How Fast Should Men Go Sexually?

Men look for sex and find love. If we can agree on that, why is it so surprising to some women when men try to kiss (and more) on the first date? In this episode, I’m going to give you the lowdown on what men are really thinking and the definitive sexual pace you should move at if you want to keep your spark and get a boyfriend.


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Comments:

  1. 1
    Wendyshoefitz

    I have been agonizing about this topic for years – so this is extremely helpful.  Thank you!

  2. 2
    toddinhb

    Hi, Evan. Really enjoyed this podcast, and let me second your comments on giving a good BJ. I haven’t had many 🙁 but I definitely remember the good ones fondly. Not a deal-breaker, but a big check in the plus column.

  3. 3
    Katrina

    Ok – great conversation. A bit confusing tho. Evan can clarify- are you saying that a woman should find alternate ways to get a guy off?  (which to me IS sex). Otherwise – there is little gratification in the “bases”. In fact going there with no intention to proceed is often more frustrating than just kissing. What am I missing here?

    1. 3.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      On behalf of all men, good blow job skills will buy you a full month until you figure out if he’s boyfriend-worthy. If you don’t do that, don’t be too surprised that men choose not to stick around for a month to discover how delightful you are. You may choose not to do this – it’s not within your boundaries – and that’s fine. But remember, dating is a Venn Diagram. BOTH parties need to feel content with the progress. And if you think most confident, experienced men will be content with making out for 7 dates or whatever, I predict you’ll struggle to get to date 7.

      1. 3.1.1
        Katrina

        I think 7 dates with no sex  is pushing it, but to me a blowjob is equally as intimate as intercourse and in some ways more. I cannot imagine for two seconds giving every “maybe possible” boyfriend a blowjob! How about he courts her, provides evidence that  his intention is not just getting off – after all – you said yourself – men will have sex with anyone, and have even looser morals around who they accept a bj from! How do you know if a guy even likes you??? Ev – you’ve gone to far with the bj free for all!

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          Fine. Do it your way. Stay on second base with a grown-up man for a month. See how well it works. I offered a compromise that I feel most men will be on board with. If you offer a compromise that he is NOT on board with – because it reminds him too much of 8th grade – that’s going to impact things, too. You may want courtship; he wants sexual satisfaction of some sort. He’s not “wrong” for feeling this way. Nor are you “wrong” for rejecting my solution. You will self-select from men who are content with above the waist fondling for a month after spending X hours and dollars on you. That’s a smaller pool than you might think.

        2. Adreana

          Stay on second base with a grown-up man for a month.

          Oh, boy! If I need to give a man a bj the first month or so to keep him then I’d rather stay single…it’s just feels so off and unsafe for me .I’m fairly young so you could say I had mixed experiences with the men my age…some left when I told them I wanted to wait and others stuck around.

          I’m glad you’re blunt about it though, Evan…it just gives me that extra push to find my man while he ( and I) are still young.At the end of the day, impressing other people at my own expense isn’t an option for me .)

        3. Evan Marc Katz

          “Impressing other people at my own expense” isn’t an option for me.” Imagine a man said that about paying for your first few dates. I have a funny feeling he might struggle if he didn’t care what the women he met thought.

        4. Adreana

          Except paying for a date isn’t the same as sharing your body with someone.

        5. Evan Marc Katz

          Both are forms of giving and making your partner feel good.

          What do you do to make your date feel attractive and desired?

        6. Adreana

          Sexiness isn’t just about what a woman does in the bedroom but it’s about what she exudes out of it. I have my ways of making a man feel desired and melt when he’s with all while taking things slow 😉 If he cannot wait, then he’s free to go and find that woman who will satisfy him….

          That said, sucking on a guys’ lollipop is more intimate and personal to me than sex, and it’s reserved for a committed relationship with a special man.  It takes a great amount of vulnerability and surrender for a woman, and that takes time and a very trustworthy partner. Heck, even some hookers abstain from giving a bj because it’s far too intimate for them…

          I am curious however, if a woman pays for her own dates… do you still think she should give him head as a reward? And if the man paid for the date and she gives him a bj, should she expect him to return the favor,  or is that unnecessary since he already did his part earlier and it would be “unequal”now? 🙂

           

      2. 3.1.2
        OMG

        There’s another word for women who blow men they’re not interested in to keep them around and shelling out money.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          We’re talkkng about men they are interested in, so your meanspirited metaphor falls short.

      3. 3.1.3
        Thea

        Evan, I’m digging where you’re coming from, though I live in NY and as you probably know NY dating/hooking up scene is very active. I am looking for a serious relationship and am well aware I need to kiss a few frogs before meeting a prince. I wouldn’t mind checking out the level of chemistry I have with a potential partner and giving a blow job to someone I already feel I have established a good connection with, does make some sense. And it’s very hot, by the way. But here’s the catch, assuming my partner is sexually active and we are not yet at a point where it makes sense yet to negotiate exclusivity, than giving this guy a blow job would expose me to pretty much all range of STD’s there are. And as anyone should probably know, some of the STD’s can’t always be seen or active at certain times. How do I navigate these murky and dangerous waters? You make a point out of not making sexual boundaries an elaborate negociation and I agree. Yet, how to I tell someone I barely know and with whom I am supposed to let things flow, that I need him to wear a condom in order to get a BJ and also to be very specific that his semen can not be anywhere near mouth and all sort of other very specific details that are involved in keeping a sexual encounter safe? I would really appreciate your perspective here, because safe sex is a biggie, especially when you’re out there dating and trying to figure out how to keep a good guy interested, yet not at the expense of personal safety and peace of mind.

        P.S. On a funny side note, you make the point a BJ is not sex. Well, that’s what Bill Clinton though too, remember “I did not have sex with that woman”. As we all know, the prosecutor made it clear for all of us in America, a BJ is SEX. By the decision of Court none the less 😉

    2. 3.2
      Amy

      …”after spending X amount of dollars on you.”

      That’s just damn creepy. And why I pay for every other date or split the bill, buy rounds of drinks, what have you.

      If a guy would think he had sexual privilege because he spent money on me or would try to get in my pants that way that would be SUPER rapey. And it’s not on me if he feels that way or tries anything but I can at least assert my power and know that I don’t “owe” a guy anything physically because he threw his cash around (or in NZ, his EFTPOS card LOL).

      Maybe that exchange is more common in the US but where I live in NZ is very egalitarian and guys generally wouldn’t expect to pay for you except maybe the first date, if you got on well. On a first date the other night I bought one out of three rounds because after he paid for the first two I would have felt weird allowing him to buy the third. And I did like him and want to see him again.

      Of course giving a BJ lets you suss out the equipment and if it’s really small you can always just chuck him before you have intercourse and have to pretend you like it (I should have done that with my last BF!)

       

      1. 3.2.1
        Sylvana

        LOL! Most awesome comment ever! suss out the equipment… awesome.

  4. 4
    Rachel

    Another great application of your fundamental premise that healthy relationships start with empathy and a willingness to understand another person’s wants and needs. I am a little confused, though, by this buying time with BJs business. It’s 2016 and we have this contraception thing pretty well figured out, so the idea that a blow job is a precursor to (and also a stall tactic to delay) sex is really strange. Who would blow a guy she wasn’t willing to sleep with? In what way is a woman protecting herself by putting off sex but still giving head? Sorry–I know this is not really the point of this episode, but adding yet another arbitrary step in the sexual hierarchy amounts to implementing more rules and more structure (and more unilateral gratification) to a process that really ought to unfold organically, to the mutual benefit and enjoyment of both parties, with the help of honest communication. If you’re going to get naked and roll around and exchange fluids with the fellow, you might as well just sleep with him and enjoy yourself instead of getting him off so you don’t lose him.

    1. 4.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Most women count their partners and are looking for ways to forestall intercourse without getting too attached. I offered one way. If you can have sex with him without commitment and not care if he ever calls you again, that’s your prerogative. Go on with your bad self.

      1. 4.1.1
        Adenine

        I’m with Rachel on this:  “Who would blow a guy she wasn’t willing to sleep with?” = exactly! In my dating practice, I assume that if I don’t have sexual/romantic feelings after six weeks, it’s time to cut the guy loose and focus on another guy – I’ve heard people say it should be more like two dates (opposite extremes). I also feel like if i’m not sleeping with him, he should be finding sexual gratification elsewhere because at this stage of dating, there has been no exclusivity agreement. Evan, I do things a little differently. I pay for my own dates. I love your whole perspective, generally speaking, but it seems like here you are directly equating the money exchange for sex, but once removed – ie, the tab. That’s kindof like prostitution and objectification, and I have had some bad relationships with men who can’t respect women because of their societal roles in these terms. I feel like women shouldn’t be looking for a “financial provider.”  We should be focused on our own careers, our own identities and our own financial security. When it comes to having babies, both parents are on the hook equally to balance parentage, social life, self-identity and career… I love your podcasts and blogs, though. I am a huge fan. Keep up the good work!!

        1. P is for _

          Adenine: “I pay for my own dates”

          I also pay for my own dates.

          Btw, what about some hand jobs? I feel like that would come before a bj in the whole progression of things. Or am I missing something?

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          Men can do their own hand-jobs better than you can, and thus, they are a rarely preferred method of climax from a date. Sorry to be the guy who speaks the ugly truth for what (many) men think, but if I’m not going to do it in this safe space for women, where else are you gonna hear it?

      2. 4.1.2
        Rachel

        Oh, Evan. So quick to bust out the snark. I’m not commenting to impugn your proposed compromise. I’m just pointing out that the hard line you see between oral sex and intercourse isn’t there for everyone. For many women, blow jobs are extremely intimate–even moreso than regular sex. If I go out on several dates with a guy and we hit it off, cultivate some affection, have sex in a way that we can both enjoy, and he doesn’t call me again, I’m going to be hurt and disappointed. But if I go down on him to make sure he gets his because I feel that it’s the price of admission to the next date and I don’t hear from him again, I’m really going to feel like a ho. Being dumped immediately after one-way sex horrifically amplifies the feeling of being used and discarded, which is probably the reason that so many women bristle at the idea that oral is a low-risk, casual enterprise–a great strategy for keeping him on the hook while keeping your heart safe. No. Just, no. I enjoy your work, I love your writing style, and I agree with >95% of what you say here, but can’t cotton to this thing. I get that going without sex in the first month or two of a burgeoning relationship sucks–and I have been the one waiting for a guy to be ready–but getting through that waiting period makes it that much sweeter when everyone is comfortable and totally on board with getting busy. When you wait until you really want it and then you get it, it’s like whoa.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          As long as you’re content doing things your way – and it’s working well for you – feel free to ignore anything I write.

        2. Diane

          I agree. with Rachel. If I have sex with a guy and he fades at least I’ve been honest with myself and done it for the right reasons. Because I’m attracted to him, because I want to have sex with him. Not because I feel pressured that he’ll think I’m fridgid if I don’t. Not because I think he spent a lot on dinner but because I desire him and I want to enjoy the experience with him. I don’t want to feel that I’ve given him pleasure and then he left it should be a mutual enjoyable experience. yes they are no guarantees, either one can leave at any time. So sex shouldn’t be a bargaining chip and I would feel worse if I gave him a blow job and got nothing in return. If we both had the full experience and it ends, well it was a two way thing and I wasn’t servicing him. I feel he would look down on me that I was putting him on a pedestal and not think I was worthy of having a full experience too. Or on the other hand he might feel that I was just doing it because I didn’t want him to get into my pants which I should imagine from a guys point of view could well be degrading too

      3. 4.1.3
        sophia

        And that is a very viable option for many women.

        Have any others to offer?

      4. 4.1.4
        Diane

        Men look for sex and find love…… Hmm most men have sex with numerous women whilst they are single and they don’t fall in love with them all – just saying

    2. 4.2
      Stacy2

      Who would blow a guy she wasn’t willing to sleep with?

      Agree completely.

      1. 4.2.1
        Not Jerry

        No one who is sane.
        I completely agree. Gee whiz.

        1. Lilyp

          Let’s not even bring up that unless you’re willing to blow him with a condom on, it’s not safe sex. Duh!!

    3. 4.3
      Jess

      “Who would blow a guy she wasn’t willing to sleep with?”

      Hahaha I agree 100%. I have a rule with BJs – I don’t swallow. And I tell guys that straight up so they know. Which basically means, I’m going to sleep with them afterwards. For me, it is a precursor to sex.

      I’m a little more open about sex – I can take the emotion out of it now. Whilst I HAVE slept with guys on the first date (one I ended up dating for 2 months, the other never heard from again hahaha) I would usually wait until maybe the 3rd date. Unfortunately, some guys still disappear whether you give them sex or not. The most recent one was unsure if he wanted to be in a relationship and that would’ve been why he stopped messaging etc which is fine – I can’t blame him for that. I wish I had known about Evan yeeaaaars ago!!!!

  5. 5
    D_M

    Evan,

    I commend you for trying to tackle a difficult issue like courting intimacy, but it’s very nuanced. You mentioned that for most women, it’s about comfort. Wouldn’t arbitrarily moving their intimacy line inherently make them feel uncomfortable? It seems like that would be counterintuitive to your other points abount intimacy being fun and organic. I believe that a lack of comfort, leads to mediocrity, which I wouldn’t wish on anyone. I have no idea how women make the transition, but I assume it’s some biological organic feeling that allows them to lower their guards. I think on some level, our gut just takes over. Call it  intuition or our respective subconscious, but without that feeling of ease, it just seems like a bad idea to round any bases.

    1. 5.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      I repeat: don’t round any bases. Let me know how that goes for you.

      You very much want men to compromise and do things they don’t want: call on the phone, plan in advance, pick up the check, stop wanting to move forward sexually. So how are you going to compromise? How are you going to give? How are you going to demonstrate your interest in him. A: your sparkling personality may not be seen as “giving” enough over the course of 4-6 weeks.

      Rounding the bases is the most effective compromise where he can get some gratification (so can you) and you can buy time to see if he is worthy of boyfriend status. This world where men are content with a month of kissing has a small male population.

      1. 5.1.1
        LilyP

        May I suggest jerking him off instead of a BJ if he can’t just wait? Much less uncomfortable for us women that don’t think putting a dick in our mouth on a first date is no big deal. Which is probably all of us. What do you think about that Evan?

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          No one said first date, LilyP. We talked about delaying intercourse until you have a boyfriend – and doing this by gradually moving around the bases – including having platonic dates to get to know him better outside the bedroom. So no one is advocating first date BJs. I’m advocating taking his progression and gratification into consideration, not just your own personal needs to kiss a guy who will then decide he wants to be your boyfriend after just kissing.

        2. Lilyp

          Evan, you’re failing to acknowledge how often sex and intimacy are intertwined for women — and that includes a BJ for men who didn’t get that memo– and it’s the whole reason we’re waiting in the first place.

          Oh that’s right! And also because those same guys won’t hesitate to slut shame us or get all neurotic about whether our partner count is too high for their liking. Are you telling me men don’t mind a woman with a high BJ count? You’re not thinking how many other men she has done this with after only a week?

          Im with Adreana. If I have to blow a guy to keep him around for a couple of weeks, I’d rather move on.

          please do not mistake this for dislike of blow jobs. Many of us — me included — LOVE giving them in a mutually giving and satisfying relationship.

      2. 5.1.2
        Rebecca

        I’m just piling on here, but

        I totally agree with Rachel that I wouldn’t blow a guy I wasn’t willing to have sex with (since oral sex is sex in my book)

        I totally agree with D_M that arbitrarily moving my intimacy line would make me feel really really uncomfortable

        And, honestly, I’d be worried if I started a sexual relationship with weeks of fellatio it would then be really hard to reset the sexual relationship later to operate as if sex should be good for me, too.

        I’m not saying any man is wrong to want sex before I’m ready to go there with him, I’m just saying I’m not ready. My prudishness hasn’t cost me a date yet, so I’m going to keep on refusing to share my body with any man until I actually _want_ to.

        I don’t think I’m failing to empathize with men’s wishes – I often bristle at the CEO metaphor on these boards because it seems too disinterested in the guy’s needs – but there sure as heck aren’t any CEO’s giving blow jobs as part of their hiring process.

        And my last, pointless, comment: it may not be pheromones, but if bleach smelled as good as my boyfriend’s body, I’d have little bowls of bleach filled with scent sticks all over my house.

      3. 5.1.3
        Evelyn

        I don’t want him to call me or pay or plan in advance if he doesn’t want to.  I want him to ENJOY doing those things willingly, otherwise forget it.  He will resent it. That’s not the kind of man I want-the kind who will expect sex early or feel he’s “earned” it.  I really wish you hadn’t brought up the money thing.  That makes it really seedy, and yes, one step from prostitution.  Oral sex is much more intimate than intercourse, and there is the risk of STD.  Experts always recommend using a condom.  What guy is going to be on board with that?  A man cannot understand what it’s like for a woman to do that.  At least with intercourse, I might get some enjoyment, too.

    2. 5.2
      Adreana

      Are you telling me men don’t mind a woman with a high BJ count?

      I would like to know the answer to this as well. The way I see it, if you blow a guy too soon just to keep him then you’re acting out of a very disempowered, insecure place. Right then and there he knows he has you where he wants, and he’ll start throwing hoops to see how far you’re willing to jump. You’re really not separating yourself from the other women he’s dating or doing anything special ( as you can bet they’re doing the same).

      Look at George Clooney for example. He had hundreds of women throwing themselves at him ( including gorgeous actresses and models) doing whatever they can to lock him down…and who does he fall in love with ? The woman who turned him down 3 times before agreeing to go out with him. No doubt she wasn’t too quick to hop in bed with him either. Now if a former player and a powerful celebrity at that is willing to wait, then why on earth would an average man be any different? lol

      If he lets her go just because she didn’t give him bj the first month, she must not have been his “dream woman” anyway.

       

       

       

      1. 5.2.1
        Stacy2

        You’re really not separating yourself from the other women he’s dating or doing anything special

        This ^^ I think is exactly the point.

        Personally I have no desire to be one of the women who blows this guy. First, it would really make me feel like a ho. Second, I present myself differently. I aim to set myself above the fray and set myself apart from the rest of his harem, as a woman of a higher caliber. He should think of me as a special prize he may get, which is worth pursuing. And getting a BJ from me would be an even more special experience – eventually. If he is hooked and is really into me – he’ll stay. If not – I am ok with him leaving. As they say, men are like trains – there will always be next.

        1. Jenn

          I heartily agree, Stacy2. I have always found that the longer a woman holds out, the crazier a man gets about her. They love the challenge no matter what they might say. So what if there are men who would drop out after the first mile? I’m looking for a guy who’s got his eye on the prize (me) and wants to finish the marathon!

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          That flips over when you say you’re holding out for marriage, Jenn. Most guys can run a sexless mile, but don’t really want a sexless marathon.

        3. Jenn

          Thanks for your input, Evan. As I’ve said before though, I don’t want most men. There can only be one winner in this race, don’t you agree? So why should those of us who hold that sex is more important than just “scratching an itch” compromise on our convictions? I’m asking that as a sincere question, I really want to know your take on it.

          What do you think that people like me should do?

          I know there aren’t a lot of guys who would see things my way. As you’ve said yourself in a post before, the traditional men I’m looking for “may fill a classroom but they won’t fill a stadium”. But why do I need to be concerned about that when it only takes one?

        4. Karmic Equation

          Hi Jenn,

          So are you currently in a committed relationship that is heading toward marriage?

          If you’re not, how long have you been dating the way you’ve been dating with the criteria you’ve been dating with?

          It’s true that you only need one. Let’s say there are 2000 men in the USA who will meet your criteria. How many of that 2000 men live a reasonable distance from you? What if those 2000 men are dispersed throughout the globe. How will you meet “The One”? Travel to every country?

          Yes, you only need one. But finding 1 in 2000, given global distances, is a whole lot different than finding 1 in 2,000,000. It’s pretty good bet that a good selection of 2,000,000 may be within a reasonable distance from where you reside. However, that would not be the case of 1 in 2000.

          It’s a numbers game, for (generic) you to find “The One”, you need a large selection to choose from.

        5. Jenn

          Hi Karmic,

          I understand what you’re saying. But that’s where my faith comes in. 😇😊 I will do the best I can with the tools God has provided me. Online dating, Meetups, the occasional conference or singles event, classes, etc. The rest is up to Him.

          I’ll admit I’m not currently dating anyone. I took myself out of the game, though I shouldn’t have. It’s just been a rough year, which I won’t go into, but I’m trying to psych myself up to start again.

          I haven’t been actively dating, like, ever. Except for about a year or so ago, when I spent maybe about a year and a half on online dating sites. It’s only too easy to not meet anyone when you don’t want to. Like I said, it’s been a rough year and I’m in no shape, physically or otherwise, to look for love actively. But I’m working on getting back out there, as I said.

          I think I went on dates with about 20-30 guys in that year and a half when I was dating. Most of them asked for second and third dates, and one did get to a fourth date with me before I nexted him. Usually, the chemistry just wasn’t there, or I got the feeling they weren’t that into me so I let them drop.

          I told one guy I really liked that I was a virgin. He seemed taken aback but was otherwise okay with it, at least at first. I didn’t get the chance to tell him I’m waiting until marriage because his interest waned after that. There were other mistakes I made with him too though, so I’m not sorry he faded on me. We weren’t right for each other anyway – aside from the chemistry, we had nothing in common and we grasped at straws for things to talk about.

          I do know now that the right time to talk about sex is when the guy brings it up. I blurted it out to this guy because I was gaga for him and I was worried about what he might think. I was insecure but I realize now that I have no real reason to be. There are men out there who wait for marriage willingly. I have read their stories and I know that if God has someone for me, I will meet him eventually. Not my will, but His be done (not that I don’t get antsy while I’m waiting, mind you).

          Like I said, to me sex is far more than just scratching an itch. If any guy I date can’t sacrifice a short time of waiting with me (when we’ll have a lifetime together to share a marital bed), he’s probably not the one I should be with anyway.

      2. 5.2.2
        Evan Marc Katz

        “No doubt she wasn’t too quick to hop in bed with him either.”

        You have literally NO IDEA if this is true.

        1. Adreana

          No I don’t. But it takes a very , and I mean very  confident woman to reject a man with all that status. If she has the “audacity” to do so, then more than likely she isn’t the type to do things she’s not ready for.

          I tell ya…this woman is my spirit animal! 🙂

           

           

           

           

        2. Diane

          So are you wanting us to believe that old adage of Bill Clinton’s that giving BJs isn’t really having sex? LOL

        3. Not Jerry

          Haha. Diane, you had to bring that up!

      3. 5.2.3
        Stacy

        Agreed on all points Adrian.

  6. 6
    Stacy2

    I have always assumed that men enjoy BJs more than regular sex and as a result considered it a “treat” when a guy has been particularly good, not a main course to dish out on a regular basis. I probably wouldn’t go there before regular sex… That is a rather uncomfortable idea.

    1. 6.1
      Lilyp

      I think it’s a “treat” because most men know that most women don’t just give out blow jobs casually. It’s because she really wants to blow you. But Stacy I don’t like the implication that it’s a reward.

    2. 6.2
      Diane

      I consider a BJ  to be a part of the whole sex act. Not a treat to be handed out for good behaviour

      1. 6.2.1
        Lynda

        Good answer. Good approach.

  7. 7
    SMC

    I can’t WAIT to watch this podcast because the comments are already very intriguing.  As for blow jobs, I am a HUGE fan.  First husband was sexually selfish (I never had a single orgasm in the 12 years we were married, and twice-weekly sex was always precluded with “Get a towel.”) and he expected blow jobs, and I hated doing it because he was big and he took forever to “finish,” by which time my jaws felt numb and I was beyond bored and frustrated.  Had a boyfriend post-divorce (17 years older) who showed me the nuances of doing it right (I was still pretty sexually naive). A couple of years later had a different boyfriend (13 years older) who at first had performance issues, so when he asked for one, I said sure, “Do you mind if I swallow?”  I swear I heard him fall in love right then and there.  And that was the moment when I discovered how powerful a blow job can be for a woman who knows how to give one.  I wouldn’t dream of giving one to someone for whom I’m not prepared to have sex, but you bet I’ll give one to someone about whom I’m getting serious.  It’s a bonus for him, and it makes ME feel good to give him that bonus, after which he would conquer the world for me.  Win/win in my book.

    1. 7.1
      ScottH

      You are a wise and pecious woman!

      1. 7.1.1
        ScottH

        precious

        1. SMC

          LOL, ScottH, I’ll take “pecious!”  🙂

  8. 8
    Stacy

    Well, I am of the camp that agrees that actual penetration is different from a BJ because one can probably bond a woman and the other will probably not. HOWEVER, it’s still a form of very, very, intimate sex and personally, if I am ‘blowing’ you, it’s because I am most likely willing to have penetrative sex with you (like now). I mean, who has that kind of sex control? It’s too risky to even go there if you’re not willing to go all the way (although theoretically I can see Evan’s point that it will buy you some time if you have the self control of Jesus himself). However, why would you want to ‘buy time’ if you’re willing to blow the guy?

    Personally, I think the best bet is to progress and make out like crazy (eventually) through enough dates to the point where you are confident (well, we’re neve 100% confident but hey, you gotta take a risk with that also) enough that the man has known enough of you as a person to not just want sex. If a man is genuinely enjoying you as a person, he should be able to last a couple of months without full penetrable sex if you are rounding some bases.  Personally, I feel that if he doesn’t stick around, he wasn’t that into you to begin with.

  9. 9
    C

    Evan,

    I find your blog very insightful, however I couldn’t disagree more with your opinion on this subject matter. So much that I felt compelled to leave a post for the fist time. Maybe it’s my Midwestern values (not religion based as I am an atheist) that contrast with your experience in LA, however I tend to think it’s just a basic level of self-respect.  In my experience you do not have to perform oral sex within the FIRST month (if sex is absence) for any man worthwhile.  Further it’s my experience that men respect women more who take things slower (to an extent). Those are the women they take home to meet their mothers. Oral sex is just as intimate if not more. Ditto Katrina, Andreana, Rachel, Adenine, Stacy, Stacy2, and D_M thoughts.

     

    -C

     

    1. 9.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Again, you are all entitled to your thoughts and feelings. My job is not to tell you what you feel, but rather educate you about what men (overall) think about sex. And if things aren’t progressing at a certain pace, men tend to be dissatisfied. My solution, rounding the bases, which I’ve talked about for years and mention in Why He Disappeared and Love U) has worked wonders for the women who choose to employ it. I don’t have a 3 date rule, a 5 date rule, a 1 month rule for having sex. I tell women the truth – men want sex before love – it’s in your best interest to give him some sort of sample of what’s to follow to keep him engaged.

      I can’t tell you how many women have told themselves this story: “I told him I only kiss and then I never heard from him again. That must mean he’s a bad guy who is just out to get laid.”

      Not true. He’s just a guy – like most of us – who are driven by testosterone and don’t need to have feelings to hook up. We will figure out later if we like you. First, we want to have sex. It’s YOUR job to a) slow him down and see if he’s a genuine guy who is worthy of your commitment and b) make it FUN for him to slow down instead of lecturing him about what an ogre he is for reaching for your belt buckle. My solution is something that can (theoretically) and has (in practice) please both women and men because it takes BOTH of their needs into account. She’s not having intercourse with a total stranger and hoping he calls. And he doesn’t feel like he’s 14 again where all of his action revolves around kissing on a couch.

      Your proposed solution is essentially all about what YOU want – disregarding the fact that men have needs and desires as well. And if you’ve learned anything here, failure to account for your man’s equally valid feelings is a recipe for friction and eventual breakups. Keep setting your rules in your head; watch as most guys who don’t play by that rulebook find somewhere else to go.

      And no, the exceptions don’t disprove the rule. I have a born-again client who has a boyfriend who also thinks that kissing for a year is cool. Let’s just say that they’re in the minority. Stop making men wrong for wanting to go fast. You want him to respect you and slow down. He wants you to care about his needs and speed up. Find a point on the graph where you BOTH feel good, not just YOU.

      1. 9.1.1
        Sabrina

        Evan I agree with you in this one completely.  In fact, I agree with you on all your advice.

  10. 10
    John

    If you thought men and women are the same sexually, the comments on this thread may change your mind.

    If your principle is no sex before exclusivity, then BJs are out. A BJ is sex. A man is putting his member in the women’s mouth, which to me is sex. Maybe Bill Clinton’s affair with Monica changed people’s minds into thinking a BJ isn’t sex. I would guess a woman would have to trust you and be comfortable to let you penetrate her in any way. I’m a guy and suffering from blue balls is painful. With that said, if I meet a quality woman and she isn’t ready, I’ve got to take care of myself. I agree with Evan though that many guys won’t hang around. Easy sex is available everywhere. I disagree though that smart, successful guys won’t give you some time to build trust. I’m one of those guys and if a woman said she is not ready yet, I respect that.

    1. 10.1
      Stacy2

      Easy sex is available everywhere

      Correct, which is another reason to not be a provider of said “easy sex”. In my experience, a guy may have a rotation of women who he calls/texts when he wants to get laid, but he will pursue the one that does not put out over those other women when he is really interested. So its not like he is not having sex at all for a month. Nobody expects “exclusive dating”, i don’t think.

      1. 10.1.1
        Adreana

        This is spot on!

        More than likely, he’s dating and sleeping with other women in the dating phase.

      2. 10.1.2
        Cara

        I agree with you Stacy2. If a guy won’t hang around for my “sparkling personality” then why on earth would I give him a BJ? In my experience, which at 47 is a good bit, it’s the guys that you don’t have to put out for that are worth keeping.

        If he wants easy, I’m soooo not it! To show him otherwise in the first month would be false advertising.

        1. theta

          I am also 47 and do concur.. Std’s are highest amongst our age group; in no way am I getting physical until trust and relationship potential are established.  Any pressure = bye bye!!

      3. 10.1.3
        Evelyn

        And she can do the same, to have her needs met.  The easy sex available everywhere is probably true. We have now taught men they should get it fast and easy, and now we can’t go back.

  11. 11
    Morris

    Although I understand women may lose out on some guys if they don’t ‘satisfy’ them. I don’t agree that one needs to put out so early in a relationship. I can’t recall a single woman, that I was smitten with, that I would have dumped just because she didn’t put out in a timely matter.

     

    Are the men that are going to leave really worth pursuing?(I don’t think there is a right or wrong answer to that.) Women are putting out more today than ever. And relationships are as fickle as ever. I’d almost argue women should be going the opposite direction.

     

    Also, I’d think it would just make it harder to filter out the ones that are just looking for a good time. And the potential for STD from all those bj’s! My goodness. Are people not up on how crazy scary HPV is?(Vaccine does not cure all forms of HPV and they are still finding new ones. And sorry fellas. No cure for you!)

    1. 11.1
      Morris

      And I’m saying all those bj’s while thinking of my friends. My female friends don’t seem to have a hard time finding men to date. They seem to find a hard time finding men to stick around.

       

      Maybe I’m old fashioned. But if they are ‘satisfying’ all those men that get to date 3-4. I’m going to have to rethink family-style dining when we’re all out together.

      1. 11.1.1
        Emily, the original

        Morris,

        You’re a man so I will ask you: Is 4 weeks really that long to wait for sex? In a month’s time, the couple has gone out, what, maybe 4 times? If the idea is to not have sex until exclusivity, can all that be arranged (that you really like each other, that you’re ditching the other people you may have been dating, that you are “on board” with starting a relationship) in only a month?

        1. Morris

          @Emily, the original – No. A month isn’t a big deal if I was genuinely interested in the person AND that person wasn’t casually dating other guys while ‘satisfying’ them. If it was casual. I’d say I probably wouldn’t wait that long though.

           

          That’s also why I don’t think there is a right answer. Sometimes casual turns into serious. A person might miss out on the casual daters if they insist on wait a month. Or however long.

          On the other hand. I think it’s a great way to weed out the men that aren’t really in it for the long haul.

          I think the best thing is wait until you’re comfortable. Period. If it takes a person longer so what. You might miss out on some casual turn serious relationships. On the other hand you’ll weed out some players.

           

        2. Morris

          On your second point. Yes. I don’t see why you couldn’t be in a exclusive ‘sexual’ relationship around the one month point. Personally I don’t like having multiple sexual partners. It feel unnatural and it’s most definitely unsafe.

           

          But I also would have gone out a bit more than 4 times. And after date 3-4(usually around week 2 for me) you should really be getting to know the person better. Talking daily even. By the time week 4 comes along. I don’t see why a person wouldn’t know if there is potential for a relationship.

           

          There are plenty of men that aren’t so short-sighted and can wait a little for something meaningful.

        3. Emily, the original

          Morris,

          It can be difficult for a woman to wait a month if the chemistry is at a level 10. But I thought the advice on this site was to look for a level 6 or 7 chemistry and then determine the level of compatibility. Determining that takes time.

        4. Emily, the original

          Hi Morris,

          Appreciate your responses.

          “Personally I don’t like having multiple sexual partners. It feel unnatural and it’s most definitely unsafe.”

          I agree. It’s not my thing, either, but when you are first dating someone, you can’t assume anything and demanding to know who else they are spending time with can come off as pushy.

          “But I also would have gone out a bit more than 4 times. And after date 3-4(usually around week 2 for me) you should really be getting to know the person better. Talking daily even.”

          You are talking daily after two weeks of dating? And after four weeks you are ready to say that you are in a relationship and exclusive? It’s not an indictment; just a genuine question. Do men move that quickly? (I ask because all you ever hear about is how men don’t want to commit.)

        5. Morris

          @Emily, the original – Maybe I’m different. I have a clean bill of health. Get checked at least yearly. And I don’t think I’d even sleep with someone who hasn’t had a checkup since their last sexual encounter. I’ve know too many people with STD’s and I don’t care to go down that road.

           

          So before I get intimate with someone. It can be 2 weeks in. 4 weeks. 6 weeks. It all depends.(Longest was 3 months just to give you context.) But before that happens I definitely let them know I only do exclusive sexual partners. And they better have a clean bill of health. It’s only been an issue once in my dating life.

           

          To your second question. Every relationship has been different. Some I’ve hit it off right away and it was exclusive barely 2 weeks in. One took 3 months before we had sex. I don’t mind going fast or slow. I just do what feels right with that person.

           

          But if I find someone that I’m really interested in. I’m not going to wait x weeks just because. I have to assume she’s on week 4 with some other guy. I’m going to have to step it up.

        6. Not Jerry

          I’m with Morris.

          If I am seeing someone new and I see her more than twice, she ought to be open with starting a relationship with me, one that’s exclusive.

          I will be exclusive pretty quickly, if she’s not I’ll say goodbye.

          I’m a one woman man, and if I cannot rule her in (or out) pretty quickly I will not take the time.  Three months while we date others?  That would never happen, not with me. If she’s seeing others I will just let her go on and see them, but not me.

          That said, I do know women who are dating several men at the same time, and I sometimes criticize them on it.  They have no idea what they want their future to look like.  What they want to see every day.

          They haven’t done the necessary self-examination. To set their goals, figure out what the end game is.  They have no goal.

          Some are just dating to have fun, and that’s fine but I don’t do that.

          If there’s no chance this person is whom I want to see every day I won’t see her again. Because I do have a goal in mind.

          Admittedly I am a lot older than most of you. That might come into it.

        7. Not Jerry

          BTW, none of what I said has much to do with sex.

        8. Tom10

          @ Not Jerry
          “That said, I do know women who are dating several men at the same time, and I sometimes criticize them on it
           
          That’s not cool dude; who are you to criticize them? How would you like it if others criticized you?
           
          How about you date in a way that suits you, and leave the women you know date in a way that suits them? Live and let live and all that…

        9. Not Jerry

          Tom10,

          This is blogging, right?

          The woman I said that to is one I talk to as friends about relationships often. She is always complaining to me about the men she meets that she doesn’t want to see again, or they clearly do not want to see her again.  I said she ought to try to rule them out before she meets them.  She said the other day talking to me has helped her to visualize what she is trying to achieve.

          So discussing her approach to dating is exactly what she calls me for. I am also in a singles group where men and women my age are often discussing such things. That is my opinion, so in the context it’s completely cool.  Just like here on the blog.

          If you are not having success in dating, you tell what you know, ask what you don’t.  Like on any blog.  Others will tell you what they think which you are free to ignore. But if you didn’t want to hear others’ views, why would you ask? Why would you come here at all?  There’s be no point.

        10. Emily, the original

          Morris and Not Jerry,

          Morris: “But if I find someone that I’m really interested in. I’m not going to wait x weeks just because.”

          Not Jerry: “If I am seeing someone new and I see her more than twice, she ought to be open with starting a relationship with me, one that’s exclusive.”

          I agree that there’s no set amount of time it takes to make it to exclusivity, and, like both of you, I’m not particularly interested in dating more than one person at a time. It takes too much energy, and I have never found 2 people I really liked at the same time who were what I call the 3 A’s: Available, Appealing and Actionable.

          Not Jerry: I agree with the idea that after date 2 things can pick up. I wouldn’t be amenable to going on a 3rd date with someone I didn’t really like. However, there are people (men and women) who will date someone up to 3 times to see if there is chemistry and compatibility. For some people, 3 dates is the trial period.

          With all that being said, I think you have to be careful how quickly you make your interest in the person and in an exclusive relationship known. Someone coming at me with like a freight train kills my interest. I don’t want to be handed the whole kit and caboodle in a matter of a couple of weeks.

           

        11. Evan Marc Katz

          “Not Jerry: “If I am seeing someone new and I see her more than twice, she ought to be open with starting a relationship with me, one that’s exclusive.”

          Yeah, that’s another made up rule that’s not going to work well. NotJerry is going to scare the shit out of a healthy woman who has plenty of dating options and doesn’t want to be forced to call someone a boyfriend after TWO dates. Sorry, NotJerry, you’re no different than the women who insist that everyone see things their way or else.

        12. Not Jerry

          If she’s got too many options she’s probably to busy for me.
          But as I said, I am older.

          Not like the 20 somethings who are maybe dating around more than I would.

          There has to be mutual interest in moving forward. If I don’t sense any from her I may just see if she pursues me at all. If not, no loss.

        13. Caroline

          Hi Not Jerry-I respect you wanting to be a “one woman man” but.. At least when I was dating online; it was feast or famine. I either had a bunch of guys interested or one I was definitely not interested in. Now don’t get me wrong-I’m not talking about sex. It was pretty common to have 3-5 guys interested at one time. It usually dwindled quickly from 1-3 dates. Only a couple of times was I dating two guys at once where I had gone beyond 3 dates with both. And funny, it probably was because I was on the fence with both of them . It dudnt work put with either.Seems like I knew pretty quickly if it was a guy I wanted to get to know. Honestly, if someone knew he wanted to be exclusive after 2 dates; it would scare me off. I’ve had my share of guys who wanted to get serious too fast and it was a turnoff. The men I have gotten serious with; it has happened very organically and it felt right. I guess everyone is different:)

      2. 11.1.2
        Tom10

         
        Fair enough Not Jerry; if she came and asked your opinion on what she’s doing wrong then it’s okay to proffer your opinion.
         
         
         
        However, even in this circumstance, I would shy away from the word “criticize” as I find it unhelpful. “Suggest” would be unhelpful.
         
         
         
        Maybe it’s just me but I find it almost impossible to actually help others with their dating lives; despite decrying to seek the help and advice of others I’ve found the vast majority of people are simply looking for a sounding board in which to vent their grievances, rather than actually make real changes based on the opinions of others.
         
         
         
        Therefore, with personal friends and acquaintances I usually just empathize, smile and nod, even if this isn’t very productive. It just gives them the shoulder to cry on that they were actually looking for.
         

        1. Tom10

          *”Suggest” would be more helpful.

        2. Not Jerry

          I have people ask my opinion all the time on dating and other life issues.  I guess because they know I will tell them the truth.  Not that I have all the answers. I don’t.

          I had a friend who called me up asking me about what she should do after she walked out on a man and went home after about 10 dates.  Because he had lied about his age.  She drove home, about 40 miles.

          I just said “If he’s a good guy, and he must have been if you saw him that many times, you have to decide whether that disqualifies him or not.”  She was dissatisfied with that answer.   But she went out with him 10x and had no vision for where that relationship was reasonably going.  A principle she and I have discussed many times.

          I think a vision for whether the person you are seeing is a potential keeper better be coming into focus by the third or fourth time you see them.

          If it’s not, time for self-examination.

    2. 11.2
      GoWiththeFlow

      Morris,

      I never understood the attitude that oral sex was closer to French kissing than to intercourse on the escalating sexual activity scale even before a good friend of mine came down with HPV induced oral-pharyngeal cancer a few years back.  She had been widowed after being married for 20+ years to her college sweetheart.  They were each other’s firsts and were faithful to each other.  The first guy my friend had sex with a few years after her hubby died was a widower, who it turns out, had been wildly unfaithful during his marriage.  A year after they became a couple, my friend noticed an enlarged lymph node on the side of her neck and ten days later she underwent surgery and then had a six month course of radiation.  She survived but she has a huge scar from the base of her ear to her collarbone, and persistent issues with swallowing and a dry mouth.

      The problem with the mindset that engaging in oral sex is a no-biggie activity, is that it doesn’t take into account that STDs can be spread this way that can seriously impact pne’s health.  And in practice, people who will automatically practice safe with intercourse by using a condom never use a condom or dental dam when engaging in oral sex.

      Your take on the “risks” of family style dining made me laugh.  But, yes, one of the first thoughts that came to mind at the thought of adopting the tie-him-over-with-blowjobs strategy is that a woman is having NSA, one-sided oral sex, to try and achieve committed intercourse sex.  So during the NSA blow job phase, she is is sucking on a dick that may have been in any number of other mouths, vaginas, or rectums because it IS no-strings-attached sex.

      FYI, get your young sons vaccinated against HPV as well as your girls.  Men are more susceptible to HPV induced oral-pharyngeal cancer than wome are!

      1. 11.2.1
        Morris

        I’ve never understood it either. I think people need to be better educated. What we know about STD’s have changed a lot in the last decade or so. Especially in regards to HPV. Some of these might not even impact you until decades later. NSA bj’s at your own risk ladies.

        1. Lilyp

          I couldn’t agree more Morris.

        2. Shaukat

          Morris, the only way you can contract a serious STD from a BJ is if she has cuts or secretions in her gums. You can’t transfer HPV or HIV or most other STD’s through saliva. So if that’s what you’re worried about, then a BJ is similar to French kissing because the latter also only puts you at risk if both parties have cuts on their gums.

          Now, if you’re a woman performing oral sex and you swallow, that’s a different story.

        3. SMC

          Now, if you’re a woman performing oral sex and you swallow, that’s a different story.

          Shaukat, not sure if you were referring to my post above, but yes, if you swallow, it IS a different story. Like Morris, I have and insist on clean bills of health.  ON PAPER.  I don’t date multiple people at once, it’s exhausting and I can really on focus on one at a time.  But he gets my FULL focus.   I did an experiment once where I went out with three different guys in one week.  My best friend had men falling all over her and she routinely “circular dated,” but I did it just that once and I quite frankly didn’t care for it.  All were nice guys though none tripped my trigger, and I just didn’t feel as if I could really be myself while conducting the same small talk three separate times in a 5-day span.  It’s one-at-a-time for this gal.  It DID prove to me, though, that I couldn’t go on a second date with someone who had zero appeal to me after a first date.  The happy ending here is that we continued to be good dance partners, there were no hard feelings.  (I do love a happy ending.)

        4. Shaukat

          Morris, that site you link to doesn’t actually refute what I said; there is a risk, but not from saliva mixing with semen. This is from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC):

          Some studies suggest that oral HPV may be passed on during oral sex (from mouth-to-genital or mouth-to-anus contact) or open-mouthed (“French”) kissing, others have not. The likelihood of getting HPV from kissing or having oral sex with someone who has HPV is not known.

          http://web.archive.org/web/20170126085727/https://www.cdc.gov/std/hpv/stdfact-hpvandoropharyngealcancer.htm

        5. JB

          There is no male test for HPV so a man would never know if he even has it and it’s dormant. The goofy Dr. Oz show told people they could get oral HPV from sharing a cup of water. Thus scaring everyone in his entire audience. If you don’t believe me Google it.

        6. Morris

          @Shaukat – How did you read that and come away with FK being basically the same as oral sex?

           

          It said more research needs to be done. We do know it’s transmitted sexually. And eventually one can get it in the mouth as well.(If one partner has it. Eventually both partners will have it.) I’m pretty sure there isn’t a lot of ways your mouth gets in contact with a vagina or anus except by oral sex.

           

          FYI, your link only talks about HPV. Interesting enough also on CDC site http://www.cdc.gov/std/hpv/common/ai/ai.pdf (You cannot get it(HPV) by: Kissing on the mouth, hugging, or holding hands.) Again, apparently more research need to be done. And again, we do know oral HPV exists so how does it get there???

           

          And if you read the first article in my original post. How exactly did you miss this “The proportion of newly-diagnosed college students with genital herpes infections attributed to HSV-1 increased from 31% in 1993 to 78% in 2001. Although HSV-1 infections were seen in both males and females, they were more common in females. Age was also a factor, with more HSV-1 infections occurring in persons 16-21 years old than in persons 22 or older.” Oral to Genital herpes increasing from 31% to 78%. That’s not FK. And we all know how common oral sex has become. Doesn’t take much to realize what’s contributing to this.

           

          And all the other STDs that can be transmitted orally. You do realize there is such a thing as pre-cum right? http://plannedparenthood.tumblr.com/post/79983614349/does-pre-cum-spread-stds

           

          I can go on but I think I’ve made my point.

        7. Shaukat

          Morris, note that the CDC states that more research needs to be done on both oral sex and French kissing in order to determine whether the risk of contracting HPV from each activity. You can obviously contact it through sexual activity, but the risk of contracting it from oral sex is currently thought to be extremely low. And my point, which still stands, is that it is transferred from one partner to another through blood, not saliva. This is the consensus within the medical and scientific community. And if an individual has cuts or sores in their gums, then it can be transferred through FK as well. Also, according to the San Francisco AIDS Foundation, the risk of contracting HIV from oral sex is extremely low even when the woman swallows, because enzymes in the stomach kill the virus.

          It is true that other stds, such as syphilis and chlamydia, can be contracted through oral sex, but again, there is also the risk of transmitting such diseases through deep kissing because of sores in the mouth.

        8. JB

          but the risk of contracting it from oral sex is currently thought to be extremely low.”

          It probably is low but that didn’t stop Michael Douglas & Bruce Dickinson from getting cancer from oral HPV from going down on women. Although I’m sure both have been with MANY women but all it takes is 1 …. the wrong 1.

        9. Nicole

          Morris, I don’t really want to mince words here but you should be aware that HPV is NOT an STD, it is an STI and that is a different beast.  Also, please be aware that 70% of actively dating folks in the US will have HPV at one point or another and the majority will never know it because most people who contract it will experience no symptoms and it will clear their system in about two years.  Lyme disease is actually also an STI and is potentially much more dangerous than a high-risk strain of HPV (defined as a strain that could possibly cause cervical cancer but does not present with warts).  Anyway, it’s not to say that I disagree with you, but HPV is highly contagious and since there’s no test for men, trying to avoid it is like trying to avoid aging if you plan on dating at all.

          I still agree with your point that with oral sex, you run a lot more risks for these sorts of issues than with protected intercourse, so yes, for me I hold off on it until I’m ready for sex.  Doesn’t mean you can’t have some fun using your hands until then, and then you can avoid most of those pesky STD’s!

      2. 11.2.2
        Adrian

        Morris,  GoWithTheFlow,  and SMC

         

        So how do each of you go about asking a new partner about being screened for STD’s before you have sex with them?

         

        I always organically brought up the topic with women weeks before I felt it was time to have sex and they have always agreed it’s a good thing to practice. But, once I actually said that I would like “both” of us to get tested and share our results before we had sex, from the look they usually give me, you would think I just accused them of having AIDS or having dirty genitals.

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          Adrian,

          The last two boyfriends it was pretty easy.  I had exited a relationship, then may yearly gym visit was scheduled.  My OB/gyn is a friend, so we were catch up chatting and she said are you still seeing X?  When I told her I wasn’t, she said well let’s get you tested today so you’ll be ready to go for the next one 😉

          So I had my test results when I met one guy at a party.  We started a long distance relationship so that put the brakes on sex for a little while, enough for me to mention that I had been tested.  He said, that’s a good idea, I’ll call my doctor’s office tomorrow to see what I need to do.

          About 7-8 months later be broke up.  A little bit later I was in again for my annual well woman exam, and got tested again.  A few months later I met my next boyfriend.  His marriage had ended because his wife had cheated on him, so he had been tested and I was his first relationship post divorce.

          If it’s something you do as a routine part of care after you exit a relationship, you’re ready to go and it’s easy to say, so I’ve been tested. . . and then it’s easy to go from there.  If you get resistance to the idea, walk away!

        2. Adrian

          GoWithTheFlow,

          Thanks. I will take your advice and try to be more nonchalant about the subject as you mentioned and wait to see if the women volunteer the exchange or results.

           

          I will never forget a story that I heard about a guy dating a women whom had STDs (I believe she got it from a ex partner who didn’t tell her). She told the guy she had a STD but was taking medication, so it was under control.

           

          The guy still wanted to date her even after he found out… long story shortened, he some how caught it from her and I just remember her words still echoing in my ears… “I feel guilty that he caught it from me but he knew the risk when he decided to continue dating me.”

        3. GoWiththeFlow

          Adrian,

          My brother’s ex nut job, that I mentioned in another post had herpes and told my brother it was safe to have sex without a condom because she was on valtrex and she was only contagious if she had an obvious outbreak.  My brother never contracted the disease during the years he was with her, but he really freaked out when it came out in the news that a few infected people will still shed virus in their body fluid even when they are on antiviral therapy and don’t have an active outbreak.

          As for me, I fell into a way that works for me.  Get tested as part of my regular medical care, and then let my prospective partner know that I have clean results because I get yearly tests (I get exposed to blood and body fluids at work so my insurance covers some of the tests no questions asked).  People are afraid of offending when they ask about std status, so it removes that element somewhat.

        4. Morris

          @Adrian – I’m pretty open about it. Sex usually comes up in conversation before actually having it. I’ll just be very upfront about it. I’ll tell them my health is very important to me and that I only practice monogamous sex. And that we should both be tested before entering into such relationship. Hasn’t been a problem.

        5. SMC

          Adrian,

          I agree it’s somewhat awkward, but any reasonable person in this day and age should respect one’s wish for proof of good health.  The only person who insisted on it from me was the gentleman in my story above (who eventually married me), and I actually felt relieved that he asked for it because I didn’t know how to go about finding out if he was safe or not.  (I was in my early 30’s and very sexually naive at the time.)  He asked me just the way you ask your relationships – said we would both be tested and share our results.  I took no offense, and our relationship was wonderful.  If someone looks at you aghast, then…maybe she’s got something to hide.  Or maybe she doesn’t.  But NOBODY should be offended if asked to provide a clean bill of health.  It’s just stupid to NOT do so these days. My current relationship didn’t ask me because I’d been married for four years and hadn’t had sex in 3.5 of them.  He trusted me, but if he’d asked for a “doctor’s note,” I would have provided it with no fuss or bother.

  12. 12
    Malika

    Sex is fun! I don’t really see it as something to negotiate on, isn’t it just something that happens organically? You either want to have sex with him or you don’t. If you don’t, then that is more than fine. You can focus on meeting men you do want to have sex with. You don’t owe a man anything, it is also about your own sexual pleasure.

    I think it’s really good advice to go round the bases in the first (or first couple of) months. Having said that, I pretty much know within the first two dates (sometimes within the first two minutes!) whether i want to be sexually active with someone or not. The only reason I hold back is because i don’t want to seem like too easy a catch. I don’t want a man I date to bail because I took the mistery and excitement away from dating. I also want to figure out first what I exactly want from the specific man I am dating. Would I be fine if he never called me after we had gone to bed? Or should I wait a little while longer to see if he is as interested in me as I am in him? Every situation is different.

    This is from a very picky person. I have been on quite a few dates this year and felt sexually attracted to only one out of ten men. But I have had my share of adventures and I have calmed down a bit. I prefer quality over quantity in this period of my life.

    1. 12.1
      toddinhb

      I’m with you, Malika. I hope to find a mate who – like me – thinks sex is just plain fun. Why attach so much emotional baggage to it? There are very few sexual experiences that I can actually remember. I enjoy it, and want my partner to, as well.

  13. 13
    Callie

    Evan, I think there’s some confusion here and maybe it’s a question of definitions: do you not label oral sex as sex? Do you see it as a step up from petting possibly? As sort of an extension of casual making out?

    I ask because it would explain so much to me if that was the case. Because then it falls much more in line with your theories. Otherwise it doesn’t at all because you always say to women to wait before having sex. And for many, MANY, oral sex is precisely that, sex. For many who don’t even have penetrative sex, it is the only sex. It is as intimate as you can go, and for many many more is even more intimate than penetrative sex. Not just people who are slow to have sex, for people who will readily have a one night stand even. I’m pretty quick myself to get physical, and oral sex is pretty much the last thing that happens, not the first. Mouth on genitals is extremely intimate, and while it doesn’t result in pregnancy, it can result in the same spreading of STDs as penetrative. There is also a lot of baggage that comes specifically with the classic blow job. Teenage boys racking up points of how many girls they can get to blow them, men forcing women by holding their heads and not letting them breathe, not to mention an entire extremely popular form of porn where the man causes the woman to vomit through deep throating her. Then there’s the fact that there are many men happy to receive but not so happy to give. So a woman approaching giving someone a blow job must have a huge deal of trust in the man she is giving it to. A blow job isn’t just a casual experience for her, even if it might be for the man. Because, as you constantly point out, men and women are different and have different life experiences.

    I’m not sure this will change your mind on suggesting a woman just give a guy a blow job to keep him interested, but I do hope it’ll give you a sense of another perspective. One that isn’t “I don’t want to because I’m a prude” or “I take things slow” or ” I want him to just spoil me I don’t want to return in kind.”

  14. 14
    Adreana

    I’m going to have to rethink family-style dining when we’re all out together.

    LOL!

  15. 15
    John

    I tend to want to wait a bit for sex if I am dating a woman I really like. Sex tends to blind me to red flags. If the sex is good, I can find myself excusing all kinds of bad behavior. Instead of thinking my logic will trump the emotion of sex, I don’t put myself in that position.

  16. 16
    toddinhb

    This has been a perfect microcosm of the perils and misconceptions in dating. I have seen many of the viewpoints here in previous  relationships, and from losing my virginity in my 20s to a year working at Club Med to a near-marriage, occasional flings, and now in my 50s and on the dating marketplace, I understand that we are all products of our upbringing, insecurity, faith, self-image, inhibitions and core values.

    I have shed many of my inhibitions and hang-ups, but I also don’t hold them against anyone else. I say, live and let live, but I do know that I want to find someone who shares my passion for love, pleasure and wisdom.

    Ultimately, I just wish people were better at communicating what they like, dislike and tolerate. The misunderstandings and expectations of relationships can sabotage them, and our nature is to talk around them – or not at all – and remain mired in unhappiness and frustration.

    Then again, I could be completely wrong…

  17. 18
    30-Something Guy in NYC

    I get where Evan is coming from, but it doesn’t really work that way in my experience. Once you’re back at someone’s apartment, it’s pretty much on. Stopping at second or third base would be pretty weird at that point and would take an otherworldly level of self control. I don’t even drink and I would find that incredibly difficult. Personally, I’d be willing to wait until the second date to kiss and around date four to invite a girl back to my place (for sex). At date four, I think most people know whether they want to have sex or not. You’ll never know if the guy is there for the long term or not. There are no guarantees no matter how long you wait.

    And can we please stop counting partners. It’s 2016 and that is just ridiculous. I would never ask someone I’m dating how many people she’s been with and any guy who would ask that sounds inexperienced or insecure to me. Secure guys like girls that like sex. Girls that like sex, have sex. End of story.

    1. 18.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Once you’re back at someone’s apartment, it’s pretty much on. Stopping at second or third base would be pretty weird at that point and would take an otherworldly level of self control.”

      Then I must be otherworldly (as are most of my clients). Thanks for the compliment!

      1. 18.1.1
        Jenn

        Haha Evan, if you’re otherworldly then there must be another universe entirely for myself and my fellow WTMs!

  18. 19
    Nissa

    I have to admit that I was surprised at the idea that women still worry about their ‘number’. Doesn’t anything below 20 partners after the age of 35 count as low numbers? I don’t know any women who have specific rules for ‘do this on date one’ etc. I tend to not be physical, but it’s not because of a dogmatic rule, it’s just self knowledge of where I’m comfortable. Of course I could have a good time with just about anyone, I don’t have any doubts about that. I do have doubts about long term compatibility, so knowing if I can have fun and enjoy the man in question in a non physical way is what I’m exploring. When I like a man I do want to give my genuine self, something I value far more than sex. And once he knows me, and likes me enough to be exclusive, then I would consider including the physical.

    It’s a fair enough point to say that the woman should consider what a man wants. I just think men can get the lesser value of sex from many sources, whereas someone who the man considers long term material is something else. I have met many men that, while they enjoy sex, also deeply crave substance – unconditional love, acceptance of who they are instead of someone who wants to change them, appreciation for what they want to offer in a relationship, respect for their integrity and consistency. From the women I’ve seen, that’s a lot harder to find than someone who will have sex with you.

  19. 20
    S.

    I wrote a response.  Then I did something odd. I listened to the entire podcast. 🙂 Then I wrote this.

    Interesting stories.  I particularly recall the story guy who put his arm around a woman on the 2nd date and didn’t know that was too soon so he never tried again.  And then she was growing frustrated.  Don’t men know when it’s too soon and when it’s not? Don’t they establish some sort of rapport with a woman and try and get a sense what she’s feeling on every date? Maybe while women are trying to figure out how to keep a man they like interested somewhere between making out and a BJ, men could be learning to be a bit more intuitive. There is something between walking out naked and waiting seven dates to kiss a woman. (Examples from the podcast.) But, hey.  Evan’s a coach for women so men are on their own, I guess.

    So what’s a guy to do?  Try to get on the same page emotionally with the woman.  Read her body language.  Is it that difficult, especially once one is in their 40s?  Maybe it is for some men. I don’t have an answer what else to.

    As for women and arbitrary rules.  I don’t think it’s arbitrary. The guy who wants sex on date 1 or 2. He’s got there for a reason.  I don’t think he started out as a teenage boy there.  A woman who wants to wait until she gets to know a guy got there for a reason.  She didn’t just make that up in her head to be some “rule”.  People are doing what makes them feel safe. No one wants to feel taken advantage of.  I understand both parties.  I don’t know if there is an overlap in the venn diagram for these two types of people. And unfortunately, it seems like many men and women feel like this.

    Screw it.  Look for your overlapping circle.  Even if it’s a needle in a haystack. Burn the haystack. Stay single for a while if the burning burns you out.  Find the women who love to have sex on the first date and date them.  Evan makes it sound like a fate worse than death to be in the minority.  It’s not.  As long as it’s not just to be stubborn or out of fear or something.  I believe to thine own self be true. It may mean being alone for longer than most people.  But is that the worst thing in the world? Nope, it’s not.

    In the podcast Evan say it’s fine if you don’t want to give a guy a BJ/go to third base while you figure out if you want him to be your boyfriend. I didn’t get that from the comments here. He just said that women who will have a better chance of getting a man to stick around during that time.  I can’t disagree with that!  But men who want a woman to stick around have a better chance of that if they have a patience with whatever her timetable for sex is. Or find a woman who loves to move fast. Or wait for someone in the middle. Stay tuned in with your potential partner and see if you’re on the same page.  It’s kind of organic when it works. No discussion, people just . . . know.

    The more I listen to Evan’s podcasts I know in my bones the less confident men are the ones for me. It’s frustrating in a different way at times, but you pick your poison and that’s mine. Well, unless I find a middle ground guy in that haystack. 😉

    1. 20.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      “But men who want a woman to stick around have a better chance of that if they have a patience with whatever her timetable for sex is.”

      Sort of true. But not really. Any woman I met with a made up “rule” about X dates or weeks or months ALWAYS lost men. If you’re constantly losing men, you have yourself a self-selecting problem. You can justify it with “Well, the RIGHT guy would wait FOREVER,” and that’s okay. There’ll just be a much smaller pool of right guys. That holds true for ANY rule that EITHER gender makes.

      The guy who says, “I’m not paying for dates. It’s unfair, outdated, and I refuse to participate in courtship. The RIGHT woman will appreciate that and have an innate sense of fairness.” He will unintentionally – on principle – alienate most of his first dates. Eventually, he’ll find someone who is either very egalitarian and agrees than men shouldn’t pay, or, more likely, find a very insecure woman who will take whatever crumbs she can get from a man.

      My advice ALWAYS stems from what I believe is the most effective middle ground that works for the majority of both women AND men. If it’s only working for YOU; well, you may find yourself self-righteous and single – much like most of my most vociferous critics – who would rather be “right” than to be effective with the opposite sex.

      1. 20.1.1
        S.

        Thanks for replying to my comment.   I appreciate that.

        I don’t know any women who expect a man to wait forever, nor any woman who would want them to.  But I do think that people have to be on the same page about intimacy and pacing.

        My advice ALWAYS stems from what I believe is the most effective middle ground that works for the majority of both women AND men

        My only remaining question is “how”.  If men and women have gotten to certain places in their lives that may be less effective or reduce their dating pool, it’s not so easy to change what makes one feels safe.  Experiences get people where they are and one can’t just wake up one day and do something that every experience has taught them they ought not to do. Change is difficult and this isn’t a small, arbitrary thing to most men and women.

        I’m curious about the nuance of how someone would move one’s circle in the venn diagram over, if they feel very uncomfortable with it, but really want to try and move the circle.  A bit more detail on that would be helpful.

    2. 20.2
      Amanda

      Regarding moving your circle I find that like with any new habit or lifestyle change, simply making yourself do something gradually makes you somewhat more comfortable with doing it (ie it moves your circle).

      I am not personally particularly comfortable with having sex or ‘sexual relations’ as intimate as a BJ by the 3rd or 4th date, but I know that really doing so is in my best interests in terms of acquiring a relationship. I’ve done this several times (I just have the full sex) and it has proven effective as I rarely struggle to get into good long term relationships and I don’t find myself ending up bedding half my city to get there either.

      You also need to consider that we cannot always achieve things we want to achieve without suffering a level of discomfort to achieve them. I’m willing to suffer a bit of discomfort and indeed risk getting my heart broken, in the name of landing myself a good relationship.

      At the end of the day, sleeping with a man and starting to get a few feels within the time frame of a few months, is not going to result on a full on heart break if it fails … you’ll be over it within a few weeks, it’s not the end of the world.

      In essence, you cannot make an omelette without breaking some eggs and so we do all have to accept that the reality of dating (reality, not what we want it to be) is that discomfort and indeed the odd minor heart break along the way, is part and parcel of achieving what we want.

      1. 20.2.1
        S.

        Hey, we all do what we can live with. If you can have sex on the 3rd date and find that strategy effective, even though you don’t really want to, I’m happy that works for you.

        Evan says I might find myself self-righteous and single. I don’t think I’m self-righteous, though I am single.  I’m doing what’s right for me.  If I’m single and happy and you’re having sex on date 3 and happy, what matters to me we are both happy. I’ve found my peace with it in the many, many months since writing this comment.

        We each do what’s right for us.

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