Is Tinder THAT Bad?

Why Dating Apps Are Bad For Your Love Life

Much has already been written about this viral article from Vanity Fair about the rise of Tinder and the proliferation of hook-up culture. If  you don’t have fifteen minutes, you can get the gist of the piece just by reading the subheaders:

“As romance gets swiped from the screen, some twentysomethings aren’t liking what they see.”

“Sex has become so easy.”

“Hit it and quit it.”

“Boom-Boom-Boom. Swipe.”

“Too easy.”

“The Morning After”

“People are gorging.”

The writer, Nancy Jo Sales, offers a  sensational and searing  look at how Tinder and texting has allowed men to dispense with courtship. For many people – especially millennials – dating is ancient history. Why talk on the phone with a strange woman  for an hour and agree to buy her a pricey dinner, when you can text her, have her come over, sleep with her, and not have to commit any time, energy or emotion?

For many people – especially millennials – dating is ancient history.

To me, Tinder is online dating – without the depth. That’s a joke, because online dating is shallow to begin with. But at least there’s a written profile. At least you have to exchange a few emails first. At least there’s something potentially substantive in a written profile. Not so on Tinder, which is, essentially HotOrNot combined with GPS technology. Which is why it doesn’t seem like much of a stretch to suggest that it’s the single greatest contribution to straight hookup culture  that we’ve ever seen.

I’m no Pollyanna about hookup culture. I partook in the riches offered to me by Match, Nerve, JDate and so on for nearly 10 years. But I was never  a sociopath about it. If  you read the Vanity Fair piece, that seems to be what this sort of technology generates –  men (and women) who are acting largely without conscience.

Listen, technology doesn’t “make” people act a given way; it only enables it. But that enabling is pretty powerful stuff. Much has been written about how smartphones enable us to be connected all the time – and inadvertently rewire our brains. When I can’t stop scrolling my Facebook newsfeed at 1am, commenting on others’ posts, looking for “likes” on my own, well, it’s clear that something has fundamentally changed – and not necessarily for the better.

Technology doesn’t “make” people act a given way; it only enables it. But that enabling is pretty powerful stuff.

New York Magazine wrote a rebuttal to the Vanity Fair piece, which pointed out that the author was overly reliant on anecdotes as opposed to big data. They say the author was looking for evidence to support her thesis and found it. They say that plenty of people find true love on Tinder. They cite a respected author, Jean Twenge, who reports that millennials are having less sex. And yet…

I’m inclined to side with Sales and Vanity Fair. I feel like New York Magazine – specifically, the author, Jesse Singal, is also caught up in his own confirmation bias. In other words, he doesn’t want to believe that what Sales wrote about Tinder and millennials is true so he nibbles around the edges to try to refute it. The data that Singal is looking for can only be provided by Tinder – asking people to self-report their experience on the site and how many sex partners they’ve had, etc. But reporting that Tinder is not a problem because overall, millennials are having less sex really seems to intentionally miss the point.

If you’re a woman who wants to be courted and wants to save sex for boyfriends instead of strangers, you can do so. It’s just a lot harder on Tinder.

The point is that if you’re a woman who is looking for a real relationship on Tinder, you’d better be prepared to deal with a whole bunch of right-swiping men who have  more access to NSA sex than the 80’s bar scene or the 90’s online dating scene ever could have produced. That doesn’t mean that all millennials are partaking; it does mean that those who Tinder for love may have every right to question the effectiveness of the medium.

If you’re a woman who wants to be courted and wants to save sex for boyfriends instead of strangers, you can do so. It’s just a lot harder on Tinder.

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  1. 1

    As someone who has tried other kinds of online dating and recently tried Tinder, I actually think Tinder causes me to give more men a chance – men who I otherwise would have written off because their entire online dating profile talked about sports or fishing or something.

    You get out of Tinder what you put into it – if you have cleavage photos and talk about sex, expect raunchy pictures. If you don’t want those pictures,  unmatch  the dudes who do that. It’s not hard.

    Tinder is really just an introduction service. It’s like going to a party where I  chat with a friend of a friend for 30 minutes. If I  don’t like them, I move on. The only thing it changes is how many single men I meet. As a woman, I still set the expectations for how I allow a man to treat me – and you taught me that, Evan. I think Tinder is very compatible with your dating advice.

    1. 1.1

      Tinder is really just an introduction service. It’s like going to a party where I  chat with a friend of a friend for 30 minutes. If I  don’t like them, I move on. The only thing it changes is how many single men I meet. As a woman, I still set the expectations for how I allow a man to treat me — and you taught me that, Evan. I think Tinder is very compatible with your dating advice.

      Thank you @m! I agree 100%. I think here it’s important to clarify that a technological tool’s design isn’t always going to universally dictate its use. I haven’t been keeping up with the commentary on Tinder that much since its beginning but in my country’s dating culture it has caught on with my age demographic (late 30’s early 40’s) in a big way. It’s fresh format compared to our rather dated, local version of Match – which requires a paid subscription to do just about anything, and OKC hasn’t caught on here in the way it has overseas.
      People do use Tinder for actual dating, the same way some of my guy friends admittedly use our version of Match to find someone to have sex with (but don’t want to appear skeezy – and yes I’ve called them out on this!)
      It got to the point when I was reading profiles on our local Match that I felt like I was reading a resume. Tinder was more random, fun and light hearted – as @m pointed out, like going to a party. I texted back and forth with some very cute and interesting men. I only once had someone propose to meet indicating he was only up for a ONS, and in that instance I happily took him up on it (just the mood I was in!)   Only one guy was rude so I just unmatched him.

      And m is right, it’s super easy to multidate on Tinder if you haven’t yet met someone special.
      I’ve only been on one date IRL from Tinder after about a month of messaging him (due to schedules and other guys I was dating from OKC). That guy is now my boyfriend. I swiped because he was cute, but I would have also talked to him at a party for the same reason. I didn’t have much to go on in his profile, but it turned out we had a lot in common, similar values and were both looking for serious relationships. We met and had great chemistry and I started putting Evan’s advice into place about exclusivity etc. Luck had a lot to do with it but we never would have met without Tinder as we have completely different social circles and routines.
      A girlfriend of mine has met the love of her life and they are now living together – they are both 47. She calls him her “Tinder surprise”…awwwww.

    2. 1.2

      Agree completely, the reason Tinder is successful because it is literally the easiest and most convenient way to see the single people in your city.   OD is still a lot of work, and women seem to hate it just as much as men.   Tinder is fast and efficient, if you have mutual matches, you can proceed to chatting or meeting up.   Women wonder where they can meet men, well all the men are on Tinder, no more wasting time going to sketchy bars or getting turned down at the club.   One of the differences that men and women have in their approach to dating strangers, is that women seem excessively fearful of dating strange men.   Sure, some men are also scared of talking to women, but for the most part men enjoy talking to multiple women at the same time.   In some ways, it seems that women are also overwhelmed by the number of men available online or on Tinder.   But I believe that its a good thing for women to be more confident in their sexuality and open-minded in dating.   Technology has helped women find not just more choices, but the right choice.

      1. 1.2.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        “Women seem excessively fearful of dating strange men.” Women get sexually assaulted and stalked. Men, for the most part, don’t. Until you can understand that a woman has a right to be wary of strangers, you are not really getting where women are coming from. Your job is to win her over – and put in the time to make her comfortable so she’s not fearful. If you refuse to do that because you think courtship is about texting/meeting/sex ASAP, you will probably alienate many women.

        1. jon

          There are some very specific flaws in the assumption of courtship in modern times.   First, modern men and women are generally very poor, especially for the under 30 set with huge student loans.   Its not that men don’t want to take women out to fancy dinners and court them, but men don’t have the time or money to do so.   Second, if men and women are delaying marriage to 30-35, to focus on their careers and making money, then its safe to presume that many men under 30 do not want marriage or monogamy, primary because they are focusing on their career and saving money.   So, men who are 30-40 start getting serious about marriage, and then they want to date women who are younger.   Third, a lot of men, especially men under 30 want to be treated as equals to women, and the idea that a man must pay for everything and initiate calls, plans seems extremely outdated and patriarchal.   A lot of men accept strong feminist idealism and would feel insulted if a woman expected a man pay for every meal and decide plans.   If more women claimed extreme poverty, then more men would adopt old-fashioned courtship rules.   Technology has allowed men many options for sex, but a man chooses to stay with a woman if he enjoys the friendship with her outside of sex, or if she is extremely attractive.   A man’s goal may be sex, but if a woman wants a relationship, she might want to have a tangible goal of time, such as 3 months or more.

        2. Amelia

          That is exactly what is missing in the approach men are taking these days! Waiting to meet the right type of man takes patience and a whole lot of weeding out. They are out there but it takes meeting more men which takes more time and effort. I have become more open-minded and have been courted by the ones I would previously not have considered “my type” or the attraction is not very strong. It sure beats compromising those ideals just for a hot guy!

        3. Caroline R

          (Caroline breathes deep sigh as she is in the company of someone who understands her, and it is so refreshing)


          You soooo get us.

          You are a Treasure.

          From Caroline (who has been both sexually assaulted and stalked).

      2. 1.2.2

        I’m not “overwhelmed by the number of men available online or on Tinder”.   I’m underwhelmed by the quality of men and the rarity of men looking for a serious relationship.   

        I’m super confident in my sexuality, and have had my share of casual sex.   But that is not what I am looking for.

        My experience has been that meeting immediately (which men on Tinder often expect) rarely leads to more than an awkward situation.   My best online dating experiences have involved a considerable amount of communication before the date (about a week or so).   I guess there are a few men on Tinder who will be patient enough to develop a connection and learn enough about me to give it a better chance,   but mostly guys are all obsessed with meeting ASAP.

        1. Caroline R


          Interesting points.

          I’m reminded of my recent feelings after being chatted-up by men who then treat me like a booty call, the texts end up with them trying to charm me into meeting up later that night, at their house, or somewhere else. They lured me in with the promise of taking me out to XYZ cafe for coffee — an actual date, & the reason I gave them my number, but it becomes just sex that’s on offer.

          I feel like my real life has become Tinder, and I can’t stop it. I want an actual date not a hook up. Cheap and meaningless holds zero attraction for me.

          It’s harsh when a guy makes plans and then ghosts. I don’t try to contact him to clarify, the message is loud and clear. It’s harsh when the guy texts you “I’m out. Lose this number”.

          At least the last one made it easier for me to do.

    3. 1.3

      completely agree with you! I’d met men through “better” sites and in person… none of who courted me at all. I met my now live-in boyfriend on Tinder and he was romantic and caring from the beginning b/c we truly did connect. It is what you make of it.

  2. 2

    Oh, one additional thing: the fact that Tinder gives me options has been hugely helpful. As I start dating someone, I can still see, in a very visual way, that the guy I am dating right now is not my only option. It keeps me from feeling hopeless if things aren’t working out with Guy #1. No guy is real until he’s your boyfriend, right?

  3. 3

    Evan, Have you ever tried signing up for tinder to conduct your own independent research? I suggest you try it, because I can tell you from my own experience, and the experience of my friends, that the Vanity Fair piece is way off. I’m 33 and live in a big city. I tried tinder last year and went on about ten dates, and none of those women were looking to just hook up. They were all just busy professionals and grad students who were using the app for the same reason women use match or ok cupid–to meet new people for dates and to cast a wide net. The only thing tinder does is take away the uncertainty associated with the potential lack of mutual attraction. You know you’re messaging someone who swiped right. The only people I’ve encountered who use the app for NSA sex are working girls who are trying to land new clients. In fact, the reason men swipe right so often is because tinder is still a sellers market-I know of no guys who are able to use it to generate a constant stream of women looking for casual sex. When it comes to ONS, I’ve actually had more success in bars.


    Regarding the issue of courting, I’m not trying to rehash the courting thread, but you seem to be advocating that guys spend an hour on the phone with a stranger and then buy her a pricey meal. I don’t know why any guy would do this since you yourself have pointed out that 98% of first dates go nowhere. It’s a waste of time and resources. There are better ways to get to know someone and size up mutual attraction and chemistry other than feeding her. You advocate that women should hold off on sex until commitment to safeguard their emotions. Fair enough. But guys need to safeguard resources, especially if they’re going on multiple dates. It makes perfect sense that we should hold off on the ‘courting’ until after something substantial has been established.

    1. 3.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      “Regarding the issue of courting, I’m not trying to rehash the courting thread, but you seem to be advocating that guys spend an hour on the phone with a stranger and then buy her a pricey meal. I don’t know why any guy would do this since you yourself have pointed out that 98% of first dates go nowhere. It’s a waste of time and resources. There are better ways to get to know someone and size up mutual attraction and chemistry other than feeding her. You advocate that women should hold off on sex until commitment to safeguard their emotions. Fair enough. But guys need to safeguard resources, especially if they’re going on multiple dates. It makes perfect sense that we should hold off on the ‘courting’ until after something substantial has been established.”

      This could be its own blog post, so let’s refute it, point by point:

      1. “You seem to be advocating that guys spend an hour on the phone with a stranger and then buy her a pricey meal.” I advocate that men and women get to know each other for about a week by email and phone before meeting in person. This allows them both to screen out for obvious personality defects: angry, negative, stupid, perverted, selfish, inconsistent, flaky, etc. This is not a tremendous amount of time, in the grand scheme of things: a half dozen emails, a half-hour phone call or two…should take about 90 minutes… Very similar to the amount of time you’d take on a blind date with a total stranger. My way, you filter out a decent percentage of losers. Your way, you go out on a lot more shitty blind dates.

      2. “You yourself have pointed out that 98% of first dates go nowhere.” I have done no such thing. You are clearly exaggerating to make a point. I think it stands to reason, logically, that if you are invested in someone, excited about someone, and trust someone BEFORE the date, you are more likely to have a good date than if you swiped right and met a stranger. I advocate for fewer bad dates and better first dates. Of course, chemistry matters. But I’d rather go on a Friday night date with a nice girl I’ve been flirting with all week but am not attracted to, than to do out with three potential nightmares whose only qualification is “she’s pretty!” Most people date like you, Shaukat. Instant gratification. Move fast. What’s in it for me? I don’t judge it. I just think there’s a better way. Your way may result in a 98% failure rate. My failure rate will be lower because I have a screening process in place.

      3. “It’s a waste of time and resources.” No, it’s an INVESTMENT of time and resources. I understand why you disagree. But that’s because you’re approaching from a place of selfishness and failure. If you assume each date is going to suck, that will make you want to give LESS. But that’s the wrong mindset for dating. You want to be GENEROUS, not cheap. POSITIVE, not negative. WARM, not cold. TRUSTING, not doubtful. CONFIDENT, not insecure. What does the generous, positive, warm, trusting, confident guy do on a date? Exactly what I mentioned: make an investment in the woman for a few days before meeting, screen out any bad dates that way, and feel good about spending $50 on a couple of drinks on Friday night. Your way? “Hey, let’s meet quickly for coffee for a half-hour so I can see if you’re hot.” That’s a short sighted selfish attitude that is a self-fulfilling prophesy. Your dates suck because you’re taking total strangers on fast, cheap, shitty dates because of your “resources”. Dude, I dated for 10 years on little more than $30K/year. It can be done.

      4. “It makes perfect sense that we should hold off on the ‘courting’ until after something substantial has been established.” Ah, there it is. The MGOTW fallacy that has been repeated so often that everyone believes it. Here’s the other side. You don’t GET the quality woman by dating your way. The quality woman is going to see the guy who is swiping right, texting and demanding a meeting right away as selfish, stingy, short-sighted, demanding, and not at all attentive to what makes women happy. In other words, when you “court” women your way, the only women who stick around are a) women with low-self-esteem who think that they deserve to be treated dismissively or b) women who are masculine and think that the best way to date is to go out with a stranger to see if there’s instant chemistry. Women with higher self-worth are going to seek men who make an investment TO get into something serious…not men who think they should get sex for free and THEN make an investment of time/energy/money.

      In other words, you have it 180 degrees backwards. The guys who do the best in dating are the ones who give women what they want. The women who do the best in dating are the ones who give guys what they want. You can control the former, and you can choose the latter. Seems to me like you’re more focused on what YOU want than what women want – and a quality woman is going to have no tolerance for it.

      1. 3.1.1
        Not Jerry

        EMK, we are completely in agreement about a screening process.   No kidding!   I spend a few days on email, then a couple phone calls, and then if there is interest, we might be able to meet IRL.

        I have a woman friend who has been on hundreds of initial meet & greets from the dating sites.   99.5% go nowhere.

        I told her to screen better, but she prefers to do that in person. I guess if they are paying, OK.   Not for me!

      2. 3.1.2

        Evan you are right on.

        1. R.C.

          YESSS! A man that gets it!

      3. 3.1.3

        …and for the hundredth time I am so glad I am  happily married to a true gentleman rather than some of these low investment men here! Gotta thank you again for that.   Just celebrated our second wedding anniversary.   Dating in the world today just looks worse and worse.

        1. Chance

          Marie, I can tell from your posting history that you definitely believe men should adhere to traditional gender roles that result in obligations for them.   That’s fine.   If you don’t mind my asking, what gender roles do you believe women should adhere to that result in obligations?

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          I don’t understand your question, but my answer would be that if it’s a man’s job to make an effort to court, it’s a woman’s job to vocally appreciate his efforts, demonstrate that she’s attracted to him and let him know that she’s open to seeing him again.

      4. 3.1.4

        Evan could you do another blog post on courting? I know you have 3 already, but I was thinking if you explained the benefits that guys get from courting a woman, guys wouldn’t fight it so much. And it would help guys like me, endure all the pains of courting women, because we will see the big picture and not dwell on the rejections so much.

        The men who post on here fighting the idea of courtship like it is the second coming of the black plague, never seem to really be bothered by the money issue (in my opinion), it always seems that their real issue with courtship is FEAR.

        From what I have read from the male commentators in all three of your previous post on courtship plus the many other times that guys have berated courtship on various other post or in real life is that, THEY ARE AFRAID TO HOPE.

        They are afraid of going out on 2 or 3 dates with a woman and really liking her, just for her to decide that she is not into him. It is kind of like how men are afraid to approach women in real life because of fear of rejection. The male commentators who scream courting is a waste, seem to be suffering from the same insecurity.

        To be fair, I have seen many men get rejected by dozens of women for years, and when a woman finally says yes, he starts to have hope. Hope that he will finally not be alone, hope that he can share his time, money, life, and heart with a woman who he finds attractive and she is attracted to him back, but then she after numeral (good in his opinion) e-mails,   phone conversations and 2 or 3 dates, tells him that she is not interested in a relationship with him. Evan wouldn’t you be jaded by the idea of courtship after all of that if you guy with average looks, body, income, and height? You have endured it for years and over 300 dates, so I am hoping you could write something to help us out.

        After all this, it seems like most, women, dating coaches, and relationship books all tell men, that they aren’t real men for letting this affect them. A alpha man would just shrug it off. It is the man’s job to do all the work, and women should just mirror his actions, which translates into sitting back and letting him do all the work. This is great advice if the woman is into the man, because she will be fun and engaging, and excited to talk to him on the phone and on dates. But what about the women who are unsure or who really aren’t but they don’t want to spend Friday night sitting in the house? How many times must a guy get rejected for a 1st or 2nd date, before he starts to wonder what is he to gain from courtship?

        It seems like women are the main ones who come out on top in courtship. If she doesn’t like a man all she has to do is say No! If she isn’t sure if she likes him, she just has to let him do all the work, the calling, the asking out, the planning for dates, picking her up, paying, and most importantly, making sure she is entertained; But after after all his time and energy spent “investing”, she can still say no after 2 or 3 dates. Again, to the guy who has 4 or 5 women lined up for dates this is nothing, but for the average guy, he is lucky to find at least one women who he is attracted to that says yes to him asking her out. Even the average looking woman doesn’t have to deal with this, especially online.

        From the beginning she hold all the power, he isn’t sure if she likes him, she is sure  he likes her or he would not have asked her out. He isn’t sure if she went out with him because she liked him or because she was bored (I have seen many women do this until a guy she really wants comes along), because she never initiates phone calls, but she knows he likes her because he is always calling her first, asking if she wants to go out again first. And if the guy feels insecure or unsure that she wants him, then he isn’t a real man, because a Alpha man wouldn’t care if a girl he likes makes him feel insecure and unsure around her.

        Evan I guess I am asking could you write a blog post for normal guys. Or what advice can you give a normal guy about courtship, when every woman hasn’t read finding “Why he disappeared” and doesn’t know that you have to give a guy positive signals to encourage him to continue to court her? That it is okay to keep her options open or be unsure about a guy, but don’t even waste his time saying yes to a date if she is going to make him feel like she only sees him as a Friend, someone to hang with until the hot guy she really wants comes along. Or even worse, to flirt with and say yes to a date with a average guy, and then a about 2 weeks into him courting her, a more attractive, more successful, taller guy contacts her online, so she drops the average guy either directly, by disappearing, or the slow fade away.

        All the current advice out there now for men is to just “man up” and soldier on, every woman is worth taking the risk of another rejection for, sure you’ve gotten ten No’s and 3 heartbreaks but I “could be” a yes.

        Evan and all the female readers, if you can’t understand all of that, try this analogy, if you bought a ship in a bottle set and was really really excited about building it, you spend time everyday working on it. You didn’t care about the time you spent that you could do other things, or the money spent for extra pieces, it was worth it. It was an “investment”, so you focused more on this then on other hobbies. But one day you discover that the ship is broken, not because of something you did, but because the glue that came with the set didn’t hold and all your joy, excitement, money, time, and work have come to nothing, and even worse, because you neglected other hobbies to focus just on this ship, the work put into your other hobbies are gone!!! Are you saying that you would not feel bitter, angry, and maybe even put off by the whole idea of building another ship?

        This is what the average man in dating goes through with courting women. The attractive, tall guys or the young guy who lacks dating experience sees no problem with courting, because they haven’t went through the heartache of trying to build something just to repeatedly have it broken in their face. If a guy just chases sex with something like Tinder, then at least the rejection isn’t as emotional as with actually having a woman let you know that you are not handsome, tall, successful, or whatever enough for her to be with you. You are not good enough… But thanks for the meal!

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          “If you explained the benefits that guys get from courting a woman, guys wouldn’t fight it so much.”

          You get a quality woman with self-esteem who appreciates you. If you court a woman and she doesn’t appreciate you, she’s not a quality woman.

          Your solution: “don’t court” only produces sub-optimal solutions: you don’t treat women well but expect them to treat you well.

          My dating advice to EVERYBODY: treat the opposite sex well and you stand a chance of being treated well in return. Text a woman once a week, don’t plan in advance, don’t spend a dollar, and insist on having sex by Date 3 – and the best women are gonna run the other way. Which is exactly what you’re seeing.

          Next, your belief that women hold all the power is a typical false response. Here’s how you have power: if you don’t like her, don’t call her. The end. You make a false case that women KNOW you like them because you’re calling them. Bullshit. Men call women all the time just to get laid when they have no intention of being a boyfriend.

          Instead of complaining that women don’t read my stuff, how about you conduct yourself like a confident guy? Reach out. Call. Plan. Play. Be a leader. Make a move. Follow up. All your time is spent telling women what they’re doing wrong. Doesn’t that sound just like women telling men what YOU do wrong? Sure does.

          EVERYBODY who dates gets rejected. Men get rejected when they ask her out. Women get rejected when he doesn’t call after the date. No one has “the power”.

          My message to you is the same as my message to every man and every woman who struggles with love: you can spend all your time being bitter, complaining and telling the opposite sex to change… or you can see what you’re doing wrong to elicit better results. If someone was overweight, he can yell at McDonalds for putting too much saturated fat in his burgers…or he could stop eating at McDonalds. Your worldview is to yell at McDonalds. Mine is to exercise some self-awareness and self-control.

          Dating is a self-fulfilling prophesy. Men who get angry, take things personally, blame the opposite sex, refuse to be warm, generous and trusting, will remain unhappy. Women who do the same seal their own fates.

          So yes, be a man. Court women. Carry yourself with confidence. Don’t tell women that it’s their job to court you. Because it’s clearly not working for you.

        2. DeeGee

          Evan, well said.
          I am going to re-read this post often.

        3. Adrian

          Thanks for your reply Evan.

          By the way, I was just asking, I wasn’t attacking or blaming women or talking against courting, and I respect your wisdom and blog or I would not have sought help from you, but I am sure you were just speaking in general and not accusing me personally since I never condemned courting or mentioned as you said, me seeing women run the other way because I expect sex on date 3???

          I don’t remember mentioning that I spend all my time telling women what they are doing wrong, as you said??? I agree I should take steps to change, which is why I asked your advice, I’m not sure where you got that my world view is to yell at McDonalds or demand that it is women who should change???

          Again I was just asking for advice, and you gave it, so thanks. I am going to assume that you get attacked so much that your automatic response is to assume the male asker has a ulterior motive or you think I am a MGOTW (whatever that means) guy. But I am just a guy who wanted sincere advice.

          I hope you remember that not every man who has been repeatedly rejected and strung along by the women he tried to court is a female hating person, or a guy who just wants to use women for sex. I just wanted some tips on how to continue to push forward with courting after being strung along and rejected so many times. Not all women are like that, if I said that I was wrong. I can’t control women, I can only control my actions and change what I do, if I said differently, again Evan I apologize, I was wrong.

          But thanks none the less, I get the message, “shut-up, and soldier on, showing pain after being rejected dozens of times is not being a man, and a man is always confident”.

      5. 3.1.5

        I have to admit. I’m struggling with this concept of courting a woman you don’t know. When I’m single I tend to casually date a few women and after a while focus on the one that truly feel something for.

        So I think I agree more with the commentator. Dating has gone more and more casual. From bars to online to simple swipes on my mobile. If men are suppose to court that would mean the women you are courting are being courted by multiple men at the same time.(Since it’s not exclusive for a while in today’s dating world.) Sorry but nothing special about that. Get with the times  or get left behind. If you want courting don’t do online or tinder type dating.

        1. Morris

          I should be more clear. If you want courting from the get-go. You probably shouldn’t do online or tinder type dating. It’s more for casual dating THEN courting that special one. At least that way courting actually means something.


          Otherwise the girl is willingly being courted by multiple men. And men are courting multiple women at the same time. Doesn’t exactly seem all that special in that context.

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          And if you want to get a woman with standards, keep insisting to meet strangers for coffee and sex.

        3. Morris

          Who said coffee and sex? It’s casual dating. And it’s pretty much the new normal.


          Use online dating and/or tinter. Meet early without endless emails and see if the two of you click. Do this with multiple people. And the one that you feel the most connection to is the one you end up focusing your time and energy on.


          You make it seem like at no time in the dating process I’m willing to put in time and effort. This is incorrect. Only after meeting and making sure we are compatible will I dedicate my time and effort.

        4. Evan Marc Katz

          Just because something is the new normal doesn’t mean it’s GOOD. Did you watch my TED talk? That’s a response to people’s COMPLAINTS about dating.

          You act like your solution is effective just because everybody’s doing it. But then you listen to people: they’re sick of texting, they’re sick of dick pics, they’re sick of feeling disposable, they’re sick of being evaluated on looks alone, they’re sick of blind dates with total freak shows.

          Your solution? Keep doing it! Keep doing that thing that is so soul-sucking – that women, in particular, HATE. That should get me into a relationship with a quality woman!

          My solution? Slow down just a beat so that you go on fewer, but better dates. Not exactly radical. But pretty fucking smart.

          Finally: Only after meeting and making sure we are compatible will I dedicate my time and effort.

          I will remind you that you have it completely backwards. You decide if you’re compatible while you’re making an effort to call/plan/pay over the course of a month or so. You don’t text her, make no effort to pick up checks, expect to hook up and think you’re going to land a girlfriend that way.

          Or perhaps you do. And that would explain your frustration with dating.

        5. Evan Marc Katz

          By the way, dating casually – talking to a number of women at the same point in time – is absolutely fine. Focusing your energies on the one you feel something for is also fine. My point is that if you expect these women to call YOU, plan for YOU and pay for YOU, you’re doing it in a sub-optimal, ineffective way that will alienate most women who like to see their men make an effort. Why should she call and pay for you when she has another, more self-aware, self-confident, generous guy who is courting her properly? Which means – whether you like it or not – you’re going to lose to guys like me every time out. All because you’re standing on ceremony and trying to figure out how to make dating the fastest and cheapest it can be. Well, guess what? You get out what you put in. Put in a one-line text and a demand to meet right away, and most women will ignore you. This seems patently obvious to me, but somewhat elusive to the guys defending their “no effort” style of dating where women are expected to do the heavy lifting just because you’re tired of it.

        6. Morris

          I did not watch the video. I’m a reader. I don’t watch much of anything.


          Dating for me is fine. But that came after I became successful. Could be the money. Could be the confidence that comes with accomplishment. Could be that I also have a degree and take care of myself.


          To be clear. I pay for my dates. I also am the one who calls and plans a simple lunch or diner date. But that’s not courting to me. Maybe we just have different definitions of courting. To me courting is much more time consuming, formal and special. Something you simple can’t do with multiple people at the same time. Something reserved for special people that you actually want a relationship with. Not something you shower on every woman you are trying to date and get to know.


          I get that people are frustrated. But it makes me wonder why women use these mediums if they are actually looking for something else. It’s pretty clear that these forums are suited for casual dating. It’s a numbers game online. You shouldn’t be expecting something else.


          Finally. I only don’t understand the courting thing in this sense.(Online/Tinder) I actually prefer and have more success when I meet people in person. And for whatever reason. When you meet in person and have that spark and you ask them out. Well the more traditional courting process is natural in this environment.

        7. Evan Marc Katz

          I think we may agree. My point is that you don’t get a special woman without making more of an effort than random texting/free dates/sex. I’m not saying that you should talk to five women at once, take them all out for $200 dinner and treat them all like the love of your life. But when you find someone you like, the way to her heart is generosity, consistency, kindness and effort, not “she can call me” or “she can pay for me,” which seems to be the MGTOW/Beta Male party line.

          And, by the way, most people have more success meeting in person. Problem is: they don’t MEET anyone in person. Thus online dating/Tinder to supplement “real life”.

        8. popee

          I actually had a love-at-first sight situation through Tinder. It was the most incredible experience for both of us, especially since with Tinder there is no way of knowing until you meet.

          We are both going through a very difficult period now,   so the dating has been on pause but I often wondered, apropos of the comment on courtship, if I wasn’t so taken with him because unlike the 30+ men I met from Tinder, he asked me out in advance to meet for dinner which was a huge difference from the usual cheap coffee/drinks dates.This isn’t about money necessarily it’s about the casual attitude which can kill romance and eroticism in my opinion. A man who makes plans in advance and knows what he wants and makes an effort stands miles ahead.

          He is the type of person I would probably not have met otherwise. I’ll say thanks Tinder!

          PS: The worst about Tinder is men who expect casual sex. I think it’s quite common actually, and it’s a waste of time. I have met men who are very popular and can get laid easily but these are the top player types that can do that offline anyway. Having said that it’s a million miles better than   OkC because you are not getting creepy random messages from people you don’t like or are attracted to.

        9. Kyra

          “I get that people are frustrated. But it makes me wonder why women use these mediums if they are actually looking for something else. ”

          What other mediums are women supposed to use? I’m a 40 year old single woman. I have been single since I was 29 years old. That is not a typo.

          The only way I have been able to get a date is if I was signed up on OkCupid (not Match, as I’ve never had success there and certainly not Tinder.   I was on Tinder for two days before I was became frustrated by men pushing me for a meeting immeditaely  and insinuating there would be sex involved through lewd comments).
          Are we women supposed to be meeting men at a bar? I have a regularly frequent and nearly 80% of the men there are on their cell phones. One man I recently sat next to was swiping left and right on his phone all evening, ignoring   the several single, attractive women sitting right next to him open to and eager for a conversation.

          Are we women supposed to be meeting men at parties/functions, in networking groups or in social clubs? The vast amount of competition in some of these groups is astronomial and, like in most cases, unless you’re Angelina Jolie, it’s diffcult to catch and keep a man’s attention when he’s surrounded by a lot of single, availble women.

          I’m a woman of color (and quite usually the only woman of color in a group) so I’ve never had succcess meeting anyone interested in dating me at a party, function, or in a networking or social group. Meeting men out and about, to me, just doesn’t seem to be possible.

          Are we women supposed to be meeting men at the supermarket or on the train during out commute? I don’t feel we live in a society where this is *the way* anymore. Like the article Evan mentioned in his post states, people are seeking connection through the internet now. The ease of use gives us the feeling we’re connecting more, when we’re actually connecting less. Real time and suffered greatly because of online.

          I’ve seen men on the train platform during a morning commute focused intently on their phones while attractive women walk by them left and right. I once had a man sit next to me at a restaurant. One day later (by pure coincidence from a forum conversation I was reading that made mention of Craigslist Missed Connections) I saw an ad in CL Missed Connections for “The Attractive Black Woman Having Lunch and Sitting Next to Me at (restaurat name) Yesterday”. Sure enough, the ad was FOR ME from the man SITTING RIGHT NEXT TO ME just one day earlier. He didn’t take the opportunity to speak to me or say hello face-to-face, he went home, logged into the internet, created a post on a forum and hoped I’d see it.

          So, I’m confused why we women who are seeking more aren’t supposed to be using the very medium everyone else is (and that have been created to search for/find a connection and relationship) searching for the real thing.

          Online has only turned to a more casual stle in past few years thanks to things like the hookup culture or Tinder, but for as long as I’ve been single, online dating is what you do to… you know DATE — whether that be somethng serious or not. I don’t know about other people — perhaps my situation is unique — but I’ve never been set up by friends, I’ve never had a man approach me in a social group, I’ve never had a man I’ve met out and about ask me for a date.

          I use online to meet men and date and, if I’m not signed up on a site — like I am not currently — I do not meet men and I do not date. I mean that just seems the world we live in now due to the extent technology is in our lives, no?

        10. Morris

          @Kyra-I think you have it wrong.(Just my experience.) The competition ONLINE is huge. It’s easy and  convenient. Women think emails in an inbox means something. The truth is men are just mass emailing every girl they are slightly interested in. It leads to a lot of frustration on both parties.(Women getting many emails, men sending many emails and the endless possibilities.) It skews things.  


          I tell  my male and female things the same things. Go out to functions where you can be yourself and have fun. Use meetup to go on hikes. Or join a movie/food group. Game nights. You get the idea. I’m not saying stop online dating. But nothing replaces human interaction. Things come through that simply can’t be conveyed online.

      6. 3.1.6

        Thanks for the reply, Evan. Some food for thought, and your zingers  are well taken. You’re actually  probably right that  my success rate with first dates would be higher if  I used your filtering process. I suppose I am impatient when it comes to that, and I generally don’t want to talk on the phone or email before meeting, if I’m using OLD. However, I think you have a  few misconceptions about  my general approach, which I’d like to clear up.


        1). My position on courting isn’t coming from a place of failure or selfishness. I am absolutely not opposed to the man paying or courting in principle. I met my last girlfriend on match. On the first date we went for drinks at a lounge. At the end of the date she reached for her purse like any polite girl, and I   refused it and picked up the tab. I knew there was something there and was fairly confident I would see her again, so I had no problem doing that. What I was suggesting in my first post was that if you’re going on one or more dates  a week, and if you’re pretty sure on one occasion that there won’t be  a second date, then there’s no shame in insisting on going dutch. If I understand your position you think the guy should just eat the cost and accept that as a part of the reality of dating, and that such a mentality leads to success in the long term. I guess we disagree on that. As I said, you’re probably right that I’d have fewer first dates  which fail  if I filtered properly. That’s a very fair point, and to be honest I hadn’t really given it much thought. I’ll try tweaking with that.


        2). Didn’t mean to misquote you on the failure rate of first dates. I was exaggerating, and in doing so I actually made myself look bad. I haven’t done the calculations, but my failure rate isn’t 98 percent:) However, if you had to go on 300 first dates before meeting your wife then I don’t think what I said was that much of an exaggeration. I think a lot of first dates don’t materialize into much, and a lot of the time it’s neither party’s fault.


        3). I don’t at all subscribe to the MGOTW philosophy. They’re largely a group of delusional, bitter  people with a victim mentality, and as you said, their failures become self-fulfilling. I agree that men should be generous, respectful, kind, entertaining and empathetic on dates. However, I believe it’s possible to adhere to all those behaviors without necessarily adopting your form of courting. And I don’t think it has to do with quality women or non-quality women. I’ve met very few quality women who consider it an absolute deal breaker if I asks to go dutch on the first date, and I’ve never met a single one who would go on a second date with a man simply because he picked up the tab.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          Virtually all women I know are horrified when a guy offers to go dutch. We can certaonly debate the wisdom of this. I tell them to give dutch guys a chance. But if you want the best odds of another date, you pick up the check, no questions asked. Dating is not about right and wrong but effective and ineffective.

        2. Mrs Happy

          Hi Shaukat @ 3.1.6,

          just from my (female) perspective:

          If you don’t want a 2nd date, I can understand you wanting to go dutch. It would be unimpressive to me, but maybe if you don’t want a 2nd date with me, it does not matter to you, if I think you are cheap/anxious about money. So, understandable – your resources are finite and you don’t want to use them up on a no-go.

          If you want a 2nd date, bear in mind I don’t know this for sure when the time comes to pay for the 1st date.

          If either of the following happens:

          i) you are not comfortable paying for the 1st date (especially when that meal is an average cost, i.e. not an extremely expensive meal) and I pick up on that, or

          ii) you accepted my offer of going dutch, (which btw I made to be polite but didn’t want you to accept),

          I would not go on a 2nd date with you. You not paying would be enough to tip the scales over, to me not wanting to have a romantic relationship with you. And if I don’t want a relationship with you, there is absolutely no point me going on another date or seeing you romantically at all again.

          The man not paying for the 1st date has happened to me once (i.e. we went dutch after I offered), and the man being uncomfortable about paying for the 1st date has happened a different 2 times (i.e. 3 men in total, 3 1st dates where the money stuff was weird at the end of the night). This is out of many many 1st dates, too numerous to count/remember. In all 3, I never wanted to date them again. They immediately disqualified themselves in my mind. All of them subsequently asked for a 2nd date; I said no. I didn’t tell any of them why, but it was their inability to smoothly, comfortably pay. That was it. I’d have gone on a 2nd date with all of them otherwise.

          BTW, I am not a gold-digger. I just had no desire to be in a short- or long-term relationship with a man for whom paying for a pizza and drinks was a painful issue, because such angst over (what to me, because I earn a lot, were) very negligible amounts of money, weren’t what I wanted for the next 1-40 years of my life.

          The other consideration is, when 99% of men are smoothly paying for the 1st date, the ones that don’t, really stand out. In a competitive market a man who doesn’t pay severely handicaps himself.

          It may not be fair or ethical or logical or reasonable, but that’s how it was for me (and many of my female friends and colleagues). I could try to explain why, but I’d bore the audience. Him not paying just ….wasn’t sexy.

        3. Chaka

          I completely agree with Mrs. Happy.   Nearly word-for-word. Shaukat, I’m reading that, as the night goes on, if you think a woman is a good prospect — worthy of your time, attention and money, you will pay.   If she is not, for whatever reason — and that reason may simply be that she is not enough — attractive or fit or religious or extroverted or anything else you want — then you want to go dutch.   Not only would you not get a second date with me, but any shred of respect I may have had for you would fly out the window.   Even if I wasn’t your date.   If I just knew you (co-worker, relative, etc.) and heard that, your stock with me would   definitely fall.   That attitude really is just   kinda gross.

        4. Chance

          Never offer to go Dutch if you don’t mean it.   It’s dishonest.   Just thank him for paying and showing you a nice time, and let him know you really appreciate it.

        5. popee

          The bottom line is, if a man suggests splitting the bill on a first date it’s the end, the last time I will ever see him. That signifies friendship to me. When I was dating I only suggested cheap places for coffee or one drink anyway. One guy I dated one time asked if I wanted to contribute I said “no”.   He picked a place out of my range, he makes 8-10 times more money than I do. No. Sorry.

          I know right away if I want a second date with someone and   I rarely would go on second dates. I have suggested splitting the bill if I felt bad for someone, like the one time I met up with a clearly and outwardly depressed man. Splitting the check = I am not into you.


        6. Adrian

          Mrs Happy and Chaka, I have no problem paying for dates, but from the men who do, what I get from them is not the money being the issue, but the entitlement they sense, without caring for the guys situation (and Evan before you pounce, again this is not my view, I am just explaining what I have been told by many guys).

          But entitlement what I mean is, expecting the guy to pay even if you don’t plan on going out with him again. If a guy goes through this with say at least 2 dates a week from different women, he starts to feel used. It has nothing to do with him not being able to afford it. But this is something that you as women will never have to face… again it’s not about money.

        7. marisheba

          The assumption that men pay on the first date (often the first several) makes me uncomfortable, and I’m a woman. That said, it’s also a traditional marker of dating, one fairly steady norm in a confusing an awkward dating world, and that can be comforting–and a signal that indeed the guy likes you.

          I always offer to go dutch (and mean it), but I admit that if I like him I’m pleased if he insists on paying (but not disappointed if he doesn’t), and if I’m not into him I’m relieved if he agrees to go dutch. I think letting the guy pay actually makes me feel just a bit vulnerable, and with someone I like, having this small give-and-take feels like a nice teeny tiny first step to trust and intimacy.

      7. 3.1.7

        Chance – I don’t understand your question about “what gender roles do you believe women should adhere to that result in obligations?”. In my marriage my husband and I have the exact same roles.   We both make the same amount of money to support the household, have a joint account, make financial and all other decisions together, and back the other person up.   Neither of us does any housework or cooking – there are people we hire for that.   So really I don’t see a traditional woman specific or man specific role that I could  possibly adhere to even if I wanted to.   Regarding our dating relationship prior to marriage yes I did think the man should court me who wants to be with me because the reality is, I’m already an alpha enough woman that if I court the man we would never be able to figure out who the guy is in the relationship. That’s just the reality.   Furthermore I only bothered to date seriously with the intent to find a husband not for casual sex or casual romance.   So as my husband declared – he hadn’t courted anyone until me because courting implied a man doing something with the intention of making a woman his wife.   If you are having casual romantic relationships by all means don’t court the person.   It’s easier to extricate yourself later that way – easy in easy out.   I have no problems with that.   Frankly I find men who don’t court women or know how just plain Boring but that’s just me.

      8. 3.1.8

        Amen! This is the guy I would weed out after a couple of texts. I know my value-not settling anymore..:)

      9. 3.1.9
        Caroline R


        You are our Treasure.

        “A high quality woman will have no tolerance for it…” True.


  4. 4

    Well I’ve never actually been on Tinder, but have friends who have tried it.   I do know a friend of a friend who is now engaged to someone she met on Tinder.   However, those stories are very few and far in between.   More often than not, my friends got people looking for hookups.

    Even on match and other dating websites, it often felt like looking for a needle-in-a-haystack to find someone else looking for a relationship.   On match, I kept getting messages from younger men just looking for flings (I guess being in my mid-30s, they assumed I was a cougar looking for sex).   When I finally came across my boyfriend’s profile, it felt like a miracle!   But boy oh boy was it difficult to get to him.   In a strange way, though, it’s proven to be a silver lining–I don’t think we’ll ever take our relationship for granted, after we’ve seen how it’s so rare and difficult to come by.   If it’s that difficult to find a boyfriend on dating websites, I can only imagine what it’s like on Tinder.

    Oh and another thing, doesn’t Tinder now charge more for any user who is 30 and older?   That’s another reason I wouldn’t use it even if I were still single.   Age discrimination in online dating is nothing new, but theirs is even more blatant.

    1. 4.1

      I am over 30 and it is free for me.   I know there are upgraded ad-free versions but the ads play pretty infrequently.   I certainly would not pay for Tinder because I do not really  take it seriously.   After experimenting with it, I treat it more like a parlor game that my girl friends and I will play with if we are out having a drink or something, looking for a laugh at the ridiculous characters who pop up in the shiny shirts and spiked hair.

      That said, I have started to see a lot of cross-over guys, one guy I had met from Match and dated last year showed up and then a man I dated two weeks ago from Match also appeared on the app.

      1. 4.1.1

        Glad you’re having fun with it and it sounds like you have very reasonable expectations for what it is.   I think my friends’ problems came from them somehow expecting a relationship out of it!   I know what you mean about the cross-over, lots of the same people tend to be on different sites.   But you never know who will join next.   One day, my boyfriend suddenly was on match (after he’d broken up with his ex).   I hope one day the right guy joins your services too.

  5. 5

    The young guys at work that are all on there told me they “swipe right” on basically every woman just to see what will “stick” which is I guess the equivalent of winking at every women on a normal site just to see who will respond to them. So I’m not sure about the effectiveness of that.

    I’ve never been on Tinder as I’m sure most women I’m looking for in my 45-60 age range wouldn’t be there either. We’re all too intelligent and are far too experienced to be taken in by it. That being said there’s a reason IAC who owns Match and 75% of all the other dating sites including Plenty Of Fish, Ok Cupid, and ALL the “peoplemeet” sites bought it. It makes $$$. Millennials will grow out of it and eventually migrate to mature online dating sites like Match and others IAC will develop.

    1. 5.1
      Karl S

      As depressing as it is to admit, I’m one of those people who right swipe everyone. Some people have labelled our type as the Indiscriminate Narcissist, but really it’s a logical endpoint to the dating behavior of both genders. There’s an article on it here –

      As an average guy, my match rating is so low I may as well blitz through everyone to get to those matches. I figure the girls I’m not attracted to can take the minor sting of being quickly unmatched with someone they haven’t even had the chance to talk to. The dating game is all about minor stings from people who don’t work out, after all.

      The unexpected upside of right swiping everyone is that I might also think twice about a person I’d matched with who I might never have otherwise chosen if I’d be discriminating.

  6. 6

    “Is Tinder THAT Bad?”
    Good question. I’ve been thinking about joining Tinder for a long time now but haven’t had the guts to do it because I have an irrational phobia of putting my real identity anywhere on the internet (I always have this fear of seeing all my details splashed all over the front page of a tabloid newspaper for some reason). But I have several friends on it who are mainly looking for hook-ups — but would consider a relationship — and they’ve reported mixed results. They say that they do far better in person, so they still prefer to meet women the old-fashioned way and regularly suspend their account. I guess I should give it a try sometime for the hell of it anyway.

  7. 7

    I read the full vanity fair article. I think the women have unrealistic expectations about Tinder. It seems they’re using Tinder hoping they get a meaningful relationship when they all know it is just a hookup app. It’s like someone going to a fast food restaurant hoping they can get food that is healthy.

    Women always have a choice. If they want to meet a nice, relationship oriented guy then they shouldnt   use a hookup app.


    1. 7.1

      Sorry I DON’T feel as a 40 something woman that I have a choice.   It is very rare that I meet someone I fancy.   I often wish I liked anything with a penis!   But, I am the way I am.

      until someone makes an app or site where you both have to like to match but that is only for dates & relationships, Tinder it is for me.

  8. 8

    I have tried Tinder just as an experiment,   and so far about 50 -55 percent of the men have either been clearly trolling for easy sex.   The others have seemed like typical guys of online dating (many damaged or rebounding), and some guys caught up in wishful fantasyland to the point that they really did not bother reading my profile or asking me about my background.   The NSA-sex seekers can be weeded out pretty easily. I started chatting with a decent sounding guy who shared a lot of interests, then we had a pleasant text exchange about the weather and he went on to  insert a line about “you know what I like to do all day when it rains like this… stay under the covers “wink wink”….”   Not something that is likely to happen in the first few exchanges on Match!

    The  format of Tinder makes it more challenging and  less efficient to suss out the weird, socially inept or otherwise “off”  men.    It also creates a perception of quicker intimacy than you have with Match,   I think this is due to the “texting” communication that is easy and instant, and feels more personal than Match’s format.

    It is also very annoying how, due to the lack of information about people, you have to repeat your backstory (where you live, what you do, hobbies, education) ad nauseum with each new connection.   This gets tiresome fast.

    I’m back to winking and sending witty repartee on Match….


  9. 9

    I went on Tinder once for about 20 minutes on a Friday night   out if curiosity. Aside from the fact that my phone was initially malfunctioning resulting in me swiping the wrong way and having   22 “matches” in the space of minutes, I didn’t really get it. A photograph doesn’t tell mr anything about someone other than what they look like which is not my main criteria. Also the last man I dated who might have had potential had he not only recently divorced was a fairly traditional former army intelligence officer who advised me to warn my female friend why his single colleagues were using it. So Tinder isn’t for me. On a separate note I can understand Tom’s reticence. A number of men have emailed me online that I either already know or who have seen me around somewhere which I found uncomfortable and weird. Why not just talk to me in real life then? I don’t understand people who reach for technology first and hide behind computers in situations where there is an option for face to face communication.

    1. 9.1

      Because when someone rejects you online, they just don’t reply… The End.

      When someone rejects you in your face, it’s more personal, you feel like you aren’t attractive, or worth

    2. 9.2

      So what did his single army intelligence colleagues use it for?

      Trolling for sex?

      How is it worse that they use it to get sex, than men in other professions do the same, I might wonder. 😉



  10. 10


    Why is it gross exactly? Because even though there won’t be a second date, for whatever reason, you feel like you have the right to a free drink/meal? Even if, say, you’ve decided there won’t be a second date due to lack of chemistry, etc? Under those conditions, pay for your own share. You’re a big girl I take it. If you don’t want to, fine, but call that attitude what it is: Selfish Entitlement. It’s based on nothing but tradition, just like men feeling entitled to sex after paying for dinner, or women being expected to work in the home. If you support progress in those areas, you should support it in this area as well. The only reason you wouldn’t is because it’s inconvenient for you.

  11. 11

    This is why I suggest a first date to be super cheap (coffee?) or free. Then we won’t have these problems.

    Is Tinder THAT bad? Yes. It essentially is a hook up app. Of course you will find success stories but for the most part, it is an app that focuses only on the shallow – then of course, this is what you will get in essence. No way around it. At 37 years old, I will never venture on there.

  12. 12

    I have good news to share. I used Tinder for a few days and met an amazing man off of it. We are in a loving, committed relationship thanks to us both swiping right. To give you guys context, I’m 35 and he’s 37 and neither of us were looking for a hookup. Perhaps we are a rare success story, but I think since this app has become increasingly popular the user pool is, nowadays, more diverse. Tinder gets my vote. But hey, it’s all about how you present yourself on and offline. #SwipeRight #LoveAtFirstSwipe

  13. 13

    As a 38 year old woman, Tinder is the only dating app/site I use. I tried the traditional ones and found that I got inundated with completely unsuitable men… 70 year olds, based 100 km’s away would hound me. As a woman Tinder gives me so much control; I can set a narrow age bracket and distance to 10 km’s, and only men who I’ve also swiped right to can contact me. It’s also incredible how much you can tell from a couple of pictures of someone. I am pretty good at judging the good guys, and I avoid the shirtless muscle guys, or drunken selfies. My main profile pic is also pretty conservative (but sexy in it’s own way) based on some advice a male friend of mine gave me, and I ge a lot of comments on it from guys I match with. I think it stands out from other women’s sexy pouty selfies. Hence I very very rarely get the DTF guys contacting me. Like anything, Tinder is what you make of it. All 3 guys I have dated for any length of time over the last 2 years I met on Tinder. They didn’t work out for various reasons but it wasn’t because I met them on Tinder. Also, it seems that ALL single men are on Tinder because it’s free, quick and fun. I tried eHarmony for example, but it’s just a marketing strategy to make women think if they pay lots of money they will meet marriage minded men… funnily enough, in reality it’s like a ghost town, in the same way as men who paid for Ashley Madison were told they could find NSA sex, but in reality there were mostly men on there! I have been pleasantly surprised at Tinder, and I would urge anyone to give it a go. If you don’t like the messages from a guy, just unmatch from them, and they will never be able to find you again.

    1. 13.1

      Exactly.   I continue using Tinder (as a supplement to Match) because of the *few* positive stories and outcomes I have heard about.   Plus, it’s free, so what’s the harm as long as you are smart about it and not using it as your sole method?

      And I so agree about EHarmony being a scam.   Nearly 90 percent of the male profiles on there are inactive, non paid subscribers who cannot respond to messages.   They joined during Free Communication Weekend and then Eharmony acts like they are active and available matches.   Not to mention, the “matching formula” is entirely bunk.

      1. 13.1.1

        Josie said: “EHarmony being a scam.

        I signed up a couple of months ago…
        And waited…
        There were only like 3 matches near me.
        Then I kept getting matches that were across the country (I guess their match system doesn’t realize that 2000 km is too far away for a relationship).
        I emailed customer service, had to go through multiple contacts and finally getting angry with them before they finally refunded my money and closed my account.

        1. JB

          You gals are right! For the life of me I’ve been online dating for 18 yrs and NEVER heard one good story about eHarmony yet they get away with false advertising the “millions” of marriages they say they’re “responsible” for and no one calls them on it? I’ve never gone near the site. If you want my opinion it’s just as big of a scam as Ashley Madison if not bigger. Why do people keep signing up it? I’m sure more women than men do because men aren’t going to answer a million questions. Just like Ashley Madison had women “bots” pretending to be “interested” in men by fake emailing them I’m sure EH has to have some kind of shenanigans going on to keep getting people to pull out that credit card. The bottom line is it’s really hard to “bitch” about a site that’s free like Tinder, POF, or OK Cupid.

          Interesting article here:

        2. Karmic Equation

          A former colleague (in her 60’s no less) — found her 2nd husband on eHarmony.

          Another former colleague met her husband on Match.

          Both of them were 5s. Not sure what their husbands looked like.

          But they were both two of the nicest women I’ve ever worked with.

          They were catches in that respect: mature, well-spoken, kind, thoughtful. I can’t think of anything negative about either of them except their “number”.

        3. DeeGee

          JB said: “You gals are right!

          I’m a dude (double-checks crotch area) – yes, definitely a dude.   But it’s nice to know I’m still right for once.   🙂

          Karmic Equation said: “I can’t think of anything negative about either of them except their “number”.

          I thought they were 5’s…
          I don’t think I’ve ever seen a -5.   😉

    2. 13.2

      I am with you, I am 38 years old woman and regular dating sites are just too frustrating. The average age of men contacting me is around 50 and then I politely reply that I am not interested, they tell me that they are my last chance and I am too picky not wanting overweight bald dude who looks older than my dad.

      I met quite a handful of amazing guys on Tinder around my age or a younger and I date two of them right now (one is 31, another 41) and so far so good.

      1. 13.2.1


        On traditional dating sites I am NOT attracted to the guys who message me.

        and yes I’ve tried dating guys I’m not attracted to/not my type & I didn’t like it.

        3 pof guys & 1 OKC guy was it’s mutual attraction with on tinder TONS of matches yes a lot just wanted to hook up but I got about 10 dates in a few months


  14. 14

    Fascinating exchange as always.   The most striking comment for me was “It makes perfect sense that we should hold off on the ‘courting’ until after something substantial has been established.”   Maybe I don’t understand the word courting, but if it means spending time doing things together so you can get to know each other, I don’t understand how anything, substantial or otherwise, can be established without courting.   If it means going out for conspicuously expensive dinners, isn’t the only point of that trying to impress a date, which is no longer necessary once something substantial has been established?

    I agree that it’s archaic and unfair that men pay for the first date, but it’s so broadly accepted in 21st century America that it’s just a clear social signal to me.   The one time in my whole life that a guy accepted my offer to split the bill, it was a brush-off.   We’d met face-to-face, so he should have known, but he asked over dinner if I wanted children and when I responded that I was in my mid 40s and probably couldn’t still bear a healthy child, he just couldn’t wait to get out of there.   If a guy doesn’t pay for the first date, I just assume it means he doesn’t want to see me again.   If it’s a financial hardship to buy dinner, there are a million cheap or free things to do instead.   My first date with my current boyfriend was meeting at a music festival, where I think he bought me a beer at one point, but otherwise we listened to music, wandered the grounds, danced, and ended the night singing at the bonfire.   Didn’t feel like “I’m not risking more than 30 minutes and the cost of coffee,” ’cause I had his undivided attention for a full day.

    I am aware that it takes guts for a man to ask a woman out and I understand that he’s the one on the hook for the cost of the date in most cases, but I don’t get the claim that the man has the entertain the woman for the evening and even then she can decide after 2 or 3 dates that she’s not interested.   Don’t I also have to be entertaining enough that he wants to see me again?   Doesn’t he also have the option of losing interest after 2 or 3 dates?   I don’t think the burden of disappointment falls disproportionately to either gender.   And even if it is a risk, isn’t that necessary?   I am kind of amazed that my boyfriend trusts me so completely, given the painful betrayal that ended his last relationship, but the simple truth is if he acted jealously toward me, I might understand where it comes from but it would still be a deal-breaker.   You just can’t find a connection with another person without taking the risk of getting hurt – that’s life.

    I know I’m long-winded, but one more thing.   I love this juxtaposition – the poster saying how painful it is to get rejected despite having average “looks body income and height” and then Evan saying farther down that “the way to her heart is generosity, consistency, kindness and effort.”   I already find you physically attractive enough or there wouldn’t be a first date; the issues that determine the second date or long term relationship are entirely the personality features that Evan named.   I couldn’t care less about your bank account balance and body fat percentage, but I am paying attention to how you treat me, and if you’re broadcasting that you don’t want to waste too much of your time and resources, I won’t waste any more of mine.

  15. 15

    As a single Mom with very little extra money, I have been using Tinder for about 9 months now… I just recently took a step back from it (i.e. just deleted the damn thing). I’ve had mixed results with it. About the first 5 months of me using Tinder was pre-reading EMK. I got into a 4 month long relationship via Tinder that was a great learning experience for me… and fun. But it ended when I followed some of EMK advice after realizing mistakes I’d made with that boyfriend, i.e. putting up with sub-par communication, lack of definition of the relationship (if you don’t know if he’s your boyfriend, he’s NOT your boyfriend). Thankfully I had a relatively painless breakup initiated by me.

    The other guys I’ve met via Tinder have been more hit and miss… I’ve been trying to follow EMK advice about a week of emailing, couple phone calls before meeting in person which has helped some, but most of the guys don’t want to initiate a phone call, just text, even IF we already spoke once on the phone. Couple of first dates after a phone call that went pretty well, felt like we both had a great time, engaging, flirtatious conversation, a follow up the next day, then… nothing. No second date set, tapered off communication. The fade.

    No hard feelings, but slightly frustrated when I put myself out there, am relaxed, happy, engaging with a guy; look him in the eyes, listen well, laugh with him at his stories… then nothing. And only with Tinder dates has this happened.

    The other part of this story is, I’ve so far had better luck with the dates I happened to meet in REAL life (not judging online dating, just Tinder here)… and they had to work to get to know me, i.e. court me.  It’s been a great feeling getting to know this one guy who put himself forward, expressed interest in getting to know me, and took his time to do just that. Text me, call me, date me, initiate. I don’t play hard to get, and am (calmly but happily) receptive to a guy who initiates!

    Point of this convoluted story is, you give what you put into it. Tinder requires little to no time investment, and semi-fast results for most guys (and girls). People who try to use it as a more serious dating app. run up against the fact that these guys or gals are back to left/right swiping right after a date with each other. No pesky emails. No phone calls. Such an “in-the-moment” app. encourages in-the-moment dating with little to no investment. Sigh.

    1. 15.1

      Its the paradox of choice.   Men have just as many options as women, and the single women generally only want to date the best-looking men.   So the best-looking men have all the power and control on Tinder.   Its so easy and requires little effort to set up first dates.   I suppose in that aspect, women have less power if they are only trying to date the hottest guys with lots of other options.

    2. 15.2

      Sounds hard to get to me. Props to that gentleman for jumping over all those hurdles.

  16. 16

    I really appreciate the wisdom in this piece – particularly how technology can be a blessing or a curse when it comes to dating. I recently published an article about how technology degrades the relationship and makes them simply a result of whim and impulsivity.   When we can put the value back into the relationship, we can hopefully improve the quality and the experience, rather than impulsively pursuing whatever Tinder might offer at the moment.

    I think you might enjoy reading this as a great follow up. Thanks again for a wonderful post!


  17. 17

    There seem to be a few guys on Tinder who are relationship oriented.   Then there are others who are clearly just looking for whatever semi-attractive girl seems to be available and ready to “have fun” at the present moment.

    To respond to Anna, I think real life dates will lead to better “post-date” outcomes in nearly every instance, because when you meet in real life, you are meeting and dating a known quantity.   A guy that approaches you at a party appreciates your real life figure and is not fixated on your interests on your profile.   Real life chemistry is developed from the moment you meet, and bodes well for your results after a first date.

    A guy you meet on Match or Tinder has likely honed in on your good pictures and certain aspects of your profile, creating expectations that the real life person is unlikely to meet.   Your result with that last date isn’t Tinder-related.   I had a Match date a couple weeks ago that concluded the same way.   Good first date that I expected would yield a second… then crickets.   🙁   It happens.

    1. 17.1

      I agree, Josie. It’s a balancing act. I won’t write off online dating completely… but I’m not going to just focus on online dating because I “know” those guys are at least “interested” in me. Good, potential dates can be anywhere — it’s how you handle yourself and your receptivity towards it. I know that online dating is a bit of an easy out for ME  if I’m at a party and don’t want to make myself receptive and approachable! Not good.

      One of the biggest lessons I’ve learned from Evan’s materials, too, is for *myself* to not get too hung up on good looks. And, as we all know, that’s exactly what Tinder encourages us all to do. That hot guy may be dull as a rock on the first date, and you spent all your emotional energy and time pursuing him when the shorter, slightly balding guy is actually the one with the wit, kindness, consistency, and prowess in bed. Vice versa, too, for guys looking for quality girls. 😉 Good luck judging that very easily using Tinder and a lack of a decent profile.

  18. 18

    I wish Tinder was the hookup app! I have gone out on about 20 dates from the app and EVERY SINGLE WOMAN I’ve dated wants to make me her boyfriend and won’t give me sex until i commit to her! Tinder has been anything but a hookup app for me! so frustrating. Hookup app my ass!

    1. 18.1
      Karl S

      So move to New York and become an investment banker, like the guys in that Vanity Fair article.

    2. 18.2

      I have been there before. They are “probably” banging other dudes, just not you. Sorry. Just weed them out, or court them 😆

    3. 18.3
      Caroline R

      Hi Charlie,

      Thanks for letting me know that there are at least 20 other women in the world who have standards like mine, and value themselves as Evan encourages us to. That is good news. Not so much for you, however, except that you must have some attractive qualities to be alluring to so many high value women.

  19. 19
    Karmic Equation

    I would never have heard of Tinder had it not been for Evan’s first blog about it a few months ago.

    So, of course, I had to download it and try it out.

    I think I had two dates from Tinder. One was with a comedian who’s had moderate success and had opened for Gallagher, Dennis O’Leary, etc. He seemed relationship-oriented, but too heavy a drinker on our first (and only) date. He did call me again a few days later and I let it go to VM without answering and he never called after that.

    Then I met one of those socially awkward, science, nerdy guys. Owned his own company. Seemed like a good guy. I did have an ok time at dinner but could not see myself being his gf. I think I agreed to a second date with him  after telling him point blank (but nicely) that I only wanted to be friends. He willingly agreed. He was going to drive down my way to go have dinner somewhere but we decided that was too long a drive on a weekday. Then he immediately offered to take me to lunch on the weekend. I felt a little pressured and thought to myself, I really don’t know this guy and this feels a lot like he’s trying to back door his way into dating me or something. Because, frankly, I don’t do lunch dates (or anything that resembles dating) with my guy friends. No one-on-one lunches or dinners or walks. So I suggested that we just be FB friends instead. Which we are. But I never comment on his page nor he mine.

    Anyway this second guy probably would have been a fine guy for  someone with a less amazonian personality than mine (and more modest! hahaha).

    Then there were three  guys who were clearly after sex. One, a cute Brazilian, kept texting me after 1030pm. Another was a guy who wanted to meet for drinks. Another guy whom I actually made a lunch date with, but who finally came clean and said he was married (like a 1/2 hour before our date) — I just said to this guy, “I’m sorry, that’s not what I’m looking for. Best of luck.”

    One guy I was casually dating went on Tinder and has had much more success on that than on OKC (which is how I met him), because he’s shorter than average (5’7″) but very very handsome. So Tinder is perfect for him. I believe he’s met at least 3 women from that and had pseudo relationships with them until they pressed for exclusivity.

    Anyway, Tinder is like any other OLD site. The good looking ones are going to get most of the attention and dates.

    What I did like was that no one could talk with me unless I also swiped right. And if you decide you don’t like them after that, you can unmatch.

    If OKC or POF could be like that, I think those services would have more success and be less frustrating for women. It would probably be MORE frustrating for the average guy though.

    1. 19.1

      I always feel terrible asking men on Tinder about their height so I try to estimate it from their photos.   I’m a taller than average gal.   I had drinks with a guy from Tinder a couple days ago, who turned out to be shorter than me.   We had a very nice time ,    while we are probably not compatible for non-physical reasons.    This is one of the positives about Tinder – I am honing in less on height and income, and more on the personality and interests expressed in photos and the bio.

      I too use the strategy of swiping left on men who have no written bio- they tend to be looking for hookups or are looky-lous.

      I still prefer Match but have decided that tinder is not terrible, if you use it judiciously.

      1. 19.1.1

        I am updating my “review” to state that I have now deleted Tinder after toying with it for two months.   It was just way too time consuming and aggravating to dig out information from men, constantly having to re-tell my back story, constantly having to play Nancy Drew to search the public records and find out if he is married.

        I was pretty good at weeding out the men who were clearly hookup oriented.   I ran across three married cheaters, went out with a man who was misleading about his career and was also extremely effeminate and likely gay or bi, went out once with another guy who continued to contact me on Tinder only despite my having provided my phone number (which seemed shady to me, possible married and has a decoy app to cover up the Tinder app, and did not want to use phone/text due to risk).

        One man   (who I determined was married via public records) drunkenly called me late at night, bitched about his “ex” and even insulted my dogs – he ranted about women who have smelly dogs before I could end the call. WTF

        One guy showed up stoned to a meetup and had a seemingly paranoid reaction when I told him my career (he had apparently focused on my pics and neglected to read my profile bio).

        The few normal seeming guys disappeared rather quickly , probably enticed by another woman from the seemingly endless supply that Tinder offers.

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