Does Online Dating Even Work?!

Does Online Dating Even Work?!

Dear Evan,

I was curious as to what your real opinion is of online dating. I did meet my girlfriend online, but after a year of painful struggle, meaning hardly any dates despite being educated, employed, and reasonably attractive. Friends of both genders tell that their experiences have been hard in different ways. My guy friends (also educated, attractive) complain that they get no responses and female acquaintences tell me that they get so many emails, etc, that they don’t know where to start-and often do nothing. They don’t have time to “date around” several times a week.(actually neither would I). I assume that the problem exists due to security. Women, being more vulnerable than men, are more hesitant to date online, so you get a situation where there’s a lot more men than women. Aside from my own luck and the trendy radio ads and sexy commercials, it seems as if no one’s happy.

Geoff

Dear Geoff,

Glad to hear you found someone special, and even happier that you spoke up. Most of the people that write about online dating write about what’s wrong with it. It makes sense. I mean, that’s what news is – emphasize the bad, misery loves company, etc. Turn on the TV and it’s not about kittens being saved from trees, but drive-by shootings. That doesn’t mean there aren’t plenty of kittens saved from trees.

Go to one of those websites that reviews dating sites and you’ll see the same. Average review will be 2 out of 5 stars or something like that. Why? Because people who get married from online dating sites rarely get back online to post happy reviews on websites. They move on with their lives, while everyone else complains about the sites and the awful people on the sites.

I don’t deny ANYBODY the negative experiences that they’ve had. I just urge people to find some healthier perspective on the whole thing. A private client told me just this weekend that she’s quitting online dating after three bad dates in a row. Here is what I wrote back to her:

First of all, I’ve had EVERY bad dating experience you can possibly imagine. I’ve had women write me nasty emails, insult me over the phone, ignore my phone calls, stand me up, refuse to thank me for dinner, refuse to reciprocate in bed… Are you getting the idea? And yet I still run around as this super dating advocate, because I believe it is the best prospect to find someone special. If you choose to wait for lightning to strike until you go on another date with the “right” guy, you might be waiting a long, long time. Like, FOREVER.

Abstinence isn’t the answer. Mustering the courage to persevere in light of bad experience is.

Listen, you might think I’m nuts to keep on preaching positivity. That’s fair. All I know is that it’s freakin’ HARD to meet someone. We have our small lives: our circle of married friends, our work buddies, a few single people, and that’s it. And as you get into your mid-30’s, the bar scene is really old and set-ups have become a bit of a joke. While it’s nice to say, “I want to meet someone organically, where our eyes meet, so I can feel chemistry”, that simply doesn’t happen very often. This is why I believe in online dating. Not because it’s perfect – not by a long shot. But because it creates opportunity where previously there was none. My first love, in 2003, was a Filipino woman that worked in the pharmaceutical industry and lived in a different part of town. I NEVER would have met her in “real life”. But I did meet her on Nerve.com. My best friend in New York is marrying a man she met on eHarmony. My sister is in love with a man she met on Nerve. My sister’s best friend is in love with a man she met on eHarmony. I have dozens of clients who are married, engaged and in love with people they met online. And these are just the people that I know well.

So let’s acknowledge the flaws of online dating: the liars, the bores, the flakes, the crazies, the morons, the perverts, the poor spellers, and so on. These people exist offline as well. They just have access to you online. So as I see it, you have two choices: quit online dating and make a supreme effort to go to as many parties, coffee shops and adult education classes as possible OR try to find a way to avoid the worst of the online daters. The third, and most popular choice, is to quit and wait for your soulmate to drop out of the sky, like “The Secret” for love. Yeah, keep praying, people.

Your best bet is to keep dusting yourself off, learning from your mistakes, and staying in the game. Sure, sometimes you’ll get burned. But sometimes, with enough perseverence (as well as luck, timing, a good profile and a positive attitude), you’ll fall in love. And if it hasn’t happened to you yet, you can say “What’s wrong with these terrible people on these awful sites?” Or you can ask, “How can I make this work for me, despite the obvious flaws?”

You know where I stand. But I’ll tell you, all it takes is one person – and you’ll be standing right with me.

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Comments:

  1. 301
    John

    I’m not saying” online dating does not work”, however I will also say it is very different here in the states and many people are just using dating sites for chatting and attention seeking, sure there are those who are seriously looking and want end their need for online dating, but these type people are really a minority in the grand scheme of things contrary to what most people think…it is the grand illusion. As I had said, to some people it is an addiction for which there is no cure nor any one person who could satisfy their thirst for attention.  It would be easier to dethrone the Queen than to get these people to seriously seek an end to their online dating site addiction.

    1. 301.1
      JB

      “to some people it is an addiction for which there is no cure”

      John is correct on that statement. The key word being “some” not all. For me in my mind it always has been “emotional gambling”. I love the game and it’s really no different than a roulette wheel at a casino. Btw I don’t casino gamble but I did buy 100 shares of Match stock a few weeks ago @ $13.75 today it’s @ $12.00 🙁  No big deal I’m long on it….lol

      That doesn’t mean I’m not seriously looking at the same time though. I’m not nor have I ever been looking for lifetime monogamy. Just more of a serial dater and I’m fine with that.

  2. 302
    John

    My point is this…most people, I won’t say all women as there are men who do this too, who post an ad or profile which ever you prefer are not looking to get off of these sites…yes really, no matter what they say. To this type of person they always think there is someone better out there so they never want to commit or try and make something work and their thought process is …”what can you do to please me”. They are takers and there is no compromise. Dating sites are for all kinds of relationship seekers be it serial daters or for those seeking long term as well as those seeking a marriage partner. The problem is the people who are misrepresenting their real intentions.

  3. 303
    Antony Gomes

    Most decent women find their mates in college or by age of 25.The rest (feminists, mentally ill, obese etc) turn to online dating.All that they want is attention.If prostitution is legalized I will be first one to leave online dating.😉

    1. 303.1
      hunter

      Antony gomes,

      .maybe, women find mates in college or by age 25, the high divorce rate, puts them back into the market..

  4. 304
    John

    +1 @ Antony. This does seem to be the case most of the time and most of these women are just attention ho’s, that and or they just love to see a guy get interested in them and then just play games and waste your time with no real intention of ever meeting.

    1. 304.1
      hunter

      John,

      ..A dating coach may help you with online dating….

       

  5. 305
    Roger

    I’ve read all of this thread with interest as someone who was finding internet dating a mystery, well I did until I read your experiences. Some of the assumptions made have been correct regarding what men and women are looking for, the overly picky individuals etc but I think a lot of the frustrations come from those with low self esteem who think online dating is a easier pill to swallow. I’ll tell you something, it’s not easy, nor is meeting people in the real world! It still needs a mix of qualities which are transferable in both contexts. Judging by the criteria above, as a male I should struggle online? I am a mere 5’6″ but I’ve lost count of the dates I’ve had. I have about 80% success rate in messages returned and the current girl I’m seeing I met online with an HOUR! I’m nothing special, probably a 7. I’ve had two long term relationships via OLD and the last girl was ten years younger. I now have two young children yet I have met an awesome girl who accepts them, but guess what, why shouldn’t she, I make her happy and I’m a fun cheerful guy,   be a better you and you will find someone as you all have a quality someone will love.

  6. 306
    jamila

    I would like to comment on the topic if online dating works. I have been in many online dating sites for years, just met liars, until recently when I met a handsome, love caring and passionate guy at we have been happily together for a while now. Yes online dating can work, you just need to find the right website, and the right person.

  7. 307
    JenniferJeperia

    We make sure our online dating facility is safe and secure for all users. millionaires4dating.com is dating is a fun and safer alternative to meeting strangers in bars, without first knowing them.

  8. 308
    Karen

    Hello

    My name is Karen, and I have had nothing but great results with online dating. I am 55 yrs old. I have been on 3 dates where I have had contact in actually meeting the person, but they weren’t right for me, meaning there wasn’t that “umph”moment where I knew this was going to work out. I have talked to 2 men who we planned to get together to meet, and unfortunately because of other comitments to family or college, it just didn’t happen, and again, didn’t seem to have the “umph” moment. I have talked to a few soldiers, but they didn’t at all work, being they were scammers and I knew what to look out for, ( they were too good to be true, and asked for money, I cut them right off), and then, I took a chance on another soldier. this one was way different. He didn’t ask me for a thing, then we didn’t talk for awhile, reconnected, and have been very happy ever since. We chat or email every day or sometimes twice a day, we have everything in common, and if I ask him something, he answers me right back, no problem. We tell each other whats on our minds, and ask the very same things as if we were physically on a date with one another. We feel as if we have known each other forever, and have been going strong for almost 4 months now. We feel we are doing the hard work now of getting to know each other, granted, it is in print, but would still be doing the same if we were to be physically being out on a date. The only thing left is to actually be with one another, and that will happen, eventually, when he comes home from being deployed. We are very happy with each other, we both have been through the mill with previous marriages, so we knew what we both wanted and knew what we were looking for. My mom, who is 81 and doesn’t like the world the way it is and lives as if it were 1950, thinks inline dating is wrong, but she is afraid of her own shadow. You have to know what you are looking for, first of all, and you have to go out and meet these people. Get to know them first in print, ask question, just as you would if you were out on a date, see and talk to them about the things you have in common and your differences, and after awhile, meet them.. at a restaurant, a bowling lane, somewhere you feel comfortable in. and whether it is in print, or actually on a date, if something doesn’t feel right, or they try to swoon you with poetry or make things seem too good to be true, then you know they aren’t right. drop them. but you can’t meet the right person if you don’t try.

  9. 309
    Tra

    Soreal

    I met the love of my life on an online dating site almost three years ago. Now we’re engaged to get married next February. Before I met him, I went out on a date with one other guy, but it didn’t work out. I felt a little skeptical about meeting my now fiance, but when he picked me up for our first date, he looked just like the profile pic he posted online. He was honest and he met my children and love began for us from then on. He has been a great friend, supporter, and role model for my youngest child. So give love a chance and try online dating. I can’t hurt.

     

     

  10. 310
    Chili

    Words of advice about online dating:

    1. Posting pictures on your profile is paramount. But unless the people who are viewing your profile are interested in photography, they are only interested in pictures of YOU. They are NOT interested in pictures of your family, pets, vacation, etc.(unless you’re in these pictures). So don’t post pictures you don’t appear in on your profile.

    2. If you make a date and want to break it later, have the decency to call the person on the phone. Only cowards break a date by sending an email or a text message. Also, don’t act like a real jerk by either completely avoiding any contact with the person after you make a date….that is, not calling them, not answering their phone calls, and not returning them……., or waiting until they call you before you tell them you can’t keep the date. Again, have the decency to call them, and make the call when you know you’re not going to keep the date.

    3. If someone sends you a message on an internet dating site, and you’re NOT interested, DON’T reply. Sending a reply will probably entice the person to keep sending you more messages. But if you do, don’t say something stupid like you’re already dating someone. It’s not believable….if that’s really your situation, then why are you on the dating site?

    4. When you’re talking with someone from a dating site, on the phone, or in person,  don’t ramble on and on endlessly about yourself. That’s a major turn off, and something you should know from basic common sense.  But many people do it.

    5. If the main picture on someone’s profile is appealing to you, and you’re thinking of contacting this person, have the common sense to look at ALL of their pictures, and anything else on their profile that may be important to you, BEFORE you decide to send them a message.

    6. If you receive a call from someone you’ve given your number to, and you can’t talk to them at that time, then YOU should return the call. DON’T tell them to call back. They took the initiative to make the call, and obviously didn’t know it was a bad time for you to speak, so YOU should have the decency to make the return call.

    7. If someone wants to meet you, but doesn’t have a cell phone or doesn’t want to give you their phone number, my suggestion is to not meet them.  What can happen and what has happened is that your date could  show up very late or not show up at all for one reason or another, and they may not call to tell you, and you obviously wouldn’t be able to contact them.  Also, it’s very unusual these days for anyone who doesn’t have a cell phone.  So I really have to wonder what’s going on with people who say they don’t have one.

    8.If you’re thinking of  traveling out of town to meet someone who doesn’t live locally, you should first view at each other live through Skype, then you both can decide whether or not to meet.  If either of you needs a web cam, you can buy one very inexpensively on Amazon. Viewing each other live doesn’t guarantee that there’s going to be a connection if you do decide to meet, but it will reduce the chances that there won’t be.    If the person  you’re thinking of meeting doesn’t want to do the live view….DON’T MEET THEM.

    9. Don’t let your friends use your profile to browse through a dating site, especially if you’re a paid subscriber with full membership privileges. Sometimes the friends will contact other members on the site without your knowledge, the recipients will think it’s you, and when they find out it’s someone else, the outcome is not always friendly, …..OR  your friend could contact someone you’ve already met and the date didn’t go well….and you could run into them in the future which could be embarrassing……OR your friends could do something that violates the dating site’s terms and conditions which could get you kicked off the site. Most of these dating sites offer a free membership, which may not allow communication with other members, but do allow viewing other member profiles.  So when your friends ask you if they can use your membership to log onto a dating site that you belong to, tell them to sign up for their own free membership.

    10. Post the CORRECT city and state where you live in your profile….not a place where you used to live, where you want to live, or where your friend lives. It sounds like basic common sense, but intentionally posting a city, state or country where a person doesn’t live does happen. If you’re contacting someone on a dating site, and you tell the person you live somewhere different than what you have posted on your profile, it’s a real turn off, especially if you live in another state or country.

  11. 311
    AdamDickens

    Of course, I know a site where you can find what you want

  12. 312
    Nina

    After being on online dating for over 6 years & meeting absolutely nobody I’m hanging my hat up. I don’t get responses from the majority of guys I’m interested in. I get messages from older bald fat guys who are attracted to strong, confident, curvy, attractive women but that’s it. I may chat with guys to see how it goes but ultimately I’m left frustrated when they disappear off the face of the earth after a few days & don’t reply to messages. I’m now completely resigned to spending my life alone. Internet dating is not for me.

    1. 312.1
      Nat

      Nina, I agree with Hunter’s suggestion! Try a dating coach, or at least start with a dating book or course! Pardon my directness, but your online experience doesn’t sound normal. I have close girl friends who bless the day they had a difficult breakup and picked up a dating book to try figuring it all out. Because they say their lives changed and their dating options improved significantly! U have so little to lose by exploring these options.

  13. 313
    hunter

    nina, a dating coach can help with your situation…

  14. 314
    Usagima

    Hi, so just a positive experience. I spent the last 5 months trying various dating services to see how they worked etc.. Using this site and other resources like you tube etc I reverse engineered a profile that gave enough of a flavour of who I am and that I thought women would respond to. I modified and changed it based on responses etc.. and the process helped me articulate what I wanted also  “Would like a long term relationship but not in a hurry “. There was one lady who caught my eye but I thought I was out of her league. She ‘smiled’ at me and knowing that fortune favours the brave I smiled back, and after 2 weeks agreed to meet. First date I thought I had no chance so relaxed and decided that being out for an evening with a beautiful successful woman wasn’t exactly a bad life experience. 9 dates later things are going well. She had received a lot of contact from guys and some of to be honest was quite shocking. As it turned out it was a single line in my profile that caught her eye in what was probably one of the shorter profiles I wrote.

    1. 314.1
      hunter

      ..tell us more about the single line…

       

      1. 314.1.1
        usagima

        “…… I figure the that if we meet in a public place and keep our pants on, its highly likely we will survive a first date…..”

  15. 315
    Mary

    Of course online dating works!…Through trial and error, and reading advice from experts like Evan, I came up with a ‘formula’ that attracted the kind of men I wanted to meet. Mind you, I am a divorced, stay-at-home-mom in my 40s, so I was looking to meet a man who is family-oriented, financially-secure, and open to long term commitment. Here’s what I did, and recommend these tips to confident, attractive women, of any age. I met many potential matches with this approach, and am happily dating a wonderful man for six months now.

    First…I had a short and simple profile. I kept it light-hearted, and only said things I might actually talk about on a first date.

    Second…I had 3 pix – a close-up in everyday hair/makeup; a full-body shot, dressed up; and a selfie without makeup. …If a man doesn’t find me attractive in these three states, I’d rather not hear from him in the first place.

    Third…I listed myself as ‘Average’ body type. I’m 5’4, size 6/8, and feel that’s average since I am not skinny, and don’t particularly like to work out. It weeded out extremely vain men, who would never respond to an average profile, and attracted the kinder men I am interested in. I also avoided responding to men who sounded arrogant or jaded, in their profile or messages. They ALWAYS proved to be bad first dates.

    Fourth…I did not put preferences for height/weight, income, marital status, kids/no kids in my profile. I did put preferences for religion and education, because those are more values-based.  You’re going to weed people out based on their profile anyway, so why make yourself sound picky in yours? I think you attract better respondents by coming across as approachable…compared to most people’s laundry list of requirements.

    Lastly… and I believe this is key… I NEVER initiated contact, winked, or wrote much back in my replies. I am a firm believer that masculine men are the pursuers, and prize what they go after themselves. Don’t believe the hogwash that it’s smart to approach men first. You will meet men that way, but you’ll never know if he would have made the effort himself. I also think it’s good to create a little intrigue, in not saying so much in early communication.

    Anyway, online dating has been good to me, and I think it’s the best way to meet potential matches you’d never meet IRL. I encourage anyone who is not getting the results they’d like, to ask others what worked for them. Try something different, and adjusting your attitude or expectations. 🙂

  16. 316
    Jenny

    Hi ive been on online dating for years 2 years.. At that time I was slim and very attractive..and I had many responses like tons….I dated the first guy who charmed me and he turned out to be a real jerk..Then I dated a real unattractive guy and he was boring and insecure..there were others poets who were paupers and others…I stopped . and decided to enjoy myself and not focus on dating and just be myself….I was still slim and attractive…. I had a ton of admirers and dates… I just had dinner dates and drinks ….took stock of everyone who wanted a little more and I realised none of them I would marry… I stopped going out and did some serious praying and made changes in my life… I started hanging around an older guy and we were friends and eventually we got engaged and married…. I’m no longer slim and attractive but I live in a fulfilling and real relationship….. When I look back those days when I was good looking had only led me to trouble…..I wasn’t one of those who would take advantage of my looks to find a wealthy guy or stuff like that…so I’m happy and my husband is happy in our life together…….there’s a point to this…. We are that same person online and offline and we meet the same ones at both times in our life.

     

     

     

  17. 317
    Hellacska

    Evan, you got it 100% again….I couldn’t agree more.

    I met my ex-fiancé (ok ok ex, but we lived together etc) on Okcupid. As a nanny it is hard for me to meet new people, especially that I’m getting near 35 and all my used-to-be-single friends are not giving bottles to their babies, or cocooning with their bf. We are not having parties anymore, nor make new friends easily. And I don’t hit on strangers on the metro:p

    I keep staying in the game, even if there was a week with 5 dates (hmm), so sometimes really time consuming, but you start to get to know how to pick men better and better, so success rate goes higher, and honestly I had only one weird-ish date lately, rest was enjoyable and cool guys.

    In 2000s it gathered lots of loners and pervs but now in 2016 it is a very average and common way to get to know people, and date. Just like in real life……

  18. 318
    AZman

    People, in today’s social encironment, online dating is fantastic. I am a successful and divorced middle aged man in my mid 40s and I find that there are a slew of wonderful 40-50 year companion seeking ladies out there. Yes, as a guy, my response rate is about 10% which I find quite acceptable. Not sure what I would do if my response rate went up to even 30%. That will be ovewhelming. I cast a wide net then I can comfortable pay attention to the limited responses I get. It is all in the strategy and it is a numbers game. Besides I still have a hetic job and other life interest to tend to.

    So my fellow men and women in cyber dste world, keep up your efforts and do not give up. Just need to weed through frogs and a few coffee meetups in hope of finding “one”. Actually, I found two in the last 8 months.

    1. 318.1
      hunter

      AZman,, you lucky dog….

       

  19. 319
    Keith

    I’m Keith and here are my thoughts,

    I’m working on a blog called “Out of Our Hands: The Futility of Male Dating” based on a few premises.

    Premise One: The one tangible, observable, empirical feature about a man, his height, is out of his control. A man who is born with short parents or even average parents (which I’ll address in a second) will not be “tall”. He may be, at best, “average” (at or under 5’10), but likely he won’t be “tall” at or above 5’11 (for simplicity, we’ll just say 6 feet). So that’s completely different from one’s weight (man or woman) in the sense that, granted, controlling for thyroid conditions, genetic pre-dispositions to return energy as mass (i.e. bodyfat), accessibility to healthy foods and activity (i.e. lifestyle conditions), a man or woman can influence her or his body…but not his or her height. That’s something that women, I don’t at least, appreciate that the one physical characteristic that is likely to lead to having a female companion is something a man is powerless over.

    Premise Two: Women give awful dating advice
    http://www.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith_100/141_dating_advice.html  http://www.nicknotas.com/blog/women-give-terrible-dating-advice-to-men/

    The one group whom you’re trying to choose from for a dating partner is the one group who can’t give you any insight into that. In other words, it’d be like going to Iran and your local guide doesn’t speak Farsi- the one person you’d think could give you insight into Persian culture can’t. In this context, it’s because women don’t know what they want, and what SUCKS, is the one thing they do want is the one thing you can’t do anything about: height.

    Premise 3: Having said that, we have to deal with the fact that how we make a woman “feel” (disregarding our heights) is something we can’t do anything about. In theory, EVEN IF you’re > 6 feet tall, that won’t matter if at the first date she doesn’t “feel” anything for you, so we have to live our lives knowing that whatever we accomplish in life, if we want to be in love, we’re S.O.L.

    It’s something few women understand. I had one woman admit, “It’s true. A lot of it doesn’t apply to us. We just have to show up,” and that’s just it: all you have to do is to “show up” and that’s the date. Since we’re the “pursuers” we’re the ones who have to “impress” or to “intrigue” you and how we go about doing that…NOT EVEN YOU know why.

    In conclusion, there’s a fine line between “complaining” and “making a point”. I don’t mean to gripe for the sake of griping since that doesn’t accomplish anything, however, I’m making a point to give all the women who see this the perspective that at least you have control over your dating lives, whereas, men don’t.

    It’s something to think about.

     

    1. 319.1
      Karl R

      Keith,

      Premise 2: You apparently haven’t succeeded at dating.  Furthermore, you claim that male dating is futile.  Therefore, any dating advice you give is at least as worthless as the worst advice from women.  (Especially since you didn’t bother to give any advice.)

      Premise 1: The three most important factors for dating success (the attitude with which you approach dating, the actions which you take, and your persistence despite previous failures) are all completely within your control.  They’re less tangible than height, but they are a lot more predicative of your ultimate success.

      Premise 3: In the early steps of dating, you shouldn’t be trying to change how a woman feels about you.  You should be trying to discover whether she’s interested in you.  If not, there’s no need to waste time.  Move on and find out how a different woman feels about you.  (That’s an example of putting actions and persistence into practice.  If you can maintain a positive attitude, that’s the complete trifecta.)

      Premise 4: Women have the same amount of control over their dating lives as men do.  A woman can’t date me unless I want to date her.  I can’t date a woman unless she wants to date me.  She couldn’t “show up” for a first date unless I was sufficiently interested to ask her out.  She couldn’t get a second date unless I felt like asking her out a second time.

       

      Conclusion: If there’s a fine line between “complaining” and “making a point”, then your post falls squarely in the “complaining” category.

      Each time I decided to pursue a woman, the odds of ending up in a permanent relationship were rather low … but the cost of trying was also extremely low.  Most importantly, I only needed to succeed once.

      My dating success is not measured by the number of times I was unsuccessful.  It’s likely that I was unsuccessful more times than you were.  It’s almost guaranteed that Evan was unsuccessful more times than you were.  My dating success is measured by the one time I succeeded.  We celebrated our fourth anniversary last month.

      1. 319.1.1
        hunter

        karl………Bravo…!…Bravo…!

  20. 320
    Keith

    Karl,

    Thanks for the feedback.

    So about my first premise: what “actions” are you referring to? Second, give me your interpretation of “persistence”. If the wom(e)an you would like to have a dating relationship with does not like you (for some reason you numbered the list omitting the number 2), per premises 2 & 3, and even she doesn’t know why doesn’t, then, pretell, what “actions” (or how will your “persistence”) will matter?

    What I’m putting forth is, it’s people like you (if you don’t mind my saying) that are, frankly, the problem. You’re not appreciating the fact that there are some men, probably > we think, who don’t have ANY success in dating off/online, yet, they’re told by people like you in so many words, “Oh, well, as long as you have a positive attitude, and are ‘confident’ (my most detested of all buzzwords), and are ‘outgoing’, then you’ll succeed! It just hinges on your ‘attitude’ (tied for “confidence” as my most loathed buzzword)!” Bud, it doesn’t matter, ok? If she’s already married; if she’s already in a committed relationship; if she just plain doesn’t like you, regardless, how your “attitude” and your “confidence” are going to change that is something I haven’t seen any conclusive evidence for, and ultimately, men that hear those types of things are going to have false hope and their expectations shattered like a Ming vase dropped from the Sears Tower.

    I understand what you meant about “moving on” since that will (probably) help your emotional health but what I don’t think you’re understanding is that a lot of men who are on these types of comment threads (i.e. men who fail at finding a partner via online dating) are men who, attitude or not, can’t find a partner- one reason perhaps being < 6 feet tall, which, as I felt I made rather clear, is beyond his control.

    Lastly, about “showing up”, Karl, who asked out whom? If a man goes to the trouble of asking out a woman, arranging for everything, financing the event, would it be more likely he’d want to continue the relationship than the alternative? Of course women don’t get second dates, but I’d say it’s disproportional in the same vein that “attitude” is 9 out of 10 units my life experience than what actually happens (I’m being facetious there parodying the famous “Attitude” speech) that that happens compared to men not receiving second dates. If you “Google” studies in the reporting of which group is more likely to receive unsolicited messages on online dating sites, obviously, you’ll find attractive women, far and away, receive offers than men do. So I don’t think I’m wrong to assert that when we compare the two genders’ controls over their dating lives, women, clearly, have more control over theirs than men do.

    Karl, bottom line, any woman who receives attention regularly probably doesn’t realize how less attention she’d receive if she weren’t attractive or if she were male. Because men are the “pursuers” then they have to be rejected far more than women do and it’s not “complaining”- it’s make a sociological observation that in the 50-60 years that women have made far-reaching advances in virtually all walks of life that we’re still confined to the gender role (we being males) of being the “pursuer” which I’d like to point out, per my blog, that it means conceding a lot of power.

    1. 320.1
      Karl R

      Keith,

      I believe that you misinterpreted some of what I said, but I will happily clarify and expand upon what I said.

      Attitude: When I was in my teens and early twenties, I had a very similar attitude to yours.  In my mid-20s I realized that a small percentage of women (somewhere between 1% and 5%) found me attractive, even though I was scrawny and geeky.  At that point, I realized that I could succeed.  I just had to focus my efforts on that small segment of women.

      Confidence: I didn’t start with confidence.  When I realized how crucial confidence was to dating, I learned how to fake confidence.  Then I discovered that some of the most “confident” men that I knew were just faking it too.

      I learned to fake confidence before I had any success.  As I started to fake it better, a slightly larger percentage of women began finding me attractive, and I began having some small successes.

      Redefining “Success”: In 2008, I met woman, went on two dates with her, but never got a third date.  In most people’s view, that would not be a success.

      My perspective is different — After spending 3 hours in Saturday morning yoga classes, my t-shirt soaked with sweat, I went into a diner for some coffee and breakfast.  I sat down at the counter next to an attractive Argentinian woman, struck up a conversation, got her email address, an excuse to contact her, and eventually two dates.  A year before that, I would not have had the courage to do that.

      I looked at my dating experiences and saw (in the small successes) evidence that I was eventually going to succeed.  It would have been as easy (or easier) to focus on the failures and develop a sense of futility.  But my ultimate success proves that my small successes were pointing toward my ultimate success.

      Actions: In that diner, there were four empty seats.  I chose one that put me next to an attractive young woman.  I gave myself the goal of striking up a conversation with her.  If things were going well, it was up to me to get her email or phone number before we left.

      You need to take actions that create opportunities.  With zero opportunities, you have no chance of success.  With a small number of opportunities, you have a low chance of success.  If you generate a large number of opportunities, you guarantee your eventual success.

      Persistence: I never “persisted” with a woman who was disinterested.  I persisted by continuing to meet and pursue other women.

      When real life opportunities were lacking, I would go online.  But as I became more comfortable approaching women in a wide variety of circumstances, I was rarely lacking a “next” opportunity to pursue in real life.

      Realistic Expectations: Most women won’t be attracted to me.  I dated the minority who were.  Many of the women who agreed to a first date weren’t interested in a second date.  That’s normal.  Very few of those second dates evolved into any kind of committed relationship.  Therefore, if I wanted a committed relationship, I knew that it would take a significant number of first and second dates to get one.

      Of the committed relationships, none of them lasted more than a year … until the one with my wife.

      Those are realistic expectations.

      You seem to be fixating on women who aren’t available or who aren’t interested.  You should be writing them off and moving on.  Instead, you seem to be seeking some way to succeed (whether through attractiveness, confidence, attitude, actions, persistence or whatever).  Successful daters (of both sexes) are too smart to fall into that line of thinking.

      False Hopes vs. Real Actions: If you have taken the time to develop “hopes” for a particular relationship, then it’s highly likely that you’re taking too long to act.  I didn’t “hope” for a relationship with my wife.  I asked her out to see what would happen.  (Another man in that social circle was hoping for a relationship with her.  I blew by him like he was standing still … because he was standing still.)

      If I thought a woman was interesting (and interested in me), it was my goal to hit on her before I developed any hopes.

      There are three major benefits to this course of action.  First, if the woman wasn’t interested, I wasn’t even sure that I would really like her.  Therefore, I was less bothered by the “rejection”.  Second, since she expressed her disinterest before getting to know me, it didn’t feel personal.  She was clearly rejecting me for fairly superficial reasons.  Third, it created the illusion of confidence.

      Over / Under 6 feet Tall: I’m less than 6′ tall (not by much).  Evan is 5’9″.  One of my buddies is 5’4″.  He got married 6 months before I did.  Tall men have an easier time.  Young women have an easier time.  Beautiful people of both sexes have an easier time.  Even for those people, it’s rarely easy.  It’s just a bit less difficult.

      If you’re waiting for a level playing field, you’ll be waiting until you die.  Learn to succeed even when the odds are stacked against you.  Better yet, learn how to maximize the few advantages you have.

      Shorter people than you have gotten married.  Stop making excuses and learn from their example.  (Poorer, older, fatter and uglier people have gotten married too.)

      Power / Control is Equal Among the Sexes: Take a moment and visualize the most repulsive woman you’ve ever seen.  Do you have her image fixed clearly in your mind?

      Does she have the power to make you pursue her?  Can she exert some form of control to get you to ask her out?

      Power. Is. Equal. Between. The. Sexes.

      1. 320.1.2
        Emily, the original

        Karl R

        What a positive, well written, well thought-out post! Thank you.  🙂

      2. 320.1.3
        S.

        Thanks, Karl.  I knew this stuff but it’s good to read it again with bold lettering. 🙂

        I understand why it’s so hard not to keep thinking of those who are disinterested.  It’s so many people! And you already are acquainted with them so it seems easier than continually starting over.  But it’s a numbers game in some ways.  I still reiterate that I don’t want to go out on 300 dates. I don’t want to go out on 100 dates even if it was guaranteed that number 100 would be the right one. I would just be so exhausted by that time I don’t think I’d appreciate him or would be in the right mind to really take him in.

        I take breaks so I can stay positive and bubbly when I do go back to dating, even if it means meeting less people.  And I totally agree with building on small successes.  That works in many things in life.  The sorting can get difficult and successes few and far between.  But they do happen!  It’s more of a challenge and a longer period of time for some of us, but I too am convinced everyone could find someone eventually if they persist.

        learn how to maximize the few advantages you have.

        Thanks!

        1. Keith

           

          Karl,

          To be honest with you, this really isn’t getting us anywhere so it’s denigrated into a race for the last word. I’m actually tired of exchanging replies so this’ll be my last one and I forfeit the last word (because I’m sure you’ll reply). For now, listen, can we agree, at least, that more women get asked out for dates than men do and that more women reject men than men reject women?

          Attitude: Karl, what does recognizing at least 95% of women found you unattractive prove? If you’re going to head this with “attitude” define that term for me. Seriously, if a lexicographer tasked you with defining “attitude” what would you provide? To me, it’s a buzzword that is thrown around much too often and is an excuse not to recognize things are they are but how we “perceive” them (Check out Barbara Ehrenreich’s 2009 publication Bright Sided: How the Relentless Pursuit of Positive Thinking Undermines America)

           

          Confidence: Again, it’s a “buzzword”. I think the danger in having “confidence” is it makes you disregard women’s boundaries and their cues since you’re so “assured” of yourself that you don’t realize that you’re a big fish in a small pond when you starting thinking you’re the shit. I know that’s not what you said, but, Karl, how else do you define that term? What I would say is, you just can’t think you “need” to have a relationship since it’ll make you anxious with too much pressure on yourself, yet, it’s di, and I think that words like “attitude” or “confidence” don’t appreciate the fact that so much of your dating success is out of your hands (which I’ll get to next).

           

          Redefining “Success”: You’re right. In 2008, paying for someone else’s meal/beverage/venue ticket twice and having that person never speak to you would not be viewed as successful if the goal was to continue speaking with that person. What’s your point?

           

          Similarly, I’m not sure what your point is when you bring up the anecdote about the Argentine woman because all I got from it was you evidently (frankly) aren’t that hygienic (which men and women both would be repulsed by) and that you spend 3 hours at yoga class which I’m wondering how you have that much time on your hands. So, your hygiene and time management aside, ok, dude, I used to listen to those types of stories both in print and anecdotally and, per the false hopes I alluded to, it made me think that I could just talk to “anyone” since that meant I had “confidence” and I was being proactive. Through experience I can ask you these questions:

          a) How did you start the conversation? Since she was Argentine did you ask her the same question Jim Carrey asked the Austr(ail)ian in the beginning of Dumb and Dumber “That’s a lovely accent you have. New Jersey?” In other words, how did you spark a conversation sopped with sweat without looking creepy, and the sweat aside, did you say, “Hi. I’m Karl. What’s your name?” See, this is where context comes into play…

           

          b) How did you know she wasn’t already married? How did you know this woman didn’t already have a boyfriend? If you weren’t sure about her availability, how did you know her dude wasn’t going to show up and catch hitting on his wife or girlfriend?

           

          c) Whether or not you were sure about her availability, let’s say she was, in fact taken. How would you deal with the (off-the-charts) awkwardness of placating a man for hitting on his girlfriend or wife?

           

          d) Ok. Let’s say, for argument’s sake, by some miracle she was single (assuming). How would you deal with it, then, if a fellow male competitor told you, “Hey why don’t you leave the woman alone and come back when you’ve taken a shower?”

          See, my point is, very rarely, if ever, do we address context when it comes to “confidence”. The fact is, no matter how “confident” you’re acting (which, again, you have yet to define), there are contextual factors that don’t get addressed and they probably don’t because they’re beyond a given man’s control.

           

          Actions: This is basically a regurgitation of the “confidence” section. Number one, dude, how many women at this place do you hit on? You’d already gotten the contact info of an Argentine woman so why were you getting someone else’s (unless they’re the same person)? Also, is the manager aware that you enter her or his establishment without showering and that you strike up conversations with people you don’t know when, if you’re not careful, despite your best intentions, might make you persona non grata.

          Maybe instead of creating a “large number of opportunities” you can prioritize how likely a woman will be receptive to you, take contextual factors into consideration (e.g. what you have to talk about, the environment, and IF SHE’S SINGLE to start with).

           

          Persistence: “Wide variety of circumstances”, huh? Dude, where do you live where there are that many women who aren’t already with their friends and/or at least one man who probably wouldn’t appreciate you hitting on his partner…?

           

          Realistic Expectations: Sir, this is probably the heart of our discussion and my entire point….how do you know that there aren’t men who will never get beyond a second date?

           

          This is where I get a little perturbed by the whole “It’s just a numbers game” attitude since it’s not acknowledging that there do, in fact, exist men who will never get beyond a second date…for factors beyond their controls.

           

          Your definition of “success” that I’m getting is: “If I get dates, then I must be doing something right and I’ll focus on that instead of being a Negative Nelson J” and, Karl, that’s not success—that’s plateauing.

          I get dates, too, dude. Most of the guys on this thread probably get dates from online dating, yet, don’t go any further than that, hence, the reason for the thread, so while I suppose for your own emotional health it’s good that you can not get too bogged down in spending your money on people you’ll never talk to again (i.e. dating) but there comes a point that you realize, “Damn not only am I out all this money buying people dinner, drinks, and/or tickets, but I’m not getting a return on it either.”

           

          False Hopes vs. Real Actions: First: Dude, are you interested or not in her? Ok so if you’re interested how are you not “hoping” for a relationship with her? Isn’t that what “interest” means is you’d like to have a consensual relationship with a woman assuming you’re not gay? Again define your terms, which, frankly, you’ve done a rather shitty job of, Karl.

          Second: “It’s not personal, Sonny. It’s strictly business.” I always think of that line from The Godfather whenever I hear “personal” haha. It makes me laugh because whenever someone says not to take it “personal” in the context of dating it’s a euphemism for making peace someone doesn’t like you (see Conclusion for how language masks the truth). Despite the fact that the woman doesn’t “hate” doesn’t mean that it’s not “personal” in the sense that her rejection of you isn’t reflective of anything about you. Au contraire, obviously, it must be kind of personal otherwise she would be interested, right? Anyway, also, I’ll address that more in the Conclusion.

           

          Third: If you’re going to fake an emotion, take acting classes while you’re at it.

           

          Over / Under 6 feet Tall:  Yeah I love how you feel compulsed to point out “not by much” that you’re less than 6 feet tall. Really need to put that out there that you’re 5’11.9999” right?

          So you’re basically just repeating me using different phrasing. “Easy” is “less difficult” by definition. Easy in the English language is “less difficult” than an alternative. How about we agree to this: Young, beautiful women have the “least difficult” time if we’re going to measure difficulty by “more or less”?

           

          You’re right. It’s not a level playing field, Karl. Yet, for whatever reason, you expect men via “confidence” or “the right attitude” to expect it to be a level playing field. You’ve already given two anecdotes about how you hit on two women, Argentine and young respectively, who probably would be risen a few inches above you on said playing field, yet, you make it sound like all you had to be was to be “confident” and, bam, you’re suddenly on their levels, so, what I’m getting at is, Karl, you (in a lot of ways during this debate) can’t have it both ways and tell men, “Hey, yeah, it’s not a level playing field, bro” and then turn around and brag about how it’s that easy to rise to said level.

           

          This speaks to what I’m going to wrap up the whole diatribe with. Ok. With all due respect, Karl, the woman who’s your wife, is she someone you got excited over immediately? Is she what we’d call a “knock out”? She probably isn’t, is she? If she’s not, then it probably took some time (focus on that phrase “some time”) for you to want her as your partner in life and vice versa. What I’m getting at is, she probably wasn’t necessarily someone, immediately, whom you got “excited” over; she probably wasn’t someone who had option after option after option after option like a “knock out” would; you had the utmost good fortune that the options she did have weren’t sufficient enough to make her choose them over you, and thus, fortune allowed for all the things beyond your control to work in your favor, right, and even though we would probably try to think of a euphemism for this, yes, to an extent, you “settled” as did the aforemtioned “poorer, older, fatter, and uglier people” who “[got] married, too.” We seem to avoid using the word “settling” but, really, that’s what you have to do is to redefine success, and, that, I’ll agree with.

           

          This is what I would criticize is this practice of telling men to have “confidence” and to have a “good attitude” because those things encourage to keep going for women who aren’t interested in you, nor are available, nor are even that easy to keep since they’re very likely to have plenty of not-you options.

           

          Karl, I could have been like you and gotten married to a woman whom I connected with but not a woman I found myself “excited” over. She was cute, intelligent, and we connected emotionally; she accepted me as me. However, in my stupidity, I bought into the bullshit that we call “dating advice” and I thought I could do better and I heeded the advice of “not settling” if I had “confidence” and the “right attitude” and, thus, I missed out on someone I probably would have had a very cohesive and meaningful marriage with.

           

          As an aside, I actually told this to a figure competitor on OKCupid, actually, in the intervening two days: “[The reason that you have to give the admonition that unqualified men need not apply is because men who aren’t at your body appearance level are encouraged to have ‘confidence’ and to have the ‘right attitude’ to approach you even though you make it very clear you prefer men with aesthetically favorable bodies]”. Imagine her frustration every time a “confident” guy hits on her at the restaurant after yoga….

           

          Power / Control is Equal Among the Sexes:

           

          Karl, my question to you is:

           

          What if she’s the only type of woman who’ll date me or another man on this thread?

           

          See, this is where you want it both ways: you ridicule men for wanting to date women who aren’t reciprocal in their interests, nor are available, yet you’re agreeing with me that I’d be justified to turn away a “repulsive” woman.

           

          So I’ll ask you again: WHAT IF A “REPULSIVE” WOMAN IS THE ONLY TYPE OF WOMEN WHO WILL DATE ME AND/OR WILL BE AVAILABLE TO DATE?

           

          Some men have no other options, Karl. Despite their “attitudes” and their “confidence” the only women who will agree to be their dating partners are not women they, in turn, would be excited enough about to want let alone to maintain relationships with. This is the point at which we need a paradigm shift: It does not matter your “confidence”, nor your “attitude”. All that matters is whether or not a woman to whom you’re attracted will:

           

          A) Not have a man interested in her who will compete with you up to and including intimidating you

           

          B) Be available (which is by no means likely)

           

          C) Be attracted to you as well (the hardest)

           

          A, B, C are the three components that you increasingly less control over, which is why, honestly, the only dating advice, if I were to give any, that I’d take even remotely seriously is to learn self-defense. Evidently your competitor you alluded earlier to wasn’t a violent-prone man. Trust me, dude: a lot of men would not have any problem assaulting you if it meant making you look bad in front of a woman you’re both vying for, with the bonus of (legitimately) boosting your confidence (i.e. so it’s not a buzzword anymore). Unfortunately, since the entire onus falls on to the man to be the “pursuer” and women are the “pursued” and use euphemisms to gloss over the truth of that with “less difficult” and “playing fields” and so forth we have made zilch in any kind of progress. This is what George Carlin alluded to in his 1991 standup routine in which he asserted that “there is a language created by smug, white people” that masks the truth in the way of euphemisms: “The Pentagon doesn’t lie to the public it engages in misinformation; companies don’t lay off people anymore—they curtail redundancies is the workforce resulting in people succumbing to a negative cashflow…THEY’RE FUCKING BROKE!” and now, in 26 years later, we probably describe involuntary celibacy as “being single” because you’re not “confident” enough in situations you have very little, if any, control over despite how good/bad your “attitude” is.

           

          In conclusion…I am an involuntarily celibate man. I’ve been fed enough bullshit either from you, from “David D’Angelo”, from “Evan Marc Katz”, from Will Smith’s character in Hitch and it smacks of the medieval friar charging money for “indulgences” which probably isn’t too unlike “dating tips” 800 years later in the U.S.—forking over money to someone who can’t change a situation that’s not meant to be changed either being one’s mortality or one’s involuntary celibacy.

           
          To quote a friend on how to end one’s involuntary celibacy:
           
          “The truth is, there are no simple answers to complex issues with thousands of factors. Sometimes the advice does work so it gets repeated… or at least it seems to be the cause for success. A detailed analysis of why any human pairing occurs has virtually an unlimited number of contributing factors. Insisting that there is ‘An answer’ is simplistic thinking. ”

          That was my friend’s point just like it’s my point: Karl, some people just can’t find a partner they genuinely love; at least women are valued for something that they can control: their appearances. Sure it’s not GUARANTEED like death and taxes they’ll find a man they genuinely love, but, as I hope you agreed with me earlier, they’ll at least have options. Men, on the other hand, just as you yourself are proof of, have to be grateful for the women who are willing to be their partners. It’s not about “attidude” “confidence” “outlook” it’s just simple facing reality, ok?

           

           
          And if you think you’re like Tom Cruise, Karl, I’d agree. Not because you’re (probably not) a scientology adherent, nor a celebrity, but simply because…”you can’t handle the truth”.
           

           

           

        2. Karl R

          Keith,

          I recognize that everyone on this thread will have to endure another diatribe of yours (since you will feel obliged to get in the last word).  Hopefully the answers I provide to a few of your questions will benefit other men enough to make it worthwhile.

          a) I was going to start the conversation with the Argentinian woman by commenting on the hurricane that had hit the city one week before.  Before I could, the waitress mistook us for a couple (despite the clear mismatch), and I used that as an icebreaker instead.

          One of the best icebreakers is commenting on a current shared experience, especially if it’s an uncommon circumstance (like a recent hurricane … or getting mistaken for being the boyfriend / girlfriend of a total stranger).

          b) The woman wasn’t wearing a ring on her finger.  As for other serious relationships … That’s the point of starting the conversation.  I was figuring out whether she was available, and whether I wanted to ask for her contact info.

          c) If a boyfriend showed up, I would have complimented him on his charming girlfriend.  Unless you’re crude and creepy, it’s hardly awkward.

          d) If another man decided he was going to be a “competitor” and made such a rude statement, I would have been delighted.  The woman was already enjoying our conversation, and that kind of interruption is highly likely to get a woman to jump to my defense.

           

          This exemplifies the difference between my attitude / confidence and yours.  You have pointed out many reasons why I shouldn’t have expected to succeed.  Despite all those reasons, I felt comfortable asking a complete stranger, “So, how badly was your place hit by the hurricane?”

          You fear failure.  You fear awkwardness.  I don’t.  I recognize them as things I will encounter on the road to success.

           

           

          If the woman had responded to my initial conversation with some degree of disinterest, I would have respected her boundaries and not pursued the conversation further.  If the woman had a boyfriend, I would have respected the relationship but enjoyed the conversation.

          Ironically, you went out of your way to insult my hygiene (and time-management skills).  I completely agree that sweat-soaked yoga clothes are rather gross.  But apparently, I am more confident, and therefore more successful, when I’m gross than you are when you’re dressed in your best.

           

           

          Actions (redux):

          You talk about prioritizing based on the likelihood that the woman will be receptive, and you talk about taking contextual factors into account.  Fine.

           

          When doing that, does it motivate you to take action and create dating opportunities?

          I walked into a diner (where I expected zero dating opportunities), saw one opportunity (at really low odds), and decided that I had nothing better to do for that half hour than take a long-shot.

          I found out whether she was single and interested in me by starting a conversation.  And as I mentioned in the original anecdote, that was the goal I had given myself.

          You would have let your fears (including your fear of getting beaten up by a hypothetical potential rival) give you an excuse not to act at all.

          When I had the opportunity to figure out which women were the most receptive, and the opportunity to prioritize accordingly, I did even better.

           

          Realistic Expectations (redux):

          Nobody is perfect.  Everyone compromises on something. Furthermore, we can expect to get someone who is approximately our equal (a little better in some areas, a little worse in others).

          I’m not a knockout, so I never expected to end up with a knockout.  (I probably could have, but it would have required compromising on qualities that I find far more important.) Some women find me attractive, so I expected to end up with someone that I found attractive.  (My wife is cute and sexy.)

          That “excited” feeling that you were seeking … it’s called infatuation.  It wears off.  If you ended a good relationship in order to chase a temporary feeling, then you probably weren’t being very realistic.

          (I realize that you put it under persistence, but you can also realistically expect most women to go out with a small group of their friends. Start a conversation with the group.  Problem solved.)

           

          Keith asked:

          “So I’ll ask you again: WHAT IF A ‘REPULSIVE’WOMAN IS THE ONLY TYPE OF WOMEN WHO WILL DATE ME AND/OR WILL BE AVAILABLE TO DATE?”

          Since you previously connected with a woman who was cute, intelligent, and accepted you as you are, it is reasonable to expect that you can date a cute woman again (unless you’ve let yourself go to hell in the meantime).

           

           

          Keith’s friend said:

          “The truth is, there are no simple answers to complex issues with thousands of factors. Sometimes the advice does work so it gets repeated… or at least it seems to be the cause for success. A detailed analysis of why any human pairing occurs has virtually an unlimited number of contributing factors. Insisting that there is ‘An answer’ is simplistic thinking.”

          You both are really overthinking the issue.  Over 250 million people in the U.S. are married.  A substantial number are below average (by whatever metric you choose to use).  None of them did a detailed analysis of human pairings or solved the complex issues of the nearly unlimited factors at play.

          In general, they went out, met people and took actions which created opportunities. Eventually, it worked.

          There are best practices, which work better than worst practices.  Doing nothing … that’s in the “worst practices” category.  I tried it for a decade.  It’s very “safe”, but it generated very few dates.

          About 11 years ago, I decided to get proactive about my dating.  I spent some time reading the advice that was out there (and even longer learning which advice was actually correct / useful). Instead of accepting your premise (dating is largely outside of a man’s control), I decided to find out how much of my dating success was within my control.

          I was truly surprised by some of my results.

      3. 320.1.4
        Marika

        Thank you, Karl!

        I was going to reply to Keith’s message to let him know you’re spot on, but I doubt he’d listen. So to any other men feeling like Keith, from a woman’s perspective, Karl is right. Women dig confidence. We differ in terms of what we find attractive physically (side note: I’m a tall women and have dated shorter men, and my friend is happily married to a much shorter man than her), but I don’t know any women who don’t find confidence attractive.

        I had a friend in university who was not that physically attractive, but his confidence made you feel like he must be attractive. He was inundated with female attention. Even if you need to “fake it til you make it”, & unless you’re a narcissist, I think developing more confidence would be a great step.

        In the example of the Argentinian woman, Keith, I would imagine even if she was in a relationship, she would’ve been flattered & impressed by Karl’s interest in her.

        Karl, I know you don’t date men, but if you had to give similar tips to women..what would they be? I’m very heart centred, so find it hard to approach dating like you did, so logically. What have you picked up about what works best for women, if you don’t mind me asking? I’m tall & blond & thin (and according to some of the guys should have it easy in dating, but I don’t!). Thank you in advance 🙂

        1. Karl R

          Marika,

          I’m going to assume that you’re asking from the perspective of a woman who is not trying to take the role of the initiator (traditionally the man’s role).  If you are going to be the initiating, driving force, roughly follow the advice I give to men, but expect slightly worse results (because some guys get weirded out or turned off).

          Some advice is universal. The only thing you get to change is you. You can get someone who is approximately equal to you, better in some areas, worse in others. Everyone compromises, but you get to choose what you compromise on. The more requirements you have, the longer your search will take.

           

          As a woman who is trying to get a guy to make a move, you want the man to feel like his advance will be well received.  Evan’s advice is to make eye contact and smile.  I completely agree. (On the other hand, avoiding eye contact is a strong suggestion that you don’t want the man to approach you.)

          As Keith implied (and I will confirm), most men are intimidated about walking up to a group of women.  You’ll seem more approachable if you’re flying solo.

          Be aware of physical barriers.  For example, if there’s a table between you and a man, you will seem less approachable than if you’re on the near side of the table.

           

          On the more proactive level, genuine compliments will put you on someone’s radar.  There was a woman who I was strongly considering asking out (except I started dating my wife first) whom I noticed, because she told me, “I always enjoy watching you dance, because you seem to be having the best time.”

          Until that woman gave me that compliment, I hadn’t noticed that she had existed, even though we’d been in the same dance venue more than once.  Afterwards, we started becoming friends.  If things hadn’t worked out with my wife, I likely would have asked that woman out next.

           

          That segues nicely into another point — get introduced.  I met my wife when a mutual friend introduced us.  I was interested in the mutual friend, so I was nice to her cute little friend.  It turned out that the cute little friend was the real catch.

           

          Other points have been covered here repeatedly. Be happy. Have fun. Be easy to get along with. Don’t create drama. Give mulligans (credit to Bridget Katz for that one).

          In addition, don’t underestimate confidence for women, too.  I could write pages of anecdotes, but it’s simpler to say that confidence in women is equally important as confidence in men.

          As a final point, don’t let dating difficulties sap your confidence. As I told Keith, dating is difficult for everyone. Thanks to the paparazzi, we can watch the world’s sexiest people struggle with it. Dating is hard. That’s normal. You’re just trying to make it somewhat easier for yourself.

  21. 321
    YOLO

    Online dating is a great way to set up dates, however I find a lot of women on dating sites to be rude and really abuse the fact that it’s easy for them.

    There is nothing worse then sending messages to women only to get flat out ignored. The worse is when the woman sends you an ice breaker and then goes onto ignore you after sending her an initial message.

    For those on here talking as if height is the be all and end all. I am 6 ft , slim and I still struggle immensely. Women in general online, even the ugly ones are extremely selective and unless they find your photos attractive you are not going to get anywhere. It’s frankly annoying and unfair for guys.

    the good news is that looks are subjective.

  22. 322
    Marika

    Karl R,

    Thank you. You were right in your assumption. I don’t want to be the ‘alpha female’ (and that’s not naturally who I am, anyway), but equally I don’t want to sit on my hands and wait for a man to magically appear. I want to maximise my chances of meeting a great partner, and not turn into a bitter person who gripes about how hard dating is. I was impressed with your approach and how you took dating seriously and made concerted efforts to improve yourself and your dating outcomes. I was also impressed at how you looked at things – ie. many people who try online dating with no success after several months look at it as a failure, but you looked at how it helped in a general sense & what you got out of it.

    While I’m optimistic and positive about dating in general and would never gripe at how horrible dating/men/the whole world is, I must admit I find it hard sometimes to keep going back and trying again and again when things happen like people ghost/only want sex/come on strong at first & then flake out (which is what I’m going through at the moment). So I find your words and attitude helpful and encouraging.

    I know you’re married, but as many people have asked, please come back and check this out from time to time and chime in when you can 🙂

    PS I’m assuming when you referred to the anecdote about the Argentinian woman, you do Bikram yoga (due to the sweat, which ‘cold’ yoga doesn’t really produce)? Shout out to a fellow Bikram devotee!!

  23. 323
    di

    well it does work for some people.  Both my daughters met their husbands though Match.

    Not to be plugging that one specific site..but I believe if you have to *pay* for something it has more of a meaning..than say the freebee sites.

    Both my sons-in-laws are wonderful, the girls found what they were looking for, so makes me feel good.

     

    -Di

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