Thoughts on MRAs, MGTOWs, and the Manosphere

The manosphere – for those of you not in the know – is a collection of blogs written by men, for men. Their complaint is generally that women (especially American women) are awful. They’re too picky. They’re too independent. They’re not feminine. They’re not appreciative. They’re emasculating. They’re ball-busting. And these men are sick of it.

Thus, MGTOW: “men going their own way,” and MRA’s: “men’s rights activists.”

These men are angry and frustrated with the opposite sex, and instead of turning inward, they spend their time talking about how women are useless except for sex, only worthwhile when they’re in their 20’s, and are generally better in places like Thailand, where many of them have gone to get laid or pick up a bride. One thing is for sure about MGTOWs: they want you to know that they are not losers. In their minds, they are the guys who have it all figured out. The ones who took the “red pill” of truth, like in the Matrix. They frequently talk about how much money they make, how strong they are, how much younger their girlfriends are. They use big words like “hypergamy” to illustrate their intellect.  If you disagree with them, you are a feminist, or worse, a “mangina.”

The manosphere is like the feminist blogosphere. They have some very valid ideas that are dwarfed by their monolithic thinking and negativity towards the opposite sex.

For a long time, I’ve wanted to write a blog about the manosphere. But you know what? Every time I think about it, it feels like a time suck. So, without further ado, let me share this well written blog post with you that does my job for me.

The short version of the above link is this:

The manosphere is like the extreme wing of the feminist blogosphere. They have some very valid ideas that are dwarfed by their monolithic thinking and negativity towards the opposite sex. It’s not that MRA’s are “bad,” it’s that you can almost hear their impotence in every word they type. They turn a stereotype into a caricature. Suddenly, it’s a not a complaint about some women, it’s a complaint about all women. Go to a MGTOW blog and every post dissects women and tries to explain how psychologically screwed up they are, instead of trying to understand and empathize with them.

Part of the reason I feel so strongly about this blog is because I take great pains to provide validation, insight and empathy. Are women correct when they complain about men? Sometimes. But sometimes you’re not. Sometimes, you’re making a big deal about nothing. Sometimes, you are the common denominator in your own problems. This doesn’t seem to have dawned on the manosphere – that women may be reacting negatively to them as individuals as opposed to “women are selfish.”

You know how I tell women to trust men, see the best in men, be a more generous girlfriend and choose men of greater integrity? I would tell the MGTOWs to do the exact same thing. Their complaints about the opposite sex may be somewhat valid, but so what? Eventually you have to look in the mirror and ask why your choice of partners is so consistently disappointing. Choose different women instead of spending 24/7 talking about how much women suck.

Your thoughts on MRAs, MGTOWs and other male-centric acronyms, are appreciated below.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    KK

    Hi Evan.

    What’s funny is I had never heard of MGTOW until a few months ago when googling something random and I ended up on one of their sites. I couldn’t believe what I was reading. These men hate women. They claim they do not but every exchange is nothing but hate and disgust for all women. At first, I was a bit intrigued and read further attempting to understand where they were coming from. Like you said, they do have some valid points but I kept thinking: not all women are like that. I’m certainly not like the women they describe. I found they have acronyms for women that claim to be different than the horrible creatures they describe. NAWALT (Not all women are like that). Basically, they think they have us all figured out and if you disagree with their assessment you’re made fun of with a yeah, sure lady NAWALT, huh? I wanted to post a comment but decided against it because there really wouldn’t be a point. They already know everything. They seem angry and hateful. I feel a little bit sorry for them because they’re so delusional and hurt. On the other hand I would never want to deal with one of these guys in real life. They seem very abusive.

    1. 1.1
      Geoff

      NAWALT is not saying all women are like that. It speaks more about potential. These men are basically saying that they are not willing to risk dealing with women.

      One simple analogy is the loaded gun analogy. Not all guns are loaded but it is much safer to treat every gun as if it were loaded.

      Also you probably will never deal with a real MGTOW because they pride themselves on removing themselves from society.

      I do not consider myself MGTOW, but I will say that I never plan to marry or commit to a woman and I subtly influence my male friends in the same way. Basically I try to find something in common with someone, then listen to and understand them. Later they are naturally influenced by me because they feel understood. By showing them that I am happy and occasionally bringing up these topics I have convinced hundreds of young professional men that marriage and commitment are horrible ideas.

      1. 1.1.1
        M86

        So, how the hell is that any different from the RadFem “All men are potential rapists” analogy? Again, it just goes to show that Manosphere guys are like a genderswapped version of Radical Feminists and Political Lesbians. You compared women to loaded guns and claimed that marriage is inherently horrible. Again, that’s no different than the RadFem idea that marriage is inherently Misogynist. MRAs/MGTOWs are just the other side of the coin of RadFems. Like New Atheism is to religious fundamentalism. For someone who doesn’t consider themself MGTOW you sound awful sympathetic.

        1. blackburn9

          Its different because a man not marrying or having relationships with women has no legally adverse affect for women. A woman’s life is not likely going to be destroyed or her reputation ruined or her livelihood decimated by MGTOW. feminists openly advocate for policies and laws that increase punitive punishments for men and encourages and advocates institutions to continually discriminate against men.

      2. 1.1.2
        Enry

        if so, why on earth are you on this blog???

    2. 1.2
      Steve55

      Actually, no, they don’t hate or bash Women, only western women due to feminism. Important distinction.

  2. 2
    SoMeINTP

    If I could imagine the outpourings of sexually frustrated and relationship deprived men, I could imagine the “manosphere”. They can be verbally confonted as anyone can, but that will not erase their condition. You never win people by belittling their experience or their feelings. This is men showing their vulnerability. Men are human, like women. That said, the manosphere isn’t monolithic. It ranges from misogyny to self improvement from an antagonistic sexual identity to a complimentary one. Do they treat women as a homogenous  category? Hatred and anger never spare the innocent. However, they do categorize and permit nuance when analyzing women on their individual merits. There is no shortage of articles on which kind of woman you should date. I find that generalizing about a group of people for making generalizations never settles on a useful point. But the central tenet of the manosphere is that the last century of “progress” has been bad for marriage, like a derugulated market collapsing under the weight of irrational exuberance. Perhaps, those were better times. A demographer on CSPAN described a time in America when most people were married to someone they grew up with. They never married lifelong strangers as much as we do today. I see the manosphere as those estranged sons whose fathers knew gentler times. Progress has social costs. This is one of them. The decline of trust. The decline of civics. The decline of fertility rates. The decline of polite society. The rise of the internet’s largest perpetual flame war.
     
     
     

    1. 2.1
      Dave

      Nice post SoMe.  Lots of well thought out points in there.  As guys, sure, we have heard of these “manoshphere” sites.  They have a place way over there on the ultra left wing side of “mandom”.  Although it is always good to try to understand a variety of different viewpoints, there is not that much heavy analysis going on over there.  Lot’s of catchy acronyms though ;-).  There is no real reason for anyone to get all caught up and upset about what they have to say or think.  Sort of like “nothing to see here…no ground breaking thought processes…. moving along”  I believe that I am in the vast majority of guys who feel a little sorry for them.  On a similar vein (but not completely alike, mind you) are the female left wing feminists.  I’d expect that most women don’t really relate with this group either, just like most of us guys don’t relate with these “manosphere” types.  I’d venture to assume that members of both fringes tend to end up frustrated and alone.  Wait!  Maybe there is a business void here???  A dating website dedicated to putting together manoshperes and ultra feminists?  manofem.com?

      1. 2.1.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        Don’t think so, Dave. MRAs and Ultra Feminists are Marvel comics level mortal enemies, from what I’ve read online.

        1. Dave

          Agree Evan.  Was trying to throw in a little “throw two mortal enemies in a room and see what happens” levity in there.  Guess it got lost…  Can’t blame me for trying…

        2. Yuri

          Just read a post from a referenced site (further down this forum) that indicates feminists are removing themselves from the gene pool because they are looking for something that really does not exist.  Sensitive and caring men are seemingly abused by feminists, essentially because they are sensitive and caring.  Once men wake up to the abuse, they move on,(divorce or whatever, to stop contact) while the feminists sulk and adopt a cat.  (This is an allusion to lesbianism, if you did not know).  They also reference trips to asian countries to get brides.  I hardly think you have to go that far.  Go to Mexico or any Carribean island, even South or Central America.  The poverty there makes Charles Mansion look like a great catch.  Anyway, it has been my experience that feminists will always try to improve, even Mr. perfect, just to prove they can.  Perhaps happiness is boring for these manipulators.  Just stirring the pot to get your thoughts.  You can never have too many shoes.

      2. 2.1.2
        Joe

        Actually, I think I’d characterize them as the ultra right wing side of “mandom”.

        1. McLovin

          The manosphere is neither left nor right. There are those that hail from both sides of the spectrum.
           
          And politicians of all stripes earn the derision of these blogs. The leftists for their social engineering and doing everything in their power to not just guarantee equal opportunity, but equal outcomes, and the Conservatives for their advocacy that men “man up” and marry these promiscuous modern women as if the world hasn’t changed one bit.

        2. Joe

          I didn’t claim they hailed from one side or the other, I only suggested that their rabidity (I just made up that word) is more akin to the ultra-right blogosphere.

        3. woah woah

          “I only suggested that their rabidity (I just made up that word) is more akin to the ultra-right blogosphere.”
          Right is defined by political views, not manners. If you think this “rabidity” is a rightwing thing, you’ve seen nothing yet 🙂 

    1. 3.1
      Noemi

      I’ll admit that this Rollo guy on the rational male website has made astute observations regarding women. In his blog post entitled Qualities of the Prince, his conclusions regarding online dating and women’s “lists” mirror the messages that Evan teaches women–that creating a laundry list of qualities that a man must possess is counterproductive. Yet, his post was cloaked in such animosity and disdain for women that I couldn’t read it without wondering just how much he hates women. 

      http://therationalmale.com/2011/12/14/qualities-of-the-prince/

      1. 3.1.1
        DeeGee

        Noemi, I read the link you posted, and I didn’t find his post as having animosity or disdain at all?  Perhaps frustration at or rebuffing of the situation.
        Were you by chance reading into it?  Possibly insulted that he simply held a mirror up to what women write on dating sites, showing just how self-enamored most women are?

        I am currently on OK Cupid, and unfortunately I have to agree completely with what he has written.
        I find most women’s profiles to be very self-important and self-involved, and you would think that the women were in fact princesses.  After reading many profiles, and then looking at the pictures and personal statistics, I have found that many women have a very high opinion of themselves.

        If they are simply trying to “sell themselves” then they need to be a bit more humble in their profile writing, since the way that most of them come off is rather haughty.

        For myself on OKC, instead of writing the typical male resume profile, showing what worth I have, I went more poetic (the artist in me as an MBTI INFP) and wrote a more romanticized profile of the things I find enjoyable in this world and the things I would like to do together with a woman.
        I do get a lot of interest from women who read the profile, even ones who are quite far away, but as soon as most of them find out that I am not super wealthy (I’m self-employed middle class), they immediately drop conversation.  Some have even said outright that I am not at their required status level of income and possessions.  This I do find very frustrating with women, especially on dating sites.

        Due to the high amount of superficial responses that I do get, I have come to the conclusion that online dating is most likely not where I will meet someone.

        I would speculate that most women on there have been or will be on there for quite some time (some have even stated in their profiles that they have been on OKC for as long as 15+ years), since their “shopping list” requirements are simply too high for the majority of men to meet, and most men who are of the status level that they are looking for will have no need to be searching online for a woman, since most men are willing to accept a woman who is significantly below their “status level”, for which men always have been willing to accept in a woman.

        Personally, I find it fascinating to watch from a social interest point of view.
        As these women continue to struggle to find someone, how many of them will have to eventually “lower their shopping list standards” in order to not become a spinster living alone with her cats, and how many of them will continue onward with their false pretense of being overly superior princesses.

        1. Noemi

          “Though most of the women using online dating run the gamut from hopelessly fat to 2-drink fuckability…” This statement reeks a tad bit of contempt. This surely communicates more than frustration. What about this one:

          “Honestly, I really tried to read your message to me, but all of the bastardized English and the run-on sentences made it virtually impossible to understand what you were trying to say.”

          I wasn’t insulted at all. In fact, I found his post to be hilariously accurate. But his snide statements woven throughout his piece were unnecessary.

          I,too, found his statements to be true. Trust me, I am surrounded by 11 sisters (yes, eleven), most of whom talk like those women online. What if I wrote the following about men: 
          Though most of the men using online dating run the gamut from hopelessly fat to 2-drink fuckability…
          Would that come across to you as frustrated, or would you write me off as a man-hater?

           

        2. DeeGee

          Noemi, I do agree that he was snide many times, and more uncouth than i would have been had I written the article.  🙂
          I never took it as animosity though, but that is perhaps because I tend to always favor the positive in people.

          “… from hopelessly fat to 2-drink …”

          I read that as him trying to be witty but instead being a bit of a tool.  Typical of a guy trying to be cool.

          “… all of the bastardized English …”

          Probably 20% or more of all of the women’s profiles I have read on OKC have outwardly stated right in the profile that they will not reply to men who cannot write in proper English.
          Shouldn’t a man be granted the same standard?
          I was surprised to see the number of women’s profiles that had incorrectly used the words “to and too”, “your and you’re” etc.  Many times I have to re-read a sentence to determine what they are trying to say.
          I will typically forgive grammatical errors in OKC messages or quick chats because you are often typing quickly, but if it is too bad does it not tell you something about the person?
          No need to really reply, I was only making counter-points.  🙂

        3. DeeGee

          Noemi said: “What if I wrote the following about men: 
          Though most of the men using online dating run the gamut from hopelessly fat to 2-drink fuckability…
          Would that come across to you as frustrated, or would you write me off as a man-hater?

          Sorry, I missed replying to this.

          It would depend on the context of the story you wrote.  Most likely I would think somewhere between “She sounds a bit harsh but I’ve looked at some online profiles and she’s not far off on many of them” – to – “I hope she finds out that not all guys are like that, and that she finds what she’s looking for”. So frustrated would be closer.  But then again that is probably just me.  I tend to be sunny.  🙂

  3. 4
    zodak

    the manosphere is not “monolithic.” it comprises any man blogging about male-related issues. MRAs are not MGTOWs and neither of those are “red pillers.”  you have it completely wrong and are conflating 3 different groups. they each have their own goals & outlooks. don’t spread misinformation.

    1. 4.1
      orion

      We are all redpillers.

      We just disagree when it comes to how to deal with the redpill.

       

  4. 5
    Lucky

    I’ve got to disagree with you on this post. Mainly because of you’re use of MRA, MGTOW and Manosphere as interchangeable. There are definitely subsets of the loose collection of websites that are full of complaining, negativity and are kind of pathetic. But it’s easy enough to ignore hardcore MRA dudes who bemoan the fall of civilisation and instead spend your time reading some of the great blogs that fall under the banner of the Manosphere. Blogs written by men and for men who are ambitious, driven and masculine giving great advice without having to filter their words through the all-obscuring lens of political correctness. 

    Guys like DangerAndPlay.com and BoldAndDetermined.com , who are all about self-improvement: physically, mentally, spiritually and socially. I’ve seen my life massively improve thanks to the Manosphere and I think you do men a massive disservice by dismissing the Manosphere as a whole because of a few niche writers you disagree with. Not least because it smacks of demagoguery and sucking up to your more mainstream audience.

    1. 5.1
      Roy

      I like Mike Cernovich.  He’s pretty awesome and his journey is pretty inspiring.  But we have to realize that we are multi-faceted.  His method of dealing with things does not work for everyone.  And taken to extremes can be quite unhealthy.

      But regarding BoldAndDetermined – this isn’t a good example of what men should be in regards to relationships and women.  The posts tend to suffer from the same problems most MRA blogs do – chauvinism.  Just going through a few of the posts regarding women, the author writes from a perspective that women are things and that men naturally must lead the world.

      Don’t get me wrong, I like how some of the posts are about being confident and decisive.  You can’t go wrong on that.  Except that it assumes women love jacked up men; which isn’t particularly true.

      When talking about women, we would do well to recognize them as “people” who have their own goals, ambitions, wants and needs.

      If you want to improve yourself even more, pay more attention to people like Evan or Athol Kay.  You don’t win all battles with a Spartan’s mindset.  Instead, know when you must take up your sword and shield, when you must care for your mate, and when you must pick up your kids to play.

      1. 5.1.1
        Johnny D

        What is inspiring about Cernovich’s “journey”?. He’s a law school grad who’s done nothing with his law degree.

        So, he had delusions of quick money and now is an internet spammer.

        Your turn.

        1. Chaitan L

          Mike has 260,000 twitter followers, he is nationally known hes been on 60 minutes and he is a multi millionaire. If that is not inspiring what is? What have you done with your life? Maybe yours is more inspiring?

  5. 6
    Suzanne

    “Choose different women instead of spending 24/7 talking about how much women suck.”

    I say a similar version of this to my girlfriends: “Stop saying all men are assholes and stop picking the assholes.” I say this as someone who was dumped last night. My friends all had the same reaction: “Men suck!” I said, “No, they don’t.” This one was nice guy but not “feeling” our relationship and still bitter over his ex. While I may be hurt now, I will get over it. And I don’t think it’s fair to label all men as assholes because one of them decided to jump into a relationship with me without thinking it through.

    1. 6.1
      Henriette

      Amen, Suzanne.   I have friends who always fall for men who are not nice and then proclaim, “Men aren’t nice.”  Ummm, no.   I have no patience with this kind of flawed thinking. 
       
      You’re right.  You will recover from your breakup.  You seem to have a good head on your shoulders and as a result will do just fine in the long run.

    2. 6.2
      Robert Brockway

      Well said Suzanne.

      My only additional comment is to judge MRAs like myself by what we say not what Evan Marckatz claims we say.  He’s way off base.

      1. 6.2.1
        Diana W

        I do judge MRAs by what they say. I’ve seen them write a lot of ugly stuff. In comparison I thought this article was rather neutral.

        1. Robert Brockway

          So often statements attributed to MRAs were made by people who do not self-identify as MRAs at all.  A good example is ‘Return of Kings’ (RoK) which is often erroneously claimed to be an MRA site – in fact RoK regularly disparages the men’s rights movement.

          Care to provide some examples of verifiable MRAs saying ugly things?

        2. Diana W

          I  think if Feminists and MRAs joined teams we could sweap the world.

        3. Jacquelope

          MRAs say ugly things

          feminists say ugly things

          ALL groups have people who say ugly things.

          In fact I doubt there’s one person in the world who hasn’t said something downright objectionable in the eyes of someone else.

          That said, MGTOW goes way too far. Evan is right when he calls them out for their total broadbrushing of women. However blackburn9 upstream there is also quite right in his vindication of MGTOW – they’re not trying to make laws to restrict women’s rights the way radical feminists are fighting to make men’s lives worse – like saying women cannot rape men, defending paternity fraud, ensuring that battered men have no shelters, etc.

    3. 6.3
      Insidious_Sid

      What does MGTOW have to do with “choosing properly”? Our choice is not to choose. Most believe that the choice is being made FOR us, but so what? Does it seem like we’re the kind of men who give a rats tail what anyone things about us?

       

       

      Yes, MGTOWs talk about women despite not wanting relationships with them. Many feminists talk about men,  despite wanting nothing to do with men (aside from controlling them, and making their lives more difficult). Please spare me the “feminism is just about equality between the sexes and if you don’t agree with that then you hate women” nonsense too. Modern 3rd wave feminism is cancer.

      See? We talk about women, politics, feminism, gender relations, family, divorce, custody, the mating arena, sex, female nature, cancer… we talk about all kinds of things! And we collect funny memes and cartoons, like one i read yesterday that says:

      “Men think they’re marrying a nymphomaniac. Trouble is, the nympho leaves but the maniac stays!” hahahaha I LOVE that one. 🙂

      So really, aside from sharing misinformation about MGTOW, why do you care? We’re not on dating sites trying to try and date women. The women here should be more concerned about players and men using dating and dating sites as guise for alternative motives.

      We’re not the antithesis of feminism. MGTOW is just a logical response to an illogical condition. We’re a reasonable answer to a really messed up question.

      We’d rather sit and bitch about women than attempt to date them and “make them happy” because we believe making the modern woman happy is an exercise in futility. Women claim to have all this depth and self awareness these days, but when their relationships fail and they become unhaaaaaaaaapy they exclusively blame their male partners – especially when it’s a divorce.

      Sorry, risk management says RUN do not WALK from modern females.

      That’s MGTOW.

      You don’t have to like it. Only we do. And I LOVE IT. I have so much more time, money and energy because those things are NOT wasted on frivolous relationship crap that I can offer to my children. And when I do stuff for my kids, they love it and appreciate it and they thank me and they’re not looking around the corner for a better or richer dad somewhere.

      You just don’t bring as much as you THINK you do to a man’s life to warrant such grief and such risk!

      You’re just… not all that. And that’s okay too.

      Go do your thing and keep looking for that ideal top 10% guy! You’re WORTH IT and you deserve nothing but the best and you can HAVE IT ALL. Right feminism?

      Right!

       

      1. 6.3.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        Then go your own way, man. You’re wasting your breath here which could be saved on selfish pleasures like masturbation and buying electronics for yourself.

        1. Helen Hanbury

          Ha ha. Love it. I have watched many a youtube channel regarding mgtow, although I sympathise with the legit views..your responce is what I’m thinking. It hurts me reading the remarks about us women. Good and bad in every man and woman.

  6. 7
    Henriette

    I haven’t spent much time in the Manosphere.  The little I’ve read from Red Pill types scares and saddens me so I tend to just avoid it. 
     
    I am sympathetic to the plight of the modern, Western man.   Just as the feminist movement began with some fair complaints, the Manosphere had its seeds in some  justified concerns.   The way that family courts tend to treat fathers; women who want the opportunity to outearn men but balk at dating guys who earn less than they do; an educational establishment that now often pathologises healthy “boy behaviour….”  these are just a few of the issues that concern me and make me defensive on behalf of men.  
     
    The feminist movement could never have succeeded without the support of many male allies who wanted to end what they saw as unfairly sexist attitudes and practices.   If there were a male movement that challenged  laws and beliefs that were blatantly unjust to men, I would certainly be an ally.  Unfortunately, while the Manosphere might have started as a forum for discussing valid male grievances which many women could have agreed with, it has instead become a home to angry guys who insult and alienate even the most reasonable women.
     
     

    1. 7.1
      Randy

      Your comments impressed me. I think more and more men are starting to ignore women for the reasons you list and other reasons including the rape hoax panic in our Universities. MGTOW appears to be growing by leaps and bounds now, and I am very curious to see what happens in the next five years to ten years. I don’t think it will be a good time to be a woman looking for marriage.

    2. 7.2
      MikeTO

      Feminism was created by the Rockefllers to tax women and also breaking down the family. The Rockefllers are bankers.

    3. 7.3
      Adam

      Henriette, you make some great points.

      There is absolutely no reason to demonize all women. Just because some women are crazy doesn’t change the fact that the majority of women are NOT crazy.

      1. 7.3.1
        MonkMode

        I dont think most women are crazy I think some women are crazy and the rest will act crazy to confuse their victims.  On the other hand Based solely on my personal experience I believe all.women are self serving fiends with no virtue to speak of.  But I dont hate women anymore then I hate rattlesnakes.  I just have the good sense to avoid them.

    4. 7.4
      Samoja

      Yes, i agree, it is sad, however yo got to understand that for some men marriage is just not as lucrative proposal as it was before, for all accounts and purposes my uncle is MGTOW he is 54, ex officer, slim and in good shape for his age, hardworking, and he just says he has no reason to try finding a partnair, he never heard of the MGTOW (i believe) and would most likely laugh it off if i introduced him to it, yet he still subscribes to the basic premmise, it’s just not worth the hassle. So before you subscribe to the idea that they are all loosers remember, there are a lot of them who are not like that, but they have no incentive to go online and post stuff, they just go about there stuff, live there life and nothing, you just don’t hear from them.

      1. 7.4.1
        Anon Lady

        I have a relative similar to your uncle. People in society think he is a great catch, but he has many secrets. He was physically beaten as a child. He can chat up a storm for short periods with people, but he is scared to death of “intimacy.” He pulls back from it and won’t allow anyone to get too close. He also is afraid to get angry. He stuffs his feelings down quickly. I think he feels he might lose control. I’m the only one who has lived with him one-on-one. He never married, has no kids, and now I know why. A person like that will have almost zero success in relationships. He knows it too, but he’s fairly upstanding. People’s lives can have many secrets.

  7. 8
    kathleen

    Ive seen guys with these attitudes comment on your site here! They seem to change their username frequently but yes, they are usually touting the value of younger foreign women.  Of course they won’t tout for example Australian women, because they prefer countries where women are economically disadvantaged

    You nailed it. Underneath it all they are afraid of being ‘LOSERS”  

    1. 8.1
      MikeTO

      That’s maybe partly true, but in reality it’s due to the feminism influence. Men in Asia aren’t being jailed for false rape or domestic assault accusation. Also Asian women are less likely to be over weight or obese and at least act like more women like. However they are the same thing want men to provide for them while wanting equality, not true equality but forced equality.

      1. 8.1.1
        M86

        Do you know how rare it is to be jailed for false rape allegations? Only between 10-15% of rapes are ever reported to the authorities, and 15 out of 16 accused rapists serve no jail time. Only 6-8% of rape allegations are false, and in most cases the falsely accused serves no time in jail. Avoiding women because of the risk of going to jail over a false rape allegation is like not leaving your house because you could be hit by lightning. It’s possible, but extremely unlikely. Most REAL rapists don’t even go to jail. Unfortunately. And what does “act more women like” mean? Be submissive, subservient and obedient? Never openly disagree or speak their mind or pursue a career outside the home?

        1. Jacquelope

          MikeTO: judging women by their weight? Really? You’d be better off with an overweight woman who agrees that false rape accusations hurt actual women rape victims as much as they hurt male victims of false accusations.

          And… “Act like women”? Men’s rights is specifically opposed to outdated gender roles like that. “Act like women” inherently spawns “act like men” and all the anti-male oppression that such a thing implies. This “act like men/women” concept runs totally contrary to the entire notion of individual liberty. “Act like women” is regressive conservative mumbo jumbo.

          And, M86, being jailed for a false rape accusation isn’t as rare as you think. Plus, innocent men have died as a result of false rape accusations.

      2. 8.1.2
        Don

        In Asia, they are called Hebervores (spelling). These men have also given up on women. It is a growing trend globally. Maybe a small group but definitely starting to be noticed and discussed.

        You can agree or disagree with some of their positions but the underlying theme is that there is a growing backlash against women, feminism, legal systems and how men are treated/mistreated by societies. Look on tv, movies, Internet. Men are dumb, stupid, incapable of doing anything without a woman to help them to know the right way.

        I guess it’s a backlash from when men treated women. I just don’t know but it is real.

      3. 8.1.3
        EricW

        +MikeTO

        I’m an expat MGTOW, married 25 years to an Asian.  Best choice ever – all the men I grew up with in Canada (near Toronto) went through the divorce and child support industry there at least once.  Do NOT cohabitate or marry in the west as it’s a legal he**hole for men.

        Great lifestyle in other nations around the world, no divorce and much better for family life (or single life depending on your path).  Best of all, being a husband and father didn’t mean I had to give up on my own interests and hobbies – I ride my motorcycle, fly drones (into active volcanoes), SCUBA, do underwater exploring (about 5,000 feet down) – next year I’m heading to Mongolia for some horseback.

        Family life is the best – our daughter just finished her 3rd degree (in dentistry) but I think she’s planning to get married soon.

        I know lots of men (Europe and N. America) whom went to Asia or elsewhere and they really have done well.

    2. 8.2
      Anon Lady

      I know someone who used to be a “winner” when he was young. He was good-looking, earned decent money. He dated a variety of American women (white, black and Latino) and never had a problem. Then he got into drugs later on, developed serious habit, almost died. Went way down. Coming back, he was older and had nothing. His good looks were mostly gone and he found he could not get good women anymore. Plus, he was different after the drugs. Some friend told him to find a Filipino woman. As luck from God would have it, he found one near his age that he “flipped” for (she’s tiny and cute) and they have been together for years now happily. He said he was going to stay with her. He made his mind up. No cheating on her or anything like that. IMO, he loves this girl more than all the rest combined in his past. His past girls were very attractive, but more the “hot” types. He treats this one very well. He has more respect for her bc she’s really decent too.

      Thing is, this guy is chauvinistic. He definitely believes women are supposed to do certain things… like cook for men. The gf is an excellent cook. His mother always did a lot for him, so he was spoiled like that.

      But looking back, he had never dated an Asian woman and probably never thought of it when younger. He believed a stereotype about Asian women and how they are different than American women. Lucky for him, he found a woman he actually fell in love with too.

    3. 8.3
      Insidious_Sid

       

      But I am a loser. After I rightfully pay my spousal and child support and spend what’s left on housing and the costs of raising two kids, I have no spare cash kicking around for dating, mating and for enhancing a woman’s life. So, by that logic, I AM a loser and I tell you straight out that I could not be happier.

      I spend what little RESOURCES (time, energy and money) I have left on my kids, and they really appreciate their awesome dad, and they tell me I am awesome all the time. They’re not looking around the corner for a better, more handsome or wealthier dad like their mommy did!

      I’m the happiest loser around Kathleen!

      I’m not afraid of being a loser – it’s my salvation!

  8. 9
    KH77

    I don’t think any advice or dating blog that has to do with the opposite sex should ever blame or belittle the sex they are trying to attract which is what I found a lot of in the manosphere (and I find similar when reading women oriented blogs as well). If you’re going to label an entire gender as crappy, flaky, narcissistic, etc etc then enjoy being alone. What I read on some of the manosphere blogs, it was evident that most of these guys have a massive entitlement problem and that’s going to be an issue for them in life, even outside of relationships. The world doesn’t owe you a damn thing. I have to wonder with some of these ardent manosphere types that brag about how hot their way younger and submissive girlfriend is, is that these woman are very likely train wrecks and these guys are probably in for a lifetime of hell, especially if they marry and have children with some of these women. I broke off an almost four year relationship about 8 months ago and I’ve had a couple unsuccessful attempts at trying to date so I’m taking time off to get to a better place, getting back into serious shape and working on a career that will make me genuinely happy. I want to attract a good man so I’m trying to do my part.

    1. 9.1
      DeeGee

      Good post KH77.

      I agree with your point of the one sex blaming the other sex they are trying to attract.  It is counter-productive.
      Having read a lot of MGTOW (but little MRA etc.), in my opinion their words feel a lot like a frustrated and sometimes angry push back against feminism.  But if you are at war with the opposite sex, how can you ever get along and get together?

      Regarding working on yourself: happiness, better shape, etc., I applaud you.  Keep it up.
      I am in my early-50’s, average looks, in great shape for my age, I own my own media and tech company, and I have been dating off and on for 15 years since my divorce, with very little luck.  I read and have read many self-improvement books, and many blogs such as Evan’s.
      My biggest drawback for women, as far as I can tell when self-analyzing, is that although I am strong, reasonably confident, well dressed, but I am gentle, polite, and soft-spoken when interacting with women — a gentleman — and that seems to turn off every woman’s attraction meter, as they seem to mistake it for weakness.  But I refuse to become an MRA, player, PUA, or a**hole just to get a relationship.  I don’t feel I should have to change into that in order to succeed in dating… it sure hasn’t worked so far.

      I jokingly tell some of my friends that I am going to have to start hanging out at funeral homes trying to pick up widows.

      I see a lot of intelligent and good women on this blog, and wonder where are all of you in my city?

      1. 9.1.1
        M86

        Maybe you and KH77 should hook up, Lol

      2. 9.1.2
        MonkMode

        I am a MGTOW.  Twice divorced dad.  I’ve had my fill.  I dont want to attract women.  I’ve lost interest.  Once you realize that women will only be there until they run out of your money.  You stop wanting them to be there.  I dont hold it against women.  To each their own.  The way you conduct your relationships is your business.   I just ask that you all leave me out of it.  I dont want any kind of relationship.

         

      3. 9.1.3
        Insidious_Sid

        “But if you are at war with the opposite sex, how can you ever get along and get together?”

         

        >>Facepalm<<

        Not getting together is kind of the MGTOW end game…

         

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          Evidently, trolling a site for women who are looking for marriage-oriented men is your end game, Sid. Now go your own way.

  9. 10
    anonymous

     I would find a middle ground. Not everything on Return of Kings is bad; I read that site myself. There are some good and some bad articles, some to extreme. For example, one urged men to marry a nice and sweet girl. And as much as we respect women who carry extra weight, I hate to say it, it’s just not attractive. I don’t care what it takes, but if you want to attract men, you need to be fit. And yes, women are most attractive in their 20s. Some things in life are true, even if it’s difficult to swallow. 

    P.S. I’m a woman.

    1. 10.1
      M86

      Depends on the individual. Some people look better as they get older (to a point). Some people look better in their 30s or 40s than they did in their 20s. Some people were still going through awkward phases or prolonged Ugly Duckling phases that lasted into their 20s. Of course, there aren’t many people who could be said to look better in their 50s (and almost no one on their 60s) than they did as younger people, but you don’t have to be flat-out ugly just because you’re not in your “Prime” anymore. You can stil be attractive or even very attractive even if you’re not at “Prime”. Most men (including guys in their 20s) would probably still love to have a night with Meryl Streep, Helen Mirren, Viola Davis, Angela Bassett, Carmen Diaz or Ann-Margaret. That’s why the whole concept of “Cougars” exists. People just have to learn to take care of themselves. The problem is that most people don’t know how to properly pamper themselves or take care of themselves. Admittedly, modern processed food, the ubiquity of junk food and fast food, and ever-lengthening American average work hours and ever-shrinking wages help make this increasingly difficult. So does the modern adult trend of intentionally going out partying every weekend or once a month intentionally trying to get fall-out drunk or smoking weed (lots of partying, drinking and drugging prematurely ages you, changes your metabolism for the worse and damages your body). Fortunately, as technology evolves, so does technology, know-how and science around rejuvenation and age-retarding.

  10. 11
    Diana

    I would say that it’s a good idea for these men to go abroad and find women there. I feel bad for those women, though. But maybe they can get a better life materially out of it, and if the women don’t know what the guys are saying and the guys aren’t physically/sexually abusive it may not be such a bad deal. I think all marriages are part “deal,” anyway. I say that because all people have their “deal breakers” when it comes to romantic relationships. You need a deal to have a deal breaker.

    1. 11.1
      Yohan

      @ Diana

      You are grossly misinformed if you think that women abroad – far away from USA – are all so poor and submissive doormats. Have you ever been outside of the US?

      It is also strange that you think, foreign women cannot speak several languages or men leaving Western countries for good can communicate only in English.

      You feel bad for women who decide for an international marriage? I wonder why.

       

  11. 12
    Robert Brockway

    Seems like the author and quite a few commenters misunderstand the Men’s Rights Movement.  Here is something to help out.

     http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/an-introduction-to-the-mens-rights-movement/

  12. 13
    Andrew

    Evan, I understand your response. To you, it’s something visceral. Fair enough.

    I want to address the concept of hypergamy. You know this concept. Your clients immerse you in it. You’ve written about it. You’ve just not had a distinct term for it. Your target market is “smart, strong, successful women”. These women are repulsed by the idea of dating “down”. They want the top 20% of men in terms of looks, charisma, height, and affluence. You know this. It’s how you make your living.

    Hypergamy is not some fancy term bandied about by guys. It’s a real, biological thing.  You, as a very successful dating coach for smart and independent women, must deal with this constantly. I remember a blog post where you described a client who simply refused to date any man who didn’t have the same educational level as she did. I can image your frustration. You really want your clients to meet their relationship goals. You try to help your clients realize that they must offer something to men that men actually want. I’m sure you’ve let some clients go because they simply refused to understand that.

    The Manosphere recognizes and describes that hypergamy. As these are men talking among themselves, the language of men is direct, unforgiving, and sometimes angry.  Of course there are PUA hucksters, MRA ideologues, and MGTOW reactionaries. Those voices get most of the attention. But there are men really trying to help other men deal with the post-divorce attraction and dating scene. I count myself as one of them. Do my words sometimes come across as harsh about women? Absolutely. I will never apologize for that. Men should know the true nature of humanity, regardless of gender.

    You’ve also blogged about the alpha female and her frustrations regarding meeting “suitable” men. That’s just hypergamy in action. Google up some Maureen Dowd and feel the hypergamy dripping from her words. These type of women are your clients and you absolutely know it. You must deliver a hard lesson couched  in soft yet persistent words.

    Fundamentally, you’re not quite understanding the entirety of the Manosphere. That’s understandable because the ‘sphere is rather amorphous. There is no consistent manifesto. There is no agreed-upon unified philosophy. The Manosphere is simply a collection of blogs, forums, and websites where men talk about issues that affect men. The tough voices stand out, the moderate voices quietly sink in without getting a lot of attention.

    You’ve engaged with the Manosphere before. It’s good for your business because you have the opportunity to learn some tough truths about what men are saying about attraction, dating, and relationships. Don’t get caught up in the talk of culture, ideology, and politics. Such subjects are good for intellectual discourse but are not germane to your business of helping women meet their relationship goals.

    I’ll catch some shit from my ‘Sphere peers but know that I support your endeavors. I see you as a type of Sisyphus. You’re pushing the boulder of hypergamy up the mountain of female expectations.

    1. 13.1
      Lauren

      I am an attractive, smart, highly educated, very successful, high earning woman and of course I want to date in the top 20% of men.  Why wouldn’t I and why would it be called “hypergamy”?  There is nothing negative about wanting to meet someone similar to you and no, if you are an unattractive, overweight guy who makes less than $100k, you won’t have a chance with me.  

      1. 13.1.1
        Andrew

        For a guy who is attractive, fit, charismatic and who makes over 100K, what do you offer him that he actually wants?

        Here’s a start for you… he does not want a tough, strong, independent woman who competes with him. That’s what YOU want in a guy. As Evan has said before in this blog, two alphas in a relationship will simply clash too much.

        There is nothing wrong with hypergamy until it prevents a woman from seeing the other 80% men on this planet. This is why the dating coach industry for women exists, to help them see that other 80% and find something attractive and dateable in those men.  As well, successful dating coaches like Evan help a woman understand that femininity is very appealing to the top 20% of men. 

        1. Lauren

          So, your point is that I should date down, not an equal?  Anyhow…. That makes zero sense.  I fully expect the man I marry to view me as a partner, not a competitor and certainly not beneath him.  Any man intimidated by my achievements isn’t worth my time.  

        2. Joe

          Who said anything about dating a man who’s intimidated by your achievements?

          By invoking a salary figure, you’re invoking comparison, and competition.  An equal salary doesn’t make a man your equal.

          Would you be OK dating a man who made double your salary?  If so, why?  If equality is so important, why should he then be willing to date a woman who makes half as much as he does?

        3. Lauren

          Um, Joe, I don’t think you get it.  My equal is an excellent catch.  I do have a salary minimum,  but that is because I want a man who is an educated professional who can make a meaningful financial contribution if things work out.  I don’t want to be a sugar momma.   A man who makes $100K makes less than half of what I do.  Sure, there is wiggle room on that number – it’s not a deal breaker – but I chose that arbitrary number because it is a high enough salary where I can feel comfortable letting the guy pay when he wants to pay.  I find that if I date a guy who makes less, he is financially strapped and I end up paying for everything.   

          Your logic makes no sense.  The manosphere argues that men should want women who are less successful than they are which means that a man would be dating women who make less than they do.  From what I’ve seen on the comments to this post and on the manosphere blogs, the most “attractive” women are the least independent ones.  Men complain that women want them to foot the bill and don’t contribute, but then complain about women who are independent and who want to date their equals!  If you want to reinstate patriarchy, don’t be surprised if you mainly attract women with low self-esteems who can’t contribute intellectually or financially.

        4. velite

          Lauren, hypergamy is a sociological term meaning “marrying up”.  There are plenty of connotations to this term, but taking it neutrally, that is all it means.  There’s nothing “wrong” with wanting to marry up, or marry an equal, but if you are in the upper end of your class as you and your peers define it, you tempt the gods of statistics, and they are very hard to propitiate.

      2. 13.1.2
        McLovin

        You couldn’t have written a better description of hypergamy than that huffy comment of yours, Lauren. You’ve eaten the lie hook, line and sinker.
        The men you seek are also smart, highly educated, very successful and high earning…so what use do they have for you?
        Those men want beautiful, young and pleasant.
        Enjoy your cats.

        1. Lau_ra

          Here we go! Mens rant on how women cannot want what they want (even if a woman says she is OK with a man who earns less) begins! So what can a woman want in a man then? And why oh why you guys see womans success as a competition? It looks like its either its your way or highway. Many women who earn decent money have no issue with men earning less (unless she is rich and a guy is broke, which is not a likely union, as the guy will not usually perform the way broke cute girlfriend can).There was a research a couple of years ago that said its more likely the man will cheat if a woman is more successful to compensate his fragile ego. Thats why its a safer bet to look for someone who is equal or better at this point.

        2. MikeTO

          In reality these successful women usually expect men to court them when dating and pay most of the bills in marriage. Not a single equality as they claim.

        3. Nk

          It’s proven that relationships, in which each partner’s status and successes match, last longer. So yea, seeking an equal is a rational way to look for a partner.

        4. julieq

          Everyone wants to “marry up”, including men! Men just want different things — they value looks over status. What’s the difference?

          The manosphere loves to make up terms that they only apply to women, when they usually apply equally to ALL human beings.

          Another one is “Don’t pay attention to what they say, pay attention to what they do”… Ever hear of “Actions speak louder than words”? The manosphere didn’t make it up, and it, like hypergamy, applies to BOTH sexes.

          I find it hilarious that every article in the manosphere discusses how awful women are, and how great men are. Like men have zero responsibility for what happens in their relationships, or they are perfect little human beings. These articles only serve to feed on guys who are insecure, just got dumped, etc, and exploit that weakness. Give them a victim mentality — it’s not you, it’s THEM! All those other people don’t know the truth… It has all the characteristics of a cult.

          I’m not saying they don’t have some valid points, but as Evan says, it’s wrapped in so much toxic, nonsensical, made up BS that it helps no one.

          I find Evan’s blog, on the other hand, refreshing. He’s actually trying to help people!

           

        5. DeeGee

          julieq said: “Everyone wants to “marry up”, including men!

          The social term used is typically different.
          For a woman wanting a man in a higher wealth or status bracket, it is “marrying up”.
          For a man wanting a woman in a higher looks bracket, it is “he’s not in her league”.

          and said: “What’s the difference?

          That depends on who you ask.
          Most people know that looks fade (hence affecting only one side of this argument, that is the men who want to marry out of their league).  But probably equal numbers of men and women divorce when the looks go / when the money is gone, and move on to the next person who satisfies their need for looks or wealth.

          and said: “The manosphere loves to make up terms that they only apply to women

          No, see the above.

          and said: “like hypergamy

          I recommend a quick refresher from wikipedia.
          Hypergamy typically is, and has almost always been, women marrying up to wealthier men, with the flip-side being that the wealth allows him more choice of women.
          Only recently has this term also been applied to top alpha women.

          and said: “I find it hilarious that every article in the manosphere discusses how awful women are, and how great men are.

          Seriously?  You must be equating “manosphere” with hard-core MGTOW and red-pillers.
          Just like not all women are hard-core feminists, not all men are hard-core red-pillers.
          No offense, but your post makes you sound like a bitter feminist.  I see the same narrow view rants as many of the MGTOW/red-pill guys who post here, only from the opposite gender.

        6. ML

          whys do you need to give advice to Lauren what she should do in her life? that is not your problem….your problem is to find out why you are angry, and what you should do in your life….if you want a submissive woman, go and find her

      3. 13.1.3
        DeeGee

        Lauren and Lau_ra there are men who are looking for, and are attracted to, women who are equals.  I am one of those guys.

        The problems that I see are: the percentage available to choose from is really small; and going by what you have posted what instantly comes to my mind is what else is on your “deal-breaker” list besides income?

        For example:
        – What level of home?  At this time I live in a home that is typically more modest than my income.  Broken deal?
        – What type of vehicle?  I drive an SUV and not a Mercedes or Ferrari.  Broken deal?
        What else on your “deal-breaker” list might narrow your choices even more?  My list is only about 6 items long.

      4. 13.1.4
        Josh

        They aren’t saying you want to date someone similar in desirability to you, they are saying you will only date someone who is actually better than you.

      5. 13.1.5
        Scott

        Lauren,

        The only potential problem with your hypergamy is that if you are very successful, and will only date up, you are effectively pricing yourself out of the dating market. And the successful guys you are after may not value your status as much as you think they should. They already have security, so they will prioritize personality, looks, and youth. You can argue they shouldn’t as much as you want, but it’s a hopeless argument. So by your stubbornness, everyone loses. 

        On the other hand, I suspect a less well off guy may more highly value that about you, unless he finds you too masculine.

         

         

        1. Karmic Equation

          And what you’re not seeing, Lauren, is that if you’re dating a man who makes MORE than you, then HE’s not dating HIS equal. And by your definition, you are a lesser woman because you make less than he.

          Are you a lesser woman, or human being, because you make less than a man you want to date?

          Does YOUR degree mean that you’d make a “better” partner than, say, a waitress or a school teacher?

          I would hope that you are more than your degree and your salary.

          So by that logic, there should be many men out there who make less than you, who don’t hold as high a degree as you, who’d make good partners, even for you. Because nobody’s “worth” as a partner is defined by what they make, what they do, or what degrees they hold.

      6. 13.1.6
        orion

        You would not be dating down.

        Your SMV is simply not determined by your accomplishments but by youth and beauty.

        Unless of course you are looking for a girlfriend or wife.

        1. ML

          sure, we humans are only worth as much as we are young, beautiful physically, have hard bodies, nice skin, beautiful eyes, and all other body parts,…a combination of anatomy class and a commodity market, we could add a share values to it,…our brains, creativity and ideas are not important, our discoveries, our ideals, our honesty, our courage, who cares…as long as we have nice fresh bodies…what a shallow world

        2. orion

          ML, for some reason I cannot response to your reply directly, so here it is.

          No, your worth as a human being is not determined by the tightness of your skin or by what shape you are in.

          Your worth as a potential sexual partner however is, at least if you are a woman.

          If you are a man, money and status seem to be able to compensate.

           

           

      7. 13.1.7
        Jacquelope

        Your problem is you cannot love a man for him, you have shown you can only love a man for his status. A man who gets with you does not experience love, it is more of a transactional relationship.

        Likewise, men who refuse to date women who are fat or who aren’t supermodels, take note, you are just as thoroughly broken and your relationships are just as dysfunctional.

         

  13. 14
    Lauren

    I had never heard of this manosphere and of course had to Google it.  It smacks of sexism and racism too. I read a few different sites and some are more offensive than other. But overall, it is quite appalling.  No wonder they are single!  With attitudes like that, what quality woman would want them?  And, the whole idea of a natural order where men must be in charge is just ridiculous.  Hardly worth the time to think about.  

    1. 14.1
      McLovin

      And yet, that ridiculous natural order, over the course of thousands of generations, has led us to the point where you are comfortable and safe enough to whine about how you can’t find the man that the world owes you.

      1. 14.1.1
        Lauren

        Who’s whining?  I certainly am not.  I don’t think the world owes me anything, although you clearly feels that the world owes YOU something.  When you question what a woman like me has to offer, it clearly shows how absolutely clueless you are. I am single (I actually have a boyfriend, but I am not engaged or married), not because the world owes me anything, but because I am divorced. I chose to be single (I was the one who filed for divorce) and I found this blog among others as I learn how to date as an adult.  I met my ex husband at 20 and dating was very different then.  Now, I don’t just meet single, available men and I have to navigate things like online dating websites, text messaging, busy careers, and children.  With 4 years of dating behind me, I know that I am an excellent catch and I only date men that I consider to be good catches too.    

        1. McLovin

          “When you question what a woman like me has to offer, it clearly shows how absolutely clueless you are.”
          When you can’t answer the question, it clearly shows how right on the money I am.
          (I was the one who filed for divorce)
          There’s a shocker. That must’ve been very empowering. Over 75% of divorces are initiated by women, and nobody should be surprised by that either, since we’ve given them every incentive to do so.
          Just like a lot of women who frequent this site (I come for the laughs), you’ve made the fatal flaw of assuming that what you (women) find attractive in men (power, money, career success), is the same thing men find attractive in women. I’m here to tell you: you’re wrong. That’s the one part that Evan pretty consistently gets right.
          For profiling purposes: I’m 35, high-earning, never married and no kids. I encounter women like those who frequent this blog A LOT in my everyday goings on. I take a wide berth.
           
           
           

        2. Lauren

          McLovin, you haven’t identified what you have to offer a woman.  Based on what you’ve said here, the answer is probably very little.

          I have plenty to offer, no need to justify that to you.  While I may not be attractive to you because I’m not the kind of woman that will worship a man simply because he has XY chromosomes, not all professional, successful women are unattractive to men.  There are plenty of women that have a lot to offer intellectually and that have combined career success with physical attractiveness.  

           

        3. MikeTO

          He was the one asked you the question first and it’s a simple question. Nothing overly complicated.
          Also if you have kids most men will not want to marry especially if he makes more because he bound to pay child support if the marriage doesn’t work out. To be honest you can’t be too picky because men who makes as much as you do or more will probably not want to date you.

        4. Johnny D

          McLovin, you haven’t identified what you have to offer a woman. Based on what you’ve said here, the answer is probably very little.

          You darn well know the answer to that. You even say so:

          “I don’t want to be a sugar momma. A man who makes $100K makes less than half of what I do. Sure, there is wiggle room on that number – it’s not a deal breaker – but I chose that arbitrary number because it is a high enough salary where I can feel comfortable letting the guy pay when he wants to pay. I find that if I date a guy who makes less, he is financially strapped and I end up paying for everything.”

        5. orion

          How to put this….

          I have a penis, you don´t.

          Insofar I have do have a yardstick as to what is hot ot not in a woman  that you do not have.

          Neither your salary, not your social status, nor your income will make my dick hard.

          The clues I have that you lack are called “male instincts” and not only do we have them, oh no, we are allowed to have  them and they are just as relevant and real as yours.

           

        6. M86

          McLovin – Actually, it’s 68%, and “every incentive to do do”? Women tend to end up poorer after a divorce. The man tends to walk away financially better off after a divorce than the woman. So how is that an incentive to get divorced? Part of that reason is custody. Kids are effing expensive and women get custody more often because they tend to be the “primary parent”. Whoever gets theirs tends to end up poorer, because child support only pays for 15-35% of a kid’s expenses on average. That’s why so many men don’t fight for custody: they know it will drag them down economically to have custody. Divorce allows them to “start over” in life, newly single with no kids. Or if they have joint custody they tend to allow them more time with the mom so dad can only has to be bothered with kids 1-3 days a week. See Louis CK’s admissions about divorce. Also, you seem to be assuming there’s something wrong sigh a woman initiating a divorce. Is it wrong when a man initiates it the other 32% of the time?

  14. 15
    Michelle H.

    Wow, I just want to ‘understand men & find lasting love’.

    Before stumbling upon Evan’s work, I had no idea that I needed to be a better girlfriend.  But he has been right about that, and his most helpful articles assist me in that endeavor.

    Thank you Evan for being a sort of ‘messenger’ between the sexes, because I apparently need help.  (The free kind; I cannot afford to be a client.)

    God bless everyone & Peace Out. 
     

  15. 16
    Jay

    Manosphere is plenty of blogs and forums dedicated to savaging feminists and women and that they are almost all thick with misogynistic attacks that can be astounding for the guttural hatred they express.  There are some obnoxious scathing and offensive people on Manosphere, like RooshV, Tomassi, or  like Heartiste, which, isn’t just an unending source of ludicrously overcooked, try-hard bromides against fatties, liberals and “vibrants,” his favored term of art for people whose skin isn’t white. No, once in a while the alleged pickup artist actually gives out some advice on how to score with the HBs of the world.
     
    But we must distinguish those kind of unscientific and anti-feminist websites, of some others manosphere blogs that, although are written from a male approach, they make an attempt at civility and try to back their arguments with scientific facts. For example, “The Human Mating” Blog:
     
    https://sirtyrionlannister.wordpress.com/
     
    This blog is reviewing research relevant and performing online dating experiments  to testing for preferences, gendered interactions, mating skew, etc..

    1. 16.1
      butterduck

      Thank you for that link, Jay. I’ve read some of Roosh V’s blogs, and I found myself agreeing with him more often than I ever expected to. And I can’t fault anyone who actually does the work of learning a new language specifically to pick up women abroad; that’s not my mission in life, but to each his own. But what keeps me off sites like ROK are Roosh’s followers, many of whom sound seriously deranged. 

    2. 16.2
      McLovin

      Funny, Jay. The three blogs you name as the most offensive happen to be my favorites, and those which I find to be most truthful.
       
      And if you think it’s those mean, misogynistic men who are racists you should google “racial preferences in online dating,” and then come back and tell us who the racists are.
       
      (Spoiler: It’s white, middle-class-and-above women. You know, the ones always screaming for equality, until they go a-courtin’.)

  16. 17
    Noemi

    After perusing Return of Kings and The Rational Male websites, among others, here are a few words I found these men use to describe women:
    1. Feral
    2. Lizard brains
    3. Cunts 
    4. Slaves
    5. Vile
    6. Cunning and manipulative
    7. Broads
    8. Cum dumpsters

    In defense of the rational male website, these words were far less common than on rise of kings, as a woman, it is disturbing to be named as such because of some woman who screwed them over. 

     On the Rise of Kings website, women were referred to as lazy. In fact, none of us have contributed anything valuable to society. All this is drawn from the author’s experience dating a 23 year old waitress. Forget the female entrepreneurs, doctors, lawyers, writers, etc. Apparently those “broads” don’t exist. 

    1. 17.1
      butterduck

      Noemi, check out WeHuntedTheMammoth, supposedly a feminist site. In particular,  check out the comments.  There are a lot of damaged people on both sides. I thought the manosphere was awful until I got a good look at the women on the other side. But neither side is representative of an entire gender. I’m a woman, happily married for 26 years,  wondering, why can’t we all just get along?

      1. 17.1.1
        Noemi

        butter duck: I agree that there are a lot of damaged people on both sides. The fact that I was appalled at what I read on these manosphere websites does not negate how vile some women can be towards men. As a woman (and in response to this post), I must say I hope I never meet such men. 

        1. butterduck

          Noemi, I don’t blame you a bit. Lots of hateful people there. 

    2. 17.2
      MikeTO

      Return of Kings is a PUA site not a MGTOW or MRA although there are articles pertaining to both.

      1. 17.2.1
        Johnny D

        That’s a joke, right? The guy who runs that site couldn’t even cut it in Eastern Europe and it admittedly coming back to the USA with his tail tucked.

    3. 17.3
      Ian Martinez

      Victim Olympics,  pathetic 

    4. 17.4
      Jacquelope

      As a men’s rights activist I consider Return of Kings to be among the absolute scourge of all Baryonic life in the universe. Seriously, these people make me as sick as any feminist website I have ever visited. I literally risk getting an ulcer from reading their crap.

      Thing is, they have repeatedly expressed their disdain for the concept of Men’s Rights. They’re not a part of our movement, they want no part of us. Thank God, because honestly, any true Men’s Rights Activist who actually despises radical feminism, should also be praying daily for the erasure of Return of Kings from the human timeline. Read up about Horseshoe Theory (or even the concept of individual liberty) to understand why I say MRAs should, to rip off a movie quote, despise the entire ideology espoused by Return of Kings, on a cellular level.

       

  17. 18
    Diana

    I make about $150K, am attractive and independent (because I can be–note income). I do not compete with any boyfriends and never have. I make as much as I do because I am good at what I do and work hard. I have noticed, however, that many men just have a problem with high-earning women no matter how those women are and will assume that we are all (fill in the blank with a negative attribute). It’s their problem, it really is. And men as a group are going to have to get over it. Women are not going back to being financially dependent on men and no amount if verbal, social, or physical abuse is going to change that. You’ll just see more women choosing career over life with a man. It feels great to be good at something and be paid well for it. It does not feel good to be diminished, criticized, and treated like a thing that some guy is buying and using and tossing aside.
      

    1. 18.1
      Lauren

      Exactly.  I know that I am highly unlikely to meet a man that makes more than me. and thankfully most men I have dates seem ok with it.  I do prefer to date men that make at least $100k so at least I am closer to double rather than triple.  But it’s just a fact that I am a high earner.  To compensate I don’t actually tell men what I make.  My current boyfriend has no idea of my exact income, although he knows that I make more than he does.  I let him pay about 70% of the time because he prefers it that way, but I do pick up the tab when I can, particularly if the bill is high.  I find that if I’m subtle about it, it is less intimidating.

      1. 18.1.1
        Luka

        He doesn’t prefer it that way lol. Men pay because society tells them they have to. I’m generally more on the side of sensible feminists than MGTOW’s but stuff like this really annoys me about women. Yeh we all love giving our money to women who make double what we do. Jesus H. Christ I think I need to stop reading blogs before I end up hardcore MRA lol

    2. 18.2
      butterduck

      I don’t think men are going to get over it in your lifetime. They don’t have to when they have other options, and they do. You have your independence, which is good, but you also don’t have a man, not with that attitude. A woman can make good money and still have a good man who adores her, if you devotes the necessary time to him. I’m not sure it’s your paycheck that is turning men off. 

      1. 18.2.1
        Diana

        A great many men are already over it, and the water is going to continue to flow in that direction. In a recent seminar for executives a social researcher told us that the majority of men and women both want an egalitarian marriage. If they can’t find one, the women will most likely not marry, but the men will marry a so-called traditional woman. That means that at work the men are going to be surrounded by women who are as good as they are, as wealthy–their equals. The women they wanted to marry but couldn’t get. This is not going to play well on the home front. The main reason for discontent in professional marriages? Men not doing their share of work on the home front. None of this sounds good for the SAH wife/mother.
         
        But whatever floats your boat. If a man wants to marry someone so that he can have an at-home cook/housekeeper/babysitter, and if the woman also wants to be an executive and take all that on, more power to ’em. Personally, I find that situation completely unappealing, and I’d rather remain single, too, if those are my options. I don’t see many marriages that are appealing to me, to be frank. The people in them don’t seem very happy; certainly they are not happier than I am. But again–whatever floats your boat.     

        1. butterduck

          So SAHMs are menials? Really? It’s not a question of economics. I worked and so did my husband before we retired. And one of the nicest things about being home evenings is that we could get away from the office. 

        2. McLovin

          ” If they can’t find one, the women will most likely not marry, but the men will marry a so-called traditional woman.”
           
          I agree, this is how those women will breed themselves out of the gene pool, to everyone’s benefit.

        3. JB

          Nothing wrong with a woman who makes a lot of money, and it would never influence my choice in a partner. However, it wouldn’t make me want a woman either. The fact is that female income from the male’s perspective – unlike male income from the female perspective – isn’t what we’re looking for. If you want to argue the science behind physical attractiveness being the main thing that men care about then go for it, but you’re on the wrong side of the fence there.

          It’s just a question of reality. How many men do you think have income standards for the women they court? Not very many. How many women have income standards? A high %. Would I want a woman who is a high-earner? Sure, as long as that doesn’t entail that she comports herself in a masculine way. I’m sorry, but I’m not gay, so I want someone feminine – and again, if you want to argue that femininity is a social construct you’re fine to do so. It just won’t change the fact of what men find attractive – young, docile, (physically) attractive women. All the brains, success, etc are icing on the cake, but if you did a weighted average, the former three factors are what are going to move the needle.

           

        4. M86

          JB – I wish you would stop pretending to speak for all men or men in general. Tons of guys say they won’t date a woman who earns more than them, just like many women won’t date a guy who earns less than them. Those people deserve to be lonely. Also, many guys aren’t looking for the June Cleaver-type woman or blond arm candy Trophy Wife you seem to be looking for. I know I’m not. Based on your description (docile, young) you sound like you’d leave the woman as soon as she hits 40 or 45 or sprouts a few gray hairs. If you’re that kinda guy I hope you end up as a 55/65-year old guy with a golddigger young enough to be your daughter , filing her nails and holding down vomit during sex with you waiting for you to kick the bucket so she can inherit your fortune through slick lawyering and shack up with her 25-year old boyfriend in the side. You sound like Cotton Hill from King of the Hill, or like you want an Anna Nicole kind of woman. Just like I have no sympathy for women like Lauren who view guys who earn less than her as “beneath” her yet expect guys to take her in even though she earns less than them (by her own standards she’s “inferior” to the men she wants). You interpret independence, non-submissiveness and middle age as “unfeminine”. Your mindset is part of the problem, just like Lauren’s.

        5. M86

          McLovin – Uh, you are aware that a mindset is not a genetic breed, right? You are also aware women and men have kids outside of wedlock or long-term relationships, right? You can’t breed out a mindset. Also, I see no reason why women who don’t want a “traditional” (read: housewife or maid) marriage need to be bred out. Of course, you’ll call me a “Mangina” now. So be it.

      2. 18.2.2
        Diana

        Butterduck: I don’t know if SAHMs are menials or not. I never said anything about that. But the bottom line is that in an equal partnership the women don’t want to end up doing more than their fair share of the work around the home.
         
        McLovin: This isn’t about genetics. You don’t need a particular gene to notice that you’re doing more work than the person who is your supposed equal.

      3. 18.2.3
        Johnny D

        You want to know why some men won’t “get over it”?

        Because they weren’t taught in school (like women were) that they can do “anything that men can do”.

        So, we will deal with it. By not courting a woman who makes $200k and probably sleeps at the office overnight on occasion to do so.

    3. 18.3
      twinkle

      “many men just have a problem with high-earning women no matter how those women are”. Diana, the majority of high-earning women I know who are pretty and have feminine charming personalities do not have difficulties with men. Which has led me to believe that men who are so insecure that they behave as u say they do are in the minority.
       
      This topic has been discussed on the blog before. I’m really not trying to be mean, but I think that many of the ‘strong independent women’ have a huge blindspot on this issue. I do think many of those women can realistically aim for the top 10-20% of men, but when a quite pretty, very smart and high-earning woman decides to aim for the top 1% of men? She is likely to be disappointed unless she can compete in looks and personality with the hottest lower-earning women. 
       
      Too many career women only realise this at the tail end of their fertile years, and Evan is doing a massive favor to women by giving them the hard truth as early as possible. So that they will have more time to choose the right husband.

      1. 18.3.1
        Diana

        Just about every woman I know professionally can attest to what I am saying. I know a lot of professional women. None of us have problems attracting men, just for the record. And I’ve never heard any of them talking about a particular demographic re: whom they will or won’t marry. Judging by what I see, it runs the gamut.
         
        Also, not every woman wants children. Just as an FYI.

        1. Twinkle

          Diana “I know a lot of professional women. None is us have problems attracting men”. I’m happy for u guys, but when what were u complaining about in #18 eg “many men just have a problem with high-earning women”?

          If u agree with me that only a minority of men prefer lower-earning women, I hope u’re not upset about that. That would be like a slim woman being annoyed that a minority of men prefer plumper women.

          Oops sorry I got u and Lauren confused; u didn’t mention the top 20% of men, although u did express similar sentiments in #18.2.1. But anyway a majority of successful women do want these men, and they have one big advantage over lower-earning women in pairing up with such men–they naturally meet such men regularly. So the game is theirs to lose, and they shouldn’t be resentful if these men choose to propose to lower-earning women instead.

      2. 18.3.2
        Diana

        Twinkle: Many men have a problem with it, but not all. If you are both high-earners it’s not a problem. It seems that the man has to make as much or more than the woman or he starts to have an attitude problem. But these days most men work with or for women who make as much or more as they do. It’s so common. So the issue is really on the home front.

        1. Chance

          My experience has been that it is much more likely for a woman to be intolerant of a man who makes less than for a man to be intolerant of a woman who makes more.    Just my observation.

    4. 18.4
      Mickey

      Diana:
      How about the continuing notion that men are expendable at best, and useless as usual. Should men as a group get over that, too?

      1. 18.4.1
        Diana

        I don’t see people as “expendable.” I’m not really sure what you mean by this.

        1. Mickey

          Diana: Expendable might be the wrong word here; sorry about that. It’s just that I find many women tend to believe that guys bring nothing to the table in any relationship, and use their career/financial status as just one more reason not to give a guy the time of day.

        2. McLovin

          Think about it this way, Diana. Every day men mine iron ore out of the ground at a very dangerous job somewhere. Men load and drive the ore to a foundry, another very dangerous job. At the foundry, they smelt the ore with carbon and other metals, working in a dangerous, hot and chemical-filled steel plant. Men then load that steel onto a train car where it goes to an automotive factory. Men work there, too. They smash, bend and weld that steel into a useable form.
           
          All these men, men that you wouldn’t lower yourself to say hello to, work their entire lives in dangerous, dirty and low-status jobs so that you can have a chic, trendy car to drive to yoga class and hold your latte.
           
          Over 90% of workplace injuries and deaths are suffered by men. Where’s the outcry? Oh, there is none?
           
          That’s male disposability.

      2. 18.4.2
        McLovin

        The word you’re looking for, Mickey, is “disposable.” Male disposability: it’s one of those oppressive traditional gender roles that women are very interested in keeping on the books.
         
        Don’t know what I mean? Think “women and children first.” Despite most women on this blog being hyper-empowered gogrrrrrls, they’d still be screaming “women and children first!!!!” on a sinking ship.

        1. Mickey

          McLovin:
          I guess “expendable” wasn’t so far removed from “disposable” after all.
          As to the “women and children first” line, don’t be surprised that the first one to be saying it is the female captain of the sinking ship.

        2. Karmic Equation

          Well, there is a “biological” reason for “Women and children first”.

          Without women, you can’t populate the world can you.

          So while men are “biologically disposed to spreading their seed indiscriminantly”, women who are of child-bearing age or who already have children are “worth” more for the continuation of the human race.

          As I’ve said many times, God has a sense of humor.

          Deal with it.

        3. Chance

          Sorry KE, but we must override what we claim as biology in the spirit of fairness and practicality.  Do you think it’s okay for a man to spread his seed indiscriminately and not take care of his offspring?

        4. Karmic Equation

          You’re adding a qualifier, Chance, thus changing the argument.

        5. Chance

          KE, how?

        6. Karmic Equation

          How does “women and children first” have anything to do with “men who don’t care of their children”?

          Women and children first ensures continuation of the human race, after insemination. Which means, yeah, biologically, once a woman is pregnant, men are more “disposable”.

          Praying mantis and Black Widow spiders in the animal kingdom kind of is analogous to “Women and children first”.

          All kidding aside, Chance, men “overriding” their biology to only inseminate one woman (e.g., monogamous relationship) is not the same as mankind “overriding” their biology to ensure “women and children survive first” in disasters. Women and children “have to” survive since they ensure the propagation of the human race. As long as some of the children are males, of course.

          The character issue of “men not taking care of their offspring” is red herring in that argument.

           

        7. Chance

          KE, you appeared to state that men are biologically driven to spread their seed indiscriminately (to perpetuate the human race) and mankind is biologically driven to protect women and children in disasters (to perpetuate the human race).  They way you present it, it sounds like you think the former’s existence justifies the latter’s existence.  Therefore, you appear to be saying that it is acceptable for women to be saved with the non-adults while the men possibly perish.  My point is that, while men are predisposed to spread their seed, they are not predisposed to care for all of their offspring as far as I am aware.  Social customs are put in place to override this biology for the greater societal good by attempting to ensure fathers take care of their offspring, and I’m sure you believe this is appropriate.  Similarly, I believe that social customs can be put in place to ensure that men and women work together to protect the children in the event of a disaster.  That is the most fair thing to do, socially speaking, in this age of equality.  So, my comment is not a red herring.

           

          Also, how do you know that “women and children first” is biologically driven as opposed to being a relatively nascent social custom?  Finally, why would women need to be saved?  If children of both sexes were spared, wouldn’t the human population be able to sustain?  I’m not sure I follow your logic.

        8. Karmic Equation

          Chance,

          Women are the caregivers and nurturers of children.

          Sure SOME men are better nurturers and SOME women are awful nurturers, but OVERALL women are better at nurturing and raising children than men.

          So, if push came to shove (off a sinking ship for instance) — it makes MORE sense for mothers, children, and fertile women to be saved first.

          Sad to say, this would also mean that the elderly should be saved last.

          And I believe it was in Sex at Dawn, or perhaps another book. The world could be repopulated by one man and a 10 women. But the human race would likely die out if there were 10 men and one woman.

          Yeah, biologically, more women are needed to populate the world than men.

          Of course, since this world is overpopulated now, we could argue that we can do away with the “women and children” first mantra. But by that token, so too should we do away with the “men need to spread their seed” school of thought.

          Can’t have it both ways.

          Of course, this is my opinion only. Your mileage obviously varies 🙂

        9. Chance

          @KE,

           

          The way I’ve understood it, elderly women would have been spared just the same in these types of situations.  So, I don’t think it really had to do with ensuring the world is adequately populated.  I could certainly be wrong, though.  Also, I believe the ability to nurture is largely the result of culture.

           

          At any rate, it appears that we are actually a lot closer to being in agreement than we originally thought.  You concede that we should probably do away with “women and children first” and I certainly don’t think it should be considered socially acceptable for a man to indiscriminately spread his seed, and not just because he likely could not support all of those children.  Even if he could financially support them, there would be virtually no way for him to provide his offspring with a sufficient amount of an even more important asset:  his time.

      3. 18.4.3
        Diana

        I’m not sure why you think I wouldn’t give the time of day to a man with what you are calling a “low-status job.” I don’t think of any work in that way; I actually think that mine work sounds pretty interesting. Further, I don’t drive a car because I live in the city, I would never drive a trendy car anyway, I don’t do yoga anymore (though I probably should), and I wouldn’t drink a latte while I was driving if I were driving because–hello–spillage. Also, I make my own lattes at home because I can’t do caffeine–it’s really easy, tastes better than Starbucks, and costs only pennies. Highly recommend.

        1. DeeGee

          Diana, did you simply miss his point, or are you purposefully redirecting?
          I think the latter is obvious.

        2. Deidre Nolan

          Why is any woman obliged to ‘give the time of day’ to any man she is not interested in? Would Micky’ give the time of day ‘ to a fat woman’ or one who was unattractive to him for some other reason? It seems that some men think that women are being abusive towards them, if we don’t prefer them! That’s incredibly self-centred and immature. We are not here to serve fragile male egos, or to take pity on men who are unattractive to us. We are entitled to our preferences, and to act in accordance with the same.

    5. 18.5
      Jacquelope

      Men’s Rights Activism, in its purest form, says that women going back to being financially dependent on men is a problem in and of itself. Males are seen as disposable in every animal species on Earth, including humans – making women dependent upon us does not solve this, it only salves the problem of male disposability. It salves the problem by oppressing women to make up for male disposability, and two wrongs do not make a right.

      The only way out of this is a path that goes even beyond men’s rights, actually: it’s called egalitarianism.

      1. 18.5.1
        (/) hatemongers

        in my experience there’s no consistent idea of how women should be for all MRAs, the only consistency they believe in is that women should only exist to serve their needs and desires, whatever those might be.

    6. 18.6
      Willowandy

      I have noticed, however, that many men just have a problem with high-earning women no matter how those women are

      I just find wanting a partner to earn a certain salary superficial and unattractive, well, in line with men wanting certain looks. Of course the expectation that *most* women want somebody who earns more may also deter men.

  18. 19
    Rose

    Before women’s lib, there was an equilibrium that had been in place for a long time.  Now women have more economic power and so of course that throws off the balance (by quite a bit actually).  I’m 31, have a PhD, and make over $100k.  My husband of 10 months (we had dated for 2 years) made $46k last year (I remember b/c we just finished the taxes woo hoo!).  I appreciate what he brings to the table.  He is attentive, funny, wiser and more emotionally mature than me (even though he is only 1 year older than me.)  Nobody dominates in our relationship.

    So to the MRA guys: like many other vocal groups, the MRAs have a kernel of truth.  The way I see it is that the social and marriage dynamics are changing, and they’re not likely go back to the way they were.  If you don’t adapt, you get left behind or you have to find alternatives (which is fine, you do you as long as you’re not hurting anyone).  

    Women like me and men like my husband have adapted and I’m very happy (I think he’s happy too).  I really have to thank Evan for this viewpoint.  Evan is really helping men-women relationships.

    1. 20.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Pretty weak assessment of what I do, but I wouldn’t expect any more.

      #1 – I’m not a Blue Pill apologist. Go on, read this blog. It’s been around for 8 years and has 1000 posts. And I have ruffled lots of women’s feathers just by stating unapologetically about what men think and want: warm, easygoing, feminine, supportive, selfless, etc. I tell women not to try to change men, to accept that he will remain attracted to other women, and not to make a big deal about every single thing or expect him to read your mind. It’s not popular. It doesn’t make people like me. It doesn’t try to sell coaching. It’s just the truth. The difference between you and me – as far as I can tell – is that I LIKE women, I CARE about women, I’m in a fantastic marriage with a woman. Thus, my advice is filtered through the prism of compassion and empathy, while much of the manosphere is filled with scorn, rage, and despair. Check out the comments all over the manosphere if that sounds a little harsh. You may be doing your job of helping emasculated men get their balls back. But I’m doing my job in helping women who put up with shitty treatment from alpha males who don’t prioritize them or make them happy.

      #2 – I didn’t tuck my tail and run from a real debate on Just Four Guys. I refused to be interviewed by a provocateur named Obsidian. He took my emails (with my permission) and turned it into a sort of interview. And then I watched myself get pilloried and caricatured in the comments section. So why, exactly, should I engage in a debate with such folks? I’ve already conceded – in this comment, in this post, and elsewhere – that the manosphere has a number of valid points – and that the reason people tune you out is your lack of empathy for the opposite sex. But there was virtually no concession anywhere on that thread that smart, strong, successful women in their 30’s and 40’s had any merit as partners. It was just a shitshow of insults about women and to me for helping these women. Go to Jezebel, call the author a cunt, and tell me how well the conversation goes. That’s what it’s like talking with manosphere denizens who sling insults at me. I’m not afraid of the conversation. The conversation is a waste of my time.

      #3 You know what they say about reality, right? There’s your side, there’s the other side, and there’s the truth? Well feminism is one side, the manosphere is another side, and my side is the middle ground that acknowledges the strengths of both arguments. Thus my red pill is actually far closer to the absolute truth than yours. Are some women selfish, entitled and critical? Absolutely. Are some men insensitive, arrogant pricks? No doubt. You just seem very intolerant of the former and highly encouraging of the latter. I’m an equal opportunity critic. I tell women how to treat men (appreciate, admire, and accept) and men how to treat women (make them feel safe, heard and understood). And if one gander at your site tells me anything, it’s that you have a particularly hard time acknowledging the truth of others and making them feel understood.

      So go back to your man cave and throw some more red meat at your fan base. I’ll be here making a difference with people who want to have relationships instead of shouting matches.

      1. 20.1.1
        MikeTO

        Sir you don’t realize what you’re saying. First of all you are making general statements without actually research. It took me over 5 months to get what MGTOW was really about. You can’t really learn about it reading an article or corresponding with a few men.

        You claim not all men or women are like that but then you judge feminists and MRA as the extremes. There will always be people in the extremes but they won’t be the only ones. How about you practice what you preach?

        MGTOW are trying to solve problems. For example how to make sure the adoption of feminism doesn’t happen again. The over population problems and the world financial collapse that is coming.

        As a MGTOW women are the last thing on my mind other than my family members. I worry about the over population, economic problems and other things way more important.

        Men are trying to solve real crisis problems while you blue pill men are spending time with your wife or girlfriend. We don’t get paid or recognition to this, we do it because we’re real men and that’s what real men do.

        You speak about compassion yet you don’t do what you preach. If you opened your eyes boys are constantly attacked. School, media, and even the the law. For example a boy was suspended for a few days for eating a cookie that ended up in a shape of a gun.

        More men in military die after coming home from the middle east than by being killed in the middle east during the conflict. They are told they are murder for defending their country. They are raped financially by the courts and these men usually aren’t allowed to see their children.

        You wonder why men are pissed off, society, media, government is against men. The manosphere is the only place where men can talk freely although Avoiceformen which is an MRA site is over taken by women. This is why men are upset, because women always try to invade our spaces.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          Your post makes my case far better than I can myself.

          You seem to have a heightened awareness about problems that affect men and a lack of concern over problems facing women. Sounds a lot like the same accusations you level against feminism.

          Understand, I am a dating coach for women who want relationships.

          Why should anyone here give a shit about a guy who says that women are the last thing on his mind?

          I can assure you, with your attitude about “invading men’s spaces”, folks like me and the women I advise are sure not to invade them.

        2. woah woah

          “It took me over 5 months to get what MGTOW was really about.”
          Good – they’ve always struck me as a bit of a cult. Not gonna spend half a year trying to peel back their obscurantist layers kthanx.

          “The manosphere is the only place where men can talk freely although Avoiceformen which is an MRA site is over taken by women. This is why men are upset, because women always try to invade our spaces.”
          Do they also limit your freedom? Cause one don’t follow from the other.
          Also, AVfM isn’t a “male space”, it’s an activist site with a mixed membership. The people there try to move something, not play homosocial monkey games as far as I’m aware. 

        3. woah woah

          “Why should anyone here give a shit about a guy who says that women are the last thing on his mind?”
          Well you should give a shite because you made the claim that they all hate women or something – them being “the last thing on the mind” kind of goes against it.

          Obviously you’re not limiting the topics you write about to dating 🙂
           
           
          “I can assure you, with your attitude about “invading men’s spaces”, folks like me and the women I advise are sure not to invade them.”
          Funny how one of those male spaces he cited was an MRA SITE. That might give you reason to reconsider your “mras are men that hate women” position, mght it not. 

        4. Henriette

          @MikeTO: What saddens me is that there ARE women who care about many of these issues (and more) that negatively impact men.  But when these Manosphere/ MGTOW sites couch these valid concerns in such hateful language and mix it with such unkind untruths, it’s hard for these women to remain supportive.

        5. woah woah

          “But when these Manosphere/ MGTOW sites couch these valid concerns in such hateful language and mix it with such unkind untruths, it’s hard for these women to remain supportive.”
          What fortune, then, that so many of them do without the hateful language and unkind untruths, not only allowing those tender women to be supportive but somehow not preventing them from pretty much LEADING some of those groups. 🙂 

        6. Nk

          5 months??? You really are that slow? It really isnt that hard.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          I started coaching in 2003 – WAY before you became the pied piper of men who think “compromise” is a bad word. Let me guess: you’re a libertarian, too.

        2. DeeGee

          Rollo, I read your post you linked.
          Unfortunately I have a difficult time subscribing to most of the “alpha vs beta vs omega” sputum.

          The entire problem I have with the Alpha and PUA mindset is that it is simply putting on a fake male front in order to placate some false identity that is assumed to be required in order to get laid by the opposite sex.

          I would rather be myself, at all times, and if I can’t find a woman who is willing to love me, strengths and flaws equally, then I would rather be alone.  I would never want to be in a relationship where I have to act like someone that I am not for the rest of my life in order to receive what is in truth and in fact “fake love”.

          One of the reasons that I post a reasonable amount on Evan’s blog, is that he is one of the few people I have seen on the blogosphere who actually has IMHO a balanced and thoughtful approach and good advice.
          Sure, some blog posts here might ruffle the feathers of the Alpha, MGTOW, PUA, and Feminism groups, but I personally believe that for the much larger number of people who are at neither of those extremes, what is posted on this blog is right on.

      2. 20.1.3
        kathleen

        Bam !  Evan thanks for everything you do to elevate and uplift women with your advice. I don’t know what these misogynist victims are doing spending time on your site but their opinions are worthless to me.  
          
         

        1. MikeTO

          I’m not a victim although a woman sexually molested me when I was a kid.

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