Why Men Routinely Hit on Women Who Are Not Interested


I’m always wary about sharing articles and videos, lest you think that my sharing it is a 100% endorsement of the ideas within them.

When I share something, there’s always a seed of an idea worth discussing. Which brings me to today’s video  courtesy of New York Magazine, on a concept known as sexual misperception.

The point is that people shouldn’t take anything in dating too personally.

This is the very observable phenomenon in which men overestimate women’s interest in them. 90% of women have experienced a man who mistakes basic politeness for sexual signals. Yet studies show that this isn’t just a result of American frat-boy culture. In fact, people all over the world deal with the exact same misperception.

Like most things we discuss here on this blog, I find it more important to observe it and understand it than to judge it. As a woman, you may not like every guy who hits on you, but that doesn’t mean you should stop being polite. As a man, you may overestimate how many women are open to your advances, but that doesn’t mean you should be afraid to make a first move. The point is that people shouldn’t take anything in dating too personally. Don’t take it personally that a guy asks you out when you were just being nice. Don’t take it personally when she rejects you for asking her out.

Your comments, below, are always appreciated.

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  1. 1

    Interestingly enough, unattractive men tend to be the bravest in this regard.   The hot or attractive men tend to be more subtle.lol I think the higher you perceive your value to be (as a man), the more you might not want to risk rejection.   But hey, that’s my personal philosophy.

    Frankly, it doesn’t bother me.   What is challenging though is  still sounding polite when turning men down. That is the height of awkwardness for me.

    1. 1.1

      That’s interesting–I always thought the most attractive men might just be more picky about who they approach, since they would presumably have more options available (but then again, what do I know, it’s not like I routinely get hit on by hot men so I wouldn’t know what they’re thinking!)

      1. 1.1.1

        I don’t know why they do it, but I can tell you that it can ruin the chances for a guy who would actually have a chance with that woman. I have met so many really attractive girls on match who get bombarded by e-mails from unattractive guys as soon as they post a profile. In many cases, they just end up hiding their profile, and giving up after reading the 300th douchy e-mail.. In that case, I am either very lucky that they saw my e-mail before they hid the profile and we meet, or am completely screwed because my e-mail is buried behind 400 douchy, creepy, or rude e-mails in front of mine. The bottom line is that guys can really ruin things for their fellow dude.

        1. Lisa

          You are spot on.   When I did some of the dating sites I got bombarded.   There were so many emails I could not possibly get through them all.    Part of the problem was that at least 50% of the men that emailed did not fit my basic criteria.   Meaning they were way older or younger, smoked, did not want kids, lived far away, etc. so clearly they just looked at my pictures.    Another 20% started off with sexual or inappropriate emails, 10% were married or looking to cheat so that left maybe 20% that were actually date able presuming I was not exhausted and angry by the time I reached their profiles.    I should mention that around 50% of the men send repeat emails and most of them were not nice at all with reference to why I did not respond so add those in there.   So I did not last very long on online dating and I don’t think it works for attractive women for this reason.    And yes it’s other men that ruin it for you.   I am not going to pay to be sexually harassed and berated and I can’t answer 30 or more emails a day.   I also would never email a guy whose basic criteria I failed to meet no matter how good he looked.

        2. Russell


          It would be good if the dating sites tried to find a happy middle ground.   I don’t think they should allow you to have 50 filters, because then it becomes too much checklist BS.   But maybe if they had a few options for you to choose as filters.   Maybe allow you to choose 3, or 5 things on your list that you can make an automatic filter, so that you don’t ever see the emails.   Also, they should allow a silent block for communications.   If you know you don’t want another email from the person, you block them, and they just assume you are still getting the emails.   Another option is to not allow more than one repeat email, then if you don’t get a reply, you have to wait 90 days to send another email.   It is possible for somebody to overlook an email when they get a lot of them.


          The bad thing about filters is that somebody who is perfect for you might be just outside your criteria.   For instance, maybe you have it set for 10 years older and younger, but the perfect guy for you might be 11 years older.   Just an example.   Maybe you have it set for +/- 5 years, but your perfect match is a guy who is 7 years older, and he can’t even contact you to start the ball rolling.


          Or you might insist on a degree, but he might own a contracting business, and also be a very intelligent guy.   But you will never meet him.   So I admit that the filter thing is not easy to get perfect.

        3. jack

          Its probably that the more desperate men hit on the hottest girls and just look needy and lame.   Women want the smooth PUA guys who know how to spark an interest, which is probably 25%   of the single men, sure these guys are experienced players.   But the worst thing a woman can do is pick a lame creepy guy.   I don’t blame women, its the creepy guys’ fault for not learning any seduction techniques on how to be a smooth player and romance women.   As for online dating, it can suck for women, but if she tries hard enough, she can find a decent guy.   It may take more work than she is willing to put in, and it may require filtering through a lot of creeps.

        4. Galina

          Exactly !! Oh boy, I don’t last on these sites for  more  than 10 days! That’s why Tinder rules!

        5. Been there

          ^ What he said ^

          This is the reason I closed my online accounts, the reason I’m stern and aloof when approached by men I don’t know, why I no longer give out my number, why I rarely talk to men over a certain age unless there is a good reason to (the older they get the worse they get at reading signals and the creepier they are about it), the reason I dress down and it’s the reason I’ve decided to take myself off the market.

          I get this when I go out too, I’ve been approached on public transport, at courses by fellow students, by flatmates, even a councellor I had as a teen and a few of my fathers friends. Not as in being asked out, I mean as in being sleazy. Strangers have tried to get invited back to my place under the pretence of walking me home, a friend of my sisters showed up unannounced at my home after the wedding expecting to be invited in, another I left a party because of showed up drunk and tried to kick my front door in because I wouldn’t let him in. One time at the supermarket a man even grabbed the groceries from my hands and insisted I let him carry them back to my place and we ended up in a tug of war with my bags before I told him to get lost, many have openly approached and propositioned me in the street in broad daylight, from their car or while serving me at a shop counter.

          If it’s a night out I’ll be approached before I’ve even made it to the bar, I’ve been negged, bullied, stood over, outright threatened, and even grabbed out of nowhere and dragged toward the exit by these kind if clowns, a few times someone has seen me trying to get away from some guy who has me bailed up, has come over to help and has got punched for his trouble (if you want to help the way to deal with it would be to point security in my direction and let them sort him out). I’ve had my drink drugged twice going for drinks after work, once by someone through work in a position of authority, and the second time by the very security guard my boss sent out with us to protect us. I don’t know how many times I’ve heard “if I wasn’t married you’d be in trouble”.

          I went online to screen out this rubbish but nope, online just as bad. I made the mistake of giving one online dater my number and he’s been blowing up my phone for the past 6 months after I told him to stop, he’s been trying to find out where I live, I met this man once and he’s not the first to have done it.

          You don’t get to meet decent men when you spend all your time dealing with idiots, they can’t get near you for you to meet them without some kind of bold action, like me spotting and approaching someone before anyone’s had a chance to get his hooks into me and hoping he’s one of the good guys, him outsmarting the idiots or through a friend. Problem is good men just don’t put themselves out there enough, they fold when they encounter the slightest setback, they don’t tell you they’re interested and they don’t follow up.

      2. 1.1.2

        Here is my theory on that.   Usually the very attractive men don’t hit on women because they think women should hit on them and they do.   The very unattractive men have nothing to lose so they approach whomever without hesitation .   The guys in the middle rarely cold approach as they fear rejection.   The sad part is these are the men most women want to date.

    2. 1.2

      Is it perhaps that you more remember how often *”unattractive” men hit on you vs. how often *”attractive” men do? LIke the bias that we remember “bad” experiences more vividly? Or we notice such things more?



      *Attractive/unattractive in your opinion

      1. 1.2.1

        Great question Joek

        No, I don’t think it’s a bias –   just an observation.   A ‘hot’ man will certainly flirt though. I have had that happen more times than I can count. But the ‘not so hot’ (gosh, I feel guilty even thinking this but it’s true) seem to be universally more aggressive.

        1. Dave

          Quite obviously, the not so hot are universally aggressive because they are desperate. A hot guy you see probably has many options and is most likely hooking up with a hot girl already, or can whenever he wants. Did you watch that video with the girl walking in Manhattan? There wasn’t one hot guy making any comment towards her. It was all construction workers, homeless, etc. The more desperate a man is, the more aggressive he is going to be.

    3. 1.3

      It’s because the unattractive men have nothing to lose.   The really hot guys have big egos and will approach but you don’t want them it’s the average looking guys the ones that most ladies actually,like to date that are usually too nervous to approach.

    4. 1.4

      Someone with a higher self-perception  of value wouldn’t care as much if they are rejected, so they’d risk it more often. They are confident of their value without the need of a lot of feedback. If the perception of your value is fragile, even though it might be bigger than reality – you might think you’re great – you won’t risk losing the little you have. You think you’re stronger than you are outwardly, but deep inside you know that’s not true.

      Maybe you just notice it more when unattractive men notice you because it causes you to feel like you might be less attractive than you think. Men that are very attractive may just be sensing your own lack of confidence and realize they don’t have to do much to keep your interest.

  2. 2

    They do it because they can.

    1. 2.1

      Because a door never opened is always closed to you.


      Men ask out whomever they find attractive. They won’t know if YOU find them attractive until they ask.


      If they don’t ask, they *definitely* won’t know.



      Seems pretty simple to me.

  3. 3

    I’ve seen similar stories as this.   One time I saw one about men who thought the female greeters at Walmart were flirting with them, because of how they smiled at them and greeted them at the door (when, really, they were just doing their jobs!   People will do just about anything they’re paid to do)

    I have routinely had this happen to me.   I think it might be because I usually felt more relaxed around men I wasn’t interested in, so I seemed more approachable to them.   On the other hand, I usually tended to clam up and get nervous around men I was attracted to and interested in.   Even I can’t blame those men for not approaching, for a variety of reasons (hard to feel attraction for a Nervous Nellie looking at the floor.   Or they could have mistaken my nerves as me being cold and/or uninterested in them, so more likely to reject them if they did approach).   To this day, I still cringe over how I clammed up around a really hot guy (dressed like a firefighter) I met at a Halloween party one time, who came up to talk to me.   I typically thought of men like that as being beyond my league (and there were lots of gorgeous women there, so I really didn’t expect him to approach me).   I probably wasn’t my best self.   I’m happy with my boyfriend and it’s not like I regret not getting together with that firefighter back then–but just out of basic manners and politeness, I hope I at least didn’t come off rude, because he was a nice person (seriously don’t remember what I said or did, it was a nerve-filled blur!)   I’m probably lucky my boyfriend overlooked my nerves during the first few dates and kept asking me out!   Maybe that’s why other women also get hit on by men they’re not interested in.

  4. 4

    Do   women also over-perceive men’s interest?   I’ve certainly met men who over-estimated the sexual possibilities they perceived in what I thought was a simple conversation.   But, I’ve also over-estimated men’s interest in me from (what turned out to be) simple conversation. And this blog is full of reader stories about misperceiving the amount of interest someone else is showing in them.   So is it an evolutionary cave-man thing?   Or does it, in fact, happen to everyone?

    I wonder if it’s more about confirmation  bias. When I’m interested in a man anyway, I’ll tend to over-estimate his interest in me (e.g. He smiled at me!! He asked me about my work, and said he’d like to see some examples!!!   He gently teased me!!!   He made me laugh!!! He asked me to dance several times!!!)   But, as later proved to be the case, he was being simply friendly.   I was making things mean something that they didn’t, because I was hoping they meant something.

    1. 4.1

      It’d be interesting to see some comparison of how often men vs. women do that.   I can think of times when women did that too.   In fact, I have a very good gay friend, who somehow always gets women thinking that he’s interested in them–when, in reality, he is just a friendly guy and being nice!   I also have another (heterosexual) friend who has had similar misunderstandings with women he liked, but wasn’t romantically interested in.

    2. 4.2

      I don’t know about other women but I tend to assume a man isn’t interested in me. While I’m ‘cute’ on my best days, I have a distinctive physical feature that I personally think renders me unattractive to most men. On my best days, I like this feature because it is part of what makes me, me. I use to think that having this feature would be the thing that would help me truly find the right guy. Now I just think it’s the thing that is going to keep me from having real love. So if a man is nice to me, smiles at me or has a small conversation, I don’t assume he wants to jump my bones. I’m not good at flirting but I am personable. There are women who always get hit on and since that’s not really my experience, having such an overt confirmation of attraction, I just assume they aren’t interested. Although once a man gets to know me, he usually wants to stay in a relationship with me and I’m the one that breaks it off the majority of the time. I have some pretty great qualities, but confidence in my physical appeal is not one of them. And since men primarily care about looks..well, that’s just where I’m at. Even though I’m not classically beautiful, it would be nice to be with a man that was into my brand of beauty and wouldn’t want me any other way or wouldn’t feel like he was compromising himself on my appeal while lusting after other women just because of my other good qualities.

    3. 4.3

      I make it a habit to never assume that the interest a guy levels my way is actually romantic until he makes it obvious however they all make their non platonic interests known sooner or later leading me to believe it’s not confirmation bias.

  5. 5

    With men I find that there is a massive difference between flirting and relationship and that one is usually completely unrelated to the other. Men who are more aggressive in public to me are essentially more aggressive in general, and I take that as a sign of promiscuity which is to be avoided if you are looking for a man who wants a relationship.

    1. 5.1
      Not Jerry

      Nah, don’t read anything into it. If a man flirts with you just take it as a compliment. Make your choice how to respond.

      Maybe you are in for a surprise.
      Maybe he’s nice.
      Maybe you are gonna wake up next to him for the next 30 years.

      One thing to keep in mind.   Opportunity.
      Never, never pass up a good thing.

      1. 5.1.1

        I agree Not Jerry.   If I am interested in a woman, I will be more aggressive.   She won’t have any doubts as to my interest.   If I am not overly interested in her, I will not be aggressive, which of course she totally misinterprets as me just playing it cool.   Well, yeah I am playing it cool because I’m not really that interested.   Is that really what women want?   A guy who isn’t really interested in her?   It seems so because all too often, the fastest way to kill a woman’s interest in you is by showing her that you are really into her.   Playing it cool seems to work much better at getting them interested.


        Women seem to be a mystery to men in this way.   OK, well…PUAs figured it out I suppose.   But anyway, yeah women seem to be turned off by guys who are very interested in her.   They have all kinds of negative descriptors for this, which often aren’t true.   He;s desperate, clingy, etc…   No, he just sees you as his ideal woman.   Thus, HE is the one who will never cheat on you, never leave you, never string you along for 5 years without marrying you, etc…


        But no, they seem to want the guys who are likely to treat her badly, string her along, cheat on her, etc…and he shows the signs of that from the very beginning.


        Is this because of biology, and genetics?   Is this a built in mechanism designed to encourage her to get the best genes possible for her limited amount of offspring she can produce?   This is the only thing that makes sense to me.   If a guy is overly interested in her, then her instincts kick in and tell her that this is a sign that she can do better.   If a guy is aloof, disinterested, etc…then her instincts kick in and tell her that this is possibly the target she is looking for.   He is obviously of a higher value than the other guy.   She uses herself as the measuring line.   A guy who sees her as his ideal does so because he is lesser quality, and the guy who is disinterested is so because he is higher quality.


        Even if there were a way for women to crack the code and figure out for sure which guys are PUAs and which aren’t, the truth is, she isn’t any further ahead.   The truth is, she is still trying to get the guy who is likely to make for a crap relationship.


        Let’s say that everyone has an SMV, because they do whether they like it or not.   Now also, it is realistic to say that you are very likely to end up marrying somebody with an SMV no more than +/- 1.   OK, so let’s say you are a 7.   The best you can get is an 8.   Well, are you then the best that he can get?   No.   He can get a 9, which is a whole lot higher value than a 7.   So think about how this works in a guy’s mind.   If he is a 7, and you are an 8, you are much higher value than the worst he is likely to end up with.   Which guy is more likely t be motivated to treat you better, and never cheat on you? The guy who is +1, or the guy who is -1?   Even the guy who is the same exact SMV realizes that he can do better by 1, which in a guy’s mind is still significant.


        I do know a few guys who have the philosophy to flip this script, and all of them say that this is what a smart man does.   By that I mean that instead of them shooting for the +1, they shoot for the -1, and then simply cheat on her at every opportunity.   They believe this is the best way to have their cake and eat it too.   The -1 offers him stability, less chance of divorce…unless he gets caught, of course, while the cheating allows him the possibility to have sex with women of a higher SMV.


        I personally reject that because for me, romance is far too important.   I like the idea of finding my ideal woman and falling madly in love.   Not likely to happen with the -1, and to me, cheating isn’t romantic.

        1. Tom10

          Nice analysis Russell; I came to similar conclusions a long time ago.
          Once important variable which you haven’t mentioned, however, is ‘time’ as our SMV isn’t immutably fixed for all time: our value fluctuates according to our attractiveness and the prevailing market conditions.
          Therefore, the savviest daters will have a keen sense of their own — and their target’s — potential peak, will seek to maximize their attractiveness to coincide with this peak and then “cash out” so to speak. This is what makes all those +1 and -1 combinations so interesting.
          Easier said than done though.   And not very romantic.
          Also, finding your “ideal woman and falling madly in love” is not just romantic; it also leads to (perceived) higher odds of having ideal children, if you want kids (which, to an extent, is the whole point of dating I guess).

  6. 6

    It seems to me that this “concept known as sexual misperception” is not being fully discussed, which is not helpful in my opinion.   I totally agree that we men can have that, but I would also say that for many men, they do realize that the odds are way against them, but they figure that you are never going to hit the target if you don’t fire a shot.   In their minds, it is better to try and fail, than to have had chance but never took it.   In a way it is like that dumb and dumber line where he asks what is chances are, and she says some outrageous number, and her says, “So I have a shot!”


    The problem here is that both sexes can suffer from this, or am I wrong about that Evan?   The way I see it is that both men and women can have this, but there are differences in how this is seen.   I do think there are women who pine for guys that don’t pay any real attention to them.   I’ve had friends who were certified 10’s in the looks department, though often the inner beauty was far far lower on the scale.   Anyway, more than once we would be walking around a club, or party, and women would come face to face with these guys and these girls would make it very known that they were available with just their eyes and body language.   These guys wouldn’t even look at them.   I’m talking women who are 6’s to 8’s.   The issue is that they aren’t actually making the official advances like men do.   But the concept is still the same.   The advance is there, it is just more subtle.


    But where this also manifests itself is in dating, sex, and shacking up.   I don’t even blame women for this part as much as I blame men.   What I am talking about is how men will not even hesitate to hook up with a woman that he is not the least bit interested in for a relationship.   In addition, this will not necessarily be just a one night stand.   This can turn into extended sexual affairs, short term relationships, and even shacking up for an indefinite period of time, but unknown to the woman, the one thing it won’t evolve into is marriage.   The issue is the same even with different age ranges and age differences, and that is simply that he is just getting what he wants, until he finds what he wants.

    Just one example would be a 28 year old guy shacking up with a 40 year old woman who is still hot, and has other things to offer, such as a house, and money to do things.   The benefits for him are obvious.   He isn’t ready to settle down yet, or hasn’t met the one he thinks he wants to spend the rest of his life with.   But here is this hot older woman, which means hot sex in plentiful quantity, living in a nice house, possibly rent free, or much lower cost than would be the case if he lived alone, and going out and having fun isn’t all on his shoulders financially.   By shacking up, he can have all of that until he is ready to pull the plug, either because it has become too complicated/her pushing for marriage, or he has found a woman he really wants to marry.   This arrangement is great for him because he can bail with no consequences at the drop of a dime.

    For her, the handwriting should have been on the wall many times, but was ignored because she wanted to believe she had hit the jackpot.   In her mind, this was all very real.   It had the possibility of ending up at the alter.   His version is very different, as already described.     It was never going there.

    This could also be the case with two people who are very close in age, and actually happened to my sister.   She’s a decent looking lady, but this guy she married was definitely a 10…no kidding.   They were both in the Army and stationed overseas.   Long story short, she was the last to know that he was cheating on her, repeatedly.   He also later admitted to why he married her.   She was willing to marry him, and this allowed him to move off base…to live the life.   Living in a barracks sucks, I know, I did it.   Well, at many bases, you had to be married to live off base overseas.   They ended up divorced, and she ended up marrying a great guy who while not as good looking, has impeccable character.   He’s not ugly…just more in her league, I would say, and he literally is a great guy.   They’ve been married now for around 30 years.


    Like I said, I blame guys for this as much or more than the women.   In short, he is hiding his long term intentions to get what he wants, which is not as noble as a woman simply ignoring a man she is not attracted to.   But where it is common is that if the woman would look at it realistically, she should have known that this was too good to be true.   This to me seems similar to game theory where the man came up with the economic theory by rationalizing that if he and all his friends ignored the prettiest girl that walked in, and instead all went for her not as pretty friends, they would all win, but if one of them reached for the brass ring, it always ended in failure for most if not all of them.   In other words, if she is realistic about what is going on, she doesn’t waste up to several years of her life on a relationship that never had a chance to last.


    The damage is also far more severe. What does a guy lose when a pretty girl rejects him?   Not much really.   What does the woman lose when she invests a significant portion of her life in a guy who is playing her?   A lot.   And it just seems to me that women are really really bad at figuring out when they are being played.   And in an atmosphere such as we have now where sex is free with little to no commitment, there are a whole lot of women being played.   Sad but true.

    1. 6.1

      I believe women know when they’re being played- it’s fairly obvious- they just choose to ignore it, for a variety of reasons. That’s what’s sad.


      1. 6.1.1

        I do believe that they sometimes see it afterwords, but in the moment, I think they are in denial.   Or, maybe it is like the ugly guy taking a shot at the pretty girl.   he figures that if he doesn’t take a shot, he has no chance, where if he does, he at least has a shot, even if only in his mind.   The woman may understand that it isn’t likely that it will work out, but she figures she might as well take a shot, because that is the only way to win.   You don’t win the lottery if you never buy a ticket.   The problem for her, as I said above is that she can waste a significant portion of her life reaching for the brass ring.   But this is like conservatism.   We are all responsible for our choices, and have to deal with the consequences of those decisions.   We have nobody to blame but ourselves when we reach for that brass ring and fail.

    2. 6.2


      Very thought provoking and spot on post.   I find most of what you have stated to be quite true, unfortunately!

    3. 6.3

      Very thoughtful post Russell.

      I agree that a woman loses more when she wastes YEARS of her life clinging to a disinterested guy and man just loses one evening.     But while I don’t think much of men who string women along for YEARS, it really is on the woman to be very clear with herself about her relationship goals, and act accordingly.   I have heard women cry   about how they want a meaningful relationship, marriage, etc., then some guy comes along and tells them that he’s not looking for anything serious, or otherwise puts the disclaimer out there from day one.   She suddenly turns into “the cool girl” and is just taking things “one day at a time” and doesn’t need to “label the relationship”, blah, blah, blah.   Really, all a woman is doing in cases like that is fooling herself, and becoming something she is NOT, forsaking her own needs, just to go along a with a man.   Then after a few years of this, crying about his lack of commitment which was never there and never promised to begin with.

      Yes, these women know they are being played, but they hope against hope that they will “beat the system”. It’s a losing strategy and I truly don’t get it.   I would rather be with a guy who WANTS to be with me, who pursues me, (while I enthusiastically respond to his pursuit), then to be the one who chases after a man who makes it clear that he is all about the nookie, and nothing else.

      Also, I don’t think women should be so harsh about “unattractive” men hitting on them.   We want men to “man up” and pursue us, make the plans etc.   That all starts with the approach. So if you generally want men to approach you, then expect to be approached by many men you are not interested in and try an be gentle but firm when turning them down.

      I know it’s hard to be polite while turning a man down, if you are too polite, he might take your politeness as a green light to his advances.   If he persists, well that can be annoying and I guess some men who can’t take a hint and persist and persist do need the blunt treatment, but at least start off as polite.

      Also, I really don’t consider men “attractive” or “unattractive”, merely “my type”, or “not my type”.     I see plenty of happy couples, where I would not be attracted to the male in the couple with a woman who is all starry eyed and fawning all over him.

      Remember, you are doing a guy a FAVOR if he’s not your type by gently rejecting him.   He is now free to find a woman and be in a relationship with a woman he adores who adores him back.


      1. 6.3.1

        I think that realistically, it is all over the board.   Some women know very clearly that he is playing them, but as you say, they hope that one day he wakes up and realizes she is the best thing that ever happened to him.   Is she?   The easy answer is maybe, but I would say that the most likely answer is, “not likely.”   Why?   Because more often than not, if he is doing this, and she is putting up with it, she is trying to win the lottery.   He is likely out of her league, and she desperately wants to give it every last chance to work, as a result.   She is not likely to do this with a man who is in her league, or a notch below..   Why?   Because he is more easily replaced.


        If he is in her league, or a notch below, then it is very likely that she doesn’t realize she is being played.   He is likely being less obvious about it. because he has to be.



        I am a firm believer that there are many men who do not want to get married, or don’t want to get married anytime soon, but they also don’t want to be alone.   Well, what is the easiest way to have it both ways?   Easy, shack up with a woman who sees him as her ideal.   Either he has a higher SMV because of physical looks, and or he makes a lot of money, or he is younger, even 2-3 years would be enough.   With all 3 of those things, men who have them know that makes them high value to the woman.   Oh she can try to act like it doesn’t but he knows the truth, and knows she is acting.   He knows because he gets feedback from many women who DO want to date him.   He knows because he sees what women are looking for in dating profiles, and he knows because it’s just common sense.   Women like to brag to their friends that she hit the jackpot, or better put, they like their friends to tell her that she hit the jackpot.   I believe that the need to impress friends by their choice in a man, is the undoing of many women.   They pass by the guys who will give them the relationship they are looking for, because he isn’t going to impress her friends.


        I do also think that you are right in that some women hang on to what they know is a long shot because they hope he will change, and suddenly want her for the rest of his life.   Not likely at all.   Iirn fact, only an insane woman would believe this.   Men don’t just change and suddenly decide that you are the one they want.   I don’t care how many romance novels, love songs, or chick flicks portray this as possible, it is more likely that you will be struck by lightening…twice.


        What is very very likely is that he will shack with you for years, and then some women will pop into his life who does inspire him to want to get married…to her, not to the woman he is currently with.


        I think the main message in Economic Game Theory, which he based off dating, is that if you reach for the brass ring…you are likely to lose.

  7. 7

    It’s all well and good that a guy hits on you after you’ve been polite, but my biggest problem is actually the fact that they WON’T stop after you indicate that you are in fact not interested. In fact, I’ve found that it only encourages men to make more agressive moves like trying to kiss you. I really have a problem with that. Because it means they do not respect my opinion as a person. And being that I’m considered petite (average height but slim and friends sometimes call me pixie to enforce the petite idea) and  most guys are much taller than me, can make those situations quite intimidating. Though I may not show that of course.

  8. 8

    I always try to be polite because that’s how I was raised and I like to treat people how I want to be treated.   However I have become a bit weathered to that.   See a polite no thank you is sometimes not taken nicely.    Men are rude, angry, abrasive and do not take rejection well.   They can be pushy and mistake any sort of attention as interest.   If you are a single woman alone in public it is like open season and want many men don’t realize is that sometimes this is scary to us.   Certain of us that get approached a lot and have had bad experiences like this may be cold and stand offish as a protective mechanicsm.   Evan I think you as a man have never felt this fear and may need to consider it.   I’ve even had man grab me by the arm, hug me from behind etc men I do not know.      These men ruin it for the good guys but we have to protect ourselves.

  9. 9

    Most men don’t know how to read the signals.
    For example, I work with a man who lives in my apartment complex. He came to visit me in my office to tell me he was going to the complex’s Halloween party and to find out if I planned to attend. I said, “I don’t think I will go. When is it? I didn’t even know they were having a party.”
    That is NOT what I would call a buying signal. Had I been interested, I would have said I was going, I planned on wearing a costume and hoped to see him there. If I want a man to ask me out (and provided he’s giving me the signal that he likes me), I will do or say something to give him an opening.
    But this guy didn’t get it. He came into my office twice more over the course of a couple of weeks to again ask me about the party. And each time I said I wasn’t going.
    Even that wasn’t enough … I found out through a friend at work that he planned on asking me out. I told her to tell him I had a boyfriend. I hate to have to lie, but I also don’t want to put in the awkward position of having to turn someone down.
    If a man isn’t sure that a woman is interested, chances are she isn’t.

    1. 9.1
      Not Jerry

      Emily, if you sensed he was interested and you were not, why didn’t you tell him you were going somewhere with your BF? Or even that you’re seeing someone?

      I am a man, but my crystal ball has a crack in it.
      I can’t see that well in it.
      Men will flirt with women, to gauge interest.

      My first GF after my divorce   had been alone a long time, like 15 years. Raising kids. They’re raised now.

      When I first met her at an event I thought she was cute, flirted with her.   Asked her to have a drink with me. She first said no, then yes.   It was nice!

      As we sat and talked some weeks later we talked about that dating / flirting dance.
      She said “you get hit on all the time, but you just don’t react”.
      I asked “Then why did you react when I hit on you?”
      She replied “I don’t know”
      Not the first time I have had that response.   Heh.

      She had been alone a long time, like I said. She had been not responding to men all those years.   As I learned her story over the next weeks I came to realize how I was her first BF in years.   And how much she had trusted me that day.   I will always remember and appreciate that trust. It didn’t last long, she was a beautiful, damaged soul.

      Ladies, if you are hit on by a man, just take it in stride. Say “I’m seeing someone.” Men understand.   We really do. Some are married!

      Only the kind of special Alpha Males that Karmic talks about won’t take no for an answer. You know, a swashbuckling pirate who will go after what he wants, even if she’s not available.
      Too much trouble for this Alpha Male.

      1. 9.1.1

        I don’t agree with you about flirting.

        Men (and women) sometimes flirt just to flirt. It doesn’t necessarily equate to interest. Or at least not to intention.

        The only way you know for sure that a man is interested is if he asks you out.

        This guy hadn’t asked me out yet. He was putting out the feelers, but I wasn’t picking up on them. That should have been enough. And I wasn’t flirting with him. Just chatting with him pleasantly.


        1. Not Jerry

          I flirt with people I am interested in. I can’t imagine.

          Does anyone else think it makes sense to flirt randomly?   I don’t. Not the same as being cordial.

        2. Karmic Equation

          I flirt with attractive men to acknowledge they are attractive. An attractive man knows he’s attractive and that the flirting is meaningless other than to acknowledge each other as attractive. But until he asks her out, most attractive women know that flirting is the end game, not a date.

          However, I don’t flirt with UN-attractive men because they will mistake flirting for interest.

          And why do you keep calling yourself an Alpha male, Not Jerry? True alpha males don’t go about telling others they’re alpha.  That’s a sure sign that they’re not. Sheesh.

          I agree with Emily in that if he doesn’t ask her out, she’d be presumptous to tell him she’s not interested.

          Alpha males are not afraid to ask a woman  out if they’re interested in her. If they want to know if a woman wants to go out with him, he asks so her to get a definitive answer. If she says no, he won’t take it personally, and might try to charm her into saying yes. If she sticks to her guns, he still doesn’t take it personally and just moves on to the next gal he’s interested in.

        3. Not Jerry

          Now Karmic, you’re backtracking on your definition of an Alpha Male. I know you said Alpha Males don’t take no for an answer, but you didn’t say that here.

          You are essentially admitting what I said, that an Alpha Male is not some dumb as a stump guy who pursues women who are unavailable.   I can’t imagine wasting time like that.

        4. Karmic Equation

          Not backtracking at all.

          Re-read my posts.

          I said he doesn’t take the FIRST no for an answer, typically. I’m pretty consistent about that. Having dated real alphas. They’re charming, and they know it.

          Just like they say in sales, the sales process starts at “No”.

          A true charming alpha takes that as a challenge and does NOT creep a woman out with his blandishments. But he’s not an idiot, if he gave his best shot at chance #2, and she still says no, he moves on. He might revisit a few weeks or months down the line, but he doesn’t start “stalking” her. Alphas do NOT stalk. They don’t have to. They get stalked. lol

      2. 9.1.2

        Plus, you don’t want to have to resort to the “I have a boyfriend” excuse. It could block your chances with someone you actually like.

        1. Not Jerry


          You are being inconstant here. You complained that men cannot read oblique, veiled signals from women. Well, no, men are not mindreaders.

          A man who lived in your complex expressed minor interest and you were not interested. You were however pleasant but didn’t want to say anything that might show him you are not interested, because it might unhook someone whom you are interested in?

          I really don’t get that at all.   How is he supposed to know any of that?

        2. Karmic Equation

          If Emily tells him she has a boyfriend when she doesn’t, he might go around telling other men she may be interested in that she already has a boyfriend, and thus, umm, c*ckblocking her, so to speak.

          You get it now?

        3. Not Jerry

          There’s treatment for paranoia, Karmic.

          That’s just ridiculous.

        4. Joe

          Guys don’t go around telling each other, “that  girl has a boyfriend.”   If a guy expresses interest in a girl to another guy, that guy will just think to himself, “she’s got a girlfriend, but man, good for him if he can get her to say  ‘yes’.”

      3. 9.1.3

        @Emily    “I don’t think I will go. When is it? I didn’t even know they were having a party.”

        Sorry, but that was pretty vague if you ask me.

      4. 9.1.4

        Not jerry, if a woman tells you things like “I’m not looking for a relationship”, or “I only see you as a friend”, it’s not rocket sciense. She’s trying to tell you that isn’t interested, and its not her fault if you can’t take a hint. Learn to read in between the lines. I told this one guy point blank that I wasn’t interested but it didn’t do any good. I’ll be honest too, I rejected him because I wasn’t attracted to him, he took zero pride in his appearence, and he was too needy. Needier than family members of mine, which gave me red flags. Years ago, I told a guy that liked me I already had a boyfriend, which was actually true. But that didn’t work either. Thing I found comical is did he actually think I’d leave my boyfriend for him? Common now! Lol!

    2. 9.2
      Not Jerry

      You girls wouldn’t like it if guys stopped flirting.

      1. 9.2.1
        Karmic Equation

        Only if the attractive ones stopped flirting with us.

        It’d be a relief for the unattractive to stop. Then we won’t have to hurt their feelings.

        1. Not Jerry

          As we discussed, there is someone for everyone. Someone that everyone finds attractive. Everyone is attractive to someone.
          Your move. Haha.

        2. Karmic Equation

          I’m not the paranoid one, darlin’.

          You’re the one who needs the red carpet rolled out for him to ask a woman out. And yet you keep calling yourself “alpha male” whenever possible.

          Alpha males, read that as “Confident” males, don’t wait for the red carpet to be rolled out by a woman to ask her out. He asks because he’s confident that she’ll say yes. And he remains confident even if she says no. He understands that it’s not a reflection of him as a person, but just a reflection of her lack of attraction for him. If she’s not attracted, then she’s not attracted. No big deal. To lesser, non-alpha men, a woman saying no to a date  is a huge ego blow that saps his  confidence.

        3. N

          “And why do you keep calling yourself an Alpha male, Not Jerry? True alpha males don’t go about telling others they’re alpha. That’s a sure sign that they’re not. Sheesh.”

          Hahahahaha!! Spot on Karmic!!

          So so true. I’m living with an alpha male who’s oblivious to it. When I mentioned alpha in one of our conversations he thought I was referring to our foster dog–100 lbs. Dogo Argentino, a lovely sweet dog who gets too excited when around other dogs, however, when around my beau he is well-mannered and calm. To which I said, see, even Sniper knows you’re the alpha dog!   Lol :))

        4. Not Jerry

          Haha Karmic.

          You are recanting on your definition.

          I need no carpet, red or otherwise. I have plenty of options.
          I don’t get turned down often. Not often at all. But I am very selective.

          There’s plenty of women that I would not be interested in, mostly because they have nothing to say. Uninteresting. And that goes on all day long.   Lots of uninteresting men who have nothing to say as well.

          As I get older I have come to realize how much of that there is in the world.   People with nothing interesting to say.

          That’s my main criteria.

        5. McLovin

          Wow…should unattractive men just commit mass suicide?


          Or perhaps pre-apologize for daring to have  the desire to be in a relationship, despite less than statuesque features?


          And all those ‘red pill’ type jerks who say women have no empathy and/or outright disgust for men they see as ‘below’ them. /s

      2. 9.2.2

        Thank you, Karmic Equation. That is exactly what I meant.

        I want to keep my options open.

  10. 10

    If I needed a new washer machine and some cute, random guy on street came up to me and said, “Hi, my name is Joe and I sell washer machines”,   I would probably say “Hi, gotta run”.    My first  instinct says back away even when everything is normal.    I don’t know if this is over-perception or under-perception but I get   the feeling it sends decent guys packing while the  losers remain undeterred.

  11. 11

    And, to Not Jerry: I like flirting with men in general. I don’t have to be interested in someone to enjoy the interaction. I like talking to this guy; I just don’t want to go out with him.


  12. 12

    The problem is that guys take it too personally and start acting rude and aggressive when they are rejected. Last weekend I was at the party and one guy started talking to me. Yes, I smiled and kept a conversation going but I wasn’t interested in him in any way. After a while, he asked for my phone number and if I’d go to have drinks with him. I replied: “No, sorry, I am not interested”.   He asked why. I don’t really understand what he expected to hear, so I just told him the truth that I wasn’t attracted to him. He got all angry and told me: “Oh, don’t flatter yourself, you are not that hot”. The guy was maybe 5″3, overweight, in his mid forties and making third of what I am making (he talked about it during our conversation and he was very proud about himself, I never told him my income) and I was very nice and polite to him.   Men are just delusional.

    1. 12.1

      There are three guys that mistaken my friendliness as being interested in them. One of them of which I told him four times I was interested then he still asked me if I wanted to hang out. I responded if “If I’m not to busy”, now if I was actually interested in him, then I would’ve said “yes” without hesitation. S This guy was either couldn’t take a hint, or no for an answer (creep). So I blocked him from all my social media accounts, and only talk to them. Another guy asked me out because, and I told him “Im sorry I only see you as a friend, and don’t want a relationship right now”. Whenever someone says that what they really mean is “I don’t want a relationship with you”. Afterwards he wouldn’t talk to me, and acted like I kicked him in the groin, or something. I don’t owe him or any other guy a “date”, or “relationship”. They need to get over it, and move on.

  13. 13

    Ah this article and responses are just more reasons why my life is so depressing.   My too attractive for me (now) wife actually hit on me, I bit, and then she got cold about it but she couldn’t let go I guess.   I was too inexperienced and probably desperate (we’re from a stupid religious culture) to know to run like hell at that point.   That cold was the beginning of a near 20 year Arctic winter. She literally has resented that I am attracted to her.   Yes I am a man that was and is delusional.

    Now my life is a cautionary tale devoid of the joys we should all experience.   Simply put, I stayed because no way should I get a girl that hot and I simply loved the attention.   I know now that looks and money make up too much of one’s dating prowess.   I’ve said in other posts – give me the kind and loving, non-selfish/narcissistic “5” woman every time.   I’d bet it would be more true in reverse than most women might think too.   People with 8+ looks are just too likely to be all about themselves IMO.

    I feel for you ladies for being hit on too much – I know sometimes you must feel like a piece of meat.   Men are stupid and delusional.   I know, I am.


  14. 14

    So to sum up the general vibe I’m getting from women commenters it sort of sounds like this:

    “All this attention I’m getting from men is sooooooo hard and soooooooo exhausting.   And what’s up with the ugly dudes hitting on me?   Don’t they know they don’t have a chance in hell with me?   The nerve!”

    Kinda smacks of entitlement attitude, don’t you think?



    1. 14.1

      Don’t you think that sometimes we don’t want the attention and it is exhausting? When I come to a bar with my girlfriend to have a drink and talk and every 5 minutes someone interferes and cuts our conversation and thinks that he is a center of the universe   and doesn’t understand that we don’t want to talk to him – that’s exhausting. Not respecting our space, making sexual comments and talking about their sexual preferences – that’s exhausting.

      1. 14.1.1

        “Don’t you think that sometimes we don’t want the attention and it is exhausting?”

        Unless, of course, he is cute, handsome or really good looking.   Then your ‘exhaustion’ turns into ‘excitement’. Mind you I’m not excusing all the crass, rude or sometime belligerent behavior demonstrated by some men, but when I hear women constantly complain about all the attention they receive it’s smacks of humble-bragging to me.   Granted it can be an annoying burden at times and I am by no means dismissing that.   But please understand that your too much attention problem is something that 99.99999% of men will never experience.   So which would you rather have — too much attention that at times is annoying, or virtually no attention at all?

        1. CaliforniaGirl

          Too much attention sometimes is a payoff of a hard work – diet, exercise, choice of flattering clothes, manicure, pedicure, hair, good cosmetics. And I am talking only about appearance because my intelligence is irrelevant to 99% of they guys who hit on me in public places. Do you think women look great just because? It’s a hard work every single day. But men just want to get a piece of it for free without investing anything.   Attractive guy – it’s not only if he has a good facial features or 6″2 height, it’s also his grooming, fitness level, clothes and smell, oh, so many guys just smell bad. So, maybe, just maybe instead of laying on the couch and watching sports, they should hit a gym or ask their friends to help them with wardrobe and finally buy a deodorant.

        2. Emily

          You didn’t read my earlier post:

          I like flirting with men in general. I don’t have to be interested in someone to enjoy the interaction.

          Women like attention from men; it’s just extra special if it’s from someone who appeals to you.

      2. 14.1.2

        When you return to the bar in ten years you will not be bothered and exhausted…

        1. CaliforniaGirl

          Then I’ll go to doctor offices or cemeteries to meet men who will be interested in me 🙂

      3. 14.1.3

        California girl. Exactly. If I actually want a guy to come speak to me I make it blatantly obvious with clear eye contact, smoldering looks and inviting smiles. The game is on. Most men are just pathetic at reading female interest and it’s those men who are offended on this forum.

    2. 14.2

      NO. it’s a sense of entitlement, piggish and narcissistic for men to assume that they don’t have to measure up to whoever they are trying to hit on. This is pretty common for the average male as they are caveman level. This is just the truth.

      The ones that are more evolved will consider who they are in relation to their target as well as be more respectful if they are even rejected.

      If you want the right to choose who strikes your fancy as well as a step-up, then you should also realize that you must take rejection as well. I’ve noticed that these entitled males tend to be the least attractive or losers who have the nerve to turn down or ignore women on their own level of attractiveness, intelligence or status etc while being delusionally egotistical about what they think they deserve. That’s all immaturity.

      In the end, it doesn’t matter who rejects you or not because it’s everyone’s perogative and no one owes anyone a relationship or hook-up. Only sociopaths and perverts think others owe them something if they want something from them, regardless of how they feel about it or what’s in their best interest etc. Plenty of rapists, molestors, pedophiles and sexual harassers in that department too.

  15. 15

    “But men just want to get a piece of it for free without investing anything.”

    Generalize much, do we?   All I’m saying is that even moderately attractive women will at some point in life receive far more attention than the vast majority of men will, regardless of their attraction, height, fitness level, and/or attention to grooming details.   I’m not lamenting this by any means.   It’s just the way it is.   But before you bemoan the plight of the too-much-attention-getting women maybe you should view the dating world from a man’s perspective.   Perhaps then you might appreciate the advantages you may have.

    1. 15.1

      I believe that if a man invests in his looks, confidence, social skills, professional growth, he’ll get attention from women. I know guys who are not attractive physically by our social standards but they are so funny, positive and easy to be around that they don’t have any problem in getting women.   I met my ex boyfriend in a bar, he wasn’t even my type, but he made me laugh and he left me be after some time, so I went and looked for him myself.

      1. 15.1.1

        I believe that if a man invests in his looks, confidence, social skills, professional growth, he’ll get attention from women.”

        I’m sure he will, but it is rare and far less attention than most women will receive.   Ask yourself this question — and be honest with yourself — have you ever directly hit on a man that interested you without him making the first move?   If you answered yes, then congratulations, you are one the very rare few that have the courage to do this.   If you answered no then you are the same as the vast majority of women in the world.   Women rarely make the first move because they don’t have to and to some extent society has encouraged them not to.   But women also have the freedom to buck the society gender roles and make the first move anyways.   Men by in large don’t have that freedom.   It’s either they make the first move or they live a lonely life.   I’m not trying to say that women are wrong in this or that men are right.   What I’m trying to express is the disdain I have for SOME women that complain about all the attention they receive from men without ever acknowledging the luxury they have in receiving the attention in the first place.

        1. sheina

          Unwanted attention from men isn’t a luxury, its a pain in the ass, nothing to be proud of!

      2. 15.1.2

        And I know very, very well from a lifetime of personal experience that you are totally wrong.

  16. 16

    Yes, I have directly hit on a man. I have propositioned a man before and made the first physical move. And you’re right: It’s not easy, but sometimes it’s preferable because, as a woman, I get to pick instead of waiting to be selected.

    I think the difference is that I only hit on men I am VERY interested in. Which means I do it rarely. With some men, you almost get the feeling that they hit on women all day long … and then wait to see what sticks.


  17. 17


    The simple fact is that while this is a place for women to whine about men and to blame all men for the sins of a few, we men have to deal with an extraordinary amount of bad behavior, particularly hypocrisy, from women. And as shocking as it may seem to this audience, a lot of our behavior makes perfect sense given the forces at play in our lives.

  18. 18
    Dina Strange

    Who cares how hot he is if he treats you like crap. The only criteria for me in a man or rather the biggest one is how well he treats me. Naturally, i want a healthy, intelligent guy, not a slob, but how he treats me def. takes precedence over how hot or not he is.

    1. 18.1
      Karmic Equation

      But the guy has to be at least hot to YOU for you to want to let him treat you in any way, good or bad.

      I think it’s disingenuous for women to claim all they care is “how a man treats her” when most women DON’T let men treat her in any way unless she FIRST finds him at least acceptably attractive to her. And this disclaimer is often by women who stick with their boyfriends or husbands even when they are unhappy. They want to “make him change” — to be more romantic, to be more communicative, to be more supportive, etc — rather than just walk when they find out he’s no longer any of those or realize he never was any of those (only put on a show long enough to hook her).

      It’s not wrong for women to want romantic, communicative, supportive men. But it’s wrong for women to put blinders on after sex and continually trying to get a man to change “back” to his courtship persona, instead of accepting that guy she has now is the REAL guy. And that she should make her stay or go decision based on who he IS now not who he WAS during or who he COULD be if only he’d change.

      1. 18.1.1

        I agree with both of you.   Yes, the looks have to at least be acceptable.   I think the reality is that both men and women are alike in this, and the rest of what KE said.   If this were not true, only the top 1% would get married, and the rest would give up.   We all have a minimum standard, and we simply know it when we see it.   Sometimes, somebody we are not initially attracted t can become attractive to us, just because we become comfortable with their looks over time.   Both men and women do this.   But KE is right, if you don’t at least like what you see, you aren’t going to even give the person a chance.


        That said, I think some people prioritize differently, and KE alluded to this.   Some men and women will allow a very beautiful person treat them poorly because of how good looking they are.   They don’t want to give up on them because the reality is, they fear that if they do, the person they end up with won’t be nearly as good looking.   I say bleh to that.   And that is what Dina was saying.   I think Dina and I are alike in that we would rather have somebody that meets our minimum standard in looks, who treats us very well, rather than have somebody whose looks bowl us over, but they also treat us like crap.   So Minimum Looks + Awesome Personality > Awesome Looks + Unacceptable Personality.


        In all of this, I don’t think men and  women as a whole, differ much, if at all.

  19. 19
    Karmic Equation

    Dude, if you were “turned down by roughly a dozen of the gals I was sexually attracted to” then maybe you were aiming too high and your friends/family were trying to get your head out of your *ss….I mean…the clouds…by matchmaking you with a woman IN your league as opposed to miles above it.

    It’s clear that even 1’s want 10’s. It’s just as clear that 10’s don’t want 1’s.

    Additionally, I do believe that family/friends try to matchmake based on PERSONALITY rather than looks. So if the girls/women they were matchmaking you with were “busted” maybe that says something about your personality, even back then. They weren’t going to matchmake the sweet pretty girl with a pill.

    I’ve never witnessed any “ugly” women trying to insinuate herself into the presence of a hot guy. I’ve seen ugly women making spectacles of themselves to get attention, e.g., wear too tight clothing, pole dancing against a column, believing they were showing how sexy she was, when women are real sexy would not do things like that in public.

    Anyway, maybe you just overvalued your own SMV while simultaneously undervaluing other women’s SMV, creating the huge gulf.

    Or you could be a gorgeous guy. But most gorgeous guys are nice to ugly women. It costs them nothing to be nice to her. So if ugly women approach you, and you were mean, then I would say  your being continually approached mostly by “ugly” women is karmic revenge on you by the universe, if not merely an overestimation of your own attractiveness.

    1. 19.1


      Always enjoy reading your posts, even if I don’t always completely agree. Now, this time, you have it partially right; any man, given the opportunity, will try to flirt/date   up rather than down For that matter, I can tell you that I WILL hit on an available woman   if I’m so inclined,   regardless of whether I think she is “out of my league” or not. Why? Because it’s possible she may not think that, and the only way I (or any man) can know for sure is to try. The worst that’s going to happen, is that she blows me off, maybe even rudely, but so what?   “You may not get what you ask for, but you will for damn sure NOT get what you DON’T ask for! Exactly what did I lose by trying? Nothing, and that’s the entire point. I’m not about to apologize for it either; for the most part, our society has decreed that men are expected to be the pursuers and make the advances (and deal with the inevitable rejections). Of course, that implies being willing to take “No!”, either directly, or in body language, as an answer and move on; I for one am not going to waste time on an interaction that’s obviously unwelcome. The point that the mere attempt “might” insult your (or any woman’s ) ego is of no concern to a man; consider it the price you pay for the advantage (and it is a real one) of being able to reject, instead of being rejected. Also, in this enlightened age, any of you ladies DO have the advantage of making the first move yourself (with attendant risk to your ego, of course) should the “Right” man not be the one to hit on you; I’ll even give the less desirable among you credit for at least having the spine to take that risk, if you do it openly. This brings me to where I rather disagree with you: unattractive women most certainly DO try to insinuate themselves into the presence of hot (or even average )guys, as Russell and Obsidian have illustrated. They are just less direct in doing so; generally they let friends/family members try to set it up for them. I learned a long, long time ago, NEVER to bite on a woman’s offer to set me up with her friend, sister, co-worker, etc; first, because a woman’s loyalty is more likely with her girl friends than to any male friend, second, because even if it weren’t, I have found that most women are the worst possible judges of an average to below average woman’s   physical attractiveness to a man. Let me illustrate: if a woman tells me her friend   (there’s never a picture handy, of course)   “has a pretty face”, that translates to “…and is at least 40 lbs. overweight” , and “ok for her age translates to “…with a face that would stop a clock!” No, thank you! At least , if the woman makes a direct approach, I can find (without being rude, no need for that)   an excuse to exit the conversation as soon as gracefully possible (not that dissimilar to what most of you do, when the situation is reversed).

      Reality is that BOTH genders try to date up, and perceive their SMV to be at least in the upper half of what they can occasionally attract, which means we ALL draw a lot of interest from people we’re not interested in. Part of the price of playing the mating game.

      1. 19.1.1

        Hi Buck – Great post.   I agree, women who want men to “man up” and be the pursuers really shouldn’t complain that a man merely approaches her and tries to chat her up.   Unless he gets aggressive and pushy, there’s no reason to be rude.   And just because she doesn’t feel attracted enough to him to date him, she can be polite and have a friendly conversation with him, maybe even introduce him to others if she is at a social gathering.   Draw him into a group conversation, who knows, there might someone else there who be glad to meet him. Once in a group conversaton, it’s easy to exit gracefully without making the guy feel like crap.

        And you are right, if men don’t at least approach a woman, they will never really know if he was “her type” or not.   (I prefer that phrase over “league” talk)

        My ex-hubby knew who I was from afar (I honestly didn’t know he existed) for a little over a year, then finally got the nerve to ask me out.   Many years later (when we were divorcing) I asked him   why he took so long to ask me out.   He said it was because he thought I was “out of his league”.   I really thought that was laughable, because I NEVER considered him “beneath me” or not good enough, or ANYTHING like that.   Sadly, 23 years later he decided he didn’t love me any more and left.   So I think men SHOULD approach women they are interested, and move on the the next one if she’s dis-interested.   You never know unless you try.

      2. 19.1.2

        “Reality is that BOTH genders try to date up, and perceive their SMV to be at least in the upper half of what they can occasionally attract, which means we ALL draw a lot of interest from people we’re not interested in. Part of the price of playing the mating game.”


        I like what you have to say.   I generally agree a lot with people like you, Karmic Equation, and several others.   We tend to see things logically, but that doesn’t mean we will always agree on everything, or agree on all the details.   For instance, the above.   I basically agree with this.   However there are a few details that can be added that clear up the picture, in my humble opinion.


        First, we use SMV to cover everything, when in reality, SMV really only means SEXUAL Market Value.   There is an ocean of difference between sleeping with someone and marrying them.   I would suggest that there needs to be at least one more acronym, and maybe two.   RMV (Relationship Market Value), and MMV (Marriage Market Value), though maybe RMV alone can cover it.   This is important because often, people will gladly have sex with someone they would never consider marrying.  Men and women approach this differently.   I’ve read the female version in many articles, and heard it from several women, and the men’s version we are well aware of.


        For women, it generally goes like this. “The guy is a total jerk, and I wouldn’t marry him if he was the last man on Earth, but he is totally hot, and I haven’t gotten laid in a few weeks, so I’ll sleep with him, but keep it at that.   If he’s good, and he is up for it, I’ll make him my stand-by booty call.”


        For men, it’s more like, “Meh, I wouldn’t date her.   I can do better, but she’s do-able, so I’ll hit it and quit it.”


        So the formula here is that men will sleep with a woman who doesn’t completely repulse him.   Women tend to have one night stands and short term affairs with guys who are at or above their league.   I would argue that this is what directly caused the OKCupid findings that women rated 80% of men below average.


        Look, I can easily admit that if I were regularly sleeping with Playboy playmates, even moderately attractive women would look unappealing to me.   That’s going to be a problem for me if I later want to get married, but none of the Playmates want to marry me.   I have developed a taste for the exceptional, and now have to accept the discount aisle.   Not an easy mental shift to navigate.


        I have male friends who are the type that walk into a party and all the women perk up and aren’t subtle about it.   When they were single, and some still are, they were straight hound dogs.   These guys have slept with hundreds and well over a thousand women, for some of them.   It is a topic that nobody likes to talk about, but the reality goes like this.   Make a number stack 1 on bottom and 10 on top,   Make another one beside it.   Put men on top of one and women on top of the other.   Use arrows to go from each number to the opposing stack if you think that level of man or woman would, and does sleep with that number on the opposite sex.   For instance, a man who is a 1 would gladly sleep with a woman who is a 10, but it isn’t going to happen without an exchange of money (prostitute) so no arrow.   What you will find when you are done is that most of the women are sleeping with men maybe 1 point below their number to a good 4 or 5 numbers above their number.   For men, it’s just the opposite.   Except for the occasional exception to the rule, men don’t score women well above their SMV.   This is not true for women.   Women routinely sleep with men 2 and 3 points above their SMV, and so they have an inflated sense of their RMV, because we often equate the two.


        I think this is a phenomenon that most people recognize to be true, but they don’t really want to admit it, or discuss it.   So to take your analogy that both genders try to marry somebody in the upper 50% of their SMV, can you see the problem?   Yes, a man who is a 7 is trying to marry a 7 or 8.    A woman who is a 7 is trying to marry an 8 or 9.   That causes a lot of problems in my opinion.   However, I don’t blame women for this alone, because after all, it is the fact that men will sleep with women they would never consider for marriage that causes this problem.   Women share the blame because they stopped being the gate keepers of sex.   Their problems could be solved if they paid attention to that Economics of Sex video Evan posted, and stopped having sex with the guys that will not commit to her first.

        1. bigdino

          These 10/10 guys that have slept with 100s of women… how handsome are they? Also, is it possible for a guy who has an average looking face to have the same SMV as them? Have you ever seen anybody with a no-so-handsome face having the same success as them?

  20. 20



    I can attest to what you are saying.   First, let me say that just because ugly women flirt and try to insinuate themselves into our space, that is not a reason to feel like a victim.   By what you said, you are aware that women deal with this also.   However, As KE notes, there are difference, which in fact make KE and other women unaware of the issue, or minimize it as if it is nothing.   It is not nothing.   I will tell a short story that highlights how it is not nothing.


    While I was in the Navy, I had a very active social life.   Well, after one party, a guy I was friends with started inviting me over to his house.   This was after finding out at that party that I had just recently ended a relationship with a girl I had been seeing.   So what became the norm 2 to 4 nights a week was that it would be him and his wife, who was very good looking, and actually similar to the girl I had just broken up with.   Then there was me, a mutual guy friend, and a girlfriend of the guy’s wife.


    Real quickly, I was in excellent physical condition, and played goalie for our command’s soccer team, only allowing 3 goals all season, and 2 in the playoffs that ended our season.   yes, big upset, we were the favorite, and it was definitely my fault on the game tying goal (#2) and then the other team won the shootout.


    The mutual friend, the guy, was what you would call pudgy, but tall at the same time.   Probably 6’2″ and an average face.   The girl was short and pudgy, and always wore those 80’s styles, the Madonna, Cindy Lauper music video styles, trying to hide her body shape with all manner of foo-foo.   The night of the blow-up was no different with her wearing a black outfit with a black tu-tu around her waist, and matching black foo-foo in her hair.   She also had black hair.   I was simply not attracted.   She was not athletic and I always dated athletic girls.   There was a range.   They weren’t all skinny, but they weren’t fat either.


    Well, as it turns out, the guy was attracted to the girl, and she was attracted to me.   The entire reason they were inviting me over was to get me and this girl hanging out, hoping that I would ask her out.   That night the blow up happened because I wasn’t taking the hint, or so they all thought.   I had actually become aware of the fact that she was interested, but acted as if I had no clue.   I was also aware that my friend’s wife, was trying to play matchmaker.


    Well, on this particular night, my friend stated that they were going go out the weekend coming up and wanted to know if I would to go.   I asked if everybody present was going, and I was told that just the other girl would be going along. I said I wouldn’t be able to make it.   It was obvious to everybody that I was backing out because of the girl going.   So the wife asked me what I thought abut her.   I simply said that she was a nice girl, but that I wasn’t interested in a relationship with her.   Things turned kind of hostile.   I brought up that she should go out with the other guy because he was obviously attracted to her.   The girl made an “Ugh” face that I could see but the other guy could not, because he was sitting beside her, and I was across from her.


    I should point out that we were playing a board game, which we often did, and would sit on the floor.   I would always make it a point to put the couple and the other guy on either side of me.   I was very purposeful in doing this.   Didn’t always work out, but I always tried, and usually succeeded in doing this.   So this is why I could see her face and he could not.


    So now it all came out.   She was attracted to me, and not the other guy.   I pointed out that I was not attracted, but the other guy was.   I was then interrogated as to why I didn’t like the girl.   I tried to be honest but diplomatic.   Not good enough.   In the end, I was treated with hostility, and I was the bad guy.   yes, I was supposed to forget that she was fat, while she was allowed to hate that the other guy was fat.   I mean, those two were perfect for each other.   They matched.   But because the girl’s personality wasn’t enough for me, I was a bad guy.   Nevermind that the other guy was a lot funnier, and had a great personality, but that wasn’t enough for the girl.


    So after this, my invitations to their house came to an end.   Me and the husband remained friends at work, but he let me know that the wife wasn’t happy with me, which is why no invites.   It left me feeling very angry.   Yes, I was only welcome if I was willing to go out with the fat girl.   But because I was honest, even if kind while being so, I was a bad guy.


    After more experiences like that, I finally got to the point that I tell friends not to every try to set me up with anyone, and if they do, it will negatively affect our friendship.   I think this why most men do not like friends or family trying to set them up.


    Now, as I noted, this girl was fat, and I was not…not even close.   I was athletic, and she was not.   I was in such great shape I qualified for the Navy SEAL training which worked out great until and injury.   So I must take exception to KE’s analysis that Obsidian has his head in the clouds.   I think OKCupid empirically   demonstrated what all men know, and that is that women in our league think they are above our league, and women below our league think they are in our league, and this is a direct result of the sexual revolution which has allowed many women to sleep with men who are out of her league.   Face it, men are not picky when it comes to sex.   I have seen very good looking men sleep with hideous looking women.   We have names for that.   It’s called “Hogging, or Whale Hunting,” and probably even some other names I am not aware of.   I personally find it detestable, and never took part.   While I have had many sexual encounters by my own standards, I have not had nearly as many as most guys I know because I won’t sleep with a girl unless I am attracted to her.   I’ve never had to run for the door because I woke up in some ugly woman’s bed, but I had many friends call me to come and pick them up, quietly whispering on the phone that they had woken up in some ugly woman’s bed, Saturday or Sunday morning.   There’s even a joke about this that goes, “What does a mo-ped and a fat girl have in common?   They are both fun to ride but you don’t want your friends to know you rode it.”   Again, it is distasteful, and I could never relate, because I don’t have sex with women I am not attracted to.


    But as I said, I do believe that there are a whole lot more women who over-value their SMV.   OK, wait, no…women know exactly what their SMV is, but they haven’t a clue what their RMV (relationship market value) is, because unless she is in the top 20%, she is likely overvaluing herself by about 2 to 3 points.   Why?   Because she thinks it is the same as her SMV, which is inflated by the fact that guys out of her league will sleep with her.


    OK, sorry but the short story got long…but I could have made it much longer by including a lot of details that I did not.   If you read the whole thing, thank you for your attention.

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