Are Women Good, and Men Bad?

Are Women Good, and Men Bad?

According to author Suzanne Venker, “the so-called rise of women has not threatened men. It has pissed them off… Men want to love women, not compete with them. They want to provide for and protect their families – it’s in their DNA. But modern women won’t let them.”

When Venker asks men why they don’t want to get married, men say the same thing over and over:

“Women aren’t women anymore.”

Venker’s article on Fox News, and her new book, “How to Choose a Husband (and Make Peace with Marriage)” are decidedly controversial. I think Venker knows this and plays up her message, shifting the the blame for all relationship problems from men to women. This, I think, is a mistake. One gender is not to blame for all ills. Not men. Not women.

I wrote to Venker and asked her to send a copy of her book, so if I think it has any merit, I can share it with my readers. Without having read it, I can only respond to what she wrote in this one article.

If you date men, then, predictably, MEN are going to be the problem.

And while I don’t agree with her hyperbolic language about women “surrendering to their femininity,” which really does sound like some sort of flashback to the 1950’s, I do think there she has a point about women sharing responsibility for their relationship failings.

I go to great pains on this blog to establish the same concept, and receive a good amount of pushback for it. As Venker wrote, “After decades of browbeating the American male, men are tired. Tired of being told there’s something fundamentally wrong with them. Tired of being told that if women aren’t happy, it’s men’s fault.”

This is, by and large, true. Just as women should rightfully be outraged that Venker “blames” women and feminism for today’s relationship woes, men are outraged that we are always perceived as the problem. It’s all a matter of perspective.

If you date men, then, predictably, MEN are going to be the problem.

But if you date women (like men do), you may logically conclude that women are, at least part of the problem. After all, women are the ones who have changed more dramatically in the past 40 years. In gaining equality, they’ve embraced many male characteristics, blurred gender roles, and muddied the waters when it comes to work, money, responsibility, leadership, etc. This isn’t a bad thing and I’m not trying to go backwards or put the genie back in the bottle.

However, as a result of these changes, women are dissatisfied with men, men are dissatisfied with women, and both tend to play the blame game.

That doesn’t fly here. Look in the mirror, figure out who you are, figure out what you need, and you can find a complementary life partner, instead of blaming the opposite sex. What does that mean for my smart, strong, successful women? Well, it probably means that you should get used to equality. You will now have the same dating dilemmas as men.

If you’re an alpha female, better get used to the idea that certain men don’t find you attractive. Better get used to the idea that you may have to be the primary breadwinner. Better get used to the idea that the best fit for you is a more easygoing man, instead of the most “impressive” man.

In short, by becoming equal to men, women had better be willing to “date down” with someone who is less driven, educated, wealthy or ambitious.

Alas, we men have never called it “dating down”. We just called it dating.

And we liked being able to choose partners based on kindness, fun, laughter, attraction, values and compatibility.

I hope women learn to value men for the same reasons, instead of height, education, and income. Because whether you agree with Suzanne Venker or not, you have to admit, changing gender roles make relationships more confusing than ever before.

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  1. 121

    Re 125/6
    Asking a man out is really not that big a deal.  Women give birth and can,t handle the “rejection” of a man saying no?  As for online, the man wouldn’t know you if he passed you in the street.  How can he reject you? Mind you, he said yes. If he.d said no I may be singing a different tune. I hope not, I find these days I,m quite Teflon coated.
    we no longer, thankfully, have the double standard that a woman has to be a virgin, or near enough, when she marries, while a man is expected to have had experience. I,m up on that deal.
    I get karmic,s point that being rejected before or after sex are different animals entirely.
    Re high value men, yep that tall, higher earning, committed, reliable yet exciting, good looking man, with off the charts chemistry and total faithfulness is hard to find. BECAUSE HE DOESN.T EXIST. And if he does he’s dating rosie huntingdon whitely…. I just googled him. He,s losing his hair so even  her boyfriend wouldn’t be good enough for some of us.

  2. 122
    Karmic Equation

    @Karl R 126

    I really didn’t want to continue our point-by-point…but ok. Here we go!

    “If I get a $3,000 bonus at work, that’s a benefit to me. The amount of benefit I receive from a $3,000 bonus remains unchanged even if my coworker gets a $1,000 or $3,000 or $5,000 bonus (or no bonus at all).”

    So do you tell your coworkers what your bonus was? If yes, ok, then it doesn’t matter. But if not, why not? Because it’s not ok for you to make more than they, if you’re all doing the same work. So for true equality, they should get the same bonus or you should get less.

    “I’d call this a failure to find alternate solutions. In my household, with our combined incomes, we can easily afford to hire a maid. (No kids, so that doesn’t apply to us.) Not only do we have more money as a couple, but we can spend less time on housework than when we were both single.”

    Good solution. However, did you or your wife set up the screening of the housekeeping staff? Who made sure they got a key? Who called the references? Who checks around the house after they’re gone to make sure nothing is missing? Who calls when something wasn’t done right? Who calls for special cleaning days prior to parties, etc?

    We’re not talking about expenses, but the grunt work to either do the work or arrange the work.

    “Or to put it in terms of a karmic equation, that’s like claiming that you murdered someone, but you also helped an old lady across the street … so everything’s even.”

    Are you really equating marriage with murder? And sexual liberation with crossing the street? Or are you equating sexual liberation with murder and marriage with crossing the street? Either way, it’s not *my* math that’s bad.

    “You’re completely ignoring the benefit that comes with asking people out. You have the opportunity to seize the initiative. You’re not stuck passively waiting for something to happen. You’re out making something happen. If women also start asking men out, they will face rejection. But they’ll avoid being stuck in a passive role. It’s not an equal trade.”

    I think this is really the crux of our disagreement. A man’s power is to hunt; a woman’s power is to reap. As a woman, my job is to filter (sift) out men who are not good mates, not to hunt for him. And women should be gathering as many men to choose from as they can, so that she can *most efficiently* find the right one (i.e., circular dating a la Rori Raye). I have two easy filters to decide if a man is worth my time:

    1) Does a man like me enough to approach?
    2) Is he BRAVE/confident enough to approach?

    If a man doesn’t pass through both these two easy filters at the minimum, I don’t want him (and he doesn’t want me)…so why should I waste time on that man? We’re not suited.

    If I were to approach a man, I don’t obtain those two pieces of information. I’d be flying blind. Who in their right mind does that?

    “You’re not stuck passively waiting for something to happen.”

    In another thread you correctly changed the term “passive” to “reactive.” I completely agree with the term reactive. Being a woman you have to REACT astutely to a man you are interested in to ensure something more happens. When I’m looking my best, ensuring that I’m approachable, radiating all my goddessness (this term makes me laugh, it’s so OTT, but the message is clearer. Goddesses collect worshippers, she doesn’t hunt for them), I’m far from “passive” — I’m not even sure the word “reactive” is the right word as I’m actively and semi-consciously emitting good energies. When I’m doing all that radiating, the right men, as well as the wrong men, approach. Then I use other criteria to filter out the wrong men. And “wrong” is situational. A good man approaching me is the wrong man, if I’m not emotionally available. A “bad” man approaching me could be the right man if I’m only looking for a fling.

  3. 123

    Karmic 128 said:
    1) Does a man like me enough to approach?
    2) Is he BRAVE/confident enough to approach?
    The problem with that is that it can lead to this rather vicious cycle:
    A) Many women claim to want confident men when it comes to dating;
    B) These same women get their rocks off destroying a guy’s confidence at every turn; then
    C) They complain that they cant find any confident men.
    Ironic, isn’t it???

  4. 124

    You also mentioned that a man’s power is as a hunter. What if he’s an accountant instead?

  5. 125
    Karl R

    Karmic Equation said: (#128)
    “it’s not ok for you to make more than they, if you’re all doing the same work. So for true equality, they should get the same bonus or you should get less.”
    If we’re all doing the same work, why is it true equality if I get less bonus?
    You don’t seem to comprehend the meaning of the word equality.
    Assuming I’ve done the same work as my coworker, under which circumstances is it true equality for me to get the same bonus as my coworker, and under which circumstances is it true equality for me to get less bonus than my coworker?
    What if I did more work? Is it equality if I do more work and my coworkers receive the same bonus as I do? Or should I receive a larger bonus if I do more work?
    Karmic Equation said: (#128)
    “A man’s power is to hunt; a woman’s power is to reap.”
    So you’re opposed to men and women doing the same work. Therefore, if equality is going to be considered, we should each receive a benefit comparable to our work.
    I find it interesting that you chose the words “hunt” and “reap”.
    1. to gather or take (a crop, harvest, etc.).
    2. to get as a return, recompense, or result: to reap large profits.
    According to Karmic Equation, the woman’s power is to gain a benefit without putting in an effort. (Sowing and tending are the verbs which describe putting in an effort. Reaping is the verb used to describe gaining the benefit of your own … or someone else’s … sowing and tending.)
    1. to search for; seek; endeavor to obtain or find.
    According to Karmic Equation, the man’s power is to expend effort without necessarily recognizing a benefit for those efforts.
    Again, you don’t seem to comprehend the meaning of the word equality … but it makes more sense why you’re opposed to altering this system.
    Karmic Equation said: (#128)
    “And women should be gathering as many men to choose from as they can, so that she can *most efficiently* find the right one (i.e., circular dating a la Rori Raye).”
    I can see how it’s more efficient for you to have a dozen men pursuing you whom you can choose from. However, it seems considerably less efficient for the dozen men who are pursuing you.
    Your interest in equality seems to disappear any time you’re discussing a situation where you believe women have an advantage.
    Yet again, you don’t seem to comprehend the meaning of the word equality.
    Karmic Equation asked: (#128)
    “1) Does a man like me enough to approach?
    2) Is he BRAVE/confident enough to approach?
    If I were to approach a man, I don’t obtain those two pieces of information. I’d be flying blind. Who in their right mind does that?”
    Every man who approaches you goes in flying blind without those two pieces of information.
    Is it your contention that men aren’t in their right mind? Or do you think that men should be the only ones to take the risk of flying blind?
    Shall we say it in unison? You don’t seem to comprehend the meaning of the word equality.
    Karmic Equation said: (#128)
    “it’s not *my* math that’s bad.”
    Um … you seem to be having some difficulty grasping the fundamental concept of “equal.”
    Karmic Equation said: (#128)
    “In another thread you correctly changed the term ‘passive’ to ‘reactive.'”
    I was referring to the concept of mirroring. If you’re sitting around passively waiting for someone to approach, what are your reacting to?
    Karmic Equation said: (#128)
    “I’m far from ‘passive’ — I’m not even sure the word ‘reactive’ is the right word as I’m actively and semi-consciously emitting good energies.”
    Yeah. Right. That sounds … um … active.
    Do me a favor. Look up the definition of “active.”
    Karmic Equation said: (#128)
    “I’m looking my best, ensuring that I’m approachable, radiating all my goddessness”
    “Goddesses collect worshippers,”
    You are truly batting .000 with this concept of equality.

  6. 126

    Oh Karl R.  I was going to write my own rejoinder, but then read yours and laughed and laughed. 😀
    The only thing I have to add is that plenty of goddesses across cultures worldwide are hunters.  Look up Artemis/Diana.  Or Kali.  Or Durga.  Or the wonderful Ur-goddess Ishtar, from whom the more milk-soppish Aphrodite was derived.  I’d rather be this type of goddess anyday, than some poor fool stuck in an altar collecting worshippers.

  7. 127
    Karmic Equation

    @Karl R

    I enjoy being a woman. You enjoy being a man. In none of my posts have I “treated you like an incompetent woman” (I think Evan quoted this from a book, Men are from Mars/Women are from Venus?) — Yet you continue to talk to me like an incompetent man. I resent that. I don’t want to be a man. I want to be a woman. I don’t NEED to hunt for dates, dates find me. So stop telling me I’m missing out. I’m not.

    If my objective is to get dates, and men approach me to ask me for them, I got what I wanted: dates. And I didn’t have to do anything DIRECTLY. I got them INDIRECTLY by being feminine and attractive (from, attract, v. – “to draw by appealing to the emotions or senses, by stimulating interest, or by exciting admiration; allure; invite: to attract attention; to attract admirers by one’s charm.”) — And yes, Karl R, being attractive in this sense is very, very ACTIVE but indirect, something as a man you are not a fan of. GREAT! I love that men love being direct. There’s something sexy about a man’s directness. As shown in the Bizarro-world video, a woman’s directness may not be so sexy.

    Equality is not women becoming more like men; and equality is not men becoming more like women — a la Bizarro-world video — Equality is giving both the masculine and feminine powers equal value, and celebrating both, without saying the other side has to give something up or give something more or whatever they have is not worth having. In this case, if I want to put my energies into being attractive prey, I’m just as active as you are at seeking prey. Your way is direct. My way is indirect. Why is your way right and my way wrong?


    And Helen you naturally exhibited indirectness — you slung an insult at me without mentioning me at all. Indirectness is one of the feminine powers. You wield it well. You got your point across without getting your hands dirty directly. That came naturally, right? You do know men are not good at indirectness (unless flirting), don’t you? Now extend that indirectness to dating and life. Men don’t understand the power of indirectness and they’re telling us to get rid of it, (Karmic, you’re not taking life by the horns if you don’t ASK men for a date, yada yada; you’re losing out, Karmic, if you don’t ask men out; or it’s no big deal to ask men out, why be wallflower). I hear the pro-action pep talk, but there is also the hidden message that men just want to shirk another responsibility and foist that onto women as well, in the name of “equality.”

    I’m not sitting around doing nothing but collecting worshippers. Worshippers fall at my feet wherever I go. I karaoke, I get dates. I shoot pool I get dates. I go drink with friends at bars, I get dates. And my objective at those places is NOT to get dates but to enjoy my life, to socialize, or build skills I can have fun with and be proud of. I love animals so I wouldn’t dream of hunting any of them. So while the idea of hunting sounds oh so powerful, the actual fact of hunting is not so fun. No offense to those hunting goddesses. To hunt men as a woman, you don’t ask them out. That’s like shooting fish in a barrel. To hunt men when you’re a woman you have to become irresistable prey. You bait the trap with yourself. It is fun, empowering, and motivating. No animals get hurt. what is wrong with that?


    I’ve never needed to ask men out (although I did proposition a man once when I was angry/jealous about a beau). Men I find attractive end up asking me out. I don’t know when or how it happened, but I don’t find men who don’t me attractive attractive. If I scan a room and see a good looking guy, and he doesn’t approach at some point, at some point he becomes less attractive. At the same time an average-looking man who does approach becomes more attractive. Guess it doesn’t work that way for most women.

  8. 128
    Karmic Equation

    Sorry for the double post. Forgot to respond to Mickey.

    @Mickey 129

    Yes. It is ironic. Believe me, those aren’t the women who’ll make you happy.

    I’m not one of those. I always talk to men who approach me. But they’ll know by the end of the conversation whether or not I’m interested. Usually it’s no, and they know that without ever having to ask directly, so they actually don’t hear any outright rejection from me.

    I’ve caught a man’s eye as he’s approaching and with body language told him not to bother. Maybe a barely noticeable shake of my head. They weren’t offended by that. It saved them time.

    @Mickey 130

    Hmmm…Probably not for me then? LOL. I think men are at their best when they’re hunting. Now whether they’re at their most honest? Probably not. The fun is in figuring them out.

  9. 129
    Karl R

    Karmic Equation said: (#133)
    “Equality is giving both the masculine and feminine powers equal value, and celebrating both,”
    “Your way is direct. My way is indirect. Why is your way right and my way wrong?”
    Why is my way the “masculine” way? Why is your way the “feminine” way?
    Why is your way wrong for men? Why is my way wrong for women?
    Karmic Equation said: (#133)
    “I don’t NEED to hunt for dates, dates find me.”
    Dates find the man who is a lead singer in a rock band. He doesn’t need to hunt for dates. He has a penis. Why do you label his way as the feminine way?
    How does this situation (which already exists in the real world) create a “Bizarro-world” situation? Why is his way wrong?
    Karmic Equation said: (#133)
    “I hear the pro-action pep talk, but there is also the hidden message that men just want to shirk another responsibility”
    As a kid, my mother continually told me, “With freedom comes responsibility.” If I wanted to move out of the house and get freedom from the family rules, I had to accept the responsibility of supporting myself. (I happily made that trade-off.)
    Are you saying that my parents were shirking their responsibility for supporting me?
    I had the freedom to choose where I lived. Do you think my parents had the responsibility for paying my rent? (If they had, I would have chosen to live in a much nicer apartment.)
    By the way, do you believe men have the “responsibility” to approach you? They don’t. They have the option to approach. They sometimes choose to exercise that option.
    Why do you believe that it’s their responsibility to approach you (or any other woman)? Isn’t the success of your own dating efforts your own responsibility?
    Karmic Equation said: (#133)
    “Yet you continue to talk to me like an incompetent man. I resent that.”
    I’m not talking to you like an incompetent man. I’m talking to you like you’re an incompetent debater.
    If you resent it, step up your game.
    And if you offer the slightest suggestion that debate is somehow a masculine endeavor, I’m going to encourage Helen, A-L, Selena, Honey, Starthrower68 and Sayanta to tear you as many new ones as required to disabuse you of that notion.
    Karmic Equation said: (#133)
    being attractive in this sense is very, very ACTIVE but indirect,”
    You stopped using one sentence too soon.
    Karmic Equation said: (#133)
    “To hunt men when you’re a woman you have to become irresistable prey. You bait the trap with yourself. […] No animals get hurt.”
    You know that you find rejection scary (#101). You know that you get hurt when you’re rejected (#125). You know that you’re trying to attract as many men as possible (#128), which means you’ll end up rejecting most of them. You have become aware that many men eventually learn to deal with rejection through repeated exposure (#101 & 133), though some don’t.
    You can’t even convince yourself that nobody gets hurt.
    Save us some time. Don’t bother trying to convince me with arguments that you don’t believe. You’re having a hard enough time when you’re using arguments that I don’t believe.
    And if you think traps don’t hurt animals (literal animals, not figurative animals), test out a rat trap with your finger. Use whichever finger you find least useful. (You’ll thank me for that last piece of advice.)
    Karmic Equation said: (#133)
    “Indirectness is one of the feminine powers.”
    “Men don’t understand the power of indirectness and they’re telling us to get rid of it,”
    I invite you to explain to Karmic Equation what I’ve been doing indirectly during this debate.

  10. 130

    Karl R: I would, but I’m being indirect. That’s one of my feminine powers. Remember? 😉
    No, really, I would, but it is NOT my intention to insult Karmic or to make her feel bad.  If I laugh at your comments, it’s because I find them clever and funny, not as an indirect insult to her. 
    Instead I’ll speak directly to Karmic. If what you say is true, that you, too, get flocks of men attracted to you, then I’ll posit that there are at least two ways to achieve that. One is a proactive way. Another is, frankly, not a proactive way. So clearly it is not proactiveness or lack thereof that determines attractiveness. I would posit that it is happiness with oneself.
    For that reason, I would encourage women to do and to find the things that make them happy rather than to follow “The Rules” or be untrue to themselves. Without intending it, they will then attract enormously – both men and women, both would-be-lovers and friends.

  11. 131

    Karmic, I’m coming in to support you.  I know exactly what you’re saying.  Men and women are built to court in person, so we’re going to take on line out of it because it’s backwards in the courtship process.  When out and about in the real world, women ALWAYS make the first move.  They smile and hold eye contact, if he’s interested, he approaches.  She lets him know she’s interested primarily with submission signals, playing with her hair, tilting her head, smiling, holding eye contact, etc. 
    I also agree with your hunter/reap definition, masculinity is about doing/aggressive, femininity is about feeling/receiving.  If a woman wants to take the male role, she’s does that at a bigger risk as she’ll never really know his attraction factor.  Sure, are there exceptions where is works out perfectly when she pursues (although there are some men who have a predominance of feminine energy and vice versa, nothing wrong with that, just not the norm), yes…like Evan says though, that doesn’t disprove the rule. 

    For the original argument, women have benefited from birth control/femininism by not having to marry just to survive, however, she also is in her masculine energy much more and with a house and kids, jobs & careers rarely gets to build her feminine energy–that leads to much unahppiness and stress for her.  She also cannot often cannot do what comes naturally, focus on taking care of her children.  Men benefited because now they get to enjoy their children and contribute more to their upbringing, but also they have access to more ‘free’ sex without responsibility than ever. 

    It’s not a perfect world!  Bottom line though is that reptilian brain, human instincts have been around for millions of years, and I don’t think they are going away any time soon–and neither do they change (even with technology!).  What does change is the mammalian and higher brains through societial influences and general maturing.

    Men and women are equal, and different.

  12. 132

    This one is such a toughie for me.  I’m still working through some early emotional bruises; the “inner child of the past” learned that she had to earn someone’s love therefore always had to be “doing” to keep it.  Because I was rejected at an early age, I haven’t learned yet how to take it well.  I mean, there have been instances that I have been ok with it because I was not interested in someone.  But the 3 or 4 times that I was really interested in someone, it touched those unresolved hurts.  I am and have been in therapy for it, and still wonder if I’ll ever overcome it.

  13. 133

    I agree with Helen, be true to yourself.  What I did do was exercise my judgement. I  will now only date a fellow Christian. The chances of meeting one in a bar is very small. I met my boyfriend at church. most men who grew up in church aren’t slick at hunting women.  Therefore, I had to be more proactive.
    after months of friendship I kicked it up and suggested we go out.   I was fully prepared to walk away with my head held high had he said no, or said yes out of politeness. true, I was happy with myself.  We went to a restaurant in the city and walked hand in hand along  the river.
    He,s confident, knows his  own mind, is unshakeable on his beliefs, manly, protective, likes to provide for me, loyal, competitive and physically fit.  It,s kinda laughable to me to suggest that I have the manly role.   I do know his attraction factor, he,s very attracted to me. It,s true he didn,t go into hot pursuit but revealed it slowly over weeks of dating. I find that a more reliable indicator than someone who,s all over me immediately.  that has failed me upteen times in the past.  I,ve learned not to trust that anymore. What does it prove that a man finds me sexually attractive within minutes?
     i,m glad i didn,t pass him up because of any Rules. If I had left him behind for someone more aggressive i could still be batting my eyelids and tossing my hair to no avail. and getting a lot of funny looks in church. 
    i get that my situation is somewhat unique but if the traditional roles have broken down take advantage of it! You really can be as unique as you want and still meet someone. Provided you make some effort. Present youself well and leave the house at least. That hasn,t changed.

  14. 134
    Karmic Equation

    @Michelle 137

    Thank you! Your support is much appreciated. I was feeling a little lonely with my beliefs.

    What you said is exactly what I meant, plus you added a few more topics that I hadn’t considered, but certainly germane to my original point. Thank you.

    @Helen 136

    Thank you. I’ve appreciated both your directness and indirectness.

    I absolutely agree with you that “happiness with oneself” is what is attractive and to be true to oneself and not follow “The Rules.”

    Proactiveness or or Receptiveness are just two different ways to obtain the same objective: dates/mates.

    Just to be clear, I can be and have been proactive with men 🙂 I’m proactive when I’m interested in sex and not relationships. I’ve approached men (admittedly only two of them in the last 18 years) whom I was attracted to and asked for sex – indirectly, of course, “You wanna get outta here?”

    However, if it’s not simply sex I’m interested in, I let the guy approach. What this means is that if the guy I find attractive and may want a relationship with doesn’t approach me, then I get neither the sex nor the relationship. I’m fine with that. But I feel I’m alone in thinking that asking a guy out diminishes rather enhances the potential of a relationship with said guy, particularly if he’s the alpha type. Of course a relationship CAN happen IN SPITE OF the proactiveness, but I feel that a happy relationship resulting from asking a guy out is IN SPITE OF the flip-flopping of the hunter/prey roles not BECAUSE OF it ( It *DOES* work for the beta or shy guys ( But in this blog, most women aren’t interested in the beta/shy guys.


    I’m sorry to hear about how your past has harmed your present. Therapy will help, but may take a while. Be patient, but be proactive about changing your mindset.

    It’s never easy to get over rejection ( You will always be hurt if you get rejected, you wouldn’t be human if you weren’t. But rejection DOES build character. The important thing is to not give up and LEARN from the rejection. Did you pick the wrong kind of guy for you? If he was a jerk, were there warning signs you turned a blind eye to? Were you too needy? Too aloof? Figure out what YOU can do differently with the next guy. Have a plan. Maybe it’s as simple as picking a different type of guy. But change/adapt behaviors and mindsets YOU can control yourself. Don’t take it personally, but take it as a learning experience and make sure you APPLY what you learned from the rejection into your next relationship.

  15. 135

    @ Karmic, thank you.  Your points are well taken.  I maintain that men and women are good and bad from the standpoint that humans are neither all of one or the other.  We live in a  an age where egalitarianism is valued above all else, even to our detriment.  We are not teaching our boys to be men and we’re teaching our girls males are not necessary and gender lines are being increasingly blurred.  Our culture has become a huge social engineering project which has ill effects on society.  Men and women have *always* been equal in terms of value, but different in terms of what we bring to the table.  There is a reason God created two genders.

  16. 136

    the pay issue is also dependent on what the market pays for it. for example, admin jobs have a certain pay scale which is 20-36k. That’s not going to change much. Someone in sales may make more and get commission. HR or CEOs do not have the say, they look at what the industry standard is. here’s one site for reference
    As a feminist, I must say I love men and I love getting dick. I am not angry. Yes I’ve experienced anger towards men but it doesn’t last forever. Men have their pros and cons just like women. I object to any media person telling me how I feel. I decide how I feel and I don’t need anyone making assumptions that I am angry towards men.

  17. 137

    I just love this balanced approach to solving the gender role issues. Marc makes complete sense. Love this!!

  18. 138

    Wo, how did the conversation veer so far off topic? Wasn’t the original question “Are women good and men bad?” The answer is obvious: No. Some women and some men are good, and some women and some men are bad. The point for dating is not to generalize about the whole opposite sex, especially not a negative generalization, and to evaluate every person you meet as right or not for you. Someone else’s good may be your bad, and vice versa.
    Suzanne Venker’s quote doesn’t make sense. The rise of woman happened over time, and generally the men who are affected are the younger ones, not the older ones. Younger men and boyds grow up already seeing that younger women and girls are smart, competent and powerful, so they take it for granted. It doesn’t piss them off, they see it as the natural way of things. I can see a case that older men might be pissed off if a younger woman becomes his boss, because they’re not used to that, but most of the time that has nothing to do with dating anyway.

  19. 139

    You need to put dates in your site 

  20. 140

    Like so many of these pro-feminism posts, everyone treats what men want as somehow bad. You really think humanity survived all those centuries in patriarchy if it was inherently bad?? You really think all those would have accepted that lifestyle if they didn’t see the benefits?? What is wrong with cooperating with a man, ladies? What is wrong with him take the wheel, once in a while? Are you that terrified of what he’ll  do with that power? Well, we’re terrified with what you’ll do with that power. Women can be so much more sensitive to certain things – like emotional outbursts brought on by stress than a man. It’s now considered abusive toward women but it’s laughed about when it happens to a man. Men are far less likely to throw women out of the house if they suddenly lose their jobs – which is a possibility, don’t kid yourselves than if a man loses his job, forcing her to pick up the slack.  These differences make it very hard to trust the stability in a relationship with a woman. These differences also make it hard to trust the love woman has for us. It takes love to accept a person for their flaws. And women ask that of their men all the time. That respect isn’t mutual.  And then, a modern woman might not want to deal with any of these  issues because the “drama” involved. It takes too much work. That’s what modern liberated women look like. They’re too lazy and self-absorbed to care what their men want or need. And we can’t find any value in a relationship when we don’t matter at all. Seems sensible enough.

    1. 140.1

      Luke: I will add when you have too many women with the attitude that men just aren’t worth a damn, then trying to meet the so-called “fair sex” is 100 percent risk and zero percent reward.

  21. 141

    Well nowadays it is more like most women are very bad and many of us men are really good especially since most single women like sleeping around with so many different kinds of men every single chance that they get since they can never be committed to just only one man. There are many of us men that had our ex wives cheat on us already even though we were the very faithful ones in our marriage which it still wasn’t good enough for those losers that we were married to at one time.  Very lucky that i never had children even though i really did at one time.  And i know friends that had this happened to them which they were very good husbands as well and they did have children too.

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