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First of all, I love your advice. In fact, it’s because of your advice that I’m in my first serious, long-term relationship. (We’ve been together a year and a half and live together.) Now, however, I’m confused about the state of my relationship.
See, ever since we started dating – even before we started dating and knew each other through friends – I knew this guy didn’t believe in marriage.
I know you’re going to say: “Why didn’t you pay attention to the negatives?” I can honestly say I didn’t realize at that point that it mattered to me. I’m fairly young (late 20s) and it is just beginning to dawn on me that I’d like to get married. Now I realize how much I do want to get married to the person I love. He still doesn’t believe in it. He believes in long-term commitment and family, but not marriage (his family history is pretty rocky). I said to him that I don’t want to wait, and if I weren’t engaged after a couple years together I would think of moving on.
This really hurts him – to him, BECAUSE I want to marry him and wouldn’t just want a relationship, it means I love him less. He’s offered the following compromise: in a few years, when we decide to have kids, then we can get married. I’m scared, though. Is it stupid to wait that long? And is it a bad idea to marry someone who is basically like “fine, fine, we can get married.” I know he loves me and is committed to me, but I wonder how healthy that is.
Now I feel that this big difference in values is constantly hanging over me, and is making me feel negatively about things.
For a point of reference: our relationship is pretty good. We rarely argue (I would say we’ve had about 3 large arguments in our relationship, and maybe a smaller disagreement every couple of weeks.) We both want kids. We both have our irritating habits but we accept them. —Katie
Dear Katie,
Thanks for your kind words. I’m thrilled that you found a serious, long-term relationship using my advice, and I’m candidly delighted that you even quoted the advice you ignored about “ignoring the positives and believing the negatives”.
It would be easy for me to tell you to run from him. But I’m not so positive that you would be closer to achieving your goal that way.
Except now the chickens are coming home to roost. Or something like that.
Listen, I can’t tell you anything about your relationship that you don’t already know.
I think it’s unfortunate that he has such a distorted view of marriage that he’s given up on it as an institution.
I think it’s great that you’re trying to understand where he’s coming from — how it hurts him that he feels that HE’S not enough without a ring on your finger.
I think it’s telling that he attempted to come up with a mutually agreeable compromise, especially since it’s one where, apparently, you get exactly what you’ve always wanted: a husband, a ring, and a baby
So you’re faced with the timeless dilemma that all women face — should I stay or should I go? This very question was the topic of an hour long FOCUS Coaching call so believe me, I’ve got a lot more to say about it than I can compress into a single blog post.
It would be easy for me to tell you to run from him. I’m sure some of the other readers will say just that. But I’m not so positive that you would be closer to achieving your goal that way. And what we’re always trying to figure out here is effective vs. ineffective — what’s the best way for Katie to achieve her dream of marriage and kids with a man she loves?
So here’s the reason I think you might want to stay and make things work:
As Dale Carnegie pointed out many years ago, people don’t want to be sold; people want to choose.
You meet a pushy car salesman who wants to give you a great deal and won’t let you off the lot until you buy…and you’re not gonna buy from him.
That same car salesman takes the time to ask you what you’re looking for in a car: speed, price, mileage, safety…and you WILL buy from him, because you’re getting to choose on your terms, without any pressure.
The way you have the greatest leverage over your man is if he can’t imagine his life without you.
This is what women routinely forget when they’re angling for marriage. The more you pressure him to know that he wants to spend every day of the rest of his life with you and give you half of his income if he’s wrong, the less he’s going to want to do it.
So your arbitrary timelines: six months, nine months, one year, a year and a half… they don’t mean anything to your boyfriend. They’re arbitrary ticking clocks that you’ve created to justify your insecurity about investing time in one man. If you push for marriage too soon, before he’s ready, you will not get married to him. The woman who does get married to him will be the one who is patient enough to let him choose her.
The way you have the greatest leverage over your man is if he can’t imagine his life without you. One and a half years into knowing my wife, I could easily imagine life without her. Three years in, and I would be a hopeless, lonely, drooling idiot without her.
Your age, Katie, is a considerable factor. If you invest two or three more happy years in your boyfriend and decide to have kids at age 32, then you will likely get everything you want.
If, for some reason, your live-in boyfriend of 4 ½ years — a man who is virtually a common law husband — a man who says he loves you and wants to be a father someday — if, for some reason, he balks at marriage before kids, THEN you dump him.
However, unless your boyfriend is a liar, such behavior would be entirely illogical and inexplicable. And since he’s your boyfriend, I’m not counting on him being a liar.
I think he’s a good man who loves you, wants to be a dad, but wants to make sure he’s not making a huge mistake like so many others he knows.
Enjoy your relationship, become indispensable to him, and he will voluntarily want to lock you in for life when you’re both ready to have kids.
Remember, men act in their own self-interests and it’s in his self-interest to keep the woman he loves the most.
If I’m wrong, you would still be 32 and have your prime dating years ahead of you.
This woman and this woman gave their relationships 2-3 years to fully cement and ended up getting the marriage they always desired. It just took a little more patience.
If you think he’s “the one,” then I think it’s worth the risk. Good luck.
Katie;
FWIW, I don’t think much of marriage either. Unless raising children is in involved marriage doesn’t do much for two adults beyond mundane things like health insurance. It wouldn’t be a statement of my love for a woman.
Your BF said he is willing to marry you after several years if you both want children. That is everything you want and the way things should be. A couple spends time together and they know if they can make it as a couple, long term, before bringing a child in the world.
I know that you WANT him to WANT to marry you. I think you are missing the boat on that. Marriage is nothing but a legal contract. What you want is to be convinced of his love for you and his commitment to you. Those things exist apart from the marriage and in a way he has demonstrated them by being willing to do something he doesn’t believe in to be WITH YOU.
You haven’t mentioned how long you have dated him. Why not date him for at least 3 years? After that point you will know if he is willing to stick around or not and you will both know each other very well.
I used to agree with the above, and was almost violently anti-marriage. My 7 year long relationship was awesome and we were moving forward in life like we were on fire. And then he developed obsessive compulsive disorder, and his life effectively ended as he quit his graduate program, job, and our relationship.
And there I was, with no meaningful recourse for the loss of shared belongings, the money I’d invested in his future, the sacrifices made to support this person.
And now, a legal contract called marriage sounds really damned great. My opinion is now, if a guys wants years of my time and emotional commitment, then “put a ring on it” because I am not going to get used and let devastated again in the name of”commitment is more than paper.” The paper IS the commitment, clear as day, and made public.
Exactly, if it’s just a piece of paper, why not sign it? Also, we, as women don’t have that much time to waste, specially if we want to have children.
Spoken like a true chick. Women risk nothing and gain everything in marriage which is one of the main reasons women rush to it. Even prenups get thrown out of court at incredible rates these days leaving men to lose, in some cases, their entire lives just because she wanted out of the marriage. MEN SHOULD NOT BE FOOLED INTO THE SUICIDAL MALAISE MARRIAGE HAS BECOME. The wedding is nothing more then a party ABOUT HER, the ring and marriage certificate is nothing more then a gun pointed at a man’s head and that’s where it all ends because women simply do NOT want anything real to do with the “marriage”.
Because unmarried women do not have the rights that married women do. You’re basically giving him 100% and getting nothing in return. I would get married asap or start opening up to other options and not waste any more of your precious years.
Anonymous:
Women risk all kinds in marriage. We risk our lives giving birth, we sometimes age and lose our bodies prematurely from the assaults of pregnancy, we lose ourselves in raising a family, we lose our marketability in the work place if we devote ourselves too much to our family, all the extra work we do around the house is thankless and unappreciated (because despite modern times, women still do a disproportionately greater amount of work at home, even if they work full time). So here’s the world’s tiniest violin playing for your contempt of women.
Exactly
ITS NOT JUST A PIECE OF PAPER. ITS THE RING ITS THE DRESS ITS THE CAKE IT THE FLOWERS ITS THE WALK DOWN THE AISLE ITS EVERYTHING. MEN DONT GET IT. AND IF YOU REALLY LOVED IT AND HER YOU WOULD PUT A RING ON IT AFTER 6 MONTHS TO A YEAR
I have trouble with someone who says they believe in marriage to get back at their ex with a psychological disorder. I realize you can’t see a psych issue, but it’s the same as a medical issue–there’s something wrong with him, and it’s not really his fault. Even if you’d been married, he would probably have ended up on Medicaid, because he can’t work, and YOU would end up owing HIM, not the other way around.
Also, independent women do not go for their ex’s jugular. It’s not necessary.
Sorry Evan, I dislike when someone says things like this. I pity the person who marries someone who only gets married so if they break up they get paid.
I wish more people thinking like you. Don’t waste your time if you don’t get a ring, and wedding,that is commitment. Don’t be cheap people.
No, it’s not commitment. It is buying into a 1930’s marketing campaign by the DeBeers diamond group. “Engagement” rings didn’t exist until DeBeers decided it needed to exist. I should work for Porsche and have them start a marketing campaign called the “Engagement” car for men. THAT is a commitment, and it shows how strongly a women loves her man. See how ridiculous that sounds? Maybe a catchy slogan: Show him that your love is just as strong as his. Porsche.
John,
People have been using rings as a symbol of commitment since way before debeers. Debeers just made people buy diamonds but before that, any stone or style was sufficient.
I agree with this 100%. Why put 5 years or 7 years of hard work sacrifice in trying for him to see that he doesnt see his life with out you, when you could go out and find someone that wants the same things in life as you. Plus who would want to respond to someone by saying my bf is willing to marry me, that makes it seem like you are trying to control him and like you are making him.
i agree with you! seriously, i mean i am in that situation and seriously it sucks!!!! my family is traditional so its annoying seeing your sisters all married and respected. but my relationship is not serious to them(quot: i’m still fooling around, still a baby). don’t get me wrong i want it for my self. the pretty white our family being reunited and having more self-confidence and being sur “he doesn’t leave me that easy with the bag” cause i lived a lot of shit with him and i was always there for him. when his mother bless her soul was in her final stage of cancer. who was there to care for her? when both him and his mother was sick, who took off running from school to take care of both of them? who went to take him every day to the hospital to see his mother in her car? who held his hand when at the funeral he was almost crying but didn’t want to because he want to be strong for his older sister? who was there for him when he was in depression, all he wanted to do was sleep all day or play video games? ( i quot : i was his maid and his shoulder to cry on even tho i would cry with him) who contacted his friend to invite him to go out so he wouldn’t be around her things all the time?who helped him pick himself up and get a new job cause he lost his job because he’d go to the hospital every day for a month?now he wants to join the army cause he doesn’t have enough money to pay the bills. who drove him there? who takes him out when his sister who is now living with him brings her sex-friend over? hell you a girl like who did all this shit and more should not be a woman to marry or to at least be committed (married by paper) to then you gars suck ass!this guy should think of “tying me down ” before this bird flies away. guys please understand if she wants it really bad because it’s important to her then talk about it and tell why you don’t want to and make sure it’s a risk you are willing to take!
i forgot at first he wanted to but with all the shit i guess he changed his mind. he must think i will always stay with him. even though i told him that its what i want and that i’d leave him if he doesn’t shape up.
I certainly agree w You CJ, i wasted 10 years of life! It was all about him and the demands he wanted.. I pleased him, spoiled him, loved him w al my heart.. He bounced in and out, until i finally gave him an ultimatum, we either get married or we split.. The only thing i saw beneficial here was the benefits at work.. So when he said he did not believe in marriage, I said perfect! I dont believe in investing without a return, so I walked! Its still hard to think back but moving forward is the best decision ever.. 🙂
do you realise that you described a one sided relationship before marriage, in which you jump when he says jump? is that someone that you really would have wanted to spend your life with any ways? that isn’t a guy that you should have wanted to marry. You obviously were not okay with how you were being treated by him without the ring, why would you want to be tied to someone who treated you poorly in the first place? the problem was that he didn’t respect you or what you contributed to the relationship…. you didn’t need to give him an ultimatum, you were already dissatisfied with him. if the relationship wasn’t working for you, a ring would not have changed that.
That is what I am inclined to do: walk. I lived with late husband for ten years; then married him. He died fifteen years later. I lost a lot during those ten years (including a larger percentage of his pension). After almost two years, my partner says he needs more time. He’s afraid. His adult children don’t want him to marry one. (I think they are concerned that their inheritance might be a little less. Yet, they have plenty of money.) If he can’t trust me now or love me enough now, what is another year or two?
My point exactly.
Mary
Shouldn’t you be glad and relieved that you *weren’t* married to your ex? What a nasty divorce that would’ve been.
this is exactly why I refuse marriage. Congratulations you’ve experienced what so many men have to go through. We bust our asses to make a wife happy just to hear one day “I feel like we’ve grown apart. I’m leaving you and taking he kids. You’ll hear from my lawyer”. Marriage favors women far too much and to put a ring on a woman’s finger is giving her a loaded gun pointed at my temple. She has full access to destroy my entire life if she sees fit and believe me she will. No thanks!!!
I was married to my ex-husband for 10 years. We had three kids together. We help put each other through school. When the marriage ended I walked away with our children and $150 a month in child support he got everything else. Marriage isn’t a contract that keeps things fair if you split. It’s a contract that ties two families together.
So beautifully put….
I stopped reading the article when it came to the point he was trying to make about selling a car. Yes no one likes a pushy salesman but if your your boyfriend is not trying to buy a car, letting him test driving it a long time is meaningless. My sister said most guys let you know in the first 6 weeks what they want…most girls aren’t listening! If you want to get married you have to flick off the ones that don’t want it! I’ve been married 3 times. I just so happened to be the one around when they were ready! When they ain’t ready forget about it!
Marriage serves no purpose to men. Its purely beneficial to women only. And its easy to explain why, men stand to lose the most in any event of the divorce for the majority of the time. Note here i said majority not all apply but with 50% of all marriages ending in divorce and 70-75% of those divorces initiated by women its like jumping out of a plane where the pilot tells you your chute may open half the time and the when it doesn’t open a good chance they cute the string themselves. By marrying you there is nothing you really bring to the table that cant be had by just living together. If you were to divorce him you probably get the kids (if you had them at the time), you would probably get alimony and child support and most of the shit in the house and probably the house its self. And the biggest kicker is if he did marry you and god forbid you cheated and got knocked up by another man law says its his kid until you tow divorce and he has a dna test done but still loses the child support money for that kid that wasnt his. Now remember this isnt exactly you but this is shit that is common and happens alot.
Maybe having an equal partner emotionally, financially, and physically by your side; a mother of your children; and a best friend should be of benefit to you. If the woman you’re dating was not your friend before and while you were dating, then you should not have married her. This is YOUR fault. We should all know the character of who we’re going to marry at least well enough to know if they would f*ck us over that badly when divorcing! Why would someone screw you over that much unless you had a hearty hand to play in the deterioration of your relationship and f*cked her up pretty badly as well?
This is just naive. People CHANGE over the course of their lives. The very idea that you could marry someone when you’re both 20 and that you’ll still get along and be the same people all the way until you’re 80 is wishful thinking. It does happen, but it’s extremely rare. It makes no sense to legally bind a relationship that will almost certainly end. You just don’t think ahead when you’re in love, and that’s why so many people end up bitter miserable adults when their marriages inevitably end in divorce. Everything seems great in the beginning. OF COURSE it seems like a good idea at that time. Unfortunately, for the vast majority of people, it just isn’t.
Except divorce rates for college educated couples who marry after 30 is only 20%. So much for “vast majority.”
If you were NOT married…woman also get the kids. Either ways she gets the kids…so you can’t really throw that out there, huh.
In successful careers and earning enough money to retire, women get the short end of the stick. If a man is so selfish he doesn’t want provide financial security to someone he professes to love, he shouldn’t be in an exclusive relationship. They should both move on after two years.
I just left a man who I am very much in love with because he refused to marry me after four years. You men need to stop playing games with women. We have better things to do with our time than to play the “ I hope he eventually wants me” game. FU
Did he come back, did it work out?
Amen!
I’d reccomend patience.
If your relationship is solid, as you say in your writing, and everything else works and you really want to be with him, waiting three more years should be a reasonable compromise.
And given the fact that early you mentioned he did not believe in marriage and you knew before you started dating, it seems to show his character that he actually compromised to do so.
Changing paradigms like that is not easy. And it seems he needs the three years to make absolutely sure that choosing marriage is the right path for him to take.
In the meantime allow him to use you and allow men like the above to tell you to be ‘paitient’ as if you haven’t already been patient. Keep doing what you are doing and recieve a fruitless future and waste more of your youth. Just saying!
but we are missing a vital piece of info. from her and i think ppl. are interjecting their own personal experiences in this like if their experiences are apart of her situation.
1. is she happy with him? is everything else working out well? … sounds like it is, so staying with someone she honestly is happy with WILL NOT hurt her that’s not called “being used”.
2. is she ready to be married right at this very moment?! she said she’s in her late 20’s and she just realized she would like to be married. it had never occurred to her in 20 plus yrs. that she held that belief before…. she wasn’t dreaming of this ever since she was a child. so could it be that: she just realized that ONE DAY she would like to be married, and she knows shes with a guy who doesn’t believe in marriage so now she’s wondering if their relationship has an expiration date. OR is it that she wants to be married right now, in this moment and he isn’t giving that to her?
If she’s not ready to be married right now then waiting it out a bit with someone who she has a great relationship with isn’t the worst idea in the world…. she’s still young. However, if marriage has become her driving force over night then there’s no need to wait & see she should move on. I suspect she is the ” omg i just realized one day i want to be married” type…. he said if they decided to have kids he’ll marry her, and i think that is fair enough coming from someone who isn’t sold on the idea of marriage. My advice would agree on the kids then get married before having the kids. she not being mistreated, she’s not upset why should she leave?…. problem solved case closed.
A friend of mine believes in marriage but her boyfriend of 5yrs didnt. They’ve been living together, travelled the world together, go on lots of wild adventures together, they were basically perfect together. Yet, my friend was walking on eggshells everyday trying to figure out whether he’s ever going to propose to her or not. They have talked about it, but he never gave her a proper confirmation as to whether he wants to get married, he thinks that domestic partnership is enough.
So what my friend did was that she would subtly make small remarks or fun little comments that hint towards marriage (e.g. “Hey, Melissa & Jake are getting married soon, isnt that great?” or something like “that wedding scene in the movie was so romantic!”) Ok well maybe more subtle than these, but you get the point. My friend did this almost every day but only when the topic comes up. And then finally, when they hit their 6-yr mark, the guy suddenly proposed to her! And now they’re married with a cute baby boy.
So yes you should let men be free to make their own choices when it comes to marriage, it might take a while for him to be ready. But at the same time you shouldn’t suffer too much from this uncertainty, if you are then maybe you would be better off finding someone else. Otherwise, like Evan says, enjoy & focus on the Present, not the Future.
Why do you live with a guy before marriage if you want him to marry you. I am not getting this at all.
Right!
because it might not work if you are not able to live together. hello divorce!
At the start of the story it sounded like me and my boy friend. In everyway until later on.
We are now together 12 yrs+ and I have aged and changed in a way that is not attractive anymore and being 59 well I am lost with this subject. I have given my all but tired and we have now also lived together past 2 yrs. I have waited hinted, cried, talked but he never gave me a ring or planned to marry. He is able to live comfortable for him. But for me I cannot afford to live without his help. With saying this I don’t want to wind up any older and alone with nothing. So I AM STUPID!!! But today I sent him away and not sure what to do with the situation I am in. I am lost and sad. I was thin, attractive, and young when we started out but now? Just sad with no answer to what to do. I feel so stupid. To old to start again.
Just lost with what is right.
Don’t let your self worth be defined by your looks. It’s terrible that you wasted over a decade on someone and the only thing you’re left with is insecurity. In a society that tells women they are worthless without the adoration of a man, and that beauty is the main way to capture a man’s interest, it’s very easy to lose hope in love. My advice, and I know it sounds cliche, work on loving yourself. I’m only 29 and it took me about 15 years to figure this out so I guess I’m luckier in that sense, but I think there’s still hope for you to live a happy life. Your self worth has nothing to do with how you look or who you’re with. Work on making yourself a better person and contributing something positive to society. Help other young women see that they don’t have to go through what you’ve been through. It’s never too late to do something positive. I know it seems like it but it’s not. Even if just going to the gym and trying to live a healthier lifestyle is the only thing you think you can do, then do it. You’ll feel better once you start taking small steps to realizing you are deserving of Love and kindness, so be kind to yourself. Sometimes we have to be a little selfish in order to become healthy and in turn we learn what true love is. Did you ever judge your former lover by the inevitable changes he was going through when he was aging, just as you were aging? If your answer is “no” then you need to realize there are other non judgmental people such as yourself out there and you will find a man who appreciates you for you, not just your looks. That said, if you really feel like you need to make a change for health reasons, go work out, girlfriend! Exercise will make you happier and healthy, even if it’s just water aerobics or walking. People will notice a positive change in your demeanor, and that’s what makes you truly attractive: your attitude! Don’t get down on yourself. We’re all rooting for you. And frankly, we shouldn’t need romantic love in order to feel like whole people. just try to look at the bright side. You had 10+ years with someone you loved. things change, they always will. time to start a new chapter in your life and turn the page on this past chapter. not everything is about romantic love. maybe it’s time to start a new adventure. what do you think you can do on this new journey? We live in modern society. let’s act like it. we have so many opportunities available to us that our mothers and grandmothers never had! don’t squander it while you’re alive! don’t be a victim.
Sally – I love what you wrote and I’m on my right path reading this & doing it as well – sending love light wherever you are.
‘…a society that tells women they are worthless without the adoration of a man.’
Oh COME ON, what year are we living In? Read the messages on this site, or any similar site, and you will find a million voices saying that women don’t need a man, and zero saying a woman is worthless unless a man adores her. Do you pay any attention to the culture we live In? I’m going to assume you aren’t posting from Saudi Arabia. Women need to stop this woe is me shit. If there’s a real issue that is u kque to women, yes society should address it. This is just silliness and ammunition for alt right weirdos.
Galilee, stop projecting your apt right spin on to others. Women are relentlessly bombarded by million dollar ad campaigns in every form of media about how we need to look for men and how to get men to like us. But hey, I guess you’re a woman so you would know right? Everything is designed to cator to your gaze and you just take it for granted and don’t even realize it. Childish. My comment was about how she should love herself, but instead you turned it into being about you and YOUR insecurity as a male.
This made me cry. Just saying last night this might happen to me. String me along years until any marketability I may have is gone. I’m 51 and we going on year 3. He is younger so no problem for him jump into dating pool. But I love him. Wish you all best.
Honestly he shouldn’t, why cant she be happy just living with him? there isnt nothing that cant be done that a little piece of business document couldn’t bring. Thats what marriage is it is a business document that brings nothing to men. If you love him then just live with him you two want a kid then have a kid, want to buy a house then buy a house. All marriage does is guarantee him a screw job in the event of a divorce and lots of money wasted.
Ben said: “All marriage does is guarantee him a screw job in the event of a divorce and lots of money wasted.”
So does common-law or adult-interdependent-partners depending on where you live. And that can come into effect as quick as 12 months of cohabitation depending on the law where you live.
For example, the woman can claim unjust enrichment against the man, and he is again on the hook for a guaranteed “screw job”. Also depending on the couple’s location, child support and custody for common-law is usually identical to married.
A prenup or cohabitation agreement is basically the only way to have some guarantee of amicable and proper property division etc.
Pren ups are a joke they dont work and a judge can throw it out if they see fit. Has happens many times. Again marriage has no point why get married when you can jump ship if things dont work out.
Ben, well then I guess you had better stay single for the rest of your life.
If divorce is bad, common-law is bad, and prenups are bad, then you apparently have no other choice, unless you plan on limiting all of your live-in relationships to less than a year.
The whole point of marriage is to show commitment and spend the rest of your lives together no matter what. If you have the right intentions, there would be no need for a divorce.
Ben, why does it have to be a screw job for him. what if she’s the bread winner and the get divorced?
Ben it sounds like you were burnt pretty bad. Sounds like the female you married didn’t have shit going into the relationship. Nothing to offer you period. A woman should bring more to the table than reproductive organs and taking care of the house, and a man should bring more to the table than a job.
I’m the only person who got screwed in my marriage. I’m a female. My marriage literally only benefited my husband.
He sees his kid when he wants and doesn’t pay child support.
Now I get I’m 1 in a million when it comes to females, I do, but I keep Seeing soooo many men saying it doesn’t do anything for a man, it’s for the ladies, blah blah, but I can Safely say most men I’ve been with I’ve helped mold them into a more successful, better and maybe even smarter man than they were before me. I feel Ladies have way more to lose in a marriage period. Money is money and anyone can make it.
Why is it assumed that women bring nothing to the table financially? I own a small farm, have a car and a truck, a decent job, retirement accounts. In my 50’s and in a relationship w a good guy. If he doesn’t want to marry me after another year or two of dating, I’m not waiting around. I’m past the point of having children. When you’re older, there are other considerations as far as being married. I work on the medical field and have the difference in the way spouses are treated, the respect given, as opposed to the girlfriend or “significant other.” We both have children and grandchildren, also. It’s about respect and commitment. Yes, a ring and a paper isn’t a guarantee of ANYTHING. It’s a public declaration with some legal benefits, that’s the reality in our society.
This is why I’m not a fan of living together before marriage, unless you’re engaged. The man has all the domesticity he wants without having to commit to marriage.
However, if you both want kids, and that wasn’t something either one of you were sure about prior to getting together, that changes things, doesn’t it? It’s a pretty good reason to marry. And I’ve read lots of research that has said that men are most motivated to commit in the first 2 years (maybe 3 if you are under 30) or so of a relationship, so I don’t think these timelines are completely arbitrary.
How long should you wait? I’m not sure, but I think that when you really begin to feel strongly about having children, that would be a good time to revisit this. Remember, too, that an engagement can last for a year or two, so you may not want to wait too long before at least getting engaged.
Yes, living together before being at least married puts women at a disadvantage. It’s giving men all they need without the effort of actually committing to anything.
I couldn’t agree more. Men don’t see the reason to propose and get married while they are already living together in a domestic long term relationship. But if any other women are like me, they need to know if this is a serious relationship and not just friends with benefits. Sometimes I feel unwanted and undesirable when my bf says that marriage is stupid and that he doesn’t want to get married. It makes me feel like there is something wrong with me that makes me unworthy of marriage. Marriage means something to me and I feel let down when he always says that marriage is stupid. I think it shows dedication to me and our lives together and that I am not just some friend with benefits all the time. hurts my feelings to hear that my dreams are pointless and meaningless to him. Guys should take that into consideration. Sometimes us ladies just want to feel “claimed” and wanted, even if boys think it is dumb. Sometimes its not about you. Sometimes it is about making your lady happy.
I am so sick of this outdated dichotomy ‘women want the ring and men don’t want to commit’. I am a 25 year old woman and I don’t believe in marriage and I don’t think I ever want kids. I enjoy being in a long term cohabiting relationship with my boyfriend and although I make it clear I am committed to him, he wants to one day put a ring on it and maybe have kids. When I tell him I may never wake up one day and have kids, he gets sad but says he still wouldn’t leave me. I love him but I hate the idea of leading him on. I wonder whether love is enough. I cannot make myself want marriage and kids.
I know I am in serious relationship without the ring. It’s not that you’re unworthy of marriage. People who are adverse to marriage, such as myself, often thing marriage is unworthy of our love… I hate the idea of transforming something as beautiful and as spontaneous as love into something as boring as a contract. I want to wake up each day and make a conscious decision to be with my boyfriend (cohabiting for over 4 years now), not feel trapped because of a piece of paper…
Agree 100%
Exactly!! Esp when friends around you getting engaged and you feel like what is wrong with me that I’m not good enough to proposed to? I know immature but it’s hard to quell that voice sometimes.
no it doesnt, and the reverse can be said about marriage. marraiage give the WOMEN all she needs in a pretty legal binding contract that the men is subjected to. As i beleave and many many other men and even women marriage brings nothing to the table that cant be had by just living together.
More and more people are choosing not to marry and are leading happy lives. A new book by a (presumably) happily married male sociologist with 2 little kids (putting that in so that you can leave aside any ad hominem attacks on his research) describes this trend in detail. He had an op-ed about it in the NY Times this past weekend. You can read it here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/05/opinion/sunday/living-alone-means-being-social.html
The point: There is nothing wrong with his lack of interest in marriage, and while you see it as a “negative” or the result of some kind of psychological damage, you might consider that your take on his lack of interest might be wrong. Choosing to remain single is a positive intention for many people, the research now tells us, and it might be so for him. His desire to stay unmarried may never change, no matter how great your relationship is. So would you consider staying with him without the ring and the contract if all else is in place?
I predict that we’re going to be seeing more of this kind of friction between lovers as time goes on–I mean, this demographic shift is huge–and there are no easy answers. The conflict doesn’t fall out along traditional gender lines, either. Just as many women are saying no to marriage as are men. Maybe more, if you look at divorced/widowed–the women are less likely than the men to say they want to remarry (acc to the sociologist above).
To the readers here: Please don’t take what I’m saying as an attack on marriage or on your desire to find “the one.” If that’s for you, go for it. Just respect that not everyone wants that, and, evidently, fewer people want that than was previously thought. It’s important to understand where the other person is coming from and to accept it, not try to change it, not hope that he (or she) is going to “come around.” And if you believe that there is something wrong with a man or woman who doesn’t want marriage, then you’re going to lose that relationship because no one is going to stay with you if you’re always putting out that that other person a loser, or damaged, or not moral, or immature for not wanting the lifestyle that you want.
Diane, thou dost protest too much. No one is attacking anyone. The OP said that her boyfriend “believes in long-term commitment and family, but not marriage (his family history is pretty rocky).”
Thus, we can conclude two things: 1) That he doesn’t choose to remain single – he believes in long-term commitment and family. 2) That his lack of interest in marriage is specifically due to his rocky upbringing, thus suggesting some psychological damage.
The article you posted was about people who choose to remain single and unencumbered by long-term romantic relationships, which means that they can go to art openings and take spontaneous weekends away whenever they want. Good for those people. It just has nothing to do with the original question, which is about a man who wants EVERYTHING that a marriage offers…without the ring on his finger. No one is judging those who don’t want marriage but if this guy wants everything associated with marriage and his girlfriend wants marriage, one of them is going to have to change their minds…and, in the long-term, it’s probably him.
Evan, What about a couple one and a half years into a relationship, living together, very in love who have been making plans for their future together, she thinking it means marriage he recently stating he doesn’t believe in marriage?
I might add he did say she might be the one to talk him into it.
Makes sense.
great comment. I’m of the mindset that if you want marriage and your partner doesn’t, there’s no sense in pressuring the person or making compromises for them in terms of something so life altering. There is no shame in being honest that the relationship is under too much strain and is time for both people to move on. If you never want to marry, don’t be ashamed, but you may want to ask yourself why. Is it because of legitimate hurt or distrust? If so you might want to work that out in therapy so that any future relationship doesn’t experience the same issues. If you just genuinely don’t find the institution of marriage appealing, then that’s fine. Just always be upfront and don’t be shocked or dismayed if the person moves on. We all have our goals and sometimes a relationship just won’t work if the goals are at odds with each other. Find someone who shares the same values so you can find happiness, no judgement.
[email protected]; Actually, the article doesn’t go into any detail at all about whether those folks who are living single are romantically involved with anyone else or in what way they are (gay, abstinate, polyamorous, committed but living apart, into casual liaisons, with children, without children, etc.). Statistics on “singles” or “unmarrieds” would include all sorts of romantic attachments, just as statistics on “marrieds” would (gay, abstinate, polyamorous, committed but living apart, into casual liaisons, with children, without children, etc.). So I would say that the boyfriend can want long-term commitment and kids and still not want to get married. I’d say that because there are many, many people out there who are in just this kind of situation.
I made the comment about people perceiving what I’m saying as an “attack on marriage” (not on a person or people, as you suggest I am saying) because I’ve read that kind of stuff on here on other posts.
Also, just to point out one other not-so-small thing–people who come from rocky upbringings are not necessarily psychologically damaged, and people who come from stable upbringings are not necessarily psychologically healthy. To attribute his lack of interest in marriage to some kind of trauma is a very simplistic understanding of mental health and relationship and is exactly the kind of misinformation that I was suggesting that people stop bandying about. We know better now.
I would also say that until we speak with him we can’t conclude anything. I take people at their word. If someone says to me that they don’t want to get married, I believe them, without judgment or psychoanalyzing them. I figure that they probably know better than I do what they want and what is best for them. If I think they should get married, or that they should get married to me, or that they will get married to me even if they say they don’t want to, who sounds crazy?
The OP might want to ask herself why she wants to get married. What is it exactly about marriage that she feels is essential to their relationship? I say this because a lot of folks, especially those with less experience with long term relationships, tend to have Hollywood and fairy-tale like views of marriage. Furthermore, they’re more likely to be reacting to social pressure from friends and family, than those who have “been around the block” more.
She also might want to, if she hasn’t already, really sit down and solicit what her boyfriend’s objections are – in detail. Without any pressure to talk about their relationship status. It’s hard to know if his “compromise” is unhealthy or not because we don’t know in more detail what his objections to marriage are, or if he’s just offering to get married later to keep the OP around.
Evan assumes he has given up on marriage. Perhaps he has. Or perhaps he wants it to look differently than the models he has seen around himself. Or perhaps he questions the way in which it’s viewed by many as the only possible “good” outcome of a relationship. I have had a lot of conversations with friends who aren’t interested in marriage, or who are – like myself – on the fence about it. And there are countless reasons why they think as they do. Some maybe are stemming from a failure to deal with past family trauma, but a lot are simply viewing relationships in a different manner from what was given to us by society.
Totally agree. Both people need to really analyze why they do or do not want this relationship to follow a certain path? Is it because they are jaded about marriage? Is it because society told them to think a certain way in order to be considered successful? Both should analyze their motives in order to figure out how to proceed.
I think that the pressures that women used to exert on men to get married are working less and less these days. As others point out, nobody has to get married to anybody anymore to have what marriage offers. So little hints and waiting around and hoping he’ll take those hints and notice your foot tapping away may not work in the long run.
I say that if you’re sure that you want to be married and he’s said that he really doesn’t, cut your losses and go find someone else who does want to get married. It isn’t fair to waste his time and put him through all of the trauma of thinking that he has a life partner on one set of terms but then giving him an ultimatum because one day you’ve decided enough time has gone by for him to change–especially when he’s been clear about not wanting to get married all along, & you knew all along that you were going to bail if he didn’t propose.
My sister is big into giving guys ultimatums. It works, she says. She should know–at 43 she’s on her third marriage. My brother was on the receiving end of pressure to marry his long-term girlfriend and gave in. That also ended in divorce. And many of the divorced guys I know complain about not having wanted to be married to begin with, but that the woman (or the family or whoever) pressured him into it. The guy may love a woman and not want to lose her but not want to be married. Women shouldn’t take advantage of his feelings or of the social pressure to make him do something that he doesn’t want to do. It may not backfire, but it also stands a really big chance of backfiring. Wouldn’t it be better not to have to deal with that and just find someone who’s on the same page as you? If lots of people want to get married then it’s just a matter of going out with guys from that pool and not going out with guys clearly not in that pool.
It’s not just about getting the ring, it’s about what happens after.
I have seen cases where one partner, who strongly wanted marriage, immediately wanted the relationship to change, to match more with his/her idea of marriage. The OP then feels trapped or deceived, having expected the relationship/person to be the same as before the ceremony. Yes, it can also work out just fine, but people need to tread carefully.
Katie,
My darling, wonderful, amazing boyfriend of 4 years also doesn’t believe in marriage, but also wanted a life partner and long term commitment- but we don’t intend to have kids, so there is even less legal reason to get hitched. However, similar to your boyfriend, he knows its important to me. When we decided to move in together I made it very clear that I wanted to get married, but was willing to do it on a timeline he felt more comfortable with. For him, that was after he and paid off a good chunk of his student loan debt.
We’re planning to get engaged this year and married next – is he jumping for joy? No. But is he willing to do this thing that means so much to me? Yes. There are times where I wish I had a guy who was so “head over heels in love with me” that he HAD to marry me, but I realized that my guy is so head over heels in love with me that he’s willing to do something he would rather not in order to keep me and make me happy.
Sure, there’s always the chance that he’ll not be able to do it when the time comes, but I believe deep down that it won’t happen. If I know nothing else, it is that he is a man of his word. My point is that it’s not about the romance of a man desperately wanting to marry you – but knowing that this is a man you can compromise and build a life with.
I see marriage as a great legal way to get your financial stuff in order as a family, if you’re going to depend on each other physically and financially. Being able to add each other to your medical insurance is pretty high on the list. Personally I don’t plan on remarrying, but that’s because I’m done raising a family and at this point I’m just out to enjoy life and have fun together as a couple. That, of course, may change, but at least it’s where I stand at the moment. If I were in a relationship where we planned on owning a house and having kids together, I’d sleep a lot better at night if we were legally married. That said, Katie’s BF seems to be of the same mindset, since he’s OK with getting married when they start having kids.
I’m curious about why he doesn’t want to marry. I can honestly say that I have two friends who are in a satisfying longterm relationships without marriage. Both my friends and their significant others are declared atheists (one is American, one French), without a chip on their shoulders, generally happy, gainfully employed, good relationships with their families, etc. I think that unless the individual holds particular philosphophical views (like these people) about why they don’t want to have a legal marriage, I am not convinced that he/she will have a satisfying longterm relationship. I have a very close friend who tried to believe that she didn’t care, but she did and it turns out that her now ex-husband was too chicken to break things off. She got him to marry her, he had an affair with a coworker while she was pregnant.
Ooh! This is fun. And nobody has said anything mean yet.
Thanks for your great advice, Evan.
I think I sent that email a month and a half ago… obviously, I knew that a busy dating guru would take some time getting to my dilemma so I had to sort of figure things out myself. I told my significant other that I would leave it alone for the time being, but that marriage is still important to me. I haven’t brought up the topic with him since then, which I think was a good choice on my part.
I know it will come up again in the future, and I’m not looking forward to that day, but at least for now I have taken the pressure off him.
Who knows why I care about marriage? I’ve never been the type of woman who has fantasized about the fairy-tale wedding or catching a husband. I’ve had a lot of positive single female role models in my family, so I’ve always thought that it could be possible for me to have a full happy life as a single person.
But, I always sort of assumed that if/when I did meet a wonderful partner, it would lead to marriage. I guess it’s just the value I was raised with.
Does it change anything that we are planning to immigrate to another country in about six months’ time? I sort of thought it would be good to sort these things out before making such a big life change together.
As it turns out, some other potential incompatibilities have surfaced over the last few months. In the interest of working at the relationship and not discarding a good man for the hope of an impossible ideal, I/we have been trying to sort through these snags. I think we are working them out. But it has made me realize that I should probably stress less about HIS problems with marriage, and spend the next while evaluating whether he would actually be the right husband for me.
Thanks for your kind words, again. I especially like the part where you say when I’ll be 32 I’ll still have so many good years ahead. That is refreshingly optimistic.
@ Katie “Does it change anything that we are planning to immigrate to another country in about six months’ time?”
This may change a lot! My family came from my home country to the US on a refugee status, our close friends came on the husband’s student visa, a number of people I know came on the husband’s or wife’s work visa… in all those cases, if the man and the woman hadn’t been legally married, I really cannot think of a way they could’ve both come here together as a couple. There wouldn’t be any legal ground for the other person to come here. I guess it depends on the country and the type of immigration.
“As it turns out, some other potential incompatibilities have surfaced over the last few months”
I was wondering when you said in your letter that you two never had arguments. To me, for a (relatively) new couple, arguments are a way of locating any possible issues and working them out together. If the couple has never or hardly ever argued in the whole time they’re together, then in all likelihood something is being swept under the rug 🙁 Of course by arguing I mean having civil constructive discussions, not screaming matches.
Thanks for the update and good luck with whatever you two decide!
Let me start with this… everyone has the right to their feelings about marriage. If one doesn’t want marriage, fine. If one does, fine. I don’t think people need to necessarily go through a ton of mental gymnastics to explain what they want or don’t want.
As for me, marriage was always a given. A man uninterested in marriage was an immediate dealbreaker for me. I made no apologies for that… in fact, almost four years ago, a decent six-month relationship ended because the guy said he didn’t know if he’d be ready to think about marriage for at least three years (note, I was 30, he was 38). Not marry in three years, but think about marriage. He knew how I felt from the beginning, so my answer wasn’t a surprise. I said no dice. Didn’t give him an ultimatum (I don’t believe in those either), but just said that our beliefs and desires on marriage were incompatible.
So we broke up. I met my husband six months later, he proposed a year after our first date, and we married seven months after our engagement. I sometimes shudder to think that I could have missed out on the love of my life because I was giving that other guy space and a chance… instead of celebrating one year of marriage (and a pregnancy), I’d probably be in the throes of a breakup with that guy who clearly had desires that were incompatible with mine.
Meanwhile, I have a girlfriend who met a guy around the same time I met the first guy. He told her from the beginning that he didn’t believe in marriage (because of what he saw in his family, etc.). She gave him a chance, knowing she wanted to be married. Two years later, she let him go, noticing that he had not only not changed his mind, she had not met one family member of his during that time. She considers it a waste of two years and says she should have paid attention from the beginning to what he said. She’s 37 and back out there trying to date.
My point is simply that if you want marriage Katie, you have every right to desire that and you don’t have to twist yourself and your desires to fit your boyfriend’s.
This comment is very reasonable and and the same time makes me have more hope. There are very smart and open minded people here.
I’m in a similar situation. I’ve been with a guy for about 4 months now and we met on a dating website. On the website I said that I was looking for a family of my own one day, so marriage and kids was a given at some point in the future. On his profile it said he was open to kids and as we got to know each other, come to find out he not only doesn’t want kids, but doesn’t want to get married either. Apparently he said he was open to kids because women didn’t respond as much when he had it listed that he didn’t want any kids. The reason I’m so torn about it is because he’s a great guy. We connect together in every aspect and I feel most comfortable with him. However, emotionally I feel myself keeping my guard up because I don’t know where our relationship stands in the future because of this. It sucks that I finally found a guy that I really connect with only to find out we aren’t on the same page with something as big as marriage and kids. He divorced a few years ago and has it set that women change after marriage. In my opinion, we are all changing with every new experience, whether we realize it or not. Our thoughts and feelings change often as we make mistakes, experience new things and take in new knowledge. I want to be able to grow with someone regardless of that. I also feel like I’m more emotional and he is logical. Not everything can be looked at from a logical perspective. To me, marriage and kids mean family, love, support, and it is priceless. To him it means a financial burden, stress and time consumption. He’s really knit picky about everything and is sort of ocd in my eyes. Anything can set him off. Something as simple as accidentally knocking over a dog’s water dish. He’s not violent at all, just super ocd about anything regarding his property, with his car and electronics on a pedestal. Despite his weird ocd ticks, he’s still very great. We laugh together and enjoy our time together. I’m just really on the fence with whether or not I’m wasting my time since in my eyes, he doesn’t want a future with me. I’ve never been married and it has always been a want for me. I’ve been on the fence with kids, but I don’t like the idea of having the option of bearing kids taken away from me simply because he doesn’t want them. Sigh. Seems I’m in a pickle. 😔
No you’re not.
You just have to make a decision.
Dump him or accept that he won’t ever marry you and you’ll never have kids.
Don’t hang in there hoping he will change. That is how women string themselves along in a relationship and then blame the guy.
Teach a guy to be honest by taking his words at face value and respond in kind.
“Look, Jeff. I like you a lot, but I want to have kids someday. You don’t. I’m going to have to move on. I’m sorry.”
Yeah you’re going to miss him. He’s going to miss you. Odds are there will be a few makeups/breakups before you finally realize that you wasted your time with him.
Save yourself the time of the few makeups/breakups and just stay broken up the first time and resolve to find a man with the same life goal as you: marriage and children.
If he ever changes his mind and you’re still available you can always get back together then. Just don’t hold your breath. Move on. Live.
You’ll find another man to connect with. He’s not the last man on earth that you’ll connect with.
I really do feel you because I have been there, done that. However, you need to just decide if you love him enough to forgo your goals of marriage and perhaps kids. Trust me that there are men out there who you will connect with emotionally–and have the same life goals as you! It’s not a black and white, either/or situation. I’ve dated guys before who I felt a strong connection with, but who didn’t have the same goals as me (only in my case, it was the opposite where they were adamant about wanting 4 kids or more. Holy cow, I don’t think I can have that many! Not to mention, don’t think I want that many even if I could). At the time, I felt the way you did, but made the difficult decision to leave. We were all better off that way.
Lo and behold, then shortly thereafter, I met my boyfriend, who I actually feel even more of an emotional connection with–and also has the same goals as I do. I would have really missed out if I stayed with those guys (with them either resenting me for not having tons of kids, or them trying to force me to have a ton of them against my will. Since they were unwilling to budge on that issue, it wouldn’t have ended happily no matter how much they liked me otherwise). You’ll have to do a lot of soul-searching and just trust that you know what’s best for you.
Thanks for the advice and for responding. Honestly, I didn’t think anyone would, but it felt nice to say what has been bothering me for some time. I agree with both of you. I do feel that I need to sit down and let him know how I’m feeling. I don’t want to keep dragging the relationship on knowing that eventually it will end in disaster because we aren’t on the same page regarding marriage and children. It’s definitely not going to be easy to do and it really does suck because it is so hard to find a guy that I really connect with. Hopefully I’ll have the same luck as you and find my Mr. Right down the line.
Hi Snow – I agree with KE 1000% that you either dump him or accept him on his terms.
However, I must say, he is not a “great guy”.
He lied about something that he knows damn well is extremely important to many women, you included. So in order to get around that, he lied to get what HE wanted, without regard for what YOU or any other woman wanted. In your own words “Apparently he said he was open to kids because women didn’t respond as much when he had it listed that he didn’t want any kids.”
That is no white-lie. That is no “Awwww, there’s no outfit in the world that could make you adorable, dainty butt look big” lie. That is not an OLD dater padding his height by 2 inches to get past the height filters. This isn’t a lie to protect someone from danger, to avoid hurting feelings, or an honest case of him being on the fence about kids.
This is a lie to manipulate women to get what HE wants.
If and when he tells you that he “loves” you, are you going to believe it ? Most men these days won’t lie about being in love to get sex, or up the quantity and quality of sex, but a scant few will. How do you know he’s not that scant few ? After all, if he’d lie about kids to avoid being rejected on that basis, who’s to say he won’t fake being in love, knowing that saying “Hey, I don’t love you, I just want a casual fling” will get him rejected by many women ?
How many other lies are you willing to tolerate from him, that he will tell you in order to get what HE wants, without regard for what YOU want ?
And now he knows he can get you to give up the dream of a “family of your own” with a little bit of lying and a little bit of manipulation, he will surely try to manipulate you into giving up another piece of yourself for his own selfish ends.
“Great guys” don’t lie about important stuff to get what they want. They tell the truth and accept that not everyone will be pleased with their truth.
He reminds me of a former poster on this blog, who I am 95% sure said he had a vasectemy. In any case, he did admit to not wanting any more children, but putting “unsure” in his profile, in order to avoid being rejected by women who want children, because as he put it “He should be enough for a woman” Very callous attitude.
Do you really want to risk your child bearing years on a liar and a manipulator ?
I speak not only as a woman, but also as a mother. My husband broke my heart when he divorced me, but I am so glad that I at least got to experience motherhood. I can’t imagine my life without my dear son. If a family of your own is what you truly want, it is not a dream worth giving up, for the temporary high and that initial rush of “connection”. You are drunk on oxytocin. The oxytocin hangover isn’t pretty.
And I don’t believe that you are “on the fence” about kids. You are already starting to lie to yourself about what you want, in order to justify staying with this man. In your own words ” On the website I said that I was looking for a family of my own one day, so marriage and kids was a given at some point in the future.“, then later “I’ve been on the fence with kids, but I don’t like the idea of having the option of bearing kids taken away from me simply because he doesn’t want them.” You are NOT on the fence, you are losing hope and thinking about settling for a non-marriage, non-family, relationship, that started with a lie.
Believe me, the sting of his lie will wear off eventually, but if you waste your child bearing years on men such as himself, and end up childless, you will never get over the BIG LIE you told YOURSELF, about what you truly wanted.
I’m sorry if I sound harsh, but the words of a stranger on a blog are NOTHING compared to the harshness of reaching menopause with no husband, no children, and realizing that YOU DID IT TO YOURSELF !
As KE said, dump him or accept him. I vote for dump him. And I really hope you do.
SparklingEmerald, I didn’t find it harsh at all. If I’m being totally honest with myself I have begun to imagine myself without marriage or kids simply because it’s not what he wants. And yes, I was really upset at the fact that he lied on his profile in order to seem like a better catch to women. When I confronted him about not wanting kids when his profile clearly said he was open to them, he did what most people who are lying or ashamed do and averted his eyes elsewhere besides on me. I asked him why he expected anything to come out of lying about wanting kids when the woman that he meets will more than likely stop dating him due to him not actually wanting kids. The whole thing just comes back to bite him in the butt eventually unless that woman lied on hers as well. And after getting to know him he comes off as self absorbed at times and acts as if the world revolves around keeping himself happy. I’m pretty sure we’ll end up breaking up, but deep down I know that I deserve to be happy and there is somebody out there who wants the same things that I want. I can hear my Mom yelling at me to never settle for less than what I deserve; a man who will strive to make me happy just as I will him.
Wow, you just opened my eyes, thank you.. I love my boyfriend still but I realise time is going by and we don’t want the same things. Thank you xx
@Goldie #15 – Actually, in the country where we are going common-law relationships have the same legal status as marriage.
Yes, we almost NEVER argued at all in practically the first year of our relationship. I believe that some disagreements/arguments are healthy, but he really doesn’t like confrontation. I’ve adapted to that, more or less.
As others have touched on, I think it is important to realise that “marriage” means very different things to different people. It is not a single,straightforward concept. For some people, marriage is a symbol of their love and commitment, made public to the world. For others, it is a religious concept, to do with being right before God and bound in a spiritual union. For others it is an important legal arrangement offering stability and financial protection.For some, it is a mark of social status, a sort of “belonging to a club”, the ticket to certain social circles which function according to traditional norms. In some cultures, it is a political arrangement to strengthen business arrangements and improve your power base.
Katie, you said “Who knows why I care about marriage?” Well, if you don’t really know the answer to that, I think it would really benefit your relationship for you to work it out in some detail. What does marriage symbolise to you? What does it give you? Because the problem is that whatever it symbolises to you will fester in your mind as “What my partner is NOT offering me”…. when in fact, this may not be the case at all. After working out what marriage means to you, you then need to ask your partner what it symbolises to HIM. These two things may be the same, or they may be totally different. What I’m getting at here is that if marriage to you symbolises “economic protection” or “total commitment” and your boyfriend won’t marry you, then in your mind you are thinking “he doesn’t want to offer me economic protection.”or “he doesn’t want to offer me total commitment”. But if, to your boyfriend, marriage symbolises “a religious bond before God” and THIS is the concept he rejects, you may actually discover that he has no problem offering you economic protectionor total commitment, which is actually what you are looking for. Him saying he doesn’t want to get married imples (in your mind) that he is unwilling to give you those things, when in fact he may be perfectly happy to give you those things, he just doesn’t use the terminology “marriage” to describe it. If however, your concepts of marriage are the SAME, and he doesn’t want it, then in that situation, you DO have a problem. In that case yes, he IS withholding the thing that you want because he doesn’t want to give you that. But at the very least, you will have clarified the situation, which sounds rather ill defined at present.
Helene’s is the most sound piece of advice on this entire board. You have to determine what marriage means to you and what it means to him, and try to see eye to eye. Just like you would with everything else you decide on together.
My fiancé and I met in somewhat unique circumstances. I had just moved away from my hometown to start my adult life on my own in NYC (I was only 25). He had been doing something similar for a few years, in Seattle–nobody in his family understood what kind of life he was trying to lead, because it was just so different. We found each other online, and I believe that that was destined. I think we were both searching for someone who thought the same way we did.
Shortly after I moved to New York, he moved there as well, but a week before that move, my father died tragically. I tried breaking up with my fiancé many times while I was dealing with that situation, because I knew I could not give enough of myself to the relationship. I had to give it to my grief. My career plans were also put on hold. But he was incredibly patient, and knew how much he loved me, even then. He stayed with me because he had faith that someday I would be OK again (and this was after knowing me only three months), and he never stopped supporting me and my dream of making it in New York. And I never stopped supporting him.
The trouble with women who start getting anxious about when a man is going to propose, I find, is that half the time what they’re worried about is how they look to other women. They start getting confused and they start comparing the man they are with to every other man. They wonder, what does it mean about me if my one friend’s husband is doing this, or my other friend’s boyfriend is doing that? It’s almost as though your man is a commodity, the Ken to your Barbie. It’s a rather consumerist way of looking at love.
Because my relationship with my fiancé developed somewhat in a vacuum (i.e., online, away from our families, while dealing with a tragedy, in a city filled with tons of people), we had the luxury to really get to know each other separate from too much outside influence. He is very much an individual and not the type of person who does something unless he truly believes in it. And he has helped me to learn how to be more true to myself, too, even if that self is different from other people. I am more in touch with my inner strength because of holding true to this philosophy and could not survive some of the things I have in my life without it.
It wasn’t until we’d had several years of relative security in our careers, home life and family’s lives, that the pressure started. As I said above, about consumerism, I think people reach a point where they want to stop striving for things and instead sit back and start acquiring things. It’s as if they’ve figured out who they are, so now they are ready to start building their empire. They become attached to things, homes, cars, places–their identity is no longer just their own. And they place that attachment on the person they’re with, too.
Too many women fall into this trap, and then they put pressure on themselves to be a perfect wife or perfect mother and lose themselves in the process. Trying to become a perfect bride is only the beginning.
I’m saying this as someone who bought into the pressure for a few years there. I let people convince me that despite all the odds I had overcome in my life, despite the amazing person I had become, something was just plain missing if my long-term boyfriend, the one who had been there longer than anyone else’s significant other, wasn’t into proposing to me. So I extended that pressure onto him, and it almost ruined our relationship.
To this day, he still doesn’t believe marriage and a wedding are necessary. But you know what else he doesn’t believe is necessary in order to love someone? Lots of things. Tons of things, things without which every single other guy I dated before him would have left me. I’ve been sick, out of work, scared, grieving, 40 pounds overweight, 20 pounds underweight, the list goes on. Not one thing I’ve ever taken away from our relationship or given to it monetarily has changed his unwavering commitment to me.
He is marrying me simply because he knows it will be a nice ceremony, it will make me happy, and he will likely enjoy it as well. But he doesn’t require that ring, and eventually I came to realize that neither do I.
The month he proposed to me was the same in which I’d had a breast cancer scare. Your priorities really shift when your whole life flashes before your eyes. It was in those few weeks that I realized what really mattered, and a ring was not one of those things. And he was happy to see that my love for him was so truly unconditional that I’d decided I’d be happy to just spend my life with him, wedding or no wedding.
this is beautiful
@18 Very interesting thoughts, I hadn’t thought about that. I guess my definition would be the first one your wrote, “marriage is a symbol of their love and commitment, made public to the world.”
I tend to agree with Ruby @4. Based on what I’ve read and seen among friends, if a woman is serious about wanting to get married, she loses her leverage if she lives with her boyfriend. For a guy, living with a girlfriend makes it seem like he’s “sort of” married. He will likely put off the bigger decision (to make it official) for as long as he can. Some couples who live together end up having children, and then the guy may decide he wants to be with someone else, leaving the mother of his children stranded, financially compromised, and likely heart broken.
@Jane Throughout my experience in counselling, all the done researches proved that 2/3 of cohabitating partners split up before the child is 12. A counselor will try to help you getting together and not everyone accepts that counselling is not for them, specially if there is lack of compatibility in. If your do not see a future with your partner, then do not waste your time and youth. This is for both males and females. It will end up sooner or later. Save time and energy and find someone who wants the same things you want. And specially those with kids involved, if you are not getting really want and you feel that you are being let down, then leave as you will resent later in life. You are protecting your kids leaving earlier will have less consequences on them once they are conscious enough to experience the transitional period. Do not let anyone change your concepts, specially for women. Men have their own ways to normalize the abnormal.
Katie can be patient and wait as long as she wishes but if I were her, I wouldn’t live with him prior to marriage (if it ever happens).
The facts are she has a man who doesn’t believe in marriage. Imagine moving in, setting up house, mixing finances, and doing every other conceivable ‘married’ behavior sans the marriage. He’ll likely find even LESS reason to marry then.
He can say, “everything is wonderful the way that it is. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.”
She can still hope that if they decide to have kids, he’ll honor his promise to marry then. But he may not. AND, what if the pregnancy isn’t planned. What if it’s a surprise? He may say, “I don’t want to rush and get married just because you got pregnant. Let’s wait until you have the baby.”
There can always be a reason to wait, and wait, and wait.
The point is: How easy will it be to leave at any of these stages? After years of living together, investing time, home, money and possibly a child too? I’ve seen women find themselves in this situation.
If you want marriage and you’re with a man who isn’t on board, don’t live with him now or even after the ring is on the finger. Wait until you’re actually married.
Regarding marriage – I think there’s something wrong either with the man or the relationship if it doesn’t happen. I believe one hundred percent that men are programmed to marry and if they won’t marry the woman they’re with, something is up. What is it? I haven’t figured that out, but as women, I think we do a disservice by trying.
I will run screaming (and I have) from any new man in my life if he starts telling me he doesn’t want to get married. It indicates to me that he is controlling the future of your relationship without consulting you. That he doesn’t even need to get to know you or experience what a relationship with you is like before he makes up his mind. He’s basically TELLING you, like it or leave it. Doesn’t sound like much of a partnership to me.
My story:
I took the track of waiting for my guy to come around to marriage and I’ll tell you what happened.
We developed a close and loving bond. His family loves me. I’ve been with him during health problems and the death of his father. I feel that I can be my real self with him, ALL my best memories include him and losing him would feel like committing suicide it would feel so wrong and self harming.
The problem? All this has happened over 16 years of waiting. We don’t live together and in fact, I moved three hours away for college 10 years ago and now we commute. There are no plans to live together, there are no plans to marry. Although he claims if I got pregnant that would “force” him to get over his “issues.” (religion is his biggest road block, which I think is super ironic).
I am now 36 years old and suddenly, time no longer feels like it’s in endless supply. I have tried dating in the past, but I am so entangled with him that I probably need major time alone and therapy first just to be a suitable partner to someone new.
I am trying to escape the relationship because I am tired of being alone 95% of the time. I don’t have a real partner or even a real life – I live with one foot in two cities. All the back and forth just adds stress and compromises my ability to handle my responsibilities.
No matter how great you think someone is – there is something extremely important to be said about their ability to be a partner.
Agreed. The best thing I heard once was “No woman has to ‘make or convince’ a man to marry them!!” And that advice came from a man! He said that, when men really want you, they don’t need to be ‘convinced’. They will go to the ends of the earth.. who wants to be married to someone that they had to ‘convince’ to marry them? He will likely be resentful of this and mention it down the line.
Man’s natural instinct is SUPPOSED TO BE to want to protect, provide for, and love a woman. Men that do not have this desire to have some issues within themselves that they need to A. Work on or B. Stay single.
EA, I have little doubt that a vast majority of psychology research refutes your contention that men are programmed to marry. That sounds more like the point of view of an entitled woman who’s trying to pathologize men who don’t affirm her entitlement. Psychology and everyday experience tell us that people are a combination of nature and nurture. In this context, nurture is a person’s individual experience with marriage, divorce, relationship dynamics, religion, life goals, and so on.
Each person is an individual and is free to enter a pair-bonding relationship on his or her own terms. The only obligation is to be clear from the beginning about one’s intentions and expectations.
Another thought: Marriage is not the most important thing to me. I was unhappily married for many years, and as much as I want to great relationship in my life, getting married again, in my 50’s, isn’t on the top of my list. However, if I met the right man and marriage was really important to him, then of course, I would marry him. These choices and trade offs come up all the time in life. Katie’s boyfriend knows how much she wants to get married and he’s not stepping up. That could be an answer unto itself.
Let me get this straight.
1) The guy has “such a distorted view of marriage that he’s given up on it as an institution.” 2) The guy is psychologically damaged because he doesn’t want to get married. 3) EMK came around and got married, and all guys are like EMK, so this guy will come around and get married, too.
This is a whole lot of BS to dump on a guy who isn’t even speaking for himself here.
Yeah, you got that completely wrong, Dan. The guy DOES have a negative view of marriage from his childhood. You can act like that won’t negatively impact his worldview, but, by and large, everything that children see when they have poor parental role models negatively impacts their worldview. So there are your first two points. As for the third point, that if I got married that every man will want to get married, that’s obviously not the case.
What is the case is that a man is more likely to get married when it’s on HIS terms, because he’s built a life with an indispensable woman who gets him, loves him, appreciates him and isn’t asking him to change. And if he moves in with the OP, has an amazing life, and wants kids – and the only way for him to do it is to get married, then I predict he’s going to get married. What exactly is wrong with that line of reasoning?
@Katie,
I’ve dealt with women who “didn’t like confrontation.” I tried to accommodate this. It led to disaster. If you avoid talking about small problems, they will become BIG problems later. One woman in particular didn’t like confrontation because she grew up in a family that couldn’t have civil, calm discussions. Maybe your BF is like that, but its something that will have to change for there to be long term success.
It’s also sad that so many women feel like they have to beg men to marry them. Begging men, issuing ultimatums and the like are recipes for disaster. If you pressure a man into marrying you, he will eventually resent it and it will likely lead to divorce. A man has to want to marry you. If a man doesn’t want to marry you, but marriage is important to you, you should end the relationship. Find a man who does want to marry you. Otherwise, you will never be happy. Deciding whether marriage is in your future is a major deal, and I don’t think it is something you can compromise on.
@EA 22
If a man tells you he doesn’t want to get married he is telling you his boundaries regarding his relationship with you. This is not about him controlling you, it is about telling you what he believes he has to offer. It is up to you to accept what he offers or leave. I am sorry you lost as much time as you have understanding this. Now that you have, you will move on if you want that.
For some people a three hour commute relationship might be acceptable for a few years if you have a definite plan to end it (the commute part or the relationship part), but certainly not an ongoing 10 years, because it does impede growing roots outside of your relationship.
No matter how great you think someone is — there is something extremely important to be said about their ability to be a partner.
That is very well said. I add that what each person needs for a partner will be different depending on life circumstance and individual preference so there is no single partnering-ability litmus test.
@Gem 21
In many places when you “move in, set up house, mix finances, and do every other conceivable ‘married’ behavior sans the marriage” you become married in the eyes of the law with all the rights, responsibilities and headache it takes to get out. All that is missing is the rite of passage ceremony. I believe there is value in that ceremony; the promise before friends and, if you are religious, God, but many married people do not.
Re living or not living together before marriage, I’m biased in the other direction – we couldn’t really live together before marriage, so we didn’t. We took vacations together, visited each other when he was in school and I worked in another city, but that was about it. We moved in together a few months before getting married, but by then we were already past the point of no return — we’d agreed to get married a long time ago, he’d relocated for me and there was no way for either of us to back out. Pretty much as soon as we started living together and running a household together, I realized that we were so incompatible, and our ideas on how things should work in a family were so different, and our ability to negotiate and compromise so non-existent, it was never going to work. We kept trying for eighteen years, but never really got things to work the way a healthy marriage should. So from my experience, I’d rather be missing a ring on my finger than be stuck in a bad marriage with no easy way to get out. And there’s really no way to tell how the person is going to handle the “domesticity” until the two of you are living it.
Ok, here goes the rant.
Evan, “become indispensable to him?” If she’s no indispensable after 4+ years, she never will.
I always wonder what women who agree to open-ended living together arrangement are thinking, it just makes my blood boil when i hear these stories – “oh we’ve been living together for X years but he doesn’t want to marry me”. Honey, why would he? Why??
Of course he’s never gonna put a ring on her finger, he already got her where he wants her – she is a de facto wife and provides domesticality and regular sex (hopefully) and financial help through shared expenses, yet he has no responsibilities towards her whatsoever. He can dump her like a hot potato if anything goes “wrong”. And, because she wants marriage so badly, and she gets advice such as this one – to become “indispensable” – she will be so much more eager to please and get his approval to get that ring, that he will definitely enjoy it wholeheartedly!
To make it absolutely clear – the OP should’ve never moved in. Never. It is her call what to do now, but one way to figure out how much he really is into her is to distance herself. Not saying move out completely. Get a share house. Go on a long vacation w/o him. Start going out more with friends. Remind him that he doesn’t own her and that she won’t always be there waiting for him necessarily. She’ll have her answer soon enough – it may not be the answer she likes, but better that than finding herself disillusioned, bitter and single at the age of 32.
@Stacy Doesn’t it make sense that she could do the same thing to him? Leave him when things go “wrong”? In eessence, what you’re suggesting is to leave temporarily and make him think she does not need him to test the waters. I just think that’s bad advice rather than actually talking about it pretend you are someone you aren’t if these behaviors aren’t normal just to see how he reacts. It’s manipulative.
If the kind of marriage is one where one partner can even begin to start thinking they “own” the other–as you suggest she needs to remind him that he doesn’t–who would want to marry anyway? Your idea of marriage is gross and why people don’t want to sign a contract in the first place. Because you sign away half of your life in the process if people decide to start manipulating each other. Why would this guy want to be with her if she suddenly stopped showing interest in being with him? Silly.
I believe in love holding two people together, making the decision to love someone everyday of your life. Marriage is important to me but the legal contract never has been. When I thought about marriage as a child it never meant my parents had to do this had to do that had to do anything because I wasn’t exposed to the perversion of marriage as a contract. If love is not enough then fine, it obviously is scary trusting someone to invest time and effort in with no guarantee that they’ll get screwed over if they decide they don’t want to love you anymore, but then again maybe that will actually give you an incentive to maintain a healthy relationship.
And if you do spend time together and things don’t work out without a marriage, you can rest assured that a majority of other people that decided to marry, ended poorly too, even with the contract…
Helen #18
While marriage may mean different things to different people, I think it is important to recognize what it ACTUALLY, factually means in this country where we live. Simply put, it means no freedom to bail when you want to and to do whatever the hell you want. If your spouse gets hit by a bus you can’t just leave them sitting in an empty apartment in a wheelchair and move on with your single life. Nope, no such luck. If you want to take out half of your 401K and spend it on gambling – surprise you can’t without your spouse’s consent. You can’t change your name without your spouse signing off on that. You can not take your kids on a vacation abroad w/o your spouse signing off. There’s limits on how you can will your assets. There’s so many limitations that come with marriage, that all this fluff about “statement to the world” and other stuff is really secondary. Personally, I don’t give rat’s ass about any statements to the world or any of those things, what concerns me is the actual implications of marriage. And I am a woman.
I think a lot of women just tend to romanticize marriage and make it 99% about feelings, while men are more acutely aware of the actual implications, and therefore they marry only when they feel they have to and they are massively into you. All other b/s such as “don’t believe in marriage” is just a boatload of BS. It is marriage. What is there to believe in. If you just don’t want commitments and limitations that come with it, or you feel the woman in front of you is not worth it – just say so.
Here’s a benefit of marriage that my dad received: Survivor’s benefits when my my mom died and he became a widower with three school aged kids. That money meant we could stay in our home (my mom earned a little more than half of the household income) and we could still participate in sports, school activities, and take the occasional trip to Disneyland or the beach. If my parents had decided that they didn’t need that “piece of paper,” my father would not have received those benefits.
It seems that on any blog post discussing marriage, there are a few men that always post a comment that goes something like, “Marriage does not benefit men because after a woman divorces a man, he will lose all his money plus his kids.” The problem isn’t marriage; the problem is who these men married. If a man is so concerned about financial losses if a divorce should occur, maybe he should date women who have solid careers they want to continue in. (Ironically, these men usually have nothing but disdain for career women) Or maybe they should put aside the all important characteristic of “She’s really hot!” for a moment and really look at the woman’s character. My beautiful-when-young sister dumped her husband after many years of marriage, and yes, he got screwed and he didn’t deserve it. But the fact that my sister was selfish, not interested in working, and has an entitlement complex a mile wide was right there to see. He now admits hetotally ignored all of the warning signs.
EA – no one is “programmed” to marry. Where did you get that idea from anyway? Secondly, there are plenty of couples out there who are great partners to each other, but aren’t – for various reasons – married. Furthermore, I have known married couples with situations fairly similar to yours. One person got a job in another city. They rarely see each other. And the connection has weakened over time. Even if the guy you are with agreed to marry, you’d still have all the other issues to face. Getting married will not solve all your problems. That’s a fantasy.
@nathan: Yes! This. Again, we’re so focused on marriage being the endgame. I just want to remind everyone that it doesn’t have to be. And it doesn’t imply a soddy lack of commitment if you don’t do it. Eesh. Been there, done that. Might do it again but meantime? I’m enjoying every second of my incredible non-married relationship (and no, we don’t live together since we both have houses from our previous marriages). 🙂
There is more than one way to be happy and committed! 🙂
Now you’re talking! If you’ve been married before, the idea of getting into something yet again that may be difficult to get out of is very unsettling. I don’t believe I would co mingle assets with someone else (again) even with a prenup – I’ve seen friends have 2nd marriages fail and go through incredibly painful experiences with yet another costly failed relationship. Why get married all for the label of “Married”? I personally think that if you want to raise a family then it makes perfect sense to tie the knot – its better for children. But if that is not your goal – then why stress over it?
petitlapin has a great set up – maybe someday they will change it, maybe not. Sounds like they are comfortable and enjoying one another as is. Good for you!
[email protected]: 1) That’s what she says. You know, the one who wants to marry a guy who doesn’t want to marry her. 2) Who said anything about his having poor parental role models? Even she didn’t say that. 3) Unlike you and this woman, I don’t try to psychoanalyze folks from my armchair. As others have pointed out, this idea that people (especially men) are scarred animals who aren’t able to “sustain relationships” because of something that happened in childhood is both overblown and simplistic. People are a lot more complicated than that, and we develop our own unique “world views” using lots of different inputs. Most of which are our own thoughts and desires, not our parents’. We aren’t hapless pieces of clay in their hands.
The end of the story is this: He doesn’t want to get married. Those are his terms. Why don’t you and the girlfriend just leave him alone? This seems like it’s her problem and yours, not his.
Dan, this is my JOB. If you don’t like the way I do my job, go find a blog that you DO enjoy.
Hi Katie,
I feel there are certain genuine reasons that individuals may oppose marriage that is beyond their personal experiences, for example people desiring marriage equality with the gay community. If your boyfriend’s childhood experiences are still personally affecting him and his marriage-views and he can’t differentiate your relationship from his parents’, you are in a different kind of situation.
I have seen people in your situation, where one person is ready to commit while the other is on the fence, and the usual course of outcomes. If the ready-to-commit partner is patient, the other person eventually comes around… be it months or years. I saw one guy promise his girlfriend a ring “in the spring”, “when he’s saved up the cash”, “well, he just bought a house so soon”… and after 2 years and a lot of distress, she got the ring and is happily planning her wedding. I’ve seen other individuals – men and women – lay on too much pressure, too many threats, that the other person just bails.
Just accept that you and your boyfriend are on different timelines. Would you want to date a 21-year-old? Probably not, because he wouldn’t be on your timeline. And not only is your boyfriend not on your timeline, he doesn’t know what timeline he is on.
Threats are pointless. Accept your situation, enjoy your relationship, and know that it may or may not go anywhere, or leave.
Nathan & Dan: Thanks for the guy point of view. I get what you’re saying and agree.
Well, it seems that the consensus on this one is that the guy probably won’t marry her, but she doesn’t lose by sticking it out a bit longer just in case he changes his mind.
I believe people who don’t believe in marriage (for whatever reasons) have the same rights to be heard and understood than people who do believe in marriage. And I do not understand why it is always the ones who do want to get married who should win in this power struggle. I should probably add that some day, I myself wish to get married because my man does believe in marriage.
One of my best friend had been going out with her boyfriend for 7 years. He did not believe in marriage whereas she did, very strongly. However, as she said it herself, she “loved him, and she wanted to be with him for life, everything else is icing on the cake”.
They had (and still have) a great relationship based on love and respect for each other, and acceptance for who they are. She had given up on the idea of getting married altogether (but she was happy and did not resent him: she understood that he could see the world differently and still be a good man).
Well, completely unexpectedly, after 8 years, he proposed to her…an extremely unexpected and romantic proposal that he had been preparing secretly for 6 months!!! That was 5-6 years ago, and they now have 2 little boys.
When you ask him, my friends’s boyfriend says that he still thinks that marriage is like being in prison, but he adds that it is a great prison that you choose and enjoy because you have chosen it for your own reasons. tHen again, he adds that preparing the marriage proposal and knowing how happy he’d made her is a grat souvenir that he is going to cherish for a lifetime…
People do what they want to do. If you love him and he is a great person, accept him as he is. Love him for who he is. He will love you for who you are in return. There is no greater gift on this earth. Everything else is icing on the cake.
Soul – all it means is that the man who doesn’t want to get married to the OP is going to lose the woman of his dreams and the ability to have kids with her.
That’s not a judgment. That’s a fact. It’s very hard to convince a woman who wants children to have kids out of wedlock because “he doesn’t believe in marriage”. She’ll find someone else to marry her. He’ll have a harder time forging a successful nuclear family unless he rethinks his stance on marriage.
Personally, I don’t give a crap who does what in one’s personal life, but marriage is a signifier of stability and a commitment to the commitment itself. And one who is afraid of that, who wants an “out”, is probably not an ideal lifetime partner for a woman who is looking for someone to be present to raise children.
So true. I’m in a similar situation and I DON’T WANT TO WAIT ANYMORE. I just want to give the ring back because I feel he’s disregarding my feelings and not taking me seriously at all. I had even made an appointment at the county clerk to get the marriage license. Then I cancelled it and he was okay with that. I’m tired of being played around like this. If he wants me to wait he’s going to have to put a chastity device on or something, because apparently he’s not needing me sexually as much. That I will not stand for.
I feel this rings so true…”marriage is a signifier of stability and a committment to the committment itself. My boyfriend and I have a blended family together. We bought a house together (joint mortage) and he made a substantial down payment and I have the substantial income to make the monthly mortgage payments. Those are the important financial details. We have an amazing relationship and he and I are both very committed to each other. However, he has divorced once and I have divorced twice. He thinks that marriage has no value and I disagree. I worry about the legalities, such as, if one of us dies in a tragic accident or becomes severely injured. His ex-wife is horrendous when it comes to money matters. If marriage is just a piece of paper that adds to the (already present) committment then why is he holding back? This has led me to become resentful. I puts a thought of “why” in my mind. I try not to entertain that since we have a great relationship but it is hard to shake. Nevertheless, the resentment has reared its ugly head recently and I fear that our differences on the idea of marriage will be our ruin. I have it all right now…the home, the job, the handsome man, the kids, etc and this one thing is turning me sour no matter how hard I try to ignore it. It does…it means something. It means something to me. This is definitely multi-faceted and not a traditional situation…I get that. However, I really don’t get my boyfriends logic. Not at this point.
Soul – you’ve said it beautifully. Thank you. 🙂
As EMK says, though, if the OP is really, truly set on the idea of marriage as more important than the actual relationship she has with this particular guy – then that is her right. She can go find a great guy to marry her. She’s young and will have loads of options, I’m sure. Lots of guys would probably want to marry her.
But if she pushes the marriage there’s a chance she will lose *this* guy. Is that a big deal? Depends on what’s more important. Like you said, for me, after 10 years of marriage, I no longer see it as the absolute sign of total commitment. Ha, not at all. 🙂 The relationship I have with the man I’m with is more important than the idea of getting married to him (but that’s just me). I ended up being less committed in my heart in my actual marriage than I am to my now-boyfriend (and we’ve been together a few years now).
As you say, Soul, I have met someone who is a great person and I accept that he probably wants to get remarried even less than I do. This love? For me, there’s no greater gift. Everything else is just semantics. It’s indeed, as you say, icing on the cake. 🙂
Soul #36
In my opinion, a guy who thinks marriage is like “being in prison”, but enjoys the benefits that cohabitation provides has no valid point and his moral character is qustionable and so NO he does not deserve to “be heard”. If marriage is “prison” – be a lifetime bachelor – that is a respectful lifestyle choice. But actually living with a woman, having kids with her but no marriage? I’ve got a word for it: douchbag. He wants to have his cake and eat it too. I guarantee you that he’s got it aaall figured out in his head.
Men are not “scared” or “don’t believe in” such things like being married, commitment, responsibility. They just chose not to give them, because they can get all they want without giving those things in return.
# EMK – I do agree that marriage is a commitment to the commitment. That’s a very smart definition!
# Stacy
This guy did marry my friend. So I do not see why you are so angry in your answer. I am afraid my English phrasing might have misled you, I am sorry.
I just had a breakoff with my boyfriend. We were together for 3 years he was not ready for commitment, i tried my best to make this relation work but had to left him when he said you go and get married to someone else and we will still be in relation.I felt disgusted with this man.
Personally I don’t totally agree with the following statement in the post…“…marriage is a symbol of their love and commitment, made public to the world…”
I think as long you are happy with each other in the relationship you have that should be enough. You are committing to eachother with love and wanting to be together…
So why (as stated earlier) should you make a commitment to a commitment?
All that matters is being happy together and hopefully have some lovely little ones in that loving relationship too.
@Soul: your friend’s story is very much like my friend then, except her boyfriend/partner proposed after 5yrs. After being married, he doesnt think of it as a “prison” though. He thinks that it was the best decision he’s ever made 🙂
[email protected]: If he doesn’t want to get married and she does, maybe she isn’t the woman of his dreams. As other people on here have said, I don’t get it why he has to be made wrong because he doesn’t want to get married, or why people are making the assumption that he does but he just needs to get around to realizing that. Doesn’t no mean no for men, too?
And there are many examples of stable family forms that don’t involve the American definition of marriage. In Scandinavia only about 35% of couples are married, and childrearing seems to work pretty well there. A lot of sociologists are saying that this is the direction the US is headed in because already most kids in the US are not raised in homes with 2 biological parents, only about 25% are. That’s not my opinion or my values talking–that’s the US Census. So don’t hate on me or tell me to go find some other blog just because I’m pointing out something that we all already know but that kinda goes against what you’re saying.
Because, Lara, as he said: he loves her and wants to have kids. In fact, he said he would marry her to make that happen. You caught that part, yes? And, as I pointed out a few posts ago, there aren’t many women that are going to stick around to be a “baby mama” for a guy who won’t put a ring on her finger.
As a result, he doesn’t get the family that he craves. Which is why SHE has greater options than he has. She’ll be able to find another marriage/kids-minded man. He may have a harder time finding a woman who’s willing to bring children into the world without a formal commitment.
This is not about what I believe, Lara. And saying that only 25% of families contain two biological parents doesn’t negate the fact that this is the chosen and optimal way to bring kids into the world. The fact that 50% get divorced and 25% are irresponsible enough to have kids out of wedlock doesn’t make the case that the OP should just give up on the idea of marriage, like they do in Scandinavia.
I realize this is a bit of an old thread, but in light of the more recent post on marriage and stability, I wanted to offer a response, especially to this comment: “In fact, if the state of the U.S. is any indication, the destruction of the nuclear family has been devastating.”
I’m assuming you’re referring to social decay, dysfunction, crime, etc. IMO, this is a false and rather dangerous argument which is constantly being parroted by right wingers who, as Marc Lamont Hill once put it, engage in victim blaming by suggesting that it’s possible for individuals to “marry their way out of poverty.” However, there is an abundance of scholarly literature by sociologists, political scientists, and economists which suggests that broken homes are the dependent, as opposed to independent variable in this equation, causeed not by alternative life styles or subcultures which somehow only affect certain margimalized communities, but rather by labour market variables such as interest rate policy, ghettoization induced by capital flight out of urban centres (among other things), deindustrialization, mass incarceration, etc. These are the underlying factors.
I’ll also repeat what I said in the more recent thread: in order to demonstrate that marriage has an inherent stabilizing effect on families, or is a more stable environment to raise children, you would need a highly controlled study of similar couples which holds all other relevant variables (such as financial and economic stability, level of committment measured using criteria other than marriage, education level, etc) constant.
Katie: I was satisfied with Evan’s response until you chimed in again with the comment that you and your BF plan to move to a different country in a few months.
Yes, that does change things dramatically; not just in the legal sense that Goldie mentioned. You will be losing your community, your network of support, and the comfortable, familiar ways of doing things. Even those who make a relatively mild expatriate move, such as from the US to Canada, struggle a great deal for several years. You will be much more dependent on your boyfriend physically, emotionally, and financially. Even if he is a good man, he may resent this. Likewise, he will experience similar struggles, and it is likely to place a huge strain on the relationship.
You didn’t go into details about why you’re making this move, but if it is for the sake of this guy, you should seriously reconsider. The last thing you want is to break up while living in a new, unfamiliar country. If there’s no serious commitment beforehand, I hate to say it, but I’d force the issue in this case (otherwise, it’s never recommended to force issues). He’ll be able to give you a definitive answer, and you may or may not experience some difficulties, but at least you will come to peace about it.
Good luck.
“The fact that 50% get divorced and 25% are irresponsible enough to have kids out of wedlock doesn’t make the case that the OP should just give up on the idea of marriage, like they do in Scandinavia.” Wow, you sound like a right wing, social conservative with that statement Evan. In general, I’m noticing a deep lack of compassion towards this guy in this conversation, and towards anyone who questions marriage for any reason – even if they end up getting married eventually.
In my opinion, it might actually be those who question getting married, and really think about why they are doing it, that will have the best marriages. I fully support the OP’s desire for marriage, but wonder how much she’s actually thought about what it means for her, beyond the conventional platitudes like demonstrating commitment, etc. I also think the OP is right to wonder about her boyfriend’s resistance to marriage because he might – I stress might – be stringing her along for a ride that ends in weak commitment. But instead of dumping him tomorrow, or jumping to conclusions, this seems like the time to really explore what’s going on. To ask questions of herself and learn more about her boyfriend’s viewpoint.
Another thing I question is the idea that she’ll be able to find another man who is marriage minded. Maybe, maybe not. There aren’t any guarantees in life. And frankly, if she loves this guy as she says she does, it’s worth making more effort to really understand him on this issue before making a final decision. And if he loves her as he seems to, then he will be willing to really consider what’s truly behind his decision to marry her at some point.
Nathan – this post just pushes your buttons because YOU aren’t sure you want to get married. Therefore, if I question the wisdom of having kids outside marriage, I’ve suddenly become Rick Santorum, instead of the fiercely liberal guy that I really am. Perhaps this is why conservatives snipe at us – because saying things like “marriage is good for the stability of the nuclear family” becomes a controversial statement, when, in fact, it’s merely common sense. Don’t let your bias at being contrarian or being against marriage affect your good sense, my friend.
Because for all you doubt our 29-year-old OPs inability to find a marriage oriented man (yeah, that new world order is coming FAST!), the fact remains: the percentage of people who have ever been married by the age of 55 is still 95%. Marriage isn’t a good idea for everybody, but let’s not suggest for a half second that it’s obsolete.
For people who want to raise kids in a stable, two-parent environment, it’s still the best bet. Ask the homosexuals who want to get married if it’s silly and antiquated.
I’m not attacking people who don’t want to get married, but I won’t back down on the fact that marriage is good for families and that there are no shortage of marriage minded men for our original poster.
I’m afraid I don’t know one single couple who claim to be content without marriage where both people actually are. In fact, those relationships usually end very badly, even after houses are bought, pets are adopted and years upon years are spent. In the cases I’ve seen, the woman is usually pretending it’s okay, yet even when she is given all the trappings, there is something about the validation of that commitment that reigns supreme and over shadows everything else.
Look at it in terms of having a job. When looking for a job, most people realize they will dedicate a great deal to their employer. So they typically look for a company with a reputation for being loyal to employees, promoting from within, good benefits, so they aren’t left high and dry after giving it their all for years. Now think of a job where you are welcome to come and give it your all, in fact, it’s expected, but say you’re a contract employee. You work as hard, maybe harder and maybe do a better job than your coworkers, but you don’t get benefits and you’re never sure when the contract will end.
Time passes. You don’t get offered a permanent position and so you aren’t eligible for promotion. However, workers all around you are getting hired on. No one on earth would argue that you should keep plugging away at a job with no commitment to keep you around and no rewards or benefits. Yet people who “just don’t believe in marriage” ask that of their partners every day. Furthermore, they act as if they just can’t understand why it would bother anyone. Feelings are invalidated and one person’s wants/needs are more important than the other person’s.
Another interesting little phenomenon is this. It’s usually NEVER the marrigae phobic person who walks away. They hang on just as long as they can, in their pseudo marriage, placing all the onus on the other person. To me, that says something significant.
I would advise anyone wouldn’t consider marrying the person they are seeing, to really evaluate whether or not you are using that person or biding time until someone you’re actually sure of stumbles across your path. I know I’ll get a bunch of disagreements, but I think that’s what’s going on most of the time in those situations.
I also want to clarify that I am NOT referring to the early part of the relationship where hopefully, both people are be earnest and open minded.
I wholly agree with what I’ve read on this blog about most men honestly trying to figure out what they want as opposed to just using people.
I even think in the case of the OP, if her BF is sincere, she can maintain in that situation. I would be a little skeptical of his intentions though. He could just be trying to appease her.
But that brings up another point. “I’m not getting married,” is not a boundary to me, it’s stating one person’s preference for the trajectory of the relationship. The problem is, it’s a definitive regarding a situation that BOTH parties are supposed to have a say in. That’s what I meant by controlling. When uttered at the beginning of a relationship, is an inappropriate as “what do you want to name our kids?” It is not the equivalent of “I will leave if you ever hit me.” That’s a boundary.
That said, I don’t have to stick around for that outcome. I was only remarking that it seems like a controlling attitude. It’s also kind of stupid in my book because you really don’t know if you’re talking to the woman who will steal your heart and inspire you to reconsider. Notice I said inspire – not convince.
This post (and also EMK’s reaction) is living proof that things like marriage, religion, politics etc… are mostly personal opinion/values. As a consequence, I believe that there is no point in trying to convince others: just keep your opinion for yourself or, if you want to share what your own personal take on the issue is, just share it for the sake of sharing/ getting to know each other better.
So just to share, here’s my personal opinion:
– I do want to get married;
– I fully understand people who do not want to get married;
– I know for a fact that marriage is NOT a proof os stability for children (tons of research worldwide show that the stability actually stems from the COMMITMENT, but marriage is not the only, nor necessarily the better, form of commitment)
– I could live with my man and have children without getting married;
– I CANNOT live with sb who does not understand that getting married is just a personal value and NOT a value above others;
– Similarly, I cannot live with anybody who thinks that their religion/culture is better than others’.
In short, being openminded (i.e. my definition of it) is an absolute non-negotiable for me. Getting married is not. That’s just who I am.
“In short, being open minded is an absolute non-negotiable for me. Getting married is not. That’s just who I am.”
Beautifully said.
[email protected]: You read what I said wrong. Only 25% of all children in the US are living with both biologicial parents, acc to the US Census. That means that 75% are not. That also means that we are already there.
No, Lara. I heard you loud and clear. I said that just because we are already there 50% are divorced and 25% are having kids out of wedlock – doesn’t mean that this is a successful paradigm for raising children. In fact, if the state of the U.S. is any indication, the destruction of the nuclear family has been devastating. To say that because most families are failures that therefore it’s a good idea to forgo a traditional nuclear family is simply a fallacy. Go try your illogic on someone else.
[email protected]: You’re right about this: “marriage is NOT a proof os stability for children (tons of research worldwide show that the stability actually stems from the COMMITMENT, but marriage is not the only, nor necessarily the better, form of commitment).” Glad you made that point. I’ve read about family systems extensively, and it’s a bit annoying that this 1950s idea of the nuclear family as being a superior family system is still getting air play. It’s not even the way most families have been structured throughout time. Read Stephanie Koontz on the history of marriage (and family). This mom-pop-biological-kids-unit-under-one-roof has only been in play for the last generation or so. I really wish people would lose that myth.
Allen #26,
friends a“In many places when you “move in, set up house, mix finances, and do every other conceivable ‘married’ behavior sans the marriage” you become married in the eyes of the law with all the rights, responsibilities and headache it takes to get out. All that is missing is the rite of passage ceremony. I believe there is value in that ceremony; the promise before and, if you are religious, God, but many married people do not.”
Katie believes there is value in that ceremony too, which is why she should find a man feels the same. If it’s not this guy, maybe another. I believe it would be easier for her to leave, if it’s not this guy, if she doesn’t become a common law sudo wife in the meantime.
Nathan #47
Evan said: “The fact that 50% get divorced and 25% are irresponsible enough to have kids out of wedlock doesn’t make the case that the OP should just give up on the idea of marriage, like they do in Scandinavia.”
You said: “Wow, you sound like a right wing, social conservative with that statement Evan.”
Evan sounds like a “right-wing social conservative” as if it’s a bad thing ;), because he doesn’t think Katie should give up on the idea of marriage.
Look, the guy doesn’t believe in/want marriage and may never. It doesn’t make him psychologically flawed, but it doesn’t make his ideas about marriage more highly evolved either. Or something Katie should bend to just to be with him.
Lara, that is a very surprising statistic of only 25% of American kids with both parents present in the home: Will you please provide the source for that? Based on my own experience, most of the kids who go to school with my kids have two-parent families, but it could be a midwestern phenomenon.
No, EMK, you still aren’t reading it right. I am NOT saying that 25% of people are having children out of wedlock–where are you even getting that from. I am saying that 75% of children DO NOT LIVE WITH BOTH BIOLOGICAL PARENTS. That means that 75% of children in the US live with one biological parent alone, with neither biological parent, with one biological parent and a step parent, with foster parents, with extended family, or in an institutional setting. Only 25% of children come home to mom and pop. This is not a statistic that discusses whether or not the parents were married when the child was conceived.
This is the end of this circular conversation, Lara, and because it’s my blog, I get the last word:
We AGREE that only 25% of kids come home to mom and pop. (Although I don’t know where you got this from, I’ll take your word for it.). So what does that mean for the 75% who don’t? It means that the parents are either divorced, widowed, or never married. And doing some crude statistics, I said that if 50% were divorced, then 25% were never married.
In fact, a quick Google search reveals that “nearly 40 percent of babies born in the United States in 2007 were delivered by unwed mothers”.
All in all, Lara, you can say that this new status quo is indicative of progress. I, for one, believe that two-parent households are better environments for kids. And it’s not that it’s IMPOSSIBLE for two unmarried people to stay together for 40 years and raise kids, it’s that there’s not a very strong track record of that.
If you don’t want kids, don’t get married.
If you do want kids, the institution and the commitment to the commitment of marriage takes on even greater importance.
I say this not as a married guy – since I’ve only been married for 3 years. I say this as a guy who sees the amount of time and attention that a child needs from its parents.
One final study says: “Research clearly demonstrates that family structure matters for children, and the family structure that helps the most is a family headed by two biological parents in a low-conflict marriage.” Why this would be hard to accept is beyond me. Doesn’t mean that there aren’t possible alternative success stories, but that if you’re trying to build a successful family, you might want to start with a healthy marriage.
Oh, and by the way, further digging indicates that your numbers aren’t quite right. One look at the CDC report from 2001-2007 shows that 48.4% of families are nuclear with tons of variations for the other 51.6% (3.1% cohabiting, 13.6% single mom, 19% extended families, 8.7% blended families, etc). The numbers for black families show only 20% nuclear families, which pulls the overall number downward. Feel free to look at this at the CDC website if you want to doubt the veracity of my claims.
And go read a book like Predictably Irrational or How We Decide to see how even if I present you facts that contradict your beliefs, you’re still going to want to believe in your original premise even stronger. That’s human nature. But don’t sit here and tell me that the CDCs facts about nuclear families leading to healthier lives for children are misleading. They’re not promoting marriage. They’re simply reporting what they see.
My loyalty, too, is to the truth. It just so happens that committed, stable families are good for kids and it just so happens that I am descended from a committed, stable family and am part of another one with my wife and baby. This doesn’t mean that I’m better. This doesn’t mean I look down on those who don’t have wives and kids. It does mean that my marriage is at the heart of how we’re raising our daughter, and that studies seem to agree with my take on things. Finally, just because individuals have not been married and raised healthy kids doesn’t mean that this is indicative of a “better” way of doing things – no more than George Burns smoking cigars for 80 years is a guide to optimal health. So please, no more arguments in this space about the virtues of marriage for the sake of the kids. Stability is good for kids. Case closed. (And NO, I don’t think that EVERY marriage is the bastion of stability, so please don’t go about making that claim against me either…)
If you have a post on the original subject, feel free to continue. If you don’t, I’m shutting this one down. I have work to do.
Gem “Look, the guy doesn’t believe in/want marriage and may never. It doesn’t make him psychologically flawed, but it doesn’t make his ideas about marriage more highly evolved either. Or something Katie should bend to just to be with him.” Of course, I never said that his ideas were better. In fact, I specifically said she should wonder about his motives and have some serious conversations to get at what his whole story is. But hey – if it’s easier to flip my comments into black and white statements, have at it.
Also, as Lara pointed out, the nuclear, mother and father led family is NOT a traditional form. It’s a product of the latter half of the industrial revolution. And I would argue that the families which do the best are families with lots of interaction with grandparents, uncles, aunts, and good friends. My own experience was that without my mother’s parents, as well as some good-hearted neighbors, m sister and I would have had a much worse time of it. Half of my childhood, my parents were together. The other half, they were divorced. It always made a difference that many others were helping out, taking care of us, putting significant chunks of time in.
Now, I say all that partly because it grates on me how flimsy the word traditional has become these days, but more to the point, because I still wonder about the OP’s sense of what marriage is about. Do her and her boyfriend have good enough connections with their parents and extended family to help raise children? How much of the worry is tied to fears of having to raise a child alone, or mostly alone? I think those are very legitimate fears by the way, but am trying to expand the idea that marriage is not solely about your partner. Unless you’ve cut off ties with your family, they’re part of the deal. Sometimes a large part of the deal, for better or worse.
In the end, I’m not – as Evan and other might think – against marriage. I’m pro a diversity of options. There’s a difference. Furthermore, given the OP’s desire to get married, I’m trying to leave comments that perhaps could aid her in finding the information she needs to make a decision about being with her boyfriend. That’s all.
nathan, I understand your viewpoint, even as a married woman. Modern American society has made a monster of marriage in some ways. We put it on a pedestal – we expect SO MUCH from it that it is nearly impossible for any human being to fulfill these expectations, and when they don’t, the fall is spectacular – custody fights, lawsuits, bankruptcy, the whole mess.
This being the current situation, I can understand why some people want to avoid marriage entirely, even if they didn’t have tumultous upbringings, I can also understand why others like you are asking, “Can’t we come up with other options for loving relationships that have neither such high expectations nor such dreadful fallout?”
As a society, I don’t think we’ve arrived at a solution yet. The concept of the prenuptial agreement is one way to deal with marital expectations. But there needs to be more: a real understanding in people’s hearts of how human relationships really are, and recognizing that we’re all flawed and likely to hurt others even if we have good intentions.
Someone in another of Evan’s threads mentioned “managing expectations.” That absolutely applies here. I think in past generations, people didn’t expect as much of their marital relationships, and hence, there were fewer divorces. Sure, it was also because divorce was more difficult, but lower expectations and more acceptance of difficult times almost certainly played a role as well.
# EMK : you said “And go read a book like Predictably Irrational or How We Decide to see how even if I present you facts that contradict your beliefs, you’re still going to want to believe in your original premise even stronger.”
it’s true, and it does apply to yourself too.
I’m waiting for the facts, Soul. Lay ’em on me.
#EMK:
I have not given a lot of time to research this. I just went on google scholar and there are lots of scientific studies. For those who cannot read French, google translation might be helpful just to understand at least the graphs.
Just a quick example of a study showing that in France, the divorce rate is higher than the rate of dissolution of the PACS (another type of commitment between two people). It is even more true is you only consider the PACS between heterosexual people. http://www.challenges.fr/file/436/376436.pdf
Of course, we can find caveats in any study, but there are tons of other studies on this subject in Europe, and my point is just the following: you cannot affirm that marriage is the more stable form of commitment as a fact, because there is existing evidence that it might not be the case.
Evan, I don’t want to argue actually, because I understand your point in this post, and I do agree with what you said. I agree that a proof of commitment should not be a problem if somebody is committed.
Soul, you posted a study in French, using a term (PACs) that’s not familiar to me. As I’ve stated, I will always defer to facts over feelings, and if you have proof that children raised by “PACs” are better off than children raised by married couples, I will gladly concede the case.
There’s a good book called “the seven principles of marriage” that says that when couples are in gridlock over an issue – religion, money, kids, etc. Each person should have an opportunity to talk about what they want means to them – without criticism or judgment or judging the other person. The book says that most issues have a deeper or “core” issue behind them, and once you can figure out what the core issue is (He wants to save money because it makes him feel secure, unlike his childhood vs. her need to feel like she’s living life to the fullest) it’s much easier to defang an issue and come to a compromise.
Unfortunately, the CDC data does not address the issue at hand, which is how many children live in what we call a traditional family arrangement. I will explain.
First, we have to address Nathan’s question–what does “traditional family” mean? From this blog it seems that it means hetero man meets hetero woman, they fall in love, they get married, they have a kid that shares their DNA, and they raise it till death to they part. This is what most people mean when they use the phrase.
Back to the CDC data. In talking about whom children live with, the data you cite uses the term “married parents.” This term would include step parents, even though step parents are not biological parents. The data do break out children who are living with biological parents, but it does not detail what that arrangement means. So the data may not say what they seem to be saying. Case in point: My sister is divorced and remarried, one child. Custody of my nephew is shared jointly, so he lives with both of his biological parents. When he is with my sister, he also lives with a stepfather. So he lives with two “married parents,” and he also lives with two “biological parents.” But his two biological parents are not married, nor are they living together. This is a very common living arrangement. But you cannot say that my nephew lives in a traditional family, even though he would show up in the CDC data as living with married, biological parents.
The data you cite also treat adoptive children in the same way that they treat biological children. So if a married couple divorces and has joint custody of their adoptive child, the child would show up in the data as living with both biological parents, even though the parents are not married and the child is a biological offspring of neither of them. The data also would treat gay couples that are married the same as it would heterosexual couples. If the married gay couple had a biological child, that child would legally be considered the biological offspring of both (according to the parameters of the study), even though that cannot possibly be true. The same situation would be true of hetero couples who use donated eggs or sperm, even though at best a child so conceived is only the biological child of one person in the couple. So, in the CDC data you would have the adoptive or non-biological children of married gay couples counting as children living with married, biological parents, as you would children conceived with donated sperm, donated eggs, and a surrogate. Yet the children of these unions/conception methods are not living in traditional families.
So I still say that the majority of children do not live in traditional families anymore. The 25% figure would take into consideration the diversity of situations I laid out above, which the CDC figures do not. But I’m getting the source of the 25% figure for you so you can read it for yourself–it’s from a book I read recently. Probably Andrew Cherlin’s book called “The Marriage-Go-Round.”
Also, a footnote: The divorce rate doesn’t factor into the equation at all unless there is a 1:1 correlation with the act of getting married and the act of having a child, which there isn’t. Not every marriage produces a child. So the divorce rate (50%) wouldn’t tell us anything about the prevalence of children living in nontraditional families.
Lara-
please. Let it go.
Sayanta: People asked for the explanation, and I responded. Sorry if that bothers you. Also, for those who are interested and want to look for themselves, I was looking at the most recent CDC report, from 2009.
[email protected]: Here are the numbers you’re looking for, from a law journal at Boston College. The citations are a little old, though:
“In the United States today, less than 25% of the population live in traditional families–that is, families consisting of legally married parents and their children.(2)The other 75% live in various types of “non-traditional” families.(3)Of these, the Bureau of the Census estimates that approximately 2.6 million households are composed of unmarried heterosexual couples living together, and that another 1.6 million are composed of same-sex couples living together.(4)
Footnote 2: The Committee for Family Protection, Family Protection Act Summary, 1 (1991) (on file with author) (this summary of impact of municipal domestic partnership ordinances was prepared by proponents of domestic partnership ordinance proposed in Boston, Massachusetts in Spring 1991).
Footnote 3: See Vada Berger, Domestic Partnership Initiatives, 40 DEPAUL L. REv. 417, 417 n.3 (1991).
Footnote 4: Victor F. Zonana, Census Will Count” Unmarrred Partners” for First Time, L.A. TIMES, Feb. 15, 1990, at A38.
This has strayed far from the original point, but just to put a cap on it, less than 25% of the population living in traditional families does NOT make Lara’s case. That’s 25% of the ENTIRE population. We were talking about the percent (and well-being) of kids who are brought up in traditional nuclear families. And since the non partisan CDC says that’s about 50% of children are brought up that way, that’s the figure we’re going to go with.
Less than 25% of the population living in traditional families and 25% of kids coming home to their biological mum and dad are two completely different things. Lara must have read it wrongly.
Thanks for the stats, Lawyer Girl, but I agree with EMK that they don’t address the question at hand, even though they do contribute to sociologists’ investigation into an answer. That said, I don’t agree with EMK’s figure either for the reasons I cited above. The CDC isn’t collecting data that answer the question “how many children are living in traditional nuclear families,” so they wouldn’t define what is meant by “traditional nuclear family” or collect data in a way that can be broken out into traditional versus nontraditional families (the US Census does, however). There are sociologists (like Cherlin) who do study this, so we can turn to them for a more thorough discussion of how one might arrive at a clear picture of what is going on the US regarding families. The problem, which I allude to above, is the difficulty in getting accurate demographic data on families given the constant churn in people’s personal lives and the cultural murkiness surrounding terms like “biological child” and “married parents” and “traditional nuclear family.” Sociologists are having a very hard time with it.
To bring the discussion back to the original post: given the complexity of modern relationships and the seismic shifts in our culture regarding families and marriage–which demographic data of every stripe indicate–and given the lack of any clear roadmap on how to negotiate these changes, I vote for accepting people on the terms they establish for themselves. The OP’s boyfriend probably knows what he wants for himself better than the OP or EMK does. The OP knows what she wants. The two “wants” are not in synch. And at the end of the day, he’s going to do what he chooses to do. Trying to force him into something because you want it, or because you think the world should be some way that it isn’t, is 1) wrong and 2) will probably not work because it is wrong.
Lara, it’s really as simple as this: does he want to have children more than he doesn’t want to get married? Since he already stated that he did want to have children and that he would get married if they did, I happen to think that this is a more realistic possibility than deciding he doesn’t want children…or trying to impregnate a woman who doesn’t want to get married either. You still disagree with me?
In re-reading the original post, I don’t see where he ever said that he’d get married if they had children. The OP said that he believed in long-term commitment and family (which implies having children, I suppose), but not marriage. The OP suggested that he’d give in and get married to keep her, not because he wanted marriage for himself or because he felt marriage was necessary to have children.
Not sure what part of this line you are willfully managing to ignore, Lara, but I would just look at the text itself: “He’s offered the following compromise: in a few years, when we decide to have kids, then we can get married.” Which evidently means that he’d overcome his aversion to marriage in order to create a family with his beloved girlfriend. Still going to disagree because you don’t want this to be true?
If you compare the sorry state of the US (EMK #54) to the rather happy state of Scandinavian countries you have to come to the conclusion that the “destruction of the nuclear family” has nothing to do with the state of society – otherwise the state of Scandinavian countries would have to be worse, but it isn’t.
Second, to accuse entire people of several countries of being irresponsible for having children out of wedlock is, in fact, the kind of rhetoric that would make Santorum proud.
Closer to the topic, to all the women who demand marriage before cohabitation: I personally am not opposed to marriage, though I do think it is quite overrated. I do know, however, that I’d never marry before cohabitation – do you think it is a good idea to make the Big Commitment to the commitment before I know that we’d function as a unit in daily life? I don’t.
I understand “He’s offered the following compromise: in a few years, when we decide to have kids, then we can get married” as saying he’ll give in on marriage to have kids with her (see my post #75). I don’t understand this statement to mean that he needs or wants marriage for himself in its own right. As a matter of fact, I understand it as saying that he doesn’t need marriage in order to have kids, but that because she does he’ll go through with it. If she takes away the marriage requirement he isn’t going to suddenly start demanding that they get married, and from what the OP says, if they have kids and aren’t married he’d be OK with that.
Analogy: A couple decides to drive from L.A. to San Francisco. He wants to take Rt 101. She insists on Rt 1 or she won’t go, no negotiation, end of story. He gives in because he wants to travel to San Fran with her. But if she’s suddenly out of the picture he isn’t going to be taking Rt 1. As a matter of fact, if she strong-arms him into taking Rt 1 the trip may not turn out to be a pleasant one unless she is damn good company. You ask: Does he want to drive along Rt 101 at the expense of going wtih her? There’s another question: Does she want to drive along Rt 1 at the expense of going with him?
Maybe she doesn’t love him enough.
I seriously question the sincerity of the guy’s compromise. If he’s against the institution of marriage and doesn’t see a need for it, why would he go ahead and do it if children were involved? Why would children change anything in his mind?
So as not to lose her? Maybe. But maybe it’s a way of ending the discussion for now and another 2 years. She’s hoping he’ll change his mind or honor his compromise (if it ever gets to that), and he’s possibly hoping she’ll change her mind, and realize she doesn’t need it marriage after all. By that time, she’ll have 3 1/2 years invested living with this guy, acting like a wife but not being one. Too big a risk, imo.
If it were me, I’d move out TODAY. If she wants to be married, she deserves to be married to a man who chooses to marry her; not one who might go along with it someday. They are not 19, they’re in their late 20’s. After a year 1/2, they should have a pretty good idea if they are IT for each other. I wouldn’t give him another 2 years to decide.
She should move out now, keep dating him, not say another word about marriage and in 6 months, break up stating the reason as: “We don’t want the same things. I love you, I want to spend my life with you, but I want marriage and a family and you have said you don’t believe in marriage. You have the right to live as you believe and so do I.”
No crying, no drama, no ultimatum. If he decides he can’t live without her, she’ll have a ring on her finger (that he decides to give her all on his own) or she won’t. At least she’ll have her answer.
DFL and Gem, you both made GREAT points.
DFL, I agree that this whole hypothesis that the nuclear family is crucial to a stable society is nonsense. It’s amazing how many just swallow this hypothesis whole without taking a look around the world! Some of the countries worldwide that enforce a strong family structure are the absolute worst in the world: take a look at the UN Human Development Indices for nations. Now, take a look at the Scandinavian countries: lower marriage rates than virtually any place worldwide, female rights, gay rights, universal health care, strong economies, high education rates, high life expectancies. What’s not to love?
Gem, I agree with you on both points that it rubs one the wrong way that the guy is saying that having KIDS is a prerequisite to marriage, and that she should move out today. The latter, I especially agree with because of Katie’s comment that they’re supposed to move to a foreign country in a few months. With a commitment as seemingly flimsy as what’s described here, I would say absolutely not – she should stay in the country of her roots. I think there’s a lack of appreciation for just how difficult and stressful it is to be an expatriate: any cracks that exist in a relationship now, without a solid commitment, will likely cause the relationship to disintegrate. And it ain’t fun when that happens thousands of miles away from one’s homeland.
Re: nuclear families.
Let me just say that I fully support so-called non-traditional families that include gay and lesbian couples and families with stepparents. I also think that extended families are crucial to a child’s development and the strength of the nuclear unit as well. Grandparents are a godsend to most parents, and aunts and uncles can provide additional wisdom and insight. The more people available to provide love and support for a child, the better.
However, let’s get real. If we are talking about the United States of America, where most of EMK’s readers live, it is unquestioned that children do better overall in homes where there are two parents (I don’t care about the gender of those parents). Yes, people get divorced and there might be time in which a child is in a “broken” home… or the mom doesn’t have a partner to begin with and does everything alone and still raises a quality human being… but we only need to look at many of our inner-city (and rural) communities and notice the poorer outcomes for those children to see that the single-parent structure does not work en masse in this country.
And before anyone calls me a racist, I’m African-American and liberal with tons of friends and family members who teach (or do social work) in urban school systems, and they say every day how their jobs are more and more difficult because the children they deal with come from unstable family structures in which a lack of marriage 9 times out of 10 means that no father is involved in the raising of the children.
You can’t compare the USA to Scandinavia, where you’ve got a federal system of different state laws versus a national one, and where strong benefits and high taxes are much easier to institute across populations of 9 million vs. 300 million. With the conservatives in the USA wanting to cut benefits and say they don’t care about the “very poor,” we are zillions of years from having a system like Sweden or Norway or Denmark.
So, I’d rather deal in reality of what I see day after day on the ground floor in the United States versus wistfully looking at Sweden… and saying that for an American woman who wants kids, marriage is the strongest legal and social protection she has… and giving that up for someone who “doesn’t believe in marriage” could result in significant long-term legal consequences for herself and her children.
Sorry for not getting back sooner re: the US Census stats I mentioned above. While they don’t give us the number of children raised in traditional nuclear families v nontraditional families, the number of traditional v nontraditional households would be correlated to that number. In other words, in order to figure out the number of kids raised in a distribution of households, you need to know what the distribution of households actually is. People have sex everywhere, not just in traditional nuclear families, and kids are born into all sorts of family settings. That the number of traditional nuclear family households is so low relative to nontraditional supports the statistic that 25% (or thereabouts) of kids are raised in nontraditional family settings. I find that number believable and even likely, given the high number of nontraditional households in the US.
Of course, if you are white, wealthy, and live in the Midwest, you might think the number of traditional nuclear families is higher since that’s what you see; if you’re African American or Scandinavian you might think the number is lower, since that’s what you see. That ole confirmation bias in action.
If I were the boyfriend I would end the relationship with the OP immediately. Because here’s what we know about her. She says hurtful things to him. She issues ultimatums. She moved in with him and built a life with him without needing to get married, but then pulled a switcheroo on the issue. When she recognized a major incompatibility between them, instead of ending things respectfully, she threatened to leave at some point in the future of her choosing, unless he changes. She offers no compromise in teturn. She makes his point of view wrong and attributes it to some past trauma he suffered. She belittles his past trauma and suggests that she is better than he because she was not traumatized like he was. She takes her problem to a pro-marriage, family values dating coach to drum up support for her treatment of him. She does all this right when he’s planning to move abroad, likely a move that is positive and exciting for him, at a time when he’s young and can do it without being encumbered.
Dude. Get out. Now.
Hey Joe, that’s what YOU’d do. What you don’t seem to realize is that he LOVES her. That he WANTS to have kids with her. That they have a great relationship worth preserving. That the only thing that they seem to disagree on is whether he should have to put a ring on her finger or not. This isn’t a moral issue. No one is speaking poorly about him. The OP has every right to question whether she should stay with him…and he has every right to question whether he stays with her. Unfortunately, there’s no compromise between marriage/no-marriage, so one of them, if they are to preserve their union, is going to have to change his/her mind. And if you paid attention to my advice, I told her to give him a shot, and he would likely agree to marriage. I didn’t say this because I’m “pro-marriage and family” (although it’s hard to be anti-marriage and family). I said this because HE said that he would agree to marry her if they had kids – and if he’s a man of his word, he will. If he doesn’t, they can both move onto more compatible partners. I don’t see why you’d be judgmental of the OP or myself. Says a lot more about YOUR feelings on marriage than the OP’s boyfriend.
I think you’re reading something into her letter that she never said. She never said that he loved her or that she’s some great love of his life. You keep going there because that’s what you want to be true about this story. This guy has been the same all along, and for a long time. He never misled her or pretended to be something he isn’t. She changed her mind–he didn’t change his. I don’t know why you won’t admit this. I’d go so far as to say that he is maybe even leading her on in saying they’d get married some day. I predict that that’ll be the next letter you get from this OP–that he said he’d marry her and now all these years later he’s dragging his feet and why is that when he agreed, blah blah blah.
He agreed under duress. You know what they call it when men do this to women.
@Joe – He said he’d marry her if they had kids. I’m not sure exactly why he would say that if he didn’t mean it.
And if he didn’t mean it, then he’d be a liar, a user and have no integrity for making a promise he had no intention of fulfilling. Somehow, I don’t think that was the point you were trying to make. Either he’s a good guy who is willing to overcome his anti-marriage bias in order to be a good father… or he’s a liar who just said that to get the little woman off his back and buy a few more good years until she decides she can’t take it anymore. So which is it, Joe?
Ahhhhhh… I knew it would only be a matter of time until someone got a bit nasty.
For the record, I do love him, he loves me, and no I don’t think there’s something “wrong” with his point of view; I know plenty of other people who have that viewpoint on marriage and I can see where they are coming from.Only once I found myself in love, in a long term relationship (funny how when it’s smooth and natural suddenly you realize you’re a year in and where has the time gone?) did it fully dawn on me that this was a real incompatibility.
But, you’re probably right, Joe – I’m just a hurtful, belittling crazy lady. 😀
Being a pro-marriage, family values guy myself, I’m a little surprised that i share Joe’s sentiments.
First, I’d say that the OP is emotionally manipulating her boyfriend. Acc to her letter she knew that this guy was anti marriage upfront, yet she still went ahead to enter into a relationship with him and after making him fall in love with her she starts pushing his buttons with a marriage agenda. And what’s worse? She wants to start issuing ultimatums and she’s seeking validation from a pro-marriage dating coach to do that.
EMK, you know I’ve mostly agreed with you especially when it has to do with marriage and nuclear families, but to be honest, I don’t see this particular case having a happy ending. Just as you’ve advised her, her boyfriend might also have a few friends who advises him, and along the line certain things may happen that will further reinforce his anti-marriage stance.
@Saint Stephen
The OP said in her letter that when the relationship began she did not know that getting married would be important to her.
I can honestly say I didn’t realize at that point that it mattered to me.
She can change her mind, and when that happened an incompatibility developed. She is not manipulating. She is communicating this need to her partner and telling him that the relationship, which takes two people to be satisfied, will fail. She is not happy about this prospect. This is not an ultimatum any more than saying “if you were to take up robbing banks for a living, I would not be comfortable being in a close relationship with you.”
Yes, she changed and it could mean the end of the relationship if he can’t change himself. That is said, and maybe it is even unfair, but that is how people are. They don’t always know everything about themselves at every moment, and they certainly don’t know how they might change over time. We have incomplete control over what we want in life and how that changes.
(Nor did she make him fall in love with her. That was something he did.)
@AllenB
The OP said:
See, ever since we started dating — even before we started dating and knew each other through friends — I knew this guy didn’t believe in marriage.
I believe if she had him told in the early phase of their relationship that marriage meant much to her – he would have shown her the door. Issues like marriage which involves two responsible matured individuals isn’t something you change your mind on a whim. Frankly, if i were to be her boyfriend, I would doubt her stability in other facets of life if she could be this fickle when it comes to paramount issues like marriage.
I said that the OP is manipulating her boyfriend because she knows that whenever someone is in love, they will do whatever it takes to keep their SO around – even if it’s to their detriment. The OP waited that (1 and half years) long until she knew that her boyfriend was in love with her before she starts becoming sure that she wanted marriage.
A similar analogy, Imagine if a girl told me that she was a virgin and she would never indulge in premarital sex and i concurred to her terms prior to the relationship only to change my mind after one year and six months – when she must have become fully emotionally invested in me – and start pressurizing her to put out/give in or I take a walk, and i can only do this because i know that at this point it will be virtually impossible for her to say no! Wouldn’t you see it as an emotional manipulation/blackmail? Cos that’s exactly what our OP is doing to her dear boyfriend.
Katie knew her boyfriend didn’t believe in marriage when she first started dating him, but also didn’t think that was an issue for her in the beginning either. Then she fell in love and started thinking about having kids. Marriage started to become important to her. She doesn’t want to have a family without the benefit of marriage. What in the world is wrong with that? How is that manipulative?
She didn’t force him to fall in love with her, but it happened naturally, just as her desire for marriage evolved over time. It didn’t happen “on a whim.” She’s in her late twenties, at an age when many people start to think about settling down. It would be manipulative if Katie planned the whole thing, but she didn’t.
It’s never impossible for anyone to end a relationship over something they believe in strongly enough. Difficult, maybe, but not impossible.
I don’t really buy the manipulation argument either. Stephen’s point about the fact that people in love will do what they can to keep the other person around makes some sense, however it strike me that the OP’s needs changed during their relationship, and now she’s trying to act upon those needs. I don’t see anything wrong with that. The boyfriend has to be responsible for his decisions as well. He needs to consider if he’s just trying to keep her around or not. I do still believe that the OP needs to be willing to have some deep conversations with him without trying to push an agenda. However, I don’t think she is being manipulative here at this point.
I see Joe’s point. He hasn’t changed, she has. And so she needs to act on her needs and respect his, without making him wrong. She would have to be brave and responsible and break up with him respectfully, without making him wrong or asking him to change. Because all the time that she hangs around with him, biding her time, he could be out creating a relationship with a woman who wants all that he wants, but who doesn’t want to get married either.
No, Katie–it may not be crazy, but it isn’t responsible or wise to continue a relationship after you’ve changed the terms of the agreement, thinking that maybe the other person will make the fundamental personality adjustment that you seem to think is possible.
[email protected]: He’s now doing the same thing that she’s doing. He went into it with one understanding, she changed the understanding, and now he’s maintaining the status quo while he considers his options. As Stephen points out, he’s probably got lots of people on his side telling him what he wants to hear, just like you’re telling her what she wants to hear. If he’s “anti-marriage,” he probably has lots of support for that point of view.
But just curious–did your wife issue an ultimatum to get you to marry her?
Times are changing, and as not being married becomes a respected life choice, because more people are choosing it, these types of discussions will pop up more and more. But they’ll be different, I predict. They’ll be more like the conversations about marrying a person of a different faith. And the answers will be much clearer.
Look at how ridiculous the conversation on this thread sounds if you swap marriage/no marriage with Catholicism/Judaism:
“I’ve been dating a Jewish guy and I’m Catholic. After two years of being together I was thinking about it and decided that I wanted to raise my future kids Catholic. He doesn’t believe in Catholicism and refuses to convert. I told him that I wouldn’t marry him if he didn’t convert. He was hurt and said he’d convert later, when the kids are born. But what if he doesn’t? How long should I wait for him to covert?”
And then the response: “Don’t worry–he’ll come around. He’ll convert because he loves you. He just has to get over his anti-Catholic position, the result of being traumatized by Catholics. But everyone knows that Catholicism is better than Judaism, so…just wait, honey. He’ll come around.”
If you understand his position as a world view and a statement of intention you’ll see that there is no hope here if there is respect.
@Diane – you seemed to have missed the part where he volunteered to convert to Judaism if they had kids. That’s the difference between why she should stay vs. why she should go. Successful couples compromise to preserve their union. If they can’t compromise, it falls apart. Since it sounds like he’d be willing to marry her if they had kids, I told her to take him at his word. If he doesn’t, she respects his opinion and moves on. What’s so hard to accept about that?
The hard-to-accept part: That his conversion would be real. In my example above the pressure would come from a certain anti-Semitic POV, that being Catholic is just better because “everybody” does it this way. That’s why I cast the disagreement as being over something that is a heartfelt belief about how someone wants to live his life. In both my example and the OP situation, the predominant culture is pressuring the guy to go against his stated preference for how he wants to live his life. You seem to be trivializing this aspect of his position, as if being married, or converting to Catholicism, is just a mere “compromise” that one person has to make in order to have a relationship.
If that’s so, why shouldn’t the compromise go the other way? Why don’t you advise her that if everything else is in place, what difference does the wedding make?
As more people support nontraditional ways of doing relationship, he’ll find a lot of people to support him, even if the current GF doesn’t.
@Diane – whether you want to believe this or not, MOST people eventually get married. Doesn’t mean they stay together forever. But as far as marriage being an eventual option for most people: the percentage of people who have ever been married by the age of 55: Both males and females: 95%
So as much as there are certainly nontraditional ways of having relationships, marriage is still, by far, the most common one.
And finding an educated woman who is willing to have a child with a man who won’t marry her…well, let’s say there aren’t all that many of those out there. If you want to prove otherwise, find me a statistic of college-educated women over the age of 30 who choose to have children out of wedlock (not counting sperm-donors). I’m guessing it’s less than 5% of all relationships, which means that the OP’s boyfriend would have to search far and wide for a woman who wants to have kids without having a husband.
You’re entitled to your opinion about whether marriage and kids work for you, but, as of now, the statistics are still on my side.
I disagree with Evan on this. Not all guys marry the woman who is patient enough. Some guys would choose to stay for many years with a woman they love, but wouldnt want to marry. Perhaps it is unintentional and they think they are not ready for marriage, while they are just not ready to marry that particular woman. I waited for 4 years for my boyfriend, but after we broke up, he married someone else within 3 months. I was in Katie’s position, I was 28 when I started relationship, I waited till 32 which was a big mistake. While being single at 32 is not that bad, dating pool shrinks considerably compared to 29. It is also not easy to have a good relationship when you strongly wish to get married and you are risking the chance of getting married by staying with your boyfriend. Slowly resentment will keep in. How long you can love at the cost of your dream? Finally when relationship breaks, it will be due to other issues, but the root cause of those issues could be the frustration of not getting married. It all depends on how strong the desire for marriage is. It is fine if you dont wish marriage. But some people really, really want to get married. Whats wrong with it ? If you dont make a stand for your dreams, who else will do it ? If you strongly wish to get married, no man or woman is worth risking that dream. Unless Katie can choose to stay with her boyfriend accepting the possibility of never getting married , she should move on.
[email protected]: That’s usually the stance that family therapists take regarding this issue. If you want a particular form of relationship it’s up to you to go out and get it, it isn’t up to someone else to give it it you because you want it. And if someone has been very clear about wanting/not wanting a particular form of relationship, that someone usually doesn’t change. Or if he/she does, not on your timetable. Therapists might think that a woman who hangs on regardless of her boyfriend’s stated desire not to marry has control issues that need addressing.
Oh sorry for the double post–meant to respond to EMK’s stats. According the Cherlin book I mentioned earlier, Americans do have a higher rate of marriage than most countries. They also have a higher rate of divorce. (Which is why he calls the book “The Marriage-Go-Round.”) So, the high marriage rate isn’t the whole story.
Another thing to note: Any data that is discussing people married by age 55 are talking about people who were born in the 1950s at the latest–another era. We don’t know how lifetime marriage rates are going to play out for people born after the social changes (high divorce rates) of the 1970s since those folks are not 55 yet (which I guess is the magic cutoff age for first marriages). We’ll have to wait until 2025 or so to see how the post-1950s social changes will affect marriage rates (and thus the marriage prospects of the currently unhitched).
You might give that book a read, since you seem to like this type of inquiry. Don’t think you’ll find anything in there too controversial or upsetting. 🙂
Let’s cut to the chase here. Take it from someone who spent 8 years with a man I loved, who refused to move in together and share a home, but who told me we would get engaged when his daughter graduated from high school, but broke up with me instead: when a man and a woman are in a serious, committed, long term relationship but he is not proposing after a few years, he is just not that into her. Period. I found out the hard way, got my heart broken, but learned a lesson. If the man and woman don’t agree on something as important as marriage, or any other commitment-based issue, pay attention. The relationship is flawed and will end badly with someone getting very, very hurt.
Really, by 2 years with someone you should know whether or not you want to marry him or her. There can be circumstances where you can’t just get engaged right away (finishing a degree, employment issues, etc.), but barring those, if you’re with someone longer than 2 years, and you don’t know you want to get married, you don’t want to get married.
they seem to care about each other and etc. but there is something hanging over the relationship, she wants to get married and settle down and he doesn’t believe in it, but at the end of the day the answer is simple, she will have to move on unless he is able to make marriage an option.
Two options here…
Either A he is far more afraid of real, long lasting commitment to one person than “Marriage” and hides behind the title to avoid his fears… and never give you what you need.
Or
B He clearly knows he wants a monogamous relationship with one woman for the rest of his life (or at least he hopes) whom he can build a united life with and keep a partnership healthy no matter what…
That is your simple answer. The majority of men who say they don’t believe in marriage, really don’t believe (or think they are capable of committing to) the RIGHT ideals of marriage. These ideals are, KNOWING you only want one woman in your life, for the rest of your life (hopefully), knowing you want to be part of a team, a partnership which lasts beyond obstacles, clearly stating this without doubt, and acting like a “husband” in every way that his partner needs… The minority, really think marriage in itself is insignificant to two people’s commitment to one another and believes they can do the above without the piece of paper.
How do you decipher? Simple. You know deep down which of these you have. He either fulfills your needs in every way (except the issue of actually getting hitched) or his behavior is not enough and therefore he is far more afraid of commitment than of marriage.
This is the best article/advice I have read on this subject. As someone who was pining to get engaged and dropped the bomb too soon before my bf was ready, its been a really tough/sad few months trying to stay together knowing the relationship isnt where I want it to be. I wish I had never brought it up with him, and had had patience and waited until he did first. Because now our relationship is strained and depressing when it used to be so wonderful. Girls, a cautionary tale – unless you know for sure that he wants it too, bite your lip when you start feeling the urge to get married. The consequence of trying to just be a girlfriend again, when you know and he knows that you are dying inside to be a wife, really hurts. 🙁
Lea
if a man or a woman’s way of dealing with conflict is to give you the cold shoulder then you don’t want them anyway. If your way of dealing with your needs and wants is to pretend you don’t have them and then to punish yourself for making a mistake, that’s your issue to address.
your relationship was not that wonderful if this disagreement can derail it. I don’t actually believe in wonderful or happy ever after or bliss. It’s work and compromise, but of a rewarding kind, not the dubious situation you have going on there.
men rule the world still, they fight wars, they perform surgery, they work, cook, pay bills, get degrees, kill animals. They understand that most people get married. if he behaves like the idea is completely alien and an affront then , maybe, he just … doesn’t want to marry you. He is a man, not a baby.
even if you were silly enough to mention it in the first month of dating a more promising response would be, “I like you and marriage is something I see In my future but let’senjoy what we have for now. We still don’t know each other that well.”
Women constantly bemoan that they did or that to turn mr wonderful into a frog. He’s not that wonderful, no man or woman is. and none of us, whether a pua or the most men love bitches rules playing woman, has that much power to change another human being. Who wants that responsibility anyway? No thanks. I can’t be bothered to expend the time and energy on manipulation. I’d rather meet a good guy who is ready for a good relationship than be cajoling mr reluctant.
The letter writer is/was in an interesting situation given the fact that she entered a relationship accepting that her boyfriend was not open to the idea of marriage (how honest and mature of him to have stated his opinion early on) and changed her mind later on as the relationship developed. Compromizing of that question is going to be a must in their situation.
However I am concerned when I hear of such scenarios. Simply suggesting to wait, assuming he will eventually get there is pretty risky to me. So many people are simply not ready for a life-long commitment despite their “perfect partner behavior” and their babbling about the future, and often will not become ready within their ongoing relationship. It’s either a matter of their partner not being the one, or a need for much more maturing, which usually happens between relationships. Proposing to wait for marriage until the time comes to have kids, or until an older kid graduates, or until getting a new job, or until X happens = excuses to delay taking ones responsabilities. Which does not have to be getting married right at this second, but must certainly involve assessing goals and compatibility and exploring the potential of the relationship.
I’m encouraging women who desire to build a solid, happy, long-lasting marriage to certainly make sure early on that their prospect is open to progressing towards marriage as a general life goal for themselves, but to focus the early dating stage in getting to know him in depth and making sure that he will be a solid husband. What is the point of obsessing about marriage when you are not even sure that you are both truly compatible in your values and life goals?
Personally marriage is important to me, as well as the willingness to progress purposefully towards that goal. But most important is the quality of the person I will marry because I’m not interested in rushing into a doomed marriage. I want to build a solid, healthy, and happy one and would opt out of the relationship at the first sign of character defects incompatible with that goal. Since the possibility of marriage as well as following a reasonnable timeline were deal-breakers to me, I made sure that he had the same ultimate goal for his life and was ready to get there sooner rather than later if we were to work it out together. Once that was figured out and we were truly loving and trusting each other, we focused on carefully assessing our compatibility of values, lifestyle, goals, etc. It is crucial to make sure that we saw eye-to-eye or were able to make healthy compromises on the question of where to live, children, career and money management, spirituality, etc. Then and only then does it make sense to discuss marriage in more depth.
It’s okay to desire marriage, but make sure you are both able to be exceptional spouses to one another. This is not a given. Few people have the necessary character qualities and relationship skills, and few relationships have the potential to progress into that direction.
Quick question.. Would he want to marry someone who is so quick to move on? I know I wouldn’t.
@ Cecily,
How much longer should she wait? The BF is pretty clear he does not believe in marriage. There is no way, as it currently stands (assuming there has been no update) that both people get what they want in this situation. How much more time should she invest *hoping* he changes his mind? There is a phrase that says “hope deferred makes the heart sick”.
I think the way men are behaving now days is awful.. Your cheating women and children out of security and contentment and love…. Here goes…why should men and women get married? Answer- when you find your compatable other half the very least they should offer if they wish to have children with you is MARRIAGE… Why? Because we as women need to feel treasured and secure that when we do fall pregnant and carry a child in our bodys that we will be looked after and cared for, for a women carrying a child is sacred and beautiful and giving birth going through trauma and pain that No man would ever encounter they need support, I nearly died and my baby during child birth, and my husband walked out when she was 9 months old for a fitter model! My body changed in actual fact women’s bodies take a battering! you don’t feel sexy for quite a while after but you do get your mojo back all I wanted was that no matter how things were, that the special gift I gave to my husband and myself was sacred to us and remained special, that magic I don’t see very often?? But that is how women tick. We just want to belong and be special to our partner. Not a man expecting you to go through all that trauma and bodily change for them just to say I don’t want this anymore im off and I’ll chuck you £300 maintenance a month whilst you look after my children raise them, feed them, dress them, I’ll have them 1 night a week, so you have no life whilst I go and have a fantastic career and sleep around with women who don’t have children! What a cheek! And to top it off if your not married you walk away with nothing whilst he keeps the home! I don’t think so!!! You men need to step up, take responsibility and stop behaving like Hugh Hefner! Rant over, please feel free to comment x
read most of the comments. and this has made me truly depressed. i am a woman who wants marriage and i am with a man who doesn’t. i love him and he loves he. he wants to act like we’re married without the ring. Why would a man who would love you, care for you, share all things with you, ect. not want marriage?
I am not worth it, I am just a place holder. I am not special or good enough. That is why he doesn’t want marriage. At least that is how he has made me feel. and he’ll have to live with that as long as we are together. that he couldnt give me the one thing i wanted. I didnt want nice cars, money, a nice home, i dont want materialist things, all i wanted was his hand in marriage.
I feel the same way, that you feel 🙁
I been with my boyfriend for 3 years and half have a daughter. And to this day he’s saids he doeS NOT believe in marriage and will never get marry.(his parents have been happily marry for 35years) I’m ready to walk out the door because he saids he will never get marry. I believe in marriage n was stupid enough to move in, my biggest mistake that I have made my entire life! He didnt want kids, it just happen. If he is telling you he is going to marry you than be patient there is hope for you. For me there isnt he had told when we started dating that he wanted kids and marriage but after he changed his mind and when I remind him of this, he deny it deny it deny it, he said he would never say that. (According to him he doesn’t remember things how convinient) the first time I remind him he told me he said that so I can give him a chance. Now the story has change he never said that. I’m stupid for staying with this man. He doesnt even believe in presents for any occasion. Im not materialistic but every woman likes to be spoil. I’m still with him because I have no where to go. But I’m working my ass off to get my own place and take my daughter with me. He saids marriage are old traditions that dont exist. That is just paper, but Im the bad person for not caring about his feeling n values. But he doesnt care about mine. When we talk about something that bothers me he turns it all around on himself poor him n this and that. i would give him hints he never took them there is no hope. I’m not even going to be part of his best friends wedding because I don’t want anything to do with weddings because I’m so hurt that the person I love doesn’t want to marry me. For you Katie there is hope hang in there a lil longer. Good luck and I hope you have a happy ending.
I have been in a relationship for 4 years. We are both in our 40’s and divorced. I have a teenage son. When we first got together we discussed our future, living together, marriage etc. but agreed we should take our time for the sake of my son, and agreed we would wait a couple of years (plus our previous marriages had only recently ended). then about a year later he told me he wanted to wait even longer. He has now told me he isn’t sure what he wants. He has assured my he loves me and doesn’t want us to split, but enjoys living alone and the relationship we have now. He never wants to marry and is not sure if he wants us to ever live together. He prefers to ‘see how things go’ and that it is not in his nature to make plans. I am a planner. I’ve asked if we could somehow agree to ‘meet in the middle’ and he has agreed to try and spend more time with me (we currently spend 1 night a week together when my son is at his fathers, and maybe a couple of evenings and an afternoon). He still hasn’t given me a key to his house, and I have yet to meet all his friends. He is good friends with his ex and I know they occasionally spend time together. He has never wanted children, so I think my son is the problem, though they do get along. I don’t think he wants the responsibility. I am devastated by his recent announcement and he knows it, but never offers any words of reassurance (which I know I should be grateful for, hollow promises are no use to anyone). The thing I find really upsetting is that occasionally he will talk about our future together and maybe even mention marriage. It’s doesnt happen often, most recently a couple of months ago, but when I bring the subject up he says he has changed his mind and he apologises for leading me on. I adore him and cannot imagine life without him. I am torn between thinking he genuinely loves me and things may change when my son is an adult, or that he is not really into me (though he may not release it) and one day he will meet someone else and leave me. I honestly don’t know what to do, but the thought of not being with him fills me with despair.
In my country, marriage is something that happens very rarely. The rate of marriage is, in fact, one of the lowest in the world. So my point of view might interest some people here…(By the way, sorry if I make some mistakes, english is not my first language…)
Here, marriage is not something common or obvious. It’s not the ”normal” way of a successful relationship. The big majority live together and have kids but never get married…Or get married when they are older, because it’s cute and romantic. It’s not necessary and someone who doesn’t want to get married is just considered as normal. Someone who wants to get married is considered as a sensible and romantic person, it’s cute.
We have something called ”conjoint de fait” and with that we basically have the same rights than with a marriage, for the child, and everything…But at the end nobody gives half his things when the relationship ends. The child are protected and that’s all.
I don’t understand that vision of marriage. Having kids is a bigger way to show someone that you love him and that you want to spend de rest of your life with him…Because no matter what from now on you will have to be near that person for at least 18 years. It is a waaaay bigger proof of engagement that a piece of paper ( and I’m not talking about religious marriage here, it’s not the same thing – I understand that if you have Faith you want to do what it says). I really don’t see why just loving someone is not enough, and for me if you’re willing to force someone to do something he don’t want, and if his love is not enough and you’re willing to leave him just for a ring and a piece of paper…You don’t really love him. You can desire marriage but love should be the priority. And I don’t believe in ”if he truly loves you he will accept this for you” because he could tell you the same thing. Marriage is not important ( unless you have religious view on it). It’s just the way you’ve been ”brainwashed”: ” YOU SHOULD MARRY TO HAVE A SUCCESSFUL RELATIONSHIP!” But it’s not true. You miss the point. Love is more important than marriage and leaving someone for that is, well…A proof that you never loved him as much as the idea of marriage. For me, at least.
Hi Mary
I’m new to this excellent site, and am fascinated by the stories here. Like you I was puzzled by so many posters banging on about marriage. I also see it as a pointless institution, way past its sell-by date in an advanced and civilised society. Where are you from? (I’m a Brit.)
Your comment that women who end an otherwise satisfactory relationship because a man won’t sign a ridiculous legal document, prove they were not as in love with the man as they thought, are bang-on. And don’t think men don’t realise exactly that when pressurised into marriage by a woman.
Staying fully-committed yet unmarried provides a huge incentive to work on the relationship and make it continue. Either side could leave at any time. I believe that is a good thing.
Once married so many men and women drift into taking each other for granted, indulge in less sex and more cake and alcohol, and so metamorphosise into unattractive fat slobs.
Can anyone here say they haven’t seen it happen, again and again? 🙂
Cheers, Mark.
Why oh why do women push men to get married nowadays, why???? If he wants to marry you at any point in your relationship, he will ask you, if you MAKE him ask you, pushing him to meet your parents is the first sign, talking about your married friends, relatives etc, it’s enough to make any guy run even if you are a model or brain surgeon, just slow down, a year and a half is nothing, he hardly knows you, 3 years down the line, fair enough he hasn’t proposed, then probably best to leave. You are relatively young too, if you were late thirties that would be different, time would not be on your side to have a baby no matter what the magazines say. Just don’t push him or you’ll either push him away for good or he’ll marry you because he is being forced too and guarantee that will end up in the divorce courts. Calm down and slow down.
Nic, also sorry but you sound terribly needy and insecure, my advice, get out, he doesn’t love you enough, he doesn’t even want to live with you, this is not a relationship just in his eyes some companionship, not married by 40, no kids, please do not waste any more time and think about your son more, he should be your number one not some 40 year old bachelor who will never marry.
To me it’s more important that the person shares same feelings and believes rather than the official registration of marriage. I want him to feel the same way I do. I want him to WANT to spend his life together, not just push him with ultimatum. I know I will never feel good about it. It will always haunt me (unless there is a huge financial gain.) I told my boyfriend when we met that I am not looking to get married, but that can change. I think it became a challenge for him, so he tried everything to make me want to get married, however after 2 years I felt like I was ready to move forward to make future plans because I was tired of “dating” he didn’t want to make plans. Of course he didn’t say it, but actions are louder. At that point I didn’t want somebody who didn’t WANT to marry me and I wanted to move on. It is really hard to accept this, but will be even harder down the road. I am not giving any ultimatums I even suggest that we remain friends (which never works), but I would rather be alone than with the person who wants everything I have to offer (financial stability, affection etc) but doesn’t want (or maybe can’t) change what they WANT.
Anita I know it hurts but you must leave him. When he tells you he wants to stay in touch tell him that you won’t respond until you are ready. Let him know that his love is not enough and if he truly lives you he will allow you to heal. This is a non negotiable, if you want marriage and children you need to find a man who wants the same. Good luck.
I take issue with the assertion that he “has such a distorted view of marriage”. I think that is a distortion in and of itself. While for some it offers stability, for others it is a liability. Divorce is easy, they don’t even care about infidelity or if you carried your weight in a marriage, but you can still walk away with half of the material goods. Divorce is basically rubber stamped these days and give the lower earning spouse license to do whatever they want and still expect half of everything. And indeed it means a lot of different things to different people.
His view isn’t distorted at all. The romantic view of marriage is the one that is distorted, based solely on emotion and not on reality.
It appears that you are referring to the wife as the lower earning spouse. However, when researching divorced couples across all socioeconomic levels, I have found that the wife is often the higher earning of the spousal pair in middle class situations. This changes and is distributed more equally in the upper middle class.
These earning standards change once again in the upper class, and poverty level situations have distinct deviations as well.
I believe if a guy truly loves you and want to have all the benefits as a married person then he should put the ring on and be committed.It shows that his relationship to you means something and have value
Speaking from personal experience that article is a load of crock!
I was patient for 16 years and four kids later and still he won’t propose, did I nag…nope not at all. In fact I only aired my anger at him this prior year! All I got was an apology in return and the same old bullshit. So my advice is to move on before you end up with kids and nothing to your name because you were a stay at home mom and he put all the properties he bought in his name only. No social security benefits no assets no career nothing. He has it all and I have nothing. So I cry bullshit on the anti marriage bs. Just a way to entrap women, men get all the benefit in the end. Congrats on falling for the unmarried propaganda of the new generation! I wish knew now what I didn’t know at 21! So an answer why girls are stupid and get stuck in half sided relationships…because they don’t learn better until there thirties and they are overly forgiving and patient. Woman will put up with a lo of crap from men because its in our nature or programming to do so.
I think it’s good to wait a long time before you marry someone.
Men in modern society simply cannot gain substantive benefit from marriage. The risk shear risk of divorce and the price that come’s with it are simply too high. The increase in suicide during and after marriages out weight any benefit. It is an investment with massive costs and few to no returns. The effects divorce on children are unacceptable and abusive custody battles have no place in modern society. Even Jesus would likely have objection to the broken system of marriage today.
Marriage is for the brainwashed . Why would you take a perfectly good thing and get the government involved ? It isn’t stacked law wise fairly at all if it doesn’t work out it’s like putting your relationship through a meat grindr after it’s expiry date .
When I met my (now) husband he didn’t want to get married. He had a rough divorce and just didn’t want to go through that again. I told him, “one day you’re going to wake up and say, ‘I’ve got to marry Erika.'” I was absolutely sure that day would happen. And it did, four years later. I was surprised and elated that had asked, and I never put a timeline on it. I just waited, patiently, for him to realize how awesome I am. We got married three weeks ago.
what a relief to hear this Erika! I am currently in a wonderful relationship with someone who I consider to be my best friend and soul mate. He’s been divorced before and I am a widow of 2 years. We have been together for 1 year.He insists I’m the one for him but the wants a longer term relationship before marriage. This is coming from someone who said they stopped believijg in marriage after their awful divorce. I’m hoping what he says is true and I just need to be patient and give him time.
I think there have been some excellent points made! But I also think that if you find someone who you truly love, and they are all you have ever dreamed of, they make you happy, and you can imagine spending the rest of your life with them, then maybe you don’t need the piece of paper. My boyfriend has the same view as a few people on here, ie that marriage is suicide for men if it goes downhill, and neither of us are religious and that is essentially what marriage is. I have always assumed I would marry, but now I am so happy with my boyfriend that if he does not want to then I accept that. It does not mean so much to me, especially because really it’s just an expensive day with a pretty dress and a pretty ring and a signed piece of paper, that I can forgo it to be happy with him.
I been with my boyfriend for 7 years and I had my kid on May 7 2014 and I would like to get married to be happy I know a lot of people don’t believe in marriage but that’s a would earful day of our life’s cuz you are making a new life
I’m sorry, but I have to disagree with Evan’s advice. If she is in her late 20’s and she wants kids, she has to be aware that her fertility is already on the decline. If she sticks around until 32, she’ll be even worse off, from a biological standpoint. You are basically telling her to hedge her chance at a family on this guy’s schedule and whims. It’s a gamble for her, and one that could end in disaster.
Yes. I agree.
I have a problem where my partners wife (of 27) died suddenly we became really close, started a relationship and he asked me to move in with him which I did and we have lived together for 8 months.
Previously he was my boyfriend before I met my husband who I was with for 28 years
His children and I have a brilliant bond and they all confide in me and we are a close family, it has been hard because I moved into his house which he shared with his wife and all her belongings were in there, although he has now moved her picture of the dresser her belongings are still there and I feel like I am trespassing at times.
His daughter gets ready in our room every morning and doesn’t grasp the concept of adult time at all, even on my days off work I am up at 6am because she is, my own children are already grown up, he feels uncomfortable that I want her to get ready in her own room.
At the beginning he said that one day he would give me his name and recently had a bit of a melt down and said he shouldn’t of said that as he doesn’t believe in marriage and only married his wife because she nagged at him to do it for 5 years.
I feel absolutely hurt and gutted about this as I now feel that we have no progression for our relationship and I feel like I have just slotted into a wife role where I keep the house and kids and everything running smoothly so he can chill when hes not working,i also work; we work brilliantly in every other way, but marriage is important to me, he says it is only a bit of paper to him and wouldn’t make him love me more than he does already, but I don’t feel like that, he loves me and tells me all the time, but I dreamt about that stability when he said it, before that it didn’t bother me as I always had trouble letting people in, I trusted him and hes hurt me more than I can exhibit, he says he will not back down because that’s his decision, but what makes his needs any greater than mine, im giving up my life to be every form of wife possible for him which I am doing well but he cant commit, I feel like I am being used and hurt really badly, we are great together apart from this and its ripping me apart, if he loves me like he says why cant he give me the security I crave with him, if its just a piece of paper to him what has he actually got to lose when we are already living a married life, I don’t want to be just friends with benefits!! he has a way of making me feel selfish for wanting this, all his kids feel we are brilliant together and think its a good thing if we do get married and I have to pretend it doesn’t hurt when they say this, I am the one keeping this going by backing down yet I feel like I should walk away but I know this will hurt the kids and set them back again which I cant bring myself to do.
Yes, the kids will be hurt. But you could still have a relationship with them even if you leave him. There’s no changing the situation. He’s said he won’t get married again. Let him go but if keeping a relationship with the kids is important to you, you can still do that without being his partner.
I have been in my relationship almost ten years, as much as we love each other he has not popped the question yet. I continue to wait and hope for that day to come.
in a way it is very frustrating because I want to know what’s running through his mind when the word marriage is mentioned. he says he does want to marry me and have children which is great, except that it feels like he has made these declarations without promise.
I try to understand the males way of thinking when it comes to these sorts of matters, therefore I have hope that my baby will kneel on one knee and make me happier than I already am when he asks me to be his wife.
A strange thing as well, when some people mention that a woman only thinks of a grand wedding, this is not true, I for one do not care about a wedding and I am sure I am not the only woman, it wouldn’t hurt to make a trip to the courthouse to sign some papers and head home for a nice dinner with just the two of you to celebrate your official union. I like to think of it as tying myself to the one I love in every way I can for the rest of my life.
Katie,
What part of this guy’s statement didn’t you understand when he mentioned he’s not interested in getting married? You should respect what he said, don’t push your luck and boundaries when a man or anyone says this, they say what they mean, mean what they say.
You’re focusing in on this as being, “negative” when actually, it’s not at all. He was being 100% honest with you, however, you went into this relationship thinking you can change him, you can change the way he sees this relationship and get married to you. That, Katie, is negative, making him the problem instead of correcting your own behavior, let alone not repeating your past history with a new guy.
My recommendation is to be 100% open and honest with the new guy, if he’s not into marriage, move on.
Women seem to think they can, “fix” men which actually doesn’t work at all. It just leaves the ladies bitter about their relationships and feeling used when what they thought was going to work, didn’t happen the way they planned.
In other words, you are responsible for you and you alone, you can only change yourself, not someone else, that is for everyone, not just women.
If someone doesn’t want to get married, they usually have a really good reason for it. If you don’t respect what they say about it or don’t believe in it. How is it you believe you would get married to this person, let alone not being taken as fake?
If you don’t state the absolute truth before you get into a LTR with someone and just say what they want to hear. What makes you or anyone else that is doing this, worthy of marriage in the first place?
Be truthful, communicate often, if they don’t have the same values, you know what to do… (NEXT!)
Marriage is definitely a commitment towards a woman why? Because it means a man was willing to devote his time into making her happy and creating one of the best memories. It means he chose her out of billions of people he chose to make her a happy woman. He loved her enough to choose her and give her the happiest day and memory of her life. Trust me with most women depriving a woman from the happiest day of her life will make a very unhappy and depressed lady and it will make her think she isn’t worth your devotion or time or money or love and in essence she will one day feel that way about you and she will always have resentment and anger towards you.
Honestly, I spent nine years in one relationship and five years in another where the guy “didn’t believe in marriage” and I thought he’d change his mind when he realized how amazing I was. These men both loved me very much, I’m sure–just not enough. (And one of them went on to marry the next girl he dated after me, within two years of meeting her).
I don’t want kids, but marriage is still important to me. My feeling now is that if a guy says he doesn’t think marriage is important, and I do think it is important, if he loves me he will give me this one–because it’s important to ME and he couldn’t care less. If he still hangs on to his anti-marriage stance when I make my beliefs clear, then that philosophical stance is clearly more important to him than his relationship with me.
I’m looking for the love of my life, and that person would not only want to marry me–they’d be the one bringing it up first. If I don’t get that, I don’t mind being single. It’s better for me emotionally than being in any kind of half-in, half-out situation. I think at this point, your bf has had 4.5 years with you to figure out whether or not you’re “indispensable,” as Evan says. If he’s not bringing up marriage first, either he doesn’t love you ENOUGH–or he doesn’t think you’re going anywhere and he can choose. If you’re giving him all the love and commitment anyway, why would he make the change?
Just things to think about.
One of the questions the original writer asked was, “Is it a bad idea to marry someone who is basically like “fine, fine, we can get married.”” Obviously, I know nothing much about your relationship, but it might be helpful to consider that the fact that your boyfriend is prepared to consider marriage to you at some future point is a MASSIVE sign of commitment from him. Commitment, and willingness to compromise – for you – on a huge issue. You say you know he loves you, so you should obviously not take his “reluctance” over the M issue personally. If it were me, and the relayionship was as good as you say, I would be hugely touched by his willingness to consider marriage. And I would tell him that, tell him at the same time that I was sorry if I’d come off all pressuring, and then I’d drop it – like forever. And if he does ever propose to you, and because of his position his proposal is s bit more, “ok, it’s important to you, so fine, let’s do it” and less “oh my darling I cannot imagine not marrying you please, make me very lucky etc etc”, if I were you, I would TAKE IT WITH BOTH HANDS. I would not come down hard on a man for giving me what I needed on the grounds of style/mode of expression.
But maybe that is just me.
2 comments:
1. Years ago I read a wonderful point in a dating book. It was about the lists of “wants” and “needs” women have for a partner. You know, things like, sense of humour, smart, kind, looks, height, religion, body, income, etc. It said: if you want marriage and children, the number 1 point on your list, the absolute most important to have as a need, is simply this. Find a man who also wants marriage. Who wants the lifestyle and social changes marriage brings; the commitment, the financial, sexual, health, family, psychological things associated with marriage. A man who at this stage of his life is ready to contemplate marriage with a view to wanting to enter the institution of marriage, with all that implies.
2. We all know that some men say they’ll consider marriage “later”… when “x” happens. And then the woman waits around for “x” to occur, and maybe if it does, the goalposts then shift. Or the agreement is more vague. And basically the man never marries her. And he was never planning to. Maybe after many years, they break up, and he marries his next partner before “x” even occurs. We’ve all heard about that tale.
I believe Evan has said elsewhere, place import on what a man DOES. Watch his actions.
What the original poster’s partner has done is: not marry her, not propose, state he does not ever want to marry, enter a defacto relationship without marriage or an engagement, and plan to embark on a huge geographical move.
Yes he has said (with an element of gun-to-the-head in my opinion) if you want marriage when/if we have kids, we can marry then. I would be concerned as to whether this was true.
I think it is possible that he doesn’t know whether he wants a long term relationship and children with the original poster. If he knew he did, given he knows she wants marriage before kids, he could propose now. If they are having kids and a lifelong relationship together for sure (in his mind), it doesn’t matter if they marry one week or 4 years before trying to get pregnant. If I had to guess I would say, he doesn’t know that she is the one for him, yet. Or, he knows she’s not. I could be wrong. He could be one of the few philosophically-opposed-to-marriage people. But I think many of the people who talk that talk, just don’t want to marry the person they’re with. They’re not into that person enough, to marry them.
Thus her waiting, if she wants kids, becomes risky. It’s not necessarily a given that he will marry her in “x” years/when they start considering trying for pregnancy/ when she’s already pregnant / when she’s giving birth / after 3 kids are in school. i.e. she needs to understand his timeline. They need to have frank discussions about exactly how long to wait before becoming engaged, how long until they start trying for children, etc. If they end up with insurmountable differences and break up and she starts afresh in the dating world, as other posters have said, the older she is, the more disadvantaged she will be, given the amount of time it takes to find the right person and get to know them before marriage.
I had this exact problem. What I did was give myself an ultimatum of six months to get out of the relationship if he didn’t come up with an engagement ring. It had been 3 years of living together and two years of serious, exclusive dating. So this is what I said: I am not interested in playing house. If this relationship is not moving forward, I need to make other plans. After I dropped that bomb, I never mentioned marriage or commitment or relationship again. Several months passed. On month three, I got a marriage proposal. That was six years ago. If marriage is what you want you need to let that be known from day one. Women who want marriage and a family don’t have time to f*** around, especially if you want your own biological children. And let’s also be honest, men prefer young women. If you spend too much time with one guy, you could miss your chance to find someone else.
I said yes when my now husband “asked me to marry him”. Three years later!! It was the biggest mistake I’ve ever made, and it has made me into a pathetic woman who I hate!!
I never so much as mentioned the word marriage, because I know that as soon as you utter to word from your mouth it’s over, ruined, you will never know if he ever wanted to marry you, or would have asked. I was shocked when he didn’t ask on our one-year anniversary, and I said I’d give it one more year. Throughout that year I told him all the time that something was wrong, and something was missing, and left several times. He still didn’t ask.
I left again, we broke up for months. Finally, he asked me if I wanted to get married, casually, and I looked at him like he was an idiot. He said he always thought I would say no, and that I was always leaving, which is why he didn’t ask. But I was leaving because he didn’t ask.
Then he pretended to propose in an elaborate, on one knee thing, with a ring, I said yes and we were married, but I knew it was a joke. I had to rush to plan a wedding, and we did it privately and invited no one because it’s ridiculous to invite people if you have to wait that long. It was so hard to get excited about what should have been one of the happiest days of my life. Now we’ve been married seven months and I want nothing more than to leave. I feel so stupid – everybody knows we were together that long, everybody knows that he never asked for that long. I feel like a failed myself and didn’t love myself enough to want more.
Women – if a man waits more than two years tops, leave him. Don’t tell him why you’re leaving just leave. You will know for the rest of your life that he didn’t want to marry you. And never, ever, stoop so low as to even say the word marriage to him, or ask if it’s something he is interested in. It is not a woman’s place, it is a man’s.
Take it from me – if it takes three years to get married, you should not be getting married.
I am curious why you accepted his proposal?
Wow, Angela.
I know of two separate couples where the man took 9 years and 10 years respectively to propose, and they are two of the happiest couples I have ever seen.
There is nothing humiliating about a man taking 3 years to propose… perhaps it didn’t work for you, and it was your prerogative to leave. But I think the fact that you didn’t feel good about it when he finally did propose says more about your relationship than the fact that he took 3 years.
There is so much more I can say here, but I feel exhausted just thinking about it. And I really, really feel for you that you finally got what you said you wanted and all you can feel is humiliation, sadness and disappointment. May I suggest that deep personal work would benefit you a great deal.
I have confessed to my husband how this made and makes me feel and he is deeply sorry. I want more for our children. He suggested we get married within six weeks of meeting and I was hesitant so he, in turn, was hesitant. He says he always wanted to ask but was afraid if leave him, especially when I seemed dissatisfied. I was very wild when we met and had broken many hearts, including that of the man I left for him. We will have to work through this but it will always taint how I feel about our relationship and be a source if sadness to me. Luckily, I have some time to figure out what I’ll tell our children. Still I strongly believe that if it takes 3 years to get married, you shouldn’t be getting married.
You probably need to let this one go rather than letting one year of extra waiting for a proposal taint a marriage of 50 years.
And it seems your husband never got the memo that three years was your deadline.
Agreed, marymary. I cannot understand for the life of me why Angela is still eaten up and bitter and twisted because her husband took 3 years to propose.
Also, newsflash Angela: It is healthy to be hesitant about getting married within 6 weeks of meeting each other.
I personally don’t think 3 years is unreasonable. I will not say you are bitter because I can’t make that call. I would say, however that your husband is deeply sorry which should be enough reason to let it go. I am also not sure it will make a bean’s worth of difference to the kids as long as their parents are together.
“I know of two separate couples where the man took 9 years and 10 years respectively to propose, and they are two of the happiest couples I have ever seen.”
And yet this is a terrible bet and one of the greatest predictors of divorce there are. Your two separate couples are EXCEPTIONS. Far more healthy couples get married within 3 years or so… In general, if a guy doesn’t propose in that time, it’s because he doesn’t want to get married.
Angela – I have had a few relationships go off the rails from what I call “Pre-mature proposal”. In 2 cases, I got a proposal in what I thought was way to early in the relationship, but I didn’t say “no”, I just didn’t say “yes”. I just communicated that I was happy the relationship was progressing in that direction, and I’m very happy to be asked, and that we should continue as a couple, and talk about this again in the near future. In both cases, when I said I was ready to talk about the original proposal, one said he had changed his mind, the other denied ever bringing it up.
So when my my ex-husband popped the question at the 6 month mark, I was THRILLED, but I was 50/50 on the fence about saying a “hard yes”. (I could see the proposal coming, he was dropping hints) I really had mixed feelings about becoming “officially engaged”. I did think it was a tad too soon, but because of my past experiences with delaying an answer on too early proposals, I decided to say yes to avoid the problems I had previously. I thought about going for a long engagement, but he wanted to get married soon AND, I was in my early thirties, we wanted a family, so between my past experiences with not saying “yes” the first time I was asked, and my ticking biological time clock I said “yes” to the engagement, and “yes” to a short engagement period.
I can’t call it the worst mistake of my life, because we WERE very happy for 10 years (married for 23) and we have one son who is AWESOME, and we both continue to have a good relationship with him.
I wish I had the answer to how to handle a “pre-mature” proposal, but really I don’t. However, if your ex brought it up 6 weeks into the relationship, and you “hesitated”, you were actually in the clear to bring it up at a more reasonable time, since HE already brought it up first. I would say that breaking up with a man who proposed early in the relationship and you rejected him, and telling him that “something is missing” does not inspire a second proposal.
You also said ” And never, ever, stoop so low as to even say the word marriage to him, or ask if it’s something he is interested in. It is not a woman’s place, it is a man’s.” I agree, the man should bring it up FIRST, but once he has brought it up, him being “first” doesn’t expire. Once he has brought it up, you are free to re-visit the subject, as he has already opened the door on that discussion. And if he gets on one knee and gives you a ring, don’t regard that as a “fake proposal”.
As I said, I really don’t know if or how to handle a “pre-mature” proposal if marriage is what you want, and you really think he could be the one, but it’s too soon to officially say yes. Who knows, maybe that where the concept of “pre-engagement” rings came from.
I hope you can let this go and build a happy marriage with your husband.
Good luck to you.
Because I love him and always wanted him to ask. I thought I could get over it, but I just associate him with sadness and disappointment.
‘The woman who does get married to him will be the one who is patient enough to let him choose her.’
Choose her? What the…? So wait…what…she has to wait to be ‘chosen’???
To hell with that. She’s already chosen him by the sounds of it. He’s happy to stay with her, have a family with her but not to ‘choose’ to give her the legal security?
A history of bad family marriages isn’t a good enough reason (my parents haven’t seen each other since i was 6 months old and I still value it) marriage/legal partnership is still an important part of a relationship. If it’s important to one it should be important to both. Some growing up needs to be done on his part I feel.
Sorry. Rant over. x
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
women are hard wired to want to marry.. to say she just needs to suck it up and face that facts, its like saying to a man,” You can live with me as long as you never look at boobs again or butts”
That is not going to happen unless the guy is GAY.. so lets face it IF you cant get a proposal LEAVE. ASAP…ITs going to drive you nuts. THIS is where I am right now,, been living with a great guy for 10 years and no proposal… my family think I have gone to the dogs for putting up with this.
I am not saying family opinion is paramount.. I am just saying MARRIAGE is important to making me feel like a whole woman.. sorry if that offends.
No woman is “hard wired” to want marriage. We’ve been “enculturated” to want marriage and to believe we’re not “whole women” without marriage. HOGWASH!
You’re a complete woman with or without marriage. You might believe you would be HAPPIER married or more SATISFIED if married. But you’re a “whole” woman (unless hermaphroditic) whether or not you’re married.
Don’t buy in to societal pressure.
If want to get married, find a guy who’ll marry you. But please don’t denigrate yourself for not being married. If anything, denigrate yourself making such a poor choice of partner…one who doesn’t have the same values about marriage that you do.
I’m not in the same position I don’t really want marriage myself but hurt that my partner just never considered I might be the one. He’s been married but for all the wrong reasons…babies making his ex wife happy …but now he hates marriage because he never loved her…it is not a testimony of love I assure you. She still holds on to him and has his name and it’s constantly smeared in my face. Now what I am saying don’t force him…it could ruin a lot of lives in the end. I love my partner but his past his ex wife is smoothering and needy and that may rob him of a woman that loves him for him. I fell for a man that thought he was doing the right thing…now he lives with the consequences for as long as he lives….she got kids too.
Trish, I sympathise with u, but I have to say, it’s like u absolve him of responsibility and blame everything on the other woman. That’s just his side of the story, and personally I don’t blindly trust when someone acts like everything is someone else’s fault, those pple may just have victimist’s mentality.
I myself am dating someone for about 6 mths who seems a bit wary about marriage because he’s seen a lot of his friends get screwed over in divorces, but he and I both know that everyone has to take responsibility for our own decisions. He doesn’t expect me to date him for 5 years without a proposal just because he can’t make up his mind or because he’s scared. If a man wants u to be his wife, he will propose, end of story, and u can’t blame his non-proposing on his ex-wife.
Lastly, if u’re not happy in the situation, pls leave with the faith that u will be happier and in a situation that makes u happier. Life is too short for so much negativity.
First let me say that I have really enjoyed reading all the comments. I found this blog (undated unfortunately so I do not know how old it is) when searching for a similar topic. I am 35, have been in my relationship for 5+ years. I consider it a lovely relationship, I have deep respect and admiration for my boyfriend. I also started a successful small business with him (documentary film production). About 3 years ago I realized I wanted to marry him. For two years I made it known slowly over the course of a few conversations here and there. After 4 years the visa he had to live here in the states was going to expire and I had mentioned in the past that it would make me feel very badly if he waited until right before the visa expired to propose. Well he did, only he didn’t propose because with two months left I spoke up, in tears.
What shocked me was how much it hurt me. I had been willing to wait it out and hoped that by being a great, loving, true partner that he would “come around”. But the whole time it was sending me a message about love (or lack thereof in someway). We decided to refile for his work visa and go to counselling. I really was able to weigh all of the things both Katie and Evan and other wise commentators have expressed here. The big problem was that for all my intelligent reasoning on what was important to me and how to actually achieve my goals, the thing that remained was that it caused a deep pain inside me which I could not shake.
1 year later, we are still together but it feels like its falling apart. I love my boyfriend, we still get along fantastically and support each other in life. But in addition now I am plagued by fear that 35 is too old to start over (and maybe its not too late EMK, but the fear is REAL). I am plagued by fear that my financial security is wrapped together (not because I’m dependent but because we literally have the same source of income and it may not be able to be done if we aren’t together). And most importantly I feel crappy every day when I look in the mirror. The very rational, lawyerly, brain in me used to win most days in evaluating what was important to me, but the very little girl needs-to-be-loved part of me is winning more and more these days.
I waited 18 years, no kids and now I am 50. I wasted my time. I am not angry anymore because It was my fault too. I really look forward to finding a great guy now , but I won’t have kids and I cannot be around them as its too many reminders if all the time I wasted loving a man to whom I was an option. Good luck waiting, but if I had to make the same choice again with what I knew now, I would leave him.
Don’t do it!
Don’t stay with him! Don’t take second best to what you are looking for!
I have been with a guy for nine years….nine! In the beginning he said he would get married when it felt ‘right’, then he said when he could afford a ring, then he brought me a ring and took it back to the store and told me he couldn’t do it…Then he brought me a ring for $400…yes thats right $400 and told me it was the biggest ball ache of his life….Then he told me he would get married when we had kids, then he would get married after we buy a house….Then after we had enough money….Then after he went to his sisters wedding in UK.
My pint, the carrot was forever dangled, and in the end, nothing has changed, I am still sitting here 9 years in and not married. It makes me sick now to think of even marrying him, my resentment toward the man is HUGE. He told me that he only said it because he didn’t want me to leave him, he felt I gave him an ultimatum when I said if we weren’t going to ever marry I felt it best to move on and find a relationship I would be happy with….It wasn’t an ultimatum I simply just knew I would resent him in the end and it wouldn’t work out anyway, and now that is EXACTLY where I am, no marriage, and a lot of resentment.
Don’t do it, trust your instincts, if you believe in marriage, and he doesn’t that is the same as wanting children when the other doesn’t, it takes a very strong love to get through that, as basically you are different people, with difference wants and need’s and there are plenty of people in the world with the same wants and need’s as you.
Don’t settle.
We met on an Internet dating site and spoke on and off for a few years. I really found a connection with him and wanted to meet him in person to see if there was an attraction. There was and we became inseperable after 3 years. I moved to his rural community because he had a good job and it would be easier for me to find one because of my education and work experience. Before we got together he was just starting to get back on his feet. He lost all of his possessions and his beloved pets in his divorce a few years earlier and filed for bankrupcy. When we found a place it was furnished with what I already had or what I purchased. He buys tools and pays for auto repairs, or boy toys. If we ever split he could fit everything he owns in his small car, with the exception of his horses and small horse trailer. Recently I realized that I have made great compromises, I moved across country away from my children, grandchildren and other family members and friends. I lIke where we live and the life we have built together, but if we were to ever split I would likely not have the financial or phisical resources to either move or live on my own here. I love him very much and I believe he loves me but he does not want to get married again. He claims he made this decision when he was seven years old and didn’t want to be married the first time as he believes marriage ruins the relationship. But I feel vulnerable, I also know he has communicated with other women on line, but claims it’s not inappropriate. Recently he angrily agreed to marriage but I don’t want to deal with the inevitable resentment that would come with it. I just don’t know what to do, we started couples therapy but we quit because he said he felt pressured. I feel like I am in a no win situation. Aside from my insecurities we do have a loving, caring relationship; we rarely argue and genuinely enjoy being together. I just feel sad and discounted based on the decision of a seven year old…
M,
He doesn’t want to marry period or he doesn’t want to marry you. It doesn’t matter if he decided this yesterday or when he was 7.
If marriage is THAT important to you, then you need to break up with him and find a man that WILL marry you.
Or you need to accept that what you have now is all you’re going to get if you stay with him…and give up the resentment and drama.
Getting him to change his mind and be happy about it is not one of your options.
If I were you, I’d dump him.
You can’t rewrite history, but you shouldn’t ever have moved so far away from your family without an engagement ring.
You can’t unring the bell. All you can do is trudge forward.
Best of luck to you.
I think that if he doesn’t believe in marriage, she should look somewhere else. He has been honest about it and chances are, if he loses you, he’ll come running back anyway.
It’s up to the woman to decide if she really wants a man who cannot meet her half way with her desires, if marriage is what she wants.
Personally, I would explain that it is important to me that my needs are met too, and if he disregards that, you know that he is just completely selfish.
Don’t agree with that. Too much advice is geared towards how WOMEN need to change THEIR behavior, when it is the man, ultimately, that needs to change.
Women have every right to put a timeline on a marriage proposal. Whether or not he likes it or ignores it doesn’t matter. You have that right. Also, we don’t have to ‘prove’ to a man that he can’t make it without us. You forget that there are men who are quite content the way things are. They are getting what they want.. you in their life.. without having to man up and make a marriage commitment. It is a fact that it takes a man, not a boy, to make a marriage commitment. It is one of the things that separates the boys from the men.
You could be the sweetest, kindest, most physically beautiful woman, and some men will not marry you. It is all about them, not you. Rather than working on how women need to make themselves indispensable to men so that someone will marry them, perhaps it is more practical for women to concentrate on making their OWN money, buying their OWN house, and finding someone worthy of them.
Here is perhaps the hardest thing of all for women to understand and accept : Despite all the true stories, true stories that became films, movies, songs, and books, women CANNOT change a man! A man changes by his own CHOICE! There is no missing ingredient that you need to have to get a man to change his behavior. It isn’t about being more supportive, kinder, nicer, gentler, or quieter. Or prettier. Or thinner.
The famous men who touted that ‘she changed me’ or “After I met her, she saved me”, is not true. That woman was an INFLUENCE on you. She helped you but, ultimately the behavioral change came from within you.
You can’t only think of his feelings ,, if marriage is what you desire then you shouldn’t settle for less just because you love him.. If a man can get wifely benefits while just being a boyfriend then he has no need to marry, and you don’t want to end up being the woman that stays for four plus years and gets nothing at the end, then he finds a new relationship and proposes within a year,
@EMK 30.1, Dan makes a strong point. I would have expected a more convincing argument than a curt dismissal of someone you are not able to answer. It ends up making you come across as a highschool fellow who hasn’t grown up to expand his world view. People make mistakes and admitting to them or opening oneself to different points of views is a healthy mature way to debate. If someone is coming to you for advice, it’s all the more important that you give them possible alternatives so that they can make a sound, informed decision. There’s no way you or any other person can give 100% accurate replies by a blogpost(even if this is your JOB). It’s okay to acknowledge that. A relationship is made of two people, without knowing both viewpoints/motivations, one cannot make projections about someone who has not even communicated with you. OP would get better results by going to a well-trained counselor so that both people can have a healthy dialogue, express their points of views fully and communicate face-to-face the sticky points for both of them. She will know where she stands.
Pretty late in this game. It’s hard when men and women ARE different. I’m divorced, I have a child and I’ve been with my boyfriend for 5 years, who said he knew the moment he married that he shouldn’t have done it, knew he would never marry. Logically every point he makes – makes logical sense but I’m a woman a I feel those emotions and do not try to define the logic of them. He’s always said I have to accept that if I want to be with him. You have to respect someone’s wishes and decisions. I admire him and I respect him. I believe he’s the most amazing man I’ve ever known. But my heart feels and it does hurt. Women will take it as a rejection of their love and devotion to not have him want to marry you and give you the joy of having the last name of the one you love. It would be a honour for me to have his last name. I’d be proud to be his wife. My son would have a home where mom and (step) dad are together as a family. We will always live separately as he built a micro home made for one and does not plan to add to it. He does go out of his way to show he loves me. But at the end of the night when you want to go to sleep next to the one you love with all your heart and wake up next to him and all you get is that loneliness and distance instead it hurts deeply as we feel deeply. I can’t imagine life without him, I truly honestly can’t, but there is always that constant hole and emptiness that you want to fill to complete who you are together. My heart breaks to remain with someone who doesn’t see the value of what I can bring to a marriage to be able to take that chance. Someone who ultimately has his best interest. I’m a mom, putting the needs of my son carries into my relationship. It’s so natural to take care of him. My heart would break without him and my heart breaks with him. I believe in marriage. I believe in completely sharing your life, to wake up every holiday together as a family. He’s truly a great man that I can speak and have done so about how I admire him for so many things that I can list page after page. He’s a good man with a good heart and I love him plsin and simple. But it hurts to not have my belief in marriage acknowledged. Year after year I get electronic gifts that I have been so appreciative of but knowing I’ll never be that woman who gets anniversary flowers or a keepsake piece of jewelry that would outlast a TV. I still don’t know if I can sacrifice what I want in my life and living separately to give him what he needs and expects of a relationship. Women feel, men think. There’s as much to support the woman’s view and much to support the mans view but bottom line it’s the ‘feeling’ of rejection to never be good enough or great enough for him to bend, and face the fact that we want that perfect romantic movie moment of being asked to marry him. It’s like having to give up that happy ever after dream and settle for his happiness and needs above your own. There is no right answer in this discussion. I feel for all of you who want to feel the ultimate commitment of happy ever after and know you love him more than your own dreams that will never come true without even being met halfway. It’s a painful life for the sake of love. I wish you all well in any decisions you make.
Evan, just wanted to tell you I’m facing something similar to this. I googled and thought when I first read this,artucle, you’d be telling her to dump him immediately.
Instead you gave me, a middle-aged woman something to think about.
Right now, due to some crazy financial commitment, my SO doesn’t want to marry. But he wants me in his life, the rest of his life. He spoils me rotten and is a very good man.
I in turn am afraid of marriage but I fear a man scared to have ties financially doesn’t love me the way he claims.
We’ve been together 6 months. Thank you for writing this I’m still deciding what to do. But maybe a few years isn’t such a bad idea.
Reading the comments from women it has once again been proven that women do not view men as the end goal in itself, but they view us rather as tools to achieve something – whether is to get married, to get children, buy a house, etc. – this, basically, seems to me that is their true end goal and they are using intimacy and sex to get that. Meanwhile we, men, very often come view women as the end goal in itself, meaning that we want intimacy, sex, spend quality time with then, look at their smiles, etc as out primary goal when we try to attract women and enter relationships.
Yup, like manosphere has said, it is US, men, who truly are romantics in dating. And women are, to be honest, basically prostitutes. They care more about status that are being provided for them by men (marriage, family, children, money, house and whatnot) than about men themselves.
F*ck that. I have bought a “RealDoll” (look it up. You will be surprised at how hot a doll can be, hotter than 95% of women my age of about 32 years old… Admitedly, it is not a perfect option, but, still, good enough, considering the alternative of being pressured into marriage, being potentially divorced, hence, losing our house, 401k, cars, kids, stuck paying alimony and child support and whatnot) and it made my life better. I did not have the need ask women out for a couple of years now since I have owned my doll, named Jenny, and after coming back from work instead of chassing tail, I am able just to relax, drink some beer, play video games, meet up with my buddies few times per week and be content with my life. Few of my buddies have noticed that I no longer have the anxiety and sexual *thirst* anymore, and had asked me about it. Now 3 of them are also enjoying this lifestyle. And none of them misses chasing tail anymore and they view modern marriage as a scam.
What can I say, ladies… MGTOW
What can I say, Disaffected… Sad.
Yes, Evan, sad indeed, but thats their nature of hypergamy. Can’t really blame them, to be honest. We, men, have either to accept that to women we are going to be grunts and status providers, which is something we will have to provide in exchange of sex and emotional intimacy provided by them, or reject this conditionality and modern type of prostitution and reject women altogether, possibly in favor of aforementioned “RealDolls”.
But yea, Evan, like you said, sad indeed.
Evan,
Dissafected has proven that he’s oblivious to your sarcasm.
DissafectedWithDating,
Let me start by saying that I do not share your view of women in general. There are some that treat intimacy as a means to an end. That includes some women who post to this blog. On dozens of occasions I have pointed out to these women that it is not in a man’s best interest to enter into a relationship with women who share that attitude.
In my experience, most women treat intimacy as one of the goals of a relationship. That has certainly been true of all of the women I have dated.
DissafectedWithDating said:
“they view us rather as tools to achieve something — whether is to get married, to get children, buy a house, etc.”
My wife owned her own home long before I met her. My wife doesn’t want kids. She got her tubes tied at least 20 years before I met her. My wife and I were intimate long before we got married, long before we got engaged, and months before we explicitly agreed to date each other exclusively.
My wife has sex because she enjoys sex. That’s the same reason most women have sex. She enjoys the friendship and companionship for its own sake. That’s also true for most of the other women I know.
However, I have to agree that a RealDoll is an excellent solution for you … and other men like you. You don’t have to put up with women. Women don’t have to put up with you. Everyone benefits … including the manufacturers of the RealDoll.
Welcome back, Karl. You’ve been missed.
Just a reminder to put one space between paragraphs – makes it easier to read.
It’s a slow week at work.
Same here.
I wouldn’t say Evan’s response to my first comment was sarcastic. I would say it was filled with pity. And I was not oblivious to this aspect of his response whatsoever. I just chose to use the shallow ambiguity of what he meant for my own amusement. 🙂
And when we talk about negative aspects that women possess in the dating world, once again I see the magical word “some” as in “not all women are like that”. And, honestly, yea, I agree. Indeed, not all women are like that. But I will dare to say that most of them are. Why do I dare to state this? Because using sex and intimacy to gain status (financial, familial (is that a word?), social, etc) is in woman’s nature, just like it is in our nature to admire young women.
I am also inclined to believe you when you say that your wife has enough money, has house, agreed to have sex with you early, yada yada yada. Still, that doesn’t change their hypergamous nature.
Dissafected with dating said:
“I agree. Indeed, not all women are like that. But I will dare to say that most of them are. Why do I dare to state this? Because using sex and intimacy to gain status (financial, familial (is that a word?), social, etc) is in woman’s nature, just like it is in our nature to admire young women.”
First, familial is a word. And you spelled it correctly. Second, I assume that you’re basing your conclusions on evo-psych. Is that correct?
From an evolutionary standpoint, humans are one of a small handful of species that practices recreational sex. Since we share that trait with bonobos, it is fairly likely that males and females have been engaging in sex for pleasure longer than we have actually existed as the homo sapiens species. You seem to be conveniently ignoring any evidence of human nature that contradicts your conclusion.
Furthermore, from an evo-psych perspective, using toilet paper is a completely unnatural behavior. As a species, we’ve been practicing monogamy far longer than we’ve been wiping our asses with paper. However, I think the overwhelming majority of modern American women use toilet paper … and the same women would be totally repulsed by the idea of using their hands instead. Going a bit broader, scientists are slowly moving toward a consensus that nurture is as influential as nature. You’re completely discounting the fact that we (for generations) have grown up in monogamous households, frequently with parents who met in college, or high school, and therefore are of equal age and social status … and through observation have been innately conditioned to believe that is the natural order of things.
You appear willing to ignore any evidence that contradicts your conclusion. That reminds me of a quote. DissafectedWithDating, you may find your claim “daring”. I don’t.
Evan, it may be easier for you to read this with single spacing, but that’s not true on my browser.
Well, this RealDoll sounds strange to me but I have to admit, Karl R might be right that it could benefit certain men.
There’s even a product sort of like this for women–a “boyfriend pillow”. I never had one but saw one advertised in a women’s magazine years ago (yes, it’s an actual thing). Personally, I never got one and I prefer human contact (especially my flesh-and-blood boyfriend). But if anyone wants dolls instead, to each their own.
I just lost a hour of my life or more reading through all these comments. I’m dying to know what came of Katie and her dude.
All those statistics in the comments section around area 2 and 3…. YAWN. What was her freaking argument? Booooring.
My 2 cents…
If you’re with someone who doesn’t want to get married, and you do, either stay with them or don’t. You stay, you accept that you might not get married. You don’t stay, you will probably find someone out there who will. However. Even partner’s who say they want marriage DON’T always put a ring on it… there’s a silver lining to the honesty given by either partner to this crazy question.
Some of us marry the absolute wrong guy and have his beautiful children and give him their life. I would recommend strongly against this. Do this with the RIGHT guy. Know who you are and what you want. Go after that exactly. If you’re willing to settle for less, that’s your own damn fault. Life is too short for the wait and sees.
I’ve been with the best man I’ve ever known for almost 2 years… we have lived together for 1. We both were getting divorced when we met. Do I want to marry him? Sometimes, yes. Does he? Probably not…. his divorce was worse than my own. But honestly, I just want to be happy. And I am. I have children though so I’m not really tied down by that dreaded time clock. He has no kids… he’s deciding to stay with me… if I can’t give him children when he decides he’s ready, that’s his fault. Not mine and it’s an issue that has been aired.
Good luck, sweet Katie.
Hi. I gotta chime in. I believe in marriage. I also believe in divorce if the situation becomes so broken that the marriage does not function. Would I recommend marriage or divorce……no. My point is, it is such a personal decision. In my case, I actually need to be married to the man I love and want to be with on a long-term basis or ’til death. I can’t exactly explain that. It just makes me happy, makes me feel secure and loved, and makes me want to be even a better partner. Would I do it for a public reason…no. Would I do it because of my religious beliefs…yes. So, if I met someone and they didn’t feel or think as I do, but say they love me and want to be with me, I say that eventually, this issue will cause a breakup if you can’t resolve it within a year of dating. That is a reasonable amount of time to decide if a partner is a long-term partner or not. It is not that complicated. So, if you can’t come to a decision by the one year mark, and you want to get married and the other doesn’t, you stay in the relationship at your own risk. And, there may never be a happy ending. You have to face that and face the consequences. FYI – I am speaking from experience and also based on my own therapy.
Im amazed to find this, really. I’m Angela. I forgot I’d even written it and not because it was so ing ago but so removed from my current experience. He proposed, it didn’t feel right, I married him, I left him within a year. I moved to a very foreign country and began the process of healing and what’s shocking isn’t just that I wrote such angry things but that I’d deluded myself enough to think that this tiny issue of a marriage proposal was so pertinent to the things at hand. What I’ve found since instead, was that my husband was mean. He was mean and oblivious to what I wanted and who I was before I married him. The energy, the feeling of it, was wrong, and instead of trusting my inherent voice and my instinct, I wrote in to this forum and I rationalized and I told myself it was such a small issue as the years it took for a proposal when it had nothing to do with it and it seldom does. It’s not what we do but how.
I feel so much better now – more whole, more alive and free and comfortable with myself and excited about my future. It’s been ten months now since I left him, and it took a full eight to get to this place, but now, I’m so much lighter than I ever could have been.
It wasn’t that he didn’t ask me to marry him, but that he made me feel bad, sometimes in subtle ways I couldn’t quantify or put my finger on but they were just as real and in some ways more so. That was what I should have shifted my attention toward.
And I’m so glad, I’m so so so glad I left. It was the hardest thing I’ve done, a rebirth, a agonizing, horrible wretched year, but now, from here, the skies are so damn bright.
Katie,
I’m not sure how old this post is, or what you ended up deciding, but I had to comment because I was in the EXACT same situation as you. My bf and I were together for five years before marriage was brought up (we were very young when we started dating), and he told me he didn’t believe in marriage, but wanted a committed, monogamous relationship, and wanted children some day. At this point, we had had a happy and committed relationship for five years, one of those years being long distance. I told him that I was fine simply being together for the time being, but that I wanted to be married before we had children. He agreed, and so we compromised. We moved in together, and now, six years later, we both feel ready to have children and are planning a wedding this year. He still believes marriage is an antiquated institution, but he is doing it to make me happy.
Evan gave very good advice. If you really want to be with him, be patient. He has said he’ll get married to make you happy, which shows how much he cares about you. If you have a wonderful relationship with this man, and it is worth it to stay, then stay. I think you would regret it if you gave up on a loving relationship just because he isn’t entirely thrilled about marriage. Most men really aren’t, anyway.
Believe in love! Good luck!
I don’t know how old this is, but here’s my two cents. Don’t wait another 3 years. You can’t get back years of your life. If you want to be married and he doesn’t, then you’re incompatible. Why would he not want to marry you even if you never had kids? Your desires are just as important as his. Don’t let him diminish what you need, to please himself.
It’s really hard for me, as a woman that is the bread winner in my relationship, to read all the posts that immediately imply that women push for marriage so they can be financially taken care of. Guess what people……women have jobs too, women get taken advantage of in marriages too, and most women under 30 that I know make more money than their significant others. So stop saying a women gains all in a marriage and a man gains nothing, it is an old way of thinking and needs to be stopped.