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I am engaged to a guy who I have been dating for 4.5 years. I love him but I have so much anger and resentment towards him. He is a good person and we have a great time together and I enjoy his company/companionship. He always is happy to see me and be with me. We have a lot in common, but I feel we have some major core differences. He is extremely selfish. He is wealthy and I think this has affected his outlook on money. I am very generous with a big heart, but I find that I am always disappointed. I don’t expect to be spoiled by someone, but he spends a lot of money on his (our) house, cars, gambling when he can, but if I need $200 to go to the store, he makes me feel awkward and here we are supposed to be getting married in December. All our finances are separate, I would be fine even with a pre-nup which I know is coming, but I am not fine with having a husband who puts himself that far above me because of his money. I do expect my husband to help with car payments, medical insurance, basic stuff, I am not even talking about shopping and material things, and this is a guy who is a multi-millionaire, and I made $100k up until last year because of the economy and now until I do something else, am only making about 45k. I am worried about marrying someone who would watch me struggle and not offer to help or was that spoiled that he doesn’t have the “right” consideration for me. HELP!
Lara
You know what they say about rich guys, right? The reason they’re rich is because they don’t spend any of their money
Dear Lara,
You know what they say about rich guys, right? The reason they’re rich is because they don’t spend any of their money! Ha! I kill me.
So first of all, let’s get one thing out of the way first: he’s definitely selfish. There are plenty of people who have issues around money – including yours truly – but your multi-millionaire takes the very expensive wedding cake.
As I’ve said before, many women don’t appreciate the difference between being cheap and being poor. If he makes less than $50,000, pretty much ANYTHING he does for you is generous. However, your guy isn’t poor. He’s rich, and yet you don’t feel he is generous of spirit. That really sucks when you’re facing a lifetime together.
But if you’ve been seeing him for 4 ½ years, I suspect you knew about this trait all along, but dealt with it as just one compromise you had to make in the relationship. It didn’t suddenly surface out of the blue. “He USED to throw me $10,000 birthday parties, but now he only has the Pizza Hut staff put a candle in my calzone!”
I’m not going to defend his penurious ways, and I’m not going to suggest that you don’t have the right to be frustrated. I am, however, going to try to look at the other side – something that you may not have done yet.
So let’s recap: you love him, he’s a good person, he’s super-wealthy, you have a lot in common, you have a great time together, he’s happy to be with you, and you’re engaged to be married in December. Sounds like a promising start, no?
But there’s this one thing – this big thing – you don’t get out of him. It’s a definite character flaw: no generosity. Yet he probably pays for the bulk of the house, car payments, medical payments, vacations, etc. He’ll buy you things and provide a nice life. The only thing he doesn’t want to pay for is you, spending the money that he earned. And since you’re now making less, you expect him to make up the difference.
At least that’s HIS perspective.
I think two things: he’s genuinely cheap, and he genuinely loves you.
Your perspective is that it’s not his money, it’s your money – together. And even though you have everything you want in your life, you can’t get over the fact that he’s so stingy that he won’t let you spend what he considers “his” money. In your mind, it’s not about the money, it’s about the principle! I hear you, and I’m sure a number of readers do, too.
The real sticking point is that his take on “his money vs. your money” is not changing any time soon. It’s deeply ingrained in him. Which gives you two choices: leave him because you feel like you can’t spend your life with a rich man who is cheap, or stick around and appreciate that you have a super life, filled with love, companionship, fun, and tons of material possessions – but your husband is simply a skinflint.
Life is about tradeoffs, y’know?
I also think you may be equating his lack of generosity with a lack of love. He can provide for you in 100 different ways, but because he’s hesitant to give you $200 to go to the store, he doesn’t truly love you. Do you believe that? I don’t. I think two things: he’s genuinely cheap, and he genuinely loves you. If he didn’t love you, he wouldn’t be marrying you. In his mind, he just doesn’t want his wealth to be taken for granted.
Just the other day I was talking with a semi-successful guy – not a millionaire – who took care of his girlfriend when she was unemployed and couldn’t afford to pay rent. The problem arose when, one year later, she STILL didn’t want to pay rent because “he could afford it”. Ironically, the same way that she feels that “it’s not about money, it’s about principle”, so does he. You think he should pay for you because he can. He doesn’t want to pay for you because you assume he’s supposed to.
Another thing: your boyfriend may be cheap, but I’d have to guess he’s better than the rich guys who equate money with love. Their theory is: “If I buy you a Jaguar, maybe you won’t notice how emotionally distant and abusive I am!” These type of wealthy men make the worst husbands because they think that they can buy your affection and don’t have to actually, y’know, listen to you.
All of this begs the unfortunate and delicate question: is it possible that you take your boyfriend’s money for granted? Maybe just a little? After all, you may have taken a pay cut, but you probably still live in a big house with a nice car and have everything you need. So while I’m not going to defend your fiancées behavior – cheap is not cool – I’d have to ask you one really tough question:
Would you be marrying him if HE made $45,000?
And, if not, are you also equating love with money?
It’s not that I’m not sympathetic to your plight, Lara, but it’s my responsibility to point out the side of things that you may not have already considered. Please let me know what you choose to do.
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Mr_Right says
It kind of makes me wonder if there’s been a conversation between the two of them about this issue, or has she let this fester and ferment all these years.
If nothing is said, how would he know anything is wrong?
Mikko Kemppe says
I agree with Mr. Right. I think there is not enough information given by her to make a proper judgment in this case. This issue could be a simply misunderstanding in her part in interpreting his actions or that he really just does care about himself, or a little bit of both.
It would be helpful if she would give an example of their communication together.
In either case what makes this worse is her feelings of resentment and anger because as long as those feelings are clouding her judgment no matter how she will approach the situation she is most likely going to end up feeling like he is just selfish further validating her beliefs, which may be erroneous from the begin with.
.-= Mikko Kemppe´s last blog ..Feeling Guilty For Making a Mistake? Feeling Used or Unworthy of Love? =-.
Mrs. Wife says
Why is it that when women assert themselves they are “angry and resentful” but when a man asserts himself it is because they are “powerful.” Give me a break. I appreciate the comment but literally NOT ONE WOMAN I KNOW would get fuzzy feelings when they are told they are with someone because of money. As a matter of fact that is the very least of it.
Karl R says
Mrs. Wife asked:
“Why is it that when women assert themselves they are ‘angry and resentful’?”
Lara said: (original letter)
“I love him but I have so much anger and resentment towards him.”
Perhaps because Lara actually said that she had anger and resentment toward her fiancee.
Are you suggesting that Lara doesn’t know how she feels?
Mrs. Wife says
In my case I will be leaving him because his cheapness is endangering my health and well being. My cheap husband was occasionally turning off the heat and I live in a cold state. Not anymore. I stood up for my rights. It is a pain in the a#$ to have to buy things only at a certain time. I don’t get anymore than anyone else, it just appears so because I get anything at all and most people spend everything they have. Then because I got something, it may be like “OH, what a spoiled b*(^&. I waited 5 or years of saving to get some things.
All I’m saying is that women are judged more harshly than men, in light of the same accomplishments. They make people jealous when they are educated and good looking and judged as being stupid if they are even somewhat attractive. I personally feel like the woman has just as much responsibility as the man in the way of earning money and housekeeping, but my man is cheap. I will be moving on because of this. Lucky I own my car and my medical sucks, so I’ll be finding a job with medical I hope. Live in a rural area, married, and before that married and moving around the country w/ husband. But, always managed to find full time employment everywhere but Cali and Connecticut, two of the roughest states I’ve ever seen. People are moving out in droves. You just can’t depend on a husband nowadays. I learned this long ago, thus I have only been able to get a string of retail jobs due to my location and being with him.
I am so tired of making something of myself to earn a decent living and being put down by my husband’s sister, who is jealous of me. It’s fricking ridiculous. I take college classes, earned my degrees, got accepted to a nursing school, and had to quit due to exhaustion. I have definitely had it. People need to be accepting that their friends may be married and that the young wife needs a job b/c of the husbands cheapness. I am in the same boat. My husband makes good money from home, but only when he has a contract. when he is not working outside at this farm, he is working inside at his computer. Meanwhile I work just as hard as he does with nursing school and I have no support whatsoever. now that I had to quit due to exhaustion I am f&*^$%. The girls in nursing school were less than respectable pieces of work and put me down every day for being thin and attractive and smart, unlike them.
This woman probably wrote this here because her fiance is unattentive to her feelings and belittled for bringing to light to him that she has needs. Thus, its an healthy outlet for that. It is not her fault he is frugal and she needs to either find another job or move on. She’s not married yet ! Then, It may be too late.
Crystal Morrow says
Wow, thank you. Jesus I thought these were only computers responding to the comments. That entire situation sounds like a bunch of bullshit & im not about to put frosting on anything.. oh. My . God. Poor lady probably is reading all these condescending comments and she’s feeling like a dumbass bitch. Guess what? Your not! One million percent, bottom line, you deserve & will with no doubt find another who will appreciate & cherish you for who you are ‘ what you make financially & knowlingly want to support you if that’s that man you desire. Don’t move forward with this man. It will only get worse, you may truly love him but they can be very selfish..
Robyn says
Major red flags here, folks.
Yes, he spends money on the house and cars and gambling – but those are his “pet things” and projects/activities.
Note that when it comes to something that she wants which is just for herself, one of her “pet things” or activities, he won’t part with a dime. Hello, Houston, we have a problem here…. This is a huge signal/message that it is all about him and, when push comes to shove, her individual needs are very much secondary.
By the way – has the pre-nup been discussed yet????
If not, better have that discussion ASAP. Because then you will see the true and complete picture re: his attitude to money and what he will or won’t share.
Me says
You got it right, Robyn! After marriage it will only get worse. If he doesn’t love me enough to care for me why should I even think about marrying him?
Isabel says
I’d be interested in learning more about the “cheap” behaviors—
When SK and her finacee go out for dinner, does he pay most of the time? Or do they split the bill? Does he pay for vacations? Air tickets? Buying you a small gift on your birthday? I think if he does those things frequently, and he’s also bought a house that you both live in now, then his behaviors are understandable.
I don’t think it’s fair to require him to pay for your car payments, give you money to a bookstore or buy expensive clothes and purses…
Doug says
I agree – why does Lara need $200 to go to the store? What is she buying? Is it the weekly grocery shopping, or is she spending on herself? Sounds like the latter to me. And if it’s the former, then this is one more thing that he is paying for.
I’d be curious to know what Lara pays for in the relationship… anything? Just because he’s rich, why should he have to take one his fiance` as a dependent, if she’s capable of earning her own money.
PTE00 says
She works? she needs to buy her own stuff, for her hobbies, just like he/s buying his own stuff for his hobbies, why do women feel entitled to a mans resources? what the hell?!!
Sam says
Interesting letter and great comments Evan.
I’m a $50,000 a year guy and girlfriends have called me cheap too, yet I always feel that I am misunderstood. Yes, I have a reluctance to spend more than $35 on a dinner, I hate spending $10 on a cocktail, and flying to the other coast for a weekend seems extravagant to me, but it’s not like I’m spending the money on myself. My personal spending is limited and all my savings will one day benefit my wife and me in the form of a smaller mortgage, cash purchases for our cars, summer camp for the kids etc.
Maybe some people will still consider me cheap, but I just consider what I’m doing to be deferred spending.
Robyn says
If your girlfriend is not your fiance (future wife) then your saying to her “I’m saving for my future wife and kids” is not exactly heart-warming. It almost verges on a slap in the face.
Selena says
I’m all for deferred spending, but doubt I’d be interested in a guy too cheap to spring for a cocktail.
I’m curious, what kind of dates do you create?
Do you explain to the women your deferred spending plan and the reason for it?
Jasmin says
My boyfriend does exactly this: explains that he saves all his life in order to buy an apartment and “I’m not a restaurant guy. There’s a lot of food at home, and I can cook for you”.
I work a lot and my financial situation is a lot worse then his. He quit his job recently, doesn’t work and planning not to work for a year. He says he’s tired. On my question how he’d be able not to work he answered that he’d spend a little from his savings. He expects us to go dutch all the time, and we only drink beer in bars or eat something really cheap.
He’s a good guy and speaks about the future and family, but this aspect of his character not only not sexy but also frightens me. Future with him frightens me.
Jas says
it’s so weird we know that it frustrates, we don’t like it, but we are still with them… I ask this question to myself all the time and than I am like… would’ve he stayed with me if I would openly and obviously make him to feel like that and just bluntly tell what my intentions are ( meaning it’s kind of I’m being selfish) and expect him just accept it and leave it… I don’t think any man would accept any discomfort that would come from their woman for longer than couple of months or in rare, rare cases… couple of years.
a says
The basic problem is to assume than men have to pay for girls. You are equal than men right? I wouldn’t pay every meal of my friends, and if my friend want to go dinner in expensive restaurants can go by himself and waste all the money he earned.
Double standars in your head.
I bet, a women will dump 100 times, a man who earn less than her, and if he asks for $200 to go shopping.
“I don’t see what is he putting in the table” Modern western women are crap. Fortunately there are only 350 million in all the planet (yes, canada, USA, UK, AUS, and 2 countries in europe)
Too much entitlement.
Crystal Morrow says
ummmmm, disaster.
leave this guy asap it’s not funny he’s obviously using you. Sorry you don’t see that. A real man would never let his woman support him. I mean if your confused, a real man would never let His woman support him unless they have been married for years & years & years…:
juan says
Iagree with you I am in the same money bracket as you.
Jen says
I know how she feels. It’s a feeling that won’t go away. Maybe life isn’t fair? I’m dating a multimillionaire. He doesn’t have to work, lives in a beautiful home, drives fancy cars and can afford to pay cash for his children’s education. I on the other hand work my butt off, raise three kids on my own, going to school and can’t afford to pay my rent and half the time fees my kids.
Sam says
Does he offer you money to help with your household?
bob says
These same girls that call you cheap spend less paying for dinners/dates than you so really the woman are the cheap ones.. Just laugh at them when they say youre cheap.
Frank says
Unfortunately American society has screwed most women these days (and men) into consumerism. Always make the test what a woman thinks she is entitled to. 10usd cocktails? 50 usd dinner? Does she picks up the bill every second time? Does she want a big car and not a “cheap” one? If so, dump her, you are better off alone. Safe the money and start your early retirement account.
Jas says
Looks like men these days forgot what being man really means… The real, loving, caring man would never make his woman (girl, fiancé or wife) feel the way Lara does, or the rest of the woman who ever feel this way or question their relationships because of these issues.
You know why? Because that man who uses that woman’s heart and body, especially those who promise a big future together, true commitment and even give rings and set up wedding date… will just do anything and everything for their loved ones in their own budget limits of course and the woman who would feel that the man cares about her as much as he cares about himself will never have to second guess, doubt or question… We love our kids right so, so, so much… that is a true an unconditional love… so when they need something and we only have let’s say $ 20.00 and need a pair of pants or skirt or whatever for ourselves so desperately… what would we do? The answer is simple… we just sacrifice… we take care of the needs of those who are the dearest to our hearts right? So if the man loves his partner unconditionally… believe me… there won’t be any spots left to be questioned, because he will not leave any spaces empty and if anything he will be there to understand and to take care of ( again… as much as he can, depending on his earnings and savings.
And a simple advise to those who count pennies at the restaurants when they are out with a woman… If you are REALLY SAVING for your future than please sit home with your pets, cook and please yourselves… because if you won’t another human being to please you and even pay for your meals at the restaurants than when it is your turn to pay make sure you have enough before you AS A MAN take a woman out to date and before you relieve that yes, you are being cheap. If you are good for you… save and be cheap and spend only on yourself, but remember… YOU MUST be by yourself and not get offended if a woman calls you a CHEAP after witnessing your cheap actions while you are out with her…
Crystal Morrow says
Frank,
yes, you don’t want a woman who thinks she should entitled to things definitely not. What the issue is here is that a woman that loves a man feels like since she only makes 45k when her partner makes 4 times as much doesn’t help out as much as he could. If they have been dating over 4 years yes they should’ve talked about this issue and financial situations at hand. It’s difficult to understand as a man this situation if the female makes 45k & the man makes 3-4 times as much in my situation I spend money one food, cooking all meals stocking shelves, fridge etc. any house hold goods maybe $400 & more on groceries & house hold items a month that’s needed. While cooking & cleaning & running my own business doing facials making only on average $2500 a month if lucky only been in business one year… but it’s okay for me to do laundry, walk dogs, clean the hous, cook all meals, work on my business & more for my bf who makes over $100 k a year & cant ” afford to take me on vacation??” Guess your not in a serious relationship
Jennifer says
We all know that money is fraught with all types of emotions and feelings, some practical and rational and most not. He is not going to change on this point any time soon. If you can’t see yourself being happy with this guy when he is *exactly* the same with money 10 years from now, don’t get married. If the prospect of losing you makes him want to consider trying to make changes, cool. If the prospect of losing him makes you want to consider trying to make changes, cool. But attitudes about money (or anything really) are very hard to change unless people truly feel driven to, and nothing will improve between the two of you unless someone changes.
Life is too long to live with your teeth set on edge. Whatever you do, make sure you don’t put yourself in a situation where you have to learn that the hard way.
Kay says
Completely agreed, Jennifer.
HopeInLove says
I completely agree with you Jennifer. I married a man who has the same attitude about money and it only got extremely worse when we got married; the issue of stinginess became exposed in the light of marriage because marriage is a sacred institution of unity, oneness, sacrifice, and wanting the best for each other AND stinginess is its complete opposite. Soundness is not accomplished with a stingy spouse unless that spouse genuinely desires and DECIDES to change.
Simone says
I don’t know whether this guy is selfish or not with his money, but one thing stood out to me, and really pissed me off: “…I do expect my husband to help with car payments, medical insurance, basic stuff, I am not even talking about shopping and material things…” (as if those material things were normal expectations, too!
Girl, we are living in the 21st century, and unless you are willing to do his laundry, make his bed, cook his meals, clean his house, bring him his slippers, and be his “woman”, what right do you have to expect anything but what you’ve already said he gives you? You’ve specifically stated that he treats you well, covers housing and car costs for both of you, is a good person and always is happy to see you and be with you…sheesh! What more do you really think you have a “right” to?!
How are we women supposed to truly break through that last mile of inequality in the workplace, when people like you are holding on to decades of antiquated thinking and feminine entitlement?
THINK EQUALITY.
Steve says
Simone;
Next time you are in Washington D.C. I am buying you dinner!
vino says
Simone, I agree with most of what you say, bu I don’t see the workplace inequality point. Ava below mentioned the 72 cents vs. 1 buck for men.
I’m not trying to argue with either of you, but if the inequality mentioned is the same as Ava’s 72 cents point, the facts indicate you are not accurate. There have been several studies that debunk this myth (see Warren Farrell, or google the topic). The reality is that women do get paid for the same work as men and in some places (NYC, for example) actually get a bit more.
The differences occur in the choices that women make in the workplace that account for the difference. For example, well-paying dangerous occupations (think oil rig in the Gulf of Mex) are almost entirely men. Women often choose to leave the workforce to have children, often returning only part-time or in lower paying lower stress jobs.
Sure there is a difference in pay, but not due to some discrimination. It’s actually due to the choices women themselves make in the marketplace. If the facts indicated otherwise, my analysis would be different, but I try to let the known facts lead my conclusions, not just what I’ve heard.
Michael says
If female labor costs 28% less than male labor, there would be almost no male labor.
vino says
Exactly
Nisha says
Michael, I call B.S. on this. Workplace diversity initiatives, hiring within “networks”, men possibly majoring in different fields than women (more math, business, and science), and many other factors contribute to the gender make up of many businesses. It doesn’t always boil down to hard economics.
bob says
Nisha you make no sense at all. You’re comparing what men and women make in different fields/jobs. That makes no sense at all. If you want true equality you compare how much someone makes by job. Who cares if men are in more science and math jobs that was their choice. If women dont pick those professions then oh well. But the same job there isnt a 28% gap. You arent going to get paid 100k to be an art teacher sorry…
TravelingBlush says
this research has been prov3n wrong. the inequalit arises because women tend to take less demanding jobs that lets her be flexible with her time and how she accomplishes work. Look into research by Claudia Goldin.
Adam says
Totally Simone, I completely agree. I strongly believe that women should go to college, get great jobs and / or start their OWN businesses and have their OWN shopping money. And NOT be dependent upon some man. Nothing wrong with being in a loving, healthy relationship, but by all means ladies have your OWN money.
Lysel says
Adam I understand. No money, no sex. NOT WORTH GIVING OUR PRECIOUS VAGINA without getting anything we want and that’s how precious it is….like…very precious…..U can’tell blame women for having a lil dignity
Adam says
Lysel,
There is a word for women who trade money and gifts for sex. That word is whore.
Lysel says
Adam: shallow understanding.
AllHeart81 says
Adam, why would you call a woman a name because sex was traded for gifts and money? What is the logic behind it?
What names should we call men when they trade money for beauty and youth?
“Whore” is simply a word used to shame women. It has absolutely no validity to who a woman is just because she trades sex for money. It’s a word that’s primarily meant to make women feel bad for no reason at all just so others can retain control over her choices to shame her and call her names.
Adam says
AllHeart81:
You make a good point. Perhaps I was a little too harsh in using the word “whore.”
Honestly, I don’t care what a woman does with her own body. I certainly don’t care who or why she has sex with someone. What a woman does with her own body, provided she isn’t harming someone else, is her business.
If she wants to have sex with a man who is rich in exchange for money and both parties are aware of and OK with this transaction this doesn’t mean that she is the same as a whore standing on the corner.
Now having said all that, I believe in honesty. I am a fan of Alan Roger Currie, a relationship coach for men who recommends, among other things, that men are completely honest and upfront with women. He recommends that men not engage in all these stupid head games. If a man, really and truly is just interested in having casual sex with a woman, he should be completely upfront about this point. He shouldn’t hide this fact whatsoever. He shouldn’t pretend he wants to marry her or be in a relationship with her. And if that is what she wants, if she just wants a casual sex partner, well fine. If she doesn’t, that is fine also. It is HER choice.
I feel the same way when it comes to women. I don’t care if she is looking for some guy to pay her bills in exchange for sex. Just don’t pretend to be in love with the guy. Don’t tell him you love him or want a future with him if you don’t. If it is all about money, if it is all about him funding you and / or buying gifts for you, fine. Totally OK. Years ago, at a seminar for small businesses I met a truly stunning woman. Easily one of the top 20 hottest women I have ever met. And she was involved in this game. But she was honest about this fact with me and the men who were involved with her. So, who cares.
Jo says
Jo says
sorry I shouldn’t have said that what I mean is the men I have encountered are older and to me they are less thoughtful I’m paying for everything I don’t think it’s cool ! Sorry if I offended anyone out there ! This site is to help people not turn people against eachother
Adam says
Jo,
You didn’t offend me. It is all cool. Men should definitely treasure their women. Without a doubt. I think we might be talking about apples and oranges. There is nothing wrong with a man showing a woman he loves her by taking her out to shows, driving her to nice restaurants, buying her flowers, etc. Women deserve to feel they are loved and treasured.
I just don’t believe in excessive giving. That is all. I wouldn’t buy a girlfriend a new car or a new house or pay her rent or something similar. That is my point. Yeah, show her you love her. But if you are paying her rent, buying her a new car or carrying out some other similar grand gesture, in the hope that she will have sex with you, you are wasting your money and time. If a woman truly loves you, she won’t require you to spend tons of money on her in exchange for affection.
One of my friends, years ago, was dating a girl who initially seemed like a very nice person. They started going out and went out for a while. Everything seemed to be progressing normally and she seemed to really like him. I was happy for them. Then one day they are in the back of his car after a romantic date and she starts demanding money from him to pay her rent. And she lived in LA, where rent for a one bedroom apartment can easily run $1500 – $2000. Later we found out that she never cared him at all, it was all about how she wanted her rent paid and thought he was rich (he wasn’t.) He dumped her.
I know of another guy who gave a woman several hundred dollars for the HOPE of a relationship with her. He had a huge crush on her and she was short that month. She shouldn’t have done this, but he was foolish for giving her the money. While it was technically a “loan,” who knows whether the money was paid back or not.
If a girl truly loves me, she is not going to expect or demand thousands of dollars in cash and gifts. If she is demanding these, in my book, we are in a transnational relationship.
violetblue says
This was my thought as well, especially considering she is still making 45k on a reduced salary. It might be tough to hear but it sounds to me like the OP is the one with money issues not the man…and perhaps he’s trying to point thus out but her perception is skewed. If he’s paying the majority of living costs already and she still needs grocery money where is that 45k being spent?
Mrs. Wife says
What you have so brightly neglected in your assessment Simone, is that marriage is a respected institution that once you are in you are entitled to position, money, and if your husband doesn’t care if you work, then Why would anyone else ???????????????????? Even wives can make a living if they want.
marcia says
I met my boyfriend while I was studying (20 years old, he 31 then), he insisted I should quit my studies to be with him as his work is more important and we lived in different countries. I tried to continue but he would always appear in my workplace while I was doing my internship and keep on begging and promising me beautiful life etc. I was really in love and said yes!! Now 5 years later he is really wealthy. I have been doing everything for him to be happy at home, taking care of his laundry, cook, clean, take care of his child etc. He would buy collection cars, yacht and spend money while he doesn’t give me anything, I can buy food and some skincare products, but not even go buy clothes in GAP when I need, only if I ask. I can not work as we are living between 4 countries and normal job just didn’t work out for me. I still love him but I think its unfair, he knows I don’t have family if I want to leave and I feel he is using the situation, He doesn’t want to get married either. I am probably very screwed.
Helen says
Like Simone, I think this woman is expecting far too much. She sounds like a gold-digger, frankly. So Evan, I’m not sure I’d be as certain as you are that the fiance has a character flaw of stinginess.
Dating Down Under says
Maybe, she thinks spending too much on “Gambling” is a bad idea and she may make better use of money herself if she gets that money from her man. It looks to me that she thinks she can spend her man’s money better!
JimmyE says
Has the OP ever been in a relationship with a man who earned significantly less then she did? If so, how was expenditure split?
A-L says
I’m with Simone on this one. You both contribute toward housing, cars, etc, but if you want to do some personal spending then use your own $200 that you’ve worked for. Especially since the two of you aren’t married yet. But get the prenup done and discuss how you plan to handle finances when you’re married. If you can live with it happily, go on and get married. If not, don’t.
Lin says
I think it’s a very bad idea to get married with someone with whom you can’t have an agreement, espacially over money. This things don’t change after marriage. If you cannot trust each other while you’re BF-GF end the relationship …
Carlos says
I’m sure if he were giving those 200 everytime ,you ll be finding other reason to complaint ,just because he’s millionaire you’ll feel it’s never giving you enough ,I think you should be gratefull and start being more proactive and make your own fortune ,and say hey here’s 200 so you go gambling that will give him so much good luck ,after all he’s paying all the basic’s ,I mean do you realize how ungrateful you are ,he s paying the basics…housing car payments etc…????
,and your still complaining ,Your either too good looking or make him very happy in bed ,but you have no clue life s not easy and a millionaire can loose it’s fortune If not
Carefully administrated.
Ava says
What EMK says about rich people getting rich because they don’t want to spend money has some basis in reality. The most common car driven by those with very high incomes isn’t a luxury car, it’s a Toyota Corolla. Multi-millionaires aside, the reality is that women still make something like 72 cents to every dollar that men make.
When the LW says she needs “$200 to go to the store” does she mean to go clothes shopping or grocery shopping? On the other hand, I don’t see anything wrong with expecting a wealthy spouse to help cover car payments for a jointly-owned car, or medical insurance, especially when the wife-to-be is struggling.
Have they considered having a joint account for things like household expenses? Maybe he contributes 80% to this account and she contributes 20%, or whatever?
Maybe a few sessions with a coupes therapist to sort out these issues prior to the wedding are in order?
Steve says
Ava;
That bit about Corollas is fascinating. Do you remember where you read it?
Sara says
Steve — What Ava says about Corollas is technically inaccurate. The most common type of car driven by millionaires in the United States is the Ford F150. You would probably be interested to read The Millionaire Next Door, which examines, from a sheer statistical perspective, characteristics of millionaires in the US. Here is a link to the book: http://www.amazon.com/Millionaire-Next-Door-Thomas-Stanley/dp/0671015206
Steve says
Sara;
Thanks for the link! That book looks fascinating. At this point in my life I think I am going to get more wealth though I never will be wealthy. I think I will still enjoy reading that book. I’m not cheap, but I strive to be frugal. The difference between the two is that a cheap person avoids spending money as an end in itself. A frugal person tries to minimize spending money on things s/he will not appreciate on a lasting basis.
Getting back to dating and the topic, I like to be frugal with other expenses in my life so I can go on more enjoyable dates. I view positive experiences with people as being one of the things that will make me feel like I have lived my life. I don’t think people need to go on balloon rides for every date to generate a happy memory, but many modest shared pleasures can’t take place if one’s finances are too tight from sloppy spending habits.
Based on what I read on the Amazon page I have similar attitudes about money to some of those rich people. I don’t consider my car to be who I am ( go Honda Civics! ) and I don’t like living at the edge ( or beyond ) my means. That makes me a bit of an odd ball among the people in my life so I think at the least I will enjoy that book for a feeling of validation 🙂
Sara says
I think you will still like the book. It’s a good personal finance book, and if anything, it’s anti-consumerism. Most of the characteristics of US millionaires are different that you might think. They tend to own their own businesses, have smaller houses, place emphasis on families, lead more frugal lives than you would expect – the type of people you don’t even realize have lots of money. They’re practical. Okay, this is way off topic so I’m going to stop now. I’m don’t want to come across as someone to whom lots of money is important (since I’m not at all that way), but I couldn’t be in a relationship with someone who wasn’t financially responsible or had lots of credit card debt or something like that, and as a single woman, my own personal finances are important to me since I don’t expect someone to take care of me 🙂
Ava says
Can’t remember for sure, Steve. But it have have been in the New York Times. The info was taken from a book called “The Millionaire Next Door”, Check out this link: http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-3139.html
JL says
“the reality is that women still make something like 72 cents to ever dollar that men make.”
*the reality is that this is because women take time off to have babies that men dont. Adjusted for seniority and experience, women’s salaries actually outperform those of similarly situated men.
Steve says
penurious
I have not seen that word since college. My writing and vocabulary is getting worse as I get older, so I really appreciate someone who writes well.
Steve says
Lara wrote
I am engaged to a guy who I have been dating for 4.5 years. I love him …
He is a good person and we have a great time together and I enjoy his company/companionship. He always is happy to see me and be with me. We have a lot in common
That is the LTR jackpot we all hope for and you have it. The only catch is that you as an adult have to be responsible for your own finances — which you would have to be responsible for anyway, whether or not you *had* that LTR jackpot.
Evan Wrote
I also think you may be equating his lack of generosity with a lack of love.
Bingo!
Evan Wrote
The real sticking point is that his take on his money vs. your money is not changing any time soon.
Tape that to your wall everybody.
Incompatible styles of handling money is one of the classic relationship busters and adults rarely change their money handling style. Expect religious conversions and late life circumcisions first.
Either you can live with his someone’s style of handling money or you can’t.
Selena says
“Either you can live with someone’s style of handling money or you can’t.”
Yep.
And after 4.5 yrs. she knows what his style is.
He’s not going to change it, so evaluate marriage to him accordingly.
Steve says
Useful thought experiment:
Reread Lara’s email to Evan, but imagine she is a man ( “Larry”? ) who is complaining about his wealthy fiance not being willing to give up more of her money to subsidize his finances.
Notice your reactions.
If you are a woman, imagine you are engaged to a man who is the love of your life, but he expects you to pay for things he *wants* ( not needs ) when his own income falls a bit short.
Notice your reactions.
It is the year 2009.
All adults, male or female, are expected to be responsible adults.
Unless of course you a member of the US government spending other people’s money 🙂
vino says
Hmmm lessee here.
Gems from the OP (in order they appeared).
“He is extremely selfish.”
“I am very generous with a big heart, but I find that I am always disappointed.”
– Notice the accusation (selfish) coupled with the unsubstantiated martyrdom (I’m generous). All I ask when I read this letter is WTF does she do that is generous in the slightest? Never hear a word of that though.
– Holy S*&t. She’s living in his house. Nice use of the ‘our’ in parens, though. We know where her mind is. I guess he’s selfish for allowing that too. Wonder what it’d cost for her to live comparably on her own dime… Oh that’s right, she can’t.
– Thing to remember is this is his fecking money. Not hers. He can spend it as he sees fit. And why is it that so often that guys with lots of $ who don’t want to give it away to women are ‘selfish’ yet women with money who won’t give it to guys are ‘prudent’ and ‘responsible’ with their finances? Hmmm
– I had an old uncle who once told me “Vino, always remember than when it comes to women the whole system is rigged so that you pay for it.” Sage advice.
– This dude should boot her out pronto.
Curly Girl says
Your uncle calls you Vino? I didn’t think that was your real name.
Karl R says
Lara said:
“if I need $200 to go to the store, he makes me feel awkward”
To echo the question that several people have asked: $200 to go to the store for what? Groceries? Clothes? Birthday presents for your best friend?
I’m guessing that he isn’t deliberately making you feel awkward just out of spite. He probably feels equally awkward when you’re asking him for money.
Let me reverse the situation and see if it makes sense. Let’s say you still have your $100k/yr job, and you’re engaged to a wonderful man who only earns $30k/yr. He’s reasonably responsible with his money, and he was able to support himself without assistance before you started dating.
Since you’re planning on getting married, your separate finances are about to become your joint finances, and that includes the spending he does just on himself. Maybe he likes to spend $500/month on comic books. Maybe he spends $400/month on fencing lessons. Maybe he likes expensive cigars. Suddenly you’re in a situation where he might be wasting your (collective) money on purchases that you would never make.
But I’m sure your situation is different, right? The hypothetical boyfriend doesn’t need comic books. You need shoes (or something similar). Shoes are a genuine necessity.
Try explaining to a man why you need to spend $100-$200 per month on new shoes … when he can wear the same $50 pair for two years. To us, your shoes (after the first couple pairs) seem as frivolous as comic books or fencing lessons.
For this reason, I think it’s sensible for couples to keep a certain amount of their money as separate personal funds. That way you only need to agree on how much you each get for personal use. After that you no longer need to worry about how your partner is spending his personal money, and he no longer needs to worry about how you’re spending spending your personal money. And your (collective) money can be spend on sensible items that you both benefit from.
Selena says
Amen Karl.
Agree. Everyone should have “personal money” they can spend without having to defend their choices.
Donna says
I’m sticking up for the guy on this one. Sounds to me like he needs the assurance that you are with him for who is is alone, not for what he can provide. You already live together and have a nice home, etc. Anybody with that much will probably always be insecure about it. He needs to know that you WOULD be with him if he made only $45K, which is why he doesn’t shell over money anytime you need it. I once dated a very wealthy man who was also my best friend. We dined in the nicest restaurants and traveled some, all paid for by him. But he would not buy me gifts, or very nominal ones, because he did not want it to be about the money. I thought that was very wise, because you know what? I would have gotten spoiled and expected it….
Meli says
I absolutely agree. I once dated a very wealthy guy too and he was the same as yours. In fact, when I first met him he would come to pick me up in an ugly little car, it was only after our fourth date that he came up with his brand-new convertible. My reaction was “Whoa. Who’s car is this?”.
He started to show his money litlle by little, as he got to know me. We ended up in a 9-month relationship in which he spoiled me taking me to the most amazing, expensive restaurants..and on trips all over the continent. But he never bought me anything in stores, it was all paid by me (jewelry, clothing, beauty products, etc), and despite I was just an intern at the time, I used to pay for some dates too (movies, dinners in cheap restaurants ). I never asked for money. He ended up falling in love with me because he felt I was with him for who he was, and wanted to marry me, to buy me the beach house of my dreams, he wanted me to quit my job and start my own NGO.. FUNNY THING IS, I left him because I wasn’t in love with him, and it doesn’t matter how good and luxurious the life he could provide me was..I could never marry someone I didn’t truly love.
hunter says
I am wondering what other women thought of your post.
Diana says
I also could not marry someone I truly didn’t love. I know that a lot of people view marriage as a business decision. But for all the dining and traveling, I think a simple, personal gift would have spoken volumes more. He was entertaining himself as well when he paid for the red carpet treatment. It’s nice that you showed him through your actions and not just words that you weren’t interested in his money. I haven’t been in such a situation, but I don’t think I’d feel comfortable dating a man with wealth.
Adam says
Meli,
Too bad things didn’t work out with the millionaire, but I have a HUGE amount of respect for you because you did break it off. That shows a very large amount of character and I have to salute you. You are truly a rare diamond and made the right decision.
Marrying men because they have a lot of money or a man marrying a woman simply because she is good looking are, unfortunately common mistakes. Both scenarios almost always end poorly.
I know a guy, an owner of an accounting business, who fell madly in love with a woman and ended up marrying her. She told him she loved him, seemed like the perfect wife and to all external appearances, they looked like the perfect couple. He puts her through college (easily cost $100k+) she finishes and gets a good job (because she doesn’t want to work for him, she wants to be independent and have her own career.) Of course, after that, she dumps him. It turned out that the whole “in love” thing was simply an act and it was all about getting his money to pay her way through college. That was the only reason she was with him.
Lin says
I also know men who date woman for money, it is not a womans thing …
Karmic Equation says
Adam,
The part you’re missing is that she was probably giving him lots of sex. Who knows what kind of kinks he was into that she may have tolerated, or perhaps even enjoyed.
Unless she married him and the forced him to live a celibate life, you cannot say he got nothing out of it.
Men get sex without commitment all the time.
Women get money for sex all the time. Sometimes with commitment even.
But money can’t buy love. And sex can’t buy love.
Would that both genders realize that 🙂
Adam says
Lin,
You are right, there are definitely male gold diggers. But trading money and resources for sex is an overwhelmingly female game. If you look at prostitution, stripping and other sex related jobs, the openings are overwhelmingly for females, there are, for example, male strippers, but those male strippers who strip for women exclusively are probably less than 5% of strippers.
Adam says
Karmic Equation:
More wise words from a wise woman 🙂
She was gorgeous, way out of his league and he was probably getting great sex from her. But you know Karmic, when it comes to me, when I get married, I want a woman who loves me. Yes I want regular sex, but I don’t want to be married just for the sex. If I simply wanted on-demand drama free sex for money, I would hire a sugar baby. There are tons and tons and tons of wannabe actresses and models running around LA that would be happy to sleep with me regularly for money. Tons. And they would cost far less than this girl ended up costing.
AllHeart81 says
Hi Adam. I think there are several reasons why there appears to be more women involved in working in the sex trade.
1. Men have historically enjoyed more economic freedom and women have resorted to selling their bodies because of lack of options since the dawn of time. While this clearly doesn’t apply as much anymore, it’s certainly set a foundation around the perception of women female sexuality is.
2. Men seem more willing to pay for sex than women seem willing to pay for sex.
So you could make the argument that these things are ‘women’s games’ but you could also look at it from the idea that these are ‘men games’. After all, if men were not so willing to pay for sex, there wouldn’t be a market or it. (Which is why there isn’t as much of a market for women buying sex.) It’s not because women are magically more greedy than men when it comes to money. I don’t know if that was the point you were trying to make but I don’t think it’s fair to say that sex related jobs are a ‘female game’. Actually, women selling their bodies for sex is really the “gentleman’s club”.
Adam says
Allheart81:
It is all very simple. Some women are forced into the sex trade and that is terrible and unbelievably awful. But the limited number of women that I have met that have been involved in porn, stripping and other aspects of the sex industry were not forced to do anything, were not desperate and made a conscious decision to enter their trade. If anything, they felt like they were getting the better end of the deal. They had to excerpt minimum effort and got tons of money.
The reason why men pay for sex is because, on average, the male sex drive is WAY, WAY beyond the female sex drive. Hate to be politically incorrect, but that is just the way it is. It can be very difficult to get women into bed for some guys and with so many women (surveys show up to 40%) willing to exchange sex for money, it is easier for some men to simply pay women and skip the drama and games. I have never done this, but I understand their point of view.
AllHeart81 says
Hi Adam – I would ask you to read up on facts and statistics about the sex trade and possibly re-read what I’ve said. Because I never said women were forced into the sex trade. This was not even on my mind.
Many women do choose to enter it, I agree! Usually it’s young women who do not understand the realities of what the sex trade really is. They tend to be desperate for money and idealistic about the opportunities. They are young and inexperienced going up against people who have way more experience than them. Most young women are only actually in the sex trade business 1-6 months before they are so emotionally and physically drained that they can’t do it anymore. (Prolapsed anuses, herpes in their eye and other awful medical conditions have become normal for women in the sex-trade.) Or, they are pushed out because those who run the sex trade see no use for them anymore. Usually in that time frame of a couple months, the young ladies are asked to do increasingly more hardcore sexual acts until there is no ‘new’ things for them to do anymore and the phone calls stop coming. Most women don’t infact make that much money in the business. The real people making money are those who actually run the business behind the scenes. Unfortunately, there is always more women who keep going through (and coming out) the revolving door. Have you actually ever talked to a stripper about her feelings about men? Strippers and those in the thick of it who see the worst behaviors in men (and yes, the sex-trade does highlight some of men’s worst behaviors), usually end up more negative and calloused feelings/opinions about men then those who aren’t in the sex trade.
Mitigating all these facts, the fact remains that women are not in the sex trade because they are more greedy about money than men. I feel this is a point you were attempting to make. Men are more willing to pay for sex, so women sell it to try and create opportunities for themselves because of it. Both men and women enjoy money. Women are not more ‘greedy’ around money.
The average male sex drive is way beyond the female sex drive? I would say that sometimes the average male sex drive *can* be ‘somewhat’ higher than the females *at times*. I do not think men are “WAY, WAY” more sexual creatures than women or that their sex drives are so over the top to women’s it explains the way male sexuality plays out in society. Men do enjoy social freedom to explore their sexuality and women still don’t completely today. Men enjoy so much freedom to explore their sexuality in our society that sometimes it’s comparable to all the fast-food joints that litter our society and make us over-weight. Our society does heavily operate in ways that support heterosexual male fantasies over anyone else – even heterosexual females. Since the dawn of time men have wanted to control female sexuality after all and that still exists. Women just aren’t given the same opportunities to explore their sexuality like men are.
Yes, it can be difficult to get a regular woman in bed. Because most women are not looking to be used just to get any one man off just so he feels happy. Women aren’t in it for quantity. They are looking for quality.
I also understand the point of view you present. But possibly from an equally politically incorrect line of thinking as you. The reason some men pay for sex is because they have not developed the skill set to see women as equal human beings with their own set of needs, desires and wishes. So they resort to what is ‘easy’ for them to get what they want from women instead of figuring out what they need to do to be as giving in a relationship as they wish their female partner to be. They have not developed the emotional intelligence that in important inequality based relationships. Equality based relationships requires you to think about the other person’s needs just as they should be thinking of you. You have to deal with another imperfect human being that won’t always want or do what you want her to do. Some men can’t deal with this. And some men today expect sex on demand because we live in a culture that has breed a fair amount of entitlement around sex and women. As if men are ‘owed’ these things. So when men don’t get them, sometimes they get angry. And other times they pay for it instead. Paying someone to do something for you is always easy! Instead of understanding that real women, with real needs, who are not being paid to cater to them are always going to be more difficult to relate to because they will always deserve the same opportunities men have been afforded in our society to pursue their own needs and desires within relationships. Just as real men, with their own real needs and desires, will always be more difficult to relate to than a man that is being paid to fulfill a woman’s fantasy about who she wishes men where.
fooboo says
Meli, sorry you had to waste your time with this stupid rich guy. Going back to Robyn’s comments, “red flag” that he only bought things he wanted and you were too shy to ask or say what you wanted. men like this 1. think what they spend on the trip is already a lot in his mind and counts as a gift. 2. he wants complete control over his money. 3. he identifies himself and his ego with his money 4. even if he tries to share, he cant because without money he feels so empty inside and feels like nobody. this type of man is most likely to be a self centered man. stay away from self centered man and go with mem who have compassion and who have mindfullness. so no matter how nice you are selfish men are hard to change. they will disappoint you everytime even though time and time again you fight about it and ask him to show more compassion he will find a way to.disappoint you.
Sally says
I have to go with the guy here as well. Her entire letter sounds like she feels she is entitled to his money. I’m surprised he has put up with this for 4.5 years. My boyfriend of 3.5 years and I do not live together, so our situation is not exactly the same. He does indeed make more money than me.. probably 4x as much. He does tend to pick up more tabs than I do, but I always offer. Always. And on our recent beach vacation, it was sweet to see the grateful look on his face when I handed over my credit card to gas up the car.
I have been on the opposite side of this coin… living with a guy who was jobless. (He did indeed turn out to be a user/mooch but that is another topic.) And I did feel resentment when he just expected me to pay for whatever he wanted. It took away my spirit of giving out of caring when it became a demand.
Monica says
I dont care if I sound old fashion, but I think she is not expecting too much..I believe that a man should take care of his wife and family, i think it is his job as a husband and father and yes i believe that a woman should do the cleaning and cooking and make her man happy.. I think that she needs to communicate with her fiancee and tell him how she feels and maybe he can change his ways… of course if the man wants to help the wife then that is good too but as far as equality is concerned.. i do not want to be the one who mows the grass or make sure the cars have their oil changed, Ill stick with the indoor work.. bottome line.. a man should provide his woman with the things she needs AND wants…
Steve says
Why?
JuJu says
I remember reading this advice column a couple years back in which a woman was complaining that while her husband makes ten times as much money as she does, he insists on splitting all common expenses equally, and while she has nothing left for herself after that, he has expensive hobbies and goes on luxury vacations (without her).
Perhaps my thinking on this is so categorical because I originally come from a country where separate finances in a marriage are unheard of, but still, how can two people IN A MARRIAGE have differing standards of living, and be both okay with it??
The man in that marriage was obviously able to enjoy all the extravagances that leave his wife out and not be bothered by her misfortune (which already seems bizarre to me), but, more importantly, the wife – she wrote that letter after some years of being married to him! So, that tells me, for quite a long time she’d been trying very hard to justify his conduct as legitimate!
For what it’s worth, yes, if the woman in the couple makes much more than the man, and yet chooses to be with him, I would expect her to contribute proportionally, too.
vino says
There’s 1 assumption underlying what I’m about to say – that she wanted (as did he) to have the home/cars/etc. that take her income. If she wanted to have extra $, then she could/should have argued for something more modest within her budget.
With that assumption, if they live in a place and have overhead expenses that leave her little left over why should he pay more for her, subsidizing her life? Don’t just say “Because they’re married.” Marriage is a contract voidable at either party’s discretion. So, if he pays to subsidize her increased standard of living for some years, and she later decides to leave, he has nothing for that time. But she has more than she otherwise would have had due to her own efforts. In effect, he’s paid her for her time.
Cold, I know, but that’s how it works.
Jasmin says
“…how can two people IN A MARRIAGE have differing standards of living”. EXACTLY.
Paul says
This is just my opinion, but from experience, when 2 people get married, it should all go into one pot regardless of circumstances…what’s yours is mine and what’s mine is yours. As a man, wouldn’t I want my wife that I love to have all the best I could afford? Of course I would if I truly loved her. But I am wondering if her fiance even knows about her feelings on this topic? I really think this is most likely situational and there is another side to it. If not, if the guy really doesn’t have a good spirit, she should move on regardless of the life she is promised because it is all material anyway, so won’t be fulfilling most likely if the relationship and respect isn’t there.
Me says
“As a man, wouldn’t I want my wife that I love to have all the best I could afford? Of course I would if I truly loved her.”
You got it right, Paul!
Socrates says
“what’s yours is mine and what’s mine is yours.” I think that would probably work in a situation where both parties make similar incomes but sadly, women have allowed progressive communist ideals to infiltrate their views of relationships. Allow me to demonstrate. A typical woman dating a man who makes more money than her will assume that the man should cover more bills and pick up the tab more as he has more money to spend than she does. It doesn’t matter whether she saves all her money or blows it frivolously, the man should pay more regardless. In addition, even if the man makes less money than her, she believes that the man should support her and pay all the bills as this is the man’s “job” and that is his proper role in supporting his wife or girlfriend. Every argument is in the female’s favor.
Isabel says
I personally feel if two people have not reached a point to trust each other enough to commingle their finances, then they should not get married, regardless of which partner being the higher earning spouse.
Philip Poeschl says
Your idea works great when your earning less or saved less….
HopeInLove says
Great unbiased response Paul.
Honey says
I also wondered what the $200 “shopping” was – if it’s groceries, pony up (though not for all of it), but if it’s your own spending, well, it’s yours.
The BF and I divide rent proportionally to income and most other bills half (since even if I did live on my own I wouldn’t spend 1/3 less on trash collection or cable…oh, and to clarify I bring in 1/3 the money and he brings in 2/3 or so). It works for us now.
If there’s going to be a prenup, then she has a say in what it contains. Why not have a prenup that says that they will each contribute proportionally to household expenses? Or that they will have the exact same amount of spending money? It’s not as if she doesn’t get a say on what goes in that document.
.-= Honey´s last blog ..Is Your Love Style Blowing Your First Dates? =-.
Socrates says
what’s with this proportional spending nonsense. Each of you are equal members of the relationship so why should one party have to contribute more?
Honey says
Oh, and my understanding of the LW was that he pays for numerous cars that are his, and she pays for her own. Maybe that’s not the case, but I think it’s not especially clear from the letter.
.-= Honey´s last blog ..Is Your Love Style Blowing Your First Dates? =-.
Jonsi says
Paul,
Really? I get your general point, but it does not resolve conflicts. I don’t see how, if a man makes a lot of money and is married, that his wife can just go out and spend whatever she wants for her own pleasure as long as they maintain positive cash flow. There would still need to be boundaries on her lifestyle and what she can and cannot spend.
I don’t think we have enough information to pass judgment; if her fiance wrote in, I could just as easily conclude “she’s not independent,” not that he is cheap. There is a big difference between saying “it would be fun to learn how to sail together. Let’s look into taking lessons” and “Suzy is learning how to sail and I want to take classes with her. Can I have $200?” From the author’s tone, it sounds like she asks for the latter. We have no way of knowing without more information.
casualencounters.com/blog says
Object to this sentence and its implicit equating of success with wealth:
“Just the other day I was talking with a semi-successful guy – not a millionaire – who took care of his girlfriend when she was unemployed and couldn’t afford to pay rent.”
.-= casualencounters.com/blog´s last blog ..LiveJasmin.com review =-.
sjz says
I have gone out with two men who were millionaires. I am currently unemployed and expected nothing of them. They were the cheapest men I have ever met on earth. One bitched because I wouldn’t buy an ice-cream for him because he didn’t want to pay for it! Any money that was spent on me, I heard about it. Its true what they say, if you marry for money you pay for every cent of it!
On the other hand I dated a man for 4 years who made $35,000.00. He paid for what he could and truly understood what the reason for making money really was. He paid for the expenses he had, saved and had the kind of fun he could have by watching what he spent. Two totally different attitudes. It all comes down to seeing the world as one of scarcity or as one of abundance. No amount of money in the world will change somone’s mind when they think they will never have enough.
Philip says
I agree with what you just said. There is a reason a millionaire is a millionaire. Usually it’s from watching their spending more than what they make. I am fairly wealthy and I will watch my spending, not near as much as when I was young, but I am frugal. I do know that if you have two completely different types of spenders, it can create issues. That said, in this case, this woman still made 45k and I’ll bet her fiance covered most if not all her housing expenses. 45K is a pretty nice ride if your expenses are reasonable.
starthrower68 says
I had to read the letter again after reading Evan’s response, and I think Evan has a very valid point. I’m always troubled by the “I love him/her but….” sentence. If I’m reading this correctly, the gentlemen in question provides for pretty much all of her needs. I’m not sure it’s unreasonable for her to provide for some things. I’m only speculating based on what the OP wrote but he sounds like a man in love, even if he is cheap, as she says. If he truly is not generous, then that’s another story, as two people are supposed serve one another in love in a relationship. But I wonder if he is truly as stingy as he’s made out to be; after all, would he not have dumped the OP when she went from a $100K income to $45K? Only a guess, I dunno.
Curly Girl says
I want you to read the letter again, and this time, imagine that the guy is writing the letter and instead of talking about money, they’re talking about sex……
“She won’t give me what I want….”
“I think that in a marriage the woman should take care of her man…”
“My sexual needs are greater than hers…”
“I ask for it and she won’t give it…”
“Can I marry someone who is so selfish about sex?”
Ha!!! 🙂
Enlightened says
Most men would agree that marrying a woman known to be stingy with sex would be foolhardy, assuming that it is important to the man. Therefore, if a woman is dating a man who “makes her feel awkward” when she needs money, she would be a fool to marry him. He isn’t going to change.
Kevin says
He’d be a fool for marrying her, if her understanding of money leads to a financial liability.
Sara says
I’m most concerned that they are 6 months from marriage and don’t have a worked-out financial arrangement that they can both live with (i.e., putting 80% of both salaries in a joint checking account to pay bills with, save for a new house, vacations, etc and 20% to spend on themselves, or whatever they come up with). HOW they divvy it up is not my place to judge, and ultimately kind of irrelevant to this discussion.
Clearly their expectations are not aligned, and that is a big problem. Have they not sat down and hashed all this out? They are planning a wedding and she’s expecting a pre-nup talk but they haven’t had it yet? She should ask for that conversation, immediately after she sits down and sorts out what she needs and expects from him financially. A pre-nup is not just about protecting a wealthier man from a woman. Hopefully they can figure this all out openly and honestly soon, or I fear for their marriage’s longevity.
vino says
“immediately after she sits down and sorts out what she needs and expects from him financially. A pre-nup is not just about protecting a wealthier man from a woman”
– The cynical bastard in me says it’s about paying her for her time….
As an adult she should not NEED his help financially. Nor should she EXPECT it. Even after marriage. Unless they work out some arrangement vis-a-vis kids (& only for that). Otherwise, she’s already benefiting simply by moving in & raising her standard of living well beyond what she can afford.
Sara says
When I said “expects from him financially,” I actually meant what they both expect financially from their relationship. Does he expect to pay certain things for her but not others? Does he expect not to pay for any of her expenses at all? Does she expect him to pay all their joint expenses? What their expectations are don’t matter to me, but they should already have this figured out. Since they don’t, she is resentful, and he may be as well.
Finally, you sound a bit cynical. They aren’t dating; they are getting married. While she comes across as whiny in this letter and I don’t agree with her immaturity in addressing the issue head on, you seem to be implying she should be grateful that her standard of living is increasing at all, and shut up. Is that really how marriage works these days?
vino says
“you seem to be implying she should be grateful that her standard of living is increasing at all, and shut up. Is that really how marriage works these days?”
First, they are NOT married. Not yet. She’s didn’t even give an approx. date. So the assumption of marriage “what’s mine is yours & vice versa” does not apply. His stuff is his and hers is hers.
Secondly, She SHOULD be grateful AND stfu. He is doing her a favor by letting her live with him prior to marriage. He need not do that at all. She is getting a GIFT of living in a place she cannot otherwise afford. And, since she mention he spends a lot of $ on his (our) house and no contribution from her (remember, she’s ‘generous’), I’m surmising that she ain’t paying for the house either. He’s under no duty or obligation to do any of it.
And, let’s face it, part of the reason she is with him IS the $$. ‘Cause if he’s so good to her & she STILL resents him due to money, you know where her head is at ($$$).
Simply put, she wants the benefit of his already earned (or inherited) money, without having earned it herself. Worse, she seems to feel as though she’s entitled to it. That’s sick.
So yes, it is about paying her for her time, since I don’t see what else she is bringing to the table.
girl-with-glasses says
I don’t know what she needed the $200 to go shopping for, gifts, clothing, grocery, etc…Either way, it sounds terribly tacky.
He’s not her atm, it doesn’t paint a pretty picture of her mental state and expectations.
Yes, he does come across as responsible but a bit on the stingy side. But I expect she’s hardly the big-hearted, fun-loving gal she imagines herself to be. I don’t imagine she’d be deludged by better offers if she left this relationship.
To the op, if after a 4.5 year relationship, he still wants to marry you, I’d count my blessings. With the current economy, having a thrifty mentality won’t kill you. If you’re still not satisfied, I’d wait to see the prenuptials, and hammer away from there.
LK says
Wow. They’re not even married yet. Why isn’t she covering her own expenses?
I understand having a single income family if one partner stays home to care for children. And if there is a large income discrepancy in a relationship, then I could understand splitting common expenses — and splurges — on a somewhat proportional basis. But engagement or not, I don’t understand feeling entitled to someone else’s money just “because”.
This is FAR from a dealbreaker, but I would really prefer to find someone whose income and ideas about fiscal responsibility are in a similar ballpark to mine (e.g., within a factor of 2 in either direction). I think it would simplify a lot in terms of compatibility and expectations.
I really feel uncomfortable making relationships about money. (I would also not want to date someone who had severe money issues and was unable to provide for himself.) I try to take turns with paying when I’m dating someone to avoid the appearance that I’m just there for the free meal. Feminism has its faults, but in my opinion the opportunity to take responsibility for myself is a positive outcome.
vino says
“Feminism has its faults, but in my opinion the opportunity to take responsibility for myself is a positive outcome.”
I agree, but in a dating & marriage arena, most ‘feminists’ still clamor like hell for the patriarchy’s (*gag*) shouldering the financial burdens of dating & marriage. Kinda hypocritical.
And you are right about dating closer to one’s income bracket. I think guys shouldn’t date anyone who makes less than them (within reason). These issues then reduce considerably.
Of course the outcry that would ensue….
Steve says
Playing both sides of the fence is human nature and is not peculiar to feminists or women.
I think part of the cause is that many intelligent, ethical and fair women are truly unaware of the “female privilege” they have. Men crave any amount of positive female attention they can get, even just a smile. Men will cater their words to women with the result of women having a false impression of how men/the world works. A few feminists and really sharp, contemplative women see through all of this, but most women do not.
Being able to smile, weep, or emote your way out of getting a traffic ticket isn’t nearly enough compensation for the negative sexism out there, but that and other examples of female privilege do exist. Like Simone, I think ultimately it works against the creation of a more egalitarian society.
Jennifer says
So true Steve, so true.
shawna says
Hey Steve,
Only way I’ve EVER been able to talk my way out of a traffic ticket is by acting like an a-hole rich jerk. Countless old rich a-holes always get outta tickets by being rich a-holes. If crying and that crap worked, the cop is the sexist a-hole looking at women like dum little girls. I’ll let you know when acting like a little girl gets me anything other than perverted old men following me around……….
Janet says
Heavens. There seems to be a lot of unfounded assumptions going on here. We have no idea what the financial arrangement is regarding their household, and yet the assumption is that she is some kind of gold-digger getting a free ride and that the reason he is so “stingy” is because she is usurious. The woman was making $100K before she got downsized (or whatever caused the change in her income). Hardly sounds like a free-loader to me.
Further, we don’t know anything about his wealth or how it operates in his life. Is it family money? Did he make it himself? Is she calling him a “multi-millionaire” because he owns and lives in a $2 million house in a Connecticut suburb (pretty ordinary there) or because he can invest $10 million in commodities? These are all very different situations that go with a different way of managing wealth and a different mentality on his part. We just don’t have enough information to jump to all the conclusions that people have been jumping to.
She is wise to think about all of this before marrying him, especially if she is feeling so angry at him. She is not without risk in marrying someone with more assets. If he owns the place but she contributes to its upkeep and pays him “rent,” so to speak, she is not building equity in her own place and he is getting a subsidy — tax-free money going toward the maintenance of one of his assets. If he has more money he may want to buy pricier things and expect to split the cost 50-50 with her — proportionately to her income, she ends up paying more. Or she may have given up a good lease to move in with him. She may have to commute farther to her work to live with him. She may be doing more housework than she would were she single. His career may take precedence over hers when it comes to decisions regarding their personal life. If he needs her to go with him to social functions that benefit his career she may be spending a lot of time and money to be outfitted appropriately, money that she wouldn’t otherwise spend in that way. The list goes on….
In short, there are many situations in which his wealth may be great for him, and her living there makes his life easier, but it doesn’t necessarily go in the other direction. Bottom line is that they need to have a deep discussion about money before they get married.
girl-with-glasses says
Janet, that’s a great comment. Sometimes, a wiser and cooler head does prevail.
If it were only a discussion about money, or divison of duties, your solution would work flawlessly. Underlying everything though, I get the impression that the op doesn’t feel she’s loved , or loved enough, by this man.
I still think the examples cited were tacky, and don’t paint a good picture of her character or maybe just her maturity with respect to a relationship, BUT, as a woman, I do somewhat get where she’s coming from. As grownup as we want to talk about money, it *is* tied up with the psyche. Money is a form of love too…how else do you explain how much parents shell out for college educations, etc… A woman might not need a man to pay her way, but being occasionally spoiled doesn’t hurt. I don’t feel she should have asked for money for shopping, but maybe she did it only pressed as a last resort because she felt he was never going to make a generous gesture toward her. If she feel he’s stingy with his money in respect to her, it might just mean she feels he is stingy with his emotional affection as well.
Yes I know she mentions that they have a good time together, but how much does it really take for two adults to be polite in each other’s company? Maybe facing the prospect of a life time committment, she’s wondering what she’s really signing up for.
Imogen says
This is by far the most SENSIBLE comment on here. The rest are like coming from people who either:
a) are bitter because things did not work out for them spouse-wise so they are projecting on this woman
OR
b) They have money issues themselves and they make life revolve around it. Stupid.
You are SO right there, Janet. Life is not always measured by numbers nor can contributions that people make in one another’s life’s be QUANTIFIED.
The OP SHOULD NOT be seen (as i hear the keyboard warriors here suggesting) as an ungrateful dependent to her man. They are adults who are together because of far more things than money can buy, and it is this value that the OP is anxious about, regarding values around money and generosity. I don’t see any grounds to bad-mouth this woman, rather than just offer a polite advice.
downtowngal says
Based on what she’s saying (and we’re only hearing her side) this is not about money – this guy sounds very selfish. And if she says she’s feeling angry and resentful now, imagine how it’ll be once they’re married.
I dated a guy once who didn’t earn a ton of cash but treated me well, always insisted on paying.
She should be his number one priority and if he’s nickeling and diming her while spending a lot of cash on things for himself, than it’s a sign of things to come.
Hot Alpha Female says
Like many of the comments on here have suggested I think there needs to be a distinction between how he handles his money and him being generous.
Is it that he is generous in every other aspect, just not in giving out cash.
And if this is the case then, maybe its the actual handing out of money that he is uneasy with.
I’m saying look at it from his perspective aswell. If he is wealthy, then is he concerned that women only really want to date him because of his money.
Or does he not have that kind of generosity when it comes to you.
I think if you answer that question, then you be able to make a more educated decision.
Hot Alpha Female
The Only Woman You should Take Dating Advice From
.-= Hot Alpha Female´s last blog ..The "Hes Just Not That Into" Rules. Do They Really Apply? =-.
Michael says
First: “$200 to go to the store”?
What do you need $200 to go to the store for that you expect your fiance to simply open his pocketbook and hand it over without question?
Second: Not much I can say that Evan and others haven’t said. No matter whether you’re wrong or he is, the fact is that money issues ruin relationships – unless you can speak honestly and hammer out an agreement you’re both happy with, you’re done.
.-= Michael´s last blog ..101 Reasons That Salads Are Awesome =-.
honey says
I usually do the grocery shopping for both the BF and me, and since we are veggie and go to 3 stores so we can get all the specialty items, a trip was often $300-$400. His share is FREQUENTLY $200 and if he did not pay me immediately I’d be furious, since most of the things on our shopping list are for him and I’d already paid. It’s tough to tell from this example.
Perhaps her love style is gifts, and she doesn’t even care if they’re expensive or not, she just wants him to show her that he cares that way. It sounds like his love style might be quality time. If this is the case, then they just have to find strategies to deal with that.
My love style is touch, and the BF is VERY accommodating…
.-= honey´s last blog ..Is Your Love Style Blowing Your First Dates? =-.
Selena says
I had a similiar deal with a partner re: groceries. I did all the grocery shopping and almost all the cooking for us. He would want to give me only about a fourth of what I already shelled out despite the fact he ate two thirds of the food. I understand the resentment.
Steve says
I’m a vegan, I often go to 2-3 different stores. My grocery bill, is an expensive metropolitan area is about $60. I could get it doewn to $40 or less by cutting out luxuries and making more things myself.
I don’t think two people need $200 per week just for a food budget.
honey says
The budget we have is $300 every two weeks for two people.
.-= honey´s last blog ..Pick Your Path And Take It To The Max =-.
Jennifer says
Steve, $60 a week?
Steve says
Jennifer;
Yes, I spend about $60 a week on groceries for myself unless I am watching how much I spend.
Honey says
Well, then I’m happy – my budget of $75/week/person isn’t too far off. I eat three meals a day “at home,” because I bring breakfast and lunch to work and eat dinner at home. The BF eats out quite a bit, sadly.
.-= Honey´s last blog ..Random Thoughts On A Pickup Convention =-.
Joe says
$60/wk sounds reasonable to me.
Obviously, grocery budgets are dependent on how many meals you eat at home. If you only eat breakfast at home, your grocery bill is likely to be small (although your total weekly food bill may be much higher).
downtowngal says
Two more points:
(1) In some states, enough time must be allowed if one party presents the other with a prenup. In other words, you can’t just spring one on the other person the night before the wedding, you need to provide it at least 6 months beforehand for the other party to review, etc.
(2) Getting off topic here, but I’ve grown weary of guys who complain about women being gold-diggers. Often times their the ones who make money the issue and believe it’s necessary to attract women. As a result they end up dating women who are shallow or need green cards.
After 4.5 years, if this woman is truly a gold-digger this guy – if he had even a grain of sense – should know it.
You should marry someone who shares your values. It sounds as if these two don’t.
vino says
“(2) Getting off topic here, but I’ve grown weary of guys who complain about women being gold-diggers. Often times their the ones who make money the issue and believe it’s necessary to attract women. As a result they end up dating women who are shallow or need green cards.”
– Guys complain about it ’cause it’s so prevalent. Calling the guys complainers only stiffens their resolve. What you ignore is that many women ARE goldiggers. As has been bandied about many times on various threads, one of the things women in general do seek in men is ‘security’ in the form of financial security.
– And yes, guys SHOULD make money the issue and act to protect their $. After all, women who have $$ don’t want to lose it to some goldigging gigolo. That’s responsible & prudent, no? Guys should d the same.
– And an average looking guy with no $$ has little chance in getting a good looking woman. But, throw seven or eight zeroes of net worth, and his options increase exponentially. That’s the reality. So on some level, it is necessary to attract women, even average ones.
“After 4.5 years, if this woman is truly a gold-digger this guy – if he had even a grain of sense – should know it.”
– I don’t disagree. But people can hide their true nature and intent for an awfully long time.
Selena says
What if he also made 45k and the $200 she was asking for was for things for the home? He spends “his” money on expensive toys for himself and gambling but turns recalcitrant when it comes to purchasing a vacuum cleaner – would the observations on their characters be the same? Would she be advised to just “deal with it” ?
Why is it that if a man has more money his partner is automatically slotted as a golddigger? What if he is a “paper millionaire”? One twist of the stock market, or one bad business decision turns him into a paper pauper. Is his attitude still reasonable?
I don’t know if he is stingy or not, but it’s perplexing after 4.5 years together and 5 months away from a wedding they haven’t discussed this situation in depth.
Seductress says
The bottom line is, she need to discuss openly, and right quick, this issue with her fiance’.
Do it today!
If she wants a generous man and doesn’t consider this guy to be one, then marrying him will bring more anger and resentment. He’s not going to change but perhaps she would feel more comfortable once they both have a chance to explain their vision of the finances of marriage.
.-= Seductress´s last blog ..Heat Up His Desire Inflict Pain =-.
LeahB61 says
Dear Lara,
My advice to you is call off the wedding. Don’t marry someone you resent in any way. Money is a huge issue in relationships. So is respect. If you feel disrespected, tell him.
I wish you happiness,
LeahB61
Austin, Tx
Joe says
Maybe it’s just me, but if I was making $45k and someone else was covering the mortgage/rent, I can’t imagine having to ask for $200 to go to the store…
Ollie owen says
The mortgage/rent is paid whether it is a one person home or 10…how does your logic make sense? Put a price tag on time: grocery shopping, sclepping groceries to home and putting away then preparation of meals and clean up. Your logic is flawed at best. You have no idea what the 45k is covering…perhaps cell phones, insurance and household items. Simply because he pays the mortgage does not mean he is void of the other duties he would complete if she were not there. BTW 60$ grocery bill weekly is farfetched at today’s prices. Some of these comments sound made from the armchair house”men”.
Philip says
I think her point was, if the mortgage and other major expenses are already covered, 45k goes a long way. Why does she need $200 if the mortgage is out of his pocket. Seems to me she has a spending problem.
downtowngal says
vino, you’re right, many women ARE indeed golddiggers. My point is that guys who complain about these types of women often attract them because they’re just as shallow.
Mary says
I was totally naive about money in my marriage and thought money problems would naturally work itself out. We were two hard-working people who made about the same amount of money.
I was shocked to find out how difficult communicating about money issues became and much we thought differently about how to save and spend.
It literaly spilled over to every aspect of our lives..
If you can’t talk about money issues before you are married..get help and learn ..quick.
Steve says
+ 1
Seductress says
Vino,
“What you ignore is that many women ARE goldiggers….One of the things women in general do seek in men is ‘security’ in the form of financial security.”
Seeking in part financial security makes a woman a gold digger???
If so, does a man who seeks in part, a younger, hot woman make him shallow?
vino says
“Seeking in part financial security makes a woman a gold digger???”
– Yes. Getting paid for companionship makes her something else too….
– Particularly in this day & age where women can do the same jobs as men & aren’t expected to be barefoot & pregnant by age 20. Hell, 60% or more of college graduates are women.
“If so, does a man who seeks in part, a younger, hot woman make him shallow?”
– Apples & oranges comparison. Compare looks to looks. So, does a woman who seeks in part, a younger, hot man make her shallow?
– Nah… She’s ’empowered.’
girl256 says
vino im sorry but men and women aren t the same biologically, we compare looks to financial stability, cause looks are what men prioritise and security is what women priorities in a relationship, cause women want to a man who will take good care of their babies and cause women want to feel loved and taken care of by their man cause she knows when he really loves her he will want to offer her anything he can.. when a man takes care of his woman it makes her love him and cherish him even more and men who really understand women do that, besides if you re with her for 4.5 years and you re still trying to “protect” your money from her cause she might be a gold digger it means that you don t really know her or love her how can you be in love with someone you still have doubts about so she has the right to be offended if he s not generous.
Bright Eyes says
Vino,
There are a lot of generalizations going on here…obviously we don’t know all there is to know about this situation.
I have not taken money from any man…or expected them to pay. And I do not have a great financial situation myself. I had a great career and made a great living, but took a MAJOR step back to be the one to stay home and raise the children….which wasn’t specifically my desire, but I thought I was sacrificing for the betterment of out team. Fast forward and I am still raising the children, divorced, and in an exceptionally precarious financial situation.
In many cases, men lead with their money…want to impress you with it, want entice you with it, want to make that their strength and cannot believe you won’t accept it. How is that not the same as some women wanting to be gold-diggers? There are two sides to these stories.
However, this woman’s story resonates with me a bit because I am quite a bit less financially secure than my boyfriend of three years. Always scrambling to the bottom of the pantry before payday..and sometimes getting by on very little. Not spending money impulsively. Worrying about car repairs, house repair expenses, wondering if I should sell my house…all very stressful. My boyfriend makes a great living..he doesn’t owe me anything at all. But it does make me concerned that he can see me in this situation and buy a second brand new BMW in three years (keeping them both), hasn’t had a desire to pay for a vacation, hasn’t entertained the idea of living together to share expenses (which alone would help me). He also has several hobbies that each require about $10,000 a year to participate in.
He does pay for meals when we go out. And other than the above is pretty frugal.
Does he owe me anything? No. I wouldn’t even be that easy in accepting someone else’s money. But I have to say…. it does concern me that he is okay seeing me struggle while being pretty lavish in parts of his own life. If you love someone, don’t you also want to at least try to make their lives less stressful? I don’t know. It kind of just makes me sad.
Seductress says
To make a blanket statement that any woman who considers finances at all, in any way, in choosing a mate is a gold digger is ridiculous.
Reducing the issue to “paying for companionship” doesn’t strengthen your stance either.
Say a woman wants to stay home and raise her children instead of using daycare. That woman will seek a man with the same value system who can and wants to provide financially for his family. Two people who want the same thing. No one is getting used.
He’s not a caveman to want that and she isn’t a gold digger.
JerseyGirl says
Janet, your post was the best yet.
Frankly, there are an awful lot of judgements being made about the couple in question. She’s a “gold-digger”, He’s “stingy”…truth is we all have different ideas about what being in a relationship means. Some people are okay with seperate finances and think money isn’t part of the relationship. While others believe that finances can be a reflection of the relationship. Look at it this way, how do men end up feeling when they don’t get sex from their partner? Doesn’t really matter if a man’s SO does infact love him. What is important is that *he* feel that her lack of sex is reflection of her lack of love. For some women, this can be simliar. His lack of wanting to provide for her can make her feel he doesn’t want to be giving towards her. Living in a world where more men don’t want to be giving to you then not, can easily make a woman feel that if her own partner shows the same signs, he can’t possibly be as dedicated to the relationship as she is. If a man is stingy with his money, he might be stingy with other things. And he might not think that she is really his partner.
I will say that I am rather sick of hearing women get judged for being gold diggers. Most women aren’t. But the truth is that YES, women want a man that will want to share a life with her and provide for her. That is naturally ingrained in most women. We don’t sit around and tell men they are look-diggers. A silly term but true. It’s okay for men to be shallow about the way women look. That’s okay. YOu won’t hear other men castrate other men for it. And women aren’t nearly as tough on men for looks as men are on women for their looks. But godforbid a woman want a man that wants to share a life with her, in ALL areas, and that includes money. Because deep inside our nature a man that wants to share his resources with us, wants to share a life with us. Sadly, there are alot of men today that are so afraid of themselves they rather sit around and call women names like “gold-diggers’, defend their own shallow wants and perscute women for theirs.
Good luck with that.
Steve says
Woo Hoo! The original comments plugin is back!
Thanks Evan!
Leah says
Hmmm… He pays a whole lot of the bills; but what does she contribute? Or is it okay to believe because you earn considerably less than your fiance that you are exempt of paying household bills??? I don’t see the logic in that one ..
If she is exempt of contributing towards the household bills then she should have lots of money left over, more than the 200dollars she’s asking for.. Me thinks at least..
Is he really cheap? Does she expect an allowance or atleast expects him to give her the balance that she isn’t making anymore?
Did they make any agreements on how much each party is going to contribute towards whatever.. or is it because he makes more that he should take all cares upon him..
Which he is doing..i must add..
Her resentment comes from assuming, having certain expectation which she never cleared up at the the time these issues arose..
Get it cleared up first or else you may go from resentment to outrage when he kindly shows you where to sign (pre nup!)
Sarah from Dating Tips for Women says
I may have a little bit of a unique perspective on this, because I grew up this way with my father. My mom and dad divorced after 22+ years of marriage when I was 17. They split up, and my Dad, who had always made great money, went on to make REALLY great money. He can pretty much afford to buy anything he wants, but has t-shirts that he wears that are older than I am, and he is ….very…..frugal. 🙂 I love my Dad – very much. He and I have a great relationship. However, there is always that element of money and an internal war I struggle with because I KNOW my Dad has a lot of money, and could really help me financially (we have been struggling HARD lately, almost lost our house) but he won’t help. NOW – I KNOW that it is HIS MONEY and I have NO RIGHT to it. I didn’t earn it. My financial situation is not his fault. But in my heart sometimes I am still hurt that he won’t help. Its an internal war that I seem to struggle with all the time – and even have to defend, because a lot of my family thinks that he should be helping us too and it actually makes me mad that they think that! Like I said, its not his problem, its MY problem.
So I think it is very possible to love him with all your heart – and for him to love YOU that way too, and for him to see money as a totally separate entity from the marriage and the love. My dad is living with a woman whom he has lived with for over 10 years and he does not give her a dime either. Yet he is the one who makes the house payments when she cannot pay her half, etc. And I understand how it makes her feel “less” than him. But I also know that my Dad genuinely loves me, and would die for me, but money, somehow, just isn’t part of that equation, and it doesn’t have to be.
Mo says
Right or wrong. One or the other. Penurious or gold-digger. The issue will continue into the marriage. He will not change and she will always feel resentment toward him for it. It’s a match made to to break up-before or after the ceremony.
Carol says
I think she needs to have a serious talk to him regarding money. This story reminds me of a family in my neighborhood where I grew up. The father drove a brand new car and bought an expensive, state of the art stereo system. Meanwhile his wife and kids were wearing old, ratty clothes.
KJL says
I love this article and Evan’s perspective on the situation. If you can’t talk about money, you can’t get married. I suspect that Simone doesn’t have the vaguest understanding of her own personal values about money, but she is very quick to judge her man’s values on the issue. It would be so much fun to hear his side of the story.
JerseyGirl says
That’s pretty awful Carol.
Chanel says
HAPPY BIRTHDAY EVAN!
Your work has helped me quite a bit–thank you!
Zann says
In a nutshell: Stingy with money; stingy with affection. That’s been my experience in life, anyway. At the first sign that a guy & I might be starting a relationship, I let him know right up front what my financial situation is, that I am and always have been gainfully employed (with health insurance no less!) but still have a considerable amount of debt from medical bills/kids, and that I’m not ready or able to retire yet. Then I make it clear that I expect no financial support from him. But if he plans to keep up his current lifestyle, which includes frequent travel, spontaneous getaways, and long stretches of leisure time, I’m not a good match for
him. Some men will willingly cover a woman’s expenses for the pleasure of having her companionship, and that is a choice he makes. Whether I accept could depend on many factors, but if I do accept that generous gesture, does this make me a gold-digger? Or a kept woman? Not in my book. If he’s making the offer begrudgingly, I would be foolish to accept because that’s a disaster waiting to happen. Granted, there are many unknowns in Lara’s letter, and we’re only hearing one side of the story. But we do know it’s bothering her, and that means it will continue to bother her and it WILL affect their relationship from here to eternity. And contrary to what someone said earlier, I consider this a huge deal-breaker — whether he’s stingy or she’s a gold-digger doesn’t really matter in the end. They’ll be unhappy. People don’t change. On the issue of feminism, I think a woman can feel hurt by her partner’s lack of sensitivity when it comes to money matters and still be an ardent feminist. I’ve personally found that it’s the man who came into money through means other than his own hard work who is the most likely to criticize his woman for not being more financially sound, even if she is a very fiscally responsible person. If he doesn’t realize his good fortune and do what he can to help her out BECAUSE IT MAKES HER HAPPY and maybe takes some stress off her shoulders and thus helps their relationship, then he’s placing his own comfort over hers and is someone I, for one, would not want to share a life with. On the other hand, if a woman sees a relationship as an opportunity to better her lifestyle and will foolishly opt to let a man “save her,” or pay her way, she’s still buying into the premise that men = caretaker. That’s not a feminist value, in my opinion. We’re not children, and we shouldn’t EXPECT men to act “fatherly” and either bail us out of financial situations we’ve created or keep us comfy and happy. But for the record, men can also be gigolos and never give it a second thought. They make decisions which financially impact both partners (“Hon, I quit my job today; I could not take one more day with my dick of a boss.”..or “Yea, I know I shouldn’t have, but babe, getting this sailboat has been my dream. Besides, you’re coming up for a promotion, right?”) and expect the woman to carry the day. I’d say Lara and her guy are sailing into some very choppy waters, and a storm’s a-brewin’ … In any event, she can’t say she didn’t know.
RockieRoad says
Evan, terrific perspective. Very well written. We’ve haven’t heard his side, which I’d guess would only make your opinion even more valid.
June says
Happy Birthday, Evan!
Ruby says
#83 JerseyGirl
I just read this comment from Steve Harvey, who wrote “Act Like A Lady, Think Like A Man”, “We (men) created the term ‘gold digger’ so you won’t ask us for nothing”. Not that I agree with everything he says, but I had to chuckle at this!
Michel says
What if these people have children? Will they be his or her responsibility?
What a CRAP situation. Only in the USA could people have the gall to believe that such petty quibbling about counterfeit currency and who has more and who pay’s for what and such utter nonsense is actually more important than becoming a family which is suppose to be the point of being married.
Mrs Happy says
If these people get married, they will often argue over money. If they have children, and she stops/reduces her paid work, they will argue over money even more. Their views on marital finances are likely not compatible with mutual financial comfort.
Money issues while dating become massively magnified once marriage occurs, and again further magnified when children enter the scene. Being on roughly the same page wrt attitudes to spending and saving and sharing is extremely important – and even then, there will be some fights about money. My advice to singles: bserve your bf/gf ‘s attitude to money; any issue you have will become bigger once you are running a home and future together.
Johanus says
It’s interesting to see the disparity in comments here. Yesm, she does appear to have an expectation that he pay for things for her. And yes, the ideal of equality between men and women has not 100% crystalised as some envisioned it. We still have a division of labour in the family and also in our career choices. Notice that many (not all) women who choose the high pressure careers that were traditionally held by men are also choosing to greatly delay or choosing simply not have kids? This couple definitely needs to sit down and talk about finances! What are the expectations of each of them? Why do they feel that way? What compromises can be made to make each of them more comfortable? Finances are one of the top reasons for divorce, and if they don’t deal with it ahead of time, it will lead to troubles for them in the future.
.-= Johanus´s last blog ..Avoiding the Trap of Worthless Spending =-.
JerseyGirl says
Oh that’s good Ruby..I will have to get that book.
juliette says
it’s HiS friggin’ MONEY! he can do what he wants with it. if you want 200.00 to go to the store, use YOUR money.
Jennifer says
@Michel #96- Only in the USA? I find that very hard to believe.
Michel says
@100 Jennifer…I should have been more specific with my comment so I do apologize for that. However it is true that here in our western “civilization” are the values of greedy selfish people. It’s all about “ME”, what do “I” get out of this, what have YOU done FOR “me” lately and so on. Such can be found in anyone anywhere but it is most prevalent in our society and yes especially in the USA (I’m a well traveled born and raised US citizen and not a foreigner knocking our fine country). She could/should spend her own $200 even if it is groceries. After all, can’t feed her man once in a while since she is earning her own currency? What of this man? Where went his pride when he decided not to provide?My point was this: what about the children if they have any? Will they be “his” or “her’s”? What happens when she is pregnant or cannot work for whatever reason? What if he cannot work for whatever reason? Are they to become a FAMILY with SHARED RESOURCES or simply two people with a contractual obligation to be…what?? This is a discussion about a speculation regarding one side of a situation so we none of us know the whole story but it also begs the questions: What happened to love, to family and what happened to fundamental concern for one another?
What the hell have we become??
vino says
Seductress’ #77
Vino,
“Seeking in part financial security makes a woman a gold digger???”
____
Vino’s #80
“- Yes. Getting paid for companionship makes her something else too. ”
____
Seductress’ #81
“To make a blanket statement that any woman who considers finances at all, in any way, in choosing a mate is a gold digger is ridiculous.
Reducing the issue to paying for companionship doesn’t strengthen your stance either.”
____
Seductress, if you look at the quotes, you’ll note your last reply completely misstates what YOU previously asked and answered. You morphed from “seeking in part financial security” to “any woman who considers finances” which, as you can see went from a specific question (seek financial security) to a rephrased generalization (considers finances).
You may not like my direct answer to your question (I don’t either, btw), but don’t deliberately mischaracterize what I said my misstating/restating it otherwise.
Seductress says
Vino, I didn’t mischaracterize anything.
How’s this…..to make a blanket statement that any woman who seeks, in part, financial securtiy is a gold digger is imo, ridiculous.
Ridiculous because it does not reduce her to being ‘paid for companionship’. Though I realize that is all you see.
I gave one example as to why-(the woman AND man wants a stay at home mother).
Here is another.
Financial ‘security’ doesn’t always/only mean ‘marry rich so I can won’t have to work and be spoiled’. (of course if the man and woman both want this type of relationship, I have no problem with it).
SECURITY can also mean: (and can pertain to any income level)
1.) Is this man smart with money i.e. won’t spend us into bankruptcy.
2.)Are we like minded about how we spend, how much we spend?
3.)Are we like minded about how we save/invest? How much we save/invest?
4.)Do we share the same value system about money? How much is yours, how much is mine, how much is ours?
5.)Do we have a rainy day fund, emergency fund? Retirement and college fund?
I could go on. All of these considerations should be PART of any smart woman’s (or man’s) choice in choosing a mate to ensure ‘FINANCIAL SECURITY’.
When you blend your lives and credit scores legally, considering money is a must along with all the other important factors.
Honey says
Seductress, that’s exactly what I think of when I think of financial security, too. The BF and I had a talk about a bunch of those things just the other day. Just because someone makes a lot of money doesn’t make them financially secure, either – plenty of those people are in debt up to their eyeballs.
.-= Honey’s last blog ….Accomplish Something to Become More Attractive =-.
Seductress says
Yes Honey, absolutely. It’s smart and essential to consider money when considering marriage and doing what you can to ensure your financial security.
Vino–“she is seeking from a man freedom from financial risk….or cares or from want…”
If that is the def. we’re agreeing on, I still have no problem with it as long as both the man and woman desire said situation.
I don’t put judgmental labels on such a woman or a man to want this setup. Who cares as long as they are happy with it??
It sounds like a mismatch is the problem for the writer of the question.
vino says
“All of these considerations should be PART of any smart woman’s (or man’s) choice in choosing a mate to ensure FINANCIAL SECURITY.
When you blend your lives and credit scores legally, considering money is a must along with all the other important factors.”
– I actually agree with that. However, I think you framed the question as “Seeking in part financial security…” This says she is seeking from a man freedom from financial risk or freedom from financial cares or from want (those ‘security’ defs are from dictionary.com). In other words, you phrased it as a woman seeking a man to take care of her financial risks and cares.
And the phrase ‘financial security’ doesn’t have the myriad of meanings you gave it. I’m not trying to be picky, but in the definitions you gave simply don’t exist as a frame of reference for the phrase “financial security” in the slightest. In short, SECURITY means absolutely none of the six or so new definitions you assigned it. I’m not trying to be picayune, but you are making up new definitions for the word you chose rather than giving it its plain meaning, which perhaps contributes to the chasm of understanding.
Sorry, but you are again morphing your own words to try and mean something other (and far in addition to) than how you yourself used them.
And seeking from another person (male or female) freedom from financial risk or cares is seeking to be absolved from adult responsibilities. I don’t think a rational person of any gender or race would want a relationship with someone who wanted to be absolved from adult responsibilities…
vino says
“If that is the def. we’re agreeing on, I still have no problem with it as long as both the man and woman desire said situation.”
– I don’t either in theory, as long as she is COMPLETELY CANDID she’s seeking from a man freedom from financial risk.or cares or from want. Then he can make the informed decision about whether he wants someone financially dependent upon him. After all, that is what happens when you agree to free someone else from financial risk – you bear it. Unfortunately, such candor is lacking all too often, which isn’t to say it doesn’t exist.
“I don’t put judgmental labels on such a woman or a man to want this setup. Who cares as long as they are happy with it??”
I think people are free to do as they see fit. That said, you do have to make a judgment about the propriety of such behavior for your own life and in a larger context also. I think expecting someone else to pay your way (which is what we are talking about) in today’s day & age where women can and do the same work as men for the same pay is less than laudable, to be kind.
And I hate to keep bringing up the divorce stats & laws, but as we all know it is 50/50 odds so it merits mention…so supporting someone financially, you as the payor only stand to lose, particularly, if the non-earner decides she wants out. You end up paying long after she’s gone….
What I’m saying is you have to evaluate that demand/desire for someone to be supported financially and to support them so within the larger context of what happens in daily life, the genders’ equality in the workplace, and the laws that will most certainly apply should one party decide to end the marital contract unilaterally.
You have to look at the end effect…
JerseyGirl says
No offense Vino but you aren’t going to change the fact that women, on some level, regardless of their own income, want a man that can and wants to provide for them. That is biology right there. Women want responsible men, that want to share their lives (money included). They don’t want a petty, small minded man that is going to measure everything tit for tat, not share his life with her, and be more interested in protecting his money interests then his own partner. And no, that doesn’t make women gold-diggers. This is really a term that was created to redirect men’s own insecurities. And until the day men start choosing women completely independent of their looks, you have no place to complain about women’s invested interest in what a man makes. Neither one is more honorable then the next and no less driven by biology. So yes, in a perfect world men would pick women with beautiful hearts instead of just beautiful faces. And women would think poor men were just as great as well-off ones. But that’s not how it works. A woman wanting financial security has nothing to do with her not wanting to be a responsible adult. Perhaps a man that fights too hard against such a woman is the one that really doesn’t want to be the one with the responsiblity.
vino says
*Sigh*
“They don’t want a petty, small minded man that is going to measure everything tit for tat, not share his life with her, and be more interested in protecting his money interests then his own partner.”
– Lord knows under this scenario she ain’t interested in protecting his financial interests. It’s quite the opposite (she gets more at his expense). If he doesn’t, no one else will.
“And until the day men start choosing women completely independent of their looks, you have no place to complain about women’s invested interest in what a man makes.”
– You are phrasing it in those terms. I’m not. In fact, the way you frame it, women are selling only their looks. Not good. Surely there is more on offer than that.
– If men actually did choose women independent of their looks and what they brought to the table in terms of finances, personality, etc., you’d probably see less relationships. Not saying that to be confrontational, but if men applied the same standards to women (via, looks, personality, and $ in particular), you’d see fewer and fewer relationships and marriages. Actually, you are seeing fewer marriages anyway.
– And ladies consider looks in addition to $, but are more willing to compromise on looks for more $…. Guys just aren’t supposed to consider her $, which I think they absolutely should.
“A woman wanting financial security has nothing to do with her not wanting to be a responsible adult. Perhaps a man that fights too hard against such a woman is the one that really doesn’t want to be the one with the responsiblity.”
– Sorry but this statement seems absurd on its face. Wanting someone else to absolve you from providing for your own financial wants and needs IS absolutely shirking adult responsibilities. A man that fights too hard against such a person is someone who rightfully doesn’t want the added BURDEN of carrying someone who SHOULD carry themselves. Nice insinuation that guys who don’t want to ‘carry someone else’s water’ are irresponsible, though.
JerseyShortie says
In all honesty Vino, you can’t possibly have any idea what she is interested in protecting or not. But I hardly doubt she wants to put him in the hole with her spending. She gets more at his expense? What exactly is he majorly sacrificing to begin with? A couple dollars? Geez. Well if you really consider that major sacrifice I hate to see what happens when bigger issues come along.
And sorry, this isn’t about women just selling their looks. This is about the very real fact that men are more interested in looks and it’s okay for men to choose women based on this, on some level. But men like you getting in a tizzy if a woman dares to be logical enough to consider a man’s income level. You aren’t going to wipe out biology. And the fact remains from cave years to present day that women want a provider. Someone who wants to share their lives with her. Not be the type of man that is going to drawl a line in the sand out of a petty desire to keep what his is his and what is hers is hers. That’s not partnership. That’s not really a relationship.
Lastly, yes I do think men that go over board in complaining about the responsiblity of women wanting a provider to themselves be someone who is looking for less resposibilty. When you have a relationship it is about taking on more responsiblity. It’s about considering someone else. It’s about sharing your life. And in my own experiences, men that complained very much about women being “gold-diggers”, where usually the men that didn’t want a woman to look to him for any additional responsiblity or to be acting like a grown adult. It’s easy to live in a world where it’s all about you. Not so easy when it’s about considering another person and sharing with them. You think it’s selfish that a woman who loves and has been seeing a man for a certain length of time has issues pertaining to money? I think it’s selfish that a man that says he loves and woman and wants to share his life with her, expect for his money, is being selfish. because it’s clear what his most prized possession is.
The fact is, you aren’t going to wipe out millions and millions of years of biology just because you don’t like it and because women work (but do make less in the work place). In case you haven’t figured it out by now, women are just plain more vunerable by nature. And we look for extra security. If that makes you feel like less of a man and makes you feel the need to rally against it, I am truly sorry that you have that level of insecurity. Women want protectors at the end of the day. Not men who are going to draw lines in the sand about where she is allowed to stand and where he will stand.
Helen says
Instinctively, I completely agree with JerseyShortie’s statement: “Women want protectors at the end of the day. Not men who are going to draw lines in the sand about where she is allowed to stand and where he will stand.” Scientifically, though, it led me to wonder why we women have evolved to seek out men to be protectors. Look at females of other species: they are not seeking out male protectors. Female lions do the majority of the hunting and gathering, as do female birds. Female clownfish are bigger than male clownfish. I can’t speak for arthropods…
Is women’s seeking of protection purely a societal construct? If we got rid of social inequalities and expectations of stronger vs. weaker sexes, would that remove our need to be protected? I can’t deny that the longing that JerseyShortie stated exists in me, but I could imagine a world in which I didn’t feel that way, and it might be a better world for women.
Michael says
The fact is, you aren’t going to wipe out millions and millions of years of biology just because you don’t like it and because women work (but do make less in the work place). In case you haven’t figured it out by now, women are just plain more vunerable by nature.
I guess that is why feminism is such a failure, since it tries to wipe out millions of years of biology.
You aren’t going to wipe out biology.
So then gender equality is a hoax?
KCDQ says
Gender equality is a hoax. Equal pay for equal work is possible, but males and females have different biological functions. Human females are smaller than males and not nearly as strong. Human females have a long gestational period (9 mos) and a long time with a helpless dependent child. Human females have been programmed by 150000 years of species evolution to search for strong, high status males that can protect and provide for them and their offspring. It is unlikely that a couple of generations of social progress for women is going to change biology.
It is equally unlikely that human males do not wish to be strong providers for their mates and offspring. It has been my observation over the many years of my life that a man who sincerely loves a woman will do practically anything for her, as she will for him. Biology has designed us to complement one another. In the course of a long marriage, there are times when the man must be stronger and times when the woman takes over. Marriage occurs over a long period of time and people do not stay young, beautiful, and healthy forever. However, good marriages can endure very tough times, aging, illness, kid problems, money problems, job problems, etc. and remain happily intact.
The production of children requires a woman. If a man desires offspring, he may have to contend with sharing resources and possibly caring for the woman during pregnancy when she is really quite vulnerable. It can be difficult for both partners to contribute money equally to the relationship. Women are by nature intuitive, perhaps more so than men, because they are not as physically strong. I suspect the original poster senses that her relationship is not what it should be. Her perception that he is not willing to share his resources makes her feel vulnerable and not valued. What is the value of the woman’s contribution of a baby in a marriage? I am not in favor of prenups. I would never consider entering a marriage with a stipulation. I believe that marriage is a blending of spirit, resources, time, energy and passion. A happy marriage is literally the best thing that ever happens to anyone, male or female. In a happy marriage, no one keeps score.
A-L says
I just want to preface this by saying that Seductress’ multi-part definition of financial security is how I tend to view it for my own personal life.
In terms of the other aspect of financial security that is being discussed, I think there are a couple of different ideas going on. Basically, I think part of it is the idea that if something occurred (health problem, job loss, whatever) that someone would help carry the financial burden. This is for either partner. You want someone to have your back, hence, helping in part to provide financial security.
Also, I think the idea of keeping close accounting of what each of you provides is sort of what is irritating to many of the women. Maybe the guy has paid more in terms of eating out, but the girl has paid more in terms of vacationing. You spend money for each other because you love them, not as some sort of balance sheet where each person must put in a perfectly equal amounts or someone’s being “used.”
downtowngal says
Helen #111, while the lionesses are out hunting & gathering (for the entire pride), the lions are there to protect the cubs and the other lionesses.
vino says
I’ll try to be brief, apologies in advance
Re: JerseyShorty’s #110
– BTW, I am not saying it is about it’s only about women just selling their looks. However, when I ask the question “why should guys pay?” the answer from women (and you also, btw) is that men value looks. So, women themselves say they are selling their looks.
– You rationalize under biology that it’s okay to seek a provider. Let’s go with that. Under biology, man value beauty, youth, and fertility. So guys are perfectly justified in choosing women who are under 30 and pretty, without apology. Of course, men who do that are derided as cradle robbing swine…
– keeping with the ‘it’s okay under biology’ theme, older women are less valuable then as mates because they are older, less attractive (to men), and less fertile. Therefore their potential providers should pay far, far less for them, and some really snarky people could say at some point, they should pay the men to take them (I’m not saying that at all!).
– Not a pretty picture, is it? The ‘biology makes it okay’ argument cuts both ways.
– Also, you and others speak of ‘sharing lives’ and a ‘partnership.’ I’m not trying to be obstinate, but I still haven’t heard why guys should pay someone who is bringing far less to the supposed partnership. What specifically is offered to make it a ‘partnership?’ That’s a business term, so let’s analyze it as such.
“Not be the type of man that is going to drawl a line in the sand out of a petty desire to keep what his is his and what is hers is hers. That’s not partnership. That’s not really a relationship.”
– Sure it is. You can share your lives and yourselves on a personal level without giving someone your assets at your expense and their benefit. You see it in soldiers who survived combat together, who often have a closer bond with each other than anyone else on earth, and it’s not required that one who has more $$ gives it to the other as a condition of that relationship.
“…I do think men that go over board in complaining about the responsiblity of women wanting a provider to themselves be someone who is looking for less resposibilty.”
– Calling buys irresponsible babies isn’t effective.
“When you have a relationship it is about taking on more responsiblity.”
– My analytical issue is that under the scenario, the payor (provider) is the only one with additional responsibility. She has none, and in fact is more liberated. He less so. Please address that. No one does, unsurprisingly.
——–
Actually, Helen’s #111 starts to imagine where I am coming from. In a world where we can actually use our brains to think, analyze and choose a semi-rational course of action, simply saying ‘I’m following my biological hindbrain desire’ is insufficient. Is it okay for a man to whack a woman on the head with a club and drag her away? Of course not.
Is it okay to follow a guys’s hindbrain desire to ‘spread his seed?’ Of course not. We’ve devised and evolved societal customs and laws (benefits & burdens) to temper those baser impulses.
History’s moved at such a pace where only in the last 150 years could women begin to get educated, vote, work, work the same jobs for the same money. This is all pretty recent by historical standards. Today, those customs and laws say (and facts support) that women can go out, work (hunt & gather) the same as men, earning the same (and more in some places).
So the basic premise of wanting/needing a provider no longer exists in reality. I think that expecting someone to provide for you financially where you can and should do so today (and don’t expect to correspondingly provide financially), is, at its heart, selfish. It isn’t selfish if there is a corresponding expectation to financially provide on the other side, but that’s not what I’m hearing. So in the end, those who demand money for a relationship are poor relationship candidates, and should be avoided.
_____
Actually, re: dtg’s #114, men hunted, gathered AND protected. Lions are an inaccurate analogy or comparison.
_____
Re: A-L’s 113:
I don’t disagree that men and women should seek traits in the other that indicate the other is ‘financially responsible.’ However, seeking financial security’ doesn’t mean the multitude of different meanings several posters would like to say it does, distorting it’s plain meaning. By someone providing ‘financial security’ to someone else means the recipient has no more financial responsibilities, for the provider will pay for them. My issue is that in seeking a guy to provide freedom from financial wants, he has no one to help carry the financial burden if something occurred (health problem, job loss, whatever). All burden, little benefit.
“You spend money for each other because you love them, not as some sort of balance sheet where each person must put in a perfectly equal amounts or someone’s being used.”
– My issue is the spending is a precondition to love from one side… And as long as money’s on the table, a balance sheet approach should be used so the payor isn’t…. business is business.
A-L says
RE: Vino’s #115
Our disagreement here on financial security reminds me of our debate about the strong women who still seek protection. Be that as it may, let me define financial security as insulation from financial catastrophe (homelessness, bankruptcy, whatever). It helps to cushion any blows, and though it doesn’t mean the two of you will be impervious to financial damage, you will both be able to withstand more damage without breaking. BOTH people get this from a relationship (note I did say this in my #113 as well). If my significant other loses his job, then I’ll be supporting us until he finds another one. If I start having health problems and can’t work for awhile, he’ll be the one to help keep us going. I fail to see how this is not mutually beneficial.
As far as spending as a precondition to love goes, the OPs letter is unclear about the exact financial breakdown in their relationship. But if I’m in a long-term relationship with a guy I expect there to be giving on both sides. I would feel hurt if he never paid for something just because he wanted to, just as I expect to pay for things simply because I want to. I would say it’s more an effect of love rather than a precondition to it.
Joe says
A-L, I don’t think you are really talking about gaining financial security as much as you are talking about spreading out financial risk.
vino says
Right, Joe.
The very definition of the term ‘financial security’ is to have freedom from financial risk or financial want. IOW, no risk to the recipient, since it’s assumed by the security provider. These ever-changing definitions simply distort the plain meaning of what it means when someone says “I seek financial security from my man/woman.” Simply put, it means you want someone to pay for you, so you don’t have to.
As I said before, I don’t disagree with A-L’s approach that each party should be financially responsible as being mutually beneficial. I do disagree with the notion (not that A-L specifically advocates this) that one party is more responsible for finances, as it results more benefit to one at the other’s expense.
I’m simply saying and acknowledging that money & spending (on her) ARE preconditions to relationships/marriage. There’s a thread – who pays for 1st date. Guys do & are expected to. As is noted by other posters above, they want a guy to provide them financial security (not the tortured now-debunked ever-changing definitions) before marriage, certainly (and likely relationships). I know A-L wants to say paying it’s an effect of love, but that simply isn’t how it operates in reality. In reality, it IS a precondition to love. It ain’t a complaint. It’s an observation.
With that observation, what do you do? As is perfectly clear to most readers, I think in this day & age of equality that people who expect their suitors to provide them monetary benefits simply want benefits that they themselves do not want to offer (and are able to, more importantly). In wanting (nay, demanding in many cases) something they aren’t willing to give, I think they show very selfish tendencies and are, as a result, poor relationship and marriage candidates. Unfortunately, these seem to be the majority.
There’s some gold out there, but you gotta sift a lotta dirty water to get the nuggets.. and be patient.
JerseyGirl says
Vino #115:
– You rationalize under biology that it’s okay to seek a provider. Let’s go with that. Under biology, man value beauty, youth, and fertility. So guys are perfectly justified in choosing women who are under 30 and pretty, without apology. Of course, men who do that are derided as cradle robbing swine
– keeping with the it’s okay under biology theme, older women are less valuable then as mates because they are older, less attractive (to men), and less fertile. Therefore their potential providers should pay far, far less for them, and some really snarky people could say at some point, they should pay the men to take them (I’m not saying that at all!).
———————————————————————————–
Well, I hate to tell you Vino but women already get judged as being less valuable for aging. We get the message from men and we get the message from the media. There are a lot of men out there that do infact go for younger women. Aging isn’t anything we can help but we still get judged for it. Men aren’t looking magazines of well preserved 40 year olds. They are looking at magazines of over-done 20 year olds. So if you think your pointing out some big great argument, you are only kidding yourself. Men aren’t exactly kind in this regard, as you displayed yourself with even having the idea of saying that women should be paying women to take them out. At the end of the day, despite all your complaining, in this world and day and age, men still have it 10 times easier. Because men can infact get older and still be considered worthy of sex and love and companionship and for women that isn’t the reality. Because men do consider us worthless based on our age. Don’t worry though, I don’t expect you to care much about that.
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Vino #115:
– Also, you and others speak of sharing lives and a partnership. I’m not trying to be obstinate, but I still haven’t heard why guys should pay someone who is bringing far less to the supposed partnership. What specifically is offered to make it a partnership? That’s a business term, so let’s analyze it as such.
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Wrong. “Partnership” isn’t just a business term. Especially when discussing relationships. “Partnership” is about the relationship between two people. And who are you to say that someone who doesn’t bring as much money to the table is bringing less? How do you know what they do that the other partner might not. I don’t know about you but I don’t want a relationship where we devide all the tasks up equally and only worry about “our” side. I want one where I can display my strengths and he can display his and my weakness can be made up for in his strength and vice versa.
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Vino 115#:
My analytical issue is that under the scenario, the payor (provider) is the only one with additional responsibility. She has none, and in fact is more liberated. He less so. Please address that. No one does, unsurprisingly.
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Who sais she is more liberated and he is less so? Who does what another person contributes to a partnership that makes up for the other person. She could be doing most of the house work for all you know or providing something else that he greatly needs that you can’t buy with money. Maybe it’s you that is the gold-digger since you are clearly very concerned about where every last little dime goes compared to what you get in return money wise.
girl-with-glasses says
@Vino #118
If I understand your point, I think the reason the two sexes are having so much trouble is due to the pervasive influence of feminism. Every one is so individualistic these days. Marriage requires a different mindset. Words like ‘forever’ and ‘sacrifice’ come to mind. Your anger, being representative of the male’s view, is that women can’t have it both ways. It’s not like you can go your own way as a women, never caring about men, only seeing them as competitors or as sexual flings, and then want to get married, and have the attendant legal alimony and divorce costs. It ensures that women with individualistic view points before marriage, probably are seen to possess mercenary traits that scare men. I think we’re at an historical impasse, but people still need to have children, and people do long for marriage. I think in your view, if a woman had equitable intentions in terms of the financial responsibilities of the marriage, then some of marriage’s prior spiritual and companionate basis would be restored, against the damages done by society and the current legal system.
vino says
Re JG’s #119:
After reading your post, I wonder if we read the same language. I’m not going to argue with you, particularly since you like to personally insult me by calling me a complaining goldigger (which is actually funny) in response to my points. But if that’s how you handle differing points of view in your life, more power to ya.
On the subject of liberation, if you and I are hiking with 10-pound packs. If I agree to carry your 10-pound pack, you are liberated from having to carry it, and I have the burden of doing so. You are more free to move, unburdened by such weight.
_____
Re: GWG’s #120
“Your anger, being representative of the male’s view, is that women can’t have it both ways. ”
– I’m not angry. I’m actually quite puzzled why people react so vituperatively to what is as plain as day (and actually quite unjust). Let’s not make the mistake of trying to incorrectly characterize me as angry just b/c the content of what said is uncomfortable to many.
– I don’t care what influence feminism may or may not have, so let’s not assume I am indicting feminism. I’m looking at what people actually do, and the playing field where those actions unfold.
“I think in your view, if a woman had equitable intentions in terms of the financial responsibilities of the marriage, then some of marriage’s prior spiritual and companionate basis would be restored, against the damages done by society and the current legal system.”
– That puts the cart before the horse. The current legal system provides the conditions and hammer that actually encourages and rewards less-than-altruistic intent. IOW, I don’t care how nice someone’s initial companionate basis is, the fact is that once you opt into the system, she can simply change her mind. A bait and switch, if you will. This is something I tell a friend, who wants a foreign wife to avoid (he thinks) the issues we’re discussing here.
– I’m not trying to sound cynical and defeatist. Quite the contrary. I do believe there are many good men & women out there and that good, successful long term relationships are a good, laudable thing to achieve. You just need not marry for it. As much as many readers may not want to hear this, more guys are reaching this conclusion.
“Marriage requires a different mindset. Words like forever and sacrifice come to mind.”
– It’s a contract, voidable at either party’s discretion, so ‘forever’ is off the table. That wasn’t always the case. And since guys are paying 96% of the alimony after giving 1/2, the ‘sacrifice’ definitely exists.
“It’s not like you can go your own way as a women, never caring about men, only seeing them as competitors or as sexual flings…”
– I’m not trying to be argumentative, but you can. That’s one of my points. You have the freedom to do that, and you see very successful women in their 30’s and up doing just that, often because they don’t want the financial risks of marriage.
“I think we’re at an historical impasse, but people still need to have children, and people do long for marriage.”
– This is going to appear rough to many PC-addled eyes, but we’re actually not at such an impasse. We are in the midst of a seismic demographic shift where the well-educated, higher earning folks are reproducing at something like 1.3-1.5 kids per couple, where the high school diploma and under crowd (think immigrant, though not in all cases) are reproducing something like 5.1 per couple. IOW, the ‘lower classes’ are expanding rapidly while the ‘upper’ isn’t. I don’t recall the stat source…
Michael says
One reason men might prefer going after women in their twenties is because women that age are less likely to have been divorced or have kids.
Curly Girl says
Blah blah, blah blah, blah blah, blah blah.
girl-with-glasses says
@Vino #121
As usual, your reasoning sounds impeccable. But you also sound like a man who’s never really been in love, nor have expectations of having it happen in the future. I guess I was wrong to attribute anger to your response, but how about ‘resigned’? I’m not trying to be argumentative or to instigate, but yes, current day marriage is a legal construct more than anything else, and to anyone with an ounce of romanticism, that idea is more of an abomination than anythings. Yes, these are only my feelings, and not an argument based on facts, statistics, or reality based evidence. I don’t see how something like marriage can be based on current day principles though, but it’s still a necessity (maybe it’s the traditional female view), that’s why I’m curious about how the other half across the aisle sees things. I think I’m not conveying my sentiment very well, but I do understand that men do want to marry their best friends, not someone who can potentially (and this is statistically likely) become the most damaging influence on their lives. To your point that you know many people who do have good working long term relationships, just see no need for marriage, I need to ponder that. But off-the-cuff, it strikes me wrong somehow, I’m not going to put forth the exorbitant emotional, physical, & mental effort to take care of and be loyal to someone without a prior committment from them, and to me, it still means marriage. I do agree with you the current legal system in regards to marriage is a monstrosity though, but I think that’s something that can be mitigated between the two parties through a prenupt.
Helen says
Girl-with-glasses: you seem very sympathetic and smart. Thanks for sharing.
My own experience agrees with your conclusion. I have been with (am with) men who really love me, and I could not get them to STOP giving to me constantly. Whether it was paying for a meal or coffee, helping me with tasks around the home, offering help in any way – they just wanted to keep on providing. They weren’t sitting there thinking how much I owed them, what they expected in return, anticipating rejection on my part… they just loved me and gave to me out of the generosity of that love.
I have also been with calculating men, men who insist on their rights and their “fair share” regarding meals, tiny purchases, etc. Inevitably, they did not really love me (they loved themselves far better), and I found it pretty much impossible to admire them as men and to open up my heart to them.
Love makes us generous and irrational. At least in the US, we tend to marry for love, and that implies that we enter marriage with generosity and some degree of irrationality.
JerseyGirl says
Vino #121:
On the subject of liberation, if you and I are hiking with 10-pound packs. If I agree to carry your 10-pound pack, you are liberated from having to carry it, and I have the burden of doing so. You are more free to move, unburdened by such weight.
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Considering the fact that I weight all of 90 pounds and have the muscle mass of a hampster compared to what most men have, I would have respect for a man that picked up my all of 10-pound pack to help me out. That’s a man that understands that his partner doesn’t have to match him tit for tat. That he can be a partner to someone that doesn’t have the same strengths he might. And vice versa. But they can still be equals. He can give his stength and she can give something else. She might not be able to provide strength in the same terms he does but it doesn’t mean the pay off doesn’t equal out.
Men judge women pretty harshly on their age and looks. And ususally most men are more then happy to reap the benefits of a beautiful woman. The same can easily be said for women when it comes to men and finances. One isn’t more noble then the other. And women are more times less concerned with looks then men are just as men are less concerned with what a woman makes then women are with what a man makes.
vino says
@ GWG –
I don’t think it wise to reveal much about oneself here, for there are many posters who will use that to attack you personally (see #119, #123), rather than what is said. That said, I have been in love, more than once.
“To your point . . . just see no need for marriage, I need to ponder that. But off-the-cuff, it strikes me wrong somehow, I’m not going to put forth the exorbitant emotional, physical, & mental effort to take care of and be loyal to someone without a prior committment from them, and to me, it still means marriage.”
– My point is that you can have all of the great stuff of a good relationship, emotional support, love, intimacy, etc… Money doesn’t enter into those things. Remember 1st love? Where was money for that? (loaded question, btw). In today’s society where women have zero barriers to educational and work opportunities, there is zero reason to insist on financial support as a precondition to a relationship (either one demanding support). That’s step one. All of the talk about this simply boils down to someone expecting to and demanding something from someone they aren’t willing to give or provide in return, though perfectly capable and able to do so. I don’t find that reasonable.
– Step 2 is that if you do lose your mind and agree to marriage, it’s nonsensical to opt into a legal system guaranteed to redistribute your earnings. It’s about love, right? I’ve even had women tell me that on some level, they didn’t respect their husbands as much because the knowingly put themselves in a weaker position legally. Nice, huh? Prenups are nonsensical also. There are many steps involved, judges hate them & look to throw them out in general (on one of the many steps), and most importantly, it’s still a bloody contract where you are paying one side…. Like I said above, as a guy, you’re always supposed to pay for it… Cynical sounding, yet true.
– Reading through the comments on this thread, you see a pattern emerge. If it’s supposed to be about love (massive emotional, mental, and physical support), it SHOULD be about love. But it so often isn’t.
– Here’s the disconnect I have, and I’m not picking on Helen’s #125 – What I almost never see is a corresponding generosity from most women like Helen alludes she’s received from men. I even mentioned it earlier re: the OP. What I see most posters demanding from guys in general that ‘in a relationship it’s about giving, sacrifice and generosity.’ (or something close to that.) This is usually in the context of money.
– Let’s apply the same standard the other direction. I rarely, if ever, see the giving, sacrifice and generosity in the other direction (you rarely hear specifically what ‘giving’ and ‘generous’ things they do for the monetary demands). For, if you are demanding someone give you more money (or money’s worth), you sure aren’t by definition ‘giving’ of that aspect in a relationship. So what else is offered? Sacrifice? What is the sacrifice? You sacrificed other guys for this one? Didn’t the same also occur?
See where I’m going with this?
I say if you want to love, then do it. It ceases to be love once a bill is presented for it.
girl-with-glasses says
@Helen #125
Thank you for the unexpected compliment. I’ve never been described as ‘sympathetic and smart’. Half the time I’m posting in a semi pms-ing, irritated, semi-coherent mood. Also, I don’t express myself verbally very well, and tend to not care for all-around, well-thought out arguments, preferring my own arbitrary opinions instead.
I liked how you describe your relations with men. Sadly, even if I were sympathetic and nice, I suspect a successful relationship with the opposite sex might require something more. Nevertheless, men can be wonderful, and human relationships can be surprisingly worthwhile and endearing. But generally, my attitude is mellower than say when I was in my college years. I think the passage of time has been the most important in gaining a healthier perspective. Thank you, I definitely find hearing a positive view from a fellow female in regards to relations with men cheering.
LK says
Here’s a counterexample: My last relationship ended because we were unable to resolve some large differences that were preventing us from being able to get engaged.
One of the issues was that he clearly viewed my career as a secondary consideration to his career. The problem is that his career demanded chronic prolonged absences from home, and when we were together I was making approximately twice his income.
So, when I considered all these factors, I couldn’t understand how we could justify prioritizing his career over mine. His career would require much more support from our family due to the extended absences, and it provides fewer financial resources. So why should I scale back my career to something more boring, less lucrative and less demanding to support a situation that, in my view, is a net drawback to us as a family. (Note: I considered the extended absences a big inconvenience while it’s just me, but a serious hardship once children are involved.)
So, just as Vino is trying to screen out women who will scam him for his money, I trying to screen out men with my ex’s retro attitude about women’s careers.
I’d like to add that I would consider holding the “secondary career” if I thought that the net effect was a benefit for my family. But in this case we could not agree on what would be the best decision. Prioritizing his career would have required being open to relocation as well as having the flexibility to effectively be a single parent for long stretches.
Kristyn says
When I’m in love, I do things for the other person. It could be anything; picking up their favorite ice cream on a whim or making their favorite dinner, or helping with something around their house, getting tickets to an event they are interested in. The point is it is going to be based on THEM. Its hard to sit here and say “well, i do this and this and this” because it is all based on the individuals in the relationship. Now, I could say “I buy them tickets to a play I’ve been wanting to see” but thats about me. And for me, being in love makes me think about THEM.
If I were in a committed relationship and IF my SO had a financial bind and I were in the position to help out, I most certainly would, without strings, expectation of payback, or “what am I getting out of it” questions. I would hope this would go both ways.
I suppose the idea of marriage or a LTR is about a partnership; one where we would share the good times and the bad times together and be there to help support the other in the ways that we are able. We would each bring our strengths (and weaknesses) to the relationship.
This is what people mean when they say there are other things they bring to a relationship.
Mary says
Vino,
If a man wants a woman to give her all to a relationship, child rearing, and a home, etc. then he has to make that possible. All this takes a lot of time and energy and it’s not like women have an unlimited supply.
A-L says
Yes, men give half of their earnings to their spouse during marriage. But so do women. And as stated in my #125 from the I’m in my 30s and I don’t want to waste my time thread 25% of working women earn more than their husband, so it’s not always the women who comes out financially ahead within marriage.
Vino wrote, My point is that you can have all of the great stuff of a good relationship, emotional support, love, intimacy, etc Money doesn’t enter into those things.
Vino’s right. But, for most women at least, all of those good things are enhanced by marriage. You have made a commitment and publicly stated before your friends and family that you’re in it for the long haul. I’d say this is incredibly liberating emotionally, and allows for a significantly stronger bond than when the two of you were just dating exclusively.
Vino wrote, I rarely, if ever, see the giving, sacrifice and generosity in the other direction (you rarely hear specifically what giving and generous things they do for the monetary demands).
I’ll use the classic example, because this is probably true of the majority of relationships out there. My boyfriend almost always pays when we go out to eat, at his insistence. But I’ll cook us dinner, often spending several hours for each one. So I probably spend less monetarily for each meal than he does, but then you should also consider the extra time I put forth in preparing it.
Other examples: planning vacations and making all of the arrangements, saving significant amounts of money; providing chauffeuring service for several days while a car’s in the shop; taking the time to research answers for random questions in the middle of the day; giving massages after stressful days None of these things are big financial burdens, but they do take time.
As is probably obvious from my other posts, I do think women contribute financially as well, but they also are generous in non-financial respects as well. Though I agree with Vino that some women are self-centered and money-hungry and don’t do anything for the relationship besides look like a pretty trophy, I think it’s definitely a minority, and that the majority are both financially and emotionally generous.
vino says
@ LK’s 129 –
– We may not agree on all points, but I like your posts. In any event, the common thread I see between what I am saying women generally do in dating/marriage and your experience is that you are looking to maximize your financial opportunities within the marriage realm. Of course, the difference is that you are the one willing to provide it. Kudos. Though, it isn’t without challenges (much smaller pool of guys).
@ Kristen’s 130 –
– I hear ya, and don’t disagree with what you are saying. However, I’m saying something different – that most women are seeking/demanding ‘financial security’ from guys as a prerequisite to any LTR with them. And I don’t disagree with the way you verbalize partnership in a relationship context, it’s just that under what we’re discussing, there is no ‘partnership’ w/o him 1st providing the dough. I just don’t think that is an acceptable paradigm. And if money’s on the table, the partnership should be analyzed like a business partnership – the way marriages have historically been viewed. Who brings what value.
@Mary’s 131 –
– Can you be more specific about “woman to give her all” to a relationship? What specifically is she giving? More to the point, what is she giving that he should pay for it? Companionship? He’s giving that too. Love? He’s giving that too. The generalization unfortunately doesn’t say much.
@A-L’s 132 –
– Not to be argumentative, ’cause your statement “25% of working women earn more than their husband, so it’s not always the women who comes out financially ahead within marriage.” is true on its face. But, women only pay 4% of the alimony, though earning more a quarter of the time. You’d think that in a marginally fair system those #s would be closer.
“But, for most women at least… and allows for a significantly stronger bond than when the two of you were just dating exclusively.”
– The publicly stated commitment isn’t really a commitment, if you can leave without any more reason than boredom. That just how it is, not that I like it or saying it. I know you think incredibly liberating emotionally, and I would think that too if I stood to gain more (what happens by seeking ‘financial security’). However, when you look at the flip side, it simply isn’t that liberating, taking on someone else’s adult burdens.
– Also, I don’t want to tit-for-tat on the who does more scheduling or cooking. What about his washing the cars, mowing the lawns, taking out garbage, etc? Is that not generous also? I think all of that stuff tends to wash itself out as the daily stuff of living. This leads to 2 thoughts – One. If it does wash out, I don’t see a basis for the financial prerequisite demands. If it doesn’t wash itself out, then value it & pay for it.
– BTW, I do think women contribute financially as well, but not nearly to the scale they demand and expect in return. I think reading the posts on the whole confirms this. I am not saying they lack generosity in non-financial respects totally, but I don’t think they value the other side’s similar contributions equally and, quite frankly, over-value what the non-financial aspects are.
Let me reiterate, I think relationships are a good thing. I think they should be sought. I think that marriage is not the final destination for a relationship, though. As I’ve noted above and in other places, the risks, burdens and costs are simply not worth it. I wish it weren’t so. The thing is, I read the responses and see not one scrap of empathy or understanding for what I (and a few others) have said. I’m not expecting it. You don’t even hear denials that’s it isn’t a great deal for guys. Essentially what I’m hearing is, “So what vino. Shut up, suck it up, and keep paying. You shouldn’t mind this.”
Guess I was always contrarian, but that sounds like a bad deal for me and not something that actually has my best interests at heart rather than their own. Lord knows I wish I were wrong.
girl-with-glasses says
@vino #127
You are obviously very intelligent, I do concede with your reasoning. For instance, on the legal system issue , which at this point I do see as granting what amounts to total legal unaccountability to the woman in a marriage. I no longer find it possible to argue against the male view on this basis, the factual objective one.
So with a little indulgence on your side, I’d like to make an argument on a purely emotional side. You seem to indicate that you perceive the male to be usually the more generous, responsible, and generally more loving party in the relationship. To a certain extent, I’ll admit that’s also true. I do feel that lads are sweet and generous creatures by nature. But there’s one point of contention that I want to make (probably the last one before the fort is given up)…and it’s that men don’t seem to feel compassion for women, or an understanding of their current plight. It’s a possibility, though too naive or ideal to ever come true, that if men had behaved with more kindness in the first place, women would not have resorted to such mercenary, and truly heart-wrentching tactics in the divorce courts. And believe me, when I say this will never come about, I really mean never , because haha, sex, exists. But back to my main point, your lack of understanding of women.
Let me use as an example, your apparent anger towards the segment of female population know as ‘golddiggers’. Your condemnation of them seem to indicate your hatred and contempt of them as less than truly human, but they were also made and not born this way, and it happened quite logical and naturally.
Women, like men, are social creatures, we want to live up to cultural standards. You indicated previously your lack of interest in feminism, which is fine and good, but feminism does affect women, all of whom have been told they should have both a career and family, and if not effortlessly, atleast while maintaining their youthful appearance. On top of this absurd superwomanish notion, nature and biology has seen to it that her childbearing years are in her 20s and 30s.
A man starts truly becoming a man and an adult member of society at this age, but in many ways, women are told they have to have absolutely *everything* in place by this age. Can you imagine, being out of college, not really knowing a single thing about the world, but feeling like you have 5 years to become the perfect person, or otherwise you lose you chance forever? I’m not blaming anyone, just pointing out nature and society are hard on women.
Yes, I do understand men are under pressure as well, but in general, you can afford to be single minded in pursuit of that one thing that will lead you to career glory, which will lead to money, which will lead to a good sex life and marriage prospects, and the possibily (though gradually becoming slimmer and possibily nonexistent) of a happy family life.
And as we all know, which has been debated ad naseum on this forum, men don’t really care what a woman’s career achievements are.
So what’s a girl to do? After all, in this society, cash value is still a measure of a person’s success. Why invest time and effort in a career achievement, which won’t pay off and will just detract from her primary biological needs, why not make a career of catching a rich man? Is this less than an noble endeavor? Of course, but are men so innocent? With the present highly sexual and pornofied culture, in the mating market, a woman might feel she has to pull out all the stops sexually and attractiveness-wise anyways. Men, with their hair-trigger sexual responses, not to mention, good lord, eventual and increasingly quicker habituation and ever present need for variety, what smart girl really thinks she has a chance at long lasting, faithful, happy relationship anyways? Does this make her sad and weak? Of course, but we’re talking about someone in her early to mid twenties.
No matter what other women shout about career advancement, I don’t see how the majority will achieve it. The majority of advancing careers need high concentration of mathematical and engineering ability. If a woman is thinking of becoming an artist, it’s even harder, in my opinion.
Do you see why women become golddiggers? Most of them never had a chance to begin with.
But for women who aren’t, is it so wrong to expect that the one person who claims to love them, to want to provide shelter, legal and financial, as a bulwark against the world? Does she lose sight of the man in the relationship? Sadly yes. I understand your avoidance of golddiggers, they do bring nothing but ruin. But it’s tough being a woman, and so in trying to form a long lasting relationship with a man, a lot of tangent issues come up.
So final question, with no financial or legal support, do you really think men support women emotionally?
A-L says
RE: Vino’s #133
What percentage of husbands get custody of the children in a divorce? Because I suspect one reason why 25% of women earn more than men do but only 4% of women pay alimony/child support is that usually the women are the ones who have the primary responsibility of raising the children and the courts expect the father to continue to contribute toward their child’s upbringing, even if they earn less than the wife. I also recall in some thread that I’m too tired to search for that we both speculated that the primary risk for a man is not marriage, but rather, a marriage with children as most courts are no longer doing alimony (barring if you’ve been married to a guy for 40 years and been a housewife the whole time).
As far as the breakdown of chores, a couple of things. If you’re in an exclusive but not live-in relationship each person takes care of their own garbage, car washing, vacuuming, etc. So if you’re cooking, yes it really is just for the other person. I eat a lot of cereal for dinner when my boyfriend’s not around so don’t say I’d be cooking anyway. If you’re married there are far more time-consuming chores relegated to the female than to the male. And I didn’t mention any financial things because you were asking about the nonfinancial (or at least that’s how I read it).
But basically I think we have a different way of seeing life. I run across a lot of men in my life. Men who abuse their children or wives. Men who repeatedly have affairs. Men who don’t allow their significant other to have any contact with the opposite sex. Men who won’t let their significant other make any kind of joking comment about them. Men who still live with their parents and haven’t had a real job in years. Men who physically intimidate sed parents. I know lots of men like this, and at the moment I’m actually almost frightened when I start thinking about how many men of this type I actually interact with. Even though I know a scarily large number of guys like this, I believe that most men really are good guys.
That’s where we’re different. You’ve run across a lot of women who have only married for the money, knowing they’re going to divorce the guy. You’ve seen women claim to be abused when nobody’s even lain a finger on them. You’ve seen women accept a date only because she wanted a free meal. You’ve seen women spend small (or large) fortunes with all their free time while their husbands slave away at work paying for all their expenses including maids and cooks. From your posts it appears that you, however, feel that it’s the majority of women who are like this and there’s only a small slice of womankind that has any virtue left.
And I think that’s why you encounter such defensiveness among the female posters here. I expect that most women would agree with you that the judicial system needs to be reworked in terms of divorce, that there are women who are only in it for the money, and that men bear the brunt of the financial demands of a relationship, at least in the beginning. But saying that the vast majority of women are this way probably hurts your argument more than it helps it, because when most women read that they know that most of the women they know are not like that.
RE: Girl-With-Glasses #134
Sorry, but I’m not buying it. I’m a 28 (almost 29!) year old female and according to this theory I should be agonizing over how to maximize my career, romantic relationship, children, and appearance and perhaps beginning to think about golddigging my way out of this scary big hole I’m in. Perhaps your theory may have been true 30+ years ago but I don’t think that’s the case today.
girl-with-glasses says
@A-L #135
Sorry, I wasn’t trying to speak for all women, maybe it did come out more theory-ish than what I would’ve wanted. I was trying to speak up for ‘golddiggers’, lord knows why now, but just to say even some women who fall into that category might be more complex and warrant more than cursory disregard. I probably took a hypothetical way too far…
Mary says
Doing things such as deep regular cleaning and Betty Crocker cooking really takes a lot of time. Also doing things such as laundry, dry cleaning, dinner parties, decorating, landscaping, taking care of pets, bills, appointments, shopping and a whole list of other things too numerous to list. Then have a husband and children (and maybe the relatives too) who need attention and to be listened to. Also if you have an emergency or even have a doctor’s appointment what happens if you both work and can’t get off work, or can’t get there for awhile? Anways, the man creates an opportunity to have a woman all to himself and not have to worry about someone else’s needs coming first. Some guys really like this.
Joe says
A-L, what would your boyfriend be eating for dinner if you didn’t cook anything for him?
vino says
Re: Mary#137-
Some guys do like what you posit. There are lots of them. I’ve never said there weren’t. I’m simply noting that the numbers of them are dwindling (over 1/2 couples are cohabitating now, not marrying. And rising).
And fyi, I haven’t met anyone under 40 doing regular deep cleaning or Betty Crocker cooking. Ever. The rest of the stuff I can do myself quite easily (and do often re: deep cleaning), and most importantly, ain’t worth 1/2 my income. Not. Even. Close.
Re: A-L’s #135:
Big picture – All I’m basically saying is that when you look at the starting point of dating to the end goal of marriage, ladies in general demand more from the guy in very material terms at all stages of the process than they are willing to give. IOW, their approach is “what’s the benefit to me” All the facts support this.
You are actually mistaken re: assumptions in lumping alimony & child support together for custody. Alimony & CS are 2 different things and are treated as such. Alimony exists where there are no kids. It’s based, among other things, on the standard of living enjoyed during the marriage. Blech. So if you decide to leave me, I have to keep you in the same (or close to it) standard you enjoyed during marriage? You gotta be kidding me. Again, all burden to me, all benefit to you (assuming you married up economically).
The chore breakdown stuff is nonsensical. If you read above, they are given as justifications for demanding that guys provide ‘financial security.’ IOW, pay for household chores. I think men in marriages do tons of chores too, washing out the argument for paying wives for household chores. And if you do want to be paid for it, let’s value it, and his chores, and see the difference. I can guarantee you it ain’t much difference, and is even more nonsensical to demand financial security for household chores the more money he makes.
Honestly, I don’t get where you are coming from with the paragraph re all the bad things you’ve seen guys do. BTW, I’ve seen much the same, particularly the abuse things you mention. So what? I’m not saying seeking money in dating/marriage is inherently bad. It’s been around for thousands of years. It just is.
I’m saying a few different things. I’m saying that where you can earn the same money for the same work there is no longer a basis to seek money. I’m saying that those who do in the 21st century care more about their own benefits and less about their prospective partner’s. I’m saying that when you actually look at the facts, at all stages of dating & marriage where the guy is paying, there simply isn’t sufficient value for the high risk proposition that is marriage. I’m saying that, in the end, women ‘take’ and expect to give as little as possible at all stages of dating & marriage. They are doing what benefits them. This isn’t an indictment. It’s simple marketplace behavior supported by the facts.
And make no mistake, sex and mating/dating is a market.
Of course I’m vilified for daring to mention this, and actually analyzing what people do withing this market. All I’m saying is that once you analyze the benefits and burdens of dating & marriage as a guy, not marrying benefits me as a guy. The burdens & risks outweigh the potential relatively few benefits.
And saying “Not all are that way” simply doesn’t work. There’s no reliable way to determine that. Divorce court is chock full of people who said “I’d never do that”
And again, I’m not seeing (nor expect to) an acknowledgment of any validity to what I’m saying. All I see are tortured justifications of doing chores (that’s weak, btw), or trying to intimate I am somehow angry and only focusing on the negative. All the while ignoring the factual basis for everything I’m saying. BTW this tells me that those who do so only really do care about their benefits derived from someone’s expense, and not at all for the burdens of the provider of the benefits.
I guess this will play out in higher numbers cohabitating, with increased out-of-wedlock births (already high), and reduced births among the more educated populace. You’re already seeing this. On a smaller level, you’ll see more apparent good dating/marriage guys & gals in their 30’s with good jobs who date around.
I’m not saying any of this is great for society as a whole, but when the benefits and burdens of marriage are so out of whack, people will do what benefits them more. It ain’t more complicated than that really.
LK says
Vino said, “We may not agree on all points, but I like your posts. In any event, the common thread I see between what I am saying women generally do in dating/marriage and your experience is that you are looking to maximize your financial opportunities within the marriage realm. Of course, the difference is that you are the one willing to provide it. Kudos. Though, it isn’t without challenges (much smaller pool of guys).”
Well, I’m looking to optimize my financial opportunities in the context of balancing them with the other facets of my life. But I am willing to roll up my sleeves and put in the effort required to do so. And I would expect the same thing of my partner. Do you really think it’s such a small pool of guys who feel that way too?!! Oye, no wonder I’m still single! 😉
“Guess I was always contrarian, but that sounds like a bad deal for me and not something that actually has my best interests at heart rather than their own. Lord knows I wish I were wrong.”
Vino, forgive me if have said this before, but I’m guessing based on your comments that you don’t want to have kids. If you don’t want kids, then a lot of these sharing-of-financial-resources issues do become irrelevant. In that context, I can understand a lot of your points. Kids require so much time and attention that in my opinion a different level of partnership and division of labor is required, and this shifts around a lot of elements in the equation. If the woman in a partnership is the only one who wants kids and expects her husband to be the sugar daddy, then your points CERTAINLY make sense. But I don’t understand why a man would agree to have kids under those circumstances. I assume that both parties enter into the spawning process in good faith. Maybe that’s an unrealistic assumption.
Mary says
Vino,
If you really care about someone, then you’ll take a leap of faith. If you don’t, then you won’t. So a third option of living together is not really necessary and is off the table, at least for many. Now it’s not like you can’t do a prenuptual or discuss how you’ll be spending money first.
vino says
Re: LK’s 140:
“Well, I’m looking to optimize my financial opportunities in the context of balancing them with the other facets of my life. But I am willing to roll up my sleeves and put in the effort required to do so. And I would expect the same thing of my partner. Do you really think it’s such a small pool of guys who feel that way too?!! Oye, no wonder I’m still single! ;-)”
– Not too sure you got what was meant by the quote you referenced. Then again, there wasn’t much explanation behind the smaller pool comment. I gather from your situation you described earlier that you made notably more than your bf/ex-bf. I’m going to put forth 2 basic things I believe (inferred from the few known facts) are in play.
– First, if I recall your post (not gonna scroll up & try to find & re-read), the essence of the situation was that if you were to marry & raise a family, he had to give up his career dreams, since you made more $$. Most guys worth their salt shouldn’t give up their dreams, and wouldn’t. Also, the approach seemed a bit, well, ‘my way or the highway.’ Sheer guess, but I bet he didn’t love that either, particularly as a preview to marriage where he’d have to depend on you… These are but a few pitfalls of successful women dating & marrying less financially successful guys.
– And in every single instance I know of where she did make more (couple dozen), it was an unmitigated disaster. She began to resent financially carrying him because, you know, he’s the one that should be doing the carrying. Then it gets ugly. That’s just what I’ve seen.
– Second, as this thread (and all known facts) indicates, most women are seeking some type of financial security from their partner. I think in general (not saying you do) most detest the prospect of possibly financially supporting a guy. Hence, seeking the provider. I don’t think this changes no matter how much she makes, so the $150k/yr lawyer will seek the $250k & up guy… Mathematically, if you are financially successful (top 20+%), it stands to reason there is a smaller number of available guys who make the same or more, particularly once you factor out the already married ones.
– So it isn’t about a small pool of guys “willing to roll up (their) sleeves” and put in the effort required to have a marriage and family. It isn’t about rolling up sleeves. It’s about the likely small number of guys that are successful where both of your career and family dreams align to create the conditions where both of you will be happy because your joint dreams can be realized, not just one of your dreams.
– I’ve been pretty open about not wanting kids. That said, the sharing-of-financial-resources issues even with kids to me is still unreasonable. Here’s why.
— You can do everything men can do career-wise. LK, you yourself prove this.
— I keep coming to the family laws, ’cause that’s where all of this plays out. If I agree to take care of you and progeny and you later leave because you are bored (so much for ‘commitment’ and ‘rolling up sleeves’), you most often (except in rare cases indeed) take the kids. You get 1/2, alimony and child support (tax-free to recipient, btw). So you get my kids and my money. Patently unjust. Guys who may want kids shouldn’t opt into a system where this can even happen once (and it happens A LOT every day). I understand that ain’t reality, so the only choice is not to play. Make me king for a day & I’d abolish gov’t intrusion into families, including child support.
— Again, the financial resources argument derived from a time where ladies couldn’t even get an education, let alone be able to go out and earn a living. That’s gone by way of the dodo.
“Kids require so much time and attention that in my opinion a different level of partnership and division of labor is required, and this shifts around a lot of elements in the equation.”
— I don’t disagree with this in theory, but in reality, where you can later change your mind (and enforced by the state) about the ‘partnership’ and any element in the equation, I’m stuck with no choice.
– “I assume that both parties enter into the spawning process in good faith. Maybe that’s an unrealistic assumption.”
— In many cases it is good faith. I’d say the majority. But many aren’t. You know that doctors and some therapists estimate that anywhere from 10-25% (I’d say closer to 10%) of kids’ fathers aren’t really the biological fathers. Google paternity fraud & poke around. It’s fascinating (& disconcerting). Ever wonder why there isn’t already mandatory automatic genetic paternity testing at birth?
– Not trying to be argumentative, but I still don’t see a great benefit to me as a guy. Ladies don’t need guys financially nowadays. They aren’t necessary to have kids (see high single mother birth rate). And the only rationalization I see is really to help make mom’s life easier (assuming kids are in the mix). Aside from having a child (assuming guy wants one), why does she need to be paid for it? It makes no sense logically. Plus, he has far greater number of burdens and risks, with relatively few benefits (most of which I’m still trying to see).
– I guess what I’m conveying is that when it comes to financial ties and marriage, there is no reason to do it at all. It is too expensive and risky a proposition. It’s like asking me to buy a really expensive car that has a 50% or better chance of blowing up every time I start the ignition.
Have a relationship where you love each other? Yep. Have a relationship where you confide in and encourage each other? Heck yea. Have a relationship where one pays the other to be there? Nope.
JerseyGirl says
All in all, I don’t think most women are interested in investing time and energy into men that seem to think women have it so easy and men are the only ones that face hardships and trials in the dating world. I don’t think most women aren’t interested in investing time in men that appear to be selfish with any part of themselves. Whether that be their money, love, or faith in women in general.
I would say that 95% of women aren’t even close to being “gold-diggers”. However, lets not confuse “gold-diggers” with the very real and legitimate fact that women DO want a man that can and will provide for her. I think the main clause here is not how much money a man has but his willingingness to share himself. Because at the end of the day, a man that wants to share his resources with you is saying that YOU are important enough to him to make that type of “sacrifice”, if you will. And a man that doesn’t want to share his resources with you is making a very clear statement and drawling a line in the sand about where you stand with him. Which isn’t very promising in my opinion because it’s apparent that the money is more important to him.
Lastly, the last thing any woman wants is a man that makes no attempt to understand women, their needs, their trials and is more self involved in worrying about his own. I KNOW that is true for men as well when it comes to women, as it should be. But lets stop confusing a woman’s desire for a man that will want to provide for her with a woman that only cares about a man’s money. When men date, they are not completely seperate from their more shallow desires to pick women. Why as a man would you expect women to be?
It’s not about his money. I think it’s more about a woman wanting a man that will want to share parts of his life beyond himself because he truly wants to make an effort to make her a part of his life. Not put into little compartments that only give *him/her* the greatest benefits. Men are not more aulteristic when it comes to picking women. And I think it’s foolish to expect women not to have any concern over the ability of a man to provide for her. Women might have joined the work force but we are far from equal and we are still women who want a man to be there to protect us. To expect women to be completely aulteristic when you as a man can’t, isn’t exactly fair is it.
girl-with-glasses says
@vino #142
A woman is *not* a female version of you, you know. Your main objection seems to be against the legal constraints of marriage. Even if a woman would agree to sign a prenupt, or to demonstrate future earning potential, you seem to think her just wanting to be married to you indicates she has it out for you. If that’s your view, fine. Btw, if you’re a finance man, maybe a finance analogy would work better. If you’re doing a plain vanilla swap, you don’t look at what party A and party B’s rates are in themselves in the fixed and floating markets, but the relative advantages they have in each. You seem to think either, a woman should offer the exact same benefits to a man as he to her, and/or one woman isn’t that different from any other. My prior point on *love*, is that sometimes the man ends up thinking the woman is special and superior to him . A second economic argument would be just a simple case of prisoner’s dilemma, where individually, taking a optimizing position would get both parties worse off, but taking a sub-optimal strategy to both individually, would actually be the maximally optimal solution for both. To me marriage is the pledge of loyalty and faith that’s necessary, a pledge always requires some prior faith and commitment, and precludes other future interested parties, aka, the sacrifice , work, and prior emotional investment required. In these times, a woman saying she has initial standards maybe laughed at, but what does it matter, we do these things individually, and as long as my potential mate comes of his own free mind and accord, that’s more than fair in my book. To me, a relationship were people just go in for fun times as long as it lasts, isn’t much of anything. I’m a woman so I’m not as lax on time wasting in these matters as men tend to be. Well, I want kids, so that might be one reason why marriage is so much more important to me than you. Finally, do I look a man’s net worth? Even subconsciouly, sooner or later, yes. But that’s more of an individual characteristic. Just simple supply and demand. If I can get it, all the more power to me, if I can’t, I can’t. I don’t find it morally damning =p.
Caramel says
I CANT STAND A CHEAP AND STINGY MAN! I have definitely encountered several in my day! As far as the money goes, if she has been sleeping with this guy for the last 4.5 years, why shouldn’t he give her money? I don’t know whats wrong with women today, but sex is not for free! We all know that we don’t get something for nothing!!
Selena says
#145
Troll?
Johanus says
#145 – Caramel – I think you missed the point. The woman isn’t trying to sell herself to the man. She wants a relationship. If a man wants to pay for sex there are other options. Same goes for a woman. Yes, sex is for sale in this world, but in a relationship the giving in the respect of sex is mutual and beneficial to both parties.
.-= Johanus’s last blog ….How to Set & Keep Goals =-.
Caramel says
For Johanus (147): I am not missing the point. I know what you are saying, but at the same time, why shouldn’t she get something out of the relationship? It’s not about a woman SELLING herself to a man, but in a relationship, you just dont get something for nothing.
You men are always trying to justify something! I know if I were her, and he’s just sleeping with me for a long time and doesn’t want to give me money every o he is out of the door! Like I said in my post, sex is not for free! The more that women understand this, the better off they will be!
Caramel says
For Johanus (147): I am not missing the point. I know what you are saying, but at the same time, why shouldn’t she get something out of the relationship? It’s not about a woman SELLING herself to a man, but in a relationship, you just dont get something for nothing.
You men are always trying to justify something! I know if I were her, and he’s just sleeping with me for a long time and doesn’t want to give me money every once in a while, he is out of the door! Like I said in my previous post, sex is not for free! The more that women understand this, the better off they will be!
Nicole says
I have a story… I had a huge fight with a boyfriend who made anywhere from 10k to 40k for a website and I made 800euro a month. He couldn’t understand that we could ever compare the money he makes with how much I make. He would argue he had more expensive bills and such but I kept trying to explain that regardless the money he has leftover is still more and so on. I never expected him to pay for me.. However if he wanted to do something like vacation in Dubai he would say I don’t have enough money to go with him.. I would ask if he could consider doing something a bit more economical and his response was that he worked hard for his money and this is what he deserved… Always leaving me behind. This man was stingy. I only wanted some help so that we could enjoy things together. If I ever tried to offer to pay for something I could afford, like a cheap meal, he would get extremely mad saying he doesn’t need my petty change.. So…. I was very confused.. And lets forget I said Dubai.. I live in Greece and we have our gorgeous islands so if he planned to go to an island then I could only go if I could pay my half at a 5 star hotel and restaurants… He always said he was not my sponsor.
I do not, by any means, expect a man to sponsor me. And I’ll take care of myself and I know that we will split bills or I’ll even pay entirely sometimes. The guy I am seeing now is a student (going for his masters just to clarify) and I know he isn’t swimming in extra cash but I offered to stay in and cook more, or watch movies at home, go for walks etc. however he takes me out and pays for me.. If I have something to offer that is great. I sometimes look for deals to treat him to.. I just got him a massage that was on sale for 8euro from 80euro.
Money is not my issue but it should not be an issue. Sharing is caring (and it goes both ways) but if they are trying to help you out then that’s all you can really ask for. Who wants a man to pay for everything? That’s what daddy is for.
maria says
What more do you want? It’s his money so he can spend it. Do you want to live like a queen just because you know he’s a rich?
C’mon….
jexy22 says
Good grief. I do not for a moment believe this woman is a gold digger. She just wants to feel like this man truly values her; the way he values himself. It’s not so much about the money; it’s about what he chooses to do with it that matters. Love is a verb; we watch how others treat us by their actions, whether those actions involve money, time, thoughtfulness, generosity, etc……This guy is saying (with his actions) that she comes in second. He is a multi-millionaire and she makes $45K? That is a HUGE difference in income. Girl, find a different guy. We all know it’s not so much about what someone “gives” to you but rather what one is willing to “give up” for you. What happened to the virtue of sacrifice. I’ve never made more than $26K in my life but I’m very generous to those I love. They may not be expensive gifts but I give what I can. That’s what it’s all about. Another truth about money – whether you have 50 bucks in your bank account or 5 billion – on your deathbed – you can’t take it with you. Remember the old story: How much money did the billionaire leave behind when he died? Answer: all of it.
Find a less selfish man.
Androgynous says
Helen, it is interesting the way you brought evolutionary biology/sociobiology into this discussion. In the cases you cited, bird and fish do not “carry” their young. The young is deposited outside the body (in protective eggs or shells) that both parents are able to care for equally. In the case of birds, there is true (and equal) division of labour given the very precarious existence birds, especially hatchlings face (predation, mercy of the weather and seasons). Male and female are monogamous, take care of their young in equal measure and take turns to look for food. Birds are not social animals hence the monogamy and equal division of labour. Humans are so so we deviate from the “bird” model so to speak. Also, female humans in the past tended to be pregnant most of the time (usually not by choice) and so feel vulnerable to predation or attack. Try fighting off attackers and defending 3 of your young children while 8 months pregnant ! The only way she could ensure her safety and wellbeing, and that of her children was to depend on a strong healthy male. I think this explains the hard wiring in women’s brains to seek out a male “protector”. I think your brain would be wired that way if you had to live that way for thousands and thousands of years.
Androgynous says
As an aside, I have to say that while I am a thoroughly modern woman, earning good money, fiercely independent and well educated, parts of me still respond in a “reptilian” or primitive way to certain stressors. In that scene in Mel Gibson’s Apocalypto where the hero’s heavily pregnant wife was forced into fighting off a panther/jaguar (?) to protect herself, her young child and her unborn baby – still makes my skin crawl and break out in a cold sweat every time I think about it.
Serena27 says
I scanned the comments for a response from the OP, but I didn’t see one. I wonder how it worked out for them. I don’t think she was being selfish or a gold-digger. I think the couple were having communication problems about money. She said she got a weird look from him when she asked for $200 to go to the store. People have commented on the lack of information, what kind of store, what was she buying? I’d like to know if she told him he was giving her a look that made her feel uncomfortable and started a disscussion about what he was feeling? I wonder if they discussed her new, lower salary? There are lots of helpful suggestions on how to deal with finances in a relationship whether two people make similar ammounts or one greatly out-earns the other, or if one spouse will stay home to raise the children. I thought my ex-husband and I would not have problems with money b/c we would discuss them. But we weren’t very good at discussing anything, and we had very different values about money (and many other things) and we could not come to an agreement. When we separated we both made $50-60,000/each. Same income, just very different values.
I don’t think it’s fair to expect the lower-income earner to pay for everything 50-50. Will one person eat kraft dinner for supper while the other has foie gras? (an exaggeration but you get my point). Will they take separate vacations? Will they receive different medical treatments?
I don’t see how you can love someone and not happily take care of them if you have the means and they don’t. This does not mean that your low-income spouse can expect $10,000 shoes or watches and fancy meals in restaurants every day (or week). But I think they can expect to enjoy higher quality groceries and health care at no additional expense to what they can afford on their own salary.
I have a wonderful, new relationship now, but the topic of money still makes me nervous. We are planning a camping trip next month and have to budget for it together so we will be discussing money a lot for the first time. I’m applying Evan’s advice to take each relationship on it’s own and not put up walls based on the past. Not an easy thing to do, but absolutely necessary!
DJ says
“If he didn’t love you, he wouldn’t be marrying you.” That statement, if it is being applied in general to men, is wrong. Men marry for many reasons, and it’s not always love. I know, my husband of 26 years was stingy and VERY controlling with money from day one. He never lightened up. And in the end he told me he’d never loved me. We’re divorced now and guess who got nearly everything…Yes. He did. We started out on a very equal footing, financially, in our late 20s. Soon we had a business we started together and it is still operating decades later. In the divorce he won 100% of the business, our real estate, our home and all of it’s possessions inside, and all our bank accounts. He had grabbed everything we owned, when we separated, and got two attorneys. I went into my divorce pro se (without an attorney) and I lost nearly everything I’d ever worked for. I’m 55 and starting over, earning barely enough to keep an apartment roof over my head, and I drive an 18 year old vehicle. My ex lied in court and played dodgeball and hide-the-bank-accounts, from every angle. In my gut, I knew when I married him that he was stingy and self-centered and controlling about money. I married him anyway. He never changed, he only got worse as time went by. And I will always now pay dearly for not listening to my gut when I had a chance. Girl, you better run, run fast as you can. There’s a better man out there for you. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. I have lived the life you are headed for.
Clare says
I made this comment on another story, but I really do think that whether your *attitudes* towards money are compatible is much more important than how much you actually earn.
I grew up with a mom who was a single mom, and a teacher, so never had a lot of money, but always made sure to buy lovely gifts for other people, and made sure there was plenty of wonderful food. I have adopted this way of being, and although I am not a great earner and don’t ever expect to be, I am always generous with those I love.
I find I get along much better with people with a similar attitude, and if I sense a stinginess in someone, I tend to stay away.
My boyfriend earns far more than me, but we have a similar generosity with each other when it comes to money. He knows that I will give him whatever I can, will never say no to him regarding money and will never take advantage of him. He in turn is very generous with me and helps me wherever he can without my asking.
I think it’s this trust of each other and this openness which makes our relationship work particularly well in this respect. It happens to be particularly important to me that the man I’m with trusts me financially. It is one thing to be sensible and practical about money, it is another to be withholding.
katrina says
i have just read this piece for the first time. TBH after reading all the comments I find myself in a bit of dilemma. Yes he is paying for the house they live in (which is in his name and not hers I presume), both cars, and probably some food too. But he is also gambling high amounts of money and won’t even give her $200? She doesn’t seem to be asking alot and lets be frank a millionaire lifestyle is going to cost her more if she has to pay out of pocket then a middle class one. If he has as much money as she claims then $1000 doesn’t seem like an awful lot for spending money a month. Sweetheart if you are reading this I would just say to be patient. He is probably so used to hearing gold digging horror stories that he is a bit scared about everything. And he is new to the responsibility. Once a baby comes along then he will have to pay alot more things and also take care of you better as well. As others have said I would see what the prenup says and at the moment not worry about him being cheap. When the baby comes then ask for a joint account. Thats what I did! The bastard still left me with nothing but then I was in love when I signed my prenup and not thinking straight!
katrina says
The good news is that you could potentially put all your cash aside and invest in a property and rent it out and have all your income to play with to gain wealth of your own.
I bet if you ask his advice and he starts helping you a bit he may even find a project and become your partner. So no matter what happens to the relationship in the future you have something to fall back on and don’t end up miserable and broke. You shouldn’t be paying to keep up with his lifestyle either.
Sarah says
What if they had been together for over four years and he worked constantly out of state but stayed with her when he took off 3 months a year or visited? (still making over 100K) What if her job was unexpectedly eliminated and she owned a home with a lot of equity, which they were eventually planning to use when they can be permanently together? What if she couldn’t sell that house now because of needed repairs? Repairs he doesn’t have time to help with?
Johanna says
Boy this conversation rang alot of bells for me. As with all partnerships, the money discussion has to take place before a final commitment is made so everyone is on the same page right? However, let me share this with you. I (age 65) recently married a 77 year old man who owns his own home, has a good amount of money in the bank and a very good retirement income. He has been retired for over 40 years due an employment injury. I have worked very hard for the last 29 years since my divorce maintaining a good lifestyle that is not extravagant on any level. We had many money discussions because i knew this could be a hot potato as he constantly complains about money all the time. Its very draining. He refused to leave his home and create a joint home together and insisted that I move into his home he shared with his deceased wife. I spent over two years cleaning out his house, painting walls, etc. AND working to support myself while living in a rental home. His house is paid for and the taxes are low, so I could see the rationale in this thinking. However, I was told I could change the house so it felt like MY home too, not just his. I was also told that I could finally relax and not work as he would take care of everything and everything would be held jointly. WRONG! I feel I was duped because that is not the case. I am working harder than I ever have and probably will not be able to retire. He does not help with any of my bills at all even though he has five times the amount of income I have. The house is in his name although I was told it would be OUR home. I am not on any bank accounts, I have no ATM and no access to any of his money even though I was told I did not have to work. I asked him recently if he would give me $100 a month towards my car payment and was told no. I feel like i was played just so he could have a companion at an advanced age. Although he told me clearly he wanted to travel and have fun and do things he never did before, now he refuses to do anything and is a couch potato. His favorite saying is ‘I can’t afford it’ which is not true. He is a financial control freak and although he says he would like to see me slow down, does not offer to help. I feel embarrassed if I have to ask for a small amount of money. Bottom line, he lied to get me to marry him, I have spent in excess of $20,000 on decorating this house so I can feel I live here too and unless he dies first, I have no financial security at all. I feel stuck, lied to and resentful. He definitely has control issues around money and at age 77 I doubt this will ever change. I have always been a very active person with a young attitude but this situation is making me ill….literally! I feel like I am becoming an old lady which is so beyond the truth of who I really am. I won’t divorce him because everything I had is invested in this house and thank God every night I have my own little bedroom as he has the master bedroom which he refused to share for sleep reasons. I feel like an idiot writing this…..so what would YOU do!!!???
Clare says
Johanna,
Run.
I’m sorry, I know that sounds difficult and extreme, but I have some experience with men like this.
Run, and do everything you can to let this relationship go and salvage what you can financially. Someone this mean and controlling will have your self-esteem in the toilet in no time.
I’m sorry if this is not easy advice, but I call it as I see it.
*Strength and support to you*
Speed says
@Johanna (161)
I’m sorry to hear about your situation. It sounds as if you are implicitly waiting for your husband to pass away for financial security but please think twice about that. He might live to 110 or something, becoming increasingly reliant on you as he ages (yet still withholding his money). I’m not a lawyer but I imagine you have legal options open to you. I would suggest you speak with one, maybe at a free legal clinic, if one is available in your town. In any event, I don’t think you want to continue your life as it is so you need to be courageous and explore your options. Good luck to you.
Terry says
Dear OP,
If you are happy being 2nd because you enjoy the benefits of material things and don’t have to worry about paying bills for the rest of your life, which is a reasonable trade-off, then stay. Otherwise, RUN.
There’s a lot of assumptions here, but I assume that you are a hard working woman who takes care of him and spends money frugally.
There’s no respect here. He spends so much on his toys, yet when it comes to spending a little on you, he makes you feel uncomfortable. When you get married, you SHARE you lives together, meaning you share everything. How can one person live a different lifestyle in a marriage than the other? Why get married in the first place? Why not just date and be common-law forever? That way you don’t have to worry about being equal (sarcasm here).
Relationships are not build on spreadsheets and numbers. There are always tradeoffs to everything. You need to ask yourself what each of you bring to the table and see if you think that’s a good tradeoff and a good deal for you. You need to determine your needs and if they are not being meet, you need to decide if it’s worth the risk to look elsewhere. Be strong and have the strength to make the right decisions. It’s tough.
Let me tell you my experience and share my outlook. I was dating a rich guy and just by faith I’m currently with another rich one. I’m currently living with this one. I moved into his house and he pays for all the bills. When we go out, he pays for everything. He pays for all vacations. I only pay for my own personal expenses like my gas, my cell bill, my car maintenance and general household groceries. When we do major grocery shopping together, he pays. Essentially he pays for almost everything. I don’t make much as I used to, but I work full time just like he does. All inside household duties are mine and I make sure the household runs smoothly. He takes care of the outside, and I help 75% of the time. That’s because I’m better at the inside duties and he’s better at the outside and he likes my company while working.
Most people think I’m spoiled, but I disagree. I work more than he does. Why should I devalued myself because I bring in a lower income? If I were to split the money 50-50 or even proportionally, I would become poor with the lifestyle we have. How fair is that? I prefer a lesser luxurious lifestyle and be happy, then to be poor by living a lifestyle I cannot afford or need. It’s a bonus to have the up-scaled things, but it doesn’t make a successful relationship or does it make me any happier.
When we get married, we will have a pre-up where he keeps all this assets before the marriage. Whatever we accumulate together, we use together.
Imagine, I suddenly win the lottery and he looses his job. Now I’m going to start buying my expensive cars and leave him with nothing because he has savings he can dig into? I’m going to go on super nice vacations he now cannot afford? Of course not!
I’m just old fashioned. I care, love, give and do whatever I can for him as best as I can and I expect the same thing from him. Whether he pays more or not, just depends on the current circumstance. He just happens to be richer than me so he pays more. If I was richer, I would pay more. When we get married, we are both rich. You will never win if you are in competition with him and his assets. You need to work together as a team and be valued the same.
It seems to me that you are not valued the same and that there’s no sharing. “What’s yours is yours and what’s mine is mine. but I will help you with the bills because I pity you. However, I’m not going to pay for anything more. You don’t get anything luxurious like me because I devalue your work, essentially you, since it brings in much less than me.” Do you want this type of attitude in a marriage?
I hope this helps and good luck! Talk to him about your point to view and try to work things together before getting married. Be strong and have the strength to make the best decisions for yourself.
kay says
Don’t sign a prenupt or you may end up trapped in a bad marriage because you are dependent on him financially. If he insists on a prenupt….run, don’t walk away from him.
SugarNspice says
Dear Lara,
I would not listen to all those people that tell you you are expecting too much, they are just jealous. There is nothing wrong with expecting the person you are about to marry to spend money on you. Regardless of what time we are living in. If someone truly loves you and they can afford to help you out there is absolutely no excuse for them. If you feel that they are cheap and stingy after 4 years, it would only get worse after you 2 are married. Either tell him what bothers you now, and he doesn’t try to make you feel better about the situation, RUN FOR THE HILLS !
SugarNspice says
Dear Johanna, tell that 77 year old if he doesn’t add your name to his bank and account and house, you will leave. It just seems like he married you but he doesn’t trust you, Oh and no relationship can survive without trust. By the way it also sounds like he is just using you, ie married you for free cleaning and whatever else you do for him. Do you really want to look after him with no financial security in the future? Perhaps you would be happier, on your own.
Mitzy says
Yes, he is selfish. Why? Because first it is HIS money, second what else is HIS, let me guess, the right to 1. act superior 2. have the majority rule vote in all decisions (his money makes him the majority) 3. I bet if you shared your assests with another or only gave it in equal measure to the money he is willing to contribute he wouldn’t like it. 4. You most likely will end up with the liabilities (should you have children) and he with the assets. 5. Not only is he selfish clearly he wants a marriage of inequality from the start 6. His money is more important than the relationship. 7. He will always hold the money over you to have more power in the relationship 8. He is probably as selfish in the bedroom, as his money can cover his “flaws” and he feels too superior to be intimate. 9. He will expect 100 percent effort on your part everywhere while he (his money) has conscripted his absence in things important to you. 10. He will think he has bought a wife (more like a mail order bride) and you will be punished regularly and he will use “HIS” money to do this and excuse himself.
But you know this and that is why you are angry and resentful. A man that won’t share EQUALLY isn’t worth having, trust me I married one who was not very well heeled with a lot of liabilities. Upon retirement (as he money grew) the real person shown out. Self centered, selfish, cheap, mean and divisional. Move on please. You will never be “validated” as a good or contributing person, but ALWAYS in the woman down position.
Mitzy says
I agree with This is not love comments. Certainly not in the Biblical sense when two become one (moneywise too I suspect).
I think he is getting off cheap. He wants a self supporting maid and sex object. Sorry is that is harsh, but from the beginning he is telling/asking if you will accept a marriage of inequity. The gambling probably includes, travel and perhaps other women too. He has realized he can’t keep this up, unless someone is “hired” to take care of the home front.
Currently you are “on approval” to see if you will cooperate with this arranged marriage, with the bait of the “high life” for Him.
My advice if you do marry, (in spite of your anger and resentment) is KEEP YOUR MONEY out of his reach, TOTALLY FOR YOUR OWN PROTECTION.
He may gamble that away too. I would also do a background check or ask around. He may be “rich” from swindling other women clouded by love, and attracted to his assets and kindness. I think there is a lot going on here. He also sounds a bit narcissistic, and I know from experience they will spend a great deal of time looking for a “target”, so four years isn’t so long. Many of these men are just great and total Mr. Nice guy till you are hooked (by marriage) maybe he is just waiting for that to “turn the tables” on you? This is their MO.
I
Mitzy says
I wanted to add, upon my husbands retirement, when money was a bit short during the time he qualified to receive it, and when he actually retired, his favorite saying was “put in on the credit card” which the majority were in my name, because he was “old fashioned” and only used cash for himself, I did assumming that was something he realized and agreed to pay. NOT, he kept the cash for himself and the debits he assigned to me.
MONEY and him keeping the MONEY, while I got the kids, home and debt to deal with after four children and 35 years of being “hoodwinked” this way, finally caused “incompatibility”, As his money status grew (thanks to my support on the home front), so did his big head, NOW the money was his and the kids were MY responsibility, as were their costs.
Just if anyone is wondering, he can “never afford it” even for himself or the children or me AFTER he said “yes” to my request for some needed and some wanted or house hold stuff like USED furniture” or clothing.
MORAL, he liked to look good while being bad. If I was lonely or needed help with the home and kids, he showed me his growing “spread sheet” to justify his not being there, and frequently said, “for our retirement” which grew to half a million dollars, and he still didn’t have the time (for his family or home) or the money (for his family or home).
Also, he frequently calls, called me a GOLDDIGGER……we were married 35 years and he wasn’t a rich man then, however as his income grew so did equally his selfish and mean and divisional ways…..I was told I didn’t “need” to work also early on, and I was thrilled to be so “lucky” to have a man that supported stay at home moms.
Well, not so lucky as he used this against me later on, and used “HIS” money to make me a trapped, wounded, and helpless “prey”.
We are divoricing, and he STILL can’t wrap his head around my rights to any of the money I helped earn or was frugal in my own ways (like doing all the repairs, buying used stuff etc.) to support HIS earning it for US, when in reality he just USED my support to pad HIS accounts.
When it comes to love, men love their money more. Do NOT marry someone who you are ALREADY angry with and resentful of, it will get worse not better.
Nada says
Omg, i have such a bf and we only been dating online for 3 months but known each other for over a year.. It’s like reading my own story here.. if he can’t even spend three eyros to email me while he is away at his monte carlo home, how do i expect him to really spend thousands and fly over to my home ( i live in asia, he is italian) as he promised? I am disappointed cus this are small gestures if love that he fail to do… he speaks of planning a future together but think he just do stuff as he pleases…
Marie says
And another thing — why would she be judged more harshly if the $200 requested is actually for jewelry, clothes, hair, and makeup instead of to buy groceries. Do you have any idea how much money it can take to date someone who is wealthy? She is dating a millionaire. She represents him, along with his cars, houses, and other expensive items. They move in a certain social circle and she is expected to look and act a certain way. People aren’t aware that he is not funding her – they just assume if she isn’t keeping up that she has poor taste and it reflects badly on the both of them. Just waxing and makeup alone can cost upwards of $200-300 a month depending on where you live.
I find it continually surprising on blogs and society that women are judged especially by men on the way they look, yet men have no idea sometimes what it actually costs to maintain that look. If she were dating a guy making a middle class or lower class income, I would say fine, wearing cheaper clothing is actually what you should do. But she is not. If he enjoys seeing her look nice and welcomed by his friends and not labeled as a golddigger, he should help finance that.
I am a doctor engaged to a doctor. We discussed our joint account recently and decided how much to put into it. We each make the same amount of money. At first he made the usual protests of why do you need x amount of money for hair, makeup, jewelry, clothing, haha. I told him fine, this is what my waxing costs, which I didn’t do until I met you, this is what the hairstyle that you like costs, this is what high heels cost and when I don’t wear them you point it out. I am happy looking granola when we walk into a restaurant. I am who I am. But if you want me to look a certain way and enjoy it, that costs money and is a joint expense. She should have the same conversation. “Hey honey, my income has been reduced this year, as you know. I no longer have the funds to maintain my appearance a certain way. I am uncomfortable looking less than I usually look because I know I will be judged by your friends, but in the end I am who I am. However, if it makes you uncomfortable, then I request that you help me pay for it. If you are okay with me showing up to parties in last year’s clothes and being laughed at by your friends, then I probably should just leave you now.”
Marie says
@Mitzy – I feel for you. Unfortunately, this is the big risk that women who become homemakers, staying home to take care of the husband and kids to save tons on childcare and help him be successful in his job through your support of him when he is at home. This is what happens in this day and age. Back in the day, when women didn’t go to college as much, etc, it was expected that the woman stay home and support her husband and in turn the husband financially provided for the family. Now it is viewed unfortunately as a “luxury.” And when you stay home, you are not making any quantifiable income nor are you paying into social security or medicare. It is easy when the marriage falls apart for the man to say indignantly it’s my money and I made it all by myself. I didn’t see you going to work. Even though it was a joint decision for the wife to stay home. Furthermore, as the marriage progresses, whoever brings in the income begins to take in more power, decision-making, respect, etc. If you stay home, you become less marketable in the workplace because your skills become outdated and it makes it harder to get a job as well in the future if you need one. Very often, homemakers get divorced in middle age and they can be in big trouble. If you decide to stay home, you need to make it very clear in terms of finances what is going to happen and how you are going to be respected because if you do it after the fact, it never goes well.
Karl R says
Marie asked: (#172)
“Do you have any idea how much money it can take to date someone who is wealthy?”
It takes the amount of money that you feel obliged to spend. You apparently feel obliged to spend a lot more money if you’re dating someone much wealthier than you.
Marie said: (#172)
“She is dating a millionaire. She represents him, along with his cars, houses, and other expensive items.”
Perhaps you place yourself on the same level as your partner’s material goods. I don’t believe it’s healthy to date anyone who actually views you in that manner.
Marie said: (#172)
“People aren’t aware that he is not funding her – they just assume if she isn’t keeping up that she has poor taste and it reflects badly on the both of them.”
If people in my social circle start judging my wife (or me) by anything besides the content of our character, then it’s an obvious indicator that I need to start hanging out with higher quality people.
Marie said: (#172)
“Just waxing and makeup alone can cost upwards of $200-300 a month depending on where you live.”
Shaving is a lot cheaper than waxing. The only way someone can tell the difference is by touch. I don’t know about the social circles that Lara’s millionaire boyfriend hangs out in, but in the social circles I hang out in, people don’t grope my wife.
Marie said: (#172)
“If he enjoys seeing her look nice and welcomed by his friends and not labeled as a golddigger, he should help finance that.”
In other words, in order to avoid being labeled as a gold-digger, she needs to become a gold-digger?
And I’ll go back to my earlier point. My friends warmly welcomed all my girlfriends because they were my girlfriends. They didn’t call any of my girlfriends names, because they were my girlfriends. Apparently, I’m accustomed to hanging out with a much classier group of people than the rich folks you like to rub shoulders with.
Marie said: (#172)
“I am a doctor engaged to a doctor.”
What city do you live in? Because the doctors in Houston are a lot less tacky than the doctors you’re accustomed to hanging around with.
Marie said: (#172)
“I am uncomfortable looking less than I usually look because I know I will be judged by your friends, but in the end I am who I am.”
If one of your doctor friends/colleagues showed up to a social function with a girlfriend whose clothing, etc. was closer to what you’d expect from a schoolteacher than a doctor, would you judge her based on her appearance? Would you label her as a gold-digger? Would you make her feel unwelcome in your social circle?
I think the entire tone of your post says a lot more about you than it does about Lara’s boyfriend.
Marie says
Karl R. – Wow, that was the first time I posted something on a thread. Do you stalk these boards and take everything so personally or something? I never made any comments about you, your personal life, girlfriend, or social circle, why do you feel compelled to attack me and what you assume is my lifestyle? I like to play devil’s advocate. If everyone took the same point of view, how can we really get to the root of things?
I never said any of this applied to my social circle at all. It was just a humorous conversation I had with my fiancé about our joint account. He happens to love it when I dress up but bemoans the money it takes. So I gave him a choice, we can either spend less and I look less fashionable, or you can help me fund this as a priority for the both of us. He chose to want me to look nice, just because he enjoys it.
As for the rest of it, I just want people to consider things from this woman’s point of view, even if she asked for $200 for something that isn’t a necessity. The kind of social pressure that some women are under, it really is quite a lot and sometimes it’s difficult for their husbands or boyfriends to understand. If you understand, then good for you. But a lot of people do not understand. Why doesn’t she leave? Probably because she loves him. It’s not easy to throw away 4.5 years.
Since you’ve gotten so personal, yes, I am a doctor. I do not spend my days socializing. I work 12-16 hours a day seeing dying cancer patients and doing research and raising money to try and find a cure. And that goes for most of my colleagues as well. They are not “tacky” nor are they frivolous. They hardly spend any time on themselves because they are so busy trying to be in the hospital.
The people I’m referring to are some of the hospital’s clients. Some women are married to very wealthy husbands who are nickel and diming them. Even if they are dying of cancer, even if they just want to buy something to make themselves feel beautiful. It is still the “my money” vs “your money” phenomenon. And it’s really very very sad. And these couples probably started out just like this couple in the letter. This problem only seems to get worse, not better. Instead of worrying about their health, they worry about whether a mastectomy or losing their hair will make their husbands leave them for a better looking woman. Because a lot of their friends have already been “traded in” for the newer model. And these women, they have to fight time, they have to look good. And they were professional women at one point, not golddiggers. They just got talked into the staying at home with the kids bit. And they did not assess their husband’s generosity of spirit accurately when agreeing to marry him and lose their income. It shouldn’t be this way, but the reality on the ground is, sometimes it is (except in Houston, of course, where you live).
My point is, if you are a genuine person who is not a golddigger (and I’m assuming he wouldn’t be marrying her otherwise), and you are with a man who is making you feel bad about yourself for something so simple as asking for $200, you really need to re-examine if you’re a priority in his life or is it more worth it for him to protect his money and how he feels about it without taking your views into consideration? Someone who is that calculating about money — is he going to be there for better or for worse?
Karl R says
Marie said: (#175)
“I like to play devil’s advocate.”
Wikipedia, regarding “devil’s advocate”:
“The purpose of such process is typically to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure, and to use such information to either improve or abandon the original, opposing position.”
So you were putting up that position in order to test the weaknesses in what other people were saying, but expect me to ignore the weaknesses in the arguments you put forward?
Marie asked: (#175)
“why do you feel compelled to attack me and what you assume is my lifestyle?”
The first sentence of your first post.
Marie said: (#172)
“why would she be judged more harshly if the $200 requested is actually for jewelry, clothes, hair, and makeup instead of to buy groceries.”
Around the time I was 21 I had to scrape by for a few months where I couldn’t always afford groceries. At one point I made $10 of groceries last 2 weeks.
Tomorrow, why don’t you go out and spend $10 on groceries. And for the next two weeks, eat nothing but what you bought with those $10. After you’ve done that, come back and tell me why I judged your comments so harshly.
Marie said: (#175)
“my colleagues […] are not ‘tacky’ nor are they frivolous. They hardly spend any time on themselves because they are so busy trying to be in the hospital.”
The doctors we know are too busy with 12-16 hour days to judge a woman for failing to look like a millionaire. The same goes for the lawyers I know. The same goes for the investment bankers I know. Who is supposed to be in the boyfriend’s social circle judging her appearance?
Marie said: (#175)
“The people I’m referring to are some of the hospital’s clients. Some women are married to very wealthy husbands who are nickel and diming them.”
Okay…. The women who have wealthy husbands, the husbands that nickel and dime them, are the same women who are going to judge Lara when her boyfriend doesn’t buy her nice clothes, makeup, waxing and hairstyling?
Something’s not adding up with your stories. Your devil needs a better advocate.
Marie said: (#175)
“you are with a man who is making you feel bad about yourself for something so simple as asking for $200, you really need to re-examine if you’re a priority in his life or is it more worth it for him to protect his money”
Is Lara the kind of person he needs to protect his money from?
1. She used to earn $100k per year.
2. She currently earns $45k per year (possibly as unemployment).
3. She lives in his house (rent free).
4. She needs him to give her $200 so she can shop.
I think I can make Lara feel more awkward about the $200.
My wife paid off her mortgage, remodeled her house, paid the utilities, bought and maintained her car, paid for her insurance, bought her groceries, filled a closet full of nice clothes, filled a drawer with makeup, had no credit card debt … all on $45k per year. We dated for 3+ years before we got married, and she never needed to ask me for money so she could go shopping.
Why was my wife able to do so much more with $45k per year than Lara?
Have you ever dated someone who mismanaged their money (and yours)? That quickly changes a relationship from better to worse.
Marie says
Karl R. “Around the time I was 21 I had to scrape by for a few months where I couldn’t always afford groceries. At one point I made $10 of groceries last 2 weeks.
Tomorrow, why don’t you go out and spend $10 on groceries. And for the next two weeks, eat nothing but what you bought with those $10. After you’ve done that, come back and tell me why I judged your comments so harshly.”
Hi Karl, I’m glad you told me about your difficult circumstances. I guess you see only the monetary value of what Lara is saying, while I see and sympathize with her emotional pain. You only had to scrape by for a few months. I had to scrape by with $10 worth of groceries for 5 years while my mom was sick and couldn’t work when I was a teenager. I cannot even look at an egg sandwich and crackers now without feeling nauseated. That is why I feel sympathetic to this woman who clearly was hurt by her fiancé’s cheapness. It was not about the money. He made her feel worthless. I don’t know what her personal circumstances are and what she spends her income on. But you seem to see her as a spoiled brat because of your experiences, while because of my experiences I see her as someone who feels shamed by her fiancé about money. Regardless of what she needed the money for, that shouldn’t happen in a loving relationship. I don’t think we will ever see eye to eye on this.
Faith says
@ Robyn comment #2
You have described my situation exactly. You see, he has no problem spending money on his things…only what is good for him. He is generous when he takes me out. He doesn’t expect me to pay at all ; he is generous with things to do with ‘us’ . However, I have always felt when it came to ‘me’ he isn’t so giving. He isn’t that cheap but, I don’t know how to explain it… I don’t feel special at all. You see for my birthday I didn’t feel like what he did was a special thing you would do for a woman you want to marry! As soon as I read your comment on the PreNup – you got it right on. He obviously brought this up and his main concern was all about protecting himself.
Faith says
In addition to my comment #178; I live alone not with him…. I make way less money than he does. I have never asked him for a dime. On a few occasions we would go shopping together. Often he would see a dress he loved and said I should buy it. He would practically force me to get it. My finances are a little tight. I always wondered, if he liked it so much, why wouldn’t he just buy it for me? It wasn’t that expensive and he surely could afford it. I just found that a little strange. It always stuck out as a red flag to me but I tried not to make a big deal about it. Like don’t force me to buy something you would like to see on me. And this is a man claimed he wanted to marry me and was very serious with me. Anyway, he had no problem spending money on expensive dinners for “US”. When it came to ‘me’ it felt different. I would have appreciated anything, small gestures that was just for me. I don’t want to sound selfish – but anything- even if it was a simple thing like here is lunch money (if I stayed at his house the night before and we didn’t pack a lunch); or take some change off the dresser and use it to buy your coffee on the way to work! He didn’t seem so giving when it came to spending money on just ‘me’ or when it came to doing things just for ‘me’.
Henriette says
Wow. I’m reading this years after it was originally posted but it certainly strikes a nerve. While I have strong feelings on the subject of marital finances, I don’t need to air my personal views here; what I think is fair & equitable makes no real difference. What matters is that Lara and her fiance have wildly differing views on how money should be handled within a couple and they don’t seem to be skilled communicators on the subject. I hope that they delayed the wedding until they could 1. come to an agreement on how finances would be handled in the future and 2. live a while with this agreed-upon financial system in place and see if it really feels right to both of them (chances are, someone will start to feel resentful).
I do wish that Lara comes back and fills us in on what transpired. I think it would be fascinating and educational.
Monika says
The thing is that men and women are not equal. Men cant have children. only women can. That also means in most cases that its a 5 years with almost no income for the girl. That’s not equal. If he is not helping now how is he going to help then. Unless they will not have any children the money segregation will be an issue.
Nch says
Ok. All the girls calling you a gold-digger have obviously never been treated like the most important thing in the world, by a man. The guys, they just know they’ll never be successful enough to have the woman of their dreams, as these would signify high maintenance women. Or, they have never been in love. When someone is in love, they break your walls, they make you feel vulnerable, and they teach you a whole new world outside your prototype of “the one you were looking for”
I’m so sorry you are going through this, I really hope you get to talk to him about this issue because it seems to me that, he knows you will not complain about his decisions and behaviors, and he might be marrying you because it’s convenient for him to have a submissive woman.
It’s so sad he won’t wanna make your life better and help you reach your full potential, if he clearly could with his contacts and all. Rich or poor, when a man loves a woman, he wants to feel like the man, provide, protect, and feel needed and admired. I don’t think this guy is doing any of that though. I only hope that once you get married he stops being so selfish but if you didn’t marry him yet, confront him about this, if he gets mad then you know he doesn’t love you, he should be trying to understand you and not making you feel bad. Never be ashamed of your thoughts or feelings, confront them, stand up for yourself.
I wish you the best of luck and please, don’t buy into that equality garbage, when it comes down to love, a man wants to feel like a man and a woman like a woman.
Alex says
Women still make less than men – despite all the equality talk. There is plenty of statistical evidence to back that up, so won’t waste space here. As long as she is not being overly extravagant and spending tactlessly – he should be contributing more to her needs. They are suppose to be a partnership.
Not to mention the cost of maintaining a woman’s good looks. These costs can be outrageous (in men’s eyes) for even a moderate level of upkeep. Men take for granted a woman who takes care of herself, looks polished, and classy. The cost of clothing, cosmetics, skincare regimens, exercise regimens, haircare add up – even on the low-end level!
If this guy doesn’t want to give her HIS money for shopping since her income has dropped, then he better not have any problem when she stops looking top notch. This isn’t about being a gold-digger. This is about reality. She used to make more money to upkeep her look. Now she doesn’t. He can afford to cover the look she can no longer afford to maintain on her own.
Cathalei says
You talk as if men have no cost of upkeep. Shaving, dressing, hair care, skin care etc. cost certain amount of money. But for both sexes, you can maintain that upkeep at thrift. If he pays for cars, house mortgage and other joint expenses, I cannot see why he is obligated to pay for her care products, especially when he has his own to contend with. If she had no income, that would be a moot point. But she can do it with her own money. Not to mention it would bring up surprises for him.
Jen says
“The shoe on my feet, I’ve bought it
The clothes I’m wearing, I’ve bought it
The rock I’m rockin’, I’ve bought it
‘Cause I depend on me”
Preach it, Beyoncé
Jamal says
Thats y the realtionship structure is messed up now…Independent Woman Campaign…and not Equality…im talking the man vs woman dynamic that is destroying couples and families. IDentity Crisis of the sexes..men cant be men because women act like they dont need us and even worse..neva show us how important we are to them..just my 2 cent.
Johannes says
Wow Simone, that’s a really great and relevant response. I like my girlfriend a lot and I currently make about 2x as much as she does (she makes a pretty decent living, definitely enough to support her lifestyle and sock away plenty for retirement/savings) and it does make me resentful that while she socks away money for herself and expects a lot of equality in nearly every aspect of our relationship, she expects me to pay for the majority of “going out” expenses. I looked at my bills and I pay for 75%+ of our meals out, I drive 90%+ of the time (and pay for the gas, etc). I don’t deny that some people may think I’m being cheap or petty to keep track, but I appreciate Simone’s comment that hey, in the age of equality, it’d be nice for everyone to expect a little less, be grateful a little more often, and maybe share a little more of the expenses. A lot of my guy friends – married and not – grumble about finances and how their partners view shared expenses. Anyway, thanks for highlighting the guy’s viewpoint in this article. Just because someone makes more doesn’t mean he/she should be expected to pay more (unless the other person in the relationship didn’t make enough to support themselves/got laid off/is a stay at home parent…).
Tony says
So let me get this straight. He pays for the house, the bills and stuff like that. He spends his money on things he likes. She barely has any expenses, so she has 45k to spend on womanly things? That’s just fine, no? Why the hell does he have to cough up 200 bucks because she wants a pair of new shoes?
You’ll probably have a financially stable life, so I don’t get what the fuss is all about. Be lucky you found a guy that doesn’t have to worry about money.
Emma says
Interesting. I think if she is feeling like this then she needs to have the ‘money talk’ ASAP…especially before getting married. I’ve dated my fiance for five years and we have always split costs exactly down the middle. My father raised me to always pay my way and only after a long courtship followed by marriage should you even consider combining finances. My fiance is very generous and always offers to pay, but I believe that it is a partnership and things should be tackled together. We are finally at the point of starting the talk about combining our finances because of all our wedding expenses. If you can’t have a frank, open discussion with your husband about something so simple then you’re in big trouble down the road. Financial issues are the number one reason for divorce. My mental hiccup before addressing finances with him was the fact that I didn’t want him to think that I wasn’t going to contribute as much. I didn’t want him to think that I would stop pulling my weight. A marriage is a deal between two people with similar goals who wish to pursue them together. Some couples may find that separate accounts work well for them, or having one joint account is best..whatever. It’s just important to address these issues right away so that you know that both of you are on the same page. From a woman’s point of view, it is also very nice to be courted in the beginning. It doesn’t have to be anything expensive (a nice picnic in the park perhaps?) as long as the woman is feeling special and is receiving attention. That’s what dating is all about. Women love attention more than ca$h.
Air says
What is his and her age? If he is older than her, which is probably the case, why the hell must she pay to put out for an old/older man? Men and women are equal, and if he is older, he is not equal to her. Also, she said that he spent on a house and a car, and people said that he “subsidized” her living. He spent money on his own house and his own car, so he subsidized nothing. She was just here for a ride. If tomorrow he decides to get rid of her, she’d be a fool, who paid for an old man expenses/subsidized an old man expenses, while he gambled, and then he threw her out when he found a better model (younger, with more money). She should start looking after herself and ask herself what would happen to her if he decides to throw her away from his posh house.
Sue says
You are good breading stock and thats it.
Just like your good looks his money has an expiry date.
Either one falters and you will be divorced.
Pay your own way, it sucks… but it will confirm how much you really love each other.
Larisa says
In the real life, there is not always going to be up and down times. When two persons are in a less responsibility relationship, it is likely to be less things to stress about; however, moving forward to a more serious commitment with each other, things might started to heat up, especially when it comes to combining finance together. Although most of couples can be happy together during a good time, it is usually more challenging in the down time.
Base from reading the comment from Lara, when she asked $200 help from her Fiance, his hesitated and might showed his unwillingness to provide the support she needed at that time, this leads her feeling unsupported from her Fiance during her down time and that worries her what could happen later on when things become more critical and hectic. (For a person makes about $45,000+, $200 is a small fraction of her salary, so it seems to me it is more of temporary borrowing for lack of cash on hand or emergency situation, although this is just my guess since it is not stating in her statement)
Lara also mentioned that she is very generous with a big heart, it seems to me she might be referring to money spending. She doesn’t mind to spend the money on her love ones and tend to just give it without asking back (more a giver situation) while on the other hand, her Fiance might have a different perspective on how a relationship should run (more of a taker situation). Then again, I cannot be sure if this is what she meant, but it sort of leads where her frustration came from: the fiance perspective difference between her and her Fiance.
When Lara might feel love should not measure with money and two persons should be always there for one another no matter what it takes , her Fiance might feel other wise. To me, it seems Lara is more emotional than her Fiance, who is rather more rational with his money. The problem arise because the different perspectives in between two persons and that’s always difficult to discuss and reconcile because there might involved changing another person’s belief.
So let’s sit back a little and look this all over again. Usually a person who is making larger scale of income tend to compensate their times. They usually work a lot and exposing to higher risks and responsibilities, Since time might be luxury to them, on rare occasion when they do have time, they will spoiled themselves with things they probably don’t need and spend money on things they feel it will relax them (In which, some people might found it odd why a person can own so many cars, or spend money on unnecessary gambling. Just imagine if you came home feeling unhappy, for some, a nice bubble bath will does the trick, but to some, it is not.) With that being say, your Fiance spending his money might seems odd to you, but it is what he needs during that time to keep him going and absolutely has no relation with his hesitation with you asking money from him.
So it comes down to what different perspectives of two persons. Since you love your Fiance and am engaged to him, it is the best for you to talk to him about your concern in person. It can be open and light-hearted, for example, you can start your conversation on few articles that related to your situation or leads to the questions you want to discuss, then ask your Fiance what he will be likely to do when it happens. For example, you can gather an article on why finance is challenging for married couple, then ask your Fiance about what he thinks the challenge is. Then once he starts to open up, it is a good time to contribute what you have on your mind.
Best luck to you!
Confused says
I’ve read some of the responses and am taken aback.
I feel this is why Americans can’t hold a marriage. Marriage is not a business negotiation. It’s a PARTNERSHIP. You join this person with vows. You want to help each other rise and want to genuinely enjoy your lives together. Key word here is together. When you marry someone you join entirely. Your money, debts, family, friends, and entire lives are now joined. To even consider fully separate financial lives is alien to me.
I am a woman. If I was extremely wealthy and I’m about to marry someone, or am married, I would not have the mentality that this is mine and this is yours. (Except for personal belongings of course. For those who like to nitpick I’m referring to clothing and such) I would merge our finances into one. The responsibility lies on me to find someone who is financially responsible and trustworthy. I’m not marrying anyone I can’t trust and have a fulfilling partnership with.
j says
most of my parents fights were over money. keep your money separate and pay for your own things
j says
He’s not selfish.
you shouldn’t be asking him for 200 to go shopping. grow up and shop at salvation army like the rest of us if you cant afford to shop with your own money.
he’s testing you to make sure you don’t just like him for his money
Sarah says
Reading this I thought she was going to the store by them groceries, which he probably eats most of anyway. I wasn’t under the impression that she was looking to go on a shopping spree.
S says
I do think this is a love rather than a spending style issue. Why? Because he spends on himself freely, even to the point of gambling, but if you “need $200 to go to the store, he makes (you) feel awkward.” Okay, sure, women and men have different priorities. Maybe he thinks that gambling is a sensible use of money, but if you want to spend $150 for a cut, color and style at the salon you are unreasonable (today’s prices are unreasonable, but that’s the reality). However, it is not the expenditure, but the attitude that is the issue. This “Big I, Little You” is an attitude that can permeate all kinds of issues that may not even involve money for the rest of your lives together. My advice is to go to pre-marriage counseling over this issue and get it resolved before you get married. It may be that you decide to accept this flaw in his character and, if so, that’s fine – it’s your choice. You should, however, make sure that you have dealt with the issue thoroughly and accepted that which you cannot change before you embark upon your new life together. Good Luck!
GetaLife says
Wow!
I raise two small children alone on $45k. A single person making $45k is practically a millionaire unless she/he has a spending problem. Reevaluate your personal budget.
Also, the World doesn’t care what you use to make or about your excuses why you make less. If you made that much before and can’t make that again you’re doing something wrong.
I kind of hope he trades you up for a younger, faster model that makes $16k a year.
AllHeart81 says
Get A Life, that’s great that you can raise two kids on $45k. But advocating for the hurt and pain of other people and hoping someone is “traded” in might be reason for you to do some reevaluating yourself.
smariel says
Hm, not enough details. What did you need $200 for? I dunno, if I had a boyfriend who was paying for house, car, vacation – and I could spend my entire salary on myself – I’d be psyched! Bc right now I’m doing it all on my own 😉 I guess when you’re married it becomes a little different; then I’m not sure if you should have more access to his $ for lifestyle stuff. Nevertheless, I have to say, it always seems to be folks w/o any $ who claim to be generous – but what are you giving? Are you giving more emotionally, timewise, etc. than he is? I don’t quite understand that statement. From a financial perspective it appears that he is much more “generous” than you are given his cash outlay vs yours??
Amber says
So to simplify, One side is saying – They wouldn’t have a problem with helping someone they love when needed, but providing for a healthy, able adult nowadays Should Not be the consideration when entering marriage. The other side is saying – Well it is so……stop complaining, lol.
Helaine Kaskel says
A different take: I am a wealthy, self-made woman, a mother of 3 who has worked all her life, and after 20 years got divorced. My ex-husband froze our assets and for awhile I was under severe stress because I could not access my money.
My ex- boyfriend – yes, ex – was a wealthy self-made man who sat by and watched me undergo tremendous suffering – mental, physical, emotional – when he could have helped. I left him because in his shoes, I would have helped. And have helped friends, family, and employees in the past because these people were important to me and I could not watch them suffer.
I never asked this man to support me. I dined at Jack in the Box with him and shared a drink and loved every minute.
MEN: women need to feel protected by their men.
WOMEN: men need to feel protected by their women.
PEOPLE: when you love someone you share it all – time, thought, energy, love, compassion, warmth, touch, and yes, that sensitive tricky area, the bank account.
This does not mean a shopping spree at Neiman Marcus. This means that when someone needs help and you can give it, you do so. This does not mean signing up to pay for someone’s mistakes over and over again. This means stepping up for someone you love.
Guys, not all women are golddiggers. And nothing will send her running away faster than your failure to provide and protect. Gals … do the same if he needs it. That is love. It’s really simple.
not a gold digger says
This is not about money but about what is giving each person a sense of security and needs. For the past year I have dating a very wealthy man. I had a terrible time 5 years ago with the crisis, losing my job, money and means to a healthier life. For the past 4 years, I have been rebuilding on my own, working constantly in my own business and not enjoying the simple things in life. There are times I live on peanut butter and jelly sandwiches so I can pay my taxes. I am no stranger to struggle and raised 2 wonderful children on my own for 18 years, working two jobs, providing and sacrificing for them.
I recently had some personal and financial struggles that I can’t explain. I am not a big spender and prudent with my expenses. The man I am dating can stand by and watch me drown, but comes to my house expecting me to nurture him, which I have. I have cooked him dinner several times per week at my expense and listened to his work and family troubles, helped him during his time of crisis when his house became flooded and was there for him when he needed it. I have made him feel loved and sacrificed my own time to meet his needs. We are both over 50 so not struggling with life experience for sure and are mature adults. He does take me to dinner, but likes to go when there is discounted meals.
But…he can walk past my broken car when he leaves my house, get into his Porsche and say, “let me know when you get that fixed so you can drive to my house next time”. He will send me to the grocery store with just enough money to “buy food for his fridge”. I don’t even live in my own house but a wealthy friends conservative house, that I take care of and live in just one room for discounted rent. When I work so hard to pay my expenses and I see the light leaving my soul, I want someone to care. When I share my troubles with him, I get “wow, that sucks”. He has even denied picking me up from the airport when I had a business trip because “he wasn’t sure what his plans will be on Monday night at 11pm”
But…he loves me sooooo much. He misses me sooooo much. He wants me to be committed to him because I should feel his love because he verbally expresses it. He constantly compliments me, perhaps to make up for what he does not want to provide…a nurturing environment. He calls me three times a day to talk about his day, and at the end of the convo, he will ask how my day is and then after my first sentence, he is too busy and has to go.
I’m sorry fellas, but women want to feel secure and alive. Not all are after your money, but the strength you can provide. In return, we can provide what you need in life whether it’s physical, emotional or just running errands. I have let him know that I am looking for more of a life relationship and he stepped up the compliments, quality time and dinners, but that’s it.
And so the ladies advice in my life will say, it’s your fault, you stay. But just for a short time, it’s nice to have dinner with a man, share some moments with and be an adult. You read about not pressuring a man, not showing him your struggles for fear of scaring him away, not wanting a relationship too soon, so I wait, following that advice because I do enjoy my time with him. But is he my knight in shining armor, my rock, my hero? I doubt it. The love is leaving my heart because he can watch me suffer and is not concerned about my comfort. The honeymoon phase is over, and when it comes to real life struggles as a couple, I can’t count on him.
Isabella says
I do have another question… what about when they have kids?
Is he going to have to carry the baby of both in his body and being working at the same time to be able to subsist?
Men are providers, we need then in order to provide our children a better life… other wise we dont need any man… Men need woman to have children, they are not able to have them with out us. Generosity is just a way to understand that our men will be there when we procreate our common children and wont leave his family fell down.
I am European, woman pay their stuff and dont wait for any man to save us from the misery, but this couple are about to start a lifetime together, and hopefully a family, this man is not acting as a provider and a reliable head of family.
Crystal says
Lara is coming across as very selfish. I sit here reading this and I guess I shouldn’t really be shocked by some of the things she wrote, but I will never understand why some people (Lara) will never truly understand just how lucky they are when it comes to money. She is having a feel sorry for me attitude. What I am saying might sound harsh but Lara really does need a reality check. I would be so thankful to even be making 45k or my fiancee to make 45k.
Lara money does not buy you all the happiness in the world as you seem to be living in a world of false reality. The reality for you, might be that you can’t have everything you want. If you were in my situation you would probably not even be able to comprehend how to deal with life.
I will try to make this short and to the point. I got engaged back on Christmas Eve 2013. This was one of the best days ever. My fiancee and I were going to start planning are wedding in 2014 and get married before the end of 2014. We had made plans to go look at an area that we wanted to check out for where we wanted are wedding to be held.
Well due to the good old wheel of fortunate that life can throw us, I had a very bad accident February 24, 2014. Remind you this was only a few weeks before my fiancee and I were going to check a place out in March that we wanted to get married at. I ended up having a closed head brain injury and this changed many things. My fiancee and I have always known that we would have to pay for any and everything for our wedding as we don’t have anyone that can help us out. Many people say the father of the bride should pay, but my father passed away when I was 16 of AIDS. Clearly that leaves my fiancee and I.
Before my accident I had been working 2 jobs which helped to bring in more money. After my accident it changed many things. I no longer had the extra income and could not work 2 jobs and I could not stay physically fit like I was used to as I was out of the gym between 8-9 months.
A few months after my accident my fiancee ended up getting shingles. He was out of work for almost 6 months. We tried to get a script for medicine to help with the shingles. My fiancee had seen a doctor not even 12hrs before we found out he had shingles. We went back the next morning and the doctor said he wanted another $100 just to see him again before he would write a prescription to help with the shingles. We did not have $100 and we did not have anyone we could go to for money. So because of how rude and heartless the doctor was my fiancee had to suffer for 6 months.
I at one point only had $7.00 in my checking account. Lara how would you have got through something like the above things I mentioned? You really need to be more grateful for what you have and not focus on what don’t you have. Money can’t buy you common sense or a personality.
My fiancee and I still have not been able to get married as we are both still paying on my medical bills from my accident. We never wanted an expensive wedding. We wanted to have a nice small wedding 30 people, have pictures, a video and have a honeymoon. We didn’t want to spend more than $7,000. Since we have to pay for everything ourselves we still cant come up with the money to get married.
You see if you choose to marry this man you speak of, then you choose to accept his “selfish” ways as you put it. It seems to me you are being a little selfish too. Sometimes when you just expect things you set yourself up for disappointment. Take a step back and try to be thankful for what you have and know things can always be worse.
The way you describe parts of your relationship sounds more like convenience based of material things, and not based off of love. Maybe the way you define love is based off of money, or at least that is how it comes across with what you wrote.
My last bit of advice for you Lara is talk to your fiancee about how you feel before you get married. If you can sit down and have an intelligent conversation with your fiancee about how you feel and your concerns. If you do not feel you can do this, then you might what to think again about getting married. I would not sign a pre-nup. You have choices as you are a grown lady. Lara you think he values you less now, you sign a pre-nup and you might be for some shockers.
Best of luck to you.
shawna says
I feel for Lara here. I don’t know how old this article is or if they are married but from my experience, this man sounds like a selfish jerk. If he is willing to take care of here when she is sick and feed her when she needs money for groceries. It is very myopic to conclude that she is a “gold digger.” She fell is actually wanting to leave him, despite his wealth, because of an obvious character flaw. I was with and married and had kids with a man just like this and he was not willing to do basic things like clean the toilet because he felt his higher income status meant he never should do housework. He wanted to spend money gambling and buying cars because that made him look good to other people. He cared more about looking good to other people than looking good for his wife. Gamblers and men obsessed with toys make horrible husbands because how they are seen outside will always be more important than how you see him. This is a huge warning sign. Men do have more opportunities than men and if she has kids, he should take care of her, especially prioritize food, unlimited food. Making sure she has unlimited money for food should be number one on his list. He’s a jerk..run away. He will cheat on you, party when you are with the babies and deny you money for food so he can demonstrate his superiority and your desperation. You are making 45K and down on your luck, any man..any friend would never balk at a request for grocery money……run girl run…..run to the nicest sweetest kindest man who would never make you feel ashamed for wanting food money……………..as for those who say she is not independent enough or doesn’t represent some B.S. ideal of an empowered woman….ideals should never be used as standards…he is rich because he screwed people over…not because he is hard working necessarily..not because he is cheap…because others lost and he used a capitalist system to rob, cheat and steal off the backs of the working class…..run girl
NotAStooge says
Its really funny that its always HIS money that’s on the table to debate about and for grabs. His money is our money and her money is hers. He is just a smart guy. I can’t stand that being generous part. Being generous only means transfer payments from the guy to the woman. Women are hardly generous like that, never saw that honestly.
Geraldina says
Is a red a flag!! Leave him..
Believe me be with a stingy man is not right o amazing future ,when a man is madly in love, he provide everything for you because it care for you… Plus you don’t need a wealthy man… There out there plenty gentleman they work hard with a huge heart.. Money or no money a man is a provider..
Grace says
this reminds me of my dad! he made $2 million/year for like 7 years and then millions on top of that in pervious and preceding years and thinks anything over $10 is expensive! the worst part, my mom is the same way! they act like we’re a family who makes $20,000/year but it’s the exact opposite! and the other thing that REALLY bothers me is that a majority of people in my town make like $200,000 at most and act like they’re the ones who make/made $2 million. ugh what can i even do!?
AllHeart81 says
It’s not your money. I’m not sure what you would look to do.
PS. $200,000 is an excellent income that most people don’t make. It’s nothing to sneeze at even if it’s not $2 million.
Louis says
A woman earns 45k yet is not happy because her fiance is not paying for her stuff?
LOL big nono. The most attractive thing to have is a woman who is capable of EARNING her own way.
So far as 45k, he is being cheap because he is a millionaire, but if you acted the same way with costs and payments, would you be cheap too? Or is it because its all you can afford?
i am sorry but this is disgusting to hear. People are dying out for 15k jobs in UK yet to here this 45k, that is a real benefit to somebody in here.
Never expect things to happen if you won’t discuss it. You don’t understand what your fiancee is thinking about money towards you guys , yet if you keep wondering why he doesn’t spoil you is maybe because you do not spoil him in ways where he WANTS to spoil you in the way YOU want him.
Louis says
Sorry it just really bothers me about some of the responses given here. If a woman makes 45k, does not pay any of the bills, yet demands that the man should pay for groceries or simply ask him for 200$ for food or so and so. I do not see how 45k is not enough for yourself already especially if you do not pay the bills.
Yes a man is a provider blahblah and he is simply doing so by paying the bills, covering costs to live in the house, etc. A man does not provide material things at your request because thats not providing. Thats keeping a child from crying.
That being said, if it was for things like groceries, i dont see how a woman expects a man to provide EVERYTHING. So what does the woman provide? house-care? cooking and looking after the children? Does that mean she cannot spend a single penny out of her 45k?
To be honest, with the mindset of knowing that , I would be more keen on spoiling my fiancee/wife if i was a the millionaire, but only if she never expected one bit and ticked all thoses boxes. You simply don’ tick all those boxes unfortunately. 🙁
Maria says
I think some of you are completely off base. What in the world makes this woman a “gold digger”? For one thing, I hate that term. While it’s fine for men to marry for youth and beauty, a woman who marries for money and stability has these horrible stigmas attached to her of a “whore” or a “gold digger.” You know, there are still both men and women out there who prefer a more “traditional marriage,” where the woman stays home and cooks, cleans, raises children, while the man works. I don’t understand how this is a bad thing?
On another note, this woman doesn’t even fall into the category of a “gold digger.” If so, she would have been out of this relationship years ago, are you kidding me? A multi-millionaire boyfriend who cringes at giving her $100 on her 45k a year salary? Oh yeah, a lot of gold diggers put up with that for 4.5 years. *eyeroll* Not to mention, this woman made 100k previously. That’s quite a decent salary.
Her wanting more from her boyfriend isn’t insane or mentally unstable, it sounds natural. Many women crave to be taken care of by a man, and I don’t see how that’s a bad thing. What is bad is that they are obviously not compatible. She wants to be taken care of more and resents him for not sharing more of his wealth, while he wants an independent woman. I think both sides are valid, but I don’t think one is “better” than the other. They just don’t match.
I personally have told my boyfriend that if I ever start to make 100k+ a year after law school then he is free to quit his 35k job a year to pursue his dreams in music making and eventually be a stay-at-home dad, plus he hates his job and I want to see him happy. Is that a horrible thing? Jesus, some of you are so judgmental. We don’t even know the whole picture.
Martina says
Ok, I am in similar situation. My boyfriend of 12 years makes really good money, I am small business owner. He has his own house (his kids and his mom with help live there), I rent my small town house. I pay my rent, our food, sometimes our flight tickets, he pays only for tv and once a year holiday mostly to my country of origins where accommodation is for free. When we go out to eat I pay most of the time, it’s his “dividends” as he calls it, because he bought the business for me, as I am foreigner and this was only option for me to stay in the country unless I’m married. I am about to buy my own house, he said he will give me 100K ( south african rand ) how generous, but he bought his son 1 mil car cash, oh and I am planing to spend about 1,2 mil on the house. He collects muscles cars and spends lots of money as all the stuff needs to be imported, now i am talking at least 100k a month or he bank rolls his friends with loans that never get paid back. But one bad business month for me, I need to pay every cent he lend me. I do love him but if I was alone, I would probably be better off then hanging on some promised land. My only worry is as foreigner, most of my stuff was put on his name including my business and I’d go out with nothing, and be forced to leave the country.
Lindsey M. Ball says
This is an interesting question because it makes me believe that certain women need to really think hard about what sort of partner they want to be in a relationship. Traditionally, it was totally socially acceptable for women to ask their husbands for money to buy groceries, go shopping or whatever. There was a reason for this though: they were usually unemployed and not expected to work but to instead care for the children.
Now, things are different. Women have jobs. The author of the letter seems to believe that, even though she is obviously capable of earning a serious salary ($100k, annually), her husband should still give her money simply because he can. Her reasoning is that she perceives her husband’s lack of generosity as a character flaw.
However, this issue does not simply appear four years after you met the person. From the very beginning, men and women set parameters on money issues. From the very first date, we make the judgment call about whether our partnership will be more traditional (the man foots the dinner bills) or more modern (the partners split bills and/or switch off on picking up the tabs). This is established in the beginning so it seems odd for the author to now be concerned about whether her fiancee is generous with her. If he and she predetermined that they would be financial partners and share costs then it is unreasonable for her to label him as non-generous and call it a dealbreaker.
At the risk of opening a can of worms, I think these issues arise because women are conditioned from birth to foster a subconscious sense of entitlement to financial stability from their husbands. An important factor when women select a mate is whether the man is financially successful. However, just because the man is financially successful does not mean he has willingly entered into a social contract to financially support her. And his disinclination to do so is not greed, he is simply a modern man who rejects the notion of financially supporting his fully employed fiancee.
CammySoul says
We cares what other people think if it’s hiw you’re feeling n it doesn’t suit you then communicate with your partner and find out what both of your long term expectations are and if they’re prepared to make more effort or not whatever the issue maybe
Nobody says
I completely understand your feelings, because I am a woman going through exactly what you are going through. Almost the same scenario. I have questioned and still question my relationship too for the exact reason. I don’t know the specifics of your relationship, but if yours is anything like mine, maybe this is how you feel (in my experience):
In a nutshell, I feel left behind.
What good am I if I’m living in richness and him living in rags? What good is he if he’s living in richness and I am in rags? (rhetorical) It feels like we are not living in the same world, not sharing the same experience, and he won’t invite me into his world, but he won’t live in my world.
Like yours, my boyfriend is a multi-millionaire. Like you, I make almost $100k. Money is obviously not an issue and “money isn’t the issue”; but the people are. Trust me, I understand this statement very well.
Outsiders would say I should be grateful because he pays for his roof, he pays for his bills, he pays for our entertainment, he pays for our food, and he can afford to spend more than most on birthdays and anniversaries. The thing is, if I’m not there, he would still be paying for the same thing, doing the same thing. What he is doing has nothing to do with me. I grew up in a poor family, so I understand too well that love is much more. Love is in the act of giving, is generous, and is inclusive.
“I will give you my world, because I don’t want you to have to be envious of others, especially not of me.” A person I once knew taught me this. You don’t have to be rich to give it your all. You just have to have a heart big enough to give more than is asked of you.
I know it hurts you when he is doing so much for him, but can’t even give a little to you without making you feel like you’re asking for too much. It’s like asking to be loved when love should already be present. My boyfriend would hesitate spending $100 on me (he doesn’t say no but his whole body language says it all) but he will flaunt his nice toy he just got for $10k. It’s not about the $100 or your $200, it’s about giving and for them to understand that it’s important for them to remind us that we are loved from time to time.
It almost make me feel like someone who has never been poor doesn’t understand the meaning of giving, because they have been receiving all their life.
And like you, I don’t know why I stay.
On a funny note, I told him that I will never be rich because I sacrifice everything I earned to make my loved ones happy. Money is just money unless you use it to add value to it. And they don’t have this, so maybe that’s why they are rich — they are attitude-ing it right. LOL.
Christopher says
I make $65,000 a year but have a networth of 1.6 million dollars.
Why?….Because I live on half what I make an invest the other half.
Most women see my lake house, luxury condo, farmland, expensive sports car I bought used for as much as most people spend on a honda civic. etc and think I am making triple what I make and expect me to blow it on them. They are in for a rude awakening.
Is he gambling??? or is he investing in the stock market….there is a big difference.
I am a very generous person and will hand out 100 dollar bills to people who look like they are struggling around the holidays etc. but the reason I am able to do this is because I sacrificed to win with money.
When your fiance sacrifices in the short term to win long term he wants to be with someone who will share those values. Not someone who wants to spend everything he sacrificed or worked so hard for.
Good for him.
TP says
I know this all too well. When you are doing all the work and spending your money on one person,and you see no return on the other end you feel used. If you can’t live within your means and expect someone else to pay for your life…….good luck. I sent a person packing for the very reason mentioned. My family’s success comes from hard work. Just because it makes life easier it does not mean you get a free ride. If your not in for the long haul and not giving your best….then you go. I don’t expect somone else’s success to influence my life. Don’t expect mine to influence yours. We each carry or own weight.
jackie says
I don’t think there is not thing wrong when woman looking for generous man. Woman want secure and generous man who she can feel safe knowing he can taking of her and his future kids.
Elizabeth says
I’ve been dating my Muslim BF for 2 years. I work for him in his resturaunt.
I manage the front ,order wine and yes, wait tables.
He pays me 5 00 an hour . My check is around 2.00 a week . Sometimes 5.00
I make between 89.00 – 200 in tips a night.
I bought my own BMW z4 and I make payments.
I was short on payments and he kicked in and help me .
I am currently paying him .
He is very controlling and jealous . He isn’t easy .
I walk on eggshells .I’m not free and I accept my life
Jo says
To Adam you seem like a nice man your right what you say ! I’m talking about being with a man that doesn’t give me money for my hair nails tan he does like that why not give me so I can treat myself I cookedfor him I loved him I’d do anything give him anything I have I don’t care what things vist if I could afford it I will get him that gift he wanted for his car or etc .. He doesn’t bring me flowers I have to ask for them I’ll arrange them myself I’m not asking for an arrangement he doesn’t out gas in my car he doesn’t do oil changes he believes I should take care of myself I have 3 kids it’s not his fault they aren’t his but he spends time with them sometimes he does give them money he does homework with them ohhh he makes great money ! I work too thank god for that I pay all my bills that’s ok I’m ok with that but he cleans my house sometimes that’s nice dinner we don’t go very often if we do it’s something quick and I’m fine with that too . I just want to feel like he would give me anything if he could because that’s me I’ll give anything I have when I love someone !
Adam says
Jo,
Thank you so much for your kind words. Also, thanks for explaining. You are right, if a woman needs to get her nails done or has other minor expenses I see nothing wrong with paying for them as long as you are in a committed relationship and she does things for you as well. Ultimately a relationship is a partnership and both partners should help each other.
One of my friends has been with the same girl since they were in high school. They fell in love when they both had nothing except their love for each other and dreams. Long story short, years later my friend ended up becoming a highly paid consultant. He ended up making well into six figures, so while not a billionaire, he was and is very successful. He has not only taken her on many fancy vacations to exotic destinations, he also paid her way through college. She didn’t HAVE to go to college and get a job, but it was her dream to get a science degree and work in this field. So he supported her while she was in school and got her master’s degree. Once she got done, she got a job in this field and since he is successful, she can work in the field she is passionate about without having to worry about money. They now have kids and have been married for over 15 years. He is still quite successful and they are still crazy about each other after all these years. Now THAT is a real love and a real relationship.
jo says
Wow Adam I love to hear stories like that 🙂 sounds like my story I married very young I was 23 he was 18 we didn’t have anything but love we grew together 8 years after the marriage we decided to have children we have 3 kids , I was a stay home mom took care of my kids took them to everyday activities homework cooked cleaned did everything a mom and wife should do and he cheated on me after 17 years married .. I loved him so much it hurted but I want him to be happy so I let go of the pain and hurt ..he’s still with the same woman I try and be very cordial with her our kids are so happy because we get along very well . He gave me everything spoiled me but at one point I didn’t have his heart and I felt empty .now I’m with this man that doesn’t like to really go eat out doesn’t like the movies says it’s a waste of money but hell take me if I want to go he never takes my girls and I places good thing is I’m ok financially I work I don’t need a man to take care of me but flowers are nice money’s nice for my hygiene I love to look pretty….my boyfriend doesn’t think he should give me money or do anything for me he says he will once we get married because he wants to make sure I’m the one I stay because I truly love him but my feelings get hurt when he only thinks about what he wants and needs . I know I need to get him out of my life but I seem to go back to him I’m very attractive so many men would like to take me out but I ignore all of them because I’m in a relationship
your mom says
My boyfriend is cheap the only time it bothers me is if there is a trip or concert I want to go to and he won’t buy a ticket because he thinks it’s too expensive. I pay for everything on my own and we split everything for bills but the events bother me. Part of living life is doing things together and that sometimes costs money
Jenine says
The fact is no matter which partner is the higher earner, if they are to be married and be “partners,” then one should not have a different standard of living than the other. If he’s just stingy and puts every dime in savings for kids, retirement, etc, and doesn’t blow anything on hobbies, clothing, or uneccessary items, then I can see him not sharing with her for anything more than NEEDS. However, if he has wants he spends on and she cannot enjoy life equally due to his greed, they should definitely not get married.
Lm says
Another perspective:
The real reason this gets under her skin has to do with the primal difference between men and women. Men are wired to “spread their seed” (need: sex). Women are wired to look for security (need: money). Since women bear the children and likely couldn’t hunt for food during their pregnancies, they literally needed security to ensure their offspring’s survival. Ok. Now, let’s look at our letter writer. Her fiance CAN provide for her and fulfill her basic needs, but he doesn’t. Of course. she’ll view it as lack of love. Reverse it, what if she denied him HIS primal need of sex? He’d be extremely unhappy. Agree? In comes resentment. Women often overlook it when a man is broke, but rarely overlook it when the man’s wealthy.
Alyssa says
I have a friend who ran into this problem with a person they were dating, not wanting to do anything but free things but was happy to let them spend their money when they were treating the other person.
This article, out of the whole internet, was the BEST viewpoint from both sides, and I am very appreciative the way it was presented – all other articles were very myopic in their analysis.
Excellent POV I will be book marking this!
Victor shebandah says
Having money is one thing,being seen or imagined to have money is another. This guy may actually be broke according to his definition of brokenness. She said they were to get married but she didn’t tell us how much she is injecting into the wedding plans and costs and who is playing center stage in terms of finance? Men are not comfortable being multi tasked. Finally Earn his money!
Jessica says
Laura, I think you were more attached to the idea of him having money than the actual emotions that come to play. I think when you really love someone you do not expect anything in return if anything it should motivate you to try to show him that you are also able to provide a pretty good living for yourself. Think about it no one likes to feel as if they were being used or taken advantage of. Put yourself in his place, money has a way of emerging many “fake” people because overall they are only after one thing MONEY. So maybe things will change when you become his wife after all this might be one of his grand ways of weeding out the gold-diggers in his life. If you love the man you will love him with or without his money and if he’s taking care of everything else I think 45k is more than enough for your personal necessities.
Tay says
Jessica, I think you missed the point. This guy can easily watch her stress and struggle and not offer to help even in a way very easy for him. Secondly a person with that much money usually lives in a very expensive area. So gas, food, clothing, car repair, doctors, etc are all very expensive in the immediate area. They will be living, most likely in his home in that type of area. Come with me and try to buy groceries for a family for a week at Whole foods in California and I will show you how far $200 goes, not very far. This guy probably does have a certain quality level for taste and health and she probably does not have time to soak and cook everything from scratch. So what is she to do? Drive thirty fourty minutes in traffic to find a food for less and USA gas station so she can stay within her middle America budget. He buys good food for himself and she has a different dinner of lesser quality when at home???? In reality, it will cost HER more just by being married to him if he’s stingy than if she were on her own.
Secondly, what was the courtship like. The average man sounds like he will put in more effort for courtship than this guy and on that note, I would have said deuces a long time ago.
Mrs. Wife says
Wow what a cheap therapy session this is !
Cant wait to start my own Anyways,
If someone is married then maybe they gave up a lot and shouldnt be punished, harrassed, bullied, etc. There is a reason for marriage and actually in India marriage is accepted as a status symbol. You are in a higher caste and respected. Also, that cute young wife may have been a mom and have a cute adult daughter. She may have intelligence and worked for what she has. She may have previously bought her own vehicles. She may be doing everything she can and due to her location the employment is lacking. There are more variables than just, oh he’s older than her and owns a house. She has the education and experience, but is unwilling to get an apartment b/c she has wasted lots of money on apartments !!!! She has her own life, sucka.
Mrs. Wife says
I shared my situation on here because I myself have an unresolved issue due to dating then marrying someone who gives money too much power over themselves. The goodness of marriage is destroyed when one person abuses their power and makes the other feel terrible about themselves and their situation with abusive comments like,”well I earn the money” or ” well, you’ll never earn what I earn”, or “your’e family is terrible and your daughter is a whore” type comments. This stuff builds up. I know that what he is telling me is bs, but I listen to it and disregard it until I am self sufficient.If you have dated someone for 4.5 years, 7 years, or 10 years, and they are frugal it may be for a reason and they won’t change. One reason to save money yourself is eventually you need to pay for home repairs, dental work, car repairs and insurance, your retirement, and unexpected expenses. This stuff is in thousands of dollars range. Yes Thousands, not 2000, 3000, or 5000. Probably 50-100,000 and up.
Definition of miser : The word for the cheapest of all cheap husbands is “Miser.” This is someone who is so miserable with the fact that they have money saved that they will let it affect their mood, behaviors, and relationships with others. No kidding. They may not have any relationships with others because they feel that other people would only be out to get them good or take advantage of them. The only way to leave this individual is to be cheap yourself, become self sufficient then leave.
Denise Latham says
Wow!! I have never looked at things from that perspective. Women and men think so totally different. Thanks for sharing the male perspective. It’s not always easy for me as a woman to understand things from male perspective but I am certainly willing to try. Thanks again!!
David says
If the tables were turned it would be a completely different story. When it comes to the female perspective on money, logic must be dismissed. The money she makes is HERS and the money he makes is THEIRS. She is a straight up gold digger. Kudos to the author for asking “Would you be marrying him if HE made $45,000?” but I bet that’s just “victim-blaming” or some other made up feminazi term.
Evan Marc Katz says
We don’t use “feminazi” here.
Tay says
Good call Evan. You give sound and balanced advice and this type of reader tends not to be very magnetic, especially to real gold diggers who probably aren’t even digging for him anyway. Don’t know why he’s upset.
Women an are actually very caring and generous not just to their families but to the whole community when they become advantaged out of struggle. There are statistics on this. Now people who were born wealthy, that is another story. But many women in high society whether they make as much as their husband, whether they graduated top of their class, or not DO expect a man who is willing to pay for their level of lifestyle not out of necessity but because that is how women like to feel taken care of. Not having to stress about bills and the house. Men feel taken care of when women cook and are open for love time. A lot of women would prefer Chocolate to sex so if you can’t give a woman money atleast give her chocolate, lol. A stressed out woman is a woman with no libido.
Tay says
Classic case of a man not rich in spirit. I could not care if a man was the richest billionaire in the world if he would have me out here stressed out and spinning my wheels unsupported. Libido killer.
Brianna says
I don’t agree with your advice at all. This woman should leave this man. He makes her feel undervalued. I hate men and people in general who are miserly and cheap. This guy is selfish and it shows. So what if she gets to live in a nice house. Every birthday and holiday is going to be miserable because he is a cheap bastard who doesn’t care about her enough to spend any money on her. He only cares about himself. He doesn’t deserve a person to be with. She needs to leave him and either go off by herself or find a generous spirited man who will take good care of her and make her feel special. As a general rule, women are the caretakers and the gift givers and men are selfish and hate giving gifts because they are just so selfish and can’t be bothered to think of others. I have seen this scenario play out a thousand times with the men I work with and the couples I know in real life. It is sad and sorry. Women deserve better. I am married to a cheap and selfish man myself and this christmas was the worst. He has a lot of money and spends a lot on himself. But I spent about 1500 on him for Christmas and what did I get, a cheap necklace, socks, a scratchy flannel shirt. I returned everything because it was all cheap crap from Amazon. I didn’t even go out to any stores. I hate him.
Brianna says
How about making him go get groceries every other time, instead of you doing the shopping and asking him to pay half? If he can’t chip in to pay for half of your groceries, either just buy for yourself only or make him go shopping every other time. I don’t understand why he can’t even cough up some money to buy his own food. What the hell os wrong with this guy?
DudeNamedBen says
All these women complaining that their men have money but at the same time they’re complaining he’s cheap. Well ladies, how do you think he got all that wealth? I’ll give you a hint. Not by blowing it all on silly little things he doesn’t need! Oh and by the way, where is YOUR money? Whenever a woman is complaining about a man being “cheap” it’s her way of saying that she’s broke and he’s not naïve enough to blow his bank account on a her. A man can fix stuff and use it again but a woman sees a little dirt on something and they’ll throw it out and go shopping again. There’s a reason the top richest people in the world are all men.
Mark says
We really need to know the context in which this occurred i.e., is the $200 just to buy something for herself? Is this the first time she’s asked for the money? What has she done to show that she loves him? We live in the 21st century now. Bringing up the notion of a “real” man is outdated and sexist. It came from a time when women weren’t allowed to work and the men were the sole providers. If you still want a real man, then a “real” woman would be stuck at home taking care of the kids, doing laundry, cooking 3 full meals a day in the kitchen, washing the dishes afterwards, gardening, doing their husband’s bidding, etc. If she’s working, I feel she shouldn’t be asking for money unless it was a necessity and not just something she wanted. Do realize the whole concept of marriage is a compromise: you’re giving up something financially, emotionally, spatially, and temporally. But it’s often so that you both gain something from each other that you lack.
Dee says
If he’s that wealthy, why is he being so stingy when it comes to her asking for $200.00 for groceries?
I met my current boyfriend two years ago right after his financial crisis of losing his practice, his Mercedes, his credit, etc. for the first year and a half I felt like a human atm, he’d borrow $, then pay me right back. He’d always pay me back. He always treated me well, is a great person and when he did have spare change, he’d treat us to a nice dinner/ movie. He always talked about getting engaged, etc. I’m also a single mom with two teenagers, so after awhile him always asking for $$ (even though he’s reimburse me), became really annoying, I put my foot down. He was very successful then had trouble finding a job and making ends meet after we met. I hung in there, supported him, encouraged him. After he sold his house to move closer to me, he profited $200k. He paid off some debt, and invested the rest. No ring. I even bought a car in my name for him to drive (I was sooo hesitate, didn’t want to do it, but told me he’s pay it off when he sold the house), got a 3 bedroom apt., (for us and kids), 6 months later… gives his adult children $$, his other daughter clothes, nails, the ex wife, fixes her car, me? No ring yet “it’s coming after steady income at least 3 months”. I am now unemployed, going back to school full time to earn my degree (it’ll take 1 year), and working for family business part-time. He offered me $100.00 a week to clean the apt., make 3 dinners a week for him and his son. Ok, fine. Still no ring even After him talking about it for two years almost every other day. He’s taking his kids to Disney over the summer. I can’t afford it right now, he has the $$, but guess who’s not going to Disney? Me and my kids. We’ve never gone, he’s taken his kids several times throughout the years. Mind you, his first two are adults they can pay for themselves.
I am ready to walk. I’ve done so much to support and be a stand for this man out of love, and in the end I don’t feel like I’m getting the same generosity in return. I’ve become resentful. So i’ve Stopped being as generous, started spending more time taking care of my life and accomplishing what I need to, to move forward. I’m not hurt, I just don’t feel like investing so much of my time with someone who turned out to be stingy.
The poster doesn’t seem to have it too bad, maybe this guy sees her as being capable and doesn’t want her to become too reliant on him. But if he truly loves her, taking care of her financially should be pretty easy, she doesn’t come off as she wants to spend a ton of his money on nonsense, she just wants to feel comfortable, like she doesn’t have to worry. And he has the means. He’s being stingy. Stingy with money, stingy with love.
Lia says
I don’t know when this entry was made but I hope the letter writer did not marry this man with money .
I think Evan doesn’t understand her point and can’t empathize with her and instead emphatizes with the man.
Yes, it is better to marry a man who makes 45K and shares himself and everything he has with you, like you share with him . It’s about caring about you and having your back, like a husband should. It’s about not making you feel like a second class citizen in that marriage, like a Cinderella. It’s aboir being warm and caring and loving .
Evan says that he may love you but he’s cheap and selfish. I agree that he may love you as much as he can love , but it is not enough. A man cheap with his money is going to be cheap with other things : his affection, his time , his love . It is going to get much worse after the wedding.
Living in a big house won’t cut it. I hope you left this man and found one who’s there for you through thick and thin , no matter how much money he makes. If you two don’t make enough, you’ll work together to better yourselves but as a team, not as a boss and an employee he tolerates as long as they know their place.
Lia says
I hope the letter writer left this man and married a guy who makes 45K and has her back through thick and thin. Living in a big house … big whop when you don’t feel supported and cared about .
Reece says
My fiancé is a good guy he does a lot. He spends time, he’s there physically when you need him. However, if I’m struggling monetary wise he turns deaf ear. He will ask what’s wrong but he will not offer to help. I would have to ask for it. When I do ask his reaction isn’t cool. He will breathe hard and have this scared look in his face. He always struggle to want to help me. I had to get a second job in order to do what I needed to do because I knew it would be a problem getting money from him, to help. He wants to get married and he wants me to have a child. I don’t have security with him. Why is that when women want money from men your quick to say we equate money to love. I feel if a man won’t come out of his pockets when it counts and will leave you hanging, you have to get a second job to get the things you want. He is the one that loves his money more than me. At first I would do things buy him gifts here and there, pay for dinner, get massages etc. to show that I can do those things. I like being pampered and a little spoiled by my man, what’s so wrong with that? However, this didn’t work. Now, I follow his lead. When I’m not happy I don’t want to have sex. Why should I keep giving it up when I’m not worth the money? At the end of the day we all want love but women want security, whether it be money, their man taking up for them, security is what women want. Men want sex, attention and someone that’s attractive. It’s like people are afraid to tell it like it really is. When a women wants her man to spoil her we are the bad guys. But they can get everything they want from us. Sex, kids, attention, a female that is self sufficient. So why even have a man if you can do it all for yourself. What does he get to do? I guess nothing because self sufficient women is doing it all. I Don’t care what these self sufficient women and feminist say…women that have money still want a man on occasion show up with a gift every now and again., or pay a bill. Not all women is on that kick that they don’t need a man to provide for them. What if ole ms self sufficient/feminist ever lost her job or got fired. I bet she would want her man to come through and have her back financially….and not ignore her situation. I’m sure she would want her man to come through financially…period. Especially if she is still putting out. So please don’t knock women that want a man to come out his pockets or for wanting security. The man is suppose to be the provider but women took that job too. Not all women make more than there husbands, fiancés and boyfriends. Does a women need to work 2 and 3 jobs to avoid asking her man? Should a man never have to come out of pocket because you have money? or don’t have money?
I guess it’s to each’s own, so stop judging the women that looks for her man to help financially. Help her out, help make her life easier, especially if you can. As a man, he should want to help his lady…period.
Janna says
I agree with your sentiments completely and I am feeling the same way. I don’t know what to do. Im basically exhausted looking after myself and even though he earns way way more than me he’s cheap and expects sex all the time and then calls me down to boot… A line has to be drawn somewhere when you’re fighting without the ability to maintain decent boundaries (not as if im a pushover either but compassion and kindness in the wrong place can get taken advantage of). I think im going to move out of his nice home into my own apartment next month. At least I can live with my own dignity in tact. He always tells me I need to go meet a rich guy. It’s not that I want a rich guy…. I just want someone who makes me feel worth it and feel like I matter… You don’t have to be rich to be a good human to another person…the older I get the more I realize this. And another thing, if a rich guy has money but doesn’t have any real higher goals or bigger purpose for his future for the betterment of others is he really ‘rich’? Something to think about.
Janna says
First off, if people are cheap with their money with the ones they’re supposed to love the most , it’s a good indicator that there’s a deeper personality flaw than just money, and yes, it is selfish. Im tired of hearing men complain about having to spend money on women. The day women start earning an equivalent amount and given the same access and opportunities is the day men don’t have to be expected to foot the bill to take care of women. You say he’s ‘not abusive’ and it’s simply just a downplayed character flaw. Well maybe it’s the case but typically it goes hand in hand. Abusive people lack the core empathy that makes us human. What is she supposed to be poor and beg and have nothing for him to have the heart to share freely with her? Because that sounds completely logical and acceptable. Face it, if you love someone and they need something you nor refuse them nor be taken advantage of. If you refuse to take care of them then let’s face it you’re just a cheapskate and she should move on to someone who treats her like she deserves.
Marianne says
@jas best answer. My man whom we are talking engagement and moving together is selfish. While he’s not obligated, I struggle financially sometimes while he talks about his 100k car or he made 30k last month. I always spend money on his needs if I’m out at the store, cooking prep meals, buying breakfast and he reciprocates 25% of my 75% spent. I have bought him shoes and clothes if I see something I know he likes, he will never do the same. He works two jobs and owns a business I may see him 1-2 hours in a week and he works 5 minutes away literally. He would rather be alone in then spend his time with me. He can leave work and come to my home anyway. He has door access. I love him so very much and try to sacrifice whatever I can I keep us together despite both of our hectic lives and short comings. I still think he doesn’t realize how to be more selfless and what it means to sacrifice for me. Idk it’s complicated but I have no peace I’m always anxious. Not to mention he makes me insecure. Trying to detach or eventually prepare to leave.
Deonjha says
I don’t understand why a lot of women want more than they can provide. You expect him to do things you can’t do for yourself sounds crazy. Also men, why date women who don’t match your level. When both parties are financially well off then building is more better. You can’t expect the best when u at your minimal unless you can change that yourself first. You can’t be mad at someone else business. I feel like ppl need their own accounts and the joint one should be bills only. Their accounts should be for their own personal use.
Cathalei says
18.1
Marriage is a contract that both parties enter -supposedly- willingly into, so they should fulfil their end of the bargain WHILE the contract stands. It is irrelevant what they do after (if) they split.
Someone who earns that much probably would not want to live in a modest residence which can be afforded comfortably through a tenth of his earnings. Maybe that was what pushed him to prioritize his affluence. Such a decision has to be mutual, and the wife could very well be ashamed to ask about it; less she sounded like she was complaining. We do not know what the case is, but if you are so resentful of the prospect of financially carrying a part of someone’s load, don’t marry them. If that looks like “subsidizing” to you they are not marriage material for you. Your common expenses are your common expenses, and if one party cannot pay it off, responsibility to lay it off falls on you as much as on them. “You are living in this house because of ME” attitude is off putting. No matter how true it holds, they can list off the things they do too. Either way, it is your partnership (contract) that suffers.
Rome says
I’ve been in this situation before and I talked to him about it and realized that he was in 2 relationships in the past where he found out he was being used and taken advantage of for his money. So he I guess stuff like that triggers him and he never wants to be taken advantage of ever again so he gets weird about it. He told me that once we get married he will feel more comfortable because now I would be with him forever and he wouldn’t have to worry about getting used…. maybe your man is going through the same.
David Blake says
AllHeart81
What do you mean when you say men need to consider women’s desires. Are you referring to sexual or money?
Also, Yes women have not had opportunities in the past butt they have them now and women still want a guy to take Care of them. Quality…can do something else if they want to but they do it because it is earlier than being an engineer,doctor or something else. o you mean rich,tall and good looking. Strippers ha
Cat says
Hi Lara, I feel I’m in a very similar situation. ( very). My boyfriend has also been bringing up marriage as well. Maybe I’ve got it all wrong but I can’t help but feel that things will change once I’m his wife. Do you feel the same? Did you get married yet?