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What’s the truth? Should women ask men out on first dates? Is it true that a man is “really not that into you” if he’s not asking you out?
Thanks!
Danielle
Dear Danielle,
You asked me a question, but you really asked me two different questions which have two different answers:
1) Should women ask out men on first dates?
No. No, they should not. Women asking men on first dates can be taken as aggressive, desperate, and masculine. At the very least, it can signify a loss of power. So I wouldn’t recommend that you ever utter the words, “Would you like to go out with me?” to any men.
This doesn’t contradict anything I’ve said before, because God knows, I’m not an advocate of women acting like helpless, shrinking violets. Not at all. But there’s a difference between asking a man out and getting a man to ask you out. I vote strongly for the latter.
There’s a difference between asking a man out and getting a man to ask you out.
So let’s get this straight:
Women asking men out? No.
Women using all their feminine wiles to get men to ask them out? Yes.
So what are these feminine wiles of which I speak? Besides your everyday, run-of-the-mill flirtation, there are TONS of things a woman can do to aid in her own dating process.
Let’s say you’re at a party and you see a cute guy across the room. Your friend tells you to go up and ask him out. But you’ve read this article and you know that he probably won’t respond to such a direct approach. What are you gonna do? How can you take action to make HIM take action?
So, if you see a man you want to meet, how can you meet him? By putting yourself in the position to meet him. You can cross the room, park yourself seven feet to his diagonal, turn and smile. Now that he’s in your line of sight, he has an opportunity to make eye contact with you. And when men make eye contact with you when you’re smiling, that’s their invitation to come over and introduce themselves.
Result: Woman takes action. Man makes a move. Woman stays in control and keeps her feminine energy.
It’s important to understand this dynamic when we get to Danielle’s next question.
2) Is it true that a man is “really not that into you” if he’s not asking you out?
Yes. Kind of…. See, we men know, and have been conditioned, and may even have the biological imperative, to be the “aggressors”. For better or worse, this is the way society is set up. Men ask out women. We ask them to prom. We ask them to go steady. We ask them if they want to have sex. We ask them if they will marry us. Women are the gatekeepers to what we want. When that energy shifts, it often throws us for a loop.
This is why women shouldn’t push men for sex. Or ask men to commit. Or ask men to marry them. It’s not that they shouldn’t desire these things; it’s that generally, the man asks and the woman says yes/no.
But there are some men who don’t embrace these traditional roles — not because they’re iconoclasts or neo-feminists, but simply because they’re shy or insecure. Unless you give them the key to your heart and half-way unlock the door, they’re never going to get inside. Mostly because they’re afraid of rejection and don’t want to put themselves out there.
If you have the hots for the cute, quiet guy in IT, he may be totally into you, but be too shy to do anything.
So where does this leave a woman with a crush? Depends on the guy. With guys who are alpha male types — confident, secure, good with women — yeah, if he’s not asking you out, he’s just not that into you. Type A men know that they need to ask out women, and are usually adept at doing so. However, if you have the hots for the cute, quiet guy in IT, he may be totally into you, but be too shy to do anything.
That’s when it’s your job to make it easier for him. Not to ask him out, but to make it clear that you’re amenable to being asked out. Being flirtatious, hanging around his desk, joining him for lunch… As long as he knows that his advances will be well-received, he will probably make the advance.
And if he doesn’t?
Just ask him out.
It’s only rejection. Guys deal with it every day.
(And yeah, I’m contradicting myself, but only for shy guys!)
Steve says
You can cross the room, park yourself seven feet to his diagonal, turn and smile
I know I get completely turned off by women who are not 30 degrees from my line of site LOL :). Sorry Evan I couldn’t resist.
Good advice. I’ve had some nice encounters with the woman making the first move, but it is extraordinarily easy for women to overdo it and turn a guy off. I much prefer the come hither signals.
Jennifer says
I often have debates with my girlfriends about this, and I couldn’t agree more with Evan!
Most men understand and accept (with the exception of the shy ones that Evan pointed out) that facing the sting of rejection is a given in the dating game. They hate it, it sucks, but they soldier on and risk it anyway *if they think the woman is worth it*. If the guy sees a woman smiling and flirting and doesn’t ask her out, then he’s either involved or not interested (lots of reasons why that could be). Bottom line, asking the woman out just wasn’t that serious to them because if it was, they would’ve risked rejection and done it. I don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t want to start an association with a man trying to convince him that I’m worth his time if he doesn’t feel that way already, and that’s what a lot of women risk if they openly and agressively pursue men.
Plus, some men are just too poilte (and others too opportunistic) to turn a woman down, and will ultimately take advantage of a situation where they know a woman wants them, even if they could care less about her. Why would a woman set herself up for this kind of dynamic?
I think really shy guys are the exception (somewhat), but there are probably fewer men that fit that definition than some women would like to think.
Krystal says
@Jennifer, I agree with you 100%!
anonymous says
I think a woman can ask a man out only if she’s super butch and the guy is practically half a woman. The problem with women asking some guys out is that they make him feel like she’s wearing the pants, and that sometimes, the guy will get a swollen head and think he’s a player.
But seriously, though, women who ask guys out must be prepared to deal with the sting of rejection. To be honest, sometimes, the most desperate ones are also not the most attractive. The gorgeous ones just have to stare a guy long enough in the eye ans wink at him…
betaman says
This couldn’t be further from the truth, most men approach women confidently who they don’t care about, for me the more I want someone the more nervous I get and it gets impossible to as one out, needless to say im a 35 yr old virgin ! but please don’t think that because he doesn’t ask you out even with all the signals he doesn’t want you chances are if it was me, id be dying inside but wownt be able to say or do anything as I want her so much that my mind goes blanc I stutter and stammer, so because of this I don’t as women out, because I cant and if us beta men do we do it underconfiudently and you reject us anyway, no matter how muh you like someone ive noticed if you cant ask them out confidently they ALWYAYS say no, no matter how much they gave you signals, so giving someone th signals you wownt reect them istn enough for very shy men ! its a terrible possiton for a man to be in because he ends up hating himself for not being abe to ask you out, and its one less chance away from dying alone single forever !
Blue says
Evan, doesn’t this article contradict the advice you gave on “Should Women Write to Men?” https://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/online-dating-tips-advice/should-women-write-to-men/ Why is okay for women to make first contact with men online, but not in person?
Michael Ejercito says
Of course they should. Men are too lazy to even get off the couch to get a beer from the fridge.
S Benjamin says
I despise telephone-only relationships. If a man does not take proactive measures to suggest a meeting after a week to a week-and-a-half of communicating over the telephone I take the initiative and suggest that we meet (though I don’t .suggest where and how). I wish to know as within a reasonable time whether I am attracted to his presence. Why spend weeks talking over the phone and texting back and forth only to find that you do mesh in-person? Only a player would wish to waste time in that way. For me, a romantic relationship is serious business.
Steve says
Jennifer Apr 3rd 2008 at 09:13 am 2
If the guy sees a woman smiling and flirting and doesn’t ask her out, then he’s either involved or not interested (lots of reasons why that could be).
Or he is *shy*, or he is dense to social signals. He could be a great guy, but these things *may* be an indicator of other issues that *some* women might find to be a turn off.
but I don’t want to start an association with a man trying to convince him that I’m worth his time if he doesn’t feel that way already,
Plus, some men are just too poilte (and others too opportunistic) to turn a woman down, and will ultimately take advantage of a situation where they know a woman wants them, even if they could care less about her. Why would a woman set herself up for this kind of dynamic?
A lot of men need to hear that. I wish I heard it when I was young and first left home. I was slightly shy with women at the time, I was raised by political idealists and had similar women for friends. I operated on a set of “shoulds” as defined by what some idealists would have liked to be true, but wasn’t so in social reality.
Eventually I smartened up and learned that people do not do as they say, ESPECIALLY in matters of the heart, dating, sex and romance.
Having been there let me say, guys, you just got to suck it up. It is scary, it sucks, but if you get rejected the sun will still shine on you the next morning and the risk is well worth it because it will eventually pay off.
Evan Marc Katz says
Great point, Blue. But no, it’s not a contradiction. Because the mediums are completely different. Online, you don’t know who’s looking at you, what they’re thinking, who they’re seeing, etc. You can’t afford to be passive because of the variety of options presented to men.
But in real life, if you know this great guy from work? And you have been friends for six months, and he still hasn’t asked you out? He’s probably not gonna ask you out.
Thank you for calling attention to this subtle nuance. Online, YES, ask him out – as long as you’re being coy and flirtatious, rather than over-complimentary. Make him chase you. Which means that it’s pretty much the same advice as this article. You’re writing to him online, but you’re not asking him out. You’re teasing him so he asks YOU out. Therein lies the difference.
BooBear says
So Evan, men are just big pathetic babies who are so fragile they have to have their butts kissed all the time??
Nancy says
What an excellent response. I was finding some of the articles on this site interesting but this is just such incredible retro The Rules style BS. If a man is going to freak out because a woman asks him out, he isn’t worth having. Period.
josie says
In Evan’s defense , who said anything about a man freaking out?
no, the purpose of not asking a guy out is so you can tell who is the seriously interested, commitment – oriented guy with potential, versus some guy who will lazily accept your invitation and treat it as a request to hang out ( meaning, he will likely want to go Dutch on the bill and not really treat you as though you’re on an official date). I’m glad Evan did make the exception for the shy guys, though. In my years of dating, how a guy treats me on those first few dates in usually a strong indicator of potential for a relationship.
betaman says
you think nervousness makes a man not worth going out with ? then there is no point in a shy person ever asking anyone out because they will be nervous
Winsome Maple says
I like shy men. They are usually thinkers and listen well. They are sensitive also. These are all pluses.
Selena says
Well, how does this advice fall into the “Who pays for dates?” deal? It used to be common manners that whomever does the asking should be prepared to do the paying. Some men get irked because the burden of doing the asking falls to them, and thereby the expense. And some women claim they are fine with paying their own way AND their dates, and don’t have a problem asking men out either.
So now Evan, you are telling us the same thing our mother’s and grandmother’s did, “Don’t ask a man out because you will come across as too aggressive or desperate.” Okay, we buy that as a general rule. But does this mean we should offer to pay if we are asked out, or not? And if we don’t (because Hey! He did the asking) then are we not being fair to the poor guys who think we are only out for a free meal/entertainment? Most of us aren’t by the way, but nothing we say convinces the men who have this mentality.
Evan Marc Katz says
https://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/dating-tips-advice/who-pays-for-the-first-date/
Steve says
BooBear Apr 3rd 2008 at 10:46 am 7
So Evan, men are just big pathetic babies who are so fragile they have to have their butts kissed all the time??
BooBear thank you for posting the above quote.
I have found that intelligent, educated and intellectually honest women can often be blind to double standards they hold in regards to women and men. Your quote is a great example to use to illustrate this. I mean this with no sarcasm. Like I said, even cool women do this.
Lets say a woman is in a situation which threatens her sense of femininity in an objectively trivial way, but one that would give most women mildly unpleasant feelings.
A woman joins a previously all male institution and is ordered to have her head shaved just like all of the other men and women.
She will be injured in no way and will be every bit of a woman after the haircut. Other women would not dare to mock her feelings of nervousness at having her hair completely removed and if a man made a comment like “buck up bage, it is not big deal” he would be seen as crass.
However, consideration for a man’s sense of masculinity is not also similarly respected.
Whether you want to say it comes from nature, nurture, or both for most men their psychology is set up to be the initiator in social and sexual situations. Some men are threatened by the reverse while for other men it just feels odd to the point that they would rather deal with another woman.
Bottom line, it feels odd to their sense of masculinity. Instead of respecting ( not necessarily agreeing ) of that, good people like you will feel no problem about mocking or trivializing men’s feelings in this regard.
What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
Deathslayer says
Should Women Ask Men Out on First Dates?
*
Gotta say yes, they should.
Women decide within the first few minutes if they will have sex with you and under what terms……lover (right away) or provider (meal ticket).
And when it comes time to get her number – let her do the work. Always hint that you are interested. Never confirm it. Let HER wonder. Build up the attraction enigma in her. Keep on doing this until she gives in. THEN, you’re in business. She’ll be the one supplicating for your attention. She won’t be in control. She’ll dig
you even more. Now, MAYBE, you can give in some sort of compromise. But only do it when you are sure that she’s bothered enough by you to actually truly want to see you.
You earn a spot on her B-List the minute you ask her digits. Some kind of he digs me signal that goes on in the female brain the minute you ask for her number.
She then starts taking B-List-Joe for granted and we all know the rest of the story
Just remember that men get no status from rejecting women, but women do get status from rejecting men. Sometimes they reject men for sport, to impress their girlfriends, or to satisfy their ego and sense of superiority.
I think there are probably a few women who miss the old days when men weren’t afraid to approach them and be friendly to them, but hey, after a while men learn that it just isn’t worthwhile to be nice to someone who will most likely just be negative to you.
Deathslayer
Deathslayer says
Getting attention is the feminine equivalent of “scoring.”
For your average man, getting inside a woman’s pants is what affirms for him that he’s attractive and desirable. A man who manages to get a woman to get naked with him feels good, because he feels validated.
For women, all it takes is knowing that you want her. That’s it. Once you look at her (or strive not to look at her) in that way that says, “Wow,” she knows that she could have you if she wanted you. It reaffirms for her that her sex is worth something. It reaffirms that when it comes time for her to make her life choice she can demand a high price because she has what men want.
That’s why women lead men on and then give them the cold shoulder. Once you give her that look, you gave her what she was after.
She doesn’t need anything else from you, so she sees no need to continue treating you nicely.
Some women will smile at you across the room, lick their lips, do everything but rip their clothes off, but when you cross the dance floor and say, “Hi! Want to dance?” they say, “With you? Yeah, right.” Why? Simple: the minute you walked across the floor to ask her she had what she wanted. The rest, for her, is academic. She knows that if she’s horny she can have you, but she doesn’t want you.
She just wanted to know that you wanted her, and she’s all done.
Let me make things clear: if women asked men out 50% of the time (which they claim they do but obviously don’t) and tried to interest men (again this absolutely never happens, even if they do strike up a conversation first; they always expect the man to jump through hoops so that MAYBE they will be swayed by his silly antics) – then you would have a basis for complaining that men usually screw women over.
But in reality, men ALWAYS have to pique women’s interest, it is NEVER the other way around.
AS SUCH women 100% forfeit any right to complain.
Here we come up against the inevitable conflict between the male and female social roles and circumstances. Because men are the “designated initiators”, they are the ones who have to take an active role in “finding” that “one”, while women get to sit in their towers and pass judgment and indulge their penchants for cruelty.
The net effect for women has been two-fold. As long as they continue to rely entirely and exclusively on the passive strategy of attraction and abuse the sexual power they have, they are automatically sorting out all but the most aggressive males. Thus their attitudes become self-fulfilling prophesies as they make themselves so obnoxious that any man who is capable of sensitivity and warmth cannot stand to be around them.
Deathslayer
KJ says
I halfway agree.
Yogagurl says
I am sorry for this world view Death slayer. You must have been badly hurt of have been the victim of unkind women.
I am *not* like the women you speak about here. I get no pleasure in rejecting men. I get no pleasure in getting them to like me and then giving them the brush off. I don’t seek ego strokes.
What I seek, and what most women seek, is someone we feel good around, someone we are attracted to and who is attracted to us, someone we have fun with.
I love having a good time with a man. I love flirting with him, being sexy with him, loving and giving. I do NOT relish rejecting any man ever. Never.
Kevin says
Unfortunately there are a lot of nasty , cold hearted women that love nothing more than brutally rejecting guys for ” fun ” , these same types also get free drinks from men all night , then tell the guys to F*** Off !! afterwards. Saw this a lot when working as door staff quite a while back…it also made me wonder if women were actually intrinsically hostile to guys , needless to say I did not see women in a positive light back then as this was a regular occurance.
Selena says
Steve,
Re: Post #10 That was a very good way of explaining it. Very thoughtful.
Michael Ejercito says
Deathslayer,
So how do you manipulate women into wanting to have sex with you?
dadshouse says
I agree with Evan on point #1 – men should ask women out on a first date. It’s emasculating for a man if the woman is the aggressor. Once your dating, it doesn’t matter who suggests an activity. But first date, the man must ask.
In point #2, I didn’t like how you said that alpha males are “good with women.” This is NOT necessarily the case. And in fact, it is often NOT the case and can be a huge problem in a relationship.
Alpha males are good at approaching women, and when you’re in a bar, it’s the type-A’s who typically get the phone number or date, simply because they were more confident in that particular environment.
But in terms of how they treat woman, a lot of alpha males just don’t get it. They often treat women like dirt. (I’m NOT talking about all alpha males, just a lot of them.) These are the men who feed off their own ego power trips, suffer from narcissism, and demand that the woman look up to them like a hero. Those relationships can be very disfunctional.
In the longterm, type-B guys often treat women FAR better than type-A’s. In this respect, it’s the type-B guys who are “good with women.”
Lisa says
Right dadshouse on point but the type b guys are too afraid to approach or ask out attractive women. So attractive women like me only get approached and hit on and asked out by alpha males who treat us like crap cause they are mostly narcissists and players. We try to get in the sight line of the type b guys but they are afraid or just don’t get it so without directly approaching them and asking them out which by the way as a very alpha female with a high power job great salary and degree I am happy to do I am stuck dating jerks. I suppress the underlying innate urge to go speak to these men or to ask men out that I interact with and may be interested in and up my flirting and express my femininity but short of hitting the dude over the head or having my friend pass them a note high school style they have no clue I’m into them. Why because they don’t think a girl that looked like me every would be. How do I know well sometimes I’ve just ignored Evan and asked. I digress if I don’t ask out type b males I would be relegated to dating type a guys who treat me horrible and use me for sex and end up angry and bitter which is why you see a lot of attractive single women.
smartcookie says
okay, so if you give the signals, he comes over and talks to you for an hour and then doesn’t ask for your number, is it okay to give him your number?
Michael Ejercito says
I have no problem with average-looking women; I have been interested in average-looking women before.
A woman’s behavior has a lot to do with how attractive she is.
Michael Ejercito says
Smartcookie,
Of course you should give him your number if you feel comfortable around him.
A-L says
What about the average looking woman? The one who is neither a size 2 nor a size 16, not as pretty as Charlize Theron in real-life nor as unattractive as Charlize in Monster? Real-life Charlize undoubtedly can stand at a 30 degree angle 7′ from a man and have him running over in a heartbeat. But for those of us who are not drop-dead stunning, we attract men with other qualities. Our intelligence, caring/nurturing nature, adventuresome spirit, or whatever else we bring to the table. But a man can’t tell anything about these internal features by just looking. So, back to my original question; how does the average woman get men to pick her up?
Yogagurl says
With your feminine spirit. Actually it’s an energy that can be felt. It’s a open, loving, friendly, kind, compassionate energy. You can look up more attributes of the feminine women. This can be sensed in a woman partly by how she dresses (and it helps a lot to give off signals you are fem in hair and clothes) but also how you interact, what you say.
Kevin says
You are spot on here , too many women are masculine & also lack the compassion you speak of here. We need a lot women like you as you ” get it “. It’s polarity at work ( which Evan has covered ) feminine energy attracts masculinity & vice versa , neuter attracts nothing , as there is no polarity. Please spread the word to your fellow females !!!
Willowandy says
I’m surprised that would be a problem for you or the women you describe if you show those qualities to the men in question.
But if it is, they are either not interested in those things (their loss) or not aware you are interested. Some, including me, are not blind to unspoken signals, but certainly not very sensitive. So I will be direct with women and yes, many don’t like that, but that is who I am and I prefer that in return, so it is not as bad as it seems.
If somebody not knowing you are interested or asking them subtly if they want to go out with you is a turnoff for you, then you have your answer.
If not, you will find out whether he is interested.
Collins says
I firmly believe that in this era of equality, courage to ask for a 1st date (or any date thereafter) shouldn’t have a lick to do with gender. The other year I used to see a gal who was enough into me to ask ME for a date, though she let me decide the venue (& yes, we did split the cost). She’s out of my life now (for unrelated reasons) but I do admire the proactiveness of women like her. It also makes my day to hear/read once in a blue moon of a woman proposing marriage to a man. It gives me faith that in terms of equality, the social front will slowly but surely catch up to the career front.
Nancy says
Thanks for your response. It’s good to know there are some men secure enough in their masculinity that a woman expressing interest in him directly doesn’t scare him. It’s not “nature” that makes men feel that way, in spite of all the evolutionary psychology types pushing that BS – it’s culture. And articles like this only enforce such backwards views.
Evan Marc Katz says
This isn’t “Rules” game playing. Nor does this have anything to do with being secure in one’s masculinity. It’s that masculine guys all got the memo when we were kids: if you like a girl, you approach her and ask her out. If you don’t approach her and ask her out, you probably aren’t interested. The men who didn’t get this memo tend to be the shiest, most insecure, and least masculine men. So you can ask away, Nancy: just don’t expect much from the process.
Lisa says
Evan Nancy and Yogagurl I think it depends on the type of guy and the attractiveness level of the girl. For example an alpha male who tends to be self confident or cocky will usually pick up on subtle flirting and ask you out if he’s interested no matter what your level of attractiveness and if you ask him out that may turn him off. But a beta male or one with less self confidence particularly if faced with a very attractive female will usually not pick up on subtle hints or any hints. Maybe if he perceives the female to be in his league he will but if not no way you will need to ask him out and this will be effective and Yogagurl it has worked for me. I could walk in their sight line wink smile giggle flirt till the cows come home and they have no clue because they never think a girl that looked like me would be interested and I know because they tell me. Meanwhile if I even so much as glance at an alpha they pounce so it’s all relative.
Yogagurl says
Nancy has your being the initiator ever brought positive results? Why not just flirt subtley to let him know of your interest?
Sarah G says
DeathSlayer — you ride the bus (see yesterday’s post). I don’t believe it that there are a lot of lip-licking women on the bus, turning down your suave advances.
Actually, I met my former fiance on a bus. He was reading “Atlas Shrugged” and I said, “Great book,” b/c someone had told me it was a great book. I hadn’t actually finished reading it. He sat down next to me and asked me out almost immediately. He said that he always carried that book out in the open, hoping that someone would comment on it. I was the only one who ever did. Perhaps I should have finished reading the book. Maybe I wouldn’t have said anything. We broke up a month after getting engaged. Thank god I dodged that bullet.
Moral of the story: Sisters–if our assigned role in this dating/mating ritual is the “come hither” stuff, we have to make sure that we are “come hithering” in a way that serves our higher purposes. Not any old bloke will do.
Note: I am doing eHarmony and I love it. Lots of cute guys giving me their numbers. Called one tonight at his request but he didn’t pick up. After reading this post — maybe I shouldn’t have called. He said he would be “chivalrous” and call me, but I don’t want all these guys having my number. Also, he was all complimentary in a sexy way about my cute pics — not sure I like that approach. Maybe he’s a player?
Lance says
@Dadshouse, I like your analysis there. Even from a social artist perspective, it’s commonly accepted that beta guys make better LTR partners and providers (ie married). They’re the safe choice. Alphas are the aggressive sex fulfillers and whatnot. I think this is changing though, as more and more safe guys are getting into social arts. I think EMK would be a good example here (Evan, I’m not calling you beta); he’s a good guy who’s obviously studied social arts and thus is well rounded. Evan, if I’m off there you can just call me a dickhead.
Back to the original topic. Women give the signals, men do the asking out. I would like to ask if any female readers of this blog have ever asked a guy out, and if so, how did it go? I’ve never flat out been asked out, but I’ve occasionally received unsolicited signals, whereby I’ll take the next step and either reject or ask her out.
Selena says
Lance-
I’ve never asked someone out first. Not because of some ‘rule’ or whatever, just that when I found someone I thought I might be interested in, THEY asked me out. Prior to reading this thread, I thought it was perfectly acceptable to invite a man to join me somewhere. I had the impression guys LIKED being asked out and wished women would do it more often. Guess not. Oh well, flirting your way into a date isn’t unpleasant. And if he doesn’t make a move, then you just conclude he isn’t interested and you saved yourself some trouble.
Bubbles says
Guys do like being asked out or I do if it would finally happen and I wish they would do it more often sucks being 43. But I’m not over the hill yet if I live to be 99 like my one great uncle. Emasculating? Guys that feel that way need weed or something lol.
homme says
Evan’s advice is good for old-school women who are looking for old-school men. There are many of both in the world, and the population of them is only slowly diminishing. But, once you go beyond the this “women’s phones are only for receiving calls” and “men are from venus and women are from mars” mentality, you never turn back, because your relationships work so much better. Women and men are different in many ways, but calling for a date, buying presents, driving a car, etc. aren’t those ways.
Deathslayer says
Deathslayer,
So how do you manipulate women into wanting to have sex with you?
*
Same way they ‘manipulate’ you into buying them things.
Understand, women use sex to get relationships, men use relationships to get sex.
DeathSlayer you ride the bus (see yesterday’s post). I don’t believe it that there are a lot of lip-licking women on the bus, turning down your suave advances.
*
I guess I probably shouldn’t read things like ‘Why Men Earn More’, ‘The No-Nonsense Guide Guide to Women, Death Note manga, The Art of War, Path of the Assassin, PC World Magazine and The Average American Male.
Funny thing is, more women are amazed that they always see me reading something and the comment on how much I like to read. They keep asking me had I read this or that and I comment solely on the book. I never make advances on women…it’s too dangerous these days to get things misconstrued and besides, I read for knowledge and enjoyment, not to impress a woman with my literary choices.
Deathslayer
dadshouse says
Sarah G – love the book reading approach! I see so many attractive women come into a coffee house and immediately pull out their cell phone and start texting. Should I walk up and say “is thattext message any good?”, or “cool phone!” Um, … no. But if she’s reading a book, I can totally approach her. Even if I haven’t read the book, I can ask if it’s any good. Books are great props to invite conversation. Add some “come hither” glances, and it’s even better.
Steve says
I’ve often noticed that when I am asking for advice it isn’t that I am seeking information I couldn’t have come up with myself. I am looking for assurances against some fear that I have.
If you are a woman and a man isn’t asking you out you have nothing to lose by asking him out. That is you don’t have any dates to lose.
You do have your self esteem to lose if you get rejected. There are mountains of books and “therapies” on how to deal with that. At the very least you will have better friendships with your guy friends because you will be able to relate to them on a very big issue for men.
I’ve seen books for women on amazon on how to drop more obvious “come hither” signals and how to initiate a date with a guy in less direct, less masculine ways.
Steve says
A-L Apr 3rd 2008 at 03:34 pm 17
What about the average looking woman? The one who is neither a size 2 nor a size 16, not as pretty as Charlize Theron in real-life nor as unattractive as Charlize in Monster?
A-L;
I’m an average looking man who likes average looking women. I’m not alone. I don’t think there are that many of us who are seriously holding out for Charlize.
If by “average” you mean a slim body and as much trouble to appearance as the “average” woman devotes herself I would say your appearance is not an issue.
Steve says
and Charlize isn’t all that great. She can’t make a single decision on her own. I wish she would stop texting me every hour on the hour 🙂
Steve says
smartcookie Apr 3rd 2008 at 02:58 pm 16
okay, so if you give the signals, he comes over and talks to you for an hour and then doesn’t ask for your number, is it okay to give him your number?
** YES **
There is a huge difference between something like that and approaching him directly the way a man would approach a woman.
bringwedding says
if a man doesn’t ask a women out first dates, than probably he probably “not that into you”, but don’t you think by being brave and asking him out for the first date might be her chance to make him get to know her better ?
Who knows that might change his mind about her ?
BooBear says
Steve, What makes you so sure I am female? Perhaps I am a man whose penis does not shrivel when I am asked out by a woman? Again, pathetic.
Michele says
Steve, your post # 26……..and those “books” all claim to have the answer(s) to a blissful life forever. Their marketing efforts certainly provide incredible creativity for the desperate.
Yet another approach is that some of the online dating sites are offering FREE extended memberships for those who don’t find Ms/Mr Right, w/in a specified time frame. Seems rather clinical to me.
AND……..then the couple finally connects. Relationship issues surface and back to amazon to “read up” on how to correct those problems. Perhaps even decide that counseling might be an option, when in reality a good number of “counselors” are riddled with difficult lives themselves
What a tangled web life becomes………:-)
My posture will continue to remain positive, try to enjoy each day and take things with the proverbial grain of salt (that would be sea salt).
BeenThruTheWars says
I agree with everything Evan advised, with the exception of asking out “shy” guys. Far better to “put out the signals” that you are interested and see if he responds. If he doesn’t… move on. You’re wasting your time. He either A) doesn’t find you attractive (just because he’s shy doesn’t mean he has no “type”), B) is already in a relationship he doesn’t advertise at work, C) is gay and also may not advertise that, D) any one of a dozen other reasons he doesn’t want to ask you out, and won’t. People tend to do what they want to do, and not do what they don’t want to do.
Case in point. When I was in my twenties, there was a “shy guy” in the department of the big ad agency where I worked. (It turned out he had almost zero dating experience — he was a 27-year-old virgin). I thought he was cute in an intense/nerdy kind of way. I knew it would be kinda icky if I asked him out directly, so instead, when the whole department was out celebrating someone’s birthday or something at a bar one night, I mentioned within his hearing that I was dying to see the new Woody Allen movie! Had anyone seen it, was it any good? The next morning, he walked into my office at 9:01 a.m., helped himself to some candy from my candy jar, and stated very matter-of-factly, “So: last night you said you wanted to see ‘Purple Rose of Cairo’… it’s playing at the such and thus theater, would you like to go see it with me this Friday after we have dinner someplace?”
See? Shy, inexperienced guy asks out woman he’s attracted to ALL ON HIS OWN! All he needed was some encouragement/smiling/light flirting (appropriate for a business setting) and an “idea” of what might please her on a date.
I’m in Mensa and when I was single, I dated a lot of guys in that organization. Trust me, male Mensans are not, by and large, Captain Suave in their personal lives. Lots of tech guys, engineers, IT types, etc. who work in mostly male environments and have very little contact with women. When they are in comfortable surroundings with females they’re attracted to, they have NO problem asking someone they like if they would like to check out the Star Wars convention downtown that weekend and maybe go out for Ethiopian food after.
Etc.
So in this one instance, I must respectfully disagree with Evan’s advice. But the rest of his advice was dead on (as usual). Heed it, and you will weed out the guys who really aren’t that interested in dating you without a single ouchie; and you will invite into your life the guys who ARE interested. It really is that simple. I don’t think of it as “old-fashioned” or outdated as much as I think of it as “classic, tried-and-true male/female dynamics” when you are dealing with two emotionally healthy people who aren’t manipulators or game-players.
JB says
^^^^^^^^
I’m so sick of seeing women on their cell phone when they’re alone.
I always walk up and open with “how come whenever I SEE a woman alone she’s talking on her cell phone but whenever I call a woman’s cell phone she never answers” …LOL !
Which isn’t true but it’s a great opener !
I’ve been dating 30 yrs, I can count the times on 2 hands when a woman has asked ME out on a first date (excluding weddings & such).
Most of the time I can remember it was “lower status” women meaning women I wouldn’t persue anyway. Although I’m flattered, I usually gracefully decline. I’ll do the asking out. Thank you very much.
If you want to email me first online or wink. I have no problem with that. 😉
Steve says
BooBear Apr 4th 2008 at 09:17 am 32
Steve, What makes you so sure I am female? Perhaps I am a man
I wouldn’t be surprised
Steve says
Michele;
I wouldn’t make it a mission to go through the self help books and blogs with a fine toothed comb either. If you want to ask a guy out just be less forward about it than a man. Use your own judgment. Experiment.
Steve says
BeenThruTheWars Apr 4th 2008 at 09:30 am 34
Case in point. When I was in my twenties, there was a shy guy in the department of the big ad agency where I worked. (It turned out he had almost zero dating experience he was a 27-year-old virgin).
Since I have never asked shy men out I was wondering what your opinion is on my intuition that guys you have to ask out come with issues the average woman would not want to deal with?
Li-Ann says
I am with Evan 100% on this one.
I totally respect those who commented who would like women to ask men out, but my life time of dating experience tells me that this doesn’t work in practice
As Evan often says, he wishes it were different, but the reality is that most men lose respect or interest when you ask them out. Suddenly you are suspect in the eyes of the man. Is something wrong with you? Why are you so available? Does no one else want you? Are you desperate? Again, I stress, I wish it was not this way, and I wish it could work both ways, but it doesn’t.
I have found that if you even give the slightest hint of being too eager – it more often than not works against you. It would be nice to think that the men out there appreciate women doing the work, but deep down most don’t once it actually happens. I recognize that there are some men on this board who do like women asking them out, and I respect and salute that, but they are in the minority of what I’ve experienced out there.
Steve says
Li-Ann Apr 4th 2008 at 11:57 am
Again, I stress, I wish it was not this way, and I wish it could work both ways, but it doesn’t.
Isn’t it sad and tiring that you do have to stress that? I know, “welcome to Planet Earth”.
It seems like many problems in life are about people being slow to accept that a rock is a rock and not something else.
It seems like Evan’s business is mostly about getting people to accept then work with reality rather than giving out straight information.
I guess the name of the blog would “Advice From An Unemployed Single Dating Expert” if people could work with reality from the get-go on difficult issues.
hunter says
To selena,
I remember being clueless in my 20’s and 30’s. Women come up with subtle messages, and unless you are a good looking man, we may get a subtle message, oh, say, maybe once a year. Average looking men don’t get trained by mountains of women like the good looking men do….
hunter says
to Selena,
I guess what I am saying is, give the “dork”, or short, fat, bald man a second chance, he might wake up and see your invitation.
hunter says
To beenthruwars,
Mensa does attract herds of men, and mostly professional. The few women mensans are attractive also.
Lance says
@JB: That’s a nice little opener, I’ll file it away. I have an opener for women who walk around and text: “Hey, I know you’re texting me, but I’m standing right here.” Something along those lines. Works great on college girls.
Here’s a Brad P phone/text opener: Send yourself a text that says, “I think you’re hot, please introduce yourself.” Then, when you see a girl texting, walk up to her, act delighted, and show her the text. Say something clever and charming.
I just remembered, I HAVE been asked out by a woman, two weeks ago in fact. She’s a very nice girl who asked me to go watch a softball game with her. I would have said yes, but unfortunately we work together and I have a rule that I don’t date co-workers. It’s too bad, because she’s cute. It did take me by surprise, but I don’t recall losing my frame or feeling emasculated.
I’m still on the fence on this one…
Selena says
hunter-
I’m confused. Which post of mine are you addressing?
I’ve dated all types of men at one time or another–short, bald, dork, over-sized body builder, really different “types”. One thing I’ve learned is that the more I get to know someone, and LIKE them, the more attractive they become to me, whatever my initial impression was about their looks.
I was shy as a child, into my early 20’s to an extent. Now in my 40’s I’m outgoing (go figure), so “my thing” (persona?) whatever you want to call it, is open and friendly. I’ve never asked anyone out first (yet) because they have always beaten me to the punch. We’ll see what may happen this year–last 11 mos. I have spent ‘seasonal’, haven’t decided what city I want to settle into yet.
You?
KAREN says
I am definitely listening to Evan’s advice on this one. I am always complimented on my looks, my figure and my charismatic personality. I also receive many dinner date offers.
Therefore, with all this confidence, I decided to ask a very nice, very handsome business associate out. I had a few discussions with this man during the past few months and we really seemed to enjoy each other’s company. He did appear to be a bit shy so I decided to ask him out. Wow! I was so very embarrassed when he turned me down. I was utterly speechless as he explained why. Unfortunately, for me, he is a shy gay man. As confident as I am, I shall never ever ask a man out again! I now know how men feel when they are turned down by women.
Yes, this has changed my outlook on dating. I tend to accept dates now from men that I normally would not otherwise date due to their height, weight or looks. As long as they are sincere, honest and have a great sense of humor I date them!! See what happens when the shoe is on the other foot!!
Deathslayer says
WHY don’t women ask men out? They don’t want to face the same rejection men get for asking them out. What rejection is that?
THIS:
A rant from a friend:
“Why I don’t speak to you anymore” and it’s addressed to women in general.
I don’t speak to you anymore. And I know you find this unthinkable. In your mind, what young single guy wouldn’t leap at the invitation to be a bit player in the drama that is your life, in which you’re the lead actress?
After all, you’re young, female, attractive, sexually nubile, maybe even single. Aren’t all guys supposed to leap at that?
Yet, I refuse to speak to you.
What you’re seeing is the pinnacle in the evolution of an attitude created and reinforced by thousands of minor transgressions. Each a grain of sand in size, but so numerous, they collectively create a mountain.
I don’t speak to you because I’ve tried before.
I’ve been genuinely interested in your life. Yet, when I ask questions in an attempt to build a bridge of friendship between us, to seek a common ground upon which we can both meet, I receive a glassy-eyed look as if I’m bothering you. As if, deep inside, you’re screaming
“Why are you bothering me, won’t you please shut up and leave?”
Eventually, I learned that the common ground is neither there, nor is a place upon which I wish to walk. So, I quit building bridges.
I don’t speak to you because I’ve tried before. I’ve tried to develop interests in the things that interest you. No matter how insipid, trivial, or dull I find the stories of your friends I’ve never met, of people I do not know, of things on TV that have no interest in watching, I try to make the effort to learn about these things.
Because what interests you is a part of who you are, and if you are going to matter to me, I’d like to see what you like. Exposure to new things is part of growing as a person, and each person can learn from the other. A cross-pollenization of ideas.
However, you never seem to be interested in my life. You behave as if my life is a bother to you.
You’re not interested in finding out who I am. I’m supposed to be off in the shadows, only to step into the limelight when the central drama needs me to support you.
When my time has passed, it’s back into the shadows I go, replaced with someone else. So, I quit trying to learn from you. After all, trying to drive the wrong way down a one-way street is as foolish as the experience is nerve-wracking.
I don’t speak to you anymore because you’re no different than anyone else. You’re not unique anymore. There’s nothing special about you. The colors may vary, but you dress the same as everyone else. The names and faces of the other bit-actors and actresses in the central drama that is your life may be different, but the plots the same. You’re no different than a low-budget porno movie. Any novelty you may have is purely superficial, the substance is the same. Forgive me if I leave early, I’ve seen this movie before, I know how it ends, and it’s never worth the price of admission.
So, I refuse to speak to you anymore. It doesn’t surprise me why you do not understand why I do not speak to you, though it does astonish me that you find my silence odd.
Perhaps, you mistake the noise that emanates from you for my voice.
Perhaps it’s because you’re so busy communicating you never bother to listen for a response. What ever the underlying cause for your lack of comprehension, one thing remains clear, what you have to say simply does not matter to me anymore.
Deathslayer
Sarah G says
DS: Here’s a checklist for when you approach a woman you do not know/are interested in.
1) Have you bathed and washed your hair today?
2) Have you brushed and flossed recently?
3) Is your hair cut in an attractive and not scary style?
4) Have you hidden the PC Magazine in your backpack?
5) Have you left your backpack at home?
6) Did you smile sincerely and address the woman in a cordial tone?
If you answered “no” to any or all of the above, you might get the response(s) described in your post.
Just a thought. From one of the few people on this board who finds you amusing and not a complete turn-off.
5) Ha
hunter says
to Selena,
There is a role reversal, as people mature. Women lose their shyness and men become less aggressive.
starthrower68 says
I agree wholeheartedly with the poster waaaayyyy above that said she doesn’t want to have to convince a man to be interested in her. To that I say, AMEN my sister! I believe it’s the man’s job to pursue and the woman’s job to be open and graciously receive what he offers. I don’t mean she should be a gold-digger, bleed him dry, or anything like that. However, I do realize there are exceptions to every rule, so if any of you girls here have tried it and been successful, way to go!
hunter says
to Sarah G,
Good list, thanks..
BeenThruTheWars says
>> Since I have never asked shy men out I was wondering what your opinion is on my intuition that guys you have to ask out come with issues the average woman would not want to deal with?
Steve (post 38)
BeenThruTheWars says
Steve,
Guys you have to ask out are guys who aren’t interested enough in a woman to ask her out themselves. That’s really all one needs to know, isn’t it?
You never really know what kind of baggage or issues your date has until you’ve been seeing them exclusively for a while. Unless they are truly psycho and it’s all right out there in the open for the whole world to see! I’ve dated very outgoing men and very shy men, as well as men in between; and have not noticed that one personality type vs. another had the red flag market cornered.
Steve says
Sarah G Apr 5th 2008 at 09:37 pm 49
4) Have you hidden the PC Magazine in your backpack?
Hey! I work in technology too! LOL! :). I can’t deny it Sarah there really are under-socialized people in IT. That being written, one of the reasons I went into programming was all of the cool people I met who were in the field. Seems like most people in IT I met are at one extreme or the other. Either they have all of their shit together or they are a basket case.
I’ve noticed that it is common for the latter group to cling to the belief that they are special. Smarter than other people, misunderstood geniuses, etc ( they really aren’t ). The ironic thing is that belief holds them back socially, keeping them miserable and they don’t see it. The dirty end of the “special” stick is that they believe they lack something ordinary people have which prevents them from connecting with others. If they could accept that fact that they ordinary people, they would go out, socialize, take their lumps from their mistakes, form rewarding relationships, get happier and move on.
cheryl says
ok my story is a bit long but here it goes…
I really like this bouncer at my favourite club cos he’s always been very friendly and funny to me so one day i decided to ask for his number (cos i was drunk enough to, normally i would be too scared to), anyway he gave me his number right away and told me to call the next day cos he wont be working. Later he asked me if im really going to call him i didn’t give him a straight answer so he asked for my number. a few days later, we talked on the phone and he said we should grab coffee, but i was too busy so i said i’ll see you at the club on friday probably. so on friday he approached me and spend most of the night talking to me and he asked me out to dinner with his friends the next day. he told me when he’s getting off work, when he would call, and when and where dinner will be…and guess what….he Never called. why the hell would someone waste so much time if he’s not interested….does this have anything to do with me approaching him first?
KAREN says
To Cheryl:
Bouncers will be Bouncers! They all behave very interested in you at first. You must realize that many many women approach them all the time. In essence, they have a vast choice of women to pick from. In this case, possibly, he decided to play games with another flower from the garden. However, “don’t sweat the small stuff” (: Count yourself lucky that this encounter didn’t go any further. In other words “leave the bouncers alone because they always bounce”!! Much luck to you in the future!! Always Enjoy Life!!
hunter says
to beenthruwars,
If we define a shy person as one who is unaware of his own power,
you might have a point there, about asking shy men out and having to deal with issues the average woman may not want to. How interesting….
hunter says
to steve
There is truth in your words! Undersocialized people!,,LOL! I love it!…They are out there!….
Might I add to that, relationship challenged, uninformed, etc. It is sad that they are this way. They no longer have to be that Way!…..I think most are unaware, that there is so much relationship info, going around, especially on the internet!……
Deathslayer says
DS: Here’s a checklist for when you approach a woman you do not know/are interested in.
1) Have you bathed and washed your hair today?
*
Yes. I’m still ugly, but I smell good.
2) Have you brushed and flossed recently?
*
Yes, having only one tooth makes that chore easy.
3) Is your hair cut in an attractive and not scary style?
*
Define ‘scary’
4) Have you hidden the PC Magazine in your backpack?
*
No. Actually more women ask me if I’m into computers, give me their email or phone number to help them with a computer problem.
5) Have you left your backpack at home?
*
Why would I do that…It contains my tools, including the claw hammer. Consider it an alignment tool.
6) Did you smile sincerely and address the woman in a cordial tone?
*
Yes I did smile…sadly she mistook my smile as one of a psychopath on a rampage and left me alone. I get that a lot. Something about wearing all black, tinted black glasses and a look that has made people say they don’t want to meet me in a dark alley.
If you answered no to any or all of the above, you might get the response(s) described in your post.
*
Actually my real problem is making time to even talk to a woman…making money on computers is more fun.
Just a thought. From one of the few people on this board who finds you amusing and not a complete turn-off.
5) Ha
*
No offense taken.
Deathslayer
downtowngal says
I’m totally w Evan on this one. I’ve often heard guys say, ‘gee, I wish a woman would ask ME out for once’ but truth is, that same guy would be the one pursuing a woman he likes.
And I agree with BeenThroughtheWars, even the shy guys will muster up the courage to ask a girl out. He might need more encouragement but he’s still a guy. I had a boyfriend who was a very shy introvert but was very aggressive in pursuing me and very expressive, wrote amazing love notes; and I knew he was sincere as he wasn’t a player.
I think guys get turned on by asking a women out as it’s a very masculine thing to do, just as I get turned on if a guy asks me out. Even if I’m not into the guy I respect him; likewise, if a woman directly asks out a guy I think he loses respect for her.
vino says
Should Women Ask Men Out on First Dates?
Yes. DS has some points.
“Getting attention is the feminine equivalent of scoring.
He’s got that nailed. “For women, all it takes is knowing that you want her. That’s it. . . That’s why women lead men on and then give them the cold shoulder. Once you give her that look, you gave her what she was after.
“She doesn’t need anything else from you, so she sees no need to continue treating you nicely.”
“She just wanted to know that you wanted her, and she’s all done.”
Funny thing is that the coolest women I meet are the ones who initiate contact with me. Since I don’t care if I date anyone, including them, it’s intriguing to them. When women who are used to being pursued aren’t, it takes them aback. Why? They know you cannot be controlled, as DS describes. They like this ‘challenge’ since most men they meet aren’t.
Hot Alpha Female says
I really think that guys that think its OK when a girls asks them on a date don’t really know what it going on.
Guys are build for a little bit of a challenge. Its not a logical thing. Its a irrational inbuilt thing.
Just how a girl can be attracted to a guy and not know why. A guy is inevitability much more attracted to a girl who lets him do the chasing.
Simple as that
Hot Alpha Female
http://www.hotalphafemale.blogspot.com
hunter says
Another factor to consider…..if a man is fighting depression, he will, most likely, never ask a woman out…
vino says
“A guy is inevitability much more attracted to a girl who lets him do the chasing.”
Huh? Girls who sit back & expect the girl to do all of the work are simply not worth the effort. Nothing like starting out prostrating yourself to another. Nonsensical.
vino says
Made a typo.
“expect the girl” should be expect the guy.
Multitasking not strong suit.
Michele says
Hunter…..your #64 post.
Depression can be cured. Sometimes the meds are a necessary element to do so. How do I know? They were my crutch after a bitter divorce. Am OK now and back to my positive (often times) idealistic/liberal self.
hunter says
to Michele,
There is a new therapy going around, I believe it is called, cognitive behavioral, works without meds, most men won’t even do that…
cinnamon says
to vino,
I do see the points in your’s and DS s reasoning . From my personal point of view I think there is one more aspect that might need considering. If a woman shows you interest in any way or even initiates contact with you and you give her an impression that you don’t care if you date her or not, then there is a big chance the woman will conclude that you’re not that into her. I would like to underline that this is not a matter of the amount of effort or power in the relation, these should be more or less balanced in my opinion. It’s a matter of letting someone know that their interest is being reciprocated.
Especially if you’re looking for a girl who is feminine, the chance that she will actively pursue a man after she started to suspect that he’s not into her is very small
JerseyGirl says
“Just remember that men get no status from rejecting women, but women do get status from rejecting men. Sometimes they reject men for sport, to impress their girlfriends, or to satisfy their ego and sense of superiority.”
—————————————————————————–
Neither myself, or any of my girlfriends reject men for “sport”. We have however, rejected men because we were just not attracted back and did not want to lead him on. If these area the type of women you keep encountering, then you need to look at yourself and why you are driven to be attracted to the same type.
As for the intial question. I think typically men should ask women out. Just the natural course of nature between men and women. But I will also argue that men are not always so good at picking up signals and women are not always good at giving good signals. Sometimes men are very literal and straight forward in the sense that a coy smile doesn’t always give them the hint. Sometimes, a woman thinks she is being obvious and giving many signals but she really isn’t doing anything that they guy really reads as interest. I don’t think people always realize what message they are giving and I certainly don’t think people always interupt other people’s messages clearly. I would bet there are a huge number of men and women out there that were interested in each other but never came together because of mixed signals.
hunter says
to jerseygirl,
you said, ‘I bet there are a large number of men and women out there, that, never met because of mixed signals,” I agree with you on that one….but most of us know the problem, and have known for years, question is, “do you have a solution?”
vino says
I do see the points in JG’s and cinn’s posts, particularly JG’s regarding missed signals and opportunities. My thing is if ladies want equality across the board societally speaking (job access, equal pay for equal work, etc.), it also applies in this area too. Simply put, if ladies can do everything men can, they should in the dating arena also.
I’d also see if I can get a few responses to this question – Why, specifically, do you ladies prefer that men make all of the moves?
Enough about what SHOULD be. The reality is that most guys are not great at picking up any but the most obvious signals from women as a green light to initiate contact/flirting. The further reality is that guys who are truly interested in meeting someone will have to initiate more, and get over any rejection fears they have of doing so.
JerseyGirl says
If I did, I would be married to the man of my dreams right now. 🙂
missy says
Vino: “Why, specifically, do you ladies prefer that men make all of the moves?”
Evolutionary psychology – the deeply ingrained, unconscious attraction response by a woman to a man who appears to be able to lead effectively. Probably doesn’t stand up to reason in today’s day and age, but people can’t help being pulled by what they’re automatically drawn to.
Thick forearms, meaty chest and a nice bulge in his jeans doesn’t hurt either. 😉
cinnamon says
“Why, specifically, do you ladies prefer that men make all of the moves?”
Probably you’ll get as many different reasons as there are women who prefer that. For me, making the first moves goes somehow with two traits that I value in men, i.e. being responsible and protective. I really do not see this as an opposition to wishing job access or equal pay for equal work…
vino says
Missy: ” . . . and a nice bulge in his jeans doesn’t hurt either.”
– As opposed to a nasty bulge? 😉
I don’t know that I agree it is ‘evolutionary psychology’ so much as societal conditioning. Men are conditioned they should do it and women to expect it.
I’m going to be a bit argumentative with cinn – I see a flaw in your reasoning. If you or any woman can do everything a man can do in society (this is the key), not just work, then you can also assume the responsibilities of initiating contact with someone you fancy.
As I see it women expecting guys to do all of the pursuing is a bit disingenuous. On the one hand, ladies can go out & slay the dragons in the working world just like the guys, but in dating, they’re suddenly seeking to be pursued like some shrinking violets. This is my point about picking and choosing responsibilities they don’t like.
Being responsible & protective? I don’t understand how me walking up to you to flirt with you represents that. Also, if women can do everything I can do, they can protect themselves, and do not need a man to do it. If you’re responsible enough to do the same things I do in the working world, you are responsible enough to go talk to a guy.
My issue is that women in general like to have it both ways – Equality at work, but treat me like a delicate flower 100 years ago, when women did little proactive work in courting/mating.
If you want to be equal, then be equal. Go talk to that guy. Ask him out. As an equal, you are equally responsible for dating and finding someone. If you don’t talk to him, someone else will.
frau kluger als wein says
Vino: “My thing is if ladies want equality across the board societally speaking (job access, equal pay for equal work, etc.), it also applies in this area too.”
**************
Men and women should have equal rights, yes. Equal rights should not be confused with psychologically sameness. A preference for the man making the first move could be lumped into the same category as liking shopping, shoes & makeup – a tendency exhibited far more strongly in women, but one which does not make them any less entitled to equal paying jobs.
Furthermore, there are no laws in effect barring a woman from asking a man for a date. So you could say even here male/female equality remains intact. It just so happens that males choose to exercise the right to solicit dates more frequently than females as a societal trend.
For the record, I see nothing wrong with a woman making the first move if she can pull it off smoothly enough. Just like any man. But if the assertion here is: “Women’s want justice in the workplace, therefore they should also want to be the initiator in mating matters”, my response is “Not necessarily.”
Btw, specious arguments like Vino’s above aren’t exactly a competitive advantage for a man in the workplace. Lmao.
vino says
Frau:
“Equal rights should not be confused with psychologically sameness. A preference for the man making the first move could be lumped into the same category as liking shopping, shoes & makeup – a tendency exhibited far more strongly in women, but one which does not make them any less entitled to equal paying jobs.”
No one is saying it is psychological sameness. I certainly did not. One could also say that a woman’s preference for lack of initiation is
“Furthermore, there are no laws in effect barring a woman from asking a man for a date.”
– What does that have to do with anything? I bet most women would welcome that law, in any event.
“So you could say even here male/female equality remains intact.”
– It does in theory, not in practice. If this thread indicates anything, it’s that equal women want to be catered to in the dating arena (come talk to me 1st, ask for my #, initiate the call, ask me out, make the plan, take care of the arrangements, pick me up, take me there pay for the date..) as though it were 1925, and they were basically sheltered creatures till they were married off, usually by age 21. It’s an anachronism, not to mention a double standard.
“t just so happens that males choose to exercise the right to solicit dates more frequently than females as a societal trend.”
– It doesn’t just so happen. That’s what men have been historically trained to do. The funny thing is that more and more men are opting out of this. The related threads of “Where are all of the Good Guys” on this site is indicative of this. They’re leaving this way of dating & mating, so it’s not a trend of asking women more frequently. It’s trending away from that, if anything.
“For the record, I see nothing wrong with a woman making the first move if she can pull it off smoothly enough. Just like any man.”
– I agree. But most don’t. They expect a guy to do all the work.
“But if the assertion here is: Women’s want justice in the workplace, therefore they should also want to be the initiator in mating matters, my response is Not necessarily.”
– No, they shoudn’t WANT to be the initiator…the present situation favors them too much to WANT that.
I read an interesting article a week ago. I want to say Rudov wrote it. that used the Biblical story of Adam and Eve that speaks to this. At its base level, the story is one of CHOICES and DEALING with the CONSEQUENCES of those CHOICES. It’s called adulthood.
In the beginning (had to do that!) Adam was in Eden, protected by God. That’s how children are raised. God instructed Adam to eat as he wanted from the Tree of Life but never from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Adam did so.
Then God made Eve and then the serpent. On cue, the serpent convinced Eve convinced Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. Eve, in turn, persuaded Adam to eat also. Because of this disobedience, God expelled them from the protection of the Garden of Eden to the big, bad, real world.
The article’s interpretation was that taking Knowledge of Good and Evil, Adam and Eve became human. In doing so, they CHOSE elected adulthood, freedom of choice, and accountability, instead of a coddled life in the Garden.
So after leaving Eden, Adam and Eve lost their immortality via the Tree of Life, which now forced them to procreate and become parents. Adam also learned that going forward he would earn a living by the sweat of his brow. Knowing Right vs. Wrong separated Adam and Eve from the animals and made them responsible for the first time a depth they didn’t have in Eden. This abrupt change enhanced, not diminished, their lives. On the contrary, living forever like a protected, spoiled, entitled child is a punishment, not a reward.
So Garden of Eden lesson is that life is about choices. However, this lesson is lost on the women who constantly decry the dearth or death of chivalry. Too many ladies fail to accept the premise that, once they leave their parents Gardens of Eden, they are choosing the responsibilities and accountability of adulthood. Unfortunately, these coddled, entitled women want the double standard of one foot in the real world college degrees, big salaries, home ownership and one in the garden of special privileges come talk to me 1st, ask for my #, initiate the call, ask me out, make the plan, take care of the arrangements, pick me up, take me there pay for the date, presumed wining & dining, etc. Such a woman wants to achieve and to be taken care of. But, life doesn’t work that way.
What is this these entitled women so crave? Today, this ‘chivalry’ is a one-way street of give, give give from men to women. Men extend chivalry not out of respect but as a necessary means to an end (sex). Contrast this with civility, which is a two-way street of considerate, generous behavior. Civility is bereft of gender-based entitlement; chivalry is all about gender-based entitlement.
Just as Eve made a fundamental choice about life, so, too, must women in today’s world choose: deferential treatment or respect. They can have one or the other, but never both. Women who want chivalry and also believe chivalrous men respect them as peers are kidding themselves. In an era when a woman can become anything she wants and earn as much as she wants, if she also expects men to do all the work and finance her social life, she is beyond audacious. She’s rude and narcissistic.
Ladies can’t get special treatment from the bank, the IRS, doctor, or other places. Why should she get it from men? She shouldn’t. But, if a man accords her special treatment, it’s because by demanding it she has reduced herself to a sex object. And, that’s really how he views her. Their so-called relationship then becomes based on legalized prostitution, not respect.
If women want to gain respect amongst men, they must leave the Garden of Eden permanently, with both feet in the real, tough world. They must stop demanding chivalry, act like peers, and treat men like peers. This critical behavioral change does not make women less feminine and men less masculine. It makes them peers equal in intelligence, capability, and potential with different sex organs and complementary styles.
“Btw, specious arguments like Vino’s above aren’t exactly a competitive advantage for a man in the workplace. Lmao.”
– Yes, pointing out hypocrisy has no place at work. Particularly applied to ladies. 😉
KJ says
Nice, I agree.
cinnamon says
vino
I’m glad to hear that the cases of women taking initiative have so far worked fine for you. However, it has not worked out for me so I would like to reserve my right to feel about the issue the way I do.
Jennifer wrote in one of the posts above: I don’t want to start an association with a man trying to convince him that I’m worth his time if he doesn’t feel that way already. Well, I couldn’t agree more.
vino says
Cinn, my pal:
” . . . However, it has not worked out for me so I would like to reserve my right to feel about the issue the way I do.”
– You absolutely do. Not trying to suggest otherwise, just perhaps a different way of looking at things. 🙂 Also, please consider that while initiating dating may not have worked for you, I don’t know that you’ve done it much. Point is that if it hasn’t worked for you in your (likely) limited tries, consider that men always must to initiate, only get shot down the vast, vast majority of the time. This occurs from earliest interactions with women in teens going forward. Imagine the toll hundreds of rejections take over the years to most guys. Just asking you to consider the flip side.
“Jennifer wrote in one of the posts above: I don’t want to start an association with a man trying to convince him that I’m worth his time if he doesn’t feel that way already. Well, I couldn’t agree more.”
– Here’s my reaction to that thinking: too bad. Cold, I know. (I’m also working on 4 hrs of sleep, so crankiness is a factor). But it’s okay for a man to start an association with you as a woman trying to convince you he’s worth your time if you don’t already feel that same way… See the double standard in such a perspective? You want him to do things you are unwilling to do. Not because it’s so horrible, but because you don’t want to risk your pride and ego, 2 things which, IMHO, are big barriers in maintaining meaningful relationships, romantic or otherwise.
Again, women can do everything men can do. In dating that means actually taking a risk, taking some initiative. It’s like being Goldilocks – you want the bowls of poridge to come to you…”No that one’s too hot.” “No, that one’s too cold.” “This one’s just tepid enough to do”
Ladies like being Goldilocks, not the poridge. Understandable, but hypocritical.
BTW, I agree with Evan that guys to maximize their chances, should take the initiative. Women on the whole expect this, so it’s about the likelihood of success. The reality, not what should be.
The flip side is that there are increasing numbers of men don’t want to play this little double standard game where women are go-getter adults, but pampered princesses in dating and mating. So the pool of good guys dwindles further for women.
Michael Ejercito says
Jennifer wrote in one of the posts above: I don’t want to start an association with a man trying to convince him that I’m worth his time if he doesn’t feel that way already. Well, I couldn’t agree more.
A man could say a similar thing about a woman.
So why should men ask women out on dates, but not the other way around?
Hat Pines says
“Just asking you to consider the flip side.”
She’s a WOMAN.
She will refuse to understand the flip side.
women expect us to understand THEM and to be considerate about THEIR feelings, while not making any effort to understand US or be considerate of OUR feelings.
Is there any surprise we dont respect women? That we are only in it for sex?
cinnamon says
vino, my friend
I do see a lot of good reasoning and good will in your point of view 🙂 Especially, the one about the value of being authentic. What I cannot understand is actually one of the first statements from you in this thread:
“Since I don’t care if I date anyone, including them, it’s intriguing to them. When women who are used to being pursued aren’t, it takes them aback. Why? They know you cannot be controlled, as DS describes. They like this challenge since most men they meet aren’t.”
I’m absolutely with you on the argument that says not wanting to risk your pride and ego are big barriers in maintaining meaningful relationships, romantic or otherwise. On both sides. So true! But how come do I read in one of your posts that you prefer showing indifference towards a woman because it gives you control over the situation, and just next to that you appeal to women to be authentic and initiate contact? I’m not afraid of an honest rejection. Unfortunately, I did not experience an honest rejection and I simply take it as a lesson learned.
vino says
cinn, my friend
About one of my first statements, maybe I wasn’t clear enough. The statement:
“Since I don’t care if I date anyone, including them, it’s intriguing to them. When women who are used to being pursued aren’t, it takes them aback. Why? They know you cannot be controlled, as DS describes. They like this challenge since most men they meet aren’t.
I don’t advocate showing indifference as a means to obtain control. I really don’t care. That’s the key. It is being authentic. It happens to give me complete control as a consequence. More often than not, women are used to guys pursuing them like dogs after a treat. It’s old hat to them. That a guy isn’t so into them and their charms (particularly if they are used to it often) many find a challenge, usually too much so. I don’t advocate indifference as a game, for the game becomes obvious soon enough, if it’s being played. I just don’t care to chase. It’s no game (Self-imposed hiatus from dating). Hope that explains it.
About appealing to women to be authentic and initiate contact – I’m simply saying that if a woman wants to talk to a guy, go talk to him. Just as if a guy wants to talk to a girl, he should. the problem is expecting him to always talk. I think it’s hypocritical to expect people to do things you yourself are unwilling to do (not you personally, but the royal ‘you’).
I think women on the whole like this double standard, because it is completely about power & control. They have all of it as long as men are expected and agree to put their ego on the line to initiate contact every time. Women can sit back like they are in Nordstrom where the clerk brings them sever different pairs of shoes – no, no , no, maybe, I’ll try that one.. Poly Sci tells us that no one wants to willingly give up power, so there you have it. I think it’s that simple.
I’m sorry to hear you experienced a dishonest rejection. The thing is, men are expected to blindly put themselves up for rejection every time. You got but a taste of what every single guy experiences multiple times.
vino says
As an aside….
I enjoy cinn’s posts. They seek to understand. I hope mine convey the same.
Hat Pines says
I think women on the whole like this double standard, because it is completely about power & control. They have all of it as long as men are expected and agree to put their ego on the line to initiate contact every time. Women can sit back like they are in Nordstrom where the clerk brings them sever different pairs of shoes – no, no , no, maybe, I’ll try that one.. Poly Sci tells us that no one wants to willingly give up power, so there you have it. I think it’s that simple.
and then they complain about where all the nice guys are.
hunter says
to vino,
I would suggest you continue to study and research human(female) behaviour. Relating to the opposite sex, should involve some work, but it should be fun work. Keep asking and reading up on relatioships, you will find the answers, that you want to hear.
vino says
Who says I’m looking for answers? Or specific ones at that?
cinnamon says
vino,
“I’m sorry to hear you experienced a dishonest rejection.”
I love this one 🙂 No, what I experienced was rather in the direction of game playing, so I hope you understand that I see red when I see any indication of game playing. Especially in your post 😉
But I admit I see your approach more clearly now. I would like to believe the intention is the same as my backing off anytime I smell gameplaying (instead of involving meself in it).
By the way, not that long ago someone recommended me a book by Gottman “The Relatonship Cure: A 5 Step Guide for Building Better Connections with Familiy, friends and Lovers”. The book is reportedly based on a very thorough scientific research of communication patterns in successful and unsuccesful couples. I haven’t read it yet, but I just thought of it because I have a feeling the question who should initiate contact is quite similar to the question who should say “sorry” first after an argument. I assume in good couples the question of who should do it first does not exist…
JB says
We all know who has the MOST power in any relationship dynamic between a man & a woman. It’s not ALWAYS the woman. It’s the one who cares the least and/or has the most options.
This book outlines it perfectly:
“The Passion Trap: Where Is Your Relationship Going?”
By Dean C. Delis & Cassandra Phillips
Incredible book
openly jay says
Vino: “I think women on the whole like this double standard, because it is completely about power & control. They have all of it as long as men are expected and agree to put their ego on the line to initiate contact every time. Women can sit back like they are in Nordstrom where the clerk brings them sever different pairs of shoes – no, no , no, maybe, I’ll try that one.. ”
See, this sort of statement is offensive to women because it’s some guy overgeneralising and telling women what’s going on in their heads (and attacking them for flaws that were purely speculated).
Well, Dorothy & Toto must be somewhere nearby because that, my friends, is most certainly a straw man.
Vino, I suggest you limit your assertions to fact from now on. I trust you know the difference.
vino says
openly:
Did you read a flipping word I wrote in this thread besides that little snippet? Please do before thinking you can castigate, or take something out of context.
And regarding my ‘assertions’ being limited to ‘facts’ – I can certainly take the time to research articles, books, etc. to source every little thing I write. Something tells me if that is the standard, there would be precious few posts, and ones that do exist not favorable to ladies.
BTW, the preceding paragraph to the one YOU chose says:
“About appealing to women to be authentic and initiate contact – I’m simply saying that if a woman wants to talk to a guy, go talk to him. Just as if a guy wants to talk to a girl, he should. the problem is expecting him to always talk. I think it’s hypocritical to expect people to do things you yourself are unwilling to do (not you personally, but the royal you ).”
Then follows the one openly chose:
“I think women on the whole like this double standard, because it is completely about power & control. They have all of it as long as men are expected and agree to put their ego on the line to initiate contact every time. Women can sit back like they are in Nordstrom where the clerk brings them sever different pairs of shoes – no, no , no, maybe, I’ll try that one.. Poly Sci tells us that no one wants to willingly give up power, so there you have it. I think it’s that simple.”
openly wrote:
What speculated flaws? The fact that many, if not, most women expect treatment they themselves are unwilling to give (based upon the responses in this thread)? This is offensive? Puh-leeze.
“See, this sort of statement is offensive to women because it’s some guy overgeneralising and telling women what’s going on in their heads…”
What? Only women can criticize actions by women? Give me a break. Or it can only be done in a fashion you approve of? Respectfully, save the sanctimony.
And I don’t care if someone is offended by my pointing out hypocrisy. Hypocrites usually do mind it.
Oh, and FYI, a straw man argument is the fallacy of refuting a caricatured or extreme version of somebody’s argument, rather than the actual argument they’ve made.
What women on the whole here are saying is that they expect men to initiate contact with them. I’m not creating a caricature or extreme version of the position at all. I’m saying that is the case. It’s hypocritical, because they are equal and can do everything men can do, so expecting preferential treatment in one sphere (dating) while being equal in another is hypocritical, and an anachronistic double standard.
But it’s not a straw man argument. Please be correct before you level that accusation. And read posts fully before doing so.
cinnamon says
vino,
re:#85
Why I seek to understand is because I see a lot of idealism hidden in your posts, though certainly affected by a considerable dose of disillusionment.
In connection with the above, I believe it is better to look for good things in people rather than pointing out their faults. Holding negative expectations towards someone can easily lead to the so called self-fulfilling prophecy, as far as I know there is a number of experiments within e.g. social psychology that confirm that.
Now, I’m again prepared to be accused of hypocrisy ;-). I just stated I had a negative experience with initiating contact first and hold negative expectations in his area. Well, after reading this whole thread I certainly have a more nuanced picture in my head than I had before. And getting a more nuanced picture is the only reason why I at all started to read this blog.
My point is you can easily argue and discuss inconsistences in someone’s way of looking at things without putting a negative label on them.
hunter says
to Vino,
I hear there are many women who approach men. I understand these women that approach men, are labeled, the “man”, in the relationship. Have you ever heard the saying, “There are more men in the world with vaginas?”……hhmmhhh, yes,…..
hunter says
to vino,
…most cute/good looking guys are approached by women, on a daily basis!….
Eda says
The argument that have been made that women want equality in one area — employment, but not in the other — dating/romance doesn’t acknowledge that lots of men also prefer more the traditional male/female roles in dating. It is those men who don’t really want a woman to ask them out. They do like concrete indication that woman are interested, but they still want to do the pursuing. Some of my male friends really don’t speak very highly of women who aggressively pursue them.
I do realize that the changing gender roles can be hard on men, but they are hard on women too. We are given two messages — you don’t really need a man — you can be self sufficient, but at the same time, we are seen as somehow lacking if we don’t have a man/SO. It’s my perception, that men who are single by choice or not, aren’t judged as harshly as single women. I just wish that we could help each other find solutions to the instead of complaining all the time. I, for example, try to show up with more feminine sensibilities when I am in a romantic relationship. I’m not perfect, but I try — and that’s all we can do.
vino says
My friends cinn, hunter & Eda,
Perhaps there is idealism dosed with disillusionment. In general, I try to live within the realm of what is more likely than not. I also think that idealism, like love, may be blind. However, I think I read it here, it also need not be deaf, dumb and stupid either. You have to see where your ideals fit in a reality where things that may contradict your ideals are more likely than not to occur.
Admittedly, calling something or someone hypocritical is probably not the best way to win friends & influence people every time. But pussy-footing (sorry for the phrase, it’s the most accurate that comes to mind) around everything to not offend does little in my opinion, either, because people often don’t get the point if you pussy-foot too much.
“I hear there are many women who approach men. I understand these women that approach men, are labeled, the man, in the relationship. Have you ever heard the saying, There are more men in the world with vaginas? hhmmhhh, yes, ..”
hunter, my experience is that most women, whether they approach men or not, constantly test and indirectly prod (I don’t mean this in a negative way, BTW) to see whether he’s going to be man enough to run the relationship equally or not. If he doesn’t she’s going to be the ‘man’ by default. This occurs whether she approaches or not. FYI, one of my best friends is someone who approached me a year ago.
Eda has a good post – ” . . . doesn’t acknowledge that lots of men also prefer more the traditional male/female roles in dating . . . aggressively pursue them.”
There are many guys who prefer this traditional role. Agreed. Maybe it’s because it’s all they know. Who knows? My point is that, given the context of the thread’s theme (Should Women ask guys out) women should. My further point is that increasing numbers of men feel the same way, so those ‘traditional’ role guys Eda references are a shrinking number. That’s how I think it is. I think smart women will acknowledge this.
Like I said, I agree with Evan – a guy to maximize likelihood of success should initiate, because that’s what women in general expect. Living in “the realm of what is more likely than not…”
Where I part ways with Eda on empathy is this:
“I do realize that the changing gender roles can be hard on men, but they are hard on women too. We are given two messages you don’t really need a man you can be self sufficient, but at the same time, we are seen as somehow lacking if we don’t have a man/SO. It’s my perception, that men who are single by choice or not, aren’t judged as harshly as single women.”
My issue with the above is that the changing gender roles being hard on women. It is women who advocate for these changes and benefits. Now that they have what they want for the most part, it still seems not enough. If you choose a path that is hard on you, my answer is that is your choice. Grin & bear it.
With that said, Eda further writes: “I just wish that we could help each other find solutions to the instead of complaining all the time. I, for example, try to show up with more feminine sensibilities when I am in a romantic relationship. I’m not perfect, but I try and that’s all we can do.”
Amen. I agree. Here’s the rub – All too often, actually identifying the problems and issues is seen as complaining and little more. You cannot solve something until everyone agrees it is a mutual problem, not just a complaint.
Where we’re at is an impasse in general – Women essentially ask “What’s wrong with men?” or “Where are all the good guys” or “All guys want is sex” (I’m simplifying a bit -I hope the intent is clear). I and many other male posters I read here reply that there are fundamental imbalances, inequities, double-standards, and inequitable laws that render the dating and mating game a less than 50/50 chance of winning. The response from most female posters is generally one of “Guys are complaining/whining” or “It’s still men’s fault”… Thereby keeping imbalance. See post #84 re: power & keeping it. Not all women do this I stress, but an awful, awful lot of the time. Hardly provides an incentive to be more understanding or work together.
Ok, I guess I could’ve posted this in the understand opposite sex day thread as well, but I trust it makes clear where I’m coming from.
hunter says
to vino,
I agree with you, women are constantly testing a man. That is part of their defense mechanism. Women want to know who you are.
hunter says
to vino,
I am glad one of your best friends, approached you first……
cinnamon says
vino,
This part of your post, in the context of this thread and your remark about the dating hiatus, has kept puzzling me over the weekend:
“FYI, one of my best friends is someone who approached me a year ago.”
Is friendship better than relationship? Just to clarify, I mean relationship with a big R, not dating
vino says
cinn,
“Is friendship better than relationship? Just to clarify, I mean relationship with a big R, not dating ”
The short answer – yes.
The reasons are many, but the short answer is it’s not worth it to me. I was involved in a LTR for a long time. Lived together, did the whole thing. Here’s the thing – I don’t like compromising. I don’t like the thousands of little compromises that are involved with a ‘relationship.’ Been there, done that. Don’t want to do it again. I’d rather work, have my friends, dog and hobbies. I don’t need a ‘relationship’ to be happy.
I’m in my mid 30’s – in very good physical condition, terrific profession, all my hair 😉 it makes no sense to limit my opportunities now. Sex? That’s easy enough to get.
Most telling is that I haven’t made great choices about mates & relationships in the past. So I see no need to get into one for some time. Clearly, I haven’t learned enough. Or maybe I’ve learned too much. See below.
Also, I’ve mentioned or read this on other threads here, I think – but there is simply no reason to be in a relationship as a guy (or any guy) where I’m at. I have the maximum amount of choices now. I don’t want kids, so have none of those pressures.
Also, I’m pretty wary of most women. Sorry to say, but it’s true. There is a battle going on in society as represented in this board often. I think there are so, so many women who want money out of dating, that it’s very difficult to take them seriously. It’s also very difficult to reliably weed out those who are playing bait-and-switch on it also. Look at match… at least 2/3 of the women there (where I am) not only put down what they earn, but are brazen enough to put down that their ‘ideal date’ earns 2-3x what they do, is ‘successful’ ‘ambitious’ or other similar adjective. Ugh.
The money thing’s an issue (and better explored on other threads) just because I’m not going to fund someone’s social life. I’d rather spend it on myself or hey, a novel idea…save it. Relevance to this thread is the point that they are equal, as I said above, and expecting someone else to pay you to be with them is a double-standard, narcissistic, and, I believe, whorish, without the benefit of guaranteed sex.
Daily interactions are no better. I know 2 women who are good friends, both divorced by 30. One brags about how she ‘got every little thing she was entitled to’… and they both really only go out socially with doctors, lawyers and business owners. And they wonder why I blow them off at every turn…That’s but one example of many.
Don’t get me started on divorce. Let’s just say there’s no reason on this planet for a guy who doesn’t want kids to marry.
I could write tons more about this, but the thing is, I’m free, happily so. I have a great living, good friends, flexibility (may move overseas in a year or so). I don’t have to clear that with someone. I don’t have to worry about calling someone to tell them I’m going to be 30 minutes late, or deal with their family, or their moods, or anything else. It’s great. I can go to wine country on a whim, or camping, or whatever. And it doesn’t have to be camp Hyatt!
You may think I sound cynical, perhaps. But I don’t think so. I think if you read these boards and other things in general, there isn’t a whole lot of incentive, societally or legally, for a guy to pursue ‘relationships’ earnestly. As I read it, the odds of success are considerably less than 50/50 (hell, CA’s divorce rate exceeds 70%; likely non-marriage relationships fail at the same rate or more). So why worry about seeking someone else for your happiness? Seek your own, and you’ll be freer, likely more successful as you move through life. I also think that increasing numbers of guys feel the same way I do, which I would find alarming if I were a woman of similar age.
Oh, and we’re friends precisely because I’m honest with her.
cinnamon says
I see. So here’s where we part in our attitudes…
In a way, I’m glad I’m in Europe.
vino says
“I see. So here’s where we part in our attitudes”
I take it you don’t like what I wrote. Sounds like it wasn’t the answer you expected. It also touches on several other threads on here. Believe me, I wish it were more like the idealized idea of love & relationships we are imbued with. In the real world, it’s not. I’m just adjusting my actions to give me the most freedom in light of the world I see, objectively and subjectively. Is there a problem with that?
Care to elaborate on what your attitude is?
cinnamon says
Well, expected or not expected In the view of your previous posts, I kind of expected. It seems like you heartily encourage women to take initiative, but you’d push away a one which would take it with you.
As I said, I have my experience with initiating contact and my stance is that it is better if the man takes the lead. My argument is a little bit connected with your reasoning but not quite the same. Giving the fact that a man has a lot of freedom to lose and a lot of responsibility to take on (and this is not such a modern phenomenon as it appears at this blog, I would say that the loosing freedom by men appears to me as one of the most universal in time, how should I call it, issues? connected with relationships) I would never pursue or agree to a relationship with a man who is not absolutely sure that this is what he wants. No matter how crazy about him I would be. I believe that any initiating or pushing whatsoever can only lead to problems later. I think if a man does not feel ready for a relationship, no power can force him to it. Better stay away. So I also do strongly support you in your dating hiatus. I granted myself a similar period a few years ago (only that I called it going cold turkey ) and it worked fine. Better than I thought, in fact. I will not elaborate any more on this, though.
Bottom line is I do believe in relationships. I live in the same world as you do and I do have eyes. When I look around I see plenty of couples. When I have a chance to observe them for a while I always realize none of them has a relationship that I would find good for me and feel good in. But my conclusion from this fact is that this is how it should be. Because just like it is in my own hands how I shape my career, how I maintain relationships with those friends that I have and how I get new ones, so is it in my hands to find a man whom I’ll respect and who’ll respect me. I’ve met a few men in my life that I don’t think high of, but at the same time I’ve met plenty of great guys and I’m still meeting, so I’ve managed to keep my ideals safe and warm so far. I cannot imagine being with a man who is not at the same time my best friend.
Selena says
vino–
Feeling the way you do, why do you write so “extensively” on a dating blog? You are happy with yourself, and being single, and you don’t trust most women. So why do you spend so much time (while you’re multitasking) expounding on why men (meaning you) don’t want relationships? What purpose does it serve? Wouldn’t you be happier out enjoying your friends, your dog? You seem to be getting something out of being “anti-relationship” day after day after day. Why are you bothering? This wouldn’t seem to be the ideal venue for your personal views. A waste of time, one might say.
Eda says
Selena,
I think you may not have received the memo, but we are not allowed to ask the seemingly anti-dating/relationship men why they spend time contributing to this website. I’ve posed this question to several of them and I’ve gotten the smack down for asking such a personal question!
The really weird thing is for me, at least, is that I actually can empathize with their weariness of dating/relationships because sometimes dating is sooooooo not fun. I honestly do have more fun going out with my good friends, playing with my dog and cats, and just doing things by myself. I too love the freedom of not having to check in with another person regarding what I want to do and when I want to do it. Yet, I still would like to have a special guy in my life — not for money, not for marriage, not for kids, but just to be a good friend and lover.
As I have mentioned in another post, when I have wanted to complain that men only want sex, I realized that it’s because when I was really honest with myself, it’s because that’s actually what I was offering. This may not be the case for other women, but for me, when something keeps going wrong, I tend to look at myself to see what’s my part in it. I don’t only blame men. I think lots of men and women, don’t really want to take a look at themselves to see how they may or may not be playing a significant role in not getting what they want. Self reflection can be painful, but also liberating too.
Selena says
Cinnamon-
You wrote some things today that reflect my views as well. There are a few men walking the earth I’ve known that I don’t think highly of. But they are individuals, I don’t carry my feelings towards them over to half the population.
I’ve also known some couples whose relationship I most certainly do not envy–I wonder if they stay together “just to be able to say they *have* someone”, rather than out of love and a genuine desire to be a part of each other’s lives.
And I also feel to my core what you wrote: “I cannot imagine being with a man who is not at the same time my best friend.” If that isn’t true, what is the point? And why would I ever agree to be in a relationship with someone who didn’t feel the same way? Let alone pursue a man who obviously was not interested in such with me? It makes no sense in terms of my sense of self and my place in the world.
Selena says
Hi Eda.
Okay, so I got the memo, but chose to ignore it today. My bad. We apparently are much alike. I’m not discontent being single and after a breakup last year, I haven’t even been out there actively ‘looking’ (what a concept), so to speak. But as you wrote, “Yet, I still would like to have a special guy in my life not for money, not for marriage, not for kids, but just to be a good friend and lover. ” I don’t see such as a ‘need’, but rather an enhancement, don’t you?
My own self reflection has led to the belief that yes, in some cases when I found I made poor choices in partners, it had to do with where I was with myself at the time. Funny though how that comes with hindsight. So blind to insight and all the violently waving red flags in the beginning. Sigh.
hunter says
To vino,
you said, “sex is easy to get.” Try to fill me(and like a million other men) in on that……be as direct and precise as you can……
Hat Pines says
vino,
if sex was easy to get, we would not have any virgins running around loose. I am a thirty-year-old virgin and it is my greaterst shame. I fear that people around me will find out and think less of me.
sheseizereason says
Selena –
I got the memo and still choose to second your questions to vino. It just seems weird to me that someone who claims he has so much going for him would feel the incentive to invest time in lengthy exposition against relationships …on a blog about dating and relationships. As I’ve previously pointed out, it doesn’t add up.
With such a rich life, is spending time here the smart thing to do with your time?
vino says
I’ve some thoughts. Under water at present. Will post soon.
vino says
For Evan’s sake, I’m going to break this up into 3 or 4 parts, & post them a few hours or a day apart.
Selena,
While I am out of the game, so to speak, I don’t foreclose the possibility of altering my view in the future. I know enough to know I don’t know everything. I write more than most to be clear. Quick, nonsensical blurbs are not my way.
cinn:
Whether *I* would push someone away is a highly specific thing, not what a normal guy would likely do. Keep in mind that the shoes on the other foot most of the time (guy to pursue). I encourage someone of either sex to take initiative if they are interested in someone.
I agree with your stance that re: initiating contact and it is better if the man takes the lead. Not because of any great psychological analysis, but because that’s what most women expect, and what most men are ‘trained’ to do.
Sheseize wrote:
It just seems weird to me that someone who claims he has so much going for him would feel the incentive to invest time in lengthy exposition against relationships on a blog about dating and relationships. As I’ve previously pointed out, it doesn’t add up.
With such a rich life, is spending time here the smart thing to do with your time?
You can think it doesn’t add up. However, what brought me here was a growing frustration about the whole process. I suspect most guys who read & post are in a same or similar boat.
I’m not against relationships, just the current state of the vast majority of them. I think you see many guys expressing this. Good news is I can choose something else.
One of the reasons I haven’t posted anything marginally personal until now are the above posts by Eda & sheeseize and the like. Not picking on either, but now they seem to intimate I shouldn’t post because I may hold opinions that are different, nay opposite from theirs. Last I checked, this board isn’t an echo chamber or an Oprah show, and different opinions were welcome. Also notice how no one talk about the subject matter any more, but whether vino’s against relationships.
I read verbosity vigilance about such ad hominem attacks. I’m not going to make a big issue out of it, but this is an example of one. That’s why I don’t generally divulge anything posters who don’t agree want to go after me, not the substance of what’s said.
More to come The good stuff.
Eda says
Vino,
I have never suggested that you shouldn’t post to this site because you have different ideas. As I wrote once before, I just don’t understand why you post when it does appear that you are not interested in dating.
One thing I have realized is that some people just want to share their views and opinions without the specific intent of helping others do better in the dating world. And while that isn’t what I am seeking or what my intent is, it is as a legitimate reason as any other for coming to the website. So, I will no longer ask people who seem to be anti relationship why they are here. They are here because they are. Period. And even if I don’t understand their motivation, I just might learn something important anyway.
sheseizereason says
V-
I didn’t intimate an opinion about whether or not you should post. Even if I had, it certainly wouldn’t be to avoid opinions contrary to mine.
I firstly don’t find facts about your personal life particularly relevant to the discussion. Secondly, because you self-profess to have such a wonderful life, it seems incongruous with the amount of time you spend here.
My main point, in a nutshell, is that I’m having a hard time buying your press release about yourself.
If you choose to take my observation of this inconsistency as a personal attack, then so be it.
vino says
cinn: “Bottom line is I do believe in relationships.”
I totally respect that. I think they can work, but the ways *I* think they can work most people would reject, if for any reason but that they are too equal. They include no cohabitation, no marriage, pay equally. I think that the dating/mating game is one where the odds of success for a guy aren’t even 50/50, let alone favorable. I base this on 3 basic ideas, societal expectations, sex, and the legal climate. The common thread through all of them is a lack of equality, or power imbalance.
Societal Expectations:
I wrote above, and other men have written about the existing double standards, so I don’t want to repeat all of them. Let’s just say I think it’s patently unfair to expect men (or women, if you’re a guy) to do things for you that you aren’t willing to do for him. Examples are above and in other threads, but include initiating contact, expecting men to pay for darn near everything, etc. (See Should Women Settle/Women Who Earn More Than Men/Where are Cute, Funny & others) If ladies can do everything men can do in society it necessarily includes the dating/marriage area also. I don’t think you can pick the rights you like and ignore the responsibilities that come with them. Equal means equal 24/7, not when you feel like it and it benefits you the most.
Spurring this was a look at my Quicken & seeing how much $$ I wasted over the last 2 years (5 figures) on dating & what else I could have done with it. Not to mention my time.
Going with the money theme also, I’ve reviewed this board and I think it’s pretty clear that women seek and prefer guys who earn more than they (no matter how much they themselves earn), and the more the better. It’s also very (most) important in the legal arena later. It’s better discussed in other threads, but I like some of verbosity’s writing on it (sarcastic yet logical). As I wrote above look at match.com, it’s shockingly prevalent. They why’s are better discussed elsewhere, but verbosity’s right it’s about options. By seeking guys who earn more, women have options. My issue is that guys (me) don’t. We’re to keep earning for her options. Simply put, where’s the benefit to me? I don’t see it.
Particularly when it comes to marriage & co-habitation this sucks. You end up subsidizing someone else lifestyle, while simultaneously reducing your own. Nonsensical. This is a huge problem particularly in divorce re: alimony.
The bottom line is that in the dating game, by having to do all of the initiating, number getting, calling, planning chauffering, and paying, guys are in a TERRIBLE power position, like a serf waiting on royalty. It’s completely unequal, and this lack of equality is no way to start any relationship that is supposed to be equal. No one’s saying men need to be in a superior power position, just an equal one. I also think that women on some level don’t respect a guy who does all of this doting. Again, where’s the benefit to me? Women who truly are equal and expect to give as much as they receive materially & emotionally are truly few and far between, in my experience.
vino says
Eda wrote: “I have never suggested that you shouldn’t post to this site because you have different ideas.”
– Didn’t say you specifically did. But you are aware that by bringing it up you do, in effect, indirectly say it.
Eda also wrote: “As I wrote once before, I just don’t understand why you post when it does appear that you are not interested in dating.”
– You actually touched on the opposite of why – “One thing I have realized is that some people just want to share their views and opinions without the specific intent of helping others do better in the dating world.”
It IS helping others do better in the dating world. It just may not be helping according to your rules & expectations of the dating world. A different take, if you will. If one thing I write helps a guy reject a goldigger (for ex.) or a woman be clearer about her birth control practices (for ex.) to they can make better decisions, then it’s worth it. As I indicate above with more to follow, I think the expectations/paradigms and power of dating and relationships are out of whack with today’s reality, for both sexes.
vino says
sheseiz:
“I firstly don’t find facts about your personal life particularly relevant to the discussion.”
– I do agree it’s off-topic. But I assume you read my previous postings, and was answering something cinn asked. As I see no guile in anything she’s previously written, I answered. Honest dialouge was positive, or so I thought.
“Secondly, because you self-profess to have such a wonderful life, it seems incongruous with the amount of time you spend here.”
– The amount I time I may or may not spend here I would think is not your concern. That type of comment is specifically why I’ve refrained from divulging any personal information. This is specifically WHY Evan has chastised people before and even began a whole thread on it. No mention on the substance of anything I said, I see.
“My main point, in a nutshell, is that I’m having a hard time buying your press release about yourself.
– Nice sarcasm. Not a press release. See above.
“If you choose to take my observation of this inconsistency as a personal attack, then so be it.”
– So be it indeed. Actually you made several ‘observations’ as noted herein. Nothing like attacking the messenger because you don’t like the message. Funny thing is you were notably absent from any discussion until someone offers something personal, then you show up like pigeons on crumbs at a pier. Curious.
cinnamon says
vino,
within a couple of days you managed to gain a friend and lose a friend now.
Evan Marc Katz says
Faithful readers,
You may notice a pattern.
Intelligent opinionated male (Verbosity, Deathslayer, Vino) gets on message boards, expresses a thoughtful, if somewhat gender-biased opinion, gets insulted for expressing said opinion, retorts with multiple leeeeengthy posts, and the discussion gets hijacked into a personal back and forth that lasts for days and eventually drives the man off. Well, I like having male readers, I like having different opinions, and I would really appreciate it if you could tolerate your respective differences.
Women: Feel free to disagree with men’s opinions by expressing the strength of your own views. Just lay off the personal attacks. Vino is here for the same reason most of us are here – this is interesting stuff, and it applies to men and women universally.
Men: Stop responding at length to those who disagree with you. It only prolongs a pointless argument. Oh, and keep it simple, where possible. Everyone here should be able to make a point in a couple of short paragraphs without any infighting or acrimony.
With great love and respect,
The Management
Boudica says
i am a 49 year old woman, intelligent, well educated, very attractive, widowed, and i am sick of the way the women in this thread have responded to vino. i agree with him–much more so that i agree with any of the women or evan. i have looked back at vino’s other posts on other threads, and i agree with him there, also. vino, keep speaking your mind. there ARE women who agree with you, we ARE out there…….obviously not on this site, but women who attempt to see how double standards benefit US sometimes DO exist. keep speaking the TRUTH.
vino says
Actually, I’d like to correct the record re: something Evan wrote. Some of my earlier posts were a bit long. Sorry. But they were not in response to being insulted. Cinn was asking good, clarifying questions regarding some earlier posts. I was answering. The insults only just began.
I’d also like to point out both sexes have gender biased opinions. I don’t date men & can’t speak to what it’s like to date them & the converse also applies. Assuming no gay/bi posters are here…
Oh, and I tolerate everyone’s opinions…it just isn’t reciprocated very often. 🙂
cinn:
Sorry you feel that way. I suspect you, like I, will get over it rapidly.
cinnamon says
vino,
Thanks for support. As you noticed yourself none of my posts were intended to insult or attack you. In fact, if I hadn’t spot one of your comments (to the Should Women Settle thread), which also reflected my view, I would have probably never felt motivated to comment on this blog at all.
As mentioned before, I’m European and I have little insight in the reality which many posters here refer to. Therefore I will limit my participation from now on. Also because I do not feel I actually meet the target audience profile.
Just to respond to your last topic-related comment. My perception of the value of man-woman relationship and family/kids in general is rather clear. I value them highly. I would not pursue the living-apart-together model simply because I do not believe this is a remedy for all the confusion in the dating/mating/family area caused by the social changes, mainly feminist movement, as you noticed yourself. So here is where we part.
vino says
Thanks Boudica. You’re one in a million. Literally. 😉
vino says
cinn:
Glad something I said spurred comment. However, sorry if what I’ve said will cause limitation by you.
Philosophically, I agree with your view of man-woman relationship and family/kids value, though I don’t want kids. Sadly & realistically, I don’t see the societal or legal incentive to foster such relationships. The opposite in fact occurs. It’s getting Lord of the Flies-like. I may change my mind on this at some point, but that’s what I see now. The only thing I see I can do for protection is do not date/marry at all; or if so, do the living-apart-together model.
That said, I’m putting the pieces in place to move out of the gold old USA in the next couple of years. Perhaps we’ll run into each other. You’ll know it’s me…I’ll be the one wearing the “Don’t Marry” t-shirt. LOL.
That’s a joke, btw. 😉
cinnamon says
vino,
Realistically, I do have a picture in my mind of all the homes when the whole family is terrorized by an alcoholic or abusive man day in day out. I do realise there are men who leave their spouses in debt, there are men who exchange them for a newer model when they hit the mid-life crisis. I know that if I happen to fall for a commitment-phobic man, then even though I would have the looks of Angelina Jolie and the personality of Mother Theresa, he will keep fault finding until he pushes me away in the best case or leaves me as a nervous wrack in the worst case.
However, it is my philosophical attitude and the example of all the good couples that I have around me that keeps me believing both in relationships and family. Though I must admit I had a very long period of doubt in my life, so I fully understand you.
Where I come from, the late 60ies was the period when women (arm in arm with men) were fighting for more important (in my personal opinion) rights than the right to a one night stand.
vino says
cinn,
I do see your point about seeing the worst in people & applaud your optimism. My point is that the things I mention as drawbacks are very widely acknowledged as the majority of circumstances, at least 70% or more. That means I have to sort through at least 7 of ten to get to the final three to even see if they are ‘alcoholic or abusive’ are willing to trade in for newer, higher earning model, nags, cajoles, etc,,, in the remaining three. I just don’t see all of this sifting & sorting as worth the time now.
Even if as you mentioned, I meet Angelina Jolie-like looks who’s sweet and nice, the simple reality is that if we do marry and she gets bored later or is ‘unfulfilled,’ she can bail & take 1/2 of what I’ve worked for. No questions asked. No wrongdoing on my part. There’s a built-in disincentive to stay together via the legal system, if there ever was one.
CA divorce rate exceeds 70%. You see all of these happy couples around you. 7 out of 10 couples won’t be together in a year. And women initiate over 70% of all divorces (& relationships by proxy, I’d think). I think the odds suck. It’s that simple.
So why play the odds? Play a different game entirely. Or don’t play, as it were. I think what you see by deathslayer & some other posters reflects this. Until the odds improve, they won’t play.
“Where I come from, the late 60ies . . .fighting for more important (in my personal opinion) rights than the right to a one night stand.”
– Agreed. But that right to a ONS was part of the fight too. It freed both sexes.
Stay optimistic.
cinnamon says
🙂
“But that right to a ONS was part of the fight too”
I meant fight for democracy, not the feminist movement 😉
I kind of like discussing with you, and I really do honestly emphatise with a situation of any person, either man or woman, who have invested their time, resources and feelings in a relationship, and are being left for no valid reason simply because their partner was bored and divorce is just so easy to get. I would see this sad situation more as an outcome of the extreme (and still growing) individualism and secularisation, though. And this is my philosophical background for rejecting the living-apart-together model.
But I can also see we come from two very different worlds, and probably if I mentioned that my biggest reservation regarding the institution of marriage has always been the fear of becoming economically dependent on someone else you wouldn’t probably believe it :-).
Even though I do have a lot of understanding for the issues that you and some other male posters raise here, being a relatively young woman I can see quite a dilemma in the requirements towards women that I’ve noticed reading this blog which are in a way conflicting for me. And here I mean a requirement to be caring, nurturing, committed, not career-driven, not challenging on one hand, and a requirement to be economically and emotionally self-sufficient, independent, not looking for any kind of support from a man on the other and.
to be continued…
cinnamon says
I think why this recent return to the golddigging and “equality” topic struck me, is the fact that I remember very clearly the arguments raised in one of the earlier threads about women who are married to their work and therefore not meeting their (equally career-driven) partners’ needs. That time I thought: “Wow, there is something in what this guy is saying. Can a relationship between two people who are both highly committed to their careers really work out? Could I compromise on my career for the sake of the relationship?”
I’m optimistic. But I’m also extremely puzzled.
vino says
cinn:
I’ll admit that it can appear that there is a tension between goldigger avoidance and what you put as being economically independent.
I’d like to give a hearty thumbs up to your reservations about marriage vis-a-vis economic dependence. But I don’t think that the concepts are necessarily at loggerheads.
I think there’s a problem going in when the earnings are significantly disparate, particularly from the marriage front. Say you make $50k/yr and your husband makes $250k/yr. By virtue of just being with him, your standard of living increases. This is particularly a problem at divorce time, when the lesser earner is entitled to continuing payments after divorce to continue that standard of living! It;s akin to giving a beggar $20 once a month out of heart’s goodness, then being obligated to do it because he got used to it. In no-fault divorce, this is clearly an incentive to marry up economically.
More to follow later, perhaps tomorrow.
cinnamon says
Looking forward to it.
Still, I’m a person who likes to look at the “big picture”, so please let’s also take into account the whole thread about Successful Women and all the traits that $250k/yr men are looking for in their partners mentionned in that thread.
My intuition is telling me that just like many men are puzzled by the confilicting/unclear expectations that they are presented with from womens’ side, there is also planty of women who would do their best to satisfy the expectations/needs of their men and are maybe puzzled just like me.
Eda says
I’d like to provide a different perspective on the men supporting women idea. Many posters often see this set up as all good for the woman and really really bad for the man…she is just draining him of his hard earned money. However, as has been hinted at but not expounded on, the men who take care of women do get something out of it and it is often power and control as I will reveal through my personal experience.
Many years ago when I was young and poor as I was fresh out of college, I went on vacation with my boyfriend who was 9 years my senior and well established in his career. While we never talked about our incomes, I was pretty certain that he made more money than I did. So, he asked me to go on vacation with him and all I had to pay for was my airplane (which was all I could afford) — he would take care of everything else. I was excited because I rarely went on vacations.
When we got to our destination, he made it very clear that since he was paying for vacation, I pretty much had to have sex when he wanted and as frequently as he wanted. And, I had to wear the outfits that he wanted. Because I was young and foolish, I kind of felt obligated to do what he wanted. I was resentful, but still I did what he wanted. After I came back from vacation, I realized that having a man “take care” of me wasn’t all it was cracked up to be, and I vowed that I would never, ever be financially dependent on a man. No man would ever tell me what to wear or when and how often to have sex. No man would ever have control over me in any way shape or form.
Now my example may be extreme, but there are plenty of women for whom being financially dependent or taken care of comes at a price…a high price. While many women are willing to accept that price, many woman are not. So, just as there are men who want to avoid golddiggers, there are women who want to maintain their financial autonomy.
To be clear, I am not saying that all men who take care of women behave in a controlling manner, but enough do. So, I think it’s only fair to point out that men do get something out of being the provider…it isn’t all one-sided in favor of women.
vino says
So my basic theory is that women, no matter how much they earn, seek guys who make more. Not all, but vast majority. This is where the problem starts IMHO.
This fits in with the suer- successful men & women in an interesting way. I think verbosity wrote that it necessarily mandates a very small pool of very successful men for the very successful women. That’s the first thing. Then, as I noted, successful people of both sexes necessarily spend a lot of time being successful… meetings, conference calls, travel. The time factor is an impediment.
Also, the personality traits are often the same – hyper, aggressive, restless, even when not ‘on the clock.’ My anectdotal observation is that women generally have a harder time leaving work at work, so it comes home (PLENTY of guys do this too). So in those few time you are together, she’s more likely to be restless, hyper, still focused on work, etc. Here is the difference as I see it – As a guy, I don’t find that attractive, or conducive to a good relationship. There’s no room for warmth, or loving. It’s like being with an aggressive guy. Many women think men should like how successful they are, etc, because that’s what they like in men. It simply isn’t so.
Do I have an easy answer? No. Are there some very successful, warm loving, career women out there? Yes.If not already taken, they’ve focused on the guys who make even more than they, and have maybe landed them already.
vino says
This relates to the whole marriage/money trap.
Had a brilliant conversation with a friend last night. He spoke with an expert on cognitive dissonance. This expert was hired by Costco to evaluate the success of Costco’s policy of allowing flat screen TV’s to be returned at any time. His answer is that it would be a terrible policy.
I don’t recall every detail of what was relayed to me, but the short answer is that people unless they are given a clear boundary, a clear end point for such a decision, they are unhappy, and will rationalize some way out of the choice. Ex – you buy a BMW. It’s a great car. You’re happy with it. But then you see the comparable Mercedes, and it’s actually a little better looking, more amenities, better gas mileage, more room. You like the M-B more. You’d be immediately unhappy with the BMW if you could easily return it tomorrow, get your money back & get the M-B. But, as we all know, it doesn’t work that way with cars.
But that’s how marriage works now with no-fault, it struck me. It’s easy to bail to trade up for the M-B, so it’s easy to rationalize that you’re not ‘fulfilled’ or ‘happy’ or any other silly reason like that. Interesting psychology. I know very little of it, but saw that parallel.
cinnamon says
“But that’s how marriage works now with no-fault, it struck me. It’s easy to bail to trade up for the M-B, so it’s easy to rationalize that you’re not fulfilled or happy or any other silly reason like that.”
This is an interesting observation. I just dare to claim that if this is the case, then if applies equally to both sexes…
I would also suspect, that this may be the case for people for whom marriage in itself has no value.
I was actually suprised how many people on his blog claimed they wish to wait with sex until marriage. Wow. This is certainly not a majority of the population, but for sure an example (one of many) of people who believe that marriage has a value.
Coming back to the discrepancies in earnings and women having the incentive to marry up economically. I do recall an argument saying that very successful $250k/yr men are looking for partners who are not nearly as accomplished professionally. And that they do it on purpose. So apparently there must be some mutual interest in such a constellation.
vino says
Have to view it differently, Eda.
If you look at match. com, one of the areas is “turn-ons.” If you do a random sampling, I suspect you find “power” “boldness/assertiveness” in 85% or more of the answers. Simply put, women like and seek that characteristic in general.
This is going to sound way cold but – You also have to ask what he’s getting for his money if you want to be taken care of? Sex is necessarily a part of that. You may think he was too extreme, but remember YOU sought the person in the power position who could give you things. That’s part & parcel of such a decision.
Eda wrote: “So, just as there are men who want to avoid golddiggers, there are women who want to maintain their financial autonomy.”
– I agree. They should. And in doing so should contribute equally in every way, including financially. Most don’t however. They want autonomy & to continue receiving… Can’t do both.
hunter says
To Eda,
I agree with you, young women do get controlled by men.(this frustrates some women) Although, it seems more like a young womans mind, was built to follow a man. Don’t they say that is one of god’s biggest jokes, just to keep this place populated?
Eda says
Vino,
I really don’t know why, but your view of women makes me sad. I don’t have statistics or studies that I can quote, but I truly believe that there are lots of women who don’t see men as meal tickets and who would be more than happy to contribute equally (emotionally, financially, sexually, and intellectually) in a relationship.
cinnamon says
Guys, just to sum up what I see here. As I understand, you’re looking for women who are caring for you, nurturing to you, committed to you, not career-driven, not challenging, not stressed, working less hours than you and greeting you with a home-made dinner when you come back home tired after your 12-hr working day.
These same women shall contribute equally to the home budget which means that they shall earn the same as you, and in order to do so they need to have highly paid 60-hr per week jobs and be fully committed to them. Also they should not expect any behavior from men that could be perceived as a masculine equivalent of caring for them, being nurturing to them or being committed to them.
Is this a correct understanding?
vino says
cinn wrote:
“I just dare to claim that if this is the case, then if applies equally to both sexes”
– You betcha. I agree. But please keep in mind that ladies do initiate over 70% of divorces. So that in practice doesn’t seem to balance out…
“I would also suspect, that this may be the case for people for whom marriage in itself has no value.”
– Maybe in some cases. Maybe not. I think that the ability to easily exit, and profit from it (often, though not every time) is one where the tail wags the dog. One may value marriage and therefore wait till then for sex, but once the daily marriage grind (see Lori Gottleib) sets in, the easy exit rationalizations begin. I think you see this in people who married in heir 20’s, and felt trapped by 30’s – todays ‘cougars’ and guys who go after the young girls. Point is the ease to exit creates the unhappiness.
” . . .very successful $250k/yr (& up) men are looking for partners who are not nearly as accomplished professionally. And that they do it on purpose. So apparently there must be some mutual interest in such a constellation.”
– Not to say they are necessarily ‘looking’ for less-accomplished partners. I think it’s a compromise. But when you look at dating a go-getter lady, she doesn’t have the time to be with you, physically or emotionally. Or, as Leykis puts it, “she’s not there to eff me when I want” either. Plus, as I and other posters have posited, many very successful women simply don’t possess the characteristics many very successful guys want.
My experience is that I and most very successful guys I know want women who will be available, who will be warm and ‘present’ when with us, and, to eff us when we’re around too 😉 The women who really have the time to be this way are less successful, career-wise, more often than not. So that pairing of successful guys and less successful women occurs.
But it’s a compromise for both. He compromises and understands that for someone to be there for him, they’re going to be earning far less, so he will have to deal with a goldigger problem or accept that he’s going to have to support her. Most guys are raised to expect to do this, so you see more willing to do it (support). The woman, on the other hand, gets monetary benefit – homes, vacations, cars, etc, that she would not have otherwise received simply by earning it through work’s earnings. Thing is, he’s also willing to compromise & lower his standard of living for this arrangement…
Here’s where it gets funny for women – women, even the very successful ones, still seek men who earn more. They’re very happy to buy into the above compromise, yet they, for the most part HATE the prospect of supporting a guy who makes less. Because hey, they’re the ones who are supposed to be supported, even if they make $250k… So they seek guys who make 2-3x what they do, which are few men indeed. Why? Because if she decides not to work, etc, she doesn’t want her standard of living to drop from what it otherwise would be, so it necessitates someone who earns 2x more, at least.
A big difference between her and the guy who’s successful is, she’s unwilling to compromise & lower her standard of living for any arrangement. Not true in all cases but the VAST majority of ’em.
A-L says
I find it interesting how often the person earning $250k is popped up in various threads, and decided to do a little research.
Under $25k 25.2%
$25-35k 11.5%
$35-50k 14.5%
$50-75k 18.2%
$75-100k 11.3%
$100-150k 11.5%
$150-200k 4.0%
$200-250k 1.5%
$250k + 1.9%
The above is a breakdown of percentage of the population that earns a specific income. Unfortunately, it’s by household, so it’s not an exact break down by individual salaries, but you get the general idea. And how much of those six figure salaries are coming from households where it’s a 2-earner family? (Statistics come from the US Census’ website at
If two guys were equally sweet, funny, intelligent, sensitive, good-looking, etc, then yeah, most every woman is going to take the one with a higher salary. I’m sure men seeking a partner would as well. If a guy bores you to tears, however, he could be Bill Gates and he still wouldn’t get a second date, much less a spouse. (Just went out with a guy the other night who fit this description; he asked me out, I paid for myself, and could hardly wait to go home ALONE. Now my post is also relevant to the the original topic. :))
A-L says
Many men (particularly from Central and South American, Asian, and African countries) expect to have the woman cook, clean, take care of the children, etc, regardless of whether or not the woman works. They also want to be the ones deciding what to watch on tv, what to do on vacations, what their spouse can do without them, etc. They often expect this type of control over their spouse, regardless of how much money the man or the woman makes. I grew up in such a household. It’s one of the reasons why I think it’s important for couples to discuss gender roles and expectations, and how/if they think that should change once they marry or have children. And though I mentioned men from several international locations, this also holds true for many American men, particular ones with conservative beliefs. So though these men may (though not necessarily) earn more money than their spouse, they’re getting a whole heck of a lot out of it, and that’s not including any possible sexual aspects to it.
And not to sound too pessimistic, I’m one of those optimists that believes in the sanctity of marriage, and views it as a union for mutual comfort, aid, and pleasure. (I’m also one of those that cinnamon alluded to from the other thread.) And I’m not asking for my husband to have a $250k salary either. 🙂
hunter says
To Cinnamon,
You said, Just to sum up….I disagree with you, the average man is not that complicated. All we need is a good recliner, a big screen, food and sex…..LOL!….
vino says
For cinn’s #139:
I think you’re misstating what I am saying.
” . . . not career-driven”
– I’m not saying that. I’m saying that broadly speaking, most don’t have the previously mentioned warmth, nurturing traits, etc, and don’t have the time to be with us. There are some where it works. Great. As a guy or girl, you have to understand that your very successful partner makes work their first priority and you somewhere else down the list. If you accept this, fine. My point is that more women are willing to accept it (be with successful guy) than the reverse. I’m further saying that very successful women don’t want to be with guys the same or less successful than they.
“not challenging”
– This is obvious to see, difficult to explain sometimes. I love a smart woman and enjoy intellectual debate and stimulation. However the context I and most guys I’ve read here indicate something besides that. I don’t want to be challenged on my wardrobe, who my friends are, where we go for dinner, the filet vs. NY strip, etc, etc etc… I don’t want to challenged, critiqued & cajoled in my personal life about stupid shit. If someone tries it, they are gone. Fast.
“not stressed”
– I never said this. My point is that BOTH parties should make an effort to have their personal time together as bereft of stress as possible. A haven, if you will. Not always doable, but should be a goal.
“working less hours than you and greeting you with a home-made dinner when you come back home tired after your 12-hr working day.”
– When did I ever say that? I said that very successful guys tend to gravitate towards women who have more flexibility to be with them. Never said anything about the dinner thing. Besides, most women don’t cook anymore anyway 😉
“These same women shall contribute equally to the home budget…”
– When did I say that in relation to the very successful/less successful discussion? I didn’t. I said less successful women with more successful men get a definite monetary benefit. Their standard of living is raised. However, in general very successful women are loath to do the same for less successful men, and usually don’t.
“… which means that they shall earn the same as you, and in order to do so they need to have highly paid 60-hr per week jobs and be fully committed to them.”
– DIdn’t say that at all. With that said, though, my point is that if guys applied the same financial standards to women that women apply to guys, you’d be correct. Fair is fair & equal is equal, no?
“Also they should not expect any behavior from men that could be perceived as a masculine equivalent of caring for them, being nurturing to them or being committed to them.”
– When did I say that?
“Is this a correct understanding?”
– Nope. It overstated & misstated several things. See above.
🙂
A-L says
I posted this before, but for some reason it didn’t go up.
I find it interesting how often the person earning $250k is popped up in various threads, and decided to do a little research.
Under $25k 25.2%
$25-35k 11.5%
$35-50k 14.5%
$50-75k 18.2%
$75-100k 11.3%
$100-150k 11.5%
$150-200k 4.0%
$200-250k 1.5%
$250k + 1.9%
The above is a breakdown of percentage of the population that earns a specific income. Unfortunately, it’s by household, so it’s not an exact break down by individual salaries, but you get the general idea. And how much of those six figure salaries are coming from households where it’s a 2-earner family? (Statistics come from the US Census’ website at
If two guys were equally sweet, funny, intelligent, sensitive, good-looking, etc, then yeah, most every woman is going to take the one with a higher salary. I’m sure men seeking a partner would as well. If a guy bores you to tears, however, he could be Bill Gates and he still wouldn’t get a second date, much less a spouse. (Just went out with a guy the other night who fit this description; he asked me out, I paid for myself, and could hardly wait to go home ALONE. Now my post is also relevant to the the original topic. :))
A-L says
Here’s a post of mine that didn’t go up before.
I find it interesting how often the person earning $250k is popped up in various threads, and decided to do a little research.
Under $25k 25.2%
$25-35k 11.5%
$35-50k 14.5%
$50-75k 18.2%
$75-100k 11.3%
$100-150k 11.5%
$150-200k 4.0%
$200-250k 1.5%
$250k + 1.9%
The above is a breakdown of percentage of the population that earns a specific income. Unfortunately, it’s by household, so it’s not an exact break down by individual salaries, but you get the general idea. And how much of those six figure salaries are coming from households where it’s a 2-earner family? (Statistics come from the US Census’ website; I’m posting without the link as it appears this post keeps getting deleted and I’m trying to see if this is why.)
If two guys were equally sweet, funny, intelligent, sensitive, good-looking, etc, then yeah, most every woman is going to take the one with a higher salary. I’m sure men seeking a partner would as well. If a guy bores you to tears, however, he could be Bill Gates and he still wouldn’t get a second date, much less a spouse. (Just went out with a guy the other night who fit this description; he asked me out, I paid for myself, and could hardly wait to go home ALONE. Now my post is also relevant to the the original topic. :))
cinnamon says
“Perhaps we’ll run into each other. You’ll know it’s me I’ll be the one wearing the Don’t Marry t-shirt. LOL.”
LOL, I must have missed this one :-). I’m afraid in real life we would have never run into each other, because I would run to the hills as soon as I saw you T-shirt and you would not have notice me running because I don’t meet your 5’5″ criteria. LOL 🙂
cinnamon says
vino,
re: 139. just ignore it. It was posted simultaneously with your 140, sorry.
vino says
Actually 5’5″ runners fit perfectly. Never said anyone 5’5″ wasn’t for me. Quite the contrary 😉
cinnamon says
“Actually 5?5? runners fit perfectly”.
I’m more petite than that, at least according to my unit converter 😉 My point was the Don’t Marry t-shirt will make most of women run away faster than the speed of light 😉
But please don’t take it like I’m challenging anyone on their choice of wardrobe LOL
vino says
A-L:
I think bringing up households with dual incomes muddies the water. To be clear, I am talking about where an individual man or woman earns a fair to a lot of money, $250k + and up.
“two guys were equally sweet, funny, intelligent, sensitive, good-looking, etc, then yeah, most every woman is going to take the one with a higher salary.”
– My point exactly. And most men would be okay with it.
“I’m sure men seeking a partner would as well.”
– Different point. My point is the woman with the higher salary would NOT be okay with it as the guy would above. Therefore, it doesn’t matter if the men would want the woman with the higher salary. She wouldn’t want him. Women always trade up in general.
But you are correct in one respect about the statistics…that in the higher earning category, successful women have few choices, since they are always looking higher & higher within that 1.9% & never in the opposite direction.
A-L says
Vino,
I think you missed my point. The HOUSEHOLDS (yes, as you mentioned, there are often multiple breadwinners here) that earn $200k+ is 3.4%. Let’s say that that 1/3 of that group are single males, so 1% of the population. Yeah, it’d be nice to find someone with that kind of salary, but then you get realistic and know the chances of that happening are slim to none. It’s the same way that guys would like to find someone who looks like Jessica Alba. Such people exist, yes. But they’re such a small percentage of the population that guys get realistic and marry the moderately attractive girl-next-door. (See the If Men Like Only Hot Women thread.)
In terms of womens’ tastes, I think most women require a minimum base salary. This would include the minimum needed to sustain the cheapest lifestyle they would feel comfortable living. (When I say living, the cheapest salary that 1 person could live on comfortably, not supporting both people.) So long as a guy meets that minimum, then anything over it is gravy. Obviously the minimum will vary upon the woman, but I doubt it’s the $250k mark for most, since so few people even know what life is like with that kind of money coming in. Personally, mine’s around $35k and I live in a southern city. That’s less than I make, but a far cry from the 6-figure salaries that some of the men think all women are requiring, or the 6-figure salaries upon which I was raised.
A-L says
By the way, Evan, can my repeated posts get deleted?
vino says
Re: A-L’s #152
I don’t disagree with your characterization of compromising (that dirty “c” word!). I do think that the view you offer in the 2nd paragraph, while certainly preferable and healthy, represents a small minority.
I had this discussion with a woman I know this weekend. Her POV is that she’s not going to date anyone who makes less because if she wants to do something or buy something when she wants, she doesn’t want to worry about his finances & whether he can afford to do something. She indicated all of her friends feel the same way. She also mentioned having kids as a reason for this (future planning).
“Sooooo that’s because you or they would want kids and to take time off to have them?” I asked. “Right” she said. “And not have your standard of living drop from what it would be if you were single?” I asked. “Yes. Of course.” She answered. I asked, “So let me get this straight. I’d get to fund your standard of living, reduce my own correspondingly, and this is a good deal for me?” No answer. “uhhhhh….”
That’s fine. Anyone can have their ‘standards.’ I asked her what her friends would think if I applied that same standard to them. She said they’d freak. Typical. Fair is fair, no? Turns out the answer is no…
So, no… In general, women who earn more than men are LOATHE to date or marry them.
So to recap…
“In terms of womens’ tastes, I think most women require a minimum base salary. This would include the minimum needed to sustain the cheapest lifestyle they would feel comfortable living. (When I say living, the cheapest salary that 1 person could live on comfortably, not supporting both people.) So long as a guy meets that minimum, then anything over it is gravy.”
– Than minimum salary for most is 2-3x what they themselves earn, notwithstanding your healthier perspective. not a scientific conclusion at all, just one based on lot of experience.
vino says
“My point was the “Don’t Marry” t-shirt will make most of women run away faster than the speed of light”
– Just the less-enlightened ones…
“But please don’t take it like I’m challenging anyone on their choice of wardrobe LOL”
– I knew you’d critique wardrobe choices…So much for acceptance.
cinnamon says
vino,
Sorry if that upset you, I thought you were in a joking mood…
What would an enlightened one do?
BTW, thank you for the book recommendation, just finished this weekend 🙂
vino says
I missed Eda’s #138…
“I really don’t know why, but your view of women makes me sad.”
I don’t have a particularly negative view, I think. I think that there are legal incentives and societal ones that reward less-than-altruistic behavior (selfish, self-indulgent, base) towards the opposite sex that way. So if you make something attractive enough (or not unattractive enough), people will do it (Kind of like paying someone NOT to work or like taxing something so much you no longer do it..) I further think we have to acknowledge the lesser parts of our nature in looking at the opposite sex.
I’d think it should make you sad. Or angry, or….?
“I truly believe that there are lots of women who don’t see men as meal tickets and who would be more than happy to contribute equally (emotionally, financially, sexually, and intellectually) in a relationship.”
– I think there are lots, but still a monstrous minority. So much so sorting through the majority to get to the minority is not worth it more often than not.
vino says
I was joking, just didn’t add 😉 after acceptance.
No worries.
vino says
Trust you found the book helpful
cinnamon says
vino,
re: 159
Yes, though in a different way than I anticipated from the description.
A-L says
From the conversation Vino quoted about why women want men with higher salaries: “Sooooo that’s because you or they would want kids and to take time off to have them?” I asked. “Right” she said.
It appears as though the key ingredient for women wanting high salaried spouses, and getting a lot of alimony/child support (See the “Why (Some) Women Might Consider Settling thread) is…the child. If neither of you are inclined towards having children, then I don’t think there’s as much financial pressure for a man’s salary to support a whole family. Also, you don’t have the fears that some men have of losing a large chunk of your salary if you end up divorcing.
But before you place the stay-at-home mom firmly in the corner of the golddigger woman, there are many men who want and expect their wives to stay at home with the kids, and are happy to do so, and it’s not a requirement pushed onto them by their wife.
vino says
cinn:
do tell, if you are comfortable.
A-L,
Good post. Actually, the kids argument is just a rationalization despite whether she 1. wants them; 2. might want them; 3. Don’t/likely don’t want them. Let me explain.
A follow up point to the quote you used is more important – Let’s not forget that the reason she seeks someone who earns more is so HER standard of living doesn’t drop one iota if she wants to have kids. God forbid. So it’s about HER comforts whether there are kids or not.
My point is that the vast majority of women want the guy with more $$ regardless of whether they want kids or not. But they sure are unwilling to reciprocate if they earn far more than the guy. He can stay home with kids, no? This happens, but very rarely indeed.
“But before you place the stay-at-home mom firmly in the corner of the golddigger woman . . . pushed onto them by their wife.”
I agree there are guys who want wife to stay at home with kids. This is, to be blunt, stupid. Not for the emotional reasons, but later legal ones. The problem occurs at divorce. She needs no reason to divorce, legally. If she hasn’t been working for years (b/c she sought a guy who earned much more) she has an annuity via ½ of property, alimony, and child support. It’s the textbook example of a divorce racket. Keep in mind ladies initiate over 70% of divorces. They often don’t start off as goldiggers, but sure become it through divorce, which is really the endgame of what we’re talking about.
That’s part of my issue analytically with this – the far lower earner (either sex) risks little, but stands to gain far more than what they put in, and the higher earner need not do anything wrong to lose it. See Paul McCartney.
In the end, the odds are likely (70% + in CA) that the higher earning guy (since that what women seek in general) will lose ½ or more. I don’t see where that’s a deal that’s a benefit to him, or me for that matter. I see where she can benefit. I see where a child can benefit. I just don’t see where he/me does. By the way, this analysis is gender-neutral – it applies more to the men earn model, since women who earn more almost always do not marry down economically. I say guys should do the same.
I’m not trying to be a contentious SOB, I’m just trying to discuss real, practical, likely issues and hurdles I face as a guy in the dating/marriage world.
cinnamon says
to vino,
Suffice to say, since I already have basic theoretical knowledge within neuropsychology and also PTSD, I found it a very interesting reading.
It is extremely interesting that the circumstances in which we make bonds with people actually have a big influence on the intensity of these bonds, both on the negative but also positive side as in e.g. combat.
Sorry, I’d love to share more, but this is really not the right forum and it is completely out off topic…
blah blah blah says
Too much talk here. Whatever happened to the KISS principle? Go after what you want with reckless abandon and don’t give a sh*t what other people think about you. I think a most successful people fit this profile.
A-L says
Vino,
I don’t view you as a contentious SOB. As you yourself noted in some thread, your manner of delivery is tactful/polite, unlike some other individuals who no longer post here. We obviously have different points of view, but I’m always glad to see things from the other side.
In terms of the divorce/higher-earner issue, look at my latest post on the My Boyfriend is Wonderful, but not Ambitious thread.
In regards to maintaining your lifestyle, I think that’s pretty true of both sexes. I think that men earning the bigger salaries are freer to date a woman with a wider range of salaries because they have more disposable income and can date a poorer woman while still maintaining a very comfortable lifestyle (ie, a guy earning $100k dating a woman earning $40k, with difference of $60k). Whereas men (and women) who earn more moderate salaries aren’t as likely to dip way far below their own salaries (man earning $40k dating a woman who earns $15k, with difference of $25k). The people with more moderate salaries can’t date someone so far below them if they want to maintain their lifestyle. This also goes along with the idea that both parties contribute toward the dating life, at least beyond the first couple of dates (see the who pays thread).
vino says
I see what you’re saying, A-L. I hear you, really I do. But it still doesn’t address the issues of 1. the fact that women generally won’t ‘date down’ in income; and 2. why this is somehow equal and of equal benefit to both. I just don’t see why I should subsidize someone else’s life in any way. What is the proportionate benefit to me? I keep asking because no one answers.
I just think that I should apply the same standards & expectations to ladies’ conduct that is expected of me. Something tells me that almost all women certainly wouldn’t want that. You’re actually seeing that on the other thread…
A-L says
In terms of the benefit of marriage to men, see my most recent post on the other thread.
Why won’t women ‘date down’? I can’t speak about the infintessimal percentage of woman earning $250k, or even the slightly larger group earning $125k, as my salary is nowhere near theirs. But why won’t I date a guy earning $20,000? Because my standard of living would drop to a level that I’m not comfortable with. I can subsidize the guy a bit and maintain my lifestyle, but not a ton more, because I don’t have a ton more disposable income. I agree that the woman and man should split the costs of dating equitably but there are too many things that I enjoy doing that I couldn’t pay for him to do and still do myself.
And in terms of equal benefits, there was an article (http://www.livescience.com/health/070829_men_housework.html) showing that in relationships where there’s a greater income inequality between the two people, the lower-earning female ends up with a larger load of housework, etc, in an equalizing measure.
But if you only want to date women who earn the same amount as you or more, go on ahead.
vino says
A-L,
I liked your post on the other thread. While I do not agree with it, it is well done & thought out. See my response.
I understand your logic & rationale perfectly re: why you won’t date down economically. It makes perfect sense. I happen to share the same philosophy not out of economic necessity, but because the ‘return on investment’ so to speak, simply isn’t there. I’d rather use my money for myself, save, it, or if I’m going to give it away to someone, donate it to animal rescue or something else worthwhile. Just because someone does make far more than another in dating doesn’t mean it’s their responsibility to subsidize the other, no matter which person earns more.
In the end, I just think it’s off-putting to expect someone to do what you (not you personally, the royal ‘you’) are unwilling to do the same in return, whether it be asking a guy out or bearing an equal financial share in dating.
I find it fascinating that so many have a problem with this concept.
JB says
Hello,
When I was young, I never believed it possible women would not initiate conversation with men. Girls talked to boys at school.
In my dating life I was staggered at the inability of women to talk to men. It also struck me that weather at a bar, nightclub or 2 people in a waiting room – it was always the man that started the conversation, and if the man said nothin…nothing was said….
We don’t even get into talking about dating, asking out etc, until we get the initial conversation sorted sorted.
Women dont initialte contact with men :
Reasonable Excuses :
(1) they dont work, have no money or power and are brought up to expect to be asked out, married by 25 with Kids ….woops , applied about 80 years ago. Now women actualy have jobs and money and even drive cars…
2) The woman is younger or shy.
3) The women does initiate conversation – rare – credit to her and the following doesnt apply.
It is not acceptable in 2008, for women to dress up, or go out in any manner that expects men to initiate conversation with them, when they would not do the same to men.
My conclusions are as follows :
1) Women are predictably dull and boring. Its completely predictable for men to go out over a time period and say, the only contact i have with women, is when I speak to them. Whereas to women, we might get rejected, but at least we are unpredictable and exciting.
2) Women perceive themselves as sex objects…along the lines of the way they dress , to attract men. They act in a manner..I have a pair of tits,,,, what can you do for me to have me….not unlike a prostitute. If they acted in an equal manner, based on personality and companionship, they would have no problem speaking to men.
3) Women cannot take rejection (probably the main reason), that is basically based on the fact they place a massive emphasis and value on what they look like as opposed to who they are. Of course that also tells you most women are very shallow. But their fear of rejection, tells you women are generally weak souls.
4) They lack personality and humour and cannot dominate conversation, so dont have confidence to approach men. Women claim they are good at communication, yet are proved by not initiating conversation with men to have an inability to speak to 50% of the population on equal terms.
5) Women see themselves as inferior to men. I also think women feel partly intimidated by men. Just as a child doesnt tend to talk to adults, women seem scared to talk to men they dont know.
6) Women do not like making decisions. They want and expect a man to make the important decisions for them. To them, the man’s decision making is more important than their decision making process. What could be more important than your choice of partner ?
7) They are lazy. They want an easy life. They dont want to put themselves out.
8) They have weak egos. They want their egos boosted and rely on old rules regarding gentlemans chivalry that goes back deep into the last century.
9) Women are takers, not givers, financially , and particularly emotiobnally… They drain off of men. Women are selfish by nature. They know men like compliments, like to be chatted to and initaite conversation, but they dont do it because that is giving and women are selfish.
10) Women want an ego boost. They rely on men to make them feel worthwhile
One thing i will say is that by their own action of not approaching men, they set themselves up as sex objects (yes you not us) and women’s value is therefore firmly placed on their looks.
So when they lose their looks and get older, they lose their value – AND based on how they act to men, it is totally acceptable for men to leave them for a younger and more attractive model….
Michael Ejercito says
Women need confidence as much as men do, that is for sure.
hunter says
To A-L,
Please let us know where the “infintessimal” amount of single women with 250K earnings are/reside.
hunter says
to Michael Ejercito,
Women need confidence? Maybe the never married/single women, ’cause, once they marry, they become powerful beings.
hunter says
To JB,
A womans mind was built to follow a man, that is what frustrates women.
moonsical says
Wow. Hot topic. I hoped to learn something here, and did, with a little nugget about IT geeks from Steve. Also a lot of divergent opinions and hot air. Gosh.
It was shocking to me to learn that there is an opinion from any man on the planet earth that women do not care about their feelings. Do you know how much time women spend with other women trying to figure out how you feel because it’s not expressed or is indecipherable? Hours and hours. Yes, she’s not picking up on her cell because she’s talking to her girlfriend dissecting your last conversation trying to figure out what you meant, how you feel, what you want, and on and on… Luckily as we age become less obsessed with this. Thank god. It’s not a total waste of time, but it does turn out to be just speculative. Here, now, one such conversation I’ve run with some folks:
Okay, so I finally had to drop interest in a man-about-town that was googly eyed over me because though he seemed interested, nearly all the time, and I gave him my contact info and even asked him to get together (everyone said, “He’s just SHY”)…TWICE…and he is responsive, and says things like, “I’d like to take a rain check on that beer.” (big smile) or, “That would be fun sometime but today I have to___.” we have yet to go on a date. Maddening. Frustrating. And I want him to stop being so damn friendly every time I see him (though we’ve never talked more than five minutes alone, once he even hugged me enthusiastically.) (Some are speculating on his sexual orientation, including my Dad.) Why do men do totally cute things like say, “I hope it’s not too long,” (before I see him around again) but not ask a woman out? I have heard he’s not had a girlfriend (“serious or otherwise”) in forever, and though I see him out frequently, only once with a woman, and never again. He always seems happy and excited to see me. He is a self-described geek/nerd type. This went on for six months, and then I gave up. What’s the deal?
moon
D.J says
Women are sexually superior to men,they don’t need to ask a man out for a date.
Men are there to pleasure them..simple!
Alek says
“”If the guy sees a woman smiling and flirting and doesn’t ask her out, then he’s either involved or not interested (lots of reasons why that could be).””
Quite a few studies have confirmed that men are BLIND to these signals. As in 87% of all men can not see mating signals by women (the univeral biological ones)
As for the social signals like smiling and flirting…
The problem is that in a multi-cultural society like ours, everyone you meet has different signals. What’s “just being polite” is “flirting” in another up-bringing.
Its impossible for men to tell if the woman is giving an “approach me signal” or not. Its completely random, way too many factors. And women never take this into account. If she gives a signal and he doesn’t approach, she takes it personally or declares him a loser. The truth is that he knew there’s just a 10% chance she was interested (from his standpoint).
So, stop telling women that if men don’t run around initiating at every opportunity that they’re not interested. Its very damaging and untrue. It just creates more sad distrust among the genders.
Both genders should just communicate more, and in more direct ways. Screw subtlety.
Greg says
People are morons. There are very good situations for women to ask out a man. When the guy is really shy and it cannot be helped, that would make his LIFE if a woman asked him out (trust me). Also, when there are too many women for a guy to consider at once, again another great time. And then there is me, who is in both boats…..just be glad you are not me.
starthrower68 says
I have a friend who expects a woman to come to him, but he says that he will be in control of the relationship. Not sure what I think of this. It almost seems like its his way or not at all. Guys, what say you?
Joe says
Well, if it’s his way or the highway, and you play along 100% of the time, it looks like he does control the relationship…
starthrower68 says
Joe,
Well, ok yes, I guess that seems kind of obvious. He can control the relationship, but he cannot control me. I have grave concerns about such a situation and am not thinking this is a good thing for me to get involved in. But perhaps I’m in error, thinking that I’ll get anything different than this if I want a masculine, assertive guy? My belief is, a masculine, assertive guy will pursue and make sure a woman knows of his interest and intentions. He will not require her to do all the travelling to be with him, initiate all the contact, etc. I believe a guy who is truly interested in me will not expect me to jump through hoops then tell me that he will be in control of the relationship. C’mon fellas, gimme some help here.
An introvert says
Nonsense.
This advice is not at all applicable to introverted men .. who would rather want the women to ask them out (and they don’t consider it rude, masculine, desperate or any of that bullshit that extroverts come up with).
Rave says
This is just more brain washing bullshit garbage. I for one would love to have a woman ask me out for a change. That way it takes all the pressure off me having to go up to the girl, get to know her, risk making a fool of myself, and risk getting rejected and blown off within the first 5 seconds of her meeting me.
With women you need to be a god damn mindreader to know what they’re thinking about you at all times, because of brain washing garbage like this article that manipulates a woman’s brain into dividing the sexes. All women have to do is be upfront with a guy. If you like someone just ask them out DON”T beat around the bush like this guy advises. Guys have 1000X times more pressure than a woman does these days. So if you like the guy just go up to him ask him out and whatever this article tells you to do, DO THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF IT!!!
The InBetweener says
Hey Evan, from one Leo to another, thanks for sticking up for us shy dudes. 😉 (referring to the contradiction at the end of this particular piece) Describes me to a certain degree.
Sam says
I’m not intimidated by a strong woman and I love to see interest on her part, but if it’s too soon in an online communication cycle I can be bothered.
(note, I virtually exclusively date online)
It depends on the circumstances of the date. I live in a suburb about 40 minutes and $10 from a central city. The girls in the central city are rarely willing or able to come out to see me, so it’s always me going in to see them for the first date. If she has not put much time or effort into emailing and talking to me on the phone and she expects me to spend almost 90 minutes going into the city to meet for what might just be a 1 hr coffee date I am dismayed.
The “meet me at a location that’s way more convenient for me than it is for you and then pay for my coffee/dinner/drink” thing gets tiresome. (you try it girls) Investing time in me signals sincere interest, so I prefer to only date women who have spent time getting to know me.
I don’t take that long to ask a girl out, so chances are, if she’s asking me out it’s right off the bat and I my “casual quickie hi and bye I go out with five men a week” dating alarm goes off.
I’m not shy. I’ll ask you out if you’re interesting. You don’t need to ask me.
Shelagh says
hmm… interesting. ^^^ I asked out one of the “shy guys” mentioned in this article and he’s great! Far better than any guy I’ve ever dated and I know for sure it’s a mutual feeling. I think he’s just shy around certain women though because he doesn’t seem timid otherwise. Either way it was a great idea.
James says
I have to agree with the last few posts. There is no reason why women can’t ask men out. I’ve had many ask me out, if they were too uncomfortable with the direct approach sometimes they would have their friends ask me or give their friends a note to give to me. I love this! There is no greater feeling in the world when ANY gender shows interests. Guys who say they don’t like to approached first are probally insecure with themselves, ANY guy has to have a few screws loose too deny he does not like being shown interest by women.
I agree with Rave, more brainwashing balony, these people are trying to market off of mens insecurities. I am definitely a mans mans, i was in the military and work a job most “alpha males” would be too scared too ever even try for a minute. I am an introvert myself. I have the ability to be in control when i have too but its no big thing to me because i’m secure enough with my own manhood to begin with. Its the men who are afraid of women approaching them first who i think have self-esteem issues.
Trust me on this one, most men do like to be approached or at least be shown interest. What should be important is the relationship itself, not how it happened. I will be fair, if a women don’t approach me or show me some type of interest then i will assume they aren’t interested in me and then i will move on! (i’ve done my fair share of approaching myself). If someone is interested in someone than that person should do something to let the other person know it regardless of gender.
Nikki says
All I have to say to this post is that men and women are NOT THE SAME! Figure out what your role is in this world and be comfortable with it. It will NEVER be interchangeable and you can’t get it back once you give it away. One person is the Lead and the other is to be lead. If men want to be waiting by the phone and hoping to be asked out after 2.5 million years……Well enough said!
James says
The double standard needs to be eliminated, women obviously have some differences with men. However women today vote, have large career opportunities, have positions of power, its not 1955 anymore.
My whole argument is that if a women likes a guy they HAVE to expect do some work. Even if a women don’t ask out a guy first the least she can do is let the guy know she is interested, i’ve had many women do this by asking a friend to tell me, give me a note, or even make small talk with me, then if i was interested i would ask the women out on a date. THE WOMAN HAS TO SHOW A GUY SOMETHING!!
I know ALOT of women in and out of bad relationships and alot of them have kids that are abandoned by most of the “men” they were with, and they repeat the same cycle over and over again because they are “traditional” and don’t do anything for themselves to try to get a decent man.
I never blindly go up to a woman to ask them out, prefer meeting through nuetral setups like through friends, or if i see or talk to a certain girl through doing a similar routine like if i see her at a checkout counter regularly, maybe at a certain course we are taking together, etc. Men and women are different, but mens feelings get hurt just as much, there is NO reason why a woman can’t do more even if they don’t like being too aggressive.
A woman who thinks she should always be pursued and feels she don’t need to do anything to show interest is from my experience an extremly selfish woman, they will always attack guys like me and they obviously don’t appreciate the different personallity traits that many men have to offer. Thank god for the growing numbers of strong and intelligent women out there!
Michael says
So Nikki, you think women should just stay at home.
Maybe you should move to Saudi Arabia, where male and female roles are very traditional.
everett552 says
My whole take on the matter is this……….People make dating harder than what it is. If two people are attracted to each other then it shouldn’t matter who makes the first move or who ask who out first, it’s gonna be either yes or no. Every man is not the same and neither are women. Some men like aggresive women and some don’t.
Some women like a man who follow traditional roles and some don’t. Some women have the patience to wait months for a man to ask her out while others feel like “either he gonna except or he’s not”! If a man is giving you the eye, giving off flirtatous stares or vibes and that he’s feeling you, then I don’t think it’s anything wrong for a woman to make the first move or ask him out. Just because a woman is capable of handling rejection well or is confident and secure within herself to take initiative, doesn’t mean she’s desperate and insecure. Everyone @ some point in their life has been or will be rejected, it’s part of the game but it’s not the end of the world .
Everyone you find attractive is not going to feel the same way and vice versa, still, it’s not the end of the world. Everyone is not the same and everyone tastes, desires, wants and needs are different. Just because a man ask a woman out first doesn’t guarantee a love connection nor a future relationship.
After reading a few dating and relationship blogs & websites over the past several months, I now have a better understanding of the men and how they think and feel. I have learned to take dating with a grain of salt. Take it for what it is and not for what it’s worth until he shows you otherwise. If he’s putting in half a#@ effort or none @ all then i’m bouncing, no questions asked, he just wasn’t that into me.
Kitaia says
You said, “Thank you for calling attention to this subtle nuance. Online, YES, ask him out – as long as you’re being coy and flirtatious, rather than over-complimentary”
What?
Evan Marc Katz says
There is a “wrong” way to hit on men online, and it starts with compliments. I call it the Pedestal Principle. Once you put him up on a pedestal, he’s immediately looking down at you.
So if your email is, “Dear John, I read your profile and was so impressed. You’ve got an amazing smile and are so funny. There aren’t many guys on here who grab my attention but you did. I love the fact that you have a dog and are close to your sisters. Family’s very important to me and it’s refreshing to find a guy who feels the same way. I know you probably get lots of attention on here, but if you could check out my profile and write back when you get a chance, that’d be great. I really hope to hear from you soon. Michelle”
Yeah, this is all wrong. He’s already won you over. There’s no spark. No challenge. No chase. No flirting. Just straightforward, “You’re great, please pick me” introduction. It’s weak.
To learn a better way to flirt with men – seduce them even – go to http://www.findingtheoneonline.com. Disc 4, I believe.
James says
I disagree with you on this, most men don’t enjoy chasing women and you shouldn’t have to. Guys that want a serious relationship don’t enjoy chasing women. Straight forwardness is not a bad thing and is something lacking in meeting people, most people don’t want games and your encouraging it. Women that make themselves a challenge i do not bother with, i appreciate a woman when they are straightforward with me. What should be important is two compatable people meeting each other and being in a loving relationship and liking each others own individual personalities not how you got someone or playing games, i think there is enough games in society as it is today, no wonder there are so many single mothers and unwanted kids today. The only men from my experience that enjoy a challenge or the chase are either players, men who need to be in control because they are insecure with themselves to begin with or straightout jerks, i knew alot of these types of guys. I personally have no problems meeting women by doing my own thing and not taking other peoples advice and i think both men and women should do the same, be STRAIGHTFORWARD and let someone know if your interested, dating doesn’t have to be so hard, these so called dating “experts” obviously don’t want dating to be simple or they would lose money by people not buying their books, dvds’, etc.
Evan Marc Katz says
It’s great when men are straightforward and confident enough to approach women. We pretty much know that’s how it should work. Unfortunately, for better or worse, when women do the same thing to men? It doesn’t work. They’re seen as weak or needy or desperate or masculine or any number of unfair, unflattering things – just for being STRAIGHTFORWARD. I didn’t say this is fair, I didn’t endorse it; I’m just pointing it out.
So would it work if a woman asked YOU out? Yes. Too bad you don’t speak for most men. It’s my job to do that.
And it’s certainly not so I can make 14 cents on the next copy of “Why You’re Still Single”.
Harrumph.
Michael says
They’re seen as weak or needy or desperate or masculine or any number of unfair, unflattering things – just for being STRAIGHTFORWARD. I didn’t say this is fair, I didn’t endorse it; I’m just pointing it out.
If they are weak, needy, or desperate, men can take advantage of them. Would that not be the ideal person with whom to have a relationship?
James says
You don’t speak for most men, i’m not just describing myself but most other men as well. People, whether they are a guy or girl who truly like the other person for their individual qualities obviously would like to get to know that person better with the least amount of resistance as possible. If a women see’s a guy they are really interested in and they can also do more then fling their hair, wink or smile without asking a guy out first like making small talk, ask the guy a question or even tell one of their friends to tell you they are interested in you, that way the guy could still ask the girl out on a date first and there is no guessing or worrying about rejection then that way you can get down to what really is and should be most important, to see if there is compatability.
Many women are flirts and teases to begin with and many women from my experience will flirt even if they are going out with someone already and on many occasions are even married already. Both men and women need to do more if they are interested in each other, life is too short to let the other person of your dreams pass by because you reduced yourself to doing what other people told you to do.
I KNOW MANY successful relationships where women initiated contact first, my gram and pap met by my gram making the first move on my pap and they were married for over 50 years (he was a decorated WWII army vet, boxer and coal miner, not a wimpy guy in my book. My mom made the first move on my dad and he was a Vietnam veteran, they were happily married for 15 years before he passed away from cancer. I know many friends and colleages where the woman made made the first move and their marriages are great. MOST MEN DON’T want a challege or to chase women, at least that i ever knew (that is alot), they want a women to show they like them even if the guy makes the first move, NOT PLAY GAMES!! Yes there were some women who were too aggressive and made themselves seem too needy and that was a turnoff for me, the same is true for guys who do this with women as well. HOWEVER, a women who shows me she interested in me without being too assertive does not strike me as “desperate or needy”, she is giving me my choice by letting me know ” hey i like you and it is alright for you to approach me, if not then that is ok and i will just move on”. That to me is not desperate but a scenerio most men appreciate, i am not in the minority on this one.
Carl says
Hey everyone, just saw this thread so I thought I would add my $.02.
It is generally agreed that women “marry up”.
However consider this point.
If I am a man making $250,000 a year, what is MY incentive to marry? I can bang 20 year olds until the day I die. Probably 2 or 3 at the same time. I can go to foreign lands and bang women there.
Marriage would be the dumbest thing a rich man can do. Why would I risk at least half my money and let her receive MY house (while I continue making payments on it) in a divorce that she could initiate because she was “bored”.
Sorry to be so cruel, but it is the truth.
Response to Deathslayer says
Deathslayer:
I like most of what you said but have to disagree with you here:
“Just remember that men get no status from rejecting women, but women do get status from rejecting men. Sometimes they reject men for sport, to impress their girlfriends, or to satisfy their ego and sense of superiority.”
I don’t like rejecting men. I want them to be the right one everytime, but if I’m not feeling it I am honest. I feel bad though, and it gives me no satisfaction. I have been rejected too. I know how it feels. I really wish I could just meet the right man already and not have to reject or be rejected any more.
Liz says
Oh my god — the bitterness on behalf of both genders in this thread is so sad. I hope you can all sufficiently hide it when you’re out in the world; bitter shines like pregnancy glow.
sayanta says
Carl, #197-
I’m guessing phrases like, “emotional support,” “shared partnership,” and “spiritual love” aren’t the ‘cool’ things to shoot for, for you.
sayanta says
Liz-
Love the pregnancy glow analogy- except one’s good and one’s bad. lol
Oh, yeah, bitterness gives you frowns. And wrinkles. It’s like smelly gas seeping from your body.
Bill says
Sayanta #200
A man can get all those things without risking his future financial security.
What Karl is saying, is that men have a huge risk in getting married, and his question would be: “What’s the benefit that mitigates this risk?”
Karl R says
Bill said: (#202)
“What Karl is saying,”
That would be what Carl (#197) is saying. There is a wide difference between his opinion and mine.
Carl said: (#197)
“It is generally agreed that women ‘marry up’.”
Historically, perhaps. Today about 26% of women outearn their husbands, and the percentage is growing.
http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2009/jan/wk1/art05.htm
Carl said: (#197)
“If I am a man making $250,000 a year, what is MY incentive to marry? I can bang 20 year olds until the day I die. Probably 2 or 3 at the same time.”
Are you making $250,000 per year? Only 6% of all Americans even earn $100,000 per year. Most men don’t earn that much money. Most women don’t marry men who earn that much money.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States
Can you consistently bang 20 year olds without paying for their services? Most men are a bit squeamish about sleeping with sex workers. Aside from the safety/health issues, I’m not willing to have sex with someone who doesn’t have any emotional connection with me.
Carl said: (#197)
“Why would I risk at least half my money and let her receive MY house (while I continue making payments on it) in a divorce that she could initiate because she was ‘bored’.”
If you want to be a father, you’re not likely to get custody of your kids just because their mother was one of many you were “banging”. And if she has custody (or even if you have joint custody), you still will be paying.
And if you’re worried about your wife being “bored”, why don’t you try being a bit more interesting to be around?
Bill said: (#202)
“men have a huge risk in getting married,”
That might be true for rich men marrying pretty, young golddiggers. I earn slightly more than my girlfriend. She has more assets than me. I would say that our financial risk is roughly equal.
And I’m inclined to agree with Liz (#199). If you’re that bitter and antagonistic toward the opposite sex, your dating success is going to be minimal or nonexistant … regardless of whether the man or woman is doing the asking.
Selena says
Good one Karl with a K.
C. O'Donnell says
Evan, I truly believe you hit the nail on the head with the exception you made for shy guys. 🙂 My shy guy is a year younger than me, hopelessly devoted to his engineering problem sets and “geeky” hobbies, and now… me! It took me sucking it up and asking him to watch a favorite movie of his together for him to loosen up around me. He was so nervous around me the few weeks we hung out together, that he couldn’t even speak without stuttering, or saying something that didn’t make sense. We got together “officially” after I asked him to hang out twice, and HE asked ME to hang out the third time (not dates–“hanging out” because we’re college students, staying on campus for all of this). It took being the most friendly and warm and attentive I’ve ever been towards a guy for him to get the hint that I was interested. I laid it on thick with the compliments. It was all genuine and from the hear, since I really appreciated him as a person. I was just rather vocal about my appreciation! Still, he was unsure of my interest, and thought I was sending him mixed signals (conveyed to me via a mutual friend of ours)! It took me asking him to spend time alone together a couple of times for him to realize that maybe “we” could work. I am a confident, unusually tall attractive female, and believe in “faking it until you make it” in terms of how to approach life in general. Waiting around for prince charming would have gotten me nowhere when this wonderful boy that came into my life (yay for joining a faith community!). I truly believe that if more women cast aside their high-minded ideals about the man having to make all of the moves and act like a fratstar and be a smooth-talker, they would find someone that fulfills all of their important criteria… and more. I was once of those women. So glad that I had a change of heart, and attitude towards men. On a lighter note, there’s just something really sexy (in many ways) about a man in glasses. 😉
Yacul says
The woman CAN ask the man out. It does not indicate desperation or anything else negative but it shows that she is just trying to get what she wants (something we all should do). If they don’t ask, however, they should at least hint that they want the guy to and give hime the reassurance he needs.
Yacul says
Amen to C. O’Donnell’s comments!
Bob says
My sincerest apologies Karl…I really apreciate your voice of reason here, and would never want to misrepresent you!
Christina says
How does a gal know that, the guy she is singling is shy guyor he is not interested. I think a shy guy will always be looking for the gals signal and respond to it and a guy who is not interested will just ignore the signal. So girls if you encounter shy guy just give him signals and make him confident
anonymous says
A women can ask a man out. It shows she feels powerful and has high self esteem and confidence. Maybe she’s flirting with a man who she thinks likes her back but doesn’t seem like he has the balls to ask her out himself. This could be a big sigh of relief for you shy gentlemen.
You gotta take risks! Maybe some men don’t like being asked out by women but women and men should have the same power in finding love. If a women feels like this could be a great guy to date, why should she pass him up just because he’s not making the first move?
The answers to this question could very easily be applied to this question of women asking men out on a date.
Of course women want to be asked out by the man first, but hey. things happen. and rather than being straightforward about it, play around and subtly ask.. he might see where you are going and end up asking you out. oh the possibilities are endless.
C O'Donnell says
Thanks, Yacul! My shy guy is the one taking all the initiative now. He definitely stepped up to the plate. Such an attentive, caring boyfriend.
Andrew says
I don’t think it is all true that a man is not into a women if he is not making the first move and all the other moves, initiating and asking her out, and I know 2 girls who made the first move on their current boyfriend, initiated and asked them out, one has been together for 5 years and the other for 7 and a half years, so I don’t feel there is anything wrong with a woman initiating.
Joe says
Men and women should both take the initiative and ask the people they’re interested in out on dates. I don’t see why men should have to make all the effort; we like to be sought after as well.
Markt says
i’ve been reading through all the posts and 1 thing has struck me about the way the conversation keeps going and 1 thing in particular seems to be the problem.
Its the one thing both women and men share and would seem to be the main problem. Its called ego. Everyone seems to be so afraid to initiate. The way i feel about it is that if you love yourself first then it matters not if you get rejected by a woman because you still love yourself. Most men fear rejection because they think that if a woman rejects them it somehow makes them less of a person. They especially fear this happening in front of other men.
Before you say anything ive had direct experience of women leading me on to the point of initiating conversation bascially telling me they want my babies and then deciding once i chase them that i am not worthy and suddenly turn cold towards me. Did i get knocked down by this? Nope and its something i learnt the hard way.
No woman will ever make me feel bad about myself no matter what happens. Thus i now approach them in a manner which screams that i love myself and no matter what things they say to me it doesn’t affect me in the slightest or change anything in my life. i don’t even get it a second thought. Once you learn this your success and happiness with women will grow exponentially. They want this too because really what woman want most is a man secure in himself.
Think of it from a womans perspective what kind of a man are you to have a relationship with and be a protector of a family if you can’t even take a womans scorn. Just let it bounce off you and most importantly love yourself no matter what.
Just my 2 cents,
Mark
johnny doe says
Guys, this is the most interesting discussion forum I’ve seen, and the article strikes a chord with me, because I have only went out with women, and somewhat hit it off, when I was asked out by them. I can’t remember a single girl that I got to go out with me that really went anywhere.
Michele says
It is perfectly ok to ask a guy out! it’s almost 2011 ! geesh, what is wrong with people. I am far from being masculine and all the other things that confident woman were called by one of the emails..seriously, sounds like this person has male ego issues. Remember ladies, go for what you want, some women are CONFIDENT in who they are and some are not, so go get your man..lol
Jill says
Great article. I agree Evan. I especially enjoyed the cute contradiction at the end. Made me laugh.
Lucinda says
“No woman will ever make me feel bad about myself no matter what happens. Thus i now approach them in a manner which screams that i love myself and no matter what things they say to me it doesn’t affect me in the slightest or change anything in my life. i don’t even get it a second thought. Once you learn this your success and happiness with women will grow exponentially. They want this too because really what woman want most is a man secure in himself.”
Thanks, this is what I exactly think as a woman.
And I consider myself as a feminine woman I have my ways to ask a guy out in a sweet way. Otherwise maybe he could be busy with “saving the world ” or something and didnt notice my presence.
I also learnt that what if’s and what if it could have happened are the worst and way more better to be proactive a bit.
RuDee says
I am really, really struggling with the concept of keeping myself still and ‘letting the magic happen…or not.’
Ladies, HOW do you keep it cool when a guy you’re really into talks to you (a lot) over an extended period of time (weeks) but hasn’t asked you out? I get that there’s nothing to be done but…how do you keep zen/from losing your wits?
Has anyone had someone take forever to ask them out before it happened? DId the relationship go anywhere after that?
Lucinda says
Okay, I asked the guy out. I thought he is a shy one. His answer convinced me I will never ever do it again. He said basically he just want me to give him a bj and cum to my tits. Guys face rejection?! Yeah, maybe, but not humiliation. But at least I learnt my lesson 🙁
Diana says
Lucinda, I am sorry that happened to you. Just know that the guy is a total sleaze bag, and it’s way better you found that out now.
Bob says
I completely disagree with your thesis. I think that relationships should be balanced in almost every way, including the inititiation. If a girl likes a guy, she should ask him out. If a woman is not willing to ask a guy out because she thinks “it’s the guy’s job” then she doesn’t deserve to be asked out herself. PERIOD. Women who refuse to ask men out just because they think that men should do it are just using that excuse to be lazy and to avoid having to face the fear of rejection.
I don’t understand why any man would have a problem with being asked out by a girl. It’s a display of courage, confidence, inititative, a testament of deep interest in you, and it’s unspeakably flattering. There is nothing masculine about a girl asking out a guy. And you can’t just say that it’s bad for a girl to ask a guy out, that’s over generalizing. YOU may not like being asked out because you feel demasculized but not all men are eco-feministic and insecure. Some of us may actually prefer to be asked out as opposed to the other way around, such as myself. Think about it, if a woman is willing to break the “norm” of society then that is a true display of interest. There’s no better way to know that she likes you a lot than if she asks you out herself.
My argument is that if she isn’t willing to lift a finger to talk to you then why should you do the same for her? Don’t ask for what you’re not willing to give.
Selena says
@Bob #223
Did you bother to read the previous 222 comments before posting your own? Women not asking men out is not at all about them “not willing to lift a finger” at all. It’s rather that’s it’s pointless because more often than not the guy who doesn’t ask himself is taken, gay, not interested or only interested for no strings sex, Or…someone who will prove to be more trouble than they’re worth…someone with a bad attitude toward women for example.
Bob says
@ Selena #224
I read some of them, but not all. I didn’t realize that my comment was being directed particularly to you and not any of the other 221 comments that were also posted on here. I appologise for the inconvenience.
In response: I suppose that I could understand if a woman chooses to be passive toward initiating a conversation with a man for those specific reasons. But what if the man does show interest? What if she notices that he’s giving her all the inviting signs that a woman would typically give a man? Would it be okay to talk to him then?
On a further note: so women choose to not approach men for those specific reasons. Okay, so what if men suddenly began to think the exact same thing about women who don’t ask them out? Would women become more open to contributing or would they just come up with a new reason to remain lackadaisical?
SS says
Bob @223 is a perfect example of the contradictory and often hypocritical types of folks I met in real life when I was single and dating.
They (men and women) would ALWAYS tell me when I was speaking of a guy that I liked, that I needed to ask that man out. Yet in THEIR relationships — the ones that ended in marriage or some other long-term commitment that was satisfying to both — everything happened the traditional way.
So for all the men who said, “SS! Ask that man out! Woman up and do it,” I asked them how they got involved with their wives and girlfriends. I knew the answer too, so my question was done mostly to make a point. ALL of those men had met their partners somewhere and ASKED THEM OUT.
I remember one particular man who said that the modern way of dating seemed to be more non-traditional “hanging out” and that men didn’t really ask women on dates anymore. I pointed out to him that he had told me in the previous week that he had met his wife at an event and when she mentioned that she was new to the area (and very single) he made sure to ask for her number at the end of the event and then proceeded to… wait for it… ASK HER OUT ON A DATE.
So I asked him, why were the so-called rules supposed to be different for me, when it was very clear that all of HIS relationships, and those of his male friends, started from THEM asking women out on dates?
Same with women who would direct me in this manner. I asked them how they ended up with their boyfriends/husbands, and all said the usual, “through church, through school, through work,” and mentioned that their partners ASKED THEM OUT and that’s how the relationships began.
So finally, seeing that people were advising me to do the exact opposite of what worked for them, I stopped asking men out. And when I met my future husband, he asked me out.
Meanwhile, I still overhear random conversations… typically involving men like Bob… who say that they love when a woman asks them out… and somehow, few, if any of these women, ever become their girlfriends.
And it’s these same men, multiple years later, who remain unattached and see no irony in the fact that they’re sitting back and wagging their fingers at all these “lazy” women and saying it’s the women that need to ask men out more…
bob says
SS 226
Please elaborate more. I don’t understand why I’m a hypocrite when women want the right to vote, to make equal revenue, and demand the same amount of job opportunities; yet remain unquestionably content with the arena where they have it made in the shade (the dating world). You all want equal rights, except when it comes to relationships, now all of a sudden we have reached an exception to civil equality. Hmm….
Women expect men to: ask them out; pick them up when gas is $3.50 a gallon; hold the door open; give them their coat in cold weather; pay for dinner; compliment them numerous times; buy flowers; throw away dignity; write poems; sing songs to them; buy candy; spend an entire month’s pay check on expensive jewelry; etc (feel free to add anything that I may have forgot). Now among all of these things, how often is it that women expected to return the favor?
I don’t find it unusual at all that you are being defensive about my stance against this unbalanced system that is designed to cator you. Certainly the rich would get upsdet if all the poor people on the bottom of the chain were to wake up one day and identify the fact that the rich demand everything but aren’t willing to give anything in return. What a tragedy that would be for the rich! So as far as irony goes, I guess this would be an even better example.
As far as you and I go, I congradulate you on your successful marriage. I could only hope that the percent of successful marriages only begins to increase over the course of the imminant future. I’m glad that you and your husband could set the example for the rest of us.
And as for me personally, I am single, but I’m also only 22 and in the process of moving to a different country to go to a school there. It wouldn’t be very wise to get in a serious relationship with somebody who is going to be half way around the world from me.
All I’m saying is that women need to stop being so stubborn and quit acting like they’re higher up the dating food chain than men are. I don’t think that women should always ask men out, I’m just stating that there should be a balance. And not surprisingly, some people are upset about me saying this…..
Selena says
@#225
You weren’t writing about women approaching men or initiating conversations in your FIRST POST Bob. You were writing about women specifically asking men out. Big difference. Women are not being stubborn, nor “higher up the food chain” by not asking men out. Go back and read all the comments. Learn something.
SS says
You’re 22. Okay, that explains it all. Did you come over here from a PUA/Game site with that kind of attitude?
Good luck in your dating journey.
Karl R says
Bob said: (#223)
“Women who refuse to ask men out just because they think that men should do it are just using that excuse to be lazy and to avoid having to face the fear of rejection.”
“Some of us may actually prefer to be asked out as opposed to the other way around, such as myself.”
Bob, if those two statements are true, doesn’t that imply that you’re lazy and prefer to avoid facing the fear of rejection?
Bob says
@ Selena #228
In the second sentence of that post I said: “I think that relationships should be balanced in almost every way, including the initiation.”
That sentence was my thesis statement. My thesis being, “Women shouldn’t require that men always ask them out. Women should also contribute to starting relationships just as men are expected to.”
Everything else that was mentioned beneath that sentence were examples that I was providing to in order support the argument behind my thesis. Never was my intention to incinuate that “women should specifically ask men out” ask you claim I did. If I did not elaborate on this enough for you, then I’m sorry. Next time I will be sure to write an entire paragraph that explains “everything written beneath this paragraph are examples of why I believe in this. But do not portray the following examples provided in this post as being my endgame message.” 😉
As I previously mentioned, I DID read through a lot of the comments. But unfortunately I have more important activities to fulfill than to read every single comment on this thread. This isn’t the first thread on this topic that I have added my 2 cents on, so I can assure you that I am learning a lot!
P.S. There is no reason to be so mean!
Bob says
SS – No I didn’t. And thank you for the luck, I hope to find a nice Chinese girl when I move there. And I wish you success with your marriage as I stated earlier.
——————————————————————————–
Karl R – I have asked women out in the past, but I’m not entirely closed off from doing it ever again. My only problem is that if women aren’t willing to step up then why should I be willing to do so for them? Women’s attitude of “I like you but you have to ask me out” has developed an aversion inside me against giving women the satisfaction of being asked out themselves.
Yes, I prefer to be asked out but I don’t necessarily require it. The women who I will never ask out are the ones who aren’t willing to ask men out themselves. I just don’t feel like they deserve the attention that they’re not willing to put out. Get at me if you got anymore questions.
Sayanta says
#230- LOL- good catch!
Selena says
Do you really expect Chinese girls (in China?) to ask you out Bob? Have you studied much about that culture?
Bob says
I was in there last year and I’m studying the language as we speak. Chinese women are more aggressive than western women are.
I like how you emphasize on the you as if you know what I’m like. Just because I stand against your side of an issue doesn’t mean that I’m not an alright person IRL. But if you want to believe otherwise, go right on ahead, 🙂
Bob says
Lol… I like how you emphasize on the “you” as though know what I’m like in real life. I really am a nice person, sorry if none of you agree. Just remember that it was all of you who started to provoke me. My initial post was to the author of the article, not to any of you. So whatever negativity was intended behind that you was probably a theory of your own volition and not something that you think I did to offend you.
To answer your first question: I don’t expect anyone to do anything. If it happens it happens, if it doesn’t it doesn’t. But even if I did “expect” that to happen, how would that make me any different than a woman who thinks that men should only ask her out?
Second question: I was actually in China last year, that was when I found this school that I want to go study at. As of now I am studying Mandarin (Chinese) with Rosetta Stone while I generate money for tuition. So I guess you could say that I know a teeny-tiny bit about their culture. I have pictures on my facebook incase you don’t believe me.
Shay says
Bob is right , why men should ask out women that are not willing to do the same and ask men out ?
why it has to be one sided ?
men also have the right to feel wanted and attractive don’t they ?
if a woman doesn’t willing to ask out a man , why she’s expecting him to do the same for her ?
the phrase “don’t ask what you are not willing to give” is so right !
Ana says
Give me a break. All my married friends are relationships where the woman pursued the man.
Actually….a woman asking a guy out on a date isn’t seen as desperate or needy – in fact – the men view the woman as “too smart” and THAT’s the reason why sometimes it backfires. The man thinks “I really like this hot chick…but…since she’s ballsy enough to ask me out, she’s gonna want things her way all the time.” THAT’S the reason why women asking men out generally doesn’t work. Not for the reasons you think.
But yes for shy guys, women absolutely HAVE to ask the man out. Because he’s never gonna ask you, but he wants to.
Jadafisk says
But this rhetorical guy’s version of “too smart” sounds like everyone else’s version of “too aggressive”, which is what Evan warned. There’s lots of reasons it doesn’t work out, though…what’s glossed over is that many of those reasons are the same reasons that it doesn’t always work out when guys do it. Failure is part of the process, but part of the issue is that a lot of women don’t want to “waste time” with guys who were never really all that interested in them in the first place. As we all know, guys regularly ask women out who they were never really that interested in in the first place, but the women see not asking guys out as a way to “hedge their bets.” Some of these women may contend that if he’s too shy to ask her on a date, he’s not the type of man they’re interested in (less interesting, socially awkward, sexually inexperienced, passive aggressive, and/or less traditional), or he’ll also be less likely to lead the relationship to subsequent steps, which the guy is expected to do.
Brian says
I think women should ask men out. I believe in equality and that includes the responsibility for initiating contact. I think it’s sexist to expect a guy to do all the work and risk rejection more because somehow it doesn’t matter as much if a guy feels rejected. Sorry but I think your advice is bad/not a good mindset for having a long, equal relationship. I don’t believe it is the man’s “role” to ask a women out just like I don’t think it’s the woman’s “role” to do housework.
Bill Wakeham says
Yes women should ask men out. Women want an equal world with men, apart from…………..asking men out. They are scared to death to do it. Ive had women eye me up for months, smiling at me, staring at me with their mouths wide open, and what happens when I hand them my number? Absolutely nothing. That is apart from laughing at me and nudging their mates when I see next. Equal world? EARN IT!
bobi says
and i have to say deathslayer has completed an understanding that i needed in relation to honesty with people, i think you are seeing clearly and i thank you for the effort you wrote here, its great. what is happening is so frustrating and hidden and denied it has become putrid.
TiA says
knowing what i know now, i wouldn’t do it. ive done it before, with men who flirted with me and clearly seeemed interested, but that’s all they were doing. and i asked them out .. lol. I’d rather let a man ask me out cold, unless we are already friends or something and i suggest something. in the end none of us want to risk rejection too much , c’est la vie.
Bill Wakeham says
If a man doesnt ask a woman out, he is either involved, or not interested. Ive never heard such rubbish. I dont ask women out because, ive had women give me the come on for months, and when ive given them my number, ive heard nothing, and been humiliated when ive seen her next. Also, im shy because I suffer with PTSD. So it seems I have had it, because women are too lazy, stupid, and too scared to ask a bloke out, even though they want an equal world.An equal world that is without, doing a job they should do but wont, its left to the guy to feel an idiot every time. Women think they are stronger than men, ho ho ho.
SS says
I never called men who handed me their numbers and expected me to call them.
If they wanted to talk to me, they could ask for mine and then call me.
Worked well for me and it let me know which men were serious, and which men were not. I’d do it all over again the exact same way if I was ever single again.
Ana says
Look men are not going to ask you out no matter how beautiful you are. Most guys don’t want to deal with rejection, especially if you’re from a different race/culture/religion or if you’re really pretty. A woman should ask a man out for a coffee. Do not ask him out for dinner or a movie. Too much pressure. Coffee is a polite, friendly gesture that can’t be taken as too aggressive. Go on the date if he says yes. THAT’S IT. Leave it at that. Give him your number and let him contact you afterwards. If he doesn’t, ask the next man out for coffee.
Hope says
#52 Karen says “I am definitely listening to Evan’s advice on this one. I am always complimented on my looks, my figure and my charismatic personality. I also receive many dinner date offers.”
I’m going to listen to Evan’s advice, but it does make me sad. I’m always complimented on my looks, my figure, my charismatic personality and my intelligence. I’m never asked out.
I met a man at a party recently who spent half an hour complimenting how amazing he thought I was and looked, and spent time talking to me. When I arrived home, I found he had sent me an email saying how nice it was to chat with me and he hoped to see me again. We’re in a group and, chances are, we would come across each other 5 or 6 months down the line. After a week of thinking about nothing but this man, and being egged on by girlfriends, I broke and sent an email saying I enjoyed talking to him and asked if he’d like to get coffee. We haven’t met face-to-face yet, but he eventually asked for my number and we spoke for the first time the other day. I’ve somewhat backed off, realizing me asking can be somewhat emasculating. If we wants to see me, I’m going to let him be the one to ask. Otherwise, I won’t contact him again.
I guess I’m just disheartened because, despite how men seem to be attracted to me, I’m never asked out and, of the two men I’ve seen regularly over the past decade, it would not have happened had I not asked them out or called first.
Josh says
Women should ask a guy out if they are interested. Im pretty outgoing being in sales so I never minded taking on the role of the “Alpha Male”. But trying to meet woman ends up feeling like work a lot of times.
Too many times I’ve spent talking to a girl only to find out she has a BF, and that she was just being friendly. I dont want to ask ahead of times because that would be sleazy.
Or I’ll get actually get a number and ask a girl out, she’ll not return the call or even flake after we setup a date.
On the otherside of the spectrum, My friend introduces me to a girl, I try and talk to her but she barely says anything so I move on thinking she wasnt interested. My friend later on tells me that she thought I was nice me and wished that I asked her for her number?!!?! Ughhh
Woman just send to many mixed signals. I’d rather have someone reject me upfront sometimes, it would waste less time.
Lana says
Evan Marc is right. Women never ask a man out. I got tired of men asking me out thru friends. I was so shy, if they asked me to my face I would have run. I had been on two dates in my life at 25 and was tired of waiting. I asked a guy out who was a friend of a friend. The biggest mistake of my life. It gave him all of the power. He was a player and a good one. I am stubborn and would not fall for his games. I broke up with him after 4 months because I did not like the way he was treating me and I wouldn’t have sex with him. It hurt his pride. He asked me back two moths later and I went because I thought he cared about me. He told me later he was worried about me because I was sick. I had two bad bouts of Mono. He was the only person I was dating so he gave it to me. We broke up again two months later. He was dating someone else the same time I was dating him. I knew in my heart he was. I tried to break up with him, he said he wanted us to see other people. He already was. I wouldn’t do that. Two years after we broke up he called me to get my permission to ask out a recently separated friend. She knew he was my first boyfriend and bragged about going out with him to another friend. Someone said it shows he had respect for me since he asked me first. For the life of me I don’t see how. He had his heart broken by someone and was trying to see if I was still interested. He had a house-warming party and invited my friend and none of his friends came. They were all sick. He later kept asking my old roommate to find out if I was the reason why the friend stopped dating him. He was playing games again. He called me and left a message with my roommate to call him back. He would call when he knew I wouldn’t be there. I never called him back. He was using me for some hidden agenda of his own. So, the moral of the story children, women never ask men out.
Flower White says
I NEVER ask men out I show interest with smiles and mirroring body language and correct correspondence-no texting for dates, btw.
Take a personal poll of all the happy couples you may know, who have been together longer than a year-ask them who approached who first! ALL of the women I know who approached their man first are unhappy in the relationship they say their man is emotionally lazy towards them.
Young ladies: NEVER chase a man nor ask him out on a date.
Andy says
If you are an average woman, you need to get out there and chase the man you want because most likely he wont even notice you. Most people are average, but they still want to date someone above average and better. Now since society puts the impetus on men to ask woman out, naturally even the average man will try to date up a higher “number”. This leaves the average woman to either wait and get asked out by a below average or they can take the initiative and chase the man they want. Woman like to complain that they never meet nice men, well its you’re own fault if you sit back and wait for the nice guy to come to you.
Bluebell says
I think who ever asks a first date depends on motive. Some of the reasons may be to have sex, for economic reasons, for a bet, to tell your friends/family about the experience, for marriage etc.
Shayla says
lol!
Exactly, you may have your eye on a guy and you are pretty sure he finds you interesting too. I never ask out guys but I’ll do or say something to get him to ask me out. Guilty as charged. What do they call it? Backleading.
dave says
Never ask a man out! That’s right. Women want to sidestep the rejection that men
get. This is unfair and the reasons women give are completely bogus and out of
whack, and as usual —- selfish. What other unfair double standards do women
offer, sine they like a tilted table so much?
Karl R says
dave said: (#254)
“Women want to sidestep the rejection that men get.”
For a number of women, that is true.
dave said: (#254)
“This is unfair”
What makes you think that this more unfair to men than women?
I do a lot of social dancing. Most of the time, men ask women to dance (rarely vice versa). I more popular as a dance partner than I ever was as a date, but I still get turned down a few times per night.
Almost half the time we go out, my fiancée has the same three complaints:
1. She didn’t get asked to dance enough.
2. There were a few men she really wanted to dance with, but they didn’t ask her to dance.
3. There were a few men she doesn’t like to dance with, and they repeatedly asked her to dance.
(If you substitute the word “date” for “dance,” women frequently make those same complaints on this blog.)
I never have any of those complaints. I get turned down more often than my fiancée does, but I would rather have my problem than hers.
If it bothers you that much to get rejected, then you aren’t getting rejected often enough. Try to get rejected at least once per week. Very soon, it won’t be a big deal.
Helen says
Karl R #255: surely the people in your social circle know your fiancee is engaged, and therefore that she has no “forward” intentions if she approaches another man. So why can’t she be the one asking those few men to dance? Would they be offended?
If that is the case, I’d agree with you; I’d rather have your problems than hers.
As a hypothetical (turning back to dates, not dances): I would imagine that men face a pretty high rejection rate. Maybe if women stepped up and did as much of the initiating, the rejection rates would be about the same, and that’s just something women should get used to and not take too personally. Based on the comments to this post alone, there are clearly men who DON’T want women to ask, and men who DO. So it seems that the more initiating men should pair up with the more receptive women, while the more initiating women should pair up with the more receptive men.
What has never felt right to me is when an assertive and initiating women needs to hide that aspect of herself: to be passive in the dating game. It gives a wrong picture of who she is to the man. But her real self will come out sooner or later, and pretending to be more passive when she is not seems deceptive both to the man and to herself.
Jarvik says
It’s funny how women are so concerned about emasculating a man by asking him out yet when they do get into relationships they often act so boorish and aggressive that the man oftentimes has no option but to apologize just to keep the peace. So all this noise about their genuine concern about scaring men away with their psuedo-masculine traits does not make any sense because it simply isn’t true its just a cover up. The two primary reasons are: 1) fear of rejection and 2) fear of losing feminine prestige and ego that society has bestowed unto them which says that “you are the desirable one” therefore men should risk their face and swallow their pride to ask you go out.And if you are wondering why men would have given themselves this disadvantage in the first place, it was to protect their “property” from being stolen by other men. Women were property of men so by setting up these rules this prevented men from just taking whatever they want. Now since men have relinquished their power to control women it is only fair that women relinquish their power as well. But instead women continue to act aloof and set the proprietary ground rules which he must abide by in order to reach your highness. As my good friend Vino said we men are but mere serfs attending to feminine royalty and sorry women its just not going to happen like that. And if you think we are the ones losing out because we refuse to bow to your ego think again. Arrogance begets arrogance so what you will get is the arrogant males that only know how to act confident but have nothing to be confident about. Again arrogance is not evolved from winning it is merely an asset to survivalism. I have no problem asking out women but I only ask those out who dont seem to be playing the false traditionalist card while being immersed in modernism themselves.
Ms. Bee says
I initiated and suggested the first date with my fiancee, and almost five years later, we’re engaged to be married. I’ve asked men out before, and I’ve had no problem. (I also always go Dutch on dates, thereby violating another one of Evan’s rules.) I don’t know how to ask women out, though. They have always asked me out. I wish there were some better advice on this. The lesbian sites are too silly, and the men’s sites tend to treat women like they’re annoying harpies who must be tolerated in order to get sex. Just reading some comments on here, I realize a few men agree with this viewpoint, but that’s alright. They’re just not a good match for me.
My fiancee and I don’t observe gender roles. Though I look very feminine (people say I look like Portia DeRossi) — and he has that willowy rock-star look that’s in style these days (he used to model when he was younger, and looks like a very young Jon Bon Jovi, minus the silly 80s mullet) — in a poly relationship with a bisexual woman, gender roles serve us no purpose. In fact, gender roles have never suited me. Even when I’ve been in (or am in) “regular” relationships with men, I have never adhered to a strictly feminine role or used feminine charms. I don’t know how, I don’t care to learn, and it’s never hurt me any. I was raised by a single dad, and when my female classmates were talking about makeup and boys, I was hanging out with the guys, obsessing over Metallica and imitating Beavis and Butthead. (Yes, we sounded even stupider than you could imagine.)
I earn a high salary in a male-dominated field. (Most posters on here would call this a “male” role, but I don’t believe in these kinds of labels.) He is a FT student and working a PT student job. I pay for the majority of our expenses, and keep the finances straight. He cooks, because I’m so awful at it that I’m banned from the kitchen. We try to split cleaning where we can, but I’m fastidious about certain things (laundry) and he’s fastidious about others (kitchen/food prep area), so we often go our own way with chores.
Some guys might feel emasculated dating someone like me. That’s ok. I’m not right for them, and they’re not right for me. I am who I am, and I’m not going to change my personality just so I can be attractive to certain men who otherwise wouldn’t be interested. But I don’t believe it’s a hard-and-fast rule that women shouldn’t ask men out. They can — just not all of them. If I hadn’t made the first move, I wouldn’t have seen a great movie and had drinks with my future husband.
He’s an introvert, and I’m an extrovert. As an extrovert, I don’t let my lack of a Y chromosome stop me from asking guys out.
I also realize I’m not Evan’s target demographic for dating advice, but the conversations are interesting on here, so I would like to contribute. I think everyone could use an alternative perspective.
Ashley says
@Evan
I think that you are right, that women should let men do most of the pursuing. I am going to be honest…..it kind of sucks especially if you don’t get guys asking you out several times a month. Waiting around for guys to ask you out is absolutely fantastic if you have a huge line of them coming after you, but not so much if you do not. I do attract some guys, and i am very pretty (apparently, though i’m pretty sure if I were very pretty i’d get asked out more, i will believe that i am when more guys are asking me out). So being one of those girls who doesn’t have a myriad of guys knocking a door down to get a date with her, why can’t i approach a guy at a party? What if i were to approach him and just be flirty and friendly and not ask for his number? Why does it have to be when a girl approaches a guy it’s read as desperate, and when a guy approaches a girl it’s not. It’s not like i am going to ask the guy out i am just going to approach him because i want to get to know him. I do think you have really good advice like i said earlier, but I do think that maybe approaching a guy who doesn’t notice you right away, and having him realize that he’d like to give it a go, isn’t such a bad game plan. What do you think?
brian says
yes, yes, yes. you should deffinatly ask they guy out! most guys are at this point where they understand that women have 90% say in the mate selection process. and i am sure that most guys would love to know that you are intrested in them. These guys are so tired of trying to figure out which girl wants them to ask them out and they get tired of hearing no over and over again when they guess wrong. most men would find it a relief in this day and age. so if you are afraid of sounding too pushy then just say “would you like to have dinner some time” and bam loud and clear the guy gets the message. it is a win win for both him and you!
Mark says
If men would stop asking women out, we could actually reverse the power imbalance. There is no excuse for women to sit idly; what with all the gains they have made towards equality. It seems as if they want all the goodies, but none of the hardships. Social equality? Nah, leave that for the guys. 2011 at work; 1951 at home.
Telling men to ‘suck it up’ doesn’t fly with me. Why should men have to face rejection after rejection while women literally do nothing and the men flock to them in droves. It’s not fair, and we can do something to change the situation. If women had to go through 1/4 of the rejection that men experience, they would be a little gun-shy, too.
I am doing my part by not asking women out. If they want to be in my life, they must stop playing childish games and take the initiative. I am risking a lot by doing things this way, but I feel it is necessary to change things in the long run.
KJ says
I agree with you 2nd paragraph.
Who thinks men like to be rejected and always have to chase women? What about us shy guys?
Ron Diggity says
I tend to agree with Evan in the women should not ask men out. Now in full disclosure, I don’t agree with the premise that women are equal to men. I know it’s not politically correct to say that, but there is just much two much practical evidence to support my position to just summilarily dismiss it. That said, as a whole, I don’t think women should ask men out for a couple reasons:
1) short of a supermodel whispering in my ear “I’m a sure thing tonight” it’s kind of a turn-off. Men like the feeling of accomplishment that comes from successfully landing a woman. You sort of rob him of that. Simply giving a huge green light accomplishes the same result yet allows him this moral victory
2) quite frankly, committed realtionships (which is what most women REALLY want) are lop-sided against men. Now obviously a great and healthy relationship is the best, and is great for men, but as a whole, most realtionships are NOT that way and there is no denying there are greater costs and risk for men as opposed to women (stifling lifestyle, having your free time tied up with stuff you don’t won’t to do for her benefit, divorce hurts men more financially, etc etc)
KJ says
1) Thats a lie.
2) Thats your opinion, brah.
L says
Huh. I have mixed feelings on the issue. I have initiated things with a few guys (that I can remember… I think four in total…) but nothing ever went further than one date/one night of romance (not sex) from it. On the other hand, I might not have gotten together with these guys at all and might have always wondered “what if”. I guess the whole asking out thing has to do with that for me – I’ll do it (in the least aggressive form I can think off) in one of two possibilities:
1- It’s the only chance I got (someone I liked right away but might never see again if I don’t make some sort of move… depending on my mood I might act on it, approach him)
2 – I’ve tried flirting for a while, he hasn’t asked, he seems like he likes me fine and just won’t do it. This is tricky because if I feel like he’s otherwise a confident guy who will ask out a number of girls, but not me, than I guess not interested is pretty spot on. On the other hand, if he doesn’t seem quite sure of how interested you are and seem to be looking for more signs, than it’s probably safe. I say probably because you never know, that is why you ask.
Now the problem is, I’m not the most outgoing flirt (mostly friendly, too scared to make an ass of myself by being too friendly – can’t help it, been trying but not very successfully, so I’ve decided it’s better to be natural than to force something that feels quite strange to me) so only when I’m very interested and feel that I’m being reciprocated do my flirting skills really show up. Otherwise, they’re mostly too subtle for most guys to notice. So, I frequently run into the issue “I like this guy, but can’t tell if he doesn’t like me or just didn’t notice I’m sorta into him”. And then I’m stuck. Any advice?
It feels too soon to ask him out (as in, we’ve talked a few times, but not in a flirty kind of way, so I don’t think his mind went there). On the other hand, trying to activate my flirting power seems to not be working due to his not noticing/lack of interest. Or I might be beating a dead horse… life can be confusing. I do recall a couple of times guys asking me out out of the blue (with me knowing them but not actually thinking of them in that way) and being pleasantly surprised… but my experience with men tells me it might not work quite the same way when the roles are reversed (I mean, being flattered, but not taking the idea too seriously as seems to be the majority’s opinion of men being asked out by women)..
It’s funny in a way because I think it really depends on the guy. My older brother for instance, gets mostly an ego boost when a girl is interested in him, but only considers the ones he’d thought about that way even before they asked him out. I have a friend who gives all girls a chance (yes, he’s a bit of player… loves the chase, but doesn’t really get attached either way – asking or askee) and my ex who pursued me and we went out for 2 years had previously gone out with a girl for four years and she had been the one to ask him out. Also, if you are too aggressive that will come across even if you’re the one being asked out (or you might not get asked out at all… precisely for that reason) and if you’re not it really doesn’t matter because it won’t seem that way when you ask a guy out. I guess aggressive girls have to find guys who like that…
NonExist says
Actually a woman who asks me out pretty much gets an extra bonus in my book. It is an indication to me that she may be more apt to want to be a close to equal partner in dating and a relationship than just preferring me to pursue. And that is prime long term material.
Actually a lady who worked at the same company as I (different departments) was direct in her interest. And the only reason that are not together is that after spending time together and realizing how many general interests we did have in common, we also realized that our eventual relationship goals were different and there was no comfortable compromise.
However I did gain a new and wonderful friend out of the deal and we talk at least every other day. And that is rare for me even with family and the few friends that aren’t moved away or married. But she is into the same unique things I am so it just works.
NonExist says
This applies to the the discussion in general and is gender neutral but applies mainly to the ladies except for those few men who only prefer being asked out by women.
Just a rational suggestion.
If you are a person who prefers that people ask you out an never take the initiative. That is entirely your prerogative.
However, on forums and offline I have heard many women complain about either too many of the wrong type of men approaching them or certain individuals they were strongly interested in not responding to their signals.
In which case it may be prudent to at least consider making a more direct move to ask a guy you are interested in out.
Not saying you have to or you should, but maybe it might give you more possibilities.
Yes I do understand the myriad factors which support men pursuing women. But sometimes a one time change may be a great tool to achieve a goal.
Men in the third paragraph should be people.
Originally it was directed at ladies only but in reading more comments there might be men that feel like traditional ladies do.
NonExist says
Lastly, most of my dating life I’ve done the asking. And some ladies I met through friends. But the one who actually turned my soul inside out was one of the few that approached me first. And I remember all 6 of them but hardly any of the ones from other means.
She was friends with my brother and his friends.
And since she had mentioned in group conversation she had a guy already and she saw me with different women I figured we would just be friends in the group as usual.
About three or four months passed.
One night I hosted at my place. Everyone started leaving.and I noticed her just hanging around. I asked did she need a ride home.
She said she had driven tonight instead of coming with her friends because she wanted to get to know me better. I was pleasantly surprised.
And we talked all that night. Led to a two year awesome relationship.
She left town to pursue her education and I waited.
But when she came back she wanted to continue but she had decided she wanted children. And well that was the end of that. To this day when I think of her , it still hits me like a bomb.
And I felt so deeply that I could not really stay friends with her after that.
Not where we saw and spoke regularly. She has been happily married for several years and they have 5 children.
I will always remember and care for her because I do not believe in soulmates but I do feel like the chaos that is life for that brief moment brought me my supplementary angle.
M says
Well of course they should, but they don’t want to because it’s to their advantage not to. Why not just put all the responsibility on men’s shoulders? After all, we’re rejected time and again and it hurts like crazy and demolishes our self esteem but who really cares? Women’s feelings must be preserved at all costs.
Seriously, what, a gender that produces eons of high-ranking political officials, lawyers, doctors and so on can’t ask a guy for a date? Good grief gimme a break.
Rochelle says
@SS 226, that’s the same experience I’ve had. People my entire life haven given me dating advice centered around “we’re in the 20th/21st century and women should go after the men they want”, telling me to be “more aggressive” which never seemed as effective as doing things the so-called old fashioned way, which I follow more now. And their “modern advice” never matched how their relationships (present and history) formed and had no proof of being actually effective. It was all theory on how things should be since it’s the 21st century.
I never really asked men out but used to be “upfront” following their “modern advice” and I can see from my own experience how it isn’t effective. I was putting a lot of masculine, and desperate energy out there without realizing it, and rejecting the side of myself that makes me more alluring. We still have plenty of power, it’s just almost completely opposite of how many of us were raised…So many of us were somehow led to believe it was wrong to flirt to grab a man’s attention or allow him to do things for us.
And now, I still don’t ask men out unless it’s like I canceled and then told him I’d reschedule at some other point, or one of those situations where the guy was a friend liked me for awhile but I wasn’t willing to give him the time of day and changed my mind..that happened once. And even in that situation, after the asking was done, he took the pursuing role instantly. And technically the man still made the first move there. Other than that I believe in the man asking me out or me flirting to inspire him to ask. I heard that some American women like to even propose nowadays, but those are not the type of men most women want. Sure we’re the 21st century but biologically men and women, and what tends to attract us to one another, hasn’t really changed. Chivalrous men, the type of men most women want, typically enjoy taking the initiative, giving to us, pleasing us and choosing us. A woman asking them out takes away from that. It is really rare to hear a story where a relationship *lasted* and went into marriage with a woman doing more of the initiating.
john says
To SarahG #21
“Also, he was all complimentary in a sexy way about my cute pics – not sure I like that approach. Maybe he’s a player?”
Oh geez….
franko says
i would love to have a woman ask me out for a change, that would be nice. and with so many women playing so very hard to get these days, and being so very difficult to talk too, it is very hard as it is for me to meet a real decent woman today. it seems to me that women are not looking to go out with men anymore, like they once did.
dave says
Let the women approach and they will learn about rejection and the great character it builds. It will do them, and men, a world of good!
Grant says
I feel this is spot on. Often I notice women acting in two extremes. Either they approach the man and come off dominant and needy or they become ice cold and seem unapproachable. If more women just “fluffed their feathers”, I am sure they would have no problem getting a man’s attention. After all, would you really want a man that can’t go after what he wants?
For those inquiring about the who pays scenario, I have come up with an easy way of handling this. When I am getting to know a woman, I bring her into my life. That mean’s we go for a hike, a picnic, archery/shooting, or perhaps a horse ride on the beach. These are things that are apart of my life and are not costly to me. After I decide that we have chemistry and that there may possibly be a future, I then ask the girl out on an actual date. If a women doesn’t like how I go about getting to know her, thats fine. I move on.
Alpha Girl says
Just read through this entire post. Thanks Evan for your advice, but alas I’m sick of men asking me out who I’m not attracted to, this drives me bananas. ( Just like the guy who mentioned the dance scenario) I’ve asked guys out before and have bad and good experiences. What I really think is BS is Evan’s comment about how men perceive woman who ask them out as aggressive, desperate…etc. Shouldn’t that be the case on the flip side as well. I am starting to believe now that men who ask out women are desperate too. All these dating gurus are putting ideas into people’s heads who can’t think for themselves. At one time for another we look up this information because we want to have someone in our lives.
As for Evan and your thought that its ok for a woman to send a message or wink to a man online, that’s just silly to not let the same happen when asking someone out on the phone or in person. What I think is more funny my male friend I got into online dating says it weirds him out when a lady messages him. When I inquired why, his response was he read it on a dating website, that those women had baggage and problems and to stay away from them, so another guru is giving out idiotic advice.
Relationship roles are really being redefined these days, and what has worked in the past may or may not work in the future. If I had any advice to give my daughter if I had one 25 years in the future, I’d advise her that if she likes someone she should ask them out, why wait life it too short. Plus getting to know someone as friends first may be the key.
i think heterosexual couples can learn a thing or two from gay couples, those relationships seem to be more egalitarian. Meaning they are more than likely to become friends first who show common interests.
I also like how my friend dating guru James Allen Hanrahan has told me. For every yin there is a yang. Female is yin energy and yang is male. He told me a female yang needs to find a male yin. Or you have to fake being a yin and your more than likely not going to like it. So if I am a yang what’s wrong with me asking a yin out! He should be happy I’m interested, cause I want to be the dominant one. Lol that’s not always the case, but I know my real personality (being the leader) always comes out at some point in time.
Karl R says
Alpha Girl said: (#275)
“He told me a female yang needs to find a male yin.”
That’s rather good advice, and Evan has stated the same thing in previous threads (using different terminology).
The problem, however, is that most yang females are attracted to males who are even more yang than they are.
I have previously stated (in other threads) that women who are interested in shy men should ask them out, because that allows the women to kick-start a relationship that might not happen otherwise. And Evan has agreed (in those threads) that the advice applies to women who approach shy men. However, he doesn’t give that advice, since his clients are not attracted to shy men.
You’re in a minority. You’re a female yang who is looking for her male yin. You will need to modify the advice you read (and your prior experience) to adjust to your less common situation.
For example:
Alpha Girl said: (#275)
“I’m sick of men asking me out who I’m not attracted to,”
As a yin who is being asked, someone can expect that about 90% to 95% of the yangs who ask will be be people they find unattractive.
Turning that around for you (Alpha Girl):
When you start asking yins out, you can expect that 90% to 95% will not be attracted to you and decline.
If you come back here complaining that the first three men turned you down, I’m going to tell you to grow a pair and get back out there. If you’re serious about getting somewhere as a yang, you should be getting rejected at least once per week (initially).
As you become more experienced, you will become better at determining which yins aren’t attracted before you ask them. If you can get to the point where 50% of the yins you ask out are interested, you’ve probably gotten about as good about identifying which yins are/aren’t interested as any other experienced yang.
Being the pursuer requires a very resilient ego.
Alpha Girl said: (#275)
“if I am a yang what’s wrong with me asking a yin out! He should be happy I’m interested,”
If you approach it with that attitude, you’re going to be very frustrated. Some yins will be happy that you’re interested. More of them will wish a different yang was interested in them.
Don’t take it personally. The same thing happens to the male yangs.
Alpha Girl says
Lol Karl. Tenacious and resilant are my middle names!
Alpha Girl says
Also Karl on the last quote you copied from me, you also took that out of context. Notice the comma in your copy where I say “he should be happy I’m interested,” that’s not an attitude at all If you finish the sentence. Just talked to some more people about this. We came to the conclusion that the ideas (of gurus and parents) are being put into people’s heads similar to the movie “Inception” diving deeper into the realm of suggested thoughts and ideas that can become reality. Purely by believing it through suggestion.
Karl R says
Alpha Girl said: (#278)
“you also took that out of context.”
The part I didn’t bother to quote was irrelevant to your odds having the man respond favorably to you asking him out.
Either he’s interested in you, or he’s not. Until he’s been on the first date with you, he probably won’t even know that you want to be the dominant one. How is a trait that he’s ignorant about going to make him happy that you’re interested?
Alpha Girl said: (#278)
“We came to the conclusion that the ideas (of gurus and parents) are being put into people’s heads”
This is nothing new. People have been absorbing ideas (whether correct or incorrect) from other people for all of recorded history (and possibly before).
But my comments assumed that people are people. Regardless of how many times I thought someone should be interested in me, it never changed whether or not they were interested in me. That doesn’t change just because you’re a female asking males out.
Don’t take my word for it. Test it out. If you’re the one initiating relationships, you’re going to have to do a lot of your learning through experimentation in any case.
Amelia says
I think this advice makes complete sense if you look at it from just a consistency angle. If you go on the offensive and ask a guy out, you are essentially committing yourself to maintaining that type of masculine energy throughout the dating relationship, even if you are the female. Meaning that you can ask the guy out, but I think for that to work you also have to be willing to plan the dates, do the driving, pick up the bill, etc.
Sounds unfair, sure, but flip it around and imagine if a guy asked you out, but then he still expected you to plan the dates, do the driving, pay the bill, etc. You’d think he was just out to waste time.
There again, if you are the type of chick who prefers to wear the pants, so to speak, THEN power to you. Proceed to ask men out until blue in the face (though hopefully one would say yes before that point). But if you naturally prefer the man to take the reins, as I certainly do, then it makes more sense to just sit back and unleash the gravity well of feminine seduction.
Lucy says
@Alpha Girl – You say that when men ask women out it comes across as aggressive or desperate but I don’t think that’s the case. I think it becomes desperate if you make your lack of interest clear but they continue you on as if they are trying to change your mind. This is what really offends me because it shows that the person has no regard for your feelings and doesn’t seem to believe your opinions are important. Recently I was propositioned by this guy and I said “Absolutely not” to which he responded with “Are you sure?” which made me really quite peeved.
I don’t think Evan is wrong about it coming across as desperate if a woman asks a man out. But please hear me out.I think that, like it or not, this is how most men think (at least judging by comments from male friends). I don’t like that they think this but it is how it is. Personally I think I lose a lot of power if I ask a man out. I get in a mode where I’m trying to impress them instead of them trying to impress me. From a personal point of view I don’t like this. I’ve found that when I’ve asked men out in the past I’ve felt really insecure about whether they are really interested in me and that sense of insecurity never really lessons. I fall in love a lot harder and deeper when the man has been the one who’s initiated things with me. I feel truly wanted then. I don’t feel like I’ve “become an option” as I’ve heard some guys say about other women who have asked them out. I tried out Evan’s advice and it has worked out so much better for me. It means that I have less interest but probably more genuine interest. But I’m not a princess type. I believe in to-and-fro once things have got started.
And I totally agree with what you said about dating gurus and how they make people not think for themselves about whether they feel attraction for someone! It’s simply a minefield. Despite what I said above, I feel that it’s pure projection to look at someone asking you out for a drink and assuming that they’re “desperate”. I mean that comes from your own issues and not the person who has asked you out. A few months ago I dismissed this guy as clingy because he was asking me out on dates (that was actually all he was doing). Then I realised that he was a lovely guy who I unfortunately felt no attraction for and that I needed to get over myself and cut him some slack.
I think if a woman doesn’t ask a man out, she can still initiate with him in a more subtle way. That way no one can accuse me of making no effort and waiting for the opposite sex to come to me. I’m not like that at all. I just make my interest in them very obvious (but not creepy) and then it’s up to them whether they ask me out or not. I don’t care if people tell me I’m old-fashioned. I personally think that’s them projecting idealistic standards onto dating. And dating is not about political correctness. It works because men will generally see you as more discerning if you’re not in the habit of asking people out which then leads you to being seen as a woman with value.
KJ says
How do you think it is for guys to be trying to impress girls all the time? And what if a dude is shy or really awkward? Should he just be alone?
People and their traditionalist lifestyle promotion worry me.
Lucy says
@Alpha Girl – You said: “We came to the conclusion that the ideas (of gurus and parents) are being put into people’s heads similar to the movie “Inception” diving deeper into the realm of suggested thoughts and ideas that can become reality. Purely by believing it through suggestion.”
Sounds fascinating! I wonder if anyone has written something on dating and confirmation bias. It explains how people with a good chunk of brain make poor dating decisions anyway. I guess all of us have some level of self-delusion.
marymary says
I asked my boyfriend out, or rather I suggested he take me somewhere.
It’s not true that from then on I’ve had to pay for all our dates and lead the relationship.
Neither is he some kind of pathetic female version of a man. He’s a very good public speaker, men twice his age tell me he is “gifted”. He tears up the soccer pitch. He’s very competitive. If he had to he could fight his way out of trouble but maturity and experience tels him it’s better to avoid it. He never bows to peer pressure. When something is out of line with his values he is immovable.
I don’t think that you can extrapolate a man’s personality, character, or the next x years of your relationship from who asks who out. Hanging onto that is no more than superstition to me.
of course, if you want to wait to be asked that;s your perogative. There’s nothing wrong with it. it’s tradtional and kinda normal. But I don’t think it ‘s as significant as some are suggesting.
Amelia says
marymary–
I guess what I’m imagining is the reverse of the standard situation, i.e. where boy meets girl, boy asks girl out, but while girl accepts she is still reservedly evaluating him and expects boy to make an effort to court a good impression from her. If you switch it up so that girl meets boy, girl asks boy out, and the boy is the one reservedly evaluating the match, yet the girl doesn’t follow through because she doesn’t naturally enjoy taking the lead, then I see where you’ve got a recipe for failure. It would be the same if the boy in the standard scenario all of a sudden stops trying– which as it turns out is seems to be the more common, painful experience for women (been there). If the boy knows he’s into the match, though, then I grant you there’s a far greater chance of success.
Again, if a woman naturally enjoys taking the lead, that’s great and I admire that tremendously. For sure, there are good men out there who are receptive to that. For me personally, things became much smoother when I let my boyfriend be just awfully traditional, and frankly the opposite of what I was accustomed to. He bought me the drink I didn’t ask for, then asked me out with the insistence that he pay, drive, etc, as much as I protested on several occasions for what I felt were principled, egalitarian reasons. I could sense, though, that my protesting was actually borderline insulting to him, and as soon as I relaxed about it everything took off brilliantly.
Heck if I know why all the traditional crap worked like magic where non-traditional didn’t in the past, but I’ll gladly eat my crow. The almost-insulted feeling was interesting, and a little amusing to me– here I thought I was being reasonable and fair by offering to do the traditionally masculine things yet he was annoyed by it. He’s not an older guy, either. I wish I could explain it, given that today’s dating paradigm is no longer strictly defined.
Miller says
Sorry, but SCREW THAT.
I respect women who ask men out, beleive it or not, if that cute girl a guy’s been interested goes up to him and asks HIM out, he’d be frikken psyched. Because he knows that she’s interested in him and it lifts the burdon of having to plan the date and work up the courage to ask her off of him.
Asking people out is a major pain in the ass, I hate hate hate doing it. (and yes I have done it quite a few times, still don’t like doing it.) the fact that its a task relegated to one gender specifically is a crime against humanity, and sets the rights for gender equality skyrocketing backwards.
Oh by the way, ” I don’t want to start an association with a man trying to convince him that I’m worth his time if he doesn’t feel that way already. ”
Have some perspective, that’s how men feel when THEY are obligated to do it every time. Check your privilege, yo.
Peter says
1) It’s ok for women to be cowards
2) No need for equality in gender roles. Women claiming they want equality, what hypocrites.
3) Shy guys should die
Peter says
Yeah right, Evan you said that she could ask only a shy guy out.
And how could she tell if that guy is a shy guy or he is not interested in her or perhaps he is already in a relationship?
So much for equality in gender roles
1) It’s ok for women to be cowards
2) No need for equality in gender roles. Women claiming they want equality, what hypocrites.
dave says
Ms. MaryMary – Great post! I wish that more people could understand your point of view. Maybe the fact of having women doing the approaching REALLY angers women.
yoyo says
Marymary – i also asked out my boyfriend of 4 years on a date. I am so glad I did, because maybe we wouldn’t have had the wonderful relationship we have been lucky enough to experience.
No one should let society dictate what they should do in relationships. Act the way you feel. Its the 21st century. How would change ever come about in the world, in all aspects of life, if we all just acted what we thought was ‘typical’, ‘expected’ or ‘traditional’?
bob says
Yes they should…
if women want equal rights they should be willing to risk being burnt like men do, any other excuse is a cop out.
Daniel says
I strongly disagree that women should not ask men out. This is almost 2014 now, and time for complete equality.
Seriously says
That would certainly be very nice for a Change. Wouldn’t It?
Blake says
Best advice that I’ve seen so far online. Thank you. It was straight to the point and obviously going to save a lot of heart breaks for those women that think it’s the modern way of dating and decide to put themselves out there by asking first. I have a secret crush and there is no way I will ever ever ask this guy out. I’m in the process of using those womanly ” wiles ” you speak of with the hopes that he will catch on. Trying is better than not trying, right? If he doesn’t respond, then I can at least know I stayed on my side of the fence and did my best, he just didn’t want to hop over…LOL
lola says
I agree always cast your net in the sea and see what kind fish you caught.
If the first throw does not work. Through it again. That how it works in the world i live in.
pepper says
I completely disagree with women not asking men out. I’m a college girl studying engineering and there’s no reason why I shouldn’t be myself around someone I like! That said, no i haven’t asked anyone out, but I think most boys are intimidated by me and also i’m kind of awkward at picking up social cues. Still, why shouldn’t a girl who knows what she wants go after the guy she wants?
alread says
this is terrible advice, dont listen to it. guys can be just as nervous to ask out a girl, the same way girls can be nervous to ask out a guy.
John says
I disagree with the idea that if a woman asks a man out, she is an “aggressor.”
Asking a person out on a date is not an aggressive act. It is an assertive one. Women are not being “aggressive” when they ask a man out on a date. They are being assertive.
Does a woman asking a man out imply a loss of power or control? No.
The idea that men suffer from a loss of power as a result of someone taking the initiative over what course their life will take assumes that men need or want to be in control of everything. This is simply not true. Men do not desire or want to be in control of everything in their lives and nor do they want that. There are plenty of pleasurable activities for men in the world, like playing golf, watching football and other sports, playing chess, playing video games, engaging in intellectual debates and putting the maximum effort into one’s career. Many of these activities are rewarding because they require skill or test a man’s intuition or intellectual capability. Men at their best are competitive and push themselves to the limit.
Men at their best are reaching and sustaining their peak, not trying to find a balance. Peak performances are for men. Balance is for women. Women are good at multi-tasking. That’s why they often like “doing it all” or “having it all.”
A man could care less about winning a woman’s heart if he can beat people at chess, become a professional video gamer or if he has a successful career, gets promoted to higher offices and/or ascends the ranks of the corporate world. Men do not absolutely need to be in control of everything in their lives. They go after what’s exciting to them. A man isn’t a “failure” for not having the initiative to ask a woman out on a date if he is “successful” and experiences a sense of “power” in some other aspect of his life. That is where a man’s pride is. A man’s pride is in what he does best.
Dating is not about power. Dating is a prelude to a relationship and relationships are about intimacy and about exposing your most vulnerable side to another person. People pursue relationships due to a need to be “loved.”
To me, the most attractive members of the opposite sex are those who are nice. When a women is nice to me, shows hospitality and courtesy, praises me for my work and tells me I am smart, and I experience that as “love,” I become attracted to her. Being asked out is no less of an act of love. I would have no problem with a woman with a six-figure salary asking me out if she showed “love” to me first. The feeling of being “loved” is often powerful enough for me to ignore their looks.
The funny thing is, if I was to now speak of the opposite sex, despite having a society influenced by feminism and the notion of equality, women still like being “served” and “pampered” by men. A survey reveals that only a minority of women are put off by men opening doors for them, which is weird because I thought it was the other way round!
This leads me to the conclusion: it isn’t a question of whether men or women should do the asking because it isn’t a matter of exerting power over someone. It’s a matter of “showing love” to a member of the opposite sex. Love breaks down barriers. It softens them inside.
The Real John says
Im little disappointed by this article.
I dont understand why does Evan want to give women power and control over men ? Why cant women or men ask each other out and stop playing games ?
This is just silly. The best relationships I ever had was with women who asked me out.
dave says
Real John – The situation you described happens EVERY DAY . The women insist that it is THEIR guarantee that the man is interested enough that he does the approaching ( because she is worth it, and he is not worth it). Maybe this was the gallantry (?) tha our dads taught us once, but men are sick of the double standard. Maybe it is changing.
Dan says
Reading this column I sort of felt that I was in a time warp back to the 1950’s. We live in a time when women run major corporations, universities, government agencies, lead troops in combat and excel in all the professions. In the next couple of years we might have our first woman President*. So, if you truly believe in gender equality, why shouldn’t women ask men out?
All the reasons you give are related to social attitudes which need to be abandoned because they diminish the humanity of both men and women. It also supports the “women-as-gatekeepers” attitude which sees relationships, sex, even love, as something that women have and men have to win from them, which is extremely unhealthy for relationships.
You say, “But there are some men who don’t embrace these traditional roles — not because they’re iconoclasts or neo-feminists, but simply because they’re shy or insecure.” Actually, some men don’t embrace the traditional role because they ARE feminists and believe in gender equality. I know I could never be attracted to a woman who was so tradition bound or lacking in her own sense of humanity that she was afraid to invite me out for drinks, a movie or whatever.
*just for the record, Hillary met Bill when they were students at Yale Law and she DID make the first move.
Evan Marc Katz says
It’s not a time warp, Dan. Go on a dating website. Women receive hundreds of emails from men because men know it’s their role to ask women out. It’s not that women “can’t” ask men out. It’s that they don’t really have to because men are doing just fine by themselves. When I was single, I didn’t need a woman to ask me out. If I found her attractive, I’d have done so independently.
Dan says
I recognize that there are there are still people out there who think that way, but it doesn’t change my point. Why is it the man’s role to ask women out, other than traditionalism? This seems a part of the same view that says the man always should pay, provide transport, be the head of the house, make more money, and generally take the lead. And these types of gender bound rules are bad for men and women.
Relationships are about love, respect and mutuality. This is most likely to happen between equals who aren’t concerned about societal role-playing.
I don’t “need” a woman to ask me out, but I sure do love it when she does. She goes up in my estimation and its far more likely that her values and attitudes line up with mine.
Evan Marc Katz says
You’re acting like a theorist rather than a pragmatist. Which is fine. I would submit to you that if you see a woman and find her compelling, you’re going to ask her out. And if you do, she doesn’t NEED to ask you out. Does it matter whether it’s biology (men as hunters) or society (men playing the traditionally masculine role)? Not to me. Maybe it does to you. But instead of waiting for women to get the memo and start approaching you so you don’t have to approach her, why don’t you continue to play by society’s rules by asking out women, planning the dates, and picking up the check? On behalf of most women, that’s what they want you to do. And if, by chance, a woman also feels she can buck societal convention – good for both of you. Sincerely. Just let me know when she gets down on one knee and buys you a ring. Why should men have to do that stuff?
Jason Cole says
I thought women did all the planning. I’m confused.
Karmic Equation says
Part of the reason men want women to approach is because men are tired of being rejected. I get that. It stings.
But as I wrote in another post, that is where most men face rejection. Up front: Girl says no thanks (hopefully nicely 🙂 ) — The 10,000 foot view of this situation helps a man get “closure” quickly and while the ego may be bruised, the self-esteem doesn’t take any hits. This is a blessing.
What men FAIL to understand is that once a girl ACCEPTS a date, then SHE opens HERSELF up for rejection. The guy doesn’t call for a second date. He has sex with her then disappears. He doesn’t want a relationship with her. He doesn’t want to marry her. This type of rejection promotes insecurity and heartbreak. “Wasn’t she good enough?” “What did she do wrong?” There’s no win and all downhill unless she toughens up emotionally. This is not a blessing and it enculturates women’s insecurities.
So, when men keep harping on the double-standard “Why should men approach? Why can’t women approach?” — What men are asking for is women to be open to getting rejected both coming and going. Certainly, MOST men are much more chivalrous at turning down dates than some women, but I would ask WHY do you think a woman should risk rejection both at the beginning AND in the middle and possibly even in the end?
Just take the lumps up front, guys. The world does NOT need to make it THAT much easier for you to avoid rejection. In the whole scheme of things, rejection up front is small potatoes compared to what women risk once they say yes to a date.
GL says
TOTALLY agree. I really encourage men online to converse, because I go on the possibility they might be shy/not into electronic communication. Sometimes I straight up give them my number, and if they don’t call…well, ok they aren’t into it. I have also asked out guys and usually get rejected, LOL, but it’s worth a shot. My first love, well I asked him out. We had the best relationship I’ve ever had.
jason cole says
I disagree, but who am I. What does it matter who ask who out? Male or female. Women are going to have to let the ammale know they are interested. Giving signs so forth. What’s the difference in asking someone to go for a walk or expressing your feelings, that means speaking, body language and signs can be hard to read sometimes. I see nothing wrong with a female asking a male out. Or at least verbal saying she is interested in him.
Jason Cole says
I’ve gotten to the point where I don’t even bother asking women out. To much trouble. Lets say I’m at work. I have to worry about a harassment complaint being filed, possibly resulting in job loss. The hand book is clearly discriminating against men, saying sexual harassment can be in the form of leering at a person. What? If I see something I think is beautiful. I can harass it by looking at it. Okay so I don’t look at women period while I’m at work. I walk around all day with my head down. Especially when a pretty women comes in I go the opposite direction. ;)…..I’ve tried dating sites. They are horrible for me, I’m not sure about others. Never can tell who I was talking to. One time my mom tricked me, made a fake profile. Needless to say that didn’t go so well. Church isn’t a good place either. I’ve talked with a few women there they seem to think its not a good place. I don’t go to bars often but have heard that’s the worst place to find a good women. Back to the point. Id rather a women verbally say she is interested in me before I ask her out.
Karmic Equation says
Jason,
Then you are going to die a lonely bachelor.
The reality is that men get rejected up front (e.g., girl says no to a date) whereas women get rejected after dates (guy disappears). As much as it may sting for you to get rejected up front, at least you have closure. Most women yearn for that, but few get it. So men are lucky in this sense.
Just as men need to be attracted to a woman to ask her out, women need to be attracted to a man before she accepts a date. You don’t mention your looks, so I’m going to assume you’re average looking. My suggestion is that if you’re thin, buff up; if you’re overweight, lose it. Head for the gym and put on some muscle and develop a six-pack ab and those lovely hip flexors that only men can develop. lol.
If your face is plain, you can get plastic surgery, too, you know. Men can have PS just like women. This might be better than a six-pack ab, because, for most women, we need a face we can envision kissing.
And then you’ll face rejection less, both online and IRL. Women don’t tend to reject lunch dates with cute guys from work. And online, good looking guys get approached by women (e.g., written to) whereas the average looking guy, not so much. And in the meantime, while you’re working out to get in shape, write a better profile. You should use Evan’s e-Cyrano service. I highly recommend it. Most men’s profiles are poor. And the ones who like to write tend to write wayyyyyy tooooo much!
And lastly, if you DON’T want to go to the gym or get P.S., then you need to evaluate your own league and approach women within it. If you’re really a 5 but knocking yourself out trying to date 8’s you’re not going to be successful. Start writing to 5’s and keep dropping the number until someone responds. If 5’s respond quickly, you can try for 6’s. Works in both directions. You just need to find out which women find you attractive and then go date those women. There is a lid for every pot 🙂
Jason Cole says
Karmic I squat 450 and bench press 300. I have a 6 pack of a Greek God. So really don’t think the GYM is going to save from my loney exile.
Evan Marc Katz says
It must be your personality then.
Jason Cole says
Plastic surgery please. You shouldn’t even say something like that to someone. God made my face my body. If a women can’t love it done it. No one should have plastic surgery. Shame on you for pushing it!!!
Karmic Equation says
Jason,
Women very rarely accuse good looking men of sexual harassment — even if he were oftentimes, unless he’s a douche. So if you’re afraid of being charged with sexual harassment, then you need to connect the dots.
It’s not shameful for women to have P.S. if she wants to. Most celebrities do, male and female. So it’s ok for guys too.
So let me clarify further, IF you have a great body BUT your face is less than optimal then EVEN great body may not get you the chicks you want. You need to have a kissable face OR you need to date within your league. It’s all within your control.
Love your one liner, Evan. Made me laugh and spit out my tea.
Tom10 says
Me too Karmic 🙂
Karmic Equation says
Great minds think alike, eh, Tom?
jason cole says
We are total off subject. The subject was should women ask men out. Not can Jason get a date. Excuse me for explaining why I don’t ask women out and feel it wouldnt be awkward for a women to ask a man out.
jason cole says
Excuse me I didn’t read the hole article Evan wrote. This site is not good for a not so smart phone.
Jason Cole says
Karmic all I can think about is Ric Flair chopping you in the chest and yelling wow. If you are a male? So I must go blog elsewhere.
Karmic Equation says
I’m all woman, hon.
Ric Flair is no match for me! hahaha
I just have this uncanny ability to think like a guy. And I have full access to all my emotions, like most women. So not only can I feel all my emotions, I can also analyze them. And I’m hot (or so I’ve been told, IRL, not just online) So I’m quite lethal. Beware! 😉
Ric Flair says
Nothing funny at all about what Evan said.
Karmic Equation says
Welcome back from the dead!
Ric Flair says
Well thank you for clarifying that. I appreciate your help with my relsationship status. You should be more confident with those I’m hot remarks though. Have a good day
Karmic Equation says
Well, “hotness” needs 3rd party corroboration. If I think I’m hot and no one else does, am I really hot? The answer would be no. I would be delusional.
And we all know that men online will tell a woman she’s hot to try to get dates 🙂
And we know that both men and women often photoshop their profile pics, sometimes so much so, they don’t even resemble them IRL upon meeting. — Men I’ve had dates with have disclosed this…and I myself have experienced it with men, although, most men don’t shop their photos, per se. The most deceived I’ve felt was when a man used pics of himself 50# ago or have pics with dark hair and when I met him he was all gray. NONE of their photos were recent, but since they both had MULTIPLE photos, I thought they were legit. Not cool.
Hence, I qualified my hot statement to show that I’m not being delusional 🙂
Ric flair says
Well my mirror qualified me so. :p
Karmic Equation says
But you could be delusional. Remember, women like ABOVE the neck looks more than BELOW the neck bods. I can’t tell you how many not-hot men post close ups of their hot bods and then when I see their face go, not good. Jowly, craggy faces. Even Led Zeppelin like beards. Not for me. Might be for other women, but doubt it. Bods were rocking though. But the face couldn’t save it. There is NO equivalent in women-speak for “But-her face…” Great bods help an above average face. But won’t help a below-average face. In this sense women are lucky. But that woman needs have really good guy-dar, or she faces being used and becoming embittered or end up in the wrong kinds of relationships.
RFC says
Evan and to everyone else-Why does it seem like so many men online are complaining about women NOT making the first move? For every article that says that men should ask women out (which I agree), there’s someone else saying that women should ask men out. I came across an article saying that men are lazy, why should men do all of the work, and that a woman asking a man out shows confidence. But, I’ve seen so many examples of women chasing men that don’t work. When men say that they like it when a woman asks them out, they don’t tell you that they will actually commit or fall in love with that woman. If you’re getting hit on a woman that you don’t like, you’re just going to feel awkward. At least a man asking the woman out shows that he genuinely likes her, and put enough energy into it.
Geoff says
Speaking as a man, I am not emasculated in the slightest when a woman demonstrates enough interest in me to ask me out. Quite the opposite, in fact; it is a major turn-on for me because I know for certain that she is into me, she’s likelier to be compatible, and I will be bolder as a result. I like decisive, assertive (not domineering) women.
To be frank, I think encouraging women to “lead” men into asking them out reinforces social roles based on deception that are quite poisonous, and stereotypes that we should be trying to dump. In my view, a society that is truly based on equality is one where either gender is free to initiate a relationship.
Men who have a problem with being asked out have insecurities (such as issues of control) to work out, in my view. And for the record, I have asked women out who have interested me, as well. I think it’s only fair that women take the initiative and ask men out. too.
Evan Marc Katz says
It’s not about being emasculated, Geoff. It’s about the simple fact that most men got the memo that if they are attracted to a woman, they should ask her out. If he doesn’t ask her out, that would usually be an indicator of his lack of interest. Thus, it’s not that women can’t ask out men; it’s that, for the most part, they shouldn’t HAVE to.
jeremy says
This is a bit of a re-hash of a disagreement I had with Evan on a related topic of women offering the first kiss.
Evan, I have a ton of respect for you and the advice you offer, and I agree with much of what you write. But I think you are off-base here. You are committing what is known as “apex fallacy,” wherein you assume that the behavior of the top 10-20% of men is indicative of the behavior of 80-90% of men.
The top 10-20% of men, the “alpha” men, the men who have effortless success with women (as you seem to have had in your younger days) are the ones that “got the memo” that THEY should be the ones to initiate. The remaining majority of men are more self-conscious, and would LOVE it if women would occasionally initiate or show overt interest.
Let’s temporarily flip the script. Rather than asking whether women should ask men out on dates, let’s ask whether women should ask for raises at work. “Men” seem to have gotten the memo that if they want something (like a raise at work), they need to ask for it. However, many women have not gotten that memo. Instead, they adopt a passive attitude and often get passed over. Lesson learned – if you want something, ask for it.
I believe the same applies in the world of dating. If a woman is interested in a man, she need not adopt a passive attitude. She can take risks and act overtly. And 80-90% of men will not see her as too masculine (though I admit, the 10-20% that might see her so are the ones SHE is most likely to be interested in…)
Evan Marc Katz says
Blind spots are funny. You’re going to this length to defend the beta worldview – and you use the example that if women want raises (or men), they should ask. The onus is on them. You’re right.
And the onus is on your 80% of men to ask as well, instead of saying that feminine women who get asked out all the time by men “should” ask them out instead. Doctor, heal thyself.
jeremy says
I don’t understand your argument here, Evan. The onus to ask is on the one who “wants”. In the example of work, the woman who wants a raise asks for it.
In the example of a man who wants to ask a woman out, he should ask (I agree with you).
In the example of a woman who wants to ask a man out, she should ask. I agree with what you wrote in your article that she might first try to position herself such that he might do the asking, but in the absence of success in that regard, she should ask, rather than feel rejected because he did not pick up on her covert messaging.
Evan Marc Katz says
And yet, the easiest thing you can do as a man is to start asking women out, instead of complaining that they’re not asking you out. You keep coming back to me with what women are doing wrong; doesn’t that sound a bit like women complaining that men have sex without commitment but that they “shouldn’t”? This really isn’t that hard.
Women WANT you to ask them out. They don’t like having to be the aggressor, put themselves on the line, all the uncomfortable stuff that guys have to do. You’re telling them that they “should”. I’m telling them that there are enough guys who will ask them out that they don’t need to start approaching men. I stick with my assertion. A woman can go her whole life without asking out a man and be perfectly happy. You’re pretty much saying that you want women to act like men, instead of accepting the idea that they WANT to be courted.
My message remains the same to men and women: try changing to more effective behaviors instead of complaining that the other gender should change to accommodate your insecurities.
Tom10 says
@ Geoff #312
“Speaking as a man, I am not emasculated in the slightest when a woman demonstrates enough interest in me to ask me out. Quite the opposite, in fact; it is a major turn-on for me because I know for certain that she is into me…”
Yes, but does she know for certain that you are into her?
“To be frank, I think encouraging women to “lead” men into asking them out reinforces social roles based on deception that are quite poisonous, and stereotypes that we should be trying to dump”.
I don’t think Evan has any interest in reinforcing deceptive social roles or stereotypes; rather what are effective dating techniques for women.
“In my view, a society that is truly based on equality is one where either gender is free to initiate a relationship.”
But in our society either gender is free to initiate a relationship — who is stopping women initiating relationships? What concerns this blog, however, is not social equality; rather what are effective dating techniques for women.
“I think it’s only fair that women take the initiative and ask men out. too.”
It might be only fair, but unfortunately fairness has no place in dating. Effectiveness, however, does.
@ Jeremy #312.1.1
I normally agree with your comments Jeremy but I have to agree with Evan on this issue.
Here’s the problem: let’s say that women get your memo and start asking men out en-masse. Take a guess at which guys they’ll ask out? Well, most likely they won’t go for the self-conscious “beta” guys; they’ll go for the hot 20% of course. And what will these guys do when faced with all these women asking them out? Rather than perceiving them as masculine or feeling emasculated, most likely they’ll simply sleep with her for a while, whilst still looking for the woman he really wants; the woman he wants so much that he’ll ask her out himself.
The reason men and women should take different approaches to dating is because men and women behave differently. Women, usually, don’t string men along for sex the way that men often do to women. Therefore when a guy asks out a women and she responds positively she most likely considers him as relationship potential. When a woman asks a guy out she has no such assurances.
As Evan said, instead of hoping for women to change and start asking guys out; the 80% of guys would be better served forcing themselves to come out of their shells and ask women out (or, “up the alpha” as I think you put it before).
Nathan says
Overall, I believe it’s healthy to offer people the opportunity to experiment with all this stuff. Frankly, I don’t care if the majority of men do the asking, and the majority of women do the accepting. If some strategy isn’t working, then break the damned script and see what happens. If a woman is really into a guy, and the positioning herself to get asked out hasn’t worked, then flip the script. This happens more than some of you think it does anyway, it just doesn’t get much attention. The same goes for men who are shy or not outgoing. If all your efforts to get asked out are failing, then start asking women out. Again, the arguments that a given approach works for the majority, and therefore everyone should do what works for the majority, doesn’t fly for me. I’d encourage experimenting for those who aren’t having success, not conformity. If the experimenting happens to go along with the majority, that’s totally fine. But the experimenting framing, in my view, is very different from telling people to just act like other women or men do.
“Therefore when a guy asks out a women and she responds positively she most likely considers him as relationship potential. When a woman asks a guy out she has no such assurances.” Tom, in my experience, this isn’t true. I had literally dozens of 2nd and 3rd dates over the years, and there were plenty of times when the woman I was out with either wanted nothing more than a causal relationship, or didn’t have any idea what she wanted, or simply wanted to date, but never had any clear “you’re relationship material” notions. While it might be true that women are overall more “relationship oriented,” this doesn’t easily translate into the conclusion you’re offering here. In my view, the reality is that there are no assurances that getting a positive response to an ask will translate into the other person “really being into you” or seeing you “as relationship material.” Asking is a risk, no matter who does it.
What I find interesting is that there are a couple of men at the end of this thread disagreeing with the suggestion that men should be the ones who ask women out. In one case, Jason has tried asking women out in different places, and it hasn’t worked. Telling him to keep doing the same thing and suck up the rejection is pretty ridiculous in my opinion. Maybe he could try expanding his activity circle, or a new online dating site. Maybe if he’d let go of the past rejections, and have a more positive attitude about the whole thing, he might have better luck (whether or not he asks women out). Who knows. In the other case, Geoff and Jeremy are saying they like women asking them out. Now, if both of them are having a hard time finding a woman who will do this, then perhaps it’s time to experiment with doing the asking out.
Overall, after nearly a decade on and off of online dating experience, I find a lot of these hard and fixed conversations kind of funny. The fluidity and flexibility of the internet has broken down a lot of the formalities. One can argue that it’s gone too far, but that’s not the point here. What is is that it was totally easy enough for some woman I sent an e-mail to through dating site X to write back and suggest meeting up. This happened to me plenty of times. At the same time, it’s also true that shyer men can do the same without feeling the same level of fear that comes with an in person ask. I used to be shyer, but got to the point where I didn’t fear it much anymore. However, I still had women sometimes stepping up and asking me out first. While much of this applies to just online dating, I think some of it has also seeped into the rest of the dating world. Younger folks are just as likely to ask each other via text and/or IM as they are in person.
Tom10 says
@ Nathan
“Tom, in my experience, this isn’t true. I had literally dozens of 2nd and 3rd dates over the years, and there were plenty of times when the woman I was out with either wanted nothing more than a causal relationship….In my view, the reality is that there are no assurances that getting a positive response to an ask will translate into the other person “really being into you” or seeing you “as relationship material.” Asking is a risk, no matter who does it.”
Fair point Nathan; in dating there are no assurances. But there are odds, and getting good at dating involves learning how to play the odds and tilt them in our favor. Tilting the odds decreases potential risk (and hits to our self-esteem), whilst simultaneously increasing potential success (and boosts to our self-esteem).
You have agreed that women are overall probably more “relationship oriented” than men. So when a guy asks a woman out; the odds are high(er) that she is at least considering a potential relationship by saying yes.
Conversely, although men are less relationship oriented, they are more sex oriented (in the initial stages at least). So when a woman asks out a man; the odds might actually be quite low that by saying yes he is at least considering a potential relationship — as the guy is initially considering the potential sex on offer. These odds are not in the interest of a woman looking for a relationship.
Nathan, although I admire the way you advocate different approaches to dating, I do think dating is a game of odds that are based on real gender differences; which is why I usually agree with Evan’s dating strategies. I know that there are no assurances, but we can form sound dating strategies based on broad generalizations.
@ Karmic
Thanks, I love ya too 🙂
Nathan says
“Nathan, although I admire the way you advocate different approaches to dating, I do think dating is a game of odds that are based on real gender differences; which is why I usually agree with Evan’s dating strategies. I know that there are no assurances, but we can form sound dating strategies based on broad generalizations.” Tom, I tend to think differences in-group are much wider than those between group. Dating advice usually gives far too much attention to differences between men and women (actual and imagined), and not nearly enough attention to in-group differences.
Some broad generalizations can be useful early on in the dating process, but they can’t take you very far into any actual relationship with someone. In addition, I don’t think it’s much of a “win” if you have more “success” getting a foot in the door with a lot of people you aren’t really a good long term match for. If your seeking a long term relationship, just having more and more options isn’t really the goal. The goal is to be attractive to someone in a much smaller pool of matches that actually fit you. If learning to ask someone out helps a person be more successful in that smaller pool, then I’d support that strategy.
For me, a man in the middle of the alpha-beta spectrum, it was useful to learn how to ask a woman out. At the same time, I didn’t always need it. Especially when doing online dating. For a much shyer, more passive man, it actually might be better in the long run if he either learns to offer a soft ask (such as through e-mail), or develops other traits that a more alpha woman who wants to lead (yes, they do exist, my grandmother is one of them) will be attracted to enough to take a risk on. Go read a blog like Dr.NerdLove and you’ll see plenty of men who fit this profile. If I were to answer the question “Should women ask men out on first dates,” I’d say it depends upon what you seek in the long term. Women who seek a relationship leader probably shouldn’t ask men out because the kind of men they seek usually will do that already. Whereas if a woman seeks an equal playing field in terms of leadership and/or wants to lead, then perhaps asking men out sometimes is a good idea.
Regardless, in my experience, what made me a better dater (regardless of long term outcome) was developing the skills to better connect with the individual I was dating. So that even if we weren’t a long term (or even short term) match, the experience of going out was a positive and enjoyable one. Basic kindness, respect, being a good listener, sharing about yourself, having humor and lightness, paying attention to specific details about your date – all of this in my experience trumped things like who asked who out, who paid for dates, who called or wrote who first after a date, etc. What I’m saying is that once I put more of my energy into developing the skills and qualities that make a great long term partner, I found my overall experience of the process much more enjoyable. And the quality of dates I met much higher.
Michael Ejercito says
Here is something that does not make sense. tom claims that women would only go for the hot 20% if they were the ones asking men out on dates. And yet, in real life, how do women outside the hot 20% manage to get into relationships, if men only ask out the hot 20%?
Tom10 says
@ Michael
“how do women outside the hot 20% manage to get into relationships, if men only ask out the hot 20%?”
Michael, why is there a necessity for a blog for women looking for love? Why do women need relationship coaches? Why do we read about so much angst here from women looking for relationships?
Newsflash: women outside of the hot 20% struggle to find satisfactory relationships because they have deal with so many men lusting after the same hot women.
But this is where it gets interesting: the top 20% of men don’t behave the same as the top 20% of women. The top 20% of women only want their male equals (and will reject men they consider beneath them), whereas the top 20% of men are often more than happy to sleep with plenty of women who they don’t consider their equal (i.e. women in the 80%). Which is why I don’t think it’s sensible for women to ask men out for the first date. Make sense now?
Michael Ejercito says
Tom, are you implying that, on average, women are more judgmental than men?
Tom10 says
@ Michael
“Tom, are you implying that, on average, women are more judgmental than men?”
Well “judgmental” is the wrong word, rather that they are more discriminating. And yes, I’m saying that when it comes to understanding extramarital sexual behavior that men *are* more indiscriminate when it comes to casual sex. And there are scientific studies to prove my claim. And this is the reason that women asking men out is a poor dating strategy in my opinion.
Karmic Equation says
I’ve said it before, but I feel I must reiterate. Men are the ones who control the depth of the relationship. He’s the one who gets to decide whether the relationship is “sexclusive”; he’s the one who gets to decide if they marry.
The “price” of being able to control that decision is to be the one who “has to” ask the woman out first. That’s a very small price to pay for that kind of control. If a man is a player (or wanna be player) he can ask a woman out, have sex with her, give her the feeling that they’re exclusive, but because that talk has never taken place, he continues to date others, while the woman feels that she’s on track to–or is already in–an exclusive relationship. And when a “relationship” is in this phase, the man gets the benefits of being treated as a bf without actually having to be sexclusive. He lies by omission. And all he had to do was ask her out. That’s a lot of benefits for a small price.
Let’s say a woman DOES ask a man out first. She has NO CLUE if the guy is accepting because he likes her or because he just wants to get laid. And this ego-stroke to the guy, ultimately cedes over to him her ONLY power at the beginning of a relationship, which is decide if she likes him as much as he likes her. We all know that once a woman accepts that first date (if they met IRL, online dating is a different animal), odds are she is interested enough in pursuing a relationship with him. EVERY man knows this. So once a woman accepts, she’s played the only card she has.
What men like you, Geoff, are asking women to do is play that card out of turn, just because it would help you play yours. There are rules in poker for a reason. There are “rules” in dating for reason. To assure that there is an even-playing field for all the players. And giving up the ONLY control she has in a relationship, which is whether one can begin at all, is like a woman showing her cards out of turn, which helps everyone else at the table except herself. I think you will agree, that is playing poker extremely poorly and assures that she will lose. A woman asking a man out on a first date is equivalent to showing her cards out of turn and for no reason.
Believe me, if a woman could ensure that she “wins” if she shows her cards out of turn, e.g., control the depth of the relationship, whether the relationship becomes exclusive, whether the relationship becomes marriage—you can bet that women wouldn’t have any issues showing those cards whenever the mood strikes her.
You and I know that she’ll NEVER win at poker playing this way. So why are you asking her to play poker this way? Because YOU want to win.
Sorry, that’s a stupid move for women. And it’s not even a fair thing to ask. You would never ask a table full of men to play poker this way. Why would you ask a woman to play poker this way? Do you need to win that badly?
For a man to ask a woman out first is just playing fair. Anything else, and the man is asking to change the dating rules to his advantage, when ALREADY has practically ALL the advantages.
P.S. Tom10, I love ya. This statement is it in a nutshell:
“Rather than perceiving them as masculine or feeling emasculated, most likely they’ll simply sleep with her for a while, whilst still looking for the woman he really wants; the woman he wants so much that he’ll ask her out himself.”
Geoff says
Thanks, everyone, for your views.
@Karmic Equation: I found this sentence interesting, because it has not been my experience: “We all know that once a woman accepts that first date, odds are she is interested enough in pursuing a relationship with him.”
When I was in university I did manage to score a series of dates with a handful of women (i.e., getting to a second or subsequent date – as background I was one of those well-mannered nice guys who had lots of female friends, but had great trouble parlaying that into relationships), and each time I thought I was doing well.
I was wrong, of course. In one case the woman I was dating was also dating someone on student council, and dropped me after four or five dates (she was open about it, at least). In another, she decided she wasn’t into me and ended it. Regardless of my own role in how those relationships ended, the lesson I took from that (those were my first dating experiences) was that just because a woman agrees to go out on a date with you, that doesn’t necessarily mean she’s *really* interested in you. You might just be a stand-in until someone better (to her) comes along. This is why I do appreciate being asked out by a woman.
Just to be clear, I’m not trying to shoot you down or anything. Your remark made me think, it dredged up some memories, and gave me an opportunity to clarify why I believe what I do. Now that I am single again after a 15+ year relationship, and determined to find a better match, I’m trying to develop a more open mind to approaching dating. These discussions are helpful.
jeremy says
@Karmic
Gotta say, I don’t agree with your argument at all.
You wrote: “We all know that once a woman accepts that first date (if they met IRL, online dating is a different animal), odds are she is interested enough in pursuing a relationship with him.”
Respectfully, Karmic, this isn’t true at all. If a woman accepts a man’s request for a date, the only thing this signals to the man is that she considers him attractive enough to consider dating him – not that she is necessarily interested in a relationship with him, nor that she necessarily will want to have sex with him. She would need to get to know him first to know that. Which is EXACTLY what a man can assume if a woman asks him out – that she considers him attractive enough to ask out on a date, nothing else.
You write “Men are the ones who control the depth of the relationship. He’s the one who gets to decide whether the relationship is “sexclusive”; he’s the one who gets to decide if they marry.”
This is also patently untrue – or at least incomplete. Men and women each control the aspect of the relationship to which their default answer is “No.” For (most) women, that aspect is sex. For most women, the default for sex is “no”, while for men the default is “yes.” Thus, WOMEN control the depth of the relationship in the dimension of sexuality – they control what happens and when.
For (most) men, that aspect is commitment (ie. marriage). For most men, the default for commitment is no, while for women it is yes. There are many obvious reasons for this (which I won’t get into unless you want me to), but the fact is that the ONLY aspect of relationships that men control is whether or not they want to get married. Once they commit to marriage, they totally lose control in that dimension.
This is not a game of poker, Karmic. It is not a zero-sum game. It is simply a question of who wants what. If the man wants a date with a woman, he asks her – and he assumes the risk that she might say no. If a woman wants a date with a man, she can either ask him (as I suggest), or flirt passively (as Evan suggests) – either way, she takes some risk of rejection.
But the question of who asked whom out first is completely and totally irrelevant to the power structure of any future relationship that may ensue. What IS relevant to that power structure is the default position of each individual on any particular aspect in question. The one who controls sex is the one who wants it least. The one who controls marriage is the one who wants it least. The one who controls sexual exclusivity is the one who wants it least. And what makes a good match? When both parties want all of these things in somewhat equal measure.
Karmic Equation says
@Jeremy
You’re arguing semantics. Few women date to “just date”. Most women date to get into relationships. So, I stand my by words, if a woman agrees to a date with a man, she sees you as potential relationship material. That said, if while dating you she finds out you’re not actually relationship material, then the fact she doesn’t want a relationship with you is because she deems you’re not relationship-worthy, not because she dated you to “just date” or bed you without having any relationship thoughts in mind.
Men date to get sex. We all know that one doesn’t need a relationship to get sex. Sometimes “dating” a woman often enough will get him sex. But we all know that just because he’s dating her and having sex with her, doesn’t mean they’re “in a relationship”. That only happens when HE agrees to sexclusivity. (Sure some women don’t want relationships, but those are the exceptions, not the rule).
With regards to my statements about men controlling sexclusivity and marriage, again, you’re arguing semantics.
Women can’t have sexclusivity if the man doesn’t agree to it. He controls whether they’re sexclusive. (Again going by the rule, not the exceptions).
Most never-married women want to marry, but just because she wants to, does it mean he will marry her? Nope.
So if we agree that sexclusivity and marriage are the goals of most women, and she can’t reach them without his consent, she doesn’t control how deep that relationship goes. He does.
Yes, women control access to sex. But we all know that having sex doesn’t equal “relationship” to men. So women controlling access to sex only means she controls access to sex within whatever type of relationship or non-relationship she’s in. The GUY determines the DEPTH of the relationship as defined by sexclusivity and marriage. Women control the TYPE of relationship she’s in: booty call, f*ck buddy, sex-in-relationships only. Sex is sex. “Depth” has nothing to do with it, well, yeah, physically it does, but that’s not the type of depth we’re talking about here.
Carrie says
Well, I disagree with you Evan. I am a woman and DON’T LIKE to be asked out. First because many are players and second because I’m not interested on the guy who is interested in me. It’s my nature.
It’s annoying, uncomffortable, I’m shy but at least tried. The worse is to be passive and acting like a damsel in distress waiting for the guy to make a move. I’m a person who has feelings and will, I’m not a pretty submissive doll needing a guy who wants a trophy girlfriend. No sir. If I like someone, why not try it? If I keep waiting, I could be end alone or stading with a guy I don’t want/like/love/ feel nothing.
I can’t stand players but I don’t like being courted either. Most friends I had I made the first move in 90% times, if I waited, I would be friendless forever and wouldn’t talk to anyone. Most of times men don’t come to me, a few that did I wasn’t into them, people don’t go talk to me into being friends either, so I come to them. That’s simple. Why I have to be passive just because I’m a woman?
I know I’m an exception but I don’t care. I like being me. I don’t like this stupid gender rule.
I don’t think I would be happy being asked out or an annoying guy chasing after me just for his ego (I won her heart! Ha!), I want to be with the man I like not the guy who plays a role or a game to me. This isn’t love to me, it’s just ego game.
Jeremy is right, women can’t have feelings and conquer a guy she wants? She must to play like a trophy girlfriend for a guy to win her? She must be with a guy who plays the best game not the one she’s into? Come on!
I don’t know other women but I seriously hate it. Some women think being asked feeds their ego, I don’t.
Unless the guy I like do it (so the luck works). Otherwise, a big no.
Evan Marc Katz says
Great. Keep doing what you’re doing. As long as it’s working for you, I am 100% on Team Carrie.
Perry Rose says
I’m sorry, Evan, but you couldn’t be more wrong if you tried.
There are a lot of men, including me, who would love it if a woman approached us for a change.
“I was going to go over to (insert place here) sometime this week. Would you like to join me?” is all it takes.
Ladies, DO approach us. DO start a conversation. DO ask us out.
Only little boys wouldn’t like it.
Al says
Thank you. I’m glad to see a man who’s secure enough in himself not to feel threatened by being asked out on a date. I’m sorry, but that’s just sad.
Karmic Equation says
Al,
Men who won’t approach women are LAZY not secure.
Being not turned down by any man you’ve asked out affirms that you’re an attractive woman. And straight single men will rarely turn down dates with attractive women. But if you ask him out, you’re already telling him you want to have sex with him.
I don’t agree that men have to “earn” sex with a woman, but he doesn’t need it handed to him on a silver platter either. A little mystery goes a long way. You ask a man out, he believes it’s a done deal. Assuming you’re asking out alphas, that is. For betas, this would work better and they’re less likely to think you’re going to bed them, as they are insecure to start with, which is why they don’t ask you out first.
Al says
I don’t play games with men. I tell them what I’m interested in, what I hope to give and gain from our association and I expect them to be mature enough to do the same. If I want to sleep with someone I will be clear about that. If I want to wait I will be equally clear and they’d better be able to comprehend what I’m saying.
I think all of this hinting around, pretending, assuming and side stepping talking about relationships is juvenile and I simply don’t have time for that. Luckily, most men I encounter seem to feel the same way.
Also, sex is not the only way a woman can have an air of mystery. Some women are very capable of seducing a man sexually while remaining a force to be reckoned with in their own right. I’ve found that to be far more effective in keeping a man’s interest than all this simpering and eyelash fluttering. I’m passionate, strong, straightforward and independent and I expect men to rise to the same level. Shouldn’t we all expect adults to be able to effectively communicate this stuff?
Al says
Sorry, that last post should have said “Denying sex isn’t the only way for a woman to maintain an air of mystery.”
Maybe I’m unusual in this (though most of my friends are pretty much the same) but if I want to have sex with a man I intend for him to know that. Why would I want to pretend otherwise? How else are we supposed to get the deed done? I’m really not in favor of the whole, women should pretend not to want it so the man can feel like the big studly predator. That’s too close to “Your lips say no, but your eyes say yes” for my taste.
Karmic Equation says
HI Al,
You’ve obviously never read any of my posts in other threads. I’m an advocate for women having sex whenever SHE wants to and not wait until she’s “extracted” commitment from him. All my relationships, with the exception of with my first bf, all began with NSA sex. One even began with ONS.
Mystery is definitely more than about sex. But you don’t have any, Al. You put it all out there. He doesn’t get the FUN of peeling your layers and discovering a new you every few months. While mystery is certainly NOT about sex, it definitely is NOT letting a guy know where he stands every minute of every day. You turn a fun process into a business proposition. Not fun. And you end up setting a not-fun precedent the guy. But maybe you’re ok with that and the guy is ok with that because you’re both fuddy-duddies.
But I seriously doubt that. Courtships are supposed to be fun for both genders. Skip it and bypassing something special.
Al says
Oh, I think you’ve misunderstood me. I’m usually told I have more than enough mystery because I’m somewhat inscrutable. Men often complain that they don’t know where they stand with me. I most definitely don’t “put it all out there,” it’s just that what I hold back isn’t necessarily the sex act itself. That’s just surfacy stuff. It’s the deeper layers that matter. A man can get sex elsewhere and he will if a woman denies him long enough. If you get him wondering about what’s going on in your head, worried about how you FEEL about him, that’s when he’s hooked. I don’t do this on purpose, by the way, I’m just guarded, but I have noticed the trend.
The bottom line is that no one likes desperation, but that’s very different from being sexually available, especially if you tend to be a very sexual person by nature. Sex isn’t necessarily intimacy. I may want to have sex with a man but that certainly doesn’t mean I want to be committed to him.
Zap says
”
1) Should women ask out men on first dates?
No. No, they should not. Women asking men on first dates can be taken as aggressive, desperate, and masculine. At the very least, it can signify a loss of power.”
Any woman who doesn’t have the nerve to risk rejection is not worth dating in my book.
Katy says
Nancy, I met a wonderful man and gave him my number. After a couple of months, he called and asked to meet for a drink. I had a wonderful time. Some time past so I called and asked him out. He said “yes” immediately. 2 years later were still in contact growing. I was the aggressor and it worked out for me. He said he was flattered I asked him out.
Kate says
Evan, I love your advice. It makes so much sense to me and it frustrates me to see so many women resist it. The men who want the women to do the heavy lifting ” let her do the work. Always hint that you are interested. Never confirm it. Let HER wonder”- that just makes me laugh! I guess we weed each other out because if a man doesn’t make it VERY clear he is interested in me I cut bait quickly.
I used your advice and the great guy I’ve been dating for 6 weeks and I had sex for the first time 2 nights ago and last night he asked me to be his girlfriend! So thank you
Natalie says
So how do you know if they are type A or shy when you find them online? I almost never initiate conversation online or ask guys out unless it’s someone I really really am interested in. Sometimes I feel like guys are dropping the hint but they take forever to actually ask.
Lisa says
This makes the prospect of meeting “the one” very scary, I read the story, I read some the comments, and now I am sufficiently confident that I will indeed remain a eunuch for the rest of my life. Matters of the heart can be very sensitive, and I found that the world of dating/courtship is very unstable, what works for some will not work for others… Am I going to subject myself to the risk of heartbreak every time I notice someone and they don’t reciprocate my feelings/attention? I can’t say i have tried every avenue to get someone to notice me, but at this point I am exhausted…
Al says
Oh good grief! Are we living in the 50’s? Seriously? I ask guys out whenever I feel like it and I’ve never been turned down. Not once, ever. Most guys totally appreciate a woman who doesn’t play stupid head games. Besides, if a guy “wouldn’t respond well” to being asked out he’s a weak POS that I wouldn’t want to date anyway. Grow a pair for crying out loud and don’t be so afraid of women!
Karmic Equation says
Just curious.
How long were your relationships with the men you asked out?
How many of your relationships of more than 3 months started with your asking a guy out?
Al says
Well, my 17 year marriage began with me both asking him out initially AND being the one to propose marriage. Most of my relationships prior to him lasted between one and two years. However, I was fresh out of college and wasn’t terribly committed to anyone before I met my ex husband. All of my prior relationships were ended by me, not because the guy was upset that I’d been the one to ask him out.
Evan Marc Katz says
Al, you have masculine energy. It’s not a bad thing. Just know that the best fit for you guy is the passive/feminine guy who prefers that you ask him out/propose, instead of expecting confident/masculine guys to feel good that you’re doing their job.
Al says
I can appreciate that Evan. I have always been assertive, though I don’t think that necessarily equates to “Masculine.” I look very feminine and am extremely nurturing. Nobody who actually met me would say, “Oh, she’s butch” by any stretch. I like short skirts and manicures too much for that.
I prefer men to be neither Macho nor Passive, but intelligent and mature, equals so to speak. Maybe I shouldn’t be wasting your time on this site, since I generally have no problem finding men to date, though I DO admittedly get frustrated just like everyone else. I’m well aware that I’m very choosy but I’m OK with that for now. I’ll change my approach when/if I need to. I just think this forum is really interesting and some very relevant things get discussed here.
Evan Marc Katz says
Appreciate it, Al. You want what everyone wants: the nice guy with balls. But there are tradeoffs. It sounds to me like you and I are the same: 65% masculine, 35% feminine. These are made up numbers, but bear with me. Feminine has nothing to do with skirts or manicures. It’s a way of being. Masculine energy is DOING. Feminine energy is RECEIVING. Masculine is about control. Feminine is about letting go of control. Masculine is about winning. Feminine is about getting along. Masculine is about ego. Feminine is about supporting others. Of course you have feminine energy – just not as much as you think. Your best fit, therefore is a guy who is more laid back, passive, and agreeable, because you’re very direct and assertive. That doesn’t mean you are a guy. It DOES mean your masculine energy predominates. The women who argue with me most on the forum – often the brightest, most analytical, critically thinking women – are often the most masculine. Masculine energy needs feminine energy.
Karmic Equation says
Hi Al,
Thanks for the reply.
1) You have great guy-dar for the guys that are compatible with you, so keep on keeping on 🙂 I really mean this in a non-snarky way. Believe me, if I wanted to be snarky, I wouldn’t be denying it, even sarcastically.
2) Building the mystery is FUN, i.e., being courted is FUN. And I don’t mean building it by “playing games” — why is it that women who consider themselves “forthright” always believe if you don’t “put it all out there” you’re playing games?
I think the reason is simple, and, again, I don’t mean this is a snarky way.
As Evan has pointed out you have masculine energy. You go out and get what you want. You got the men you wanted, but eventually you didn’t want to keep them, right? You said you ended them all, as well as started them all. Have you ever analyzed why?
My quick guess is that they eventually bored you or exhausted you. You found men who liked your taking the lead (aka your masculine energy). But 1-3 years or even 17 years later, weren’t there times where you wished HE would take initiative every now and then instead of letting you do all the work in leading?
If I guessed correctly, then while you successfully BEGAN relationships with men you desired them with, and who were fine with your masculine energy (which usually meant that he had more feminine energy than you) — that the times when you were in YOUR feminine energy, they didn’t know how to make you happy. And over time this may have hurt you or annoyed you in turns, to the point where you had to end the relationship.
The courtship dance, when you build the mystery as I call it — but perhaps the more learned would call courtship the time where both of you are setting the bars for your masculine and feminine polarities — is what will help sustain the relationship beyond the 3 years. I mean once it’s decided who wears the pants in the family, so to speak, it’s hard for both parties to accept pant-wearer as the skirt-wearer when she changes her mind.
So the courtship dance as I call it is when the woman deliberately lets the guy wear the pants (even though she’s just as comfortable in them)…so that further down the road, when you feel like wearing a skirt, he knows what to do.
But wearing a skirt when you’ve been wearing pants all your life is a scary thing. I know this because, physically, I only wear skirts/dresses maybe twice a year. All the other times I’m in slacks or jeans. It feels weird to PHYSICALLY wear a skirt. I’m sure it feels just as strange EMOTIONALLY for masculine energy women.
But the caution is that it’s IMPOSSIBLE for a woman to stay in her masculine energy for the duration of her relationship. For example, I’m sure pregnancy and motherhood really messes with her masculine energy. And those are the toughest time for a masculine man who has a feminine wife to handle, so how difficult do you think it would be for a feminine energy man to handle his now suddenly feminine-energy wife whom he’s used to only seeing in her masculine energy?
Let the guy be the guy during courtship and he won’t forget how to be the guy later on.
And it’s FUN to be chased. It’s ego-boosting to CATCH the fish. But it’s more fun to let the fish catch us and think it’s all HIS idea. However, there IS more angst for the woman when she lets the guy lead in courtship. Which brings me to my third point:
3) I believe that masculine energy women hate feeling anxious or they really hate having to exert self-control (most people do). They can deal with rejection better than they can deal with anxiety or exert self-control. Hence asking men out for them are no big deal. Ultimately, I wouldn’t have a problem asking men out. But I don’t want to set the pant-wearing precedent, where he forgets how to put them on somewhere down the line.
Al says
Thanks Evan. You and Karmic have given me another way to see this. I agree that it’s important for me to look at how the energy I am giving off translates to the man. Perhaps it would benefit me to let my softer side out a little more in the earlier stages rather than waiting until I trust someone more to show vulnerability.
Al says
Karma: There’s sure a lot to think about there. That’s why I enjoy this site so much. For sure, you have a point about sometimes wishing my ex would step up to the plate and stop being so apathetic. However, this wasn’t a behavior he evidenced in the beginning or I wouldn’t have been interested. I am absolutely not attracted to weak, passive men. Most people found my ex to be quite intimidating. He certainly had “Presence.”
My marriage ended primarily due to my ex’s refusal to seek help for a drug addiction that he fell into several years after we were together, not because I got bored with him. Quite the contrary, I loved him deeply (still do) and begged him to get help for over a decade before throwing in the towel because I finally realized that I couldn’t force him to help himself. So, while I appreciate the thought that went into your assessment, I believe it’s unwise to paint people as so one dimensional. Masculine/feminine, aggressive/passive. Most people have rich inner lives and are capable of being multi-faceted.
I also think it’s patently false to equate strength with “Masculinity.” Women have had to be tough cookies from the beginning of time so let’s not forget that our inner power has always existed. I am a strong woman. That does not make me “mannish” or overbearing. I actually prefer to wear skirts over pants and am very feminine in appearance. I prefer to make decisions by discourse and consensus rather than laying down the law or taking the reins. There’s a huge difference between bravado and true inner strength, whether you are male or female. Part of legitimate strength is understanding your own emotions and being able to express them openly. I’ve never been afraid to be gentle, soft or nurturing. I see no problem with people having and expressing the full range of human emotions.
I agree that courtship is FUN. For me that entails getting to know someone, great conversation, those first blushes of attraction. I just don’t think there needs to be all this manipulation involved, because that’s what these tactics really are. “Play hard to get, don’t let him know you’re interested, always act busy,” etc… That is the definition of playing head games. You can get to know a smart, funny, cute person without having to pretend you’re something you’re not. In fact, I honestly think it’s better not to dissemble because then you are setting up false expectations.
Karmic Equation says
Hi Al,
I’m sorry about your ex’s addiction. I had to end a 6yr relationship with a man I could have happily lived the rest of my life with because he became a raging alcoholic. I know exactly where you’re coming from. He was definitely more emotional (feminine energy) than I who am more logical (masculine energy). We were great complements and that’s why the relationship worked.
I have a lot of masculine energy myself as indicated in the way I normally express myself on this site and in the direct way I communicate. No holds barred.
But I know distinctly the difference between masculine strength and feminine strength. They’re both not the same, and it’s perfectly ok for men and women to have a combination of both types of strength. However, I always feel that women who have masculine strength object to categorizing anything as masculine and feminine, as if there was something wrong with being either or both. There isn’t.
Having feminine energy is more than just LOOKING and dressing femininely. It’s ok to have masculine energy as a woman. There is nothing wrong with that, except its denial.
This site explains the differences best: http://www.lovesedona.com/02.htm
I agree with your definition of playing games. But that wasn’t what we were discussing, so don’t change the subject 🙂
The more masculine (in energy) (generic) you are means the less masculine he has to be to make a harmonious relationship. There isn’t any right or wrong in the kind of energy a person has. It just means they need to be aware of what their own energy is so as to better choose a mate whose energy is complementary to hers, rather than a duplicate. To that end, you can’t deny the existence of masculine or feminine energy because then you eliminate a way to evaluate your potential mate’s compatibility with yours.
And getting back on topic, Tom10 in his replies to posts in 312.1.1 best expresses why it’s not in a woman’s best interest to ask men out on dates. There was an article that I used to have bookmarked on my but can’t find. It basically summarized that when a girl asks a guy out, she’s giving him a “get of of jail free card” when he wants to end a relationship, after all it was HER idea, not his, right? You can’t blame a guy for not refusing to spend time with an attractive woman who asks him out, right?
Al says
Karmic: Thanks for the sympathy. You have mine as well for having loved an addict yourself. It’s a tough road to travel when you want the best for someone and just can’t break through.
But anywhoo… Ok, now I get the whole masculine/feminine energy thing cause I read your link. It helps to know what philosophy you’re referring to because there are other ways of looking at the topic, plus some folks (like me) who don’t really feel the need to label strength in terms of masculine v/s feminine. I think strength just IS and anyone, regardless of gender, is capable of evidencing it in it’s many forms. Still, we are in agreement, I think. Using the definitions on that web page, I’d say I’m pretty evenly balanced between the two sides (I’m very concerned with the well being of others) which is probably why I’m drawn to men who have a equal amounts of both as well. My ex was actually really low on the feminine energy as described there. I will probably lean toward men who are imbued more with the gentleness and kindness this next time around just because I got so burned by my ex’s Narcissism. But he can’t be a total wimp either. 😉
As for the idea that asking a guy out first gives him some kind of “get out of jail free card?” I just can’t get behind that. I’m only interested in intelligent, grown men who can take responsibility for their part in a relationship. Anyone who would see that as giving them an “out” is emotionally stunted and THEY are the ones in dire need of relationship coaching.
nanoo says
It’s going to be end of mine day, but before finish I am reading this fantastic piece of writing to increase my experience.
judy says
Evan, your advice about the shy guy is spot on. I am now (nearly) dating a dream man. He needs a lot of encouragement (There’s something about a close fitting dress that brings out the man in a shy man :o)
We work on the same floor in the same building (but met somewhere else, yep!) and told me himself that once bitten, twice shy. So far, I’m making slow but sure progress.
I have given him many opportunities, and he has taken most of them.
If it helps someone else, it also seems to be important to him that it’s on his own terms (as in, I may be shy, but I make my own decisions).
Well ho hum.
Keep you posted.
Sharon says
I just recently, while intoxicated, invited a guy to call me, and gave him my number through text. I hope he calls. But if he doesn’t, or he is not that interested, than so be it. No big loss.
I have to say that before I made this move, I was already getting ready to be a little more bold, as I felt an attraction with him and we had been flirting in the office and well, I felt comfortable to.
Many a guys ask for my number, or try to, and on occasion I will give them my number, but many a times, I am not that interested.
Sure I could have been more coy. and I had been, but I thought it would be a pleasurable thing to be honest and up front. I am not confessing my undying love, which really doesn’t exist at this point. But being honest about my feelings.
People like to have guidelines to follow to make things more orderly and comfortable, but sometimes, it can be important to break the status quo, to create something really meaningful.
How he chooses to answer to my last move, will tell me something about him and will also let me know whether it’s worth my time or not. I work with the guy and while, it might be a little awkward, it ain’t that big of a deal. Thankfully, I don’t hinge my self worth and identity, on these momentary experiences.
iris says
I asked my husband out. It worked out pretty well. He was always flirting with me so I knew he liked me, but he never asked me out which was becoming increasingly frustrating. Turns out he was just scared of rejection and I’m a pretty closed person and men just have trouble reading me because I’m shy and just act like I want nothing to do with men who I am crazy about. I’d had too many experiences where guys who I was crazy about but never asked me out admitted to me years later that they had a huge crush on me but were convinced that I couldn’t stand them or had friend zoned them, so I just bit the bullet and asked him out. Two kids and 10 years later it seems like it was a good idea.
iris says
PS. I think this is just advice for “alpha males”. You know the kind who want to spread their seed across the earth and for whom the word commitment brings terror and rage. I think most marriage material men who are yes “less masculine” being more nurturing, open hearted, better communicators and in short better fathers and husbands, would have no problem being asked out. I read somewhere that in most long lasting and successful relationships the men develop lower than normal male levels of testosterone and the women develop higher than normal female levels of testosterone and the roles become less black and white.
John says
Most of what Evan says is pretty well the reality. I’d just like to add after decades of soaking in and up TONS of dating stimuli, that since females are suppose to be long since Liberated thus Equality is suppose to be exercised, then Equality should not be only include Equal Opportunity For Careers (which is the case), shouldn’t it apply to not mattering who asks who out? That’s true Equality. Yet this is not, the Reality. What’s real is this > today, women have just as much Income as men especially younger women AND separated/divorced EX wives can be doing better than men too. So, whoever is doing the asking, not only will have to pay on first date, but in setting this precedent of usually the man, it will be expected that HE put out more than her from then on. This is not right or moral. It may be instinctive or natural that men USE TO ALWAYS to the asking and thus pay when they became the sole bread winners however, those days are long gone for so many out there. In fact, a huge reason why so many younger men don’t date is because of the Income problem. Same for many older men who are damaged goods after a split when children are involved. They’ve often given up the home to the EX where the children spend most of their time, and he pays child support. A father in that position isn’t about to feel like asking many women out while licking his wounds. I’m an advocate of going dutch for sure. Having shared these concerns, the dates I had in the past where the women initiated, did not work out well even though it was always easy for me to sit back and let them come to me because there were so many. if I were to do it over again knowing what I know now, for certain it would ME doing the asking. IF I received a no, on to another woman I would go and forget the shyness or rejection. Easier said than done in your 20s and green under the collar.
Men, through the years with its ups and downs with females, do not get hung up thinking that there’s only ONE for you so IF she says no, you will be depressed for the rest of your days. BAD move. Carry on with other prospects who tickle your fancy so to speak.
John says
I agree with Evan for the most part accept for YES, a woman should most certainly ask a man out even if he isn’t taking that step. Why? Firstly, a woman can tell if a man likes them and of so, most men (more than women) will then say YES. How does that make the woman feel? Wonderful. Secondly, that man likely wouldn’t ask you out (like so many will not do today) for so many reasons most people already know. Economic – academic Status is one big reason and of course the initial fear of rejection. There’s also, she is just too attractive so will say NO. Once you are out together, he will soon come into his own and thereafter, who asks who out is forgotten.
So many women who do not ask a man out get left hanging for sometimes years with regrets such as IF ONLY I had asked say David out. Time waits for no-one. I have had women ask me out and have always said YES. I have had tons of women who have take interest but I rarely asked them out, which on my side of things like you, was a mistake. Equality, which BTW I don’t believe in, surely has given women what it takes to ask a man out? It doesn’t mean you are taking control or that he’s not a man. Men can be very shy too. AGAIN, most men will say YES and pay his way too, while more women as stats show, will say no. Rejection therefore, comes more from men asking women out, which is yet another reason why more and more today do not.
Gregory says
Great point,John! I have NEVER asked a woman out, never really knowing if she is really interested. When she asks ME out, I pay and we do the town,since I can KNOW that she is actually interested. I cannot imagine ANY other way!
John says
I see what you mean. If there’s ever a date for me again, I will do the asking because every situation wherein she asks me out, it has turned into her power-tripping me Greg. So it could be that the people herein who say a man should do the asking and face rejection, are right.
Daniel says
I strongly disagree that women shouldn’t ask me on dates ever. I prefer women to ask me on dates. It is the 21st century, time for complete equality.
Tiffany says
Some part of me feels like this is sound advice but another part of me, the independent woman, the goal oriented woman, the woman taught to go after what she wants and never to stop until I get it rejects this advice as antiquated. First lets discuss how men’s gender roles have changed in modern times. Men are now taught that they should have women throwing themselves at them. This is there new ultimate goal and they are no longer taught to pursue a woman they are interested in. Women now are more independent than we have ever been in history. Even women who struggle financially and don’t have the best education still find that they have to do everything to support themselves and their families. They don’t have time to wait on any one to give them the OK to go after what they need, they have to take what they need and want. Men nowadays are taught that they have little accountability. They no longer feel the pressure to provide, many feel as if it is perfectly fine to let the woman work and support them. These are the same men that let women come to them, put them down and make them feel insecure so the woman won’t wake up and realize that she could be fine alone. No matter how well a woman’s feminine wiles work, they won’t be enough to change today’s dynamic.
This is the scope of dating today. Women have to decide if they want to turn off their alpha female, we have to decide if we should shut off our heightened hunter sense and become the pursued. How in the world can a woman dial back her daily hustle to be that shrinking violet that men want? In today’s world of dating, women’s gender roles have changed so drastically that we don’t know how to be pursued when all the men in our sphere have been taught that they don’t have to work hard to pursue the things that they want. We have to show so much assertiveness and initiative to make our dreams come true or simply to just survive and we look for that in our equals, for a man who is doing the same thing that we are meeting your goals and making your life better. But you all are so few and far between. We women are asking you to step up! Work just as hard as we do. When you see something go after it instead of waiting for it to come to you. If you are naturally wired to be the hunters and pursers than do that to the best of your ability. We women are not going to wait for you forever.
Reality says
Seriously? Women asking us men out? God forbid if they did.
Linda says
I couldn’t disagree more with Evan here. Waiting around for a man to throw you a bone (literally) sucks. This is the kind of [email protected] peddled by elders and society in general to keep women down. I’m almost 43 and never get asked out. Recently I realised the problem is me – not that I’m not a catch, but I don’t take the initiative. Now I start asking, and with some success. It puts the woman in the driving seat. Waiting for men to ask you out breeds bitterness, fear, envy and resentment. From a purely physical perspective, the responsibility should be the woman’s anyway – men, for obvious reasons, have the power to hurt a woman. Effecting a cultural shift towards a position where the woman by default does the asking will bring about more openness and happiness for all.
Allie says
So true, waiting for men to ask you out does suck and ruins girl friendships.
Georgiana says
You say let them pursue you, but they dont and I have a certain age, waiting for them to do it.
What do you think about nice men who are intimidated by beautiful women? How can a beautiful woman (fed up with player hunters of a bad quality) pursue a good nice man without seeming desperate ? Can she pursue him several times if he doesn’t do it at all? People tell me that I am too pretty and because of my career nice men are scared. I am so polite and nice to all people, shall I give up my career or stay single?
For instance, to have an idea of my life,I met a man -network party,, I talked to him (I went to him, not him )then later I wrote him an email asking him out. He answered yes, we went out, he seemed shy and his face was red. He did not call since then, nor write me . I think, let’s say 60% that he liked me, but I feel shy to write him again. We have no friends in common, I only have that mail. The problem is that in my town there are mostly women and he’s new in town, he’ll be taken soon if I don’t do something and wait for him to do…What do you suggest? I am very shy and afraid of rejection. Thank you
JT says
I see so much incorrect information and dating mythology on the internet!! Of course it’s fine for a woman to ask a man out, why wouldn’t it be? It’s wrong to say that if a man doesn’t ask a woman out then he’s not interested, that is a total myth!!! We are all individuals and human beings first and foremost!! So whoever wants to ask the other out just do it!!
To Tell The Truth says
Yes women should ask men out if she is interested, and men will more often say yes than when men ask women out; so there’s less chance of rejection. As for who pays when she asks him out, almost always a man will pay his way therefore “going Dutch” applies. And GD is the way it should be too. Both make incomes so why should one have to pay for the other. Also, a growing number of men can ill afford to pay for dates. If females don’t start asking men out, as fewer men are doing this due to financial reasons plus others too like they receive so many Nos; there will be a lot more onely childless females saying Man Up … this latest insult only serves to turn men away.
Inagreement says
And have you ever said yes to a woman? Because if you find yourself getting female attention, your response might surprise you. Even when a guy says yes to be polite, I believe he’s less likely to encourage a follow-up date than he might have been had he decided to ask her out first.
Allie says
This can be the same for women, I feel less interested in guys that ask me out because there was no fun of the chase.
Allie says
I agree, as a women I want equal pay which means I am also more comfortable going dutch and would not hesitate to ask out a guy that I like. Thats equality.
Carrie says
I don’t know… but I don’t the idea of guys asking me out or courting me. I don’t like being passive.
The idea of rejection is horrible, specially to me who isn’t out going at all but I like more the idea of trying to conquer a guy I want then a guy come to me… it’s annoying. I have a weird nature but I don’t like the idea of “women being passive, men get women they want while you wait the guy as a princess inside a tower just waiting for the prince.” This idea sucks for me.
Allie says
Agreed, I find it much funning to go after the guy I want even if there is a chance of being rejected.
Allie says
I don’t really see the difference between making it obvious with your body language that you want a guy to ask you out and just asking the guy out. If I really like a guy I will ask him out. Normally the guy was already interested in me, but was to shy or unsure if I was interested in him to ask me out. . Personally I find that waiting for the guy I want to ask me out, while lots of guys I’m not interested are asking me out, to be very frustrating and take forever. I have only ever been in one relationship where I did not ask for the first date. I have never had a guy be unhappy that I asked him out. I have also been the one to ask for sex first. If women don’t ask for anything I’m afraid they will end up in relationships that they don’t want that and have no say in. Also, calling the guy the aggressor makes me feel like I’m being weirdly hunted and possibly about to be murdered when all I want is a best friend to do life with because life is more enjoyable when you have someone to share it with.
mike says
What is this the 1950’s? If a women wants equal rights why can’t she swallow her pride and ask him out?
Evan Marc Katz says
She can. Except with most men, she doesn’t need to.
allen says
time to move on…. female reputational defense theory is a scapegoat to not accept the adult risk associated with relationship efforts. its all in The Relationship Pamflet. time for everyone to make equal effort and take equal risk. 🙂
Cliff says
If women will not ask men out on a date, then they are not equals and should not be treated as such.
Michael says
I’m a 36 year old man and I’ve never asked a women out. I’ve also never been asked out by a woman. I would love to go on dates with women like so many other guys get to do, but my intense shyness prevents me from even talking to them. If I did smile or say hello to a woman, I’m certain she would be horrified and either run away or – worse – accuse me of harassment. It’s best for guys like me to avoid social situations because no matter what I do, watching other guys get with women I find attractive (but who could never be interested in me) is too painful. Best of luck to everyone else out there!
Kayla says
My Great Grandmother asked my Great Grandfather out on a date, the rest is history.
No one back then thought about ” masculine ” vs ” feminine ” energy, they didn’t obsess , they acted. These ideas about ” feminine ” as passive has no go, it’s ludicris and leaves women with fewer choices.
If a man doesn’t like a woman to ask him out on a first date , then that is an indication he is mundane and trapped by dull societal norms.
MilkyMae says
Kayla, thank you for posting. My grandmother asked out my grandfather to go on a bowling date. Donna Reed asked out Jimmy Stewart in one of the most famous love story movies of all time(1940’s). Previous generation(s) seemed to know how to get things done.
SeriousCat says
You can blame feminism and poundmetoo for making men leave the plantation.
Women have essentially ruined western civilization by making themselves so undesirable with their incessant man hating ideologies.
Men do not approach you because of false rape accusations. Women have too much power to destroy men’s lives in this modern age, and they have an accountability for it.