Men Look for Sex and Find Love. Women Look for Love and Find Sex.

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Hi Evan,

I’ve been online dating for a while now, and I’ve started to notice a trend with a lot of the men who have contacted me. By way of background, I just ended a three month relationship with a man whom I met online because he did not want to be exclusive. He claimed that he didn’t want to date other people but he was hurt several times in the past by cheating girlfriends and didn’t want me to go thru the hurt again. For my part, I realize I’m at fault for waiting three months before asking for some type of commitment.

Hindsight has pointed out that on his profile he listed he wanted a "casual relationship" as opposite to my listing of wanting a "serious relationship". So now I’m back on the online dating scene and I’m paying better attention to what guys are saying they are looking for in their profile. Several guys put in their profile that they are looking for "friends" only, one guy even put that he’s too busy for a relationship right now.

Is this a case of semantics? Are these guys really just wanting to take it slow and be friends first? If they are really just looking for friends, why don’t they go on a free site like MySpace, Facebook, or Friendster? If it’s just a clever way to find booty calls, why don’t they go on Adultfriendfinder or Craigslist? If I want a bonafide relationship, should I just ignore these men when they contact me? Has looking for a relationship on a dating website become taboo?

Thanks for your insight,

Laura

Brace yourself for a shocking revelation!

Men very often don’t know what they want.

It’s not that he DOESN’T mean what he wrote; it just means he meant it AT THAT MOMENT.

This shouldn’t come as a surprise to you. You could probably tell from our actions. But it’s true. Most men can tell a story about how they weren’t looking for anything serious and then fell in love. And most men can tell a story about how they were looking for love, but discovered they had a lot of fun being single. (Most women could probably say the same.)

Therefore, you have to take any information in an online dating profile with a grain of salt. It’s not that he DOESN’T mean what he wrote; it just means he meant it AT THAT MOMENT. This is in accordance with the way we act on a date as well. Just because we think you’re attractive and we show you a good time doesn’t mean we’re actually INTERESTED. It just means we’re being "in the moment". Unfortunately, most women aren’t familiar with this concept until it’s much too late. That’s why half of my questions are versions of: "He sleeps with me, but-", "He says he loves me, but-", "We had an amazing date, but-". One of the most important – and frustrating – concepts that women need to get about men is that most things have NO meaning, beyond what’s being conveyed in the moment. Just because he wants a serious relationship doesn’t mean he wants one with YOU. Just because he has fun with you doesn’t mean he wants you as his girlfriend. Just because he thinks you’re sexy doesn’t mean he wants to commit to only you. Each time you think this is the case, you’re setting yourself up for heartbreak.

And so we go back to Laura’s insightful question – what does it all MEAN?

Well, I can only speak for myself here by pretending to be a guy dating online (I know, it’s a reach. Bear with me).

So let’s say I’m serious about falling in love. I go onto a dating site and list that I’m looking for marriage or a relationship. So, week after week, I date a lot of attractive women, none of whom feel like they will be my future wife. Which leaves me a number of questions that I’d like you to consider:

1) Am I supposed to NEVER hook up with them? No kissing, no foreplay, no sex with anyone that I don’t think I want to marry? Do you think the standard should be: heavy petting is only in exclusive relationships, or not at all?
2) If I DO hook up, but have no intention of committing to an individual woman, does that make me a bad guy?
3) How should I notify a woman that I am not serious about her before we start a physical relationship? What’s better? A written warning? Or perhaps a canned speech that while I find my date attractive and will gladly sleep with her for a few weeks, I’m actively continuing to pursue other women in the meantime? How’s that gonna go over?
4) Finally, if I do, in fact, want to hook up from time to time, does that, in any way, mean that I’m NOT looking for a serious relationship?

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202 Comments »Filed Under Dating Tips & Advice, Favorites, Sex & Relationship Advice

202 Responses to “Men Look for Sex and Find Love. Women Look for Love and Find Sex.”

Peter 1

One thing to know about men, is that we love the thrill of the hunt. And if women are being honest, they loved to be chased.

So understanding that, know that men’s first prize is to have sex (I’m sure some guy out there will say “no”, but trust me, this applies to the other 99.9%). Once we’ve achieved that, you have to give us another hunt to go after. If you immediately go into relationship mode right after our first sexual encounter, we will have a tendency to lose interest. Why? Because there is nothing left to chase after.

If however, after having sex with us, you pull away some, you’ll be surprised how hard we will try to earn your adoration. That’s something we want just as much as sex.

Is it a game? Sure. But human attraction goes far beyond rational thinking and logic. You have to excite the animal within as well.
Robin 2

Evan,
Your answer to “Men Look for Sex and find Love” is disheartening at best for all us ladies out there trying to find love and just being ourselves.

So, if this is the REAL truth, then there is only one question for us: “How do we stop being women?” Most women I know develop feelings, they get attached, (even if the guy is a total jerk). I think it’s part of our DNA. The only way that poor Lauren and lots of others are going to avoid this tragic scenario is to stop being women and become like men (emotionally I mean). If we keep being sweet and loving, we continually get hurt. Men wonder why some women are so cold and calculating? Take a wild guess. Thanks for your column. I am a big fan.
Zann 3

I just read Peter’s comment (#1) above. Sure, he may not speak for all men, but I’ll bet he’s pretty damn close. And while I find that kind of honesty refreshing, all I can say is ……Wow. Admit it dudes, you are some pretty strange beings.
xpuff 4

Yeah, reading this is pretty damn depressing from a women’s point of view. What are we supposed to do? Guys will tell us what they think we want to hear because they “mean it at the time.” Great. So how to tell who’s a good guy?

I realize that is just reality, but seriously, men just get everything they want and women just have to wait to get lucky?
Honey 5

I was the BF’s first date after he got out of a 4-year relationship, and he was moving 120 miles away within a week. I e-mailed him on myspace and he went out with me purely because 1) I seemed attractive and interesting, 2) he needed some practice before moving to a new city and REALLY dating.

We had sex that first night and are still together 2.5 years later, living together and trying to save up for engagement and a wedding.

So anything can happen at any time…Evan’s right I think, that most people if they found something that would work perfectly for them long-term will turn the interaction into a LTR even if they SAID that’s not what they were looking for. Similarly, even someone who explicitly states they are looking for a LTR will turn things into a booty call, friendship, or nothing at all if the situation warrants it. It’s less about what someone says they are looking for (though you do get some extremes where people absolutely won’t consider anything but a booty call or a serious relationship) and more about how the two of you mesh.

And because I thought this was a little disturbing, I wanted to say–I think 3 months is EXACTLY about when you can expect to find out if a relationship’s heading in a serious direction or not. 3 months is about when we had the boyfriend/girlfriend talk (though we were exclusive before that because we wanted to have sex but didn’t want to use condoms) and about the time he moved back to my city.

Hooray!
JuJu 6

Yeah, it’s like we are from different planets in this regard.

I remember talking to a guy friend who said that what he likes best in a woman is if she is not particularly interested in him. And I was like, “wha…?” If I am attracted to a guy, obviously I want him to be interested, I want him to be as interested as he is capable of!

Go figure. =)
Selena 7

I dated a guy once who told me on our first date he was the kind of man who usually dated more than one woman at a time, how did I feel about that?

I considered it. At that moment I wasn’t particularly looking for something serious. In fact in the year before I met him, I hadn’t been “looking” for anything at all. I told him I’d give it a try. I warned him if I started falling in love with him I’d want to renogotiate. I also told him that I would either fall in love with him within 3 months or I wouldn’t at all. On that note of complete honesty, we began a casual dating relationship.

It lasted 2.5 months and it was fine for what it was. I enjoyed his company, but I never did fall in love with him and after a time I decided I wanted more in the way of a relationship…just not with him. I ended it and it was the most painless breakup I’ve ever had. He told me he understood, but could we still keep seeing each other until I fell in love with someone else. I had to laugh. I also said “no”.

His honesty was so refreshing. And it is something I’ve carried with me since. When another relationship opportunity presented itself later in the year I put the exclusivity card on the table up front. I had decided I didn’t want to sleep with someone who was also playing the field, I was looking for something that might become more than casual. And I got it. No hemming and hawing around about it. I wish all men could be so forthright.

I get it that men don’t want to be honest for fear of missing out on sex. Unfortunately, that puts us women in the often uncomfortable position of stalling them longer than we would wish to. It becomes a fine line between waiting long enough that we have some confidence they won’t just bail after getting sex, and hoping they won’t bail before because they get tired of waiting and write us off as frigid. It’s a wonder that people are actually able to form significant relationships at all given the subtrafuge.
Honey 8

@xpuff, #4: what makes him a bad guy for being honest at the time? Why does the fact that it turns out to not be the case in perpetuity somehow make him a villain? It could be disappointing for you, yes, but I’m not sure that it says anything negative about his character.
Karl R 9

I agree with Evan, men don’t always know what they want. And even when they do, how they handle the (often contradictory) things they want doesn’t always make sense.

I’ll use my own life as an example. I would like a long term, exclusive relationship. Lately I’ve been dating a couple women. I don’t intend to date either exclusively.

I met one lady through dancing; I thought there was some long-term potential, but the age difference has turned out to be too much for me. I met the other lady when I sat near her at a restaurant. She’s a hot foreigner, but she doesn’t seem sufficiently interested in me. It’s possible that she’s just playing hard to get, but unlike Peter (#1), I don’t pursue women unless they’re interested in me.

To complicate things further, I don’t have sex with a woman unless we’re exclusive. So even though I’d really like to have sex with either one of these ladies, I won’t.

So why do I continue to go out with both of these ladies? Because sometimes I like to spend an evening with an attractive lady. Because I like to spend time with women who are cute and fun. And because it usually doesn’t interfere with my normal activities … where I meet other attractive, single women who might be long term relationship material.

Basically, I’m performing a balancing act between my desires and my standards, between my short term goals and my long term goals. And as Evan indicated, I spend a lot of my time living in the moment.
Michelle 10

Some guys fear intimacy and look for mother substitutes their whole life. The more the merrier! Sometimes guys look for that one woman who will show they value themselves enough say no they won’t settle for a non-exclusive relationship like all the others, and stick to it.

But yes this has to be established up front or forget it! However, if they can get you to compromise on this issue, they tend to loose all respect, (you loose all the power), and they feel free to come and go and see and sleep with whomever whenever…no matter how attached you get. Because hey it’s not a real relationship to them is it?
Charon 11

I have to say that this article hit home. This is the exact issue that i deal with and some of my girlfriends deal with. I am starting to sort of get the whole mechanics of attraction and how men see things and how women see things. There is not guarantee in life about anything and it seems you have to pay to play. Selena particulary hit the nail on the head when she said there is basically that fine line where you straddle that I don’t want him to get frustrated and leave but I don’t want to give it all up the first night. Thanks for the article
A-L 12

I sort of understand this concept of men, though at the same time I think there are the guys that are very LTR/marriage-minded, perhaps because of their own desire to have kids or settle down by a certain age. I think many of these guys don’t necessarily hide their intentions when on an online dating site. That being said, however, I think Evan’s right about most guys.

In terms of how girls should react, I don’t think it’s necessary to put your heart out there to be trampled on. Sex (well orgasms, however they’re produced) creates the incredibly bonding oxytocin which causes women to latch on to the guy. By abstaining until exclusivity then the woman is much better able to just hang out with the guy, enjoy his company, and see where things go without becoming totally neurotic about it.

Also, if you find yourself obsessing about a guy, go out and date other guys. You won’t have the time to obsess about him as much (a little bit is inevitable, I admit it), it gives you more options, and it also helps the guy realize that you aren’t always going to be there at his beck and call.

Recently, I was in a phase where there were three guys in the picture. One I agonized over mentally and had explosive chemistry with. Another I enjoyed his company and had some chemistry with, but was fine when we weren’t hanging out. And the third was uber-nice and had the same interests and sense of humor but little in the way of sparkage. But because I was seeing these different guys, I didn’t let any one tip me too far over the edge, because I was just enjoying myself and not feeling the need to pin anything down. Guys 1 and 3 are pretty much out of the romantic picture now, but things are going along rather swimmingly with guy #2. But if he’d been the only one in the picture from the get to, I may have obsessed about things too much and ruined it. At least now there’s the possibility of this turning into something more serious.
hunter 13

to Karl R on post 9,

I agree with what you say. Most men are contradictory, because, I think, most of us, we don’t really know what we are doing.(lack of experience)hhmmhh…LOL!…yes….

Most men don’t know, we can look for a long term relationship, get into a long term relationship, three or six months into it,(or sooner or later) change our minds,(for whatever reason) and get out of it, if that is what we want to do. “I can’t be the man you want me to be.” “I am going back to my old girlfriend.”

Your two friendships won’t get complicated, until, you have sex with them.
Kenley 14

I really wanted to believe that most men were good guys who didn’t knowingly and willingly hurt women. Evan’s response was very sad to me because it suggests that men want sex first and foremost and they don’t care who they hurt to get it. In order to avoid getting hurt, women can’t trust not only what men say but what they do as well. However, I am having a difficult reconciling this post with the one where Evan says that we have to be generous and kind and accepting in order to find love. I don’t really understand how a woman can be generous and loving if at the same time, she can’t trust a man.

Honey, you are very fortunate to have a great relationship with boyfriend, but you should realize that men who sleep with women on the first date rarely have any thing to do with them again. Like you, when I met my boyfriend of 17 years, we had sex on the first date. And he was pretty much devoted to me. When we broke up, I thought sleeping with a guy on the first date was a good thing. Boy was I wrong! I slept with a number of men on the first date — ones that I really liked and thought liked me — and I never made it to a second date with any of them! I was shocked, but I learned my lesson. So, my own personal experience plus the stuff I’ve read from other dating experts indicates that it is extremely rare that a long term relationship blossoms when a couple has sex on the first date. So, while I agree what ultimately determines what people will do is based on how they mesh, the odds aren’t in favor of people meshing when they sleep with each other on day one. You were one of the rare and lucky ones.
Lynn 15

What happened to integrity? What happened to communicating like a grown-up? What happened to any kind of accountability? Did all of this get thrown out the window when women achieved equal rights? Now it sounds like women can expect nothing from men and be happy if they get anything, even honesty. Maybe I am just having a bad week, Evan, but it seems like this post acknowledges the fact that men are wielding all the power out there over women, and if we want to play, it’s the luck of the draw.
mic 16

If any men are “wielding all the power,” it’s the especially good-looking men. Less attractive men probably have less power than they used to.

The key line in Laura’s letter:
Hindsight has pointed out that on his profile he listed he wanted a casual relationship as opposite to my listing of wanting a serious relationship.
Educated guess: she liked his picture(s).
Jojo 17

“The truth is that if we tell you that we don’t know what’s going to happen in the morning, nothing will ever happen.”
Boo hoo if he gets no sex that night! So basically the guy has to be dishonest in order to get sex from a girl. Unfortunately, we cannot change the behavior of people, but I feel that we’re all adults and should be able to communicate honestly with each other. I know the guys speak and act out of the moment and you have to take what they say with a grain of salt sometimes. However, when it comes down to the act of sex, there really should not be game playing.
hunter 18

to Mic on post #16

How true!…yet, we can still enjoy the feminine graces of women in other categories.
hunter 19

to Jojo on post #17

Most nice guys are honest communicators, I don’t think they earn time in the “sack”, that is why they are called “nice” guys.
xpuff 20

Honey, I guess what I meant by “good” guy is “good for me”, not good in an absolute-morality-of-the-universe way. I understand guys wanting the things that they want at the time, I’ve been there myself. However when I was dating, it was extremely frustrating to encounter this sort of behavior. The guys weren’t bad guys necessarily, just not good for me.
JuJu 21

re: Lynn’s post #15

I don’t think I agree with this. What kind of power are you implying?

A woman can take as much “power” back as she wants (that is, if we are choosing to think in terms of power, which I personally really do not) by being self-aware enough to recognize that this feeling of immediate attachment is not real, but hormonal, and by loving herself enough to continue living an active life.
Lili 22

Why would I want to have sex with a man whom I don’t trust?

No trust = no orgasm, even if man is otherwise sexually interesting.

I don’t see the point of pleasing a man, unless I get what I desire. I am so selfish that I want to get it too.

And real trust won’t come only from attraction, it only comes when you know him well enough to know what his inner world is like. If he is trustworthy, and interested, he will also understand my point on the matter. So what am I losing when I’m not having sex with a total stranger? (after 2 weeks he is still that)
Absolutely nothing, and only weeding out those ones that a relationship wouldn’t work with anyway.

Nice to know that my method works, I wouldn’t want to have a sleeze anyway for my partner (a man who has sex under false pretences = is willing to hurt other one to get his own kicks, is a sleeze, not worth interest anyway).
Anisa 23

Where is the respect, where is the integrity.
There are many women who have no problem having sex with men without committment or without being exclusive. So those man (without serious intentions, looking for easy sex) can make more efforts to meet those women. Many women want to be exclusive before having sex. It is very simple: be honest about your intentions and respect the principles of those women. So, Evan: Yes, if a man lies in order to achieve “easy” sex it makes him a bad person in my opinion. A lazy abuzer abuser.
I think men (looking for easy sex) are in fact looking/hunting exactly for those women of principle who had not that many sexpartners yet to have sex with without commitment.
hunter 24

to Anisa on post #23

“There are many women who have no problem”……..usually the married women that need to be financially rescued(and who wants one of those?) or if they are single, in a much smaller pool of availability….if things were as you say, we wouldn’t hear herds of single men howling in the streets at 2:00a.m., on weekends, after the bars close…..hhhmmmhh..LOL!…..
MILENA 25

Based on Evan’s post I would just simply say” ALL man are dogs”
Anisa 26

to Hunter
“who wants one of those…” (post #24)

There are different categories of men looking for easy sex.
The men your are talking about are those who don’t have the time or the energy or are too frustrated to play the hunting-game….or they lack the looks to catch an attractive woman through their own efforts, or they have problems with paying for sex, or the reason is anonimity etc. etc. Prostitutes are their only or their best option. The others will preferably chase after the so called hard to get women.
Thanks for supporting my proposition.
Anisa 27

correction on # 25: the ones who have problems with paying for sex are avoiding the prostitutes. They belong to the other category.
Lance 28

I watched a youtube video on the same morning I read this post relating to tantra, and the speaker (female) said that men look for sex first and find love, women look for love first and get sex, and thus we have the battle of the sexes. Weird coincidence. I firmly believe it, though. Men are wired for the physical and physical intimacy first, emotional intimacy second, and we’re wishy washy on early commitment. I’m okay with that as long as we find common ground.

I have frequently said in my dating profiles that I’m looking for casual dating and an LTR, depending on if the right gal came along, and it’s true. If you’re LTR material, I’ll go down that road. Otherwise, it’s sex only!!!
Hot Alpha Female 29

I agree with a lot of the comments here.

If you are a woman who needs commitment before sex, then be upfront with your date first.

Dont sleep with him and then try and tell him that you don’t want to do it anymore until he commits, thats like blackmail.

A similar quote that comes to mind that is related to this topic goes along the lines

“Men trade commitment for sex. Women trade sex for commitment”

Happens all the time. Now that’s not to say that all men just want sex and all women just want commitment.

But these are the bargaining chips for negotiation.

Hot Alpha Female
Bob S 30

I agree with Evan on this one. I’d like a long term relationship on most days, but other days I like being able to date whomever I feel like spending time with at the moment.

As to sex, I’d prefer it to be with someone I really like and with whom I’m enjoying a monogamous relationship. That being said, I’ve done it on the first date one time, and not at all with others even after dating them on and off for 3 or 4 months. If I like you and we don’t have sex after several dates, I will still like you but will date you a lot less often.

If I like you and we do have sex, I am likely to bond to you. If I like you a lot, we’ll almost certainly be exclusive for as long as the relationship lasts.
Michelle 31

A man may want you; but does he want you enough to be exclusive first and committed to that exclusivity. Can he embrace your emotions as well as your body? You shouldn’t have to wonder who else he’s with or who the chatty Patty is that’s texting him.

A man may say he respects you; but does he respect you enough to honor you and make you number one, before he gets his physical needs met? His seeing additional women brings you no honor but shame.

A man may say he loves you; but does he love you enough to make you his one and only for the rest of his life? Or would he prefer to just shack up with you in the name of his undying love?

If not, then you know who you’re dealing with; and it’s entirely your call. Just don’t count on getting any more than your physical needs met.
Lila 32

A-L

I totally agree with your idea of dating multiple men. I do the same thing, it helps me to not obsess about one guy. Plus, I think it might up the odds of actually meeting someone compatible, and eliminates the problem of spending too much time with the wrong guy.

I have one guy who is all wrong for me as a booty call and several people that I continually date currently. It’s way easier this way, and if I meet someone with whom I know I undoubtedly share mutual interest, then I will commit but until then, forget it. I won’t waste my time anymore.
Anisa 33

I agree with Michelle.

What is not there before sex will also not be there after the sex.

And this: Many men want to sleep around with as many women as possible, because that seems to be man-ego-uplifting. But when it comes to LTR they prefer women who are virgin or practically virgin.

Isn’t that weird??
hunter 34

On post #32,

Lila has a good “system” going..hhmmmhh..
hunter 35

on post #33,

Not all men like virgins for a LTR…
hunter 36

to Anisa on post #26

I like what you said, “They lack the looks to catch a good looking woman.” hhhmmmhh, looks don’t matter if she, needs to be rescued, usually, financially…..OMG!…….
Anisa 37

I think this topic is fascinating.

To Milena (post # 25)

I think I am a little more optimistic than you. I believe that there are men who are not dogs. But you have to search very carefully for them, with a candle. And see the rest of them as victims. Victims of their own ego.

And I think maybe I agree with you about Evans point of view. Although I like to read his blog, in my opinion he shows more respect for the phisical needs of men and less for the emotional needs of the women. That’s a pity. But you can’t blame him…he is a man.
Cilla 38

It’s been my experience that very few of the men I’m attracted to are willing to date a woman for 3 or 4 months (or even weeks, if they’re seeing each other frequently) without sleeping with her. I use the 3-4 month time frame, because I think that’s minimally how long it takes to really get to know someone and broach the topic of exclusivity for most couples. It seems like around date 3, men give the “if you won’t sleep with me, I’ll find someone who will” speech, or you just never hear from them again. I assume this is because of the touted “three date rule” that many women used to espouse.

It’s nice to say that if a man won’t wait to sleep with you, he’s not worth dating, but this certainly seems to shrink the dating pool considerably, and it doesn’t sound realistic in today’s society.

I can find “nice,” but socially awkward and sexually inexperienced guys who are willing to wait as long as I want, but frankly, I’m a little out of their league, and I’m not interested in dating them.

Is there no middle ground? How about a sexually experienced guy who appreciates that I like sex too, but would prefer to wait a little to share it? Who understands waiting for sex is not blackmail or manipulation, just a little common sense? What happened to the old fashioned art of seduction and courting. I don’t think historically men were always able to gratify their “I want what I want in the moment” philosophy. Did the women’s liberation movement “screw the pooch” so to speak by making it too easy for men to skip the romance step?
Milena 39

To Anisa (post # 37)

I also believe that there are men who are not dogs but these man might not be compatible with me or there might not be any sparks in the air.
I would not call them victims I would call them dogs. I love dogs but a dog is only a dog. You cannot expect much from him. A good training might help, so you better pick up a breed that has a reputation for being smart. lol

I do not know and will never understand why Evan and the rest of male’s word justify their dishonesty. Why the physical needs of men are more important then emotional needs of the women?

What if woman started to lie to man in order to have womans’ emotional needs fulfill?
I can say to a guy yes we are in a relationship but at the same time I can be in other relationships with other man so all my emotional/other needs can be fulfill.

Man are aware that they hurt woman and their behavior is jerky. When it comes to their sisters, mothers, and daughters, all of sudden man can see very clearly that leading/lying in order to get sex is not cool and there is no justification for it.
Milena 40

To Cilla

It’s been your experience that very few of the men that you are attracted to are willing to date a woman for 3 or 4 months (or even weeks, if they’re seeing each other frequently) without sleeping with her.

What kind of guys do you like? and what do you mean frequently? like twice a week?
I do not think is so hard. Once I find a guy that I am attracted to and he is to me usually he is willing to wait. But I do not meet with them more then once or twice a week.
Anisa 41

Milena (post # 39)
THAT IS EXACTLY MY POINT !!!!!
I also think that Evan, because he is a man, likes to tell women that it is smart to compromise with the needs of the men. He is not that likely to teach men to consider the feelings and emotions of women. If he would do so I think no men would read his blog anymore. And it is a pity that many women are so insecure of themselves to act in the way a certain man prefer at a certain moment. Which is never contructive to their selfesteem. Men are allowed (encouraged) to do their “thing” and women are considered to modify their emotions and feelings and to brainwash theirselves to let things happen. Where is the balance??
Karl R 42

Anisa said: (#41)
“I also think that Evan, because he is a man, likes to tell women that it is smart to compromise with the needs of the men.”

I don’t think that’s the point Evan is trying to make.

Sunday night I was walking home from a jazz performance with a woman I’ve been dating for several weeks. During our conversation, I told her that thought she was cute and enjoyed spending time with her, but I didn’t expect our relationship to last over the long term because of the age difference between us. She responded, “I thought the same thing about the age difference, but I didn’t feel comfortable bringing up the topic.”

NEWS FLASH: I didn’t feel comfortable bringing up the topic either. I felt completely uncomfortable about bringing up the topic.

Following the conversation, she’s still interested in dating (non-exclusively), and she’s still interested in physical intimacy. Getting things out in the open allowed me to continue to enjoy her company, and continue to date women that might be better matches for LTRs, and maintain my integrity. All I had to do was bring up an uncomfortable topic of conversation. (However, I’m still worried that she might become too attached.)

Evan likes to tell women and men that they can’t control the other person in the relationship. If you want to know where things stand (or if you want your partner to know where things stand), you can’t wait for the other person to bring up the topic. You have to bring up the uncomfortable topic yourself.

Milena said: (#39)
“Man are aware that they hurt woman….”

This is not a fairy tale. People get hurt while dating — even when everyone has the best intentions and acts with integrity. I wasn’t very good at dating until I accepted the fact that I would get hurt repeatedly while dating. Once I decided that I could consciously take the risk of getting hurt, my dating life got much better.

The women I date are mature adults. I assume that they are fully capable of consciously choosing to take the same risks that I do. It would be nice if they never got hurt. But I accept the reality that they might. More importantly, I respect them enough to allow them to make that choice for themselves.
queen 43

So how are men supposed to navigate this space with any integrity?

Tell the truth… I want sex & fun for one night for a few weeks… or what have you… that would be how to navigate with integrity. Find women who are only interested in a fling. You will be rejected some of the time… (probably less than you should because many women have such low self esteem.)… and you deserve to be rejected by someone who really wants more than that.

Most intelligent women can tell when a man is lying about this anyway. Sex as a power play of this sort is boring at best. If all you’re offering is sex… without anything else… that’s not really much to offer. Remember… we are women… we can generally get sex much more easily than men can.

And the same goes for women, because men aren’t the only ones who behave this way… tell the truth.

Women… take back your sexual power… you have been beaten down by centuries of patriarchal oppression… you are the ones with the power. Don’t let men walk all over you. Demand what you want from them in a relationship and accept nothing less.
Anisa 44

Very well said Queen!

T Karl R: Just curious: how much was the woman older than you? Or was she much younger? and why should that be a problem?
Karl R 45

Anisa (#44),

The woman is 11 years younger than me. She’s in her late 20′s; I’m in my late 30′s. It’s not purely an age issue. We’re at different stages of our lives, and there are differences in our maturity levels. To give one example, she’s living with her parents. I haven’t lived with my parents in over 20 years.

Age isn’t necessarily an issue with that kind of age spread (in either direction), but the potential for it to be an issue is reasonably high … at least based on my past experiences. Among other things, the age difference created a power imbalance. The relationship wasn’t among equals (which is what I prefer). Either the older person had substantially greater influence over the relationship, or there was a perception that the older person had greater influence.
Michelle 46

” I accept the reality that they might. More importantly, I respect them enough to allow them to make that choice for themselves.”

…and to quote another famous player I know, “and what they do with their emotions is on them.”

Or perhaps better stated: As long as they are willing to put out, if their heart is getting torn in two, that is their problem, as long as I’m fine and getting my needs met! Is more like it!

What a crock…who needs communal cock or glock anyhow!
hunter 47

to Queen on post #43,

Really? A man can walk up to a woman and ask for a one night fling, and get one?……hhhmmmhh..LOL!…I don’t believe you…….If this statement were true, the marriage institution would no longer exist.
Milena 48

To Karl

I mean that man hurt woman intentionally, their are dishonest . They hide their real motives. It is acting without integrity.

I do not care if they want to have sex and fun that is fine but ling, misleading etc. is wrong.

Listen honey. woman and man accept the reality that might get hurt. In dating and other areas of life.

Life is risky almost every single activity involve risk to be hurt. I am not sure that I understood you. Are you giving man
a license to hurt others or act without any consideration or integrity just because ” being hurt” is a part of life.
hunter 49

Hi Michelle, on post #46

A famous player really said that?…..huh…Do you mean like, a successful(wealthy) player?………That kind will never bow to servitude in a relationship.
Karl R 50

Michelle: (#46)
Let me turn the situation around. Let’s say we meet online (it could happen) and start dating. After dating for a few weeks, I’ve decided that you’re wonderful and want a long-term relationship with you. But you’ve decided that I’m not really your type, and you’d rather not continue the relationship.

Under those circumstances, it’s likely that my feelings will be hurt when you break things off. Is it your fault if my “heart is getting torn in two”?

As long as you acted with integrity (i.e. you didn’t deceive me during the relationship and you weren’t malicious when you broke things off), I would say that my pain is not your fault.

You might feel bad that I got hurt (I certainly feel bad when a woman I’ve been dating gets hurt), but you can’t base your relationship decisions around that. Would you stay in a relationship with a man that you didn’t like just to avoid hurting his feelings? Would you avoid getting into a relationship in the first place to avoid the chance of hurting his feelings?

And if you even suspect that the person your dating is a player who has no regard for your emotions, don’t “put out”.

—————–

Milena: (#46)
I think my above comments pretty much answered your question, and it sounds like we basically agree on that point.

To put it explicitly, I’d like to see everyone act with integrity, but I recognize some people won’t. There’s nothing I can do about that.

Regarding “permission” in this sort of circumstance, I had to give a couple of my ex-girlfriends my permission to stop feeling guilty that I might have gotten hurt when they broke things off with me. (Their guilt lasted a lot longer than my pain.)
Karl R 51

hunter said: (#47)
“Really? A man can walk up to a woman and ask for a one night fling, and get one?”

Yes, men can do it. The technique is called shotgunning. Walk around a bar and ask enough women to have sex with you, and one of them will say yes. The better looking you are, the fewer the number of women you’ll need to ask. If you’re a 6 or lower in the looks department, this might not work for you.

Regardless of your looks, you will get slapped by some of the women.

“LOL! I don’t believe you.If this statement were true, the marriage institution would no longer exist.”

You think people get married in order to have sex? A well known comedian said, “Getting married for sex is like buying an airplane for free peanuts. If that’s what you want, there’s cheaper ways to get it.”
hunter 52

to Karl,

Yes, I have heard women say most single men are a 6 and lower.

On the second response, how true!….I have heard that almost 30% of marriages are sexless…..
Anisa 53

to Hunter,

It seems to me that you can not see the difference between sex and love. I wonder why you are so very cynic and pessimistic about this issue.
If you don’t believe in life lasting bond between a man and a woman based on love and trust, I doubt you will find it.
But it seems to me you are not looking for that or have you give up hope already?
hunter 54

Anisa, aaahhh, you are a sweetheart……. I am like the parrot, I only repeat what I hear. I mean, what do I know?…..
Anisa 55

to Hunter,

May I quote you?

#13: Your two friendships won’t get complicated, until, you have sex with them.
#19: I don’t think they earn time in the sack, that is why they are called nice guys.
#24: ..usually the married women that need to be financially rescued(and who wants one of those?) or if they are single, in a much smaller pool of availability.if things were as you say, we wouldn’t hear herds of single men howling in the streets at 2:00a.m., on weekends, after the bars close..
#36: looks don’t matter if she, needs to be rescued, usually, financially..
#47: I don’t believe you.If this statement were true, the marriage institution would no longer exist.
#49: Do you mean like, a successful(wealthy) player? That kind will never bow to servitude in a relationship.
#52: I have heard that almost 30% of marriages are sexless..
…………….
So, I don’t think this is just a parrot repeating. This is someone who “knows” a lot and has a strong (and also cynic and pessimistic)opinion. And who also has a very conspicuous way to look at women and relationships.

But maybe this is too personal for this discussion.
Michelle 56

Karl R (#50),

To answer your question in earnest, no I would not stay in a relationship not hurt a guys feelings.

Neither would I start that relationship by talking about being married, and telling him he was different from any other guy I ever knew. I wouldn’t tell him I thought he was gonna be married, and ask him where he might like to spend his honeymoon?

I wouldn’t show up to his church, sign up for classes there. Go on long walks, bike rides, picnics, and have repeated tender all night embracing intimate sex with him. Then once he told me he loved me, inform he I am doing two other guys and only wanted FWB, knowing full well he would do anything for me at this point.

Then once he agreed (which perhaps a guy even in love would never do), however bare with me…Once he agreed I couldn’t let things go on knowing he was completely in love with me, just as much as the other two guys I was doing and continue to live in my own skin!

You see girls don’t just put out…they usually get sucked in once they are emotionally hooked and physically addicted to the oxytocin or whatever. Then there’s that crazy little thing called love, that can make you do anything for that person. Only those who have been there know what I am talking about.

I am just glad I finally woke up fro the 2yr. spell I was under and
am able to see a brighter future and a better day!

Hunter(#49) I’m sorry I should have said ‘infamous’, or ‘notorious’~but definitely not wealthy!
Robin 57

Comment: Michelle #56

Girlriend! You have hit the proverbial nail on the HEAD! I had the same sh*t happen to me as you have described. I was devastated. HELLO! Did that f**ker need to start telling me after one month that he was in love with me? Hell, no. I told him to stop, but NO, that a-hole was on a mission to suck me in. After a while, you are right, the whole oxywhatsis kicks in and our own DNA just screws us over. Is there a way to override that crap? Cause if so, I want a prescription! LOL. I love you Michelle, you’re hysterical!
Michelle 58

Comment:ROBIN (#57)

His name didn’t happen to be Greg did it?
Because sure enough one of the other two girls i mentioned was named Robin!….Hmmm???
Robin 59

Comment: Michelle #58

No, you can rest your mind…I was the hapless victim of another one named Robert. The place is just littered with ‘em girlfriend… LOL
Michelle 60

Comment: Robin (#59)

Good 2 know!~Lol I believe Robin is still under the oxytocin spell anyhow!

As far as the litter situation is concerned, I believe they must all subscribe to the same narcissistic manual! All I can say is ladies wanting a relationship keep your wits about you from the jump, and call them on the exclusivity clause (before hand) or no dice. Then stand your ground no matter what or walk away (or should I say RUN)~ if need be!!
Lynn 61

In Response to Michelle from Comment #60,

In a way, I agree with you when you say, ” . . . . ladies wanting a relationship keep your wits about you from the jump, and call them on the exclusivity clause (before hand) or no dice.”

But I think it’s really hard to ask for exclusivity if a couple has only dated 3 or 4 times. Then one might think, better to hold off on the sexual intimacy, until everyone is comfortable with exclusivity, but I don’t think this is necessarily effective either. Seems like there is an element of “gambling” on a guy to see if he works out to be relationship material.
hunter 62

to anisa on #55,

Cynic and pessimistic? OMG!………..Conspicuous…..hhmmmhh…..I used to have an instant response for almost anything I heard,,,,when I was a teenager…
Michelle 63

To Lynn (#61)

I don’t care how many times you dated. If he starts wanting to get down to business and become sexually intimate, you have every right to put your prerequisites out on the table. It’s a matter of speak now or forever hold your peace…believe me!

I am saying if you choose to go ahead and be intimate with a man, before making exclusivity the prerequisite, you loose all bartering chips! I waited till afterwards to say I won’t share, and he knew that was a joke!-Trust me I said NEVER and I learned the hard way: NEVER say NEVER, because you just don’t know what you’re capable of till you’re there!

Anyhow the only way to for a man to show he wants you (and only you) as bad as he says, is to make him prove it first! That includes making sure he deletes all the chics numbers in his cell phone, and and his exes are really his exes and his friends are not all women with benefits.

If a guy really wants you as bad as he says, trust me those gals need 2 be history, or you’ll just wind up another one of them, who he either disrespects or recycles, or he’ll walk all over you and won’t take you seriously. And you will be so strung out on oxytocin you wont’ be able to do jack, and you’ll only be fighting an uphill battle to get him to see the light, which ain’t ever gonna happen. Feel me?
JuJu 64

That’s some dogmatic thinking.
Honey 65

@Michelle (#63): the problem with telling a guy that he has to take the gamble and cut all other women out of his life completely (while you apparently watch him delete numbers from his cell phone, which seems a little over the top and potentially psychotic to me, as I’m sure it would to most men) before you’ll sleep with him, is that it’s really no different from him asking you to take a gamble and sleep with him before the exclusivity talk before he’ll cut those other women out of his life. As long as both parties are being so rigid, no one’s ever going to find anything out.

It seems to me that the appropriate compromise is a) the woman gives up a little bit on her perspective by not attaching so much meaning to the first few months of the relationship, regardless of whether it’s sexual, and b) the man gives up a little bit on his perspective by using a condom until everyone’s been tested 3-6 months after you HAVE agreed to become exclusive. The way you suggest is only going to lead to him thinking you’re crazy or you ending up with a doormat. Neither really appeals to me.
Michelle 66

Honey (#65)

I am only advocating for those who are looking for a relationship that is connected and functional and not just at the pelvis.

A guy usually pushes for sex and doesn’t spend enough time exploring the actual potential relationship. As long as both parties are having hot sex on a regular basis, no one is gonna find out much that way either, except how much they enjoy the thrill of titanic chemistry!

As far as the cell phone thing goes: How can a woman take a guy seriously who is texting and talking to other women in her presence, and who maintains emotionally intimate (and/or sexual) relationships with other women. Is it so irrational (or psycho) to insist he sever all ties if he wants her to take him seriously, and not just spread her legs for the sake of exploration?

BTW. Condoms can slip off inside and/or break, in case you’ve never had the experience (not too appealing)! And neither does it appeal to me to have to get tested for STD’s in 3-6 month as you describe.
Honey 67

Michelle (66), I’m just wondering what his incentive is to trust you if you’re assuming the worst about him from the beginning? And even if you and the guy decide to be exclusive, you need to get tested before you decide to be exclusive and again 3-6 months in anyway, and once a year after that. That’s just taking care of your health.

I guess the thing I am reacting negatively too is treating an individual guy (that you like and are thinking about committing to) like an entire group of slimeball guys (who aren’t even in the majority anyway). More guys are nice than not. More guys will respect your decision than not. I think you can achieve the results you want in a playful, productive way that isn’t so bitter and confrontational.

I had sex with my boyfriend on our first date and he never went on another one! We are over 2.5 years in, living together and saving for a wedding. That never would have happened if I had acted in the way you describe.
JuJu 68

Michelle and others,

your convictions do not demonstrate power, only weakness.

Any attempt at control is always a manifestation of frailty of one’s psyche.
Robin 69

Comment: JuJu #68

I really like your comment JuJu.

If I could add to that, I would say, more specifically, that any attempt to control another person’s actions comes from a place of fear, not a place of love or inspiration, and therefore is doomed to failure.

When a person is very confident in who they are, they don’t have a need to control anyone. And anyway, the only thing we can truly control is our our behavior.

Pick friends and lovers who lift you up emotionally. That’s the way to get more confident. Then you will fly. You will have no more use for these kind of low-vibrational creatures anymore. LOL
Michelle 70

I do not try to control anyone’s actions. I only set healthy boundaries for myself and make sure they are respected by others. However, I no longer allow anyone to manipulate my emotions. I am not fearful or bitter, just wiser from the wear. I live my life with arms wide open and my motto is always the best is yet to come!
Anisa 71

If women would respect each other and each others opinion a little more, it would help also.
I don’t like the judging part in Juju’s 68:”…. demonstrate only weakness.” and “….. is always a manifestation of frailty of one’s psyche.
I think it is Michelle’s experience and her point of view. I think she has a point.
Very few men are likely t o commit, in general. Most of the free guys are free because they are not likely to commit. And they will not commit because the quality of the sex. If they get the sex without commitment they have even less reasons to commit.
Honey was lucky. Her partner was a guy who was willing and ready to commit anyway. Not because of the sex.
It is always a combination of the true intentions and the chemistry.
Honey 72

I agree with JuJu and Robin. Being wary of the motives of others is different from trying to exert pre-emptive control over someone when you do not yet have a right or expectation to do so.
hunter 73

To anisa on post #71,

I think you left out of your list two types of men that don’t commit, the type that is just simply, “uninformed”. Herds of men were never told about their sexuality.(some head shrinks don’t know how to handle this kind, really….) Also how about the kind that was traumatized as a youngster, disabling/emotionally paralyzing/castrating him emotionally, as an adult.
JuJu 74

Thanks for the support, guys. =)

BTW, Robin, your “heart of glass” comment in another thread made me recall this quote, how we treat our bodies so destructively, yet are ever so protective of our feelings – the one thing that can never get sick, deteriorate, break, or die.
hunter 75

“so protective of our feelings, the one thing that can never get sick, deteriorate, break or die.” What an interesting statement. I have to write this in my book of “quotes”.
Anisa 76

Oke Hunter (post 73), now we are talking! (and post 75)
I always wondered: Why are so many “self-coaching” books written for women, while men are also (maybe even more) in need for “reparation”?
A young woman told me a while ago: “the fact is: a woman can repeatedly recover after a broken-heart. But men…..their heart can break only once ……..”
vino 77

Jeeze Louise, I’m not going to quantify the number of comments above, but the overall tone of this thread is that men are so inferior for not approaching things as women do.

Perhaps neither paradigm is right. Perhaps neither is wrong. But assuming your way is the only way in this arena seems a bit limiting (and potentially very off putting).

OTOH, it’s nice to see some acknowledging dating for the bartering transaction it’s historically been…
hunter 78

on post #76

Some men are crushed after getting out of a relationship.(some won’t bare their soul, while in a relationship)
Anisa 79

So many men, proudly claiming to be a hunter.
In fact, they are a victim ………
starthrower68 80

Oh this is rich, LOL! Adultfriend finder is too sleazy, but keeping one’s mouth shut to get laid is just “being in the moment”? Listen guys, I truly don’t mean that as a dig, because they are plenty of disingenuous women out there, too. What I am saying is a woman is wise to take what a guy says with a grain of salt until she sees action that backs it up. Like Evan says in another post, don’t do anything. Sit back and see what he does. Ladies, you are in no way obligated to have sex with a man if you don’t want to. And if he rejects you for it, it’s his problem NOT YOURS!
starthrower68 81

I will step out on the proverbial “limb” and agree with vino on the point he makes about “assuming your way is the only way” correct, even though that is a reality we don’t really like to face. I know I’m not Evan and I’m not the dating coach, but ladies, I want to get across that you do have power; is it to change him? No. Does power mean it always goes your way? Nope. Wisdom is knowledge and knowledge is power. Anytime a dating situation doesn’t go the way you want it to, you are free to leave it. Look, I’m not being critical; I’ve done what a lot of women do. Real power comes in accepting you can’t change someone but knowing you have the freedom to walk away from that which you do not believe is good for you.
starthrower68 82

This subject is so fascinating to me that I keep coming back to it because I’ve been mulling it over and I keep getting these little revelations. I go back to Robin’s #2 post. While I understand the spirit of the question, what’s to change? Women are relational creatures, and the desire to love a man and be loved by a man is a legitimate desire. Yes, we do need them which is why God created them. But like all things, it’s to be approached with wisdom. Proverbs 4:23 says, “keep thy heart with all diligence for out of it are the issues of life”. Realize that while we love men, the real “meat and potatoes” of life are our relationships with our families and friends. That is the first place to turn for our emotional and relational needs. Am I saying that men are irrevelant? Absolutely not. But until you know his intentions, guard your hearts. You can be warm and open while still being self-protective. It about balance.
hunter 83

on post #79

Oh, yes, we are victims…….we are only tough on the outside……OMG!….
Anisa 84

And what do victims do? ………
They make victims …….
starthrower68 85

RE: 83 84: LOL! Play nice kids!

I what Evan says that man feels like he’s in a “Catch 22″ when it comes to looking for sex and finding love and men are just being in the moment. We can spend countless hours refuting the morality or the logic of it, which is pointless because it won’t change. And it is equally true that women face the same thing. On the one hand, if she does not agree to sex without exclusivity, that situation will probably not go anywhere. On the other hand, if she does agree, she will probably lose the man’s respect for compromising, being seen as easy, needy, or whatever. So, the $64 is how reconcile the differences.
starthrower68 86

That would be “I see what Evan says” and “$64 thousand dollar question” . I thought I had proofread that well enough. I must be tired from staying up working on my paper.
hunter 87

OMG!………
hunter 88

Starthrower on post #81

You said, “Wisdom is knowledge and knowledge is power”. Many times I wonder if r’ships are all about “knowledge/Information”……hhhmmh.
Anisa 89

To react on your “wondering”, Hunter:

It is all about knowledge about chemistry, DNA, your self-esteem, your history, expectations, risks, morals, ego’s(!), weaknesses, strenghts, humanity, energy’s, motivation, responsibility (!), wishes, desires, dreams, common sense, persistence, Mars, Venus, etc. etc. etc….. too much for one lifetime.

and please don’t react with “OMG!…..”
Kenley 90

I re-read the question and Evan’s answer, and I realized that a lot of men — not all — do tell women what they want — through both words and actions. I think many women just ignore what they don’t like.
Seductress Within 91

Kenley, you’re right. Some women do ignore the verbal and non-verbal messages men send thinking they can change his feelings or turn something casual into something serious.

Anytime a woman begins a dating situation with sex she must assume it is casual and expect nothing more. If she’s pleasantly surprised, great.

The problem is that a woman’s feelings become engaged when she is sexual and she starts to look for validation that she is special and not just a lay.
End result, the guy feels her edging toward a relationship and runs. And no matter how much a woman tells herself that she’s cool with hooking up, it never feels good to share your body with men and then get dumped.

It’s simple-Don’t have sex so soon if you want a relationship…
starthrower68 92

Kenley & Seductress,

You both make very good points. It’s difficult to remain objective once a situation reaches that point. I’m not saying it can’t be done but it’s not easy.

To respond to Hunter, I would say at the early stages, a woman is smart to keep things in an “information gathering” stage. That’s not to say attraction isn’t an element, but a wise woman will not get carried away with that.
starthrower68 93

BTW, Hunter, what I mean by “information gathering” phase is not that she grills him like its the Spanish Inquisition. She should learn by observation.
hunter 94

“The problem is that a woman’s feelings become engaged when she is sexual”…..very true, only, some of us we call that marriage. A woman marries/bonds when she is sexual.
hunter 95

to Anisa on post #89,

Do you really think men define their relationships to that extent?….LOL!….isn’t it more like, oh, I might want to say, hhhmmh, let’s see, it all starts with an erection(chemistry),,,he, he, ehe,… not that it’s all about sex, oh no, or does it begin with attraction, or is that all in the same category?……hhmmmhhh, can men really think past that?…..eeeeeeehhh!…OMG!..
Michelle 96

Post 85 (starthrower68): Yep exactly! Darned if you do and darned if you don’t., but we can always say they weren’t worth it anyway!

Post 91 (Seductress Within): Well said. I agree, but it’s still good to have enough confidence in yourself to know you determine how special you are.

The guy is either ready and wants a relationship or doesn’t. I think we run into trouble the minute we turn to someone else for validation. I am a lot stronger now because I realized I determine my worth and value and not anyone else.
starthrower68 97

Michelle, you are spot on. A wise woman will also turn to her friends and family to get her emotional and relational needs filled so that she not dependent on a romantic relationship. Again, not saying men aren’t wanted or needed. It just helps her stay grounded so that she too may remain in the moment.
Elizabeth 98

a real man will explicitly say he doesn’t know how he’ll feel the next morning after sex. that way there will be no confusion. all that staying silent bs is what causes sh%t to hit the fan. stop being selfish and tell the whole truth because you will be the first one complaining that you have a stalker! men do the right thing!
starthrower68 99

LOL! Elizabeth, your point is well taken, and I understand the spirit with which your comment is made. But if I guy won’t do the righ thing, the hell with stalking him! If he’s a creep, I’ll put as much distance between him and myself as possible!
Anisa 100

I wonder if this is the topic with the most posts. That means something don’t you think?
So what does it means?
Sayanta 101

“Did the women’s liberation movement screw the pooch so to speak by making it too easy for men to skip the romance step?”

Cilla- this is brilliant. You hit the nail on the head. My consolation is, things will balance out. I hope.

I mean- look at all those dating sites that have men looking only for “Hang Out” or “Intimate Encounter”? WTF??
I’m one of those very very very few American females who refuse to have sex outside of a committed relationship. Yeah- I know the male post-ers here are laughing at that one. Oh well.

I figure I’ll just start going overseas to get dates eventually.
hunter 102

Sayanta, “one of few american females?”…. you have plenty of company, because every saturday night I go to restaruants, I see herds of good looking women having dinner with other women.
vino 103

Re: post 101

“Did the women’s liberation movement screw the pooch so to speak by making it too easy for men to skip the romance step?

Cilla- this is brilliant. You hit the nail on the head. My consolation is, things will balance out. I hope.”"

- I understand the sentiment, but ‘that horse left the corral’ so to speak. It’s like men asking where are all of the June Cleavers of today? Both are casualties of society’s change. Question is what do you do but accept that change?

Another twist… coupled with the backdrop that men do not need to commit for sex anymore (used to have to MARRY for it), and that there are plenty of available partners, consider the power angle. That, by submitting to the demand he commit to a woman, he turns the bus driving of the relationship over to her. Most guys I know feel that’d be the short bus to happiness…and choose otherwise. Just a thought…
starthrower68 104

Sayanta, you may actually be part of a “silent majority” of women. I mean, I’m not even going to have sex outside of marriage, so I’m really out of luck! I do think, however, there are enough women out there who will have sex without the commitment – hoping to get a guy to commit – that alot of men just sort of expect that now. And as long as there are enough women out there willing to make that compromise, there’s no reason for men to do anything different. I figure I’m better off to hold on to my code of conduct. It will weed out the ones that would never have respected or valued me anyway.
Anisa 105

I agree so much with Starthrower68.
The laugh is: the more you are comfortable and happy with that situation, living by the code, you are going to be so much the more desirable for those men ….. They will finally respect a woman although they will be having a not-fullfilling “relationship” with someone else.
And then it is a pity that they don’t know anymore how to approach and pick up a respectable woman like you ………..
Because they want it all …… and they want it for free …..
Kenley 106

Are we actually saying that “easy” women are to blame for men not committing to “respectable” women? Wow. Is there anything that isn’t the woman’s fault as far as relationships are concerned?
Sayanta 107

To StartThrower 68 (post #104)

“Sayanta, you may actually be part of a silent majority of women. I mean, I’m not even going to have sex outside of marriage, so I’m really out of luck!”

LOL- you know what- I’m glad you wrote this. I had that same “Problem” (for lack of another term) for a long time. I just didn’t want to come out and say it on this blog. I say ‘had’ because it’s gone from marriage to just commitment for me. I should note, though, this doesn’t mean I advocate being a total prude before committment. You just have to get a little…creative on dates, that’s all.

I also think that some men MAY get weirded out because they think women who think the way we do might be religious freaks.
It has absolutely nothing to do with religion for me.

The main (only) reason I’m sticking to my commitment rule is because I don’t want to be on the Pill. Or on any kind of hormonal contraceptive methods. I’ve seen how badly this stuff has messed up my friends’ bodies, and I’m staying away. The fact that I’m a total greenie (one who DOES shave her legs and shop on 3rd Ave boutiques) has a lot to do with it too. And to all the women here, doesn’t it seem unfair that WE have to take all the health risks (and even if you do fine on the Pill, there are ALWAYS risks) and guys don’t have to worry about stroke, cancer, etc. just from having sex?

And yeah yeah, lots of women use barrier methods instead, but condoms break easy and diaphragms don’t have that high of an efficiency rate, and I’m guessing a guy who beds you on the third date isn’t going to be sticking around to pay child support.

There are natural birth control methods (NOT the Rhythm method, which is bullshit anyway) which have a 99% efficiency rate, since a woman is not fertile every day of the month. But the thing is, these methods can work best if you’re in a committed relationship, since the guy can’t just get it when he wants it, but has to wait until the woman is in her non-fertile phase…anyway, I digress. Sorry if this got too X-rated- I’m very- um, passionate about the birth control topic as you can tell.

Vino #103-
“…That, by submitting to the demand he commit to a woman, he turns the bus driving of the relationship over to her.”

Point taken. At the same time, if a woman gives it up before she wants to, SHE’s given the steering wheel to him. This isn’t true for every woman, but a lot. So, what’s the compromise?

Anisa #105
“Because they want it all and they want it for free..”

Amen sister!!! I say we call a strike. LOL
hunter 108

Men are cheap, if it is free, most men will take it.
Sayanta 109

Oh- one more thing, while I’m all riled up.

I know plenty of women who’ve given it up on the second and third date only to later have the guy completely ignore her or treat her like a piece of trash. I honestly think men do not understand how devastating this is for a woman. Their conquest is over, so they move on. She’s heartbroken, in the mean time.

And then you have women like me and startthrower68- I don’t know about you, starthrower68, but finding a boyfriend with my committment rule isn’t exactly a piece of cake. So, you have the girls who’ve given it up early to please a guy who end up with the guy acting like a jerk, and then girls like me who are the oddballs out in American society.

It seems like women are losing out in the ‘relationship’ game no matter what road they choose.
vino 110

Anisa’s #105 –

“Because they want it all and they want it for free.”

When one barters their sex like it’s something to sell on ebay, a smart shopper will pay the least.

Sayanta’s #107 –

“At the same time, if a woman gives it up before she wants to, SHE’s given the steering wheel to him. This isn’t true for every woman, but a lot. So, what’s the compromise?”

- Actually, she isn’t giving the steering wheel over. Carrot & stick. She controls her own body, no? (See previous posts) She can at any time choose not to, even after ‘doing it’ one, twice, etc… I can say with reasonable certainty that when you let a guy know you will give it up when you are damn good & ready (ie. – doling out sex like like it’s the biggest favor to him, keeping control), he’s less likely to stay around, nor should he.
Sayanta 111

“I can say with reasonable certainty that when you let a guy know you will give it up when you are damn good & ready (ie. – doling out sex like like it’s the biggest favor to him, keeping control), he’s less likely to stay around, nor should he.”

So- women should basically grant men sexual favors whenever the man wants and not think about herself at all. Dear Christ, what has this society come to?
hunter 112

On post #107

Try and stay away from the 99 cent condoms, they fit very tight, and make the blood in your body rush to your ears and it makes your ears swell.
starthrower68 113

To Kenley #106, no the point is not that all relationship problems are the fault of women. It’s not even a judgement on women who will have sex before commitment. The point is, if all a man is looking to do in the first place is find sex, and he can take the path of least resistance to obtain what he seeks, he will.

To Vino, #103, I disagree with the notion that the woman who resists sex before commitment takes over control of the relationship. If a man wants sex, doesn’t want to commit, and she won’t sleep with him, he has two options: he stays or he goes. HE is free to make that choice. As matter of fact, HE can still choose to leave, even if she does have sex with him before commitment.
starthrower68 114

Santaya, in response to your post on #109, I’ve said before and I’ll say again, based on different posts by Evan, if a woman will not have sex before commitment, she’ll probably be dumped. On the other hand, if she has sex before commitment, then a guy will probably lose respect for her and leave. Of course there are always exceptions, but my believe for myself is, if I never have a romantic relationship or sex again, then that’s just how it’s going to be. I don’t have to live with the guy who dumps me because I won’t have sex before marriage but I do have to live with me. I’m sure that the way the world is today, I’m looked at as foolish for that mindset. LOL! But you know, I’m ok with that. It doesn’t bother me a bit!
Kenley 115

The fact of the matter is that millions of men commit to women every single day under many different circumstances — some have sex on the first date; some on the third date, and some after 3 months. The fact that some of us on this blog are having a difficult time finding the man/relationship we want does not make it accurate to say that men don’t commit to women because they do, and a lot of them marry women. I think it is really a defeatist attitude to think that men are unwilling to make connections.
Seductress Within 116

#110
“(ie. – doling out sex like like it’s the biggest favor to him, keeping control), he’s less likely to stay around, nor should he.”

If her intent is a game of manipulation and she USES sex either by giving it OR witholding it, then yes, if I were a man, I’d bail too.

But there is a difference between the above and a woman who doesn’t use sex, but rather just follows her own values regarding it to protect her own heart and body.

Seductress Within´s last blog post…Do Women Eat on Dates?
vino 117

Re: Saytana’s #111-

“So- women should basically grant men sexual favors whenever the man wants and not think about herself at all. Dear Christ, what has this society come to?”

- I feel compelled to point out that Syatana either missed or ignored my mention of carrot & stick and choosing not to immediately preceding the quote she used, which places the quote out of context, distorting what I stated.

Re: Star’s #113 – You may disagree that by ‘resisting’ (I hope the implication is not that he’s ‘pushing’ like some animal) a woman takes control, but then go on to describe a situation where she makes the 1st choice to give him a choice, thereby setting the ground rules…Commit first or no lovin’ for Mr. Man. In other words, she controls things.

Re: Seductress’ #116

“But there is a difference between the above and a woman who doesn’t use sex, but rather just follows her own values regarding it to protect her own heart and body.”

- While I don’t disagree with the statement, it doesn’t cover the situation where the sex or lack thereof IS being used as a manipulation, but under the guise of ‘following her own values’ to ‘protect’ her heart & body. This is far more pernicious, and I suspect more widespread than most would mention.

It also places guys in an poor position indeed, playing on their sense of honor (which most have, contrary to their usual portrayal)… On the one hand, if it IS a manipulation, she doesn’t respect him & he’s a henpecked fool. If he calls b.s. on it, it’s all too easy to call him a d-bag animal that only wants some tail. I can safely say that every guy I’ve talked to has faced this situation, as have I.

Faced with 2 such poor choices, most guys I know would rather be called a sex-crazed jerk in that situation. After all, we’re called that all the time anyway…cause or no.
Sayanta 118

To Starthrower-

“Santaya, in response to your post on #109, I’ve said before and I’ll say again, based on different posts by Evan, if a woman will not have sex before commitment, she’ll probably be dumped. On the other hand, if she has sex before commitment, then a guy will probably lose respect for her and leave. ”

Well- I agree with you there. That’s pretty much the last line of my other post. American women are losing out big time in this relationship business.

Kenley- post #115

You’ve got a good point- you’re definitely more optimistic than I am. But that’s my New Year’s res- change my mindset!

I think the basic human tendency is to generalize based on what we’ve seen in our personal lives. Add the media to that for our generation. If you watch any old TV show, it would seem that 12 year olds are getting more action than I am- and that men are basically lounge lizards, etc.

If a woman’s met supportive, decent men all her life and had good relationships, her mindset toward the opposite sex will be positive. Aside from a couple of family members, I haven’t met men who genuinely care about the women in their lives.

My birth control argument is a perfect example- an acquaintance of mine had a stroke at age 28 from her Pill- do you think any of the men she slept with cared? THey just went on their merry way sleeping with the rest of the city while she lay in the hospital. It’s sad how so few men have compassion. But anyway…I digress.

I guess the key is to have as many experiences as possible and let them color your life, hopefully for the better.
Sayanta 119

You know what- I retract the compassion thing. Just because a guy who burns a woman one minute can also be rescuing people from burning buildings the next.
Cilla 120

Seductress Within makes a good point, as does Kenley. There is a happy medium somewhere that allows women not to have sex when they are uncomfortable with it and men not to be manipulated by this choice. Kenley hit the nail on the head by saying it’s really just a matter of finding the right partner who feels the same way you do. And that can change at different times in your life, even within a short period of time or depending on whom you are dating. The same woman (or man) who wants to wait with one partner may feel like sleeping with someone else earlier in their dating process. It’s a matter of getting expectations on the same page no matter what choice you make and being willing to live with the consequences.

I’ll give you something to think about from another perspective that runs contrary to that of most women posting here. I should note I am 47 with a long dating history and a marriage in the middle. I have waited to sleep with men until we were in a committed relationship and I have also slept with men within a few dates. In some of the latter cases, we hit it off and had relationships that lasted months or even years. Clearly the sex did not get in the way of him calling me again.

In another recent instance, I slept with a man on the first date. We met online and had had a long wooing process because of our schedules, him living a few hours away, etc. During the date I debated about sleeping with him (thinking the decision might come up), in part because of some of the discussion generated here (kudos, Evan). But the date had gone well, and I felt like we had exchanged enough information about wanting a long term relationship that I was comfortable taking it to the next step. Well let me tell you: the sex was so horrible I was immensely relieved I had NOT insisted on a committed relationship first. This was not a case of taking a few sessions to educate each other about our preferences, etc. He was just plain selfish in bed, and untalented to boot! I never would have known this until we had been intimate, no matter how many dates and deep conversations we had. Had I insisted on an exclusive relationship first, it just would have made it harder for me to stop seeing him without it getting messy. Sometimes NOT waiting is the best decision, for a variety of reasons.
Sayanta 121

Cilla-

You make a good point- it’s something I have to wrestle with myself, considering my stance on hormonal contraceptive methods. At the same time, it would majorly suck to wait and then end up hating the sex. What to do…
Seductress Within 122

Vino,

“it doesn’t cover the situation where the sex or lack thereof IS being used as a manipulation, but under the guise of following her own values to protect her heart & body.”

Sure, but honestly, I tend not to feel sorry for the man in this situation any more than I feel sorry for the woman who is dealing with the man who promises her love, devotion, marriage, a white picket fence and things she’s never even heard of (as a manipulation) to get into her pants.

Men and women alike are responsible for taking care of themselves. I refuse to believe that either one is victimized more or at all by the other sex.

It doesn’t take very long to discover that someone is gaming you in this area or any area if you pay attention, follow your gut, watch to see if the person’s actions and words follow a consistent thread throughout all of their behavior…

Ultimately men and women must be true to themselves in relationships and regarding sex- should never *use* it for any selfish reason.

Seductress Within´s last blog post…Do Women Eat on Dates?
Anisa 123

Vino @ post 110
I am not talking about bartering. I am talking about responsibilities. Over de centuries women take too much care for men and too little for themselves. It’s now time to do so. Because men are not likely to take care for another person or for another persons feelings. They are too spoiled. They want to take without giving.
…….and sex is never for free. Somebody is paying!
starthrower68 124

To Vino #117, I suppose you and I are going to have to disagree on this one. I’m not talking about a man pushing for sex like an animal. I’m willing to concede that by sticking to the values I’ve set for myself, I’m setting a boundary with the guy, but I’m not controlling what he DOES in response to the boundary I set. Now, are there some women that use sex as a weapon? Of course there are, and there are no doubt plenty of women who are being manipulative under the guise of self-protection. I’ve never denied that, and I’m smart enough to know that there are exceptions to every generalization. And listen, while I’ve said that I will wait for marriage, to be quite honest, I realize I’m as susceptible to giving in as anyone. I admit, it is easy for me to sit here and say I don’t care, I’m sticking to my guns, because I’m not involved with anyone. I hope that I can stick to my values, but should the moment arise, I may very well do something else. And just so you don’t think I’m purposely being disagreeable and trying to bash men, I can understand the points you make. I just happen to believe that there is a difference between controlling a situation and setting a boundary.
vino 125

Star,

I can say with certainty I see your point. I think we agree that often, both sexes don’t bring the most altruistic motives and actions to the table.

I do think that, practically speaking, women do have greater control. They can always say no. BTW, there are enough stories of falsely accused date rape etc. (Duke Lacrosse famously comes to mind), that any guy with 2 brain cells to rub together should know that if she says no, respect it & get the hell out of there, lest you face jail. This is why I say that women have greater control.

One of the things I seek to point out in this thread that as a guy, it is exceedingly difficult to determine if the sex or lack thereof is being used as a weapon or manipulation. The point being that to the guy more often than not, he can’t tell if you are being true to your values or manipulating him. If he can’t tell, then the safest choice for him is to assume it is a game where he’s being played, and leave for his own protection.

It’s easy to paint him as only out for sex, and bailing b/c he didn’t get any, but when you’ve been the guy who’s been manipulated in that situation, usually more than once, it’s only reasonable to change your behavior for your own good.

Re: Anisa’s #123 –

“I am not talking about bartering. and sex is never for free. Somebody is paying!”

Holy contradiction, Batman!

Anisa, I don’t want to pick a fight with you, but as a guy reading your post 123, I can tell you that it’s entire content is a HUGE disincentive for men to date, if that’s what they find. I can further say that many guys have run across it, and have removed themselves from the dating pool as they do not want to deal with it.
Sayanta 126

“I can further say that many guys have run across it, and have removed themselves from the dating pool as they do not want to deal with it.”

Just curious- so what do these men do? Switch teams?
vino 127

Re: #126

They do other things. They work more, furthering careers. They spend more time with hobbies, whether those hobbies be fly fishing, reading, volunteer work, triathlons, etc. They spend time with their friends. They do what makes them happy. In short, they do other things that enrich their lives other than devote their time, effort, and money to fruitlessly chasing women.

– Something to keep in mind when you hear the tired refrain of “Where have all the good men gone?”
Anisa 128

Vino
If you want to see a contradiction you will find it.
But I hope you understand that I am saying that a man can think he is going to pay the least (a smart shopper will pay the least (your post 110)) is in fact making the woman pay. (and then I mean: emotionally)

And @ post 125 “if that is what they find” My question: if they find…what??
“and have removed themselves from the dating pool as they do not want to deal with it.”
My question to you: to deal with what??
If they find and have to deal with women who take good care of themselves in the first place???
The Seductress Within 129

Vino,
“it is exceedingly difficult to determine if the sex or lack thereof is being used as a weapon or manipulation. The point being that to the guy more often than not, he can’t tell if you are being true to your values or manipulating him. If he can’t tell, then the safest choice for him is to assume it is a game where he’s being played, and leave for his own protection.”

So you are saying that because it’s difficult for a man to tell if he is being manipulated by both the woman who has sex and by the one who doesn’t, it’s safer to assume they both are and bail out completely?

It seems he’s cutting off his nose to spite his face. Unless all he wants is sex in which case, if woman A doesn’t give in he can bail and go find someone who will and when women B will screw him, he can bail as well and go find the next one to do it with.
If that is his only goal, then that is a good strategy.

However, what if he really wants to find a relationship? Could it be possible to give her the benifit of the doubt until her character reveals itself?
If a woman manipulates with sex, it’s likely she will manipulate in other ways too and I submit that it doesn’t take all that long for it to be revealed.

That is what we all are trying to figure out in dating.
The other person’s level of honesty and integrity. Which has to do with everything, not just sex. People tend to act with a level of consistency or not.

If one pays attention, doesn’t ignore the clues, trusts their gut, it’s not that difficult.
hunter 130

Sayanta on post #126, I think some do switch teams, others, sadly enough, marry someone they are not in love with, some do further their career, etc.
hunter 131

on #129, “doesn’t ignore the clues”, aren’t men constantly accused of being “clueless”? Somehow, I don’t think everyone has that, “gut trusting” gift, isn’t the lack of, part of what makes us all different?

It has been my experience, that, the words manipulate/woman, frequently, go together, men must think this way, just to maintain our sanity.
Anisa 132

You must understand
That the touch of your hand
Makes my pulse react
That it`s only the thrill
Of boy meeting girl
Opposites attract

It`s physical
Only logical
You must try to ignore
That it means more than that

Oh whats love got to do, got to do with it
What`s love but a second hand emotion
Who needs a heart
When a heart can be broken

I`ve been thinking of a new direction
But i have to say
I`ve been thinking about my own protection
It scares me to feel this way

What`s love got to do, got to do with it
What`s love but a sweet old fashioned notion
What`s love got to do, got to do with it
Who needs a heart when a heart can be broken
——–
To Sayanta @ post 111
“Dear Christ, what has this society come to?”
The Seductress Within 133

Hunter,
“doesn’t ignore the clues, aren’t men constantly accused of being clueless? Somehow, I don’t think everyone has that, gut trusting gift, isn’t the lack of, part of what makes us all different?”

Here’s a clue: when someone says one thing but does another.
Here’s another: when someone declairs a belief or moral yet behaves in contradiction.
Here’s another: when someone whilst casually telling you their past stories, things don’t add up.
Here’s another: when someone never accepts blame or responsibility for the negative things that happen to them.
Here’s another: when someone behaves with an attitude of entitlement and treats friends, family, waitstaff poorly.

I could go on. All of these can be very glaring, but sometimes very subtle. That’s what I mean by pay attention, don’t ignore the clues.
It’s not a “gift” to trust your gut. Sometimes things feel off yet but you can’t put your finger on it because they are not glaringly obvious. All of which can be signs that someone is not the honest person they may be trying to convince you of.

I don’t believe sweeping negative generalizations such as men are clueless or women are manipulators.

The Seductress Within´s last blog post…Online Dating-Make the First Move
MICHELLE 134

HOW BOUT SOME KAYNE WEST LOVE LOCKDOWN Y’ALL?
starthrower68 135

It is sad what dating and relationships have come to. I can understand what Vino says about men finding other things to do than date because as a woman, I’ve had my share of frustration as well. That having been said, I am by no means implying there are no good guys out there. Of course there are….somewhere…
Sayanta 136

Anisa-

That’s one of my favorite songs, incidentally. Sweet, chilling, intense altogether. Tina rocks!
Sayanta 137

Hunter- post #130

“Sayanta on post #126, I think some do switch teams…”

Hmmm. I’m not an expert on homosexuality by any means, but I’m wondering- if you’re a man who’s been sexually attracted to women, how do you turn that ‘off’ and get attracted to another guy.

I mean, God knows I’ve done my share of bitching and moaning about men, but I’ve never checked out the blonde chick next to me at work because of it.
starthrower68 138

Hunter, I think from the male perspective you probably have a point. I think both sexes have their quirks. Women are seen as manipulative and men are seen as players. Now, we all know that in reality, its probably only true of the MINORITY of people out there. But if that’s a person’s experience enough times, that perception becomes truth.
Karl R 139

Vino said: (#125)
“I do think that, practically speaking, women do have greater control. They can always say no.”

By that same arguement, I could claim that I have greater control over women in relationships … since I can always say no.

It’s entirely possible that women have more control in your relationships, while I have more control in my relationships. This has nothing to do with being male/female, but instead hinges on differences in our self control … and our ability to say “No” to ourselves.

But to look at it from a different perspective: if I find that the amount of power or control (between my partner and me) has become a factor in the relationship, then it’s time to leave that relationship. I don’t want to be in any relationship where power games are being played.
The Seductress Within 140

Very well said Karl!

The Seductress Within´s last blog post…Can Men And Women Be Just Friends?
Anisa 141

I posted the Tina Turner-lyric for a reason.
I know that women (most of them) are loving creatures.
But how about men?? We are talking a lot about sex, relationships, commitment, expectations etc.
But when is LOVE involved? Especially from the male side of view? What is the male-concept of LOVE? Are men able to LOVE a women? And what is the feeling like for them, how do the “discover” it? How do they show it? How can a women know and truly believes that a man loves her? (I don’t mean by words) I am very curious about the reactions, because I think that men nowadays (in general) are afraid of it and protect themselves from that feeling (and I am not talking about being afraid of commitment)……..
Anisa 142

Very well, let me try this one than:
“LOVE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. NOTHING AT ALL!”
It is all about benefits plus freedom vs attachment plus feelings.”
Karl R 143

Anisa (#141 & #142)
Did you watch the third Matrix movie? Near the beginning, Neo has a conversation with a “family” of sentient computer programs. The “father” (Rama-Kandra) claims that he loves his “daughter” (Sati). Neo challenges this claim, since the machines can’t feel emotions.

Rama-Kandra replies, “Love is a word.” He then goes on to point out that the way he acts (out of “love”) is essentially identical to how Neo acts on the love he feels towards Trinity and Morpheus.

Or back it up to the first Matrix movie, when Neo met The Oracle for the first time…
The Oracle: “I’m going to let you in on a little secret. Being The One is just like being in love. No one can tell you you’re in love, you just know it.”
…
The Oracle: “But you already know what I’m going to tell you.”
Neo: “I’m not The One.”

But Neo is the one … or he will be. Eventually he begins to believe it. But Morpheus believes Neo is The One all along. Who is right?

Rama-Kandra has a point. Love is a word. And the way you use that word may be different from the way I use that word.

Anisa said: (#141)
“I think that men nowadays (in general) are afraid of [love] and protect themselves from that feeling”

You really have a low opinion of men, don’t you.

I was watching a show on TV about the Battle of Fallujah. They talked about how “Uncommon valor was a common virtue.” And they also mentioned how that valor was motivated by the love each soldier had for his fellow soldiers. (Military leaders have understood this for ages.)

If you understand this, you can understand a lot about men’s love.

Talk is cheap. Feelings can be deceptive. Men show love through action. They discover they’re in love by acting on it.

Anisa asked: (#141)
“How can a women know and truly believes that a man loves her?”

How can you know there’s a God?
Easy answer: You can’t.

How can you believe in God?
Easy answer: It’s possible for someone to believe in God, but it’s not possible for anyone to tell you how to believe in God.

You want some man to give you easy answers to some of the most complicated questions. Good luck with that. I’m not certain that women are better at loving than men, but they are definitely better at communicating.
Selena 144

From reading this blog it would seem there is a thin line between waiting to have sex until you know someone well enough to believe they won’t disappear afterwards and waiting so long they conclude you are a prude and don’t want to spend any more time getting to know you. Where is the magic window of opportunity? Apparently it is a quite short one. When you reflect upon your past relationships was the line really that narrow?

If you choose to have sex with someone you don’t really know, do so without expectations that having sex makes you a couple, or will lead to being one. Be honest with yourself as to why you are having sex with someone of such short acquaintance.

If your value system is to not share your body until you have a formal commitment with someone, realize that yes, it may take you longer to find a partner who shares/respects your values. Those who don’t aren’t necessarily “wrong”, but simply wrong for you.

If you are a man who finds himself dating a woman who you believe is using sex as some form of manipulation? Clearly you don’t trust her, and therefore don’t need to be dating her anyway.

It seems to me, the regrets about having sex with someone are not always based on what the other person does afterward as much as they are a result of not being honest with OURSELVES when it comes to relationship expectations. And by extension, not being honest with our partners.
Sayanta 145

Anisa-

I don’t want to sound like I’m against you or anything, because Lord knows I’ve had the same questions you’ve had about the opposite sex. But I’m going to agree with Karl’s response to your post.

It sounds, from what you’ve written, that you genuinely have a low opinion of men and that you don’t believe they’re capable of love. The thing is- and believe me, I’ve learned this as well- is that if that’s what you think, that’s the kind of man you’re going to attract. I’m a big believer of the universal laws of energy myself- I realize most people aren’t, but this is what I’ve seen in my own life.

The thing is- and again, I speak from experience- if you believe that men aren’t capable of love, they’re going to pick up on that. And the ones who are genuinely loving will run away from your bitter view. The ones who will stay are the very ones you’ll want to leave.

“I know that women (most of them) are loving creatures.”
Are they? I’ve met plenty of cruel women.

I don’t think we should talk about which gender is more capable of love, better as human beings, etc. The truth is men and women have created this society together. And society is in sad disrepair right now. Men and women have both become exceedingly bitter and narcissistic, and until we get to the root of these problems, badmouthing either sex is going to accomplish nothing.
Anisa 146

Do I have a low opinion about men? I don’t know. I don’t think so. I like them. And I’ve enjoyed a very loving very long term relationship.
Do I have many questions about the other gender regarding love and relationships? YES!

……but I am learning a lot these days, also from this tread.

Thanks for responding.
hunter 147

Selena #144, men know that, having sex with a woman, is like a form of super glue at the short hair site. We know that once that happens, you will be around for some time. Our behavior won’t really matter.
Michelle 148

Anisa asked: (#141)
How can a women know and truly believes that a man loves her?

My answer to that is you won’t haue to wonder because you’ll already know. Men who truly loue you make it clearly apparent so there won’t be any room to doubt; lest they risk losing you.

They call you when they say they will, they don’t stand you up for dates and they generally euen show up on time. They ask how you are and what they can do for you; then actually follow through by doing it!
They really try to make you happy : ) and can’t stand to see you sad.

If they want to be with you, they will be with you, without question whole heartedly and assuredly; and you won’t haue to wonder about it or second guess them. And there is ‘almost’ nothing you or anyone could do that would stand in their way of being with you. That’s how you know!
Selena 149

hunter #147,

“men know that, having sex with a woman, is like a form of super glue at the short hair site. We know that once that happens, you will be around for some time. Our behavior won’t really matter.”

Ha ha! Sometimes, yes it seems. Sometimes no though. Depends on how good the sex was I suppose.
MICHELLE 150

(#148 Continued))
..Additionally they make it a priority to spend time with you and include you in their life…and not just their bedroom! And they will definitely put more than just ‘super (short-hair) glue’ into a ‘real relationship’ to keep you around!!

If you tolerate any behavior that makes you feel bad or like you are a convenience or expendable; than believe me it’s not love!!!
Michael 151

And this: Many men want to sleep around with as many women as possible, because that seems to be man-ego-uplifting. But when it comes to LTR they prefer women who are virgin or practically virgin.
Theoretically, I would not have a problem with an LTR with a virgin.

In practice though, I do not go after the 14-year-old crowd (I am 31) , so the issue is absolutely hypothetical.
Justin 152

Brace yourself for a shocking revelation!

Interesting post, I believe there are alot of men in the online dating world who say they are looking for just friendship but if these men are single it usually turns out they want more of a commitment to the girl they meet. You are right, if a man is just looking for friends they should join a social networking site, dating sites should only be aimed toward finding a date otherwise i’d personally ignore men who send you a pm that have, “looking for friendship”.
mm 153

The truth is that if we tell you that we don’t know what’s going to happen in the morning, nothing will ever happen.

So we say nothing. And hope that you don’t get too attached.

If that doesn’t scream flake!, I don’t know what does. Perhaps most men feel this way; but it doesn’t change the truth that it’s immature, ego-centric, and immoral behavior. For a guy to withhold information that someone else could use to keep herself from getting emotionally hurt just so that he can get his knob polished, it just doesn’t make his species look very worthy of much of anything.

Let me translate this article into a well-known secret: when it comes to familial, romantic, and sexual relationships, most people are nuts. That includes men and women. Just as men have their ways of behaving destructively towards women, women have they’re ways of behaving destructively towards men.

The truth is, there are very good, honorable people out there (men and women) who won’t just use you for the moment (or for sex, money, attention, or anything else). I believe the secret to finding romantic peace is to (1) learn to stop being one of the majority of flakes and (2) learn how to become more attracted to the good and honorable people. Flakes are attracted to flakes. Stop being one, and stop being attracted to them.
susan 154

I have to laugh when I read these articles, I am a woman, and you cannot generalise an entire sex, I have had casual relationships where I absolutely did not get attached whatsoever, I am now married and my husband told me on our first proper date that he thought he was in love with me, nine years later we are crazy about each other, this is a true story, in the past, guys have fallen for me and I was not in love with them, I really think some women are in love with love and not with the guy himself. Maybe I am the exception but ever human being on the planet is different not all men think exactly the same.
StaceyM 155

I would like to say that while the oxycotin revelation (or what ever it is that is put off when a woman orgasms with a man) is good to know about, but you can't blame that solely on your desire to continue to be with a man (going off some earlier posts by some women).
I have been with a man for seven months (the first six were we spent a lot of time together and now we are away from each other) and we have never had sex (I absolutely want to though, but due to circumstances we can't right now and no he isn't married or anything like that). After month five, he told me loved me and wanted to marry me, have kids, etc. And, Ugh.. I have fallen so in love with him too (no oxycotin going on here jeez what if there was, I almost hate to think how I would feel).
I kind of wonder though that his professing of love and stuff to me wasn't just an in the moment thing, an emotional moment on his part -especially because we couldn't have sex or really even touch each other for that matter, although he says it isn't just emotional as he has had time to think about it and it is what he wants. Unfortuantely, his actions lately came to complete halt for a bit (over the course of this last month he has pulled away – way back and first time in my life I did nothing and waited, I stopped talking to him and after about 10 days he eventualy contacted me to tell me he still felt the same way but was feeling stressed out due to the circumstances).
It is all just super hard! I have never played games with anyone, but every circumstance is different. Although, Evan's post did sicken me with the idea that a man can do or say what ever he wants and he shouldn't be held accountable because that is how he made. Huh? I guess the idea being that a woman should just control herself ( but a man doesn't have to how fair is that). I wonder if he still thinks the same way on this issue, now that it has been quite a while since the original post. Based on what he is saying, my boyfriend was only teling me he loved me because it was how he felt at the moment, but I shouldn't trust that he loves me at any other moment and that being said, at any moment he might just drop me like a hot potato when he feels satisfied. How am I supposed to ever feel secure in a relationship? It just won't ever work then.
Karl R 156

StaceyM said: (#155)
"I kind of wonder though that his professing of love and stuff to me wasn't just an in the moment thing, an emotional moment on his part"

If he just said it once, then he was probably just in the moment. If continues to say it, then it's more than just that. Especially if his actions reflect it.

StaceyM said: (#155)
"this last month he has pulled away – way back"

This is not a good sign. However, it sounds like there is some kind of external stressor on your relationship. It sounds like dealing with this external stressor (for him) is taking priority over you. If this is a temporary, extreme situation, that may be perfectly reasonable. If it's going to be something you would have to deal with all the time in a long-term relationship, then it's probably not.

StaceyM asked: (#155)
"Based on what he is saying, my boyfriend was only teling me he loved me because it was how he felt at the moment, but I shouldn't trust that he loves me at any other moment and that being said, [...] How am I supposed to ever feel secure in a relationship? "

Look for consistent patterns of behavior. Does he consistently act like he loves you? Then he does. Does his behavior usually indicate that you're a low priority in his life? Then that's the case, even if he told you that he loved you.

In this situation, Evan is talking about how you should treat the situation when you're basing on as man's behavior for one evening. That's never going to be enough information. After being in a relationship for seven months, you should have a clear picture about how he behaves on a regular basis.

StaceyM said: (#155)
"Evan's post did sicken me with the idea that a man can do or say what ever he wants and he shouldn't be held accountable because that is how he made."

I think you're misunderstanding Evan's point. If you don't like the way your boyfriend pulls away from you, you can hold him accountable … by leaving him. What you can't do is force him to change in the way you would like him to.

The same holds true for men. If I don't like the way that my girlfriend treats me, then I can leave. If I don't like the way that women (in general) behave, then I can either learn to accept it -OR- spend a long time searching for someone who is an exception to the rule. But I don't get the option to change my girlfriend's behavior or women's behavior.
StaceyM 157

Hey thanks Karl. My boyfriend had been very consistent with telling me loved me, continued to say he wanted a future with me, etc. until that last month, then he pulled way back (and behaved in a way he hadn't ever behaved in the past), so I didn't talk to him. Now he is back on, but it just happened, so I will have to wait. A lot of people seem to think his love isn't real (they are telling me that he wouldn't have acted the way he did if he loved me), but I know what I have seen. Yes, his situation is making it harder for both of us. It is not a forever thing, but long enough to make some people walk away.
I can agree that if we are talking about one evening (or one date or a few), then if a guy is professing his love at that point, then it is too soon. If a woman thinks it is the right time to sleep with him because she thinks it will add to a longer term committment, then I don't agree with that. If she is interested and doesn't care where it goes, then sleep with him (if you/she wants), but don't buy into "words" only.

That said, I will be looking out for "action."
starthrower68 158

Oh God, how I love this particular topic! I don’t know why it makes me laugh, it just does. It’s a lot more fun to be a member of the Greek chorus than a player in the drama….
Susan 159

God, I’m glad I’m married!!!
I hated being single, & mostly because of crap like this.
God forbid I end up widowed, I’m staying that way (It’s not like anyone could measure up to my husband, anyway, but that’s beside the point).
Gazelle 160

It makes sense to back-off from a guy if his behaviour shows that he is not that into you. It also makes sense to assume everyone you meet is not immediately interested in a serious relationship even if they say they are - they don’t know you so how can they possibly decide they want to be serious with you as opposed to the next girl? People get divorced after having sex for years with the same person – so why would having sex mean that a person won’t lose interest and leave you?

On the dating front, I am only impressed by a self-aware guy who has the integrity and confidence to discuss what our respective intentions might be because he is concerned that neither he nor I get hurt due to mistaken assumptions or expectations. If he wants sex more than he wants to have a conversation to avoid potentially hurting someone, albeit a relative stranger, that tells me all I need to know about his character – i.e. he can’t see the point of controlling his natural sexual instincts or having a difficult conversation simply because it is the right thing to do to avoid hurting someone. I would wonder in what other areas of his life he chooses not to control his actions and is ok with inflicting pain simply because it is easier for him. if I initiate the conversation with him it is not because I feel needy or clingy but because I have the balls to overcome my fear of an uncomfortable conversation in order to lessen potential future pain to him or me. Because if we don’t have the conversation then there is no relationship and we could be missing out on something potentially great …that might hurt too…or not LOL. And yes if his words say one thing but his actions say another I’ll go with the actions.

If he is a genuine guy with integrity he may be honest about his interest level, and we could wind up friends because guys can be fun to hang out with as friends. Or if he is the other type it may be easier for him to just move onto playing with some other girl’s emotions for his amusement than try to convince me he is into me just to have sex (I’m pretty hard to convince being a natural cynic) and it’s not like he’d be missing the best sex he ever had if he moved on LOL.

Based on what Evan says, society is not going to censure an individual – man or woman - for suddenly changing their mind about their level of interest at any point in a relationship and leaving without an explanation or effort to fix a problem (they may censure privately or anonymously on a forum but no one is going to come out and call their friend a jerk) so until society changes, men and women would be wise to be VERY VERY cautious before they invest their feelings in any new relationship. Evan has told us men find it easier to be detached - IMO parents and society have always had 2 choices - teach their daughters to fight their natural instincts and become detached like men or raise their sons and daughters to behave in a way that puts honesty and integrity and kindness above their natural instincts including the natural instinct for sex. I know which one I’ll be teaching my kids.
Evan Marc Katz 161

@Gazelle: Well said, until this line: “IMO parents and society have always had 2 choices – teach their daughters to fight their natural instincts and become detached like men or raise their sons and daughters to behave in a way that puts honesty and integrity and kindness above their natural instincts including the natural instinct for sex.”

As if a) parents are actually teaching their daughters the emotions around sex and intimacy. They’re not. Frankly, most don’t even know how to handle sex themselves; you can be sure that they’re not even bringing it up with their own daughters.

And b) As if honesty and integrity are on the flip side of detachment. A man doesn’t lack integrity because he has the desire and ability to have unattached sex. Nor does a woman, for that matter. All you can do as a parent is teach your kid the Golden Rule, be a good role model, and keep your fingers crossed. By the time he/she is 17 years old, their decisions are out of your hands. As a guy who actually PRIDES himself on his integrity AND had a decent amount of unattached sex, you really missed the mark on this one. It’s not an either/or. If women can’t successfully separate sex from love, they shouldn’t have unattached sex. Men don’t need much effort in doing so; as such, sex doesn’t violate their own integrity. Plus, she’s not responsible for her feelings. She is.
Gazelle 162

@Evan. I meant we should teach our kids to choose integrity over their natural instinct to have sex, lots of sex, without regard for people’s feelings. I didn’t mean choose integrity over a man’s natural instinct to be detached when having sex – I agree integrity is not the flip side of detachment – didn’t mean to make you think I was doubting your integrity. And maybe my mother was the only one then – she drummed it into me to be detached by telling me that excessive emotion and dependency were weaknesses and I should have the education to be able to walk away from any relationship if I needed to and be self-sufficient rather than stay out of fear of the unknown. She also taught me that to walk away from a good relationship because I lost interest was pure self-indulgence, emotional and weak. Maybe she was wrong but it has helped me avoid a whole ot of drama that I see my friends go through.
starthrower68 163

I will make up for my other post and wholeheartely agree with you on this one, Evan. We parents can teach our children until we’re blue in the face about these things, but in the heat of the moment, our lectures are probably not on their minds. I’ve seen lots of good kids have babies as teen-agers. It happened to me and my parents swear up and down I was one of the good kids. But I digress.

I know that not everyone on this forum puts much stock in Christianity or what the Bible says, but I always go back to Proverbs 4:23: “keep thy heart with all dilligence, for out of it are the issues of life”. God is basically telling us we are responsible for not getting ourselves hurt and we’d better make wise choices or we will.
Gazelle 164

And Evan, although I agree factually you are correct – he is solely responsible for his feelings, and she is solely responsible for hers since it is impossible for either party to control somone else’s feelings, I still think that if you are aware of what somone’s feelings might be if you behaved a certain way, you are responsible for your choice to act in a way you know will cause pain. You could choose to act in a different way to mitigate the pain. So for the choice you make with deliberate intent or recklessness as to the consequences - morally you are responsible for that.
Selena 165

I’m not sure the concept of sex and detachment can be taught, it’s usually the result of “hands on” training. Young women often assume that having sex automatically makes them a girlfriend and painfully find out that’s not true. And sometimes they assume they will be cool with no strings attached sex, but discover they were wrong. Or lying to themselves. And for both genders doing sex seems easier than talking about it beforehand.

If someone wants exclusivity in a sexual relationship they have to get that card on the table before agreeing to sex. If they want attachment in a sexual relationship they are going to have to wait until the attachment has formed, instead of hoping it will form after having sex. This is individual responsiblity – not the other person’s, not society’s and not the parent’s.
Gazelle 166

What is Evan’s mirroring technique if it is not a way to teach us to be detached rather than act emotionally. Evan seems to think detachment can be taught and I agree with him.

If he can teach it, then so can parents – sorry Evan to potentially put you out of a lucrative source of income. In my case my mother was lovingly sarcastic . I have felt attraction, lust, love, infatuation, low self-esteem and have often manged to talk myself out of acting on them to mitigate someone else’s pain, in the same way that Evan is trying to teach us to not act emotionally to mitigate our own pain. I can extend Evan’s worthy principle externally, not because I am exceptionally clever but because my mother could articulate why it was the right thing to do in a way that appealed to my ego. My father was a lot more touchy-feely and displayed his affection but he was away working a lot so I wanted my mother’s approval and reined in my emotions and have carried that habit ever since. It doesn’t mean I am not naturally emotional – I cry watching movies all the time – I just try not to act on my emotions if I am going to cause avoidable pain to someone who has shown some faith or trust in me by making themselves even a little bit vulnerable to me. If acting on my emotions causes me pain then that’s my individual choice and my individual responsibility as Selena says, but I disagree that other people, society and parents don’t have a responsibility to act in a way that will mitigate another individual’s pain just as much as we each have a responsibility for our own pain. I was taught to look out for other people’s feelings and if I failed to do this I was taught to apologise, attempt to make amends and try harder to not repeat my mistake. My mother’s unemotional view protected me from pain today although I might have missed out on some hugs and kisses and indulgence when I was a child. Maybe I’m in the minority by thinking society should look out for each other and stop being so self-indulgent about their emotional needs - but like I said it certainly has saved me from excessive drama. If someone treats me badly I call them on it and walk away until they change their behaviour. If they change their behaviour I will be in their life but still remain detached since I assume there is no reason to think they will not get weak and self-indulgent again and I want to protect myself from their self-indulgence. I will also try my hardest to protect others from my own weak self-indulgence, by acknowledging my motivations openly – why not – I haven’t met a single person who wasn’t weak and self-indulgent in some aspect of their life so why worry about someone else’s hypocritical judgment of me when I admit my own weaknesses to them. At least they will have the knowledge to protect themselves from me. I can teach that level of awareness to my children – it will stay with them even if they are sometimes too weak to act on it. It’s seems a lot more pro-active than the defeatist comments of why bother, children won’t listen, people have no responsibility to each other so don’t even try. Children will listen to some of it and practise some of it, which is better than nothing.
Gazelle 167

By the way - since when does exclusivity and attachment protect you from getting hurt when you have sex? Marriage is a display of exclusivity and attachment but married people still leave or abuse you or whatever after having sex…but if you say in today’s society we are only responsible for our own feelings and not the feelings of others this shouldn’t be a problem for anyone or indicate a need for social change or better parenting so we treat each other better. Sex is a red-herring in this scenario – when we have attached sex we all know we could get hurt at any point in our life.
Selena 168

@#167

I don’t know that there is anything, including practiced detachment, that prevents anyone from getting hurt as they go through life.

Being clear on wanting exclusivity and attachment in a sexual relationship and walking your talk, can however prevent you from deluding yourself because you want to have sex with someone. And then turning around and blaming them for not having the same feelings as you.
starthrower68 169

Well let’s put it this way, Gazelle: if you think that people are capable of being taught sex (or whatever) while remaining emotionally detached and you feel comfortable engaging in that behavior and accepting the consequences, then more power to you. Nobody is telling you or anyone else not to do it. Some people recognize that it will not work for them so they decide not to try it. More power to them also for recognizing their limits and not trying to push it.
Gazelle 170

@168

I agree – you’re going to get hurt in life and so why do women stress so much about getting hurt after sex in particular? It’s a given that the more you let someone in the more they have the ability to hurt you.

And yes I also agree that we should all be clear about what we want so we don’t delude ourselves. As you say you can’t achieve anything positive by blaming a person for not feeling what you feel - they are entitled to feel whatever they feel. I just think this self-indulgent need to act on feelings is an over-rated concept. It’s similar to a soldier feeling fear in the face of battle and then choosing to act on his feelings and turning tail and running.
Gazelle 171

@169

I’m confused. I thought that that was what Evan was selling here – how to suppress your feelings i.e. detach yourself from your emotional impulses and conform to a certain pattern of behaviour in order to get your prize – a man.

The only problem is it appears that while women can be trained to detach themselves, men aren’t required to detach themselves – if they feel like running or not calling they apparently don’t have the strength to overcome their feelings and are hard-wired to be emotional creatures who can’t be coaxed to conform to any externally-set behaviour pattern in relation to sex. Funny how some men can be trained to go against every natural instinct and sacrifice their lives to protect or defend the physical well-being of the vulnerable but your average man or woman is apparently unable to be trained to act in a way that will protect the vulnerable feelings of the person they are dating. But hey – despite this apparently we all still feel the need to love them….
Selena 172

@170

I don’t consider it about detachment from feelings, but rather detaching from expectations. Dating is essentially just getting to know another person after all. I think sometimes people forget that and get caught up in projecting a relationship before one has had time to develop.

I totally don’t get your comparisons and it sounds as though you’ve been hurt badly. I’m sorry for that and I hope you find a way to heal soon.
starthrower68 173

@Gazelle #169,

I think I understand your point, and what Evan says to that is, it’s usually the women writing in to find out how to have a successful dating/relationship experience. It’s not that men (and there are many who are active posters here) shouldn’t act decently toward women; they generally don’t ask the relationship questions.

@Selena #170,

Some have a greater abilty than others to compartmentalize; they can separate sex from emotions. I would think it’s a wise idea to not have sex with someone with whom one has no expectations unless one has this ability.
Gazelle 174

I guess what I’m saying is that I don’t need to have a significant relationship with people before I start being considerate of their feelings. My analogy is to demonstrate that I think people can be trained to choose to be considerate even if their instincts prompt different impulses, the same way they can be trained to choose to run towards enemy fire rather than running away as their instincts would tell them to do. I don’t see why people let themselves off the hook so much by shifting all the responsibility for hurt feelings to the person they are hurting. Well, actually I do see why – it’s easier than sharing the responsibility because then you might have to deny yourself something you want in order to be considerate. i’m not talking about BLAME here – just responsibility.

But I’m with you on the fact that it is my responsibility to not make any assumptions about someone else’s feelings regardless of what they tell me they feel and regardless of their actions – because their actions only reflect their present feelings and give no indication of their future feelings. So if they love me today I will love them today and if they stop loving me tomorrow I will stop loving them tomorrow. To me that is remaining detached to some degree i.e. while I am busy feeling love I keep in mind they’re just feelings and feelings could change.

I haven’t been hurt (much) - I actually feel bad as I have recently become close to someone that I now realise may have loved me and been hurt by me in the past. I have a strong connection (infatuation?) with him now and I think he feels the same way but obviously I have no idea as I have never discussed these feelings - I am not going to act on these feelings because I have no intention of doing anything that would hurt my husband. Evan’s website has helped me feel more detached from my infatuation by making me realise how detached men are. Thanks Evan.
Selena 175

Star,
I agree with you that some people are better able to comparmentalize sex and emotion than others. What I meant from detaching from expectations is approaching dating with the idea that it is an opportunity to get to know someone. Sometimes within the first few dates, if they’ve gone well, someone will start projecting about a relationship existing when for the other person there isn’t- yet – it’s just a few dates that have gone well. And having sex can influence this set of expectations.

Here’s a common scenario: Woman has an enjoyable couple dates with a man and starts fantasizing about him as her boyfriend. She sleeps with him within the first few weeks of knowing him and her mind, that makes them a couple. In his mind, they are just dating – they don’t have “a relationship” yet. If he decides she’s not the one for him and breaks it off, that’s all it is to him. To her, he’s a heartless jerk who used her for sex. What’s the reality?

Sex can be part of getting to know someone, but one would have to view it in that way. The problem I see is when both people don’t. If a woman believes dating someone automatically makes him her boyfriend, and having sex with him means they are in a committed relationship without it ever being discussed then she is operating on her own set of expectations and may be in for a letdown.

If one views dating as simply a way of getting to know someone else, without expectations, then they proceed accordingly. The questions with sex become, “Do I want to have sex with someone I don’t know very well yet?” “Do I want to have sex without a committment?” That puts the responsibility on the individual (where it belongs) and not on the other person.
Janice T 176

There is NO way an ethical man who understood oxytocin’s role in women’s bonding through sex could rationalize having casual sex with anyone not already on an adult hookup site. Oxytocin forces women to bond when they have sex – sex releases this bonding hormone.

Men don’t like adult hook up sites, they prefer to sully the psyches of women looking for love, instead? Really? Tough luck boys. Get a conscience. Grow up and read the newspapers. Once you school yourself on oxytocin, you have NO MORE excuses to play the field for casual sex. It doesn’t work for women because they are *biochemically engineered* to bond over sex. We women have TOLD you this for eons, but you never believed us, blithely going on about the “possibilties” of casual sex – there are NONE for women! That is just a male fantasy!

Be honest – if you want casual sex – find someone from an adult sex site or have casual sex with other MEN. Adult sites are skeezy for a reason! Normal women DON’T WANT casual sex!

The truth will set you free – and hopefully, injure fewer women.

Google it: Oxytocin.

Peace out.
Karl R 177

Janice T said: (#176)
“Normal women DON’T WANT casual sex!”

Really?
http://www.alternet.org/sex/146631/women_have_lots_of_casual_sex_–_get_over_it

About half of my sex partners have been casual partners. Half of them told me that they weren’t interested in a long-term relationship (or an exclusive relationship). With the other half, I explicitly told them that I didn’t want a long-term / monogamous / serious / committed relationship, but they decided they wanted to have sex anyway.

I’ve never been on an adult hookup site. I met these women through friends, at bars, at dance class, even at church.

Janice T said: (#176)
“There is NO way an ethical man who understood oxytocin’s role in women’s bonding through sex could rationalize having casual sex with anyone not already on an adult hookup site.”

You know the effects of oxytocin on women. More importantly, you know the effects of oxytocin on you (since the effects vary from one woman to another). If I explicitly tell you that I’m not interested in a long-term relationship, why can’t you make the choice whether or not you want to have casual sex?

You’re an adult. If you want to ride a motorcycle, you can do it. If you want to skydive, you can do it. If you want to have casual sex, it’s not ethical for me to tell you that you can’t. If you want someone to forbid you from doing things that might be risky, talk to your parents.

Part of being an adult is taking responsibility for your own choices. If I have given you the information you needed to make an informed decision, then I have acted ethically. (If a man knowingly misleads you, then he has acted unethically.)

And if you made an informed decision that you later regret, it is neither ethical nor mature for you to blame the other party for your own choices.
Goldie 178

#176-177 As a mother of two teenage boys, I find Janice’s comment very helpful. It would certainly help for my sons to know that many women are chemically wired to bond with a man over sex, so they’re prepared for it and keep the lines of communications open in their own relationships in the future, to know what each side’s expectations are. That said, I’m having a really hard time trying to apply Janice’s comment to myself. I really don’t think I work this way.

My guess is, women and people in general are a lot more complicated than their stereotypical genetic makeup. Everyone has their own personality, their own reactions to different things. We’re not programmed to all produce the same output given the same data. Life in general, and dating especially, would be pretty boring otherwise!
Ruby 179

Karl #177

The women in the study were between the ages of 20-30. That’s a pretty young sample, and not all that surprising given the age range.

You may have been explicit, but I don’t think that’s the norm. In my experience with men wanting to be casual, they have almost NEVER that clear-cut about what they wanted. And I always had friends who thought they were okay with a casual relationship, who later discovered that they wanted more once they began seeing someone.
Helen 180

All: let’s not be egalitarian to the point of absurdity, to ignore the differences in what sexual intercourse means to each gender.

I don’t deny that women can (not all the time) enjoy casual sex. But there’s far less reason for women to engage in it than men. We have no reproductive imperative to mate with as many men as possible. We are the ones who disproportionately suffer from STIs – not to say that men do not at all (witness the recent news story about HIV transmission from the German singer to a man), but the health risks are far greater to women. And we are the ones who risk getting pregnant, with all the life-changing ramifications that entails.

Add to this that society hasn’t yet wrapped its head around the notion that men and women are equals in morality and status when it comes to casual sex. The more notches he has on his belt, the more studly he is. The more notches she has, the more slutty she is. So on top of all the health concerns, we have our reputations to risk.

It’s not about oxytocin, which is produced in both men and women. It’s about risk and reward. Men and women are different in this particular activity, no matter how much we may wish it to be otherwise.
Ruby 181

Helen #180

Good points, I agree with you. I disagree about oxytocin, though. Yes, both men and women produce it, but its effects in men are largely cancelled out by the male hormone testosterone.
Goldie 182

Hey, I was just saying that not all women will automatically bond to a man they’ve had sex with, because of some chemical predestination they supposedly have. But some men will, in fact, bond to a woman. Maybe everyone’s levels of oxytocin, testosterone (women have it too), etc. are different, and that is what determines their reaction – among other factors, such as their personality, values, beliefs, age, life experiences etc etc. Just a layman’s guess (no pun intended…)
Karl R 183

Helen said: (#180)
“let’s not be egalitarian to the point of absurdity, to ignore the differences in what sexual intercourse means to each gender.”

I’m not trying to say the situation is identical for us. I am saying that your ability to make decisions is equal to mine, and your right to make decisions is equal to mine. Therefore, I shouldn’t be making those decisions for you.

If you decide against casual sex because the risk is too high, or the emotional consequences are too complex, or because you just don’t feel like it, I respect that decision. I just don’t understand the women who think men should be responsible for making that decision for them.

Ruby said: (#179)
“You may have been explicit, but I don’t think that’s the norm.”

And if you want to say that it’s unethical for men to mislead women (or vice versa), I completely agreement.
Evan Marc Katz 184

It’s easy to say what men SHOULD do. It’s just ridiculous to preach about it. As ridiculous as it is to say people should NEVER lie or ALWAYS pay their full taxes or NEVER judge anyone based on appearance.

The fact is: we men don’t always KNOW what we want – or whether the woman with whom we’re getting physical is going to be girlfriend material. All we know is that we’re attracted and that we’ll sort it out later. As Karl said, if YOU can’t handle the insecurity of not knowing where something is headed, then DON’T sleep with him; but don’t blame him for sleeping with you without commitment.

You’re just as complicit in the act as we are.
Selena 185

Where’s Honey? She did some research and called Urban Legend on oxytocin on another thread.

Here we go again trying to blame “biology” instead of taking responsibility for our own choices. How convenient.
Ruby 186

I’m not sure how any of this means we women are blaming biology. While it’s not always easy to be rational when you’re feeling sexually aroused, what this does mean is that women have more to consider (health risks, pregnancy, reputation, emotions) before becoming sexually involved than men do. Nothing earth-shattering or new about that.
Selena 187

Sorry Ruby, I wasn’t refering to Helen’s post, rather Janice T.’s rant about how women can’t/don’t want casual sex because of oxytocin and males should somehow take responsibility for that. Blarney.

If you don’t want a casual sexual relationship, Don’t Have Sex With Someone You Barely Know. It really is that simple Janice.
Claire 188

@ Evan,
“If women can’t successfully separate sex from love, they shouldn’t have unattached sex.”
This is, of course, true, but is this what we are discussing? It sounds like the OP is frustrated with men lying about their feelings and intentions (or, at the very least, misrepresenting them) in order to get a booty call. In which case, the woman is led to believe she is agreeing to “attached” sex of some kind.
As a woman who’s been around the block few times, I agree that this is common behavior for men..I fell for it a few times, myself. But I would hardly condone it or consider it “behaving with integrity” to lie in order to get what you want, knowing full well that the other party might not participate if she knew the whole story. Is it alright for me to fail to mention that I haven’t taken my birth control, just because I might want a baby daddy? Wouldn’t most men consider that a vital piece of information in the “to sex or not to sex” decision? But, so what, right? I’m living in the moment, and I want what I want.
And, this is a troubling quote:
“The truth is that if we tell you that we don’t know what’s going to happen in the morning, nothing will ever happen. So we say nothing. And hope that you don’t get too attached.”
Wow. That’s just cold. Seriously, adult friend finder is sleazy, but lying to a woman to get her into bed is….classy?
Any woman over 18 knows that men do this –it’s so common it’s cliche– and the best we can do is interpret their protestations of affection for what they actually are – false advertising.
Evan Marc Katz 189

Thank you, Claire, for making my point better than I could:

I say: “When we’re attracted to you on a first date, we DON’T know where things are headed.” This means what we DO know is that we want to sleep with you the second we see you, but we CAN’T know if we want you as a girlfriend without spending a few weeks or months together.

You take that as: “He’s lying to get me in bed.” Not true. There’s no lie if WE DON’T KNOW. I didn’t know I wanted my wife as a girlfriend for about a month. Did I LIE to her? No. She stuck around and took a chance on me. If you don’t take a chance on any man, you’ll protect yourself from being hurt – and also prevent yourself from finding love.

This isn’t a matter of men’s integrity, Claire. This is a matter of women expecting men to make commitments before they have enough information to make commitments AND expecting them to NOT want to sleep with you AND make that decision on your behalf if you’re willing to sleep with them. I think we can agree that this is wishful thinking. The solution is not to tell men to be better or figure out their long-term plans for you on the first date. The solution is to stop sleeping with men if you don’t have a commitment. THAT you can control.
Claire 190

Actually, I don’t want or expect a man to commit to me after the first, or even tenth, date. And, I certainly hope that if he’s gone to the trouble of inviting me out, that he’s sexually attracted to me. I think either party should be given the room to “not know” for as long as they need. But, if you don’t know, why hide it? Why slip that piece of info under the rug and hope she doesn’t notice? And, why distract her with vague, buttery words that she will most likely misinterpret?
And I think that is the rub. Men say “you’re sexy and beautiful,” and women hear “you’re soooo special to me.” It took me a long time to figure out that that is not what it means at all.
“The solution is to stop sleeping with men if you don’t have a commitment”
Fair enough. And, I usually do. Signed in blue or black ink and notarized.(just kidding
Evan Marc Katz 191

@Claire – What “smooth, buttery words” are you referring to? Guys don’t say “I love you” to get into bed anymore. Really. They don’t have to.

Your intimation that, at some point in the first three dates, it’s the man’s responsibility to say, “Before we go back to your place, I just want you to know that I’m not sure whether you’re going to be my long-term girlfriend” is patently absurd.

You can’t pin this on men. Full disclosure in dating is not to be expected by EITHER gender.
Claire 192

I don’t know that I would pin this on men. I’ve certainly seen women milk men for all they’re worth. Obviously, both genders are capable of being manipulative. And, no, I’ve not heard “I love you” in quite some time, and definitely not in California. But, I’ve certainly been showered with the kind of pretty compliments and attention in the beginning of a relationship that could lead a girl to believe the guy was absolutely smitten. Stuff like “you deserve to be with a man who adores you.” That’s laying it on pretty thick, wouldn’t you say? It just seemed like having the couplehood conversation would be pointless and insulting to him because his feelings were completely obvious. Or so I thought. Now when I hear that stuff I just smile and say “thank you” and realize that it doesn’t mean they’re particularly captivated, they’re just feeling frisky.
Karl R 193

Claire, (#190 & 192)
If a guy says, “you’re sexy and beautiful,” and you hear, “you’re so special to me,” what makes you think we have the ability to say things that you WON’T misinterpret?

Err on the side of literalism. If a guy says that you deserve to be with someone who adores you, he hasn’t stated that he’s that someone.

“Smitten” (or any other synonym for infatuated) fades eventually. Wait for him to convey an interest that’s a little more enduring
bleh 194

This is long, but eh. I got worked up. Believe it or not, it’s actually possible for a woman to feel intense chemistry, attraction, and be in the moment with a man – and then go to bed with him – and still not know if she wants a relationship with him the next morning. I know, because I’ve been that woman. And I’ve had to face the situation where I had been intimate anywhere from once to a half a dozen times with a man and he had gotten attached but I didn’t know if I wanted an exclusive, committed relationship with him. And honestly, it doesn’t feel good to be pressured into a relationship with someone because *they* have feelings that feel overwhelming to them. It feels like they’re making their feelings at a considerably higher priority than mine. If they’re pushing so hard like that now, what would they be like in the relationship down the road, when the stakes are higher?

I take relationships very seriously, as I believe do most men. Relationships require much more than simply great sex and chemistry to work for me, at this point in my life (late twenties). They require an alignment of goals and values on things such as: how do we both deal with our money and is that compatible for the long term? Does he not want to have kids, but I’m dead-set on a family? (And vice versa.) If those things are out of whack, it doesn’t matter how great the orgasms are because the relationship won’t work. So I respect it when people take their time to decide.

I’ve also been on the flipside when I’ve gotten extremely attached to someone and seen the future we could have together and gotten really excited about him, whereas he was not on the same page and didn’t know what he wanted. Did it hurt? Of course it hurt, but as someone else said earlier here, part of being adult in dating is knowing that you’re going to be putting yourself out there and risk getting hurt.

You wouldn’t expect to go through life without experiencing any physical pain. You wouldn’t stop enjoying all the things you like to do – whether that’s running, dancing, or playing with your nieces and nephews just because you might risk getting an injury. Why should it be so much different emotionally? Once you accept the fact that hurt is a part of the process, dating becomes a lot less confusing and scary and ego-bruising. You can then be in the moment with a man and enjoy him without feeling needy and insecure. And there are lots of men out there – at every age – who are great and interesting and single and looking for love. I’ve met them. I don’t believe there’s a perfect soul mate for everybody, and if one man isn’t able to step up to the plate and give me the relationship I want – no matter how awesome he is – I’m free to keep looking if that’s what I need, and possibly to keep dating him if I can handle him not knowing and ending up deciding I’m not the one. I’m actually glad that some relationships with uncommital men I’ve met along the way haven’t worked out, because I went on to meet other men who were interesting, passionate, and a much better fit for me.

Ah, but what about this thing – the big S-E-X. It’s too bad we women are socialized to believe that if we’re too “free” with being sexual that we’re insecure and giving it away for free because we don’t value ourselves enough or we’re nymphos or sluts. Newsflash: It’s the 21st century, and I, as a woman, enjoy sex as much as a man does. I feel sad when I read comments like, “We women are in such a quandary, because if we put out too soon, he loses interest – but if we wait too long, he thinks we’re frigid and leaves. How do we strike the balance?” Hmmm…I know! How about stop giving two **** about what he is thinking and wanting? As Evan says, men do what they want. How about you also do what YOU want? If you don’t feel safe and secure sleeping with a guy until commitment is on the table, then don’t. But don’t work yourself up overanalyzing why some guys might walk away when you don’t put out. Set up your boundaries and respect them and know that the right guy will fit with your boundaries.

For me, as a woman, I have sex when I want to. And that’s not on the first date, because it’s simply not fun for me. Sex is fun when the two people have developed some emotional chemistry, not just physical chemistry. I have sex when I feel safe and comfortable and sexy with a guy, when I don’t feel he’s pressuring me to put out, when it feels like sharing that with him will be a fun, exciting, and mutually pleasurable experience. Basically, when I feel ready. That’s never been by date three. I suppose it could take months in some cases, as if the guy is coming on strong and really pressuring me in the beginning I simply don’t feel safe sharing that with him. For me, waiting an arbitrary number of dates or until “commitment is on the table” doesn’t work because it feels like I’m trying to control the man. And the truth is, you can’t control anybody. And because I enjoy sex, I don’t want to wait until “marriage” or “commitment” necessarily.

It’s totally possible, by the way, to “wait for sex until commitment is on the table,” and then, three months into your committed relationship or however long it is, have him lose interest and leave you for xyz reason. And that is, again, because you can’t control another human being and how they feel.

If you put out, by the way, at a time when it feels safe and sexy and then weeks or months later the guy starts to withdraw, I usually handle it the following way: I give him his space for a while and let him come to me, as that is what I would want if I needed some downtime. But if it starts to become a pattern, I say something, usually in a lighthearted, teasing way at first to let him know I’ve noticed there’s a difference. If the behavior continues, I let him know in a calm matter of fact way that seeing him means something to me and I’d like to see him more. His choice, then, whether he wants to or not. If not—Next!

Men are totally entitled to be in the moment with you and want to sleep with you AND to not know what they want. As are women. BUT – he’s a douchebag in my book if he KNOWS in his mind, the light switch has gone off, that you’re the wrong woman for him and that he’ll never want something serious with you and then says and does awesome stuff that make you feel girly and loved and great and like there’s a future, just because he wants to get you in the sack. Guys, please don’t break women’s hearts like this. Not knowing is cool; knowing and deliberately deceiving makes it even harder for other guys to find a good woman. How about a little “leave her better off than when you found her” or at least “Don’t totally screw with someone else’s emotions and perception of reality.” Part of being an adult is also giving up a little instant gratification if it’s unethical. It’s a two-way street: You wouldn’t want a woman to, say, keep going out with you because you bought her gifts and paid for dates even though she had no intention of sleeping with you or pursuing something more intimate with you than using you for a free meal. It makes her a deceitful bitch, so don’t do it to us with sex.

You can always tell someone up front, if the light switch has gone off, that you know they’re not the one for you long-term. That is has nothing to do with them, it’s just not the right fit, but that you still find them great and attractive and would like to sleep with them. As a woman, I don’t take this personally, and if I feel safe with you and the sex is safe and pleasurable, I might just continue to sleep with you while I look for someone else. Because I believe men when they say and do things that SHOW their intentions, and I will take you at your word and leave you and the awesome orgasms behind when I meet someone else.
Claire 195

Hey Karl,
Thanks for your input.
I have a casting director friend that had a crush on this cute little actress. She got wind of it, and started flirting her little boots off in the hopes that he would get her some good auditions. He dutifully obliged, of course. In the beginning, they were both in relationships, so he couldn’t act on it, but eventually they both found themselves single, and he asked her out. She was shocked, SHOCKED I say, that he could interpret her overtures as anything other than friendly. He was devastated. Is he just a big, dumb sucker or was she being kinda cruel? She wanted auditions and he willingly gave them to her. How was she to know that all of her empty flattery would make him think she liked him? Just because she didn’t literally say she wants to be with him, do you believe she was completely oblivious to how her behavior was being received?
If, in the context of a budding relationship, a man tells a woman she deserves a man who adores her, that she’s amazing, he’s never met anyone like her, etc. –Is he really completely oblivious to the possibility that she might infer that he’d like to be that someone? It’s possible, I suppose, but I’m doubtful.
Selena 196

@#195

You mean to tell us your friend, the casting director, is unaccustomed to flattery from actresses? It’s possible, I suppose, but I’m doubtful.
Karl R 197

Good point, Selena. (#196)

Claire, (#195)
I would have to say that the director was a sucker. He had something she wanted, so it was a reasonable possibility that her behavior was motivated by interest in something else.

It never occurred to him that an actress might ACT in order to get a part?

Every time a woman has told me that I deserve someone wonderful, she was breaking up with me. I don’t interpret that as “I want to be in a relationship with you.”
aussiecountrygirl 198

The sex issue is a minefield but it is casual sex until you both agree that you are in an exclusive relationship. Can you screw your way to it? Maybe - but don’t underestimate the how much you might get hurt on the way.

I’ve had a couple of “friends and sex” relationships that were wonderful and worked really well but the telling point is that I am still really good friends with both of these guys despite us not having laid a hand on each other for years. The attraction is gone but the friendship and mutual respect is strong.

I recently got myself burned in another F&S relationship and what pulled me up is when I realised that this guy wasn’t my “friend” – he was using me and I was letting him. I don’t have any ill will for him but he’s no longer part of my life BECAUSE he’s not a friend not because I slept with him and it didn’t work out.

Casual sex or not, at some point you have to ask yourself why you are there and if you don’t like your answer it is more telling on you not the bloke you are with. I figure I can’t be responsible for a bloke’s reasons but I am responsible for mine and if you are uncomfortable get going.
Jen A. 199

I haven’t read all of the posts, just up through 113. But I want to say I’m kind of tired of hearing women refer to sex in only one of three ways: something he wants that some women use as a bartering tool and therefore give into early without commitment, something women will only give up if he commits, or something sleezy women do. I am of the fourth unspoken category. I do want sex and happen to enjoy it. I don’t want it with a bunch of men, but I am not ready for a commitment with this one man I’m interested in sex with. I am not going to demand commitment from him right now or demand i know who he’s sleeping with. I am not a sleaze. We have “messed around” but not actually had intercourse, but almost. Do I want to have sex with him? Yes. I am allowed to enjoy sex with this man, it does not make me lower than you. I do worry about getting hurt, not because I want a commitment but because I will probably want to see or hang around him more than he will be available. But denying my own sexuality because I might get hurt seems silly. I have a family (2 kids) and already had the long marriage. Quite frankly I don’t know if I’ll want to marry again. I don’t see the point of denying myself any happiness whatsoever in a quest for finding a particular long term guy. I guess I’m kind of like a man right now. I just want a friend and physical intimacy and I don’t need answers right now about what the future will bring.
Jen A. 200

I wanted to clarify my first category: when women think other women are giving it up so easy and they are worried if they don’t give it up too they may lose him….they decide to have sex with him so he doesn’t leave for someone who will.
Paula D 201

It’s true, men do look for sex and end up falling in love. It has happened to me twice. It all depends on how you decide to handle the whole sex thing with men. I’m not advocating that you give it up on the first date or the second or the third or however many dates you may have, far from it. But it’s easy to know if a man is very interested in you or not. Evan is right, if a man is very interested and attracted to you he will follow up very quickly for another date. You don’t have to do anything, just let him run with it. It won’t take long for you to know if he’s serious about you or not and if not, move on. You will know when the time is right to have sex with a man who does really want you and wants to please you.
Messing around with guys who are only after sex is a waste of your time if you’re looking for a relationship. If your happy to have sex with a guy without getting your feelings involved, that’s fine, just say thanks and leave and don’t give him another thought, it’s ok to do so. Tell him you forgot to feed your cat or something and say you have to go, bye-bye. Save your time and energy for a man who adores you and give him time to get there. My ex partner told me he knew I was the one for him as soon as he saw me and he did all the pursuing. He didn’t mind waiting for sex, I had to make up my mind first if I wanted to keep seeing him before anything happened. That was about 15 years ago and for reasons I won’t go into here we ended up parting. I’m a woman in my 50′s and somehow I forgot to trust my own instincts and reading Evan’s book reminded me of everything I had forgotten over the years and I have made just about every classic mistake with men since then. I don’t want to spend the rest of my life alone and I have been trying to fit unsuitable men into my life for the last couple of years and guess what? It doesn’t work. The next guy who adored me I met on the internet a couple of years ago. He was from overseas and here visiting his family. I knew he was going back home in about 3 weeks after I met him. I had a good time with him and didn’t think I would ever see him again so I didn’t worry about what I did with him. He asked me to stay in touch and after about 3 months he proposed. I said no as I didn’t want to leave home and go and live with him in another country. All I’m trying to say is you don’t have to work to get a man to love you, he either will or he won’t and there is nothing you can do if he doesn’t.
Selena 202

@Jen A.

You are far from alone in your views. But if you read the numerous posts on this blog you will see there are scores of women who equate sharing their bodies with an implied committment. Almost as if it is something they are owed. For them, it’s better they get the committment first, rather than continue assuming committment is automatically bestowed by the act of sex.

I’ve come to the idea that when to have sex should depend on how risk adverse an individual is.