Does a Man Always Ask Out a Woman If He’s Interested In Her?

Does a Man Always Ask Out a Woman If He’s Interested In Her?Evan, I have a common problem that you’ve responded to lots of times: I fooled myself into thinking that my friend of 10 years had feelings for me, and when I mustered up the nerve to tell him, I was shot down. I thought I had read the signs right. We talked almost every day, he told me I was hot, he told me that he fantasized about me, and we went traveling together. He never actually made a move on me though. Now that I know my feelings are not returned, I’ve cut him out of my life so that I can move on and find someone who truly does love me. I have to admit though, that this whole experience has left me scarred. I was wondering if you could explain how to avoid a situation like this in the future. Do men always ask out a woman they’re immediately interested in? Does love never grow over time? Does the romantic story of “When Harry Met Sally” really just exist in the movies? –Angelina

Angelina, sweetheart. I’ve never answered this question before, and I’m glad you shared your story with me. It definitely hurts to have a long-time unrequited love and I’d be lying to you if I said that I never experienced the exact same thing.

So believe me when I tell you, everything you’re going through is very common – and, not only that, but this will NEVER ever happen to you again. Okay?

First of all, you have to stop beating yourself up over the outcome of your friendship. Any woman in a similar position would have read all of those signs in the same way. I can’t think of many guys who will tell you you’re attractive and claim to fantasize about you, who aren’t at least somewhat interested in something more than friendship.

Usually, when there’s smoke, there’s fire. In this case, there was not.

C’est la vie.

It definitely hurts to have a long-time unrequited love and I’d be lying to you if I said that I never experienced the exact same thing.

But there are some things that you could have been ignoring the entire time you were with him that led to this crisis. The first thing that I can think of is that he’s not some shy beta male who had a crush on you for ten years and was too embarrassed to make a move.

I’m guessing that maybe 25% of guys are that way. Maybe more, but I don’t know too many men like that. Guys who are the way I was in high school – befriending all the pretty girls in hopes of getting close to them, only to discover that you’re in the friend zone.

But for all the other men out there who got the memo in third grade that if you find someone attractive, you ask her out, the easiest thing to do is simply observe them.

If he asks you out, he’s interested. If he doesn’t, he’s not.

I’m guessing, Angelina, that your guy was in the top 75%. Which meant that if he liked you, at some point over 10 years, he would have let you know it.

So, looking back on your history, was your friend somewhat confident, charismatic, and funny? Did he have any other girlfriends? Any random hookups? Did he tell you about other women and ask you for advice on them?

If so, I could have told you from the beginning that he saw you as just a friend.

Men see women as just friends in four fundamental ways:

1. He’s not attracted to you at all – which makes friendship really easy to maintain, without all the sexual tension of the “When Harry Met Sally” friendship.

2. He’s taken and content in his relationship – which makes you off-limits, and even if he is attracted to you, he wouldn’t do anything about it.

3. He’s hooked up with you before – so the mystery and excitement is gone and you can just enjoy each other’s company as friends.

4. He’s a mature adult who’s had enough sex to understand that just because he’s attracted to someone doesn’t mean she’d be a viable girlfriend/life partner, so it’s best not to act on that attraction.

I can only make such a list because there I am friends with women under all four of those pretenses – I’m not attracted to her, I’ve hooked up with her before, I’ve slept around and don’t need to do it again, and I’m married and not ruining a good thing.

So when you’re assessing future friendships with men, first ask yourself whether he’s the shy, awkward guy who may be repressing his true feelings for you.

If he’s not, he’s probably not interested in you and is one of the four men above.

Any questions?

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Comments:

  1. 61
    Saint Stephen

    @Heather and DMC
    There is nothing wrong in men asking out women and vice versa.
    As EMK previously pointed out, it’s just a matter of what works in the long run. Nothing to do with entitlement on either genders.

    Personally, I’ve always done the asked out on women that i was fairly interested in, but still made sure i perceive the signs to see if I’m getting sufficient green light before approaching them to express my desires. In that way even if the signals were misunderstood on my part, the rejection would be mild.

    To be frank, I’ve been turned down at times when i thought the lady was interested based on the signals she gave me. Some say they just want to be friends and others would even go as far as giving me their number but wont/hardly answer calls. The dating and relationship scene is all messed up.
    My question is, why would a woman be giving a guy the blue signals if she isn’t interested in a relationship? Isn’t that the same as what the guy in the OP’s letter is doing? 

  2. 62
    starthrower68

    As a GENERAL RULE it works out better if the man initiates and pursues.  If I have to do the chasing and pursuing, I don’t feel valued.  While some fellows on here might be the exception, the exception doesn’t disprove the rule, to co-opt an oft used phrase by Evan.

  3. 63
    DMC

    For the record, I agree that there is a more natural way in men asking women out than vice versa, and personally have gotten far more dates by asking then waiting around to be asked.  I was simply pointing out the attitude some of the women conveyed.  I know it’s not popular to point this out, buy many women have a bit of a misandric superiority complex when it comes to men and dating. Why do you think even Evan has difficulties with some of his female readers? They are stubborn and feel b/c they want something, it should be that way.  Men, by and large, learn at an early age life is not going to be like that for them.  I was simply pointing out preferential treatment women seem to think is their birthright. 

  4. 64
    Saint Stephen

    starthrower68 Said;
    If I have to do the chasing and pursuing, I don’t feel valued.
    And the guy pursuing you, how is he supposed to feel valued?
    The reason men pursue women is because we know if we don’t, you women won’t and in that way we all wind up single. You women shouldn’t make the mistake of thinking that we (men) enjoy chasing (women) and getting rejected nearly all the time.  
     

    1. 64.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Stephen, he feels valued by GETTING the girl. It’s not her job to pursue him; it’s her job to be receptive to him. For all you guys who say that women and men are not the same, why is it so hard to understand that women want to feel valued? Once you guys get this, you can be better boyfriend and better men. But if you truly think that it’s HER job to pursue you, HER job to call you once you’re together, HER job to make plans, HER job to initiate sex, HER job to ask for commitment, you’ve got another thing coming.

      Listen to her. Make her feel safe. Let her know you’ll be there the next day and forever after that.

      That’s what women want. Stop focusing so much on what YOU want.

      And yes, this is EXACTLY what I tell women to do for men.

  5. 65
    Androgynous

    Saint Stephen,
    As you may already know, women are very complex creatures and do things for a multitude of reasons. Why would a woman feign interest ? or else give the impression of interest ? thousands of potential reasons, some being :
    – she has been socialised that way, to always seem receptive even when she is not that way inclined
    – she is after an ego boost and playing a game with a man to see if she can hook him
    – that’s the way she relates to everybody and the man has misread the signals (which admittedly can be hard for anybody)
    – she is playing hard to get to see if you will continue to persist
    – she knows she is attractive and like to dump men for sport the same way little boys crush insects
    Men, on the other hand, are generally very very clear in showing interest/disinterest. They don’t like wasting their time playing games with women they are most definitely not interested in. This is not to say some men are not flirtatious and enjoy female attention by putting out signals that they may or may not act on. However I have found generally that even these men do not flirt with women they are not attracted to. They may flirt with a group of women one of whom he finds attractive. However, he will most definitely will not flirt one on one with a woman he does not find attractive. He may have a polite conversation with her, but he will definitely not flirt.
    As EMK and other posters have pointed out countless times, it is quite clear if a man is interested or not. Even if a man is interested, he may not always act on it for a number of reasons (being poor, unemployed and/or living at home with mum and dad are two of the most common ones I know of). If a man is already taken, he may be attracted to, as opposed to interested in someone. “Interested in” assumes the ability or freedom to act on that interest.
    In Angelina’s case, I doubt her male friend would have remained friends for 10 years and not busted a move on her if he was interested. I doubt if her friend was giving her signals because as I have opined, men do not generally do that sort of thing. I think Angelina read more into his words and actions than he intended. Also, men generally don’t give signals. They act rather than give out signals for women to act on.
     

  6. 66
    AllenB

     
    When men do those things for her to feel valued it becomes HER job to tell us we call too often and HER job to say “no I can’t/don’t want to” HER job to push us away, HER job to say “give me space.”  I see a woman lose interest in a man who is doing all the right things, and expresses it passively instead of directly.  The pursuing man either backs off and then when her mood changes two weeks later she complains he pulled a slow fade and didn’t really love her, or he ramps up and pretty much guarantees her mood won’t change since  she is constantly put in the position of denying him. Unclear communication where the woman is not to ever pursue at all guarantees every relationship withers once the woman goes through a couple of bad weeks. There has to be balance.

  7. 67
    Saint Stephen

    Evan, I’ve already stated that is normal for men to do the chase. Not because men enjoy it but because it’s an effective strategy. While is true that men feel valued in getting the girl, how often do they get the girl? If men were nearly that successful the pickup industry wouldn’t be thriving. In my previous comment i did mention that i do the chase, but still i would love it if women did pursue me for a change. I’m sure every man would love that, wouldn’t you Evan? Oh common…!

    Secondly, I’m a bit surprised by your comment. In the other thread you criticized we guys for stating that men and women are different but you come here only to reinforce the point we seem to be making in other threads.
    You said women want to feel valued but you turn around into pillory guys who expressed their unwillingness to value a woman who’s been around. Apparently, you think is right for women to want feel valued where is suits them and discard that feeling when it doesn’t. I seriously don’t get it.

    Androgynous
    Thanks for the response. 

  8. 68
    Michelle

    #47 Joe, I’ve done a lot of on line dating.  I can’t recall one time where I had success when I first contacted a man.  They may answer, and we may chat, but it doesn’t go beyond that.  The man I’m dating now I met on Match, he winked at me first.

    This is where it’s tough to be a woman, we have to sit back and WAIT for men to pursue us, we can send signals, but ultimately, it’s up to him to decide if he feels ‘it’ for us or not…we have to have patience, which for a lot of us, is a tough thing.  It’s the right thing though.  

  9. 69
    AllenB

    He e-winked at you first?  Who actually wrote to the other one first?  Winking is the real life equivalent of making eye contact. If THAT is what constitutes pursuit, then I retract my statement above.  Heck, I will happily wink at 100 women and then let them take it from there. Sorry, if you actually responded to something so weak, then you made the first move and had success with that.

  10. 70
    DMC

    Even, with all due respect, your “why is it so hard to understand women want to be valued” is a red herring.  That is NOT anything men have disputed, that I’ve seen on here.  Also, that is a very broad comment that almost has no meaning.  If person A is happy making other people happy, and person B is happy crushing other peoples souls, we wouldn’t claim they are the same since they both want to be happy!

    Now I fully embrace your notion that partners should be generous to their other half, but it should be equal, unless you don’t feel men and women are equal.  Your comment suggests men are dating beast of burdens and women are supposed to just sit back and reap the benefits. I can see how one could think that, but it doesn’t mesh with the whole “equality” thing.

  11. 71
    Michelle

    #69 AllenB, there are stages to a relationship, so I’m not sure which stage you are referring to.

    It’s up to the woman to be receptive, to continue to show the man she’s receptive.  It’s not up to her to pursue.  As soon as she starts pursuing, believe me, your sexual attraction will wain.  She would be displaying too much of her masculine energy, and what man wants to be with a woman with too much masculinity?  What’s the point?   

    Women are like waves emotionally…that’s just the way it is, it’s not going to change.  We’re looking for strong, masculine men that can confidently survive those waves.  We will constantly be testing you as a man.  We’re looking for our men to hang in there with us, to diffuse the situation with humor, to give us a hug, to pick us up, swing us around and distract us.

    A good book to read is by David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man.  I read it and it helped me to better understand, as a woman, why I do the things I do and what I’m looking for in a man.  (Also helped me understand why I challenge my young adult son in the way I do.)  We don’t expect men to be perfect, but to adjust.  My new boyfriend didn’t do so well during my last ‘emotional’ wave, he’s anxious to do better the next time–that’s very attractive to me and wants me to continue to work on our relationship.  If he threw up his hands and said, I give up, that would have been very disappointing and I would have lost attraction for him.  

    Having said all that, it’s incumbent upon men and women to choose good potential partners.  Partners who are mature, responsible, of good friendship ability and of good character.  That’s a whole different conversation.  

  12. 72
    Ray

    All relationships are a ‘dance’.  I agree that the original poster had reasons to believe her friend might have had other intentions… and I agree 100% with Evan’s assessment to check out how her friend interacts with other women… AND talks about other men too, by the way.

    I have many male friends.  Some have accused me of leading them on or giving them mixed messages simply because I agree to share time with them (we split the bill or I at least offer… everytime).  Well, I do that with every man (offer to split the bill).  Even if I”m interested in something romantically.  It’s 2012 not 1912, after all.

    I’ve asked out men who I percieved were interested in me, and it has never worked.  As we speak, I’m having an ‘extended conversation’ with a couple of male friends whom I’ve danced around the maypole with on and off for years.  One of them is, for certain, is a very shy guy.  One of those people though, that once you get to open up, is incredibly witty and smart.   I’m attracted to him, but I”m not holding my breath either. 

      As comfortable as I am with rejection/asking men out… it simply isn’t effective.. What IS effective is seeking clarification.  Evan gave a few examples (observation).  There are other ways to do this that preserves everyone’s integrity and self-esteem.  Asking them probably doesn’t hurt.  What you DONT want to do is blame THEM for your perceptions.  That is, if you like having male friends.  I do… so I’m ok with the vagueness. 

  13. 73
    Zaq

    #71 Michelle

    It’s tricky. This is not black and white. In the real world women are not passive. They give subtle (sometimes not so subtle) signals that they are willing to be approached by a man. Without that, it is going to be an uphill struggle to develop rapport, so I agree with SS that direct approach is very difficult. In the real world, approaching women who show no signs of being receptive is only rarely going to work. Unfortunately on line, there isn’t much option.

    A direct approach by a woman runs the risk of being seen as too aggressive, which from a man’s perspective is an unattractive trait in a woman.

    So I don’t agree with Saint Stephen here. However a wink should be fine.
    I have had women I don’t know come up to me and offer sex and I must say my immediate reaction is to be unsettled. Kind of lets forget about the game and just play the ace card.
    Isn’t there a tribe in Africa that as a test of manhood requires a boy to walk directly up to a lion. The lion not used to potential meals being so aggressive becomes confused, gets up and walks away.

     

  14. 74
    nathan

    The wired to chase argument is evolutionary psychology propaganda. Furthermore, this whole men pursue/women are receptive narrative is the story of patriarchal gender roles. It may be currently more “effective” for women to play a more receptive role, however I’d argue that the level of effectiveness is dropping by the day as our society changes. Many of the women who comment on here demonstrate a confidence, assertiveness, and willingness to take the lead on arguments that was rare amongst women of even a few generations ago. And frankly, the experiences I have had, as well as those of friends, family, and others I have talked with online about dating show a diverse pattern of approaches. This is true when it comes to who makes the first move, all the way to how emotions are expressed, who initiates sex, and even who asks whom for long term commitment and/or marriage.
     
    None of this negates what several women have said on here about never having any success when they have made the first move. Clearly, plenty of men still have hangups about women being more assertive, especially around dating. Although I doubt any of the women have the numbers of rejections, missed signals, etc. that men tend to have, so I have to wonder if women who are more persistent end up eventually having some success. 
     
    In the end, though, it seems to me that if the approach you are taking isn’t working, it’s best to experiment. If you’re a woman sitting at home waiting for a call or e-mail all the time, I’d suggest that the story you have about men and what they are “supposed” to do isn’t helping you.

    1. 74.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Nathan, what you’re not acknowledging is this: it’s still a LOT more effective for women to “do nothing” with men. It’s the crux of my book “Why He Disappeared” and it’s the basis for thousands of successful relationships. So unlike the 1950’s neanderthals who have active problems with assertive women, I have no problems with them. They’re my clients. They’re my readers. But until they learn to soften up and lead with a little more receptive and feminine energy, they will continue to struggle with the men THEY want.

      To me, that’s your blind spot, Nathan. Without making this sound personal, most of these women want men who are confident, leaders, decision makers, breadwinners, sexually dominant, etc. And THOSE men don’t need women to call them and ask them out. They’ve got it under control. They do what they want. If they like you, they call you. If they are attracted to you, you’ll know. If they want to commit, you’ll get a commitment.

      Can an alpha woman ask out a beta man with great success? Sure. The beta will be thrilled that he didn’t have to put himself on the line and make the first move. The friction here is that alpha women want men who are more alpha…and alpha men don’t want alpha women in return.

      I hope that makes sense. And I hope it’s consistent with everything else I said. It’s not that a woman CAN’T ask out a man; it’s that the men that most women generally want will do the asking out for her.

  15. 75
    Michelle

    #76 Zaq, in the real world, of course there has to be initial indication from the woman that she might be interested.  That’s usually a smile, tilt of the head, eye contact.  I actually am not a fan of a ‘cold approach’, just approaching a woman with who hasn’t even been able to or has given interest signals.  At an initial meet, is the risk higher for a man to approach a woman in person/in real life, even if he gets what is universally assumed to be ‘buy’ signals?  Yes.  Does he need to muster the courage and face rejection?  Yes.  That’s life…do you want to be right (women should pursue), or do you want to be happy? (the generic ‘you’)

    For on line dating, come on!  There is virtualy NO risk for him to wink at her or send her an email.  There could be considerations from him in regard to time and effort he wants to invest, i.e. custom email vs. wink, if she doesn’t respond or says there’s not match, oh well.  As a woman, when I winked or emailed a man, it never worked out to my benefit. So in my little world, it’s pretty clear that I need to be patient and wait for a man to contact me, then take it from there.

    The rejection factor for on line dating is higher for both men and women, primarily too the opportunities are so much greater number wise.  That’s one of the frustrating parts of on line dating.  It’s not a perfect world.      

    Finally, it only takes ONE. 

    In regard to women coming up to you and offering sex, that’s what I finished my last post with.  Everyone needs to choose wisely in regard to the type of women/men they want to get involved with. 

  16. 76
    Goldie

    Here’s my take on it — it’s called the dating game for a reason. Dating appears to have its own rules and dynamics that do not necessarily apply to the rest of our lives — work, parenting, running a household etc. As a result, when a woman pursues a man too aggressively, I’m guessing that in many cases, it confuses him and he has a hard time determining how he really feels towards her. He may also feel that, as a gentleman, he cannot say no, so will say yes when he doesn’t really feel like it, or is ambivalent. FTR, I went after my ex and succeeded, if by success you mean marrying the guy you went after… 20+ years and two kids later, guess what, I’m on this blog. We were a bad match, but I was coming on so strong, the poor guy probably never even stopped to think about it.
     
    This doesn’t mean that a woman shouldn’t, for lack of a better term, make googly eyes at a man and see what happens, especially in online dating, where a big part of the game is getting noticed. I’ve sent one-line emails, added people to my favorites, given them 5-star rankings etc., all of which gets them to notice me and respond if they are so inclined. I did not, however, initiate dates or any type of escalation in a relationship. I figured that should all come from the guy, because that’s how the game is played.

  17. 77
    Sayanta

    I don’t want to sound repetitive, but I’m genuinely confused about something. The advice here tends to be wait for a guy to ask you out, which I totally get and am cool with. But at the same time, writing to a guy online first is completely approved of. The thing is, isn’t it the same dynamic? That is, the woman taking the lead? 

    1. 77.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Sayanta, after all these years, you still haven’t bought Finding the One Online, which explains how you can initiate contact and still be confident and feminine and mysterious?

      You know me well enough to know that I do everything in my power to close the loop on what might seem like internal contradictions.

  18. 78
    Michelle

    “If you’re a woman sitting at home waiting for a call or e-mail all the time, I’d suggest that the story you have about men and what they are “supposed” to do isn’t helping you.”

    #77, the answer to the woman in this situation is to get out of the house!  Get involved with all kinds of things, learn how to smile at everyone out there and to say hi at the very least, be friendly.  The answer is NOT to be in their masculine energy and pursue men.  For some reason, people nowadays, and maybe it’s younger people without a lot of dating and life experience, not sure, think that technology and society trumps and changes biology.  There could be nothing further from the truth. 

    I’m a confident assertive woman who can pretty much make anything happen, and that’s how I married my husband.  I pursued him all the way to the alter–stupidly.  Because I didn’t know any better and frankly, not sure anyone could have told me any different.  He was loyal and a good dad, but not the kind of man that I admired or was strong enough to be the man I needed (see #74 above) and that was not a relationship where I ever could just be in my feminine energy.  So I’m speaking from experience and lots of education on why this dynamic works and why it’s important.
      

  19. 79
    Sayanta

    EMK- 

    Lol touché  

  20. 80
    nathan

    Evan, a few things. First, given that you know your client base a lot better than I do, I can’t argue a lot with what you said about them as a group. I tend to view things in terms of how society is moving as a whole, and from what I see, the fixed narratives around gender are breaking down and morphing. You and others can disagree with that, and maybe I’m wrong, but that’s where my comments are coming from. 
     
    Secondly, a lot of your posts are pointing women to the fact that a lot of what they have been told is the “way to date” isn’t terribly helpful. I have always respected that, even when I don’t agree with every detail. It seems to me you’re often telling women to try something different, and really my comment above is mostly saying try something different.
     
    Lastly, I think it’s worth noting that many of the men on this post and others tend to question at least some of the first ate/early dating norms. Whether it’s who pays the check or who should be responsible to make the first move. Clearly, we are a small sample size, but I have always found it interesting how often men on here are pushing against some of the stuff many women seem to expect and say they think things need to change, or demonstrate how things have changed. That includes your posts, Evan.

  21. 81
    nathan

    Michelle82, I’m in my mid-30’s, and have plenty of experience under my belt. What you claim is biology, in my view is a mixture of biology and socialization. And I’d argue it’s more socialization than biology. We’ll just have to agree to disagree about that because I don’t want to derail Evan’s thread.
     
    When I speak about women not playing a totally receptive and/or passive role, I’m not arguing for the other extreme. How often I see Evan dealing with the same assumption. Must get old. Anyway, what I’m saying is that it’s dangerous to have a long list of expectations about what men “should be doing” that you run your dating life by. You want a strong, confident man. Fine. My point is that he might be strong and confident and not do all the things you expect him to do early on. Maybe he initiates first contact, sets up the date, etc. And then wants to split the bill. Or maybe he doesn’t tell you right away that he’s really interested in you, not because he isn’t, but because he’s trying to let the date sink in for a few days first. Or perhaps he has a mix of directness and indirectness. The point, and frankly Evan has said the same thing before, is that there aren’t a lot of truly “alpha guys.” Just as there really aren’t that many truly “shy” guys either. Most of us are somewhere in the middle along the spectrum. It just seems to me that a lot of women forget that, and expect men to demonstrate clear and obvious signs all the time.

  22. 82
    Joe

    In order for you to entice a bloke to send you a message online, though, you have to have a hook in your profile.  Something that makes you different from all the other women out there.  Generic language about liking sports or going out to dinner doesn’t really fit the bill.

  23. 83
    Androgynous

    Hi Nathan. Interesting point you made about socialization versus biology. I do agree a lot with your observations – my own husband who is very very very alpha but a late generation x (on the cusp of generation y) kind of guy fully expects me to pull my weight in bringing money into the household and pay my own way. One point I would like to make is that some of what we think are socializations are actually things driven by biology and survival. For instance, back in medieval/feudal times, only the very rich and powerful barons, warlords, chiefs, nobles etc could afford very beautiful but totally useless white elephants of a woman. Incapable of doing anything but pleasuring her master. The peasants had to find women who were hardworking, intelligent, resourceful and yes, capable of her own defence and that of her children if necessary (eg if her husband was busy fighting for his own life).
    So yes, from a survival point of view, men like to take the lead, but most definitely appreciate a woman who is able to back him up and share the load. I don’t think men like to give women the lead specifically because he is alpha or due to socialization, but because men generally like to be in control. Not because he is being a prick but because he likes to know exactly what is going on, what is going to happen, what he is going to do about it, harking back to biology and prehistory when men have generally been the ones confronting and dealing with threats. Sure men can cede control to others, but usually within a certain context and usually to other men whom they already have some sort of a relationship and understanding with. And they do so within a context of rules (explicit or implicit) and organization (hierarchical usually) that is similar to a kind of military or business model. Men generally don’t see domestic arrangements and romantic relationships as falling into this sort of business/military model.

  24. 84
    MilkyMae

    If you meet a man and you hope he asks you on date, you probably aren’t the only one who is hoping.

  25. 85
    Ray

    nathan,

    I agree with you.  Society’s rules are changing.  I’m perfectly fine doing the asking or ‘waiting’ to be asked.  I don’t have a one size fits all approach…. I will say that my impatience has gotten limited results though.  Impatience meaning… I know he’s attracted to me.  Ask me out already…  Unfortunately for the guy, if he waits too long past the initial interest phase, there is no going back for me.  That has happened to me many times.  I can’t reignite interest in a guy if he doesn’t respond in some way to me early on… whether the approach is subtle or not so subtle.  The guys might want to keep that in mind.  I’m sure I’m not the only woman who is like this.

    To all… Regarding online dating and making the first move… the rules are weird there.  Frankly, the quality of men I met when I did the initiating was much higher than when the guy approached me first.  When I approached him, it was because I saw significant compatibility… they almost always responded, even when I had NO pictures.  Ultimately though, the overall quality of men, the preponderance of ‘multi-dating’, as well as the pace that men doing online dating expect was not my cup of tea.  I’m sticking strictly to offline dating.  For many many reasons.

      

  26. 86
    Michelle

    #85 Nathan, I couldn’t agree more with “what I’m saying is that it’s dangerous to have a long list of expectations about what men “should be doing” that you run your dating life by….”  I’ve just started a new relationship and I find myself having expectations, and having to check myself on those expections.  Many of those expectations are based on past relationships, or ideas on my head of my ‘perfect man’, what I think he ‘should’ do (by the way, when someone says should, it’s a red flag, it’s a way of trying to control, I try to avoid that words as much as possible).  I’m human and I think many women do the same thing.  The key, in my opinion, is to not dwell on those things, changing thinking patterns, and enjoy the moment!

    #90 Ray, you’re contradicting yourself and making the point: “… I know he’s attracted to me. Ask me out already… ”  Guess he’s not that attracted, otherwise he would ask you out (consider watcing the moving, He’s Just not that Into You).  Assuming he’s too shy, or too busy, etc. is a woman’s way of making excuses for a man. 
     

  27. 87
    Margo

    Another insufferable scumbag leading another innocent, trusting woman on. What else is new? He knew exactly what he was doing. He knew the OP wanted him, and he revelled in his little game. It served to boost his ego. OP, you need to end the friendship and go on your merry way. Ignore all of his attempts to contact you.

  28. 88
    Betsey

    Nathan 77, 85, 86: Love the points you make.

    Androgynous 88: All humans face physical threats to their survival and they always have. It’s not like men in days gone by took on all of the physical dangers while women sat home safe and sound. That has never been the reality and it isn’t the reality today.

  29. 89
    Saint Stephen

    @Nathan and others
    - Just to straighten out some of the bad science floating around here...”

    First, the men are wired to chase argument is not some evolutionary psychology propaganda – it’s the truth. Since the stone age and medieval times, women have never chased men – rather it’s been the other way round.

    Secondly, I’d argue that “the men are wired to chase women” is more of biology than social conditioning. If you doubt you can take a look animals; during the mating phase, it’s the male who aggressively pursues the female and actively tries to win her over. Sometimes they achieve this by incessant flirting or show of care and support and on extreme cases by engaging other males in bloody combat that are sometimes life threatening. In other cases the male just chases and dominates the female (this would be equated to rape in human society).

    However, I believe that one of the reasons why we are evolved primates is our ability to override our primal instincts and biological wiring whenever it isn’t helping us to achieve our aim.   

    1. 89.1
      JoJOe

      Cutting to the Chase

      What archaeologist discovered foot prints that revealed primitive men chasing primitive woman?

      Knights were created by the king for the king. They were created to kill and be killed. Men created the “damsel”, her job and training was to play hard to get because the king wanted to use her as a pawn to get more land and riches. Marriage was a monetary treaty carried on between countries and kingdoms for power and control. It was the name not the dame that was important. This was not a woman’s choice. Until Henry the 8th s daughter, Elizabeth the 1st, women were losing their heads over patriarchal power.
      However, there are no recordings of any “alpha” knights except in “Camealot” that a knight was successful in his attempt to persuade a king for his daughter. Knights were usually killed in battle or married milkmaids. Settling on the king’s land and fighting when called upon. Romancing the stones that built their homes on the king’s land was their “lot” in life.
      When the great and powerful kings observed great and powerful “alpha” knights getting killed in jousting competitions they realized that their debt ratio was imbalanced. Jousting was jousted for more economical sacrifices on the front lines of booty and bootae.
      That CHASE was to “rape and pillage”
      So when we view the Neanderthal or the knight in the game of chasing the female. We have to question the intention. Is he on fire for her or does he just want her “fire” or put her house on fire?
      If he’s in hot pursuit, is he carrying a club or a torch to protect or to harm?
      In today’s medium a man should not be a Neanderthal nor a disposable knight. He is free to make his choices without fear of freezing to death or bleeding to death. When he is chasing a woman he is usually chasing her firstly within his jeans not his genealogy. A woman, though feeling flattered and desired should trip this man and question his intentions. Then a rapport can commence, anything less is just fuedality.. HA!

  30. 90
    Ray

    Michelle@91

    I realize it might sound like I’m contradicting myself, so I’ll clarify.

    I’m impatient.  If I sense a guy is interested in me, I don’t have any problems making the first move.  Most of the time, he does reciprocate.  Not always.  The reason why it usually doesn’t work out in the long run are many.  Not all of them attributable to male/female dynamics I’m betting…      

    I don’t believe in gender stereotypes… but I do understand there are stereotypes for a reason.  I’m learning to have more patience in waiting long enough to determine if a particular man also appears to hold those stereotypes.  If he does, then yea, I agree that if he’s not asking me out, then he’s not interested… If he’s asking out other women and not me, then yea, he’s not interested in me.  On the other hand, sometimes it really does kinda make life easier to just ask the guy out and see what happens.  

    If nothing else, then maybe I have a new friend.  I have many male friends.  I don’t view all men as date material so I don’t expect all men to view me as date/relationship material either.  No sense throwing out the baby with the bath water…. especially if he is a decent person.

    Society isn’t going to change until each one of us do, and frankly, I think it is really idiotic to hold onto stereotypes with a death grip… doesn’t honor the individual.
         

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