Why Don’t Men Like Smart, Strong, Successful Women?
Hi, Evan.
I’m 41, happy with my rounded self, smart, direct, and articulate.
I’ve been told that my lack of dates is due to:
1) Men don’t like smart, direct women, and
2) I’m centered, which sends the message that I don’t need anyone.
Are men really that insecure? I’m certainly not going to be less than I am just for someone else’s insecurities.
Tell me honestly, Evan – are there any good men out there who appreciate a woman who knows herself?
Michelle
Hi, Evan:
I don’t know what is going on and why I’m lacking luck in finding Mr. Right. I am educated, refined, and a self made millionaire by age 34. I am good looking. Many men, women, elderly, and children of all ages have told me so. People also told me that I am one of nicest and sweetest people they have ever met. Even though I am 36, most of the people I meet would think that I am only 26. Unfortunately, I have been through all kinds of online dates in the last two and a half years. CEOs, doctors, lawyers, hedge fund mangers, business owners, professional athletes, actors, etc… When I am not interested in them, they work for the relationship day and night. When I am committed to them and act nice and devoted, they start to look elsewhere. Anyway, in short, I need some serious help and hope to hear back from you soon. Thank you.
Sincerely,
Catherine
Great letters. Important question. But first I want to start off with a hypothetical email from a man.
Dear Evan,
I’m what you’d call a “nice guy.” I make a good living, I’m pretty attractive, and I treat women well. In fact, all of my female friends comment on what a great catch I am. But then I see those same women dating jerks. Yet they would never consider going out with me! So what do you think? Am I cursed to be alone just because I know how to be kind to women? Isn’t being nice a good quality? What’s wrong with women these days? Please let me know.
Jason
It’s not BECAUSE a guy is “nice” that he’s not attracting women.
Men reading this might empathize with Jason. Women reading this may feel bad for him, yet also want to him to know that it’s not BECAUSE he’s nice that he’s not attracting women. It’s because he’s doesn’t have masculine energy. It’s because he constantly seeks the approval of others. It’s because he’s not sexually aggressive. It’s because he sacrifices his personal power to be conciliatory. These are common attributes of nice guys, yet nice guys think that women don’t like nice guys BECAUSE they’re nice.
Not true. Women want nice guys — nice guys with opinions who stand up for themselves and know how to take control.
Smart women are very much like nice guys.
“I’m intelligent, I’m direct, I’m successful, yet I can’t seem to find a quality guy who appreciates me.”
Men like smart women. I do. My male coaching clients do as well. So how is it that all these successful men are not connecting with all these successful women?…
Because there’s much more going on than merely a meeting of the minds.
What never occurs to some women is that:
They’re being evaluated on far more than their most “impressive” traits.
These traits sometimes come with a significant downside that is painful to acknowledge.
Take me, for example. I’m a reasonably bright guy. I make a fair living. I can write a decent joke. These are my good traits. But right behind my good traits are a series of bad traits. Anyone reading this blog can see that:
…Despite her impressive credentials — attractive, successful, intelligent — she might not be giving men what THEY WANT.
The flip side of being bright is being opinionated.
The flip side of being analytical is being difficult.
The flip side of being funny is being sarcastic.
The flip side of having moral clarity is being arrogant.
The flip side of being entrepreneurial is being a workaholic.
The flip side of being charismatic is being self-centered.
Again, not EVERY person who is bright is opinionated, and not EVERY person who is funny is sarcastic. But there’s enough anecdotal evidence to suggest a strong correlation. And I’m just talking about MYSELF here. And if my good qualities come with bad qualities, have you considered that yours might as well?
So when I hear a woman talk about how “direct” she is, the first thing I think is: “She’s tactless.” I wrote about this in an article for Match.com entitled “Are You Honest… Or Overboard?” Self-proclaimed “direct” people often tell their dates what they think about them even if the date didn’t ask. They often try to change partners who have no desire to be changed. When the partner pulls away because he doesn’t want to be with someone so critical, the “direct” person concludes that he couldn’t appreciate her “honesty.”
If this makes you feel personally indicted, welcome to the club. I’m a “direct” person as well. I write things that are, to say the least, provocative…and yet I always get surprised when I receive angry emails from readers. Hey, I’m just being honest over here! What are you getting so upset about? 😉
See, there’s a price to pay for “being ourselves.” And if you’re going to express your opinion, you can’t be surprised if other people disagree with you. And if you’re trying to win each argument, you can’t be too shocked if he wants a woman who can be a little more acquiescent.
I don’t know Catherine and Michelle. But I do know that they are not alone. Maureen Dowd, the Pulitzer Prize winning columnist for the New York Times, wrote an entire book about this, called “Are Men Necessary?”. One of her main observations is that if an amazing woman like her could be single, there must be something wrong with men. What she doesn’t acknowledge is that despite her impressive credentials — attractive, successful, intelligent — she might not be giving men what THEY WANT.
When a man goes out with a woman, he’s not as concerned with whether she’s articulate and on track to make partner at the law firm. That’s what women want in men and they assume it’s of equal importance to them. It’s generally not. Men DO value intelligence, but they also want from their girlfriend what they CAN’T get from their business associates. Warmth, affection, nurturing, thoughtfulness. If he finds himself constantly hearing all the things he needs to change, he may just determine that he wants a bright woman who is less challenging. Not a Stepford Wife. Not a bimbo. Not a maid. Just someone who makes his life EASIER and more pleasant.
Listen, I’ve spent my life chasing after women I’ve intellectually admired. Invariably, all of them had major issues with me. They’re not wrong for seeing things I could change. But a huge reason I’m with my wife is because she spends her time loving and supporting me, not challenging me on everything from movie tickets, to travel plans, to wake up times. She’s easy, in the best sense of the word.
Men want from their girlfriend what they CAN’T get from their business associates: warmth, affection, nurturing…
This is a real dilemma. You’re undoubtedly a great catch. You can teach us a thing or two. You are a go-getter and worthy of everyone’s respect. But if that go-getter side ends up emasculating your man, or makes him feel insignificant, or second-guessed, he’s not really getting what he wants out of a partner. Men want to feel masculine. We want to feel needed. And with a generation of women who pose questions like “Are Men Necessary?” it’s pretty difficult for us to enjoy our role as men. This doesn’t mean you should play dumb, or be weak and needy, no more than the nice guy should start acting like a jackass. It might mean, however, turning off some of the things that make you “successful” at work. This is a bitter pill to swallow, perhaps even a double standard. Still, it doesn’t change the fact that “hard-driving, opinionated, and meticulous” are not on most men’s lists of ideal feminine traits.
As someone who considers himself smart and direct, take it from me — there’s nothing wrong with these qualities. But if it also coincides with being difficult, dating might be a long, tough road for you.
It certainly was for me.
P.S. Want better results in your love life? For a deeper understanding of what qualities you should be looking for in a man, I invite you to check out “Why He Disappeared — the Smart, Strong, Successful Woman’s Guide to Understanding Men and Keeping the Right One Hooked Forever”.
Hi Evan!
I discovered what you’ve written through taking a self evaluation test. I got these lists of great traits for myself: persuasive, risk taker, competitive, pursues change, confident, socially skilled, inspiring, open & direct. Then on the next page were what you label downfalls, or what the test said was the way people who don’t think exactly like me may see me: pushy, intimidating, overbearing, restless, impatient, manipulative, abrasive, reactive & dominating. Those were some hard words to swallow. It was hard too facing the fact that though I didn’t see myself that way, some others did.
I think it’s not that these smart, successful women are exactly those things either, but they are perceived that way by some – not all – of the men they come in contact with. The trick to that is knowing how the man you’re with is perceiving you, and being able to tone down or turn off the traits he might find as reason to dump you for someone more agreeable.
I used to think this was dumbing myself down, or playing to the masses, being fake, or not true to myself. But what I realized is there’s a reason they call this the dating “game” and if you want to play, you have to learn the rules.
This doesn’t mean I’m not who I am around men, it just means that I use the same skills in my personal life I learned to use in my professional. There are some meetings I can go into and run the show, and others where I have to be subordinate. So I knew if I could learn how to do that professionally and make a success of myself, that I could learn that personally too.
You have managed to put this in a clear easy to understand manner. It’s not playing dumb. It is being tactful. If l can practise this at work, l sure can practise it with my man. May be difficult at first but with nurturing it should become a habit.
You know what is truly disgusting from all these “successful, strong women” commenting? How absolutely sexiest they are toward woman who aren’t as “successful, ambitious, or strong.” So your degree and career make you women more deserving of love than lowly women? Men don’t want to date you because you are ugly on the inside. A teacher or secretary with a sunny disposition beats these career women any day. Check you arrogance. It makes you very off-putting and repulsive. Way to throw women with less ambition, less career success, less forwardness under the bus! But you’d rather be single than compromise … your dream came true! Because the hair dressers, teachers, secretaries, waitresses I know are happily married with loving families. But hey, you career and strong women have your toys and careers! Yay! You must be so happy!!
Obviously, you just missed the point. You solidified the bias that men want ditsy, mousey, weak women who play nice at being told what to do. Yes, strong, hardworking, confident women see this as a weakness and feel it suppresses the equality of the sexes. It’s not because we think we are etter. I promise you that. Its because we don’t like to see men as attracted to this passive behavior. As the writer points out, men want to feel needed, and in charge. To us strong women, you are the ones who appear weak for being able to stand next to a successful women.
I don’t think most men have a problem with successful women, it’s that many successful women forgot how to be soft, and men want soft. Like the Stevie Nicks song says, “Give to me your leather, take from me my lace.” Also, men do want to be a leader for their woman. Is it really that hard to let him? It doesn’t mean you have to act dumb, or incapable. Just let him lead.
Thamk you for writing this. It Is so true and I’ve been needing to hear it from someone for a lomg time. Thanl you for making me feel normal.
Victoria, I read Nick’s post again, and then your post again. I totally disagree with you. In no way did his post solidify ” the bias that men want ditsy, mousey, weak women who play nice at being told what to do.”
Also, men and women are NOT equal. This does not mean one is inferior, or one superior. The truth so many want to deny these days is that we are meant to be a compliment to each other, not a mirror image of each other. We are meant to be two halves of a whole, with each bringing different qualities to the table that feed each others inherent needs.
I’m sick to death of the message that we have to try to force a square peg through a round whole, and that is exactly what the present message to women is, and it comes from many different directions. Those who reject that message are happier in my experience.
Once again, men have no problem with successful women. They have a problem with the personality that many successful women bring to the table. It is the masculine side of your personality that they detest. And it serves no purpose to try to shame them for that, because they aren’t going to be shamed into masculine acting. Can you be shamed into being highly attracted to very effeminate men? I doubt it. What you seem to have a problem with is the natural state of men because it is inconvenient to you. I happen to love men…manly men, and I do not see them as less manly because they are not attracted to masculine qualities in women. Frankly, I see that as nothing more than simply being normal.
Forgot to finish the edit of a sentence. The sentence in question should have read, “And it serves no purpose to try to shame them for that, because they aren’t going to be shamed into being attracted to masculine acting women.”
“You solidified the bias that men want ditsy, mousey, weak women who play nice at being told what to do. Yes, strong, hardworking, confident women see this as a weakness and feel it suppresses the equality of the sexes.”
So you just validated Nick’s entire point, while simultaneously thinking you disagreed. Nice job, that.
Here’s the real kicker, and I’ll fix what I think was a typo, and not just a Freudian slip. “It’s not because we think we are better. I promise you that.”
But wait,.. it’s gets better. Contradictions abound! “To us strong women, you are the ones who appear weak for not being able to stand next to a successful women. “
Way to throw all women who don’t enjoy your preferred life under the bus. Tell me; is there actually room at the top for all women to be successful, or are did you really think that everyone wins in a game with a first place prize?
The really damning part, though, is the really fun bit. “Its because we don’t like to see men as attracted to this passive behavior. As the writer points out, men want to feel needed, and in charge.”
Ah… “…we don’t like to see…” So, really, it’s narcissism. It’s not all about you, therefore everyone else is ditsy, mousey, and weak. And to clarify one bit, the author stated that he thinks men want to feel needed; not in charge. You made that assertion. That’s called psychological projection; you should look it up.
And.. the author is correct. Men do want to be needed. Women will talk about their emotional needs. Men have them too, but often a little different. For us, being needed IS a normal emotional necessity. Dismiss it all you want, but you can’t dismiss the consequences. Treat a man like he isn’t necessary, and he leaves. Deal with it; it isn’t yours to decide.
Euality of the sexes? Sexes are NOT equal. And that’s what’s beautiful and attracts them! That’s what completes them. Sooner or later you’ll realize. For the moment, you can debate your head off with the rest of the sterile crowd following this cult of yours. The reality is that the world of the future will be inherited only by those who get it.
It’s like you just proved his points for him. Lol.
I think JennLee hit it spot on… however, for me, its hard at the end of a day to sometimes transition from work to home…. but I know that I also like when a man wants to protect, take care of, and be respected for his abilities…..
I think single women with children may experience the same, being in charge, all the responsibilities are on them, and then we have to shift gears for men to feed into their ego.
I just had a great guy tell me that he wants to be alone now. It was tough to be the sweet, submissive, and soft woman he wanted when each and everyday is more like a battle ground where I have to hold my own.
I am giving him as much space as he needs not, and if by chance he wants to come back I will need to examine how to be more feminine in how I deal with things.
GirlNextDoor,
I like your post, but you need to make one adjustment to your thinking. You mention having to feed the guy’s ego. Why does it have to be such a negative? Is it just feeding your ego when a man says and does things to make you feel needed, important, sexy, beautiful, etc? Isn’t the whole point of being in a relationship, to give your partner what they need, and get from them what you need? Isn’t it supposed to be a symbiotic relationship? Men NEED to feel respected by their woman. The world today makes that much harder to come by naturally. Technology, etc., have made having a partner in life, not necessary. Society, pop culture, the media, etc., all seem to send very bad messages to us. A man isn’t worthy of respect unless he is either rich, famous, amazingly talented, or a combination of two or more of these.
Maybe you could step outside yourself, then take a long hard look at yourself, and him, then maybe see where he is actually better at something, anything, and then focus on that, and find a way to genuinely respect him as a result.
It’s literally come to the point in this world where I think the best thing that could happen for the relationships between men and women is for us to he knocked back into the stone age so that men and women would once again, actually need each other.
Good comment and role reversal, Rusty. “Feeding the ego” is negative. “Being nice and supportive” is more like it.
“Also, men do want to be a leader for their woman. Is it really that hard to let him?”
Err, yes? Because not every woman is submissive by nature? What about women who don’t want to dominate their partners but don’t want to be “lead”, either? When people leave their parents, they usually don’t look for another father or mother.
Different people, different preferences. Why should anybody jump through hoops?
It’s obvious how insecure and emotionally stunted you are to make such an ignorant statement and why you are happy with dumb and ambitionless women who are most likely after your money and whatever superficial junk you have to offer. Ugliness from the inside does not discriminate. Anyone can be selfish, manipulative, anti-social/socially awkward, caddy, etc….. Whether they are a business owner or a maid. You can be a lazy, two-faced yenta hairdresser or a respectable, driven, no-no-nonsense one. Sounds like you prefer weak minded women bc it’s what elevates you as a man. But that does not create happiness. How are you to grow as a man when the woman you are with is still a child? Grow up.
Um, he never said he wanted dumb and ambitionless women. He especially never mentioned ‘dumb’. And u think women in less highly-paid jobs like secretaries, nurses and teachers are all ambitionless?? I think your comment kinda illustrates what he was talking about.
Annie, I agree with twinkle’s post. You’re putting words in Nick’s mouth.
It’s obvious you’re angry at both men and those “less-ambitioned” women. Get some therapy and figure out why.
My guess is that you envy those “dumb, ambitionless” women because they DO have happy family and relationships unlike yourself.
And you want to denigrate both the men and women because you take pride in your intelligence and ambition. You’re not wrong to take pride in those qualities. But you’re wrong to denigrate others. Shows you’re not a nice person, which is probably why you’re single. Not because you’ve lost out to “dumb, ambitionless” women.
You just have to understand that men don’t “value” intelligence and ambition for relationships. Men want women who make them feel good. Men DON’T want women who are constantly finding fault with them. Men DON’T want angry women. Men are attracted to HAPPY and NICE women. Men would rather have a dumb, nice, happy woman, than a smart, bitchy, angry one.
Learn to appreciate those women who work in jobs you would never consider doing. They work just as hard as us, just in a different way. They’re worthy of your respect, not disparagement.
you must know men do not care at all how successful or unsuccessful or organised or unorganized you are.
1. We have a successful female friend in our group of boys and i like her a lot because she behaves like a sweet little girl and is never an arrogant.PLUS she has a boyfriend who is a nicest man I know.
2. I am in a relationship with a girl for 4 years and i have had always been motivating her to do good in her academic though she was always a confident and hard working , I did every thing that i could have done to make her life easy and now she is earning more than me and i feel so proud of her.
By these 2 example i just want to prove to you that men do not avoid successful women instead they want one. But at last they want a Women who is soft absorbs your stress and frustration make u feel easy and NOT a man with female body.
Karmic equation said: “Men don’t value intelligence”
You can have those men.
I’ll stick with the 99% I’ve met in my life who value good conversation and make no secret they enjoy the company of smart and interesting women.
hmmm wrote:
“You can have those men.
I’ll stick with the 99% I’ve met in my life who value good conversation and make no secret they enjoy the company of smart and interesting women.”
And exactly how many of those men have asked you to marry them?
In the context of relationships, men don’t “require” women to be intelligent. Of course they like and appreciate her intelligence provided that the woman is ALSO attractive, kind, secure, and low drama. You could be the most intelligent obese woman on the planet and men won’t be clamoring to date you, never mind marry you.
Intelligence is a bonus to men looking for relationships. It’s not a pre-requisite.
I’m surprised that as the intelligent woman you imply you are, that you don’t understand that.
@Karmic Equation:
“And exactly how many of those men have asked you to marry them?”
Three. Two exes: an urban planner and an entrepreneur, and my husband, an environmental engineer.
Fact is, none of the high quality men I and my female friends have been in serious relationships with and married would have anything less than a smart, capable woman. Key words there are high quality.
And, please, allow me to absolve you of your disillusion. Attractive and intelligent women are in high supply…but low quality men need not apply.
Lastly. When I want advice about what men want, I ask men. Not women.
“Absolve you from your disillusion”? — You mean “disabuse you from your delusion”, darling.
Using big words … incorrectly … doesn’t demonstrate intelligence. It demonstrates intelligent-wanna-be.
So, let me disabuse you from YOUR delusion. Attractive women (with or without intelligence apparently) are in high demand. And both high quality AND low quality men want them.
However, the more attractive she is, the more negative qualities a man (high quality or not) will tolerate in her.
You must be drop-dead gorgeous.
lmoa!!!!!! Hive five!
Well said. Agree with you 100%
Duane, who are you agreeing with?
“You just have to understand that men don’t “value” intelligence. ”
karmic equation, that statement says far more about you than it does about men, as do your immature insults on this thread. You can take the boys intimidated by women, I’ll stick with men.
Before you try to claim I’m just jealous at their marital status, yes married. Um…But you’re not…right?
Actually “Twinkle”, he did… “Way to throw women with less ambition, less career success, less forwardness under the bus! “. And I actually come from a family of teachers and nurses who are quite intelligent, driven, and wear their hearts on their sleeves. So I appreciate your reply but it’s way off from what has been discussed this far.
The important part of Nick’s post wasn’t the “less…” parts but the “throwing under the bus part”. He was defending the women, while you were putting them down.
Either you have reading comprehension issues or you’re failing to recognize your own biases, despite having grown up in a family of teachers and nurses.
Annie, to add to K.E.’s points, Nick was speaking of women with “less ambition” and less job success than the successful career women, not “ambitionless” women; there’s a difference. Many of these women are not dumb or vacuous or “ambitionless”, they simply have different priorities and goals than climbing up the career ladder.
Nice insults karmic equation. That feminine softness is just pouring out of you.
Nick made several implications that were biased and nasty towards any career driven woman. No matter what profession you are in, a woman must still be a “woman” and show compassion to others. Period. And I have no problem meeting or retaining men bc I am aware of this and it shows. The only woman I don’t respect is the one who doesn’t have anything to show for herself as a human being….puts no true effort into the lives of those who surround her. But that goes for men too.
So what, Annie?
He’s not trying to attract other men (I presume) — you are.
Just because a guy’s language riles you, doesn’t mean that you should stop being a nice person. You can still dress him down without dropping to his level of perceived nastiness. Yes, I agree his tone wasn’t nice.
But you and I won’t be dating him, so he’s his own worse enemy.
Being nice is not about being nice to other people when they are nice to you. Being nice means nothing if your niceness goes out the door when you get riled. It means that you not a nice person. Why? Because bfs and husbands will inevitably rile us. And when they do, and your stop using nice words to convey your anger and instead resort to name calling or denigration, they tune you out. Do you want to be heard? Or do you want to be right?
I’m not saying don’t ever be angry. I’m saying if you choose your words carefully to convey your anger, he’s more likely to listen…and continue to like and respect you after the fight. And if you’re the kind to have a nasty side when angered. Walk away from the fight and have it when you’ve composed yourself. A man will respect the woman with this kind of self-control more than the virago who rages at him.
WOW! That is pretty harsh! I have met a lot of women, and when my son was in school with some of the most powerful women out there today’s kids, I met them and worked on project with them.
What I discovered was that many of the women who were powerful had only a HS diploma! They were talented, gifted in their fields… one even opened the first flavored Vodka line of Vodkas!
I learned more by being in this group of women, than I ever learned in business! The sad part was that being a single parent did not afford me the opportunity to really learn how to approach or talk to men…. and all of these women, regardless of education, and we had it all…. HS to double doctorates… at the end of the day it was about being a woman….
Its a tough road, especially when you have to be the breadwinner… you are the one making investments, buying cars, opening businesses, and coping with raising a family alone… there is nothing soft, sweet or feminine necessarily in all of that….
Its just not easy being a woman…. and men are basically simple creatures who do not process things like we do.
Yes, KE, I agree completely. And there are men and women who refuse to open themselves up to rational thinking no matter the tone of the individual presenting new ideas.
Agreed, Annie.
We should dump those people if we are dating them. Avoid debating them if they’re our friends. The friendship would be strained otherwise.
I’m confused. I didn’t get the sense that “strong, successful” woman look down upon those not so successful. To me, the question was a simple one: “Why are men intimidated by ambitious and successful women?” It has nothing to do with comparing one woman to another. It’s a matter of self-analysis and evaluation. I’m an incredibly successful attorney and I have had many, many men, before they even had a conversation with me, straight up tell me they didn’t want to date a lawyer. I’ve had guys tell me before even meeting me they don’t want to date me because I’m “rich.” Hmmmm… ok. It’s not about my success b/c these guys don’t know me. It’s about societal perceptions surrounding lawyers, and women lawyers to boot. Both men and women alike assume all lawyers make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, not so, not even close. I have come to know all too well over the past 7 years, that dating with a “high status” job title is not so simple. Guys brush me off before they even meet me b/c they are so freaked out. I had been dating a guy once for about a month… He came over to my house to pick me up for our next date. He immediately told me he thought I was out of his league b/c I have Carrera marble flooring in my house. Really? Whatever dude. I have no doubt some of the qualities that have helped my bank account grow are not so attractive when it comes to the dating world. I get that. But it’s not like I sit around thinking I’m better than my secretaries. I will tell you though, they don’t have to go through the bullshit of being dumped because they’re “so wealthy” and men certainly aren’t intimidated by their job title alone. THAT was the point of these women’s questions… why are we being discriminated against for our achievements?!?!?! And no one is more or less deserving of love based on money or success. The real question is… if my secretary is happily married, why can’t I be?
Just my 2 cents.
It’s not about any of that stuff… I am not attracted to men-like, women. I am not gay. I want a feminine woman… Not a man. You either accept this or not… And when you don’t, stop complaining.
Exactly. Only true non – insecure men unfortunately can handle strong, self confident and successful women , carreer driven.
Hard to find but sure there are. Ye ye and they want the so called more “soft” , “feminine” women only to cheat on them down the road as well. Tlking from experience. So many married men in relationships with “soft” wives and girlfriends, have been flirting me throughout the years.
So puh..leaaaseeee
I take an equal relationship any day with a man that respects me , understands my needs and satisfy me and i am more than willing to offer the same or more.
No criticism, simply if the man is not a good match to you he simply is not a good match.
Its all a matter of chemistry. Im in no circumstances desperate or needy looking and i dont think that any woman should look like that in order to attract their other half. These things are not scheduled or programmed. If you have chemistry and that click with someone, then it will show and a relationship can be pursued
Megan,
I’m not sure if you can pull this off, but you might want to give this a try…Can you be “just a woman” ? — No man outside of work knows what I do for a living. To them I could just as easily be a waitress as I could be a CEO (although they would more likely believe I was a waitress than a CEO, lol) — I’m a mid-level manager in web operations…so a “brainiac” as a guy friend termed it once I told him what I did. I just creeped into 6 figures at my last merit review. And only my bf knows how much I make. No other friend knows. Not even my family.
To me, it’s not “role playing” to be “just a woman” — outside of work I only want to be “just a woman” and I want my date to be “just a guy”. Dates are much more fun and less pressure-filled that way, imo.
Typo…
“…that way.” Not “that will”
———-
Chrysanthi,
I think it’s a stretch to call a man “insecure” because he can’t/won’t date a “strong, self confident successful” woman. This is a male “preference” because “strong, self-confident, successful” women are often opinionated, bitchy, and self-controlling. (I’m not saying you are this, btw) — So why even start a relationship they know will end up full of friction? This is just dating “effectively” for men.
Certainly many men ARE insecure, but their insecurity is exhibited by “trying too hard”, “bragging too much”, “talking too much about themselves”, etc. But not wanting to date an SSS woman is often not a sign of insecurity. We can label it that to make us feel better, but that is not reality, unfortunately.
‘Robert’ says: “It’s not about any of that stuff… I am not attracted to men-like, women. I am not gay. I want a feminine woman… Not a man. You either accept this or not… And when you don’t, stop complaining.” That about sums it up. He wants women to be passive, drooling, and barefoot, or he doesn’t feel like a man. “Men-like women?” Guy needs an anatomy lesson.
‘Megan’ – Women must detach themselves from having to have a man, any man, at any cost to themselves. This must be the most difficult thing in the world to accomplish. You know, I’m sure, that when a woman, any woman, comes into her own, regardless of whether she works at all, or whatever her job, men can “smell” this. (It’s worse now with the internet). Suddenly, they appear like flies. A woman who has not been having dates must guard herself against leaping into the arms of any of these guys. They’re the ones who will suck the energy right out of a woman. No matter how nice their behavior – no matter what tokens of their esteem – they are choosing those women for their strength, and make no mistake about it. Women, too, are at “fault,” because women will accept this.
You have been lucky that the men you are best without announce it so clearly. Lucky. There is no longer a driving need to populate the planet. But there is enormous prejudice against both men and women who are not “with” someone – anyone, and even as I write this, I know I’m as guilty as the next person for having this perception because it is constantly reinforced.
Women are still uncomfortable, by and large, dining alone. It’s the 21st century, but things remain more like the 1950s and it is only getting worse. Men dining alone are, perhaps, pitied. Women dining alone are the object of scorn.
I don’t see anything getting better for men or women, and only the constant reinforcement that they must want each other or there is something wrong with them. Yet, when are most men happy? When they are in the company of other men. When are most women happy? When they give up too much of themselves to be tied to men who are happiest in the company of other men, or, who are subservient.
Men and women need to give each other a break and leave each other alone until this mess sorts itself out. What about the need for physical affection? Well, at what cost.
It might be perception…. the older men I know grew up learning mothers are in kitchens, dad’s at work.. and men rule! I think the younger generations are more open to women being skilled, but I get caught in between. Men want to be needed…. and appreciated for their skills, and I guess here we come and their egos get bruised.
Men, and people in general think Lawyers/Attorneys make a lot of money… some do, most of get by on just a nice living, but nothing to brag about. If you ask most attorneys today, many are making career switches to something else…. Doctors maybe the same. Maybe men feel they can not financially keep up…. or it dimishishes their role in our lives.
I wish I had answers…. and maybe we need to learn to switch hats better.
Hunter … It’s pretty hard for women who have been raising kids to earn what their ex husband makes. Most are trying to do something about it … But lack of job experience and parental responsibilities make it very tough.
There are a while lot if men who would be happy to have the kids 50% of the time, but women can’t give up all that child support. Oh no, too many women must have custody because of control issues, and money.
If you gave up a part of the child support, and had the dad take 50% of the time with the kids, that frees up a lot of time for self improvement, college classes, dating, etc…
Few things irk me more than how women fight for custody, then whine about the burden of single parenting.
Jo,
I was told, women happen to be very smart, intelligent and know the solution, they just like to talk about the drama in their lives….
Megan, I doubt it was the Carrera marble floors, your job title, or the size of your bank account that caused you to be dumped. You are absolutely correct that the qualities that make a highly successful attorney, especially a trial lawyer, are not so attractive in the dating world. If I am going to court I want to hire the most arrogant and argumentative attorney I can find, someone who thinks they are always right, they can’t possibly wrong to represent me. These are not qualities I want in a girlfriend or a wife though.
After dating you for a month or so I suspect the dude determined that you would be absolutely impossible to live with and decided to let you down gently by telling you that you were “out of his league” rather than saying what he was probably thinking “You are a BITCH and I can’t stand you!”
It’s Carrara marble, guys, not Carrera.
I agree with the person who says that initial dating should be between a man and a woman. Being ostentatious about financial success and career accomplishments has the potential to turn off certain people. This is not necessarily due to insecurities or even to gender constructions. It may have to do with personal values, with not wanting someone too materialistic or power-driven.
I would be even more concerned about attracting those who want to be with me because of my financial success. Gold diggers come in both sexes.
Who are you without your status and riches? That’s the question. Dating can be an opportunity to explore that.
almudena, please forgive us for not using “spellcheck”….
Toys and careers just like boys….and these career/strong women aren’t dependent on some guy for their financial survival! Lots of sunny, sweet ladies who are really struggling financially – in a lot of cases stuck with raising his kids after he runs off with his secretary. They are broke and miserable, far more miserable than any career woman. I know many women in this situation and they are in real financial peril.
“they are broke and miserable”….yes they are…and won’t do a thing about it……..
You have a point there. It’s true, some highly successful career women do have an arrogant attitude. That’s the ting with feminism. It’s a double edged sword. But I don’t think it’s just women, it’s men, too. Plenty of high powered men that have an air of self-entitlement.
But there are others who have it all and still struggle. Your hand doesn’t have the same fingers, so don’t be so quick to judge.
cora pearl, the few highly successful career women that I know, are not lacking in the intimacy department, so I hear…despite their possible, arrogance…
You sir, are my hero! LoL
You’re the perfect example of what not to look for in any relationship, your bitterness is so obvious. Reality check independent women didn’t get that without struggling for their achievements we didn’t get it handed to us, so what is so wrong with being able to successfully run your life without compromising yourself.
Fact indepentdent women are attracted to alpha males, this include confident level headed men that know themselves who are not emasculated by a woman’s hard work, they are the men who know how to listen and teach without needed permission to take the lead in intelligent decisions. Independent women are in any position who have struggled for her achievements, having resentment is a definite turn off in any relationship.
That’s not true don’t be jealous. I feel like In life why would you want less for yourself?
The point is this: Be who you are. If that’s bright, successful, and confident, yes, there are some insecure men who aren’t going to like that much, because they want someone they can look down on. You can pretend to be “subordinate”, but do you intend to keep up that act all the rest of your life, in order to keep this man in it? The mask will slip sooner or later, and then what? I don’t tone down, turn down, tune down, or dumb down myself for anyone, nor should I have to. I am who I am, and if anyone doesn’t like that, there’s billions more people where they came from. Next person, please?
Don’t expect to be everyone’s cup of tea.
hazel, Bravo…!…Bravo…!!
In Washington, where testosterone is found in the air in greater parts per billion than oxygen, the word “bitch” is an acronym. It stands for, “Boys, I’m Taking Charge Here.” And that’s what happens when women try to “take charge” in a romantic relationship in the same way that they take charge in the workplace. They can’t seem to find any worthwhile men who will stick around long enough to appreciate their many stellar qualities… because they are behaving in a man’s eyes like one of the other dudes he has to spend all day doing battle with. How tiresome. Like it or not, a different approach is called for in the romantic arena. (“Men are different than women” — repeat as necessary.)
Ladies, it’s not a matter of giving anything up, or altering who you are in any fundamental way. It’s a matter of accepting that “He wants to be the boy” on dates, and letting him, for the sake of nurturing that spark that’s so critical to success in romantic relationships. We female go-getters work alongside men all day long — taking tons of initiative, being aggressive and competitive, putting out fires and ruling our little corner of the world with unswerving confidence and aplomb. But when the 5 o’clock whistle blows, it’s time to switch roles… if you want to be in a happy, peaceful, compatible, long-term relationship with a masculine energy man. Find your own feminine energy reserve and embrace it. Learn to compartmentalize! Try it. What do you have to lose? Remember that famous quote about “the definition of insanity… ”
If you want to go on “being the man” regardless, hey — more power to ya. Date guys who are dreamers and have no drive, who like to nest and pick out wallpaper (or sit home and drink all day and watch sports on T.V. instead of working for a living). They will savor be taken care of while you go out and slay those dragons to put meat on the table. If you truly are a masculine energy woman, things should work out great. If not… at some point you will burn out, feel drained and start resenting your man for not slaying a few damn dragons himself once in a while. Yes, you can kill your own spiders in the bathroom at 3 a.m., you’ve done it forever, but doggone it, wouldn’t it be nice if someone ELSE took over sometimes? Unfortunately, that’s the point at which conflict starts… it’s not what either of you signed up for, so you both wind up miserable.
I found your remarks so telling, Michelle: “When I am not interested in them, they work for the relationship day and night. When I am committed to them and act nice and devoted, they start to look elsewhere.”
I know Evan is not a fan of “The Rules,” but… what you are describing is the classic push-pull male/female dynamic that is so aptly described in that series of books. When you make the man do most of the work to capture you, he pulls out all the stops. He feels challenged and alive. You’ve given him a job to do! And by golly, he’s gonna do it. He’s going to win over the fair maiden. When we pursue men or present ourselves on dates as their equivalents, and advertise our many accomplishments instead of looking, smelling and sounding pretty and graciously accepting what THEY have to offer US, the opposite happens. We take their jobs away from them. They don’t feel that spark, they feel like they’re out with one of the boys, so they go off in search of someone who will make them feel strong and noble and good about what they have to offer a woman.
If you want to really understand why your successful career strategies don’t carry over into the romantic realm, study Patricia Allen’s “Getting to ‘I Do.'” I think you’ll recognize yourself (painfully so) from the very first chapter. There’s a lot of food for thought in her approach, which is all about the masculine vs. feminine energies Evan so aptly described, presented with ways to identify which you truly are, deep down, and adjust your dating strategies accordingly.
I was in your shoes. Completely and totally. Over-the-top bright, successful, financially set, my career life an embarrassment of riches. All those things are still true of me… but it wasn’t until I completely overhauled my dating approach that I found the love of my life and true happiness in a wonderful marriage. I still have to work at it every day; I find myself trying to be the leader, telling my husband what to do and how to do it. I have to bite my tongue and let him at least have a turn sometimes. 😉 I don’t view it as being submissive or giving away pieces of myself; instead, I am giving him a wonderful gift: letting him be HIS truest self with me. (And not nagging him. That, too, is a gift!)
Been Thru Wars….I am so glad I read your blog comment. I went and purchased Patricia Allens book Getting To I Do. I can’t thank you enough for mentioning the book! Did it open my eyes!!!!!!!!!!!! Not mention my brain like a pinata! Amazing. The big light bulb went on and then the tears came…realizing the damage I had done to a very special relationship I wish so much I could fix especially with what I know and realize now about MYSELF. I know there will be
arguments against this and the Rules…but for me it makes sense. Again, thank you so very much….it was just what I needed to go on knowing that next time I will be much more equipped to be a great woman for myself and and fantastic woman (hopefully wife) for a great man!
🙂 Thank you!
what about if your man turned out to be useless and careless in whatever he does? what about when he brings the shopping half full with what you asked him to bring for dinner? what if your man is very clumsy and doesn’t pay attention to what he does around the house? what if your man is very forgetful and can’t remember appointments and schedules as you already agreed?
do you still let him take the lead and make a complete mess of your relationship and marriage?
Those who are as you described may not realize what they are doing, or it’s possible that they may not care at all who they effect. It’s up to you to find out. Are they simply a struggling person, or just have no regard because they are self absorbed? If you say nothing then the person will assume you are okay with it (or perhaps not assume anything at all). Bring your concerns to that person’s attention (a reality check) and if you don’t see a change then you need to figure out what it is you value and also how you value yourself, then find the person you want. Some people put up with adult children and some don’t. At the same time don’t assume that you are being mistreated because no one may have expected any better from them. Some people are more “with it” than others. Bottom line is that if you desire a person who has a clue then that is who you need to seek.
In other words, you either stay with them or leave them single for a woman who is prepared to put up with less and there are plenty of women like that. They’re called wives.
I agree with Luis. There were a lot of interesting points in the article, however, to sum it up I heard…you should play down yourselves to make a man feel like a man. Simply be seen and not heard so as to not step on an already fragile ego. Women have egos as well and quite frankly….if my opinions emasulates a man…then he wasn’t much of a man in my opinion anyway…at least not a mature one. If it’s true that what a man wants is a yes sir type of woman…which is true for some but not alll men…how stifling of an existence it must be for a woman.
The truth of the matter is this: some men and women do not take constructive criticism very well no matter how tactful you are about what you say. if I am with someone who I claim to really care about I cannot sit by idly and watch them make poor decisions and make mistakes without at least lending my thoughts about the situation. I’d rather not see them fail if I can help it. it is not about being right all the time or winning an argument all the time.
Frankly, if you have any real perception about the person you are with you should know if their intentions towards you are good and 8f they are…then you shouldn’t take it in a negative way when someone’s trying to help you who cares about you. As someone who views relationships as a team effort I feel that it is my duty to address those things and if at the end of the day he decides that he will still want to something different that’s completely up to him but there’s no reason why he should feel like me giving him some constructive criticism somehow hinders him as a man and emasculates him. None of us have it all figured out no one is perfect man nor woman. Personal growth is so important throughout life you don’t stop that once you turn 21. in my eyes men are not children I would not treat my husband the way I treat my son or my daughter these days and I feel like some men want a mother and not a wife and not a companion. You can still be a warm and compassionate and an opinionated woman towards your significant other and not bend to any of that but you have to be dealing with a mature man to do so.
With that being said no one man or woman wants to be constantly criticized about anything so you do have to be mindful of that. there is a big difference in someone constantly criticizing you and you just not being able to take constructive criticism well maybe Especially coming from a woman.
Christy,
Constructive criticism is feedback that is SOUGHT.
If you provide UNSOLICITED feedback, however well-intentioned, it is NOT constructive criticism, it’s just plain old criticism.
If your man doesn’t ask for feedback, don’t give it.
“If your man doesn’t ask for feedback, don’t give it.”
And if his decision affects her as well? Is she then allowed to give feedback? Even if he doesn’t ask her to?
You should dump this man. Because you don’t appreciate the effort he IS making. He may not do it right, but he’s trying. And a man who tries is worth more than a man who doesn’t.
If he really displeases you that much, you need to dump him. He deserves to be with someone who finds his absentminded-ness cute and his clutziness adorable.
You either accept him and let him be who he is, or you move on with the knowledge that he will meet someone who accepts him. Being forgetful and clumsy does not mean he is making “a complete mess of your relationship and marriage.” If it bothers you so much, it’s best to move on.
“Useless”. Wow. It’s possible that he turned out to be “useless” because of the depression that resulted from the realization that he was stuck in a relationship with an entitled, cold-hearted harpy.
Jess,
I have two questions:
1. Why on earth would you date or stay with someone like that?
2. Won’t someone that useless and careless make a complete mess of your relationship/marriage even if you’re in charge?
I’m not so sure I can believe anything said on here… She could be projecting, lying…. or not… Who knows.. We have yet to here his side. I think I’ll be waiting awhile.
Honestly, I rather be alone that living a fake life.
Honestly, You would. Is not being fake, is being equals like every women think they need to be. The problem isn’t women being equal… the problem is now a lot of girls thinks no men matches her needs cuz she thinks she is the top smart best girl of everyone. Love isn’t about who is the best catch, is who will stay with you forever. So yeah, if you think that way you’ll be alone forever
I wonder if that guy is also asked to switch off traits I don’t like when he gets home so I feel “like a woman”.
@Sandra, yes men do have to self-moderate their own words and actions. Men get plenty of feedback about things they do or say, that we don’t like.
Also, it’s not about being fake, it’s about learning to change who you are. Imagine this. suppose you are happy and just being your authentic self, but then all of your friends and family don’t want anything to do with you. So you ask one of them to tell you why, and she says that they don’t like the way you act, that they don’t feel good being around you. So would you change or would you insist that they must learn to accept the authentic you?
The idea here is not to fake change, but to actually change. Imagine a man who comes home and does nothing but scowl and gruffly complain. If he had trouble finding a woman, would you suggest that he change, or would you tell him to just stay the same, and expect women to accept him as he is? The problem is that you want men to change who they are, but at the same time, accept you as you are.
The only woman posting here that actually ‘gets it’ is JennLee. Women have changed – good for them. No one ever asked men if they wanted women to change or if they wanted to change themselves. Women undertook to unilaterally change their ‘roles’ in society and never asked men what they thought about it. Don’t expect men to change just because you changed and now you’re unhappy that men won’t change to meet your expectations. One thing that never changed about women – their self-centeredness. Try working on that then get back to us.
Wow! You just took the words out of my mouth! What I gathered from this article was this–Woman, it is not your job to use your brain and have opinions or thoughts of your own. No one cares if you followed your dreams and did what you wanted. Please leave the thinking and decision making to the man and learn how to smile and always say yes. Do men even realize hep that makes us feel? It’s still so sad that men still require women to be shy, docile, and agreeable women with no opportunity to be here own self without being called tactless. Men have to understand that if I start to change who I am just to get you to like me then you won’t be marrying the real me! therefore I agree, I’d rather be alone than live a fake life to please someone else. I’m a person too!!
You seem to be very distressed over this. I would say that you have it wrong. You did not read the article correctly. Everyone has opinions. I’ve noticed something about that however. Watch this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH_gWgDPz7E
Joe Rogan, from Fear Factor is on the left and another guy is on the right. Now here’s th thing, the guy on the right is opinionated also. he has opinions on stuff. He never acknowledges any point that Joe makes. I’ve met a lot of people like that. All ages, all genders, all education levels, etc… They simply don’t know how to digest what you are saying, realize that your point is valid, acknowledge that, and then move forward.
I think most people don’t realize what they are like when they discuss things. But I will say this. I don’t think the majority of men have a problem with a woman being smart, or having opinions, or being independent to a point. but think about this, it is OK for a man to be kind and nurturing, but do you like it if he acts weak? Maybe acts effeminate, is that OK? Well, men really don’t like “strong,” because we don’t want to talk with you like we talk with other men. Maybe you will never understand. Maybe you need to be a man to understand it.
alexis,
…”I’d rather be alone than live a fake life to please someone else.”…..does that make you a manhater?…
It is OK to be picky. If a guy is so average that he can’t get outside his own social conditioning. Is it even worth dating him? These things go both ways, sometimes the girl (or guy) is tactless and could learn some social skills, sometimes what is being asked for is unreasonable. Just use your brain and decide for yourself what you are comfortable with.
And yet if you ask for a mans help with something, you are “bothering” him. Men just want mothers they can have sex with at the end of the day.
They don’t like strong and independent women yet they don’t want needy and clingy either. THIS is the reason why many relationships don’t work! Make your minds up boys because us girls can’t win either way?!?!?!
Yes, and men can’t win either. He’s either a selfish narcissist or a nice guy with no balls. I’m pretty sick of this black/white readings of entire genders, on both sides. The world is grey. Stop complaining otherwise.
I agree 100% with you Alexis.
“Shut up and do tricks for me” it reminded me of how you’d treat a dog.
It’s a leap between wanting to be authentic and to be a “manhater”.
I agree with smithy above. Warm food and constant sex. Unfortunately men are socialized not to understand their own dimensions as humans, so how can we expect for them to seek others in a complete way and not only to fulfill their primitive needs?
If that’s what you believe most men are, then why would you want a relationship with any of these neanderthals, Sandra?
They must bring something to table for you to want relationships with them. What are those somethings?
Maybe instead of focusing on what’s wrong with men, focus on what’s good about them and start looking for those qualities in the men you would like to date.
I think the same way Amanda.
Interesting article and pretty much the conclusion I have come to myself, I have accepted that to be happy I would need to become ok with being alone or settle for a beta male that will never challenge my authority. Men normally friendzone me as I have a masculine personality and that sucks for dating but is good for business…can’t have your cake and eat it I guess?
I’m with you Sandra and Joanna
Pretty clear that in today’s day and age.. with all the ‘progress’ that’s been made, men and women should simply live apart from one another. We’re not short on population. Women dont need men. Men don’t need women. What’s left? We all go our own way.
Joanna,
Actually you do have another alternative. JennLee and a couple of other wiser women have given it to you, if you can take the hint.
Speaking as a dominant, driven and rather successful man, I do NOT envy you your career. I don’t begrudge you your multiple degrees. I don’t even care how masculine you feel you need to act in the workplace; I can and have worked quite well with women like you in that setting: I’m sure as hell aggressive in business, and I wouldn’t expect you to do otherwise-at the office. I might enjoy sparring with you over a business deal, or having an intellectual debate with you- and unless and until you can learn to leave that “I can act as masculine as any man!” attitude at work when you leave work, that is exactly where my interest in you or any woman like you ends. No successful, intelligent dominant man wants or needs someone who’s effectively a man with female plumbing in his personal life, most especially in his love life. To be quite blunt, I can have a pissing contest, or a pecker measuring contest, with any driven, masculine business competitor who acts like a man (whether their anatomical plumbing is male or female is completely beside the point) any day of the week. Therefore while it’s fun there, I neither need or want that at home: when the day is done, I want to come home to a soft, comforting female presence-in short, to a real, feminine woman who doesn’t try to act like a man (at least, not outside of work). If you don’t like that or simply can’t turn off that “bitch mode” away from the office, you can either (1) find a completely emasculated beta wuss, a/k/a “Sensitive New Age Man”, who actually likes being dominated by a woman, or (2) marry another female, or (3) enjoy life with all the money you’ve made… and your twenty cats.
I know that’s not what you want to hear, I know it clashes with recent feminist ideology, I know it’s not politically correct or popular with women like you…but it’s the truth, and if you (or the rest of the alpha females here) don’t like it, well, as Rhett Butler said to a similarly hard-headed woman, “Frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn!”
Well, at least you’ve prepared yourself for the inevitable.
@been through wars, thank you so much.
You are an eye opener..thank you.. Being g my “opinionated self”, please write a book! You are good.. Very good with words.. And you use it well..
Oh my….. a woman that gets it!!! Hold on..Are you a guy posing as a woman?? lol Everything you mentioned is spot on! Only if other women thought like you and would drop that “strong-independent” title, the dating world would be much easier… Youre husband is a lucky man… if you are really a woman 😉
So here’s the thing, it is indeed true about feminine and male energies. The difference is, the males with the feminine energy are truly the ones who lose out, often in life in general and especially with love. Why? Because most of what you say is true, except that masculine energy females still ultimately end up leaving their male partners by and large and become dissatisfied. The data suggests this strongly. In fact, women initiate 70-90% of divorces despite cheating being shown to be 50/50, and domestic violence done by women more then men on the whole (I have the data for that).
I know this personally, I put it to test. In fact recent data suggest even women with feminist leanings eventually leave their mates due to this innate female dissatisfaction with their mates. So not only are most of the jobs that men excelled at being destroyed and automated, but women now on the whole when apples to apples comparisons are made actually make more than men. In fact, it is projected by 2023 that females while graduate college 2:1 to their male counterparts. They get better grades, and have an entire culture telling them work, careerism, and ambition leads to personal happiness and satisfaction (we know through interviewing people near death that isn’t the case).
Not only do we still expect men to do the pursuing, with women being the gatekeepers and choosers, but those “feminine” energy men are much less likely to do that in general. They are shy, less secure, often low income, despite being wonderful human beings. Hypergamy is a tough mistress, so is our biology. The truth is Alpha females, def. want alpha males, and it turns out, the other females kind of want those guys to if the data is any indication.
Men make up the majority of the chronically homeless and the suicides. This too plays a role in male odds for happiness. Women get lighter sentencing in divorce court, and the legal system in general for equivalent crimes. We simply view men as the more disposable sex. Men are easily pleased and many,m if able are willing to support a low income female. As long as she is sweet, nurturing, supportive, caring, and attractive. The opposite is rarely true. Women simply will not support men, long term in this way, it’s just not in their DNA, even the “masculine” energy females. The data bares it out.
A lesbian feminist actually lived as a man for 18 months, and concluded it was women who were the privileged sex, and felt that in life’s arguably most consequential arena: relationships, women had all the power, and now even more so. She felt deep sympathy for men and the male experience, and most women who come to experience or appreciate the male side of things feel blessed they weren’t born as men. She wrote a book about it, and did a tv segment on it in 2006. Her name is Norah Vincent. Men are at a distinct disadvantage, even more so as automation destroys the jobs that are left, in an environment where only 8% of the working population makes 6 figures, these are people who live in a bubble. 51% of the working population makes less than 30k.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip7kP_dd6LU&t=3s
It sounds like you’re feeling a little insecure about women starting to push against gender inequities. (Also, for your comment about women being the more common perpetrators of domestic violence, I HIGHLY doubt that those numbers are accounting for unreported events, which are more common among women.) Personally, I’d be happy to support a man who makes less money than me if we were both happy and satisfied with our jobs. Income is not a measure of intelligence, and everyone has different skills. The real question though is, would a man be okay with this? Personally, I think the strongest man is one whose ego is not damaged by someone else’s successes, and that relationships can be a partnership with neither person “taking control”. We all deserve someone who appreciates, loves, but most of all respects us for who we are.
“Unreported events” or not, women who engage in CDV are far more likely to use a deadly weapon in the assault. See the FBI statistics if you doubt this. In addition, those assaults are more likely to end in homicide. I would also dispute your allegations that women are less likely to report. It’s abused MEN who are far more likely to remain silent! Why.? Because if they do report it, they are(a) usually disbelieved by law enforcement (or anyone else),(b) have their allegations totally dismissed by most advocates for women (after all, they KNOW that only men commit CDV, right?) (c) if they do get to court, whether in a divorce or a criminal proceeding, well, you know how women who are survivors of rape and testify at trial against the perpetrator are shamed, blamed, degraded, humiliated, and otherwise made to feel that they, not the assailant, are the one on trial? “Didn’t you provoke it?”, “Aren’t you lying?” Didn’t you invite it? “Wasn’t it really YOUR fault?” says the defense lawyer. You know how much you like that, or how “fair and just” you think that is? I have quite a bit of empathy for those women, because I have some idea what that feels like. That is EXACTLY what happens in court to a male survivor of CDV perpetrated by a woman! I know, because I have been there, done that, and got the t-shirt, courtesy of a wife who tried to quite literally murder me on several occasions. Here’s a sample of what I got: “She can’t really hurt you, she’s just a little woman, and besides, I didn’t see her with the knife, and you have no stab wounds.” said the cop. (Of course, if I had tried to defend myself, he’d have taken me straight to jail, no questions asked!) “What kind of a man are you, afraid of this little woman?”, screamed her defense lawyer, right in my face, spit flying, like a drill sergeant chewing out a recruit . “If you were a real man, you could have defended yourself!” (Sure, and gone to jail, see above). “Tell us the truth, you provoked her, didn’t you?” ( How, by simply existing ?). “Do you seriously expect this court to believe, that you needed to be afraid of her?” (Hell yes, I’m afraid of anyone who picks up a deadly weapon and says “I’m going to kill you, you@@@@!!”, especially when that person has repeatedly threatened to do just that. Of course, he KNEW all that from the psychiatric report on his homicidal client, but whatever). “Just doing my job, nothing personal” he said later, outside the courtroom. Sure. At least I got a divorce. She should have gone to prison for multiple counts of attempted murder; she did meet the legal standard for being sane enough to stand trial ( a man guilty of the same exact conduct in the same mental state sure would have). However, her defense lawyer convinced the prosecutor she was “incompetent”. How convenient. True, I’d have been dragged over the coals all over again by her lawyer in a criminal trial, but you can insult, shame, blame, degrade, dismiss and humiliate a man only so far, before he simply doesn’t care anymore. All I learned from the whole experience is: the cops don’t give a damn, the courts don’t give a damn, the lawyers don’t give a damn, and if a man is abused, and a woman is the abuser, most women don’t give a damn. Are you surprised, that knowing all that, many, if not most, men who are survivors of this kind of CDV don’t report it? Why don’t they? Pretty much the same reason many women who are raped don’t report that! Who wants to be blamed, shamed, disbelieved, dismissed, accused of lying, degraded, and humiliated to get justice for an act of violence you didn’t cause, didn’t provoke, couldn’t avoid, couldn’t stop, and wasn’t your fault?
Believe me when I tell you that I have all the sympathy in the world for abused women. I have not been silent; I have continued to push for more much needed reforms on their behalf. That said, no one deserves to be abused, regardless of their gender, OR THAT OF THE ABUSER! America is doing better with justice for abused woman. We’re not doing as well for abused men, and until they too are accorded the same respect, compassion, understanding and justice we expect for women who are survivors of CDV, I’m not going to shut up. I’m going to continue speaking out on this because I am a survivor, I refuse to be a victim, and I will be heard!
Mutual respect? If you want it, try giving it!
I think in this context women are reaping a little of what they have been sowing. You really hit the nail on the head when you said it is pretty difficult to be a man these days when there are a whole generation of women asking “why do we need men”. It’s a shame. This isn’t exactly the age of the man, it’s the age of the woman if anything. Excuse me if I sound a little resentful, I admittidly am. Over the last 50 years or so our roles have gotten reversed and our society is suffering for it, and so are these women. We’ve got a whole bunch of men who are afraid to be real men, and women who are afraid to be real women. It could be said that they are getting exactly what they wanted; independance, careers, etc and these are the by-products of that movement. Much of what women have acheived are what WE are supposed to be out there acheiving! We are the ones who are supposed to be out there slaying the dragons for you ladies! For every woman making $50K +,there is a man who is not, and trying to support his family. Do women really want Mr Mom? Deep down they don’t. Not really. It’s not natural. But being a strong leader type is not exactly politically correct or honored in todays culture is it? Either is being in charge, yet that is what we as men are wired for, that is why we would rather have a woman who agrees with our opinions rather than have a bunch of her own. In the end, woman want and need to be loved unconditionally, and men want and need to be respected unconditionally. If we could get back to that, we’d all be a lot happier in our relationships.
Do we want weak men? No. But do we want to be weak ourselves? NO!!! When I was a little girl, I certainly fantasized about slaying my fair share of dragons.
What we want is for men like you to acknowledge the fact that women are also human beings with goals and aspirations. We want careers, and we deserve careers just as much as you do. I like strong, successful men, as do most other women I know. The problem therefore lies with people like you, who for some reason can’t accept that women have brains just as complex as yours. You may not like the fact that we also have opinions, but not liking it doesn’t make it any less true.
Hi Brianna
You need to look at what you are saying. You want to be smart and driven and have a career, which is fine. You want a man who is smart and driven and has a career. This is fine too.
The problem is you want both of these things. Putting two smart successful driven people together is like putting two alpha dogs in a cage. They are not going to get along.
If one of the people in a relationship is a rock, the other has to be softer, or the relationship wont work.
Women always write off men who are gentle and nurturing. Always. I don’t want to be the kind of man you want. I am smart (I am a chemical engineer), but I don’t want to be an aggressive guy. I find being aggressive draining.
I like smart, driven aggressive women, but I have no intention of being that way myself. I prefer reading in the park to climbing the corporate ladder.
Good luck finding someone to fight against for the rest of your life.
Also, you said good luck finding someone to fight with. Are you so naive that you think a non opinionated woman won’t have something to argue about? That’s the problem with so many men, they think because a woman seems agreeable that she won’t ever stand up for herself but she will. Some of the most quiet women I know turned out to be the biggest headaches for the men they were dating. When I say I’m opinionated I mean that I have opinions on a variety of topics. Having the ability to think deeply about subject matters does not equate to arguments. Most successful women are also very confident which mean
Yeah personality matches are important. Agreed.If both people want to be in charge it is just kind of draining. I honestly prefer it when whoever I am dating has their own projects and leaves me alone to mine. It also seems to be generational. I’m between Millenials and X and honestly get on better with Millenials. Gen X guys are too interested in being in charge which is tedious. I like guys who are mellow. I don’t need a manager.
Can’t both partners be respected AND loved?
Alexis, he was referring to the push/ pull dynamic in relationships…
I have noticed something though. Women’s definition of intelligence is not the true definition. Her definition is something along the lines of a social buff — hosting major parties…
Well guess what? That’s not the definition of intelligence. You want a social butterfly, not an engineer. You want a yes man (Beta male) instead of a deep, philosophical character… I’m the latter… and it’s really frustrating when women redefine words to meet their own agenda.
I acknowledge that fact. Completely. And women like you should acknowledge that men, in general, are not attracted to women like you. Doesn’t mean we don’t support you or respect you. It’s just that we don’t want a relationship with you.
Thank you. Was beginning to think i walked into a time warp.
Much of what men fear in string women is derived from their overactive imaginations and assumptions. Yes I am opinionated but I gave never ridiculed or tried to control any man..EVER. And yes, I am career oriented but I’d gladly allow my career to take a back seat so that I can be nurturing and caring to my family. Most women are very nurturing and supportive, even the career driven ones. I feel like most men are acting on assumptions. Do they even give us smart and successful women a chance to show our feminine side? Trust me, it’s there. You guys can’t keep making all the brash assumptions before you truly get to know who we are on the inside. Most of us hard working women are very sweet and caring on the inside just waiting for the right man to see that in us. Don’t be so quick to judge every book by its cover. Jivamukt
Alexis, you are right. It’s not because we have a career that we are not loving and caring. In any case, what are we supposed to do when single? Live from welfare and wait until we find a man who wants to “save” us? We could wait a long time…
A very sexist message is given here to women: you can have education and a career but you will pay for it in the domain of love.
I was happy that a woman won the prestigious Fields Medal for mathematics but even happier to read in an interview that she is married, and not just to some houseman but to a guy who is a professor himself. Apparently he is not intimidated by her brain.
In modern relationships both people can develop different aspects of their personality: their professional ambitions and their need for affection and intimacy. Both men and women want to accomplish this.
To the men complaining that women are not loving and caring my message is: you don’t see that side of us because you are not bringing it out in us. I never compete with men but I often notice that they start doing it the moment I tell them what I do for a living (I am not bragging about it but I happen to have a high profile job so by simply mentioning it they already know that I am successful careerwise). Am I supposed to lie about what job I am doing? You ask me what I am doing and I am giving you an honest answer and after that I want to talk about other things.
About us ignoring nice men. Why would we do that? The problem is that most men who think they are nice men are not nice. They are often very frustrated because they see themselves as less successful as the more alpha males. So they expect a woman to build up their fragile ego which pushes a woman more in the role of a mother than the one of a partner.
Nothing wrong with being nice but it has to be genuine and there has to be inner strenght that goes together with it.
No woman who is confident can resist a nice confident man.
When will women actually listen for a change? Why do women not understand that men simply find career driven women boring, uninteresting and more than anything… unattractive?? Intimidated by? Hardly.
I’d ask these women to try and get over themselves but why bother? It would be more constructive to just ask them to forget about us men and marry yourselves.
“In any case, what are we supposed to do when single? Live from welfare and wait until we find a man who wants to “save” us?”
right???
too smart, I think men get frustrated from lack of intimacy…
cora pearl, men do make that mistake of reminding their partner, that he is the ambitious one…
Men fear you? Talk about arrogance. Why can’t women understand that the traits that make you successful career-wise make men go limp, else-wise? It’s pretty simple really.
I support strong career driven women and wish them all the best in their pursuits. But date/marry? No thanks. Why women get all bent out of shape and bitter about this, I don’t understand.
Right. And I’ve seen men such as yourself that go on to marry women with little earning potential, be it waitress, hair dresser, masseuse….and then go on to become domineering in the relationship. High-powered men that don’t fully respect their non-career oriented spouse and place themselves above her. Okay, we get that she’s a hair dresser and you’re a lawyer, but no need to remind her that you’re the ambitious one. I bet you wouldn’t say the same to the career woman, right?
ClassicalLiberal, if she is sexy and shows it very few men go limp…
Personally, the biggest turn off for me is a man whose ego is too fragile to comprehend a woman being good at what she does and competent on her own. I find it incredibly attractive when a man realizes how special it is when a woman is capable of doing things on her own, but would rather do it TOGETHER.
Men have, as they often do, done a cost benefit analysis of the situation and are checking out. The data doesn’t support your assertion i’m afraid. Women initiate 70-90% of divorces, and often do the majority of break ups despite cheating and domestic violence being fairly 50/50 (with women edging mend out in DV).
They have more options, more power, are the pursued, etc, and now they make the money too, while still being in a culture that somehow has the stones to say they are the oppressed sex :). Sociological data shows women, of all stripes, not just traditional types, but feminist leaning house husband positive go getter females eventually become dissatisfied and leave their mates. Women want their cake and eat it too. They still believe “they can have it all” you can’t. There are only so many hours in the day, and the economics of the world continue to get harsher.
The evidence strongly points to what men know instinctively, career driven females make for terrible mates on aggregate (there are always exceptions). Sorry but being obsessed with your job, and constant careerism and endless goal seeking doesn’t lead to fulfillment, contentment, and certainly doesn’t make for a happy balanced relationship which takes time, work and energy.
gg32,
“Sociological data shows women, of all stripes, not just traditional types, but feminist leaning house husband positive go getter females eventually become dissatisfied and leave their mates.”
Please cite the studies that show this. Until then this is just your opinion.
It’s true. I’ve written about this recently. Men’s employment status directly correlates to higher divorce rate.
So you buy all the drinks and meals on dates, do you?
Are women supposed to go on dates and pay for the bills? Honestly I can never do that, not because I don’t have the money but I feel like a man when I begin to do certain things. I am most likely going to buy my man thoughtful gifts but not pay the bills on dates or bring out my cash when he’s around and I know he’s more than happy to provide for me. I can literally feel the masculine energy gushing out of him whenever he’s doing these things for me. It doesn’t mean that I am not independent cos I do a lot of things on my own… I never ask for assistance.
Well speaking as a woman who used to be so career driven, independent and strong, in fact my bf still says that about me , I have been able to find a balance and let the man do what he’s supposed to do. I think women of our time don’t give men the chance to pamper us like they ought to so they just give up. I think a man that loves you is willing to do just anything for u as long as you let him. I won’t lie my life is a lot more fun and I am much more relaxed having learnt to be soft and sweet. I’ll advice every woman to learn that cos we all need someone.
I don’t know Miss Sunshine. Men will say that that’s fair if both people’s income is comparable. But I’ve tried it and it’s weird. The men I dated–not alpha males any of them–would practically tear that check out of my hand. They may have been uncertain about a lot of things but paying, this is one thing men I meet insist on doing. And if I do manage to pay later, this usually is still a surprise and usually means a man isn’t sexually interested in me.
I don’t make the rules. I actually liked paying sometimes because it meant we got to do what I wanted to do. It meant I had the choice of activity. But it was terrible for chemistry-making in the first three dates. Terrible! Some men who comment here say otherwise, but I would see that gleam and little thrill a man gets from paying and for me smiling and saying thank you. And my gratitude was genuine because it is a nice, caring gesture. This person you don’t even know is being really kind to you because he likes you and thinks you’re attractive. It gives me a warm feeling of gratitude and makes me feel appreciated. I don’t need to let him pay but it made them feel so masterful and proud and happy. I actually asked my mom about it and she said, “S, let a man have his pride.” So I do.
I probably still could use more lessons in being soft and sweet. I think I know what that means but I honestly just want to be direct and less sweet sometimes so men don’t think I’m something I’m not. Now I could actually become more sweet in relationships . . . but men I date usually appreciate a bit more feistiness. Or maybe I like being feisty. LOL!
It’s about a lot more than just money and independence I think that we are in a time where men and women should elevate them selves to a point where we can work together to achieve things. Back in the day …when women were not really the ones who were holding big jobs and men were the true financial keepers of the home…it made sense that women wete solely in charge of homely duties and cooking and cleaning but we’re not in that time anymore.
…and bc we are not in this time anymore yet we habe mem who still think this way __ what this says to me is the man is being irrational and selfish.
Who would want to see their wife or significant other suffering, struggling to get through with some house chores or cooking or cleaning and you just sit there relaxing when you both just came home from 8 to 10 hour job??
This is not the good ole days…some men simply need to elevate their thinking pass selfishness and start to learn what it is to be a team player and a leader in a relationship.
Being a REAL leader means being able to get down in the trenches with everyone else to achieve goals ..not simply being a dictator. I know..it’s so much easier to do the latter.
Lol and what this says to me is that the above is typical female thinking nowadays; blaming men for everything while yourself accepting none of that blame. That seems quite selfish to me, Christy.
Suffering???? Please we are in the age of the internet. Clean and watch Netflix ……..how terrible
Sorry but, most of those hard working men had to hand over those checks to the wife, who really ran the show and had the purse strings, she just expected her work mule to go out there and earn, and he felt that was what he could do best. The women have always had, and continue to have immense informal power, but now they have most of the formal economic and cultural power too, so it’s leading to men simply giving up.
I understand what you are saying Paul. Please realize not every woman wanted the women’s movement, I’m sure there are a lot out there who are dismayed by it, like me. It was forced on this generation of women. I think life is worse today for women than it was when roles were more traditional, but I say that with some hesitation because honestly I did not live in those times. However I did have a very abusive father that well, destroyed my mother, and a grandmother that put up with a lot of abuse from my grandfather as well. Here I am, I chose the path of wife and mother and no career. I’m just not that tough of a person to make it in the business or career worlds I do not think. It is not so bad for me, my husband is a fairly successful nice man, but I am under his thumb and sometimes it really upsets me when I run into how powerless I really am. Life is such a crap shoot. I have a friend who never married, has no kids but is extremely well off and lives in a skyscraper in Manhattan with river view. She has a lap dog. Sometimes I envy her because no one really controls her, yet I see she sometimes lacks real intimacy in her life. Who is to say which life is really better? I don’t really know.
..your friend does not date?….hhmmhh..
I actually read about one of the members of the very rich Rockefeller family saying essentially, “do you know why we supported the women’s lib movement?” His answer? Because now they could tax the other half of the population, and get the kids into the system and indoctrinated sooner. A single job can’t support a family now, that’s the big cosmic joke, but it is sold as freedom, because now we are ALL working ourselves to death. In fact, America works more hours than nearly any other major industrialized country in the world.
We give women the illusion of freedom by keeping them slave to a job, that still, often isn’t enough to support a family, that requires two incomes typically, the women here who make 6 figures live in rarefied territory and don’t represent most people who actually struggle there whole lives (neither do the men who do). 51% of the working population makes less than 30k. Despite all this women still are attracted to and want the man who is a go getter and can provide, not because she *needs* his money, she just wants to know he can. Yet this is becoming an increasingly impossible expectation on the male half of the species, on top of a gigantic list of endlessly expanding unrealistic expectations that women have.
When your husband finally cheats on you because let’s face it, men with a ‘little weak woman’ at home have absolutely no respect for them for what they do – like raising children, make sure everybodies lives are running smoothly, running endless errands, cleaning etc and they have almost outward disdain for such pathetic creatures after a while it’s almost guaranteed they will cheat – then you will be glad of the womens movement who will protect you from homelessness and poverty (to a degree). He will still be better off with a liveable wage while you scramble to catch up after spending a lifetime giving your life so someone else could forward theirs while still having a family and a well run home. You might wake up one day and see that you have one chance on this earth and that living in a tent is infinitely better than giving all your power to somebody who has no respect for you. You couldn’t pay me to go back to that environment – my self respect is back and I’m keeping it. Good luck but I urge you to weigh up whether you think working everyday is worth the soul destruction you are living. I can tell which life is better – I’ve lived both and a powerless marriage is not the better one. Go to school get a career , it is never too late. You must be unhappy to be married and reading here. Hmmmm??
Is that what you think was happening before the last 50 years? Men were loving women unconditionally? Because the necessity for continuous religious revelation, societal reforms, and common knowledge in general shows that when men were preferred for almost all authority they GROSSLY abused it AT LARGE. There would be no desire for women’s liberation if not for wide spread female oppression. You don’t want to be under the rule of an assertive woman because it’s like being under a man … and that feels uncomfortable, demeaning, and oppressive to you. Well guess what, that’s what it feels like to us!!!! NO adult desires to submit to another adult … another flawed adult. Even as you guys present your case against “high powered non-dependent” women, you fail to make anything of the meaker woman’s plight attractive; only implying that “at least that they have a man.” The fact that so many men don’t even want to entertain the idea of balanced equality is enough to dishearten any woman. We aren’t asking to be superior, but you don’t even want to entertain women being equal as adults. You simply just desire power. You enjoy putting all women in one box as if gender percentage isn’t flexible — meaning, there are women who have more masculinity and men who have more femininity than others. There are men who like to cook and women who have abundant knowledge. But none of you are encouraging these women. Ask yourselves if the advice you give to women on this forum is what you’d tell your young daughter just starting school, or your mother with an empty nest and a lost sense of self as she sees her children go about their lives and her husband’s flourishing pride for his self accomplishment out in the world. Too many men equate females with 100% feminine energy, and that’s just not the case. I think more women are ok with balanced men; men who have feminine and masculine traits. The ideal is balanced with both. And that’s who then these women are trying to be themselves, balanced. Because the world today requires it and always has. Men can not be trusted to not abuse power, an no day is promised to any one. So a woman had better have the sense to navigate this world alone as well as with a partner. But the partner should adjust. Men have not learned why their power has been usurped, so it continues.
This used to bug me too, as if women are somehow better at being spoken down to or not having ambitions or always being in a support role for someones elses career. I have pride too. I have desires too. I also want to make my mark on the world. My pride and self respect are knocked when treated like an acessory rather than fully paid up human with thoughts and feelings and desires. It used to hurt when all I had to say when someone said what do you do? I said I”m a mum….. My husband NEVER EVER said “I’m a dad and a husband”… Those words would have stuck in his throat. AS soon as I got a job I felt better, now I’m on my third degree and have lost the husband because he couldn’t stand me being anything other than his unpaid slave, I finally feel like ME. I’m doing something in my own right, achieving and I’m doing it without a wife at home to take care of all my kids and clean my place, pay my bills, iron my clothes – men can’t do all of that. they go to work and that’s it. Women have to end up being the husband and wife and I’d rather have it this way then go back to being someones sidekick. I have my own life to live and I”d love someone able to live and be my companion but I won’t do that by giving up my own life for them. I want to achieve in my own right – we all do. Women aren’t better at being submissive – they’ve had to swallow their pride and self respect to be there and now we don’t.
Count me against the men who ADORE strong, independent, intellligent women. But also count me as someone who finds many of them can’t get out of their professional shells when dating. From my own experience a reasonable number of professional women have a tough time letting their hair down and when with them seem to feel as if I were attending a 24 hour Martha Stewart festival. Now, the professional women who are genuine, authentic, intelligent, DOWN TO EARTH, affectionate, caring, nurturing, supportive and fun to be with…that’s an irresistible combination in my view! Heck, ANY woman with those qualities is worth keeping!
I’m every bit as successful as Michelle and so am very comfortable around money and success. But in the final analysis the size of the pocketbook, the position in the boardroom, the model of the car does absolutely nothing to make a woman appealing. Is she fun? Does she let her hair down? Is she open to actually getting her jeans dirty during a vigorous, picturesque hike? Does she relish it when I play with her hair, or moan it’s no longer perfect? Does she set aside some time to actually listen to me, or is she answering her email, texts and cell phone calls constantly? Is she affectionate, or is she always in professional form even when away from the office? Is she secure enough in herself to date men who may not fit her “ideal” as far as their own professional stature, weight, height, etc., is concerned, or does she limit her choices to men with very narrow external preferences? Is she open to more than the missionary position and mind blowing oral sex and great fun in bed, or mechanical and routine?
Will she at least pretend she loves giving oral sex and moan every once in awhile, or is she real quiet and making it obvious it’s a chore?
Can she handle it when I am being just a guy, or judgmental on every small detail? Is she incessantly reminding me about my flaws, or actually gets a kick out of them? Does she realize sex is a great way to get intimate with a man, even through we know intimacy is a great way for a man to have sex with a woman, but will indulge me nevertheless since sex is on our minds 23.99 hours of the day? Is she on a constant search for clothes and material improvement, or will she actually attend an event with me she may not like?
I empathize with these two women. Yes, there are men who are very insecure around successful women, but there are hordes of quality guys who are very secure around successful women and I suspect Catherine and Michelle have been too narrow in their search for the right guy. Most of the “right guys” have a flaw or two or more (maybe an extra 10/15 pounds, maybe they are short, maybe they work in jeans instead of a suit and tie) and it is because of these “flaws” they are often written off, for some successful, professional women, in my experience, deceive themselves, as Ev rightfully hit the nail on, that because those attributes are traits making a man appealing, it makes them appealing as well. It doesn’t. Men want to spend time with women who still have a little girl in them, occasional mothering (we love our mothers and still need a little TLC from time to time and that’s not being insecure, it’s just being a guy), and who admire them for the men they are regardless of the professional status of either party in the relationship. And like Ev said, and maybe most importantly, we don’t want to be judged, that’s the quickest ticket for a lady to be out the door, whether we are successful ourselves or not. The ladies who are successful with men are usually those who are the least bit judgmental (I realize my own hypocrisy when making this statement for we are all making judgmental statements whenh making a comment on this excellent forum).
Speaking from personal experience, I suggest both of these ladies should enroll with Evan. It’s helped me immensely.
Dude, if sex is on your mind “23.99” hours of the day, you are much less effective than you should be.
Will = white knight
Once again my question to you is: do you make a woman feel like letting her hair down? Having a career definitely does not mean that a woman is less spontaneous or enjoys intimacy less or has impossible standards for a man because these things have nothing to do with the kind of career you have.
YOU are responsible for how you feel. It’s not up to someone else to make you feel like letting your hair down or anything else.
I’ll say it a different way than John… If the man you’re dating doesn’t INSPIRE you to let your hair down on your own, then you’re with the wrong man. Dump him.
Don’t expect a man to actively make you feel anything. It should be a passive thing. Him being him makes you want to be you. Because he will always be him, but when courtship ends, he may not put in the same effort to win you. And if him NOT making the effort leaves you cold, you’re going to be cold 2-3 years later when the honeymoon phase is over.
Be with a guy you like when he does what he likes to do for himself, not for what he does to make you like him.
Case in point. I’m starting to date a new guy. He likes to hold hands. It’s been a long time since I’ve been with someone who likes holding hands. So I would have been perfectly ok with us not holding hands ever. But I LOVE it when we hold hands. He doesn’t hold my hand to please me, he does it to please himself. And it makes both of us happy.
I like this post. Well said Karmic. Sounds like you have found a great guy!
So, I know you wouldn’t want to be perceived as sexist in your brave new world where women can do anything a man can do and your smart, strong, independent, yada yada…what, exactly, are YOU going to do to win over a man and then keep him interested?
Are you addressing me, John? I have an answer 🙂 But if you were addressing TooSmart, I won’t. lol
Thanks, Jenn.
He’s pretty awesome so far 🙂
great comment tom!
Crazy thing is .. you realize your hypocrisy and then just move along like it’s acceptable. Furthermore, you made a long list of what this woman needs to be for you (or to be what any man would want) regardless if its her natural state, but repeatedly talk about what YOU don’t want to change or alter. you don’t want to be judged for your inadequacies while you point out hers. Her bank account doesn’t sway you byt she shouldn’t care what you do/make? So who handling the REAL life issues of money? She should “indulge” your sexual needs and how you want things, even though you CLEARLY know women require a different approach. yuo can be 10/15 pounds over weight, short, underacheiver that needs a mom, doesn’t clean and doesn’t want to grow (ie., doesn’t want to know your flaws or how they need to be corrected) … what do you have to even offer? What’s so great about YOU that this accomplished woman needs to lower her standards because you don’t want to raise yours? You pointed out ALL her flaws as you say you don’t want to be told of yours. It’s absolutely hilarious!
Evan,
Well said and congrats on being able to use yourself as an example. I have def put myself into the “I’m such a catch, what’s wrong with all the men who are intimidated by my superior intelligence” catagory. Recently I’ve begun leaving my professional self behind and thinking about being more feminine and nurturing and not having to be such a smarty pants…and it seems to be working.
Keep up the honest work Evan.
Kitty
Evan, I think that you offer some really good insights and really hit the nail on the head with this post. I could see a lot of myself in Michelle and have a tendency to really enjoy talking business with men. I have been told by a girl friend that this sometimes puts men off, especially when I can contribute intelligently to a conversation we are having about their job/career. After reading your post, I could see how my ‘intelligent, direct and successful’ demeanor can come across as something different to guys. I think this happened with one guy I dated last year where eventually our conversations about work became a turn off to him.
Anyway, while keeping myself from being a shrinking violet, I have been learning to let my guy be the man or let him feel like he is in charge. I am certainly not acting submissive, but I’ve been learning how to let him take the reins and steer. I don’t always have to be the one driving. So far it’s working a lot better for me.
Well, I often let my man to be in charge or at least taking the bins out, they were left there for nearly a week. How do you explain this?
And the other one I left in charge of booking tickets and hotel away for the weekend, he let the time pass and the prices went up and we ended up ging anywhere?
And the most recent disaster was when I left my ex in charge of deciding on the wedding cards, he forgot to order them and started panicking our wedding was approaching and no one was still not invited. So, guess what he did, he cancelled the wedding. Yes he did without agreeing with me. And that was the 3rd time he cancelled our wedding for very stupid reasons just because I left him in charge and take the lead.
I am proud to be a successful business woman, but I hate it when I have to end up doing most of the things at home. So I don’t see how letting a man in charge could work. Thanks
Seriously Jess, do you actually think he forgot the wedding cards? Men have short memories when they don’t want to do something like marrying someone.Yea they forget not once but thrice.He probably has cold feet about having his life controlled
Bins? C’mon sounds like a guy who’s out of job and ur paying all the bills.Of course men have short memories when they have a controlling partner, and when they don’t actually want to do something like marrying a controlling woman.They don’t forget the cards once they forget (oh yeah) three times..
Evan,
Your response to Michelle and Catherine may be empirically true to some extent — that is, that strong, successful women are not as attractive to some men because these women display traits that are turn offs to guys and lack traits that some guys are looking for. However, your proposed solution — that women should tone down undesirable traits and work on developing more desirable ones — is what I take issue with. Instead, why not propose that men should work on being okay with a woman who is his equal in terms of power, opinions, intelligence, and status, and, indeed, that we all should work towards bringing more gender equality to our personal relationships? This approach has been taken over the last several decades with success in education, employment, and other public arenas, and we continue to work on making more progress in these areas. Why should women have to change to accommodate outmoded male preferences born out of stereotypical, traditional gender roles?
And of course I would make the same suggestion regarding your advice to “nice guys” who feel as though they have trouble dating. Instead of men like Jason working on beefing up their masculine traits, perhaps the women who reject them should work on accepting men who are conciliatory and don’t feel the need to dominate them.
The personal is political; as long as sex-role stereotyping plays a role in personal life, it will continue to limit options in public life.
Naomi
Naomi,
You ask, “Why should women have to change to accommodate outmoded male preferences?”. I can respond with, “Why should men have to change to accommodate modern women’s behavior?”. It’s easier to change your behavior than it is to change someone else’s preferences, so women are more likely to get results with changing their behavior than they are to persuade men to be attracted to someone they’re not attracted to.
That said, I would NOT advocating changing who you are, unless who you are is not a person you are happy with. I myself am a strong, successful, independent women who does not need a man, and I have had trouble dating in the past. I just celebrated my one year dating anniversary with a fine man, but that year has not been an easy ride. I have had to make changes to how I express myself for the sake of my relationship with him.
I would still describe myself as a strong, successful, independent woman who does not strictly need a man, and he likes my strength, my success, and my independence- to a point. What my man needs from me, and what I think every man needs from an independent woman, is to be needed, and to feel like a man. I love that I don’t have to ‘be a man’ around him. I can check most of my masculine energy at the door, and let him be the stronger of us. I don’t feel that this is sacrificing any of who I am, just exploring new sides of my personality. It was uncomfortable at first, but I am a happier woman for it, and I don’t think I could have had a successful relationship with my man without it.
Well said, Naomi.
Every other creature on this planet has gender roles and fills then as required, without question. Why are human females above all other creatures and nature?
Because some “human females” are not feminine waifus by nature. Some “human males” are not manly men by nature. Prenatal testosterone, you know. Why should anybody pretend to fit into some stereotype if they just don’t fit?
Every other creature does not create its society, have free will, and opposable thumbs. We are very different from “every other creature”. But the best answer to your question is simple …. gender roles don’t work. It’s uneven and unfair. Giving absolute power to one flawed gender to “handle” the other. It’s the same reason why we think slavery is wrong dear!
Naomi,
I agree with you that it’s unfortunate that some men are turned off by strong and successful women. But your advice, and the comparison to public life it is drawn from, are both misguided.
You suggest that we handle the issue of men being turned off by successful women by… convincing men to be turned on by successful women. Sure, but if that were feasible we likely wouldn’t be having this discussion. And how exactly should men go about “working on” changing what they want in a partner?
The personal in this case is not political; it is—well, personal. That is why the analogy to reforms in the public arena is off: the public arena, being public, must weigh everyone’s preferences equally. It is not surprising, moreover, that such reforms are achieved through legislation. I am not sure that the equivalent means of approaching men’s sexual preferences would be all that desirable… In other words, standards in public life are driven by considerations (fairness, equality, justice) that are absent from sexual preferences. The reason why sexual preferences remain personal (and why they should) is because they don’t affect the collectivity in the way that say, education opportunities do.
One thing that I do think (and hope) will happen is that the very reforms you mention in education and employment (and one might add politics), will slowly drive a change in sexual norms and men’s preferences.
Until then, women who find that their success drives men away are left with two choices: tone down those traits, as Evan suggests, or keep looking for someone who will appreciate them. The latter may be healthier. And men attracted by strong, successful women exist (I’m one of them).
krzysztof
I’ve received similar advice letters like this and always have one standard response.
“Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?”
Any time I hear a female client say that she thinks that she “intimidates” men due to her education, career, demeanor or looks I can immediately pick out at least 5 other, more tangible, reasons for why she has a hard time connecting with men.
Hear this: Men are NOT intimidated by a strong, independent, successful and/or outspoken. They are, however, completely turned off by a ball buster. Many women failt to see that line between being outgoing and aggressive, confident and arrogant, outspoken and opinionated.
” However, your proposed solution — that women should tone down undesirable traits and work on developing more desirable ones — is what I take issue with.”
Stop right there. See what you’re doing? You’re debating. You’re arguing. In your first sentence you agree with what Evan said, then you turn around and pick apart his argument and turn it into “but why should I compromise who I am?” Nobody is suggesting you lower your standards. What we’re suggesting is that you should try to increase your options. Do you want to be right? Okay, then don’t complain when every guy who comes within a foot of you quickly tires of your 24/7 dominant personality. The key to any good relationship is a willingness to be vulnerable and to submit. It’s the key to flirting. Somebody has to lead or else you’ll both be stepping on each other’s toes throughout the whole song. As an alpha female myself, I can tell you that even my female to female relationships require that oen of us be willing to bend and acquiece at times. We do that because we care about each other and prefer to avoid conflict. I’ll bet you do that with your female friends, no? So then why is it compromising if you do it with a man?
There’s a reason why two magnets, when positioned the same way directly at each other, repel and why, if you turn one of the magnets 180 degrees, they click.
Women with a distinctive male energy often confuse men. Sure, they can visually see she’s a female, but all of her non-verbal cues (posture, facial expressions, tone of voice) are distinctly male. That confuses the male brain and can trick the brain into treating you and “seeing” you as a male. The sam ecan be said for women when dealing with a “nice guy.” They’re “seeing” his female energy – the submissive, demure, vulnerable part of him. That’s why we’re not attracted to them usually.
At least that’s what I think.
Of course, as men are expected to do the pursuing still, and we know from all the recent data that women across the spectrum eventually get turned off by “feminine” men. It’s truly the feminine energy men who lose out. They have far less “options”.
The primary reason, Naomi, that I advise individuals to tone down their individual traits, is because that’s a realistic solution. Change starts on a personal level, yet most people are always screaming for everyone else to change. That’s not how it works. If a man asks me for advice, I’m going to tell him what HE should do differently – not what WOMEN should do differently, and vice versa. Would the world be a better place if men and women truly embraced equality in all of its forms? Sure. But I’m not going to make that happen. Let’s work on taking care of what we can do as individuals instead of screaming for tens of millions of people to change years of societally ingrained behavior.
Another realistic solution is to remain faithful to yourself and stop diving against the current, enjoy a happy and plenty life by your own instead of trying to fit in obsolete social patterns that tell us what roles should we adopt. If being alone (as if this was somehow negative) is the only solution, I think is still worth it.
Being happy alone is one thing, but being happy while lonely is altogether another. Human beings are highly social creatures, and it is definitely unrealistic to suggest that people (as a society and as a species) should just “enjoy and happy and plenty life by [sic] your own” when the pressure to build satisfying relationships is literally in our DNA.
Personally, I am perfectly content with simply having friends and family, travelling, and learning (I’m studying Spanish, programming, chemistry, and physics). I don’t want to date or have sex so I do, well, whatever I want. When a woman or man approaches me, and I find out that either is looking for more than friendship I politely turn them down and let them know I would still like to be friends. Then again I’m only twenty so who knows if that will even last.
Men are NOT attracted to strong and independent women.This is not a social pattern. You are free to adopt whatever stance that suits you. Men will simply avoid you. No one cares what you do really.
Evan, honest question here. What if you simply just do not trust men to take the lead? What if you are more capable? In my own personal experience, my entire life I’ve never been able to trust a man to lead a situation. Now this isn’t me trying to control everything, or be competitive. I’m completely self made without the help (honestly, mostly hindering from )males. I find they seem to need to compete with me. I’ve learned how to put forth a feminine energy but i find when i do, men are disrespectful know-it-alls who talk down to you. This is frustrating to me because i do not want to date a man who needs to be right all the time or talk down to me about subjects I’m already educated about. I understand men need to feel needed but what if you really don’t need them because you really can do it without them? I learned from a very young age to not depend on men. This is a trait i use for self survival and protection. The idea of giving up control to a man is terrifying to me. Because every example ive ever had, had either malicious intent or, was just inept. I want an equal, not somebody who needs me to feign being lame so they feel attracted. Why are men so threatened by this and why do men only reserve “strength” as a male characteristic? I mean, obviously I’m doing something wrong as I am the single one trolling the internet for advice. But i just can’t pretend to be somebody I’m not to make men feel secure. I don’t show up acting like a dude. I’m actually introverted and don’t call a lot of attention to myself. But somehow men become competitive with me at every social gathering or date. Maybe a bit of advice to men could be if they want a partner, treat her like a potential mate, instead of a potential threat to their intellect. Or worse yet, like a child. Obviously there are tons of good, A+ men out there. I’m just not sure i want to give up my inner strength to appease one.
I don’t take questions in the comments section – but I’m making an exception here.
You’ve (sort of) answered your own question and still can’t seem to see into your blind spot – probably because it’s too painful.
“What if you simply just do not trust men to take the lead? What if you are more capable? In my own personal experience, my entire life I’ve never been able to trust a man to lead a situation.”
There you go, Nat. You may say you’re not controlling, but you just admitted that you do not trust men to do anything. That would indicate that yes, despite your very best intentions, you ARE controlling. You don’t trust anyone to do what you think you can do better. That’s your prerogative. It’s also your weakness.
“I understand men need to feel needed but what if you really don’t need them because you really can do it without them?”
You get to lead the life you’re already leading. One in which you are 100% self-reliant because all the men you’ve ever met are incompetent to lead or make decisions. That’s a self-fulfilling prophesy if there ever was one. I’m not judging you in the least. I’ll just point out on behalf of the millions of competent men you’ve never seem to encountered, none of us would want to be in a relationship with a woman who deemed us incompetent. And none of us would want to be in a relationship with someone who is so independent that she has largely no use – and no belief – in us.
“I want an equal, not somebody who needs me to feign being lame so they feel attracted… But i just can’t pretend to be somebody I’m not to make men feel secure”
Nobody told you to be with someone less than you. No one told you to feign being lame. No one told you to pretend to be somebody you’re not. Those are your interpretations based on your (very common) misunderstanding and misinterpretation of what I wrote.
Men want to be appreciated, accepted and admired. It doesn’t sound to me like you appreciate, accept or admire anyone – rather, that you look down on an entire gender as if they were one monolithic disappointment. As long as this is your attitude/belief/experience with men, you will continue down this path. Once you acknowledge that your self-reliance and independence is a defense mechanism that keeps men from connecting with you, and let your guard down, you will discover that men are kind, generous, chivalrous, loyal, and doting. It’s just hard to be that way with a woman who doesn’t allow it.
Thank you so much for taking the time to answer. I do appreciate it very much. I have to say you’re right in your assessment of my statement. And i agree with you. I do find it hard to acquiesce to men. (In dating terms) more so because I’m afraid. Letting a man lead my life in prior cases lead me into an abusive relationship (marriage) from which i taught myself very unhealthy coping to survive. One of which was to not believe a man has my best interest at heart (shield, wall etc etc). Then men I’ve dated after my ex husband walked all over me and used me and treated me like i was stupid. I’m confused with dating because when i am soft, the men I’ve dated take that as weakness. So, in the end i go back to being the Iron maiden because then at least I’m standing up for myself. I do not expect any man to put up with baggage but it’s hard to leave baggage at the door. I do actually adore men and appreciate their efforts. I try and show it that i like them, but i probably don’t realize i can’t hide that i don’t trust them lol. I probably scream ballbuster to them. This is obviously all my own personal issue. But sometimes it feels like you can’t win. Nice gets you walked on and bitch gets you alone, but no drama. My goal is to handle my problems so i can meet a great man. I know they exist. I know the men I’ve encountered are less than one percent of the men out there. I know married men and long time male friends that are great guys. I just have no idea how to find one for me lol. Once again thank you for responding, i appreciate it. You hit the nail on the head.
Thanks for owning it. Says a lot about you. Make sure you’re on my mailing list (see Free Advice at top of the page). Some good stuff coming up in the next few weeks…
I’d like to put many of your statements back to you. Women (clearly) are looking to be appreciated, accepted, and admired as well. I think moreover, it seems women want the same things a man wants. It’s what PEOPLE want. As you said, “none of us would want to be in a relationship with someone who is so independent that she has largely no use — and no belief — in us.” Women want to be trusted to take the lead sometimes as well, be respected for their minds and skills, and be encouraged to excellence. How can a woman relax and trust a man that is waiting for her to give HIM the lead role in HER life? How does he even deserve that? Men used to be so much more abusive to women and their rights, but women pushed for change, and look ,, a new world of choices for women. Certainly it’s not ridiculous or a lost cause to promote a new idea to men. “Women are partners. You are MORE of a man when you accept her strength then reject it for fear or being not needed. It’s your support of her strength that she is in need of.”
Evan, I read your blog every day but I must say that this has been my favourite post so far. One of the particular reasons why I like your posts is because coming from a male perspective, you’re refreshingly honest.
Every day I explain to women that much of the issues that we have going with men are our own projections. Yes there are men out there that do feel threatened by some of the qualities that these women mentioned, but these women are focusing on these qualities as if it’s all that encompasses them, and that their looks and these qualities make up for any perceived ‘negatives’. I always ask “What could you be doing differently?” It doesn’t remove what someone has done but it lets you have the responsibility of change because we’re the only people that we can control.
The issue of ‘needing’ men is a fundamental, hardwired requirement that is unlikely to change. Needing or wanting a man and even leaning on him a little doesn’t make you less of a woman, or less independent. It’s called life and relationships.
It takes the ability to look past the surface, resume type stuff and take a deeper look at ourselves to know what we’re really putting out there. I used to think I was unlucky in love with the same qualities that those women spoke about but on further reflection discovered that I was commitment-phobic, aloof, and I had sh*t taste in men!
Men and women have ideas about what they think are the perceived qualities and characteristics for being an optimum partner but we are often wide of the mark. We need to get back to basics and be real.
Thanks for a great read this morning!
I see the true problem here. Not that I’m smart at all but thru life, I have realized that women are being stronger in more masculine ways simply because men have not done their part and we have HAD to take over. We didn’t want to, honest to God. In my last relationship, the guy was at my house 90% of the time. Would he ever notice that the pool needed cleaned or even keep his bathroom clean? NO!! It caused great resentment because I had added pressure from this and the good stuff was too minut to overcome it. Result: better off without him.
Yes well said here. I have at least 3 light bulbs that need replacing in my flat together with some frames to put up. Did my man do that? NO. did I ask him for his help? YES, million times. what were his answers? I forgot, I don’t have time, you didn’t remind me, I can dot hem tomorrow, …. and the list is long.
I felt, I’ve been supervising my employees at work all the time and making sure they’re doing what they’re supposed to be doing.
Jess,
If my boyfriend belittled me like you do with yours, he would quickly become my ex-boyfriend. If he is so worthless, why are you choosing to stay with him?
jess, I ended up doing everything myself – I stopped asking, I stopped caring what he did. I cleaned the pool, I mowed, I painted, I took the car to be serviced, I fixed the toilet. He looked up one day and I was gone. If he wasn’t going to contribute to a well run household so we BOTH got down time and there was equity in all the drudge that living in a home actually takes. what did I even need him for? He was useless to talk to – he told me to tell my problems to someone else, so I did. He once stopped me mid story about something I had found fascinating in chemistry and wanted to share my wonder and told me to stop talking because he couldn’t understand me. However, I was expected to listen to him drone on for hours about his job and the ‘drama’ with his workmates. So when he is offering nothing in the form of emotional, physical or mental input why would we keep them around? Don’t do this with this man for decades like I did or you will be worn into the ground and resentful. Passive aggressive lazy men should be left quickly and finally. They don’t change. They are lazy and that’s the way they like it. I doubt he’s even giving good conversation or companionship. What do you need him for exactly? What is he contributing vs what he is taking? for granted I might add – does he thank you at all for cleaning his room?
How did she belittle him? She merely stated things that she needed help with and how the man she trusted to handle them carelessly left her hanging over and over. That’s just facts.
Jess, why don’t you replace your own damn light bulbs and put up your own damn frames? The reason your ‘man’ didn’t do those things for you is because that you make it so clear that all he is to your is your maintenance man. In every hetero-sexual relationship, women eventually come to see their ‘men’ as the maintenance man, the garbage man, the totally utilitarian robot. We get abuse without having to enter into a relationship with a shrew.
Men typically are mostly valued for their utility. Women often only want equality when it’s the deficit is on their end. Why can’t she do it indeed. Women get to have choice and be human beings, men are simply viewed as human doings. We measure happiness relative to the female, not the male or the couple.
So wait … this post is about women being more feminine and making the man feel needed. Now here, these women leaned on these men and ya’ll say “why can’t she do it herself?” So which is it? Do women do everything ourselves because we don’t need ya’ll or do you need to be needed?
Jess, Men don’t actually want to do the heavy housework and maintenance like the things you mentioned. They don’t actually want to protect the woman. They just want to make the decisions. You see, women get all the garbage work around the house, and then some, and men get the privileges of “leading” i.e making all of the decisions. If you tell a man to do something, he will refuse a woman out of pride to his precious ego and will label the woman as controlling or accuse her of abanding her “feminine energy.” So you end up saying it a second and third time because the issue is not resolved. They then call that “nagging”.
However, because men are the “leaders” they tell a woman to do something only once, and she better damn well do it otherwise she disrespected him. If she does not listen to him the first time, she is accused of not trusting him. It’s a nasty double standard. The Gotham Institue found that most divorces are filled by women and are caused because the husband refuses to submit to his wife even though they found that women submit to their husbands. So inequality and men refusing to share power in their marriage is the biggest cause of divorce.
There is a problem when men claim all of the desirable universal human traits as “masculine” and give the women the leftover subservient shit called “feminity.” If female subservience to male “leadership” in a marriage is so natural, then why did men used to have to break our legs, threaten us with poverty, and beat us in order to force us to comply?
These Alpha males also complain about how easy peasy and boring their sweet feminine wives are, and they cheat on their wives for years on end with the Alpha females they meet at work or in their social networks.
This goes way back to Roman times when men kept a submissive and domesticated wife at home but kept an educated mistress on the side. They even had training schools for these mistresses. They were taught politics, philosophy, and different trades in order to make them more entertaining to the men, while at the same time making it illegal for wives to have the same training. Historically, men used to seek emotional connection, mental stimulation and rewarding sex from Alpha females, whilst keeping their “soft” and economically dependent wives at home to do all of the housework and childrearing.
Bev – That was My ex husband exactly – he’d ask questions like “Do I need to mow the back yard too?” Uh, no. Let it grow 12″ tall – or how about 18″? Why is he even asking me? So I am the controlling one because he does a half ass or no job at all? Everything was like that….
Counselor once said “what would you do if he wasn’t there?” Well, you do it yourself whether it’s a man’s task or not. 🙂 Otherwise you wait around for them to contribute something – same goes financially.
Take care of yourself first whether it bugs him or not. It has nothing to do with being feminine or not – if your career rocks and his doesn’t it isn’t your problem to fix. I have met more men whose careers have tanked and they really hate it you are doing well. I totally avoid even discussing my job with dates.
Moxie: Your comment “Women with a distinctive male energy often confuse men. Sure, they can visually see she’s a female, but all of her non-verbal cues (posture, facial expressions, tone of voice) are distinctly male. That confuses the male brain and can trick the brain into treating you and “seeing” you as a male.” resonated with me. Something clicked. I get it.
After the last guy I dated told me “it” wasn’t there for him I wondered if I wasn’t “girlie” enough, if the fact that I like ‘guy’ movies, sometimes drink beer, act like one of the guys and got along well with his guy friends were turn offs in a sense even though I’m very girlie in a visual/physical way. This experience framed how I interpreted your comment. This is good. Sometimes I forget to “tone down” certain characteristics even though I know that I need to.
If I may offer up one alternative perspective from my personal experience…
It seems people are drawing a strong correlation here between women who are strongly critical of the men they date and those “Type A’s” who turn off men with their success and masculine energy. So, before anyone goes any further conflating the two issues, let’s separate them.
1) It’s an issue for a woman to constantly berate the man in her life and make him feel he’s a disappointment to her. This type of behavior is NOT limited to professionally successful, “masculine energy” type of women. I know plenty of girlish mothers, aunts & girlfriends of all tax brackets, who suffer from this issue. In fact, I suspect it’s more a problem with the female communication style in general than with relative degrees of gender-specific success.
2) It’s a different (but occasionally related) issue for a woman to expect her suitors to be captivated by her Curriculum Vitae and then explain away a failed date with: “He was just intimidated by me.”
To preface my story, I too, once fancied myself as a bit of a prize – cute and well-educated. I set high goals for myself and reached them. My professional life came surprisingly easy to me, and thus I generally walked around very impressed with myself.
So anyway, in my late twenties, I found myself seriously involved with a man who wanted to marry me. He was charismatic and funny, intense and intelligent. There was only one small problem, though: I couldn’t stop finding things wrong with him that I wanted to change. He was tactless. A mama’s boy. He had obnoxious friends. He was poor. He was vain. He was afraid of being misunderstood, so he talked incessantly. His constant anxiety had an effeminate energy to it, and so conversely, his “bawdy” tendencies (i.e. flirting with/ogling other women) seemed incongruous and compoundingly off-putting.
We spent the last months of our relationship in battle. I’m sure I was driving him nuts because – to his credit – he was trying to improve himself for me and consequently walking on eggshells all the time. And I was driving myself crazy because, instead of focusing on the poor guy’s positives, it was like I was forever meditating on his faults.
When it ended, I was a complete mess. I didn’t like the nagging shrew I’d become in the relationship. I’d totally lost sight of why we were together in the first place. And because I’m the self-reflective type, I took perhaps more than my share of the blame for the demise of our relationship. I concluded I’d been too “Type A”, and needed to tone it down for the next guy. For all the reasons people are talking about here, I decided I should have spent my time “loving and supporting” him, and “not challenging” his shortcomings. I’d felt that perhaps my personal accomplishments had only amplified his insecurities and vowed to keep them tucked away next time.
My point is that it turned out I was making the same error in thinking that I see running through this discussion thread. People are unnecessarily connecting the dots between a woman being proud of her success and being overbearing/critical. They’re conflating Issue #1 and Issue #2.
Here’s what I learned: My conclusions were wrong. After I broke up with the man in my story, I had about two other boyfriends before meeting the one I married. Since Story Man, I found I didn’t have to conceal my (*eyeroll*) “personal power” from the men I dated. Not one of them elicited from me the desire to nag or correct them. It wasn’t my high income or forwardness that led to problems. Today, my lovely husband earns a little less than me, but he wins about every other argument. He never felt threatened by my tax bracket or the property I owned. He tears down and rebuilds the deck, mends fences, assembles bikes for me, dominates us athletically, provides valuable input for all decisions we make as a family, but he still encourages my successes (because they’re OUR successes, really). He was right for me. He was easy. And just like Evan deserves an easy girlfriend, so do we all, no matter how gender-bendingly successful we may be.
Looking back, with Story Man, I don’t say to myself “I wish I’d toned it down and hadn’t nagged him for the sake of the relationship”. I just shouldn’t have nagged him PERIOD, and gotten out of the relationship as soon as I realized I couldn’t accept his flaws unconditionally. We could have saved months of heartache. With no disrespect to him, I’m glad I broke up with Story Man, because I believe he’s happily involved with someone else now, and it ultimately paved the way for me to meet the dreamboat love of my life.
It’s not that I disagree with the advice given in this discussion thread. If you are a forceful, accomplished woman who attributes her relationship failures to male insecurity, then please do sit up and take notice of the valuable advice dispensed here today.
If however, you are a successful woman, currently with a partner you often find yourself frequently fighting with and wishing were somehow different… if your relationship is characterized by a struggle to suppress your critical thinking faculties… well, yes perhaps you’re letting your Type A tendencies rule your perspective on the relationship and you could choose to try toning it down a bit. But consider also that some men are close, but quite right for you (and some genuinely do need to change 😉 ), and you could choose to simply move on. The solution isn’t always to suck it up and persevere 100% of the time. From my experience, having faith, an open mind, the courage to let go of a bird in hand, and a LOT of patience will lead you to a loving man whom you won’t want to change a thing about.
“My man provides valuable input for all decisions we make as a family, but he still encourages my successes (because theyre OUR successes, really).”
What your man is doing is fulfilling the “Wife” role in your relationship. He provides you with input, but it is you that ultimately makes the decision, finalizes the plan, has the last word.
If his decision matches the one you want to make, you say that he is leading, and that is how you delude yourself into thinking you are both leading. If his decision isn’t what you want to do, that is when it is your “turn” to lead. Either way, the result is the same. You are in charge. You are filling the role of “Head of the Household” and he is your adviser. Even if you occasionally hold your nose and do what he wants, you are still making the decision of when you will hold your nose. He never gets to decide, he just holds his nose as he has to.
The “Wife” of the family also puts their total effort into encouraging and supporting the “Head of the Household’s” endeavors (or as you put it “successes”, though you are supposed to support *before* success is achieved). Your man is performing the “Wife” role as your supporter and help meet. Funny how some women can’t see that being in the support role to a husband raises themselves because his success is also her success. Yet, a woman can instantly see that when she is Head of the Household, then her success is also his.
In marriage, there are two roles: Head of the Household and Help Meet (ie Wife). Just like in business there is: Boss and Employee. There can be only one boss. In your marriage, you are the boss. Some men like this arrangement. That kind of man is generally referred to as a “beta male”.
So, what you have done is taken the advice stated many times on this thread already. “If you are a woman who simply refuses to submit to a man, then find yourself a beta man who will submit to you.” The problem other women on this thread have had with this is that in general, a woman who refuses to submit finds those that do to be unappealing. I mean think about it, a woman whom equates submitting to the most horrible thing that they could ever do. Is it any wonder that when they see someone else submitting to them that they find that person distasteful? They end up resenting their beta men and destroying their marriage with a divorce.
In a marriage, one person must submit to the other. Just like in a career an employee must submit to the boss and the boss must submit to the government. Everyone submits to somebody: parents, teachers, school administrators, housing boards, bosses, managers, customers, their government in all its forms and levels. There is nothing wrong with submission, it is not a dirty word.
The problem women have is the nature of what they are. Women are attracted to men whom do not submit, as submission is a feminine trait and they want a masculine alpha man. Also, men are attracted to submissive women who want to support them with every fiber of their being, as those are feminine traits and they want a feminine woman. When a woman refuses to submit to a man, they go against their nature and are stuck trying to change the nature of men (impossible) or settling for a man with a feminine personality (unappealing).
The true answer to this dilemma is to do what Evan stated in the article. Do the best you can to change yourself into being a feminine woman. Submit to your man instead of dominating him. Or, just do what God (who created man and woman and marriage) said to do: “Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.” Ephesians 5:22.
You seem to forget to write what follows that. It says “husbandsubmit to your wife “. And then it says “cherish her, love her.”
MJ, I think it is far more likely that a man would cherish and love a woman who is following his lead as much as possible, and also providing him with the other things he needs, such as respect, nurturing, love, patience, loyalty, affection..
Watergirl, pointed out something many of us have seen for a awhile now. I have stated that usually when I hear a woman say that they have equality in their relationship, when I watch, what I almost always see is exactly what Watergirl described. The majority of the time, the woman is getting her way either because most decisions are either her getting her way, or they were in agreement. Only on rare occasions does he get his way and she doesn’t. He has to choose his battles. So here is the reality of the situation…most of those times she thinks they are in agreement, they are not. The man is just saving up his trump cards for things that he is really passionate about. He does this because every time he gets his way, there is a price to pay. Usually the woman finally gives in, but then punishes him with passive aggressive behavior.
I’ve seen many relationships where the man was giving in to her more often than not, and yet when they hit divorced, she is running around claiming it is independence day for her. The truth is it is really independence day for him. He now has far far more control over his life than he had while married.
But men get married more quickly as a rule. Why? A variety of reasons, but I think two are the main causes. 1st, he usually doesn’t have the kids which makes it easier to find a mate. I think that if more men getting equal time with their kids would change this somewhat. Just not as easy to date when you have kids in the house.
The 2nd thing is that it has been proven that men believe in romantic love far more than women do. So he is more likely to get remarried for love without balancing the spreadsheet.
I am not remotely religious, and I am a beta male in many respects, yet what watergirl says is spot on. I am able to admit as much. In fact, the data shows that beta males suffer the most because they can’t attract the really feminine traditional types that I find very attractive despite being beta, and they also eventually get left by the more masculine types, feminists etc. IE: feminine men, beta males et al, are the true losers in the game of love, not the ladies. Because it is true, we come from a tournament mating system, where 20% of the males got 80% of the females. It’s a horrid experience to be a beta male. I should know.
Watergirl, you are going to be screwed royally by investing in making sure your husband gets ahead when he cheats on you and leaves. Or he won’t leave and you’ll put up with cheating because you have done nothing with your life and have become nobody. If I had a dollar for every woman like you whose husband was cheating because he KNEW she couldn’t/wouldn’t leave even if he got caught – I wouldn’t have to work for the rest of my life and could get a chariot powered by naked men to carry me around till the day I died, lol. Watch your back, girl although you probably don’t even care if she cheats right? You’ll stand by your man….. ugh gross times, gross times.
Mrs. Vee, I understand what you are saying, but a woman’s masculine energy, that which makes her a business shark, is the same thing that will make.her find flaws in the man, and be critical. We only need to see why this is bad by looking at some magazines articles for men 3 to 5 decades ago. Even the movie the Great Zantini, was about this issue. In short, men tried to act at home like they acted at work. Where as at work, he was successful because he saw flaws and corrected them, punished then, etc… This did not work at home. At home it caused hate, crushed morale, etc…
In other words, you say to separate the two, but the truth is, they usually go hand in hand. That which makes her great at business makes her awful in relationship. For the man with a degree, the unaccomplished woman is a better bet for his long term security because she is more likely to respect him over the long term. She does not see as many flaws, and those she does see are overshadowed in her mind by all Orangeville qualities she sees. This is far safer for him than a women who sees those same flaws, and can’t get past them.
Evan,
What a great blog! And, as always, it’s interesting reading everyone’s comments. When I first read the two letters that opened this post, I definitely felt a jolt of recognition. But as I read further, and then all these comments, that feeling has faded.
You see, that whole “men are intimidated by your intelligence” thing is something I’ve been told by well-meaning friends my whole life. But I don’t buy it. Honestly, I’m probably reasonably up there on the intelligence scale, but mostly I’m just a very curious person. I read constantly. I go to physics lectures for fun. I’m very cultured. I persue very “intellectual” pastimes because I’m interested and curious. But I’m not well-educated, particurally successful, wealthy, or aggressive in relationships.
I don’t nag. I don’t criticize. (I’m far too insecure to be a difficult woman.) Also, I’m very, very feminine, i.e. long hair, dresses and skirts every day, loves to cook, and extremely affectionate. So, yes, some folks might think I’m a brainiac, but I still read the occasional Dean Koontz novel. I’m hardly an intimidating person. My point is, not all intelligent women are Type A individuals. We’re not all any one thing. I think Evan’s advice is good, but he still hasn’t told me that secret advice that fixes my whole life. I’d better keep reading the blog.
Susan:
I like you. Thanks for being so fair. It’s refreshing among all the vitriol.
” (I’m far too insecure to be a difficult woman.) ”
And therein lies your challenge. If you can see and identify your insecurity, then you can bet that your non-verbal communication and non-verbal cues reveal that to whomever you’re talking to. Lack of eye contact, posture, soft voice, rapid rate of speech (inquisitive is great, just don’t fire off questions.)
“Just someone who makes his life EASIER and more pleasant.”
Are women allowed to want this as well? Mis-match on this front seems to be the real problem.
Most of the men I know value strong, successful women. Complaints to the contrary sound legit, but IMNSHO mask the woman’s own fear of commitment.
I would love a man that made my life more pleasant and easier. After spending years doing that for a man, unless I get it in return, I’m no longer interested. I’ve never met a man who was a giver in the relationship when it came to anything else other than money. Well, I don’t want their money – I can get my own. I want respect, help, fun and emotional support. My girlfriends are far better at that than any man I’ve ever met. So what CAN a man give that I can’t get elsewhere without becoming a drudge and simpering idiot to his macho self? Someone who is so easy going he takes me for granted? I am quite old and in my WHOLE life behind closed doors and away from facebook and the narratives women tell people, I’ve only ever met ONE who was honestly, truely happy and in love with her husband after 10 years. He is an exceptional man and has allowed himself to be influenced by his wife and she has done a fair and magnificent job at building their family. I’ve never met a woman who wasn’t making unfair compromises, killing parts of herself, turning herself into a pretzel and putting up with BS after a long enough period of time with the same man or vice versa. There seems to be a use by date on happiness in every relationship I know the absolute truth about. And usually when one side says they are happy it’s in direct proportion to how unhappy and compromising the other side is. I know after 20 years my husband told me I had made him a better man – I could not say the same about him after all the compromises I had to make to keep the peace inside that household so my children were not affected.
In my relationship, I desire nothing more badly than to be able to turn off the type-A switch at night. Running a company, being my own sole source of support, paying a mortgage, and staying up on home repairs by myself is *exhausting.* I really miss feeling protected and loved, and would adore a man that wants to lead much/most of the time. To surrender and let go a bit would really balance me out. I *crave* that.
That said, I find that many of the men I meet aren’t as strong at leading as I need. I find that they either want me to lead (turn-off for me) or they want a woman who is weaker than they are.
So while I agree that strong women sometimes need to turn the leadership off, that alone seems like half the solution. For me, I’m also looking for someone who is naturally strong. I can tone down my own alpha-tendencies, but not to a level that is even weaker than some of the passive men I’ve been meeting.
I’m a strong woman that is silently begging to be led.
Me too. I agree with your entire statement. I wish i could come home to somebody who treated me like a soft woman. Not a man who feels like they need to put me in my place or compete with me or treat me like I’m their mother. Obviously I’m single for a reason and its because i can’t turn the daytime me off lol. But i wish i could.
“I’m a strong woman that is silently begging to be led.” And your comment bites the dust. Woman or man, or just people in general, need to be flexible in their stereotypical, or hormonally-driven – whatever – roles, so that there is a balance.
Camilla. the kind of men who want to lead are by definition ones who want a woman who is weaker then they are.
JimmyE: Gotcha. I think I just need to find a man can be stronger than me. Then we’ll both be happy!
Sadly, with your credentials, the kind of man who would be stronger then you is probably dating young women who look like models and are unemployed (and therefore have more time for him).
Have you considered simply giving up some of your power in order to lower yourself back into the realm of the men in your dating pool? Try this, sign over your company to a man you like and have him lead it. Now he is more powerful than you (and therefore good enough for you) plus you have less on your plate and so are less exhausted. Sound like a terrifying idea? That’s because you care more about the power than about the man. You don’t want to give up your superiority over everyone.
Also, you really aren’t better then all the men you are meeting, you just think status and power are the only important things in life. For all your money and accomplishments you still aren’t happy. Maybe it is time to give them up so you can fall in love with a mortal man?
So then, are men not actually interested in relationships with women but power as well? Because by your reasoning it’s a problem on both sides. Is she has to give up power, it’s because someone else is vying for it. Why should he have everything she’s worked so hard for?