What Men Think About #MeToo

What Men Think About #MeToo
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Back in October, I shared this New York Times article about 8 men who confessed to sexually harassing or assaulting women.

Today, I want you to consider this follow-up – reader letters to the Times about #MeToo. They are all across the board in terms of agreement and dissent. I’ve taken the liberty to share some of the statements that echo my feelings about this confusing time.

“I know I’ve said things that created discomfort, embarrassment and shame for girls and women that I knew in school, at work and in public. Most of this occurred in my teen years and early 20s. I’m guessing that my frontal cortex began to operate in my mid-20s and I began to behave like a decent adult. I became a better man. But I was part of the problem. I am sorry.” – Michael

Human attitudes toward differences between the sexes did not emerge solely from the misguided ideas of ancestral social architects

“Human attitudes toward differences between the sexes did not emerge solely from the misguided ideas of ancestral social architects, as Mr. Yancy implies in his essay. They are the byproducts of natural selection among primates. We are still waking up to the realization that historically acceptable practices by men are truly abysmal in a moral society, which means we have generations of counter-evolutionary education before us until we can realistically expect permanent change. In the meantime, we need to be cautious about assigning blame and be patient while men right themselves, lest we find our nation even more divided by men falsely claiming victimhood.” – GBarry

“There can be no question, ever, that the victims suffer more than the perpetrators. However, if we are to make any significant progress on this monumental societal problem, the  perpetrators  must learn to be unflinchingly honest with themselves and those around them. That requires the trust that their tentative efforts won’t be belittled. Opening and draining these wounds for both parties is ugly and uncomfortable, and utterly necessary.” – Harry

My original thoughts on #MeToo can be read in this post, which was originally shared over 3000 times (before we lost our social media count – long story…)

Your comments, as always, are appreciated below.

 

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Comments:

  1. 1
    S.

    Thank you Evan, for continuing to hold space for this discussion online. I know it’s not easy.

    As for me here are the two comments that seem to point to the heart of it for me:

    That requires the trust that their tentative efforts won’t be belittled.

    and from the a comment to the article on the NYT site:

    Change that takes power from a dominant group to share with a group formerly having little to no power is always messy and painful. Premature sympathy for the pain of those in the power group signals an imminent swing of the pendulum back to restoring power to the powerful.

    Nuance, nuance, nuance.   It’s such a fine line between respecting a person trying to grow, their fledgling efforts which may fall short, and having so much sympathy so early that the power dynamics remain unchanged.

    I think of Joe Biden’s video today.   What was seemed to be okay in times past really wasn’t.   And surely isn’t today.   Popping a girl’s bra strap isn’t okay.   Do girls reach behind a boy to pop his jock strap? (Will admit, I’m not sure if this is possible.) It’s not okay because it starts a twelve-old child off in silence and embarrassment about the development of their secondary sex characteristics.   It’s not arrestable nor should be, but if observed should be discussed why it’s wrong.   I think it’s clear not to touch a person’s undergarments without clear consent, but there could be ways to make that clear to children as they approach puberty.

    Maybe education has to happen at that level, with the tweens who are just feeling out what’s right and wrong.    We are supposed to be guiding them but how can we when as adults we’re not on the same page?   And when the page keeps changing.

    I appreciate the trying.   The listening.   The not-defending.   We’ve been raised to argue, to have our points ready.   To win.   Not to simply read a comment and feel.   Feel into what this other person is feeling, even if it initially seems so foreign.   To stay in the discomfort and messiness long enough for change to begin to take hold.

    I agree with Harry that opening these wounds is utterly painful and utterly necessary.   I don’t know where it all will lead but I’m not getting that far ahead yet.   It’s important to be here.   Today.   Not with future fears.   And to sit with that.   And breathe.

    1. 1.1
      Karl R

      S. asked:

      “Popping a girl’s bra strap isn’t okay.   Do girls reach behind a boy to pop his jock strap? (Will admit, I’m not sure if this is possible.)”

      Apparently you’re not familiar with what a wedgie is.   (Someone reaches into the back of a guy’s pants, grabs the back of his underpants, then pulls it up as hard as possible, crushing his testicles.)   I’ve seen it done forcefully enough to rip the waistband  off of the underwear.   While this is primarily inflicted by teenaged boys against other teenaged boys, girls can be perpetrators as well.

      As a teenager in a church youth group, it was also common for teens to grab other teens’ shorts from behind, then yank them down around their ankles.   (The style worn those days had an elastic-only waistband.)   As one might expect, this was something usually done by the more “popular” members of the group … and usually done against the “less popular” members.   One of the most prolific perpetrators was a teenage girl a couple years older  than me.

       

      My experience taught me that kids (particularly teenagers) treat each other in appalling ways.   That particular group of church teens was sufficiently toxic that I felt safer hanging out with the general population of the high school (even though most of them attended the same school as I did … they were more diluted in the larger population).

      I’m fairly certain that the teens knew that their behavior wasn’t particularly acceptable.   The trick is making them care enough to stop acting in unacceptable ways.

      I think the underlying problem is that these behaviors rarely (if ever) have consequences (for the perpetrators).   That teaches that the actions may be unacceptable … but they’re not really, really unacceptable.     So they go ahead and do them anyway.

      Maybe this is finally changing.   I certainly hope so.

      1. 1.1.1
        S.

        @ Karl R.

        That teaches that the actions may be unacceptable … but they’re not really, really unacceptable.     So they go ahead and do them anyway.

        Exactly.

        Maybe this is finally changing.   I certainly hope so.

        I hope so too.     Sometimes it means sitting in the discomfort, the pain for some time until it sinks in.   Doesn’t mean we demonize, but have to really integrate that this really is unacceptable.

        I’ve never gotten a forced wedgie. That sounds horrible, embarrassing, and painful.   As adults now we have to guide the young folks.

  2. 2
    Cathalei

      We are still waking up to the realization that historically acceptable practices by men are truly abysmal in a moral society”

    So people were immoral back then and you are so moral because you happened to be born in a certain timeframe? Is it as one-sided as that’s presented here? That’s what is disturbing about this slogan, it got hijacked and became about those who want to show off they are holier than all those whose approaches they differ by vague finger pointing. You don’t become holier-than-thou by equating run-of-the-mill pursuing with sexual assault. It’s all more disturbing because people who really are subjected to sexual assault are second-guessed because of those who use this to moralize others with their puritanistic standards.

    1. 2.1
      Jenn

      Amen! MeToo quickly morphed from an honest attempt at real discussion about the sexual abuse that routinely takes place in Hollywood, to “Oh my gosh, that creepy guy just asked for my phone number! I’ve been violated!”.

    2. 2.2
      sylvana

      Cathalei,

      I don’t think this was so much about just “me-too”, and men the gender, but men as in “humans”. And it applies to modern, western societies and cultures.

      Slavery, for example, would fall under that statement. It’s a historically acceptable practice (and still exists in certain cultures). The fact that women (and children), until around 150 years ago, were no more than property of men (and still are, in some cultures).

      Now, I’ll be the first to forever complain about “puritan” attitudes. But “me-too” is not a matter of puritan, but a matter of making a person feel uncomfortable or threatened. Likewise, a person has full right to be as puritan as they want. The only thing I have a problem with is when they try to change my behavior, which doesn’t affect them as a person at all.

      I don’t mind a group of guys cat calling when I walk by. But I’ll be the first to tell them to knock it off if they do it to a woman who is obviously uncomfortable with it. At that point, it crosses into being bully behavior.

      It honestly worries me that you can’t tell the difference between run-of-the-mill pursuing and bullying or unnecessarily inappropriate behavior.

      Then again, keep in mind that you don’t start out with “pursuing.”. Maybe that is the problem. You start with a brief approach or offer, then judge her reaction. If it is positive, THEN you can pursue. If not, you better leave her be.

      I think a lot of men instantly go into pursuing mode, and skip the brief approach that makes it clear whether she is even open to being pursued.

       

  3. 3
    Olongapo

    Hmmmmm…….#metoo is here but, like an IRS investigation, has spread way beyond it’s original premise.   Men who behave badly are now punished.   This is a good thing.   Men who are alleged to have behaved badly, are punished too without any recourse in the Courts or through Human Resources.   The punishments can be as slight as some public shaming, to losing your job, or even going to jail. One has to ponder the ramifications.   The “Law of Unintended Consequences” will now wreak havoc on inter-gender relations both socially and in the workplace and cripple people’s ability to connect in a meaningful way.

    Example:   What if a man had some bad, drunken sex at a dorm party with a young woman and 20 years later, she comes forward and claims it was sexual assault?   What if he is an executive or is running for public office and has no way of defending himself?   He could find himself stalled in the career ladder or be taken out of the running for a City Council position. He cannot protect himself or even fight back.   Correct?

    Example: The current biases in Family Courts still favor women as a whole.   What happens to the parenting plan if there’s an allegation of domestic violence?   He loses shared custody and is still required to pay even if there’s no proof.

    I believe that woman have valid and real complaints regarding male behavior.   It’s the differentiation between criminal and boorish that’s problematic, because the punishments are often the same.

    So, here’s how I think it’s gonna go:   Male mentors in the workplace will become a thing of the past as more and more male management-types adopt the “Mike Pence Approach” in dealing with female peers and subordinates in order to protect themselves. Secondly, more and more men will pull away from meaningful relationships because they’ve seen what divorce did to their fathers, male relatives,   and friends. Some may even resort to recording encounters both sexual and otherwise. Not for pruient purposes, but in order to document the encounter in case it ever comes up in Court.

    The good guys, the ones who have jobs, are stable, but maybe not that sexy or exciting, will start to self-select out of the post-30 marriage pool.   A lot of men now, have witnessed the downside of marriage considering that half of all marriages end in divorce in this Country and 80% of those, are initiated by women.   To them, it’s like playing Russian Roulette with three rounds instead of one.   They just can’t see an upside.   One can “man-shame” them until the cows come home but they still won’t commit.   They’ll become like all the naturals (top 20% of desirable men) in terms of “commitment phobia”.   Except it won’t be fear based, it will be common sensed based.

    So the question is “How are women who truly desire a relationship going to overcome the barriers that #metoo is creating both in the workplace and in potential relationships?   Men are scared now.

    This will be very, very difficult because currently, the norm is to blame all men for the conditions that led to #metoo and not the few who actually perpetrated actual crimes.   If I were a hiring exec, especially in the public sector or in a transparent company, I would think long and hard about risk mitigation in my hiring decisions.

    Men are backing off….way off.   This is a problem for women seeking good genetic material for their babies or a life partner for a long term relationship.   The solution(s) lay with women.

    Ya gotta be careful what you wish for ’cause you just might get it.

    1. 3.1
      Blinked

      Very rational response. All that you say has been happening for a while and I see no end to to it, this guilt-by-gender-association. Good men are scared off .. but the real trouble-makers won’t stop because their behavior still works (irony of ironies, isn’t it ..).  Frankly I don’t think I’ve ever witnessed a me-too situation. I think I would know it when I see it, but now not so sure anymore.  As a man who was raised to respect women (thnx Mom), I still have no choice but to back way off to the point of by default never engaging women except in specific and narrow or otherwise required situations. Just too many landmines; a mere accusation now establishes proof of guilt and the potential to lose big. Too many recent examples in the public sphere prove this out.  Oh and this extends to assisting women in need or distress; no choice but to walk away and live another day. Sad.  And yes ladies, we men do talk amongst our male friends about this problem in private (or in hushed tones when in public areas). It’s so unfortunate to see this. Oh, so you know – I’m over 6′, in good shape with a very good career and I’m easy on the eyes. I’d like to get married but what I see just frightens the hell out of me. I think I’d be a great father too. I’m not sure what can fix this, if anything.  

      1. 3.1.1
        Butterduck

        The only thing that can fix your problem is you.

    2. 3.2
      Karl R

      Olongapo said:

      “Men who are alleged to have behaved badly, are punished too without any recourse in the Courts or through Human Resources.   The punishments can be as slight as some public shaming, to losing your job, or even going to jail.”

      You just contradicted yourself.

      If you go to jail, you had your recourse in the courts … and lost.

       

      The public shaming can happen.  However, I think a lot of people are like my wife and I.  The first allegation happens, and we think, “That seems … random.”  The second one happens, and we think, “There seems to be some corroborating evidence.”  Then the third, fourth, fifth, sixth allegation happen….

      Where there’s smoke….

       

      Olongapo said:

      “So, here’s how I think it’s gonna go:   Male mentors in the workplace will become a thing of the past as more and more male management-types adopt the ‘Mike Pence Approach’ in dealing with female peers and subordinates in order to protect themselves.”

      That sound alarmist … and unsubstantiated.

      I train / mentor all of the new hires on my team.  Regardless of whether they’re male or female.  (They’ve been slight over 50% female.)

      I find myself able to adequately mentor my coworkers without going into “private” places.  I certainly don’t need to talk to them (face-to-face) privately outside of the workplace.

       

      Olongapo said:

      “The good guys, the ones who have jobs, are stable, but maybe not that sexy or exciting, will start to self-select out of the post-30 marriage pool.”

      How presumptuous of you to speak for all of us.

      I got back into the dating pool at 35 (when my job situation started to stabilize).

      And speaking as someone who has actually looked into divorce statistics and how they’re calculated, your numbers range from inaccurate to fictional.

       

      Olongapo said:

      “So the question is ‘How are women who truly desire a relationship going to overcome the barriers that #metoo is creating both in the workplace and in potential relationships?'”

      This question says so much more than you intended it to.

      If a woman is interested in a relationship, why would the impact of #MeToo in the workplace matter … unless you’re one of the people who primarily thinks of your coworkers as part of your dating pool.

      Simplify your life.  Date women who aren’t your coworkers.  Let your coworkers do their jobs without having to fend off unwanted advances.

       

      Olongapo said:

      “If I were a hiring exec, especially in the public sector or in a transparent company, I would think long and hard about risk mitigation in my hiring decisions.”

      Um … duh?

      Execs are in positions to engage in highly damaging behaviors, ranging from SEC violations, insider trading, embezzlement, Sarbanes-Oxley violations, theft of trade secrets.  (There’s some overlap in those categories, but you get the point.)  For better or worse, execs establish the corporate culture.  Lay and Skilling managed to sink Enron … and there hasn’t been a single #MeToo allegation against either one.

      Questionable behaviors with subordinates … yeah … that should be one of the risk factors considered.

      1. 3.2.1
        Olongapo

        Well, hell Karl…..You just earned your White Knight Merit Badge.  Good for you!!!

    3. 3.3
      sylvana

      Olongapo,

      so what are you saying? That women have the choice of either accepting the fact that they will constantly be treated as an object that exists only to sate a man’s lust; or give up on ever finding men willing to be in relationships?

      I think you might just be surprised to find that a lot of women would be willing to opt out of relationships if those are their only choices.

      It’s a new era. Sexual satisfaction is no longer a one-sided deal. The times of men paying for sexual satisfaction and women giving it in order to survive are coming to an end. Not because men aren’t paying, but because women no longer need it to survive.

      Women can have their own careers, support themselves, even have children on their own through sperm banks and adoption. They want relationships for love, partnership, and companionship.

      Sex is only an added bonus.

      Children and sex used to be the way a woman paid for her survival. And sure, there are still some women out there willing to make that exchange. But the majority of modern women are no longer stuck in that mindset.

      Threatening a woman with not being able to have a relationship she needs to pay for with sex and children will not work. Because that is not the kind of relationship she wants to begin with.

      So I think both sides are in for a rude awakening. Women, because they will realize that not many men are willing to enter relationships unless they’re in a position of power. And because they will realize that men’s primary goals for relationships have remained the same: Sex, children, and a domestic servant. Which do not match their own primary goal, which has changed to love and partnership.

      Men, because they are toppling from an age-long position of power granted solely by gender (in every regard). But especially when it comes to sex.

      The majority of women is no longer willing to provide sexual satisfaction for money and survival. Especially, seeing how so many of them have to go to work themselves these days.

      1. 3.3.1
        Olongapo

        Sylvana……More power to ’em.  I wish all these women all the luck in the world.  Woman don’t need men anymore.

        Why accept a sub-par pairing with anyone less than the man you feel you deserve?

        Since resources are no longer an issue, hormonal birth control is freely available, and good frozen sperm can be had for a nominal price, then why bother?  I think what you’re not understanding here is that men can and will, walk away and withdraw support and commitment……or never give it out. Even with the guys that are fun to be around.  We see evidence of this all the time.  Like I stated in my earlier post, marriage is a dangerous proposition.  Having women work for you is a dangerous proposition but  I agree, there are a fair number of men who are assholes and probably have it coming.  It’s the one’s who aren’t, who are witnessing the aftermath of #metoo who are re-thinking their mating strategies.

        Men are pretty easy to figure out.  They mostly want someone that they find sexually attractive, treats them with respect, wants to have babies with them, doesn’t make sex transactional, and is easy to be around. The rest is negotiable, They don’t care if you make more money then they do but the second they’re reminded of that, that’s when the clock starts ticking.  We can smell contempt from a mile away.  Personally, I think that men should quit being so romantic about relationships and actively consider what any potential life partner brings to the table.  Women make these calculations all the time.  It’s in their firmware and it’s worked for the last 4 million years in terms of propagating gene lines.  I think that men need to take responsibility for themselves and learn to be the prize.  How liberating is this? What would happen if every man (within their own abilities) became as fit as possible, as educated as possible, as self-sufficient as possible, as confident as possible?  For every self-sufficient. highly educated woman with high standards, they are another 20 out there, who will give these guys the time of day because they’re easy to be with.  You can translate this into the world of work as well.

        You can argue until the cows come home, but men and women are different, and approaching relationships with our existing, biologically-based mating strategies, don’t serve either sex well these days.  Men’s burden is performance.  You hear this in this forum all the time. Women want us to ask them out.  They’re expected to be the risk takers, providers, and protectors.  It’s how we’re hardwired.  Now we don’t have to do any of these things (even though it’s in our blood). Your own earnings and the State does that for you now.  You don’t even need our sperm anymore.

        Men are getting this message and one thing we learn to do at an early age, is to stop fishing in dry holes.  It’s becoming more fun to buy toys, travel, eat well, hang with your buds, decorate your house the way you want, booty call or buy some sex when you need it, and for some rich guys who want children, rent a womb or adopt.

        You’ve won.  Revel in that.  You don’t need a man to provide, you can freeze your eggs, you can buy a Smith&Wesson .38 pistol for the smaller hand, and you can hook up with the best possible guys that your personal sexual market value can command but,  getting them to commit will be an interesting challenge.

        I’m gonna quote myself, “Be careful what you wish for. You just might get it.”

  4. 4
    Tron Swanson

    I was a risk-averse person before all this started…and I’m even more risk-averse now. I don’t speak to unknown women in public, barring the obvious exceptions (store clerk, bank teller). I’ve stopped sharing elevators with women that I don’t know. With my lack of social skills, the world was always a minefield, for me. That’s even more true, now. Women have been living with this sense of potential danger all along, I’m sure…but I’d rather solve the problem by making things as safe as possible, not by having women say, “Ha, now you know how we feel, except we still have it worse than you!” That does not create much sympathy or solidarity in me.

    As far as I know, my hands are clean. No woman has ever complained to me about anything I’ve done, and I’ve never found out about anything through other people, either. If I ever did anything, it was entirely unknown and unintentional on my part. So, my response to the “All men are guilty to some degree” idea involves profanity and defiance. Collective guilt is an extremely dangerous concept…it may be applicable in rare cases, but it’s playing with fire.

  5. 5
    ScottH

    #Metoo has gone #toofar.   I cringe when I watch Joe Biden defend himself because some women “felt uncomfortable,” like he’s some kind of pervert.   Grow the F up.

    Hell, some women make me very uncomfortable when they wear skin tight yoga pants.   Makes me want to scratch my eyes out but I’m a white male and I have to suck up everything.   I’m not allowed to be uncomfortable.

    1. 5.1
      Karl S

      Unwanted physical contact versus a dislike of seeing yoga pants. Sweet comparison brah.

      The other day a female colleague of mine had an old man touch her earlobes to comment on her earrings. All the women at my work, my girlfriend, my other female friends – they’ve had endless similar experiences. When they share these stories, the reaction is always a knowing sigh. “You too? Let me tell you about what happened to me the other day”.

      As a man, I never had to deal with that sort of thing.

      Now, maybe other men have – in which case, they are also victims – but even so, there’s no denying it’s mostly women who have to cop that nonsense and it’s usually from entitled men who think they’re just being “playful” or “nice”. They’re not. They’re making women feel unsafe when they have every damn right to feel safe.

      I’m like some of the guys who wrote those comments Evan posted. I *know* I’ve made women feel uncomfortable and ‘creeped out”, because I was only focusing on what I wanted. I didn’t think about how my actions would make them feel. I have deep regrets about my behavior in the past, but by acknowledging that, I’m also doing better going forwards.

      Whether or not you believe your hands are clean, if men are feeling more “risk averse” nowadays – then good. You’re being mindful. You’re thinking about the people around you. Tron Swanson – you don’t want to share elevators with women you don’t know? Surprise – they’re terrified of sharing elevators with men they don’t know.

      But believe it or not, #metoo is not about creating a culture of mutual fear and suspicion. That’s not the goal. Ask the women you know who support it. Don’t just read the media headlines or the soundbites designed specifically to enrage your sensibilities (because that IS their goal). It’s about creating a culture of mutual care and respect. A place where everyone feels safe.

      Yes, there quite a few cases of men being denounced by the mob without due process and YES, that is a problem. A balance has to be found. But these mistakes don’t mean that the deluge of unwanted behaviors that men do to women *all the time* should be dismissed.

      Women don’t need to “grow the F up.” Men just need to think a little more. You, me and everyone else.

      1. 5.1.1
        Adrian

        Hi Karl S,

        I completely agree with everything you’ve said; standing ovation.

      2. 5.1.2
        S.

        But these mistakes don’t mean that the deluge of unwanted behaviors that men do to women *all the time* should be dismissed.

        Thank you, Karl S.

      3. 5.1.3
        Tron Swanson

        Karl S,

        Yes, I’m technically thinking about the people around me, but it’s only out of concern for myself. Women may very well be victims, but as long as I feel threatened by all this, I can’t afford to think of them that way. I have to view them as potential threats to my legal and financial well-being.

        I agree that MeToo, and other causes, can easily be misrepresented, by both the media and others…but I’ve heard women laugh about how men need to have a little fear put in them, and I’ve seen hundreds of similar comments on established, well-known websites. Including this one.

        As for men needing to think…what happens if we think about it a lot, and still disagree? You just assume that people will somehow naturally agree with your point of view. Never a wise move in a philosophically diverse civilization such as ours.

        1. Karl S

          I have to view them as potential threats to my legal and financial well-being.

          That is very sad for you then. I have zero fear in my relationships with women. I’m just more mindful of how I act with them in different spheres – from the workplace to my friendship groups to strangers in the supermarket.

          I’ve heard women laugh about how men need to have a little fear put in them, and I’ve seen hundreds of similar comments on established, well-known websites. Including this one.

          Try to consider the mounting anger that’s gone on not for years or decades but for generations in the way women have been dismissed by men when it comes to problems of harassment. I always think of the history behind those kinds of comments.

          Because really, no women I know wants men to be afraid. They all want to have great relationships with men and they do. But they also want men to listen to how they’re feeling when they’re suddenly being overly familiar without any kind of signal of permission that’s its okay to do that. They want there to be consequences when this behavior has been allowed for so long.

          You just assume that people will somehow naturally agree with your point of view.

          No, I just assume men will start listening more to the women around them.

           

        2. shaukat

          Women may very well be victims, but as long as I feel threatened by all this, I can’t afford to think of them that way. I have to view them as potential threats to my legal and financial well-being.

          Jesus, you sound like one of those old school white segregationists claiming that integration and civil rights were a threat to their well-being. False sense of victimhood written all over you. The reason you feel this way about women is because you have no experience actually interacting with women on a genuine human level.

          False rape allegations precede the MeeToo movement, and statistically speaking, they very rarely ever result in a conviction. I haven’t changed my behavior at all since this heightened awareness around harassment/assault, and I’ve never once felt threatened by the potential for fake allegations. If you got off those pathetic MGTOW sites and actually talked to a female you’d realize that the vast majority of them have absolutely no interest in using this environment to accuse or stigmatize innocent men.

        3. Tron Swanson

          Karl S,

          When someone can destroy your life with one accusation, you should definitely be afraid of them.

          As for “mounting anger”…I wasn’t around, back then, so it has nothing to do with me. I care less about the “why” than about how it affects me. If someone is legitimately angry at a group that I just happened to be born into, but I’m not involved in their grievances, they can just leave me out of it, thank you. I don’t recall signing up for any ideology or religion that would subject me to collective guilt or collective punishment.

          Also, if I listened more to the women around me…I would hear primarily anti-MeToo stuff, given where I live. Ironically, I don’t agree with those women on much.

          shaukat,

          It sounds as if the inner circles of many high-level businesses are becoming hotbeds of gender segregation, as they fear getting MeToo’d into oblivion. Perhaps society will follow suit? If I reach a point where no more women are willing to sleep with me, I’d happily avoid them en masse, living in a safe, allegation-free zone. There are already women-only gyms, and many other women’s-only places, so we might as well follow their example. For our safety, of course.

          I’m amazed that you know so much about how much I’ve interacted with women. I’ll gladly admit that most of my interactions with them have been superficial at best…but not all.

          Let’s be charitable and say that 99% of women would never make a false allegation. Even so, making an allegation in an “If you don’t believe a female accuser, you’re a monster” atmosphere is tantamount to firing a loaded gun, in terms of how much power it gives the accuser. One statement and the accused is screwed. You’re asking me to give an entire gender the power to point a legal/financial “gun” at me, and then assuring me that they’ll never pull the trigger. “Oh, stop being ridiculous, just give them the power to destroy your life, and stop worrying about them actually doing it!” I would never want to give someone that much power over me, even if I trusted them 100%. Let’s leave gender out of it entirely, no one should trust anyone that much.

        4. sylvana

          Tron,

          so you view women as potential threats to your legal and financial well-being just because they’re women. And women see you as a potential threat to their physical well-being just because you’re a man.

          Well, I guess that makes the playing field even 🙂

      4. 5.1.4
        sylvana

        Karl S,

        Quite a few wonderful comments on this post from you. Thank you for that.

    2. 5.2
      Cathalei

      How does others wearing yoga pants affecting you other than eyesore? There are UGGs but if other people wear it I have nothing to say about that. Not equal to touching someone from behind. Not saying he necessarily sexually assaulted anybody but it is a problem with others’ space. I wouldn’t want to be touched like that either by someone I don’t know.

  6. 6
    Yet Another Guy

    I do not know about the guys in the article, but what I have seen with my male friends is fear and confusion.   In fact, I have never experienced the level of fear that I am seeing.   Whereas card games with male peers used to be about sports, drinking a little too much, and trying not to lose money.   Now, all I hear about is how they have adopted the “Pence Rule.”   I never paid attention to Mike Pence before his rule became the center of our conversations.

    Something that is not being discussed is that a sizable percentage of women have historically used sexuality to advance their careers.   I have lost count of the number of women who dressed at the edge of what is considered to be professional.   To say that these women were not using their physical assets to advance their careers is to deny that the sky is blue.   Hopefully, #MeToo puts an end to this female behavior as well and levels the playing field for women who do not use sexuality to advance their careers.

    1. 6.1
      Adrian

      Yet Another Guy said, “Something that is not being discussed is that a sizable percentage of women have historically used sexuality to advance their careers.”

      Really? How many? 90%… 50%… 20%…

      So that’s why most CEO’s, politicians, and U.S presidents are women and why we men unfairly only get 70 cents for every dollar a woman makes. All the work we men put in to gain the right to vote, gain the right to work, to even gain the right to decide what to do with our own bodies in abortion cases.

      Rights that even up to the late 90’s and early 2000’s we still struggled to achieve equality on and Yet those sneaky women just showed up in a tight dresses, stick out their chest and now they run the country.

      Yet Another Guy said, “I have lost count of the number of women who dressed at the edge of what is considered to be professional.

      Again I completely agree with this, we men are so disgusted and tired of women dressing like this. I mean it’s so sad. It is now to the point where we men can’t even enter a meeting without some female CEO dressing like she works as a stripper.

      1. 6.1.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @Adrian

        Au contraire!   What started out as being a voice for women who had been seriously abused has been co-opted by far-left feminism as a weapon to terrorize men.   To deny that too is to deny the sky is blue.     We have a major problem when this many men decide to voluntarily segregate themselves from women.   The #MeToo movement is making the MGTOW guys look like geniuses.   Do women who have been victims deserve to be heard? Absolutely!   Are far-left feminists right in using #MeToo as a weapon to terrorize men? Absolutely not!   What is happening to Joe Biden is a prime example of far-left feminism exploiting #MeToo.   Progressive female Democrats want to take Biden down before the primary.   Sadly, far-left progresivism is driving more and more men to the right.     My friends almost never talked about conservative politicians until #MeToo.   We are all political moderates.   However, the goal post for what is considered to be moderate is being moved to the left.   Mark my word, the fallout from #MeToo is going to hurt women more than it is going to hurt men, and we can thank far-left feminism for that outcome.

        1. Noone45

          Boomers are weird.

          Your whole reply had me with the Ferengi “FeMaLe” voice in my head.

          I’m totally fine with y’all practicing the Pence rule. Your boys haven’t gotten the memo though. I still can’t walk downtown without some gross ass male yelling comments at me, following me, or invading my space. But do cry about the females. It’s endearing.

           

        2. sylvana

          YAG,

          So you’re answer to the fact that the majority of women experience inappropriate behavior, sexual harassment, and assault is this:

          1) Threatening women. Repeatedly. “You’ll end up alone. No man will want you. It’ll hurt you more than men”.

          2) Blaming the victims of sexual harassment and assault for the far-left movement. It’s all the victims’ fault that a few crazies are trying to take advantage of their victimhood to push their MGTOW equivalent agenda.

          3) Going on an outraged rant about extreme feminism, which takes advantage of me-too, but has nothing to do with it. While supporting the male equivalent of extreme feminism: MGTOW

          4)  Well, you did put in at least one short sentence in, acknowledging that there might be some truth to the whole me-too movement

          4) Not a SINGLE word of outrage about or so much as acknowledgement of the men who are causing the me-too movement and the huge amount of victims thereof.

          So you’re outraged about the feminists, but not about the men who throw fuel on their fire?

          And I’m somewhat with Noone45 here.

          We have a major problem when this many men decide to voluntarily segregate themselves from women.

          So far, the numbers are puny. But I’ll acknowledge it. Still, I’m wondering. WHY do you feel this is a problem? And for whom? How, in what way?

           

           

        3. Noone45

          I’m going to be blunt – I don’t think most of the men angrily commenting see women as anything more than convenience. When women aren’t being convenient, they are pissed about it. I don’t think it’s a huge issue if they want to segregate themselves as long as they don’t engage in violence towards women.

          And if women are able to flash ass and land a job from men, who is more foolish? Apparently men are so stupid I can flash my tits and get 50k a year and healthcare out of them. And they get to run the world? Lol.

      2. 6.1.2
        Emily, to

        Hi Adrian,  

        It is now to the point where we men can’t even enter a meeting without some female CEO dressing like she works as a stripper.

        Is that how they dress where you work? I have a casual work environment. I can wear jeans but the only women who dress up are the young women who still think that’s important. I thought it was important, too, at that age. They look professional and wear skirts and heels. But I’m not putting heels on every day and teasing the hair as there’s no one there I’m trying to attract. I don’t feel like putting in all the extra grooming time just to sit at a desk all day long with the same 15-20 people I see every day.

        Are you tired of women dressing like strippers just at work or at work and outside of work? I personally think a little tart added in outside of work can go a long way.   🙂

      3. 6.1.3
        sylvana

        Adrian,

        go Adrian! You are on a roll!

        I have to say, I have always highly respected you for all the thoughtful comments you make and the interesting questions you ask.

        But in this particular post thread, you absolutely shine as a wonderful, compassionate person!

        And you are also showing that you are exactly what Evan always advocates: A nice guy with balls.

        Because in this blog, you are proving that you can put your foot down and dig in quite nicely when it comes down to something you believe in, and when you’re protective instincts are in high gear.

        Hats off to you 🙂

    2. 6.2
      No Name To Give

      YAG,

      Idk how men even know what the rules are. Using the “Pence rule” as an example, I’ve seen plenty of discussions on social media where Pence is bashed because “doesn’t he have enough self-control to be alone with a woman for work purposes??” These would be the same people saying this that would demand men avert their eyes yet women should be able to dress as provacatively as they please. The goalposts are always moving. I DO NOT believe any woman deserves to be mistreated for how she’s dressed; but if you suggest that it’s a good idea for women to have some modesty (not even saying to dress like the Amish) you draw all kinds of fire. I don’t get it.

      1. 6.2.1
        sylvana

        YAG,

        You’re insulting the entire male gender. Plenty of men are perfectly capable of looking, even testing the waters without crossing the line into inappropriate behavior.

        Do not try to excuse your inability to control yourself with the way someone else dresses. Heck, even in a strip club, you’re not allowed to paw the stripper unless she gave you permission to.

        Most women and men who were victims of inappropriate advances were actually dressed just fine. The more provocative ones generally do not have as much of a problem, because they have the attitude to back it up.

        But let’s say we do go by dress. I’d be walking around grabbing just about every man’s equipment, because most of men’s clothes clearly show the bulge.

        I find the sight of it rather erotic. So I simply cannot resist. Does that mean it’s men’s fault if I cross the line? What about all the men who go shirtless?  Should they fully expect to be harassed by gay men and women they don’t find attractive?

        Not to mention that you’re completely dismissing the male victims (of men and women), who are forgotten most of the time.

        Stop blaming the victims (this goes for everything, not just “me-too”). It’s ridiculous.

        1. sylvana

          YAG, No Name To Give

          Well, heck, YAG. Falsely accused.

          That was actually No Name to Give I should have replied to.

          Either way, the reply stays the same.

    3. 6.3
      Adrian

      Okay Yet Another Guy one more thing. I have to pull a Maika here, it makes me so irritated that you, Tron, and others would take a post by Evan aimed at supporting victims while also showing that most man who have AND have not done something questionable now recognize that it was wrong; we men should take responsibility for our actions…

      You know because Evan is the bridge between the genders

      Yet you guys try to turn it into some kind of male victim plea while trashing women… My friends this site IS FOR WOMEN. To teach, but also to uplift and support WOMEN. We men are guest here.

      There are so many other post on this site that you all could go to and complain, condemn, and even victim blame women.

      Why pick this one?

      1. 6.3.1
        No Name To Give

        Adrian,

        It’s a HUMAN problem. Do men need to behave better? Yes. Does pointing out that many men are now confused how to approach and relate to women mean that anyone is victim blaming? No. Is it possible to see the struggles of both sides at the same time? Yes. I do not understand this either/or binary thinking. This is not the Kobiashi Maru.

      2. 6.3.2
        Blinked

        Adrian, I don’t understand the vitriol in your post. Good decent men have always understood the definition of questionable behavior  and always take responsibility for their actions.  Your apparent self-flagellation  of men on behalf of women probably earns kudos from the female readers but it gets us no closer to solving the issue (assuming you still posses a problem-solving mindset).  This problem involves and impacts both men and women. And it’s not just men who can fix it. I’m not seeing male victim pleas in these posts, nor the “trashing of women” or “victim blaming”. I’m seeing a wider inclusion of perspectives, not just simple validations of others existing perceptions. Yes, it seems this site is for women. To teach, uplift and support? Sounds noble. Should there be only women posting here? Yes, let the men come in but they must sit silently  as second-class “guests”? Well, then you’d only have a self-serving echo chamber of group think. The “sit down and shut up, you’re part of the problem” assertion doesn’t get us any closer to a solution. It alienates potential allies and prevents a solution. I think there are lots of good men out there that could be great assets in solving this problem. But it seems that men’s entry fee to the me-too group includes signing a pledge confessing presumed past sins, pre-admitting guilt by gender membership, and profuse apologizing. No self-respecting man would sign on to that.

      3. 6.3.3
        Marika

        Thanks Adrian, but I think you misunderstand me. The guys are just talking about their reactions to MeToo, which is the topic of the post and the conversation Evan started.

        MeToo is very much an American thing, but I know here whenever there’s a big social or political change it’s a big deal ..until it isn’t. The sky is falling…then everyone adjusts. The guys commenting here known to treat women like fellow humans seem to be having generally  moderate reactions to it, which is great to see.

        And if a group of guys not known to be great for women are having overblown, negative, fearful reactions – well maybe that’s not such a bad thing for them to experience. Every woman I know has experienced some level of fear from men at some point, and in some countries it’s a daily lived experience.

      4. 6.3.4
        Mrs Happy

        Do you think a public site on the internet can be just for some people, and others are maybe unwelcome or only tentatively-accepted guests, based on their demographic or income or gender or skin colour, e.g. this idea of this site being just for women? I don’t.   Free internet and world and all.

        Not directed at you, but overall I’m unimpressed when people try to manipulate or shame some of those who read and communicate on this blog.   If Tron or YAG or anyone else has an opinion or experience, there are some of us who really appreciate hearing of this.   If everyone agrees with one another and is similar, if nothing else, it’s boring.

        1. Tron Swanson

          Karl S, did you see this? Marika said, re: fear, “Maybe that’s not such a bad thing for them to experience.” Look, now you know a woman who wants men to be afraid!

          And, Marika…since it’s okay for you to support a society that makes me fearful, that means it’s okay for me to do the same in return, right?

        2. Cathalei

          Depends on the context and the content. Some sites are geared towards a certain audience and if you are not in it, it’s a waste of both of your time and theirs to engage in it. A site about dating just not happens to be one of them, because both women and men have insights on it. It’s just that Evan’s clients happen to be 80% female as he said. Otherwise this site is for men as well.

          I appreciate hearing various opinions on here, it’s only when it turns to whining about others (usually opposite sex) that it gets tiresome. It becomes a washed up sob story instead. I also appreciate that women here seem to have different perspectives, something that I found to be largely absent in sites that are primarily geared towards women. I can voice my unpopular perspective without being labeled as fake.

        3. Marika

          Nothing to do with this post, Mrs Happy, but in general, I think maybe married people vs daters (and vs non daters) would probably use/see this site quite differently.

          For you it’s probably an interesting read, for some of us it’s like a lifeline.   Particularly after a bad date. Or another relationship doesn’t work out. Etc.

          Yeah, it’s public and on the Internet, but it has a specific misson and purpose. I also don’t know any site which doesn’t have rules around posting.

          I get some people think it’s a free-for-all, but I disagree. And maybe you can see how it’s a different site for those of us looking for love vs those who’ve already found it.

        4. Pam

          Mrs Happy,

          Are you a male? If you are, then I understand you not being aware of what it’s like for a female person as she lives a lifetime of shame, fear, guilt, or trepidation, all  as female do.  Women and girls have always suffered and they mostly suffer in silence, in in their own homes. Some girls experince unwanted touches, from dads, uncles, grandfathers, male family friends, etc. it’s a reality. Hush talking if you don’t know of. Just hush.

          I know about this from other females who told me what they experimce, I also know this,  because, my college professor, tried it with me. One of my ex boyfriends  tried to force himself on me. During high school prom, a male schoolmate reached under my mini skirt, and pinched my butt, in front of a whole table of people. I was a waitesss. I never said a word.

          Also, yes , it is absolutely possible, for there  to be a site on the Internet, for one group of people, where outsiders are unwelcome. That’s a normal thing.

          1) Imagine, a site with an article where a male writer, created an article where other men and boys could give support and feedback for those with erectile dysfunction. No place for women and girls.

          2) Imagine a site where a woman writes an article about how females experience years of cramps and heavy bleeding during their cycles and asked other females to write in to give support and to tell how they deal with the problem.   No place for men and boys.

          3) Imagine a site for women discussing how they had to fight with their husbands because the husband tried control her delivery room, and try to let his mother and father, invade the wife’s delivery room. And the site was create for pregnant females, to express their pain and troubles, and how to gain control over their birth space, while they labored and delivered. The women discussed how angry they felt and how they learned to have a voice over their husbands’ desire to dominate and control her private female space. No place for men and boys.

          Yes,  there are places where one particular gender, or group, or race or culture may have the right to block others out, or want to go where they don’t appreciate others, invading. Yes, this is a free country, with free internet conversations and postings, but some spaces are nonetheless are  private,  to certain groups, and some groups don’t belong.

          I’m sick of men thinking they can  do everything and touch all over a female, then think  he can get mad because she called him out on his touching. Are men gone crazy  or what? Men, you can be alone with a female,  just don’t feel in the female, unless she is your wife or girlfriend. And this warning includes dads who think they can keep tickling and tussling with their developed daughters. No, you can’t .

           

        5. Mrs Happy

          Pam,

          I’m female and haven’t at all experienced a lifetime of shame, fear, guilt, or trepidation, largely due to random luck I suspect, and I am both sorry and furious that some people do live with these emotions being frequent.  I’d frankly happily kill evil paedophiles who repeatedly sexually abuse young girls, though it’s not liberally or socially terribly acceptable to hold such an opinion, and the death penalty is outlawed in my country.

          I disagree with you about intentionally excluding groups of people from conversations, based on their religion, skin colour, gender, etc.  History has shown us this usually ends very badly.

        6. Marika

          Mrs Happy

          It has nothing to do with race, religion, gender etc. I think you know that. It has everything to do with attitude. In most contexts people will voluntarily exclude themselves based on certain attitudes. For instance, I’d never hang out at a right-wing political fundraiser.

          From time to time people (irrespective of race, gender, creed, colour) when it comes to the Internet do hang around places to repeatedly disagree with the site’s content. While they may have every right to do so (and certainly not always depending on the moderator), we have every right to question their motives for doing so.

          This is like social interaction 101.

      5. 6.3.5
        sylvana

        Adrian,

        I’m firmly behind you on this one. Both YAG and Tron are dismissing the victims, and are trying to turn this into a competition of who has it worst.

        Both are coming from the viewpoint of “How dare women make men feel even the tiniest bit of the same fear for their own safety that women have been experiencing for ages”.

        Neither is showing the slightest acknowledgement  of the role their own gender played in this. Or the slightest signs of wanting to find an equally satisfying solution.

         

    4. 6.4
      Mrs Happy

      YAG,

      Your comment on using certain assets to further a career is very reasonable, but there are shades of grey here.   Better-looking people, tall men, slim women, white people, people with nice teeth and shiny hair and fashionable figures who dress well …. all are advantaged in the workplace with respect to both career progression and higher wages.   And one need not even dress on the edge of what is professional to show off one’s body, to reap these advantages.   Good looks, a personable nature, quick wit, smooth manners, impeccable social skills… they’re all advantages.

      A wise person uses whatever advantages and tools they have access to, in order to benefit themselves, get ahead and make their life easier – that’s a definition of intelligence.

      I do think there is a large difference between presenting as the above, and using sexuality in a more gross or direct way, to advance a career.   Is the pretty woman or tall man who is given a promotion, flaunting their sexuality?   No, though they are illustrating sexual/attractive features, and those are resulting in career gain.

      As long as humans unconsciously flock to symmetrical clear faces, healthy beauty, and tall strong dominant men, and while white races have more power, the playing field will not be level.   Evolution is a slow process, so don’t hold your breath about your last sentence.

      Fairness/a level playing field is such a weird, somewhat childish concept.   Hanging around kids, I’m often stuck by their cries of “that’s not fair”.   It’s as though we are born with a sense of fairness, and only as we travel the decades do we realise, actually, life is not at all fair; and then we can start to question, why should we think life should be fair?   The playing field has never, in the complete history of all life on earth, been level, so it’s illogical to think it should be so now or in the future.

      1. 6.4.1
        Emily, to

        Mrs. Happy,

        The playing field has never, in the complete history of all life on earth, been level, so it’s illogical to think it should be so now or in the future.

        I could not agree more. The playing field has never been level for anyone, man or woman. Life is not a meritocracy. Assholes, the less competent and less deserving get ahead all the time.   So use whatever you have.  

        1. S.

          @ Emily, to

          So use whatever you have.

          Interesting! I support others in using whatever they have, but I can’t and won’t use whatever *I* have. Remember, I’m the one turned on more by kindness. 🙂

          The playing field has never been level, but there are lines I can’t and won’t cross to get ahead. I live and let live so others can do what is best for them. Just that’s not what’s best for me. That’s why I’m a strong but a not-financial-successful woman. 😉 But I’m happy in my skin and live well with the consequences of my choices. I’m sure others can too. That’s all that matters.

        2. Lynx

          I’ve been mulling over this idea of how women “should” dress for a while. My 19-year old daughter has a lot of advantages: beautiful but not obsessed with her looks (doesn’t even wear makeup). Zero drama. Smart but not show-offy about it. Tall, shapely, major cleavage (which she did not inherit from me!)

          As a college student, she mostly slops around in t-sheets and sweat pants. Recently, she posted an Instagram photo that caused a major kerfuffle – she was wearing a bathing suit top and showing lots of skin. She got reamed out by a relative for looking trashy and told it would diminish her credibility.

          It seems to me women are given two diametrically opposing messages. On the one hand, from the youngest age, we’re told it’s vitally important to look attractive (think Disney princesses).

          But on the other hand, wearing anything that’s at all sexy is distracting and unprofessional.

          What’s a woman to do?

        3. Emily, to

          S.,
          Interesting! I support others in using whatever they have, but I can’t and won’t use whatever *I* have.  
          I was thinking of a time I got laid off from a job even though I came in before someone else and was doing a good job, but she went to their church. That was her advantage. You have to be one of them, and if you’re not, they won’t  move you forward. That’s true in any job. But if there are other ways to become one of them … who am I judge?  
            That’s why I’m a strong but a not-financial-successful woman.
          I’m much the same way. I’m not particularly ambitious and I’ve come to the conclusion that there is no dream job for me. My dream would be not having a job.

        4. Emily, to

          Lynx,

          She got reamed out by a relative for looking trashy and told it would diminish her credibility.

          What it a female relative or a male relative? It’s been my experience that women are by far harder on other women than men when it comes to flaunting appearance. In the work place, women can be brutal to attractive women even if they are dressing and acting conservatively. It’s a jealousy response if the attractive women are getting male attention, even if it’s from men the other women don’t want .

        5. Lynx

          @Emily, to: Yes, a female relative was vocal to her about it, although a male relative had this reaction: “She’s so pretty she doesn’t have to do that”.

          His remark was especially interesting to me, because of the assumption she was doing it for male attention… which was not her intent.

          As as no-drama naturally pretty girl who genuinely likes guys (as in, is comfortable with male energy, gets along well with platonic male friends), she’s always gotten lots of male attention, knows it, doesn’t need it to feed her ego.

          If anything, her motivations were more along the fashionista lines, and mimicking Insta celebs. That adds another layer: the youngest female billionaire is Kylie Jenner…not exactly someone from a modest family.

        6. S.

          You have to be one of them, and if you’re not, they won’t  move you forward.

          I’m never one of them, who ever ‘they’ are.  Never have been.  Not sure at this point I want to be.

          I’m ambitious, a natural leader but in a very female-centered, non-left brain way.  I am still finding my tribe and I do have a dream job but like my future partner there aren’t a lot jobs/partners that are the right fit.  Fortunately, I’m enjoying the ride. 🙂 It’s about the journey and so far I feel mine has been a life well-spent.  The partner is the icing but I’m already eating the cake. 🙂

          So maybe that’s what I have? What I can ‘use’? My groundedness in being different and the strength in that.  Once I stopped trying to fit my curves in a square hole (lol!), I found it speaks to people.  I’ll get there in my own way.  I remember Toni Morrison talking about writing about what she wanted, that she stood at the border claimed her writing as the center and let others move over to where she was. She is not your typical writer.  But that is her brilliance.

          I’m claiming my type of leadership as center, my type of ambition.  And people are moving to recognize it.  Slowly but surely.  🙂

        7. Emily, to

          Lynx,

          As as no-drama naturally pretty girl who genuinely likes guys (as in, is comfortable with male energy, gets along well with platonic male friends), she’s always gotten lots of male attention, knows it, doesn’t need it to feed her ego.

          I don’t think there’s anything wrong with wanting male attention and (let’s be honest) you get more of it as a young woman (for the most part), so why not enjoy it? Ride the train as long as possible.  🙂 If that’s the only motivation a young woman has, that’s not good but I would imagine most also have career goals, friends, hobbies, etc.

      2. 6.4.2
        Emily, to

        Hi S.,
        I’m never one of them, who ever ‘they’ are.  Never have been.  Not sure at this point I want to be.
        The in crowd is what I was referring to.  Every place I’ve worked has had a group of people who were being promoted or given certain privileges that the non-in-crowd didn’t get. One lady in the in-crowd retired. She got 2 lunches (one with upper level management) and a cake. A non in-crowd guy retired. He got almost no recognition.
        I remember Toni Morrison talking about writing about what she wanted, that she stood at the border claimed her writing as the center and let others move over to where she was. She is not your typical writer.  But that is her brilliance.
        I like that idea. All of the really interesting artists … writers, actors, musicians, etc., have always been uniquely their own people. That’s why someone like Elvis, for example, is so often imitated. His voice, look and body language were distinctive. There was nobody like him.

    5. 6.5
      sylvana

      YAG,

      the truly pathetic part about women using their sexuality and physical assets to advance their careers is that they were able to do so to begin with.

      Let that sink in for a moment. Talking about men completely reeking of desperation. Take it from the sex addict: Have some pride, at least.

      You’re once again completely insulting men by claiming that they are pathetic, desperate creatures who are led by their dicks.

      As for men now being afraid… I find it very interesting to see that you (through mentioning your friends) as well as Tron are completely dismissing the fact that women fear men because men could pose a physical threat to them. Yet, on the other hand, poor men are the victims, because women could pose a threat to them in other ways.

      A woman fearing a man could destroy her life with physical violence =  women are being hysterical.

      A man fearing a woman could destroy his life with a false accusation, etc. = women are outrageous! Men are being victimized.

      So it’s ok for men to live in fear of women and the damages they could, potentially do. But not ok for women to live in fear of men, and the damages they could potentially do?

       

  7. 7
    Paula

    Lynx – diametrically opposing messages – in my experience (and I’m now age 50) it was always, and still is, the women who give other women the hardest time over being attractive but not  too attractive.   It starts young, with your girlfriends criticizing you if they notice you get too much attention from boys.   Then in adulthood, if you look to well groomed and put together in the office, come the snide comments about using looks to get ahead.   And what’s really twisted about all of this is that men just sit back and laugh that we women can be the best at our own undoing.

    BTW I hope you had your daughter’s back and told your relative in no uncertain terms that what she said is not at all ok.

  8. 8
    Lynx

    @Paula: fortunately, we have a communicative family and so we were all able to use the incident as a launching pad for a broader (ha!) discussion about this murky issue. It was helpful for my daughter to learn that, yes, some people will interpret ‘sexy’ pics in a negative way; it was helpful for my relative to learn that just because a woman has body confidence doesn’t mean she’s morally bankrupt.

    Truthfully, I might feel differently if my daughter didn’t consistently prioritize her non-appearance strengths. Her identity is founded on being a science nerd student athlete who’s got a gift for puns (sadly). It would be much more challenging for me if looks were all she had going for her.

  9. 9
    Fleurdl123

    I wonder what regular guys (as compared to some of our fringe regulars) feel about MeToo in a work setting? I like hugging coworkers (male and female) during birthday celebrations or to express sympathy, and I like people to hug me.  Is compassion and common sense going to be trampled by paranoia?

    And Adrian, I understood your post.

  10. 10
    sylvana

    I think that one of the biggest problems is that the majority of men and women at fault are aware that what they’re doing is wrong, but simply do not care. Or simply refuse to see their behavior as inappropriate. All the ones who like to blame the victim fall into this category.

    And then we have a bunch of good men worrying that they might accidently have crossed the line at one point. Or might, in the future, end up crossing the line without meaning to.

    The third group is likely secretively relieved, because they now have an excuse for not having any skills with women.

    It’s the second group who is affected by this the most, I think. Sad part is, these men are the ones who will back off when in doubt, and are therefore not truly part of what the movement is about, even if there were times when they pushed a little harder.

    All one can advise them is to try and be a little more respectful. And to use their main brains to err on the side of caution in certain situations. Aka: Don’t take advantage of the totally drunk chick. And if a woman shows signs of being uncomfortable, back off. If she loses interest in a man because of it, she wasn’t worth his time anyway.

    But otherwise, they can keep doing what they’re doing.

     

  11. 11
    Marika

    Oh dear me, Tron. You are really just here to argue and cause dissent, aren’t you? You completely took that one part of my comment out of the context of the entire rest of my post. What exactly are you trying to achieve here?

    1. 11.1
      sylvana

      Marika,

      It’s a desperate cry for help. Haven’t you figured out yet that Tron would truly rather much not be MGTOW?

      Yes, MGTOW is a way of coping for all of those guys. But it’s actually not helping Tron cope.

  12. 12
    Tron Swanson

    Not a cry for help, and I’m coping just fine thanks…as I already said…

  13. 13
    Sea

    Well, sexual aggression performed by women and done onto men is seen as far less dangerous as the opposite, because women are usually weaker and thinner than men are.  No one is going to take me serious when I say that I don’t like unwanted sexual attraction, being faced with ”are you gay?” statements when they realize the women in question are attractive.

    Growing up as a kid, I used to have to spend time with the daughters of my mother’s girlfriends, and when our mothers around, they would take me to their room/basement when  their parents weren’t around and they’d’d touch me in inappropriate places although it was plain to see that I wasn’t into it, but they still went ahead with it in any case.

    Then I was a teenager I had this female friend who’d flash me her breasts and butt and would always, always, talk about sex non-stop.

    In school, I used to have girls touching my privates in the middle of the classroom with the teacher right in front of us, they’d show me their panties,  whereas the other guys were sexually aggressive I was pretty chill, so I would have girls coming up to my table and leaning over until I’d see their breasts and then they’d ask me if I’m gay, while posing in a very sexual way.

    When I was 17, a new girl to the classroom just goes up to me on the very first day sits next to me with the teacher right there and tells me what she wants to do with me(sexually) that I can ”bang” her in anyway I can, and that I don’t even have to use a condom because she’s clean and she wants to ”feel” me.

    And I’m not even attractive; I’m only 5’8”

    so you can imagine what my friends, who are male models working for calvin klein and such brands have to endure on a daily basis.

  14. 14
    Sea

    In any case, there are ways to make women feel comfortable and safe about this whole thing.

    I don’t approach women, not even when they’re giving me blatant signals of attraction. I don’t flirt with women I know, not unless they are the ones to flirt with me first and then I proceed with caution.

    I don’t ask women out on dates. I hang out with women in groups of male and female friends, and then I wait for women to ask me out, and when I do go out on a date I only pay for me.

    I don’t want the woman to feel like she owes me anything because I paid for her share of the date.

    My first college girlfriend approached me. I was amazed at how attractive the majority of the women who were going to my college were, and I felt that I was out of my depth anway, that the women were out of my league(and they were) so I would have never made a move on any of them in any case.

    I would look at the girls for a few seconds and then I would pretend I wasn’t looking. Many would smile and play with their hair, check me out and so on, expecting me to approach them but I never did.

    My first college girl was also expecting me to approach her, but after 2 weeks of awkwardly waiting for me to do anything, she realized I wasn’t going to do it, so she approached me, started a conversation, asked me to go with her to this fund-raising activity she had scheduled with her friends, asked for my phone number and facebook, and then she was the first one to call me/text me, she asked me out, and then she was the one who escalated every social encounter.

    Now, I was wondering why such an attractive woman would go through all of that work for little old me, but then it hit me that the college I was attending was 90% female, with some of the men being gay, others being in a relationship(and being loyal) and other guys were overweight/facially unattractive, which resulted in very attractive women having to be socially and sexually proactive if they wanted to get a boyfriend.

    Now I’m in my late 20s and I still do the same. I go to parks, nightclubs, bookstores or even inside the bus I act the same way.

    I look at a woman I’m attracted to for a couple of seconds until she looks at me, then when she looks at me I look away. I do it again for her to realize I’m attracted to her and then I expect her to approach me.Sometimes I get approached, sometimes I don’t. It doesn’t matter to me either way.

    I  look young for my years, I dress young, and since this is a college town there majority of the women are young, attractive, and looking for boyfriends, whereas the few handfuls of men who are eligible are either playing the field or in a relationship, increasing my chances of being approached.

    Am I a beta male?

    You can bet your farm I am. I play it safe, and everyone wins in this scenario. Women are given the opportunity to select the men they want instead of picking from among the men who approach them, and I can chill knowing that the woman is attracted to me, seriously attracted to me and that she isn’t going on a date with me because she wants a free meal(I don’t pay for dates) or because she chose me from the guys who approached her.

  15. 15
    Sea

    ”I wonder what regular guys (as compared to some of our fringe regulars) feel about MeToo in a work setting? I like hugging coworkers (male and female) during birthday celebrations or to express sympathy, and I like people to hug me.  Is compassion and common sense going to be trampled by paranoia?”

    I don’t talk to women I’m working with. I don’t touch them, I don’t hug them. I’m there to make money, not to make friends, and I don’t feel comfortable talking to women because these days you gotta play it safe. There are people out there who will lie to get attention, money etc etc.

    I especially talking to women at my workplace who are extremely attractive. I will be cordial, but I will keep my distance at all times from them.

     

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