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Now I know that writing this is not going to change a thing. People who were irked by the concept that women should make men invest more before having sex are still probably going to be irked — but at least I’ll know that I gave it my best shot to illustrate my arguments effectively. Okay, ready? Here we go.
Believe it or not, most men do not lie in order to get sex.
First of all, here was the premise of my original post:
“You want to find out if a man is serious about you? Wait to have sex with him. If you don’t — because you’re a liberated woman who can have sex whenever you damn well please — don’t be too surprised if a decent percentage of those men never call again. Again, I’m not remotely judgmental of those who have sex without commitment; I will only point out as a dating coach that it tends to lead to sub-optimal results from men because they didn’t have to do anything special to get into bed with you.”
I can’t see anything about which one can argue. As always, I was wrong. 🙂
Below are some of the comments I received (in italics), along with my responses.
“What about having sex for the sheer joy of it without any agenda and expectation?”
What about it? If you can have sex with the guy you meet for first time for the sheer joy of it without any agenda and expectation, then my advice to hold out for a commitment should be completely irrelevant. How irrelevant? As irrelevant as me wondering how often I should get a mammogram. Seriously. If advice doesn’t apply to you, then you can absolutely ignore it. What you can’t do is argue with advice that is not intended for you.
This is the exact same issue I had with women who tried to pillory Lori Gottlieb’s “Marry Him,” by saying that they settled in their first marriage so Ms. Gottlieb’s advice is completely “wrong.” No it’s not. If you’re a woman who wants to have her own biological children, you have more options when you’re in your early 30’s than you do in your early 40’s. Therefore, it’s wise to take your love life seriously at a younger age, and make smart compromises when you have the most attention from the largest pool of high quality men. If you don’t want to get married, if you don’t want to have kids, and if you would rather be alone than make any compromises, Ms. Gottlieb’s advice would not apply to you. No need to get upset.
“Sex doesn’t keep any man who doesn’t want to be kept. A woman can wait 6 months 6 days or 6 hours. If he isn’t marriage-minded, it makes little difference.”
Mostly correct. Alas, it wildly misinterprets what I was suggesting. Believe it or not, most men do not lie in order to get sex. As we’ve already established, they don’t have to. Sex is so readily available from women that there’s no incentive for a guy to have to say something untrue like, “I love you” or “I want to be your boyfriend” in order to get laid. And if that’s the case, then guess what? Holding out for commitment will, in fact, scare the guy away who only wants to get laid.
It’s not about a number of dates or months: it’s about assessing his intention: does this guy really like you or does he just want to have sex with you?
Naturally, calling a guy a boyfriend doesn’t guarantee a lasting marriage — not by any stretch of the imagination. But it does do one thing: it ensures that the guy you just slept with is not seeing anybody else and is seriously open to exploring a future. (Unless, of course, he’s a psycho who would lie to your face to get laid — and I’m suggesting most normal men would rather find another woman than to do that.)
“There is a shaming of women for wanting to have sex.”
From whom? Not from me. As I said in my original post, “I’m not remotely judgmental of those who have sex without commitment.” Hell, I’ve had a lot of sex without commitment. But guess what? Most of it was completely selfish. I was attracted to them on date 1, 2, or 3. I had no intention of stepping up as a boyfriend. And if she let me know that she didn’t sleep with guys outside of a commitment, I’d have been out the door in a heartbeat. Which is the entire point of my suggestion — it weeds out the guys who aren’t serious about you really fast.
“This is why so many feel “used” because they waited a month, or two, or three and finally “gave in” and POOF he’s gone anyways.”
I didn’t say that you should wait a month or two or three before “giving in”. Waiting for some arbitrary time period has never been the point. Because, you’re right: a guy can “wait you out” for 7 arbitrary dates, fuck you, and then bail. But since most men do not want the hassle or the emotion of calling you a girlfriend and THEN bailing, by refusing sex without commitment, you weed those guys out. Understand, if a guy is really into you after 3 dates, you can both agree to give a serious relationship a shot and have sex. I’ve done that a number of times — where I was so whipped that I dove into an exclusive sexual relationship right away. So it’s not about a number of dates or months: it’s about assessing his intention: does this guy really like you enough to commit or does he just want to have sex with you?
“We woman are damned if we do and damned if we don’t. Have sex too soon and you’re considered too easy. Wait too long and the guy will get it somewhere else.”
Nope. No one is calling you easy for having sex. No one is suggesting that you’re losing out on a prize of a man if he values getting laid in three dates over how much he values you. You think you’re damned either way. I think you have all the power in the world: to be sexual, to assess your options, to understand his point of view, to make him feel good, and to STILL insist that your man be interested in pursuing a relationship before you have sex.
“EMK’s advice seems unrealistic for anyone not wearing a promise ring.”
Actually, it’s quite realistic. If you think she’s playing games to “catch” you, then nothing I can do will convince you. But if you had a great connection with a confident woman who told you that she doesn’t like the idea of you going home to write to other women online after you have sex, you would insist to her that you DO have the right to do that? Let me know how that conversation goes.
“Plus as a woman who likes sex, what the hell am I going to tell this guy if I don’t like the sex?”
You break up with him. All you people who are focused on “test driving” the car, I get it. Sex is important. But that’s the thing about dating: you have TWO PLUS YEARS to figure out if you want to get married. Sexual compatibility is one of many factors you’ll have to consider in determining your future. But choosing a boyfriend is a considerably lower bar to jump than choosing a husband.
You “sex first” people act as if you have to have sex before commitment or else. Or else what? Or else you’d discover after a month that you have different libidos, or that he isn’t great at cunnilingus? You think you have to discover this BEFORE you have a commitment…but isn’t the whole point of dating to continue to discover things to assess whether you can spend your life with a person? Again, I’m not saying sex isn’t important. I’m saying that you can engage in lots of serious foreplay before having sex, give an exclusive relationship a shot, and if it doesn’t work for ANY reason, you have the right to break up, one month, two months, three months down the line. In that regard, sex is no different than learning that he’s got anger issues or is a bad communicator. You work with what you’ve got and if you can’t make it work, you break up. You don’t HAVE to have sex first; you WANT to have sex first. Which is fine — as long as the woman is up for the insecurity of not knowing where your relationship is headed. Many, as you know, are not.
“If our culture starts once again demanding and creating chaste women, you’re going to get chaste women through and through.”
Chaste means abstaining from extramarital or all intercourse. I’m saying that women should wait until he’s a boyfriend, even if that means date 3.
“Best thing is to remove expectations so you will never get hurt.”
As an online dating coach, I spend a lot of time managing women’s expectations and trying to ensure they’re realistic. If you expect to fall in love in 30 days on Match, you’ll be disappointed. If you expect that only “appropriate” men will write, you’ll be disappointed. If you think that just because you had a great date that you’re in a relationship, you’ll be disappointed. What I’m talking about here is completely different. You can “remove expectations” and not be too surprised when the guy who fucked you is on OkCupid the next day. I guess that’s healthy. But why put yourself through that? Why not just save intercourse for men who verbally told you that they want to be exclusive with you?
Why remove all expectations from men and expect nothing from them? Remember, that’s the biggest problem — you’ve seen it all over this blog: “Men only text! Men just want to hook up! Men don’t want to pay! Men don’t plan in advance! Men are players who don’t want to commit!” And so the answer to that is to sleep with them, expect nothing, communicate by text, and take your chances that you both decide a relationship is viable? I don’t like those odds.
If you’re an intern who can’t call regularly, has given no indication that you’re looking for commitment, and refuse to wait a couple of extra weeks before having sex, my clients don’t want you working at their company.
Now to avoid being misinterpreted: if you WANT to text, fuck, and not have any expectations from the guy, God Bless You. This advice has nothing to do with you and you should have absolutely no criticism of it. This advice is ONLY for women who are SICK of sleeping with men and feeling like crap afterward because they don’t know where they stand. I will repeat this two or three more times.
“What I want to challenge you on is this notion that women ought to be bartering sex for commitment.”
I would like to challenge that notion, too. Because my clients who hold out for commitment are not bartering sex for commitment.
My clients are taking enough time to see two things: 1) whether HE is potential boyfriend material — kind, consistent, communicative, relationship-oriented and 2) whether SHE likes HIM enough to make him her boyfriend. Because as you know, it’s easy to have sex with someone out of attraction. But attraction is not a good predictor of compatibility. So if my clients take a little extra time to get past the initial lust phase and start to see a man clearly, they can usually tell if he is making enough effort to be a boyfriend AND if she likes HIM enough to commit to him.
This is coming from a place of POWER, not weakness. In my world, women are the CEO’s and the men are the interns applying for the job. And if you’re an intern who can’t call regularly, has given no indication that you’re looking for commitment, and refuses to wait a couple of extra weeks before having sex, my clients don’t want you working at their company. The petulant interns who think that they deserve to have sex with women without commitment because it’s been three dates are not going to get the job. They will feel righteous, as if the woman is being a prude or playing a game. She is not. She is putting herself first because she has determined that sleeping with a man and waiting by the phone for him to call sucks and she doesn’t want to have to go through it again. I believe that’s her right. Just as it’s his right to bail. In my book, it’s more his loss than hers.
These aren’t tactics to “catch” a man. These are tactics to repel men who don’t want to commit.
“What keeps guys around is not sex or the prospect of sex (although it sure doesn’t hurt). It’s a strong confident in herself woman who takes pride in herself and doesn’t rely on sneaky tactics to try to catch or keep a man.”
100% agree. A confident woman will have absolutely no compunction about telling some overzealous guy that she barely knows to keep his dick in his pants. It takes confidence to be willing to let a cute guy walk away because he is not getting his sexual needs met on his timetable. These aren’t tactics to “catch” a man. These are tactics to repel men who don’t want to commit and keep women from having their hearts broken by pump-and-dump guys.
Another aside for those who have forgotten: if you are fine having NSA sex with men who are not committed to you, that’s your business. Whatever makes you happy. I’m not judging you, shaming you, or telling you that you’re wrong. I’m telling women who hate the feeling of being in limbo with a man how to avoid being in limbo ever again.
“Being ready to share intimacy with a man you like and have a connection with is by no means being reckless. It’s being real and embracing your feminine wholeness.”
If you are comfortable sleeping with men from your place of “feminine wholeness” without any expectations, that’s cool. Many women are not. This advice is for them.
“I had sex with my man on the first date and shortly after he asked me for a relationship and now I am claimed as his girlfriend.”
Yep. A lot of relationships start that way. Most of mine included. I’m not questioning the morality of this. I’m questioning the effectiveness of it. When two strangers hop into bed for a night of passion, the dynamic changes, whether you like it or not.
Sometimes, he doesn’t even like you as a person.
Sometimes, he likes your body, but not your personality.
Sometimes, he’s really lonely and really horny.
Sometimes, he’s seeing someone else at the same time.
Sometimes, he’s on the rebound.
Sometimes, he’s emotionally unavailable.
Sometimes, he’s a selfish prick.
So when one poster defends her “fuck first, ask questions later” philosophy by saying, “I got to know him after sex. I got to know all my men after sex,” what she’s really saying is that she’s willing to take a chance on a man who may not like her as a person, a man who is lonely, a man who is seeing other women, a man who is emotionally unavailable, or a man who is a selfish prick. Why? Because she has no expectations. And because she has no expectations and is perfectly willing to hop into bed with a guy, you should, too.
I’m not questioning the morality of this. I’m questioning the effectiveness of it.
Read that list again. Have you ever slept with a man like that? You don’t think that if you went out with him 7 times over the course of 4 weeks, you could maybe have figured some of that stuff out BEFORE sleeping with him?
Another reminder: if you have no issues sleeping with men who are jerks, this advice isn’t for you. But my intimation is that you’re going to know a guy MUCH better — particularly his long-term intentions and how you get along with him platonically — after a month than after a night. So what’s the harm in this again?
“Maybe we just like sex too and we need to get laid as much as men.”
Cool by me. But that wasn’t the point of the video or my blog post. It’s to protect women who don’t have that same outlook from getting hurt.
“Why would a man want a relationship with all that it involves when he can go have sex and leave and do whatever he wants?”
Because men look for sex and find love. In the act of pursuing sex, he gets to know you better and determines that he really loves being around you. The more he loves being around you, the more he’ll want to be around you over all others. And when he values you over all others, he’ll spend his whole life with you because what he gains from the relationship is greater than what he gives up by being monogamous.
“Sex is easy… a relationship is a journey. If these interactions are not at least playful and easy from the start, they rarely ever become.”
Agreed. No one wants to have to negotiate for sex. Which is why it’s in really bad form to ask someone on the first date what his long-term intentions are. And why it’s in really bad form to ask someone if he’s seeing someone else. And why it’s in bad form to ask how many partners someone has had. And why I would never suggest that a woman come out and say to a man over appetizers: “By the way, I will not be sleeping with you tonight.” Yes, that would take all the fun right out of it.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman saying, on the fifth date when he’s reaching for the condom drawer, “Hey, I’m really attracted to you and would love to sleep with you, however I don’t like having sex with guys who are actively looking for other women on Match.com. You can understand, right?” And he’ll say, “Yeah, I get it.” And then she’ll say, “So, when we both figure out if this is a relationship worth exploring, you’re in for the night of your life. In the meantime, I can think of some other fun things to do…” And then they can proceed to explore each others’ bodies to the limits of whatever boundaries she decides to set.
As an aside, it’s interesting how some “no means no” women get really upset when I tell women that they’re actually allowed to say “no”. As if I’m restricting your choice or slut-shaming you for saying yes. I’m not. I’m only saying one thing: sleeping with a man without commitment increases your chances of getting heartbroken by a selfish, emotionally unavailable, commitmentphobic guy. If you are willing to take that risk because you love sex so much, more power to you.
I’m glad that I’ve outlined a paradigm that so many women have used to great effect. A woman can say no to intercourse and still be cool, fun, playful, sexual, confident and attractive to men. All it means is that she has her own very reasonable boundaries about when she has sex. If he can’t respect that, he should move along.
Holding out for sex is not about holding out until marriage, tricking him into a relationship or trying to keep him around. On the contrary, it’s about taking enough time to assess whether your guy is truly boyfriend-worthy rather than sex-worthy.
And, as I may have mentioned: if you don’t care if he’s boyfriend-worthy and you just want to have sex, fuck away as you see fit. No one’s judging you.
Marina Adshade says
If you genuinely want to say that you do not support slut shaming then you need to retract your statement in your previous post that “affirms everything that I’ve ever written about sex and gender”. The argument made in the video makes no claim that individual women should withhold sex in order to encourage a man to commit to a relationship. In fact, the main point of the video is that the current “economic” environment that would never work because that man can always find more cooperative women. The argument of the video is that women need to find a way to coerce other women into withhold sex. The are advocating for slut shaming – there is absolutely no way around that. I don’t necessarily think you are wrong in what you say, but I do not think that you agree with the argument in this video. I suspect that if you watch it carefully you will find that you fundamentally disagree with the message that women should “police” (their word, not mine) each other’s behaviour.
Evan Marc Katz says
I endorsed a point in the video – the point is that women teach men how to treat them. The fact that there are women who think that they HAVE to put out because OTHER women put out is as much of a problem as “slut shaming”. I’m giving those women who DON’T want to put out a script on how to message it, in a confident and effective fashion. That is MY point – even if it’s not the original video’s point.
In other words, the video was just a means to start the dialogue.
I’ve written five pages explaining that I’M not slut shaming anyone. I don’t think I need to explain myself any further since I spent two hours writing the above post.
Paulette says
Evan, you don’t have to explain yourself again… Your writing and advice is crystal clear and free of shaming anyone! Maybe some who believe you are shaming women are more concerned with getting approval than owning and being confident in the path they have chosen.
Anita Villines says
Yes!!! Love, love, love all of your advice Evan Marc Katz!!! Your feedback is crystal clear and it sets women up for successful #Relationships —You are a Godsend and have helped me in a number of ways this summer! THANK YOU!!! xoxo
CC says
Exactly!
Jennifer says
How one feels after reading a dating advice blog is a personal thing. Even isn’t implying anything he is just pointing out the facts. How one feels afterwards is a reflection of there own confidence or demons or just another decent piece of advice to help us through the joys and or sorrows of dating.
its not like hes speaking of your specific good or bad choices. Even is evidanced based however it applies to you is personal.
I dont always like what I read but I usually can learn something about my own choices and also about men in general. I take his blog advice and aplly it how I feel necessary. Nothing in dating is an exact science. Science by definition is all about trial and error. What works and doesn’t work isn’t going to be exactly the same for everyone, or every relationship for that matter.
Thank you Evan, reaing your blog has been very helpful in my dating life. Specifically your “mirroring” concept.
Ruth Houston says
If women were not in the work force or didn’t have the opportunities to get an education. If there was no birth control and abortion was illegal women would wait for sex then . Also if society was as hard on men about waiting and respecting themselves which is apart of the problem women would be very different.
Krish says
Try Islam …hehe !
xyz says
Holding off on sex is a relationship filter. Those guys who pass through the filter by waiting longer will be easier to control with sex in the long term.
DeeGee says
There is nothing wrong with a woman waiting, I also encourage it.
There is nothing wrong with a woman in a relationship using sex also as a gift or bonus.
If a woman is using sex to “control” a man, then he needs to have a good talk with her, and if she doesn’t change her ways on that, he needs to leave her.
Patty says
Wow. You said that aloud? I think that I heard you say that if you hold off having sex early in the relationship, that you will know/hope that he will be easier to control with sex later?
Having sex with your partner should not be about control. It should be about enjoyment and physical intimacy. If you’re in a committed relationship it should be about caring and sharing – never about control.
Krystal says
I agree with the others, your post is crystal clear. Thank you so much for this article! 🙂
pamela patrick says
I love your point! Sex is important ,but I know unless you are just a lady that needs sex then it is not the answer at all. It still does not say much because if you need someone for sex that is saying you DO NOT HAVE HAVE CLASS TO WAIT IT OUT FOR ANYONE! I once knew a man for many and I do mean many years he flew for Delta and I had sex with him a few after seeing him a few times and then something happened I never wanted to see him again. Eight years later he saw me and wanted to pick up where we left off . I went out as a friend only and made him chase me then I decided to fly and see him we both worked for the airlines and was with him ,but wanted to know where his head was at and was willing to give it a chance again ,but I did not sleep with him that night and the next day he told me how I was beneath him in education ,I did not say a bad word back to him I kept silent knowing if I would have slept with him this would be my award NOT GOOD! I wanted to see if he wanted me or just sex! Sex was the winner ! all he had to do was talk it over with me the next day and I would have been his but I never went out with him again and yes I loved him and he never knew! He tried to say he was sorry ,but I knew he spoke the truth in how he felt and I am just so glad I did not hear that after sex!
Annie says
God bless you.x
Sheen says
Evan, even with all the explanations you will still have to explain lol. I really loved your articles and I truly understand what you wrote. Look forward to reading more!
taylor says
Womens should not HAVE to “teach” men how to treat them. men should treat women with equal respect as another human being.
Evan Marc Katz says
You don’t have to teach men anything. You have to stop expecting men to act against their own self interest and start setting boundaries for yourself.
Kelly says
I completely agree with your points!! I’m am attractive woman who has no problem at all in this department. I’ve had all kinds of relationships with men: single men and married men, older, younger, blue collar, white collar; and every point you made was exactly on point! The fact that so many women are defending causal sex reflects the status of our culture. I enjoy sex very much but I know (from men) that 9x’s out of 10, the loose one isn’t the one they want to marry, date, respect. Women do teach men how to treat them! We all want passion, hot steamy sex that connects souls. Causal sex is a band aid. It satisfies no one long term. Don’t care what you say. Real satisfying sex comes with emotional connection acquired through commitment. It’s satisfying and is intended to bring two people together. I love what you said, men find love in their pursuit of sex. I just love men. Keep writing! Also Evan, It’s safe to ignore all the comments from people trying to tear apart a great message. This is a message that young men and women need to hear and one that older men and women to remember. Thank you!
Btw, tonight I turned down a married man, and he ended up respecting me way more than the other woman who gave it up. He didn’t treat her respectfully at all afterward, yet he waited on me hand and foot at our client dinner. I felt sorry for her. 🙁
Ruby says
It’s not that I disagree with your premise, but when you align yourself with a particular conservative ideology, you may have your own beliefs called into question. Same thing happened with the Venker post from last year. You might not agree with everything the writer says, but others are going to wonder why you’re promoting that ideology then. Might actually be more effective to just promote what you believe, rather than using someone else’s writings, even as an example.
A woman needs to act in a way that makes her comfortable. It shouldn’t be contingent on what a man expects, or the way that other women behave. Most women who are looking for a serious relationship are more probably going to be more comfortable waiting longer for sex. Most men who are relationship-minded will probably understand that. I’m not saying you are advocating this, but waiting for sex shouldn’t be considered a “strategy” that will make a man want you more, because I don’t think it works like that, and some might construe your meaning that way.
Evan Marc Katz says
When did it become “conservative ideology” that no means no? I’m a party line liberal, but I really take offense to the ideas that liberals have cornered the marketplace on good ideas and conservatives are idiots. The fact is that if women don’t hold men to any sort of standard except “attraction” before having sex, that means they’re going to a lot of sex with attractive, unreliable, rude, distant, emotionally unavailable men. That is their right. But then, to complain that men never call, never text, never make plans in advance, never pay…and all they want to do is hook up – well, forgive me if I find that to be a bid disingenuous. As I said AT LENGTH in my above post my “strategy” is not to manipulate men into commitment; it’s to protect women who are uncomfortable having sex with a guy who is still seeking out other women. I am an advocate for women making healthy relationship decisions and I would think that if you follow my advice, you will avoid a great deal of heartbreak.
Oh, and Venker – for all her right-wing nuttiness – ALSO had a point, which my liberal feminist readers fail to acknowledge: men want to FEEL good around you. It’s on Page 1 of Why He Disappeared. So while you may value yourself for being brash, driven, tenacious, busy and opinionated… those qualities are not necessarily helpful in the context of a relationship, which is all about sensitivity, compromise, and acceptance. Venker’s book – like the video I posted the other day – may not have been EXACTLY my thoughts, but that doesn’t mean that they have no value themselves. I fear anyone who immediately rejects an idea without exploring the possibility that it makes sense. And all the women who reflexively freaked out about the idea that it may in fact be in women’s long-term self-interests to say no to sex are as myopic as their colleagues on the far right. I’m not slut-shaming anyone. I’m offering common sense to women who are sick of getting fucked and dumped.
Eleis says
Thank you Evan everything you said good job! Loved and enjoyed reading ot
Linda hatton says
Think this article is great . Thank you cause you say it as it is its not tarnished with rose colored glasses on
CJ says
It’s rude how you are saying it like that! F’ed and dumped! I understand u are proving a point and prob stressed because people are critical on here..
I do agree it is better to wait and go out on dates first. I have gotten into relationships were I have had sex first and the relationship exclusivity followed but even so they were never good relationships and always got taken for granted. So everyone it is best to wait even if you have faith that he will treat you the same. Evan is right about that!! Perhaps things would still work if you can go back to the dating stage and not have sex until you are exclusive though Start over! Do you think that is possible Evan?
Kelly says
Ok here is a man explaining how men think and women are literally arguing with that. You can act how you want ladies, there is a reaction for every action. If you want a certain reaction, you must act a certain way. Geez, Lol
Martha says
“A woman needs to act in a way that makes her comfortable. It shouldn’t be contingent on what a man expects, or the way that other women behave.”
“Most women who are looking for a serious relationship are more probably going to be more comfortable waiting longer for sex.”
“waiting for sex shouldn’t be considered a “strategy” that will make a man want you more”
In regards the statements you made above.
Heaps of women sleep early with men, then complain why the guy isn’t committing. Lots of articles backing this up which can be found via Google. Thus, ultimately, waiting until being officially a couple weeds men out that aren’t interested in an LTR with you.
Having said that, a man isn’t going to choose you as a long term partner if you aren’t willing to meet his most important needs. Why should he pick you as a long term partner out of all the other women he is dating?
Thus whilst I do agree that a woman should act in a way that makes her comfortable, simultaneously she needs to consider a man’s need. The same way a man should consider your most important needs when dating you.
Jenn says
Martha,
Having sex is an important need but I believe it is not, as you say, a man’s most important need. Not unless he’s a perpetual player whose sole interest in women is getting laid. Men have other, more important needs than sex, even if sex is right up there near the top of the list. A relationship-oriented man who is looking for a long-term commitment (maybe even marriage) will NOT mind waiting, especially if he really likes a woman and can see a future with her. None of the guys I’ve been out with over the past year have even alluded to having sex within the first few dates. That is because they were not looking just to get laid. Men pick women as partners because they offer more important qualities than just how good the women are in the sack. To assert that men will only willingly commit if a woman has sex with them seems disrespectful both to women and to the men who may be looking for something more in a partner than just a great lay.
Martha says
Jenn,
With all respect, where have I stated that a man’s most important need is sex? I haven’t. At all.
All I stated was: “Having said that, a man isn’t going to choose you as a long term partner if you aren’t willing to meet his most important needs.”
NEEDS – plural. Whatever those needs are.
Carmen says
Martha,
“Why should he pick you as a long term partner out of all the other women he is dating?”
The REASON, he would choose me over all the other women he may be dating is that certain, je ne sais quoi. That’s the reason I would want someone to choose me. Some quality I have that no one else does. Something he finds fascinating, something he hungers for that he can’t get anywhere else. Sex, yes, he can find it many places and if that’s all he’s looking for, I wish him well and cast him into the realm of “could have been but wasn’t “.
Leon says
I don’t have sex with women when dating because I don’t want to get whipped and clouded, emotions are hard enough to control. I choose who I think is worth my investment of time into a relationship by their core values, Morals, likes and dislikes etc. It’s easier to call their bullshit too.
Evan’s article is exactly right.
Patty says
BINGO, Leon. I just met a guy; we have potential, I know he’s really into me (bc he has said so), and I like what I see so far, but I want to wait for the same reasons you stated. My situation is that men commit too early because the sex is great. They get twitter painted and want to ‘buy’ it and keep it with a LTR, but later we discover that it’s not a good fit in other important areas. This isn’t every man, but it happened in a 20 year marriage, and in two different three year exclusive relationships.
I’m waiting. I’m now 58 and I want a man who is sexually attracted to me but who also loves and appreciates the rest of me or it’s just not going to work in the long run.
Sim says
Martha
How do you know that a man isn’t going to choose you as a long term partner if you aren’t willing to meet his most important needs?
I would rather choose a girl who lets me fight for her than someone who is open to share herself with any men who comes her way.
I agree with Jenn on this: A relationship-oriented man who is looking for a long-term commitment (maybe even marriage) will NOT mind waiting, especially if he really likes a woman and can see a future with her.
Because I cherrished my my so much I even waited untill our wedding night!
A real MAN is going to wait for her no matter what!
Virginity is not something you just give away to get someone! IT SHOULD BE SOMETHING A GUY SHOULD FIGHT FOR!
Sim says
When I wrote not being willing to meet his most important needs….I meant without having his commitment.
taylor says
Did you make her fight for you by not having sex til marriage? Just curious…
Kelly says
We are not obligated to meet a man’s needs before he has committed Martha. (Especially while he’s seeing a host of other women?) That’s “The Bachelor’s” way of thinking. It makes me sick. Multiple women throwing themselves at one man trying to outdo each other so he’ll choose them??! No.
Kate says
Seriously? A woman should consider her own needs first. If a man needs sex so badly he can pleasure himself.
Excellent article Evan! Thank you!
Yogagurl says
Why is it a “conservative ideology”? This isn’t politics. Evan isn’t advocating this because of some ideology but because he feels this will empower women the most! There are reasons behind it. Also waiting for sex isn’t a “strategy”…it’s called having healthy boundaries. Amazing how some of you twist things.
Trey says
@yogagirl. You said it perfectly.
Doug Manning says
I always told my kids, “Fast in, fast out. Slow in, slow out.” Of course anyone can have sex anytime they want. If the objective is just the sex, who cares what the timing is. However, if a person is in the market for a long-term relationship, your advice is sound – any gender in a hurry ought to be asked to wait. If they don’t want to wait – well, they’re just not the more mature ‘delayed gratification’ type.
Christie says
Thank you for that comment, Doug and for adding a male voice to the comments. That one really hit me – ‘Fast in, fast out. Slow in, slow out’. You’re so right. You sound like a wonderful father. Your kids are lucky to have had your advice.
Sierra says
Evan, I love your blog. I’m a little frustrated by all the comments that totally misinterpret your message and argue all kinds of crazy shit that is not even what you are speaking to. I just ranted a bit on your facebook because a woman actually wrote a blog post “disagreeing” with you, and saying how wrong you are, and she totally misinterpreted your message. I just had a taste of how you may feel reading people’s responses who misinterpret your articles, it’s crazy making. Wow. I seriously think that you deserve a medal for dealing with these people. I am fine with people disagreeing with what you are actually saying, but distorting your words and meaning and taking up people time and space to rant about what your not even saying? Crazy making!!! Anyways Love your Blog so much you totally Rock evan!! <3
Gabri'el says
I completely agree with your statement Sierra, I broke my foot a few weeks ago, then I found Evan’s site; with so much time on my hands I ended up reading all his blog post, starting with his first one… Evan has always been clear and consistent with his message and views, but I swear he has to re-explain himself ever 10-15 blogs, if you read his material back to back you will quickly see the pattern of his posters, he is misinterpreted and misquoted more than you think… Funny thing is… many men say he is always on the female posters sides and many women say he’s on the male posters side, or like with this subject many of the posters forgot what her wrote about the same subject just a few weeks ago to a women who wrote him asking about a guy who didn’t want to wait or the post after that with the women who wrote asking could she have sex without a commitment… Evan has always been consistent
I still say THANKS Evan, though I’m not a woman I love reading your blogs, situations like this help me understand that is a women is waiting to have sex it’s not because she is trying to use sex -or he lack there of- as a weapon or way to manipulate me, but it’s because she wants to see if I’m sincere and consistent with what I’m telling her
soulsister says
I am with Sierra, #4….people can argue their POV all they want, and there are always exceptions, but it is 100% true (for me!) that when I thought there might be LRT potential with a guy, I did not sleep with him until I knew he was ready to be exclusive. If I was horny, or feeling liberated, or drank too much, I made sure I slept with the guy I WASN’T interested in an LTR with. Not because my “game” would secure the exclusive option, but because if I really thought I might like him, and we had sex and he disappeared, I.Felt.Like. Shit. The one I wasn’t interested in?? If he never called again, I didn’t care, because I wasn’t interested in the first place! I have no morale issues with sleeping with a man right away, I just know that protecting myself from hoping/wondering/praying when a good one came along was to not have sex with him. If I liked him, I CARED that he did a fuck and dump. I know that might be a backwards way to look at it, but truthfully, get screwed and dumped enough times, you should start figuring it out. I am as liberated as they come, but I always tell my friends, if you like him, don’t sleep with him until you are the only one he is sleeping with. I don’t have a single female friend who is ok with a guy she likes not calling her again. I have lots of female friends who are ok with a no strings attached night with a guy she doesn’t really have hopes for. And if you think you really like him, and won’t be able to “control” yourself, buy yourself a bullet and take care of things BEFORE the date…..really, we are big girls here, we should be able to keep our pants on by now!
John Galt says
I’m not judging you, but do you understand that people follow incentives, and that you get more of what you reward and less of what you punish? By making it more “expensive” for a guy to be “LTR material” while rewarding guys who are not…you push guys to be less of the former and more of the latter?
Further, if women hate being “pumped and dumped,” there is a male equivalent of pouring resources into a woman only to be “friendzoned.” I think a lot of what we describe as male sociopathic behavior is simply guys observing what seems to work with women and copying it.
I don’t have a solution, just thought I would make an observation.
betty says
I understand the inclination to make him wait for sex in order to protect yourself from being hurt. However, it won’t change the end result.
Realistically if he leaves you after sex then he will leave you regardless of how long you make him wait. Also, if you like him then most likely you’ll feel like shit if he leaves you whether you had sex or not.
Similarly, a man who would pursue a LTR with you will do so even if you have sex relatively quickly. It may even increase your chances of a relationship b/c if you wait too long than he may assume you’re not interested and move on.
Whatever the result, making a man wait won’t make a difference one way or another.
josh says
Isn’t that missing the point? One doesn’t make a man wait to “get the man”. One makes a man wait to weed out the players that are interested in sex and nothing else.
If one hops in bed with a player, he might stick around for a while until he gets bored, and that “while” is long enough for the lady to get attached, and thus hurt, when he leaves. By causing the players to bail early, one prevents getting attached to someone who’s not looking for a LTR.
Sabrina says
Thanks for the reminder that as a woman, the power is in my hands! If a guy doesn’t like me enough to want to wait until I’m comfortable, he just doesn’t like me enough. And why would I want to be with him? Having a guy walk away in frustration after 3 dates is better than him breaking up with me over some other reason after 3 years.
Dina Strange says
One of the best posts written by you, Evan. Thank you!
Mimi says
Totally agree!
Sophie says
Totally agree with Soulsister
I just seduced a guy on date #2, all he was hoping for was a hug, not even a kiss. But I was sooooo horny, like you can only be at 39 and I didn’t see him as a future husband, so the guy got lucky… if I were into a guy I would have never slept with him on date#2.
Di says
But you’re not Evan’s target audience. I am. I CAN’T do casual sex. It would hurt me emotionally and tarnish my self-respect. I need the commitment to enjoy sex. I’m here because Evan has made it his purpose in life to help women like me find a suitable partner. Once the relationship is right, not only will I want lots of sex (come on, I’m 37!), but I’ll be able to enjoy it to the fullest with the connection that I need.
Di says
I want to clarify that I think I misread soulsister’s post at first, so my reply may seem confusing, but my point still stands. Many of us are wired to attach during sex, so casual sex is a dangerous prospect.
Patty says
LOL. Been there, done that. I’m in total agreement with soulsister too. So, basically we treat this issue much like a man would. Casual sex is good, but we’ll wait for the ‘keeper’.
Just started seeing a man with great relationship potential, and I’m waiting – therefore he is too. 🙂 Not because I’m trying to manipulate him, but because I want to protect both of our hearts as much as is possible. We have a strong connection, we’re both looking for a LTR, but if things don’t work out a month or three down the line, someone (or both of us) is going to get butt hurt! Waiting to have sex doesn’t mean there won’t be pain or disappointment, but it may lessen it. Just looking out not only for myself, but for him too.
Adam says
Can we assume you, Sophie and soulsister are prepared to explain to Relationship Guy why the precious & rare thing you made him commit & wait months for was so recently given away immediately and unconditionally to one or several Casual Guys?
Lotus says
I can explain the reason to wait before having sex for a potential LTR. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2031498/Sex-Why-makes-women-fall-love–just-makes-men-want-MORE.html
People get confused when having sex too early, especially women who get a hit of hormones such as Oxytocin, Vasopressin, Dopamine and norephedrine which confuses our perception to cloud our judgments to experience what we see as “love”. Except that its effects wear off gradually after 1.5 to 2 years, long enough for people to make babies and invest in staying together for procreation. After the hormonal cocktail wears off people experiences what it called “falling out of love”. Except that is romantic love, without compatibility (other forms of love: agape, pragma, philauta and storge..etc..) and commitment people are surprised that they couldn’t get over their differences.
It’s my experience that it is best to examine the compatibility between couples without the hormonal cocktail confusing it all. It’s best to bond on other dimensions as well before engaging in regular sexual contact. It makes it more apparent if two people’s values, psychological habits and shared interests can sustain the relationship past the two years of “love cocktail”. I’ve been in relationships that came about as a result of sexual bonding, after 1.5-2 years it was apparent our differences showed. Even with long-term commitments relationships that came out of hormonal cocktail doesn’t work. One that is formed by mutual values, mutual interests, intellectual, moral and emotional connection is much more enduring. Women should do themselves and their potential LTR mates favour by postponing sex to assess these compatibilities carefully before the hormonal cocktail kicks in and confuses everyone.
Catharine says
I found out the hard way, later in life about having sex too soon. He did not like me, blew hot and cold and treated me like dirt when we were not having sex. I thought I was a pretty smart woman, but I was wrong. If I had waited, I would have kicked him to the curb and gone on with life instead of being very unhappy. Don’t kid yourself and think in time it will get better, it will not.
SparklingEmerald says
Thank you ! EMK for your response to:
“What I want to challenge you on is this notion that women ought to be bartering sex for commitment.”
I have made the same argument that it isn’t bartering as you, and caught a boatload of carp for it.
Any man who tries to manipulate a woman into bed with that line is essentially saying that women were put on earth to service the desires of men, with no regards to fulfilling their own desires. That would put him in the selfish jerk category, exactly the kind of men that your advice is designed to weed out. I guess women who claim that your advice is bartering, are essentially saying the same thing, and I have to wonder about their self esteem.
SweetGrl4U says
Sex is so readily available from women that there’s no incentive for a guy to have to say something untrue like, “I love you” or “I want to be your boyfriend” in order to get laid. And if that’s the case, then guess what? Holding out for commitment will, in fact, scare the guy away who only wants to get laid.
Well said, well written, no other explanation needed. It’s that simple ladies!
Sophia says
They still do lie though lol
Judy says
Love this post, Evan, it is your very best and thank you for looking out for us!
Marie says
Well-written Evan! One of your best posts. I would say it’s no surprise that some women react so vehemently to your wait for sex advice. They take it as a personal attack on their character and way of life, passing judgement in them along the way even if they are not the intended audience. Ever notice it’s usually the same posters who get worked up? And there’s also the secret fear that if you are right then that means how they’ve been doing things may have been wrong or ineffective and therefore they are the common denominators in their failures. There are only a handful of people at a time who are truly open minded and want to change – these are the ones you write for. The rest will persist in their culture of blame – its never them, but their ex, men, society, other women competing, their job, kids, age, match.com sucking, the decline of marriage, expectations for sex, etc. Women who date seriously need to take personal responsibility for the part they can control – their own actions. And if what you are doing is not working so far then doesn’t that tell you not to repeat the same thing?
Lynn says
LOL Marie some of us take longer to come out of the insanity (taking same action expecting different response) than others. It took me so long I’m almost embarrassed to admit it. But I think sooner or later the pain gets great enough to motivate us. I could not imagine before taking a different action how powerful and joyful I feel now. And I’m certain that because of this I’m attracting quality men, almost too many of them. (Ha ha as if!) Had to experience the results directly. I want people to not take my word for it but give it a genuine try and see if it works. If not, what have you lost?
Marie says
Exactly Lynn. There’s a time for everything though. Sometimes people are not ready. I’ve been tempted to go off this blog because technically I don’t need it anymore. I’ve found the man I was trying to find all my life. But I keep running into such extraordinarily BAD advice given to women by women commentators on here trying to prove Evan wrong that I feel compelled to say something. It’s not just Evan you are affecting, but other impressionable readers who may not have the experience or judgment to truly understand the difference between Evan’s advice and run of the mill dating advice. And these impressionable readers may actually follow the bad advice! I suppose one can say it’s their “fault” for not having the judgment but how are they supposed to really know without implementing it? It still gives me chills to think how different my life could have been had I listened to negative commentators on this blog rather than joining Evan’s group. Really, I would have missed out on some of the best things in life. I was never one to be that interested in marriage, dating, babies, on-line dating, but I kept an open mind. I thought, why not? The other thing is, people don’t realize you can adapt Evan’s advice to your personal goals and values. He’s not a one size fits all. You have to learn what you can from him and then have the common sense to try out what works for you. I’m glad you found your way and are on here. Maybe I won’t feel the need to post as much.
Pauline says
Well said Marie, I couldn’t agree more with your comments.
Great post Evan, one of your best.
Annie says
Well said ! What are women often so stupid and gullible ? And why do they believe anything
coming out of Hollywood and in the pages of certain magazines ? Don’t they realize
that the minorities who write and produce these lies could care less about their spiritual or emotional happiness ?
Henriette says
True, Hollywood and media don’t care about our happiness or well-being. But, it’s really not their job to care about us, is it? Their only job is to make money. So, let’s leave them to do what they do best and turn our attention to ourselves. It’s up to us to us to figure out what we want and need, and then not blame anyone else if we don’t get it.
And while we’re on the topic of taking personal responsibility, let’s not expect the men we date to know how to make us happy (or even care… at least, not at first). If they don’t treat us as we need to be treated, then we can walk away. If we agree to have sex on their schedule instead of our own, then that’s our own choice and we have to accept the consequences (both positive and negative) instead of pointing the finger and accusing them of being bad guys.
Christine says
Evan, I love this post and the previous post with the video. I saw the video on Freakonomics. I shared it on FB, thinking it accurately depicted my personal experiences in the past several years. Then I saw your post saying it affirmed what you’ve been saying all along. It was an interesting synchronicity and confirmed to me that I am personally going in the right direction with this issue.
I am only speaking for myself, but I think it’s hard to admit that the some of the things I believed/did in dating didn’t/don’t get the results I wanted in relationships. Once I got over the need to be right, I was able to focus on doing what works.I would rather do what it takes to find a great man than keep doing what doesn’t work and not get the results I want. That includes waiting to have sex with someone.
I don’t agree with everything you say, but I think your perspective on this issue is spot on. Thank you!
Ana says
Evan,
As usual, well said. One thing I’m wondering about is the risk of STDs in the role of selecting partners. It seems the discussion centers on whether creating personal boundaries support or restrict sexual expression. Time is spent addressing how to say, “I have sex within committed relationships” which is great , but even then the increased number of sexual partners increases the risk of exposure to STDs, and even when a male is being honest about STD health status HPV is tested in men, but does show up in testing in women with the potential for impacting fertility. It seems to me that science and math are being ignored in these discussions, and I would love to hear your take on that dimension of sex .
Danaris says
What I think is so fascinating about the reactions to this post or really this blog in general is how it plays out many of the things I’ve read about how men and women process information as well as good ole human nature.
First, if you’ve read books or gone to seminars by Alison Armstrong, it’s no surprise that when Evan posts a blog or a video and wants his female readers to take away the one clear point in his mind, that they may get that one point, but they also focus on the details…details which can overshadow his point. Women’s focus on the details happened not only in this post, but in the post from the guy who thought his girlfriend was too busy, as well as the post of the 33 year old woman who connected with the 50 year old man, and tons more. I know I sure focused on some of the details in the video — details that I didn’t think Evan supported per se, but they were part of the video so it was hard for me to ignore them and just focus on the main message. But, that’s often how women think. Is that the way it should be? I don’t know, but it’s just the way it is. The question then becomes what does one do if you don’t want women to be distracted by details that detract from the main message?
Second, I went to a seminar called the cure for complaining and one thing I learned is the notion that people who have resolved an issue have very little tolerance for hearing complaints from people who haven’t resolved or conquered that issue. You very much see that dynamic playing out on the blog for the women who have taken Evan’s advice and found their man versus the women who are still searching and might be struggling a bit. Also, at the core of a complaint is a sense of powerlessness…which again is what we see playing out. Evan’s successful women feel empowered while the other women feel powerless in the dating game — at least in some areas. As one of the women who has complained from time to time, for me doing what Evan suggested was scary because in the back of mind was the thought, what if I do everything he says and I’m still not successful, won’t that just confirm that I am really and truly unlovable? Is this reasoning counter productive and seeming crazy? Sure it is because as human being we are often irrational and crazy. But, I really do believe that some of the resistance to changing and adopting some of Evan’s suggestion really is the fear that “If I try these things that have worked for so many other women and it doesn’t work for me, then I really am a loser.” I don’t know exactly when people are ready to change and finally open to doing something different. From my personal, it’s happened in a private moment when I have been honest and loving with myself.
Finally, I do wonder what is the role and/or impact on this blog of sharing personal experiences or opinions that might be different from what Evan indicates is effective in dating.
Evan Marc Katz says
People (not men, not women) don’t want to have their worldview challenged – even when that worldview isn’t “working” or making them happy. People will defend their right to be wrong/unhappy/ineffective all day long. Which is why I never understand the anger when I give advice that doesn’t apply to you. If you’re happy having sex with no commitment, why would you be remotely threatened that there are other women who might benefit from such a policy? I’m not making you “wrong”; yet you feel attacked because I’m suggesting that, for a greater number of women, sex without commitment is a losing strategy for personal happiness. There are studies that show the exact same thing. Here’s a perfect example:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/culture-in-mind/201111/no-strings-attached-sex-nsa-can-women-really-do-it
Dissenters are pretty much saying, “The study is WRONG,” which is not true, or “The study doesn’t apply to ME,” which is perfectly fair. But all the op-ed pieces explaining why NSA sex is healthy are ignoring the studies that show otherwise. In other words, it seems like people WANT the study to be untrue even if it’s not. Being closed to contradictory evidence is ideological thinking personified. I’m not built that way. Show me the study where women are – on the whole – HAPPIER having sex with men who show no signs of wanting a relationship, and I’ll concede that I was mistaken. But an anecdote how YOU had sex with a guy and didn’t care or how YOU had sex and it turned into love doesn’t refute the larger studies that suggest otherwise.
If you want anecdotal evidence? Read 7 years of this blog with women despondent over the man who is sleeping with her and not committing. Just because YOU’RE not built that way doesn’t mean many other women aren’t entitled to their feelings.
beth says
Good Psychology Today article. However, I think one aspect is commonly misinterpreted and that is the role of oxytocin.
First, oxytocin is released during orgasm. Many women report not having an orgasm during sex so the role of oxytocin is irrelevant in these cases. However, some women still become ’emotionally attached’ to men after having sex where she doesn’t orgasm. Thus oxytocin can’t be the only reason for emotional attachment.
Second, people confuse an emotional attachment with a sexual attachment.
As a woman, I can tell you that yes when I orgasm I feel attached to my partner. However, I attach to him as someone I would like to have sex with again. I don’t become attached to him as a person or suddenly desire to have a committed relationship with him if I wasn’t already desirous of one.
Evolutionarily this makes sense. Female orgasm isn’t necessary for conception but it does dramatically increase the chances. Not to mention a woman who orgasms from sex is more likely to choose sex over ‘alternative methods’ of sexual relief.
However, women are much less likely to orgasm from an encounter than men and it’s difficult to tell if a man can give her an orgasm before having sex with her. Thus it makes sense for a woman to have sex with a man she knows will bring her to orgasm as opposed to leaving him and continually having sex with multiple men that only leave her frustrated.
CC says
Beth, good points. I TRY to fall in love with a guy that is great in bed, even if they are a jerk. It’s like: wow if we liked each other, we could have this good stuff all the time! Sadly, the guys who want to stay with me are the ones that are bad in bed, and the ones that are good in bed are jerks. I try to overlook their faults to keep the sex going. That lasts a while, then I just can’t take their stupidity any more and ditch them. I would be ok with no strings sex, but when men know this, they treat me like crap, it becomes a big power play. The whole thing is so stupid, I have no faith in “relationships” any more. The divorce rest, the cheating rate, all this says: It’s a fantasy for most of us.
Ryan says
CC,
If you find yourself in a relationship in where both people have been investing for some time, then it wouldn’t hurt to both invest in each other. To help each other become better not just in a sexual perspective but in becoming the best version of themselves.
This notion of try before you buy is complete fiction because the more sex you have, the more you want. Both parties can improve in all aspects of life if they so choose to do so.
Ryan says
My last comment was in regards to guys who want to stay with you for who you are. Unfortunately, to be a ‘jerk’ is a personality trait and personality traits cant be changed, shouldn’t waste your time with people like that. Sexual experience on the other hand CAN be improved.
Haha says
Oxytocin is also increased through physical touch. That’s why petting you dog or hugging your kids makes you feel happier. It’s not true that orgasm increases your chance of getting pregnant.
Lynn says
Well put Evan, thank you so much for writing this. Waiting helps eliminate guys who are bad bets, and reduce your risk when dating. It’s fine to jump in if there is no long term potential and thus low probability of disappointment. I hate all the talk about no expectation, because we don’t control that, we should instead be honest with ourselves on the expectation we have “I want to be with this guy” or “I want to see if we have long term potential” “I want to be friends” and then make a decision according to that expectation. Go with it, don’t understand that if we wait, a lot of guys will fall sideways but the right guy will wait and then it’s less likely one gets hurt.
Erica says
Evan,
Spot on and great AMAZING article!! I really don’t understand why women are even going back and forth and making this a controversy. Nothing short of the truth and for you to take time to clarify is even more deserving of gratitude. This is what young women need to know. I wish you were my parent aa a teenager. Lots of wisdom and I would have spared a fair share of heartache. Everyone won’t always agree but for those of us who do completely – THANK YOU so much and for addressing something that our culture is starting to forget and even get offended at by trying to preserve more of our worth and value by being the CEO of our own lives.
Bravo, kudos, and many many thanks to you.
E.
Lynn (the other one!) says
Once again I’ll say that sexclusivity is empowering. The quality men will respect it. I’ve had two dates with one, with major attraction. His response to my policy (hey I’m a former bureaucrat) was “Whenever you’re ready. Oh, I might nicely take the initiative once in awhile – as he smiled – but it’s totally your call”. And his actions have matched his words. He’s ready to be exclusive; he’s off match; it’s me who moves a little slower. He’s cool with that but he’s really stepping up.
Akay says
I will play the bad guy here. Besides I believe I have significant number of data points to make some conclusions rather than anecdotal evidence. I had high-3 digit figures of sexual partners, ranging from conservative ladies to professionals, before being married happily to my wife.
I am a very analytic person, and some of my relationships were also experiments to at least have some hypothesis tested in a more controlled setting. You may call me a psycho, maybe… I was pretty sure back then that it is statistically unlikely that I am going to meet the lady I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. If you don’t take a scientific approach all you will get is “I think this, I think that”. Just bunch of opinions. There are 7 billion people on this planet. Roughly half is the other gender, and perhaps 25% of that is in your age range. Even if you narrow it down with bunch of criteria you will see that the number of people you need to meet to make an optimal decision is in the range of millions. Based on the total number of days your heart will beat you should actually keep the tempo.
Why early sex is important? Contrary to what EMK claims, sex should not be delayed in figuring out if s/he is the right person for you, because no matter what people say this is the ultimate yes/no indicator. I have seen religious couples who had no premarital sex and spent their lives in misery when they figured out that they had no sexual compatibility.
Most of the time, it took me a few minutes whether the girl is for me or not. If not, I would date her anyhow just to have sex. I am not willing to starve myself sexually. That’s why many women are disappointed when the guy is there just for sex. It is quite unlikely number-wise that the man you met is for you. You are searching 1 in millions. For some reason it is believed that spending time with somebody to get to know better or delaying sex will make the person right for you. It won’t. Pragmatic men will keep you in their sexual portfolio. I wouldn’t mind having the boring 3rd 4th date, if the lady is pretty and I had nothing better to do over the weekend, if I would get into her pants.
As I said I also had experiments. I made a few ladies, who told me that they would like to take things slow, wait deliberately very long time to see what the response would be. Guess what? They got extremely frustrated. Some of them called me “gay”. The best part is to dump them when they think the sex is finally coming. I agree it is cruel, but it works both ways. They asked for slow they got their slow.
So if you think that investing in N number of dates will make a person right for you. You are wrong. Number N doesn’t make the person right, but it may give you more time to bend your mind enough to fit the person into something s/he is not.
After hundreds of encounters and 6 different countries I found the person. It wasn’t easy but it was worth it. All I did was to follow the science of statistics. Not the number of dates.
Jenn says
Akay,
Delaying sex helps people to focus on who they are as people. It helps people to figure out whether or not they are compatible in terms of a relationship. Sex complicates things more when you have it early because unlike for guys, women are much more likely to develop feelings for the person with whom they are having it. No amount of time spent with a person will “make them right for you”. You are right about that – but delaying sex with them helps us women to see that more easily and to get out sooner when we realize that we’re wasting our time. Women can’t separate their feelings as easily as men can. You can have sex with many women and not develop attachments emotionally – most women don’t have that capability.
beth says
Point of fact, the emotional part of MEN’s brains become extremely active during sex while the emotional part of WOMEN’s brains show zero activity during orgasm.
While it’s possible the part controlling emotions in a woman’s brain may have a lot of activity during sex (similar to men’s) then suddenly shut off during orgasm. It’s highly unlikely and doesn’t really make sense.
Thus, it’s extremely plausible that
1. Women actually don’t become attached as a result of sex but due to other factors.
2. Men are statistically more likely to become emotionally attached as a result of sex.
Evan Marc Katz says
That makes perfect sense – except for what we observe here in reality.
Lily says
I am extremely selective and rarely go on a second date. Twice in my post-divorce mid-life dating phase I had sex on the second date. Both of these men fell in love with me within a few weeks and wanted to marry me. I slept with them early to see if I liked having sex with them. I refuse to marry a sexual mismatch… Life is just too short!
Nads says
Akay,
Thank for sharing your story and thoughts. You actualy validate Evan’s advice and points. I think your behaviour/ attitude fits parts of the catagories of people that those seeking long term loving relationships are trying to weed out.
SparklingEmerald says
Akay @20 – The purpose of “waiting” for women (and these days that usually means any point after date 1) is not to try to become attracted to a man they are NOT attracted to, but to evaluate if the man really wants HER of if he just wants SEX. To try and figure out if the guy has made his 2 second judgement that she is not “girlfriend worthy”, but will date her just to hump her and dump her. In other words, the point of waiting is to weed out guys LIKE YOU. Not 100% foolproof, but it probably does save some heartache down the road.
Danaris says
I think the headline for the original post should have been Why Women Should Make Themselves Wait for Sex if they want long term relationships. The reason to wait isn’t just so the man can qualify as woman as a girlfriend, it’s also so that the woman can qualify a man as a boyfriend. In my mind if the interaction between a man and a woman is a profile on a dating site, a couple of emails, and a couple of telephone charts, neither the woman nor the man really know each other by date 1, 2, or 3. Instead of being annoyed that men need time to determine if a woman is right for a long term relationship, women should do the same — take time to learn about the man’s character and what makes him tick before deciding if HE is long term relationship material. So, waiting isn’t just to keep a woman from getting hurt or used. At least that’s how I see it.
henriette says
Agreed! It’s a win/win situation.
Akay says
@SparklingEmerald
Unfortunately you are wrong. The only men you will weed out with this strategy are amateurs. Trust me we, men, have evolved. We know that you are playing the number game. I used the schedule several dates per day to fulfill my quota. Every date we collect more data about you and we will appeal to you better in the next date. More dates just mean you are walking into a trap.I have better strategies for you. If you are definitely not into fulfilling your sexual needs use your gut on the first date. Abort immediately if you cannot say “this guy is very impressive”. Many women try the next dates out of desperation. As I said pros will tune their approach with new data and your weaknesses. Second hint is that we try to keep the dates short as we know you are playing the number game. Dinner, movie, a night walk is not good for us. I try to have a short dinner with one woman, then a movie with the other in the same night. Unfortunately ideas presented in this site are a few generations old. It is a totally different game now.
Evan Marc Katz says
You’re basically weeding yourself out by being a impatient, cheap and selfish. Sounds like my strategy is working just fine.
SparklingEmerald says
Akay @ 23 – I don’t know why you said “If you are definitely not into fulfilling your sexual needs use your gut on the first date.”. My sexual needs are multi-dimensional and can be satisfied when there is a heart & mind connection. You make it sound like every man on the planet is a selfish bastard preying on women’s emotions & weaknesses to trick them into thinking there is more than just sex. I came to Evan’s blog looking for help getting back into dating and relationships after nearly 25 years of being married. Reading blog entries from guys like you, make me think I should just forget it, because why would I want to associate with such selfish conniving jerks ? Evan seems like the exception rather than rule, and he is taken. His advice seems to be geared to finding the relationship oriented guy, but I am beginning to think it is like trying to find a four leaf clover.
I’ve weeded out the booty callers, perhaps they are just “amateurs”, but I think my gut serves me pretty well. Short infrequent dates, such as the strategy you describe above, is one of the main reasons I say “next”.
I did say my method wasn’t 100% foolproof, but luckily, I haven’t run into any ‘pros” yet.
Dora says
It beats me – How you ,some, women could be so narrow minded and honestly -stupid..? Why hitting on Evan time and time again over something he NEVER said or meant…
Evan is Absolutely RIGHT in what he is saying – is simple – is black or white. And he is the White one,the light,the help,the confidence,the future and all.
Thank you Evan!!! Thank you for being there and thank you for all you do and say,because is the RIGHT thing.As to the ones who slam on you about things never meant or said – e,well -ignore them,do not get offense, you do not need to defend yourself,because you are absolutely right and because you can never make everyone happy.!!!
Is so irritating to me to read all that Di-sec-ting of every coma Evan use and try to find the bad,black meaning that is not there..uuhhhhh..If you do not like it – do not read it,do not do it- simple. Why wasting everyones elses time to read your crap,women…??!!!
AllHeart says
While I wish things were different, it truly is best if a woman waits to have sex.
There are other options around this. Simply find men you do not want to consider for a serious relationship, and vice versa (everyone should be on the same page), and sleep with them. Then date the men you want to have relationships with, and wait to have sex with them. It’s not *fair* that men easily use women for sex and at the same time dismiss them for sex as well, but you can find ways around it.
Unfortunately, we still live in a world where men don’t have much honor when it comes to how they treat women in regards to sex. Our world doesn’t place any expectations on men to control themselves sexually. It’s basically a free-for-all of male fantasy and desire that even today, women must conform to in some ways. Naturally, this makes things easy for men. They don’t have to take responsibility for themselves when they can make women be the ones to take the responsibility. Personally, for me, nothing is more attractive then men that are both discriminating in heart and body when it comes to the female gender.
On top of all that, men have allowed sex to be a barometer of their worth. Which is another big reason, and one that needs to be explored, about why men will use women sexually to feed their egos. Although, it’s really a false sense of self.
So while I agree with Evan’s advice here, and think this is one of the best posts I’ve seen, I’m not going to turn a blind eye to what should be changed between men an women. And I will advise women to use their own tools around such things such as simply finding men to sleep with while they date the men they really want to be with. Until men are ready to be more fair about the whole thing.
Men need to take more pride and responsibility with their own bodies. They need to be more discriminating about who they let sexually into their lives. I’m not looking to be with a man who I have to be his gatekeeper. But until that day, don’t sleep with the men who you want to be in a committed relationship with.
Rocks says
Hi Evan, to your point below:
[The fact that there are women who think that they HAVE to put out because OTHER women put out is as much of a problem as “slut shaming”. I’m giving those women who DON’T want to put out a script on how to message it, in a confident and effective fashion. That is MY point — even if it’s not the original video’s point.]
In my opinion t’s not an internal expectation that a woman SHOULD put out because other women (her competitors) are putting out; instead, in my *extensive* field experience, I’ve found if you DON’T put out guys just move on to those who WILL put out. In Neverneverland, then the woman would just wait until a guy comes along who will respect her boundaries and the sexual relationship would progress when both parties are ready, but as the saying goes about the needle in the haystack…
Evan Marc Katz says
Nope. It ain’t Neverland. If a guy can’t respect your decision to make him hold out for a few weeks until you know each other better, he’s not your guy. Plain and simple. The ones who move on are – by definition – not that into you or not husband material. So there’s no point in worrying about them. Almost all of my clients follow my directive to screen out guys who want sex without commitment and almost all of them find guys who are willing to wait for this reasonable amount of time. Why would they wait? Because they LIKE you and it’s a small price to pay for what they get in return.
Lynn (the other one!) says
Hi Evan,
I’ve been ‘sexclusive’ using your advice from the blog, WHD, and FTOO. Getting more skilled at it, I think. Certainly much more comfortable about being clear about the boundary and not feeling offended when men push for sex. Thank you for that.
Last night was yet another opportunity, first one in awhile, and mostly now I’m curious and amused by the responses and really ducking around the core issue. “I want to invest in an LTR with you so once we have sex I’ll delete my profile.” and “If we don’t have sex then you won’t see me again, no use having a relationship” and “What is this silliness? What did you go on a dating site for anyway? What am I supposed to do with this? (pointing to his obvious erection)”. On second date, 2 days after meeting and a great first date where he was a total gentleman.
Yeah, that’s the way to my heart! It’s not even worth feeling shocked or perturbed by.
I feel like writing a blog post called “Your erection is not my responsibility”. Next!
Lynn (the other one!) says
p.s. And to save me any more trouble, this morning he sent me a pissy email about how he’d been unable to sleep all night and he wouldn’t be seeing me again. No kidding.
Evan, I’ve learned to examine my own behavior and see what I can learn from it and if there are any patterns. What I’m starting to notice is that some men seem to mistake warm and welcoming (basically following your advice to be a great date) for an ‘now open for sex’ sign hung on me. I feel kinda sad about that. Are most women so cold and unresponsive that I really stand out so much? I want to say, don’t take my warmth and welcome too personally, I’m this way with everyone.
AllHeart says
Hi Rocks – I’ve had guys leave me because I didn’t put out the second *they* wanted it. And I’ve had guys date me, enjoy me, get to know me, as we built emotional intimacy before we slept together.
Guess which group appreciates women more? Duh! The group of men that knows that building a relationship with a woman is more then sex. The group of men that know and value a woman beyond sex. Men that truly know how to value women show it in their actions.
Guess which guys I’m grateful for? Both. First group of guys showed me who they were. So did the second. Guess who I had more respect for? You’re a smart guy, I’m sure you can figure it out.
If you are ditching a lady because other women out there will give you sex, you can bet your cute little silverdollar bottom that they will be happy to see you go. Now you might be thinking, “Her lose, I’m going to go bang a woman that will let me.” But here is the secret…she doesn’t think it’s her lose at all. She’s happy to see you go. You’re not a “catch” to her. You’re a user.
In dating, it takes a long time sometimes before a man is willing to be commited to just you. A man wants to get to know you before he makes that kind of commitment. Guess what? Alot of women want to wait before we make a sexual commitment.
You know what’s so screwy about dating now-a-days? Ultimately most people date to find “that special someone”. Yet they jump into bed before they develop the foundation of the relationship. You know what happens when you got no foundation? Your house sinks.
Rocks says
Hi Evan,
Thank you for your reply. I don’t disagree with any of your points, however, what I’m saying is I’ve tried that strategy — it is the strategy I believe in and feel most comfortable with — however the net result was going for THREE.WHOLE.YEARS. without penetration. I attracted many men, was sexual and communicated my boundaries and the rationale for those boundaries. The answers I invariably got were “smell ya later” or “why does it have to be so defined, can’t we just do it and see what happens from there” or “I’d love to be your fuck buddy”. Um, No.
In that time I saw many friends couple off, with men who waited or didn’t wait for them (ie they had sex right away). Soooo?
So. What I’ve decided is to do is be a bad-ass at life motherfucker and come what may, or may not, at least I’ve swung for the fences. Unfortunately that also means a lot of no fucking around ;-(
@AllHeart: I’m a female. Also agree with all of your points.
Marie says
@Rocks – just because you’ve had extensive field experience doesn’t mean you’re a good dater. Quantity does not equal quality in the relationship world. If you’re going through a lot of men and are still not finding the supposed needle in a haystack you should re-evaluate your approach. You may very well be attracting the same wrong kind of guys over and over again because clearly it’s pretty common for quality men to wait. I’ve seen that over and over again. The fact that you have not experienced this just tells me that something in your approach is not sending out the right signals to attract quality men who respect women’s boundaries. It’s you, not them.
Rocks says
*I forgot “you’re not Jewish” and “you’re too old to have kids”. I was 33. He was 34.
e-Cyrano as in de bergerac? My name is Roxanne, haha.
Rocks says
@Marie,
Sure, I’ve considered that and own that my confidence level in the distant past was not so great. Like I said, lots of different reasons can be pinpointed, including but not limited to spending all of my 20’s in school. But what I have seen is women who tend to be pretty bitchy to guys are the ones who end up keeping their guys, paradoxically. I don’t like to be bitchy, I like to be happy.
I really only know how to be who I am. I have friends & family who love me dearly, I make connections with people, I take care of myself, I am adventurous and have passionate interests. So if that’s not attractive then I don’t know the answer. Anyway that’s my 2c & the best I can do is just to keep hope alive I guess. Thanks for the input!
Sabine says
I’ve read parts one and two and I agree that you should wait for committment for sex. I don’t see how you can have REAL passion and intimacy without it. All the waiting to see if he calls…ruins any eperience if your not committed. When you are committed, you can have the great sex with passion and intimacy not worrying if he’ll call b/c he already estabilished his feelings and he already calls. Don’t sell yourself short, it’s not worth the heartache.
Goldberry says
And hopefully you will consider, Evan, that waiting until marriage is also reasonable. Interesting how you’ve set an arbitrary boundary (“commitment”) that is equally determined by the cultural lowest common denominator. (Which by the way has led to people being stuck in committed relationships and/or living together for years while waiting for marriage to someday happen.) If a woman believes it’s not moral to have sex outside of marriage, her “permanent commitment” boundary is just as reasonable as the “commitment” rule.
Evan Marc Katz says
Goldberry, since <http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2006-12-19-premarital-sex_x.htm” rel=”nofollow”>95% of people believe in premarital sex, while you may feel that waiting until marriage may be “reasonable,” very few others would agree.
Goldberry says
But it can’t be inherently unreasonable since 95% of people before the sexual revolution thought it was just fine… In other words, majority opinion isn’t the arbiter of reasonableness.
Jenn says
This shouldn’t come as any surprise, but I agree 100% with Goldberry. Evan, you seem to have contradicted yourself a bit here. On the one hand, you say not to get frustrated when 95% of the guys who write to us on dating sites aren’t “the right ones”. So it would follow that we waiters-till-marriage should not care that 95% of people don’t share our commitment to our faith, because they are not the right ones for us if that is a deal-breaker for them. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter to me if 95% of guys I meet won’t wait because I’m only looking for one. The right guy will not mind waiting that much. If he can see himself spending the rest of his life with me, what harm will a year or two of waiting do him when we’ll have the rest of our lives to have sex?
Evan Marc Katz says
No contradiction. The difference is that I tell my clients to hold out for 5% of men. You’re suggesting that you hold out for 5% of 5%. (.0025) Your husband isn’t just going to be nice, smart, funny, warm, successful, relationship oriented, cute, and communicative but ALSO willing to wait for marriage before having sex. You’ve got a numbers problem, my friend.
Buck25 says
@ Goldberry,
“…since 95% of people before the sexual revolution thought it was just fine..”
Uh-huh. So “majority opinion” then is just fine with you as a test of “inherent reasonableness” (because it accords with what you want?), but “majority opinion” now is not (because you don’t like it?)?. I see. Intellectually dishonest. Fail.
“Majority opinion then” was the result of a less educated population being socialized into compliance with standards primarily based in repression, conformity, and willful ignorance of human psychology and sexuality, combined, of course, with blind allegiance to dogma. I can’t say I find that a particularly good recommendation for the supposed “reasonableness” of same. At least majority opinion currently, (since those thoroughly discredited ideas and institutions lost influence they never merited in the first place), is based on knowledge and verifiable empirical facts, not supposition, unsupported opinion, emotional appeal, or anyone’s wishful thinking. By the by, “appeal to authority”, whatever else it is, is NOT rational argumentation.
Adhere to institutional religiosity if it comforts you. Just be aware of its long and consistent track record of repression, hypocrisy, acquisition and maintaining of institutional power by whatever means, to include lying, obfuscation, deliberate fraud, murder, torture, war and conquest (all excused as being for the good of the souls of its victims, of course), willfully and systematically shaming and degrading its own adherents (the better to keep them obedient, controlled, emotionally weak and dependent) and while you’re at it, don’t forget misogyny (quite a few centuries worth; witch hunting, anyone?), and turning a blind eye to pedophile clerics). This is a human rights record worthy of the worst secular regimes ever created by man, and if my words are a scathing indictment, they are more than merited; if there could be a greater, uglier abuse of the perfectly good gift of human spirituality, I cannot imagine what it might be. If that’s harsh, that’s how it looks from the outside. Believe what you wish, but don’t be so surprised and indignant when the rest of us don’t see it your way.
Goldberry says
This debate lingered in my mind overnight, and when I woke up I realized why it upset me so much. Evan, when someone buys into the message/standard that it’s not reasonable for men to wait more than a few months for sex, they also buy into the corresponding message to women, which is: “You think you’re in control of your sexuality? Hah! No one will wait until it’s really comfortable for you because you have a permanent commitment. No one cares how many sexual partners you have to have before finding ‘the One’. Basically your body isn’t worth that much, so why worry about giving it away to get some progress in a relationship? Sex doesn’t really matter — except when a guy really has to have it. So just do it. Everyone else is. If you don’t use your body as a bargaining chip no one will want a real relationship with you because you’re not worth their time otherwise.” This is the antithesis of empowerment. This is how the quest for “sexual freedom” eventually led to servitude.
Thanks for your comment, Jenn.
starthrower68 says
I do not want to come off as condemning toward people who choose not to wait, or are not people of faith; but those who do stand on those values should not be surprised or caught off guard when we are rejected for those values. We are a “peculiar people”. So when the culture at large calls us odd for living the way we do, they are not wrong.
tamara says
I’m glad I stumbled on your blog. What you say is So true, I figured that out years ago. I’ve actually only slept with one of the many many guys I dated over the past 5 years, and every single one of the relationships I had over that time period was ended by Me. Last year, both guys I dated proposed to me within 4 months (cross my heart, it’s true). Men treat you like a princess when you don’t sleep with them. Ok some feminists will tell me I’m losing out on the pleasure of sex which I have as much right as men to enjoy, but to each her own, I prefer being showered with love and affection as opposed to having sex. When I finally accept a proposal one day when I have Mr Right, I can have all the sex I want to after all. 🙂
There are some women who think the guy won’t wait around, well they’re wrong, I can attest to that. Of course u still have to be the best you can be, like working on your career, keep your appearance attractive, stay up to date with current affairs so that you sound intelligent etc. And if you work on all that, And don’t jump into bed with him, men will see you as their dream girl and someone worth pursuing. It seems so commonsensical I can’t believe so many women don’t believe it.
I’ve subscribed, can’t wait to read more great articles 🙂
Paula says
I have to comment that its really hard to strike the balance by letting things run a relaxed course and not pressuring the man into vowing commitment before sleeping together. I thought I’d done it all by the book ~ your book!! Six dates. Foreplay on four. all going really well. made it clear I didn’t do casual sex. seventh date slept together. one text. then nothing. ok its only been a few days but seems it was casual after all. for him. I feel duped. there’s nothing to stop a guy from saying he’ll commit and then baling after anyway. how is a girl to know? this is the third dating experience I’ve had since leaving a 21 year marriage. all three rubbish. I’m not sure men are worth all this deception!!!
SparklingEmerald says
[email protected] – I just can’t get on board with literally teasing a commitment from a guy while his hand is roaming somewhere south of my navel. I am very much into male led relationships, and that includes the male initiating any and all talks about our level of commitment. To bring it up when he’s got a boner and is reaching for a condom, doesn’t seem male led to me, and I wouldn’t trust his answer anyway. If I told a man, in the heat of passion as he was attempting to slide into the home plate, “I can’t have sex with a man who doesn’t even know my middle name and has never bought be a gift” he would most likely google the info on me, run to the dollar store, and come back with a gift bag addressed to “Sparkling GREEN Emerald” and then say, “NOW can we have sex”. If I wait until he’s 3/4 of the way to sex and then bring up the “sexlusivity” talk, I won’t trust his answer anyway.
I have been involved with men who brought up our commitment level (as in wanting one) when we were at the heavy kissing, but nothing more, phase. With my second ex-husband, I don’t think he specifically brought up being exclusive, but he was introducing me as his girlfriend, and he had built me a hope chest and fixed the brakes on my car, so maybe it was a tad presumptious, but at that point I was assuming exclusivity.
Lynn (the other one!) says
SparklingEmerald you’ve nailed a couple of my experiences. Figuring out optimal timing to lay out (ha ha) the sexclusive boundary right now is trial and error for me. Certainly I’m more comfortable with (and glad for) the boundary. Timing has been awk-WARD a couple of times 🙂
But the part I need to stress more is the “figuring out what we BOTH want”. It’s not solely his decision. Recently I went out with someone I thought initially showed promise but on Date 2 when he referred to me as his girlfriend I was startled and uneasy. I wasn’t at all sure I wanted him as a boyfriend and in fact had a date with another guy lined up for the next day.
Mutual! Mutual! LOL it’s not just a decision by one of us.
AllHeart says
Paula, you’re mistake is picking an abitrary number to have four play or sex. You ultimately got to do what is best for you. You ultimately have to make choices that perserve and respect your personal well-being so that you don’t end up feeling badly like you are now. If that means sex on the 6th date, then well okay. Or, if it means sex on the 20th..again okay. You can’t do the wrong thing with the right guy.
Pay closer attention to how the men you are seeing talk about women in general, how do they talk about their Moms, their female friends, other women, pay attention to if they spend alot of time looking at other women, how do they talk about sex, how do they bring up the subject of sex with you. You can learn alot about a man’s values this way. I know I have. And I’ve saved myself from some real users. Continue to be honest about what you are looking for and be direct enough to say, “If you are looking for sex, I’m not the woman for you.”
Joy says
I agree. I am divorced. My husband left 5 years ago. I didn’t sleep with anyone ( Almost died, lol), until just a few weeks ago. A friend of mine that I have always been very attracted to ( and didn’t have a clue about how I felt) recently became available. He called me and we went out for coffee. I told him how I felt and he told me that he knew about me not being easy ( my word not his). It made him feel honored that I would be interested in him. We started talking in October and I finally was intimate with him a few weeks ago…almost 6 months later. He did work for it too. This guy is not average, he is GORGEOUS! I mean…stinking hot! He has the Body, face, brains, just everything. He even owns a very successful business. He didn’t have to treat me special and work hard to “get laid” if that’s all he wanted. I’m positive there are MANY women that would give it out to him in a sec, but he did work hard for “it”. That made ME feel special. So, whether or not we go all the way to marriage I don’t know, BUT I do know he respects me. =) He confides in me with his deepest thoughts and feelings. He has told me he was “tired of trash” and that he was honored to be with a woman of my “caliber”. I think you’re right and if we want something deep and meaningful then we have to make that evident in our lives and to the men around us. He brings me coffee to work and he fixes my car, cooks me dinner. We go hiking and fishing together…it’s awesome. It’s an amazing feeling and I’m glad I didn’t give in to all the guys who came calling. =)
Holly says
Joy, you are my idol. Thank you for sharing this! It gives me so much hope!!!
SparklingEmerald says
Joy – If you are happy in this relationship then I’m happy for you. If you don’t mind me asking what did your guy mean when he said he was “tired of trash” ?
Did he mean the girls he slept with where they didn’t make him “work for it ” ? Or did he mean something else ?
Holly says
Wow, Evan, my brain is popping right open. I see it! It’s like the retrospect and the perspective of this article have thrown my entire relationship with my ex-boyfriend both into technicolor and THX sound all at once. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!! I get it!
N says
I just want to say thank you. thank you for everything you have said. you have put so many things into perspective for me as a 22 year old. I will easily take back any nasty comment another woman has posted on here, just to let you know that you have helped me. I cannot give you enough thank yous.
all the best,
N
Leslie says
I didn’t have sex until I was 26, which according to some of my friends is a really long time. The reason why I didn’t was because my college boyfriend kept pressuring me to have sex and I wouldn’t give it to him, so he dumped me to be with someone else who would. While I was extremely heart broken (it was my first boyfriend), I couldn’t imagine how much more heartbroken I would be if I actually DID have sex with him. I made a decision then and there I wouldn’t lose my virginity to just anybody and would wait to have sex with any future boyfriends to ensure they were committed to me and a relationship.
My most recent relationship (which has been my longest) has lasted two years. I told myself I would wait X amount of time before I had sex with him. I didn’t tell him the amount of time I was planning to wait and he never pressured me for sex though I could tell he really wanted to (he’s a man!) When I eventually did decide to sleep with him, it was on my own terms and it was 10x better than I thought it was because I was ready (and I actually did it before my pre-determined time period) and I knew he wouldn’t bolt.
I realize everyone has different views on sex, which is fine. Some people love having sex just to have sex and more power to them. I’m just not one of those people and I don’t have anything against those who are.
Jessica Holting says
Evan,
I 100% agree with your advice as it is the best advice for me. One thing I would like to point out is that there are so many men who simply don’t like women making them wait for sex and will therefore plant confusion into the minds of women, complaining that women are trying to “manipulate them into a relationship by denying them sex.” Ladies if a guy talks to you like that then he is trying to manipulate you! Women don’t delay sex to manipulate men into having a relationship with them and we are also making ourselves wait too. Men are free to pursue us or not, regardless of what we do. Women delay sex to weed out the men who are not interested in having a relationship with them but only want to have sex with them. Self-respect for women who want a relationship means they don’t want to give their sex to a man who does not care for them, will not love them and will leave them alone after sex. A woman who wants a relationship will deny herself unfulfilling sex that makes her feel bad or devalued afterwards in favor of the best sex ever which is sex with someone she loves and loves her back. This is not manipulating men. This is about women respecting themselves and their bodies and being true to what they want from a man. I know I want a relationship. I know I want love. I know that meaningless sex will make me feel used, bad about myself and unfulfilled and that to have sex with someone I love and someone who loves me back is the best sex ever and the only kind I want. I do not feel that any sex is better than no sex and I will not settle. In fact I choose celibacy over sex with someone who I don’t love or sex with someone who does not love me or worse, does not even like me. So I don’t have to settle for less if I don’t want less, and if some men want to act like big babies and vilify us for “trying to manipulate them into a relationship” then the best thing to do is walk away from them. And you can see how it got to this point of men acting like spoiled brats and accusing us of being these awful, manipulative women for not giving them instant gratification and ignoring our own needs. Because women have lowered the bar for men. It’s time to raise it back up again. That said I know not all men are like this but I had to rant because I feel our hook-up culture is causing many to be confused. The truth is unless we wait for sex how will we differentiate between the guys who really like us and the ones who just want us for sex? It’s impossible!
SparklingEmerald says
Jessica @ 42 – What you are saying is so true. I don’t know if guys actually say such nonsense to women IRL (you are trying to manipulate me) but I know some of them like to rant about it on the blogs.
Pre-relationship, I am not “withholding” sex from a main. I am REFRAINING from sex. As is my right, as is every woman’s right. That’s not being manipulative. The guy can walk right out the door if he’s unhappy with a woman exercising a little restraint. Or if he wants NSA, and she won’t give it to him, he is free to pursue a woman who will.
I feel like this baby boomer generation (of which I am a part) has started this whole sloppy hanging out and hooking up, go with the flow, no strings attached, let’s not label this, let’s just enjoy the moment, f**k first, ask questions later mentality. And it only seems to be getting worse. Sometime I feel like my generation owes the women of this generation an apology. (The men seem to love this hang-out & hook-up culture)
I don’t want to go back to the so-called good old days, when women were “slut shamed”, but nor do I like the other extreme of prude shaming. Not only is it now shameful for a woman to want marriage, it is shameful for her to even want a relationship with whoever she is sleeping with. (and calling women who want that “manipulative” IS shaming them, or attempting to)
Maria Almudena says
Jessica and SparklingEmerald, I just want to say that I agree with you both completely, and thank you for expressing it all so well. We women need to take back our sexual choice. Enough of confusing servitude to physiological urges (ours or men’s) with “liberation”.
Love says
I agree 100% with your advice Evan. People who keep arguing with you can continue to do it their way and we’ll see how far that gets them. You are the dating coach for a reason! Personally, I don’t need to be convinced because I’ve already experienced this. Three dates is simply not enough time to get to know a person. For me, its not even about waiting for commitment so much as getting to know the man himself. In my experience after the first date the guy volunteers to remove his dating profile and tells me “I’ve found what I’m looking for… I don’t need to look any further”. Its very easy to get sucked into that too. The guys clearly states he wants commitment and it seems like everything is perfect, as if the two of you are on the same page. He says the right things, showers you with affection and attention, etc. So you sleep with him and then find out x,y or z about him and its a deal breaker and its over. I’ve experienced that several times and it was very painful. I’m not going through that again. It’s too easy for people to disguise themselves and hide things for the first three dates. So now I date them for 2-3 months to see the REAL person and evaluate whether they are boyfriend material; whether there are things about them that are deal breakers, things tend to reveal themselves once you’ve been dating someone for a while. Yes, when you have this standard the guys only looking for sex vanish very quickly; I have experienced this as well. That is OK. I stick to my guns no matter what. I’m one of the women looking for the 5% of men who will fit well with me; I’m very picky and sometimes it gets frustrating. I get hit on frequently and could have a boyfriend all the time if I didn’t have high standards. But at least I’ve cut down on the number of heartbreaks and disappointments I was experiencing dating. That is a good thing because I feel I have enough in me now to continue to put myself out there and continue looking for a worthy partner.
jan says
I believe Evan’s advice is great advice for a specific group of women: those who can’t handle a man leaving her after sex because it lessens her chances of being hurt by a ‘hit it and quit it’ guy and somewhat protects her heart.
To be clear I’m not referring to women who are a little annoyed/upset after he never calls then move on. I’m referring to women who quite literally can’t emotionally handle casual sex and become extremely distraught (perhaps depressed) because of the man leaving.
While it’s somewhat of an assumption that women will become extremely distraught over a ‘hit it and quit it’, and it’s true some women looking for a relationship become a bit upset when the guy leaves, realistically most women get over it and move on pretty quickly.
For women who don’t fall into the aforementioned category, I personally believe that having sex early is the best way to go. Here’s why:
Generally speaking, there are 2 types of men out there: those who have zero interest in a relationship and those who are at the very least open to one even if they’re not necessarily looking for one.
The first type can be broke into 2 categories: those who will leave as soon as they realize they aren’t getting sex quick enough and those who like a challenge and will pursue a woman making her believe he’s committed up until the point he gets what he wants (luckily these men are rare..at least in my experience).
When it comes to the first category, a woman may as well have a bit of fun, get hers, and then move on. The second is a different animal but tends to be extremely rare and is the exception not the rule despite what some people may think.
Either way making him wait won’t cause him to miraculously become committed. He’ll either leave ASAP or he’ll wait until you’re committed (and believe him to be as well) then hurt you even more by leaving.
As far as the second type of guy goes, my opinion is that if he likes you enough to want a relationship with you after you make him wait then most likely he’d like you enough to continue to see you if you had decide to have sex sooner rather than later. Most emotionally stable men don’t like a woman enough to pursue her for more than a couple dates (that’d put him in the first category) then suddenly stop liking her/lose respect for her because she had sex with him.
In the case of men who would pursue a relationship with a woman if she makes him wait but would look down on her and no longer find her desirable if she has sex early with him, that sounds like a man who holds others to a higher moral/ethical standard than he holds himself even though the other person made no commitment to be held to a higher standard.
If that’s the case then women need to ask themselves if they really want to be in a relationship with someone who holds her to a higher level of morality than he holds himself. That doesn’t sound like a man with integrity to me.
To sum up this novella, Evan’s advice is great for women who emotionally can’t handle a one night stand/sex without commitment. It weeds out most men who are looking for a hit it and quit it thus sparing her feelings.
However, it’s irrelevant to other women b/c a man who would pursue a relationship if he has to wait will likely pursue one even if he didn’t have to wait so waiting is rather pointless.
Finally, this opinion is referring to women who desire a relationship but can handle it if sex doesn’t turn into a relationship. If you’re a woman with zero interest in a relationship then whether or not a man is looking for a relationship is irrelevant. Simply be up front and honest about your intentions and go get some.
Evan Marc Katz says
Just a note: “Either way making him wait won’t cause him to miraculously become committed.” The goal of making him wait isn’t to miraculously make him commit. It’s to buy yourself time to get a sense of whether he’s truly boyfriend material – instead of sleeping with him and keeping your fingers crossed.
SparklingEmerald says
Jan @ 44 – “Generally speaking, there are 2 types of men out there: those who have zero interest in a relationship and those who are at the very least open to one even if they’re not necessarily looking for one. “
Jan – Do you think there are men out there who are actually LOOKING for a relationship ? I think there is a category of men who are actually LOOKING for a relationship but are open to FWB, ONS and other kinds of casual sex while they search. Also known as the “placeholder” girl. I think waiting also eliminates you from being the “placeholder”. Sometimes being the “placeholder” can actually drag on for years. He becomes the boyfriend who can’t quite commit to marriage. Then when that r’ship ends, he marries his next girlfriend within a year.
In the case of men who would pursue a relationship with a woman if she makes him wait but would look down on her and no longer find her desirable if she has sex early with him, that sounds like a man who holds others to a higher moral/ethical standard than he holds himself even though the other person made no commitment to be held to a higher standard.
I totally agree with you on that ! I think if there wasn’t this double standard, women wouldn’t take it so hard when they run into “use ’em and lose ’em types”, although I do think our female biology plays a big part. Trying to separate nature from nurture in human nature will be a never ending debate. Some say that there is a biological basis for men and their double standards. OK, I get that men are driven to “spread their seed” and that the sex drive in men is extremely high, but I really don’t get the biological imperative to hold women in contempt when they give them what they want, what they pressure us for, what they beg and plead for, what they manipulate for, for what they have numerous books, boot camps and web based learning centers for. All these lessons in how to pick up girls for instant sex, all so you can try and turn them into an object of scorn. (Then complain that all American women are sluts, and try and import a mail order virgin or near-virgin from another country)
I really have little patience for men who pursue women sexually with a vengeance, and then refer to them as “sluts” or “whores” after the deed. Hippocrits. Even Evan says some men are sexual hippocrits, (although EMK definitely is not)
Cindy says
Geez Louise I’m sorry you’ve had to defend your position rather extensively. I’m a girl with a degree and a career, and nothing about what you’ve said on the economics of sex has offended me. I’ve been through the hurt and learned the hard way, with some help from those like you. With more prudence in how I handle men, I’ve been much happier, even without the sex, because like you’ve said, this economic strategy weeds out the dull from the shiny, and in the end I feel better able to choose high quality men. And it works! Also I feel better about myself being around men who treat me well! Men and women, sl***ts and j**rks alike, we rise to the occasion to be ladys and gents, but we must take equal parts in challenging the other sex to be the best version of themselves. Thanks for the post and posts like these, and also thanks for putting your personal stories into it!
CHL says
2questions: 1) why is ‘allowing men to explore your body within boundaries you are comfortable with’ is not considered as having sex? Are we in Clinton’s definition of sex? Last time I checked it was called cock teasing and barely differs from false promises
2) still not clear why EMK doesn’t agree with Rori Raye’s concept of circular dating, can somebody explain?
Chloe says
What’s wrong with following the bible and what God says about sex? Have you ever read the book of Solomon? God created sex and it is suppose to be within the boundaries of marriage. There is nothing wrong with following God’s guidelines for sex and waiting until two people are married. It’s about having a relationship with God and how He designed it.
Lily says
Been there, done that. Had bless than ten orgasms during a 30-year-marriage. A very sad sexual mismatch. Don’t do it.
anon says
I’ve had terrible sex outside of marriage, what’s your point? Waiting till marriage doesn’t necessarily mean it will be bad. I agree with Chloe. I know a few ppl that were exclusive for a few months, had sex, BC failed, woman’s pregnant and she ends up raising the kid alone. Having sex with someone you’ve only know for a few months is stupid. You could create a child with that person, and then what? Most guys in that situation are going to run. That’s the problem with using sex for recreation or a trial run.
Yvette says
Dear Evan,
Thank you so much for this blog. I skimmed through the comments, and I read a few, but I can’t read all of them because, like Sierra, I can’t believe how your message is being misinterpreted.
This blog helped me to understand why I’m more comfortable waiting to have sex, and why I need to stick to that. I can’t tell you how many people say, “you only live once,” “can’t believe you haven’t had sex in so long! Girl, go have some fun.” I’ve taken this advice, and it just doesn’t work, for me.
Everyone is different, and I do not judge anyone that can have sex on a first date. I’ve just come to realize, that it’s not for me.
Thanks again for this blog post!
~ Yvette
Girlgirl says
Great post, thank you for all the details, it was fun to read and I couldn’t agree more. As someone who has a more traditional view of sex and relationships, it was refreshing to read that there is no shame in waiting. With a large hook up culture on the rise, it’s somewhat alienating since ‘hooking up’ before a commitment feels alien.
Holding out on sex until you are comfortable and 100% sure that the person really wants to give all of themselves to you can be such a great experience and a learning journey. I tried commitment free sex and it turned out sour, me losing respect for the man and never calling back and hurting him, which just added to the crappy feeling.
Thank you again for this post and all your other posts. Your perspective is refreshing, helpful, and compassionate for males and females without bias <3
Thanks Evan
Nicole Horton says
Evan,,,, I really really enjoy your posts !!!! I just brought one of your programs too. I feel that if people don’t agree with what you say , then that is their issue because you are helping women from your heart and telling us the secrets so that we can avoid being hurt again !! This means a lot. I learn something from all of your posts and I hold them dear to my heart. Please keep doing the great job that you are because your posts really seem spot on to me !!! 🙂
Valerie says
Evan, I agree 100% with what you have said. And reading some of these comments makes me wanna palm my face. People are missing your main point here and making it way more complicated and trying to find fault in every detail of what you say. I know from personal experience that every time I have waited to have sex the guy seems to be more serious than when I give it up right away. Granted, I have come a long ways, my past track record I have dated some real D bags. But I have read your book and some of your blog and learned a lot.
Valerie says
I met a guy who I was just going to casually hook up with, But I made him work to see me, even running away from him when he asked to kiss me. He still chased after me and we did end up hooking up. But he said he wanted to take me out and asked if I would like that so I said yes, assuming it was lame BS to get in my pants. He took me on a real date and the next weekend while hooking up, he asked me to be his girlfriend. Is this an exception to the rule? He even stuttered and was like “I’ve never met a girl…. I just really like you” I said yes and we have been together almost a month.
Robin Gregg says
Good job Evan marc Katz i love this advice and all your articles
jenn says
I find your viewpoint to be very refreshing actually. I used to be like the dissenters on here, was all about the casual sex, fwb situations, sex on the first date and although it had led to two long term relationships, I eventually realized that it had nothing to do with me feeling feminine, liberated, sexy or exerting control over my own body. If anything this behavior came from a serious place of LACK! Often I came home from amazing dates or one night stands thinking that it was so good, there was no way he wouldn’t call. Well….more often than not, he disappeared. I switched to casual sex without commitment and I don’t think I have ever felt so cheap in my life. We attract what we are, and if we don’t value ourselves, we will inevitably attract someone who also doesn’t value us. No man is looking for a hooker with a heart of gold, they’re wanting someone worthy of the effort
A few months ago I came to the conclusion that I wasn’t just some piece of ass that exists for some man’s amusement. I did not want to attract this sort of man, but I knew thst I had to face the possibility that many more men would most likely fade away if I exercised any sort of control over my sexual boundaries. And I accepted that because the more men that disappeared, I realized they were just one more step closer to someone that would value me for more than just an orgasm. There is absolutely nothing wrong with waiting until you feel valued and you feel that things will go further, emotionally speaking, if that’s what a woman wants to do. Chances are the bad men will fade and the better ones will stick around. Those of you who have sex with whoever, whenever, don’t be surprised when you want to settle down, only to find that the same men are suddenly MIA at the slightest hint of commitment
Kate says
Evan, I really like your blog. Sometimes your advice is hard to hear but I think you are generally 100% correct.
I have been dating a guy for about 4 weeks and he’s been great, he seems to be really into me but we haven’t talked about exclusivity. Last night he took me dancing and dropped my off at home around 2AM. I told him I was going to say goodnight at the door (he was pretty drunk and I was tipsy). He seemed hurt and maybe a little pissed! He walked away with a shocked look on his face that I didn’t invite him inside to “hang out” (we’re both 28)
I confess I was a little worried about whether or not I would ever hear from him again, but then I thought “hey if he never calls me back then he was probably a JERK” because I don’t think I did anything wrong by not letting him in my apartment to presumably have sex. I read this article and trusted your advice.
WELL he just texted me saying he’ll pick me up tonight for our date (his company holiday party- good sign, right?) everything seems to be fine with us
Anyways I think your advice is 100% right. Don’t fuck him til he’s showing he’s committed if you want a committed relationship! If he likes you, it won’t be a problem rebuffing his advances (not forever, my goal is 6-8 weeks )
Taylor says
Hey Kate, this is great. Glad to hear it’s working out for you! Just curious though, did it all work out in the end? Did you guys become exclusive?
Yogagurl says
Thjank you so much Evan. I feel you are a real angel for women. The paragraph with the “Sometimes…” really opened my eyes. Thank you for spilling the truth so we can make the most empowered choices for ourselves.
sam says
the real source of the problem here is not being addressed. the problem is that we all need to stop teaching men at an early age that if a woman sleeps with you on date one two or three that she is not worth committing too. the women who have made the statement that they are with men they slept with early on in a great committed relationship are with men who do not share this judgement.
Maria says
I don’t think this is necessarily being “taught”, Sam. I think it’s human nature to value more the things you have to work hard for — and to devalue, dismiss, and take for granted the things that we obtain easily and cheaply. And if the cheap and easy happens to be a woman, her body, her sexual favors, the man often gets this subconscious message that she doesn’t value herself, so why should he value her?
Yes, there are people that end up in committed relationships even when the woman made herself instantly sexually available, but I think there are other variables in those situations, rather than what those men had been “taught”.
Incidentally, society gives us all many conflicting messages about sex and relationships, so we are all being “taught” a variety of things. What we choose to believe among those things has to do with our personality, beliefs, the fundamental values we adhere to, our psychosexual makeup, etc.
Jay Dee says
I like what Martha has to say. She places the onus on both the man and the woman. Women need to figure out what they want and when they want it regardless of what the man may want. Men must figure this out as well. I have dated lots of women. My approach immediately is to give off a vibe of “I am not in a hurry” (it works fellas-especially when you really are not in a hurry). Take her out on a beautiful date. Try the theater, the hot new restaurant, some dancing. Take her bowling or to a professional basketball game. Then . . . wait and see what she will do. Lots of kissing of course by this time. Usually, what I have found, whether she is from my circle of professional social outlets or from my inner city social circle, women are ready within 2-3 dates. And to explain that, what I mean is, whether she is college educated and gainfully employed, or if she is a woman with a job and getting by, she isn’t waiting! Even when I have stated I am looking to find that one woman, it is usually 2 or 3 date’s tops. So I am not sure what all this waiting business is about, I have not seen women wait. Who is truly waiting??? Let’s be honest here.
Maria says
I am waiting. Not as any kind of strategy, but because I cannot think of anything worse than having sex with a guy that doesn’t care about me at all. I did this when I was younger a few times, it’s no fun AT ALL. Not for me.
There may not be too many women who wait to have sex between two or three dates, but the situation you are describing tells me that the women you date would be better off waiting. You are describing a plurality of women who don’t wait. They don’t wait, you don’t commit. Easy come, easy go. You are giving even more weight to Evan’s advice with your testimony.
Maria says
I think it all stands in the fear of being alone. People are willing to give up too much or even give up themselves or what they really think about sex in order to get a little bit of affection, is practically like saying “I prefer the half of you, than nothing”, even when they don’t really know the person they’re involving with.
I’m giving this opinion from my own point of view. I’m a pretty successful and independent lady who works on the financial market, speaks 5 languages and…believes in love the way it worked last century. My point isn’t to be cocky, it’s just that is doesn’t make me feel weak or submissive the fact that I like to be won. And that I like to win a guy too. Even when I live a life of a 21 century woman.
I’m 22 and I’ve been single for 3 years, it doesn’t scare me, it doesn’t make me feel like I wanna give up on love or guys. It’s just the fact that if I wanna give and I want to care and I want to “invest” and I want to feel ,I want to do it because I WANT to , not because I NEED to, so if a guy doesn’t call cause I didn’t sleep with him, it’s fine, he has his rights too.
For me that makes all the difference…what I’m willing to give and what I’m willing to receive in order to get in the type of commitment that I want? What kind of relationship do I want? Do I love myself enough to know the line of yield what it’s fair?
Maria Almudena says
Hi Maria
I am now using my middle name so that we can be distinguished from each other, lest we are construed as one Maria arguing with herself! =D
OK, not really here to argue with you (I mostly agree with you) but just to tell you that, in my experience, having sex with a man too early doesn’t provide any bit of affection, and in fact it highlights the lack of it. There is enormous difference in the way a man touches you, kisses you, makes love to you when he loves you or at least cares for you deeply than when you could drop dead and he wouldn’t give a f****. The loneliness, the absence of affection and closeness, the lack of intimacy is compounded and revealed in its full sordidness by meaningless sex.
So, like you, I won’t compromise is how I want to feel before I am ready for physical intimacy with a man. There have to be other kinds of intimacy and closeness before sex happens.
Maria Almudena says
Also adding that, like you, I am a career woman who speaks several languages and has lived in various countries, and I am also a feminist who likes chivalry and courtship. Being a strong and independent woman doesn’t preclude embracing the aspects of traditional gender roles that work for us. It’s all about choice
Brandon says
I am a guy. Now that we have gotten that out of the way, I also have a point of view. Why is waiting for sex bartering? Why is waiting for sex holding out? Why is sex being considered “currency” here? I think that we are looking at it through the wrong lens.
Sex is a PART of a relationship, sex is a neccessity in a relationship. But first, you have to have a relationship. This means, sex before you have a relationship is putting the cart before the horse; so to speak. So stop looking at it as something he wants that she won’t give him. In my experience *MOST* women are not prudes, nor are they cruel. Women want us to connect with them emotionally and treat them like people; not disposable, pleasurable distractions. Men I can assure you that women want sex too. Treat them as a person like they deserve, and you will be amazed. You might find out that there is an intriguing and engaging individual that you can have a lot of fun with outside of the bedroom, and you just might find yourself in the bedroom more often.
That said, I think this is what Evan is trying to point out. Allow me to elaborate:
Two things happen when we meet someone new, physical attraction (a.k.a lust) and emotional attraction. One happens in the pants and is immediate, the other happens in the heart and mind and takes time to develop. Guess which is which. 😉
Lust/physical attraction is the result of a chemical reaction that occurs when we meet that attractive new person. Our brains release a surge of dopamine, norephinephrine, phenylethylamine, testosterone, and adrenaline. These are powerful chemicals, and we can become addicted to them, ever hear of “in love with being in love?” There is MRI research that shows that the human brain on heroin, and the human brain on sex look exactly the same. All of these hormones are also released during sex; and this is where we begin to get to the point. Once the physical need is gratified, and our brains have their fix there is no need for us to stick around. This is the major issue generating a cycle of negative behaviour. Specifically, “hit it and quit it” behaviour.
Emotional intimacy, and attraction also release a very powerful chemical called oxycontin. This is the hormone that is responsible for the intense bond between a mother and her child; need I say more? Unfortunately, for emotional attraction and intimacy to develop you actually have to get to know the person, and this takes TIME. Once emotional attraction is established, when you have sex and gratify your physical needs, all of a sudden there IS a reason to stay.
I believe if we could stop being so dogmatic, we might see what the author is actually saying. Namely, “Overcome your hormones in order to take the TIME to build a foundation for this newfound attraction before you gratify your rather immediate urges. You will build a healthy relationship not founded solely on physical attraction. This will also serve to protect and insulate you from the people out there that are only interested in the chemical fix that comes from gratifying physical attraction.” That is all. No one is saying that you can’t have fun if that’s what you want to do. This advice is specifically geared towards women that are looking for a RELATIONSHIP, and it is very good advice.
So here is the final issue, how long does it take for emotional attraction to develop? What, do I know everything? 😀 I can only share my personal experience. I was emotionally attracted to my wife the very first day that I met her. I sat on a couch and talked to her all night long until she fell asleep on my shoulder and I realized I was talking to myself. She looked so peaceful and content that I sat there until she woke up out of fear of waking her. I knew that she was the one in that moment. On the other hand, it took her quite a while to get there. So, I waited for her and we did a million and one fun things that year. That’s right, I said YEAR. Twelve years later, was it worth it? Uh, yeah, one year was a bargain.
So here is my point, if the two of you are “in to” each other emotionally, then sex should not matter. Let it happen when it happens. If that is in three dates, wow good for you, if you have to wait a year like I did, then so be it. If he/she is worth it then it will not matter. Our society is all about instant gratification, and “I want it now.” However, we ignore the fact that the most valuable things in our lives are those things that we WORK the hardest for and EARN. Most of you will tldr this, and that’s okay. If you never take time, how can you ever have time?
Karmic Equation says
You express yourself like a woman would. So I don’t believe you’re a man. You’re the wife writing as the husband, to try to lend legitimacy to your post. Maybe you’re not even married. It’s my gut feeling though.
Brandon says
You are free to believe what you choose. Interesting that when confronted with something to which you are not accustomed, you immediately throw insults and make assumptions. Based on what criteria I wonder? Based on this falliable logic, were I standing in front of you naked, I would still be a woman because I don’t like sports.
Before anyone jumps in to tell me that I am not being insulted, that only an observation was made, let me stop you. I have been called a liar, and have been told that I am feminine, a woman, somehow less than a man? That first sentence has me confused; how exactly does a woman express herself?
For everyone’s edification, I am married, I am a man (last time I looked down anyway), and I have three children; two girls, one boy ages 11, 7, and 5 respectively. The legitimacy of my post stands on its own merit, neither gaining or losing based on the gender of the author.
I express myself like any man who realizes that every woman out there is someone’s daughter, sister, wife, or mother. I express myself like a man that grew up only wanting a family – something I never had. I express myself like a man who has two daughters, and would wring the neck of any man who did not treat them like the princesses they are. I express myself like a man unconcerned with how social norms, and others believe I should express myself. And maybe that is why I have been married for 12 years, and I have a happy wife. Hopefully, I will one day have two very strong and independent daughters who are able to make wise choices when it comes to dating. Lastly, if I am really lucky, my perspective will rub off on my son.
But, since we are establishing clear and acceptable guidelines on how exactly one should express themselves when they are of the masculine gender, please enlighten me. How should I be expressing myself oh presumptuous one? This mode of thinking is a major reason why men are reluctant to express themselves in a, for lack of a better word, “sensitive” manner. Because then they are feminine, homosexual, sissies, or any other manner of perjorative. I have heard them all, and believe me, other men will attempt to re-educate you if you speak like this in front of them. By the way, they don’t do this in a passive manner either. Fortunately for me, I’m a slow learner, and growing up I could fight.
Maria Almudena says
Hi Brandon. Surely you haven’t lived your whole life as a man and missed that many men have sex in the absence of any emotional attraction? Your whole premise that sex is part of a relationship is radically flawed in many people’s minds. Surely you have heard the expression: “It’s just sex, it doesn’t mean anything.”? Surely you have heard men talk about sex like a physiological need that necessitates release, akin to taking a shit? Or just harmless “fun”? Or some kind of sport or something?
Come on, I agree with you as far as what sex should mean, what it means to me, but the problem is that we are deeply divided as a society when it comes to sexual values, you see? The belief in an emotional dimension to sex is far from universal.
NA says
The selfishness of both men and women these days is really just astounding .
Man – all for themselves and what they can ‘get ‘ out of a man/ woman .
And down the road , these people will end up alone ,lonely and unwanted .
It’s that simple . Love is about giving , and thinking of others . And if you
think you can divorce spirituality from sex and have that work – you are sadly sadly
mistaken .
Maria Almudena says
OK, NA, love is about giving and thinking of others. But we are talking about dating, which is usually a pre-love endeavor. In the absence of love, there has to be some consideration for mutual needs, for what each party expects from the situation and what they are prepared to give in return. Give too much too soon (or love too much too soon) and you will alienate the other person or risk being taken for granted, or for a ride, or down the garden path.
Victoria says
Sometimes I think women and men have evolved and then I read a post like yours and realize they have not really. Men still dominate women. Men say they don’t like women who play games…yet your advice for women to secure a commitment is to play a game. To withhold sex…so that “the man” can feel good about the woman and hold her in high esteem. By withholding sex presumably, he would have taken the time to get to know her therefore making it so he can feel like he might want to have a relationship. If we have sex too soon, we should not expect respect and we should prepare to be subject to all the jerks and the guys who don’t call. We are supposed to take this advice and accept it…why? Do you believer that men call the shots? I thought we were supposed to be equals?
This is how I view sex. If I want to sleep with someone on the first date, the third date or 2 months into a relationship I do it because I feel good about it. I like the man enough to “want ” him sexually, I have enjoyed him to the point that has lead to the point we have become physical. If afterward I feel we had a good physical connection, than my feeling for him has deepened as a result of that experience. I don’t think, as a woman, that I want to know this person less…I think I want to know this person more. The issue I have with what you say is that you do not talk in terms of how a man can win a commitment from a woman…you talk in terms of how a woman should behave to win a commitment from a man. Again, the man is dominant in your story, not an equal. Women can’t be their true self in your story…if they do, they run a much higher risk of rejection. They have to play a game…the biggest game of all. I resent that as a woman.
Here are my pointers for a man to build a relationship with a woman.
1. When you sleep with her show respect…before ,during and after.
2. Feel good about what happened and do not allow yourself to feel bad if you enjoyed it and to make her feel degraded.
3.. Call her the next day and thank her for a great night.
4. Realize that in addition to her sleeping with you when she wanted to..you also were in the room fulfilling your desire, so don’t regard yourself as being in some way superior.
5. If you enjoyed her company prior to having sex and you enjoyed the sex than be open to getting to know her better as a person and a lover.
6 . If you are a guy who does not want to sleep with a woman too soon ,than discuss that with her and if she is on the same page, than wait…there is nothing wrong with that.
7. Do not presume that because you are the “man” it is okay to push a woman’s buttons sexually and then reject her because she did not have the where with all to fend you off!
8. Realize that we live in a modern age where life moves faster than in Victorian times. We do not have to live by the same rules of dating as our parents, grandparents or great grandparents.
9. The way you regard a woman reflects how you regard yourself. If you need to judge her by a different set of rules than you judge yourself when it comes to sex…than you do not regard her as an equal.
10. Above all be honest and don’t play games.
Karl R says
Victoria,
I read your advice.
What about men who don’t want a committed relationship? Are you saying that’s not okay?
What about men who just want casual, no-strings-attached sex? Isn’t your advice counterproductive?
Yes, those questions were rhetorical questions.
Obviously, your 10 pieces of advice don’t apply if a man doesn’t want a relationship. Your advice wasn’t intended to help (or impede) men who only one casual, no-strings-attached sex.
If a man’s goal is to have casual, NSA sex, then his success rate is likely to be the same, regardless of whether or not he follows your 10 pieces of advice.
And if a man doesn’t want a relationship, I’m reasonably certain that you support his decision to avoid relationships.
Victoria said:
“your advice for women to secure a commitment is to play a game. To withhold sex…”
This piece of Evan’s advice doesn’t tell women how to secure a commitment. It tells women how to avoid having casual, NSA sex with men who aren’t committed to them.
There’s a big difference between those two goals. Therefore, the advice is completely different.
In my opinion, most women will have the same number, the same quality and the same duration of committed relationships, regardless of whether or not they follow this advice.
However, the ones who follow this advice will have less casual, NSA sex.
Victoria said:
“If we have sex too soon, we should not expect respect and we should prepare to be subject to all the jerks and the guys who don’t call.”
If you have sex with someone that you don’t know (or barely know), then you have no idea whether he respects you, or whether he is a jerk, or whether he will disappear and never call again.
You may deserve better treatment than that, but if your date is a jerk, he’s probably going to treat you fairly poorly regardless.
If you want to ensure that you don’t hop in bed with a jerk, find out whether he’s a jerk before you have sex. If you want him to respect you after he has sex with you, take the time to find out whether he respects you before he has sex with you.
Seriously. The men who don’t respect you before sex aren’t going to respect you afterwards. You can’t make them respect you. You can avoid having sex with them (or not). Evan and I certainly can’t make them respect you. We can advise you that it may not be in your best interest to have sex with them.
If you want to have sex with those men (or not), it’s your choice. If you want to listen to Evan’s advice (or not), that’s your choice. Both of us will respect either choice.
I can say that I’m not terribly fond of listening to people whine about sleeping with (or dating) jerks who don’t respect them. To me, the solution to that problem seems blatantly obvious.
Maria Almudena says
As someone else here pointed out earlier, Victoria, waiting until you are comfortable with a guy to have sex (until you trust him, until you are fairly sure that he’s not a serial killer or some kind of lesser creep, until you know a bit about him) is NOT withholding sex. It’s refraining from sex. “Withholding” sex implies that you were already having it and you then decide to stop.
My reasons for waiting for sex are not any kind of stratagem. It’s just that a physical connection is not sufficient for me to sleep with somebody. I can’t think of anything worse than having sex with a guy in the absence of caring, trust, affection. I’d much rather spend quality time with a vibrator. A vibrator doesn’t get moody or gives you crabs or wants to be sucked for extended periods of time, or expects breakfast.
Sexual release is a terrible pretext to bring a stranger into your home. And yet I remember having a few one night stands when I was younger, not because I was overwhelmed by physical urges, but because I thought that was the gateway to a relationship, the beginning of love and affection. How could I be so wrong? Any love or affection, any chance of a relationship, was aborted by the very act of having sex. Because, at that point, the guy knew that he didn’t have to try anything else — no need for conversation, for charm, for deference or affection. No need to impress me or to win me over, or to get to know me or to reveal of himself. No need to even learn my name. NO THANKS. I will honor and value myself, I will wait until I feel something, until sex means something, before I go there.
Kathleen says
Evan I want to tell you how much you advice has made a difference for me. For all the women that don’t get your message, or distort it, there are those that do, and really appreciate it.
I was clueless after being (married) with my ex for 22 years .Over the next newly single years, I didn’t know how to manage guys when dating. Many were a combination of indifferent, non committal, don’t want to “label ” a relationship, on the “rebound’ etc.
Im certainly no doormat, but I have got attached and hurt by poor prospects (with whom I had chemistry)
Now I can weed out these guys expertly and you have provided the best advice on how to do it. If theres anything I can’t stand its being in limbo with a guy. What I hear now from guys is they love the confidence I radiate and it comes from being clear about what I want.
Kim Donelan says
I totally agree. Good for you!!!
You sound lovely~
Anonymus says
Poor me, after dating a few guys whom i did the ‘foreplay thing’ with without necesarily doing intercourse, i dated this guy, our 1st night/date together, even after i told him i do not want to go all the way, he got inside, without even me knowing it he was humping, i stood there shocked & confused. Thats how i lost my virginity. That was the most traumatising event in my life, I’m still recovering. The next date i will feel better by telling the person b4 we even go into a private place that we are not going to have sex.
River says
And you think women are heart broken by some guy they dont even know pumping and dumping them, as if women fall in love after two dates.
Maria Almudena says
Heart-broken is certainly not the word, but a woman can feel used and humiliated and very vulnerable for sure after the pump and dump. Because the event that to her was the beginning of a relationship, to the guy is the end of it.
Lindsay says
Totally agree with your comments Evan and I agree this has worked for me. However, I have had a guy ask me to wait for sex (after quite a few dates) and this threw me a bit. Wasn’t expecting that at all! I always thought that men always wanted sex whatever and not sure why but I was a little upset by it! Is it for the same reasons for men and women?
motherlover jones says
Women who think they’re clever for making men jump through hoops before rewarding them with their vaginas are just going to get men who play the game until they get what they want and then disappear.
Maria Almudena says
Women who invite strangers into their homes and vaginas before establishing some measure of trust and mutual regard and affection are offering themselves up as a plaything in someone else’s game, with the other player being an unknown quantity potentially encompassing from serial killers to garden-variety narcissists to guys boring enough to cause brain damage.
Melissa says
Evan,
Let me preface this with, to each their own, I won’t judge. For me personally, I’d like to wait till marriage to have sex (let the comments begin). Not to say I’ve ever managed to do that, but definitely not until I know the person and feel it’s going somewhere. I’m 42 years old and I’ve been single for over 3 years. Recently, I dated a 28 year old man. I was hesitant due to the age difference. Even before he asked me out, I mentioned I wanted to wait until marriage. It didn’t seem to detour him, AT ALL. He was attentive. Texted throughout the day. emailed every morning and every night. Very sweet. Long story short, he said he didn’t want to get married for 10 years. He was upfront, honest, direct. I did feel it was too good to be true. I stayed true to my word of not having sex. He said all the right things. After one month, he told me in, ‘you are like a drug to me. I’m hooked.” Bliss, I thought. That was the last text I ever received from him. He never responded to any text or phone calls after. My first experience with ‘ghosting.’ Bizarre and rude. I’m incredibly happy I never had sex with him. I’m sure I would have felt a lot worse. Common courtesy, people! A simple “I’m just not into you,” or , “Sorry, I don’t see this going anywhere,” what have done wonders. Anything. Something. I did lick my wounds, but much less than had I had sex with him. Concluding I should probably not be dating someone 14 years younger. Though, he already had a vasectomy and didn’t want any more kids (nor did I).
Leslie says
OMG Evan, you are so fricking patient I am blown away. Reading these posts, women, myself included are so conflicted! This situation happened with me, like clockwork, nothing original about me or my life, that is for certain! I decided to sleep with a man before we even discussed exclusivity or commitment. I was married for 10 years, divorced for over 4 and my confidence was not good, well not great so I went for it. Big surprise, we continued to get together and I went along with it, becoming more and more attached, wanting a relationship and still after over a year, I spend time with him despite feeling rejected but I feel so connected after having a physical relationship for over a year, on and off. I agree, waiting in the beginning until both people decide to be exclusive is key. It is a bummer that the responsibility falls most often on the woman to say no and to wait but that is nature, that’s just how men and women were created. All the feminism I studied and preached all those years didn’t change that anyway. If women want to sleep with a man with no strings (like I did and still do sometimes! I love sex!) no problem but if you want a commitment, and he can have all the bennies without any commitment then why not?! It was my choice, its always been my choice, I have the power to have sex or not or walk away or go out with him, I have the power! Thank you for your patience and willingness to re-state the same thing over and over and over for us!
Danielle says
“If you don’t care if he’s boyfriend-worthy and you just want to have sex, fuck away as you see fit.” …. WHAM. The choice is ours ladies. 1+1=2 ………… you get what you settle for. And if you dish out the goods the day you meet because you want to have your own sexual needs met .. he will not respect you. PERIOD. It doesn’t take rocket science to know that you if you gave it up that easy for him, you have likely with everyone else too. Bottom line, if you want a boyfriend who respects you, WAIT .. if you don’t want him as a boyfriend .. fuck away! 😉
Kim Donelan says
EXACTLY!!!! That’s all that Evan has written about. Some of these women on here blow my mind and need to get laid or something…Geez one would think Evan was the one who hit it and quit it by the rude,bitchy defensive comments on here.
I found the article to be telling it like it is. Would you hand over your pearl necklace to a stranger? Yet time and time again we share,we give away our precious selves and wonder why later they don’t come back for more. If you don’t value you a stranger sure isn’t.
Lee says
What I realised after reading this is that I need to be more willing to accept when someone isn’t a match- even if I really like him, which isn’t especially common for me- and be more willing to let them go on their way. This recently happened to me: I’m pretty damn selective. I found a guy on an online dating site. I thought we were REALLY compatible. After the end of the first date, I felt strong chemistry, which I hadn’t even felt with guys I was in a relationship with for 3+ years. I confused the idea of chemistry with compatibility, not to mention, our dating profiles were so similar! And I rarely, rarely, RARELY feel this kind of spark with someone. I’m someone who can wait for sex. Prior to him, I waited 5 years(!!!) because I couldn’t find someone I even remotely connected to like this- and I say this as someone who will have sex every single day within a relationship (*I’ve* been the one who got told the “oh, I have a headache” excuse)! I’m not a prude, but I am very, very monogamous in the literal sense of the word.
My fatal flaw in this thing was that once I felt this way about this guy, I was willing to sacrifice commitment in order to satiate my long dry spell on the 3rd date. Lo and behold, I quickly found out he was very emotionally unavailable and did not really try to contact me. I am pretty confident and consider myself a laid back person, I only contacted him when he contacted me, but I was getting pretty upset at his lack of communication. I tried to play it cool for a couple weeks, but then I got fed up and I assumed it was over and let him know that I thought so. I didn’t expect a response at all, but he contacted me back, claiming that no, he really did like me and that he was just trying to “take it slow”. Then he would keep responding to me, but only if I wrote him first. I felt like I was getting mixed messages. What he was saying was not matching up with what he was doing, which was nothing. Getting him to talk to me was like pulling teeth. Not to mention, I kept seeing him online on the dating site and even tried to rationalise it for a while (I was so sad about the prospect of him leaving, even though I disabled my account after the 2nd date, I’d log back on to see if he had been on recently). But actions speak louder than words and honestly… I didn’t let enough time go by before I decided to have sex. I was so SURE we’d work out that I didn’t wait to see, even for a week, if we really would work out. Now it’s been 4 weeks since I’ve seen him and 2 since he’s even spoken to me. The writing’s on the wall. It really was since the 3rd date, but I didn’t wanna see it.
I like the above advice because it’s not espousing to wait some mandatory time period like a lot of other sites out there. I’ve also read articles about how guys will “lose interest” if they don’t get sex after the 3rd or 4th date. You have to decide for yourself, what hurts worse? Losing a guy who has no real interest in you or losing a guy who has no real interest in you after you’ve already had sex with him? The same result is going to happen. They’re not going to stay. Don’t try to kid yourself in that the sex will keep them, because it won’t, if a relationship is not what they’re really after. No matter how great the sex is (I’ve never heard any complaints!), you aren’t going to keep him if he doesn’t really want you. Looking back, I wish I was more upfront about how monogamous I am and how I’d prefer to have the security of a relationship before moving onto sex. It’s not about being prudish, it’s just about doing things in an order that works best for you- and knowing what that order is. Everyone’s different.
One thing I really learned from my experience is that guys suck at keeping their favourite thing a secret. I bet on your first or second date, you know what your guy likes to do most as a hobby and I bet he chatted your ear off about it. Whether you wait for sex or not, if you don’t get the sense that after a few dates that you aren’t turning into one of his favourite things and he’s not actively demonstrating that to you (pro tip: if he is telling you that you are his “little secret”, he’s not telling his friends about you and that’s probably not a good sign that a relationship is going to develop), then you need to be willing to cut the line and let him go. No matter how great the attraction is or how compatible he seemed on paper… :/
Nate says
The huge problem with this advice is that it pushes away all of the men who are great who will wait around for a woman to decide when’s she’s ready to have sex. In your world women are the CEOs and men are the interns applying for the job, but in my world, I have many sexual and dating options with gorgeous, successful women. I will never commit to a woman before having sex because I simply do not have to. The really successful, confident, attractive, charming men in the world don’t wait around for a woman to decide when its time or promise a commitment early on because it’s simply not necessary for them. They have tons of options with high quality women.
What keeps this type of man around? Well, for starters, having great sex with him. Next, the woman will have to have a great personality, be very attractive, be confident, etc. Sex or no sex, this guy may not stick around because he has a lot of options, but I can almost guarantee you that he will not stick around without sex. That’s absolutely a prerequisite. The only way to get this guy hooked is to have sex with him AND have all the other great qualities he is looking for.
Maria Almudena says
See, to me, weeding out self-important, self-congratulating narcissists who think they are God’s gift to women is another great reason to wait for sex.
Nina says
Maria Almudena
That sounds great in theory. But I have realized that when I disclose my my “waiting until exclusive” rule to the men I date; the more attractive/ good looking ones often disappear. Previously when I had the “go with the flow approach” and simply hooked up with the guys I found attractive and hoped for relationships to develop; there seemed to be an abundance of good looking, hot, high quality guys. Now its mostly average looking ones who have the patience to ‘follow though’.
Have you experienced this too, Maria?
CC says
I agree with EMK, in that a woman who is looking to get married and weed out anyone not interested in commitment should pace sex, and require emotional interaction before sex. But I disagree that men look for sex and find love. My experience is that a man who is ready for a real relationship KNOWS that before he even meets you. Men are directive about their lives and women are accessories for them. They are also very confident that they can find women on their timelines. Women are the opposite. Women want relationships and most of their dating is trying for this. This is because they pay a higher price in dating, emotionally and socially due to their lower power position in the social hierarchy and because of the greater focus on their physical appearance which is demanding and takes a toll on their energy, focus and self esteem. A man who wants to be committed will commit quickly and find a woman who says yes since women are always ready for this. A man who wants his freedom will not commit to the perfect fit for him because she didn’t come at the right “time”. Women don’t feel the luxury of throwing away a good man because she is not “ready”. She is always “ready” to be with someone decent. Men have more options, choice, power and directive in the relationship process. Then one day, they wake up old, fat and lonely and go on the internet to find someone 20 years younger, and then it’s time to wake up. Sad state of affairs thanks to our socialization based on gender, power, appearance and money. Stupid. If there were more focus on the quality of interactions, insight into emotional needs, less shallowness of values, there would be better matches, less divorce and less power dynamics in relationships. Women, remember: men are the ones who gain the most benefits in committed relationships, and society has given us the illusion of benefits by bestowing status to us by being with a man. It’s our proof that we are quality people to society. Men are desirable as singles, we are “losers” as singles. It drives the process.
Tom10 says
@ CC #72
“But I disagree that men look for sex and find love. My experience is that a man who is ready for a real relationship KNOWS that before he even meets you. Men are directive about their lives and women are accessories for them. “
I actually think there’s some merit to this — for a certain percentage of men anyway. I agree that many men actually have little interest in relationships, but at some stage in their lives they rationalize themselves into one for practical reasons such as desire for family, someone to take of them, company in old age etc.
“They are also very confident that they can find women on their timelines.”
True, but only for some guys – the guys with options. Other guys don’t have that luxury.
“Women are the opposite. Women want relationships and most of their dating is trying for this. This is because they pay a higher price in dating, emotionally and socially due to their lower power position in the social hierarchy”
How do women pay a higher price in dating? If anything, as the initial dating burden (asking out/risk of rejection/arranging and paying for dates) “usually” falls on the guy I would have thought that *men* pay a higher price in dating, no?
And how are women in a lower power position in the social hierarchy? Trust me, after a number of rejections men usually suss out fairly accurately where they lie on the social hierarchy and it’s certainly not in a higher position than women. *Some* men are higher than other men, as are *some* women are higher than other women.
“Men have more options, choice, power and directive in the relationship process.”
True. But women have more options, choice, power and directive in the casual sex process. So score draw eh?
“Then one day, they wake up old, fat and lonely and go on the internet to find someone 20 years younger, and then it’s time to wake up.”
Oh, if only it were that easy. I’ll admit that it would be nice to be able to pull that off, but something tells me that there aren’t that many young women looking to marry old, fat and lonely men 20 years older than them.
“Women, remember: men are the ones who gain the most benefits in committed relationships,”
If this were true *why* do we have blogs and dating coaches dedicated to women looking for love and relationships, and not for men?
“and society has given us the illusion of benefits by bestowing status to us by being with a man. It’s our proof that we are quality people to society. Men are desirable as singles, we are “losers” as singles. It drives the process.”
But *who* bestows status on you by being with a man? If it’s your friends you might need new friends. My friends and family couldn’t care less about my relationship status as they are too pre-occupied with their own issues (admittedly, as I’m a man, that doesn’t refute your point).
Lizzy says
Really awesome advice! I love it! It’s all stuff my parents taught me and I happened to follow in my life anyway. I can say that choosing “not” to have sex often kept me from being jerked around by guys who had issues and/or agendas. I had lots of guys leave me when I didn’t put out, but they would have left anyway, so I had no regrets about that. Over the years, I’ve met a small handful of men who didn’t think having sex was more important than getting to know me and let me feel comfortable. They do exist and those men are out there, somewhere.
alice says
I agree with Evan. He is right. Women cannot fuck on the first date. Second date or third dat. Most guys are bad ass jerk that only wants free fucks. So women becareful.
Karmic Equation says
Depends on the woman, Alice, and how she behaves AFTER sex. And the REASON she has sex. I have sex because I want to. I don’t care whether or not a relationship results as I don’t tie either sex or my value as a woman to whether or not I’m in a relationship. It’s very liberating.
Of my last 3 LTRs:
1) Lasted 6 years…began as an ONS.
2) Lasted 1.5 years…we didn’t even have a single date before we had sex. We didn’t go on any dates until AFTER we had sex.
3) Current relationship: 3 months and going strong — no telephone numbers exchanged nor any dates until AFTER we had sex. At week 3 we went on a mini-vacation out of town. At week 6 we traded house keys.
Men stick around if they believe you’re stable. You change after sex and most believe you’ve done the bait and switch and switched to the “real” version of you. Train yourself to be the same person before and after sex. Men won’t freak out. They stick around because that makes you stand out from other women and they want to know the cool chick better.
There are two ways to doing this, if you ARE a clingy neurotic person, be that clingy neurotic person on dates. Then after sex, you’re the same person. So he’s not surprised. Or you can teach yourself to be non-clingy, non-neurotic, then you’re the same non-clingy, non-neurotic person after sex. The former you don’t have to do a thing but “be yourself” but you’ll go through a lot of me before you find one that will find that clingy neuroticism “cute”. The latter allows you access to the majority of men but requires you to exercise a LOT of self-control and do a lot of self-improvement work, until all of that coolness is internalized and becomes the new real you.
Blaming men isn’t going to get you any further than you are now.
alice says
I try not to blame. but then I get so ashamed of it later. it was an on and off thing. we will meet only for sex. I know I try and take it as a ons. but as I read what evan said…women get attached emotionally after sex. we cannot just simply has sex and be ok about it. we shouldn’t. we should love ourselves by keeping our body to ourself and our husband. or the one that deserve us. we shouldn’t. I regretted it. I know he will never love me. but I still love him regardless, but I am not gonna do it again with him for now until forever. because he is not worth it.
pa says
The best advice I have heard yet!
Aida says
Absolutely love this article!
george says
fuck and forget is mostly the policy of westerners or white man.If your man want to come for you offer sex.Then see.It is one way of knowing each other. Anyway. thank you
Laura says
Jeez, Evan you must feel like a broken record! I could predict your answers to questions before I read them. My problem is I want to wait, I want to respect myself and make sure he is the kinda guy I want to be with before giving up the goods….my problem is, I’m super horny! I’ve never waited before yet I’ve never had a problem with getting a long term boyfriend. Anyways, been single and “sex-free” for over 7 months and it’s so hard! I’ve just started dating one guy and he seems nice. I know the answer already, I either wait and make sure everything is good or I go ahead and blame myself if it goes awry after sex. Don’t worry about people’s comments, I think they just want to voice their opinion but don’t get the article and what you’re trying to say. I get it and thank you
Zola says
Great article. You know you can never please everyone. Those who take it personally are usually guilty.
Zola says
Dear Evan,
Great article, you know you can’t pleae everyone. The guilty always have something negative to say. Keep telling the truth. I stop being a booty call many years ago.
Sherah says
I have decided to go 3 years without having sex with any man. I came to this blog because tomorrow will be the end of my 3 years of no sex goal and I have been keeping this guy waiting now 2 years.
I was considering letting him take my “3rd virgin” but something stopped me. I realized I don’t want another FWB but a serious relationship. I am expecting him to have a war with me once he finds out I won’t let him in unless he marries me. I want to know he is really worth everything about me. I don’t want to have to worry he will dump me once I give in. So being married is like a 100% guarantee he will not leave if I give him sex. If he refuses, he has plenty of other women to choose from.
What I learned from the 3 years of no sex was what I didn’t want and what I do. I have no regrets. If he refuses to marry me to get sex, no regrets. That will just tell me, he’s not the right man.
K. says
Love this series of posts. I am brand new to online dating. I have a very particular set of criteria, but am already getting lots of options. One of the guys (well, of those I like!) has come on way too strong for my tastes. I literally am telling my friends following the situation, that he’s either going to be a stalker or just wants to sleep with me. The thing is, I have thoroughly had his background checked out, and I want to give him a chance. We both have doctorates in different fields, and he’s established. I’m just starting out in mine. We’re both attractive.
I finally told him last week that I didn’t feel comfortable the way that he had been talking about his attraction to me…before even meeting me in person! I told him that I had strong boundaries. He apologized and agreed he was forward, but only because he has never met someone like me. (Trust me….it is possible. 😉 He also mentioned how he knew other guys are/would be pursuing me and that he really wants a chance.
Without any discussion with me, I noticed he subsequently hid his profile online. I texted him and told him that I noticed and that I dont want him getting his hopes up before we meet. He said he wanted to. He since laid off the the uncomfortable texts and continued to text (normal stuff…nice stuff!). A few days ago, he texted me after an otherwise nice convo that he was thinking of me….and my curves. I didn’t reply. Yesterday, I texted him that he may call me later this week to set up a time to meet next Sunday afternoon. (He tried much earlier, but I’ve been dealing with a licensing exam…) I also said, btw, I don’t have casual sex, and I’m not even on BC right now…so if you continue to contact me, you acknowledge that you understand the type of woman that I am. I honestly didnt think I’d hear from him. (No BC is a great way to weed guys out, ladies!) He texted right back that he would be calling me on Wednesday (after my exam). The funny thing is, I do think he is actually interested in more than sex. But…due to his immature comments, I feel like I need to make him wait a long time until I’m comfortable. In the past, I’d quickly feel close to the aloof gentleman types…well, thanks to them, I’m still single and more jaded than ever. Maybe this guy will stick around and then be an incredible boyfriend. Time will tell!
Joe says
K,
if you haven’t met yet you haven’t checked anything out. His education level or job on paper says little other than exactly that. Being too sexual in those first messages when you should be having some basic chat on interests and mostly setting up a first meeting (introduction) is a red flag. If he’s made you uncomfortable already why would you move things forward ? Telling some one that you don’t do casual sex or discussing birth control or getting your hopes up before meeting is doing little more than showing that the tone already is way too sexual before a first date yet you are putting up with it.
Tanya says
Even’s advice is spot on. When I was in my twenties and dating, I made men wait until we were in a committed relationship. With the exception of one guy. My ex who waited told me how much respect he had for me for knowing what I wanted. The guy who didn’t, tried treating me like a booty call.
Now that I am divorced and back on the dating scene, it is very hard finding the guys who are willing to wait. But once you weed through the less than guys, you will find someone worthy of you.
Lyra says
Seriously Evan you and dr.Ali Binazir are the only dating coaches who make sense to me. Especially when it comes to sex. I know many women enjoy casual sex and whatever the reason that they do; well have fun and good luck. BUT most women don’t and there is nothing wrong with Evan asserting his claims because his purpose is to, well, create less hurt. I have done casual sex in the past and while it was fun, I wouldn’t want to visit there again. I believe that exploring ourselves sexually is a part of self-growth, to be honest. But there is always a phase for everything, and by having done that, I become more affirmed in what I want.
Gill says
Dear Evan….well said!…excellent article. Whether we like it or not, if we want the right man for us then we have to accept the facts about the dynamics of human behaviour. So, I can either act according to the reality, or try like mad to create a different reality that (in ‘real’ reality) will only ever exist in my own desires. Personally, I’ll take the former and use less mental and emotional energy whilst doing so!!. .. Cheers!
myriam says
Well Said!
Joe says
Sex is just sex. Men and women may want sex and relationships with some and not others. These rules only serve to drive away potential people and justify when someone doesn’t want what we do in a way that puts blame on the person doing the rejecting. The more we make sex a commodity the more people we will see giving up on the idea that’s it’s a positive experience. there is no More reason for guys to try to get it than there is for women to try to hold it for months or years. It’s not a an “it”. It’s an activity between two people. Just decide who and when and why you want to engage in it be honest and safe and there is no need for these type of games. It’s not that hard to tell when someone likes you. If you are finding guys that don’t want more than sex are the only ones you attract or meet and think that for some reason they target you over women who are actually on the same page as them them I’d suggest to look at how you feel about yourselves , others and how you interpret other people’s actions. There are lots of guys out there that want the whole package and are offering the whole package. There are also plenty of women that don’t want anything serious and things change for many at different times in their life. Also most people would want something from one person but not maybe from another.
It’s fine to wait for a genuine connection , but there is no number of dates, hours, weeks , txts , kisses etc. some people can be married years and never connect deeply. Others may talk all night after one date and be ready. If you are worried about sex being given too freely to quickly I’d ask why you would be hurt more after sex. If you were that into them wouldn’t them disappearing even with out the guy having sex with you be just as bad. By all means don’t have sex until you feel comfortable and want to but you can’t control another person or when they are comfortable. The best you can do is communicate. Their time table being different than yours especially if yours is artificially derived based on games or rules isn’t going to tell you their intentions at any given time. If you don’t think you can trust them , or believe them when you are communicating then they are maybe not someone to spend time with let alone have sex with.
francine says
I already agreed with your “why women should make men wait for sex” blog. and I agree with this one just a much.
I have had one-night stands with no expectations of ever hearing from the guy again. and that was okay because I wasn’t looking for anything serious.
I have had 3 dates where I have slept with the guy because I thought that is what you were meant to do and then been disappointed when they disappeared.
I have had sex on the 3rd date and ended up in longer then necessary relationships because my judgement was blurred by the emotions.
and just recently I had a 4 date, and uses EMKs advised. “I’m really attracted you, but I don’t sleep with guys I’m not exclusive with, I don’t say that to put pressure on you. I just wanted you to know where I stand. But i’m really enjoying making out with you right now.”
I was ready to not hear from him the next day – I was going to get my answer, without the heartache of sleeping with him.
He stood up to the plate – he message me the next day and he planned a 5th date with me.
So from where I’m standing EMKs hasn’t got it wrong when it comes to putting yourself in the best position for a long-term relationship (IF that is what you are looking for)
F says
As a relatively young woman who only really entered the dating scene this year, I just want to say thank you for writing this. I’ve made my fair share of mistakes already, and recently made up my mind to wait for commitment before giving too much away.
People gave called you out for “slut shaming” etc, but I’ve spent various dates worrying that if I don’t have sex fairly early that that’s going to end the “relationship”. It’s kind of the opposite problem, and it’s really nice to read something that vehemently encourages holding out for commitment without being patronising.
Thank you 🙂
K says
Three things have to click in order for a relationship to last in a healthy way. Sexual energy to be sustained
1. Can you communicate with each other? Can you and want to speak with each other about anything under the umbrella? Can you do this without fighting, getting upset? Can you both sit in the car in complete silence and talk, understand and/or respect each others thoughts/feelings for hours.
2. Can you work as a team? for example both work and contribute to the savings. Both help out with house chores. Pick up the other person if they are stranded? Take care of the person when they are sick? and vice versa
3. Do you share similar interests? This is not the same as opposite attracts. Similar interests is important to fuel the fire in the relationship. The more the better but at least 1 passionate interest in common. It could be you are both documentary watching lovers. Love to read new best sellers. Like listening to deep house music. Go to the gym together. Then also discuss about these things when you do #1. Something(s) that you can share interest more on a daily basis vs for example travelling because for most people they can only travel only for several weeks in a year.
Attraction by looks, money , status, fashion etc. All come into play. But the three most important things are the things I listed above. You have the three above “locked” between two people and it will likely result in commitment, happiness and forever bliss. Passionate love making.
Bill says
FWIW, some men do this too.
I’m an admitted serial monogamist, and in my last relationship things got physical too early and from that point on it just felt off to me. I want connection, I want sex to be more than just getting my rocks off or I could save time and money by flying to Nevada and visiting a brothel.
Instead, if you’re looking for connection, that’s best done even before the physical portion of things enters into the equation.
Yes, I’m a strange male – I’ve never had a one night stand, and I’m actually rather proud of that.
But as a converse, if you’re pressuring me for sex on date #2, not only will I abstain, there won’t be a date #3.
Greg says
Thanks for giving women bogus advice and ruining their relationships by making them think that if they wait for sex the guy will “invest” in her. Look, it’s not about when she sleeps with a guy, it’s HOW MANY GUYS SHES been with that tells a guy if she is a slut or not. Being hard to get has nothing to do with waiting for sex, it’s about not dating most guys that actually makes a girl look like a prize. Trust me, I’m a guy, this is how we think okay.
Bill says
If waiting for sex “ruins” the relationship the guy wasn’t worth having sex with in the first place.
No guy who is decent will have an issue with waiting, only those that want a hookup will.
judy says
To Greg 91 – thank you for giving me a good laugh. This is so judgemental, I don’t whether I shouldn’t cry as well
For crying out loud, if you sleep with a woman, you’re another number, aren’t you and you were there too, weren’t you?
aurora the great says
I know right! Thinking guys will invest if we make them wait? I shouldn’t have to hold off sex for so long to make a guy realize I’m valuable. If he thinks I have little value because of how fast I gave up the cookie or (let’s put it in realistic terms) gave into my carnal desires just like he did, then he’s not worth pondering about. I know that if a guy likes me for me, he’ll stick around whether sex happens much later or sooner.
Linda says
Hi Evan, I’m a single woman, almost 60 years old. I may be one of your ‘mature’ readers. All I can say is you are 100% correct in saying women should wait to have sex. I’ve lived long enough and have had several relationships to know Evan is right. Ladies….listen to Evan and listen to your elders. We know what is good for you. I know many of you will still do what you want to do and may learn the hard way.
Stephanie says
All of this is great advice for me to put to use with a guy I’ve been dating (met online, talking for about 6 weeks, but have only been on 3 dates in large pet because of our conflicting work schedules). I am a virgin, but my “criteria” for having intercourse is that the guy be someone I trust and am comfortable with and like/am attracted to. I am also realizing I need to tie the “commitment” part in there more and more.
The guy says he’s dated several virgins and they were virgins even when they broke up after long relationships. However, he says he feels he’s in a different place where it would take a really special woman to wait until marriage (we are in our mid 30s). He seems bothered by the distance between us (about an hour or so), our cultural backgrounds, and a few other things that I hadn’t really seen as an issue since we are just starting to date. He has started to pressure me for intercourse, but then will turn around and apologize for not realizing how much pressure he was putting on me. We fooled around quite a bit on our last date and I enjoyed it and he seemed to, as well.
I have told him that I do not expect to wait until marriage for sex (or even THAT long), but I would really like to take some time to explore each other, physically, without sex. He says he wants one end of the spectrum (having intercourse and everything else!) or no physical stuff at all (besides some light kissing). He thinks if we stay in the middle ground, that I will make a rash decision to go all the way, in the heat of the moment, and then later regret it. He also thinks it’s ironic that I find it a little frustrating that “being a virgin” almost creates a social stigma, but that I am willing to do other things (sexually) and thereby continuing to put the act of intercourse on a pedestal.
I’ve asked if we should “just be friends”…if that’s what he wants. He says he really likes me and would rather try no physical stuff first, but his expectation still seems to be that he thinks I will just wake up one morning and go “today’s the day I’m going to have sex!”
Additionally, he continues to keep his online dating profile BUT claims he only dates one woman at a time, that I’m the only one, that he doesn’t get physical with women unless he thinks they are long term potential, and wants to introduce me to the family and even go on a little vacation with them in a couple of months. But I’m realizing that he fails to show commitment and think I’m answering my own questions when I ask: Is it weird that he doesn’t want any “middle ground,” physically? Does this truly have any long term potential?
Scarlett says
lmfao Funny. Every long term boyfriend I’ve had,and my husband I’ve had sex with immediately. Seriously,what kind of woman would be able to resist the temptation of an extremely attractive man??? A dumb/crazy woman. That who.
judy says
Scarlett 94 – a woman with self respect and a high sense of value will resist, yes. Because she wants to make sure that he’s not just there for sex. It’s okay if you just want sex I suppose but if you want someone decent (i.e. what does he do when you have a bad cold/lost your job/baby, etc. – run away and shag someone else?)
Hem says
Hello Evan, I am in Canada and he is in Germany. Ideally I would want to wait until sex for marriage. He was married but his wife passed away. But I have been hurt so much that I know if I have sex, I will turn into a puddle of insecurity. But he is flying all the way here to see me, is sex a reward for money spent on the trip? Or to bring us closer. Even if I know in my heart I am not ready. We have been talking for about 7 months. Back and forth daily. Talking about our hopes and dreams and goals and life. And we are are happy. he is Catholic and I am Baptist. I honestly want to try following Gods plan and see if that changes my evergrowing list of failed relationships. The last man I dated said of his same lines. It is not about marriage.. Its about love and commitment and choosing to grow and stay together. We are already a family. Plus so and so waited years before they married. I am not your exes…. Blah blah blah. I siad okay. One more guy, I will. Choose to trust (by the way) this guy even came crying on his knees to take me back after my childrens father and I decided that we would give it another go… Also even when we had our tiffs and short break ups he would still come around , help me with things such as car problems and what not. And I always treated him like a King. That even when I begged him to go and hang out with his friends or his family he would just come and see me instead. P.s once we split he had the nerve to say I kept him away from everyone. Yet up til the point of breaking up we hardly ever had conflict and our love was “crash my party, Luke Bryan” and “play it again ” material… Yet he knew I wanted marriage and waited until 4 years later and I was bursting and going literally crazy the last months. Waiting to see if I was finally good enough marriage material… As soon as I moved out another single mom moved in, got pregnant engaged and married. In less than two years. That was over 1 1/2 years and even after meeting this awesome guy, by fluke even. I still cry about him. Have dreams of him and his family. Cry for the baby we never got to enjoy together. I do not want to be one that doesn’t trust and never falls in love. But sex is easy and fun. I love sex.. Who doesn’t??? I want real love and real marriage blessings. I don’t want even 12 years wasted… If you understand what I mean. I want grow old. And drop dead happy together love. It is not old school. It is what life is about live love and family and laughs. I know sex does not garuntee a lasting marriage. But it beats all the insecure thoughts that comes after sex when it is time for the person to leave. To clarify… Work, home wherever
anna says
Don’t know when this was written.. just stumbled across this post .. to say the tone comes across as outdated and judgmental..
what gives any guy the ground to lecture women in general? Perhaps focus on learning/ suggesting to fellow blokes, good ways to behave?
Evan Marc Katz says
This is a site for women who want to understand men and make healthier relationship choices that are aligned with their long term goals. If you want to find a site that tells men how to act, you should look for one – they certainly won’t be as evenhanded as this one.
Michelle H. says
Excellent post. I appreciate all the time, thought & effort you put into it.
Neema says
Thank you Evan… Thank you so much!! Stay blessed.
Alex says
Absolutely spot on advice Evan. And exactly how I’m approaching dating currently. Amazing how clearly you can evaluate a potential partner/relationship when you take sex out of the equation for the first few dates. Wish I’d read this sooner!
Carmen Q says
This was great advice, and I’m a liberal-minded feminist. Too sad that so many didn’t get what you’re trying to say, or that they twisted things… I love your articles.
Dee says
Wow….I just stumbled across this article… Truly I needed this reminder…. 😊😊😊…I’m about to read part 2!!!!..Thank you….
Amy says
Amazingggg! And in my experience
so true!!
LeeAnn says
I really am surprised that so many women find this very tried-and-true information offensive and/or feel the need to challenge it. This is as basic and simple as A plus B equals C. Maybe more women WISH that things were different, maybe some women really do believe that things have changed so much since the sexual revolution came about that we have the same ideas and thoughts as men. WE DO NOT. We have the same heart, love and compassion, but not the same ideas and thoughts where certain things are concerned.
Learning to understand that there are some differences between men and women does not place a greater value of one gender over the other. It just means that we are different in how we relate to some things. A woman holding out to have sex isn’t some old, played-out antiquated notion, it actually holds something valuable in it, and really does help to protect all parties involved in a few ways.
When you feel confident in yourself and know what you want from a man (which as EMK said, may or may not be a committed relationship, in which case this info won’t be of any consequence to you), its even more helpful to understand that waiting to have sex helps you to get to know each other on a more emotional, spiritual and intellectual basis, devoid of sex. Its easy to fall in lust with someone and overlook undesirable qualities when your judgment is impaired by the ecstasy of sex. We can forgive a lot when we are high on the night-before-sexual-escapade we had. Take the sex out of the equation until you get to know a man and his intentions better, and your vision becomes much clearer. You will feel much safer and powerful–not in a game playing sense, but in a “I am a woman of value” sense and I have choices. It also helps to give a woman a sense of security, because with sex for most of us women, comes emotional intimacy–why would a woman want to make herself that vulnerable to a man she doesn’t even know? Protect your hearts until you know you are headed where you want to go.
I’m sorry things haven’t changed enough for some of you in respect to dating and commitment. I know you want to be able to sleep with whomever you want when you want and still get what you want. (Again, if what you want is to have casual sex with no strings attached, then this info isn’t for you.) But this isn’t how it works, just because you say so.
Listen to what men tell you sometimes. Maybe they know what they are looking for, and what inspires them to make a long-term commitment to a woman.
aurora the great says
If a man is going to judge a woman for having sex too soon, then perhaps HE’S the one who should be putting on the breaks for sex. I don’t need a man in my life who judges women based on how soon he was able to lay her. Not all men are like that and I will not stand for a male chauvinist pig in my life. It will always be HIS loss. Never mind.
Deb says
Thank you Evan for this article! This really resonated with me as I was one of those women that slept with men just based on attraction and hoping that he would want a relationship. I have done this for the last four years and am tired of the same unfavorable results and feeling crappy about myself every time. I want a loving committed relationship and I am going to try dating differently now, using this advice. Women need to realize there are not only emotional repercussions but health consequences as well when we sleep with men indiscriminately. I had a wake up call when I was diagnosed with HPV 6 months ago, and I’m still not completely in the clear. Since then I have taken a break from dating for some self reflection, and I have decided that my heart and body are both to be cherished. I will not share them with just anyone. Again thank you Evan! I am now ready to start dating again but with some fresh wisdom and increased sense of self worth.
aurora the great says
Then that would be a plus if he never called again. Why would I want a guy who only wanted me for sex or judged me for having sex too soon to keep calling me? I see this as weeding out the bad guys. If that’s all he thought I was worth then that could only possibly mean that that’s all he’s good for. Why would I want trash. I’m a jewel so only the right type of guy wouldn’t be judgmental toward me about an act that he participated in himself. It will always equal to being his loss. Definitely never ever my loss.
LeeAnn says
Hi….its interesting how you said that if he never called you again after having sex right away that this would be considered a process of weeding out the bad v. good guys. So if he calls after having sex right away he’s a good guy? And if he doesn’t call after having sex right away he’s a bad guy?
I think that actually getting to know someone after a period of time is the only way to tell if their character is, how you put it, “good” or “bad.” I’m not sure that having a man call you after having sex right away with you is a measurement for having “good” character. You still would have no idea who this person is, although you’ve just shared a very sacred part of yourself with him.
If what you’re looking for is casual sex with no strings attached, then that’s fine. But I think EMK is saying that if you are looking for a relationship, holding out to have sex with a man is advantageous in many ways. It gives the both of you time to get to know each other before sharing physical intimacy, which can complicate things and cloud your judgment. You can see things about a persons character you would otherwise miss if you are having sex with them right away. Sex has a way of enchanting us to put those rose colored glasses on.
And I don’t think that a man is a chauvinist just because he places value on how long a woman waits before she has sex with him. This actually works in his favor as well by helping him to slow down and get to know the woman before him. As women, we most times hold that power. We can emotionally guide the courtship and first dating experience through our wisdom and patience. And he can guide the relationship through his intentions and turning those intentions into actions. The two work hand-in-hand. No one greater than the other. Just different.
When you allow yourself to get to know a person before jumping into bed with them, it actually allows you to see more warts and beauty uninterrupted by physical intimacy. I believe this only makes the bond that could potentially happen even stronger. At least it has in my experience. Now in this case, I can say if I let I man know that i’m not interested in sleeping with any guy i’m not committed to, and then he doesn’t call, I have my answer. But if he does call, I know he’s interested in getting to know me, all of me, not just what I have to offer him physically. There’s trust building in that right from the start.
There is value and balance in that.
AuroraTheGreat says
I agree with a lot of what you said. What I mean is if having sex with him was what determined that you’re not valuable, that is very sexist, especially if he pursued sex. He doesn’t have a right to judge her if he he wasn’t willing to wait. Now, if he has standards that dictate that he will wait for sex, then I can see him thinking that this woman isn’t for him, BUT, only if he turns down having sex with her. A man should have the same values. It’s a big problem that society teaches men that they can just pursue sex whenever there’s an urge, come out smelling like a rose and that the woman is tarnished as a whore.
I don’t mind holding out, as long as it’s not too long. I can see some people not paying attention to important details because of the charm of sex, but not everyone is the same. I keep myself aware of a mans behavior and sometimes I find that a man feels more relaxed to be himself afterward, become familiar and if there are bad qualities they will surface faster. Although I don’t like waiting too long, it is good to see what a man’s reaction is when you want to hold off sex for a not. I watch for facial expressions and time of voice. Does he get an attitude and get annoyed or does he happily respect your wishes?
I do thing that men need to be taught morals when they are young and it’s a shame that it’s not happening very much. Unfortunately the morals most men are taught is that the moral decisions about sex is reliant on the woman. It really doesn’t have to be that way. So when I say male chauvinist pig, I say that if he believes all moral responsibility is on the woman. He should be able to act in a way that he would judge of a woman acted in kind.
The problem is that not enough women talk about it and it’s a huge problem. No one wants to rock the boat because they don’t want to be called a bitter, whiny man hating feminist. Men and women both have a sex drive and we are both equally responsible for what we do with it. Just because a man doesn’t get pregnant, doesn’t mean that he should be as equally concerned if it happens. I would never want to be with a man who would say, “not my problem ” if he got a woman pregnant. He should have just as much concern even though it’s not happening in his body. His lack of concern is not only a burden to the woman but a burden on society.
AuroraTheGreat says
I’ll use this portion as an example of how I agree with you, but I will add to it. I just want to clarify. If this same man who was willing to get to know you beyond what you have to offer physically just so happens to sleep wth a woman before getting to know her and then sees her as less valuable, isn’t he a hypocrite? That behavior from men makes me very angry and I can never get passed that with him finally seeing the light and agreeing with me. i cannot have a relationship with a man who refuses to to the hypocrisy in that. I think HE becomes less valuable because he baseS it all on early sex rather than who she is as a person. So, this is why I would consider him a bad guy, unless it was agreed that he was only looking for something casual. It shouldn’t be that women have to keep their legs closed unless it is equally that he has to keep it in his pants.
All in all, I don believe that not rushing into sex has its advantages for both sexes, and since it does, perhaps men should exercise these standards minus the hypocrisy.
Joyce says
Nice write up
Kim Donelan says
As a beautiful woman in my 40’s I have to say that I really enjoyed both of your blog posts and think you’re dead on. You are telling it how it is. If you don’t want a greater risk of getting used and hurt hold out and see what kind of effort he makes to be with you. It’s called having standards. No one values anything that too easy to come by, we value what we invest in. I personally have never wanted to feel like a free prostitute by feeling used and discarded with the possibility of never hearing from a guy again because I gave him my treasure chest too soon. Time will tell everything,so what is the big rush?? Enjoy doing things together,see his character,laugh,have fun…and sex will happen naturally at the right time later on. We are so much more than frogs and dogs who jump on and hump at any arousal. Yes, we teach people how to treat us according to our own self-worth. Your articles were great and very refreshing. Thank you for sharing!!! 🙂
Andrea says
Rocks,
Have some fun and stop being confined to what society tells you…it’s detrimental to the female. Have sex with hot men, use a condom of course and enjoy your life. This bs of dating and games is just that, men do what they want when they want, they are liars and users. If you think “holding out” is going to get you somewhere, it won’t. Just more lies and bs. If a man goes out or is online looking to get laid and you hold out, he’s only getting it elsewhere until you give it up or he tires of the game. The older a man gets the less effort he puts out. Don’t get fooled by the BS, its not your fault, you want companionship they want new ass, not your fault. Get in shape, have fun with younger men, get friendship from girlfriends or whoever and live…life is too short blaming yourself from that you have no control of dear.
Nina says
Andrea
Not all men are hot. Most are average looking and therefore cannot just expect women to hook up with them. Long term relationships are their only option to have regular sex. So yes, there are men who are suited for long term committed relationships.
I think a woman can do both: Have casual sex with hot men without requiring anything from them; and also date other men (who may not necessarily be hot but have some redeeming qualities suited for long term relationships) while making them wait for sex until commitment/exclusivity.
Jack says
Nina,
A woman who is average-looking, cannot do both. Average-looking women pair only with average-looking men, even when it’s casual. Like attracts like.
Emily, to says
Jack,
“Average-looking women pair only with average-looking men, even when it’s casual. Like attracts like.”
Oh, you’ve unknowingly opened up a can of worms. You’ll soon get posts telling you that average-looking women go up … What is it? I know someone will want to inform you … +1.22275 on the SMV scale in terms of casual sex, land those guys for a night, and then spend the rest of their lives wrongly concluding those types of guys will marry them.
Jack says
Emily,
IN RESPONSE TO EMILY,
What exactly do you mean by “You’ll soon get posts telling you that average-looking women go up … What is it? I know someone will want to inform you …” ?? gO UP TO WHAT ? Someone will inform me what ? Just curious.
In addition, your claim that “+1.22275 on the SMV scale in terms of casual sex, land those guys for a night, and then spend the rest of their lives wrongly concluding those types of guys will marry them” assumes that highly unattractive women land a “hot” guy for the night. Do you honestly believe that ?
In my 20s or 30s when I was hotter than I am now (although I still am as I continue to get long looks, approach invitations and even attempts to strike up a conversation with me from women in their 20s through 50s—–if you exercise, are not overweight, don’t smoke or drink alcohol, and have Mediterranean ancestry you can still look great in your middle years) I would never have been interested in a 1.22275 on the SMV scale. I got green signals from beautiful girls and women. (Looks of a man matter much more to women than most women will openly admit.) I did not think any less of non-beautiful females, I simply was not romantically interested in them. It’s an attractive man’s choice who he wants to be with. 6 foot, good-looking men have options.
By the way, rating people by a number is something I never did in my life. I think it’s silly and maybe just a little mean. I value all people who cross into my life without assigning them to a number.
Emily, to says
Jack,
I meant the usual suspects/posters on here will argue that a woman can get a man a bit hotter than she is for casual sex, but that gives her a false sense of what she can land because she’ll expect those slightly hotter guys to want to date/marry her. Thus, she can go 1.2227 higher than her own SMV for casual sex. I was being sarcastic when I used that number. That seems to be how ridiculously specific some get in the SMV argument.
“By the way, rating people by a number is something I never did in my life. I think it’s silly and maybe just a little mean. I value all people who cross into my life without assigning them to a number.”
Could not agree more.
SparklingEmerald says
Hi Jack “What exactly do you mean by “You’ll soon get posts telling you that average-looking women go up … What is it? I know someone will want to inform you …” ?? gO UP TO WHAT ? Someone will inform me what ? Just curious.”
Scroll through these blogs. There is no shortage of men telling us women that men will date down for easy booty. No shortage of lectures how guys will gladly bang an ugly, plain or so-so looking women for a one night stand or fling, but wouldn’t stoop so low as to get into a serious relationship with them, because SMV, yadda, yadda, yadda. Then the lecture will continue how now because of all the “high value” men using the for e-z sex, these women now have an inflated view of themselves and expect to land the “high quality” men for marriage. Funny thing is, these men are usually angry and bitter that “low value” women have an over inflated view of their worth, but they are perfectly fine with the “high value” men who apparently created the problem by dating down for easy booty.
Jack says
Hi Emily,
a bit hotter maybe, but not MUCH. MUCH hotter is a fiction made up by women seeking to bolster their image and then believed by gullible men. Actually it seems to be the other way around with men (either successful or charismatic with some measure of physical attractiveness) being able to get, date and marry hotter women.
Jack says
Hello Sparkling Emerald,
Those men telling women that men date down for easy booty by banging ugly, plain or so-so looking women for a one night stand is a fiction made up by some women to try to bolster their self-image to others to make themselves feel better, and which is then believed by gullible men, men who rarely or never get dates with a woman, any woman. If “high value” men means men who are tall and physically attractive then yeah girls/women make sex is easy. Women want it too, and those guys who can’t find a woman are either disgusting slobs or maybe they’re oblivious to the “green signals you women” send out.
I doubt that women who get used for a one night stand (and did not want a one night stand only) end up with an inflated view of themselves. Again it’s those unattractive or oblivious men making/believing a fiction. Those guys need to stop the endless beer and pizza diet. Now I could say that “high value” men did not create the problem, rather it was women by giving in to their own desires, but it’s sheer nonsense to believe attractive men (who have options with attractive women) going to average or ugly (ugh!) women for “easy booty” as you put it. Ok, I could write more, but this is tiring.
Jan says
For women, relationships probably start with the first date. For men, relationships start when they have sex for the first time. If a woman is not going to bed with a guy that she is going out with, the guy will think that the woman is taking advantage of him for dinners etc. and doesn’t really like him. So he moves on to find someone who actually wants to have a relationship with him. That’s why men establish this three date nonsense — to protect themselves from being taken advantage of, whether they are or not.
Obviously, this is a big problem
Chloe says
Dear Evan,
Does this apply to oral sex as well? I am dating someone I have not had intercourse with because we discussed only doing this if we decide to be in a committed relationship and neither of us is there yet… but we are having oral sex (reciprocally). Is it the same rule?
Really appreciate your thoughts on this Evan. Thank you!
Chloe
Evan Marc Katz says
I think oral sex is a great place to hang out for a few weeks while you discover if he’s boyfriend material, but that’s a personal decision. Whatever your boundaries are, whatever you can handle.
Natalia says
On the one hand, I think it’s sad that you have to keep clarifying that you are not condemning or judging women that choose to have sex casually. I know for a fact that if you didn’t those comments would come flying your way faster than the speed of light.
On the other hand, the fact that you are stating this over and over again (which I know is necessary) makes the point clearer that ever. I have seen many (Rory Raye included) that could not get their point through to EVERYONE because of this.
I have never seen this written in this way and I loved it. I loved it because it’s so true and it makes me feel ok and empowered for waiting and not like a prude.
Thank you!!! <3
Pi Rho says
I suspect that the problem here is not sex necessarily. The reason I believe is due to the “patterns” ladies use to select a male. Its unfortunate ladies are guided through this “Tunnel Vision” and focus on traits that majority of the men probably don’t have. The “sex without commitment” problem is because the ladies create a large supply of “them” women and match it against few of men. The people more likely to go for sex without commitment generally tend to be the ones that get the ladies easily, hence the reason why they don’t want to commit. If there is a surplus of those ladies looking for that “tall” or “haandsome” or “confident” , the men who match their “desireable” traits are not very many so they get a large menu, and wouldn’t think twice exploiting it to the fullest. If ladies did no t have the tendency towards this very shallow tunnel of “alpha” or dominant or whatever characteristics are then there wouldn’t not be the “surplus of women” and “shortage of men” quagmire and thus if a guy knows that he is ONLY as likely to get hte lady as the “NEXT GUY” near him, then he would tend to hold on to the one he got much longer…
Jeanna says
I wish I had learned all of this in my teens instead of having to learn the hard way through trial and error in my twenties. I realized through my growing self-awareness that I do tend to become attached to a man after sleeping with him, and I would begin to idealize him and overlook our incompatibility. I actually believed that, because he was a giving lover, it would somehow transfer into other areas of the relationship. That was not the case. Instead, it took me 5 years before I actually caught him cheating, but I suspect he’d been doing it all along. In hindsight, I knew everything I needed to know about him in the first month. He gave all kinds of red flags, but I slept with him after 10 days and didn’t want to see it because I wanted it to work out so badly.
In my opinion, as a 36 year old single woman, your advice is spot-on for any woman looking for more than a fling and who’s sick of rolling the dice by sleeping with men too soon in hopes that something will “stick.” I have done a lot of soul-searching and I realize that I would prefer to be in a happy, monogamous, HEALTHY relationship than to be single. About a year ago, I adopted the “friends first” approach to dating. I have always been a very blunt person; I hold no punches. What you see is what you get. I developed somewhat of a speech I give to men who are interested in me. I basically tell them that we can hang out as friends but there will be no intimate touching, no kissing, no hand-holding, and absolutely no sex until I get to know them as a friend. I let them know clearly that I am not looking for a fling, but I ultimately want to be in a committed relationship. I explain that sex clouds my judgment and I prefer to wait until I know we are compatible. I honestly feel that this approach has saved me so much time!!! It has absolutely weeded out some creeps very quickly!!
I met a really nice guy and we clicked instantly and hung out a few times, but despite my “speech,” he insisted on touching my leg or laying his head in my lap, and even invited me to spend the night at his house after our second time ever meeting. I felt as though I SOMEHOW wasn’t making myself clear. After about 10 days of knowing him, he randomly texted me and said he wanted to make passionate love to me. My reply was “tell me my full name.” He didn’t even remember my first name. -_- How mortifying! I politely told him it was very nice meeting him, but I no longer wanted to get to know him. I can’t imagine how I would’ve felt if I’d slept with him, hoping for more, but had ended up giving a piece of myself to a person who didn’t even know my name.
This is the most difficult test of my willpower that I’ve ever put myself through, but it’s important to me. I know that I have a lot to offer in terms of loyalty, commitment, trust, companionship, and I’m great in bed! lol I don’t want to give those benefits to just anyone. I’m not for “just anyone.” This is my preference. When I was younger, I didn’t care as much. It was only about getting my rocks off and being naked with a hot guy. However, I’ve noticed that having sex with a guy I’m CRAZY about is SO MUCH BETTER than casual sex with a stranger I’ve only known for a week. I also noticed that I rarely reached orgasm with a casual sex partner, whereas I’d reach multiple orgasms with someone I love.
It was tough reading your replies to the posts above because I personally believe it is all common sense and I wonder why/how every woman looking for a relationship doesn’t think this way?? True, it’s not a sure-fire way to get a ring, but the point is NOT to give away your body (the ONLY thing in this world you truly own) to someone in hopes of getting a commitment, just to be left feeling used. Worst feeling in the world to me. I’d rather lessen the number of potential times this happens to me by taking an extra month or two before letting him inside of me. And oh man, can you imagine the build-up when you have a true mental connection with someone and you just can’t wait any longer? (!!!)
Disclaimer: for any women not looking for a relationship, more power to ya! Get it, girl! Protect yourself from unwanted pregnancy and STDs and have fun! But when you decide that it’s no longer fun, give this a try. You will quickly see why this article is full of such great advice.
Thank you for taking the time to put this together. You have a firm believer here….
Mel says
I think Evan’s advice is a good strategy for women wanting to minimize their chances of feeling hurt, while seeking commitment from a man who cares about them, and having healthy and lasting relationships. However, I feel obligated to point out that Evan’s advice isn’t the optimal strategy for a woman looking to find the “best” partner she can get, in every sense of the word.
The dating market is competitive, and the “best” of both sides have a lot of options in the modern day. Both genders require their own forms of persuasion to drop all of their other options and commit to one person with exclusivity. This may of course involve a woman taking the risk of getting emotionally hurt, but the best things in life don’t come easy, and are worth taking a chance on.
What I’ve written doesn’t necessarily contradict Evan’s advice. However, my intention has been to clarify the potential consequence of Evan’s advice, which is that the ‘No Sex Before Commitment’ strategy may not result in a woman getting the “best” man she can get. If a woman is comfortable with this consequence, then the advice is perfectly valid.
Ella says
I agree with the theory of what you wrote Evan. However, this only works in practice, if – as a woman – you have a somewhat steady stream of men you are interested in. I don’t know what’s wrong with me (something clearly is), but I only rarely feel sexual attraction.
But when I do, it hits me like a meteor. I can count on one hand how often I found a man attractive, there was 1 in 2010, 1 in 2017 and 1 that I’m currently talking to. In the meantime I went on hundreds of dates, but I just didn’t feel at all attracted to the guys and rarely pursued something more with them. In the few times I went against my gut feeling and did pursue more, it lead to resentment on my part (which they did not deserve) because I just couldn’t fall in love with them, no matter how great they were on paper.
So when these rare instances of pheromonal fireworks happen, of course it’s near impossible to play it cool. In the first instance in 2010, I let the guy do all the courtship until we had sex after 3 months and he quickly lost interest. It fizzled out. It was quite sad.
In the second instance in 2017, I could tell very early on that he was not interested in me as a person and wouldn’t stick around (kept ghosting me for months), sex or no sex. So I gave sex without commitment, thinking that without sex it was a lost cause anyway and perhaps there would be a tiny chance of changing his mind with the added physical intimacy. He happily took the sex but treated me needlessly disrespectful outside of it. Of course, he made a 180 ° turn when he met someone he actually fancied, he immediately pursued a committed relationship with her, not even breaking up with me or telling me good-bye (just breaking off contact entirely).
Now, for the 3rd time in my life, I’ve met someone who I feel excited and giddy about again, but also his interest is luke-warm at best (he responds every two weeks or so). I would not pursue this new guy like I pursued 2017-guy or give sex in a last-ditch effort, because I know now it doesn’t make anything better anyway if I go all-in.
But I hope you can see that it’s really hard to just “date someone else”, when you have so limited options. I can’t just weed out the relationship-friendly ones from the fuckboys, when I only had 3 guys in the past 7 years that I really liked. When I pursued relationships with the perfect-on-paper guys, who I wasn’t giddy about, that only brought unhappiness on the both of us. They didn’t deserve that, they deserve a girlfriend who’s crazy about them. I would never pursue anything again where my gut-feeling tells me brother-sister-vibes at best (which is what I feel about most men I meet).
And no, it’s not that I’m particularly attracted to unavailable guys. It’s a first impression thing, very primal, where I have no idea yet if they are available or not. Either the sparks fly on first sight or they never will. I’m always quite disappointed to find out they are emotionally unavailable or not into the idea of a relationship, so I’m certainly not seeking that out (not even subconsciously). It’s just really bad luck. By having so few matches, I can’t afford to be picky and deny sex from one unreliable guy, just to get with the next reliable guy. It’s a luxury you only have when you have lots of options, who you all feel attracted to.
Do you have any tips on how I can find more men attractive? How can I change my perception of attraction so that it gets broader? It’s certainly not a conscious thing that I can easily overcome, it’s deeply subconscious, so I have no idea how to tackle that. 🙁
Emily, the original says
Ella,
By having so few matches, I can’t afford to be picky and deny sex from one unreliable guy, just to get with the next reliable guy. It’s a luxury you only have when you have lots of options, who you all feel attracted to.
But I’m thinking that even women who have lots of options aren’t equally interested in all of them. I’m wondering what those women do … do they casually date their options and wait to see which man keeps showing up and wants a relationship? What if he’s not the one she likes the best?
Evan Marc Katz says
I do not have advice on how to find more men attractive. I will only point out what you already know:
a) Finding 1 man every 5 years attractive limits your options severely.
b) There is no indicator that your intense, primal feelings correlate to anything other than sex/lust/passion – such feelings do not at all predict your long-term success as a couple.
Which is why my advice – in general – is that the best long-term relationship bet is a 7 chemistry/10 compatibility. You seem to be determined to search for a 10 chemistry and pray for some compatibility, too. That’s your prerogative; you can also extrapolate your results to see where that’s leading you…
Ella says
I would be fine with 7 or 6 or 5 or even 4 chemistry… The problem is that I either feel 0 or 10. There is no middle ground for me and I don’t know why that is. I wonder if I’m bordering asexual or something along this line. I feel repulsed by the thought of being intimate with most of the guys I meet because they give off brotherly/sisterly vibes. It’s very difficult to power through that and escalate a romance further despite your gut feeling screaming at you “ABORT MISSION ABORT MISSION ABORT MISSION”.
It’s not that I’m consciously deciding they do not look hot enough or something like that. It’s really quite hopeless. I saw a therapist about it a few years ago and he just rolled his eyes and said it’s not normal in most LTRs/marriages to feel lust/sex/passion anyway and I should just get with any reliable good guy if I wanted a relationship. Otherwise I probably don’t want the LTR enough. But I do. I just don’t think it should be necessary to decide either/or. I know lots of my girlfriends have significant others who they find attractive. It’s definitely possible. I don’t need a 10 chemistry, just any chemistry… oh well, it is what it is… 🙁
Judy says
Awesome article!!!
Addie says
Yes, crystal clear, Evan. I really, really love your clear logic. I appreciate your support of women in dating. I know that so many women complain of guys often disappearing after sex. Thank you for explaining it and clearly giving us a reasonable way of dealing with the whole dating and sex thing. For those woman who proclaim how they want to have sex too (who doesn’t) and can deal with it the same as men, I say wonderful, how cool, and good luck with that! How great to have overcome biology and science. Let’s just ignore that pesky oxytocin (way more in women than men, and I assume everyone here knows it’s the bonding hormone). And besides, do we really all need to be like men? I mean, it’s great for men to be men. Do we really need to be the same, or is it okay to have also some folks who naturally look for commitment and connection. Viva la difference! Evan is just trying to help women get a toehold to getting what they want and need. I agree with him. If some women really want to just go around and fuck whoever they choose, great, sounds fun…….sorta. Until you fall for one of these guys. Then not so fun. And I think playing Evans way, not so much potential for heartache, plus you’re being straight with the guy. I’ve heard they appreciate that.
Jillian Simmons says
Wow… one of the best articles I’ve read to save my heart from destruction. Thank you.
Nissa says
From Evan: Believe it or not, most men do not lie in order to get sex. As we’ve already established, they don’t have to. Sex is so readily available from women that there’s no incentive for a guy to have to say something untrue like, “I love you” or “I want to be your boyfriend” in order to get laid.
What’s funny about this, is that on other threads, when a few of the ladies suggested that men that want sex, should restrict themselves to women who clearly state that they want a casual relationship vs being marriage minded. However, several men objected to this, indicating that in their opinion, the quality of women who were marking ‘ok for casual sex’ was not as high as those who marked ‘LTR or marriage’. So essentially they were choosing women who self identified as ‘LTR/marriage minded/not interested in casual sex’….and then not really understanding why casual sex on the first few dates was not on the table.
Nissa says
Hey Evan – This brings up something that I don’t recall if you’ve spoken about here. Sometimes in online dating, people try to throw out hints about how they approach sexuality: “Friends first”, “marriage minded”, “traditional”, “keeping it casual at first”. But I don’ t know what your official position is on this either.
On one hand, it seems sensible to let people know where you are, so that expectations can align. On the other hand, some people don’t have a delicate touch, and can come across as hostile or overbearing.
For myself, I haven’t done it, because I have noticed that definitions are often tricky. “Traditional” to me might mean that I’m looking for a relationship instead of a booty call. To someone else, “traditional” might mean “a woman who has never had a job, gone to college or who is interested in a Quiver-level number of children.
After all, what does it mean to a man, when a woman says “I’m looking for a gentleman / a leader / an open heart”? I’ve met several men that would call themselves a gentleman based on how they put women on a pedestal, but who I would be more likely to call “less socially experienced”.
Clare says
Nissa,
I know you addressed this question to Evan, but I wanted to offer my opinion.
I think putting what you are looking for in your profile (or hints to that effect) is better than not putting it, but it’s still pretty hit and miss. As you say, many people could misinterpret what you say, project their own meanings onto it. Moreover, some people don’t even read other people’s profiles!
Personally, I put a little hint in my profile about the type of man I’m looking for, and I do it as a sort of “test.” The right man will know what I mean, resonate with it, and respond in the right way. The wrong men will miss it completely, and that is how I will know they are the wrong men. If they don’t read my profile or have to ask what I mean, then I will know they are probably not right for me.
It seems to be working, at least for now, because I am currently dating a man (exclusively) who has those qualities that I am looking for, the ones I was referring to in my profile. And he has them naturally, and he never asked me what I meant by what I said. We just seem to be on the same wavelength about it. Sorry if this sounds a bit esoteric, but I tend to approach dating in this intuitive way.
Oh by the way, I totally agree with you about some men who refer to themselves as “gentlemen.” There are many insecure men who call themselves gentlemen, but only do these things to gain validation. Or at least, I have experienced several such men. In my experience, when a man is a true gentleman, it is part of his nature, and he doesn’t make much fanfare about it. He just does, without talking about it.
Nissa says
That’s awesome that you have met someone who is on the same page as you – truly, it is gold when someone ‘gets’ you. Since I work as an intuitive, I don’t consider that word esoteric – just descriptive. If you look at your profile, you will likely find that it vibrates in a particular frequency that matches the man you found. If you want something different, just change the profile frequency. But that IS esoteric, so I confess to a bit of curiosity about how most folks were going about it.
Clare says
Nissa,
I love how you put this, and I think you get exactly what I was saying. Since you work as an intuitive (cool work, by the way!), this is not surprising.
It is exactly as you say – for a while now, I have not bothered to “state exactly what I am looking for” in my profile as YAG has suggested. Rather, I write a bio which I think reflects me on a vibrational level. I feel as if when you speak this way, the right people will get you and you will get them.
It’s hard to explain exactly how I do this, but I just write from the heart, without being too wordy and without worrying too much what it sounds like. And that will attract someone who is a vibrational match.
It’s a bit like how, when you are having a conversation in a group of people, you will say something which is something you truly think and believe, even though it may be outside of the norm. 9 people in the group will look at you in bewilderment, and that 1 person will say “I know exactly what you mean!”
Yet Another Guy says
@Nissa
After all, what does it mean to a man, when a woman says “I’m looking for a gentleman / a leader / an open heart”? I’ve met several men that would call themselves a gentleman based on how they put women on a pedestal, but who I would be more likely to call “less socially experienced”.
What is wrong with dating a less socially experienced man if he treats you well? A less socially experienced man is more likely to have less baggage than a socially experienced man. His sexual partner count is going to be significantly lower; therefore, he will be less likely to compare you to all of his other lovers.
Nissa says
@ YAG, Ah, what I meant by “less socially experienced” I think is different that you understood it (although I totally see why you would read it that way). By “socially experienced”, I was trying to be kind and was thus more vague. I meant, men who do not have a lot of experience with ladies due to not being able to read social cues, who have little to no experience not just with women but also within the general social circles. This would typically be a man who plays a lot of video games, who does not pick up on suggestions, who is inappropriate in physical contact, etc.
A man who has had a lot of sexual partners doesn’t worry me at all. He’s more likely to appreciate my skills, as he will know that they are above par.
Yet Another Guy says
@Nissa
Therein lies your problem as well as that of the majority of women! If a woman continues to use coded, indirect language with men, she should not be surprised when she does not obtain what she desires. Men use direct language, and they are not mind readers. Women who manage to state exactly what they want using direct language get what they desire and avoid what they do not desire. The phrase “friends first” is coded, indirect language. It can mean everything from do not try anything on the first date to a woman must be platonic friends with a man before she can even consider being more than friends. That is why men with options “next” women who include this phrase in their profiles. It has nothing to do with looking for immediate sexual gratification and everything to do not wanting to put forth the effort required to pursue, plan, and pay just to be a woman’s friend. Plus, neither friend dictates the terms in a true friendship. Instead of the phrase “friends first,” a woman should state something like she is seeking a man who appreciates the value that going through a proper courtship phase brings to a relationship. That way, a man knows that he is not headed down a “friend zone” rabbit hole for which he is footing the bill.
As far as to skills, a man judges his sexual partners on more than raw mechanics. The more sexual partners a man has had in his life, the more difficult it is for a woman to be special in that department. I know that that is where I am at this point in my life. However, every new woman was special before I became a man-slut in my mid-twenties.
Nissa says
I’m actually with you on this one. I found myself put off when I saw “friends first” in men’s profiles, not knowing what to make of it. When I first met the man I married, he was dating someone else and suggested that we “just be friends”. I let him know then, that “I could never just be friends with you”. I knew that I was interested in him in a non friendship, romantic way from the start. Because that is how I am, it’s harder for me to understand how others start as “only friends” – I’ve never developed feelings for anyone that didn’t start with the minimum chemistry.
I think your phrasing of “seeking a man who appreciates the value that going through a proper courtship phase brings to a relationship” is brilliant, well put.
I would be most likely to add “marriage minded” or even “looking for courtship leading to marriage” to my profile because it seems the most clear about my intentions. What I like about that is that while it shows intent, it does not lock either party into a particular timeline.
Yet Another Guy says
@Nissa
I guess what I was driving at is that it is better ask directly for what you desire without being negative. The exact phrasing does not matter as long as it clear to most men, which means that you should proof your profile with a few male friends to see if what you have written is clear to even the most socially inept man. What you are trying to convey is that you only interested in men who are willing to properly court a woman without resorting to using negative language such as “no one-night stands” or “no hookups.” The word “no” and negative phrases like “need not” should be avoided in a profile. A guy who is just looking to get laid will get the picture.
Clare says
YAG,
I appreciate your perspective on this as a man, but honestly, truly, I have not found being super specific and literal to work in online dating.
I’m always mindful of the cultural differences, so maybe it is effective in the States. But I just think it is a very clinical and inorganic way to approach dating. Personally, I would be put off by a guy who is incredibly specific in his profile. For instance, I’ve seen profiles which read something like:
“Looking for a high class lady to shower with love and treat like a queen. She should be looking for something serious and should want to share adventures with me. I’m tired of playing games and just looking for someone to appreciate everything I have to give.”
No one could fault this guy for not being clear about what he wants. But the first thing I think when I read a profile like this is “Needy! Run!!”
My point is I just think there are far more subtle ways to communicate the type of person you are and what you are looking for. There’s no need to blast someone with super specific requirements right out of the gate. It kills the romance.
The guy I’m with now actually said very little in his profile, and it’s been a delight discovering slowly that we are looking for the same thing. Much more romantic.
Like I said, maybe dating is different in the States, but in my experience, the best people don’t “give it all away” in their profile or on the first date – they show you with their actions over time.
Yet Another Guy says
@Clare
The problem with subtle is that guys do not do subtle, at least not American guys. The number one complaint I hear from men about women on online dating sites, that is, other than posting old/misleading photos and age shaving is the need to decipher a woman’s profile. Most female profiles are loaded with indirect language. A large percentage of female profiles contain negative language.
While there is a certain joy in a discovering things about a person, at my age, there is enough to learn about a woman that she can be fairly direct as to what she is seeking in her profile. The key is to avoid negativity and ambiguous phrases like “friends first,” which are more effective at turning off the guys a woman would like to meet than they are at eliminating players.
For me, a profile is not as much about selecting a woman as it is about disqualifying women. I met the better part of 100 women before I met the woman I am currently dating. I lost interest in playing the numbers game at around woman number 40, so I decided to only meet women who had complete profiles. I also started to require a pre-date telephone conversation around woman number 40. A person only gets one opportunity to make a good first impression, and that includes meeting someone from online. I am not going to go through the effort of preparing for and driving to a mutually agreed upon place only to discover within the first ten minutes that I need to exit stage left. As an older man, I was raised to pickup the tab, and trust me, that can get really expensive when playing the numbers game. I was averaging around $600.00US per month in dating expense during the months that I was actively dating in my first year of online dating, and most of those dates were drinks and appetizers.
Clare says
YAG,
I can’t comment on the coded language in women’s profiles because I don’t think I have even read any, let alone the volume you have.
But I will say that men are not much different. Many of their profiles are full of negative language such as “My children come first,” “not interested in drama,” or “no tattoos or smokers.” Charming! I immediately skip over such men because I know we will have nothing in common socially. The same goes for other tone-deaf language in their profiles like “I just want you to know that I never message a woman first” or “420 friendly.” It’s all just too much information, not too little.
I appreciate how important it is to be clear about the women you will meet when you are a man paying for most of the dates. I admit I can’t share your experience there. However, my time is equally precious to me, and I too am loathe to go to the trouble and expense and time of dressing up and driving to meet someone only to be disappointed. Not to mention, I always offer to pay my way, and sometimes the guys let me so it’s not a one-way street.
Perhaps it’s as you say, and American men are not that subtle. I can believe that. You can discuss whether you are looking for the same thing upfront, as you suggest, but personally, I like to suss that out in a private text conversation rather than putting it right up there on my profile. When it comes to whether your personalities and lifestyles are compatible, there you have to be more subtle. You have to be looking for clues in the things they say and do, as well as how you feel when you are talking to them. Compatibility is a huge part of finding a mate, and there is just no way to screen for that in a profile. You simply have to get to know them a little first. And since you wouldn’t want to be going on dates with everyone that you text because it gets too time-consuming and expensive, you have to become good at picking up on the more subtle cues.
Great example: I was texting with someone who asked me when he was going to get to meet me, but then kept being vague about nailing down plans, telling me he’d “let me know” and he “had to check with so and so first.” I immediately knew this was not someone who was going to work for me. There’s a lot you can tell about a person just from interacting with them by text or over the phone.
Marika says
Completely agree, Clare. I was, in fact, thinking the same thing about this conversation. Cultural differences aside, like Evan repeatedly says, the best profiles demonstrate who you and what you want with clever, funny anecdotes. Not serious, boring lists.
And even with the best written profiles, you’ll still get contacted by whoever feels like it. I tried to narrow down my inappropriate contacts by throwing in that I like the idea of adoption…still got contacted by 50 year olds who don’t want kids. And 20 year olds wanting who-knows-what.
Personally, I think it’s best to write a funny, witty profile, and accept that the vast majority of people who contact you will be inappropriate. That’s dating.
Clare says
Yes, I’m absolutely with you on this one.
The guy I’m dating now had a short profile – but the little that he did say communicated volumes about who he is. It was the same with my profile. Just a few sentences – but they would mean a lot to the right person.
And what you say is absolutely true: there is no way to stop the wrong people from contacting you. I was just talking to a guy friend of mine last night who was saying he feels so embarrassed about the girl he has just broken up with who was SPECTACULARLY wrong for him. I told him there was no need to feel embarrassed – anyone can step onto the path of a crazy person. You just have to become extremely skilled at weeding them out.
shaukat says
I tried to narrow down my inappropriate contacts by throwing in that I like the idea of adoption…still got contacted by 50 year olds who don’t want kids. And 20 year olds wanting who-knows-what.
Ha ha Marika, that perfectly captures the nature of online dating for attractive women:) Try wearing a ‘make America Great Again’ Trump shirt and hat in your profile pic, I guarantee you’ll still get contacted by dems and liberals.
Charlotte Phillips says
This was a great read! As a women who holds out for emotional connectivity first and consistent investment of time and energy, it was refreshing to read that it isn’t necessarily a prudish characteristic, but a confidence reservation and assessment of all aspects prior to sex! Thanks!
Sally Sayre says
I have not read every comment, however, I have read scientific research about the difference that happens biochemically to women who have sex and to men! It is a very different biochemical experience and has a lot to do with why women feel far more attached after sex than men. This is biology folks….and just something else to consider in the fray of the conversation.
Ellie says
I have been following Evan’s advice. The guy I dated 2x and talked at length (a few hours)with on the phone seemed okay. He assumed I wasn’t going to have sex, when I said when he came to town my guest room seemed inappropriate at this time. He was not a complete stranger, my Rabbi knows him. I was going to follow Evans rule. He rushed to talk about the future I slowed him down Evan style. We made a 3 rd date. I was looking forward to it . The phone call went well and msg were brief but then came an email saying how wonderful I was but he was actively looking elsewhere. I didn’t see the point in telling me that. Of all the polite ways of saying you’ve reconsidered. He wished me well. Very shabby . I felt like I was being dumped but we hadn’t gotten started . I felt 16. I think it’s the lack of men my age that made me feel so disappointed. I just wanted to date and take my time being treated nicely. I think it feels like shit at whatever stage but the recovery is commensurate with the time invested. I am 62.
Hatemail says
The title alone gives away the real purpose of this line of reasoning.
“A woman should MAKE a man wait…”
Get it?
It’s all about power, getting it, keeping it and increasing it.
We can only hope men LISTEN to your cry “MAKE HIM WAIT” and flee to the next county.
Evan Marc Katz says
That is EXACTLY what I want men like you to do.
No Name To Give says
Hatemail, you’re not really getting it. Nobody holds a gun to your head and forces you to wait for sex. Waiting is not about power but merely a tool to see if your only objective is to get in her pants or not. You’re free to bail if you don’t get sex when you want it. All that’s happened is, you’ve proven to her it was only about sex and you weeded yourself out.
ellie says
Hatemail says
Like I said, you are “in control” and since there are two of you, and you WILL cut him off cold if he has sex elsewhere while you are “in control”….
YOU setting HIS boundaries is manipulation, control and power.
Neither love, nor friendship, nor sex.
Just using.
Darryl says
Some of you article makes sense but it’s still not good advice. Why would you tell women that making a guy her boyfriend, even after the third date, should make them feel more comfortable having sex with him right away/at that point? Any man who would have sex with you and then never call you again doesn’t give a shit about lying to a woman and giving her a fake title just so he can get in her pants. He’s still gonna think she too easy and never call again, title or no title.
-Darryl
No Name To Give says
You can’t have it both ways. Either you want an easy woman or you don’t.
Steve says
Very well put, however you glanced over one point which all too many seem to ignore.
By having sex before taking the time to really get to know the other person, you can find, if the sex is good enough, that you will get caught up by lust and turn a blind eye to fundamental problems with the relationship. You fall in love with the sex, rather than with the person. In love with the sex you come to accept flaws in the person.
Over time you will likely come to see the truth, such as the other person being abusive or that they were using your just for the sex, but one can find that one has wasted years of one’s life on someone who there never was any chance of having a future with.
As you say, for those who are ok with it just being about the sex, no problem… but if you are looking for a long term monogamous relationship, you are going to want to be sure that you truly love the other person as a person, rather than accepting something less just because the sex is fantastic.
Em says
I totally agree with this, I’m in my 40s and my young self would have said it’s men who need to get a grip and grow up. It’s a valid point but men and women will never think in the same way in this subject. I’ve had a year of being single and not looking for commitment, I would tell the person i was with outright that’s all I was offering. I think expecting men to be this honest is the expectation we need to manage. Some have been actually but possibly because I was so upfront.
I’m now looking for something more and I’m in a tricky place as I’d like to understand a mans intentions, if he only wants sex I’d rather just know but I have seen that words and actions don’t always match up.
I may take this advice or at least be honest from the outset to give the guy the chance to bow out of he isn’t on the same page.
Michelle says
Thx you so much for this article. It was a blessing after experiencing a negative from a man I was dating because I was unwilling to have sex immediately while dating. This article really empowered me to stick to my values and protect myself. His loss !
Gio says
This article is so convincing and I feel I can justify my choice of not sleeping with this guy because I have just met him.
The attraction is super and it takes a lot to not sleep with him but because I are about him on an emotional level as well, I want to wait because it is not clear if he is on my same level. This is so hard to judge after only a few dates.
Many thanks
G
Grant says
If women use sex to gauge a man’s intentions, making sure he’s “into” her, does that mean men should refrain using finances, to make sure she is into him?
Tanya says
The problem is women have an idea of good guys who are DECENT. Meaning they act right without external restrictions. But I personally haven’t met even one like that. Sure they exist, I hope. If they are hot on the market they have little internal integrity to maintain self respect. Because taking Advantage of misled and confused females gives only momentarily satisfaction followed by disgust…to himself. See…I know how you guys are…
We want it all perfect romantically. If we have zero trust for a guy we like very much…that’s so sad. Men lost the privilege of a title “MAN”.
So ideally the strong male should be an example and protector and DENY female sex (not many will ask anyways) until he is confident she is the one he wants to date…yeah, right.
It’s the situation where any prospective male is convicted of a crime of being a jerk until he proves otherwise.
Example:I met a guy I just had so much fun and I liked SO much. But than he said that “you are so sexy” and it maybe have been innocent comment BUT…it changed everything. On the second date I had a full iron guard on and that natural flow was blocked. It felt awkward. I know he couldn’t say as the first time “I felt so good with you” because no matter how I tried to be relaxed I looked at him as a predator…
Now add to this I couldn’t find anyone I liked at all, not to mention that much. It’s an awful world we created.
Tanya says
Men can commit to anything as long as it is hard to enforce. Men read such blogs, too, ha-ha. So the method to wait until commitment doesn’t work. Any methods DO NOT WORK as long as a man has bad intentions.
The self-interest of any human is to be DECENT. Let’s repeat it for you, Evan: THE AGENDA OF EVERY MAN, and EVERY WOMAN WHILE BEING INCARNATED IS TO BECOME A BETTER HUMAN.
If 100% of men will destroy their integrity for getting laid…sorry, but they are not suitable for any woman.
Humans ARE responsible for their moral cleanness. BRING NO HARM TO ANOTHER. BRING JOY AND HAPPINESS TO THOSE ON YOUR LIFE JOURNEY.
This is not a practice life. Every moment WE ARE RESPONSIBLE for all our activities. Would you excuse a drug addict for stubbing someone? They act out of extreme need (much more potent than to get laid, right?), and it is in their momentary interest.
Men are not exempt from judgment.
Nobody teaches another to be healthy and good. It’s an internal compass of a spirit that guides us in our decisions.
As well as a lock on a car doesn’t teach a thieve to stay away and treat that car well. Car thieve won’t respect any vehicle, even with the most advanced defense system.
Anyone who plays games is dishonest and simply no good. He OR she won’t magically turn to a decent human just because they waited 7-10 months. These guys usually have 3-5 women at the time anyways.
WARNING:
Evan, if you teach people (or trying), make sure you aware of personal consequences. You WILL be held responsible.
Jamie says
Thank you, Evan, for this article! I had a guy tell me I was playing a game when I told him his sexts were husband requests. I had grown tired of him disappearing. We didn’t even have sex, but just foreplay. He recently unblocked me on social media and after not speaking for a year, I see his friends showing up where I am consistently. Someone is obsessed and it isn’t me anymore! Thanks again!
ManDime says
I’m laughing at this post since it is hilarious. Others might not find it funny but it is. The funniest part is calling women the CEOs and men interns. Some interns are just too good for the company and run their own lives making them hard to catch entrepreneurs that actually can outsell the commodity in the same market. Basically, the best ones can just leave simply for the fact alone that he knows they have any expectations at all. Not because he is even an unworthy or bad person but because it is poor management that she doesn’t really know what she wants or expects him to be her obedient subordinate.
Look, not all CEOs are as great as they think they are and their expectations can be applied to themselves but they don’t own the intern. When EMKs women clientele understand this they might get somewhere. And we wonder why educated, professional women have a difficult time; entitlement. Add looks, multiple it by entitlement x 1000. Education isn’t intelligence or wisdom and making money doesn’t mean you can buy love. Figure it out ladies so dating can go back to normal.
Evan Marc Katz says
Men like you are fired. It’s elegant in its simplicity.
Tee says
Your article is excellent for women that don’t want to be fucked and dumped. Those that just want to have sex and don’t want or need a boyfriend. Save this article because at some point. You’ll get sick of just sleeping with men just to be doing something…..
If you’re going just jump in bed and you don’t care about being in a relationship. Well. At least set your price and get paid…..
Rob says
This article relates to egocentric women and the bet simps who stick around and wait for sex. This article does not apply to a high value guy who understands that time is the most valuable commodity and dare not waste time on a woman who accepts expensive dates (knowing fully well she has no sexual interest in that man). Instead explains what he want s upfront and if not received moves on to someone else who is willing. Its all in the game.
Ced says
Eff everything about this post. I just gave the advice to my son. Any woman who places stipulations and time limits on sex views sex as a tool to manipulate and elicit a desired behavior. This will continue throughout the relationship. RUN 🏃🏾 and don’t look back.