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In this incarnation of my dating life I have decided that I am not going to chase men. (In my younger days I admit that I did, and no good ever came of it.) This time around I absolutely I will not chase men, nor be baited into chasing one. (Yes, men are advised to bait, hook, and then ignore a woman, to get her to do the chasing). BTW, I am not a “rules” girl, I read that book, and feel dumber for having read it. I do want a man to pursue me, but when he does, I will be increasingly receptive to him, and once a relationship has been established, I won’t mind taking the initiative when appropriate. I won’t wait 2 days to return his calls, or only see him 2 times a week, or play all the mysterious stuff that Rules promotes. (They call it mysterious, but I call it secretive & evasive.)
So while I am not a hardcore Rules girl, I am a little old fashioned and want a man to pursue me, not hand me his business card and expect me to call him. Or e-mail me endlessly on Match.com but never ask to meet me face to face. What do you think of the role reversal being promoted by sites such as Ask Men (they call it “The System”) Do you think many men are following that advice ? —S.E.
Hoo boy. I’m not sure where to begin.
I would guess you’d be more interested in how you can understand and land the confident, successful, happily married guy, as opposed to the weak, insecure, jealous, inexperienced guy.
I guess I’ll start with how I give dating advice, and how I think it’s different than many of the other sources out there.
Like many people, my perspective has been shaped by my own experience. However, unlike many people, I had a few unique things going for me.
1) I come from a happy and highly functional nuclear family, so I not only had a model of the kind of marriage I wanted, but I strove to emulate it. Many people who give advice come from broken homes, abusive relationships and unfortunate backgrounds, none of which are a crime. But I think my past is a strength, inasmuch as I have a very healthy outlook on marriage.
2) I am — at the risk of immodesty — very confident and flirtatious. Let’s just say I had considerable practice in online dating, dating and relationships. Many people who give dating advice have been married for 30 years and don’t know anything about dating. Many others (think pick-up artists) came to do so because they are shy, awkward and insecure. But unless you want to attract a guy like that, why would you care what such men think?
3) I am married and in an incredible relationship because I followed my own advice. And I would guess you’d be more interested in how you can understand and land the confident, successful, happily married guy, as opposed to the weak, insecure, jealous, inexperienced guy. Then again, I could be wrong. I’m always willing to risk being wrong by having opinions. What kind of coach would I be if I didn’t have opinions?
4) I’m not afraid to stand on principle. Other coaches are marketers — their only desire is to a) pray that you like them and b) convince you to buy their products. My loyalty is not to my own biases or my own bottom line, but to the truth. I don’t view the world based on how I’d LIKE it to be; I pay attention to how it IS and advise on how you can best react to reality.
And very often, reality isn’t pretty. Would I rather tell you the truth or validate your worldview so that you don’t shoot the messenger?
The answer should be obvious.
Real men don’t play games, use power plays, or try to get the woman to chase them.
People come here because they expect to be told the truth, rather than some rah-rah “all women are goddesses” bullshit that I don’t believe and I don’t expect you to believe.
Unless you believe the equivalent bullshit that “all men are noble studs”.
Which, of course, they’re not.
Now that I’m done tooting my own horn, let’s refocus on the advice you’ve chosen to cite, from AskMen.com
I just went to Alexa to check out the site’s demographics. What did I discover?
The target audience for AskMen is men 18-24, men without children, and men who live at home or are in school. When I clicked to see their income, most of these men didn’t even HAVE income. Compare that to Esquire readers, the majority of whom make six figures. Which kind of man are you looking for, S.E.?
Basically, I’m asking you what difference it makes if a website for boys is giving those boys advice that will work on insecure teenaged girls with low self-esteem?
That’s right. It doesn’t. Real men don’t read AskMen.com.
Just as real men don’t play games, use power plays, or try to get the woman to chase them. This is run-of-the-mill pick-up artist advice for awkward teens, not advice that 40-year-old men and women are expected to utilize.
From this paragraph, it sounds to me like you know what you’re doing:
I do want a man to pursue me, but when he does, I will be increasingly receptive to him, and once a relationship has been established, I won’t mind taking the initiative when appropriate. I won’t wait 2 days to return his calls, or only see him 2 times a week, or play all the mysterious stuff that Rules promotes.
And if you know what you’re doing, it doesn’t impact you one iota if some guy is running a game on you. Guys who play games just eliminate themselves from dating confident, secure women. Right, S.E.?
At the end of the day, whether it’s a man playing games or a woman playing games, one thing is for sure: everybody ends up losing.
Michael17 says
As a guy who is actively looking for a relationship with the right woman (and who is on Match) and who is cute, successful, in shape, socially adept, and a nice guy (not to mention modest), I have a perspective on this that might be helpful to the women out there.
The reason why there is so much advice out there for guys is because, well, women can be hard to date. Or at least it sure seems that way to most of us guys. It doesn’t seem to us that your expectations are at all realistic. And it is NOT in looks or income. Instead, our experience is that you have to be feeling “chemistry” on the first date (which has little to do with looks) or there just won’t be a second date. This despite the fact that YOU are the ones who have your guard up when we meet for the first time. So a lot of the advice that is out there for guys is how to spark that chemistry.
I can’t tell you how many times I (and a couple guys I know) hear things like “you’re a great guy and I had a good time with you but no chemistry” after the first date. So we wonder what the hell that it is that you women are looking for.
Something for some of you women to consider. If you are finding dating to be frustrating, are you really giving the guys you meet a fair shot?
Jenn says
I can answer this confidently, since I went through this situation two months ago. A guy emailed me on Match who was a little outside my target age range. He was 11 years older than me; I really prefer men around my own age. But he wrote a really nice email and I haven’t had any really good date offers in a long time, so I met him. I did not feel instant chemistry, but I’ve made the mistake of writing men off prematurely before. So what did I do? I gave him three (yes, THREE) more dates. He was very nice, but never flirty, at least not from what I could tell. He never touched me on the first three dates at all, except to hug me goodbye and give me a peck on the cheek. He gave me compliments, but never anything flirty, it was always about how much he liked my positive attitude, my love of animals, blah blah, etc. He never made me feel sexy, or like he was really attracted to me. He waited until the third date to kiss me on the lips, after which I felt NOTHING. I went home crying from that date because finally, here was a guy who treated me exactly the way I want to be treated and what happens? I feel no spark at all! Just to be sure, I gave him one more try. We went to a movie, during which he spent the whole time trying to massage my arm through my puffy coat so hard that I actually felt mild pins and needles. It was incredibly awkward.
I guess it’s true that sometimes attraction does need time to develop, but guys also need to strike while the iron is hot. Had he kissed me on our second date, when I was expecting it (and actually nervous about it!), things might have been different. But then he killed any challenge when he gave me Christmas gifts when it was only our third date and waited until our fourth to start trying to get flirty physically.
Deb Sarkar says
You got this whole thing wrong. I will tell you why you didn’t feel any chemistry. You may not agree with me but I know this is true. When you saw his online profile, he looked sweet to you in his profile pics. Hence no matter what email he wrote to you, it felt sweet to you because you liked him from his profile and you accepted his date even when you had no plans to date someone so older than you. When a woman’s interest is high, she breaks the rules, even those she makes! Then you met him and realized that in real life he is not the one whom you imagined from his profile pic. He looks different in real life. And that was what killed the chemistry, not his actions. But you have been brainwashed to believe (not by me) that if you give him some time, maybe your feelings will change. That never happens no matter how hard you convince yourself. Because he is a good guy but he is not the one you fancied about. You don’t even know this, he had no chance at all. Even if he had kissed you on the second date, you would still have not felt the chemistry and probably awkward. If he had really turned out to be the one whom you fancied, you would have been all over him even if he hadn’t kissed you on the 3rd date! I understand women because I grew up with them.
SparklingEmerald says
[email protected]“Something for some of you women to consider. If you are finding dating to be frustrating, are you really giving the guys you meet a fair shot?”
But isn’t that leading a man on ? Or isn’t that just going out with a man “to be nice”. Guys, do you REALLY want a girl to give you a second or third date if she’s really just not into you ?
And what about guys who don’t ask for a second date for petty reasons ? Such as “she didn’t order her drink ‘confidently’ ” or she didn’t let him order her meal for him, or she “peacocked” her accomplishments. (IOW, he asked her what she did for a living, and she told him) Or what about guys who go for sex on a first or second date and when they don’t get it, never call again ?
If guys don’t initially get a boner for a girl, there is no first date. If they meet her online and her picture looks good, but they don’t get a boner when meeting her in person, there is no second date. Are they really giving her a “fair shot” ?
I would personally rather a guy “disappear” if he’s just not into me. Better he just evaporate after date 1 or 2, before I get too attached or invested.
But for women, it’s damned if you do, damned if you don’t. If we “give a guy a chance” we’re leading him on. If we don’t feel that initial spark, and decline a second date, then we “didn’t give him a fair shot”.
I wonder what we women are supposed to do according to men ? I guess the answer is that we are supposed to feel attracted to every guy who is attracted to us. (weather he’s just attracted to us in a booty call way, or attracted in a wants a relationship way)
Women catch a lot of flack on this blog if they admit that they weren’t attracted to (or felt chemistry) for a guy. There’s an undercurrent of “you deserve to die lonely ” if you ever turned a guy down.
Evan Marc Katz says
Sparkling Emerald: “There’s an undercurrent of “you deserve to die lonely ” if you ever turned a guy down.” Not from me. Seems like more hyperbole from you.
SparklingEmerald says
EMK @1.2.1
No not from you EMK, from your male bloggers. I was accused of “boasting” with “bravado” when I joined a blog discussion about not feeling chemistry, then he turned around and said we girls were probably making up stories because we were REALLY the ones getting rejected. (whatever) Male bloggers routinely make snotty remarks if a female poster shares that she wasn’t attracted to a good guy. And oh boy, don’t DARE mention on this blog that you prefer men who are taller than you. That brought on an onslaught of acrimony from your male posters.
I get rejected about as often as I do the rejecting (and about as often as there is mutual disinterest) According to some of your male bloggers, I’m getting rejected because I am defective, and when I reject a guy I’m being picky. (I’ve even been falsely accused of holding out for a tall, rich, handsome man, and I never said anything remotely like that.)
I think I’ll just stick with only going out with/going out with guys who I at least feel a level 7 or 8 attraction for. Anything higher, my judgement is too clouded, anything lower and I’m just trying to talk myself into something I’m not really into. And if the nice guy that I just don’t feel chemistry for thinks I’m “not giving him a chance” that just too bad. If he’s my age, I’m sure he’s handed out a rejection slip or two in his lifetime.
SparklingEmerald says
@1.2.1 – Not you, but your male posters. They get very hostile at the idea of a woman rejecting a man due to “lack of chemistry”.
Danaris says
Haven’t you felt the same way about women? You’ve gone on a date and had a good time, but there was no chemistry? I think it works both ways. Sometimes, there is something specific that men do, but the woman doesn’t want to tell them what it was so they will just say no chemistry.
I’ve declined second dates and said no chemistry when in fact the reasons were:
1. Creepy/Desperate behavior — insisting that we go back to his place for drinks. I don’t mean asking once and letting it go, I mean insisting. Or when a guy told me he hadn’t had sex in 10 years and he’d eat his right arm to get me into bed.
2. Negative Disposition — this is probably the biggest reason, I don’t go on second dates. I generally have a very positive and upbeat outlook. I’ve gone on dates with lots of guys who are so negative about life, relationships and women. Sometimes I wonder if they ever like women as they talk about other women with such disdain. I am often stunned when these guys want to go out again, but I say no way. Being with a person who is so negative brings me down. In fact, one of my requirements for a man is that he be happy with himself and his life. I don’t care what he does (as long as it’s legal of course!), he just needs to feel good about himself and his contributions and he needs to feel good about relationships. The thing is, really negative people often don’t know how negative they come across to others, but it is real turn off.
Men Who Don’t Really See You – this one is hard to explain but I think men feel it too. But sometimes you can tell, that the man is relating to you as you but as what his ideal woman is. You notice he’s not really listening to your responses. You get the feeling that you can’t really be yourself with this person because it’s not you he wants to get to know.
Too Much Chemistry– Yes, I have actually declined a second date with a guy that I had too much chemistry with because I knew it would be a disaster for me. I had only felt that way about one other guy and I was a wreck. I never wanted to feel that way again. So, I was honest and told the guy that I didn’t want to go out with him a second time because I felt too much chemistry and believe it or not, he was so gracious and said that he understood and he thought it was smart that I was taking care of myself.
Paula says
I’ve never posted here, but read everything everyone says and I really want to weigh in on this comment.
The guy I’m currently seeing? I had ZERO chemistry toward him for the first…3,4, maybe 5 dates? I went on a second date with him only because our first date was fun and relaxed and interesting. But there definitely weren’t any sparks for me.
This went against everything in had always thought about dating which was that there should be chemistry from the get go. And if there wasn’t then the relationship was destined to fail.
I can honestly say now, after 7 months, he is the single most amazing man I’ve ever met and there is so much chemistry that I don’t know what to do with it half the time.
Moral of my story: don’t knock it til ya try it. Chemistry can develop and knock your socks off if you give it a chance to.
SparklingEmerald says
BTDT – Just as people have different “attachment styles” and “love languages”, I think some (but very few) can “learn to feel attraction” and others’ cant.
You said “Don’t knock it, til ya try it”. Many of us have tried it many times, and just know it isn’t for us.
Usually I just end up feeling guilty for leading a guy on, and have had some pretty angry responses.
Also, with the 3 date rule, being pretty much the norm, trying to give it 5 or 6 dates is pretty unrealistic. Once a guy that I am “giving a chance to”, starts pawing at me, the feeling goes from lukewarm, to YUCK !
Since it is an unspoken rule that the 3rd date is the “sex date”, it is unrealistic for a woman to give a man 5-6 “chances” if she’s not attracted, unless of course she decides to have sex with him as part of giving him a chance.
Of course there’s always the option of “giving him a chance” without giving him sex, and then he will dump YOU between dates 3-6. Problem solved.
Julia says
Great answer Evan!!!!! Every time someone brings up what PUAs or manosphere bloggers have to say I simply say “Irrelevant. You don’t want to date those guys anyways, let them screen themselves out.”
Frimmel says
Evan is once again hard to disagree with. If you’re going to read dating advice for the opposite gender read the advice aimed at the ones you want to date. How do you think I ended up here?
I also agree with Michael in #1.
I would add that younger men are much more at the mercy of their urges and have neither the experience or means for the type of pursuit the romantic comedies push. They are much more prone to ‘puppy dog’ type behaviors that just don’t work on any women. At the risk of reducto ad absurdem the advice to get her to pursue you is essentially “be in control and don’t be needy.”
Angie says
I LOVE Doc Love on AskMen. (He’s the only dating columnist I read regularly, besides Evan’s blog). The above synopsis of his dating advice is completely off. He doesn’t tell men to disappear. In fact, his advice is geared towards “nice guys” (and YES, young nice guys!) on how to be more successful with women. It’s not The Game and it’s not meant to be a power play.
He advises men to wait 10 days between getting a woman’s phone number/first meeting to ask her out, only because he believes most women will say yes and he often states that “Gold-diggers” (self-explanatory) and “Serial Daters” will have lost interest by this time, but a woman with actual interest will still be interested 10 days later. He also takes about cues women make if they are interested, and that the ideal woman is a “Flexible Giver” (a woman who “gives” as much as she expects to receive), which I think Evan, you’d agree with. He doesn’t advise men in relationships to disappear. He advises men who have just met a desirable woman to not call the very next day and to play it cool at first, to save themselves both money and time on girls who aren’t interested. (He has yelled at guys who said they waited 3 or 4 weeks b/c he said that by this point, those guys are being jerks who don’t seem interested.)
S.E. – Did you read through AskMen or did you just read a couple articles?
And, yes, I think The System works if the man is the more interested party. I think “be cool” is good advice if you are the MORE interested person, because Doc Love is telling guys: “If she isn’t interested, move on” and that the only way you can tell that is by being cool and seeing if she comes to meet you halfway and not overwhelming her in the process.
Doc Love: Wait 10 days and ask her out. If she says yes, take her on a nice date and be a gentleman. Flirt. If she’s into you, she will give you cues. If she gives you the cues, walk her to the door. Lean in to give her a good night kiss if you are feeling it. If she likes you, she’ll give you her lips and kiss you back. If she doesn’t, she’ll give you the cheek. If she kissed you, you’re in. Call her for a second date. No games there. I think it’s relatively fair advice to young men who want to find a great girlfriend, the same way Evan’s advice is fair to women who want to find a great boyfriend.
Evan Marc Katz says
Angie, sounds like Doc Love is right about many things – except for a few important ones:
“Doc Love: Wait 10 days and ask her out”. Bullshit.
Let’s play a game for a second, Angie. You had a great time talking to some guy for an hour at a party. He gets your number and calls you the next day to make plans. Do you suddenly like him less? Think he’s needy? No, you’re THRILLED that this guy for whom you felt great chemistry is a man of his word and is making the effort you hoped he would. His call to you doesn’t change your mind about him in the least.
And that’s the thing about the 3 day rule or 10 day rule or any such arbitrary things – they are GAMES and they are INEFFECTIVE.
If a woman likes you, you can call her the next day and it will be the best thing you ever did. If she DOESN’T like you, your next day call will make you look like a needy stalker. But then again, if she doesn’t like you, the call in 10 days won’t be very effective either.
JD says
Doc Love didn’t make that rule for no reason. He understood that women desire what seems out of reach and devalue what seems easy.
Evan, you counter with a scenario where a woman really likes a guy, but in that scenario, she’s excited to hear from him whether it’s one day or 100. The guy’s tactics don’t matter if the woman is enthralled.
It’s the case where she’s on the fence that matters, and in that case, the experience of a lot of men says that patience pays.
SparklingEmerald says
Hi JD – I’m the original letter writer (wrote this in about 2-3 years ago).
I am now happily engaged, getting married next year !
IMHO experience “on the fence” for me has meant “not really into him”. I have NEVER gone from “Myeah” to “Yeah ! ” (but I have gone from “Yeah !” to “Myeah” )
When I have been “on the fence” about a guy, I never developed big feelings for him regardless of how he acted. If he tried the cool, indifferent act, if he played the doting, smitten school boy, or if he tried some in between tactic. I think that if some men lose out after being, attentive, thoughtful, chivalrous, etc. they will blame the failure on THAT behavior, but if they act like a jerk, bad-boy, aloof dude and THAT doesn’t work, they won’t attribute the failure to their stupid games playing, but just chalk it up to “women are bitches, women are irriational” etc. Then they can justify future bad behavior.
My advice to men, if a woman acts, on the fence, indifferent etc., MOVE ON ! If a woman acts interested, enthusiastic, etc. DON’T play those stupid games. Those stupid games don’t make dis-interested girls interested, they only make some INTERESTED girls lose interest. (Or the really interested girl might stick around, but only because she REALLY IS INTO YOU, in SPITE of the stupid games, not BECAUSE of them, but she’ll end up being a drama queen because of your bad behavior)
Remember earlier I told you I have never gone from “Myeah” to “Yeah” but is has gone in the opposite direction ? I have started off VERY interested in some men, but jerk-like behavior is what made made me lose interest.
My fiance pursued me with purpose from the very beginning. We met online. He initially wrote to me online. I responded right away, he replied back right away. We enjoyed daily e-mail exchanges until the day we met face to face. I was very excited about him BEFORE we met for the first time. He led with confidence (without coming off as arrogant) and I responded to his every advance with immediate enthusiasm.
I NEVER gave him any “Rules” BullShit (that bullshit book for women who tells women to manipulate men by playing stupid games), he never manipulated me with push-pull games, fake indifference, etc. Neither one of us wondered where we stood for a single second. I would even go as far to say that we became an “insta-couple”. Even before he officially asked me to close my match.com account (6 days after we met) we were an “un-official” couple.
Yes, he is handsome. Yes I was immediately attracted. His direct pursuit of me made me want to be with him MORE, not less. Besides being attracted to his raw physical features (his nicely built up arms, his masculine facial features) what really drew me in was that warm, open, friendly countenance, the way his face absolutely lit up in that “I just can’t help myself” manner when he first laid eyes on me and that twinkle in his eye. If he had tried to affect some cool, aloof, “I couldn’t care less” attitude, I would have been turned off, and not gone out with him again. If he played hot and cold games, I’d be gone as soon as he went cold. I would have been disappointed, but I would have moved on if I got the faintest indication that he “just wasn’t that into me”
Acting like an a-hole or a bitch rarely wins anyone over, who isn’t into you to begin with, but it can turn someone OFF, who started off really interested.
Chivon says
I agree with Evan @ 5
If a guy takes 10 days to ask me out, I’d already have assumed that he isn’t interested, or that maybe I’m his backup girl – maybe his other dates from Days 1 to 9 didn’t work out and I’m next up on the roster. Also, the longer the wait, the more interest and attraction fades…
“If a woman likes you, you can call her the next day and it will be the best thing you ever did. If she DOESN’T like you, your next day call will make you look like a needy stalker. But then again, if she doesn’t like you, the call in 10 days won’t be very effective either.”
Exactly!
michelle says
“If a woman likes you, you can call her the next day and it will be the best thing you ever did. If she DOESN’T like you, your next day call will make you look like a needy stalker”
Hence the problem, most men cannot discern whether a woman is romantically interested or just being nice.
Most young men and women (and lots of olders ones too!) haven’t strengthened their boundaries and therefore maturity levels. If ‘rules’ help guide them to do that, what’s the harm? 10 days seems awfully long though, and not sure, but I think a lot of women know about the 3 day rule, so buck the system and call in 2 or 4 days, haha…
Frankly, all the ‘advice’ is the same in the big picture, it’s just packaged in different ways with different emphasis on different aspects and different styles. I think it’s a matter of who resonates most with each individual person’s preferences.
SparklingEmerald says
[email protected]
http://www.yourtango.com/experts/julie-ferman/give-shot-guys-who-think-youre-hot
It’s true that men have the dilemma of not knowing if a girl is into them or just “being nice”. To add to the confusion, women are encouraged to go out with a man even if they don’t feel instant chemistry. This isn’t to “be nice” but there is a school of thought that a woman can develop attraction for a man over time (as long as she isn’t utterly repulsed by him to begin with) whereas a man can not.
The above article asked men and women this question about attraction growing over time, and according to the answers given 85% of the women asked, were able to develop attraction over time vs just 5% of the men. I must say, I doubt that this “survey” was conducted with any sort of scientific vigor, so I will have to take the results with a grain of salt. I have met women who claimed to not be initially attracted to their husbands/significant other, but I have never heard a man say that. I have heard many men claim that when they met the woman who is now their wife, that they knew immediately that they wanted to marry her. (My female friends who claimed to “learn to love” a man really seemed to be settling to me)
I don’t doubt that only 5% of men had attraction grow over time. (the only doubt that I would have is that even 5% of men really felt that way, my guess would have been zero) I struggle with the 85% of women and that is based solely on my limited experience, mine, and what has been reported to me by GF’s.
I decided to give a guy 3 dates to become attracted to him. He treated me like a princess. Eventually he asked me to be exclusive, and my attraction did grow a bit, but it was a pretty fragile attraction. One that could fade quite easily at the slightest annoyance. I felt bad about the whole thing. We broke up, he contacted me months later and and asked to try again. We went out, and we were back to ground zero as far as attraction was concerned. He wanted me to decide then and there that we were a couple again, and at first I wanted to say, let’s start over, and go out for awhile before we decide, but I just didn’t want to be that girl. The girl who strings a “nice guy” along, and ends up feeling no chemistry. Or the girl who agrees to be his girlfriend, but because it is such a fragile attraction becomes a bitchy, critical girlfriend. So it was a no go. I know I made him feel bad AGAIN. And that in turn made me feel bad.
I also started feeling a surge of attraction for someone on date 3. (I decided to let it grow) He pulled back. He started being the guy who texts me occasionally, and asks me out once in a blue moon. Attraction faded again, because he pulled back.
I am really beginning to think that there needs to be fairly strong mutual initial attraction –not neccesarily a Tsunami wave, but I should at least be excited to see him again, and not thinking “maybe I should give him a chance”.
Sigh, too much attraction and I let the guy treat me like crap. Too little initial attraction, it grows just enough so I get into a relationship, then I become the crappy girlfriend.
I feel like Goldilocks, except that I never get that “just right” initial feeling. It’s either too hot, or too cold.
michelle says
I would also add KUDO’S to anyone that is curious enough to seek out information to learn and/or do better.
Jackie H. says
It is hard to wade through all of the advice, but my rule of thumb is actually having an “AHA” moment when I read advice…like it’s the answer to some questions that I have been asking if that makes sense….
John says
I do want a man to pursue me, but when he does, I will be increasingly receptive to him, and once a relationship has been established, I won’t mind taking the initiative when appropriate.
On the surface this sounds like a good theory. But reality speaks differently. The competition amongst women for men is another woman who doesn’t need to be in a relationship in order take the initiative. There are other women who will pursue the guy from the start. There are women who will do the things the OP mentions right from the get go and not 4 weeks in when they are in a relationship. Merely being receptive to a guys advances is just not enough. You need to bring more to the table immediately because there are other women who surely do.
As a guy, who the heck do you think I will be more likely to commit to- the OP or another woman who shows some fortitude and goes for it? The degree of difficulty and return on investment are alive and well in the dating world. If a woman thinks she can wait until she is in a relationship in order to do these things, she will lose out to the woman who does this upfront.
Evan Marc Katz says
@John – You go out on a great first date. It lasts for four hours. You kiss at the end of the night.
I’m guessing you call her the next day to say, “I had a great time. Let’s do that again.” She says yes.
You have a great second date. It lasts four hours. You mess around back at your place for an hour.
I’m guessing you call her the next day to say, “I had a great time. Let’s do that again.” She says yes.
You have a great third date. It lasts four hours. You spend the night at her place, but don’t have sex.
I’m guessing you call her the next day to say, “I had a great time. Let’s do that again.” She says yes.
You have a great fourth date. It lasts four hours. You want to have sex. She says that she only sleeps with men who are her boyfriends. You realize that you like her more than any woman you’ve met in the past two years and agree to become exclusive with her. You have sex, spend the night, have breakfast the next day, and call her as soon as you leave her to say how happy you are.
Where’s the part where she has to call you?
That’s right. She doesn’t. If you like her, you’ll follow up with her – as long as she’s warm, flirty, receptive, and fun.
Michael17 says
Keep in mind that a lot of the PUA advice out there is “newbie” advice. Guys who are making horrible mistakes with women (being too giving or complimentary towards women before it is warranted and hoping that it leads to a relationship with them) are being told to do the opposite. The hope is that the advice will stop this guy from making the mistakes he has been making, and that the guy will eventually reach a balance.
In reality S.E., most of the men you want to date want a girl who makes it clear that she likes him. If he takes you out on a date, express your enthusiasm. Return his calls and texts promptly. And every guy wants to date women who treat him with respect. If a guy goes through the trouble of taking you out and you’re not interested after, don’t just ignore him. Kindly get back to him instead. That type of decency from women unfortunately seems to be less common than not. We men are taught to shrug being ignored off, take the high road, and move on, but that type of behavior does get old.
Meanwhile though, I do hope (for selfish reasons too) that women will consider their own dating strategies. One reason why EMK does so well (besides that he gives good advice), is that many women do have these huge blind spots, such as not really giving guys a chance (i.e., putting too much emphasis on first-date chemistry) and expecting the relationship they end up in to be like it is in the rom-coms.
PS: I have a rule, and it is called The 24-Hour Rule. If you get a girl’s number you need to call within 24 hours. I am thinking of revising that rule though, to the 12-Hour Rule. Haha.
michelle says
When doing it on your own, it can be like drinking out of fire hydrant. A lot goes over your head until you run into the situation, different things resonate at different times of our life.
That’s probably the advantage of a coach, they can give you the advice you need at the time you need it without being overwhelmed by other stuff that doesn’t really apply at that time.
Fusee says
Spot on, as usual!
Years ago I also came across all this “advice”, as I was confused about dating in the US, and painfully trying to understand what was going on here. What all the advice showed me is that molding a behavior based on “rules” or cultural expectations was not going to work for me. I am not a sheep, I have my own values and principles, and I was looking for someone likely-minded.
I decided to behave in dating as I was planning on behaving in marriage. And conversely I decided to only accept dating behaviors that I was going to be willing to accept in marriage. So I ditched the guy who did not return calls or emails. I ditched the guy who could not wait a few weeks for sex (well, he kindly selcted himself out : ). I ditched the desperate clingy one who said “I love you” after two weeks. And I ditched the controling one as well.
After all, if I wanted a husband who will be communicative, patient, interdependent, and fair, why would I date the opposite? Yes, I do not care for men who follow “rules” about making you wait for a call, then rush you for sex. As a commenter on another thread last year had nicely put it: if you have a 3-date rule, I have a no-second-date rule : )
I found a man who never read that BS, and who treated me the way he wanted to be treated from the very first meeting: with respect and trust. At the end of our first date, he told me he would call the next day, and guess what? He called the next day. Now that we’re planning our wedding, guess what? He continues to do what he says he will do. This is how mature men behave.
Nicole says
@ John 10
“as a guy, who the heck do you think I will be more likely to commit to- the OP or another woman who shows some fortitude and goes for it? The degree of difficulty and return on investment are alive and well in the dating world. If a woman thinks she can wait until she is in a relationship in order to do these things, she will lose out to the woman who does this upfront”
my comment:
it’s not a matter of chosing the woman who is in for everything first (before other women)
it all depends on the way a woman presents herself. If she shows her feminine side, her self-Worth and interest in the guy, I think that – if the guy is looking for a serious relationship – he may want to pursue her at least at the beginning.
I know many women – who in desperate search for a boyfriend – do “everything” upfront just in a very insecure way to “secure” the guy. But it will just work for a short time if the guy is merely looking for a fling.
Nicole says
@ Michael17 11
I agree with the fact that women shall be less superficial when they chose to dismiss a guy after one date because of lack of chemistry.
But in any case, if a girl acts like this, in the end, you would not like to date a woman acting so shallow , right?!
so, if we are all adults who wish to date people mature enough to understand that chemistry on the first date is not a predictor of a healthy relationship or of real compatibility, then, we shall take into account that those (women or men) who act superficially are not the kind of people we wish to have a relationship with.
Ruby says
Michael17 #11
” One reason why EMK does so well (besides that he gives good advice), is that many women do have these huge blind spots, such as not really giving guys a chance (i.e., putting too much emphasis on first-date chemistry) and expecting the relationship they end up in to be like it is in the rom-coms.”
Men, of course, do this too, although they are not expecting the “rom-com” as much as they are the sexual fireworks.
Dating advice is helpful, but the best advice always comes from one’s own gut, kind of like Jackie H said about the “AHA moment.” I do think that good dating advice helps you to find that.
Karmic Equation says
@John 10
I usually see the man’s POV, but on this I will have to disagree with you. This guy explains my reasoning better than I can, on why a girl shouldn’t initiate or pursue: https://web.archive.org/web/20170916224831/http://www.thefrisky.com:80/2012-09-05/guy-talk-the-real-reason-women-shouldnt-make-the-first-move/
I’m already going to spoil the guy with my uncanny understanding and tolerance of their guy-ness. The least my guy is going to do is going to pursue to keep me happy 😉 I don’t think that is too much to ask. In the long run, we both have more fun that way, in the beginning. And as the OP writes, once the relationship is agreed to, I don’t have any problems initiating.
@Tim
I’m one of those women for whom online dating would not work as you indicate, because while I’m attractive IRL, I’m very unphotogenic. All the stats that I have to put on the site would filter me out of most men’s filters. I look younger than my age and I weigh more than I look, so much so I was hit on a mid-20’s guy last weekend while shooting pool. That would NEVER happen to me online, sad to say.
I would say if online dating doesn’t work for you, you might want to try dating IRL. Be authentic and vulnerable (read this article: . Easier said than done. But the take away is that a guy who is unafraid to show his vulnerability is a confident man. That’s a turn on to most women.
Rose says
I agree with Evans posts 5 and 12.
Re instant chemistry. Well how has that worked for you so far?
Karmic Equation says
Oops. Tim response should have gone to the other post on Online Dating. My allergies are messing with my mind! Sorry!
TheProdigy says
I just took a glance at AskMen, and that site is filled with a bunch of garbage. It just turns awkward and shy men into sulry and rude people most women really don’t want to deal with.
@Michael: It’s just you. Online dating was easy, if not addicting. If women have their guard up, it’s you. I had a lot of success and enjoyed the experience up until I met the woman who was right for me and I married.
I think most dating advice sites are BS. You’re not going to learn how to be anyone other than yourself by reading a few words on a screen or out of a book. Whatever charade you concoct will be short lived as the real you comes out over time.
The reason why I enjoyed reading EMK blog (and still do) is because it doesn’t tell you how to “double your dating” or “be irrestible to the other sex”. It usually just gives you different perspectives, shines the light down all the available paths, and tells you to go down the one that’s best for you.
Makes for quality reading.
Rose says
John, you may well go for and like it when the other women shows fortitude That will only ever get you FWB or she will end up being the leader and social director of the realtionship. If what you want is FWB or to be led around by a woman and that works for you then keep doing what your doing as that is obviously working for you. Only you know what you want and what is or has worked for you.
Sally says
@Michael 17
You have it completely right about women, present company excluded.
Too bad I suspect you are much younger than me! 🙂
JB says
Doc Love is a cluless idiot who’s about 65-70 yrs old and hasn’t dated since he grew his mustache in 1972. (Google him, take a look. Would any man take dating advice from that?) When I first read his stuff I laughed and said “how can anyone PAY for this garbage?” Pure comedy! He used to say “get a womans HOME phone # or you have nothing”…LOL He’s no more a doctor of love than Gene Simmons is. Sure wait 10 days to 2 weeks after you get a woman’s # online see how that works for you. Grown men don’t follow Doc Love but I’m sure there’s enough goofballs on the internet that will pay for his system that’s for sure.
John says
Evan @12
After date #1 in your scenario I also go out on a first date with another woman. It isn’t unheard of to date more than 1 person at a time. SO I go on date #1 with woman #2. I call her and say I had a great time and say lets do that again. She agrees. We go out on date #2. She calls me after date#2 and says she had a great time. She invites me to dinner at her place for date #3. We don’t have sex but we fool around. I thank her the next day for a great meal. She then proceeds to text me the next few days on her own without prompting from me.
Now if all this is going on with woman #2 as well as with woman #1 in your scenario then I have a decision to make because I am not good at juggling for more than a few weeks. Who do I choose? Woman #2 because she took way more initiative and showed an investment in me.
When you meet multiple people you eventually have to decide which one to choose. In your scenario, that’s fine and dandy if there wasn’t any other woman in the picture. I am sure in your dating days you dated more than 1 girl at a time on occasion and you eventually had to choose. Same thing here. All things being equal, the girl who shows initiative and investment in me, will be the one I most likely choose to pursue something with.
Evan Marc Katz says
@John – A woman calling me never convinced me to be more into her. In fact, studies (see: “Have Him at Hello” by Rachel Greenwald) indicate that men DEVALUE women who call or initiate texts early on.
I can verify that, in general, men choose women based on attraction and feeling – how did I feel when I was around her? Which is to say that a woman doesn’t NEED to call a guy if the guy likes her. It may turn YOU on, but you also may be the exception to the rule. Most men like to DO the courting, not be courted.
Tom10 says
Michael17 #1
“our experience is that you [women] have to be feeling “chemistry” on the first date (which has little to do with looks) or there just won’t be a second date.”
I actually agree with Ruby with this one. Guys notice chemistry too but it’s to do with sex, not a first date. Basically — and I hate to be crude — our penis works really well, or doesn’t work so well according to how much chemistry there is. It’s like a barometer. If there’s a lot of chemistry we can go again, and again, and again despite being hung-over / tired etc. If there’s no chemistry it’ll be a lot of work to go just once. I agree that it’s not necessarily linked to looks — it’s just one of those things at an animal level that’s either there or not. Like every other person out there I’ve chased this white-hot chemistry, and found it twice. The first girl dumped me, and I didn’t like the other enough generally to commit. One of the biggest things I’ve learned from this blog is not to become a slave to chasing this chemistry. Some is required obviously but it shouldn’t be the be all and end all.
Women seem to be able to identify if it’s there or not from the outset – I don’t think guys can do that, maybe it’s because we are attracted to far more women, than women are men. I really don’t know how a guy can overcome it if women keep saying it’s an issue — Karmic maybe? Would working-out / addressing sartorial style etc. improve a guy’s chemistry quotient? When women say there’s no chemistry is it simply just a nice way of saying “I’m not attracted to you,” or is it a deeper feeling?
Evan
“How do I make sense of all the different dating advice out there?”
Well I suppose it’s like anything in life, one has to do some research and then make a sensible decision based on the information obtained. If you are looking for a cosmetic operation you will examine the previous work of the surgeon. If you are looking for an architect you will examine his previous projects to see the quality of his work. We should be listening to people who have a proven track record of success in their chosen field — like you do.
John says
Evan @27
I guess I wasn’t included in that study. I would never devalue a woman if she called me or invited me out on a date in the early stages. If I am the exception rather than the rule in that regard, then so be it. I think its a huge turn on if a woman courts me as much as I court her. I love it when we both kind of make plans, both take turns initiating calling and texting. I am surprised to hear that would make me the exception. Now I see why some women cant figure men out. If that study you mention is true, I cant figure men out either.
Brenda says
[email protected] (and 27): that’s exactly how my now husband pursued me when we were dating. We joke that he kept calling and asking me out and I just kept saying yes except for the sex part. And since we enjoyed each other’s company so much (and obviously still do), he decided that he wanted to be exclusive, and then engaged and we married at 1 1/2 years. By the way, we are in our 50s, and have both been around the block a bit.
Michael17 says
EMK #27 and Tom10 #26: I can only speak for myself here and yes, I do choose women based on attraction and feeling. But I also think men are lot more “linear” thinkers than most women are.
We can make a list of things we want in a woman (cute, smart, *nurturing*, high-character, good dresser, good hygiene) and if a woman meets those requirements then by golly we will be interested. Right from the very beginning. In fact, every time I have *not* felt chemistry with a woman I was able to pinpoint why.
My experience is that women don’t work that way when it comes to attraction. You can put a “great guy” in front of a woman (good-looking, smart, successful, interested, kind) and she still very well might not be feeling it after Date 1 and if she isn’t feeling it there is no Date 2. It’s not so much that the woman’s “standards” are too high–you could put someone who is “not such a great guy” in front of the woman (not so smart, not so good-looking, not so kind) but it is quite possible that there will be chemistry, and she WILL want to see him again.
My point Tom10 is that how women feel chemistry is a lot harder to explain than how we men feel chemistry.
EMK, I am going to guess that a big part of what you do with clients is convince them to give the “great guys” a chance even if the woman isn’t feeling that much chemistry after an early date. Am I correct?
*********EMK #27: If I am into a woman, I WILL call, text, and set up the date. HOWEVER, I do need her to let me know she is into me. This can be a “I had a really good time tonight!” text if she didn’t make it so clear during the date, and it also has to be prompt and enthusiastic follow-up to my communication–even if she doesn’t initiate. I HAVE decided not to call a woman again because I suspected she just wasn’t into me.
Julia says
@EMK #12 And this is exactly what happened when I met my boyfriend. It was like, between all this calling and asking me out it clicked “this is what Evan is telling me.” When a guy is into you you literally have to do nothing. I just said yes, always thanked him, appreciated him, kissed him (many many times) and acted feminine.
Selena says
@Tom10
Women seem to be able to identify if it’s there or not from the outset — I don’t think guys can do that, maybe it’s because we are attracted to far more women, than women are men. And, When women say there’s no chemistry is it simply just a nice way of saying “I’m not attracted to you,”
I think this is true of many, if not most women. Not everyone is holding out for white hot instant sexual attraction, but they do want enough attraction to be able to kiss the guy. And who wants to hurt another person’s feelings by bluntly stating you don’t find them attractive enough to you?
Some women find that a man they thought was just *okay* looking at first, actually becomes more attractive in her eyes as she gets to know him better and likes him. I don’t know if that’s so comnon with men. I don’t think I’ve ever heard or read a man say, “I wasn’t all that attracted to her at first, but the more time I spent with her, the better looking she became to me.”
JustMe says
I don’t know if I would define it as “chemistry” but I have to feel a connection. Conversation is easy, we can laugh and joke, those kind of things.
SparklingEmerald says
Just me @ 30 – YES ! That’s it ! I don’t care how great looking a guy is, if the conversation doesn’t flow back and forth fairly easily, I just don’t feel it for a guy. Of course I’d have to be physically attracted to a guy to consider to continue dating him, but if we can’t talk and laugh easily together, what’s the point ? Once in a relationship, what do you think a couple is going to do more of ? Talk or sex ?
Angie says
@Evan 5 – I do agree that 10 days is a LONG time, but I also agree that waiting a few days builds the excitement a little (presuming you are excited).
Because texting is a huge part of dating, I find that most guys will send a text within 24 hours of getting your number just to say “Hey, it’s X. It was great to meet you!” or something of that nature, just to gauge the woman’s response.
I actually think 18-24 year old men are pretty clueless. First off, not all 18-24 year old women WANT a serious relationship or know what they want, so a little guidance never hurts. I also find a lot of “nice guys” in this age group will put certain women, often first loves or big crushes, on pedestals. I’d argue the people that have been picking on Doc Love that his advice has value for his niche audience. (He’s a clever writer, too). I don’t really think there is a need for “The System” or “The Rules” or “The Game”, but reading social cues, being a better date, knowing how to ask someone out or knowing when to walk away (especially when to walk away) is WHY there is a dating “industry” at all.
I’ve never read his book, but his column is entertaining and the point he reiterates over and over to his readers: “Her interest level isn’t high enough” (translation: “She’s just not that into you”).
@ Karmic Equation
Loved the Frisky link.
Amy says
Great question from the OP! I could have written this myself. Thanks for answering it, Evan.
[email protected]:
The “no chemistry” thing goes both ways. I have been on dozens of first dates with guys whom I would have happily gone out with a 2nd or 3rd time, even though I didn’t feel any particular chemistry with them right away. But guess what, they never asked for that 2nd date! A couple of times I have done something many dating experts advise against; I emailed or called the guy later to say “thanks” for a nice time. The couple of times I’ve done this, the guys said something like, “yes, I had a nice time too. Too bad there was no chemistry!” End of story. I’m guessing that whenever I don’t get a 2nd date, it’s because the guy was hoping to feel strong chemistry right away, and he didn’t, so he’s disinclined to ask, plan and pay for another date. Wanting to feel something on a first date is absolutely true for both genders.
Julia says
personally, the men I didn’t go out with again were usually men who appeared needy, creepy or gay. I didn’t need to feel like jumping his bones when we first met but I did feel like if I knew I WOULD NEVER sleep with him then I shouldn’t go out with him again.
Still-Looking says
My dating life gets very busy at times and when I’m talking with a number of women, “out of sight, out of mind” becomes more than a saying.
If a woman replies warmly/enthusiastically to my texts and calls then I know she’s interested. If she texts or calls me, then I have a clear signal that she is interested.
If I begin to wonder if she is interested in me, then I lose interest very quickly and move on.
[email protected] expresses my view very well.
Rose says
It works the other way around too John re competition.if the woman is dating two or more men and what she wants is a man who knows how to and wants to pursue, romance and lead a relationship, she will pick the one who does that
So win/win really, you choose the woman who wants to pursue, chase and romance you.
And she chooses a man who wants to pursue, chase and romance her.
Most women want to be the ones being pursued and romanced I believe though and don’t want to be the one calling making, plans, picking the man up, initiating sex, leading the relationship, asking a man to marry her further down the line.
Or When it’s both taking turns, that is like a friends with benefits scenario. If romance and love is what a woman wants, which I believe it is when looking for a life partner then this take it turns FWB scenario will not work. IMAO all that gets you is a fuck buddy. And most women if they are honest do not want this.
So it’s about everyone deciding what they want and then either, pursuing and chasing and a man, being pursued and letting the man chase you, otrtaking it in turns.or and getting the right match for what you want.
Women who want romance, love and long term relationship, which I believe most do don’t need to chase a man as a man who wants this will pursue and chase them It is how nature has worked for years.
John says
Rose @38
It works the other way around too John re competition.if the woman is dating two or more men and what she wants is a man who knows how to and wants to pursue, romance and lead a relationship, she will pick the one who does that
I agree with you. Both people should do the pursuing and the courting. Maybe it came across as the woman should do all the courting. That’s not my position at all. Like everything else, it should go both ways. By the 3rd or 4th date, approximately 2 weeks have gone by. If during that time, the guy is the only one who initiates the calling, texting, planning, etc. then I would lose interest since it would appear to me that she has a low interest level or is just keeping me in orbit until a bigger and better deal comes along.
By the same token, if the girl is doing all the effort with her sweet good morning texts, being flirty with him, etc. and he isn’t taking some initiative, then I would expect her to not feel like she is being valued. I think both parties should be making the attempt at courting. Over the course of the initial couple of weeks, that is plenty of time for each person to do their part and give the green light they are interested. If it is one sided, then the giver will be tempted to explore other options to someone they think is more receptive to their advances. That’s for both guys and girls.
Again, if that thought process makes me the exception to the rule, then it is what it is. I just know from own dating/relationship success and failures that when it is one sided, it fizzles out quickly. When both people do the courting and the emotional investing, it leads to something more substantial.
Evan Marc Katz says
@John – Here’s the difference between us – and I don’t mean it in a negative way:
You have stated that you would not call a woman back if you weren’t sure she were interested on the date. You have stated that you would stop making a proactive effort if she weren’t making a proactive effort.
Personally, the only way I know if she’s interested is if I call her for a second date. If she says yes, she’s interested.
You’re putting the onus on a woman to DO something, when really, she doesn’t have to do anything except return your calls, texts, emails quickly and respond to requests for dates with enthusiasm.
You may think you’re “weeding out” lazy disinterested women, but you’d be wrong.
You’re weeding out women who are waiting for a confident, masculine man who believe in themselves so much that it doesn’t even occur to them that the answer would be no.
Be that man, instead of complaining that women don’t text you first.
michelle says
It’s obviously difficult when someone is preceived to ‘reject’ us. I always liked the phrase “Rejection is God’s Protection” 🙂
Selena says
@JustMe #33
Good point. Some people use the word chemistry to describe the hormonal ‘zing’ one feels toward some people and not others. I consider that simple sexual attraction. Other people use the word chemistry to describe personality compatibility – the ease of talking, laughing, relating to each other.
I suspect when someone says there is “no chemistry” with a first date it can mean either there wasn’t enough sexual attraction, or personality attraction- or both- for them. Giving “no chemistry” as a reason for not wanting to go out again is kinder than pointing out perceived deficits in someones looks, personality, character. I also think sometimes both men and women know on a gut level the other person would not be a good match for them even without being able to pinpoint exactly why, so why not give “no chemistry” as the reason?
Tom10 says
Thanks Selena — for many people chemistry seems to be synonymous with basic attraction and ‘a connection’ so. For me, they are different concepts. I’m probably attracted to about 60% of women, but only feel that hot primal ‘chemistry’ with a very small % of women. Yes I’m aware that the ‘growing attraction’ phenomenon is unique to women.
In that case Michael17 it seems the only thing you can do is keep working on appearance and demeanor so – because as we know so well from Evan – we can’t change women, we can only change ourselves!
Rose says
John.
When it’s both taking turns, that is like a friends with benefits scenario. If romance and love is what a woman wants and most men evatually which I believe it is when looking for a life partner then this take it turns FWB scenario will not work. IMAO all that gets you is at most friendship ot friendship and a fuck budy. And most women if they are honest do not want this. Some claim to want that and some do.
This appears to be what you want at this moment is your life nothing wrong with that if both people are open and honest to what they want and are looking for and are on the same page. Wanting and looking for the same thing. Great everyone is happy.
Women who do not want that though and who want romance, love and long term relationship, which I believe most do don’t need to chase a man as a man who wants this will pursue and chase them It is how nature has worked for years.
It’s all about being honest and finding the right match at the end of the day to wants needs and desires. As without honesty all that happens is people hurt other people or get hurt.
michelle says
#42, and to add onto that, in this day and age of on line dating, the numbers of times there is a date zero (meeting someone for the first time) are way way more than they are then when there wasn’t on line dating. So naturally there’s going to be more rejection. We’re humans, we can chat on line/electronically til the cows come home, it means nothing until we meet in person. Understanding men and women and how we each operate is a big piece of the puzzle. And to your point, we’re not going to change anyone but ourselves, and ‘change’ I’m referring to is learning how all this works and accepting it.
Selena says
@Tom
I’ve only felt theat instant, high intensity, knock-your-socks off kind of sexual attraction a handful of so number of times. And it never resulted in a relationship, or much of one as it turned out. In fact, months or years later I sometimes wondered what I ever saw in the guy. 😉
Which is why I think when people speak of chemistry, or no chemistry, it can mean almost anything. It doesn’t necessarily mean they need to feel an instant hormonal high, it could mean they didn’t feel sufficiently sexually attracted. Or they didn’t feel the ‘click’ that comes with personality attraction. Maybe the conversation was dull, forced, awkward, too full of uncomfortable pauses. Maybe it became clear the two people had nothing in common, or had dissimilar values. Maybe one talked to much about an ex, leading the other to think they weren’t over that relationship yet. Or worse, they were in the bitter after-breakup phase, distrustful and gender bashing. Mabybe someone came across as immature, or boardline obnoxious, bored, disinterested, drank too much. Stating lack of chemistry is easier than going into details with a virtual stranger one doesn’t want to see again.
I think it’s hard to not let rejection of any kind sting, but one way to look at it is the other person weeded themselves out, before you had to do it.
Michael17 says
You indeed can’t change other people, you can only change yourself. Which is why a lot of guys turn to the PUA Community…there is a way that many women date (for better or for worse) and if you want to be successful dating women, then you have to appeal to that.
I definitely do have the occasional “What the hell do women really want??” moments. When the woman doesn’t want to see me again after the first date, I get some variation of “great guy but no chemistry” after the first date. Thing is though, I have friends, I’m successful, I’m not-bad-looking, and I’m modest too (laughs). And I have my share of dating and sexual experience. And I think I screen for the right things. The women I go for are cute sure, but they are also nurturing, and high-character. Before we meet up there is at least one, often two or more, phone calls that flow quite well. And my pictures are accurate too! (I meet most women online.) And to the best of my knowledge I don’t have any annoying tics. I’m not pushy or anything either.
So I do wonder if the women who are single (and who don’t want to be) have unrealistic expectations. Personality-wise I am basically a nice guy. Or deep down, maybe there is just something wrong with me, in that for all I have going for me, the women have already decided “no”, and after only one meeting….
***************
Anyway, I would rather pursue a willing and enthusiastic woman. I don’t need her to initiate calls or texts, but I do need her to enthusiastically return my communication. So I agree with Evan in this regard.
GreatGal says
Rose 43,
Can you please explain how two people (after a few dates in which the man do most of the initiating) who take turns asking each other out, suggesting places to go and initiating texting equals FWB scenerio?
Just because you personally don’t find it romantic, doesn’t mean all women doesn’t find taking turns romantic.
If there are males out there who find taking turns to be a nice change as opposed to doing all the heavy lifting all the time (even after a few dates), then why jump to the conclusion that those males are NOT after a loving long-term relationship? If (maybe minority) of males wants to feel wanted too and find females who like to text first and suggest places that SHE would like to visit and have dates, why is that NOT Romantic for both sides?
Vanessa says
@ John 39
“I agree with you. Both people should do the pursuing and the courting.”
I agree with John here. To me it’s a sign of confidence in yourself and in the budding romance to take some initiative on both parts. I want to be able to let a guy know I’m into him, had fun, and would like to do future things with him just as much as I’d want him to let me know.
A while after my boyfriend and I started dating, I mentioned to him how refreshing it was that neither of us held to the ‘rules’ when we first started dating. He would contact me (call, text, email) when he would want to and vice versa. I enjoyed his regular communications and he stated he liked that I wasn’t afraid to contact him either. In his words, ‘I liked that you were confident enough to take the initiative and didn’t wait for me to always contact you. It showed you were interested in me and I liked that.’
I guess, according to the studies referenced, he’s an exception like John, thank goodness! I don’t think I could handle a guy who couldn’t appreciate my confidence to also make a move, who would want that?
Frimmel says
re John in #39 via Vanessa in #48–
‘I liked that you were confident enough to take the initiative and didn’t wait for me to always contact you. It showed you were interested in me and I liked that.’
I agree with John and totally agree with Vanessa’s boyfriend. If a woman is always waiting for me to call first, make plans etc, I start wondering if she actually likes me or thinks I’m simply ‘good enough for now.’ Do women want equality or chivalry?
Frimmel says
Evan in #49
You’re not wrong. But neither are the pick-up artists wrong. But neither of you is really talking about the sort of relationships I’m interested in.
But patterns established early are hard to break or adjust. If the woman is always passive and I’m always in control there isn’t a collaboration and I’m always responsible for everything. It’s how men end up in the dog house without realizing they’ve done something wrong. It is what I call ‘read my mind and do the right thing.’ It hardly ever works out well in the long run.
JustMe says
I don’t think I have ever felt “chemisty” on a first date. That only comes after I get to know someone better. Selena #42 describes the things that eliminate a 2nd date for me.
Evan #49
“Personally, the only way I know if she’s interested is if I call her for a second date. If she says yes, she’s interested.”
Thank you!
If I am interested I respond right away and I say yes every time you ask me, if I can. There are times when I have another committment but I will say “I would love to but I can’t then, can we choose a different date/time?”
I usually ask him out for date 3 or 4.
John says
Evan @49
You’re weeding out women who are waiting for a confident, masculine man who believe in themselves so much that it doesn’t even occur to them that the answer would be no.
Be that man, instead of complaining that women don’t text you first.
I hear your advice. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. This is my last comment on this topic. Perhaps I have discounted women in the past for not following up on their own. But I will say this. I live in a very populous area so there are hundreds if not thousands of single women in my dating radius. There are so many types of women. For every Rose (comment #43) that feels the guy should do the heavy lifting, there is a Vanessa (comment #48) who doesn’t mind taking initiative right away.
So if I was lucky enough to have a first date with Rose and then a first date with Vanessa who would I pursue? Vanessa, if she took the initiative since my odds of having a successful 2nd date with her are far greater than with Rose where it would be a crapshoot. It doesn’t make me devalue Vanessa- it makes me more into her since she is showing she is into me.
Since I live right in the NYC area, I can afford to pass up the girls that want me to be more proactive because there are plenty that will share the heavy lifting(calling or texting me on their own accord after the first date) . Maybe its geographical but I find plenty of them. It doesn’t make me less of a masculine guy. It just makes me a smarter dater by putting the odds in my favor.
Evan Marc Katz says
John,
Respectfully, it’s really not “heavy lifting” to call a woman you like. You’re turning it into some game or power play. It’s not. If you like her, call her. If you don’t like her, don’t call her.
Just don’t expect women to pursue you. Many of the BEST ones don’t feel the need to pursue – I should know: they’re my clients.
Your method is self-selecting and it rules out lots of women. I would think you’d have more power if you didn’t feel the need to put women in the pursuer role and just embraced the traditionally masculine role. You’re telling me you don’t have to. But that’s like a woman saying she doesn’t “have to” write a good online dating profile because her photos get plenty of attention. It’s flawed thinking. You’re gonna be the best dater, John, when you have the power to make every woman like you and want to go out with you again, so that 95% of the time when you call the next day, she says “yes” to a second date. You don’t need her to pursue you if she likes you, my friend.
Goldie says
@ Selena 45: “Stating lack of chemistry is easier than going into details with a virtual stranger one doesn’t want to see again.”
Exactly! My take on this is, “there was no chemistry” is probably code for ‘I didn’t like you enough to want to see you again, and I see no point in explaining to you what, exactly, I didn’t like, since you’re a total stranger that I met once.” Makes sense to me. Guys, would you rather have a woman give you a laundry list of everything you did wrong on date one, or just be told that there won’t be a date two, for reasons not stated? I once canceled a date and told the guy “this isn’t going to work”. It was a first date and I canceled it after receiving his text, which said “I can’t wait to meet you in person, and then we’ll make sweet love“. I texted back saying date is canceled, he replies, “I don’t understand. Why?” Did I really have to spell it out? How would it have made things better for him or me if I told him he was a creep?
It’s not like women are scatterbrained creatures who turn men down at random, and don’t know why they’re doing it. It’s just easier not having to explain things to a stranger. FWIW, I’ve been told that by a man myself, as well. Looking back, I really don’t want to know the specific reasons why that particular guy didn’t like me, as we were a pretty terrible match anyway. I’m just relieved that he felt no chemistry.
Cinnamon Girl says
@Brenda 29
Thanks for the encouragement! I am dating a guy I just met. The chemistry is good but he is trying to rush me to the bedroom. He seems to keep planing camping trips and all of that for “our” future but I am not there emotionally.
So it helps to hear about someone who waited a bit and the guy stuck around.
Weirdly with this guy. I really like him, but my friend G keeps popping into my head.. and i keep thinking I met her future mate.
Dave says
@ Evan, John, Frimmel, etc.
As a confident, take charge kinda guy who has no problem asking women out and getting to know them, I kind of get where John is coming from. It is nice sometimes for women to show initiative. And they do. It make me feel “desired” in a way I guess. And who doesn’t want that? I’m not bashing the “do nothing” or “mirroring” philosophy, just, from a man’s perspective (ok… my perspective…) when all’s equal, I’m more attracted to someone who shows some initiative rather than someone who I constantly have to reach out to (John’s “sort of” point way back in #10 and follow ups). But that being said, it is best when this initiative comes at least a few dates in – not right from the get go. Me = picky much? Yeah….I know…but just telling it like it is from my viewpoint.
Julia says
John-I know you say
“It just makes me a smarter dater by putting the odds in my favor.”
But does it? You are still single I assume so obviously it hasn’t worked that well. Maybe you are just dating for fun then? Which proves Evan’s point as well. Women shouldn’t have to pursue men, when they do it puts them at a huge disadvantage, leaving them often wondering where they stand. Men who want a woman pursue her, I know, I’ve experienced it. They don’t leave a woman wondering for a second how they feel about her. I wasn’t positive I wanted to go out with my BF on a second date but it showed so much interest in me I really could figure out a reason why I shouldn’t go out with him. His pursuit of me early on put us both in the position to be in a happy relationship. And guess what? 5 months later, I don’t just sit back. I still let him lead but if I want to talk, I call him. So don’t think your effort early on will set the tone.
Goldie says
Whoo boy, I keep reading on this blog how hard dating is for women in NYC, and John’s post is just another confirmation of that. I don’t know how I would’ve fared on the dating market if I had to shove other women out of my way to be the first to call a guy after a date or ask him out. Where I live, when I was dating 2 years ago, it was pretty simple. You go out once, if he doesn’t ask you out again, that means he’s not interested. You try to call him first or ask him out on a second date, you will come across as too needy and there won’t be a second date. Once I got the hang of it, it was pretty easy to just sit back and let the emails and texts roll in. I have to say this only holds true for the first few dates. I mean, it’s not like, if my boyfriend of 1.5 years stops emailing and texting me now, that he will never hear from me again. But for the first few dates, this seemed to be the game both sides were willing to play.
Cinnamon Girl says
@53 John
John,
I am confused by your remark. Please explain the subtext to me. By heavy lifting.. are you just talking about the women calling you, or do you really mean if there is no sexual fooling around on the first couple of dates you get bored.
I am sincere in my question. I am a very passionate woman. I miss sex tremendously. I just want to actually be in a reciprocal love relationship. The guy I just started seeing got wind of how passionate I am from a bit of kissing and “leaning” and now he wants to full steam ahead and I am not ready. I am always wondering.. I don’t want to be a tease, but I also don’t want to wake up feeling a little bit in love with some guy that I just don’t know well enough to be in bed with.
I think this current guy is going to take off if I don’t go forward at a pace too fast for me. I say too fast reluctantly, because I would love to be into the sex part.. I am just trying to avoid the broken heart part.
What do you think.. Give a little detail for those not as good at subtext.
Suzanne says
John I think your points are very valid. Unlike some of the other women, I was one who not only followed up with my husband after our first date, I was the one who actually asked him out on the first date. And you know what? He loved it. If I see someone I want, I let it be known in a not so subtle way. Prior to meeting my hubby, I had some good and bad outcomes by going that route.
So Evan just because I was very forward in my approach and didn’t wait for a guy to make many of the traditional moves, I still consider myself amongst the best women. Your comment stated that the best available women don’t need to pursue. I consider myself at that time I was single to be amongst the best with what I had to offer. So to suggest that I wasn’t high quality because I didn’t sit back and let the guy lead makes me cringe.
I have heard stories from my male friends and coworkers that women today are very aggressive both sexually and dating-wise. I guess I was ahead of my time. But them, like me, doesn’t make us slutty, or low quality or less worthy of a good guy. Based on the way the males here are responding, it seems there is a market for men who like when women court them right back.
Selena says
@ Goldie
I’ve never lived in NYC, but from reading forums it does sometimes seem to be a very different world than the rest of the country. 🙂
I always thought it was common to let men take the lead in early dating. If you tried to ‘chase’ one, you would chase him away more likely than not. lol. But after you got to know each other better, became more comfortable together, who cares who calls whom first? And if you manage to become an actual couple you don’t even think in terms of ‘rules’ or roles.
If someone thinks initiating calls, texts, emails is “heavy lifting”, I shudder to think what they are going to make of parenthood. 😉
Frimmel says
I think it interesting that John was admonished by Evan for turning things into a game or some sort of power play and then Julia come along and says Evan is right since it is a disadvantage for a woman to pursue.
Goldie in #54
“It was a first date and I canceled it after receiving his text, which said “I can’t wait to meet you in person, and then we’ll make sweet love“. I texted back saying date is canceled, he replies, “I don’t understand. Why?” Did I really have to spell it out? How would it have made things better for him or me if I told him he was a creep?”
Yes, it would have made it better for him. Since he said it in the first place he didn’t get or realize it was inappropriate and since you just dumped him without a word he is likely confused why his demonstration of confidence and boldness was ill received, “Don’t women like confidence?” So his takeaway isn’t, “Don’t presume you’ll get up her skirts on a first date. I went to far with the make love line and she thought it was creep,” but “Women are so confusing. What did I do?” He doesn’t learn a lesson because no lesson was given and he’s left to be awkward and confused and inappropriate with the next woman.
Evan Marc Katz says
Jesus, I don’t like where this thread is going.
Women, if you want to proactively call men, text men, ask out men, initiate the first kiss with men, offer sex to men, ask them to be exclusive, propose to them, pay for the wedding and plan the honeymoon, God bless you.
My only point is that you shouldn’t have to, since most men want to do these things and understand that these things are largely expected of them. I only observe the rules: I don’t make them.
Evan Marc Katz says
Seriously, Frimmel, if a guy can’t tell the difference between confident and creepy, he’s gonna have to just take his lumps until he figures out that a first date text about making sweet love is way on the creepy side.
Julia says
@Frimmel #63
Its not any of our jobs to teach people we are talking to or have gone out on a date with what they are doing wrong. If I had to teach every creep I ran into how not to be a creep I wouldn’t have hours in the day to do anything else.
And yes, I believe that if you fall prey to someone else’s game you are at a disadvantage. Being an authentic, feminine woman who only dates men who treat you well you are at an advantage. I don’t see how there is anything to debate here. Getting treated well-advantage, getting treated poorly=disadvantage.
John says
Cinnamon Girl @60
I am confused by your remark. Please explain the subtext to me. By heavy lifting.. are you just talking about the women calling you, or do you really mean if there is no sexual fooling around on the first couple of dates you get bored.
I am sincere in my question.
Cinnamon- I am not referring to sex at all. Maybe the phrase “heavy lifting” is too strong of a word. The gist of that means the girl to at the very least send me a text or phone call the next day if I paid for the first date which I always do. That’s all I would ask. Now presumably a few days would go by before the 2nd date took place. During that time, I will certainly text first to say hello or call at night to talk. I just like it when the girl will do the same to me also. If 5 days goes by between dates and she hasn’t texted or called me first during those 5 days, then I will assume she has a low interest level. And I will focus my attention on a girl that will reciprocate in kind. Now if the girl even offers to pay something by the 3rd date, then even more kudos. That’s what I mean by heavy lifting.
As for the sex, I am not referring to that at all. If I like a girl and she is courting me as much as I am courting her, then I am cool with going around the bases on her timeframe. And if she is aggressive and makes rounding the bases even faster, then that’s good too.
nathan says
Evan, dating isn’t a one sized fits all operation. John’s comments here are very reasonable, and multiple male commenters agree with his points – at least to some degree. You seem to act sometimes like every man is either a powerhouse alpha or else doesn’t get it. We all deal with this stuff differently. Like John, I regularly have decided that a lack of action of some form or another from a woman is a sign of either disinterest, or luke warm interest at best. And honestly, most of my pursing has ended in empty hands. The times I’ve been most proactive have led me nowhere because usually, they’re also the times when I’m most blind to what’s really present, and living on physical attraction and wishful thinking.
I’ve had plenty of good, long term relationships over the years. Including currently with a great woman who has no trouble stepping and sharing the leadership role. It’s not that I didn’t make the effort early on. I don’t here John, or a few others saying they want to be pursued. It’s a pretty small percentage of guys who are that far on active-passive scale. And actually, It’s that I wasn’t putting 110% in, and only getting something like an enthusiastic yes in response. Frankly, if a woman goes along with my views all or most of the time, it’s pretty dull. I don’t want a clone, nor do I want a mirror. Furthermore, I don’t think this is just a geography thing. It’s very common for folks to date multiple people while doing online dating. And if both parties don’t make a bit of effort to stand out and demonstrate some interest, then it’s going to be hard.
I’ve had dozens of women say yes to second dates over the years. At least 50 in the 10 years I did online dating. I’m a good conversationalist. I’m non-reactive, and not uptight. Generally, women enjoy my company. At least some of these women I went on second dates with knew pretty quickly that they didn’t want a relationship with me, but pushed the “what if card” and figured they’d have a good time, if nothing else. I’ve done the same with a few women over the years. It’s just how it is. Saying yes to multiple dates, going out and having a good time. Even making out sometimes doesn’t give you the full picture of what’s going on.
Oh, and Rose, the majority of marriages historically were about property, procreation, and/or social status. This whole men pursue for love thing is a modern notion. Less than a few hundred years old.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Nathan, who says, “I regularly have decided that a lack of action of some form or another from a woman is a sign of either disinterest, or luke warm interest at best.”
Sorry, buddy, but you’re wrong.
And not just cause I’m telling you that. Women are coming on this board and telling you that. They want you to claim them with your effort. And yet you and John and Frimmel are defending this under the guise of equality.
You have every right not to call back a woman after two good dates because you’re “unsure” about her, but what if you called her for a third date and she said “yes”?
Wouldn’t that indicate that she’s open to getting to know you better?
You’re basically conceding defeat without finding out for sure. There’s some protective mechanism in there. I don’t know what it is. But women do the exact same things – they cut off guys like you who are too passive. How does that feel? Not too good. So I have one really simple answer for you:
If you’re a guy and you want to see a girl? Call her. You’ll either get a yes or a no. Far better than falsely assuming the answer is no – when so many women want you to take the initiative and claim them.
There’s no downside to my approach. She doesn’t like you? She doesn’t call back. Big deal.
So why are you resisting? Seems to me that you’d rather be “right” and wait in vain for more women to be proactive, than to be “effective”, which is trying things my way.
Just because some women are proactive and you can sit back and wait for them doesn’t mean your way is as effective as mine, by the way. It just means a broken clock is right twice a day.
Goldie says
@ Frimmel #63, like Julia already said, it’s not my job to educate him. My job is to ensure as much safety for myself and my family as it is reasonably possible, while I’m out there searching for love. As soon as I find out that a man I’m about to meet face-to-face for the first time might be creepy or crazy, I owe it to myself and my children to cut off all contact as fast as I can. If he’s curious as to why, he can ask his therapist, which I am not.
michelle says
#50, women want chivarly (men and women are equal, and different, so that’s good enough) and we didn’t say ALWAYS waiting around for a man to initiate. We’re talking about the first few times.
Ignore what Evan is saying at your own peril. This is the way we are built as humans, men and women. It’s been that way for millions of years, ain’t about to change any time soon.
Ami says
Best quote ever!! “Real men don’t read AskMen.com.” ROTFLMAO!
John says
You have every right not to call back a woman after two good dates because you’re “unsure” about her, but what if you called her for a third date and she said “yes”?
Wouldn’t that indicate that she’s open to getting to know you better?
Evan I know I said I would stop posting on this but there is something that you are not realizing. You make it sound like if a woman goes out with you 2 or 3 times even though she doesn’t do any kind of initiating, that all is good and she has a high interest level and is open to getting to know me better. That is a very costly assumption in both time and money and ego. Maybe there is the occasional time that a woman sits back really does have a high interest level. Just like you can play blackjack and hit with a 20 and pull the ace. But if you play that way in the long run, you will lose most times.
Girls that never initiated with me many times agreed to go on 3 or 4 dates with me. And then many times they would invariably flake or disappear or just stop returning phone calls. And it wasn’t because I pushed for sex or was cheap or a douche. Its because they had a low interest level to begin with and they were waiting for a bigger and better deal to come along. So during that time I am out the cost of 3 or 4 dates, plus my lost time plus my bruised ego. So I changed my approach to only focus on women who are proactive and my experience completely changed for the better.
Once you get to read the tea leaves that when a woman doesn’t initiate, it means she has a low interest level. Sometimes a girl being proactive or sitting back is just a barometer of how a guy can tell what her true interest level is. I can tell you that girls that initiated things never flaked on me, never disappeared or stopped returning calls on me. If things ended it was because of other issue- not low interest level. And you state to Nathan “while you wait in vain for more women to be more proactive”. I don’t know about where Nathan is, but in NYC I am not waiting in vain. It happens all the time.
I know its your blog and I don’t want to be disrespectful, but almost all the males are against you on this one. And for a blog that tries to spell out to women what guys think, that’s a contradiction. I don’t see too many guys on here saying “Oh its a turn off when women try to ask me out or call me up because I like to do the pursuing”. The only male toeing that line is you.
Evan Marc Katz says
@John, you’re not being disrespectful at all. This is exactly how to debate in a comments section. I just think you’ve created a sort of closed feedback loop. A self-fulfilling prophesy.
You’re starting off with this assumption – and presuming that it’s true:
“Once you get to read the tea leaves that when a woman doesn’t initiate, it means she has a low interest level.”
I’m TELLING YOU THAT’S NOT TRUE. This is the cornerstone of all of my advice. Women don’t initiate for many, many, many reasons – you just ASSUME it’s because they’re not interested. Here are a few others:
-Because she generally doesn’t have to. Interested men have always pursued her so she never had to reach out.
-Because she’s traditionally feminine. She appreciates a man who knows what he wants and rewards him for his efforts with her warmth, appreciation and enthusiasm (btw, I never told you to go on a 3rd date with a woman who is cold and ambivalent. I’ve only told you that just because a woman isn’t calling you doesn’t mean she’s not interested)
-Because she’s been listening to my most popular advice from Why He Disappeared: Don’t Do Anything. My theory: if you want a man to show you he values you, let him make the effort for you. FAR too many women have turned themselves into men – calling, texting, reaching out, making plans, only to discover that the men have felt a) emasculated, b) turned off that she’s doing his job, c) that she was weak and needy, and d) that she singlehandedly kept the relationship alive with an ambivalent man because she was calling him to set up concert plans. Yet the second she stopped calling, he dropped off the face of the planet.
These are the reasons that women aren’t calling you, John. You think it’s cause they’re not interested.
I hope you can entertain the possibility that there’s more to it. Because once you do, and you assume that women are ALWAYS interested in you, that’s when you’ll have even MORE success with them.
Cat5 says
Goldie @ 54 stated: “It was a first date and I canceled it after receiving his text, which said “I can’t wait to meet you in person, and then we’ll make sweet love“. I texted back saying date is canceled, he replies, “I don’t understand. Why?” Did I really have to spell it out? How would it have made things better for him or me if I told him he was a creep?”
In February, I finally felt ready to start dating again after I broke up with my boyfriend of 3 years.
It was only 4 years ago when I was on Match.com, and that was where I met him. The thing is, I’ve had more than a few guys send me e-mails/texts similar to what Goldie mentioned above after we had set-up the 1st date, but before we actually went out. Why? Has something changed? I never received anything like that when I was on Match.com before. Of course, I cancelled the dates and stopped communication with these individuals. When did this type of communication become appropriate? Isn’t that more suited to AdultFriendFinder than Match.com? Or are have they all become the same now?
I also met a guy I went out with a couple times, who told me he couldn’t see me anymore because he’d also been dating another woman (who was younger than me — I’m 50 and she’s 35 — he’s 53), which I expected, but he decided to be exclusive with her, and he cited her taking the initiative in contacting him as part of the reason why he decided to be exclusive with her — she seemed more interested.
It’s been a very disappointing experience overall so far.
Cat5 says
Oh, and I forgot the guy that I had scheduled a date with, and he called me at 9:00 p.m. a few nights before to finalize the details. Then he e-mailed me at 12:30 a.m. and at 8:00 a.m. In the 8:00 a.m. e-mail, he cancelled our date. When I suggested rescheduling he declined because I had not responded to his 9:00 p.m. telephone call quickly enough leading him to believe I was not interested and too busy to be dating.
Karmic Equation says
@John, Frimmel, and Nathan
All things being equal, the girl who shows initiative and investment in me, will be the one I most likely choose to pursue something with.
And if you’re ok with not seeing woman #1 ever again, that works out for the both of you 🙂 But if woman #1 were a woman like me, who make great girl friends, but who wants a confident man, you’ve just weeded yourself out of the running with woman #1.
Yes, you three are atypical in requiring a woman to court YOU to indicate HER interest. Maybe that’s a consequence of online dating? I can tell you that IRL, the kind of men I like would think I’m desperate if I pursued them. They want a woman to be the prize they earn, because they already know THEY THEMSELVES are a prize, so if they deign to give me their time and attention, then I would, of course,<Karmic rolls her eyes> be flattered and receptive (in their minds, part of their cockiness and their charm).
However, if you’ve met and have had successful LONG-TERM relationships with woman doing what you’re doing (waiting for the WOMAN to express HER interest), then there’s no need to change your tactics. However, I’d be willing to bet none of the relationships where SHE initiated with you lasted more than 6 months. So if something always ends up being amiss in the relationship once it gets going, and you can’t really put a finger on it, it just could be that her pursuit of you, while flattering at the beginning, may conflict with your “inner man” biological programming, where it feels weird for him to be the hunted instead of the hunter.
Evan’s right in that the typical woman wants “…a confident, masculine man who believe in themselves so much that it doesn’t even occur to them that the answer would be no.” That confident man is HOT. A guy who wants ME to pursue HIM? Not so much. In fact in addition to my thinking the guy is uninterested, I would tend to think he’s insecure and lazy. I’m not thinking that he has options. I’m thinking he doesn’t know how to show his interest to a woman…or he has other issues, so it’s just as well he didn’t pursue me.
But you might be lucky in finding women like GreatGal, Vanessa, and Suzanne, who don’t mind pursuing. There is a lid for every pot.
John #73
Girls that never initiated with me many times agreed to go on 3 or 4 dates with me. And then many times they would invariably flake or disappear or just stop returning phone calls. And it wasn’t because I pushed for sex or was cheap or a douche.
John, sorry to have to say this, but it could be that they traded up. While you WERE a nice guy, etc., someone “better” (whatever that means to THOSE GIRLS) came along and pushed you off the list. It doesn’t mean that they had a low interest level in you, but rather maybe someone MORE interesting came along. Or maybe, similar to the “Mommy’s don’t wear thongs” response you got that turned you off, you inadvertently did or said something that turned THEM off. I’m guessing that if a man has plentiful options in NYC, then so do the women, especially the good looking ones. Competition goes both ways…and good looking women have the advantage over good looking men.
@GreatGal & Vanessa & Suzanne
Most attractive women can have sex any time she wants. And most men will not turn down sex with an attractive woman (and sometimes with a not-so-attractive woman)…So while you may not be offering sex on date 1 with the guy you asked out, that guy pretty much assumes you will by date 3 because YOU are pursuing HIM, so it’s not a matter of IF he will have sex with you, but WHEN. So the ONLY thing he knows he has to do is go on dates with you until you put out, which he knows is usually date 3. Not a huge investment for sure sex with a good-looking woman. And once he has sex with you, he’s in the driver’s seat regarding having a “relationship” with you. You’re not in an exclusive relationship until HE offers it to you; you don’t get to marry him unless HE proposes (unless you’re willing to do that, too.)
IMO, your pursuing doesn’t mean you’re confident. It just means you know you have a you-know-what and that the man you’re pursuing finds you attractive. That’s it. Of COURSE, a man whom you’ve pursued and are having sex with will tell you he loves your “confidence,” because that’s what he knows you want to hear. You can put this to the test…the next time you pursue a man, DON’T have sex with him until the 8th date. Bet you that man won’t be around for the 8th date. Do a second test. Go out with a man who pursues YOU and don’t have sex with him until the 8th date. Bet you he’ll still be around if he’s doing the pursuing.
In courting, a woman’s confidence doesn’t get expressed the same way as a man’s confidence. A confident man “pursues because it doesn’t occur to him you would say no” (EMK); so the corressponding confident woman DOESN’T pursue because it doesn’t occur to her that a man who’s attracted to her WON’T pursue her. If a man doesn’t pursue me, I forget about him. His loss. I never think of it as MY loss.
@Tom10
I don’t think I’ve ever used the word “chemistry” to describe what I’m looking for in a man. So I’ve never looked for it on dates and I’ve never DQ’d a guy for it’s lack. I don’t think about that at all.
Instead, I use my filters. My filters are pretty simple, if a guy is confident enough to approach (I date IRL not online), he’s passed my first filter.
Then as I get to know him better, I’m assessing his genuineness. Is who he’s showing to me the “real him” or the him he thinks I want to see. Do I like what I see? If I feel he’s not genuine. He filters himself out of the running. If he passes that filter and my liking filter, then I ask myself, would I want to have sex with him. If my mind is neutral about it, I go on another date with (assuming he asks) and as I continue to assess his character, I try to imagine seeing him naked OR letting him see me naked (not on that date, but in the future, I mean) — and if I’m either NOT excited about seeing him naked NOR yearning for him to kiss me…then no more dates. He’s effectively friend-zoned.
Once he’s passed my genuineness, liking, and bangable filters, then it’s just a matter of how well and consistently he pursues me that determines when we’ll have sex. From then on, a relationship usually evolves.
@Cat5 #75
Thank your lucky stars he cancelled. He did you a favor. You don’t want to be dating guys like that anyway.
Selena says
What I’m curious about regarding the woman being proactive, co-courting stance is: do you men who do it apply it to the women YOU are very much into? Or does it go out the window if she is someone you are super attracted to?
I ask because the men who became my partners, who loved me, who lived with me, and in one case had a child with me, were all men who wanted to talk to me everyday. Who wanted to see me as often as possible. Who pursued me because they wanted to. I didn’t have to be “proactive”, they would have beaten me to it had it even occurred to me to try. They knew I was interested because I showed I was every time we talked and every time we saw each other. I didn’t follow someone’s made up “rules” – I just enjoyed their company and they enjoyed mine.
So I wonder, you guys who are willing to bail after a second, or third date because the woman hasn’t initiated anything…you say it’s because you detect a lack of interest, or potential lack of interest on her part. Perhaps it’s really a lack of interest on your part instead? Because blowing off a woman just because she didn’t call you first, or suggest a date isn’t an effective strategy to get a woman you are really into. Effective strategy to get rid of one you feel ‘meh’ about though.
dean says
Cat5 #75
When I suggested rescheduling he declined because I had not responded to his 9:00 p.m. telephone call quickly enough leading him to believe I was not interested and too busy to be dating
The part you are missing isn’t just that you didn’t call back immediately. Its that he had other options and another woman swooped in and stole your date. Things happen at light speed in the dating world. If this guy didn’t have any other girl lined up, it wouldn’t have mattered as much. But he did obviously. Keep in mind this cuts both ways. if I try to date a female and it takes me a little longer due to business travel or working late then I miss out also.
Both sexes need to realize competition is fierce and if you just sit back or are not proactive enough, you will get trumped by someone who wants it more. I have been online dating for 3 years and I see the changes in aggressiveness on both sides. I cant imagine how it compares to those who online dated 6, 7 years ago. Its a different animal altogether.
AllenB says
@Evan
What you are saying applies to SOME women, namely the ones who are interested and don’t initiate. No doubt there are some women who are interested and DO initiate. Maybe they are fewer than the other kind or maybe not.
The bottom line question: if NYC John is getting as many second and beyond dates as he wants with the kinds of women he wants, why does it matter?
Fi says
All my past relationships were initiated by me. And when I look back now I can finally see what had gone wrong. I’m not saying these relationships all are dead now because I initiated them, but rather I mean that while I was being so busy making all the plans and let the guys sit back on the couch, THEY GOT BORED EASILY AND QUICKLY. (And then the relationship drained)
The lesson I learned from them is: Let the man to be man if you want him to be a man.
To be honest, sit back and wait is never my thing. But if you ask me next time if I happen to meet a guy I’m interested will I initiate the contact, my answer will be NO. I do like to go after for what I like and who I like, but by doing so in the dating scene I’ll be doing the guys’ job again. I bet the guy will feel flattered for sure, but then where’s the chance for him to be the man? Plus if a guy needs me to tell him what to do, when to meet, where to eat, duh, I feel like I’m his mom but not his date.
Of course there’re always exceptions, but it’s ok, I’m just one women and he is just one man. Really not too much to miss if we are not meant for each other.
Morris says
I think it’s in the man’s best interest to pursue the woman. To me it comes naturally so it’s really not a problem. But I also think it’s perfectly fine for women to text/call after a date to show interest. A few times when I’ve been ‘on the market’ I’ve been in situations where I’m dating a few women.(Not sleeping with just dating. Anyone who’s done online dating with some success can relate.) And I can remember a couple of times where a girl showed some initiative and I ended up dating exclusively with her. When you’re in a situation where you have to weed out potential dates I can see where ‘waiting’ can totally backfire. It really depends on the situation.
Morris says
@Selena #78 – I can’t speak to other people but here is my experience. If I’m going on dates and one women happens to be head and shoulders above everyone else I’ll do whatever it takes and pursue her. She doesn’t need to call or anything.
However, if I happen to find myself in a situation where there are a couple really good women that happen to find me desirable.(Lucky me!) Well, I have to admit that if one shows more interest it would only work in her favor. I’m a busy person so I can’t spend all my time trying to get to really REALLY get to know multiple people. And to be honest it felt good that she was interested in me and let me know it. Of course I let her know as well. It wasn’t like I sat back and let the women come to me or anything.
SparklingEmerald says
Morris @Selena #78 — I can’t speak to other people but here is my experience. If I’m going on dates and one women happens to be head and shoulders above everyone else I’ll do whatever it takes and pursue her. She doesn’t need to call or anything.
OK, this is a very old thread, and I am probably responding to a ghost but . . .
Most women want to be THAT woman, the one that a man will do “whatever it takes and pursue her. She doesn’t need to call or anything.” We want to be considered “head and shoulders above everyone else”, not one of many who has to push the other women out of the way by taking on the role of the huntress. We do not want to be one of many women you were dating to pass the time, and the one who most aggressively pursued you, which you found flattering. That’s almost a sure fire guarantee of a short term fling at the best and ONS at the worst. Or an FWB situation, until you find that girl that you would do “whatever it takes” to win her.
My husband pursued me with a vengeance (I was extremely interested to begin with, so I didn’t find it “creepy” or “clingy” or any of that stuff). I could NOT have initiated anything in the beginning even if I tried. On our first couple of dates, the plans were in place for the next date that evening and theree would be an e-mail waiting for me when I got home, if we met somewhere after I got off work. If he dropped me off at my house, we still had our plans in place for the our next date, and then he sent me an e-mail when he got home to say how much fun he had with me, and is looking forward to our next date. Even when the relationship was established and I had no problem “initiating”, I would go to send him an e-mail, and lo and behold, he beat me to the punch ! And as for me paying, well forget about it. I made many offers, and he would not hear of it. He even told me it was “cute” that I was offering to leave the tip, fill up the tank, pay for the movies, etc., but said “I’m wooing my baby, let me” He added it was nice to know that down the road, we could split costs and take better road trips, have better travels, etc., but for now, he wanted to treat me to everything. Initially, the only way he would let me contribute was with free movie tickets I would get from work, comp tickets I am regularly offered to live theater, VISA gift cards from work, or cooking. So as much as I tried to start splitting costs early on, and even after the relationship was WELL ESTABLISHED, he really resisted my offers, because he ENJOYED “wooing me”. (He is kind of like that with EVERYONE though, he and his son in law fight over the check on a regular basis, and he always wants to step up and treat when we are out with friends, and the check grabbing fun begins)
I could not have pursued my hubby in the beginning, even if I wanted to.
His active pursuit of me did not make me view him as “Beta” “desparate” or any of that other crap. And he never DOUBTED my keen interest in him, because I unequivocally responded with enthusiasm to his every advance.
Tom10 says
John
“So during that time I am out the cost of 3 or 4 dates, plus my lost time plus bruised ego”
I didn’t want to get involved in this discussion but I think Selena has it. I’ll be a guy to step in and support Evan, although I date irl not online, so as Karmic said it might be different.
I think one thing you’re forgetting John (and the other guys) is that you are dating with your interests at heart whereas Evan is speaking with the interests of women at heart.Of course you are going to date the women who reciprocate quickly – that way you can’t lose. You know she likes you so you know it’s just a matter of time before you get sex and whatever. However, the woman doesn’t know how ambivalent or keen you really are. Online dating sounds pretty brutal for guys so of course you’ll take the easy route if there is one. A woman asking me out? Sure I’ll take it.
However, women can lose — if she asks out a guy who has just been knocked back a few times and hasn’t had sex in months she has no way of knowing if he’s just filling time, and enjoying the sex until he meets someone he’s so crazy about he just has to have her.
Also, women need to give guys an easy ‘out’ at the start if that’s what he wants. If I’m not interested in a woman after the first few dates the easiest thing to do is just not ask her out again. It’s just painful to witness when women don’t pick up on this cue and keep contacting me and asking me out — I’m mortified for them. Then I either have to leave them hanging, or come out and say: “I don’t like you enough so let’s leave it”.
Let’s just say by some miracle I met Jennifer Aniston (or any other fantastic gal) and I got flirting with her, and got her number. Well you can bet your bottom dollar I will ask her out, and if she says yes I will be the happiest guy there is. Then I’ll ask her out again, and again. Sure she may be playing me for an ego trip but I’m willing to take that gamble on the off chance I win. That’s what I want to feel when I’m looking for an ltr — that I won the best prize there is.
That’s what the women here want to be — the long-term prize, not just someone for now. This must be an on-line only development I suppose.
John says
Ok Evan, point well taken. While I am still somewhat skeptical, I will keep an open mind to it. You talk to a ton more women than I do , so it would be foolish for me to totally disregard what you say on this topic. Of course I know what works for me and so that will be my competing mindset. But you are a good debater that’s for sure.
Karmic Equation @77
John, sorry to have to say this, but it could be that they traded up.
You didn’t need to state that. I am well aware of that fact. That’s the reason why I said “they were waiting for a bigger and better deal to come along”. You usually only trade up when a bigger and better deal comes along.
Selena @78
What I’m curious about regarding the woman being proactive, co-courting stance is: do you men who do it apply it to the women YOU are very much into? Or does it go out the window if she is someone you are super attracted to?
Fair question. But most of the women I date I am pretty attracted to anyway. So if someone totally blows me away with their looks its because they are probably out of my league. I will wait for her to be proactive. Don’t get me wrong, every time my phone rings or chimes I will hope its her, but I wont chase her like every other guy that dates her. I am self aware enough to know there are other guys in a higher league than me and they can battle it out for her. I would rather play nice and easy in the 7 sandbox than get all bloodied in the 9/10 sandbox.
Selena says
Well Morris, thanks for answering my question. And illustrating what I have long suspected anyway: men will pursue a woman they are very interested in- who cares if she isn’t “proactive”. 🙂 However when faced with a choice between two or more women he has only casual interest in…the proactive woman gets an edge. But it likely only temporarily. Cause the guy still hopes to find that woman who makes his heart beat faster. The one HE wants to win. The one HE chooses. 🙂
Which is why Evan’s advice works for most women – those who want to be the lover, the partner, or the wife – rather than the temporary casual girlfriend. The guy who REALLY wants her is not going to care if she’s “proactive”; he just wants her to be receptive to him.
Still-Looking says
If I wasn’t online, my dating would probably be much more in line with EMK’s advice and I would focus on one woman at a time and court her until she didn’t say yes to my requests for additional dates.
The problem expressed by several men is the same problem I have – we have options. We have numerous women we are conversing with and it is only natural that we are continually filtering women from the “yes, I’m going to pursue” category, to the “maybe” or “no” categories.
EMK said, “Women don’t initiate for many, many, many reasons — you just ASSUME it’s because they’re not interested.” This is true. What is also true is that when I’m talking with numerous women, lining up dates, going on dates, etc., I’m only going to pursue women that clearly indicate that they are interested in me. They can do this in a number of ways including initiating contact with me. If a woman doesn’t express interest in me, I have X number of other women to continue to talk with and date. I simply don’t have the time to try to determine why a particular woman is acting ambivalent.
Rose says
Evan says/
“FAR too many women have turned themselves into men — calling, texting, reaching out, making plans, only to discover that the men have felt a) emasculated, b) turned off that she’s doing his job, c) that she was weak and needy, and d) that she singlehandedly kept the relationship alive with an ambivalent man because she was calling him to set up concert plans. Yet the second she stopped calling, he dropped off the face of the planet.”
Absolutely, I don’t want to do the mans job and be a man, It feels better to me to be a woman and allow the man the be a man.
Julia says
@Still-looking
“What is also true is that when I’m talking with numerous women, lining up dates, going on dates, etc., I’m only going to pursue women that clearly indicate that they are interested in me. They can do this in a number of ways including initiating contact with me.”
Are you assuming the women you are taking out aren’t dating multiple men as well? I can assure you we are. If a guy does’t ask me out again I simply move one with the other several men I am dating/corresponding with. The women you date have the same situation as you but you still insist that women pursue men? Honey you aren’t going to get very far with a woman who has 4-5 guys asking her out, why would she even think to pursue you? Show me you’re the guy I want to be with by pursuing me like no man ever has. That makes you rise to the top.
Julia says
@John 85 & Karmic #77
re: trading up
This seems to be a common theme in the manosphere, if a woman doesn’t go out with you again its because she’s “traded up” While I don’t doubt that this happens on occasion. My experience is that we are slightly more complex and not always looking for the best thing possible. I will give you an example. I went out with a guy last fall before I met my BF. We moved quickly through 2/2/2 and I was genuinely excited to meet him. Our first date was great, easy conversation, good attraction and he was super pumped about me. Second date was equally great but then we kissed at the end of the date, omg it was so awful, like making out with an uncle. But because we got along, he was still cute and still pumped about me I went out with him a 3rd time in hopes the kiss was a fluke. It wasn’t. I almost cried after he left my apartment. I didn’t have anyone else I was dating, still messaging some guys but there was no direct competition. He just wasn’t for me and I couldn’t force it. Sometimes you are just not the right person. Stop taking its so personally and get out there are find the woman who eagerly says “YES!” whenever you ask her.
Rose says
GreatGal Because no grown up masculine man wants a woman to take the initiative and lead. Their ego may like it for a while but after a whileIt makes men like that feel like the girl. Or a boy and you like a mummy.
If you are happy doing what you do and it is bringing you the love, romance and relationship you want then keep doing what you do. It’s working. If it isn’t then do something different. Only you know if it has worked. And it has brought you what you want.
Still-Looking says
Julia @ 89
“Are you assuming the women you are taking out aren’t dating multiple men as well?”
— I not only assume the women are dating other men, I prefer it.
“The women you date have the same situation as you but you still insist that women pursue men?”
— I do not insist that women pursue men. Women just need to clearly express their interest: timely response to texts; making time to talk; enthusiasm when communicating; suggesting another date/time if she is unavailable for a date, etc.
“Honey you aren’t going to get very far with a woman who has 4-5 guys asking her out, why would she even think to pursue you? Show me you’re the guy I want to be with by pursuing me like no man ever has. That makes you rise to the top.”
— Julia, if you capture my attention and let me know you are interested, I will pursue you. The problem is if you don’t send the right signals, then I face a dilemma — as EMK said, “If a woman likes you, you can call her the next day and it will be the best thing you ever did. If she DOESN’T like you, your next day call will make you look like a needy stalker.”
Sparkling Emerald says
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, Evan and everyone for your feedback. (I am S.E. the original poster) BTW, Ask Men, (or ask boys) is but ONE other source of so called advice i have seen . I have read LOTS, but EMK’s blog has the highest percentage of advice that resonates with me.
There are so many posts that I would like to respond to individually, but that could take 2 days and considerable bandwidth. I did enjoy all the comments, the nay sayers as well as the yay sayers.
So here are my general thoughts. It may seem that I am in “competition” with more pro-active and/or aggressive women. I remember, in my younger, dumber dating days, being pro-active and/or aggressive, and no good ever came from it. It is true that in the 8 months since I started dating, that I am not in a LTR yet, but I am very hopeful that I will be, it’s just a matter of finding the right match. 8 months really isn’t that long, and until recently, I worked 2 jobs, and had very little time to devote to dating, so I feel like in “real time” it has been about 5 months of dating.
I have observed pro-active/aggressive women IRL, what I see isn’t pretty (and it’s painful to watch, b/c it reminds me of my younger days, before I knew better) So if I am warm and receptive and open to a man, and he decides to go with the pro-active gal who asks him out, plans the dates, etc. so be it. Perhaps in my other incarnation as a dater, it wasn’t my pursuit , that was my downfall, but the fact that whenever I pursued a man, I felt desperate, needy, undesired and unfeminine, and that had to have come across in my attitude. The men who I pursued also expected easy sex because I pursued. Their attitude was basically, if I wasn’t going to put out, why did I chase them to begin with.
However, I HATE the other extreme of “The Rules”. The Rules isn’t about being receptive, it’s about being deceptive. They advocate not seeing a man more than twice a week, until you are MARRIED ! They advocate “training” a man to ask you out by Wednesday for a Saturday night date. What the heck is wrong with accepting a Saturday night date on a Friday night ? (Especially if you met the man on Thursday)
I like Evan’s advice (and coincidently it is what I started doing after my first marriage ended, and it led to my second marriage -which also ended 🙁 ) Be RECEPTIVE, but don’t CHASE. Yes, my 2nd husband pursued me, (as did my first) however, I missed a few red flags, and should have taken a closer look at who was chasing me, (but he was so darn cute, and that darn oxytocin made me do it 🙂 )
Here is how I respond to a man I am interested in. If I am available when he calls, I ANSWER IT ! (If not, I return the call promptly) If his name appears on my caller ID, I ENTHUSIASTICALLY say “Hi So and So”. I let my voice bubble with enthusiasm when I talk to him. I laugh at his jokes, if he told me last time we talked/or saw each other about his plans for the week, I’ll ask “How was your golf game, how was your job interview, how is the re-modeling project on your house going ?” When he asks me out, I say something like “That sound FUN !” or “I’ve always wanted to try that restaurant” or “What a GREAT idea !”.
On a date. I dress to kill. I wear the very best outfit that is appropriate for the activity. The whole nine yards, hair, make-up (but not heavy and fake looking) accessories. Killer high heels (if it’s not a hike or bike ride 🙂 ) Once again, laugh at his quips and jokes, tell him what fun this activity is, tell him what a great idea it was to do whatever. Eye contact, smile, be attentive. I leave my dietary concerns at home. Yes, I am health conscience, and live on smoothies, salads and soup at home, and work hard to maintain my weight, but if he steps up and plans the date, and it’s going to Fat Alberts rib shack, I’m not going to be a wet blanket and say, “But that sounds fattening, and I like to eat healthy, blah, blah, blah”. I’ll go online before hand to see if they have a menu online, and see what the healthiest, slimmest thing is on the menu, so I know ahead of time what to order. And if everything is high calorie, well, I’ll just eat very light that day, and work out an extra 15 minutes the next day. What’s the point of maintaining my figure, if I never let a date take me anywhere but Sweet Tomatoes ?
When he leans in for that kiss, if I’m still interested, my well glossed lips are ready for it ! If he holds my hand, I hold his hand. (No limp fish hand from me) If he puts his arm around me, I lean in, if we are in a coffee shop on the couch, and he cuddles me, I cuddle back. (I love PDA’s as long as they don’t turn into the foreplay variety) At the end of the date, I thank him, and tell him what fun I had. If he says he would like to see me again, I say YES. Even if it’s the next day. (none of this crap of pretending to be too busy, and artificially spacing our dates a week apart) If I am TRULY unavailable, I say, I would LOVE do whatever, but tomorrow’s not good for me, but I am open during the week, and next weekend. (or whenever)
So if my smiling, sweet smelling, eye-contact, cute as a button outfitted, kissy, cuddly, laughing, receptive self, doesn’t convince him that I’m interested, then he’s not the guy for me. Or if my enthusiasm and receptivity is interpreted as being needy, then he’s not the guy for me. If he KNOWS I’m interested, but he wants to “frustrate” me to”raise my interest level” even higher, he’s not the guy for me, if he just wants a no effort booty call, then he’s not the guy for me.
I used to think I was in competition with the aggressive, pro-active, fling their naked bodies at a guy, gals (OK, a tad exaggeration on the naked flinging part) but now I see it differently. THEY are in competition with ME, a woman who has no qualms about waiting for a man to CHOOSE me. And so what if he is dating 5 other girls who pursued him ? I would rather be that one in a million (OK 1 in 5) gal that HE CHOSE, over all the rest, than to be the one he let into his life (and bed) because I did the chasing.
Clare says
Sparkling Emerald 93
May I just say, I think you are AWESOME. I think this kind of wise, common sense, high self-esteem approach to dating is just wonderful.
Clare says
@ John # 10
As a gorgeous, intelligent, caring and feminine woman, I can tell you that I am not concerned with “losing out”. I do not question my worth to the extent that I am worried what I can possibly do to “land” this guy. I assume if he likes me he will ask me out and pursue me. I can assure you I have no interest in a relationship with a man who lacks the confidence and warmth to do this.
Selena says
Sparkling Emerald….
Brava! Great post. 🙂
Selena says
@ Karmic re: #77
I feel that some people are more attuned to the masculine/feminine energy dynamic than others. For those of us who tend not to pay much attention to it, it can be much more subltle. I do think that when something feels off, and you can’t quite put your finger on why…it may be because the enegy balance has shifted in a way that makes one or both people psychologically uncomfortable. Worth exploring if it happens often.
Dean says
Back to the original topic of dating advice blogs: There are some interesting ones. While Evan has women’s best interests at heart, there are others that have men’s interests at heart. Evan writes the playbook for the ladies and other authors write the playbook for men. Some you win and some you lose. But if guys didn’t brush up on their playbooks, men would lose all the time. I did until I learned from the male playbook and said “Yes this is exactly what keeps happening to me”. So I changed my style and attitude and used some, not all, of their strategies. And I got much better results.
I have the same looks, same personality, same income and yet my outcomes were much better. The only difference was using some PUA advice. So there is a market for it because anyone can improve their game at any age. I never heard of Doc Love, but the go to site I use most frequently has changed my game for the better. Of course women will read it and say “This is BS”. But I have seen firsthand that it is game changer that works for guys much to the dismay of women.
One of the things centered around paying for dates and how ineffective it is for men. This is in stark contrast to Evans point of view who feels that paying for dates gives a guy the best chance of landing the girl. Probably because he had success with it and heard of women saying that’s how they preferred it . Fair enough.
But the author went on to list his theory why he had as much success as Evan by doing the exact opposite. When I read it, I nodded my head in agreement. Then when I did an analysis when looking back, this PUA author was 100% correct in how it applied to my experience. Here was the drill he outlined:. I added up all the money I spent on dates that I did not get sex or a relationship from. It was a lot. Then I added up all the money I spent on dates that got me a relationship or sex. It wasn’t a lot of money.
The differential was staggering. Then to be really crass, you use those figures to come up with a figure of sex or relationship per dollar spent. All of the women hooted and howled that it was BS in the comments section. But the numbers didn’t lie. What happened to the author was what was happening to me. I forwarded it to one of my friends who got the same results I did. Very little return on investment when he shelled out, and a high rate of return when he didn’t. The moral is that a girl will screw your brains out or be your girlfriend if she is into you regardless how much you spend . The spending meant zilch as to how the girl perceived you. So I significantly curtailed the spending. And I still got sex and relationships. The only difference was that I spent a quarter of the amount. And all of the girls were on par with each other. Its not like the ones I spent less on were ugly or desperate.
Its those kind of results that make PUA sites proliferate. Of course there are other PUA sites that are garbage, but this one guy nailed it exactly and so I go to him the same way women flock to Evan. That PUA author upped my game the same way Evan ups women’s game. Many guys on Evans site cry foul (see all the comments here) with the tactics he espouses the same way women cry foul in the comments section on that one particular PUA site.
Evan’s way works. Some PUA sites work. Its up to each individual to try both ways and see which one better suits him. For me, I will always go with the way I outlined. Because the numbers don’t lie and it isn’t anecdotal based. In dating, like anything, there are many ways to skin a cat. Just like there are multiple pathways to get in physical shape, there are multiple pathways to find love/sex. That’s my theory on why there are multiple dating sites. Somehow this topic got off topic. Thanks Evan for bringing up the topic of dating advice since you know much of it flies in contrast to you. You are fair and balanced for even offering to open that can of worms.
LC says
Every single time I’ve reciprocated a guy’s interest in me by calling him first, asking him out to a hockey game, asking him to go anywhere with me after he’s initiated the first couple of dates has ended up in me getting dumped. These guys can say how they want a girl who’s interested, proactive, and reciprocal all they want, but their actions show me that they are easily bored by women who are actually interested. Don’t fall for it ladies–they’re just playing the game.
GreatGal says
Rose, Evan,
So let me get this right. If I have been dating a guy I liked for (let’s say) a month, about 8 dates), I still am not to ask him out to a movie that I’d like to see because that would mean I was ‘leading’ and (according to Rose) I want a FWB relationship? Because then I would be emitting masculine energy? So Evan, at what point could a girl suggest an activity to her date/her guy? When is it appropriate? I’m all ears.
Wow! If what you both say are true, then I sure have been pursuing hard from my guys’ point of view.
How about this scenerio. A guy I have been seeing for a few months invites me to his birthday party at local bar. We talk casually, I mention that I am excited to see a particular movie, he says he likes to see it, we should do it together. I mention I will be going on a harbour cruise, he asks me when and says he’s coming as well. I have not invited him, I was just talking about myself. Does that sound like an invite to guys’ ears?
BTW, when I followed up a couple of days later to see if we can match schedules for the movie, he gave me the ‘I’ll see how my schedule is’ then never heard back from him. From my point of view, very mixed messages since I wasn’t inviting him in the first place, he invited himself. But I get that he just wasn’t that interested, which is OK because I see it now and am OK with knowing that.
Sometimes men are such a mystery!
Evan Marc Katz says
@GreatGal: “If I have been dating a guy I liked for (let’s say) a month, about 8 dates), I still am not to ask him out to a movie that I’d like to see because that would mean I was ‘leading’ and (according to Rose) I want a FWB relationship? Because then I would be emitting masculine energy? So Evan, at what point could a girl suggest an activity to her date/her guy? When is it appropriate?”
Listen, you can ask a guy out to a movie if you want. But it will usually not help you get a commitment. That’s generally his decision. So my question to you is why you’ve gone out with a guy 8 times in a month and he still hasn’t committed to being your boyfriend. Because once he’s your boyfriend, you can throw some of this receptive feminine stuff out the window. The point of not doing anything is to see if he’s motivated to commit to you. If he’s interested in committing, he’ll do so by his own accord because he’s attracted to you, has fun with you, enjoys your company and thinks that you’re worth exclusivity. He makes this decision on how he feels with you, not based on whether you procured him concert tickets.
Seems to me that you’re way too content “seeing” guys for months at a time without commitment – all the while, taking on the masculine role of initiating plans. Perhaps you’d be better letting a guy do all the initiating during early phases of courtship, and, if he hasn’t stepped up to commit in 6-8 weeks, breaking off with him because you want a boyfriend, not a once a week guy. If a guy DOES become your boyfriend, he earns the right receive your efforts as well. You’ve just been giving too much, with too little reward.
Men win women over by giving. Men are attracted to women who receive. Try it out. I think you’ll like it.
Amelia2.0 says
Although I agree that the man ought to take the lead while dating a lady, I can understand where he would not prefer to feel like he is blindly improvising a complex mating dance where one false move gets him devoured. I know how unsettling it can be to go on a fantastic date with someone only to hear dead silence afterward. It can take the wind right out of your sails. That is often what dating is like for women. For that reason, I see the benefit in wanting a lady to give even something as simple as an unprompted “Had a wonderful time. Hope to see you again soon,” that acknowledges his efforts yet gracefully puts the ball back in his court.
That being said, my boyfriend never made me wonder by waiting for me to call or text him while we were dating. He acted like it was a forgone conclusion that I would accept his drinks, his calls, his dates, his picking up the bill, his driving us around ALL of the damn time. I almost went fire-breathing batty as I have an egalitarian outlook and was definitely willing and prepared to meet him halfway, but he would have NONE of it. Although I felt pretty humbled when I realized it, I was in truth totally flattered and impressed by his committment to a courtship that was so stinkingly textbook (and exactly the strategy EMK advocates, hey go figure). I still mentally shake my fist at him for it.
Granted, the courtship is only half the battle. In addition to being fun, he always brought his warm self to the table, was emotionally present, and was respectful to me at all times. I did the same. Obviously courtship etiquette means bupkis if you’re not enjoying one another’s presence.
GreatGal says
Sorry for the double post Evan, I’d just like to address Karmic77.
My point in asking my dates out (after getting to know them for awhile, say a month or two), is not to show ‘confidence’ per se. It’s to show I am interested in him. I don’t sleep with them on Date 3 or even Date 6. How much do you know a person, really, at Date 3?? Just enough to know if you have attraction. I don’t sleep with people based solely on attraction – not a winning strategy for me. I like to take my time and really know a person first.
If I like them, I’d like to show my interest by asking to see them sometimes (after a month or two). Not everytime, but from time to time or every second date. If I find they are not reciprocating or declining without counter-offers I know they are no longer interested (that may be because of a number of factors).
Thank you to the guys here for talking candidly about how online dating is for you. Most people multiple date and even guys and girls who are looking for loving long term relationships will want to gauge the interest level of their dates. No difference between the genders there. What Evan posits is that if guys just assume all girls like them and ask anyway, then they will know if the girls are interested in them. However, not all guys think that way. Some guys don’t automatically assume. If one was to date me for example, not kissing at first date, maybe not even fooling around on second date, the guy might think I am not interested in him at all but in fact, I am – but just don’t want to fool around with a near-complete stranger. Call me old-fashioned.
Morris says
I’m starting to think many of you are over analyzing this. There are many different men and women. Some will respond well to doing all the pursuing and others won’t. Read the situation. Trust your instinct. But don’t play games of I’ll let him pursue me no matter what. Don’t expect things to just fall into your lap… or do but don’t complain about what ends up in your lap. 🙂
Karmic Equation says
@GreatGal 107
If you’ve known the guy for a month or two and he’s not contacting YOU regularly to see you, your showing interest isn’t necessarily going to make him MORE interested in you. A man who’s like you and is sincerely interested in you will contact you regularly to schedule the next date. There’s no reason when he DOES call YOU that you can’t then say, “Hey, So glad you called, I was thinking about you. How about if we go to this movie I’ve been dying to see?” You can show interest once he contacts you.
But I personally think (because I’ve caught myself feeling this way) — that when I want to contact a man, it’s because I “need” him to know I’m interested or somehow I’m going to die if I don’t talk to him just to see if he’s thinking about ME. But you know what? When you initiate contact under those circumstances, you NEVER will know if he’s thinking about you. Contacting him when you’re feeling that way comes from neediness and our strange women’s way of showing a guy we are “nice”…and you rationalize it by saying “I want to show him I’m interested” or “I don’t want to play games” — but you’re not really coming across the way you think you are.
What I’ve learned to do is that UNTIL a man contacts me regularly (2-3 times per week), I DO NOT initiate contact. I’ve literally made myself put my phone down and go take a nap (like at 6pm) so that I would NOT text or call the guy I’m crazy about. And each time, they’ve contacted me that same evening. We didn’t go out that night, but we had a nice conversation. That was enough stave off the craving.
It was EXTREMELY difficult to exert that kind of self-control, but it pays off because instead of WONDERING if the guy is thinking about you, you KNOW he was because when a guy likes you and thinks about you, he has just as difficult a time not contacting you as you him. Simple.
@Selena 86
Great post! Agreed 100%.
@Dean 98
Mostly guy-game is about being confident. If PUA techniques helps your confidence, there’s nothing wrong with that. However, it’s likely your CONFIDENCE that’s improved your outcomes rather than not paying as much for your dates.
I think the fallacy is your former thinking that impressing a woman at a fancy restaurant or fancy dates is what’s going to get you laid. No, women are impressed by confidence, authenticity, and honesty. Might you have become more of the three after learning the male playbook?
And perhaps you are now more astute at finding women who like the new authentic, confident you and hence more success followed. You’re right that a woman who’s into you will screw your brains out whether or not you spend money on her. Unless you were dating the wrong kind of women, the ticket to most women’s bedrooms is not how much MONEY you invest in them, but how much of YOURSELF you invest in them.
Selena says
Hi GreatGal.
When I read your posts I thought, “I wouldn’t have a problem suggesting a movie, or a restaurant after month. Certainly not after 2 mos. because by then typically we’d already be a couple.” But in my relationships that went beyond casual we were seeing each other at least 3 times a week after a month. I/we had a comfort level established. Maybe you move slower in relationships?
Give serious consideration to what Evan wrote. Do you want more than a once-a-week guy?
I’ve also been where Karmic describes in #105. If I was high on infatuation with someone new it could be really hard not to pick up the phone if I hadn’t heard from him that day. I’d rationalize it: “Hey, it’s _______(pick a year) it’s okay for women to call men!” And my internal voice would say, “Don’t do it! He might start thinking you are clingy, or worse, pushy- that’s not you!” To make myself NOT call, I’d often call a girlfriend instead. Sometimes the guy did call, sometimes he didn’t. Eventually I learned a guy who doesn’t call regularly is a guy who isn’t that interested. Would have taken longer to figure that out if I didn’t listen to my inner voice and insisted on doing the proactive/ co-courting approach instead.
K says
I feel more confused from reading these comments. I feel like a lot of women are agreeing with Evan’s advice (as I do and generally I have followed his advice even before I found this site). But it seems like a lot of the men are disagreeing.
Evan Marc Katz says
K – The men who are disagreeing are nice guys who (if I’m going to go out on a limb) lack a little bit of confidence with women. Confident guys assume that you’re going to like them. They have no doubt that they’re going to get a second date, a good night kiss, and more. Those men are often the men that women desire the most. And I can say, definitively, that a confident man chooses his partner; he doesn’t sit back and wait to be chosen.
It’s not that my dissenters are “wrong”. They’re doing what they feel works best for them. Somewhat more objectively, I would tell those men to always call, always pay, and always assume the answer is YES. They will get much better results with women that way, as opposed to assuming that if a woman doesn’t call, she’s not into him.
K says
Thanks Evan that makes sense. In reality all of my real relationships resulted from men who pursued me, called me every night and never wondered if I wanted them to (or at least didn’t show that concern). I know women who like to be more in charge in dating and in a relationship and I think pursuing works for them because they get the type of man they want. As I like men who lead more it makes sense to be more receptive and work on my feminine behavior. I have a tough job/exterior, but I’m very feminine based on how I was raised so I may need to work on showing that more initially.
Morris says
@k #107 – my takeaway would be that times are changing. If all men/women aren’t the same you can’t have one approach to dating. Should the man do most of the pursuing? I think so. But a little help depending on the situation could prove to be a boon as well.
@EMK #108 – I’m not sure I agree. It seems you are implying you want beta men to be alpha men. It might work to get a date but eventually the beta comes back. The advice also tells women to wait for an alpha. Again that doesn’t seem like good advice. There are only so many alpha’s to go around so the math simply wouldn’t add up.
Should beta men go out of their comfort zone a bit. Yeah, I think that would help. But women should also go out of their comfort zone as well. Maybe if the women is dating a beta she should be more willing to pursue. And if she is dating an alpha she can sit back a bit more. Wouldn’t that be more realistic instead of trying to have one dating strategy for both?
Evan Marc Katz says
@Morris “Maybe if the woman is dating a beta she should be more willing to pursue. And if she is dating an alpha she can sit back a bit more. Wouldn’t that be more realistic instead of trying to have one dating strategy for both?”
The nature of giving advice is that there are always going to be exceptions. The people to whom those exceptions apply will be very vocal in insisting that my advice doesn’t work or doesn’t apply to them. Fair enough. I simply don’t have time to tell every single individual what to do in every single individual situation. So I generalize.
In general, beta men would do BETTER if they were to adopt the behaviors of ALPHA men. They can say that they’re completely fixed and static, but they’re not. Dean’s posts about pick-up artist advice is proof positive that guys can learn how to improve their games and appeal to more women. My advice is generally about teaching alpha women to become more feminine, open, fun, playful, supportive and trusting. These are qualities that men value more than advanced degrees, real estate empires, and impressive resumes.
Are there women who WANT beta men? Sure. Are there men who WANT alpha women? Sure. But there’s less of both. So I give advice on how everyone can come towards the center – beta men can learn from alpha men, and alpha women can learn from beta women. Make a little more sense now?
Dean says
Karmic Equation @105
However, it’s likely your CONFIDENCE that’s improved your outcomes rather than not paying as much for your dates.
I doubt it. Out of pure necessity, during winter months I am limited to what I can do, so drinks and dinners are most common. And what happened during those drinks/dinners? I got the same amount of action as when it was warmer weather and I could do things for a quarter of the price. No more and no less.
So once again wineing dining didn’t get me relationships or sex any more or less as going to a duck pond with a walk around an arboretum or mini golf or rollerblade or a walk in Manhattan on The High Line. All those things cost virtually nothing, yet I can convert those dates into good outcomes. It isn’t because of any more or less confidence. Its about return on investment. If the girls didn’t sleep with me or want to date me after those dates I lost nothing. But in the winter it cost me a lot if I got nothing out of it. If the girls did hook up with me with the restaurant/dinner dates then the cost per lay was much higher.
Maybe I said it previously in a confusing way. It isn’t so much as if I will get action. Its a matter of how much will that action will cost me. And the cheap dates if done right, will cost a hell of a lot less for the same action. Much better return on investment. Now it may sound unromantic when you think about cost per lay, but from a guys perspective, this is important data. Repulsive to ladies I know. But a Godsend to the guys.
And your defense might be “Well I wouldn’t spend time with a guy if he only did cheap dates”. And that would be fine with me. Why? Because it cost me nothing to learn that about you. If a girl is into me, as long as I do SOMETHING (whether dinner/drinks or a walk on The High Line) then I will get what I am looking for.
I agree it doesn’t sound romantic. But remember Evans mantra “Guys look for sex and find love”. So what better way to find love than to increase your sex? The problem is cost. With the PUA way I discovered, I can go out with 5 girls for the price of 1 traditional date. Since I am not wealthy, I have to maximize my resources. So now do you see FROM A GUYS POINT OF VIEW why this works? From a woman’s point of view I can see how cost per lay would be offensive. But the ladies just think I am being creative since none of them ever did The High Line, or a duck pond feeding with awesome botanical gardens and rollerblading. They think I am creative. But I am really being economical. This is what the PUA made me realize. Forget the fancy dinners and drinks. You can get a girlfriend or get sex from spending very little. And that goes way against the grain of traditional dating advice gurus. Capice?
Morris says
@EMK #112 – “My advice is generally about teaching alpha women to become more feminine, open, fun, playful, supportive and trusting. These are qualities that men value more than advanced degrees, real estate empires, and impressive resumes.”
Thank you. I haven’t been participating on this forum for all that long but I should have picked up on that. Makes much more sense now.
K says
@Morris point well taken. I tend to prefer men more on the alpha spectrum so Evan’s general guidance probably suits me best. However, I think I get your point that I don’t need to rigidly apply any rules. When I like a guy and he’s is doing a lot of pursuing I think it’s fine to surprisingly initiate a little, text, etc. However it in my experience works best if my effort is less (more receptive) than his and he is leading.
@Dean I have always sort of been suspicious when a guy plans “creative” free outings and your comment makes me feel like I was right that he was just being cheap (at least after the initial meet up).
marymary says
Boyfriend is alpha in some situations. He’s a good public speaker and performer, sporty, with lots of friends of both sexes. He could also kill someone with his bare hands but thankfully that’s not been necessary.
However, he’s not alpha around women he’s interested in romantically. If I had met him online and had nothing else to go on, I might very well have seen the lack of drive as lack of interest. We were moving in the same circles so were constantly in each other’s faces without having to set up dates. Certainly, though, from when we did actually start dating he’s been open, faithful, honest and well intentioned. Those things don’t necessarily correlate with being good at dating but I guess you have to date to find out if that’s on the table. And that’s where the advice is helpful, especially online where you’re not meeting people via friends, church, work etc. You’re much more on your own and it’s not as organic. If there are techniques that work, it would be good to know them.
Evan at 104 “Men win women over by giving”. Yep, even though the boyfriend is somewhat of an exception to the “typical” man, he’s not THAT exceptional. He enjoys treating me, helping me with practical stuff, looking after me when I’m sick, gives emotional support, and generally likes feeling needed in a non-crazy way. If they aren’t doing that, they’re not that bothered. He did take the lead in that area, he was braver than I was.
Rose says
GreatGal 100
“Rose, Evan,
So let me get this right. If I have been dating a guy I liked for (let’s say) a month, about 8 dates), I still am not to ask him out to a movie that I’d like to see because that would mean I was ‘leading’ and (according to Rose) I want a FWB relationship? Because then I would be emitting masculine energy? ”
I didn’t mean to give that impression that I thought that is what you wanted. There are women out there who say they want this are cool about it and are happy with this. Most IMO are just pretending and are not cool with this and some the rare few do want this and are cool with it.
It doesn’t appear that is what you want GreatGal, what I believe is by doing what you do is that is what the MAN will believe you are ok with so that is what you will get and he is he isn’t taking the lead he will be more than happy with it. Leaving you wanting more, not a good place to be.
Only you deep down know what you really want.
Friendship?
FWB?
Boyfriend?
Live in lover?
Life partner?
Marriage?
What do you want?
Then it becomes if you want along term realtionship that leads to marriage or life partner.Do you want to be the one pursuing, leading, initiating and asking the man to marry you?
Or do you want to be pursued by a masculine energy man who wants to and is able to do and lead a realtionship who if things go well asks you to marry him or live with him?
It’s all about finding what you want and then getting the right match for you who wants the same. If you want the latter, being the pursuer or taking it in turns to pursue and lead will not get you what you want.
Karmic Equation says
@Dean 111
I think your cause and effect need to re-examined a bit.
Maybe instead of dating during the winter, you should only date during the summer, because, yes, indoor activities typically cost more than outdoor activities.
Or maybe women are more hot to trot in the summer than in the winter, particularly when they feel good that they’re looking good in their beachwear, as opposed to winter when they pack on a little extra.
If seasons factor into it, then I’m not really sure your money argument holds water. But perception is everything. So if you perceive that it that way, then nothing logical I may say against that will change your mind.
On the whole, I do understand where you’re coming from. But rather than offended I feel a little sad for you that you have taken something that could be special and turned it into an ROI analysis which, for the most part, leaves you less likely to be in an emotionally welcoming place to have a healthy relationship.
Since “good feelings” are subjective and tough to measure and “sex” is objective and easy to measure, placing a dollar value on how much money you spend to get laid demeans your dating to all about whether or not you get sex. I mean this kind of analysis almost tells you the best ROI would be to find a hooker. You’ll get laid without putting in any effort at all.
So while dating thus may be the best “value” for your wallet, it de-values what dating is all about.
I say this because I’m one of the few women who consistently dates men who makes less than she does. Through no fault of mine or my men, they lost their jobs while I was either married to them or dating them, which left me the one bringing home the bacon or treating them if I wanted to go out, which I do a lot. I can’t even begin to quantify the amount of money I’ve spent thus and I wouldn’t have to or want to, because ultimately, love is priceless. And I don’t blink an eye on the money I spent/spend when I go out, whether or not I get a “relationship” out of those dates. The man’s company and the opportunity to get to know him better is what I’m paying for. So if I choose wisely, that’s money well spent, no matter the outcome.
Dean says
Karmic 117
I mean this kind of analysis almost tells you the best ROI would be to find a hooker. You’ll get laid without putting in any effort at all.
So while dating thus may be the best “value” for your wallet, it de-values what dating is all about.
We will have to agree to disagree on this one. Dating a hooker has awful ROI. I guess you don’t understand cost benefit analysis. The goal is to pay as little as possible for sex. I don’t think hookers are free.
Devaluing dating? Which romcom did you get that from? For some people, dating is just a means to have a good time and have sex. Nothing more. Sorry to break it to you. Does dating have to lead to pure romance? Heck no. For many guys, dating is a way to get sex and have fun. And this is where Evan helps ladies in figuring out what qualities good men have to separate the relationship minded ones from the dating as a sport ones. And that’s cool. So because a relationship doesn’t fit your definition of how it should look, it gets slapped as “unhealthy”? Please. If both people are happy having an inexpensive night out and then a roll in the hay, that’s pretty healthy to me if both are content with it. Just because you don’t operate that way doesn’t mean it is unhealthy for those that do.
John says
Funny how Evan and others are talking about how alpha male definition is one that has confidence and pursues a girl. But from the book “The Alpha Rules” here is an excerpt:
1.Women love men who present a challenge.
2.Women are fascinated by men who are “in demand” and obviously have other romantic/sexual options. Women, by nature, are jealous and competitive when it comes to men. Give her the sense that she’ll have to step up and WIN you away from other women, and the game is on!.
Is it any wonder why there is so much confusion about alpha male roles and theories? Evan and others classify alpha as a guy who has confidence and pursues women. Another book says to do the opposite and let the women essentially fight over each other which is what I was doing. So who is right? If nobody can even agree on a definition then how can anyone even agree on the best tactic?
Evan Marc Katz says
EXCELLENT point, John. Here’s how I resolve it.
If you want a high-value woman, you don’t try to convince her to win YOU over. High-value women don’t chase. They’re not desperate or needy. They know what they’re worth. They can have any man on the planet. You make an effort, they can be yours. You don’t, you have no chance.
If you want a low-value woman, your PUA stuff will work great. Keep her off balance. Don’t show consistent effort. Never commit or call. Only text. Be careful not to be nice or spend money. The only women you’ll end up with are the ones who lack enough self-esteem to walk away from the bullshit games.
I’ll put in the effort and get the high-value woman, thanks.
Sparkling Emerald says
In regards to men who like women to initiate/pursue etc.
Just some observations on a long time family friend who said he felt the same. I remember when he was dating, he would take a woman out on one or two dates. Then he would say it’s “their turn” to ask him out, and if they didn’t call and ask him out, that was that. I don’t know if his thinking was that they JWITH, or if really, he tired of their company and this was a handy excuse to pull the amazing disappearing man trick. I do know one girl was REALLY into him, but she flunked his “she must initiate the third date rule”. The woman he eventually married, was quite alpha, and from my limited observation, it seemed she led the relationship, and apparently passed his criteria for initiating. Fast forward a few years and 2 kids later. She micro-managed his time with the kids. If she’d be gone for the day, she left him pages of “instructions” on what to do with the kids, and questioned him when she returned, and GOD FORBID, if he substituted afternoon art activity with water balloon fights in the back yard, or if nap time was pushed up an hour, or if he decided to let the kids snack on something other than the designated snack. His “honey do” list on other matters was a mile long, and once again, had to be completed to exact standards. Fast forward to one kid in college and one grown and flown . . . He is now living somewhere he’s not to happy about, because she wanted to live somewhere else. They have been in relationship counseling almost from day one of their marriage. They have talked about divorce, but are still trying to work things out. He isn’t too happy.
OK, I am not one of their numerous marriage counselors here, but I DO wonder if on some level he is unhappy about having his balls in a vice by his alpha wife. I could be dead wrong, I’m no expert but . . .
Guys, be careful what you wish for, when wishing for a woman who will initiate and pursue *
*Disclaimer — Your results may vary.
Morris says
@John #119 – you highlighted it yourself. ‘…the game is on!’
I’m sure an alpha that wants to play the field would do well taking that advice. I don’t see how you can confuse that with the alpha male that wants to be in a ltr and goes out and gets what he wants. He’s not going to sit back and take whatever falls in his lap. Or limit his options to only those women.
Ruby says
If a man doesn’t offer to pick up the tab on the first date, one of 3 things goes through my mind: he’s not into me, he’s not into anything serious, or he’s cheap. I’m not particularly concerned with how much a man spends on early dates. If it’s coffee or drinks, no problem. A neighborhood walk or something inexpensive is fine. If I like the man, I’m not going to be put off by an inexpensive date. But a man who is hung up on getting a “return on his investment”, as if I am a piece of real estate, who would describe his dates in terms of “cost per lay”, well, let’s just say, I am not so stupid – or so desperate – that I can’t see through that. But the girls who just want, as Dean put it, “a roll in the hay” are probably going to be okay with that. Small investment, small results. Not really EMK’s target audience, though.
There’s also a difference between being receptive and pursuing. I’ve dated some men who were pretty beta, and they still wanted to pursue if they liked me. As someone who’s dated alot, and has read just about every dating advice book or blog out there, the common mantra is “Let him pursue you.” Why do you suppose the dating gurus – of who there are many more than there are PUA advisors – all advocate that? I’d say the PUA philosophy might work for what it was intended for: to pick up women, but for a LTR, it would fail miserably.
Any woman out there dating encounters her share of jerks, but if you’re a nice guy and we like you, you will stand out.
Ruby says
Sorry, meant to add that if I liked the guy who didn’t offer to pick up the check, I’d probably see him again. But I’d have my guard up. It’s quite doubtful that any sort of relationship would come of this encounter anyway.
Helen says
There’s too much black-and-white in this discussion. “High-value women don’t chase.” “Low-value women are susceptible to PUA actions.” There is a lot of judgment – of both men and women – and a lot of categorization without recognizing that what suits men and women varies enormously across spectra. On that note, I agree with Nathan and John. There is no one-size-fits-all solution.
Each of us is intelligent enough (I believe) to be able to test the waters and determine what style works for the person with whom we’re interacting. Likewise, each of us has a natural style, which may be more proactive or receptive, and doesn’t fall neatly along gender lines. I am more proactive by nature. Many women and men who interact with me like this, Some don’t. It’s easy to tell. I, then, have the choice either to alter my style to accommodate those who clearly don’t like an initiating female (even in business or friendship contexts), or to forego a relationship with that person. We all have that choice.
But it certainly doesn’t fall into the lines of “All alpha men, or all worthy men, don’t like women to pursue; and if they want women to pursue, they’re doing or thinking something wrong or they’re not alpha.” In fact, most men I know are extremely receptive and responsive to fulfilling women’s wants, which is one of the things I love about men. And they’re certainly not all betas. They’re successful, good men who like it when a woman expresses what she wants.
The other point I want to mention is that I’m now of an age where I see that the whole alpha-male-pursuing trick isn’t necessarily successful in LTRs and marriages. Fifteen years ago, we and all our friends were getting married. Since that time, a few have gotten divorced, but only recently have there been a LOT of couples in our cohort getting divorced. In many of the cases, the man was an alpha who pursued, but once he got her, he felt that she should do all the household chores even if she had a job, and felt that he could still sit back and critique her like a boss.
So let me throw out the idea that it’s not enough to casually say something like, “Women, you can let your more proactive side come out after you’ve snagged the man with your receptive side.” It doesn’t work that easily. Once a relational pattern has been established, it’s hard to change – and I feel like this gets glossed over way too much in discussions here. I.e., what happens AFTER getting the guy, not just in a few months, but over years and decades?
Anecdotes aren’t everything, but I’ll just add my story: that I am a pursuer, never tried to ape a different persona in all the years I knew my husband, and we’ve been doing really well. There is something to be said for being happy with your real self and letting it shine.
Thanks for letting me express this alternative viewpoint.
Henriette says
@Dean 98. Thanks for sharing your experience with paying less/ lay. I find it interesting. What I wonder if you’re seeing is women react to what they see as thought & creativity, rather than low dollar amount. I mean a nice dinner out is lovely but it doesn’t show much imagination on the dude’s part; its pretty standard and as such, could be seen as slightly beta. If a man takes me to a free exhibition at a local art gallery and then we go for a walk in the park where he buys me an ice cream, it demonstrates some forethought and it’s not just the “same old, same old.”
And, I find it interesting that so many guys here seem to believe that a woman who calls/ texts/ initiates is necessarily more interested than the women who don’t. If anything, my honest-to-goodness experience has ben the opposite. The woman who genuinely likes a guy will often hang back a bit whereas the woman who initiates contact is often just a female “playah” who enjoys head games.
SalsaQ says
Helen 125 “There’s too much black-and-white in this discussion.”
Oh thank-you Helen! Slotting people into two-dimensional roles can be illustrative as hyperbolic examples, but rarely jibe with reality. Posters on this blog drift into wanting to take these roles completely literally.
Example:
“….he would take a woman out on one or two dates. Then he would say it’s “their turn” to ask him out, and if they didn’t call and ask him out, that was that. …The woman he eventually married, ….led the relationship, and apparently passed his criteria for initiating. Fast forward …His “honey do” list on other matters was a mile long, and once again, had to be completed to exact standards. … They have been in relationship counseling almost from day one of their marriage”.
The implication is anyone who asks a man out on date three will be a micromanaging control freak.
Warning flags!!! Led the relationship instead of being a partner and relationship counseling since day one. Those were the real signs of trouble.
Control freaks will be aggressive, because they want to control the arc of the relationship and _one_ feature of that _might_ be to initiate dates early on. The converse that all or even most women initiating a date are definitively flawed, needy or a control freaks is positively ludicrous. Is it more likely there is a control problem in that woman? Probably. That does not equate to highly likely.
You have to look at the whole of the interaction, not a single litmus test about whether a gender steps out of a rigidly defined role.
Ruby says
Helen #125
Of course, there are always exceptions and gray areas. Just out of curiosity, did you actively pursue your husband then? Or were you the just the first to indicate interest?
Sparkling Emerald says
@Henriette 126
IRT @Dean 98. Thanks for sharing your experience with paying less/ lay. I find it interesting. What I wonder if you’re seeing is women react to what they see as thought & creativity, rather than low dollar amount. I mean a nice dinner out is lovely but it doesn’t show much imagination on the dude’s part; its pretty standard and as such, could be seen as slightly beta. If a man takes me to a free exhibition at a local art gallery and then we go for a walk in the park where he buys me an ice cream, it demonstrates some forethought and it’s not just the “same old, same old.”
————————
YES, YES, YES !!!! I find a free cultural festival in the park to be way more interesting and fun, gives us more ways to interact and shows more creativity than the standard dinner and or movie date. Also, in my case, it shows that the guy read and responded to my online dating profile, because on both date sites that I am on, there is a section for you to list your idea of a good date. I list concerts in the park,(which are abundant & free locally) First Friday art walks (which are free and most people in this locale know that) Where I live, there is a plethora of fun FREE things to do, and anyone who has read my profile and knows this locale knows that I can be a fun, low cost or no cost date. I would rather the first few dates be about having fun, being playful and getting to KNOW someone, rather than about some guy trying to impress me by throwing his money around, or worse yet, trying to get the maximum sexual “return on his investment” like I am a whore on the street. I would rather be running barefoot through the fountains in the park (along with the other kids 🙂 ) with my date while the sounds of free jazz float through the air, and then go to the museum (which is free on Sunday) I can find out much more about the person on this kind of date. Does he mind running through the fountains with me? Does he get annoyed that I will probably take 20 photos of random objects as we are meandering through the park? If a group of strangers ask me to take a group photo of them,& I do, does he get impatient ? Does he think I’m silly and immature if I get a big sparkly flower painted on my face? If the answer to any of the above is “Yes”, he’s probably not the guy for me, and it didn’t cost him a dime to find out that we aren’t a good match. And if we are a potential match, it didn’t cost him a dime to find out either. (Although, if he wanted to treat me to a gelato I wouldn’t object 🙂 ) I really don’t think we could find out as much about each other at a five star restaurant.
Angie says
@ John 119 – Actually, I 100% feel that those statements you have made about women are equally true about men. I feel that men are WAY more likely to try to lock it down / put a ring on it / push a commitment when they feel like they’ve EARNED the relationship or are forced to raise the stakes somehow.
I personally find this stressful, because once I am comfortable in a relationship, I like to be my usual sweet self. I’d have no respect for a man if I felt I had to game him, but the guys I’m not that into (for GOOD reasons) who work to step up their own game are always declaring how in love they are, while the guys I attempt to meet in the middle and feel I have a healthy relationship with always seem to have some “I know I like you and I like our relationship, but I don’t want to marry you” issue. (Though, when Evan talks about his indecision when he first started dating his wife, I feel like that’s what my experiences have been… but they don’t bring it up until the year mark AND they didn’t marry me!)
Maybe I need to read “Why Men Marry Bitches” or something. I don’t get why men or women need a challenge. I want a best friend, not a challenge.
Clare says
Dean # 111
Personally, I think your dates of duck feeding at the pond, or rollerblading, or a walk in Manhattan sound lovely, and I don’t mind in the least if a guy doesn’t spend a lot of money on me on the first couple of dates, as long as he is initiating and planning it, and putting the effort in, and most of all, showing an *interest* in me. Hell, I wish my rich ex-boyfriend had planned dates which were half so thoughtful.
I don’t really expect a guy who is a perfect stranger to shell out a lot of money before I am his girlfriend, I am far more interested in getting to know him as a person, and in him getting to know me. However once we were in a relationship, I would expect him to start investing in me, and this would include, though not be limited to, financially.
I have to absolutely, 100% second what Karmic is saying. The only reason those PUA techniques would work on high-value women is because they increase the guy’s confidence, which is by far the most attractive quality. I think it’s wise to consider how much money you are spending in dating a number of women, but just don’t lose sight of what will really draw a woman in strongly – confidence, charm, ease and sincere interest in who she is.
Helen says
Thanks, SalsaQ. I noticed that example too, and found that it fell short for all the reasons you describe. Black and white thinking will only cause people to eliminate or accept others on a very limited basis, which is detrimental in relationships of all types.
Frimmel says
One of the things I find interesting and entertaining about this blog (and what at first had me perceiving Evan as a ‘red pill guy’ instead of a traditionalist) was his willingness to say, “This is how Men are. A man might not be like that. It is fine to want a man like that and do things counter to how Men are but you will make things more difficult on yourself.” I fully understand that is being said to me with regards to my preference for women who aren’t entirely passive.
This preference does in fact come from a confidence problem. Confidence that I understand how Women are and confidence that I want a woman who is not like that. I fully understand that this makes my dating life more difficult, particularly given how small a pool it is, because Women are not like my preference.
I also understand about being more alpha. I can do that. I’m still surprised at how easy it is to get the hamster running in its wheel. But I’m not looking for sex with a rotation of vacuous entitlement princesses and that lifestyle doesn’t fit my value system. James Bond gets the girl but he doesn’t keep her does he?
Joe says
Evan, correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like you’re saying that women should be entirely receptive until they are in a committed relationship, but once that happens they are allowed to be pro-active? And conversely, that men should do all the leading until in a committed relationship, and then they should let women do some of the work?
Evan Marc Katz says
@Joe: Yes, generally speaking, I teach women that men reveal themselves in their actions. If he wants to call, he’ll call. If he wants to see you, he’ll see you. If he wants to commit, he’ll commit. You can’t “make him” do any of these things. Sit back, observe his behavior, and if he’s not making you feel like a priority (a girlfriend) after 6-8 weeks or so, get rid of him. His effort can win her over, but if he’s ambivalent, not ready for a relationship, or, as we’re seeing here, not confident enough to claim her, he’s not the best boyfriend for you. One can suggest that the guys who wait for women to call/text/ask them out early on are the “nicest” guys, but really, they’re just the guys who have a built-in excuse for their own failure. If you have a great connection with someone, if you hook up physically for someone, are you REALLY going to stand on ceremony and wait for her to call you? And then give up if she doesn’t? God bless you folks.
@Frimmel – James Bond COULD keep the girl if he wanted to. He doesn’t. That’s pure alpha. He’s a conqueror. It’s all about the chase, not about building the LTR. These guys are dangerous to women because they’re the most attractive, but also the most selfish and unreliable. I’m not trying to turn this into a alpha vs. beta definitional debate.
I’m hoping this thread points out the holes in the argument of the passive guys who wait for interested women to call. Many of them won’t. They want you to show them that you’re interested, because many times when THEY chased men, they ended up with nothing. So I tell them not to chase men. Because YOU’ve chased women and sometimes ended up with nothing, you came up with this idea that you should no longer do “all the work” at the beginning. Problem is that that philosophy is failing you. If you like a woman and she likes you equally, you can call her every single day and not freak her out. You just have to have confidence and be able to take the temperature of the relationship.
Selena says
SalsaQ: “The implication is anyone who asks a man out on date three will be a micromanaging control freak.”
I didn’t interpret Sparkling Emerand’s post that way. My take was that her family friend who would automatically dump a woman if she didn’t ask him out after 2 dates was looking for a woman who would drive the relationship. And he found one. What he didn’t anticipate was along with her willingness to drive came some less-than-desireable traits.
Similar to your post #125 Helen. You describe friends who married alpha males and subsequently found those men expected them to do all the household work,as well as hold down a job, while sitting back and critiqueing her like a boss. The takeaway? Traits one is attracted to sometimes come as part of a package that includes traits that can make one miserable.
I think SE’s conclusion, “Be careful what you wish for…” is apt.
Sparkling Emerald says
Clare @94 & Selena @ 96 – Thank you very much !
Goldie says
I just have to say that I’ve been to the High Line Park once, and a walk through it sounds like an awesome date! To me, it would say that the man has put some thought into organizing the date, not just picked the first restaurant out of the list. I’ve had hiking dates; once a guy took me to a balloon festival; another one took me to Ingenuity Fest, which takes place once a year in our downtown area and is a showcase of experimental art, music, technology, what have you (that year it was also held under a bridge). We walked around till we got hungry, then stopped by a booth and bought a simple chicken and rice dish to share. I still remember these dates two years later. I have a hard time remembering all the dinner ones.
@ Helen #125 – I went after my (now-ex) husband too, and got him. But we were 19 and 20 at the time, in college together, and had many mutual friends. Online dating between middle-aged people, who don’t know each other, is different. As I mentioned on this thread before, there’s a lot of crazy out there. If I come on too strong too soon, I may accidentally give off a pushy, clingy, or crazy vibe and make the guy cut off contact with me altogether. He’ll drop me before I ever get a chance to explain that I am actually a very nice and likable woman! A man once told me a story about how he dropped a woman over a single text. She wanted to meet on a Saturday night; he texted back saying ” thanks but I feel like being alone right now”. She texts him back and says “why don’t I come over so we can be alone together.” He ended things with her as soon as he got that message. IMO there’s a time and a place for everything. I can always show my proactive side later. I don’t have to pretend really; to be honest, I don’t feel like being proactive with a guy I barely know. It just doesn’t feel the same as acting proactive towards someone you have a close relationship with.
Selena says
I don’t see let-the-man lead/be receptive in early dating as supressing/changing one’s personality then doing a *bait and switch* after ‘getting’ him. It’s merely following a short term pattern when you are first getting to know each other. How well do you think you know a man after one date? 2? 3? 4?
Do you know after date 2 you are dating a guy like John who wants to co-court? (And might dump you if you don’t ask him out pronto) If you follow your inclination to ask a guy out after 1 -2 dates, are you confident that he wouldn’t be thinking: “We’ve only been out once/twice and here she is making plans for us. Uh oh. ? How do you know you are not dating a guy like “cost per lay” Dean? I believe most men are going to be similar to Evan – initiating calls, asking them out isn’t necessarily a turn off, but it’s not going to make them more interested either.
Since I don’t feel I know someone that well after only spending a handful of hours with them, it just seems sensible to observe their actions until we know each other better. When that happens, who calls/text/emails first, which of us suggests fun date activities is a non-issue. I’m genuinely puzzled why women would find this difficult or distasteful.
Selena says
Goldie: “IMO there’s a time and a place for everything. I can always show my proactive side later. I don’t have to pretend really; to be honest, I don’t feel like being proactive with a guy I barely know. It just doesn’t feel the same as acting proactive towards someone you have a close relationship with.”
Yes! That describes how I feel as well. 🙂
AS says
I have read a variety of blogs where men are giving dating advice, as a woman it’s always interesting to learn about dating and relationship from a male’s perspective. And by far, I would just like to take this opportunity to say that Evan your blog stands head & shoulders above the rest! You keep it real and honest, without being gender bias, so a big thank you!
Ruby says
Goldie
“Online dating between middle-aged people, who don’t know each other, is different.”
So true. Dating, in general, is different between middle aged people who have been around the block, and meet online, and much younger people without much relationship experience or confidence, who might get to know each other more organically, and may already be friends.
Helen says
Goldie 137: being proactive isn’t the same as being pushy or failing to take hints (or failing to take outright statements, for that matter). The woman in your story sounds slightly creepy. The guy tells her he wants to be alone, and she still keeps forcing her presence on him? That’s not proactive, that’s disrespectful. And yes, you’re right; there is a lot of crazy out there.
Ruby 128: I was the first to email the man who is now my husband, and then when we happened to be in the same venue before we’d scheduled to meet, I approached him anyway and introduced myself. Later he told me that he found me cute. I asked him to join me in many activities, most of which didn’t cost anything; we were students (a lot older than Goldie and her ex, though). He proposed, though; I didn’t do that part!
nathan says
One thing that I’ve grown tired of with dating advice is the absolutist approach that so many dating writers employ. Over the past few years, I’ve read dozens of different dating blogs, columns, articles, books, etc. And the take away from most is that “I have the answers you seek and everyone else is either wrong or not as great.” That might be accurate in for targeted groups, but I highly doubt anyone has the market on dealing with the majority of people and their dating and relationships. In some ways, it makes sense to have a lot of confidence in what you’re offering, but the kind of polarized conversations you sometimes see here are common all over. On PUA sites. Feminist dating sites. Religious based dating sites. And really, it’s laughable – and sad – how often people with different opinions are dismissed as either defective or simply abnormal. A serious amount of circling the wagons going on, amongst other things.
What’s interesting is that many of these writers have specific target audiences, and yet end up generalizing their advice to everyone. In addition, people tend to identify with the author’s experience and background, and so whatever they say seems true, and they’ll fight off anyone who says otherwise. Natalie Lue’s blog Baggage Reclaim is often an excellent read, but it’s quite clear that her target audience is women who have, or used to have, self esteem issues. The comments section is almost all women, and the vast majority of comments are either praising Natalie’s writing or offering up their own stories of struggle, confusion, or triumph. Some of her writing is great for anyone reading, but some of it really is only useful for those who fit her target audience. And I think that’s true for most.
S.E.’s quandary is really the modern quandary. Because model of heterosexual dating that developed during the early to mid 20th century has been broken open, and now there are tons of approaches. It’s liberating on the one hand, and confusing on the other hand. Evan is correct that there are many reasons why a woman might not initiate much early on. I just know that my own experience has been that heavy pursuit has always been a dead end, driven by physical attraction and a story I had about someone. And that all of my long term relationships have been, from nearly the beginning more shared. Where it wasn’t all on me to keep the ball rolling. I know I’m not alone in this experience, and frankly, I think it’s most wise to follow what is successful for yourself.
To me, the value of any dating advice is it’s ability to help you change unsuccessful patterns. If you find yourself constantly in dead end situations, or attracting destructive partners, that’s where dating advice can come in handy. But S.E., you’ll never figure out what’s driving all the guys you on dates. Some of them might be following a certain set of advice or rules, and others are just going it on their own, doing what they do. If what Evan writes help’s you shift negative patterns, then go with it. If not, go with something else. Whatever you do, though, remember that the best advice in the end, just helps you be more your true self while you’re dating and in a relationship. That’s where the confidence comes from. When someone really embraces who they are, and lets it shine through.
Rose says
James Bond is a made up fantasy character. Great fantasy but he isn’t real. However I agree with Evan a man like that in reality would not be great husband and Father material.
Interesting The Alpha/ beta debate.
This made me feel amused and agreed with a lot of what was said.
http://deadwildroses.wordpress.com/2013/04/06/alpha-mras-stupid-as-the-day-is-long/
At the end of the day a wise real grown up women will not want and be attracted to childish bad boy narcissistic low empathy behavior manboys who experience women as objects, rather that real people with their own needs wants thoughts and desires unique to them .Seeing them only in terms of what he can get, playing several off against each other seeing who will give him the most of what he wants admiration, fun, encouragement, attention pressure free non committal sex. chasing them and paying for dates etc. if what she is wanting is someone who has the best grown up qualities for a long term mate.
A high quality grown up woman wants a high quality grown up man who wants to and is capable of providing for and raising a family together and who’s wants, needs and desires match her own. Basically good husband material.
The question that springs to mind is Why would a woman pick a boy to do a mans job? If a man is what she wants.
Susan61 says
Very interesting thread.
Somehow yesterday though googling I came across this guy (apparently a member of the PUA community) named Brent Smith. If you go to youtube and type in “Brent Smith pursuing” you will come across several videos where this Brent guy, reportedly a master in the dating realm, is counseling average guys NOT to pursue women, NOT to pay on dates, and to let women PURSUE men. It was very interesting to watch a bunch of these videos. I have to say, I understand why Brent’s method probably does work for many guys. Nobody wants the guy who is staring at them, who comes right over and immediately (sometimes nervously) asks them out. Who then calls too much, texts too much, pursues too much. Most attractive women have experienced this phenomenon and it sucks because sadly, it is rare that we are attractive to men in such HOT pursuit. Usually we want the guy who is NOT pursuing us. Egads, I cannot believe I’m agreeing with a PUA on the internet.
This PUA stuff is seriously infusing the culture, in fact, my last short-lived romantic interest told me on our FIRST meeting that his “coach” had given him a homework assignment to read a seminal book on PUA (“The Game”) – he told me this within 5 minutes of meeting me. I thought it was rather hilarious at the time (and in retrospect, was a bit of a…er….red flag). My date was a 45 y.o. divorced, highly educated, of “good stock” father of two young children.
I hate to admit, sheepishly, that as a 50 y.o. veteran of the dating minefield, that I agree with some of Brent Smith’s ideas. As nathan points out above, heavy pursuit often results in a dead end for many men; perhaps because it is natural when one is being chased by anything (a man, a woman, a dog) the reaction is to recoil, hide and/or run in the opposite direction. When men are expected to always assume the role of pursuer and thus always be the ones to face rejection while women are passive receptors, men can be rejected MANY times. And who likes rejection? No one.
The reality, in my humble opinion and this is not big news, is that everyone (OK, not EVERYONE but lots of people) wants what (the person) they cannot have. Maybe I am ridiculous picky (yes, I’ve been accused of this), but through my life, I can say with honesty that unless there was a somewhat immediate shared attraction between myself and a particular man, I rarely liked the men who pursued me. The same holds true today. And I would wager that my experience is not that unusual. It is very common for people to desire that member of the opposite sex who is somewhat unavailable, mysterious, not quite attainable. As I said before, this is NOT big news. 🙂 And certainly, there are MANY, many exceptions to this rule (people who are fed up with wanting what they can’t have, are willing to settle to some degree with a partner who is not their ideal, want to raise a family, etc). In fact, in many relationships, I believe a certain amount of ‘settling’ is required by at least one party if one truly desires a solid, long-term relationship (e.g. “Marry Him” Lori Gottlieb).
I guess I’m not much of a settler and thus I’m still single but you know what, it’s OK. It’s good to be alive. Needless to say, I’m as dumbfounded as anyone else and i still find the dance between the sexes ultimately fascinating, unfailingly interesting, mysteriously intoxicating and sometimes utterly infuriating.
Susan61 says
CORRECTION: this should say: because sadly, it is rare that we are ATTRACTED to men in such HOT pursuit.
Clare says
nathan 144
I think you make a fair point.
However I think the danger is when the desire for something “more shared” becomes insecurity instead. I recently had a lovely first date with a guy, after he had done really won me over by phoning and e-mailing me a couple of times beforehand, which I really enjoyed, and he followed up shortly after to set up a second date. He couldn’t wait to see me, he said. I accepted his second date enthusiastically, but then later on asked if we could move it to slightly later in the evening because my father was being discharged from hospital. This seemed to take the wind completely out of his sails and he first said it was fine, then later called me back and cancelled and said he would get hold of me to set up another date. I heard nothing from him, and then a couple of days later got a brusque e-mail from him saying he didn’t think it would work out because he wanted a relationship to be 50/50 and he seemed to be the only one doing the contacting and the planning. I was a bit floored because he had it SO wrong, but I wished him well and went on my way.
Guys, the vast majority of women will wait till you are an established couple and then start giving A LOT to a relationship, but you will never find that out if you are too insecure to put in the work and give it a chance at the beginning.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Clare – Thank you. That’s my point entirely. For lack of a better term, beta males have such an aversion to either “rejection” or the fear of “smothering”, that they give up WAY too easily. They’re just like hypersensitive women who have been burned by men and reject them at the first hint that he might be pulling away. This is their insecurity – and they want everyone else to work on it for them – to compensate for their fears.
nathan says
Claire – I see that situation in a couple of ways, none of which have to do with your “insecure” diagnosis, which is also a possibility. 1. The guy was upset that you tried to change the plans he made and backed off. If that was the case, the whole 50/50 was nonsense. He’s a controller. And what he really wanted was a woman who would put everything aside for him. 2. He met someone else and used the shift in plans as an excuse to appear upset. Not terribly adult, but it certainly happens with both men and women sometimes. 3. His initial excitement waned and he made a shoddy exit. I can’t tell you the number of “great” first dates I went on that included excitement on both ends, which ended up either not making it to a second date, or made it to the second date and everything was flat. Sometimes, I wasn’t into it. Sometimes, my date wasn’t into it. And sometimes, both of us realized it had just been a good first date, and that’s all.
People put so much stock on trying to execute certain roles, rules, appearances, etc. in the beginning stages, when the reality is that there are countless variables at play. What I find interesting is that some folks expect perfect strangers to suddenly drop everything in their lives and “demonstrate” their utmost interest right now, and forever. I get the sense that women expect this more than men – given all these expectations around men pursuing and such – but some men act in a similar way. And will bail (like Claire’s date perhaps) if a woman doesn’t seem to be aligning her entire schedule in his direction.
Frankly, things like online dating have changed so much – some for better, and some for worse in my view. But odds are that both parties on any given date have at least one other person they’re talking with online, and/or are going out on dates with. It just seems to me unrealistic to expect anyone to do all the heavy lifting early on, receive only positive reflection, always in response, in return, and choose you based on that alone. To get it that you are super interested, as opposed to either luke warm, but going along for the ride or not interested, but having some fun.
Given that most single folks have busy lives, and if they’re doing online dating, are juggling multiple connections, it seems a lot more practical for both parties to be at least a little proactive. In order to make the message clear. Because maybe you are one of two or three women, for example, both responding positively to the same guy. This is one of the reason’s why I support Evan’s call for women to work for commitment from a man before having sex. Odds are you aren’t the only one those first weeks, even first months. A lot of folks seem to forget this, and have expectations based upon being the only one.
I think there’s a lot of mythology around romance, the chase, the pursuit, and the like which comes from the days before the internet, and before easy travel and mobility, where people had fewer options, where gender roles where highly fixed, where there often weren’t two competing schedules to deal with, and where things usually unfolded in a certain way. These days, it’s a lot more complicated. And I think it’s a little too easy to get into gender blame games and judgments, instead of recognizing that there are a tone of variables at play and you can only control a tiny percentage of them.
I’ve done everything “textbook proactive, confident guy” before and ended up empty handed. And I have also been nervous, a little passive and not 100% on initial dates, and ended up with a long term relationship. There’s still some mystery to it all, despite all the rules and supposed dating truths out there.
Ruby says
Susan61 #146
I think what you are missing here is that, traditionally, men do pursue, and women expect it. I really don’t think that’s something that has changed much. If you’ve ever tried to pursue a man, you know that in the vast majority cases, it doesn’t work. So the problem with someone like Brett Smith’s approach, is that many women will just assume that the guy isn’t interested and move on.
“When men are expected to always assume the role of pursuer and thus always be the ones to face rejection while women are passive receptors, men can be rejected MANY times. And who likes rejection? No one. ”
We’ve ALL been rejected, male and female. If a man calls a women, and she doesn’t return his call, that’s rejection. If you go out with a guy you like, and he never calls you again, that’s rejection. So I don’t think it has that much to do with who initiates, because someone also has to respond to the pursuit. And if I like a man, I want him to pursue, so I am not going to be recoiling or running away. Women only do that when a man doesn’t take the hint, and keeps chasing, even after no mutual interest has been expressed. Letting a man initiate in the beginning doesn’t mean that the woman sits there like a lump on a log and never does anything. It certainly doesn’t mean that a woman doesn’t respond.
michelle says
Interesting that Evan’s paragraph here, if you replace men with women, it is the same way it works women–for both sexes, confidence is very attractive. We go about things a little differently as men and women, because after all, we’re different. But overall, the human experience is the same.
Confident guys (WOMEN) assume that you’re going to like them. They have no doubt that they’re going to get a second date, a good night kiss, and more. Those men (WOMEN) are often the men (WOMEN) that women (MEN) desire the most. And I can say, definitively, that a confident man (WOMAN) chooses his (HER) partner; he (SHE) doesn’t sit back and wait to be chosen.
marymary says
I was willing to risk the knock back when I asked the boyfriend out. However, if I was giving broadbrush advice rather than individual coaching, I’d always say that it’s not wrong for a man to initiate at least the first few dates. More women will expect and accept it than those who won’t. It would have spared me some stress and anxiety if he HAD asked me out but I don’t hold it against him. I did tease him about it and he apologised rather than come back with any explanation or excuses.
Susan 61
As for wanting what I can’t have, I learned a long time ago that it’s a recipe for disaster. If the boyfriend hadn’t been enthusiastic about going out with me I sure like to think that I’d have skipped along and not given it more than a second’s thought. Why would I want someone who doesn’t want me? It doesn’t compute. After our first date, we were in daily contact, he was always happy to see me, invited me out lots, said he loved me a few months later, was the first to talk of his longterm intentions, and I won’t be the one proposing if it comes to that. If it doesn’t look like he’s (very) interested, I’m not interested.
It may not all be black and white but if a man likes you and has good intentions, he will let you know. Unless he has some kind of problem, and that I cannot be dealing with.
elli says
Whether a woman should initiate or not… I have tried both ways and the result is… I am still single and reading blogs like this. For instance in my last dating experience I tried to follow the advice that a woman shouldn ´t initiate. I didn ´t phone him, I didn ´t ask him out, etc. The problem was that since I am not a passive type of woman by nature, I felt very unnatural in this role. Also, I wasn ´t able to adapt to his lead, I am simply not that type of a woman, I am independent and although I have a lot of typically feminine qualities, I also have some typically male charcteristics – I need my space, freedom, sometimes when the man called me I just wasn ´t in the mood to talk to him not because of him but simply because I needed to be alone, etc. So after this “experiment” of being passive I ´ve decided to never repeat it and rather follow my own rules. Oh, I would have forgotten to say that even the man didn ´t like my behaviour, as he eventually pointed out himself. He perceived it as tha lack of interest on my side. And now I understand why, because he wasn ´t stupid and he perceived right from the start that I was an active type and so assumed my passive bahaviour was disinterest.
I don ´t want to contradict all of this advce, who knows, maybe I really haven ´t met the right one and when I do, I will be able to just say “yes” and nothing else, who knows? From my previous experience, however, I have understood that a little initiative on the woman ´s side – not clinginess, of course – is highly appreciated.
Chance says
First off, I’m a guy, and I agree with everything Evan is saying about men initiating/pursuing and whatnot. I think the biggest component of male attractiveness comes from how he carries himself, and it is in the approach and pursuit of women where he has an excellent opportunity to demonstrate such.
That said, I wanted to bring up something that I don’t think has been brought up yet (I haven’t had the time to read all 150+ posts as they seem have wandered off the reservation from the original intent of the blog entry), and it has to do with the financial aspect of dating. I do like the woman to initiate after a handful of dates or so, but not because I’m trying to gauge her interest and I need some sort of validation that she’s into me. Rather, it’s because I don’t believe that I should have to pay all of the dates. I couldn’t stand it I dated women who expected me to pay for all of the dates just because I am a man, and if she didn’t offer to pay after four or five dates, I wouldn’t talk to her anymore. I realized that it would limit my dating options, but I didn’t want to date someone that had a brazen sense of entitlement. I can accept less dating options.
So, here’s the problem that I wanted to address: if a man is expected to initiate and plan dates during the courtship phase (which could last quite a bit longer than a handful of dates, perhaps even a few months with couples that are taking things slowly), that pretty much means he’s going to have to pay for all of those dates. I know I would not feel comfortable, quite guilty in fact, if a woman paid for a date that I planned.
There is also this general rule that I’ve heard from many women before: If you ask for the date, you pay for the date.
Evan, I think I remember you mentioning in a previous post that you believe that if a woman doesn’t pay, or at least offer to pay, after a handful of dates or so, then he should leave her (don’t hold me to it, but that’s my recollection). I know that’s what I would do and it’s what I have done. My question is would that advice still hold true if the man is initiating and planning for all of the dates? The reason I ask is because the courtship phase often lasts more than three or four dates, so how does it work as far as who pays for those dates? Should she pay for a date that the guy planned?
Evan Marc Katz says
Welcome back, Karl R. You’ve been missed.
@Chance, quickly: My advice is geared towards “what works”. Not what I want to work. What works.
So I tell guys to pay for everything until she’s your girlfriend. And I tell women to reach for the check from Date 1 and insist on paying by Date 3 or 4 (unless the man overrides her).
Men offering to pay demonstrates interest, chivalry, and connotes that you value her. Women offering to pay demonstrates appreciation for his generosity. Win/win.
Many people have made up their own rules to govern paying and often try to justify why they won’t do what I outlined above. All I can say is that they may feel “right”, but they may not be as effective.
Just like the guys who still expect women to call them and make plans for their second date.
Chance says
Good answer. Got it. Thanks.
Sparkling Emerald says
Susan61 146
Thanks for the info on Brent Smith. I did google him. Watching him speak, his facial expressions, body language, voice tone, and the fact that he IS very attractive, he just came off to me as an arrogant jerk. And I wouldn’t be surprised if he has an almost cult following of arrogant jerks in training. (and a string of booty calls also) He seems like EXACTLY the kind of guy our mothers warned us against. I’ll pass on the Brent Smith’s of the world, and hold out for a man who likes me enough to pursue me in the beginning. Once I’m his girl, I will help with the “heavy lifting”.
I have enjoyed the responses on this thread, I wish we could have a “like” button on them, there are so many posts here I would like to give a thumbs up to!
Clare says
nathan 150
For what it’s worth, I think you may well be right, and it may well have been an excuse. Good thing I wasn’t terribly cut up about it. But if I assumed for a moment that the reason he gave me was the *real* reason, it made me think wow, I can’t even have a parent sick in hospital and it’s construed as lack of interest?
I think your point about the complexities of dating, and the varying factors that lead ultimately to a relationship is a fair one, as I said. Let’s just say though that I think we should all be giving each other a lot of room, and benefit of the doubt, and not taking things too seriously, and employing common sense and *courtesy* early on, and I firmly believe that that will take care of many of these “complexities”.
La Miss says
You know that hot girl with the not so hot guy that makes you wonder how did he manage that? He’s punching above his weight. It’s cause he has balls. The balls to see something he wants, and grab it. Probably an attitude he has with most things in his life, not just women. I’m a woman who gets complimented on her looks pretty much every day (even though I’m a chubby 16 year old inside). I’m also not as arrogant as that makes me sound – promise. Anyway, my point is, I’m with Evan on this one. A man has nothing to lose in trying to claim a woman that he wants. That’s what we want. We’re all human, and a rejection will hurt. But I’m guessing that guy I was talking about, the one with the balls, he won’t let it knock him for long.
n.b. I’m aware I might get called on my use of sexist language so we can substitute balls for confidence. I just think balls sounds punchier.
JustMe says
Selena #138
Excellent!
Sparkling Emerald says
La Miss 160
I have observed those couples myself . And I think you are spot on in your observations !
Another factor in the hot girl with the cute-but-not necessarily-hot guy is that so many of the “hot guys” are narcissistic players, and will “pursue” the hot girls just for the thrill of of the chase, then dump her once she’s been “caught” Or she makes it clear that she won’t be caught without a commitment. (Hot guys, don’t jump on me for saying this, not all hot guys are like this, but there are plenty who are).
A girl who is “hot” and also smart about relationships will look beyond the surface, and end up with a guy based on how well he treats her and how he makes her feel about herself. To a discerning hot girl, a smoking hot “10” can quickly become a zero if he’s a jerk. The cute “7” who makes her feel wanted, desired and feminine by showing some balls, pursuing her, and making it clear that he’s “playing for keeps” and not just looking for a booty call, THAT guy can become a “10” in her eyes.
Henriette says
Most of the “meh”-looking guys I know who landed hot girls have scads of money, which takes them from a 5 (in the looks department) to a 10 in many women’s eyes. You should see all the gorgeous wives with troll-like hedge fund-manager husbands who live in my ‘hood!
Justin says
Interesting article but i believe that it’s mostly up to the man to know how to attract and pursue the women. For many years i use to blame women for not getting a good reaction from the, but it was really down to how i presented myself to a girl, and based on that she would decide weather or not she liked me. If a guy is fun and has a good personality, it shoud be easy for him to build good rapport with a women.
A woman is a lot more receptive to going on a date with you if you know how to make her feel you are the right guy for her, it’s all about knowing when and how to create chemistry when you first meet which will make it easy to ask the person out on a date. Just my two cents! 🙂
Karmic Equation says
@Dean 118
Yeah, that did sound kind of sappy, didn’t it? Didn’t come out the way I wanted it to.
If all you want is volume then your way works.
Value is about MORE than just cash outlay. Is a Hyundai a good value? Maybe if that’s all you can afford. Is a Ferrari a good value? Not really. But most men lust after Ferraris. They hide their Hyundais. Value is somewhere in between.
Don’t mean to offend women by comparing us to cars 🙂 If women had a choice, we’d prefer to be thought of and treated like Ferraris or Lamborghinis, not like Hyundais.
I guess the moral is that if you can’t afford a Lamborghini, that’s ok. And if you’re happy with your Hyundais, that’s ok too. But if you’re NOT happy with your Hyundai, you probably need to upgrade to a Ford, Chevy, Nissan, etc. That’s going to cost more money, but you get more value, not necessarily more “bang for the buck”, so to speak.
Joe says
Well, some men like women built for speed, and some men like women built for comfort. 😀
Karmic Equation says
LOL. Well, guess that’s another thing different between the sexes. Speedy men are not at the top of our lists 😉 Slow and steady wins the race. Comfortable men, maybe not… but men we feel comfortable around and who are willing and able to comfort us when we need them to, they are priceless.
Joe says
Speedy men are not at the top of your lists? Maybe not all of your (collective) lists, but why do so many women chase alpha males?
Karmic Equation says
Well, what I meant by not-speedy was slow love-making. You meant women who were quick to bed, I know. I was having fun twisting your meaning 🙂
In all seriousness, I can’t answer for other women when it comes to “chasing alpha males” — I make it a point to not chase, especially not alpha males.
Alpha males prefer to pursue. The pursuit demonstrates their confidence, so I let them. Because I want to see that confidence in action. And I want to know that he’s attracted enough to me to think I’m worth pursuing. If he doesn’t pursue me, then the attraction is just not there, so why chase?
If I were to guess why some women chase the alpha male, I would say they want to “have a chance at a relationship” with him. I don’t think those women get that while an alpha man WILL date and bed her if he thinks she’s attractive, HER pursuit of him, just puts her in the pack with the other chasing females. She’s one amongst many, nothing special. Not a good way to stand out amongst the competition imo. While she could indeed be a great gf/partner, her chasing him shows that SHE doesn’t believe SHE’s a prize, so why would an alpha who can have anyone, want a woman who doesn’t think of herself as a prize? He can do better by finding one thinks she is, so he does.
And if the male wants to be pursued? I would tend to think he’s not confident and wouldn’t characterize him as alpha.
Personally, I think alphas give off a pheromone that is really difficult to resist. My ex-player-once-bf-now-fwb is one of those alphas. His smell shuts off my thinking brain. I’ve literally buried my nose in one of his shirts and purred like a cat in catnip. I was laughing at myself even as I was doing it and couldn’t stop myself. I Love. His. Smell. OMG.
Senior Lady Vibe says
As suggested by one poster, I Googled “Doc Love” and took a quick peek. I discovered he’s been a dating coach since 1965! A lot older than I and I call myself “Senior Lady.” LOL Oh, well. Good for him but I don’t go along with any advice that tells guys not to call for days and days. I don’t like any kind of manipulative poppycock.
Senior Lady Vibe says
There are some interesting thoughts in this article:
http://www.thefrisky.com/2012-09-05/guy-talk-the-real-reason-women-shouldnt-make-the-first-move/
Cat5 says
I mentioned in posts 74 & 75, how dating on-line seems to have changed so much. First, men, in general, seem to be far more sexually aggressive in the e-mail stage then they were before. Second, men seem to be impatient if you don’t reply within a few hours when they contact you.
Now, I have a third thing to add. I’ve received a number e-mails saying how much they enjoyed reading my profile, it’s very well-written and funny, they think I’m very attractive, but they just don’t think we’d be a match, and good luck in my search. What the hell? I haven’t contacted them, this is the first contact. Why do they contact me just to tell me that? And why don’t they think that we are a match?
After thinking about it, there is only one thing I can point to — it started as soon as I turned 50. These guys, are the same age or up to 4 years older than me.
It’s very disheartening.
Ruby says
Cat5 #172
That is indeed odd. I’ve never encountered that. I’m guessing these men really do find you attractive, etc. Is there something in your profile that could be off-putting? In other words, they really would like to meet you, but there is something in the profile that puts them off, and they don’t come right out and say what it is. Are you in the age range of the men who are contacting you? Since these guys are your age and even older, doesn’t seem like that should be an issue.
Lisa says
Evan, why do you understand women so well?
I think you should add a new set of clients to your portfolio: Men messed up by PUA, the Game and BS like that. While I am not saying all of this is wrong it does end up making men undateable.
I dated a PUA briefly, almost a year ago. It was SO hard. He did some pursuing in the beginning but very shortly afterwards he started expecting so much from me. It seemed like he pulled away if I didn’t initiate contact maybe twice or three times as often as him. He was always so insecure and seemed to see a shit test or a low level of interest behind everything I was doing or saying, although he was extremely attractive. Finally I stopped contacting him and deleted his number.
I have been an acttractive woman all my life and to all the Johns in this debate I can tell you one thing: I am not used to pursuing. I have learned that men who like me will pursue me for the first 3-4 dates. If they don’t get in touch or ask me out again I certainly won’t do it myself, because this is how I have experienced the world around me. I might check their facebook page daily because I feel so attracted to them but I would NEVER ask them out first. To me, they are not interested if they don’t do it.
And rarely do women go on a bunch of dates with guys they have zero interest in. It’s not like it’s ANY fun being around a person who is obviously interested in you and you’re not. No, a free meal is not worth the hassle. So the fact women are willing to go out on a 2nd or 3rd date does mean something unless she isn’t totally insecure or has serious issues. If she, at some point, stops getting back to you, something must have happened. Maybe you did or say something that convinced her you are not the right person for her. But it happened along the way and wasn’t (completely) there from the beginning. If a situation like this seems totally odd for you ask her for feedback, you would be suprised! And has it never happened to you that you were interested at first but it changed? Dating is getting to know each other and not a contract.
And what also happens to many men, they come off to desperate. Although they are nice they make you feel like they would take ANYBODY who would take them. Women want to feel special. Too many guys give off that desperate vibe and being on a date with them makes you wonder why they like you because all that it seems to take is a vagina. These guys will continue being extremely unsuccessful and never understand why, because they do everything by the book, maybe have the looks and money. But they fail to see the person behind a woman.
Evan, you should really focus on insecure men a lot more. Don’t leave them to The Game!
Julia says
Thank you Lisa. This has been my experience completely and because I want a man who is both confident and wants me I would never pursue a man. I got a great boyfriend that way, I wouldn’t change my actions for the world.
Clare says
Karmic Equation #169
LOL about the smell of alpha men! It is a too-little-discussed aspect of male/female relationships.
My ex also has a smell that overrides any other process in my brain. His housekeeper uses a particular kind of fabric softener in all his laundry and his house smells of it, as do his clothes. That combined with the deodorant he uses, and his own particular smell, has an overwhelming effect on me. If I even smell that fabric softener I can barely control myself! LOL
JoeK says
I know htis was a while back in the comments, Evan – but I just HAVE to quote you. I’m not sure you realize how profound of a statement you made:
Evan #71
“Women don’t initiate for many, many, many reasons — you just ASSUME it’s because they’re not interested. Here are a few others: -Because she generally doesn’t have to. Interested men have always pursued her so she never had to reach out.”
What’s so profound about this? Since most men are doing the pursuing, they are setting the standard by which most women are going to compare us!
Thus the “norm” is men pursue – men take overt action to go get what they want. So while you’re waiting for more action on her part – she’s likely to be taken by the guy who’s taking action.
Evan Marc Katz says
Right you are, JoeK. “So while you’re waiting for more action on her part — she’s likely to be taken by the guy who’s taking action.”
And that’s one of the things that I don’t understand about beta males who defend their passivity – waiting for women to call them and show interest. It’s generally not an effective strategy, since the man who actively pursues the woman is the one who is making her feel valued and special. The man who waits for her to step up is simply left waiting. The fact that beta males sometimes find women who DO step up to call them is not necessarily proof positive that this is the optimal strategy.
Lacey says
I wrote the letter, fell asleep, and some dream napper fellow girl person stole and and sent it to this blog.
AllenB says
I agree about the initiation for first contact, asking out for first dates, but if she did not show she is interested by being responsive, my patience was short.
I pursued. I contacted women and I went out of my way to plan fun dates and would always have a good time going out. In those early stages, 1-4 dates in, I call with a suggestion or leave a voicemail/text to talk and if I didn’t hear back for a few days, I might try a second time, and if she didn’t make any effort, she would not hear from me again. Now, if the same woman reaches out to me a week or so later, I thought maybe she is interested but was busy, or some prospect she was also seeing turned out to be a creep or idiot, and might try the cycle with her again.
What I stopped doing is continuing to reach out more than once or twice to women who weren’t courteous enough to reply in a few days to even say “I am really busy with work/my sister right now. Lets talk later.” That response doesn’t take much time and is all the encouragement that is needed. One of the women I stopped reaching out to after a few dates when she didn’t respond complained I was “another one of those guys who seems interested but then disappears.” I was not going to waste my time and emotional energy on someone who doesn’t show some interest. No matter how good looking they were or how impressive in their profile, these were not worth my time and there are many more out there.
They didn’t get it. It blew my mind how many women were like this until I realized the ones who don’t get it end up overrepresented in the women who are single (I won’t say available, because they weren’t really available if they were not responsive.) About once a month I would initiate with a woman who DID get it and after a few of those I met my wife. I was not beta, but if every woman had behaved rudely or disinterested, I would have remained single and happy.
Evan Marc Katz says
Hey Allen, nobody ever told you to call women multiple times without a response. All I ever said was that if you like a woman, call her, instead of waiting for her to call you. If she doesn’t call you back, you don’t want her anyway.
Raymond says
I lost my wife 5 months ago. My mind becomes open to the possibility that someone can fill the void. For this reason I was attracted to this site. I find it a different world from the one that I knew. I find it totally alien that for simple human relationships there is a requirement to apply complex tactics and strategy. I believe that if you find you need this, either you have lost the art, or you are wasting each other’s time. Certainly, if I felt that any overt tactics or strategy was in place I would walk away.
Sparkling Emerald says
Hi Raymond – I am sorry for your loss. Yes, sometimes I wonder why I read the different blogs, etc on how to date and relate. Have things really changed THAT much in the dating world, that one needs to hire a coach, or read a manual, or take a class on how to date ? (Well, yes things HAVE changed a lot, and maybe that is why we need coaches, classes & “how to” manuals) Sometimes I think “My goodness, what did people do before relationship experts put together “Love Scripts” providing exact wording for every possible relationship situation ? How did the human race survive before men and women had professional script writers tell them what to say and what to do ?
I am the Original writer of the above letter, and just when I thought it was confusing enough, I started getting e-mails from one of my subscriptions that the return address was from a well know FEMALE dating coach, but the signature at the bottom of the e-mail was from a lesser known MALE dating coach. (not EMK)
Just made me go “hmmmmmm”. Something doesn’t pass the smell test. I wonder if these 2 coaches are even real people, or are just phantom online characters, devised by the same coaching company, only one geared for women who want the male POV and one for those who want the female POV.
Anyway, I get the most useful info from this blog, but it’s probably confirmation bias on my part. I had decided on my own, in my last incarnation as a dater (prior to my second marriage) to NOT CHASE MEN. (I did in my really young and dumb days, and NEVER had a successful relationship happen like that) I aslo HATE the games playing, so I devised my own system of letting a man lead and pursue withOUT playing hard to get. Just be receptive to his advances, and if he disappears, let him go. Then I find EMK’s blog, and he bascially tells the same thing to women, that I discovered on my own years ago. (He calls it mirroring) However, I did get his Finding the One Online and he had some very good concrete advice on writing a good profile and writing good e-mails, that I found useful, and didn’t think up on my own.
Star says
Sounds like some of the male posters here lack confidence and self-esteem to me.
I’d rather date someone like Evan. I’ve experienced the men who like to take a backseat and let the woman take the lead, and they are usually they flaky, blow hot and cold, oh so over sensitive ones that I now RUN a mile from.
Give me an Evan any day, a man with confidence, secure in his masculinity and isn’t afraid to take some chances. 🙂
judy says
Evan 71 – yes, if a man cannot pick up the phone and call me, I’d assume that
I) He didn’t enjoy the date
II) Doesn’t like me
III) Or if, I and II, are not true, that he’s
IV Passive. Passive men drive me nuts. (Been there, done that, and can’t be bothered).
Ellen says
In my experience all dating advice books, websites etc are just rubbish. They just reinforce stereotypes and eventually lead to mental illness as you try to make sense of all the conflicting advice. You cannot predict the future, and you cannot manipulate people to like you. That is life.
JD says
Women’s emotion is incredibly irrational, and while there’s a lot of horrible dating advice for men out there (most of it written by women), the good advice for men involves manipulating women’s emotions rather than demonstrating practical appeal.
Why? BECAUSE IT WORKS.
And because being all of the things on your “relationship checklist” gets us rejected in a heartbeat. Because your checklist is a lie, it’s not a factor in your attraction at all, and trying to pass its muster means forfeiting the emotional appeal that actually does matter.
Oh, and give the “chemistry” talk a rest. Being “easy to talk to” doesn’t spark a relationship; it sparks a friend-zoning. In fact, if there’s a single reason why dating is hard, it’s because the sum of what women think men should do amounts to an unabridged edition of “How to Friendzone Yourself.” As for “How to find happiness in a Relationship?” It’s simple for men: be the opposite of what women think they’re looking for.
Evan Marc Katz says
“The good advice for men involves manipulating women’s emotions rather than demonstrating practical appeal”
And there you have it. Insecurity meet insecurity. Any man who does this is insecure that he can’t be himself. Any woman that this works on is insecure, because the confident ones would kick game players to the curb. Pretty much a recipe for the worst possible relationship: avoidant, amoral, game-playing man and insecure, anxious woman waiting for him to treat her well. Like Donald Trump says: Sad.
JD says
There’s no insecurity involved. If “manipulation” were always bad, then all women would be terrible people, and if it required insecurity to do what you need to do to get what you want, everyone who achieves anything would be terribly insecure.
You’re putting a more negative construction on what I said than is warranted.
The point is, attraction is emotional, not rational, and most dating advice (especially any that starts with “looks don’t matter, because”) tells people to demonstrate rational value. As I said, this leads to friend-zoning, not emotional attraction.
Karl R says
JD,
What “relationship checklist” of Evan’s are you talking about? I searched the site, but the only reference to a “relationship checklist” I can find is this post of yours. Whatever list you’re referring to, it seems to have a different name.
Evan’s advice (specific to men):
“Nice guys with an edge finish first.”
“Nice guys with no balls finish last.”
“Women are attracted to a combination of passion and proficiency.”
JD said:
“Being ‘easy to talk to’ doesn’t spark a relationship; it sparks a friend-zoning.”
Okay. Are you witty, charming, flirty and funny? Or are you a good listener, patient and sympathetic, who makes all of the appropriate noises while the woman spills the sordid details of her worst trauma within an hour of when you first meet her?
Technically, both guys are easy to talk to, but the first one gets a romantic relationship. The second guy get’s to be the shoulder she cries on if things go wrong with the first guy.
JD said:
“being all of the things on your ‘relationship checklist’ gets us rejected in a heartbeat.”
I can’t think of any piece of Evan’s advice that was guaranteed to get me rejected.
If a woman found me unattractive, -then- I was guaranteed to get rejected, regardless of how much of Evan’s advice I followed.
But the critical piece of Evan’s advice (in that circumstance) is, “The person who dumped you is not your boyfriend,” (or in your case, girlfriend).
JD said:
“most dating advice (especially any that starts with ‘looks don’t matter, because’) tells people to demonstrate rational value.”
I can only think of one piece of dating advice that says “looks don’t matter” … and that’s from Ron White. (Actually, I think he’s got a really good point, but he’s certainly not the best source for dating advice.)
Once again, I think you’re missing the point of the dating advice. Looks aren’t what matters most. Therefore, if I pursued looks over any other consideration, I would have been making a mistake. If you pursue looks over any other consideration, you will be making a mistake.
Lots of men and women pursue looks over anything else … because this world is full of people making one stupid mistake after another.
JD said:
“The point is, attraction is emotional, not rational,”
Attraction may not be rational, but I am rational. Since I found multiple women to be attractive, I could choose which one(s) to pursue based on rational criteria.
If you find more than one woman attractive, and if you’re rational, you can do the exact same thing.
JD said:
“If ‘manipulation’ were always bad, then all women would be terrible people,”
Wow. You have such a high opinion of women. I can’t imagine why women aren’t falling all over themselves to date you.