The #1 Thing You SHOULD Pay Attention to After Your First Date

You ever go out on an incredible date? The connection was real, the chemistry is intense, and you feel like you just met someone with real long-term potential? Of course, you have. But what usually happens afterward? Look at your history and you’ll see: there’s virtually no correlation between an amazing first date and a successful long-term-relationship. Check out this new Love U Podcast video to see what you SHOULD pay attention to after your next great first date.

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Hey, it’s Evan Marc Katz, Dating Coach for smart, strong, successful women and your personal trainer for love.

Today, I’m going to share one piece of advice that will instantly shift the way you look at dating. It’s so simple. You won’t believe that you didn’t think of it yourself.

Now, before we get to that, let’s talk about what usually happens on a date.

If there’s this guy and you don’t feel that much chemistry with, you find all the reasons in the world to not see him again. He’s too short. He’s too fat. He’s too bold. He’s too eager, too negative, too sensitive, too talkative, too quiet, too something. And you leave the date feeling like you’d probably have to have like six beers to consider kissing him. And then when he follows up with you the next day, you cringe at how needy he seems. You don’t want to have to talk yourself into going out with the guy and you shouldn’t.

Now, let’s flip that around.

Go on a date. He’s cute, funny, charming, confident, successful. Just the right amount of nice guy and bad boy. And you are hooked. Now that you’re hooked, you magically lose the ability to think critically. If the guy texts you a week later, you’re OK with it. If the guy texts you to come over late at night, you’ll go to his place or at least highly consider it. The guy continues to text you sporadically week after week, month after month. You still give him the benefit of the doubt.

Why?

Because chemistry like this is so very rare. You’re not going to do anything to ruin it.

You’ll do whatever it takes to keep it alive, even if it means ignoring things like effort and boundaries to the next thing you know, you’re sleeping with the guy once a week for three straight months and he’s still shown no interest in being your boyfriend.

How did this happen?

How do you prevent that from happening again?

Listen up.

Tattoo this on your forearm.

Don’t pay attention to what happens on the date. Pay attention to what happens after the date.

Don’t pay attention to what happens on the date. Pay attention to what happens after the date.

Any guy can show you an amazing time over dinner and drinks. But the only way to tell if he’s serious about you is how quickly he follows up to make another date.

Texting to say he had fun is not a date.

Texting to check in a few days later is not a date.

In other words, if he hasn’t made plans with you quickly after your last date, he’s just keeping his options open, hoping he finds someone he likes better.

Again, this isn’t that you should go out with every puppy dog who shows interest in you and calls the next day. This is simply to say that when you’re agonizing about whether a guy’s actually boyfriend material, don’t pay too much attention to how much you like him.

Pay attention to how much effort he’s making to see you.

This is a far more accurate picture of his feelings than the chemistry that you felt when you were together. Any excuse he has for not making a date is just that an excuse.

Paying attention to a guy’s efforts, not just his charm, will save you years of wasted time and emotion on the guy who doesn’t want to commit to you and allow you to focus exclusively on the guys who do.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Iggypop

    In some ways I feel like in addition to EMK being a coach for smart, strong, successful women, he’s also a really great advocate for those actual nice guys who do want to get into a committed relationship. A positive antidote to the negativity of the Incel movement. Good stuff, Evan!

    1. 1.1
      Bbq

      Iggypoop

      Incels are actually hilarious if you think of them as some kind of dark revenge of the nerds type comedy figures.

    2. 1.2
      mr_b

      You’d be surprised how often women reject men they initially were attracted too because the men expressed interest too soon.

      Every man has a story about this.

  2. 2
    Henry

    There is no such thing as an incel.

    Every man can have sex. Even men who are born without arms and legs(Nick Vujicic) and men who suffered from horrible desfigurations taken in the line of duty(Tyler Ziegel) still manage to get married and to have children.

    Men who identify as ”involuntary celibates” are men whose standards in women don’t match what they themselves bring to the table. Most of these guys want women who are much younger or much more physically attractive than them, and since they lack power(Donald Trump jr) and they lack money(Boris Johnson) and they lack social standing(Jair Bolsonaro), they fail to attract the women they desire, ignoring the women who actually want them.

    Well, Iggypop, it’s not necessariy nice guys. I know a kid who is athletic, tall, but(in his own words) women only began to pay him attention when he began to earn 5 million euros, after taxes, per year.

    In my friend’s case, his lack of success with women wasn’t due to a lack of physical attractiveness but one of self-confidence. Once that got fixed, women were throwing themselves at him in droves. Including super models.

    1. 2.1
      Buck25

      Henry,

      One young veteran I know lost both legs above the knee, plus half of one arm, to an IED. An incel? Oh hell no! That guy is literally a woman magnet; gets more action than 95% of guys with all limbs intact! How does he do it? Simple; he has a great personality, a positive attitude, an infectious sense of humor that seems to rub off on everyone around him, and he doesn’t waste any time feeling sorry for himself; if he wants something, he goes after it, without worrying about having any disadvantage, because in his own mind, he doesn’t have any. Suggest there’s anything he can’t do, and he’ll promptly show you he can! I’ve never known anyone who has met him, who didn’t like him. Most women seem to find him irresistible!

      Contrast that, with most of these so-called incels who spend more time whining, complaining, and having a pity party than on working on themselves trying to become better men; they’d rather blather on with a million excuses for why their situation is all women’s fault instead of their own.The difference is pretty obvious..

  3. 3
    Noquay

    Evan
    Yep, overall, paying attention is what both men and women need to do. True, finding someone one is attracted to and potentially compatible with can be difficult but that does not excuse allowing oneself to be treated with anything but respect.

    1. 3.1
      Buck25

      Absolutely correct, Noquay! If someone doesn’t show you basic respect and consideration, then it’s time to look for someone else! That goes for both genders.

      1. 3.1.1
        Noquay

        Buck
        Truth. Not just respect for you but also for others. How do they treat cashiers, waitstaff, their family. They start out on their best behavior with you but tend to show their true colors with folk they’re not trying to impress.

  4. 4
    Noquay

    Henry
    You’re spot on. I feel bad for them, being rejected constantly, but there are men that do not understand that things such as use of foul language, racist remarks, unkempt appearance are not attractive to most women.

    1. 4.1
      Bbq

      Noquay

      I don’t think what your describing is your typical intel tho. Maybe the racism but it’s probably more closeted and maybe only exists in online land. There are loads of guys who are unkept and or use foul language who have no trouble with a lot of women and lets face it, the same is true for racists. Incels are more like angry nerds who’ve latched onto a weird philosophy so they feel like they’re a part of something bigger. It’ll all seem very funny in 20 years.

      1. 4.1.1
        Noquay

        Bbq
        The dudes I’m referring to likely are not computer savvy, may or may not be online. Dudes that sadly, have little to offer, often just want sex, do not want or cannot maintain a rship, and react to women who (even politely) reject them with rage. Cannot imagine dating someone with a constant foul mouth and grooming/hygiene challenged but that’s me. I realize I let slip with an occasional f bomb but it’s generally after doing myself some sort of injury involving a hammer AND with no one in earshot but the dog and the chickens. Didn’t know incels were an actual “movement”. You’re right, in 20 or perhaps even 10 years this will be a non issue as most aspects of pop culture are. Methinks we will be otherwise occupied dealing with climate change, pandemics, and an ongoing recession.

        1. Bbq

          Noquay

          Well they think their a movement, that’s why I was describing them that way. Those guys you describe are just rude bums I guess. But a lot of them have women to match.

          Your right, the future is going to be a hell of an adventure! However I can’t see all things that are issues now being total non issues tho they will have morphed no doubt.

        2. Henry

          Noquay,

          Plenty of men have little to nothing to offer to women, and lots of these men manage to get one-night stands, friendships with benefits, and committed long-term relationships.

          It’s not what they have or not to offer what is keeping ”incels” from finding themselves a girlfriend, or a hook-up, if that’s what they’re looking for.

          What’s keeping them from fulfilling their desires for sex or romantic companionship from the opposite sex is the hatred they feel for women, the envy and jealously they feel over men like Sean O’Pry, and their absolute refusal to date women who are in their league in terms of physical looks/social standing.

          They could even get with women who are below them, but they will not even consider the possibility. The vast majority of incels are young men who only want women who look like a 19 year old Selena Gomez, while looking like a 30-62 year old Steve Buscemi.

          Now, I don’t care that some men, or even if it was millions of men, can’t get a girlfriend or can’t get sex to save their lives, but the problem is that incels aren’t a harmless group of young men who just happen to be sexually frustrated.

          These men have a tremendous sense of self-loathing. They spend their days complaining about women and talking about Hollywood A-list level of looks men and saying (attractive) women only want men who look like that.

        3. Buck25

          Noquay,
          Henry and Bbq pretty much sized up the “incels” and their “movement”. Mostly an online community of young guys, usually without much in the way of social skills angry that they can’t get dates with the most attractive young women (who they refer to as “Stacys”) and resentful of the good-looking guys who routinely get dates with attractive young women (they refer to these guys as “Chads” ). They are sort of equal opportunity haters, in that they despise both “Stacys” and “Chads” equally, and blame both for the incels’ dating problems. Most are harmless to everyone but themselves, and rather comical, in a pathetic sort of way, but occasionally one of them goes postal (see Elliott Rodger as an example of the latter). They absolutely believe that this is all due to looks, despite the fact that most are at least average looking, (through not necessarily well-groomed). As Bbq says they’re mostly just angry, hateful nerds, who find some validation from their online brethren. Most of them could easily fix their own issues, if only they weren’t so totally absorbed with their hatred and envy of others that they can’t see what their own real problems are.

        4. James

          I have to agree with Henry, Buck, and Bbq. The whole concept of being an “incel” is just patently absurd. You can ALWAYS find a member of the opposite sex willing to sleep with you, because there will ALWAYS be members of the opposite sex who are hungrier than you are. The only catch is you might have to lower your standards to a level you are not comfortable with. And if you just have a positive attitude and an engaging manner then you probably won’t even need to lower your standards.

          These guys just have a crappy outlook on life and are looking for someone else to blame for their problems. When they claim “women” won’t sleep with them they are referring only to the topmost tier of women – they act like less attractive or older women don’t exist because these women are effectively invisible to them. Sure, they might be “incels” to the extent that they can’t sleep with the exact members of the opposite sex that they desire the most, but so what – by that standard the overwhelming majority of women are “incels” as well.

          It’s so much easier to blame someone else rather than yourself. I think this attitude is present even in some married men who claim their wives won’t sleep with them – “married incels” if you will. Most women need to feel desired by their partner in order to feel desire in return, and many wives lose interest in sex only because the husband lost interest first. But the husband can’t admit he lost interest in sex with his wife because he thinks it sounds unmanly, so he blames it all on his wife instead. Obviously this won’t be true all the time since people can lose interest in sex for a variety of reasons having nothing to do with their partner, and people will also intentionally withhold sex for manipulative purposes. But I think it probably holds true in a large number of cases.

        5. Bbq

          James

          I’d be very surprised if you were right about the wives going off sex for those reasons for the most part. Quite often I think the man who’s touch now repulses her is more or less the same one she desired for whatever reasons at first.

          The man isn’t at the heart of blame for all things ya know. Women are capable of fault uninspired by men, despite what the feminists teach ya.

  5. 5
    Noquay

    Henry
    Just went through such a scenario; tell me if this fits into intel world or not. Since our cell tower is kaput, I’ve been using the net at a local bar/restaurant. I have a meal there to support the business every time I go there to work. One day last winter, there’s this scruffy, potbellied dude, about my age, 60, talking to the barkeep and every third word is an f bomb. I glanced that way on occasion wondering what is this dudes problem. His nickname is Rambo tho he bears zero resemblance to the movie character. Dude finally leaves. I eventually ask for the check and the waitperson comes over and says Rambo has already paid and here’s his phone number, he wants you to call him. He had already left so I could not refuse the payment for the meal which he appeared he couldn’t afford. Later, the waitpersons were angry I did not call Rambo and said he’s a very lonely man. No surprise there. I chose to keep my mouth shut. Last week our boy is there again to pick up a to go order. As he leaves he hisses “b$&@#! as he passes my table. He apparently felt I “owed” him attention for paying for a meal I did not wish him to pay for. That he had to swear at me on his way
    out the door does bespeak of a certain amount of contempt for women, at least this one. I felt it was a perfect example of what to pay attention to as per Evans post.

    1. 5.1
      Bbq

      Noquay

      I know you weren’t asking me so sorry for butting in here – I think in order to be an Incel you have to refer to yourself as an Incel. It’s like not all rascists are skinheads or neo-nazis – you’ve gotta think of yourself as such and identify that way. Also in the situation you describe a real Incel wouldn’t have got mad at you in person, they’d have probably come home and wrote a manifesto about it on reddit. Oh and they probably wouldn’t have actually had the guts to pay for the meal in the first place.

  6. 6
    Noquay

    Whoops Henry, supposed to be incel not intel. Auto correct strikes again

  7. 7
    Henry

    Noquay,

    Yeah, that Rambo guy was being pretty rude about the way he went trying to get a date, which is one of the reasons why he’s probably had a hard time dating so far.

    There are plenty of men out there who do believe they are entitled to a woman’s time and sexual attention because he paid for the date, or drove her there and took her back home.

    And then there are those men who have had girlfriends and even ex-wives and still they hold on to self-destructive worldviews of, ”if you aren’t 6 feet tall no woman is ever going to want to be seen next to you,” and then they proceed to complain about being 5’8” or 5’9” when that’s the average height for men in America.

    Then you have the men who see a few young women getting married to men who are much older than themselves, they are wealthy, so these guys will go to their graves claiming all women only care about money.

    Frankly, it gets annoying when you’re on a dating forum/relationships blog and you see lots and lots of high quality posts from women talking about their genuine dating problems and the issues they deal with, and then a few posts down, you come across guys complaining that because they’re bald they’re never going to have a supermodel girlfriend.

    And I’m a guy. I don’t have to deal with this on my day-to-day life. But most women do. They have to deal with all this bitterness, entitlement, arrogance, low self-esteem in men, and self-loathing, and then there’s tinder, which makes the guys who use the app believe male fashion models are having sex with every woman in the world because SOME women are using the app to hook-up with attractive men, and these young dudes feel left out.

  8. 8
    Buck25

    Henry,

    You pretty much nailed it in this last post! *slow clap*

  9. 9
    Yet Another Guy

    @Buck25 and others

    There is getting laid and then there is getting a girlfriend. We talk about the incels not trying hard enough. However, if one is a guy with an SMV of 5 or less, getting NSA sex is going to take a lot of working on oneself. Why because so many guys who have an SMV of 6 or higher are willing to date down in order to obtain NSA sex that women can be much more selective when it comes to sex only, including women who will never reach an SMV of 5 irrespective of how much time and effort they invest in self-improvement. I have mentioned many times that most guys cannot routinely get NSA sex. They have to be in a relationship in order to obtain sex. Sure, one of these guys will get lucky from time to time. However, their experience with women is nothing like that of the top 20%, not remotely so. Guys who are in the top 20% can get laid on a regular basis without much in the way effort. It is these men who bring to the forefront the female behavior that outrages the incels. The reality is that most of the incels will never obtain NSA sex unless they magically develop enough charm to arouse the bottom 20% of women that men look past. As we have also discussed many times, women describe what they are looking for from a man when it comes to their comfort needs. Taking that tripe as gospel is going to land a man in the friend-zone more often than not. What women rarely describe when asked what they seek in a partner is what they need to meet their arousal needs. It is no surprise to me that men who listen to the former get frustrated when they fall short when it comes to the later. A nice guy who does not have at least a little bit of bad boy in him is generally going to be unsuccessful with women when it comes to anything other than friendship.

    1. 9.1
      Bbq

      Yet Another Guy

      Oh cmon man, look around you, a wide variety of uggo and very out of shape men are paired up with women, most of whom aren’t any kind of bad boy or charmer. So they can’t get nsa sex from every other woman? So what? Life ain’t a James Bond movie. And if they do have charm then it’s surely a greater equaliser to looks than it is when possessed by women (which is unfair on them likewise).

      Do some women have an idiotic pre-occupation with the top twenty percent? Irl I’m not sure that many really do. Although I will say if you look to their movies and TV and books this is definitely a prevailing fantasy. Groupies coming overwhelmingly in female form is another manifestation too. But most women arent choosing to be groupies.

      The behaviour might exist in some and on another lower and perhaps more subconscious level might affect society to an extent (as does male behaviour). When seen by men, does it look pathetic and sycophantic? Yes. But it ain’t worth writing a math paper and a manifesto about and becoming a deranged nerd over.

      A fair portion of women do need to and will get their heads out their asses about some things, but this one is a total non issue.

      1. 9.1.1
        Emily, to

        BBq,
        “Oh cmon man, look around you, a wide variety of uggo and very out of shape men are paired up with women …”
        I am actually going to agree with you. You don’t have to be James Dean to be having loads of sex. There is plenty of NSA sex to be had by … gasp … the old, the below 5 SMVs … People who rate themselves in the higher SMV range tend to think those less attractive aren’t having sex … but they are. 🙂

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, to

          Have you had many unfiltered conversations with very average to less than average guys? Guys tend to lie when they are not getting sex. They sure as hell will not tell a woman that it is difficult for them to obtain sex outside of a committed relationship. That is like putting a knife to one’s throat. How many guys are given the opportunity to have NSA within thirty minutes of meeting an attractive woman? It happened many times when I was in the dating pool. One woman was bold enough to lean over and ask the question, “Would you think I was a slut if I wanted to go home with you?” That was after one drink and she was a woman with whom most peer-age men and many younger men would want to have sex. Her cellphone sounded like a pinball machine until she turned off notifications from the dating sites.

          I stand by my assertion that women are more selective than men when it comes to NSA sex. Most men will have sex with anything that walks, which renders a man’s desire to have sex with a woman insignificant. That is not remotely true for women. Most guys can have sex with a woman if they are willing to commit or date down far enough. It is the guys who routinely get NSA sex from desirable women without having to commit that pisses the incels off. These men are the Chads of the world. I lived the life of a Chad while I was in the dating pool. I had sex with smart, attractive, powerful women, women who often earned several times what I earn and I earn a good living. My girlfriend earns almost three times what I earn and she was married to a medical doctor whose yearly income is over seven digits (he is a specialist with his own practice). How many average guys can do that?

        2. Emily, to

          YAG,
          “I stand by my assertion that women are more selective than men when it comes to NSA sex.”
          And I stand by my assertion that women are not selective. At least not all women. I remember being in my 20s. I had a girlfriend who was a model, and you would have been shocked by the guys she went home with. I had another friend who was very petite and very cute. Same story. I know it fits the male narrative better, that women must be overcome with lust to have NSA sex with them, but it just isn’t true in every case. . That isn’t to say I’ve never had NSA sex with someone I was really into, but more often than not it was more a crime of opportunity.

        3. Emily, to

          Yag,
          And what you relayed with the woman coming on to you … I’ve done that. One time, I wanted to see what it would be like to make the first physical move. I’d only verbally come on to a men before.The guy I picked … I picked because I’d gotten signals of interest from him and I thought he’d say yes. Made up some bogus reason for him to come to may apartment. You get the picture.

        4. Bbq

          Yet another guy

          What is your point tho? So what if your right? What difference does it make if women are more selective about nsa sex and all guys can’t easily get it with whatever woman?

          What does this prove other than its own insignificant point and what does it matter to anything?

        5. jo

          Emily, having had these experiences as a woman, 😉 I agree with you. Also, I get suspicious of men who brag about their sexual appeal and prowess, because IRL, the men who do that are unappealing more often than not. The appealing men don’t need to do that.

          Not to bash on YAG (who knows, he may be a Chad), but that combined with bragging about having landed his amazing girlfriend makes me wonder if he loves her for who she is, rather than just being glad to have won a ‘trophy’ over whom he can have bragging rights. I wouldn’t want my bf to talk about me that way to others.

        6. Emily, to

          Jo,
          “Emily, having had these experiences as a woman, I agree with you. ”
          I mean, women have NSA sex for a variety of reasons that often have very little to do with the guy they have it with. I’m sure it’s not that much different for men. But for some men, being blatantly propositioned must be a powerful experience. The guy I mentioned …he would not go away.
          “Also, I get suspicious of men who brag about their sexual appeal and prowess, because IRL, the men who do that are unappealing more often than not. The appealing men don’t need to do that.”
          I agree. I knew singer Kelly Clarkson’s marriage was over before she announced it publicly because she was bragging about all the sex they were having. People who are having that much sex don’t’ talk about it. They are too busy doing it!

        7. Bbq

          Emily, to and jo

          I’m gonna have to disagree with you both that the men who brag about getting a lot of sex are lying or unappealing to women. Ime they’re often not lying, tho they are usually unlikeable to everyone outside the women they pick up mainly in and around clubs and their own dumbass friends. They’re not all liars, only stupid.
          There’s jersey shore types like that everywhere in the world and they’re not just the young neither. They are getting sex and bragging about it.

        8. Emily, to

          BBQ,
          “I’m gonna have to disagree with you both that the men who brag about getting a lot of sex are lying or unappealing to women.”
          I don’t know about other women, but a man bragging about his previous sexual conquests or all the other women who are besotted with him turns me off completely. It shuts my factory down! If he has all these other options, he should exercise them. Plus, women know instinctively when meeting a men whether or not he’s in demand. He doesn’t need to tell her. Do you think Jimi Hendrix had to announce what a great guitar player he was?

        9. Bbq

          Emily to

          I’m not disagreeing with ya that it should be unappealing and I’d think the women who didn’t mind it pretty stupid, but nonetheless I’ve seen it happen plenty.

          Did Muhammad Ali have to announce what a great boxer he was?

        10. Emily, to

          BBQ,
          “Did Muhammad Ali have to announce what a great boxer he was?”

          Exactly. It’s the lyrics in “Uptown Funk” …. “Don’t brag about it. Come show me.” 🙂

        11. jo

          Emily, same here. Even if a man was appealing at first to me, the moment he starts bragging about his appeal, my interest and attraction for him plummet to zero. Bragging smacks of desperation. Desperation doesn’t attract anyone.

          TBH, reading YAG’s comment from the beginning, I got the sense that he and his gf had broken up, because his comment was exactly like the ones he used to write on here, banging on about how attractive he is. When he and gf seemed to be doing well, his whole tone gentled and laid off the bragging. So I thought from this newest comment that they must have broken up… but who knows.

          I think that’s why, regardless of whether you’re in a relationship or single, you need to find ways to make your life fulfilling so that you don’t come off as desperate to others. That would not help the single ones to land a mate, and if one is already in a relationship, it identifies that there might be a problem to address.

        12. Emily, to

          Jo
          “Bragging smacks of desperation. Desperation doesn’t attract anyone.”
          I think it also smacks of bullshitting, which is such a turn off. Do you think Warren Beatty went around talking about all the women he was getting? He didn’t have to.
          “TBH, reading YAG’s comment from the beginning, I got the sense that he and his gf had broken up, because his comment was exactly like the ones he used to write on here, banging on about how attractive he is.”
          And the thing is … no matter how good looking you are, you won’t appeal to everyone. In fact, you won’t appeal to a lot of people, or you’ll appeal somewhat but not as much as someone else. It’s life.
          “When he and gf seemed to be doing well, his whole tone gentled and laid off the bragging.”
          I agree.

        13. Bbq

          Emily to

          I meant he announced it constantly.
          And truth is women don’t know things like that instinctively at all. Bragging might seem like it should be dumb or a turn off, and I’d prefer that it was, I’m just telling what I’ve seen. There are plenty who brag openly and are still in demand, repulsive tho it may seem to you and me.

        14. Emily, to

          Bbq,
          “And truth is women don’t know things like that instinctively at all.”
          Of course they do. You don’t think it’s obvious to women by a man’s confidence, his ability to approach her, his appearance and his energy whether or not he’s done well with women? I have a female friend who is very attractive, warm, friendly and fun. Men approach her often. It was no surprise to me to learn that she was popular in high school and has had no shortage of dates. All I had to do was watch her for a few minutes to figure that out. I’m sure guys who approach her pick up on that, too.

        15. Jeremy

          Chicken and egg, Emily?

        16. Emily, to

          Emily, to
          “Chicken and egg, Emily?”
          The word “confidence” triggered you, right? 🙂 I’m not getting into a conversation about whether confidence is innate or acquired or what types there are or what types should be valued .. You can go back and forth with BBQ about that. 🙂 Like most things in life, a woman just feels it emanating from a man. 🙂

        17. Bbq

          Emily, to

          Yeah sure, they just feel it emenating with their intuitive knowledge and instinctively know. Of course of course.

        18. Emily, to

          BBQ,
          Because people don’t convey anything about themselves non-verbally.

        19. Jeremy

          Of course people convey non-verbal things all the time, Emily. The interesting thing, though, is the assumption that the non-verbal is more truthful than the verbal. The notion that one can lie with one’s words, but that one’s non-verbal cues do not lie. The idea that if a woman intuits something, her intuition is more accurate than her effortful thinking. Systematic errors. Particularly if a man believes – about himself – something false.

        20. Buck25

          “You don’t have to be James Dean to be having loads of sex.”

          Emily,

          Totally agree on that! Good thing for me, as if looking like that were a requirement, I wouldn’t have been getting much even in my younger days! I’m not ugly but I’m certainly no matinee idol either, lol! Fortunately, confidence and a fun personality go a long way with a lot of women.

          I’ve noticed over the years that women have casual sex for a lot of reasons, including just on impulse, being bored, just to feel validated, getting even with someone, being just plain horny; the list of possibilities is endless, much as it is with men. It’s not always about lust for that particular guy. As one woman told me quite a while back, “Sometimes, a woman just wants to get laid!” Women can, of course, be more selective than most men are, but just how selective depends on what her objective is at the moment. I’ve had a couple of instances similar to what YAG describes, but I wouldn’t say it’s been a common occurrence in my own experience. Perhaps it’s more common these days in the age group YAG dates, but I think it usually takes more than a half hour or so to get to NSA sex with women I’ve been with.

          As far as a woman propositioning a man, yes, it’s flattering, but given the above, I wouldn’t read any more into it than that; she could be doing that for a number of different reasons; all depends on what she feels in the moment, and that’s not always obvious, especially with someone you’ve just met. Not anything to get overly egotistical about, any more than getting rejected is anything to get overly discouraged about. NO ONE gets every woman he wants, every single time; that’s reality (as opposed to wishful thinking). YAG gets a bigger/better selection of women than I get? Ok, good for him. Beyond that, it’s not making my own situation better or worse. I have no interest in getting into a “pecker measuring “ contest with anyone; what’s the point? I’m going to get what I get, not what someone else gets.

          As far as bragging goes, that’s to be expected…when you’re in high school, or maybe in your early twenties. No need for it; just be seen with attractive women, be happily nonchalant about it, and that tells any woman who might be remotely interested that maybe this guy has something to be at least curious about. I think they call it “social proof” these days; whatever, it seems to work. Sometimes, less is more. Parenthetically, I always get amused, when another old guy in the country club locker room (often older than I am) regales everyone else with tales of his exploits with his (far younger) mistress the night before. I just have to bite my lip to keep from laughing, while imagining the young woman recounting her side of the experience to her more contemporary girlfriends. I sure would like to be a fly on the wall for that conversation!

          Of course, most of this is bar scene stuff, and I outgrew my taste for that scene quite a few years ago. Still, whatever the social setting, both genders pick up on the vibe and energy someone gives off; like physical chemistry, a lot of it is subconscious, or so it seems to me. Obviously, relaxed confidence and a positive personality generally help, but not everyone wants the same personality traits in exactly the same combination. One woman’s hopeless reject is another woman’s dream, and vice versa; there’s no “all-purpose magic formula”; but then, that’s what keeps life interesting, isn’t it?

        21. jo

          Well, Jeremy, that’s just it. Words do convey a lot of hidden truth, even if the actual words themselves tell a different story. You read the words, yet as you get a bit older and wiser, you can also read between the lines and question why someone writes what they do, and surmise something about their situation.

          Buck25 is right, IME, in his assessments, which is why my suspicions were raised at a certain comment earlier: it was not written as if by someone in a happy relationship. It definitely raises question marks if an older gent brags about prowess, then brags about a gf making lots of money and her ex making lots of money. These are not things an older, wiser person typically brags about when secure. Words convey more than one might expect.

        22. Emily, to

          Buck25,
          On another post you wrote you don’t understand women. I don’t know why. You were completely on point with this post. I bet you are a fun guy to hang out with. You don’t lead with bragging, you’re not overthinking everything, you’re not hung up on the woman’s motivation (it’s impossible to know until you get to know her). You just kind of go with it. 🙂

        23. Emily, to

          Jeremy,
          “The interesting thing, though, is the assumption that the non-verbal is more truthful than the verbal. ”
          I didn’t say that, but the post was about bragging. When someone seems to be bragging, you assume the other person is either exaggerating or outright lying, so you dismiss what they say and focus on all the non-verbal cues. Of course, you don’t know for sure if the other person is lying if you just met; you have to go with your gut. You yourself have written about how bad people are at knowing who they are and what they want, so it’s probably best to take what they initially say about themselves with a grain of salt. I have a relative who would describe himself as compassionate and caring. If your car breaks down and you need a ride, he’s your guy, but you can forget about him being able to provide any emotional support, so I wouldn’t describe him as he describes himself. Who’s right?

        24. Jeremy

          Emily, my point was never to say that words are truthful or self aware. Rather, it was to say that body language and nonverbal cues are not necessarily any more so, contrary to what intuition might imply. How much thinking is “over-thinking”? Doesn’t it depend on how much is needed to get the right answer? Would not less be…. underthinking?

          Reading between the lines is often revealing, I agree Jo. I’d only quibble about one point: the word “secure.” To what does it refer? A man might be insecure in his relationship, and so discuss money and prowess. Or he might be deeply in love, but insecure about money, having come from a marriage where he earned less to a relationship where he earned much less, in a world that values men for earning. Reading between the lines might hilight insecurity, but not reveal what the insecurity is about. Is a little knowledge better than none?

        25. Bbq

          Emily, to

          Yeah women can just tell all these things with feminine intuition. They can manifest whatever they want using the secret too.

        26. Emily, to

          Jeremy,
          “How much thinking is “over-thinking”? Doesn’t it depend on how much is needed to get the right answer? Would not less be…. underthinking?”
          I’m probably the wrong person to ask that question. I think most people overthink everything..

        27. Jeremy

          Heh. And I think the opposite, Emily. The world seems to corroborate my view, though.

        28. jo

          Emily and Jeremy,

          Emily, about over- vs. under-thinking: I wonder if your answer is a reflection on the people who happen to be in your life. While in your life, you see most people over-thinking, in my life it’s just the opposite. I see people under-thinking constantly – just reflexively following what their ‘group’ does, whether it’s taking dangerous macho stances to an extreme, or taking a social justice cause too far and accusing everyone. They’d rather go along with the flow than critically think about the situation and make a choice based on principles and knowledge of the facts. While I’d quote Socrates to them about the unexamined life not worth living, I don’t want to end up as Socrates did. 😉

          Jeremy, to answer your question, another quote: ‘A little learning is a dangerous thing, drink deeply, or taste not the Pierian spring.’ Yes, I think a little knowledge is good to have, because every piece of knowledge gained doesn’t exist in isolation. It’s added to all the other pieces over time to contribute to a person’s wisdom and ability to read the room, whether it’s a situation or another person. In the decades I’ve interacted with and had relationships with men, I’ve learned to beware of bragging. Probably our thoughts are in fact very similar when it comes to confidence, especially as men portray it. I don’t want to bring it up because Emily doesn’t want to discuss confidence (wink), but our experiences along those lines seem to correlate pretty well.

        29. Jeremy

          We probably do agree, Jo. And re: learning, a lot of knowledge always starts from a little. Only problem comes when we can’t recognize a little from a lot. We end up on the western side of the Dunning-Kruger curve.
          All my life I’ve wondered about mental compartmentalization. How people can be proficient and knowledgeable in one sphere, but completely fail to extrapolate their own knowledge into other spheres. Like Kahneman’s famous example of statisticians – aware of statistical methodology, but unable to use it in their own lives. But notwithstanding this, sometimes the reverse is true – we under-compartmentalize. Because we are experts in one arena, we assume we are experts in another, falsely. My wife’s uncle is chief of gastroenterology at one of Canada’s most prestigious teaching hospitals. He is a leading expert in gastroenterology, which leaves me with no end of jokes and word pun humour. But he also thinks he’s an expert at politics, and approaches politics with the same confidence he does colonoscopies. His body language is the same, what he exudes matches that which is exuded back at him.

        30. Emily, to

          Jeremy,
          “And I think the opposite, Emily. The world seems to corroborate my view, though.”
          Could not agree less. We live in a world of careful Cathys and logical Larrys. When I meet anyone with the slightest spunk or a poke-the-bear, question-everything attitude, I get excited.
          Jo,
          “Emily, about over- vs. under-thinking: I wonder if your answer is a reflection on the people who happen to be in your life. While in your life, you see most people over-thinking, in my life it’s just the opposite. I see people under-thinking constantly – just reflexively following what their ‘group’ does …”
          I guess I meant overthinking as never taking any chances and getting mired in one’s comfort. Everything is plotted and planned. But following along with the group is a turn off, too. No individuality.

        31. Bbq

          Jeremy, Emily, to, Jo

          All three of you are overthinking.

          Emily to and Jo.

          There are men who don’t have to brag if they are successful with women. And there are men who brag because they either aren’t successful or are insecure about how successful they are. Then there are men who brag who are successful and simply brag because they’re full of themselves, or because it’s the dating/sex culture they’re in at the time (and they’re full of themselves or insecure). All three are true.

          It’s good your attracted to the 1st group as the 3rd is obnoxious, however they do very much exist.

          I’ve noticed some of the women on here have a strange tendency to always imagine that the type of man they are attracted to is the one who would be getting the most women (or at least could if he wanted) or somehow the best (unquantifiable) type of man. But neither is true, he’s just their type.

          There are types of women I’m not attracted to but I would never pretend (or really believe?) they couldn’t get men. For instance, I couldn’t care about some wanna be (or real) insta model or “influencer” (no offence Evan your not the type I’m talking about), as I find them shallow, ridic, and boring. But I don’t need to delude myself that they don’t have loads of guys lining up for them. It’s likewise for men – amongst the younger crowd, disgusting as they may be, the Logan Paul’s (fame or not) of the world have hoards of women chasing them as did the Jersey Shore types before that and from the older crowd there are loads of lawyers and financial types who are every bit their counter parts when it comes to bragging, age aside. All of them are capable of getting a lot of women, why pretend otherwise just because you aren’t attracted?

        32. Buck25

          “You just kind of go with it”

          Emily,

          First of all, thanks for the kind words. I have to say though, that every single time I thought I finally understood women, along came an example to show me how much I still didn’t understand. With age comes the understanding that the more I learn, the more I realize how much I still haven’t learned.

          Initial interpersonal interactions with someone we don’t know well (if at all), are usually quite fluid, and largely unpredictable; one is more likely to be successful by just staying with the moment and letting the encounter go wherever it goes. I’m not aware of really doing this consciously at all; there’s really no time for that anyway (try that, and you’re apt to lose the moment, so to speak). I think for me, it’s just something I’ve learned through a lot of socializing, combined with the fact I enjoy new people anyway, so there’s really no way I can lose; I’m going to enjoy the conversation and the banter, regardless of whatever else happens, (or doesn’t).

          I wonder if some of the rest of this discussion, at least the debate on “over-thinking” hasn’t gone off into somewhat different territory. It’s not as if this kind of spontaneous interaction is the same as something one actually has time (and needs to take the time) to look at with a critical eye and a questioning mind. The examples Jo put forward, for instance, are a different kind of decision-making. If one is going to take a stand or pick a battle, it’s wise to put some careful, critical thought into the matter first. To do otherwise is simply to follow the rest of the lemmings off whatever cliff they are blindly marching toward. That most often doesn’t end well. Society these days tends to have an overwhelming number of lemmings, and not so many thinkers.

          Oddly enough, though, society also has a massive over-supply of people whose spontaneous reaction to almost every challenge in life is to live in fear like scared rabbits. Unlike those who always act on impulse, and don’t think, these overly risk-averse people overthink everything. The usual result is that they are so afraid of the result of doing almost anything, that they often end up doing nothing, frequently making their fears into reality in the process. We might call this “paralysis from analysis”..

          There’s a time to think, and a time to operate on instinct. The key is knowing which is appropriate when. Good leaders know how to handle this; instigators and followers usually do not.

        33. Emily, to

          Jo,
          “All of them are capable of getting a lot of women, why pretend otherwise just because you aren’t attracted?”
          Um … I’m not arguing with you. Didn’t I write that you don’t have to be James Dean to be having tons of sex? If you say there are women who like male braggarts, I have no reason not to believe you. Jo and I just wrote that bragging turns us off and, as a behavior, is easy to spot.
          “I’ve noticed some of the women on here have a strange tendency to always imagine that the type of man they are attracted to is the one who would be getting the most women (or at least could if he wanted) or somehow the best (unquantifiable) type of man.”
          I don’t see where any female posters wrote this, but I do think most people want to imagine those they are attracted to have at least some options in the dating world. I don’t think anyone dreams of dating someone who has no options.

        34. Emily, to

          Buck25,
          “If one is going to take a stand or pick a battle, it’s wise to put some careful, critical thought into the matter first. To do otherwise is simply to follow the rest of the lemmings …. ”
          My natural response to lemmings is to do the opposite of whatever they are doing, just because I don’t want to be a lemming, but that is probably a bit silly on my part. The key is to realize there are lemmings on both sides of the aisle.
          “Society also has a massive over-supply of people whose spontaneous reaction to almost every challenge in life is to live in fear like scared rabbits.”
          Yes
          “There’s a time to think, and a time to operate on instinct. The key is knowing which is appropriate when.”
          Agree
          I think you wrote on another post about not landing as many women as you had in the past. Don’t give up hope. I have a guy friend in his 70s, and he always has some (usually younger) woman hanging around. We talked the other day and he mentioned spending time with his grandchildren. I told him I didn’t want to hear about that; I wanted to hear about the women. 🙂

        35. Bbq

          Emily, to

          “Most people want to imagine those they are attracted to have options”

          Um, no. Most women may want to. Most men don’t imagine this or think about it at all. You know why? Because logically it doesn’t benefit anyone at all. Unless the Benefit is other people knowing you landed “a catch”. Or you need to know others approve your date as a catch because your own minds choice in the matter is dependent on theirs.

        36. jo

          Buck25 and Emily – haha, I probably did go off course with our discussion of over-thinking (tbh, I hadn’t realised that you were discussing it in terms of dating interactions). Maybe I’ve been watching too much news: seeing everything that’s happening in the US of A with people refusing to wear masks because somehow it’s been designated a sign of masculinity or the ‘right’ or MAGA or whatever. I bet you some of those not wearing masks are afraid for their lives, but they can’t show it. They gotta go with the crowd. And clear on the other hand, others demonising JK Rowling for supposedly anti-trans statements although she has explained herself repeatedly – and now these fools are going off about how terrible Harry Potter is, as if the quality of the books somehow changed because a random statement of hers was judged as anti-LGBT. When I asked a friend who shared an anti-JK Rowling tweet what exactly she said that was so offensive, he didn’t even know. He was just going along with the so-called ‘woke.’ But how woke are they if they don’t even know what they’re protesting – just following whatever their friends do?

          Reading stories like these makes me wish desperately that people would think more for themselves. Groupthink somehow turns out to be less, so much less, than the sum of its parts.

          So anyway, Buck25 and Emily. When it comes to simple interactions, I do agree with you. 🙂 Don’t overthink. Be yourself. You’ve earned it after a certain age. Of course, be polite, be humble and caring and un-self-obsessed. Beyond that, don’t overthink it.

        37. Emily, to

          BBQ,
          “Because logically it doesn’t benefit anyone at all. Unless the Benefit is other people knowing you landed “a catch”. ”
          It does actually benefit the woman. I have a friend who married a guy who never got any attention from women except for her. He married the first woman who was nice to him and had sex with him. Now, 15 years later … well, he’s gotten more confident, grown into his appearance, etc., and other women are noticing. I would not be surprised if he’s getting casual sex offers from other women (women can be very aggressive), and my friend has become very aware of him staring at/ogling other women. Is more going on? Idk, but she brings this up every time I see her, so it obviously bothers her. It would be different if he’d had more attention from women years ago and then picked her.

        38. Emily, to

          Jo,
          “When I asked a friend who shared an anti-JK Rowling tweet what exactly she said that was so offensive, he didn’t even know. He was just going along with the so-called ‘woke.’ ”
          I’ve been reading an article about a woman who feels traumatized about a guy making a pass at her 3 years ago and is demanding an apology from him. I wasn’t there, of course, and didn’t hear what he said, but many of the commenters have gone off the deep end and didn’t even read the article and are talking about how she was assaulted.

        39. Buck25

          Emily,

          Actually I haven’t “given up hope”; there is, after all, some possibility of the odd encounter that might have some relationship potential; but those become less likely as time passes.

          It’s not so much a matter of “not landing as many women”, really; the sheer quantity is of course a bit lower, but the real problem is…well, quality isn’t the right term either (many of them are very nice women, and high-quality friends). A better term is low potential as anything more than friends. Let me illustrate.

          I do occasionally attract younger women for casual flings, but that’s exactly what those are; owing to age differences, there’s no realistic potential there for anything more than casual sex, or in the best case, friends with occasional “benefits”. Nothing to invest in much emotionally beyond the friendship level. In my own age group the numbers are greater, but there, I seem to attract mostly widows and long-time divorcees. Many of the widows have recently lost a husband of many years, and are still healing; some never will, for others it’s going to be a long time. In any event, these are not candidates for anything more than friendships. Any intimate relationship will simply be transitional; a sort of bridge from where they are, to wherever they end up. Hanging out with them as friends is ok; trying to actually date them, invites exactly the sort of transitional “relationship” I just described. The long-time divorced set is even more problematic; typically they have trust issues and a lot of other emotional baggage, often had very negative experiences with sex, and/or have little room for relationships anyway. Here again, while some may have some interest in either casual sex, or various FWB type relationships, most are simply looking for companionship and emotional support; they may or may not return any of the latter.

          Then too, with few exceptions, physical chemistry (on my part, anyway) is mostly non-existent with women in my age group, and I really can’t do much with what I simply don’t feel; if I’m not attracted, I’m just …not attracted, physically or romantically, and I don’t care to fake it, so….

          Simply put, at the moment I’ve no shortage of women to hang out with-as friends, but that’s about all. To tell the truth, I’ve come to accept that as part of the process of aging, just as I’ve come to accept that no matter how young I feel mentally, age is catching up with me; no question I’m a step or two slower, I get tired more than I used to, and I’m beginning to have a few aches and pains I didn’t have before. Such is the price of a long and rather adventurous life. It’s taken a while to accept that, but I’m ok with it now.

          You once asked why us old men tend to look at much younger women. Well, we do look at them, but not the way you might think. Once when we were young (I know that’s hard for you younger folk to imagine, but we really were young, way back when), we’d look at all the beautiful young women, and see if we could catch their eye or turn their heads. Sometimes, we’d chase the ones we wanted, and see if one would let us catch her, but that was half a lifetime ago, now. The young women now are just as pretty as the ones we knew, but of course, they don’t notice us now, and that’s as it should be. They’re not for us to have, to chase, or even to want now; they’re for the young fellows; it’s their time, their season in the sun; ours has passed, long ago. We look at young women now, and reminisce, and just for a moment, recall the good times we had with the ones we loved and laughed with so long ago. Like us, they have grown old and faded now, and so have the memories. Sometimes it helps to be reminded how beautiful and full of life they were, all those years ago.

        40. Emily to

          Buck25,
          So, are you looking for an actual girlfriend? I only know one woman around your age and she was most definitely looking for a serious relationship after her husband passed. What type of women do you like personality wise?
          “We look at young women now, and reminisce, and just for a moment, recall the good times we had with the ones we loved and laughed with so long ago. …. Sometimes it helps to be reminded how beautiful and full of life they were, all those years ago.”
          Years ago I asked my grandfather when the happiest time of his life was. He said it was right after high school. He lived at home, went to work during the day and hit the big band clubs with his friends at night. I’m guessing they were chasing women. I remember being hurt that he didn’t say meeting my grandmother, getting married and starting a family, but now that I am middle-aged myself … I GET IT.

  10. 10
    Emily, to

    BBQ,
    “Because logically it doesn’t benefit anyone at all. Unless the Benefit is other people knowing you landed “a catch”. ”
    It does actually benefit the woman. I have a friend who married a guy who never got any attention from women except for her. He married the first woman who was nice to him and had sex with him. Now, 15 years later … well, he’s gotten more confident, grown into his appearance, etc., and other women are noticing. I would not be surprised if he’s getting casual sex offers from other women (women can be very aggressive), and my friend has become very aware of him staring at/ogling other women. Is more going on? Idk, but she brings this up every time I see her, so it obviously bothers her. It would be different if he’d had more attention from women years ago and then picked her.

    1. 10.1
      Bbq

      Emily, to

      While I believe your story, that’s one guy who may or may not have cheated. It means nothing.It’s hardly the case that men who become somewhat more appealing later in life are any more likely to cheat or leave than those who always have been, or that the wives of men who were always attractive won’t likewise develop jealous feelings.

      This just sounds like another excuse to find a reason why the men that are more attractive to you are somehow *better than the others. Or life will turn out better for those that choose them. And no offence but it’s based on some very flimsy reasoning at best.

      1. 10.1.1
        Emily, to

        Bbq,
        “This just sounds like another excuse to find a reason why the men that are more attractive to you are somehow *better than the others.”
        I don’t really understand what the discussion is here or why this seems to irritate you. Yes, there are men I think are better than others, just as I’m sure there are women you think are better than the others. But I am one person with one opinion. I don’t think it’s keeping anybody up nights.

        1. Bbq

          Emily to

          This isn’t about your personal individual preferences in men. It’s extremely simple – The discussion was centred around my comment about it not being a logical decision for someone to need to pick a partner who had plenty of “options” -someone pre approved by others interest if you will, which was a response to your comment claiming everyone wanted to know their partner had options (which I disagreed with being a factor at least from the male POV).

          In essence your POV was making those who had options a better potential match not based solely on your POV but also by taking into account that of others. Something which I truly don’t care about and don’t believe the majority of men do ands I responded that.

          You then left a comment in response to this relating a story of someone you knew being jealous of their husbands new found options, a jealousy and unhappiness you claimed wouldn’t have happened had he always been as attractive to women. In essence you were saying that she should have picked the person with options at the start (the person who you say most people want). In that way you attempted to make a comment offering “proof” that the person with visible options – something which most people and you? want – according to you, was justifiably the best choice for a relationship.

        2. Emily, to

          BBQ,
          “Something which I truly don’t care about and don’t believe the majority of men do ands I responded that.”
          I don’t know the percentages, but there are some men who want a woman who is in demand.
          “In essence your POV was making those who had options a better potential match not based solely on your POV but also by taking into account that of others.”
          It has nothing to do with the opinion of others. People with at least some options pick for a place of abundance and not scarcity. It doesn’t mean the guy has to be Brad Pit with women throwing themselves at him. Just that he has at least some self-esteem in his ability to attract women and is picking the best choice for him. You are of course not required to agree with me. I can’t tell if you’re disagreeing because you actually disagree or you just like being a contrarian. This is my opinion. I am one person. I am not speaking for all of womankind.

        3. Bbq

          Emily, to

          Nope, I’m completely serious about disagreeing, I don’t know why you’d think otherwise. This isn’t about picking Brad Pitt or a man picking a model every time, I’ve never written that. Its extremely simple – It’s about the idea that most people chose a partner with the idea of said partners amount of “options” as a deciding factor in the choosing. I’m saying most men don’t.

          “People with at least some options pick from a place of abundance not scarcity” Well obviously the two things are one and the same. But that is not what you’ve been saying, you have been making the co platelets different point that people pick a partner with the partners amount of abundance to choose from as a deciding factor – something which is very different. For instance, if someone goes on a lot of first dates then eventually picks someone from one as their partner – they are picking from their abundance, they know nothing about their potential partners abundance so it isn’t a a factor in their appeal – and vice versa for the partner they have chosen. Meaning that the appeal of said person to other people – other people’s opinion and approval of them – has not been a factor. I am saying it is not usually a factor (or only in extreme cases of and obviously terrible choice, ie. a drug addict , morbidly obese, etc.) for men.

          If you disagree with this I think you are dead wrong when it comes to men at least, but your free to disagree obvi. There’s no point going back andd forth forever over it. However the point your now making and have been trying to make for the last few comments is completely different from that which we started talking about (which should have been simple to follow). Please tell me you can understand this, hell, even tell me your intentionally trying to troll me with it by pretending not to understand and being over the place and changing topic.

  11. 11
    Bbq

    If your friend does think this (and that’s if) I would say that’s her own neurosis and play and could easily come out for another reason had he always been attractive. Like wise I think you could think whether the same thing was true.

    1. 11.1
      Bbq

      Evan Marc Katz

      You called me a troll or an antoganist in another thread, if you get time, read the above comment chain with Emily, to and the discussion there that started over the idea of people choosing a partner who had potential abundance of partners or not. I’m not telling you to agree with my opinion, that’s neither here or there, but I’d srsly like your opinion on if you think I’m trolling or if my point is un-understandable and the same for the comments in response.

      1. 11.1.1
        jo

        Bbq, I didn’t think you were trolling, but do think you and Emily are talking past each other a bit, and might be missing something in each case. While I agree with you that many men do not care how desired the women they pursue are by other men, it’s obviously not the case that no men care – you have evidence in this very thread! Take a look at YAG’s latest comment. He makes it obvious (and disturbing, to me at least) that the things he cared most about the two women he described are how desirable they are to other men – the woman who had her phone keeping on beeping, and he assumes it’s other men trying to hit her up, and his gf (ex-gf?) and how much money she earns, how other men must want someone like her, and how she could have her pick. Sadly, YAG is not an anomaly. I’ve had men pursue me who are like this too, who want me because they think they’re winning someone other men want, and those relationships never turned out well. They saw me as a trophy and didn’t care about the normal human I was.

        Not that I’m saying this is only a male thing. Some men and some women are like this: putting as important (maybe even a top priority in YAG’s case) how desirable their partner is perceived to be by others. I think it’s sad and unwise, and will not lead to a happy private outcome, because in the end, relationships are a private affair, not lived out for the most part in public. So public judgment matters very little in the end.

        On the other hand, I felt that the story Emily told was like three different levels of hearsay, so it wasn’t too convincing. It sounded more like her friend was too suspicious, and no one really knows what her husband was thinking. If she is uncomfortable, she should just talk with him directly, instead of playing guessing games and assuming the worst of him and of other women. If she can’t do that with her own husband, then there is something more deeply troubling about their marriage.

        1. Jeremy

          Agreed. Alain de Botton wrote, in “Status Anxiety” that men strive for two great loves in their lifetime – the love of women, and the love of society. The love of society – status in the hierarchies of society – to replace the love they had or wanted to have as children, and lost during their adolescence. The unwavering adoration of adults, attention, love, that we lose when we lose our baby fat. Of course, status in society is not parental love, does not have the same implications….but it makes us feel the same way, for a little while. And so we strive for it.

          For some, the want of those two great loves merge into one. The love of a woman, the status (love) of society. A trophy. Men and women do this – men choosing beauty, women choosing status. Both surrogates for power. Both lousy heuristics for happiness. Both intuitive, and difficult to entirely ignore…

        2. Emily, to

          Jo,
          “Not that I’m saying this is only a male thing. Some men and some women are like this: putting as important (maybe even a top priority in YAG’s case) how desirable their partner is perceived to be by others. ”
          But isn’t everyone affected by this at least somewhat? I won’t lie: As much as I push individuality, I do not live on an island and would definitely notice a guy who is getting a lot of attention from other women. Doesn’t mean he’s my type or that I would want to spend time after talking with him a bit.

          Also, I read the posts very quickly. I’m at work and squeeze in reading them during the few minutes when I have some downtime or am not being micromanaged. 🙂 So if I’m all over the map … it’s because I’m distracted by watching out for Big Brother or (every blue moon) someone will say something (you, Jeremy) and i’ll change my mind and incorporate that info in my next answer.

        3. jo

          Emily, yes – and I think it’s healthy if we do pay attention, just a little bit, to what others say about our potential partners. I trust my friends to give me feedback about whether the men I’m dating are basically good people or duds. Any time they’ve told me someone was mean or a troublemaker, and I paid no attention and thought I could be the one to ‘change’ him, it never worked – they were always right. I try to do the same for them. Sometimes it’s harder for us to see the red flags when we’re in the middle of la-la land.

          But to go too far – to only consider a partner worthy if they’re considered a star or a trophy by others – is unhealthy. In the end, it’s about a relationship between two people, not a public relationship. You have to be compatible with your partner, and that’s not always subject to the opinions of outsiders.

          I learn things from you and others on here, too. It’s good times.

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