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Yet the vast majority of people eventually get married – just at a different pace than before. According to my favorite expert on this subject, Stephanie Coontz, “Today the average age of first marriage is almost 27 for women and 29 for men, and the range of ages at first marriage is much more spread out. In 1960, fewer than 8 percent of women and only 13 percent of men married for the first time at age 30 or older, compared with almost a third of all women and more than 40 percent of all men today. Most Americans still marry eventually, and they continue to hold marriage in high regard.”
There’s been far too much blather about the death of marriage.
All the talk about smart, strong, successful women pricing themselves out of the market? Also untrue. “New research by the sociologist Leslie McCall reveals that while marriage rates have fallen for most women since 1980, those for the highest earning women have increased, to 64 percent in 2010 from 58 percent in 1980. Women in the top 15 percent of earners are now more likely to be married than their lower-earning counterparts.”
It’s no surprise to me. With education and upward mobility comes self-esteem, more options, and better decision making. A woman making $100K is less likely to marry a bad man simply for stability than a woman who has no education and two kids out of wedlock.
Finally, the old statistic that living together hurts your prospects of marriage? It’s history – at least for professional women.
“Two-thirds of couples who marry today are already living together. For most of the 20th century, couples who lived together before marriage had a greater chance of divorce than those who entered directly into marriage. But when the demographer Wendy Manning and her colleagues looked at couples married since 1996, they found that this older association no longer prevailed. For couples married since the mid-1990s, cohabitation before marriage is not associated with an elevated risk of marital dissolution.”
Any suggestion that marriage is a dying institution or a recipe for failure is based on your own experience, not on the actual facts.
As always, if you don’t want to get married and you’d rather be single, that’s your business. But any suggestion that marriage is a dying institution or a recipe for failure is based on your own experience, not on the actual facts.
Click here to read the article and share your thoughts on marriage below. Do you believe in the institution?
I’m getting married for the first time at 39 years old 9 days from today…older brides/grooms are where it’s at….
I was married once have no desire to be married again. IMO marriage will continue to exist there are financial benefits to being married and for those who want to reproduce/build wealth it makes sense. Some need the legal security that marriage offers.
I was reading something about the marriage rate being the lowest it’s been in many years. This seems like a good thing to me fewer marriages/fewer divorces.
These quotes do not really provide any evidence that marriage is not on the decline. To play Devil’s Advocate: simply showing that people get married later in life, that the highest-earning women are more likely to be married, and that folks living together before marriage are no longer more likely to get divorced doesn’t speak to the overall rate of marriage.
It is interesting that the highest-earning women are more likely to be married, though. However, one must always get behind the numbers when statistics are presented. For instance, it’s worth considering how old the highest-earning women were in 1980 compared to today. It is possible that they were much younger then than today because the generations of women prior to the generation that worked back then were largely homemakers. The highest-earning women today are more likely to be over 40, and therefore, more likely to be married.
Something to consider.
I think it’s on the way out. Seems to be the trend. A hundred years ago you had to be married, no matter how you felt. Then you had to be married, but you also had to be in love. Then you probably would get married, but you wouldn’t stay if you weren’t in love or if it was bad. Then you didn’t have to get married, you could just be in love. And now there is active antipathy toward marriage, or just not caring about it at all. I doubt there’s going to be a big resurgence of marriage socially. I can’t imagine what would drive such a trend reversal.
Most of the teenagers and 20 year-olds I know aren’t really into coupling up the way my parents were. As time goes on they’ll have to figure out whether marriage is a viable and sustainable institution for the world they live in. One of the kids I mentor (14 yr old) is talking about living to be 150. Whether this will happen or not, this is the concept that informs his future. His mom, on the other hand, is talking about how he’s going to be married and a dad in his 20s. This is a concept that informed her past.
I very much doubt that he’s dreaming about being married to the same woman for 120+ years. A major disconnect between the generations there.
I don’t necessarily think marriage is dying, I think the change indicates that our society’s values are changing. Marriage used to be the norm and now we realize we have other – either delaying or forgoing marriage altogether.
I’m one of those high earners, now in my mid 30’s. Have always wanted to get married and still hope for that but at the same time I realize that my relationship status is not necessarily something that has to define me.
Make no mistake though, it seems most of us would still like to be married. Gay marriage became legal today in my state and many loving couples are lining up to get married. The ability to have that legal union is still very important for them. Maybe the some of the rest of us have been taking that for granted?
I read somewhere that marriage is actually increasing the inequality in America. Since the educated tend to stay married, they accrue even more wealth. But the uneducated tend to have a higher divorce rate, so they have even lower income (relatively to before). It’s those from the lower SES who should be getting married and staying married, they’d benefit from marriage a lot.
Myself, I will probably get married, though this is due to my personality more than anything else. It makes me a little sad that we spend more of our adult lives not being married (though this doesn’t necessarily mean we’re not partnered up). Makes me think there’s a lot of lonely people out there.
I’ve never noticed anything resembling a decline in the rate or interest in marriage. In fact, most of the women in my life (family, friends, and relationship partners) seem to have the same sort of idea that Girl In The Midwest expressed above; for some reason not being married equates to loneliness. The judgment of a woman’s success in life (and to a lesser extent, a man’s success) still seems very much tied to marital status. For evidence, I submit the popularity of the swath of wedding related shows, some of which Google tells me are in their 10th season: A Wedding Story, Say Yes to the Dress, Bridezillas, Engaged and Underage, etc. I should also include the popularity of wedding-related internet boards like Wedding Bee and OffBeat Bride.
I agree with [email protected] Marriage is never going to go away. People will always want to connect with someone. I know so many people who have been divorced and remarry right away, like within 5 years or sooner. And I am still waiting to get married once! I don’t know how these people who manage to get married once do it when I can’t seem to do it. I guess I am more particular and able to tolerate being independent because I don’t want to be that person that remarries. I want to find the right partner and that’s it. I know one person who is just a year older then me and has already been married 3 times and she is only 35. Hopefully 3 is a charm for her.
I think on some level I feel I am not quite whole unless I am married. Probably more so the message our society sends us women. Definitely a woman’s value goes up if she is married. She is automatically seen as more responsible, especially if she has kids. But not being married and having kids doesn’t mean you aren’t responsible or have the capacity to sacrifice. People just perceive you differently whether you have kids and are married vs single. They think we always have fun but it’s not easy being on your own and having to do everything on your own resources.
Interesting question!
I do not think that statistics can predict future trends because the institution of marriage is rapidly changing in the USA, and I predict that alternatives are progressively going to be created and give similar rights. So who know what’s going to happen?
I’m originally from a Europeean country where marriage seems to be losing in favor of cohabitations or domestic partnerships. My cousins and friends living there are not getting married. The main reason is that marriage does not offer that much more benefit whereas the divorce rate scares never-married people. In my country of origin, everyone gets free health care, you can visit your partner in the hospital, banks would give you mortgages even if you are not married, and custody laws will not penalize unmarried couples.
If I had stayed in my country and partnered up with a compratriot, I would not have been that attached in entering a marriage. A public declaration of life-long commitment would have been sufficient for me to take that serious step in the relationship. However, living in the USA and knowing that I had 99% chances of ending up with someone of a different citizenship made me very attached in involving the state in the process of entering a life-long commitment.
Reasons:
1. Having the possibility of adding the spouse to a health insurance plan.
2. The right to visit the spouse at the hospital.
3. Benefits for the spouse in my home country in case of relocation.
4. Legal recognition of joint finances
So basically I do not “believe” in the institution of marriage. I do not think it makes relationships stronger. It’s character, compatibility, and commitment that make relationships work. Therefore my opinion about marriage depends on where the marriage would be contracted (local laws) and what stage of life I would be in. Being in the USA and in my thirties, I’m all for it, but if I had been in another country and/or a later stage in life, I would have made a very different choice.
However I would never had ended in one of those undefined long-term cohabitation where it’s the mortgage or the baby that “symbolize” the commitment. I would still have wanted to receive a personal statement of intent. Promises to the bank or to the kid would not do it for me : )
That sounds like marriage to me.
Marriage as a state registered partnership may be in decline but there are plenty of unregistered partnerships that endure. In the UK, about half of births are to unmarried mothers but in the great majority of cases, the father registers the birth. Social security in the UK discourages marriage and cohabitation. This has weakened marriage amongst the generality of the poor and their middle class emulators.
I think it’s changing and although the trend seems to be that marriage is dying I think it will come back. I’ll tell you my experience.
In my 20’s and early 30’s I had a hard time dating. I’m above average in looks. College educated. Earn a good living. But the type of women I wanted to be with had options. Can’t blame them for taking advantage and not ‘settling’ with me.
Now just hitting 40. I can tell you. From about mid 30’s things have completely reversed. It’s easier and easier to date the type of women I’m attracted to. And therein lies the dilemma. Until I find someone that blows my mind or I notice dating NOT becoming easier each year. I don’t find the urgency to marry anymore. I don’t blame the women years ago for not ‘settling’ with me. I don’t see why I need to settle when things are constantly IMPROVING on my end.
But the power, for a long time, was with women. I think stories like mine if they become common will just mean women will prioritize marriage and not put it off so long and expect men to just be there when they are ready.(Especially when all the sudden dating is becoming easier for the type of men they want.) And when that happens marriage will start to pick back up.
@ Morris
Your experience sounds pretty superficial…..
Forgot to mention, it’s also worth noting that an increasing number of men, particularly young men, are avoiding marriage because they see it as taking a huge risk without any benefits.
@Chance 13: Where are you getting the idea that an “increasing number” of men are avoiding marriage because of perceived risk? We’ve known about the risk/reward ratio for some time now.
@Morris 11: Since you’re being accused of having a “superficial” experience, I’ll step in and say that I had a very similar experience, except the turn came right around 30 for me. Dating was incredibly difficult in my 20s and all of the power was with the women who were choosing men who weren’t long term material (IMO). But right at 30 — as the first wave of divorces were getting finalized, and the PhD’s started graduating and getting a foothold in the workplace, and as women tired of play-dating idiots finally decided to take things seriously — my dating stock jumped exponentially. As a well-educated nice guy with a good job, I was, for the first time in my life, in shockingly high demand.
When that reversal happened, I almost immediately found the love of my life (Match.com…it works people), which was a huge blessing, but a little bit of a curse as well. I never had much time to go out there and “play the field” like I would have wanted to. And as you said, things were constantly improving on my end, with me dating women who wouldn’t even glance at me 5 years earlier.
So although I think that experience is more common than some people, like Michelle, would believe, I don’t think it speaks much to whether men desire marriage any more or less. Sure, some will be jaded, kinda like Morris, and will resist settling down partially because of it. But others, like me, might be jaded but will still view marriage as a good goal and won’t shy away from the perfect partner, even though it will cut short their time to shine on the dating scene.
Morris
It’s true that one’s thirties and forties can be very good times for dating, We stil look good, we’re financially stable, we’re more confident. However, I would caution that it’s a also a very good time to at least consider something more permanent. Time flies so quickly once we’re in our early forties.
I know there’s a belief that it may be different for men, but I don’t see or hear from lots of men in their fifties saying what a wonderful time they are having casually dating.
Of course we can find love at all ages but if I could have a do over I would think more long term at the age you are now. It may be better to marry before it becomes urgent! Not to say we should rush, that never helps,but it’s good to have intentionaility I think.
Chance @13. There is loads of data that show that men benefit far more from marriage then women so it would not make sense for a man to not get married. Get regular sex, partnership, a maid (since most women end up doing all the work) and reduced expenses. It’s a win for men.
@ Paula, that is total BS.
Women aren’t supporting men, paying alimony, child support, and being incarcerated.
There are about 2 million divorces a year in the USA alone. At least 1.5 million are initiated by the women, so you’re left with 1.5 million men getting obliterated financially and emotionally, annually.
Paula said: (#16)
“There is loads of data that show that men benefit far more from marriage then women so it would not make sense for a man to not get married. Get regular sex, partnership, a maid (since most women end up doing all the work) and reduced expenses.”
If you’re going to say that men get more benefits than women, then you need to look at the benefits that both receive:
Regular sex: Husbands and wives and both receive that benefit equally (unless you’re trying to argue that women don’t see that as a benefit).
Partnership: Husbands and wives both receive that benefit equally.
Reduced expenses: One party will typically benefit more than the other from this arrangement. In my marriage, my wife saw a much greater reduction in expenses than I did. Do you have evidence that shows that men’s reduced expenses exceed women’s reduced expenses on average?
A maid: Based on the studies I’ve seen, women end up doing more work than their husbands, but not all of it. I haven’t seen any study that compares the housework/yardwork men/women did as singles to the work they do as a couple. (As a bachelor, I was able to tolerate a far messier living environment than my wife can.)
Health: On average, marriage increases a man’s health. Women receive only a tiny health benefit.
Parenting: If a person wishes to be a stay-at-home parent, that practically requires someone (typically a spouse) to provide financial support. This is more frequently a goal for women than men. There are certainly exceptions. In either case, the benefit goes to the person who has that goal.
More importantly, marriage isn’t a competition. I didn’t decide to marry my wife because I was going to benefit more than her. (I’m not sure I will.) I decided to marry her because I wanted to, and because it was to my benefit. Unless she also sees a benefit from our marriage, our marriage is unlikely to last.
I think that every state that passes gay marriage and there are lines of couples waiting to get married the next morning proves that marriage endures, it’s still desirable for most Americans.
Marriage may be a win for men in terms of so-called services described in #16 (if you get them), but divorce isn’t. If marriage is merely a business deal it’s far easier and less complicated just to have a regular lover for sex, buddies for partnership, and a maid for housekeeping. I think most men can manage these kinds of relationships. No need for a “full-service” woman.
Of course, some of us don’t see relationships as transactions.
@Brandon B
You’re right, men have known about the risk-reward ratio for some time. However, in the past, they still got married (at a much higher rate). I’m getting my idea from what I witness in life: more men do not want to get married (myself being one of them), especially younger men. That doesn’t mean that most men don’t want to get married, and for the ones that do, more power to them.
@Paula
1.). What are your sources? 2.). All of the benefits that you described can be enjoyed within a loving, committed LTR. You don’t need to be married for that. Also, it’s far from a sure bet that you’ll enjoy those things while being married. In fact, many would argue that those benefits decrease and/or disappear when you get married. 3.). I’ve seen marriages where women did all the work, marriages where men did all the work, and marriages where the man and woman were equal partners. You must be around a lot of really awful men… or you could just be seeing things from only your perspective. 4.). How is having a maid a benefit? I think most men just want a partner. Besides, that would be one hell of an expensive maid.
Yes Karl, women do benefit from marriage but my point is men benefit far more then women so you would have to be stupid to not be married if you were a man. The benefit for women just isn’t much in comparison, although there are some benefits. Mainly financially but that is changing and depends on what kind of job you get. I think the facts seem to be suggestive that men need women far more then women need men, especially since women have been able to work in the world. The old days of needing a man for money are gone (well some women still use or rely on men but I won’t go into that). That’s why the whole dating field has changed. I honestly think women are smarter then men and we are obviously seeing more women move into science and math because culturally this was not something women were encouraged to do. It’s only a matter of time that women start wielding equal power on the political level and having more CEOs.
Chance, google the data. Evan has posted many articles that say the same thing I do, namely that marriage benefits people. Anyways, yes it would probably apply to living common law but in my country you are considered married if you have lived together for 1 year so whether you get a paper or not, you are married in my country if you are living together for more then 1 year. So your distinction is not relevant because most long term relationships are for more then a year and usually involve living together.
As a single woman who wants to get married, I think my life would be better (economically mainly since I have returned to school) and that I would be happier. I know Evan has posted about the same sentiments. I am fairly happy with myself but I think being married with the right man would add to my existing happiness so I am not desperate for a man. I do want a family and that’s not something I want to do on my own. I could but it would be probably very difficult. So women need men in this way because to raise a child on your own in this culture is far too much work. Historically the responsibility has always been shared and I think that makes sense because it takes a lot of energy and resources to raise a child.
@Michelle #12 – When women don’t want to settle it’s ‘more power to you.’ When men don’t want to settle it’s ‘superficial’? It’s not like my stock is going down and I’m refusing to settle… that’s sad and pathetic. My stock seems to be improving and I feel I would regret not finding out exactly how high it can get before I settle down. What’s wrong with that? Plus my relationships have all been good except for one. Matter of fact I’m still friends with the majority of my ex’s. It’s not like I was being an a-hole. It just didn’t work because I haven’t been blown away. And it keeps getting better. With that knowledge why would I settle?
@marymary #15 – I’ll take that to heart. I understand things can’t continuously improve or that I can’t just expect to keep dating the rest of my life. But I’m also the type of person that regrets not trying things. And right now I feel I’d regret not trying to see just how good of a relationship I can find. I fully know I might miss out on something. But with that mentality I would have settled for someone when I was 35. Knowing what I know and have experience now I feel that I’ve dodged a bullet. At 35 I would have settled for a 6.(1-10 with 5 being average) Now I feel like I’m dating 8s. So even if I end up with a 7 I’m better off trying see where things go. And I’m not talking just looks either. They are smart, attractive caring women. They’re just getting smarter, more attractive and caring… and sometimes younger.
@Paula – The benefits thing is so outdated. It’s relative. Since this site is catering to the successful people. Let me tell you. Those ‘benefits’ don’t really apply to men like me.
Sex – Yeah, I have no problem dating and having sex. And I get to have that ‘honeymoon’ phase over and over again. You make it sound like people like me don’t have married male friends. Believe me they live vicariously through me for a reason.
Partnership – In the case of parenting I can understand that. Although see below.
Maid – Believe me it would be cheaper for me to hire a maid. Matter of fact I do. And if I end up adopting I think I might get out ahead. A nanny and a maid would still be cheaper from my point of view.
Reduced expenses – Again. I make good money. Chances are a wife will just mean MORE expenses for me to continue living my current lifestyle.
Paula,
Your ideas are whacked. Men benefit far more than women from marriage?? Where the hell does that even come from??? You also say that you think women are smarter than men?? Biased much???? I would never make such a comment. Different individuals are smarter than other individuals and sometimes they are NOT smarter in every aspect!! You have some pretty whacked out ideas.
@Morris 11
Your sentiments are common and understandable amongst men: you didn’t want me when you were young and hot, so why should I want you now that you’re getting old? Here’s the problem with it, its bogus and disingenuous to act like you would have married at 19, 20, 21 if ONLY you had an attractive girl your age who wanted to. It irks me to no end how men act like they were SERIOUSLY willing and ready to marry young to any one of their young female counterparts, but were having their proposals rejected or their fantasies of being able to propose shot down by disinterest and rejection. Get REAL. If you could have gotten a lot of girls when you were younger, you would have done what men of any age do when they have options, and you would NOT have settled, likely embittering a few nice girls in the process who were looking to you for real love and commitment.
Morris: It isn’t that you started suddenly getting the hot women from your youth as you got older, it’s that the “unattractive” women from your youth got hotter. Hotness is merely about packaging, and it’s very easy to learn how to use packaging to attract a guy. You know what isn’t easy to do? Finish law school and pass the bar. Who wants to deal with some crazy dating thing when you’re working on your smarts? There’s a time for everything, and once all those women earned their bona fides they got a makeover and started dating the guys who wouldn’t have looked twice at them before.
@ Michelle and Paula
Dear ladies, men do not need to be sold on the benefits of marriage. When they meet the right woman (the one they wish to spend their life with AND have kids with) they make sure she will stay.
That is not to say I do not get annoyed by the guys on this blog who brag about hot women flocking around them and how they are constantly upgrading to better versions :-). So, for them it is “I have not found the one and I am loving the search” whereas for the target audience of this blog it seems to be “I have not found the one and I hate the search”.
There is one major unfairness with regards to serial dating – it does not diminish the perceived value of men, but is does diminish the perceived value of women. Women who develop a thick skin to this phenomenon can enjoy long years of upgrades themselves.
With regards to marriage as an institution – I am not sure how young people (20s-30s) look at it. Being 40 – I do not see it as dying at all. A couple of years ago, there was a major wave of separations among my friends (early 40s). Today only one is still divorced, some of the others remarried, some went back to their spouse with whom they had separated, and my best friend remarried her first husband. Obviously, this observation does not cover the world, and statistics may show different… But to my mind, marriage is alive and kicking 🙂
@Paula, knowing fully well of all the marital hazards that goes with being a married woman, i can’t seem to figure out why you would want any part of it. Seriously, why would you want to sign up for an institution that would be of little or no health benefit to you? I can understand if it’s all about the finances.
Morris that is your pattern you like casual sex, causal relationships, and the honeymon period over and over. Those are all superficilal relationships as in they are not getting and deeper and turning into deep emotional connected love, they are based physical superficial lust which cannot last and always fizzles out. Failing to fully emotional connect on a deeper less superficial level where real love develops and gets deeper and deeper and grows and expands and lasts.
Nothing wrong with that if that is what you want and you are happy and are open and honest with the women involved. So they then don’t then not don’t waste waste their time investing in someone who only wants casual short term superfical physical for now relationships or flings. If what they want and are looking for is more thanial superfical suface level physical connection and are wanting a deeper emotionally intimate life partner or marraige and therefor makes you and them not compatible.
As smarter attractive caring and younger are superficial surface level traits that do not tell me anything about who the real person is inside and their values. Those things are not good indicators that this person is a good bet or best person for me to pair bond and have as my life partner and father of my children.
Felt a bit unerved by hearing about adopting a child and just having a nanny and a maid.
Children need more than their physical needs met to thrive.
@Paula #21: The fact that you “honestly think women are smarter than men” should tell everyone here just how much credibility to place in your opinions. But that said, I’ll still address this idea that men would be “stupid” not to get married. It’s already been pointed out that the superficial “benefits” you mention are not tied to marriage…just a committed partnership. Nor are they exclusive benefits to men. But the major disadvantage to men, at least in the USA, is divorce. Divorce law seems to be heavily skewed towards benefiting women, regardless of the circumstances. I know ZERO women who lost anything that they didn’t have going into the marriage in a divorce. I know a dozen or so men who have lost their children, the belongings, and/or large chunks of their income because of divorce. And in some cases, the women were wholly to blame for the separation. Its ridiculous, and a huge downside to marriage for men.
@Michelle #24: “you would have done what men of any age do when they have options, and you would NOT have settled, likely embittering a few nice girls in the process”
You obviously didn’t read my first response here, or a couple of others that speak directly against that. Good men who are ready will commit to the right woman, even in the face of many options. I’m a good example, and I know a number of other men who are as well. I have options, yet choose to commit to one. It sounds like your personal experiences are blinding you to that fact.
Morris #22
<<They are smart, attractive caring women.>>
If that’s so, they are going to figure you out quickly, and move on. Anyone who thinks that they could replace their child’s mother with “a nanny and a maid” because it’s “cheaper”, isn’t to be taken seriously. Good for you, you’ve accomplished your goal of keeping things casual, but trust me, women don’t take you seriously either.
Makes me wonder, at what point does “exploring my options” become commitmentphobia?
As my late mother used to say, “Marriage is beautiful with the right person.” So whether or not I would remarry would depend upon if I found the right person. Married and divorced twice, I am 51 now and feel happy and content living my life as a single person. Who knows what the future holds though.
@Morris #22 your attitude doesn’t surprise me, there are plenty of men out there who feel the same way and they have the right to. I am not interested in settling for just anyone either. I suspect that when you meet the woman who makes you happy, is easy going you won’t long for your single days and will marry her.
What I do find puzzling is that a few men are said they believe marriage to be a drain on their financial resources. I guess I don’t understand why. Most states have no-fault divorce and unless your wife has completely quit her job to raise kids, alimony isn’t really a factor. So I would suggest if you are afraid of this situation that you probably don’t want a woman who needs to be financially dependent on you and look, there are plenty of women out there to compliment your finances. Also if you are afraid of divorcing a woman you probably shouldn’t marry her.
According to a recent NYT article:
Only 6% say they never want to be married. I’d say that marriage is going to survive just fine.
We seem to have 2 Peters. Let me be 61.
@Michelle #24 – Nobody is saying get married at 19-21. Where did you get that? But I WAS a different person in my late twenties and early thirties. And yes I thought I wanted to get married early. That’s what we are conditioned to do. Go to college. Work your way up the latter. Get married. Start a family.
What you aren’t realizing is that since that DIDN’T happen. I’ve experience a lot of life on my own. Traveling, meeting wonderful people are example of good things. Seeing what happens to my male friends after a divorce would be an example of bad things. Maybe even getting set in my ways along the way. So it will take an extraordinary woman to make me want to settle. Impressing young naive me wouldn’t have been that hard. Experienced me ISN’T that easy to impress. You would need to bring a heck of a lot to the table. Still looking for her.
@Sara #25 – Interesting. I agree that it’s the package.
@Rose #28 – I think you read things in what I wrote that are simply not true.(A problem of condensing years of dating in a few paragraphs.) I don’t have casual relationships. I date for a few weeks.(No sex.) Pick a woman I feel the most with. And enter a relationship. I’ve been in maybe 6-7 of these in the last 5 years. And after a period of time. Sometimes 6 months sometimes a year. If I am not feeling that this is the person. I call it off. I don’t want to waste my time or her time. It wouldn’t be fair to either of us. Now maybe that is ‘casual’ sex/dating to some. But it doesn’t feel that way on my end. The reference to ‘honeymoon period over and over’ is that I am stating a fact. Since I am NOT married I have enjoyed the honeymoon phase over and over again. Doesn’t anyone that isn’t married that dates have the same experience? And it was in reference to the bogus claim that married people have more sex.
Since I’ve addressed that. I don’t feel like addressing some of your other comments based on that assumption.
Why can’t a man adopt? If I can’t find THE ONE am I suppose to not have a family? Do you apply this rule to women as well? Because I know women who have babies just because they didn’t meet the right person in time. At least I would be adopting a child that needs a home. And the nanny/maid comes in to play because I can afford one. It allows me to make a decision about starting a family without having to find a woman for the sake of needing someone to help raise a child. Would it be nice? Yes. Do I need one. Nope. I have great family and friends. I think I have more than physical needs covered.
@Ruby #30 – It’s getting tiring replying to women who read what they want. Maybe you are projecting or something. Again. I don’t have casual relationships. I didn’t say I can just replace a mother with a nanny/maid. That was in direct response to someone saying men would save money by having a partner to raise a child. And in my case I’m saying that’s not true. If I adopt it would be cheaper to have a nanny/maid. Why are you getting so defensive with what I feel it true for ME and ME alone? If it doesn’t apply to you ignore it. I’m successful. This site is suppose to be successful woman looking for successful men. From a successful mans point of view. Since my partners income means absolutely NOTHING. I end up dating women who don’t make near as much. As so it would cost me A LOT to continue my lifestyle and pay for her. Get it?
@Julia #32 – I agree. If I meet the right person I won’t long for these days. It’s just I haven’t and along the way I’ve noticed things are improving. That seems to have irked a few women.
I get what you are sating Morris.
Re children. Lile I said Children need more than there physical needs met they need healthy emotional strong bonds and healthy attachments in order to thrive. As do women. This doesn’t appear to have happened with any of the women you have dated. Otherwise you would have bonded and been healthily attached and married by now. And I didn’t hear you saying that family members or friends were going to be helping you What you said was a maid and a nanny. Implying that this would meet a childs needs.
People who want to adopt are screened carefully. They want these children to form healthy, secure loving emotional bonds and attachments. 6 0r 7 realtionships that are only lasting up to a year is not a good indicator that you are able to bond and form a healthy bond or attachement. Would the best enviroment to bring an adopted child into be with a single man who had no history of forming a deep emotionally conected and bonded relationship with? Or with a couple who were married and were in a emotionally bonded attached relationship? Who do you think they would choose?
Having a good job and nice home being able to provide is not enough.
Also most children up for fostering and adpotion come from abusive backgrounds with loads of issues. Not many babies anymore due to abortion.
Is always an option to try and see if you can get through the screening process for adoption though if you want to try..
@Rose #36 – I won’t address your thoughts on my relationships or ability to bond by expanding on it. It’s impossible for you to make that call without truly getting to know me. And even if you did we might not see eye to eye. People are different and perceive relationships differently. Not that you are wrong or that I’m right. People are different and there doesn’t necessary have to be a ‘correct’ way to experience a relationship or bonding.
As for adopting. I’m not there yet and I don’t take it lightly. If I didn’t understand the enormous responsibilities that would come with adopting I would have done it a while ago. But if that time comes I will not be adopting from the US. It’s a sad state of affairs when the hurtles needed to adopt here are ridiculously high. I’ve had friends that have tried and I have no intentions of going through that process.(I’ve read articles on how the system is changing and becoming easier/transparent but I’ll believe that when I start hearing that from people I know.)
I still believe a family is best with both parents in the picture. But as men we have been hearing for years about women not needing men. Well, turns out men don’t really need women as well. It’s bound to ruffle a few feathers hearing that.(Not necessary you.)
EMK33: I wonder how the NY Times explains the US Census figures that say that about 50% of adults are single. Wanting it obviously isn’t the same thing as doing it. Those marriage studies are always so bogus.
Tom T – Why don’t you read the article instead of refuting it because it doesn’t agree with your worldview. 50% of adults ARE single. MOST of them want to get married.
Paula 16
As Karl R says, BOTH men and women get sex, partnership and reduced expenses.
And as for being a maid, I would imagine only if a woman consents to this role. I certainly wouldn’t, nor would I marry someone who expected this of me. A woman is not powerless here. Surely it’s up to her to negotiate household chores with her man if she doesn’t want to do all of them? I would hazard a guess that in most partnerships, both partners contribute in this area. Yes, women may be more likely to do the cooking and laundry and dishes, but I reckon men are more likely to mow the lawn, take out the garbage and set up the technology and appliances.
I don’t know, I don’t see that a man can *force* me to do all the household work. If I really didn’t want to, I would just let it accumulate, and I’m assuming he would eventually make a plan when he ran out of clean socks to wear!
Evan @39
” 50% of adults ARE single. MOST of them want to get married.”
Tom T @38
“Wanting it obviously isn’t the same thing as doing it”
I have to agree with Tom T on this one. Most people want a good physique. But they don’t go to the gym.
Most people want to be healthy. But they eat fast food and follow a low nutritious diet.
Most people want to be self employed millionaires. But they don’t risk their own capital and get educated on providing a product a service that is in demand.
Which begs the question- How badly do people want a good physique, good health, good income, good spouse when they don’t do the things to get them there? The answer is that they really don’t want those things bad enough to do what it takes. But if you ask them in a poll, of course they will say they want to be married because it is politically correct to say so. But their actions do not match up with what they say.
Evan I know you are a devout Democrat and the NY Times is the bible of that political leaning. But sometimes it does pay to question them. Any publication that presents polls is definitely suspect. People say what they think should be said. I bet if you asked anyone over 45 who has never been married if they want to be married and they will say yes. Except they leave out the part that states their spouse must have 245 checklist items in order for them to settle down. But yeah, they want to be married.
Paula said: (#21)
“women do benefit from marriage but my point is men benefit far more then women so you would have to be stupid to not be married if you were a man.”
Men would be stupid not to get married? Really?
Studies show that bad marriages are detrimental to everyone involved. So are divorces. Staying single is better (in terms of health, happiness and financial well-being) than either of those.
Unless you have a reasonably high certainty that you’ll have a long, happy marriage, getting married is the riskier move.
Clare said: (#40)
“And as for being a maid, I would imagine only if a woman consents to this role. I certainly wouldn’t, nor would I marry someone who expected this of me. A woman is not powerless here.”
A lot of times, this is about control instead of power … and the person doing the chore is the one is the one exerting the control.
For example, my wife is very particular about which washing machine settings are used for the laundry. For her clothes, this makes sense. They often have very specific instructions for how to wash/clean them. I don’t buy clothes that are time-consuming to wash. My laundry is easy.
However, my wife is equally particular about which washing machine settings are used even if I’m washing a load of my own clothes. If she sees me start a load of laundry, she has several “corrections” to make so it’s done right.
As a bachelor, I washed my own clothes for 20 years. During that time, I ruined one shirt (shrinking it) during the first 2 years. I have a long track record of doing the laundry without problems. Despite this, her way is right and mine is wrong. That’s about control. (I’m just as opinionated about the dishes as my wife is about the laundry, so this goes both ways.) The easiest way to resolve this without conflict is for her to do all the laundry (and for me to do all the dishes).
Regardless of whether you’re a man or a woman, if you feel your spouse isn’t doing their fair share of the chores, take a look at the dynamic involving that chore. If you criticized the way they did it until they stopped doing it, then that problem stems from your desire to exert control. You can either decide that you’re happy doing that chore, or you can decide to be happy with the way they do it.
Karl R
I agree completely!
I’m not one who believes in moaning that my partner doesn’t do enough of the chores. If it’s something I enjoy doing (like cooking) I’ll offer to do it. If I don’t like the way he does it, I’ll either look the other way or I’ll offer to do it (without criticising or commenting). If it’s something neither of us want to do, we’ll hire a maid every so often. It’s something I used to get very uptight about in my first marriage, but in my current relationship we haven’t had a single argument, or even disagreement about it.
I know how your wife feels about being particular about her laundry, I am too as some of my clothes are expensive! But this is something I see as my “thing” – because I am the one who is particular, I take responsibility for getting it done. 🙂
John said: (#41)
“I bet if you asked anyone over 45 who has never been married if they want to be married and they will say yes.”
If you look at the people 45 and older, 91% are married or were married. Only 9% have never been married.
That’s data from the 2010 U.S. Census. The New York Times poll comes up with a number that’s quite close to the numbers that can be verified. Furthermore, there are still people (not many, but a statistically noticeable number) who are still getting married for the first time over the age of 45.
Even that 50% number is an exaggeration. If you count all adults age 15 and up, 49% of them are single. Talk about skewing the data. Most of the people under the age of 25 aren’t married, and most of them will get married during their lifetime.
Julia @32
“What I do find puzzling is that a few men are said they believe marriage to be a drain on their financial resources. I guess I don’t understand why. Most states have no-fault divorce and unless your wife has completely quit her job to raise kids, alimony isn’t really a factor”
Let me unpuzzle it for you. First of all, no fault divorce is defined as this as per Wikipedia:
Under a no-fault divorce system the dissolution of a marriage does not require an allegation or proof of fault of either party. Since August 2010 (when New York Governor David Patterson signed no-fault into law), all fifty states of the United States have adopted no-fault divorce laws, with grounds for divorce including incompatibility, irreconcilable differences, and irremediable breakdown of the marriage.
It does not mean that someone’s financial assets are safe from being taken away. Alimony is just one example of being a drain on a guys financial resources. The other main drain is retirement and pension money. SO even though alimony may not be awarded, the woman is entitled to be considered for a percentage of the guys 401k and pension. That is up to the judge to determine the percentage if the guy refuses to give it up voluntarily in the case of a contested divorce.
So if a guy has a job where he has a decent amount accumulated in retirement, it can be chopped down on the whim of a judge- even though no alimony is awarded and even though it is considered “no fault”. Hence the reason why marriage can be a major financial drain to a guy if he gets married and divorced, alimony notwithstanding.
@Julia
John is right. Also, you say:
“So I would suggest if you are afraid of this situation that you probably don’t want a woman who needs to be financially dependent on you and look, there are plenty of women out there to compliment your finances.”
You’re correct. However, men who make good income have trouble finding similar women because they are more likely to choose career paths that aren’t as lucrative. Also, even if a man does meet a woman who is financially compatible (for marriage, which = for mixing finances), the odds that she’ll be interested in the long-term aren’t terribly high because many women still expect men to make more than they do. Of course, a woman’s income doesn’t really matter to me when it comes to being in a relationship, but if a woman wanted to get married (mix finances), then it would be an issue because of the risks involved. At the end of the day, being married doesn’t enable me to provide a woman anything that I couldn’t provide within the context of an LTR, and it sure doesn’t get me anything. So, when you combine that with the extraordinary financial exposure in the event of a divorce, more men are avoiding marriage altogether.
…and we haven’t even addressed the issue of not being able to play an equal role in raising your children in the event of a divorce.
@Chance
…and we haven’t even addressed the issue of not being able to play an equal role in raising your children in the event of a divorce.
not sure how old you are. I have friends/acquaintances in their 30s and 40s who are divorced with children. Literally all of them split childcare 50/50, either in the event of 4 nights here and 4 nights there or 2 weeks here and 2 weeks there. Obviously divorce or separation is not optimal but it sounds like you want to have children but feel like marriage gets in the way. What happens when you have an LTR that results in a child then you break up? You still need to figure out custody. Rather than fretting over all the terrible things that could happen if you divorce why not be proactive and discuss very important issues when you are dating? or you can simply relegate yourself to the tiny population of women who are disinterested in marriage.
Either way, if I met a man like you irl I would run. Any man obsessed with divorce seems like a dating hazard to me.
@Julia
God, I shouldn’t have even brought up the last little part about children. I don’t even want children. My mistake, as it obviously distracted from the whole point of the post. Try focusing on the other 95% of my post, as in, the part that actually addressed your comment about being puzzled.
For any women who wants to be marrried with a family,
healthy grown up adult masculine energy men who want a wife and children,who make the best canditates for a marraige partner are happy and want to profess, provide and protect for their wives and children.
If a man isn’t wanting to do that he is not really good marraige material. So would feel best for me to not invest or take them seriously. And leave them to women who were more compatible who wanted casual realtionships, flings, or friends with benefits relationships with emotionally adolencent, or feminine energy men.
Chance & John I have two words for you:
Prenuptial agreement.
Now go sulk back to the MRA subReddit from which you came.
EMK, sorry, buddy, but gotta disagree. I am quite familiar with the studies of marriage and I stand by my statement that most of them are bogus.
Tom T – Your statement that marriage studies are bogus is based on what, exactly? Your opinion. It’s not really debatable that over 90% of people eventually get married, which would indicate that despite all the assertions about the death throes of marriage, in fact, it still seems to be the end goal of just about everybody. This doesn’t change the fact that most people are selfish, myopic, unreasonable, poor communicators and doomed to choose unsuitable partners. It just means that marriage ain’t going anywhere since people want to believe in lasting love. Your feelings towards marriage (or marriage studies), Tom, don’t change the facts.
Karl R, you kind of gloss over the “were married” segment when you cite the 91% figure, which you don’t break out into the implied subcategories. If they “were married” but are no longer they are single, yes? And from your earlier post you state that bad marriages suck and that marriage is a high-risk undertaking. So perhaps you would agree that a lot of people find that marriage does not make them happier, healthier, or wealthier.
If a significant number of people do not find marriage beneficial, and we no longer have any forceful social or economic reason to marry, why is it a surprise that the marriage rate is dropping? I think it’s fairly predictable, especially given that this is what we’ve seen in other developed countries that are a little ahead of the US on the issue, and in even in undeveloped countries that are behind the US. In other words, marriage rates have dropped the world over, and there is not one country where the rate of marriage is on the rise.
What I don’t understand is why anyone who finds marriage such a boon to their existence is threatened by this. If anyone wants to be married he or she is certainly free to pursue that. But this insistence that everyone is doing it, or that everyone wants it, or that it’s so great for everyone is, quite frankly, just wrong.
Some stats about marriage:
More than half of births to American women under 30 occur outside marriage. Nearly two-thirds of children in the United States are born to mothers under 30. Struggling single parents can also have a more difficult time creating a stable home, and a child’s education and emotional health are at greater risk when their world is more volatile. If these kids are struggling in life, that reinforces a cycle of poverty.
73 percent of black children are born outside marriage, compared with 53 percent of Latinos and 29 percent of whites. And educational differences are growing. About 92 percent of college-educated women are married when they give birth, compared with 62 percent of women with some post-secondary schooling and 43 percent of women with a high school diploma or less. However, men with the least education and wealth are the largest group that is being passed over in the marriage market.
Therefore, the economic and social rewards of marriage are increasingly reserved for people with the most education and wealth. As one sociologist said, “Marriage matters more now as the symbol of the good life than as a legal institution.” He added, “I don’t think the battle over same-sex marriage is about rights anymore. It’s about being allowed to have a first-class social status.”
I’ve also read that those who are educated and wealthier tend to have a greater appreciation for the economic benefits of marriage. If your partner’s job isn’t secure, and doesn’t have a retirement plan or health insurance, you might be more reluctant to pool your resources with them, or to see the value in doing so. I think these statistics show that the institution of marriage is indeed changing for the majority of people in this country.
Tom, John, Chance, etc. all want to apply pure logic to the decision to get married. If we got married based purely on logic, then of course nobody would do it. But it’s a heart/emotional decision, no? Your heart must be open to finding a woman you are willing to take the with of marriage with, and if it is not, then of course your point of view will continue to be the only valid one as far as your are concerned. For every study you can point out that says marriage is a dying institution, there are probably two or three studies that say marriage is beneficial to one’s health and well being.
Julia said:
“Chance & John I have two words for you:
Prenuptial agreement.
Now go sulk back to the MRA subReddit from which you came.”
You’re off topic. Again. The debate is about whether or not marriage is a dying institution. I pointed out that there appears to be a growing number of men who no longer see marriage as a viable option, and that it may contribute to the institution’s ultimate demise. I’m not here to seek advice on what I should do in order to become more open to the idea of getting married. I’m here to provide a challenge from a male perspective. Got it?
By the way, I’m not an MRA. I don’t like the term “men’s rights”. They are no better than modern-day feminists. To focus on men’s rights or women’s rights is to only focus on one side of the equation, which impedes progress towards the ultimate goal: true equality.
Evan @ 53 said: “It’s’s not really debatable that over 90% of people eventually get married, which would indicate that despite all the assertions about the death throes of marriage, in fact, it still seems to be the end goal of just about everybody. This doesn’t change the fact that most people are selfish, myopic, unreasonable, poor communicators and doomed to choose unsuitable partners. It just means that marriage ain’t going anywhere since people want to believe in lasting love. Your feelings towards marriage (or marriage studies), Tom, don’t change the facts.”
Don’t be shocked by this Evan — but I totally agree with your comment, particularly the sentence I bolded. It applies to so many issues you discuss, not just marriage. Thank you for finally putting into words what I have been trying to say in my comments to other blog posts…and failing so miserably. The bolded sentence may just become the signature line to all my future blog posts! 🙂
At the moment most peoples choice in partner happens on a subconscious level so I would agree that they are most likely dooming themselves to choose unsuitable partners for a healthy happy loving marraige. They can become more suitable if their inner core values match and they are willing to both do the work on how they relate to each other. If their inner core values do not match then even if they change how they relate they will not ever really be happy together.
Marraige isn’t the problem. And a happy loving marraige and family is still eventually what most people desire. Can most people have that? Yes if they really want to and make a committiment to themselves to do the work to make them able to achieve this
If people become aware of what is going on in their subconscious and start to make better healthier loving conscious choices they can have more loving happier healthier relationships and marraiges with the right person for them.
Fisrt step is becoming aware of what is going on in our subconscious.
Tom T said: (#52)
“But this insistence that everyone is doing it, or that everyone wants it, or that it’s so great for everyone is, quite frankly, just wrong.”
And your evidence is …?
You think the studies are bogus, but we’re supposed to take your word that your statements are correct?
Tom T said: (#52)
“I am quite familiar with the studies of marriage”
“Karl R, you kind of gloss over the ‘were married’ segment when you cite the 91% figure, which you don’t break out into the implied subcategories.”
You’re claim that quite familiar with the studies of marriage. I told you that my data came from the 2010 U.S. Census (from the raw data, not a report).
Why didn’t you look up the data yourself? It’s a free, public access website. You can download it as an Excel spreadsheet, so it’s even convenient to run calculations on it.
I glossed over the data because it’s a few thousand data points. If you want to look at the raw data, I told you where to find it.
Tom T said: (#52)
“If they ‘were married’ but are no longer they are single, yes?”
According to a U.S. Census report, most of the people who divorce get remarried within 5 years. (That’s from a U.S. Census report, and the raw data isn’t granular enough for me to verify that they get remarried in 5 years, but I have seen raw data showing that a large majority get remarried.)
Most people get married. That’s what the 91% shows.
Most people want to get married. Or did you think the 91% are getting married against their will? Even for the people who had a marriage fail, most try again. They still want to be married.
So, in fact, you were wrong when you claimed otherwise. I’m not insisting that it’s true. I’m just telling you what the data shows.
Tom T said: (#52)
“What I don’t understand is why anyone who finds marriage such a boon to their existence is threatened by this.”
I don’t feel threatened by it. Should I allow you to misstate the facts just because I don’t feel threatened?
Who benefits more from marriage?
I think I have been benefitting tremendously from mine.
Now let me tell you, I am not only uncool (in terms of tolerance for my husband’s quirks) but also, I am a maximiser (not a satisfiser). If you ask me, nothing is ever good enough. Me and him are the same age, each of us makes approximately the same income, I am a working mother, I am very busy and constantly tired. On bad days, I wish I had married someone much older with lots of money, so that I could stay at home, look after my kids and the household and enjoy easy living. I have never been in the slightest attracted by rich older men in real life, but hey, why not have a fantasy that things could have been different?
Let me share with you my huge benefits from being married to my husband. These benefits are besides the children, which are the joy and light of my life, but would have been equally amazing even out of wedlock.
1. I have the status of a married woman, i.e. I am normal for my age by society’s standard. My single sister has to constantly put up with all kinds of shit, from friends and strangers alike, because she is 44, single and childless. I would never trade places with her.
2. My husband made me quit smoking and start exercising in order to be married to him. I would have not done it without him as a motivator and example.
My marriage is far from idylic but I honestly, these two benefits to me are worth more than all the money in the world.
And Karl takes the center square for the win.
Kiki #60
I appreciate that those answers are meaningful for you, but really, that’s all you’ve got? I don’t know where you live, but I’m older than your sister, also single and childless, and don’t feel like I have to put up with crap about it. Then again, I live in a major metro area with plenty of single people, so I’m not considered so unusual. Some of the married people I know are barely hanging on to their marriages anyway, and those who are divorced already know that their marriage were troubled enough to end. Why should anyone else care?
It wouldn’t take another person for me to want to give up smoking and start to exercise. I’d just prefer to be healthy. Since I am single and dating, I try to look and feel my best as well, but it wouldn’t take any particular person to motivate me to do that.
Kiki #60,
You mean the most important 2 things about your marriage is that it is a status symbol and that you quit smoking and started excercising???? That’s all you have to say???? If i ever get married to the perfect girl for me, I would hope to be able to say that I get to live everyday and sleep everynight and share everything with a woman who touches my heart and is so thoughtful and so sweet that it is a true joy. I couldn’t give a sh^t about it being a status symbol. Then again I have always been a modest and humble person and can’t stand showoffs.
You sound like you are either not very happy or don’t think much of your marriage or that you are a very cold person. Just for you to make a comment that you sometimes wished you gold dug for an older richer guy says volumes about you.
As a woman who thinks like a man, I can tell you that I wouldn’t want to marry a man whom I would have to support, e.g., makes less than I do. Why not just have that man as my bf? my LTR? or even just as my lover? I want to Keep our finances separate because virtually all the men I”m attracted to make less money than me. *I* would lose out were *I* to remarry.
I don’t want to get married again, unless the man rocks my world in every way…and I’d have to rock his the same way. If I hadn’t already been married? I’d probably be anxious to get married.
However, having been married…I can say with all honesty, all else being equal (chemistry, literacy, character, etc), I’d choose a sexy blue-collar guy for “nothing serious” over an average-looking white-collar man looking for a relationship. This is how a sexually liberated, financially independent woman with options think (me and Michelle, maybe a few others). This is how men who have options think (Morris, Brandon B, Chance).
So I don’t blame men with options for wanting to stay single. I’m happy to be single for the same reason. As a single, attractive woman NOT looking for a relationship, I have more options than men…because I can have sex whenever I want to. Men have to work for that option. lol
I think as women, we minimize our own options when we buy into societal programming that “there’s something wrong with us” and that we couldn’t possibly be happy without a man to call our own if we’re single at 40+. I’m telling all of you that you CAN be happy as long as you don’t tie your self-worth to your relationship/marital status.
@ Ruby # 62:
Maybe it’s something that’s meaningful to Kiki, and unimportant to you. Perhaps you feel that a benefit of marriage is having someone to pick you up from the airport, but maybe Kiki has a hundred friends who would be happy to do that for her and doesn’t care if her husband does it or not. That doesn’t mean that your view that having a husband who can pick you up is not a benefit, it just means you each have other ideas of what a benefit is.
Ruby,
I would like to make sure you do not misunderstand me – I believe these are very significant benefits to me being married vis-a-vis my husband (the women versus men discussion), not married women versus single women.
His presence in my life has helped me for my social status and helped me grow in an area that was important to me. I am sure he also sees benefits in being married to me, but they are probably different than mine. The “who makes more money/saves more expenses” is irrelenat in our case, so it should be something different.
Joe #65
<< Perhaps you feel that a benefit of marriage is having someone to pick you up from the airport,>>
Nope, wouldn’t get married for that reason either. I think I’d need something a bit more meaningful. At this point in my life, though, I’d be happy with a stable LTR or live-in situation, doesn’t have to be marriage.
First, are we only talking about the US, in this blog? The States seems to be far more marriage-minded than pretty much any other 1st-world country. I have friends in Australia, France, Italy who remain resolutely unmarried but plan to be with their partners for life but, to quote Andrew Cherlin, a sociologist at Johns Hopkins University who studies families and public policy, “…in the United States, marriage is how we do stable families.”
Even in countries where marriage rates are very much declining, there will remain traditionalists who will wed. Marriage won’t die, but in some places it’s limping along more than it is thriving.
I advise all friends to get pre-nups as too many men (and, more and more, women – why has no one come up with a clever gender-reversed version of “Cheaper to Keep Her?”) find themselves financially gouged in divorces. However, judges increasingly throw out these documents and there is much that cannot be covered in them – for example, where I live, even if one partner paid for 100% of the family home, its value must be divided evenly in case of a split. So, yeah, I very much agree with the men on this board who argue that marriage presents a significant financial risk to whichever partner has more assets.
@Chance46 You wrote, “Of course, a woman’s income doesn’t really matter to me when it comes to being in a relationship, but if a woman wanted to get married (mix finances), then it would be an issue because of the risks involved.” I wish that men not only believed this but also acted on it; in other words, I wish that being smart enough to make good money and responsible enough to save it counted in “the marriage game” as much as being a size 4 or never contradicting a man (because I definitely lack the second skill set). As a woman who can absolutely pay her own way and then some, I find that what Evan constantly tells us is true: men don’t give a hoot about finding a wife who has money in the bank.
Karmic there are a great many that share your mindset. Its the coarsening of the culture. Just another sign of the times.
@ Ruby #67:
Jeez, don’t you have any concept of what an analogue is?
Heniriette #68
<<s a woman who can absolutely pay her own way and then some, I find that what Evan constantly tells us is true: men don’t give a hoot about finding a wife who has money in the bank. >>
I agree with your post until you get to that sentence. If that were true, then financially solvent, educated men would not be marrying financially solvent, educated women. But all the research I’ve read (see my earlier post), says that these are the very people who are reaping the benefits of a combined income via marriage. As Chance wrote, “…a woman’s income doesn’t really matter to me when it comes to being in a relationship, but if a woman wanted to get married (mix finances), then it would be an issue because of the risks involved.” I’m guessing there is more than one reason that people with similar educational backgrounds and finances are marrying, but it may be that men are sidestepping the financial risk by choosing more equal partners.
@Ruby, “I agree with your post until you get to that sentence. If that were true, then financially solvent, educated men would not be marrying financially solvent, educated women”
Sorry, my friend, but that doesn’t hold up to logical scrutiny. You’re assuming that it’s causality – that financially solvent, educated men are marrying financially solvent educated women BECAUSE of how much money they have. My suggestion is that how much money she has in the bank is not the primary cause of why men fall in love at all. If my wife had $1M in the bank, it would just be a bonus. The fact that she was in debt when I met her – just a minor inconvenience. In general, women value men who are providers, even if they can provide for themselves. Men value women based on how they FEEL around them – the money thing is not a factor for men with their own money. And I assert that it should not be a factor for women with their own money either.
Joe #70
Don’t you have any concept of critique? Or sarcasm?
Henriette said: (#68)
“Marriage won’t die, but in some places it’s limping along more than it is thriving.”
Adjectives like “dying”, “limping along” and “thriving” sound like qualitative descriptors to me. What you (and most of the other people on this thread) are describing is a decrease in the quantity of marriages.
I don’t think the quantity of marriages reflects on the quality. The reason people will continue to get married is because some will continue to find a qualitative benefit to them.
Karl T said: (#63)
“If i ever get married to the perfect girl for me, I would hope to be able to say that I get to live everyday and sleep everynight and share everything with a woman who touches my heart and is so thoughtful and so sweet that it is a true joy. I couldn’t give a sh^t about it being a status symbol.”
You can live every day, sleep every night and share everything with a woman who touches your heart, who is thoughtful, sweet and a true joy … without ever marrying her.
What is the benefit you expect to get from marriage that you won’t get just from permanently living with her as a girlfriend?
Karmic Equation said: (#64)
“As a woman who thinks like a man, I can tell you that I wouldn’t want to marry a man whom I would have to support, e.g., makes less than I do.”
My wife makes less than I do, and I don’t have to support her.
If a person is capable of supporting himself/herself, you shouldn’t have to support them as a spouse (or as a live-in partner).
Henriette said: (#68)
“I wish that being smart enough to make good money and responsible enough to save it counted in ‘the marriage game'”
It does count, but not in the way you wish. It’s not something that will make a man want to marry you. But if you have poor finances, it’s something that may make some men want to avoid marrying you.
Karl R #74,
To answer your question I guess the thing that would make marriage a part of everything I said is the fact that I want children. I see being married and having children- having a family as a big reason to be married- at least for me. Sure you could still do all this without marriage, but for me it is not in my beliefs. I do know a woman who dated a guy for 20 years and had 1 or 2 kids with him (can’t remember which). Neither one wanted to get married. I found that odd, but to each their own. Not my cup of tea. However, she now has met someone after all these years and told me she might be getting married!!! How ironic!!
I will say this, if I didn’t plan on having children then I would consider never getting married. However, you can never say never.
EMK #73
<<You’re assuming that it’s causality — that financially solvent, educated men are marrying financially solvent educated women BECAUSE of how much money they have.>>
I don’t necessarily assume that, but I do think that when it comes to marriage, like tends to attract like. So perhaps partners are being screened very early on, even unconsciously. This doesn’t contradict your assertion that women are drawn to men who can provide for them, even if they don’t need the assistance. It also doesn’t contradict your assertion that men value women who make them feel good. Studies of online dating sites have also shown that, even though people may claim they are open to dating those from different backgrounds, they tend to choose partners with backgrounds that more closely resemble their own.
I think it’s impossible to generalize why men (or women) decide to get married. Sure, men value how they feel about a woman, but for many men, feeling good is not convincing enough. For most men, marriage is the mandatory step to fatherhood and that’s what make them enter a marriage.
Men who do not want children – or who are ambivalent about it – will need other incentives to enter a marriage, and those will depend on their personality and goals:
If he values social status and marriage would be positive for his career, he will marry.
If he value financial security and sees power in teamwork, he will marry.
If he values growing old with someone with whom he can remember the same crazy adventures, he will marry.
And the kind of woman each of these men will choose will depend on their goal. For the man looking for a mother, her finances are no big deal if he earns a decent income. For the man who does not care about fatherhood, finances are going to be more important. Of course the same kind of reasoning would apply to women. Some women will value marriage per se, while others will need more incentives to tie the knot.
My man asked me out because he wanted to f*ck me. He continued dating me because I made him feel good. He married me because he wanted to continue to f*uck me, because he wanted to continue to feel good, and… because I bring SO MUCH MORE to the table than sex and good feelings. For him who is the kind of man who values security, he made me his wife because I am safe at all levels. But a crucial one is my financial responsability.
So saying that men don’t care about their woman’s finances is true for some but wrong as a generalization. If I did not bring a good financial situation and a compatible frugal mindset to the table, my man would not have married me. But he sure would have dated me long term, to continue to f*ck me and to feel good around me.
This has been an interesting discussion with some fine points raised, although I’m not sure how useful dissecting the different statistics on the issue is: one way or another it’s reasonable to conclude that most people still want to get married.
From a purely logical rational level I can see where Tom T, John, Chance, etc. are coming from – I can see how it’s bonkers for a man (with options) to get married. He can get practically all of his needs met whilst not married, along with minimum risk. By getting married he might get one or two more needs met, but takes on enormous risk and responsibility as a price.
Yet most men with options choose to get married so there’s obviously a reason they do. Apart from Karl T’s reason (kids) I think there must be a deeper instinctive compunction for humans to pair-bond in a manner that is officially recognised by their society.
I’ve never understood how logical, intelligent people believe in God, yet the majority of the world’s population purportedly believe in God. I’ve concluded that there is probably an instinctive desire for most humans to believe in something greater, even if it collides with cold logic.
Like this belief in God, I think there will always be an underlying instinctive need for most people to get married and that it will remain a central institution in our society for some time to come.
Personally I’m ambivalent on the issue — I don’t know if I do or don’t want to get married.
Starthrower68 #69
“Karmic there are a great many that share your mindset. It’s the coarsening of the culture”
I disagree. I see it as the improving of the culture — the increasing freedom for individuals to express themselves as they wish. I suppose it just comes down to our different value systems. Who has the better values? I guess time will tell.
Fusee # 78
“If I did not bring a good financial situation and a compatible frugal mindset to the table, my man would not have married me.”
I agree: I think it’s imperative that people choose those with similar financial mindsets. As a fellow frugal type the mindset of spending without thinking of the consequences horrifies me. I went on a date with a girl with this mindset once and I ran as quickly as I could. The only exception would be those who enjoy working in order to spoil their partner I suppose.
Fusee,
I like your analytical style. You break down the decision making process into distinctive parts, kind of like the pieces to a mosaic.
I am like you in many ways, even though I married younger (28) and I am now older than you (40). May be this is the reason I am projecting my own lack of spontaneity to you… Please forgive me in advance if what I say next irritates you – but I think I have to tell you. I am under the impression, from reading older posts from you, that you had marriage as e personal goal, you found someone who meets your expectations for a life-time partner, you presented your best self to him (and made him feel good), and then you started waiting for the proposal to come. You probably also had some sort of conversation in which you let him know what your expectations are. You were ready to leave him if he would not marry you.
From this, I get the impression that you were working hard to be marriagable (I guess this from the active use of “I make him feel good” – like I know exactly what to do to make him feel good and I do it repetitively), and the words “I bring so much more to the table”.
Now that you are married, you probably feel very good about it. I personally was esctatic when I got married, having dated my boyfriend for 5 whole years before that. We were long past the butterflies-in-the stomach phase, we knew each other very well, but equally importantly, I was so relieved that I do not have to go back to the dating pool and start from scratch.
So I wanted to ask you, don’t you think that it should not be so much hard work? And what is the personal prize for you – or to use better words – what is it in being married that brings joy to your soul?
At Tom10, I think we are already seeing the fruits of our values in society. I expect a non- believer to find the cultural condition to be good and right. I also expect a non-believer to find my values and world view archaic, simple minded, foolish, etc. Those us who are believers were warned centuries ago this was coming. Nothing new under the son. But I digress as this is not the forum for that discussion.
Hi Kiki #79,
I would not say that I had marriage as a personal goal, but as a goal if I were to enter a loving relationship with a man. Basically, I had two possible goals: living a happy single life or living a happy married life. After years of undefined LTRs, I was done with the hello-goodbyes every few years, so that was out of the questions and made sure to not go there anymore.
Since I did not know where life would take me, I worked on my two possible goals simultaneously. I obviously worked a bit harder on the single life goal since I consider it the default one: no one is entitled to a relationship, and most women end up single in old age anyway.
You’re somewhat right that I “worked” at being marriageable, but more in the sense of becoming a good wife rather than at just trying to get a proposal. Marriage is not the end, it’s the beginning, right? It’s a licence, not a degree. The reason why I had to work both at being good a the single life and at becoming a good wife was simply because I sucked at both. I had always been in a relationship before I took a well-deserved and necessary break, and I was always unhappy. I had to develop my inner happiness and learn how to cultivate it, and I had to develop relatiosnhip skills such as understanding what compatibility is and what healthy communication entails, and I had to define my goals and boundaries and learn how to explain and enforce them. So sadly, yes I had to do some work! I know people who are “naturals”: people who end up effortlessly in a happy and healthy relationship. I was not one of those : ) But now that the work has been done, it’s become totally natural. I’m a born-again natural. Ah!
The reason why I wanted to make a life-commitment IF I were to meet the right partner was because although I was certain of being able to continue being happy as a single woman, I really prefer living my life with a teammate. The idea of “being in it together” appeals to me: with the right partner, joys are multiplied while sorrows are divided, health improve, wealth increase, goals are reached faster, etc. The key is to be compatible and willing to make the small sacrifices required to enjoy the benefits.
As I wrote @9, my reasons to desire marriage versus a DIY life commitment are very specific to my and my husband’s situation, and would have been different in a few years and in a different country. I also remain prepared to go back to the single life if needed. It will very likely happen since women tend to outlive their husbands, but in the meantime anything can happen, really.
Now, to answer your question: what brings me joy in being married to my amazing husband is not the marriage certificate, it’s our deep love, our wonderful relationship, and our solid commitment. We are not trying anymore. We are not assessing each other anymore. We are family. We are going to enjoy the good stuff together and deal with any crap that comes our way together as well. And it brings me so much joy to make him feel good, to see him happy because of a small thing I did for him. It’s priceless!
@ Fussee #81
The reason why I wanted to make a life-commitment IF I were to meet the right partner was because although I was certain of being able to continue being happy as a single woman, I really prefer living my life with a teammate. The idea of “being in it together” appeals to me: with the right partner, joys are multiplied while sorrows are divided, health improve, wealth increase, goals are reached faster, etc. The key is to be compatible and willing to make the small sacrifices required to enjoy the benefits.
This is why I want to get married!
@ Julia and Fusee
“The reason why I wanted to make a life-commitment IF I were to meet the right partner was because although I was certain of being able to continue being happy as a single woman, I really prefer living my life with a teammate.”
You do not need to be married for that, and getting married offers no additional assurance of living your life with a teammate that you love/loves you.
“The idea of “being in it together” appeals to me: with the right partner, joys are multiplied while sorrows are divided..”
While you may very well be right that joys are multiplied and sorrows are divided with the right partner, that is entirely independent of marriage.
“…health improve(s)…”
Do you have evidence of this? Also, please don’t cite those poorly-conducted studies that show that married people live longer than single people because they erroneously assume that correlation equates to causation (i.e., getting married causes people to live longer). Is there something about signing a piece of paper that automatically improves your vitals and possibly even adds years to your life?
“…wealth increase(s)…”
I can only assume that you’re married to/planning to marry a man who makes as least as much or more than you because your wealth/standard of living will certainly not increase if you marry someone who makes materially less than you.
“…goals are reached faster, etc.”
That depends on your goals and who you marry. If your goal is to increase your wealth by marrying someone who makes more than you, then yes, you need to be married for that. Anything else can be accomplished independent of marriage.
Chance @ #83: “You do not need to be married for that, and getting married offers no additional assurance of living your life with a teammate that you love/loves you. ”
You may not need the things you described in the quote above, and that’s fine for you. Others may need them, and that’s fine for them. What assurances a person may need in a relationship varies from person to person, and relationship to relationship.
@Chance
Why the eff do you care if people want to get married? WE GET IT you loathe marriage, most people don’t. Get over it.
@Chance #83:
I totally agree with you that marriage is not necessary to benefit from all the items that I listed! A DIY life commitment would be just the same. However, who chooses a DIY commitment rather than a marriage? Gays who can’t yet get legally married in their state, some people who are into alternative lifestyles, and… my mom! She and her partner “married” privately without any legal papers, because marriage would be detrimental to them in their specific situation. They would have to write a ton of other legal documents to undo what the marriage certificate would impose to them. Not too useful!
The reasons why *I* personally chose marriage are explained @9. Let’s repeat that if I were in a different age range and living in a different country, I would probably make a different choice, depending on my partner’s preferences of course. But I would still request a declaration of life commitment in front of our loved ones, after having carefully assessed our compatibility and ability to carry on the responsabilities of a life-long relationship.
@KarlR re “Adjectives like “dying”, “limping along” and “thriving” sound like qualitative descriptors to me. What you (and most of the other people on this thread) are describing is a decrease in the quantity of marriages.”
——
Yeah, I can see how you might have misunderstood my words as descriptive of the quality of individual marriages but if that’s what I meant, I would have written, “Marriages are limping/dying/thriving.” Instead, I was using the same language used by EMK in his initial question: Is Marriage Dying?
Fusee,
It was fascinating to see that you have a lyrical side besides the analytical side.
I believe it is the romantic expectation that life could be better as a couple, together with the pride we take in proclaiming ourselves to be “the chosen one” for each other that makes us want to get married.
After that, life happens, and some expectations are met, while others are not. When I was reading your decription of how you worked to become a better [future] wife I remember the changes that I had to cultivate in myself in order to be more compatible to my husband. Probably he did the same thing, the fact is, I am much more aware of the effort I made, and his efforts I probably underestimate. I wish you the best of luck, and to keep the high level of enthusiams you have for each other forever!
@Kiki #88: Thank you and good luck to you too! I find really valuable to read comments and advice from people who have been married for a long time, because this is from you guys’ experience that I can continue to learn about what works and what does not work on the journey of building and nurturing a solid, healthy, and happy marriage. For me it’s not so much about trying to keep a high level of enthusiasm at any price (I think it’s impossible), but about accepting the natural ups and downs of the relationship, and becoming skilled at reviving it after a down. I’m on the market for that kind of advice : )
Karl 59: Here is the data, people can decide for themselves.
1) 96.6 million: Number of unmarried Americans 18 and older in 2009. This group comprised 43 percent of all U.S. residents 18 and older.
2) 53%: Percentage of unmarried Americans 18 and older who were women.
3) 61%: Percentage of unmarried Americans 18 and older who had never been married. Another 24 percent were divorced, and 15 percent were widowed.
4) 16.2 million: Number of unmarried Americans 65 and older. These older Americans comprised 17 percent of all unmarried and single people 18 and older.
5) 88: Number of unmarried men 18 and older for every 100 unmarried women in the United States.
6) 52.5 million: Number of households maintained by unmarried men or women. These households comprised 45 percent of households nationwide.
7) 31.7 million: Number of people who lived alone. They comprised 27 percent of all households, up from 17 percent in 1970.
Source for statements in this section: America’s Families and Living Arrangements: 2009 <http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/hh-fam/cps2009.html> Tables A1 and A2
And while we’re talking about what’s going on in other developed nations, here’s a look at the UK Census from 2011, where married households turn up in the minority for the first time:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/dec/11/census-2011-marriage-single-adults
And the same US Census data from 2011, with direct links to each stat, if you want to get more “granular” and check out the excel spreadsheet. You can see how the number of singles grew both in absolute and relative terms in just two years:
1) 102 million: Number of unmarried people in America 18 and older in 2011. This group comprised 44.1 percent of all U.S. residents 18 and older. Source: America’s Families and Living Arrangements: 2011
<http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/hh-fam/cps2011.html> Table A1.
2) 53%: Percentage of unmarried U.S. residents 18 and older who were women in 2011; 47 percent were men. Source: America’s Families and Living Arrangements: 2011
<http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/hh-fam/cps2011.html> Table A1.
3) 62%: Percentage of unmarried U.S. residents 18 and older in 2011 who had never been married. Another 24 percent were divorced, and 14 percent were widowed. Source: America’s Families and Living Arrangements: 2011
<http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/hh-fam/cps2011.html> Table A1
4) 17 million: Number of unmarried U.S. residents 65 and older in 2011. These seniors comprised 16 percent of all unmarried people 18 and older. Source: America’s Families and Living Arrangements: 2011
<http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/hh-fam/cps2011.html> Table A1
5) 89: Number of unmarried men 18 and older for every 100 unmarried women in the United States in 2011. Source: America’s Families and Living Arrangements: 2011
<http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/hh-fam/cps2011.html> Table A1
6) 55 million: Number of households maintained by unmarried men and women in 2011. These households comprised 46 percent of households nationwide. Source: America’s Families and Living Arrangements: 2011
<http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/hh-fam/cps2011.html> Table A2
7) 33 million: Number of people who lived alone in 2011. They comprised 28 percent of all households, up from 17 percent in 1970.
Source: America’s Families and Living Arrangements: 2011
<http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/hh-fam/cps2011.html> Table H1 and HH-4
Fusee,
to my mind the downs are less scary than the routine, but you are still too newly wed for that. Orherwise, for the downs – i have two recipes:
– the best way to win a battle is not to enter it. Avoid conflict as much as possible
– say sorry even if you are not. It means that you value the relationship more than the particular discussion
By the way I find these to be useful guidance in all my relationships not just with my husband.
For a person like you who extends a lot of energy to make the other feel good the risk is in getting depleted. I wished you enthusiasm because you need to be somehow inspired to contnue this for the long haul. I do find pleasure in making the other person feel good too, it is a very rewarding experience but gets tiring…
Kiki 91 “Avoid conflict as much as possible”
Hi Kiki, if by that you mean to pick your “battles” carefully, then I tend to agree. Let go of the small stuff. However, when you agree to spend a lifetime with another person conflict is inevitable. Learning how to manage the conflicts in a civil manner is key, not avoidance. My ex is a passive-aggressive conflict avoider, NOT GOOD. Things were fine for the first 10-12 years, than I found out that he was angry with me about all sorts of things, and he never gave me a chance to address them, because he “didn’t want to deal with it”. The last guy I dated showed signs of being the same (failed to tell me he was a pot smoker because I let him know up front that was a deal breaker, so rather than deal with the fact that there was a conflict, he chose to withhold the info) I ran for the hills after that. It was more about his avoidant style than the fact that he occasionally got high at that point.
@Sparkiling. You are so right about passive aggressive avoidance. Harmony is impossible in such situations. Bringing the truth to light is always better. I am so relieved to have found a woman who expresses herself directly.
——————————————————————————————
On the main theme, it is useful to note that marriage has always been going out of fashion. Here is Hamlet, in a mood of deep depression, telling Ophelia, also depressed (& arguably schizophrenic) that marriage is a doomed business. If she marries virtuously, she’ll reproduce more failures like Hamlet (from earlier in the scene). Anyway, wise men (wise in the opinion of the deeply depressed Hamlet) know that through marriage women will turn men into monsters. Better to stay unmarried. So, men avoiding marriage is not exactly news. Ophelia, for those who don’t know Hamlet, commits suicide after this (self harm amongst adolescent girls/young women isn’t new either). Despite talking about suicide himself, Hamlet dies in a fight. A nunnery could mean a brothel as much as a convent. A nun is a single woman neither in her parent’s household nor working as a servant. The double entendre is just another torture of Ophelia by Hamlet. On the whole, avoid deeply depressed members of the opposite sex for dating. Don’t worry about the men who reject marriage. They’ve always been there.
If thou dost marry, I’ll give thee this plague forthy dowry: be thou as chaste as ice, as pure assnow, thou shalt not escape calumny. Get thee to anunnery, go: farewell. Or, if thou wilt needsmarry, marry a fool; for wise men know well enoughwhat monsters you make of them. To a nunnery, go,and quickly too. Farewell.
EMK 53: You’re kidding, right? This lame NYT op-ed piece is the “research” that you’re hanging your hat on?
(EMK – Yes, with a reminder that just because it’s an op-ed piece doesn’t mean that the facts are her opinions. Feel free to click on the links in the article for access to the studies. Just seems like you don’t like the facts, Tom.)
EMK comment in 94: Seems you don’t like the facts. First fact is that the op-ed was written by a man, as was the Gallup article that he links to. I have no problem with the Gallup data, I just find the guy’s opinion of the Gallup data not too compelling and I don’t care about it. Second fact, if you click through to that Gallup article, you will read these two statements, which exactly sum up the view that I have been expressing throughout this thread but that you and Karl seem to have a great deal of trouble accepting, along with the data (i.e., facts) that I offer in post 90. The two Gallup statements are (itals and boldface mine):
1)Attitudes about marriage are important in the context of a declining marriage rate in the U.S. The Census Bureau reports that the rate of marriage is down, from 9.9 marriages per 1,000 Americans in 1987 to 6.8 in 2011. In addition, researchers at the University of Maryland found that the marriage rate per 1,000 unmarried women fell from 90 in 1950, at the height of the baby boom, to just 31 in 2011.
2) Although most Americans are married or would like to get married, less than two-thirds consider it very or somewhat important for a couple to marry if the two want to spend the rest of their lives together or when they want to have a child together. This is down from 2006, the last time Gallup asked about the importance of marriage in this way.
That most people get married, or want to get married, or get remarried after divorce, does not change the fact that the number of people who are single through choice (either through not marrying to begin with or through divorce), and the number of adult years that most people spend single, and the number of households headed up by single people are all rising dramatically. The rise in these stats reflects a deep change in attitudes toward marriage. Attitudes are chaning not just in the US and Europe, but even in developing countries; for instance, the UN and NGOs are looking to declare child marriages a human rights violation. A century ago the idea of a global initiative like this was unimaginable. It is only imaginable today because of the radical shift in ideas about marriage in developing countries. (In a rebuttal to Karl’s earlier point: The reason the Census collects marriage data on people 15 and up is because in some states it is legal for people to get married as young as 15 with parental consent. But you notice that in their summary of the data trends they do not include these child marriages.)
Tom, that really doesn’t change anything for me. The fact that some people are choosing to be single is healthy. Many people aren’t suitable partners – especially ones who don’t believe in marriage. Still, no matter how you slice it, the vast majority of people still believe in love and marriage – which is why over 90% of people eventually marry. You can cite every stat about unmarried households and it doesn’t change my one important fact.
Oh, and if you don’t believe in lasting love and marriage, that’s fine by me, but I’m not quite sure why you’re hanging out here. Just sayin’.
Tom T, so far as I know, US social security systems are as anti marriage as those in the UK. At the point of decision, the poor lose out from marrying. (Yes, married people aren’t so poor but is that cause or correlation?). So conditions in 2011 are not those in 1987 far less 1950. You would need to restrict your observations to people who do not expect to need social security (Evan’s clients) to begin to make valid comparisons.
After 45 years, my fellow pupils who married at 16 (the girls) or 18/19 (the boys) have not appeared to make worse choices on the whole than those who married strangers later. When you have been in the same community since birth, you tend to know a lot about people. I wish I had had the option at the time. Big cities are terrible places to evaluate people.
@Sparkling Emerald 91.
Thanks for sharing your opinion, your comment is very wise, as always. I have a difference in opinion, but it comes from my particular situation and the type of pesonalities that we (I and he) have. He is the exact opposite of passive agressive – he has a very easy time telling people what he wants and how they need to live their life. He tells his mother how to cook, his father how to garden, and his boss how to run the company. He is well meaning, and extremely annoying. Over the years, I have learned to smile and disregard this, and do my own thing. You could say I am the passive agressive one :-).
I have been reading Evan’s advice and this blog for a while and I really enjoy it. I have been able to apply some of the things I read here in my own marriage, but most of all – I am quite relieved now about one of my own insecurities.
Before coming here I had this illusion that relationships and marriage have to happen/function well spontaneously. Or, more precisely, that they happen spontaneously to other people, whereas I am always thinking – how to do this, how to do that, let me try another way to get my husband to come around to what I want him to do, no, this is not working, let me try something else… I used to see myself as unspontaneous/borderline manipulative.
Now I see that many many people think very carefully and analitically about the state of their relationship, and the ones who do, are also doing reasonably well.
Karl 59: That rosy 91% figure for remarriages that you cite speaks as much to people’s delusion as it does to their desire to be married. Also acc. to the Census, 75% of second marriages end in divorce, and a whopping 90% of third marriages. So the high rate of remarriage actually contributes to the high rate of divorce in the US, not a high rate of happy marriages. This is hardly a ringing endorsement for the institution. The opposite, I would say, given the destructive impact of divorce.
I don’t know the number of people who get married once, to each other, and stay married to each other for life, but it could not possibly be the majority of people. Most couples experience divorce either directly or by association (they get divorced or one/both are divorced), which is the tantamount to saying that most marriages are a terminal arrangement. Which also means that a lot of people spend a great deal of their adult lives being single. For most women, the majority of their lives will be spent single. I presume that both you and EMK have spent the greater part of your adult lives single, rather than married. This may also be true for your wives. Did your life suddenly become meaningful, healthier, wealthier and you suddenly became more generous, kinder, sensitive when you married? Or did you just rise up a notch because now you fit into some social order that you believe everyone envies?
@Tom “Did your life suddenly become meaningful, healthier, wealthier and you suddenly became more generous, kinder, sensitive when you married? Or did you just rise up a notch because now you fit into some social order that you believe everyone envies?”
Actually, the former.
The debate here seems to be what makes marriage “dead” or “alive”. Those in the “marriage is alive” camp point to the # of people who have been married at some point in their lives, and the “marriage is dead” camp point to the high # of divorces.
And the stats don’t even tell the whole story. According to any statistics I would register as “married”, since we still have not filed the divorce papers, and I know many couples who have lived in marital limbo as we have. (One of my friends was separated for SEVEN YEARS, no papers filed, before finally divorcing) I guess marriages such as ours technically aren’t dead, but they are certainly in a coma.
I agree that the DESIRE for marriage is alive and well. But LIFE-LONG marriage ? Whole ‘nother topic. I wanted NOTHING MORE, than a reasonably happy & content life-long marriage, and my upcoming divorce is the worst thing that has ever happened to me. As much as I desired marriage and loathe this divorce, (and the miserable last half of the marriage) it is doubtful that I will ever re-marry; as much as I would love to be happily married, I am not willing to risk becoming once again sadly divorced.
@Tom T
I believe MOST never-been-married women want to get married. I would hazard a guess that a MAJORITY (probably not “most”) never-been-married men want to get married.
Being able to STAY married is another conversation altogether.
I know lots of folks who want to be married whom I think would make lousy marriage partners; and others who don’t ever want to marry, but would be great marriage partners.
For all your antipathy towards marriage, you might be one of those great marriage partners should you ever decide to marry. While others who are actively looking to get married may well end up divorced sooner rather later should they succeed in getting married at all.
The DESIRE to get married (which I think is in MOST people) doesn’t equate to their ABILITY to stay married.
I’ve gotten lost in the debate…
Are you saying most people DON’T WANT to get married…or are you saying most people can’t STAY married?
I’d disagree with you on the former and agree with you on the latter. They’re separate issues.
@Sparkling Emerald #100 and Karmic Equation #102: I was wondering when someone would point out that people on this thread are talking about two very different sets of data. Thank you for pointing out that dreams of marriage or even getting married is one thing, while the longevity/success rate of marriage is another.
Polls show that people still desire to be married, and clear data indeed indicates that most people end up at some point or another in possession of a marriage certificate. Another set of data shows that the number of unmarried people is increasing, which indicate that marriages’ longevity is decreasing. So everyone is right here. People dream, people marry, and then people divorce and get married again. Lather, wash, rince, repeat.
Instead of trying to convince one another that what we believe is right (which is pointless since everyone is right), it would be more productive to reassure people who do not want to be married that it’s perfectly okay to NOT get married, while encouraging the ones who want to get married to develop the qualities that would help them get there AND stay there once they have signed their legal documents.
Basically, how about we focus on making marriages stronger?
A long time ago on another thread, I touched on the changes in marriage that triggered the rise in prosperity in Western Europe, especially around the North Sea that created the modern age. Until the 18th Century, the proportions of never married women in Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam were 1,2 and 4 % (Ottomans) respectively. Girls were married young 13, 15 & 17 to much older, prosperous, men often related, in polygamous marriages. etc etc. The EMP (European Marriage Pattern) was triggered by the Catholic Church forbidding cousin marriages and requiring consent from those marrying, at least among the lower classes. This had all sorts of consquences such as greater autonomy and higher wages for women. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajnal_line for an introduction but there is much better material if you look. It should be required reading for those interested in female equality and interaction with marriage. (This one is long but much better http://www.iisg.nl/hpw/papers/demoor-vanzanden.pdf ). It was strongest in England and The Netherlands and is credited with the economic rise of Europe. It took final form after the Black Death and lasted until the First World War. Couples married late. Women from 21 to 25, men from 25 to 30. Age difference was larger in times of stress, narrower in times of plenty. A large portion of the population never married and the women observably remained chaste (extremely low illegitimacy rates compared to Southern and Eastern Europe). In England, the figure reached 25%. In Sweden it reached 28%. So, by no means everyone married. Eastern Europeans married younger and had different social structures. The US is mostly EMP but diluted by immigration from Ireland, Eastern and Southern Europe.
After the First World War, in affected countires, brides became younger in order to try and secure a husband from the reduced pool of men (and the nuptuality rate actually went up contrary to perceptions at the time). After the second World War in Anglo Saxon countries brides became even younger and the nuptuality rate peaked. This pattern held in Europe until the 1960’s. From the mid 1960’s across Western Europe, starting in Scandinavia, nuptuality declined from around 90% to 80% to be replaced by cohabitation. Age at marriage rose to medieval levels, now exceeding 30 in Sweden. However, long term cohabitation still begins around 25. (So maybe Evan has a point despite my defence of the Celtic Marriage Pattern). Since the mid 1980’s the erosion of marriage has halted and there is a slight revival, particularly in the post Protestant cultures (there are those who argue atheism is a Protestant sect).
As observed in the discussion above. Lifetime nuptuality for women in the USA reaches 91%. The US has still not fully shifted to the new European pattern (which is described as the Second Demographic Transition – SDT). Mixed ethnicity, religion and economics all slow down the US change but it is happening. Nuptuality will decline to about 80% but life will not be celibate for about half the never married. Meanwhile, Russia is currently heading for a 1950’s pattern of early marriage, housewife, 3/4 children 1950’s pattern. I’ve never seen so many prams on sale.
KE and Fusee: I am not pro- or anti-marriage. The question was, Is marriage dying or being reborn? There is absolutely no question that rates of marriage are dropping the world over. For some reason this seems to bother a lot of people. I personally do not care, but I’m not going say that marriage is thriving when clearly it isn’t.
I do happen to enoy being single. I cannot imagine that I would be happier being married. I imagine that if I get married I’ll simply remain as happy as I am. But some people are not very good at being single and don’t know how to be happy that way. So they should get married and stay married perhaps, if they need to be married to be happy. I don’t think most people are like this, however. I think if you’re unhappy marriage is not going to change that.
That said, I believe that in general there should be greater acceptance of all lifestyle choices, and I do wish that married people were as generous toward me as I am toward them in acknowledging that any life style choice can be good for the one doing the choosing, that each person has to decide for him/herself given the broad range of opportunities and desires we’re all face with. You do have to wonder what’s really going on when people make these messianic claims about marriage, though, especially in light of all the data that shows that as currently practiced it doesn’t work for many people. This evangelical element among married people is downright peculiar, if you ask me. If something is so obviously good and beneficial people don’t need government incentives or social pressute to do it. And conversely, if it’s so exalted a state of being then people wouldn’t dump it so often.
Tom, your post deserves further scrutiny:
You say you are neither pro nor anti-marriage. Your posts would indicate otherwise, but I’ll take it on faith that you’re telling the truth. Guess what? I’m neither pro nor anti-marriage, either. If you’re happy being for the rest of your life, it’s no skin off my back. Really. This is one of those things that single activists feel very strongly about – that married people like me are messianic to people like you. Not true. We’re too busy with our own families to give a shit about your relationships. We just hope you’re happy, that’s all.
I’m not bothered that you are working hard to illustrate that marriage is dying. But it seems to me that thou dost protest too much. For someone without a horse in the, race, you’ve gone a pretty long way to convince me that your horse is winning. Ultimately, I think we can both agree on a few things:
a) Marriage is not dying as an institution – far too many people willingly choose to do it to talk about its death. Listen, I’m an atheist and while atheism is making great strides, organized religion is certainly not “dying”. Got it?
b) Just because people get married doesn’t mean they SHOULD get married. Most people mistake chemistry for compatibility and are unable to choose good partners. That’s not the fault of “marriage”; that’s just PEOPLE.
c) Neither of us advocate people getting married for the sake of it, or because of what society thinks. I think marriage is probably the best environment in which to raise a child, but if that’s not on your agenda, you can do whatever you want. Unless, of course, your girlfriend wants to be married and you refuse, in which case, you’ll lose your girlfriend.
In short, I COMPLETELY accept your lifestyle and have never once argued that marriage works for all people. I have argued – and will continue to argue – with the facts on my side – that it doesn’t MATTER if marriage WORKS. People OVERWHELMINGLY want to be married. Whether YOU do or not is irrelevant to the discussion.
Finally, I will remind you that you’re on a blog for people who want to better understand relationship dynamics that lead to marriages. So it’s not like I came into your house and told you to get married. You came into MY house and told me you didn’t believe in my relationship with my wife. I’m no messiah for marriage, but I’m VERY happily married and I’m exporting that to the millions of people who want the life that I have – not the one that you have. Nothing personal. Ya dig?
Perhaps it depends on what your the definition of “dying” is. If someone’s idea of marriage dying is that less people (albeit just slightly less) are interested in marriage, then one could make the argument that it is dying. If one’s idea of marriage being a dying institution means that marriage as we know it has taken a significant beating (i.e., there has been a major sea-change in people’s attitudes towards marriage that have, as a result, significantly altered Americans’ desire to marry), then marriage most definitely is not dying.
I think people pointing to the high divorce rate as “proof” that marriage has gone out of fashion is rather silly. That’s like pointing to the high obesity rates and saying that being slim is going out of style. Most people want to be slim, or at least of average build. The weight loss, & fitness center businesses are booming. The fact that people very often gain back the weight they once lost, isn’t proof that they never wanted to be slim. Any more than divorce is proof that the couple never wanted to be married. It’s just proof that getting slim and STAYING slim is a challenge. As is staying married for the long haul. And there is a fat acceptance movement, but over all, most people want a slim or average build body. I accept people at all weights, and since I spent most of my childhood being teased for being too skinny, and now struggle to remain average, I understand that it is not always due to lack of “will power” but many other factors come into play. So while obesity may be on the rise, it’s not because people are consiously choosing it, it is because they are struggling with it. (I don’t think it’s a complete lack of will power, genetically modified foods, an over abundance of cheap crap food, having to work longer hours to make ends meet leaving less time for physical activities, etc) all are contributing to this obesity epidemic.
I also accept people at all relationship phases of their lives. I have gay friends, never married friends, still married to their high school sweet-heart friends, multiple divorced friends, married but child free by choice friends. I don’t judge them for their life style. Even the ones who are unhappy (example, some of my never married gfs, are sad about this) The only judgement that comes from me, is my GF’s who claim to want to be in a real relationship, then accept crap treatment from men who won’t commit. And usually I just ask a few questions, rather than downright judge them, questions such as, “I recall you telling me you were tired of sex without commitment, what made you change your mind ?”. Rather than me telling them what to do, I just remind them of what they really want, and how what they are doing isn’t in align with their stated relationship goals.
Tom T
I think if you feel preached at and uncomfortable around married people, you might want to look at why. If you feel happy and secure in your current situation and decision to be single, there is nothing they can do to make you feel bad about it.
I am unmarried with no children and I personally just don’t feel that way around married people. I love my life and I only hope that other people can be as happy in theirs as I am in mine. If someone were to try and suggest that another lifestyle choice would be better for me, I would laugh and forget about it the very next second.
Clare: Your tone is a little preachy there. So should I feel preached at or no?
Article from HuffPo three weeks ago says that a new study shows that marriage rate is at historic low for the last century:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/22/marriage-rate_n_3625222.html
But more people are living together. Maybe I’ll shoot for that. 🙂
Gosh Tom, do you feel preached at by everyone? 😉
Seems we’re all in agreement here that while people are rushing to get married, we’re divorcing at ever greater rates. Karmic Equation was right in 102: getting married and staying married are two completely different things.
So I have to wonder, what is the point of asking the question “Is marriage dying or just being reborn?” If you define marriage as “thriving” just because people want to rush into it, that doesn’t mean that overall, society is better or happier. In fact, it could be worse; bad marriages and divorces are terribly painful processes for all involved. Therefore it isn’t necessarily a good thing in itself that marriage is staying alive, whatever that means.
Fusee was right in 103 that what’s more important is how to make marriages stronger. That means entering marital relationships with your eyes open, and once you’re in a healthy marriage, working to keep it that way through a number of kindnesses and an attitude toward commitment. Living with another person for a long time is never easy. I think too many people rush into marriage looking at only the short term and not realizing that no matter how great a partner is, living with another is always a challenge. Hence the need for an attitude toward commitment.
Hello! I’ve been a reader (on and off) for quite a few years… since my divorce in 2009, actually. Well, I’ve never been a poster but for some reason, I’m compelled to say something about this.
To start, I’m 32-years-old, atheist, college graduate (I have a Master’s), and I’m also a person who’s marriage neutral. The thing about me is I’m more on the traditional feminine personality spectrum… I’m not aggressive, and not even assertive, and although I’m somewhat smart enough to have finished a thesis in my early 20s, I’m not ambitious nor career driven. I wished I put a ton of effort into “work” to make a “name” for myself, but that’s never been who I am.
Anyway, I was married to my college sweetheart is pretty much my male counterpart. We met when we were both 18 through a student social network. I had a cartoon picture as my profile and he had an empty profile. We chatted for a few weeks and then exchanged pictures and met after class for coffee. Who would have known that the stars from the heavens above have exploded and we both felt like we found each after seeking for the love that we wanted all along… from a silly school website.
I had met a self-professed hermit who’s mother was quite shocked that her son suddenly went out all the time with some girl he said is named Katie. A week after we had met, he said he wanted to marry me the moment he laid eyes on me. I thought that was sweet but didn’t take it seriously. We actually did get married when we were 23.
We were together until we were 27 and separated, and by 28, we were divorced. We didn’t have children, but we talked about and had similar mentalities about children and family life…however, the breakdown of my marriage, is rather puzzling to me even many years after the fact. We got along great, and we made decent money together, we had a little apartment and our expenses were low. I use to think that there was something totally wrong about me and needed to find out why loving marriage dissipated. I tried to put myself out in the “dating world” and found that my sensibilities aren’t suited for the so very harsh and emotionally damaging “hookup” mentality/culture, which really disheartened me. I was shocked to meet so many bitter who only wanted to have “FWB” and I was so bewildered and withdrew from the “singles scene” because it seemed like it’s the place for people who want to be single and stay single. I’ve never been a like that, and find it distasteful for people to treat sex as casual as discarding trash.
I was in limbo for a few years because I couldn’t really put myself out there to date, but I couldn’t really move pass my divorce. At the end of it, around the time I turned 31, I acquiesced I should be grateful for having a really good relationship while it lasted, and although I’ve been lonely, I’ve learned to stand on my own and appreciate my freedoms (and the heavy responsibilities that goes with that).
I’ve come to realize that life is meant to be lived, and too much analysis takes away the mystery and adventure, and greatest pleasures there is to be had. Sometimes things happen pretty fast, and sometimes things happen painfully slow, but I think, marriage, just like anything else in life, eventually happens to most of us. I don’t know that means marriage is on the decline or upswing, I could care less, really. All I know is, bottom-line, I have one life to live, and I’m going to strive seek out my own happiness with myself.
I guess to say is, marriage and relationships are so very personal and individual that there’s really no point in debating over numerical statistics of why something is or isn’t. I’ve racked my brain and emotional depth to find a rational answer to my divorce and I couldn’t. Humans aren’t machines and we aren’t a formula to be sorted out and branded, nor can we be truly stratified, despite so many labels that we encounter in our everyday lives. Although there’s quantifiably a lot of us, it doesn’t mean we’re going to be programmed the same and seek out the same things at the same time. My mother told me, “No matter how screwed the life is on the societal scale, somehow life goes on and things work out. And if things didn’t work work out, life would have ceased eons ago.”
I’d like to think my 56-year-old mother knows what she’s talking about. So, regardless of what everyone else is doing, whether marriage a trend or not, what’s important is to decide for yourself, and not get so wrapped up defending your stance. Seriously, why do you need to explain your life choices? Are you trying to change society by touting your way is better or are you disappointed that society thinks poorly of you because your decisions do not reflect what is deemed acceptable? I suppose external validation goes a long way…