Online Dating is the Worst. What Should I Do?

 

I am so discouraged by online dating. Seems after 1-2 exchanges, men get vulgar and aggressively sexual. If you retreat, they call you uptight and dump you. I don’t think it’s anything I’m doing or saying. I’m left feeling drenched in ick.

Jessica

Aw, Jessica, I hear you.

My first book was about online dating.

My first company was an online dating profile writing site.

My first audio program was a comprehensive how-to-guide to meet better men online.

My first TED talk was about online dating.

To say I have thoughts about online dating would be the understatement of the year.

Every day, I listen to women complain about the realities of 21st century dating – and their complaints are 100% valid.

Online dating was ALREADY shallow when I was doing it from 1997-2007.

Then Tinder, Bumble, Hinge and CoffeeMeetsBagel happened and the only vestiges of depth – longer profiles and longer email exchanges – were removed, leaving a fast, frictionless medium where everyone is judged on looks and everyone is disposable.

Contrast that to a time when men went out to a party and spent the entire night trying to procure one woman’s phone number written on a napkin, and yeah, we’re in a different time right now. One where everyone is overscheduled, texting ten people, and looking for any reason to dismiss the next stranger.

You are mistaken if you draw the conclusion that online dating is a pure waste of time.

It’s not just icky men either, although they are disturbingly prevalent. I have friends who are so fed up with flaky women from dating apps – women who bail in the middle of a text exchange, women who cancel plans at the last minute without explanation, women who are so busy as to be virtually unbookable.

These men, too, are at wit’s end (without the dick pics).

So while you’re not wrong that the entire endeavor can feel pretty demoralizing, you are mistaken if you draw the conclusion that online dating is a pure waste of time.

It’s not. And it’s not even debatable.

Every new client who tells me she hates online dating, gets offered a proposition.

I don’t care about online dating,” I say, her ears perking up. “I’m a dating coach. All I care is that when we talk on the phone every other week, you’re going to have stuff going on. So, if you can guarantee me that you’re going to have at least one date every single week for us to talk about, you can completely skip online dating.

I’ve never had anyone take me up on my offer.

Unless you’re 25, attractive and in a very social, population dense place, online dating is a mandatory supplement for “real life.”

Put another way: if you go on one date a month without online dating, you have 12 chances of finding love each year. If you go on one date a week doing it my way, you have 52 chances of finding love each year. It should seem obvious that online dating is a presence that should be readily maintained, just like a gym membership or a yoga practice.

But what about how much it SUCKS?

Yeah, I know. But that’s what I’m here for. I’m not going to change men, Tinder, your location, or anything that’s beyond my control. But I can help you write a killer online dating profile that attracts higher quality men. I can teach you how to flirt with men on and offline. I can illustrate how to schedule your time so that you control online dating instead of it controlling you. I can show you a method to lead guys from the dating site to a first date without getting stuck in endless texts. I can show you how to differentiate yourself from all the other women he’s talking to and make him choose YOU.

Alas, I can’t do it if you give up.

So if you want to find love, you don’t meet enough guys in real life, and want to do something different to get different results, please click here.

And if you want me to teach you this personally, please click here.

You don’t have to suffer. You just have to conquer what’s currently dragging you down.

Some women do it. Why not you?

Join our conversation (152 Comments).
Click Here To Leave Your Comment Below.

Comments:

  1. 1
    Clare

    Yep, online dating is here to stay. If I think about my single friends, all of them are on Tinder or Bumble or met the person they are with on Tinder or Bumble. In fact, most of my friends who got married recently met on a dating app. This in itself is encouraging.

    I met the guy I am dating now on Tinder.

    But online dating can be very draining. The sheer volume of people is overwhelming. I’ve never been sent a dick pic or had a guy try to start an inappropriate sexual conversation with me, but the way people over-text, or drift in and out of contact, or flake, is very disheartening. And for me, those aren’t even the biggest problems with it. For me, it’s the endless mediocre dates. You set up a date with a guy, and you allow yourself to get excited… and then you meet him and there’s just no spark. That has hands-down been my biggest downside with online dating… the dates with pleasant but boring guys. They are complete gentlemen and get the bill and follow up to see you again, but spend all night talking about the triathlon they’re training for, or their new tech start-up company, or the latest sci-fi series that they’re obsessed with.

    I used to really battle to turn such guys down when they wanted to see me again after a mediocre first date, but these days I do, and I do it as quickly and painlessly as I can. No chemistry = no second date. If there is some chemistry, however, I’ll go out with them again.

    Anyway, that was just me going off on a tangent about my own personal gripe with online dating. I’m still extremely grateful for it. Whatever its downsides, they are manageable, and it still offers you unprecedented access to people you would likely never have met otherwise. And every now and again, you meet someone amazing. Obviously I have no way of knowing whether the guy I’m dating now will work out, but when I met him, he blew me away. From the first moment he looked at me and uttered the first sentence I thought “I’m in trouble.”

    It’s wonderful to have that experience to contrast with all the ho-hum ones! 😀

    1. 1.1
      Sabrina

      hey! How long have you been inline dating for? Totally agree with what youre sating. I find that there are LOTS of guys looking for relationships and are good guys… but such little chemistry!! And i know it shouldnt be the main focus, but god.. it def needs to be there!! Glad to hear you met someone interesting. Him long have you been dating him for ?

      1. 1.1.1
        Clare

        Hi Sabrina,

        I have been online dating for nearly 6 years – on and off. There have been times I was involved with someone, or just needed to take a break, where I was of course not doing online dating, but yeah, I have met a lot of guys online and gone on a lot of dates. In the beginning, I used to do the dating sites – these days, it is mostly Tinder and Bumble.

        And yes – absolutely agree with you! I have met lots of seemingly good guys, but many of them just bored me :/ The chemistry does need to be there, in my opinion, or it’s just a non-starter. You need to feel excited about the guy. It doesn’t need to be through the roof, but I think it does need to be at least a 6.5/7 out of 10.

        I have been seeing the guy I’m dating now for nearly 6 weeks. I have to say it was extremely refreshing to meet someone I was excited about who also seemed to like me back and who has been fairly consistent as well. Very nice change and a lovely experience 🙂

         

        1. SparklingEmerald

          Hi Clare – Happy to hear that you are still seeing your guy !   Keep us posted.  Inquiring minds want to know !

        2. Clare

          Thanks SE!

          Well for once, he is single (not separated), and no kids and never previously married. Not that I have anything against guys who are divorced or who have children, but it is simpler to date someone who is without those things.

          He also lives 10-15 minutes drive away from me, and again, long distances have not been a dealbreaker for me in the past, but it is refreshing to be able to make last minute plans if we want to without it being a big deal.

          He’s also just a very straightforward, open person and seems to be an honest, direct communicator. We just overall seem to click and I find him naturally very easy to be around.

          So just overall, things are muuuuch simpler and more refreshing with this guy. I would say I’m a convert to the “simpler is better” way of dating 🙂

      2. 1.1.2
        Yet Another Guy

        @Sabrina

        I find that there are LOTS of guys looking for relationships and are good guys… but such little chemistry!!

        I know that women are more selective than men when it comes to looks, but why do you find chemistry to be so elusive?  There is chemistry and then there is OMG chemistry.  Do you need OMG chemistry?  I think that a lot of guys do not know how to do the things that spark chemistry.  Trust me, there are things that a man can do that spark chemistry just as there are things that a woman can do that spark chemistry because chemistry has emotional, intellectual, and physical components.

        1. Marika

          YAG said:

          “I know that women are more selective than men when it comes to looks, but why do you find chemistry to be so elusive?”

          I feel like we’ve talked about this a lot.. but while chemistry and looks are related, they are not the same thing. You can have off the charts chemistry with someone who isn’t particularly or conventionally attractive, and vice versa.

          Also, I know women are more likely to have long lists of superficial things they want in a man – if you ask them, if you put them on a dating site etc – but in reality, it’s rare I see couples where there is a huge disparity in looks, and certainly in my experience if a member of the couple is better looking, it tends to be the woman. Women will prioritise other things over looks, whereas…not that men make lists, but if they did, I think it would most likely say one thing: “hot” 😉

          I personally don’t put much stock in that OKCupid or other similar studies with very small sample sizes and suspect scientific rigour.

        2. Clare

          YAG,

          Chemistry might not be all that elusive, but the simple fact of the matter is that you won’t have it with everyone or even a significant proportion of people, regardless of looks. Chemistry has as much (or very likely even more) to do with your rapport with someone, how well the two of you click and “vibe” with each other. Someone can be good looking and even a wonderful person, but the two of you could be on completely different planets.

          As a woman, with online dating, you are exposed to more guys. You go on far more dates than you ever would without it (if you are taking it semi-seriously). That is, of necessity, going to bring you into contact with more men whom you may like and respect as people, but with whom you have no desire to pursue a romantic connection.

          Of course you are completely right that many guys do not know what to do to spark chemistry (and I’m sure it works the other way too – but since I date men, I’ll keep my comments to what I have observed). As I previously noted, a large part of chemistry is a feeling of rapport and understanding, like the other person “gets” you. Far too many guys spend most of the night talking about themselves and their achievements or what they think makes them funny or interesting, thinking this will impress the woman, when most of the time, she couldn’t care less about that stuff. She wants to feel a connection.

    2. 1.2
      Mike

      Well, it does seem that this post and the responses to it, do a pretty good job encapsulating the debate about how tough dating is nowadays and which gender makes it so. The good thing is that women here are getting perspective from the other side.

      Online Dating looks pretty tough from our side as well. Not just in getting a first date, but in getting the *second* date. It feels that women tend to have unrealistic expectations and can be quick to write guys off. My experience has been that we generally have the first 20 minutes of the date to spark ‘the chemistry thing’ with someone who is basically a complete stranger. Otherwise that is basically it, she will finish the conversation but after that she is never to be heard from again.

      I read on here that many women complain about men’s boring online dating profiles when in fact theirs are often just as plain. On that note, I would ask women who complain about the boring guys they keep meeting online–what are you doing to help the conversation along here? What are you giving him to work with? Dating’s challenges are NOT all about so many of our gender being lame.

       

       

      1. 1.2.1
        Clare

        Mike,

        Please don’t take this response as critical or judgmental, because it is not meant in that spirit.

        However, when there is no chemistry or “spark” on a date, it is no one’s fault – neither man nor woman’s. Seeing it as a burden and as one person’s responsibility to ignite and “make happen” in my mind misses the entire point of it. Again, please don’t take this the wrong way, but the entire thrust of your post is that you feel you need to *work hard* to create chemistry or a spark with a woman. I’ve met many men who seem to feel this way, and in itself it is off-putting.

        Not that I am unsympathetic – I am well aware of how high the stakes are in dating. Everyone wants to find love, and no one wants to be rejected or have their self-esteem take a knock. We all want to feel desirable and for dates to go well. But putting too much pressure on yourself to create a spark actually works against you. It comes across to your date. I imagine it’s similar to how guys feel when a woman becomes a bit needy or pushes for the relationship to progress.

        Read a couple of books or listen to some talks by people who know how to teach the art of conversation and charisma, and one thing will become clear – it should be fun and enjoyable. It should feel natural. It shouldn’t feel like “work.” The people who are genuinely able to create chemistry and a spark are people who *enjoy* flirting. They are able to make you feel like the most important person in the room because they genuinely enjoy putting people at ease, making them feel relaxed and getting you to like them. People who are good at seduction enjoy this and want people to like them.

        I can assure you that I have never once heard a person who was genuinely charming and charismatic complain about the effort they had to put in to be so.

        So how do you do that? How do you create chemistry? Ask the other person questions about themselves. Lots of questions. Listen attentively. Laugh at their jokes. Flirt with them. Make them feel interesting, funny, sexy and charming, and I guarantee *you* will appear interesting, funny, sexy and charming. Find a reason to touch them unobtrusively, and enjoy doing so. Be confident. I’ve watched people who are natural flirts and this is what they do.

        My point is, Mike, enjoy flirting, learn the art of conversation and have fun with it, and you will no longer care who is putting effort into creating the spark. You will be desirable enough that you will be able to choose whom *you* want to have a second date with.

        1. Mike

          Clare, thanks for the response. All good bits of advice. My point of my post was not to complain about the other gender (although I can see how it may have come across that way), just to give a perspective from the male side of things.

          In many (not all)  instances I think our gender is less picky. Does she look like her pictures? Does she have good manners? Does she seem to have her life more or less together? Did the conversation have some flow to it? Good enough for a second date as far as I am concerned!

          This how I see it: A first meet of an OLD site is an artificial environment, and there are many great guys who would be great in relationships, but we hardly have the gift of charm. I mean, we (hopefully)  know enough to ask questions of you and draw you out. But being able to harness and feel this ‘energy’ thing that women talk about? That often seems to be beyond the ken of our rational brains. As for myself, I am more comfortable with facts and numbers than I am drawing a stranger out. I am an engineer!

          Attraction is definitely important. Everyone should go for what they want, and it is not on you to  pick “fairly”. But I do think our perspective can be helpful to women too.

           

           

        2. Clare

          Mike,

          “In many (not all)  instances I think our gender is less picky.”

          I think many women would beg to differ with this statement! If you dated men instead of women, you would be more attuned to the many ways in which men disqualify women unfairly 🙂

          “A first meet of an OLD site is an artificial environment, and there are many great guys who would be great in relationships, but we hardly have the gift of charm.”

          Agreed. I know and love many such men. But luckily, charm is not a gift and can be learned and practiced by almost anyone, like conversation. That was the point of my post 🙂 And I think it behooves anyone who wants to be more successful in dating to stretch and develop themselves in this way.

          “As for myself, I am more comfortable with facts and numbers than I am drawing a stranger out. I am an engineer!”

          Again, I sympathise. I really do. Personally, I am a really logical person and I particularly appreciate this side of men, and have been drawn myself to many engineers in the past. But human relationships are not all about facts and figures, as I’m sure you know, so once again, it comes to down to stretching oneself in this way… To be successful in relationships, one needs to be able to sense the emotions and energy of one’s partner to some extent. I know it’s not something many men are naturally good at, nor do they need to be experts at it, but it’s simply about being more human and vulnerable, I guess.

          “But I do think our perspective can be helpful to women too.”

          No doubt. I am fascinated by the male perspective and continue to try to understand it. I also like to try to open men’s eyes, if I can, a little more to other ways of seeing things.

        3. Marika

          Hehe Clare, one of these days I may disagree with something you’ve said, but it hasn’t happened yet! 🙂

          Mike, I want to acknowledge that you’ve expressed your points clearly and without much blame or negativity, especially your last comment, which came through after I wrote my previous one. You just seem genuinely frustrated – but I wanted to assure you: I’ve been there. When I first started online dating (and was far from skilled at dating, especially first dates), this ‘instant chemistry’ requirement of some people was an eye opener for me.

          It’s not until I’ve had some long discussions on here that I’ve come to understand that for some people, chemistry/spark has to be there from the start (a few minutes or seconds, apparently) & doesn’t ever grow after getting to know the person. Prior to that understanding I assumed that everyone felt first dates could be at least somewhat awkward and people need time to get comfortable with a stranger.

          I don’t like it, it’s not for me and feels very pressuring from the start, but that’s how it is. I wish it was only women!

        4. Mike

          Thanks @Marika and @Clare, for your responses. Maybe it is indeed as you said, more about the individual.

          And I have been going through a bit of a cold streak–definitely frustrating indeed! Thanks for the kind words, both of you.

      2. 1.2.2
        Mike

        Hi Clare, I am really responding to your last post not this one, even though that may be where this post will land on the thread.

        Men do indeed tend to be much pickier about looks than women are. And to many women this seems “unfair”–and I absolutely can see how a woman could feel this way. What do looks have to do with loyalty and other qualities you need in a long-term partner. And besides, don’t looks fade with time anyway. And speaking of “looks” oftentimes the guys who are the pickiest aren’t eye-candy themselves!

        Once the two of you are face-to-face on a date and it is established you both like each other’s physical appearance though, then women, in my experience, are the pickier gender when it comes to deciding whether they want to see the guy again for a second date. You seem to be the ones who are much more attuned to the ‘energy ‘, ‘connection’, ‘chemistry’ ect between the two of you. Whereas our gender are more or less just hoping you like us and that you aren’t a bunny-boiler. 🙂

        Now, we can try to say that this is silly and that you really can’t judge someone’s suitability by how they handle a first date with a stranger off the internet. But women are still going to keep going by the chemistry they feel even on a first meet. We can also say that it is silly that men put so much stock into looks and that looks hardly matter that much in the long-term either. But just the same men are going to keep going by looks anyway.  It is what it is!

      3. 1.2.3
        Marika

        Hi Mike

        You may be surprised by how many men mention ‘chemistry’, ‘spark’ etc. on dates, after dates and even in their online profiles.

        IME you are attributing to gender what would be better attributed to personality. I personally don’t expect or need instant chemistry from the start and know that a first date is just a brief snapshot of a person and can be affected by nerves etc. A first date would have to be absolutely awful for me not to accept a second date. My feeling is that people reveal themselves over time and chemistry can be misleading or fleeting. I’m often quite focused on how I’m coming across on a first date – rather than judging the other person.

        But through my dating journey and reading this blog, I’ve come to learn that some people know (or at least claim to know) whether there’s any future to a relationship within minutes of meeting someone. I say ‘people’ as this is not gender specific.

        Like Clare said (unless you are bi), you only know how women act on dates and in dating, you have no experience with men. So you assume this is about women – when really it is just how some people see things.

        1. Clare

          Mike,

          Marika is absolutely correct. It is a “people” thing, and a “personality” thing, and not a gender thing.

          I have a girl friend who is about the least picky person you could wish for on dates. Pretty much as long as the guy is willing to date her, she is game.

          Likewise, I have received a text message the next morning from a guy (who behaved really rather badly on our date, I thought!) after a second date saying that he “did not feel the chemistry.”

          Don’t make the mistake of stereotyping or of extrapolating your feelings to the entirety of your gender. I see it all the time on this blog – the attempts to claim that one gender have it harder than the other in some way or other. In my opinion, 90% of it comes down to the individual. You mention the “bunny boiler” thing – and I often find this a funny stereotype. It is behaviour most often attributed to women (I guess because of Glenn Close in the movie), but I can assure you that when I like a guy and start dating him, I am equally hoping that he doesn’t start exhibiting this behaviour (based on my significant experience with emotionally unstable men). It really just depends on which side of the spectrum you are coming from, but it’s important to remember that whatever experiences you are having, you can be absolutely sure that someone of the other gender is experiencing the same thing,

  2. 2
    SparklingEmerald

    Hi Jessica – I don’t know how old you are, but once you are out of college, the opportunities to congregate with large groups of available people dwindles, and online dating is an effective way to meet more people than you would otherwise meet.

    Clare did an excellent job of describing the frustrations of online dating above.   I experienced all of the above frustrations,  with online dating, until . . . I met my husband.  That was almost 4 years ago, and we have been married now for a little over a year and a half.  He may not be perfect, but he’s a perfect match for me.

    My first mistake was attempting to online date when I was separated, but not legally divorced.  The very few men who contacted me with my status as “separated” were mostly players.  Once I could honestly change my status to “divorced”, I got more responses, but the quality wasn’t quite there.  I bought one of Evan’s book and improved my profile using his techniques.  BOY !  did that make a difference.  The QUALITY of men contacting me greatly improved after I re-vamped my vanilla profile. Many men complimented my profile as “the best ” they had seen.   Almost one year to the day after my divorce became legally official, I went on a “coffee date” that morphed into an all day date, that included a walk, wine and appetizers and a movie.  About 2 years later we got married, and I couldn’t be happier.   I was actually only active in online dating for 6 months of that year after my divorce.  (I took a long “guy-a-tus” from match when I reported a string of rapey,  sexually aggressive e-mails, and the same guy was still in their data base a month after I reported him)  So I would say that using Evan’s profile tips, I found my dream boat after 6 months.  And I was in my late 50’s !

    I know several couples who met online.  Hang in there. The frustrating flakers,  “beige dates”,  awkward dates,  the occasional horn dog, the let downs and the rejection are all worth it, when you finally meet the one.

     

     

     

    1. 2.1
      Henriette

      @SE: always a joy when I (rarely) check in here only to discover a comment from you. I remember when you felt like Faded Jade, and it’s heartening to read of your happy, post-wedding life.  Please keep visiting this site and reminding us of your journey; many of us can really use the encouragement.  ox

    2. 2.2
      Clare

      SE,

      I too remember your posts from a few years ago, and it’s so wonderful to read about how things fell into place for you. Really refreshing and encouraging.

      Your story embodies pretty much exactly what I was trying to say: it all doesn’t seem worth it, until the day it is.

      My best friend from about 5 or 6 years ago was one of the most despondent people about her love life that I had ever met. She was a couple years older than me, so mid-30s, and never been married. She was a great catch – pretty, great body, together and down-to-earth, funny and lots of fun, independent. Everyone who met her loved her. And she had partied and dated like crazy. Slept with over 50 guys, had dates, relationships, and a string of jerks and unrequited love experiences under her belt. She was so depressed about it all and ready to give up.

      And then, she met Kevin on Zoosk, and her whole world changed overnight. They are married now and have just had a baby.

      It only takes one great person to make it all worthwhile 🙂

    3. 2.3
      SparklingEmerald

      Awwww, thanks Henriette and Clare.  Sometimes I think I should stop posting here, since I am no longer dating, but then I read posts like these and  . . .

      Clare, you are right, online dating sucks, until . . . it doesn’t !

  3. 3
    Kath

    It’s also luck and timing. I’ve known couples who met and married within months of meeting online. And I know others who have been online off and on for several years. Watch EMK’s TEDTalk, No More Bad Dates; lots of great insights regarding online dating.

    Online or offline, you tend to attract who/what you are. Doing any necessary inner work first is key, so you don’t keep attracting or even settling for the same person who isn’t right for you, over and over again.

  4. 4
    Yet Another Guy

    My problem with online dating is that people tend to become more selective over time.  I know that I have become significantly more selective with time.  It is kind of like a disease that requires one to step away from online dating for a period of time in order to get a grip on reality.  I started out dating women that I would not consider dating today. However, with practice and a little fine tuning of my profile, the quality my dates progressively increased.  That is when bigger, better deal syndrome (BBDS) entered the equation.   When a man is suffering form BBDS, no woman is going to be good enough to make the cut, at least not for long.

    1. 4.1
      Yet Another Guy

      *from BBDS

  5. 5
    Seth

    As a guy with online dating, I have pretty much given up on those sites/apps.
    The women can be just as bad or rude.  And I always try and message women respectfully and I never send dick or half naked pictures.  I actually want to get to know the person.
    But they won’t respond or they won’t follow up.  Was talking with one woman and we had a good conversation, and I said I would like to meet up if she would and she said yes she would.  So I said ok, let me know what your schedule looks like and we can set something up.
    She responded with “I will”
    Never heard from her again.

    1. 5.1
      Marika

      Seth

      I sympathise, that stuff happens a lot in online dating. It’s not personal, she probably just met up with another guy she’d been messaging, or things progressed further and she got distracted. Or who knows? She could have gotten sick or had some other personal issue arise.

      Evan’s finding the one online gives great tips for first messages, usernames etc, all of which help you stand out in your profile. But people disappearing or being indirect is pretty common online.

    2. 5.2
      Clare

      Seth, I sympathise. I’ve had those experiences. Plenty of them.

      I’m not going to tell you what to do or that you’re wrong for wanting to give up on online dating, but I think the fact that everyone has these sorts of experiences with online dating should be encouraging, not discouraging. It means it’s very likely not personal.

      It’s a very good idea to grow a thick skin in online dating. I say that as a gentle, sensitive, polite type, but I have just learned to be very thick-skinned in online dating. That’s not to say that there won’t be disappointments; but you just don’t take them personally. I heard something very useful which really helped me put this in perspective: In the very early stages of dating, like before you’ve met or when you’ve gone on one or two dates, you can’t take people’s flakiness personally or let it upset you. This person doesn’t know you yet, doesn’t know your amazing qualities or how happy you could potentially make them. So essentially, they’re not rejecting you; most likely they are just making a practical decision based on what’s best for them at that moment. Honestly, in the beginning stages when we are just texting, I have trained myself to put them out of my mind the moment I send my text and until I hear from them again.

      It’s best not to get too emotionally invested in the first 3 months of dating anyway. Easier said than done, I know, but if you can possibly keep your feelings and expectations in check in the beginning, it will serve you well. In the beginning, I honestly just like to think of it as fun and a way to meet people, and if things don’t pan out, there are plenty more fish in the sea.

      I have also just started to force myself to take things slower. Let the person unfold over time. I feel like this is the best way to build a connection and protect yourself.

      Either way, I’m sorry you’re feeling despondent about online dating, but remember: you’re not alone. And people are getting married to people they met online all the time.

      1. 5.2.1
        Seth

        @Clare and @Marika

        Thank you both for the input.  I may eventually come back to the apps and try again but for now, I don’t much care.
        I kinda want my next time being where I talk and meet someone in person and see if I can do anything there.
        Doing something like that would really take me out of my comfort zone and would make me face my fear of rejection.
        I think that is one big reason I don’t do it…..is my fear of rejection.  I absolutely hate it.
        And I need to confront it because I honestly (and objectively) do think I bring a good package to the table (at this point in my life), I guess “High Value” is what they call it…..
        And I want to meet someone who is also “High Value” as well.
        Now I just need to get out and socialize more. LOL

    3. 5.3
      P is for _

      Hi Seth, I hope you will take this as constructive. But next time don’t be so passive and assume she will say yes. Next time say “how about we do this on this day at this time,” and even if she is busy she can offer another day/time. If she doesn’t then she wasn’t really interested.

      1. 5.3.1
        Seth

        Yeah I can give that a try….guess it can’t hurt.

  6. 6
    JDM

    There is a new research paper about online dating that says that people target others who are “Out of there league”, and 25% more attractive than themselves.

    http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/8/eaap9815

    No new information here, Women’s desirability peaks at 18 and men’s at 50. Looks and youth for women and that money thing for men.

    I in my 50’s, a high earning professional, but short and have given up on online dating and dating in general. I live in Seattle, where there are 2 times more single men than women, according to this article in KOMO news. But if you are a single woman and want a man, Seattle is your city. But he will be a smart high earning guy, who won’t be the masculine bad boy that most women really want.

    https://komonews.com/news/local/online-dating-study-measures-whos-out-of-your-league-in-seattle

    1. 6.1
      ezamuzed

      I had no problems as a man dating in Seattle for the last 4 years. Although I am in my 4os and tall. Much of that time I was dating multiple woman at once in non committed sexual relationships.  Then I met a woman who I liked so much I only wanted her. She has been my girlfriend for about 6 months now.

      Many woman in Seattle complain that it is hard to date because there is a dearth of quality men.

    2. 6.2
      Alan

      If this is true, we would expect lots of 18 year old girls to be dating (or want to date) 50 year old men.  Since you are in your 50s, why aren’t all of the 18 year old ladies chasing you?  I think your statistic was developed by 50 year old pedos.

      The best explanation is that attractiveness in women does not peak at 18 (except for pedos on “To Catch a Predator”) and 50 for men (unless you have some great genes and fitness regimen).   In fact, the average age difference in marriage is only two years, and there is a growing number of older women who date younger men.  There is also, on average, a lot more younger men than younger women (birth rates of 106 males per 100 females).  There is an increase in women who chose to remain single.  There is also an increase in women who claim to be bisexual or lesbian who only date other women.  Thus the dating pool for men is smaller than they are led to believe.

      I suspect the dearth of women is the reason behind MRA and MGTOW movements.

      1. 6.2.1
        Scooter

        Why are you attacking JDM? He is clearly stating that women are NOT coming after him, in Seattle.

        Your rant concerning “pedo’s” is also unrelated.  Why are you bringing up that angle?

        And based on the tone of your post.. are you sure you spelled your name correctly? Should it be, “Alana”?

      2. 6.2.2
        Yet Another Guy

        @Alan

        In fact, the average age difference in marriage is only two years

        Actually, the average age gap is two to three years when people are in their 20s and increases up to seven years after age 40.  Additionally, the single male to single female ratio depends on demographic and location.  Where I live, single college-educated women between age 46 and age 64 outnumber single college-educated men in the same cohort by 2 to 1.  My experience on dating sites bears this one out.  I have zero difficulty obtaining dates on the dating sites.  The map on the page linked below gets redder with age.

        labs.time.com/story/see-the-ratio-of-single-men-to-women-where-you-live/

      3. 6.2.3
        Karl R

        Alan said:

        “There is also, on average, a lot more younger men than younger women (birth rates of 106 males per 100 females).”

        That’s at birth.  In the 20-24 age range, the ratio is 102 to 100.  In the 30-34 age range, the ratio is 99 to 100.  That’s according to the 2010 U.S. census.

         

        Alan said:

        “There is an increase in women who chose to remain single.  There is also an increase in women who claim to be bisexual or lesbian who only date other women.”

        Largely balanced out by the men who are gay or bisexual.  Last time I did some research into this, gay men outnumbered lesbians.  Bisexual women outnumbered bisexual men.  But wide variation in results led me to believe that the studies aren’t yet reliable.

         

        Alan said:

        “Thus the dating pool for men is smaller than they are led to believe.  I suspect the dearth of women is the reason behind MRA and MGTOW movements.”

        Based on the little bit of misogynistic crap of theirs that I was actually able to stomach reading, they seem to expect a ratio of several smoking-hot women to every one of them.  Not only is that ratio unlikely to happen, but their attitude makes them the last people on the planet most women would voluntarily date.

        1. Marika

          Good to see you back around these parts, Karl R. Don’t be a stranger.

    3. 6.3
      AdaGrace

      The researchers weren’t assessing the *quality* of messages being sent, right?  🙂

       

      I’m a woman in Seattle, and weirdly, my profile has started getting a lot of contact from men in my preferred demographic (5’6”-5’11”, introverted but articulate, techie/scientist men within 4 years of my age) since I turned 50 six weeks ago.  The followthrough has been phenomenal, most of the phone calls and dates between good and awesome.  I wasn’t getting anywhere near this much attention at 49… or nearly as high-quality attention in my early 20s (East Coast), or 30s (California).  Seattle is indeed *weird.*

       

      And yeah, the gender ratio here sucks for men.  A much younger male colleague (alpha/relationship-oriented/intelligent/kind/fit/high EQ) who grew up near my own East Coast hometown is in the process of arranging to work remotely so he can take advantage of the gender ratio/less passive-aggressive culture in another location with a Seattle tech industry income.  I’m sad to see one of the precious few direct communicators I know leave town, but respect and admire him for taking action rather than complaining incessantly or giving up.

      1. 6.3.1
        Scooter

        You have a height requirement, narrow age requirement, and an income requirement (indirectly ascertained from your description).

        Wow.. you must be a special catch!

        1. AdaGrace

          You have a height requirement, narrow age requirement, and an income requirement (indirectly ascertained from your description).

          I’m actually more open than that — my height or taller, +/- 7 years, any profession, “can support himself”, anywhere on the introvert-extrovert scale.  However, I tend to feel most comfortable with men who are average-ish to somewhat below average in height.  Men who are more than about 4 years different in age don’t feel like they connect with me, and/or vice versa (when I’ve tried speed dating where exact age is unknown, the mutual matches tend to be +/- 4 years).  And, men who are analytical often end up becoming scientists or engineers — I tend not to enjoy men who aren’t analytical, and they REALLY don’t seem to enjoy me.  So yes, of course I’m enthusiastic about being approached by men who are *more likely* to be a good mutual match for me.  But my recent dates have ALSO included a professional petsitter who seemed interesting, a VERY analytical nurse, and an incredibly articulate guy who does receiving in a warehouse — one of whom is 5’4″ himself.  Chances are decent that (as a software engineer myself) I’ll end up outearning the partner I end up with, possibly by quite a lot, and I’m ok with that as long as he is.

          Wow.. you must be a special catch!

          I’m attractive, fit, and reasonably well-preserved.  IMO not outstandingly so, but probably “attractive enough” for most men willing to date women my age, especially in a town where the gender ratio is so skewed.  I’m also a supportive, tolerant partner with a sense of humor and a high libido, so some men do indeed consider me a special catch, thanks 🙂

      2. 6.3.2
        ezamuzed

        @AdaGrace You are definitely in the right city for what you are looking for (and from the name Ada+Grace I assume you are a programmer too) . I suppose the only thing that might be hard to find is a “direct communicator”.

        1. AdaGrace

          @ezamuzed: Good guess, I am indeed a software engineer 🙂

          As far as “direct communication” goes, I seem to do better with men who aren’t from here, correct — they strike me as less avoidant 🙂  For instance, I had a great time with a tech industry guy from upstate NY Friday evening and apparently the feeling’s mutual since he’s already asked me on a second date.  Good, fluent conversation where it didn’t feel as if anyone was holding back their real opinion, was a significant part of why the evening worked so well for me.

  7. 7
    Noone45

    Everyone complains about online dating and here we all are. It works fine for what I use it for – NSA encounter three times a year, free dinner once a month. (Don’t lecture me, I get tested 4 times a year make them wrap up). Seems to work fine for the normal people I know. Methinks some people just like to whine. If you want easy dating, go back to the arranged marriage system. I feel I’m worth at least nine cows.

    1. 7.1
      No Name To Give

      I’m here for the comments. Thank you for not disappointing me.

      1. 7.1.1
        Irrelevant

        Excellent. I am here for the comments of the comments!

  8. 8
    SparklingEmerald

    NOONE45 said “Everyone complains about online dating and here we all are. It works fine for what I use it for – NSA encounter three times a year, free dinner once a month.

    Any woman can get occasional NSA encounters and even free dinners, online or offline.    For women who want a substantial love partnership or marriage, dating online or offline CAN be frustrating.  This is a blog for women who want to fall in love, and here you are.

    If you don’t want to be lectured, perhaps you should not come to a blog for love/marriage oriented women, and lecture them.

    1. 8.1
      Noone45

      When did I complain about being lectured?

      1. 8.1.1
        SparklingEmerald

        I didn’t say you were “complaining” about being lectured, I told you not to lecture others if you don’t want to be lectured.

        That was in response the part of your lecture to us where you said in part, “Don’t lecture me”.

        And I would like to add, that I am sorry that you think so low of your looks.  I have no idea what you really look like, but I know of women who are AVERAGE looking (not ugly) who really think they are ugly.  Of course this belief puts a sour demeanor on their face which brings their looks down.  Maybe so many average women believe they are ugly, because the media is always showing us model looking women, and that level of beauty becomes our baseline of what is average, and average falls into the “ugly” category. Not sure if you are in the “average girl who thinks she’s ugly” category or not, but if so, I hope you can look in the mirror and find something to admire and raise your self esteem.  Not to find a romantic partner, but to feel better about yourself.

        1. Noone45

          “That was in response the part of your lecture to us where you said in part, “Don’t lecture me””

          It was an obvious reference to my line about casual sex. Nothing I said was a lecture. The last line about cows should have clued you into my statement being a joke about the centuries-old quest to find a mate.

          “And I would like to add, that I am sorry that you think so low of your looks. ”

          Let’s not BS each other.

  9. 9
    Shaukat

     NSA encounter three times a year, free dinner once a month.

    Lol, didn’t you describe yourself as heinously unattractive? (your words I believe). This just confirms what YAG and others are always saying here, virtually any woman can get easy sex with men above her in looks because of all the guys dating down on these apps.

    You’re right, I’m not sure why so many ladies complain about this medium, it’s the perfect time for them to “game” the system;)

    1. 9.1
      Emily, the original

      Shaukat,

      You’re right, I’m not sure why so many ladies complain about this medium, it’s the perfect time for them to “game” the system;)

      That’s the life of an emancipated woman. A free dinner and NSA sex always with the men of her dreams at least once a month. Damn, it feels good to be a gangster.

      1. 9.1.1
        shaukat

        @Emily,

        Lol, I was 75% trolling with the last part of my comment. However, I do think it’s telling that a self-proclaimed 2/10 woman who is also a single parent can jump on one of these online services and, at the very least, get a free dinner once a month.

        I can only imagine what would happen to her male counterpart (2/10) who might try venturing into those waters. He’d likely send out thousands of messages and then put a gun to his head.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @shaukat

          I can only imagine what would happen to her male counterpart (2/10) who might try venturing into those waters. He’d likely send out thousands of messages and then put a gun to his head.

          There is no such thing as a female incel.  Even the most unattractive woman can get laid by a more attractive man.   Granted, the guy will not commit.  However,  Noone45 stated that she was looking for NSA sex, so lack of commitment potential does not factor into the equation.  I personally no longer date down for NSA sex because I hate wearing a condom (I am vasectomy safe on the reproduction side).  I would rather set the table for one.  🙂

        2. Emily, the original

          Shaukat,

          Lol, I was 75% trolling with the last part of my comment.

          I figured you were joking. So was I.

          However, I do think it’s telling that a self-proclaimed 2/10 woman who is also a single parent can jump on one of these online services and, at the very least, get a free dinner once a month.

          BUT AS MANY FEMALE POSTERS HAVE WRITTEN ON PREVIOUS POSTS (and you’re a longtime poster)…  We’d rather stick needles in our eyes than go to dinner with someone we’re not interested in just for a free meal. I don’t know any woman who dates to get free meals, with the exception of Noone45. I mean, if all you want is NSA, why bother making bs conversation at an awkward meal? You’re not trying to get to know each other. Go right to the NSA.

        3. Nissa

          Emily, I second your ‘needle-in-the-eye’ comment. No dinner is worth my time if I’m not really interested.

      2. 9.1.2
        Clare

        Emily,

        “A free dinner and NSA sex always with the men of her dreams at least once a month. Damn, it feels good to be a gangster.”

        Yeah, sounds like a fulfilling life.

        Kudos on the Office Space reference, by the way!

        1. Emily, the original

          Clare,

          “A free dinner and NSA sex always with the men of her dreams at least once a month.”

          Well, if this was an option for women, I don’t think monogamy would be as appealing. Or you’d at least ride that train for a while and get it out of your system.

          Kudos on the Office Space reference, by the way!

          Thanks for getting it!   🙂

      3. 9.1.3
        Gab

        @Emily

        I just sprayed my coffee laughing. With wit like that I’d date you for sure 😊

        1. Marika

          Me too!

          Emily, if it’s a choice between a boring date and your eye needle sticking party…you know I’m knocking at your door 😉😉

          (Is it byo needle?)

        2. Emily, the original

          Hi Marika,
          Emily, if it’s a choice between a boring date and your eye needle sticking party…you know I’m knocking at your door 😉😉
          I don’t know where men are getting the idea women are trying to scam them out of a free dinner. There may be women who do that, but I don’t know any.
          (Is it byo needle?)
          No. It’s BYOV. Bring your own vodka. I’ll supply the needles. 🙂

        3. Emily, the original

          Gab,

          With wit like that I’d date you for sure 😊

          That’s the best offer I’ve had in a long time. 🙂

        4. Marika

          Can I swap wine for vodka? 😃

          Emily unfortunately they get the idea from women they date…and this blog. Whenever a woman acts like a man should pay, no questions asked..and even enjoy the ‘privilege’, it makes me wince. We’re not all like that! But the women (and men) with the bonehead expectations of the opposite sex are unfortunately the loudest and most memorable.

        5. Emily, the original

          Marika,
          Can I swap wine for vodka? 😃
          NO! You come to play or you don’t play at all!  🙂
          Whenever a woman acts like a man should pay, no questions asked..and even enjoy the ‘privilege’, it makes me wince. We’re not all like that! 
          Me, too. A date is a chance to see if you like each other. Both people are on equal footing. No has the “privilege” of being with the other.

      4. 9.1.4
        Shaukat

        “I don’t know where men are getting the idea women are trying to scam them out of a free dinner.”

        I was responding to a poster who basically insinuated that she was doing just that. You’re right though, the majority of women aren’t trying to scam their dates–however, many still go on dates thinking “meh, I’ll give it a shot,” and the end result for the guy is essentially the same. Hence, I don’t know why these guys are buying her dinner on the first date.

        1. Emily, the original

          Shaukat,

          however, many still go on dates thinking “meh, I’ll give it a shot,” and the end result for the guy is essentially the same.

          We’re discussed this topic before on this blog as well. I would personally not accept dates where “meh” was anywhere in the vocabulary — my reaction should be at least a “he’s fairly cute, I’d like to see where this goes” — but some women can grow attraction, and if you want those women to say no to a date if they aren’t feeling it immediately, you may be taking women out of the running who could like you in the future. An immediate, “hell, yes!” response is rare. Don’t men date the same way? Surely not every woman you ask out is someone who floors you or you’d go on about 1 date a year.  

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily

          Don’t men date the same way? Surely not every woman you ask out is someone who floors you or you’d go on about 1 date a year. 

          No, men do not date the same way because they are doing the pursuing, planning, and paying.  That is a lot of effort for a “meh” impression of a woman.  A guy knows that he either wants to date a woman or at least have sex with her before he asks.   The tables do get turned when a woman is the pursuer instead of the pursued, especially if she is planning and paying.  In that case, a woman can get a taste of the medicine she serves to guys who ask her out, but for whom she has lukewarm interest.  That is why most women hate being the pursuer. The pursuer is usually always interested whereas the pursued can be lukewarm or even indifferent about the encounter.

      5. 9.1.5
        Marika

        Tequila??

    2. 9.2
      Noone45

      And what of it? Should I just go lock myself up and wither away because people think I’m ugly? Funny that most of the new comments are jumping on me for daring to enjoy myself. I have no shot at a serious,  loving relationship.  I’m not hurting anyone, so I’m not sure why so many of you are attacking me. I’m living the hand I was dealt.

      1. 9.2.1
        Marika

        I don’t see anyone attacking you, Noone45. Shaukat is making the point that it’s a lot harder for a man to go online and get easy sex and Sparkling is making the point that this blog is designed for people who want relationships.

        Do as you wish, but if you post on here you get both negative and positive feedback. That’s just how it works.

        I actually think the ‘free meals’ bit is something you’ll likely get pushback on. Who wants to buy a stranger you’ll never see again a free meal? Do you let them know you’re just in it for a free meal?

        1. Noone45

          “Shaukat is making the point that it’s a lot harder for a man to go online and get easy sex”

          Yea, because most men are deluded enough to think they can shoot above their pay grade. It doesn’t work like that. ugly men don’t want to sleep with ugly women. Therein lies their problem. Despite what the above commenter thinks, I don’t shoot above my pay grade.

          “Sparkling is making the point that this blog is designed for people who want relationships.”

          And? I made no statement on that issue. I merely made a snide remark about people complaining about OLD. Online dating works. Most of the women I know who are in a relationship met their boyfriend or husband using OLD. I stated it worked for normal people in my post. YAG is very correct about what the problem is for many people using OLD. OLD can give many people unrealistic expectations. Either way, the whining about this subject is nothing new. People whined about singles bars, speed dating, square dance, courting, whatever. From time immemorial, people have complained about the methods people use to get a mate. Hell, I remember reading Henry VIII’s bitching about how portraits were fooling him into thinking ugly girls were hot. Nothing here is new.

          “Do you let them know you’re just in it for a free meal?”

          Yep, I’m very clear that I’m a single mother to a disabled child and am not looking for anything serious. I also make it clear I’m not sleeping with them. I don’t go in expecting a guy to pay, but they always do. I always offer to split the check and they always turn me down. I do get to hear all about their woes, so perhaps I’m just an underpaid therapist.

      2. 9.2.2
        shaukat

        Yea, because most men are deluded enough to think they can shoot above their pay grade. It doesn’t work like that. ugly men don’t want to sleep with ugly women. Therein lies their problem. Despite what the above commenter thinks, I don’t shoot above my pay grade.

        Your two statements contradict one another. Ugly men don’t want to sleep with ugly women, yet apparently you don’t shoot above your pay grade, hence you’re sleeping with unattractive men. So I guess unattractive men do want to sleep with unattractive women, or, more likely, the plethora of men looking for casual sex on dating platforms simply means that most women, even unattractive ones, can pick within reason (clearly, a 2 isn’t going to be hooking up with a 9, no matter how often men date down, as YAG says).

        I actually have no issue with what you’re doing in terms of NSA sex, my comment was mainly directed at your boast that you get a free dinner once a month, which imo was in bad taste. However you’ve now cleared that up. Actually, your last paragraph is pretty sad and simply demonstrates how desperate some men are. You make it clear that you’re not interested in dating them, that you won’t sleep with them, and yet they’re still willing to buy you dinner for the privilege of…talking to you and unloading their issues? Christ, some guys are in serious need of self-improvement.

        1. Sandra

          I don’t think buying dinner at a modest restaurant is that much of a stretch for many guys. If he does not cook, he would probably buy himself dinner anyway. What is a few extra dollars for some conversation if a guy is lonely?

        2. Tron Swanson

          shaukat,

          I agree completely. I’m so, so glad that I never dated. I can’t imagine paying to “talk” to a woman. On the contrary, a woman should have to pay me if she wants me to listen, because non-sexual conversations with women are boring and awful.

        3. No Name To Give

          Tron, are you married or an MGTOW? Because if listening to a woman is that terrible to you, you’re right not to date. Or get married.

        4. Yet Another Guy

          @Sandra

          I don’t think buying dinner at a modest restaurant is that much of a stretch for many guys.

          You think wrong.  I never do dinner on a first online date.  A woman has to pass the “I’d do her” test before I consider buying dinner, and a man does not know that until he meets a woman in person.  The only thing that is more painful than having to sit through dinner with a woman who posted non-representative photos and/or stretched the truth in areas on her profile is having to pay for it.

          If he does not cook, he would probably buy himself dinner anyway. What is a few extra dollars for some conversation if a guy is lonely?

          I do not know a single unattached man who does not know how to cook.  Every guy I know is at least accomplished on the grill because that is considered to be the man’s job where I live.

          Only guys who struggle to get dates buy dinner on a first online date.  That gesture makes these men fools because they are paying for women they cannot have nine times out of ten.  If woman is truly interested in a man, she will meet him for a walk in the park.  I started to do that very thing during the warm months this year.

        5. Tron Swanson

          NNTG,

          I’m happily MGTOW–and I’m also not a fan of talking to anyone, male or female. However, if I’m physically involved with a woman, I’m perfectly fine with listening to her. In that context, it’s merely a minor annoyance. But doing nothing but talking, or paying to talk…that’s just insanity, to me.

        6. SparklingEmerald

          YAG said “If woman is truly interested in a man, she will meet him for a walk in the park.”
          __________________________________________________
          BINGO ! Thank you YAG for saying this. I and other female posters have been suggesting this for initial meet and greets, but it falls on deaf ears and/or gets drowned out by the female posters bragging about using men as meal tickets and nothing more. Perhaps men will heed this advice coming from a male.

          A truly interested woman wants to get to know THE MAN, and would not balk at a walk along a scenic nature trail, or a free art gallery opening. If she balks, then you’ve weeded out a gold digger.

          Just like women have to pass your “I’d do her” test, men have to pass my “I potentially see a boyfriend” test (at which point, I would “do” him)

          I cringe when commenter claim to spend hundreds of dollars on a first date. This shows financial irresponsiblity and lack of imagination. This includes women who claim to spend hundreds of dollars to look good for a first meet and greet on new outfits and trips to the blow dry bar. Good grief, don’t you already own some nice outfits ? Don’t you know how to wash and dry your own hair to look presentable for a date ? Sheesh.

        7. Clare

          YAG & Sparkling Emerald,

          “If woman is truly interested in a man, she will meet him for a walk in the park.”

          YES. In fact, I really prefer this for a first date. The fact of the matter is, before you’ve met, you don’t really know whether you will like each other yet. Sitting down to a dinner is quite an investment for both parties, and a lot of pressure. A three course (or even two course) meal with drinks is a long time to make conversation with a stranger. If one or both of you is not feeling it, even worse.

          Also, on the man’s side, he feels pressured to pay when he may or may not be feeling it for the woman. On the woman’s side, if she is not really feeling it for the guy, she either feels pressured to pay for a date she didn’t really enjoy or she feels guilty for accepting a dinner when she doesn’t want to date the guy.

          It’s all too much for a first meeting. Best to meet for a drink (which is a few bucks), or a lovely free date such as a beach walk or art exhibition. The pressure is off and you can enjoy the experience for what it is – meeting a stranger for the first time.

          Oh, and I completely concur with SE about people who spend a fortune on a first date. It’s not a business deal or a once-in-a-lifetime TV audition. It’s just meeting someone.

        8. Yet Another Guy

          @SE

          “Just like women have to pass your “I’d do her” test, men have to pass my “I potentially see a boyfriend” test (at which point, I would “do” him)”

          When I was younger, the “I’d do her” test was all that a woman needed to pass. Sadly, today, a woman has to pass the “I’d do her” test and the “Is she sane?” test before I can consider getting naked with her. A man has to worry about a woman going Glenn Close on him these days.

        9. Clare

          YAG,

          “Sadly, today, a woman has to pass the “I’d do her” test and the “Is she sane?” test before I can consider getting naked with her. A man has to worry about a woman going Glenn Close on him these days.”

          I know this is not a “who has it worse” contest, but women have to worry about men going Glenn Close on them too, I can assure you. I have had two ex-boyfriends threaten suicide when I pulled away, multiple brushes with stalking behavior… and this is not even mentioning outbursts of rage and emotional meltdowns.

          It sure is a jungle out there.

        10. Nissa

          I’m also excited about the fact that YAG is hearing the ‘walk in the park’ idea. Even though I prefer never to pay for a date, I also want the man in question to only offer what he feels comfortable offering without resentment. I far prefer a free first date, as it really cuts down on the pressure for me – and hopefully for him.

  10. 10
    Marika

    I still don’t see where you get the idea that people are ‘attacking’ you, Noone45? Most of the comments were pretty mild, and your comments towards others (and life in general) tend to be far more negative & judgemental on this blog than people are towards you.

    In fact, I remember people trying to support & encourage you, and ask if maybe you weren’t selling yourself short – perhaps you do have more to offer than you think.

    But it’s far easier to play the victim.

    1. 10.1
      Clare

      Marika,

      People with chronic low self-esteem are among the most bitter out there. They take everything personally and see everything as an attack on themselves, and it all just feeds into the negative opinion they have of themselves. They have no desire or ability to help themselves because they don’t see a world outside of the prison they have created for themselves. It’s very sad really, and deserving of one’s compassion.

  11. 11
    No Name To Give

    She did say she’s mother to a disabled child. That probably leaves her with little energy to get a romantic relationship off the ground. It’s challenging enough to single parent children who aren’t disabled. And you can’t just let anyone into your life when you are a single parent, especially when you have a disabled child.

     

    I’ll cut Noone45 some slack. First, I think she just has a dry, acerbic wit. 2nd, I’ve seen more than once here women being told we over estimate our looks, our “smv” or what have you. She’s just calling herself as she sees it, not embellishing.

    1. 11.1
      Noone45

      Basically,  I got intelligence rather than looks. I’m also a very direct communicator,  which tends to not be the mode most women use. Being unattractive is not inherently terrible. I don’t get harrassed when I’m out, there are no expectations regarding my looks,  and people do tend to take me seriously at all times. Either way, not all stories have a happy ending and it’s ok to acknowledge that fact. Either way, most of the problems around here stem from unrealistic expectations.  That’s not something I suffer from.

    2. 11.2
      Marika

      No name

      I do have sympathy for both single parents and most definitely for those with children with special needs.

      What I don’t get is what kind of response we are ‘allowed’ to give her here. We can’t question anything she says or does, we can’t make suggestions, we can’t offer encouragement…it all gets taken the wrong way or argued against or turned back on the commenter. Even a ‘poor you’ type comment isn’t appreciated. So what’s left?

      1. 11.2.1
        Noone45

        “Poor you” comments are patronizing foolishness.  Frankly, most of these comments are laughing at me. I don’t particularly care as I said it publicly and that’s how these things go, but it says a hell of a lot more about most of then it does me.

        Not all problems are solvable. I don’t begrudge others for wanting love at all. I merely point out that many of you are the source of your problems.  Would you want to be around someone that makes others the butt of a joke? Give you bait and you guys run with it.

        Either way, one of the darker lessons of life if that one can do everything right and still come up a loser. That’s what I learned.  Some of you won’t learn that lesson until much later.

        1. Clare

          Noone45,

          Whom exactly are you referring to when you say “you”?

          Are you trying to suggest that the rest of the commenters here are all one homogenous group suffering from exactly the same kind of issues?

          I’m really baffled by your comments most of the time. They don’t seem to make any sense. You do realise that the commenters are of both genders, of all different ages, and come from different countries and cultures?

          And as for your quip about people learning “later” that they will come up a loser no matter how hard they try… God, how sad.

          I’m just sorry that you are presenting these as intelligent insights rather than the crushing negativity from which you personally seem to suffer.

        2. Noone45

          “Whom exactly are you referring to when you say “you”?” 

          It’s a generic you. People who read a lot tend to get what the generic “you” means. This is a fairly well know writing concept.

          “And as for your quip about people learning “later” that they will come up a loser no matter how hard they try…”

          That is not what I said. I’m going to assume at this point you have issues with reading comprehension, or are being intellectually dishonest, and will no longer respond.

           

        3. Clare

          “People who read a lot tend to get what the generic “you” means.”

          “I’m going to assume at this point you have issues with reading comprehension, or are being intellectually dishonest, and will no longer respond.”

          Issues with reading comprehension? I don’t know what the generic “you” means? I’m a writing tutor – that is my job. So I don’t think it’s that.

          Personal attacks are the last resorts of the intellectually dishonest.

          Much easier than addressing how crushingly negative all your posts sound.

      2. 11.2.2
        No Name To Give

        Who said you “can’t” do anything? You offered your perspective, I offered mine. My saying I’m cutting Noone45 some slack does not limit your ability to say anything.

        1. Marika

          I understand. My point is, how do you cut someone some slack when nothing you say to them gets taken well?

  12. 12
    Randy

    *Trying to change the subject*

    Volunteering is a great way to meet people. Personally I met my partner at a bar the old fashioned way…

     

     

    1. 12.1
      Lynx

      Such nice manners, Randy!

       

      I don’t have any problem with OLD, I get the math and how many more people you can be exposed to with dating apps (no double entendre intended by using the word, ‘exposed’!)

       

      My observation is that OLD can be so all-consuming you forget to take advantage of old-school ways to meet people… like volunteering and bars. Which is a shame, because after OLD for a while, it actually seems way, way easier to just chat up that cute whoever standing behind you in line at Starbucks. At least you know for sure what they look like!

      1. 12.1.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @Lynx

        Other day-to-day activities are fine; however, I am a firm believer that anyone met in a bar should be left in a bar. What I like about OLD is that I can get a feel for a woman before meeting her. While lack of chemistry when meeting in person can be a problem, I will take that to strong chemistry without compatibility. Chemistry-based dating is little more than a hamster wheel from which one cannot escape.

  13. 13
    Randy

    Thanks I try 😀

    I think it could be one of the biggest swindles around dating. Thinking that meeting people in an OLD fashioned way takes too much time. It actually shortens the process of a building relationship.

    No ‘second’ first dates. You know what people look, sound and smell like… And there is a barrier to entry (the guy needs to have some courage)

  14. 14
    Yet Another Guy

    @Randy

    “I think it could be one of the biggest swindles around dating. Thinking that meeting people in an OLD fashioned way takes too much time. It actually shortens the process of a building relationship.”

    Actually, meeting people the old-fashioned way does not shorten the process. What meeting in real life does is remove the continuous noise (online message traffic) that causes a man or woman to continue to seek a bigger, better deal (the illusion that everyone is available to everyone). I guarantee that I am not the only one who is passed on someone I met online because I thought that someone who was in my date pipeline was better only to discover that I was mistaken. I know, as a guy, it is ridiculously easy to be distracted by a woman who is more attractive and/or younger than a woman I have already met in person. It is almost like an addiction. I am certain that women suffer from similar problems due to the sheer number of date candidates.

  15. 15
    Yet Another Guy

    I would like to add an observation that I have made on the free sites (it does not seem to happen anywhere near as often on the pay sites). On the free sites, forty-something and fifty-something women tend to skew their desired age range from their age minus fifteen-plus years to their age or their age plus a year or two and then include language declaring that they are not looking to hookup. As Mr Ron White says, one cannot fix stupid. Here is a case where a woman’s actions do not match her words, at least that is how guys see it. A guy who is looking to hookup sees that kind of age range and just ignores what a woman wrote in her summary. No quality man is going to pursue a peer-age woman with that kind of age range just as no quality woman will give a peer-age man who has the same kind of skew the time of day.

    1. 15.1
      Marika

      Know what most of us do when we see a profile that seems unreasonable or unappealing (very common for both sexes in OLD, btw), YAG?

      Ignore it and move on with our lives..

      1. 15.1.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @Marika

        Like I said, that kind of disconnect from reality does not happen anywhere near as often on the pay sites. I know that it happens on male profiles all of the time, even on pay sites. However, men tend to be more delusional than women on dating sites. That is why so many of them complain about not being able to obtain dates. While some guys could use a little help in the profile creation department, most guys who strike out either go too young or shoot above their pay grade when contacting women. It is like selling anything in a hypercompetitive marketplace. If one packages and prices one’s product correctly, it will sell.

        1. ezamuzed

          My observation in hanging out with a lot of middle age single guys is that they suck at dating an relationships. They are either too boring, have too much baggage or just don’t know how to connect with woman. And they are doing nothing to improve themselves. Because of this for the small percentage of men who are successfully dating they find themselves awash in options so it makes it hard to commit to any particular woman.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @ezamuzed

          I believe that what Evan referenced from the OKCupid publication about women finding 80% of the men on dating sites to be of less than average attractiveness is also at play.   Any guy who is in the other 20% has a lot of options.

          The sad reality is that guys under 5’10” have a rough go on dating sites.  I did not realize how many guys were lying about their height on dating sites until I kept hearing “you are taller than I assumed” when I would meet a woman.  I am a half of inch shy of 6’0″ in bare feet, over 6’0″ in normal dress shoes.  That is not tall, but tall enough.  That what online dating is about; namely, having enough “enoughs.”  A guy has to be tall enough, fit enough, attractive enough, educated well enough, worldly enough, and successful enough.  It is all about checking off boxes in a hypercompetitive marketplace.  The more boxes a man can check off, the greater his options.  However, the most limiting attribute has to be height.  Guys find a much larger range of women attractive because the bar is a lot lower.  A woman only has to be attractive enough and fit enough to draw attention.  Women complain about guys looking for Barbie, but that is an attribute that most women can control.  Losing weight and getting into shape just takes the mindset to do it. Shaming guys for liking fit women is not a path to success in the dating world.

        3. Karl R

          ezamuzed said:

          “My observation in hanging out with a lot of middle age single guys is that they suck at dating an relationships.”

          If you compare them to the men (and women) who excel at relationships, that makes perfect sense.

          If someone is interesting, has no baggage, connects easily with the opposite sex, has stayed attractive, knows how to pick a good long-term partner, knows how to be a good long-term partner, and generally has good dating skills….

          Those people generally aren’t on the dating market during middle age.  And if they happen to end up on the dating market due to circumstances beyond their control, they are taken off the market far more quickly than their less desirable peers.

           

          Dating at middle age pretty much guarantees that dating and relationships aren’t your partner’s strong suit … and they’re probably not your strong suit either.

          Therefore, people dating at middle age have to figure out how to succeed despite their shortcomings.

        4. Yet Another Guy

          @Karl R

          Dating at middle age pretty much guarantees that dating and relationships aren’t your partner’s strong suit … and they’re probably not your strong suit either.

          You are painting with fairly a broad brush.  While what you wrote may apply to people who have never been married, a lot of people who are dating at mid-life are coming out of long marriages.  Almost everyone goes through a period of discovery after divorce, which can often last many years.

        5. Marika

          YAG

          You mention height a lot. Of course it’s stupid when women care about height. But if it hasn’t affected you in dating (as you so often tell us) why get so hung up on it?

        6. ezamuzed

          @Yet Another Guy

          Most of my online dating experience came from Bumble and Tinder. I found okcupid and match to be far to much work.  Since those apps don’t include data such as money or height I would think they would help the average sized man.

          One of my best friends is also on Tinder and Bumble and he is only 5’7.  He has a lot of success with woman because he is in decent shape, smart and witty. He also is not afraid to voice his opinion on things and will openly talk about sex in a fun non-creepy manner.

          That said, I’m 6’2 and one line on my Bumble profile read: “Taller than you in heels”

        7. Yet Another Guy

          @Marika

          You mention height a lot. Of course it’s stupid when women care about height. But if it hasn’t affected you in dating (as you so often tell us) why get so hung up on it?

          Because I think that putting so much emphasis on height is incredibly shallow, especially when a women is 5’4″ or shorter.  Women hate it when they are being compared to Barbie, but feel absolutely justified in being discriminatory when it comes to height. Most of the singe guys I know are in the 5’7″ to 5’9″ range, and they struggle on dating sites like Match where a woman can state a height preference.   In my area, over 80% of women on Match have a minimum male height of 5’10”, which according to the CDC is an inch taller than the average American man.  Match only shows women men who meet their preferences, which makes men shorter than 5’10” invisible to most women.  I have known several of my single male friends since childhood.  We grew up and became men together, so to say that we are more like brothers than friends is an understatement.  It pisses me off that a guy like me can get away with being a borderline douche bag and still get women while these guys cannot get a date without lying about their height.  I do not want my gain to come at their loss.  I guess that I may have conscience after all. 🙂

        8. Yet Another Guy

          @ezamuzed

          That said, I’m 6’2 and one line on my Bumble profile read: “Taller than you in heels”

          That is hilarious. I think that I am going to steal that line for sites like Bumble where height is not specified.

        9. Scooter

          YAG
          You mention height a lot. Of course it’s stupid when women care about height. But if it hasn’t affected you in dating (as you so often tell us) why get so hung up on it?

          Why is he mentioning it?  I can give absurd reasons I’ve heard from many women:
          1) “I need to be shorter than you in heels” has no utility, other than to display an archaic social status.  Otherwise, why is it necessary.

          2) “I want to feel protected.”  From what? And how does height directly correlate to being a better protector?

          And there are many other ridiculous reasons. This is NOT to say that women don’t have preference for taller guys, and in a sexual context, that is justifiably given.  Sexual attraction is very personal.

          However, those women who may be attracted to someone under 6′ (however far under), but won’t date him because she doesn’t want to be ridiculed, or feel social pressure? That’s a bs situation.  That’s being weak-minded, and quite frankly..

          That’s all due to societal indoctrination.

          In the realm of dating and love, unless you’re one of the top.. 5% of individuals with regards to looks and status, disregarding a potential man based on height is unreasonable, and NOT a preference; it’s a hard-core #1 qualifier.

          And don’t get me started on how women go bat-(*&t for being judged on weight, but openly ridicule and marginalize men based on height.

          I think it’s fair to ask a woman how much she weighs, if she has a height-requirement.

          Right, ladies?

        10. Yet Another Guy

          @Scooter

          I agree with many of your assertions, but the true threshold is not 6’0″,  it is 5’10”.  It is fairly easy to determine this height threshold if one reads enough female profiles on Match.  While men like to complain about it, very few women have 6’0″ set as the lower bound of their preferred height range just as very few women have 5’11” set as their lower bound.  Even women who are 5’8″ have 5’10” set as their lower height bound, and 5’8″ is roughly the 95th percentile for female height in the United States.   The woman I met last night is 5’9″.   I am only 2.5″ taller than her.  She did not have a problem with my height.  What was her lower height bound? It was 5’10”.  The reality is that 5’10” is a hard lower height bound for men.  While not exactly tall, 5’10” is still 1″ taller than the average American man, which demonstrates a disconnect between female desire and male population demographics.

          By the way, yes, women would burn any dating site to the ground that required them to list their measurements, weight, and band/cup size.  However, a man has to list all of the female primal triggers.

        11. AdaGrace

          @Karl R:

          If someone is interesting, has no baggage, connects easily with the opposite sex, has stayed attractive, knows how to pick a good long-term partner, knows how to be a good long-term partner, and generally has good dating skills….

          Those people generally aren’t on the dating market during middle age.  And if they happen to end up on the dating market due to circumstances beyond their control, they are taken off the market far more quickly than their less desirable peers.

          I think that’s not necessarily true.  I’m all of the things you mention — however, I think the number of single men who ALSO fit these criteria grows smaller with age, plus having good relationship skills doesn’t mean one will be a good match for EVERY member of the appropriate sex who also has good relationship skills, even if there’s mutual attraction.  Going out on dates with as many people as possible increases the chances that one will meet someone very compatible and sufficiently attractive for who feels likewise, but that still takes time.  My therapist claims she’s rarely seen a woman with discernment skills as good as mine*, and it’s true that I almost always weed out obviously incompatible men by date #2.  So I tend to go a few years at a time between relationships but then pair up with good men, men of integrity, for long periods of time — most for 18ish months, but also an 11 year LTR and a 13-year marriage (that ended due to his midlife psychotic break/personality change)

           

          I suspect I’m not unique in this respect, being ok with “good enough” but also sufficiently discerning to determine when someone actually IS “good enough” in the right ways, thus “on the market” for a while each time I’ve been single.

           

          (* nearly everything I saw in Love U was stuff I’d already either intuited or learned from experience in terms of weeding out inappropriate men… I grew up with brothers as well as a dad who’s not only a great partner for my personality-disordered mom but also spent a lot of time with me as I grew up.  So I already knew (by example) how a good man/good partner behaves, and (by contrast) how to be a supportive partner to such a man, when I started dating.  For those who weren’t as lucky, I think Evan teaches amazing discernment and relationship skills.  Also, he did a great job reworking my profile, something that’s finally started to bear fruit in the past two months or so in terms of allowing me to meet many more men in person, and more men => increased chance of meeting a good potential partner)

      2. 15.1.2
        SparklingEmerald

        KarlR said “Therefore, people dating at middle age have to figure out how to succeed despite their shortcomings.

        We ALL have our shortcomings, married or not.  We ALL have to navigate through life despite our shortcomings.  I have never understood using one’s marital/couple status as some sort of litmus test for a person’s character. Not when I was single, not when I was married.

        As the by-product of the an EXTREMELY dysfunctional marriage of over 50 years, I do not think that long, battle worn marriage was any testimonial to a lack of shortcomings on my parents part.  (My father was an abusive, narcissist and my mother allowed herself and her children to be subjected to it, out of extreme fear)  I have observed many marriages between people with serious short comings, so no, I don’t think being married points to any superiority in the character department.   I know some mighty fine people who have never been married, who like ALL people have their short comings, but I don’t consider them to be less perfect than married folks.

        We are ALL flawed.  And yet many of us flawed humans manage to find someone with a set of flaws we can live with and vice versa.

         

    2. 15.2
      Clare

      Yeah YAG.

      There are plenty of people with unreasonable or off-putting requirements in their profiles. Why waste energy analysing them or trying to show them the error of their ways? If you don’t want to contact them that is of course your God-given right.

      Just keep moving right along.

      1. 15.2.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @Clare

        I do not bother with these women.  It was just an observation of a behavior that is disconnected from reality that occurs  frequently on the free sites.  I always assumed that women where the more grounded gender.

        I recently had a long conversation about online dating with a guy I met at a local pub.   He was complaining about not meeting any women, so I asked to see his profile.  His upper age range bound was a decade younger than his chronological age.  When I brought that to his attention, he  told me that he did not find peer-age women attractive.   The reality is that there are quite a few very attractive peer-age women on that site, a few amazingly so.   I tried to convince him that he would improve his odds by raising his upper bound to at least his age, but he refused.  That is another case of one cannot fix stupid.

        1. Clare

          YAG,

          I have no sympathy with such people. In fact, whenever someone complains of being lonely or of not being able to find someone, you find that 99% of the time they themselves are the ones excluding large numbers of people who would be great company for them.

          In a world of 7 billion people, there is no reason for anyone to be lonely or not to be able to find a partner. But of course, if they live in their own deluded fantasy world, not much one can do about that.

          As Evan has so frequently pointed out, everyone usually eventually has to compromise on something to find a lasting, happy relationship. Just be sure you are compromising on the right things. Someone who is so rigid about age requirements is, in my opinion, either dooming himself to be lonely or to being with people who are with him for the wrong reasons (since his reasons are superficial, that is what he will attract).

  16. 16
    Marika

    Scooter and YAG

    Of course people have unrealistic and unreasonable dating requirements, particularly online. You’re highly attuned to those of women… because you date women.

    My point is, how does mentioning it over and over help or change anything? I would ask the same thing of a woman complaining over and over that men (as a group, not all) are obsessed with x (youth, thinness, etc).

    1. 16.1
      Clare

      Agree with you, Marika.

      Also, to YAG and Scooter’s point about women’s height requirements, the precious few women whom I know who seem overly enamoured with tall men are their own worst enemy when it comes to dating. I have a friend who is drawn like a moth to a flame to tall, blonde haired, blue eyed surfer dudes who… dadadaduh! often end up being douchebags.

      It’s a great pity that she is so focused on their physical qualities because it blinds her to what she should be looking for in a partner.

      My point is, women who are overly focused on unreasonable height requirements (much like men who are overly focused on big boobs or something comparable) will get sorted out by the process itself. There’s no need for the rest of us to get our knickers in a knot about it 🙂

      1. 16.1.1
        Scooter

        Clare, it’s a big deal because we’re not talking about a minority of women who happen to have a preference; the majority of women have height as a REQUIREment. For most women height seems to supercede all other qualities combined. So, if a 5’6 guy is attractive, fit, well-to-do with a fun personality, he still loses because he’s only 5’6. Now, you may not think that way, but too many women do.

        If you want proof, all you have to do is go to Match.com and do some perusal. I know there are studies out there that support this claim. And this is nothing like men with boob-fetishes, or whatnot. Men have preferences that run on a spectrum. I promise you that most men who like women with big breasts will not turn-away an attractive woman with small breasts. No-how-no-way.

        Anyway, that’s why my “knickers are in a knot”. Lol.. 🙂

      2. 16.1.2
        SparklingEmerald

        I must live in an alternate universe, because I really DGAF about a man’s height, and in my whole life I’ve only known ONE woman who did, and she was quite tall herself, and teased in her childhood about being tall.  One of my very pretty friends who was pursued by many men, fell head over heels for a man a bit shorter than herself, but he refused to commit to her, they had a fairly long “you’re not my girlfriend” type of relationship.  All of my major relationship have been with men 5’8″ or shorter.

        When I was on match, one could select “no preference” for hair and eye color and even income, which I did.  There was NO option to skip over height.  No “no preference” in the drop down box, no skipping over that box, so perhaps Match.coms INSISTENCE on selecting a height preference skewed things a bit.  I just picked the lowest and highest range, since Match wouldn’t let me skip or state no preference.  Maybe it has changed, I have been off of match for about 4 years now.

        Evan ran an article that said short men get laid, and one male poster chimed in with “but are they getting laid by 10s”.  So apparently it is OK for men to have perfect beauty as a requirement in women, and that is perfectly fine, even though an averagely cute woman would be a good partner.

        I was once called a liar and told to fuck off on this board when I related a story about how one of match dates lied about his smoking AND his height.  I said that the smoking was a deal breaker, but that I didn’t really about his height, but I did care that he LIED about both.  The poster after telling me to fuck off said that I knew darn well that I rejected him due to his height.  That  comment was later pulled.

        I think this perception that all women have a hard height requirement is exaggerated, to the point that women, like me who honestly have no height requirement aren’t believed, and/or, if we aren’t a perfect 10 ourselves, well it doesn’t matter.

        I see many couples with the men under 6 feet tall.

        Also, many bloggers, both male and female criticize and and ALL female preferences, not just height.  Apparently, our desires, in the eyes of some are immaterial.  I have been criticized for having “non smoker” as a deal breaker.  Also accused of not caring about a man’s character because I am turned off by gray Duck Dynasty type beards.  (I am fine with a small amount of neatly trimmed facial hair, my husband has a moustache and goatee)  I was criticized for having my age preference listed as a range of plus or minus 10 years.  Apparently, I was supposed to only have a higher range in the plus column and a lower age in the minus column.  So even though I DGAF about height, the fact that I had ANY deal breakers or ANY preference was off putting to some, because apparently women are supposed to accept anyone, while men, even plain ones can demand a perfect 10 in looks from women.

        Also, this is a blog for women who want advice on dating.  Let’s not get our knickers in a knot about posters who have their knickers in a knot.  This is an ADVICE column, not a column for people with no problems to talk about how wonderful life is.  If you don’t want to hear people’s complaints about dating, don’t puruse a dating advice blog.

        Scooter, I am sorry that apparently you have always been rejected for the sole reason of your height.  But there ARE women in the world who couldn’t care less.  I am one of them, but you probably don’t believe me.  There are probably women you have passed over yourself who would have been good partners, but they weren’t pretty enough for you.  Do you give average looking women a chance ?

        1. Marika

          SE

          It’s not about pretending our lives are all so perfect…as you said this is an advice blog, not an endless- complaining- about something- you- can’t-control -and -not- taking- on- any-advice- offered blog. There’s a big difference between having a little moan when things aren’t working out, vs fixating on an issue and mentioning it every chance you get. Don’t see how the latter is helpful.

        2. Clare

          Marika has summed up my thoughts about it.

          I’m not trying to be all Pollyanna about it and dismiss the very real observations which YAG, Scooter et al. have made about women’s height preferences. I’m sure it is very frustrating to witness women being hung up on something so superficial.

          However, these guys seem to complain about *the same thing* ad nauseum. What does this achieve? We all get it. Evan has written about it many times. Do these guys believe that women with these height preferences will read this blog and the sheer volume of the comments will change their minds?

          My point is, instead of indulging endless moaning about women’s height preferences, why not reframe the issue. *That* is something that actually is in one’s power to change, unlike women’s height preferences. If you are a man who is 5’7″ you need to, ipso facto, focus on the women who don’t mind dating men of that height (I happen to be one of them). The two follow logically on from one another. I don’t really see what there is to debate about that.

          Though it may be a smaller pool, I would venture to say that the chances of a guy finding a quality woman is higher in doing this because she will be someone less likely to be fixated on superficial qualities.

          Asking for advice is one thing – endless moaning about something you can’t change is quite another.

      3. 16.1.3
        mgm531

        @Clare

        Women’s eight preferences or requirements is an issue with online dating.  Not for all women of course, but not an insignificant number.  I once did an impromptu survey of 100 profiles of women in my age range on a popular online dating site.  Of those 100 profiles 38 specifically stated a height preference of 5’10” or taller.  So my random, totally unscientific survey showed that just a tad under 40% of the women I viewed still had hangups about a man’s height.  So as I said,  not all, but not an insignificant number.  As a man that does not reach that golden height of 5’10” I used to get upset about height requirements that so many women have, but I’ve gotten over it.  It is what it is.  But it does mean that if I see a profile of a woman that is close to or taller than my height I generally do not message them.  As it is statistically I only have a 10-20% chance of a response to my initial message anyways, so not much point in reducing the chances even more so.  So yeah, height is still an issue for a lot of women, but it’s not something that I can do about personally, so not much point in lamenting it.

        1. SparklingEmerald

          MGM said “So my random, totally unscientific survey showed that just a tad under 40% of the women I viewed still had hangups about a man’s height.

          Turn that number around and 62% did not have a “hang up” about height.  Also, was this popular dating site match.com ?  If so, when I was on there, there was NO WAY to not select a height preference.  One could NOT skip over this, nor was there a “no preference” option.  My totally unscientific opinion is that if one could opt out of that question, the results would be different.  I haven’t been on match in about 4 years (married now, met  under 5’10” hubby online).
          I think if most women meet a man IRL, she would not whip out a measuring tape to see how tall he was.  If she was organically attracted to him IRL, that would be enough.  When artificially REQUIRED to list a height preference,  many women may just pull a number out of thin air that seems reasonable or add X number of inches to their own height.  (The formula might be her height + her high heel height + 1″  🙂  If I could go back in time, I would have sent match a suggestion to make the height requirement list an OPTION, so women like me did NOT have to artificially list a height preference, if we really don’t have one.

          My unscientific guess is that the same percentage of men are holding out for a girl who is a 9 or 10 in the looks department, (preferably a 10).  (That was a half joking remark)

          Many men have very specific body type requirements, and I am not just talking about weight.  They want a particular cup size, a particular leg length, a particular butt shape, etc.  A woman could have a healthy weight for her height and still fail the leg length test, or her caboose could be too flat or her boobs too small.  Guess what, only a small percentage will meet THAT check list, and that’s OK.  It only takes one.  I think putting aside ALL check list requirements from BOTH genders (don’t kid yourselves, men have check lists to) most people aren’t going to fit the bill for at least half of the other seekers out there.  That’s why we date, to find that small percentage of people who want us, and choose from among those.

           

    2. 16.2
      Scooter

      Marika, I mention it, because it’s not fun to be told (either directly, or indirectly) that height is the only reason one isn’t a candidate, despite hitting all the other check-marks. These women in particular seem to want to date such a man, but are afraid to do so, and figure: “Why deal with the taboo, when there are plenty of other taller guys to choose from?” Then again, this does have the positive effect of filtering out those women who are more “cookie-cutter” with regards to convention, and will. Most women who date me are so unique and interesting, and tend to have a “I don’t care what others think” attitude. Furthermore, the older I (and the women I date) get, the more I find such women. I know why, and I really don’t care. It’s refreshing and fun.

      Again, it’s just frustrating; I have no malice. And believe me, even Evan has intimated the same as you, in the past (to me). So, no worries. 🙂

      As an aside, I just got out of a five-month relationship with a stunningly attractive woman, who didn’t judge me by height. She was just a smidge shorter than me, if you’re curious. But in heels? Taller. and it never mattered to her.
      That being said, the break-up was not easy, and has hit me very hard. We spoke a couple of days ago, and she said in no unclear terms that we would never get back together. For me, despite the anxiety and depression, I can analyze our relationship. I can appreciate what she did for me, as well as her flaws. I must learn, and move on. There is no going backwards.

      I have found a commonality with attractive, or even not-so, who have dated me, and decided to break-up. It amazes me how quickly their “switch” can flip from “I love you” to “we’re done.. I’m moving on”. Maybe some of you women can comment on this using your own experiences? I’d really appreciate it.

      I’m trying to pick myself up, and so I come here to read and post.

      Final interesting observation: I put myself on Match.com, last week. I really worked on my profile, and put up my best pics. I didn’t puff up any of my stats (and never have), or exaggerate my other qualities. I submit that I do have some very good qualities.. thank goodness. Lo’ and behold.. I’m actually matching with some attractive high quality women. Not many, mind you, because I’m still being filtered-out by many women, based on height. But my goodness, I am humbled to see how many actually don’t care about it that much.

      Anyway, thank you for listening to my story.
      I look forward to the comments, and ensuing advice + entertainment.

      1. 16.2.1
        Clare

        Scooter,

        “It amazes me how quickly their “switch” can flip from “I love you” to “we’re done.. I’m moving on”. Maybe some of you women can comment on this using your own experiences? I’d really appreciate it.”

        Hmm. From my and my female friends’ experience, I think this can happen for a few different reasons.

        1. Women will often be unhappy with a relationship, or an aspect of the relationship, for some time. But it might take her a long time to process a decision to leave. Therefore, it might seem as if she is going quickly from “I love you” to “I’m done,” when in reality, she is simply going from “I’m in this relationship” to “I’ve made the decision to leave.” Her actual feelings might not have changed all that much (many people break up when they still deeply love the person they’re breaking up with), but her decision to stay in the relationship has.

        2. Sometimes a woman will seem to have a big change of heart due to advice she receives from a close friend or family member. Sometimes, people close to us can make us see things in a completely different light. This can be a good thing (eg. when they help us see something we might have been blind to), or it can be a negative thing (if the friend or family member is being manipulative or has a negative agenda).

        3. In some cases, it could be that she’s fallen in love with someone else. When this happens, it can make our feelings change very quickly and drastically. I’ve had friends whom this has happened to. They were dating someone and they thought all was fine, and the person broke up with them seemingly out of nowhere and is dating someone else shortly after. Although this sucks, be thankful that they ended it rather than stringing you along or cheating on you.

        4. Similarly, her goals might have changed, and she realises that she can no longer see you fitting in with these goals. This happens more and more as women get older, I think. Especially independent, successful women are often very goal-oriented, and if she realises her life is not going in the direction she wants, she might want a change of course.

        Hope this helps. Sorry to hear about your recent break up. It sucks :/

        1. Karl R

          Scooter,

          Based on my experience, Clare is correct.  I’ve particularly encountered #1 before.  In the weeks leading up to the breakup, I got a sense that things were off, even though the outward signs were extremely small.  Too small for me to openly call out as a change (without seeming insecure or paranoid).

          While there may be exceptions, most women don’t flip like a switch.  They conceal the shift their feelings while they’re changing their mind (at a much slower pace).

          As someone who plays things close to the vest, I’ve been somewhat similar when the situation was reversed.  With one girlfriend, I tried to discuss the problem with her (two or three times).  Each time, she quickly shut down the conversation.  So the next time the situation arose, I didn’t even bother opening my mouth.  Instead, I started having the conversations with myself….

          … “I don’t like the current situation.” …

          … “This isn’t going to change.” …

          … “Why am I sticking with this relationship?” …

          … “I was happier before I started dating her.” …

          … “I need to break things off.” …

           

          It probably seemed to that girlfriend that the relationship was improving.  From her perspective, the disagreement had stopped.  It hadn’t.  I’d just stopped trying to include her in the discussions.  Even though I’d been the one who pursued the relationship, the one who’d been attracted to her for years, it only took a few weeks to completely switch from “I want this to work,” to “How am I getting out?”

          If you’re dating someone who is conflict-avoidant, you might not get included in the discussion the first time.  Then it’s really going to blindside you.

        2. Scooter

          Clare and Karl R:

          Thank you so much for your responses. As someone who is analytical (first), I think I knew what was going on. However, when there are heavy emotional ties, and more importantly, communication issues, getting to the heart of problems can be nigh impossible.

          Again, thanks so much.

      2. 16.2.2
        Marika

        Scooter

        I’m really sorry to hear about your breakup. I also take break ups hard, even when I’m not happy in the relationship and know it needs to end, and rarely bounce back quickly. I don’t think it’s a gender thing, I think that reaction is more to do with personality and attachment style (I have a somewhat anxious style, so particularly when I’ve been with a more avoidant person, which is my pattern, a break up can feel to me like I’m 3 years old again and being dropped off at preschool).

        I guess at the very least, she didn’t drag it out or give you false hope. It definitely hurts, and I can empathise, but it’s great to hear you’re having some success online and getting back out there. That’s really all you can do 🙂

        Just a thought..I invite you to read back over your comment and note how many times you mention the word ‘attractive’. Perhaps you have some dating biases of your own… 😉

        1. Scooter

          Thank you, Marika.  I really appreciate the constructive banter and advice from you, Karl, YAG, Clare, and the rest.

          Yes, I did mention “attractive” a number of times.  Lol.. but then again that’s part of it, right?

          I’m going (to try and) take the lessons learned from that relationship, and change.  Ya know.. she said at one-point that “people don’t change”.  (It wasn’t a jibe at me)  I completely disagree; people develop over time.  I am not the same man compared to myself five years ago.

        2. Marika

          Thanks for your response and kind words, Scooter.

          You seem like a really nice and self-aware guy and I am sorry women are placing so much emphasis on height. I do know it’s a thing, but I also know other women like me who don’t care.

          Maybe try not to give off the vibe that it’s even on your radar as a potential issue, if you can, as I did have one bad experience with a guy online who was around 4 inches shorter than me and kept bringing it up. He was clearly very self-conscious about it (he even ‘warned’ me before we met, asking had I looked at the height box on his profile before responding to his message- no it hadn’t even occurred to me to look). Not that I blame him, but it made a non-issue into an issue and I kept feeling like I had to reassure him all the time. Don’t do that. He eventually ghosted on me, then contacted me some time later to apologise and explain that he was self-conscious about his height, but could we give it another go. I told him I didn’t care about the height, but I did care about the ghosting.

          I guess we are all hyper aware of the things that affect us, but trust me, women have to put up with some serious nonsense too. Fair enough, it’s easier for women to get sex and attention online than men, but there are lots of other issues we contend with you wouldn’t see. Seth’s comments on the other thread are good examples, or all the MGTOW types who say women have a shelf life of 30….I also know multiple women who were so self-conscious about their post-baby bodies they actually got surgery (i.e. breast feeding can really take a toll, as can c-sections or tears etc), so I wouldn’t downplay the plight of women who’ve had kids and are dating in the shallow Internet world. I was with my ex for 9 years, he assured me he would have more kids (he already had kids from a previous marriage), then decided, actually no… 9 years down the track. Doesn’t affect him, he’s had his kids and doesn’t have a female biological clock to worry about. But pretty unfair to me.

          So we’ve all got our stuff…even tall people! 🙂

        3. Scooter

          Marika: Maybe try not to give off the vibe that it’s even on your radar as a potential issue, if you can, as I did have one bad experience with a guy online who was around 4 inches shorter than me and kept bringing it up. He was clearly very self-conscious about it (he even ‘warned’ me before we met, asking had I looked at the height box on his profile before responding to his message- no it hadn’t even occurred to me to look).

          Believe me, I don’t have an issue with it for myself, and I never bring it up, or even worry about it once I’m with someone. Everything I am mentioning concerning height has to do with being disregarded even before opening one’s mouth, or “better-yet” looking at photos!

          I am so sorry your ex did that to you!  That is truly reprehensible, especially given it was nine years down the line, and the fact you are a woman who wanted children!  Seriously.. I have no words.

  17. 17
    Tom10

    “Online Dating is the Worst”
     
    I’ll admit to having a few online dating disasters in my time:
     
    –          I’ve fallen asleep on two separate dates; reminder not to go on a boozy date after a long day at work! The first girl was gone when I woke up; the second was happily chatting to other patrons in the bar and was simply bemused when I woke up. Yikes.
    –         I’ve gotten confused about who I was on the date with as I was texting too many women that week; “Oh, I thought you were the 32-year-old engineer from X, no?” Oops.
    –         One girl was offended when I accepted her offer to buy me a drink, so when she went to the bar she brought me back some-one else’s half-drunk drink!!!
    –         Another woman could barely speak any English and I’ve no Spanish at all. I hadn’t anticipated the issue as she was quite adept at texting in English, however, that didn’t translate into verbal communication whatsoever. Well, that was an awkward few hours.
     
    So, why is Online Dating worse than other dating media?
     
    I assume, primarily it’s due to:
     
    –          Unaccountability for the consequences of our behavior. We don’t know who we’re dating, therefore if our behavior isn’t up to par there are no tangible consequences; we simply block/unmatch the other party and keep it moving. If we were dating a friend of a friend/family we might be cognizant to behave a bit better.
    –         Endless options. There are simply, literally endless amounts of people to date on-online; no matter how many bad dates we go on/how many times we mess up, there will always be so many more people we could meet after just a few messages.

    My main gripe with Online Dating is just how slow the whole process is; spending days communicating with someone only to know within 3 seconds of meeting that there’s no attraction at all. The apps should really organize weekly meetings for everyone to get together at the same time and place so every dater can meet 30 people face-to-face every week rather than 1 or 2.
     
    So, what to do?
     
    –          I suppose, in theory, one of the dating apps could introduce an accountability module into the software; a name-and-shame mechanism whereby lazy daters are exposed as a bad risk in advance. However, I reckon that could fatally harm that program’s popularity as we’ve all been responsible for a few bad dates in our time and deserve a clean slate going-forward. Also, such a mechanism would be highly vulnerable to being abused by a member still sore after being dumped/ignored/faded out.
    –         Alternatively, and of much more benefit would simply to get better filtering out inappropriate people much quicker. Not taking the easy date due to laziness and actually bothering to put in some effort in our profiles and communication!

  18. 18
    Karl R

    Scooter said: (#16.2.2.1)

    “I’m going (to try and) take the lessons learned from that relationship, and change.  Ya know.. she said at one-point that ‘people don’t change’.  (It wasn’t a jibe at me)  I completely disagree; people develop over time.”

    I agree with you on this one.  Both Evan and I agree that you can’t change other people … and that the only person that you can change is yourself.  And we both say that as people who changed … to our ultimate benefit.

     

    On a separate point, I certainly sympathize with shorter men.  I’ve had lengthy arguments with women (in other threads on this blog) regarding attitudes toward height.  It doesn’t bother me so much that they express an irrational preference for tall men.  (We all have irrational preferences.)  It really irritates me that so many women try to rationalize their preference by vilifying short men.

    Given the “check-box” mentality that dominates online dating, you’re likely to have better success rates in person, as compared to online.  Even if you don’t at this moment, you seem like the type of person who could build up the skillset to do well (regardless of height) face-to-face.

    You may have that skillset already.

     

    Scooter said: (#16.2.1.2)

    “As someone who is analytical (first), I think I knew what was going on. However, when there are heavy emotional ties, and more importantly, communication issues, getting to the heart of problems can be nigh impossible.”

    I hear you.  As someone who is highly analytical, I’ve had numerous situations where my intuition was telling me that the situation was shifting … and the analytical side of me was saying the change was within the “signal-to-noise” ratio.

    If you find yourself in that situation, assume that it’s noise, not signal.  I’m not saying that because it’s noise.  It’s probably signal.  But you’ll seem much cooler for not freaking out over a small shift in the situation.  That “coolness” won’t save your current relationship.  It will help your rep for future relationships.

    1. 18.1
      Scooter

      Thanks again, Karl!  Hope you don’t mind if I ask for advice from time-to-time.

       

      On a separate point, I certainly sympathize with shorter men.  I’ve had lengthy arguments with women (in other threads on this blog) regarding attitudes toward height.  It doesn’t bother me so much that they express an irrational preference for tall men.  (We all have irrational preferences.)  It really irritates me that so many women try to rationalize their preference by vilifying short men.

      It’s crazy, isn’t it?  Judging an individual in such a negative manner, solely based on an immutable trait (leaving innate attraction aside in this convo), is insane.  But many women and men, even well-educated and/or intelligent individuals, seem to hold this irrational bias.  There have been times when  friends have made off-color comments right in front of me, and I looked at them as if to say: “Are you really that dumb?”.   However, people do it all the time based on other characteristics, and as mentioned, it’s just human nature.  People can be indoctrinated into thinking and behaving in almost any manner.

      Given the “check-box” mentality that dominates online dating, you’re likely to have better success rates in person, as compared to online.  Even if you don’t at this moment, you seem like the type of person who could build up the skillset to do well (regardless of height) face-to-face.
      You may have that skillset already.

      I’ve thought about this, and wholeheartedly agree.  However, I have the road-block of overcoming what is commonly called, “approach anxiety”.  It’s difficult for someone like me (who is sensitive), to go up to women in public, with the knowledge I will get shot-down most of the time due to something out of my control.

      But.. I also know I have no time left to be passive. So, I am going to be more brave. And believe me, I can hold a conversation.  Once I am “in”, I go on cruise-control.  I’m definitely not “shy”, in that respect.

      To get over this.. and I hope peeps here don’t judge me too harshly, I watch vids of some PUAs  in-action, who are more grounded (i.e. not women-bashers).  It gives me perspective and confidence, because if these guys can do it, I feel I certainly can.

      If you find yourself in that situation, assume that it’s noise, not signal.  I’m not saying that becauseit’s noise.  It’sprobablysignal.  But you’llseemmuch cooler for not freaking out over a small shift in the situation.  That“coolness”won’t save your current relationship.  It will help your rep forfuturerelationships.

      Yes, this is a lesson I have learned, already. I know to keep cool even when I am fuming inside, because I know what’s going on and/or coming.  Furthermore, some of the women I have been with seem to want to set me off, in that stage, so as to help confirm and reinforce whatever reasons they have for wanting to break-up.

      Signal-to-noise ratio.  Are you an engineer, Karl? 🙂

      1. 18.1.1
        Karl R

        You’re welcome.  I don’t mind if you ask me questions, but I’m not always paying attention when people ask me questions.

        I’m not an engineer, but I’m friends with several.  I became familiar with SNR back when I was reading Usenet newsgroups.

         

        Scooter said:

        “I have the road-block of overcoming what is commonly called, ‘approach anxiety’.  It’s difficult for someone like me (who is sensitive), to go up to women in public, with the knowledge I will get shot-down most of the time due to something out of my control.”

        Everyone gets shot down most of the time.  Usually for something out of their control.

        Most guys have some degree of approach anxiety.  If you get shot down enough times, you get over it.

         

        I believe that many men struggle because they have an unrealistic idea of what their success rate is going to be.  The PUA guys really make a point of saying that men don’t succeed frequently, so they need to approach a lot of women.  I completely agree with them on that.

        Over time, I developed a pretty good radar for when women were interested in me.  In general, instead of getting shot down, I’d just get lukewarm signals while chatting with a woman … then move on to someone else.  (Obviously, this doesn’t work online … which at least partly explains why my success rate was vastly lower there.)

         

        My thoughts on PUAs:

        If you can get around the fancy jargon, much of what they say is just common sense.  Many/most of them are seeking a different goal (NSA sex), so their advice is often better suited to that, and sometimes detrimental to forming a more long-term relationship.  But it is certainly possible to learn useful information from them.

        1. Tom10

          @ Karl R #18.1.1
          “Most guys have some degree of approach anxiety.  If you get shot down enough times, you get over it.”
           
          I dunno about this Karl; I think one has to have a certain percentage of success, in conjunction with the multiple shoot-downs, in order to “get over it”. And it’s the success which is the active ingredient; without it the rejectee is just going to become more and more frustrated and bitter with every further rejection; eventually possibly leading to giving up altogether (mgtow).
           
          The unfortunate reality is that some people struggle in dating due to circumstances outside of their control. Scooter is, unfortunately, right. Such is life. Conversely, dating is simple for others due to sheer pot-luck.
           
          But as Marika pointed out such unfairness/luck applies to both genders (in different ways).
           
          If one struggles with approach anxiety the key is to approach a member of the opposite sex with a perceivably similar or lower fairness/unfairness level. Gauging this accurately will increase/lower the odds of being shot-down. If an individual can’t gauge this from afar it might be worth seeking an objective opinion (some people seem to have an instinctive ability to gauge this whereas others, for whatever reason, just seem to have no clue at all).
           
          With each success future approach anxiety should reduce commensurately, and vice-versa.

        2. Karl R

          Tom10,

          While some degree of success is necessary, most people set their goals too high — all or nothing.  Therefore, they see failure where I saw success.

          At the age 35, I’d never asked a near stranger for a phone number.  Just doing that, regardless of the outcome, was an accomplishment (for me).

          But most men tie their sense of accomplishment to the outcome, rather than their own action.  If I asked a woman for her phone number under circumstances where I previously wouldn’t, that was a success.

          If I got a polite, “Sorry, I have a boyfriend,” where the woman seemed flattered that I asked (rather than repulsed that I had asked), that was a resounding success.

          I spent much of 2007 having disappointing first dates through Match.com.  At least I got to a first date.  And regardless of how I felt about the women, or how they felt about me, I became more relaxed on first dates.

          Partly that was due to the low success rate.  I no longer placed high hopes on a first date, because the outcomes were usually “meh”.  But it looked like confidence.  Near the end of 2007 I ended up with two first dates in the same weekend.  I was completely relaxed during both of them.  With one of them (the one that was ultimately more successful), my date was visibly nervous.

          It was kinda cute.

           

          Even if things went two or three dates and fizzled, I treated it as an encouraging sign, rather than a complete failure.

          I believe too many people (men and women) get an encouraging sign, then set their sights on the goal of a long-term relationship … and get their hopes completely dashed when reality fails to match their fantasy.  They see it as a failure, when they could choose to see it as a sign that others find them attractive.

           

          Tom10 said:

          “If one struggles with approach anxiety the key is to approach a member of the opposite sex with a perceivably similar or lower fairness/unfairness level.”

          That’s nearly impossible to judge.  Even with other people offering their opinions, I could ask three people and expect six opinions.

          It’s a bit easier to say “steer away from the people that everyone is chasing.”  (That’s usually fairly obvious.)  Approach the people you find attractive, but who are receiving noticeably less attention from others.  It definitely improves one’s odds.

          My wife was receiving some attention from other men, before I started dating her.  But most of it was from men who were much older than me, less attractive than me, etc.

        3. Scooter

          Karl, I agree, and believe me, I would go in knowing my success rate is going to be low.  Even in the PUA vids made by fairly good-looking guys, the success rate seems low.  It’s a difficult thing to do.

          I can definitely pick-up on “lukewarm” vs interested.  I’m good, there.  My key is to not become “frustrated”, as Tom10 says in his response to you.

          Tom10:

          If one struggles with approach anxiety the key is to approach a member of the opposite sex with a perceivably similar or lower fairness/unfairness level. 

          You’re essentially saying “play within your league”.  I get it.. but seemingly like everyone else in the dating-realm, I aim towards the upper-boundary. 😉

        4. Yet Another Guy

          @Scooter

          “You’re essentially saying “play within your league”. I get it.. but seemingly like everyone else in the dating-realm, I aim towards the upper-boundary.”

          You need to approach a mix of women, not just the upper boundary. SMV – women usually make up for in fun what they lack in looks, and SMV + women can often be total pains in the backside who are not worth the effort. I am successful with women by most measures, but I have also crashed and burned with my fair share of woman. I am talking about the 5-alarm, bursting into raging flames kind of crash and burn. Do you know what? Rejection is part of playing the game. You need to remember that other women in the room are watching how you handle rejection, so you need to muster whatever intestinal fortitude you have and handle it like a confident man. How you handle rejection is a quasi-shit test for the other women in the room. While women often do not want a man who another woman rejected, handling it like a whiny little man will seal your fate. Part of becoming charming is being able to handle rejection like a confident and masculine man.

        5. Scooter

          Yet Another Guy: Rejection is part of playing the game. You need to remember that other women in the room are watching how you handle rejection, so you need to muster whatever intestinal fortitude you have and handle it like a confident man. How you handle rejection is a quasi-shit test for the other women in the room. While women often do not want a man who another woman rejected, handling it like a whiny little man will seal your fate. Part of becoming charming is being able to handle rejection like a confident and masculine man.YAG.. thanks for the advice.  I take it you had to learn the hard way, not to be a big b*&^h, when being rejected?  I already know it, and practice it, so no worries. 😉

    2. 18.2
      Yet Another Guy

      @Karl R

      “On a separate point, I certainly sympathize with shorter men. I’ve had lengthy arguments with women (in other threads on this blog) regarding attitudes toward height. It doesn’t bother me so much that they express an irrational preference for tall men. (We all have irrational preferences.) It really irritates me that so many women try to rationalize their preference by vilifying short men.”

      Marika always asks me why I post comments related to male height if it I am not affected. Well, to be completely honest being tall enough is the male equivalent of being busty enough. I am certain that women do not like men commenting on their bust size all of the time. In fact, women believe that it is taboo (or at least tacky) for men to talk about bust size. Yet talking about and putting emphasis on male height is considered to be socially acceptable to women, which is messed up because bust size and male height are both primal triggers. I am certain that busty women who are with men who comment on their bust size wonder if they would be as desirable if they wore a smaller cup size. How do you think taller than average men feel? A taller than average man is thinking at which height would I be less desirable? In my case, I am a guy who only has an a little over an inch and half (182cm to be exact) on the minimum desirable male height of 5’10”. If a C is the minimum desirable cup for most men, then my height is the male height equivalent of a woman being a small D-cup (with 6’0″ being a solid D-cup). How many women would be okay with being overlooked for being less than natural C-cup at a non-overweight weight?

      Hopefully, the women reading this blog will finally get it after reading this analogy; however, I am not holding my breath. Just as their needs to be men who are happy with women who are less than a natural C, there needs women who are happy with men who are less than 5’10”. There are very few in-shape women who are a natural C or larger. Most of the women who are natural C or larger are overweight (finding a natural C or larger in Hollywood is almost like finding a unicorn 🙂 ).

      1. 18.2.1
        PacNW Smile

        Hmm, I think a closer analogy to male height would be women’s age. Both men and women have choices to filter in height and age, and they both are filtering out great candidates for superficial reasons. 
        Bust size is so subjective; most men I have talked to about it don’t have a size preference, they just like “nice breasts.” Which means something different to every man. And I’ve dated LOTS of men, so I have a large sample size 😉 I happen to be one of those women with large breasts on a small frame, and some of the men I’ve dated didn’t even care about them, which was a big surprise to me; they approached me because they were attracted to my face or waist/hip ratio or other attributes. Of course, some said my breasts were at the top of their list, but for some guys, they didn’t make the list at all. I just don’t think breast size is as big of a deal to men in the real world of dating as you are making it out to be. My small-breasted friends would agree. Breast size is a big deal in our sexualized society where sex and women’s bodies are used to sell everything, but when we are actually one-on-one, it is not. My friends with small breasts have learned it is a bigger liability IN THEIR MIND, than in real life. Because THEY don’t see themselves as sexy, even if to every man in the room, they ARE. Which is what I’m hearing from the women in the comments regarding men’s height: it IS a big deal in our looks and money obsessed society that gives taller men an uptick in privilege, but when it comes down to one-on-one male/female relationships, it’s not that big a deal at all. Just as men may SAY they want someone with a banging body and women may SAY they want tall, dark and handsome, the reality is we date who we meet in the real world and who we click with for lots of reasons, not just one physical attribute.
         When we’re talking about filtering out for men’s height on dating sites, I think the more appropriate analogy would be women’s age. As we’ve learned on this blog, women are filtered out for age more brutally than men are: many 40+ men don’t even choose to date women their own age due to some pre-conceived notion of what women look like upwards of 40 that doesn’t even apply anymore in the real world. Yes, the vast majority of us don’t look as good as Hugh Jackman, Halle Berry, or Jennifer Lopez do at the same age, but the fact that they exist means it is POSSIBLE that hot people our age are out there and that some of us just didn’t hit a wall at 40 and fall apart. I certainly didn’t. I’m in my late 40’s and I look amazing. My mother was hot till 65-ish. But there are guys my age out there who I would be perfect for who will never see me online because of their choice to filter me out.
         Similar to the hot short guys who are out there. There could very well be a hot, funny, smart, caring short guy with a great body out there who will rock my world in bed, but how will I know if I just decide that under 5”6 means they won’t be hot or “my type.” Mark Wahlberg is 47, short, and smokin hot so it is POSSIBLE. He can’t be the only one.
         A lot of women will not date their same height, only taller. A lot of men will not date their same age, only younger. We don’t want to be judged for something we can’t change, yet we are judging others in the same way.

        1. Emily, the original

          PacNW Smile,

          My friends with small breasts have learned it is a bigger liability IN THEIR MIND, than in real life. Because THEY don’t see themselves as sexy, even if to every man in the room, they ARE.

          I think some men are extremely picky about how women look, which has more to do with them than the women themselves. But as a general rule, I don’t think most men are that picky and women are a lot harder on themselves.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @PacNWSmile

          You are comparing apples to oranges.  Age is not primal trigger.  In fact, age in the abstract has little to do with the reason why older men chase younger women.  Breeding health causes men to trigger on women, and younger women generally exhibit better breeding health than older women (i.e., a younger woman’s breasts do usually not sag and her waist size is usually at least 30% smaller than her hip size).  You do not see older men chasing after overweight young women with big bellies.

          Male height and female bust size are primal triggers, so are female hip-to-waist ratio and male ranking within a social hierarchy (i.e., status).   Primal triggers are what drive men and women to couple because attraction and chemistry are primal.  I can assure you that men discriminate based bust size.  While they will settle for women with a different bust size, women will also settle for less height than they desire.  However, it is still settling.

          Your sample size may be large for you, but it is small when compared to the population.  The majority of men prefer a woman with a larger bust size; otherwise, women would not seek augmentation.   Bust size is a primal visual cue for being able to nurse.

      2. 18.2.2
        Marika

        PacNWSmile made some really good points, and…further.. since when is talking about breast size taboo or off limits?? I know plenty of guys who talk about breasts and stare at cleavage like it’s an eclipse. I actually took it as granted that breasts were a big selling point.

        I really think it’s not a great analogy, as if a guy wanted big breasts I would understand why he wouldn’t choose me. It wouldn’t bother me AT ALL. It would be like if he preferred brunettes. I’d shrug and move on. I’m thin, and like most thin chicks, mine aren’t huge. They are perky, though, and won’t be sagging anytime soon, so that’s enough for me ☺

        Like Smile said, women get flushed out by superficial men for silly things they can’t control just like men do. That’s just the way it is. It still doesn’t make sense to me why you’re so super sensitive about this one issue.

        1. Emily, the original

          Marika, 

          I’m thin, and like most thin chicks, mine aren’t huge

          I’ve only know one man who was a self-professed breast man. Most men don’t care and aren’t piecing women apart like they are buying a car. If you’re reasonably attractive and put yourself together — hair, makeup, decent outfit –you’re in, despite what you may read on some posts on this site.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          You would be surprised by what guys say behind closed doors with other guys that they do not say in front of women.  It is just that men are more willing to settle for less than they want than woman because what they really want  is sex, and women are the gatekeepers to sex.  If men were as selective as women,  there would be very little in the way of coupling.

          I would love to run this preference as an experiment.   However, dating sites are not going to ask women to list the male primal triggers any time soon.  However, men are asked to list every female primal trigger on Match.  How many man have complained about women asking them what they do for a living and how much they earn? Accept it or not, that information is not just small talk.  It is a female primal trigger, a breeding partner fitness test.   I would love to see what would happen if women were required to list their band/cup size, body measurements, and weight.   I guarantee that men would complain about women fudging numbers just like women complain about men fudging height, income, and educational attainment level.

  19. 19
    Marika

    Heya Emily

    I’m surprised about the guy & breast thing…I thought they were all suckers for a nice big rack! I can’t blame them, sometimes a big cleavage will go past and even I turn my head 😁 I must be a breast woman haha.

    I do agree about the other point. I didn’t even notice my ex husband’s physical ‘flaws’ until they were pointed out. And even then, I didn’t do some mental calculation of my smv vs his to 1 standard deviation..etc. People in the real world don’t act that way. Thank goodness! I actually question the wisdom of getting women to stop thinking about height by talking about it incessantly. A short guy’s best bet is to act like it’s a non issue and feel sorry for the women who don’t get it. ..Or adopt a BDE swagger; )

    1. 19.1
      Emily, the original

      Hi Marika,
      I’m surprised about the guy & breast thing
       I had a lot of guy friends at my last job and used to talk to them about the women at work they found attractive. I was surprised. They ranged from the most attractive on down to the very average, sometimes from the same man.  I think men who genuinely like women as people and aren’t using them as a status barometer aren’t going out there looking, at you wrote, for all this SMV bullshit and standard deviation and science experiments. At least I hope so.  I ‘m hoping there are people out there who aren’t so damn clinical.

       A short guy’s best bet is to act like it’s a non issue and feel sorry for the women who don’t get it. ..Or adopt a BDE swagger; )

      Or get a personality. I was watching Steve Harvey the other day. He said he wasn’t the kind of man who walked into a room and all the women noticed. But he’s funny as shit.

  20. 20
    Karl R

    Yet Another Guy,

    Your diatribe about primal triggers is heavily skewed by your own confirmation bias.

     

    Example 1: (#18.2.1.2)

    “Age is not primal trigger.  In fact, age in the abstract has little to do with the reason why older men chase younger women.  Breeding health causes men to trigger on women, and younger women generally exhibit better breeding health than older women.”

    That’s a load of horseshit.  If I want to determine how many healthy eggs remain in a woman’s ovaries, age is going to overwhelmingly be the best predictor.  (I did the research during a debate in a previous thread.  It’s the one about women in their 30s not wanting to date men in their 40s.)

    Now, since you’re engaging in confirmation bias, let me guess what  you’re going to say next.  Let me find my Great Carnac hat … pretend to meditate … and….

    You’re going to point out that you were talking about “primal triggers.”  Things that people have understood for millennia, not things that were recent medical discoveries.

    Go read Genesis, chapter 17.  Abraham is telling the angel that his wife, Sarah, can’t bear children because she’s 90 years old.  He doesn’t say that her boobs are sagging (regardless of whether they were).  He clearly understood that age equals infertility.  (And even if you believe Genesis 17 is fiction, it still indicates that the author understood the connection between age and infertility.)

     

    Example 2: (#18.2.2.2)

    “How many man have complained about women asking them what they do for a living and how much they earn? Accept it or not, that information is not just small talk.  It is a female primal trigger, a breeding partner fitness test.”

    So … my income (expressed in numbers) is supposed to be a “primal trigger.”

    Primal.

    So, even if we just look at money (in coins, its most tangible form), we’re already about 1,000 years after Abraham was saying Sarah was too old to reproduce.  If we want to look at more intangible forms of currency (like banknotes and bills of trade), then we’re moving another 1,000 years or so closer to the present.

    Not.  Very.  Primal.

     

    Example 3:

    YAG, how many hunting pictures did you have posted on your most recent online profile?  I’m guessing you had none?  (Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.  I’m really just guessing here.)

    Why would you avoid posting hunting photos on your profile?  Is it possibly because it’s not very effective for attracting women?

    If women are influenced by primal triggers, why wouldn’t they flock to men posting hunting photos?  Short of bringing the haunch of a dead animal along on a first date (which you’re also welcome to test out for efficacy), I can think of nothing better to proclaim a man’s literal, visceral ability to “put meat on the table.”

    Humans have been hunting for meat for millions of years.  Fresh, bloody meat should trigger women’s primal responses far better than those recent, symbolic representations of currency.

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