereotyupes, fetishes, self-hate and white worship
the supposed asian woman who wrote in ‘sorta feels guilty’ about dating white men. of course she feels guilty. is she blind? does she not see all the other asian women around her, with NON asian men? how can she and everyone else on the planet seriously think this is all …what…pure coincidence?…that so many asian women are with non-asian men? it’s always hard to examine yourself and your own possible racial stereotypes and self hate and white worship, but when you see it so prevalent, there can be no denying that many asian women date men based on RACE (ie non asian males) and that this stems from white worship and self hate. She thinks she can deflect her own guilt by saying ‘well…gee…I sorta feel guilty’….cuz she then knows that white boys will run to her and say ‘oh no honey, there’s nothing wrong with having a PREFERENCE for me and guys like me’. White guys who can’t otherwise get dates take total advantage of these self hating women.
josavant says
I don’t get the Asian guys who think that Asian women owe it to them to go out with them or marry them, and if they date or marry a non-Asian guy, they’re selling out or betraying the race. I don’t think white guys owe it to me to only date or marry white women. I don’t think twice when one of my white guy friends dates an Asian or a woman of another race.
Was it Karmic (sorry Karmic if it wasn’t you) who said in another page that she wouldn’t date Asian guys because culturally, they think it’s OK to be domineering to Asian women? That might come across as racist, but it made me think. In China, the one child policy made a lot of parents abort girl fetuses and put up daughters for adoption out of the country. In India, even though there is no one child policy, there are a lot of girl fetuses being aborted and girl babies abandoned (just read this recently). So it only stands to reason that if you are a woman who comes from one of these cultures, you don’t want to perpetuate those negative stereotypes into the new world. You may stay away from someone else from that culture if you think he might look down on you just because you are female.
And I’m afraid some of the Asian guys commenting here DO have that mindset. You guys don’t own Asian women. If they have dating preferences by race, let them have them. Some white guys I know have a thing for Asian women, some for black women. I let them. I don’t make it all about me. I’ve dated guys of other races too, and not once has a white guy tried to tell me I’m selling out or betraying my race.
Nicole says
@Liam, well, whenever these posts start we see a lot is INFERRED about the minority women who aren’t Asian (and flat out STATED about white women).
I’d love to know why they are so quick to place themselves on a pedestal but ignore the positive qualities of women of other races. We ALL have something that sets us apart and that we should be proud of. B/c what is supposedly so “feminine” about Asian women that is supposed to make the rest of us butch by comparison? And why do they always ignore that dark skin ages well, so women much darker than them actually have very nice skin for a very long time.
None of it matters, b/c at a certain point most people grow out of needing to have the hottest chick in the room, but it is possible to be confident about your best attributes without implying that everyone else lacks them.
So far, we’ve seen people implying that all women who aren’t Asian are less educated, manly, less attractive, don’t age well, and have bad figures.
I can only say that I don’t look at the body type that I see Asian women idealizing(b/c they aren’t all skinny but my Asian friends tend to only compliment females bodies that are skinny and usually lacking in any curves) as being anything I’d say is the epitome of femininity b/c I never see anyone with curves…I would normally think its rude to say, but since many of the women on this thread have no issues bragging about themselves, I personally think women look better with large breasts, round butts, and good waist to hip ratios, and that is not a body type that Asian women can come by naturally in most cases. Perhaps there is an emphasis on being as skinny as possible b/c their extra weight doesn’t go anywhere that particularly flatters them.
At any rate, some people date interracially b/c they happened to meet someone they clicked with, and some people have some seriously messed up issues with internalized racism, and that is a shame.
I think it tends to affect Asian women and black men the most.
jo says
Nicole, these comments are kind of weird. You seem to set up a strawman as an excuse to insult Asian women’s bodies, which isn’t very nice, by acting upset that they don’t talk about your beauty or well aging skin. Why would you expect Asian women to talk about your amazing skin, or ‘the positive qualities of women of other races’? We don’t do that ourselves, do we? (I’m white and assume you have darker skin by your comments.) And HOW would you expect them to praise your skin? on social media?
More to the point, what difference would it make if Asian women praised our qualities? That isn’t going to change men’s preferences, which I assume is what you really care about. Men will like whatever they like. But for sure, they don’t tend to respect women who put down other women.
Marie says
@Liam and similar posters – dudes get a grip. No woman owes it to any group of men, especially those who think such hateful thoughts as you, to date anyone because of race. If people are happy leave them be. If you are upset because you can’t get an Asian woman to date you, that’s on you not on her. Maybe if you improved yourself and your outlook you’d attract more Asian women. That bitter attitude is definitely not attractive and I bet when you go on a date with an Asian woman she picks up on that. No one wants to go out with a guy who has already made so many assumptions about her. And if she turns you down do you comfort yourself by telling yourself it’s about race? All 6 of my male Asian cousins had no problem marrying great quality Asian American women but they never had the sourpuss attitude you display. Your destiny is what you make of it. As for the comments about selling out and preserving the Asian race, there are billions of Asians in this world. They’re hardly depending on Asian American women to preserve the Asian race.
Ranzou says
Do you even care about the consequences Asian men have to face with White people, especially men when we just allow ourselves to be doormats? We’re going to have to avoid communication with white men, and even when we give white men the benefit of the doubt, they’re going to harass us about our manhood wherever we are. Asian women also join in the harassing.
Rose says
From what I have mostly witnessed it has been down to money with asian women dating white men. Young asian women with little education and child like minds and having to send money back to their families wanting perceived wealthy white men. They are wealthy to them but not perceived as wealthy to a lot of educated white women who don’t want an old white man who in her eyes is not such a good catch.
And down to being more able to control and wanting a young vulnerable grateful submissive woman/girl when white men date asian women. Rather than someone who is equal or above them in intelligence, looks, status. And refuses to be treated like a skivvy.
The only ones I have observed have been old white men who white women have not been interested in with young asian women from poor backgrounds. And I have then seen them treating these young girls like a skivvy. They still prefer this to how Asian men treat them though.
So I’ll leave the Asian men to work that one out. What are you offering n Asian woman and how are you treating the ones who will date you? Because if she is choosing a white man over you it stands to reason he is offering her something better than you are.
marymary says
@ 135 Excuse me while I choke laughing.
Rose says
Laugh all you like mary it is what i have witnessed with every white man I know of personally who is dating or in a relationship with an asian woman.
Would be nice to know and meet some where this wasn’t the case. That’s not my reality though.
J says
Once again Rose, you should try to meet more (better?) people
Rose says
I know lots of lovely people J, just don’t know any lovely white men who date or ahve dated asian women.
Julia says
@Rose
From what I have mostly witnessed it has been down to money with asian women dating white men. Young asian women with little education and child like minds and having to send money back to their families wanting perceived wealthy white men
That’s a very racist statement. Putting down an entire group of people as having child like minds because they look different than you? People, date who you want to date and don’t feel pressured to date someone you aren’t attracted to. We live in a melting pot where we have the opportunity to spend time with people of different cultures and that’s wonderful. But hateful statements like what Rose wrote (the irony because she is always going on and on about love, respect, etc) shouldn’t be tolerated.
Rose says
Julia every single older white men I know personally who are involved with these Asian women when I have asked why thet like Asian women so much have given me the same answer.
” It is the child like niavity, submissivness taught by their culture and that do everything for their man. Shave them, put their socks on, speak only when spoken to first etc etc.”
Just telling it as it was told to me my every single man I know in this situation. If you find my experience of what I have witnessed and been told racist, that is what you think.
All the Asian women in question were Thai women. Not chinese or pakistani.
It had nothing to do with their looks, do not know where you got that idea from.
marymary says
Rose
From this:
“Rather than someone who is equal or above them in intelligence, looks, status”.
For the record, I find your comment racist too.
Of course, if you narrow down it down from “asian” to “thai” to “men I know” you can make any kind of stupid statement “true”.
Clare says
Wow, Rose
They all said exactly the same thing. How convenient for you and your world view that the world is divided into women, who are easy and gullible prey powerless to prevent themselves from being swept into unsuitable and abusive arrangements… and lecherous and predatorial men, just watching and waiting from the sidelines, waiting to swoop down on their next victim.
It would almost be amusing as a Count Dracula-type tale, if it weren’t so insufferable to read week after week.
Sparkling Emerald says
Rose, @ 135, and all your following racist tripe – Hate to burst your racist bubble, but google Connie Chung & Maury Povich. Does Connie Chung fit your racist stereotype of “Young asian women with little education and child like minds ?????????”
Just how many such couples do you know personally ? Why are you friends with hordes of such chauvinistic married men, and allow them to tell you intimate unfavorable details about their marriage ?
My guess is, that when people on this board suddenly become an “expert” on a certain type of relationship, and “know from personal experience”, it is either a case of confirmation bias, or them extrapolating ONE or TWO personal experiences onto the entire population. That’s exactly what bigotry is.
Inter racial marriages are no longer unheard of, but they are still enough of a relative rarity, that it would really be surprising that anyone would know a large enough sampling of a specific inter racial coupling (White male to Asian female) to be able to draw any conclusion about that specific inter racial coupling as a whole.
My guess is that you are buying into a particular stereotype & confirmation bias is kicking in. Not all Asian to Caucasian marriages are mail order brides. There are many American born women of Asian descent who are not “uneducated and child like.” In fact, I think you have your stereotypes confused. Asians are often stereo typed as being uber intelligent and obsessed with education.
Over my lifetime, I have known a handful of people involved in inter racial relationships. White women to black, black man to a considerably younger Asian woman, Hispanic to white in both directions, Asian women to white men, black women to white men. Considering the scant few inter racial marriages, and the relative casualness of my peek into their relationship, and the wide variety of racial/gender combinations, I could hardly speculate from my cursory interactions that my “personal experience” was true in all or most other inter racial pairings.
Sparkling Emerald says
Rose 141@Julia every single older white men I know personally who are involved with these Asian women when I have asked why thet like Asian women so much have given me the same answer.
That’s a rather RUDE question Rose. Are you sure they weren’t being SARCASTIC when they answered ? If I was dating outside of my race, and someone asked me such a rude thing, for example “Why do you like black men so much ?”, I would probably say, with a little bit of dry sarcasm the stereotypical thought that “Because they have huge ***** !” If the sarcasm was lost on someone, they could very well think that was my real reason. Maybe I should be careful with my sarcasm, lest someone take me seriously and I end up perpetrating a stereotype.
Goldie says
Rose, wow, talk about killing your credibility on this forum.
“Julia every single older white men I know personally who are involved with these Asian women when I have asked why thet like Asian women so much have given me the same answer.
” It is the child like niavity, submissivness taught by their culture and that do everything for their man. Shave them, put their socks on, speak only when spoken to first etc etc.””
Why do you associate with these idiots? Don’t you have anyone else to hang out with?
marymary says
Sparkling
It’s all true. I’m uber intelligent and my boyfriend does have a big thang.
J says
*stands up and slow claps for Clare #143*
For someone who is always ‘feeling’ and so dedicated to respect and ’emotional health’, Rose seems to know a lot of racist, drunken, abusive and small minded men that are oddly comfortable sharing that side of themselves with her.
Joe says
Rose, master of the whopper!
Rose says
No none were sarcastic, all were keen to talk about why they wanted to date Thai women and encoraging other single white men to do the same. And all had the same reasons and answers.
All used to go on regular trips to Thailand and come back openly talking about what they used to do., using brothels and how the women treated white men like Gods. Was eye opening chatting to them.,
All of the women in question they are now with were born in Thailand.
None of these men are my friends they are from various social actitivty groups that I attend. When getting to know people I am open to chatting with everyone in the groups I attend. Doesn’t mean I am going to form friendships with them because I attend the same social hobby groups. They are aqaintances. I have no control over who attends the groups I attend. All the women are lovely, much younger have had very poor lives with little education and are submissive and sweet.
Sparkling Emerald says
Rose – I’m going to pretend for a moment that I believe your little fairy tale. First of all, I can hardly keep a straight face, imagining sweet little Rose, chatting amiably with men about their adventures hopping from brothel to brothel, and then you innocently asking, “What is it about Asian hookers that your prefer over American hookers” ? First you say these men are “keen” to brag to you about their sexual conquests with their ignorant little Asian playthings, but earlier you said you interviewed all these men, and asked to specify what they liked about Asian women (which turns out to be just Thai women) and miraculously, they all gave the identical answer.
So did they just bring up the conversation out of the blue, how they went over seas and brought home a souvenir from a Thai brothel ? Did you lecture them about healthy relationships and respect ? You say that this is 100% all you have ever observed of Asian/Caucasion pairings. REALLY, you’ve never seen a non-Thai, non brothel worker Asian woman with a non Asian male ? That’s pretty hard to believe.
How many men did you interview and get the exact same answer from ? Do you believe that because the men you interviewed gave the exact same answer, that they represent 100% of the Asian/Caucasion pairings ? Sounds like “birds of a feather” to me. These men all hang out in your social group and go jet setting to Thai brothels, that could explain their uniform answers. They are all in the same frat-boy click.
I could interview 5 guys from the same Animal House frat who all loved to have ONS with blondes, and ask them, “Why do you prefer blondes over brunettes” and if they all said “Because blondes are so dumb and so EASY”, would it be safe to assume that all college age men who prefer blondes do so, because they think blondes are dumb and easy ? Or would it be a better assumption that I need to get out more, and meet more people ?
You also said:
All used to go on regular trips to Thailand and come back openly talking about what they used to do., using brothels and how the women treated white men like Gods
Honey, that’s what brothel workers get paid to DO ! If a man of any race pays her to treat him like a GOD, he gets treated like a GOD. If he pays her to treat him like a DOG (perhaps he’s dyslexic 😉 then she’ll put him on a leash and make him heel.
Not that I believe your story tho. Even tho’ Asian might be a minority, there’s still a lot of Asian women in this country from countries other than Thailand. Some are immigrants, some are of Asian descent and were born here. Lot’s of well educated, sharp as a tack, Asian women, and I can’t believe that the only smart, educated, not taken advantage of Asian women you have ever seen, were either uncoupled or paired up with an Asian man.
But if you are telling the truth, and have never seen an Asian woman paired up with a white man, unleash she was dumb, ignorant, young & Thai, then google Connie Chung. Just to open your eyes to the fact that your observations are not the sum total of the interacial couple world.
You think KE & Marymary are dumb uneducated Asians ? I’m just guessing that not every male they’ve been with has been Asian, so there you go, those are at least two Asian women you “know” who don’t fit your stereotype of the dumb niave Asian plaything being pimped out to white men.
Marymary @147 — I am SHOCKED ! How would you know how big your man’s “thang” is ?
Clare says
J 148
Thanks. Yes, I also find it odd and off that these “feelings” all seem to be in service of the same viewpoint.
Rose says
Sparkling Emerald, believe what you like.
All the men in question are older white men all went to Thailaind on holidays first and yes happily chatted about their adventures which they brought up. They initiate the conversations, I follow.
All of the men in question, eight in total over a period of two years now have Thai girlfreinds over here. Non of them want to marry them, or when replacing girlfreinds only date Thai women who are very young. Before this they were struggling to get girlfriends and dates.
I do not personally know any white man who has dated any other asian women other than Thai women. I know mixed race white and black. Not many though. I know more white women who date black men than the other way around.
I have not said all white men who date Asian/Thai women do so for this reason.
I have siad this has been my experience. If you think my experience is a fairytale, that is what you think. I can understand that, as if I hadn’t had this experience and someone else was sharing that they had experienced this I may well also think they were spinning a yarn.
I know asian women personally who were educated and brought up here who are not Thai but they do not date and are not married to white christian or agnostic men. They either date or are married to men of their own ethnic minority and religion.
Henriette says
Well, there is a lot to consider in the post. I’m delighted that it’s become such a lively discussion and that we have such a wide variety of viewpoints represented, here. I have lots of rambling but inter-connected thoughts to share on this subject.
I believe Rose’s experience is her experience. However, Rose’s experience of white men with Asian wives/girlfriends is almost diametrically opposed to mine. Here in Canada, there is a huge Asian population (in Toronto & Vancouver, especially: mostly of Hong Kong & mainland Chinese background). 25 years ago, the “trophy wife” in this part of the world was tall; blonde; lithe; tanned and athletic. Today, without a doubt, the “trophy wife” for successful white guys is smart; sexually assertive; Asian; below 5’3″ with long, glossy hair. These women are the opposite of submissive – they tend to be fun, spunky, educated and hard-working.
3 of my close friends are Asian women who’ve married white guys. What they’ve told me (and yes, I realise this is not at all a statistically significant sample size but I find it interesting, anecdotally) is that they really didn’t want Asian mother-in-laws (whom, they claim, tend to insert themselves in their sons’ marriages more than white mother-in-laws); that many Asian guys ~ even if raised entirely in North America ~ can be sexist and traditional in ways that fewer white guys are; that they knew their families would begrudgingly accept a white husband as long as he were educated and successful but that a non-white, non-Asian husband would always be made to feel unwelcome.
I was at university in the southern US in the 80s. I remember at that time, black women were taking a strong stand against the trend for black men to pick white girlfriends. They pushed back against the stereotype that black women are somehow more demanding and difficult than other women and challenged black men to look harder within their race for romantic partners. Heck, even Barack always dated white girls until he was told, in no uncertain terms, that he’d receive more support from the black community if he had a black wife.
Asian men do themselves no favours when they act like Asian women “owe them” to date within the race and use terms like “self-hating women” (#131) or “your ignorant white cock-sucking” !!!!!(#120) However, as more Asian men grow up with modern values and truly do not reflect the more traditional stereotypes often associated with their community, they might encourage Asian women to give them more of a chance in the dating realm. I find it terribly sad when people of any race/ ethnic group/ culture have biases against dating “their own.”
@Nicole 133 – Thank you; you’re right! Those of us who are not Asian are often told ~ either by inference or explicitly ~ that we (as a group) are somehow unfeminine, ugly, fat, poorly dressed, butch and graceless when contrasted with Asian women. Um, how charming! One non-Asian friend says, “Why would we want to date men who thought such ugly things? Let other women have them; guys who believe this are no prize!” But still, it stings to be looked at as inferior by so many men of my own race and I do wonder what we’ve come to when we narrowly define “femininity” along the lines of tight p*ssies & smooth skin & being astute in managing the way men can feel powerful around us (#83); what does that say about modern “masculinity?”?!?!
Ranzou says
We would be screwed either way if we played along and accepted their reasons, whatever makes them loss in their own world.
liam says
I’ve heard every excuse in the book (as we all have) as to why so many asian women are with non asian men:
it’s just a preference…i prefer non asian men
i grew up in a non-asian neighborhood so feel more comfortable with non-asians/whites
asian men are sexist/too shy/i just don’t find them attractive
if i dated an asian man it would feel like i was dating my own cousin (this one always stumps me!!!)
non-asian men are very interested in dating me
and so on
of course, it takes two to tango, and if so many men are ‘chasing’ asian women as they say, is it because the men truly have a thing for women who look asian (which surely some of them DO) or is some of it because the men know many asian women have a thing for THEM? Let’s face it…everybody loves to be desired, and many non-asian men know that asian women like them..simply BECAUSE these men are non-asian. And esp when it comes to white men…they are seen as trophies. And for those asian women who are a bit more rebellious or ‘freaky’ (esp Japanese women), more and more of them are going for ‘exotic’ and ‘dangerous’ big black men (oooohhhh….so forbidden and exciting!). yawn
i’v also noticed that there is a certain type of pseudo intellectual pseudo feminist asian woman who is very vocal about ‘yellow fever’ going on and on about how much they find it insulting. But 9 times out of 10, guess who these women date? NON asian men! I firmly believe that in fact these women have WHITE fever, but subconsciously they know that the best way to deflect atention from THEMSELVES and any potential questions as to why THEY seem to only date non-asian men…these women plant the idea in other peoples’ minds that the men are always chasing THEM…you know…since so many guys have ‘yellow fever’. Then no one will consider that maybe it was her who chased him. Asian women (like all women) have their own ways of letting guys know if they are interested in them or will be ‘receptive’ to their advances. And women (including asian women) are also very good at letting guys know when they would NOT be receptive. Many asian women won’t even give asian men the time of day.
I too find it a huge red flag when a non-asian man says he only dates asian women. And in fact, when ANY significant number of people from any group will not date their own kind (i.e., misogynistic white american men who will only date asian, self-hating trophy seeking black ball players who will only date light-skinned, and self-hating trophy seeking asian women who will only date white and who want ‘pretty hapa babies’, in all these instances it is THEY who have the serious issues….and NOT the opposite gender of their own race, who they tend to lambaste. It’s funny how no matter what the race/gender, it’s always the same talk…white american men blaming white american women for this and that….black men blaming black women for this and that….and asian women blaming asian men for this and that…. Believe me…I (white american female) have encountered my share of asshole white american men, but i’ve also encountered some great ones. Yet even with my BAD experiences, I would never ever discount ‘all white american men’ and refuse to date them again. But yet this is exactly what you find with a certain type of white american male, black male, and asian woman…who will categorically refuse to date their own kind. If all you encounter in your own group are ‘the bad ones’, you need to look at yourself.
josavant says
liam, you don’t sound like a white American female based on your comments. You sound like an Asian guy. A resentful one at that. No white woman writes about Asian women making “excuses” for who they date – because we don’t think Asian women owe us any explanation for their dating preferences. You wouldn’t use the word “excuse” if you didn’t think Asian women owed you something – and that points pretty clearly to you being an Asian guy who thinks you have some right to Asian women.
If you were an Asian woman encountering that type of attitude repeatedly from Asian guys, need you ask why they avoid you? That attitude is really creepy.
The other reason I can tell you’re not a white female is because if you were, you’d realize we have almost every option in the world open from a racial standpoint. Some men may prefer Asians, but that doesn’t mean they won’t date us. Asian men and black men and Hispanic men will date us. Sometimes, let’s be honest, we are viewed as the trophies, not Asians.
marymary says
Liam
Oi, I’m dating a black man and he is about as exotic as a loaf of bread.
Raj says
AS: Not every Indian speaks Hindi and the difference between moslem Indians and Hindu Indians is wider than between Indians and people from many other parts of the world…and the cultural difference between a Mizo and a Keralite is larger than between a Keralite and a white person…that is a fact.
ricky carver says
a sellout??? that’s absurd.I date only within my own race and that’s no more of a sellout any moreso than dating only outside one’s race..neither one is a sellout..it’s called preference!!only a moron would call it elsewise.(like racism,discrimination,etc)
Kiwi says
@ josavant
I agree that liam sounds like an Asian male (Liam is a male name). But he still raised valid points and I think you should not dismiss him so cavalierly.
In America:
1. Asian men are stereotyped as either ugly, nerdy, weak, and feminine or sexist, patriarchal, and dominating. (Note how the two stereotypes are contrasted and contradictory: Charlie Chan vs. Fu Manchu)
2. Asian women are stereotyped as sweet, submissive, and exotic. (They are also seen as tough, violent, temptresses: another contradiction in stereotypes, China Doll vs. Dragon Lady)
3. White men are presented as the ideal of masculinity by the media. They are seen as better mates than all races of men.
4. Many white men fetishize Asian women. (due to stereotypes)
5. Many Asian women (like all people of color) have to deal with internalized racism and will have a very positive view of white men and a very negative one of Asian men due to media stereotypes.
6. Most white women (like all women) are racist and refuse to date Asian men (They do not fetishize Asian men like white men fetishize Asian women. Why? Stereotypes.)
The result is that we have a vast gender imbalance when it comes to Asians dating. Asian men face greater stigma and rejection by all races of women, including Asian women. Most Asian males learn that the world of dating is slanted against them and may unfairly take it out on Asian women when in fact, most other races of women are even worse.
Also, because of the stereotypes, Asian men are seen as born misogynists, whereas white men just happen to be “better”. If some Asian men are sexist, that is blamed on the whole race. Asian women cite their experiences with a few individuals to exclude all Asian men. If some white men are sexist, they are given the benefit of the doubt. No matter how many sexist white men an Asian woman runs into, she will never exclude white men from her dating pool. This is not true for ALL people but it is common enough that it is a legitimate point of pain for Asian-American men to bring up. I believe only 30% of Asian women are like this (online dating studies of Asian women found a third explicitly exclude Asian men from their dating pool). I hope people can be more open minded in the future.
In the same boat says
I found this thread very interesting. I’m in the same boat as the OP. I’m a non-white female born and raised in North America who mainly attracts white guys, but unlike her, I AM attracted to most of the white guys who approach me. However, like the OP, I struggle with feelings of being a sell-out if I date a white guy, and I also fear that I may be seen as a fetish, novelty, exotized, otherized, and dealing with someone who may be actually be a racist, in spite of their attraction to me. I am light skinned, and I’ve often been mistaken for Greek, Italian, Jewish, Ukrainian, so the other side of the coin is when some of the white guys who I meet find out I’m not-white, they seem to be put off, like I’m some kind of a leper, and the dynamic between us almost immediately changes. It’s like I go from being an object of their attraction to one of revulsion. My heart just sinks when this happens. I feel dirty, denigrated, and dehumanized. Yeah I know, strong words, but I guess you’d have to have experienced this to comprehend just how it really feels.Then there’s the guys who are well-intentioned, but inevitably have something ignorant to say. And when I try to talk about racism and how we may handle it as a potential interracial couple, some get dismissive, defensive and even angry. Sometimes I feel it would just be easier if they had never showed any interest in me, never looked my way, and more importantly, that I wasn’t attracted back. But I’m 30 years old, and so far, who I’m mainly drawn to hasn’t really changed. Like a moth to flame.
Sean says
That’s rubbish, because I’m white, and all white guys are different. You have met the wrong ones for sure. White men like all different kinds of girls, no doubt. You see it everywhere.
In the same boat says
Another concern I have would be about fitting into each others social groups if a relationship were to come about. Most of my friends are not non-white and I tend to feel more comfortable around people of color. I just feel more at ease and that for the most part, they understand and accept me more. Almost all my friendships with whites have failed, and so I can’t help but wonder if a relationship would see the same fate. Having said, I worry that I may end up turning someone away who may actually love and accept me for who I am-not because of or in spite of my race, but who I may be resistant to due to some of the walls and defenses (even if they are there for understandable reasons) that I have up. Lastly, another major reason is being told that I would be disowned by my parents and community if I marry outside of it, and that my children could never be part of it unless their father is too. I don’t think I even want kids, so not sure how relevant that is, but I feel that’s it’s still something to consider and weigh. But yeah, like I said, I’m feeling torn and not entirely sure about the best way to proceed.
Friend of Jesus says
Mostly Chinese Women are pursing White Men. In fact most white men aren’t particularly interested in Chinese women but enjoy the free sex. In the long run you will not see and 70 year old white man and a 70 old Chinese woman still married.
Of the Asian race It mostly the Chinese who are stuck on seeking a white man. It appears to have something to do with lack of sophistication and low self esteem. Most of the other Asian groups, (Philippine, Japanese, Thai etc) are not stuck on seeking a white man and have shown more diversity in their selections.
So this thing about “am I betraying my race” is a legitimate question if you think along racial rather than human lines. There is only one race. The human race. It has many ethnicity and cultures. Being married to another human does not disband you from who you are ethically or culturally.
julian says
so u problem is u are an Asian woman that is into black and brown men, but u are finding that minority guys are not as into your race as white men are
Charlotte says
While I can appreciate that Stacy is stating her honest opinions, there is no denying that her comments are dripping with white privilege, consciously or not. Are there other people who have similar opinions? Yes, absolutely. Does it make it right? Not necessarily. I won’t go into the details of why the comment is offensive (and of a narrow-minded nature), but I do make my comment based on personal experience as well as professional experience having studied this topic somewhat extensively.
For Lily… I think that perhaps it would be beneficial for you to do some self-reflection on why this racial issue is so important to you in the context of dating, and why you feel like a “sell-out.” Examining your motives by seeking other opinions on this blog is a start I suppose 🙂 It seems to me, that you are experiencing some internal conflict over whether or not it is “right” to date certain men based on their race. Some part of you feels guilty or wrong, and that in itself is cause for examination. Until you come to terms with accepting who you are, what you like, and begin to see other men for who they are as a person, you’ll find dating to be a challenge.
I think that the most important thing, is to identify what values are important to you first, and then seek out men you find attractive and who have those values, regardless of their race. It’s not about being “colour-blind” but rather, seeing a person for who they are… someone who is influenced (but not defined) by their heritage and experiences, and celebrating that.
For myself, I am a westernized Asian who grew up in a neighbourhood where we were probably the only Asian family within a 1 km radius. Am I influenced by the culture and values of my family? Absolutely. It’s a part of my life, and influences the way I experience and see the world. But, do I necessarily agree with all those ideas? No. As a result, I find it difficult to connect with other individuals who come from more traditional Asian families (friend or date) or non-Asians who aren’t open to understanding a different culture, because their world views are in conflict with my personal value system.
My boyfriend is Caucasian, but we are compatible because he shares my values. The family structure we would have one day, would be so different from the one that I grew up with. A few of his close friends are Asian, so he’s somewhat familiar with the cultural “quirks” so to speak. We both find each other attractive, and I’m pretty sure that any preconceived notions or stereotypes he may or may not have had about female Asians were dashed pretty quickly… I’m a bit of a unique and spunky duck, haha. He’s had a life with a lot of white male privilege, and doesn’t always understand some of my experiences (e.g. how as a minority, you sometimes need to work twice as hard, to get half as far). But, we balance each other out. He’s incredibly intelligent, has a good career, but is definitely not the over-achieving professional type (which I am). And I’m glad. Because of him, I relax more and don’t work as much all the time, and because of me, he takes on extra projects to learn new things.
Long story short, find someone that you’re attracted to, who shares similar values, complements your personality (even if they’re not exactly the same), and makes you feel happy. Let go of what you think you “should” be doing, and go do what you really want deep down inside. Good luck!
Sean says
Love the last paragraph. Nailed it.
janey says
I don think any of you truly understand what she’s even talking about (including evan) I think she’s feels guilty for liking white men cause deep down she knows she likes them for THE WRONG REASONS. Want the cold hard truth girl? Your attraction to white men, and non attraction to pretty much EVERYONE ELSE, is based on your generalizations about race. You feel like a guilty sell out because deep down you know it’s true that you see white men as better choices simply for being white. You said yourself ” white men are more devoted” “white men love me” (really? every single one? David Beckham too?) “minorities have the same psychological problems i have” really? you think white people are the sweet tempting kryptonite for the rest of us as well? Cause, they’re all just such great catches right? Look, not even trying to be a jerk. Speaking from experience here, if you really want that true love void of racial influence (or any other influence for that matter) you need to not worry about the “im single and alone” monster, and do some SERIOUS introspection before you even THINK about dating ANYONE. Ask yourself why you don’t like men who look like you? Why do you feel like any pick from “x” ethnicity will do the trick? Do you see your romantic prospect as an individual? or, a “White Guy”? Judging by your question and the background you gave, I suspect latter, and am baffled the commenters (as well as this evan guy) cannot see that. I assure you, there are plenty of asian/other men, capable of devoting themselves to you just as much as a “white guy,” you’ve probably passed up quite a few by now cause you’ve got your eye on the “prize” … whatever that is… Im all for interracial love, but then again i remember, there no such thing. love is love plain and simple. Most people who “date interracially” say “im colorblind” because usually when it comes to dating its only a select few colors they see, and their own is usually NOT one of them. Im “black” and my husband is “indian” but we see ourselves as a union, not a mating strategy for “optimal biracial offspring” and before him ive dated plenty black asian and WHITE men who were no where near what I really needed in life.
Hope you get what you truly desire in life sweet heart!
It's you says
Evan, just read this post and I really want to know. Is it that Jewish women don’t want to marry out? Or is it that Jewish women have traditionally been shamed into not marrying out far more than Jewish men have? Black women have traditionally been shamed into not marrying out (specifically white men) while black men make no apologies for dating out (though 85% of black men still marry black women) and I think it’s very similar. Am I wrong?
Evan Marc Katz says
No, they actually want Jewish men. It’s not just society.
It's you says
Why do you think that is?
Jayden Fong says
Just try and keep an open heart.
Nia says
So Asain women only date white dudes to mixed babies to create super race and for their perceived advantage from white dudes wow
phph says
liam #152. “I’ve heard every excuse in the book (as we all have) as to why so many asian women are with non asian men:”
Holy shit. Are you sure you are a white american woman? You know our problem so damn well. Many asian man even buy into the stereotypical bullshit excuse that asian women use, when they decide to go along the eurocentric beauty standards for man.
Asia is patriarchal and bad towards women? Ya, right. Philippines has always ranked higher than USA in gender equality. The gender gap report by WEF have consistently have Philippines much higher every single year. If you are gold digging and buy into that racial propaganda that white features looks better, then just come out with it. Don’t try to make yourself sound progressive.
phph says
To the author. Better physiological traits? That’s really backwards view about genetics. Most or all of that “physiological” difference between races can be reduced down to dietary reasons and media stereotypes. It is unfortunate that you are very backwards in this matter.
Sean says
Genes are inherited. That’s why you look like your parents.
Sean says
I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. Love your website Evan, a great help! I’m an Anglo/Saxon male and I live in a very diverse society. I grew up mainly around Europeans and my own kind. I subconsciously only dated my own kind mostly, apart from some Italian girls. Of which I love their people and culture!
I read a really good quote recently and it struck me hard – ‘Love is blind…’. And it’s so true. I think, you have to think far into the future. What will this spouse want to do with their life? Will they be happy to do what you want to do. Will your parents get along? How do you feel about the different cultural backgrounds? Will their own parents get along with yours? She/he must fit in with your lifestyle. I’ve met some girls who come from cultures so different from my own kind, that you cannot relate to them at all. And it felt uncomfortable, especially knowing that my own kind could relate totally to everything I have ever known. So you must feel comfortable with each other. Also if you marry someone from overseas, where will you live? Will you be forced to migrate to their extremely foreign country in the middle of nowhere? Somewhere of which, you would never consider moving. These are all important things to think about. I’m not against any marriage. But I would say, think far into the future, how will that effect your marriage…
Lyra says
Hi Lily
I actually read the comments section for this article cause many people were spitting fire. Fun to see. Anyway something you said struck me; it was about white men who are attracted to you are decent, average men and the non-white men whom you are attracted to (let’s say the top 5%) prefer white women. I sensed a little agitation because obviously you think highly of yourself and you want what you want, but you are not getting it. And yet the clock is ticking and you are thinking whether to settle or not. I can’t say I haven’t experienced the similar situation like you; I did and yes at some points I felt a little ticked off. However I have realized that most things I want are a reflection of how I see myself. I want these superficial qualities because I thought I was not good enough. I wanted validation instead of fulfillment. I am here not to tell you to embark on a spiritual journey to reflect on yourself; I guess what I want to say is that; just embrace yourself. There is a possibility of you keep searching for the one coveted well to do non white male who understands you and you will marry him. There is a possibility of not finding him and you end up settling for somebody and still be happy nonetheless. There is a possibility of you not finding what you want and unable to change how you feel. And it is okay. Embrace all the frustrations for now and then decide on which path to go.
Rylee says
I’m white, but I’m just not attracted to white guys, based on my experiences dating them. My current relationship is with a Hispanic guy, and it’s the best one I’ve ever had.