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I’m 23 years old and I fear that I may be the product of my overly exploited-social media obsessed-generation. I’ve been following your blog for quite a while now and even share some of your tips on my radio show (I always credit and cite you). Yet, I still find myself confused sometimes.
I’m currently dating a bartender. Most people would view this as a faux pas and even cringe a little at this statement. I know I did when I first said it aloud. We’ve been dating for about a month and shortly after we first had sex I found him creating distance between us. This is not really what concerned me — in fact I expected that. What bothers me is that when I casually bring up the fact that it takes him 5 hours to text or call me back, he tells me I’m flipping out. I find that inaccurate since I don’t feel that I get overly upset or loud with him. Since the birth of social media sites and, in particular, Instagram, I know when and how long ago he was active and on his phone. I don’t mention this to him because I know this is somewhat insane behavior.
This really upset me, so I tried not to care or bring up it up. However, since we’ve been dating and I continue to frequent the bar, there have been some red flags. Given his current profession, there are always going to be women, flirting and all of the stuff that would drive a woman insane. On three separate occasions I felt disrespected. The one that sticks out and still bothers me is when one night I went to visit him and after a couple of drinks I decided to leave. Usually when I leave we kiss or do something sweet. This time when I went to kiss him goodbye, he pulled away from me like the plague and told me in this sort of coy and charming way to wait until I see him tomorrow. IMMEDIATELY, bells went off in my head. I felt like I was being tricked. I asked him what the problem was and finally he admitted that at the other end of the bar a woman he had hooked up with in the past was sitting amongst mutual friends and he didn’t want her to say anything.
I left the bar without saying a word to him. I felt humiliated and frankly pissed off.
Is it me or did I choose a loser? Am I being the stereotypical insecure woman or are my reasons for feeling uncomfortable just? Whether it’s him or anyone else, I tend to have this problem. – Kristina
His girlfriend is going to be the cool girl who makes him want to be a better man — not the one who spies on his Instagram account.
Yes and yes.
Yes, he’s a loser. Yes, you’re being the stereotypical insecure woman.
Wait, you want me to say more? Okay, twist my arm.
You were aware enough to realize that you’re dating a bartender. Bartenders are often cute guys who work late hours and pick up women at last call. They are around drunk women all the time and can often get together with whomever they want, at will. If that bartender is in his 20’s like you, it’s a really safe bet that he’s in no rush to get married, and so he will continue to keep a roster of women at his access. He can text any of them when he gets bored/horny/lonely and whoever responds, responds. That’s his desire.
This doesn’t mean that he is a jerk. This doesn’t mean that he can’t be nice to you. This doesn’t mean that he will not eventually end up with a girlfriend. It does mean however, that his girlfriend is going to be the cool girl who makes him want to be a better man — not the one who spies on his Instagram account.
And that’s where your tendencies — the ones you admitted in your last line — are going to trip you up. Doesn’t matter if you’re dating a bartender or a saint. You are acting from a place of fear and insecurity and you’re paying the price for it.
Therefore, you have two choices:
If you’re with a guy who does NOT really like you, does NOT want to be a boyfriend, and does NOT see himself as a husband one day, it doesn’t matter how cool you are or how jealous you are; you’re just wasting your time.
1. Find a guy who doesn’t have a profession which requires him to flirt and be surrounded by other women. An accountant. A contractor. A programmer. He may be less charismatic than your bartender, but he’ll be earnest, relationship-oriented, and single-minded in his attraction to you. This is the man you should probably date and marry based on your natural insecurities.
2. If you insist that you want to be with a confident, flirtatious, charismatic guy, you had better put all your fears aside and start trusting.
No getting on his case for flirting. That’s what he does.
No lectures for not replying to texts when you want him to. You’re not his boss.
No freaking out that he’s got a past with other women. Of course he does.
Now this does NOT mean that you should turn a blind eye to a man who is a player, a cheater, and a narcissistic jerk. Your bartender could very well be that man.
But I’m not.
And that’s the source of my advice — what kind of woman would I want to be with?
So, Kristina, if you are with a guy who really likes you, who wants to be a boyfriend, and who sees himself as a husband one day — the ONLY way to deal with him is to trust him and not micromanage him.
If you’re with a guy who does NOT really like you, does NOT want to be a boyfriend, and does NOT see himself as a husband one day, it doesn’t matter how cool you are or how jealous you are; you’re just wasting your time.
This is almost the identical situation to this post from a few weeks back (What Is the Definition of Monogamy?)
In short, you’re wrong to spy on your bartender and get jealous that he has other women in his rotation. You’re not his girlfriend. You have no rights to his time.
But your bigger problem is that you’re dating a young bartender who doesn’t see you as anything serious and you’re expecting him to hop to attention when you call.
Don’t waste your time.
John says
Wow. A guy is considered a loser because he doesn’t commit to one girl? If he acted like this and he was married then sure I would agree. I would agree he is not boyfriend material if he acts that way. But a loser? Tough crowd.
Al says
I hate to see young women fawning after dudes that simply are not interested. If a guy pulls away after sex. Move on. Next. Don’t waste your most eligible years on someone who isn’t excited to be with you. I did, and I sorely regret it.
This guy will most likely only gain respect for you when you calmly tell him you’re looking for something real, and this isn’t it. goodbye. end of all contact. In this age of internet dating there is ALWAYS another guy around the corner- especially for a young, attractive female. You’ll be over it in 2 weeks, tops.
Good Luck!!
richard hod says
Brilliant advice EMK! Best article I’ve seen i a while on such things. I don’t post often, as people will see… keep at it old pal 🙂
LS says
Evan, I totally agree with your advice about not wasting time on a guy who is not putting forth the effort to be serious with you. However, as another 20-something who experiences the same types of scenarios as Kristina, I do agree that women of our generation fall into the “crazy and insecure” category easier than generations before.
It didn’t sound like Kristina was being “that girl” and acting nosy. I think she probably saw a few notifications pop up on her newsfeed that gave her the answers she was looking for (that he clearly didn’t want to text/call her back). And in this case, she should move on.
I wonder: were previous generations of daters just blissfully unaware of why someone wasn’t returning their calls? That mystery information is so accessible now, even if we don’t always want it to be …
Food for thought.
Angie says
“Yes, he’s a loser. Yes, you’re being the stereotypical insecure woman.”
Haha, I agree with Evan although I hate that this behavior is seen as “stereotypical” of women. Men do this, too.
OP, I don’t think your problem is the fact that this guy is a bartender. You are 23, and that’s a typical job at 23. There definitely is a greater access to drunk, single women but do you remember Miranda and Steve from “Sex & The City”? Steve was ALWAYS devoted to Miranda (up until the sequel). So if your bartender likes having access to numerous women as a part of his job, then yes, that’s a problem.
Also, I agree with John #1. You’ve been dating for a month. You shouldn’t even be out of the honeymoon period, but you are internet-stalking him and felt disrespected three times. ONE MONTH??? That’s not a relationship. That guy doesn’t owe you anything. I don’t think his behavior shows he is boyfriend material, but these are way too much negativity for the first month of dating.
Joe says
If it was clear from the letter I missed it, but was he behind the bar when she met him? If so, she’s the type of girl she’s afraid he keeps at his fingertips.
Maria says
So many times we turn a blind eye to situations like this. It is more than obvious that he is not boyfriend material for her. He is not interested in a relationship with her. I wa sher once and promise after that I wont be after a guy like this. There are really nice men out there who do want to pursue us and have a relationship. We have to be more open minded and realize when he is into us or not.
Morris says
Don’t know why the guy is getting heat on this. I’d like to hear his side of the story. The way I see it she was coming on way too strong. Internet stalking him. Going to his place of work. Wanting PDA from him at his place of work. And “We’ve been dating for about a month and shortly after we first had sex I found him creating distance between us. This is not really what concerned me — in fact I expected that.” Makes it clear that her actions drive men away. Give the guy some space.
Katarina Phang says
“This doesn’t mean that he is a jerk. This doesn’t mean that he can’t be nice to you. This doesn’t mean that he will not eventually end up with a girlfriend. It does mean however, that his girlfriend is going to be the cool girl who makes him want to be a better man — not the one who spies on his Instagram account.”
I love that, Evan!
If only women knew the secret of attraction. It’s none of what she showed above. Acting needy after sex, glued to the cell 24/7, overthinking and overanalyzing, stalking the social media, expecting a guy to be a certain way (after sex) and get all pissy when it’s not met and in general chasing…chasing…chasing….those are number one attraction killers.
Those are signs of a low-value woman that guys run away from. And I have had so much fun writing about those in my blog.
Be a classy woman who is absorbed in her own fabulous life, your air of self-confidence and mystery will mesmerize any man.
Barbara says
I realize the guy works in a bar and she said she still frequents that bar, but seems like after only a month of dating, showing up frequently at his work place is chasing. And it would have to be frequent if she’s felt disrespected three times by him and the “relationship” has only been for about a month.
I’ve been dating a guy for four months and I know the town he works in, but not the actual address of his work place. It’s irrelevent because I’m not just going to stop by his work……ever. And I do not expect him to stop by mine either.
A lot of information has been left out of the equation too. Has there been a talk about dating exclusively before or even after sex? Are they actually going on dates, or is she just showing up at his work and occassionally going home with him.
Seems to me that she might think they are dating, when in actuality he might see it as hooking up, just like he does with the other women at the bar that he finallly admitted he had hooked up with.
Don’t necessarily agree that the guy is a loser, Evan…..it depends on what he told her about their relationship. If he said they were exclusive, he’s a loser. If he never said that and she’s created an instant relationship, he’s just a guy that is not in an exclusive or committed relationship doing what normal single guys do.
My advice….find a new bar, find a new guy, and let him lead next time……and for Pete’s sake don’t check up on him. Not every man is out to screw you over and if you go into something thinking they are, you’re gonna look for signs that they are and create you’re own self fulfilling prophecy.
Amelia2.0 says
I echo the advice to accept or even reinforce the distance this guy is creating. Obviously “dating” to Kristina is not the same as “dating” to him, and it makes me wonder if she made the mistake of assuming they were on the same page just because they went home together one night. Yeah, I’ve been there, sister. Best to just cut bait and try to do better next time. Might make things a little awkward at the watering hole for a while, but I recommend chatting up other men there in order to take your mind off of the disappointment and rebuild some self-esteem.
Michelle says
Most of Evans advice was appropriately stern and on the mark, she has to learn her lesson at some point about picking better men, but I deeply resent this BS stereotyping of normal human behavior as a typical “woman” thing. This is part of what harms women emotionally, being made to think that normal human feelings and behaviors are “crazy”. Insecurity in general is not just a girl thing, and while chronic, deep insecurity can be a real flaw, what this girl exhibits is perfectly within the normal bounds of what anyone would feel or be compelled to do with a love interest who isn’t handling them well, especially if a particular scenario – dating a bartender- is new to them and they don’t know any better. Lay off of her a little. Checking someones public Instagram account isn’t spying for christs sake. It doesn’t matter that her intent was to find out what’s going on with him, she was curious about why he wasn’t engaging her and getting info where it’s openly and freely displayed. That’s OK. it’s fine. She’s not a psycho. People, please stop pretending that we don’t all go to these lengths sometimes when we’re hopeful about someone we like.
Sally says
At 53, I may be far removed from my 20’s, but I do have 2 handsome sons in their 20’s and they tell me everything. (I’m the cool mom.)
There ARE 20 something guys who want to just have a special commitment, no games, no players. My sons are, and so are most of their friends. My older son has been like that since age 20! And you have no idea how hard it was for him to find a girl who was not just into partying. He felt pressured to have sex in a relationship before he was ready to, and was even accused of being gay! Without fail, the girls that they choose to date (and my older son to marry) are laid back, relaxed, ready to just let things unfold, and here is the clincher, don’t jump into sex right away. So the take away lesson for women, whether you are 23 or 53: Don’t treat the guy like he is your boyfriend until he is. That includes sex. (I also learned this the hard way.)
Michelle says
@Katarina 9. You’re not wrong, but you’re also not right. It’s true that chasing and neediness is a turn off, but so much advice like that seems to endorse an inauthenticity and fakeness in women where they have to pretend like they’re not looking for love, so they don’t risk not seeming like that “cool girl” who doesn’t want or need love. Y’know what, even if I’m not physically checking my phone every five minutes, if I have my hopes up about someone, and I want to hear from them, I’m going to have them on my mind every 5 minutes, I’m going to be really bummed out when I don’t hear from them, I’m going to feel hurt, invalidated, and eventually pissy if they ghost on me after sex. Because IT HURTS. I really wish people who stop telling women that they’re WRONG for being HUMAN. It’s possible to act out of your feelings in a wrong way of course if it comes as some sort of attack or demand on another person, but it doesn’t make a woman low value to want something more from a partner and feel unhappy when she doesn’t get it.
Ruby says
Kristin wrote: “Whether it’s him or anyone else, I tend to have this problem.”
If you can’t handle the consequences of casual sex, then wait longer before having sex, or wait until you’re actually in a relationship. Longer than a week or two. That way, you won’t be freaking out when you discover he’s not your boyfriend after one month of dating.
“I’m currently dating a bartender. Most people would view this as a faux pas and even cringe a little at this statement. I know I did when I first said it aloud.”
If you don’t respect what a man does for a living, that’s another reason not to date him. Ditto if you don’t trust him.
Katarina Phang says
Michelle, it’s not about right or wrong/fake or authentic. It’s about what works and what doesn’t. Acting needy, insecure and controlling has been proven time and again to work against women. You can call it being authentic or whatever, fact is it is a turn off for most men (and vice versa of course).
There are better ways of approaching these things, you don’t have to be victim of a mindset that doesn’t work and blame other people for the situation that you are in (he’s a jerk/loser, etc). You have complete control over your own feelings and emotions, you can grow out of that immaturity and insecurities.
I teach that every day to hundreds of women who follow my writing religiously. It’s about undoing your destructive habits and conditioning. It’s about consciously choosing a new paradigm that transforms you. I used to be that needy, insecure, pushy, impatient, controlling, man-chasing girl so I know how blind these women are as how they come across as I once was.
There is a place for vulnerability, but being ruled by your vulnerability and nerves 24/7 is a losing strategy. It doesn’t have to be black and white that if you are secure and not needy, thus you are pretending that you are “cool” or don’t want/need love.
If a woman wants to be successful in love and in relationship with men, it’s about time they change the ways that have been proven time and again as never working.
Lure with honey, not vinegar. What she is doing is luring with vinegar.
Rachael Dez says
loser alert! Run from him as fast as you can !!
starthrower68 says
As someone who was married at 23, I would not recommended being so caught up in one guy anyway.
marymary says
I’m quite a “cool” person myself. I don’t do drama. I don’t snoop and I’m missing the jealousy gene (though I don’t see anything wrong with jealousy when it’s founded). The explayer said I was the “perfect girlfriend”. But that still didn’t make him any readier to settle down (he was a bartender too, but before I met him). If he’s not ready or just doesn’t have it in him, move along. The best you can do is extend the relationship beyond it’s natural sellby date and I don’ think it’s worth it.
I don’t think he’a a loser but I think you may also be insecure in holding onto something that isn’t that valuable. (I’m not questioning his value as a human being, but the relationship).
Diane says
Kristina,
I think you are aware of the bad choices you make and your own insecurities. You just needed them your validating by writing on Evan’s blog.
You can make your dating and relationship experiences better by self analyzing your faults as well as good points.
One thing is for sure, you do need to make radical changes even if it’s just for your self esteem.
Clare says
I couldn’t help noticing this line from the OP’s letter:
“What bothers me is that when I casually bring up the fact that it takes him 5 hours to text or call me back, he tells me I’m flipping out.”
Casually? People know that this is a loaded statement and that they are being moaned at, there is nothing casual about it. Either decide that 5 hours to reply to a message is fine with you (5 hours really isn’t that long in boy time) or better yet, stop sending him messages unless he sends you one.
If I were the OP, I would assume I was just casually dating this guy, because that seems to be how he is treating her. I would start filling up my time with other things, maybe even accepting dates with other guys, but definitely not give my heart to this guy. She is so young anyway!
Joe says
@ Michelle #14:
Katarina isn’t admonishing the LW for being human. She’s admonishing her for weakness. People who are in love with someone think about them often. Weak people who are in love with someone think negative thoughts often.
Tom10 says
Michelle #14
“So much advice…seems to endorse an inauthenticity and fakeness in women where they have to pretend like they’re not looking for love, so they don’t risk not seeming like that “cool girl” who doesn’t want or need love…it doesn’t make a woman low value to want something more from a partner and feel unhappy when she doesn’t get it.”
Let’s do Evan’s trick of flipping things around and see it from the other perspective. We accept that women look for love and guys look for sex. But men have to behave as if we’re not looking for sex. Are we fake and inauthentic for doing this? No, because we know that if we acted like that we wouldn’t get anywhere. To get sex we just have to accept how women work and then act accordingly.
The same goes for women, they need to accept how men work and then act accordingly to get what they want (find love). There’s no use complaining about it. As Katarina Phang #9 said it’s all about mindset. Women have to see themselves as the prize that the guy should be pursuing. That means no snooping, no constantly checking your phone, no checking social media sites, no chasing etc. Women have to think: “I know I’m so good that of course he likes me.” And if he doesn’t? No problem, there are thousands of guys out there who do.
I think that’s what Katarina meant by low value/high value women — it’s a function of mindset rather than a character judgement.
Sally #13
“I do have 2 handsome sons in their 20’s and they tell me everything. (I’m the cool mom.)…you’ve no idea how hard it was for him to find a girl who was not just into partying.
Ha, I’d take everything they say to you with a pinch of salt. No matter how cool you are you’re still their mom — some things just aren’t appropriate for mom to know about 🙂
LC says
The problem is that sex to this girl isn’t casual. I don’t know how a guy putting his penis inside of a girl is considered casual in any context, but I guess that’s what dates me in this discussion. Stop sleeping with these guys until you’re sure they have good intentions towards you. It’s so sad that we women give men our bodies and hearts, and they don’t seem to want them at all. Keep your heart and body to yourself. Find someone worthy of you. She’s not a crazy woman. She’s being treated in a way that makes women crazy. Whenever I start feeling insecure because of the way a man is treating me, I know it’s time to get away from him. A good man would never want his girl to feel bad and insecure.
Rose says
Katarina low value woman remark has nothing to do with being pretending to be ‘cool’ and having casual sex pretending then not to care if a man boy or woman is treating us how we want to be treated. A woman is not of high value in my eyes and most high value women I know because she is ‘cool’ about having casual sex.
The low valueless and low class to me is each of them not valuing their own bodies or their own hearts.
It’s a lesson for the op to learn to take care of her heart and body and treat them with more value in the future and not make the same mistake again. Everyone makes mistakes.
If a monogamous loving relationship is what you want, build the love and relationship first before sharing your body.
The key word here that the op used was ‘disrespect’. This was her key to take responsibility for her own feelings and take care of that feeling by walking away and getting some self respect back.
It isn’t the op’s fault this happened it is the fault of how society has become not educating girls at a younger age to take care and treat themselves with the respect they want and desire.
It is however now her responsibility to take care of herself and treat herself with more love respect and value in the future. And that is what I hope she now learns to do.
Rose says
Also re how attraction works. katarina I believe
If want is to be treated with love, value. kindness, compassion and respect when we start treating ourselves this way the then are are attracted to and attract the same back,
Nicole says
The two things that jump out at me with this post are the age of the letter writer and the duration of the supposed relationship.
While it is great that she is seeking advice on dating, and she sounds like she wants a real relationship (even if she’s years away from marriage), it doesn’t sound like she has a boyfriend AND she is coming across as kind of paranoid and insecure to boot.
There are a LOT of posts here that talk about not getting made at people for continuing to be the people that you were attracted to. You can’t be made at the charismatic flirt for continuing to be a charismatic flirt, esp. if that personality helps line his pockets (as it does with a bartender). And you can’t get mad if the lady you picked in the tight clothes continues to wear them.
I think the letter writer is asking the write questions, but she skipped over a lot of other advice that would have helped her understand that she’s likely not a girlfriend yet, and in these stages of her dating experience, she’ll need to let him be who he is and whether or not he wants to be her boyfriend.
Social media and technology has changed people’s expectations regarding communication, and it’s also made people kind of crazy with the social media stalking (so getting mad at someone for being online but not answering your FB/Twitter/text/email). Once upon a time, we had no expectation that all correspondence would be answered immediately but you know what, people are busy, people are working, people are eating lunch and I personally dislike socializing with the people who are pulling their phones out ever minute to check FB or their texts or their email.
My personal rule is to put my phone away if I’m out with friends. I might glance when you go to the bathroom or if I step away but in the presence of other people, I make them my priority, so my main point is that if I’m having a busy or active day, no, you won’t get an email or text response from me in 5 hours either, and it has nothing to do with how I feel about you.
People need to chill out in general with the expectation that technology means all messages should be answered instantly. And don’t expect a non-BF to drop everything for you on a moment’s notice.
Of course, this is just re-hashing the advice given, which is that this guy isn’t being a boyfriend and that she’s being paraonid and insecure, which is not how you make someone want to be your boyfriend. Snooping on phones or tracking on FB should not be considered normal or good behavior.
Katarina Phang says
Rose, in my opinion sex has nothing to do with it. How you act after sex is. And in his eyes he’s just doing his normal stuff but he’s feeling that she’s on his back 24/7 now. It’s not good. Nobody likes to feel being monitored by a parole officer (that’s how she acts).
Back off. Lean way back. That’s how she’s going to make him want to come closer, not by hounding him with texts and pouty attitude.
It’s only one month, like someone said he doesn’t owe her anything. She’s drowned by her expectations. Many women do that and they come to me for help. Once I told them to remove expectations, it’s like removing the roots of cancer. Guys don’t respond to expectations and punishment. They respond to rewards and compliments and feminine joyfulness.
When I first met my boyfriend, the first thing he told me was “I don’t want a relationship.” I wasn’t fazed by it. In a way, I kinda expected it (hey, I wrote a book on dating an EUM after all and I wrote it for a reason). Instead of getting all huffed out I calmly told him, “Don’t worry, I don’t want a relationship with you either.”
And I leaned back, didn’t text/call left and right. So now it was him who was wondering why I was so cool. I intrigued him so much cause he had to initiate most of the time. It ignited his romantic feeling.
The next thing I knew he was courting me. Pretty paradoxical, isn’t it?
And I was telling him the truth. I didn’t think he was boyfriend material at first. And even if he had been, I would have always stuck to this principle: I don’t want a relationship with a guy who doesn’t want a relationship with me. That’s how I protect myself, not by holding out on sex.
Barbara says
Sex is not a weapon, nor is it a negotiating or bargaining tool to secure a relationship.
If a woman wants to have sex with a man, it’s her choice. However, she needs to be honest with herself as to what she is expecting from that encounter. The writer of this letter said she expected this man to withdraw after she gave herself to him, so it stands to reason she has had this happen in the past. If that’s not what she wants to happen, then she needs to approach dating differently. And set some boundaries for herself and be clear and concise about them with her potential suitors.
This is more about what she is looking for than the guy she is experiencing the problem with currently.
While I see no issues if someone wants to have casual sex with another person, the mindset has to be that it is “casual” and not the start of a great committed relationship. Can a great relationship be formed after just going into something casually? Sure it can. But you can’t “expect” it and forcing it with any guy is going to make the opposite happen 99% of the time.
I also believe this “checking up” on someone you are dating through social media is not only a product of our technological times, but also our own insecurities from our past. I never check up on anything that my current boyfriend is doing or has done. If I can’t trust him without checking up on him, I don’t need to be with him. And I was with a chronic cheater for four years, so it’s not like I’ve never been lied to or deceived.
A friend recently presented me with the ridiculous complaint about a guy that she’s been dating for a couple weeks which she became intimate with immediately. She’s done with him because she saw him online on Match last night after telling him that she’s only seeing him and expects the same. How would she know that he’s online if she’s not online? Now granted, she was online checking up on him, and she felt he was online looking still. But still, they were both online, as they both have the right to be until a dialog regarding committment is initiated. And you can’t just blame this mentality on youth (the writer being 23), as this is a woman who is approaching 50 that I’m talking about.
In dating whether online or in person, you have to have the proper mindset. Evan’s material Finding the One Online goes into this indepth and it’s very valuable information.
I’m wondering if the writer has invested in any of Evan’s programs? I’d say that would be a great starting point for her.
Fusee says
To my opinion, he is not a loser, and she is not a crazy insecure woman.
A loser is someone who fails, blame others for their failures while doing nothing to improve. The bartender seems pretty successful at his trade, and seems to enjoy the great opportunities to flirt and hook up.
Similarly the Letter Writer does not seem insecure to me. Maybe a bit inexperienced, but not insecure. You’re insecure when you let other people’s words and behaviors make you feel “less than” and define you in negative ways. I don’t think she is letting this situation define her negatively, although like many inexperienced women, she is trying to fold reality into a pretzel to make it look like her dream scenario.
I agree with Michelle @12: it’s getting annoying than any negative feeling triggered by someone’s disappointing behavior results in the person being labeled “insecure”. Feelings are spontaneous, natural, and human. But yes, emotions (the way we express our feelings) and behaviors can be controlled, and this is what life experience and education can do: teach us how to be authentic in our feelings while also being effective in our social intereactions.
In this situation, there simply is a clash of goals and intentions. The Letter Writer is assuming that she got something more serious than what is being offered. She is seeing him as a boyfriend while he is treating her as a casual hook-up. If she can take a step back and look at the reality of her situation instead of inventing a reality that does not exist, she will realize that they’re not on the same page, give herself the respect that she needs, and move on to a more suitable prospect.
Now, I obviously agree with the concept that “being the cool woman”, “making feel good”, and “accepting him” is the way to go to inspire a man to step up, commit, and be the best partner he can be. She (or another woman) could be all these things to the bartender, and as a result *might* get him to commit to her. But given this bartender’s current priorities, it does not look like he is really ready to give up playing the field any time soon, and to my opinion the most she would get with such guy is some sort of short-term exclusivity where he would just take a break from playing around. After all, what player would not enjoy a nice break once in a while with an easy-going woman who provide good sex and fun company while not complaining about his flirty ways with other women. It does not mean the guy CAN commit and be a QUALITY long-term partner. He would soon end up tired of monogamy and his instincts would bring him back to the playing field. For such men to move on to the next stage of their lives, and choose a woman to marry, I think it takes much more than a cool woman that accepts him: he must be determined to build a family and be completely done with p*ssy-chasing.
Therefore, I’m all for being accepting and making feel good, but I’d suggest the Latter Writer to invest her energy with someone more likely to be able to go the distance. Going for flirty bartenders is fighting a losing battle when you want a serious relationship.
Evan says “1. Find a guy who doesn’t have a profession which requires him to flirt and be surrounded by other women. An accountant. A contractor. A programmer. He may be less charismatic than your bartender, but he’ll be earnest, relationship-oriented, and single-minded in his attraction to you.”
Amen! I’m just that lucky woman who is naturally attracted by those types, and I just snatched a good one for myself : ) When I happen to admire the nice *ss of a good-looking woman passing by, guess what? He drools at her… dog! Now that’s the kind of guy that is easy to accept, to make feel good, and to forgive when he does something less than ideal. Less headache! More fun!
Katarina Phang says
I want to address two things here:
1. How we feel is the result of how we perceive the external world. If we use broken colored glasses (expectations), yeah sure we will feel lousy more often than not because more often than not our expectations aren’t going to be met. So to be at peace with oneself, replace those broken glasses with a new pair that works better.
2. There is no guarantee either way in dating: sex, or no sex, pre-sex agreement or not. The need for guarantee and security is why you are insecure in the first place. And this is why you’re not going to get the result you want as you plan it. The only way of being secure is by embracing insecurity….and the impermanence that life is. And love can’t be planned, targeted, hurried….it happens when you least expect it when the connection you cement in every moment you’re together naturally evolves to something deeper.
Karl T says
LC#24,
You sound extremely narrow-minded. You say “I don’t know how a guy putting his penis inside of a girl is considered casual in any context”
Really? Your mind can not fathom that?
Then you say “It’s so sad that we women give men our bodies and hearts, and they don’t seem to want them at all.”
You speak like women are this precious jewel and men are privileged to have sex with them. Wake up!! Are you living in a cave? I’ve met women before who have sex with you and then dump you in a heartbeat without half a care in the world. Neither gender is some precious gift to the other one. Get a clue.
Rose says
Fusse
“Evan says “1. Find a guy who doesn’t have a profession which requires him to flirt and be surrounded by other women. An accountant. A contractor. A programmer. He may be less charismatic than your bartender, but he’ll be earnest, relationship-oriented, and single-minded in his attraction to you.”
Amen! I’m just that lucky woman who is naturally attracted by those types, and I just snatched a good one for myself : ) When I happen to admire the nice *ss of a good-looking woman passing by, guess what? He drools at her… dog! Now that’s the kind of guy that is easy to accept, to make feel good, and to forgive when he does something less than ideal. Less headache! More fun!”
Exactly, negative feelings are a gift so if you are feeling insecure it is a gift saying hey listen you are doing something that isn’t good for you. Which in this case is getting involved with the wrong kind of man for you.
Date the right kind of man for you as Evan says. One who will treat you how you want to be treated, take it slower to observe if you are both on the same page and to see if caring mutual feelings develop first before investing your heart and time and then you won’t feel insecure you will be with a better match for you.
Lisa says
Maybe. But a guy that’s a flirt is a flirt and will do so no matter the profession.
Rose says
One other things that springs to mind is trust.
Trust comes from a deep place in you, it’s about trusting your gut trusting yourself to know what is right you you not him. Which it appears in this case you had but chose to ignore
Michelle says
Thank you Fusee30 for understanding. I’m on board with all great advice for women about the right way to think about and approach dating and relationships, but I just can’t stand the naive and myopic judgements about how women naturally feel sometimes in response to disappointment, rejection, confusion…you’re needy, you’re insecure, you’re bitter..YES we’re all those things because we’re HUMAN.
Shelagh says
Sounds like the OP is an admirer of Evan, and seems as though she knows what she’s doing is wrong. Sometimes you need to hear it from someone else. I think it’s safe to say that we’ve all taken part in childish behavior when it comes to dating. We are reading a blog for dating advice. Evans blog, btw. I feel like I’m reading a bunch of comments that are people pretending they’re experts in dating. Can we leave that to Evan? Simple request. Some of these remarks make my eyes hurt, and some of us also want advice from ONE person.(Evan) K thx.
Joe says
Shelagh: then don’t read the fkin comments!
Scaramouche says
@Shelagh
*chuckle*
@Karl T 32
———————————————————————————-
LC#24,You sound extremely narrow-minded. You say “I don’t know how a guy putting his penis inside of a girl is considered casual in any context”Really? Your mind can not fathom that?
———————————————————————————-
No, Karl T, mine can’t either. That’s a difference of opinion, not narrow-mindedness. I’m not asking you to change your opinion, only stating that in my world that makes no sense. That is why LC followed her comment with “but I guess that’s what dates me in this discussion.” This is an indirect acknowledgement of the fact that others may believe something different. You, on the other hand, seem to think that casual sex should be “fathomable” to everybody. Sorry, dude.
Karl T says
Scaramouche #38,
Wrong! I didn’t ask if she agreed with it (casual sex) or shared the same point-of-view about it. I asked how her mind couldn’t possibly fathom how 2 people might want to have causal sex. That IS narrow-mindedness. Expand your mind just slightly and maybe you will comprehend how two people might get horny and want to bring pleasure to each other. Gee, that is tough to imagine, isn’t it?? I’m not gay, but I can fathom that gay people get the same feeling of arousal that I get when I look at the opposite sex and I can understand that even though I don’t get the same arousal from looking at the same sex. Narrow minded people can’t think outside their own train of thought.
Apparently, you are narrow minded as well. Sorry dudette.
Rose says
Karl T. She didn’t say how she couldn’t fathom how two people might want to have casual sex.
She said “I don’t know how a guy putting his penis inside of a girl is considered casual in any context.”
I interpret this as her meaning that she doesn’t understand how another person can consider such an intimate act as casual
.
subtle miscommunication and understanding. Although my interpenetration may be wrong.
Happens a lot between people I believe.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Rose, @KarlT, @Scaramouche, @LC, @Shelagh – to clarify on behalf of men:
To the question of “I don’t know how a guy putting his penis inside of a girl is consider casual in any context”. This is a failure of imagination on your part. Just because YOU can’t fathom that such an act is casual, BILLIONS of men (and women!) have had a different sentiment. We are all well-served to understand how other people think. I very much understand and respect how you think. You would be wise to appreciate that for many people, sex does not have to do with love or emotion, just lust.
Katarina Phang says
What many women don’t understand is your focus on commitment takes away the lure of committing to you more often than not. If he sees you more than just a “sex object” which I’m sure you are he will want to get to know other aspects of you.
There is really no strategy other than being grounded and self-confident. If you are a woman with self-esteem, he will admire and respect you for that. That’s the beginning of love for a man. But if you disrupt the chase with “the talk” and demands of “clarity of where the relationship is going” or chasing behaviors or the constant need for reassurance more often than not he’ll be turned off and feel pressured into committing into something he’s not ready for.
At the end of the day, you can’t control other people, especially not a man you’re trying to hook romantically. It never works that way. You can forever blame the men as the problem of your insecurities because they don’t do things the way you think they should (expectations), or you can change yourself and your approach to dating/relationship (which is what I did and I’m so glad that I did).
Skaramouche says
@EMK
>> I very much understand and respect how you think.
Thank you. That is all anyone can ask for in a respectful debate. I respect your beliefs as well. I’m truly not lacking in imagination…I have an overabundance of it. I can very well imagine how casual sex is a fantastic, pleasurable, fun release as a stand alone. However, right after that I think of related points that I cannot refute. If people are so easily able to separate lust and love/emotion, that means they are two separate things and one should have no impact on the other, i.e. love is not needed for sex and sex is not needed for love. Further extending this then, monogamy holds little value (beyond sexual safety) because who you sleep with has nothing to do with who you love. You can love one person, have children with him/her and/or spend the rest of your life with him/her but still have emotionless sex with other people at the same time. This is where it breaks down for me because I don’t believe people work this way. I’ll stop here because this isn’t really a discourse on my thoughts and feelings about casual sex. My only point is that I HAVE thought about this a lot and have made a personal decision based on the things I can and cannot accept. Speaking only in that realm, I cannot fathom how the casual sex system works. I understand and accept that it happens and it works for many people. I am passing no judgement of any sort because it’s not my place to. However, that is not the same thing as understanding how people make it work in their heads. I am genuinely curious about that.
@Karl T: are you capable of writing a comment that makes a reasoned point without the attacking the person you are responding to?
Michelle says
Katarina 16. You have complete control over your actions, you do NOT have complete control over your feelings. That is the kind of statement I’m talking about that makes women feel defective for feeling PAIN, anger, and anxiety when things aren’t going well with a love interest. Not everyone can magic themselves into a FABULOUS life where they’re so awesomely busy and having fun all the time they don’t notice when a guy they like has dropped the ball. No one can will themselves to not WANT to do the things the op has done, they can only will themselves to not go through with it. I’d like more of that distinction made in the advice that gets given to women about how to navigate this stuff.
Tom10 says
Fusee # 30
“Amen! I’m just that lucky woman who is naturally attracted to those types [An accountant. A contractor. A programmer]”
I’d be wary of judging a guy on his job – that’s what catches a lot of women out. I’ve got several (male) friends who are accountants and they are terrible sluts!
I know you meant the “less charismatic than your bartender” bit, rather than his job per se.
“I just snatched a good one for myself : ) ”
Are congrats in order?
Joe #38
“Shelagh: Then don’t read the fkin comments!”
Ha, I liked that – I thought the same thing.
Rose #40
“subtle miscommunication and understanding. Although my interpenetration may be wrong. Happens a lot between people I believe.”
Was that an intentional pun? Lol. I think there was some irony in there too 🙂
Skaramouche #43
“if people are so easily able to separate lust and love emotion”
I think you touch on the paradox that most men — and many women — eventually have to deal with: how to resolve our inner conflicting desires of having sex with many people, yet love emotion with just one person. Each of us approaches this in different ways. I’ve decided to have lots of sex first and then think about love. Tiger Woods decided to have love and lots of sex at the same time (I’m not sure if that was a good idea). Ultimately it’s up to each individual to resolve this conflict for themselves.
I think Karl T made a fair point to LC. Reading her comments — “It’s so sad that we women give men our bodies and hearts, and they don’t seem to want them at all” she seems to fall into the trap of thinking that all women are like her and have had the same experiences as her. She doesn’t seem to realize that women dump men after sex too, say they’ll call and then don’t etc. It’s happened to me several times and looks like it’s happened to Karl T as well. The point he made is that these are universal painful experiences, not specific to women.
Our bodies and hearts are just as precious.
Rose says
I understand where you are coming from Scaramouch.People who can compartmentalize and or dissociate are able to do this. They are able to treat sex as a sport and it can in some cases becomes an addiction to try and fill a void trying to escape their problems or past traumas, Not sure if that helps you fathom it or not. Fear of intimacy is also another reason for some.
Karl T says
Scaramouche#43,
I think I explained myself quite well. I called it narrow-minded. Evan called it lack of imagination. Enough said.
Tom10 #45,
Thank you for further explaining my post. And absolutely it has happened to me too.
Scaramouche says
@Tom10 #45
As always, your well thought out and humourous comments are appreciated and enjoyable to read and reply to. I missed Rose’s (unintentional) pun and well, heehee.
>> I think you touch on the paradox that most men — and many women — eventually have to deal with:
But that’s exactly my point. Is it truly a paradox? Either sex involves emotions or it does not. If not then monogamy seems counterproductive and one should be able to love a single person and commit to him or her as a life partner while having lots of sex outside the relationship to slake the many headed beast of lust 😀 You don’t have to choose and you shouldn’t have a paradox on your hands. If there are those who are in happy, open marriages I would say that they have truly embraced casual sex without emotion. The rest of us who see value in monogamy are just faking. Just my humble opinion.
>> I’ve decided to have lots of sex first and then think about love.
Nice plan! You seem like a good dude Tom10 and if you ever end up with a girl long term I have a feeling she will be a lucky one. Based on your comments so far though (not just on this thread), I think you have sex in spite of emotion, not in absence of it. That’s an entirely different thing from sex being only about lust as so many claim. You’ve learned to adapt and the value of varied sex outweighs the pain that it may cause. Much luck to you, my friend.
>> I think Karl T made a fair point to LC.
Yes, for the bit that you quoted, he did. It’s just a tad hard to see with the insults flying around. For the other part of the comment – the part that has resulted in the rampant use of the word “fathom” (!) – not really. LC is speaking with much bitterness and does seem to be a bit one-sided but I don’t know that she deserved the insults. My comment to him wasn’t nice…I was a bit ticked off and it showed but I’d like to think it wasn’t rude. The response er….wowed me 😛 Anger is really easy. Staying calm, not so much.
@Rose #46
Hmmm…I think you’re overcomplicating it. Some may be in the situations you describe but most are not, I think. I could be wrong.
Scaramouche says
@KarlT #47
This is the first time in this thread that you have managed to put a comment together without needing rude remarks to go along with it. Yes, Evan and Tom made the same point and yet they managed to do it in a much more respectful and sensible way. I re-read your comment at #39:
>> I asked how her mind couldn’t possibly fathom how 2 people might want to have causal sex.
Yes, I understand. I was talking about the same thing so I’m not sure why you repeated yourself. We are not discussing opinions on casual sex or how we feel about it, we’re talking about the concept itself. I find it to be a bit of an oxymoron. @Tom10 – hmm….causal sex…another pun?!!
>> Expand your mind just slightly and maybe you will comprehend how two people might get horny and want to bring pleasure to each other.
Yes, I understand this concept very, very well. No mind expansion needed 😀 However, I disagree that the people in question can go on with their merry lives without the experience having had some sort of emotional impact, however fleeting. *That* is where we disagree. Make sense?
Rose says
Scaramouche
“Yes, I understand this concept very, very well. No mind expansion needed However, I disagree that the people in question can go on with their merry lives without the experience having had some sort of emotional impact, however fleeting. *That* is where we disagree. Make sense??
Yes. It makes sense to me. The emotion that they take away afterwards when having sex just to get sexual physical needs met is of something being missing.
Karmic Equation says
To women who think casual sex = sex without emotions,
As a woman who has casual sex, which a poster in a separate thread defined very accurately (imo) as “sex without commitment and expectations”, does NOT mean sex without “emotions”. I like the guys I have casual sex with. Heck, I even LOVE my reformed-player FWB, but I don’t EXPECT commitment FROM HIM. Because *I* don’t want to commit MYSELF to him. I know he’s not Mr. Right. But he’s a darn good Mr. Right-Now 😉 — I have fun when we’re together. Sex is fabulous. My clock isn’t ticking. I don’t need him to make ends meet. I don’t want to marry him.
I believe, however, men can and do have sex with women they don’t even like and don’t find attractive (“beer goggle-effect”), just to get laid. Not sure about other women, but I never need sex so badly that I’d have sex with a guy I don’t like or found unattractive.
That’s why women need to be careful and understand that just because a man will have sex with you, doesn’t necessarily mean (a) he likes you (b) finds you attractive (c) wants a relationship with you.
So if you’re a woman looking for a relationship, you really need to NOT have sex until you determine the guy is not only relationship-worthy by YOUR standards, but also that you are considered relationship-worth by HIS standards.
————
Back to the OP,
Kristina, in addition to Evan’s blog, you might also want to follow this blog: A New Mode — which is geared towards a younger demographic than Evan’s.
You might find this post interesting: 5 Things Every Girl Needs to Know About Men — particularly point #1 🙂
Another blog that you might find interesting is http://www.therulesrevisited.com — Particularly this post: Female Game for Girls in their 20s. I think you should read ALL the articles in this blog.
Your bartender isn’t a loser, but he isn’t ready for a committed relationship. And your behavior instead of making you stand out from your competition. You need to be different from other women he’s met to make him wonder about you. By behaving like the typical woman he meets, you become unmemorable. Cut your losses and find a relationship-oriented man, if you’re looking for a bf, and not just for fun.
Tom10 says
Thanks Scaramouche — perhaps a tad generous in your kind words but I appreciate them nonetheless! Much luck to you too 🙂
“Either sex involves emotions or it does not.”
Well I don’t see why it has to be a mutually exclusive condition — sometimes sex involves emotion and sometimes it doesn’t, and everything in between.
“If not then monogamy seems counterproductive and one should be able to love a single person and commit to him or her as a life partner while having lots of sex outside the relationship to slake the many headed beast of lust”
But the problem is that once an emotional connection has been established with someone then sex between them will involve emotion, and one can’t have random emotionless sex again without breaking that connection.
That doesn’t mean that the individual will stop yearning for emotionless sex. They want the monogamous emotional connection and the random emotionless sex simultaneously; even though they realize that they can only have one or the other. If not a paradox, it’s a case of wanting their cake and eating it too.
“I think you have sex in spite of emotion, not in absence of it.”
There might be an element of truth here, but as Karmic explained casual sex isn’t necessarily devoid of emotion although sometimes it is.
Generally to get casual sex a guy has to establish at least some rapport with the woman, however flippant. I am genuinely fond of most of the people I’ve hooked up with, however casual the experience. In saying that I’ve hooked up when neither of us spoke or knew each other names and it still felt good.
“You’ve learned to adapt and the value of varied sex outweighs the pain that it may cause”
Yes this is a delicate balancing act which I’ve decided is worth it. I don’t really mind the pain it causes me because I’ve learnt how to deal with it – and it’s an inevitable consequence of such behavior — I just don’t like inadvertently hurting others who haven’t learnt how to cope with it.
Rose #50
“The emotion that they take away afterwards when having sex just to get physical needs met is of something being missing.”
Or of something being gained: a great experience and a fond memory.
Karl T says
Scaramouche #49,
It’s NOT an oxymoron at all!! LC originally stated that she could not understand the concept of any sex being casual. That is what she said. I argued how anyone could be so narrowminded and rightly so. Understanding and personal preferences are two wholly different things- not an oxymoron at all. Go back and re-read as you didn’t comprehend my original comments correctly. I am not a swinger and never would be, but I can understand and ‘fathom’ how certain people might be into that. LC was basically closeminded and couldn’t even comprehend how any sex could be considered casual. That is a pretty narrow vision. If you find that comment insulting then maybe you need things sugar coated for you. Sorry, I tell it like it is. If LC is not into casual sex that is totally fine. But she simply should have said something like “It’s not my cup of tea, but if you’re into that then…bla bla bla…”.
Kurt says
The OP is very foolish. Bartenders – men and women – have a reputation for being promiscuous and are generally not good relationship partners. If blows my mind when I see attractive and educated women waste some of their most attractive years dating bartender-types.
Lisa says
She’s very young though.
Sparkling Emerald says
Karl T & Tom10 (and EMK)
Karl T you said
———————-
“You speak like women are this precious jewel and men are privileged to have sex with them. Wake up!! Are you living in a cave? I’ve met women before who have sex with you and then dump you in a heartbeat without half a care in the world. Neither gender is some precious gift to the other one. Get a clue.”
———————-
and Tom you agreed with him. Tom, you said it has happened to you and you believe it has happened to Karl.
I am just curious, how did you feel about being on the other end of a “hump and dump”? If I recall correctly (and correct me if I’m wrong) didn’t you (Tom)say in another thread that you didn’t realize how much women were hurt by being humped and dumped and you would try to keep that in mind ? So if that was you, I’m guessing that although it has happened to you, it really didn’t bother you, since you didn’t realize it bothered women. Whoever said that (and I’m remembering it as being you, but I could be wrong, I am over 50 so my memory isn’t tack sharp) I commented back and said thanks for understanding, and then another poster (male) got on my case and said I was being niave for commenting back a “thanks for understanding” comment.
Anyway, in the blog o sphere, many men comment that they size a girl up immediately and put her in the hump & dump category or the relationship category. So basically, many men freely admit that they participate in pre-meditated humps and dumps. I’m guessing that most women who “hump & dump” (and notice I said guessing) didn’t initially plan that, but perhaps didn’t call after sex because they feel that the guy should call them. You (Tom) even stated
———
“She doesn’t seem to realize that women dump men after sex too, say they’ll call and then don’t etc. It’s happened to me several times and looks like it’s happened to Karl T as well.”
———-
OK, I am having trouble imagining a woman having sex and then saying “I’ll call you” but with women doing a lot of the chasing these days, and if you say so, I’ll believe this has happened to you. But if the girl didn’t call you, why didn’t you call her ? Did she initiate everything ? If you didn’t call her, maybe she feels YOU were the dumper. Maybe after saying “I’ll call you” her feminine pride kicked in, or she read a dating coach website and decided not to. And why didn’t you call her ? (regardless of what she said) Were you relieved that she didn’t call ?
I don’t know, I just think in many cases of women playing “hump and dump” it was a matter of changing her mind, not that being her plan all along. And the changing of her mind could be that she sensed the guy just wasn’t into her, and felt any future sexual encounters would just lead to heartbreak so she moved on. If a girl didn’t say “I’ll call you” and she didn’t call you, then she didn’t dump you. She probably waited for a phone call that never came and wrote to EMK, or some other dating coach, or cried to her girlfriends about how SHE was humped and dumped.(or she maybe she didn’t care one way or the other, what the hell do I know ? ) It’s not that I think women NEVER play hump and dump, but I think it happens far less often, and probably in those few cases they mutually dumped each other. Why do I think this ? Oxytocin for one thing. Also (unscientific I know) I hear more men bragging about humping and dumping then women. There is more advice to men about how to hump and dump, get into a FWB situation, and build a harem of girls to rotate into his booty calls. And more advice to women on how to avoid being a guys once a week booty call. Very few men write and ask “How do I get a woman to commit to me and love me for life” Very few women set up websites & hold boot camps teaching women how to find boy toys for no strings attached sex.
EMK – BILLIONS. of people are into casual sex ????????? Really BILLIONS ????? Last time I checked, the world population was between 7 & 8 billion. Of that 7 and a half billion, a high percentage are people who don’t have sex, either being too young or are unable to for some reason. And when you factor in countries where sexual offenses could lead to the death penalty, the pool of people eligible for casual sex shrinks even further. Of the remaining people left who are physically able to have consentual sex, you really think BILLIONS are into casual sex ? Why is there a visual in my mind right now of Carl Sagan saying “Billions and Billions” . . . ? 🙂
Karl T says
Sparkling Emerald #55,
I observe that many women posting on here are in their 50’s, not all, but many. Perhaps you don’t have a good grasp of what the dating world has been like currently and over the past 5 years or so. I am in my mid-30’s. I will just say that women do all of the things that they complained about of the worst of men. They don’t call, they lie, they cheat, they have sex with another person in a heartbeat if they feel like it. I have literally had a one woman tell me I was the greatest guy in the world and a week later she went out with her girlfriends (we were supposed to meet again, but it got botched because of a miscommunication that centered around her dad being sick with cancer and that I didn’t want to impede on a day she was planning to spend with him), met a guy and slept with him and was all through with me. Where are all the emotions she was supposed to have as a woman? Bahahahaa…that is why I don’t buy all the women are emotional BS!! I have had girls who seemed to like me a lot more than I liked them actually blow me off for a date that we setup only a few dayss prior. No call, no text, no e-mail. Nothing. Not a care in the world. I would be ok if this happened only a few times, but it was actually happening so often that I started to expect these things. I had one girl keep callking me up and talking to me and telling me how terrible the men are on dating sites and how she couldn’t wait to meet me in a few days. A few days later she just blows me off cold turkey after we had been chatting for 3 weeks straight and finally set a date due to both out busy schedules. Last time I quit plenty of fish I had 4 dates in a row blow me off and I called it quits. One of the 4 actually messaged me to apologize for it. The others acted like they did nothing wrong when I sent a harsh e-mail the next day. One actually tried to blame it on food poisoning, but yet after she blew me off I went online and saw her online for over an hour. She could go online, but not send me a quick e-mail? Liar.
I know that there are a lot of men out there who are scum, but please realize there are just as many women who are and don’t think of women today as these innocent precious jewels. Many are as scummy as the worst men. I judge people by who they are individually- men and women. And just for the record most of these women Iappeared as sweet, cute, family type girls with decent jobs- so their poor behavior was even more unexpected. They were not trashy or psychos.
And for the record I am not big into casual sex. I would take it if it came along, but I don’t go out looking for it and I have never has a ONS.
Tom10 says
Sparkling Emerald #55
“I am just curious, how did you feel about being on the other end of a “hump and dump?”
To be honest it primarily felt great: I got sex! I was maybe 5% miffed that she thought the sex was so bad that she didn’t want to go again, and maybe 5% miffed that she didn’t like me enough to see me again. But the 90% positive feeling from sex far outweighs the 10% blow to my ego. Plus for a guy to be “used for his body” is interesting, even flattering.
“If I recall correctly didn’t you say in another thread that you didn’t realize how much women were hurt by being humped and dumped and you would try keep that in mind…I’m guessing that although it has happened to you, it really didn’t bother you, since you didn’t realize it bothered women.”
Well it bothered me the first time it happened, but I quickly learnt my lesson and learned how to rationalize my emotions so that it wouldn’t bother me again. I.e. as she never promised me anything I took responsibility for allowing myself to get into that situation.
I assumed that practically every woman had learnt her lesson (got burnt) by say age 21 and certainly by age 25, and knew how the game worked. That’s why I was shocked when reading women of all ages on this blog who kept getting hurt and making the same mistakes. I couldn’t understand how did they not learn their lesson the first time? And despite attempts at rationalizing with these women they still failed to “get it”.
I’ve concluded that some people will probably never ‘get’ how the real dating world works and these people need to be treated carefully.
“Many men freely admit that they participate in pre-mediated humps and dumps”
Yes this is true — sometimes a guy will have established within minutes that he won’t see her again, but might still continue his efforts in the hope of getting sex.
“I’m guessing that most women who ‘hump and dump’ didn’t initially plan that”
This might be true – I think women do the ‘hump and dump’ (it sounds like a dance move ha) for different reasons: out of loneliness, or just spur of the moment fun, or just simple lust and then realize afterwards that it was just a one off. Guys do it for the same reasons but also for the conquest, the achievement, the story etc.
I believe that the women who did it to me genuinely liked me, but not enough to see me again. Some women were in town for just the night, just wanted company and didn’t want the hassle of a long-distance contact. I suspect others had boyfriends although I’m not sure. These women figured that as I’m a guy I’ll get over it — and they were right.
“I am having trouble imagining a woman having sex and then saying “I’ll call you”.
Well I flipped that for the sake of equivalence. The conversations normally went like this:
Me: “so that was nice, wanna meet up again?”
Her: “sure, that’d be great, call me, here’s my number”
Then when I contact her she fades me out / ignores me etc. In my mind that’s equivalent to a guy saying he’ll call when he knows he won’t.
“It’s not that I think women NEVER play hump and dump, but I think it happens far less often”
Ok I admit that although it has happened to me several times I’ve done it way, way more times the other way around: a statistical inevitability of choosing a promiscuous lifestyle perhaps.
—————-
I suppose the general point is that women — particularly sensitive women – have a tendency to think that all women are like them and relate to sex in the same way. Karl T’s point is valid: to some women sex isn’t a big deal at all and they think nothing of having sex with a guy and then bidding him adieu. When guys meet women we have no way of knowing where she lies on that spectrum. Likewise, some men are probably more sensitive about sex than women realize.
Sparkling Emerald says
Karl T – Thanks for your response. It sounds more like your experiences are about relationships that don’t get off the ground, and I have come to expect that in online dating. I was really curious about the whole “women don’t call after sex” thing. Almost every relationship/dating coach tell us NOT to call a man, to let him lead, I had no idea that a man would feel “dumped” if the woman didn’t call him after sex, and I am wondering why a man wouldn’t call a woman after sex instead of waiting for her phone call and acting all lovelorn if she didn’t call. Almost makes me think I’ll just be celibate the rest of my life :). Now I have the added question in my mind, “Should I call him first after we have sex. If I do, I’ll come off as desperate and unfeminine, if I don’t he’ll claim I dumped him”. 🙂 Anyway, thanks again for your response Karl, but since you never had a ONS, that really wasn’t the kind of hump and dump I was referring curious about.
I am sorry about your negative experiences with online dating. I have experienced the dates that never happened myself. I made a special trip in the rain to pick up a dress from the dry cleaners, and re-arranged some stuff for a first time meet . Got a last miniute cancellation e-mail with a bullshit excuse. But it didn’t bother because it was a man I never met IRL. (But I realize that others feel differently) Once I meet a man, and we start getting physical (not necessarily sex, but kissing, cuddling, holding hands, etc) if he blows me off I do feel disappointed, but this time around, I don’t feel DEVASTATED like i used to. Maybe because women over 50 don’t have Oxytocin any more, or maybe it ‘s because being dumped after 23 years of marriage is the BIGGEST heart break I have ever had, and will ever have, so everything else seems like kid stuff in comparison.
Sorry you’ve had some bad experience online, but can you honestly say that you’ve NEVER blown off anyone yourself ? I hope you meet someone nice and that it all works out. As burned as I have been, I still think that love is grand, and think it is something that we all desire. And seeing or hearing of someone for whom it has happened makes me smile.
Tom10 says
PS. Sparkling Emerald.
When I say I’ve done the “hump and dump” I mean I’ve had a one-night-stand and left it at that rather than dated someone for a while and then dumped them after sex.
Karl T says
Hi Sparkling #58,
It’s ok, you don’t owe me any sympathies. Like I said I judge people individually. I just wanted to point out how women can act just like all of the worst of men I hear complaints about- especially with LC’s comment earlier citing poor women giving men sex and their hearts and guys being jerks. That really made me laugh.
I didn’t know you were talking about ONS’s only. I have had casual sex before, it just wasn’t after one meeting and it was casual sex just once or twice with that person- not some longstanding FWB.
Here is another true story for your reference that further emphasizes Tom’s last comment: I have a friend who used to be a big player and a bragger (which I can’t really stand, LOL). One night we all went out- big group of friends and he ended up with this girl back at his house (she went to his house prior and he drove her to the bar there so she could drink without driving). This girl is very attractive and is a friend of another girl we all know who is dating one of the friends in the group. So anyway, I guess he thought more of this girl and maybe he had a further interest in her as he acted not like his non-typical self and was a gentleman and asked if this girl wanted to sleep in his bed while he slept on the couch. But, she just wanted a hookup and that was it and ended up leaving right then and there at 2am since she wanted sex only. She left very quickly he said and told him she was only interested in a sex and nothing more and wouldn’t even stay at his house til morning if it wasn’t going to happen. This is why I don’t buy all the emotional BS. For reference the guy here was 30 years old and she was 30 or 31. Some men are more emotional than others, some females are more emotional than others. Some men are emotionless and cold and so are some females. Stop reading into the oxytocin BS too much. There is a lot more to a person’s self-conscious and how they act than oxytocin. There are a ton of other hormones, chemicals, genetic patterns and reasons why people are who they are and act like they do.
Sparkling Emerald says
Kart T & Tom – Thanks for letting me grill you and for your responses. I still think men do the hump and dump way more than women. Despite the lovely story of the ONS girl, I don’t think her behavior is typical of women. And if that’s your reason why you ” don’t buy all the emotional BS,” then you aren’t judging people as individuals as you claim. And if you consider women’s emotions to be BS, why are you on this blog ? Remember, this is a blog mainly for women who want to fall in love. Most of the letters and blog comments will reflect that. And it’s about the typical experience of dating not the exception, and the girl that you told us about is most likely an exception. So just because someone says something in her post about “we women . . .” doesn’t mean she thinks ALL women do this and that all men NEVER do that etc, but that’s not what this blog is about. LC didn’t mention starving children in 3rd world countries either, doesn’t mean she doesn’t know they exist.
I think more men get more ticked off about getting dumped without getting humped. More women get hurt by being humped and dumped.
I don’t consider someone breaking off an established relationship that included sex to be humping and dumping, that’s just a break up.
I don’t consider someone disappearing online, after what looked like a promising prospect to meet face to face, to be a hump and dump, because there was no humping to begin with. That’s just being flakey. And considering that almost everyone online is communicating with several people at once, I expect it, and don’t get upset about it. I’ve even flaked out myself. Mostly when the e-mail exchange just goes on and on, and the guy never asks for my phone # or to meet face to face. If we have started moving towards a meeting, and I change my mind, I’ll usually let them know by saying something along the lines of “Thanks for taking the time to get to know me, but I am unable to meet with you” I usually don’t get even that much,( I usually get a bizarre story about I can’t meet when we said we would, but I’ll get back to you later, and of course they never do) but really I don’t care. I can’t get upset about someone I haven’t seen face to face.
Karl T says
Sparkling #61,
But you didn’t ask us to elaborate about women on this blog. You asked us to elaborate about our experiences with women and being on the other end of a casual sexual encounter. Yes, maybe my example was in the minority of women, but it is NOT a rare example!! It happens far more than you think. Like I said, I think you are out of touch with the current reality of dating or perhaps the reality of dating for people in their mid 20’s to mid 30’s. Maybe it’s different for 50 somethings, I wouldn’t know.
And you only proved my point further that I judge people individually. I don’t look at a person and say, she’s a woman she is not going to want a one night stand or she will be too emotionally upset if we have a one night stand. Some women will have a tough time while others will have an easier time than most men. I am good friends with a girl who had tons of one night stands in her 20’s. I was actually shocked when I found that out because I would have never guessed that of her. When I asked her why, she told me she was really into the bar scene back then.
As for your comment about a woman having sex right away with the intention of a relationship and then breaking up……that is the same friggin thing as casual sex in my book. If it makes it easier for women to put a label on it as the start of an offical relationship, let them do that if it soothes their conscience, but make no mistake it is the same thing. There is no start of a relationship when you have sex on the first or second date. That is BS. I have experienced women placing such a label on things as you described and I laugh at them. Are they afraid to face the truth?? After the first or second date there IS NO RELATIONSHIP.
When I mention “emotional BS” I am referring to the women on this blog that blame everything on oxytocin. I did not mean that people’s emotions are BS and that I didn’t care about them. Maybe I should start saying things like “It wasn’t me, it was testosterone that caused me to want to hump and dump you…” LOL.
People have brains beyond chemical reactions and hormone levels.
Tom N says
As a male, I agree with Michelle at #12. I actually like women to show vulnerability. It is endearing. I also dont mind a bit of neediness. It makes me feel needed. I really prefer women to be natural and feminine and to show they want a relationship (that is what I want, too). I do not enjoy chasing women and tend to go for women who show the most interest in me or who tend to be obviously the softest or most feminine (as well as good looking).
Tom N says
In my last comment, I meant to say that I agreed with Michelle #14 (not 12).
Sparkling Emerald says
Kart T #62
Maybe I should start saying things like “It wasn’t me, it was testosterone that caused me to want to hump and dump you…” LOL.
People have brains beyond chemical reactions and hormone levels.
_________
Maybe you should join the crowd, because men have been talking about being hardwired by evolution to “spread their seed” to explain their need to bed as many women as possible before settling down with one, or with no intention of settling down with one ever. The thing I find laughable about the whole “seed spreading” excuse, is I highly doubt that any of these men want those seeds they are spilling to take root anywhere and grow into babies. If they or the seed recipient are using any kind of BC, then no seed is being spread. (Except in the case of BC failure)
I agree that people have brains beyond chemical reactions and hormone levels, but pro-creation is still the driving force behind our sex drive, even tho with civilization and our complex human emotions, there is much more to sex than pro-creation. Men are drawn to women with a particular hip to waist ratio and particular boob size because those signal fertility, men are drawn to that trait even if they do not desire children. Women are drawn to men who are physically stronger because they still enjoy feeling “protected”, even tho the big strong man could be replaced with a hand gun.
You also said
______________
As for your comment about a woman having sex right away with the intention of a relationship and then breaking up……that is the same friggin thing as casual sex in my book.
_________________
I looked through all my comments and didn’t see where I quite said that, but I guess I can see how you inferred that. Truth is, many women have a biind spot, and really do think (or hope) sex on a first or second date can lead to a relationship. And, many posters here have claimed to be in LTR’s that started with sex on a first or second date. So if a woman really is hoping for a relationship, and the guy gives her the cold shoulder the morning after, she would just be compounding her mistake to chase him after that. Unfortunately many women do. But the women who just let the disappearing man disappear aren’t humpers and dumpers. (They’ve actually been dumped, but according to you, they are supposed to call the guy & chase any way) Dating coaches have been warning women, “Sex won’t bond him to you, but it will bond you to him” If a woman has first date sex in hope of a relationship, that’s not being casual, that’s being niave.
If she thinks to herself before hand “Hmm, definitely not LTR material, but I’m horny and he’s willing so I’ll go for it” and then flakes out, then she’s the humper & dumper. But I believe that she’s not typical. I still believe the number of males who participate in pre-meditated H&D’s is far greater than women who do so. Of course there are exceptions, and apparently you know all five of those women. 🙂
Sparkling Emerald says
Tom N – 63
Thank you Tom ! It is nice to know that some men don’t think of a woman’s desire for love and connection as some sort of pathology. And won’t freak out, if something in her eyes, or voice tone , or her smile, or the way she gets all snuggly in response to his touch gives away the emotions she’s trying to conceal.
Ed says
Bartender. That’s all I had to read.
1. Can’t get a real job.
2. Probably doesn’t want a real job.
3. Alcohol and substance abuse problems.
4. Playa playa (high STD risk).
5. Probably has at least one kid out of wedlock floating around out there.
And you are your typical obsessed young-20’s girl that adds fuel to the fire. Well, we all have to learn the hard way…
GL says
This is spot on.
Lisa says
I generally agree with you! Unless they are in college which they could be based on the age. It may be a college job. Otherwise yes spot on.
GL says
I would say he’s a jerk and that creates insecurity. A nice person wouldn’t say you are being insecure by casually asking why he didn’t get back to you. A nice person responds: oh I was busy. I do agree that if you aren’t committed you don’t have ‘rights’ to his time, but if he is behaving like a boyfriend a casual question like that shouldn’t phase him. He’s keeping his options open. I would feel really bad if I didn’t get a kiss if that was the normal behavior. You’re with a good guy when you don’t feel jipped like this. I have to admit I have done a little cyber-stalking…but you know what? Everyone leaves their photos up to be viewed. My last jerk boyfriend had tons of pictures of exes, and not just friend pictures. Cuddly lovey pictures. It caused problems and did not make me feel any more secure with the relationship. If he could foster a secure relationship I probably wouldn’t have been bothered by it the way I was. I think it’s important to always keep your options open and try not to get attached emotionally at all in the beginning. That’s my next personal challenge. Don’t get attached!
GL says
I also wanted to add to what I wrote. The wisdom I gained from dating jerk-man is that you have to let them not text back. He was super heavy on texting in the beginning and I reacted incorrectly when he started focusing on his own life again. It looked to him like I didn’t have a life…and well, I DIDN’T. I bet frequenting this bar is putting this guy off. My last jerk-man was also a bartender and his flirting and even kissing his girl-friends on the cheek didn’t bother me. It was his psycho relationship with his ex girlfriend and constantly telling me about his experiences with his exes that made me feel threatened…Once again I wish I never got attached to this guy! Biggest thing I learned that you have to match their texts, you can’t text them more than they do to you. They feel bothered. I reread my texts and I can see how jerk-man thought I looked crazy. It was like…I want constant attention from you all day long! Recently I’ve been getting a life, it’s awesome. I will not prioritize for guys either unless it’s in my best interest. Slow and steady wins the race. Let them come to you.
Lisa says
I’m in my 30s but in my 20s dating was much different, at least early 20s. No online dating, no social media, no texting. Sure there were players and bartenders well generally people knew they were and still do. But I feel for those in their 20s now because they never knew what dating was like before and it was a lot better. Online dating has made a lot more men like the guy in this letter. So while before it was maybe 20% now it’s is more like 60% and that’s men in their 30s in her age range it’s probably more like 80%. Online dating and tinder and such have allowed pretty much any man that wants to to be a player. Before men did not have these options or if they did they had no way of contacting them. So even below average looking Joe Smo who in my college years could not get a date to save his life is s stringing along 10 women. In areas like DC or NY where women outnumber men dudes have 10 and 15 women no matter the age range. Women by nature are driven to settle down, most men are not. Even those that are, get the kid in the candy store or I’m missing out mentality. The only way a man stops this is if he wants to commit. The problem is EMK over estimates the men that do. So women put up with this because this is all there is. It makes up such a large percentage of men the choices are don’t date or date them. For younger women they may think this is how men are!
DinaStrange says
Girls should really hold off on having sex – this would have created enough security in her.
Just my quarter.
bianca says
Maybe don’t sleep with a guy within a month and no commitment.