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To be fair, she was 21, and to be fair, we ALL judge people based on appearance and come to false conclusions about them. Hell, in my 20’s, I used to go to bars with my roommate and we’d make up limericks about total strangers just to entertain ourselves since we didn’t have the guts to approach women.
The people you’re making fun of are often a lot happier and better adjusted than you are.
But, there’s often a deep underlying irony when it comes to schadenfreude. Namely that the people you’re making fun of are often a lot happier and better adjusted than you are.
Says Calhoun, “We made fun of the people in the pictures for being desperate, but no one was more desperate than we were. At parties I often pretended to be someone named Amy and occasionally mud-wrestled. I was living with a boyfriend I would later marry and quickly divorce. Stephen frequently confessed to me sordid exploits that even I was shocked by. Richard had sworn off love and sex altogether. We were deeply flawed, unhappy people with lousy lives.”
I know that I was a wiseass kid. I know that I still have a streak of that in me. But I’ve also grown more compassionate and understanding of strangers, and attempt to put myself in their shoes instead of demonizing them. In fact, the only time you’ll see me get a bit agitated in the comments section of this site is when a stranger has taken absolutely no pains to try to understand ME – and resorts to insults, name-calling, or merely asserting that I’m wrong.
So, please, read this short piece about looking down on others and try to look at your fellow citizens through a prism of compassion, instead of scorn.
Nice honest sentiment Evan. I was born to be a sensitive soul and am a very considerate person so have not had this issue but I’ve known some rather unpleasant characters over the years who could do with a dose of reading this article. I’ll tweet it out in the hope some of them maybe on twitter! 🙂
Thanks
Grace
Thanks Evan for this piece on our “it’s you, not me” culture. I love your articles because what I always get as the take away is being your best self will always serve you well and in addition just might help you to find that right one. And even if we don’t find him/her, being the best versions of ourselves is still a win.
Thank you Evan.
i,d like to say i find it ironic that older men and women, especially women, are considered fair game.
We,ll all be old one day if we don’t die first. Our own old age might be a happier experience if we don’t spend our youth despising our elders.
mind you, one of the consolations of getting older is that you stop caring what people think of you.
As a childhood victim of bullying, I try to not engage in this behavior…
Marymary 3 is right: WHY is it older women are so picked on in this society? Case in point: Hilary Clinton, Joan Rivers, Kirstie Alley. Lately Nancy Pelosi for being too “old” per Tim Russert’s son Luke. etc. etc. Once when breaking up with a man nearly my age (only three years younger and in his fifties also) he told me “you’re just an old woman”. To which I responded, “then you are too- ____, you’re only three years younger. Uh, Duh!”.
The whole online dating thing is so often silly and superficial and sometimes kinda dangerous that it’s easy to lampoon all the participants, one way or another. The assumption also is if you’re online dating you are sleeping around with abandon and having just too much fun. Often friends my age (boomer women, married and unmarried) would look at me concerned that I was swinging a bit too much from the chandeliers, having too much fun. I know for a fact that I was probably gossiped about both at work and in my family and social circle. It was probably my fault as I confided too much about the process. I needed to confide because, man!, I mostly despised the three years I dated online. lol But like Marymary, I mostly don’t care anymore what others think as I now thoroughly know myself and accept myself. Have no allusions about myself even.
Finally re putdowns, I really thought most of this behavior ends shortly after college. I don’t know anybody who is vicious that way- at least not in my social circle. I wouldn’t socialize with them for one thing.
Thanks for this. It really makes me think. I really try as much as I can to even deal with negative people by reminding myself that they too are human beings, flawed like we all are. It helps to have empathy and realise that everyone is struggling through life. I find myself constantly in awe of people who have dealt with a lot in this life but keep powering on.
I volunteered with a charity last year and there was this man there who died recently. I knew he was ill but I didn’t think much about it. This man was very ill and devoted his life to the charity – he was there every weekend and spent all his free time on it. I later discovered that he had been given limited time. He was told by a doctor that he could drop dead any minute. He’d mentioned walking the Great Wall of China and climbing Mount Everest. Suddenly those stories took on a new significance when I became aware of how he’d stayed positive in face of fear. I also know a war veteran who is almost 100 years old now. I asked him what the secret to long life is. And he said “As soon as you stay sitting in your chair, that’s it”. He has this great enthusiastic attitude towards life – a great sense of ‘get up and go’.
The sentiments in the article really resounded with me in terms of how I think about my parents. I know everyone has issues with their parents and I think I’ve had a lot of growing up recently. I can see all their flaws but it only makes me love them more. I look back on past boyfriends now and try to love parts of them. It’s strange but I can see their weakness and their humanity now.
I have great belief that most people see who you really are beyond the façade and treat you accordingly; that most of us are good and kind at heart. I simply do not believe what people say about modernity or capitalism corrupting people as a whole. I think there is something fundamentally positive and human which we all share and is worth reaching out for.
Another thing which struck me as interesting is an article I came across which talked about how attractive people are more conformist, perhaps more critical of others for that reason. Think it links in quite well to the subject of the article. Often people who are deemed ‘ugly’ are quite well-adjusted. Or maybe in general people are better adjusted when they focus more on what is essentially human than qualities which are fleeting and superficial.
It sounds horrible to say, but I’m younger and relatively more attractive and frequently find myself mocking other women in my head for being plain and generic. I feel ashamed of myself for doing so. It must be a defense mechanism. Ultimately, I’m insecure because men use me for my looks a lot, and it seems like the generic, or even unattractive, women often have boyfriends because to get a boyfriend you need a guy who is not distracted by your looks but focused on your personality. I’m really trying to not think such mean thoughts, it’s not right. But I could relate to the article.
@Jenna #7
I am extremely impressed by your honesty. Thanks for having the courage (and vulnerability) to share.
That was a well-written, witty article. I appreciated the author’s self-deprecating humor, confiding that she sometimes went to parties using a pseudonym and also that she mudwrestled. That’s completely hilarious.
I don’t like cruel humor, but I do enjoy laughing about almost anything. While I don’t think it is promotes good juju to sit around and rip on other people, I think seeing the silliness in any situation is positive as long as one can first and foremost see the ridiculousness within themselves.
Hey, Lucy #7. That is also a fun article you’ve linked to. Thank you for sharing it.
Every day I try not to judge or look down on people but I’m sure I’ll still do it. A friend of mine who took a consciousness raising course told me he learned that we are all “judgement machines”. Gratefully I am at a point in my life where I can recognize it and catch myself, remind myself what I am doing, and thus stop it.
Having been the target of judgement and criticism from a female “friend” over the last few years who I am gingerly extricating myself from has definitely heightened my awareness. This woman is apparently in a constant state of judgment and criticism of other people. Since she has a warm, welcoming side, I tried to be compassionate but when the comments were directed at me, that was the beginning of the end. None of us are perfect but when “friends” that we think are on our side look down on us due to their own insecurity, it can still be devastating. I am still climbing out of the emotional morass that this woman’s repeated pattern of subtle and insidious put downs led me to. I realize intellectually that her judgements and put downs say much more about her own miserable state of mind than about me but it still hurts when someone feels the need to do this. I guess she is what they call a “frenemy”. Negotiating the delicate balance of compassion and self-preservation while I distance myself from her is challenging indeed.
How are you coping Now? I am in the same exact boat. It is painful. And I can only imagine the bullshit she is spreading….. and in there I think, perhaps I am wrong for judging the conversations, the ones that felt wrong and uncomfortable to be having. I practiced the Golden Rule….. I am one of few.
@ Soul Normally, I like what you have to say, but since Jenna is posting online, anonymously (since no last name, and I’m assuming she’s not the only “Jenna” in the world), I’m not sure why you think she has courage and vulnerability. Going up to the people she’s been cruel to and apologizing would be courageous. (She says she “thinks” these things, but I doubt she stopped with “thinking.”) Posting online? Not so much. I was a victim of bullying throughout my childhood, well into college, and at times even now. I endured monumental cruelty to the extent that I tried to kill myself twice when I was 13, and have battled depression and suicidal thoughts since. I knew things about kids in school that I could have thrown back at them, made them feel as awful as I did, but I never did. I never picked on anyone, I never look down on anyone, and I’ve never belittled anyone. I know all too well what it feels like. Don’t diminish the value of words like “courage” and “vulnerable” by tossing them out so casually, please.
I was thinking about the phrase “attractive people are more conformist”, but I can’t help but think “conformist people are (probably) more attractive”. If you subscribe to societal beauty ideals – hairstyles, fashion, hygiene, wearing makeup, staying in shape, etc – then however you’d be objectively viewed would probably be higher. I don’t think you can go from a 2 to a 9, but you can probably go from a 5 to a 7/8.
I don’t know that I’ve judged people based on their physical looks, but I know I’m guilty of “What are they THINKING?” You know… “How could they wear this to a job interview?”, “She needs a serious haircut” or in online dating, I sometimes wonder WHY people post pictures. Halloween was just last week, and I saw multiple men put a photo of them as Bane from Batman (face mask and all) as their man online dating picture. I recall another guy who basically took a bunch of web-cam photos of himself and put LOLCAT-style captions on all of them. He had messaged me and I didn’t write back (mostly because I was a month into dating another guy, and just didn’t want to totally delete my account, but I did think this idea for dating site pics was weird). A couple days later, without knowing what I thought, I get a second email from LOLCAT man. It was an angry tirade about what a snob I am and “It’s not just about looks”. I don’t know. It didn’t matter because I ended up dating the other guy exclusively for a long time, but I don’t know if judging this guy for his “weirdness” (not ugliness, just thought the LOLCAT thing was weird – or at the very least, not my sense of humor), but then I thought he was rude and presumptuous, and it doubly turned me off.
I’m not going to judge people on what God gave them, but I think it’s hard not to have some type of reaction when a person makes you go “What are they thinking?” Not to the extent of teasing/bullying them or making fun of them behind their backs.
Sara, I’ve endured a lot of cruelty in my life as well. That’s why generally I try to give others a chance. Trying to observe my thoughts and emotions better, I noticed that I do feel mild annoyance or contempt at times when I learn that a cute, cool guy I know or work with has a plain Jane girlfriend, or a dowdy girl has a great husband, but I would NEVER say that out loud, nor would it mean I wouldn’t give the girl a chance. It just comes naturally and I have to press the stop button in my head and realize it’s coming out of insecuritygetting triggered rather than a genuine dislike of plain people, which would be bizarre. I do notice that plain people seem to be better adjusted about this stuff, though, and prettier girls can be cattier, but there are good and bad people in both categories.
@ Jenna,
I apologize. I should not have assumed that you behave in a manner other than you admitted in your previous post.
My anger and hostility in my own statement came primarily from the post that followed, which suggested that someone should be praised as “courageous” for admitting that type of behavior anonymously/online when I have been working my way through the damage caused by such behavior for most of my life. I think we can agree that it is easy to admit online, and therefore, the use of the term “courageous” is a ridiculous overstatement.
I really like this article b/c so many of the discussions about dating and finding a partner start with people pointing out how beautiful/pretty/handsome they are. Some commenters here love to point out angrily the ugly/fat/uneducated people that are happily married when they are ‘perfect’ in so many ways an struggle to find love.
Even when approaching or well past middle-age, a lot of people believe that these beauty hierarchies that existed when you were in middle school, high school, or college still matter.
I remember when I was in college, a group of friends who were all pretty geeky (even at a super selective school of high achievers)and who would not be considered conventionally attractive by any metrics. I don’t think they were openly bullied, but a lot of kids snickered about how dorky they were/looked.
But I also remember how they all clearly found each other, all found solid partners in college, and married them. They dated and were friends with people who shared their interests. All of those girls and guys that were actually discussed and mocked for being ugly, dorky, etc. (one set of the girls were compared to the character Pat on SNL), have been happily married for years and have babies.
When we have college reunions, people separate into their college cliques and the dinners and picnics, and that group of friends still happily comes together with their respective partners and children. They are easily one of the happiest looking bunches of friends there.
It makes me very happy to see. Happy that being different didn’t affect them, and they either didn’t know or didn’t care about the rude things that some people said about them. And it should remind you that everyone can find love and be happy.
It’s probably worthwhile in many parts of your life not to assume that you should be happier, more successful, or more loved than others b/c you fit certain standards or can check certain boxes.
@Sara, # 11
you are definitely right, and I am sorry I chose the wrong words. I wanted to acknowledge that is is not easy to do, but you are right that courage” and “vulnerability” are really too strong for an online anonymous post (as opposed to face-to-face excuses)…
i am sorry for what what you went through, that must have been horrible, specially when you are young and unable to defend yourself….we, as human beings, can be so cruel to each other…specially in childhood…
Until we learn to see others as God sees us all, we will still struggle with being superficial and pretentious. I have been as guilty as anyone and I think that if we fear letting anyone get too close to us, it can be used to hold others at arms’ length.
When you really have yourself in order, you’re too busy to be thinking about other people so much. I’ve been guilty of the opposite to the main post. I tend to think everyone is better than me and had to get some therapy for it – it’s not any more noble though, just another form of egotism. I really admire people who go their own way and continue to be good people, while remaining unaffected by others’ judgements. Because our life is our own and no one can live it for us. And I remind myself that the people who made fun of me in the past, can see my strength. I’m a quiet and more measured person which has unsettled some people who expect I should be up all the time. But I’m comfortable with how I am and it’s only those people who see it as a problem. This is why I’m so sure this is an issue of conformity, and the people used to following it, have to uphold themselves to an image all the time. That only sounds stressful to me.
Am I the only one who thinks that Ada Calhoun shouldn’t be so hard on herself? She was placed in a situation that was ripe for making fun of others. If any of us was in the same situation, we would probably make fun of some of the photos too; it doesn’t automatically make us mean human beings. Dating does bring out a ridiculous side of humankind (i.e., her points about the costumes). Personally I think it is okay to laugh, as long as we recognize that we all have the same flaws to some degree, and therefore we are also laughing at that ridiculous part of our own selves.
I am one of Nicole #15’s nerds. Bullied as a child, made fun of in college by some, yet in the end I didn’t mind, because the people who loved and appreciated me were always the most interesting and fun in my nerdy opinion.
Lucy #18 had a good point when she said that “When you really have yourself in order, you’re too busy to be thinking about other people so much.” Nerds fall into this category. Not that we necessarily have ourselves in order (at least, others always see things about us that they want to fix), but we’re okay enough with ourselves that we can focus on other things, like solving all the problems of the world. We don’t have the time or interest to harp on others’ looks. Looks are not important problems in our book.
I truly don’t look down on others & never have. But am I the only one who finds that men often seem to appreciate women who do? Many guys I’ve known think that if a girl makes snide cracks about others but is pleasant to him, he’s one of the few who’s passed her “cool test” and he feels flattered and as though he’s special. She’s elitist and he just “made the grade. I genuinely consider everyone — those richer or poorer, better looking or less so, etc — my equal and some men think that makes me somehow less discerning. Sad.
Henriette,
All I can say for that last, is, it doesn’t work for me. There are few things that make any woman, how ever hot she is, lose her luster with me faster than being a snob and/or a judgmental bitch. Matter of fact, I think the prettier a woman is, the less reason she has to make someone else less, so she can feel like more. There’s a line between making some goood-humored observations about someone else’s foibles, and being mean-spirited; I think most of us know where that line is. Some don’t, and it’s not a very attractive quality
@Henriette,
I don’t think men appreciate women who look down on people. I think some men just don’t care what kind of personality a woman they find hot has, be it good, bad, or in-between.
I’m sure they aren’t paying attention to what they are saying.
And also, some people who are superficial bullies kind of come together and probably enjoy mocking others together.
My man would sure not love me the way he does if I looked down on others….
It goes against our values (which does not mean I have never had thoughts I am not proud of)
Well, most of my life I’ve been the person who was “looked down upon”, rather than the one looking down on others. I was never the “popular” one. First I was an emaciated, 90 pound nerdy kid with glasses and braces, and now I’m an old maid in my 30s who men look down on with these online dating sites (and after the years of unsuccessful online dating, I know I’m at the bottom of the dating totem pole in the eyes of male online daters. Not saying that in a “woe is me” self-pitying way, but just being realistic and taking the rose-colored glasses off. I’m not kidding myself that there are a lot of men out there who want an Asian woman in her 30s).
However, there have been moments where I was the one looking down on others–although not over looks. In retrospect, it was out of deep insecurity and a need to try to bolster up my own self-esteem. I once looked down on this beautiful 20-something model I know, always saying behind her back how stupid she is. I felt jealous of her for her youth and beauty, and for being the one that men will always desire over women like me. It somehow made me feel better to look down on her–to say that even though she’s young and desirable, at least she’s lacking in other areas. I can’t say I was too proud of that, though. After taking a break from online dating, my self-esteem is on the mend and on the way back up again. I’m learning to value myself from within, without relying on the external validation from others and independent of anyone else’s opinion of me. I’m trying to learn to see the good qualities in myself, regardless of whether I get male attention and validation. Once I’ve started feeling better about myself, I felt less of a need to put her down. The old adage is true that it says more about the people doing the insulting than it does about the people being insulted.
For the most part, I look at the total person and not simply the exterior. However, I find myself looking at other women at or near my age whose countenence just screams “I have given up.!” It is not about finding or attracting a man but about caring for yourself. So many women over 40, married or single, just seem to have totally given up on grooming, health maintenance, diet and exercise. Men, too, of course.
Then I remind myself that they may have a sick spouse or elderly parent to care for, or other committments that I do not have. I am fortunate in that my one living parent, my mother, is still very healthy and independent. I know that that could change in the blink of an eye.
Chistine
i,m Asian and older than you and it really is news to me that we aren’t popular with men.
I’m not Asian and it’s certainly news to me that Asian women aren’t popular with men!
Christine, I’ve seen you make that comment over and over and think you are really selling yourself short. If you are not attractive, you are not attractive, but simply being Asian and in your 30s is not the reason for your problem. I know lots of beautiful Asian women in their 30s – oftentimes nonwhite women do age better and look youthful for longer. I used to say stuff like that to myself too – I’m not Asian and in my 30s, but I repeated other justifications for why I didn’t always have great luck with men – and ever since I chose to stop believing those things my luck has tremendously improved. Ever since I chose to stop believing I was “different” than everyone else, that I didn’t deserve love, that I was not what men wanted, so much turned around for me. The fact is, the majority of women are plain Janes or even unattractive, yet they still find love. Few women are women that are most men’s cup of tea.
@ Christine
We are all pretty in our own way. Feminine beauty is
-30 percent nature
– 70 percent grooming (watch your weight, do your hair, take care of your skin and wear appropriate clothes)
– 100 percent smile and happiness!!!!!
You can do it sweetie, we all can !!!!!!
Evan, this article could be about the online dating world that you vigorously promote, many men judge the women that are on these dating sites and assume that they ‘must be losers if they need the internet” So, many women shy away from subjecting themselves to further abuse, just read the vitriol in these review articles for Match.com,
@Lurking
1. Anyone who would go to review a dating site had a bad experience on the dating site. Happy couples don’t go to sites like that.
2. For what it’s worth, you don’t quite have your facts straight. Women judge men far more than men judge women in online dating. That’s why women respond to fewer emails and find fewer men attractive, according to OkCupid.
3. If you haven’t succeeded in online dating, I’m presuming you’ve never tried it my way. You have that option if you click on the menu and go to Finding the One Online.
Thanks for the words of encouragement! I was having a bad moment there. I really do think that a lot of times, people put down or look down on others in an attempt to bolster up themselves–as I did with that other girl. Now I feel ashamed for having been so petty and insecure. I remember there was another younger, pretty girl who I used to be jealous of, so I mentally put her down as not having all that much depth. It made me feel better to think that yeah, she may be young and pretty but at least she’s stupider than me! I felt threatened by her, thinking that if any guy ever came along I’d be interested in, she’d snap him up away from me. However, the mutual friend of ours she DID end up dating was someone I was NEVER interested in anyway (I think he’s a great, funny guy but for whatever reason, just never felt that way about him). So in retrospect that was an irrational fear since she never actually took anyone away from me at all. As I got to know her, she’s actually very intelligent and mature for her age, and now she’s one of my dearest friends. I feel bad that I did that (even just in my own head), and that’s not the type of person I want to become.
One of the best things I did for myself was rid myself of a very hypercritical, so-called “friend” who was always giving me backhanded compliments or somehow putting me down, not making me feel very good about myself. Another mutual friend (who knows both of us very well and is also no longer friends with her) made a comment that she actually thought a lot of that was sparked on by jealousy. I don’t know if that’s true or not, but after having been on the receiving end of put downs, it does make me want to be more compassionate and empathetic of other people. And then, this former friend wonders why she has such a troubled marriage (if she’s even half as critical of him as she is of me, I don’t blame him for spending as much time away from her as he does!)
@Lurking
You cannot look at online dating (or any dating) as a form of abuse. Yes these men are judging us and we are judging them too. But personally I am proud of myself every time I agree to meet someone and put myself on the line to be judged because there is a chance that I will learn something, meet a friend, have a nice time or maybe just maybe, form a connection. Sure it’s safer for our egos to stay home and shun the dating scene but is it realistic? and does it serve you in the end? I say take Evan’s advice, build yourself up and then get out there and take the good with the bad.
That is a good way to look at it Laura. It certainly would have been safer for my ego to always just stay at home but, then of course you’ll never have true love. It’s analogous to how you can study really hard for a test and still not get the best grade in the class–but if you don’t try and don’t study at all, it’s guaranteed that you won’t. You can go on a lot of dates and still not find love. It certainly is frustrating to think of all the wasted time and effort spent on dating that never went anywhere. However, if you never date you’ll pretty much guarantee that you’ll never find it (well once in a blue moon I suppose you can meet someone by chance, but how often does that happen?) So the only real alternative I can think of is to grit your teeth through the setbacks and keep forging ahead.
I was really displeased about someone commenting on how as an Asian woman, she cannot find men online. That’s just an excuse. Lots of white men find Asian women attractive because they are seen as exotic. In fact, many of you Asians are ‘stealing’ our white men. Many men will go overseas and try to land Asian brides because they are seen as more desireable then us North American white women. Please don’t blame your age or your ethnicity for your lack of prospects. There are plenty of white men that dig Asians (bad news for white women like me who prefer white men) and there are plenty of Asian men looking for an Asian wife. Honestly, I think Asian women have a bigger pool of men to select from then white women. It’s pretty rare for a white woman to marry an Asian man. They are just not as desired as the white male. (I only know of one Asian man/White woman couple and very rarely I see such a couple in the very multicultural city of Toronto. It’s usually the white man with a brown/black or Asian woman)
I just joined online dating again after a break and came across a profile where a guy said he won’t date anyone with weird eyebrows, is ginger, or has a huge forehead or above 12 stone. I wrote off an email chastising him for putting that in this profile. hah I would never dream of putting something like that in my profile.
@Paula – I did date an Asian man and really his race made no difference to me. But unfortunately I have to confess that I find white men more attractive through no fault of my own. I also think that in Asian cultures women have a different status (even for second generation immigrants). I couldn’t be that woman he wanted. I felt I was the one with the burden of compromise. Compromise should be about both making sacrifices for a better solution, and not one person giving up a lot for another. In my experience men never really appreciate how much you sacrifice for them or at least they don’t really appreciate the pressures which come with being a woman in modern times. Feminism has made it so much harder for us. Men still take it for granted that we’ll do all the homely domestic things and somehow think we can do that in addition to a stressful job. So I think it adds more to our plate than ever before.
Paula 34: “many of you Asians are ‘stealing’ our white men.”
News flash – you don’t own white men. So they’re not yours to steal.
If you continue with an attitude like that, you’re not going to get far with the opposite sex. Men don’t like to feel that they’re someone else’s property. Maybe it’s because Asians realize that that many of us succeed with men of all races.
Paula said: (#34)
“In fact, many of you Asians are ‘stealing’ our white men.”
When did I become the collective property of white women?
I don’t care what race you are. I’m not attracted to bigotry. I’m not attracted to possessiveness.
Lucy said: (#35)
“Compromise should be about both making sacrifices for a better solution, and not one person giving up a lot for another.”
Ideally, that is true. But let me put a different perspective on it. I control whether I give up a lot for my wife. I have no ability to decide whether she makes any sacrifice for me. To whatever extent you expect/insist that the other person make sacrifices, you take control out of your own hands and put it into the other person’s hands.
Lucy said: (#35)
“In my experience men never really appreciate how much you sacrifice for them or at least they don’t really appreciate the pressures which come with being a woman in modern times.”
Similarly, you don’t recognize all the sacrifices that men make for you or the pressures on them. That’s human nature.
As a rule of thumb, assume a person will recognize all of the sacrifices he or she makes for a relationship, but about half of the sacrifices his/her partner makes. Therefore, the only way it can ever feel like your partner is pulling the same weight as you is if you’re not pulling your own weight.
@ Paula #34, the men you are talking about want an Asian woman, not for herself, but because they have some sort of a weird fetish where they want a woman of a certain race. Or, they’ve heard it somewhere that all Asian women are submissive so they want an obedient wife, and they think any Asian woman they pick at random, is going to be one. As an Eastern European woman I have experienced both attitudes to some extent. Personally I would never ever date a man who sees me as a token and not a person that I am. Not only is he going to be disappointed that I am not a typical (insert race/ethnicity), his attitude is borderline racist and as such highly unattractive. However it’s not all bad; a good portion of these men you see with “a brown/black or Asian woman” are just plain colorblind and choose a woman for who she is, not for her origin. You may want to try that approach sometime, it works great for a lot of people, especially, I would imagine, in a diverse city like Toronto!
Lucy #35
“Feminism has made it so much harder for us. Men still take it for granted that we’ll do all the homely domestic things and somehow think we can do that in addition to a stressful job. So I think it adds more to our plate than ever before.”
I notice that some younger women, who didn’t experience life prior to the feminist movement, tend to take the opportunities that women have gained post-feminism, for granted. It’s not the fault of “feminism” that some men still don’t pitch in with domestic duties. It’s men themselves (and women who accept the do-it-all mentality) who control how much work they do around the home, not feminism. Feminism has made it more acceptable – and possible – for women to work outside the home, and for men to be stay-at-home dads, if they so choose.
@Paula I have four sisters. One is married to a Vietnamese man, one is married to a man from Yemen, and one is married to a black man. People are attracted to other people for a variety of reasons, and no, in the cases of my sisters, it is most definitely NOT because my sisters are “submissive” in any way. We were just raised to view all races as equal, so any prejudice that people have simply didn’t matter. We also grew up in a tiny, rural town in Michigan, which is primarily white, not some racial melting pot. People are attracted to others for whatever reason, but the idea that asian women are “stealing” our men is just an excuse. It reminds me of black women complaining about black men dating white women. I used to work with some, was friends with some who would get angry that my sister was “stealing” their men.
@Ruby – Thanks. That makes sense. I just meet so many men like my dad who say that they believe in feminism but that women should do all housework as well as having a job. He says that if he helped around the home it would mean he wasn’t manly and he sees guys who are stay at home as mugs who’ve lost their masculinity. I’m not sure how relevant those opinions are.
Lucy #41
It’s too bad that your dad feels that way. I hope you won’t let his opinions have too much influence over you. Doing domestic chores, or even being a stay-at-home dad has nothing to do with a man’s manliness, but more about everyone in a family contributing to the common good. Stick to your beliefs and I’m sure you’ll find a supportive man.
[email protected], that’s news to me! I wish that the world were different but, as Evan covered in another thread, the dating world isn’t colorblind, unfortunately. Most of the white men I’ve encountered on mainstream dating sites such as match.com either screen me out immediately for not being white, or are a “fetishist” who only likes me for his stereotypes of what he thinks Asian women are like (a small percentage were genuinely interested in me at the beginning and then it didn’t work out for other reasons such as lack of chemistry in person, lack of compatibility, etc.) However, now I’ve built up my self-confidence again to the point where I don’t care anymore what those guys think of me. Frankly, I don’t want a narrowminded guy who immediately dismisses me based on my race (or stereotypes me as some “exotic” object), so I’m not missing out on anything by losing those guys as options. However, as frustrating as that is, I can’t control other people’s prejudices. I’m learning to just focus on what I can control (i.e. what I can do better and my choices in men–like perhaps opening up my own age range to those older men in their 40s)
Well, online dating has certainly been humbling, and at least made me a lot more empathetic than I used to be. Now I know what it’s like to be looked down on, so now I’m much less inclined to do that with other people.
some like to feel like they still have power over people and it’s and adrenalyn rush. Kind of sick eh?
Being judged by people according to appearance,qualification, rich or poor and how we dress, this is common in this world. But if you see someone who wear a dress or pants that you don’t look nice to your eyes and you look down on the people . i don’t think it’s will be nice.And making fun or mocking of people who is low self-esteem and those who have physically disability and mental disability it’s not good either. Besides we should look at our own personality and reflect our self in the mirror.