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I love your blog and Why He Disappeared. It can be a tough pill to swallow at times, but I appreciate your no-nonsense advice. I’ve had to learn the hard way, that my “go-getter” attitude does not translate well in the dating world. Not doing anything in the beginning stages of dating tends to drive me crazy.
I’ve been dating a beta-male for about a month and a half. He’s a total sweetheart and for the first time in a long time, I feel very safe. He’s kind, attentive and affectionate- when we’re together. He communicates with me daily, mostly through text message, to which I always respond warmly.
Here’s where I’m struggling: I find myself wanting to take over and take control with him sometimes (planning things mostly). I am resisting this urge as I’m trying out your mirroring concept.
My question: We’re texting everyday, but he’ll wait FOREVER, (in actuality, 5-7 days) before asking to see me again. What gives? Is this a downside of dating a typical beta (i.e., no initiative) or is he just not that interested in me? Do I continue to utilize patience or should I move on?
Thanks, Evan!
-Michelle
Dear Michelle,
Thanks for reading “Why He Disappeared — The Smart, Strong, Successful Woman’s Guide to Understanding Men and Keeping the Right One Hooked Forever”. Glad it turned on a few light bulbs in helping you realize how a few of your behaviors have been ineffective in forging a relationship with a man.
But I have to say that if I had to write the whole thing again, I would have taken a few pages to put in a caveat:
This advice doesn’t work for every single woman in every single situation with every single guy. Basically, WHD was written for alpha females who want to date alpha males. It was a way to open your eyes about how the men you’re the MOST attracted to don’t necessarily want to date you in return.
And in the absence of giving yourself an entire personality-ectomy, the smartest thing you can do is a) be aware of some of your tendencies to dominate and b) find a partner who is cool with them.
You, apparently, have done both of those things, Michelle. But while you’ve adjusted your take-charge attitude, you haven’t adjusted for the fact that you’re NOT dating a take-charge guy.
While you’ve adjusted your take-charge attitude, you haven’t adjusted for the fact that you’re NOT dating a take-charge guy.
Take charge guys are the ones who will always follow up quickly, make plans, make the first move, and claim you as their girlfriends.
Beta males are the ones who have more kindness than confidence. They’re not nearly as assertive. They’re so passive as to be, well, almost feminine in nature. They are not going to put themselves on the line for rejection until it’s 100% clear that you like them. They would sooner wait to get a written notice in the mail that you’re really, truly interested in them than to follow up too much and potentially make you uncomfortable.
Is any of this hitting home, my friend?
So you’re not wrong to curb a little bit of that domineering side. Where you’ve gone astray is that when you’re with a man with beta male traits, you’re ALLOWED to be more alpha. “Doing nothing,” as I describe in Why He Disappeared, works with take-charge guys because those guys don’t need you to take charge
Your new beta male guy DOES.
So instead of extrapolating my advice to apply to every man, make an adjustment based on the man you’re actually dating. The good news is that, if he’s a true beta, he’ll be THRILLED that you’re taking control.
The good news is that, if he’s a true beta, he’ll be THRILLED that you’re taking control.
When you’re done reading this, give him a call to find out if he’s around this weekend. You’d like to cook him dinner. I suspect that’s all you’ll need to seduce him into becoming your boyfriend. And if, in fact, he’s just not that into you, you’ll figure that out quickly, too.
For all of the women who are reading this who would not be able to tolerate such behavior from your guy and prefer a take-charge man, do yourself a favor and pick up a copy of “Why He Disappeared”. You’ll be very glad you did.
Beta Female says
I wish I read this 6 months ago when I was dating a beta male cause I thought he just wasnt into me and we had many conversations about that. He accepted me planning everything and anything but I am a beta female and there was 18 years age difference so I think that was what bothered me too. He was not bothered by the age difference but could easily go 2-3 weeks without seeing me….but would call me every day and text every day. I just couldn’t keep it up after 9 months that he would never make a plan or cancel due to work. I got the vibe he just wasn’t that interested in me and broke up with him. He was a great guy too but figured he would eventually want to get married and have kids with someone. I’m typically attracted to alpha males so I was very confused by his behavior. After 6 months I asked him what we were and he said “you want me to be your boyfriend” then we are boyfriend/girlfriend! Never took initiative to plan anything fun and when he did something would always come up and we had to go to Plan B. Interested to hear from other ladies on here….
Denise says
I think the main issue here and the part left out of EMK’s advice is that just because a man is more beta, that doesn’t mean he is head over heels for any woman he might have some degree of interest in. He might be shy, might tend toward passivity, might need a woman to take more of the initiative. But he could be all of these things and also think she’s fun but not “the one.” So even if she has correctly pegged him as a beta, due to his wishy washy behavior, that woman still does not know what his actual level of interest in her is.
Women are *assuming* that the hesitance of certain men is due to their personalities when in reality, they don’t know whether such men are hesitant for the same reason a lukewarm alpha might be hesitant–he’s just not that into her–or whether they are super into these women but just don’t have the wherewithal to pursue more assertively. She just doesn’t know.
A man who cancels dates and doesn’t make places and is not internally motivated to move things forward should be treated according to his actions. Instead of trying to get inside his head and decide what he must really be thinking or feeling, the much superior path is the one where a woman simply moves on to a man who can communicate clearly in word and deed that she is a priority to him.
Adan says
Maybe you shall focus more on what?YOU want instead.
Henriette says
Yeah, I think this is pretty awesome advice, Evan. I used to date Alpha males but have moved on to sweeter, more gentle Omegas (I prefer to think of them as not Betas, which to me implies one step Lower than Alphas, but rather just miles away in terms of personality, behaviours and goals). I’d wait for them to take action and would feel confused and unsure of their intentions when they seemed passive.
I think you ought to write another book, Evan, on how to attract, keep and be happy with wonderful Beta/Omega men. Even how to figure out if a guy is an Alpha or not; it can be hard to tell with some of these successful, nerdy, techie-types.
Jamelle says
Communicate but, never try to control or change someone.
Ang says
Beta is one thing but Omeg??? yikes why would you want that ? A beta 2nd in command and omega is literately the scape goat bottom of the pecking order.
Lois says
She just made up the name
luna says
have we learned nothing from Jurassic world?
the omega is the proper term for the lowest in rank, and usually hangs out with the alpha for protection and the alphas normally like this as an omega unlike a beta, is not perceived as a threat
its quite common to see this in wolf packs, and i think its sweet
Bar says
If I am a beta??
Then I hang with other betas.
I think Gammas are great.
Libelle says
Wow. Thats respectless as fuck.
Sunflower says
A mixture of both would be ideal 🙂
mike says
I think of myself as both. More alpha then beta but go beta once in awhile
Jackie H. says
Hooray for beta males…Alpha males can be annoying anyway…
m says
“When you’re done reading this, give him a call to find out if he’s around this weekend. You’d like to cook him dinner.”
So … dude gets dinner and the company of his lovely gf. She has to call him up & invite him, make the plans, buy the groceries, plan the meal, make the whole thing (three courses at least, I’m sure), find the time to decorate both the house and herself, and charm him all evening …?
I hope dude brings at minimum his best behavior, some thanks for the excellent meal, and two bottles of her favorite wine. Oh – and an oxygen mask.
It wouldn’t hurt if he threw something into the $$ pot for the groceries either. It’s not just working men who are feeling the effects of the recession. Working women feel it too.
Anybody else feel like emotional, not to mention concrete, reciprocity in relationships is not just slipping, but being actively shoved, through the cracks of what we continue to call modern society …?
P.S. EMK – nice, nice job on Marni’s panel the other evening. It’s good to know that sometimes it’s not so much some of your concepts I take issue with as it is said concepts’ written delivery (which — as speech and written language come from two different brain centers — I at times suspected, but couldn’t actually verify without having had the privilege of listening to that silky baritone 🙂 ).
Further, on the blog, there are a lot of topics where men are actively encouraged to use their relationship-relevant leverage, and women are exhorted to just work around it (I know “men won’t change, so women have to” is a pretty fundamental tenet to the work so it’s never going away, but at least the fundamental inequity & imbalance therein is at least apparent when it’s set up like that – and of course women “get” to choose whether or not to work with it) … whereas the talk seemed much more focused on finding, and communicating around, the Venn diagrammed points in relationship where men’s and women’s interests do in fact intersect. (See, I paid really close attention. 🙂 )
So, in short, thank you so much for doing that. You were great.
Evan Marc Katz says
Any compliment coming from you, m, is a meaningful one. You’re a tough audience. Thanks for the shout-out.
Lois says
Curious
M does seem to have understood this stuff at an advanced level…
Where did s/he hear it
Jenna says
Ugh, I can’t stand people like this, whether it’s a romantic, professional, or platonic situation. I have a lot of courage and confidence and reciprocity is very important to me — I want someone who can engage on an equal level. Somebody this slow would be a poor match for me.
Kareen says
“reciprocity is very important to me – I want someone who can engage on an equal level. ” I agree with u Jenna -100 percent. I prefer a guy who will definitely take the initiative. Yep. U see as the first poster basically said, if u make all the plans, one might get the impression that the man is not all that into u. Based on all that I have learnt from the three coaches I follow up, especially the very first one who I followed up really closely, when I was making all the plans, calling him and taking the initiative to do a lot of stuff, I was CHASING HIM. That’s right. And that DRIVES MEN AWAY. I am not going to chase any man again. I want a man who will take the initiative to call, make plans for dinner and so on. You must take the lead for me. I am not going to take the masculine role. Nope. Evan, if you are reading this, I will definitely have to invest in “why he disappeared”, as that is exactly what happened to me in my last relationship. I have to buy this book between now and my birthday (end of November).
Tim says
Actually Karen, it was a good thing YOU were the one doing the CHASING, because chasing is what the woman does. Chasing exhibits feminine energy. You’re supposed to be chase him because it lets him know you’re into him. However it’s his, ‘the man’s’, job to simply set dates with you, hang out, and hook up. It’s all about having fun together. Dating and love is supposed to be playful and fun, not serious.
Here’s my constructive criticism part, I think your definition of a beta male, and probably of an alpha male, is messed up, because you are probably one of the 97% of the population out there who buys into the media, film, movies, TV shows, and other junk that rots your brain and makes you stupid.
Second, and this is IMPORTANT, just because you were making plans and calling him and stuff, doesn’t necessarily mean you were chasing him.
You’re confused believing that taking charge and chasing are the same thing, when it’s NOT.
I’m probably not the best person to be telling you something like this, especially since you didn’t ask for it, so I apologize in advance if I offended you. Have a good day. God bless Karen 🙂
Kareen says
“Second, and this is IMPORTANT, just because you were making plans and calling him and stuff, doesn’t necessarily mean you were chasing him.
You’re confused believing that taking charge and chasing are the same thing, when it’s NOT.”. Something to think about. I hope Evan sees what u said Tim. I would love to hear his imput. Its a good thing I stopped and glanced at the email when it came in as I am super busy. This is definitely something to think about and I would love to have Evan as the coach give his expert advice on this. Thanks for your comments and may God bless u too Tim.
starthrower68 says
There’s another dating coach, who hasn’t posted on here in a while that says the exact opposite. So who do we believe? Your life coach or the other one?
Evan Marc Katz says
Sorry, bud. Women shouldn’t chase men. They shouldn’t have to. If a guy is into her, he’ll make plans with her. If he’s not, he won’t.
You’re simply saying that women should chase YOU because YOU won’t show genuine interest because your life coach points out (accurately) that women often respond to mixed messages. I come from a different point of view.
If you’re a REALLY confident guy, you can do whatever you want and women will respond. If she likes you, she’ll be THRILLED that you were consistent and kind, rather than aloof and mysterious.
You are entitled to live your life as if your paradigm is a healthy one, but for women who are looking for husbands? Your advice of chasing men down as “feminine” behavior is all sorts of wrong.
God bless Tim!
peter says
Chasing is 100% MASCULINE ENERGY behaviour. You sound like one of those silly coaches like wayne or other PUA’s. Sorry man but this is a serious blog with serious people. Through your PUA ill reasoning somewhere else.
Julia says
So I guess this makes everything a bit more vague for me. If he’s not asking you out is it because he’s not interested or because he’s beta? My default stance is to believe its because he’s not interested and move on. The only truly beta men I’ve gone out with have followed up right away, were very interested but put me on a pedestal and made me feel uncomfortable with the enthusiasm they have towards me that I didn’t really earn.
Andre says
That’s because you and other self entitled alpha wannabes think respect should be earned.respect should be automatically given until you find out the person doesn’t deserve it.backwards alpha wannabes while your think ing your the greatest I’ll be working to self improve on things that will make me an all around better person.
Julia says
Did I turn you down for a second date Andre?
As a follow up, my partner now is a bit more beta, he’s quiet, shy, very romantic. He never has held back in stepping up the relationship. He was never so beta that he didn’t ask for everything he wanted, from second dates, to exclusivity, to moving in. So I still believe my original statement that men not asking you out again means they are disinterested.
Tim says
Asking you out in what way Julia?
Because it bothers me that you say in your first comment, that when men put you on a pedestal, especially when you didn’t do anything to deserve it, makes you feel uncomfortable, which I agree with because my life coach says often in his videos that kind of sh*t turns women off, and it does, and your comment even PROVES it.
HOWEVER, I’m replying to your statement, ‘that men not asking you out again means they are disinterested’. Let’s break this down, you said the word, ‘AGAIN’, which implies, and how I see it, some guy asked you out, you said no, he walks and never looks back, end of story, but YOUR problem is, he DOESN’T ask you out again…WHY would he come back to you after you rejected him? WHY would he CHASE you?
Men should NEVER EVER chase women, because that ALWAYS exhibits needy, desperate, and feminine energy, and that’s a HUGE turn off for women, despite all the bullsh*t you see on tv and in movies and media and film and all that other stuff, because in those romantic comedies, instead of restraining orders that should be given to those stupid clingy beta men, they get the girl, but that’s not how REAL LIFE works.
Or you could just be a b*tch and like that kind of masochistic behavior, and if that’s the case, you need to see a shrink.
I apologize if I offended you, I’m only trying to help, as I asked my life coach for help, but of course you didn’t ask for my opinion on here, so, sorry anyways I guess lol 🙂
God bless Julia!
starthrower68 says
That was as subtle as a flying mallet. Put some insults in the response, then cover it with “oh, sorry to offend”, and “God bless”. Methinks “the life coach” is a PUA guy.
peter says
some men wownt ask you out because they think you will say no, also some men are too nervous to ask you out. In fact in my case, the more I liked someone the less likely id be to ask them out because I know id look nervous and if I screwed it up itd be over for good ! beta men will always be very nervous asking women out, because of this the woman says no, beause of this the man loses more confidence and inds it harder to ask the next one out, who inevitably says no because your nervous ! Its the nervs that mean they are really really keen !
Karmic Equation says
So, Peter, ask out women who you’re less keen on and just like a little bit.
If you ask out a 10 as a nervous beta, then, ya, she’ll likely say no.
If you ask out a girl in your league (assuming you know what that is) or below it, then you wouldn’t be as nervous.
Unless you’re saying you’re nervous asking out any girls, even those you consider average or below average.
Ask out the nicest girl you know instead of the prettiest. You might find that her niceness is what you need more in a girl than pretty.
Sylvana says
Actually, Andre, any true alpha will know for a fact that he/she has to earn respect. Just look at nature. Do you honestly think any of those alpha males got their position because someone just handed it to them? No! they fought for it, and fought hard. And earned the respect of their followers in the process.
Likewise, they continue to have to prove themselves every day. Not just their strength, but their skills as a leader and ability to provide for the “herd”.
Curtesy is given. Respect is 100% earned. If you believe you’re entitled to respect just by existing, then you are the wannabe alpha (aka – the omega whining that no one will hand him the alpha card)
Milos says
In nature, the species in which males fight, they often end up forcing themselves sexually over females, ie. rape, so if you prefer that, I don’t know what to say about you.
To give respect until it is broken is a better world I think, for your own good.
Goldie says
Hmmm. I’ve dated a good number of betas, and I’m skeptical. All my betas have been pretty prompt and consistent about making plans to meet next time. I can only think of one occasion when one of them left me hanging for the weekend, and that was because he’d run into a tough family situation that he didn’t want to tell me about.
Then again, my betas have all been grown men with children and one or two marriages, and a few relationships, under their belt. Maybe OP’s beta is a very young guy who really is too shy to ask her out. I still wouldn’t go as far as cooking him dinner. First of all, there’s a 90% chance that even a beta will get the wrong message that he is being invited to spend the night. But I do like the idea of inviting him out. Second, that’s way too much work for a guy who might not even be interested. I don’t know, to me cooking the guy a dinner this early in the game just screams “trying too hard”. Who wants to send this message, right? My advice is, find an activity that you both like to do, something happening in your area this weekend – a concert, a show etc. – and invite him to attend together.
Lady Z says
I married a guy like this and I am miserable. But hey, you know the Alphas aren’t marriage material for women who are 4-5 on the SMV scale like myself. It’s settling for Mr.Good enough, when you’re not hot enough. But I would give ANYTHING to be with a take-change man. I’m just not on thier radar. Its a fact that Alpha female and ugly female share.
Clare says
If you’re miserable chick then change it!! Life’s too short to be unhappy. Start with your confidence… don’t call yourself ugly… we all have beauty inner or outter it’s just a case of letting it shine out. Don’t get too caught up in these definitions of men… at end of day be with someone you love and adore and its reciprocated… suggest you try Paul McKenna’s Instant Confidence
Tim says
Did you just call yourself ugly? If you feel like you’re ugly, then change it sister! 🙂
Do something about it, I know it’s not easy, but I’ve been suffering with chronic pain in my feet for 20 years now and I’m FINALLY doing something about it, because enough is enough!
God Bless Lady Z.
Chris says
Tim, as someone who can date about anyone I want (and have), I have to say you have things very backwards. You can chase, you can take a girls phone and put your number in it, you can be yourself, as with anything: there’s a balance. Confidence gives you power. Waiting to have sex and not even trying gives you power. It seems like you aren’t grasping the concepts from your life coach. It’s coming out in your words. Or you are using someone who has strong bias where they shouldn’t. A good life coach wants you to make working choices, not for you to follow his ideals. You can play games and make a mate “wonder” where she stands, which will temporarily give you some power, but in the end you will need to play games forever to keep her. Or you can be a confident you, meet her personal and practical needs, and wait a bit. She will love you unconditionally because you did the one thing no one else ever has: made her needs a priority consistently and without expectations.
Missy says
There are no ugly women, only lazy ones.
Rose says
I don’t buy this Alpha/Beta theory which I believe in based on research on wolves is captivity.
I do believe that you have more masculine energy and he is being passive. So yes you need to reverse the energy. However this only works if you when you start to be the passive one that you express how you feel and what you want and then give him chance to step up into the masculine role. For eg, this would be next time he texted to say, ” I am starting to feel disconnected from you with only seeng you x amount of times a week and I feel more connected to people when I see them in the flesh and blood on a regular basis and want to feel closer and more connected, what do you think we can do about this?” And see what he suggests and does. If he doesn’ want to step up, resolve the issue you will get bored and not want him. As he can’t meet your needs. As long as you do not revert to stepping up into the masculine role. Unless you are happy with role reversal.This can work for some. What do you want? Or ignore your needs.
Tim says
I’m not going to tell you or force you to believe in something, HOWEVER, it’s NOT a theory, it’s a FACT, for example, as my life coach likes to say, ‘it’s been scientifically proven that women are more attracted to men who’s feelings are unclear’.
Saying something like ‘research based on wolves in captivity’ is a pretty IGNORANT thing to say. Do some research of your own first before you say something that makes you look like you don’t know anything.
However, everything else you said is spot on. Good job.
God bless Rose 🙂
John says
Is your name Corey Wayne? you sound exactly like him. If you’re not then go check him out he has nothing but very crap advice for men and you certainly sound like him.
Sylvana says
alpha/beta simply means leader/take charge or follower. Every person is either or, and some can swing a little in either direction. It is basically a matter of dominance, if you prefer that term. Some people are naturally way more dominant than others.
I believe it is absolutely true. I’m 100% alpha (not to be mistaken with bitchy or men hating feminist). I naturally take charge. I think a lot of it has to do with natural testosterone levels.
For example, I work with horses on a daily basis. They do have a tendency to push people around if they know they can get away with it. If you think there are no alphas or betas (or less), observe people in a group of horses and see who ends up in charge, and who ends up down the line of command.
No matter how aggressive the animal, my natural instinct is to get in there, and put it in its place. I’m in charge, and I won’t let them forget it. Just like I would never hesitate to show them affection when they behave well. But to think that any other human would do the same is ridiculous. It’s what separates the alpha personalities from the betas or less.
In case of emergencies or whenever decisions need to be make, the owners instantly refer to me. Not because they all have less experience, but because they prefer to leave the hard decisions to others (alphas they trust).
It certainly is a very real thing, even in humans.
Frimmel says
Because I just can’t resist.
M in #5 with the genders reversed:
So … gal gets dinner and the company of her lovely bf. He has to call her up & invite her, make the plans, buy the groceries, plan the meal, make the whole thing (three courses at least, I’m sure), find the time to decorate both the house and himself, and charm her all evening …?
I hope gal brings at minimum her best behavior, some thanks for the excellent meal, and two bottles of his favorite wine. Oh — and an oxygen mask.
It wouldn’t hurt if she threw something into the $$ pot for the groceries either. It’s not just working women who are feeling the effects of the recession. Working men feel it too.
Anybody else feel like emotional, not to mention concrete, reciprocity in relationships is not just slipping, but being actively shoved, through the cracks of what we continue to call modern society …?
I certainly don’t get the idea that reciprocity is being actively shoved through the cracks. /sarcasm
Ruby says
I just posted on another thread that I don’t believe the whole alpha/beta male thing anyway. Most people are too complex for that and are a mix of various traits. I’ve dated men who had what could be considered “beta” qualities, and they were still very proactive in the dating realm if they were truly interested.
After a month and a half, I feel that waiting 5-7 days to make plans might be a sign of lukewarm interest or passivity. And I agree with Goldie, better to find an activity that you both would enjoy, and invite him.
Tim says
I think what you’re trying to say is, you’ve dated men that weren’t really that into you.
God bless Ruby 🙂
Fiona says
What, so if ‘beta males’ (i hate this term) were truly into you, they would be scared to ask you out. If a beta male had no problem with they, he’s considers you average. This is complicated sh+t! You guys. 😠😂
Braind Ed says
I am a guy. I cannot be categorized like this. I am a little confused because, though I know about these categorizations of alpha beta omega etc., I see now how society simply categorizes men like a meat market. Thats all well and good because I’d rather not be categorized. and as a wise man said “Once you label me, you negate me” Perfect! The thing is that I am an alpha when it comes to many other things. Being an alpha male can be learned btw. What most women call beta is simply ignorance as far as inter-personal skills are concerned and the place society wants you to be categorized. And what we were taught since we were little boys. And how Alpha traits are bad, that’s what I learned. I really don’t care if I’ve lost the best years of my love life because of ignorance.
Sylvana says
It’s simply a matter of where you rank in the natural chain of dominance. Are you more assertive naturally, preferring to make the decisions and taking on the responsibility of caring for those who trust you, or would you not mind leaving the hard decisions to others? Do you naturally take charge, or do you follow others? Will you readily defend your opinion, even when faced with 100 people who think the opposite? Or will you chose to stay quiet?
The whole alpha male thing got a bad reputation when every a..hole out there was excusing their bad behavior by calling themselves alpha. Alphas are simply great leaders who make decisions to benefit others, no matter how tough those decisions might be. They carry tremendous responsibility, and are not afraid to assert their dominance if needed (in order to protect, etc.)
They do not bully those weaker then them, but they most definitely protect them.
I personally think betas are the best men. Strong in their masculine energy, but not overpoweringly so, like many alphas can be. What many women (and men) refer to here as betas are actually men who would rank much lower in the dominance scale in a group situation. Men who are mostly in a feminine energy, and as such prefer their partners (women or men) to be in charge of day-to-day decisions.
It all comes down to the play of masculine and feminine energies. Too far in either direction is not necessarily a good thing.
Robert Wilson says
Be careful with this “It’s simply a matter of where you rank in the natural chain of dominance. Are you more assertive naturally, preferring to make the decisions and taking on the responsibility of caring for those who trust you, or would you not mind leaving the hard decisions to others? Do you naturally take charge, or do you follow others? Will you readily defend your opinion, even when faced with 100 people who think the opposite? Or will you chose to stay quiet?”
I am responsibility averse, but don’t hesitate to defend my positions in arguments.
I prefer to lead only myself and defer the responsibility of others to soneone else.
I don’t like following others for no reason, I only do that begrudgingly in a bind where I am unable to fend for myself — in other words I fake it in order to be manipulative, then leave once I don’t need to be in that situation anymore.
So I don’t think that makes me alpha. But I’m not beta either.
Very selectively I’ll desire responsibility, but I only take responsibility for others if I think they’re unicorns and are really special. Most of the time I frolick through life half-asleep and mostly unfazed, but its probably because I have not put myself in social circles of people that I’d take seriously.
It’s a catch 22. But I normally do ‘good enough’ for myself and slip out of the public eye.
Rajio says
I agree that this alpha/beta thing is an oversimplification.
I think all men can show alpha and beta qualities and traits which don’t seem to fit into either category, just depending on the situation. For example, it could depend on which group of guys he is with at the time, what activity they are doing or simply how he feels that day.
In terms of how different guys treat women. The only thing that I’ve noticed is that different guys view women in different ways. For example, some guys are completely unselective and will literally fuck any woman they can get their hands on. They can come across as alpha because they have a lot of experience with women, even though most of those women are boring or ugly. On the other hand you have guys who are selective about looks but don’t care less about personality etc.
In terms of guys who allegedly ‘put women on pedestals’. That can also mean lots of different things. It could mean that the guy is looking for a girl with very similar interests and personality or that he has very specific tastes in looks. This means when he finds a girl who matches his criteria, he gets a sense that it’s quite rare, and thus he views the girl as special and is nervous or overly disappointed after rejection.
On the other hand, it’s possible that a guy has not much experience with women and so _assumes_ that the girl he’s found is special, even though there are plenty of other women with the same qualities.
One thing I’ve definitely noticed is that some so called ‘betas’ can be 100% unselective, whilst others are very fussy. They feel like they’re almost opposites categorically.
Another point, how do you classify a guy who spends most of his time alone. I.e. he doesn’t lead but also refuses to follow?
Evan Marc Katz says
I classify him as “alone.”
David T says
He’s not interested in going out much; whether that means he is not interested in you as his dating partner is a different question entirely.
You get together a bunch, you always respond to his communication, so if he is interested in doing something with you he will ask because he knows what the answer will be. Maybe he just doesn’t plan things in any part of his life, or he is content and happy to be on his own most of the time. Ask him directly during the nice dinner you are going to make for him, perhaps along the lines of “I enjoy hanging out with you but we only see each other once a week and I would enjoy more time together. Would you like to do more activities together on the weekends? It’s OK if you want that alone time. I can do things with my friends on my own.”
Depending the answer you decide if this is a relationship that works for you. It could be a daily friendly text message and once a week companionship is his relationship ideal.
I have been described by some women as more beta, but dang, I never hesitated to ask a woman out and give a kiss or start affectionate touching on the first date or two (when it feels right) because I want that. Is that an alpha-beta thing or just a making your own wants happen thing? I think the OP’s dating partner is doing something else with his time.
I also don’t mind when a woman make a plan to do something they want us to do together or they ask me out. It usually exposes me to something I wouldn’t have thought of on my own and adventures are fun. 🙂
Flgal says
This could not have come at a more perfect time. I am dating a “beta,” I guess, for the past 2 months, and I have been making myself nuts trying to sit back and let him lead – but this weekend, where I took the initiative a bit more in terms of future plans, he definitely responded in a positive way – which made me feel way more at ease about the situation.
Anyways, I actually think cooking dinner is a great idea for a few reasons 1) If you can cook together, its a fun activity that allows you to get to know the person in a casual and less formal setting and 2) I notice a lot of guys really appreciate it when a girl goes a little out of her way for them – since many men tire of having to go through all the early and potentially expensive stages of courting without much of a guarantee that the girl is even interested ( I don’t mean sex – but who wants to shell out $100 for dinner that might not even lead to a second date?). I have cooked a few meals with (notice I said with and not for) the guy I am seeing and so far it has allowed us to get to know each other, because it’s a team effort and is more private than eating at a restaurant – which can get mundane. Also, both of us actually enjoy cooking, and since I am a neat-freak, I have no problem cleaning up after, which he definitely appreciated.
Robyn says
I’m with Goldie on this one.
If a man has been dating you for close to 2 months, and you’ve been very receptive to his asking you out and you’ve given him plenty of other signals that you’re interested in him and enjoy his company, then he should know by now that you’re not going to randomly turn him down if he asks you out again. Even if he is a so-called beta male.
I would not offer to make him dinner (or dinner-bed-and-breakfast). That’s doing way, way, way too much of the heavy lifting at this stage of the game. I would suggest that you find some activity or event that you want to attend (and would attend solo in the absence of a date) and call & ask him if he’d like to join you. If he says yes, that’s great. If he says no, then you can attend solo & still have a good time.
If he attends & enjoys your company, then he should be savvy enough to return the favor & ask you out for a future date – without too many heavy hints or overt prompting from you.
When push comes to shove, even if a guy is a beta male, he can’t expect you to do all the asking. If he really wants to see you more than once every 7 days – especially if you’ve expressed interest in seeing him more than once every 7 days – then he will find a way to make it happen.
And if he doesn’t, then you have your answer – and need to cut him loose and find some one who does want to spend time with you more than once a week, and who’s not scared to show it.
Robyn says
P.S. “Getting To I Do” by Dr Pat Allen has some very good info on the masculine-feminine dynamic in a relationship, and how to go about things when you (as a woman) are the more “masculine energy” partner in the relationship.
marymary says
When I suggest we go out, my boyfriend always asks where I would like to go. AGH! Some peeps are like that and as “faults” go it’s quite minor. He’s loyal, kind and funny, but he won’t be surprising me with tickets to Paris. Just as well, I don’t like Paris.
If it makes you feel better, think of it as co piloting rather than taking the lead.
Kathleen says
I got Evans “Why he Disappeared” book and loved it!!
Another book I love is by Ali Binazir who wrote the Tao of Dating He might describe this guy as a guy with a heart and no spine.
I think a guy who has a lot of feminine energy,( who is more passive indecisive and lacks initiative) is probably ideally paired with a woman with a lot of masculine energy.
For a woman though who is more in her feminine, this sort of guy may bring a flatness of passion and lack of sexual polarity.
I like Binazirs description of heart and spine in men. Ive met jerks with no compassion who are very masculine (No heart but spine). Also have met a kind loving guy who has a great heart but lacks a life purpose and direction(spine) Im on the lookout for someone with both!
This guy sounds so passive that I would definitely want some sort of confirmation that hes actually interested
Rose says
Seems nuts to me and overfuctioning to invite him anywhere and cook him dinner if you want to motivate and inspire him to step up. All that will do is reinforce his passive feminine behavior and not motiavte hmi to want to step up and become a man. Sounds crazy bf can’t be bothered to invite to do anything so I will chase him and reward him treating me like that by offferig to cook him dinner. Where’s the natural consequense for not making plans if you do this? Be less availablle and take yourself where you want you go. Unless you want to be the one doing the invuting, being the social director, over fucntioning and taking the lead always as that is what you will set yourself up for and being the man. Do you really want a a realtionship like that?
Kareen says
I agree with u Rose. All of that is overfunctioning and being the social director of the relationship according to a popular dating coach. All of that is chasing. I made a mistake of being the social director of the last relationship I was in and u know what happened-he disappeared. That’s right. After that I subscribed to a dating coach newsletters and got the shock of my life when I read one of her newsletters which defined that many of the activities I was doing was chasing and I was being the social director of the relationship. That was a lesson for me, I tell u. Never again. Any guy who I am involved with will have to play the masculine role so I can be sure of his interest in me.
Karl R says
Michelle asked: (original letter)
“he’ll wait FOREVER, (in actuality, 5-7 days) before asking to see me again. What gives?”
During my first serious relationship, I was rather shy. This caused me to be reluctant to take the initiative. I was comfortable maintaining the relationship at it’s current level, because that was low risk. Even though I wanted a more serious relationship, escalating the relationship to a more serious level felt risky … except when I already knew that my girlfriend wanted to get more serious.
Best case scenario: he’s not sure how you’ll react if he asks you out more frequently, which makes him reluctant to escalate things.
Robyn said: (#17)
“If he really wants to see you more than once every 7 days — especially if you’ve expressed interest in seeing him more than once every 7 days — then he will find a way to make it happen.”
I agree with this assessment. If you let him know that you’d like to see him more frequently, either he will ask you out more frequently, or you’ll know he’s not interested.
m said: (#5)
“So … dude gets dinner and the company of his lovely gf. She has to call him up & invite him, make the plans, buy the groceries, plan the meal, make the whole thing (three courses at least, I’m sure), find the time to decorate both the house and herself, and charm him all evening …? I hope dude brings at minimum his best behavior, some thanks for the excellent meal, and two bottles of her favorite wine.”
I agree with Frimmel (#12). Reverse the genders and it’s a normal date night from a man’s perspective. If things go well, he gets her best behavior and some thanks.
I’ve never gotten two bottles of wine out of the deal.
m,
You have a very one-sided view of “reciprocity”.
m says
@Frimmel –
Not the first idea where you were going with that. Principally becaus:
a) two words: wage gap.
b) in the scenario you’ve pseudo-created up there (seriously, dude; you’re going to just jack my hypothetical? Maybe a little originality next time) “gal” is usually, at minimum, the sous chef and doing the dishes. At least *this* gal is, when her man offers to cook dinner. I don’t know what lazy girls *you’re* dating — maybe that’s worth some thought on your part.
🙂
🙂
starthrower68 says
I was married to a passive beta male for 12 years. It was very difficult.
Yuri says
I suppose some betas fall into this category, and some don’t. Perhaps others are more omega as Henriette likes to call them (I think that’s quite witty and cute).
In high school, my beta ex didn’t ask me to be his girlfriend until he was sure I liked him…but we never went out on dates – it was just the ultimate question. Now in my 20s, I’ve noticed that betas will text and make plans for dates. If I went on one date, and I’m receptive to their texts afterward, they will ask me out almost immediately.
I’ve honestly never experienced a beta who didn’t ask me out on dates if I was communicating openly with him, so this is a bit weird to me. Believe me, I’ve been out with some pretty shy guys. So if he didn’t make plans, I would think he wasn’t interested much like the writer.
Perhaps if he is expecting her to make plans…or doesn’t know what to plan, that would make sense. If it bothers her, I would just tell the guy that I would like it if he planned some activities that he enjoys. I would hate to just do things I want to do. Switching it up is fun. Tactically, this is fairly assertive…I use it on my boyfriend sometimes. ha
S says
I’m just so excited to even see this post about men who aren’t necessarily take charge all the time. I wish more dating advice folks would speak more to this.
And yes, Evan do add that caveat to Why He Disappeared. Maybe a section on why the beta (for lack of a better term for it I can think of at his second) disappeared? So much advice is based on the idea that men like to be men and pursue and that a woman be in her feminine energy and let him do that. Well, much of your advice Evan is like that. But as someone above said, it’s not always so binary. Sure a woman should adjust to the man she’s with but if she’s asking advice or reading books, she’s not sure who she’s got just yet.
Even though I don’t believe males and females are always so squarely one way or the other, I do wonder if the less assertive male ever changes. You once wrote that men don’t go both ways and I think about that. Sure, a woman can take charge now and then but with some men she’ll always have to take charge. I really hope there are more men out there in the middle. But not much advice out there talks about that.
Anyway, just so pleased that you chose this letter. More info on different types of men and women!
M says
I really don’t know any men who wishes to be dominated by women, lol 😀 only in bed tough heheheh.Oh well, I don’t know, you Americans and Brits make dating sound pretty darn repulsive in Europe it’s quite simple!.You ask people, and they either reject you in a polite manner, or they give you a chance and you start dating!.There are no “games” because that is the mark of broken societies!.
Three things that is actually slowing U.S:Broken Society and Sex wars
Constant global conflict, and warfare caused by your agencies
Media brainwashing, and poor educational system….
So when all is said and done, you can’t even blame people for behaving as you do that was installed upon you.One more thing using terms such as Alpha and Beta is dehumanizing to the very least!.You need to remove your prejudices, and stereotypes, if you wish well upon your society, it’s really that simple my dear woman!.
Fiona says
Your best post this thread. I guess we should all stop pyschoanalysing. I would hate to have a guy constantly taking advice online and trying to get into my head – it’s complicated, believe me. I can’t even figure myself out sometimes.
William Brown says
I agree. I think the labelings alpha and beta is irrelevant because we as human being are not monolith beings. How one act or behave one day maybe different the next. Hell I can be alpha, beta, gamma, delta, zeta, and/or omega all at the same time.
Frimmel says
M in #23
With regards to A, this is not the blog/place for that discussion. I’ll just throw out my own old canard — fatality gap. Men are 92% of workplace fatalities (yes I can link to the stats.) I’ll also ask again, “Do men have to pay for dates because they make more money or do they make more money because they have to pay for dates?” I’m willing to leave it at that in a we’ll have to agree to disagree and will cede you the final word.
With regard to B, I’m simply pointing out you most likely wouldn’t date a man with the attitude you expressed. But did you consider how that attitude sounds to men? But as Karl R. pointed out it is the expectation nearly all the women here expressed/express. It is business as usual for men. Men make plans. Men take charge. Men pay. Men initiate. Men step up and take responsibility. Men earn a woman’s affection.
But then you want to throw out “wage gap?”
For most guys, they follow orders. We do what others tell us at work. For most men, particularly men under thirty/thirty-five they’ve been taught all their lives to respect and defer to women. Women teachers. Their mother who divorced their father that they never got to see. “Don’t be that guy.” Look at the derision in which the “Game” guys/PUA are typically held for what at reducto ad absurdum amounts to “stop putting women on a pedestal.”
Men’s spaces in society have been eliminated. The person at work who tells him what to do is just as likely to be a woman as a man. A woman might have gotten the scholarship and his place in the prestigious school. Then she got his job and expected him to pay for dinner after condescending to go out with him.
Fathers on TV are held in contempt and constantly portrayed as dupes and idiots. “Middle aged straight white male” is frequently used as derogatory. Unless the “bad guy” in movies is a middle eastern terrorist he’s probably a white male. There aren’t a lot of positive images of masculinity allowed. You should here a couple of my married men friends when I tell them they can’t defer to their wives all the time. They can’t process it.
Yet many of the women in this thread seem a bit out of sorts that men aren’t manly enough?
***smh***
Kiki says
Mirroring is a great concept, and works wonders in all walks of life. Actually, it is a concept that I heard about many years before this blog, in a game theory class (prisoners dilemma, etc). It boils down to the following common sense advice: give reward for behavior that you like, withhold reward for behavior you dislike.
So, Evan’s advice in this case is to discontinue mirroring, which I find illogical. I find it strange that this concept would not apply to the so-called beta men. I think we need Evan to elaborate a bit more on this.
By the way, I am married to someone who was shy and would not hit on a woman even if she was walking around with a huge sign “I have a huge crush on you” on her head. Getting him to the point of claiming me as his girlfriend took months, and then it took almost five years of ripening to the idea that he wants to marry me (I knew much earlier than him, but bit my tongue, and waited). I never dared to rush him, now I am wondering whether I could have had things faster.
josavant says
The problem is that you don’t know whether you’re dating a beta or a guy who is not just that into you. How are you supposed to tell the difference?
Evan gives advice here as though this guy were definitely a beta as the OP said, so give him a chance. The problem is that this is also the way a guy acts when he’s not that interested, but might as well get some free sex (and meals while he’s at it). We have nothing but the OP’s word to go on that he’s a beta. The truth is that the OP herself may not know.
Tom answered in another page that he didn’t act interested or initiate for two ladies who were into him at the same time. he said that if they had taken a step back and saw how little effort he was putting into being with them, they would have stopped after a few days. This OP hasn’t stopped after a month. It makes you wonder if her guy is like Tom (just not that interested) rather than being beta.
Sorry OP. Being “kind, attentive and affectionate” is not that much effort. I can do that to anyone I’m not into, and it just sounds like justification for you wanting to stay with him.
Paula says
How are we defining Beta/Alpha? I as well think these are bogus terms. To me a true ‘Alpha’ is someone with real power and runs a company with thousands of people under his leadership. Someone like Obama or Gates. Most men by my definition would be considered Beta.
Anyways, I had one guy hit on me and was very aggressive but I would classify him as Beta. Very passive, not really a strong leader. He obviously was hungry for a girlfriend and I wasn’t interested in him but I think Betas can be aggressive when necessary.
Tim says
LOL! Are you serious? My life coach would laugh his ass off, like I am, right now, about your definition of what an ‘alpha male’ really is to you…because it’s so shallow, close-minded, and selfish.
I don’t mean to offend you, but comments like yours, make me smile 🙂
If power and money is all you care about, then more ‘power’ to you lol xD
By all means, if buying your love and bribing you is what it takes to get you in bed, then I salute you Paula.
In what way was the guy hitting on you aggressive?
‘Hungry for a girlfriend?’, so that tells me he exhibited behavior that he was desperate, am I right?
Are you sure you didn’t just mistake ‘aggressive’ for confident?
HP says
I think you misunderstand her message.
The ability to get money and power like Obama and Gates is what makes them alpha. Not the money and power itself.
In her beta example, the inability to control his own emotion makes him a beta. Hence her aggressive beta example.
Karl R says
Kiki said: (#28)
“So, Evan’s advice in this case is to discontinue mirroring, which I find illogical. I find it strange that this concept would not apply to the so-called beta men.”
You misunderstand how this works. Even for men (under more normal dating situations), the concept of mirroring still has value. It just changes slightly.
When I was dating my wife (and previous girlfriends), I didn’t start out by mirroring them. Instead, I initiated, then watched to see if they were mirroring me. If not, I adjusted my actions to a more appropriate level based on their response.
For the most part, I was effectively mirroring the woman’s response to my behavior. The only times I moved beyond that was when I wanted to move the relationship to another level. After taking the initiative, I sat back and waited to see what the response would be.
josavant said: (#29)
“The problem is that this is also the way a guy acts when he’s not that interested,”
Women (usually) don’t take the initiative. However, I’m willing to bet each woman recognizes the difference in how she acts when she’s dating a man that she’s into versus one she’s indifferent to.
It’s less obvious, but there still should be some indications.
m said: (#23)
“two words: wage gap”
Does that mean that you do all the planning and paying when you’re dating a man who earns less than you?
If not, I fail to see where “reciprocity” enters your equation.
JoJOe says
I call this “Good House Keeping”
This man is an Alpha in Beta’s clothing. Sets her up, and keeps her wondering.
So mm.. an Alpha and a Player. She thinks she has all the power of Olympus he stacked the cards in her favor. She thinks he’s as sweet as the pie she made him.
She originally feels in control until she feels totally out of control. She’s now under his thumb because he’s sent her mixed messages. He’s aware of it, she thinks he is not aware because she thinks he’s “just” a Beta. Oh, he’ll be back alright, but this time she’ll be opening the door to his Alpha and his Omega. Tables will turn and if she’s not on her best behavior for him, he’ll manipulate her into being that. Why?
Because he can leave. Anyone on the planet with 1/2 a deck knows all about wanting what we can’t have. Anyone exercising that knowledge for power and control is a player, abuser, the list goes on in all the wrong directions.
She can stop this by doing a few things.
1) What the hell on gods good earth is he doing in her house?
My place and address are totally off limits to you until you’ve proven your trust and a healthy character.
2) She’s let down her guard. Allowing in all his fancy niceties, means nothing. Acting 101 can do that. Let her see him with people, friends, public in a crowd.
What the hell has happened to “courting” it doesn’t happen in a box with a fox. Well that is were you’ll find them. Those foxes. Get the hell out and into a crowd. Observance is crucial to figuring out an others character. Lets see how he deals with my brothers or the waitress or his buddies or my buddies. Getting you alone, on your turf, true nonsense and dangerous.
4) She waits…… for what? for her abandonment issue to be soothed through the very guy that is causing them. Time waits for no one and it’s the only thing in life besides our own skins that we actually in the REAL world have a DATE with.
Let him NOT call her all he wants. Her time limit has expired, obviously and with good reason, she hears her instincts but negates them.
5) Have a good life, a busy happy one. Where you won’t feel tempted to prove your worth or busy yourself in others’ affairs.
If he calls she should say “Oh, hello, how have you been, so many wonderful things happening this week”
Not as a ploy, a cover, a curt, but because SO MANY WONDERFUL THINGS ARE HAPPENING
Elle says
YES!!!!!!!!!!!! I agree with you a 100%.
Goldie says
@ Frimmel
I cannot speak to the majority of your post, because I don’t believe there’s a war on men, just like I don’t believe there’s a war on Christmas. This, however
“Look at the derision in which the “Game” guys/PUA are typically held for what at reducto ad absurdum amounts to “stop putting women on a pedestal.”
Um, no, that’s not what it amounts to. It amounts to using people for one’s own short-term means. People, not necessarily women. If I knew any gay PUA, I’d hold them in derision too.
Kiki says
@Frimmel 27
A woman might have gotten HIS place at the prestigious school?
You will not be making many friends around here.
Kiki says
@Karl R 31,
Probably I really do not understand all; it becomes really complicated at some point:I am watching you watching me watching you… Ahhhhhh. With my own husband, for a while I thought he was fully aware that I am madly in love with me, but was playing games to torture me.
But let me ask you then – how/when do you/did you decide that you want to move the relationship to the next level (whatever it is)? Do men need to be given hints, do you need to be given signs? It boils back to the question that Josavant asked – how do you tell whether the man is passive because he does not like you or he is passive because he is passive?
Marie says
I think whether a guy is alpha or beta you need to pay attention to whether the quality of the relationship is progressing or are you two stagnating emotionally without any deepening of feelings. Maybe you are going out once a week for months because that’s just the level of comfort he has. If you find that this continues for several months and you are not growing closer then this is bad. Even a beta male will find some way to deepen the relationship. Maybe his style just is not a good match for you. Men who like you generally try to find some way to be closer to you, even beta males.
@Frimmel – what do you mean women who take men’s jobs and prestigious spots in school? Last I checked these spots did not belong to men. The fact that a previously male dominated culture blocked women from these spots until WWII is a bad mark on our history not something to be lauded. I walk through the halls of my alma mater. The stories of how difficult it is for women to become professors as recently as 10 years ago despite having the same qualifications is terrible. Even today there is significant gender bias. It’s not even about equal pay. We are still trying to get equal opportunity.
Frimmel says
Kiki in #34
How about we amend my comment to “beaten him for a place at a prestigious school.” You are quite correct it was not “his” place. However the broader point stands and in fact is better made with your correction. She is his better, she has quite literally bested him, yet she is confused that he is not taking the role of superior/in charge/dominance.
judy says
For me, a passive male is ok as long as you know he’s passive – but you have to do all the work. Personally, I’d ask if he was interested or not, and if he has other girlfriends. Done, and the guy ran a mile, so onto the next. (And yes, he does have other girlfriends who sit by and wait sweetly until he rings – which he does, when he wants to).
I cannot imagine a relationship where I have to do all the organising – maybe after a few dates, this could be discussed.
But it sounds to me more like a date from pure hell.
Julia says
Frimmel #37
She is his better, she has quite literally bested him, yet she is confused that he is not taking the role of superior/in charge/dominance.
Are you suggesting that all women have bested all men? I think that’s a strange way to view the world. I can be an Alpha female at work because I have to be, or else no one would ever listen to me. However, in my dating life and hopefully in my family life, I want to be much more feminine. Are you advocating a complete gender reversal, that women are aggressors and men lean back?
Tim says
‘I want to be much more feminine’, says the girl with a picture of a red panda for an icon haha 🙂
Scott says
Tips from a beta male on how to detect us. If you ask the male to take charge, and he suggests the next activity, and you object: note the reaction. The alpha male may argue for his original suggestion, or he may graciously engage in a conversation about a substitute. A beta male will feel shame at having been “wrong” about what to propose. And will likely agree swiftly to whatever substitute you suggest. Which points out the downside of a beta male. We lie. We want you to tell us what you like so we can say “yes, that sounds great”. We aren’t going to tell you what we really like until waaaayyyyy later when we are much more confident that you will stay with us despite our expressing disagreement.
So when you are thinking about pushing a beta male to take responsibility for more of the planning and initiation stages, be careful what you wish for. He isn’t going to take kindly to you objecting to his choices. After all, you MADE him take the initiative. If he suggests something and you say no, that was exactly the rejection he was seeking to avoid by not initiating in the first place!
Not suggesting that any female should want to be with a beta male. But if you choose to go this route, realize you are going to get both sides of the package. He is more likely to acquiesce to your requests. He is less likely to initiate.
kira says
“Which points out the downside of a beta male. We lie. We want you to tell us what you like so we can say “yes, that sounds great”. We aren’t going to tell you what we really like until waaaayyyyy later when we are much more confident that you will stay with us despite our expressing disagreement.”
This kind of behavior drives me insane! I don’t get it. Don’t you want to find someone who also shares at least some of your interests or who is interested in your opinions? I’ve dated a couple guys like this. They would always agree with me even when I was talking nonsense. They would always only agree to activities that I’d chosen and insist on paying for everything (the only time they would ever cross me). I felt like a slavemaster, not a girlfriend.
When they would start feeling comfortable and voicing their opinions, it was a shock. We were very different people, but like you said they didn’t want me to break up with them, so they never disagreed with me. I don’t get that. I’m not Jessica Alba or Angelina Jolie. (If I had a chance with them, I might act the same way, at least for a few months.) Far from it. I’m not some once in a lifetime fish that will tell stories to grandkids about.
Value yourself. Don’t be a jerk, but voice your opinions. Balance your compromises. On the flipside, don’t begin a relationship on deception. It’s manipulative. It’s not a fun feeling to find out after a few months that, you don’t really know who you’re dating.
starthrower68 says
Maybe the beta male will learn to speak up. Maybe he will not and grow resentful and resort to passive aggression.
Y says
I feel like people are evaluating wording more than content here. If Frimmel wanted to say all women have bested all men, he would have come out and said that.
I believe what he is trying to say via examples is that the traditional roles of men and women have become more skewed over the years. However, the traditional expectations that are placed on men (even women, Frimmel) have not deviated to the same degree.
Women are now more educated, more sexually aggressive, more headstrong. We may not have total equality, but we’ve come a long way since the 1920’s. We’re out wearing pants and sneakers and not wearing all this makeup and being ultra-feminine like we were once expected to be. The expectation has diminished to an extent. It’s no longer severely frowned upon if a woman holds a job instead of being a housewife…if she gets married in her 30’s or 40’s…if she can’t cook. Almost all women I know in their 20’s can’t cook to save themselves from starving. Generally, this is not surprising to any of us. But a MAN cooking…well…that’s amazing!
What is expected of us has changed…and as a result, our personalities and world views have changed, too. But when women take on roles traditionally delegated to men, some women still expect those men to be ultra-masculine, gun-toting, belligerant, and tough creatures. The roles have already changed, but the views and expectations are still changing. It’s more socially acceptable to be a savvy businesswoman than to be a stay-at-home dad. But why?
Julia says
I should preface this by saying I am both a feminist and someone wants a good egalitarian relationship.
Y #41
We’re out wearing pants and sneakers and not wearing all this makeup and being ultra-feminine like we were once expected to be.
Uh, I don’t really wear pants or sneakers. I wear makeup and I’m pretty darn feminine, even if I work in a more male dominated field.
But when women take on roles traditionally delegated to men, some women still expect those men to be ultra-masculine, gun-toting, belligerant, and tough creatures.
Good God, I don’t want that. That sounds terrible.
It’s more socially acceptable to be a savvy businesswoman than to be a stay-at-home dad. But why?
Well, I think the times are a changin’. I personally will never be able to support a man to stay at home, just as many men will not be able to support a wife. But there is some indication that young, highly successful women in high pressure careers, like doctors, are marrying creative, work at home type men who will take care of the kids. I see men pushing strollers around everyday, by themselves where I live so I will suspect this will become more common as time wears on.
Now, I know we talked about the concept of men paying for dates ad nauseum on here but from my personal experience, every man I’ve dated has been nothing but 100% generous to me. So I think there are still plenty of men following a masculine role and plenty of women playing the feminine.
Karl R says
Kiki asked: (#35)
“But let me ask you then — how/when do you/did you decide that you want to move the relationship to the next level (whatever it is)?”
The first step was easy. I just figured out what I wanted.
The second part was much harder. I had to determine whether it was what the woman wanted, or whether I was sabotaging the relationship by acting too soon.
Kiki asked: (#35)
“Do men need to be given hints, do you need to be given signs?”
What do you think of men who try to pursue a relationship (or a more serious relationship) when you’ve deliberately given them no indication that you’re interested in progressing further?
Of course men need to be given some sort of hint or sign.
And even when you’re giving signs, men aren’t always sure that your signals are clear. There is no universal system of hints or signals that all women use. If you’re under the impression that men are oblivious because they repeatedly miss the signals you send, it’s probably because we’ve gotten more encouraging signals from women who had no romantic interest in us.
Kiki asked: (#35)
“how do you tell whether the man is passive because he does not like you or he is passive because he is passive?”
To a certain extent, you figure it out over time.
When I asked my wife to marry me, she said yes. It was pretty clear that she liked me. Long before then, our conversations had given me a rather strong indication that she saw long-term potential in our relationship.
But for the first few months, it was wait-and-see. I knew she found me attractive. I knew she enjoyed my company. I knew she liked the sex. But it also seemed like she was keeping her options open.
That’s part of the process.
S said: (#26)
“I really hope there are more men out there in the middle. But not much advice out there talks about that.”
There are, but the middle isn’t the perfect place that you’re imagining. You’re not going to get a man who always takes charge when you want him to but graciously lets you take the lead when you want to. Instead, you’ll get a man who sometimes wants you to take the lead when you’d rather not, and who sometimes vetoes the plan you’ve already made because he doesn’t like it.
There’s no shortage of men in the middle. It’s still a trade-off, however.
marymary says
I just want a man who does exactly what I want without me losing respect for him.
why is that so hard?
🙂
handson says
I don’t like all these omegas betas etc classifications.. It seems like some computer game for psychology grads on here sometimes.
My hunch is he doesn’t like going out much or doesn’t due to work or prefers familiarity of his routine so therefore isn’t necessarily full of ideas where to take you. This will take a little bit of time to encourage him to step out of his comfort zone.
Is he a problem solver? if so, give him a problem and let him do his thing. If he plans something (which might be unusual for him) and it doesn’t go to plan DO NOT say ‘oh I know a great place, let’s go’ and take over. Resist that urge even though you may know a great place. This will make you less happy as well.
Shaukat says
@Goldie 33
“Um, no, that’s not what it amounts to. It amounts to using people for one’s own short-term means. People, not necessarily women. If I knew any gay PUA, I’d hold them in derision too.”
There might be a small percentage of individuals within this community for whom the purpose of ‘the game’ is to simply use women/people for sex and then discard them. However, the vast majority of the PUA lit aims to teach awkward or shy guys how to overcome their social inhibitions and approach anxiety so that they can get better results when dating. The fact that guys who learn from PUAs don’t go on to form relationships with every woman they end up dating or sleeping with does not mean that they are “using people for one’s own short-term means,” unless you would also characterize every woman who allowed a man to pay for dinner/drinks on the first couple dates and then deciding not to pursue things further as a “user.”
Chance says
Julia said (#39)
“I can be an Alpha female at work because I have to be, or else no one would ever listen to me.”
I’m sorry that you work in an environment like that. Where I work, people prefer it when their co-workers are more collaborative, whether they are male or female. However, I believe that your feelings are common among women in the workforce. I’ve gotten the impression that a lot of my female co-workers feel that they need to be extra assertive in order for people (particularly men) to pay attention to them. I wish they knew that the majority of men don’t care that they’re women, and that they are just trying to get through the daily grind just like their female counterparts.
However, in my dating life and hopefully in my family life, I want to be much more feminine.
I think that’s why so many men, young men in particular, have become confused and frustrated. They grew up seeing women as equals, so a lot of them have a hard time understanding why a lot of women expect men to pay for dates and make more money than they do. I think that Y in #41 really hit the nail on the head in her comment.
Are you advocating a complete gender reversal, that women are aggressors and men lean back?
I certainly don’t want that. I just want equality for men and women – in the workforce and in dating.
Julia said (#42)
“Now, I know we talked about the concept of men paying for dates ad nauseum on here but from my personal experience, every man I’ve dated has been nothing but 100% generous to me. So I think there are still plenty of men following a masculine role and plenty of women playing the feminine.”
I’m going to go out on a limb and say that the reason the majority of men you date are paying for dates is because they believe that it’s expected of them (mainly because it is). It isn’t really out of generosity. They know that if they don’t, they won’t last long with most women. I say this because of the conversations that guys have with each other. Most younger men hate, and I mean HATE, the fact that they are expected to always pay for dates. However, the women they’re dating will almost never know that. Most guys will make sure that they appear to be happy to always pick up the check. Only a few of us are bold enough to walk away after a few dates where the woman has not offered to pay.
Rose says
Paying equal on dates makes it feels like friends rather than a romantic date
I want romance in my dating life. I want to feel like the woman not the man or buddies.
So any man who prefers to treat me like a buddy and go dutch, is fine, it then feels best to recipriacte and put them in the friends in the freinds category. Not a problem just turns me off romantically and I need to be turned on for romance.
Y 41, because most women want to stay at home with their babies and children while they are young. And mix with other mums with babies and children. Most men don’t.
We are more tuned into our young children it’s a primitive thing, what we are designed to do.
And most men still earn more, so it makes economical sense.
There a few stay at home Dads, but not many.
Kiki says
@marymary 44
You are kind of modest in your wishes too :-). I want a man who can read my thoughts, wants the same things as I want, and offers to do exactly what I want, out of his own free will. When I meet him, my current oblivious and obstinate husband who claims that men and women are just hardwired to want different things, will be be in real jeopardy :-).
Clare says
I’ve always thought the most attractive people, both men and women, were those who had a mix of both masculine and feminine energy, alpha and beta qualities. I also don’t like this typing of people into a particular label or category, such as “she’s aggressive” or “he’s a beta” as so many people are able to switch roles and change tack as the situation calls for it.
For example, an attractive man for me would be someone who was content to do the pursuing in the beginning (the first few months to a year, say) but would be fine with it if I sometimes initiated communication, or occasionally invited him to things, or occasionally initiated sex. As we become more comfortable with each other, and I become more confident, I would expect the energy to even out more. As long as things feel comfortable to both of us, I don’t see the need for these strict rules, I do find it a little bit restrictive and they don’t always work in every situation. I find a flow feels better.
I used to be quite reserved and shy and would always let the guy do all of the initiating, and I do still wait for that in the beginning when dating someone, however I’ve become more confident with doing what feels right in the moment. I feel similarly about the payment thing – initially it feels great for a guy to pay for the first few dates, and after a little while I see no reason why there can’t be more of a flow and things can be more equal. I can definitely see a fluidity of the gender roles becoming more apparent.
Kiki says
@Karl R 43.
Very, very interesting, so thank you very much.
Can we discuss some more the ambiguity of signs…
You said:
“What do you think of men who try to pursue a relationship (or a more serious relationship) when you’ve deliberately given them no indication that you’re interested in progressing further?”
Actually, I (and I think most women) when they want a relationship to go no further will very clearly say NO. To my mind, lack of signs means yes (a silent consent) for the man to show his true colors and what level of effort he is ready to put in me/how hot he thinks I am.
I personally would have no problem to go and tell a man I like him, if it was just that. But if I was in love… My God, I would be so shy and scared, because possible rejection from the one you are in love with is such a heartbreak. I would be practically frozen, giving no signs, and losing my sleep tryin to figure out whether he likes me or not.
By the way, what do you think about this alpha/beta classification and where would you fall on that scale?
josavant says
Chance- though you bring up good points, the OP’s letter is probably not, at the bottom of it, about traditional gender roles, even if she talks about beta or alpha. It’s about whether this guy cares enough about her for a relationship to be worth the effort.
Karl R wrote earlier that we can figure out whether a guy is into us by reversing roles and seeing how we would treat a guy if we are into them or not. Though I am not alpha woman, if I liked a guy, I would make an effort to see him more than once a week- I would want to see him at least twice a week if not more. This OP’s guy only makes plans to get together every 5-7 days, which probably means he’s seeing her less than once a week. How into her can he be?
This is not about beta. This is about a guy who doesn’t care much, and the OP can’t let him go because she implies she’s been with bad guys in the past, so now she has to hang on to whoever gives her the time of day nicely. She should cut her losses and move on to the next nice guy (alpha or beta) who cares for her.
Frimmel says
Y in #41: Yes, that is more or less what I was getting at.
Karl R in #43: re signs/hints/indications
Pretty much agree in total with everything he said. For many guys not interested, shy, and hard to get look exactly the same.
Mary in #44: re “Read my mind and to the right thing.” (which ties to hints and signs a bit)
You know most guys get that. We’re just supposed to “know” what to do, when to do it, and know these things without being told. One of the differences between alphas and betas is what they can do about it.
An alpha can be wrong because there are plenty of other girls who want to date him. He can afford many dates so if one doesn’t go so well… next.
A beta has fewer options and can less afford dates that don’t go so well. He’s under more pressure to get it right so of course it goes wrong because he’s trying to hard when he’s just supposed to effortlessly get it exactly right.
That part of what PUA are trying to teach. More approaches, more dates, more girls in rotation, dates that don’t cost. Get the pressure off to get this only date you’re gonna have for months right.
One of the biggest boosts to a guy’s confidence is being sure the gal likes him. “Interest in me” is very attractive and can turn indifference around on a dime (it won’t overcome needing to go a lot easier on the pie and cookies though.)
So guys get “read my mind and do the right thing.” We all hate it. Even the alphas who mostly know better how to “play” it. The guys who especially hate it are the ones who will be impressed with your brains and your schooling and your travel and your career. They’re the guys who took “equality” to heart.
Equality to those guys means being accountable and fair and responsible a “read my mind and do the right thing” attitude is most decidedly not equal and not fair. It frees women to shift the goal posts and frees them from accountability. If you don’t say what you want it isn’t your fault when you don’t get it, is it? If that is allowed as a feminine prerogative how is that equal? (Yes, NAWALT.)
Do women really not see the double standards and the lose/lose situations they so often put men (particularly men who believe in fairness and decency and being honorable and don’t want to dominate/control people) in?
Goldie says
@ Shaukat 46
This is news to me. I admit that I am not terribly familiar with PUA culture. So I looked it up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickup_artist
“A pickup artist is a man who trains in the skills and art of finding, attracting, and seducing women[citation needed]. Such a man purportedly abides by a certain system deemed effective by that community in his attempts to seduce women.
The use of pickup in this context, slang for making a casual acquaintance with a stranger in anticipation of sexual relations, dates from at least World War II
(…)
Routines and gambits are developed to stimulate purported “attraction switches” often combined with techniques derived from an alleged form of hypnosis called neuro-linguistic programming.[ ”
Sorry, still sounds like using people to me. Especially the last paragraph, which additionally sounds like manipulating people into doing things your way.
Goldie says
@ Frimmel 52
“We’re just supposed to “know” what to do, when to do it, and know these things without being told.”
Guess what? So are we! 🙂 It’s not a man vs woman thing. It’s an overall dating thing. It is part of the dating game. Why do you say it’s a woman’s prerogative? I’ve never had a guy present me with a list of things he wants on a first date, either. (Which is probably a good thing; it would’ve freaked me out.)
I had this conversation with a male buddy of mine just the other day. His friend had apparently hit it off with a woman, they went on one date, and then, out of the blue, she pulled back and doesn’t even say hi to him now when she runs into him in public. My friend’s takeaway from it was, “Women are weird, you guys don’t know what you want, you never tell us what you what or what we did wrong”… I told him that, in most cases, the woman knows exactly what happened, but believes it would be easier on the man if she says nothing, than if she gives him a detailed explanation. Same goes for men doesn’t it? Isn’t it easier on all sides, after a bad first date, for a man to text the woman “i had fun” and disappear, than for him to tell her “there will be no second date because you’re a sloppy drunk” or “your breath stinks” or “you’ve got to lay off that pie” etc?
And here’s something else. If things didn’t work out after one date, or a few dates, no matter what reason the other side gives or whether they do not give any reason at all, that’s pretty much a hundred percent guarantee that they would not have worked out long term. So why drag it out and waste both people’s time? She or he is doing you a favor by disappearing.
PS. I do agree with the commenters that say that the concepts of alpha and beta are overrated. That said, some people are in fact less assertive than the others. But that’s probably more due to their lack of experience than to their order in a pack or whatever.
marymary says
Goldie @ 53
And it doesn’t even work.
Rashawn says
Wow, most women (including myself) who is a typical Type A would find it maddening to be with a beta man. I find that if I have to drive every area of my life including my relationship/marriage I don’t want any parts of it.
I need the Alpha man to stand up and meet me to create my happily ever after.
marymary says
Rashawn
True, but unfortunately many alpha men are not looking for Type As. They have enough of that at work.
David T says
@Kiki50
“Actually, I (and I think most women) when they want a relationship to go no further will very clearly say NO. To my mind, lack of signs means yes (a silent consent) for the man to show his true colors and what level of effort he is ready to put in me/how hot he thinks I am.”
I think you are projecting how you are onto other women. In my experience with the ones who lost interest in me before I did in them, very few have been direct about it, maybe one in four or five. The usual scenario I have encountered is a sudden change in responsiveness, perhaps hoping that the guy will just figure it out and go away after a while. It is very annoying because I am spending time and energy interacting with a wall just in case she is simply too busy because something has come up.
Of the few that have been direct, I am can still be friends with and am in some cases. With the others I close it out with how she seems to have lost interest, that is OK, good luck and encourage her to be more direct. Costs me nothing because I have written her off and gives her an opening if I am wrong and the problem is a bunch of stuff came up in her life all at once.
Passive-aggressively “testing” a man’s interest is not a winning strategy. It is insecure and likely to send an unintended signal to any guy who has had a few brushes with the indirect women. It certainly would not have worked well with your husband, eh Kiki?
Karl R says
Regarding ambiguity of signs:
Kiki said: (#50)
“Actually, I (and I think most women) when they want a relationship to go no further will very clearly say NO.”
Really?
Yesterday, I overheard the following conversation between two female coworkers:
“I hope he doesn’t think I like him.”
The male coworker (who was being discussed) was not party to this conversation.
Most women quietly hope that relationship will go no further, so they can avoid any potentially uncomfortable confrontations. They start to withdraw and hope the man gets the hint. A few (discourteous) women will pull a vanishing act. They only say “NO” when it becomes obvious that it’s necessary.
Kiki said: (#50)
“To my mind, lack of signs means yes (a silent consent) for the man to show his true colors and what level of effort he is ready to put in me/how hot he thinks I am.”
If that’s the case, 95% of the women in the world are interested in me, have given their silent consent, and are just waiting for me to show my true colors and the level of effort I’m ready to put into a relationship with them.
And those same women are equally interested in most of the rest of the men in the world.
Ask your husband what he thinks about this “silent consent” concept.
Kiki said: (#50)
“But if I was in love… My God, I would be so shy and scared, because possible rejection from the one you are in love with is such a heartbreak. I would be practically frozen, giving no signs, and losing my sleep tryin to figure out whether he likes me or not.”
It’s no surprise that your husband had no clue that you were madly in love with him. (#35)
You’re not alone in the way you would feel. Over half the population (men and women) describe themselves as chronically shy. So over half the men are shy, scared, practically frozen, losing sleep trying to figure out whether the woman likes them, and trying to avoid the possible rejection from the object of their infatuation.
It should be easy for you put yourself in the shoes of those men.
So you’re scared and practically frozen. The man has given no sign that he’s interested. Are you going to conclude that he has given his silent consent and make the first move?
Of course you won’t. Neither will the men.
josavant said: (#51)
“Karl R wrote earlier that we can figure out whether a guy is into us by reversing roles and seeing how we would treat a guy if we are into them or not. Though I am not alpha woman, if I liked a guy, I would make an effort to see him more than once a week- I would want to see him at least twice a week if not more.”
You overlooked one possibility. A shy man might want to see a woman more often, but still be terrified of the possible rejection if he tries to move things forward.
In most of my relationships, I started off seeing the woman once a week. In many, I escalated to seeing her more frequently. The desire to escalate to seeing her more frequently occurred before I tried to make it happen … sometimes weeks before.
Rose said: (#48)
“Paying equal on dates makes it feels like friends rather than a romantic date” […]
“Not a problem just turns me off romantically and I need to be turned on for romance.”
So you’re in favor of maintaining social inequalities which favor you.
Men don’t pay for dates because it’s fair. We don’t pay because it’s romantic. We don’t pay because it’s chivalrous. We don’t pay because it’s right. We don’t pay because we’re generous.
We pay for dates because it’s an effective dating strategy. We are interested enough in succeeded that we’ll overlook that it’s inherently unequal.
Kiki asked: (#50)
“what do you think about this alpha/beta classification”
It can be a useful analogy, but it’s not completely accurate.
Kiki said: (#50)
“where would you fall on that scale?”
When it comes to dating, I definitely started out as a “beta” … shy, under-confident, afraid of rejection. Over time I learned enough alpha behaviors (or learned how to fake them convincingly) to come across more like an “alpha”.
marymary, (#56)
PUA tactics work better than a shy guy’s natural inclinations. If you get past the jargon, some of their tactics are just common sense.
Frimmel says
#57/#58:
Are you really a Type A if you want to cede control to others at any point for any reason?
Is your Type A’ness ingrained or something you think you’re supposed to do?
When you think you are ceding control are you really out of control or just exercising control over something else being in control a different way? “Beat Me” is an order for instance.
Zara says
Beta males annoying 🙁 do not like passive men. I’d rather be a lesbain and have more shoes
Goldie says
Frimmel 61
I was wondering the same thing. But on second thought, I do notice that many people like to be type A at work and type B at home, or vice versa.
Personally, in theory, I like working together as a team, both at work and in my personal life. But in reality, in my personal life, I’ve had to be the one in charge and drive things. Maybe one day I will find the egalitarian partner I’m looking for.
Scott says
As for kiki @51 saying “silence equals yes”, I see this as a risky message to send to guys. If a guy foolishly believes this is what most women intend, we will get even more cases of “date rape”. Especially of women too drunk or stoned to overtly object when he “makes his move”. The concept that “silence equals yes” is in essence supporting the position of men who say “she got drunk and came up to my room, and she never said the word no, so how could I possibly have interpreted that as anything other than consent to sex?”
Shaukat says
@ Goldie #54
The last part of that description concerning hypnosis is a reference to Ross Jeffries I think, who is pretty much a fraud in my opinion. That said, I don’t agree with what seems to be your premise, that seduction is unethical or that seducing someone amounts to using them. There is nothing wrong with guys learning certain skills to better interact with people and making themselves more attractive by enhancing their confidence and appeal.
Suppose a guy goes to a bar, approaches a woman, uses some banter, humor, and charm and the two of them end up sleeping together that night or shortly thereafter. Has he used her? I don’t think so, because very few women still believe that sex is the equivalent of a commitment. In my opinion, it would not amount to manipulation even if he knew for a fact that there was no potential for a relationship with her.
In fact, the only way I would say that a man is using a woman for sex is if it’s understood, because of a conversation, that she only sleeps with people who are looking to make some kind of a commitment, and the man, knowing he has no intention of committing, pretends to be on the same page as her simply to get sex. I think this kind of situation is pretty rare, and it would probably be rarer if fewer women thought like Rose, who apparently believes that a man should continue footing the bill well after the fourth or fifth date because it makes her feel “feminine.” If fewer women thought this way then fewer men would continue dating women they had no real long-term interest in solely to get some kind of ROI.
Rose says
Scilence does not mean yes, some people when feeling threatened will freeze and say nothing.
Also drunk and stoned people can not give consent so this is rape.
Sparkling Emerald says
I’m not quite sure what Kiki means by silence = yes. If there has been some ongoing dates I think silence = passive agressive way of blowing me off. So I’ll just be off and onto the next one. If I like a guy, he should be able to tell by the way I kiss, by my enthusiastic “yes” when he makes plans with me, or if I really can’t go when he asks, my sincere, “I would really like to do x, y, or z with you, but that date/time doesn’t work, but this or that date does” and my end of the date, “Thanks, that was really fun ! ” I promptly return missed phone calls, and if his name pops up on my caller ID, I answer if I can, and greet him enthusiastically by name. If he doesn’t get that I like him with those signals, then there’s not much more for me to do. I want a guy with SOME testosterone. I don’t want a neanderthal, but if a guy thinks I am laughing at his jokes and walking arm in arm with him & making out with him for some reason other than me liking him, well, it’s probably better that he let’s it fade. Either he’s really not that into me, or he hasn’t a clue how to read people.
If I don’t like a guy, I take his “silence” with a sigh of relief, and assume he’s also not interested. I feel no need to tell him on NOT interested, if hasn’t told me that he IS interested. (and, no “I’ll call you” is not expressing interest, I think by now we all know that is a blow off) If he indicates interest, which I don’t feel in return, I give him a polite “Thanks for coming out to meet me, but I don’t think we are a match”.
I have had a few guys blow hot and cold this time around and in the past. They also get the next. I don’t want to waste my time trying to unscramble mixed signals.
JoJOe says
I don’t like men to pay for US to have a date. Especially a first date.
I much rather see how interested he is. So… I suggest an outing, his choice or mine. Something that has a ticket to it.
Like Zip Lining, so fun and you both get to show off your abilities.
“Do like zip lining, you can get “your” ticket in “advance” online. If you have anything else in mind, let me know”
Now I sit back and wait. Will he get tickets in “advance” for himself alone even. This will let me know if he’s serious about setting up a date with at least a weeks notice, reliability level test. It also lets me know if he’s into physical activities, which tells me alot about how he’s going to be in the bedroom. It also gives him the op to change the event, allowing both beta’s and alpha’s to feel comfortable.
If he backs out and asks for a drink or a coffee. Nope, lazy, looking for the quick route. Waste of my time. If he can’t put up with a human for a couple of hours doing some activity, he’s not of value. Glad to find out before I spent MY time preparing for HIM.
The setting up of a date has to let one know if he’s of value. They can ogle all they want, peacock all they want, flirt all they want. But it’s the lady who will make the final decision. As in the animal kingdom so in queendom. (have to laugh, “queendom” is not a recognized word.
A dinner date is fine, talking, candle light, but the waitress test and his table manners should be left for when you both have decided to date again. It takes the heat and price off him. She’s only getting what he thinks she wants so he can score if he’s into her. Which really when you think about it is all that can come of a dinner date. Men are not generally wanting to sit around and small talk all night unless they see a babe across the table they think may sleep with them. I know that sounds terrible. But from what I’ve experienced, it’s pretty much the end or not end result.
I’ve had more success in RS’s when there is fun to be had, a challenge to meet, a chance to demonstrate yourself through skill or your ability to laugh through lack of skill.
I had a date take me mini putting where it’s lit only through black light. We had a riot dated several times after, but just buds as it turned out. No worries, no pressure and we’re able to talk nicely about one another to others because of positive experiences.
I’ve had screaming matches in restaurants. Stuck seated in chairs with nothing to do but eat and talk. OHhhh sooo borring and such a place for contention and stress. And this ACROSS the table stuff. If I second date a man, i sit beside him for dinner. ALWAYS. Why, because we’re out AGAIN and I like him.
All in all, it’s even steven with fun and activity. I’ve rebuild a motor with a date over a case of beer. Oh, that one got all greasy… fun fun..
Jenn says
[email protected]: I think that most guys now know that a drunk or stoned person cannot consent to sex. You’d have to have been living under a rock these last couple of years not to have gotten that message. KiKi isn’t talking about sex. She’s talking about having strong romantic feelings for a guy and being too shy or afraid to tell him about them. Guys do the same thing when they are really interested in someone.
Clare says
Goldie 55
I agree with you.
Women are feeling their way just as much as men. We also learn by trial and error, we also sometimes don’t know where we stand or where we’ve made a mistake/overstepped a line until men tell us. we fall victim to the confusion and heartbreak and fear of rejection every bit as much as men.
No one is immune from the uncertainties. You can learn more as you go along, you can become a better partner and more effective communicator, you can understand the differences between the sexes better… but there still is such variation among people, and each coupling comes with it’s own energy and dynamics.
I am firmly of the belief that it is less about fault-finding or putting responsibility on the other, and more about understanding and acceptance of what works. And this is a life-long journey. Eventually, God-willing, you end up in a relationship where you are comfortable with each other’s ways and you have an effective marriage/relationship, but I believe this takes time.
Kiki says
@Karl R60,
David T 59
Scott 64.
Guys, really, what I meant, and clearly asked, is “do you need signs to move the relationship to the next level”. The RELATIONSHIP, assuming there is already A RELATIONSHIP. Like, move from seeing each other once a week, to twice a week, then to seeing each other every day, then to moving in together, allowing her to drive your car of whatever level of comfort you are capable to have with her at the very maximum :-).
Silence clearly does not equal yes if you have just met a girl at a bar and she is too drunk to speak, and I do not even want to touch on the subject of date rape. please.
Just to recap, based on what you are saying, if a woman is dating a beta male, she should be giving plenty of signs to help him overcome his fear of rejection. If he likes her, that will give him the confidence to not worry about sabotaging the relationship. If he doesn’t like her (enough to progress further to whatever the next logical step would be) what will he do?
Goldie says
Shaukat #65
Wow. So for a man to approach a woman in public that he’s never seen before, and to talk that woman into an ONS, is now called “better interacting with people”? Better than WHAT? Clearly I’m too old for this stuff, lol
MilkyMae says
The problem with beta men is that they want relationships to be mutual from the start. That’s a high hurdle for women to jump over.
Joe says
@ m #23:
b) So how about one bottle of wine? :-p (Never mind that the wage gap is largely mythical.)
Omega says
Instead of cooking for him, tell him to come over to cook with you. If you are an alpha you can handle that, and you’re dating for a long time.
It will give you tons of feedback on your dynamics with him.
If you are ‘alpha+’ tell him to go get the groceries together.
Karl R says
Kiki said: (#71)
“Just to recap, based on what you are saying, if a woman is dating a beta male, she should be giving plenty of signs to help him overcome his fear of rejection.”
Essentially, yes. This is true for a number of shy, under-confident, less assertive men. And to be perfectly clear, my analogy is valid during the early stages of the relationship. (I’m fairly certain that your fear, loss of sleep, etc., continues well beyond the first date. The same is true for men.)
This thread exists because Michelle and her boyfriend are seeing each other about once per week, but she’s not sure whether he wants a more serious relationship. It’s equally possible for him to have the same uncertainty. Think about what signs would convince you that the man was interested in getting more serious. Those are approximately the same signs that would convince the man. (People are different, so there will be some variation in this.)
As an alternative to sending signs, a woman can initiate a conversation to make herself perfectly clear. For example, “I’d like to see you more often than once a week.”
Kiki said: (#71)
“If he doesn’t like her (enough to progress further to whatever the next logical step would be) what will he do?”
There are two likely scenarios. Either he’ll ignore the signs of encouragement and continue the casual relationship (because it’s what he wants), or he’ll break up because he’s feeling pressure to have a more serious relationship than what he wants.
Direct conversation runs a larger risk of coming across as overeager/pushy, but it has an advantage of being more difficult to ignore.
There’s also going to be some difference depending on whether they’re having sex. (Michelle didn’t mention that detail.) A guy is more likely to continue pursuing sex indefinitely without making any effort to go any further.
Even in this case, a verbal suggestion will add a lot of clarity. If the man wants a more serious relationship, he will jump on that suggestion with enthusiasm. If not, his response will be lukewarm at best.
MilkyMae said: (#73)
“The problem with beta men is that they want relationships to be mutual from the start. That’s a high hurdle for women to jump over.”
I’m not sure that I understand what you mean. Could you explain that better?
Goldie asked: (#72)
“So for a man to approach a woman in public that he’s never seen before, and to talk that woman into an ONS, is now called ‘better interacting with people’? Better than WHAT?”
I know a 62 year old man (never married, no serious relationships) who will spend weeks/months slowly trying to befriend a woman so she’ll like him well enough that she’ll say “Yes” when he tries to date her.
When I started to date my wife, he’d been trying to date her for months. I blew past him like he was standing still … because he was standing still.
Being able to initiate a one-night-stand would represent a major step forward for this man.
Goldie and Clare, (#55 & #70)
You’ve pretty much nailed this.
While this thread revolves around what the woman can/should do (since Michelle is a woman), there is no shortage of advice for shy, less assertive men on this topic.
My advice for shy, under-confident, less assertive men:
It is possible to rush too quickly into a relationship and blow your chance. However, if you’re a shy guy, it is more likely that you’ll ruin your chances by acting to slowly (or not at all).
With experience, you develop an understanding of the normal pace of relationships. (More accurately, it’s a range of normal paces.) As long as you’re somewhere near the middle of this range, you’re not going to be sabotaging your chances by moving ahead.
In most dating situations, you either have an excellent chance of succeeding, or no chance of succeeding. If you have no chance, then it doesn’t matter what you do. You could do everything perfectly, and the woman will still tell you that she’s not interested in having that kind of relationship with you (or breaking things off in another way). This happens to the men who are successful at dating too. They just know how to roll with it.
If you have an excellent chance of succeeding, you can screw up multiple times (as long as your screw-ups aren’t too outrageous) and still succeed.
Instead of getting locked into analysis paralysis by trying to find the right time to make your next move, just find a time to make your next move. Unless you’re wildly outside the pace I mentioned before, it’s sufficient. You will either succeed (because you had an excellent chance of getting further) or you will fail (because you had no chance of getting further).
Most of the time, you have no chance. That’s normal. Don’t let it discourage you.
Frimmel says
Goldie in #72: re better than what?
Better than being home alone with internet porn.
I’m not shy. I’m not a particular extrovert but I’m no sit in a corner and not talk to people guy. I don’t have a problem approaching women. However speaking to women and speaking to women in ways that make them want to have sex with you are rectangles and squares. No matter whether you’re looking for Miss. Right or Miss Right Now.
George Clooney probably has good “game.” However his doesn’t need to be that good since well he’s George Clooney. His game is already starting at a higher level because of his status and looks and wealth. Joe Average like me needs a lot more “game” because well I’m not George Clooney. I don’t have a lot of status and looks and wealth. Most guys are not George Clooney. My charm often comes across as “player” because I don’t fit the checklist of everything a girl is looking for in a guy. I hear way too often, “I like you more than I want to.”
Oh and by the by I’m in agreement with Shaukat in #65. The last paragraph is on the money.
Frimmel says
Karl R in #76 asks MilkyMae said: (#73)
“The problem with beta men is that they want relationships to be mutual from the start. That’s a high hurdle for women to jump over.”
I’m not sure that I understand what you mean. Could you explain that better?
My guess is she means he has to first prove he’s into her before she’ll step up and show she’s into him. See “traditional gender roles” for more information. 🙂
Goldie says
Frimmel 77
“Better than being home alone with internet porn.”
Like I said, I must be getting old, because this time around I’m starting to seriously question it that a random warm body in my bed is any better than internet porn on my screen. When I was just out of a bad 18-year marriage, yea casual sex sounded new and exciting. Three years and two relationships later, the novelty has worn off. I’m no longer able to understand why I would want to use a human being as a slightly better substitute for my hand, when I have two perfectly functioning hands. YMMV.
Karl R, my guess is you passed that 62yo guy like he was standing, because your then-gf, now wife, was not interested. Believe me, guys, when you’re interested in us, we know. You don’t need to spell it out. Granted, we cannot come right out and say, Come on Jim Bob, we both know you’re interested in me, so why don’t you stop beating around the bush (literally and metaphorically) and ask me out already? – but we do know it when Jim Bob wants to ask us out.
“My advice for shy, under-confident, less assertive men: …”
This is awesome advice!
sarahrahrah! says
I’ve been dating a shy guy for the past couple of months and was getting to know him before that.
What Evan said about shy guys not wanting to be rejected or perceived as “pushy” totally rings true to me. This guy and I had been communicating fairly regularly after having done an activity together, but he didn’t ask me out. I told him that I really enjoyed getting to know him better during that activity and that I hoped that we continued to communicate. That was all it took for him to ask me out and start dating. Even after that, it took quite a while for him to kiss me. Again, I followed Evan’s advice and looked at the rest of his behaviors and got the sense that he definitely liked me. Instead of writing him off, I was patient and waited for him to make the first move. I’m glad that I did because now I feel that he likes me (that it wasn’t just me making the first move and him responding) and he acts with masculine confidence with me. It is great!
The only thing that might be different between my experience and the online poster’s is that once I gave him some definite positive feedback, he responded to me and did so consistently. I did use mirroring once we started seeing each other, but he definitely took charge. If he hadn’t, I’m not sure if it would have worked.
BeKa says
SARA, please tell me how long after you start dating him, he kissed you? Lol
I’m driving myself nuts with what I think is a perfect beta but I am not sure if he is just asking me out because he doesn’t have anything better to do, or if he likes me or not. I’m 43 and this is the first time a man hasn’t even try to touch a finger on my hand. He hasn’t compliments me either. Only keeps contact daily even to send an out of the blue message, or to ask me out. Yesterday was our 5th meeting. I can’t say date because I don’t know how to call it yet.
Frimmel says
Okay, Goldie here’s a gotcha question for you. You know we want to ask you out but you can’t say “Ask me out.” So if there are two such guys that you know want to ask you out at more or less the same time are you going to go out with the one who does or does not ask you out?
Karl R says
Goldie said: (#79)
“my guess is you passed that 62yo guy like he was standing, because your then-gf, now wife, was not interested.”
That was part of it. However, if he’d actually tried to move things forward at a normal pace, he would have discovered that she wasn’t interested at least four months earlier.
In addition, he made one of those outrageous screw-ups very early on. He had a chance (not necessarily an excellent chance, but a chance) before he screwed up. My wife is attracted by intelligence and humor, and the man does well in both areas.
Goldie said: (#79)
“Granted, we cannot come right out and say, Come on Jim Bob, we both know you’re interested in me, so why don’t you stop beating around the bush (literally and metaphorically) and ask me out already? — but we do know it when Jim Bob wants to ask us out.”
And if Jim Bob takes two months working up his nerve, then asks you to join him on an outing that’s not quite a date, then takes another month before finding the “right” moment to ask you on another not-quite-a-date …
… are you gaining or losing interest in Jim Bob over the course of these months?
If a person is capable of going from zero to ONS in one night, it means that he has the ability to go from zero to phone number in one night, use the phone number within 24 hours, get a first date within a week….
For the 62yo man (and many more like him), that would imply a great improvement.
Goldie says
Frimmel #81.
It really depends on how I feel about these two people. I could go out with any one of them, both, or neither. Or a third, better, option may come along and I’ll go with that. One thing for sure – if, while a friend of mine is interested and is working up the courage to ask me out, a random person walks up to me in a bar and says “Nice shoes…” – I’m not going to choose this random dude over my friend just because he came on to me.
I mean, I agree with both you and Karl – without a doubt, if a man is interested in a woman he knows, it’s better for him to say something than sit around and wait. He risks losing his chances if he sits around and waits. But this conversation started with pickup artists, i.e. people who, have the necessary tricks up their sleeve to go, like Karl said, from zero to phone number in one night with someone they don’t even know.
I just fail to see how this approach can produce long-term results. And short-term results, IMO, are overrated.
Tim says
Jesus Goldie, you need to get out in the world and stop moping around!
You keep saying you’re too old, maybe you are, I don’t know how old you are, but you’re NEVER too old to find love. How old are you? 40? 50? 80?
There are guys out there who are 50 and dating young beautiful gorgeous 25 year old women.
Don’t give up. Put yourself out there. Meet some women. I wish I could, but the chronic pain in my feet I’ve had for 20 years sometimes even keeps me from even getting dressed in the morning, but that still doesn’t stop me from trying to make my day a better one. It also doesn’t keep me from having fantastic sex with really attractive and women who know how to have the right kind of fun 🙂
You NEVER chase after a woman, because that just exhibits feminine desperate clingy needy beta male behavior. You NEVER tell a girl how you feel.
The problem with your view Goldie is that you talk like you’re never going to meet another woman ever again. That’s simply not true if you just work on yourself and get out there.
As for how these pick up artists go from zero to phone number in one night, that’s nothing!
Believe it or not, there are guys out there who love women and know women so well that they get laid on the first night, present company included.
As for the long term part, I’m going to recommend you to my life coach, because you sound like you REALLY need LOTS of help.
Doing it with your hand is NOTHING like having sex with a real woman. You should know, you even said it yourself, that you were married for a long time.
God bless Goldie 🙂
starthrower68 says
Is it just me or is anyone else seeing a pattern?
Julia says
Shaukut #65
Suppose a guy goes to a bar, approaches a woman, uses some banter, humor, and charm and the two of them end up sleeping together that night or shortly thereafter. Has he used her? I don’t think so, because very few women still believe that sex is the equivalent of a commitment. In my opinion, it would not amount to manipulation even if he knew for a fact that there was no potential for a relationship with her.
I am going on a limb to say that the woman he charms was already receptive to sex and he was just the lucky guy. When women have ONS they know what they are doing, they are having sex. A woman is not being used if she’s chosen to partake in an act. No one is duped or manipulated as long as there is mutual consent.
Frimmel says
Goldie, how it could produce long term results would be dependent on the particular pick-up artist in question. While there are a bunch of nihilists in the PUA community they are most certainly not entirely wrong. To a degree they’re teaching guys how to read her mind and do the right thing. And that is something you need to know to get a ONS or to keep a relationship healthy for the longer haul isn’t it?
The PUAs are just reminding everyone that biology hasn’t quite caught up to the state of the culture.
Karl R says
Goldie said: (#83)
“But this conversation started with pickup artists, i.e. people who, have the necessary tricks up their sleeve to go, like Karl said, from zero to phone number in one night with someone they don’t even know.”
“I just fail to see how this approach can produce long-term results. And short-term results, IMO, are overrated.”
I’ve gone from zero to phone number in one night. Another time I got a phone number over breakfast. (I sat next to an attractive woman at a diner.)
I agree that the odds of getting long-term results this way are rather slim. The odds of any initial attempt resulting in a long-term relationship is rather low. If you’re going from zero to phone number, it’s less likely that you have anything in common, so the odds of long-term success drop.
But I think I’m looking more at the big picture. 25 years ago I lacked the confidence to ask a woman out. 15 years ago it was still extremely difficult. Eight years ago I still wasn’t confident enough to try to get the phone number from a stranger.
Six years ago I got a phone number from a woman the second time we ever met. (I was in a relationship the first time I met her, so I didn’t ask for her phone number then.) Even though it didn’t work out due to circumstances, we were well suited to each other. Based on that, I’m going to say that getting phone numbers from strangers can lead to a successful long-term relationship.
More importantly, it takes confidence to make the attempt. That confidence is going to greatly increase a man’s success in all dating situations.
Goldie,
Part of your opinion seems to revolve around your lack of information (one wikipedia article, which seemed really low on detail). You might want to take a look at Evan’s review of PUAs:
https://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/what-i-learned-from-pick-up-artists-who-wrote-the-game/
Neither Evan nor I are fans of the PUA technique, but there is some value to it. There are men in their 20s, 30s (even 60s) who have as little confidence and clue as I had as a teenager. They could benefit from the advice, even if it has some flaws.
J says
Goldie I think you meant going from stranger to ONS? Cause going from stranger to phone number in one night is quite common and par for the course ( it’s what folks that aren’t online do :-))
SunBurst says
@JoJOe #32
THANK for “Good House Keeping” post. This is the VERY thing that I am dealing with. I started to get sprung and spin out of control. I found Evan’s web page and it saved me, but this post. My gut knew what you were saying was true. I am no longer waiting for him and when he does come around (and he will), my full life will be in full swing. It’s interesting, this very guy is what I have needed to let my guard drop. I am now safe within myself, so I can be vulnerable. It is a huge power posituon for me and one that protects me. I am no longer worried about being abandoned And I trust, so his game or play or whatever he is doing is all on him.
Reading you post was the point where I exhaled….thanks
TheForgottenOne says
I’m just learning about this whole ‘alpha’ and ‘beta’ male personality thing, but based on what I’ve read it looks like I’m a beta.
“Hi, my name is Joe, and I’m a beta male.” “Hello Joe, welcome to beta males anonymous”.
My ex ussed to complain that I would never take the iniative when it came to planning the weekend’s activites or what our next date activity would be. In truth I did take the intiative quite a bit, but honestly it’s mentally exhausting to try and come up with something new and interesting to do again and again. It’s not that I don’t mind taking the iniative — even most of the time — but I really don’t want to do it ALL THE D*MN TIME! It would’ve been nice if my ex would have taken the iniative every once in a while and tried to come up with a new or interesting date idea.
Secondly one of the reasons why I like to date is because I like to explore new interests and experience different activities. If I am the one that is always making the plans then all I’m doing is things that I know and enjoy, which is fine, but half the point of dating is learning about what the other person likes and the other person enjoys doing. Maybe I want to learn about what they enjoy doing for fun as well. That’s why I would be thrilled if after a few dates a woman I really like would say “Hey I really like doing ‘X’, would you like to do it too?” Yeah, I think I would and would probably really enjoy myself while learing ane experiencing something new and different. That to me is what dating is all about. Learning about other peoples interests and enjoying them together.
Paula says
I have had this experience before. I dated a guy who was all about talking consistently and spending time on the phone and texting, etc. However, we saw each other about every three weeks if that – It was very odd to me. I didn’t stop the rest of my life. After a few months I did take the initiative and questioned what it was about and didn’t get much of a response – He didn’t seem to have a direct answer. So, I ended it. He seemed more offended and hurt by rejection rather than pushing back and fighting for me and clarifying his intentions. Oh well…
While each person is different, my sense is that some guys lack the confidence in themselves to be able to participate in a full blown relationship. They enjoy having “someone” with whom to check in and enjoy a bit of communication and affection, but won’t take it to another level. As an alpha female (who would like to be less alpha), I think that some guys feel that we are a bit out of their league in some ways, but get a lot of energy from us. I think some know that long-term that some of their ways won’t fly with us.
It does take skill to establish and maintain meaningful connection. You never know what someone’s track record might be and what that may mean to current situation. I agree with Evan about women hanging back a bit and letting things play out. That he woman can say “yes” if she chooses to what gets presented but not push. People are always telling us about themselves through their actions.
Stacy says
“I’ve had to learn the hard way, that my “go-getter” attitude does not translate well in the dating world. Not doing anything in the beginning stages of dating tends to drive me crazy.”
I’m sorry but I’m getting that expectations are already high because he fails to initiate every single date. I can see if it were a committed relationship and it feels as if he’s drifting away, but too much early on for some men is an over kill…Alpha/Beta/Omega, doesn’t matter, you will push him away. Let him set his own pace and healthy boundaries. Some women need healthy boundaries too, not because we get sick of men, but because we also have a life outside of the dating world and need girl time. It’s only been a month and a half. Give it a little bit of time before you expect to see him every other day. I know it’s hard when you really like someone. He’s making an effort so at least give him the benefit of the doubt, all is not lost.
Jeff says
Just to make it clear, nearly ALL pack/troop mammals follow the alpha, beta, omega rule (note there is no “other” type as many men try to ID themselves as like gamma or zeta thats just people trying to be “special”). In the human world only 20% of the population is “alpha” the rest are beta/omegas. Then you must apply the “Pareto principle“, (google it). In the past the Beta was the majority of marrying men (followed rules, took care of details, built the cities/bridges) as women were more reliant on their earning power and protection. The “modern” world after the rise after the rise of the “modern woman” caused men that appealed to female hypergamy (normally the “alphas”) to become the “wanted mate” by women. This combined with the loss of male identity, due to boys from the 70’s onward, being forced to defer to women authority figures has lead to “super passive”, aka passive beta/omega, males being te majority in north america. Frankly its a case of sleep in the bed you made. Ok now please direct your hate filled replies towards me as i’m sure i ruffled a few feathers. Truly, Jeff
Evan says
Beta female he was an alpha, he had options you didnt.
Princess says
This is awesome. I’m used to dating alpha males and we often times butt heads and the relationship gets too intense. So after my last relationship ended I told myself enough of trying to take charge. I’m going to sit back and be the feminine girl that I am. So after dating a series of frogs I came across the sweetest guy ever. It took us 4 weeks to kiss and that’s because I initiated it. It was magical. He is not my “type” but at my age I’ve realized that if I have a “type” I maybe single forever. This guy is so “perfect” for me but he hardly initiates anything. The first two dates he did. he is very respectful but I really get frustrated sometimes. He can’t cook and he cooked me dinner after I offered to cook him dinner. He also communicates mostly via text messages. Because I am so used to guys being aggressive I find myself asking if this man is really into me or not. This article really helps.
Joe says
Beta males are a disease that need to be extinguished. Hitler was onto something by creating the ultimate race.
starthrower68 says
You are kidding, right?
Claudia says
I read this but never comment but I had to jump in on this one. I’ve dated those alphas and being an alpha myself it never worked. Evan always says men don’t want a clone. Well, I don’t either! recently started dating a wonderful and sweet ‘beta’ guy. He’s a great complement for my dominant personality and appreciates my strength. But he’s also an outgoing, charismatic, confident guy and when the moment calls for it has no problem engaging his alpha side. He’s a perfect mix of both and if you can find that guy, nab him!
Fay says
I was married to a Beta energy man for 24 years and eventually left him as I was TIRED from driving the marriage. I know I might sound like a martyr when I say this, but seriously if I didn’t make the decisions along the way, we would be still living with his parents. I yearned to have him recognise my being so tired from juggling FT work, PT study, 3 kids and home….but his life revolved around what he wanted to do and if seemed reluctant to ever put himself out for his family including me. I felt like I was a chore to him. I married young and was easily won over by his looks…and not his charm and I had no clue about relationships. I felt trapped and honoured my commitment to him as being wife and mother to our children. Even for valentines day or our 10 year anniversary, he didn’t organise anything as he didn’t want to spend the money. We weren’t broke so who knows why he did what he did. He had it all but ignored my cries for him to help me and to share the load in life.
Denis says
There is a book that suggest that alpha woman should go for beta man. Is that really effective? I don’t know but just to let you know. be careful about what advice you can get online. It can contradict one to an other. Just be yourself and go for what you really like not for what other would like you to like.
Lin says
Im dating a man like this, don’t know if he is lazy or just a beta. He always says he wants to see me, if I agree, he tells me so what are the plans… Im the one who has to plan the date. Also, a few times not in advance,today he did it again. Im tired of it, told him sorry don’t feel like it, you should have planned something in advance, don’t think he liked my message…
Kim says
Run…run as fast as you can. Just kidding (sort of). I ended up with a Beta husband and it is often not a good thing. I find it a challenge for me personally because I really needed an alpha male. I didn’t know these intricacies of dating many, many years ago. I find myself being very angry at my husband for not taking more of a lead in our house. I end up taking the lead nine times out of ten and at times it’s exhausting. It may sound archaic to some, but I really do prefer a strong man to take care of me. Beta’s are more feminine too. Not something that appeals to me personally but it has taught me to get things done and I’m a stronger woman for it. I just wish I didn’t always have to be.
Frank says
This is ridiculous. Only the modern women choose a beta male instead of an alpha male, because beta males are what alpha males are not: HUMANS with FEELINGS and not afraid of SHOWING them. The beta male is just someone who doesn’t try to live up to stereotypical standards of what a man is or isn’t. It’s ridiculous this jargon about “How to be a man and man up”. It’s ridiculous and it’s killing men in a rapid speed. Do you understand why men kill themselves 3 times more than women? Because both women and men don’t let men be who they want to be, instead both women and men puts up this huge wall about “How to be a man and to man up”. Please, learn some sense! And let men be beta males and cry and be feminine as much as they want to. And DO date these men! Because they are the only ones that are humane! And the ones that will truly take care of you and never ever be assholes to you.
ThisGuy says
This whole Alpha/Beta thing is kind of funny and, I think, a bit simplistic and incorrect for the most part.
It sounds more like the guy is interested but doesn’t want to put in a huge amount of effort for whatever reason. And that sounds a bit more Alpha, right? (If I have to use those terms) Isn’t not giving a fuck more of an Alpha thing?
Or maybe he’s just busy, lazy about you, not that interested, his grandma died, he’s talking to multiple women, he doesn’t want to spend the money, he’d rather get stoned, he’d rather play squash? The truth is, you don’t know him well enough to know why.
Anyway, though. If you want the guy to make plans, etc. and he doesn’t, then don’t go out with him. I would just say it’s not a good match rather than using these very odd terms of Alpha & Beta.
The way this post, the comments and, I assume, this website paint the Alpha male, is as an outgoing guy, who has his life together, has a career, takes the initiative to plan things, and makes moves sexually. That’s not an Alpha/Beta thing, it’s just dating 101. It’s a Man/Woman thing.
What the author, Evan, is doing here is trying to boost the woman’s self-esteem and help women convince themselves they are attracted to men who act the way they’d like a man to act, a way that makes them feel good. And that’s great! By thinking the guy who doesn’t make plans is a “beta”, it helps you view him as weak and less attractive. And that makes it easier for you to move on. In that case, you left because he wasn’t good enough, not because you weren’t good enough for him. And that’s also good. The less insecurity there is out there, the better for everyone.
But, don’t get too wrapped up in the Alpha/Beta thing. Honestly, it’s nonsense. People are just people. Rise above the bullshit and you’ll be ok. Just think about what you want, what you want to give and take it on a case by case basis.
Mermaid says
To the OP.. He’s just not that interested. He probably has several women on the go and picks the best offer on the table Meanwhile keeping you on the hook. If he was really into you, he would be proposing living together or marriage by now not wanting to let you slip away. i think you are wasting your precious time with this man if you plan on having children.
rickyzg says
Oh people are you all deluded, there isn’t such thing as beta, alpha, gama, omega, zeta. There is only : Baby, Boy, Man. If he doesn’t become man is some respective older years then he is still boy. If someone likes boy be with a boy, if not find a man.
Amanda says
This is a really helpful article, as it sounds exactly like the new guy in my life. While I’m not interested in someone who’s super aggressive, I have puzzled by his affectionate but somewhat cautious behavior. I’ll just go and see how it feels.
Dan says
I’m a beta male, and I can give you some advice.
First, don’t change yourself, and don’t figure on him changing:
He is who he is, don’t figure on making him become more outgoing or more assertive. And maybe he’s looking for an alpha female. Be yourself, if you’re outgoing then keep being outgoing. That might be what he finds appealing in you. If he has a habit that you don’t like and you force him to change it, it will only be temporary. The real him will come out again months or years later, and he’ll hold it against you that you tried to change him. If it’s that big of a deal, maybe he’s not the right one for you.
Don’t assume, just ask:
If you have any questions, just ask him. Don’t sit there and worry and think to yourself “What if he doesn’t really like me?” “Should I be passive or assertive?” Just bring it up and ask him.
Make the first move:
If you want to go out more often, ask him out. I’ve been in many relationships where we’ll go out once or twice, but it seems like she isn’t that interested so it just stops and that’s it. Beta males don’t put in the effort if it seems like it’s not going to go anywhere. Show interest in him, and he’ll probably show it back. (I know, females expect to be pursued, but it doesn’t work that way with a beta male.)
Adam says
I have no idea on Earth, how I ended up here, but I cannot deny how fascinated I am with all the relationship dynamics being expressed here. I feel compelled to share an outsiders observation with all. The single most fundamental flaw that I have tracked down in every single one of the debates is that everyone makes assumptions and everyone draws opinionated conclusions. How about this for old fashioned sake; honesty across the board. The biggest disconnect in these relationships are communication flaws. If you are unsure, do not attempt to apply an inevitably flawed algorithm to human nature or intent; just ask. It takes courage to inquire in zones of discomfort, but I garuntee, the honesty works wonders and builds character. Everyone wins, everyone gets clarity, and people will acquire valuable insight into human nature that will enrichen our understanding of one another.
Karmic Equation says
You’re a good man, Adam. Just packaged a little unconventionally.
Be yourself. The right woman will see right through to the heart of you and love you for who you are, not who you pretend (or wish) you could be.
Ultimately, PUA training is to help men develop confidence to interact with women. While it seems that you lacked confidence in interacting with women, you should NEVER have had any lack of confidence in yourself as a human being. You are a good guy.
Trust that being yourself, your real self, will reach the right woman for you. Women have to kiss a lot of frogs to find her prince. Men don’t mind kissing frogs as long as they get the kissing. And they’re often not looking for their princesses. So the correlating lesson for men is that he might have to be lonely for a while before he finds the woman that will brighten his life.
And I’ll say it again, PUA tactics work best on the wrong kind of women for LTRs. You’ll end up with an insecure, albeit hot woman, who will make your life out of bed miserable.
If you truly want to find love. Be comfortable snuggling up to porn for a while until you meet her.
Adam says
Wow Karmic Equation,
I was not expecting that sort of response, but I welcome the observation. I am not exactly sure what I said that projected my insecurities, but to clarify, my post was relevant to my observation of everyone else’s comments. I agree that I am cut from a different fabric and within that realization, I happen to be very confident.
In response to the porn comment, I do not recommend that sort of mental destruction to any human. The studies of the effects of porn from a psychological standpoint are overwhelmingly conclusive that our brain chemistry is directly impacted from exposure, along with behavioral, emotions, and psychological habits changing into a never ending battle for stimulation. These alterations drastically effect our perspective of reality and overall, porn is one of the most destructive enemies to mankind.
I truly feel you are here to offer support and help others as I am here to offer valuable information as well. Please to not take my response negatively as I mean well. I can not do good in this world if I keep the valuable information to myself, regardless of how others receive the truth, let it be told.
Karmic Equation says
I’m sure you’ve BECOME confident with PUA tactics, just as I’m certain that you were NOT confident before you learned them.
Why? Because confident men attract women. Confidence attracts women like beauty attracts men.
So now that you ARE confident, drop the lies. No more telling girls you have a gf when you don’t have one. The girls who lose interest are the wrong girls to have relationships with anyway. “Who cheats with you will cheat on you.”
Pay attention to the girls who warm up. Those are the quality women you should truly consider for gfs.
But this assumes you really want a gf, and not just notches on your bedpost.
Josie says
I do not like dating alpha men. A mix is great. I’m also a mix but more beta than alpha. I like 50/50 power in a relationship. I bought Why He Disappeared but I don’t want an alpha so I suppose I should dismiss the advice? Please, Evan, write something for women interested in other than alpha males!
Adrian says
Josie, you just pointed out the core reason behind everyone who argues with Evan’s advice, both men and women.
His (as well as mostly all the dating coaches and even the PUA’s) advice is tailored toward women seeking and men who are Alpha. And though I don’t know if the “majority” of women want a Alpha or not…
I do know that the majority of men are NOT Alpha’s, and this is why so many of the male readers get upset at the advice that Evan and the many others like him are giving to women.
His advice implies that if men don’t act a certain way toward women or do certain things for women, that we aren’t REAL or Strong men.
But, being a constant reader of Evan’s site, I know that he isn’t doing it maliciously, which is why, like you Josie, I would love for him to write a dating book for us Beta men.
Jason says
Why are you dating a beta? Beta’s like us don’t deserve happiness we should be allowed to die off.
Faith says
Thanks a lot Evan for this article. I have read a handful of articles on dating and relationships but never have i read something like this. I am currently in a confused relationship on how to handle this guy i met two months ago. Obviously he is a Beta male and i never knew it. I have been thinking he is not interested in me. we have even talked about it and he will say he is interested but i have been so confused at his waiting for me to take the lead most times; I used to think its not a manly attitude. i am an alpha female and just trying not to be domineering.
Thanks for this eye-opener
Grace says
I’m in the same boat after more than 2 months. I actually assumed he had other girlfriends since I see him only once every 10-15 days. I still don’t know his real world, we fought because of his closed personality! I’ve never been in his house, his alibi is he has paid roommates! A 50 year old man cannot entertain in his own home? He texts me all day like clockwork, asked me to be exclusive very early, seems to really like me. Yet on Valentine’s day ignored me other than a text at day’s end. A few days later he asked to see me. I said No, because you don’t treat me like a priority. His alibi was, he’d been sick again on the weekend!
Kaywise says
I think people get too serious about all these stuff, where does true love stand in all these ? For example, I love being in control I make the decisions in myrelationships then I met this girl and I notice that she doesn’t like the fact I take control of things and she complained about it and said that she’s scared I’m a control freak. From then on I allow her take some decisions and I also make sure we discuss things through before making decisions together, does that make me a beta male ?
I would say categorising work when u are just in for the fun but if u are looking to settle down and truly love who u are with, u will be ready to make it work and won’t be hell bent on showing what category u are !!
Paul Lane says
You are leading based on her likess too, and every now and then you surprise her with a new place you two have never gone before.
Paul Lane says
Lol Beta males too funny aka lazy males afriad to make a mistake with a woman, he waits around for her to tell him when she wants to do something, he lets her decide instead of make a choice himself. Just walk in any mall you will see plenty beta males walking three to five steps behind the woman, with her complaining the whole time in front of other people. Why oh why can this sorry excuse of a man make a choice already, she wants to go to dinner with you and she asks you to choose a nice place to go, but like the beta male you are, you pass the choice back to her to decide only to have her pass it right back to you, this dumb stufr goes on for about three rounds befor the female get mad and says forget about I just want to stay home. There you go again ruining what could have been a great night for the both of you, which could have lead to sex.
Andrew says
so apparently, women are just meant to be passive bystanders in society
Steve says
My god! This is a horrible site. It propagates myths that somehow “men” should always chase women and “women” should expect that.
Is this some time warp? Did someone (er, that’s you Eric Marc Katz, love the 3 name thing!) step in here from the 13th century?
Should I go grab my horse and strap on my sword? Sorry. I’m a modern guy. If I chase a women, great. If she chases me, great. These ‘rules’ that supposedly everyone knows and follows are just for a particular portion of the population. I’m not an alpha and not a beta and I don’t even know what those other greek letters are. I’m a guy, not a letter in an alphabet.
To all of you who think there is some script that you MUST follow to snag a husband or wife – good for you. Hope it works, really. But please stop with the blanket, all-encompassing statements about men and women please? It’s ridiculous. It should have stopped once everyone left primary/elementary school, because that’s the last time I saw this bullshit being used.
Grow up Eric.
Evan Marc Katz says
First of all, it’s not called “chasing”. It’s called showing interest. If you want a job, do you expect the employer to reach out to you on your couch and see if you’re interested? No. You apply for a job. And if calling a woman to show interest after each date is too much work for you, well, guess what? There’s another guy who is going to show interest and get the girl while you sit here and spew venom on a site that lets women know that yes, if a man likes you, he’ll call you to see you again, instead of sitting back and waiting for her to call.
Second of all, your hyperbole doesn’t serve you. Insulting me doesn’t serve you. Invoking swords doesn’t serve you. You’re just venting that an article like this called attention to the fact that, in fact, women don’t like your way of doing things. That your passive approach to pursuit (based on being a modern guy) is just not all that effective. That women, no matter how modern, LIKE it when a guy makes an effort to show his interest. It’s not a show. It’s not over the top. Call her for a date, plan the date, pay for the date, call her after the date to say you’d like to do it again. Wash, rinse, repeat. Somehow, you think that this is from the 1600s. Well, guess what? Guys who do this with confidence are giving women what THEY want – a clear sign of interest, rather than texting, hanging out, making casual overtures and Netflix and chill.
I didn’t say there is a script that you MUST follow. But I do give best practices – for both women and men. What will work on more women? Sitting back to be pursued or making an effort? How about you go on Match and NOT write to anyone? How about you NOT ask women out when you like them? How about you NOT pay for your early dates? Let me know how it goes. And then come back and tell me that, whether you like it or not, everything I said is true.
You are a passive man who likes letting women pursue. You will get results consistent with that. Men who take the initiative will simply get better results – in all aspects of life.
Finally, learn to read, Steve. My name is Evan, not Eric. Says it all over the site.
Best of luck on your crusade. You probably should hit up every other dating coach on the planet who agrees with me after you’re done here.
jean says
I am now married. I have been for 3 yrs and we dated 3 before that. I read this site religiously while dating and it helped me. One thing I wanted to say is I married a beta male. He is loyal and I know he loves me more than anything but I have to frequently tell myself that because he is not in any way a pursuer. I knew that from the start but he is a good guy. I am hoppier than I have ever been in a relationship but I still feel like the chaser. I initiate date nights, family nights, sex every thing. He thinks he is being kind allowing us to do whatever I want. He doesn’t buy gifts or do anything spontaneious. I frequently wonder if he really wants me but I look and it is just him in every aspect of his life, he is reactive except his hobbies. He has a hard time making proactive moves with friends though. I guess my point before I ramble on is if you are dating a beta they may be the most loyal and sweet people but be ok with never feeling ‘chased’ or romanced because it is against their grain. He is trying in ways because he knows it bother me but it doesn’t feel natural still and I feel unwanted a lot. Wishing you all the success in dating ladies!
Wally says
All this beta and alpha stuff is a load of crap. Games, waiting certain times to message etc. That’s a bunch of fake shit and for people with no real confidence.
Be yourself. The real you. Be genuine. If someone likes you they like you. If not then fuck them. Calmness is being relaxed will make you confident. You’re not going to get the confidence if you aren’t calm and relaxed. You also have to get out of your comfort zone and as in everyday life you have to take the hits to get success. Get willing to get hit ( hurt and rejected ) in order to get to the good.
Beta, alpha, omega, fuck off. Load of shit. Here’s a thought, instead of beating around the bush, display some honesty and what you really want/need WHEN it’s the time for it. After a while, MAKE The time if it’s not happening.
Candice says
The science and chemistry behind Human Sociology and Psychology should be objectively taught and learned on some level to all people from birth to our passing for this thread to be of much assistance.
Sadly, that is not what the powers who be choose for our educational system, because ignorance is bliss to the probable and problematic dissenters.
FACT: Humans are mammalian, predatory, pack scavenging animals who also happen to be tribal and Simian. Learn all there is to know about THAT, and then maybe we can get to the proper perspective and understanding of it ALL.
Alpha, beta, omega personality types amongst the genders and their various age groups, socio-economic background/origins, race, education, intelligence, ethics, sexuality, etc. Waaay too many divergent factors to be taken into consideration here for accurate answers to be known as opposed to emotionally opinionionated replies.
My2cents says
I think women are inundated with the message men will move mountains if they are interested. Although it is perpetuated that it’s more socially acceptable for men to pursue based on some alpha man/ hunter/gatherer evolutionary concept, has anyone paused for a moment to question whether or not we’re operating on a flawed ideology? We are also told somewhere second, third, even fourth to this that men can have the same insecurities that women have. Somehow though, the part about insecurities playing any real role in their behavior falls to the wayside when judging what they “should” be doing.
I agree when you are interested in someone you are compelled to try, whether you are male or female. I also can’t help but think how things are set up for women to want to try, yet they are expected to sit around waiting for the man to suggest everything and direct all movement. Women take men’s actions in the initiative category as the ultimate measure. Maybe it is as black and white as this and I’m missing the point, but I can’t help but think how often a woman’s actions belie her real feelings. Is it not within the realm of possibilities there are men who do the same thing out of uncertainty? Scoff it you want. I’m just of the belief it is shallow and dismissive to both men and women to think men are somehow incapable of being affected by doubts and women are incapable of affecting men beyond men wanting to hit it and quit it.
Call me naive. I don’t really care. I’m tired of the paradigm being portrayed that women must leave it up to the man to define everything and her power lies only in accepting or turning down his definitions. Frankly, this strikes me as blowing sunshine. It’s convincing women with a pat on the head that the paper tiger is mightier than the real tiger. It also puts all the pressure on men to forge ahead without consideration for their feelings regarding rejection.
Each person has their own tolerance level for how much they will risk exposing their feelings. This is an individual choice. People need to stop listening to what their tolerance level “SHOULD” be and start listening to what it actually is. Can this result in keeping something on life support? Yes it can. But, guess what? That is what shapes each person and helps them figure out their own tolerance level.
Perhaps I’m on a mission and should just avoid sites like this because by participating I’m adding to them, but I am beyond tired of all the information out there that tells you how you must be and how ignorant you are about how things are IN YOUR OWN LIFE. Maybe some of the people dispensing their brand of advice have good intentions, maybe they are only in it to make a buck. I don’t know.
What I do know is there is there is absolutely the power of suggestion, especially when people are in a vulnerable state. It’s very easy to take a message to the extreme. I also have a suspicion the messages are meant to be taken as extreme. This helps to ensure you’ll keep coming back to find out what else is wrong with you that you were simply too clueless to realize. The result is that instead of helping a person figure out some finer points of social interaction, they end up believing everything they do is wrong and will fall under the title of unacceptable behavior.
What are we left with then? We are left with an even bigger divide between men and women disguised as helping to bridge the gap. It’s an excellent business model, I must say. It plants the doubts in people’s minds that raise the fear that every text message that was supposedly one sentence too long was the nail in the relationship coffin.
CORRELATIN DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION. If the desire to want to get to know someone is there, even if muted by societal pressure and insecurity, all the nit picking minutiae you are told will be the death won’t matter. What WILL matter is that you (man OR woman) took the chance to express yourself and let the chips fall where they may. If you do this you’ll know instead of turning to some third party who will give you their general view instead of you forming your own view FOR YOU.
How many opportunities were missed before deciding to be the captain of your own ship and to stop buying into this over complication and fear mongering?
Do your own thing. If it doesn’t work you’ll find out soon enough. Above all, put the damn games and preconceived notions aside. Stop playing victim and buying into the the division tactic the other side holds all the power. Treat the other person how you would like to be treated… that’s the real power. And, put your ego in check and stop crafting an exit strategy to ensure you are the victor before anything even starts.
Lynx says
“I’m tired of the paradigm being portrayed that women must leave it up to the man to define everything and her power lies only in accepting or turning down his definitions.”
It is a Friday night and I am avoiding my long-term boyfriend, having given him a lame excuse for not getting together. I have been trying to accept a different paradigm in my relationship with this good man, this intelligent and insightful and consistent man who loves me sincerely — but he is so, so passive. He tolerates behavior from me that he should not; I keep him at arm’s length and he accepts it, he takes whatever small amount of time I will give him. He never complains, although I know he cannot like it, I know he wants more time together, wants us to live together, considers me the love of his life. He never objects to anything I suggest, never pushes back, responds to my every suggestion with “okay”. I’ve broken up with him once, and we were apart for several months, but reunited. As I say, he is a good man with unique traits that I value greatly and know I am unlikely to find again. Is it possible to genuinely love a person for who they are, for their essential being, but decide you cannot be with the person because of their over-obliging way of moving through the world? That sounds crazy, right? How can I complain about a man who is too nice? My family likes him. He is healthy and financially responsible. The sex is great. He’s more fit than many men his age. But, I understand that I cannot change him — his passivity runs so deep, I’ve got to either get over my qualms and accept him for who he is or get out. If I break things off, it will be for good, I won’t keep yo-yo-ing. There’s a fair chance this would be my last shot at a relationship — I’ve read this blog enough to know I’m unwilling to invest the time it would take to find another one. I want to love all of him unconditionally. Why can’t I just be okay with a new paradigm and gladly accept the alpha role?
Rennie says
Lynx, I think you should break up with him. His passive attitude has a bad impact on your self esteem. I would not be able to put up with this.
As a matter of fact, I have just refused a first date with a guy I met during a speed-dating event because even though he took the initiative to ask me to have a drink with him, when I answered him when I was available, his answer (or rather question) to me was: “Let me know what you want to do, where and at what time.” For christ’s sake, how difficult is it to suggest a nice bar to have a drink and suggest a time, especially since I said I was available both on Friday evening and the whole Saturday (which means he could have proposed either drinks on Friday or coffee on Saturday morning, or a walk on Saturday afternoon,…). I am uy no means expecting a guy to take me to a 5 star restaurant for a first date or do something extraordinary, just do something together which allows us to get to know each other a bit better.
I think a passive guy knows very well what he is doing and he puts himself in a very comfortable position. He makes you do all the work. Since you take all the initiative, when an initiative goes wrong, he can blame you. He keeps you constantly on your toes because you are always wondering if he really likes you or just goes along.
I have seen this dynamic play out too often and the result is always that the woman ultimately is totally exhausted.
I think in a good relationship there has to be reciprocity. It might not always be 50 %, some folks might need to get their a$$ kicked a bit. But you should have the feeling that you are in this together and both want it. And you can’t get this feeling with someone who is overly passive.
And yes I know that once you are 50 as a woman, you feel that you don’t have many chances left. But by staying with this guy you are not meeting that one guy that might actually show a bit more initiative.
Jeremy says
This was an unintentionally hilarious comment. You do realize that all your criticisms that apply to men for not initiating or planning…apply equally to You for not doing the same, right? You asked “How hard is it to suggest a nice bar and a time to have a drink.”… So… why didn’t you? You wrote that by not taking initiative, a guy puts himself into a comfortable position to let you do all the work and blame you if things go wrong. ” LOL. Do you not see how this is not gender specific? Do you not realize what that means in terms of your own expectations of yourself? “He keeps you wondering if he really likes you or is just going along “… Exactly so.
Jeremy says
@Lynx, SMH. While this is not your last shot at a relationship, I think it would be wise to consider whether a little mental re-wiring is in order. Whenever I find that healthy food tastes bad, it’s usually because I’ve been eating crap beforehand.
We all have our preferences and proclivities – some prefer a partner who is fit, well-endowed, wealthy, whatever. Those preferences reduce our dating pool, but don’t directly mean that the partner we hold out for will be a bad one. The only exception to this rule is many women’s insistence on a partner who isn’t too giving – giving being the very quality that makes one a good partner. Shit, it’s like a man developing a taste for women who enjoy kicking them in the balls. “Dear Evan, I’m so sick of all the doormat women who are nice. I’ve finally found a keeper who loves to kick me in the balls. The only problem is that my balls hurt all the time! Oh Evan, why can’t I find a woman who loves to kick me in the balls but is also nice?” Ummm, because the two qualities are contradictory? Because the desire to get kicked in the balls is not healthy or conducive to a good relationship? Because a man whose balls are still sore from his last marriage to such a woman should know better?
Jeremy says
One further thing, since I’ve been stewing over your post since last night, lynx. I’ve written before about my observation that people are quick to describe the faults of their exes – their selfishness, their emotional withholding, their abusiveness – but they are often oblivious to their own faults beyond poor choices and boundaries. But keeping a good man at arm’s length emotionally, losing attraction because he is too giving, yoyoing with a man’s emotions…. This is female assholery, the way in which women display selfish, withholding, abusive behaviour toward their significant others. If he was the one writing in for advice I’d tell him to drop you asap. If you have to convince someone to be attracted to you, the relationship will never be satisfying.
That’s my advice to him. To you it’s this – you have 3 choices as I see them : 1) break up with this man and avoid relationships because you aren’t ready for one 2) break up with this man and accept the dreck you’re attracted to. 3) grow the F up.
Rennie says
Jeremy, I think that the problem is that this man is NOT giving… He just goes along but does he ever give from his own initiative? That’s not the feeling I get from what Lynx is writing. She is basically creating the relationship and he follows. It’s comfortable for him but is it what he really wants? She sure does not get that feeling.
Adrian says
Hi Jeremy,
If I may ask; “What was it in Lynx’s post that triggered so strongly?”
You don’t come off as passive or beta to me, so I can’t imagine that you experienced this in your marriage. Yet this seems personal (the subject NOT Lynx) and I am curious why?
Remember that post you had a few weeks ago where you and your wife were watching breaking bad and the wife on the show didn’t want to -I believe- give him a blowjob for his birthday, she rarely did it for him but he often gave her what she wants and he was suppose to understand and accept it… You said that triggered you… very HARD!
At the time I assumed it was because of the sex issue, but now looking at your response to Lynx (as well as other recent post) I’m thinking it is because the wife on the show saw the husband doing things he didn’t want to make her happy as natural/expected. But saw him wanting something she didn’t want to give as being selfish.
Again I see that and the connection could be that the male character on the show was a beta in his marriage and Lynx boyfriend is a beta…. But you are not.
So could it be that you are so triggered by this because you see Lynx as somehow selfish? She takes and he gives?
If so what about free will?
She isn’t forcing him to stay, just as the wife on the show wasn’t forcing the husband to stay with her.
… … …
Just for the record I’m focusing on the subject and NOT YOU… Like Mrs. Happy I love our conversations about human motivation; especially since the vast majority of your personal stories, emotions, and reactions remind me of myself.
I ask you so many questions because in a way understanding you is like understanding myself. So I’m not looking down on you in NO way.
Jeremy says
I don’t mind the question, Adrian. When I was learning about psychology to understand what was wrong with my marriage, what I had done wrong to end up where I was, I experienced many disappointments. Many truths about how attraction works that somehow had eluded both myself and the general public. But nothing, and I mean nothing, made me as angry, as frustrated, as DISGUSTED, as the discovery of the psychology of the fitness test (or shit test). The notion that giving a woman what she asks you for can be responsible for a lowering of her attraction to you via a loss of respect. A loss of respect because you did what she asked! That while a man might think that he is doing everything he can to improve his relationship by giving his wife what she wants, what she actually wants is a man to tell her no. A man who isn’t so accommodating. That giving her what she wants won’t strengthen your marriage, nor make you more likely to get what you want, but rather will weaken it and make her less likely to reciprocate for any reason other than guilt. It made me think back to so many times in my marriage when I could see this effect in retrospect.
Years ago, before we married, my wife had surgery that took months of recovery and pain meds. I stuck with her, did everything I could for her, did everything she asked. And later, years after she had recovered, she reminisced about that time and how nasty she was to me, and she asked me whether there was anything she could have said or done that would have made me break up with her. Its not that she wanted me to have broken up with her, it’s that she would have been more attracted to the sort of man who would have done so. Even though that sort of man would have been a terrible partner to her. This psychology is so toxic! And sooo ubiquitous.
Is not about alpha or beta or that nonsense. It’s about realizing what makes a good partner and what doesn’t. It’s about tendencies that are both masochistic for the women, and sadistic/abusive for their partners. Biology screws us all, but we can rise above it. Men can overcome our urge to violence and self seclusion. Women can overcome their urge to denigrate the one quality that actually matters in long term relationships, their urge to be assholes to men who are good to them. And if they can’t overcome that urge, they should have the decency to walk from those relationships. Because only they know how they feel.
Emily, to says
Adrian and Jeremy,
Adrian asked Jeremy: If I may ask; “What was it in Lynx’s post that triggered so strongly?”
Really? The minute I read Lynx’s post I knew Jeremy would respond. Let’s try something different. Jeremy, tells us a time when you did something out of character. Maybe said no to your wife (and not to the nightly shoulder massages but something bigger). Maybe refused to do something or go somewhere she really wanted you to. Maybe you felt your wants and needs weren’t being heard and you were tired of being compliant with hers. Because if all of a sudden Lynx’s boyfriend had a strong opinion or want every now and then, she might see him differently.
Emily, to says
Jeremy,
That’s my advice to him. To you it’s this – you have 3 choices as I see them : 1) break up with this man and avoid relationships because you aren’t ready for one 2) break up with this man and accept the dreck you’re attracted to. 3) grow the F up.
Ugh. I just read this after posting my other comment to you and Adrian. This man may be too passive for her and I agree that she may need to break up with him, but the rest of your response … you’re moving into MGTOW territory. “Oh, she must like assholes because she doesn’t like beta guys.” I had a friend who was with a guy just like the one Lynx described. Super passive. Went along with everything. And then, TEN YEARS into the relationship, he broke it off, telling her he was tired of her dominating everything! When he had never said anything about that before. That’s the problem with someone who’s too passive. They don’t have the backbone to express themselves and could be stewing in resentment for years and you wouldn’t even know it until they finally explode. Or they do passive-aggressive stuff like a child to get back at the partner who is more take-charge. Bad dynamic.
Jeremy says
Is not about assholes or beta guys, Emily. It’s about specifically losing attraction to guys who do what you ask them. To guys who tolerate the behaviour you show them, knowing it’s bad, testing their reaction.
And while I could give you examples of times I refused my wife’s requests or didn’t tolerate her behavior, especially after I understood this dynamic, I eventually stopped this behavior because I couldn’t respect myself being so shitty of a spouse, going so against my own values of propriety. Just because someone else behaves badly is not an excuse to behave badly oneself.
You and lynx and everyone else are obviously free to like whomever you like. But not to treat partners like shit and then blame them.
Adrian says
Hi Emily,
You said, “Really? The minute I read Lynx’s post I knew Jeremy would respond.”
Really? What about it told you he would? I was surprised by his response; especially the emotion behind it. I didn’t sense that Lynx was attacking her guy (or men) in anyway…
You said, “Ugh. I just read this after posting my other comment to you and Adrian.”
Ahhh… Now you understand why I asked him what triggered the strong emotional reaction.
You said, “I had a friend who was with a guy just like the one Lynx described.”
I was with a girl like this back in my first semester as a freshman in undergrad college. I was constantly blindsided by her explosive outburst because as you said she waited months to bring up something I did that upset her. I was constantly walking on egg shells.
I wonder how old Lynx is because now as an adult I could not be with someone like that. At the time this girl seemed so special and unique and I feared I would never find another like her so I tried to stay, but now I realize that:
1. No one is really unique-there is always another. Maybe instead of ABC they are BAC, but all the letters are still there, just in a different order.
When Evan says try someone different that is what I think he means. Not date someone who DOESN’T have any qualities you desire but date someone who has EVERYTHING you want but just not exactly like YOU think it should appear.
2. You have to love yourself more than you love someone else or you will not respect yourself enough to walk away when that person is hurting you. Hell when you are blinded by love your thoughts are so sadly twisted that you think by enduring their mistreatment you are somehow showing/proving your love for them is worth it.
Emily, to says
Jeremy,
“It’s about specifically losing attraction to guys who do what you ask them. To guys who tolerate the behavior you show them, knowing it’s bad, testing their reaction.”
I hope I wouldn’t engage in that type of behavior you described, but I also probably wouldn’t date a man who was as passive as Lynx described her boyfriend. The last guy I spent time with didn’t seem passive at first … but he seemed to share almost EVERY opinion and like/dislike I had. (Obviously he didn’t, he was just trying to please me and it made me uncomfortable.) And I did breakup with him after a few months. I did not drag it out. I hope in the future when I do start dating again that if I wanted to do something and the man didn’t, he would have the backbone and the fortitude to say he didn’t care to. Not because he was testing me or intentionally saying no to prove a point but because he felt free to express his opinion and was ok with the fact that I may like it. Meaning: His need to say what he did and did not want to do (to have an open dialogue about it) was greater than his need to please.
And men do the same type of behavior you are describing. When I was in my 20s, I was bending over backwards to do what I thought the guy wanted. They either got bored or walked all over me.
Adrian says
Hi Jeremy,
You said, “The psychology of the fitness test (or shit test).”
I thought this was just something PUA guys made up.
Would you mind giving me some examples of how women do this”subtly” ? I ask for subtle because I think I would see blatant attempts at this.
You said, “That giving her what she wants won’t strengthen your marriage, nor make you more likely to get what you want, but rather will weaken it and make her less likely to reciprocate for any reason other than guilt”
Isn’t this just certain types of women?
Evan would say not all women are like this so just choose better quality women.
But I think you are saying all women are like this. If so then isn’t Tron and his kind right? Relationships aren’t worth it if you can’t be with someone whom you can just give openly and freely to without them thinking you are weak?
A few months back I was leaving the grocery store with my toddler niece (6 yrs old) and my little sister. When my niece opened the door it lightly tapped the other guys car (no scratches). He jumped out and got in my face cursing at me and calling me names… My first instinct was to BREAK this guy. I go to the gym regularly so my body is solid, I’m 5’11 and I’m 32. This guy had to be about 55-60 years old, short overweight, with a old man body and a beer belly. I could have stomped that guy without even breaking a sweat.
But I didn’t, I held down my anger and apologized because I DIDN’T WANT TO GO JAIL. I felt so emasculated in front of my sister and niece-so it was a lose-lose situation. If I knock the guy out I lose, if I don’t do anything I lose.
To me this is what your story sounds like. If you are nice (balls or no balls) you lose and if you fake it, play games, be mysterious, play hard to get you lose because you are not being true to yourself.
You said, “Many truths about how attraction works that somehow had eluded both myself and the general public.”
This drives me CRAZY!!! Women say they want one thing but their actions show they want the other. Do you think they consciously realize they are doing this?
Have you ever read the book Dataclysm? He used the data from over 600,000,000 online daters and the data confirms many things men say about women in regards to dating. Yet women will still fight you saying that they don’t care about _ or _ doesn’t really attract them; all that matters is a good kind heart. It’s like the data of 6 million people is wrong, they are right.
Emily, to says
Big Adrian,
Really? What about it told you he would? I was surprised by his response; especially the emotion behind it. I didn’t sense that Lynx was attacking her guy (or men) in anyway…
Because he has written extensively about the man doing everything the woman wants and the woman losing attraction.
You have to love yourself more than you love someone else or you will not respect yourself enough to walk away when that person is hurting you. Hell when you are blinded by love your thoughts are so sadly twisted that you think by enduring their mistreatment you are somehow showing/proving your love for them is worth it.
That’s just it. When you’re in the mindset of proving your worth/trying to prove how much you like them/trying to get them to like you, you start acting like a different person, twisting yourself into whoever you think they want. It’s not a healthy thing to do and the other person doesn’t necessarily like you any more for it.
I mentioned in my response to Jeremy the last guy I spent time with and him sharing all my opinions. I was specially referring to sex. He liked everything I said I did. C’mon … what’s the likelihood of that? He would have said anything to keep it going, which turned me off. Who was this guy? I didn’t know. He was too busy trying to be somebody else.
Jeremy says
Emily, there are 3 different scenarios that tend to get conflated:
1) Man doesn’t like something, but pretends to like it because he likes the woman and is trying to earn her affection.
2) Man does what the woman likes because in this case he doesn’t care about the choice and she seems to. For example, letting her choose the movie or the restaurant because he’d really be ok with just about anything and has the priority of just spending time together. He isn’t trying to earn anything, he legitimately doesn’t care about this choice but rather about the company.
3) Man prefers not to do a certain thing, lets his partner know his preferences, but gives in to her anyway after discussion because relationships require compromise.
I’d agree with you (and most women) that Type 1 guy is dangerous – because given time and hedonic adaptation, he will eventually stop pretending, she will discover who he really is and what he really likes, and he might feel entitled to some “earned” payback (which, of course, was never earned because his contracts were all covert). But type 2 and 3 guys are good relationship partners to whom many women lose attraction for being overly accommodating, and will falsely blame their similarity to type 1 guys as their overt excuse.
I understand that you once dated a man for whom you bent over backwards and he dumped you anyway. That’s a shame, and we’ve all had shitty partners/experiences. But I guarantee you, without ever having met that guy, that he wouldn’t have treated you better nor liked you any more if you had started refusing him and erecting boundaries. That isn’t a guy thing.
Jeremy says
Adrian, your questions are so important for any young man seeking marriage. I wish I’d had the knowledge to even ask the questions you ask at your age. So please forgive the length of my reply, but I hope it is useful to you and others.
First of all, fitness tests (I prefer that name) are not something PUAs invented. They are very, very real and they are not limited to women. Children, for example, do this all the time unwittingly. Children ask for all sorts of things, and the more you give them the more they ask for – the more outlandish and entitled their requests. But here’s the thing – children subconsciously respect boundaries. Give them everything they want and they’ll not only walk all over you, they’ll not respect you. Refuse them, put up boundaries, give in only occasionally – and they may throw tantrums, may tell you they hate you….but they’ll respect you. And children need to respect their parents/teachers, need boundaries for their sense of personal security. You can’t feel secure with someone you don’t respect – they can’t offer you security. They want what they want when they ask for it, they have no conscious awareness that they’d respect you more for refusing their requests….but they would.
Men don’t seek security from women. It doesn’t feature at all in our pie-charts. Which is why men don’t need to respect women to be attracted to them. We need to respect them to want to marry them and have children with them – you need security from the person who will co-raise your children – but not for simple attraction. Women though, as we’ve discussed before, very much do need to respect men to be attracted in the long-term. Not just for love, but for attraction – because security features very, very prominently in their pie-charts. So they test us to see if we are respect-worthy. Like the child, they often have no conscious awareness that they’d rather we refuse their requests – when they ask us for something they totally believe they want it, get angry/frustrated when we refuse, but respect us more for doing so – and respect leads to attraction for women.
I once had a girlfriend who would do this overtly – she’d ask for something outrageous, I’d give it to her, and she’d actually tell me that my having done so made her lose respect for me. But this is the exception, IMHO, as it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to avoid women like that. Far more common IME are women like my own wife – women who’d vehemently deny that they have any element of this in their psyche at all. Women who invest in their own maturity – who’d tell you (and believe!) that when they ask for something it’s because they want it, who tell you that they want you to express your emotions, who tell you that comfort qualities lead to their arousal. Adrian, they say it and they believe it, and they are right about themselves enough of the time to have evidence for it….but only if they ignore the disconfirming evidence of all the…other times.
You asked for examples of subtle tests – I can think of so many. But here’s a salient one, given where we are. Years ago my wife took issue with the fact that I read and comment on this site. She felt that it was inappropriate and she asked me not to. I thought about her request and flat out refused. Told her that I won’t allow anyone else to dictate what I read, where I go, or what I say. And when she tried to argue I told her that as far as I was concerned the discussion was over. She got angry. She accused me of being uncaring of her opinions. Of being stubborn, selfish, arrogant. I didn’t budge. She raged, she argued, she stormed out…..and she was very affectionate later. And whether that was because she found my refusal arousing, or whether she was trying to “win me back/over” with her behavior, truth is it doesn’t matter. What works and what doesn’t?
On the other hand, there were many times when I did capitulate – capitulated for Type 2 and Type 3 reasons I described for Emily above. Similar reasons for why you walked away from confrontation in the parking lot, Adrian, because fighting would only have made things worse. And that capitulation never, and I do mean NEVER, resulted in greater arousal from my wife, though it did increase her comfort.
Please don’t misunderstand here, Adrian, and think I’m saying that women always (or usually) want to be refused. They don’t. We need to distinguish between comfort and arousal. Giving in to requests increases comfort. Refusing increases arousal. A good marriage has more comfort than arousal. You’ll give in more often than you refuse. Giving in should be the default state; refusal should be a tool in your back pocket for use when needed. Not all women need as much refusal to maintain arousal. Good wives need hardly any at all. It is possible to choose a woman who likes being treated well, who feels happy and comfortable with you for treating her well….just look out for loss of arousal and realize what it takes to reverse the situation is not more of what you’ve been doing. Because these women will be happy enough without the arousal, will tell their friends they have great marriages – and believe it, just like they believe all the other things we discussed above.
Adrian, you wrote, “To me this is what your story sounds like. If you are nice (balls or no balls) you lose and if you fake it, play games, be mysterious, play hard to get you lose because you are not being true to yourself.” Be yourself. If, like me, you respect yourself for treating others well and living according to a code of personal ethics, behave this way and let the chips fall where they may. If a woman is unattracted to you for being so, dump her with prejudice. If a woman is attracted to you 95% of the time for being so but requires a little something more for 5%, learn how to give that to her. Otherwise that 5% will become 50% and you’ll find yourself where I was years ago. But don’t expect her to be attracted to you 100% of the time, because women’s arousal is highly dichotomous and no man can be both ways.
Emily, to says
Jeremy,
I understand that you once dated a man for whom you bent over backwards and he dumped you anyway. That’s a shame, and we’ve all had shitty partners/experiences.
But they weren’t shitty. I was so accommodating, so obviously trying to win their approval, to use your phrase, they lost arousal. Hell, I was turning myself off. They lost interest, which is also what happens when men don’t have some level of balls with the women they’re dating. Isn’t that what this site advocates, to have some level of balls? I have to believe there are “nice guys with balls” out there. Guys who realized they were once too accommodating and moved a little more to the center but not into complete asshole territory.
Jeremy says
It does not take “balls” to act like a child, to prioritize our own personal selfishness and personal gain. It takes BALLS to act for the greater good, to prioritize the relationship, to put one’s own personal priorities on the backburner to invest in something greater. Mrs Happy once expressed wonder that I was up with my own children most nights when they cried – her personal experience was that most working men did not do so, in spite of what their wives might have wanted. Tell me, Emily, which takes balls – to be the one to wake up or to be the one to refuse? To be the one to prioritize himself, or to be the one to prioritize others?
The notion that “balls” means the prioritization of personal preferences is such unadulterated bullshit, so masochistically toxic, such an evolutionary short-circuit, that I can hardly believe it. The fact that women specifically seek out that trait…unbelievable. I’m too emotional about this. Should take a breather.
Lynx says
@Jeremy, @Adrian, @Emily, to: I appreciate the discussion following my post, it is such a help to read how others think. (I practice “Screen-free Sundays” so did not read this until Monday.)
It might be useful to clarify, for additional context. Both my boyfriend and I are in our mid-50s, both of us were in ~20 year marriages to narcissistic spouses. We were both passive-aggressive in our marriages (I’m not proud of that, just being honest.) Both of our spouses would get loud, angry, tantrumy, threatening when things didn’t go their way. So, @Jeremy, your comment, “Whenever I find that healthy food tastes bad, it’s usually because I’ve been eating crap beforehand.” immediately hit home.
A significant part of our attraction to one another is because we are both calm, rational, communicative people who are self-reflective, open to admitting our role in a problem, and open to shifting if it makes sense. (Another shoutout to @Jeremy, point well taken about the options you suggest — I agree this is a me problem.)
It is not like I have asked him to jump through a bunch of hoops — I am loathe to do that. Over our years of dating, I have explicitly asked him to make just one significant change (a pet-related housebreaking issue) and it literally took years for me to speak up. I don’t believe one should ask others to change. So, it is not a situation where I asked him to do X, Y and Z, he did it, then I lost attraction.
Here is my concern: If we live together, I will be responsible for EVERYTHING. If a bulb burns out, I will replace it; if money needs investing, I will research it; if a dog needs grooming, I will make the appointment; if a faucet leaks, I will fix it. I will decide any novel restaurants we go to, any novel activities we do, any novel vacations. He is very bright, and in that absent-minded professor way where he does not see these things need doing, and procrastinates mightily when it does finally sink in (and he acknowledges this). I have raised two children and am grateful I no longer have to tell them what to all the time — I don’t want to go back there.
The irony of my situation isn’t lost on me, because I have no doubt my ex felt the same way about me. Perhaps I am simply reaping what I’ve sown.
Emily, to says
Hi Lynx,
“If we live together, I will be responsible for EVERYTHING. If a bulb burns out, I will replace it; if money needs investing, I will research it; if a dog needs grooming, I will make the appointment; if a faucet leaks, I will fix it. I will decide any novel restaurants we go to, any novel activities we do, any novel vacations. … I have raised two children and am grateful I no longer have to tell them what to all the time — I don’t want to go back there.”
Thanks for weighing in, and you hit the nail on the head in terms of the biggest issue with a passive man: You have to do everything. For some women, that gets tiring and they start to resent having to take on that role.
Emily, to says
Jeremy,
Tell me, Emily, which takes balls – to be the one to wake up or to be the one to refuse? To be the one to prioritize himself, or to be the one to prioritize others?
Obviously, when you have children, both parents have to compromise and sacrifice personal preferences for the sake of the greater good of the family. We’re talking at cross purposes here because I don’t want children and don’t plan on being with someone who has them. You’re writing about examples that are a lot more serious in nature than mine. Once I get out of my current work predicament and move, I’ll be looking for someone who really turns me on. So someone “having some balls” is right up my alley because passive doesn’t do much for me. Of course, down the road, if I get serious, I’ll have to consider all the factors. What this site advocates to look for …. kindness, consistency, character, etc.
S. says
@ Emily, to
I’ll have to consider all the factors. What this site advocates to look for …. kindness, consistency, character, etc.
You don’t want that right now? I can’t imagine not having kindness at the center of even my most superficial relationships. The mail carrier spoke sharply to me once and it changed my view of her completely, lol!
I agree that is the crux about passive men. I wish they’d speak out about why a woman has to do EVERYTHING. Or why they need so much support to do the simplest things. But alas, they might be too shy to chime in.
That said, I’d still make that compromise for kindness any time of the day or week. In a heartbeat. Yeah, there are guys in the middle but they are rare and usually taken which is fair enough, I guess.
Jeremy says
Thanks for your reply, Lynx, and truly I don’t mean to pick on you. I remember very well your past descriptions of your marriage, of your ex, and of your experiences while married. Which is why I found your post here so vexing.
In order for any relationship to have a future, 3 things must be present: Chemistry, Compatibility, and Friendship. Without any one of these 3 legs, the tripod of the relationship will collapse. Your initial post here made it sound like the missing factor was the chemistry – you were turned off by his passive behavior. Your second post makes it sound like compatibility is the missing factor – you worry that in your future together the power balance will be all askew because you will be stuck doing everything. So which is it? And let’s not take the easy way out and say both. Let’s be real and determine which is the reason and which is the post-hoc justification.
Many, many women complain about uneven power dynamics in their marriages, about being stuck doing too much of the work. Sometimes the complaints are because they are legitimately doing way more than 50% of all the total work. But sometimes they’re complaining because they don’t WANT to be doing what they’re doing. Not because the total workload is unfair, but because they specifically don’t want to be doing WHAT they’re doing, or (so commonly) don’t want to be doing it for the PERSON they’re doing it for. Don’t feel that there’s enough in it for them in return.
During my marital troubles, my wife would refuse sex due to a complaint of headache. But she’d run a marathon after a night of intense stomach pain and zero sleep. She’d do an intense morning workout (called “tread-sanity”) while she had fever and body aches of strep throat. I came to understand something about her, and about most people really – we’d move heaven and earth to do the things we WANT to do. And we’d find any excuse we can to avoid doing what we don’t want to do. When someone doesn’t do something, it’s most often because they don’t want to. They might be embarrassed for not wanting to, their desires may conflict with their “shoulds” and they may invent excuses to save face….but the problem is the wants, not the shoulds.
Emily, to says
S.,
You don’t want that right now? I can’t imagine not having kindness at the center of even my most superficial relationships.
No. Once start to consider other qualities other than attraction, attraction begins to decrease. It has to. You’re weighing it against everything else. This isn’t to say it’s non-existent, but as this site advocates, it’s not rocket high.
I agree that is the crux about passive men. I wish they’d speak out about why a woman has to do EVERYTHING. Or why they need so much support to do the simplest things. But alas, they might be too shy to chime in.
I’m probably overly sensitive to the passive thing but my father is passive and he bungles even the simplest tasks, so you just learn to do it yourself.
S. says
@Emily, too
Attraction itself decreases? Or the importance of attraction decreases? I can’t see wanting to have sex with someone who wasn’t kind. Does not compute to me, but to each their own.
but my father is passive
Explains a lot. My dad was too, but I didn’t grow up with him. They are so sweet, though. Hard for me to resist. But I must. I do get frustrated eventually but it takes a long, long time before I do.
I do wonder what it’s like to be a person like this. As a woman living alone, I learned early on how to open slippery jars of marinara sauce, use a flathead when I didn’t have a Phillips, just basic things. Ah, well. Everyone has their things, I guess.
I will reiterate what Michelle says above. I do feel safer with these men than any other type of man and thetr is something restful and sheer relief about that. To each their own!
Lynx says
@Emily, to: yes, exactly.
—–
@Jeremy: No worries, I was not offended by your comments. My hope was to hear different points of view — I already know my own, I wasn’t seeking an echo chamber.
“Your initial post here made it sound like the missing factor was the chemistry… Your second post makes it sound like compatability… So which is it?”
Excellent question, it’s causing me to think carefully. At this point the chemistry with my boyfriend is intact. With my ex, the attraction waned as he started to behave more and more like a dictatorial father. I felt like his rebellious adolescent child, not his partner.
My concern with my boyfriend is the opposite: if I must either nag him to do his ‘chores’ or do all the practical work myself, I will start feeling like his mother. If that happens, then buh-bye sex. I really don’t want that to happen (a toast to the nice guys out there, in my experience, you’re better in bed).
Thus the distance I keep between us. If we are in separate households, it’s a non-issue. Except, of course, it IS an issue, because here I am stewing about it.
Emily, to says
S.,
“Attraction itself decreases? Or the importance of attraction decreases? I can’t see wanting to have sex with someone who wasn’t kind. Does not compute to me, but to each their own.”
I’m assuming you keep mentioning kindness because that is an attractant for you? To me, kindness is a personality trait that makes you like the person but has nothing to do with attraction. Here’s what I’m looking for: “Just meeting him that first day sent my body temperature skyrocketing as though I had been dropped into a very hot bath, and I went into a full-body blush.” I did not write that, but it perfectly describes a powerful, visceral, physiological response. That kind of attraction does not necessarily lead to a relationship or someone you can connect with emotionally or trust. That’s the kind of attraction you get if you’re only filtering for attraction. But once you start also filtering for character, consistency, wants a relationship, compatibility, etc., you (a universal you) probably won’t find the other things along with a 10 level chemistry. Because you’re juggling a lot of qualities and not just one.
“I do wonder what it’s like to be a person like this. As a woman living alone, I learned early on how to open slippery jars of marinara sauce”
I had a male friend tell me he once overheard his wife tell a friend, “Don’t worry. (Bob) will take care of it.” And that made him feel really good. She had confidence in him to take care of the issue they were having (it was more serious than opening a jar. :))
“I do feel safer with these men than any other type of man”
That’s because there’s less polarity.
Mrs Happy says
Lynx,
re your thoughts – “if I must either nag him to do his ‘chores’ or do all the practical work myself, I will start feeling like his mother. If that happens, then buh-bye sex.”
I’m just reading Gemma Hartley’s ‘Fed Up’ book, and your comment makes me wonder just how much the unequal mental workload contributes to desire and libido changes over time in a relationship.
(Reading the book is making me resentful and angry.)
Jeremy says
Lynx, only you know how you feel. But regarding the question I asked you above, I’m going to quote your words from your first post here – your descriptors of this man: “this good man, this intelligent and insightful and consistent man who loves me sincerely — but he is so, so passive….I keep him at arm’s length and he accepts it, he….considers me the love of his life….he is a good man with unique traits that I value greatly…My family likes him. He is healthy and financially responsible. The sex is great. He’s more fit than many men his age….I want to love all of him unconditionally.”
Look at all your descriptors of him, Lynx, and read between the lines of what is conspicuously absent. He thinks of you as the love of his life….where’s your description of your love for him? All the words you used are descriptors of why you believe you SHOULD love him. Totally absent is your description of your ACTUAL love. You want to love him for so many reasons….but your writing makes me think that you might not. You write that your “chemistry” is intact, that the sex is good because he tries to please you in bed…..but where is your love, Lynx? Only you know.
There is a world of difference between “I love him but I worry we might not be compatible,” versus “I SHOULD love him, why don’t I?”
Adrian says
Hi Lynx
You said, “As I say, he is a good man with unique traits that I value greatly and know I am unlikely to find again… There’s a fair chance this would be my last shot at a relationship… I’ve read this blog enough to know I’m unwilling to invest the time it would take to find another one.”
I’m confused. Is it that you don’t believe a man with great qualities will be attracted to you? Are you holding on to your boyfriend out of fear, and a belief that “for me” this will probably be the best I can get?
Lynx says
@Mrs Happy: “(Reading the book is making me resentful and angry.)”
When my husband and I separated, I finally allowed the resentment I’d been swallowing for years to blossom into anger. I am generally not an especially angry person, so this was a new experience. My favorite outlet was doing slam balls at the gym, I’d visualize his face on the wooden floor every time I hurled the ball down.
Eventually, the day came when I no longer thought of him during that exercise, and knew I’d moved past the anger phase.
Lynx says
Ah, @Jeremy, I suspect you’ve nailed it. My head loves him, my heart really, really likes him way more than it likes a lot of people.
Lynx says
@Adrian: “I’m confused. Is it that you don’t believe a man with great qualities will be attracted to you? Are you holding on to your boyfriend out of fear, and a belief that “for me” this will probably be the best I can get?”
No, it’s not that I don’t think I could attract another quality guy — I have a lot going for me, actually, even if I am ‘old’ (!) I’m very fit, energetic, bright, and personable. I genuinely like men. It’s more that I think maybe there’s something wonky with my ability to be emotionally intimate. I mean, if I can’t love this guy enough — a man who so deserves to be loved — who can I?
There is another factor: I must prioritize income generation for the next ~5 to 10 years to make sure I don’t burden my children as I age. I feel unable to serve two masters, either a relationship or career must come first.
Jeremy says
I hope you don’t think me presumptuous for continuing to comment here, Lynx, but what you admitted in post 148 was clear to me since your first post. Hence my vitriol. I shouldn’t have been so blunt and opinionated, but I hope you realize that even though your heart likes him more than it likes most people, it will be very painful for him to hear that that’s the way you feel if he thinks you’re the love of his life. And the longer he feels that way, the worse it will be for him.
I wrote to you above that some mental re-wiring may be necessary if you hope for a happy relationship. Problem with re-wiring isn’t just that it’s difficult, it’s that the timing matters. You gotta do it BEFORE you meet the guy, not after. Because how you see him when you begin a relationship will set the tone for how you continue to see him. If you find him un-arousing from the get-go, you aren’t likely to suddenly find him arousing because you tell yourself you should. It is very different to do the mental/emotional work first, re-wire yourself not just to what sort of man would be good for you, but to re-wire what sort of man you find AROUSING – and THEN meet that guy. If you can’t do that, if your “shoulds” and your “wants” are in direct opposition, then you might be ready for short-term relationships but not long-term marriage. It can be done. Just takes effort and…honesty.
Honesty. The reason I went through this exercise was to (hopefully) help you realize something – that when we don’t want to believe something about ourselves, we create bullshit excuses and then believe them. Like your idea that you need to focus on income-generation for 5-10 years. I mean, meet a guy and get married and suddenly you have much more disposable income, don’t you? Is it that you need to focus on income generation, or that you’re looking for an excuse not to go through this difficult emotional roller-coaster again? There’s nothing wrong with the latter, there’s just something wrong with obfuscating the truth from ourselves. Prevents us from growth.
Lynx says
Hey, @Jeremy, this is cheaper and more convenient than therapy, I don’t mind the continued discussion.
Here’s what I’m wondering: love is a verb, right? I have read that arranged marriages can be successful when both parties enter knowing it will be work, as opposed to our overly-romanticized idea that a good relationship should be effortless, always.
What if I am simply not trying hard enough? If I took more effort, if I invested more time and thought and care into it, what might happen?
There are no examples of successful marriages in my family, so I have no role models. I frequently wonder where the line is between a relationship that would improve with work, and a relationship that is doomed.
And yeah, as I wrote about the income issue, I thought you might call, bullshit. But I have serious PTSD from my marriage about this — my failure to contribute enough money to the household is the reason for my husband’s anger toward me, and why he initiated the divorce (I took 5 years off paid work after our first was born, but have worked since; it still wasn’t enough). He cheated and is now in a domestic partnership with a woman my age, but who is very well-off from having divorced a wealthy man — I’m probably the only 50-something woman who wasn’t dumped for a younger model. So, I really do feel the need to be financially independent. I will never allow another man to accuse me of “marrying a wallet”.
Jeremy says
Nothing is impossible if you set your mind to it, Lynx. Daniel Gilbert, a happiness researcher, believes that we can synthesize happiness if we perceive our situations to be irreversible. This is how prison inmates, cancer patients, and arranged marriage partners can become happier than one might otherwise expect, happier by far than the average. It’s the notion of reversibility that prevents us from being happy sometimes. Which is why people who don’t take a receipt with their purchase are often happier with the purchase than those with the option of returning it.
Of course, other factors are also at play. Especially since some people who perceive their situations to be irreversible are also miserable. This relates to our expectations. What sort of marriage do we want, for example, what do we expect? Do we want an intertwining of souls or do we want a help-mate for our daily tasks? Do we want a mind-mate to challenge us, or a play-mate to relax with us? A person who wants a soul-mate is the hardest to satisfy IME. What type of relationship do you want? What type does he want?
Lynx says
On one hand, I am that person who routinely declines receipts. On the other hand, when I read your questions, my gut response was soul mate. Sigh.
Emily, to says
Lynx,
In reading your posts, it sounds like your ex-husband was a bit of a bully. With your boyfriend, it sounds like you have picked someone who is the exact opposite. But this site stresses nice guys with balls. Surely, there are guys who exist somewhere in the middle.
Jeremy says
Well, I’m supposed to be working on speeches for my upcoming Passover seders, trying to bridge the gaps between all the disparate attendees. To create something fun for the fun-seekers, meaningful for the meaning-seekers, family-community-oriented for the community seekers, and interesting for the intellectuals. Yet here I am procrastinating, offering romantic advice to the love-lorn. Why should this night be different from any other night?
A thought about soul-mates, Lynx. In order to form the type of bond you seek, 2 ingredients are necessary: The first is the ability to be vulnerable, to be truly seen by another person without the fear of shame and rejection. The second is the ability to accept a partner who does the same.
I mentioned Brene Brown’s book “Daring Greatly” to Adrian recently in one of my comments – I’d recommend you pick it up, Lynx. It discusses how we all fear shame – how we fear that we are somehow NOT ENOUGH. Especially if we’ve been rejected before eg. by a husband for not earning enough money, not being pretty enough, not giving enough…..not enough enough. We feel that shame so deeply, we turn from it, run from it, and build barriers against it to prevent ourselves from feeling it, experiencing it. Some build barriers by controlling and perfecting their environment. Others withdraw emotionally, see the world as kill or be killed, be a hammer or be a nail. But when we build barriers against vulnerability, we cannot intertwine our soul (or self or ego or whatever you want to call it) with that of another. We stand in our own way until we can take down our barriers and be vulnerable.
And once we do that, we have to be attracted to partners who do the same, rather than people who do the exact opposite. And it’s so easy (especially for women) to be attracted to people who do the opposite, who seem invulnerable, because women are attracted to the traits they most admire in themselves or else wish they had themselves. And how many women wish they were invulnerable to shame? WHY is the alpha male attractive? WHY is confidence attractive – especially given that the Dunning-Kruger Effect shows that the most confident people are the ones who know the least? It is because they seem invulnerable, and we wish we were invulnerable too. Toxic.
We have to learn to be vulnerable, we have to be attracted to other vulnerable people. Only then can we hope to find a soul-mate.
Emily, to says
Jeremy,
“WHY is confidence attractive – especially given that the Dunning-Kruger Effect shows that the most confident people are the ones who know the least?”
They’ve done studies across cultures. Confidence is the only universal attractant. And you can argue against it all you want, but it’s like me getting angry that men are attracted to young women because I’m not young anymore. It’s an argument I can’t win.
Carty says
As terrible as this sounds, if he will share his money, I would take a passive guy. Part of my issue with relationships is that I want a two-person cult in which I am the GODDESS. I like the guy that I am speaking with now more than any other guy from the past because I get the worship that I want. I’m nice to him, though, I’m not bossy or curt or anything like that. I do want to tell a man everything so that I can get exactly what I want. I saw my mother be helpless in her relationship and that turned me off men who wouldn’t be obedient.
Evan Marc Katz says
“I’m not bossy. I want to be a GODDESS.” Good luck with that.
Rajio says
Well as a guy. I’m often slow to ask a girl out, simply because I may not have been thinking about dating at the time I met her. Like I’ll meet the girl, and maybe she doesn’t quite fit the stereotype of what I was looking for at the time, so I don’t really think about it. Then after I get to know her for a while, eventually it’s like a switch is flicked and then I’m interested.
Often the girl seems to assume that I was interested from the beginning and that I was just too nervous to ask her out. But it’s little more complicated than that. Then because I took so long to become interested, then I get a little nervous because the timing no longer feels spontaneous.
Marcia Nobuyama says
i’m “dating” a beta male right now and can’t stand the fact that he wont ever plan anything or invite me over or anything. It’s driving me nuts! He always says “let’s do whatever makes you happy” , but what would make me happy is if he took initiative.
Steven P. says
I am totally sick and tired of so-called experts (without psychological academic credentials) saying that men who are passive are wimps who are not worthy of love. Some of us are just introverted, but we are 100% happy being so. The problem is the women who project fantasies on to us, wishing we were something other than what we genuinely are as men. I am not a knight in shining armor who would rather die on my horse than fall off of it. I went thru a tremendously traumatic childhood which was worsened by sexist males who insisted I be more macho. I am sick of it. I would rather be single than to give in to women who insist I change or player coaches who think I am some BETA male. Screw you. I am perfectly happy as I am. But I deserve love as much as anyone else, which does not mean that I shouldn’t take initiative at times.
Mrs Happy says
Dear Lynx,
re your comment at #149,
“There is another factor: I must prioritize income generation for the next ~5 to 10 years to make sure I don’t burden my children as I age. I feel unable to serve two masters, either a relationship or career must come first.”
This is a terrible mindset. What man wouldn’t enter or maintain a relationship because he had to earn money? What extra work should women need to do within an adult relationship in their 50s, no dependant child in sight? None at all, is the answer; the male and the female can both enjoy a relationship while having a job or career. Women do not have to take on extra emotional work and sacrifice their careers.
Lynx, when I read your initial comment I mainly heard your utter frustration at being in a romantic (any) relationship with such a pudding. Someone who just sort of sat there, never thinking or doing anything for themselves, would drive me nuts, whether I knew them as a friend, family member, colleague, partner, even just an acquaintance or neighbour with so little initiative would see me scurry away from such a blancmange. Ughgh. How absolutely exhausting, to have to carry another adult so.
I think you were in no way ‘fitness testing’ or whatever similar BS idea/term is doing the rounds. You just didn’t like being with a pudding. These pudding people have no vitality, no identifiable essence. Yes they’re good and kind and flexible and amenable, …. but they seem like emptiness to me. Freud wrote about the drives and instincts that direct behaviour, and the term libido. In some ways it is fitting that the term libido defines both these attributes, and sex, because sex drive and an intense female sexual response is so predicated on a man having such attributes, i.e. a zest for life. Looking at this dynamic through a fitness test lens, or just via your partner’s kindness, is missing the main point.
Jeremy says
We are all entitled to our preferences, and to break up with partners for any reason we choose. What we are not entitled to do is to behave poorly toward a relationship partner in the hopes that he/she will snap at us at that we can be more attracted to them. As Lynx described herself doing – behaving more and more poorly toward this man in the hopes that he would stop tolerating her. Such is exactly a fitness test. Textbook.
Mrs Happy says
Dear Jeremy @ #162:
Rubbish. There is nothing in Lynx’s comment at #119 about fitness testing her boyfriend. There are reams about her being sick to death of his passivity and inertia, but nowhere does she suggest or describe asking him for something, only to want that something refused. You (and some others) seem obsessed with the idea of fitness tests. Not liking every part of your relationship isn’t a fitness test. Wishing your partner were different isn’t a fitness test. Asking your partner to do something, and emotionally coping with the answer, whether it be yes or no, isn’t a fitness test.
This is the essence of her beef:
“If we live together, I will be responsible for EVERYTHING.”
that’s not a fitness test, it’s a cry for help.
Jeremy says
Dear Mrs Happy at #163.
You wrote, “There is nothing in Lynx’ comment about fitness testing her boyfriend.”
Lynx wrote, “He tolerates behavior from me that he should not; I keep him at arm’s length and he accepts it, he takes whatever small amount of time I will give him. He never complains, although I know he cannot like it, I know he wants more time together, wants us to live together, considers me the love of his life. He never objects to anything I suggest, never pushes back, responds to my every suggestion with “okay”.. Is it possible to genuinely love a person for who they are, for their essential being, but decide you cannot be with the person because of their over-obliging way of moving through the world?”
This is a giant fitness test, Mrs Happy. It is plain. If she was just sick to death of his passivity and inertia, she should break up with him. Not give him less and less in the hopes he will push back and not respond “okay.” She wants the pushback so as to feel aroused, because right now she doesn’t. Well, “right now” as of that comment. I believe that relationship has ended in the present.
Mrs Happy says
Disagree.
Not a fitness test, just her being over his passive behaviour, and emotionally checking out.
Even if he made a small transient show of effort, he’d quickly revert to type. It is not a fitness test to be frustrated, want something different, hope for a certain behaviour, from a partner; that’s just standard and common human interaction.
Reducing this to a fitness test misses the complexity of her numerous emotions, and condenses them to just arousal, which is foolishly reductionistic. Mere arousal isn’t her goal. Might be his, but she doesn’t care about that. Her behaviour isn’t about him. Women’s multitude of feelings and emotional responses that get labelled fitness tests are oftentimes seen through the eyes of men who primarily care about elevating female arousal. To distill so, is usually so simplistic and incorrect, I could weep at the inanity.
Jeremy says
You are wrong here. While it is, indeed, not a fitness test to hope for a certain behavior, it is indeed a fitness test when the behavior you hope for is the opposite of what you ask for. When you lose attraction to a man specifically because he always says yes to what you suggest. If you didn’t want it, don’t suggest it. Lynx wasn’t saying that she was distancing from this man in the hopes he would break up with her – in fact, she was looking for reasons to stay together. She was hoping he’d grab her by the scruff of her neck and stop saying yes to her. You know, just like her bad old ex used to do. The ex, who was abusive….yet attractive. This man was the antithesis to her, in every way. Dysfunctional in the extreme to be attracted to men who tell you no. Fitness test.
GOD says
As a man, I read this with a lot of laughing. Especially the comment section! xDD
Christine says
There is a balance to be had here. My second husband is a ‘Beta male’. (They definitely make the best husbands by the way), however he was very pro-active in our courtship. He planned things, did all the calling and despite having little money (yes,he’s that artist beta male), he was incredibly generous and masculine in his ‘persual’ of me. You can find a man with the loving qualities of a beta, but who knows how to take charge when dating and makes you feel safe and wanted.