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Saw this video on a friend’s Facebook page and wanted to share it with you.
It made me think two things:
1) While we can quibble with the messenger, the message is pretty spot on. Much of it – apart from the appearance stuff – can be read in Why He Disappeared, in fact.
2) I should start making YouTube videos that get 100,000 hits.
What do you think of this guy’s “rules” and are there any with which you disagree?
(By the way, comments that list the equivalent rules for men and what’s wrong with men will be summarily deleted. That’s not the point of this post. —The Management)
Fawn says
In one word, fantastic – and very entertaining! I am totally on board. Thanks for sharing, Evan!
Maeve says
I think he could have summarized most of it as “do unto others as you would have others do unto you,” but if it pays his bills, more power to him.
Sole quibble with #7: shaving isn’t hygeine, and this is far from a universal preference among men, though pop culture certainly wouldn’t have anyone believe so.
MsV says
I’m not much of a commenter on blogs, but I’m a avid reader of your blog. The rule that had me looking at the woman in the mirror is number 2. The more I think about it I rarely compliment the men in my life, be it guys I’m dating or just friends However, I regularly compliment female friends. I guess I always assumed women need to hear compliments more than guys.
Note to self…
Steve says
While we can quibble with the messenger
I thought the delivery was great. All of that laughing emptied my lungs out.
I should start making YouTube videos that get 100,000 hits.
Correction 100,001 hits. I had to vote that video up. Funny and full of useful information. Great choice EMK!
starthrower68 says
The delivery of the message was colorful.
Foolingmyself says
LMAO! THAT WAS GREAT!!!
Matilda says
He is great!!! I laughed a lot! Funny reminder of some basics. “Ladies, Keep yourself fresh and brush your teeth!! LOL!!! Same piece of advice for men…guys you tend to sweat a bit more than girls.. Keep a deo with you. 😉
Rene says
Thanks Evan! He was awesome, honest, blunt, and very entertaining!! I love it!
Lea says
I like it.
I agree with everything he said and the way he said it. Funny but honest.
Susan says
Interesting but wouldn’t be necessary if guys followed half of this advice themselves!
Jane says
I don’t care— I thought this vid was fabulous! I love straight talk for one. And, I think the dude was right on. I didn’t agree with everything like @Maeve regarding shaving but overall props to this man!
Tina Carlson says
Can’t he say a complete sentence without foul swear words?
I can’t hear the message over the delivery system! If I hear anyone, male or female, talking like this I walk away and write them off.
mslove says
This is a PERFECT video. And yes, you should do youtube videos.
Thanks for posting this!
maria
The InBetweener says
@ Tina Carlson #12
He probably could, but then he probably wouldn’t have as many ‘you-tube hits’. It seems to be effective for him (not to mention humorous). 🙂
JB says
@Maeve and Jane…You’re right he doesn’t speak for ALL men.I hate shaving,waxing etc… as do a lot of my friends.We love au naturel as long as it’s clean.You can do the armpits though…lol
Julianne says
so funny! … but what does….”don’t pop up” mean??!
Venus says
LOL! That was a little too colourful but very funny!
I accept most of his points but was wondering about the one where he said that women talk too much. I don’t think its asking too much to for a guy to engage in some conversation with his partner. Or is he perhaps saying that women complain too much. Now that’s a different matter.
Margo says
Overall I agreed with the video. There was one rule that I agrreed with in spirit, but I won’t be doing anything sexually that I find distasteful. I think it’s every person’s right to say no to something that makes them feel uncomfortable.
Bridget says
I wish I would have seen this sooner. What a pep talk, now I feel really sorry for not have complimented my man more, and it may be too late now.
Margo says
Julianne, “don’t pop up” means don’t show up at a guy’s house unexpectantly.
"Doris" says
*LOL* — Love the clapping.
Most all of it was good, though I could have done without the f’n this and that.
I don’t shave my putang (can’t we write that here???) and I have a hard time with this guy thinking that is expected. Trimming is fine, shaving is actually a great way to spread stds and to hurt yourself during that infamous “rough sex.” Seriously. Grown adults have pubic hair and he needs to get over it.
-From Nor Cal and Proud of It! 😉
Melissa says
Ha! This was entertaining and pretty dead on. Although I would have to say one thing……as far as being open sexually to your man……I wouldn’t recommend crossing any moral boundaries, as this would sabotage the relationship anyway. Just do whatever you feel comfortable with, don’t try to change who you are inside just to please someone, if that is what you feel is necessary than there is someone else out there more compatable! Other than that, it was great 🙂
Zann says
LOVED IT……especially “Don’t be talkin’ a f*#king hole in your man’s head.” Too funny.
I liked his non-pretentious delivery — not-New-Age bone in that motherf*#ker’s body! Refreshing, actually.
starthrower68 says
@ Margo #18,
You know, good old-fashioned sex isn’t good enough anymore. We’ve become so de-sensitized as a society that we always have to up the ante.
BeenThruTheWars says
@Julianne 16, my guess would be for women NOT to “just happen to show up” at his favorite hangout when he’s with the guys, or on his doorstep (making sure he’s where he said he would be, keeping tabs). No one likes a stalker, especially one who talks too much and wears nasty ol’ granny panties. :>
Lynn says
This was absolutely hysterical! What an *articulate* guy! And I think he pretty much has given great advice. But of course, not as good as your advice, Evan ;D
james says
dead on…
and the delivery was great!!!
Detha says
Great vid………………………….Thx Evan!
maria says
I’m with Tina, if he can’t speak English without obscenities, I’m not interested! Trashy!
Gem says
Funny! Great rules, too!
Maeve says
Doris @21–Exactly!
The pornification of regular sex bugs me to no end. I am not a porn star, I don’t want to be a porn star and I’m not going to pretend to be a porn star.
I think maybe this guy has a problem with his girl picker. Lots of girls are shy/quiet and don’t talk a guy’s ear off (as a girl I can state that it’s equally annoying when the guy won’t stop talking). And girls aren’t the only ones who “pop up.” A guy I’ve recently started dating showed up at my house unexpectedly three times this weekend.
Nicole says
I’m not sure that being open sexually means that you have to be like a porn star. But I also think he could be referring to people who won’t do anything beyond plain old missionary. I mean, he referred to nasty stuff in his video, but there are plenty of people who won’t go beyond missionary style in the bedroom either. I’ve been shocked by what male friends say they get shot down for requesting…and I’m no wild child.
I think that there are a lot of ways to fulfill a man’s fantasies that don’t involve playing a porn star. Why does everyone’s mind go to the worst possible scenario, or worse yet, perhaps something so heinous that they don’t even really know what it might be, yet are sure that it would be porn-like and degrading?
Maybe a man can chime in but I think you guys are assuming that men want sick things when they say be “open,” and that’s not what I assume at all.
This guy reminds me of Joe Torre…
Clearly some of the stuff, like body hair, is a personal preference, but if you’ve ever lived in a college dorm with roommates or a shared bathroom, you’d know that some people, male and female, are “hygenically” challenged in a way that defies reason, so it’s not bad advice. Again, talk to men about the horrors of being with a woman who just isn’t clean…
Maeve says
Nicole, if you read the comment I’m responding to, it was about shaving; and in the video he clearly and explicitly said that hygeine=shaving your pubic hair.
This expectation–that a well-groomed woman is nearly hairless everywhere–is well-documented to have come from the popularization of porn following its free availability online. It didn’t come from Venus or Saturn or the ether. Rather, the common availability of images of “hot” women who removed their hair taught (particularly young) men that this was COMMON, when it wasn’t, and they then brought that expectation to their relationships, where girls desperate to “keep their man” complied. If you want to see one accessible example of this kind of research, see “Pornland”:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/31731972/An-excerpt-from-Pornland-How-Porn-has-Hijacked-our-Sexuality-by-Gail-Dines
all the Ps have been stripped out so it’s a trick to read but it’ll give you the general gist.
So when I say I’m not going to pretend to be a porn star, that’s what I’m referring to. Why would you assume it had anything to do with the openness thing? I hadn’t even brought that up.
sharon says
The sex advice is dicey. Men have that madonna / whore complex. If you’re the doing the nasty, you’re probably not the girl he wants to bring home to mom. As a bottom heavy lady I’m constantly harassed for anal sex. (The begging, bardering, and “accidental” slips.) As I’m sure many of you have also gone through. I no big moral issue against. It’s just not pleasurable. And the threesome issue. What man doesn’t ask for a threesome at some point in the relationship? I know there are some men out there with more conventional interests but given the fast majority of under 40’s have some high expectations how can you find a compromise?
Ames says
Great message! Most of these things are easy to do and cost nothing. Women are used to being complimented ALL THE TIME. Men are really taken aback and pleased to be complimented (unless he’s the 10 guy who’s had his tail kissed all his life–in that case he’s probably high maintenance.)
The hardest item on this list to maintain is weight. I work 65 hours a week on my feet and that’s when the weight came on. But being groomed, made up and smelling great should be something people do anyway! Who wants to be sloppy?
It took me a long time to learn guys don’t talk like girls. I save the long soul searching chats for girlfriends and give the guys bullet points. He hears what I have to say and I get the important points in.
mslove says
The ones that do not agree with this video will not keep a man. PERIOD.
He simplified a couple of rules with humor.
Like he said, men are afraid to be honest because of what is going on now. Some of you are critisizing what a man wants.
He said stay groomed and hygentic down there.
He said be spontaneous and open sexually. Go read some magazines.
I talk to men all the time and they say they want a woman in the streets and a FREAK in the sheets.
And any man that is successful and a quality man has MANY options.
You do not have to do anything, but someone else will.
This man is telling the truth. I had to google some sexual things to keep things interesting with my man. And it worked.
Do you want to be cheated on?
starthrower68 says
@ Nichole #32,
If you’ve looked at some of the on-line stuff recently, you’ll know why women are quick to think worst case scenario when it comes to being sexually “open”. I agree with you, something other than the missionary position, no big deal. When a guy starts getting into the territory of three or more-somes, whips, chains, handcuffs, etc, or any other wierd stuff you can come up with, that’s over the top. Obviously, if a woman is into all of that, then more power to her. I also had a couple of guys insist on talking about how they shaved their nether regions. When I’m just getting to know you, that is TMI.
Karl R says
There seem to be a few places where people are disagreeing.
Rule #10: Be sexually open
I’d say you’re being sexually open if you’re willing to try new and different things. I don’t expect anyone to enjoy every possible thing they try.
To give an analogy that may be easier to connect with, let’s say you’ve cooked a new recipe. What is your opinion of someone who says, “That sounds disgusting; there’s no way I’m trying that.” You would have a much different opinion of someone who at least tried it and then decided they didn’t like it. Even if they told you, “I tried that before and I really didn’t like it,” it still would indicate that they were open-minded about trying new things.
Several months ago, my fiancée and I ended up with a bunch of sex toys as part of a gag. (A gag is a type of joke, for those of you not familiar with the term.) While we wouldn’t have considered buying most of them for personal use, we decided to try each of them, one at a time, the next several times we had sex.
We expected that some might be physically uncomfortable. Others were certainly going to take us outside of our mental comfort zone. But we tried them all. For over half, our criticism was, “It’s really not doing that much for me.” Our favorite ended up being one that we both expected to be physically uncomfortable.
While I’m not going to suggest that you ought to continue doing something that you find uncomfortable, you might want to consider doing something that’s slightly uncomfortable if it works exceptionally well for your partner.
As an example of that, a lot of my sex partners have greatly enjoyed having oral sex performed upon them. If a woman doesn’t shave/trim/wax, I will end up with loose hairs in my mouth before I’m finished. (It’s not my favorite sensation.) If the woman trims, I’ll end up getting “stubble-burn” around my mouth. (Again, uncomfortable.) But for a lot of partners, it’s the difference between her having an orgasm or not.
If the man is regularly doing something that he finds mildly uncomfortable because you enjoy it, how do you think it comes across if you absolutely refuse to do anything you find uncomfortable for his benefit?
As for moral issues, the bible and Torah are explicit about whom you have sex with … not how you have sex.
I’m not seeing the correlation between porn and trying new things. Porn is created to be stimulating to a third party who is visually observing … regardless of how ineffective/uncomfortable it feels for the actual participants. In real life, you want to try things that feel good for one or both of you … regardless of how visually uninteresting they might appear.
But if you’re going to avoid stuff that feels good (in favor of old-fashioned sex) just because it’s “like porn,” to me that smacks of elitist snobbery.
Rule #7: Stay fresh
Shaving preferences tend to be culturally based. Either way, you’ll be ruling out some men. If you rule out too many, you’re going to have a harder time dating.
Rule #9: Don’t talk him to death
I’ve been friends with a number of shy people. Most of them were quiet until they got to know someone, then they were just as talkative as anyone else. (The exceptions are a minority.)
If you’re the only person contributing to a “conversation,” then it’s not actually a conversation. You can recognize it when you see it happening with two strangers. The same applies when you’re the one talking. Learn to recognize it then, too.
This isn’t a matter of him choosing the wrong woman. Nobody likes being talked at for long periods of time.
Overall
Yes, most of these rules apply to men too. He acknowledged that with several of them. If you’re focused on how men need to do this too, you’re not focused on how they apply to you.
starthrower68 says
@Karl #38,
It smacks of elitist snobbery to you because you disagree with that person’s likes and dislikes. If it’s not fair to consider a man a perverted freak because of his likes and dislikes, then it’s not fair to consider a woman an elitist snob because of her likes and dislikes. But that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. And it also depends on how much you want that man in your life as to what you are willing to do or not do.
Gem says
Starthrower, #38
“And it also depends on how much you want that man in your life as to what you are willing to do or not do.”
That’s the whole point. The title is “12 Rules to Keep a Man. If you’re not that into him, you’re not going to care to keep him. I think the basic rule to “be open sexually” is a great one. Men and Women need to be open to what their partner may want to try and Karl is suggesting that it may not be the most scary, crazy thing you can think of, but maybe just something different or out of your comfort zone. Being open to at least TRY something may be a pleasant suprise.
I asked my last boyfriend if he had any fantasies that he wanted to try. He got all sheepish and I thought he was going to suggest something REALLY freaky. He ended up saying he wanted us to have sex outside, on his seadoo the next time we were on the lake.
He was sheepish because he wasn’t sure how I’d react or if I’d be open to it since we’d never discussed fantasies before. I said, “Hell to the Yeah!” Nothing porn-ish or freaked out, just something new and different and a little risky of being seen. But it was great fun. I’m glad I had asked him and was open to fulfill that for him/us.
Nicole says
Actually, I think that the full wax job (Brazilian) caught on when a lot of celebrities started talking about it publicly. People tried in on vacation in Brazil, and then in spas that did it, which were rare at one point. As someone mentioned, opinions about that are culturally based. So not EVERYONE finds that look appealing. If you’ve seen the swimsuits in Brazil, then you’ll know why it’s just easier to take it all off. And I wouldn’t equate an entire country’s aesthetic preferences with porn.
I don’t think that many women are doing it to look like porn stars, since we are not the primary consumers of porn (yes, women use porn but it’s not a 50:50 split).
I personally don’t know anyone who started getting Brazilians because a man requested it. A lot of younger women always kept things groomed b/c of swimsuits, and then as Brazilians became available and popular, a lot more people tried it. And once they tried it, they liked the way it looks and felt and kept it up.
I’d say a lot of 20 something and younger men are seeing it as the norm b/c their girlfriends all have that particular waxing habit, but I don’t think the girls are doing it initially because a guy prefers it. Some men don’t like it because of the whole prepubescent angle.
I didn’t say that it was a hygiene issue but both men and women complain of the difficulty of properly drying up down there, which CAN become an issue, and I’ve heard hilarious and disturbing stories from what a lot of men do with shared hair dryers in gym locker rooms.
Also, that guy didn’t specify what groomed meant. It could mean trimmed, it could mean clean, it could men partially or fully waxed. You don’t know what he meant and I don’t either, but we’re BOTH projecting our views of how extreme the advice was.
Perhaps the issue here is that once again, these rules are being taken to the level of extreme hyperbole, because I don’t think being sexually open has to mean threesomes and painful practices either. Not for someone that a man is planning to marry you at least. There is a lot in between and I think that a man that care about you is not going to ask you to do degrading things.
Born Again Virgin says
This is my first comment, and at 55 yrs old, I’m in the process of divorcing my gay husband. Try spending 11 years (my last 11) living celibate and wondering what the hell was wrong with me, and I was pretty willing to do anything. Try having your guy flinch or leap out of bed. Pretty demoralizing.
Well, I had an affair last fall (with my first straight guy), and the first thing I told him after we slept together was that I’d never tell him “no”. I’d never be too tired, too busy, have a headache, be not in the mood. I have been living a freaking drought, and if a guy wants something I haven’t done, I’ll be quite willing to give a try. There are limits of what I’d try, but I won’t be squeamish for sure
Yes, I’m guilty of talking too much. I was told that by the straight guy. But, being married to a closeted gay man, you realize they talk like your women friends. It will be hard for me to get used to that one — talking too much. I’m not sure how to go about having a normal conversation, as that guy was my only experience.
As far as trying 3-somes? Um, no. I’ve lived gay, and I ain’t going there. If a guy wanted to bring (a) a guy or (b) a woman in, I’d run like my hair was on fire. I would question very seriously any man who wants to see you get it on with another woman. Talk to some of my support group men about their wives running off with other women, and you’ll understand.
Frankly, I thoroughly enjoyed what he said. I use the “f” word a lot more than I ever did, but with living through my marriage, I think I earned that right.
Karl R says
starthrower68 said: (#39)
“It smacks of elitist snobbery to you because you disagree with that person’s likes and dislikes.”
Have you actually tried the things you mentioned (“three or more-somes, whips, chains, handcuffs, etc, or any other wierd stuff you can come up with”)? If not, how can you characterize them as your likes and dislikes?
The snobbery is from broadly characterizing those things as coming from porn, and then avoiding them because of that association. This has nothing to do with fair or unfair. When it comes to dating, I don’t consider “fair/unfair” to be relevant terms.
In fact, all of the things you mentioned predate the internet, videos and glossy photographs in magazines. I quickly thumbed through one of my fiancée’s books (erotic art of China, Japan, India and Nepal). About 1/3 of the paintings were of three or more-somes. A number of the Japanese paintings involved bondage. The Indian and Nepalese paintings clearly included inspiration from the kama sutra (sex while holding yoga poses) and also included heavy use of intoxicants and some “weird stuff” (like the couple facing each other while seated on two swings suspended from the ceiling).
sharon said: (#34)
“Men have that madonna / whore complex. If you’re the doing the nasty, you’re probably not the girl he wants to bring home to mom.”
That’s a myth. We want a lady in public and a freak in the bed. For example, when we bring you home to mom, we don’t want you telling her about how we’re doing the nasty.
sharon asked: (#34)
“And the threesome issue. What man doesn’t ask for a threesome at some point in the relationship?”
According to my fiancée, she’s never been directly asked about having a threesome. Though she did encounter a bit of innuendo when she was younger.
sharon asked: (#34)
“given the fast majority of under 40”²s have some high expectations how can you find a compromise?”
When you’re drawing a boundary, make certain that your position is more reasonable than his. He wants a threesome? Tell him that you’ll consider bringing home another man and try it with the two of them at once.
If you tried something before and didn’t enjoy it, it’s reasonable to say that you won’t enjoy it any more with the next man. Instead, suggest things that you both might enjoy. That’s a reasonable compromise.
Margo says
@karl, I don’t like anal sex. I’ve tried to a point that it didn’t feel comfortable and I asked the person to stop. It isn’t clean either. The part of the anatomy that the man wants to penetrate isn’t designed for penetration. I KNOW that a lot of men want this-don’t you dare deny it men!-but I’m not comfortable with it, so I’m not doing it.
So, would that make me an elitist snob? I’m sure it feels good, but like posted above, there are reasons I refuse to engage in it.
Maybe it’s good for animals, but it isn’t good for humans-except to satisfy a man’s lust…Unnatural lust, at that. Men want it, but only a child doesn’t know that one cannot always have what one wants.
Margo says
Tina Carlson, unless you reside at a country club, these days you’re going to hear that type of language used sometimes.
One of my friends just gave me advice on someone I’m dating. Essentially, he chastised me and the guy for sleeping in the guy’s bed when we both made a stance against sex this early on. My friends rebuke was as follows: “You both said you weren’t going to have sex, then you “motherfuckers” got into his bed!”
I considered the language vulgar. I would have preferred not to hear it, However, he did make his point.
Deanna McNeil says
Great post, thought the advice was practical. Can’t wait to see you on YouTube 🙂
Sherell says
Good lord folks its hyperbole and not to be taken literally. Sheesh!!!!!!
Shouraku says
I actually agree with both Karl @38 and Margo @44.
Really, I see two related but different points being discussed. Sort of the difference between saying “How do you know that you don’t like ice cream if you have never tried it?” and “How do you know that you don’t like having someone throw a rock at your head if you have never tried it?”.
Personally, if my partner asks me to preform a sexual act with him that: I do not have a moral stance against, I know would not damage my body, and does not disgust me, then it falls into the “try the ice cream” category with me. Sure I’ll try it, the worst that can happen is that I discover something that I don’t enjoy, and even that is a valuable learning experience.
However, there are specific acts that fall into the “rock to the head” category. I don’t have first had experience, but my preferences and general life knowledge suggest to me that they are not something that I want to try.
Threesomes might be amazing. They may totally change my life and bring me pleasure that I never knew possible. I have no way of knowing as I have never tried it. However, my other knowledge and experience suggests to me that a threesome could possibly introduce interpersonal elements that could damage my relationship, and I have yet to be in a relationship where I felt that it could be done with minimal risk of side effects (though I fully acknowledge that it would depend on the people involved). I might be completely wrong, but I also don’t want to take the risk to find out. That is my personal boundary.
If someone gave me a bag of harmless sex toys (Karl), sure I would give them a shot. If someone asked me to preform something that I believed to be unclean or physically damaging (Margo) then I would feel justified enough to politely turn them down.
Nicole says
Actually Margo, no one suggested that you do something that wasn’t comfortable. Karl’s comment didn’t suggest that, and we don’t know how if the man on the video meant that a woman should do anything no matter wihat either.
However, what is pretty clear on this blog is that the advice is never meant to be taken to extremes. Being easygoing doesn’t mean that you let someone cheat on you or disrespect you. Being patient doesnt’ meant that you date someone for 5 years without knowing what the relationship is a about. And being open about sex does not mean letting your boyfriend force you into gangbangs or orgies or things that you find uncomfortable.
You mentioned that you tried it, and you didn’t like it, and anyone who loves and cares about you should appreciate the effort. But some people will try that and like it and continue. You aren’t suggesting that your likes and dislikes are universal for everyone.
Clearly, if you have certain boundaries, you shouldn’t cross them and you should find someone who doesn’t need to cross them. But the basic point that you shouldn’t dismiss something or insist that you don’t like it until you try it is completely sound. And I don’t see how you can deny that. Take sex out of the equation. It just sounds very provincial and backwards to say, for example, I hate Indian food, if you’ve never even HAD Indian food. And you would truly have to taste 100’s of different things for that statement to really be accurate.
I think that is the same point here.
And for what it’s worth, I think a lot of people find “regular” sex to be uncomfortable at first, or sex with a new person to be the same. Yet they keep on doing it…
Leslie says
Even given that this is a dating blog for women, I’m getting the sense that there is too much focus here on keeping the guy. All of these rules, like being sexual open and so on… ladies, if you really like the guy, you’ll act that way naturally! You’ll want to be open to him. And if you don’t, then you won’t. Although honestly, a guy that is always asking for three-somes and chains and so on – that’s just not the type of guy I can see myself longterm building a family with. The focus would be on not finding rules to keep him – it would be realizing that he’s the wrong guy and finding one who’s expectation are more in line with my personality and finding a compromise that both parties are okay with.
But if he REALLY likes you, the extra things that make you feel uncomfortable won’t become a deal-breaker. I think that most mature adults realize that there is fantasy and reality, and that some of the fantasies come true but most don’t, and it’s not a deal breaker. I have a fantasy of a guy who bring me fresh flowers every week, but I know that this is completely unrealistic, and don’t make this an expectation in my relationship. I value him as a person overall, not a florist. Likewise, my boyfriend has some anal fantasies, but those are not going to happen. He realizes that I’m very open to him, I respect him and if I’m not into it, there must be good reason. If he breaks up with me because of that one thing, well, I’d wager to say he was never that into me anyway, more into having sex with someone or very immature in his perception of fantasy v. reality.
As for the shaving/waxing expectations – while its important to not look like you’ve lived in the wilderness for the past 6 months, I’ve found that most guys will state their preferences. Some guys said they want it all gone, although not all care.
Christie Hartman says
I’m always nervous when some guy wants to give women dating advice, thinking that being male makes him an automatic expert. Most of the time the advice is stupid and more about what HE wants, rather than what MEN want. But this guy did a decent job. And I did laugh my ass off! 🙂
Helen says
These are 12 good points, but for me, they got somewhat lost behind all the unnecessary swearing. Maybe some people found that funny – I found it an annoyance and was cringing at when he was going to say his next F word (which was always within the next 5 seconds). I personally couldn’t stand to spend much time around someone who couldn’t speak for 1 straight minute without swearing.
About the points themselves, however: they were generally good, and apply equally to men and women. I liked his straightforward first point about how we should get our advice from the target group (in this case, women getting advice from men rather than from single girlfriends). I also liked the point about how it is okay to have spaces of silence; no need to fill them continually with talking.
Margo says
Actually, Nicole, the basic point that I shouldn’t dismiss something or insist that I don’t like it until I’ve tried it is NOT sound. If I have knowledge of what is involved in or what a certain act place or thing entails, then I can make an informed decision based on whether or not I would like it.
With anal sex, although I might like some part of it, I have enough evidence/knowledge to know that I wouldn’t like the act as a whole. That awareness is enough to prevent me from wanting to engage in it.
It works the same way with other unorthodox practices. Say, for instance, if your bf asked you to lick their unclean feet after they had just jumped in a puddle of mud. Would you try that to see if you liked it?? Personally I wouldn’t need to try that; I already know I wouldn’t like it.
starthrower68 says
@ Karl #43,
“Have you actually ever tried the things you mentioned (“three or moresomes, whips, chains, handcuffs, etc, or any other wierd stuff you can come up with”)? If not, how can you characterize them as your likes and dislikes?”
Karl, seriously? You’re really asking me that? I’ve never made a thousand cuts on my body with a razor and jumped into a pool of rubbing alcohol either but I’m pretty sure I know myself well enough to know I will not be into that. I might not be an expert in your likes and dislikes, but I’m pretty sure I know mine. There are somethings I’m not going to do and I can live with the consequences of that.
Margo says
I agree with Starthrower. I know a woman that sexually does everything her husband wants to the point that she may as well be a porn star. He is constantly asking her to do threesomes and whatever desires he has at any given time. The sad thing is she is doing this to try and keep him.
I too want to please my man, and I’m a yes woman with men I love, but there has to be a line. Without it, the woman or man becomes a doormat devoid of dignity.
If your significant other is unselfish and loves you, he will not badger you into doing sexual acts that you find uncomfortable and know yourself enough to know that you don’t even want to try them. There is enough pleasure in regular and oral sex with all the different positions, locations, twists, etc. available that the considerate man should be able to get his needs met.
Nicole says
@Margo,
Again, you and Starthrower going to extremes as a way to refute what is an otherwise reasonable point. Taking the worst case scenario doesn’t refute the statement that you can’t rule out some things without trying them. And it doesn’t suggest that you need to try everything before you rule them out either. I think #48, Shouraku, summed it up nicely.
There are things that you don’t have to try to know that you’ll hate (loved the example of getting rocks thrown at the head). There are things that are in between, that you MIGHT like but that might take getting used to. And there are things that you haven’t tried and are pretty innocuous and trying them won’t cause any harm.
Hey, I’ll try most kinds of food but there are some things that I have no desire to taste (certain animal organs for example). Dog meat is enjoyed in parts of Asia, but I have no desire to try it. And yet I’m still able to admit that in general, it’s better to be open about things. See how simple that is?
But that fact that it sounds gross to me doesn’t take away from the fact that many people enjoy, some people will try it and find that it’s not terrible, some people will try it and like it, and WITHIN REASON, there are things in life that you can’t absolutely dismiss without trying (and let’s leave sex out of it because you and Starthrower keep going to the worst possible things that a man could ask you to do sexually).
I NEVER suggested that this wasn’t true. You and Starthrower keep going with the hyperbole again.
And really, this all started with how we all interpreted the comment of being sexually open AND how we interpreted being groomed. You went to porn and Brazilians, and I heard being a little creative and staying neat and smelling good. Just as we all interpreted those statements in a different way, the way that each man means them is also different. So you might have met the guy who wanted to do something really extreme, but there are guys who just want to go outdoors, or try toys, or something much simpler. And some men really are creeped out by the no hair thing…
Karl R says
Margo asked: (#53)
“if your bf asked you to lick their unclean feet after they had just jumped in a puddle of mud. Would you try that to see if you liked it??”
It’s reasonable to refuse to do something that’s unhealthy, at least until the health risks have been countered/mitigated.
For example, my fiancée and I both prefer to have sex without a condom, but when we started dating, we practiced safe sex for months. When we both got the results of our STD tests, we stopped using condoms. At that point, we had countered/mitigated the risk in another way.
If someone can’t comprehend the difference between being “sexually open” and being “a reckless idiot,” I’m perfectly happy to let Darwinism be their training tool.
starthrower68 said: (#54)
“I’ve never made a thousand cuts on my body with a razor and jumped into a pool of rubbing alcohol either”
You’ve never cut yourself with a razor while shaving? You’ve never treated a cut with rubbing alcohol?
Your example takes two things you’ve already tried and didn’t like, and extrapolates them 1,000 times.
Do you really expect people to take your point seriously if you can’t even express the concept of something you haven’t tried?
And ignoring the health arguement that I made above, if you were considering giving yourself 1,000 cuts with a razor and jumping into a pool of rubbing alcohol, I’d recommend giving yourself one small cut with a safety razor and treating it with rubbing alcohol … just to test it on a small scale first.
starthrower68 said: (#54)
“I might not be an expert in your likes and dislikes, but I’m pretty sure I know mine.”
Have you ever tried pahlenka? If not, do you like it? Have you ever tried saag ghosht? If not, do you like it?
Nicole’s example (#49) of Indian food is appropriate. Over half the food looked disgusting to me (like it had been excreted out one orifice or another). When I sampled everything, I discovered that the most revolting looking food was the best tasting food.
Margo said: (#55)
“there has to be a line.”
There is a reasonable line. And the key word in that is “reason.” I don’t want to engage in a threesome with my exclusive partner, because at that point it’s no longer exclusive.
I don’t want to try erotic asphyxia because it’s incredibly risky.
I don’t want to try anal sex (even if we counter/mitigate the unsanitary issues) because I didn’t like it when I tried it before with another partner.
I don’t want to toss my fiancée’s salad because I don’t like the way shit smells. Since taste is based 85% upon the sense of smell, I can reasonably extrapolate that licking her anus is going to taste terrible. (And it’s incredibly unsanitary.)
If I’m going to try something that’s undignified, it’s reasonable for my partner to try it too.
If I’m going to try bondage with someone, it’s going to have to wait until I trust them enough.
I just listed six boundaries that are perfectly reasonable.
1. It violates a moral/relationship/ethical boundary.
2. Too much risk.
3. Already tried it and didn’t like it.
4. Reasonable extrapolation from something I don’t like.
5. Partner unwilling to reciprocate.
6. Insufficient trust.
And in many of those cases, there’s a work-around if the reason is addressed. If I was in a non-exclusive relationship, I would be willing to try a threesome (under certain circumstances). If she loves anal sex, we can insert a toy back there (and clean it thoroughly afterward). If she wants me to try something undignified, she can try it first. And I’m perfectly willing to try bondage with someone I don’t trust if she’s the one being tied up, or we can wait until trust has been established.
If you have reasons for your boundaries, you can find reasonable compromises that don’t violate them.
Leslie says
Karl,
No one should have to do something that they don’t want to do to ‘keep’ a man, or a woman for that matter. Yes, some people are more open and adventurous than others. Other people are not. This is just a fact of life. There’s no point in trying to convince me or someone else to be more adventurous if we don’t want to be – maybe we’re not the right girl for YOU, but for somebody else, we probably are. I for example, am not particularly attracted to very sexually adventurous men. If you bring out a toy, whip, chain, prop or anything man made other than protection into the bedroom, I will be out of there. So perhaps, you or the guy in this video wouldn’t be attracted to me in that case, but there’s no point in trying to figure out how to keep this type of guy, because I don’t want him or be very sexually attracted to him anyway. And frankly, if a guy didn’t want to be with me because I feel that man-made materials should not be brought into the bedroom, well, he’s probably not the right guy for me anyway nor should I worry about keeping him.
I think the be more open advice is useful for women who are very frigid, afraid to do it in anything more than missionary position and undress in front of their significant other with the lights on. If that doesn’t apply to you, I think you are okay. Sex should never be used to try to keep a man – it doesn’t work.
starthrower68 says
@ Nicole #56,
While I can’t speak for Margo, there are things I could be willing to try, but since it’s nobody’s business what those things are, I do not feel compelled to make a list. Secondly, I used hyperbole because most of us will take it as a given here that not everything is unreasonable or unacceptable to try and what some will be okay with, others will not. Also, anybody can rule out anything they want to whether they’ve tried it or not. Your cost-benefit ratio analysis may vary from theirs.
@ Karl, #57,
Karl, I know you think I’m being difficult and closed-minded but I like the snappy banter and lively debate. You help me keep the skills sharp. Where you and I part company is that one person’s set of criteria isn’t going to be the same as yours. For example, you listed 6 boundaries that you believe are acceptable. Ok, great it works for you. Someone else may have an entirely different set from yours. Doesn’t make them bad or wrong, just different.
Margo says
Karl, I believe I can comprehend the difference between being sexually open and a reckless idiot. Thanks.
There are some men who like to justify their unorthodox sexual urges using the reasoning that being “sexually open” is a positive concept, and generally it is. However it ceases to be positive when a man uses the concept as a tool to satisfy his lust regardless of a woman’s feelings and concerns.
Once again, we will use “anal sex” as an example. The practice is so common that most men will levy accusations of being sexually closed-minded to any woman that doesn’t want to participate in it. It is an unclean practice, you are aware of that as evidenced by your statments of how anal secretions smell and the fact that you would need to clean any toy well that is used in the anus.
By your statement that you would, “mitigate the health risks”, you have declared the practice unclean yourself.
Margo says
Ultimately, Karl, Nicole, and those who agree with them, it is up to the individual regarding whether they want to try something or not. When that decision is made, the partner has no right to disrespect their decisions on what they deem appropriate to do with their own body. Leveling accusations of being close-minded is unloving, inappropriate and just plain selfish. A person has his or her own reasons as to why they might want to try some things and not others and that should not be open to negotiation.
I have tried and happen to like (on occasion) being choked to a certain extent during love-making, but I wouldn’t like to be smothered with a pillow. Whatever it is, I don’t want to try it is not a bad thing for me to say “NO’. In addition, it doesn’t indicate I’m not sexually-open, and it doesn’t mean I don’t want to please the man I’m with. If the man I’m with doesn’t want to be choked, that is his right and I should respect his choice. I would concede that the practice can be risky, just like the ones who enjoy anal sex should concede that it’s a nasty practice.
What a man should NOT be doing is lying and denying that reality just so he can get his rocks off. That’s what angers most women about many men’s attitude on this subject, and rightly so!
As stated previously, it’s generally a positive thing for a men and women to be sexually open, but for a man to leave a woman because she won’t satisfy him sexually by doing something she doesn’t agree with isn’t good. It’s very telling of his feelings toward her as well as his character in general.
Karl R says
Leslie said: (#58)
“There’s no point in trying to convince me or someone else to be more adventurous if we don’t want to be — maybe we’re not the right girl for YOU, but for somebody else, we probably are.”
One man I knew (a girlfriend’s ex) probably considered himself to be “non-adventurous.” His idea of sex was getting naked, missionary position, and mechanically thrusting until he was done. Never any variety. He never even changed up the tempo.
You could say that there’s someone out there who is right for him. I would say, “Good luck finding a woman who is interested in having lousy sex for an entire marriage.”
Why should that man try to introduce variety into his sex life? He’s found something that works well for him every single time?
If the sex has that little variety, you not only need to find a partner who doesn’t mind a lack of variety, you also have to find someone who prefers the exact same few things that you do.
I find it easier to broaden the variety so we each experience our favorite things some of the time.
starthrower68 said: (#59)
“Also, anybody can rule out anything they want to whether they’ve tried it or not. Your cost-benefit ratio analysis may vary from theirs.”
A child can refuse to try a new food without tasting it too. That’s fairly common behavior for children. Why do parents keep trying to get their children to try something before refusing to eat it? In part, it’s because the behavior is childish, and they’re trying to instill more mature patterns of behavior.
As an adult, what’s the benefit to having a partner who childishly rules things out for no reason whatsoever?
You are correct in that, “anybody can rule out anything they want to whether they’ve tried it or not.” And after trying a relationship with a woman who did that regularly, I ruled her out.
Margo said: (#61)
“for a man to leave a woman because she won’t satisfy him sexually by doing something she doesn’t agree with isn’t good. It’s very telling of his feelings toward her as well as his character in general”
That particular woman would lie on her back, unmoving, with her legs spread. She wouldn’t agree to doing anything beyond that.
She repeatedly demonstrated that she had no interest in expending any effort to ensure I was sexually satisfied. I thought that was rather telling of her character in general, and it ended up changing my feelings towards her.
Margo said: (#61)
“the partner has no right to disrespect their decisions on what they deem appropriate to do with their own body. Leveling accusations of being close-minded is unloving, inappropriate and just plain selfish. A person has his or her own reasons as to why they might want to try some things and not others and that should not be open to negotiation.”
If things in the relationship aren’t open to discussion/negotiation (and this goes well beyond just sex), it’s a dealbreaker.
Furthermore, if I believe a person is being close-minded about sex, I won’t act disrespectfully toward them or accuse them of being close minded.
I’ll leave.
And I have every right to make that decision.
If the man leaves, you didn’t manage to keep him. And that’s why it’s one of the twelve rules.
starthrower68 said: (#59)
“you listed 6 boundaries that you believe are acceptable.”
I did not say “acceptable.” I used the word “reasonable.” I provided a logical reason for each of those boundaries.
starthrower68 said: (#59)
“one person’s set of criteria isn’t going to be the same as yours.”
That’s perfectly fine … provided they have logical reasons for their boundaries.
Even though I listed one reason for not being interested in threesomes, I have several reasons. It would be possible to work around all of those reasons simultaneously, but I haven’t encountered that set of circumstances yet (nor am I seeking to).
Everything I’ve read indicates that a good sexual relationship is an important element to a good long-term relationship. In addition, everything indicates that sex has a tendency to get into a rut after a while unless the couple makes an effort to spice things up periodically. Even plain old vanilla tastes better if you don’t have it every single time.
The fewer things you rule out, the more options you have for adding variety.
If someone starts ruling things out just because they’re new or different, it becomes nearly impossible to add variety.
Leslie said: (#58)
“If you bring out a toy, whip, chain, prop or anything man made other than protection into the bedroom, I will be out of there.”
Okay, so dildos are unacceptable, but cucumbers are okay?
If the bed’s not man-made, what’s it made of?
Whips and chains are still considered appropriate if you’re having sex in the kitchen?
I realize that wasn’t your intent, but that one “rule” is just a non-stop source of amusement.
Trenia says
Overall, I thought the video was great and pretty funny but I strongly disagree with rule #1 about not listening to your girlfriends. I hear so many men say this, but who are men taking relationship and dating advice from? Other men! Men aren’t calling up their single women friends asking for dating advice or how to keep a woman in their life, they’re talking and taking advice from other men, so of course women are doing the same thing. Also, it is often your single girlfriends who can pick up on things about your man, like if he has a proclivity toward violence, etc…People act like the average man has done all of this research and has some special knowledge about the female psyche and it’s just not true. Most men have not talked to women in depth about dating and relationships the way Evan has, so they are going out there based on advice from their single male friends, which isn’t always healthy or accurate.
While I agree about being sexually open, the increasing violence and body/image manipulation in pornography has affected many men and what they expect from women sexually and how they think our bodies should look. I don’t believe that a fully grown woman should look like a pre-pubescent girl by shaving her pubic hair, I would encourage you to see the Vagina Monologues, there’s a great one about this.
Nicole says
@Starthrower…did you read what I wrote. I agreed with you. I agreed with the point that there are things that you don’t have to try to be reasonably sure that they aren’t acceptable to you.
I also said to take sex out of it because I felt it was clouding the discussion about being open (yes, veering from the original list).
What about that wasn’t clear? I think that you assumed that I was telling you that you were wrong and that you should let your partner perform abhorrent sex acts and all I did was say that to take the most ridiculous example as a reason not to be open was missing the point.
I think Karl more or less agreed with you too but for whatever reason, you and Margo are both missing that.
Forget about sex…it’s good to be open in general b/c there are a lot of things out there that you miss otherwise. And it’s good to have enough sense to know when something is worth a try or is totally dangerous, but you are looking at two ends of the spectrum to suggest that anyone is telling you to violate your morals or risk your safety.
Margo says
@Carl #62. Manage to keep a man?? Shaking my head…Karl, it’s not a woman’s job to “manage” to keep a man. That kind of thinking is not part of a healthy relationship. In a mutually exclusive, healthy relationship both partners are doing their part to love each other, respect each other, please each other to make it work.
To paraphrase your words: If a woman doesn’t want to do something you lust after sexually, she gave you her decision, and maybe even her reasons, but she doesn’t want to negotiate her stance, then you’re out the door?? Nice. Good luck with that.
This isn’t love, Karl. That’s selfishness.
"Doris" says
@Maeve:
I liked your link. 🙂
@Karl R:
Don’t like a little furriness when going down? (Mine is soft, clean and trimmed, so I don’t see the problem.) Now you know what it is like for us dealing with a man’s entire body! Are you willing to wax your entire body for us? (Rhetorical question)
Also, someone who refuses to do something without logical reasons is not necessarily close-minded at all. They might very well be using their intuition, which is far better at sensing and predicting dangerous situations than the conscious (logical) mind can. In other words, I don’t need a logical reason to say no to having something put into my anus. I already know intuitively that it’s not going to be a pretty picture. That doesn’t make me narrow minded, either.
Karl R says
Margo said: (#65)
“To paraphrase your words: […]”
That’s a rather narrowly-construed view of what I said. I’ll rephrase it so you grasp the full implications.
If either person in a relationship takes the stance that they made a decision, there’s no negotiation, possibly not even any discussion, they have restricted their partner to two choices (1) agree, (2) leave. This is true regardless of the subject of the decision (sex, money, what color to paint the bathroom).
When one person decides that some of their decisions are non-negotiable, the relationship becomes a time bomb. Sooner or later their partner won’t agree with one of those decisions.
It’s necessary for the partner to end that kind of relationship. It’s easier if he/she isn’t in love, but it’s necessary in any case.
I only have a few non-negotiables (dealbreakers). Early in the relationship, I verified that my fiancée agreed with me on those issues. Everything else that comes up is open to discussion, negotiation and compromise.
Margo said: (#65)
“she gave you her decision, and maybe even her reasons, but she doesn’t want to negotiate her stance”
You can take that attitude with your child, your employee or your pet … not your partner.
Margo said: (#65)
“it’s not a woman’s job to ‘manage’ to keep a man. That kind of thinking is not part of a healthy relationship. In a mutually exclusive, healthy relationship both partners are doing their part to love each other, respect each other, please each other to make it work.”
You just contradicted yourself. “Both partners are doing their part,” but somehow the woman is excluded from that job?
If you don’t manage to keep the man happy, he’ll leave. If he doesn’t manage to keep you happy, you should leave. If you believe that you should stay in an unhappy relationship out of “love” for your partner, seek professional counseling.
Doris said: (#66)
“someone who refuses to do something without logical reasons is not necessarily close-minded at all. They might very well be using their intuition, which is far better at sensing and predicting dangerous situations than the conscious (logical) mind can.”
In that case, tell your partner that it seems risky to you, you want time to think about it, and you’ll discuss it later.
Before you discuss it, take the time to educate your conscious mind to the point where you can give a logical reason to back up your decision.
Intuition is a great tool when you need to make an uninformed decision quickly. It’s a poor substitute for taking the time to make an informed decision.
And if a person refuses to educate themselves on a matter that’s personally important to them … is it possible to get more close-minded than that?
Trenia said: (#63)
“who are men taking relationship and dating advice from? Other men!”
You really don’t understand men. Men rarely ask for advice. When we do, we ask someone we perceive as having expertise in that area. I’m not going to ask my single male friends for relationship advice. What the hell do they know? I’m going to get advice from a friend who has the kind of relationship that I want.
Trenia said: (#63)
“Men aren’t calling up their single women friends asking for dating advice or how to keep a woman in their life,”
Of course not. They’re single. They haven’t demostrated that they know any more than I do.
As a starting point, get advice from someone who had a mixed track record of sucesses and failures but ultimately succeeded in a big way. It’s rather likely that they learned something along the way.
Fawn says
Karl, you are awesome!
Apple Jacks says
Karl said: (#67)
Intuition is a great tool when you need to make an uninformed decision quickly. It’s a poor substitute for taking the time to make an informed decision.
This, in a nutshell, is a lesson that I learned the hard way. I’m glad I used to only rely on intution and nothing else. Thank the above for the balance I finally gained.
Trenia says
@Karl, Again, therein lies the problem, you telling me what I don’t understand, and this is the stance that many men take when talking about relationships. What I do understand is that men talk to other men, that’s the point, the same way women talk to other women.
Karl R says
Trenia said: (#70)
“What I do understand is that men talk to other men, that’s the point, the same way women talk to other women.”
That’s incorrect. Men talk to men much differently than women talk to women.
Read one of the Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus books. They cover the difference between how men and women communicate at great length.
Furthermore, his main point was that you shouldn’t be listening to “your single-ass lonely girlfriends” advice about relationships. That’s like asking an unemployed person for advice about how to get a job. If they knew the answer to the question, how long would they remain unemployed?
Still Looking says
@ Trenia 70
Trenia – As a man who spends a lot of time talking with both women and men, both socially and in the workplace, I can tell you that men differ considerably from women when it comes to discussing relationships.
I have seen men give advice on a specific issue, for example a man might complain about his wife spending too much money and another man might offer some practical solutions — create a budget, talk with her, have separate checking accounts, etc. These conversations are usually very private and unemotional — just pragmatic advice.
What I haven’t seen since I was considerably younger was a guy stating he was interested in a girl and getting feedback from a number of guys. Even then it was usually very general and positive – “go for it”, “yeah, she’s hot”, and “she seems really cool.”
What I have experienced when being around women is totally different. A woman will say, for example, “I went out with John last weekend and he showed up 15 minutes late.” The other women seem to take this as an open invitation to eviscerate poor John based on their own observations, gossip, and conjecture.
I’m not saying every woman and every man acts as I just described, just a generalized observation. Men do not talk to men the way women talk to women. Women tend to reinforce another woman’s expression of dismay, frustration, anger, and joy. Men, on the other hand, tend to be rather emotionless and keep their opinions to themselves unless asked directly.
Liz says
Karl is making a lot more sense than his (conversational) opponents.
And yeah, talking to your single girlfriends is not that helpful. I always tell friends to have at least one female friend in an LTR to talk to. Our advice tends to be different. I know my advice improved a lot once I found what I had been searching for.
Margo says
Karl says: “You just contradicted yourself, “Both partners are doing their part”, but somehow the woman is excluded from that job. ”
No, I didn’t contradict myself. For example, the man asks for something sexual. The woman considers it-that’s what the brain automatically does when it is presented with an idea or request-then decides she doesn’t want to try it. Considering what you asked IS doing her part. She shouldn’t have to do things that make her comfortable in order to keep YOU happy. Again, this is pure selfish thinking.
Karl says: “If you don’t manage to keep the man happy, he’ll leave. If he doesn’t manage to keep you happy, you should leave. If you believe you should stay in an unhappy relationship out of “love” for your partner, seek professional counseling.”
Healthy relationships don’t entail getting what you want all the time, that includes “compromising” your way into it. Again, a rather childless view of how relationships should work.
Wanting to get your way at the expense of the comfort and happiness of your loved one bespeaks of a controlling, selfish, childish, end entitled mindset.
Karl says: “When one person decides that some of their decisions are non-negotiable, the relationship becomes a time bomb. Sooner or later their partner won’t agree with one of their decisons.
Ok, and if their partner doesn’t agree with one of their decisions, instead of being a child and threatening to leave, that partner can grow up, suck it up, and realize that he CANNOT have everything he wants. That’s true in all aspects of life, why shouldn’t it be true in relationships? Sorry, but it IS true in relationships, healthy or otherwise.
Karl says: “I only have a few non-negotiables (dealbreakers). Early in the relationship, I verified that my fiance agreed with me on those issues.”
No arguement here.
Karl says: “Everything e;se is open to discussion, negotiation and compromise.”
This is where I’m going to argue. Yes, when you have asked your partner to do something she doesn’t want to do with her OWN body, she can discuss her reasons with you, with the caveat that you don’t harrass and badger her about it.
However, negotiating on it, as well as compromising on it, entails that the person will have to participate or be in involved in the act on some level. Therefore, you are disprespecting her boundaries and trying to force something on her that she doesn’t want to do. I hate to sound like a parrot…but again, controlling, childish, selfish, entitled…
If a man behaved this way with me, I would tell him “goodbye”.
starthrower68 says
You’re right Karl. Everything IS open to discussion. That doesn’t mean that a woman will comply. If you leave her because she won’t you are doing her a favor. She may be hurt by rejection, but she’ll get over it. I’m happy to have these discussions with a guy. If it crosses my boundaries, not only is he free to go, but I will encourage him to do so. I’m sure I will be called a bitter elitist snob and that doesn’t bother me a bit.
Margo says
Exactly, Starthrower! 🙂 What is far sadder than Karl’s comments on this subject are the comments of women on here who have allowed themselves to be threatened into doing whatever a man wants to keep him from leaving. There is a word for that: Doormat.
Snazzy says
Thanks Evan, the more men we hear it from, the more we’ll believe it’s true.
Karl, Margo and Starthrower- time out please!!
Helen says
I usually am 99% with Karl, but in this case I agree with Margo and starthrower68. They have a much more realistic view of how to approach a partner in a LTR, and when to know to back off and let the other person have their space and comfort. I say this having been with the same fellow 13 years, married 11.
Karl R says
Margo said: (#74)
“She shouldn’t have to do things that make her [un]comfortable in order to keep YOU happy. Again, this is pure selfish thinking.”
As I’ve gotten older, it has become physically uncomfortable for me to perform oral sex on a woman. The discomfort varies, and it can be mitigated in part by elevating the woman’s hips, but depending on the day and the position, it’s going to vary from mild discomfort to pain which gradually increases throughout the duration of the act.
If I perform oral sex on my fiancée, it triples or quadruples the chances that she has one or more orgasms. Therefore, I go down about 90% of the time (without being asked) in order to ensure that the sex is great for her.
To you, it’s “purely selfish thinking” that two adults might discuss and compromise on trying an act that one of them finds physically or psychologically uncomfortable.
To me, the idea that someone would voluntarily choose to do something uncomfortable in order to make his/her partner happy seems completely routine.
I’m not going to claim that my motives are self-sacrificing. The direct benefit to my fiancée greatly outweighs the discomfort/pain I experience. Furthermore, the indirect benefits that I receive from making her happy greatly outweigh the discomfort/pain as well.
To me, it seems incredibly shortsighted to avoid trying uncomfortable things, purely from a cost/benefit perspective.
Margo said: (#74)
“However, negotiating on it, as well as compromising on it, entails that the person will have to participate or be in involved in the act on some level. Therefore, you are disprespecting her boundaries and trying to force something on her that she doesn’t want to do.”
In my experience, two mature adults can discuss, negotiate and compromise without being disrespectful or forcing the other person to do something. For some reason, you see these activities as being near-synonymous with harassing and badgering.
As an example, let’s assume that Gem (#40) wasn’t comfortable with the idea of having sex on the seadoo in the middle of the lake. She and her boyfriend can discuss the issue. How exciting is this scenario to him? Is it something that he’s vaguely curious about trying, but doesn’t expect to enjoy more than vanilla sex, or is it his most exciting fantasy? How uncomfortable does this scenario make her? Does it just feel slightly awkward, or is it likely to trigger a phobia, motion sickness, or some other serious reaction?
After that, they can begin negotiating the details. If Gem has a phobia about deep water, would she be okay if the seadoo was in water that was 4′ deep? If she’s worried about someone taking a video and posting it on YouTube, would it be sufficient to have a blanket covering them, thus making any video too boring to watch?
Similarly, what aspect of that scenario really rocks his world? Is is the motion of the boat under them? Is it the possibility of being seen? Is it possible to meet the important aspects of the fantasy in a very different scenario?
Maybe the compromise ends up being that they end up renting a boat that has an enclosed cabin. It entails some additional expense and possibly can’t be done the next time they go to the lake, but it’s something that can be accomplished which works for both of them.
I intend to spend the next several decades with my fiancée. There’s no benefit to forcing her to do anything that she is opposed to. Similarly, there’s no benefit to saying “Never” to something she really wants to do. And since she intends to spend the next several decades with me, she feels the same way.
You seem to be viewing this as being entirely about power and control. And that attitude is the antithesis of negotiation and compromise, either inside or outside of the bedroom.
Gem says
Actually Karl, there was some negotiation. My apprehention had to do with the possibility of the coastguard or a child seeing us. In order for me to agree it was on the condition that we chose an area to greatly reduce the chances of being seen.
As far as me doing something physically uncomfortable, I also understand your point…there are positions that aren’t necessarily comfortable at all for me but if they are a favorite of my partner, I’ll comply because his pleasure is part of the turn-on for me. Of course my enthusiasm to be generous to any lover is because he is equally as giving and generous and understanding to me.
Now….a person CAN be genuinely “open” sexually and still have a few hard limits and their reasons may be logical to them, but the partner who is really itchin’ to do this-or-that may not find those reasons logical or reasonable. Sometimes turn-ons/offs and the reasons behind them are subjective and VERY illogical.
I think what starthrower and Margo are saying, is that at a certain point, their feelings should just be respected regardless if their partner agrees with their logic/reasoning. Expecially if they are open, and giving sexually in a thousand other ways.
Example: On the show: Sex and the City, Carrie was dating a politician who wanted her to urinate on him. She could not bring herself to go there but “negotiated” by suggesting, “I could dribble warm water on you, that might feel good.” Well, he dumped her.
I personally, couldn’t do it either. My reasons are psychological: it feels like I’d be placing him in a submissive position and it feels like I’d be lowering or humiliating him by such an action and that is not hot to me. It’s sooooo NOT HOT, that I won’t bend because I think it would lower my attraction overall and damage the relationship. For me, sex and bodily waste don’t go together.
And guess what? I have no experiential data to back up my position so how logical is it?
To ME, that’s reasonable, but to HIM, that might not be reasonable at all because his feelings are telling him the opposite. And what if I couldn’t articulate my reasons but knew it turned me off and I just thought, “ick.”
If we were wonderful in every other way, I’d sure hope he’d respect my limit and move on, but if it were so important to him that he had to leave me for a “pee-er”, LOL, then I don’t think I’d feel like I didn’t “manage” to keep him. Some times people are wired differently and are not a match. I’m all for being open and negotiating and I believe the other gals are to, they are simply saying limits should be respected regardless if they can get a jury of their peers to agree that the reasons are logical beyond a reasonable doubt.
"Doris" says
I said (#66):
“someone who refuses to do something without logical reasons is not necessarily close-minded at all. They might very well be using their intuition, which is far better at sensing and predicting dangerous situations than the conscious (logical) mind can.”
And then Karl responded (#70):
” In that case, tell your partner that it seems risky to you, you want time to think about it, and you’ll discuss it later.
Before you discuss it, take the time to educate your conscious mind to the point where you can give a logical reason to back up your decision.
Intuition is a great tool when you need to make an uninformed decision quickly. It’s a poor substitute for taking the time to make aninformed decision.
And if a person refuses to educate themselves on a matter that’s personally important to them … is it possible to get more close-minded than that?”
Karl has used the analogy of trying foods as an analogy for trying varied sexual practices. This is not a valid analogy. Generally speaking, trying new foods (provided basic sanitary practices have been used in preparation) has very little chance of physically or psychologically harming an individual; alternative sexual practices (or any physically robust or intimate experiences) carry a much great risk for harm. If I said that as a 120-lb. woman I do not like playing full contact football, there would likely be few people who would question my preference, even if I hadn’t tried it. I don’t need to try everything to know that something will not be pleasant for me.
A person doesn’t have to justify their preferences. Though we can change them over time, our preferences contribute to our unique self. For example, I like the colors green and pink. I cannot give a logical reason why l do. I just know that I prefer these colors. Friends of mine who love me accept me for my unique preferences such as these.
There are many preferences that we all possess. While I agree that it is good to be open-minded, it is also important to own one’s own preferences. I fear there is a lot of mental “bullying” going on with men using arguments such as Karl’s (above) and preying upon women’s general tendency to want to please men in general and their individual man specifically. There is such a thing as overdoing it in relationships; it’s known as co-dependence.
I’ve heard this subject of “women need to please their men” come up a lot in the media. I think it is rather funny because, ultimately, the only person who is responsible for one’s sexual fulfillment is oneself. The mind is a powerful sex organ and people throughout the ages have managed to find sexual outlets, with most of them acceptable within their culture’s mores. I understand that people can bored with the same-old, same-old, but, really, if you have to run the gamut of all the aberrant sexual practices within the first year of your relationship, what does that leave you for the rest of your relationship? It seems to me that a man who gets bored easily is a man that will be bored easily throughout the duration of a relationship… and that doesn’t bode well for a long-term, stable match.
Margo says
Bravo, Doris! 🙂 “Mental bullying” is definitely the word for the type of mindset you describe. When presented with a woman’s aversion to a certain sexual technique or position, and subsequent refusal to try it, from what he posted it isn’t enough that she discuss it with him. She has to negotiate and compromise on it, or he considers leaving her. That is the kind of relationship that I want no part of.
This type of mindset is selfish and unreasonable. In addition, as you posted, Doris, it is also a significant risk to establishing a healthy, long-term, loving relationship.
Karl R says
Gem said: (#80)
“Example: On the show: Sex and the City, Carrie was dating a politician who wanted her to urinate on him.”
By now you’re getting all the way into sexual fetishes. Based on what I’ve gathered talking to friends who have sexual fetishes, they’re not inclined quit engaging in them for the rest of their lives. In their view, it’s not far from asking one of us to voluntarily enter a sexless marriage.
I doubt my friends are representative of all people with fetishes, but I suspect there are at least a significant portion who feel the same way. If you are in a relationship with a politician who wants you to pee on him, you have three choices: (1) fulfill his fetish, (2) allow him to fulfill his fetish outside the relationship, (3) end the relationship. If I was in that situation, I’d pick 1 or 3, depending on the particular fetish.
Leaving is always a valid choice. Making someone change to fit your preferences is not. This thread is titled “12 Rules to Keep a Man.” If you decide he’s not worth keeping, or you create a situation where he decides to leave, then we’ve gotten outside of the topic of the video.
Doris said: (#81)
“I fear there is a lot of mental ‘bullying’ going on with men using arguments such as Karl’s (above)”
Leaving is bullying? Having been bullied repeatedly while growing up, I would have been delighted if the bullies had chosen to leave.
If one partner strongly prefers to do things that the other partner is completely averse to, I’d call it sexual incompatability and break things off.
I wouldn’t call it bullying.
Margo said: (#82)
“When presented with a woman’s aversion to a certain sexual technique or position, and subsequent refusal to try it, from what he posted it isn’t enough that she discuss it with him. She has to negotiate and compromise on it, or he considers leaving her.”
Compromise can take a lot of forms. The compromise could be her suggesting a different technique or position which I agree to.
I’m not interested in a relationship where my attempts to add variety to the sex involve me making one suggestion after another while the woman vetoes them. It doesn’t feel like a partnership to me. If you don’t like the man’s suggestion, make a different suggestion. That’s negotiation. Is it really that horrible for you to come up with an idea?
If you’re clever, you can win the negotiation every time. When he makes a suggestion that you don’t like, make a suggestion that he likes better than his original suggestion. Both of you will feel like you won.
Doris asked: (#81)
“really, if you have to run the gamut of all the aberrant sexual practices within the first year of your relationship, what does that leave you for the rest of your relationship?”
Is this really a common problem for you in your relationships?
99% of the time, you’ll have a partner who is alot closer to mainstream … even when he/she is being experimental. The only exception I personally know is a plain vanilla IT geek who is dating a fetish queen. And he knew what he was getting into before the first date.
I find it likely that my fiancée and I will end up debating which pose to try out of the kama sutra at some point in the future. I don’t think either of us will end up suggesting that we involve farm animals “just for the sake of variety.”
Helen says
Karl R #79, you set up a false dichotomy when you write: “You seem to be viewing this as being entirely about power and control. And that attitude is the antithesis of negotiation and compromise, either inside or outside of the bedroom.”
Negotiation IS about power and control. We negotiate for resources and goods, which are the means by which we have any measure of power and control in human society.
If someone says “No” to someone or something, and the other person keeps pushing them to try to change their mind, that is HARASSMENT. Doesn’t matter if it occurs in the bedroom, barroom, or boardroom. People don’t need to justify their answer “No.” My hubby has certain things he doesn’t like that I can’t always understand – but I accept it, and don’t try to keep pushing him. He respects me the same way. If either of us felt the need to “negotiate” to get the other person to cater to our every pleasure despite the other person’s discomfort, and couldn’t respect the answer “no,” you can bet we wouldn’t still be married.
If a woman keeps saying no to a man about something that makes her uncomfortable, and he chooses to make that a dealbreaker, then all the better – for both of them.
Doris and Margo: Amen, sisters.
Annie says
I tend to agree with Karl on this one, but I’m not sure I would use the words compromise?
In many way’s, discussing the reason why you may not like something, can often help you to find another way to achieve the same result. So you aren’t so much as compromising as gaining a deeper understanding of each other and how to please each other.
I do agree with the ladies though, that one does need to ultimately accept No for an answer on many things. IE if I date a guy who hates chick flicks, then I accep the “no” he won’t go, it’s really not a big deal.
I guess at the end of the day, the more Dealbreakers you have(where you must say No ), the more difficulty you will have if finding a partner.
Gem says
“Negotiation IS about power and control. We negotiate for resources and goods, which are the means by which we have any measure of power and control in human society.”
Negotiation CAN come from a place of power and control in a relationship or in dealing with business, but it can also come from a place of love and respect where both partners want the best for each other and want to find a happy medium which will be mutually satisfying.
The latter is what I want from partner and I want to give. I think that’s the point Karl is making.
“If someone says “No” to someone, and the other person keeps pushing them to try to change their mind, that is HARASSMENT.”
If my partner and I could not find a happy medium on something, after I openly tried to negotiate, sexual or otherwise, and he kept badgering me to wear me down, Yes, that would be Harassment. And it would be disrespectful and would show that he didn’t have my best interests at heart.
No one is suggesting a woman do that. The point is to be open enough to have the discussion, maybe try something new, and if possible compromise and negotiate a solution where both partner’s needs are met. If that model doesn’t result in a solution, respecting the limitations of each other is in order.
But Karl is right, if someone KNOWS they will not be happy unless they have “X” in their life, and there is no way to find a compromise, then that person may leave. It could be you, it could be him, and that’s life.
Loving each other is about trying to prevent that, and find solutions when possible.
Margo says
“But Karl is right, if someone KNOWS they will not be happy unless they have “X” in their life, and there is no way to find a compromise, then that person may leave. It could be you, it could be him, and that’s life.”
Gem, information on what both people need should be revealed to each other before a relationship is entered into. That way, both people can be confident they can have their sexual needs met and no one has to end the relationship over sexual preferences.
As long as both people love each other and are trying to please each other sexually, both parties should be able to get over when the other one vetos a sexual request.
Jadafisk says
“By now you’re getting all the way into sexual fetishes. Based on what I’ve gathered talking to friends who have sexual fetishes, they’re not inclined quit engaging in them for the rest of their lives. In their view, it’s not far from asking one of us to voluntarily enter a sexless marriage.”
That being said, the fetishist has to consider their realistic options as well. There are some sexual desires that are unlikely to be satisfied for free by anyone the person is remotely attracted to and able to get along with, who resides within a reasonable location radius, who is as equally motivated to satisfy them and is about equally as incompatible with others who refuse to engage in the fetish. There are people who will spend the rest of their lives alone because if they have a partner, that partner *must* diaper them while they mewl and shake a rattle during at least one out of every four sexual encounters. If the significant other won’t do it… someone else may not either, depending on what it is.
starthrower68 says
I’m sure I will catch flack on this, but all of the libertinism out there has cheapened and depersonalized sex. Sex is a good and wonderful thing in its place but its not really an elevation of the human spirit in this day and age. My viewpoint is not popular, I know. It’s a good thing I don’t care about being popular. :o)
SS says
No flack from me Starthrower68. I understand what you’re saying completely.
Guess I’m not popular either!
Margo says
I’m with SS and Starthrower on this one. Sanctity and love in marriage should always come first.
Annie says
@89
I tend to agree with you Star on that. It seems to have lost it’s connectivity component and is almost a false form of intimacy with the way some people approach it.
TraciT says
I LOVED this and as a female was not offended AT ALL! The guy was sooo spot on and hilarious. I really enjoyed hearing his point of view. I haven’t read any of the other comments, but I think that it should be said that just almost all of the guy’s points can also apply to men, not just women. As a woman (yes, single…haha), when I was hearing the rundown, I have to say that I would want a guy to take heed to a lot of those things too. Shoot some of those points can apply to platonic relationships as well! The only question I had/have is that if you’re a female that already does at least most of those things in her relationship(s) and it still doesn’t work out, what then? Is the answer really as simple as “he wasn’t the right guy”? If that stuff is really all that it takes, then wouldn’t the relationship just keep going? I have a hard time understanding how decent women still get dumped by decent guys, haha. Maybe there isn’t a simple answer, haha.
Grace says
I think he is point on for all of his rules. He’s funny but correct. Evan covers many of these same points.
Missy says
Love It !!!
judy says
Loved the video.
Yes, I no longer hang out much with single women because their advice doesn’t help much.
But certainly, I enjoy the company of my male (and female) colleagues who are in
relationships. We have teased each other to death (tease = playful talk, not necessarily sexual) and often, some of their feedback is extremely useful.
Listening to the men is a great idea.
I think the video was spot on. Would have preferred less swearing but well.
Fagan O'Reilly says
I think he’s spot on. Plus he’s funny.