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It wasn’t just the way he looked. It was the way he listened.
The way he walked and smelled and smiled.
The way the whole night flew by with effortless conversation.
Then again, it could have been the physical chemistry, which was off the charts, leaving you in breathless anticipation of your next date.
It’s not like you’re crazy or anything. You just know what you want.
You want HIM.
And then he calls and makes plans another time.
Uh oh. You’ve just had your first hit of the hormone we call oxytocin.
You have a second date that’s as good as the first, and, giving into the moment, you go home with him and come pretty darned close to sleeping with him.
The next morning, you have no regrets. In fact, you’ve never been so sure of something in your entire life. This FEELS GOOD.
He calls again three days later to set up your third date for the following weekend.
You wonder why he waited three days, but you say yes, anyway.
He doesn’t call you for the next five days before your date.
You start to despair, but you know you’re going to be seeing him on Saturday night.
He’s cooking for you. At his place. All you have to do is bring the wine.
You bring two bottles.
You barely remember the meal, which is just a prelude to what comes after.
You come after. Three times.
And now you’re hooked.
Uh oh. You’ve just had your first hit of the hormone we call oxytocin.
And since it’s got a hold on you, it’s really hard to think straight.
All you can do is obsess how you want more of the drug.
But where is your dealer?
You haven’t heard from him for a few days. You’d think that after your big night, he would follow up to say that he had fun and he wants to see you right away.
He hasn’t. And he won’t.
Because he doesn’t want to see you right away.
He wants to see you when he wants to see you… every other week.
He wants to call you when he wants to call you… never. It seems he prefers texting.
The man who will be your boyfriend OFFERS to take down his profile and become exclusive.
Still, you ignore the fact that he makes no effort to commit because of the powerful effects of the drug. Months go by where you hear from him sporadically. And while you know this isn’t a healthy relationship, you still put up with it.
As a result, you never get the relationship you desire.
Did I just describe your last relationship? The one before that, perhaps?
If the above scenario sounds all too familiar, do yourself a favor, and tattoo this on your wrist:
The man who will be your boyfriend IS enthusiastic about you. The man who will be your boyfriend WILL call you all the time. The man who will be your boyfriend OFFERS to take down his profile and become exclusive.
And when you’re around a man like that, there is nothing to think about. No games to play. No need to worry about what he’s thinking. No questions about where this is going.
When you’re with your boyfriend, everything should be crystal clear.
And if it’s NOT crystal clear within, say, 2 months or so, you’re probably not with your boyfriend. That’s enough time for him to figure out if he wants to give your relationship a shot.
If you’re in that limbo phase with a guy who gives you that irrational oxytocin high and you just can’t let go, despite the overwhelming evidence that this is doomed, do yourself a favor and call him right now.
Make it short. Make it sweet. Make it simple.
“It’s been great getting to know you these past few months, but I’m looking for a boyfriend, not a once-a-week booty call. So I’m calling this off and want to wish you all the best in finding the woman of your dreams. I’m going to find my man. Please, lose my number.”
If he begs for you, he might be your boyfriend.
If he lets you go, congratulations. You’re free to find the man who treats you the way you deserve — with enthusiasm, consistency, and kindness.
And now that you’ve purged yourself of the man who will never be your husband, you need to jump start your love life from scratch.
Check out Finding the One Online right now and see how it can attract the right man into YOUR life.
Susan61 says
Bingo! Thanks Evan!!!
Jules says
Evan,
BEST advice EVER! It’s so easy to get caught up in the emotional high of that elusive connection with a man because the time you DO spend together seems so amazing, at least to you. You find every possible way to justify the fact that you’ve been checking your phone incessantly for possible missed texts or calls. This should be the first red flag because you’re absolutely right – you won’t have to do that with a man who is into you; he will make sure you know that he is!
Thank you, thank you, thank you for always finding a new way to relate and solve the agony that results from the ambiguity of dating a man who is just not that into you!
Anonymous says
Ugh. I’ve dated this one. She spent more time with her parents than she did with me over the course of our one year relationship and they live out of state! Even talked to them everyday on the phone every single day, but not me. I’m so glad I’m out of that dysfunction and free to find someone who is emotionally available. Don’t waste your time with these people. Someone who values you will make the time to nurture you and your relationship.
Anonymous2 says
I relate with your comment. I call my parents everyday and had a awfull “something” with “someone” who acted just like the guy on the story. He never had time for me, “, we only talked on the weekend and he always called me his “friend”. Giving that escenario, I got really dissapointed and the thing just ended,
I just wanted to say that being close to your parents does not mean that you are not willing to invest in a relationship, In fact, both parties must show interest.
Lily2 says
Oh dear! This brings back painful memories of my descent into Oxcytocin withdrawal Hell! It took me 4 yrs and a 12 step program to finally walk away from that drug. You’re right Evan, it is a drug, and the guy was my dealer for sure!
Some men are better at delivering this than others. I was totally blindsided, and I’m in my 40’s!
Never again, it’s not worth it!
J9 says
Huhm, that may be wrong conclusion. How about a ‘dealer’ who adores you and spends massive amounts of time with you? Best of all worlds. don’t give up on the ‘drug’ – it’s the way our bodies are design. Give up on the ‘dealer’ that won’t be your partner.
Joe says
Oh, so oxytocin is the “chemistry” that women are constantly seeking!
Mia says
While I don’t sleep with men right away or make myself too available, I’ve had plenty of experiences with men who don’t step up to be my bf and keep me at arms length. And I’ve just never had the balls to do Evan’s goodbye speech – I may continue accepting dates with other men, but never cut the other guy off either. But the more insight I get from my male friends, and the more I read this blog, the more I’m coming to understand that the most powerful thing a woman can do is say no. In a sweet but firm, maybe even humorous way, put men in their place for going a week without calling, setting boundaries about sex, not jumping through their hoops. The problem is that so many of us are conditioned to just not say anything, to always say yes, and the guy assumes its appropriate behavior and we’re cool with it, or that we lack the self esteem to assert ourselves for the relationship we want.
Jane says
Evan, what about when you meet a guy, and wait 2 or 3 months to sleep with him, doesn’t the effect of oxcytocin still some into play? And just because you wait, the guy won’t necessarily stick around at that point anyway. There are no guarantees of anything. Also, I’ve read that men are not immune to the effects of oxcytocin either. Your advice in this entry is sound, but sooner or later, people sleep together, right? So how is a woman (or a guy) going to protect themselves from the effects of this “drug” ?
Evan Marc Katz says
Jane, if you wait until a man chooses to be exclusive with you before you have sex, you’re far less likely to sleep with him and then worry about whether he’s going to call you again.
You don’t mute your own oxytocin; you manage your risk by only sleeping with commitment-oriented men.
Lisa J says
I don’t normally agree with you, however I do agree here. No sex until a commitment has been made. If he leaves…you saved yourself heartache.
Patti says
Unfortunately, this is true. They can even lie and tell you they love you when they actually don’t. It amazes me that some people think nothing of messing with your head! Nothing! It’s not fair, but I guess that IF, in fact, I ever meet the right one, it’s because of these jerks that I’ll actually appreciate him more and realize what I have.
Lily2 says
Jane, this is the risk you have to take, there are no guarantees. The situation i describe above, was w/ a man who waited 3 months for me to feel ready to have sex with him. He called every day, said he was looking for a long term relationship, and was very into me. I was hooked on the delicious physical chemistry we shared (even before sex), regardless of compatibility etc. I now know what the flags are, and will walk away next time, if I feel hooked and it’s not the right guy. I call it withdrawal because it is!… and it’s a fact of life, for me at least.
Spiral says
“Please lose my number.” Love it!! I’m going to use that. Thanks, Evan. 🙂
Karl R says
Jane asked: (#7)
“what about when you meet a guy, and wait 2 or 3 months to sleep with him, doesn’t the effect of oxcytocin still some into play?”
You still might get attached to the boyfriend who lasts 4-5 months, but you avoid getting attached to the boyfriend who lasts 2-3 weeks. (I had a lot of relationships that only lasted a few dates. I have far fewer that lasted a few months or more.)
Jane said: (#7)
“And just because you wait, the guy won’t necessarily stick around at that point anyway.”
That’s true. You’re not increasing his odds of sticking around. You’re decreasing that chances that you’ve had sex with him before he bails.
Jane asked: (#7)
“So how is a woman (or a guy) going to protect themselves from the effects of this ‘drug’?”
You don’t protect yourself from feeling the chemical high. You develop the ability to recognize it for what it is, and make your decisions accordingly.
Instead of ignoring noncommittal behavior because you’re infatuated with a man, you protect yourself by ignoring the infatuation and dumping him because he’s noncommittal.
lala says
these are good answers Karl!
Jane, guys will always want to have sex at some point. This is normal. Waiting doesn’t equate to staying. Some guys will not wait and just leave right away and thank them for doing so because they didnt need to waste much of your time to reveal their true intentions. However, there are some who can wait even if they are not really into you. These are the types that wait to earn your trust or stay because they’re challenged but then leave after they what they want. Some people are good at deceiving so you really need to be careful. Best advice I could give is DO IT ONLY WHEN YOU ARE READY. Ready meaning if he leaves or not, you will not regret that you had sex with him. If you know that if you will sleep with someone and later on regret if that person leaves, then you better be firm with your decision to not sleep with that person
Dria says
Alas! This is the advice I needed when I was wasting my time in my twenties with a man who treated me the EXACT same way as described above. Now that I am actually in a loving, healthy, strong relationship, the same guy wants to date me again. I told him to “bug off”. Wish I had thought of “lose my number”. That line is classic. What is so wild to me is that this guy ACTUALLY believes that eleven years later, I am still interested in him. I blocked him on Facebook, so he would stop harassing me there. I changed my phone number, so he would stop calling me. At any rate, please get out now! It will not get any better. Trust me.
daphne says
Well, who does this guy ever end up committing to ?
Also- @Dria- does the guy who’s after you want a real relationship or the same every two weeks situation ?
starthrower68 says
Trying to be in a committed relationship with a non-committal guy is like trying to nail Jell-O to a tree. Or teaching a pig to sing. Or herding cats. Any of those analogies will work.
David T says
@15 LOL . I had a recent assignment at work that outsiders called herding cats, and I pulled it off (though I do sport some very smart looking claw marks.) So I respectfully disagree with the applicability of your last analogy.
J9 says
Or projects we have we call ‘herding cats – that are rabid and want to kill you’. Congrats on a project well done!
Susan61 says
@Mia. Absolutely right. I wish I had learned this lesson when I was much younger but I did lack the self esteem to say “no” then the guy I wanted was treating me badly or behaving in the way Evan describes. I do believe I finally have had enough and after almost 4 years of celibacy due to the last major “oxytocin” binge I had with the man who threw me away, I know for a fact if I had said “no” he would have been the one begging me for more. I still work with this man today (ugh, don’t ask) and I still struggle with the “what ifs”…if only I had been more of a femme fatale, or at least a female who stood up for herself, and said “no”. Certainly now I am unattainable but it’s too late, I am no longer that shiny new penny. Someday I will disappear, poof – and I guarantee he will try to find me. Lately I feel the acute pain of loneliness and occasionally succumb to feelings of hopelessness but I just can’t imagine, at 51, that I am DONE.
One does get to a point in life where the extreme highs and lows are just not that appealing and the idea of comfort and security and a sense of well being, safety, belongingness are enticing. I do think I have finally arrived and I feel ready for the man I will partner with, who will provide that soft place to land…
Jeanne says
David T., HaHa. How did you herd cats? What were they trying to prove at your workplace?
The best analogy I like is “nailing jello to a tree”. If you feel like you have to force anything, don’t do it. It is not worth it. For people who belong together, getting together should be effortless.
Evan, how do you find someone who does want a committed relationship?
Tan says
Thanks for that blog! Great advice Evan. I visit your blog everyday to read.
When a guy is truly into you he will let you know.
For all the other time wasting guys they will tell you any excuse to hold off being in a relationship with you.
Also advice to woman: don’t sleep with a guy until he is your bf!! That way you get a commitment before you get that oxytocin effect.
A friend says
Aww Tee. You are likely going to have to sleep with many guys before you find one willing to commit…
Lisa J says
You shouldn’t sleep with any until you find one that will commit, then sleep with him and him only.
Mia says
Susan — you are not “done,” but I think loneliness causes us to put up with noncommittal guys longer instead of kicking them to the curb. However, this summer marks my 10 year anniversary of dating (since age 18) and it’s been a turning point, as I now have a lengthy range of behaviors and experiences and outcomes from which to draw conclusions. And it’s become very clear that I definitely have all the basic boundaries, but lack the more advanced boundaries to get the guys and the relationships I want. Men marry good girls with strong boundaries, but not good girls without them. I’ve simply been too accepting – if a guy goes a week without calling, I don’t call him, go on dates with other ppl, and act very pleasant when he does call – well, where has my cool girl act gotten me? Nowhere! If I had said something in a calm and rational way, maybe the guy would’ve respected me more! Or if I just said, “See ya” or didn’t return the call. In sales, too, it’s the people who are willing to walk away that demonstrate higher value…
Chau says
@Starthrower68
I LOOOVE your analogy of nailing Jello to a tree. The image is just too funny. One of my favorite ones ever.
SP says
Yes its all okay and good that the woman goes on to find her true love and dumps her sporadic booty call…But no man will want as a wife any woman who is not a virgin..men grudgingly accept non-virgin women as wives because of emasculating feminism in the West..but men are standing up again….
and eww ewww eww to consider as your onw girlfriend a woman who has been somebody’s bootycall?
That’s like rummaging through the garbage..bringing it home and feasting on it as if it was a gourmet dinner–
Hildegerd says
But then the men should be virgins too. 😉
Chaka says
I’m shocked this b.s. doesn’t have a hundred outraged people responding! WTF are you talking about?? “But no man will want as a wife any woman who is not a virgin..men grudgingly accept non-virgin women as wives because of emasculating feminism in the West..but men are standing up again….”
David T says
@Jeanne18
I think they were trying to prove if a group of people who hated each other could actually accomplish something.
As for your other question, I suspect the answer is going to be to keep on looking.
@Susan61 There is nothing wrong with being done if you aree at peace (if you ‘can’t believe’ you are done, I think you are not at peace, but you can work toward that). There are lots of advantages to being single, and you lose some things too. It all depends on what you want. The nice thing is that it is your choice.
Clare says
I’ve had several friends get into these non-committal relationships. I don’t tend to get into them, or at least, stay in them, myself because I can’t stand the agony. After a month, 6 weeks max, my tolerance cuts out. I may want to, but I simply can’t find the energy if someone is still giving me the runaround after that.
I don’t understand the women Evan mentions in this post who let this go on for months. If someone doesn’t love you back, how much value can they possibly be bringing to your life?
Evan is right, play it cool, but not too cool. Relationships are in some ways, about return on investment. Learn to discern where the best returns are to be had on your outlay of energy, time, emotions etc. It doesn’t matter how desirable a prospect is if there are no returns. You wouldn’t make such an investment with your money, so why do that with your other resources?
Paragon says
@ Jane
“And just because you wait, the guy won’t necessarily stick around at that point anyway. There are no guarantees of anything.”
I think there is an argument that oxytocin’s effects become less pronounced, the more familiar a relationship becomes(please see below).
But, any guy who invests time in a relationship IS (inductively)saying something about an observable tendency – which, over time, can at least provide *some* information towards predicting future behavior.
It is far from certain, but at least contributes to some measure of confidence.
And I would further argue, that if such a tendency has a strategic evolutionary basis, it should contribute to the success of long-term mating, and thus, bear some correlation.
“Also, I’ve read that men are not immune to the effects of oxcytocin either.”
This is true.
What isn’t clear is how dependent it’s effects are on sex, with respect to humans.
Certain animal studies have suggested that oxytocin is, to some extant, sexually dimorphic – mediating pair-bonding only in females(with Vasopressin exerting a similar effect on males).
One important consideration, is that oxytocin is a stress antagonist – suggesting an evolutionary nexus where these effects help to reduce anxiety and stress(to help facilitate mating) during mate interactions which are characteristically high-risk, and uncertain(such as during an interval of short-term mating with a novel mate).
Of course, stress effects women and men differently – so it is trivial to see how mating interactions with a novel mate would pose greater anxiety(via greater risk) for females then males(perhaps explaining why females appear particularly vulnerable to it’s effects).
Another factor may be where female oxytocin ‘victims’ mate with promiscuous males, who’s defacto harems help inure the male to ‘bonding’ with any *particular* female(thus explaining his relative detachment).
Sonia says
The thing I’m afraid most is to sleep with a guy and then he disappears on you. I need a solid thing to know the guy is serious. there is also the possibility that the guy can just be horny and wanting to sleep with you but not aiming to bail on you later..it’s really hard to figure it out.
susan says
Yikes I thought Evan must have read my diary and then written about it:). Although I didn’t sleep with jello-man this time. And 3 months later he is still on a ”isn’t it great we are friends” kind of thing. AAARGH!!!!
I especially like the line that ”getting together should be effortless”. Becuase I think that acknowledges that being together might not be so easy, as you sift through all the stuff you both bring to the relationship, but that the bit about deciding to be together is the easy bit, the given, the starting block (and I call it assuming success).
Tom says
I think some of the terminology used here to describe some of these men (jello-men) is unhelpful i.e. calling them jerks, time wasters, players etc. I’m one and we don’t do it to be cruel, to play games or to hurt you. We just have a comfortable life as it is and don’t really want to change it. We don’t particularly want emotional support, daily contact, presents, love, trips away or any of the other paraphernalia of a relationship: I just want fun and sex with someone (or two) I like.
Why must there be an assumed traditional linear path to relationships; dating — exclusivity — engagement — marriage? Why can’t we just hang out and not put a label on it? Perhaps understanding is what’s required: he just has a different long-term goal to you and that’s ok; leave him but don’t get angry or bitter.
@ daphne
“well, who does this guy ever end up committing to?”
This is the internal dialogue that we have with ourselves all the time. I guess it’s when they meet someone very particular or they just grow up / get tired. But as someone said, change has to come from within and a woman can’t change him.
@ SP
I really dislike the antediluvian attitude of considering a woman who has been in this situation as another man’s garbage. Actually very few men in the West expect their wives to be virgins — how can we want women to have sex with us, and then judge them for doing it? Frankly a woman’s previous history is none of our business.
@ Susan
“and 3 months later he is still on a ‘isn’t it great we are friends’ kind of thing”
I do this for two reasons:
1 — I’m actually a nice guy and like these women so I try to stay friendly with them after they’ve given me the boot.
2 — There’s probably a 30% chance that if I meet them again they’ll still sleep with me even though know what I’m like!
Alex says
I agree with everything you said in this article (well, nearly everything).
If a guy calls you all the time when you first meet then that could be a sign that he’s enthusiastic about your relationship, but there’s a fine line between enthusiastic and controlling.
If a guy calls and texts constantly this might seem like a good thing to start with, but it could actually be a tell-tale sign that the guy is going to be very controlling in the future. It varies from person to person, but if he’s constantly asking where you are, who you’re with and what you’re doing (even if it seems harmless) then it’s probably best to have a chat with him rather than just assume this means he’s dedicated to you.
Great article!
Rachael says
Tom: “perhaps understanding is what’s required…leave him but don’t get angry or bitter.”
Hit it on the head with that one. However sometimes it’s hard to suppress feelings of anger, or bitterness. Especially if a woman really likes someone and has her hopes way up high. Even understanding where a man is coming from isn’t a cure for the negative feelings that may pop up.
I think the trick is not to spew those feelings all over the guy. That’s where understanding comes into play. Sure, the feelings come up but if you understand the other person it becomes much easier to keep them to yourself and work through them on your own.
It’s a two way street. If you find yourself just “having a good time” with a girl and she suddenly becomes needy and maybe slightly emotionally volatile it’s your turn to understand where she’s coming from and gently end the “relationship”. Saying something like “you’re a great girl but I don’t want a committed relationship i’m sorry but we have to go our separate ways.”. Even if she pulls the “I’m ok with no commitment” thing. I’m sure you’ve seen it all before. Actions speak louder than words. That’s when you say “no, I can see clearly that you’re not ok with it and i’m not going to put either of us in that position.”.
Is such a thing possible for a guy with your stance on relationships, or will you always sleep with the physically (if not emotionally) willing? I’m really curious…
Justyna says
aww Rachael I do get what you are saying. How “nice” it would be if ‘those unavailable men” would just leave us alone instead continuing to ..sleep with us. Unfortunately or..fortunately the onus is on us to walk away. Men will continue pursue us (for sex) as long as they know we will participate in it. It is on us to say: i want love and commitment and you are not giving it to me so I have to leave. It is appreciated though when they make it “easier” and not torture us with:” but i miss you and I want to see you (but still not offering commitment)” I went through that last year. I “left” him..three times..only to keep giving in because of oxytocin. He finally “let” me go, by saying: I understand ..(!). I never lost my cool though. I was calm cool and collected every time. But I suffered when the oxytocin wore off.
Liz says
Tom you scare me a little! May I ask you a question? This comfortable life you have, devoid of emotional support, daily contact, love, travel or other symbols of consistent relationships, and complete with fun sex provide you the substance you need at this point in your life? I mean during the quiet times, while your alone–those times? No judgement, just inquiry.
Why I ask: While I agree that traditional linear paths, dating, exclusive, engagement doesn’t meet everyone’s long term goal, particularly anyone from about 18-30, I have yet to meet a woman, that, over time, is just looking for “fun and sex.” Inherently, for me to enjoy myself and give, I would want to feel safe and secure with the man I am with, and thus the necessity of “labeling it” and providing a sense of consistency and exclusivity. I emote, and I am vulnerable, so if a man doesn’t provide that safety and security, I let him know that I would love to wake up with him in the morning, but I don’t want to hurt, if that is the only morning we do so. I am also very attentive to any signs of red flags (this you learn with time). I am not demanding or anything, I just know my body and heart craves that kind of devotion.
I do agree that eventually these men tire and at the same time meet someone really special, thus finally commit. Or these men want a family and rationalize calming down their behavior in order to start a family. But I think what gets women angry is the stringing it on, when you have no intention of skipping down the linear path. The courting, which is often on really high levels, and when you continue to partake, but never move forward. Like it is okay to have “fun and sex” with a good girl because they should know what I am like.
Kathleen says
Tom
Its your choice that you only fun and sex and not much more and I certainly don’t judge that …..Im curious if you make that crystal clear to a woman upfront so that the expectations of what you can and can’t give are very clear before she gets attached to you…..or do you keep this “don’t ask don’t tell” so that you can get the sex you want?
Its enlightening that you remain friends on the 30 % chance you can still hook up with your women. That inspires me to continue to cut the cord quickly and not continue to be “friends”
I agree with your comments to SP who’s comments were hard to believe!
Justyna says
Kathleen..they do not make it crystal clear but..there are red flags and we chose not to see them. So again, it is really on us to walk away before we sleep with them if they are not asking us to be exclusive. They do what we allow them to. Due to biology and other things they do not attach to us the way we do to them and they can have sex with us and not want to be exclusive…
Wendy says
My best relationships have always been easy ones, the ones where I wasn’t sitting by the phone or over-analyzing every little move he made. I know there are still some folks who play “The Game”: Meet girl, wait three days, call girl, wait three days, date girl, wait three days, etc. Puh-leeze! As soon as I realize a guy I’m trying to get to know is playing The Game (usually within nine – 12 days), I don’t make excuses for him…buh-bye! If he’s interested in me he will make it clear. And I, likewise, don’t play the game back. If he wants to go out Friday night and I’m free, we go. I’m not going to pretend to have other plans to keep him guessing or not be too available. If I like a guy I let him know, and I expect him to afford me the same courtesy. The man I’m dating now (for almost a year, thank you very much) made it perfectly clear within one week and three dates that he was smitten. I made it clear from the beginning that I was looking for an exclusive relationship, and luckily so was he (and he didn’t lie about that to get me into bed…ooh, honesty, what a concept!).
I think the problem so many of us have is that we meet people who are not looking for the same thing, we don’t express what it is we’re looking for (that would violate the rules of The Game), and then when we’ve fallen under the spell of oxytocin we desperately try to make the other person want the same thing. It doesn’t work that way at all. Stop playing The Game; just tell people what you want and be honest about it. Why is that so hard?
maria says
I totally agree with this attitude that to be hones to what you want is better than playing games with no assurance at all… all of us is dreaming of a good fairy tales but, the truth is. our own destiny has its own rules… no other forms of rules, terms and guidelines to follow, except your heart and use your mind in making decisions , so that at the end, you will not blame this other person or this so called effect of oxytocin… we are what we are, we have to be responsible enough to stand on what we want and not on what others will dictate us…
AllenB says
@Tom 27
Why did you find those insulting? Those were only similies regarding the futility of hoping someone to change into what they aren’t. They describe who I was in my past and I am not at all insulted or embarrassed by that past.
There was a long period of time after my first relationship with my fiance when we were not seeing each other. We were both dating around, and I could not get excited or attached to any woman at all. After a while I became sure that I would never be in love for a very long time if ever, but I still wanted female companionship so I went out on dates. Those similes were quite accurate to any woman who wanted to take things further with me besides being a talking and activity companion.
I _knew_ what was going on in me, so I told them quite early in our dating that things would not progress,, in case they were becoming attached. I do not shy away from having “the relationship conversation” and It is only fair that they understand what and who they are getting into.
Some women were disappointed. Some were OK with that kind of relationship. Many continued their search for committed LTRs (sometimes with my help) and _all_ of them appreciated my friendship and honesty. Some found their man.
When they would end up in relationships, I was sad to lose my companion and makeout partner, but I also knew that trying to stay in a non-committed relationship with a commitment oriented woman is like hunting ducks with spitballs or nailing Jello to the ceiling. Sorry, does that insult any of the commitment oriented women here? 😉
As Wendy says, be up front at where you are coming from. If they still end up upset and hurt, they can complain that they aren’t meeting commitment minded men, but they can’t be honest with themselves and blame the man.
Daria (Ria) says
He says: “you’re a great girl but I don’t want a committed relationship i’m sorry but we have to go our separate ways.” She thinks “But if l change a bit more, maybe then you ´ll want,” and says: “I’m ok with no commitment” Guys who give us oxydocin, are those charming smooth talk personalities, who can be very clever in letting girl know that there ´s potential for more, or she just translates his passion as possible for more. Try saying a girl: “hey, l just want to have sex and no relationship afterwards,” and the beginning and see where it gets you.”
I recently had a very interesting experience. Met this tall handsome and dark guy, exactly like l have dreamed l could have, and the chemistry was soo over the moon. But l decided, that lm so not gonna sleep with him until l see a bit more of him and then decide. Boy was he trying to get me to sex part fast by being very charming and giving some cheesy bs and every time l managed to play around a bit. To be honest l felt like being overloaded by chemistry, yet pressured at the same time.
Did what Evan has taught us – LISTENED what he actually said and paid attention to all the NEGATIVE, (managed to get to know that he is focused in his career and not looking for LTR, and too many other issues). Funnily enough, when l said, that look, lm not ready to sleep with you, l felt all the pressure suddenly went off, and we got actually talking in more serious manner about things. Apart from the chemistry thing, l could say that was the very first time l actually enjoyed his company and which now helps me to decide what l will do with him in the future. My road has been safe by doing this, and l have been enjoying myself.
Paragon says
@ Tom
“I really dislike the antediluvian attitude of considering a woman who has been in this situation as another man’s garbage.”
Dislike it all you want.
But, all else being equal, no sensible marriage-minded man would prefer a promiscuous woman for quite obvious reasons.
“Actually very few men in the West expect their wives to be virgins”
That doesn’t mean they wouldn’t *prefer* virgins.
“how can we want women to have sex with us, and then judge them for doing it?”
Non-sequitur – a male desire for sex can exist independently of acknowledged risk-factors.
“Frankly a woman’s previous history is none of our business.”
If I am going to devote my life to her security, safety, and happiness, then I sure as hell intend to make it my business.
@ Wendy
“Stop playing The Game; just tell people what you want and be honest about it. Why is that so hard?”
And what motivation would a self-interested man ‘who’s only looking for sex’, have in handicapping this goal?
@ Racheal
“It’s a two way street. If you find yourself just “having a good time” with a girl and she suddenly becomes needy and maybe slightly emotionally volatile it’s your turn to understand where she’s coming from and gently end the “relationship”.”
Sorry, but I think people should take personal responsibility for their own choices – no one forces women to indulge non-committal males, whose indications are not so subtle as many women would want to believe(they simply ‘choose’ to ignore them, or explain them away).
@ AllenB
“As Wendy says, be up front at where you are coming from. If they still end up upset and hurt, they can complain that they aren’t meeting commitment minded men, but they can’t be honest with themselves and blame the man.”
I always get a kick out of women who make generalizations, or universal statements about men being promiscuous or non-committal, while failing to recognize that their justifications are observing a very biased sample that says more about their ‘choices’ in men, than about the male sex per se.
CC says
I really don’t think any decent man would expect or put a lot of importance on a woman being a virgin. I mean crappy guys do, the ones that think women are like toys to be owned and noone else can play with them. But a decent guy? Nah. A virgin often doesn’t understand her own body and what she enjoys, and how can she please someone else if she can’t please herself. I know when I lost my virginity I didn’t enjoy sex very much and I just thought there was something wrong with my body. And it wasn’t until I had more experience that I learnt what I enjoyed, and realised that the first guy I slept with was a bad match. Imagine I’d stayed with him and never had a satisfying sex life? That would have sucked. If a man expects a virgin he definitely is selfish and doesn’t care about her pleasure.
Kathleen says
Allen B I commend you for being upfront and clear with women communicating you were not interested in any type of committed relationship I think that shows that you care about them as people and don’t want to hurt them when they are very vulnerable to it.
I read that the oxytocin high in women from orgasmic sex lasts several days (vs hour in men) and it is 10 times higher in women than men. If a woman is dumped afterwards then her cortisol level ( stress hormone) skyrockets and that is what makes her susceptible to depression and despair afterwards as well as the damaging effects of cortisol on her body. Maybe the mood swings this causes is why guys complain about drama.
This explanation more than anything else helped me understand why women aren’t designed for sexual liaisons that last a time or two.
Mia says
Paragon – What makes you think a man can ever find out a woman’s sex history? It wouldn’t be unusual for a woman who was not even sleeping around for fun every weekend to rack up some 15-25 sex partners by age 30, if she’s dated a lot. And a reasonable 2 a year average since a woman is 17, until she is married at 32, is … 30. Women also never tell the true number when asked if it’s over 10 — one of my best friends has slept with possibly 50 guys at just age 28, and she says 3 when asked. She can pull it off because she looks young, sweet and innocent. I generally wish the worst for guys like Tom – who don’t see women as human beings with feelings and hearts, only objets to be used for sport – but at least he isn’t a hypocrite about sex, which I respect a great deal.
Ruby says
In my experience, the non-committal types are not straight-forward, precisely because they won’t want to scare women off. That’s why, even if they tell you they weren’t looking for anything serious, they also tell you how great you are, and that they are open to seeing where things go. The woman hopes that because the guy likes her so much, and is “open” to a relationship, she’ll change his mind. That’s why EMK’s axiom, “Believe the negatives, ignore the positives,” is important to remember when a woman encounters mixed messages.
But just because a woman doesn’t realize that she’s being lead on, doesn’t mean that doing so is okay. Unfortunately, you can’t necessarily count on a man not doing that, so belng able to interpret the signals is crucial.
Not being a virgin, however, doesn’t make a woman “promiscuous,” though. If a man wants a virgin, they are out there, so why would you concern yourself with those who aren’t? Just avoid all the non-virgins out there. They’re not interested in you, either.
sarahrahrah! says
Hello. My name is sarahrahrah! and I’m an oxytocin addict.
Oy! Talk about hitting the nail on the head! Again, thank you for the pep talk. I really needed it this week after the non-committal former boyfriend came around. Nothing had changed for him — he was just lonely. I was strong and let him know that we were not seeing each other anymore if he still didn’t know if he wanted to be exclusive.
I know I made the right decision… and I feel like I owe you at least 10 beers at this point. If you and your wife make it up to Nor Cal, they’re on me!
runnergirl says
Just thought I’d throw this in the mix. I’m new to the online dating thing and having a blast. Last night, I met with a “nice guy”, not my type. Midway through the evening, he confessed that he lied about his age on his profile. He wasn’t 49 he is 53. I clearly state I’m 53 on my profile cos I am. His deception caught my attention. 49 vs. 53? He then stated, “I’m a liar”. That’s a good thing to know, up front, and on the table.
When I inquired further, he stated that he thought by lying about his age, he could get younger women. In the bubble above my head, oh, thought I, then why is he hanging with old folks like me. I stayed present long enough to hear him explain that he did get a date with a younger woman who complained about how the guys just wanted to have sex. He said, “that’s what I wanted to”. I suddenly got really tired and had to go. No generalizations or universal statements. Just me giving a “nice guy” a chance. No hard feelings. No justifications. He wants to have sex with younger women. He isn’t my choice in a man. But I wish him well in his endeavors to have sex with younger women. Beware younger women, he also has hair transplants, lies about his age as though 49 is better than 53, lost everything in the CA recession, and needs to have sex, has 3 ex’s and 4 children. All that not withstanding, it’s all about sex for this guy. And he looks 60 in real life. I wasn’t inclined to hop in the sack and I’m old.
Mj says
Omg, that is CLASSIC for online dates.
I read one guy was high school graduate, divorced with 4 kids, seeking 10-20 years younger and…preferred long hair (but could overlook that) dam what a catch!!
Jesslyn says
This is one question that a lot of women have in mind- whether their guy is serious about the relationship. Why? Because some men (not all) are afraid to commit themselves into a long-term relationship. Great to hear of some sort of litmus test women can use in their relationship!
Paragon says
@ Mia
“Paragon — What makes you think a man can ever find out a woman’s sex history?”
I said that I intend to make it my business – to see if she fails any consistency checks, or advertises something about a promiscuous history(anything that speaks to a *pattern* of promiscuous behavior, or of being a chemistry ‘junkie’, regardless of how she attempts to rationalize, or deflect personal responsibility).
So, she doesn’t need to divulge an explicit number, for me to make some reasonable assessments of risk.
And, in my experience many women are careless with letting these indications slip, because they do not recognize them as a potential liability.
“Women also never tell the true number when asked if it’s over 10 – one of my best friends has slept with possibly 50 guys at just age 28, and she says 3 when asked. She can pull it off because she looks young, sweet and innocent.”
How do you know she’s pulling it off?
50 guys at age 28, sounds rather like guys are seeing her for *exactly* what she is(ie. I suspect the only person she’s fooling, is herself).
“I generally wish the worst for guys like Tom — who don’t see women as human beings with feelings and hearts, only objets to be used for sport”
He isn’t ‘using’ anyone, who isn’t using him for the *exact same thing*(ie. sex).
The only thing that may differ, are personal expectations – and that is something everyone should take personal responsibility for, instead of blaming others(ie. learn how to cultivate *justified* expectations, instead of just crossing your fingers more tightly when the next guy appears on deck).
I read alot of comments from women who say something like, ‘it took me *years* to learn which guys to avoid’.
But I am skeptical.
If it is taking years(let alone *decades*) to learn these lessons, it occurs that these women are either veeeery *slow* learners(which I think is unlikely), or they are merely reconciling the fact that, after time, they have lost the option to indulge old patterns of behavior.
It really shouldn’t take decades, or even years to learn these kinds of lessons – someone very special to me, learned this after *one* bad experience.
That’s all it took, because she made the *choice* to be critical of future prospects, instead of just indulging risky behaviors(for a ‘chemistry’ fix), crossing her fingers, and then hoping for the best(and then crying about the more or less predictable outcome).
“but at least he isn’t a hypocrite about sex, which I respect a great deal.”
Who’s being hypocritical?
I wouldn’t object to being judged by the same standard I apply to women – but, I’m not going to hold my breath.
Why?
Because, an admitted double-standard exists only through the complicity of women – they cannot bring themselves to be equally critical of promiscuous males, because the attractive men they observe, tend to be promiscuous(and they are not prepared to alienate such men).
With women, on the other hand, an opposite pattern seems to emerge:
“in both male and female demand, sex and looks are complements; all else equal, the better someone looks, the more you want sex with them. In male sex supply, sex and looks seem unrelated; how much sex a man offers has little to do with his looks.
In female sex supply, however, it seems that sex and looks are substitutes; the better she looks the less sex she offers.”
http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/08/sex-looks-are-supply-substitutes.html
@ Ruby
“Not being a virgin, however, doesn’t make a woman “promiscuous,” though.”
No, it doesn’t.
But, I would argue that an established pattern of behavior speaking to short-term sexual relationships with different men, does.
Look, I’m not damning promiscuous women – I’m just saying that, all things being equal, there are men who will favor another option.
@ runnergirl
“When I inquired further, he stated that he thought by lying about his age, he could get younger women. In the bubble above my head, oh, thought I, then why is he hanging with old folks like me.”
Because he is re-evaluating his options.
“I stayed present long enough to hear him explain that he did get a date with a younger woman who complained about how the guys just wanted to have sex. He said, “that’s what I wanted to”. I suddenly got really tired and had to go. No generalizations or universal statements. Just me giving a “nice guy” a chance. No hard feelings. No justifications. He wants to have sex with younger women. ”
An older guy wanting to have sex with younger women doesn’t sound very controversial to me – do you think this is somehow an exceptional dynamic?
And just because he admits to wanting sex, doesn’t mean that he isn’t looking for something long-term, does it?
European Singles says
Women do not like it when men call them immediately after a date.
Mia says
Paragon – First of all, the friend I referenced has terrible behavior with men and I don’t endorse her number, just trying to explain that men won’t usually be able to figure out the sex history. I feel equally skeptical when I meet a man who indicates, however unwittingly, that he chases chemistry, that he’s a serial dater, that he’s had too many experiences with bitchy, manipulative girls. Just as I feel skeptical when I see any woman over 25 still chasing chemistry, having sex on the second date, etc. I’m like, aren’t you too old for this, are you stupid? But I think you’re being too harsh in some respects. I do not chase chemistry and looks and have still been seriously hurt by men who were hardly better than average looking, who were average earning, who were not clearly alphas, a bit nerdy, and gave no indication of being players. It doesn’t matter how reasonable a person’s requirements, if there are a ton of people out there who are NOT reasonable, who are excessively picky with 3 page long checklists and instant chemistry requirements, then the reasonable person still suffer the consequences.
Daphne says
When you meet the non committal guy, will he react differently to you based on whether you have sex w him soon versus holding out ?
Ruby says
When i was younger, there wasn’t much dating advice out there, and I admit to being naive and overly trusting. However, my friends and I – even in our 40s and 50s – have encountered many men who have not really been looking for anything serious. Many of these men were decent guys who were messed up over previous relationships and not ready. I wouldn’t even describe most of them as players or alpha males. But most of them, sorry to say, were not completely honest. All of them suggested that they were open to something more serious. Maybe some of them wanted to be, but most probably got caught up in the moment, and didn’t care. It’s up to women to qualify a man as relationship material because men are not always above-board about this. In my experience, the ones who are serious-minded will let you know early on.
Tom says
@ AllenB
“Why did you find those insulting?”
I wasn’t insulted (I’m impervious to insult), rather I think negative comments about non-committal men are unhelpful for women dating in general. Negativity is a very unattractive quality and if women understood and accepted people who don’t want conventional relationships they mightn’t be as resentful and hurt whilst dating. I can appreciate being led on a merry dance to nowhere can be frustrating though. Evan’s advice of “until he’s your boyfriend he’s not real” is pertinent here.
@ Rachael
“if you’re just having a good time and she suddenly becomes needy and emotionally volatile it’s your turn to understand where she’s coming from and gently end the relationship…I’m sure you’ve seen it all…is such a thing possible for a guy with your stance?
Yes I’ve seen it all before — many times. I’ve seen every trick in the book; from crazy sex to withdrawal of sex, giving me the cold shoulder, saying she wants casual when she’s clearly lying, emotional volatility etc. In those situations I say that it’s clear she wants more and to continue would make me feel like I’m using her so I gently end it.
@Liz
“Does your comfortable life devoid of emotional support…provide you the substance you need…during the quiet times…when you’re alone”
First of all thank you for your eloquent response as to why you like to label your relationships. Yes I don’t particularly want nor need the trappings of relationship, even during the quiet times. However, I’m not some sort of emotionless automaton; I just get my support from friends and family and my own steadfast self-belief.
@ Kathleen 31
“I’m curious if you make that crystal clear to a woman upfront”
Before I came to this blog I used to date women and imply through my behaviour that I wasn’t looking for anything serious (i.e. only meeting once every week or two, avoiding certain discussions etc). Those women told me afterwards that they knew what I was like from the start, and yet they continued to date me for about two months, whereupon they’d be angry with me for not wanting more! As a result of reaction to a previous blog post now I tell them upfront and strangely a lot of women say “that’s cool, so do I” and then two months later, bingo they start pushing for more. Maybe it’s as Daria (Ria) says:
“He says: ‘you’re a great girl but I don’t want a committed relationship’… she thinks ‘but if I change a bit more’ and says ‘I’m ok with no commitment’
@ Mia“guys like Tom — who don’t see women as human beings with feelings and hearts, only objects to be used for sport”I disagree with you there as I actually adore women, of all shapes and sizes not just for their bodies but for the way they think and feel so differently to men; I particularly like what Liz said about needing to emote and be vulnerable.
@ Daphne
“When you meet the non committal guy, will he react differently to you based on whether you have sex w him soon versus holding out?”
I only pursue women when sex happens practically straightaway because I don’t want to upset women who genuinely want to find love (or waste my own time) so holding out even a small bit will keep me away.
Kathleen says
Tom
47
Thank you for answering my question because I was genuinely curious. Im one of those women that entered into this sort of relationship with an uncommitted guy. He told me upfront which I always appreciated It put responsibility on me and it minimized my anger at him (but not me) when it ended
Id come out of a very long marriage, didn’t want to be close to anyone and I missed the sex. I thought i could handle it. I didn’t understand how differently i would react and how powerful my biology and brain chemistry was. I felt like I was on crack.
Probably this type of relationship can work with a woman with an attachment disorder, or a woman who’s androgens are higher, but they will probably all succumb. Hopefully you at least befriend these women as they attach.
Lesson learnt for me It was damaging and traumatic and I will never do that again.
Paragon says
@ Mia
“I do not chase chemistry and looks and have still been seriously hurt by men who were hardly better than average looking, who were average earning, who were not clearly alphas, a bit nerdy, and gave no indication of being players. It doesn’t matter how reasonable a person’s requirements, if there are a ton of people out there who are NOT reasonable, who are excessively picky with 3 page long checklists and instant chemistry requirements, then the reasonable person still suffer the consequences.”
It occurs that we are observing two different worlds – I suspect you live in a large metropolitan area with a gender ratio favoring females.
While I, live in an isolated, moderate sized city(110, 000), where the gender ratio favors males.
Another problem is that more and more men appear to be drinking the PUA kool aid, thinking it will improve their success with women, while failing to recognize that ‘Game’ principles are a largely spurious explanation for the success of ‘naturals'(and thus most of the ‘techniques’ they propose are useless).
The problem with ‘game’, is that it cannot be defined as an independent variable, and thus must always be speaking to ‘some unspoken determinant'(conveniently rendering it unfalsifiable).
Thus, appealing to game in unspecified terms is not useful, and often indicative of cargo-cult reasoning.
Still, ‘PUA’ principles/techniques are gaining popular currency, because more and more frustrated men are observing the (spurious) correlation between female sexual choice, and sexually confident/aggressive men who enjoy high success.
Rachael says
@Tom: Thank you for answering my question and also proving that just because a man does not want to commit does not make him a bad person with bad intentions.
I have had to have the “I want more than sex…wish you well.” conversation a couple of times. Both men were visibly shocked and taken aback. Neither man had been very up front about non-monogamy. I just knew it in my gut. One man thanked me very much for my honesty and asked me to continue with a friendship. He was a nice guy and I know he genuinely enjoyed my company. The other thanked me for my time and wished me success in my search. He was a nice guy and genuinely enjoyed my…”company”.
I admit I don’t have extensive experience with non-committal men. But the two I experienced were not bad guys at all. I don’t think it’s fair to make them put as if they’re assholes. Just…Not what I was interested in.
I felt very sad ending those “affairs” because they started for a reason… I liked those men. To make them out to me scum would say something pretty awful about my own taste.
runnergirl says
Thank you Paragon for your response. You gave me pause. I agree, an older guy wanting to have sex with a younger woman isn’t earth shattering. However, my focus was that he admitted to being a liar. That’s a red flag in my book. What else is he lying about? A wife, a gf, a LTR? I think if you listen, folks tell you who they are and what they want straight out of the gate. Can you trust a liar? Can you build a healthy relationship with a liar? So, I think you may be right. If I want to hook up with a liar who is re-evaluating his “options” cos he can’t really have sex with a younger woman and will settle on sex with a old woman, then that’s my guy! I’m new on the dating scene so maybe I’m wrong. Back in the day, it went something like guy meets girl, guy tries to impress girl, girl gives in and has sex with guy (as Marc describes in this post) and then…well…? Does it go like this now: Guy meets girl, admits he’s a liar and spends the evening talking about how he’d like to have sex with a younger woman. Girl figures if she has sex, he’ll realize how wonderful she is? Listening to a perfect stranger describe how he’d like to have sex with a younger woman simply did not get me ready to drop my knickers. Maybe it would send other women into an oxytocin high? I’ve lived on oxytocin and starved. No more oxytocin, crumbs or liars, despite the high. It was really nice to be present, listening, and not driven by my libido which he didn’t ignite by any stretch of my imagination. I can’t do long term with a liar. Funny how you missed the lying part.
runnergirl says
@Tom: “I only pursue women when sex happens practically straightaway because I don’t want to upset women who genuinely want to find love (or waste my own time) so holding out even a small bit will keep me away.” This comment was really helpful to me. I’ll be waiting. Waiting for me to feel comfortable and respected. It’s good to know that waiting for a healthy relationship vs. an oxytocin high will keep you all away. Is there a spray?
Kathleen says
Runnergirl 51
I understand you are new to online dating. You will find that most guys onlineour age take a number of years off their age and I don’t understand how the difference between 49 to 53 is so horrifying. Im 53. and at this stage of life what seems more important than a guys chronological age is how fit and energetic he is.
You may have to ease up on very rigid black and white thinking. There is a big difference between a guy stating a few years difference and the guys who Ive met from online who are actually married and out to reel in a hook up on the side.
Im 53 Guys contact me all the time who are my age but their criteria states they are looking for younger. I always tell them Im not a match based on their criteria and they change their criteria pretty quickly
Good luck !
Paragon says
@ Ruby
“In my experience, the ones who are serious-minded will let you know early on. ”
I disagree – the serious one’s can only let you know over time(ie. THAT’S how you know they are serious – when they’re still there).
@ Tom
“I only pursue women when sex happens practically straightaway because I don’t want to upset women who genuinely want to find love (or waste my own time) so holding out even a small bit will keep me away.”
Bingo(I hope the women are paying due attention).
@ runnergirl
“However, my focus was that he admitted to being a liar. That’s a red flag in my book. What else is he lying about? A wife, a gf, a LTR? I think if you listen, folks tell you who they are and what they want straight out of the gate. Can you trust a liar? Can you build a healthy relationship with a liar?”
It depends.
Have you YOU ever lied about anything?
Does that mean you are, necessarily, untrustworthy?
It isn’t so binary – people lie conditionally, and for different reasons.
But, it occurs that he DIDN’T lie to you at all – he posted false info on his PROFILE, and then confided in you the (apparent) truth.
Funny how you missed that.
” Listening to a perfect stranger describe how he’d like to have sex with a younger woman simply did not get me ready to drop my knickers.”
Let’s be honest – would it have mattered either way?
I suspect he was already getting a strong ‘not interested, not gonna happen’, vibe from you anyway, so at least he gave you a memorable anecdote(for whatever bizarre reason – perhaps a neg hit?).
“It was really nice to be present, listening, and not driven by my libido which he didn’t ignite by any stretch of my imagination.”
Are you certain this wan’t the REAL issue, more than anything else he said and did?
I mean, did he have even a realistic chance of getting you to reciprocate interest?
Katarina says
runnergirl’s date is a liar. No two ways about it. It wasn’t a white lie to conceal a surprise party. He lied about his age in order to snag younger women. He probably considered runnergirll’s awesome profile and thought he’d take a chance. Maybe an older woman might be desperate and he was having a dry spell. (please take no offense runnergirl).
Guys like Tom are easy to spot. I really believe in intuition. It has never failed me. Although I admit failing to follow it – causing a bruise on my forehead from banging it on the wall. My head has been bruise free for about 4 years now.
Paragon: women are not slow. Some of us were in long term relationships, like marriage that we tried to make work but came to the realization that it just wasn’t going to work. So years can turn into decades.
I was married to an awful person and finally gave up and left him. Then I was in an LTR with someone that was completely the opposite of my ex. Well he “forgot” to tell me he never got a divorce. Dropped him immediately. Add up those 2 and I have decades of waste (exception to waste: 2 extraordinary children).
I now know what to look for. Instincts/intuition have saved me since then.
It’s hard not to get caught up, but considering all that I have to give, it’s not worth giving up too soon.
I’m 45 and I may not know exactly what I want, but I do know what I don’t want.
Lily2 says
@ Paragon
How’s your love life going?
Ruby says
Paragon #54
““In my experience, the ones who are serious-minded will let you know early on. ”
I disagree — the serious one’s can only let you know over time(ie. THAT’S how you know they are serious — when they’re still there).”
What I’m saying is that men who have serious intentions do let you know early on, but it is true that the only way you can know for certain is over time.
Runner Girl #51
I suspect that the man you met told you the truth about his age and his desire for younger women because he had no designs on you. If he looks really bad for his age, probably no one is buying his fib anyway. For me, the worst thing isn’t that he knocked 4 years off his age (he did ‘fess up when he met you), as people routinely do online all the time, but that he told you that he did it in the hopes of snagging younger women for sex. That’s pretty disrespectful.
Paragon says
@ Katarina
“runnergirl’s date is a liar. No two ways about it.”
No one is disputing that he lied on his profile – but there is no indication that he lied to runnergirl, in his interactions with her(there is a difference).
“It wasn’t a white lie to conceal a surprise party. He lied about his age in order to snag younger women.”
Sounds like a relatively harmless lie to me – who does it hurt, and how?
” Paragon: women are not slow. Some of us were in long term relationships, like marriage that we tried to make work but came to the realization that it just wasn’t going to work. So years can turn into decades. ”
That’s why these lessons are best learned BEFORE marriage.
@ Lily2
” @ ParagonHow’s your love life going?”
Like a dream, why do you ask?
Lily2 says
@ Paragon
Because although you are very insightful and that is an attractive quality that I’m sure MANY women find attractive, you quickly come across as harshly critical and lacking in compassion….OUCH!
Michelle says
I really appreciate the effort of at least being up front with women on intentions @Tom. Even if a woman starts out saying she agrees, the chemistry going on in her body as she’s continuing to have sex with the same man is inevitable. It’s just the way it is, there’s notihing ‘wrong’ with her, and she is not being exaperating or unreasonable–this is the way we’re built. If men really want to take the next step, then only sleep with her a few times at the most.
David T says
@runnergirl52
It’s good to know that waiting for a healthy relationship vs. an oxytocin high will keep you all away. Is there a spray?
The thing is, RunnerGirl, Tom is being honest and honorable. He recognizes he does not want a committed LTR, and also does not want to break hearts so he seeks women who are willing to engage in physical intimacy without being too invested in him. There are some out there. He may be somewhat naive in judging how much people do get wrapped up simply because of physical intimacy, but different people are affected by that different amounts and it does become the responsibility of the individual to protect themselves.
You will run into men who, like Tom, seek sex w/o emotional investment, and also know that being up front about that will limit their options and don’t care if they break a few hearts (some rare few even want to break hearts.) Unlike Tom, these men will lie or act deceptively to get what they want. That is where your spray will come in handy, but for now you will have to rely on your lie-dar which seems to be in working order. Whether this guy would have lied about how he felt about you, there is no telling, but it does not matter. You can find men who are honest in their profiles and the important facts of their lives and that is at least a more promising start.
Paragon says
@ Lily2
My manner expressed through writing is a polar opposite to that observed in offline, interpersonal interactions.
I am highly sensitive, artistic, and romantic(not that any of this is relevant, beyond your innuendo).
Fusee says
From Tom #47: “I only pursue women when sex happens practically straightaway because I don’t want to upset women who genuinely want to find love (or waste my own time) so holding out even a small bit will keep me away.”
That’s always been very clear to me and I’m thankful Tom is explaining it clearly for everyone here to hopefully – once for all – get it!
I would add:
1. Postponing sex: 50% chances of sorting out players/users
2. Postponing kissing: 75% chances of sorting out players/users + those who are not even interested in getting to know a bit of you before sharing saliva
3. Adding conversations about relationship goals and desires for LTR/marriage: 99% of sorting out players/users + people not interested in getting to know you + people not compatible with your relationship goals
Straightforward way to avoid wasting energy, time, feelings, and unnecessarily incrasing your “number” and focus instead of a limited but more promising pool of applicants.
@ Mia #37: Do not fool yourself. Your attitude will tell your “number”. If you accept dates easily and have sex too early on (if you have sex with two new people each year, you do have sex too soon), it’s not rocket science to predict your “number” based on the number of years since turning 16-18! And yes, it’s okay to have had “experience”, but most serious people have not had dozens of them, and prefer people who did not as well! My “low-number” status that my attitude reflects makes me much more attractive. They like my “experience” but they also like that I did not do the equivalent of a football team. Oops I’m not even sure how many players are in a football team, but I’m confident it’s more than my “number” : )
From Mia #6: “And I’ve just never had the balls to do Evan’s goodbye speech — I may continue accepting dates with other men, but never cut the other guy off either. But the more insight I get from my male friends, and the more I read this blog, the more I’m coming to understand that the most powerful thing a woman can do is say no.”
Unless you (generic you) absolutely love hanging out with strangers and getting to know tidbits of people that you will never see again, why – oh why – is it a good thing to go on unnecessary dates? I so prefer spending my time with good old friends I already trust and love rather than with random strangers! I so disagree with the advice that women should date around until someone commits. Is it supposed to increase your value in the eyes of men? Is it supposed to make you feel good about yourself to have (the illusion of) options? I think that what it does is the opposite: you keep uncommittal men around in the hopes of easy sex and you do not encourage more serious men to truly value you and step up to take more responsabilities. Oh and it burns you out to run on the dating hamster wheel like crazy. Rejection does hurt. Why encouraging unnecessary rejection?
That’s why I did the very opposite. I treated dating as something special. I stopped accepting dates until someone more promising and more determined to have me showed up. Early on I made clear to him that the process was special to me, that I had not accepted a date in a long time, had not had a boyfriend in years, and that I valued him enough to really get to know him without any expectation. I made sure he understood how much respect I had for him and for myself. If he had been a user/player or uninterested in me, he would have run for the hills, and I wanted to make it easy for him to do that. He did not. Who wants to spend dates conversing with someone without any sex at the end if it’s not because they like you very much? Instead, the more he truly got all of that while having awesome dates with a smart, attractive, kind, and fun woman, the more appreciated he felt and the more respect he developed for me. Who wants to be one out of ten? Who feels better that way? Who wants to compete against nine other people? It does not make any sense unless you are talking about business deals. Value yourself and value others. Treat a date as something special. Treat sex as something to be shared in an intimate relationship. You will sort out all uncommittal and confused people. Learn to say “no, thanks, but no”. You will inspire serious people to value you more and maybe some people on the fence to step up and choose you. Men need a little bit of an encouragement to step up. But they need to know what is expected of them. Tell them. And walk away happily if they are not compatible to you and your goals. You will have more energy for the one who is.
susan says
Sounds to me like its the classic men-mars woman-venus thing again.
Mia says
So, Fusee, I think there is a lot of validity to what you’re saying. But 2-3 people a year is too much? Give me a break. If I make guys I’m interested in wait 6 weeks-2 months, and have occasional flings and one nighters with others, how is that bad? These waiting rules for women unfortunately work best for women who have a low sex drive. If a woman has a high sex drive, she’s screwed. And i think its pathetic when I see girls make some guys wait 6 months, etc., as though the guy is a puppy or a child waiting for a treat. That’s not the dynamic I’m looking for. Three months Or four months tops. And it feels uncomfortable to me to screen so heavily on even a first date- I’d save that scrutiny for the third/fourth.
Fusee says
@ Mia #65:
To my opinion, it’s not a matter of good or bad. No judgement. My point about numbers is about finding a compromise about having sex when it makes sense, not increasing your numbers unnecessarily (because of health risks, losing the interest of serious people, and taking bad habits of getting used to always having a man to satisfy us when we want it).
If we want to become a wife, we have to train ourselves to become a wife before making our marriage vows. There are many apsects to it, the first one being a training in character and in understanding what a marriage is and is not. Regarding sex, self-control is important. If we plan on having a monogamous marriage, sex will not always be available from our part or the man’s part. Stress, exhaustion, life circumstances, helath issues, accidents, pregnancies, temporary changes in libido will necessitate the need for each partner to practice patience and self-control. Being able to resisit temptation and sense of entitlement for sex.
Why not training for these qualities during our dating life? They are not going to suddenly appear on the wedding day. Do not get me wrong, I have a high sex drive myself and yet managed to remain partner-free for 3+ years. I learned patience, I learned self-control, and I made friends with the vibrator. In the recent years I never had to “wait” for more than six weeks (15 dates) because I used those dates to really get to know the other person, not to just sit there and look cute and fun, so it’s not like it was going to kill me and the boyfriend. Now I know that he also has basic self-control and can take of his own needs when I am not available. The wait was just enough to discover that he liked me a lot, that he wanted the same things, and that we were going to be serious.
To each their own. I know that my views are quite different than mainstream dating culture. I’m just sharing them because while I do not believe they are for everyone, I do think that some women (and men!) could benefit from looking slightly outside the current dating box. Especailly when the current box does not work.
Erica says
Tom,
I am curious now, whom do you prefer to travel with, if not a female companion? And what’s “self-belief”?
Paragon,
I still don’t understand your reasoning in making your partner’s relationship history your business. How does it have any relevance to your present safety, security and happiness with her?
Fusee,
I fail to see how your low number makes you more attractive. But then, I don’t understand how virgins can be particularly attractive to any progressive-thinking man either, so…
Mia,
regarding the waiting rules serving only women with low sex drives: I actually think it’s very imprudent to wait that long. I certainly would not want to entangle myself in any sort of definite commitment before I know what the guy is like in bed, since the way he is may very well turn out to be a deal breaker.
Here is what I don’t understand after reading all the comments: why is everyone treating the question of one’s “number” as though it’s something valid, when in fact it is a question that should never be asked? I feel that the only commenter so far who would agree with me on this is Tom, only unfortunately he is irrelevant in this, since he isn’t seriously interested in anyone in any case.
I also don’t understand why my number should be so supremely important to anyone, when it isn’t even important to me. I mean, what is it, an inextricable part of my personality or something? I’ve never been pregnant and never had an STD – beyond that, I really struggle to see any significance of my previous sexual experience to anybody at all. I can only see a beneficial side effect – and that is that thanks to my experience I know better what I like.
AnnieC says
@54
Yes a man is lying when he puts an incorrect age on his profile. He is lying to every single person who reads it, including every women he agrees to go on a date with.
It amazes me what people can convince themselves of.
Catherine says
Hi Mia, I know when you are attracted to someone it is difficult to postpone sex but if you are only waiting 6weeks -2months before you deed how well do you know the guy ? If we average the dates over 2 months at twice a week for 2 hours thats
8x 2×2=32hours. so you’ve known the guy 32 hours-ie. 3 days!
When a woman postpones sex for 6 months she is not treating him like a puppy or a child. She is taking the time to get to know him, to make sure they are on the same page, have the same expectations of the relationships, they have compatible values ,goals etc. Unfortunately, sex is an emotionally bonding experience so when one rushes in to have se with guy without checking them out throughly. one can get more emotionally bonded to a loser and make it more difficult to sever an unsatisfactory relationship
Paragon says
@ Erica
“I still don’t understand your reasoning in making your partner’s relationship history your business. How does it have any relevance to your present safety, security and happiness with her?”
I thought I already made clear my position, that, all else being equal, I would be extremely wary of women with a promiscuous history(and would thus, favor other options) – given that I feel such a history, is speaking to some risk for infidelity(and you will find that I am far from alone in holding that opinion).
@ AnnieC
“Yes a man is lying when he puts an incorrect age on his profile. He is lying to every single person who reads it, including every women he agrees to go on a date with.”
Yes, he is lying, but he is lying in the general sense – runnergirl seemed to be interpreting this as a personal affront, which it is clearly not.
And, again, my position was that is was a benign lie(which he conceded).
Of course, she is free to hold it against him – that is her option.
But, I very much doubt it was the determining factor in why he didn’t get a second date(assuming he wanted one).
CC says
If you think that women with a somewhat higher number mean an increased risk of infidelity you clearly don’t understand women very well. You need to understand the reason behind “why” the number exists. For example, there are cultural factors and peer pressure, and thus what is considered normal. Then there’s family dynamics, maybe someone doesn’t have a father or brothers and goes to an all girls school, and honestly doesnt understand men, and ends up being used a lot until they eventually learn the lessons that male family members would have taught them had they been around. Lots of examples.
Goldie says
@ Runnergirl, I’d give the guy a break for misstating his age and height on his profile. He only did it to get his foot in the door, and gave you his correct age on your first date. You apparently had a good time with him. Sounds like a great candidate for 2nd date.
I’ve had multiple people list themselves as divorced when they were in fact not. I had a guy, who’d listed himself as a moderate drinker, schedule a first date with me and then tell me that he had a DUI, could not drive, and I had to come out his way (45 miles to be exact). Now that’s serious lying in my book. Saying you’re 49 so people would actually answer your emails instead of stereotyping you as an old-timer and ignoring? not so much. Give the guy another chance.
Re waiting, only time I waited was when the man asked me to. Then again, I’m not looking to remarry or have more kids. I entered the dating market looking to find an LTR/companionship, if things work out, and to make new friends/connections along the way. (Both plans worked out.) Maybe my approach would’ve been different if I’d had more serious goals in mind. Also, I don’t attach easily as a result of physical intimacy (I only recall one exception.) Again if I knew it about myself that I had a tendency to attach to the first person I have sex with, I’d definitely be more careful. To me this is something that needs to be approached on an individual basis, there is no single rule that works for everyone.
Erica says
Paragon,
you responded with a tautology. You did not actually answer my question.
Catherine,
that is not a healthy relationship dynamic, and I cannot imagine a man with any sense of dignity or self-worth agreeing to wait that long.
But then, for me getting attached immediately after sex is rather the exception than the rule.
Goldie says
@ Paragon
I thought I already made clear my position, that, all else being equal, I would be extremely wary of women with a promiscuous history(and would thus, favor other options) — given that I feel such a history, is speaking to some risk for infidelity(and you will find that I am far from alone in holding that opinion).
Of course, you’re free to feel whatever you want to feel, but how does a person’s behavior while not in a committed relationship, in any way predict their behavior while in a committed relationship? It’s apples and oranges IMO. I fail to see the logic in this. How many people hold this opinion is irrelevant.
Rachael says
I don’t think there should be any definite or specific waiting time for sex.
If you just want to get your rocks off, go for it! Be safe, know at least a little about the person. I’d say FWB is a better bet than a one night stand.
If you want something serious then you simply wait for the time to feel right for both of you.
I would call my first serious relationship love at first sight. We had sex the first night and were inseperable for 6 years. We moved in after a month. Things went bad only (however immediately) after we got married. Which we waited, as I said, over 5 years to do. Yes, we split, but that had zero to do with how long we waited to sleep together.
Any other time I have gone with what feels right. I’ve gotten involved (simce my marriage) with only 2 men who just wanted sex. I felt sad to end it with those guys but I was not damaged by it. I wasn’t “played”. I simply never told them what I was looking for. I was fresh on the scene and still learning and growing.
I have since met my boyfriend and it’s great with him. He asked me to be his gf after 2 months, said “I love you” after 6 months. It all went as Evan says it should. I did not know Evan existed. Instincts are a beautiful thing.
I trust my own judgement and gut. If you don’t then maybe a “schedule” is right for you, but I strongly recommend learning to trust your own gut feelings. Open up to other peoples vibes, energies…whatever you want to call it. Recieve what they are putting out there in more than words and trust your instincts. You will know what is right.
Karl R says
runnergirl asked: (#51)
“my focus was that he admitted to being a liar. That’s a red flag in my book. What else is he lying about? A wife, a gf, a LTR?”
You never lie?
I’d be shocked if I told fewer than a dozen lies last week. I can only specifically remember one lie from last week. A panhandler asked if I could give her a dollar, and I responded, “Sorry.” I could have given her a dollar, and I wasn’t sorry that I didn’t.
I’m a liar, just like everyone else.
On the other hand, I’ve never lied about my relationship status. When I was pursuing non-monogamous relationships, I explicitly told women so.
runnergirl asked: (#51)
“Can you trust a liar? Can you build a healthy relationship with a liar?”
One study found that 60% of people told at least one lie within a 10 minute conversation, with an average of 2.92 lies during that period of time. Men and women were equally likely to lie. Extroverts lied more often than introverts, according to a related study.
People weren’t even consciously aware of telling most of the lies. You’d better hope you can build a healthy relationship with a liar, because you’re unlikely to find someone who isn’t.
So unlikely, that I’d bet that you’re a liar too.
Tom says
@ Katarina
“Guys like Tom are easy to spot”
Exactly — especially when I say it! That’s why I can’t understand how women get upset and angry at these men, although some of the posters here have explained how it can happen.
@ Erica
“Who do you prefer to travel with, if not a female companion?
I travel with other single guys who share my outlook on life.
“And what’s “self-belief”
I meant this in relation to Liz’s question about “the quiet times, while you’re alone.” The flip-side to a life of no commitment is the occasional barren patch when I’m alone and a bit frustrated. It’s at these quiet times that I maintain a strict mental discipline through diet, exercise, remaining positive etc. and things will inevitably turn around quickly. I’m also convinced that in a few years that when / if I actually want a relationship I’ll be able to get one (maintaining it might prove more troublesome!)
I agree that one’s “number” is a question that should never be asked (and is irrelevant). I don’t know why people bother even thinking about someone’s history — what good can come of it!
Paragon
“I would be extremely wary of women with a promiscuous history — given that I feel such a history is speaking to some risk for infidelity.
As a man who likes his stats and studies could you expound further on the correlation between promiscuity and infidelity, rather than through your own empirical inference. Like Goldie and Erica I don’t see a connection. For the record, I’m promiscuous, but I would never cheat on anyone.
Joe says
Come on. Like there’s never been a woman who lied about her age in her profile. Please. Men lie about their height. Women lie about their weight. Men and women lie about their ages. Men lie, women lie. People lie.
Liz says
Reading this I realize, again, how much I adore love, and believe it makes the world go around. While, I occupy my time with those things I enjoy, working out like mad, my extended family and friends, giving my time to causes I believe in, in the end my depth comes from my ability to give love and receive it with joy and appreciation. Ugh, I am a complete softy.
Soul says
I agree with Racheal #74 that there should not be a specific waiting time for sex…..with one caveat: if your past sex history proves the contrary, i.e. if you made the wrong decisions in the past and got burnt/hurt. In that case you need to find a solution and waiting a bit might do the trick.
AS for me, I do not wait for a specific time. I trust my instincts, and only have sex when I feel good about it and, most importantly, when I KNOW that I will not regret doing the deed regardless of the outcome. I only have sex when I want to have sex, not when HE wants to!
As I am very sensitive and easily get hurt, it is true that most of the times I just didn’t feel like having sex with most guys I’ve met (I am in a LTR now); I can’t explain why except that my gut feelings were telling me that I could not trust them.
In the end, I have had 4 long-term relationships, and I have had sex with only those 4 guys in my entire life (I am almost 35). However, for 3 of them, things happened extremely fast and we made love extremely quick. None of these relationships lasted less than 4 years….
Prior to doing the deed, there was no acknowledged commitment on either side. What I had made sure of, however, before making love is that: 1) they were not involved in any other LTR, 2) they knew sex was important for me and had real emotional consequences for me, 3) I did not demand anything from them and was ready to take responsibility if things went wrong, but I really felt sth special with them.
I will not teach my daughter about a specific waiting time for sex, but I will teach her to trust her own intuition without forgetting that
1) sex is not neutral and has emotional consequences for (most) women;
2) (most) men will happily have sex at any given opportunity. Sex is like an ice-cream for them: it’s just a treat and if allowed, they would be happy to taste all the ice creams in the world loooool;
3) (most) women expect to be valued more than a mere icecream;
4) everybody makes mistakes but if you need to take responsibility for what you do PRIOR TO doing it, and be ready to face the potential negative consequences.
Paragon says
@ Erica
” Paragon,you responded with a tautology. You did not actually answer my question. “
I restated my position, that a promiscuous history, speaks to risk factors that weigh against my consideration of a long-term mate.
How is that a tautology?
@ Goldie
” Of course, you’re free to feel whatever you want to feel, but how does a person’s behavior while not in a committed relationship, in any way predict their behavior while in a committed relationship? It’s apples and oranges IMO.”
I’m not comparing apples and oranges, because I’m not making those assumptions.
A promiscuous history is still a rather obvious risk factor, whether it speaks to a particular history of infidelity or not.
I can’t believe this is considered controversial?
Perhaps this naivety(denial?) forms some basis for the difficulty some woman have in finding commitment-minded males.
Paragon says
@ Tom
” As a man who likes his stats and studies could you expound further on the correlation between promiscuity and infidelity, rather than through your own empirical inference. Like Goldie and Erica I don’t see a connection. For the record, I’m promiscuous, but I would never cheat on anyone.”
I would think the connection rather obvious(ie. promiscuity is highly correlated with risk-taking), but I am, nonetheless happy to oblige such a polite and reasonable request:
Risk-taking gene can lead to more sex partners
THE PLAYBOY GENE: PROMISCUITY CAN BE INHERITED
Erica says
A promiscuous history is still a rather obvious risk factor, whether it speaks to a particular history of infidelity or not.
A risk factor for WHAT?
I can’t believe this is considered controversial?
And I can’t believe this is considered a logical train of thought.
What is your definition of “promiscuous”, anyway?
Paragon says
@ Erica
“A risk factor for WHAT?”
Infidelity(as I’ve mentioned before).
“And I can’t believe this is considered a logical train of thought.”
Did you even parse the references I linked to in the post above yours?
“What is your definition of “promiscuous”, anyway?”
Any tendency towards short-term, and casual sexual interactions with different partners over time.
Erica says
If anything, I would say being a virgin at the time of marriage is a much bigger predictor of infidelity down the line. Or just leaving their partner entirely, in order to get more experience and variety.
Mia says
Paragon, do you believe that promiscuity is an predictor of infidelity in men as well? In that case, I would agree. I would be VERY wary of marrying a man who had racked up more than 25 sex partners, who was a serial dater, who dated and hooked up for sport, and at any point in his life had been the type to go out on the prowl to bars and match.com and disappear on women. I know there must be plenty of those types that end up being faithful, if they find the “woman of their dreams,” but the future prospects there don’t look too good to me.
Also, women act very differently depending on whether they see a future with a man. Occasionally, if I’ve gone some 5-6 months without sex, I’ve gone home with a random guy. THAT guy probably thinks I’m a slut. However, many men also think of me as a “good girl” because I pretended not to be slutty around them and waited a good six weeks and was very demure and ladylike and never mentioned a thing about any other man in my past.
Also, consider this: I had a friend who was a virgin who began dating a man who had slept with 20 women and was really into her. She wasn’t attracted to him for months but really wanted to give him a chance because he was a good guy. THAT guy thinks she’s a “good girl” because she made him wait, even though it was easy for her to wait because she didn’t WANT to have sex with him. Did you ever consider the fact that a girl who makes you wait a long time isn’t too attracted to you? And that if a woman DOES want to have sex with a man, it’s usually a rare thing, as we find most men unattractive and not sexually appealing, and it’s actually a COMPLIMENT?
Paragon says
@ Erica
” If anything, I would say being a virgin at the time of marriage is a much bigger predictor of infidelity down the line. Or just leaving their partner entirely, in order to get more experience and variety.”
Thanks for your opinion – but I think I’ll stick to those with some credible justification for their assumptions.
And please, no straw-men or false dichotomies(ie. no one is assuming a universe where either sluts or virgins are the only options).
CC says
It makes sense. If I’d married with my ex boyfriend (my first) I would have been unhappy and left when I was older. I just didn’t have enough experience in relationships to know that he was not the one for me. Experience is necessary to know ones self.
You seem to be jumping all the way from “virgin” to “promiscuous”. You do realise there’s a medium in between that?
Lily2 says
Cheating on a partner vs. having sex while you’re single, are 2 totally different things!
Paragon says
@ Mia
” Also, women act very differently depending on whether they see a future with a man. Occasionally, if I’ve gone some 5-6 months without sex, I’ve gone home with a random guy. THAT guy probably thinks I’m a slut. However, many men also think of me as a “good girl” because I pretended not to be slutty around them and waited a good six weeks and was very demure and ladylike and never mentioned a thing about any other man in my past.”
So, your point is that the nice-girl facade is failing to get you the guy/relationship you want?
Honestly, I don’t know what to say.
Either your facade is more transparent than you suppose, or it is something else.
When I was having problems finding what I was looking for, I tried altering those variables which seemed most likely to influence my success.
So, all I can suggest, is that you try tweaking variables that enhance your value, and at the same time expand your search parameters(by considering different populations of males than you have before, both locally, and globally).
“Also, consider this: I had a friend who was a virgin who began dating a man who had slept with 20 women and was really into her. She wasn’t attracted to him for months but really wanted to give him a chance because he was a good guy. THAT guy thinks she’s a “good girl” because she made him wait, even though it was easy for her to wait because she didn’t WANT to have sex with him. Did you ever consider the fact that a girl who makes you wait a long time isn’t too attracted to you? And that if a woman DOES want to have sex with a man, it’s usually a rare thing, as we find most men unattractive and not sexually appealing, and it’s actually a COMPLIMENT?”
Duly considered.
If a guy is looking for that kind of ego-stroke, perhaps he is better off concerning himself with hook-ups to begin with.
Another kind of guy is going to tend to the stable indications in a LTR, regardless of his partners sexual motivation.
As I’ve said before, many women who enter into LTRs have traditionally made sexual concessions for long-term relationship stability – that is the only way social monogamy can work on a large scale(given that females tend to find the majority of males sexually unattractive – as you yourself acknowledge).
Thus, a significant population of deluded men who are naive enough to wait on a sexually enthusiastic partner, are going to be waiting forever.
Fusee says
@ Paragon #80: “Perhaps this naivety(denial?) forms some basis for the difficulty some woman have in finding commitment-minded males.”
I agree, there is a lot of naiverty and denial around one’s attitude towards sex. People really think they can switch from one mode to another just like that. Yeah, right! We already agree that humans are not naturally monogamous. How come “training” onself in sexual self-indulgence will attract a monogamous parter and help in remaining monogamous after the commitment???
@ Paragon #88: “So, your point is that the nice-girl facade is failing to get you the guy/relationship you want? Honestly, I don’t know what to say.”
Mia, lately you’ve expressed much confusion about how come you have trouble to find someone to commit, although you are flexible and look like a catch. Well, without any judgement and simply to state my honest opinion after reading your comment #85, this is part of your answer. Do not fool yourself, if you operate from two different persona even with different people, one is going to be the real one, and people will pick on it. And it will be to your disadvantage because especially serious people will be looking through facades. The other ones don’t care about your character and integrity. For example, I’m really good at seeing through people pretty quickly, with men and women.
As I said, there is no judgement about promiscuity, occasional or not, specific to some men or not. However if you want a solid, happy, stable relationship, my opinion is that being a part-time one-nighter and finding sleeping with married men justifiable are uncompatible with that goal, regardless of what you THINK your prospect really KNOWS. It’s not just about facts but vibes and intuition.
Paragon says
Sorry, Mia – I admit to missing your point.
I wanted to elaborate, that it is the ‘indications’ of promiscuity, that are likely to weigh against a woman’s prospects.
Do these indications always present in the case of a promiscuous history?
Obviously not, but I would argue that they present frequently enough to establish a reputation for promiscuous females, and thus represents a useful bias in the management of risk.
Rachael says
I can’t help but scratch my head at all the ladies full on arguing against a guy who says he’s not into promiscuous women.
Sure, he comes accross “holier than thou”, and it appears on the surface he is speaking against women as sexual equals. If you look a little deeper maybe you’ll see the good in what he is saying.
He doesn’t think women should just drop drawers for every guy who shows them a little attention.
He desires a quality woman with high personal standards.
Moral values are important to him.
He isn’t willing to risk himself on someone with a shady past.
He has high personal standards himself. I could deduce (though I don’t know him) that he isn’t likely to have his own shady past.
Aside from a questionable (though not un-eloquent) delivery I just can’t see the problem!?
If you feel attacked by paragon and are lashing out…
Consider for a few moments what that says about how you view your own behaviour.
CC says
The problem is from grazing over his posts is that he’s saying a non virgin is automatically promiscuous. People don’t make decisions about whether they have sex based purely on their own values, life doesn’t exist in a vacuum, there are many factors at play and reasons why people do what they do. Go to a muslim country and you’ll find lots of virgins, not because they have different desires, but because they basically don’t have the option.
Ruby says
Paragon #83 wrote:
“What is your definition of “promiscuous”, anyway?”
Any tendency towards short-term, and casual sexual interactions with different partners over time.”
Most relationships don’t work out, so your description seems awfully general to me. Plenty of single people have short-term, casual sexual interactions with others over time. ALL of the women I’ve known who have done so have been looking for an LTR/marriage. Most eventually found it and have no desire to cheat. How many short-term relationships would one have to indulge in before crossing the line into promiscuity? 5, 10, 25? And over what period of time?
Glancing at the articles you referenced, I wondered what percentage of people actually have this tendency. Couldn’t find any info about that. There was also no information about whether or not these are people who avoid marriage, or cheat after marriage, and what the gender breakdown was. Does age play a role? As one of the scientists said, “Promiscuity is a complex trait involving many other factors.”
On a personal note, one of my still very happily married friends in a lengthy relationship cheated because she had little experience with anyone other than her husband, and became attracted to and curious about another man. Another cheated because her husband began to avoid sex and intimacy (they’re now divorced, and she has happily remarried). Neither woman would have been considered particularly promiscuous before marriage.
Zaq says
Mia:”And that if a woman DOES want to have sex with a man, it’s usually a rare thing, as we find most men unattractive and not sexually appealing”
This is THE problem. It wouldn’t be so bad if the women were attracted to different men, but they are mostly all attracted to the SAME men.
The men who want a LTR, and will commit are ignored.
By focusing on a small selection of men, the women hand over power to them, so they are under no pressure to choose. They are what Mia and other women have made them. It’s not their fault.
Inevitably most women are forced to settle, and the longer they wait the greater the concession.
The men on this blog see it as plain as day, but the women seem totally blind.
Erica says
And please, no straw-men or false dichotomies
Oh, please, straw men arguments and false dichotomies are all I am hearing in this discussion. Mia’s post about men with over 25 partners is just amusing. 😀
Erica says
And one other thing, Paragon: I looked over the articles you provided links to, and neither one of them states what you have been saying here, so I don’t know why you keep referring to them as substantiation for your claim.
Goldie says
@ Paragon #83
“What is your definition of “promiscuous”, anyway?”
Any tendency towards short-term, and casual sexual interactions with different partners over time.
You just described everyone who didn’t get married straight out of high school and stay married for life. Welcome to the 21st century.
Also, from what I understand, back in the “good old days” cheating was rampant to the point where it was considered the norm, unofficially anyway. It is a lot less socially acceptable now. I consider it progress.
@ Ruby #92 — ITA with your post.
@ Rachael #91
“If you feel attacked by paragon and are lashing out…
Consider for a few moments what that says about how you view your own behaviour.”
Them’s fighting words. Who here said they felt attacked? For me personally, a better word would have been “puzzled”. If a man wants to measure contemporary women by victorian standards, that’s his choice. I just think he’s setting himself for failure. By placing unrealistic expectations on people, he’s just asking to get conned. I’ve said it before on this board and will say it again, if a man insists on knowing the woman’s number, and insists on this number being low, then that’s what he’s going to hear and he’ll have no way of finding out whether it’s true or not. (Realistically, for a woman that’s been dating for ten years or more, if she says she only had a small number of partners, it probably won’t be true.) And a woman who lies in these matters, would IMO be more likely to cheat on her partner down the line. Because, once she’s started down that slippery slope of not trusting her partner and telling him what he wants to hear instead of the truth, why stop?
Paragon says
@ Rachael
“He desires a quality woman with high personal standards.
Moral values are important to him.
He isn’t willing to risk himself on someone with a shady past.
He has high personal standards himself. I could deduce (though I don’t know him) that he isn’t likely to have his own shady past.”
An, accurate assessment, I would like to think.
I would like to add, that when evaluating a long-term prospect, I make a conscious decision to delay sex for a very important reason – I want to determine long-term potential beyond fleeting chemistry window(which I do not anticipate will last indefinitely).
I do not place the onus of this decision on my partner, because I want to know if this is someone who I enjoy spending my life with, when sex is no longer mutually enjoyable, feasible, or even possible.
And the only way I feel confident of identifying this dynamic, is through controlled experiment.
I am resolved not to fall prey to a life of mutual resentment, that so frequently results when fleeting sexual chemistry is the singular basis of a relationship.
So, when I came to the recent conclusion, that I would not trade asexual interactions with my current choice, even for sexual interactions with any considered hypothetical alternative – I knew I had, at last, found that one person I could devote my life to without reservation.
@ Zaq
“By focusing on a small selection of men, the women hand over power to them, so they are under no pressure to choose. They are what Mia and other women have made them. It’s not their fault.”
Ironically, by enabling the hook-up culture, it even works to indoctrinate the ‘nice guys’ who are otherwise not well adapted for it(ie. those who would otherwise be more inclined to a LTR), as they seek to emulate the evident success of non-committal males(whose behavior is a predictable consequence of the high-value, and abundance of sexual options, that females accord them).
Another factor weighing against a male tendency to commit, is risk aversion – the high male liability posed through marriage(such that only high value females will justify the risks).
Mia says
Zaq, many men misunderstand this concept of women finding most men unattractive. All that means is that there are hardly any men who we find attractive before getting to know them. The men I’m attracted to, I usually wasn’t at first, and they’ve often been average looking, but they won me over in the course if time. Most men make us extremely uncomfortable at first, no matter what Their looks, bc they come off as desperate for sex and with an agenda. Women at least give men they aren’t immediately swooning over a chance if their personalities seem to click. Men never do that. I bet if we went on a date where conversation was flowing and we had a pleasant evening, you’d dismiss me for some petty checklist reason – bc, say, i was 28 and not 24, protestant not catholic, mixed instead of full white, kayaked instead of canoed, too hard to get, not hard enough to get, drank too much, didnt drink enough, went to too fancy a school, or preferred salsa to swing. Men march into dates with outrageous expectations.
And paragon, you come off as obnoxious and self-important even though you make some good points. I made clear in earlier posts that I had not hooked up with a married man since I was much younger – and having an annual one night stand when I’ve gone without sex for many months does not make me a slut. Generally, I want sex with an emotional connection, but as I have been single for nearly 3 yrs, I am not willing to be celibate for so long. I don’t know any man who would do that.
Paragon says
@ Erica95
“And one other thing, Paragon: I looked over the articles you provided links to, and neither one of them states what you have been saying here, so I don’t know why you keep referring to them as substantiation for your claim.”
The articles were referencing studies like this one:
“Here we show that individuals with at least one 7-repeat allele (7R+) report a greater categorical rate of promiscuous sexual behavior (i.e., having ever had a “one-night stand”) and report a more than 50% increase in instances of sexual infidelity.”
“Humans that possess at least one allele 7-repeats or longer (7R+) display behavioral phenotypes associated with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) [31], alcoholism [32]—[33], financial risk-taking [34], disinhibition and impulsivity [24], and sexual behavior [35], [36]. The latter includes associations between DRD4 genotype and sexual desire, arousal, and function [36], as well as likelihood of initiating sexual activity among young adults [35]. “
“Individuals engaging in promiscuous sexual behaviors also face substantial risks, including diseases, unwanted pregnancies, and adverse social consequences. In addition, individuals engaging in infidelity also risk potentially losing or angering their pair-bonded partner.”
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0014162
Henriette says
I have never chased after instant attraction but it does seem that most men believe that is the key for lasting love. I wish that more men could take time to learn if they were actually compatible with the women they had hot sex with!
Tom says
Thanks for the research Paragon.
Mia
You think 30 partners is a reasonable number of partners for a 32 year old woman yet you think a man’s life limit should be 25?
You’re wary of men who prowl in bars at any point in his life yet you pick up men for one-night stands?
You say I view women as objects and don’t acknowledge that they’ve got feelings yet you habitually insult older women purely on their looks and as having let themselves go?
You claim you can pretend to be demure to hide your history yet don’t think men that you’re talking to might do the same?
I acknowledge who I am and what I want and I never judge anyone else but you seem like a bundle of contradictions to me!
Helen says
Paragon 35 wrote: “If I am going to devote my life to her security, safety, and happiness, then I sure as hell intend to make it my business [how many partners she had in the past].”
That sounds control-freakish to me on several levels.
A wife – a woman, more generally – does not need her husband or man to devote his life to her security; she can become secure herself. Nor her safety: she can learn how to be safe herself. Nor her happiness: she had better be able to find happiness for herself. You seem to have an antiquated view of how a man relates to a woman in a relationship.
“I sure as hell intend to make it my business.”
Paragon, some things are simply not your business. Another person’s number is one of them. Doesn’t matter how close two people are; some things are private. If she volunteers it, that’s fine; if she doesn’t, let it go. Insisting like hell that you will find it out is inappropriately controlling and borderline abusive.
Maybe some women dig that controlling shtick, but the vast majority of women, when they meet a guy like that, run for the hills.
Not to put Evan on the spot here: he’s an example of a man who had plenty of partners prior to marriage; yet I would place my bets on his being faithful to his wife. The one life circumstance is not a predictor of the other. It’s called “before marriage” and “after marriage.” People change their ways for their partners. My husband and I certainly did, in just about every aspect of life. That’s how two people live together peaceably.
Soul says
@ Henriette:
Why bother? People don’t need to be compatible to have hot sex.
Rachael says
@goldie I knew the consequences of the words when I wrote them. FTR I never got the impression you felt attacked or were lashing out. I didn’t name anyone for a reason. Not trying to attack, or call anyone “promiscuous”. I did get the impression that some were defending their own actions against a generalized statement. Which tends to imply they aren’t entirely confident in their own history.
It’s why I wrote “how you view your own behaviour”. Instead of “What that says about your behaviour”.
I look good on paper because I was firmly within a LTR from age 19 to 27 and married. In the 2 years since I haven’t exactly wracked up a huge number (1.5 years of that being spent with my bf). However between ages 16-19 I was paragons definition of promiscuous. I was highly sexually aware and easily bored. I couldn’t bring myself to stick around with anyone until my highly charismatc future hubby came along. I was sold from day 1. I actually like my past.
I WAS promiscuous. I do have a high sexual partner number. I would never lie about it if asked (though i’d have to really think about it). I don’t agree it is a pre-curser to infidelity or risk taking. I have never cheated and I am very analytical and don’t often make snap deciosions. Unless it’s just a frivilous decision.
I don’t disagree that he should hold out for his Unicorn. Though he has adamantly stated he already found her. I just don’t get why some seem so ANGRY at his words and go so far as to personally insult him…
Rachael says
I should add my ex-husbands number was a whopping 2 as he had LTRs in his teens. He ended up being the cheater who took a huge risk on a one night thing in our post wedding whirlwind. Go figure.
nathan says
What I find so interesting about this discussion is how the entire framework has shifted to a focus on, and scrutiny of, women’s sexual histories. And yet there’s next to nothing on male sexual histories, beyond some references to playboy types who are just looking for sex and a good time. In other words, whereas men have a total opt out by focusing on the extreme minority of men who are users, every woman is under the microscope for possible promiscuity.
Evan’s post was about not getting fooled by instant chemistry. But it’s been highjacked by 19th century moralistic notions about relationships that are currently back in vogue thanks to evolutionary psychology and similar right wing schools of thought. If we’re going to try and define promiscuity, it best be focused on both men and women, in the context of how people are actually dating, and having relationships these days. Furthermore, it would be intelligent to separate moralistic arguments from notions of quantity and also the quality of activities engaged in. There’s a difference between concern about sexually transmitted diseases due to reckless behavior, and a view that remaining a virgin, or having a “low” sex number is somehow virtuous or superior.
Meanwhile, the post was about instant chemistry, and paying attention to what men are actually doing, as opposed to the chemical high from good sex and a bit of attention. This can happen to anyone, regardless of whether they are promiscuous or fairly conservative about sexual engagement. In fact, I’d argue that the majority people reading this blog have been suckered like this before. I know I have. I’m guessing Evan is speaking to those who keep letting themselves get suckered again and again. That’s where we might enter the promiscuity argument in by saying they if you keep getting suckered by hot sex, it’s probably smart to get more conservative about entering into sexual relationships. It’s about being practical, to stop yourself from getting hurt. It has nothing to do with moral judgments and appeals to antiquated notions of purity and the like.
Karl R says
Mia said: (#98)
“Zaq, many men misunderstand this concept of women finding most men unattractive. All that means is that there are hardly any men who we find attractive before getting to know them.”
Given that the primary focus of Evan’s business is online dating, I would say that’s a major flaw. Women filter well over half of the men before they meet them. And well over half the men who get first dates get rejected for a second date (if the men wanted a second date).
And that gets back to the point where you’re ruling out 80% of the men as “unattractive” in an online context.
Mia said: (#98)
“I bet if we went on a date where conversation was flowing and we had a pleasant evening, you’d dismiss me for some petty checklist reason — bc, say, i was 28 and not 24, protestant not catholic, mixed instead of full white, kayaked instead of canoed, too hard to get, not hard enough to get, drank too much, didnt drink enough, went to too fancy a school, or preferred salsa to swing. Men march into dates with outrageous expectations.”
Your list is hilarious. Wildly inaccurate, but hilarious.
Actual list:
1. Are you attractive enough to have sex with.
2. Are you fun to spend time with (more fun than our other alternatives).
If you match both of those, you can usually get a second date.
I’ve dated women 11 years younger than me and 16 years older.
I’ve dated protestants, catholics, agnostics, 2 wiccans and 1 sikh.
I’ve dated whites, non-whites and mixed-race.
I’ve dated women who took night classes at community college, and women with Ivy League educations and advanced degrees.
I’ve dated women across the spectrum of sexual morality.
I’d have second thoughts if a woman gets sloppy-drunk on a first date, but I’ve dated teetotalers to tipsy.
That’s just counting the ones who could get a second date.
And as a member of the dance community, I find your “preferred salsa to swing” to be the funniest of all. I see this all the time, and in every case, the salsa dancer learns swing, -and- the swing dancer learns salsa.
Mia said: (#98)
“I want sex with an emotional connection, but as I have been single for nearly 3 yrs, I am not willing to be celibate for so long. I don’t know any man who would do that.”
My name is Karl. Now you do.
I haven’t had sex outside a LTR since my mid-20s. Because of this choice, I had one stretch of celibacy that lasted 5 1/2 years, and another that lasted 4 1/2 years.
Henriette said: (#100)
“I have never chased after instant attraction but it does seem that most men believe that is the key for lasting love.”
No. Most of us have someone in our past who was hot, but completely unsuitable for some other reason (controlling, mentally unstable, treated us like crap, hardly ever wanted sex, volatile temper, unfaithful).
Men chase after instant attraction, because they’re looking for hot sex. If they happen to find lasting love, that’s a side benefit, not the initial goal.
Henriette said: (#100)
“I wish that more men could take time to learn if they were actually compatible with the women they had hot sex with!”
Both Evan and I have stated that good men will take their time before proposing / getting married. We’ll be moving the relationship forward, but we won’t be rushing the relationship.
In between the hot sex, we will notice things like compatibility.
Mia says
Karl, men are the gatekeepers to commitment – so even if I want a ltr, I may never get one for the rest of my life. Which is why staying celibate until a day that may never may never come is challenging. But I respect your position.
Tom, I’m far less offended by your behavior after you disclosed here that you only hang out with girls who sleep with you right away – seems fair enough. However, mentally making fun of or ranting on the internet about ugly women with bfs is very different than going out and picking up members of the opposite sex for my personal gain, when real hearts and feelings get involved. Picking up a man with no interest in me for a one night hookup once or twice a year is different than constantly beung on the prowl for easy sex. Sorry for the other inconsistency – I meant ballpark 25/30 is ok , but I also never ask or tell. I realize the inconsistencies of some of my thoughts so I never bring up the issue of partners or exes with a guy.
Mia says
Karl, also my list was a half joke – people are so checklist driven I wouldnt put it past many men to say oh, she kayaks 2-3 times a week ? I need someone who can go sailing with me so we’re not compatible! That’s the low level dating has stooped to.
Marisol says
I called him as soon as I was done reading your article. Thank you Evan.
What did he say after I told him that I was not his casual relationship?
He said, ” Okay, thank you for letting me know and I would like to stay friends. I will try not to talk about sex with you”.
Oh boy, I wasn’t expecting that reply. I was fantazing the OH PLEASE I MADE AN ERROR, your my gal. Nope, I didn’t get that.
Lesson learned and I am glad I did it now before I have deeper feelings for him.
Thank you all for all the other comments. I used all your comments as my “strength elixir” and made the call with the 100% intention to stick with my choice. Now, I can be open for a committed relationship.
~ M
Michael17 says
Mia #98: Thanks for posting what you did about women tending to find men unattractive at first. It explains a lot that I have seen in the dating world. As in, she went out with me not because she found me good looking, but because she thought I was a decent guy and she wanted to give things a chance (see if connection develops and that often suffices even when the actual physical attraction is iffy).
RE what you said about men’s evaluation processes, I’m not sure I agree with you though. We men indeed do go a lot more by physical attractiveness than you women go by. But after that, as long as you are reasonably cool and there is some degree of compatibility, our checklists after “looks” are actually pretty short and lax. [Whether that’s a good thing is really the topic of another conversation.] Why do men not call you for a second date then?
Truth be told, it’s usually because there wasn’t enough initial physical attraction. We often go out with you for the first date—even when your looks didn’t wow us—because (a) we were going through a dry spell and some female company sounds good, (b) we didn’t get a great look at you when we asked you out (this holds true especially in OLD and double if you contact him first), (c) you were so nice and friendly (or you contacted us first in OLD—rather rare for most of us) that even if there wasn’t enough physical attraction we wanted to give things a chance. Unless the guys you are dating are all George Clooney, it is almost surely NOT because you didn’t meet a long checklist. Basic compatibility suffices.
Keep in mind too that guys are all into different things physically. Some are into curvy, some prefer tall and thin. Just because one man isn’t into you doesn’t mean another man won’t be.
Erica says
Rachael (#91),
I have to say, I am as confused by your logic as I am by Paragon’s. Where did I indicate that I felt personally offended? As a general rule I find it hard to be offended by strangers on the internet, especially when we have such vastly different value systems.
I merely wanted an explanation, which btw I still haven’t gotten.
I can provide an analogy: someone’s homophobic views would not pertain to me personally, but that doesn’t mean that I will respect them, or will not question them.
The homophobia example applies to the “moral values” point as well. To me these freedoms of human sexual behavior are equal and interrelated.
Zaq says
@Mia
Karl is correct
Men are not checklist driven !!!!
Men are only interested in how you make us feel.
It IS true that SOME men delay making a commitment.
Ignore THOSE men – sorted
Rachael says
Erica, did I direct a comment at you that I don’t remember?
I can’t answer your question specifically because I don’t even recall reading a word you wrote.
But I suppose you would find those hypothetic homophobic comments offensive would you not? Well, gee it is possible to be offended by a stranger on the net.
No one is questioning anyones sexual freedom. I doubt anyone here gives a rats ass what you do in your free time, so simmer down.
Paragon says
@ Mia
“And paragon, you come off as obnoxious and self-important even though you make some good points. I made clear in earlier posts that I had not hooked up with a married man since I was much younger — and having an annual one night stand when I’ve gone without sex for many months does not make me a slut.”
The truth is, Mia, I don’t know whether you’re a slut or a virgin, and nor do I care – so please try not to take my comments so personally, OK?
“Generally, I want sex with an emotional connection, but as I have been single for nearly 3 yrs, I am not willing to be celibate for so long. I don’t know any man who would do that.”
I know of such men, but then again, I don’t suspect they have your options.
@ Helen
“That sounds control-freakish to me on several levels.”
Of course it does, because you are posing an ad-hominem.
The truth is, I have no interest in controlling anyone.
“A wife — a woman, more generally — does not need her husband or man to devote his life to her security”
Tell that to the women who prefer a well-heeled mate.
“she can learn how to be safe herself.”
Tell that to the women who prefer a man who: ‘can make them feel protected, safe, and feminine’.
“she had better be able to find happiness for herself.”
Tell that to the women who are looking for happiness in a mate.
“You seem to have an antiquated view of how a man relates to a woman in a relationship.”
And you seem to have a deluded one.
“Paragon, some things are simply not your business. Another person’s number is one of them.”
I don’t care about numbers, per se.
I simply believe that a historical tendency to *casual sex* is a risk factor, and I am fully prepared to consider historical tendencies in evaluating the suitability of any given prospect.
“If she volunteers it, that’s fine; if she doesn’t, let it go. Insisting like hell that you will find it out is inappropriately controlling and borderline abusive.”
I’ve never made any demands of this sort – I’ve only ever made reasonable inquiries, which have always been accepted, and accommodated, so your insinuations are moot.
“Not to put Evan on the spot here: he’s an example of a man who had plenty of partners prior to marriage; yet I would place my bets on his being faithful to his wife”.
Short-term mating is an energetically costly strategy for males to pursue – as males age, there inevitability reaches a point of diminishing returns(where the increasing costs can no longer justify the expected gains).
In anticipation of this threshold, long-term mating becomes the preferred strategy for the savvy male(who then looks to monopolize the highest value mate he can find – assuming he has an attractive option).
I am not making any assumptions about Evan’s past, but I know he is smart, and I expect he is very savvy.
@ Rachael
“I WAS promiscuous. I do have a high sexual partner number. I would never lie about it if asked (though i’d have to really think about it). I don’t agree it is a pre-curser to infidelity or risk taking. I have never cheated and I am very analytical and don’t often make snap deciosions. Unless it’s just a frivilous decision.”
Prospects should be assessed on a case-by-case basis.
Sexual history is only ONE factor I would consider.
I won’t lie – it IS a significant one, but I can imagine plenty of mitigating factors that prevent it from being an overwhelming determinant.
“I should add my ex-husbands number was a whopping 2 as he had LTRs in his teens. He ended up being the cheater who took a huge risk on a one night thing in our post wedding whirlwind. Go figure.”
The problem with considering a male’s sexual history, is that opportunity is a confounder – unlike with females, you cannot
generally assume opportunities for casual sex.
So, there are cases where a male’s apparent ‘virtue’ is a consequence of limited opportunity, rather than behavioral tendency(and is thus, sensitive to new opportunities).
@ Nathan
“What I find so interesting about this discussion is how the entire framework has shifted to a focus on, and scrutiny of, women’s sexual histories. And yet there’s next to nothing on male sexual histories, beyond some references to playboy types who are just looking for sex and a good time. In other words, whereas men have a total opt out by focusing on the extreme minority of men who are users, every woman is under the microscope for possible promiscuity.”
It occurs this is because there is less contention surrounding the issue of promiscuous males, as well as the fact that opportunities for casual sex are NOT evenly distributed between the sexes(where this imbalance contributes to a differential in scrutiny).
As I’ve said before – if there is a double-standard, it exists through female complicity(ie. females are free to be equally critical of promiscuous males – but many are loathe to do so, for fear of alienating a population of males who are, evidently, of high-value).
“But it’s been highjacked by 19th century moralistic notions about relationships that are currently back in vogue thanks to evolutionary psychology and similar right wing schools of thought.”
Evolutionary psychology is a right wing school of thought?
Thanks for that – this thread was in dire need of levity.
“There’s a difference between concern about sexually transmitted diseases due to reckless behavior, and a view that remaining a virgin, or having a “low” sex number is somehow virtuous or superior.”
Who’s advancing a moral argument?
Certainly not me – I’m concerned with RISK.
Erica says
Rachael,
I and Goldie are the only females on here who said anything about Paragon’s argument. Helen addressed it from a different angle, but in any case, I wouldn’t call what she said “lashing out” either.
If you didn’t even read my posts, AND considering that you said earlier that you weren’t referring to Goldie either, then I am even more confused as to whose posts you were writing about in #91.
nathan says
Rachael
“If you feel attacked by paragon and are lashing out…
Consider for a few moments what that says about how you view your own behaviour.”
This is the comment I’m guessing Erica is reacting to. You basically call out women who disagree with Paragon’s views. Given your other comments, it’s likely that your comment is being misinterpreted in this manner.
Linking your comment at 91 with Paragon’s comment, I originally heard you saying is that because
a) you see Paragon as coming from a place of high moral standards, and b) is a guy who probably doesn’t have a “shady” past
That these women who are critical of his posts must
a) think low of themselves b) have a “shady” past they are ashamed of
c) currently are guilty of “being promiscuous,” and are attempting to defend themselves through slamming Paragon’s comments.
Now, having gone back to read your other comments, it’s clear that you are calling women out on their lack of confidence in their personal histories.
Mia, I am, like Karl, a man who has had a few long stretches of adult celibacy (a 4 year period, and a few 1 year periods), but I also believe in liberating sex from the cultural guilt and shame complexes that control so much of our behavior. You seem to be rather bitter about the men you’ve dated in the past, and you seem to be torn about your own level of attractiveness. Furthermore, while you’ve gone at lengths to defend the casual sex you have between relationships, you also sound like a woman who settles for flings out of a sense that men won’t ever be interested enough in you anyway to want a serious relationship. In other words, you’re conflicted about all of it. The available men. The casual sex. Your level of attractiveness as a long term partner. Your sexual history. Until you take a good look at yourself, and your past, I doubt you’ll be at peace with any of it, nor will you carry yourself with the kind of confidence and ease that men of good character find so attractive.
Erica says
Paragon said: Short-term mating is an energetically costly strategy for males to pursue — as males age, there inevitability reaches a point of diminishing returns(where the increasing costs can no longer justify the expected gains).
In anticipation of this threshold, long-term mating becomes the preferred strategy for the savvy male(who then looks to monopolize the highest value mate he can find — assuming he has an attractive option).
And you don’t think that this is true of females as well?
nathan says
Paragon 116 “As I’ve said before — if there is a double-standard, it exists through female complicity(ie. females are free to be equally critical of promiscuous males — but many are loathe to do so, for fear of alienating a population of males who are, evidently, of high-value).”
You may be right that some women aren’t critical enough of men who are promiscuous. I don’t know. But you’re still conflating numbers with judgment. Risk is equated to recklessness. A person can have a small number of partners in a lifetime, but can still be a much higher risk than someone who has a larger number, but was careful in selecting and also in sexual practices.
As for “levity”, I stand behind my comments. I spent much of my undergrad years studying the history of psychology. I read endless amounts of what constituted both “research” back then, as well as academic texts that men were trained with. Furthermore, as a writer and student of literature, I was fascinated by the women authors who were brave enough to face the backlash that came with writing about their actual experiences. The more you write, the more you remind me of the “doctors” referenced in Charlotte Perkin Gilman’s short story “The Yellow Wall Paper.” Coldly dissecting female behavior through abstract language and biologically-driven narratives. Coupled with a mixture of blatant, unfounded judgments, like calling Helen’s view of relationships “deluded,” subtle judgments difficult to pin down because they’re cloaked in such high level abstractions that folks are more likely to appeal to your intelligence rather than question what you’re actually saying.
Perceived promiscuity, by the way, was frequently considered by 19th century psychiatrists as a symptom of insanity. And since women were diagnosed clinically insane about as often as chickens lay eggs, you can bet that this impacted how female sexuality was considered in general. Since sex was considered by prominent figures in psychology like Herbert Spencer and Ebbings-Krafft as primary about procreation, and women were viewed as being energetically limited because of their extensive role in child birthing (and rearing), any woman who had either casual sex or multiple sex partners over a lifetime was considered “fallen,” “lust ridden,” and “irredeemable.” Men, on the other hand, were considered slaves to their sexual desires tied to their role in procreation, and were nearly universally given a free pass when it came to sexual activity outside of a single, life long marriage. These attitudes still linger in certain ways today, such as, in my opinion, the way in which promiscuity is still primarily used – especially by religious and social conservatives – as a judgment toward women. It’s extremely easy to draw parallels between what evolutionary psychologists and their cousin social sciences offer today, and what the psychologists and sociologists of the late 19th century offered on these subjects.
Feel free to dismiss such comparisons as frivolous, but I can tell you one thing – you’re endless abstractions and lack of offering much of anything in the way of personal experience will win you few supporters here – or on any relationship blog/site for that matter. Research and reason are great tools. Evan uses them often. But I seriously doubt he would have the kind of following he does if that was all he offered. People trust him primarily because of his experiences, and the experiences of the hundreds (thousands?) of women he has worked with over the years. I don’t agree with Evan all the time, but I respect that he balances offering reasoned arguments with personal experiences (either his own, clients, or friends), and that there’s some heart in what he’s doing. Relationships aren’t intellectual exercises, and no amount of research can capture the human heart.
Lily2 says
I have to say…I am SO enjoying the posts from the guys here. I’m ready to bust out the popcorn! I wish was meeting wicked smart, thoughtful, self expressive guys like you all in real life! Where ya hiding…sheesh!
Ruby says
It’s pretty clear tome that Rachael hasn’t read Paragon’s previous posts, or she would not be so quick to defend him.
Paragon wrote (115): “The problem with considering a male’s sexual history, is that opportunity is a confounder — unlike with females, you cannot generally assume opportunities for casual sex.
So, there are cases where a male’s apparent ‘virtue’ is a consequence of limited opportunity, rather than behavioral tendency(and is thus, sensitive to new opportunities)”
Why should men have any more limited opportunities than women? A man who just wants casual sex isn’t necessarily all that picky about partners.
Rachael says
@erica: now, think of the one you may have left out…
@paragon: Thank you for your insight as to why the ex may have cheated. I agree with you. I never looked at it from that angle, and it makes a lot of sense. He had only 2 girlfriends before myself. I say LTR’s but he was a teenager so that’s like a year or 2. He’s a super funny guy and intelligent but not a ladies man. A gamer. Opportunity probably did not come knocking very often. He didn’t have any close female friends before her.
@nathan: Confidence is key in many situations, and yes, that’s what I was referrencing. Not attacking anyones hostory. Just implying some may have come across personally insulted. I was really only referring to one infividual but didn’t want to single anyone out. But hey, whatever i’m a bitch. It’s cool 😉
Paragon says
@ Ruby
“Most relationships don’t work out, so your description seems awfully general to me.”
Non-sequitur – promiscuity isn’t about numbers of sexual partners, it’s about a tendency to CASUAL SEX(ie where sexual interactions are distributed in favor of casual sex).
“Why should men have any more limited opportunities than women? A man who just wants casual sex isn’t necessarily all that picky about partners.”
No, but women are – there’s your (short)answer.
@ Goldie
“You just described everyone who didn’t get married straight out of high school and stay married for life. Welcome to the 21st century.”
Really?
Most of the males I know personally are not married, and yet it is obvious that the majority of their sexual interactions resulted for long-term relationships(those who have experienced them), rather than casual sexual encounters.
“If a man wants to measure contemporary women by victorian standards, that’s his choice. I just think he’s setting himself for failure.”
Thankfully my success is not mediated by your opinion.
” I’ve said it before on this board and will say it again, if a man insists on knowing the woman’s number, and insists on this number being low”
I could care less about numbers, *unless* those numbers are speaking to an obvious tendency towards casual sex.
If that number is more recently distributed among LTRs, then this is an obvious mitigating factor.
“then that’s what he’s going to hear and he’ll have no way of finding out whether it’s true or not.”
Like I said before, I don’t need to rely upon explicit numbers to infer patterns of behavior, or to consider other related indicators of risk.
@ Erica
“And you don’t think that this is true of females as well?”
Short-term mating does not represent a female optima, given their low reproductive potential.
Thus, while they may engage in short-term mating(male optima)- their optima is to extend that mating interval for as long as possible with the highest quality male they can attract.
This can be observed, frequently, in females who succumb to designs of monpolizing a high quality male, even after the most casual of intentions.
Alas, this rarely works as planned, speaking to much female consternation.
@ nathan
“But you’re still conflating numbers with judgment.”
This is a misrepresentation of my position, which I have clarified profusely(see above).
“As for “levity”, I stand behind my comments.”
And I stand behind mine – yours were cause for amusement.
On the other hand, I have found that a solid grasp of evolutionary principles, and a deft inference to be more reliable in rendering sound conclusions.
“Coupled with a mixture of blatant, unfounded judgments, like calling Helen’s view of relationships “deluded,””
I stand behind that comment as well.
“Perceived promiscuity, by the way, was frequently considered by 19th century psychiatrists as a symptom of insanity. And since women were diagnosed clinically insane about as often as chickens lay eggs, you can bet that this impacted how female sexuality was considered in general. Since sex was considered by prominent figures in psychology like Herbert Spencer and Ebbings-Krafft as primary about procreation, and women were viewed as being energetically limited because of their extensive role in child birthing (and rearing), any woman who had either casual sex or multiple sex partners over a lifetime was considered “fallen,” “lust ridden,” and “irredeemable.””
I am unhinderd by ‘special pleading’, so you might want to consider more reasonable arguments.
“It’s extremely easy to draw parallels between what evolutionary psychologists and their cousin social sciences offer today, and what the psychologists and sociologists of the late 19th century offered on these subjects.”
These ‘parallels’ are apparently more of a concern to you, than me.
I’ll stick to worrying about whether the arguments they pose are sound or not.
“Feel free to dismiss such comparisons as frivolous, but I can tell you one thing — you’re endless abstractions and lack of offering much of anything in the way of personal experience”
My personal experiences will be relevant when my arguments depend on anecdotal evidence.
“will win you few supporters here”
I am not here to win support, but rather to interact, and learn from the many insightful contributions to this blog.
Helen says
Applause to nathan and Erica!
What seems to underlie all of Paragon’s comments is a negatively judgmental attitude toward women – women as a whole, not necessarily women in particular (although I would imagine the one is linked to the other, at least partially). He tries to defend his viewpoints using evolutionary psychology.
The problem with that is that evolutionary psychology – indeed, any field of evolution – is inductive, not deductive. Since it is not possible to go back to the past and uncover every piece of evidence needed to say A causes B, we have a number of competing hypotheses, NONE of which can ever be proven with a demonstration – QED.
Interlaced with his hypotheses (which are mere hypotheses, not facts) is a strong moralistic attitude. Now, that’s perfectly fine if he’s discussing what HE wants on a personal level. But to attempt to intertwine it with broader scientific arguments is specious.
Paragon says
@ Helen
“What seems to underlie all of Paragon’s comments is a negatively judgmental attitude toward women – women as a whole”
I am not ascribing judgements to any universal claims about the female sex – that is just another desperate ad-hominem diversion.
“The problem with that is that evolutionary psychology – indeed, any field of evolution — is inductive, not deductive. Since it is not possible to go back to the past and uncover every piece of evidence needed to say A causes B, we have a number of competing hypotheses, NONE of which can ever be proven with a demonstration – QED.”
Argument from ignorance.
The theory of Evolution meets the standards of any other scientific field of knowledge – namely it is falsifiable, and verifiable.
That it’s broad synthesis is not subject to a singular feat of deductive resoning is irrelevant to the accepted value of scientific inquiry, and investigation.
“Industrial melanism is adaptive melanism caused by anthropogenic alteration of the natural environment in terms of industrial pollution. As soot, smoke and other industrial pollutants from factories darken the landscape and because many organisms rely on camouflage to avoid predation, this sudden change in their environment makes them highly vulnerable to predators. This creates a strong selective pressure which will see any organism with a darker colour much more likely to survive and contribute to the gene pool of the next generation.”
(note this evidence of evolutionary adaptation can be observed under our very eyes)
“Interlaced with his hypotheses (which are mere hypotheses, not facts) is a strong moralistic attitude.”
I think you are confusing morals with an expression of PERSONAL BIAS(which makes no appeal to morality).
“Now, that’s perfectly fine if he’s discussing what HE wants on a personal level. But to attempt to intertwine it with broader scientific arguments is specious.”
It is only specious if my claims are false(where the burden is on YOU to show).
Evan Marc Katz says
I’m staying out of this ridiculous catfight, but mostly because I find Paragon’s posts entirely incomprehensible.
It’s not that the concepts are over my head, but the language is so dense and overwrought that his point invariably gets lost in his prose.
Andrew Sullivan’s Poseur Alert comes to mind.
If I were everybody else here, I would simply ignore these posts, since everyone else (myself included) is probably skipping or skimming them anyway.
nathan says
Katarina 55: “Paragon: women are not slow. Some of us were in long term relationships, like marriage that we tried to make work but came to the realization that it just wasn’t going to work. So years can turn into decades.” A forgotten comment that actually is quite important. Numerous people have chemistry driven relationships that turn into marriages, or long term relationships – frequently due to the presence of children. Or shared possessions, like homes and cars. Their choices didn’t lead them any closer to a dynamic, loving relationship than those who hop from partner to partner. If both people in these relationships stayed faithful, then we can assume a lower risk of STDs. But these are often the kinds of relationships where someone, sometimes both partners stray.
Meanwhile, I don’t read Paragon’s posts as worried as much about STDs as being concerned about the potential faithfulness of a partner. That’s really where this discussion has gone. A debate about whether women who have fallen for instant chemistry even have the capacity to be faithful, long term partners. That’s a right wing frame if I’ve ever seen one.
Evan: I don’t blame you for staying out of all of this. I enjoyed it for awhile, probably because I think there needs to be more effort made amongst relationship writers to debunk the love fest towards evo psych. But I think I’ll leave that for another time now.
Goldie says
Re ## 106, etc. I have nothing about evo. psych. in and of itself (from what I’ve read about it so far), but I can see how it can be hijacked by certain groups to suit their needs, and to promote a double standard. All one has to do is state that men have evolved to sow their wild oats, and women, to stay home and have babies. Then you add that it’s the natural order of things, and anyone that disagrees with it, disagrees with science. Bingo, you have just gone back two centuries and called it progress.
Helen says
Evan, I opened up that link you sent and started laughing out loud. 😀 Your advice in 126 is sound.
nathan and Goldie, I feel the same way about evo psych. Of course, both sides (multiple sides, I should say) have twisted it to suit their needs, not just the right-wing side. In any case, it’s not a precise science, and hypotheses shouldn’t be presented as “proof” for anything or support for that double standard Goldie mentions.
Ruby says
EMK #126
You nailed it! Thanks for the reality check.
Karl R says
Mia said: (#108)
“men are the gatekeepers to commitment”
You’re wrong.
Six years ago I was dating a woman, and I wanted an exclusive relationship with her. She decided that she wanted to pursue an exclusive relationship with someone else instead. How could I possibly have been the gatekeeper in that situation?
In a relationship, either person can act as a gatekeeper (to sex, to a long-term relationship, to marriage) by saying “No” or by choosing not to initiate further action. By claiming that men are “gatekeepers”, you’re ignoring your own power in the situation.
Mia said: (#108)
“even if I want a ltr, I may never get one for the rest of my life. Which is why staying celibate until a day that may never may never come is challenging.”
Why are you bothering to justify your choices? My sexual behavior reflects what works for me, not some moral code that I believe others ought to follow.
If you want to hook up with men occasionally (or Tom wants to hook up with women regularly), I have no issues provided that you’re behaving in a responsible manner.
Mia said: (#108)
“Picking up a man with no interest in me for a one night hookup once or twice a year is different than constantly beung on the prowl for easy sex.”
But it appears that you have a problem with your own behavior. You’re trying to justify your own behavior by comparing it to Tom’s (which you see as worse), whereas Tom (#27, 47, 76, 101) merely reports his own behavior without caring whether anyone approves or disapproves.
I find Tom’s attitude to be a lot healthier than yours.
Mia said: (#109)
“people are so checklist driven”
Based on what people write on this blog, women are more likely to have a long checklist and follow it.
A few years ago, I pointed out to one woman that her dating problems stemmed from her checklist -and- I pulled together a list of 18 “must-haves” she had stated in various blog posts.
If you’re blaming men’s long checklists for your lack of dating success, you’re telling yourself a lie in order to feel better. It might succeed in making you feel better, but it won’t improve your chances in the long-term.
Ruby asked: (#121)
“Why should men have any more limited opportunities than women? A man who just wants casual sex isn’t necessarily all that picky about partners.”
If you assume that men want more casual sex than women (which evidence indicates), then men will have more limited opportunities for casual sex.
Of course, this also assumes that the excess supply of men seeking casual sex are unwilling to use the services of prostitutes … so a certain degree of pickiness must be assumed.
Lily2 asked: (#120)
“I wish was meeting wicked smart, thoughtful, self expressive guys like you all in real life! Where ya hiding…sheesh!”
I always find this sort of question ironic.
For about 2 years (non-consecutive) I did online dating. Despite the number of women who have complained about all the poorly written profiles out there, I did not receive above-average results by being an articulate exception to the rule.
Or to put it another way, being articulate doesn’t help us get our foot in the door (even with the women who appreciate that trait). It helps us stay in a relationship once we’re already there.
Evan said: (#126)
“It’s not that the concepts are over my head, but the language is so dense and overwrought that his point invariably gets lost in his prose.”
You’re too kind. Paragon’s posts are boring. He keeps rehashing the same points (often in the same words) without putting any effort into making his thoughts clear and concise.
More importantly, he is more concerned with talking about evolutionary psychology than saying something relevant to the actual topic. For example, see Paragon’s response (#25) to Jane’s question (#7). Compare that to the other responses (#9, #10, #12) people made to the same question.
Shelly says
I wish Will Hunting had showed up in this thread about 100 posts ago. Would’ve saved me a lot of scrolling…
Shelly says
Marisol #110 – I sympathize. I’d suggest you skip to the end more quickly and less painfully by cutting off the ‘friendship’ as well, as it’s not going to be much of a change from what you have now: He checks in occasionally to maintain a loose connection and monitor if sex might be on the horizon. If he has a particularly dry spell or is lonely, he might step it up a bit for a week, even hang out with you, but then back to the same pattern.
As for his friendship offer – is he going to be a source of companionship, someone who’s interested in what’s going on in your life? Would he help you out if you had an emergency, or check in on you if you go through a difficult time? Likely not… but that’s what friends do, and for that, stick with your real friends. When you’ve been stuck on someone, these kind of ‘friendships’ only keep you hanging on, hopeful and unable to truly move on…
Paragon says
@ nathan
“Meanwhile, I don’t read Paragon’s posts as worried as much about STDs as being concerned about the potential faithfulness of a partner. That’s really where this discussion has gone. A debate about whether women who have fallen for instant chemistry even have the capacity to be faithful, long term partners. That’s a right wing frame if I’ve ever seen one.”
Would it disappoint you to learn that my concerns are NOT politically motivated?
“Evan: I don’t blame you for staying out of all of this. I enjoyed it for awhile, probably because I think there needs to be more effort made amongst relationship writers to debunk the love fest towards evo psych.”
Debunk, or censor?
@ Goldie
“All one has to do is state that men have evolved to sow their wild oats, and women, to stay home and have babies.”
No one is arguing that.
“Then you add that it’s the natural order of things, and anyone that disagrees with it, disagrees with science. Bingo, you have just gone back two centuries and called it progress.”
So, we should instead ignore science that clashes with our preconceptions?
Bingo, you’ve just gone back to the DARK AGES.
Only, I don’t know what you would call that.
Misology, perhaps?
@ Helen
“In any case, it’s not a precise science, and hypotheses shouldn’t be presented as “proof” for anything or support for that double standard Goldie mentions.”
And if the evidence/findings support these asymmetries(which are being discounted as ‘double-standards’)?
@ Karl R
“You’re too kind. Paragon’s posts are boring.”
I agree to an extant – I generally enjoy reading other posts(particularly yours) more than my own(with the possible exception of this one, of course).
“More importantly, he is more concerned with talking about evolutionary psychology than saying something relevant to the actual topic. For example, see Paragon’s response (#25) to Jane’s question (#7). Compare that to the other responses (#9, #10, #12) people made to the same question.”
This is a general criticism that speaks to a particular post, and I fully accept that – in failing to quote the more relevant parts, I can see how it would contribute to some confusion.
But, I would argue that not ALL of my comments are irrelevant.
And I would also argue that irrelevant comments, and verbose/abstruse prose is NOT the outstanding grievance of my apparent detractors(with the exception of possibly Evan, and yourself – whose criticisms I largely accept).
Tell me, Karl, as a poster of evident integrity, if you think addressing your points in future postings is likely to allay my critics?
Given that this thread has mutated into an attack on the scientific validity of evolution(with nary a word uttered in defense, save from myself), I think it speaks something to an aversion for evolutionary discourse.
Which is useful to know, I guess.
Erica says
Given that this thread has mutated into an attack on the scientific validity of evolution(with nary a word uttered in defense, save from myself)
Oh, that is not at all what this thread has turned into! And to pronounce all your claims as scientifically valid – wow, that’s just… rich.
But then, by now I am convinced that you have no reading comprehension. Or at least, a very distorted kind of reading comprehension.
Paragon says
@ Erica
” And to pronounce all your claims as scientifically valid — wow, that’s just… rich.”
I made no such pronouncement(you were saying about problems with ‘reading comprehension).
But if you have problems with a particular claim, why don’t you address them specifically?
Unless, of course, this is merely a rhetorical diversion tactic.
Tom says
@ Paragon:
“I would argue that not ALL of my comments are irrelevant”
I agree; there’s one little nugget of wisdom in #97 in particular which helped you realise that you had found your life partner:
“I came to the recent conclusion that I would not trade asexual interactions with my current choice, even for sexual interactions with any considered hypothetical alterative.”
This is a great simple mental test for anyone considering the possibility of longevity with their current choice (particularly men). I, for one, actually quite enjoy your posts and your ability to defend yourself.
Mia says
Karl, yes, I see how a man would think that women’s tendency to find most men unattractive would hurt them online. However, it’s hard to understate just how many men, online or off, are simply ugly, overtly desperate, and make us feel uncomfortable with general creepiness and agenda-pushing. Hardly any women are looking for some super hot guy – in fact, before I came on this site, I had not been aware of any more than 1-2 women who were checklist driven and seeking a hottie. Rather, we are looking for a man who does not repulse us. Online, I look at guys I have some things in common with, who are my age, and arent ugly, even if I don’t feel instant attractiOn. Unfortunately, there will be many great guys I inadvertently pass up on bc I don’t have time to date everyone on the Internet. Which is why I really make an effort to maximize real life opportunities.
Lily2 says
@Karl: “For about 2 years (non-consecutive) I did online dating. Despite the number of women who have complained about all the poorly written profiles out there, I did not receive above-average results by being an articulate exception to the rule.”
I can only speak for myself…. Attraction starts with my mind! I am attracted to men online and off, who are articulate and self aware. i always feel happy to see you have posted on a thread for this very reason!
Zaq says
@Mia
You are still not getting it.
“we are looking for a man who does not repulse us”
Sounds perfectly reasonable, if that was said by men about women.
But unfortunately we have this: ” it’s hard to understate just how many men, online or off, are simply ugly”
This is simply supporting the OKCupid study that showed that women think that most men are physically unattractive.
If most men are ugly, whoever is left must represent a small proportion of the total male population.
I think we can therefore infer that what you are really saying is that you don’t need to find a 10, as you are perfectly happy to date a 9, even if there is no initial attraction !
Well great, but if ALL women have the same attitude, you are going to be fighting each other to get access to a relatively small number of men.
And what are these men supposed to do when faced by a horde of eager females, many of whom are far younger and more attractive than you ?
Mia says
Zaq, to be honest, a lot of the stuff I read about in the blogs and comments, I simply never see in real life, for whatever reason. One of them is the myth that all women want hot alpha males. One thing I should make clearer is that there are only maybe 1 percent or 5 percent of men that all women find attractive. After that, there are a lot of divergent tastes. Men I find ugly, my friends may think are cute, and vice versa. I try to go for men that a lot of other women won’t find attractive so I don’t have too much competition. I stay far away From serial daters. So much for women is about the guys personality, his approach, whether he seems like a guy who will treat us well and we can be ourselves around. I’ve dated men I thought were ugly at first but they won me over. At the same time , I’ve been played or rejected by some uglier men and been pursued and treated better by cute ones. I Don’t think men should be disheartened by the stats about most men being considered unattractive – it does not mean as much as you think it does.
Karl R says
Paragon asked: (#134)
“Tell me, Karl, as a poster of evident integrity, if you think addressing your points in future postings is likely to allay my critics?”
You’ll never get everyone to agree with you, so you’ll always face criticism. But I suspect you’d prefer to have people disagree with you because they have evidence or experiences that don’t match the information you’ve posted.
This post (#134) is one of the more readable ones you’ve written. By using bold and italics, you visually broke up a long post into shorter pieces. It’s also much easier to separate the original quote from your response.
I would still recommend that you bring the vocabulary level down to a high school level (not the level that you and I knew in high school, but the level most high school students would use). That will guarantee that 99% of the readers will understand every word you say.
Paragon said: (#134)
“I would argue that not ALL of my comments are irrelevant.”
True. Even better, you have a terrific record of being factually correct. (That’s one of my pet peeves.)
But I would say that most of your comments about evolutionary psychology are a side-tangent to the discussion.
Example:
Look at Mia’s post (#138) and Zaq’s response (#140).
Observed behavior: Women collectively find 80% of men to be below average attractiveness; Mia finds most men ugly, overtly desperate and/or creepy.
Consequences: Most women chase a small pool of men; this causes most women to be frustrated or disappointed; that small pool of men has the option of treating women as disposable and replaceable.
At this point, you want to explain how all this is caused by evolutionary psychology … but that’s irrelevant to the discussion until someone asks “Why do women act this way?”
If someone asks that question, knock yourself out.
Paragon said: (#134)
“Given that this thread has mutated into an attack on the scientific validity of evolution(with nary a word uttered in defense, save from myself), I think it speaks something to an aversion for evolutionary discourse.”
Despite the college level vocabulary, I agree with the specific words you chose. Most of the aversion is for the discourse, and how the concept is used.
Problem 1
Evolutionary psychology states that humans didn’t evolve to be monogamous. Some people use that to excuse their own infidelity, even though evidence demonstrates that most people consciously override that instinctive tendency.
Problem 2
Focus on evolutionary psychology can lead to tunnel vision. For example, you put strong emphasis on a partner who does not have the risk-taking gene. Consequently, you seem to be overlooking the fact that most infidelity occurs when the relationship is falling apart (possibly because the risk is lower). If I can create and maintain the right environment within my marriage, I can affect the possibility of infidelity more than you can by screening.
Problem 3
We’ve all seen studies where researchers did a great job of gathering unbiased factual data, and then drew conclusions which weren’t adequately supported by the facts. (And reporters do this more often than the researchers.) Some of the people who do this are sloppy. Others are pushing a particular agenda.
Problem 4
While evolutionary psychology is technically falsifiable and verifiable, that doesn’t mean that any particular statements have been proven or verified. More often, a trait is observed (like the OkCupid data), then an evolutionary psychology explanation is formulated to fit the facts. It’s certainly a possible explanation for the trait. It’s often the most plausible explanation. But it’s not proven.
I believe EvoPsych is at least partly correct, perhaps mostly correct. (It’s too new for it to be completely correct.) But the aforementioned problems are so common that I have a knee-jerk reaction against EvoPsych explanations.
I’m sure I didn’t answer your question completely, but hopefully I answered it adequately.
Rachael says
Not all women have the same attitude. I don’t, and I know many women who don’t. I think the majority of men are attractive. I simply really like men. I loathe to use the term “ugly” for anyone when referring to appearance.
For me a mans sexiness comes from his confidence, the way he moves, the way he smiles and laughs, his eyes, his sense of humour and values, the way he dresses, and his hands (got a thing for hands) lol. Yes I suppose it was hard for me to judge if I would find someone sexy online. Although you can tell a lot from a few pics. What is the person doing at the time, are they happy, do they have an enticing look in their eyes etc. I’m more inclined to judge by what the man says than what his pictures look like. Then again I can’t remember ever being concerned that I might meet a physically ugly man. “What if he’s ugly?” has just never crossed my mind. The way someones face or body looks doesn’t concern me.
Men are awesome. They should feel attractive and confident no matter what they’re born with. As should women. That’s the real key.
Mia says
Ugly was not the best word to use – it was shorthand for saying that the thought of kissing the person would be repulsive. Since I’ve changed my mind about a mans attractiveness all the time, I don’t put much stock into my first impression, though there are some men I just know I could never be attracted to.
nathan says
Karl’s response to Paragon was very fair. I’d like to add a few simple points from perspective as to why I tend to respond the way I do when evo psych comes up.
1. While I would never dismiss evo psych research out of hand, I simply disagree with the framework and conclusions too often to support it as a main understanding of human relationships. This has nothing to do with a rejection of science, or any other such red herring. It’s simply not an approach that I am going to go along with much of the time. However, if something does strike me as valid coming from evo psych studies, I’ll acknowledge that.
2. Karl’s point about language usage. I have a Master’s degree. Spent years reading psych and sociology research journals, both in my studies, and post graduation. I choose to write in language that is more accessible because I know that a)some folks aren’t going to understand me otherwise, b)some folks could understand me, but feel it’s too much work trying, and c) some folks will just skip over what I’m saying because it looks elitist and arrogant.
3. Theories and research studies are tools for understanding, but they never – in my opinion – touch the entirety of our individual relationships or even group relationships for that matter. Personal experience and individual differences always matters in my view, even when people can demonstrate that someone has faulty thinking. Emotional content is frequently downplayed or diminished in theoretical frameworks and it’s only been in recent decades that there has been a burst of studies focusing on issues like emotional intelligence for example. And I’m highly skeptical of any theory or field of study that speaks in universal terms about human behavior. We’re just too diverse, and frankly, too much of the universalizing is being done on the basis of research conducted on a majority white, and mostly Western, subjects. Hardly representative.
Goldie says
@ Karl and Nathan — standing ovation! Good, good posts as always.
@ Paragon #134
“So, we should instead ignore science that clashes with our preconceptions?
Bingo, you’ve just gone back to the DARK AGES.
Only, I don’t know what you would call that.
Misology, perhaps?”
Me? Hatred of logical reasoning? Dude, sorry to disappoint, but you’ve got the wrong person. Of course, my ladybrain isn’t evolved enough for the manly art of logical reasoning, and for that, I apologize. I’m doing the best I can with what the good Lord… erm, evolution has given me.
But to your question no, we should not ignore the current findings of science, (Though these particular findings just so happen to conveniently support your preconceptions.) We should, however, approach science using the scientific method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method) — allow inquiry, apply logical reasoning, and work towards reducing biased interpretation of results. Furthermore, we should not confuse scientific findings with morals, and have them dictate the way we live our lives, let alone use them to dictate to others how they should live their lives. With that said, I’ve got to ask. Based on your posts on this thread, are you sure you’re not confusing science with god, and evolutionary psychology with his word? Because how else can you analyze this massive body of scientific research only to arrive at the same fundie conclusions you’ve already had to begin with?
susan says
Daria way up at 35 or so said it well i think. And the person saying it would be great if we could all be honest. but the key sure is listening to the words but watching to see if they match the actions.
Earlier this year i ended up in a phantom relationship with ”Mr perfect” who had all the right words and none of the follow up. Hard lesson for me.
This week I have had two low key dates with a guy (ironically introduced to me by Mr Perfect) – both were organised via text message and follow up same but i don’t mind at all. i have no doubt that this will eventually progress to phone calls and visits and i am in NO hurry to accelerate (thank you EMK I’m paying attention!). I respond warmly and enthusiastically and today in response to ”i want to see you again”, i said, ”well perhaps you should ask me out then”. watch this space. How do I know he’s on the commitment page (in general not necessarily with me – too soon!). ? He contacts me every day. has made the effort to find out about my friends and interests, and also been very clear about what he is looking for – a real relationship not casual dating. there’s been flirting but no overt sexual conversation.
the difference for me this time around is i am seeing someone who’s words and actions – so far – are integrated. that i think, is how you know when someone is serious.
Paragon says
@ Karl and Nathan.
All valid and welcome criticisms, and I thank you for them(in particular the one about NOT forcing an evolutionary explanation).
I would like to add, that it IS important to keep things in perspective when attempting to explain human behaviors through evolutionary causes.
These kinds of inferences are FAR from rigorous, and can rely upon assumptions which are equivocal in their findings, or untested(so there remains room for contention between hypotheses).
I try to avoid these pitfalls as well as I am able, and regard evo-psych interpretations as an abductive guideline, and/or explanatory aid.
Paragon says
@ Goldie
“But to your question no, we should not ignore the current findings of science, (Though these particular findings just so happen to conveniently support your preconceptions.”
Conclusions which I ACCEPT, have refuted my intuition on more than one occasion – I am NOT afraid to be wrong(and admit it), if the refinement of error is a path towards knowledge.
“Furthermore, we should not confuse scientific findings with morals, and have them dictate the way we live our lives, let alone use them to dictate to others how they should live their lives”
I tend to agree.
“With that said, I’ve got to ask. Based on your posts on this thread, are you sure you’re not confusing science with god, and evolutionary psychology with his word?”
Quite certain, but thanks for asking.
“Because how else can you analyze this massive body of scientific research only to arrive at the same fundie conclusions you’ve already had to begin with?”
Independently of the biases you are alleging(supposing?), I can assure you.
Again, thanks for asking(I find it highly entertaining that you are attempting to relate a fundamentalist bias with evolution).
Goldie says
Apologize for double-posting — wanted to add. The way I understand evo psych, it is a great way of helping us understand why we tend to feel and act the way we do. It is not there to tell us that this is the one right way to think and act. If anything, it may help us correct our behavior when our instincts steer us away from today’s reality, and lead us to behave in a way that is unproductive or hurtful to others. An example, the “men evolved to sow the wild oats, and women to raise babies” concept that I referred to earlier. While it is highly likely that we did evolve that way, the evo psych books that I have read on the subject also add that the end goal of this behavior in humans was to ensure the survival of our species, and, to that end, to ensure the maximum possible number of children being born and raised to adulthood. I’d hazard a guess that right now, survival of our species and underpopulation of the planet are the least of our problems — if anything, it’s overpopulation we should worry about. So, while this behavior could have made perfect sense at one point, it does not apply now. We have not stopped evolving. It’s an ongoing process.
Additionally, the sciency slut-shaming that I’ve seen in this thread really rubs me the wrong way. Maybe I’m jealous. My degree is in math/CS. In my field, we don’t have the luxury to use research results as a tool for insulting people. Doesn’t work that way with calculus or computer architecture. Bummer, I know.
Karl R says
Lily2 said: (#139)
“I can only speak for myself…. Attraction starts with my mind! I am attracted to men online and off, who are articulate and self aware.”
I’d say that’s an achieveable goal in a boyfriend. My fiancée was looking for intelligence and a sense of humor. All of her exes have both traits in abundance.
But Evan’s advice about boyfriends still applies. I’m not the most intelligent or the funniest man my fiancée ever dated. I’m just the first who had both traits -and- was a decent boyfriend too.
Paragon said: (#149)
“(I find it highly entertaining that you are attempting to relate a fundamentalist bias with evolution)”
Why do you find that “highly entertaining”?
Unless I’ve personally tested a scientific principle in a controlled enviornment, I’m taking the principle on faith. Frequently, I learned the principle from someone who hadn’t tested the principle either, so they were taking it on faith too.
I’m being told what to believe by people who were told what to believe … much like my religious upbringing.
And when I tested the Law of Conservation of Mass in a lab, my results disproved that principle. So I’m definitely taking that principle on faith, even though it contradicts my personal experience. (And I rationalize my belief by assuming I must have substandard skill in the lab.)
Even the top scientific minds in the world have only tested the principles inside their own discipline (or sub-discipline). In other disciplines, they’re taking things on faith too.
Think it through. How many of the scientific laws and principles that you believe are ones that you have personally proven?
Paragon said: (#148)
“I try to avoid these pitfalls as well as I am able, and regard evo-psych interpretations as an abductive guideline,”
Did you see the Dictionary.com definition of “abductive”?
Paragon says
@ Karl R
“ Why do you find that “highly entertaining”?
Unless I’ve personally tested a scientific principle in a controlled enviornment, I’m taking the principle on faith. Frequently, I learned the principle from someone who hadn’t tested the principle either, so theywere taking it on faith too.”
Yes, the the only thing that differs between different beliefs, are the justifications.
But, to answer your question, I found her comment (a more or less obvious strawman) ironic – given that Fundamentalist thinking and Evolution are conventionally held to reside at polar opposites of an ideological spectrum.
” Did you see the Dictionary.com definition of “abductive”?”
Yup, I meant abductive reasoning.
Thanks for catching that.
Helen says
Goldie: come on.
You wrote: “My degree is in math/CS. In my field, we don’t have the luxury to use research results as a tool for insulting people.”
Your field is ripe with possibilities, dear. They don’t have to be insults; flirtation is a much nicer form of communication. Next time you see a man, say to him:
“Is that a Dirac delta function in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?”
Weed out any feller who doesn’t know what you’re talking about.
😉
Natalie says
THANK YOU EVAN.
Honestly, this article was like reading about my own recent experience.
I met a guy online about 5 weeks ago. We text back and forth all day everyday. We shared laughs and jokes, pictures, anecdotes; our whole lives. We joked that he was a male version of me, and me a female version of him. Something just clicked with this guy.
We had the perfect first date. Its been the best date I have been on in the past 2 years of online dating. Huge chemistry.
We spoke in depth all night about our lives, our families, our aspirations. We played pool at a local bar. We kissed. We flirted outrageously all night. Others there asked if I was his g/f and he said yes. We went back to his and we slept together. I never do that, but it felt natural to do so. I was so sure he was the one for me. The next morning he made me breakfast. He played me his favourite music ok his laptop. He played guitar and sang to me. I sang and harmonised with him, and gave him goosebumps. He was so attentive. Again, it just felt natural.
Second date went well. We had drinks in the pub, only this time when he came back to mine we didn’t sleep together. But again, we flirted and laughed and joked the night away, play fighting on my bed, but nothing more.
Then, after convincing myself that he could be the one, he became distant. I text a few times, lighthearted, positive texts, jokey, flirty, nothing clingy… And I got minimal response. I have been so heartbroken. Crying so much, over analysing, wondering what I did wrong.
But clearly he is just not that into me as the line goes. If he wanted me, he’d let me knowTo
He moves to France next week, which makes me think that his distance is due to his relocation and him not wanting to get involved in anything committed with me. So maybe it’s that. But still. Being ignored is so tough when someone has been a constant presence in your life for over a month. And hope do get raised.
He has some of my jewellery which he said he would give me back begs he leaves the country. I’ve decided to tell him that I like him as more than just a friend when we meet up. If he feels the same, great. If not I will not have lost anything.
Your article has kept me same this past week. THANK YOU!
No regrets.
YOLO xxx
James says
@Natalie
I’d just like to chime in and say how much i enjoyed reading your post.
Three months ago I was lucky enough to meet a beautifiul woman, who was employed as a temp at my place of work and we hit it off straight away. We exchanged glances, then numbers and began to text more or less constantly.
As i had fallen quickly a few times before in my life, with the trysts ending for me badly, i held off feelings – but something pulled me emotionally into her.
We began dating with very heavy affection and after about two months we became intimate and for me, it felt right.
Onto the last time we met at my place. I asked where she wanted to go with it all and she kinda baulked and laughed 🙂 So I pushed for intimacy. She seemed uncomfortable at the prospect and kinda left me in limbo and departed shortly after. A couple of text’s have since been banded back and forth, but it seems to have lost its way.
In total we had about 8 dates and had sex once.
I’m not sure whether she was playing games, had mixed intentions or genuinely didn’t know what she wanted? She perhaps didn’t want anything heavy? Was it me? Is it her? Maybe she’s just not that into me? She never said, or perhaps i just didn’t pick up on her subtle hints?
Whatever the weather, it doesn’t matter.
I guess the point i am trying to make is; tell him. Tell him how you feel. Love is a gamble, maybe he’ll confess his love, maybe he’ll bail. The only way you’ll find out for sure is by giving him a chance to hear what you have to say…
Rose says
Oh boy, I experienced one of these last year. This all describes him and the situation to a T. We had horrible timing, he chased me when I wasn’t looking for a relationship and of course made me almost fall for him when I was just a rebound and a second option for him. Then after over 2 months of EXTREME mixed signals, he just *poof* slowly vanishes for 2 weeks with no explanation and I was very depressed over it for months. That is until I went out with some mutual friends we had one night and starting spending more time with my current boyfriend- who happens to be one of his (the ex’s) good friends. He is an absolute sweetheart and I honestly am ashamed at myself for accepting how the last one treated me. That oxytocin ‘high’ you feel with guys like that will feel like absolutely nothing compared to how it does when a man truly is in love with you. Makes me wonder if we go through all of these painful relationships to help us better appreciate when the right one finally comes along.
Fer says
Hhanks Evan for this article. Ive just got out of a relationship with exactly the same problems…it didnt take me more tan a few weeks to start feeling something wasn’t going well, if he never calls…and all those stuff that when you’re in love justifie (“he’s taking his time, blabla). I’m son sad I couldnt give up in the right moment, so when I complained about the situation the guy reacted very bad (he also knew I was in love!), and the one who decided not to see each other was him. It’s been a week since then and still no signals from him (I didn’t answer his rude and full of excusses message either). But maybe as you said, its better to leave things that way…in other case, a very interested man, wouldn’t let a little discussion separate us.
annet says
great insights. u hv touched every part of this topic. thx
catherine says
Hi
Really pleased to have read this. Meet a guy on line- 5-7weeks email, seemed about to ask me out for coffee didnt so I came off line for 5 weeks. went back on he asked me out- went out got my number very soon (in a friendly what if I late ..smiley face). Texted each morning noon and night and calls every day, meet up once a week maybe more. No sex!! my chocie..He talked about not wanting to date forever…we should go way etc… Something felt a little off- but was hung up on him- smooth talking. Log into account after 7 weeks dating- seems he was on alot….So emailed him, said if he is contacting other girls at this stage considering the amount of calls and texts that this would be something I was uncomfortable about and maybe if he liked we could talk about it , told him to take him time if he needed. ( basically passive aggressive nice girl-why you still on line tone?)
Anyways, he blocked me , blocked his number (probably as I ddint bother to call), what apps the whole thing..haven’t heard a peep since.
So yes really pleased (I think) .seems he was just a really big player? Good luck…Yeah and this was on a Christian website even went to church (his suggestion)..Maybe I got it wrong but no you call if you care.
Happy I did it, at least some pride. Thank god for GOD. (he may have been looking out for me)
VC says
Agreed. I’m just trying to get mine out of my head. It’s hard because there is always someone bringing him up. I am trying though. I’ve even tried to stop it mid way through before my feelings got worse, obviously I failed.
karina vilchez says
without reading this article, that is exactly what i did, i went out with a guy close to 3 months, our relationship was very sexual, we rarely hang out, I didn’t know what i really wanted so kept it casual. Until it hit me and realized i wanted a committed relationship, I knew he wasn’t ready. So I texted him what this article advised. so he said , “we are going out , just wear something cute”.. well to make story short, i stopped communication with him, it was hard but it was for my own benefit. after a month he contacted me to hang out,it got canceled. two weeks later i wished him happy birthday (we never ended up in bad terms and i decided to be bigger person). he again asked me to hang out to which I accepted,i still got feeling for him but i told him straight up what i wanted, and he said he wasn’t ready before but he realized he cared about me and wanted to be exclusive, so bottom line i just met his closest friends yesterday, it was sorta like a night guys out (his 4 guy friends and me haha).. pizza,wii, and alcohol was involved, he introduced me as his girlfriend. then he left for a minute, his best friend (with 6 shots in) told me , my now boyfriend was good guy, didn’t want commitment bf, but he sees now why he chose me, my now bf put a lot of thought into it, its just hard for him to open up , his actions speaks louder than words. so what starts casual doesn’t always end that way , you just need him to make his decision and you need to be ready for both outcomes, my mindset no expectations no disappointments.
Miss t says
Thank you Evan for this short, sweet and simple blog. Recently I met online a guy who atbthe beginning said very clearly that he is looking for a serious relationship. It took me a while to process the idea, because I was in a “having several lovers at the same time” mood, but my gut feeling was telling me there might be something more. So before even giving him my phone number I took one week to reflect to decide if this is something I want or not.
We continued to chat via SMS, exchanged few photos and eventually we talked on the phone. He sounded sincere and kind so we arranged to meet. From the start we have met I felt at ease, no pressure, no second guessing just being myself and he said in our first date that he is who he is and is not interested playing games. Everything went smooth, sex was fabulous we were in contact every day and he was the first person I would talk to in the morning and the last one before going to bed.
I was high on oxytocin, believe me… Lol till one day when suddenly the communication became different. He stopped talking about himself. He wouldn’t talk about things we could do together, like goign skiing etc. and I let him be. I was aware of the shift in his behavior and I decided to give him space. We were planning to spend our first whole day together (having fun and sex) and the evening before when I texted him when do we see each other, he answered he doesnt kmow. I knew it then and there that this it, but the experience so far was so good and so sweet I decided to turn a blind eye and wait. No remarks, no comments, just let him be. I only wrote that maybe it would be a good time to share each others expectations so there wouldn’t be any misunderstanding. His answer:” yes, but not over the phone we should do this face to face.”
I think you can figure out the rest of the story. He never stepped up and said what he wanted. So I told him like Evan wrote, sweet and short goodbye. He wanted an explanation, we talked on the phone, he reassured me he was not pulling away it was his crazy work schedule yet he was not willing to say when he will have time to see each other. I let him be, he came back when I told him it is a no go for me and still he wouldn’t say what’s happening. I swear T one point I was sure he is secretly married. Lol
One momth later and he posted a photo of him and a woman on his profile. He looks happy and she looks she could be his mother- at least 15-20 years older. So the cat is out of the bag. He likes much older women, and he has a mum issue. And my guts tell me it is his ex.
Moral of the story- if a guy talks tor you about his ex on your first date, grab your handbag and gracefully exit the crime scene. If he is not capable being with you on your first date, he is still hang up and stuck in another story.
Long live oxytocin, now I know I want more of it.
Esther says
But why would any woman sleep with a guy on the third date? I, personally, would only have sex with someone I’m in a committed relationship with, and I can’t see, for the life of me, what this urgency is for women to have sex the moment they feel a connection. Why not decide on exclusivity first, and then think about sex?
Noemi says
Because sex is…just sex. It’s fun, it feels great, and sometimes you’re feeling hot and you want it. Some people can do it, others aren’t up to it 🙂
Ann says
Aha! I needed to hear this! What a perfect way to start out the new year by viewing this blog. The story above is pretty much what I have been going through. I have been checking my phone for a text or call from a guy who sporadically tells me he’s thinking of me to keep me around. I fall every single time because of the “chemistry”. This has been going on for 6 weeks, 6 weeks of hell. I’m over the games of “I like you and want to date you but just got out of a relationship so I need space”. So I give the space… then I get the “Thank you for the space but I just got out of a relationship and want to continue to see you but also see other women”. 0_o Ummm. Ok? I told him I was ok with that, which I wasn’t. He was being honest, brutally honest which I appreciate, but damn. It might be too soon for him to be in a relationship but if you date around and meet someone they are going to want that too. I think I just need to except the fact that he does not want a relationship with me; rejection hurts. But time heals, and everything will be ok.
jojo1 says
Mark,
I hear often from women when it comes to having sex with a man ” you have to take a risk” on this day and age ( and all others ) that risk can mean pregnancy and STD’s.
If a man is going to be serious with you should he not court her and intentionally be doing things to warrant this level of risk ?
I don’t like playing Russian roulette with my heart or body
Anne says
I did that a couple years ago, met a guy a bit younger than me (9 years to be exact), I’m in my 50’s he’s in his 40’s, he’s never been married and has no kids, I divorced after 25 years of marriage and had 2 grown kids.
We started as “friends”, going to the movies and a drink afterwards until night he kissed me. He immediately after invited me to his house for dinner and to watch the playoffs. He kept trying to push himself on me all the while. We evnetually had sex about 5 weeks after we started dating, first time we had sex it was awful, the bed broke, I was dry, he wouldn’t give up… disaster. HE came over the next day and tried to make up for it, did my snow, the sex was okay
It’s now been two years and I am afraid I am just sex-zoned. He only contacts me once every couple of weeks when he is bored, he seems to enjoy our time together, listening me to ramble on about things, he knows a lot of personal things about me and the trials and tribulations I have suffered. He barely says anything about himself really, doesn’t talk about anything new going on in his life unless I ask, almost like pulling teeth.
Haven’t heard back from him going on 2 weeks again, this time when he texts if I want to meet for dinner or happy hour, and he will, I was thinking about giving him a speech, but instead, I think I’m just going to ignore. It will be hard as I do get lonely, but I can see it will never go any further than what it is.
Jessie says
The fact is, our instinct tells us that he is not, but we tense to fool ourselves by hoping that he is.
When you know he is not the one, just let go, no point holding on something that is not real.
Joy says
I always read your advices & it is helpful for me to understand men. Thankful you are there 🙂 keep it up Evan
Schvounder says
I took Kevin’s advice and used his speech in an email because my dealer refuse to see me. A year later in a relationship with an awesome man. The speech was liberating because it was everything that I had wanted to say but I couldn’t think of it. Thank you Evan for this blog it has been a lifesaver for me.
Sophia says
Sounds like you wrote it just for me. Thanks Evan. Always love your stuffs. Very helpful 😘
Jenny says
just because a man calls you all the time, wants to see you often and is excited about you doesn’t mean the relationship will lead to marriage. I know women who dated men like that and the relationships still had problems and eventually they broke up.
Zoe says
so true. If they want you
they call text and set up plans
no doubts
my new guy shut down his profile stat !!
done
wants one on one
Jane says
Men that want “fun and sex” should do it with themselves! Or pay a prostitute NOT use women. Hurt them and dump them.
R says
I think I’m done with online. 3 different guys I’ve dated within 4 years and they each talked a “I want to be serious game”. But they all ended up sneaking back online.