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He is repulsed by my leg hair. I’ve never been one to shave or wax my legs very consistently. Over the winter I’ve been known to go for 6 months without grooming. But last year decided that this whole hairless thing was kind of silly (and kind of sexist…not anyone’s fault just the jolly old patriarchy and all) and definitely not worth the time and money it took to keep my legs smooth.
My boyfriend was not pleased about this. All of a sudden the man who told me he couldn’t stop loving me even if I gained a hundred pounds and wanted to have sex twice a day now doesn’t have much interest in having sex with me at all. He told me recently he doesn’t even like cuddling anymore because he can feel the hair. Yet he is still happy to accept oral sex from me…
So I know this could technically be exchanged for any other body part. What if my boyfriend didn’t like my short hair cut or my pubic hair, etc. But leg/armpit hair seems to be unique. It is such a widespread and visible practice that I think many men just automatically associate furry legs as manly, and assume that all girls magic themselves hairless without much effort. My boyfriend has said he’s tried to get over this but can’t.
I am at a loss for what to do. On the one hand, even though the thought of having to groom all over for the rest of my life seems terrible, it’s not the worst compromise to make for an otherwise great man. On the other hand I’ve found something that makes me feel great about my body. I know it sounds crazy but not shaving has made me feel more powerful, more human, and oddly more feminine. And something feels kind of gross about taking the razor to that for a man.
But I know you like numbers, and I know that more men are going to find smooth legs attractive than men who will find hairy legs attractive. But I also know there is a fair amount of men who don’t really care.
At the moment I’m feeling really hurt and unattractive and that’s not how one hopes to feel in a lifelong partnership. Yet I know he feels hurt too. Even though we’ve had long conversations about my reasons for doing it and how I don’t mind doing for him occasionally but not every day and how I want to find other ways to be ‘sexy’, he still feels like this is a really easy and nice thing I could do for him. Though when I asked him to shave his legs for a month just to see what it was like, he refused. I feel especially hurt because I’ve accepted him for exactly who he is, and have never asked him to change anything about himself (appearance or otherwise). He’s average height, a bit overweight and balding. But I chose to get over those things because he’s an otherwise great guy and I’m still sexually attracted to him as a whole. I am a 25 year old yoga instructor. I don’t mean to sound conceited but I know I look pretty fab. Yet he can’t get over a bit of body hair…
So what do I do? Do I get over it and just shave my legs or risk losing this relationship as well as potential future partners who will be grossed out by my leg hair?
Or do I leave the relationship letting him find a new pair of legs, and moving on to hairier pastures?
Sincerely,
Kayla (aka Chewbacca)
I’m somewhat surprised that I haven’t been asked this question before, and somewhat surprised that I don’t have a ready-made answer.
Your boyfriend isn’t asking you to undergo a personality transplant. He’s asking you to something you’ve done before, something you did before you met him, something that is widely accepted as standard practice for women.
But your question is so well-written, Kayla, that it seems like you’ve already thought of this from most angles. First:
It is such a widespread and visible practice that I think many men just automatically associate furry legs as manly, and assume that all girls magic themselves hairless without much effort. My boyfriend has said he’s tried to get over this but can’t.
You kind of nailed it right there.
I can see why it’s frustrating to you, but attraction is not something you can logic your way into. It’s why you can’t force yourself to be attracted to the nice guy who brings you flowers on the first date, or force yourself to be attracted to the bland CPA who will probably make a good husband for someone, just not you.
We can go back and forth and negotiate WHY you’re not attracted to him — and while we may even make some headway in figuring it out, what does it change?
Unless the CPA were to undergo a personality transplant, you’re still not going to be attracted to him.
And that’s where your situation is different. Your boyfriend isn’t asking you to undergo a personality transplant. He’s not asking you to try polyamory. He’s not asking you to quit being a yoga instructor and get a desk job.
He’s asking you to do something you’ve done before, something you did before you met him, something that is widely accepted as standard practice for women.
Here’s an entire New York Magazine article about it from last summer.
So you can blame the patriarchy and choose to rebel against it.
Or you can shave your legs and armpits like 90+% of the population, because it will mean that your boyfriend remains attracted to you.
I know that sounds insensitive — like I’m putting his needs before yours.
I’m not. I’m acknowledging what you wrote.
On the one hand, even though the thought of having to groom all over for the rest of my life seems terrible, it’s not the worst compromise to make for an otherwise great man.
You gain far more from a lifetime with this man than you lose in the 10 minutes a week you spend shaving.
This is really what it comes down to. Your issue is body hair. Other couples may quibble about money or fitness or cleanliness or family.
But it’s all the same question: Would I rather compromise to make my partner happy, or would I rather find a different partner?
No one in the world can answer that for you. But I would suggest, given how hard it is to find the “elusive alpha male nerd”, that you gain far more from a lifetime with this man than you lose in the 10 minutes a week you spend shaving.
I feel this way about beards (and any manicured facial hair, like moustaches or goatees).
I’d go for a short, chubby, bald man who’s almost always clean-shaven (a little stubble’s okay, though) than a hot guy with a beard. I don’t like the way it looks. I don’t like the way it feels. It ruins kissing for me – one of life’s greatest pleasures. I love touching, nuzzling and kissing a man’s face, and want to be able to get up close and personal with his skin.
This was an issue with one boyfriend in particular. I thought we’d compromised by agreeing stubble was okay. But as our relationship progressed, he was really resentful that he couldn’t have a beard. It was probably one of the reasons he disappeared. I felt terrible about not being able to accept him beard and all, but I just couldn’t. And he wasn’t willing to meet me in the middle with the stubble – he really wanted to have a beard. As petty as it sounds, it turns out we weren’t a match. Attraction is important. And I agree with Evan – you need to figure out whether or not it’s a compromise you’re willing to make.
This is how it is. People are allowed to do whatever they want: shave whatever, or not shave at all.
And we all have the ability to make our own personal choices. I won’t date a chick with a mustache or hairy armpits. You won’t date a dude with a beard. There is nothing wrong with these standards. It’s just personal preference.
I have a beard, and we wouldn’t work. That’s okay. If you don’t follow your standards, your relationships will never work out.
I’m a firm believer that people have the right to do whatever they want, but people also have the right to judge who they want in a relationship, on the physical, emotional, and personality.
This is how it is: If you have a mustache, you have no reason to only want a woman with no mustache. If you don’t shave your armpits, you should be able to also accept a woman with hairy armpits.
Hypocrisy is one of the worse things in the world.
So the writer of this article needs to be fired… absolutely TERRIBLE advice! The worst!
This woman should leave her man and find one who is in love with her body hair. I know they are out there, I had a bf that worshipped my body & especially body hair. Super empowering!
Body hair is so sexy and extremely feminine in my opinion. And it takes a damn strong woman to move past conforming to a societal standard to be herself wholly and love who she truly is. This man doesn’t deserve this woman!
You can’t get fired from giving free advice online. But you can stop reading it.
If left to nature, our bodies would stink, our teeth would be crooked and yellow, and our finger and toe nails would grow out of control. We would have hair growing out of our nose and ears. We would have lint in our belly buttons.
Ironically, there are guys..and women, who fit that description. So you should just accept one of those men, and love him for who he is…and if any of your lady friends ends up with a man like that, you should give them that same advice.
Or, we can agree that there is nothing wrong with the societal standards of washing our bodies, brushing our teeth, trimming our nails and grooming unwanted hairs. And nothing at all wrong with wanting our partners to do the same thing.
i find this ridiculous people can have whatever preference they wish if im 1k lbs and only want a partner whos 100 lbs its my choice if i could seriously find someone willing to put up with that then more power to me same with body hair if you dont want your partner to have facial hair and look for that in a partner it doesn’t mean you yourself cant have 6 feet of hair hanging off your face if they accept that who are you to even tell others what is acceptable between two consenting adults
Lol…….I find women with hairy armpits hot. Although whether a woman has hairy armpits or not doesn’t matter.
Just do a laser – problem solved. 🙂
Exactly as California Girl said. If what you object to is the act of shaving and the time it takes, but are willing to have smooth legs all the time, then have some laser treatments. Most good dermatologists now do this in their office; it will take a few treatments to get it all, because of hair follicle growth cycles. And there may be some followup treatments a ways down the road, as shut-down follicles start producing hair again. But as cosmetic procedures go, it’s remarkably little money, hassle and down time for a lifetime of ditching your razor.
If this is really about some bigger issue (not feeling loved for who you are, or whatever), then laser hair removal won’t solve the problem. Only you can decide that.
For many women, laser hair removal doesn’t work. It has best results on pale-skinned people with dark hair.
What Henriette said.
Speaking from personal experience ~ Laser hair removal is NOT inexepensive. It is time consuming. It is a bit painful, though not excruciating. I am average pale skin with dark brown hair. For me — after oh, probably $1,100+ in laser treatments (at a dermatologist’s office), ultimately NOTHING about the hair growth, speed of growth, number of hairs, density or anything else changed. Complete waste of money. If I ever considered “permanent” hair removal again, I’d go with electrolysis.
I have a $200 laser hair removal system at home…it isn’t too time consuming at all – definitely zero pain – and it WORKS! 🙂 I haven’t needed to replace the bulb or anything yet. The one I use is called Silk’n SensEpil – only buy direct from their site as there are counterfeits on amazon. It didn’t take that many sessions for mine to stop growing back in…just an option anyway!
Depends where you go. I went to Hair Today, Gone Tomorrow about ten years ago and did my bikini area and underarms. The hair is gone and never came back. Total bill around $300. It wasn’t painful at all, there’s just a little *shock!* feeling for an instant. I don’t know if that chain is still around which is why I recommended dermatologists, which will be more expensive. I am fair skinned and dark haired, however darker women CAN get a good result with laser hair removal; it just might take them more visits. They are coming out with new lasers all the time and it’s worth a phone call to find out more.
The topic isn’t hair removal but as a dark-skinned black woman who had some laser hair removal, no it doesn’t take more treatments. It really just depends on the person and their hair.
The price is definitely getting lower as it becomes more common, so she might be able to find a good deal on it if she really wants a permanent solution.
Just shave your legs you lazy girl, sheesh.
I don’t shave.
I am certainly not lazy.
You are. He should dump you and get out of this mess asap. What girl doesn’t shave her legs? He can tell all his buddies, “yeah, I dumped Isobel because she didn’t shave her legs at all”… then they tell all their friends and girlfriends and you turn into that magical gorilla you always wanted to be!
I am not the OP.
And you know what? I don’t care what any of my exes say about me. When you grow up, you’ll find that is a good way to be.
Well, then so are most men. Lazy and gorillas. She isn’t alone in that. 🙂
What if some girls are just comfortable in their own skin and decided not to shave because they love their body just the way it is? What if you said “I dumped her because she has embraced her insecurity.” Doesn’t that make you sound like a judgemental ass? Open your mind a bit.
Well, he’s overweight and balding at 25 and she’s chosen to accept him. She’s a good looking yoga instructor and if he can’t tolerate her body in it’s natural state, maybe she should dump him?
He is 34.
Nobody’s body is in their “natural state” any more, whatever that means… where do you draw the line? Should we not take baths and brush our teeth any more?
Oops, I stand corrected – he’s 34, she’s 25. He can let himself go, but she’s not allowed to. Now I’m up to speed.
Please don’t compare shaving body hair to basic hygiene. There is NOTHING dirty about body hair, regardless of what society tells us (and why is it only dirty on women, hmmmm?) COME ON, ladies! Realize that this is a personal choice and all of the negativity I’m seeing is disgusting. If a woman doesn’t want to shave, she shouldn’t. But Sonia’s comment at the top is what this is all about: compromise. If the OP thinks she can do this, then fine. But at the same time, she’s only 25. She has time to find a man who doesn’t care about her body hair (and from personal experience I know they exist)
Gosh you ladies are really quite vociferous about a topic that is light hearted, if anything.
No, body hair is not “dirty”, I never said it was. And many, many men shave their facial hair so this is not just a women thing. I cannot believe how this topic is being turned into a weapon for gender war when really, it is just about personal choice and what other people find attractive.
My original point is that no one’s body is in their natural state any more (note: I did not say that natural is dirty. It is just natural.) We all wash our hair, brush our teeth, shave, wax, colour our hair, pluck, paint our nails… whatever, take your pick. My point is we all use some form of enhancements. A large part of the reason we do this is to be attractive and/or tolerable to other people. You can decide where you draw the line in what you are willing to do, and other people can draw the line in what they’re willing to accept. It really is that simple.
@Claire
“No, body hair is not “dirty”, I never said it was.
People only said that because you brought hygiene when everyone was taking about hair. 😉
“And many, many men shave their facial hair so this is not just a women thing.”
Men are still “allowed” to have beards. It’s socially acceptable. Now women with mustaches… not even men who doesn’t shave their faces would want them.
“I cannot believe how this topic is being turned into a weapon for gender war when really, it is just about personal choice and what other people find attractive.”
Gender war? People are talking about a hypocritical double standard that is alive for years now. It’s not just about what people find attractive.
“You can decide where you draw the line in what you are willing to do, and other people can draw the line in what they’re willing to accept. It really is that simple.”
I wish it was that simple. But most people who doesn’t fit the “standard” suffer. I bet you fit in and feel attracted only to people who also fit in, so congrats, I guess. But that’s not that easy for many.
And many, probably most men, are hypocrites. They only accept women with no body hair, but would not accept to shave den if their women preferred that way. They turn down women only because… they are women! Only because of their sexual maturity, only because they are adults and have hair. Most women would NEVER do that to men.
He has a good point, though. She started off by having shaved legs and she switched it up on him. Is it really fair of her to suddenly switch it up on him? No.
What should she do if he ever switched it up on her by getting fatter or balder? Or jobless, or sick. Leave him as soon as possible?
Only the letter writer can know what’s right for her. In her shoes, I would end things with the boyfriend and move on. I don’t think he’s a bad guy ~ he sounds lovely ~ but this doesn’t seem to be an issue just about leg shaving but rather about her core values: her version of feminism, body autonomy, etc.
I can’t imagine that a good-looking, 25 year-old yoga instructor will have any difficulty attracting numerous suitors. And I agree with Evan that the 20s are about learning (this includes defining and honing one’s own values) so I’d suggest she get back out there and continue to explore before settling down.
Nope. I’d have to walk away.
This is not about hairy legs, it’s about acceptance and compromise. Neither party is accepting, nor able to compromise. One of them could shrug and drop the matter, in the belief that legs shaved or not is such an insignificant issue and not worth getting upset about. But, neither can do this, as the hairy leg stuff represents something deeper in each of them. They either commit to exploring and understanding what is really going on, or they stay with the non-shaving as being the main problem.
I write as someone who has not shaved her legs, or armpits, for 20 years.
Most guy won’t care if a woman walks. No more nagging, no more arguments. Please walk because women are doing men a big favour. Men are expected to shave their face on a daily basis and yet women don’t even want to shave their legs?
For a woman, shaving is a lot more work. Men take 5 minutes to shave one small part of their body in the morning. Women, in contrast, shave two legs, their underarms and their bikini area. Even if she doesn’t have to shave every day, that’s still really time-consuming. Not to mention the contortionist actions we must learn to use to shave effectively.
It takes 5 minutes to shave your legs and arm pits. In the shower, every few days, or so.. And hair removing cream, on the bikini area..
It takes me about 10 minutes to shave. I use safety razors which take longer however I get a close shave. Within 12 hours hair is already growing back fast. Also the hair is thicker on my face than it is on my legs not that I shave my legs.
Men AREN’T expected to shave their face on a daily basis. Beards are trendy now. I see tons of men walking around with giant beards that they obviously aren’t shaving and are clearly not groomed.
Most men actually care when a woman walks. Even when she has much more deeper problems than just “nagging” or arguments, but actually violence, his misogyny, his cheating, him ringing STD home. Women have it much worse, but they aren’t whining over here like vitimcs like you are right now. Women make themselves the biggest favor not even getting close to pseudo-men like you, who are unfortunately a big part. 😉
And you are wrong, or just a liar. Men are NOT expected to shave their faces. Having a beard is socially acepptable. MOST women accept men with beards. Most preffer it not to be that long, but still – we can have it!
Now, not even said men with beards would want a woman with a little mustache…big hypocrites.
And you should compare body ahir to body hair. Both genders have it. If a men is haity, what he has to say about anyone else’s body hair?
Still, most preffer being sexist and will only accept women with no body hair, but would not accept to shave even if their women preferred that way. They turn down women only because… they are women! Only because of their sexual maturity, only because they are adults and have hair. Most women would NEVER do that to men, and you know it. Most women like it and accept their men’s sexual maturity and body hair.
Maybe this is way too simple, but can’t you just shave sometimes? Like, shave in the summer, but not in the winter? Or shave for special dates/occasions, but not all the time? That way you’re both happy some of the time and you’re both putting up with something you’d rather not some of the time to make the other happy…
I hate shaving too (just because I’m lazy), but when I’m in relationships I wave smooth legs around sometimes and say, ‘Feel, I shaved!’ and then if on another day when we’re getting physical I happen to be hairy, well tough, because I’m smooth sometimes.
I do think it’s kind of harsh of him to completely refuse to try shaving his own legs and I do think he’s being a bit mean to you, but also I think you’re being a bit stubborn too in refusing to shave at all ever anymore. As someone who is currently single and not feeling emotionally up to starting anything new yet, being with something more or less okay sounds way too precious to me to give up for something as compromise-able on as leg shaving! If you shave sometimes, he’ll be happy and it will grow back! If he expects you to shave ALL the time, then that’s another matter, but there’s a LOT of middle ground between never shaving and never having any hair at all!
OMG… IS NOT ABOUT HIM – IS ABOUT SELF RESPECT AND FEEL GOOD.. YOU OBVIOUSLY ARE NOT FEELING TO GOOD WITH HAIRY LEGS- THAT FOR YOU MAKE IT A ISSUE. I may not shave when I am alone,but if I go to dates or whatever – I do pull my hair out – makes ME feel better and more beautiful.
Hey,imagine another thing – would you feel attracted to your boyfriend,if he consistently farts in your face..? I can tell you that as much as I could “love” my man,if he is Inconsiderate and farts or burbs in my face constantly and does Not take any notice from my ask him to stop this ,because is Revolting thing to do in public… than I will not be attracted to him either and will slowly poison our connection and all,because he would be totally Inconsiderate to me and totally Uncompromising too…
Like some one said above – Just bloody plack your hairs and do not be Lazy.To small of a price to pay for Happy relationship.,Because here is you being inconsiderate…also stubborn and Not feminine.
OMG – Isobel… seriously? Like Mark said, you CANNOT logic away basic human likes and dislikes. My guess is that if she had not been shaving when they met, then they would not be at this place now. I get your argument about compromise and acceptance but some things are more instinctual than that. Having him compromise and accept is just going to eat away at him. Having him shave his legs may show him it’s a PITA to do but then, what sacrifices does he make for her?
Given where she’s coming from, I’ll go out on a limb and say they should separate too… but not for the reasons given in the comments. For me, with my partner, if something as trivial as hairy legs could cause her to send an email to Evan, then there are bigger issues. It’s been twisted from “I don’t want the hassle of shaving my legs” to “he doesn’t unconditional love and accept me”… yeah right. I’m sure he still loves her, he’s just turned off by the hairy legs and yes, sex is an important part of a relationship and gee…let’s throw that out the window because I don’t want to spend 10 minutes twice a week shaving my legs.
Sigh… he should leave her. there’s give and take in all relationships and this is an asinine one. For her, it’s an inconvenience, for him it’s having lessened attraction to his possible true love. For her, it’s a chore. For him, it’s a gut reaction. If she’s turned off because he’s gained weight then she should discuss and he should take action on that… otherwise the same issue – he doesn’t care enough to look his best for his partner *when it matters* and *when it’s within reason* (ie. don’t ask your partner to get DD implants – that’s your problem).
I will never understand how people can let their egos ruin otherwise perfect relationships….
I agree with you, but I really wish more regular, average (beta) guys would take more effort in maintaining their appearances for their women. Women have eyes, too!
Pat – I agree completely! The whole alpha/beta mindset got me thinking about what traits make for a good partner and I guess that’s what Evan advocates here – with a lot of common sense thrown in :-). As opposed to holding out for the alpha or hoping to find a good enough beta (and I’m talking both on the male and female side here), I think you look for:
– someone who has self-confidence but is not arrogant or dismissive
– is willing to continually work at the relationship but not obsess about it
– is willing to compromise but also maintain their boundaries
– maintains their own life and interests but shares their life with you without losing themselves
i’m sure there’s a ton more… you just got me thinking about the true qualities of a good partner and how it straddles the alpha/beta terminology.
I didn’t really mean to go into alpha/beta territory. I just meant that “regular guys” can stand to work on their appearance a little, too. Many of my friends and I like “regular” guys with all the qualities you’ve mentioned, but they neglect to physically maintain themselves, while we women bend over backwards to maintain ourselves. We really do have eyes! We really do use them! We’d love to see our men hit the gym, dress a little nicer, get a more modern haircut, etc. I’m not really sure why so many men neglect that, but implicitly expect it of us.
The reason why I said “beta” is to contrast “alpha” guys, who already actively work on their physical attractiveness (as well as their other attributes). They usually know how to dress themselves and work out, etc.
Beta/Alpha males is determined by women not by what they do. Also an so called alpha male is disposable, I would never want to be the so called alpha male.
You’re right and you’re wrong. Not being attracted to hairy legs is a gut reaction for most men. However it isn’t instinctual. It’s a result of socialization that sets an expectation that women will have shaved legs. It wasn’t commonplace for women to shave until the early 20th century (maybe late 19th). Prior to that, it was perfectly normal for women to be hairy and men weren’t turned off by hair. However, in current times many guys are turned off by body hair on women.
Well, admittedly, a person’s sexual preferences/expectations being influenced by socialization can be considered instinctual to a point. However, the issue of hairy legs on women being a turn off in and of itself isn’t instinctual. If the social norms were reversed (smooth legs for men and hairy for women) than Kayla’s boyfriend would most likely be ‘instinctively’ turned off if she shaved her legs.
people in the middle east and Mediterranean have been practicing body hair removal for centuries, even if the Gilette corporation wasn’t around.
i don’t usually posts, most lurk here, but this post is beyond ridiculous. Seriously?? Contemplating breaking up with a great guy because she doesn’t want to bother with some self-grooming ? And why stop at legs, if that’s the question (to groom or not to groom?) How about makeup, deodorant, etc? Those are also things you do to keep being attractive…. on the other hand, this question could have ONLY come from a 25-year old ,who really doesnt know (yet) what’s important in relationship and what’s not. Also, being a foreigner, I have a personal perspective on this: a question like that would have NEVER come from a European woman, because taking Care of your body and looking attractive is as implied as brushing your teeth daily.
To be clear, her boyfriend is also overweight, but the OP has accepted that as part of the package. At 25, she has also accepted his baldness, which is something the average 25-year-old has yet to consider amongst potential partners. I’m her age, and personally, I think she’s fairly generous with her physical standards for men.
Otherwise, she seems like an active, fit woman, who has stronger beliefs about keeping the body hair. She doesn’t sound like a lazy woman, and this is coming from someone who’s lazier about shaving her legs during the winter months. 😛 You’re making a lot of assumptions about the OP.
@LoveCoffee: what a rude and dismissive post! In case you missed it, the letter writer is a pretty young yoga instructor; she certainly takes care of her body and looks attractive. However, her beauty ideal includes unshaven legs while her boyfriend’s ideal does not. Besides, as Mike and Isobel have pointed out, in comments above, this issue is “bigger” than simply not wanting to make an effort to shave her legs.
I lived in Europe for much of my life and while I certainly didn’t find European women more appealing than those in North America. I know we’re supposed to find Vanessa Paradis’s brown, ill-spaced teeth; subsisting on cigarettes and black coffee to keep off the pounds; all the plastic surgery (italy and greece have both far surpassed any country in the Americas ~ yes, even Venezuela! ~ for per capita cosmetic procedures) the epitome of chic and sophistication. Funny: the divorce rate is no lower in Europe than in the US so clearly all the plucking and primping and desperation doesn’t lead to happier couplings than in places where women feel less pressure to conform to a uniform standard of “taking care of your body” and “looking attractive.”
Wonderful comment.
@LoveCoffee, As I read your post, I could feel the rage rise up inside me,your sexist and very much ‘Programmed’ Barbie doll aesthetics which you put apon a woman is just disgusting.I am a dark haired Spanish woman for 31 years old, I have been in a committed RESPECTFUL relationship for the last 5 years.I never shave my armpits,I shave my legs once a week, I have hair on other parts of my body which is visible, but I guess I am lucky to be in a mutually loving relationship,highly sexually fulfilling and I have never had an partners impose their sexist standards of beauty apon me, because I am me, we are all unique,beautiful and sexy in our own ways.Please get out of here if you are trying to make a huge generalisation upon Mediterranean woman because you are wrong,lets see some stats for that?I am stunned by the shallowness…….maybe you should leave that book alone,and get back in the kitchen.
I completely disagree! I’m French and have lived in the US for many years. I can tell you that disgust towards bodily manifestations is much stronger in America. Hair, smells,… Everything has to be tamed and groomed.
I have never shaved my legs in my life. It’s never ever been a problem for any man I’ve been with.. Admittedly, I’m blonde-ish so it helps I guess.
But I’m so surprised you say that! You must be eastern European. 😉
I’m actually surprised how some women can create an issue out of nowhere. As a girl myself I can tell fury legs and armpits are gross and getting sweatty and smelly the way faster. Go and do laser if it’s such a concern for you or become a lonely cave woman, whatever suits you better
I am an Ameriacan woman,born in Europe and I believe grooming is extremely important not
only to attract a man, but to keep him as well for many years. Divorce often happens when
women let themselves go – putting weight on, not shaving, not dressing and keeping them-
selves pretty for their men and MEN ARE VISUAL. I personally would never accept a man
with facial hair, facial hair is not just a turn -off for me, it makes me extremely nauseated to
a point of vomiting, if a man with facial hair approaches me. So I completely understand
where the boyfriend is coming from. As Evan said wisely it is a small price to pay to keep
such a great man. Also I would recommend waxing. I’ve been doing it for many years every
40 days and the hair grows very thin.
I think a woman can be feminine with shaved or unshaved legs, but it’s a different way of being feminine, I see it as more earthy. I dont think it’s fair to tell a lover you can’t be turned off by one or the other, or equate one or the other with respecting your strength as a woman. Frankly it sounds like a power play.
All I know as a man in his 50’s legs and armpits must be shaven but I certainly prefer a full “70’s” bush. Thank god my girl has one and she has no problem keeping it. So were very happy! 🙂
It’s rather annoying when a partner starts whining about something that was never a problem before. There is something more going on here than mere leg hair – as if that matters at the end of the day.
I think the OP needs to look further into this and ask, is this just about leg hair or is something else bothering him. Why the big deal about leg hair now after 1.5 years together. Maybe there is something medical going on with the boyfriend that he doesn’t want to talk about so he’s making it all about the OP.
I am from a European country – seems to me that the removal of body hair is not as widespread or as compulsory as it seems in the US. Over the years, I’ve had phases of both shaving and non-shaving and am currently sporting a trimmed (not completely shaven) bush. Either way, it’s never been an issue with partners – some expressed a preference, but none came as far as insisting that I do or do not shave.
To me Evan slightly misses the point of the LW: in grooming, she makes an effort to change her appearance to please her partner. This is of course completely okay, but takes a lot of time if done on a continuous basis. Her partner, in turn, does not seem equally willing to put in the time to become more attractive to her. So where’s the compromise here?
My solution would be as follows: calculate the time per week LW spends on shaving. One hour, two hours, as the case may be. Then sit down with your partner and make clear to him that this is the time you willingly invest to become more attractive to him. Then ask your partner if he would be equally willing to put in a comparable amount of time per week to become more attractive to her, for example by joining a gym to get rid of his paunch.
See how he reacts. If he refuses outright, it seems to me that he is not a man to go the extra mile to please his partner, while expecting her to do just that.
Extremely reasonable suggestion. Also I see red flags in the letter which have nothing to do with body hair. “He told me recently he doesn’t even like cuddling anymore because he can feel the hair. Yet he is still happy to accept oral sex from me…:
Why would any self-respecting woman perform oral sex on a man who proclaims not to be attracted to her and won’t even cuddle?
BTW I happen to be a European, and have lived and
worked in several EU countries (UK, Germany, Italy, Sweden, Denmark France). Only in Italy and France do women regularly shave or otherwise eliminate leg hair. In other countries quite a few of them only do so in the summer or for a seaside holiday.
Exactly! He can’t stand to be near her hairy legs unless he’s getting a blow job. Wow! Poster is young and has a lot of growing and life to live obviously. I’ve always been a strong believer in living and let live and who you are in your 20s and who you are in your 50s can be two entirely different people. Just follow your heart and instincts.
It takes 3-5 minutes…in the shower, twice a week..That’s it. If the OP doesn’t want to invest 10 minutes a week.. Then maybe she should just move on..
I love my bf to bits but honestly if he starts showing up on dates now wearing a full face of makeup I would be turned off too. Yes, who says makeup is for women only? And if all the eyeliner, lipstick and mascara make him feel empowered then all the power to him, but that doesn’t mean I won’t be turned off by that. Many men feel the same about women with hairy legs. Just shave/ wax/ pluck already girl.
I think you hit the nail on the head with “if he starts showing up”…thats where the issue seems to lie to me.
Has the OP always (since they met, at least) gone unshaven for so long? From the letter, it seems like she used to only do the “bear winter”, if you will. If he could deal with that, then isnt that the compromise right there? Stick with your whole “not gonna shave over winter” schtick, and shave the other 6mos of the year.
If you (the OP) started the relationship with non-hairy legs/armpits, then YOU’RE the one who changed the stakes, and I dont think that’s fair to say he’s unloving and uncompromising when he didnt think he was dating an au naturel lady to begin with.
Most people change in a relationship. Some get fatter, some skinnier, everyone gets wrinkles, white hair, people age, etc.
If someone isn’t attracted to the one they LOVE anymore only because the person is… an adult, and just like any other adult they have body hair… they aren’t worth it. Even less when said person IS A HAIRY PERSON HIMSELF and also won’t shave for his partner… while also being fat and balding.
They will dump you if you get sick one day and you can’t shave. They will dump you if you get cancer and your hair fall off.
So you are also sexist. If you like make-up and wear it, nothing wrong with your man wearing it as well. 😉
And why should she shave if HE doesn’t want to dot he same for her? Women are the only ones who should give now? Maybe in country it’s like that…?
She can choose to leave the relationship over the issue of hairy legs (how dark and thick is it))? But before that, she should get a better idea on how much the next guys she meets to date will also be turned off by that.
I lasered it all off: BEST. IDEA. EVER !!
Have him pay for the laser: you will look perfect forever, he pays the bill, everyone is happy !
As a part time stripper who often works with very hairy legs and armpits as well as bushy pubic hair, I must say that I bank out every night I work no matter what condition my body hair is in. I’ve had only one guy ever say anything negative about it and I was like dude, there’s a million hairless girls in here, go get one of them! As soon as I walked away, he was begging for me to come back.
That being said, my boyfriend prefers a certain amount of hairlessness. I go through phases where I’ll shave for a couple months then stop for like four to six months. I shave for him on special occasions or to surprise him. But if he couldn’t handle my penchant for my body hair? I’d dump him because my body hair is part of my personality and there are PLENTY of guys who don’t give two shits.
Dude. Cut a deal. You get your business sugared twice a month if he pays for it and agrees to lose x number of pounds/work out regularly/stop eating sardines/ fix whatever you find gross about him (and don’t act like there’s nothing, we’re all a little gross).
If you can’t get rid of a conflict, trade it in for a step forward.
Wow, a lot of people getting into the LW’s business. Very judgmental over someone you don’t even know.
Here’s my take, which I don’t think anyone else has considered: people evolve and change, especially in their 20s. LW, if letting your body hair grow makes you feel empowered and good about yourself and your BF doesn’t like it, then it sounds to me like you outgrew him. Your comment about his appearance is kind of giving that away too. And I know the feeling of accepting someone 100% and yet being judged and picked at. These people seem to think that because you aren’t complaining, they must be perfect.
Chewbacca, would you be OK if your BF decided he wanted to grow out his beard like the guys in ZZ Top?
She accepts even his fat belly and the balding. And he is ALSO a chewbacca and won’t shave for her as well, ahahaha! He has nothing to complain about, she at least is young and fit.
Isobel, if the guy actually loved you, he’d accept you with hairy legs. Let me remind you that hundreds if not thousands of years ago, people fell in love, and reproduced with women who had hairy legs…
In addition if someday you guys were stranded alone on an island do you think you boyfriend (not having an option of finding another woman or screwing a monkey) would mind you having hairy less. No way. He’d GLADLY have sex with you with your hair legs, underarms and whatever else.
However final decision is up to you. It would be a small compromise for me to make however…it starts with hairy legs and ends with him requiring you to do OTHER things to make you happy, and then it might just never stop.
“Let me remind you that hundreds if not thousands of years ago, people fell in love, and reproduced with women who had hairy legs…”
Not to nitpick or be rude, but the above statement is not entirely true. There is evidence to support that humans have actually been removing body hair for many thousands of years. Scissors were likely invented 4000 to 5000 thousands of years ago. Also, when these were not available, humans were known to use rocks and seashells to cut or scrub unwanted hair off the body. So chances are that hairless legs have been preferred on women for longer than the modern industrial period of the last few hundred years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scissors#History
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmetics_in_Ancient_Rome#Skincare
Dan,exactly: Humans. BOTH sexes.
Shaving has been around for ages, and both used to want to look good. Not just a bunch of entitled hairy dudes expecting grown up women not to be hairy anywhere like in many/most cultures right now.
“Though when I asked him to shave his legs for a month just to see what it was like, he refused.” This made me laugh. She asked her (presumably beardless) 34 year old boyfriend, who has had to shave his face on a daily basis since he was a teenager to be well groomed, to shave his legs for a month so he’ll know what a pain it is to have to shave regularly?! Look, women shaving is not “silly or sexist.” It is about maintaining male/female polarity to stimulate attraction. The more masculine we perceive a man to be, the more we are attracted to him, and vice versa. So let’s turn this around. What if the OP’s boyfriend decided to start wearing lacy, sexy, women’s underwear. Just because it feels so good, and helps him get in touch with his feminine side, which he likes. Women can wear underwear designed to look like a man’s by designers like Calvin Klein. So isn’t it sexist that men can’t wear feminine underwear, he argues? But the sight of her man in women’s underwear demasculinizes him in her eyes, and turns her off. She tries to ignore it and not let it bother her, but she finds that when they are making out on the couch, just the knowledge that she is soon going to be faced with his pink bikini-style underwear with little bows on it is really affecting her feelings of attraction for him. He doesn’t understand why she isn’t more supportive, so he asks her to wear men’s boxers for a month to see what it is like. She refuses. The point of this reversal is to highlight that both men and women can behave in ways that either strengthen or decrease their partner’s feelings of attraction for them. If it is a great relationship otherwise, then don’t rock the boat. My personal philosophy is that you can never get more than 85% of what you want in a relationship. Don’t wreck an 85% relationship trying to get to 100%. It doesn’t exist. You may well find yourself sliding down to a relationship that only gives you 60% of what you want. The OP needs to focus far more on being grateful for what her apparently great boyfriend gives her. From that place of gratitude she can hopefully happily make the small sacrifice of shaving her legs for him. Isn’t a great sex life worth that small gesture on her part? Taking ideological stands like this against the patriarchy won’t keep a gal warm at night. It’s cutting off your nose to spite your face. Save your feminist battles for things that really matter – equal pay for work of equal value, domestic violence, sexual harassment in the work place, etc. Then be grateful you’ve got a great guy to come home to.
What she said…
A sane voice at last!
Great analogy! Very well put!
So many contradictions it;s bizarre.
“She asked her (presumably beardless) 34 year old boyfriend, who has had to shave his face on a daily basis since he was a teenager to be well groomed”
You can’t assume he is beardless. And men are NOT expected to be beardless. Beard is socially acceptable. Unlike women with mustaches… and it seems that she shaves hers, if not he would be complaining as well, it seems. So even if he is indeed beardless, they would be even if she doesn’t have a mustache as well.
“Look, women shaving is not “silly or sexist.””
No, only the double standard when it comes to body hair that is sexist. Hairy men expecting women to have no body hair is way too hypocritical.
“So isn’t it sexist that men can’t wear feminine underwear, he argues?”
Yes, it IS sexist that men are deemed “silly” for wearing “feminine” underwear, and women “butch” for wearing “masculine” underwear. No one said otherwise.
The point of the discussion is body hair. Both sexes have it. Most women would NEVER dump their men for being adults; adults have body hair. That is both masculine and feminine. Nor would they dump them for shaving, as men are much more than body hair. That men would not accept a woman’s adulthood is wrong in all ways.
“The OP needs to focus far more on being grateful for what her apparently great boyfriend gives her.”
Like, not even shave the exact same part of the body he wants her to shave? His fatness and balding? Why can’t he be grateful he has a young, fit woman who accepts who he is with all of his flaws? He is the one who is lucky.
Don’t forget that most of what we think is considered feminine or masculine is because society,media and consumerism made you by mentally and emotionally conditioning you to think that how it is, it is created to manipulate you into doing what they want you do and believe, and spend on what they want you to spend money on.
Not true. Men and women’s brains work differently as proven by science. Google is your friend. Society, consumerism, media, etc…have some influence, but not as much as you think. In fact, we drive those things, and when they deviate from what we want, we reject it. If what you thought was true, society would be much different, because the media has been trying to sell is.on many ideas that we have not bought into for decades.
Have you tried the Intuition brand razor? It is the razor where the blade has soap surrounding the blade part so no shaving cream or hassle is necessary. All you need is water so I do it quickly in the shower. I’m pretty lazy too so it’s perfect for me. The blades are a bit expensive but it gives you a smooth shave and, even when done very carefully (which is necessary for me because I’m a little clumsy hehe) it takes about 2 minutes, tops. It’s EXTREMELY easy and might help your situation.
This is not about body hair. This is about her feeling that his acceptance of her is conditional based upon her appearance and feeds into what appears to be a belief that the real her is not good enough, that she has to conform to societal expectations to be found attractive – when actually there are plenty of guys that aren’t bothered by body hair and would accept the natural version of her. From her comments “he is overweight, average height and balding” it is clear that she feels that she made compromises for him with an unconscious expectation that he would do the same for her. I would say that on some level, despite stating that she looks “pretty fab” she feels that she is limited in some way and therefore settled for a guy that she wasn’t totally attracted to and maybe even sensed that she was superior to in some ways. This maybe gave her a feeling of control and safety, like he would be grateful that someone like her would be in a relationship with someone like him and thus he wouldn’t leave her (maybe she has some abandonment/self-esteem issues she needs to address). However, when this guy, who she knows deep down isn’t on her “level” is looking down on HER, her ego takes a blow and she feels hurt and rejected and maybe even concludes that if even this guy, who is not as attractive as she is, is looking down on her, there MUST be something wrong with *her*. She describes him as “sensitive, kind and caring”, yet his actions are insensitive, unkind and definitely not very caring. She also said that he likes to be the “man” in the relationship. Is that code for he likes to call the shots and be in a more powerful position? That doesn’t sound like someone who wants an equal relationship or that really respects women all that much. He appears to think that being a man = being better than woman. This is echoed in his degrading treatment of someone he supposedly loves I.e. allowing her to perform oral sex upon him, without feeling the need to show any care, love or respect for her needs or feelings. It is also shown in his expectation that she shave/wax her legs for him, rather than for herself and also in his withdrawal of affection and care when she didn’t shave her legs. She states that they have shared interests, which may make her think that they share values but it is clear on quite a big issue – women’s rights – that they don’t.
Feminism is clearly something that Kayla values. She is having to go against these values to remain in this relationship and its breeding resentment. Relationships often require a little compromise but this situation is entirely one sided, with her being expected to change herself to suit his tastes.
Ah – I was with Susannah for about the first 70% of her post. I agree that it sounds like she has some insecurity issues and needs to be reassured that he will love her no matter what… sound like BPD anyone? If we’re going to read deep into their psyches I’m sure we can dredge up all kinds misogynistic tendencies and rampant feminism theories. However, Susannah and I split when we get to male control issues. Men tend to be pretty straight-forward about things and maybe he just doesn’t find hairy legs attractive. No deep-seated male dominance issues, no control issues. Maybe he loves her very much and is worried that he’s losing physical attraction for her – go back and read the first paragraph again. The harsh reality is that physical attraction is part of a relationship along with commitment, honesty, compromise, and love. You can make your own choices on the relative importance of each of those but if one is too far out of whack, it’s not going to work. I would think that if it was a controlling issue, it would have cropped up in other areas as well and that doesn’t sound like the case.
As for his physical appearance, we don’t know that she’s actually confronted him with that issue – sounds like he thinks she’s ok with it (as opposed to “accepting” it).
Maybe I’m wrong… who knows… but being stubborn and not being willing to compromise is the fastest way for resentment and bitterness to fester and destroy what sounds like in all other aspects a pretty good relationship. Hopefully they’ll at least get a counselor who can help them discover the bigger issues… or she can end up regaling her friends with the stories of her controlling misogynistic ex while her 50 cats rub up against her furry legs.
” sound like BPD anyone?”
Um, no, it doesn’t. The clinical diagnosis for BPD has nothing to do with insecurity. Nothing. I’ve heard men throw this term “bipolar” around regarding women without actually understanding it or having any professional training in diagnosing it. It seems like anytime a woman has emotions that aren’t 100% sunshine and rainbows, she MUST be bipolar. Very reminiscent of labeling women of yore as “hysterical”.
This woman does not have BPD based on anything in her letter – by all accounts, she’s a normal healthy woman, exhibiting normal, healthy free will and emotions. She clearly states in her letter that she thinks she looks “pretty fab” as a yoga instructor and thinks she looks better than her boyfriend. She thinks her boyfriend needs to get off his high horse and deal with her body in its natural state, since she extends the same courtesy to him. She’s not insecure, she’s not bipolar – she’s a healthy, normal woman. Please don’t throw psychiatric conditions around. Thank you.
I’m sorry, I quickly read your comment and automatically assumed you meant bipolar. (because I hear men throwing this term around all the time) I don’t think she has borderline personality disorder either – she doesn’t demonstrate any of the symptoms.
His dominance/control issues comes from the “he likes to be ‘the man'”. Beign a man only means being a male human. He probably thinks being a man also means having the upper hand.
“or she can end up regaling her friends with the stories of her controlling misogynistic ex while her 50 cats rub up against her furry legs”
Indeed, being single and having cats is much better than staying with a misogynistic man, even though you believe women should think otherwise. There’s nothing wrong with a woman being single; in fact, most women will only have a better life that way.
I don’t know how the OP doesn’t want to shave. I would be so irritated with hair on my legs, but I guess that’s just me. If you have an otherwise great guy, then get over it and shave. I think it would be the same if the OP gained a lot of weight. Despite her having said that it wouldn’t be an issue, that’s just how sexual attraction works. I think that’s a petty thing to get so upset over. It doesn’t cost enough money to really complain about either. In the famous words of Drake,(lol) the grass isn’t always greener on the other side, it’s green where you water it. This won’t be the first time you have to compromise. Pick your battles wisely. This is dumb.
Maybe her hair is relatively thin or sparse. Maybe she just doesn’t get why it’s that big of a deal when she’s not even that hairy to begin with.
I don’t think this person has borderline personality disorder because she feels hurt and rejected by this mans uncaring, insensitive behaviour. compromise can only be made to a certain point, but what compromises is he making for the sake of their relationship – it all appears to be one sided, with the expectation that it is HER role to do the changing, whilst he is free to be himself she is expected to conform to his suit his taste.
At what point do you draw a line and say “here I am, this is me either accept me or move on because I’m not changing for you”. This man appears to me to be quite emotionally unavailable, using stupid superficial reasons for doing a 180 degree turn on a relationship – emotionally disengaging. behaving in a hurtful, cruel manner whilst treating her in a degrading manner AND making her feel that its HER fault!
Not accepting someone for who they are IS controlling. It is disrespectful to them. You either accept the whole package or move along and find someone who is a better fit. I sincerely doubt that a 25 year old, “pretty fab”, yoga instructor would have any trouble finding a guy with a little more depth, who is willing to accept her in her entirety. Whilst I think a 34 year old average, overweight, balding man might find it a little more difficult.
Exactly. I’m not really sure why Mike is trying to diagnose OP with a personality disorder, when she sounds perfectly healthy (I really hate when guys start labeling women with psych conditions when they exert a little free will – lol). It actually takes a pretty healthy self esteem to say, “Forget your feelings or society’s expectations of me – I’m not shaving my legs for anyone!”
She sounds annoyed her boyfriend isn’t as accepting of her “pretty fab” body in it’s natural state, when she is accepting his. I don’t think it’s unfair for her to feel this way. I agree with you – she could probably do much better. Maybe she isn’t attracted to him enough to feel compelled to shave her legs for him. And maybe if he were more in shape (like her) or more accepting of her body, she might be more interested in maintaining his attraction to her.
Yes, I don’t think that she has any personality disorders at all. She seems like a normal 25 yr old woman who is exploring life. She seems pretty typical and I am sure will continue to grow and learn along the way.
First world problem.
If you shaved to attract him…shouldn’t you shave to keep him?
Wax several times then buy epilador. Like an electric razor but tweezes hairs out. lasts longer than shaving. Costs less than laser. eventually less hair grows back.
Evan is right….chemistry is tricky.
Physical attraction can’t be forced unfortunately. If she was sexually attracted to a pot bellied balding guy, then that is how she is wired. If now she isn’t, then she’s just evolving, and nothing wrong with that. And the same goes for him. If he can’t get an erection when gliding his hands on her hairy legs, then that is how he is wired.
Maybe she should end this and find someone who is OK with her hairy legs, but there will always be something else the next guy will not be OK with. And he needs to realize the same. He may find someone with always-smooth legs but maybe she just smells of stale coffee all the time. Who knows.
If they are 85% happy with each other, it would be stupid to argue over dumb crap like this. He should hit the gym and she needs to keep shaving – that is called “working” at a relationship.
This issue is all due to societal expectations. For example, in Indonesia where I grew up, women are not expected to have hairless legs and armpits.Although the younger generation do shave, the men there won’t be grossed out if you have hairy legs or armpits. Though girls there are a lot less hairy, and some are naturally hairless.
if the OP feels very strongly against shaving or other forms of body hair removal, and if it is really that deep-rooted to her core values, then just break up and find a man who is willing to accept her, body hair and all!
@Jennie
I think everyone is well aware that this is due to societal expectations and that different societies have different norms. You mentioned Indonesia and women not being expected to have hairless legs and arms. The only interesting thing about that is that Indonesia and the U.S. have different societal norms and that the U.S. isn’t Indonesia. Anyone who lives outside societal norms is going to get push back from society, you only get to decide your actions, you don’t get to decide whether or not people like you. Indonesia is looking for foreign professionals to come to their country and work, she could easily go their. She might like not having to shaving there, all well and good, until she’s subject to all the other societal norms in Indonesia, many of which she might not like. Societies are an amalgamation of behaviors not a singular behavior. That’s the price of participating in society. Want other people to like you? You have to do things other people like and all that want to play are subject to it.
I don’t know how he is attacking her core values. What possible core values stem from shabing your legs? I think she’s misunderstanding him. He prefers shaved legs. I don’t think that makes him such a terrible person. I’m a woman, and I would find it weird. Though it sounds to me like the OP recognizes she’s breaking somewhat of a societal norm because she said she used to only shave 6 months out of the year when she had to. Now, it seems like she just doesn’t want to do it because she would have to swallow her pride and ‘give in’ to her boyfriend. That’s one way of looking at it-when you’re young. OR, she could just do this small favor for her boyfriend, improve her sex life and overall connection with her boyfriend. If only she knew all the OTHER things people do to improve their sex lives when they age. I think that if she genuinely feels attacked on a personal level and wants to leave him then she should. He will have no problem finding a woman that will shave her legs. (Which btw it sounds like the OP is too lazy to do-sorry) Also, look into the future when she accepts a date with someone new. He asks, what happened to your last relationship, if you don’t mind my asking?-In the stage where sexual attraction dominates; I seriously doubt a new prospect is going to be understanding of her plight.
OP,
Communicate with your man and strike a deal to make both parties feel happy and empowered. Just like what was mentioned above you shave and he lose the potbelly. Win-win situation. Goodluck! Nic~
My last two bfs manscaped. Kept their pubic areas trimmed. I liked that 🙂 Current bf is au naturel. I don’t mind it. But if he started wearing women’s underwear or makeup, I’d be history if I couldn’t talk him back to being his natural hairy self in men’s underwear.
Even as a woman, when I’ve seen other women’s hairy legs and armpits, I think it just looks unkempt. Nothing is grosser than hairy legs in panty hose. I’ve seen this and the woman had a fabulous bod.
I don’t blame the guy for feeling less attracted. The LW is making an issue where none existed before. I’d hazard a guess that this 34 yo guy pays for everything, which is why she doesn’t want to leave him, overweight, balding, and all.
Maybe she’d understand how he feels if all of a sudden he stopped paying for the stuff that he’s been paying for, and she loses her attraction for him.
I don’t mean to be cynical, but LW is picking the wrong battle to fight. Leave or shave. Why is that such a difficult decision? Don’t get it.
I’ve seen hairy legs under pantihose on a fabulous bod. The catch: her boyfriend liked it like that. And she enjoyed pleasing him. It worked for them, though it would have driven me insane.
OP needs a bf like that, then 🙂
I’m sure that there are plenty of guys out there that like the earthy-crunchy girl she wants to be. But those guys are usually penniless. Hence she wants her man to change than for herself to make a small sacrifice. Shaving is not a big deal. I really don’t get why she’s made it such an issue.
He is the ones who is making it such an issue, not her.
This is a hairy situation!
Luckily, hair doesn’t grow on my legs for some reason. So I dont have that problem naturally.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with preferences. I would do it for my man if he asked and it was otherwise a good and healthy relationship. In fact, let him pitch in for the laser treatments.:)
Two things struck me about this.
1. At my 2 year old son’s playgroup the other day, I noticed more than one of the mums had quite hariy legs. We were all sitting on the floor so legs were in the line of sight. I suspect it’s simply a time to groom issue – when juggling caring for 2-3 kids under 3 or 4 years of age, most women will spend substantially less time grooming themselves. Research illustrates this (amazing what common sense things people do studies on!). Based on our conversations, their husbands are jumping at every chance for sex of any type on offer, hairy legs or no, because sexual opportunities fade quite fast after kids come along. So the practical reality of life is that a long-term partner adjusts their mindset about their partner’s grooming, at different stages of the life cycle. Another example would be physical illness, or depression. I have no doubt that as their children grow and the women have more minutes a day to spend on themselves, hairy legs won’t be so common. Finding a partner with the flexibility to navigate different life stages is an advantage.
2. At 25, many women are still blindly following what society e.g. the media, inform them women should look like. The OP has begun to reject this. I suspect she’s going to end up as an older woman with particularly strong opinions on female grooming and beauty etc. In any case, now, not shaving is very psychologically important to her; it’s not a little thing, or just a few minutes, to her. Her boyfriend differs on this. Given he isn’t having sex with her because of this one issue, and the future may see her become even more strident regarding grooming, he may not be the best long term partner for her. In future she’ll probably start relationships knowing this about herself and that will automatically cull men for whom smooth legs are really important.
I wish there was a like button I could push right now
Personally, I think it’s all a matter of degree. We all make concessions with our grooming to be acceptable to other people and ourselves… brushing our hair and our teeth, wearing deodorant, basic grooming. It just depends where you draw the line.
I have a busy life and sometimes I just want to sink into the bath for some R&R at the end of a long day and not have it turn into a chore of shaving my legs. But at the same time, I realise that the man I am with, like most men, prefers smooth legs. So I choose one day a week, usually a weekend day when I am not otherwise stressed, and set aside 20 minutes for this. It’s not a very big deal. Then again, he has never chastised me or refused to have sex with me because my legs have been unshaved. Quite frankly, I think the OP is asking a bit much. 6 months without shaving? Not cool. This is something that can be compromised on.
The OP writes: “He’s average height, a bit overweight and balding. But I chose to get over those things because he’s an otherwise great guy and I’m still sexually attracted to him as a whole …Yet he can’t get over a bit of body hair… ” I know someone who has always loved eating cooked spinach. On the other hand, eating cooked spinach has always made me gag. I am repulsed by the sight of it, the texture of it in my mouth, and the taste of it. Why is that? Why do two human beings have such completely different responses to a sensory experience? Can I “get over” my aversion to cooked spinach? Not in a million years. But life would be so much easier if we all could always “get over” the little and not so little things that prevent us from being attracted to someone. So why can’t the OP’s boyfriend just “get over” a bit of body hair? He can’t because he can’t. It’s the way he is wired. Why does someone love the color blue and dislike the color red? Why does one person love ballroom dancing and another person hate it? Why can one person listen to rap music for hours and another person be unable to stand even five minutes of it? We can drive ourselves crazy with asking why. It just is. Some preferences can and will change over time and in different circumstances. But we have to recognize and accept that there are some things we will always dislike. No matter how much we may want to change, or try to change, certain preferences for another person, there are situations where it simply can’t be done. It’s not a question of unwillingness, i.e. won’t change it, but ability, i.e. can’t change it.
You’re my hero.
I have only read about half the comments so I don’t know whether this has been said, but some guys LOVE hairy hippie girls. Like, it’s a porn genre. She should be who she is and find some groovy earthy guy who is into it. Lots of fish in the sea when you’re a 25-year old hottie.
Once again, Evan gives terrible advice. “That’s right – be a good girl, suck it up and go along with the status-quo. Otherwise, men won’t love you.” What a bunch of nonsense! There are plenty of enlightened, feminist men who are a-ok with women not shaving their legs. So, find one of those men. Dump anyone else. There is no reason for a woman to settle for a man who gets squicked out by the fact that adult women have body hair.
If he can’t accept the reality that women have body hair too, then he’s a big baby with unrealistic expectations. She needs to find someone more mature and more accepting-of-reality. Yes, it’s much easier to dump an otherwise-perfect guy than it is to spend the rest of your life with a man who feels grossed-out by the physical features of an adult human body. If he can’t accept your body as it naturally is, then he’s not a perfect guy. To me, this would be a red flag.
Evan, you seem to have this idea that the women reading this blog are just-so-terribly-desperate that anyone should do, and they should be willing to make compromises, demand less and settle for less in order to nab a guy. After all, nobody wants an older woman! Older women should happily accept whatever they can manage to get. This advice is horribly insulting to women, and it also doesn’t match up with what I see in actual reality with my own two eyes.
Evan, our culture of catering-to-male-whims can be fought. It should be fought. Good people who claim to have womens’ best-interests at heart should actively fight it. “Fighting the patriarchy” will not lessen a woman’s chances of finding a good mate because there are plenty of men do care about what’s best for women. If a man is not enlightened enough to “fight the patriarchy” side-by-side with his partner, then he’s actually not really worth dating at all.
Why are you telling women to shave their legs and go-along-with-the-status quo in order to nab loser guys who aren’t even worth their time? Women need to ditch these losers.
What you seem blind to Emily, is that when you’re espousing that men are wrong/immature for not accepting women’s choices (e.g., body hair vs no body hair) you’re implicitly stating that women are entitled to do and want whatever she wants, but men are not entitled to want whatever he wants. Using your logic that means you’re just as immature as the men you judge.
OP changed the game once she “caught” her man. Now she’s expecting him to go along with whatever she wants and he has no say. Or rather, per you, whatever he says that’s counter to what she wants makes him an immature man.
You’re wrong. Once someone changes the rules, the person who didn’t agree to the rule change is not wrong or immature. They are entitled to feel angry and cheated.
If the guy dated her and made her his girlfriend when she was hairy and then she has a right to be angry because HE changed the rules after she became the gf. In this case SHE changed the rules. NO ONE should change the rules in a relationship without discussion. Especially on something that has impact on attraction.
If you dated a clean-shaven man with a full head of hair and became his girlfriend with him looking that way. And a year later he decides to shave off his eyebrows and all his body hair but grow an Amish beard, you’re saying you’ll be ok with that? I sincerly doubt it. I’ll bet you’d nag and/or withhold sex until he shaved again and grew back his eyebrows and head hair, at the very least.
I’ve certainly done it. A bf shaved his beard. He was good looking with the beard, but kind of ugly without it (he had a weak chin which the beard hid) — so I was NOT at all attracted to him until he grew his beard back. There was little to no sex during that grow-back time.
Be real. Attraction IS visual both to men and women. There is no right or wrong to attraction. However, there is a right or wrong to changing rules mid-stream. LW is guilty of that.
We’re all mammals and we all have hair. It’s fine for OP’s bf to have a preference and to tell her that, even to make a request. But to actually refuse sex if she doesn’t shave her legs? That’s ridiculous!
My BF grew a beard about a year ago. I don’t like it, never have (he was clean shaven for years). I told him I’d rather he not grow a beard, but it’s his body and he can do what he wants. I still kiss him, cuddle him, have sex with him.
In a real long term relationship, looks are going to change to some agree. Look at a picture of Meryl Streep when she was 25. She looks different now–still gorgeous, but different. A guy who refuses sex over unshaved legs is not a guy who is going to accept OP as she ages.
Fiona – with all due respect I must disagree with your statement
“A guy who refuses sex over unshaved legs is not a guy who is going to accept OP as she ages.”
Aging is a natural gradual process, not an intentional act. Both parties are gradually aging, so after 40 years of marriage, even if one is younger and one has aged more slowly, they are both going to look considerably older than they did as newlyweds.
This hairy leg thing from the OP, seems more about her digging in her heels and thumbing her nose at society and gender conventions. If she was hairy legged when she met him that would be different, but the whole tone of her post seems to be “I am woman hear me roar” and she just wants a chorus of “You go girl !”. She talks about how she “over looked” his baldness and over weight. I somehow think she’s not quite “over looked” these things. Maybe this is her subtle “revenge”.
But comments about how leg shaving is “sexist” and she feels so empowered, just makes me think this about more than it costing too much time and money to shave her legs. Also, her request that HE shave his legs for a month sounds like a power play on her part. Gosh, I’m glad he didn’t ask her wear sexy lingerie. Would she tell HIM to wear high heels and a garter belt to see how HE liked it ?
This sounds like she’d rather be right than happy.
Or maybe she’s just not that into him, and by doing something that makes her “unattractive” to him, she can get him to end the relationship, or can feel justified to end relationship because he didn’t accept her as is.
I don’t think it is so much that he is “refusing” to have sex with her, but he’s no longer attracted to her. In fact, she has stated that he is repulsed by her leg hair. What if she decided it was empowering to stop wearing deodorant ? Would he be a bad guy if that turned him off and he couldn’t feel attracted ?
Yes, it is only societal conditioning that makes hairless legs and underarms sexy to men. But it is also societal conditioning that says men don’t wear make up. If a man of mine decided that he was a heterosexual cross dresser, and that it felt empowering to him, would I be wrong if I refused to make love to him with his blue eye shadow, frosted pink lips and Marilyn Monroe wig ? I couldn’t have sex with a cross dresser, not to punish him for his kink, or to be “withholding” sex, but I just would be repulsed.
I don’t fault people for not having sex with people they find repulsive, or even with someone to whom they aren’t remotely attracted .
JM2C, YMMV.
@SparklingEmerald: I’m hearing the power-play issue pop up again, but perhaps, that’s not always the case. Sometimes, the conflict of interest is more simple.
She embraced the idea of accepting a non-mainstream man (appearance-wise) in return for more suitable personality. “Pretty fab”, 25-year-old yoga instructors don’t need to date balding, overweight men. Lots of fit, young men want to date her type.
“All of a sudden the man who told [the OP] he couldn’t stop loving [her] even if [she] gained a hundred pounds,” stopped short at her furry legs.
Wanting a partner to return that same opinion is not unreasonable. She’s finding out his physical tastes are more conventional than desired, and she’s disappointed.
But I also think the OP’s post calls for more understanding that attraction cannot be FORCED. My attraction just dies at the thought of making love to overweight, balding, or very hairy men. I can’t help it, but I let all my partners know that weight & hair affects my attraction to someone. In return, they let me know what they need too. If my partner needs to loose the extra weight, I wouldn’t hesitate to join their health regimen so they don’t feel alone. So far, no problems! Win-win. I feel bad that her boyfriend left her to adjust to these standards all by herself. He doesn’t need to shave, but couldn’t he do something else towards his appearance to please her?
In a way, both Kayla and her boyfriend are right.
That’s where the OP needs to make a choice though. If she wants to date the “elusive alpha male nerd[s]”, they may be the type who needs a woman to shave their legs. But she’s not wrong in wanting someone who’s more willing to compromise, if it means her giving up something which makes her feel sexually empowered.
However, if Kayla decides to fully embrace her own vision of beauty, she does need to be more open to dating different types of personalities. Someone in her position (pretty fab, young and fit) can certainly do it. The question is though… is Kayla confident enough to present herself as a woman who believes in furry legs? That’s something only Kayla can answer.
At the bottom-line, if Kayla feels she needs to present herself as the hairless type attract the men she’s attracted to, then that’s her answer.
Gem said “25-year-old yoga instructors don’t need to date balding, overweight men. Lots of fit, young men want to date her type.”
If the pretty fab yoga instructor wasn’t attracted to a balding overweight man, she shouldn’t have gotten involved with him. She should find a fit young man, and not try to turn him into a woman. (which is what she did when she told him to shave his legs for a month) To “settle” for someone who isn’t your type, and then try to even the score by doing something to make yourself less attractive to him is unacceptable. That may not have been her initial reason for going hairy, but it shouldn’t have come as a surprise that many man are repulsed by leg or underarm hair.
He was overwieght when they met. Accept him or don’t get involved.
If she was hairy legged when they met, I would say the same about him.
SHE’s the one who changed and she’s expecting him to force himself to be attracted to a change SHE made, and a change that is almost universally unattractive to men.
People (male or female) who intentionally make changes to their appearance that are widely known to be sexual repellants should not play the victim when their partner no longer feels attracted to them.
My guess (and it’s just a guess, as I don’t know the OP) is that she’s really not that attracted to him. That she even mentioned his balding and overweight is my first clue. That she say’s she “embraced” it is my second clue. On some level she’s trying to “even the score” by making herself less attractive to see if he’ll reciprocate by “embracing” her empowered hairy self.
If she’s not attracted to a slightly overweight bald type, she should find a young fit type instead. I bet she wouldn’t DREAM of going hairy if she had the young firm stud she feels she deserves.
Something else I thought of, to him, it may have looked like she figured she “had” him, and now she could just let herself go. When a romantic partner starts neglecting their grooming that’s what it may look like to their partner.
My boyfriend is a very handsome man and if he chose to grow an Amish beard and shave his head/eyebrows, he would be less physically appealing to me. But of course I would still love him and be attracted to him. Why? Because he’s an amazing person who makes me feel amazing. It sounds like Karmic Equation is the kind of girl who only dates people for their looks. When your desire for someone is 100% rooted in their appearance — as in, there is literally NOTHING else about them that you find sexy — the relationship really won’t last long.
First I’d like to say, it takes more than 10 minutes a week for a woman to shave if she does so properly.
That being said, I agree (with some reservations) with Evan’s general conclusion (shave your legs) but disagree on how he arrived at the answer. For me it has more to do with expectations set in the relationship and not cultural norms.
Personally, I expect any partner I have to continue with the same hygienic body care routine that he participated in when we first started dating and expect most people feel the same way. For example, I strongly dislike facial hair and men who have long hair. As a result of that preference, I date clean-shaven men who keep their hair short. If I were dating a guy and he suddenly decided to stop shaving and grow his hair out, I would have a problem with that and it may result in a loss of sexual desire depending on the severity. At this juncture, I would feel like he should shave and/or get a haircut because that was the expectation set when the relationship was established.
However, if I had started dating a guy who was shaggy and/or told me from the start that he dislikes shaving and will probably stop shaving at some point and I proceeded to try to convince him to start shaving than I can’t get upset if my attempts fall flat.
I have the same opinion on the shaving legs dilemma. She entered the relationship shaving her legs so it’s not surprising he would expect that practice to continue. If she was unshaven when they entered a relationship and he then tried to convince her to shave I’d be singing a different tune. However, that isn’t the case.
All that being said, I find it silly a relationship that’s been ongoing for quite some time would end over something like this. As indicated by Evan, it’s true that the letter writer, Kayla, is potentially letting a relationship slip away over some leg hair. On the other hand, her boyfriend is doing the same thing. If the relationship ends over something as trivial as hair than I question whether it’s a relationship that’s going to last for the long haul even with smooth legs.
Wow, this seems almost like a silly reason to break-up. I mean, no one is going to find anyone that they can 100% agree on everything with. If two people cannot come to an agreement or compromise on an issue like shaving legs–what about when issues arise such as where to live, how to spend money, how many children to have, how to raise the children, in-laws and parents?? Yes, there are men out there who will not mind if their woman shaves or not–there are plenty of countries where women do not shave at all! But, as a woman in the USA, you have to consider how many men and what type of men in this country will be accepting of this? (And the truth is, some of these men who are not accepting of YOU not shaving, may be accepting of it on a foreign woman because they don’t shave where she is from, but they may not like it). Personally, I can understand that it could turn off my guy to the point of no sex,and therefore would make the effort to be attractive to him…..BUT, he seems somewhat unwilling to compromise as well–I cannot be sure if it is simply because he is truly SO turned of by the hair that he cannot help it, or he is also difficult to get along with….either one could be the case.
Relationships ARE sexual though, and I see nothing wrong with both partners indulging in the other’s sexual desires or being sexually attractive to the other–if that means wearing particular outfits, make-up styles, ambience of the room, particular bedding, candles, taking care to have soft skin( I know of women whose men have terrible hands from work and they give them special lotions and encourage them to wear work-gloves!), SHAVING…whatever 🙂
I’m amazed by how many people are getting all hung up on the time issue, while totally ignoring what seems to me like a much deeper and more important side of the situation.
For those of you who are talking about how lazy it is not to spend 10 minutes shaving your legs, did you totally miss the part where she said “not shaving has made me feel more powerful, more human, and oddly more feminine?” This isn’t just about time or laziness. This is about her feeling good in her own skin.
If feeling powerful, human and feminine in her own body, and wanting to be seen as sexy and desirable in her natural state, is more important to her than a relationship, that’s a perfectly valid stance to take. If she doesn’t want to stay in a relationship where her natural, default state is so repulsive to her partner that he won’t even cuddle her, she has every right to make that decision.
Same for men. If having a beard makes them feel manly, attractive, or whatever else it makes them feel, and if they feel like shaving is an act of removing a part of themselves that they like in order to feel artificially more acceptable, they should seek a partner who likes that aspect of them.
I think it’s all a matter of how important it is to you. If you don’t care whether you’re hairy or not, by all means, shave if (s)he wants you to. But if the state of your body has a strong effect on your emotional state, then it’s something you can’t just ignore, and shouldn’t change for a person who can’t accept it. Especially not if that person isn’t willing to do the same for you. The fact that he insists that she shave her legs forever, yet won’t do it himself for even a month, seems intensely hypocritical to me, and is not a sign of a supportive person who would meet her halfway.
If I were the OP, that’s a red flag I’d definitely keep an eye on. Where else is he making demands, but refusing to make compromises himself? If this is a pattern, then it may be a blessing in disguise that the leg issue brought it to the surface.
This is so much BS it’s making my head spin. I’m a middle eastern dude, and let me tell you, I get HAIRY! And I don’t mean stubble hairy, or the little fine hairs that grow on a woman’s thighs / calves. I’m talking, I can totally braid this ish if I wanted to.
About once a month, I trim my entire body. I’m talkin, trim my chest, shave my back and trim my manhood. Firstly, I’m doing it because I think I look better and it’s more hygienic, but I also do it because my girlfriend likes less hair from time-to-time. All these girls talking about how their legs “take forever” to shave. Try doing your WHOLE body!
This whole feminism thing has gotten out of hand. Sure I can try to find a girlfriend who doesn’t mind my hair, but to be frank, I’m willing to make the compromise to keep the person I love in my life. It’s that simple! Go shave your damn legs. Really, it’s not all that bad.
I understand a bit of where Kayla’s coming from. She wants to be herself. A few mths I ago, a guy I was dating (now my bf) requested I paint my nails—in fact, he offered to bring me to the salon, so it wouldn’t even have cost me much effort–and I said I wasn’t willing to do that. It’s not just my preference for being low-maintenance, but I’m a bit OCD and don’t want chemicals on my hands. I stuck to my preference, and I guess he accepted that since we’re exclusive now. (Btw he’s a v attractive guy, and I wish more women understood that u don’t have to try so hard to transform into Miss Conventionally-Perfect to be attractive to attractive men, but that’s a different story.)
So I semi-understand this. She feels good this way–and frankly I think more highly of her than I do of very high-maintenance women who need 10 beauty appointments a month to feel presentable.
But Evan is right when he says this is “something you did before you met him”. She says she wasn’t that consistent about it, esp in the winter, but she wasn’t this..um..fuzzy back then either, lol. I guess he feels a bit cheated. And it’s not just about the hair, but the skin tends to feel less smooth when a woman’s legs aren’t hairless. And smooth legs are nice! (to me). I know I’m one to talk when I refused to paint my nails, maybe it’s unfair, but I think she should shave her legs if she loves this man…Sorry Kayla! I really do know how u feel. :p
Twinkle, you are the one to give advice! Weren’t you the one who refused to paint your nails because you are OCD? What if the OP is also OCD and doesn’t like the smell of shaving cream or the sight of razor blades near her skin?
I think she should stick to her guns the way you did,right?
In your own words, I wish more women understood that u don’t have to try so hard to transform into Miss Conventionally-Perfect to be attractive to attractive men.
I’ve been reading all of the comments about the significance of hairy legs before and after a relationship has been established, and it’s beginning to dawn on me that this conflict has nothing at all to do with whether or not Kayla has smooth legs. Because of the lack of agreement from either of the partners, it might be that this is an excuse to slyly slip out of the relationship without actually making a definite statement about a separation, since it appears to be the one, single disagreement that has so little chance of reaching mutual accord. Perhaps Kayla’s feelings about feeling “empowered” when she stopped shaving her legs has some kind of subtle downside that is not being freely addressed. I wonder whether anyone else has some doubts about the actual cause of this problem.
This part sticks out for me . . . when the OP says this about shaving “and definitely not worth the time and money it took to keep my legs smooth.”
How often do women on this blog talk about how they want a man who will make an effort for
them ? How often do women on this blog want a man to show his interest by investing time and money in the relationship ? Since the OP says he’s an “alpha nerd” who likes to take charge and be the man, I’m guessing he is putting time, money and effort into this relationship. Not only are the hairy legs a turn off for him, but I think it must have been a blow to his psyche to know that his girlfriend thinks he is “definitely not worth the time and money”.
I really can’t cross reference every commenter in this discussion for who is dissing the man for not finding her hairy legs sexy, and for feeling hurt that she doesn’t think he’s worth the effort or money to adopt culturally normal grooming standards. But I do wonder how many of the women making her boyfriend the bad guy here, have ever whined about a man not willing to put time, effort or money into pleasing them.
I’m half Italian, so I have to shave my legs from the knees down DAILY, unless I won’t be with my boyfriend AND I’ll be wearing slacks, a long skirt or opaque tights. Razor blades aren’t THAT expensive, and in the shower the shaving thing takes less than ten minutes. I can take care of everything between my navel and knees by getting professionally waxed every 6 to 8 weeks. It’s a bit of an expense, but well worth it.
Ladies, if you want a man who will put time, money and effort into a relationship, isn’t it only fair that you respond in kind, in ways that he will appreciate ?
Nair. Just nair. I hate shaving too. My ex got over the seldom shaving thing, but that took a while. Nair and clean razors get expensive. Plus I just hate the act of doing it. I eventually told him, that instead of complaining, he could have tried to come up with solutions to my issues with shaving. Buying me Nair, or helping me put it on, or keeping me company while I do it because it’s boring as heck.
If something is important to me, I try to find solutions. If it’s not, I can learn to put up with the circumstances.
I don’t understand the problem. Just shave your legs. About a year and a half ago, I was significantly overweight. I was quite obese. So I decided to get into the habit of having a better diet and exercising more and lost the excess weight. This process is certainly harder than simply shaving once a week, I don’t see why you can’t make this small concession to make your man happy.
I personally am not attracted to women who don’t shave their legs and arms. I’m sorry, this is a negative in my book. I don’t see why, if you really loved him, it would be too much trouble to simply shave.
I’m personally getting pretty sick and tired of society telling women what they should look like and what they should be doing with there bodies. Men continue to get a free ticket in not taking care of themselves and i’ve been told by a handful of men that men age better than women! Despite the fact that when men age they go bald and look like they’re pregnant 12 months out of the year. After women give birth they are constantly pressured into loosing “the baby weight” you see it in magazines in check out counters constantly. Whats going on here is that you have a fat bald old fart telling his young fit girlfriend how he wants her to be despite of his lack of being able to take care of his physical appearance. Lets just call it for what it is here! If she loves him and wants to stay with him then they should come to a compromise and agree on both of them taking better care when it comes to their appearance. Meaning she gets rid of the hair and he hits the gym and hard! If he thinks hes above that dump the Narcissist and make a stand for women that continuously have to conform to what a man wants us to be and look like. PLUS!! For some reason it always seems to be the people who arrent in the position to judge (ugly, fat, bald, old) who are judging so let them know that !! 🙂
Men do not get a free pass. Some just think they do. I see a lot of angst and hyperbole in your post. I hope you are just venting because if this is truly how you see things, you need to look around a little more closely.
I’m personally getting pretty sick and tired of society telling women what they should look like and what they should be doing with there bodies. Men continue to get a free ticket in not taking care of themselves and i’ve been told by a handful of men that men age better than women! Despite the fact that when men age they go bald and look like they’re pregnant 12 months out of the year.
No, they don’t get a free pass. And somebody recently posted peer reviewed research that showed that about an equal number of men and women fall outside of the healthy weight guidelines. However, they were not equally distributed in the overweight and obese categories. Men were more likely to be in the overweight category while women were more likely to be in the obese category. And as for going bald, both men and women have their crosses to bear as we age. Cellulite, spider veins, thinning lips, and the list goes on.
I do agree that she can use this to get a compromise out of him. She shaves, he starts working out, and eating healthier.
If he thinks hes above that dump the Narcissist and make a stand for women that continuously have to conform to what a man wants us to be and look like.
Victim complexes aren’t very attractive. Once again, men also have to conform just as much as women do. Some just seem to be in denial over it, and often they end up with no girlfriend as a result. What men don’t have is the ability to fool the us by using make-up. That’s our advantage alone.
PLUS!! For some reason it always seems to be the people who arrent in the position to judge (ugly, fat, bald, old) who are judging so let them know that !!
All people judge, and if you think that statement you made, you need to find out why. Maybe you see it this way because the truly great looking guys are never made to judge you. Maybe the guys in your life, the men who approach you and date you, are not the cream of the crop. Maybe the best looking guys in your life are in a position where they can make comforting statements to you because they don’t have to back them up. But trust me on this, better looking men are MORE judgmental on average because they can be. Just as the same is true with us women.
I remember an example of this when those to Marines asked Justin and Mila to go to the Marine Ball with them. I thought the girl was reasonably cute, and made a comment along those lines, but a really good looking guy who was a friend of one of my boyfriend’s friends (very good looking) said, “She’s a pug.” As in the little dog that looks cute from a distance, but up close isn’t really so cute. Like or not, the better looking people are, the higher their standards of beauty typically are, which is only logical.
Really it comes down to who they tend to be able to date. If a man, through good looks or wealth, is constantly able to date women who are 9s and 10s, he will never see a woman who makes his heart do flip flops in a woman who is an 8 or below. And the same holds true for women.
Kayla is being hypocritical. Its ok for her to want an alpha male nerd, a guy with certain masculine characteristics in other words. However, it’s “sexist” if her SO wants a woman with feminine hygiene. That’s hypocrisy. Evan, I think you let her off too easy.
I’m a little surprised that nobody has commented on how extreme and a little immature it is of the boyfriend to stop being affectionate and making love to a woman he is supposed to “love” all because she has hair on her legs?? What’s up with that?
Do we not see the mans behavior as childish and immature in his reaction to her not wanting to shave her legs?? I’m quite sure he knew early on in their dating relationship that she was not a woman who shaved her legs often. He still chose to date this woman. I’m thinking there are many wonderful important and meaningful qualities she has, that not shaving her legs would overshadow those things.
Do we think this is ok how her boyfriend is reacting to her simply not doing something she doesn’t want to do? What about him compromising?
I believe this will possibly set the stage for this woman always compromising her wants, needs and desires for this man in their future.
This is part of the root of the problem of why people get divorced. One person almost always ends up being the one to concede and compromise. At some point they get tired of it. The other person begins to feel a sense of entitlement, as if they’re owed these compromises. They get comfortable and never feel the need to compromise or concede, ever. It can quickly turn into a situation where you give a person an inch or 2, and they want, and take miles.
To me this is a red flag if this guy is making this big of a deal about a woman he claims to love not shaving her legs as much as he wants her to.
Men can be too unreasonable with things like this. They have no idea what it takes, and the time, effort, and sometimes pain to look like these perfect Barbie dolls for them.
Not to mention, many women complain that their husbands/sig others don’t even notice what they do. So whats the point??
To deny a person u say u love and care about physical touch, physical love, and affection is pretty extreme and childish imo.
If I was this woman I would do some serious probing and ask this guy some direct questions like: why does this mean so much to you? What disgust you about hair on a womans legs? What if I bleached the hair so it’s not noticeable? Or to soften it?
Would you honestly throw away all that we have and what we’ve built because I have hair on my legs? What if it irritated my skin and/or gave me a rash to shave my legs, would you still insist on it? Would you not care about the consequences of me shaving my legs? She needs to determine just how deep this guys love is.
Cause if people are incapable of loving one another unconditionally to some extent, the relationship is destined for failure at some point. Because there are conditions to the love. And as soon as the conditions are not met, somebody is walking out the door.
She consciously chose to make herself unattractive to him – so he’s supposed to just “get over” his lack of attraction.
Sparkling Emerald has covered this ad-nauseam. She unilaterally changed, and expected him to just go along with it. He didn’t, so now she’s crying “he’s immature”, when the reality is more like she’s acting immaturely.
As SE said, how would she feel is he suddenly started wearing heavy makeup because “it felt more authentic” to him – would she still find him attractive and have sex with him?
This thread is heartbreaking to me. I also haven’t shaved my legs in over 20 years and I’ve never been with a man who had a problem with it. For me it’s a deeply symbolic act. It is my daily insurgency against the patriarchy, the patriarchy that dehumanizes all of us, men and women alike. The hair on my legs and under my armpits stands for liberation.
Men are “attracted” to hairless legs because they remind them of porn stars and prepubescent girls. Young girls don’t have hair on their legs and under their armpits. Grown up women do. It’s not the same as men and beards because men truly do have a widely accepted cultural choice, whereas women with hair get called unclean and ungroomed cavepeople.
Leg shaving is widely practiced and expected in our culture because SEXISM is widely practiced and expected. When our culture finally prioritizes women’s (and men’s) humanity over their objectification, hairy legs won’t matter. We women have to make the choices that challenge these assumptions in order for that to ever happen. Men have to be willing to reach for what’s beneath the hairy legs to find the human woman inside, as well as his own humanity inside, (which sexism done such a good job at taking away from him.)
Also contrary to popular belief, I believe that we can change our attractions. The culture trains us to be attracted to certain things, and we can untrain ourselves with awareness and curiosity. On the first date with my current partner I was not initially attracted to him. But he was so right on in every other way, so we hung out and got to KNOW each other, and now I’m wildly attracted to him, even though his physical description doesn’t fit my “attraction” meter.
If Kayla’s partner truly loves and is committed to being with HER, the hairy legs won’t matter. He’ll respect and honor her empowered choice and celebrate her gorgeous humanness. There’s clearly something deeper going on here, and he’s pinning it on the hairy legs. Not her job to shave them for him.
“Men are “attracted” to hairless legs because they remind them of porn stars and prepubescent girls.”
Wow, just, wow. Nice projection of your issues.
You’re the one with issues about “patriarchy” and feel a need to “rebel”. Other people just like what they like. And has been pointed out before, men and women have been shaving since the Egyptians…so long before any of this other BS.
Good luck waiting for humanity to stop objectifying the human form. It hasn’t changed since the Greeks made statues some 5000 years ago…
Jo,
The problem here isn’t hairy legs. The problem here, isn’t “average height, slightly overweight and balding”. The problem is changing the rules, after you got the relationship. That’s exactly what happened here. The guy was attractive enough for her to want a relationship with him, and want it enough to shave her legs to attract him. Now that she has him, all of a sudden, she decided it’s “empowering” not to shave her legs anymore, and unilaterally decides not to. When the guy rightly complains that SHE unilaterally changed (and apparently asked her nicely to go back to shaving her legs (oh gee, what a horrible imposition-takes what, five minutes in the shower?), THEN his “average height, balding and slightly overweight” self suddenly becomes “unattractive” to her? I call bullshit; just a convenient rationalization for acting like a spoiled brat. This girl (I refuse to dignify her immaturity and rather strident ideological feminism by referring to her as a woman; what I see, is an adolescent child having a temper tantrum because she changed the rules in the middle of the game, and it didn’t go over well), is trashing her relationship by making a great fuss over nothing; If a man can get up and shave every morning, (and if necessary, shave again in the evening, so as not to scratch his woman’s sensitive skin-I do), then she can damn well shave, wax, use depilatory creme, whatever; sounds like a fair trade-off to me).
The problem here is not hairy legs, or average, balding and slightly overweight; the problem is militant, strident, ideological feminism. Newsflash for you, Jo, that’s just plain ugly on any woman, no matter how she looks otherwise. Reminds me of the feminist crazies who slapped me for opening doors for them back in the seventies. I despise that attitude with every fiber of my being, and so do most men. I’ve read a ton of it on this blog, and now, I’m finally going to respond. I don’t dislike women, but I do dislike that kind of misandry, and I’m not shy about pointing it out when I see it.
It is one thing to want equal opportunity (if equally qualified), to want to be free from sexual harassment in the workplace, to want equal justice under the law, and an equal right to vote and hold office. I support those ideals; there’s no legitimate reason not to. However, the desire to have all the privileges of men, without the responsibilities that go with some of them, being openly contemptuous of men and their desires, expecting men to be sensitive to your every need, while you ignore theirs at your whim, trying to re-make men in the supposed perfection of your own image, and and a completely gynocentric line of thinking and behavior, is more than a bridge too far. You want a war between the sexes on that line, I can assure you that I, and I think a majority of real men (not feminized, weak, emasculated, sensitive, metrosexual, New Age “Beta Boys”), will give it to you, tooth and claw, until hell freezes over. I don’t like some of the extremism of the MRA crowd, but I’ll stand shoulder-to-shoulder with them on that one!
I suggest, that if Kayla’s behavior here is your definition of female “empowerment”, she needs to leave a relationship like hers forthwith, and go find some compliant little wuss that she can control (she can go on to the next one, after she gets bored with that). Her guy deserves better, (like a real woman who still understands how to be soft, feminine, loving, and appreciative in a relationship, instead of picking pointless fights for the sake of her overblown Uber-feminist ego!)
All good, lasting relationships involve compromise, and agreements. Neither party gets things 100% their way. That’s what this article is about.
Well said–it’s all about making compromises to make the relationship work. It’s about learning to distinguish the “small stuff” you can compromise over, and the “big stuff” you can’t.
Him being a “smart, kind, caring and dependable” man is the “big stuff” I think she should focus more on, than shaving legs. As a mid-30s woman, I can vouch that finding a guy like that gets harder as you get older (not impossible because I managed to do it, but it was a very arduous journey to find him). I just hope she doesn’t break up with him, then later regrets that she gave up a great guy over such a little thing!
He can be fat and bald but she has to be perfectly hairless? I would have walked a LONG time ago. I don’t shave and any man who doesn’t like it can lump it. When men start grooming themselves, then I’ll start. Until then, they can eff themselves.
Most men do groom themselves. They cut their hair, and shave their beards and mustaches. There are even guys who groom other body hair. But your response could be better because the issue is not tit for tat. A man shouldn’t have to shave his legs to want her to shave hers. The issue is does she want something similar in return, and will he agree to it. If my woman said she wants me to groom and area of hair, I probably would.
Also, you have to understand that in the U.S., shaved legs IS a beauty standard. Like it or not, that is true. If you are going to marry an American man, or even a Canadian, etc.. then you have to understand this. Don’t shave your legs to get the man, then act like it is an issue a few years later. The same goes for the man. If he likes wearing a beard, but she hates beards, don’t shave until you’ve been married for a few years, and then act like it isn’t fair that she doesn’t want him to grow a beard. I have no sympathy for her because I seriously doubt that she entered the relationship not knowing his preference. However, if he entered the relationship and ignored unshaved legs, then it is not right for him to make an issue of it later. it is however his right to not like unshaved legs. I can tell you that with the way we grow up with this being a beauty standard that unshaved legs literally look gross to us.
Agree with those who say this is about more than shaving. It’s about the inability to problem solve, to protect each other, to have the other’s back. His loss of attraction for her also probably has a little to more to do with her belligerent edict giving than just the hairiness alone.
A loss of attraction is a serious problem in a relationship and it should have gotten her attention right away as something to fix if she could because she wants to be desired by her partner and she wants her partner to feel happy. That’s what love is. You care about the other’s well-being and, no, attraction can not be “logicked.” If it could, we would have a very different world.
Feminism or self-actualization does not mean that your needs or whims or caprices get priority at the expense of others. It means you get a fair chance WITH others.
Doing something that gets your partner revved up should be a joy for both partners. Turning your partner’s libido into a battleground seems the height of folly where everybody loses. (wouldn’t she like to do something more than give bjs once in awhile? she’s willing to sacrifice her own satisfaction out of what? anger? righteousness?)
She exhibits no compassion for the hard-wiring of his “on” switch or even for his coming to manhood in a society that “conditioned” him to have a particular preference. So it appears her top value in this situation is to “win.” That is the path to an unhappy relationship if they stay together or the path to a breakup.
She should free him up to find a woman who will value his libido and revel in sharing it and prioritize coming to a common solution during conflict rather than “winning.”
Also — look at ancient statues and paintings from Greece. The beautiful women have varying figures, but you don’t often see hairy armpits or “furry” legs. Plenty of evidence humans have been removing hair for thousands of years. Intensifying the polarity of the sexes through grooming is nothing new nor “bad.”
This is shocking to read the responses to say the least, along with Evan’s response which comes as no surprise to me reading earlier posts !
The man refuses to get physical but he accepts her bj where she gets no pleasure ! You are not attractive, so no sex for you ! I’m attractive to you ( despite my flaws which don’t turn you off ), so you owe me a BJ ? Wow & she goes with that !
No man who’s man enough & loves a woman would put her in a position where the receiver of pleasure is ONLY him !!! What’s wrong with you ladies out there overlooking this ? If your man for whatever reason ( you got a little fat or have cellulite or whatever – don’t tell me all you bashing this girl have zero body issues ) said, I’m not attracted to you but hey I want to be pleased ‘coz I’m attractive ( even if it’s fat, bald & wrinkled ). How would that make you feel ?
Sure shaving legs is something she can manage but also not getting fat & not having cellulite, but from time to time we all deal with some issues we could have managed but didn’t. The point is for whatever reason it happens – is the man putting his pleasure alone first while refusing your’s ? He has no bloody right in any universe for that.
I don’t understand how Evan could overlook this red flag that’s glaringly evident being a dating coach himself.
If he’s not attracted to her, he can move his fat body & bald head off from her, not ask her to give pleasure while he’s not in a position to give her the same.
This is the deeper problem than hair on legs ! For the right guy, shaving may not be a big deal. But no girl should bother about shaving herself for a sick guy like this one ! It would be a good riddance to get rid of selfish guys like this !
Thank you for your amazing comment. I believe that we are our own worst enemies.
OP,if you are reading this,please ignore the comments here. Everybody is talking out of their own prejudice and biases. Follow your heart unapologetically. Nobody,certainly nobody here knows your situation like you do.
And to be honest,your boyfriend is no prize! He is selfish and immature. He seems like the kind of man that will cheat on you after you’ve had his first child. His reason would be because you gained weight!
My daughter always shaved in the spring, summer and fall, not in winter. She had a bf who one day say it was “a woman’s responsibility to keep her legs shaved for men.” We aren’t really feminist minded, but … really? a responsibility?? We told him that it is a chore, honestly, and sometimes you just don’t feel like doing it.
A deal was made. If he completely shaved his legs, and still thought it should be a responsibility, then ok. He did. He grumbled and squirmed, but did it. The first day he marveled at how great his legs felt. Then it started to grow back, then it started to itch. Then he bemoaned doing it ever. And agreed that it was a pain. And that he would never complain again if she did or didn’t.
If the OPs bf will at least do what he expects of her, then I say shave. If he won’t at least play along, I think there is more to the story.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170629014433/http://www.thefrisky.com:80/2009-12-16/dear-wendy-im-smitten-but-hes-broke/
(the above linked advice column also has a letter on the whole leg shaving thing)
Here’s another take on this. The OP says she didn’t shave in the winter (I guess they met in the spring). My guess is she shaved during seasons when her hair would be seen in public. So to me that would indicate that this is something she at one time was willing to do for the general public, but not for the guy in her life ?
That to me would be the equivalent of being with a guy who never again wanted to treat you to a meal, a treat, a night out EVER in the name of “equality”, then you find out he frequently buys rounds of beers for his buddies and chips in every time the hat is passed around at work, for birthdays, gifts for the boss etc.
It would be hurtful to be with someone, who is willing to commit a simple act for others, but not for you.
Here’s your answer, simply and easy:
If you want to shave, shave. If you do not like shaving, do not shave.
If he cannot support your choice on something so mindless, so unimportant in the large scheme of things: move on if you feel you need to.
If it makes you unhappy to shave, then recognize your content with who you are is a lifelong practice. You are the one who lives in your body and with your thoughts. Be sure that these things which affect your body and mind are positive. Otherwise, kick it to the curb. Life is short, no need for negatives.
I certainly understand why her boyfriend would have a PREFERENCE for smooth legs, but at the end of the day, love means accepting the other person warts and all. You can’t hold a relationship hostage under the condition that someone change how they look. If something as small as body hair could be such a dealbreaker for him, it doesn’t sound like their connection is strong enough. She should dump him.
To everyone using the ol Egyptians n Romans were hairless bit. Egyptian women also kept a bald head and no eyebrows cuz they drew them back on. Sound hot?
@dan you’re half correct by leaving out the fact Egyptian women also kept bald heads n removed their brows n redrew them n how many men run around with that as their attractions on their profiles. Egyptians were also a very wealthy mostly and known society people who were poor or not Egyptian May not have removed anything
@david you’re willing to make a “compromise” because you already remove the hair so that in and of itself is not compromise. I stated u thought u looked better that way so it’s your choice.
I agree in general with the advice in that it’s a ‘little’ thing. But that is whole problem, he is reacting very extreme to this little thing by even refusing to cuddle. Yes, this little thing can be fixed ‘easily’, but what if another little thing makes him not attracted to her anymore and she can’t fix it. I think the author tries to explain how this made her uncomfortable, him not willing to compromise at all. I think underlying this relationship for him might mostly be physical attraction. At the moment she as a 25 year old is perfect, if she shaves her legs for him, but I would not trust him to love you when you age or gain weight.
Yes, everyone has preferences, but once you are in a relationship and you love someone, little changes in someone’s looks shouldn’t change your attraction that drastically, otherwise you will never survice growing old together.
lol 10 minutes to shave per week. no way, it takes A LOT more time than that for some people. And those might be the ones who decide not to do it because the effort is just not worth it. For me, my hair grows back in a few days, not a week. And it grows back ingrown, under the skin. So I have to spend a lot of time getting it out (it looks unsighlty becuase you cn see the hairs even though they have grown under the skin). Getting the hairs out from under the skin takes … to be honest I can’t even say how long – but a long time. Also, hair removal means that you don’t have the protective oils from the hairs any mroe and skin gets therefore extremely dry on some people. In myself, over years of hair removal that has resulted in a thickened layer of dry skin that my skin has made in kind of resistance to this dryness. Therefore I have to moisturize extensively. This is now more than normal dry skin, but evolved into an actual condition. That take, well as much time as I am willing to spend. But to go back to the actual hair removal – that takes about half an hour per leg. That results in an 80% job because there are always some hairs which I can’t get out from under the skin. But that is the best I can do. Then a couple of days later you already see those coming up. So…. in essence hair removal doesn’t work for me. Not for my skin or hair type. It is wayyy to much time and effort. I could do laser treatment but that is very expensive and time consuming and to be honest I do like the idea of permanently altering my body away from its natural state. Temporarily is fine – but permanently is a very strange idea for me. I am sure that many women, especially with dark hair, very fine hair (which grows under the skin) and thick hair can relate to this. So please don’t insult us by saying it’s just 10 minutes a week. That is such a joke.
…and I forgot to mention that I have to wax/ epilate. I cannot shave because I am allergic to the metal in the razor and I get a leg full of raised red bumps which last at least a day. Then by the next day you can see the little black circles of the hair growing back. So with shaving it never looks good either. So I use an epilator to pull the hairs out at the root. ut that leads to the inrgown hair problems I stated in my original post. So, yeah. Acting like oh you are too lazy not to remove hair and its only ten minutes every 7 days. hahahahahahahah good one. Yeah maybe for some people with hair that matched their skin color and you can’t even really see it, it’s not a problem. But for people with skin and hair that don’t match color., then you can see every hair that is left And for those with thick hair or resulting skin problems – hair removal takes HOURS per week, not 10 minutes
My main man likes me being a hairy woman. If I even talk about shaving he has a conniption. He likes to lick my underarm sweat, wearing a bikini with public eyes seeing my pubic hair. A long time ago a student asked why was I so hairy and another date made few comments as to my leg hair. He made remarks about it hairy legs every time we were together. At this point my main man likes the look when the sunlight hits my thighs in the car….so stay hairy. Oh yes I’ve a bunch of chin hair. Students would talk about it and make it the topic. I still shave their every other day as that is a sore spot for me. People will stare instead of carry on a conversation. Many female friends have said aren’t you going to shave especially as the warm weather would appear! I like the attention my legs get as I’m 5’10”. My ex said he could braid my leg hair once before. Love and embrace…don’t shave
Man this is happening to me rn, my girlfriend stopped shaving because she really started to feel like a free woman with me and i acted like I didn’t mind, I like to see how her self esteem goes up and how i fix her… but I think im really starting to loose atraction to the gir I couldn’t believe that gave me a chance. Recently I developed a rejection for my own bodyhair and i shave everything almost everyday. I didn’t want to tell her because I didn’t wanted to hurt her feelings but now im
Scared of loosing everything that made my relationship special