Why Men Need to Court Women Again

I've been a dating coach since 2003.

I've been a dating coach for smart, strong, successful women since 2010.

The only reason I focused on that very specific demographic is because they comprised 80% of my audience. I didn't seek them. They found me, and I catered my offerings to empower them to understand men and make healthier relationship choices.

I get a lot of pushback from women who bristle at what I do. Their main complaint: MEN ARE THE PROBLEM. STOP TELLING ME WHAT I SHOULD DO DIFFERENTLY.

My reply is always the same: you'll have a much greater success by changing your own beliefs, actions and reactions than by trying to change the male gender.

I mean that - but that doesn't mean that men are off the hook, by any stretch of the imagination. A huge part of my business is simply telling women to avoid men who don't treat them with proper respect and invest time only in relationship-oriented guys.

You'll have a much greater success by changing your own beliefs, actions and reactions than by trying to change the male gender.

Does that leave a lot fewer men in the dating pool? Sure does. But there's no point in trying to convince a man who doesn't want to get married that he should or trying to convince a guy who thinks you should sleep with him on the first date that he should court you properly. Just throw those fish back in the sea.

Which is why I was heartened to read this blog post from Matt Walsh. In it, he implores men to "man up" and court women properly, with intention.

"If you’re hanging out with a woman and you feel like you might be into her, tell her. Call her on the phone. Take her out on a date. Say the words: “I’d like to take you out.” No ambiguity. Plan the date yourself. Women want you to be decisive. Lose the whole “so waddaya wanna do tonight?” schtick. Take charge. Pick her up at 7. Pay for the meal. Have a conversation with her. Go mini golfing or something. Go somewhere. Open the door for her. Put your phone away. Open up to her. Share your ideas, your dreams, your fears. Get to know her. Pursue her. Pursue her. Invest yourself in the process, as scary and unsure as it may seem. Take a risk, gentlemen. Go out on a limb for once. Be purposeful. Be desirable. Be a man."

No argument here. If my business was to give advice to men, that's what I'd be telling them. There is so little competition from men out there that it's easy to stand out just by being a good guy who takes control, follows through, and does what he says.

Now the reason I don't post things like this more is because there's nothing for women to learn from "Yes! Men need to change!" You know what I mean? It may be true, it may be validating, but it's not useful or transformational.

Your big takeaway from this is simply that you should hold out for a man who does (most of) the right things. If he doesn't do the right things, he's not your man.

Join our conversation (388 Comments).
Click Here To Leave Your Comment Below.

Comments:

  1. 1
    starthrower68

    Evan, I think the major challenge is in getting men and women to stop with the “well, we may do this but they do that” mindset.  Stepping up for change always starts within ourselves, as you say. I’d like to be more optimistic that it will happen but I think we’re too far down the rabbit hole.  

  2. 2
    starthrower68

    Btw, Evan, major Kudos to you for using Matt’s blog as your own. I am positive you would not see eye to eye with Matt on politics or faith but you are willing to use that upon which you do agree. There’s very little willingness to do that in this day and age. You are setting a wonderful example and I applaud you.

  3. 3
    Androgynous

    Personally, and this is just my opinion only. The horse has long bolted and the genie left the bottle a long time ago. Asking men to court women traditionally in this age of casual hook-ups, one night stands, f-buddies, Friends with benefits, No strings attached…….well you know. If men are given the option of not needing to put in any effort for sex and female companionship, why should they put in any effort ? And why should they take those women seriously, who now claim they want traditional courtship when they (the women) were perfectly happy with the free love lifestyle previously ?

    1. 3.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      I’m glad you said that. Here’s how it’s going to go:

      Women who read this blog are going to show men how to treat them and stop putting up with bullshit.
      Men who are not serious about relationships are going to bolt for women who have low self-esteem and no boundaries.
      That leaves the men who are serious about relationships courting my readers
      And it leaves all the women who refuse to have self-esteem and boundaries in the exact same place they are right now.

      My point: SOME women make men put in an effort and reap the rewards. The majority don’t and then complain that men have sex without any desire to commit. I’m doing my best to turn that ship around.

      1. 3.1.1
        Karmic Equation

        Delete “low self-esteem” from your answer and I’d agree with you 100%.
         
        It’s wrong to assume that women who have NSA sex have low self-esteem. Do you believe that men who have NSA sex have low self-esteem?
         
        It’s equivalent to the fallacy that only men who are “commitment-oriented” have good character. Wanting commitment or not, does not confer high-character or high self-esteem. It’s simply a lifestyle choice (or more accurately “phase”). An analogy that may resonate better is that those people who want children are not of higher character/have higher self-esteem than those who don’t want them. It’s a choice and not character- or esteem-defining.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          The point – as you should know by now – is not that you have low self-esteem for having NSA sex, but rather that you have low self-esteem for having NSA sex when doing so DOESN’T MAKE YOU HAPPY.

          My entire business is based on women who are shocked that men can sleep with them without calling, caring, or committing.

        2. Karmic Equation

          “Naive” would be the more accurate adjective then.

        3. Samantha Riley

          Spot on Karmic Equation. I agree with Evan said perfectly except: where does low-self esteem come from? And do men who have NSA sex have low self-esteem? Couldn’t agree more with your post.

        4. Jenn

          Samantha,
          In this case, low self-esteem comes from a woman trying to have sex like a man, and then getting hurt because she develops an attachment to the men she has casual hookups with. She gets hurt because she doesn’t fully understand why they don’t reciprocate her feelings. Which then makes her question her worth.

      2. 3.1.2
        Noquay

        I think we teach others how to treat us. By settling for NSA, casual, partners that are financially or emotionally unstable, don’t take care of themselves, are just not into you, when such things go against your values, we are giving them a message that we are OK with their behavior. Most folk do not go through the process of self introspection, self improvement unless forced to do so by repeatedly being shown their behavior is not OK. We strong, smart, chix also have to understand that not everyone, in every place is going to be OK with our success and strength. There are places where women such as us will never find a partner and we need to either leave or be alone until we are in a place to leave. Really have learned this these past days following my dads passing. Thought I must be a horrid person here in my redneck mountain town but soon as I was in my home bioregion, was asked for a dinner date immediately. Not always us so much as our location.

        1. Henriette

          So sorry for the loss of your Dad, Noquay.

        2. Adam

          Noquay said:

          “I think we teach others how to treat us. By settling for NSA, casual, partners that are financially or emotionally unstable, don’t take care of themselves, are just not into you, when such things go against your values, we are giving them a message that we are OK with their behavior. …”

          Noquay, you are one very wise woman.You completely understand what is going on and your statement can explain many facets of male behavior. I would add, that when you put up with this, you are not only send the message it is OK, you are encouraging this.

          When you reward bad behavior what do you get? MORE BAD BEHAVIOR. You get it? It isn’t that hard to understand. If women reject relationship minded guys who treat them well and go with guys who are just using them for NSA sex, what are you women going to get? More men using you for sex. What you reward you get more of. If you sleep with bad boys, players and man whores, you will get more and more men adopting these behaviors and fewer and fewer men willing to court women, because we think, look at who they are sleeping with, obviously they don’t want to be courted.

      3. 3.1.3
        ann

        thank you Evan!   🙂   
         

      4. 3.1.4
        AmicusC

        that’s good that “women who read this blog are going to show men how to treat them and stop putting up with bullshit” but maybe these oh so successful independent women should have made finding a husband a priority sooner. 

        the problem with your theory is the demographic you are targeting. why are successful men going to waste time trying to court old women? they cant have kids, they are not as attractive as they once were. these women were fine when they were reaping the benefits of the new rules but now that they are old and undesirable they want to go back to the old rules. I don’t see what they have to offer that any self respecting man should forgo a younger more attractive fertile wife? 

        1. Julia

          Why do you assume that young and fertile women want old men?

          (most of us don’t) 

        2. Lynn (the other one!)

          Oh, Amicus. What a limited view you have of us older women! If all you’re interested in is fertility, then that sure makes your life easy. Anyone with those eggs still a-ripening will do. Compatibility, intelligence, morals, principles, character, wisdom, sense of humor –  chuck ’em all, dude. Someone somewhere will appreciate your lack of standards.

        3. KC

          Older doesn’t equate to “less attractive”.
          At least not in my case.  I’ve gone from an obese, plain, introverted wallflower in my teens-20’s-30’s to a gorgeous, smart, strong (physically and mentally) woman.  Just because I can’t procreate, doesn’t make me any less valuable or desirable.  It’s just taken me some time to get the Old KC out of my brain and realize that I am WORTH courting and not chasing men who just want to use me.  I still have a lot to learn about men and dating, but I’m learning more and more each day.

        4. Annie

          I am very surprised by this intervention… I didn’t read no where that these women were cougar… Or young men blood suckers. It’s a very profiling way to approach the whole situation. As humans we are free to pursue what ever we want at any given time of our lives. Carrier-love-family? There’s no preferred order or right order to achieve any of this and several circumstances can come in play and affect which we are going after first.

        5. Yogagurl

          You have a very small minded view of relationships.  Reading this I would guess you’ve never had a really loving relationship ever.  Have you?  One that is based on friendship, fun, giving.  Because if you did you’d understand that love can and does happen even to women over 40…even way beyond.  It’s not all about youth, beauty and being able to have babies. Relationships are and can be so much more

          Relationships are not all about a barter.  They are sometimes actually based on friendship and companionship. And that is what many seek when they seek someone around their same age.

           

          And by the way some of us are still very attractive!  Maybe not as as our 20s but attractive enough.  I know I am. But that is not the point. The point is to find connection, companionship and friendship. Something I am betting you know little about.

           

           

           

        6. Ann L. Wilson

          How sad that your image of older women is they are undesirable? You must be a teen-aged boy to have such a narrow view of women. That’s ok.  We have no more use for you than to carry our groceries to

          our car or to mow our lawn. Someday you will learn. Maybe.

      5. 3.1.5
        Miranda

        I absolutely MADE a man date me! I finally learned to not put up with the text whenever you want something game, and sleeping around on the first date. If they weren’t up to actually courting then moved on. The right man will definitely put in the effort.  So accepting nothing less than that weeds out the ones who aren’t serious.

      6. 3.1.6
        Tricia

        Soooooooo true!!! I like your thinking. Thanks for being a man about it all. Wink wink

      7. 3.1.7
        Brandon

        Men take longer to commit to things like marriage because of the risk of divorce. Divorce these days is devastating to men and more women intiate divorce then men (dont believe me look it up) A woman can divorce a man take half or more of everything he owns, take his house, his car, his children, and claim alimony and child support payments that are so high he is forced to move back in with his parents. All this catering to women will get you nowhere. Women have it better than ever these days. Maybe instead of blindly writing this article trying to understand why men wont commit to women you could have looked up facts about divorce and asked other men how the family courts treated them.

        1. TJ

          Absolutely! Even with a prenuptial men lose.. Mens time with his Children is now called parenting time! Financial devastating ect takes years to fix.. and women wonder why some  good men don’t  want to commit long term. Oh yeah can’t wait to do that again!

          I met my next x wife a few times.

    2. 3.2
      Julia

      I think its a really silly assumption that men only want sex and somehow “put up” with relationships in order to get it. In my experience there are plenty of men who are looking to be happily coupled, they still court women.

      1. 3.2.1
        Androgynous

        If you read my comments Julia, I never said that I assume all men just want sex. I mentioned companionsip as well. Those men you mentioned who still court women……the women they court are the ones who would not provide the kind of relationship a man wanted unless he proved his worth, or if that sounds too mercenary, proved his interest and committment to the idea of a relationship with her. These women are anything but inconsistent. In other words, they are not going to be a good girlfriend to any man who treats her in a casual perfuntory way. If a woman is willing to do that for one man but is not willing to do that for another, then it is hard for men to treat her requests seriously.

        1. Julia

          I guess I am not fully understanding your point. How does a man know how a woman has acted in relationships with other men in the past?

          The way I always proceeded in dating was to be warm and friendly and affectionate with any guy I was dating and interested in. If he stepped up, then great, if not there were more to come. I never with held any of the positive experiences he might get if we were in a committed relationship. You can’t just hold back and wait to be yourself. 

        2. Noquay

          Yep, a woman may treat one man a certain way and another completely differently although both court her. This is because she does not feel attracted to or compatible with one of them and no amount of courting will fix that.

      2. 3.2.2
        Androgynous

        Another clarification too. Men are either looking for just sex or sex within a relationship or a relationship involving sex. A relationship without the sex is just a friendship. In my experience and I’d expect the experience of many other people, men don’t actively go out of their way to cultivate just friendships with women. Friendships with women just happen and are often the result of circumstances.

        1. Jenn

          Androgynous,
          I understand your perspective, and wish to point out that it’s not true that a relationship which doesn’t involve sex is purely platonic. People do develop and sustain romantic feelings for each other without sex being a part of their relationship. True courtship is like that (courting is different than dating). Although I do agree that most opposite sex friendships don’t usually exist without at least one party feeling attracted to the other on some level.

    3. 3.3
      Fusee

      Androgynous, the average or median dating/mating behavior has changed, but it does not mean that other less popular behaviors and mindsets do not coexist simultaneously.
       
      When I was dating I was definitely in the minority with standards way more strict than “the local current average”, and yet it always worked fine for me. I’m not saying I never felt frustrated (I did!), but I progressively learned to assert my values and do a graceful exit when the behavior displayed did not impress me. I just had to become a little more patient and work on my communication style because it’s a little harder to assert your needs than to pretend to be the “cool” one who does not give a f*ck.
       
      Each time I upped my standards I ended up with a better man! It’s counter-intuitive, but I can guarantee you that it’s the reward for asking for (and giving) more. You do get more.
       
      I have several friends with even stricter standards (keeping sex for marriage) who also found great partners. The (non-religious, non-virgin) husband of one of them waited for three years to have sex with her on their wedding night. He loved her that much and knew it was that important to her.
       
      There will always be people – men and women – who will follow their own principles, regardless of what the crowd does, and regardless of the potential consequences, and there will always be people who will admire those who stick to their values. It’s true for just anything, not just intimate relationships.

      1. 3.3.1
        starthrower68

        Fusee, I would even take that one step further, in that if that is the value that you hold, you will feel better about yourself for standing even if it’s tough.  It’s not that one will never know disappointment, but the guy that isn’t interested in more than sex will bolt when you say no.  He’s gone, history. You never have to deal with him again. But you do have to live with you. And each time you stand for what you value, it gets a little easier. 🙂

        1. Jenn

          I totally agree, Starthrower. It’s far better to stand on principle waiting for the one who will uphold your standards, and live a life that’s consistent with your values, even if it does take longer to find him! It’s so much better than just giving up.

      2. 3.3.2
        Jenn

        “I have several friends with even stricter standards (keeping sex for marriage) who also found great partners. The (non-religious, non-virgin) husband of one of them waited for three years to have sex with her on their wedding night. He loved her that much and knew it was that important to her.”
        This is exactly what I’m all about. Thank you, Fusee! 🙂
          

        1. Roberto

          No woman is worth that much of a wait.  It just proves once again that women are all about themselves.

  4. 4
    Sunflower

    Thank you!  Thank you!  Thank you!  Every woman can relate to this.  Every woman wants to be valued and treated with respect.  It’s starts with us ladies!  Draw those lines in the sand.  

  5. 5
    Taylor

    Evan is right that when you make changes in your own decisions, turning the boat of the culture will become easier. I’ve followed a lot of his guidelines and meet good men; now some of them were dealing with bad separations, but they put in the effort. 

    There will also be women with low self esteem who tolerate bad men who run all over them. But you have to decide NOT to be one of them. That is our choice; bad men don’t do this. It’s not always easy and you may go dateless for a long time!  

    When you have boundaries for how you want to be treated in any situation, there will be people who respect them. That goes for dating and life in general. 

  6. 6
    starthrower68

    I think, often, we have a tendency to forget Evan is writing to women with a specific set of issues she wants to change. He writes in generalities for the sake of expediency.  In all the years I’ve been a reader, I have never seen Evan say that all women are a certain way or all men are a certain way.  It seems that would be inherently understood by the reader.  I’m guessing Evan understands that it is. I have seen him say more times than I can count that yes, there are good men who want actual relationships and there are women who are perfectly happy having NSA sex.   

    1. 6.1
      Gabri'el

      I completely agree and…
       
      THANK YOU Starthrower68, for always being a light of positivity on this blog. I’ve noticed that no matter how hard the angry and hurt men or women start throwing their bitterness and gender bashing around, you always keep the comments section from completely succumbing to just negativity, I can not speak for anyone else but I appreciate the light you bring to this blog. 
       

  7. 7
    Katt

    I have boundaries and standards and when guys don’t like it they disappear quickly.
    Good riddance is all I can say!
    Man up ladies, stop giving these NSA, FWB, ONS and F-buddy losers a free ride to nowhere.
    All you have to do is say NO. How hard is it really to have some healthy self respect and workable boundaries.

    Evan, your message has got through to this girl loud and clear. When more of the clueless women out there wake up and realise their own future and happiness is up to their own good choices they can turn their lives around. Its just too easy to take a month or two to see how a guy is treating you (without having to have to sex) and if he’s not stepping up to the plate, ‘bye bye, nice knowing you, no hard feelings but this isn’t working for me’.
    It’s not hard at all.

    1. 7.1
      Julia

      Sometimes a FWB does work for you though and you know what, sometimes they will even pseudo-court. I had men I was just seeing casually still take me away for the weekends, take me to nice restaurants. Not all FWB/NSA is just about late night hookup. So please don’t tell other women what to do, do what works for you.

      1. 7.1.1
        Jenn

        But that’s the point: those involvements don’t work for most women, because they get too attached. And many times, they don’t see that they are just FWB. Many of them think they are “dating” because the guy is seeing and contacting them regularly. And you’re right, not all FWB/hookups are about late-night booty calls and I think that’s where the confusion lies with a lot of women. They think that because they are hanging out at each other’s houses regularly, or occasionally going to get coffee or see a movie in addition to sex, that it’s more than just a casual thing and that it’s leading somewhere. Not all women are able to recognize a fling for what it is.

        1. Julia

          For me, the way I was able to make it work is that I would have to understand that I would not want to be in a relationship with this particular man. I was casually seeing a man last fall, before I met my boyfriend that worked simply too much to ever be in a relationship with. I am not entirely sure he understood that. So the way I saw it, if he called me on a wednesday or thursday for a saturday night date and I wasn’t already booked, might as well. I actually enjoyed his company, we had a good time together but he wasn’t going to be my boyfriend and I would never choose him over a suitor that was available for a relationship. This is why paying attention to a man and his actions is so very important. We are not at their mercy, we choose them. I was fine to keep him as an intern, I understood that it would be temporary and there was definitely a better candidate for the job at Julia LLC.

          It seems like a lot of the women here need to assign a value to other women based on their actions. They believe that value is what gets a woman a boyfriend or not. It sounds like many would call me low value but the only person who matter, my boyfriend, values me quite highly. Don’t worry about what other people think, know your value and find a man you values you. The rest is just details.

        2. Katt

          Jenn, 
          I agree, for a lot of women who like a guy its difficult to see that it is only a FWB relationship. Many women think they are in a relationship as the guy is doing most things a boyfriend does, treats you well, calls regularly, takes you out and can even introduce you to family and friends. I’m not saying these are bad men as most of them aren’t, they’re just looking to get their needs met (including having sex) with a nice, normal, fun, attractive girl and who wouldn’t want that!
          At this stage the FWB relationship looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck but it’s not a duck and you’ve just spent six months or more having great sex and a fun time with a guy who will never be your boyfriend and who already knows that it’s not going to lead to a future that includes marriage & kids.
          If the woman is fine with this and can separate her feelings and not get hurt when it ends, that’s good and she can move on to the next guy. 
          If, on the other hand the woman is looking for a boyfriend leading to marriage, waiting for a few months to see how you both feel before having sex is the best way to go. 
          Not getting emotionally or sexually involved for up to a couple of months is not a big deal in the long run and can save a lot of heartbreak.
          How much better are you going to feel if you can exercise a little restraint before jumping into something that, at the end of the day isn’t what you really want. 

        3. Jenn

          I totally agree with what you’re saying about not being at a guy’s mercy. You seem like a very self-aware person, and I think that’s the difference with you (and myself, too). Too many women are so desperate to be in a relationship that they accept the status quo, even if they’re not happy. You seem like you’re very aware of what you will and will not accept from a man (I’m that way, too). And I completely agree about watching what a man does rather than just listening to what he says! That is probably the single most important thing that women can’t always seem to wrap their heads around. Guys do sometimes send mixed signals, but for the most part they are pretty straightforward if you know what to look for.

    2. 7.2
      AllisWell

      I have been reading/following Evans site for quite a while, but never commented until now. I agree with you Katt, Girls or rather LADIES- MAN Up!Any good dude would man up if they think you are worth it!
       Women who have set a standard would meet a guy who are up or willing to fill the standard you have set. There are guys who are always willing to pursue you. Trust me on this!
        I’d been pursued and pursued, I’d been chased and chased, hunted even stalked lol I’d been engaged twice both men I did not sleep with even though they slept with other women before me. (had lived in partners too)
       In my 20s guys who courted me and I dated me wants to marry me ( as if I have a stamp on my forehead that I want you to marry me!) which brought out a problem  for me cause I am only looking for a boyfriend during that time and I would not even want to hear the word marriage as it freezees my brain and I could not function very well upon hearing it. I don’t know why these men wants to marry me? I still don’t know why..(even on dating sites which scares me, one chat and they think I am the one for them. Crazy. Bad crazy).. maybe because I’d set a standard that I only date valuable men who are up to my standard ohh and they’re not plenty but they are around even those arseholes to other women would be a gentleman around a woman who has standard and values her self. I am one. I don’t tolerate bad behaviours and lack of manners. If they lack it I’m off. And no one can stop me from leaving. 
      I have nothing against those who sleep around. I think they’re cool.. they can do it. But its just not for me.  
      Note: I did not accept any gifts from the guys I dated or courted me. I always offered to share tabs whenever we are out on a date but they all declined, which I am glad. Since I can’t give these guys who courted me the marriage they were looking for.. I stayed single till my mid 20s until I felt ready to talk about marriage if ever it arises again. And it did! that is why I was engaged twice but since I don’t put up with bad behaviour I broke it off- one was prejudice- he hates Indians and Jews (I don’t think I’d like to raised children with a man who will teach my “own kids” intolerance) I only learned about it later in the relationship, and he’s jealous. I’m a Catholic by the way but I have great respect to other peoples belief or lack of it. Hence I demand it.
       I am inloved with these guys I was engaged with but they trying to change me which I don’t like. I accepted and learned to love their annoying habits and thier boringness- both  are wondering why I am constantly happy and both think I shoud lessen my cheekiness and fun ways, I am a light hearted gal who always is surprised why they are mad over small things that I think they should not get mad about. 

    3. 7.3
      Brandon

      Right because you want men to pay up and buy you the ring and expensive wedding. Its ok though they will find someone else who wants to and doesnt demand him to sign a legally binding contract (legal prostitution)

  8. 8
    Jane

    I just read Matt Walsh’s bog post, it almost brought me to tears! I am so happy that a MAN gets it and understands both women and men so perfectly. Thank you Evan!

  9. 9
    JB

    Let’s take a look at the last 3 women (all in their 40’s) I asked out on a dinner date and they ACCEPTED after an online “meet & greet” that I thought went well………. All 3 of these women I would of gladly courted btw.  2 of them canceled by text within 2 hrs before the date. 1 saying “she wasn’t going to be in the area”….lol Huh?? But you made a date and live 10 minutes from me!! The other canceled saying an 8p date for dinner & a movie was too late on a Friday night. Huh?? The third, bless her heart met me for dinner and tried to “friend zone” me by text the next day. At least she showed up. Hey, dinner is dinner! No, I’m going to be her “friend”. But I did (just to be funny) text her back and say “I don’t suppose there’s any “benefits” to being your “friend”.  I was of course kidding and she laughed.
    I’m fricken 50 yrs old. I don’t “hang out” with women. There’s no FWB’s, ONS’s or F-buddy’s in our age range believe me! The games are the same. I ask them out they either show up or they don’t. It doesn’t matter whether you call them or text them because 99% of the time when you actually DIAL the phone they don’t answer anyway or return the call with a text!! That’s “courting” for you in the 45-60 crowd……. just sayin…….

    1. 9.1
      Trixie

      Make better choices in women use criteria other than hotness and boob size.

      1. 9.1.1
        JB

        Ummmmm…… I don’t remember mentioning any of these women’s looks in my post? Are you saying that women that aren’t “hot” and have a flat chest don’t flake out on men and that’s who we all should be emailing. Because that’s what I got from that immature statement. For the record the 3 were varying degrees of attractiveness and “boob size”. I’m attracted to many different types of women so I don’t email just 1 type. I do however love a cute smile and that can be on ANY woman.

    2. 9.2
      Noquay

      JB
      Oh yes there are lots of dudes that want FWB and NSA non relationships. I am in my 50s and finally gave up on on line because I wasn’t meeting anyone that worked for me. Yep, two of those women were jerks, one wasn’t attracted. You dodged three bullets so pat yourself on the back. On line is 99% rejection/being rejected/blown off etc. Nature of the beast. I never blew anyone off , often drove up to 100 miles to meet as I live in a remote town with zero local dating prospects. What turned me off was the preponderance of guys totally dishonest about their appearance, state of health, and their lack of ability to maintain a long distance rship and often even support themselves. Most of these guys were in their 60s. Now, I focus my efforts on meeting IRL during the 3 months the racers/tourists are here. Meet fewer guys but also deal with less dishonesty. No ultra runner can lie about health, a tourist that is here for months can certainly support himself and what you see is what you get.

    3. 9.3
      Yogagurl

      Sorry for those experiences. Look like there should be better manners on both sides for sure.

       

  10. 10
    Chance

    It sounds like the type of men this guy is describing are the ones who are insecure rather than the alphas who refuse to commit.  Many of these guys may have been burned when they tried to ask girls on formal, proper dates when they were in the 18-25 age range when, frankly, being forward and formal doesn’t really work any better than being noncommittal (in many cases, it hurts their chances).  This is why PUA tactics appeal so much to guys in that age range – because it works on women their age. 
     
    What these types of men fail to realize is that women’s preferences change as they enter their late 20’s, and these men don’t adjust to their changing preferences. 

    1. 10.1
      Yogagurl

      Why does it have to be formal?   I think most people are more comfortable with casual at least in the beginning with a stranger.  I think the issue is whether the guy is making an effort in getting to know her and taking her out.

  11. 11
    JennLee

    Evan, how does a woman know if it is genuine courtship? I saw you and some others discussing the PUA community once or twice, and I had never heard of it so I looked into it and to me it is frightening. At first I thought it would be so much BS, but I watched some videos, and followed links to message boards and blogs and lurked. What is frightening is that it is not BS. I had the impression that it would be cheesy one liners and that the guys would be coming off as greasy. but instead, I saw that instead they were all about being just the opposite. Very adept in being charming without being too nice was what I noticed. They were in fact being exactly the type that most women will respond to. I think most women will have the attitude I did when first looking into it. We like to think that a PUA would have no chance with us, and sure, if we knew for sure that a guy was a PUA, we could be more prepared for it. But how would you know, if you are invited to a friend’s party, and some guy just starts talking to you, and your brain is happy with the way he is treating you, and before you know it, you are thinking, “WOW, finally a guy I can really talk to and relate to.” That’s what I saw in many of the videos I was watching. Being totally honest, I could see how not always but often, I would enjoy talking with the guy and even consider going on a date.

    On the message boards and blogs, I did learn that the vast majority of this ‘community” is men in their 20s and 30s. It is also not a small community and I did see several threads on message boards saying that the PUA community was now too large.

    This got me to thinking about some other things that I may mention in another more appropriate topic. But here, I think it is relevant to ask how you can tell fairly quickly that the guy is just being a well schooled player, and when he is genuinely courting you with long term interest? It would be good to be able to spot the players as quickly as possible, and looking onto the PUA community, I realized that we women may think we are good at spotting them, but i think the truth is, we are absolutely horrible at spotting the well schooled, or naturally charming ones. We tend to recognize them for what they are only through 20/20 hindsight.

    1. 11.1
      Chance

      I know you directed your question at Evan, but I thought I’d give a quick answer.  I wouldn’t worry too much about whether a guy is part of the PUA community or not because any man who knows how to talk to women understands what is effective in triggering attraction.  It’s something we learn from a young age growing up.  It’s a learned skill regardless, even if the guy doesn’t realize it.  Remember, men look for sex and find love – PUA or no PUA.

      1. 11.1.1
        JennLee

        Thanks Chance. I agree that it can be a learned skill through life experience or learned through the PUA community. I think looking into it triggered a few things in me. First, it seems to give me some understanding why some women say they prefer younger guys based on their experiences while interacting with them. I think these women meet a lot of these younger PUA’s and have some fun interacting with them, and compare that to organic approach of men their own age who did not learn PUA. I would not have thought that until looking into it, because again, I didn’t know anything about it and when you here pickup artist, you think of some greasy fast talking con artist that you can spot coming and going. Also, a lot of the guys on the message boards talk about practicing their game on older women.

        But then it got me to thinking about how even a good looking man with a lot going for him may be good at picking up women, and the issue is that the clock is ticking, and ever second you waste with somebody who isn’t going to marry you is a second that can be spent finding the one who will. Men don’t want to waste their resources on a woman that is going to reject them, and we women are no different. We don’t want to waste time with men who will never commit.

        As to the men look for sex and find love, sure that may be true but it worked a lot better for women when sex wasn’t so freely available and women could hold out longer. Ultimately that theory works best when the man is made to wait for marriage. He will invest himself heavily in finding a woman he does love so that he can have sex. I don’t believe that men used to just marry the first woman who smiled at them, just to get sex. I think sex was just less readily available so men had to make more of an effort to find a woman he truly cared about. He had to make it a focus of his younger years. Now they don’t have to. They can find sex easily, and put finding love on the back burner. I mean, what’s the notion here, that you will screw him so good that he will fall in love?

        So all I am really asking is what things you can look for that can tip you off in the first few months that it is a PUA that is simply investing some time into getting you into bed. I’m not sure there are any. I do like the idea of things going back to a more traditional framework where we didn’t just hang out, and didn’t just assume. I like the idea of men actually manning up and saying, “I want you to be my girlfriend. I want us to be exclusive. I want to see where this can go.” I like the idea of men actually introducing me as his girlfriend. I like the idea of men not assuming it is cool to spend nearly the entire evening at a party talking to other women when he took me to the party as his date. Even if it is a first or second date. If I invite a guy to a party, I would expect to act like his date and not spend the whole evening talking to other guys I know, or getting to know the ones I don’t know. Maybe parties are a bad date idea unless you know that you are an actual couple, and the man actually wants you on his arm most of the time, at the party.

        Sorry I got off on this tangent but call me old fashioned. I do not expect a man to handcuff himself to me at a party, but then, why do we think that it has to be OK when you take a date to a party, or a girlfriend, but then spend a significant portion of the time off talking to other people, sometimes talking to somebody of the opposite sex. I know if I go to a party with a boyfriend, or a date I am very interested in, I feel it is only respectful to make the person I go with feel special, and make it very plain to the other men that I do have an escort for the evening. I am starting to feel like the older generations had it right. Not our parents but our grandparents, or great grandparents, when they felt it was inappropriate for somebody who is taken to be off talking to members of the opposite sex. It’s not about being independent or not, it’s about being respectful to your significant other. Seriously, what can’t an upstanding man say to another woman at a party that he can’t say in front of his girlfriend, date or wife? My feelings are that if he is above board, there is nothing he can’t say to her with his significant other there.

        Maybe along with bringing back courting, we can bring back the notion that you can’t really be independent and be in a relationship. That whole notion to me is absurd. There is a difference between having some freedom to do your own thing once in a while, like a man who enjoys baseball going to the game with some friends, but really, the whole point of getting into a relationship is just the opposite of being independent. To me wanting to truly be independent in a relationship is more like saying you want to be selfish. Wanting your cake and eating it too.

        Ok, I need to stop. Clearly this whole thing has triggered my emotions. I love the idea of this topic because I sooo want men to return to being men. I want men to know what they want, go after what they want, say what they mean and mean what they say. I want men like my grandfather who was very much a leader of our family, but he was never mean or bossy. He was just firm and resolute. You could talk to him and he listened and he would say the most amazing things that made you understand things. My grandmother loved him more than you can even imagine, and she was more often than not, a very very happy woman. I think men have been lied to. They think women don’t want leaders. I know I am not alone in saying that women are desperate to find a man who is. I think men have forgotten, or never learned how to be the kind of leader a woman wants. You don’t have to be the CEO to be that kind of leader.

        I think women need to learn that we can still have our careers, the vote and all of the other things that make us equals to men, and yet still benefit from a more traditional feeling relationship with a man who is more traditional in that sense. I don’t see traditional as being a man who wants his wife barefoot and in the kitchen.

        OK, need to stop!

        1. Julia

          JennLee tl,dr

          From the gist of what you are saying, how do you figure out if a man is really interested in you or just interested in some short term fun. Well we can never look into a glass ball and see the future but there are several things a man does that indicates his interest like:

           he contacts you frequently and gets to know you
          he asks you out on frequent dates
          he asks you to be his girlfriend
          he tells you he loves you
          he introduces you to his family and friends
          he travels with you
          he asks you to move in
          he asks you to marry him

          The concept that a woman must hold out till marriage to get all of these is absolute hogwash. If you have a religious reason to wait, by all means do so but know your pool is limited to other religious men who also want to wait. Most people consider sex an important part of an adult relationship. I have quite a few men in my life do most of these, only one I’ve moved in with and we have a timeline for marriage and children. I didn’t need to hold out to get these, it happened organically and we are quite happy. Other things my boyfriend did to let me know his interest were: he always picked me up from the train station when I got home from work, when I was sick in the middle of the night, he went and got me medicine. All of these things happened within a matter of weeks. The biggest thing that will hold you back from a real connection with another person though, is fear. If you allow fear to drive you, it will be harder to have the vulnerability one needs in order to have a deep connection. Be confident, observant and you will find your way.

        2. Jenn

          Julia,
          I agree with your points; I think you’re on the money for the most part. One thing I disagree with is your opinion that it is only religious people who will choose to wait. I am on a message board for waiters (that has atheists along with all other faiths) and have done much research on the Internet concerning couples who waited, and I can assure you that many non-religious, non-waiting spouses (men AND women) do choose to wait with their husbands or wives in spite of the fact that they themselves do not possess the same values. They love them enough to respect their wishes and to help them uphold the values their significant other holds dear. They are able to put their own desires aside in order to honor their partner, because they know that person is The One. Degree of religiosity doesn’t always matter – it’s the commitment one has toward their partner and whether or not they’re of a mind to marry that person. If all someone wants is a casual fling, they won’t bother to wait for someone who won’t put out, regardless of whether that person wants to wait all the way to marriage or just for a few months.

        3. Karmic Equation

          Jenn,
           
          That’s quite interesting. I wonder if those people have low physical attraction for their potential spouses. Or if those people have low sex drives. Or a combination of both. I have no doubt there is a lot of emotional love.
           
          However, I just cannot, for the life of me, imagine waiting 3 years to have sex with a man I love. Unless that love was entirely mental and the physical was unimportant to the both of us.
           
          Obviously those people exist. I’m glad they have a way to meet each other.

        4. JennLee

          @Karmic Equation

          Not at all Karmic. I read an article about a professional athlete who married for a 3rd time and this marriage lasted where others had failed. He said that the difference started immediately. Why? Because the woman made him wait. He said that she was the first to do so. He talked about how many women he had dated went to bed with him on the first night. He said that his experience with his present wife was an eye opening experience because they actually got to know each other, and became friends before they ever slept together. He said that the first time they had sex was the first time he ever truly made love to someone. He said that it was the first time that sex was about more than just physical gratification. Ho long did they wait? If I remember right, it was about 3 months, but it was 3 months of exclusive dating. I wonder if this woman was a client of Evan’s because according to the man, she basically told him that she would not sleep with him until they were in a committed relationship, and that would not happen until she knew him a little better. But she also let him know that she did want to get to know him better.

          He said that making love to her for the first time was spiritual to him. Why wouldn’t it be? She made him place more value on her than he has ever been made to do with other women. He was probably tired of women who fell on their back with their legs in the air.

        5. Jenn

          Karmic,
          LOL I can’t speak for every waiter on the planet, but I can assure you that for myself, and for the people in the online communities I’m part of, sexual attraction is very highly important. I could never date someone I wasn’t that attracted to, it just wouldn’t work. Interestingly enough, it is the opposite of what you say; if the physical wasn’t that important to me, I wouldn’t be waiting. Because I think of sex as something I only want to share with the person I marry, it is actually very important – that’s why I would never marry someone I wasn’t completely crazy about. As far as you saying you couldn’t wait, hmm, I just think maybe you haven’t met the right guy (if he were waiting, that is). If it was someone you knew you wanted to spend the rest of your life with, those few years beforehand would mostly seem like no time at all. Not that it wouldn’t be difficult a lot of the time, but in contrast to spending the rest of your life together? Yeah, that’s not a terribly long time.

    2. 11.2
      Fusee

      Jennlee, quick answer: TIME.
      Longer answer: you meet guy, you two have a good chat, guy asks number, you feel ok with the idea of going to a PROPER date so you give number, guy calls within two days, you schedule say PROPER date within the next few days, you go on the date, you have a good time, guy calls again within two days, and you repeat for a few more dates. If he does not call within a reasonnable time frame, stops calling, or you stop having a good time or realize that you two are not compatible, you kindly decline at the next invitation. If you two start having a emotional connection and open up to revealing more intimate information, you’ll know that you have something more promising developing. If the guy pushes for sex early on, and/or constantly redirect the conversation towards superficial stuff what you got is a player, someone who wants to date casually, or someone uninterested/unable to connect more intimately with someone. That’s when you do your graceful exit. Back to the short answer: TIME, CONSISTANCY, DEPTH.

      1. 11.2.1
        Jenn

        I agree with Fusee, and I’ll add that you can only control what you do, and how you react. You can’t control what men do, or how they think or what their feelings are toward you. If you establish and work within your own boundaries, whatever those may be, then the players and PUAs will soon weed themselves out. If all they want is sex, they’ll hightail it pretty quickly once they realize they’re not going to get it so easily. And don’t worry about whether or not a guy is using PUA techniques on you, or whether he’s a player. It doesn’t matter because it’s mainly about how you conduct yourself with him. If he really likes you, and you establish yourself as a woman with certain requirements, he will step up. If he doesn’t, you’ve lost nothing and you’ll have even saved yourself a lot of wasted time and heartache.

    3. 11.3
      tamara

      @JennLee: Btw, I’ve read Evan say that he doesn’t generally answer questions in the comment section. =) Those times that he does are exceptions.
       
      I agree with quite a lot of what u say. But I think u’re overthinking the PUA stuff a little bit. I don’t think I’ve ever dated a guy who learnt these methods, but even a guy I dated had studied that stuff, it wouldn’t really matter. If a guy treats u v well and loves u, what does the other stuff matter? Just look at his actions. I feel that a guy who really likes u doesn’t just have charm on dates, there r some Significant Sacrifices he makes–in time, money and effort. They will always be trying to give.
       
      Like u, I like the old-fashioned guys who use traditional courtship methods. There are plenty of such men out there. U’ll end up with one, if u want that 🙂
       
      “the issue is that the clock is ticking, and ever second you waste with somebody who isn’t going to marry you is a second that can be spent finding the one who will.” Relax, Jenn…Be a good person, educate urself on rship skills so that when u do end up with a great guy u can maintain that rship, and u’ll be fine. If u haven’t bought Why He Disappeared yet, I’d recommend it. I don’t wanna sound boastful, but dating goes well for me ( it’s the rest of my life that’s so messy sometimes). But although I thought i didn’t need help, I’ve started reading WHD, and I’ve already learnt some v valuable things I hadn’t known before. 🙂
       
      “The whole point of getting into a relationship is just the opposite of being independent. To me wanting to truly be independent in a relationship is more like saying you want to be selfish. Wanting your cake and eating it too.”
      That’s your view; perhaps u’re more extroverted, based on your MBTI? If u date an introvert, I think u should refrain from thinking him selfish for needing some space and freedom. I’m introverted and that’s how I am–but I’m not selfish. I want a partner who can love me but not stifle me, and I want to do the same for my partner. This is why personality compatibility is so important–clearly our ideal partners are quite different. 🙂 Even though we both like traditional men.

      1. 11.3.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        “I’ve read Evan say that he doesn’t generally answer questions in the comment section. =) Those times that he does are exceptions.”

        Not only do I not answer questions in the comment section, no questions should even BE in the comment section, lest an individual hijack the conversation to ask about her own relationship. If one has gotten through, I need to screen more closely.

    4. 11.4
      Noquay

      JennLee
      Obviously I am not Evan either, but I am gonna answer your question too. Some PUAs are very, very good at hiding who they are. At first you’re not going to know his true motives. Some of these dudes are far more articulate, socially adept, look better than
      most
      men so yep, we are going to fall for them.
      People unfold over time and meeting new folk always will have some element of risk and time wastage. People’s ability and willingness to step up is totally
      independent of whatever impression they initially make, good or bad. Two really big warning signs are hot/cold behavior and/or any degree of ambivalence.

  12. 12
    Stephanie

    This is a great post, Evan, as always.  I would just like share my recent experiences with your audience, if I may.  I am a 44 year old women who has had only two relationships since re-entering the dating game within the last year.  I met both men on a very popular dating site.  I initiated contact both times.  I said no to about 80 men altogether.  Not that all of these guys were unsuitable.  Just not interested.
    I chose well.  Both men were exactly how they had portrayed themselves online. Smart, funny, thoughtful, passionate, sweet and a little on the geeky side.  Just right for me.  
    Guy number one and I dated for months.  We went from messaging on the site, to texting, to talking on the phone, to meeting for coffee about two weeks in.  He wasn’t necessarily my “type” physically.  First bald man I ever dated.  (I turned out to like it quite a bit.)  He was shorter than most men in my past.  He was, however, confident, direct, honest and kind.  We had a lot in common.  He texted me every day.  Called me every day.  Gave me his work number but I never used it.  He was the one who dialed my number every day.  He planned every date and gave a lot of attention to them.  He tailored them to things we liked with a definite focus on what would put a smile on my face.  He paid for every one of them.  I think he would have been offended if I tried to pay.  I  turn, I brought baked goods on movie nights and did small things to show him I wasn’t here to take anything. .Every time he saw me he smiled.  Every time our dates ended he didn’t want to let go.  He spoke of the future.  I let him and tried to assume nothing.  We chose to be exclusive and I never questioned it.  He was focused and made me feel special.  He told me to assume that if he had free time outside of work and his sons, it would be spent with me.  I was incredibly happy.   That is putting it mildly.  It was a relationship filled with great communication, similar interests, constant hearty laughter and powerful passion.  
    So, how is it that there is Guy #2?  Well… the one snag was Guy #1 wasn’t sure how to handle me meeting his young sons.  We spoke of them every single day.  He is a great father.  I understood that he needed to handle this his way with the kids first and foremost.  One night, though, a friend told me that he would have introduced me to family much sooner.  Planted seeds that I was being used or taken for a ride.  I don’t know why I let it affect me when I really had no real reason to panic.  I shot off a text in an emotional moment.  Read it back in horror.  It came off insecure and almost accusatory and with an ultimatum.  I was filled with instant regret.  I tried to take it back.  He said nothing.  For two agonizing days  Then he told me he needed more time to digest what I had said.  He called after that and I heard his voice shake as he told me that he couldn’t believe that I said the things I did. Did I realize that I had accused him of not caring for me, of coldness and arrogance and of being a user? It was like all of his efforts had been for naught.  Our relationship ended that night.  In retrospect, I see that we were well on our way to a very good relationship.  He was honest and moving at the right speed.  He was courting me and doing a fine job of it.  He was being mindful of his job as a father.
    It was very hard coming to terms with my part in this.  It is what led me to your posts, Evan.
    Ok…So…Guy #2 is my current guy.  And really, my number 1 guy.  He has a huge heart and is a wonderful man.  He even told me outloud last week that he believes men should court women.  He wanted to court me.  That’s exactly what he has been doing.  We speak every day, as well as texting. He prefers dates to phone calls to messages but he makes all three forms of communication lovely.
    We are moving very slowly but he is doing all the courtship things right,  He makes me feel desirable and wanted and cared for.  He wears his heart on his sleeve a lot more than the guys I m used to, who have been, I’ve realized, mostly aloof and emotionally unavailable.  My guy makes me feel like he would be nowhere else by choice and that he is lucky to have me.  I like and care about him more every day.  He is proof that a man can show his heart and take things slowly and still give a woman the incredible gift of desirability.  In return I am trying to to reciprocate and let him know I thankful for him.  
    Chivalry is not dead.  There are womderful men out there.  Men you can trust.  Men who really want to know a woman and be known by a woman.  Men who want you to be yourself.  Men that don’t play games.  Men that want to have something  real.  They will call.  They will call you every day and ask you about your day.  They will give thought to what makes you tick and try to provide it.  They will hold your hand and compliment you.  They will kiss you until your knees feel useless and they won’t do it to get you in bed a few moments later.  They will do it because they are into you.  You will be able to take a peek at that man when he is kissing you passionately and you will see him completely enthralled.  They will chase you and be happy when you let them catch you.
    I am sorry for the HUGE message but I want to give both men I met props for being real men, really great guys, for taking a chance and not falling for the casual sex, hookup game which is tempting.  
    I am goimg to continue appreciating my guy and reading Evan’s advice.  I am going to keep a cool head and a warm heart.  And I wish those of you looking for a real man all the happiness I have experienced even in the face of my social rustiness and rash behavior.  
    Let a man court you.  A good man will want to do just that.   Now I need to message my guy back because I think he might be wanting to see me tonight.  🙂

    1. 12.1
      Helen

      Kat (7) and Stephanie (12). Thank you for sharing.  It gives us high value women hope and faith to continue and wait patiently for the same a man who steps up. Thank you. 

      1. 12.1.1
        Spoofer

        Stephanie, the man you just described (#1) is the exact man that I just recently started dating.  I know for a fact he is not the actual guy, b/c mine is recently divorced and just started dating.  But your description fits him to a T.  He is bald, shorter than what I am used to, listens to me, calls me, texts me, pays attention to the things that I am interested in, plans our dates around what my interests are, etc.  The only difference is we are not to the point of introducing our kids to each other yet.  Only 3 dates, a few weeks into meeting.  He never ends one date without asking for another.  Sends a quick text the morning of the date to confirm.  Other days, he either calls or texts or both.  When we first swapped phone numbers, I told him that I don’t really call guys unless I develop a good friendship or I enter into an exclusive relationship.  He totally understood that and has no problem stepping up and taking the lead.  He plans the dates so I don’t have to.  He will give me the option to being picked up at my house or meeting him somewhere.   Not once has the subject of sex come up yet.  He is just taking his time getting to know me. It’s almost too good to be true, and I know I deserve someone exactly like this.  I have old fashioned views and good morals.  I am just not used to this kind of treatment.  I’ve never been with anyone who has done what he is doing for me.  I am loving every bit of it and I can recognize a gem when I see it.   This is the guy I will hold out for.  The one I will appreciate.  The one who deserves another date.  The one that I think will earn my respect.  The one I will never regret dating, and will never forget.

    2. 12.2
      Anguished

      stephanie,
      sorry but I couldn’t finish reading your post but I was touched to send this your way and I hope it finds you. Regarding the first bf who was so great please let it go. It’s a fantasy, he wasn’t that great. How do I know that? to Love is a decision; granted we can’t love everyone because we are all different and have different primary needs. that’s why we have deal breakers; yours and mine might not be the same. Once you find that person who fulfils that primary love need, love then becomes a decision. If your relationship broke up because of a bad text you sent once, not that it’s a habit of yours. Sweetheart you dodged a huge one. Love includes forgiveness . The first time you messed up, he bolted and you think this could have been a long lasting relationship. Thank God he left you, saved you so much headache. I could go on and on but I hope you catch my drift.

  13. 13
    starthrower68

    May be easier said than done when attraction is high but if a woman stands firm on her values, she will act accordingly.  It depends on what her values are.  Some see value in waiting, others do not. We just have to be willing to accept a man’s response, good or bad, to standing for what we value.

  14. 14
    Dina Strange

    I honestly think all those women who are having NSA sex are screwing it up for girls like me who don’t want to have NSA sex. Most of guys are so used to easy sex they bluntly tell you if you won’t put up, somebody else will. Well, i usually tell those guys “bye, bye” but that’s not the point.

    Those same women who had NSA sex later come back and complain that men don’t treat them properly and expect NSA sex. Hello…that’s what you taught those men in the first place. Sometimes i think women want their cake and eat it too…and unfortunately it doesn’t always work that way. 

    1. 14.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Nope, Dina. If a guy likes you, he’ll commit to you. Case closed. The fact that men are screwing women outside commitment has nothing to do with you. You want the man who wants you; not the one who prefers a booty call to your company.

      1. 14.1.1
        Jenn

        I agree with Evan and I’ll add that it doesn’t matter what other women do, because you’re not in a competition with them. They can be all about the NSA sex, but if what you want is a relationship, you’re going to do things differently. That’s a good thing!

  15. 15
    Isobel

    My STBX husband did all that, he was wonderful when we were courting; kind, considerate, loving, generous, caring, clever, funny, bought flowers/meals/hotel rooms etc, etc, etc. and so much more. Then, after we married he turned into a rude, boorish, farting, stingy, angry, drunk, controlling, smelly, sex pest who couldn’t cope with my independence or intellect or freedom or autonomy. Sorry, I won’t trust a man who puts it all out there to woo me ever again. I want warts and all from the get-go, and to decide for myself if it’s acceptable. No more lies.
    BTW Stephanie, if man#1 dumps you for something as simple as a misunderstanding over a crucial issue, you are well rid. Another example of someone saying one thing, doing another. Forget him.

    1. 15.1
      PYTsuccessful

      @Isobel – in curious, how long were you too dating before marriage? Also, in hindsight, do you think there were signs before the bad behavior hit?

  16. 16
    missy

    I was single for over a year I refused to be  a side chick, jump-off, or a run in. when you have standards, and stick to them real MEN will respect this, now I met a man that truly courts me and have meaningful conversations and he’s just as independent as I am. I  refuse to deal or date nothing less than that. Thanks this is your best post…Ladies it boils downs to standards, worth, and self respect…PERIOD!!!

  17. 17
    Karl R

    Men need to learn courting skills for their own benefit. Being confident, being decisive, coming up with a plan, following through … these improve a man’s odds of success. They certainly make him stand out.

    JB said: (#9)
    “Let’s take a look at the last 3 women (all in their 40′s) I asked out on a dinner date and they ACCEPTED [… full story cut out to save space …] That’s “courting” for you in the 45-60 crowd……. just sayin…….” 

    Dating is never a 100% thing. It’s frequently not even a 10% thing. It doesn’t have to be. You only need to succeed once. Don’t let a string of unsuccessful dates get you down.

    But your post introduces one of the challenges with dating. Even when you do everything right, you will still rarely succeed. You’re improving your odds, but it may take a while before you see the results, just because the odds are still so low.

    Therefore, you have to be able to recognize the good advice and follow it, even when you’re not getting immediate feedback that it’s working.

    Dina Strange said: (#14)
    “I honestly think all those women who are having NSA sex are screwing it up for girls like me who don’t want to have NSA sex. Most of guys are so used to easy sex they bluntly tell you if you won’t put up, somebody else will.”

    That’s true … up to a point. If a guy wants NSA sex from you (and nothing more), he’s not likely to court you just to get it. He’s definitely not going to commit to you in order to get it. He can get sex without the effort.

    But the reason it’s true is because he does not want a relationship with you. His lack of effort is the result of that. There’s no point in putting in any effort to get into a relationship that he doesn’t want to be in.

    After a man has made that decision,  a man might try to find out whether he can get NSA sex. If you aren’t interested in NSA sex, then he’ll move on.

    Androgynous asked: (#3)
    “If men are given the option of not needing to put in any effort for sex and female companionship, why should they put in any effort ?”

    When I was dating, I would put in the effort if I wanted more than sex and a little female companionship. If I didn’t want a long-term relationship with that woman (or at all), I wouldn’t put in the effort.

    I don’t see any contradiction in treating one woman differently than another based upon what type of relationship I was seeking with her.

    Androgynous asked: (#3)
    “And why should they take those women seriously, who now claim they want traditional courtship when they (the women) were perfectly happy with the free love lifestyle previously ?

    I’m sure my wife has had a wide range of relationships, ranging from short, casual flings to a previous marriage. I’m absolutely positive that she would not have married me if I had treated our relationship like a short, casual fling.

    Give men some credit for intelligence. We’re perfectly capable of changing our opinion and our actions as circumstances change.

    My wife and I started out as a short, casual fling. That didn’t prevent either of us from shifting out of that mindset as we realized that we were quite compatible.

    JennLee said: (#11)
    It would be good to be able to spot the players as quickly as possible, and looking onto the PUA community, I realized that we women may think we are good at spotting them, but i think the truth is, we are absolutely horrible at spotting the well schooled, or naturally charming ones.

    The skills that the PUA community is developing are the same set that work for other men who are dating. Be confident. Stand out from the crowd. Be charming without seeming too interested. Appear to be the man that lots of women are interested in.

    Learning the skills doesn’t turn a man into a better partner, but it does make him more successful at dating. That’s why I recommend that guys develop these skills.

    Similarly, it’s why I recommend that women not place too much importance on those skills. They’re just skills that help a man get his foot in the door when dating. They don’t turn him into a better person.

    JennLee asked: (#11)
    “I think it is relevant to ask how you can tell fairly quickly that the guy is just being a well schooled player, and when he is genuinely courting you with long term interest?”

    It’s easy. Don’t try to find out quickly.

    If you wait long enough, then you will know for sure. People eventually show you who they really are.

    1. 17.1
      JB

      Oh Karl I know “Dating is never a 100% thing” I’ve been on this blog since the beginning. I win some and lose some. I was just giving a “snapshot” of my last few weeks of online dating and showing the point that some men actually try to “court” but to no avail. Many of the women online get 100’s of responses from men who would love to court them but they email back the “tall/good looking/successful/high status guy” who has many options and doesn’t have to court anybody to get his needs fulfilled. Then they say “no one wants to court me” when they really mean no one with many options wants to court them.

  18. 18
    Erin

    I saw that Matt Walsh post somewhere and I loved it, which surprised me – I’m usually not one to love Matt Walsh’s musings. Which brings me up to now….I’ve done everything – mirroring, leaning back, letting him pick me, staying busy and dating a few at a time. I had my profile rewritten by the eCyrano service. I am a confident articulate and educated 36 year old woman who can only seem to land men who are interested in casual sex or a completely chaste relationship that bores me to bits. I have graciously thanked men for our time together and moved on if thfor pressure me for sex before I’m in a committed relationship wIth them, which only makes them mad. Fine. I’m feeling like at least I would be getting laid once in a while if I wasn’t holding out for Mr. Right, who I’m feeling like is just not going to show up. It’s just such a catch 22, and these techniques do not seem to be working for me. 
     

    1. 18.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      @Erin “I have graciously thanked men for our time together and moved on if they pressure me for sex before I’m in a committed relationship wIth them, which only makes them mad.”

      Since I’m not in the bedroom with you, Erin, I can’t say what’s actually going on. But you don’t have to move on because the guy wants to have sex. It’s ASSUMED that a guy wants to have sex. You don’t have to break up with him for this reason. You have to suggest what I suggested in Why He Disappeared, “I’m attracted to you, I’d love to have sex, but I don’t sleep with men who are actively looking for other women on Match.com. You can understand that, right, Derek? I only sleep with guys that are my boyfriends. And since I don’t know and you don’t know if that’s what the future holds, let’s continue to have some fun, fool around, and if we both realize we want to be together in a few weeks, you’re in for the night of your life…”

      If you’re not saying some version of that, it may explain why everything is falling apart. If you are doing exactly that, and the men aren’t sticking around, it just means those men aren’t that into you. And if you decide you want to get laid once in awhile, you can go back to sleeping with men who have made no effort to commit to you – just don’t complain when those men disappear, only text, or are actively looking for other women online.

  19. 19
    Karmic Equation

     
    JennLee 11.1.1 wrote:
     
    “I like the idea of men not assuming it is cool to spend nearly the entire evening at a party talking to other women when he took me to the party as his date…If I invite a guy to a party, I would expect to act like his date and not spend the whole evening talking to other guys I know, or getting to know the ones I don’t know. Maybe parties are a bad date idea unless you know that you are an actual couple, and the man actually wants you on his arm most of the time, at the party.”

    “I know if I go to a party with a boyfriend, or a date I am very interested in, I feel it is only respectful to make the person I go with feel special, and make it very plain to the other men that I do have an escort for the evening.”

     
    My first date with my ex-husband lasted about 12 hours. We met at his friend’s cookout and he spent the majority of his time chatting with his friends. I spent the majority of my time making new ones and getting reacquainted with some of the friends we had in common, of which the host was one. We probably spent less than 2-hours total with each other in that 12-hour period. But I had a blast. I got to watch him interact laugh, enjoy himself. I got to see how his friends treated him. I got a LOT of information, and part of the reason why I married him. He was (and still is) a very good man. 
     
    Another boyfriend invited me to a cookout after we had been dating about 4 months. He spent the majority of his time chatting with his friends and would every now and then come back to make sure I was fed. He was somewhat nurturing like that. That night I didn’t feel like making new friends so I parked myself in a lounge chair in the backyard and played games on my phone. Every now and then looking up to see where he was. I was kind of alone in my own world with all these other people around me. That was fine too. I found some me time when surrounded by boatloads of people.
     
    I guess the point of the two stories above is that if you’re secure in your relationship, or at the very least secure of your own worth, you don’t need to have your man at your beck and call and around to show that he has “claimed” you. Moreover, watching a new man in your life interact with other people gives you a lot of data. And, if the man IS already your significant other, odds are he spends the MARJORITY of his spare time with you, so when you’re at parties, THAT’s when he reconnects with his old buddies. You should be happy he’s having a good time. Not worried about how it looks that you’re not on his arm. If you’re shy and don’t like socializing and NEED a man by your side, well, you can either decline going to the cookout but send him off with your blessing or try to come out of your shell. He shouldn’t need to cater to your shyness.
     
    Now neither of those guys above spent the majority of the night talking to women. Both chatted primarily with men. Had they been chatting primarily with women, odds are that my ex-husband would never have gotten to the husband part and my 4 month bf wouldn’t have remained my bf for another 10 months or so. 
     
    If you feel a man is disrespecting you, you are disrespecting yourself by starting or remaining in a relationship with that man. All on you. Not on the guy.
     
    Dump incompatible guys faster. I usually figure it out by date 3. If the guy makes it past date 3, our relationship has a good chance of lasting. 
     
    Since you’re not having sex with your guy, you can’t blame oxytocin for making you stay with an incompatible or disrespectful man. You’re staying with that guy for some psychological need that you need to either come to terms with or learn to overcome. Again, all on you. Not the guy.
     
    As for courting, I like it when I get it, but I’d rather “hang out” — not alone, but with groups. My reformed ex-player bf (the one that lasted about a year) — I got to know him by hanging out at the VFW post that he bartended at and hung out at during his off time. All his friends were there, so he spent his spare time there. And I spent my time there because, at first the pool table and the cheap drinks drew me 🙂 But later it was HIM, the pool table, and the new friends that I made there. Two of my first three dates with my ex-husband could be considered “hang out” dates. First date was the cookout; third date was a dinner party where he invited his best friends. Like 20 of them…all because I told him I wanted to meet his friends. I was thinking double date or something. The organized dinner blew me away. Can you blame me for marrying him? lol
     
    Anyway, perhaps women who don’t know HOW to hang out with men have would prefer the 1:1 courting at the beginning of the relationship, during the dating and get the “hang out” afterwards. I usually get the “hanging out” dates first and then get the courting AFTER we’re a couple. Is it me or is it the men I choose?

     

  20. 20
    Nathan

    The reality is that the make up of “relationship-oriented men” is as diverse as the women they seek or have. Some will court you furiously. Some will meet you half way, seeking balance and equality. And some will be more shy or passive, and might not “man up” in the stereotypical ways.
     
    While much of this discussion is focused on courtship methods, I’d argue that the methods themselves aren’t nearly as important as the values underneath. Relationship-oriented men will demonstrate respect for women from the get go. They will not attempt to override emotional or sexual boundaries, they will show interest in a woman as a whole person, and will through their actions seek to get to know her more, whether or not they “get” sex in the process.
     
    In other words, since women keep bringing up having “standards” and sticking to them, relationship-oriented men have standards and stick with them as well. But how this looks – in terms of their approaches to dating – isn’t the same. When I was in the dating market, I never assumed women wanted me to be decisive and to take the lead. And frankly, I didn’t want to do that all the time anyway. A mixed approach of leading enough to get things going, but collaborating on planning dates and the rest, worked just fine for me. I rarely had long “dry spells,” and now am happily in the third year of a wonderful relationship.
     
    Being confident and secure in yourself tends to be universally sexy, whereas taking charge of the whole dating process is only sexy to women who want that. Determining which men are serious about commitment, and which are not is more about paying attention to signs of their underlying values – how they respond to your boundaries and needs, how much depth of interest they show in you as a PERSON, and how they handle conflicts with you. Although all of this tends to take some time, it’s also the case that players and non-serious types usually will seriously fail in one or more of these three areas fairly quickly. Skillful attention to details, as opposed to seeking a checklist of completed actions (he called me, bought dinner, called me again, etc), makes all the difference in my opinion.
     
     

    1. 20.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Nathan, good to see you. Your contributions are always valuable. I see and acknowledge your point. Yes, there are lots of types of high character men out there. They are not all decisive leaders. Your blind spot – or, rather, our one main difference over the years – is that all methods of dating are equally effective. They’re not. They’re equally valid, but not equally effective. So a woman who aggressively asks out men, follows up with him after the first date, and initiates sex may not fare as well a woman who lets the man initiate. And a man who doesn’t take charge of the dating process – the guy who is waiting by the phone for her to call because he’s too nice, insecure, or beta – well, he might not do as well with most women, who want more clarity and enthusiasm from their men. Neither of these folks are “wrong” or “bad” for being on the broad spectrum of human beings with different personalities and methods. But just as you think it’s dangerous for me to generalize “what men want” and “what women want” (when in fact, not all men and women are the same), I think it’s dangerous to suggest that a passive man who doesn’t initiate will fare as well (in general) as a confident man who follows through with clarity and purpose. Purposeful men are not remotely better partners, but they tend to be more attractive to women overall. Does that make sense? I don’t want to disparage those nice guys; only point out what they already know – women tend to like guys who can make decisions and assume that their advances will be well-received, as opposed to men who are sitting back waiting for her to initiate.

      1. 20.1.1
        Nathan

        “So a woman who aggressively asks out men, follows up with him after the first date, and initiates sex may not fare as well a woman who lets the man initiate. And a man who doesn’t take charge of the dating process – the guy who is waiting by the phone for her to call because he’s too nice, insecure, or beta – well, he might not do as well with most women, who want more clarity and enthusiasm from their men.” Evan, these are the extremes. I spoke of a spectrum, which in my view is more representative not only of men, but also women. I’ll readily agree with you that the guy who never initiates and doesn’t lead some of the time isn’t going to fair well. And I’d also agree that the woman who takes charge of the whole process is probably going to experience challenge and resistance. In fact, I’d even agree with you that it’s a good rule for men to just step up and get the first date arranged, because that’s probably the most effective thing to do.

        From what I see, though, when it comes to preferred dating styles over a longer period – there is no “most women.” I’ve read and participated in a diverse range of dating and relationship forums over the years, as well as went on over 100 dates during the time I was doing online dating. For every women saying she wants a man to set up all the dates, lead, and court her, there’s another who says she wants to be treated as an independent, free thinking partner with equal say in the process from the beginning.

        And actually, if you think about it, these are the women who either have figured out what it is that they really want, or think they have. Many women don’t really have a clear sense that they actually want a man to court them, or to have a man treat them as an equal, or something else. And I’d bet that this is the group that most suffers from “getting burned” by the casual crowd, because they don’t have a clear enough sense of self to either detect and reject causal offers, or separate causal from relationship-oriented. The same is basically true of men as far as I’m concerned, with many guys muddling through as best they can, but not really knowing who they are and what they actually want. The confident one’s might have more success in the short term than passive guys, but because they don’t have much clarity on values and long term desires, that success is fleeting.
         
        Basically, we’re both speaking mostly to the folks who aren’t quite sure what they want or how they want it to happen. You’re offering that men should court women as a successful strategy to take up, and I’m suggesting that this will work great – for those who want that. If you stick this blog post on half a dozen other dating blogs with markedly different audiences, I’m betting you’d get a real mixed bag when it comes to responses. Even here, amongst readers who generally agree with your point of view, you have a diversity of opinions. I know women who would pull their hair out reading comments like JennLee’s, while I know others who would generally agree with her.
         
        Overall, I think once you have the first date out of the way, it’s a pretty wide open field. Men are wise to learn to step up to get the ball rolling, but after that, I’d argue that it’s your ability to pay close attention, be confident, but also flexible, and know who you are that will most determine long term success. This might mean leading all or most of the dating process, and it might mean something more mixed or shared.
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         

        1. Speed

          No, Nathan, that just hasn’t been my experience or that of anyone I know. You are just projecting your ideology and agenda (an androgynous world where all gender roles are blurred or nonexistent) into your dating advice. If this androgynous world ever comes, your kind of advice might be useful, but it is not useful in our present world.
          Or just look at all the female commenters on this blog. Most of them seem to be the “strong, successful, confident type,” yet none of them write, “I wish men would let me take charge of the dating and relationship process.”  If anything, they consistently complain that we men are taking half-steps in everything we do, and seem disengaged or disinterested.
          It’s terribly fatal advice to tell a guy that he should be open to a “range of courting styles,” from hyper-aggressive Alpha to extremely passive beta. That is not effective advice. Exceptions aside (yes, there always exceptions), a guy has to sort of take charge and lead in the courting phase.
          And even beyond that, women seem to really like a confident, successful guy, even in the relationship or marriage phase. Women who prefer their men to be passive and beta are probably a niche market.
           
          The “anything goes, all dating methods are equally effective” is not true in my experience, observation reading. This is why I strongly agree with Evan on this point. 

        2. Nathan

          “It’s terribly fatal advice to tell a guy that he should be open to a “range of courting styles,” from hyper-aggressive Alpha to extremely passive beta. That is not effective advice. Exceptions aside (yes, there always exceptions), a guy has to sort of take charge and lead in the courting phase.” Speed, instead of reading what I wrote closely, as well as how I responded to Evan’s comment, you chose to see me advocating for an anything goes approach. Something I never did, nor would advocate for.
           
          What I am arguing is that there isn’t any single, most effective way to handle the early part of the dating process. The self-selected,  female commenters here aren’t even in agreement, and if you go read other dating blogs talking about these issues, you’d see far more of a range of views than you see here. I think there is a general consensus in rejecting the passive, beta dudes that never step up or initiate anything. However, between those guys and the power alpha dude that takes control of everything is a diverse range of men who are either muddling along the best they can, or are mixing responses based upon how a woman reacts or what seems to be working.

          When I was actively dating online, I met a wide gamut of women. Some wanted a more old fashioned approach, including having a man hold doors open for them, pay for dates long after the first one, and generally have the man lead. Others were almost the exact opposite, seeing things like that as oppressive and limiting. Still others wanted something in between – some blend of “traditional courtship” and modern sensibilities. And some just wanted everything to be casual with little or no expectations, or concerns about dating approach beyond “be kind and respectful to me.” Now, I did a few stints of more casual dating after long term relationships ended, but for the most part, would move on when I found women who didn’t really have any clear long term goals around dating (and contrary to the views often expressed here, there are plenty of women who date casually – maybe not as many as men, but far more than a few outliers). And when it came to the other women I dated, after muddling through in the early years of my online dating experience, trying to either be the deliberate, courting type guy, or trying to be the feminist guy who respected women’s independence (which usually meant me being more passive than I wanted to be), I learned to pay closer attention.

          In other words, I made decisions about how to approach dates (especially after the 1st one) based upon what seemed most effective for the particular women. If I liked her, and she seemed to like more courting type behavior, I might offer a bit more of that. If she seemed to desire equality and a share in the decision making, I’d offer some of that. It was easy enough for me to do this because I have always been a blend of “traditional” and new, so I was basically showing more of one side or another earlier on.

          The period in which I dated in this way, offering something of what a particular seemed to want in a man, while also not selling the rest of myself short was the most successful dating period of my life. I got to date and enjoy time with a wide variety of women, and I ended up with two long term relationships (including my current one) in the process.  The reality is that no one dates a “pure type” of person – we’re all making micro-shifts of various kinds while on dates and during the early dating process. It’s just that some folks are much more on one end of the spectrum or the other.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *