Men Are Honest. You’re Just Not Listening.

I take my job as your personal trainer for love very seriously.

I try to honor and respect every woman who reads my emails and offer advice that is honest but not too brutal.

But I have to admit, from time to time, I get an email that makes me roll my eyes.

The most recent one was as mercifully short as it was inane. All it said was this:

“What does it mean when a man says he doesn’t want a relationship with you?”

To the best of my knowledge, this email was not a joke, but it had me thinking about other obvious questions that had only one possible answer.

“What does she mean when she says she’s not at all attracted to me?”

“What does she mean when she says she’s been faking her orgasms with me?”

“What does she mean when she says she’d rather jump out of a moving car than go out on another date with me?”

Now, to be fair, most women don’t give men such rude, point-blank answers.

What do you actually do instead?

You want to see where you stand with a man? Don’t pay attention to how hot your date was. Pay attention to how he handles himself in the next 24-48 hours.

You don’t return his calls in a timely fashion.

You date other men until you find one you like better.

You may go out with him again, but you’re not all that into it.

In short, to keep the peace and avoid conflict, you either do the slow fade (not calling him back immediately), or you continue to see him with reservations about your attraction and excitement.

Are you lying to him? Are you trying to hurt him? Are you a commitmentphobe who has no interest in marriage? Are you fickle and always looking for someone better?

I’m guessing the answer is no to all of the above.

Same with us. Except you have trouble seeing that.

Face it:

Men don’t have to say “I love you” to get you in bed.

Men don’t have to commit to you to get you in bed.

All men have to do to get you in bed is be cute, funny, tall, smart, and successful.

And if that’s the case, and we sleep with you based on attraction alone, regardless of whether we have actual FEELINGS for you, it tends to get a little dicey.

This is not me DEFENDING men; this is me, EXPLAINING men.

Listen, we’re just as shocked as you are when you sleep with us on a second date.

But, as you know, this doesn’t mean we want a relationship with you. It just means that we were having fun, we were tipsy, we took a chance, and we scored.

You want to see where you stand with a man? Don’t pay attention to how hot your date was. Pay attention to how he handles himself in the next 24-48 hours.

Understand that unless he REALLY likes you, the second you leave, he’s thinking about how he can get out of this.

If there have been no phone calls or dates where he takes you out and spends quality time (and money) on you, guess what?

You’re the booty call.

Understand that he DOESN’T want to hurt you.

Understand that he DOESN’T want you to fall in love with him.

Understand that he DOES want to keep sleeping with you because it’s in HIS self-interest.

And understand that everything he does next is designed to keep you INTERESTED in him without allowing you to fall in LOVE with him.

If he’s excited about you and wants you to be his girlfriend, he’ll call you the next day to say, “I had fun, when can I take you out to dinner this week?”

If he’s already planning his exit strategy, he’s not going to say, “I think we made a mistake. Good luck in life.” He’s more likely going to do something like this:

• A one-line text to follow up.
• A few days of silence afterwards because he doesn’t want you to get attached.
• Another text a few days later to say he’s thinking of you, but he’s been busy.
• A text a week later at 9pm to ask what you’re doing right now.

If there have been no phone calls or dates where he takes you out and spends quality time (and money) on you, guess what?

You’re the booty call.

And your guy is trying to find that delicate balance of keeping you in his life without you falling hard for him.

This is why I’m saying that men are being honest with you.

He’s not talking about meeting your family.
He’s not talking about taking you away to Paris.
He’s not talking about the names of your kids.
He’s not talking about love and marriage.
Hell, he’s not even talking about dinner and a movie!

He’s mostly keeping in touch with texts and hoping that you coast on your attraction to him without ever second guessing his lack of effort.

He hasn’t lied to you. He hasn’t promised you anything. He hasn’t done anything after sleeping with you that indicates that he’s serious about you.

So, reward this kind man for trying to protect your feelings by…

CUTTING HIM OFF ENTIRELY.

“It’s been fun knowing you, Dan, but I’m looking for a boyfriend, not a sexting buddy. Best of luck in the future.”

He’ll do one of two things:

1) Pick up the phone and call you because you have a burgeoning relationship that’s worth preserving and he can’t stand to let you go.

Or, in all likelihood…

2) He’ll text you, “That sux! Too bad. I understand though. Good luck to you!”

Really, men don’t want to hurt you. Just like you don’t want to hurt them.

So stop blaming them for sleeping with and texting you.

If you start listening to their silences, you can finally hear the whole truth.

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Comments:

  1. 61
    Saint Stephen

    @Androgynous
    Sharia, has to do with religion. Anyone who isn’t a Muslim can’t be bound by sharia laws. They can’t tell me how my girlfriend should dress… or if i should be able to fondle her in public places. I highly doubt the possibility that such laws can be passed on national level. That’s basically going against human freewill, something i know the American society never advocates.

    And what happens when it’s the woman who doesn’t want the relationship to continue post-sex (particularly because he was lousy in bed)? That means she’s simply gets stuck with him just by the reason of having sex. There’s definitely a downside of such legislation. 

  2. 62
    susan

    I’vee just taken Evans advice (again).  This time, framed with some humour – I’d like to offer you priority parking, but I need to be sure there’s no other traffic in the queue. 
    Time will tell.
    The last one ran away.  A lucky escape as it turns out.
    Yes, it’s all about boundaries and priorities. simple as that.

     

  3. 63
    Heather

    While I understand Amy’s point, I would like to point out that Karma can be a far better equalizer and teacher than many man-made consequences.

    Case in point: my ex husband had multiple addiction issues, a life threatening illness, and no job when he got violent with me.  When I kicked him out, he had to move in with his family.  He had no money, no job, and a car payment.  Me?  While I had debt that he stuck me with, I had a job, a place to live, friends, and a life.  And my health.  And I am moving forward.  He is still dealing with a potentially terminal illness, and from what someone told me recently, a big load of regret for what he did to me.

    I’m not saying I’m gloating per se, but it does make me feel vindicated that I don’t need to seek revenge or justice.  Karma did that for me.  After all, there is a saying: “The best revenge, is to live well.”  And I am doing just that.

    Yes, we ladies are participants in relationships and dating situations, but when we have truly been wronged, just let Karma take her course.  Take the high road.  Oh sure, if the guy comes around again to try nonsense, tell him off, but let Karma do the work.  She’ll make sure that the guy who mistreated you, gets his comeuppance.

  4. 64
    Ruby

    Heather #73, wrote “…let Karma do the work.  She’ll make sure that the guy who mistreated you, gets his comeuppance”. I wish it always worked that way! But for those of us who don’t have dads, big brothers, or linebacker guy pals to fight our battles for us, how about trusting our gut when a man tells us something that sounds off, or doesn’t sit well, and simply avoiding that man?
     
    Of course the laws and the courts should protect us from rape and abuse, but most dating situations are much more benign than that. Women need to be more vigilant when evaluating men, and I do believe that men give us signals early on when something isn’t right. That’s why Evan’s comment that we should believe the negatives, and ignore the positives, is so important to remember.  Oftentimes, though, we don’t want to believe that something is wrong with the guy we like so much. Waiting to have sex helps many of us to keep a clearer head about a man, and most men I’ve met have no problem with that. The ones who do were just going to bail anyway.

  5. 65
    Heather

    @ Ruby, oh I completely agree!  We definitely need to listen to our inner voice and be more selective of the men we date.  Even so though, despite doing everything “right” and following good advice and waiting to jump into bed, etc, there are still going to be guys who know how to play head games with women.  That was what I was referring to, with Karma.

    I’m actually rather hypervigilant with men.  If I even see a hint of an issue, the guy is gone now.  I don’t want to wait and find out 6 months from now, that the guy truly is a creep.  Heck, I won’t even give a guy a second chance if he doesn’t call when he says he will, before we meet in person.  I just tell them it’s not going to work for me, I need a guy who will follow through on what he says.  It’s caused a few guys to get snarky but I figure if they’re going to get snarky, well, then they weren’t the right guy for me anyways, because the right guy will call when he says he will call, will follow through on his promises.

  6. 66
    Karl R

    amy said: (#60)
    “Here’s the most short-term effective thing a woman can do to guard against being used sexually: Have good friends, including several large, male friends. Before sleeping with a man, bring him around to meet your friends and family. Do this a few times. I guarantee that a man who’s intent on using you will vanish, because he likes his face in one piece.”

    That will guarantee that no sensible, civilized man will ever want to get into a relationship with you.

    Let’s say your date threatened physical violence against any girlfriend who stole anything of his. (I’m assuming that you’d never consider stealing from your date/boyfriend.) Being an honest person, would you continue to date him? Or would you dump him immediately, because you don’t want to be in a relationship with anyone who considers physical violence to be a good response to theft?

    And even if I’d had sex with you on a first date, and you later introduced me to your large, violent friends, I’d still dump you immediately. I’ve been assaulted before. It’s not that scary. Dating an unstable woman who tries to get her friends to beat up ex-dates/ex-boyfriends, that’s scary.

    amy said: (#60)
    “I stayed blissfully safe throughout my first couple years of college because, unbeknownst to me, I had a phalanx of very large men looking out for me. If a guy asked me out, he’d get a visit from these guys, and receive the understanding that I’d be treated well. And I was. When I finally settled on a boyfriend, it was someone they all approved of. I didn’t know that — but the guy did.”

    So you had college friends who acted like adolescents? That’s not surprising. And you had a college boyfriend who accepted being treated like an adolescent by a group of adolescents? Still not surprising.

    Good luck finding an adult boyfriend who considers that to be tolerable behavior.

    amy said: (#60)
    “I think there’d be a hell of a backlash from frustrated men.
    I think women would suddenly be branded cockteases, bitches (even more often), etc. all over again, just like they were a few decades ago.
    I think rates of rape and other domestic violence would skyrocket, and that the law would shrug, suggesting that if you lead a man on, well, this will happen.”

    Every single one of my ex-girlfriends would disagree with you.

    I’ve met women who feel the same way you do, but I would never date them. I’m a decent human being. I don’t want to be in a relationship with anyone who thinks I’m not.

    You’re giving advice which would drive away decent men. Why should any woman listen to you?

    amy said: (#67)
    “Evan, you say ‘no amount of legislators is going to change that’. Well — y’know, it’s amazing what legislators have been able to change.”

    So you want legislation passed that prevents women from having sex with men on the first date (or first several dates) … in order to “protect women”?

    Most of my female friends/acquaintances want to be protected from government legislators who would dictate what they can/can’t do on a first date.

    You’re  being inconsistent. If you want the right to make your own decisions about sex (which I fully support), then you bear the responsibility for your own decisions. I’ve had sex and later decided it was a mistake. My mistake. I didn’t claim that it was that woman’s fault. (She  hadn’t done anything criminal, and she didn’t seem to regret her decision. Therefore, I don’t see any reason to fault her decision to have sex with me.)

    If you want to be protected from the consequences of bad decisions, make better decisions. That strategy worked well for me.

  7. 67
    Liz

    WTF is Amy talking about? I have decent reading comprehension skills and I didn’t get what she was going for at all. Especially the rape business. If EMK’s clients hold out a few extra months before having sex, rapes will go up??? WHAT THE HELL?????

  8. 68
    SS

    Evan, I know this is getting off topic a bit, but Dagaz @51 has a good point in terms of your timing formula and how it could be very counterproductive for a woman who sees a somewhat larger family in her future. Even if she sees two kids in her future, that could be a problem.
     
    Unless the woman meets Mr. Right when she’s 27, marries him at 30 and then starts childbearing at 32 (and this assumes there are no fertility problems), your advice about waiting 3 years between meeting and marriage really puts women behind the 8 ball in terms of family formation.
     
    I worked with dating coaches and read tons of advice (some from big names you’ve probably heard of), and nearly all said that a man over 30 who is serious will propose in a year. And then marriage will take place no more than a year after that. I know there are exceptions to the rule (and some women might not want to move that quickly), but there comes a point in time in which people should know what they want after a decade or more of being a single adult, sowing oats, establishing themselves, etc.
     
    I say this as well noticing the ever-growing group of female friends I have in their mid-30s who’ve been trying for 2-3 years for a child with little success. If they’re lucky, they’ll have one and maybe two. But what if they met Mr. Right at 35, married him at 38 and were trying for kids at that point? The odds are a lot worse for them.
     
    For those who don’t want kids, this obviously isn’t an issue, of course. But I do think Dagaz brings up an excellent point that’s often missed in these discussions about how waiting on a man — although it might seem prudent — can actually rob women of the most crucial time they have to bear children.
     
    Other than that, I agree on the waiting for sex part!

    1. 68.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      @SS “I worked with dating coaches and read tons of advice (some from big names you’ve probably heard of), and nearly all said that a man over 30 who is serious will propose in a year.”

      Please let me know who these dating coaches are and I will publicly chastise them. I can only assume that they’re all women because the advice is completely tone-deaf to male needs. And that’s the dangerous part of asking women to give you advice about men – the advice is based on wishful thinking. They tell you what they think men SHOULD do. I’m here to tell you what men WILL do.

      I will gladly acknowledge that there are exceptions to EVERY rule – yes, even the brilliant rules that I routinely make up. But my rules are based on reality, not fantasy. They’re based on the fact that men WILL sleep with you and never want to call you again, they WILL date you for a year and have no intention of getting married and – if they’re smart, they WILL want to take as much time as necessary to determine if plunking down $10K+ on a ring and signing a piece of paper that entitles you to half of his income is a good long term decision for him. Refusal to acknowledge and understand that is like being an ostrich and burying your head.

      The real issue here, SS, is the idea that you can entirely plan your own life. You can’t. You can try, but, as they say, “We plan. God laughs.” So was it ideal that I married a 39 year old woman even though we wanted multiple kids? No. But it’s all gonna work out just fine, thank you. As will your life, even if you don’t have four kids.

      As a woman, you can’t complain that men only want to date women 27-32 so that THEY have plenty of time to procreate and then turn around and say, at 35, “You better propose to me after one year or I’m out of here!” You are simply more attuned to YOUR needs than his. Which is normal. But it doesn’t mean it’s fair. And it doesn’t mean it’s effective.

      So you tell your other dating coaches that a MALE dating coach who understands men thinks that any man who proposes within a year is making a huge mistake – and is marrying either out of blind passion before the honeymoon wears off – or out of fear that his girlfriend will give him the ultimatum if he doesn’t put a ring on it. Either way is foolish.

      You can try to plan your life around having the big brood you want – with each kid being spaced two years apart – but men aren’t as concerned with such matters. He just wants to make sure that you’re cool, fun, easygoing, playful, supportive and that you handle money and conflict agreeably. And until you’ve gone through a few years together, it’s hard to tell all of this.

      You and your other coaches can try to convince yourselves that men should want to marry you after a year. I will continue to speak to women who actually want to hear what real men think.

  9. 69
    Laya

    Evan, in regards to length of courtship you are right but also a little wrong. According to a ground breaking study done by Ted Huston called the PAIR Project, couples who date 1-3 years have the best chance of a happy marriage. It was a longitudinal study that spanned 10 years following couples through marriage and in some cases divorce. You can read a very the fascinating article called “Truly, Madly, Deeply,” by Ted Huston. Just wanted to add my 2 cents.

    1. 69.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Great stuff, Laya. I’ll link to it on another day, but suffice to say that I found a lot more validation of my theories than I did contradiction. Here’s the paragraph that alluded to your point, although I didn’t see what you said about the 1-3 years. In fact, here’s what I saw.

      “The fact of a couple moving quickly toward marriage is not in and of itself a problem as much as what is driving the speed. (The average length of courtships in the study was two years, four months)…If a couple is still finding lots of reasons not to marry after four or more years, then that’s usually because they’re subconsciously picking up on problems or even thinking that they themselves aren’t suitable for marriage, ever.”

      So if the average courtship is 2 years and 4 months, that would seem that there are a number of people waiting over two years to decide to marry. And I agree that if you don’t have a ring before four years, it’s a sign of something else wrong. So we’re all on the same page. Thanks for sharing.

  10. 70
    Laya

    Or this article which was taken from the work of Ted Huston, “Marriage Success Related to How Long You Dated.”

  11. 71
    SS

    Evan,
    The main one is Janis Spindel. I can’t say I directly worked with her, but I met her at an event. Her mindset is that, based on dealing with men over 35, is that the ones who want to marry typically decide to propose within a year. Some might even want to propose earlier, but a year is typically standard.
    I have heard from men as well that in dealing with the over-30 population, it’s more common than many women think for a man to be ready to propose within 12 months. I first heard this from Bob Grant.
     
    If a man over 30 proposes within a year (give or take a few months maybe) and then there’s a year to plan the wedding, you still end up with courtship period of about 18-24 months, which is in the time frame mentioned by the male researcher that Laya mentioned. I consider the engagement period as part of the courtship process, as the couple is still not married yet.
     
    That’s the dangerous part of asking women to give you advice about men – the advice is based on wishful thinking. They tell you what they think men SHOULD do. I’m here to tell you what men WILL do.

    But what if they’re speaking from experience watching what their male clients did? (They aren’t just dating coaches, some are matchmakers.) And what their own husbands did? Because those men DID propose within a year and those women are still married after decades. Older women who advised me as well gave me advice based on what their husbands did. (Some proposed within 3-6 months and they’re still married 20+ years later.) My own husband did. In fact, I used to be one who believed men needed to take longer to decide they wanted to marry, and it was these women who showed me through example that perhaps I was allowing men to waste my time and to have a more strict standard. That was the advice that actually worked for me, and I was stunned to meet more than a few men who were ready to propose in no more than a year and to marry within 18-24 months of meeting a woman. And a year after I married, a relative of mine (in her 40s) married a man (in his 40s) after just EIGHT months of courtship. Now that’s too fast for my tastes, but that’s what he wanted to do and that’s what he did. They have a baby due in July — the first for both of them. I don’t know what might have happened if they had waited three years… well, she’d be 45 and perhaps unable to have any kids at all by that point.

    As a woman, you can’t complain that men only want to date women 27-32 so that THEY have plenty of time to procreate and then turn around and say, at 35, “You better propose to me after one year or I’m out of here!”

    Actually, I was one of those women ages 27-32 (age 31 to be exact) who dated a 37-year-old man who didn’t want to be rushed based on a woman’s biological clock, but he didn’t want to 4+ years to have a child either… or be about 46-47 when the last kid was born. We both wanted marriage and kids and didn’t see the need to wait any longer than a year to plan for our marriage and no longer than two years to actually marry. Maybe we’re just old school and traditional. Some people are like that.

    So you tell your other dating coaches that a MALE dating coach who understands men thinks that any man who proposes within a year is making a huge mistake – and is marrying either out of blind passion before the honeymoon wears off – or out of fear that his girlfriend will give him the ultimatum if he doesn’t put a ring on it. Either way is foolish.
    Okay, but I think I’d be a bad example for them, seeing that their advice worked…
    My only point is that, based on what I’ve seen, heard and experienced personally, I think the idea that a woman over 30 or 35 has to wait two years before getting a proposal and three years before getting married is flawed. Yes there are some good men over 30 who will want to wait that long and everything will work out just fine, but there are also perfectly good and normal men over 30 who will want to commit a year or two earlier than that and it won’t be because of an ultimatum or out of crazy honeymoon period lust. And their marriages won’t necessarily be any worse off because of it. And I do think that women who want children (especially a larger brood) should keep this in mind as they make their decisions about how long to stay in a non-marital relationship… because some of these men might have already made up their minds at the one-year mark that the woman they’re with is NOT who they plan on marrying… and those women’s time is being wasted.  

    1. 71.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      @SS – I was emailing Janis the other day. She’s a friend, but I’m certainly not in lockstep with her. In fact, I’m going to double down on what I said earlier:

      Yes, there are plenty of men who chose to propose within one year because they’re excited, positive, lonely, needy, desperate or feel a ticking clock. Janis knows them. You know them. I know them. And a percentage of them work out. Those are the stories you’re selectively citing. I can cite MANY more stories of people who thought they “just knew” that it was right getting married quickly and breaking up down the road because they hadn’t really seen the full picture yet. You’re just drawing on the selective anecdotes that support your case. And just because many 50 year old men DO propose within a year to their second wives doesn’t mean that’s a good plan. Especially since second marriages break up at a higher rate than first marriages.

      You seem to forget that I was a 36 year old guy who proposed to his 39 year old wife in 16 months PRECISELY because of the kids issue. BUT – a) I was a VERY experienced dater, b) I was a dating coach who understands these dynamics better than most single men, c) I was not making a decision because I was POSITIVE that she was my SOULMATE and that I HAD to do this (which is the way many people who rush to the altar decide.) d. I nearly had a panic attack after we were married because I moved so fast and still wasn’t sure that I did the right thing. e. I didn’t feel good about my decision – ironically – until six months into our marriage when we had our first miscarriage.

      Point is: you can take any one person’s story and extrapolate it to say, “See, it worked”! John played the lottery and won. “See, SOMEBODY wins the lottery!” It still isn’t a particularly smart strategy for building wealth.

      Whether you like it or not, SS, taking more time before getting married makes the inevitable decline of passion and the reality of mundane married life a lot more predictable and palatable. So while it’s not impossible to rush to the altar and get lucky that you chose well, it’s also not a good strategy.

      About the ONLY time that it MAY be advisable to get engaged before two years is when the woman is in her late thirties – any other time, it makes absolutely no sense. If your relationship is that strong, you will still be together in two to three years. No need to get married and find out that you weren’t as strong as you thought.

  12. 72
    Dagaz

    @Evan , quoting:
    ” You are simply more attuned to YOUR needs than his. Which is normal. But it doesn’t mean it’s fair. And it doesn’t mean it’s effective.”
     
    i would say, when woman is concerned about her biological clock, it’s not entirely only HER needs. because here we are talking about the health and well-being of the future children, and i suppose this fact should be among HIS needs a priori.
    otherwise why man would want a kids after all?
    if a man while dating and taking his time to fulfill only his fragile emotional needs, while there’s something more important for the BOTH potential partners, if he  will think that child-bearing, pregnancy, having a baby is only the woman’s problem – who would want him as a husband?
     

  13. 73
    Heather

    @ Evan:

    Heck, I’m in my later 30s and I feel zero need to rush.  Then again I have chosen to not have children, and since my first marriage ended so badly, and have recently witnessed my uncle walk out on my aunt after 35 years of marriage, all of a sudden.  I think I’d actually panic and hit the “eject” button on my current relationship if he asks me before we’ve had at least a year together!  He’s never been married and I know he wants marriage but I made it really clear that after what I have been through, I need alot of time to make sure I don’t get my heart broken one more time.  I’m still not sure if I completely trust him yet, and we have dated four months!  Not that he has done anything to warrant that, but it’s just me being extremely cautious and being burned too many times.

    And I think I may not be alone out there.  I think there could be a good few of us in our later 30s who don’t want to jump into something and want to protect our hearts, and make sure we can minimize drama.

  14. 74
    Susan61

    I made the mistake of falling for a man 3 years ago, who I unfortunately still work with, and one of my biggest regrets in life is sleeping with him before knowing where the relationship was going.   I had just gotten out of a 4.5 year relationship and apparently felt confident (he was very into me), cocky and just so happy to be attracted to someone.   We waited several weeks, and knew each other for 6 months but in retrospect, I was stupid and cavalier.  I have certainly learned my lesson and have now been celibate for well over 3 years.  The whole thing has been the worst experience of my adult life.  It isn’t easy and I still haven’t ‘stopped beating myself up.  I know it’s not helping me but whenever I read articles like this, it’s just a reminder how different women and men are.  It’s always a risk. 
     
    Now I ask myself:  how much longer do I want to be celibate?  Can I be celibate for the rest of my life?  Can I have a casual relationship while I hope to meet someone I can have a real relationship with?  I am attractive and still look pretty good at 50 but I know the odds are stacked high against me, and no I’m not interested in dating a 65 year old.  

  15. 75
    Karl R

    Susan61 said: (#87)
    “I made the mistake of falling for a man 3 years ago, who I unfortunately still work with, and one of my biggest regrets in life is sleeping with him before knowing where the relationship was going.” [...] “The whole thing has been the worst experience of my adult life.  It isn’t easy and I still haven’t ‘stopped beating myself up.”

    Maybe this is an example of the difference between men and women, but I’m not understanding why this was a horrible experience that you’re beating yourself up over.

    Six years ago I fell for a lady in the choir I sing in. After three months of dating, we had sex. I wanted the relationship to go further, she didn’t. I still see this woman sometimes at church.

    To you, your relationship was the worst experience of your adult life. My experience with this woman was largely positive, with a somewhat disappointing ending. We’re still friends, and my fiancée has met her.

    Sometimes relationships work out. Most of the time they don’t. I don’t beat myself up for being optimistic about where a relationship is going. I don’t beat myself up for wanting to have sex with this woman, or for enjoying the relationship while it lasted.

    It sounds like you’ve let your experience deter you from getting into relationships since then. I took a brief break, then got back out there.

    Susan61 asked: (#87)
    “Can I be celibate for the rest of my life?”

    Certainly, but you don’t sound thrilled about that idea.

    Susan61 asked: (#87)
    “Can I have a casual relationship while I hope to meet someone I can have a real relationship with?”

    That depends. By “casual relationship” do you mean casual dating? Or do you mean casual sex?

    Casual dating is frequently the precursor to a real relationship. If your goal is a real relationship, I’d highly recommend getting out and dating.

    Casual sex tends to interfere with developing a real relationship. Put yourself in your potential partner’s shoes. How would you feel if you were dating a man who had relationship potential, and you discovered that during your first two weeks of dating, he had been having sex with another woman?

    Susan61 said: (#87)
    “I am attractive and still look pretty good at 50 but I know the odds are stacked high against me,”

    I know a lot of men and women in their 50s and 60s who are in serious relationships or getting married.

    The odds are stacked against anyone (regardles how young) who has given up trying.

    Susan61 said: (#87)
    “no I’m not interested in dating a 65 year old.”

    I wouldn’t say I was interested in dating a woman 15 years older than me. But when I met an amazing woman who was 16 years older than me, I wasn’t stupid enough to rule her out solely for that reason.

    Now she’s my fiancée.

  16. 76
    Susan61

    Yeah, I know Karl.  Actually I was in a mini-depression when I posted that, due to a glass of wine after work, hormones, yes, hormones, reading some of the posts on this blog and feeling lonely and a bit overwhelmed with some stuff going on.  I’ve snapped out of it and am enjoying some whole wheat pizza I just made.  But this particular guy, I dunno.  I am friends with a couple of men who dumped me, I mean – good friends.  Lifelong friends.  This guy was different.  Can’t explain in this medium, I’m sure you understand. 
     
    Haven’t completely given up trying  – in fact have had several suitors in the last year but I am not interested in anything physical with them.  I’m hopeful, haven’t thrown in the towel yet and thanks, your post actually buoyed my spirits.  :-)

  17. 77
    Karina

    I said this once and I’ll say it again. PLEASE STOP TRYING TO “EDUCATE” WOMEN ON WHAT MEN WANT or what we should do to “tackle” them. Right, sleeping with them without getting any commitment prior is a crap idea – but these days even if you see proper signs of commitments it doesn’t even have to mean much. For example,  I slept with my most recent bf after almost 2 months and having been introduced to his family! Did I get much from him afterwards? Yeah, I see him once a week, we keep in touch but I honestly don’t think this is going to blossom. PLEASE EDUCATE MEN TO SEE WOMEN AS HUMAN BEINGS, not treasure hunt games etc. If I am sexually attracted to someone, why do I have to setup some kind of a big challenge for him to get into my pants if that’s exactly where I want him to be?!? Why do I have to wait, and pretend to be somewhat of a prude? Why can’t men understand we are not just sex objects? Why is male perception so limited that they just cannot see pass this? They cannot respect a woman after having sex with her. What’s up with that? SOMEONE PLEASE EDUCATE MEN!!!!!

    1. 77.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      @Karina. Why would I stop trying to educate women on what men want? It’s my entire business model. It’s what they really want to know. And I try to do it with honesty, integrity, compassion and humor. If you’re looking for the person who is going to change how men think, you’re looking at the wrong guy.

    2. 77.2
      Morgan

      @Karina
      It doesn’t have much to do with educating men I don’t think. It’s biology. As Evan and others I have read have stated, “Men look for sex and fall in love”. I’ve read this from several dating coaches. I also love what Sherry Argov writes which is “Men don’t see clearly before sex and see clearly after, women see clearly before sex and don’t see clearly after”.
      Put those 2 things together and what Evan is telling us very true. and wise, imo. Educating men how to treat women isn’t what this is really about. Even guys with great character will fall into the ‘men look for sex and find love’ category.
      Bottom line, for me anyway, is I will, in the future, wait to have sex until I know WHO the guy is. And if we’ve decided to become exclusive. It doesn’t always keep me safe from begin let down or hurt, but I know myself. If I have sex with a guy I get emotionally attached. It’s also biology for women that this occurs. At that point I don’t see as clearly as I did before I had sex with him. Which is why I’m in a situation currently where altho he wanted to be exclusive etc I had sex too early before I saw his true character and now I’m having some trouble extricating myself from the RS. A lot of that is because I’m attached and invested emotionally whereas had I waited I’d probably have broken this off 6 weeks ago when I started to see the subtle signs of anger, meanness etc.
      I’m not sure I’m getting my point out exactly. I just know for me that waiting is best and waiting even past exclusive is good because I need to see who the guy is. I used to believe I should be able to do anything I wanted. Have sex early on etc if I felt like it…double standard and all that….but I had to face reality. Evan is telling us reality I believe. Thanks.

  18. 78
    nathan

    “Why can’t men understand we are not just sex objects? Why is male perception so limited that they just cannot see pass this? They cannot respect a woman after having sex with her. What’s up with that?”
     
    Karina, there is no single “male perception” out there. We all think and see things differently. I completely agree with you that too many men seem to have tunnel vision around women, and that our society is still littered with sexism.
     
    At the same time, there are also plenty of men who aren’t operating on tunnel vision, and who do see women as much more than sex objects. We also want to have healthy sexual lives like anyone else. Which means that sexual attraction is part of the equation when it comes to dating. Women need to stop assuming that when men are interested in sex with them, it instantly means they’re thinking of nothing else. Why can’t we just admit we all want good sex as part of the equation, and then go from that baseline to figuring out how to respect each others’ needs and boundaries?
     
    Since I read a lot of dating blogs, as well as write one, I get to see the conversations and thinking going on out there. One thing that is pretty clear to me is that more and more women are into casual sex, and don’t seem to have any qualms about dumping guys after sex if they decide they want to move on for what reason. Or keeping guys around to sleep with when they either are single or are not sure about the men they are dating. It’s probably true that more men than women are doing this kind of thing, but the numbers are growing closer to even by the day.
     
    Commitments these days are sometimes so tentative that the slightest blow of wind can bust them up. I tend to be a person who resists hard and fast rules about dating, so I don’t agree with Evan’s waiting rules 100%. What I do agree with, which is behind his rules, is the idea of having clear boundaries. Knowing where you stand, and what you need to feel good about yourself and your relationships, and then operating from there. You still will get hurt sometimes, but much less than if you just float about and respond to any sexy thing showing some interest.
     
     
     
     

  19. 79
    Nicole

    @Karina, you can only advise people who want advice.  

    If you find the history of this particular business model, you’ll see that at one point, the business was supposed to be about coaching men, only they weren’t buying.

    You take offense b/c you think that giving advice to women means that only women have to do work.  All it means here is the the focus of this particular coach is women, and it comes from the perspective of a straight man who dated a lot of women.  The point is that this coaching lets you know when you should stop beating your head against the wall with the wrong man, or how you can stop chasing the wrong things.  This isn’t your friend telling you what they think men mean, which let’s face it is either just wrong or is sugar-coated to tell you what you want to hear.  You know that it takes a lot for a woman to tell another woman to pack it in b/c he’s just not that into you.

    Why does it make you so mad?  Why should someone pursue a business model that was proven to be a weaker source of income?

    Also, it is really empowering to think how much you do control.  You can’t control other people but you can control how you respond to it and avoid a lot of wasted time and heartache.

    When men’s questions are published, they get told the truth and are advised to make changes.  

    I think it’s a good advantage to be reminded by a man how men think and how you in this case you shouldn’t rationalize things, b/c I know my friends and I rationalize really ridiculous things. This is like a friendly “snap out of it” that we all need.  Your female friends tell you what you want to hear, which is usually not the truth.

  20. 80
    Karl R

    Karina said: (#90)
    “PLEASE STOP TRYING TO ‘EDUCATE’ WOMEN ON WHAT MEN WANT” [...] “PLEASE EDUCATE MEN TO SEE WOMEN AS HUMAN BEINGS,”

    Evan spends his time educating women about how men think. I spent about four straight years dating different women. To the best of my knowledge, NONE of those women had heard of Evan, or read any of his advice.

    Therefore, if my date didn’t feel that spark of chemistry on a first date, I didn’t get a second date. If the woman was 6’0″, I didn’t get a first date (I’m 5’11″), because she would hold out for someone at least 6’2″. My first Match.com date was with a woman who grilled me for 90 minutes.

    Evan has been giving women advice for over six years and not one woman has treated me better because of it.

    But over the last five years I’ve gotten a lot of benefit from Evan’s advice. I read his advice, figured out how the same advice applied to men, then applied that advice to my own life.

    Evan can’t change the way that women (or men) think. He can’t change the way women (or men) treat their dates. But I can change the way I think, and the way I treat my dates.

    But you received no benefit from me changing. I received that benefit.

    (And to reinforce Nicole’s comment (#93) about Evan’s business model, I just read Evan’s free advice. I didn’t pay for it.)

    Karina said: (#90)
    “these days even if you see proper signs of commitments it doesn’t even have to mean much.”

    Let’s say you introduce a boyfriend to your family, and you have sex with him, but you later discover that he is completely unsuitable to be your husband and/or the father of your children. Do you feel obligated to marry him? Would you rather dump the guy immediately, or marry him and divorce him several years down the road?

    His commitment to you is no different than your commitment to him. The difference, in this case, was that he decided that you’re not a good long-term prospect before you made that decision about him. It’s highly likely that the shoe has been on the other foot with some of your previous boyfriends.

    Karina said: (#90)
    “If I am sexually attracted to someone, why do I have to setup some kind of a big challenge for him to get into my pants if that’s exactly where I want him to be?!?”

    You don’t.

    You can have sex on the first date, if that’s what you want to do. Regardless of when you have sex with him, it will have almost no effect on whether he eventually dumps you.

    To put it another way: if you wait for sex, you’ll still have the same number of ex-boyfriends. You’ll just be reducing the number of ex-boyfriend you’ve had sex with.

    Karina said: (#90)
    “Why can’t men understand we are not just sex objects? Why is male perception so limited that they just cannot see pass this? They cannot respect a woman after having sex with her.”

    If a man sees you as a sex object after sex, it’s because he saw you as a sex object before you had sex. If a man doesn’t respect you after sex, it’s because he didn’t respect you before sex.

    And since this seems to bother you, perhaps you might want to take the time to figure out whether a man respects you, or whether he sees you as a sex object before you decide to have sex with him.

  21. 81
    Karina

    @Evan : I completely understand where you’re coming from, I did not mean to direct my post against you – just a general thought I thought I would share.

    Obviously men would not buy into this kind of a product, but think the view should be perpetuated in the media. Think they got it all slightly wrong. Media say casual sex is cool for women, and being disrespectful towards women that engage in casual sex is OK for men. Media promote women that start off their careers as prostitutes and porn stars, but also men who cheat and sleep around with these women. I wonder why are there no infidel successful women in the media and half-naked disreputable men? I’m all for sexual freedom, but it’s done in that female-demeaning way and men are ALLOWED to just carry on with their caveman, separationist mindset. Honestly, it is XXI century and men should move on from seeing women as some alien sex beings from Mars that they need to play games with.

    @Nathan – thank you for your excellent response. It’s good to hear some men are over this silly behaviour. 

    “Commitments these days are sometimes so tentative that the slightest blow of wind can bust them up.” – my thoughts exactly. You can wait around, play games and set out challenges for the guy you like, but if he’s not right for you and can’t see pass your sexuality the thing is doomed.

    “I tend to be a person who resists hard and fast rules about dating, so I don’t agree with Evan’s waiting rules 100%. What I do agree with, which is behind his rules, is the idea of having clear boundaries. Knowing where you stand, and what you need to feel good about yourself and your relationships, and then operating from there.” That’s what I like about the blog, too. It doesn’t tell women to just be cool at all times, not clingy etc but eventually claim their own ground and speak up.

  22. 82
    Ruby

    Karina #90
    <<…even if you see proper signs of commitments it doesn’t even have to mean much>>
     
    The only real sign of commitment is a conversation where the man says he wants to be your boyfriend. Even if a man isn’t seeing other people, it doesn’t mean it’s an official relationship.
     
    Like asking for directions, men are less comfortable asking for help, but maybe that is changing. Judging by the number of men who regularly comment here, I think some men do want advice on understanding women. Christie Hartman, who sometimes comments on this blog, has just published a book on dating for men, so I’m guessing she thinks there is a market for advice for men, written by a woman and trained psychologist. Christie’s advice is excellent, btw!
     

  23. 83
    Karina

    @Karl: From what you said it seems you think I’m bitter cuz I’ve been taken advantage of, or something along those lines. You’d be surprised to find out *I am* actually disgusted in men I sleep with as one nite stands (happened twice so far) and would NEVER want to see them again. Not because they are unattractive, but cuz I think they’re dogs for sleeping with me so quick and if I look at them afterwards I honestly feel sick to my stomach that I let myself go and let them somehow BEND my strong wil cuz of their sexiness, even if they text or call afterwards asking what happened I just cannot talk to them anymore. I am angry at this culture because I FEEL THIS WAY, because I know I would not be respected if I have sex on first date and try to then have a relationship with a certain person, it frustrates me to no end as I am a very sexually driven young lass!  I’m not one of the naive women out there and I usually very honest with myself and would never allow anyone to make me into a booty call. But that is what annoys me – that men cannot have wicked sex with you and bond the same time. They have some pre-conceptions of my self-respect etc. But I want to shag them, and then talk about life, and then sip wine watching the sunset. What’s up with that?

    As to this new guy, I still think he likes me but I need more attention than once or twice a week meet up and a phone call every other day. That’s my problem.

    Nevertheless Karl – I am grateful for this observation: 

    “If a man sees you as a sex object after sex, it’s because he saw you as a sex object before you had sex. If a man doesn’t respect you after sex, it’s because he didn’t respect you before sex.”

    If this is so – why is there a belief the longer he knows you prior having sex the more likely he is to respect you? I’d love the world to be the way you see it, but I honestly think guys associate respect and luck of thereof to the sex-wait (apparently – the longer the better!) And tis is quite frankly annoying. I have my needs you know! I’m not 18 anymore – 25 now, not a virgin, I know what I ilk and I want to get it quick. Why does it have to hinder my chances for a loving relationship?

  24. 84
    Katarina Phang

    Wow Karina, what an internal conflict you have!  Are you saying you don’t like men judging us for having sex too soon (on first dates), yet you can’t help feeling disgusted by these “dogs” who made you want to have sex with them early?  It seems to me you are judging yourself here.  It’s more of your personal belief than reality.  You project on the world based on your belief.

    Personally, I don’t hold this to be true and as such the world is responding to me differently to you.  Believing is seeing.

  25. 85
    Katarina Phang

    And Karina #90, I actually agree with you.  And that’s what I have been doing…there are no rules in terms when to have sex.  When it feels right, it feels right.  The difference is I don’t believe that men stop respecting us after sex.  It never happened to me that way.  I would suggest you change that perspective and actually see how guys respond positively to you before or after sex.  I have had enough meaningful relationships (committed or casual) after (early) sex.  

    It’s not the sex, it’s the whole enchilada of your being: your intelligence, personality, wit, character, attitude, kindness, generosity, chemistry, easy-going-ness, etc… 

    IMO, a woman thinks/believes men see her as a sex object only because that’s actually what she feels about herself deep down.  Secure women with high self-esteem don’t feel that way about themselves.  We bring a lot to the table, that’s what most men want to know other than sex.

  26. 86
    Karl R

    Karina asked: (#97)
    “why is there a belief the longer he knows you prior having sex the more likely he is to respect you?”

    Because if I only see you as a sex object, and if I have no respect for you, I will not take you out twice a week for two or three months on the off-chance that we might have sex.

    If I’ve stuck around that long, I actually enjoy conversing with you.

    Karina said: (#97)
    “You’d be surprised to find out *I am* actually disgusted in men I sleep with as one nite stands (happened twice so far) and would NEVER want to see them again. Not because they are unattractive, but cuz I think they’re dogs for sleeping with me so quick”

    This is a little difficult to explain, but you’ve just told me what is hindering your chances for a loving relationship.

    And it has nothing to do with sex.

    I grew up in the Christian church, so my explanation ties into Christian belief. However, the meaningful part is psychology, not theology.

    The second part of the great commandment says, “Love others as you love yourself.” As a teenager, this confused me. Based on everything else I had read in the bible, it seemed to me that it should be more holy to love other people more than I loved myself.

    Like many teenagers, I suffered from a fair share of self-loathing. To a certain extent, I was aware of this. Therefore, it also occurred to me that it should be easier to obey this commandment if I loved myself less.

    Fortunately, I grew up.

    I learned how to love myself. I learned how to forgive myself. And then I made an important discovery that made the great commandment make sense:

    Until I learned how to love myself, I was incapable of loving others. And by learning how to better forgive myself, I became more capable of forgiving others.

    You’re disgusted with yourself for being fallible. Therefore, you’re disgusted with everyone else who is fallible. You’re unable to forgive yourself for making a very human decision (I don’t even necessarily see it as a mistake), so you’re unable to forgive others who made potentially bad decisions.

    If a man found you disgusting, would you want to be in a relationship with him? If a man couldn’t forgive you when you made a mistake, would you be able to have a good relationship with him?

    Learn to love yourself. Learn to forgive yourself. Until you do, you’re just wasting time.

    (By the way, until I actually learned to love myself, I didn’t realize how bad I was at it.)

    Karina asked: (#97)
    “I honestly feel sick to my stomach that I let myself go and let them somehow BEND my strong wil cuz of their sexiness,”
    “I am angry at this culture because I FEEL THIS WAY,”

    If you want to ensure that people don’t respect you, keep blaming others for what you choose to do and how you choose to feel.

    Before you start making a hundred excuses about how others make you feel, let me give you a personal example.

    My fiancée is 16 years older than me. Despite (or because of) Hollywood couples with a similar age spread, there’s a significant social stigma against our relationship.

    The majority of people would say there’s something wrong with me for dating her, there’s something wrong with her for dating me, and there’s something seriously wrong with our relationship.

    Those people don’t know me. Why should I care what they think?

    The people who know me take their cues from me. Seriously. If I was embarrassed about my fiancée’s age, they would assume there was something wrong with it. Since it’s a non-issue to me, they assume it’s no big deal.

  27. 87
    nathan

    Karina, I have only slept with two women on the first date in my life, and I’m over 10 years older than you are. And you know what, the first time, I felt the same sort of shame and guilt about it. Couldn’t even get myself to go out with her again, not because there was anything wrong with her, but because of my own perceptions about sex in general. I had taken in far too much cultural baggage/religious baggage around sex, and essentially had spent my 20s feeling bad about my desires. 
     
    It really took a lot of self-reflection to recognize that regardless of how long I choose to wait, I have to feel good about my sexuality. And I have to have a sense of what my boundaries are. In my experience, abut half the time I’m the one slowing things down sexually. Which may sound surprising, but men aren’t always hot and ready for sex at the drop of a hat. 
     
    You have to do the work to unlearn the garbage that our culture offers when it comes to sexuality. Men have a different set of garbage to deal with, and we guys need to step up on our end. However, even if you end up meeting a man who has broken through some of that, and actually respects you, it won’t matter if you still think the way you currently do. Karl made some excellent points, as did Katarina. The more secure you are in who you are, the less cultural garbage and the opinions of others will matter. And the more likely you’ll know when to have sex with who without so much concern.

  28. 88
    Nicole

    @Karina,
    Waiting to sleep with someone isn’t so much about building a man’s respect for you.  It’s about giving yourself time to know why a man is showing interest in you.  And honestly, after a lot of first dates, neither person is totally sure about that.  As Karl said, a man who only want to sleep with you won’t put in the effort and won’t act like a boyfriend for a several months while you don’t sleep with him, and it will be really obvious, but if you sleep with someone after a first or second date, you haven’t given yourself to weed out the people who aren’t looking for anything serious.

    If I have a business and I hire the first person who comes through my door without properly interviewing him, reviewing his resume, and possibly contacting his references, I COULD luck out and get a great employee but I shouldn’t be surprised if the person winds up being lazy, incompetent, and unreliable, b/c I didn’t do enough to figure out what kind of employee he would be.  

    So you MIGHT luck out and have first date sex with your soul mate and get married and live happily ever after but you haven’t given yourself any chance to learn about him.  

    And can you blame any man who takes you up on easy sex BEFORE he has made up his mind about how he feels about YOU? 

    Do you get that this behavior is all about you controlling your own behavior?  If you know a man long enough, he’ll show you everything you need to know before you decide how much of yourself to invest, b/c most people just don’t need to go in the the “long con” for sex.

    And a relationship that runs its natural course doesn’t turn into a scam on the part of the man or the woman if either party decides this isn’t a keeper for them.  It just becomes another former relationship. 

    If you want a roll in the hay, have it, but don’t put that on the men that you sleep with.  No one tricked you into that.  That was a choice and you should own it or keep your clothes on.  How can an adult woman act like someone she rushes into bed with is somehow at fault for that?

  29. 89
    Karina

    I value all of your opinions guys, you definitely gave me some food for thought. Nevertheless, I don’t entirely agree with the idea that you either get respect or don’t get respect from a guy right from the start and that his outlook doesn’t change. Men do t start to treat you differently once you’ve kept them waiting for a while. What you saying actually defies logic, and going with @nathan’s metaphor, what kind of an employee would appreciate and respect a job that was just given to him, if he did not even have to interview for it first etc? Think about this.

    I might well have some internal conflict going on, I’ve also been raised up as a Christian within a very conservative environment, hence the issues. Nevertheless, I’m definitely not delusional/living in my head (as some of you seem to suggest.) I do think there’s still a permission within this society to treat promiscuous women with decreased respect. No woman in power could sleep around and still be respected within this society, and i.e. run a country like Berlusconi in Italy!

    So once more- thank you for all your interesting responses.

  30. 90
    Karina

    @Karl “And can you blame any man who takes you up on easy sex BEFORE he has made up his mind about how he feels about YOU?” – you make an argument for men liking you or disliking you regardless of the sex-timing, yet you then go on to say stuff about “easy sex” and taking me up on it ?

    What “easy sex”?  By saying that you suggest “easy sex” is somewhat of less value that sex the guy has to work for. And again we’re back to the treasure hunt and waiting strategies. You see for me, it’s not that I offer the man some kind of a bargain and he takes that *easy bonus* – I just like him and want to get physical.
    But it seems that for the men the “easy sex” (as you see it) is somewhat an obstacle in forming a bond with someone. Even the way you refer to it suggests you’re displeased with women who have sex early on in a relationship, and my question is why? You could have said “early-stage sex” but you choose “easy.”

    Also you say: “BEFORE he has made up his mind about how he feels about YOU” again suggesting that I should give him time, construct a game plan so he can FIGURE OUT if I’m worthy? And if I don’t give him that time, I’m somewhat less worthy?

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