How Many Pics Are Enough for Online Dating?

I have a particular question about sending pictures to potential dates. I have on my dating profiles two to three pictures, all recent. I’m honest about my age, height, and whatever else I write down. After exchanging numbers the men ask for more pictures. I understand they don’t want to be fooled so I send another one or two.

But the pattern is that they don’t stop demanding more. This has led me to stop talking to some guys who may have been a great potential. I wince when they ask me to send a “body shot”. Not because of issues with my image, but because they’ve seen other photos and I hate to think a date rides on how my body looks from this or that angle. I’m also uncomfortable with strangers I’ve never met having a stash of my photos.

I have guy friends who don’t see it from my point of view. That they’ve been duped in the past and women trick them with angles and lighting. How do I handle this in the future? I’m sure I’m not the only woman that feels this way!

Christine

I understand why you feel the way you do.

You don’t want to be objectified.

You don’t want to feel pressured.

You hate to think that you’re being evaluated on your looks.

But there’s always an issue between how the world works and how we want the world to work.

But there’s always an issue between how the world works and how we want the world to work.

I want to be able to eat whatever I want and not gain weight. Not how the world works.

I want to be able to write whatever I want without people getting mad. Not how the world works.

You seem pretty upset at how the world works – as evidenced by your own words:

I wince when they ask me to send a “body shot.”
I hate to think a date rides on how my body looks from this or that angle.
I’m also uncomfortable with strangers I’ve never met having a stash of my photos.

That last comment is a little extreme. Most guys aren’t photo-collecting stalkers; they’re men who don’t want to show up on another date with someone who is 25lbs heavier than advertised.

But you know that, Christine.

In fact, it sounds like you very much understand how the world works – you just don’t want to accept it. And, of course, it’s your right to do as you see fit.

The question is whether it’s serving your larger purpose. I would suggest it’s not.

You can protest men who ask for more photos by refusing to play along with their request.

You can write off all men who ask for more photos by assuming they’re all shallow, which is partially true.

But, as you said, chances are that some of these men are decent guys who have been fooled by one too many women who misrepresented themselves.

Thus, there’s a pretty obvious solution: stop men from asking the very question you abhor.

Instead of posting two recent photos that don’t include full body shots, post 7 photos that do.

Instead of posting two recent photos that don’t include full body shots, post 7 photos that do.

The men who are attracted will still write, the men who aren’t won’t, but you will have largely eliminated the request for recent, full body photos, because you provided them up front.

There. Easy-peasy.

It’s the same advice I give in Finding the One Online. Let me know how it works for you.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Emily, the original

    Christine,

    Evan’s advice is good. Just add 2 or 3 recent body shots to the 2 or 3 other pics you already posted on the dating sites. If the pictures honestly reflect what you look like, then everybody’s on the same page and there are no surprises. Yes, you are being objectified, but each side is objectifying the other, no? Don’t you expect that the men have posted recent pictures that honestly reflect what they look like? It’s a reasonable expectation. If a man asks for more pics after you have posted the extra pics, I’d “next” him and move on because we’re getting into creeper territory.

    1. 1.1
      Adrian

      Hi Emily

      I agree 100%!

      When I actually tried online dating for a few weeks (I plan on trying it again soon) I took Evan’s advice and used professional pictures, up close facial pictures as well as full body.

      Every woman that contacted me wanted me to verify that I was really the guy in the picture in some way; either by requesting I send her a few selfies or by requesting that we skype that very moment that we were emailing.

      As you always say wanting someone who you think is attractive is not just a male thing, women want it too!

      Some women I sent selfies keep asking for more (admitted that kind of freaked me out), and some women whom I skyped wanted to meet that night (though I think that had more to do with momental then with wanting to make sure I look like the guy in the on the other end of the video chat).

      …   …   …

      Emily as someone who has done single’s parties, meetups, and speed dating (I think), as someone who hasn’t tried online dating but knows about it, what are the best parts of each in your opinion? What are the worst?

      For example with online dating you get all the person’s info, has kids, wants kids, makes x amount a year, etc. With single’s parties you get to see and smell the person, read their subtle facial cues when talking, etc. I actually don’t see in benefits in speed dating.

      Also I am curious, why have you never tried online dating?

      1. 1.1.1
        Adrian

        Sorry for all the typos (it’s late and I am suppose to be writing a report and putting together a powerpoint presentation but I am slacking off (^_^).

        I meant: I think it had more to do with momentum

        and

        I meant: I actually don’t see any benefits

      2. 1.1.2
        Emily, the original

        Adrian,

        As you always say wanting someone who you think is attractive is not just a male thing, women want it too!

        Stop the presses! That’s our front page story!  🙂

        You baffle me, Adrian. Do you have interest in dating? Sometimes I think you like the attention but don’t want to do anything with it. Why? The only woman who seems to have passed your standards is the woman you work with who has a twin sister she wants to set you up with. The dates you do post about here seem to bore you. Are you subconsciously dating women you aren’t interested in?

        The subconscious is a powerful thing.

        1. Adrian

          Hi Emily,

          Fair enough assessment of my posts.

          But before I answer yet another of your personal questions for me perhaps for once you could answer one (or ignore it like you normally do) (^_^).

          You say that you are in your 40’s and yet earlier this week you told KK that you have never had a long-term relationship (it shocked me that you answered her question since normally you are so guarded).

          All your post are about men who want you but you don’t want.

          All your post are about longing for “a”  guy who didn’t pay you any attention. You even said he is part of the reason you quit your job to get away from him.

          And all your post are about “less” than a handful of guys who in your 40 years actually excited you and or whom you actually wanted. By why didn’t any of those relationships last?

          So my question is why do you think you have never had a single long-term relationship in 40 years?

          Evan was around his late 30s or early 40s when he got married and he admitted to never having a relationship longer than 8 months prior to that so it’s not like I am judging you.

          You don’t have to get to specific  (I know how guarded you are) I am just curious.

          I ask because you seem like such an awesome person (and don’t just say I’m the only one thinking it, every commenter on this blog men and women agree about how great your personality is).

          You seem like a really great catch so it makes me wonder why you seem to never try to put yourself out there and actively seek a relationship… or maybe you do and you just never talk about it.

          …   …   …

          Another thing, you constantly tell me to do is just let go and have wild sex without commitment or a relationship and you always write about wanting a guy who you find sexy even if he is just a friend with benefits.

          So again why don’t you seek it? From all your post it seems like you just rely on the guys who approach you yet 100% of the guys who approach you don’t interest you. The few men who you actively approach don’t want you but again you always rely on guys in your circle-I am assuming that you like most women will not approach a guy you see at the mall.

          This is why I can not understand your refusal to use online dating, speeding, singles parties, etc…

          Did something happen to you, one of your friends, or a family member with online dating or a dating event that causes you not to want to try them? We all admit they are not perfect or even great but what they lack in quality it makes up for in quantity-especially online dating.

          You once told one of the commenters that you are really shy and an introvert (that shocked me), could this be the reason why you don’t risk putting yourself out there?

           

        2. Emily, the original

          Adrian,
          So my question is why do you think you have never had a single long-term relationship in 40 years?
          I had one that was on and off for about a year, though I don’t know how seriously I took it. I was completely infatuated with him … and then I got to know him. I have always made choices solely and exclusively based on chemistry. That was the only thing I asked myself. “Do I want to sleep with this guy?” And, to borrow the title of Mark Manson’s article, if the answer wasn’t “hell yes!” I wasn’t interested. Which is why I’m on this blog. Intellectually I know that’s not a good way to make a choice, but the emotional part of me hasn’t caught up with the intellectual side yet.
          All your post are about longing for “a”  guy who didn’t pay you any attention. You even said he is part of the reason you quit your job to get away from him.
          That guy was married and, yes, I did try to seduce him.
          So again why don’t you seek it? From all your post it seems like you just rely on the guys who approach you yet 100% of the guys who approach you don’t interest you. The few men who you actively approach don’t want you but again you always rely on guys in your circle-I am assuming that you like most women will not approach a guy you see at the mall.
          I do. I hooked up with the last guy I was attracted to who made it clear he was an option. It was a couple of months ago. I don’t have a problem approaching men or letting them know I’m interested.
          You once told one of the commenters that you are really shy and an introvert (that shocked me), could this be the reason why you don’t risk putting yourself out there?
          It’s just fear on my part. And I don’t trust myself to make a good choice.

        3. Adrian

          Hi Emily the original-Original (^_^).

          You are so sweet! Thank you for answering my very intrusive questions.

          To answer your question: The reason that i’m never happy with most of my dates is because I am trying so HARD to choose the woman who is kind, giving, and smart over the woman who is “just” sexy, beautiful, but selfish.

          I don’t date women with children, I don’t date smokers, I want someone either educated like myself or at least doing something financially successful with their lives so this limits my options. Then of course I want someone as attractive as I am. The older I get the more I see women with children and the less I see attractive single women (which is why I am about to start using online dating).

          As far as sex I struggle with that so much because unlike YAG and the other guys women always place me in the boyfriend/husband category not the he is sexy so I want to rip his clothes off category. And the few women who do approach me for something casual are usually married, too old, or are lying and sex is a way to get a relationship out of me.

          I don’t know Emily, you and I use to talk about this a lot. So you know that I wish that I didn’t have the morals I did, I wish I could just take advantage of my looks and use women sexually but I can’t. And I wish that I could just date the super hot women that treats others badly as long as I got to sleep with her and walk around showing her off to the jealous others but I can’t. People always say friends with benefits is easy to find but for me that is not true! 99% of those women want something more.

          So all I can do is just keep going on dates until I find someone who can elicit my mental, emotional, and physical desires.

          I think I told you this once but I was raised in a very religious environment as a child all the way up until I left for college and both of my parents pushed me to value sex in a relationship ONLY with someone I share mutual love with. Even though I am not religious it is still hard for me to escape the way I was raised/programed for the first half of my life.

          Sigh… It really messed me up! That’s why in college I was a virgin until I met the girl I fell in love with and proposed to even though I had plenty of options to sleep around. That is why I begrudgingly passed up so many chances to have so much sex with many beautiful (though married) women at my old job-even though I was very sexually frustrated because my ex was too sick and we hadn’t had sex in years. That is why now even as a single adult I always have so much internal conflict between what I can do with women and what I should do… Which I guess reflect in my post. It may also be an age thing, women in my age group are looking to settle down, but women in YAG’s age group are looking to just have fun so maybe that is why he gets more offers for sex without the conditions of having to enter into a relationship first.

          If you tell a woman that you want arex is so easy to get but the emotional aftermath isn’t. I just can’t bring myself to lie to or use a woman no matter how horny I am or no matter how much she is throwing herself at me when I know it will be just sex for me but for her it will be more.

           

        4. Emily, the original

          Adrian,

          If you tell a woman that you want sex is so easy to get but the emotional aftermath isn’t. I just can’t bring myself to lie to or use a woman no matter how horny I am or no matter how much she is throwing herself at me when I know it will be just sex for me but for her it will be more.

          You’re a person with a conscience who thinks about other people, and that’s a good thing. Although I do disagree with you that you would be using a woman just for sex. If you two are on the same page about what the encounter means, you’re aren’t using her. However, a man can confuse a woman if, in addition to sleeping with her, he is also attentive, calling a lot, taking her out, etc. That’s a selfish person in that he wants the benefits of having a girlfriend without the responsibility. That guy is using a woman. Not someone she just meets up with once a week for a hour and goes at it.

          However, that’s not how you’re wired. The reason I suggested you have some casual sex is that you write about it often and ask a LOT of questions about it. This is why women see you as a boyfriend/husband type. They can sense you aren’t going to mess with them. It’s not a bad thing. The only problem with waiting (and I was a late bloomer myself) is that sex gets built up in your mind and when you finally do it, it becomes such a heavy, momentous THING.

        5. Evan Marc Katz

          Seriously, Adrian. You really should hire a dating coach instead of asking (bright! experienced! well-meaning!) women on this blog for free advice.

          Thankfully, I know a few people who could help you.

        6. Kitty

          Adrian I don’t know what your financial situation is but there’s the always the GFE (google it).  Not being judgmental here, I wish more guys in your situation would do the truly honest thing and open up their wallets.

        7. Adrian

          Kitty I am trying to wrap my mind around your comment.

          Why do you believe that I have to sink so low as to pay for sex?

          Or that I am so pathetic that I need to pay a woman to “pretend” to be my girlfriend in bed?

          So let me get this straight, I say I don’t want to lie to a woman or lead her on just for sex and you think I am weak that I need to pay for sex?

        8. Kitty

          Kitty I am trying to wrap my mind around your comment.
          Why do you believe that I have to sink so low as to pay for sex?
          I don’t think that, I’m sure you can find a woman willing to have sex with you.  You seem very interested in casual sex with attractive women and if, per your statements, you haven’t been successful with that, paying for it is a logical solution.  You could surely find casual sex for free if you look for it persistently, though the woman may not be too pretty or personable.
          Or that I am so pathetic that I need to pay a woman to “pretend” to be my girlfriend in bed?

          I don’t think you’re pathetic.  You could surely find casual sex for free if you look for it persistently, though the woman may not be too pretty or personable. While most men are willing to compromise on looks to get casual sex far fewer find having sex with rude, bitchy or critical women to be a pleasant experience.  The GFE solves this problem
          So let me get this straight, I say I don’t want to lie to a woman or lead her on just for sex and you think I am weak that I need to pay for sex?
          Adrian I think not lying to women or leading them on shows your strength of character, not weakness.  However if you haven’t had casual sex and feel compelled to experience it as part of your growth as a man (most guys, for whatever, seem to feel this way) then the logical and ethical thing is to find a quality escort – by which I mean one hasn’t been trafficked, isn’t a drug addict and isn’t being controlled by a pimp) and let her make some money off of you.

          The reason that women get so heartbroken and demoralized when they realize that their “boyfriends” were just using them for sex and companionship and were never really in love with them is because they expected relationships and often even thought they were in relationships.  An escort will, unless she’s a VERY special case, won’t have any such illusions.  If you pay her and send her home her expectations from the encounter will be met and she will be content.

  2. 2
    JB

    As a guy what absolutely kills me is that the Match website (I don’t know about the app?) actually has a spot that tells you to ask a woman for more pics if they have less than 4 or 5 I think?) Asking for more pics is the kiss of death for most men unless they look like a model or in the top 5% etc….. in doing so they risk (which most can’t afford to do) never hearing from the woman again. In fact I’ve rarely asked for more pics in 20 years except to “get rid of someone” meaning I know they won’t send or post more and that will be the end of it.

    I think at this point everyone knows and assumes if you don’t have a head to toe pic you are hiding something you’re ashamed of. That being said I know there’s many large breasted women that aren’t obese by any stretch that just don’t want to put them up on a dating site so they crop them out meaning you only see above the boobs and up. I know that because when I see the exact same photo on their Facebook page there they are in all their glory.

  3. 3
    Gala

    Why would you have only 2-3 photos? When I was OLD-ing I had over 10 i think, a mix of professional photos (from events such as weddings, galas etc. where I was dressed up) to showing me running races, skiing, hiking etc. Show it off! This is what OLD is for.

  4. 4
    Tracey

    I’m not saying this is an advisable thing to do to get the results that will move things forward in a good way, but….

    If women asked men to keep sending them more pictures above and beyond the 4 or 5 they posted; the close ups, the body shots, maybe a bare chest, how would they take it? Will they understand? Maybe yes and maybe no and will need to be taken in context. Not fair to generalize.

    I saw a post somewhere to a similar question that it would be equivalent to “perhaps a woman who kept asking a guy about his job, his house and wanting info about his money and what he can give to her.” Physical attractiveness and financial “attractiveness” are two BIG triggers.

  5. 5
    Michelle

    I HAVE met men who are stalker-ish photo collectors. I have full body photos on my OLD profile and more than one men have requested more. Usually because they “want to see what I’m wearing.” Totally disgusting and unacceptable.

    So unless this writer doesn’t have clear full body photos on her profile, I would say she needs to block these creeps and not send them any photos.

    1. 5.1
      lapistolle

      I’ve had the same experience as Michelle. Is this the vast majority of men? No. But how many stalkers does a woman need to deal with before deciding it’s not worth it to mess with requests for photos? Just one.

      In my experience, men who keep asking for more photos are either after something sexual, trying to fulfill some kind of sexual fetish (i.e. using your photos to get themselves off) or narcissists. Granted my sample size is small, it’s that of one person. But when you have a good mix of photos AND you’ve verified your profile on Bumble to show that you look like and are the person that you say you are–I think that’s more than enough to have a coffee with someone.

      1. 5.1.1
        Buck25

        @ lapistolle,

        Sorry, not buying it. I put two full length recent shots on my profile (NOT shirtless bathroom selfies, either); I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect women to post  ONE recent, clear full length photo(not swimsuit shots, either, appropriate business/business casual attire will suffice). Like most men, I’ve been lied to enough, that I don’t believe your self-described body type, unless verified by photo evidence. My photos have time and date stamps on them; do yours?

        Bottom line: no full length picture, no response. That’s not “stalker-ish”; that’s a response to the prevalence of willful disinformation online, a/k/a “LYING”. Don’t blame men, blame your fellow women who lie to get a date online (as in listing their body type as “athletic and toned” when they actually weigh 250 pounds or more). Yes, I’m aware that both genders lie online. However, it strikes me, that a woman who claims to want “a serious long term relationship”, yet chooses to begin it by lying about her age, build, etc., is  either more than slightly hypocritical, or stupid enough to build on the shakiest of foundations. The guys who lie are usually just clueless dweebs hoping to get laid because their chances in real life are next to zero.

        @ sandra, below

        I like that idea of IRL singles parties as you describe; in fact, I like it so much, that I’ll see your sans makeup, in return, provide the first page of my latest 1040 Long Form, AND raise you a certified copy of each other’s birth certificates, PLUS official clocked copies of each other’s divorce decrees, PLUS a valid, government issued photo ID, PLUS a clean Criminal Background Check. Wonder how many women would care to ante up?

         

        1. lapistolle

          Buck,

          The men I’m talking about keep asking for more pictures even though I DO have two full length recent pictures on my profile. My experience has been that it’s just never enough for these guys and that they have something else weird going on.

          Men, incidentally, pull all the same tricks women do in terms of deceiving photos–it’s not just a female thing.

        2. Buck25

          The men I’m talking about keep asking for more pictures even though I DO have two full length recent pictures on my profile.

          @lapistolle,

          If that’s the case, I’d say that’s clearly across the line, and I can’t think of a legitimate reason for it.

          On your other point, yes, I’m aware that guys post deceptive photos too; I’ve heard and read stories from women about that, and I have no reason to believe those stories aren’t true. Usually involves an older and/or out-of-shape guy using ten or twenty year old photos. I haven’t heard many comments about younger men (as in under 35) doing that. What I have heard was a lot of women (usually considerably overweight) justifying the old or deceptive photos with, “But guys lie too, and they’re so visual, I wouldn’t have a chance if I posted what I really look like.” Needless to say that’s extremely obvious at the first meeting and men usually don’t take it well, so it seems to me that attempting to lose the excess weight would make a lot more long term sense. Then again, we all know that some women(and one presumes a smaller subset of men) are just looking for online attention and validation, not an actual date, so maybe it makes some sense in that context. You know, if someone could invent an fail-safe, online deception detection algorithm, they could make a fortune…

        3. lapistolle

          Buck, here’s what I’ve encountered in terms of photos men use that are misleading.

          Photos that are 10 years old.

          Photos that are taken with them next to very petite female friends to make them look tall.

          “Myspace angles” to disguise morbid obesity.

          Cropped photos to disguise a physical disability.

          Hats and/or bandanas to disguise baldness.

          Photoshop to remove signs of aging and wrinkles.

      2. 5.1.2
        Buck25

        @ lapistolle,

        Your last is duly noted. I haven’t seen it it directly (being a straight male, I obviously don’t date men), but I’ve heard enough from women to know that that BOTH genders are equal opportunity offenders in playing the “deceptive photo” game (with slight modification of tactics, depending on what is needed to disguise whatever the target audience might see as “deficiencies in looks/attractiveness”

        Again, I wish all of us would simply play the online dating game (that’s what it is, so let’s be honest in calling it that) with some semblance of honesty and personal integrity, but sadly, that is a forlorn hope, and the liars predominate on both sides of the gender aisle. Seems everyone applies a “discount factor” for that in self-defense-I’ve had more than one woman tell me, on first meeting, “You’re taller than I thought you’d be” (spoken with apparent surprise that I’m actually exactly the 5’9″ I put in my profile), followed by the explanation that “All the guys online say they’re 3 or 4 inches taller than they really are, so I assumed you were actually 5’6″ or so”. I suppose that’s what we’ve come to. Then again, most women over 50 are 5 to 10 years older than their online profile states (which I guess explains the 55 year old women that look at least 65-it’s because they actually are 65. They usually fess up on meeting, and seem shocked when I ask why they didn’t tell the truth to begin with. I guess I could understand this better if they were looking for a one night hook-up (I still wouldn’t necessarily oblige, but I’d understand), but LYING (in whatever form) seems a lousy way to begin the potential “committed relationship” said women claim to want so badly. Of course, every woman “KNOWS” that ALL men online are ALWAYS  guilty of lying about anything and everything, “because they’re ALL just wanting hook up sex anyway, dontcha know, so lying back at ’em is entirely appropriate! Yeah, that’ll show ’em!”.

        So round and round we go, on the liars’ carousel of online dating, where I can’t trust you, and you can’t trust me. Isn’t it delightful? I guess it’ll stay that way, til someone invents a program that will let a home computer administer an infallible polygraph test…  In some lines from Kris Kristofferson,

        “All the cards are on the table, you done laid your money down;                Don’t complain about your chances. boy, cause it’s the only game in town.       And the the meaning doesn’t matter, or the way you play the game;           who’s the winner, or the loser; who’s to bless, and who’s to blame?”

        What a helluva way to find “love”, huh?

  6. 7
    Kelley

    I so agree. As a plus size woman, if I have enough body shots, I get fewer responses. I also get less questions about the way I look. Win-win in my opinion. I also include a makeup less shot and one that isn’t my favorite. But all of my pictures look like me.

  7. 8
    cindy

    this is gr8…

  8. 9
    sandra

    Maybe the next trend should be IRL singles parties where women are not allowed to wear makeup and men must bring their most recent tax returns.

  9. 10
    Stacy

    Evan is wrong about one thing…

    Most men online (that I exchanged numbers with when I was online) ARE ‘photo collecting stalkers’.  Yup. I have also heard this complaint one too many times.

    To the OP, here is what I would do, after I send a couple of  more, if that still isn’t enough then I would say in a playful way, ‘if we keep at it, you will see me in person soon enough.’  He’d be pretty dense to not get the message. It is SUPER annoying to constantly be asked for a picture. I have been there. And although Evan is right that this is probably how it may work fairly often, there comes a point when it is just unreasonable and the dude needs to piss off.

    If I tell you the pictures are recent, and I send you a couple more full body shots and you’re still not satisfied, then dude, you’re annoying and I will let you know in a ‘nice and playful’ way.

  10. 11
    Yet Another Guy

    I firmly believe that online dating was a more effective way to meet someone before photos entered the scene.  I do not recall viewing a single profile that contained a photo when I met my ex-wife on Match in 1997.  Every date was truly a blind date, so a guy was less likely to return to the candy store if he met a woman he found to be attractive.  Instead, he would spend time getting to know her as if he had met her in real life.  Photos morphed online dating into the hyper-competitive mess that it is today.

    1. 11.1
      JB

      Yep YAG since I know we’re the same age now I also remember the early days before jpegs were in profiles and you had to scan a regular photo and email it as an attachment to an AOL email address etc….hoping the recipient had the right browser or software to open it AND view it…..lol. Most people didn’t have the knowledge or equipment to dial it in. Webpersonals was one of the first where you just put up an ad and an email address to email to. These people don’t know how good(or bad) they have it now!

  11. 12
    Tron Swanson

    I’m not a stalker, but I’m definitely a photo collector.

    It’s funny: I’ve been meeting women online for almost twenty years, and, roughly half the time that I ask for a picture, they send me a nude. I’m just asking for a regular pic, but half send me nudes, and a quarter send me extremely sexy pics–i.e., a bikini or yoga pants or something. It’s the same with asking them to get on cam. “Oh, I just wanted to see you, I had no idea you were sitting around mostly naked…”

    I haven’t had a ton of luck, in my life, but I’ve had very good luck when it comes to finding fun women.

    1. 12.1
      Yet Another Guy

      @Tron Swanson

      I have received my fair share of nudes from women on dating sites, some of which have been sexually explicit, but none were solicited.   I was amazed the first time I received an unsolicited nude.  Now, it does not faze me because I know I am not the first recipient.

      1. 12.1.1
        Emily, the original

        YAG,

        Now, it does not faze me because I know I am not the first recipient.

        Take points off if she offered the nude pic to another man sooner in the process.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily

          Take points off if she offered the nude pic to another man sooner in the process.

          I usually just say “no,” and then share the photos with my married friends who are astonished that women actually text unsolicited nude photos today.

        2. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          I usually just say “no,” and then share the photos with my married friends who are astonished that women actually text unsolicited nude photos today.

          It’s probably not really her pic so you’re passing on pics of a bikini model.

        3. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the orignal

          Trust me, these nudes are not remotely close to being supermodel photos.  They are photos of middle-age women with typical middle-age bodies that usually include at least one photo with a face in the shot.  I am often astonished that these women share nude photos so easily given how body image conscious most women appear to be; however, then again, a few women have shared male junk photos that they have received with me.  Let’s just say that a lot of these men should not be taking so much pride in their junk. 🙂

        4. Tron Swanson

          Emily,

          Yeah, I would take points off for that…but they usually send them very quickly, so it’s all good.

          Also, I prefer webcam chats to pics, which is how I confirm that the pics are real, recent, and not misleading.

        5. Emily, the original

          YAG,

           I am often astonished that these women share nude photos so easily given how body image conscious most women appear to be.

          If she’s middle-aged, she really shouldn’t even be appearing in public.

        6. Tron Swanson

          Emily,

          Whoa, whoa, let’s not go too far with this. Middle-aged women shouldn’t be barred from appearing in public. I use what I call the bikini test: if they look good in a bikini, they can wear normal clothes and run around all they want. If they don’t, they can still go in public, but they should wear a hooded robe, sort of like the Grim Reaper. That way, I don’t have to see too much of them. At any rate, it’s elderly women that shouldn’t be allowed in public.

          (You joke, and I joke right back! But maybe future generations of men will be more serious about this than I am…)

        7. Emily, the original

          Tron,

          I think any woman who’s not a 9 or 10 should not be appearing in public, Surely, you and YAG can convene a committee to designate these rankings and determine who has outdoor mobility privileges. Older men, by contrast, just keep getting better. Men really don’t peak until about age 90. It’s why younger women are waiting in line to hook up with them.

        8. Emily, the original

          Really enjoying Emily’s answers.

          Good. I was worried I was going too far.

          I’m going to the grocery store now. It’s dark here, so I won’t offend anybody with my hideousness.

        9. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          If she’s middle-aged, she really shouldn’t even be appearing in public.

          I would not go that far, but I am astonished that these women are sending unsolicited nude photos.  If I want a nude photo, I will ask for it.  I prefer to unwrap my own presents. 🙂

        10. Emily, the original

          YAG, 

          I prefer to unwrap my own presents.

          Why would you want to open something that ancient?

        11. Tron Swanson

          Emily,

          That’s a great idea! I, and most of the other men I know, have already created exhaustively-detailed physical rankings for the women in our lives, so we already have that part of it all set up. In the event that I ever end up conquering the world, I’ll make sure to implement this.

          I do agree that men age better than women, at least in terms of cultural values and expectations. When you’re mainly valued for your money and ambition, as opposed to your body, you hold up better over time, assuming that you’re successful. That said, I’ve always thought that many “older” (middle-aged) women remain extremely hot. My desired age range has always been the same, and when I can no longer get women in that range, I’ll give up on you lot entirely. I’ve told this to women before, and they’ve assumed that I’ll “give in” and get involved with women over, say, 45. But keep in mind, I’m the guy that’s refused to date or seriously pursue women for his entire life. I’m one of those insufferable “It’s the principle of the thing!” people. I refuse to be seen in public with a woman who’s above a certain age or weight, just as most women refuse to be seen in public with a man that’s below a certain height or income.

          Pro tip: remove all mirrors from your home, Emily, so you won’t accidentally turn yourself to stone.

        12. Emily, the original

          Tron,

          Pro tip: remove all mirrors from your home, Emily, so you won’t accidentally turn yourself to stone.

          I don’t need to worry about that. I look insanely young. I have a portrait in the attic.

        13. Buck25

          Emily,

          Still LMAO at your comments below! Very funny! Seriously though, do you think we could have some kind of moratorium on women (especially those with excess avoirdupois) wearing skin-tight yoga pants in public (most especially when, ah, “going commando”)? Not to put too fine a point on it, but “camel toe” on an overweight woman isn’t exactly sexy, and even on very fit women,  is something I could do without seeing in public. Until I really get to know a woman, I only want to imagine what she looks like without her clothes on. I’m kinda like YAG, I like unwrapping my own presents…I don’t get all that many these days, so I really prefer to unwrap the few I do get personally, rather than seeing the contents revealed to all and sundry.

        14. Emily, the original

          Buck25,

          Seriously though, do you think we could have some kind of moratorium on women (especially those with excess avoirdupois) wearing skin-tight yoga pants in public (most especially when, ah, “going commando”)? Not to put too fine a point on it, but “camel toe” on an overweight woman isn’t exactly sexy, and even on very fit women,  is something I could do without seeing in public.

          Didn’t we go back and forth about this yoga pants issue a few months ago?

          Until I really get to know a woman, I only want to imagine what she looks like without her clothes on. I’m kinda like YAG, I like unwrapping my own presents…

          I used to work with a guy who said he didn’t like his women to wear lingerie. He said he didn’t want to read the menu. He just wanted to sit down and eat  !

        15. Buck25

          I used to work with a guy who said her didn’t like his women to wear lingerie. He said he didn’t want to read the menu. He just wanted to sit down and eat!

          Emily,

          Chacun a son gout;  however, the occasional quickie aside, when it comes to lovemaking, haste makes waste. I’d rather linger over it, like enjoying a fine wine or an excellent scotch, and slowly and patiently unwrapping an attractively presented package (especially with an equally delightful “menu” beneath) is a delightful addition to the “meal”,  from my personal POV! Besides, it gives me even more opportunity to heighten a woman’s anticipation (as well as my own) by removing the packaging in a very slow, deliberate, teasing manner, accompanied, of course, by appropriate kisses and caresses. I mean, if she went to that much trouble to get all glamorous and sexy, it seems a pity to waste all that potential by trying to see how fast I can get that cocktail dress on the bedroom floor, when instead, I can linger over the process, tactilely and visually, so as to make her feel even sexier, and more fully appreciated for her efforts.  Most women I’ve known seemed to like that. I’m just sayin’.

          Didn’t we go back and forth about this yoga pants issue a few months ago?

          Well, yes…yes, we did. I’m not going to win that one, am I?

          At any rate, you’re in rare form of late; you’ve always been good at a snappy comeback, but not quite like the rapid fire zingers in this thread. I hope that means life is happy for you at the moment!

        16. Buck25

          I look insanely young. I have a portrait in the attic.

          How did I miss that one, Emily? Your very own version of the Picture of Dorian Gray?? Hmmm, I could have used one of those myself, had I thought of it, back in the day. Oh well, then again, I don’t know what I might have been tempted to do with the “benefits” as I got older; I might be worse than I already am, and I’m hardly angelic as it is… You of course, would never do anything quite so wicked…or would you? 🙂

        17. Emily, the original

          Buck25,
           when it comes to lovemaking, haste makes waste. I’d rather linger over it, like enjoying a fine wine 
          I’m the opposite. To quote the late, great Prince in his song “Scandalous” … why don’t we skip all the foreplay and just get down here on the floor.    🙂
          Well, yes…yes, we did. I’m not going to win that one, am I?
          I don’t remember. I agreed with you that, in all honesty, yoga pants are horrible on most of the population and probably shouldn’t be worn outside of the yoga studio (although I support that women should wear what they want to). But I think there was a man who wrote in to a local paper who expressed your sentiments and had female protesters in front of his house.
          At any rate, you’re in rare form of late; you’ve always been good at a snappy comeback, but not quite like the rapid fire zingers in this thread. I hope that means life is happy for you at the moment!
          Well, thank you. I am feeling pretty good lately. I hope you are doing well, too.

        18. Emily, the original

          Buck25,

          How did I miss that one, Emily? Your very own version of the Picture of Dorian Gray??

          Bless your heart for getting that reference.

          You of course, would never do anything quite so wicked…or would you?

          To quote Joan Crawford: If you want the girl next door, GO next door!   😉

        19. Buck25

          …why don’t we skip all the foreplay and just get down here on the floor

          Emily,

          Now there’s something unusual, a woman who wants to just skip all the preliminaries! It doesn’t matter, what with the distance and the age difference, but you and I would never make it as lovers, lol!  I’ve spent way too much time with women who had been so deprived of that in previous relationships, that they can never have too much of it, and now, I’m afraid I’ve gotten rather set in my ways from the experience.:)

        20. Kitty

          I look insanely young. I have a portrait in the attic.

          LOL, Emily I fear the literary allusion is lost on Tron as he doesn’t strike me as a reader of fiction.  On the other hand I’m fairly certain he writes a lot of fiction here regarding his sex life.

        21. Emily, the original

          Buck25,

           It doesn’t matter, what with the distance and the age difference, but you and I would never make it as lovers, lol!  

          I agree.  🙂   If you get online and type in “Core Erotic Blueprint Evaluation,” you can take a 17-question quiz and it will tell you what your “type” is. There are five. I think the best sex I’ve had (didn’t know it at the time, though) was with men who I was really attracted to and who were the same type as I am. You don’t need to talk about what you like because the whole thing clicks.

          The types:

          1.) Energetic — Live in the realm of emotion. The more pleasure their partner feels, the more aroused they become.

          2.) Sensual — Want to slow down and be romantic

          3.) Kinky — Turned on by “out of the box” encounters

          4.) Sexual – Easily turned on by visual touch and stimulus, variety, techniques.

          5.) Shape shifter – Can play in all realms

        22. Emily, the original

          Kitty,
          LOL, Emily I fear the literary allusion is lost on Tron as he doesn’t strike me as a reader of fiction.  On the other hand I’m fairly certain he writes a lot of fiction here regarding his sex life.
          Snap! Miss Kitty is a bit snarky today!  🙂

  12. 13
    Yet Another Guy

    What I want to know is why women who are usually so vocal about men respecting their desired age ranges seem to feel that they are entitled to ignore a man’s desired age range, especially if he is their junior?  Most men do not want to date a woman who is their senior, even if it is only one year.   If a woman does not desire to date a man my age, I move on to the next profile.  I have lost count of the number of women who are just a year or two my junior whose upper age bound is their age or a few years younger and their lower bound is fifteen to twenty years their junior.  These women are entitled to their age ranges.  There are plenty of fish in the sea.

     

    1. 13.1
      Marika

      YAG 

      I think a lot of your questions could be answered if you could muster up some empathy and pare back on all your rules around how everything ‘should’ be.

      1. 13.1.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @Marika

        This question has nothing to do with my “rules.”   It has everything to do with a double standard.  If a woman wants men to respect her desired age range, then she needs to respect the age ranges posted by men.  If a man was seriously willing to entertain dating a women her age, he would have included it in his age range. The women who tweak me the most are women my senior that have their upper age bound set to their own age or less and a lower age bound that is set to fifteen to twenty years their junior who feel the need to take me to task for not responding.  They admonish me for age discrimination when they are doing the same thing with men their senior and often men their same age.

        1. Marika

          Some men do the exact same thing, YAG. I think you just need to accept that not everyone plays by your/the/whatever rules. Just block them and move on.

          And maybe recognize that you may have some double standards or not always act completely consistently and fairly yourself.

          Women are human. Just like you.

        2. Kitty

          YAG,

          I agree with you that it’s a waste of time to write to someone, male or female, if you’re outside of that individual’s stated age range.  My guess is that they’re genuinely clueless about the dynamics you describe, or that they find themselves outside of most people’s stated age ranges and decide they have little to lose by trying and hoping they will be an exception.

        3. Buck25

          YAG,

          I’ve seen the dynamic; usually occurs with women roughly 50 and up. It is fairly common in that age group ; maybe for the reasons you suggest, maybe something else; I don’t suppose it matters, really; it’s just one more preference. As Marika pointed out, men do the same thing, partly for the reasons you outlined,  partly because some of them simply don’t find most women of the age they screen out even remotely attractive, and reason that one whose pictures seem to indicate otherwise is usually posting old/altered photos (and sadly, that is often the case). Again, it’s a preference, and I don’t suppose there’s much changing it on either side of the gender divide. I think the same advice applies to both genders-if you’re bothered by someone outside your stated desired age range contacting you, don’t bother debating the matter, just ignore them,  forget it,  and move on. I’ve had 85 year-old women contact me. I used to be bothered(and a little insulted) by that; now I just ignore them and forget it. They have a right to take their shot; I have an equal right to ignore them. Same obviously applies to women contacted by men outside their age preference-the men have a right to try,  the women have an equal right to ignore them. Seems simple to me.

          @ Marika, I do get YAG’s reference to a “double standard”, (a/k/a “do as I say, not as I do”).  It appears to me that is all YAG was trying to say, i.e. don’t condemn someone of the other gender for doing the same thing you do. Somehow, I don’t think either side yelling back “Yes, but (insert opposite gender) do that too!” is going to change anyone’s age preferences. I doubt any of us is completely, objectively fair in the way we handle that or other preferences in our dating life. Is that the altruistic way to do it? Nope. Is it human? Yep, totally; at least in the beginning, none of us is dating to help someone else get what THEY want, we’re dating to try to get what WE want-AND THAT’S OK.

        4. Yet Another Guy

          @Buck25

          I do ignore women who ignore my age range.  The problem occurs when they become belligerent because they know I am ignoring their attempts to get my attention.  The worst offenders are women who are between the ages of 59 and 61.  They refuse to accept that they have aged out of the fifty-something male pool.  I have had to block quite a few of these women.

        5. S.

          I don’t understand.  How is a woman who is 59 out of the 50 male range? She’s still technically in her 50s  Couldn’t she date another 59-year-old man?

          I don’t mind people having their preferences but I really don’t understand the rationale.

          Doesn’t 59 = 59?

          LOL. I shouldn’t try to use math!  But I really am trying to understand.

        6. Yet Another Guy

          @S

          By the fifty-something male pool, I am talking about the entire fifty-something male pool.  A large proper subset of these women want to date men in their mid-forties to mid-fifties.  That is a pipe dream because most men in this age range are dating younger women with a quite a few dating significantly younger women.  While women up to my age are included in my age range, I rarely date a woman older than fifty-one.  My ex-wife is a forty-something. I married her in my thirties. I was with her for the better part of two decades.  That is the age woman that I am used to having in my life.

          As far as to holding a grudge, I do not date younger women because I hold a grudge.  I date younger women because I have always dated younger women. While that dating situation was originally thrust upon me when I was a much younger man by women my age desiring older men, it is now my preference because, like my ex-wife, I am used to being with a woman who is a Gen-Xer, not a Baby Boomer.  I have been dating Gen-Xers since I was twenty-six.  Just like I have no desire to date a Baby Boomer, I also have no desire to date a Millennia.  It is a cultural preference.  Plus, I have very little in common with women my chronological age and older.  We married and started our families at very different ages.  They have children who have been launched for years.  My children are seniors in high school.

        7. S.

          @YAG

          Thanks for your reply. I see two things from your comments.   It makes sense to me that you spent twenty years with a woman with that age difference, so sure.  You’re used to it.

          “I’m used to it and like it” is how I’ll sum that your experience up in my mind. I had more to say, but my comments get lengthy. I will say most people I know prefer folks in their own generation but to each their own!

          I try to be flexible myself. I thought older men would be more responsible and self-aware.  Nope.  Now I know I just have to meet men one-by-one and see.  I’d happily date a younger man if he really wanted to settle down but most I meet don’t.

          The second thing is about the world at large, outside of your and my individual experiences, is  I don’t know if men care about where a woman is in her life when she’s the younger one.  Has she met her career goals?  Does she have parts of her life that are set? Are goals and values compatible? Is she okay that their time healthy together maybe shorter?  A lot of older men want to date me now but they don’t want to get married! They are been there, done that.  They think because I’m in my mid-forties and without kids, they can have some casual relationship.  Nope!  Ah well. I keep looking cause there are good men out there of any age.  If I don’t find my guy until I’m seventy, I still want to get married.  If I’m not married by then, I surely would have waited long enough to be!

          🙂

          What if those 50-year-old women also have had a spouses several years younger and prefer it too? If you can have that preference, so can they if the younger (in this example mid-40s is young) men go for it.  I think they’ll be some younger men who will. Maybe not a lot, but hey, they only need to find one. 🙂

        8. Yet Another Guy

          @S.

          I completely understand your point of view.  Your are right that a lot of men your senior who have been married and raised a family are not excited to repeat the process.  Raising a family is a lot of work that requires years of sacrifice.  Holding a marriage together while raising children requires even more sacrifice.  Having been through that phase, I am ready to place me first.  I know that I am not in a hurry to get into a committed relationship as well.  However, then again, I generally do not date women who have never been married and do not have children.

          As far as to older women having been married to a younger man, most of the women I have encountered of this type are basically the female equivalent of older out of shape men who are attempting to trade a peer ex-wife for a younger model.  They are under the delusion that they can keep up with a younger person who is physically fit.

        9. S.

          YAG,

          I completely understand where you’re coming from.  I’m going to enjoy that for a moment. I understand! Thanks for taking the time here to share your experiences. 🙂

          There was one thing, not to do with your comments, I would like to share.  As a woman in my mid-forties. I’m okay never having kids.  But I do want commitment.

          Not here on this blog, but when I have met men in their late 50s or 60s, to be honest, none of them were that interested in me. I was too young, strangely enough.  Too old for someone my age, too young for someone 15 years older.  Weird, but I accept it.

          What I felt like was these older men really wanted what felt to me like a sidepiece to their retirement.  They didn’t want a wife or LTR, but just some sex and companionship.  Nothing wrong with that, just not what I or my friends my age want. One guy was event telling me about moving to Florida. He wasn’t interested in me, but I realize, no, I’m not ready for Florida yet.  Not yet!

          I want those fifteen years. I want to build something with someone, not just be the cherry on top of their achievements. It was so weird.  I just didn’t feel as valued by them as I do by men who are younger.  I was surprised at the difference.  And I like older men!  I also felt that there was some broken-heartedness there that I couldn’t possibly fix. Either from previous relationships or from never having found the right person.

          I want a man who still has hope and still wants to build.  If that means we are 70 when we meet, so be it. It still has to be a guy who wants that.  I read a story the other day about two 90-year-olds who got married in the nursing home.  They were like, “What would we waiting for?” 🙂

          Hee, I wonder if Evan would have advised them to wait two years. 🙂

          ( I couldn’t find the couple I mentioned for but I did found this article: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/11/fashion/weddings/senior-citizen-older-couple-wedding.html.  Look at her with her garter! And he’s still chopping wood at 94.  I love stories like this.)

        10. Yet Another Guy

          @S.

          I believe that what you mentioned about a lot of fifty-something men wanting sidepiece is true, but I believe that it also holds true for a lot of forty-something men.  The only difference is that fifty-something men are closer to retirement.  They have survived the financial disruption that occurs when couples divorce and are in capital conservation mode.

          To be completely honest, I am frequently amazed by the number of forty and fifty-something women I encounter on dating sites who have never been married.  I rarely encountered a peer-age woman who had not married by the time I reached age thirty.  I am sorry to say that many of these women have in fact missed their opportunity to live the kind of life that you describe.  Unmarried men in their peer group who eventually decide to marry usually desire a woman of normal childbearing age, and a lot of divorced men are like me in that they did whatever it took to hold loveless marriages together long enough for their children to at least reach high school age.   For many of us, we are talking about at a decade or more of feeling trapped.  That experience changes a man forever.  When coupled with the financial hit that occurs when couples divorce, few men who lived through that kind of experience are likely to desire to remarry if they can make it through lonely period that follows separation/divorce and re-establish themselves as single men with their own lives.

          In my humble opinion, the number one dream killer for women who desire commitment are women who engage in casual sex.   I agree with Jeremy on this part of relationship dynamics.  As Jeremy mentioned, women have made sex cheap enough that divorced men never have to worry about re-marrying in order to obtain a steady source of sex.  I know that if all I want is sex, I will not even have to enter another committed relationship in my lifetime.  Casual sex is available today without a man having to put forth any effort whatsoever.  One knows that things have gone astray when a man says, “no.”

        11. S.

          I am sorry to say that many of these women have in fact missed their opportunity to live the kind of life that you describe.

          Well, YAG, it’s not over until it’s over as my link shows. 🙂  Both of those folks had been married before. One for 45 years and one for 61 years.  I would think they’d be done with marriage, but no!  I guess it matters if it ends in widowhood and if it was a good marriage.

          So not everyone is taken to the cleaners and is bitter.  Some people have happy marriages that end with a partner dying or that ends but not horribly.  They are open to try marriage again.

          Evan says not to make new men pay for what men in the past did.  I don’t like the idea that men who chose to stay in loveless marriages, now that experience really affects who they date in future.  It’s not the new woman’s fault what happened in his marriage.  That’s one reason I didn’t get married young.  I knew I wasn’t ready and it wouldn’t have worked out.  I’m glad I’m not bitter or damaged in that way.

          I agree with you, in part, about casual sex.  I think people should do what they feel they have to. But the women I know,  personally, 20s – 70s, don’t really engage in casual sex.  They are serial monogamists.  Many live with their partners for years at a time, get dogs together, etc.  So I don’t know who all those casual sex women are!  I’m sure they are out there, but I don’t know them.  Most women I know want a relationship and end up in one.  It isn’t always the best relationship, but it’s a relationship.

        12. Adrian

          Hi S,

          You said, “But the women I know,  personally, 20s – 70s, don’t really engage in casual sex.  They are serial monogamists.  So I don’t know who all those casual sex women are!  I’m sure they are out there, but I don’t know them.  Most women I know want a relationship and end up in one.

          Whew! I’m glad you said this.

          I was beginning to think it was just me who never met these openly “ok” with casual sex women.

          Every woman I meet always wants a relationship so after reading the stories on here I was beginning to think I was coming off wrong to women. I mean every guy wants to be thought of as the hot sexy guy who she will throw away her rules and have sex with because he just brings it out of her not the boring guy who courts her and she makes wait months before they have sex.

          So when all the other guys on this blog keep talking about it and how easily they get women to throw their open legs at them I started to feel like my sexual value was low… or that I unfortunately don’t give off sexy hot guy vibes but husband boyfriend vibes.

          To understand that let me explain, all us guys know of stories where women have 2 guys the sexy guy she desires but he doesn’t want to commit to her and the guy who she settled for but he was willing to give her the marriage, kids, and a stable life.

          I started to feel like the second guy, so it’s good to see that I am not the only one to meet those type of women.

        13. Yet Another Guy

          @S.

          So not everyone is taken to the cleaners and is bitter.  Some people have happy marriages that end with a partner dying or that ends but not horribly.  They are open to try marriage again.

          While I agree with you on widows and widowers,  there is no such thing as a damage-free divorce.  It is not the ending that causes the damage.  It is everything that leads up to the dissolution of a marriage that causes the damage. My divorce was about as drama free as a divorce can possibly be, but it let a wake of emotional damage a mile wide.

          I agree with you, in part, about casual sex.  I think people should do what they feel they have to. But the women I know,  personally, 20s – 70s, don’t really engage in casual sex.  They are serial monogamists.  Many live with their partners for years at a time, get dogs together, etc.  So I don’t know who all those casual sex women are!  I’m sure they are out there, but I don’t know them.  Most women I know want a relationship and end up in one.  It isn’t always the best relationship, but it’s a relationship.

          I can assure you that it occurs more frequently than you assume.  I was completely blown away when a woman offered sex on the first date after re-entering the dating pool.  It did not take many dates after that one to realize that the first date was not a fluke.  I never have to commit to obtain sex today.  If want to have sex with a woman, it usually happens on the second date.   Women in their forties and fifties want sex was much as men, and they are not shy about asking for it.

           

        14. S.

          Adrian, I don’t know who those women are! And I have known so many women,  I have an idea what might be happening and will explain that in a a moment.

          Most women I have known want to settle down, period.  And they do.  The 20-somethings at work? Live with their boyfriends.  Go on vacations with his family.  Sew stuffed animals for his family’s small children.  Not many of my friends did that in our 20s.  People get so serious.

          Now, many women are having sex early.  What’s happening there is many are hoping for a relationship.   (The women I know have not read this blog.) Another thing that may explain what YAG was saying is sometimes, early sex does lead to a relationship! That’s what is so confusing as a woman.  You never know if it will or not. So you try it each way to see.  So while most of the women I know are in or want to be in relationships, I have no idea when they first had sex with their partners.  One of my good friends has sex early, but she marries these people! Or ends up in a five-year-relationship.  This is what people I know do.

          It may seem strange but a woman a man takes home on a first date and hooks up with might want a relationship with him.  Might be lonely, horny.  Might become unreasonably attached to him, even though she knows she doesn’t love him.  This isn’t . . . casual.  It can take a while to break a tie that a man thinks is nothing.  It’s not nothing, trust me.  We just try really hard let men think that it’s casual and we are so over it.  Pride thing, really.

          As for you, Adrian. Many women want husbands! It’s just hard to figure out if a man wants that too and well, you might want to rip his clothes off but it’s hard to know if that’s the best way to a LTR, you know? And yes, we think about both at the same time.  Yep.

        15. Yet Another Guy

          @S.

          Another thing that may explain what YAG was saying is sometimes, early sex does lead to a relationship!

          There is another possibility that you are overlooking.  They have been married (often more than one time), have raised children, and are now just looking for sex and a man’s company periodically.  They no longer need a man for anything other than companionship and sex, as they receive unconditional love from their children and emotional support from their girlfriends.   Trust me, I have encountered a lot of women who fall under this category.  You probably never hear of these women because women are sensitive about being labeled sluts.  However, I have texts, messages, and photos to prove that women do in fact seek sex for sex.

          Here is a statistic. Did you know that 2/3rds of postmenopausal women have little to no interest in sex?  Yet, I have not met one postmenopasaul woman on a dating site who does not have a healthy libido.  Maybe it is just the women who are attracted to me, but that behavior tells me that the postmenopausal women who are on dating sites are the sexually active postmenopausal women, a good percentage of whom are on hormone replacement therapy.   The women who have no interest in sex clearly do not join dating sites.

        16. S.

          I’m not overlooking. I’ve read about that here.  But most of the women I know haven’t fallen into that category. Or maybe they have but they’ve been in relationships so long, I didn’t know them then.  My friends are between 40 and 50. No one is post-menopausal yet.  I think libidos are fairly healthy.  They are either currently married with kids (I’m not in close contact with these folks) or they are in LTRs with no kids.  Since I have no kids, I tend to have friends with no kids.

          So I don’t know specifically about post-menopausal women.  All I was suggesting was that even women who start off or say they want sex for sex, that might change and they may want more.   But hey, they might not.  You could very well be meeting women very different than the women I know, most of whom are not on dating sites at all.  But that’s because most of them are in LTRs/marriages so they don’t need the sites at this time.

          It is entirely possible that you and I are meeting different categories of women and at different ages.  It’s possible, people I know don’t tell me the minute details of their sex lives, and it’s possible women you meet don’t tell you the minute details of their emotional needs.  Context is everything.  I can only say when I talk with women, sure they talk about wanting sex, but all want that in the context of a relationship.  Even a random one night stand with someone doesn’t change what they really want.

          I’ll have to check in again when we’re all in our late 50s. 🙂 But I don’t think Evan’s blog will still be around then!

    2. 13.2
      S.

      That is weird to me too.  It’s just one year.  And really odd for someone to expect someone to go older for them, but they won’t do it for other people.

      Weird.

      One guy contacted me and he was 73.  That’s three years younger than my mom.  But I don’t know if he’d date my mom.  So odd!

      1. 13.2.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @S

        That is a huge age difference.  Desirable men generally do not date women their senior.  It does not matter how old they get or how long they have been single.  You have to remember that most guys start off in the dating world dating women their junior because women their age are dating older, more mature men.  For a very large proper subset of men, the pattern gets cast in stone, even if the woman is just a year or two younger.  As they age, women want to start dating men their own chronological age and younger, but men generally refuse to play along.  The fact is that many men secretly hold a grudge for being passed on by their peers in favor of older men when they were younger, and that grudge is often harbored in their psyches until they leave this place.  The longer a man remains single, the larger the age difference becomes until it reaches a point that I like to refer to as the “Hey Nineteen Break Point” (HNBP), which for most guys is around a decade (although, some guys appear to have no HNBP).  Guys will sleep with women younger than their HNBP, but they usually will not pursue anything long term.  If you listen to the Steely Dan tune by the same name, you will get the idea  The song is basically about the cultural disconnect between an older man and a younger woman.  He finds her to be sexually appealing, but cannot connect with her.

        Hey Nineteen

        Way back when, in ’67
        I was the dandy of Gamma Chi
        Sweet things from Boston
        So young and willing
        Moved down to Scarsdale
        Where the hell am I?

        [Chorus]
        Hey Nineteen
        No, we can’t dance together
        No, we can’t talk at all
        Please take me along when you slide on down

        Hey Nineteen
        That’s ‘Retha Franklin
        She don’t remember the Queen of Soul
        It’s hard times befallen
        The sole survivors
        She thinks I’m crazy
        But I’m just growing old

        [Chorus]
        Hey Nineteen
        No, we got nothin’ in common
        No, we can’t talk at all
        Please take me along when you slide on down

         

        1. Marika

          OMG YAG, it must be exhausting being you!

          (I know, I know, all men think like you and you’ve done the survey).

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @Marika

          No, I do not believe that all men think like me, but most of the men I know do think like me.  It does not take a rocket scientist to see this dynamic in action.   All one needs to do is Google “fifty-something women invisible” or “fifty-something men younger women.”  Once again, the dating pattern of a man being older than the woman in his life starts in high school and continues until most women marry, and it is driven by women, not men.  It is women who want to change the rules mid-life, not men, especially women over age fifty who no longer desire men who are the same age as their ex-husbands.  I am talking about mid-fifties women who were married to men who are now in their early to mid-sixties.  Men are just continuing to do what they have always done when it comes to selecting a mate.

        3. S.

          I know that narrative, but the only place I learned it was here on Evan’s blog.  Not even on other relationship blogs.  But if that’s your experience, that’s your experience.

          I still don’t understand how one single year makes a difference.  Nothing you’ve said really explains that to me..

          For the men who couldn’t get the women they wanted, I get it. When I was younger, I didn’t get the men I wanted.  I happen to be someone who blossomed later. Or maybe it was confidence? Maybe I got over myself, I dunno. I get way more attention now than I did at 26.  Way more.  But I don’t resent anyone about it.  Rejection sucks. Unrequited love sucks. I do really get that from the inside.  But I’m still alive!  I’m not going to hold it against the rest of men that they didn’t seem to want me then.

          I’m going to squeeze every drop of life I can out of this existence. Every bit of joy I can.  🙂 I can’t hold on to resentment indefinitely or overlook a great man because he’s one year younger or older than me.

          I do hope you also find what you are looking for.  🙂

        4. lapistolle

          Now that’s interesting, what YAG says. I’m 49 and I generally get approached for dating by men ages 32 to 38, pretty steadily. I haven’t experienced any shortage of men who are interested in older women. I have female clients in their 70s who have boyfriends in their 40s and 50s who have been together for years and going strong.

          Of course, in my case, I don’t have or want kids and won’t date a single parent. The guys I meet feel the same way, so we have a lot in common. It’s fun.

      2. 13.2.2
        Emily, the original

        YAG,

        Desirable men generally do not date women their senior. 

        And do they spend hours a day on dating advice blogs? Most of us are here to learn something; I think you are here to bring women down. You’re the Alanis Morissette of this blog. “I’m here, to remind you, that you’re old and fat and can’t get a man ….”

      3. 13.2.3
        Kitty

        S,

        I still don’t understand how one single year makes a difference.  Nothing you’ve said really explains that to me..

        This is one reason online dating is really tough; without the (relatively) empathizing presence of a real flesh person in front of them the plus perception of abundance many people become much pickier than they would be in real life and essentially end up looking for the tiniest excuses to write off someone.  Also, many people nowadays have totally internalized the concept of “market value” in human relationships to an excessive and dehumanizing degree.  That’s where the “one year” becomes of vital importance If you google “online dating” along with the word “soul” google automatically prepopulates the next word as “crushing”.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          Mostly because any other word after “online dating soul” would make absolutely no sense.

          Plus, you seem to have ignored the millions of relationships created by online dating.

        2. S.

          It’s just a shame. I’m sure there are fine people out there only one year older.  But if those people draw that kind of line in the sand, they aren’t for the people a year older anyway.

          And I’m not sure if it’s just online dating.  I have a suspicion the same folks probably wouldn’t date someone one year older in real life if they knew beforehand.  But they don’t know!

          I thought someone would write, ‘But that one year makes all the difference because___.  Or I feel it’s a different generation because___.’ Or something else that I could understand.  Maybe the truth is, one year really means nothing and we each can draw whatever line we want because we can.

          Which, hey, may be true. Just a shame if that’s really the reason.

  13. 15
    Marika

    Completely agree, Buck.

    Emily: where can I come and see your hilarious one-woman show? 🙂

    1. 15.1
      Emily, the original

      Marika,

      Emily: where can I come and see your hilarious one-woman show? 

      Thank you. I’ll be here all week.  🙂

  14. 16
    Marika

    Haha! Well, comedy clubs are dark, so hopefully you won’t run into any trouble leaving the house as a woman over 40.

    Just be sure not to be human in any way, if you can at all help it. Remembering that all male daters are perfect 🙂

    1. 16.1
      Emily, the original

      Marika,

      Remembering that all male daters are perfect

      Yes, and they’re all physically perfect, aging in reverse, and having to suffer through endless dates with painfully average women who fall obsessively in love with them.

    2. 16.2
      Kitty

      This whole discussion reminds me of a beautiful young woman from Afghanistan I once knew.  Although she had a university degree in journalism the was waxing eyebrows in a beauty salon for a living.  She was a very smart and interesting as well as being a talented esthetician, so one day after we became friends she showed me her wedding pictures.  I was shocked to see that her husband was not only shorter than she, fat and at least 30 years older but was frowning in his wedding pictures next to his beautiful young bride.  My face must have shown my feelings because she just said “he’s very lucky isn’t he” in a calm but resigned voice.  Little did she know that she had an alpha male at his peak waiting for her at home.

  15. 17
    Kitty

    Evan,

    Actually the first prepopulation is “online dating soul crushing”, the second is “online dating soul mates”, and the third is “online dating soul destroying”  If you google “online dating is soul…”  then you get “soul crushing” and “soul destroying” in the same order without “soul mates” in the line up.  Take it up with Sergey Brin if you think online dating has been unfairly slighted

    1. 17.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      It has nothing to do with Sergey Brin. It has to do with people like you who haven’t figured out how to make online dating work. Until you’ve gone through my Finding the One Online course, spare me your complaints.

      1. 17.1.1
        Kitty

        If you find YAG’s complaints about women 61 year old women who deign to write to him less deserving of censure than mine that is simply a matter of taste.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          I’m pretty sure lots of women here are already fighting that battle.

        2. Emily, the original

          I’m pretty sure lots of women here are already fighting that battle.

          We’ve actually surrendered that particular war and are just having fun.

        3. S.

          Hee! Emily is right. I’m in my mid-forties and I don’t date men in their late 50s who don’t cross the 59/60 mark.  Online or off.  They are entitled to their preference and when I see or hear that I know our values are incompatible.

          I wonder if other women in their mid-forties feel the same . . . 🙂

          On the another hand, the 73-year-olds have the widest age ranges!  And heck I don’t know what the men are thinking with the 18 – 91 range. I often wonder if they just left it at default or if they are actually serious! I do see that age range more often than you’d think!

          (And why not 18 – 92? LOL.)

        4. Emily, the original

          Hi S.,

          I’m in my mid-forties and I don’t date men in their late 50s who don’t cross the 59/60 mark. 

          I’m 46. I aim for 40 to 50. Maybe up to 51.

          And heck I don’t know what the men are thinking with the 18 – 91 range.

          They only criteria are that she’s legal and breathing!

        5. Buck25

          Kitty, everyone is fighting that battle, one way or another, and the older we are the tougher that battle gets. Couple points here. Foo first none of us (either gender) have any control over someone else’s preferences or preconceptions. It matters not if those preconceptions are at all rational or justified in our minds; they are to that other person’s. Second, attraction is not a choice, and neither is chemistry; a lot of this operates on a subliminal level, and it’s foolish to pretend this is a rational decision, because it simply isn’t. I don’t think any of us can honestly make ourselves feel attraction to (or chemistry with) anyone, when for whatever reason, we just…don’t. We have to have something to work with there, even if it’s borderline (the situation I think Evan and a lot of posters here refer to, when attraction/chemistry is iffy, but compatibility is high).

          That creates several dilemmas for those of us over fifty, and especially over sixty, in online dating. If we don’t set some preferences, we’re going to be seen as having no standards(see the comments by S. ). If we set our maximum age too low (to placate the opposite gender) we’re automatically rejected  for being too picky. All this in a dating pool that is a lot smaller than it was for most of us when we were in our thirties and forties(even fifties). The people we have even modest attraction to, mostly  simply don’t want us;  the ones attracted to us, are mostly those we can’t even remotely be attracted to (that goes for both genders, BTW).  Granted, that is a problem when we’re younger too; but the pool is larger overall then, which means a larger  pool of potentially attractive single  partners. The plain fact is, we all become less attractive to the opposite sex as we age. By fifty most women would prefer a younger man, or at least one no older than they are. For men it’s obviously the same, only we’re more used to being able to actually get that, than most women are. The resulting behavior is neither surprising, nor hard to see. By sixty and above, very few available members of the opposite  gender are even remotely attractive to us. The pool is shrinking, the competition for the tiny few somewhat desirable partners left, becomes more intense . Most of us (again either gender, become so physically repulsive to the opposite gender that there’s nearly zero chemistry or attraction most of the time (and that’s the more fit and younger looking ones of us; the rest may have the greatest personality, intellect, success, and everything else, and have little hope of ever again having a partner they feel any chemistry with at all). The result is, that one either has to:(1) settle for something without even the first spark of romance (or 2) cast a very wide net, and play an often grim numbers game where we try anyone who might remotely attract us, usually with dismal results.It is possible, but it takes, in my experience, a thousand times more effort, than it did at forty, and that applies, no matter how good a profile we write, how good and well-chosen our pictures are, how well we maintain ourselves, and whatever else about us might be desirable. On top of that, men complain about women in that age group being asexual (many after sixty are) women complain about most men in the same group being impotent (and many are). I don’t doubt that’s another factor in summary rejection of anyone our own age on both sides; we all know the high likelihood we’ll encounter that, too.

          The brutal irony  is, that we’re probably freer otherwise to have a relationship, and put some real energy into into, than we were since our early twenties….if we can get past the attraction/chemistry roadblock. A few of us may get lucky with that; most probably won’t. Nothing for it really except do the best we can, be as open as we can, and hope we can manufacture some luck for ourselves with enough effort, and find someone we can at least look at in the morning without feeling sick. if it feels any bette to you, Kitty, my experience over the last five years out there (online and real life, has given me some empathy for how women feel trying to be sexually attracted to a man when they aren’t , or even worse, trying to fake it with someone you feel zero attraction with, cause I’ve tried that too, and I liked it about as much as you all say you do, so I just refuse to do that anymore.Whether or not there’s anything to the common belief that a man can have sex with anything vaguely female, it doesn’t seem to work that way for me.

          @ Evan

          I know you disagree with every word of this, both for business reasons, and because you haven’t personally experienced dating at  fifty, sixty and beyond. Trust me, my friend, when I tell you that for anyone, male or female, it’s a damn far cry from the way it is in your thirties and even forties. I hope you’ll never find out the reality of that from your own experience, but it’s pretty brutal, cause your mind doesn’t age; it still feels thirty, and what’s attractive (visually and chemistry-wise) in the opposite sex doesn’t look much different than it did then…but their physical reality has changed and so has your own. You can talk of making do with minimal chemistry; but you have no conception of what it’s like to try to do this when there’s NO chemistry at all, except in the rarest of circumstances. I guess it remains that way until one’s libido simply ceases to exist. The challenge isn’t entirely hopeless, but it’s tougher than you might want to think. It’s not men’s fault, it’s not women’s fault…it  just is. Age makes a mockery of us all, in the end.

          @ s.

          About using that default range on a profile; I see a surprising number of women who do that too. Desperation? Not really serious? Who knows?

        6. Evan Marc Katz

          Welcome back, Buck. You couldn’t be further off about me: I love what you wrote and think it’s honest, incisive and balanced. Thanks for sharing.

        7. S.

          @Emily

          It’s not that I won’t date men older than 50.  I’m flexible to a point.  Not 70s.  A 30-year age gap is too much even for someone flexible about age.

          I just won’t date a man who won’t date women his own age.  Though YAG has shared his reasons why he dates younger women, I don’t know the reasons of every man. I just assume they have issues with their age or their generation or something I prefer not to deal with.

          Breathing! L.O.L.  You think they leave it that way on purpose?

          @Buck

          I would take it as they rushed through their profile and neglected to change it. Notably, I remember one guy who set his location to the entire world.  I thought again, it was just neglect, but in his profile he said he was willing to move, was totally flexible about location to find the love of his life.  He had been looking a while and decided to just open those parameters up.  They way he wrote it, it didn’t sound desperate, but determined and deliberate.  So you, never know!

        8. Emily, the original

          S.,
          It’s not that I won’t date men older than 50.  I’m flexible to a point.  Not 70s.  A 30-year age gap is too much even for someone flexible about age.
          Yes, that’s too much of an age difference. I think much more than 10 years younger or older is pushing it.
           

      2. 17.1.2
        Adrian

        Hi Buck25,

        Your post just helped explain why Yet Another Guy gets so many women with online dating. Most men complain about struggling to get the attention of at least one woman a month but YAG admits to getting loads of attention.

        I think it is because he is financially stable, articulate, and probably a charmer. Most mainly I think it is because he takes very good care of himself physically.

        You missed it but he posted a picture of himself and he is very muscular and solid, but other than that his face is very average (Maybe a 5 or a 6 on the Sexual Market Value scale). I take it from your and other older commenters post that it is rare for men and women who are in their mid-to-late 50’s and 60’s to not look… well old. Old or out of shape, or frail, or sickly, etc…

        My guess it that men and women who are older but still give off a vibe of strength and vitality are the cream of the crop for older dater??? Unlike with us younger daters it’s not necessarily their face that makes them attractive it’s their youthfulness when compared to others their age???

        And with an older man who gives off energy, strength, and vitality, along with the other attributes that women desire (height, financial stability, the status of education, etc) men like YAG are in the top 20% of the online dating world for the over 50 crowd?

        …   …   ….

        Anyway you have been gone for a while so my ranting about your inspired Eureka moment won’t make sense to you but it really helped me. YAG’s personality (at least online) doesn’t seem to be attractive so it always baffled me when he brags about the countless women throwing themselves at him, and not just for relationships but he always has dozens of women online throwing themselves at him for sex. I never thought he was lying I just did not understand how he attracted so many women.

        Yet now it all makes sense. From my 31 year old perspective there are countless attractive men and women so the requirements to be the top 20% is fierce. For men looks alone won’t cut it and for women their looks are everything (as far as their rating not their quality as a partner). The top 20% of men and women are more attractive than people who are already very attractive. But from your post it seems that as we age (Emily and Marika cover your eyes when I say this) it’s harder and harder to find someone who is physically attractive and someone who was average in looks in their 20’s and 30’s as long as they take care of themselves are treated like they are top tier catches when they reach their late 50’s and 60’s? And I gathered from your post you did not mean just a person’s face but you meant their overall look and aurora?

        The man or woman who is old that looks old verses the man or woman who is old but does not look old? It’s not necessarily that they look young they just don’t look old? So the older a man or woman gets the higher up they can go on the SMV rating just by taking good care of themselves because compared to their peers who aged badly they are still hot?

        That is interesting.

        Does this mean that the opposite is also true? Men and women who were considered hot, men and women who were the top 20% in their youth but aged badly go from the 20 percenters to the bottom 70%?

        I wonder if their are any books written on that? I can’t image what kind of psychological effect something like that would have on a person. A balanced person who had more to offer than just their looks would be fine but a person who go by on just their looks would be feeling the affects harder when they wake up one day at 50 with no education, no stable career, no real relationships.

        It’s all very fascinating.

        1. Buck25

          Adrian,

          Yeah, overall, YAG is sitting in sort of a sweet spot for a man in the online dating arena-Still fifty-something, in good shape (few are), relatively tall (I think I remember him saying around 6′), and from his pronouncements here, pretty cocky, or at least very confident. In other words, he checks most of a lot of women’s desirability boxes. He can easily date women ten or more years younger and does. Now. were he simply ten years older, and of average height, with all else the same or better, he’d face a much different picture. The maximum age most fifty-something women will accept, typically cuts off at 62 to 65; older than that, and no matter what else you are, you are invisible to 95% or more of women in that age group online. In addition, once past 65, you are invisible to most women in their early sixties,  pretty much no matter what your looks (unless your face is top 5% forget it), how good, original and creative your written profile is, how good your profile pictures or your financial status, or anything else. The most creative emails (I like to think I’m a pretty good writer) get you one response in a hundred from any woman under 65. Most won’t even read your profile at your profile, let alone respond; they see the age, and immediately hit “next”.  Of those who do, most are looking for even one tiny flaw as a reason to reject you, unless their own looks are so unfortunate they know their chances of getting anyone younger are nil, (and sometimes even then). The 70+ and 80+ women write you first, in droves (to them, you’re the younger man they want, and the better your profile the more of them will be writing you). This does you no good, because (1) they mostly are physically a complete turn-off, and(2) even if they aren’t, they put little to no effort into showing any real substance in their profiles, so even if you wanted to respond, there’s nothing there to respond to. Believe me, I know, because I read the profiles of any women who might be even close to marginal in the looks department, and if possible the profiles from the 70+ women are even sketchier and show less effort than those of their younger counterparts who think anything more than a two line profile is too much work for them to be bothered with (speaks volumes to me about how much they think a relationship with any man is worth to them.)

          The only flaw in your last paragraph is that you don’t have to age badly to go from top 20% to bottom 10%, as far as what you can attract; all you have to do, is age, period. I think that’s true for both genders. When I hit 66, I watched my response rate online drop by 50 t0 75 percent in a month, without any other change to my profile, email strategy, or who I was writing to; the door simply slammed shut, quickly and with brutal efficiency. I guess in a way you can’t blame women for this; from their point of view, perhaps that’s the age when they calculate you have so few quality years left to give them, that a younger man of close to equal or even lesser value simply offers them more in the long run. The interesting part is, that you can still obtain casual sex, if you want that, from relatively attractive women in their forties, or even younger, but their life stage and life experiences are so far removed from yours, that there’s no chance of a relationship working out for more than a few months, if that. I expect that’s much the same for attractive older women still able to attract much younger men. At least I’ve known a few socially who seem to have an endless string of “relationships” (usually lasting a couple of months maximum), with men 15 to 20 years younger, but never seem to find anything viable long term. “Balanced ” or not, that’s a hard blow to take, when you’ve been out of the game for 20 years or so, and return to find your chances of finding a relationship you’d actually want are far slimmer than once they were. It’s not that you don’t have options, if you’re educated, have some charm and have had some financial success. You have options, plenty of them…but few if any that have any chance of becoming a long term relationship. You can get laid, and get some ego validation (both genders) but that’s mostly what you have to look forward to. YAG still has  a few years before it catches up with him too, no matter how buff he stays; I hope he makes the most of it while he can.

        2. Adrian

          Hi Buck25,

          Fasinating…

          So in your opinion/experience-regardless of what the women on this blog say

          The pattern that you see is that as women age the more shallow they become?

          All that stuff about character and quality goes out the window for the hot guy?

        3. Adrian

          Meant: Fascinating

        4. Buck25

          Adrian,

          On your last, I don’t know if I’d call that change in women as they age into their fifties and beyond  “more shallow”. It looks that way, on one level, but I think it’s more complicated than that. It’s less about chasing “younger and hotter” per se, than trying to find some chemistry at all, in what is likely to be the last hurrah for both her and her potential partner. The sheer age of a  guy 60 and beyond may be a reminder of her own aging, and her own mortality. Granted, one can die a lot younger than that with or without warning (I just lost a dear friend in September. She was only 47), but statistically a woman stands to have more good quality years with a reasonably healthy 50 year old than with a healthy 69 year old like me (one more reason I’ve all but stopped even dating women in their forties at all; I’m very reluctant to even attempt that now, even though for some curious reason I still don’t understand, I draw more interest from the mid to late forties age group (online and real life) than I do from the fifty-something group-the number is of course small, but that’s more than essentially non-existent. I used to think this was a case of character, achievement, personality etc. not mattering to this 50+ age group, as you suggested. Now, I think it still does, but it’s no longer quite so much a priority vs. attraction/chemistry; or maybe a better way to put it is that for many, character alone is no longer  enough-they demand attraction/chemistry to go with it, and apparently don’t feel that any 60 to 65+ man can give them enough of that, no matter what. I think many of these women have come to think of a man that age as no longer really a man, on account of age alone; and if that’s their perception, then to them, it’s reality, and there’s no way I can see for any man to combat it. One can only hope to meet one of the rare reasonably attractive women who don’t subscribe to that particular notion. There are, in my experience, damned few of those. I suppose I have 6 to perhaps 18 months to find one of those, as once I get past 70 officially, I’ll be expired goods to sixty somethings as well.

  16. 18
    Marika

    Emily

    I can relate to the fear of not trusting yourself to make a good choice and getting carried away with chemistry. I’m currently having to physically restrain myself from spending the weekend up the coast with a guy where the chemistry is 11/10, as he revealed the other night that he’s not ready for a relationship.

    But Evan’s, Karl R’s and Sparkling Emerald’s stories (among others) give me hope. You can stuff up, choose the wrong people, chase chemistry, feel hopeless etc, and it can still all work out, if you persist and keep trying to make better choices 🙂

    1. 18.1
      Emily, the original

      Marika,

      I’m currently having to physically restrain myself from spending the weekend up the coast with a guy where the chemistry is 11/10, as he revealed the other night that he’s not ready for a relationship.

      I know the feeling, but part of the issue, as unhealthy as I know it to be … well, part of me digs it. To  jump over that cliff into all kinds of lust and inappropriateness, there’s nothing like it. It just can’t compare to Mr. I-Know-To-Be-A-Healthy-Choice.

      and it can still all work out, if you persist and keep trying to make better choices

      Thanks for the kind words. I’m fine as long as nothing tempting shows up.   🙂

      1. 18.1.1
        Marika

        I hear you, but I think where we’re different is that I don’t dig the idea of a guy only wanting me for sex. You can separate sex from emotion; I can’t. The ideal for me is hot sex with that amazing guy who thinks I’m amazing too and wants us to be together.

        So maybe it’s fine for you to just have flings with hot guys? Maybe for you that is the right choice? I need to avoid it personally as short term pleasure leads to longer term pain for me. But not for you?

        1. Emily, the original

          Marika,

          So maybe it’s fine for you to just have flings with hot guys? Maybe for you that is the right choice? I need to avoid it personally as short term pleasure leads to longer term pain for me. But not for you?

          It depends on how into the guy I am. If I’m super into him, then, yes, I will be hurt if it’s just sex but if that’s all that’s offered, I will probably say yes. (I haven’t had sex with someone I was really into for years.)

          The problem lies in that if I am half into him, I don’t get hurt … but then the sex is “meh” or adequately forgettable because I’m not that into him.

        2. Adrian

          Hi Emily and Marika

          I am like Marika-I can’t separate sex and emotions. Also unlike many guys I can’t have sex with someone whom I am not attracted to-so I can’t have sex just for the sake of sex.

          But Emily you said, “I haven’t had sex with someone I was really into for years.

          Again this is why I don’t understand your reluctance for using online dating (don’t worry I am not asking, by this point you have avoided the question enough for me to take the hint). And this will be my last time mentioning it.

          Online dating offers QUANTITY and VARIETY. Surely you would find that hot guy who you could just get sex from without commitment. In fact, from what I gather from this blog you will find that very easily online as a woman. And from the way you have described yourself throughout the years you are attractive so you would have no problem with being contacted by some hot guys.

          Many average looking women say they get 50-100 messages a day so I am sure that an attractive women like yourself Emily would get easily double that. And since you are okay with just sex and no relationship then you can just scroll through looking at their pictures only without reading their profiles. So no spending hours on the computer.

        3. Emily, the original

          Hi Adrian,

          Online dating offers QUANTITY and VARIETY. Surely you would find that hot guy who you could just get sex from without commitment. In fact, from what I gather from this blog you will find that very easily online as a woman

          I should have been more specific. I haven’t had sex with a level 10 chemistry in years, but I’ve only experienced a level 10 chemistry twice in the last decade or so. It’s very rare. I’m not expecting it. I was answering Marika’s question — with a level 10, I would be hurt it was only sex.

          But in general, I feel deeply ambivalent about dating.

    2. 18.2
      Adrian

      Hi Marika,

      I am confused (O_o).

      You say you have strong chemistry for this guy but I thought you said that you weren’t that into him?

      Because you chastised me for speaking about looks too much and then you said that you are with a guy who has a six pack and you thought so what? He is probably just another meat head.

      How did you go from this guy’s body is so what and he is probably not intellectually on your level to “having to restrain yourself from him?”

      What are you basing your chemistry with him on?

       

      1. 18.2.1
        Marika

        Adrian

        You think complex human desires and feelings can be easily explained in words!

        I’ll try..on a chemical level I’m very into him. I don’t love the 6 pack because of what it potentially represents (gym obsession/narcissism), not because it doesn’t look good. Physically he’s my typical type – the opposite of me. I’m blond, thin, tall and lilly white, he’s medium build, dark colouring, medium height. He’s by no means perfect in his looks, his teeth aren’t great, his hair is thinning with flecks of grey, but I like flaws. That makes him more attractive to me. I was starting to worry he was a superficial show pony (very unattractive to me). But I’ve gotten to know him and he has a depth that adds to his attractiveness.

        But: he’s not ready for a relationship and I’ve noticed some selfish tendencies. So I’m trying to ignore the chemistry to ensure I see this more wholistically and logically.

        1. Emily, the original

          Marika,

          I’ll try..on a chemical level I’m very into him.

          Do men not feel a chemical reaction to certain women? I feel like we are repeatedly having to explain the difference a hormonal, chemical dopamine rush and acknowledging someone is aesthetically appealing without necessarily feeling the chemistry?

        2. Adrian

          Hi Marika

          That makes more sense. Basically the more time you spent with him the more your attraction for him grew?

          But to even accept a date request from him wasn’t there some level of physical attraction from you?

          99% of the time men agree on the “attractiveness” of a women (though their “attraction” for her may vary). Regardless of a man’s age or background for the most part we have a hive mind when it comes to looks and attractiveness. Two different guys can pretty much agree that a woman is either in the lower, middle, or upper tier of attractiveness (we use 1-10 scale on paper or when we have time to think but instinctively we just asing top, bottom, or middle).

          But it seems women don’t work like that? I’m not talking about your “attraction” for a man but his level of “attractiveness?” You and Emily said 2 women can see the same man and one thinks he is hot and the other thinks he is average or one thinks he is top tier and the other thinks he is in the middle?

          I find that fascinating…

          If two men saw a Megan Fox (not how she looks now but when she first came upon the scene) they would both agree she was in the top tier of attractiveness. But from what I am gathering from you both two women can see Zach Elfron and one think he is top tier and the other think he is only in the middle?

          And yes love blurs everyone’s perceptions of their partner even men. But I hope you and Emily would have guess that normally when we guys are referring to looks as what influence us with women we are talking about in the initial stages before an emotion connection has developed.

        3. Emily, the original

          Adrian,
          But it seems women don’t work like that? I’m not talking about your “attraction” for a man but his level of “attractiveness?” You and Emily said 2 women can see the same man and one thinks he is hot and the other thinks he is average or one thinks he is top tier and the other thinks he is in the middle?
          No. They’ve done studies of classes where, at the start, everyone — men and women — can agree on who is attractive. When students are asked who is attractive months later, the number of people has expanded for both men and women because people have gotten to know each other.
          But from what I am gathering from you both two women can see Zach Elfron and one think he is top tier and the other think he is only in the middle?
          No, all women would agree he is very handsome but he might not be every woman’s “type.” He’s not mine — beefy frat boy does nothing for me.
          Now, attracTION is totally different. That’s a hormonal, chemical response that doesn’t necessarily correspond to the most attracTIVE person. I’m not sure why the difference is so complicated. Have you never met a woman who you took one look at and your stomach hit the floor? You got close to her and you could hardly speak? Surely you don’t feel that way around every attractive woman.

        4. Jeremy

          It’s funny Emily, I know you’ve described the sensation of taking one look at a man and having your stomach drop through the floor with hormonal attraction.  I’ve experienced something similar but different – taking one look at a woman and thinking that sex with her would be crazy – that she was somehow much more sexual than most other women, though not necessarily more attractive.  I vividly recall a lecture back when I was a student where the prof was a psychiatrist specializing in sexual disorders.  He discussed that very thing, and mentioned that in his experience those women who give off that sort of vibe often have a history of sexual abuse that they are overcompensating for.  I remember being very sceptical about that….until I once dated such a woman and she told me her story of being raped as a young teen.  Granted, anecdotal evidence at best, but the prof seemed to think there was something to it.  I doubt the reverse is true of the men to whom you feel pheromonal attraction, though.

        5. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          I’ve experienced something similar but different – taking one look at a woman and thinking that sex with her would be crazy

          I don’t know what you mean by crazy. That she’s crazy? That the sex would be hot because she’s crazy? That she scares you? That you prefer the safe choice?

          in his experience those women who give off that sort of vibe often have a history of sexual abuse that they are overcompensating for.  I remember being very skeptical about that….until I once dated such a woman and she told me her story of being raped as a young teen

          I’m not sure how to respond to this, either. The men I’ve felt instant attraction for weren’t oozing subversive, sexual appeal. In fact, the last one was quite boyish. They aren’t Marlon Brando in “Streetcar Named Desire”! I don’t know any men personally who ooze sexual appeal.

    3. 18.3
      SparklingEmerald

      Hi Marika – I’m glad my story gave you hope.  Now that I am happily married to a wonderful man I think I should stay away from this blog, especially since it intermittently gets over run with red-pill types who ONLY come here to antagonize women and tear us down.   Then I read a comment like yours, and think, maybe I should pop in once and a while.

      1. 18.3.1
        Marika

        I would appreciate if you did, please, Sparkling, as one of the success stories!

        I asked you a question on another blog. It was a really old post where you had written about taking a break from dating. I asked if the break helped, or you did something different, or what changed for you to go from that to happily married. Was it mindset or a different technique? If you don’t mind me asking ☺

        1. SparklingEmerald

          Hi Marika – No I don’t mind you asking.  I really didn’t make any major changes to my personality, mind set, etc.  Yes, I think the breaks helped, because like all things in life, you need to take a break from something if you are getting exhausted etc.  Even in my exercise classes, we take “working recoveries”.  So the breaks served as my “working recovery” from OLD, and this blog served as a place for me to vent (lucky you guys 🙂 )

          I think the biggest boost for me,  was re-writing my profile using the advice in “Finding the One Online”.  I wrote two different profiles using Evan’s technique, then had his profile writing service write one for me, and I just rotated them around.

          But mostly I kept doing what I was doing, until finally it worked.  Prior to this blog, I wasn’t eliminating men based on height or income  (Financial stability was all I required, not a 6 figure salary) I didn’t chase men. I didn’t chase men “out of my league”. I didn’t date players.   I have ALWAYS been open and attracted to many different types of men looks-wise.  All my major relationships have been with men under 5’8″. I have no problem with bald men, blue collar men, etc.   So despite the false accusations made against on this blog that I was holding out for a 6 foot rock star, millionaire, that simply was never the case.  I am too impatient to wait around for years for a non-commital guy to come around.  I dumped men the minute they issued “the disclaimer”.  Or the moment it became obvious that they were only looking for a hook-up.

          Essentially I was doing most of what is suggested here, not rejecting men on superficial qualities, not wasting time with non-committers, not sleeping with men in the absence of a relationship.  But my profile and my e-mails were a real snooze-fest until I bought “Finding the one Online”.  I changed my profile and started getting better quality men writing to me. And having fun, flirty e-mail exchanges, instead of the previous typical boring back and forth.

          But my core personality, style, etc. are pretty much the same.  I didn’t even drastically alter my appearance.  I found someone who loved me the way I am .

          Anyway, if a twice divorced, late fifties, cute but not gorgeous woman like me can find love, then it’s possible for anyobne.

           

  17. 19
    Marika

    Yes, Adrian, if that’s how men think, women are very different. Throughout the 90s Tom Cruise was considered a heart-throb. I thought he was medium at best. My friends have spotted a ‘hot guy’ when we’re out dancing and I’m like, ‘meh’ (and no doubt vice versa).

    The 11/10 guy – I was always attracted to him physically. I don’t know where you get the idea that I wasn’t? That being said, I’ve accepted dates with men who were fun and cool, who didn’t knock my socks off physically, because I know physical good looks have no correlation with being a good partner. That’s the message I’m trying to get through to you! A hot girl with a good body could potentially be the worst girlfriend ever.

    We should stop talking about 11/10 though. I’m a Love U almost graduate, I should know better 🙂

    You probably won’t be able to relate to this, but I fondly recall a guy I met in Austria in my early 20s. He was nothing to look at and was overweight. But: he was the most charismatic, fun, interesting, big hearted and well-liked person I think I’ve ever met. When he talked to me I felt like the only person on earth. I had major chemistry with him. If not for my strict Catholic upbringing (can relate to your story) and the fact that he was leaving Austria the night of the day I arrived, I’m sure I would’ve done many things with him and cared not one bit about his weight or less than perfect face. And I had one date this year with probably the hottest man in existence, Brazillian, toned, tall, muscly, the whole bit. I actively avoided seeing him again because he was so deathly dull. He was a great kisser and that bit was fine, but after one night of trying to force conversation and picking up on how into himself he was (all he talked about was the foods he would/wouldn’t eat, his gym regime etc), that was a turnoff and I didn’t pine for that perfect face & body one little bit. I will pine for 11/10 though. Chemistry (for women) is not all about conventional good looks.

  18. 20
    Kitty

    Adrian,

    Yes, physical attraction can grow for (most) women if they get to know a guy and find other qualities they like.  And you’re right it’s hard for a woman to change a man’s assessment of desirability unless she alters her looks in some way (weight loss, cosmetic surgery etc.)  I often like the looks of men whose appeal is relatively unconventional.  I looked up Zach Efron and he is certainly objectively attractive in terms of facial symmetry and a strong body but he’s not my type.  Judging solely from his pictures he strikes me as vapid and narcissistic.  If I knew him in real life and he turned out to be intelligent and kind I’d find him attractive but as a flat image I’m not particularly impressed.  Of course men with craggy features and out of shape bodies can be vapid and narcissistic but unless they were blatant about it I might not glean that sort of first impression.

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