How Do I Avoid Wasting Time on Players and Narcissists?
- Boyfriend Material, Understanding Men
Dear Evan,
I think your male point of view may help women spot the good guys. You advise us to be careful with the alphas and Mr. Know-it-all types. Well, it’s not always easy to spot them for women, especially for the attractive ones. It’s easier for men to know other men, you can easily say if such guy is a player or not; but it’s sometimes difficult for women due to the mixed signals. I’m physically a very attractive woman, and this is sometimes a real curse since a lot of men compete for my attention, and they all seem nice, compassionate, chivalrous, and generous at the beginning, even the alphas and know-it-alls. They keep a low profile, at least for a while. I never know their real faces until I’m invested.
I wish there was a way — a kind of test for women to figure out who can walk their talks, who is genuinely compassionate and kind, before we got emotionally invested. I’m an observant person. I observe how they treat waiters etc., yet some of men are really good at hiding their true selves for a long time (until they’re sure of you). It’s a very frustrating experience for me. I wish women could have practical tools to measure up men before they got involved and eliminate the narcissists/players.
I’m looking forward for your advice from the male perspective.
—Ashley
Dear Ashley,
You didn’t ask me a question. You made a statement:
“It’s hard to tell if a man is a good guy. I would love to have a magic wand that would let me know if I’m wasting my time.”
Well, you’re in luck, my friend.
If your biggest concern is that everyone puts on his best face for a long time, then the ONLY thing you can do is sit back and observe him.
You asked for a “test” that women can give to men to figure out which ones are truly kind and compassionate, instead of selfish players.
I’m not sure if you were looking for a physical object (like the aforementioned magic wand), a personality test (like the 436 questions on eHarmony’s profile), or maybe just a subtle series of questions that you can drop into every day conversation (ex. “Are you a player or are you a genuinely sincere guy?”)
If it sounds like I’m teasing you, Ashley, well, I am.
Because, no matter how important such “tests” are (and they are), and how much women want them (a lot), they all pale in comparison to the one test that I can offer that’s close to foolproof.
Yes, this is a test that everybody knows about and it’s FAR more effective than “So, where do you see yourself in five years?”. And yet somehow, it’s not considered very popular in the female community.
You ready for it?
It’s called “the test of time”.
If your biggest concern is that everyone puts on his best face for a long time, then the ONLY thing you can do is sit back and observe him.
Literally ANYTHING else you try to do to “weed him out” is going to be obvious, tone-deaf, and likely ineffective.
How do I know this? Because, by your logic, my wife would have weeded me out really early on. Check out these red flags.
– We hooked up (without sleeping together) for a month before I became her boyfriend.
– I didn’t see her six times a week; closer to 3 times.
– I was never “whipped” and never had the “you just know” feeling.
– I didn’t tell her I loved her for six months.
– I had never had a girlfriend for longer than 8 months before.
– She wasn’t my “type” — liberal, Ivy League, ambitious, East Coast.
– I was open about my confusion and ambivalence. After 16 months, I was either going to propose or break up and I didn’t know which.
So why did my wife keep me around?
Because she could tell that I was 100% authentic.
If a man wants to get married and start a family one day, he’ll bring it up. If he never brings it up, he probably doesn’t want it.
That I kept absolutely no secrets.
That I really did want to settle down and start a family.
That my moral code and integrity were my most valued traits.
So even though she could tell that I had a wide alpha-male, know-it-all streak, it was always tempered by the fact that I was sensitive, open and honest with her — even when I was confused about our future.
If she had pressed me after one month or three months as to whether I intended on marrying her, it would have been a mistake.
After six months, as I said, I loved her, but I didn’t KNOW anything for sure.
And that, to me, Ashley, is your blind spot. You seem to think that a man is a player if he doesn’t want to marry you. I’d say that there are definitely some bad apples out there, but that EVERY man is a player until he finds the woman with whom he wants to stop playing.
Who is that woman going to be?
Most likely, it’s going to be the one who is confident enough in herself and her judgment to not have to administer “tests” to her boyfriend, no matter how fearful you are about wasting your time.
So, to come full circle, let’s give you something you can take away from this article — apart from the concept of being cool and patient and letting the man reveal himself over time.
Pay attention to whether your boyfriend shares the same life goals as you. If a man wants to get married and start a family one day, he’ll bring it up. If he never brings it up, he probably doesn’t want it. And that will probably mean that you’re wasting your time.
But IF he wants to one day get married and start a family, literally the ONLY thing you can do is sit back and watch him for two years to determine if you think HE’S worth of being your husband for the next FORTY years. If he passes that test, he may be worth your time.
Grace Pamer says
Great post Evan. It really is so tricky but as you say you really do need to invest some time in each person or you’ll never get to see their true colors. Even the best, most authentic, compassionate people can have periods of their lives (especially in their’s 20’s) where they don’t know what they want long term. The best you can do, as you clearly did Evan, is be honest and upfront. Love can grow stronger over time and it’s only when a shared vision of a couples future hones into view that some people will suddenly realize they want something they never knew they would have before.
Have a great day
Grace
Jenna says
You can weed out most time wasters in just a couple months by delaying sex for 2 months and exclusivity. Men are generally considerate in that if they know a girl is relationship oriented and not into sleeping around, they don’t try to waste anybody’s time. Beyond that, I wish Evan had more of a middle ground when it comes to making sure a guy you’re in a ltr with had the same goals beyond just playing it cool. If you’re six months in it seems reasonable to check in about longer term goals. Not saying either of you has answers at that point, but you can at least feel out whether you’re on the same page. I still do have great faith in men on this one – 90 percent of time wasters reveal themselves as such by the six week mark.
Michelle says
” literally the ONLY thing you can do is sit back and watch him for two years to determine if you think HE’S worth of being your husband for the next FORTY years ”
This is the key, although I would strongly argue it doesn’t take anywhere near 2 years to see if he’s worthy of being a good husband. One easy test is to see how he reacts when you tell him “no”, and I don’t mean to sex.
(Why is it so many women on this blog think they are cat’s ass in regard to their looks and bodies? Kindof tiresome since we all know looks have absolutely nothing to do with what kind of partner or person someone is. I think I’m an average looking woman, and have never had a problem attracting and/or keeping quality men.)
Evan Marc Katz says
@Michelle – You can get hints that someone is NOT a good husband while dating, but you’re taking a risk if you’re planning on getting married anytime before two years. I can’t tell you how many readers/clients have told me that their relationships were great for 1-2 years, then they got married and saw a different side of him.
Sonia Ellem says
3 years is the timeframe for Australian men to hold it together … their “impress her” act, I mean. I do understand what Ashley is saying. So many guys are very good at “conning” women into long-term relationships by being someone they are not until the woman is comfortable … or, so I thought. Then I discovered Evan’s wonderful words of wisdom. You are like a sledge-hammer my man. Now I feel pretty stupid for not picking up on the the cues. For ignoring the red flags. For accepting the unacceptable. And, for not treating the dating game as seriously as I treat my work related recruitment (best tip ever by the way). All I can say is “Thank-you Evan”. New confidence here. It’s onward and upward for me.
CJ says
I’m Australian, I had NOT ONE indication prior to the wedding that he was an abuser. The very day after the wedding, he tore a magazine out of my hands, threw it out of the window and called me a bitch. Totally out of the blue. I had paid for the wedding. I was stunned. I thought it was an anomaly. A once off. But no. It repeated intermittently with enough time in between to put it down to ‘stress’ or whatever other bullshit excuse he came up with. If he had done that prior to marriage, I would have walked away. Because of the dumb ‘save your marriage’, ‘never give up’ bullshit you only ever read 25 years ago, I kept at it. Now, I know what to look for – they usually out themselves way before 3 years – usually on the first date. But then, I am now extremely stringent and NO exceptions, excuses or bending of boundaries. I tell younger women to walk away now as soon as he messes up – he won’t change – he will only expect you to bend. I know this now. Finally, I have boundaries.
Noelle says
The better u look the more players u attract Trying to compete with you in a hotness contest
Julia says
Michelle, being very attractive is similar to being very wealthy, and it complicates things a lot. Does a prospective partner like you, or do they like your looks or money? Are they attracted to you for who you are, or because you’re a trophy? Some good people may even be intimidated and think they don’t stand a chance. So maybe having average looks weeds out more of the players and narcissists and leaves more of the “quality men.”
Miranda says
I can agree. I am told that I am very attractive, and I have only found players that wanted me for my body. They didn’t care at all about my thoughts or personality.
adynasty says
Yes the players are out there… So good at charming, doing and saying all the right things… to win you over. In my experience if I had waited on sex and never been generous (I like nice restaurants, he couldn’t afford)… I would have avoided much heart ache. Many lessons learned about dating closer to my financial status and looking at character and intregrity first… My “type” has changed dramatically…
Jennifer G says
Michelle, I hope this doesn’t sound rude, but as a very attractive woman myself who is pursued by many men, your struggle is not the same as mine. I am finally realizing that when you’re a physically attractive person, when men see you, they instantly become interested sexually. They kind of turn into zombies. I dont think its anything they can really help, its a natural reaction just like it is for me when i see an attractive man. Although, because men and women are so very different, it doesn’t affect me the same as it does him. Somehow it’s a big distraction for men and it becomes their #1 goal to have sex with you. They then act accordingly to achieve their goal. When you are an “average looking” (your words) person, that distraction does not exist and it is much easier to tell what a man’s true intentions really are. I am not saying they dont want to have sex with the average looking but that distracting desire is not there. And it’s easier to have a real conversation with him, because he doesnt have his mind focused on how to get in your pants”‹ or what you look like naked or what it would be like to finally achieve that. He is focused on you. The real you. He is probably actually even listening to what you’re saying too. I know many average looking people who, just like you, do not have an issue with finding quality people to date or get into a relationship. I envy the average looking! Because this goal is pretty much all they can think about, they have a hard time thinking of anything else and focusing on how to build something secure or connect in other ways. Like men do, if they achieve this goal too soon, they didnt have anything else to keep them around so they lose interest or only want sex afterward. I have actually found several articles and opinions about this and even discussed this with a close male friend. This is a real thing. I think it has a lot to do with why a lot of attractive people are single and confused as to why. I know not every single man can’t control himself. A real gentleman whose goal is a serious commitment may be able to control his desires because i had that once. Want to say i really think that especially for more attractive people, waiting for sex is definitely the best thing to do of you want a serious commitment, and to weed out the fakes. But a good rule for everyone, obviously. I’d like to know Evan’s thoughts on this.
Annette says
so untrue. If you’re not an average looking woman then how on earth would you know if they get used for sex or not? I am considered “ugly” yet i can safely say that men still only want in my pants. They like you said will do anything to get it acting the nice guy. It doesn’t matter what you look like men will still want the goods.
Yet Another Guy says
@Annette
so untrue. If you’re not an average looking woman then how on earth would you know if they get used for sex or not?
You are on the money. Jennifer G does not have a clue as to how men operate. Men sort women into three categories when it comes to being more than friends; namely, girlfriend material, just sex, and no, just no. I can assure Jennifer G that the difference between “girlfriend material” and “just sex” has nothing to do with looks. I can also assure Jennifer G that if a man is not thinking about what a woman looks like naked on the first date, there will be no second date. I am willing to bet that the reason why Jennifer G falls into the “just sex” category is due to her personality and attitude. I can also assure her that the distracting desire to just have sex exists for women who are not beautiful. If a woman has a nice body and a sensual way, she will attract men who want to have sex. Men have a saying about the desire to have sex with a woman having nothing to do with her face.
Corinne M. says
I also am no femme fatale, yet I seem to attract narcissists and players who just want sex, but are not honest about anything. The fact that I am full figured and very old fashioned seems to give them the impression that I have no standards or I am a challange.
I just refuse to go out with players or take their requests seriously. Not worth my time. Not interested. Honesty and integrity are rare but I would rather spend my time on other things on my life until and unless I find someone who has both.
Michelle says
Thanks for sharing this.
Michelle
Ginny says
YES, setting healthy boundaries and having confidence is a great way to get a narcissistic to let his/her mask slip. They will feel the need to put you in your place or make you feel confused or less-confident. They don’t start with big red flags though, it’s little ones first to test what you will put up with in order to be with them. This is why Evan’s tried and true advice about checking in with yourself to see if you feel “safe, heard, and understood” is so solid. But you really have to be willing to listen to yourself and not sweep everything under the rug. And yes, time is the other key ingredient. If you find yourself going crazy, trying harder and harder to get back to what it felt like at the beginning of the relationship, it’s time to bounce.
In Hiding says
It wouldn’t take me two years to figure it out. Inside a year is pretty good.
Ruby says
“EVERY man is a player until he finds the woman with whom he wants to stop playing.” I don’t see how a man can be a player and be “100% authentic” at the same time (not pointing the finger at EMK personally here). If a man is authentic, and does have integrity, then he’s not going to waste anyone’s time for more than a few dates. I think the OP is referring to men who are not like this, and more than a few of them exist, unfortunately.
I’ve had to make a decision to trust my gut. if a man acts like a jerk in any way during the first few weeks of dating, I’d cut him loose, despite his protests for another chance. It might sound harsh, but I’d expect a man to be on his best behavior during the early weeks of dating.
Ashley wrote, “…it’s sometimes difficult for women due to the mixed signals.” i’d argue that mixed signals are a red flag, a man’s way of keeping one foot out the door. At best, it’s a sign that a man is very ambivalent. A man doesn’t need to know that he wants a permanent relationship within the first couple of months of dating, but he has to see a woman as a serious prospect.
I’d also argue that many men are not like EMK. If they are not feeling the “magic” from the get-go, they don’t stick around for the long haul.
Ivy says
@Ruby – I agree with what you wrote, if a man is a player he isn’t being 100% authentic. And I think the men who make the best husbands, the men I look at who are committed to their family and wives, well, sorry but they were NOT players before marriage. Maybe they met women they weren’t interested in, but they were not players and I don’t believe they led the woman on, maybe they were confused or ambivalent, but that is different than being a player. Players lie, cheat, manipulate, and typically want more than one woman. My roommates friend nailed a player, real titles, boyfriend, girlfriend, he even talked of marriage and kids, and she ended it with him, but low and beyold the player that oh, so reformed, he had cheated and bragged about it several times. So in my opinion, players real ones, don’t make good husbands.
And some men just sting women along who they know they don’t see a future with. So women really do have a lot of responsiblity to weed out men with poor relationship prospect early on.
Jester says
I’m a man, I have spoken with men of all sorts, all are players, all would like to ‘do’ as many girls/women they can get away with without getting caught either by being careless or finding a woman/person they cannot be without in what ever that is for them.
Maria says
I totally agree with you. I don’t think the statement that “every men are players before they get marry” is 100% true. A few signs of a player is that they are unauthentic, dishonest and manipulative. These men, even if they do end up marring someone down the road, will not be a good husband and probably will hurt or cheat on their spouse in the long run. At the end of the day a woman isn’t just looking for someone to marry but to have a loving, healthy and safe marriage. Getting marry isn’t the end goal but sharing a life with someone who’s righteous and healthy is key.
Fiona says
Useful advice although I also think Evan you were lucky to find your wife. Having met enough player types in my life, I tend to write men off if they don’t show serious interest in me from the outset.
RW says
@Ruby
A man could be a player and 100% authentic if he was upfront about his playah intentions! I know it rarely works this way but in theory, I guess it’s possible.
@Michelle
Maybe they really are cat asses when it comes to looks 😛 You’re right that it doesn’t say a whit about what kind of people they are but all other things being equal, it should be easier to initiate the search for a mate the more attractive you are. Are you annoyed that they think highly of themselves because it can’t be true or because it’s not relevant to the discussion?
@Ashley
You mentioned that men don’t reveal their true colours until you’re invested. Are we talking about an emotional investment? Physical investment? Or just a time investment? I do agree that time is the best indicator but maybe there are steps you can take to guard yourself from the emotional trap until you’re more sure of the man and his intentions. I’m also curious what you mean by “hiding their true selves”. Is it generally that the man isn’t interested in anything long term? Or that he is only interested in himself? Does he cheat?
uigs says
@RW – “…it should be easier to initiate the search for a mate the more attractive you are.”.
It is easier to find dates the more attractive you are but I’ve never ever seen any evidence that more attractive people find better quality partners, who are compatible and where if they marry bliss is higher and divorce is lower.
Also, the more attractive you are the more frogs and frogettes you will have to kiss before finding your truly compatible mate.
Superficial attraction may equal lots of dates but it never is a guarantee for true love. Kim Kardashian is man’s ideal for looks and wow, what a success for true love, Jennifer Aniston got cheated on, supermodel Christy Brinlkly 3 kids and 5 divorces still looks hot, yeah that’s truel lasting love, —– so much for more mates.
Lucy says
I’m tired of men sometimes. I’ve experienced my fair share of players and narcissists. I’m better at figuring out the predatory types than I used to be but people can take you by surprise. I wouldn’t say I don’t believe good men are out there, because I really do. But I’ve revised down my standards i.e. I don’t expect much from men. I expect men to be like overgrown children because that’s what the men in my life have been like. It kind of jars with me. Should I put those standards back up again?
Yulia says
I think you definitely should put those standards back up! From my experience I know – good men exist.The hard part is to meet one :).There is no perfect formula how to do it.Some people find their sole mates in high school and other might search for decades. There r a few things that help:
– don’t settle till you’ll find the right guy.
– go on as much dates as you can.
– don’t have any expectations from any man.
– don’t give them any credit either.
– the more men you’ll meet – the more chances you can find the good person.
Christine Fadgen says
I agree to not settle. Keep dating till you find someone who is husband material.
dlw says
I am with Yulia. Like you, I have experienced too many players and FAR too many narcissists (I do not use this term haphazardly) . EMK was spot on in my opinion, when he states that the only test is “the test of time”. As time passes, we all reveal our true selves. Once we, those in relationships, allow our character to unfold, then we have enough information, the honeymoon time has elapsed and now the responsibility is on us to decide what we will do with the information that this test of time has provided us. Is our self knowledge and self esteem aligned with using these metaphorical test results in such a way that we act as EMK puts it, as the successful CEO of our lives? As Yulia concurs, yes, you should hold your high standards up because you hold yourself to these same standards. As such, you deserve someone who treats you with the respect that you treat yourself.
Liz says
Ashley makes a good point that women are not as good as men at judging a man’s character. For women, chemistry can cloud the equation and blind us to their faults. Even our female friends can be won over by the charm of a narcissist.
Look how this can be used in a positive way: MEN are generally not fooled. Sometime in those 6 weeks I bet there’s a party or perhaps he can meet you at happy hour with some work buddies. If there’s a male friend or colleague who cares about you, ask his opinion! Go on a double date with a friend and her BF or husband and then ask the guy later what he thought of your new date.
Men will almost always be able to sniff out a guy who’s up to no good. They have a gut feeling about it. And generally speaking, they will tell you. That is, if you’re “safe” to talk to….which means you’re genuinely interested in their opinion and don’t already have a right and wrong answer in your head.
Mercedes says
I really like what you say here: “Because she could tell that I was 100% authentic.That I kept absolutely no secrets. That I really did want to settle down and start a family. That my moral code and integrity were my most valued traits. So even though she could tell that I had a wide alpha-male, know-it-all streak, it was always tempered by the fact that I was sensitive, open and honest with her — even when I was confused about our future.”
I struggle with the two year thing (yet I respectfully understand why you suggest it) but I certainly see the value in staying with a man longer (without any type of commitment) when the above qualities are there in the person you are (or are falling) in love with.
Nice article.
M
Ruby says
I also wanted to add that I don’t think that the first 4 examples on EMK’s list of his early dating behaviors with his wife were red flags at all, but signs that he was being careful. #6 wouldn’t be a red flag unless he told his girlfriend that was how he felt. #5 might be a yellow flag. The most troubling point would be the last one, but fortunately for everyone, EMK made the right decision in the end. Many men just let their confusion and ambivalence will out.
Greg says
Evan, I have been ready your website for about a year now and have spent more than an few hrs reading old postings as well. Your readers’ questions, your responses and their feedback have given me a new framework on meeting, greeting, dating and building relationships with women… and I am a professional divorced white male, 56 yrs old.
However, in my ‘bracket’ does 1-2 years really work for people at this stage of life?. I have gone out with 46-67 year old women during the past 18 months. Many DO want an answer at 30-90 days if you are now in an exclusive relationship..I get that, and think its reasonable.
But many want to be close to arranging a wedding or move in date within 8-12 mths… not 2 years. The re-occurring principle I hear is that at ‘our age’ life is too short to start over ever 1-2 years. When I mention the divorce rate is even higher second time around… women generally wave the hand and tell me this concern is overblown!!?? So how do your guidelines work for those over 50 whose ‘family’ days are more towards becoming grandparent than an new father?
Evan Marc Katz says
@Greg – Your comment completely made my case.
Yes, women do want to know within a month or two if you’re her boyfriend. I think this is completely fair and most men who are interested are eager to be exclusive at this point.
Now that you’re exclusive, the next two years (or so) should be spent figuring out whether it’s a good idea to buy a ring, sell your home, sign a contract and merge lives forever.
That’s no small undertaking, and yet when women are pushing to get this answer (so as to avoid wasting time/getting hurt) they often fail to grasp the gravity of the situation. Plus, the fail to consider the situation from your side.
Your concern is not at all overblown, Greg. Neither is a woman who makes an eager man wait two years before engagement.
“Life is too short” is, plain and simple, a shitty argument. If you’re happily dating for two years, what’s the rush to put a ring on it? Fear. Your life doesn’t become instantly superior with a ring on your finger. You’re just locked in permanently. The rewards for marriage build over time – and they’re more evident in five years than they are in two years.
So hold your ground, my friend, and remind your girlfriends that the right man will choose her on HIS (reasonable) timetable. The more she pushes for a ring out of fear, the less likely she is to get one. I don’t care if every 60 year old wants to get married within a year. Most of them have the dating experience of 23-year-olds and don’t know any better.
Chloe says
@Greg (and Evan) – while I fully agree with 60-90 days logic around getting exclusive and 2 year or so mark for deciding whether to take it to the next level, why it is framed that this is always women who push for the fast solution? In my experience, it is the opposite. The last gentleman I dated (54 y.o., and I am 45) in two weeks was already talking about introducing me to his family and everything else along those lines, which obviously scared me away very quickly. Another gentleman I dated previously within a few months was talking about moving together. Do not generalize please. There are a lot of lonely and needy people out there unfortunately, regardless of their gender. But would you feel comfortable around a woman who is confident, independent, self-respectful and is choosing on HER (reasonable) timetable? Probably, not. Hence those ladies attracted to and sticking around the alfa males are exactly who alfas attract…needy, insecure, clingy. Am not criticizing; just saying. Think about it.
Greg says
Cloe and Evan…This topic came up in facebook and then I found a comment I made two years ago on waiting. Evan’s time and comments were generous These issues have no age boundaries!
Let me give you update. I started dating a beautiful 53 year old woman four years ago (I am now 60). The first two years were great. We took our time as our houses were only a mile apart and kept everything on an even keel. Two years ago, I made a career move to Houston and wanted her to join me. She resisted which sort made sense a it was a startup compnay and risk is not alway well receved as you get older. 18 months after I bought a new house, settled in and got her to agree to move, my spidey sense told me my job was in a lurch.
So I told her to put a hold on the move, etc until March or April went budgets came out. My concern played out and I was jobless in an Oil and Gas depressed economy here in Houston. All the time, while in Houston, I spent long weekend, holidays, and vacations with her and family, happily. Due to job searching I even spent the Thsgiving and Xmas (six weeks) with her. Once my job landing is secured, her relocation can be figured out or I can simply retire and return to Chicago and operate from there. Full transpancey and full intent detailed and agreed by both of us.
Remember: four months to become a couple, four years exclusive with intent for another 25 years in the works. On Sunday she turned her phone off… goes dark vs 3 -4 chats a day to keep it flowing and connection.
On monday, I am told (via cell at 1030 PM) that she is lonely and is now turned off by my recent weight gain. So now she wants to start dating ‘again’ and finds me too unattactive to continue. Regardless of my assurances that this speedbump can be fixed and we have another 25 years to go, she wants to be free. (Another guy?, she says no… but who knows).
Botom line: Life will test your character and character is the final narrator of the next chapter in the Book of Life. I am reeling but will regain my footing in due course.
Ellen says
I generally agree with Evan, but understand the woman in a hurry ’cause of her biological clock.
I did not have to worry about the latter; still, like the OP, I, despite great intuition, several times had a hard time getting at my date’s intentions, true personality, etc. Time reveals all, yes, but if you’ve slept with the man and bonded it becomes difficult to extricate oneself sometimes or make a speedy exit when necessary. Especially nowadays when so many relationships are “mini” or long distance or fairly casual weekend affairs only. Those can take months to play out fully, those can take weeks and months for the man to finally reveal himself one way or another.
What I did when really befuddled was run the man’s astrological chart (time of birth is key). To that end I recommend Carol Allen’s “Right Man Report” at loveinstars.com I think the url is…..Three times the man’s chart was fairly dire or selfish or just plain negative but I hung on a little longer anyway. ALWAYS regretted it.
Carol is unique imo in that she gets into Vedic astrology moon subsigns or Nakshatras. I am Krittika and my bf is Pushya, a very good nurturing placement.
I also am a pretty good student of psychology now and pay particular attention to what the man talks about routinely and the type of projection he does. We all do it, but few are aware they do it (project). Google.
Also, harder to get at is his “attachment” style and “love personality”. But it helps to have this conversation. Now I just routinely tell the man I need to hear words of encouragement and love and that acts/gifts are far less important to me. But here’s the crux: Men are more adept at doing things, running errands, fixing things etc. to show their love rather than emote. It can be a dilemma so you have to be very clear as to what you need this way. Very clear.
No, imo too many men will inveigle himself into a woman’s heart and/or stick around for the sex only- so the woman has to be extra vigilant. The integrity just isn’t there often. Me, if I honestly feel I won’t feel it for the man after 2-3 dates, I cut him loose, no matter how lonely I am.
Nonetheless, I agree with Evan that two full years are needed to see the man in every circumstance. But not every woman has two years to “sit back and see what develops”. To return to astrology, my moon is in Aries (the bull), so I am a take charge type (quietly as possible! lol) in romance and in life in general. I’ve had to teach myself to relax and to go with the flow. To be patient.
Jenna says
To add, I certainly agree that women pushing prematurely for answers are often driven by fear and insecurity and a lack of confidence that even if this one man falls through good things await in the end. I was recently shocked to hear from a match date that so many women he goes out with are pushing him for answers and intentions, even his salary, on DATE ONE, and he really liked me because I was so no-pressure.
However, the advice to play it cool can also backfire and end up as a fear based approach as well if it’s not coupled with strong self esteem and other inner work. That’s why, though I appreciate Evan’s blog a great deal, I’ve gotten a bit more out of following Rori Raye because she does focus on how to raise concerns and needs in a non-threatening way to show you’re not a doormat either. I used to play it cool but feel like I had to sit around waiting to be chosen and have no control over anything, as many women do, and that’s not good either. (I realize that’s not the intention of Evan’s advice, but it can work out that way depending on one’s own issues.) I used to follow all of Evan’s mirroring advice, delayed sex, dated multiple people at once, etc., and it was still not working, because it wasn’t coupled with true, deep confidence that I was capable of getting a good man and that I had just as much power as any man in the dating scene. I decided to turn around all the negative thoughts I had about men because when I kept voicing worry in my head along the lines of this poster (I’m attractive, so a lot of guys have this superficial interest in me, how do I ever tell who really likes me, guys are good at hiding their true intentions) I just kept getting guys who had superficial interest. I decided to turn it around in my head as a compliment that because I’m attractive and interesting I’m going to get more superficial attention than others, and there’s a slight downside to that but ultimately many good men are interested in a relationship with me and I’m going to keep having a great time dating until something works out for me very shortly.
Mickey says
I’m not sure I agree. As I mentioned in a prior post, I’m convinced now more than ever that most women have low tolerance for, and even lower expectations the male of the species. So, I find it hard to believe that there are so many women out there looking for a long term relationship, or even marriage when too many are convinced that men are worthless without trying to give them a fair shot.
As one poster mentioned to me not too long ago, “this is a world of opportunity, not scarcity.” Could have fooled me.
nikoletta says
The post is really nice but when a woman is over 35 years old her biological clock is ticking really hard. We don’t feel we have the luxury of time and our desire to have a kid is really stressful. What do you think about us Evan?
Maybe consider becoming single mothers? Time passes so fast for us unfortunately..
Evan Marc Katz says
It doesn’t matter if you’re 35, Nikoletta. If a man wants kids, he has as much at stake as you do.
You have to let a marriage/children-oriented man choose you when he’s ready. You can’t push him to move faster than he’s ready – unless you want to scare him away.
Jasia says
‘It doesn’t matter if you’re 35, Nikoletta. If a man wants kids, he has as much at stake as you do.”
This statement is totally untrue, Evan. Shame on you.
‘ You have to let a marriage/children-oriented man choose you when he’s ready. You can’t push him to move faster than he’s ready — unless you want to scare him away.”
And this statement is true.
Alexandra says
Evan, very sensical advice as usual. Let’s say I’m a woman who agrees with you and takes your advice, plays it cool, doesn’t put pressure on the relationship and doesn’t want to rush into marriage because I want to increase the odds of making the right decision. But let’s also say that my boyfriend, who meets all my needs and is a great fit for me, didn’t read your advice and believes he just KNOWS I’m the woman for him, and he proposes before 2 years. What does a woman do? Say yes and use the engagement period to further evaluate the relationship? I don’t want to rush into marriage, but I do believe I am dating my future husband right now (your great advice is what helped me see that!)
Alyssa says
I agree, the test of time is the only way to really know. I’d also like to add that you have to take a certain degree of risk that someone may not turn out like you had originally thought. The test of time only works if you are open and fully participating in the relationship- you may very well end up with a broken heart- or you may very well end up in the relationship you’ve always wanted. Either way, at some point you just have to jump in and proceed with the assumption things will work out for the best.
Dawn says
Honesty, I think we all know. I don’t think we need any test to determine if a man is genuine or not. The truth is that most women refuse to acknowledge that little flag that goes up…We all want to be desired, we want to believe they are really interested in us, we don’t want to be alone. So when they do or say something that may be small, but makes you pause for even just a tiny moment, we brush it off. Then we say we didn’t know, or he was so good at hiding it.
I really believe that we know, we just don’t trust. We want something in your face obvious, when the cues are there the whole time.
Maybe that’s why she didn’t really ask you the point blank question. IMO it’s because it would mean we have to admit we ignored our gut on the hopes that we are wrong.
I wish more women would just trust themselves and stop blaming men for playing games. Stop blaming all together and honor your gut feelings. It is a RARE occasion that we really didn’t see anything, and that is usually because we don’t want to.
Kate says
Dawn – this is so TRUE! Thank you!
nicole says
Dawn – you’re so right. Excellent post. Thank you!
DinaStrange says
Right on!
Kai Webster says
Thank you Dawn.
Thank you, so much, for reiterating my thoughts.
I’ve been taking all of the dating advice, for years now and, when meeting new women, the things you have pointed out seem to be what pushes them away. And I end up, “ghosted.”
I just needed to know why; and not because there’s something wrong with me. (I’ve heard this all too often; men you’re doing this, men you’re doing that)
All I’ve done is live my life in congruence with my core values, and treat people accordingly. Eg; I treat each moment uniquely, I’m an open book of honesty, I am future-minded, I am family-minded, I repeat and offer my thoughts while listening, I genuinely love and commit myself to my friends and family, I maintain hobbies that keep me happy regardless of relation status, I maintain full-time employment, I exercise, I cook (well), I eat healthy, I state, “Please, ask me any questions,” because I genuinely enjoy listening and helping others and I genuinely have sensitive/strong empathy neurons, I study daily, and I’ve earned a collegiate degree.
Now, I understand that, generally, no person wants to hear/read, “I this, I that. Me, me me.” That’s not what I’m about. I embrace my insignificance, but cling to my values for their ultimate support.
I give myself… but 99% of the time, women aren’t mutually giving themselves. And, I truthfully believe it is because they are not listening, at least initially, to their gut.
Do you think, that a question such as, “Do you think intuitively and listen to your gut,” would be a good question for me to introduce early-on, in hopes of saving me some time and hassle?
I’m a great person, and I’m fed up with being treated like waste-bin remnants.
I’m not above the notion that I may be ignoring cues or am just ignorant when it comes to Women and gut reactions. I truly want a mutually benefiting relationship and to give and receive unconditional love.
Morris says
Unfortunately only time will tell how well two people get along. But I do echo what Jenna said. If you want to weed out the players just don’t have sex for a couple of months. It really does work. There are too many easy women for players to have sex with. He’s not going to waste that much effort for someone when there are other women out there.
Laine says
Alexandra- What you could say is that you love them, but feel it is too early for you to make a marriage committment at this stage, you want to be exlusive with them and continue to explore and grow together. Give him an indication of the time frame you are needing.
Zann says
Gotta say, I totally agree with Dawn (21). I’m embarrassed to admit how many times a large, obnoxious red flag has been waving in my face & I’ve ignored it. Oh, it’s not that I don’t see it, but it’s like I go into some kind of denial warp. For me, it’s usually when a man is simultaneously being flirtatious yet manipulative. Clearly, a little bell goes off but instead of heeding it, I treat it like the snooze button on my clock radio and hope against hope it won’t return again later. Except it always does.
For example, I was dating a man who told me he had a “5 Date Rule.” If he didn’t sleep with a woman by the end of date #5, he immediately moved on because after that point, he believed the window of opportunity had closed. All that remained possible would be a platonic friendship. Cunningly, I did the math & realized this was our date number 6. I told him I had no idea what he was talking about but asked if he realized my expiration date had passed. “Luckily,” he was making an exception for me because I was obviously one-of-a-kind, so special in fact that I was worth an extension. Now, part of me was awed & a little creeped out by this man’s level of manipulation and arrogance…. but then another part of me sat up a little straighter & thought: Wow, he’s really into me. So into me he’s willing to break his own rule!
I would like to say that I told him I was feeling a little “stale” and let’s call it a night. I did not. In fact, we became exclusive, but a year and a half later we were done; unfortunately, by then I had already turned a blind eye to so many of his Not-Boyfriend-Material antics that my self-respect was in the toilet. On top of that, I felt sad, while he clearly didn’t.
While there may be no test for sincerity and no reliable player-radar, I agree that time and patience are the best route to take. But use that time wisely and pay attention to the warnings, acknowledge them, and don’t cling to a bad relationship simply because you’ve invested time in it.
marymary says
Two years before the proposal seems long in my situation. We won’t have sex until marriage, nor will we live together or go on holiday together. BUT I’m mindful of the rush to marry just to have sex and that really would be disastrous!
I’m thinking a year to eighteen months, plus the engagement period. it’s not wildly off two years.
I don’t think anyone in any situation should do anything that can’t be easily gotten out of in the first six months. No engagement ring, no living together, no puppy,no baby.
The flipside is waiting too long. If it goes on for years it can be that one or both of you doesn’t want to get married. Or you get married cos it seems the logical next step. Then a day/week/year after the wedding someone *cough* (me) realises it was a mistake .
men want to get married just as much as women do. It’s not women buying all those engagement rings. There’s a lot of talk about masculine and feminine energy. I’m not sure of how much I agree with that but I do think that a man should be allowed to make that decision without feeling that he’s being pressed into it. Maybe I’m more traditional than I think. Friend of mine was, to put it bluntly, nagging her boyfriend to propose. I told her not to mention it for six months. Of course, he proposed well before the six months was up!
Rampiance says
EVERY man is a player until he finds the woman with whom he wants to stop playing. ~ EMK
Yes, THIS. Thank you so much for the perfectly timed advice. I was struggling to figure out what to do about a man I love very much, and who loves me, too. I thought we were on the same page until I learned that he has a lifelong goal that remains unachieved. I am not included in the picture with that goal, although I suspect that he thinks he can persuade me to go along with it since he is quite persuasive. It’s a nonstarter, though, and EMK’s statement above makes my decision easy.
Josie says
Thank you for this reminder. I have started to date this one guy, who honestly strikes me as a player type and his background and good fortune suggested bachelor party guy to me. But he has stated his desire to settle down on our dates, and so far he has been following up and has scheduled our next date several days in advance . I remain wary but receptive, doing my best to mirror his efforts and see where things go.
Selena says
Very much agree with Dawn and Zann. Infatuation is powerful. When I review my dating history every time I’ve been intensly physically attracted to a man right off – inevitably those ‘relationships’ proved to be brief and nothing more than casual. When I was younger I would blame the men. I felt like they “led me on” and I wondered how I misread their level of interest in me. I’d cry my eyes out and pine for months after they disappeared.
As I got older, I came to understand that it wasn’t so much that they ‘played’ me, it was my own infatuation that led me to believe there was more interest on their part than there actually was. There were signs that they weren’t that into me, but I didn’t see them, or ignored or dismissed them. I weighted some words and gestures more heavily than clearly was warranted. But this was a discovery in hindsight. In the depths of infatuation, I might not have been capable of such honest evaluation.
Agree with Evan, the only real test is the test of time. I will add though, that in early dating it can be helpful to keep one’s expectations modest. When we’re highly attracted, when we really hit it off with someone, imagination can take off creating a relationship in our mind before one has had a chance to develop. Understanding that is part of playing it cool. Watch. Observe. Good advice.
Michelle says
“I can’t tell you how many readers/clients have told me that their relationships were great for 1-2 years, then they got married and saw a different side of him.”
I think a lot of it comes from what others have said, women have a way of pushing stuff under the rug, justifying and making excuses. I’ve always been a ‘conscious’ woman and made justifications for marrying, even though I knew deep down it wasn’t going to be a forever thing. I wanted to have a family and wasn’t patient enough to wait for the right husband. He was/is a good guy, just not the right man for me. (Got 2 awesome kids out of it though, so no regrets!)
I’m not arguing the 2 year thing, I think that’s sound advice, no matter what age. I thought Greg’s question was a good one since I’m closer to his age. I would say get engaged at 2 years, then plan a wedding for the next year.
“You have to let a marriage/children-oriented man choose you when he’s ready. You can’t push him to move faster than he’s ready — unless you want to scare him away.” I LOVE this…HE has to ‘choose’, women accept or not accept–all through a relationship.
nikoletta says
I agree with Alyssa. You take the risk, trying to keep your eyes open without being blinded by chemistry. If he proves to be a jerk, bad for him.
Jane says
Yes, Dawn! A number of men may be narcissists, but we need to take personal responsibility for not wanting to see the yellow and red flags that present themselves. I, too, have been guilty of this–but I’ve also done a few things right. A little over a year ago, I met a man online who seemed to be the man of my dreams: A biotech consultant trying to change health care from within. He dressed well, owned a boat, was well educated, verbal, spontaneous, and ready for a relationship. He’d moved back to his home area (and commuted to a nearby city for work) to “reconnect with his values” and meet a woman who shared them. He swept me off my feet, wined me and dined me and showered me with gifts. He introduced me to his family and made plans to travel to meet mine. He immediately wanted exclusivity and to “book all of my free time,” and within a month told me that he loved me. Instead of saying it back, although I was falling fast for him, I asked him to talk to me about what love meant to him. His answer was pretty, but it wasn’t enough. I demonstrated to him through my actions that I was committed to him, but I also explained that as much as I desired a LTR and children (I’d just turned 37), I was happy and loved my life, and I wasn’t willing to take risks with that without the test of time. He remained steadfast. He said that in his line of work, he was expected to have a wife and children by now, and being a family man would earn him a different status in the industry. “But I’m a late bloomer,” he said. “And it’s rare that I meet someone with whom I can envision the rest of my life. But you struck me from the first, and I want this with you.” He won over my friends (most of them, anyway. I found out later that a few of the men were suspicious of him) and members of my family (although my mother said that he seemed like the kind of guy who doesn’t fight fair–and when I presented that to him in a non-threatening way, he agreed!) After several months, despite the flags I’d seen in his sense of entitlement, his volatility, and some inconsistencies, I’d fallen for the idea of him. But that wasn’t enough for him. “Please remember that I’ve been hurt before,” he said. “I’ve laid myself bare to you, made myself vulnerable. I need you to be as vulnerable to me as I am to you.” And here’s where I made the best decision of my life. I told him that I’d work on trusting his love for me, on showing him my love in the ways he needed. But I had a job I loved, too, and that job required a lot of travel interspersed with a lot of down time, and the travel over the next year was going to take me to some pretty incredible places. I wasn’t willing to give that up to rush into marriage and children, and I told him I thought it would be best to let our (seemingly perfect) relationship develop over time. “I love you,” I said, “and if a year from now our relationship is still this good–if it’s continued to grow–I will happily marry you and have your babies. Let’s just enjoy this time together.”
Six weeks later I discovered that he’d been living a double existence with another woman–despite the fact that we spent some part of nearly every day together. When confronted, he said, “For better or worse, I was conducting a clinical trial to see which of you fit best into my life. Apparently it’s for worse because now I’m not going to have either of you.” He was wrong. She forgave him. Within two months after finding out about me, she quit her job, moved with him to a nearby city, and got engaged. She’s in her early 30s, all her friends are getting engaged, he fits a package her parents wanted her to have, so she ignored the test of time. I’ve also since learned that she’s an heiress to a large fortune, which I’m sure he’ll find a way to use to his advantage. Meanwhile, I’d been coy about any money I stand to inherit, saying only that when an elder in my family passes on, funds are cycled back into the family business, of which I am not a part. I played my cards closer to my chest. I made it clear that I wasn’t desperate to walk down the isle with someone but wanted to make sure I’d found a true partner. I got hurt, but it’s nothing compared with the pain and suffering his soon-to-be wife (and possibly their children) will endure in the coming years.
Ultimately, I looked into his past a bit, talked to his ex girlfriends, and uncovered a slew of inconsistencies and lies, both in his personal life and professional life. The “love of his life” who’d broken his heart? She was afraid of him and broke up with him using the tactics one uses to escape an abuser. His first job in biotech that his resume lists as “consultant”? He monitored security cameras on the third shift. After seeking direction from professionals who work with and write about narcissists and other personality disorders, I was told repeatedly that I could, in good conscience, label this man a sociopath or subclinical psychopath.
He thought I’d be an easy mark because I’m getting older and don’t have all the time in the world to get what I want. But my insistence that our relationship needed to stand the test of time–without the distractions of an engagement or wedding planning–may have saved my life. It’s not just about healthy dating. I actually, perhaps literally, dodged a bullet.
To my fellow women on the dating scene: Please be careful out there. And if his ex-girlfriends warn you about him, please listen. Yes, there are few scorned women out there who are lashing out, but these pathological men use these few to their advantage. We women can be each other’s best sources for information, if we’re open to it. Remember, juvenile antics aside, past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior.
mel says
You were smart.
Caroline says
Jane, thanks for sharing. I’m so pleased that you escaped from him.
I recently dated a narcissist, and was determined to slow it down and not let him hurry me. I said to him often “we’re getting to know one another, and we’re building trust, and that’s a good thing”. I knew that he’d grown up with domestic violence, and while he seemed to have been through some personal growth, and he said he cared about me, I wanted to know what that translated into, what substance was there to the man. With time I felt he was inconsistent, and saw nothing of love in his eyes; the whole thing felt increasingly draining and meaningless. I became more guarded, and shared less information about myself, even though initially he’d made me feel safe and wanted.
I was certainly not going to have sex with him when I didn’t feel that he had my best interests at heart, nor could we communicate, as a bare minimum requirement. It was impossible to bring up any differences of opinion with him. He put me down and made scoffing noises, which shut down the conversation. He started to withdraw eye contact and affection, and I found this baffling and cruel. I broke up with him, but he invited me to his house “we’ll sit, we’ll have coffee, we’ll talk”, he said. He also said “I did everything to make you feel safe and trust me” but “you disappear and won’t talk”, and because my oxytocin levels were low, I went. Because I didn’t know about abusive relationships, I went.
I wanted to be kissed and held by him (he was the handsome, somatic, alpha-narc, near-irresistable). After some time at his house, he was trying to get into my pants, and when I said “I’m not here for this” for the umpteenth time, and made a move away from him, he held me down and raped me. I was easily physically overpowered; his physical strength usually turned me on, but that night it became terrifying. I thought he might be about to kill me.
This is a very real concern for us women when we don’t know someone well enough, and they are determined to be deceitful. I suspect he had two other women (maybe more) that he was seeing as well as me.
Evan, thank you so much for your encouragement, kindness, wisdom and advice. After being assaulted, and my emotions feeling like trampled roadkill, I was so pleased to find your blog that validated 1) my feelings of wanting to wait to have a commitment before sex, 2) waiting and observing to see if his actions and words matched, and 3) give myself time to process everything while in the relationship.
Three months ago I was chatted up by a handsome alpha male. I wasn’t ready to date him then, but last weekend I sent him a text to say I was interested in meeting for coffee. He called me, and asked me out this week. I am going to ‘do nothing’, mirror him (to an extent) and respond with calm, playful confidence, stay in the moment, and let him lead. This is just how I like it, and it’s so great to have Evan say “yes! Do that!”. I had years of stupid advice and pressure from my controlling narcissistic mother (who didn’t even know the real me), and I’ve had loads of stupid advice from women’s magazines, (& other clueless women) none of which has ever worked.
Evan, you are a treasure, and we are so fortunate to have you here with us. Thank you again.
Goldie says
Dawn and Zann, I agree! Zann, wow, sorry to hear your story. I already posted here about my first date from hell, but can’t resist repeating. I’d originally contacted the guy on Match with a work-related question, since we were in the same field. I had no intention of meeting in person. But he texted me nonstop for a month and finally I agreed to a date. He lived 45 miles away in the middle of nowhere, so I asked if we’d meet halfway, that was when he dropped the bomb. He said that, a year prior, he’d gone on a massive drinking binge, and gave a valid reason for that (family tragedy). He then told me that he’d gotten a DUI and lost his license, and that I had to come meet with him in his town. First date that we’d set, I had to reschedule, because my car battery died on me that night. Second time, I pinched a nerve in my back four hours before our scheduled date (was the universe telling me to stay away?) Didn’t want to reschedule again, because honestly I wanted it over with. So I drive an hour one way, with back pain. I get to the crappy diner where I was to meet him and he’s not there. He texted me that he was running 20 minutes late. So I stand in front of the diner and wait for him. He calls and turns out he cannot understand my accent on the phone. (I’ve been in the country 15 years and did countrywide phone computer support for six, so, not terribly bad.) At that point, I honestly wanted to get into my car and drive back home, but didn’t want to appear crazy (why did I even care?) so waited the rest of my 20 minutes. He shows up. We get a booth, order food, talk about work, then about dating in general (he was loving it. I, at the time, not so much.) He checks his phone the entire time. Halfway through dinner, he says “I just got a text, my neighbor wants to stop by and say hi, is that okay?” I say yes, five minutes later, a woman in her 20s walks over and introduces herself! She then turns to him and asks, “so what are you doing tonight?” He tells her, “Don’t know yet, I’ll text you when I get out of here.” I’m sitting there shaking my head. She walks off and I ask him “why am I even here?” Again, wanted to leave, but it’s hard to make a dramatic exit when your back hurts so much you can hardly walk. I’ve had many first date, but this was by far the most bizarre. Which is okay, we’ve all had those. But why did I follow this up by two more dates, sex, being dumped, finding out he was banging his ex(?)-girlfriend at the same time (like, on the same days) as he was seeing me, and being depressed for a month??? I have no idea. My guess is, I evaluated this guy by external factors and he measured up okay (decent looks, white-collar professional, good income, upper-middle-class suburban background) and totally ignored the way he treated me and the way he came across as a person. All the while my inner voice was telling me to run and I ignored it. Oh well, at least I learn from my own mistakes.
To the commenters asking why wait two years to get married. Trust me, there are worse things than not being married at 60, 35, or what have you. Being stuck in a bad marriage at 60, 35, etc. is very high on the list. Number one reason for getting stuck in a bad marriage IMO is, you didn’t take the time to get to know the person. Trust me, I’ve been there. We waited four years, but 1.5 of them were college, which really doesn’t count as living together as a couple IMO, and the other 2.5 were a long-distance relationship where we saw each other on holidays and long weekends, several times a year. Not nearly enough. When we finally moved in together, I felt like there was a total stranger living in my apartment — I did not know that man at all, the way he acted and treated me was completely different from the previous four years. I’d recommend to listen to Evan on that one.
Sassy says
I just went on a few dates with someone. When he called to ask me out the second time, he suggested a Friday night. I was was not home to get the message, so I texted the next day that I would call him that night. I did leaving him a message that I was not available that night, but would love to see him a different night. He waited two days to get back to me and then by text. I should have paid attention to how he took my “no”. I would have saved myself interacting with someone who faded out like a self centered baby. Lesson learned! Thanks Evan.
JD says
Do you have ANY IDEA how often women flake on men? Do you have ANY IDEA how obvious a sign it is that the woman is going to dump the man when she isn’t eager to make times work? That she’s just keeping him around to buy her stuff until she finds a guy she likes better?
You said that you promised to “call that night” and then didn’t.
YOU broke this. You’re holding him to a standard that you can’t live up to.
Girl in the Midwest says
Hi, I’ve been reading Evan’s blog for about 6 months now, and I really like it. I’m 28 years old and wish I had found this blog earlier!
Anyways, I agree with everyone and Evan here. Time will tell. But I think having a little shrewd observational skills doesn’t hurt either. I really like to observe people, and I think I’ve gotten better at reading people than when I was younger (though many times I’m wrong because people are complicated and many things are not black and white). This is all from my PERSONAL experience, of course, but they can be quite telling:
1. How they talk about other people in front of me. He might treat me well, but if he talks about others in a way that is intolerant, impatient, derisive (eg he might make fun of someone or something because he thinks I might find it funny too, hoping to impress me), belittling, etc, then I assume that is his true colors and that he’s putting on an act for me. I feel like these things are especially revealing since he’s not directing them at me so they’re unintentional giveaways. I don’t think I’m that special such that a narrow-minded person will actually change for the better because of me.
2. In the earlier stages of dating, if he voluntarily says things like, “My career is really important to me” or “I’m pretty independent” he’s giving himself an easy way out for later. (It doesn’t count if you ask him “is your career important to you?”, because then he’s just answering your question and being honest. It only counts if he chooses to tell you out of the blue). Suppose 6 months into the relationship, you would like to get closer by spending more time together. He can just say “I can’t do that, I told you that I like my independence. You knew what you were getting yourself into.” and he can walk away looking like the good guy and you have no retort.
3. In my experience, honest people with integrity never say that they are honest and have good values. Somehow they just don’t feel the need to state that. People who were seriously interested in me for the long term or for marriage never said to me, “I’m not wasting your time and I’m not a player”. Obviously that doesn’t mean that if he says he’s not a player then he’s a player.
Sorry if this is a repeat of previous commenters, or if it’s really obvious. These things weren’t always obvious to me even just 5 years ago.
Gina says
Great post! I am 50 and have been married twice. The first time I dated my ex for 4 1/2 years before tying the knot. The marriage lasted for two years. There were red flags, but I chose to ignore them because I just wanted to get married and thought that things would change once we were married; it didn’t. Instead things got worse. I was 25 at the time. The second time around I was 31. We dated for three years and the marriage lasted for 12 years. There were no red flags, and we are still friends 7 years later. Neither those marriages produced children. I am not opposed to getting married a third time if I met the right person; however, I am comfortable financially and feel that having a steady boyfriend would be fine also, due to the community property issues in the state of California. There are a lot of wonderful men out there, but there are also quite a few predators. A person can only hide their true character for so long. Time is definitely the best way to determine the type of person you are dating. If the truth doesn’t come out in the laundry, it will most certainly come out during the rinse! I would also advise women to listen to the gut or intuition. Sometimes you get a ‘feeling’ that something just isn’t right. I used to dismiss that feeling thinking that I was being too sensitive and overreacting. I now pay close attention to it and act accordingly.
Selena says
A few years back when Evan first wrote about taking 2-3 years to decide to marry, I thought, eh at least one year, 2-3 seemed a little over cautious. Then I thought about my own partnerships. How there were problems in year one and two, and how they took a down turn in year 3. Marriage had been on the table in each one, but had I gone through with it, I would have been divorcing in year 4. And I would have been divorced 4 times by age 46.
I have empathy for the ladies who truly want to be married. Especially those of you in your 30’s who want biological kids. But consider please, if you do find a man who will marry you in your first year, and you manage to get pregnant immediately, what happens if you find in year two, or three that you really aren’t great partners to each other? You go your separate ways but this now entails having to give up time, holidays with that child you wanted so badly. How will you feel then?
Evan Marc Katz says
Thank you, Selena. That’s all I ever wanted to convey.
Joe says
@ Girl in the Midwest:
But some guys (people in general) don’t need–or even want–to spend all their free time with their SO. They may be just fine in all other respects. That doesn’t make them bad people. It may make them bad for you, if you need a lot of time from your SO.
Rochelle says
I agree with Zann #24 on being flirtatious and manipulative being a warning sign. When I think of “players”, I’m thinking of this breed of inauthentic men who deliberately try to manipulate women into “chasing” them. And they aren’t difficult to weed out by just giving it time. Their red flags usually come out pretty fast. They may be “nice and chivalrous” when they are with you. But they’re inconsistent and play tricks where they are trying to see if they can get a woman to chase after them, or get her to “jump”. Their words are usually much stronger than their actions. They are also typically flirtatious; of course not all guys who love to flirt are players but coupled with the above, it means you have an insincere player on your hands. Sometimes we get too swept by the chemistry to follow our intuition on a man’s character. Chemistry can often be a hindering factor…I’ve had to train myself to not get sucked into that “denial warp” as Zann put it
Karmic Equation says
Players have their uses. Perfect as transitional men. Great for practicing your Sherry Argov “bitchiness” around. And if you do it right, you might even reform him in spite of himself. The caveat is that you can’t hang with a player with hopes for a relationship. That’s when you’ll get hurt. If you can hang with a player without hoping for a relationship, it can be fun.
Evette says
This is a long post. I apologize but I think it’s worth your time. Avoid players like the DBRs that they are. They may have diseases (herpes, hpv, AIDS, etc) and may try to sleep with you and every other women bare. The most (only really effective strategy) that may affect a player and be healthy for the woman is to go no contact once you realize what you’re dealing with. Men need sex and validation. If they’re getting that, why should they change? And you’re honestly not teaching them a thing if you sleep with them and leave. They feel like they’ve scored when you do that. Our power is in our choice of who we give our time and attention and of course body to. So once you realize what you’re dealing with, go no contact immediately and permanently. Some early signs of inappropriate, player behavior and how to handle: if they say, they’re going to call you on Sunday to plan something, on Monday, if they didn’t call- send them a text Monday morning saying that you require all men in your life to keep their word. He didn’t so you know that you two aren’t compatible and you are no longer interested in further communication with him. You have moved on and he Should do the same and immediately block him on all forms of communication. Permanently. Many players are hot and cold in the early days so this quickly nips things in the bud. Don’t accept that his phone died or he left his charger at home. Don’t accept that. Also, if you said that you’re not ready to be intimate and he keeps closing. Leave immediately. When in a safe place, text that you require any man in your life to respect your boundaries and his failure to do so shows that you are not compatible. You’re moving on and he should do the same and block fully. Do this with every guy that doesn’t respect your standards. Never go back. It wont end well. Write down what your dating parameters are so you’re not thrown. Obviously, avoid any guy that encourages you to drink, take nude photos of yourself, dress ssexy, etc. And throw away immediately any guy that tries to sleep with you on the first date. My experience had been that they’re all players. Players are parasites, bottom shelf guys to be avoided at all costs.
Ellen says
I don’t know Karmic, how does spending time with a man who objectifies you like crazy, controls everything (or tries to), treats you shabbily, etc. supposed to be fun?! An insipid reply, sorry.
The only revenge I was able to enact on two players I dated for 3 and 6 months, respectively, was writing really good, really excellent actually, parting emails that skewered their characters and were so spot-on and borderline insulting that I probably had them feeling bad about themselves for weeks afterwards. Touche.
marymary says
I don’t find players to be fun. I remember sitting with my player ex and the thought drifting into my mind, unbidden, “I,m bored”. And I’m not someone who bores easily. When he,s not showing off, drinking, and having sex there isn’t much going on.
i suppose not all players are like that. not that they care what I think!
luckygal says
Yes! This is so true. I recently had a hot and heavy six week relationship with a very extroverted very handsome very alpha guy, yet our conversations were always superficial no matter how hard I tried to be open and share my interesting life…which in comparison to his grand storytelling ways, seemed boring and lame. And all he was interested in was a lot of drinking, a lot of smoking and a lot of sex. He even had this way of talking down to me that made me feel off balance..I can’t explain what exactly it was he would say, but just the tone of voice or something. It was a mind trip for sure.
Sherell says
No one mentions the guys that are not players and truly interested at first and then changed their minds down the road. It happens. I really do not get vested in relationships until much later. The key is to have a full and rewarding life and date multiple guys, even if you like one more. Until you are asked and accept one as exclusive.
Kathleen says
Karmic 39
I can relate to what you said! I got the second Argov book ..the marrying one …which is funny but also awesome You recommended it in another topic question . That combined with Evans great book and info about mirroring has enabled me to put theory into practice.
I had a hot prospect walk and disappear recently after I said I prefer an exclusive relationship ( per Evans video ) I was so empowered and relieved that I played it right without any emotional investment. I can bet that guy will eventually reappear because he didn’t make the conquest he was expecting.
His departure left me free to meet another guy who has asked me this weekend to be his exclusive girlfriend.
The few players I’ve met and made mistakes with have helped me learn how to play my cards right with a quality guy. I know the power in negotiation is your ability to walk away and I now feel that walking away from a player while being unattached to the outcome gives me a sense of empowerment that strengthens my resolve even more. Thats fun
Steve says
Ask any psychologist, among a particular generation of Americans there is effectively an epidemic of narcissism. The result of a generation of bad parenting ideas. Anyone dating in 2012 does indeed need to ask themselves how to avoid hooking up with a narcissist, but s/he also needs to ask her/himself if they are one and what s/he can do about it.
Tom10 says
Ellen
“The only revenge I was able to enact on two players…was writing really excellent parting emails that skewered their characters…and had them feeling bad about themselves”
Unfortunately these types of emails have the adverse affect: they just convince him that he made the right decision in the first place. If you want ‘revenge’ I find the best way to do it is to act magnanimously at all times, wish them well with a smile or a hug, forget about them and just move on. It just leaves that little bit of doubt that they made the wrong decision. As many as one in three come back with their tails between their legs asking for another chance, which always gives great satisfaction.
Liz
“Go on a double date with a friend and her BF or husband and then ask the guy later what he thought of your new date”
Unfortunately this is very transparent and easy to spot. Any sensible man knows that an easy way to earn credit with a woman is to charm her friends, particularly her male friends (they think the same way and can be protective of the woman in question). He knows that he will be talked about later so will make extra effort to win them over.
Ashley
I’m not really sure what a ‘player’ is technically. I tend to drift from casual fling to fling but I’ve no interest in playing games, controlling or treating women shabbily, so I’m not sure if I qualify as one. I’m just in it for fun, not control. I probably am a narcissist but I’m no sadist. Here are a few characteristics that might help you, all of which are obvious after about six weeks. Individually none are definitive but together they might help form a clearer picture:
– I say at the start that I’m not looking for a serious relationship at the moment. Even though this is a giveaway, amazingly many women don’t seem to believe it!
– If I know a woman wants a relationship I’ll stay away, but women never seem to indicate what they want and just hope we know telepathically somehow.
– I have virtually no internet presence, i.e. I have no Facebook, Twitter or Social Networking accounts (with my real identity anyway).
– Delaying sex will cause me to lose interest, although a few months is probably unnecessarily long; I rarely wait more than two dates.
– I always keep my Saturday night free to be with my friends.
– I never introduce women to my family or colleagues, and only very reluctantly to my friends.
– I postpone meeting her friends for as long as possible (from then on they effectively become spies!)
– I am extremely reluctant to meet her family and will try any excuse not to.
– I rarely make direct references to sex initially, maybe just the odd oblique flirtatious hint to suss her out. However, once she signals it’s on I will try to revolve everything around sex.
– I never mention the future or what our situation is, and try keep conversations as light and as whimsical as possible.
– I never meet more than once a week, less if possible.
– I never react to provocation, hints or veiled threats; I just play dumb because I don’t care what the consequences are. It’s not a matter of if I get dumped, but when.
– I can’t be played, cajoled or tricked because again I don’t care what the consequences are.
I hope this helps but I think Evan is right that time is the only sure way to know.
Kai Webster says
Thanks Tom.
Maybe that’s what my approach is missing… the “lowered expectations” aspect. Eg. “It’s not a matter of if I get dumped, but when.”
I suppose this may help me. I invest my energies, and don’t expect the worst. I am, at heart, happy-go-lucky… And it absolutely terrifies women.
Liz says
Tom,
My point was even if the “player” does spot the tactic of having a friends’s guy check him out when they meet, and tries harder to win them over…I just find that guys seem to be more perceptive and sensitive to authenticity/inauthenticity. For example, the guy almost always know when a woman is trying to hard even if she tries hard to cover it up and play it cool.
Im just saying you guys seem to have better sense to judge someone’s character. That’s a generalization so forgive me if it’s not 100%.
Also, going out with other couples and meeting the other men in her life will happen naturally as relationship progresses. So girls just keep your mind open to the opinions of men around you. They may see something you don’t.
Ellen says
Tom #10: I usually do act magnanimously towards most of my dates and only resort to the scolding email or verbal parting when I DON’T want to be contacted again. lol
But, yes, you’re right: If you act like a lady and don’t hit below the belt 2 out of 3 men will want you back. I’ve had guys re-contact me months after “breaking up”. It amuses me. A male co-worker told me men think they can just hit the reset button or something and get a fresh start.
Steve #44: It took me years to figure out my first husband had been a narcissist. You simply can’t win with them, so as a result I really don’t “count” that marriage at all. I.e., there was no way it could have been successful (he cheated on me a number of times). But I agree with you- there does seem to be an epidemic of narcissism right now and borderline personality disorder, particularly amongst females. It ALSO took me a few years to realize my ex mother in law had BPD. She was a classic troublemaker. Unfortunately she skewed my ex’s perception of females as a result (he had no sisters).
Psychology is just plain ole fun sometimes!
Selena says
Nice list Tom. Recognized some of the casual guys from my past line item by line item. Really hope it helps some of the readers here.
Rochelle says
@Liz I believe women and men are equally capable of judging the character of the opposite sex. i.e., ability to pick up on sincere/insincere vibes, insecure vibes, etc. I think guys are just more likely to go with their “gut feeling” on a person. We just tend to be more sensitive to chemistry, and having our emotions get the better of us, so we let it cloud our “gut feeling”. That’s when we go into denial mode, start overanalyzing, and staying hopeful despite the red flags in front of us.
Teddie says
@Karmic #39: I disagree. Why reward these morons with your company? It only encourages their awful behavior and bolsters their egos, which makes it that much harder for the next poor woman who ends up with the guy and has to deal with his crap.
Teddie says
@Tom10 #45: It’s a pretty safe bet that most women are looking for a relationship (we look for love and find sex, remember?) No telepathy involved. If you don’t want to get into the messiness of a relationship, don’t have sex with us. Just like we’re not supposed to expect a relationship with a man we’ve had sex with, men shouldn’t expect us not to attach any significance to the act. Sure, it can hppen, just not as often as you boys would like. So tell us how, exactly, is using women for sex not “treating them shabbily?” How is “playing dumb” not playing games? Congratulations, you’re a player.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Teddie – Your post to Tom10 was very valuable – but not for the reason that you may have thought.
In one paragraph, you illustrated the big blind spot that women have in relation to men and sex.
We’ve established that men look for sex and find love.
We’ve established that women look for love and find sex.
So who’s job is it to say no to pre-commitment sex if she wants to avoid a world of hurt?
You say it’s men who should be altruists and avoid having sex just in case they decide they’re not that into you.
I say that YOU should have the wherewithal to understand how the world works and not sleep with a guy if he’s not your boyfriend.d
One takes responsibility. One places blame.
One you can control. One you can’t control.
Which do you think is a surer strategy to avoid being hurt – hoping that men forgo sex on your behalf? Or forgoing it yourself?
Nadia says
I totally agree that women are responsible for not respecting their own boundaries; however, it does chap my hide just a bit that we are expected to realize this and live more consciously, while men get to have an excuse to not consider the consequences of their actions. How about we all live more consciously? And for the record, I have good guy friends in my life who have made the choice to not have sex with a woman plenty of times, to avoid hooking her emotions unnecessarily, so they do exist. But really, Evan, hold women accountable. No problem. But hold men accountable, too. Once they learn the inner workings of a woman, don’t they have some personal responsibility to use this information? We’re all bigger than our baser instincts, in theory.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Nadia – I agree with you in theory. But what matters is practice. If my job is to give advice to women, my advice to women is not how men can change. Make sense?
Similarly, I spent 4 years not having sex outside commitment to avoid serious heartbreak, but even then, it gets messy. If I’m not sure she’s my future wife, am I not allowed to kiss her? Get to second base? Receive a blow job? Am I not allowed to experience any physical pleasure with a willing and consenting adult? Am I supposed to negotiate this in advance? “So, you know this probably isn’t going anywhere, right? But we’ll both have our pants off and I’ll make you breakfast tomorrow before I do the slow fade?”
My point is that “holding men accountable” is a futile endeavor. I’m one of the good ones – the men of conscience – and even THEN I hooked up with scores of women who I didn’t necessarily see a future with. And if I’M this way, I can only imagine that changing “MEN” is the LEAST effective method of protecting yourself.
Understanding men and making calculated decisions based on what you can handle is always going to be more effective.
Tom10 says
Teddie
“It’s a pretty safe bet that most women are looking for a relationship…no telepathy involved.”
This is what the women on this blog keep getting wrong. Women here are looking for a relationship so they assume that all women are looking for one, however, this is just not true. At least 10 — 15 % of women fade me out / ignore me after sex or a hook-up (I mustn’t be very good eh) without ever have seen me as relationship material.
When I was younger I always assumed that if sex happened then I could pursue a relationship with her if I wanted. However, after I got stung a few times it became apparent that different women want different things. Most women might want relationships but some want casual and some just want a one-off. Other women have sex as part of getting to know a man without really considering a relationship (at first anyway). I have no way of knowing which category a woman falls within.
I always assumed that because I just want sex that all men just want sex, but this is obviously wrong: different men want different things.
Now I make no assumptions, just like you shouldn’t.
Ruby says
@Tom10 #45: “I tend to drift from casual fling to fling but I’ve no interest in playing games, controlling or treating women shabbily, so I’m not sure if I qualify as one. I’m just in it for fun, not control.”
An inability to bond with a partner is a problem with control. It’s an inability to allow yourself to relinquish control over your emotions so that you can bond.
I see no point in bothering with players, unless you are one yourself. If a player has invested a few months into dating someone, he doesn’t want to lose out on even his low-stakes relationship, so he’ll pull out all the stops trying to manipulate a woman into sticking around for for a few more months of noncommittal sex. The greatest satisfaction I’ve had with a couple of the player-men that I’ve encountered is not continuing to buy into their b.s. (once I’m clear about what I’m dealing with), and simply kicking them to the curb.
Writing an angry email just makes you look…angry, and lets them know that they got to you. I believe that players get off on their ability to manipulate, so letting them know you won’t tolerate games, and walking away, is the best strategy.
Kai Webster says
Ruby,
You diagnose his factual actions as if you understand the underlying motive.
That Tom10 lacks “An inability to bond with a partner.” And, “is a problem with control. It’s an inability to allow yourself to relinquish control over your emotions so that you can bond.”
To suggest that he has not already pre-determined these courses of action is just ignorant.
It’s ok to give yourself boundaries if you think they’re going to lead you in the right direction.
If anything, you’ve simply proved why Tom10’s methodology works…
Because women will assume the opposite.
Eg. Tom10 states, “I say at the start that I’m not looking for a serious relationship at the moment. Even though this is a giveaway, amazingly many women don’t seem to believe it!”
Many women will assume you’re lying, instinctively.
Some people just have to SEE to believe…
And that doesn’t mean guys presumabely like Tom10, who predetermine their course of action with women, have “control problems.” Because, in any given moment, he holds the power to decide who he is going to be. He could simply decide to give into the lesser desire… to be some woman’s grovelling bitch.
Fusee says
Thanks, Tom10 @45, for the great check-list! I think it covers pretty well what to watch out for early on, and run away from, when interested in building a serious relationship.
However this will only weed out the first category of players. The ones who like Tom10 are just looking for fun and who will not make any serious effort leading to the start of a relationship. They just collect the fruits on the lowest branches, so to speak. Getting a ladder is too much unnecessary work. They are really easy to avoid as they push for physical intimacy early on, make minimum effort for dates, and keep you completely separated from the important people of their lives.
I think that the Letter Writer, and most women reading this blog, are more concerned about the other categories of players/users, who are the men who would play the perfect date and then boyfriend role in the longer term and would fool us into beliving that we’re on something promising: he desires a commitment, he calls often, he meets you regularly, he progressively introduces you to friends and family, he plans and goes on vacation with you, etc. Some men will do all of that in the longer term, even give support in times of need, and yet still be a player/narcissist (in the worst case scenario as described by previous commenters), or at best someone bringing you – and maintaining you – in a status-quo relationship that best serves their needs. The kind that provides them with just enough benefits (regular company and sex, social approval, and not having to chase after new women any longer), but not too much hassle (no permanent commitment, no serious financial entanglements, and the possibility to escape emotional responsability at any time). Those men are harder to weed out, or to break up with once emotionally entangled with them. After all we are adviced to “look for what they do”, right? And we are adviced to “give it time”, to “see where it goes”, etc.
However, more time = increased emotional entanglement = more rationalizations = waste of time and self-esteem.
Now, I totally agree that the test of time is absolutely necessary. There is no replacement for time. But focusing on time is to my opinion giving half the advice. Many women who like a good rule to follow blindly in order to avoid rocking the boat will just “wait for two years” instead of challenging a possibly too good to be true situation. What you DO with the courtship time is crucial! Sitting back, playing it cool, and simply observing for a while is not enough. Maybe a shoe or two will drop. Maybe not. I strongly believe in intentionally and proactively using the time to create opportunities for each party to show all their colors, and this is the responsability of the most invested party.
A player/user/narcissist might do all kinds of “perfect boyfriend behaviors” and might BS you with woman-speak involving such words as “vulnerability”, “marriage”, “soul-mate”, yadayada. But one area they will avoid like the plague is experiencing actual vulnerability. You know, the kind you feel when something unexpected happens that throws you out of balance, the kind you feel when you engage in real intimate conversations that are uncomfortable and yet that make the relationship truly progress. A player/narcissist will avoid the unexpected, anything that will not follow their script. He will avoid intimate conversations and depth. He will stick to a superficial ideal image that looks like the real deal but that is far from real intimacy.
And by the way, it’s not a gender thing. Plenty of women are player/narcissist as well. Avoidance of intimacy and narcissism are definitely rampant.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Fusee – Two issues with your comment:
1) As I said, a relationship oriented man is a player until he meets the woman who makes him want to stop playing. You seem to think that there’s something wrong with, “men who would play the perfect date and then boyfriend role in the longer term and would fool us into beliveing that we’re on something promising: he desires a commitment, he calls often, he meets you regularly, he progressively introduces you to friends and family, he plans and goes on vacation with you, etc. Some men will do all of that in the longer term, even give support in times of need”.
This is a perfect case of a woman completely misunderstanding men. Here’s why:
He’s supposed to do all of those things. He does them because it’s the right thing to do and because it feels good. He does it because that’s how you treat a girlfriend. You seem to think that he’s an evil narcissist who is intent on “fooling you” into believing that he’s sincere. But that might be 1% of all men.
Generally, the man who calls, commits, and introduces you to his family is taking you VERY SERIOUSLY as a potential life partner.
And if he breaks up with you after a year, that doesn’t mean he’s a narcissist or a player – it means he DIDN’T WANT TO MARRY YOU. That’s all.
The accusation that men are master manipulators who want to “play” the perfect boyfriend and then bail couldn’t be more inaccurate.
This is just called dating.
Put another way, if a woman dates a man and is a great girlfriend, but then decides after a year that he’s not “the one”, is she a liar or a player or a user?
Probably not. She just didn’t want to be with him for life. Which is her right. Whether she’s a narcissist is irrelevant, presuming she wasn’t acting with conscious malevolence.
2) “I strongly believe in intentionally and proactively using the time to create opportunities for each party to show all their colors, and this is the responsability of the most invested party.”
Yeah. That’s a really bad idea. Coming up with tests to see if he passes them. Not only will your tests backfire, but he may catch onto them and decide that he doesn’t want a girlfriend who is so fearful and paranoid that she has to create situations that reveal his character.
Danielle says
[quote] Thanks, Tom10 @45, for the great check-list! I think it covers pretty well what to watch out for early on, and run away from, when interested in building a serious relationship.
However this will only weed out the first category of players. The ones who like Tom10 are just looking for fun and who will not make any serious effort leading to the start of a relationship. They just collect the fruits on the lowest branches, so to speak. Getting a ladder is too much unnecessary work. They are really easy to avoid as they push for physical intimacy early on, make minimum effort for dates, and keep you completely separated from the important people of their lives. I think that the Letter Writer, and most women reading this blog, are more concerned about the other categories of players/users, who are the men who would play the perfect date and then boyfriend role in the longer term and would fool us into beliving that we’re on something promising: he desires a commitment, he calls often, he meets you regularly, he progressively introduces you to friends and family, he plans and goes on vacation with you, etc. Some men will do all of that in the longer term, even give support in times of need, and yet still be a player/narcissist (in the worst case scenario as described by previous commenters), or at best someone bringing you — and maintaining you — in a status-quo relationship that best serves their needs. The kind that provides them with just enough benefits (regular company and sex, social approval, and not having to chase after new women any longer), but not too much hassle (no permanent commitment, no serious financial entanglements, and the possibility to escape emotional responsability at any time). Those men are harder to weed out, or to break up with once emotionally entangled with them. After all we are adviced to “look for what they do”, right? And we are adviced to “give it time”, to “see where it goes”, etc. However, more time = increased emotional entanglement = more rationalizations = waste of time and self-esteem. Now, I totally agree that the test of time is absolutely necessary. There is no replacement for time. But focusing on time is to my opinion giving half the advice. Many women who like a good rule to follow blindly in order to avoid rocking the boat will just “wait for two years” instead of challenging a possibly too good to be true situation. What you DO with the courtship time is crucial! Sitting back, playing it cool, and simply observing for a while is not enough. Maybe a shoe or two will drop. Maybe not. I strongly believe in intentionally and proactively using the time to create opportunities for each party to show all their colors, and this is the responsability of the most invested party. A player/user/narcissist might do all kinds of “perfect boyfriend behaviors” and might BS you with woman-speak involving such words as “vulnerability”, “marriage”, “soul-mate”, yadayada. But one area they will avoid like the plague is experiencing actual vulnerability. You know, the kind you feel when something unexpected happens that throws you out of balance, the kind you feel when you engage in real intimate conversations that are uncomfortable and yet that make the relationship trulyprogress. A player/narcissist will avoid the unexpected, anything that will not follow their script. He will avoid intimate conversations and depth. He will stick to a superficial ideal image that looks like the real deal but that is far from real intimacy. And by the way, it’s not a gender thing. Plenty of women are player/narcissist as well. Avoidance of intimacy and narcissism are definitely rampant. [/quote]
This is one of the most helpful, intelligent, and balanced assessments I have ever found on this subjuct. Thank you FUSEE, you are a woman that knows exactly what shes talking about, and you had no need to apologize for it. The best thing about this blog, is the discussions that it generates.
Fiona says
Nadia at 53, I agree with you entirely. Players I have little time for. All they do is end up hurting women who then end up feeling bad about themselves when the only person that should be feeling bad about themselves is the player. This then results in women avoiding other men to avoid players and then other men get annoyed with women for avoiding them. I also agree that when good men realise the damage this causes they stop doing it. I do not define players as men who have entered into relationships that didn’t work out as that can happen but rather men who have the sole objective of using women for sex. I know Evan says don’t judge but I am afraid I do judge. It it just a poor way to treat other people. I do agree with Evan that women can use strategies to avoid players – they are not foolproof unfortunately but they are indicators.
In Hiding says
Fiona, I submit to you that men aren’t the least bit bothered by the women who avoid them. First of all, if she’s avoiding men, how will they know? She’s not likely to put herself out there. 2nd, men will take the path of least resistance. They’re going to go find the women who will give them what they want.
Fusee says
Hi Evan, thank you for your reply.
I definitely did not want to imply that all men who behave like good boyfriends are players/narcissits! That would be 100% of all good boyfriends, including mine, which does not make sense. I obviously communicated poorly what I wanted to say. What I tried to communicate is that a lot of good men (not the players/narcissists!) will do all of that with no intention of assessing a woman as a potential wife, which is perfectly fine by the way. But it’s easy for us women to equate “perfect boyfriend behavior” with progression towards marriage. Like you say, it does not mean it will end up in marriage. It should not anyway. Most relationships do not have what it takes for marriage and dating is about finding that out.
And regarding your second comment: I do not believe that creating opportunities to get to know one another better equate “testing” or “playing games”. For me it’s simply getting to know one another by engaging in a variety of activities and conversations that allow people to experience the unexpected and reveal a bit more of themselves, their dreams, etc. Different men will have different sensitivities about being suggested dates and being asked questions, and that’s okay. A lid to every pot!
My apologies for miscommunicating my opinion, and for coming across as disagreeing with your spot-on advice. I do agree with you, but I personally like to be a bit more proactive during courtship, that’s all. On that we cancertainly disagree.
Tom10 says
Ruby
“an inability to bond with a partner is a problem with control”
Who said I have an inability to bond with a partner? I never said that; I choose not to because I don’t want to and I’m not ready yet.
Fusee
“They push for physical intimacy early on”
I can’t speak for others, but I certainly don’t do this. You’d be surprised at how quickly women push for intimacy without any prompting.
Ruby, Fiona, Fuse
It gets a bit irritating to be constantly called a user or a manipulator as I’ve never manipulated anyone in my life. As I said I’ve no interest in manipulating or playing anybody. You are thinking like juveniles; ADULTS cannot be manipulated because they assume responsibility for their own actions and emotions.
You don’t tell lies; I don’t tell lies.
You want men for security / status / to maintain your lifestyle while you have babies; I want fun and sex.
Do you tell men you want a long-term relationship at the very start? Because I DO tell women I’m not looking for a serious relationship.
There is no difference between us; I’m not using women any more than you use men.
You are no better or moral than me so you can all come down off your horses and stop judging. It is not exactly a classified state secret that men like nsa sex / casual relationships so why do women do it if the consequences upset them?
starthrower68 says
Many women do it for 2 reasons: they think they can handle it when they really can’t or they think it will get a committed relationship. A woman has to get to the same place you mentioned, where you don’t care what the consequences are, whether she has sex and doesn’t care if she never heard from him again, or whether she doesn’t, and doesn’t care if she never hears from him again.
Karmic Equation says
@Ellen 40
“…how does spending time with a man who objectifies you like crazy, controls everything (or tries to), treats you shabbily, etc. supposed to be fun?!”
I believe in the power of being a woman. Any woman who can inspire a man to objectify her is doing something right. I see it as a compliment that I’ve done the right things to make myself visually attractive, and not as an insult. But a woman’s true power lies her ability to lead a man to PERCEIVE AND TREAT HER as SPECIAL. If men you date/have sex with don’t end up treating you as special, then YOU are not doing something right. That something could be
-your chasing him and scaring him
-your choosing the wrong kind of man, who’s wrong for your temperament/needs/lifestyle/what-have-you
-your hoping that sex will bind him to you the way it binds you to him
-your ticking biological clock that impels you to put undue pressure on a relationship
-your personality or attitude could stand improvement (maybe your distrust or latent hostility towards men are leaking through into your relationships in spite of yourself)
-you don’t have strong self-esteem; or the opposite, you have an overdeveloped sense of self (maybe you’re a narcissist yourself and won’t acknowledge it)
-your making certain interactions in the relationship about winning and losing (“if I give him what makes him happy, (like stroking his ego), then I lose”; “if he gives me what makes me happy, then I win”)
“Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”
Men like to be in control, so depending on what it is he wants to control, there’s no reason why you should fight it. Let him be the man and in control, unless it’s unfair, unreasonable, or unsafe.
Don’t stay with any man, player or not, if he treats you in a way that you consider shabby. But make sure that he’s actually DELIBERATELY doing so. If you tell him to stop and he doesn’t then he’s deliberately treating you shabbily. But you do have to bring it to his attention. Give him the opportunity to correct his actions. He could have been simply clueless, not deliberately jerkish.
So where’s the fun? The fun is in being able to exercise your power as a woman and seeing if you can make the player the come to heel (think of you as special, treat you as special, followed by the need to be with only you because you are so special, etc). I wasn’t looking to make my player commit to me, but I certainly wanted to make sure I was a woman he couldn’t forget. So, unbeknownst to him, I changed HIS game (make me chase him, which I never did, and I still don’t) to MY game (go ahead buster, try to get me out of your head.)
To that end, I was being me, treating the player like I treated any other HUMAN BEING with humor, compassion, understanding, and friendship; but of course with the bonus of frequent light-hearted sex, without strings for either of us. He came to heel, became exclusive with me, and recently proposed. Now my job as a woman is take the next year or so to see if he’s worthy of being my husband. My gut says no…So most of you would say then why don’t you break up with him? I’m not looking to remarry so I’m not wasting MY time. If he feels he’s wasting his, then HE can break up with me. I’m happy with the status quo.
@Teddie 50
“Why reward these morons with your company? It only encourages their awful behavior and bolsters their egos, which makes it that much harder for the next poor woman who ends up with the guy and has to deal with his crap.”
Because I don’t see players as morons. The heartless players, I’ve actually never had relationships or sex with. Most likely because my guy-dar works well and I automatically dismiss them into “ignore” zone. If you’ve had bad experiences with players, then YOU are doing something wrong…Very likely, you let your sense of attraction blind you to his unworthiness to have sex with you.
If you go into each date with this simple mantra, you might have better luck…”I know he wants to have sex with me, it goes without saying…but is he WORTHY to have sex with me?” Then you spend your dates trying to get to that answer. “Worthy” should encompass all QUALITIES (not qualifications) that are important to you and to a RELATIONSHIP, like kindess, thoughtfulness, honesty, integrity, etc., not degrees or income or even if he’s marriage-minded — because for the right woman, a man will become marriage-minded.
If you deem him unworthy, it’s easy to move on. And if you wait until you are sure he’s worthy of having sex with you, odds are, he’s not going to leave you and hurt provided you properly and accurately qualified his worthiness with your HEAD and not your HEART.
@Kathleen 43
Yes, you get what I mean about “woman-power”. If you know how to wield it, it is extraordinarily empowering. Good luck to you.
@Tom10 45
Love your list. My bf was most of your list when we first met. Now he is the opposite. Personal question…no need to answer if you’re not comfortable. Do you keep a harem or are you a serial dater like Evan was?
Fiona says
Tom, I would consider using people for sex when you have nothing at all to offer is juvenile. I have never used a man in my life unless you consider loving them and trying to be a good girlfriend as being a user. You can’t compare your behaviour with mine in the least. I have something good to offer someone that is not based on using and hurting.
Fusee says
Hi Tom #61: For the record, I never called you a user or a manipulator! If anything I find your honesty refreshing and your comments really interesting. However I think most women would call you a “player” because of your short-term, fun-oriented focus, but that word is kind of ambiguous because it has a negative connotation that would not necessarily apply to someone who would state his (lack of) intentions early on. Maybe you’re not a player but a casual dater? : )
I agree that it’s enough information to simply mention that you’re not looking for anything serious, and it’s perfectly reasonnable to not want a relationship. I agree that plenty of young (and less young) women are perfectly content with casual sexuals encounters. Several mid-twenties ladies of my volunteer group regularly mention drunken middle-of-the-night casual sex encounters at a friend’s house. Priorities might change with time, but that’s another story. For now, they are obviously very happy with their current lifestyle, and I’m happy for them. They make men like you really happy too!
@Karmic Equation #62: I really appreciate your female empowerment messages! However feeling empowered as a woman can be acomplished in various ways. It can be through sex, but not necessarily. I think it’s about knowing what we truly need and taking responsability for oneself by always respecting others.
Angie says
Evan,
The one thing I have noticed that I don’t think has been commented on is that the idea of dating leading to marriage/future/family is not just something that comes from women. I think men feel pressured if their girlfriend is in her late 20s and up, whether or not she has said anything. His family is saying stuff, his friends are getting engaged… There is a societal pressure that is going to be on the man whether or not the woman says anything, and in my personal experience, innocuous little comments or questions suddenly become overblown.
Granted, I think these men are maybe lying to themselves. “Do you see yourself getting married?” – “Of course” – “So you know what you want in a marriage?” – No one replies “Ohhh, no, no, I just know someday I want to get married someday wayyyy in the future”.
I think the issue is not so much understanding whether or not a man actually likes me or cares about me, but for him to understand himself enough to be truthful and upfront. Without “blaming” the man, how does one navigate this aspect?
Karmic Equation says
@Fusee 64
I really appreciate your female empowerment messages! However feeling empowered as a woman can be acomplished in various ways. It can be through sex, but not necessarily. I think it’s about knowing what we truly need and taking responsability for oneself by always respecting others.
Thanks. I agree that female empowerment can be accomplished in various ways.
However, the hostility on this site from women towards players is based on sex. Many women here believe men are evil for wanting sex without strings. And are mad at men for being able to get it, from them, specifically.
I’m saying the anger is misplaced because women won’t acknowledge or accept that the power to have sex is actually a WOMAN’s power, not a man’s. Man can “want” sex all they day long, and unless they are psychopaths, are not going to have any sex if the woman doesn’t let him have it. Women are the gatekeepers to sex. Therefore, as gatekeepers, we are responsible for whom we let in and why we let them in. It is not the fault of the “traveler” to want in. It is their prerogative to want in. Just as it is the gatekeeper’s prerogative to shut them out if they find them unworthy.
If an unworthy “traveler” is let in by the gatekeeper herself, whose fault is it that the traveler got in? Why be angry at the traveler? The anger should be directed at the gatekeeper. And a corrective action plan put in place. The solution is to retrain the gatekeeper to properly complete her due diligence on travelers, not deny access to all travelers or castigate all travelers as alike nor to be mad at all travelers.
“With great power comes great responsibility.”
Women have the power, but they are abdicating their responsibility and instead blaming men, which I feel is self-deceiving and illogical of otherwise smart, successful women.
Ruby says
Tom10 #61
Really only the first paragraph of my comments in #56 were directed at you. It doesn’t sound like you’re being manipulative. You’re young and not ready to settle down, I get that.
Actually, the worst problems I’ve had have been with older player-types. These guys are set in their ways, and know how to play the game. Or think they do. And yes, they know very well how to manipulate in order to get what they want. It really has nothing to do with how special they think a woman is. You can “exercise your power as a woman.” and they will still try to take advantage of you. Trying to get these guys to tow a line involves a lot of energy, and not much pay-off. Since I’m looking for a serious relationship, why bother?
marymary says
I myself would get no satisfaction from reforming a player or being the right woman to make him marriage minded. I preferred someone who was already relationship ready and didnt require any kind of training, for want of a better term. I don,t do casual sex and I,m allergic to being charmed. maybe we won,t be played if we don,t play?
and while it may take two years to decide on life long compatibility you would have to be very unlucky indeed or deliberately lying to yourself or very inexperienced or susceptible or dreaming not to know that you were dealing with a narcissist, in the true sense of the word, or a diehard player within a few months, tops. Mind you, a lot of women fall into that category. I did (note past tense)
Tom10 says
Fiona
We’ll just have to agree to disagree so. My conscience is clear because I take the utmost care with women and go to great lengths not to give them any wrong ideas or hurt them. In fact I consider my behaviour as significantly better than people who slide into lazy relationships without discussing their actual goals, thus wasting years of their partner’s lives: the people that Fusee warn of.
Fusee and Ruby
Sorry I was a bit cranky after a long day in work. I rolled all the comments into one as a swipe at me, which was lazy. Yes casual dater is probably more apt.
Karmic Equation
“Do you keep a harem or are you a serial dater like Evan was?
I generally work intensely hard and do a lot of sport and music so I don’t really have the time or energy to maintain a harem; I tend to remain alone or maintain one casual, and use the weekends for one-offs. But at slack times of the year if I find I’ve got some spare time and energy I might put in a bit more effort and keep a few going for a while.
I really enjoy your comments because they give me great hope that I will be able to change in a few years. I will probably want children so it’s good to know that men like me can reform when they meet the right person and are ready.
I’m a little bit skeptical your boyfriend changed his game and ‘came to heel’ unknowingly. I’d say he knew what he was doing but let himself go with the flow because of how relaxed you are, and because you understand men so well maybe?
Angie
Yes this societal / peer pressure does start to increase gradually for men too. I take particular delight in being anti-establishment, therefore I joyously celebrate being single.
Fiona says
I personally think once a womanizer always a womanizer. That type of man never really changes and it is to just avoid them.
(Incorrect. Once a cheater always a cheater. That’s true. But a guy who likes to hook up with lots of women? He’s just known as a guy. – EMK)
Karmic Equation says
@Ruby and @marymary
To each her own. As I said, players have their uses as transitional men. After a distressing end to a loving relationship, I needed to be distracted without having to be emotionally vested. My player was just what the doctor ordered.
I wasn’t aiming to reform him, I just wanted to practice my woman-power on him. It was definitely a journey of self-discovery. Now that I’ve traveled it, would I travel it again for another player? No. But I do feel the lessons learned in this journey were valuable and will do me well in future relationships, so my time was not wasted.
The fact that he’s a reformed player bothers me less than the 13 yr age gap between us (I’m older). He could stay reformed to my happy surprise, but I will never be younger.
Loving someone is never a waste of time as long as you learn something from the relationship.
Fiona says
Karmic I think you will find that women who have the misfortune to get involved with men who are in effect totally worthless to them spend more time blaming themselves than the womanizer. Back when I was younger, more naive and looking for love and the good in all men, I got sucked in by a few of them, on each occasion being left feeling that I was worth nothing and had nothing to offer and usually staying away from other men for years at a time because I was so unworthy of love. Now I realise that I wasn’t the unworthy one.
Some other Steve says
Player-ness is defined not by behavior, but by lack of disclosure, so one like our friend Tom — who is clear on what his intentions are — is more of a playboy than a player.
And I gotta say that Evan’s webmaster picks the best stock photography!
Fiona says
Sorry Evan but I don’t agree. Some men do have integrity and don’t mess around with lots of women. I don’t want a man like that even now! Why should I love someone that has gone through his life being selfish and hurting scores of women? No thank you. I can accept a man who has had relationships that haven’t worked, not someone that has used women for sex. That guy doesn’t deserve love from me.
Evan Marc Katz says
Fiona, you have the uncanny ability to make my points for me. You not only rule out men by occupation, education and income, but you rule out any man who had considerable sexual experience before he met you. Soon, there’ll be no one left!
Jenna says
After reading more of these comments about men who go out with someone long term with no intention of true commitment, I thought of a male friend of mine who fits that bill precisely. He’s 29 and has for six months dated a girl who he’s quite ambivalent about, but does like her, and doesn’t have many friends in the new city he recently moved to and just kind of fell into it as, I think in part, a way to avoid the hard work of building a social life. This girl is clearly head over heels for him, even though I know from his comments to me that he’s probably not ready for marriage and doesn’t necessarily think she’s the one. I’ve given him a lot of shit about it, telling him not to waste this 28 year old girl’s time. But guess what? She initiated a lot of contact in the beginning and was okay with him splitting the bill with her (even on the first date!) and arranging dates via text. She always comes to him because he lives in the city and she lives in the burbs. She did delay sex til exclusivity, which took two months.
But in my opinion, she could have averted the likely impending disappointment by allowing him to pursue her and show real interest from the outset. He wouldn’t have, because he’s one of those lazy guys that doesn’t do such things, but then she would have freed herself up to find someone better.
And who’s a player, really? You have to know the context. A guy who from afar I thought of as a rampant womanizer recently expressed sincere interest in me as we shared a platonic weekend together, and after I expressed concerns about his serial dating, he shared with me that a lot of that was just because he got dumped and rejected a lot so what was he gonna do when he kept not being able to find a ltr, give up sex? I realized I am the same way … people who don’t know me very well think I’m a rampant serial dater, and it would appear that way, but the truth is I never find anyone in my own age and looks range who shares my values and wants a relationship with me and have gotten rejected a ton, so I have fun with the card I’ve been dealt and just keep trying.
Fiona says
Evan I am ruling out the Toms of this world with very good reason. Any man who goes out there with the intention of having sex with as many women as possible and dismisses hundreds of perfectly good women who were looking for love as far as I am concerned gets what he deserves if, when he finally can be bothered to give someone the time of day, they tell him to take a hike. I’ve been hurt by men like that in the past. It isn’t for me to make them feel good about themselves now. I don’t see what benefit all their one night stands would bring to me. I would rather deal with a good man that has always been commitment minded and not treated women like worthless objects e.g divorced or widowed, than a womanizer. In my experience really good men look for both sex and love, not just sex.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Fiona – You’re stuck in a black and white world where men who aren’t perpetually in a long term relationship are “bad” or treat women like they’re “worthless”. It’s not true.
Every single man I know has had one night stands and short-term hookups in between relationships. In fact, so have most women I know. So either everyone I know is “bad” and treats the opposite sex like it’s “worthless”, or you’re assigning a little too much negative spin to those who participate in the hookup culture.
Anytime a reader takes your stance, I know my argument is a valid one. I’m a good man, husband, father, brother, son and dating coach. And yet I have a lot of experience outside long-term relationships. You may choose to dismiss men like me, but once again, you’re unnecessarily narrowing your dating pool for some sort of foolish highground.
You know who will be fine? The men who hook up before they get married. You know who will also be fine? The women who choose to marry them.
You know who’s most likely to be left standing alone? The person who judges everyone as morally inferior.
Fiona says
The people of this world who have the sole ambition of sleeping with as many women as possible are making many women feel worthless Evan whether you want to acknowledge it or not. I spent years feeling like I was unlovable due to meeting men like that so have a lot of other women. It took me a long time to realise that there was nothing wrong with me – I wasn’t unlovable. I was just meeting men who didn’t care abour anyone but themselves. I don’t see that the onus is now on me to treat such men well just because all of a sudden they decide it is time to settle down. If I end up alone while the likes of Tom end up happily married I will just accept it is rough justice as I was ready to love, commit and settle down 17 years ago without the whole sleeping with hundreds of people for the hell of it thing. That’s life.
Evan Marc Katz says
You’re not making rational arguments.
1. A man can’t make you feel any way, my dear. If you feel worthless, you feel worthless. A man who isn’t interested in you is simply not interested in you – it’s not a comment on your self-worth. It stings for a second, then it’s over.
2. Men who hook up aren’t evil. You still haven’t acknowledged this basic fact. Many women like hooking up. About 60% are hoping it turns into a relationship. But then, that’s only a few digits higher than the men who want a hookup to turn into a relationship. The knife cuts both ways. You just see yourself as a victim. And if you’re a victim, that means men are the criminals.
3. “The onus isn’t on you to treat men well?” Really? Because if I go out with you, follow up the next day, and the next, and the next, for the rest of my life, I sort of expect you to treat me well. Yes, even if I hooked up a bunch in my 20’s.
If you would spite yourself and break up with me to teach me a lesson, you are about the most emotionally immature woman I could imagine. Getting rid of an amazing boyfriend because he enjoyed sex. Talk about short sighted.
Do some research, Fiona. You’ll discover that most men would like to have had more partners and experience, but even the ones who get it only sleep with, on average, 3 women a year. A few guys skew things higher, but most men simply don’t do as well as they’d want to. Your vigilance about men’s sexual past, regardless of how they treat you is something that should end tonight.
You’re killing yourself with this Puritanical streak.
Does any woman here have an answer to Fiona, who feels that when a woman sleeps with a man outside a relationship, the man is making her feel “worthless”?
Karmic? Or are you tired of this dialogue as well?
Evette says
Hi,
Sorry Evan, I’ll have to disagree. I’ve had many guys pursue me purely to use me for sex and agressively lie and pursue me to meet their needs. Everyone wants sex but some of these guys are straight up hunters (of women). I’m no one’s victim but I hate it. I’ve said no to many of these guys but a few got in and it’s painful in the aftermath. I’ve always tried to learn and be wiser and I don’t have sex right away, usually a few months in and a title had been given and taken away in a weekend.. I’m trying so hard to be careful since everything is a woman’s fault/ responsibility that I’m paranoid. I assume any man in my face for any reason wants sex and it’s mind boggling when guys are offended when I assume and treat them accordingly when that’s exactly why they’re in my face. I would have a hard time marrying a man that hurt other women the way I’ve been hurt almost like finding out your future husband raped someone in college. I wouldn’t be considerate or understanding. I would drop him quick.
marymary says
My boyfriend doesn’t have the questionable past. I do. If he judged me in the same way that some of us are judging men, he wouldn,t be with me.
men and women can change. What I question is that a certain person makes them change. I think they change and then the right person happens to comes along. Funny that. I am even so generously minded that I think a cheater can change. Not as many as some seem to want to believe though.
of all the women Evan dated I don,t think it was only his wife who was suitable. Yes, She is special. would he have seen it if he had met her x years earlier?
fiona
i get that you have high standards because you want to avoid being hurt. No one can guarantee that. It,s better to hone your powers to be able to make the judgement call that a man is good enough without having to meet a huge list of criteria. no one is perfect and no relationship is. That,s why we keep saying compromise. Everyone compromises. Over a forty year marriage there are a LOT of compromises.
I don,t give players a free pass. I think often they know the women are hurting but continue to get their kicks. I don,t preach to them. It,s all working fine for them. Disengage and don,t waste your breath.
Tom10 says
“My boyfriend doesn’t have the questionable past. I do. If he judged me in the same way that some of us are judging men, he wouldn,t be with me.”
“I don’t give players a free pass”
So let me get this straight. You spent your youth sleeping around (I’m inferring that’s what you mean by “questionable past” — correct me if I’m wrong), and now that you’re in a relationship you feel it’s your place to hand out morality passes to others who do the exact same thing?
Do you know who I don’t give free passes to marymary? Pot. Kettle. Black.
Fiona says
All I ever wated was to meet, fall in love with, sleep with and marry one single man and have a loving family. That was it. Being pursued constantly for sex made me feel unlovable and like an object. I had the misfortune to be pretty which meant frantically pursued by players every time I went out in my twenties. It did not make me feel good to be chased by predators every night I went out. If I wanted to I could have slept with hundreds of men but I didn’t and I didn’t want to put myself about. What I wasn’t meeting was a lot of nice men looking for commitment. Even at my age when I am well past it I still get players chasing me and I am far too old for it. It is exhausting. If some women like casual sex, fine. I don’t like casual sex, I don’t like being treated like an object and I genuinely don’t know any women in my life that do – I always wonder who these women actually are. The women I know that hook up get hurt.
I wouldn’t go out with a player to try to hurt him or teach him a lesson. I’m just sick and tired of players anc prefer to avoid them.
Evette says
Thank you Fiona. I feel the same way. Thank you for giving a voice to a feeling that I was afraid to voice as it was my truth but I didn’t want to be braggadocious or dismissed as crazy and bitter but I’m tired of having my guard up when out because we don’t hold men’s behavior to a high standard so I’m constantly on guard as I don’t feel safe and if anything goes wrong, it’s the women’s fault. It’s tiring. I realize that I’ve been holding a higher impression of men then they even want for themselves and I need to stop taking men at their word as so many lie. I hate to be bitter (hurt really). I just wish I had different experiences.
Rampiance says
Well, Evan, I’ve been sleeping with men outside a relationship for 9 years, and I started doing that because I’d had such painful results with conventional relationships (exclusivity). I felt like a total noob at dating, and I wanted to change that fast. I used about half of Tom’s checklist as my own: maybe I’d be called a playgirl?
I met and made love with some really awesome men and felt beloved and cherished, even though we were not exclusive and I was not aiming for marriage. I felt quite the opposite of the conventional mindset at the time: that having no pre-conditions allowed our loving to be completely its own thing, to be only our expressions to each other of the beauty of the moment. Many of the men felt the same way, and many continue to be friends long after we parted our sexual ways.
I noticed that my self-love started to level up as I saw myself reflected in the eyes of men who enjoyed me and whom I enjoyed. As I felt better about myself, I attracted men of higher and higher qualities, and now feel very much at peace with myself and with the world of men. Men like Tom, who treat women with respect and decency, are a boon to many women of the world who want to experience lovely moments of tenderness and charm with a man who knows his way about her body.
It seems to me that Fiona carries a chip on her shoulder after feeling deeply hurt. However, her comments seem to indicate that she feels her mindset is keeping her on the right track now. It’s a step further than she was before, Evan, when she submitted her will to someone else’s (reading between the lines). Growth happens one step at a time, and she has already made some progress, so maybe that’s her quota for this lifetime. We won’t all of us make as many strides as the most stride-lious of us do. 😉
Selena says
If you think about it all relationships start out casual. You don’t know each well -if at all – on a first date. And there is no way to predict how you will feel about each after one date, or one month, or one year.
A situation I believe many of us have found ourselves in is not recognizing, or acknowledging when a dating relationship has failed to progress beyond the casual level. The guy were are dating, that we really like, may be doing some boyfriend-y things, but we are insecure and have doubts, we analyze his words and actions constantly. And when he ends it we may label him a player, or some other pejoritive term because we are hurt and angry he ended it. Serves as a bit of an ego balm rather than admitting the guy dated us long enough to decide we weren’t the woman for him. Or that the ‘relationship’ never progressed beyond casual even though we wanted it to.
I pulled this list off a video EMK did 3 years ago.
8 Things Your Boyfriend Must Do To Be Your Boyfriend
1. He calls you to say “When can I see you again?”
2. He reserves plans with you every Friday and Saturday night.
3. He calls, or texts, or emails you every day.
4. He calls himself your boyfriend.
5. He wants to make it clear you are not seeing anyone else.
6. He sleeps with you regularly.
7. He talks about a future.
8. He tells you he loves you.
“If he’s not doing these things he’s not that into you.”
Contrast this list with the one casual dater Tom10 provided in #45.
The difference is very obvious isn’t it?
If you are a person who has difficulty distinguishing when someone is genuinely interested opposed to casually interested, if you get emotionally invested quickly and easily and are often disappointed because the other person doesn’t…these two lists might be worth printing out to refer to as needed.
Lucy says
@Fiona – I know what you mean. I think there are plenty of shady characters out there which doesn’t correlate with how often they sleep around but it can be a warning sign depending on the context. I think the hook-up culture is greatly exaggerated and that people talk about sex more than they actually do it. I wouldn’t judge someone on their past but if recent patterns seemed to suggest heaps of bed hopping with no commitment (’cause you don’t need sex every day of the week), then I’d be warned off. Again, I don’t think this about sex. You can discern a person’s behaviour without looking at that part of the equation but it will become part of your considerations according to how/why they do it.
Tom10 says
Fiona
We’re actually not that different; we both want to live as interesting, varied and complete a life as possible. To achieve this we both set out our notional life-paths at the age of 18. Mine goes like this: degree by 20, then masters, then travel the world, then complete professional exams, buy a house before 30, start my own business by 35, retire at 65 and enjoy my old age. I’m on track so far. You (and most of the women on this blog), probably have a similar plan. In parallel to my career plan I have a personal plan; have lots of sex with lots of women until I’m 35, then maybe find a suitable woman and have two children at about 40. You just want to cut out the ‘lots of sex bit’. I bear you no ill-will for your dreams and ambitions so it’s unfortunate that you judge mine.
I don’t like taking shots at anyone, particularly women, and as I said before I think you’re a nice woman. But I reckon I have a better chance of completing my life goals than you, because I never judge anyone, and I know which criteria are important and which aren’t for specific goals. I don’t judge women for their sexual past, for their education, for their income or any other (what I consider) irrelevant criteria. I don’t care if a woman has slept with 1, 10, or 100 men because it’s none of my business.
“The misfortune to get involved with men who are in effect totally worthless to them”
This is a good point; guess what type of woman is normally into me? Intelligent, professional, driven women who want me for the wrong reasons. They want me because I’m also a professional, 6’3”, have my own house yada yada. They don’t ask if I even want a relationship because they’re thinking of their own agenda, their own life plan and are so convinced that they’re such a great catch that how could I possibly not want to keep them?! But I’m worthless to them if I don’t want what they want.
I only want casual now so I choose the hottest and most sexual women I possibly can. In a few years when I want more I’ll adjust my criteria to that which Evan, Fusee and all the other wise contributors here speak of. Looks won’t be as important, but character and fortitude will.
“he gets what he deserves if, when he finally can be bothered to give someone the time of they tell him to take a hike”
No problem, I’m not into judgemental people anyway. I’ve been dumped and rejected countless times so I don’t take it personally and it has no affect on my self-esteem. My self-esteem is based on my behaviour not on someone else’s. As you say if it happens; ‘that’s life’.
Kai Webster says
Oh, ok. This makes sense now.
I have trouble because I both lack superior genetics; and don’t have your demeanor, which is likely attributable to your experiences as a superior male specimen.
Great world we live in.
Lower expectations, Highten genetics; otherwise I’m SOL.
Fiona says
Tom at the end of the day you may well get what you want. You don’t care about collateral damage on the way. That is your prorogative. Just be aware that girls like me that don’t believe in treating other people shabbily don’t want the older you. I don’t think people who think it is ok to treat people they don’t love shabbily have sufficient character for me and I don’t want such a person in my life. If you can find a woman that doesn’t care that is how you see fit to treat people you don’t love then I would say you are a lucky man who is fortunate not to reap the pain you happily dish out to others for years. I for one get a glimpse into the shabby treatment I will get if such a type decides he does love me any more too. No thanks.
As for Evan’s argument that women’s self esteem should not be affected by shabby treatement, nice sentiment but that argument can be used to excuse all manner of shoddy behaviour but is unrealistic as we are all feeling creatures at the end of the day. I remember years ago freaking out when I found that the woman at the post office had sent my masters dissertation to the wrong country and I therefore missed the deadline for submission. She was actually crying. I still feel terrible about it now. Did I ‘make’ her feel bad? Well in theory land no-one can make anyone else feel anything. In reality if you treat people shabbily they would be inhuman to be immune to feeling upset at all so sorry Evan but I don’t see that argument as a justification for shady players.
Rampiance, I have no desire to go in for what you want – I do not consider sleeping around to be growth in any shape or form. If it work for to be sharing your body with a host of random men, fine. I believe you are in a minority.
Ruby says
Again, there’s a difference, in my mind, between a young man, like Tom10, who isn’t ready to settle down yet, and the older “players” I’ve encountered, who are pretty hardened at their game. We expect young men to want to sow their wild oats, but I’m guessing that the exhaustion that Fiona feels its due to the men her age and older who are still engaging in their bad behavior. The older they get, the worse they get. These are the true committment-phobes who really do know how to manipulate in order to get what they want. I’m talking about the over-40 men who are happy to be your “boyfriend” for a few months of NSA sex.
Women tend to be at a disadvantage here, because we do bond more easily, and many of us can’t adopt the casual attitudes of Tom10 or Rampiance. One of my favorite EMK quotes is, “Believe the negatives, ignore the positives.” As much as I do believe that everyone should behave with integrity, it’s an unfortunate reality that we can’t expect that. It is up to women to evaluate the guy.
On that note, I’d like to add another point to EMK’s list, posted by Selena (#84): 9. He introduces you to his friends.
Dawn says
I am saddened so much by the blame game that has gone on in this post.
Players come on both sides.
You cannot blame an entire sex for the bad behavior of a few.
Again, I go back to MY original statement which I’m sure has been lost in the sea of finger pointing here.
Most often we ignore the signs in order to be in a relationship. There are RARE occasions where there was not one sign, but most often we choose to ignore things that are right in our face.
I’m now going to unsubscribe to these comments. It’s lost it’s productive feed and turned into a bashing
Soul says
#Fiona, and Tom:
Your exchange of opinion is very interesting, because both of you speak from the heart and both of you are sincere…
Fiona,
To soothe your soul (maybe), keep in mind that if you believe that you deserve it, the right man WILL come along. Just keep on trying to be the right woman. And if you keep the introspective work that you are doing, you will be able to recognize him….
Of course, you might (and certainly will) be hurt, because it is part of life… but it also helps you to grow as a human being…Just be assured that even if you get hurt, you will find the strength within you (or with the help of God if you believe in god) to survive and go on…
Even Mr. Right wil hurt you, you know…. And you him. As a psychanalyst said, when you meet Mr. Right, the question you need to ask yourself is: “is this the person I want to hurt me (at times) for the rest of my life?”….
On the other hand, and just to tease Tom10 a little bit, keep in mind that most people don’t really know what they want, or need (it is true for most people, including me). What they say they want is not what they really want, deep inside. Tom10 might think he is happy with his plan… as a woman however, I know he NEEDS a good woman and would be much happier if he was sharing a real connection with someone right now. We, woman, just know this for a fact and we are right ahahahahha
Jennifer says
Fiona, where do you see Tom treating women shabbily? He doesn’t lie about wanting exclusivity. He doesn’t try to trick women by doing ‘boyfriendy’ things- no Saturday night dates, no meeting friends or family. Tom seems to be pretty straightforward to me- where is the manipulation? I understand you not liking men that treat women carelessly, i dont either, but where in Tom’s posts does he describe doing that?
And while Rampaince’s view is different than yours and your friends, why does that make it a minority view?
Some other Steve says
@Fiona – how is a man who is up front about his desire for a casual relationship treating anybody “shabbily”? If the potential partner is in the same place, then the two can share some time together. If they’re not, then not. There are plenty of women who are fine with a casual relationship.
I certainly understand why you’d not be interested in such a relationship, but why is this any different than (say) you being a jock and him being a bookworm, and you deciding that it’s just not a good fit without making a moral judgement about it?
Selena says
I don’t see Tom treating women shabbily either. He doesn’t want a commitment at this particular point in his life. That doesn’t make him a bad person. He’s not promising the women he dates anything. He’s not telling them he loves them just to get/keep sex. He doesn’t pretend there is more there than there actually is.
And he’s right Fiona – not every woman wants commitment every time she goes out on a date. Some do enjoy dating casually. Some see sex as part of getting to know someone – not something that automatically means commitment. A lot of us are just happy to do what we feel comfortable doing and see what unfolds.
Selena says
Ruby, some people have no problem introducing a person they are dating casually to friends, even family should the occasion arise. It’s just not a big deal to them.
If I were dating someone who DIDN’T introduce me to his friends after a month or so of steady dating, I would start to wonder though. But along with that there would most likely be many of the other not-a-boyfriend signs going on.
Fiona says
Ruby I agree the young players often become the older players. They don’t just turn into players when they get to 40. By late 20s commitment minded men are often looking for a wife/getting married. If they are still playing around into their 30s without looking for something serious that isn’t a good sign in my view.
Jennifer, maybe Tom has improved if he is being that up front now. I still think that seeing no value in people other than for sex is pretty shallow. I also don’t see how an older version has much to offer me given that a man like that has by choice had no previous relationships to learn from. I don’t believe I am more special than the hundred or so that went before me either…I know I am not. Rampiance’s view I am absolutely sure is a minority view of women in their 30s. I move in pretty wide social circles. Plenty of women struggling to find a husband, very few looking to spend the of their lives without love and engaging in casual sex. Pretty sure this is the norm pretty much everywhere which is why blogs like this exist and there aren’t lots of blogs teaching women how to become pick up artists.
Steve, I am not sleeping with men I am not interested in or encouraging them in any way which would be unfair so I really don’t see the comparison. I am conscious of not leading people on if I have nothing to offer them.
Jennifer says
Fiona, my understanding of Rampiance’s situation is very different than what you’ve described. She’d like an LTR and is open to the right man for that. In the meantime, until she and that man cross paths, she’s not living a life of celibacy. Based on my experience ( and even reading this blog) that is not atall an uncommon position for men or women.
RW says
@Evan
I don’t think Fiona is being puritanical. Difference of opinion? Definitely. Not in accordance with popular opinion? Also definitely. But not puritanical.
Your point that such thoughts will seriously limit the number of available men is well taken. But when it comes to morals, just because something is done by the masses doesn’t make it right. Just makes it popular. I don’t judge people for sleeping with whoever they want to sleep with. As long as they are happy and not hurting anyone, it is no one else’s business but theirs. BUT, I do sincerely believe that by definition sex is not without emotional attachment and unnecessarily complicates things that would otherwise be clear. I, personally, would not have accepted a man who had indulged in hookups. But then he probably wouldn’t have wanted me either. I believe that sex belongs in a long term relationship and that one should wait until it has been established that the relationship is likely to be long term and not just a short term deal. It’s not a popular view and and I don’t suggest that others make it their own but we can agree to disagree without you calling me a puritan 🙂
I understand that your ire was directed at the comments that appeared to take a moral high ground but I find nothing wrong with the essence of the post. That doesn’t make her, or me, puritanical.
Jennifer says
Just read Rampaince’s comment again. I may well be misinterpreting her pov, she’d have to clear that up. But i do believe the attitude I described, look for the right one but no vow of celibacy in the meantime, is quite common for both sexes, though some, wrongly in my opinion, label this as ‘player’ or otherwise immoral behavior.
Goldie says
I see nothing wrong with the way Tom is acting, either. It’s when a man says he’s looking for a relationship, tries to get you to be exclusive, tries to claim your weekends, and in reality has no plans of ever getting serious, that he’s bad news and should be avoided. Tom on the other hand is pretty upfront about his intentions. For a woman that’s in between relationships and not ready for something serious, I’d say he’s perfect! For everyone else, he gives enough warning to stay away. If a woman doesn’t want to listen to what Tom tells her, that’s not his problem. Disclaimer, I only read #45 and not the discussion after that. I see nothing wrong with #45 though.
Fiona says
I have more or less decided that I don’t want anything more to do with men. i’m done. Too many players out there. Too many people defending their user ways. I hope the people genuinely looking for love find love and not sex. Good luck to you!
Draga says
Fiona,
I don’t know you, but what you’re saying sounds familiar. Your words and thoughts are the same as my family member’s used to be. Maybe these two links can help you learn something new.
These are 3 musts which A. Ellis used to say we give ourselves MUSTurbation with 🙂
http://rebtnetwork.org/library/musts.html
And this is a list of common cognitive distortions from a great book by D.Burns from Stanford.
http://healthymind.com/cognitive-distortions.pdf
Cheers!
starthrower says
I know that I am in the minority here, but I like Matthew 10:16: Be as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves. It is absolutely a woman’s responsibility to know herself and what her limits are. While it might mean some lonely nights, weekends, and holidays, there is great freedom in the ability to say “no”. I’m not talking about those things EMK suggests to make a significant other happy, I’m talking about knowing yourself well enough to know whether or not we can handle casual, no strings attached sex or whether it will cause us too much emotional struggle. The world has caused women to have to be able to compartmentalize as well as men. Those are the times we live in.
With regard to this notion that we shouldn’t judge, we judge all the time and are judged. If I refuse to be involved with someone who’s values don’t line up with mine, that is a moral judgement. No, I’m not wagging a finger at him and calling him a bad person; we all have good and bad aspects of our nature. But I am making the decision that I don’t want to be with someone who does not share my core values. That is a judgement call. In our PC society, however, we don’t want to acknowledge that there are any absolutes.
Ruby says
Selena #94
I brought up meeting friends because I once spent a few months dating someone who had done everything on EMK’s list except say ‘I love you”, and still hadn’t introduced me to friends or family. Such was the level of manipulation there. All the items on Evan’s “Boyfriend” list do happen along a continuum.
Fiona #95
Older players can be divorced too. The one I’m thinking of was still bitter about his ex, years after the marriage ended. Both guys I’m referencing expressed that their having been dumped themselves was justification for their behavior, although that may have been an excuse or rationalization. Interestingly, I haven’t found players to be entirely self-aware.
Fiona says
Draga the fact that I can’t stand that society positively encourages immoral men to look for sex with no interest whatsoever in the woman and to then say to women it is fine for men to behave in this way because they are men who decided you weren’t actually worth having feelings for or marrying (although some guy way lower doen the social scale might have you if you are really lucky) so women should just accept it because these are good men really does not make me mentally ill. If men look for sex and allegedly find love how many good women looking for love are they destroying on their way? I am worth so much more than that as are most single women I know nor are we less worthy wives than most of the married women I know. I don’t want to waste any more time looking for love if women look for love and men look for sex. The odds are totally stacked against women if men just want to keep having sex with lots of women until they find one they love (which many never will). Desire is one thing, morality is what used to hold good men back from encounters with women they weren’t serious about. We now live in a world where morality is no longer holding them back and I for one, have had enough. The fact that people think I have a cognitive disorder for thinking this way speaks volumes. There comes a point when a woman has to decide not to waste any more years on a quest for love which is only going to hurt her even more the longer it continues due to the rules if the game which do not guarantee success.
tina says
Each man or woman has the right to decide for themselves what kind of dater he/she wants to be.
There is ‘friends with benefits’ dater. You know, texts and emails sometimes and you have a sex occasionally.
Or there is so called ‘talking’ dater. You start to spend time together, you go to movies and dinners. And most people here prefer to take a time to learn more about the person, before they share their body.
Dating should be a nice experience though. And we all have different values and objectives to a relationship. I also believe in romantic love and i’m very picky when i do dates but never judge someone when he or she is a player.
Karisma says
Tom
It is great that Tom is being honest and upfront about dating casually and not wanting a relationship. How far into seeing someone, do you express that Tom?
I was recently dating and being intimate with someone. After 3 dates. Oops.
I made the mistake of not saying what I wanted before getting into it, till a month later. I tell the guy I do not want a casual thing. He was all full of complements and then mentions I will see how it goes.
I assume he is on the same page as me so keep dating, seeing him. He was the one pursuing me right from the start (I never sent texts first or rang him) but we were only seeing each other once a week. He would ring every now and then on the phone, send text messages every couple of days, during the day (no sex talk at all), we would hang out and date in public.
I had taken Evan’s advice on mirroring what a guy does when dating him. Thanks Evan! (That really opened up my eyes in this situation). Decided to apply that to this. Even though things seemed to be going well. Could still see that this guy was doing everything on Tom’s list. Glad I was not totally blinded by the amazing chemistry we had but was still very confused by this guys behaviour.
The whole thing only lasted two and a half months. Two and a half months later, after I had brought up not wanting casual, I was able to be more upfront with what I wanted, I just had, had enough of the confusion and told him if this is just a friends with benefits thing (it surely felt like it). I don’t want to be a part of it. (That was so hard to do because I had gotten feeling for him by that stage). He ends up ending it.
What I don’t get though is why keep it going after I told him I did not want casual a month and a half earlier? Surely he would have known what I had meant by that? That is what really hurt. He had allowed me to get feelings for him. Fully aware that I did not want a casual thing but he still kept on pursuing it anyway.
Was that being dishonest with me and led me on? It surely felt like it.
Evette says
It’s been dishonest and a type of forcefulness. I just went thru something similar. I call myself being honest and upfront and it was just information that was used. Now, if I say I want a relationship and they close me for sex and we’re not in a relationship. I immediately get away ( definitely don’t sleep with them) and send a text saying that we want different things and therefore not compatible. And fully block on social media and block his number on my phone and avoid him at all costs. He just wants to hurry up and get his and will drop you the minute he feels the well is dry.
Goldie says
@ Ruby #103, I have the same experience. The biggest player I’ve met (the one I referenced above) had been separated for a year after a 20-year marriage when I met him. (Before you ask why I went out with a separated man — up until our last date, I thought he was divorced. Go figure, right?) From what I understood, he’d had little to no social life before getting married, and had pretty much married the first woman he dated. He sounded a lot like he was trying to make up for what he considered lost years. Moral of the story, we should pay attention to how the man treats us, not to what his “resume” says. Even if he says he was a faithful husband for 20 years, if he acts like a player now, he is a player. Run.
My surprising discovery regarding players (I’ve met a few), was that they were all pretty awful in bed. I found that weird; I’d expected the opposite. I guess, when a man is all about himself and doesn’t care much about the other person, it shows.
Tom10 says
Rampiance
I’m so happy that you are able to live your life to its fullest and explore what ever dreams and experiences suit you. In previous generations you wouldn’t have been able to do this.
Soul
“as a woman however, I know he NEEDS a good woman and would be much happier if he was sharing a real connection with someone right now…we are right haha”
You could be right. Indeed I hope you are right. If I’m happier in a relationship than I am now I’ll be the happiest person in the world 🙂 But I’ll be satisfied with either situation.
RW
I see your position as totally different to Fiona’s even though you have a similar outlook regarding sex and relationships. I think it’s very reasonable for you and Fiona not to choose people like me. You lie on one side of the sexual spectrum whereas I lie at the other extreme end; most people are in the middle and have the odd one-night stand and / or fling in between relationships.
You said: “I don’t judge people for sleeping with whoever they want to sleep with” whereas Fiona said: “I am afraid I do judge,” so that’s what makes her puritanical.
Choosing someone who behaves in a similar manner to you is just exercising personal bias, not being judgemental.
Fiona and I both come from similar backgrounds, were provided with the same chances and opportunities in life, and we both work hard to achieve our goals. She is a stereotypical woman and I’m a stereotypical man so it’s useful for both of us to understand how the other thinks. Her ideal is to marry a man at 20 and raise a family with him. My ideal is to date a string of international super-models and then maybe settle down. Neither of us will get that ideal but I’m perfectly happy with my reality. I’m happy for her to go out and achieve her dreams, but she thinks it’s unjust and immoral that I can live mine. I find this thinking irrational.
Fiona
As you say I’ve passed up many fantastic women in the past; I’ve dated doctors, accountants, lawyers and even a politician. But I didn’t ‘reject’ any of these women for being not good enough; I just chose not to pursue a relationship with them because I wasn’t in a place mentally to do so. I’m sure they’ll make great wives someday and I wish them all well. It’s just men like me live our lives according to our timelines, not anybody else’s.
I don’t know why this upsets you because in real life we’d both sense what the other was about and stay away from each other.
Karisma
“How far into seeing someone, do you express that Tom?”
I do it as soon as I possibly can, before the first ‘proper’ date anyway. I didn’t do this in the past because I didn’t think it was my job to state intentions upfront, however, it’s actually the best thing I’ve ever done. Women seem to appreciate the more honest and open I am. In fact I’m staggered at how receptive, understanding and open-minded most women are.
Yes the guy you dated was very unfair to keep seeing you casually after you had told him that wasn’t what you wanted.
Goldie
“My surprising discovery regarding players, was that they were all pretty awful in bed”
Ha ha you’re right, they are selfish thinking of their own pleasure, not yours.
Fiona says
Tom I am afraid that I cannot hope that you achieve your dream of bedding lots of women because it is impossible for you to do so without hurting lots of other people. That is rational thinking. So is deciding to reject men who have treated other women like that in the past because it shows me that you really don’t care about other people so long as you get your kicks and that is not a trait I want in a partner. What I do hope for you is that you grow out of your behaviour pdq as the time when you are most likely to find a woman is both hot and nice to be a partner is actually now. Women prefer peers and will still prefer peers when you get older.
Karmic Equation says
@Tom10
I don’t find you have to reform anything. It’s your prerogative, and some scientific evidence suggests in your biology, to seek variety. In my opinion, you’ve gone out of your way to not lead women on…and I would even go so far as to say that you never had the obligation to do even that. It is the WOMAN’s responsibility to be able to determine and make an independent judgment of whether you are offering what they are looking for…to decide for themselves based on their own observations, whether you are worthy to have sex with them or not.
Thank you for the compliment, Tom. Yes, the fact that I lack drama and actually understand men and appreciate the specialness that makes men men, makes me special in his eyes, leading him to treat me special.
When you find the right woman, you’ll want to change for her. Just take a word of advice, even if she is the most open of women, don’t tell her the number of women in your past. I recently had this conversation with my bf and while I *guessed* it was a huge number, it was still disconcerting to have it confirmed. (He brought it up, I didn’t, btw).
@EMK
Evan, the way I see it, ultimately, is that women like Fiona is what drives the men of her dreams (rich, educated, well-traveled)–as well as the men of her nightmares–into arms of women like me–We need women like her in the world to create the contrast that makes men feel lucky to have found us and glad to commit to us. Women who judge men as Fiona does, are their own worst enemy and I feel sad about that.
The problem for women is NOT that there are players in the world. The problem is that women like her are not honing their guy-dars well enough to identify the heartless players…and not having the emotional capacity to deal with the aftermath of a sexual experience should they have chosen wrong…and not having the self-awareness required to accept responsibility for their poor choices. As a analogy…many alcoholics refuse to admit they have a drinking problem because by acknowledging it they know they have a responsibility to fix it.
@Fiona
I don’t get how being chased by men for one’s looks would make one feel worthless. That is a total non-sequitur. The feeling of worthlessness is self-inflicted. To put it in perspective, just as someone can’t *make* another person a *narcissist* one cannot make another person worthless. It all comes from within, not without.
By demonizing all men who want sex (which is all men in the world), Fiona, you have given the players in your past power over your present and future happiness. Do those players deserve to have that kind of power over your life?
The best revenge is to live well and in happiness.
@Goldie
Funny story…My reformed-player bf has James Bond charm, so when he charmed me into bed, I was expecting James Bond skilz. NOT. LOL. In fact, I was so disappointed in his performance that for a week I ignored his obvious signs of interest to have another go. At the end of the week, he managed to corner me privately to ask.
I looked him straight in the eye and said, “Dude, the first time was nothing to write home about. I told you I wasn’t finished and you didn’t take care of business. Why would I want another go??”
HIM: I had to go work the next morning and would only get another hour of sleep as it was. I don’t have to work tomorrow and can spend all night with you tonight. I promise to do X,Y,Z to you.
ME: So me first this time? You promise?
HIM: Yes.
He came through, but I did have to teasingly remind him of his promise throughout the night. He kept forgetting in the heat of the moment. It was kinda cute…Fond memory that.
RW says
@Tom
Fair enough. I didn’t say so specifically but after reading your posts, I do appreciate the fact that you are honest upfront. That is all anyone can ever ask for.
In retrospect, I guess I do judge after all. starthrower has a point. I judge because I have a definite sense of what is right and what is wrong but I only apply it to myself. What someone else does is none of my business as long as I’m not dating him. I get really angry though, when I see people hurting each other, men or women. A friend got burned not too long ago and it was awful to see. She met a guy online and after a string of lacklustre first dates was surprised to find that she really liked this one. They dated for a while, seeing each other 2 or 3 times a week. He seemed like a good guy (and possibly was). At some point (1.5 months in maybe), he started to push her to have sex. She was uncertain, not because she didn’t like him but because she wasn’t sure where the whole thing was going. She finally caved. A few weeks later he bid her adieu saying he didn’t have feelings for her. Changed your mind about her? Fine. It happens. But then don’t sleep with her when you know she’s really into you, is reluctant about sex and is looking for a long term relationship. What really got me was the reason for the breakup: “I don’t have feelings for you.” He didn’t know this 3 weeks earlier? As many of you will point out she is absolutely to blame for caving. But what happened to integrity in a man?
I’ll be honest, your way of life sounds like a lot of fun! I just don’t think I could handle it. I wonder though, will you get used to this kind of life and by the time you want to settle down will it be too late? I think this is especially true for a woman who wants to settle down eventually and have children.
henriette says
Fiona100 – I’m sorry that you’re (currently) feeling defeated in your search for love and I sincerely hope that you’ll change your mind and re-join the fray, whether now or after a short “dating break”. I know that this process can be demoralising at times, but all you need is ONE good man and finding him is worth effort. Then again, if you do decide to permanently stop dating, there are far worse fates than being a fulfilled single woman and/or SMC (single mother by choice).
I’d like to give a slightly different spin on the “men shouldn’t sleep with women unless they want a relationship” issue. I have 3 single brothers: tall, handsome, high income, pretty good guys. Plenty of women make it clear that they’re open and ready for sex with them on date 2 or 3. At that point, who – male or female? – can know if they’re right for a relationship or not? It seems to me that these women are 1) just up for some fun sex that they know may or may (probably) not lead to a serious relationship 2) using sex to try to catch & keep guys they perceive as good prospects or 3) weirdly naive, believing that after a couple of dates one can know enough about another to enter into a committed relationship. I feel bad for my brothers to be put in the position of always having to guess – sometimes with unpleasant consequences – which is the case.
Michelle says
“What I don’t get though is why keep it going after I told him I did not want casual a month and a half earlier? Surely he would have known what I had meant by that? That is what really hurt. He had allowed me to get feelings for him. Fully aware that I did not want a casual thing but he still kept on pursuing it anyway.”
So many great lessons to be learned in this experience. This is what life is, a series of experiences that we can learn from (or not, most people don’t). Doesn’t make the experience any less uncomfortable, saddening or angering.
1. The communication didn’t sound clear enough, on either end. Sounds like he he got away with being ‘vague’.
2. Assumptions…not a good thing in relationships, romantic or otherwise.
3. He continued to make contact, and there was consistent response. If I was a man I would think the woman didn’t didn’t mean what she said since the actions didn’t match the words (men are action oriented).
3. He was doing the things on Tom’s list, but there was still hope that he would ‘see the light’ and want what you wanted.
It’s very, very common for women not to speak our truth, for many reasons. This is our issue though, not anyone else’s–we’re NOT victims. The only way to overcome this is to have courage and practice communciation skills. I think women would be endlessly surprised in so many ways if they could learn to speak their truth.
Karisma says
Michelle
Agree with you and have thought all those things after what had happened with that guy.
I did speak up and was more upfront with what I wanted at the end of that two and a half months. Remember that! Just wish I had been more so, a month into it. Yes. He was being very vague.
I remember feeling disappointed after getting that response. I just did not want to pressure him that’s all. But know now to not be afraid to walk away if it is something I do not want to hear.
Kicking myself and so annoyed at myself for not speaking up, more so then regardless! I would have saved myself a lot of grief. Lesson learnt.
Even though I was very hurt by the whole thing. At least I do not have to deal with confusion of the whole thing anymore which was doing my head in. That was a total relief to be free of all that!
Evan
It still baffles me why he still pursued me if he did not want anything serious after I did mention that I did not want casual. Besides the obvious answer. With still sending texts, dating me and getting to know me in between if he was not up for anything serious.
Evette says
He is a user, a defect, a DBR. Now you know. Figure out ways to stick to your guns with more success in the future
Draga says
Fiona,
I would never imply that somebody had a mental illness, since I’m not qualified for that. Everybody has cognitive distortions, they are part of the human way of thinking.
My cousin doesn’t have a mental illness. Her problem was that she had high expectations from younger colleagues at work. It turned out that most of them didn’t care about their company, had gladly used her experience and knowledge to gain new skills and than would leave either for a better company or to start their own businesses. She was constantly mad because of this, thought that they were just a bunch of users, then felt helpless and hopeless about the whole situation… Then she tried not to share her knowledge anymore with anyone, which resulted in people leaving even earlier than before, which brought more troubles… There was something in your way of reasoning that simply reminded me of hers, that’s all.
I remember when she presented us (our extended family) with MUSTs and cognitive distortions that we all enjoyed learning about them and then teasing each other whenever we would caught somebody using that way of reasoning. I just wanted to offer it to you as a tool, if it suits you.
Tom10 says
Fiona
I don’t expect you to wish me well or expect you to date men like me. It’s only fair that you reject men with my history and I respect that. I was just struck how you said it would be “rough justice” if I end up settled with kids in 10 years. My point is that the universe doesn’t owe either of us what we want, yet we were both lucky enough to be equipped with the tools (you are beautiful, intelligent and successful) to go out and get what we want. I just find it odd that you think it’s unfair that I chose to live my life the way I have and still attain my goals.
“the time you are most likely to find a woman is both hot and nice to be a partner is actually now. Woman prefer peers”
You touch on an important point. Without meaning to sound crass, selfish or misogynistic; I don’t care what women want, I care what I want. Just like you (rightly) don’t care what men want, you care what you want. I’m 29 so I meet plenty of interested 29 yr old women. But I also meet women from 18 (a bit young for me) to 36 who are interested. However, I feel like I’m still reaching my peak and have another few years to go: at that point what woman do you think I’ll pick? The 27 year old of course. I know this is unfair, but it’s life. I know every 27 yr old won’t want me then, but I only need one.
Karmic Equation
I agree 100% that I’m going above and beyond my obligations to look out for the well-being of others and I never used to say anything, however, I had a bad experience last year. I met a girl at a bar, we went back to hers etc etc. To me it was just another weekend and another story, but apparently she actually thought I was ‘the one’. I was shocked at how naïve she was at 25. We met up a few times but it was clear she got the wrong idea. When I tried to finish it she effectively had a breakdown and turned psychotic. She claimed she was pregnant (I knew for a fact this was a lie), and turned into a stalker etc. Thankfully after many months of comforting that I was the one with issues not her, she calmed down and understood. I know that technically it’s her problem not mine, and she clearly shouldn’t be meeting men in bars, but I still do my best now to tread carefully; that’s why I’m upfront. Besides every woman I’ve told so far has taken it with a pinch of salt (once I see how great she is I’ll change my mind kind of thing).
Thanks for that tip but don’t worry I won’t tell any woman my number. In fact I don’t know what it is myself as I stopped considering it relevant years ago! Yes I’d say you have a better understanding of men than any woman I’ve ever known; that knowledge is powerful, use it carefully! ha
RW
“What happened to integrity in a man?
Yes your friend’s scenario sounds hurtful and I’m careful to avoid leading women into those situations, but it’s not gender specific as you seem to be implying. You’d be shocked at how easily women dump men just as quickly and without explanation (some women don’t seem to think we also suffer pain for some reason); it’s just the way it is these days. To survive in this big bad world we all just have to toughen up emotionally. It’s every man or woman for themselves out there and that’s just the way it is. No use complaining about it.
“I’ll be honest, your way of life sounds like a lot of fun! I just don’t think I could handle it…by the time you want to settle down will it be too late?
It is a lot of fun! I meet smart, funny, sassy women almost every weekend and they all have a story to tell and a life to live. But there are downsides to this hedonistic joy; I get dumped and knocked back a fair bit, but I can handle that. The energy required is enormous which it takes its toll, and I also see a fair bit of loneliness which saddens me. I always used to wonder why women picked me up as a stranger at a bar, and brought me back to hers just for a cuddle. Now I know why.
How can I leave it too late? Unfortunately fertility is the one trump card that men have on women which I acknowledge makes the dating game unfair. However, it is in my interest to use this card to strike the best possible deal I can. Women have their own cards which they should use to strike their best possible deal. Even if I do leave it to late I won’t be unduly upset — chickens coming home to roost and all that.
Some other Steve says
If Fiona rejects every guy who’s ever been a guy, I fear she will find very slim pickin’s in the partner department.
Fiona says
Karmic I do accept my share of responsibility for allowing myself to have been duped by players. I don’t accept responsibility for them being jerks and nor do they no doubt. Not sure I agree that women like me make all men appreciate women like you all the more. Maybe true of the players but not sure this is true of men who want a loving girlfriend who doesn’t engage in casual sex all over town which I am. If the players prefer you that is fine with me. You accept them where I do not so it is not surprising.
Fusee says
Fiona,
I really understand your values. I have the same. Have your opinion and don’t judge. Plenty of women enjoy casual sex, and it’s up to us to educate our younger and naive friends and relatives who might not know how men function. That’s pretty much all we can do.
However it does not mean that you have no other option than dating a player (reformed or not) or give up completely. Men sharing your values exist, but you must choose your priorities… We just had that long thread on your question to Evan regarding your education requirements, and now it’s about your sexual values requirement… At some point you’ll have to write down your priorities and decide what is your absolute deal-breaker.
For me although I could also have written plenty on education, etc, when it came down to must-have, something that if it does not exist would mean for me to be single, it was character, morals, and ethics. Since i like RW I do not have sex outside a relationship that has not a goal of going long-term if possible, it meant finding a man who would have the patience to wait and the courage tho talk about serious topics early on. Since it’s not easy qualities to find I had to give up pretty much all other requirements and simply see what would happen. Because I was perfectly happy single I did not make any effort to meet men, just kept myself engage in activities matching my values and interests. And then I met my boyfriend. Like every men he was interested in sex, but as I explained my values and goals he realized that he had two options: trying with another woman or taking me seriously. He chose patience and he got more than he thought he could ever get. I had to accept some complications as well. Relationships are negotiations. You have to drop the unnecessary but you have to stick to your true values. Then you’ll meet
Fiona says
Tom the difference between you and me is that I do care what men want. I care what good men want in a long term partner because I want to make someone happy not just me and I do care if I hurt someone along the way. I don’t care what players i.e. men who sleep around with no intention of caring about anyone want. You aren’t comparing like with like. Given that I have always had love to offer and have never treated others carelessly I would say yes it does seem pretty rough to see someone who doesn’t care about anyone else for years end up in a loving relatiionship while I end up with nothing. Then again life isn’t fair. I do not agree with Evan that all men are players. Many are not.
Kai Webster says
“Tom the difference between you and me is that I do care what men want. I care what good men want in a long term partner because I want to make someone happy not just me and I do care if I hurt someone along the way.”
Fiona,
You speak with strength, and THAT is attractive. Because, you know, it makes your core values more… believable?
Rampiance says
RW @ 111 and anyone else who has noticed that men (players or not) who are pushy are not good in bed ~~ the two observations are related.
A man is pushy when he’s desperate or when he’s inconsiderate or when he’s out of sync with the woman.
Desperation: it’s all about him and his gratification, not hers
Inconsiderate: he doesn’t think about her satisfaction, maybe because it hasn’t occurred to him, maybe because he doesn’t care
Out of sync: he doesn’t know how to connect with a woman at the level that it takes to be sexually satisfying to her, or he’s just not on the same wavelength she is
So I would recommend pushiness about sex as a signal to back away from a man. My observation has been that the best lovers NEVER push for the initial sexual encounter with a woman, probably because women take the initiative with them. These men have super confidence in their magnetism and charm, and that whole package draws women in.
In response to some of the confusion about my post #83, I meet men as potential friends, not as potential lovers, not as potential boyfriends, not as potential husbands. A few do become very good friends, and I consider that to actually be a higher standard than convention applies to the other categories.
I, like Tom, tell men I’m meeting (at the first potentially date-like meeting) that I’m not seeking a boyfriend. And just in case anyone was sidetracked by Fiona’s mean little barb about “a host of random men”, I am VERY selective about my lovers. That’s why I’m almost always very happy with them and rarely disappointed.
Barry says
I am going to agree somewhat with Fiona.
Women are not men. The act of sex will push them to bond with men. Its biology.
Acting like men, and seeking out casual sexual relationships is not a game women were built for, and its not a game that they can win.
And yes, men should be aware that their selfish desires could cause emotional damage to a women. Also, for some women this damage will be cumulative, and far from a short sting. Men should be more responsible.
That said, women are indeed the gatekeepers of sex. They have total control. All they need to do is withhold sex until commitment. Its as simple as that.
Well I say simple. The strategy is almost certain to lose the alpha male who doesn’t need to wait around. It might work four a young and pretty woman, but that is all.
The real problem Fiona faces, and indeed most women, is that they are only willing to date men who can afford to be players. They do not want the men who are looking for commitment.
Men like Tom have the power to do what they want, because WOMEN have given him that power. Its their fault. You can only win with these men if you possess the right currency which is youth and beauty.
So reality check. The older you are as a women the more you have to compromise. It doesn’t matter if women want ‘peers’, because they have no power to demand one. The Toms of this world will win whatever their age.
Fiona, there are a huge number of men who will love you for who you are – right now. They are ready for a relationship. They are the ones you completely ignore, the ones that are invisible to you.
I’m sorry that this is the case, the world is not how we would wish it, but you have to lower your expectations. Probably quite a lot.
Aisling says
I am with Fiona and a few of the others on here. I’ve never been a fan of casual sex because it is unfulfilling (yes, I did try it a few times when I was much younger). However, I know women in my general age group (over 45) who can’t go a week without sex. They have much higher libidos than I do. Only with the relatively few men I have felt a strong connection/attraction to has my sex drive gone into full gear. Just the way I am wired. Maybe I missed out on a lot of fun, but I also avoided the unplanned pregancies and STDs some of my friends experienced.
As far as men like Tom are concerned, I have been able to recognize them since I was very young. Not bad guys, just men I know I wouldn’t fit with. Goodlooking, charming, suave, funny. I never tried to date men like them, thus never had a problem with them. I don’t feel that I lost anything because we wouldn’t have matched, anyway. Wishing that these types of men had a different focus gets me nowhere. It is what it is.
I have a cousin who is now 55, a stockbroker, never married. He is reasonably attractive, has beaucoup bucks, and is funny and sociable. Over the years, I have watched him date one highly eligible woman after another, one for as long as 9 years, but never could make that committment. Then, he developed a condition called psoriatic arthritis, which can be totally debilitating, and it certainly has slowed him down. Now, he still has the money, but he can’t keep up the pace of partying, etc that he used to. My aunt tells my mom that he is frequently in tears over some of the choices he has made, and all he wants is to settle down and have a family. She has lost patience with him, and has told him she’s tired of his whining. Oh, and with regards to fertility, just because a man CAN sire later in life doesn’t mean he necessarily should.
sarahrahrah! says
Wow!
Excellent post and response by EMK and so much wisdom shared here by the commenters.
Some other Steve says
@Aisling #123
“Wishing that these types of men had a different focus gets me nowhere. It is what it is.”
Realizing that you cannot wish away realities of the world seems to be really, really healthy.
Tom10 says
Fiona
Firstly morality.
Morality is specific to each individual and is not a universal absolute. Your morals are irrelevant to me because I have my own set of morals. You think I’m immoral for having random sex, whereas the Pope and the Iranian moral police consider you immoral for having extra-marital sex. Thankfully we both live in countries which allow us to take control of our own sexuality. However, with this right we must assume the responsibility that goes along with it. If I pick up an incurable STD or impregnate an unsuitable woman I have to take responsibility for that. The same goes for women who sleep with men without commitment — they have to take responsibility for the consequences. You are not better than me for exercising your sexuality in a way that suits you, just different.
Secondly what women want.
When I said I don’t care what women want I didn’t mean that I don’t care about their welfare. I have a mother, sisters, nieces, female friends and colleagues and I care deeply about what they want. I meant that when I’m looking for a woman, I don’t care about the criteria that she uses to pick a mate (educated, ethical etc); I care about my criteria (hot and sexual). That’s why I found your comment that “women prefer peers” comical. Who cares that women prefer peers; many men don’t prefer their peers and that’s their prerogative. Likewise when I said you don’t care about what men want I was talking about the older men, manual labourers, and launderette operatives etc who are attracted to you. You don’t care that they are looking for young, hot women because you are thinking of your own criteria.
Barry
I am beginning to agree with you that women are the authors of their own misfortune; however, you can’t blame them for wanting what they want. I feel sorry for women because many of them are so critically naïve when it comes to men that they are guaranteeing that will end up single later in life. Women (particularly attractive ones) in their 20’s don’t have to understand men or hone their skills because men come to them. When they lose their youth and beauty (their power over men) they are hopelessly lost because they don’t have these skills or understanding. That is why Evan’s advice is so important.
Men go out from a young age seeking sex; therefore the onus is on us to understand women early to get it.
Aisling
I’m not in any way advocating that women engage in casual sex; I agree that it doesn’t suit a lot of women and that people should be very careful when indulging in it. I am just advocating taking responsibility for one’s actions and emotions, and also to know what your goals are and then learn how to go out and achieve those goals.
Good warning on not leaving it too late btw. I agree that there comes a point beyond which men probably shouldn’t sire children. That point is when they don’t feel they have the capacity to rear them for the next 20 years.
Jenna says
Karmic provides some really interesting insight here but I wish she would be more understanding of the fact that most women aren’t built for casual sex, nor should they try to be. We’re not men, and shouldn’t apologize for it. I do have casual sex myself, but not entirely by choice – I’ve been single for years, have a high sex drive, and refuse to be celibate while I’m in my prime (an attractive late 20s woman). I would love to save it only for a relationship but I can’t find the relationship I want, even when I hold off on sex with men I’m dating who I regard as serious ltr prospects. At times, I feel uncomfortable with my behavior, but I really do have a high sex drive that has to be met somehow. While I don’t sleep with guys like Tom, at times I get more emotionally invested than I should.
I sympathize with Fiona, but honestly, there are a ton of men out there who aren’t players out for casual sex. That seems to get really overplayed on this blog. Most of my friends are (nerdier) men, and I reglarly go out with guys – including some puas – as their wingwoman to help them be more successful with women. I wouldn’t do it if they were out to scam girls and use them for sex, though; they’re just trying to have more options and find a nice girlfriend. I never understood until I started doing that just how rough the majority of men have it – women can be so rude, flaky, and fickle!
Frankly, I take some of what Evan says with a grain of salt, because he’s only speaking for the top 20-30 percent of men, and I don’t want a guy like him, a sexually aggressive alpha male. He’s only offering one perspective, which Fiona shouldn’t let upset her.
Fiona says
Tom your attempts to compare your behaviour to mine use skewed logic. I don’t want men who are much older than me, unintelligent or unattractive. I am not however doing anything other than what is necessary to hurt them – I’m not sleeping with them, I’m not leading them on and I am never going to do either of those two things. They might be upset for a few minutes if I turn them down. That’s it. You can’t compare that kind of rejection with dumping someone after sex.
When I said women prefer peers my point was that you should be aware that when you are older and seeking a partner you may find that you won’t get much attention from the younger women who will be generally seeking men their age and your choices may be somewhat restricted to the remaining women of your generation that your peers haven’t already snapped up while you were sleeping around. It really is a myth that most women prefer much older men.
Tom10 says
Fiona,
I meant that the Pope would judge you for having premarital sex, not extramarital sex – lapse in concentration.
nathan says
I’m a man has never been comfortable with casual sex. The few times I have done it have always been followed by entirely too much worrying and self doubt. So, I get the reluctance many women have towards casual sex, and yet, I also reject the moralistic judgments that Fiona and a few others have towards those who are into casual sex. Particularly those like Tom who are not manipulating, lying, and future faking to get into bed with someone.
Fiona, I think I rushed to defend you in the previous thread. You seem to be seeking a purity that doesn’t likely exist. It makes total sense to weed out men like Tom, but you are letting your personal history with players color everything in these conversations. The fierceness with with you judge men like Tom, and the effort you go to in order to distance yourself from any possible comparison with men like Tom, makes me wonder if a man with anything in his past that isn’t “pure” would be grounds for rejection by you. I have always been a commitment minded man, but like Jenna above, I have had a handful of casual experiences over the years. Many men are like me. As are many women actually. I don’t think it’s particularly special or holy to remain celibate for months or years on end.
At the end of the day, no one is perfect. And if you ever find someone that you really like and grow to love, odds are he will fall short in more than one area on your list. He might be financially successful with a good formal education, but have a mixed sexual history. Or maybe he’s got less formal education, and isn’t a top earner, but his relationship history is more in line with the morals you seem to desire. Those are just two of the myriad of possible combinations, none of which will look exactly like the guy you think you must have. Keep your standards, but don’t cling to them as if your life depends upon them all being met.
Katarina Phang says
Fiona, having just finished a book on the subject of dating emotionally unavailable men (EUM), I can tell you this much that it’s a rare case that men go into dating with their mind set to looking to commit right away.
Sure, they eventually want to find that one right woman but they are much more interested in the process of getting there first and foremost. Women, otoh, are like you: we set our goals first and we set out to look that one man who will promise us to help us achieve those goals.
In the process, so many women scare so many guys off because of the pressuring vibe they radiate.
It’s not a winning strategy to any woman.
You can only inspire commitment in a man if you understand the “beasts” you are dealing with here: what makes them tick, what motivates them, what unconsciously governs them, what triggers deep attraction in them, how to get deeply emotionally attached to you, etc….
Blaming and shaming men won’t cult it. But by wholly understanding what a man is made of will make you stand out from all those women who have men keep disappearing on them.
It starts with a new attitude as Evan suggests. You can’t navigate the wild world of dating with the wrong colored glasses (that unfortunately so many women wear).
Accept men as they are. Love them for who they are and in return they love you all the more for that!! Men are designed and conditioned to have sex in their mind first and foremost, just like birds’s first instinct is to fly. Do you hate birds for that, that because they can fly it’s so hard for you to catch them? No, you just have accept and to deal with that and find a way to catch them if that’s what you want.
The same with men. It doesn’t mean you have to sleep with each one of them, but it means you understand their needs to want sex. You’ll be the one who loses out if they don’t! Unless you are not very sexual either, this will be a problem down the road.
Helen says
Fiona and Barry: though I have no problems with Tom, I understand exactly where both of you are coming from.
Barry, thanks for pointing out the politically incorrect but true fact: women ARE different from men in terms of sexual desire. There are bell curves of preference associated with each gender, of course, but by and large we aren’t looking for the same things – women love, and men sex, as Evan points out.
Now there is such an overemphasis on sex in western society, it becomes tiresome and irritating. There are so many ways to relate to another human being besides sex. Yet that’s the relationship facet that’s always most emphasized, and anyone who thinks otherwise is considered a prude or frigid. It’s all about, how many dates until I get her in bed, or until I have to put out, or until x, y, or z sexual event occurs… How about we think way out of the box, and ask, how many dates till I have a really good stimulating conversation with this other person, the kind that makes my mind feel blown? Sound stupid? Sound laughable? Sounds awesome to me.
I’m not judging anyone for whatever their sexual preferences may be, especially not Tom. I’d encourage others not to make others’ sexual preferences the cornerstone of how they think about that person. And if you yourself happen to have a one-night stand or to forgo it – let it go, it’s not that big a deal. At the end of the day, other facets of relationships are more important. Be yourself, be brave enough to be honest about what you want so that you don’t go blaming the other person.
(Karmic 110, your last story rocks. 😀 )
Aisling says
@Tom # 126 I am sure that if I met you, I’d like you very much. I just know that, even if I was your age, we wouldn’t be a couple. Case in point. I have been waited on by bartenders your age who are very attentive to me. Now, I KNOW these men aren’t interested in me. By contrast, my brother, who is 54 and single, thinks that the 25 year-old female who is attentive to him is a dating prospect. My brother is good-looking and in great shape, but is a mid-level government worker, making less than 100K per year. He thinks that these women are interested in him. Whereas, I am appreciative of the male bartender who doesn’t ignore me, as many female bartenders do ignore me. I leave them a generous tip, never even deluding myself for a microsecond that they think I am a hot cougar.
I met men like you when I was your age, and always liked them while knowing that they would never be interested in me as a long-term dating prospect.
No problems there at all. I know that while many people like me, I am not every man’s cup of tea..
Aisling says
@ Nathan # 130. Some of us are celibate because we don’t find anyone we even want to have casual sex with. I am NOT judging anyone, male or female, who has casual sex. For me, it is just not something I want to do. Especially at my age (51) To be honest, though, it is not something that has *ever* turned me on.
I am not particularly religious. Raised Catholic, now running as far from that faith as I can. I would call myself a Deist. Yet, I am not one who wants casual sex.
Different people have different libidos. Mine has always been on the low side, unless I meet a man who turns it on for me. As you maintain that is it not particularly special to remain celibate for a period of time, I in turn maintain that it is not so wonderful to rut like deer simply to get one’s rocks off. Again, no judgement. Different Strokes for different folks.
Aisling says
@ Jenna #127 I agree with you entirely!
Karmic Equation says
@Fiona
“Karmic I do accept my share of responsibility for allowing myself to have been duped by players. I don’t accept responsibility for them being jerks and nor do they no doubt.”
No one here has asked you to accept responsibility for them being jerks. What people are asking is for you not to JUDGE the “jerks” 🙂
And, for the record, let’s do the numbers game with your criteria…In the last 18 years I’ve had sex with 4 men. How many men have you had sex with in the last 18 years? If more than four, then by your own criteria you are more promiscuous than I.
I’m not promiscuous. But I can and do have sex without commitment…However, I have such well-honed guydar that I manage to find or convert ONS’s into relationships. And I’m a plain vanilla girl when it comes to sex. Nothing freaky, so that isn’t the reason I have a successful conversion rate.
My educated guess is that I’m so unique to men in that I don’t think they’re all that special and so, sex doesn’t change how I relate to them. I don’t chase men after sleeping with them. I don’t treat them or think of them as bfs just because we’ve had sex. I continue to treat them as HUMAN BEINGS first. That is what they appreciate. No judgment and no hostility. Just warmth, friendship, understanding, happiness and good humor. Whoever I was before I had sex with them is who am I after.
@Jenna
I do understand that most women can’t have sex without commitment. But for a lot of men, especially men with options, commitment without his devotion first won’t be long-lasting. He doesn’t have to “love” you, but he should WANT to love you, which you could say is my loose, and not dictionary-accurate, definition of devotion 🙂
And to win a man’s devotion, you have to be special, which means you can’t be like the other women he’s dated.
Special doesn’t mean sleeping with him without commitment, but you have to be something he’s not used to. Treating him like a human being first instead of “a man” is a good start. You can treat “sex” as special, but don’t treat HIM as special.
As Barry says, “Acting like men, and seeking out casual sexual relationships is not a game women were built for, and its not a game that they can win.”
So don’t play the game the way a man wants you to play it (i.e., “Have sex with me and maybe I’ll give you a relationship.”) — Don’t fall for that relationship-carrot that he dangles in front of you. Change the game to one YOU can win…become the kind of woman he can’t stop thinking about…You win whether he stays or he goes. All I can say is don’t be the Glenn Close kind of unforgettable. Don’t worry about having a relationship. Make sure every time he’s with you, you’re enjoying life and happy. Happiness pulls a guy towards you with the same power that neediness pushes him away.
@Tom
My bf has had similar experiences with unstable women. One threatened to commit suicide if he left her, another tried to run him over with her car, another claimed to be pregnant. And those are the ones he told me about…I’m sure there were stalkers, too. Goes with the territory, my friend. Can’t say I feel sorry for either of you. Karma. LOL
@Helen
Thanks. I think that honesty blew his mind and made me special instantly.
@Katarina Phang
Totally agree with you.
JB says
@Jenna #127 “there are a ton of men out there who aren’t players out for casual sex. That seems to get really overplayed on this blog. Most of my friends are (nerdier) men, and I reglarly go out with guys — including some puas — as their wingwoman to help them be more successful with women. I wouldn’t do it if they were out to scam girls and use them for sex, though; they’re just trying to have more options and find a nice girlfriend. I never understood until I started doing that just how rough the majority of men have it — women can be so rude, flaky, and fickle!”
Thanks Jenna for once again pointing THESE MEN out. These are some of the men that might make good long term partners that MANY women won’t give the time of day to because they’re not tall enough, educated enough, cute enough, __________ fill in the blank enough. Let us not forget many women are attracted to “player/narcissists” for a reason. It’s really tough to be a player/narcissist if you’re an average looking guy with an average job.
Rochelle says
Karmic Equation, I also appreciate feminine power posts, especially the one at 62. It is fun to exercise one’s feminine power and what you say here is the most effective mindset to have about men and dating. Especially re: sex. I used to look at guys as being creeps for wanting sex too. But now when I’m meeting a new guy, it’s like “yeah he’s going to want sex eventually but that doesn’t mean I have to have sex with him, we’ll see how things go between us”. The choice as to whether or not we let them in and share that experience is our choice, so why get mad at a man for wanting to have sex with no strings attached… I just know I don’t feel comfortable engaging in casual sex and since that’s not what I want, then I reserve the right to let him know that, without villainizing him
Aside from sex, yeah we have so much power to influence a man, simply by being sure of ourselves and embracing our feminine power. Act like a prize and he’ll see you as one. I feel like one of the guys under my radar was trying to play his “make her chase me” game with me after a few outings, but since I don’t do that, I won’t go along with it. I also didn’t berate him for this. Now I find him pursuing me more than the beginning. I wasn’t even “trying to get him to do anything”, and knew whether or not I heard from him again, I’d be ok, since I didn’t invest anything. I just know I only feel comfortable with mirroring guys during the courtship and won’t chase them down, so I’m not going to reach out to them and initiate to keep in touch. So I stuck with that and I figured if he or any man wants to be around, he will come to me and want to make it happen. If he doesn’t do anything, I have my answer.
Tom10 says
Fiona
We can keep going back and forth here forever without achieving anything. The simple fact is we’re all playing the same game: the dating game, and ultimately the game of life. The winners of this game are the ones who go out there, get knocked back, and then try again. The losers are the ones who watch from the side and complain about life not coming to them, or how unfair it is. Which one are you gonna be? The choice is yours – how we play the hand we were given is what counts, and you were lucky to be given a good hand.
You’d be far better off paying attention to what Evan, Karmic and Fusee etc. say, than begrudging me.
Jenna
“guys like Tom”
Ha I’m actually far softer in real life than the tone of my posts might suggest. I’m closer to a teddy bear than a ‘beast’ or ‘predator’ — a deviant teddy bear 🙂
“he’s only speaking for the top 20-30 percent of men, and I don’t want a guy like him, a sexually aggressive alpha male”
I don’t think Evan is so much sexually aggressive as confident and assertive, and these are the qualities that women here are looking for (I think). In fact Fiona’s not only looking for a man in the top 30%; she’s looking for one in the top 1-5 percent!
Aisling
Thanks for that — I’m sure I’d like you in person too. Your brother’s example is funny. No matter how ugly, old or unsuccessful a man is, or how inappropriate the situation is, we always think a woman is interested if she’s nice to us. Ha!
Teddie says
I am tending to lean a little on the side with Fiona and the others who are uncomfortable with men who’ve had tons of experience, but I think it’s for a different reason. I don’t judge the men who’ve slept all over town, but I would never want one to settle down with. My reasoning is this: If he’s been with a hundred women, then how on earth could I ever expect to maintain his interest for any length of time? It’s a big let-down for me. I know I’ll never be the “best” at anything if he’s had so many others to compare me to, so why bother? I know it’s just a matter of time before he gets bored and goes off to seek the sexual excitement that he’s addicted to. I think most women like to feel special in their long-term committed relationships (I know I do), and I just don’t see how that’s possible when you’re just the current “flavor of the month.” I would prefer to commit to a man who’d had some experience, but not so much that he can’t remember your name. I’ve tried dating a couple of players and get really tired really fast with being called by the wrong name or arguing with them about things we never did together. That sex you had in the Eiffel Tower wasn’t with me, dude. I think I’d remember if I’d been out of the country before.
Fiona says
Karmic, I am not promiscuous but I suspect I have a lot more dating experience than you. You keep telling yourself that you are just so wonderful to men that you convert one night stands into relationships and I will keep having the common sense to avoid them. At the end of the day I don’t want to be in a relationship with a non-exclusive man which I call cheating. You and I are very different people. Would a man prefer to be with a woman who is so cool that she is fine with him giving her nothing much and sleeping with other women? Maybe but he doesn’t care about her much does he? I don’t see him marrying that woman and I don’t want to put up with that crap.
I fully understand that men want sex. I respect men who have sufficient self control to only pursue women where they see potential for something more than just sex. Whether it works out later down the line, no-one can say and I don’t hold that against men. I continue to believe that men who only see women as good for sex are total cads so we will just have to agree to disagree.
nathan says
Aisling – for the record, during my mid20s, I was celibate for a good three year stretch. Since then, I have also had multiple periods of six months or more. I’m definitely not someone with a long list of partners in my past. I just don’t think it’s particularly moral that I’ve done this, nor do I think it’s particularly not moral that some folks choose to have lots of sex with different partners.
In my view, it’s more about practicalities, and the fact that I’m not really built for sex without love, or a lot of like anyway. It’s also less messy to choose celibacy. You reduce the potential drama quotient to zero.
Fiona says
Tom, you lack empathy which is probably what allows you to continue to acting like a cad. I have had my heart broken several times, got up and tried again and again and have now had so much heartbreak from men that I am done. You clearly have no idea what that feels like. I still think I am lot less of a loser than a man who hasn’t ever tried to find love.
Trey says
@Fiona. I’ve had my heart broken too and am scared senseless it may happen again. However after some of the pain dissipated and some of the anger left me I started reading and reflecting on my role in my heartbreak. (I think people who fail to do so miss one of the greatest opportunities and gifts the pain of a broken heart can give us, that is, the opportunity for personal growth and self reflection.)
I stepped out of the victim role and took accountability.
My ‘player’ met me at my best. In our 12 month journey I became a shell of what I was and who I am. His behaviours left me full of self-doubt and low self-worth initially HOWEVER I am the person who allowed this to happen… I allowed him to slowly modify my behaviour. I look at this now as the most beautiful gift he could have given me at that point of time in my life. If was not lacking in my sense of self, this couldn’t have happened.
His behaviour, or should I say, how I reacted to his behaviour, has shone a light on areas of myself I was lacking in. I didn’t love myself enough to say “no, this isn’t acceptable” or to move on, or to drop him like a hot potato. I had to sit back and acknowledge this. I had to sit back and ask myself why I ALLOWED THIS TO HAPPEN. I had to reassess my thoughts about myself and the place I hold in this world. I had to FORGIVE myself and stop the self-directed anger at allowing this to happen so I could stay loving and kind and feminine. I forgave him because he was only doing what he felt he needed to to make himself happy, he is not responsible for nor beholden to me regarding my personal happiness or sense of self.
This won’t happen to me again, not because I’m scared or angry or prickly regarding me but because I’ve worked on myself to the point where I love me again, love myself enough to know I won’t participate in this type of relationship dynamic again and TRUST MYSELF IMPLICITLY to recognise it if it comes across my path again.
I’m going out into the dating world with more trust in the magnificence of what a man is. I love men MORE because of my painful experience, not less. I can step out into the world of men confidently because I have taken the blinkers off regarding MYSELF and stepped up to fill in my own blanks, accept my own needs, acknowledge my weaknesses and take steps to overcome them. I took the focus of “what the man did to me” and switched it to “why did I let that happen?”
I have so much confidence in myself now I’m not playing or seeing myself as the victim in my relationship. I’m trusting in my own instincts. I remember again my value and have again my self-worth restored. This happened because of me, not because of the way a man did or didn’t treat me.
I can’t wait for the next man who catches my eye to come along. I love men. But first and foremost I love my “player” who showed me where the cracks were in me that needed to be fixed and healed. (If he came along again, I doubt he could handle me.)
ScottH says
I watched the movie Gaslight over the weekend and kept thinking to myself that Paula was letting herself be victimized. I kept wondering when she was going to wake up and take control of her life back- stop letting him treat her like that. I know how seductive they can be because I’ve been seduced too but I love your line: “I stepped out of the victim role and took accountability.” Accountability is empowering. Take the power. Good for you! And as I’ve read the comments of people on other blogs (like BR), I kept thinking that these people were stuck in the victim mode and needed to start claiming what is truly due them out of self respect. What is that quote about how we teach people how to treat us?
I keep reflecting back on my last relationship and wondering if she knew that she was inviting me to get up and leave by the way she treated me. Based on certain things she said, I really think she subconsciously wanted me to run. There were so many times that I should have run but didn’t, out of a lack of respect for myself. She finally did the dirty work and disappeared. I won’t put up with that again. I deserve better.
Trey says
@ScottH.
Agreed; taking accountability is the key but NOT an easy thing to do. However once done, it is the best thing and there’s no going back in any area of your life
I’d love to see an AList remake of the Gaslight movie. It could be done incredibly well in this day and age and it’d serve as a big educational eye-opener for so many of us dating in this day and age.
ScottH says
One of my favorite quotes: ”
Meanwhile, here’s a hypothesis I think is deeper: I alone am responsible for nurturing self-respect. Deeper because, in the end, I can’t prevent people from messing with my happiness. Certainly not if I’m willing to risk actually loving those people. But no one — not even my beloved — can mess with my self-respect. Only I can betray my commitment to self-respect.
When you bring abiding self-respect to the work of marriage, the equations change. Marital dialogues and negotiations no longer begin with something you need from the beloved; rather, lf encounters happen because of something you have first claimed for yourse— in self-respect. I deserve to be loved. I deserve to be cherished. I deserve to be Number One in your life. I expect to regularly see evidence of your stake in my happiness.
Or, said conversely, only you can decide how much thoughtlessness, blithe selfishness, casual dismissal, cavalier disregard, silence, sneering contempt, or outright hostility you will tolerate before you speak up, or, if necessary, leave — in service to self-respect.” Steven Kalas
Karmic Equation says
Beautifully said, Trey.
What you wrote is what I’ve been writing on this blog for a long time, only not as “nicely”, so my message was lost.
I’m glad you came along to deliver the message in a way most people are more willing to accept.
Trey says
@Karmic. Thanks for the comment love. Greatly appreciated and know I’ve really loved reading your contributions throughout this thread too.
I wonder if it’s too hard for some to take personal accountability because doing so can be accompanied with the anger & pain being directed inwardly and it doesn’t feel good at all. It’s safer and easier to direct the anger & pain outwardly because it keeps a person ‘in a safe zone’. It is the definition of being a victim and being a victim in life leaves you powerless as ScottH said – there’s no moving forward when you’re powerless and can’t look at yourself truthfully. Being accountable for yourself is also what separates the Men & Women from the Boys & Girls in life, IMO.
The hardest part when I took accountability was to stop hating myself for my perceived stupidity and acknowledge how badly I’d let myself be treated. I had to acknowledge that I let him modify my behaviour to fit his comfort zone, acknowledge my wants and needs were not outlandish as he tried to programme me to believe and remind myself I was not wrong for having them in the first place. I let him change my thoughts about what I wanted, needed and deserve. This won’t happen again.
I felt like an idiot and hated myself deeply for a while then remembered I’m a really awesome individual and what I wanted was not outlandish at all – I just wanted love, he would come around for a top up, receive this from me and take it back into his life; I just didn’t receive it from him and he didn’t share his ‘feel-good aura’ with me, just others around him. I would still support him from a position of friendship if he approached me again – he just wouldn’t get any of the icing on the cake anymore. That’s sacred to me and will be treated as such.
I had to learn to forgive myself for the role I played and I didn’t find that easy as I’m a shrewd, intelligent and intuitive lady normally. I had to remind myself that I’m one of the kindest, accepting and patient people i know. I am a valuable lady. (This is what drew him to me in the first place.) BUT…I saw a clear pattern where I show this kindness and acceptance to people around me (friends, family, colleagues & acquaintances) but I wasn’t showing myself any of this love. “A big thank you to my player here” – this is another of the patterns I learnt about myself after my experience with him. How long would this have gone on for if I hadn’t been with him????
A few other things I acknowledged;
1. I truly loved this man. I still do. He has some of the most amazing qualities and characters I’ve ever seen in a man, he lit up my world at the time and showed me how much better my life could be. But I’m responsible for lighting up my own world and creating it now.
2. I had to also see clearly that as much as I loved him feelings of anxiety and unworthiness surfaced when I didn’t see or hear from him for a period of time. I felt I must be lacking if his interest was waning. And you know what, I did lack at the time. I lacked confidence, worthiness and self love. However, these are not things that come externally, they come from inside. So once again, “thank you Mr Player”.
(I do wish I’d had these epiphanies with him and was able to work on myself while we were together but I had to leave the relationship to see things clearly. So be it. This makes me incredibly sad but I try not to wallow anymore and I had to do what I had to do at that point in time. I feel if he saw me again, now, he’d try to re-initiate a relationship but I’ve taken off the rose coloured glasses and see things for what they were too – in a non arrogant way, I don’t think he’s good enough for me now.)
3. I had to see that his inconsistencies with me were not healthy or acceptable – he’d lure me in, I became vulnerable again, we’d share physical/emotional/intellectual intimacies and then he’d disappear on me…. This happened over and over and over again. Scared that I’d lose him completely I wouldn’t speak up for myself. I allowed him to silence me.
4. After I ended things finally it took a while but I also saw that when I directed hate and anger towards him I felt worse about myself, not better. I now continue to see clearly my time with him – I will not forget or ignore the bad experiences I had with him but I send him ‘love’ when I think of him now not hate and anger (which is really just masking fear) and I feel better about myself.
I forgive him too.
Grace Pamer says
Fiona, please don’t give up, please, please, please, please. I know how hard it must be but you never know what is around the corner. Don’t let the hard hearted win. If you are someone who invests in other people, who care’s for others and their problems you will more readily find love than any of the people who have broken your heart. Don’t give up, I promise from dealing with 1,000’s of emails on these subjects, that people do and always will end up finding a lover when they least expect it. The important thing is to keep believing in yourself.
Big love
Grace
Karmic Equation says
@Fiona
As long as you blame others and argue like a girl (change the focus of an argument you’re losing by introducing new criteria never mentioned before) — you’re going to drive men crazy. You win. I agree that you are better off alone than inflicting your victimhood on some poor unsuspecting male. They don’t deserve it.
Good luck, Fiona. Peace out.
Tom10 says
Fiona
Sorry I didn’t mean to imply anything about actually being a loser — it was just mentality in general I was referring to.
I do know what it feels like to be heartbroken, but you’re right, it only happened once so I don’t know what it feels like for it to happen repeatedly.
I guess we’ve stated our positions fairly well so. I can only wish you good luck again.
Fiona says
Karmic, I can only assume you don’t talk to men the way you just wrote to me…
Evan Marc Katz says
@Fiona – I’m going to intervene in this little spat because it’s annoying me.
You should pay close attention to what Karmic and Tom10 are saying. Based on their posts, they have high self-esteem, they understand the opposite sex, they have boundaries and they make decisions based on reality. Your posts indicate a true lack of understanding of men, women, and sexuality. All you seem to suggest is that you’re a victim and that men use you and discard you. You completely ignore the millions of happy relationships out there, dismiss men who search for sex and find love as bad or wrong, and conclude that the only answer is to give up on love.
In other words, you may be a very nice, bright and attractive woman, but you’re not a reliable narrator or source of wisdom for my readers. I would recommend that you invest in a therapist and stop reading/posting on this blog. Your posts mostly speak for yourself and they’re really quite a downer. Like everyone else, I do wish you the best of luck in the future, but this blog is clearly not the answer for you, since you’re so dismissive of the people who seem to know the most about dating/relationships.
Still-Looking says
Teddie @ 140
You stated that you don’t want to be with a man who has slept with a large number of women because you are afraid “it’s just a matter of time before he gets bored and goes off to seek the sexual excitement that he’s addicted to.”
Teddie, I’m a serial dater on a quest for the right woman. I don’t know the number of women I’ve slept with but once I begin a relationship with someone I’ve always been faithful. When I find Ms. Right it is highly unlikely that she will be the smartest, most personable, prettiest, etc., lady I’ve ever been with. I also doubt she will be the the best sex partner I’ve ever had. This isn’t saying that she won’t be smart, personable, pretty, and great in bed — just not the best in each of those categories. What is important is that she will have that special mix of qualities that makes me realize that I want to spend the rest of my life with her.
I’m not addicted to sex and I don’t think the vast majority of the population is either. I have an active dating life / sex life now but when I find Ms. Right I will be more than happy to be only with her. The prettiest girl wasn’t the one for me. The smartest girl wasn’t the one for me. The wildest sex partner wasn’t the one for me. If you were my Ms. Right you would be the one for me, regardless of whether I’ve slept with 50, 100, or 200 women.
Ruby says
There are men who are like Still-Looking, and the there are the commitmentphobes for whom no one ever seems to measure up, no matter how smart, how pretty, how fun, or how sexual they are. I think this is a real phobia, and it seems rampant these days.
Still-Looking says
Ruby@150
I’ve known many women who never find a partner that measures up. I think all of us are somewhat scarred from past relationships and don’t want to make another mistake but I think the bigger problem isn’t commitment phobia, rather it is the sheer number of potential dates. When the options seem limitless, one must have a sincere desire to settle down.
Still-Looking says
Sorry for the double-post but Susan61 recently posted this great comment:
In today’s cornucopia of choice and the ostensibly ready availability of hot, young, nubile women (including fantasy women on free internet porn sites)… there is…hmm… always_the_possibility of someone younger, prettier, with bigger breasts, longer legs, shinier, longer hair, heck, maybe she has a PhD but she’s a downright whore in the bedroom.
GUY (let’s say, divorced, in his late 40s): I mean, this woman I”m dating is pretty great….but…she’s only two years younger than me. And she’s kind of short. Sometimes she just takes too long to get ready and has trouble making decisions. But I like her…a lot. Then again, her breasts aren’t quite as round or firm as I like, and I think I spotted a couple of gray hairs. And she actually still has some pubic hair. Maybe there’s a better, younger woman with an unlined face, softer skin, flat stomach with hard abs but nice big perfectly shaped breasts who is also an accomplished yogini, with um…preferably no pubic hair. (It would be cool if maybe she had all of her hair removed permanently by laser so I won’t have to deal with that.) A tattoo would be pretty exciting, maybe she has a tramp stamp. THAT would be hot. Hey…maybe she even has a trust fund. That would be cool. This girl I’m dating doesn’t have a trust fund. She would never get a tattoo. She’s really cool, and a great girl but…. Why settle for just ONE really great woman (like the one I’m dating) with so many POSSIBILITIES of other sex partners at my fingertips? Yeah, even though the sex with this girl I’m dating is pretty good, and we do have fun together, and even a lot to talk about….I can’t give up the possibility of someone much younger, and much hotter. My buddies would be so jealous if I could land a babe like that. Yeah, I have to get out of this relationship. Even though we do have good and regular sex, I am pretty sure I can do better. i saw this super hot chick in her late 20”²s on OKCupid…
Jenna says
Karmic,
Once again, interesting insight. I know for a fact that I’m a special girl unlike most girls a guy could date, and have better “girl game” than most (I don’t mean game in a manipulative sense, just an understanding of how to flirtatiously tease a guy, be pleasant, playfully put him in his place when needed, show appreciation, not chase (but do initiate contact once in awhile in a cool way), have my own life and generally don’t get clingy, etc etc) but I’m still baffled as to why I’ve been single for so long despite my efforts.
That’s why I struggle with those messages conveyed by you, Katarina, even Evan, about being the kind of girl that a guy wouldn’t want to leave … everyone tells me I’m a cool girl, I’m gorgeous, blah blah, but I’m not meeting men who are moved enough to commit unless they are less attractive than me (so much so that I can’t bear the thought of kissing them even on our 2nd/third date), too old (like 10-20 years!), or just have nothing in common with my values and lifestyle. There’s really not much more I can learn from reading dating advice that I haven’t already heard before and understand. It feels as though men think I’m hot and fascinating and adventurous, then get distracted by that into dating me for a month or two even when they may not have the time because they’re starting a business/may not think we’re ultimately compatible/may not be relationship oriented anyway. One guy who to my astonishment treated me we were headed toward a relationship for about five weeks, then when push came to shove said he wasn’t looking for anything long term, said, “I didn’t want to miss out on knowing you!” when I asked why he kept asking me out, then. He just thought I was so cool he couldn’t resist and thought I was in the top tier of women out there (we did stay friends – he’s too emotionally immature and experienced for a real relationship, as I learned, but he continues to think I’m one of the coolest people he’s ever met). It starts to depress me – getting penalized for being too cool?!?
Ruby says
Still-Looking #152
Well, having a multitude of options – or thinking that there’s someone better right around the corner – can contribute to commitment-phobia. Also, some men look for flaws as as a way of avoiding commitment. Why compromise if there might be a better option out there? I’m sure that women aren’t immune to “the grass is greener” mentality, but it does seem rather rampant in many men.
Ruby says
BTW, Susan61’s post was spot-on!
Fiona says
Evan,
I realise that this won’t be posted but for the record I find what you have written to be insulting to me in the extreme. Tom has high self esteem. He knows nothing about relationships and plenty about selfish sex.Karmic represents a small minority of women. She is clearly messed up in a relationship with a man who was not exclusive in the beginning and will cheat again. As for lack of reality, my reality represents the reality of the vast majority of single women my age. Try looking at the research in the daily mail conducted by a UK university about how they felt used and worthless after sex or try talking to women who have been there time and time again as I do because most women feel used and hurt by men at this age. I have spoken to a counsellor for months who said they see more and more women feeling this way in a sexualised society. Apparently what I am feeling is not abnormal although I no longer think that I am worthless. I will stop reading and posting but it would do no harm for you to consider that there is more than one side to things and that you may not always be right. I understand women and sexuality very well. I fail to see why men why men do not despite the evidence that it drives women crazy – not that I condone suicide threats, bogus pregnanies and stalkers…
Soul says
To some extent, I have to acknowledge that, as Fiona, Tom10 is not the type of individual that I admire. He and me do not have the same values. I would not like to be in his shoes, and if I had a daughter, I would not like her to mess up with him. But at least he is honest and he gives us an insight on what some men think.
But the good news is, Fiona… you will recognize this kind of men, if you just take the time to OBSERVE them…. long enough….Please be assured that there is a way to avoid them, and that you do not have to accept non-exclusive relationships or casual sex. Nobody is advocating that here.
I have never had sex without a commitment to exclusivity first, and I will never consider to have sex with a guy who is seeing other people, or with a guy who is not (at least potentially) looking for a long-term relationship. I am nothing like Karmic (although I do not judge her, if her lifestyle suits her).
I am not the coolest chick in the world…I have my own personality and I o not accept flaky people, not even at the beginning of a relationship.
Also I have never done internet dating (sorry Evan, you know I really appreciate most of your pieces of advice, and they have been helpful for me 🙂 ). I do not have any interest, nor do I have time for that; I’d rather read a good book, or post on this blog. I am pretty sure lots of players (like Tom10, who sure seems to be a honest player, but a player still) use the internet to “hunt”…. not my thing.
And still I found a good man. Or he found me….However, I have lower standards than you in terms of “externals” and, if I am with a guy with integrity and if I choose to give him a chance, I am not afraid of getting hurt…I just want to choose quality people…if they hurt me, so be it…i will cry and I will pray and…I’ll get better and I’ll try again!!!!! There are lots of good men around Fiona! Do not worry!!! Change your opinion on what makes a quality man a little bit, and keep the faith….
Oh! for the record, I am not saying you will find Mr. Right tomorrow: I was single for almost 5 years (absolutely no sex for 5 years, can you believe it!!!!!!??? so I know what it is to feel lonely, and I know where you are coming from). Like you, I was scared because I was in my 30s, but I kept the faith and I sticked to my (realistic) non-negotiables. I am happy. I am proud of myself. I have never felt used in my life (and hope it will never happen).
But you have to risk being hurt if you want to love and be loved…
Laya says
My boyfriend and I have talked extensively about our past relationships and sexual experience. He has apparently been called a player and/or a user by women he has dated. He recalls because it made him feel bad about himself and guilty. He told me that he did not use them but that he did not attribute the same meaning to sex as they did…to him sex was part of dating, the enjoyment of dating and learning about each other (pretty much what Evan says). These women became angry when he no longer wanted to date them. They attributed the reason why he didn’t want to date them was because he was done using them. He said it was because he wasn’t feeling a connection. To all those women, like Fiona, if you have accused men of being players or users, keep in mind that you can be inflicting pain on men who are genuine but are pragmatic about dating…men who enjoy dating in all aspects but in the end they won’t stay in a relationship or dating situation if they’re just not that into you.
As for my relationship with my boyfriend, he told me that I am the love of his life and that I am so different from other women. I would say I resemble Karmic in many ways…my mind set about dating, my love of men and because of my attitude towards sex. I understand men’s drive for sex because as all of my boyfriends have told me, I have the highest sex drive of any woman they have known. While I have never had a one nightstand or hooked up with random men at clubs or bars, I have gotten in relationships knowing that the men were far more interested or loved me when I did not love them to engage in monogamous sex. I too have been accused of using them (a few of my boyfriends and dating partners) for sex. One boyfriend actually tried to withhold it to see if the relationship lasted. Sex is so important to me that when in a relationship I see sex as a duty to each other…there is no I don’t want to have sex because I’m not in the mood, got a headache or we just had it this morning. I do it even if I’m not feeling up to it (which is truly a rarity) and he does too.
As for my player boyfriend, he just officially moved in with me after putting his home for rent and jokes all the time that I need to “put a ring on his finger already”. By the way, this so called player boyfriend who has been accused of using women for sex also jokes that he is my sex slave (no, nothing kinky) because my sex drive exceeds his substantially. I have no sympathy. It’s a duty!
Ruby says
Laya #158
To each his own, and I’m glad things are working out for you, but the fact that your boyfriend has had this issue with several women he’s dated says more about him than it does about the women, don’t you think? Just how many times does someone have to have sex before realizing that they are not “feeling a connection”? Is a “connection” just about sex? As far as “using women” goes, well, he’s not going to admit to you that he did use them! If he was the dumper, then how are the women who got upset with him “inflicting pain” on him? I also don’t know how old your guy is, but timing and readiness are also big factors for many people, and especially for men. I hope your man is relatively young, because otherwise, you might have a problem.
Joe says
It sounds to me like Fiona has trouble separating emotion and logic.
Tom10 is a cad for telling women up front that he’s not looking for anything serious, and then having consensual sex with them?
IIRC she told a story about a guy who liked both her and another woman, and she told him he should go with the other woman–and she was pissed at him when he did it.
Ruby says
Sorry for the double posting, if Laya’s boyfriend really feels that he did nothing wrong, then he has nothing to feel bad or guilty about, right?
Laya says
Ruby, I would have to disagree with you on your statement of…
“but the fact that your boyfriend has had this issue with several women he’s dated says more about him than it does about the women, don’t you think?”
I believe it’s a difference in how women and men interpret the dating events and how they make meaning of it. My boyfriend dated women seeking a relationship but when he didn’t feel that there was an emotional connection that would lead to love, he ended it. Could he have ended it sooner at times, probably. The woman he dated right before me accused him of using her. They dated her for over a month. He slept with her 3 times. They were not exclusive. He then met me. He ended it with her. Her version was that he used her. The reality was that he met someone (me) with whom he did feel the connection. A month into our relationship, we were exclusive – he took his profile down. She has checked on him on linked-in since probably seeing that soon after he took his profile down.
I think women are quick to blame men for dating failures. It’s easier to say he’s a player, a jerk or user then to face the reality that he wasn’t that into your personality for some reason. I know that I have hurt men before too. Dating is a hurtful business, no doubt. Ultimately it’s imperative for women to gain insight to things about our personality that is hindering us from having the relationship we want instead of automatically blaming men as a whole.
Mel says
My boyfriend dated women seeking a relationship but when he didn’t feel that there was an emotional connection that would lead to love, he ended it. Could he have ended it sooner at times, probably. The woman he dated right before me accused him of using her.
hmmm my ex may of excused me of doing the same thing. I think that’s fair what you’re ex did, but maybe I’m biased. Isn’t that what dating and relationships are about, taking the time to get to know each other to see if you fit? It takes time to see if you fit. I know I took a bit longer breaking up with my ex, mainly because I wanted to give it a good chance and make sure I wasn’t been too judgemental. Takes time to process behaviours.
I don’t think your boyfriend was a player at all, unless he handled these women in an undignified manner, like just disappearing or treating them like shit…and that’s not really even a player. That’s just a guy who doesn’t know how to be mature.
Soul says
Evan:
i do not know what you think, but I am curious… It seems to me that there should be 2 types of dating advice for women:
Type A: One type for the women who do not mind having sex outside of an exclusive relationship
Type B: Another type for women who need some type of commitment before having sex (exclusivity at the very minimum).
It seems to me that your advice work perfectly for Type B (which I am), but now I am beginning to doubt? do you think there is a difference? Do you think type B is less likely to find Mr. Right altogether? I guess it is related to this thread, and to your thread “it is related to the men look for sex and find love”. Can men actually find love before having sex, even if they were indeed looking for sex in the first place?
Evan Marc Katz says
@Soul – It’s really the same advice.
If you can handle sex outside commitment, you’re increasing your odds of men disappearing. But if you can handle it, then handle it. Good for you.
But since most women can’t handle the consequences of the “fuck and run” guy, I tell them to play it cool and see if he’s interested in being a boyfriend instead of just sex. This may happen in three dates or in six weeks, but by the time they have sex, he’s already offered to be exclusive. This advice works like a charm – weeding out the guys who think they deserve to get laid and ensuring that the right guys stick around.
Laya says
Ruby, my boyfriend is a good guy who does not seek to hurt other people, intentionally or unintentionally. So when someone accuses him of maliciously using them, it seems natural that one would feel bad about that even if they don’t feel like they have done something wrong. He has a conscious.
I’ll be honest that after my original post, I was bracing myself for a thrashing from women on this board for using men in my own way. But what I did get was seeing the wrong with men (a confirmation that indeed my boyfriend is a user). I think if women are bent on thinking men are the enemy, I just don’t know what more to say. Women don’t have it easy but men sure don’t have it easy either.
Katarina Phang says
Fiona and other women who think like her, men eventually want what we want. However, men are so different to women in that men will safeguard and enjoy their freedom first before settling down with anyone. So, if a man isn’t in the headspace to look for love or be ready for relationship, it’s not gonna be the first and foremost in his mind and he is not necessarily bad for not having the same agenda as ours.
He still wants and needs to date because he still needs female companionship. And a lot of them will be very honest with you from the get-go.
If a woman expects a man to think and act just like her and fault him when he doesn’t, she is adopting a victim mentality and as such she will never be able to learn the rope on how to inspire a man to commit.
I am with Laya in my attitude about sex. I never feel used just because I have sex with a guy and it doesn’t lead to relationship.
Soul says
I really appreciate that you took the time to answer me! Merci Evan 🙂
m says
@Rampiance 131 –
“RW @ 111 and anyone else who has noticed that men (players or not) who are pushy are not good in bed ~~ the two observations are related.
A man is pushy when he’s desperate or when he’s inconsiderate or when he’s out of sync with the woman. Desperation: it’s all about him and his gratification, not hers Inconsiderate: he doesn’t think about her satisfaction, maybe because it hasn’t occurred to him, maybe because he doesn’t care Out of sync: he doesn’t know how to connect with a woman at the level that it takes to be sexually satisfying to her, or he’s just not on the same wavelength she is
So I would recommend pushiness about sex as a signal to back away from a man.”
If people — well, women in particular (although also men who are legitimately looking for a real relationship) — only take one thing from this looking-like-it-will-be-multiple-hundred-comment thread, imo it should be this.
Karmic Equation says
@Jenna
Unfortunately, being cool is not the same as being so different as to be unforgettable, or
key to being a girl a guy can’t leave. It can be a PART of being unforgettable, but it’s not
the key.
I think there are a few qualities that make me unique…
1) I have no insecurities. I really love who I am. The worse things you can say about me is
that I snore (I’m mortified by this, but nothing I can do about it, so I accept it) and am a
lousy housekeeper.
2) I have a benevolent view of men and genuinely like them as human beings. I don’t think
that men are out to hurt us. They are thoughtless at times, but they are not consciously
malevolent, imo. This benevolence and genuine goodwill comes through in my thoughts,
actions, and conversations with men.
3) At the beginning of a relationship, I NEVER EVER EVER initiate contact. When I was getting to know my bf, before any sex had taken place, but he was in hot pursuit, there was a day where I just longed to hear from him. I was literally sick with the desire to contact him. What did I do instead? I put my phone down, it was 6pm at night, and I made myself take a nap, because if I stayed up, I would have texted him for sure. Luckily, at 742pm I was wakened by a text, from him. We exchanged pleasantries, but I said I had plans that night (my plan was just to stay away from him!). He thought I probably had a hot date, I wanted him to think that. Most women would have made contact, justifying it as “I don’t want to play games.” Sounds like a good justification, but in my view, that’s just not exerting self-control that’s needed at that stage of the relationship to make a man “miss you.” This is really key to a man falling in love with you. “Women fall in love in a man’s presence but a man falls in love in a woman’s absence.” – This is so true. I did this all my life without knowing that’s what I was doing, creating that “missing you” feeling in a guy.
4) Like Laya and Katarina, I never feel used if I have sex with a guy and it doesn’t turn into a relationship. In fact, I actually use sex to determine if a guy is “relationship-worthy.” In my opinion, sex is easy, relationships are hard. So why would I want to waste my relationship prowess on a guy who’s bad at sex. Lol.
Fusee says
@Karmic Equation #136:
Although as you know I operate differently than you regarding physical intimacy, exclusivity, and commitment, I completely agree with your message on how to relate to men in general. I think your advice is spot-on but got unfairly rejected because it was delivered together with your stated preference for uncommitted sex, which many women despise. I think that some of the women on this thread would benefit from suspending judgement on casual dating and adopt your recommendation, no matter what their preference is regarding when to engage in physical intimacy. Those two topics are unrelated.
I personally do not date casually and would not choose for myself a life partner with too diverging values on this topic, but I find no need to pass judgement on people who have different preferences, who are honest about them, and choose compatible and consenting partners for their casual sexual activities. However as Tom10 wrote @126, women not having to understand men’s needs and dating tactics in their teens and twenties end up at a disadvantage in their thirties when they keep believing that men want the same thing they want. That’s why Evan’s service is priceless and that’s why we have a responsability to educate our younger and naive sisters before they miss their prime years to secure what they will eventually want for later in life.
In any case, non-judgement, acceptance, treating people like human beings, etc, it sounds like a good foundation for any kind of relationship!
“I do understand that most women can’t have sex without commitment. But for a lot of men, especially men with options, commitment without his devotion first won’t be long-lasting.”
This comment of Karmic Equation @136 especially resonates with me as I do not quite buy into the whole concept of getting attached/desperate for a request of exclusivity/commitment as if it was some kind of Holy Grail. I mean, I absolutely need it as a basis for entering an intimate relationship, but I also need more than a simple agreement to not see anyone else. As she eloquently wrote, an agreement without any “devotion”, which I would translate as a genuine feeling of connection to you based on facts and not just chemistry, is kind of a foundation built in the sand.
I also agree with her comment on “being special”, and it connects really well with the new topic of “How do I stay sane while I wait for him to call”. It’s pretty obvious that we won’t bond emotionally with everyone, but I can’t recall any man that I have ever dated who did not want a relationship with me, even if in a couple of instances what was offered was going to be sex-based only and not very meaningful. I’ve never had only one or two dates, or even three. Can’t remember any man dating me for less than two months. So yes, I think women would also benefit from learning how to become One Of A Kind, and make men so attracted to them that they HAVE to see them again and get to know them. With or without sex, whatever float their boat. Such skill, ladies, give some serious leverage, to use Evan’s word.
@Soul #157: Looks like we followed pretty much the same path and avoided the same detours : )
Katarina Phang says
Karmic, you’re spot on! Men connect emotionally on the right attitude, not on looks or sex (though sex does help too but guys won’t stick around just for sex if a woman doesn’t make him feel good being around her).
A lot of women ruin the good things they have with a man who adores them -and whom they also adore- with an unrealistic expectation that he will know what to do with them only after a few months. Instead of enjoying the ride and the attention, their insecurities get the better of them and they begin to whine and nag about commitment as if the promise would make any different to the quality of the
ir young relationship.
They kill the blooming romance right of the bat and now what’s left? Starting all over again with a new guy only to make the same mistake. Very soon they will experience a drought of eligible candidates and instead of the fun they could have had, they’re living the quiet miserable manless existence and blame the men for that.
If you are not whole on your own (hence you need to hurry the men to commit), relationship won’t save you. Instead of one miserable person, there will be two now.
Fusee says
Sorry for double-posting, but I have to highlight and confirm the following quotes from Karmic Equation’s comment @169:
“Unfortunately, being cool is not the same as being so different as to be unforgettable.”
“I have no insecurities. I really love who I am.”
“I don’t think that men are out to hurt us. They are thoughtless at times, but they are not consciously malevolent”
“Women fall in love in a man’s presence but a man falls in love in a woman’s absence.”
AMEN!
Tom10 says
Soul
I don’t expect you to admire me — religious people normally don’t.
If I had daughters I would tell them to assume responsibility for their own sexuality — to enjoy it as part of life and to free themselves of all the societal, cultural, historical, and religious influences and just define it for themselves.
With this attitude they won’t be able to be ‘played.’ Surprisingly enough not every woman I’ve ever been with is at home crying about feeling used. I’m still on good terms with the vast majority of them, and whenever I meet them again they normally greet me with a smile or a hug.
I’m actually disappointed with you for stooping to insults.
Jenna
I feel really sorry for women in their late 20’s and early 30’s who are looking for serious relationships with men the same age. I have about 10 single male friends from 28 – 30 who are looking for serious relationships. They figure at our age that this will probably be the real deal — i.e. whatever woman they choose as a girlfriend now will probably be their wife in a few years time. Therefore as this might be the last woman they’ll ever have sex with again she has to be absolutely perfect. This distorted thinking puts undue pressure on them and they just end up saying ‘next’ again and again at the six-week mark.
I should really recommend they start reading this blog.
Michelle says
“If I had daughters I would tell them to assume responsibility for their own sexuality — to enjoy it as part of life and to free themselves of all the societal, cultural, historical, and religious influences and just define it for themselves.”
Sounds good in theory…wait til you actually have daughters, then come back and tell us how you really feel when a boy comes to pick up your gorgeous daughter for a date. I think fathers actually suffer more in this area because they know exactly what’s going on in that young man’s brain 🙂
Off topic, I know…these kinds of statements make me chuckle, as a parent of teenagers, boys & girls.
Overall, I think understanding and coming to terms with how man and how they think, and creating strong boundaries is the key. MOST men are not out to hurt anyone else, they are just living their lives to the best of their ability, just like women are. Relax and enjoy live, rather than getting all tied up in what hapeens if and in making a mistake. This is what life is all about, and playing it super safe is, well, boring.
Mickey says
Tom 10:
As long as you are up front about your intentions, I don’t see why anyone should have a problem with that.
If the situation were reversed, and a woman was up front with the same intentions, I don’t think anyone should have a problem with that, either.
If people disagree with your life choices, that’s one thing. But some of the vitriol thrown your way is uncalled for.
In the final analysis, doesn’t openness and honesty count for anything, or am I completely missing something?
Soul says
@Tom10:
1) I am not religious
2) I did not mean to insult you, I am sorry.
Tom10 says
Thanks Mickey and Joe.
Although I think everyone here is getting a bit hung up on the ‘upfront’ thing. Evan, Karmic and I all think that my obligation to be upfront about casual is equal to a woman’s obligation to be upfront about her intentions. I.e. if she doesn’t say she wants a relationship then I shouldn’t have to say I don’t; I just happen to be a very conscientious individual. Women should just be aware that many men like me see life as a party to be enjoyed, not necessarily a journey to be explored with someone.
Michelle
I realize I sound naïvely idealistic, but I’m determined to stick to this principle should the situation arise — the caveat being that they are over the age of consent of course. The closest I can apply this principle at the moment is with my younger sister: my friends always jokingly ask me if they can date her casually to see how I would feel. I tell them to go ahead as she’s an adult, is fully capable of making her own decisions and will have to deal with the consequences (she’s too clever for them anyway).
Soul
I inferred when you said ‘I will pray’ (#157) that you are religious. My bad.
As nathan (#130) said there is absolutely nothing noble — or ignoble — about remaining celibate for 5 years.
RW says
@Tom
You said “ignoble” and know what it means. <3 <3 <3 Hehehe…
Also respectfully disagree about your obligation to be upfront. The assumption, by public majority, is that people are looking for relationships when dating; that the purpose is to evaluate each other as long term mates. That is, unless otherwise stated, of course. I realize this is changing and the day may come very soon when the majority will prefer to remain single and use dating as a means to enjoy the company of the other sex for the short term. Until that day comes though most people operate under the assumption that the other party (man or woman) is looking for a relationship if things go well. If this is not the case, he/she should be disabused of that notion as early as possible. We’re not talking about compatibility here. She could be an amazing woman who would make a great wife but you’re simply not looking for a wife, no matter how perfect. Very fair as long as she knows that too. Same applies to women not looking for anything serious….I said “she” because I was speaking in the context of women you date.
Ruby says
Sure, people should be clear and upfront about their intentions. But the problem is that many people are deliberately vague about them. I’m talking about the guy who claims he wasn’t really looking for a serious relationship, but wants to see where things go with you because you’re such an amazing woman. Or the man (or woman) who isn’t sure of his feelings for you yet, but acknowledges that the best relationships can build slowly, and wants to explore things with you because you are so wonderful. Likewise, the woman (or man) who wants a serious relationship, but hopes that once you spend more time with her and get to know her better, you’ll become equally smitten with her.
One party is paying lip service to the desire to see things evolve and develop in the long-term, but really wants things to stay exactly as they are. The other is ready to accept the status quo in the short term, while hoping for a change in long-term potential. It seems to me that acting as much clarity and integrity as possible, whether it’s in your own personal best interests or not, is the key.
Karmic Equation says
@RW 178
Totally disagree. You need to re-read EMK #52 on this thread. You’re abdicating your own responsibility when you put the onus on the man to disclose; you have equal opportunity and responsibility to disclose, especially if you’re expecting a relationship to result from the sex..
@Ruby
Not sure where I read this, but it sure made me think differently about men and commitment…(Paraphrased)
“When a man marries, he’s giving up his dream so that a woman can realize hers.”
Think about that. When a man marries, he’s giving up his dream to have sex with lots of women AND he is inheriting a great responsibility, to provide for his wife and future children. This is a big thing. That’s why men take their time to find the right one. He’s giving up a lot and GAINING responsibility when he marries/commits.
How about for a woman? When she marries, she gets to have that special day she’s dreamed of all her life. She gets the house and the picket fence (figuratively if not literally). She GAINS the choice to not work. Have you ever heard a guy asking his buddy if he plans to keep on working after he gets married? NO. Because not working after marrying is not a choice for men.
Of course YOU want commitment as soon as possible, you get to realize your dreams. Asking a man to give up his is already a big sacrifice, and now you want himto do it on YOUR schedule, too? Really?
So please, give guys a break if they have a different timeline than you for commitment.
Ruby says
Karmic #180
Sorry, but i don’t think either sex “sacrifices” more after marriage. Women gain just as much responsibility after marriage. It’s not just about having a “special day”, and “white picket fence”. They often gain the responsibility of children as well, and most women today have to work outside the home, in addition to housekeeping responsibilities. Plus, increasingly, men do have the house-husband option, but taking care of the home and kids is still work.
I’m also not referring to the normal decision making process that both genders go through when choosing a partner. I’m talking about the problems that arise when both parties aren’t clear about their needs and desires, all too often deliberately so, or even with the intent to mislead.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Ruby – You’re having a hard time acknowledging that there’s a difference between men and women. We see it here all the time.
If men have partially defined themselves by their ability to sleep around with attractive women, asking them to give that up IS a bigger sacrifice.
It’s not that marriage is less responsibility for women than men. It’s that monogamy, for men, is usually a greater sacrifice for them than to a woman whose entire life goal has been monogamy.
This is something Karmic points out that you should calculate when you ask why he’s not settling down faster. He doesn’t WANT to. He ENJOYS his untethered single life. So for him to give up sex with a variety of women, it has to be a pretty special woman, and he has to be pretty darned sure. That’s why giving him 2-3 years to decide is reasonable.
Do you STILL disagree with me? Even though I’m TELLING you that this is true for a number of men?
Fusee says
@Karmic Equation #180:
I strongly believe indeed that for most men, offering a life-long commitment is a sacrificial gift. Therefore a man’s willingness to provide it deserves a special acknowledgement and the understanding that this (sadly, now rare) generosity deserves flexibility on a whole lot of “nice to have’s” that women may feel entitled to. Women who have a whole list of irrelevant requirements do not get it that if they want a man to ultimately marry them they will likely have to “marry down” (I do not like the expression but it’s to make a point) given the fact that the man already offers her the most precious gift ever: a life-long commitment.
This being said, let’s not make it look like men who eventually marry are heroes that deserve women to kneel at their feet in gratitude. First some men do desire commitment, even early on in their dating life, while some women resist it all their life. Maybe 10% of each gender do not follow their stereotype. Then, while it might be a big sacrifice for most men to make that special commitment, if they do end up making it to the right woman (an equally self-sacrificial woman), they will be benefiting a lot from the marriage, and become happier than if they had kept running on the dating hamster wheel.
So yes, most women instinctively desire commitment and get there very naturally, while most men do not, and therefore feel the need to date around until they find a deserving woman, and still work hard mentally and emotionally to get to a place of comfort around the idea of marriage. But when the pairing is solid, healthy, and compatible, their initial sacrifice pays off big time for men as well. There is a reason why men like Evan made the sacrifice, and why Tom10 will likely make it too when he will be ready to turn the sex diversity page of his life. When you want children, and when you want companionship in old age, a solid, healthy, and happy marriage is the path to joy for both genders.
“When a man marries, he’s giving up his dream so that a woman can realize hers.”
Might be true for the stereotypical american marriage to a stereotypical American woman, such as the kind of relationships portrayed in rom-com’s. But this quote could not be further from the truth as far as I’m concerned. My man will not give up any of dream on my behalf should he choose to marry me. If anything, in the last 17 months I’ve been supporting him on his path to realizing his life goals, and I’m preparing myself to huge sacrifices for him to progress further. He has indeed realized that life would be much harder without me in it. And since I do not dream of marriage or anything that ultimately depends on him, he does not have to take any responsability in realizing my dreams. His support will suffice. Similarly there is no expectation/sense of entitlement about stopping working and becoming some kind of spoiled princess. If we do choose to marry, we will both take a huge responsability in committing to the well-being of each other and we will both make serious sacrifices for one another. They will just be of different natures.
Karmic Equation says
@Fusee
First section, totally with you!
Second section. We’ll have to agree to disagree, yet again. Surprise, huh? LOL
The dream women have is to be married, be provided for (in most cases materially, but in your case emotionally) and have children. When a woman gets married, her dreams come true.
When a man marries, he kisses his dreams of varietal sex goodbye. He kisses his “unfettered” (love this term Evan!) life goodbye. Women want fetters, men don’t.
Upon marriage, tabula rasa to both parties. But up until that point, the men do the sacrificing and the women are getting exactly what they dreamed of.
Ruby says
EMK #182
But I’m not referring to any specific time frame, or saying that 2-3 years is wrong. I’m referring to both parties being honest with themselves and with each other. I’m talking more about the men who say they are seriously considering a woman, when they are really just stringing her along, not the men who do have serious intentions, but need time to process their feelings.
I agree with Fusee (#183).
Karmic Equation says
Sorry – need to amend my phrasing in 184
Upon marriage, tabula rasa to both parties. But up until that point, the men *are making the bigger sacrifice* and the women are getting exactly what they dreamed of.
Julia says
@Evan, I have to disagree with you. It might SEEM like a sacrifice to give up sleeping around but the truth is the vast majority of men don’t have the ability to sleep with hot chicks all the time and as they get older it dwindles. Men need to have realistic expectations just like women do.
nathan says
I have to laugh at this idea that a “man’s dream” is to sleep with countless women. For some men, this may be the case. But I’d like to think that men are – on the whole – much more complicated than simply our sexual needs. Entering a partnership tends to involve many dreams coming together. Some may not match up. Some may be sacrificed for the good of the partnership. But really, it’s about more than sex, usually a lot more. Sex is just an easy target in conversations like this, but staying fixated on differing sexual needs really doesn’t get at whether or not you and someone else are good partnership material or not.
Ruby, while I appreciate your desire for clearly stated intentions, I have to wonder if you want such things on YOUR timeline, as opposed to when they come more naturally. Which can be more nerve racking, but ultimately is the only true clarity. I notice that some women press really quickly for answers to questions that they’d never expect in other areas of their lives. After a month at a new job, would you truly say (and believe it for certain) “This is it! My lifelong career and workplace!” You might believe it, and then a year or two later, after you’ve gotten to know your co-workers and the organization, think completely differently. Happens all the time. I’ve falling in lust with several women in the course of my life. And the truth of the matter is that every long term relationship I have ever been in started off without that, with questions, uncertainty, and not a lot of clarity. I know I’m not alone. You can’t expect the truth to be revealed in a matter of weeks when the evidence is that it rarely happens that way.
Karmic Equation says
@Ruby 185
I’m talking more about the men who say they are seriously considering a woman, when they are really just stringing her along, not the men who do have serious intentions, but need time to process their feelings.
And how do you distinguish between the two? The man who ends up marrying was “serious” and the man who decides “no, not you” was not serious?
Fusee says
@nathan #188:
The blind spot about “intention” is that some people hear “expectation”. It’s not the same! Someone can have the intention to explore a dating prospect with the goal of discovering if the relationship has a chance to evolve towards marriage in a reasonnable timeframe, and it’s very different than expecting that person to marry them, regardless of the timeline.
Along the lines of your career analogy, I may start a new job with the intention of finding a permanent position if this is my life goal, and it does not mean I have the expectation that the company will offer me a permanent position or even that the job in question is pleasant enough for me to consider it for the longer term. However with such goal I would obviously only consider companies that would offer permanent positions, rather than wasting my energy on companies that only offer two-year contracts. Or internships : )
See the difference? An intention should not feel threatening to someone who has the same but needs plenty of time and experiences to know if it’s going to happen with that specific person. And the timeline is a question of compatibility, and ultimately of compromise.
Ruby says
Nathan
No, I’m not referring to one month. The relationships where a man is stringing a woman along tend not to last for more than a few months or a year, in any case.
Karl R says
Fusee said: (#190)
“I may start a new job with the intention of finding a permanent position if this is my life goal, […]with such goal I would obviously only consider companies that would offer permanent positions, rather than wasting my energy on companies that only offer two-year contracts. “
I’ve spent about 40% of my working life as a temp or contractor. It’s not my preference, but I don’t mind it terribly.
No matter how much I want a long-term position, I want to eat and pay the rent even more. I’ve taken two week and two day jobs before.
Seven years ago I was working two part-time temp jobs (supposedly 20 hours per week each, but it ended up being closer to 30 for one and 8 for the other). Neither employer expressed a desire for a full-time, permanent employee.
One of them has been my full-time employer for the last 4 years, and I’m earning at least triple what I was from the two part-time temp jobs.
Similarly, my marriage started out as a week-long fling.
Neither my job nor my marriage started out with even the intention of being something permanent. They met short-term requirements … and with time everybody involved realized the relationship (business or personal) suited everybody’s needs perfectly.
Ruby said: (#191)
“I’m not referring to one month. The relationships where a man is stringing a woman along tend not to last for more than a few months or a year, in any case.”
If you’re getting strung along, leave the relationship when it’s clear that it’s not meeting your needs/goals.
You can’t be strung along if you take responsibility for making sure the relationship meets your own needs. At worst, you’ll have a period where you’ll be undecided as to whether it will meet your needs.
Helen says
Karmic 184: “The dream women have is to be married, be provided for (in most cases materially, but in your case emotionally) and have children. When a woman gets married, her dreams come true.”
Um, no. For the longest time, I neither wanted to be married nor to have children. Now I’m married with children. Go figure. Hubby wanted both these things more than I. You just can’t generalize by gender like you did above.
Let’s not forget (and I hate to rehash, but apparently it’s necessary) the pan-European study that showed that married men live 1.7 years on average longer than single men, while married women live 1.4 years on average LESS than single women.
This study seems to make it clear from a health and quality of life standpoint that marriage is measurably better for men than for women. So again, to draw generalizations that marriage is good for women and bad for men is questionable, to say the very least.
I agree with nathan that it isn’t the sole purpose of men to sleep with countless women.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Helen – No one is claiming that the “sole purpose of men is to sleep with countless women”. If Karmic either said or implied that, I would agree with you.
But let’s not pretend that – on the whole – women desire casual sex as much as men do. Half of the posts on here are tales of heartbreak from women who slept with men and fell in love, even though the men were largely indifferent. So who is marriage a greater sacrifice for? Those men, or the women who want to be with them? That’s all Karmic and I are saying.
Not that men are “all about sex”, but that, in general, men prefer variety and women prefer monogamy. Not sure how many times I have to post this, but I’ll do it again.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sex-dawn/200908/who-destroys-the-marriage-cheating-husband-betrayed-wife-or-other-woman
To say that YOU’RE different because YOU never wanted marriage or kids or a man to support you doesn’t negate the greater point that women look for this more than men.
Still-Looking says
Julia @ 187 Nathan wrote “I have to laugh at this idea that a “man’s dream” is to sleep with countless women. For some men, this may be the case. But I’d like to think that men are — on the whole — much more complicated than simply our sexual needs.”
As a man, I agree with Nathan. A variety of sexual partners is enjoyable, however it is not a goal of mine nor of any single men I know to have indiscriminate sex with as many women as possible. That being said, when I do settle down I will be giving up the potential to have sex with many partners. A small sacrifice but a sacrifice nonetheless.
You stated “It might SEEM like a sacrifice to give up sleeping around but the truth is the vast majority of men don’t have the ability to sleep with hot chicks all the time and as they get older it dwindles. Men need to have realistic expectations just like women do.” I have to disagree with your assessment. I’m 50 years old and my last three dates were with women whose ages ranged from 32 – 40. Each of the ladies was very attractive and I slept with one of the three. I anticipate sleeping with the second lady on our second date and I will probably not have a second date with the third woman.
My realistic expectation is that I can go on dates every night of the week, if I choose to do so, and based on my dating history I can expect to have sex with the the vast majority of my dates by the second or third time we go out. Does this mean I have sex with a huge number of women? No – I only ask 10-20% of women out for a second date. If I wanted more sexual partners it would be easy – just ask more women out for a second date. I choose not to do so because if I’m not interested in a woman for a possible relationship, I’m not going to ask her out again just so I can get laid.
BTW – I’ve never known a man, regardless of age, who had difficulty finding women to sleep with.
Fusee says
@Karmic Equation #189: “And how do you distinguish between the two? The man who ends up marrying was “serious” and the man who decides “no, not you” was not serious?”
Nope, it’s not a matter of outcome. Either party can end the relationship at any point and that does not make them less serious or even a jerk, a user, a manipulator, or whatever. The difference between someone who is really seriously assessing their partner for marriage and the one who is (deliberately or not) stringing them along is their willingness to progress.
A relationship has to progress to stay alive. If the relationship has potential, both parties must find themselves further along in their level of intimacy, trust, and knowledge of each other a couple of months after their first date. They must have progressed further again a few months later. And they must know each other much better at the one-year mark. And after that it should keep progressing, and that will look differently depending on the people involved. Might look like talking about specific topics that one party might be nervous about for their future compatibility, might be living together, might be building their trust and love further, or resolving some conflicts, whatever. But it must progress, even if progress means bidding farewell at any point of the process, which will anyway be the most likely scenario given how few relationships have what it takes to progress towards marriage.
When the relationship slides into a status-quo, a place of comfort with no further progress towards resolving the question of marriage in one way or the other, it’s trouble for the party who is the most interested in getting to the ultimate commitment. It can feel like being strung along even if there was no intention to do so. However as Karl R wrote @192: “You can’t be strung along if you take responsibility for making sure the relationship meets your own needs”. And this is the responsability of the party who wants the most out of the relationship because the one who wants the least will stop when they have just enough. Hence asserting/reminding your intentions and gently encouraging further progress when things stall is necessary when you date someone who stops progressing once they have reached their happy status-quo, if what you want is a bit more.
Some men will lead their woman all the way from the first date to their wedding day with slow and steady progression. Evan did just that. Karl R seemed to have done just that as well, with a different timeline. Their women did not have to worry about their intention as they were crystal clear. If their ladies had brought anything up it would indeed have felt like unnecessary pressure. Unfortunately a decent number of men will stop leading as soon as the relationship meet their need, which usually is a sweet status-quo cohabitation, and forget about assessing their partner further. The guy might be open to more but not know how to get there, he might want to keep the status quo for a bit longer and get a feel for it before progressing further, or it might mean that there is no more on offer. Every option is legitimate but communication is needed to find out and respond accordingly.
Helen says
Evan, I am not interested in getting into a gender war here. You seem to be baiting me with the question of whom marriage is the greater sacrifice for, with the implication that the answer is men, because they desire casual sex more than women.
I never disagreed that men like casual sex more than women. In fact, I said as much in an earlier comment, 132, in this exact same thread. In other words, we agree on that point.
But that doesn’t mean that marriage is a greater sacrifice for men. Sex is not the be-all and end-all of life. The fact that married men live longer than single men bears that out more loudly than any proclamations about giving up casual sex. Longevity is regarded by every health official in the world as a general proxy of quality of life. This statistic is not meaningless.
But I will not be drawn into discussing what women sacrifice by becoming married, because it would be an argument in which sides are rushing to claim the role of “victim”, and would do credit to neither side. It seems that you missed the point of my earlier comment, which was a direct response to Karmic’s 184: “to draw generalizations that marriage is good for women and bad for men is questionable, to say the very least.” Scientifically, I don’t see how anyone can argue with that.
starthrower68 says
Helen, in today’s culture, I’m pretty sure sex is the end-all-be-all of life *wink and grin*. But I get where you’re coming from.
Evan Marc Katz says
Helen, your point is very strained.
Do you think any women truly think, when getting married: “Married women live 1.4 years less than single women. I think I’m going to dump this guy and live a longer, happier life?” Of course not.
So your point that marriage wears on women – and is therefore the cause of a premature demise, and, as such, should be a consideration for women’s “sacrifice” is kind of full of hot air.
Everyone compromises and sacrifices in a marriage. If you choose your partner well, hopefully, the sacrifice doesn’t feel that significant. But on a very simple basis, by the very nature of a lifetime of monogamy, it would seem that the gender that values sexual variety more would be making a bigger sacrifice. I’m not sure why this would be so difficult to process.
Katarina Phang says
Helen, what Evan means is SUBJECTIVELY, since a woman’s natural goal is monogamy/commitment (she has dreamed about it since she was 5 or something) and a man’s natural goal is preserving his freedom (and sexual freedom is the biggest component of it), when commitment happens -again SUBJECTIVELY- a man might feel like he has sacrificed something huge, bigger than what a woman sacrificed (she got what she always wanted and sexual freedom is rarely high on the list of female priority).
Objectively, though, we all know who benefits most from marriage. 🙂
marymary says
There is a big sacrifice that women need to come to terms with and that,s expecting high romance and passion within a secure monogamous relationship. I think this is huge. Huge like the iceberg that sank the Titanic.
i never wanted to get married, it sounded boring to see the same person every day. I was very independent and a loner who valued my space. But I didn,t want casual either. A dilemma that is often subconsciously resolved by getting into no hope relationships. They may not be rewarding but they hold no threat of permanence.
i,m sure many would like the benefits of singleness plus the benefits of marriage.
Well, you can,t have it all. every choice you make cuts down your options. And that applies to men and women. In the same way you can,t have two careers, or you can,t live in two places. Well, you could but it,s not worth the aggro.
i don,t mean this to be negative. I think most go through it and most come out the other side happy. I did and am in a loving relationship. people can and do change. I do maintain that we change ourselves though rather than others. I have no interest in having that much influence and control over another person. Maybe that lone wolf is still in me!
Jenna says
Women make a BIG sacrifice to get married because men oftentimes (Evan’s story is unusual and doesn’t apply) get to be with the girl they want and chose, while the girl has to settle.
It’s as Fiona said, that women have to marry down – men get to choose the girl they want, while women have to gingerly shudder at the unattractive, dweeby man who has chosen her and convince herself to like him because he’s a nice guy. Oftentimes, women will genuinely come to love the toad next to her; other times, she cheats or ends up a lousy gf/wife because she KNOWS he’s not the guy she wanted and she had to make a big sacrifice just to find commitment. I did that when I was younger, which was mean and irresponsible but a learning experience to never date down again.
That sounds cruel and awful, sorry, but it’s just my observation. Just take a look at the advice in the comments here sometimes – even if a woman is attractive, sweet and accomplished, she’s urged to date men who are ugly, fat, poor, and old – 10, 20 years older – just because women are supposed to go out with kind men who pursue them.
I understand you have to give people chances, and that no one should seek things in a mate they don’t have (average looking women can’t demand a cute guy), or can’t counter-balance with other important traits, but … women sacrifice an awful lot for commitment. Personally, I want commitment, but since getting it from any of the unattractive or incompatible or old men offering it is not worth it, I accept the consequences and will gladly stay single.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Jenna – What pure, utter nonsense.
“Marrying down” is entirely subjective. For many women, marrying down is choosing a man who makes less money. For many men, marrying down is choosing a woman who is less attractive. But, in real life, EVERYONE makes compromises. It would be literally IMPOSSIBLE for every person to marry someone “better” in looks, intelligence, education, kindness, money, etc.
So we make compromises. People like me make them consciously. People like you and Fiona fight all of them – insisting that any compromise is “dating down”.
Get over yourself.
No one has encouraged women to date men who are ugly, fat, poor and old. You can literally show me NO post where I advocate that.
So stop setting up straw man arguments, since they carry no weight here.
Finally, the implication that I DIDN’T get the girl I want and choose is not only ridiculous but insulting. Not just to me, but to anyone else who is wise enough to calculate the tradeoffs one makes in marriage. It’s like you don’t even comprehend that the man who marries a “hot chick” often regrets it because she’s selfish, narcissistic, and temperamental. Or that the woman who chooses the rich man often finds herself at home alone, while he’s on the road traveling, making money, and cheating.
Everyone makes tradeoffs, my dear. Not just women.
The ones who make smart ones are extremely happy with our choices. The ones like you complain that the world favors men. I suggest you join my team.
Evette says
Jenna at 190, I agree 100% and also, many of these old, fat, ugly men are NOT nice. They’re not or someone would happily date them. Many women appreciate a guy that treats her well. Many a man has won a woman over by consistently treating her well. But you have to bring something to the table, if not looks, money, alpha, sense of humor, then something and I recommend that something to be warmth, which sorry, many of these men that complain about women do NOT have.
Helen says
It seems that we are still arguing past each other, so there is no point in continuing. Some believe that marriage is mostly about monogamy and sex, and I see marriage as the sum total of so much more. I can’t change how others feel about marriage. And as I also said earlier, I’m not interested in either bashing men or painting women as victims. So let’s leave it at that.
Karmic Equation says
@Fusee
I love you. Thanks for the thoughtful reply, even though my question was meant to be sarcastic.
hespeler says
Jenna 202,
You’ve painted with too broad of a brush. There’s a flip side to every coin and I’ll point out two things which shoot holes in your assertion that women are the ones forced to date down.
First, it is women in fact who get to play out of their league much more than men do. This is because men value casual sex much higher than do women. Therefore, a more attractive man will sleeep with a woman he finds below his league just to get laid. Woman do not do this nearly as often (if ever).
Second, women from an evolutionary standpoint are programmed to be picky and most will not go on date 2 if they didn’t “feel it” with the guy, often leaving the guy to pursue his second or third choice.
The larger point here is that if someone decides to date down they do so because they are conciously willing to do so to forge a relationship. Gender is completely irelevant.
Then there’s the simple fact that if a man or woman feels as though he or she is forced to date below their league, it’s probably because that is all they can attract and they are probably overrating themself and their marketability.
Ruby says
Fusee #196
Great response, even if the question was meant sarcastically. The OP was talking about players and narcissists, and so am I. As we keep reading in this blog, there are way too many of them around. I’m not talking about average, nice guys, who I don’t believe fit the player/narcissist category even when they aren’t sure about a woman, and who are simply making an informed decision, and aren’t interested in leading anyone on.
Tom10 says
RW
Yes poor choice of words on my part.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree on being upfront so. I will continue to be upfront even though I think it’s being excessively considerate. You said that “the assumption…is that people are looking for relationships when dating”.
Maybe it would be a better idea for all of us to assume that everyone is looking for casual only, unless explicitly stated otherwise? That would save a lot of heart-ache and confusion.
Jenna and Fusee
“Women have to marry down”
As Barry said: so reality check.
It’s not so much that women have to marry down; rather they manage to date up in their teens and 20’s because of the male / female dynamics at that age. Women can easily have casual sex with men far out of their league, thus giving them the false impression that they’re in that league. The realization only kicks in their late 20’s and early 30’s when they look for long-term, that the various men they’ve been sleeping with for the last ten years were hoping for better themselves when considering their long-term partner.
Married couples are usually equal when all things are considered.
I paraphrase from “the rules revisited” that Karmic recommended:
“It’s really hard for men to find women in their own league, because those women are busy f*cking the men in the league above them, hoping for those men to commit.”
Karmic Equation says
@Jenna
It’s kind of no wonder you’re struggling to find a solid relationship. You’re misunderstanding the message.
No one said to date/marry someone you’re not attracted to.
We’re saying don’t be attracted SOLELY to exterior qualifications (income, looks, education, etc.) — but rather look for the interior qualities in a man you don’t find unattractive. There’s a subtle difference between “attractive” and “not unattractive” versus “not attractive” 🙂
Give a guy a shot if he doesn’t give you the heebie jeebies. If he does, don’t go out with him. Just don’t focus solely on the guys who make you swoon when you look at him. You can bet other girls are swooning and chasing him…and unless you’re the kind of girl he finds special, no good will come of that attraction.
I gave some thought to why I’m successful finding relationships with men. Wherever I go, I always notice men who notice me. Young, old, fat, bald, hot, not, I take note of all men who “notice” me. Then from the ones who notice me, I make eye contact with the ones that I find attractive. And it kind of goes from there.
So notice the men who notice you and pick the most attractive ones from that pile. I’m a 7, my exhubby was a 9 (looked like Ryan O’Neal); ex bf was a 9 in looks, but because he was a tad insecure that knocked him to a 8; if he had been more confident, he would have been a 10. Current player bf – straight on looks, probably about an 7.5, but his confidence rachets him to 10+. It’s really weird, you see his confidence and not his looks. — But I noticed they noticed me and I noticed them back.
Anyway, notice the men who notice you and you should have better results.
Evette says
Hi Karmic,
While I appreciate your wisdom, I agree with Jenna somewhat. Many women are criticized for what they want in a guy even when it may be more practical. I’m not meeting this woman that supposedly wants a 6’6″ man that looks hot and makes $1M a year. I wouldn’t even date him if magically the opportunity presents itself because he’s getting more ass than a toilet seat and I don’t want to deal with that. I feel like the women in my circle have always been pragmatic and dated from there. I would say the successful ones of my circle were more proactive about meeting men. They had no problem walking up to men at a party and saying something witty or funny or lightly complement the guy and because they may have talked to everyone at the party by the end of the evening, nothing felt unusual but they were choosing men that they liked in a cool, chill way.
Denise says
Right on Karmic, you and I have had a similar approach…partly because Evan convinced me to be open to all kinds of men, and more importantly, to give men a chance. I left on line dating and started to meet men in real life, for those that noticed me, I noticed them and went on a date with them or even started a relationship. The men went from my age (48) up to 60, every physical example from shorter to taller, slight to bigger build, blue collar to very professional, no money to more than enough. And each time it didn’t work out, I chalked it up to experience, what I learned and got back on the horse.
The result of all that was so educational. I really learned what I appreciated about a potential partner, really helped me to come up with a thoughtful, relevant ‘non negotiables’ list, and to recognize that man when he entered my life (I knew on our first phone call he met almost every entry on my list). I’m in a great relationship with an awesome man, who treats me very well, adjusts to make me happy, wants to know what makes me happy, does what he says he will do, and who I never have to wonder where he stands and that he will cheat on me. If I wouldn’t have done all that dating/relationships, I woundn’t have recogized my good fortune!
Karisma says
Tom10
If a girl is dating a guy do you think they should they be upfront about what they want if they do just want a relationship or just casual sex?
Karmic, Denise
Wish I had known about multiple dating 10 years ago. LoL. I am in my early 30’s now and still get the same shit from guys I meet. Even from the current ex. A 35 year old. By the way. Would expect that from a guy in their 20’s. Not mid 30’s. Roll eyes.
But yes have to change my approach to dating and see how that goes…
Jenna says
Whoa, whoa, I did not mean to insult anybody here. I posted that in a very grumpy mood about being single. I did not mean to imply that Evan did not choose the woman he wanted, but rather, a lot of men *do* have an idea of the woman they want in their heads, pursue that “just know” feeling, and then get married. Evan didn’t do it that way, he was more deliberative. With the remarks about women being urged to date unattractive and old men, I was referring to some of the male commenters on here, not Evan’s advice.
I’ve been open to many types of men for years and that has taught me many things but not lead to luck. I have never had a type or a checklist. The thing I learned from dating so much and such a variety is that I was not selective enough, that I would date men who I blatantly was not likely to be compatible with, or who were too far down in looks and didn’t even treat me well enough to compensate for it – not that that is the intention of Evan’s advice, it was just an issue I was encountering. To me, referring to marrying down has nothing to do with money. I’m an accomplished, intelligent woman who knows if she wants money, she’s going to go out and earn it herself, not rely on a man to spend money on her like he’s her daddy. Referring to marrying down is just a reference to not really getting the guy you want, who’s a 6 or 7 in looks, makes your heart sing, and shares a really deep, personal connection with you – and no, I never thought that needed to be highly apparent on dates 1, 2, 3, or 4, trust me.
I know so many men who just get the girl they want, they go out and pursue her, and we women have to choose from a selection offered to us rather than go out and win over the people we want.
But that’s my grumpy attitude rearing it’s ugly head again, I regret that after trying so hard to be positive that’s wearing down in the face of a string of mediocre dates.
kercp says
Better snatch up those nerds before it’s too late 😉
Rampiance says
To me, marrying down (or dating down) means going with someone who treats me with less respect and adoration than I feel about myself. Some men have told me that I’m the only woman they have opened car doors for or done other chivalrous things for. Not because I expect it or wait for them to do it. They said it was because it made them feel like The Man: my queen brought out their king, and they loved it.
Marrying down or dating down also means going with someone who puts less energy into our interactions — so much less that I feel drained or feel that I have to muster up my energy from reserves in order to get to a level of energy that feels right to me. I’ll put in extra energy for a short while, in case there’s an anomaly, but I’d rather synergize with someone so our energies make more together than either do separately.
Tom10 says
Karisma
“If a girl is dating a guy do you think they should they be upfront about what they want if they do just want a relationship or just casual sex?”
Well it’s not gender specific: I think the onus is on whichever party is unhappy with the status quo to discuss their unhappiness with the other party, and until then assume that the status quo is all that’s on offer. I.e. if it’s only casual at the moment, the onus is on whichever party that wants a relationship to say that’s what they want. If they’re a couple but one party wants to get married and is unhappy simply being in a relationship, then they should voice that concern.
I think relying on a societal ‘assumption’ that it will progress to an ltr and eventually marriage is a poor strategy.
Karmic
I employ the same strategy: I notice the women who notice me, then make eye contact and smile at the ones I’m attracted to before approaching. It almost always works, and when it doesn’t at the very least I’ll enjoy an interesting conversation.
I like your advice to observe, observe, observe. We should all be observing the interactions of others and rigorously analyzing what works and what doesn’t work, then applying the lesson learnt to our own interactions.
Karl R says
Jenna stated: (#212)
“I know so many men who just get the girl they want, they go out and pursue her, and we women have to choose from a selection offered to us rather than go out and win over the people we want.”
If it’s that easy, do what men do. When you walk into a social situation, find the man who you’re most attracted to and ask him out.
After you’ve tried that a few dozen times, you’ll discover a pattern. Either you’re rejected immediately, or you’re rejected after a short-term relationship where his interest in you ends at physical gratification.
I can’t “win over” a woman who doesn’t want me. Of the women I was attracted to, I didn’t waste my time with 90% to 95% of them … because they’d given no indication that they were interested in me. Of the ones who seemed interested, about 50% declined a first date. (And that 50% acceptance rate is higher than most men see … largely because I became rather attuned to whether women were interested,)
A man’s options are down to a few percent just getting to the first date. It’s only looks easier to you because you haven’t thought about (or experienced) the reality of it.
Karisma asked: (#215)
“If a girl is dating a guy do you think they should they be upfront about what they want if they do just want a relationship or just casual sex?”
I don’t think that’s a fist date conversation. If a man or a woman implies that they’re interested in a long-term relationship too soon, they’re likely to scare off a partner who is undecided. Most of us (men and women) start the dating process attracted to our date (on some level), but not knowing whether that person has any long-term potential. For the men (at least), it’s highly likely that we’re still interested in casual sex regardless of the long-term potential.
If you know a way to express that desire without sounding desperate or crude, there’s no harm in saying so up front. Most people aren’t sufficiently eloquent to pull that off.
Karisma says
Karl R
I did not think it was a first date conversation either but you also don’t want to be strung along.
Sometimes guys don’t bring up their intentions until you notice certain things while you are dating them and have to voice your concerns yourself months later if you do end up seeing a few red flags when you have already developed feelings for them.
One of my friends mentioned to me don’t be afraid to loose him, if it is not what you want.
I wish I had taken her advice earlier with the last guy and ended it a month into it. When he had just told me ‘I will see how it goes’ realising how much of a vague, non answer that is and questioning that more, would have probably saved me a fair bit of grief.
Karl R says
Karisma, (#217)
If your goal is to avoid pain, frustration and spending months in relationships that ultimately end … stop dating. Period.
I’ve operated under the assumption that my odds of getting hurt in an unsuccessful relationship were a little over 50% … and my odds of getting hurt in a successful relationship were 100%.
Karisma said: (#217)
“I wish I had taken her advice earlier with the last guy and ended it a month into it. When he had just told me ‘I will see how it goes’ realising how much of a vague, non answer that is”
That’s a normal comment that is said by many men (and women) who are interested in a serious relationship … but aren’t certain if the person they’ve been dating is the person they want a long commitment to.
My wife and I were saying “let’s see how things go,” for at least the first five months of our relationship.
If you think you’re getting strung along just because the guy doesn’t know whether you’re a potential wife at the one-month mark (or the six-month mark), you really aren’t ready for dating.
Karisma said: (#217)
“One of my friends mentioned to me don’t be afraid to loose him, if it is not what you want.”
That’s true.
But, you only want men who know they want to spend the rest of your lives with you after only the first month?
Most women avoid those obsessed men. They even file restraining orders against some of them.
Fusee says
@Karl: Congratulations on your wedding and the start of your marriage! I wish you a lot of happiness, and as little hurt as possible : ) Nice to read your great comments again!
RW says
@Tom
Wow, I wasn’t being sarcastic! How poorly sarcasm (or lack thereof) translates over this form of communication. Sorry you thought that. I just meant that “ignoble” is a rarely used word these days and its meaning has gotten lost. It is refreshing to see someone use it.
hespeler says
I second what Karl R wrote re: options. Dating for the majority of folks (even the good-looking ones) is about creating options and maintaining those options to see if a LTR (if that’s what you want) develops. We can’t always create the option and most of the time we can’t maintain the option.
As the options fall away, we’re left with what’s left. Most of the time, both men and women can’t get what they want when they want it. For women, it’s a result of who’s approaching you, for men it’s a result of who’s receptive to being approached. Both genders arrive at the same opportunities and at the same closed doors, albeit in different ways.
Karmic Equation says
@Jenna
If you’re only attracted to men you have to “win over”, you’re going to to be in world of hurt. They’re all going to dump you eventually. Guaranteed. You need to be a prize that men have to win over. If the only men that want you are ones you aren’t attracted to, you have to figure out why. I wonder if this is your problem. Also, I’m thinking you sometimes say things that come out the wrong way (like the post that Evan replied to–I felt and reacted to the same undercurrents he did) – Guys care how you talk. If you do this alot…say something that you have to backtrack on, I suspect that this could be a reason guys disappear on you.
@Karisma
Listen to Karl R. I would add that once you had sex, you lost leverage in the relationship, especially if what you wanted was a relationship and not just fun. Do what Evan says: Don’t have sex with a guy until he’s your boyfriend.
Adaora says
First of all Evan i just stumbled on your blog and i have spent days catching up on all the wisdom i have missed. it truly feels like i am church and the sermon is being is read!Thank you!
KARMIC EQUATION! I think you are pretty AWESOME! Reading all of your comments all i get is that you have a healthy SELF ESTEEM which i think is very crucial for women to have to survive in the dating world. I truly believe you when you say ” I really love who i am” you seem like you truly believe you are WORTHFULL ( Pardon me i truly believe it should be the opposite of worthless) and that you truly feel WHOLE by yourself. When a woman has a healthy sense of self, and self worth, when she doesn’t need a man to validate her existence on earth, she begins to view men as human beings FIRST and not boyfriend or husband. This is crucial because men don’t need women to validate their existence, we GIVE THEM THE POWER. A healthy self esteem is also why you are able to have sex with a guy and not have your self esteem crumbled if it doesn’t lead to a relationship, because you are so fucking SECURE in who your are and this is what i call SPARTAN behaviour!
RW says
@Karmic
Haven’t read many of the other posts yet but I think it’s possible you and I are talking about slightly different things. I’m not saying Tom should walk into his first dates and proclaim at the beginning that he’s not looking for anything serious. That would be like asking a woman to tell her first date she wants exactly two children and the proverbial white picket fence. If a woman agrees to a one night stand or a date develops into that I agree that the woman allowed it to happen and that she should take responsibility. But I think he mentioned at some point that he does not push for sex early. I could be wrong about that in which case this whole discussion is moot and I apologize. But if dates two, three, four or however many pass with escalating physical intimacy and Tom and his date appear to get along well, it would seem to most that it is the start of a possible relationship. Of course there is no guarantee that it will last but there is the possibility of something more. For Tom, if I understand correctly, there is not, at least at this moment. He is not looking for anything serious. All I am saying is that it is the nice thing to do to let his date know that earlier rather than later. In any case it sounds like it’s not a problem. He says he hasn’t hurt anyone and he sounds like a nice dude so he’s probably dating like minded women 😉
Karmic Equation says
@RW
Tom10 says if he doesn’t get sex within 2-3 dates, he moves on. If a woman thinks a relationship is developing after 2-3 dates she is naive at best or delusional and/or unstable at worst.
So if a woman has sex on the third date without declaring that she’s looking for a relationship and not sex, then she can only blame herself.
No woman should have sex in an uncommitted relationship if she can’t handle the “hit and run”. And if you don’t know the guy well enough to know whether he will run on you or not, then you actually don’t know him well enough to have sex with him.
Tom10 says
RW
Thanks for that — yes it can be difficult to imply or detect nuance sometimes.
I suppose I should clarify, as some of my posts probably sounded a bit contradictory. I don’t push for sex first simply because I think it’s a poor strategy — it can seem needy, aggressive and desperate. I find that when women are ready they push for it themselves. Luckily where I live they seem to do that quite soon (by international standards anyway) — i.e. usually by the first or second date. When I say ‘early’ I mean a few hours 🙂
If I meet a girl in a bar and we go back to hers I don’t say anything because I think it’s reasonable for me to assume that she knows that it’s just a hook-up / ons, or possibly more if we both feel it (though statistically unlikely). In the past if I really liked her and the sex was good I would continue to meet her for a few weeks or months without saying anything, until she dumped me. Now I say that I don’t want more and it’s up to her if she wants to keep seeing me. My point was why didn’t she say she wanted more?
If I meet someone in normal circumstances and we go on a regular date and I know it’s only going to be a fling, then I think your point is reasonable that I should say I don’t want anything serious, so I do say that upfront.
I did hurt someone before, although inadvertently, because I assumed women didn’t get feelings until after it was declared ‘official’. How naïve was I before I came here!
However, Evan’s motto that “men look for sex and find love” applies to me too. I once fell madly in love with a woman I had a fling with, but as luck would have it she didn’t feel the same way and faded me out. This could happen again, whereupon I’m sure I’d consider a relationship. However, having read this blog for a few months I know that that was just a chemical rush and a poor basis for forming a long-term relationship. That’s why I’m waiting until I’m ready.
In spite of all that, I think Evan and Karmic’s point stands: that the obligation to state what people are looking for is equal, and that if a woman is liable to feel hurt and used after finding out that the man she’s with just wants casual, then she should take responsibility for those emotions and should state what she wants prior to having sex.
Karmic Equation says
We’ve spent most of this thread talking about players, not narcissists. They’re not necessarily mutually inclusive, imo. My exhusband was a narcissist but not a player. He was almost puritanical. My current bf was a player and still a narcissist. LOL.
What I find interesting they have in common is that they are both the youngest children in their family and their next closest siblings in age were 15 and 16 years older than they were. We all know about the father/daughter bond and mother/son bond, so I think that, basically, they were the center of the universe for their mothers and thus grew up thinking that the world revolved around them and that women were placed on this earth to cater to them.<roll eyes> They had no siblings close to their own age to “fight” with or learn to share with, etc.
Do any of you know if the narcissists that you dated/married/divorced were the youngest (with no close-in-age siblings) or the only child in their family? Just curious.
Mel says
I dated a narssasist. think his brother was a year or so older. I’m pretty sure his mommy put him up on a pedestal. He mentioned he and is brother argued and faught at times but not too much. But I think his brother wasn’t there for him much.
Michael says
Unfortunately I think most women define ‘player’ as a man who dates them but decided HE doesn’t want it to go longer. Clearly we as men date women who decide after a date or a few or even few months that we ‘aren’t a match’. Does that make them players? I mean heck not only did we end up w/o a relationship we probably spent $1000s in the process. Did we get ‘played’?
I think women who complain about players are generally the ones who are chasing looks and clothes and cars and jobs. Which doesn’t mean btw the men they are chasing are jerks or players. It means the men they are chasing have the things and qualities that mean they have more options. So they, just like attractive women have the opportunity to date more and be pickier about who they want to commit to. If you really want a man who is going to appreciate you and choose you, you are going to have to choose more average looking guys with more average jobs/finances. Good chance you will end up with a man who really appreciates you but make no mistake it is in some part due to the fact he does NOT have many options so appreciates the one he has.
It is no different then dating women; the younger/prettier/more well dressed/successful/educated/etc women I date, the greater the competition will be and the greater likelihood she will choose someone else if we date whether it is after 1 date or 1 year.
Mel says
Nope, I don’t see men as players who dates for a few months to see if “we are a match”. But someone above on the previous page there should be progress happening. Things should be progressing and reevaluation should be happening and communicating where each person feels they are in the relationship.
Some people do string people on far too long because they don’t know what they want and too scared to make a decision. I still don’t classify that as a player, just someone that is a bit weak or too scared to be the “bad guy”.
Jenna says
Karmic — men rarely disappear on me. And of the many men I also rejected, (after dates 1-3) I had real reasons for doing so that were not superficial, such as obvious incompatibility of life goals and lifestyle. Or kissing them repulsed me. I have dated enough and explored myself enough to get that for me personally, right now, being single and sustaining myself with a fun social life and casual dating and flings feels better than it would have to have a relationship with any of the men who wanted one. I get that there are consequences and frustrations to that but I’ll deal with them. My frustration in part was about the relative passivity encouraged of women in the dating game. Yes, it makes sense to lean back and let men pursue -I’ve done it many times – but there is something to be said for learning from what, say, pick up artists do and using game to build rapport and connection and use disqualifiers as well as have them qualify themsrlves to you, teasing, coming up with inside jokes, etc etc — all to be more proactive about making pursual happen.
Karmic Equation says
@Jenna
Makes sense. All I’m saying is that if you’re looking and not finding what you’re looking for using your current mindset, which seeming denigrates the feminine quality of passivity into a negative rather than exalting in being feminine/passive — you’re inadvertently cosmically/karmically/male-female dynamically/what have you–driving away the guys who want the feminine/passive. In other words your masculine energy may be driving the most masculine minded men you really want away. The very masculine are attracted to the feminine, not to masculine. Strong, smart, successful women are looking for strong, smart, successful men, (commonly known as projection) but those men aren’t looking for strong, smart, successful, they’re looking for sweet, feminine, receptive.
Just be aware that exalting in your feminine energy increases your choices, not diminishes them. Feminine energy attracts-and holds the attention of-both alpha and beta males. Masculine energy, for the most part, only holds the beta male’s attention. The alphas may be somewhat attracted for the ego-stroke, but ultimately, will walk away. I am a totally alpha female at work. But I’m a totally feminine woman away from work. My alpha-ness does sneak out every now and then, but that just adds to my charm rather than detracts…gives me an unexpected spicy edge. Were I always in my masculine energy, I’d lose my options. As a woman, your job is to have as many options as possible to choose from.
That said, it appears you have a lot of choices, yet they’re not the choices that you really like, so you need to change your strategy to increase your options. Changing your mindset is free so why not try it? You’ll feel less frustrated and more relaxed when you let the men come to you and you know you’re attracting all types of men, not just one type. Being feminine doesn’t make you weak. If that is what you think, you need to stop thinking that.
In the battle of the sexes, understanding and exalting in your femininity gives a woman an edge. The problem as I see it, is that most of the smart, successful women on this board have had so much success at work based on their alpha-ness, that they’ve either forgotten or never learned or are uncomfortable with their feminine side. Feminine doesn’t mean simpering and being vapid. Feminine means understanding the qualities that make a woman a woman and fully leveraging that when “on the hunt” (i.e., dating :))
“Lead a man to chase you until you catch him.”
Let a man think it’s all his idea. That’s how you get what you want.
Ellen says
Karmic #226: My first husband was/is a narcissist and he WAS an only child…..
Karl R says
Jenna said: (#228)
“My frustration in part was about the relative passivity encouraged of women in the dating game.”
I wouldn’t call it passive. It could be more accurately described as reactive (instead of proactive).
“Mirroring” isn’t the only viable strategy. Evan recommends it because it applies well to his typical clients, the type of men they’re normally attracted to and the type of relationship they’re trying to get. Furthermore, it’s very easy to teach.
Jenna said: (#228)
“there is something to be said for learning from what, say, pick up artists do and using game to build rapport and connection and use disqualifiers as well as have them qualify themsrlves to you, teasing, coming up with inside jokes, etc etc – all to be more proactive about making pursual happen.”
If you want to do something like that, go ahead. But you may have to be like the early PUAs who had to invent their own technique through experimentation, trial-and-error.
I know there’s a dating expert who gives women advice on how to be more proactive. (I’m not sure which one, since I’ve never read the advice.) You might have to modify the advice, because it may be geared toward long-term relationships, not the shorter-term ones that you seem to be most interested in.
Karmic Equation says
@Karl 231
I wouldn’t call it passive. It could be more accurately described as reactive (instead of proactive).
I agree. This is a much better description.
Jenna says
Karl and karmic, thanks for your insight. I have tons of experience dating and have usually played the feminine role and mirrored, though have tried other strategies as well. I was never one of those women who was aggressive and controllong as some of Evan’s clients are described. I’m now at the point where I’m willing to experiment a bit more and see in the field what is working for me. One’s technique should be tweaked depending on age, attractiveness, life goals, and personality type of you as well as the type of guy you are looking for. I don’t just do something bc dating experts say so, i just date lots of folks, try things, and observe for myself what is effective in my own life. While on one recent date that started off super awkward and I didn’t look all that good bc I was sick, I was able to totally turn things around by using some things puas taught me, such as teasing and coming up with inside jokes. I was proactive , yet got the guy to fall all over himself to pursue me that week for another date. Yet such advice is rarely mentioned in dating advice for women, which usually boils down to don’t act crazy/clingy , delay sex, and don’t initiate contact.
Jenna says
Karl – also, I am looking for a ltr, just not celibate while I do so
Karl R says
Jenna said: (#233)
“I don’t just do something bc dating experts say so,”
I don’t recommend that either. I only took dating advice that made sense.
Examples of Evan’s advice that apply to men:
1. I can’t change women. I can only change myself.
2. Mirroring (if a woman isn’t mirroring me, she’s not interested).
3. If I am willing to compromise on less important traits, I expand my options.
4. Playing games will help you catch someone who is interested in playing games … which isn’t what I’m looking for.
5. Neither men nor women have an advantage when it comes to dating.
6. Having casual sex can slow the process of finding a long-term relationship (it clouds objectivity, impairs judgment and distracts people from the goal of a LTR).
Examples of PUA advice (translated from PUA jargon into real English) which apply to women:
1. Stand out from the crowd.
2. Don’t be a suck-up.
Jenna said: (#233)
“I was able to totally turn things around by uusing some things puas taught me, such as teasing and coming up with inside jokes.”
I don’t consider that to be a PUA technique. It’s called “flirting”, and that technique is older than my parents.
Jenna said: (#233)
“One’s technique should be tweaked depending on age, attractiveness, life goals, and personality type of you as well as the type of guy you are looking for.”
PUA techniques are intended to allow beta males to convince more-attractive women that they are actually alpha males … with the goal of having a short-term sexual relationship.
I didn’t bother with their advice because I wanted a long-term relationship, and I could see how those techniques would ultimately sabotage any long-term relationship.
Summer says
My last relationship was with a narcissist/player. He’s the oldest in family order. Something happens in childhood that creates an egocentric view of the world. Listen for the feel sorry for me ploy, there’s usually a sad story or excuse for inexcusable behavior. Run!
Jenna says
Karl, I agree with much of what you said, and apologies to others on this blog for leading the comments a bit off topic. First, I don’t have sex with anyone who is a ltr prospect, or sex with more than one person at a time. Also, I don’t believe in playing games or manipulating, but if pua stuff helps me demonstrate higher value (of course, I’ve had to work on other areas of my personality and life to truly be higher value rather than just dupe someone into thinking I am such), learn to flirt better, show interest without putting pressure/expectations on the other person, check people who are trying to use or condescend me, and brush off rejection in a classy way then that’s a really positive thing. So many women (and men), regardless of whether they are following standard dating advice or not, act/think really beta. That would include some of Evan’s clients/commenters who are desperate for a relationship, who pressure men, or who do mirror but are inwardly doubtful and hung up on the guy, who think all men are bad or that dating is impossible, who put up with bad behavior, who try to control or tell the guy what to do, who play it so cool that they appear to have no backbone, etc, etc. I’m obviously guilty of beta behavior/thoughts myself and am trying to work on it, but I felt some of the pua stuff really spoke to me about these issues in a way that the traditional advice to just not be crazy, let the guy pursue you, etc., doesn’t entirely get at. Some of it is of course irrelevant or harmful to someone seeking an ltr.