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Categories: Sex Tags: sex, sex advice, when to have sex
The end of Wednesday’s blog post brought up a very important topic; perhaps the most common question I get asked by women whenever I give a speech:
How do you know when it’s okay to sleep with a guy?
I discussed this back in March, but most of you weren’t reading then. So forgive me for recycling, but my views haven’t changed, and you definitely want to get in on this discussion…
No doubt about it: The first time a woman beds down with a guy she’s crazy about is an exciting and special time. Still, the question remains: When? Well, it depends. Some women are happy to get down to business the night they meet; others will wait weeks or months before doing the deed. Whatever a woman’s decision, we had to wonder: Does the double standard still exist today? In other words, if a woman knocks boots with a guy too soon, does she automatically nix her chances for long-term love—or is that old-fashioned nonsense in today’s modern-day dating scene? To find out, we grilled three women about the ups and downs of when they get down to business… and what they said may surprise you.
My two cents on the whole thing?
Men are sexual hypocrites. They push women for sex, then blame them for having sex. They’re particularly stuck on the idea that if a woman hops into bed with them quickly then she must have done this with lots of other men as well. This lowers her value in his eyes. After all, if everyone can have her, she can’t be all that special, can she?
Men are sexual hypocrites. They push women for sex, then blame them for having sex.
On the other hand, I also know from personal experience that if a guy is crazy about a girl, and they move really fast, all the rules go out the window. In fact, this is the way MOST of my relationships have started. But then, I’ve always been determined not to be hypocritical when a woman has the same lack of morals I do. I love women with loose morals.
The sex question is a popular one because it comes up in every dating situation. However, there’s no set timetable or finite number of dates that will let you know when it’s time to give it up. I know one woman who was told by an “expert” to wait 10 dates before sleeping with the man she was dating. The guy dumped her her after 7. …
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Oh how timely! Being newly back on the dating scene I’ve been wrestling with this as not only a personal moral issue but also wanting to know other perspecitves. “Your sole responsibility before having sex is to figure out if hes interested in YOU or in SEX.” Excellent point and one to never forget. So far it’s been and easy distinction to make! Thanks for the great column.
Hi Evan,
Thanks so much for this provocative, thoughtful post!
As for me — a 35 year old single mom — I’ve never been very good at keeping boundaries when it comes to sex. I’ve had loads of fun, but I’ve also gotten hurt. Badly.
Nowadays, especially as a single parent, I’m learning how to have boundaries. This is what helps: carrying around a quote from Liz Gilbert’s book, Eat, Pray, Love.
“When I get lonely these days, I think: So be lonely, Liz,” Gilbert writes. “Learn your way around loneliness. Make a map of it. Sit with it, for once in your life. Welcome to the human experience. But never again use another person’s body or emotions as a scratching post for your own unfulfilled life.”
I’ve used men as scratching posts. I’ve let myself be used as a scratching post.
Ouch.
I agree with your comments totally Evan. Women need to let go of this “time limit” that some often impose on themselves and just let live. I, personally, have waited months and I’ve also waited a couple of weeks to sleep with people I’ve dated. The guy that I waited months for, we ended up breaking up a few weeks later. The one that I only waited a couple of weeks for, we actually ended up being together for quite a while. It goes without saying though, that women have this tendency to put their “goods” on a pedastal without really thinking that maybe the guy they’re dating could be horrific in bed, but may never know because they’re waiting several weeks or months for the right moment when everything should go together. Sex is too important in a relationship to place conditions on.
I have learned that there is no right moment or time. Sometimes, things just happen, and that is often how we learn. My philosophy is to stay aware of what a man’s intentions are, but at the same time, live and let live. No need to obsess about timelines in relationships, because that’s when people get dumped and feelings are hurt.
My answer: Do it when it feels right.
It may be my responsibility before having sex to figure out if hes interested in me or in sex but it’s also my responsibility to figure out how interested in him I am. Few guys will say “No, I’m not ready”, but the door does open both ways.
Determining sexual compatibility can be an important part of forming a relationship. Sometimes I want to get to know him on a physical level as I’m getting to know him on a personal one. Whether that’s on the second date or the fifth, I’ll do it when it feels right and natural, not when I think I “should” or when he think so.
You know, you can always do what the bible says to do and save sex for marriage. I know, foreign concept, but it has it’s advantages…just think how clearly you’d be able to see the guy and who he really is if there was no sex involved? And for the guys, same thing. Would our decisions be the same, especially in marriage partners? I doubt it. We’d all see a little clearer. I only wish I could follow His wishes, which, so far, have eluded me. I sometimes wonder why our sex drive is so strong?
Evan, swell post. To your statement: “Your sole responsibility before having sex is to figure out if hes interested in YOU or in SEX,” I would add, “… and behave accordingly to protect your own heart, ’cause ain’t nobody else gonna protect it for you.”
Cheers, Evan! Women’s sole responsibility is to figure out if the guy is really interested in us or just sex. And i love what BEENTHRUTHEWARS added, “to behave accordingly in order to protect your own heart coz ain’t nobody can protect it for you.” Especially that nowadays, the world’s getting doomer and almost all guys are just after sex without emotion. Sex is a good thing, that is supposed to be shared by two people licensed on it. What i mean, is married couples. I know, the westerns have liberal views on this one. I am not here to debate about it but just sharing of the true, profound profile of sex. I hold the Bible-based view anyway. That sex is created as a bonus for 2 married couples. Extracting from Evans’ pointview that we are to figure out responsibly a real man, then why not follow what is the truth. It’ll really protect your heart. If a guy leaves you because you don’t give into him then it’s not our loss. We may feel hurt but it’s just transient. That guy doesn’t deserve us and we don’t deserve him. We should not settle out less than what is planned for us. Some people just have a worldy definition of happiness. Many people get a mistake on this and so, in return they are hurt. Man has a strong sex drive, that is because of the things seen,heard, read. the battle is not really on the flesh but on the minds.
Peace!!
I firmly believe that it doesn’t matter when you have sex with a guy. If he’s going to call you again, he will. If he’s not going to call you again, he won’t.
I agree with this article and my personal motto too is no sex until I’m in a committed relationship. My problem is, the men I meet make it clear up front that they’re just in it for the sex. My common complaint is that I never really feel that the guys into me.
Hey
Great minds think alike. I wrote the same thing the other day. Now i know why you and I are friends and in the same business!!!
Good stuff EMK!!!
David Wygant
Well, Paul hit the nail on the head. I have been following the bible’s recommendations on holding off on sex until marriage. Unfortunately I’ve been having a very hard time finding a man who’s willing to live that lifestyle while he’s with me. Most guys respect me for sticking to my guns, admire my reasoning, just can’t seem to forsake their own sexual drive. Alas!
Every man is different, every woman is different, every situation is different… there is no wrong answer, there is no right answer….
When I am around women, they think that they know what they want. Yet, when they get it, it is not what they wanted at all. I see too many people, women and men, chasing after something that they think they want because it is on television or a person next to them has it.
In the end, this is not sex in the city. These are real people, with real problems, with real lives. Nothing is ever perfect. Some relationships go down hill the moment sex is introduced, while others will never take off without it.
You can never tell when it is right. It might be great to go for it within the first 5 minutes you meet someone, or it might be better to wait 5 years after you meet that special someone.
I am a guy, I am a male. It is all in how you intriduce yourself to a guy.
I have had girls introduce themselves to me by showing me their breasts while they are asking me questions. Well, I am not going to try to really get to know them and I am only going to really get one thing out of them before I move on. Granted, they have gotten my attention. Yet, they got pissed at me when I tried to get into their pants.
On the other extreme, I have had ladies act real professional towards me. After a few months, they get pissed at me because I never made a move or asked them out.
When should a woman have sex with a man? It all depends on how you are presenting yourself and what you want in the end. Do you want to grab a man’s attention? If you offer to have sex with him the first time you meet him, you are going to grab his attention.
I personally think that you can not sleep with a guy and he will/wont call and you can sleep with him and he will/wont call… I dated a guy for two years who I never slept with, he still wanted to date me, I slept with my now fiance on our first date 4 years ago… I think the key is working out if they really like you, if they really do and they are a nice guy they will wait or be just so happy you want to sleep with them too!
If you are attractive enough, he will date with you after sleeping with you. If not, he may diappear! Men always use nether part to consier all things including relationship!
Wow, well in any case I meant a man we talked for many weeks befor we meant up.Yes an on line dateing thing. Went on a date then came back the next time and stayed over with him. I had only had one man my hole life and walked out on me and I wanted see what I had been missing. I’ve been seeing this man for 4 months now. Its been hard but also been really good for me. He is like a best friend. We do have our ups and down because yes I want more and he got a lot to deal with right now with other proubles as I do myself. We both have kids and other poeple that are casing trouble for us but they are out of our lives all togthere. I live in USA and he lives in Canada which make thing even harder but when we are togthere he tells me how he missys me so much and even calls .. some times was to much in one day. Is he in love or what… Been very careful because we both have our childer to think about too. I’m can say I do love him and his son. But I was in love with him befor I very meant him in person! Q: What should I do ? We talk mostly thourgh e-mails or chat on line. He works long hours and live at home with mom and dad so he can keep his 4 year old son from his ex.
Would a non lesbian or bizsxual woman date a man?
NOOOOOO
Then is sex from the very first date.
The question is to have sex intercourse the very first date or later.
I think better as soon as possible, because it can be bad sex, or not as good as you would like, and next dates, if there are, would show you the real man.
Cheating your desire to force him to cheat his love is all cheating. If you are there and you want sex, and he does want sex, just do it, enjoy it, and if someone is old fashioned play role reverse. For example:
I won’t think you are a bitch if we make love, I’m a good person and I do like sex with men I do like, but if you would consider you are not prepared yet becouse you have some moral troubles I will understand.
Or something like that as funny as you can.
The question is Do you like sex? or Are looking for a daddy love ? and sex is the price.
If you do not like sex, and it is only a price for having a daddy. Do not have sex on first date, and never, incest, even in a imaginary mode is really a bad moral behaviour .
Date #6 is good. Soon enough to know if you like the guy and he likes you. Wait months into the relationship, and you and he are already emotionally involved. If the sex is crap, dumping him will be so much more difficult at that point (which I think is why so many women end up in relationships that aren’t satisfying to them sexually — too afraid to hurt the guy’s feelings!)
I am convinced that it does not matter when to have sex – first or tenth date. Here is how I look at it; if a guy likes you, it doesn’t matter if you have sex on the first date. He will call you again, especially if sex was good. If he does not like the woman all that much, he can still have a one night stand with her. It doesn’t matter if she does or does not have sex with him; he will not call her again anyway, and not because she put out of the first date, but because he does not like her.
From my own experience, all of my long term relationships since my last divorce resulted from what I perceived as one night stands. On the other hand, a guy friend of mine once told me about a woman he had slept with on a second date. He said that after that he was not going to see her again. When I asked why, he said sex was not good, but I take it that he was not really interested in HER in the first place, and only wanted sex.
The tricky part when deciding whether to have sex on the first date or not is that you really don’t know how a guy feels about you and whether he really likes you or just wants a quick lay. If he really likes you, he’ll continue seeing you even if you have sex too soon. If he does not like you, withdrawing sex will NOT keep him around.
Dating Advice, You wrote:
“The tricky part when deciding whether to have sex on the first date or not is that you really dont know how a guy feels about you and whether he really likes you or just wants a quick lay. If he really likes you, hell continue seeing you even if you have sex too soon. If he does not like you, withdrawing sex will NOT keep him around.”
True. But some women prefer NOT to have sex with a guy who won’t stick around. And since you don’t know how he really feels on the first date, why do it? If he drops you after the first date because you withheld sex, GOOD, better to find out what he was about right off.
By contrast, after you get to know him somewhat better (whatever # of dates that might be), you may have a much better sense of how he really does feel about you and how likely he is to stick around.
“But some women prefer NOT to have sex with a guy who wont stick around.”
Stick around? What guarantees will he give you? Will she give you? Collateral? Pormissory note, what?
Reality is there are no guarantees. Cold, yet true.
Yes Vino,
I have to agree; reality is there are no guarantees. I’d like to believe that when *most* people marry, they do so believing they will stay together until death parts them, at least at the time they vowed it. But with divorce statistics at 50%, it seems half of those sincere couples are later proved wrong.
Still, you took my quote out of context. It was in response to the person calling herself Dating Advice regarding having sex on the first date. I’ll stand by the theory that you might have a better sense about someone sticking around (at least for awhile), if you actually spend some time getting to know them, as opposed to just saying “Why not?” and sleeping with a virtual stranger on the first date.
If you don’t care if it turns out to be nothing more than a one night stand (like Dating Advice) who cares? But some women (and men), ARE bothered by sleeping with someone who dumps them shortly afterward. For those folks, I wouldn’t say first date sex is well suited for them. That’s all.
Selena,
Actually, I meant the comment in the same context you used it (first date/early in dating). It also happens to apply to marriage.
I happen to agree with your conclusions.
To Paul,
I have heard of the biblical statememt, but, no sex ’till marriage, doesn’t that, create a somewhat, social paralysis for some people? I mean, one has the hots so bad, that, social functioning comes to a stand still…
to Paul,
….I am talking, lots and lots of young men(and some old), struggle with this…
to Paul,
..given, no one has ever died of no sex….
I was recently racking my brain with this very question, and was rewarded by my correct decision on how to handle my current situation. I think the mentality of Evan here is perfect; throw out the rules, and just use the instincts that were given to us by Nature.
A girl I met New Years recently came back in to the picture, and I believe there was some residual chemistry from our first meeting. I’ve been dating her for only a few weeks, but we’re just electric together with our eye contact, conversation and general attraction. As a result, I think our timeline was significantly reduced w/ both the long-term simmering that went on between New Years and now, and the satisfaction of having our thoughts finally realized. Our first time was amazing, and I still look at her exactly how I did when I first met her New Years. That’s how you gotta play it; just be aware of her readiness, in combination with your own, and then just be open and communicate about it. As long as the girl knows what you’re there for, things will be fine!
“How do you know when its okay to sleep with a guy?”
It’s ALWAYS okay to sleep with a guy!
Rusty…go soley by your instincts? Are you kidding? Then what’s the difference between us and animals?
Hunter is right, no one has ever died by not having sex. The only way you can not have sex is with Gods help. You could never do it alone. The drive is too strong. I don’t think as long as someone could sit here and explain it to women, they will never understand what it’s like… men are conquestors. We’re wired to be into conquest and if it wasn’t for that we’d all still be in mud huts. Just think how much more power you would have if you never had sex with the woman? When you have sex with her, in a way, she owns you. She controls things now…she owns the candy jar! You just want more of it…you’ve tasted the sweet stuff! You owe her something actually. You, in a very real way, took something from her and she knows it. And now it’s sooooo good that you will do anything, compromise just about anything, to keep the sex coming (no pun intended). Don’t bow down to societies norms. The hard way (again, no pun intended), just as in the hard decisions, are usually the right ways, or decisions. The easy way out, in this case to have sex, never is the best decision. Can you imagine what it would be like on your honeymoon, if you had honored God, and you actually got His blessing on your sex life? It would be better than you ever could imagine. Remember, He is the one who invented sex! He wants us to have sex, and enjoy the heck out of it…and in fact there is specific instructions from God (I think specifically to women…ha ha) to have sex and have sex regularly, only stopping for prayer and fasting, then to have a plan on when it is to commence again…it is that important! Just in the right context. It is to keep temptation out of your minds/marriage, and frankly, to enjoy for pleasure’s sake. It is for our own good not to have sex out of marriage…how much better would the world be if there was never anyone having sex outside of marriage? Lets see…no adultry, no STD’s, no unwanted pregnancies or babies born without fathers…on and on. And that my friends is the truth according to GOD.
Honestly I can’t handle sex without emotions UNLESS I’m on the prowl (hormones) which hasn’t been something I have been on in a very long time and I can only think of one instance were the guy called back but as soon as I became nice with him he turned on me and gave me the boot, later came back but was only looking for more sex.
I personally can’t deal with sleeping with men I have dated, I already know if I sleep with him well I like him and he’s a potential for me so I prefer not to sleep with a guy unless I know in my heart that I don’t care to get that call again. Plus I don’t like other mens scent and energy on me which in some cases is very negative.
I’m not the bible belt type either, marriage before sex but I can say that waiting has its benefits. Unfortunately the Samantha Jones of the world are next to nil, most women want more, desire commitments with men they sleep with. I have used to relationships to cure my loneliness and I know for sure thats not that answer.
I say date, have fun, stop worrying about if he calls, just go with it but be aware of your feelings and emotions and always be honest with yourself. Bottom line is if you know your skin is thin like mine well its probably best to not have sex until you can function it all out, alteast thats what I have chosen to do.
Evan i think thats a wonderful standard to have.
“Find out if the man is interested in you or in the sex”
I don’t like the term dating rules. But if there was one rule to live by when it comes to this issue, THAT would be it!
thanks for sharing….
Hot Alpha Female
It’s so ture and well said that there are no actual rules for when to have sex for the first time. It all depends on the indviduals and the circumstances. I personally prefer deeper connectedness with a guy and of course some level of commitment. But agian others might feel differently about it. The best way is to go by our own instincts and decide according to that. The bottom line is whenever you have sex, enjoy it without getting hurt emotionally.
Totally 100% Paul has it right. If a guy really cares, he will wait til marriage. I live in liberal SF California and – surprise – know a LOT of people who have waited til marriage, and NO SURPRISE they all have MUCH better marriages than those who, eh, took the honeymoom before they got married.
Real love can wait. And, guys, there’s no bigger turn off to women than a guy who’s weak about sex. Learn to go for a jog, take a cold shower, and perhaps say a prayer now and then. I promise, you will have no regrets!
Hello Ladies,
Welcome to the leftovers of the women’s movement. Instead of a guy treating you like a lady and trying to provide a good home, you are now treated like bitches and ho’s. It will take a very long time to heal the wounds of the seventies and eighties. You can start by not sleeping with a guy unless you really care for him. So many of you say, ” Does he want me or sex” ????? Are you really that stupid!? The males in practilcaly every species is designed to want sex with HIS perception of the fittest female. It may be a nice full figure, it may be a twigy and some it just might be big boobs. The thing is men think of sex on an average of 3 seconds for every minute he is awake. Women on an average of 14 seconds and hour. This is in a normal enviroment not one where you may be looking for sex, example; doing math in your cubicle with no opposite sex photos or work mates, or wiring up a building with no females around. The answer will always be HE WANTS SEX! It is up to you to make him want REAL sex with you. This is accomplished by not caking on make up, wearing push-up bras, gel or water filled bras, hi-heals, control top pantyhose, hair extensions, and definitely not acting un-interested. Playing hard to get only works on guys that want to conquer you or notch their bedpost. If you truely want someone to love you for who you are… be you! Let them know what they see is what they get, don’t be affraid to experiment and make him happy. News flash, the more you make him happy the more he will want to make you happy. If he is selfish then you will need to cut back as he does. Let his actions speak for yours but please DEAR GOD do not use the pussy as a weapon. If you try he will screw your best friends, your sister, maybe your mother and don’t leave him alone with the cat. There is only one offense worse than using sex as a weapon and that is cheating. Remember though, just like women we want support and affection. Don’t be like the stupid females and think he will pick up on the things you want. Men are intelligent but very simple. We do not have the social skills, verbal skills, intuition or need to please like women. We can be programmed if you tell us what you want by making a certain look at the same time. After about five times we will know that look and respond. The key answer though on when to give it up is, it is not a date or number, especially a pre-set number. It is when you feel confident the two of you are ready and if he doesn’t call again you will be okay with it. If you are squriming your bar stool cause your crotch is burning and the guy seems to be what you want go for it. Make sure one of you has protection, it may be the last time you see him. If you are truely after love and happiness, he will wait, trust me! If I could find the perfect woman for me, I could wait five years. Love is not sex but sex is part of love. It is a way to communicate intimately what we have trouble finding in words. Women can usually find some words but they have the need for intimate communication also. Don’t let being horny dictate. Yes men want sex and yes if is too easy they will worry more about how easy the next guy can get you into his bed. Not so much how many you have been with because both men and women lie about the number. Be a lady in company and a slut in bed and if he loves you it will last. Be a slut in company and a lady in bed and his interests may wander.
Well, I am done and I wish all who read this the best of luck and hope you all find the right one. The world would be a better place.
Take care,
Chance
Why do some women believe sex is something of a commodity, to either grant or withhold from men? What if the tables were turned?
Sex is used too much as a tool (I’ll give it if you’ll stay, I won’t if you don’t/won’t stay) – that’s just silly. Why is it so difficult for a man to find a woman to have sex with?
@brian because men can be assholes
I think all men are assholes, the only variation is to what degree. However, when it comes to sex and matters of the heart I am blessed with two brothers who I have been fortunate to observe over the years. Evan and Chance (#35) are spot on. I have witnessed my older brother dump a smart, sweet attractive woman (long term relationship) faster than you can blink an eye for a slut. Within 3 weeks he proposed to the slut and had been dating the other woman for several years!!! LOL I believe a man knows when he knows, it’s all not planned out. (My brother is not smart enough to actually plan a maneuver like this!) It does not matter when you sleep with him. If sex doesn’t deepen his attachment to you, NOTHING else will. You just havnt met the right guy yet.
gr8 thoughts! i lost my virginity to a guy last yr just coz he told me he is a virgin too and he wants to just experience once. i loved him and gave him all i could for last one and half year . things turned bad and loveless,i could feel only lust from his side and a lot of pressure in bed, he dumped me and now confessed that he ws not a virgin …. i made a mistake , and just realised alot of stuff after reading all these blogs . i didnt wanted to lose it before marriage.
“I think all men are assholes, the only variation is to what degree.”
Does that mean you’ve stopped dating them? I only ask because if I thought someone was an asshole, I wouldn’t want to waste any time in their presence.
No of course I havn’t stopped dating men, I am heterosexual. Allow me to rephrase, all men have an “assholish” side to them. Is that better? And if you ask men, they will say all women have a “bitchy side.” It is what it is. We are all only human and we have weaknesses.
Shanu, #39 just a quick note to reply to your situation. When it comes to men, believe none of what they say and only half of what they do. You will be just fine. This experience will make you stronger and you have learned alot.
Let me be clear. Whether it is animal or humans all the living organisms in this world are made for each other to live. its just we humans got thinking power than animals and made our self different species. Due to social, cultural and economical changes, Sex is looked in multiple angle. What ever the chemistry we all talk. it might not exist at the later stage in life. We humans have some animal nature inside our heart. This vary across men and women. When you start a relationship, men and women attract each other for sex, sharing of life etc.. but when time travels, we face so many social and work challenges. Of course, economic challenges. If men and women who thinks all about this and serious about having sex together by considering all these factors. There won’t any cheating. If they do lie to get sex or temporary satisfaction. They are going to break up. During the date, we spend lot of time is attracting each with our physique, style, color , structure etc.. but we always fail to discuss the day to day things in life. So many factors such as, food habit, cleanliness, type of life, style, social life style, etc.. are important to discuss during date.
If both men and women agree, then you have sex and continue. At this point they both are going to clear, what they want in life before or after having sex. So be creative in dating. Don’t any ways blame men for cheating women or women for cheating men.
These are basics of life before getting attracted. Thats why historically culture was formed and some religions are following it. Even though some Negatives are there. After all life is not about sexual desires. But, some people argue with western attitude of open approach to sex.
I am not gonna say which one is right, which one is wrong. All i am trying to say is that, BE CLEAR and TALK EVERYTHING.
Hope this helps
freedom to love vs lack of freedom to love. it dont mean a thing with out a ring.
Last night I cancelled a date with a girl I had been seeing about 2 months and told her I didn’t think we were right for each other. Why? I realized that we didn’t have the right chemistry for one. I guess in the end that was the real reason. But lack of sex was the straw that broke the camel’s back. She wouldn’t even take off her top.
Sex isn’t everything, but it is the most visceral, direct form of intimacy us guys know. Moreover, I have had too many experiences of girls who seemed to want me as little more than a friend for them, but who wouldn’t show me even the slightest commitment by going that extra step.
Who knows? Maybe me and that girl would have been able to have some more chemistry together if she had opened up a little more to me?
I’ve never had a girlfriend, so I would give my left arm to be in a committed relationship. But if a woman won’t have sex after months, that tells me that she doesn’t see me as a man. I refuse to be the guy who buys her dinner, takes her out, cooks and gives her everything I have only to be told “let’s just be friends” at the end of the road.
Take heed ladies: withholding sex is a double-edged sword. You can’t test his commitment without having yours tested in the process.
Consider that your refusal to have sex is also a sign of lack of commitment on your part, and if the guy picks up on that lack of commitment, it may drive him away from you if he’s serious, just as surely as it will drive him away if he’s not serious.
So my suggestion is to wait, but don’t wait too long or you risk losing something good.
Had a second date with awomen two nights ago that turned into a night of sex. The next day, I called her and she told me she regrets what happen and how upset she is for allowing me and her to get into this situation without actually getting to know one another. She told me she does not feel comfortable seeing me again. Before it happened, everything was dandy! What do you guys think is going on?
@David #45
It is very difficult for most people to say “Hi, my name is blank, lets have a booty call”.
If a man had said the things your liaison said to you most people would conclude that she was just out for a booty call, but didn’t know how to handle the maneuver successfully while being 100% upfront about it.
Uh, maybe she’s having second thoughts? Did you slip her a mickey or something?
I know this is not a booty call. I know that. She and I talked again the next day after she has given some thoughts as to what she said the day before aboutnot wanting to see me again. She has agreed to meet for lunch and coffee this weekend strictly as friends. She told me she felt like I invaded her boundary and I am way too fast for her taste. I might be but damn I am a guy, we fall for this kinda shit. I like this chic but what I am hearing from her is that I will now never respect her the way she wants to be respected. I don’t want this to end but sure as hell sounds like it’s headed that way…
Joe,
Nah! I did not slip her a mickey. I am a decent guy, alright?
David #48
If she didn’t want to have sex, and she’s so upset about it now, why didn’t she just say no in the first place?
David – why is she telling you how you feel? She might guess/worrythat you won’t respect her, butI’m not getting from your posts that you actually feel that way at all. Hmmmm.
Ava #50
She said I instigated it and she lost self control. Obviously, I am to be blamed for it. She only started to get upset the next morning and got worst as the day progressed. She is better now but very distant.
Kristyn #51
I have no idea why she thinks this way. I only had two dates with her. She has shared with me that her ex was very abusive towards her so my guess is that she is really seeking a guy who will respect her. I told her that it will not be an issue but I don’t think she trust me yet to believe what I said. She has hit the reset button on me and is distancing herself. Does not want to see me tonite as planned. Do you have any advise? I am a guy so cannot speculate what’s really going on in her mind.
I’m a girl and cannot speculate what is in her mind.
If you are really interested, my advice would be to show her that you mean what you say – but how to do it if she is discounting both your words AND your actions, I don’t know. And I don’t know that I’d be interested in putting in time making up for someone else’s behavior.
Just my thoughts.
Kristyn #54
Thanks for the advise. It’s hard to show interestwhen she is isolating herself. We talked this morning.She is now saying that we have a personality conflict and won’t be a good fit long term. She says I am too fast for her pace and that she needs someone who is more laid back. After two dates and a night of sex, I have been judged and given a title “Aggressive”. Wehaveagreed not to see each other again.Kristyn, you are right. I am not sure if I want to invest time to correct someone else’s behavior. Lessons learned from this is not to have sex the first several dates until you have had the time to get to know each other. It can hurt cause before and after that night, I was talking to two different person.
David,
Since you have only had two dates with her and you are already working way too hard to figure her out , I think you need to move on. I have a feeling that if you keep trying to catch her, you are just setting yourself up for headaches and heartaches. Walk away and find a woman who isn’t carrying so much baggage.
David,
Perhaps she’s ambivalent about dating you, ambivalent about sex, or both. Sounds like she let her hormones rule for the night and now instead of taking responsibility for it, is choosing to “blame” you. If she’s distancing herself – let her. This is your red flag that this chick has “issues”.
David #53
Something about this situation smells fishy to me. Does it make sense to you that someone who is so upset about having casual sex has done exactly that? And that she doesn’t want to take responsibility for her own choices? Perhaps she is “just not that into you”, or has unresolved issues about her past abusive relationship. I’d back off.
@David #55
What you described is something many women have gone through: guy seems really interested the first few dates, sexoccurs and then the guy becomes distant, backs away. The woman is left wondering “What happened?” It’s confusing and it does hurt and feels like the guy was two different people. It becomes pretty obvious upon reflection that the guy really wasn’t interested in the woman as a potential girlfriend, just interested in having sex with her at that point in time.
Reverse the genders and it sounds as though this is what happened in your situation, with the added little barb of being called *aggressive*. And you’ve drawn the conclusion many women have: Don’t have sex until you’ve taken the time to get to know each other.
Though I’m sure it stings right now, I think you really dodged a bigger bullet down the road by finding out how this woman operates before gettingmore emotionally invested.
Kenley #56, Thanks for the post. I am moving on. I don’t need the baggage at the moment.
Ava #58, None of this makes any sense to me and I will never ever find out. I don’t want to anymore. It’s quite stressful.
Selena #57, I couldn’t agree more.
Selena #59, I hope that’s not the case. I take responsibility for instigating the sex. I also did not draw those conclusions. She told me so. Maybe I should have wored it different. It’s not important anymore. Water under the bridge.
Kenley, Ava, Selena,
Cannot believe this. I checked in with her with a simple “How are you?”email and to my surprise, I got an email back initiating communications with questions. I wrote her back. Been out of this dating game for a while since I was married so not sure what to expect to do. Any comments?
Re: #61
I really don’t know David, but often when people who “just aren’t into you” pop back up, it’s because they didn’t find anyone they really liked during the interim. Doesn’t mean they “came to their senses”, usually justmeans they are bored and/or horny.
I suppose giving her another chance would depend on how you feel about her shooting you down aftershe got your hopes up. Again.
David,
I sometimes subscribe to the “Tough Love” philosophy of helping people. Most of usthought that you should walk away from this lady, but you didn’t. You sent her an email. Why? What your actionssignal to me is that regardless of the advice given, you are going to try to win her over.Based on what you indicated happened with her, I think you are setting yourself up for heartache. But, I already told you that. The fact that she responded to your email is not a reason to get your hopes up. She’s probably just trying to be nice or polite — that’s why I answer the emaisl of men I have absolutely no intention of seeing again. If a woman doesn’t want to see you again after she has had sex with you, youare done.
I am no dating expert. I am only going by my personal experience and the things I have read. So, once again, my advice is to move onto someone else. Don’t waste time on her — and that means no emails, no calls, no texts, no nothin’.
David said: (#45)
“she told me she regrets what happen and how upset she is for allowing me and her to get into this situation”
David asked: (#61)
“Been out of this dating game for a while since I was married so not sure what to expect to do. Any comments?”
In one of my serious relationships, my girlfriend and I had sex 4 or 5 days after we started dating.Later on my girlfriend told me that she didn’t want to end up in bed that soon, but she wasn’t able to withstand the temptation. (I’ve sometimes felt similarly, but I’ve never verbalized it to a girlfriend.)
I see one critical difference in our situations. My girlfriend believed that it was her responsibility to withstand the temptation. She didn’t blame me for providing the temptation. When I was in her situation, I made conscious choices to have sex, even though it might have been a bad idea. In making those choices, I accepted that I might have to live with the consequences.
Your girlfriend is holding you responsible for her choice. That’s immature. As an adult I accept responsibility for my own actions. I also respect my partners’ ability to make their own choices.
Do you really want to be in a serious relationship with someone who can’t take responsibility for her own decisions?
#62 Selena,
and then take all of yours advise and run faster than Usain Bolt.
Trust me, I am not totally heart broken about it. Hey, if she is bored/ or horny, I could always use another lay
Nothing within my emails suggest or asking her out. Nada!
#63 Kenley,
You may be right that she is only being nice or polite in replying to an email. Thank you for all of your good advise. This whole dating thing is definitely not fun. I don’t like the drama and the games.
#63 Karl R,
You know, I was a little surprised that I was blamed forboth of our actions. You are just lucky to have a girlfriend who accepted her responsibility for her choices. I was not even given the opportunity to explain, let alone, talk about things with maturity, which I am a little disappointed. Thank you all for all the advise and comment. It’s been helpful.
Evan, this comment is 3 years late but since I just found it yesterday and was writing about this touchy subject for my forum, so I guess you'd like to know that I quoted you in my piece:
http://gettheloveyoudeserve.info/forum/topics/here-we-go-again-should-we-or
I agree with you about sex and I guess we are in the minority. Most relationship coaches speak against having sex too soon or before commitment. I see it as a natural -and in fact necessary- path toward commitment as my personal experience attests.
I'm rooting for Jay #44. So true…so true! We rarely see this from guys' POV that they have needs for connection too which mainly are facilitated through sex because we condescendingly generalize that "guys just want sex and they'll do anything to get in your pants."
It's true for the most part, but sex can mean a different thing too -yes even for a guy- in a different context.
David…
David..
I went out drinking one night and had sex with a guy the first night and I hardly 'ever' drink. I was so embarrassed, I couldn't face him, I didn't feel good enough for him. I'm wondering if this is her problem. I'm not saying she was under the influence of anything, but it could've hit her the next day too. And I really liked this guy, this was 21 years ago and to this day the best sex I ever had. And I couldn't bare to repeat it, but I loved talking to him on the phone, for months and months off and on after that. Until he finally gave up, I wish he hadn't.
Sometimes we blame ourselves for not having the person we want, but sometimes it's just them, their problem. In my case, it was my problem.
Oh my god, do things never change? After a particularly rough marriage and divorce,I hadn’t dated, or had sex for nearly 10 years – yes, 10 years! - just didn’t put myself out there. Recently met this guy through high school alumni association. We hit it off via e-mails, and then phone calls. Then lunch, more phone calls and then dinner and drinks. Chemistry was abundant and I thought, “wow!”, can’t believe after all these years I’ve finally met a man I’m interested in, enjoy talking with and physically attracted to. Sentiments appeared to be mutual, blah, blah, blah. We ended up having sex and made plans for the upcoming weekend. No red flags & no reason to believe he was anything other than what I was seeing and hearing. Haven’t heard from him since; have not called him and do not intend to. Honestly, I’m devastated and simply cannot believe this kind of b.s. is still going on between men and women. I’m older, don’t have time for this, deserve better, but now I’m feeling like that stupid girl in her 20′s with very bad judgment. Beating myself up I guess. I’ll be dead before I let anyone else in again.
Wow so this is really old I’m sure. I agree with Evan about no sex without commitment. Seriously though, what is true commitment is it just sayind that we won’t see anyone else clearly no sex with anyone else either. Ugh after 4 dates with a guy I think I like him enough to actually say I wouldn’t date anyone else just based on how he is treating me and what I know so far. On the flip side if I commit to him and I have sex the sex will put me in lala land where I don’t really pay attention to who he is. This as burned me in the past.
I’m definitely venting here.
Ughhhhh I really do not get it. Not just on this forum; I had a similar discussion IRL recently. What does that even mean “no sex without commitment”? What if you’ve committed and had sex and it was absolutely awful, and you want to back out? Or, on a more realistic note, what if after having sex, the man got comfortable enough around you that he started being more himself, as opposed to putting his best foot forward like he’d done on those first 4 dates, and you got to see the side of him that you didn’t know existed, and you aren’t comfortable with, and now you want to back out?
Plus, if we’re both mature adults, what is the big deal? We’re not joining our bank accounts, we’re not adopting each other’s children. We’re just going one little step above that “passionate kissing” everyone seems to think is perfectly acceptable after a casual date. What’s the huge significance all of a sudden? I try to understand and honestly do not. When I met my future husband, I’d gotten religion real bad that year, and then, yes it was a huge deal to me that I only be intimate with one person throughout my life. But if you take religion out of the equation, why is it such a huge step that I have to hold back and do not agree to sex with a man until he commits, like it’s some kind of a prize I give out, rather than an expression of our mutual physical attraction at the moment? Can somebody please explain. I’m puzzled.
Gee Goldie, haven’t you read the oxytocin threads? LOL
No sex without commitment is for those women who are going to get really pissed off if a man decides he’s not into her after having sex. And blame him for not taking into account that she would be attached to him because of the sex, even if they’ve only known each other a total of 20 hours, (5 dates, 4 hours each) or less.
It doesn’t apply to those of us who view sex as part of getting to know someone and understand that sex alone does not a relationship make.
Hey Guys and Gals,
The reality is that there is no one rule that fits all situations. Wish there was a better and foolproof way that both sexes could use to guide them…BUT there isn’t. So, both parties have to sense / feel their way and there are no guarantees…..EVER.
But remember this. If you DO have sex early in the game and it’s horrible, but everything else is great, that doesn’t have to mean that the relationship is over.Sexual compatibility can grow and develop over time (practice makes perfect). Conversely, if the sex is GREAT, that does NOT automatically mean that the relationship is made in heaven and will succeed.What if all or many of the other important factors are not OK, is great sex enough to hold it together? NO!!!!!!! But it’s possible that the non-sexual factors will improve if the offending partner sees that it’s a case of fix these things, or you’re out. If he or she cares enough, they will work at it and MAYBE save the relationship.
As someone earlier stated, there is more to solid relationships than just sex. So, finding the right balance between your sex life and life outside the bedroom is the objective. So, don’t give up too soon (unless all aspects of life together are unbearable). But also don’t conclude all is well too soon. It takes time to really get to know someone well enough to make a full commitment……time for both parties to show their true selves on all aspects of life. Nobody is perfect , but in the early throes of a relationship , love is blind…..meaning you aren’t clearly seeing all the things you should see. When the blinkers come off and your vision is more clear and laser-focused, you see things the way they really are.
One other point worth mentioning is this. Since perfection is not in the cards for any of us,don’t be overly critical. Whoever you choose, is going to have some faults, habits, characteristics, traits, that are not pleasing to you. The reverse is also true. The meaning of real true love is that you accept someone the way they are……with all warts and blemishes and they do the same for you. If you are unable to do that, then you can be sure that you have NOT found the right person who you can love unconditionally.
Hey, nobody promised you a rose garden in this game of love. But a lot of honest,open, conscientious communication in which everything is on the table, will help you get to the point where you feel ready and well qualified to make a decision about the long term nature of your relationship as well as when it’s OK to have sex. How long will this take? That’s up to you and your partner and how diligently you work at it and talk about things.
Love is great , when it’s right and real. But it can be hell if you take it too casually and suddenly find your self in a situation that you just want to get out of as soon as possible.
Best wishes for finding that relationship that works for you.
I love this topic, and it gets so confusing. I’m 22, and I have to admit I LOVE sex. I don’t know if I love it more than most women, but I think I admit to liking it more than other women. I really do love sex, and I love having sex at least once a day when I’m in a relationship. And no, I don’t use it as a weapon.
Before men start offering some sort of dating propositions…I’ll shut up. haha.
But yeah…my only want is that men are HONEST about what they want. If I go out with a guy and end up sleeping with him, fine. Whatever. It doesn’t mean I want to marry the dude. But the guy telling me what HE’S after would be cool. >.<’ I mean, I am always really open. And if a guy was like “I find you really attractive but I don’t want anything serious” FINE. I’m not going to have a melt down. I just want some frikkin honesty. >.<;;;
Is that really so much to ask? *looks pointedly at all men*
“But the guy telling me what HE’S after would be cool. >.<’ I mean, I am always really open. And if a guy was like “I find you really attractive but I don’t want anything serious” FINE. I’m not going to have a melt down. I just want some frikkin honesty.”
yeh but are you gonna sleep with him? men generally speaking want to improve their odds of having sex.
Realdeal is accurate, ESPECIALLY a man/boy around that age. He wants to have sex. And he knows that if he brings up anything relationship oriented, there’s a good chance everything is going to fall apart. Plus, men don’t like to deal with emotions, so he also doesn’t know if he’s going to get a negative emotional response by saying something like that. I would be really surprised if a man/boy would EVER bring this type of thing up proactively, it’s just not realistic.
MEN ARE NOT MINDREADERS!
If that’s how you feel, girlfrommers, then why not bring it up yourself, proactively? I guarantee that guy would be really happy to hear he can have sex with you with no other commitment from him. If you say that though, you better mean it
Ladies, I’ve learned that we need to decide what it is WE really want. Based on that, we should do whatever we are comfortable doing.
There is no “time-line” for having sex. That being said, if you are cool with knowing a guy wants only sex and nothing else from you (and the chemistry is strong), then I wish you both much pleasure on the first date or the tenth.
HOWEVER,
if you are not 100% sure that you can handle a “sex only” relationship, move-on quickly if the guy tries right away. I feel that quite often, we want to believe we will turn a player into a boyfriend, but it rarely happens. I had incredible chemistry on a first date with a guy just the other night. I had to stop and say candidly “if we have sex tonight, I know we will both feel amazing. I also know that tomorrow, you’ll still feel amazing and I’ll feel like crap”. I honored that we had different agendas, but I did tell him I was disappointed that he tried because I felt that if he wanted to see me again, he would have waited. I also explained that sex is only good for me when I’m “comfortable” with a guy, and that doesn’t happen on the first night. We departed and I decided not to see him again. I will admit, it felt really good in the moment and was hard to resist, but I know myself. I’m past short term flings.
About the woman waiting 10 dates before sleeping with a man. Then he dumped her after 7.
Great advice to wait 10 dates! She didn’t get attached. She didn’t get hurt. It would have hurt much worse if she’d slept with him on date 6 and he left the next date. If a man is crazy about a woman he wants for a relationship, he’ll wait. A man just out for sex will get frustrated and then good riddens to him.
The point, Kathy, is that it’s TERRIBLE advice. Because she could have waited 10 dates, let him sleep with her, and THEN he goes away. That’s why it’s not about a number of dates or a time frame – it’s about whether he can commit before having sex. Not sure how you missed that one in my post.
Well, let me see, I think that It is okay to sleep with a man when you want to, as long as he turns you on and you can’t resist, no matter if it’s the first date or the tenth. Personally I wouldn’t go out with a guy I did not want to sleep with. But it is important for you both to be honest about what you want, Personally I hate dishonest men who just use you, and have been lied to many times, of course I never ever want a second date with a man who lies regardlles if he is good in bed or not, as mostly I am very sexual and cant help myself.But I dont get why guys just cant be honest in return, life would be much easier that way.
O.K. I am so confused!!!! I took all your advice Evan and had some great dates with a guy over the course of about 6 weeks. He pursued me, I mirrored him, I was present in the moment, we had so much fun. Our kissing started out sweet and then became more passionate. We had a fun romp in the back of my car that started to get hot and heavy. He stopped it and said things like “I don’t want our first time to be here in this car, you are an “all-night-wake-up-in-the-morning-have-coffee-together” type girl. You are so elegant, you carry yourself so well, you are so sexy…. We laughed and joked about his “rules” but throttled it down and shared some more passionate kisses. I left the next day on an overnight trip and he said to call him when I returned. I did and guess what… he disappeared! He has never returned my call and that was 3 weeks ago. PLEASE someone tell me what would make a man act like that????
Cindy: he was using you. Be glad you figured it out in 6 weeks instead of learning over 6 months.
Your sole responsibility before having sex is to figure out if he’s interested in YOU or in SEX……. of course the man is going to say “He’s into you” – if he thinks he’s got a chance to have sex.
Understanding that men do what they want to do when they want to do it, but when it comes to sex, they’ll take it.
So my question is….. how do you know he’s in it for SEX or in it for YOU?
So timely that I’m reading this…I had an amazing first date at the weekend and the chemistry was there instantly. We got on like a house of fire, lots of laughing, non stop chat…good times! After a great night, I went back to his house for a cup of tea, but didn’t sleep with him. I wanted to (he’s a sexy guy), but also told him that if we liked each other, we’ll see each other again. And I’ll know for sure that he likes me (ME and not my boobs!) if he continues to follow up – ha ha. In the meantime, I’ve lost nothing. Glad that I held back. I don’t have dating rules, but I finally feel like I’m getting smarter about dating and doing what feels right for me. Thanks Evan!
Reading everyone’s posts here has been so enlightening. I guess it’s because everything I have done so far with regard to my relationship is unusual and not very smart–from the outside.
I have been friends with L for over five years. We met at a work situation then continued contact over two years during which we became very close, talking almost everyday. He lived in another state so we would just see one another whenever he was in town.
All throughout this it was platonic but with flirtation and sometimes he would touch me on my knee, put his arm around me, etc. The reason i never responded is because he has five children and was still not legally separated from his wife. I guess I had hangups about this which is why I denied that I was falling in love with him.
A couple of times we were in the same hotel room or same apartment, and still, he only made verbal hints about sex but never made a move.Not even a kiss…
Just when we were getting really close, I was plotting a seduction scene to just make everything easier for us both…he met someone else. He told me all about her and I faked that I was happy for him.
Several months later I confessed to him how hurt I was…actually I was a total wreck and could barely think straight at work! I told him I had feelings for him…this was in person. He said nothing!
We saw each other again 2x over the next two years and finally last year he confessed that he wants me, thinks of me all the time, misses me.
SO finally I invited him over, nearly seven months later. We deliberately avoided talking about our situation (the woman he met is still in the picture but their relationship is at a standstill because he’s not yet separated legally–she also lives in another town so it is also long distance for him). We had a wonderful time together for two days, first at my place, then his hotel. He was the sweetest thing, in and out of bed, and I wonder if it was the smartest thing to not say anything about our situation.
I haven’t heard from him and it’s been five weeks now. I texted him a few times and he replied, just chitchat about nothing and anything. Whatever he has to day to me, I don’t know if I’ll ever hear it.
We are practically soulmates and have known each other for nearly six years. So when is the right time to have sex? When you know it’s a committed relationship, how come that is always easier to say and the hardest thing to do?
“The answer will always be HE WANTS SEX!”
Pretty much sums it up. LOL
I waited until marriage to have sex. Biggest mistake of my life. I am not resentful about my divorce. I’m resentful about the church lying to me. How would they know what my life would be like, better waiting or not? It’s a crock.
Now I’m going to be back on the dating scene, with an STD (that’s right, Christians, from my ONE partner, because I had NO experience and had NO idea what a decent guy was–screw that crap!)
Knowing what I know now, I’ve decided I’ll sleep with a man when he’s ready to go take an STD screen with me and see what he’s really sharing with me… that’s pretty much it. If he’s clean he’d be crazy to sleep with me. If he’s not taking the test forget it–the last thing I need is another STD. If we’re compatible, I’ll do it when I want to.
And even though many of you may not have STDs or think you don’t, I’d advise you to do the same. Condoms do not protect against herpes (only partially) and worse, 90% of people with herpes don’t know it. Get screwed but don’t get SCREWED if you know what I mean. LFMF…
Oh, and for those wondering about herpes and condoms:
“Despite the use of condoms and the avoidance of sex, the chance of transmitting genital herpes to an uninfected partner has been estimated at 10% per year. The risk of a man transmitting to his female partner is far greater than the reverse. In fact, the females’ chances of acquiring genital herpes are estimated at 30% each year.”
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/03/980311072130.htm
Voila.
Oh, and let’s not forget HPV, which can also be transmitted even when using a condom.
If they won’t test, don’t sleep with them.
Please, please girls, learn from my fail. If the idea of having an STD isn’t enough, imagine passing it to your newborn child because you don’t know you have it. It happens.
I agree with Paul; my last boyfriend would have agreed with him too. After he told me he loved me, he also stated (surprisingly) that he wished that we had waited longer to have sex! By the time we had started sleeping together, we’d probably been dating about 2 months. But he said that there is something so pure about that “first love” and the moment that one loses their virginity & it would be so wonderful to recapture that moment. He was 42! The guy I’m dating now is 34 and is always saying how great it is to feel like a teenager again when he’s around me, & even though I drive him crazy (sexually), he loves being teased & just thinking about sex! My opinion: a good man just wants a good girl to like him & he’ll stay in pursuit if he likes you because men love the thrill of the chase.
I once had a girlfriend tell me that 3 months was a good “time limit”; but I think it should just be whenever you feel like you and he are friends who happen to be heavily attracted to one another. As it happens, 3 months is usually about the amount of time it takes to feel like you’re friends with someone, no?
I completely agree with KAT. I would never keep dating a guy in the first place if I don’t want to sleep with him. if he’s the right guy, then it doesn’t matter when you sleep with him.
What shocks me is how many people actually expect something to happen after sex? How can a woman love a man on a first date? what is a loose female? A woman with no self control.It’s BS for women to say that it’s okay to have sex because it feels so good & because they need it,because it is true it is also stupid & to say it’s normal is to say it’s ok to act like wild beasts & go with it! Men are unlearned & ignorant enough,how will they learn to buy the cow if the cows always graze in their fields instead of keeping the mystery alive? loose is loose because women that place high value on themselves won’t give in to sex just because it feels good,they wait because it’s the right thing to do in case the man is a child molester,rapist or some other bad type of person.time is a good thing & you certainly won’t die if you wait,but an std can certainly make u very sick if u don’t! ladies of value won’t throw her valuables at swine nor will real men! wait or just call yourselves greedy sex hungry pigs and admit you have no self control at all & that you are not responsible adults
post #93 I read through all post only to finally agree with the very last post! Thank you JessicaRabbit, you hit the nail on the head! Please women please, the sexiest most beautiful trait a women can possess are the intangibles! things we can’t see or touch. If a woman values herself, then that opens the door to man’s heart to value her too. Better to be in his head than his bed! They don’t call it Victoria’s disclosure —– No it’s Victoria’s Secret. Enjoy being friends with men, enjoy men, men are great out of bed too : ) Guard your hearts because your saving it for someone who really loves you and you really love him. Being involved, dating, talking whatever is about getting to know someone — and it takes a long time — not about sex. Do that for yourself! If the guy disappears because you didn’t have sex with him —–send him on his way, bye bye. Better than him disappearing after sex, right? If he is after one thing, then why in the world do we want to reward him for that? God bless the physical male mind, we need men to be physical! And God bless a woman who can practice discretion, and wait for love from him. What happen to holding hands and kissing? Time will tell if he’s worth the wait. How do we expect a man to ever feel like a man if we act like men ourselves? Love is worth waiting for and a man who finds a woman who values and honors herself has struck Gold!
Evan I completely agree with you. No committed relationship, no sex. Especially since I’m looking for a future husband, not a favor of the month. To many risks from sleeping with people you barely know.
I was just talking to a friend about this earlier today. He told me that I should just go out and have a fling. When I said I want boyfriends not flings, he then told me I should open my mind to it and that my frame of thought will hold me back. Even told me that holding off on sex until I’ve been in a committed relationship with a man will run him off. Well good riddance, I would hope it would. That wouldn’t be the kind of man I’d want to marry one day anyways.
Who I have sex with and their status in my life is a big deal to me, and throw in the possibility that I could end up getting pregnant by this man really makes me keep it only for the long term committed ones. It just doesn’t sit well with me to open myself up like that to a guy I’m still only dating, or one I’ve only been with for a few months. I haven’t been with him long enough to know him well enough for me to risk my future like that. Only when we have been together for long term and I can trust him will I feel comfortable enough to sleep with him.
I also feel sex early on in the relationship blinds you to the other person’s faults and characteristics you otherwise wouldn’t want in a spouse. That since you’ve already made the physical connection of sex, you’ll let not okay things slide and make excuses for their bad behaviors/actions because you’ve already opened yourself up like that. I know how I am, and feel I would fall right into that. So I’d rather keep my mind clear and focused during the vital early months of a relationship. I’d rather spend my time creating a strong foundation for the relationship to stand on, evaluating if we’re on the same page, and making emotional and mental bonds rather than worrying about the sex or the fog in my mind it may cause. When you get older, and sex becomes less and less wanted, those bonds are what will be keeping you together and making you want to actually work at keeping those bonds there.
I agree with Ricci. What I find discouraging is when other women pressure you to have sex, but your man respects your boundary. Has anyone experienced this? My friend thought I was taking things to the extreme when I didn’t have sex after a month and a half of dating. Huh? A month and a half is just when you’re getting to know someone. For those of that want marriage and a long-lasting relationship, you’re better off waiting IMO. I don’t want to risk having sex with someone after a month and find out that they had no intention of committing in the long run. Not to mention the oxytocin being released and blinding your judgment. It’s better to know a guy’s character first. Watch out for those little signs that he may not be right for you.
I was lucky to find a man that respected my boundary of waiting 3 months to have sex. If he respects your boundary, he respects you and is into YOU.
wait im really confused!!! Even said that a man can sleep with you first and then fall in love with you later.. ” a man can look for sex and find love” but he also said that that you should wait untill you know weather “he wasnts sex or if he wants you”. it apears to me that many men can find love with you after they have been looking for just sex which i know to be true from personal experiance. concidering i think its hard to base your actions on weather or not a man is commited to you when in actual fact many men dont know weather or not they are commited to you and might speand ages figuring it out. for this reason i feel as if the two points i have mentiod from Evens article seem to contridict…. just like men i like haveing sex and am intrested not in love exclusivly but sex as well… im not waiting 100 years before im 100% sure he can be comited becuse frankly i have needs. i love men i love sex and im sick of haveing to live a life of perpetual hornyness in order to get both of them togeather… gah life is so hard!
What people think when a woman should wait to have sex with a man it will depend on your backgrounds, your belief, your value, your faith and your thinking. If you are alone but never feels lonely, you have a power to have a courage to get through these problems with great humor. Love is an action of giving the best tools to someone or others to complete them as a human being and upgrade their life, meanwhile sex is an action to express and to create love to the other person and yourself to become one positive energy, and not by lust. Sex is a basic human instinct whether men or women, and it has been tested that doing love outside the marriage can reduce the quality of a marriage or maybe your partner in the future can end up having sexual affairs with others behind the marriage. Again having sexual activity in a relationship is not a guarantee that the man is committed to you, they will know when the time is up, if they really love you they will marry you. Men sometimes invite us to their house, but sometimes is a little bit of a danger situation for the women, and it can give a wrong idea to the men, they can have some other expectation, and they just wait until how many times they will get the chance to get laid. These days the definition of romantic “love” is killing and tricky by “wanting”. Love should be an exchange of “giving”. If in daily life you love by giving others by not manipulating your belief and your body, mind and soul, you will find your soul mate. When you find his/her then you will be very lucky. The main purpose of this life is not by marriage or making a family, is by upgrading your life and other persons as a complete human being, the best of the very the best, and just be grateful and not living in a miserable life. Sex is lust, but doing make love in a marriage with good purpose is just wonderful.
“Your sole responsibility before having sex is to figure out if he’s interested in YOU or in SEX.” But all guys are interested in sex, they NEED sex. And that’s okay since that’s the way they are made. So of course they’re gonna be interested in sex – I think that it should be ’figure out if he’s interested in YOU AND SEX…
Women waste way too much time trying to get into a man’s ‘head’. Men don’t spend half as much time worrying about this stuff. If they want sex, they go after it and usually let you, the woman, accept the ‘consequences’ of sex too early, too late… blah blah.
Don’t let guys unload their share of the relationship responsibility onto you. My favorite line I tell guys is ‘I seem to recall that d*ck being attached to your body, not mine’.
A quality guy has his own reasons not to press for early sex with random women. If he is pressing for sex early, it is because he doesn’t care about you. Make your decisions accordingly. He is also showing he doesn’t know how to manage his own feelings and needs and wants to dump all of the responsibility of relationship timing onto you. Another red flag for women who want a relationship. Dump him and move on. Or just use him for sex. Whatever you do… don’t have sex with men like that and expect anything more out of it… or, for God’s sake… ’obsess’ about what the sex did or didn’t mean. What a huge waste of time.
I think its really funny how you criticized that woman who was going to wait for 10 dates to sleep with the guy because he dumped her after 7 dates and even blaming her for him dumping her after 7 dates all because she wouldn’t have sex with him? I my opinion she did just what you are telling all women to do; wait until you know if he is after you or sex. She did exactly that, and guess what, he was after sex. Time is the telltale sign if a guy really likes you. I believe if a guy really likes me and he really wants to be with me then he will wait till I’m ready. And if lord douche bag isn’t willing to put in the effort and stick it out then he clearly wasn’t all that into me and I didn’t just up my number for some loser who was just using me anyway. Good for her she held out because if she ever runs into him after that breakup it will be much easier to hold her head high knowing she didn’t give the creep the satisfaction of getting the only thing he really wanted from her.
@ Erin, my understanding is that, rather than waiting to get to know the man better, to see where their relationship goes, etc. this woman just went with an arbitrary number of dates she thought they had to wait for. Why 10? why not 9 or 11? If they both feel they’re ready after six dates, why do they have to wait another four? if they feel they’re not ready after ten, are they supposed to go ahead and have sex anyway, because the rules say ten dates? If time is the telltale sign that a guy really likes you, why not wait a year or two? if he’s still around after a year, he must really like me then. Maybe the man who broke up after seven dates, did so because he felt she was paying more attention to the arbitrary rules she’d read somewhere, than to the actual person she was with, and her actual feelings. We’ll never know of course, as he wouldn’t tell us. One thing for sure, a “lord douche bag” who’s only in in for sex, wouldn’t have waited seven dates to bail. He would’ve left after three or four.
Many women do not care about intimacy with men, period – and
this includes hugs and kisses as well.
I don’t want to end up with a female partner – being married to her or not or not - who will always make up excuses – even start fights about nothing – just because she wants to avoid intimacy.
If I date a woman who doesn’t even allow me to give her
a superficial good-bye hug after a date, we will not have many
more dates – and after 7 dates or so, I will be history and not
write or call anymore.
If she is sweet and nice and warmhearted, of course I will stick around somewhat longer, to see if her attitude changes. For me, to make a commitment, she has to be intelligent, loving and showing a genuine interest in intimacy with me. If she doesn’t, I will assume that she would not want to be close, even after marriage.
One of the best dates I ever had – we stayed together for 1 1/2 years and almost got married – had great sex with me all night after our first date. I was very happy! I was absolutely crazy about her and wanted to see her as often as possible.
The fact that we broke up after 1 1/2 years did not have anything to do with intimacy, but with lifestyle differences that could not be solved, unfortunately. The breakup happened decades ago, and I still miss her.
I disagree with Evan that men are sexual hypocrites. And I fully DO NOT accept the premise that sex is the same for men and women. It’s not a double standard, folks – it’s two entirely seperate entities with their own standards. It’s like LeBron James and I both play basketball – him in the NBA, me a couple times a month at the gym. Would anybody in their right mind hold us to the same standards of performance??
To Evan’s point that men push women for sex, then lose respect for them for having sex – yes, they lose respect for them as a potential LTR, but certain people fill certain roles.
I have a big, burly biker dude friend and a scrawny, financial whiz one as well. If I’m in a bar fight, I want friend #1, if I want my taxes done, friend #2! I mean you don’t expect you mechanic to to the plumbing in your house do you??
Ron,
That’s a terrible argument. It’s the very definition of a double standard. The only difference is that you’re justifying it based on your own feelings. Men can sleep around without judgment. Women can’t. I don’t give a crap whether you choose to marry a woman who has slept around or not, but don’t deny that it’s a double standard.
Oh, and I can tell you one thing, as a guy who’s slept around plenty: when you’re looking for a lifetime partner, you WANT the woman with experience, not the virgin.
EmkEmk
So,…what do the virgins do? Give up on finding a husband ? I hope that’s not your advice as a dating coach
Although to add to my comment- i would never marry a guy who’s been with a lot of women, so I guess it goes both ways…
Evan – sorry but it’s NOT, brother. My feelings have nothing to do with it. Nobody in there right mind would expect me and Lebron James to play basketball at the same level based on some major differences.
He’s an elite athlete – I’m not
He’s like 7 ft, I’m like 6 ft
He can jump out of the building, I can barely touch the rim
He has higher caliber players around him – I have out of shape dudes
He has supreme talent – I wouldn’t start on the local high school JV team
The fact of the matter is there are VAST difference regarding sex for men and women, that make any kind of absolute comparison foolish
Just a few:
Sex is easy for women to get – not for men without effort, $, etc
Sex is more dangerous for women – men don’t get pregnant, nor are as susceptile to contract STD’s as such as easily
Sex has known social consequences for women – like it or not, it exists. You can just bury your head and claim it’s not a reality b/c you don’t like it.
Women are much more often more emotional effected by sex than men (ex. feel “used”, get attached, etc). When was the last time you heard a man lamented he was used for sex?? Come on now!
Ron,
Your feelings have everything to do with it. And frankly, you should probably leave the metaphors and analogies to me. There’s absolutely no correlation between you competing against LeBron James in a game of basketball and men and women’s sexual proclivities. I honestly can’t even see the thread. So the fact that he’d destroy you in hoops has little bearing on whether you’re demonizing women for the same behavior that men get lauded. That’s the real apples and oranges argument, my friend.
And just because women can get pregnant, can get STDs and are generally more emotional about sex does not mean in any way that they shouldn’t have the right to sleep with whomever they want just as men do.
Acknowledging differences between men and women – or between you and LeBron – doesn’t change that one iota.
There are differences between Jews and Asians. Blacks and Whites. Gays and Straights. And yet only the most narrowminded person would suggest that all of these people should have equal rights.
So what is it, Ron? Are you so narrowminded to suggest that women should not have the right to do the same as men? Or are you simply saying – what I suspect you’re saying – which is that YOUR judgment of a woman who has been with multiple partners is justified in preventing YOU from feeling connected to her. Because YOU can’t impose your standards on people like ME.
Your letter is valuable, Ron, inasmuch as it illustrates to women my original point: men are sexual hypocrites. Thanks for playing.
Evan @ 109 writes “Are you so narrow minded to suggest that women should not have the right to do the same as men? “
A question asked no doubt rhetorically, with a seemingly obvious answer. But it raised an interesting quandry for me. To wit:
I strive mightily to be a rational person making decisions based upon defensible positions. Of course, there are some choices that don’t require a moral defense (e.g. I prefer chocolate to vanilla; or I prefer tall women to short women [yes, I understand it reduces my pool of decent women who might otherwise make great partners, but it ain't immoral or hypocritical, even if I were short ] ).
But having gone thru a fair amount of life now (50s) as a parent, husband and dater I have come to the conclusion that hypocrisy has its place in society. Or stated differently, some things might be OK to do, but you don’t need to share it with everyone.
Case in point, my current GF smokes a lot of dope. I smoke it from time to time. I have 2 kids who are teenagers. They smoke dope from time to time. Now the hypocrisy. Neither myself nor my GF do it around my kids & vice versa. Why? I don’t think the modeling is helpful for the parent/child relationship. Although my kids know that my deeply held (and applied) philosophy as a libertarian and parent is that you should be able to do whatever you want, so long as you cant keep you sh-t together, and don’t negatively impact others.
How is this relevant here? > Insight into what goes on in some guys head. I believe that there should be no different standard as to what is OK/good/healthy between men & women with regards to sexual activity. BUT, I have got to tell you that non intellectually it completely turns me off to hear that a woman has had a lot of sexual partners. It strikes me as skanky. I don’t defend it intellectually, but I apply the rule in dating.
So I guess I am saying that, if I am representative of a significant portion of men, my advice is– Women, screw whoever you want, as often as you want, but don’t share it me if it looks bad. That is if you want an improved chance of getting into a LTR w me, bc I will never forget that fact. (note: I do need to be certain you are disease free)
Evan,
I realize this your blog, but the personal attacks aren’t really called for. And you seem to be getting a little worked up quite frankly. Ironic since you think I’m the one blinded by my feelings. And lets be honest here – you have a finanical interest in telling women what they want to hear, so to claim your being objective and I’m not is kinda laughable.
Also you are making a strawman comparison. First off, I did NOT say anything about PLAYING Lebron James. I said we would not be judge on the same standard on the basketball court b/c there are vast difference/limits to what we bring to the table as players.
Also, I NEVER said anything about women don’t have the right to do ANYTHING. What I DID say was that they will be judge differently b/c they perform those acts under different circumstances. It’s like if the kid who works at 7-11 gets busted for being with a hooker vs. President Obama doing the same. Do you REALLY think people will see it as equal occurances of solliciting a prostitute? There will be FAR more backlash if the President did it due to his position/stature (disgrace the office, embarass the country, national security risk) vs. the kid (might be in the paper). Do you think they will be punished equally either?
I’m not sure why you didn’t stick to what I actually said instead of bringing in fallacious arguments about impeding on civil rights or some such nonsense.
To be quite honest, Evan I’m a little suprised by your reaction to this. I think you’ve generally given good advice and have been pretty objective up until this. It’s like you say “You don’t endorse it, you report it”. that’s why I’m a little suprised you are being so closeminded to fair points and instead are towing the PC line.
@Hadley – I don’t think I’m going to single handedly eradicate hypocrisy. I will, however, point it out every time I see it. So let’s not pretend that “He’s a stud/she’s a slut” is anything other than a double standard, okay? Next point: smoking pot and telling your kid not to smoke pot is perfectly defensible. Sleeping with a woman and judging her for sleeping with you is not. Isn’t the irony really thick that you can do something but if a woman does the same thing, it’s somehow “bad”? Finally, to your point that a woman with many sexual partners is a “skank”. Not so. If a woman is 38 and never married, and has been sexually active since she’s 18, it would be hard NOT to have a lot of sexual partners. Unless you’re saying that a woman shouldn’t sleep with anyone outside of marriage. Which, if you’re a guy who likes to get laid, I’m presuming you’re not saying. So a woman finds an exclusive relationship every six months for 20 years and she’s slept with 40 guys. Big numbers. Not a skank.
Moving on to Ron – Your comparisons are so outlandish and outside the realm of reality that I’m not sure what to do with them. I’m talking about whether it’s fair and reasonable for you to sleep with whomever you want, yet judge a woman who’s been similarly sexually active and you’re asking me to process the penal system for presidents soliciting hookers? Sorry, man, you’ve gone too far afield.
I’ve already made my point – men and women are different, but people are people, and should be judged by an equal standard. The fact that you’re very comfortable judging women more harshly than men for the same behavior (and then justifying it by saying that women to men = punk kid to the President), speaks for itself. I need not refute you, as your argument does all the talking.
Finally, allow me to obliterate your main point:
I am toeing the PC line? I am telling women what they want to hear? Really? Have you READ this blog? Where most of the time, I’m providing a masculine counterbalance to all the myths that women have about men? Where I’m consistently defending myself (as a coach for women) against being anti-woman? Seriously, dude, that’s about the most ineffectual attack you can make on me.
The only line I toe is the REALITY/FAIRNESS line.
When a woman expects that a man make more than she does, even if she makes $250K, I’ll tell her it’s not realistic or necessary.
When a woman expects that a man should KNOW that he wants to marry her in six months, I’ll tell her it’s not realistic or fair.
When a woman expects that she’s going to land George Clooney, just because she looks good for her age, I’ll tell her it’s not realistic or fair.
So don’t give me this crap about telling people what they want to hear. I tell people what they NEED to hear.
So dig it my friend: YOU need to hear that you’re a hypocrite. You need to hear that you’re the man that women are complaining about. You need to hear that if you think the primary function of a woman is sex (as you’ve previously intimated), you’re the kind of man who is patently incapable of making a woman feel heard, understood and safe.
Oh, and being closeminded to closeminded people is not closeminded. It’s common sense.
Evan, THANK YOU. Your responses here are spot-on. Fairness to all adults, male and female, is the way to go.
Please come down off your horse Evan – I gave you credit for doing a good job for the most part. I just feel you come up short on this one, that’s all. And I apologize I did not accept you are the arbitrator of what is universal reality and fairness
And for somebody who doesn’t need to refute me, that’s quite a wall of impassioned words!
I can dig you don’t like my analogies, but you can’t claim you don’t understand them, and then in the next breath you are factually “obliterating” them. Come on guy, let’s put the self-gratifying hyperbole aside and stick to the topic.
By the way – you REALLY should take a closer look at the definition of hypocrite. A hypocrite would say “I believe men and women should be judged equally” and then NOT judge them that way. What I am saying is “I do not believe men and women should be judged the same way regarding sex”, and in fact live by my beliefs, so in essence, you should admire me.
In closing, to take a page from your book: Check-mate
You’re absolutely right, Ron. You nailed the definition of hypocrisy and proven that you’re not, in fact, a hypocrite, because you don’t think men and women are equal.
I don’t think I need to say anything else about how I disagree with your stance.
I wish you the best of luck in your relationships and hope you find the woman that fully appreciates your worldview.
As a woman, I can honestly say that I am so confused about this “when is the right time to have sex” issue. Men will do anything to sleep with me and I can hold them off as long as I want. However, waiting or not waiting doesn’t seem to have not served me very well…
The online dating thing makes things a little more difficult because when a man flies from overseas to come and meet me he doesn’t want wait.
@ Evan – First, thank you for the sincere well wishes. For the sake of clarification, I actually said “I do not believe men and women should be judged the same way regarding sex.” but no need to split hairs….
I can respect the fact that we agree to disagree. I wish you best of luck with the blog and your business and hope my contributions are helpful in some way.
Dear Evan,
In response to your blog today, I would like to jump in as I was the oneh who posted a FB comment which I merely suggested waiting a period of time before having sex, hence the 10 dates.
Let me first start off by saying I agree with you about determining if he is interested in you or just sex. Let me further add that a fixed number dates before having sex may sound preposterous. In addition, women can have sex with a man whenever they want… freedom of choice
The whole point of my post was based on a notion that men will dump you if you hadn’t had sex with them in 3 dates. I merely suggested taking time to get to know one another and like you point out… is he interested in you or just sex. I added that men who are merely out for just sex rarely ask a woman out after 4, 5 or 6 dates if the deed had not been done.
I remember last year you and I having a discussion about intense chemistry on a first meet and to beware of jumping into bed too quickly. For some, they believe this intense chemistry to be love. Now, I’m sure you would agree that intense chemistry is not love but rather brain chemicals running amok.
Back to my comment, whether it’s the 1st, 3rd, 6th, 10th or until marriage having sex is a personal choice and there are plenty of successful relationships with those who have had sex on the very first date.
Like you say, sex is not a reward, but something you share.
i will fuck whoever i want whenever i want. men are just tools for me.
RE: Evan #112 “So a woman finds an exclusive relationship every six months for 20 years and she’s slept with 40 guys. Big numbers. Not a skank. “
————————-
I must respectfully disagree w you. 40 is 40. Don’t matter why. And I find 40 partners scary high. I will leave the names off if that helps the dialogue. And as I said before I am not making a defense of my POV or perspective based upon fairness(or any other rational basis). Its a visceral reaction.
Your site is not primarily a gender equity discussion site. Its is a dating site where (primarily) women come to get actionable information. I am here posting this to help w that. I post this not to prove a point like men can do whatever they want and women can’t; or to make women feel bad about the double standard (and it is).
So here is my actionable info. I stick to my guns that most men would admit (if they didn’t fear a PC backlash) that they find a woman who had 40 sex partners of reduced appeal (fair or not). Thus my advise. >>Keep it to yourself.
Having said that, if its important to the woman to “share” this. Fine, but don’t be surprised it the strategy isn’t working.
I think Hadley Paige hits on many good points (minus his one misstep about the alledged “double standard”). Something to keep in mind – while Evan makes a good point in that the way that woman went about her numbers wasn’t overly ridiculous (ex. if she had sleep with 5 guys in one week) it’s still an accumulated “damage” for lack of a better word. I think that example is not very likely, but even if it were, being constantly sexually active is not a default behavior for many people. So even if she wasn’t running from ONS to ONS, she’s still regularly engaging in sex on a pretty casual level. “40 committed realtionship” kind of sounds to me like people who talk about all the different “friends” they have – kind of make me think they don’t know the difference between a true friend and an acquaintance
@David, before you even told us that your girlfriend had been in an abusive relationship, I KNEW what was going on with her. I saw myself in your words.
No one can be involved in an abusive relationship and come out unscathed. Your girlfriend has been deeply hurt and and, psychologically and relationally, she is getting her legs back under her. Good for her!!
One of the life lessons she must re-learn is how to feel and assert her own boundaries … what feels right and is right for her. Unfortunately, her abuser probably taught her to believe that her boundaries were all wrong. She learned from him to question and condemn herself.
So, instead of feeling and asserting her boundaries, as we do when we feel too close to someone too soon, she put her own self asunder and gave in to your wishes. She learned the abuser’s lessons well.
Later, she felt that boundary invasion and regretted giving in to you.
That’s not your fault. She is learning!
Here’s my advice: be for her what she asks you to be. If she says let’s spend time together platonically, then do it! Show her how a real man behaves.
You know why? Because she is a survivor, and you just might be a witness to something great.
So a woman finds an exclusive relationship every six months for 20 years and she’s slept with 40 guys. Big numbers. Not a skank. “
You went far afield with your analogy of 20 exclusive relationships and 40 sexual partners. 20 exclusive relationships and 40 sex mates sounds extremely scary to me.
I don’t see any self respecting man who would want to be in a relationship leading to marriage with a woman with such sordid past. It’s already obvious that this woman has established a pattern of broken relationships – so why bother to think she’s gonna end it with you? Such women are likely searching for what they wont find. Maybe she’s looking for the biggest penis she could get. I don’t care if she’s only been in exclusive relationships or FWB and ONS to rack up her large numbers. But “40″? Boy that makes her a big time slut in my book.
A woman with high numbers certainly won’t be a good fit for me for many reasons.
The question I would pose to the men who are so alarmed at the idea that a woman might have had 40 partners is this:
Do you think it would be okay, and acceptable, if YOU had had 40 partners?
40 sex mates is scary for men AND women- if I hear that, first thing I would think is ‘walking STD’
Lizzy: “i will fuck whoever i want whenever i want. men are just tools for me.”
Duly noted.
I don’t know who you prudish men are, with your 50′s style fear of women embracing their own sexuality – or, apparently, even having monogamous sex with multiple men over many years.
But there’s a lot of you out there, clearly. Stephen. Hadley. Ron. Thank you for outing yourselves and reminding women of the double standard that hangs over their heads.
Your presence teaches an important lesson.
By the way, I’m guessing none of you guys has had anywhere near 40 partners, right?
Just know, women readers, that these men – while an unfortunately representative sample of American men – do not speak for all guys. Definitely not me.
EMK
Sex is never the same for men and women. Denying it would be the most stupidest thing anyone would ever do – no matter how logical you think you are. It has nothing to do with being prudish, but everything to do with the disparity between the male and female sexuality. Ever heard of a slutty man being regarded as cum dump. Anyone?
You can claim to be evolved all you want but you can’t change the way I and other men feel about it. I don’t want the woman that virtually every man has used up, and I chose to remain neanderthal rather than resentfully compelling myself to change the way i feel about it. A woman who thinks she uses men as sex tools just like the one above, probably needs to visit a shrink because she’s only deluding herself.
Women have the right to fully embrace their sexuality. Men also have the right to avoid getting married to slutty women.
There is no double standard – I proved that already.
And regarding my past, I’m going to take a page out of the ladies (and your) playbook:
“My past is no body’s business but my own – and that includes anyone who would never knowningly accept it, but who I can deceptively keep in the dark about it with my silence”
Evan, it’s a shame you fall into shaming and name calling when your points don’t stand on their own two feet, but to each their own. I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to express my views – I wish you luck with the business and I wish the ladies luck here in finding the men they want, and who equally want them. Take care!
You know guys, during the entire time I was online dating (about a year total) I only met one real predator — a man who brainwashed me, played me, and stopped all contact as soon as he got what he’d come for. He was a respectable professional, had been in a committed relationship for over 20 years, homeowner for 20 years, worked in the same field I do, except in a manager position. Never asked his number, but I figure it was relatively low, because he hasn’t been on his own long enough to bring it too far up. Because I looked at all that external stuff, and not at how he actually treated me, I kept showing up to dates and let him mess with my brain and use me any way he wanted. Lesson learned. But you guys go ahead, keep looking at numbers if that’s what works for you. Like Ray said on the other thread, it’s not like you have real female predators to worry about, right?
I’m with Goldie, except that I’ve dealt with several real predators now. These men show integrity in their work lives, but not their personal. They have yet to see their hypocrisy.
Re numbers it’s just going to vary according to circumstances and opportunity imo. And of course morals. And fear (stds).
THE most important mantra of Evan’s I offer men upfront and early on is: “don’t be an emotional or sexual hypocrite with me, ok?!” lol The emotional hypocrites, the players are actually worse. They can text, tell you the most outrageous, mushy things, play you, but God help you if you fall for them and even reciprocate a little. Then, by God, you are trying to land them, to get them to sign on the bottom line. Ring time. In my parting email to my ex of 7 months I said “you may be able to benchpress 300 lbs but you need to put on your big boy pants emotionally where women are concerned.” Jeez, I have YET to find a man as emotionally brave as me. But my last breakup almost did me in. I had little trust in men as it was, was 1/4 inch from bitterness finally. I’ve always prided myself on being emotinally balanced, but God at this rate I may become walking wounded myself soon. Maybe I already am.
These guys- Ron, Hadley need to read several books on how things were in the “Madmen” era, how bleak life was for many women. I came of age about 1971 so was in the thick of it but never experienced the incredible discrimination, sexism of my older friends, now in their mid-late 60s. The stories they told me would make your hair stand on end.
Listen, women have strong sex drives also. What are we supposed to do Ron, Hadley et al., sit on our hands? Take hormone suppressing drugs? Would that suit you fellas? All so we will be pure enough for you? Worthy? Bottom line is, you feel superior to women in your silly heads. NEED to feel superior to somebody, so pick what you perceive to be the “weaker” sex. Have probably put women in general up on some outdated pedestal also. You are not logical, but live in a fantasy world….
Can’t feel superior at work with the alpha boss or your parents or in your community, so have this fantasy life in which you judge, judge, judge so as to feel superior to SOMEBODY. Pathetic.
Btw, Patti Stanger (“Millionaire Matchmaker” tv show) calls these sorts of guys “criticizers” and says they are impossible to match, always find fault with the woman, not matter how great she is. They erect walls (in this case the “numbers” test) so as not to get intimate at all.
I don’t want to speak for Ray or St. Stephen or anyone else- because sometimes what people write and what they mean are two different things. And the last thing I would want to do is set women back a century. As some of you may have noticed from my posts, I’m generally a liberal woman, but sexually, um, conservative. This is not religion or ‘sex is wrong’ based- but has to do with my own beliefs regarding bonding between a man and woman, and hormonal (emphasis on that word) birth control.
The thing is, some of us do view a sexual relationship as sacred. I know that’s a word most people laugh at nowadays, particularly atheists. And something that you would treat as sacred gets sullied when it’s treated as something purely physical (meaning, no emotional bond) that you do with hundreds of people. Or 40. A little like dragging a necklace passed down from generations through a wringer. Maybe not the best analogy, but I’m typing fast.
But nowadays, the words ‘emotional bond’ means little, ESPECIALLY to men who’ve been with lots of women.
It’s just tiring to be the only one (maybe on this blog?) who thinks sex should be a deep bonding experience instead of something you do to show off how many times you can get laid, for both men and women. And the idea of having deep emotional bonds with 40 people is, frankly, ridiculous. Again, for BOTH men and women.
@Sayanta, your beliefs are your beliefs, and if you plan on asking the men you date and sleep with how many partners they’ve had, please don’t make the mistake of assuming that a guy who has had 2 partners is automatically safe.
Herpes and HIV are of course lifelong conditions, and a person can get them from one sexual encounter.
The reason I find the discussion about numbers to be silly is that a)if someone asks, they want to hear a low number and anyone thinking will probably reduce it and b)it doesn’t tell me anything about the risks of sleeping with that person.
Your best bet is to use barrier methods of birth control and to not sleep with anyone without you BOTH getting screened for STDs. I mean, based on what you guys are saying, you assume all people who have slept around must have a disease, but it’s just not possible for them to be walking around untreated for things like HIV, and for the other things, they get them, they take meds, and they get better, so your risk with that person isn’t any higher unless they are CURRENTLY infected.
So if you’ve had 2 lovers and you date someone who has had 20, you should BOTH get tested before sleeping with each other.
I’d buy the discomfort argument more than the medical argument since infected is infected and the only way to know that is to see a doctor.
Sayanta, I feel the exact same way as you do, so you’re not the only one who has a belief in sex as something sacred. Quite a few potential boyfriends had the nerve to challenge me on this and tried to imply that I was one who used sex as a “bargaining chip” (which I find is now an overused terms some men use to pressure a woman into sex before she’s married), but I stuck to my guns and found a man who felt the same way as I did. (And note, I didn’t necessarily believe in waiting for marriage — although I respect that choice — but there wasn’t going to be any sex after just 2-3 dates.)
That’s just me and I’m speaking for myself on this. Not judging anyone who feels otherwise.
BUT… to also agree with your point, just as I had those standards for myself, I had them for the men I dated. So while I did not ever ask for a number, I found that men with lots of sexual experience seemed eager to volunteer that information to me without my asking. I mentally crossed them off my list.
So all of that said, there are no double standards on my part… so, if I met a man who wanted a woman who hadn’t “slept around” much, I would expect him to have a short sexual history too. I have no problem with a man wanting a woman with a limited sexual history, but if he had a lengthy one, I shot him down just as quickly.
Men with double standards never bothered me because I simply rejected them. I think more women should as opposed to getting annoyed by men who have them.
Sorry, I meant to say…
Quite a few potential boyfriends had the nerve to challenge me on this and tried to imply that I was one who used sex as a “bargaining chip” (which I find is now an overused terms some men use to pressure a woman into sex before she’s in a relationship with him or gotten to know him better and feels comfortable sleeping with him.)
I think I had marriage on the brain from another post…
But yes, I’ve had men who started using that “you use sex as a bargaining chip” or “you use sex as a reward” thing after just two dates when I said that I merely wanted to get to know him better and enter a relationship before sex.
Seriously guys, the prudes will attract prudes. The “bad” girls will attract guys who love, appreciate and accept them as well.
Life is abundant. Be true to who you are and live your life to the fullest. You have only yourself to answer to. You are the best person who knows what you want and need and what’s best for you. Other people don’t live in your body, or your life.
Nobody defines you but yourself. Only those with low self-esteem will let others do that. If others have a problem with that, let them suck it up.
Ellen @ 131 said “Listen, women have strong sex drives also. What are we supposed to do Ron, Hadley et al., sit on our hands?
I re post what I said above, which you may have missed. “So here is my actionable info. . . >>Keep it to yourself.”
Ellen, I did not say don’t have an active sex life. I said most men don’t want to hear it. And you don’t have to lie. Just say something to the effect “ that’s something I don’t want to share with you at this time”.
You don’t need to make a political statement out of your very active sexuality. Well you can, but it will not (IMHO) serve you well in your quest for an satisfying LTR. This sharing of your active sexual past is a way over-share for most men.
I have seen this many times in different forms. Women seem to have this trait that men seem not to have and that is the need to have their partner buy into and accept all their philosophy and politics: to be fully understood and fully accepted. Many arguments ensue as a result. No doubt many otherwise successful relationships have been damaged by this attribute. Guys seem much more comfortable with the fact that their women has problems with some of their attributes. They don’t need her buy-in on everything. Bottom line>> YOU DON”T HAVE TO SHARE EVERYTHING!
But if you can’t let go of the double standard or hypocrisy that exists, fine– rail against society. Bring up this “very important fact about yourself” that you must share with all potential partners. As I said above, I don’t think it will be a strategy which will increase your likelihood of finding (and keeping) a satisfying LTR, which as I recall is the stated goal of this site.
Katarina, how are you defining the word “prude”?
SS, it doesn’t matter how I define it, different people have different standards. The point is you will attract the kind of person you are. Birds of the same feathers flock together. Just be who you are and dismiss naysayers since they are not in your dating pool anyway.
What they think is IRRELEVANT.
Gotcha.
I agree wholeheartedly with this…
Just be who you are and dismiss naysayers since they are not in your dating pool anyway.
What they think is IRRELEVANT.
@ Hadley, I totally agree with this: “I re post what I said above, which you may have missed. “So here is my actionable info. . . >>Keep it to yourself.” Don’t ask, don’t tell, your past sex life probably isn’t the best date-conversation subject anyway. My problem on this thread and the other one, has been with the guys who say they insist on having a woman tell them their number, and then will use their stealth investigation techniques to verify that the number she gave them is correct. Holy cow.
@ Goldie – I think you misunderstood the “verifying numbers” thing. Now maybe I did as well, but I think what he was saying was, there are many ways for info to come out like that – ex. small world syndrome. It’s not that hard to fathom somebody knowing the girl you are dating and her reputation (especially if it’s a slut). I don’t think it’s as important to know the exact number as it is the “range” it falls in. Since I know you will insist on an example let’s say for a 25 yr old woman - 3 would be “respectable” and 22 would be “dish rag”
I hope in all the irrational hoopla, the people who think being a slut is fine can at least take a step back, inhale deeply, and notice all the personally attacks and name calling coming from your side. The people are anti-slut are simply saying they would not respect those choices and would DQ that person from LTR consideration. The pro-slut people however feel entitled to make personal attacks, engage in name calling, and otherwise negative and baseless claims.
Some commenters on here did make a good point about sluts sticking with their fellow sluts and prudes acting similarly alike. Perhaps the problem is a lot of slutty women aren’t finding enough of slutty men who finds such traits appealing in their significant other. I believe if they did – conversations like the one on this thread wouldn’t even be popping up.
If your low self esteem has lead you to sleeping with a bunch of dudes for self validation – good for you, and also more power to you as you embrace your sexuality. But.I.Don’t.Just.Want.You. Period.
Saint Stephen, NO they specifically love sluts ’cause we are uninhibited in bed and it’s much more fun. And puhleaasee…our self-esteem is high enough not to worry about narrow-minded judgmental naysayers like yourself. We don’t seek validation through having sex anymore than you do through not having sex. We have sex because we want it and considering we exist because of sex in the first place, who can blame us?
Great sex is good for our physical and mental health. I don’t see why something that is good for us is forbidden?
Just live our own respective truths and leave others alone.
Here’s another perspective on the matter:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/intelligent-lust/201112/why-i-advocate-casual-sex
And how loathsomely patronizing that is anyone who thinks he is above others only because he has less sex than them and consider it a some kind of sickness/mental disorder (read: If your low self esteem has lead you to sleeping with a bunch of dudes for self validation – good for you”).
Obviously a mental health expert/professional who has been treating thousands of patients is much more informed than he is on the matter.
I’m a little confused. Why are the women who are promiscious mad if a guy doesn’t like them because of their number? Aren’t women just as likely to judge men based on their own numbers, albeit, in different categories? Like for instance the number is his bank account, or the number of his height, or the number of times he’s been arrested, or the number…….I think you see where I am going with this. Isn’t it a little arrogant to think another person doesn’t have the right to reject you based on their own criteria? Especially if it something involving their morals?
DMC, I don’t care about your morals and you have no right to judge other people’s morals based on arbitrary number which differs from person to person (it’s all very subjective). That’s stupid and arrogant. And to make a false generalization (mind you I’m pro-generalizations, valid ones that is) that this is widely accepted by majority of men is uncalled for.
That’s obviously not the case. The best you can get is 50/50 between those guys who are okay with women like me vs. those who reject us. So don’t act like you got everything figured out. That’s what I’m disputing, other than that I have no interest who you and your ilk are rejecting because men like you don’t interest me in the slightest.
Katarina
I don’t want a woman with masculine energy. I see a woman who indulges in strings of casual sex – void of emotional attachment – as embodying masculine energy.
Would you date a man who refuses to pursue, woo and treat you – regardless of how great he was in other aspects? So please spare me all your rationalizing bullshit, because you aren’t any better. Besides I never said i was the only man on planet earth. You claim your dating life is perfect and wonderful yet you always seem to engage all the men who expressed their dissatisfaction for a promiscuous woman in a verbal ping-pong.
Like i said before, a conservative religious man wont even give a promiscuous woman the time of the day – much less of settling down with her. Based on that we can conclude that liberal men are the ones who will chose to reap the fruits of feminism and then look for a liberal minded but sexually conservative woman to settle down with. Unless all liberal men find a promiscuous woman appealing enough to settle down with her - your 50/50 ration is unfounded.
If your dating and relationship life is great – why all the vitriol? Perhaps you see our comments as a personal indictment, but it’s not. Just expressing my unwillingness to consider a promiscuous woman for a meaningful relationship – that’s all!
SStephen
I don’t think casual sex without emotional attachment is ‘masculine energy’- it’s a sign of a person who is cut off from his or her emotions- this isn’t masculine OR feminine. It’s just messed up.
And to add to my comment- if you want to have sex without acknowledging the other human being involved, why not just use a vibrator? Or whatever sex toy currently available.
Saint Stephen, you have the right to want whatever you want. No skin off my nose. My and many women’s experiences simply overrule your generalization that most men think the way you do.
Thank God, they don’t. Even I have dated conservative Republicans who don’t think like you do. Yes 50/50 is about the best bet you can expect. I would assume, most guys who really like a woman and find a whole package in a woman won’t care about that. Just my experience.
@ #142
“I hope in all the irrational hoopla, the people who think being a slut is fine can at least take a step back, inhale deeply, and notice all the personally attacks and name calling coming from your side. The people are anti-slut are simply saying they would not respect those choices and would DQ that person from LTR consideration. The pro-slut people however feel entitled to make personal attacks, engage in name calling, and otherwise negative and baseless claims.”
Right, because “slut” is an affectionate term of endearment. Not name-calling at all.
@ #146
“Aren’t women just as likely to judge men based on their own numbers, albeit, in different categories? Like for instance the number is his bank account, or the number of his height, or the number of times he’s been arrested, or the number…….I think you see where I am going with this. ”
Yeah I see where you’re going — somehow, having sex with a man is now equivalent to having a criminal record.
Personally, I don’t have a dog in this fight — this has never been an issue for me in my dating life — I don’t move in the same circles you guys do, I guess. I just think that men that are concerned about a woman’s number, should put their money where their mouth is and not have sex with anyone they’re not married to, ever. Otherwise they’re just increasing the number of sluts in this world. At this rate, soon enough, there’ll be no honest women left for the poor conservative religious guys to settle down with. Scary thought.
Goldie, spot on! Conservative dudes, keep your pants zipped-up and then you can whine about sluts!
I don’t move the same circles as those guys do either, obviously so from my vantage point there is plenty of fish.
Blonde lovers don’t date me so the guys I know love brunettes and brunettes only. To each their own and let’s leave it at that.
You don’t understand, Katarina… Men shouldn’t have to keep themselves zipped up… Only women should… Because men and women are different…And they should be judged differently…Women are sluts for having monogamous sex with a number of men over the years… Men are just doing what their DNA programs them to do…And that’s why this isn’t a double standard at all… Can’t you see?!
@ Goldie 152
You cherry-picked there, as I noticed you chose to ignore the other examples of undesirable qualities. I think an objective observer would say it made your argument look weaker.
@ Katrina 153
As a conservative dude who does keep his pants zipped, you still do not seem to respect our opinions, as you’ve attacked me is several threads. I have to agree with St. Stephen as this clearly has struck some sort of nerve with you. I certainly didn’t mean to personally offend you and I doubt the other men did. Please don’t take things so personally.
@ Evan 154
I think you were trying to be sarcastic, but women and men ARE very different in many respects. I think when it comes to sex, certainly so. That said, I don’t condone promiscuity for either men or women. Also, I think your example is a bit extreme and not representative of most women. Most of the single women I’ve known certainly had their “wild phase” and engaged in casual sex outside of monogomous relationships. Also to be clear – and in reference to you other thread about Alice/Dylan – many women engage in sex before a relationship becomes monogomous. For instance Alice did, in hopes it would go further, but it didn’t. I think it would be disengenous to put those under the same umbrella as a person who waits for a true commitment. Hope is not a real good strategy.
Evan 154, love ya when you’re being sarcastic.
Here’s the viewpoint of someone who’s been very conservative personally: I do think people need to be careful about multiple sexual partners, not necessarily for moral reasons, but because of the very real risk of STIs. HOWEVER, I think STIs are over-stigmatized in our society. They are simply a class of infections transmitted in a particular way. If some of the stigma were removed, then it’s likely that people would be more vigilant about being checked themselves and about sharing this knowledge with partners.
Placing a stigma on any kind of disease has, historically, always hampered the progress of preventing or curing it – because far too much energy is put into the blaming and shaming and hiding, and not into the real need to share information. I think we should be aware that these types of infections exist, they are common, they are persistent in some cases and temporary in others, and they are not in and of themselves a reason to shame anyone.
@ Helen
Surely you must differentiate between self-inflicted diseases vs. those that are more by chance. I don’t think it’s just STD from unsafe sex that gets this. Diabetes from obesity, lung cancer from chronic smoking – I think it’s human nature to look at these different than say a child who develops cystic fibrosis or some such. It could be dangerous to deflect blame and responsibility for those that can be avoided to some degree.
I agree with Evan’s “Men are sexual hypocrite”. When I was young, my dad had warned me about that. My current boyfriend, on few occasions (even now), is tempting me to have sex with him. He didn’t ask for sex bluntly, but rather using ”testing water” strategy. There’s once he asked, “I can’t torch you?” I jokingly said, “Aren’t you torching me now? Certain boundaries you can’t have access.” He asked, “When can I have access?” I said, “You already know the answer.” He was smiling & seems to be deep in thoughts…
The risk I am taking is he will leave me if I refuse sex. If he does leave, it saves me the heartache. If he doesn’t, I have a boyfriend worthy of me. A boyfriend worthy of me is able to stand the test of time.
most men cant go long without sex. men dont feel connected to a partner without it. hey its biology 3 dates max and then its the sheets or dont call me again.
Honestly,If a man who truly loves you will wait for you to have Sex.
Now if you want to give up the goods at the first date that is your call.But do not blame the Guy for servicing the goods and leaving!
Why would any self respecting woman submit herself to a man on the 1st date anyways.Yu do not know that man..Neither does he know you.
You are basically going on a date for SEX and nothing More!
And THis article about Modern day whatevr bull shit..
Sex and Relationship is no different through the centuries.
Albeit..We are in the 21st Century Yes..But Still Morals and Values Stand firm and true through out tome. if you want to have a relationship that meaningful..
Sex is Sex IS SEX!
LOVE Always and has nothing to do with SEX!
That is why a man knows the difference between love and Sex better than a woman!
True Sex ..it is Extremely important to a relationship..I am in full agreement.
But a woman should Never Ever sleep with a man on the 1st date much less the 3 or 4th..She should gave him a period of at least 3 months.Which is fine..
Why give up the goods, if the person turns out to be a douche!
We are so busy trying to rush through time we do not really GIVE TIME to make a relationship better..Men and Women..
Take TIME to know who you are with..
Take Time to Understand the Person you are with..
Take time to Enjoy the Company of that Person you are with
Take Time to Know Yourself and how this person makes you into a better person and, or if this person brings great qualities out of You or Not.
Take Time Is the Message really…
We are all rushing into relationships and when it does not work out we wonder why and what happened..to make it end..or not work out..
Men knows within 30 seconds if the want to Fuck you, or Marry you or have a long term relationship by the way in which you carry yourself!
That is true..
To a man Self respect is worth Rubies in his eyes.
He knows if you are going to cherish yourself 1st before someone cherishes YU!
And if you do not care about yourself or your reputation then Why should he care?
If you want to Give Sex on the 1st date.I am sure he is not going to say NO!
If he can test Drive and Leave without as much as a THanks for the ride!
SO I think what i really want to say is this..
If you want Sex..Then go about doing whatever it is you want..Sex on the 1st date or whatever.
IF you want Love and Respect from a Man then Yu let Him Wait..
Cause you need to know IF he is the man who will love you and take the time to really understand and know WHO YOU ARE!
Some people will disagree with my opinion..That is fine..But I want to say is this..Yes, we are in a Modern Age..But, as I said..THe values, Traditions..And Thinking of a MAN IS still the Same!
HE wants a WIFE who will love him and care for him and any children they should have.Period.
No one can alter that In a Man..That is how it is ..and It is never ever going to change.
THe time will change but in the heart of ALl Men-They know what they want and do not want out of a WOMAN.
It is really that Women are failing to Understand the Heart and Mind of a MAN!
Men Loves Sex.But they want Love Most of All!
And a woman explaining to a man why she wants to take time to get to know him before Sex is sure to make his Eyes Look at her with great Admiration and Respect!
@chance
I love you haha!
David # 65
You know her ex was abusive, you know she has trust issues.
She is starting to trust you because you ‘seem’ to be ‘serious’. She is coming around, that is why she is contacting you,…and you want to trash the trust you have already established with her,… Nice guy!
Whatever you have decided, that you’re in or out, make it clear! She does not need you to use her and convince her, all men are ‘abusive’, using, assholes.
You are all absolutely clueless.
Nic # 160
Absolutely! Culture may say things are ‘different’ but people are the same no matter what the Century.
If he wants sex he will disappear quickly when he does not ‘get any’ but be aware that a man may stay around just for the challenge as well.
Women need to ‘guard’
themselves and wait,….. for their own safety,…on multiple levels.
Every man will honestly tell you, ‘men are dogs’.
This is going to sound extremely nuts but my wife made me wait 6 months but it wasn’t a set time in her mind it was more like we had to build this emotional connection. I was practically writhing in pain (lol) but during the course of that suffering I found out she is amazing. We fell in love, and when it happened I felt even closer to her. It was like everything became intense and we been riding that high ever sense. We have been together for 6 years married for 3. I’m not a fan of waiting but I had a one track mind until she showed me how amazing she is. So ladies if you are making him wait, do not sit idly by as he suffers in anticipation. The best thing about this time is that you have his undivided attention. Be yourself but show him how you feel about him in other ways.
Bravo- Actually what you said is not nuts at all.
But what you said was very important.
And that is Emotional Connection.
When there is emotional Connection between a man and woman.The relationship is off to a great start.A man will fall in love with you.
Time is what i was saying from my earlier post.
Taking the time to know the person you are with And establish- A bond-Trust-Respect-loyalty.
It is very hard for a Man or Woman to walk away from a relationship with those element are involved.
Being yourself is very important.
Making the person you are with Understand who you are..What you love and what you want out of life is important.
I know many men and woman have become jaded and many carry resentment from past relationships and whatever.
But just seeking Sex is not going to make anyone happy..except for the few out there..who do exist.
Men are wonderful-Truly wonderful!
Men Want to be happy and they do want to live happy lives with a great woman.Who will stand by them no matter what.
So here is what i am saying- If you want only Sex- then that is all you are going to get.
Lol..You might even get bad sex too!
And is bad sex worth it?
You give what you get really..
But regardless- women need to wait.
Wait ..Do not give a man sex on the 1st date-or the 3rd or 4th date.
Be smart-Be wise.
We can all make very bad mistakes when we are so desperate for any affection really.
And having sex with someone- who you do not know is not going to make you happy!
If you want love- admiration-respect- loyality…You can find it..and it does exist..
You cannot find or get these qualities rushing into a sexual relationship.
Wow, it seems that the Old Sin Nature has the majority of us all fooled. Man by Nature is Sinful. What did the Lord God tell Adam and Eve: not to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. They were fine till they ate the Forbidden Fruit.
By the way, the Forbidden Fruit was a Grape. So, now for over 6000 years since Adam and Eve man has for the most part been Doing HIS OWN thing: Opposite of what the Lord God had told us to do. Just think if they would have Obeyed God. How much better off would the world be?
Well, God gave us Free Will. Otherwise we would be Robots. But Truthfully, He Placed in His Word(a King James Bible) how we should act toward a Woman we want to love. I am far from Perfect, and Sadly am going through a Second Divorce.
My First Wife I truly loved, and waited till we Married to be Intimate! Wow, you talk about something Incredible! She had a 12 year old (before Wedlock) who did not want her Mother Married. The Daughter was the Wedge that broke us up. (She, the daughter some years later called to Apologize. The Stepdaughter was now a Stepparent herself and realized how good I tried to be to her. She destroyed the joy that my first Wife and I had. Sadly, my first Wife was not able with her daughter to keep her in check.)
In my Second Marriage, my Estranged Wife saw me as a Meal Ticket and Decided on the first date (knowing I was real Vulnerable. It had been 10 years since my Divorce) to coax me into Sex. Big Mistake for myself! I had gone to meet her with every intention of just getting to know her. She pushed herself on me. And while I am an adult I was not strong enough to resist her. Just like Adam in the garden I gave into to sin.
So, I can tell you from experience (as a Christian and a Man) that if you Really Like someone WAITING is the Key to Real Love. You see, if your Frame of Mind is Focused on how the Lord Jesus Christ had created our Roles as Men and Women are to be(no sex till marriage) and each person has that proper frame of mind WAITING can be The Best Goal for your Relationship. I truly believe this and if Both Parties have the Same Belief then as difficult as it may seem in this Sex Crazed Society : Real Love Can Wait.
There is a difference between Infatuation and Real Love. It depends on What you Men and Women Want. Honestly, I want a Wholesome thinking Woman who will Love me for who I am : A Gentleman, Kind, Loving, Giving, and very Caring Man who is not only Totally Loyal to 1 Woman; but Who will Be to her all I can as a Godly Man.
Sadly, I let Infatuation win instead of True Love: it has been a Costly Divorce I am still going through. I made the mistake of Not being the Man God had Created us Men to be. All it got me has been serious Heartache, Pain and so far has cost me over $100,000 dollars and counting.
My Advice for all those Men out there is 1. First Trust Christ Jesus as Savior (Believe that He died for your sins, was Buried and Rose Again in your Heart) 2. Become the Man God created us to be and 3. Then Act like the Man God Created you to be and
Then True Love will be yours! I mean, come on People…If you want Love that Lasts this is really the only answer.
Sex is not Love, but True Love does have Sex as a part of it. True Love is much better than all this Sex the World is having with No Real Purpose in it! And when we have Sex with no purpose involved You are Not Better than an Animal!!
(Thanks for the Random capitalization! – the Jewish Atheist Moderator)
I always find it amusing when women ask why it is cool for a guy to sleep with tons of women, while a girl who sleeps around is considered a slut. If you think about it, that is really, really dumb question. Why? Because the answer is so damn obvious.
Men and women have totally different views on the value of “experience” in potential mates. Most men would consider a girl who has been with too many partners as loose. And most women would classify a guy who hasn’t been with enough partners as a loser.
So there you go. Women are attracted to promiscuous men, while men are attracted to non-promiscuous women (which, like most aspects of human psychology, probably has roots in evolutionary adaptation). For women to try convince men that “sluts” are just as wholesome as the less experienced girls would be the equivalent of men trying to convince women that shy, nerdy, socially awkward nice guys are just as desirable as suave “bad boys”.
I’m going to try and keep this short otherwise I really get upset.
My husband and I hadn’t had sex in 45 years! That was on our wedding night, the first, last and only time. He told me he didn’t like it, it was digusting, no excitement, no meaning and just plain blah. Also that will never happen again. and it hasn’t happened again. He set up housekeeping in the basement then traded his day time job for a midnight job. He treats me like an apartment deweller. We never see each other, never talk for months at a time . We do live in the same house and thats it. He lives like a hermit and the last time I saw him he looked terrible like a home less person. I try to live my life sort of upbeat, try and stay away from our home, and associate with people I enjoy being with.
This is my own personal experience and not meant as advice or the truth on men or dating…just my life experience. First, at the age of 43, i am finding that men my age do not want anything more than to get it in. They only want an orifice, any orifice will do as long as its attached to a woman. She , the human being, does not matter. I have also learned that they will say anything to get in your pants. Anything, especially all the thing we women want to hear. So the bottom line is this: he is never interested in you, only sex and if you put out for him in the hopes that he will stick around, then you are a fool.
i have been on every pay and free dating site and have never met a man who wanted to date. If you press them hard enough, they will admit they just want to get it on, get it in and get going. I, personally, find sex without commitment nothing more than two strangers fumbling around like a bunch of boobs. She’s hoping he will call and he’s hoping to God she doesnt ask for his number. So knowing that i will never find a man who wants to commit , i no longer engage in sex. I have found that my life is 1000 times more fulfilling now that i am not fucking strangers and have found other things that are more enjoyable than sex with some moron I met on a dating site or in a bar.
Amy – i’m sad for you. and remember that is NOT ABOUT YOU! it is his stuff. and you deserve so much more. congratulations that you have at least gone out and made a life for yourself. but even 45 years on it is not too late to experience that side of your life again.
The majority of men will tell you straight what they want out of life if you simply ask them up front. I always do on the first date so I don’t waste my time on someone who only wants to be friends (which usually means with benefits), and no possibility of commitment. The man I’m with now told me he doesn’t want to be in an intimate relationship unless it’s exclussive. He said just what I wanted to hear since I feel the same way too.
Just curious, but isn’t sex without love ultimately a psychological dead end? I’ve had sex just for fun with someone I barely knew but in the end, for me anyway, unless I had some feeling for the person that kind of sex wasn’t an enriching experience. I’m not saying that first time sex can’t be an awesome experience or even a moving experience, but usually that occurrs when you feel something for the person beyond mere attraction – which can happen on a first date. The guy I’m with now I initially turned down when he asked me for a date. But one day he did something that melted my heart and I’ve been crazy about him ever since. Weird, but it was almost like an empathy I felt towards him too. And the sex is a phenomenal transportative experience that I’ve just never got from a one night stand.
I haven’t read all of these! but thanks to the guy “CHANCE” and everything he wrote. Thank you! I am a 41 year old female that is a single nursing student now. I also have no children and am retired from the Navy after 20 years. Dating is extremely hard but finding love is important to me because I’d rather not end up alone in a retirement home, it would remind me of the ship (again) LOL Anywho, “Love is not sex but sex is part of love.” Your so right Chance it is so much more than that! the way a person treats you without getting something says how much they enjoy being around you. Thanks for reminding me before my date tomorrow! =D
Very good advice, Evan. And I’d like to add that, in my experience, when a guy is very interested in you, he will go out of his way to let you know that *before* you have sex. A guy who wants to make you his girlfriend wants you to know he’s interested in more than just sex with you before you sleep together. So I think his behaviour before and around the time of having sex should weigh in heavily on whether you decide to go for it.
My boyfriend and I slept together after a week, but by then he had taken me on a couple of expensive dates and we had spent an entire long weekend of affection and companionship together, and he waited till the last night of the weekend, so that it didn’t feel like he was rushing me.
In my experience, a guy who is only interested in sex won’t bother to build up an emotional connection first, and won’t show any interest in your feelings about where the relationship may be heading, and I think expectations after sex with such a man should be extremely low.
This is all I’ve been finding lately, actually. I’m 45 now and the men I’ve been meeting (from 40 – 55) all want sex by the third date … and I’m getting tired of it. How do you get a commitment from a man if he’s pushing sex from the very start (and I’m not talking about marriage … I’m talking about the two of you only seeing and sleeping with each other)? And even after they tell you they will drop the subject, they still push … to the point of taking you to a bar on a date rather than dinner (the original plan) when they’ve picked you up after work and know you haven’t had anything to eat … and they also know you rarely drink. Yeah, I foiled this one … I ordered a bar burger and a coke instead of a beer! And this one was a blind date through a friend rather than someone on a dating site. I never thought I would actually come to this belief … I’ve wanted to believe that there were still good men out there … but it seems that all I’ve been meeting lately are pigs! It doesn’t matter whether you sleep with them or not … they still drop you. I’m to the point where dating isn’t even worth my time!
Seriously let’s just give up and get a house full of cats!!!
I hate this topic more than anything, it is THEE most confusing thing…. EVER!!!
and seriously it’s massively time consuming…. we could all be like genius’ if we put half the effort and thought that we do into this topic in quantum mechanics or soemthing and just get dildos.
most men that I end up out with usually want you to committ to them after 2 or 3 dates which I mean I almost laugh at, that’s ridiculous and usually just so they can get laid. then they throw a hissy fit if you say something like that’s a little fast, maybe we should get to know each other better… at which point they either never call again or they call ALL the time or they move you to texting, email, or phone conversations and dont take you out again until they think they’ve put in their “time” and then do ask you out again and if you dare go, they typically expect the sex. My FAVOURITE are the guys who suggest that you have trust or committment issues because you are unwilling to committ to them (meaning give the sex) after a couple of dates… i call those guys sore losers.
I have to laugh at this one guy’s approach…. he had this whole time line set out (he was also sure to tell me from the very start that he was not a douche bag). So I listened… So the time line was he would wait the standard 3 months before sex or committment but would only take me out every 3 weeks to very nice restaurants where he proceeded to do all the talking rarely asking anythiing of myself… he never contacted me during the 3 week breaks to talk at all, he was a good looking guy and great to kiss but hell no I wasn’t going to sleep with him after hearing that time line thing or the fact that I think I could have been from Mars and he wouldn’t have known because he never bothered to ask me anything - essentally 4 dates in 3 months…. I very much enjoyed the expensive dinners he paid for and the kissing and promptly dumped him after the 3 months. omg he was so arrogant!!! he told me he wanted his money back from the dinners
he actually kinda chased me for a while after that… i never gave in lol
i get that guys love sex, omg I love sex too (with the right partner and wow that’s a whole other topic), but I think the thing with women is, we don’t want to sleep with a guy unless we have feelings for him, unless we see him as a potential boyfriend, husband, long term relationship prospect. So if we do sleep with them because we see them as possibly this and then they ditch us because all they wanted was sex, it’s kinda devastating and YES it affects the way we feel about the next guy and about ourselves. Men want love too, I know that but somehow it’s this sort of pure girl love or where you can be their sort of dare I say it…. mothers? we aren’t all pure girls and we don’t all want to be your freakin mothers and honestly we hate this game and that’s why we often choose cats and dildos over you! (actually the dildos because of the whole lousy sex thing
I agree with Evan, wait until you know if he wants you or sex. In the long run it’s just easier than all the time you’ll waste feeling like crap if you do it with him and he ditches you. And I like one girl’s comment in here about getting good at being alone, just be alone for awhile, prepare yourself to be alone until you find someone who is right for you, it’s just way less hassle than being in the wrong relationship or getting used. that’s my opinion anyway, everyone is looking for different things. I just want someone I can TRUST, be good friends with as well as a lover – much harder to find than you’d think!
Evan,
Thank you so much for sharing this!!!
I’ve been wondering if I had done the right thing but after reading this article it put my mind at ease. I went out with this guy who seemed really cool. We went out 5 times over the course of almost two months but we didn’t speak every day, etc. He seemed very cool and romantic and even introduced me to his bother, close friends and two kids on our 4th date. I was under impression that this was turning into a relationship. Then after that date (we made out for like 2 hours) he told me that he can’t decide if he wants a woman to be his girlfriend until he sleeps with her.
I was kind of shocked and disappointed hearing this after hanging with his family and kids. On our 5th date the subject came up again at which point I asked him if this was going to be an exclusive relationship and at first he said I was his girl, but when I asked again he freaked out and said that he can’t make that determination until he sleeps with me many times.
I’m still confused as I thought he really liked me.
margarita
i think it’s a bit nutty to introduce a virtual stranger to your kids and family. it’s irresponsible to your date and to your kids. while you may be thinking HE REALLY LIKES ME, the kids are thinking, “another one of daddy’s pretty friends”!
as for when to have sex:
1. when you don’t care if you’ll hear from them again
2. when you do care and are sure that you will
and
3. when you don’t need to have sex to prove to anyone, least of all yoruself, that you’re attractive, worthwhile, sexy etc.
Personally, I will wait until I am married. That’s not a foolproof strategy either, cos there’s the danger of getting married just to have sex!
Sooo, however long you wait or don’t wait, be observant of what is going on with yourself, with him and the relationship, rather than follow a formula. However, there is, overall, no harm in waiting a little longer than you have been if you’ve been dating a while and finding it’s not working out. Give yourself and him time to make a genuine emotional connection. That can’t be rushed and no grand gesture and fancy words can shortcut just spending time with someone.
And if he bails after three date or whatever, wave him goodbye. that’s not the man you want for keeps anyway. And to all the men who think that’s ridiculous, what will you be teaching your daughters?
Usually, at least in my environment, a man do not consider a woman his girlfriend after he makes love several times to her and likes it.
Making love may be a dealbreaker if it is not satisfactory after one or 2 months, but not making love is a dealbraker.
The best way of making the relationship solid, more if you are young is to become, at first, lovers, or friends with benefits, freedom is good, even if you do not practice it.
if you are good lovers – good and frequent sex – you do not look for more, and if someday you are tempted is very difficult that one night stand sex to be better than a relationship sex, because you understand each other sexually experimenting.
If you are a virgin, sex can begin with face kissing, and oral sex, you can wait until second encounter to have penetration, but if you are heterosexual, probably you will have several boyfriends, sometimes even two at the same time until you find your husband, and as much experience in sex and relationships you have you will be happier with your future husband.
Do not put your standars for having fun sex at the same level you will do to look for your husband – more or less at every society at the same age -and today is not usual to marry your first lover.
Lesbian porno is the best way to learn good sex for a virgin, men do like to be touched too as porno lesbian do more than hetero porno shows, remember it, slow kissing and touching with a hard final is the best sex for men and women, and oral sex before the last penetration is the best way to begin.
this makes me friggin’ depressed. I’m only 20 and debating if i should just have casual sex with some strangers just so they feel like becoming my bf or if i should remain a pure little virgin for the guy who probably won’t be a virgin. hmm, but then i think f*ck it. if a do fall in love and he *supposedly* is in love with me why should he friggin’ care?. i believe that “in this moment i love you. we all have pasts. but i’m choosing you from this moment on and forever so the rest is history. “
So I decided to not bed down with ANY guy unless he could prove to me that he was boyfriend potentially long term material…. one year later, still hadn’t had sex after MANY dates!! dated a nice guy for awhile until he admitted that he really just wanted sex from me, not a relationship, not so nice guy.
Anyway, so at the one year mark I was pretty much losing my mind… then out of the blue I get a message from a guy i had gone on one date with years ago literally my first date after getting out of a long term relationship AND I had slept with him on the first date, heard from him once or twice after but never again. Thing is… on the date I honestly had feeling like this is a guy I could get serious about BUT I just got out of long term relationship soooo didn’t feel ready.
Anyway, so here I am one year no sex and potential guy I actually REALLY liked has asked me out… well u know what happened… hours of talking and then hours of sex. and I only did it with the thought that he kinda ditched me once, I actually don’t expect to hear from him again…. surprise… he starts messaging me and kind of didn’t stop for a LONG time! meanwhile I’m freaking out cuz here I’ve slept with him and now I like him from all the messaging we’ve done and talking. Well that was a month and a half ago, still haven’t seen him again but he claims he’s just been reallllly busy work and family committments. I told him pretty much up front that that was a one time deal and I won’t repeat unless in an exclusive relationship… so far, no relationship at all.
I can’t figure out if he likes me or not, my instinct would be to say no considering he hasn’t asked me out again but then I’m not sure because of all the messaging and opening up and his excuses re work and family committments. So I feel I’m in a catch 22. He says he doesn’t know about the whole committment thing and that right now we are “friends”, blames it on a couple of bad relationships, a divorce and says he’s not sure about putting his heart into anything… meanwhile I honestly feel like I’ve fallen for him quite a bit, just from all the talking (and of course knowing how compatible we are in the bedroom). however part of me wants to make a break for it because the more we talk the more into it I get and without him making an effort to “date” or even see each other, just feel it isn’t all that real…. ahhhh
blueberrie
you’ve had casual sex with him twice. In six weeks he hasn’t seen you.
this is dead in the water.
Nuke it.
Blueberrie
Sadly Marymary is right He’s not even your friend. Nuke it, learn from it and move on
If you are open to Evans advice, use it and you won’t be single for long At 54 Im smart enough to have learnt anything i can from his advice and I now have a boyfriend who adores me and is the most loving man Ive ever been with in my life. Learning about mirroring and concentrating on how he makes you feel will guide you Also loved Evans Why he disappeared book. Thank you Evan!
Ive learn how I feel when Im not with the guy is the guide No wondering No anxiety No insecurity ….pure happiness. My guy is cute, 10 years younger and committed.
Now I know the difference I won’t go back to guys who ends up making me feel bad
Good luck with things going forward.
MarryMary and Kathleen,
I nuked it. lol I should have clarified, he DID try to see me on numerous occassions but he either wanted me to drive to his place which is about an hour drive which I refused to do or to go away with him on overnight business trips but in both cases it wasn’t a real date in a sense, to me it seemed mostly like him wanting a glorified booty call of sorts and I refused to do that, I just kept saying no or suggesting he do the date thing, come pick me up, go out for dinner etc etc. He eventually got fed up with me saying no to his suggestions, got quite angry with me and then told me that really he’s just a lazy guy in relationships and not interested in doing the whole dating thing. Said he doesn’t usually have to make much of an effort with girls. So I could have been his little ms convenience and MAYBE it would have gone somewhere but I just didn’t want to, I guess I expected more of an effort. and I figured if things did go somewhere it would always be me making the effort (been there done that not doing it again) thoughts? we aren’t talking anymore.
In my opinion, a woman shouldn’t have sex with a man until she is emotionally ready, and the man has displayed in his every action that he wants more tHan sex. Any man not willing to put in the effort to court a woman, make time for her, call her, and most of all wait for her, was never interested anyway and he will fall off there books. Seriously, being true to yourself, is about you as the woman, not the man.
Blueberrie, you received great advice and I admire how you kept the focus on what YOU want/wanted. He can do whatever he’s gonna do, he can go hang out with women who are ‘easier’ than you….that’s his business. He’ll show up again some how, some way. It’s up to you on how you will handle it, no need to be bitchy, this is just all not good enough for you.
As a woman, I just crack up at the ‘men are assholes’ comments I keep reading. Sure men can be assholes, but women can be conniving manipulative bitches. So which is worse?
I don’t believe there is anything wrong with sex as long as there is no malice in it and no one is lying. Many women have strong sex drives as well, like me. But my heart is connected to my body, so I have taken Evan’s advice to heart and I make sure the guy is exclusive with me before we move on to sex. Otherwise, I certainly make sure I know the consequences if I don’t follow that advice.
If a guy knows you want to be exclusive before moving toward sex, then he at least knows you are now just another ho. However, it doesn’t guarantee is he isn’t a lying bastard. You just have to be smart about it all.
the situation maybe abruptly different from one to another. However, we men are incline to judge easily. for example, if a woman gave it to early, and to be precise, the first time she meet the man. we tend to think she is easy, or more like she have done this a lot, and therefore, not worth the relationship commitment. it may sound cruel, but we keep the woman as life boat. when we find another woman, we sink her. men are reductive and instinctively look for the woman who is uphold values, and less plagued with drama and doubt. once the woman gives it easy as the example above, i advise woman to only considered it as strictly sexual and it is a one night thing. otherwise, the emotional consequence will be severe.
the woman will be lip passed from one man to another, as its a trophy they acquired. blaming the man is obvious, but we have to remember, it is an instinctive response, and he will always doubt her. this is common around you women and men. young men can be described as predators, in another words, they play games that fit their situations. when a woman eyes flirt the man. he knows immediately, she is easy and a possible prey. therefore, he plays the hard to get. leading the woman to be interested more, and here , she falls for the trap. whether the man have something else in mind, it will always end up bad. no matter what directions you look at. if the woman did not consider it as a one night stand and avoid the possiblity of getting to know each other after the sex. she should be fine. but once she opens the door for the man after the sex, that is a different story, she is probably already a ring in his finger. he already figured out how to get her into her bed, whether he is handsome, strong, interesting story or funny. he will always get what he wants.
woman may argue this differently, that he cannot have it unless they agree. yes, thats absolutely true, but remember he figured out how to get into your pants, and even if you thought you are the one who made the move.
the advise, do not sleep with men unless you are pretty sure about it. if the situation of first encounter let to sex afterward. then do not even think about knowing him intimately. been friends is possible, but every possible scenario where you sleep with him again, should be thrown out of the windows. or you will be hurt severely. society is harsh, especially if the community is small such as college. once the woman makes that mistake, she will be labeled as the slut, and as the easy one. I have witnessed many of my friends, fallen for that trap.
The most common source of problems in marriages is that the couple misinterpreted their mutual feelings of attraction as love. This normally results in the couple trying to keep up appearances after about 5 years, and wondering where the love went.
It is important to know that attraction is an emotional feeling that may fade, while love is a promise that has nothing to do with attraction. Love is a promise to do 4 things.
1. To accept everything that you know and do not know about her now.
2. To accept her as you both age – for better or worse, richer or poorer, sickness or health for as long as you both shall live. Even if she is disfigured by an accident or crippled by illness, you accept her.
3. To forgive her later. Since neither of you is perfect, you both depend on each others’ forgiveness.
4. To encourage her to improve. This 4th one gives purpose to your relationship – otherwise it will get boring.
If you are both ready to make and keep these promises to each-other, then you are ready to love. When you keep them, you demonstrate your love for each-other. After you formally make your promises at your wedding, you complete or consummate these promises with sexual intercourse. Every time that you subsequently have sexual intercourse, you reinforce your promises – it is truly a beautiful and mutually satisfying experience.
If you have sexual intercourse before making your promises, then you show her that you are capable of justifying forsaking her for a younger, shapelier rival when she gets older. If you are able to restrain yourself when your attraction for her is at its highest, then you show her that you are capable of resisting the rival that will inevitably come.
Source: Attraction is a feeling. Love is a Promise. by Grenville Phillips, president of Walbrent College.
As I said it in my recent blog post, I think When you ask yourself: should I put out? The question should be rephrased to: DO I WANT TO and FOR WHAT REASONS, and CAN I BE OKAY WITH WHATEVER OUTCOME I MIGHT GET OUT OF THIS?