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Money matters. If one partner is chronically unemployed or in debt, relations can get strained.
Intelligence matters. If your partner can’t understand what you’re talking about or lacks the maturity to try, he’s a waste of time.
Weight matters. If someone is morbidly obese, he’s probably not making it to age 70.
(By the way, ladies, this does NOT mean he has to be taller, smarter or fitter than you. He just can’t be poor, stupid and fat. Got it?)
Nothing is more irrelevant to marital happiness than height.
But one thing that I’ve never really gotten – after 10 years as a dating coach – was women’s obsession with height. And it’s not a myth. It’s real. An article on Jezebel discusses a report from the Atlantic that illustrates that the average height differential between 4600 married American couples was six inches and that the wife was taller in 3.8% of couples. However, “when the author randomized the information as well to see what would come up by chance, he found something surprising: left to chance, the wives were taller in 7.8 percent of couples– twice as many as before. Meaning, people are choosing to maintain this six inches of difference by going out of their way to pair up according to this distinction.”
This is a rigid and arbitrary preference – most noteworthy, to me, in short and tall women.
With short women, EVERYBODY’s taller. So, if you’re 5’1″, what difference does it make if he’s 5’7″ or 6’1″? Yet some short women discriminate against average sized (5’7-5’11”) men.
On the other hand, with tall women, since only 15% of men are over 6 feet tall, it would stand to reason that a 5’11” woman would be well served to open up to shorter men, instead of insisting that he has to be 6’3′, because that’s how tall she is in heels. There simply aren’t enough 6’3″ men to go around, and if you restrict yourself to them, you’re killing your chances of finding love – for pretty much no reason.
It would be like a male millionaire holding out for a female millionaire who makes more than he does. Is it possible? Yes. Likely? No. Necessary? Definitely not.
The author of the Jezebel piece is 5’11” and had a very healthy and refreshing take on height:
I never felt I was making some kind of concession by dating men shorter than me – I just dated people I was attracted to. But since most men are shorter than I am, had I eliminated them on the basis of shortness, I’d have been sitting out all those dances I never actually went to. In order to find a guy six inches taller, I’d have to find a guy who was 6’5.
She ended up marrying a guy a few inches shorter than her. Good for her.
And if this bugs you and you think you should be holding out for a tall guy, that’s your business. Just keep in mind that your current height criteria cuts your potential mates drastically – and that’s before we talk about age, ethnicity, education, income, personality, religion, emotional intelligence, values, kindness, consistency, attraction to you and desire to be married. He’s gotta have all of those things, plus be in the 15% of men who are six feet tall? Good luck with that.
Please read the article here and share your thoughts below.
Goldie says
I totally agree! I’m 5’9″. During my last round of dating, I took Evan’s advice and set the height cutoff at 5’8″ instead of 6’0″ like I’d previously used to. It increased my dating pool dramatically, so I no longer felt like I had to go on dates with borderline douchebags just because they’re tall enough. Let me tell you, there are a lot of really amazing men on this side of six feet. I will however add that, if you say you’re looking for 5’8″, you will get responses from guys who say they’re 5’7″, and are actually 5’6″. But, as long as they’re cool with the height difference, and have good partner qualities, so what? As long as the man isn’t intimidated by my 6’2″ and 6’3″ children, I’m fine with the arrangement.
William says
That is true I would love to date someone 6 foot two or six foot three and I am only 5 foot seven.
Randall "texrat" Arnold says
You are awesome. Clone yourself please. 😉
Vanessa says
Great article – but I think you and the data you referenced are eliminating a very big portion of the equation – men who won’t date taller women.
As much as women discriminate because of height, men do the same thing, my own man (and several male friends) included. I’ve heard many men state that a woman taller than them would be a turn off so in the instances above where the woman are only taller in a small percentage, that could be as a result of the woman’s choice, the man’s choice, or both.
All of that being said, I agree the height discrimination is a petty one. One I used to hold to. At 5’4, I’m shorter than most, but preferred a guy at least 3 inches taller than I. Had I stuck to that criteria when I met my boyfriend, I would’ve walked away from the greatest thing to happen to me. Looking back, I’m so glad I didn’t stick to some petty criteria that could’ve cost me some of the most amazing moments of my life thus far.
Mike says
I think most men are willing to date taller women, however, most men are intimidated to ask out a taller woman because it’s widely understood or thought that they only want a taller man. I’m currently on a dating website and I find that the height and income criteria that almost every woman has keeps me from contacting them. I am 51, 5’8 3/4″, retired with a guaranteed annual take home income of 73k for the rest of my life, I’m fit, have a bachelors and I’m debt free. Most are looking for somebody who is at least 5’11” and makes at least 100k. What I find funny is that they claim to be make only 30k-50k. When I read criteria such as that I don’t bother reaching out because I’m not what they’re looking for.
Jae says
That wouldn’t bother me unless it bothered him. I am 5’9″ and have been told by dates,”Wow, you’re taller than I thought you’d be.” To a woman, this is a definate rejection comment. I’m slender, so tall looks tall, but it’s mostly legs, so…anyway, you sound like a good catch. Consider the other a “golddigger/snob filter.
Randall "texrat" Arnold says
Exactly. On dating sites, many women (even very short ones) demand upfront that their dates be tall (typically 5’10” or more). Very discouraging to us short guys, and leads me at least to assume I stand no chance with someone taller than I am (I’m 5’7″).
peer Eriksen says
sure you are so right in this, every men want girls tall or taller than them self, it boost your confidence , and girls tall are so dam sexy too
Not Steve says
Don’t you ask yourself if they’re even worth your time to begin with?
Luke says
I’ve never met a guy who refused to date a girl because she was “too tall”, there are a lot of people out there so I assume there must be some who feel this way but it still sounds very sill to hear.
Middle ages says
I only date women under 5’7″ tall.
Reason, my hang up, not theirs.
I figure there are plenty of women shorter than myself.
Leigh Miller says
Well since most women are under 5’7″ you should have no problem there. As a woman who is 5’7″ myself I have always for some reason had a hard time finding a guy who was taller than me. I have always had to choose guys who were slightly shorter. While I am happy in my relationship, it would still be nice if he was taller than me, and I’m not saying 6 ” taller or anything, just even if he was within 1 inch taller that would be awsome but no such luck… it’s okay. One of these days he will probably end up intimidated by our growing girls who have been in between the 75th and the 90th percentile for height since birth.
Rachel says
Luke you’d be surprised! I’m a tall girl at 5’9 and I have been rejected by guys on Tinder for being taller than they are. Even if they comment positively on my appearance, we get along well or they admit to being attracted to me, they will still turn me down because for them the height difference is a major issue (I’m not too fussed about it). Sigh.
Germain Lanteigne says
I doubt that a woman could really be disappointed to be turned down by a short man, as women don’t normally want them any how. I am 43 yo man of 5’6” and never been with a women ever (so virgin).
iris says
I’m 5’11 and most of the men who pursue me are shorter than me. The current guy chasing me is 5’5. I don’t care either. I’m color blind, height blind ect.. What matters to me 100% is personality.
Henriette says
Exactly, Iris. I don’t think any happily married 80 yr-old woman says, “Yeah, I’ve had a great 50 years with my husband because he’s… taller than I am.” Focus on the important traits that actually lead to a strong long-term relationshp: kindness, good communications, respect, fine character.
Kata says
I love this comment Henriette. Just made my day. I’m just shy of 5’4 dating a man who is just shy of 5’8 and given that my previous mates were mostly upwards of 6 feet (some as tall as 6’6/6’7) I have all these hang ups about how my boyfriend needs a foot stool to get to the top shelf in the kitchen and how we are eye to eye when I wear heels… Mostly it’s honestly the attitudes of other women that really get me down… To date I’ve had at least four people mention his height to me and how they only date men over 5’11. (And that’s why they’re still single …) and then I remember how wonderful my partner is – he cooks, he cleans, he’s generous and always thinks of me before himself, he’s got a good sense of humour, he’s fit and takes care of himself and he enjoys the outdoors as much as I do…we share the same passions and have the same life goals… These are the things that matter. Not whether he needs a stool to get to the infrequently used plates.
Leigh Miller says
No but those differences in height make it difficult for partners to have fun together. Like I want to go dancing really bad, but my man won’t dance with me, even in the kitchen, because it is awkward for him dancing with a taller woman. So it can put stress on a relationship.
Mary says
Hi Iris,
I’m 6’o ft and a guy that is interested in me is 5’5. He says it doesn’t bother him the height difference so we’ll see.
Dave says
Mary,
The way you word your response is like you’re going to be real scrutinizing of the guy. Cut him a lot of slack. It DOES bother him but he’s demonstrated the guts to go for it. Right there is a quality of substance worth way more than the height to which superficial people give so much gravity.
Nothing fades more over time than the initial emphasis placed on height at the onset. In fact, once it hits the contempt stage, there’s just that more to hold in disdain in a tall dude – especially a real tall, gangling one you thought was so cool at the beginning – who’s ass the shorter dude may be able to kick, anyway.
Give this 5’5 dude every chance and the benefit of every doubt. It may be some other girl that ends up taking HIM from YOU. Remember that.
Buck25 says
Mary,
It really might not bother him at all. A truly confident guy is not bothered, or at all intimidated, by a woman’s height,(or her exceptional beauty, or her intellect, for that matter).
I’ve dated shorter women and taller women (including one a bit taller than you). Never been bothered by a woman’s height yet. I’m a very average 5’9″, BTW.
John says
Good idea. Only about 30% men are 5’11 or taller. Heights like 6’2 are much less common than people think.
Yet Another Guy says
@John
That calculator is off by several percentage points. It makes 5’10” look like 50th percentile for height, but it is not. According the CDC, the 50th percentile for height is 5’9″ (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/body-measurements.htm). I trust the CDC because their height measurements are taken in stocking feet by medical providers. Self-reported heights are almost always inflated or taken in shoes (most athletes are measured in shoes). The average male dress or athletic shoe adds an inch to man’s height. A barefoot height of 5’11” is closer to the 75th percentile for male height (1 in 4 men are at least 5’11”).
jaimi wallis says
Exactly. Men definitely discriminate taller women and get intimidated, but shouldn’t.
Grenoble says
I don’t know about all men, but every woman I’ve ever dated or asked out has been taller than me. But at 5’2″, most women are taller than me, so I can’t afford to rule out taller women.
I don’t get intimidated by their height, but sometimes the way they brush me off can be pretty discouraging.
It doesn’t matter to most of them that I’m well traveled, speak several languages, play musical instruments and have several hobbies such as archery and writing. I’m not in perfect shape, but I have lost weight and continue to improve my physical well-being. But women are generally pleasant to me and I don’t begrudge them their choices.
I’ll just do what I’ve always done and keep trying and keep working on myself.
Grenoble says
I should just add that, when I say I don’t rule out taller women, I really mean I don’t rule any of them out based on height.
If I find a woman reasonably attractive, I will try to start a conversation. I have dated or at least flirted with women ranging from 5’0″ to 6’4″. I don’t automatically go for women closer to my own height, though I suppose I’ve probably had better luck with them.
Al says
It’s usually the tall men that don’t date taller women. That is an important fact that was conveniently left out. Short men can’t afford to discriminate on height. Short women usually want nothing to do with them. Their chances are actually better with taller women. Now the chances are still not good but it’s a lot better than with short women who many have a bizarre hatred toward short men.
Lynne says
I totally agree. I had a few men i was a match with on a dating site actually say I was too tall so, no thanks. I’m 5’9″ so 6′ in heels. Both guys were 5’10. So I think both women AND men are guilty. For me, I don’t care. It’s who I’m attracted to. I’ve dated guys who were 5’3″ and 5’8″. The man I’m currently seeing is 6’2″. Perfect 🙂
Enza says
The men that rejected you did so because of the many times women shorter than you rejected them.
Roger Vozar says
I’m constantly rejected because I’m 5’6”, and i’ve dated as tall as 6’1” and short as 4’9” – she had a problem because I wasn’t taller and never dated under 6’1”. My late wife was about a half inch taller but usually towered over me due to heels. I don’t know that guys are necessarily intimidated by a woman’s height. Maybe some. I’d doubt that it would be many.
Some other guy says
@Goldie – You said you lowered your height requirement – why do you have one at all? Does it really matter?
Lynn says
So you don’t have any requirements for women?
Bruno says
I have requirements. And most women don’t meet them. The good guys who barely meet your height requirement will not even give you a chance as they are insulted and know that every taller guy will mean more to you then he. And height is so obvious that the taller guys don’t need to do anything to nudge a shorter man out of your heart. So be sure to include this requirement so men can understand what they will be subjected to.
nick says
Lynn, I do. I’m 22, I won’t touch a cigarette smoker, a woman my age with a child, HOLY YUCK!!!!, or a woman who is obese.
Rhio2k says
And for having a requirement that a woman not be obese or smoke, you will be labelled as being shallow, whereas it’s ok for women have requirements that cannot be changed and are entirely out of anyone’s ability to change…
Ruby says
Vanessa #2
I agree. At 5’8″, I’m on the tall side for a woman, but not exactly a giantess. Yet I’ve met men who were over 6 feet tall who thought I was too tall for them, and would actually remark on my height. And those were just the ones who commented; I’m sure there were others who felt that way, but kept it to themselves. OTOH, I’ve dated shorter men who didn’t care a bit. While someone more than a couple of inches shorter probably wouldn’t work for me (I don’t want to feel too big), I try to focus on the the type of person he is before anything else.
Maverick says
OMG, this is called a “disqualifier”. These tall men were disqualifying themselves to you to make you chase them more. Do you not see this?
Goldie says
Some other guy – what can I say, I’m only human. I’m not yet at that point where I’m okay being out with a guy 8-9 inches shorter than I am. Maybe next time. My current boyfriend is 5’10”.
Qver says
GOLDIE:
Yeah, youre only a woman who discriminates. I would classify that as sub-human.
Imagine if 99.9% of men said, “sorry, i refuse to date flat-chested women. And BLACK women?! Yeah right!!”
Does that not sound outrageous? Yet that is what women do, and they try over and over to justify this despicable behavior when it would just be easier to admit they’re simply pieces of shit.
Dave says
Qver – You’re pretty much right. Not all, but many women think its just fine to treat a man they don’t find attractive like scum – and this is absolutely detestable. This applies to their height “preference” also, which is among the things for which these types of sickeningly shallow women will do this. This again, however, is not all women.
If a man does the same thing to a woman the frickin’ world is supposed to ignite in outrage – it is a NAUSEATING double-standard.
They can tell a guy he’s too short and not give a damn about his feelings. But, if a MAN were to tell a girl that her BIG FAT ASS is a turn-off – well, he needs to be frickin’ EXECUTED. How dare a man hurt the feelings of a woman who doesn’t give a DAMN about his OWN feelings.
Same goes for if a man were to tell her she’s not pretty enough or that she’s too flat-chested – that guy should be condemned, right?. But a callous woman is supposed to be able to mouth-off all she wants with impunity with no regard for the feelings of a man. It’s GARBAGE and every guy out there who’s not a groveling kiss-ass knows it!
I’ve always done well with women but I’ve seen many of them engage in this type of conduct toward other guys. I usually held my tongue simply because I wanted to USE the contemptible woman who did it for sex.
And this whole ” want to feel protected” thing is also just shallow nonsense. I’ve never been in a fight with a taller dude with whom I didn’t pave the frickin’ parking lot or lay-out on the canvas.
This does not apply to all women – but to the ones it does – and we all know what I’m talking about – they really are sickening and worthy of contempt.
And in terms of you’re response to Goldie – yeah, its strongly worded, but I see exactly what you mean. Nobody SAID she’s supposed to date a guy EIGHT or NINE inches shorter than herself. What a phony, disingenuous thing for her to post. How’d her height “requirements” work out for HER?
And another thing that really gets me is these women who supposedly so commendably have relaxed their standards – as if they’re all God’s gift to dudes and we should all be so GRATEFULL – that what may very well be some self-important, fat-ass, semi-ugly woman has taken precious mercy on men – what garbage – (not referring to any one specific woman, just this kind of woman in general).
Then, a lot of them dump the tall dude eventually anyway because the WAY overrated initial importance they attach to something as shallow as how high a guy’s head happens to stick up in the air simply can’t stand the test of time or real life. Or, they stay with a tall guy they can no longer stand because their looks have faded and they’re terrified they can’t find anybody else at that point. Then it becomes time for guys to treat them like the trash they used to treat men who didn’t stand up to their “requirements”. Hope they enjoy it.
Again, this does not apply to all women. There are good and decent non-shallow women of substance out there. But it sure as hell applies to a good number of them.
Gerald says
This comment gives me warm fuzzy feelings.
Jack says
Wow as a 5’6” totally jected man, but early 40s, well-educated, good job and a 100% fit, it SSSSOOOOOOOO good to ear, thanks.
Tro says
I love this. Though I am a black pretty n confident young lady
Karl R says
Vanessa said: (#2)
“I think you and the data you referenced are eliminating a very big portion of the equation — men who won’t date taller women.”
They’re irrelevant.
Your available dating pool is made up of the men who want to date you. No matter how much you change your attitude, that number of men is fixed.
Let’s say there are 150 single men in your extended social circle. Let’s say that 80% of them are interested in dating you (30 men). They’re interested in dating you exactly the way you are: 5’4″, your height, your weight.
No matter how you change your attitude, the other 120 still won’t want to date you.
But now the second part of the equation comes into play. How many of those 30 men are you interested in dating? How many do you think are too old, too young, too fat, too skinny, too short, too ugly … or whatever other criteria you choose to use.
Depending on what criteria you choose, that group of 30 men could get whittled down to 25, 10, 5, 3, 1 or none. If you’re 5’4″ and holding out for a man who is at least 5’7″, you’ve eliminated several men out of the 30 (the exact number depends on how much your height mattered to the men). Then you start cutting out men because of age, obesity, attractiveness, employment/income, etc. …
Height is a stupid reason to eliminate someone. It doesn’t matter how few people you’re eliminating. If I ruled out women who were taller than me, I’d be ruling out less than 1% of all women. And it would still be a stupid and self-defeating reason to eliminate women. (In comparison, you were eliminating 19% of all men, by seeking men at least 3″ taller than you.)
Vanessa says
Karl R #6 – I understand what you’re trying to point out but was making the statement more to the point that men are cutting their dating pool just as much as women are cutting there’s by discriminating against height.
For example, that 30 men you mentioned may have been higher, had men within that group not discriminated against me because I was their height, too short, or too tall for them.
The article noted the height difference but my point was simply that it didn’t show if the height difference was a coincidence, or something consciously (or subconsciously) done by the man or woman in the pairing. In other words, I’ve seen just as many men discriminate due to height as I’ve seen women. Do I think it’s right, no, but it does occur.
Rod says
80% of 150 is 120 not 30
cat says
Dating taller men boils down to physical attraction. I’m 5’9″ & didn’t date shorter men or even men my own height. Men normally don’t date women that they don’t find attractive either based on height, weight, hair color, boob size, eye shape, etc, etc. Height is just one of numerous physical attributes that determine physical attraction. If you’re a tall (or short) woman & don’t want to date shorter men, don’t. Who cares if it shrinks your dating pool. The article basically says change what you’re attracted to & that isn’t realistic. I’m married to a tall, dark & handsome man. 🙂 And he’s about the shortest man I dated at 6’1″.
Another Short Guy says
The thing is, there’s no textbox which asks you to fill up your breast size or your eye shape. Thats just insulting.
Also, don’t compare height with weight just because they have almost the same spelling. Weight can be changed. Height can’t. If you want a guy who likes fit women, you can work out. If I want a guy who likes tall men, I can only go home and cry into my pillow.
Yogagurl says
I’d give you a chance. I don’t mind shorter men at all.
short to tall says
There is a surgery that you can get to increase height. I got 2 surgeries to increase my overall height 5 inches to 6foot1. Im currently involved with a beautiful woman 5foot7 that probably would have not given me the time of day back when I was 5foot8. So do I believe height is important in finding a mate, yes, however its not the only thing. I seen short men with money get more dates then tall bums.
SparklingEmerald says
How safe is this surgery ?
I do feel for guys who are passed over because of height, but I can’t see taking surgical risks for this. I see many short men that are paired up, so obviously finding a partner when a man is short is not impossible. (all my LTR’s have been with men in the 5’6″ to 5’7″ range, but I’m not tall and gorgeous, but about average height and more “averagely cute” rather than drop dead gorgeous)
I, and other flat chested women have probably been passed over by men due to our cup size. I don’t begrudge men this preference, as we are attracted to what we are attracted to, and no amount of scolding, shaming, or cajoling is going to change what anyone is attracted to. My own mother suggested that I get breast enlargement surgery and even offered to pay for it but I refused. Partly because I would rather a man love my surgically unaltered self, but mostly, because I avoid medical interventions whenever I can. Surgery carries risks. I can’t imagine the height enhancing surgery being risk-free. I’m glad you found someone and I hope you surgery doesn’t cause any medical issues down later on.
Maverick says
Well well well, I might have just found the perfect thing as I have plenty of money for operations! Thanks for the post. Where does one get this type of surgery? I’m 5’10” so if I could get a surgery just another few inches I’ll probably be able to finally have a family and prevent my wife from divorcing me.
Sarah says
Cat,
I’m with you on this one. Physical attraction is not a choice based on social norms. It’s deeply programmed into our biology. At 5’7″ I prefer a man at least 5’10”, so when I do wear a bit of heel I am not towering over him. A taller man makes me feel more feminine. It is just one trait, but for me one of the only traits I consistently find matters to me. Thanks for speaking up. I think the author of the blog should throw out one of his attraction preferences and go on dates with women he is NOT attracted to. Then he can convince himself with logic to override his own preferences. Attraction is attraction. It’s that simple.
Ray says
Sarah,
I hate to say it but you’re wrong. Physical attraction is 100% based on social constructs and not “programmed into our biology”. for instance, 500 years ago, the pinnacle of female attractiveness was fat. the fatter, the better. It denoted a wealthy and healthy upbringing.
Across the world, especially in remote cultures, there are very specific traits which we would not even consider for attractiveness (lip plates, foot binding, excessively long hair for a man, etc).
It seems that you, like so many of your misled brethren, have bought into the “Tall, Dark, and Handsome” Steriotype and insist that if you were to find love, it could only be with someone who is 6’0 or taller.
Except. only 15% of us are. so when you cry yourself to sleep on a saturday night because for the upteenth time that guy who took you out turned out to be an asshole, consider this…
Tall guys are really the only guys that girls pursue, whereas the other 85% of guys never get pursued by women. Now if 100% of guys pursue women, do you think the methods of the 15% would be different than the 85%? You would be right. the 15% don’t care about you, because they can have another 5’4″ girl chasing after them tomorrow. So hell be nice, act nice, take you nice places, and you’ll sleep with them, and then Poof! hes gone. or… he stays for a while you date, but in the end you break up because (whatever reason) but it probably had something to do with him detaching, being more aloof, and maybe even as bad as cheating. In the end, when you chase after the 15% that don’t appreciate how amazing it is to find someone to spend your life with, your setting yourself up for failure.
SO. Maybe on your next date, give the 5’6 or 5’8″ guy a chance. I bet you anything hell be more attentive, more attracted, and more interested in actually pursuing a relationship with you.
something like that says
“I hate to say it but you’re wrong. Physical attraction is 100% based on social constructs and not “programmed into our biology”
Careful. Those are fighting words in these parts.
Sarah says
Ray,
Wow, you sounds really bitter and angry. Also, you imply that every man 6′ tall is an asshole because he is pursued by all the women. I guess this means I better go tell both of my teenage sons who just rounded 6′ that they are on the brink of becoming assholes solely based on their height. And just to throw a wrench into your personal theory that it is all social programming. I was NOT born and raised in this country. How do you like them apples for your so solid theory that ZERO part of attraction is biology and it is all social programming?
Many of my girlfriends do not care about height. I do. And I did say taller than me. I did not say 6′. Per your definition I can find a few non assholes out there if I stick to the 5’10” – 5’11” LOL. Some of my girlfriends care about income. I don’t. I care about a man’s integrity and how he treats others including me. Of course you sound like a real catch. Attacking me for my personal preferences. Perhaps that is why rather than something with your lack of height?
I do not cry myself to sleep on Saturday nights LOL. Or any other night for that matter. Sure at times I am sad in life, but it isn’t because I go on bad dates or cry over being single. My happiness does not depend on being in a relationship or out of one. Watch out when someone’s happiness is tied to that. You cannot go from loneliness to feeling complete just because you feel in love. And who wants to be on the receiving end of that kind of pressure? I could of course compromise on what I find attractive, which I recognize lots of people do because they would rather be in a relationship than be alone.
There is tons and tons of research tying attraction to subconscious preferences for both human sexes, animals, etc. To say that 100% of our preferences is tied to media is just plain nonsense. Please post your solid research backing up this claim as I would love to read it. And could you also post the research that shows men 6′ and taller are all assholes please, so I can share it with my sons? Thanks.
And I am currently in a very happy relationship with a man who is TALLER than me. He read your post and said, “Wow there’s an angry dude.” Then he chuckled and said, “Thank god I am only 5’11”. I missed asshole by an inch!.”
Dave says
Ray – It is not only tall guys that women pursue in the real world. If, by tall, you mean 6′ and above – Brad Pitt is 5’11. I think he’s had his share of women pursuing him. Robert Downy Jr. is 5’8. Do you think he hurts for action? Robert Redford, Paul Newmann, Marlon BRANDO – all 5’10. Do you think these guys were hurting for women? Yeah, they were movie stars but there are plenty of guys walking the street just as good looking and just as average height as these guys that get girls all the time.
Not to be offensive, but you seem way too obsessed with the importance of height. If a 6′ plus guy is scrawny and ugly, do you think a woman wants him more than a built, handsome guy who’s 5’8-5’11 (the average height range for American men)? Use common sense, man. And forget the, “well, yeah, but all other things being equal,” argument. All other things are NEVER equal in real life.
And something else – if a guy is REAL tall, like 6’5 or above – he has a BETTER chance of eventually being blown-off by a woman in the long run. Why – because the WAY overblown importance given to his height at the onset can never stand the test of time and REAL life. His initial height “advantage” wears off if the relationship lasts any length of time. Then, she blows him off, thinks he’s and asshole and his height no longer means a damn thing to her. Its called REAL life.
And one other important thing – you said for the woman to next time give the guy “5’6 or 5’8” a chance. There is a WORLD of difference between 5’6 and 5’8. At 5’8, you’re in the average height range and then you can depend on your other attributes – like being handsome or well built or charismatic etc. At 5’6, you’re in the short category for sure and many women won’t even consider your other attributes. Its stupid. Its irrational. But many shallow women will dismiss you out of hand if you’re short as compared to average height. Fortunately, there are many women who are not that shallow.
And remember this – handsome beats height every time. If you’re way better looking than a tall guy it erases his height “advantage” unless you’re REALLY short. Strength beats height every time, too. If you destroy a tall guy at arm wrestling in front of the woman his height “advantage” just went out the window. You just humiliated the guy. Height means nothing at that point.
Women want what they THINK they want until they realize they want YOU – a strong, confident, charismatic man that doesn’t think twice about standing up to some tall dude who thinks he’s great. Most tall guys get by on height until their bluff gets called and then they get their ass kicked by an average height guy who can really handle himself.
If a guy is 6 foot whatever and there’s nothing else very special about him, he doesn’t just have another “5’4 girl chasing him tomorrow”. In fact, he may have just had the PREVIOUS girl taken by a built, handsome, confident average-height guy.
You’re putting way too much emphasis on height, man. Its way overrated.
Billy says
Sarah,
You totally missed Ray’s point by picking on a blanket statement to prove him wrong – like liberals do. The blanket statement was meant to reveal a high probability, NOT all cases. Yes, your sons will sleep with many women (because they can) and many of those women will call them a-holes. Your lover will always agree with you, as part of getting something for nothing. We all do
Dave says
Billy – You’re absolutely right. She is ridiculous and she has no right to put Ray down like she did. The fact is that social constructs have a HELL of a lot to do with our thinking and reaction patterns. If shorter guys had been glorified in the media and on TV for the past fifty years then a lot of these pathetically shallow and insulant women would be seeking them out.
Like every condescending, self-entitled “modern” woman she makes it all about her. Who CARES about whether she cries herself to sleep at night? Who CARES about her sons being 6′? Who CARES about what her “boyfriend” thinks? Who CARES about what he “chuckled” and said? In fact, it sounds to me like he didn’t miss asshole at all.
Her post was an arrogant and sickening put-down of a guy just for expressing his honest opinion.
And NOBODY said every guy 6′ or over is an asshole. Only the ones that ACT like assholes are. Plenty of built and handsome guys under 6′ get all the action they want. And this stupid “height makes me feel protected” thing – NEWSFLASH – there are plenty of shorter guys out there who can kick the HELL out of taller ones. I’m 5’9. I used to fight in the ring. I was undefeated in the ring. I have beaten the hell out of every tall guy that ever messed with me on the street. Many of them in front of their girlfriends whom I then took home and slept with after humiliating the loud-mouth in the parking lot. She didn’t feel too protected by him after that. I include this to illustrate my next point –
Height is WAY overrated and the initial importance attached to it at the onset never measures up to the test of time. Plenty of tall guys get blown-off by women, their height no longer meaning a damn thing. And, as soon as she sees him get his ass kicked by a shorter guy he’s toast. Height has VERY little to do with physical prowess or a man’s ability to protect a woman.
I’m so fricking tired of men having to PC everything they say and think – when many women just ASSUME that they can be as arrogant and nasty and condescending as they please.
Ray had every right to express his opinion and did not deserve to be attacked and insulted for it.
modern metro says
Justin says
Never in my life have I had a list of qualifying attributes that I’ve considered before I dated someone. I’m 5’6″ tall, and the love of my life (I thought) was about 5’8″ tall. She was very skinny (which didn’t matter to me… stout or skinny) and she had very small breasts and a little butt… however, after getting to know her, I was absolutely in love with her, and I loved everything about her body too. Everything about her was a major turn-on for me.
When you fall in love with someone, you should love all of their physical features too. I could honestly care less about height, breast size, butt size, or any other physical features. I have no dating criteria, I’m simply attracted to girls on a case-by-case basis; no specific qualifiers. When there’s chemistry of the heart, mind, and body – nothing else matters. There are beautiful people everywhere. Attraction is simply a matter of personality and the heart. (However there has to be a slight physical attraction.) If you love her/him, you will fall in love with everything about them.
It breaks my heart when a girl thinks she needs to have breast augmentation or implant surgery. She is perfect exactly the way she is. If a man turns you down because of something like that, he is NOT worth a single second of your time. Period.
When my girlfriend said she wanted implants, I literally started crying. I explained to her that I loved EVERYTHING about her, and that included her natural breasts. She was so perfect exactly the way she was. Not to be inappropriate, but I was insanely turned on by everything about her natural body. To me, she was a goddess, and our sex life was so perfect. I was in heaven when we were together. (I thought every aspect of our relationship was perfect.)
My point is, how can ANYONE have specific criteria regarding the physical traits of their potential mate? That’s totally myopic thinking, and you’re hurting your own chances of finding the person who will fulfill your life.
Unfortunately, our relationship didn’t last, because she left me for a man nearly 10″ taller than me. She finally admitted to me that she wasn’t comfortable with our height difference, and she didn’t feel comfortable wearing heels around me. I don’t know if she ever really loved me, but I certainly loved her.
It’s difficult to get a date when you’re my height (5’6″). I’m confident, happy, in shape, and kind. Now that I’m 36 years old, I couldn’t get a date to save my life. I get turned down by literally every girl I show interest in, and some have simply told me that I’m too short. I’m afraid of growing old alone. I really need someone to share my love with.
Sometimes I wonder if any women will date a guy my height. It’s been three years since I’ve dated. I recently built up the courage to ask a girl I recently met if she would like to go out sometime for drinks with friends, but she said that she is looking for a tall guy because she wants tall kids in the future. I was kind of blown away that she would even mention my height… or kids for that matter.
Ladies, there are a lot of “short” guys who are good people, confident in their position in life, and very passionate lovers who would love you for the rest of your life.
Please, open up your options and don’t pass up an opportunity to date a guy who is shorter than you’re used to. You could find the love of your life.
Dave says
Justin,
You’re problem arises because you are a genuinely decent man. The kinds of women who disregard guys like you in favor of shallow (and in the long run meaningless) height issues are superficial and largely indecent and phony women. You can bet that the thing between your girl and the new guy will invariably end. She made the sickeningly shallow choice to leave you for him and it will almost certainly backfire in time. There are probably already cracks starting to emerge between them.
There are good women out there but he ones that are callous and shallow are nothing short of detestable – not to mention just plain stupid. You can’t tell them that at the time they pull their hollow, shallow, callous bullshit but the chickens will almost certainly come home to roost on them at some point.
When she tries to come back – refuse to even speak to her. What she did to a good and decent man like you is despicable.
Thom says
1. I’m 5’3″ and boy is online dating discouraging! I’d love to be 5’6″ like Justin, as this would “qualify” me for many more women. I don’t care how tall a woman is, but being slender to average is my benchmark. And of course their interests and lifestyle. I get about a 5% return on my messaging and that includes those who politely decline! I message those even of they require someone who is taller, but I have never received an interested response from any of these. If they’re above 5’7″, I don’t bother because of the low probability, which I’d estimate would be .1% response rate.
Lily says
Justin–you are a stellar human being!
I am older (59) and just met a man who is 64 and probably a bit shorter than me. I am 5’7″. He is affectionate and kind and is in amazing shape (does rock climbing) and exercises every day. I was married for 30 years to a man who is 5’8″. I really love being able to look straight into a man’s eyes.
I hope you find the love of your life!
Maria says
You’re lucky you found a man who likes you at your height and attitude. 5’9 is so unattractive on a woman, unless you have the face and body of a model. And let’s be real: most taller women don’t look like models. 😉
Kathleen says
Good article. Im at least 6 foot when Im out in heels so Im visibly aware of the smaller pool of tall men.!! Im always astounded when short women say they won’t date anyone under 6 foot but I think tall men are afforded an unconscious elevation of status , just for being tall.
I did have a lover who was 5 foot 6″ but he was an extremely confident guy who insisted I wear sexy high heels. You should have seen us dancing with his head at my chest and all the attention we would get LOL
Think this is a great point Evan so I lowered my height range today.
Goldie says
@ cat #8: “Who cares if it shrinks your dating pool. The article basically says change what you’re attracted to & that isn’t realistic.”
It doesn’t just shrink your dating pool. It rules out a large number of quality men, that you would’ve enjoyed dating if you knew they existed. But you won’t, because they failed to meet the height requirement. This is the one downside of online dating. We’ve all met guys in real life who have so much personality and charisma, we don’t even notice how tall they are. They could be an inch or two shorter and we’d go out with them anyway, without paying attention to their height. Online though, we’ll never even get to meet them, because they won’t get through our filter. From where I stand, it looks like we’re the ones that are missing out.
I was married to a 6″ man, look where it got me 🙂
Lynn says
His being tall is not the reason your relashionship ended. Relationships end with short and average height (5’10) men too.
J says
maybe you need closer to 10″ to be satisfied completely.
Joe says
Vanessa, you’re still kind of missing the point. Evan is here not to point out the ways men can change their dating perspectives to find love–he’s here to point out how women can change their dating perspectives to find love.
Lynn says
The same could be said for men. If men could change their perspective on what they find most attractive, and give a chance to other women, then men could also find love more easily.
It is not a fair point just to ask one gender to lower their requirements. I don’t see any articles about asking men to lower theirs.
V says
The difference is, men have preferences, women have requirements. I would never insist that a women be 3″ or more shorter than me even if I were 6’4″, because it’s lunacy and cruel (I’m actually 5’10). I might *prefer* that to be true… but requirements aren’t something most men get to even consider.
Women essentially monopolize sexual selection. They can go out at any time and find someone interested in them, if they’re so much as average. For men this isn’t really true – women consistently go for the top 20% of men and largely ignore the rest (and of this 20%, height is a big factor). So there’s this huge differential between men and women’s expectations. The short of it is that women are spoilt for choice and, just spoilt in general.
Carl says
So true.
Buck25 says
Lynn,
There have been plenty of exchanges here, where that’s been suggested to men. In fact, I’ve seen references to several studies which suggest that men (as a group) are actually more willing to compromise on attraction preferences than women (as a group) are. Most of us, at least those who are not in the top 10% looks-wise, find we have to; if the only women we reached out to were 9s and 10s, we’d never get a date. Of course, that compromise isn’t unlimited; we do have a bottom threshold, below which all the personality in the world is not going to attract us. That threshold is lower than you might think for many of us, but of course, that’s not going to help the woman who’s far below average in appearance.
Ray M says
Maybe it’s because men don’t have such unrealistic, superficial standards. Growing up, I heard that men were the more superficial sex, caring more about a woman’s physical attributes than her personality when it came to what was considered attractive. In reality, I’ve experienced and witnessed the exact opposite — women establish superficial qualifications for the men they’re willing to date while men have very few deal breakers in terms of physical features. I’ve NEVER heard a man say that he wouldn’t date a woman because her breasts were too small, her hips to narrow or too wide, or any of the other physical traits that WOMEN obsess over. The fact is that men are much more forgiving than women are when it comes to superficial qualities they seek in a mate.
Dave says
Ray,
I absolutely agree. What Lynn seems to be missing is that most men DO give “other” women a chance. But, the segment of superficial, height-requirement women ridiculously draw the line at a certain height. This is not all women. But, it certainly is some of them.
Think of how stupid this is when you analyze it. Suppose a woman won’t accept a man under six feet tall. So then some ugly, scrawny 6 footer comes along. Then, along comes Brad Pitt at 5’11” – or someone like Robert Redford or Paul Newman at 5’10”. See how stupid these requirements are? Attraction is an overall package of which height is only a part.
Many women ARE much more superficial than men. However, there are good women out there, also.
The one’s that place SO much emphasis on height are ridiculous. Think of it. When it comes to the things that really matter in a relationship, after a long enough time, the whole height attraction to someone will have worn off. It’s the attributes necessary to sustain a long-term relationship (heart, goodness, decency, loyalty etc.) that are the ones that need to endure.
Jenna says
Height isn’t a huge issue for me, but one thing that irritates me is men who don’t work out regularly. If I’m thin and work out five times a week, why do I have to settle for a flabby guy or a guy with no muscles? It’s not an instant disqualifier, but I’m aware of it. And even writing this makes me sound superficial, but I just want someone of roughly equal attractiveness and when girls say things like that they get slammed.
Lynn says
It is only fair to want a partner who stays in shape if you are in shape. That is what you deserve. I don’t see many men going around dating women in much worse shape than themselves.
David says
You’re correct Lynn, you don’t see a lot of men dating women in much worse shape than them. However you do see a LOT of men MARRIED to women in much worse shape than them.
Evelyn says
I see a lot more women married to men in worse shape than them, rather than the other way around.
Buck25 says
Jenna,
You shouldn’t get slammed for saying that; it’s an attraction preference, and moreover, it’s one most people can meet, provided they do the necessary work. Of course, that point of view is not particularly popular among the overweight crowd, male or female. On this blog, a fit guy gets slammed for not wanting to date obese women; not just slightly overweight, mind you; obese, as in 40 or more pounds overweight. I’ve been slammed for that, as well as for my “intolerance” of women who deliberately lie about their obesity online. I’ve concluded that “shallow” is simply a word some people use as a weapon against anyone who dares not be attracted to someone like them.
Evan Marc Katz says
“Shallow” is simply a word some people use as a weapon against anyone who dares not be attracted to someone like them.”
That’s a really good line.
Protest too much says
For the last time….
No one cares that you don’t want to date overweight women. OK?
It does make you look like a jerk that you feel the need to constantly talk trash about them (just don’t date them and keep it moving, ya know?). But still, it’s your life.
Let it go Buck. Stop playing the martyr.
Protest too much says
I should have wrote that no one is upset that you don’t want to date overweight women.
Ricky Ricardo says
I am second that emotion. As a handsome, physically attractive man, I don’t want big and beautiful girls. I feel I deserve my equal or better in all aspects of the word. I don’t think we should compromise on the things that matter most to us. It is never wise to force attraction.
cat says
@ Goldie – it doesn’t really apply to me now since I’m married. But I was just stating that I did have a height requirement & I did find love.
Yuri says
I totally agree with this article. Some added height is nice, but it won’t attract me to a guy. The average male is 5’10”!! Why would I ask for someone over 6 feet tall?
I’m 5’6″, and I’ve dated guys from 5’2″ to 6’6″. I will admit that I would like a guy to be at least my height or around it, but I won’t shut out a guy if he doesn’t qualify for my height standards. Height has nothing to do with personality, which is far more important to me.
That being said, my boyfriend is 6 feet tall, but it honestly had very little to do with my attraction to him. He’s just an awesome person who happens to be tall. I’d feel the same about him if he were 5’4″. It really is inconsequential in the great scheme of things.
Amy says
When I see couples where the man is shorter, woman taller, I think it shows confidence on the part of both people, they just don’t care about conformity. There is something very sexy about that. I am 5ft 6in, and have dated men who are 5ft 5in, all the way to about 6ft 3 in. Taller isn’t necessarily better, sometimes I feel slightly intimidated if a guy is too tall, like he’s looking down on the top of my head…not a good feeling. At the same time, no woman wants to be in bed with a guy who makes her feel like the incredible hulk. 5ft 5in or so is almost too short for me, though I’m fine with a guy who’s 5ft 8 or 9 in. There are plenty of women who are tiny, 5ft tall or shorter. A guy who is 5ft 5in is almost 6 inches taller than those women, so have at it I say!
There is a strong psychological element to this that the article doesn’t address: many women feel safer with a guy who is at least a little taller (2-3in) than them. I don’t think this is cultural, but more biological, evolutionary.
Brian says
Thank you for finally saying it when no one else would. It’s biological evolution, but I also believe it satisfies a woman’s subconscious desire for social upward mobility (for her and her offspring), and is fueled by our societal concept of height being directly proportional to success/admiration.
Scooter says
This is only partially true. There is an innate component, but without going into a 10-page diatribe, I’ll just say that you’d be foolish to discount societal engineering.
-Shorter men are paid less.
-Shorter men are openly ridiculed in all forms of media.
-Shorter men have lower self-esteem and tend to do poorer in school, due to bullying.
Now, if you don’t think all of that doesn’t magnify the height prejudice of women in the dating world.. I don’t know what to say.
I’ve made an analogy many times before, and I think it still holds merit: Dating for short men in this age, is as tough as interracial dating for black men back in the 50s.
Buck says
I agree with this comment 100%, I have by all traditional standards a very attractive symmetrical masculine male face, I lift weights and work out 4 times a week and still have the same waist size as I did in high school (I’m 34 year old now) but have added 30 pounds of muscle to my frame, I am a physician in a very coveted specialty, I am an accomplished guitarist and singer, I come from a great stable family and have a great relationship with my parents, and I am not introverted at all and been in elected to leadership positions in male groups my whole life..but I wear a scarlet letter..I am 5″6.
In the online world even if I list all of these qualities I am still invisible to most women. In the real world I approach girls to talk to them and many seem downright hostile with an attitude like “who is the creepy short guy, who does he think he is trying to talk to me” so I don’t even get a chance to show off my great qualities. Even when I go out with very short girls I still get the sense they feel like they are settling.
Its a cruel world for the short man in this day and age. I come from a long line of short men and they had success finding mates for generations upon generations..what I tend to see now is young girls chasing after and having sex with the select 18% of guys 6″ or taller in there prime fertile years and then expecting average height to below average height guys to be there to provide for them once they hit 30+ all the while still pinning for this “tall, dark, and handsome” its a sad world view, but from observations and personal experience in todays warped society it is not far off base.
John says
Which is interesting since at 5’6 you’re still taller than most women.
Vanessa says
Joe #11 – Again I understand that and agree with Evan that the idea of dating someone by height is ludicrous. My point was more in addressing where Evan stated, ‘But one thing that I’ve never really gotten — after 10 years as a dating coach — was women’s obsession with height.’ I was making a point of noting that although women may be ‘obsessed’ with height, men are just as likely to be obsessed by the height factor.
Kevin says
Men are not at all as obsessed about height as women are. There are plenty of guys who would love to date a taller woman–or a short woman–or just any woman. Guys are far more likely to be concerned about weight.
Lynn says
Men are not as obsessed about height because it is easy for them to find women shorter than them. A lot, although not necessarily all, of men want to feel taller and stronger than their girlfriends.
However, a lot of men are very much obsessed about women’s weights. My friend was dumped by her bf after she gained weight. There are so many forums and blogs about bashing overweight women, it’s sad and ridiculous.
Vbar says
yes but you cannot do anything to change your height but you can change your weight.
bruno says
Please don’t compare a healthy fit man’s desire for a fit woman, with a tall women’s desire for a taller guy. Fitness is either a choice or a health concern; whereas height is neither a choice nor health related. But you can seek and settle for whatever you want. We all make choices and take our chances with relationships. You are free to measure a man in anyway you desire. Life is a pursuit.
Kevin says
Being a short guy (5’5″-5’6″), it’s not always easy to find a woman who’s shorter AND willing to date me. Most short guys I know don’t have a lot of dating options and so we really don’t care about height. Some might prefer to date a shorter female but most won’t have such strict height requirements. Personally I prefer tall women , but I’d never turn down a short one.
Weight is a totally different topic. I stay in shape and prefer the same in a partner.
Goldie says
@ Cat #13 – congratulations on your marriage. But I’m confused, why do you advise other people, who didn’t yet find love, not to give up on their height requirements, yet you do not give them any logical reasons why they shouldn’t? “I am married to a tall guy” is not a logical reason. What good it is to them that you are married to an awesome tall guy? it’s not like they can have him.
cat says
@Goldie#17…I’m saying you don’t have to lower your standards or try to change what you are naturally attracted to. If you’re a woman who is attracted to shorter men that’s great, if you’re a woman who is not attracted to shorter men, that’s great too. Don’t be ashamed of what you’re naturally attracted to. In the long run, if you’re trying to force yourself to be physically attracted to something you’re not naturally inclined to just because there is “more out there”, I think it may cause problems down the line in the relationship.
Kevin says
It’s a numbers thing. Saying you’re not attracted to overweight men is one thing–you can probably find an in-shape/not-so-overweight guy plus one woman’s “overweight” is another woman’s “average” or teddy bear–it’s subjective. Also, a man can lose weight. On the other hand, setting a hard limit like 6 feet automatically eliminates the majority of men from your dating pool, period. No 5’11” man is going to gain that last “crucial” inch–it’s not subjective. Some women can afford to be picky and some can not.
bruno says
I am an exceptionally fit 5 ft 8 in male. I do not date overweight women. So that leaves 25% of the female population. If most don’t want a rich fit handsome well educated professional man, then I have no problem getting many other young attractive ladies. I also take women away from tall blue collar guys. Ladies want fit guys with a full head of hair and class. Tall guys provide the height requirement, but most fall short compared to my inventory of offerings. Too many women try to shoehorn 6 ft 2 in catches into their remaining checklist items, but find out that they really did settle based on height and forsaken most of their “real” requirements. Then he dumps her with kids for another blind height worshiper.
Heidi says
You forgot to mention how modest your are!!….
Lily says
I like fit bald guys. Baldness indicates higher testosterone. And I think muscles with a shaved or bald head is very sexy. But every woman has her own taste. I do like fit men as I am thin and fit.
Tom10 says
“I am 6’1 fit and I went through hell to maintain my fabio like mane , the biggest fear of mine was being bold”
Nothing wrong with being “bold” George — in fact women like a bit of bold, if it’s in a cheeky way 😉
“I always distrust and look down upon bald men, and I always sense their envy upon seeing my shoulder length mane. We men hate each other and always try to one up
This is such a bizarre statement.
I don’t hate other men; why would I? What have they done to me? Comparing yourself to other men is a classic sign of insecurity, which is more unattractive than being bald.
I worked for years beside a male model, who was also kind and easy-going. Women loved him, in fact everyone did. However, by being secure in my own attributes I never felt any animosity to him. And to this day we’re still buddies.
Don’t distrust and look down on others, George. Just be confident in yourself. It’s so much more attractive than a “fabio like mane.”
j says
Your “standards”?
A standard is like not wanting a liar, or cheater.
Even though I prefer a fit woman, I would not say my weight preferences are a “standard”. That is really snobby.
Jackie Holness says
Height shouldn’t be too critical of an issue in finding love, but so glad my fiance’ is over 6 feet tall…LOL….
Kristen says
I am a six feet tall woman. It would be nice to date men who are taller but it’s not realistic. The vast majority of men I have dated have been shorter than me. The shortest was 5’2″. Despite the fact that I am very open to dating shorter men, I have found that men, no matter what their height, are not nearly as open to dating very tall women. I’ve had quite a few men insist that I only wear flat shoes so that I don’t appear so much taller. I’ve never asked a guy to wear lifts nor has even it crossed my mind.
I would venture to guess that the discrimination I face in online dating based on my height is probably equal to or greater than that faced by very short men. I have found that listing my height in my profile as 5’11” instead of 6’0″ has resulted in more men contacting me or responding to me online but not significantly more. Once I changed my height to 5’7″ for a week just to see what would happen. I had probably 100x the number of men view my profile and recieved 20x the number of messages than I did when my height was listed at 6’0″. To put this in perspective, when my true height was listed I was only getting 1 or 2 messages per week. Then I removed the fact that I am a vegetarian and a lawyer from my profile. It made no difference in the number of profile views or messages I recieved regardless of whether my height was listed at 6’0″ or 5’7″. So I know that of those three things (vegetarian, 6’0 and lawyer), it’s my height that makes the difference in whether men online are interested in me.
While tall men may be both in high demand and short supply, only 0.7% of women are 5’10” or taller so it’s not like men feel they are missing out by excluding such a small percentage of women. I find it interesting that I get approached by men much more frequently in real life than ever contact me online. At this point, I have kind of given up on online dating as a way to meet anyone due to the lack of interest men online have in me.
Kevin says
I LOVE tall women! If I had a 6 foot girlfriend I’d want her to wear her 5 inch heels. I love it!
Hello says
Create a male profile and list your height at 5’2″. Then sit back and watch as you get 1 message every 2-3 years.
Scooter says
Hi Kristen! I am sorry you faced such difficulties with online dating. However, I want to make a comment:
I think your difficulties are an indirect result of the height requirements that most women (who are likely shorter than you) have, for men. Most men who are shorter than you probably don’t even try for a woman of your stature, simply because of the societal taboo and/or having been unceremoniously “shot-down” by women who are taller.
As a 5’5 guy, I can tell you I don’t try for women who are your height, anymore. It’s not that I don’t find such women attractive, it’s just that I’ve had marginal success.
On a tangent: Conversely, women who are around your height tend to be much more gracious with letting me down, than women who are shorter than me. It’s just anecdotal, but women who are shorter than me tend to be far more nasty with their rejections. I think it’s mainly due to their own insecurities, and the idea that women tend to shop for men with the requirement that he be socially acceptable to her girlfriends. (And probably mom&dad, too)
Sheesh.. I wish this whole height taboo would go away.. as Evan has (essentially) said, it’s illogical.
Cat5 says
Kristen,
Me too! I’m 5′ 11″ and a lawyer. Men are not as open to dating tall women as people like to think. I’ve dated fuys frim 5′ 3″ and up. I”ve had them ask me to put on flats also…when I’m wearing flats!
When I have heels on that are perfect for my outfit, and some g it wants me to go buy another pair of shoes that are perfect for my outfit but with no heels? Does he know how many pairs of shoes I already tried on with no heels, high heels, medium heels, wedge heels, etc. To find this pair? And he wants to complain because they make me too tall? Right there I know we are not a match!
Cat5
Robyn says
It’s a great idea in principle – broaden your search criteria & there will be many more candidates that meet your criteria & are potential partners.
But just because you decide, as a tall woman (which I am at 6ft barefoot) that you are now open to dating shorter guys, doesn’t mean that there are suddenly going to be a slew of shorter guys that want to date you.
In my personal experience, the majority of men do not find women that are physically bigger than them (height-wise or width-wise) attractive. Some of it’s due to millions of years of biological wiring, and some of it’s due to centuries of societal attitudes and practices (that were partly driven by the same biological wiring), and then there’s just individual personal preferences that are not logically explainable (e.g. some guys love brunettes, others prefer blondes – there’s no reason for their preferences – it just “is what it is”).
So in some ways. “going shorter” when you are a significantly tall woman may just result in even more rejection. Which kinda defeats the object of the exercise.
But on the other hand, holding out for the perfect 6’3″ tall guy would make it exponentially more difficult to find a mutual match.
I have always set my desired height range to 5’10” and up when it comes to online dating, because that’s a total of twice the potential partner population than the number of men that are over 6′ tall.
Assuming that not too many of the bunch are lying about their height (ha, ha, ha!).
I don’t “go shorter” than 5’10” online any more for much the same reason as I mentioned above – plus many more men exaggerate their height if they are below average height (which is 5’9″ for men in the US).
In my experience anyway – “going significantly shorter” was in the end counter-productive. I just ended up on more dates where I got the “gee you’re so tall” comment (& it wasn’t a “oh goodie, I’m loving that you’re tall” complimentary type of comment).
[Note: My profile contains my real height – I guess these fella’s didn’t read too closely… yet another cliche].
I’ve heard of some tall women that actually post their height online as been an inch or two taller than it really is, so that they – in theory – are less likely to run into the above situation. But I’ve never tried it myself. Seems like too much of trying to “game the system” which is already full of people fudging their age/height/marital status in order to get ahead.
Rochelle says
I think it’s about finding a medium.. I toned down my preference for taller men awhile ago. In my early college years he HAD to be at least 6′, lol, then I found myself attracted to men the same height as me and realized it was one of those criteria that wasn’t as important as I thought. I would ideally like him to be 6’2″ but it’s hasn’t been mandatory for years. Funny thing is once I let go of making it “must be at least 6′” mainly 6′ or so men started to show up. And I’m still not particularly attracted to shorter men, like 5’5″. (I’m 5’7″) For me I don’t see it as a hindrance in my current decision in not dating shorter than me, since all the men who approach me are either slightly taller or much taller.
Karmic Equation says
I’m just shy of 5′ and only TWO guys 5’9″ or less have ever asked me out on a date (one was was about 5’5″, the other 5’9″). My ex hubby and ex-LTR of 6 yrs were 5’10” — my other bfs have been over 6′ tall. And currently most of the men I’m attracting are around 6′.
I get what Vanessa’s saying. If “short” guys don’t ask me out, I can’t date them, can I? And practically ALL shorter-than-average guys ARE taller than me!
Since I don’t believe in making the first move, that means I’m dating 5’10” + guys because THEY are seeking ME out, not the other way around.
I believe Vanessa’s saying that MEN’s preferences contribute to the statistics as much as women’s do. Maybe even more so, as I’m pretty sure that MOST women on this site AREN’T making the first move.
guy1138 says
It’s a scientific fact that more than 70% of human communication is non-verbal.
This is larger than a “perhaps”: consider you are projecting and overtly disinviting presence to all men shorter than 5’10”. It is likely that shorter men aren’t approaching you because you are making it more than clear it would be a waste of time – possibly even an invitation for you to insult them – should they do so.
Goldie says
Cat #18, this is exactly the point I am trying to make — yes, we need to have our standards and not compromise on what we want in a partner, otherwise the relationship will not work. But compared to other things that are critical in a partner, including physical attraction, height is not that strict of a standard. Worse, it is an artificial standard. On paper we have no problem saying that we only want 6’0″ and won’t ever settle for 5’11”, yet in real life we won’t be able to even tell the difference between the two. Worse yet, it is an artificial standard that distracts us from things that we are really attracted to. One thing I found with strict, external guidelines like that is that they create a blind spot. They make you overlook things you should not be overlooking. If a woman only wants a guy 6′ tall or higher, and only finds three of them available that are also interested in her, she’ll be tempted to ignore those three guys’ negative traits, because these tall men are so rare and were so hard for her to find. Now this is what will cause her problems down the line in the relationship. Don’t know how long you’ve been married, but from my experience, after you’ve been with the man for over 20 years, his height is the least of your concerns. Other things become more important and they are the things that will make or break a marriage or relationship. When we severely limit our pool based on something like height, this makes us ignore those other things. This is all I am saying.
Lauren says
Aren’t we ignoring a real factor here – the psychological impact that being short and having a small stature while growing up has on a man? It’s common enough that it has a name – a Napoleon Complex. I have had male friends and acquaintances who have been under 5’8″, and I’ve found that these men can be defensive and feel like they have something to prove, and might be excessively into lifting weights or into their looks.
While they might be great guys on the inside, if he feels like he has to compensate for something, that is a turn off (as it would be for anyone, male or female, that doesn’t feel comfortable in their own skin).
I’m 5’4″, I’ve dated men ranging from 5’6″ to 6’7″. The last time I did online dating, I didn’t restrict my matches on height since I figured it would increase my odds. I do have to admit, my boyfriend is 6′, and his height/build is part of what makes him attractive, but even if he was my height, I’d still be attracted to him!
TheForgottenOne says
@Lauren — I’m 5’7″ and can tell that I most definitely do not have a ‘Napoleon Complex’. I’m not defensive about my height and I don’t really care if a woman is not attracted to me because of it. I’m very active, fit and successful in my career. I have plenty to offer for any woman. If a woman is not attracted to me because of my height that’s their problem, not mine. Next!
billy says
Yeah that comment didnt sound defensive at all.
bruno says
So you bash a man for working out and think he should accept an otherwise normal physic? Every man needs a goal. What personal goals do you have that require sacrifice and effort? If he likes to workout don’t put that positive goal into the same psychological excuse factory that women produce overweight lifestyles they guard so ardently.
Scooter says
And welcome to a cornerstone of heightism, folks, as demonstrated by Lauren.
So wait Lauren, you acknowledge that some short men are negatively affected by bullying and other forms of social marginalization, and then chastise those men for reacting like normal human beings (i.e. becoming depressed, reactive, having low self-esteem etc)? Wow. Then again, how in the hell do you know that a given short guy is “angry at being short”? And if your male acquaintances were 6’+, I doubt you would make ANY association between a physical feature, and their negative personalities.
But of course, since tall assholes don’t exist.. oh WAIT, they DO, and do so in droves. Must be because they are tall /sarcasm
You use the completely illogical and denigrating “Napoleon Complex” to back your claim. What do you call tall assholes with the same negative traits? Do they have “Goliath Complex”? Why is it only short men seem to have this extra stigma attached for (essentially) reacting like beings with emotion?
Try this: Next time a black person behaves in an aggressive or uncivil manner, kindly go up to him/her and tell said person that he/she has n—– complex.
OHHH WAIT.. that would be terribly offensive, due to you stereotyping another individual, based on what should be a neutral trait.
V says
You have to admire the level of cognitive dissonance here in the comments – all from women claiming “height really doesn’t matter”, immediately (and invariably) followed by, “although my boyfriend IS 6’0 or taller…”
Duri says
This is something I’ve discussed with my live-in boyfriend. Early on, he asked me if I would have dated him if he were exactly the same, except 5’8″ or 5’10” (I’m just over 5’8″ and he’s 6’2″). My response surprised me: “I would have, except I never would have found you.” I can honestly say I would be very happy to be with a 5’10” version of him (who really cares; we’re compatible), BUT I realized that we literally wouldn’t have met if he were that height because it was the most constant criteria I used in running searches online (OKCupid) and that’s how I first contacted him. He wasn’t in my matches until I searched, either. It’s hard to knock a system that worked extremely well for me (I was online dating less than a week, because I met him, and we’re coming up on 2 years of bliss), and at a certain point you have to use some criteria to narrow down the masses online, but I now recognize that that particular criteria could have really screwed me out of the best thing I’ve ever found.
bruno says
So what was your criteria?
Kylie says
I am one of those 5 foot nothing women that loves tall men, and I mean over 6’3. I am 25, fairly attractive and in good shape. I have other requirements too like minimum age of 35 and must love fishing/outdoors. I have to say I didnt find it difficult to find men that met these criteria. Im with the love of my life, he treats me so well and he is 6’5 with an amazing fit body. My ex was 6’7 and also very attractive. There were other suitors in the 6’2-6’9 range but they just werent the “one”. I cant help what Im attracted too, it doesnt make me a horrible person to say I love tall men.
Dave says
Kylie -Brad Pitt is 5’11. I guess BRAD PITT would not live up to your standards. Nor would young versions of Paul Newman, Robert Redford, Warren Beatty or Marlon Brando! Do you see how ridiculous that sounds to a reasonable person? Your “other suitors” who met your “requirements” didn’t work out, did they? I guess your “requirements” weren’t all that on-the-money in those cases. And your 6″7 “ex” who was so “very attractive” – where’s he now? Oh, but the current guy is “the love of your life” – suuure he is.
If a guy 5’8-5’10 that can really handle himself beats the hell out your tall boyfriend in front of you (and trust me, there are LOTS of them out there who CAN), you’ll have a whole new perspective on your height “requirements”.
Height might fool a superficial woman, but I guarantee your tall boyfriend dreads getting his ass kicked by a regular-sized guy. So, what he’ll do is pretend to be the strong, silent type – the silent part simply being a ruse to cover-up his fear to a woman when he’s around a normal height guy that his instincts know he can’t mess with. Other times he may be a big mouth, I don’t know. I don’t know this particular individual, but a lot of tall guys are just that – big mouths who can’t back it up when their bluff gets called.
Mike Tyson is 5’11. Maybe your current boyfriend is more of a man than a young Mike Tyson- yeah, right. Do you see how ludicrous your so-called “requirements” are?
You’re 25. Most people at 25 still have a hell of a lot to learn. The vast majority of men have only one “requirement” for relationships that don’t last (like all your others didn’t). I think we all know what that is. And no, your “requirements” don’t make you a horrible person. The ridiculous height “requirement” just makes you somebody that most REASONABLE people would, in my opinion, find very fake, phony, shallow and superficial.
By the way, 6″5 and above is WAY outside the NORMAL curve. Its a borderline circus freak, especially when its matched with a “five foot nothing” female. Other folks, in my opinion, look at that and think the height difference is ludicrous. They just won’t say that to your face.
Sorry BRAD PITT – but you just don’t meet Kylie’s “requirements”.
Just me says
Why do have to bring up the whole kicking their ass thing in ever comment? I get you’re trying to make a point but this isn’t an MMA, boxing or any other fighting style forum. You seem to have an aggression issue. Either that or an insecurity about your height to keeping throwing out that you and a lot of other short guys can wipe the floor with a lot of tall guys. I’m sure you can kick some ass but your luck will eventually run out one day and some tall dude is gonna toss you around like a bag of apples.
SD2606 says
As a decent-looking, fit, but shorter man, I can tell you that you represent MOST women, at least in my part of the world. I’ve had to lead life disappointed time and time again as women my height (or shorter) disregard me because of height. It’s really frustrating being attracted to a woman and have hope that maybe, just maybe because for once she is the same height as me, or shorter, that I might have a chance at forming a relationship with her. But NO. Even the shortest of women just can’t be seen with someone her height… oh, heaven forbid! The heck with the lot of you.
cat says
@Goldie 24 – I agree, it’s not that “strict” of a standard, but it is what it is. I guess there are women that can/do compromise it & there are those that don’t. I was the latter & it all worked out.
Laine says
I like tall men. I am just not attracted to men who are shorter than me. Never have been, never will. Im 5’8 and my boyfriend is 6 ft.
starthrower68 says
Height is to men what weight is to women. Except with overweight women are perceived as lazy and stupid. Because my weight makes me unattractive no one would guess I work two jobs and have an MPA. I’m not mad about it, it is what it is. I have not been successful at weight loss so I will just accept that I am undatable. The pressure is off 😀
bruno says
You couldn’t be more wrong. There is no way for a man to get any taller. And being short is not a reflection of poor diet, poor exercise or a reflection of potential psychological issues.
Amy says
bruno if you’re so angry about women rejecting you for being short and being “shallow” you could try to be a little less judgemental of overweight women. don’t throw stones.
I don’t think your problem is your height.
Scooter says
Amy, you must be joking. He just made a statement that is valid, without casting any stones.
1) Being short in itself is not a prognosticator of health any more than is being Asian, African, or having large breasts.
2) Where has Bruno mentioned being rejected due to height? And if he did, do you doubt him? Are you seriously going to say, contrary to the mountain of overwhelming evidence, that he would be wrong?
Your final line is, “I don’t think your problem is your height”.. umm.. you don’t know that.
Sarah says
Good for you! And sorry for the derogatory comment made by Bruno below implying that not being physically perfect (other than height, which we have not control over) must mean we all have poor diet and psychological problems.
Kristen says
I agree with Robyn 21. As I mentioned ealier, I am 6″0″ and, while the majority of men I have dated have been shorter than me, only a couple have been under 5’10”. I would guess that this is because men don’t want to date women who are much more than a couple inches taller. I don’t list a height preference on my profile. Nevertheless, most of the men (at least 90%) who contact me online are not under 5’10.” So while I am open to dating any height, men of average height or less don’t seem too interested in dating me.
bruno says
This is a rare situation as a very minute percentage of women are 6 ft tall.
Kevin says
I think there are many men who would date a 6′ woman. However, many short men (let’s say under 5’9″) know the vast majority of women prefer tall guys and will just assume you will want the same and only be looking for a guy who’s 6’+. Try approaching more guys. You only live once. 🙂
Du says
I agree with Kevin. If the man thinks his success rate is low with a tall (or taller) woman, he would just put his efforts on someone else. And every guy probably knows his success rate in online dating is even worst. I am guilty of this myself, where I have found some women attractive but the moment I saw her height I think I am just wasting my time. I don’t even bother looking if she put a height preference.
Jen says
There is nothing wrong with having a preference for a certain range of heights. How is that any more shallow than all the other things that people judge other people’s attractiveness on? Yes some take it to an extreme and they should be more open minded. But we all look for what we are attracted to.
To the extent you can show any quantifiable characteristic is not important for happiness a relationship, you are making the argument against online dating. How are we supposed to know if the short guy, or the older or younger one, or the less attractive one (maybe he’s only less attractive in two dimensions), or the one with different politics, or whatever…is the one that we will have chemistry with in real life, despite our superficial preferences? Just meet them in real life and you don’t have to have search criteria. You don’t have to spend more than a few moments finding out if there is some potential.
Bruno says
If I read that a women wants a man that is at least my height 5 ft. 8 in., I would not be that interested, since I would be the shortest she would consider. And I don’t want to be with someone who sees me as barely acceptable. I will let some other 5 ft. 8 in. guy be subjected to her important scale that places him in a broader line relationship.
Cat5 says
I am just going to repeat what I said in the other height-related blog post Evan made:
“We had a discussion about this issue last week at work.
As a 6′ tall woman, I get a lot of comments about how I should be dating shorter men to expand my dating pool. People often say that height doesn’t matter because [insert crude reference here]. People say these things to me despite the fact my ex-husband was shorter than me by an inch or two, and that I have dated many men shorter than me (and many men taller than me). The shortest gentleman I ever dated was 5”² 3”³. He was a great guy but the height difference was just too awkward. I don’t mind an inch or two, but 9”³ is just too much.
So when a 6’2”³ gentleman said this to me last week, I asked him – So you would be okay dating a 6”³ 11”³ tall woman? a 6”² 5”³ woman? a 6”² 2”³ woman? Suddenly everything was different. Not only would he not date a 6”² 11”³ woman, he didn’t think he would even date a 6”² 2”³ woman. And most of the guys at the table agreed with him. A few even admitted they wouldn’t date me because I was 6”² and usually wore heels, making me at about 6”² 3”³ most of the time.
So it’s not just women who have an issue with height. Men have their own also. “
Zina says
I’m a long-time reader of this blog, first-time poster.
i totally agree with Lauren @25. Many short men I’ve met DO have some degree of the Napoleon Complex – and they always try to compensate for it. In many times, it was actually a good thing as they tried harder to work on relationship issues, please in bed, be a good partner in general. May be because they felt they HAVE to work harder than the taller men – who, as correctly pointed out, have more dating options and are, in general, considered to be “more attractive”. In other cases, the chip on their shoulder was too big and they looked clearly uncomfortable in the presense of taller men. I’ve also heard from men that they LIKE shorter women (that is, shorter than them) because it makes them feel more masculine and “protective” (not my words, just repeating).
Scooter says
Truly, it is responses like these on message boards, and voiced opinions (by women and men) of the same sort that make me believe people can be indoctrinated into any idiocy.
Questions&Statements:
1) Why is it that Napoleon Complex, which is a fallacious stereotype attributed to short men, is not also attributed to “taller” men?
2) For the Napoleon Complex to make any sense, one would have to think that short men are just born with bad attitudes, or have a predisposition to be born as such. (Obviously, not true) One would also have to poignantly ignore the effects of social marginalization that is inflicted upon most short men, for the majority of their lives.
3) Why is it that taller men who are jerks and/or insecure do not have a special, nasty label?
4) It appears you (and many women) believe that most anything a short guy does to improve himself, is SPECIFICALLY to compensate, which in turn is taken as a negative, whether it’s true or not.
5) Even IF it is true, why stigmatize short men for it, as American society seems to do? In the same vein, why is it okay for a taller man to stay in-shape, have a good career, further his intellectual endeavors, and generally try to be an outstanding individual, without being stigmatized? A tall guy doesn’t get labeled with a “dictator complex”, does he?
6) How is the trait of being short different from any other neutral trait? If a woman doesn’t want to date a short guy, or a guy of certain ethnicity due to lack of physical attraction, that is one thing. However, to actively discourage other women via social belittlement, is just vile.
It’s a “damned if you do or don’t” situation for a short man. They cannot be too aggressive, or else they get to play “blame the victim for defending himself”; they are not allowed to succeed without being stigmatized; they cannot date anyone of decent value, without (at least) occasional derision from the public, if not friends and acquaintances. And we’re only talking about dating, thus far, not the societal discriminations that lead to bullying, lower pay, and ultimately marginalization of such men.
Chris says
I don’t find short women sexy…anything less than 5ft 5 just doesn’t appeal to me….It’s not just women who look at height, men like tall women too. A friend of mine who was dating a girl told me that one thing he didn’t like about his girlfriend was that she was short (5ft 4) and he was 6 ft 1. Sorry but men like height too.
Karl R says
Average Height, U.S. Men: 5’9″
Average Height, U.S. Women: 5’4″
Regarding the “Napoleon Complex”:
If I was six inches shorter, people would probably claim that I have a Napoleon complex. I’m extroverted. I’m a show-off. If anyone ever accuses me of being modest, I’ll be acquitted due to a lack of evidence.
Short men are just as capable of being show-offs, immodest, belligerent, ostentatious or downright jackasses as taller men. But if a short man has those traits, it’s evidence that he has a “Napoleon complex”. A man’s not a jackass because he’s short. He’s a jackass because he’s a jackass. Leave the rest of the short men out of it.
Cat5 said: (#32)
“the height difference was just too awkward. I don’t mind an inch or two, but 9”³ is just too much.”
I’m married to a woman who is at least 10″ shorter than me. I’ve dated a woman who was at least 12″ shorter than me. Why is the height difference more awkward for you than it is for me? The awkwardness is psychological, not physiological.
I haven’t met any women who were 9″ (or 12″) taller than me, so I can’t really compare in that direction. Any woman that tall is going to find doorways and ceiling fans awkward to deal with. My height should probably be the least of her concerns.
Cat5 said: (#32)
“So it’s not just women who have an issue with height. Men have their own also.”
Let me draw an analogy to age. I realized I could expand my dating pool by including women who were older than me. Most of the women who were 8+ years older than me had an issue with dating a man that much younger than them. That meant I was only adding the minority of women who didn’t have an issue with it.
But if I refused to date women that much older than me (and justified it by pointing out that most of those women didn’t want to date men that much younger), I wouldn’t be married to my wife.
Joe said: (#11)
“Evan is here not to point out the ways men can change their dating perspectives to find love—he’s here to point out how women can change their dating perspectives to find love.”
That’s not true. Evan points out how you can change your dating perspectives to find love. Everything Evan says about changing perspectives applies to men and women.
The majority of Evan’s readers and clients and readers are women, so he more frequently addresses their issues. But if he’s addressing a man’s issues, he’s not telling the man how women need to change their perspective.
Sparkling Emerald says
Since I am only 5’3″ , the height thing really is moot. I don’t care about height, and I used to rag on my gf’s who did, but if it comes down to what you are attracted to, you can’t force yourself to feel something you don’t. If a woman is rejecting men based on height because she’s worried about “appearances”, then I’d say her height requirement is silly, but honestly, if you aren’t attracted to someone, why waste anyone’s time ?
I know my dating pool is shrunk because I am an a-cup. I think boob size is totally irrelevant in long term relationships, at 80 years of age, big boobs will likely be sagging around her waist anyway. But I accept that most men on the planet won’t be attracted to me for one reason or another, my little itty-bitty cup size included. “T” men will reject me, “A” men will adore me, because my “A” is pretty darn cute. Some men are attracted to blondes, so I’m out of their dating pool, but men who are into redheads think I’m pretty cute.
I can’t really put my finger on what type of man I am attracted to. I know height doesn’t figure in at all. I know I am mostly focused on the face,( and strong nice toned arms 🙂 ) and although I couldn’t tell you why, it’s either a face I could love or not. I know it when I see it. Some men who are basically attractive, I am not attracted to, and I have been attracted to men with “interesting” but not necessarily attractive faces. I am open to men with a few extra pounds, I don’t mind bald, I couldn’t care less about height. I am rarely attracted to men outside of my race (but it has happened a few times), so on my profile I put “no preference” under race. A good clear, close up of the face, will tell me if the attraction is a “yes”, “maybe” or “no”. I have a big age range in my profile and have left out things like income and height. The main thing I am looking for in a relationship is compatibility, someone who treats me like a queen (and I will treat him like a King), some shared interests, shared values, and chemistry. The chemistry doesn’t have to be white hot, but there has to be SOME. Some women just KNOW they couldn’t be attracted to a shorter guy, just like some guys KNOW their woman has to have big boobs. I think for ladies who are just worried about what other people will think, take that height requirement out of the equation, and see if anyone surprises you. I know I have sometimes been surprised by who I am attracted to and who I have not been attracted to. However, no matter how wildly attractive I find someone, if he doesn’t treat me right, I am GONE !
Cat5 says
Karl R @ #35 said: “Why is the height difference more awkward for you than it is for me?”
I don’t know Karl R. I’ve never dated a woman 12″ shorter than me. If I do, I’ll be happy to let you know if it was awkward. 🙂
But, seriously — are you being deliberately obtuse? I don’t have the first damn clue why it is awkward for me and not for you. Why would it matter if it wasn’t awkward for you? Am I supposed to slap myself on the forehead and say. “Doh! Since it wasn’t awkward for Karl R. I must be wrong,” and start dating men so much shorter than me that I feel awkward and uncomfortable because it doesn’t bother you Karl R.? That should make for a great relationship for me. Your question is nonsensical.
Scooter says
No, actually his question is meant for you to enact some introspection.
The reason it’s “awkward” for you, is probably due to heavy heavy social pressure; it’s so taboo to date a shorter man, in this society.
And you know what? If a given woman is not physically attracted to a given shorter man primarily due to height, then so be it. But you know what really sucks?
When a woman really like a shorter guy, but is afraid to date him due to the intense social backlash that may result. And this is where I have a huge issue.. why in the hell should anyone catch crap from friends, family, or strangers, just because her partner is a few inches shorter?
It’s absurd, and in my opinion, indicative of some very serious ills with regards to gender norms and hypocrisies, in this age.,
Morris says
I think it is perfectly fine to have a height requirement. As long as we understand that all of our requirements shrink the pool of eligible people.(Some more than others.) So if it’s working for you I don’t think you need to think about it much. But if it isn’t I think we all need to look at the list of requirements we have and really think hard about what is important in the long run.
jules says
My preference is that a man be taller than me, and at 5’4″ that is not much of a hurdle. The issue for me is always that men below a certain height are almost universally lying about it online, which I find a far bigger turn-off than their actual height.
TheForgottenOne says
I’m 5’7″ and I didn’t lie on my online dating profile. Of course I didn’t get a lot of interest from anybody. But then again for men online dating is a crap shoot anyway.
Bruno says
You are correct about guys lying. I like being my height and value factual truth. 5 ft. 8 in. EXACTLY. But funny how other guys my height are shorter than me.
TooSmart says
My approach is the same. I don’t want a man who is smaller than me and I am 5’5” so I am not asking for too much. But lying about height is pathetic. And it’s insulting my intelligence. I know how 5’8” looks. If on a date I notice that you are hardly as tall as I am then you are not 5’8”.
Girl in the Midwest says
I’m 5’4, and I don’t have strict requirements for guys’ height. I think for lots of women, height falls under “being attracted to him”. And so the advice that we give for how much importance to place on chemistry is also the advice for how much importance to place on height.
I just want to add thing that I don’t think has been mentioned. My friend is married to a man who is her height, 5’4. She loves him dearly and they have a great relationship. She recently had a baby girl, and confessed to me that she was relieved that when she found out it was a girl because “she would be worried for her child if it were a boy, since he’d have a disadvantage in dating and the workplace because she and her husband were short” (her words). I think it’s similar to how I hope how I won’t have a gay child, not at all because I’d love him/her less, but because he will have a harder time in life than if he were straight, everything else held equal. He might even be happier if he were gay (adversity builds character…?) but he’s life would probably be harder.
So for women who are very short, and wanting to have children with the guy, they might be more picky about height…? Maybe something evolutionary about this, like how men are just attracted to a certain waist hip ratio. Just a thought.
Eric says
Your friend clearly doesn’t know the science behind height. While some of it is genetic, the vast majority is nutrition. I don’t know any short guys that can’t trace their height to poor maternal nutrition, poor childhood nutrition, and/or drug abuse in adolescence. I’m 5’5″, my two brothers are over 6′. My parents are 5’2″ and 5’7″. Most of the men in my family are at least 5’10”-6′. I’m shorter because my mother was severely malnourished while carrying me and my early childhood was also a period of poor nutrition. My first brother was born 3 years later after my father had a decent job and was able to afford better food. I also had mediocre nutrition in my teen years due to school and work, but that’s another story entirely.
Tell them that if they want their children to be tall she needs to stay healthy and eat a lot of healthy food when pregnant, then feed their children well.
As mentioned, it’s a sign of poverty. It doesn’t mean a person will do poorly in life, but their prospects are grim socially and the lack of confidence that constant rejection causes will further reduce their chances of escaping it. I’m an exception, but women don’t see anything but “short”, and that leaves some of us with prospects that don’t match what we’ve worked to become. I’d rather be alone than with most women I have a shot at. Not because they’re tall or unattractive, but because they are unstable, annoying, irresponsible, or otherwise poor relationship material and have been rejected (or used, abused, and discarded – unable to do anything but take out their hate of men) by taller guys (that they then compare you to unfavorably for being short).
I feel for tall women, but they don’t have it anywhere near as bad as we do.
Richard says
As a 5’2″ male, finding women who are shorter than me is tough. I get the feeling many of them care about the height a lot, but I’m no mind reader. I rarely mention my height, but I find it true in general that people don’t understand the science behind height. Like you, all the men in my family are around or over 6 feet tall. I had asthma as a child and was given an adult dosage of steroids. When I went to a new doctor, he was shocked that my previous doctor did that. I was taken off the steroids, but it became clear that my growth was not progressing how they expected. I was originally projected to be 5’10”, but that number kept shrinking every year. I was also a fussy eater. My parents didn’t know any better. They wanted my asthma to go away and they assumed the doctor knew what he was doing.
I try not to let it bother me, but I would love to be 6 feet tall, even for a day, just to see how many more dates I would get.
Evan Marc Katz says
You’d get a lot: https://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/dating-tips-advice/dating-advice-for-short-men-life-is-unfair/
The InBetweener says
@ Starthrower68 #29
Um, that’s a pretty glib attitude to have. Just because you feel you have not been successful at weight loss, does not mean you are undatable. I look forward to reading your comments on this blog most of the time (although you don’t post as frequently as I’d like you to) and having that attitude does not fit into the picture I’ve painted of you.
As someone that is 66″ (according to my doctor) I’ve dated women taller and shorter than myself, as well as bigger and smaller than myself (weight wise). Only because I’m attracted to MOST type of women – always have been, regardless of height. I’VE always found height to be a non issue. The tallest I’ve dated – 5’9-5’10 for years with no issues at all. Here’s the kicker – 90% of the women I’ve dated have been the aggressors – approached me. How bout that? Guys are attracted to taller women, they might not always admit it.
Let’s take this for example: http://www.lucylawlessfanclub.com/duets/lucycarlyal.jpg
I’m about his height. If she was single, would I date Lucy Lawless? Damn right. With a passion. 🙂
K says
@36 and 37. I relate and understand. I’m slightly above average in height, but for most of my life I preferred much above average height men. My brother, my dad, my first love, my best friend, etc have all been over 6 feet tall. In my 30s I’m being more open-minded and flexible. Last year I took away height requirements and was not at all attracted to men below average height. So I went back to average height. I’m giving another shorter man a chance next week. I’d love to be attracted to more men, but I can’t force it. Likely I’ll have some height requirements (luckily for looks or whatever I have tons of 5’10 plus guys contacting me still). I try to open up and experiment on as many criteria as possible. But as I have learned from knowing myself and practicing dating taking this site’s advice as inspiration is best (not a rule). You can’t change everything about your wants (changing one is great!). From trial and error I know low ambition, low preference for education, and lack of curiosity about world isn’t going to work. Try/adjust is all I can advise. No matter what logical post one peron presents I’m not going o want to kiss a guy shorter than me. From my married friends I’ve seen them compromise on some things for sure, but generally most are with the kind of people they generally prefer.
Deborah says
At the risk of being attacked for not being open-minded as people think I SHOULD be, I agree with Morris#38 and Laine#28 – I can’t help who I am attracted to. At 5’2″, I’m also not offended by Chris#34’s comments about a gal like myself just not being sexy in his eyes – I respect his wishes, I’m not here to convince him that gals my size can be sexy, I’m not here to convince him that MY opinion is the same opinion he needs to have right now or else he’s doomed. That being said, I played out my earlier online dating days by meeting a slew of men 5’5″, 5’6″, 5’7″, gave them a chance, went on a few dates – I have to admit, when a few of them stood up, and I was wearing my boots, I was disppointed. For me, it’s a protection thing – call me Cave Woman, but I like my man to be larger than myself so that I feel safe and protected in a public place. It’s basically the same reason why I prefer a larger, beefier guy over a thin build. Perhaps it’s simply the short men that chose me – I found them being “yes” men, where they agreed with everything I said, did not take their own stance…they were more attracted to me than I was to them. In the end, I did something unusual I’m sure, I lied about my height and added a few inches so as to deter the 5’2-5’6″ population, and it hasn’t stopped some. That doesn’t go without saying that if I was attracted to the guy, my preferences would go out the window, and I would still date him despite the height. Currently, I am seeing a guy 6′, one 5’9″, and one 5’8″, so I’m really not feeling the pain of being a little picky at this time. If none of these men work out, and I go thru a dry spell, I’ll obviously adjust my preference.
Jenna says
Hmm .. one thing I don’t understand is people who lack a certain quality, yet demand their partner have it. I think wanting a rough equal is very valid unless you are an outlier in some area, and at that point you have to be more flexible about dating a little down in that area. So to me it’s outrageous if a short woman wants a 6 foot man, it’s reasonable for a woman to want a man at least her own height or an inch or two taller if she’s of relatively average height, and those women who are 5″10 or 6 feet may have to be more flexible in dating someone an inch or two shorter. My own mother is 5″11 and married a 5″9 man.
What seems more broadly relevant in this whole issue than specific, isolated traits – height, hair color – is overall attractiveness. If you are an attractive, in shape woman, it’s reasonable to seek out someone who is the same. If you’re an average looking woman, it is not as reasonable to insist on an attractive man. Conversely, if you’re a woman who’s a 9 or 10, it may be hard to find a guy who’s a 9 or 10 who’s really compatible – now you’re more of an outlier – so you may want to look for someone simply attractive but not super hot. Height can figure into that, though it’s not as much of a non-negotiable for me as it is for some here.
But overall, I’ve met with nothing but disaster when I ended up dating people who were too far apart from me in attractiveness.
JB says
I’m not going to lie as a guy who’s 5’10” my Match search caps out at 5’8″ but I rarely email any over 5’7″because I know it’s basically a waste of time. No women over 5’7″ rarely or ever initiate contact with me either. I would prefer a woman 5’6″ or shorter but nothing’s etched in stone. I’ve been with enough women to know who I physically feel more comfortable with. It’s the women that have to wear high heels and are only too happy to put in their profile ” I’m 5’7″ but in heels which I wear all time I’m 5’10” so you have to be at least 6′ “bla bla bla that aggravate us. The world is the way it is everyone’s attracted to what they’re attracted to. You can tell them to have an open mind but sadly in the end most people would rather be alone than be with someone they don’t find physically attractive for whatever reason.
Mark says
This is my FAVORITE topic!!!
And the MOST irritating aspect of online dating.
I’ve seen everything from “Please be at least 6′ tall” ,
“Please be at least 6′ tall because I need to feel safe with my man”.
And mind you a lot of these women are less than 5′ 8″ ??? WTF?
I’m 5′ 8″ – REALLY???? 4 inches? That’s how you make your initial determination? Based on ONE criteria as to whether you’ll EVEN talk to someone?
If I wrote MY profile and said “Please be Skinny and have huge boobs!”
Do you know how much CRAP I would get?
Interestingly – both these things CAN be changed, but I cant’ change my height.
See I told you this was my favorite topic.
By the way – when I read things like this it already tells me all I need to know about the woman.
You’ve just filtered yourself. Another great aspect of online dating. Sometimes people save you the trouble and filter themselves.
Peace out!!!
And women say men are shallow??? REALLY???
Em says
Thank you for posting this article, EMK! I’m a 5’9” woman who has always dated taller men, but recently met a guy who is a few inches shorter than I am, and he’s smart, cute, kind, etc….and my knee-jerk reaction was to not give him a chance because of our height difference. But then I realized that my discomfort was really based on what I thought it would look like if we walked down the street together…and that that was silly, because if we are happy, who cares? I decided to be more open-minded and I’m so glad I did, because this guy is great and a real catch! It’s not to say that tall women must go out with men who are shorter than they are if they aren’t feeling an attraction, but after a few dates I realized I was actually very attracted to this guy and I would have missed out on someone truly wonderful had I not given it a shot.
Karl R says
Cat5 asked: (#37)
“But, seriously – are you being deliberately obtuse?”
Are you?
If you look carefully, you’ll notice that I answered my own question in the following sentence.
Now it would be appropriate for you to slap yourself in the forehead and say “Doh!”
Sparkling Emerald said: (#36)
“I don’t care about height, and I used to rag on my gf’s who did, but if it comes down to what you are attracted to, you can’t force yourself to feel something you don’t.”
I’m not attracted to most women who are in their late 50s, but I find my wife attractive. I’m not attracted to most women who are obese, but I’ve met a few exceptions. I’m not into the bleach blond look, but I’ve met a few women who I’d make an exception for.
If I don’t find someone attractive, that’s the situation. But I’ve never looked at a woman and thought, “She’s attractive … but her breasts are too small.” Either she’s attractive or she’s not. I’m not going to talk myself out of finding her attractive by focusing on one feature.
Deborah said: (#43)
“For me, it’s a protection thing — call me Cave Woman, but I like my man to be larger than myself so that I feel safe and protected in a public place.”
And that’s why the president’s protective detail is made up of former NFL linebackers.
Oh wait … it’s not. It’s made up of crack shots who wear body armor.
Buy a gun. Learn how to use it well. Get a concealed carry permit (or whatever permit is appropriate where you live). Wear Kevlar whenever the weather permits. Not only will you be far safer than you would with a large boyfriend around, you will also be just as safe when he’s not around.
Or you could delude yourself into thinking that tall men are bulletproof. Let me know how well that works in an actual emergency.
Greg says
Well.. i am 6 ft 2 in… and in ‘shoes’ i guess i approach 6 ft 3 in. Obviously, I never have had a problem with being ‘short’. However, m.y taste tend to be taller.. My ex was 5ft 6′ and recently dated a woman who was 5’1”and found her too short and petite. It felt I was dating a jr hr girl. My current girlfriend is 5’11” and 150 lbs and visually slender… though some would say she is an ‘amazon’ type of woman.
A good friend of mine (woman) told me “honey, we all the same height in bed’ … She had a point and imagination, charm and passion can all be factors on attraction and potential for long term relationship.
Even being tall, 50% woman I have tend (within 3 weeks) have a makeover plan: teeth, haircut, furniture, bags under the eyes (I am 57). I do think its in their DNA to ‘improve’ their man; typically I have acknowledge what they think and feedback is a gift. Then in a teasing mode, I suggest something similar to their ideas (butt lift, lose 10 lbs, cooking skills, show more cleavage,etc). Some get it, most don’t and I have moved on from them.
I do listen, though, as after 27 yrs of marriage, my game does need to be updated. I just dont like to hear it when we have pillow talk or she is between my legs , trying to have a ‘conversation’ as she feel she has my undivided attention. LOL I try not to take it too seriously as the battle of sexes have been going on for generations. How you pivot and leverage is the talent I am refining.
Goldie says
Guys, it’s not about being open-minded or closed-minded. It is about missing out on quality people because we are evaluating them using the wrong metrics, so to speak.
Let me give you an analogy. Say you need a new car. You can look at the car’s reliability, gas mileage, cost of maintenance, how the car will perform in the conditions that you’re going to use it in, will the car hold as many people/cargo as you need it to hold, etc. Or you can look for a pink car with heated seats, because hey, you can’t help what you like and you like the color pink and warm seats. Now which of those two strategies is more likely to result in you buying a quality car, that will last you a long time without breaking down? Notice, I’m not saying you won’t be able to find a pink car with heated seats, or that there isn’t a chance that a pink car with heated seats will also happen to be a reliable car with good gas mileage. I’m just saying that you’re more likely to get the important things if you look for the important things first. The rest is optional.
(Ding Ding Ding: we have a winner! – EMK)
starthrower68 says
InBetweener I don’t fight the system I just go with it. 🙂
Ellen (Rebekah) aka redheadinDixie says
There is a dating website for women interested in tall men only. Check it out. lol
I am 5’6″ and for many years gravitated towards average height men, even shorter men, ’cause the men in my family tend to be short. I think it is what you’re used to maybe. And the celebrities I had the biggest crushes on as a teen were short men like Harvey Keitel.
And when younger I found myself avoiding super tall men ’cause I felt subconciously I think that he could do major damage if we fought physically.
I also found, like Zina, when a teen and dating that shorter men just tried harder to compensate. They were uniformly almost more attentive, fun, etc.
Then when I started online dating a few years back I dated a few tall men and found myself getting turned on by it. I do like the height differential- a lot! It’s very primal like a poster related. And like another poster, chubbiness puts me off as well…..
Lia says
I am 5’ 5 1/2” tall. I can’t say that I have ever dated anyone shorter than me but I have definitely been attracted to shorter guys. When I was in high school there was a guy who was about 5’ 2”. He wrote in my yearbook, “I don’t know why you and your friends are so nice to me.” Really? I thought, “Geez buddy, get a mirror.” We all had a crush on him. (Even my younger sister remembers him and believe me high school was a long time ago.)
I feel fortunate because I actually have a strong preference for men UNDER 6’ tall. I find the body proportions of men under six foot, generally speaking, to be more aesthetically pleasing to me. I also have a very strong preference for men within a few inches of my hight. In my opinion bodies line up better for… everything, if there is not a big hight discrepancy. (This does not mean I would not date a guy over 6’.)
I have a niece who is 6’2” and a very confident, beautiful woman. For several years she dated and lived with a guy who was 5’10”. I will tell you that after spending a little time with them you no longer noticed the hight difference. (Even when she was wearing heels.) Because they were so well matched.
Oh and that guy from high school… I saw him at the mall a couple of years after we had graduated and he was with a girl taller than me. It was obvious that they had no problem with her being taller.
@ Karl R # 35
Thank you for addressing that ridiculous “Napoleon Complex” bullsh*t.
kiesh says
Height falls under physical attraction. People who don’t want to date obese people don’t want to do so because they aren’t attracted to them. Lets not pretend that it’s about health. I’m just not physically attracted to 5’7 and under men. 5’8 is pushing it. ALL of our preferences shrink our eligible pool. So what? Who are these women that can turn physical attraction on and off like a switch just to have more options?
Lia says
@ Kiesha #54
My sister once gave me a jar of peperoncini. A few days later she asked if I had tried them. I told her no, I said I didn’t like them. She asked if I had ever had them. I had to admit that I hadn’t. She told me to try them. I was positive that I would hate them. Turns out I loved them.
Now before you jump on me for comparing the two (attraction to men and what I like to eat… hmmm…) I am just saying that maybe there is a possibility that we don’t know ourselves as much as we think we do. Maybe the that’s-just-the-way-I-am gets in the way of moving forward in life.
No one wants you to date someone that you have no attraction to. But what if we didn’t look for that instantaneous knee jerk reaction to a set-in-stone criteria. What if we didn’t think we knew everything about how it “is” and were just open to discovering what might be.
Maybe you would find that attraction can grow while getting to know someone outside your height requirements. Maybe the guy that is best for me does not have my same spiritual path. We all have areas where we have been unwilling to bend in the past and we defend these criteria vehemently. But to what purpose? If we are still single and alone then how is this serving us.
I think it would be so funny if you let go of your height requirements, dated men who were shorter than you normally would, found that you liked them, and then one day the 6’3” love of your life shows up simply because you aren’t desperately hanging onto that requirement.
cat says
I agree with Kiesh (54)…”Who are these women that can turn physical attraction on and off like a switch just to have more options?”
Ruby says
Hasn’t the option of online dating influenced our preferences quite a bit? Prior to online dating and personals ads, you mostly met people IRL. If I thought a 5’8″ man was attractive, he was attractive. I wouldn’t have thought, “Hmmm, here’s a profile of this other guy who is 6’2″, maybe he is more manly.” In fact, I didn’t really think about the shorter man being too short if I was attracted to him. I also wonder how much we are influenced by our fathers; mine was on the short side, so maybe that’s another reason why I’ve been open to shorter men, despite being taller myself? The men in my family have had heights ranging from 5’6″ to 6’4″, similar to the men I’ve dated.
nathan says
Physical attraction and the willingness to act upon it are, at least in part, shaped by social conditioning. We’d like to act otherwise, but it’s just not the case. Until recent decades in the US, dating across racial lines was either taboo or frowned upon. Same is true for same-sex attraction. The standards of female beauty, for example, were set by white men, who placed a certain subset of white women before the general public as “beautiful.” At times, such as the late 18th and early 19th century, it was the curvy woman who today is often considered “fat.” Other times, it was the ultra thin woman. Regardless, what you saw were men of the generation conforming, at least to some extent, to the standards put forth. Two hundred years ago, a thin woman was considered sickly and unattractive, even if she was actually quite healthy and good looking. The opposite is more the case today, as larger women often struggle solely because of their weight and body structure.
The whole tall man thing is, in my view, tied to men as being protectors and providers. That’s a story fed to us for generations, until it became accepted as the norm, even though other societies throughout history have had other arrangements, and other features deemed “attractive.” So, while I wouldn’t expect people to change their attraction per se, it’s not fixed and shouldn’t be viewed as such. Preferences are a choice. Even if there is a biological element to it, it’s still a choice. Human’s override biological desires all the time.
I agree with Ruby that online dating has heightened this issue (pun intended 🙂 In one case, I was told point blank that being 5′ 11″ instead of 6′ was the reason she rejected me. We’d never met. Only exchanged two e-mails. What the hell does one inch matter? Even if she was lying to me about the reason, the fact that she even brought that up demonstrated some hyper height consciousness on her part. And no doubt, some men are doing the same with taller women. They’ve bought into the idea that they’re not “manly” enough – whatever that means – unless they tower over their partner.
In the end, I think more flexibility on minor traits like this is best. Cut your dating pool on things that really matter in the long run.
Helen says
Vanessa #2 had it right from the start, and I would have made that point myself if she hadn’t already done so. Both the Jezebel article and Evan’s article are written implicitly as though it were purely the women’s preferences that led to this height differential in married couples. In reality, it is probably more the MEN’s preferences that drive this phenomenon; because men do most of the proposing after all.
Karl R #35 wrote: “I’m married to a woman who is at least 10”³ shorter than me. I’ve dated a woman who was at least 12”³ shorter than me. Why is the height difference more awkward for you than it is for me?”
Um, Karl… the simple answer is that you don’t have breasts. 😉 It is genuinely awkward to be walking around with someone whose mouth level is right around your breasts. Even if they’re KIDS. I’ll leave it at that.
kofybean says
“because men do most of the proposing after all.”
How do you skip the dating process and go straight to marriage? How does a short guy propose to a girl who won’t even date him? Your logic doesn’t make sense.
A says
I’d just like to add, my brother is 5’6″ and seems to be passed up quite a bit by women his age (27), he does great with the mid-30’s crowd, however. Maybe expectations have lowered and superficiality decreased by that point?
Anyway, my point is, he’s AWESOME. Funny, smart, driven, manly, can fix anything, and has a great job. It really is a shame he gets passed on because he’s such a down to earth, easy guy to get along with. A friend of mine he once dated told me is was so much fun in bed, too.
I get wanting a tall man, I really do. Dating a tall/big dude comes with a certain amount of perceived status in our culture. But that’s all it is, it means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things.
Stick to height requirements if you like, but there is NO DOUBT you are passing up some really good men. If you think you can’t be attracted to someone less than a certain height, and I’ll probably get reemed for this, I believe you are dead wrong and really need to re-evaluate your priorities in finding a good man.
Put it this way, if your best friend ended up with a short guy and was the happiest you’d ever seen her- don’t tell me you wouldn’t want what she had- regardless of the dudes height.
avery_t says
you seem smart. Why does status matter? Men do not really care about status. We care what status gets us, by which I mean more sex with more attractive women. But status in itself doesn’t interest us (unless it translates to more sex). Do women like status for its own sake? For men, status has utility (sex, money), but no real intrinsic value.
So, from a guy’s vantage, if a woman is with a short guy whom she loves totally but whose height may lower her status, it doesn’t matter, because she has the guy she loves/wants. This is a man’s perspective, because the whole purpose of having status is to get the girl. Status is almost a non-concept. If you ask a man what he sees in his imagination when you say the word “status” (in terms of words association) he probably sees himself with a gorgeous woman. In this way, the words “status” and “sex” are almost synonyms. Status is a tool to get sex. Thus, if you ALREADY have the sex/mate you want, there’s no real reason to pursue or care about status.
Goldie says
# 54, 56 ”Who are these women that can turn physical attraction on and off like a switch just to have more options?”
Oh you know, your usual desperate bunch that’ll throw themselves at anyone… haha not. Seriously though, I’m guessing they are the women who develop a physical attraction as they get to know a man better, based on his character, brain and personality, provided, of course, that he is not totally physically repulsive (which he probably wouldn’t be, as with his character, brain, and personality he’d know how to present himself and take care of himself).
Ruby – agree 100%. When I first started dating, in the 80s, you didn’t approach a guy with a measuring tape to see if he was within your height requirements. You met him IRL, you talked, you did things together, and decided whether you liked him or not. As long as you didn’t have to bend over to talk to him, you didn’t worry much about what his exact height was. It is so different with online dating, even though we all know half of those numbers are inflated.
Evan – aw, shucks *blushes*
Emily says
What about the other way around? I’m 5’11 and find that a lot of dudes won’t date a taller woman. Who the hell cares? If you make me laugh, your height is a moot point.
Dora says
Kari R – words like “stupid” are not appropriate at all here. Is not stupid to hold on for something you believe in. And I do believe that shorter than me men are simply not nice to be with- I do not feel protected and sheltered with him. When we are on the street and he wants to hug me…but in fact he can not even reach my shoulders-iuykkk… Or how about if he wants /or me/ to kiss spontaneously..- he will have to ask me or pull me down to his level- horrible.. and is not about how it looks for others,is about how it feel for me. And it feels not good at all. No matter how much I try to forget about hat and focus on some good in him..
And Yuri – easy to talk when your man is taller than you. Way to easy to talk. I would love to hear what would you say if the same man was short and you looked at him from above..
And I will tell you all something from nature and animals. In fact, a very respectful dating coach and author was relating to Horses for comparison anyway.. So, I have those two awsome friesian stallions- one is huge- 180 cm tall,the other is short 155cm. I put that mare who is tiny and compact with…of course – the small 155cm stallion,in a yard to do the mating. At the same time the big guy is 15 m away behind electric fence and keep “talking” to them 2 in the yard.. This mare kicked the hell out of the small stallion, he was young and keen,but she indimidated him to max. At the end I didn’t have a choice, I put her with the big boy and… she stood there like a trooper,her legs bending under his weight,but she was taking it. she fell pregnant of course after that too. I observe this behiviour all the time…- have miniature stallion- his little mini mares hate him,he runs away from them and stick’s with the big black mares. The mini mares though go and stay next to the above mentioned huge stallion.
So,Evan and everybody, no matter how much we scratch our tongues here and call each other ugly names like – shallow or stupid..bla,bla…- SIZE MATTERS,BIG TIME. Always did in nature with the animals and will always do.
Kevin says
People often say this preference for tall men goes back to caveman times when supposedly the tallest men were the best providers. How does being tall make you a better provider? Back in caveman times I would think being tall was more of a liability than an asset. You need to consume more resources to stay healthy and you’re also a bigger target for predators. Being tall doesn’t make you the fastest nor the strongest. The best providers back in those days were those most able to adapt, something that has WAY more to do with intelligence and physical/mental strength than height. Yet there are plenty of smart, short men with great jobs who can’t get a date. There are plenty of physically strong short and average height guys who are overlooked in favor of a tall, lanky guy. I have no problem with preferences but I really don’t buy into the theory of taller equals better protector/provider.
Scooter says
You know Dora, I could take apart your post, point-by-point, but I can see that you borderline hate short men, just for being short.
Your appeal to nature fallacy is easily dismissed. I’ll just ask you this.. do you believe humans have evolved both intellectually and socially? If not.. then why do we now deem rape and pillage as horrific? How about disemboweling? Why do we now view any number of emotional/psychological transgressions against individuals to be “wrong”? You think the “cavemen” had the same mentality and spirituality? The same awareness to b e empathetic? I don’t think so.. and neither do you.
You view short men as “lesser” beings, and you’re not the only woman. This is simply wrong, and needs to be overcome. I’m not just talking about heightism as pertains to its effect in the dating realm.
Lisa says
I’m just going to be blunt and say I’m not physically or sexually attracted to short men. Yes I am 5’1 and date men over 6′. I’ve dated quite a few short men to try to overcome this “bias” that you speak of and I can’t and I’m sorry. I’m sorry that makes you angry and I’m sorry you think that’s unfair it probably is. But lots of things are. It sort of in the same sense that I hate the taste of asparagus or mushrooms and don’t know why. Or you are not attracted to certain types of women and are to others it just is. Instead of focusing on that though I would focus on all the women that want to date you not the ones that don’t.
John says
Jenna @12,
Height isn’t a huge issue for me, but one thing that irritates me is men who don’t work out regularly. If I’m thin and work out five times a week, why do I have to settle for a flabby guy or a guy with no muscles?
As a guy who works out regularly and has a good phjysique, I applaud your thinking. So many people don’t realize (usually the ones who dont work out or the ones who do work out with lousy results) that being fit is a lifestyle. Not an activity. Those same folks also have a silly assumption that if you are in shape and go to a gym that you are a “gym rat” and “live there all the time”. And that is so not true. If you work out 4x a week for an hour each time, thats way less time than most people watch TV or surf the net. And if someone can’t find 4 hours a week to stay fit to look good, then you surely do have a right to not be attracted to them. I am sure I will get slammed so watch my back on this one.
As for the height thing, this is music to my ears. I am 5’9″ and never had a shortage of women to date. There are many women that have no problem with 5’9″. The ones that require 6 feet, I just chalk it up to nothng I can do about it. But I do feel bad for the shorter guys because they do get ruled out quickly and they cant do anything about it.
Angie says
I’m just going to throw this in: I’ve met some very attractive shorter men, but there is a sect of short men who can also be aggressive towards shorter women. I’m 5’3 (on the tall end of short), but my best friend is 5’0. I recall many evenings out in the bar where we’ve had short men circling us and looking for opportunities to cut in. Also, I have a huge responsiveness on online dating from men who claim to be 5’6-5’7.
As much as I want to agree that there are some picky women, there is a sect of short men who are very aggressive about marking their territory. (#shortgirlproblems :-P)
On the other hand, I have many male cousins/uncles/brother and friends who are in the 5’6-5’7 category and do just fine. I don’t even notice that some of them are “small” b/c they are fairly sturdy in their build. I think that attractiveness is based on coolness and confidence, and I think that while a stigma exists, buying into it perpetuates other unattractive qualities in short men and probably a lot of women.
I don’t know too many men who are smaller than me, but I have quite a few tall female friends – 5’7-5’10 – who have found happy relationships with men of the same height as me. I don’t think I would be happy with a “my size” guy, though… I weigh 115.
Scooter says
And taller men don’t act this way? Or are you just recognizing the short men who do this, as a result of your own ingrained prejudice?
Seriously.. this is ridiculous. It is wrong to pick out some negative trait or behavior in one group of individuals (who also happen to be the minority), and then stigmatize them, when in fact the same behaviors run in the entire population.
You can’t blame the victim. You can’t expect short men to be perfect all the time, and even if they are, then stigmatize them for “compensating”. This is disgusting, vile, deeply indoctrinated thinking, in our society.
John says
Sparkling Emerald @36
I know my dating pool is shrunk because I am an a-cup.
Don’t fret. Boob size is overrated. I have no problem with “a” cups at all. Just as long as they are sensitive. Thats all that counts. If I see a girl with big fake boobs, the first thought in my mind (well maybe the second thought) is “would she even know if I was playing with them?”
Karl R says
Helen said: (#59)
“Karl… the simple answer is that you don’t have breasts. 🙂 It is genuinely awkward to be walking around with someone whose mouth level is right around your breasts.”
I have a penis and a pair of buttocks. When I stand on the bus and train, everyone who is sitting down has their mouth at or near the level of my penis and arse.
In 25 years of riding the bus and train, I have never had a person begin engaging in an act of fellatio or anallingus just because their mouth happened to be at the same level. Not one person has made an attempt. Not one person has made a suggestive comment.
What kind of creeps are you walking around with where they’re causing some issue? Maybe the problem isn’t the height of the person but the quality of their character.
And if it’s not their actions that are making things awkward, you are really uptight. Uptight people limit their options, because they’re not particularly fun to be around. It’s worth making some effort to fix that flaw.
kiesh and cat asked: (#54 & 56)
“Who are these women that can turn physical attraction on and off like a switch just to have more options?”
Who are the people who can turn their physical conditioning on like a switch in order to run a marathon? Who are the people who can turn their appetite off like a switch in order to lose 40 pounds? Who are the people who can turn their brain on like a switch in order to pass the bar exam?
Every single one of those takes time and effort. If you put some time and effort into changing the way you see people, you can find more people attractive.
But in each example above, it’s easier to throw up your hands and cry, “It’s not possible,” rather than put in the time and effort to actually accomplish something. The doesn’t change the fact that lots of people have already proven that it is possible.
Peter says
@ Jenna 12 @ John 64
Working out does not guarantee thinness but otherwise I agree with you. Even as an international (British home internationals so US state) athlete I never got below a 24 BMI. Big and ugly is big and ugly.
I agree with the lifestyle issue. Thin people who don’t work out are not that way because of health consciousness.
I don’t see many short men in the gym. Intimidating environment?
K says
@John I don’t knock you, you like fit. That’s totally fine. I’m usually the spin/pilates fairly fit type. Currently less due to an injury, but as size 4 I tend to still do okay with most fit guys (maybe not the ones that want super fit). I like taller. I do date 5’9, but my pref as I have talked about above is taller b/c I find it sexier. But luckily being fit is not a criteria for me. I may not date the 5’7 guy, but I will date the out of shape guy, the guy with a little beer belly etc. Most of my gfs are opposite. So I think as long as we don’t need perfection in every area we have a shot:).
Helen says
Karl R: I’m not hanging out with creeps. And what happened to you? You’re the one acting uptight here, judgmental and humorless with these comments, in addition to accusing others of stupidity and having flaws they need to fix without knowing any of us.
More relevant to this entry: In another post, I had posited that height in men is a proxy for something else, which is income. Several studies have shown that taller men earn more money than shorter men, and that salary increases on average with every additional unit of height. It’s largely men that set salaries for men in today’s world (that will change soon), so one could argue that men have a height bias as well directed toward their own sex. Meanwhile, if women prefer men with more resources, then it stands to reason that they will seek taller men, who in society typically have more resources.
Kevin says
I’m gonna go ahead and sort of disagree. I think we’re often conditioned to believe taller men are smarter, stronger, better leaders, more honest, more caring, richer, etc and so when many women see a tall guy they subconsciously associate all these traits with his height and thus with him.
Yes, on average a taller man might make more money per year per inch (I think the study was only for C level execs) but a 6’3″ high school teacher will still probably make less than a 5’2″ financial advisor. Who will get more attraction from women? Probably the teacher.
Angie says
@ Karl
“I have a penis and a pair of buttocks. When I stand on the bus and train,everyone who is sitting down has their mouth at or near the level of my penis and arse.”
That’s not a fair comparison. Women aren’t turned on by this stuff. Have you ever seen a group of women spy a man in a speedo on the beach? It’s usually received with laughter or averting their gaze. Men will happily stare at women’s chests whether they are on display or not.
I’m also reminded of a memory from working in retail. Anytime one of our male coworkers asked for our opinion on his look, as long as he looked sharp, put together, etc, all the female employees would say “You look great”. When male coworkers were assessing the females trying on clothes, they’d say “Sure, it’s not bad, but it’s not really doing anything for you” (implication: showing off t&a) and would suggest something more curve-enhancing or showy, even if you told them “It has to be conservative. It’s for the office/job interview/hanging out with parents, not the club”. Male minds think differently.
I don’t necessarily think any of this buys into the whole height argument, but I’d believe a tall, busty woman when she says her breasts are at eye level with shorter men.
Morris says
I’m kind of surprised at the number of posts. It’s just a preference. I totally understand how a woman would find a taller man attractive. There is something masculine about being tall. Men, don’t you find a woman with curves attractive? There’s something about breasts/hips/butt that makes a woman seem more feminine right? But let’s get real. In the long run being tall isn’t going to matter all that much. Just like those curves won’t matter all that much in the long run either. Heck there are disadvantages to being tall as you get older just as age takes a toll on curves.
If a woman would rather be single than be with a great man that isn’t 6′ so what? As long as the woman doesn’t complain about a lack of good men and understands it’s her preferences that account for her dating options.
I think the issue with online dating is real though. When people meet naturally a lot of the ‘preferences’ go out the window. ‘Opposites attract’ doesn’t happen in the online dating world right?
Scooter says
No, it’s not “just a preference”, for most women. It’s an absolute requirement that trumps every other feature of a man. Furthermore, it is not comparable to a woman’s breast size; in brief, most men won’t discount an attractive woman if she has smaller breasts. As another said in here, “attractive is attractive”, regardless of one feature.
Women have been conditioned to really dislike shorter men, in our society. There are so many studies and anecdotal pieces of evidence to back this up. If you want just one: Google “Put a face to the hate”.
Nicole says
Totally off topic but I feel like the kid in the picture looks like a younger version of Evan…
Morris says
After posting I realized ‘opposites attract’ can very well happen online if two people happen to be looking for their opposites. What I meant was dating outside preferences doesn’t happen online.(Since we’re all filter based on our preferences.) But I think we’ve all experiences relationships that started offline that didn’t fit that mould.
Helen says
Nicole 73: interesting observation. I think the kid in the pic looks more girlish than Evan, like a cross between Evan and Anne Hathaway. If I were his mother, I’d tell him to cut his bangs…
Morris 72: agree with you completely, all parts. Each of us likes what he or she likes, and as long as he or she isn’t complaining, it’s not really anyone else’s business.
The InBetweener says
@ Starthrower68 #51
Oh No! You can’t be serious! Not cool. 🙁
Girl in the Midwest says
I agree with Morris @72. If a girl is complaining about her dating options, then one of the pieces of advice would be to date men who were shorter, fatter, older, etc. Similar advice for a guy (date taller, fatter, older). I don’t see it as right or wrong, I just see it as being pragmatic or not (and in many cases, it’s not pragmatic). But each person has to decide what they are willing to give up in order to get height.
The thing I have to admit about height though, is that it’s unchangeable. And that really sucks. 🙁 I mean, weight isn’t always 100% within in one’s control, but it is controllable up to a degree. So it seems like if a woman wants to make herself more physically attractive, she has more options. Make up, lose weight, better clothes, etc. But so much of male physical attractiveness is height, which is unchangeable.
Some other guy says
I’m 6′ 2.5″ tall, and my former spouse was 4’11” (that’s a 15′ 5″ difference for the math challenged); I can’t remember a time when it served as a even a remote impediment, and in fact generated a lot of “Aww, so cute” responses. It never once even remotely got in the way of the relationship – it just never came up unless she needed me to reach for something from a higher shelf. So cute 🙂
But I’m a guy who finds tall girls particularly attractive – I dream of 5’10” Angie Harmon – but have always been clear that height is eclipsed by so many other things that it isn’t even on the list of things that matter to me (when I had a Yahoo! Personals profile, I selected no preference for height).
I guess I’m lucky that at least one irrelevant factor doesn’t matter to me.
Sparkling Emerald says
Karl R – Why the hostile response ? I said that I DON’T have a problem with height. I said I used to rag on my gf’s who did, but now I have backed off. Are you really so insecure about women having different opinions than you, that you can’t accept a woman who SHARES your opinion about height but ALLOWS other women to have theirs ? Do you really expect me to start re-ragging on my gf’s because they don’t share YOUR opinion.
I once had a friend who ragged on me, because I don’t date smokers. She said I was being ridiculous to “base a relationship” on weather or not a person smoked. It didn’t feel nice to have a gf try to dictate what I “should” date, and to make me wrong for it. So I stopped telling my gf’s who they should be attracted to. Why does that evoke a hostile response from you ?
For the women who aren’t attracted to men based on height (I guess it’s OK for men to reject short women) , for all any of us know, they might be open to other characteristics that many other women reject. So there could be several women with approx the same size dating pool, but there are just different types of men in each pool. Maybe the the woman who likes men taller than her, doesn’t mind bald, or a few extra pounds, or a different race. The women who couldn’t care less about height, might only want to date within their race. I knew a black woman who said she was having trouble with dating, and she told me she was having a hard time finding a black man who want to get involved with a divorced single mom, as the percentage of black people in our area is very small. I asked her if she was open to the idea of dating men outside of her race, and she said no, she only wanted to date black men. I didn’t rag on her about it, or scold her for “shrinking her dating pool”. Why should ragging on women about their criteria be acceptable ?
Cat5 says
Karl R. @ 67 said: “I have a penis and a pair of buttocks. When I stand on the bus and train, everyone who is sitting down has their mouth at or near the level of my penis and arse.
In 25 years of riding the bus and train, I have never had a person begin engaging in an act of fellatio or anallingus just because their mouth happened to be at the same level. Not one person has made an attempt. Not one person has made a suggestive comment.”
Karl R. – You have got to be kidding me?! There you are being obtuse and nonsensical yet again. Comparing what a man goes through and what a woman goes through when riding the bus or train is comparing apples to oranges. Let me start by saying this — I have never yet had a man tell me how horrible it was that when he was pawed or groped while on a bus or train, or in a large crowd or on a dance floor (and not by the guy they are dancing with, but other guys on the dance floor), etc. But, virtually every woman I know from 12 to 85 has a story about it happening to them, usually on more than one occasion. Perhaps men don’t talk about it because it doesn’t happen to them or they like it, I don’t presume to know the answer to that question. But, most women don’t like having stranger in a crowd grab and touch them, and most women have had it happen to them more than once.
Secondly, if you ride the bus and train so much, you should have noticed the increase in both the notices posted about groping and how to report it, the presence of security cameras that are catching it on tape, and if authorities can identify the men doing it, they are being prosecuted. Do you think the ad campaigns and increased security measures implemented by law enforcement and transit agencies are only because women are imagining it, and it’s the types of creeps women are “walking around with?”
You cannot be that naive to believe what you said in response to Helen.
Karl R says
Helen said: (#70)
“You’re the one acting uptight here, judgmental and humorless with these comments, in addition to accusing others of stupidity”
I’m beginning to wonder whether a few of you are deliberately trying to come up with the stupidest possible excuse for your behavior. Is there a contest with a prize that I overlooked? There’s no rationality, no logic, no thought involved.
Helen said: (#70)
“More relevant to this entry: In another post, I had posited that height in men is a proxy for something else, which is income.”
On Wednesday I was approached by a panhandler (who I’ve run across periodically for the last 15 years). He’s about 6’1″. I think he mostly lives with his sister. I once heard him say, “If I had $10,000 I’d be set for life.” Apparently he’s unaware how much his sister pays to keep a roof over their heads.
Do you think this panhandler can support you just because he’s taller than me?
If you’re interested in wealth, choose a man who is wealthy. Don’t choose a proxy for wealth unless you’re looking to be disappointed. If you’re looking for intelligence, choose a man who is intelligent. Don’t choose a proxy for intelligence. If you’re looking for a man who is healthy, choose him based on his health, not a proxy.
And if you want me to treat you like you’re stupid, keep suggesting that people should select a mate by traits which are a proxy for the traits they actually want, instead of selecting for the traits they actually want.
Angie said: (#71)
“Men will happily stare at women’s chests whether they are on display or not.”
“I don’t necessarily think any of this buys into the whole height argument, but I’d believe a tall, busty woman when she says her breasts are at eye level with shorter men.”
Helen’s suggestion was stupid because, as you pointed out, it doesn’t buy into the whole height argument.
If a man is that much shorter than you, his eyes are on the same level as your breasts. If he’s substantially taller than you, he can stare down your cleavage unless you’re wearing a turtleneck.
The issue isn’t the height of the man. The issue is whether he can make eye contact with a woman, or whether he ogles her breasts. Does staring at a woman’s breasts become acceptable if it’s done at a sufficiently steep downward angle?
Sparkling Emerald asked: (#79)
“Karl R — Why the hostile response?”
What was hostile about my response to you? I disagreed with part of your statement, though I found most of it to be quite rational. (There are no shortage of statements on this thread that infuriate me out of their sheer stupidity, but yours wasn’t one of them.)
To reiterate the point I was making:
If I look at Roseanne Bare and say, “I don’t find her attractive, and part of that is due to her weight and age,” that seems to be perfectly sensible. If I suddenly decide that Christie Brinkley and Susan Sarandon are unattractive because they passed 50 and 60 (respectively), or Christina Hendricks is unattractive because she has exceeded some weight metric, then there’s something flawed with my reasoning.
Attractiveness (for men or women) doesn’t boil down to one thing. Most of the women who are drawn to tall men aren’t falling over themselves to date Manute Bol. So if they’re looking at the whole package, where does it make sense to arbitrarily rule someone out for being an outlier on one trait?
As you said, people may not have much control over what they find attractive, but if they’re ruling out numerous people before they even look at them, that’s myopic.
Sparkling Emerald says
In a way, I find this amusing, about women “shrinking their dating pool”. As EMK says, men do what MEN want to do, not what women want to do. Men can reach out to any woman they want on most websites. I have rec’d e-mails from men out of my preferred age range, from smokers, and from men waaaaaay out of my geographic range. I e-mailed one man back, who lived on the other side of the country, and told him thanks for his interest, but I am looking for someone closer to home. He wrote back and said “distance doesn’t matter”. (I didn’t respond to that) I really don’t have many other hard & fast preferences listed, but I seem to get the smokers, who are young enough to be my son. If a man wants to reach out to a woman, he will reach out to the woman HE wants to reach out to, not the women he thinks have “given him permission” to reach out to them. I know 2 women who married men considerably younger, after saying “he’s to young”. These men pursued and eventually wed these older women. People think they have specific preferences, but sometimes meet someone, and they are surprised by who they end up falling for. I’ve seen it happen with age, I’ve seen it happen with desired occupation. I have a friend who said she would ONLY date men with “cerebral” occupations, she always went for the white collar alpha males. She end up married to a self employed roofer, they now run the business together. She provides the “cerebral” part of the business, he provides the labor. i haven’t really seen it happen w/ the height thing, but it probably does.
kiesh says
#55 Lia – Why do you assume that I haven’t tried to date short men??? I have plenty of times. And I think I’m pretty realistic with my definition of short (under 5’8). I’ve tried many, many times to date men that I’m not physically attracted to (5’3ers and otherwise) and that attraction just never grew even after months of dating. Some of us DO know ourselves, pretty well in fact. Attraction either is or isn’t, you can’t trick yourself into feeling something you don’t. Well you can…and end up in a marriage where you only have sex twice every 6 months.
Scooter says
Agreed, Kiesh. If you’re not genuinely attracted on a physical level, then you should not!
You seem like a reasonable woman. Therefore I simply ask this: if one of your friends decides to date a shorter guy, don’t be one of those women who derides said friend, for doing so. Too many women (and some men) do that.
Sparkling Emerald says
I don’t think it’s so much that women wake up one morning and say “Gee, I think I will refuse to be attracted to men with “X” quality. (X being any variable, not meaning X rated 🙂 I think women discover a pattern of who they are attracted to, and after discovering a pattern can go with that. However, many women change, if they discover a pattern, and they keep getting hurt. My friend who would only date drop dead gorgeous corporate alpha-maies and kept getting hurt, ended up marrying a blue collar guy. (But he was drop dead good looking ! ) And many people, men and women both, have a long laundry list of “must haves” in a partner, and then they meet someone who shatters that list, and they fall wildly in love ! John Lennon said before Yoko, who always went for leggy blondes. Does she look like a leggy blonde to you ?
I guess I’m lucky, because I usually can’t put my finger on why I’m not attracted to someone (and sometimes why I am) I just know it when I see it. (or hear it, because I know voice has a lot to do with it) So since I don’t know much about specifics, I am not arbitrarily ruling out someone base on height, weight, hair color, income, etc. My real deal breakers are smoking and drug users, but I don’t think anyone, even the harshest critic would find fault with that. I also know that I don’t want a Long Distance Relationship, so I do have a a mileage range, and I know that I don’t want someone way younger or way older so I have an age range, even tho I don’t know the EXACT cut off for the age. I have men contact me who are slightly out of those ranges, but I’ll look at the entire profile, and make a decision based on that. I’ll look @ the pic, to see if it’s a yes or a maybe. I’ll check for deal breakers like smoking, being young enough to be my son, or living on the other side of the country. (If they don’t post a pic, I don’t reply) I’ll read the “about me” narrative to see if we have similar attitudes, goals, etc. (some of those narratives scream “I’m looking for a booty call”, so I ignore those, no matter how cute, non-smoking, age appropriate, geographically accessible he is)
Right now I have an e-mail flirtation going with someone a year older than my range, and about 50 miles further out than I specified. But he reached out to me, so I’m not going to write him off over 1 year and 50 miles. His pic was real cute, and his narrative seemed to indicate similar values & goals. I’m not too attached to the outcome, because I do think a 2 hour commute could be a problem, but since most of these e-mail exchanges end up going nowhere, I’ll keep this up, and see what happens. At least it gives me an opportunity to try out some new stuff from EMK’s Valentine’s day audio.
Helen says
Karl R: Has the other Karl R suddenly disappeared and left this Mr. Hyde version?
You wrote: “I’m beginning to wonder whether a few of you are deliberately trying to come up with the stupidest possible excuse for your behavior. Is there a contest with a prize that I overlooked? There’s no rationality, no logic, no thought involved.”
I never said a thing about my own behavior. Many of the other women didn’t, either. You misrepresented us, and then attempted to call our behaviors stupid when, again, you know nothing about our actual behaviors. I’ve dated a 5’2″ man. I’m now married to a taller man. Men of any height can be good.
You also wrote: “And if you want me to treat you like you’re stupid, keep suggesting that people should select a mate by traits which are a proxy for the traits they actually want, instead of selecting for the traits they actually want.”
And if you want me to consider you a hostile fool, keep putting words in my mouth that I never stated. I never stated that anyone SHOULD select a mate by associated traits. I suggested that this might indeed be a phonemenon that is occurring. I didn’t place a value judgment on it either way.
Ruby says
Studies have been done that show that taller men make more money because people assume that they are more intelligent and powerful, so they can get higher paying jobs. Obviously, this isn’t going to be the case with every tall man. There does tend to be a “halo effect” around attractive people, in general, by which we assume they possess certain positive character traits whether they actually do or not. It’s a common occurrence, but it’s also a good reminder not to judge a book by its cover. For what it’s worth, a couple of my 6’3″, good-looking exes were not high earners at all (despite being, in fact, very intelligent).
Sparkling Emerald says
John 66 Said ” Don’t fret. Boob size is overrated. I have no problem with “a” cups at all.”
Hi John, I’m not fretting at all, I’ve accepted that men are very visual, and want what they want and will go after it. That pretty much shrinks my dating pool, since so many men are “T” men, but I’m OK with that. I really only want ONE man, and I want him to think I’m so freakin’ adorable, that he just HAS to pursue me from the get-go, rather than someone who is intellectually trying to talk himself into having a particular emotional re-action to my looks. I think that is the problem with this whole subject, you have people trying to give people a LOGICAL answer to why they “should” have a particular EMOTIONAL response.
I’m glad you have no problem with a cups (don’t know why, you are just a stranger on a blog), you are not alone, but you aren’t in the majority either.
If a guy likes glamourous “hot” women, most likely he won’t be attracted to me, because I am more “cutsie” in a girl next door way, than hot & glamourous. (I have tried different, hair, clothes & make up to try and glam it up, but I just end up looking like a cute little girl playing with mommy’s make up)
If a guy likes tall women, he won’t be attracted to me. Can’t do a thing about that. I wear heels, but I’m still short.
I know being a red-head is one of those love it or hate it. Sometimes I think I should go back to being a brunette, which is how I was born (now I am salt & pepper), but I LOVE being a red-head, so if it means shrinking my dating pool, so be it.
As discouraged as I sometimes get, I still hold on to some hope, that there is a guy out there looking for a petite, red-headed, a-cup, girl next door type, or maybe THOUGHT he was looking for someone else, but finds me and thinks WOW. I would be very upset, if I was getting involved with a guy, only to find out that he was trying to be “open minded” and give the cute, short, girl with tiny boobs a chance to increase his dating pool, when really what he wanted was a tall blonde super model looking girl with cleavage. Oh yeah, and when this guy finds me, I hope he’s someone I feel the same way back about. It really bums me out when a guy gets all over the moon for me, and I just can’t feel the same way back.
I am glad that match.com doesn’t have “cup size” as a question in what you prefer in your date. 😉
Kristen says
I just want to respond to the debate over whether using height as a criteria is “irrational” or “stupid.”
If you are a 6’0 tall woman like me, I don’t think it is irrational to prefer men who are tall. I am open to dating men of any height but all things being somewhat equal, I might use height as a factor in deciding whether to date a tall man over a man who was shorter than me. The reason is I get comments on my stature on an almost daily basis. Quite a few of these comments are, frankly, rude and insulting. When I have dated men who are significantly shorter, people cannot seem to stop themselves from making rude comments about our height differences. If you have never experienced being berated my complete strangers over your looks, maybe you can’t really understand that it can negatively affect your self esteem and it also can create stress in a relationship. But it’s not irrational or stupid for a tall woman to seek out a tall man in order to avoid constant public derision.
Scooter says
I believe you, Kristen. And the rude comments are a manifestation of a deeply ingrained societal prejudice. It’s wrong, vile, and needs to change. Change starts with individuals, and open discussion such as seen on these boards.
Lia says
@ Kiesh
Okay, got it! You could never, ever, under any circumstances ever, ever, ever… (Is that enough “ever”s for you?) be attracted to a man under 5’ 8”. It is outside the realm of all possibility. And you DO know yourself. Good. So no question of you ever having to go out with guys that you will never, ever, ever be attracted to. Feel better now?
I wrote, “No one wants you to date someone that you have no attraction to.” How you went from that to responding with, “Attraction either is or it isn’t, you can’t trick yourself into feeling something you don’t. Well you can … and end up in a marriage where you only have sex twice every six month.” Is a bit of a head scratcher for me.
I never stated that you should “trick” yourself into anything. I just wondered if it was possible for attraction to grow if you didn’t feel it right off the bat. Obviously that was a silly notion. After all you DO know yourself, there is no way you could ever, ever be attracted to any guy under 5’ 8”. Got it. Moving on…
@ Sparkling Emerald # 84
I liked your post. I had things that I looked for in a guys profile. It wasn’t height, degree, or income but how their profile was written. (My sister calls me a word junkie.) If he could make me laugh and capture my interest how he looked got a lot of leeway. (Unless he looked like my dad.) I would also look at what he liked to read and what he wrote under the “Faith” part. Then I found out that there were guys who really wrote well but they were no good at the face to face. One guy seemed to have the same spiritual outlook on paper but in real life he didn’t.
I am taking a long look at myself and where my blind spots are. I really like what Evan said about women going for what they want instead of what they need. I can see that tendency in myself. My sisters and I have been looking at our list of must-haves with fresh eyes and we are wondering if we even know what would really make us happy. (From our past relationships I would have to say a resounding NO!)
Sparkling Emerald says
Lia – 89
Glad you liked my post. I think it’s really rather silly how some men on this blog are so worked up over women who ask for specifics on our dating sites, or whatever. Since WHEN do men do what WE want ? They do what THEY want. I have very few things specified. I have a distance range, (50 miles) an age range and I have said under smoking preference for my date “No Way”. I get e-mails from smokers, guys young enough to be my son, and men from across the country. So while I agonized over what arbitrary number to set for distance or age, it doesn’t matter, the men who want to write to me, will write to me. Personally, I think some just look at the pics and send an e-mail to the ones that meet their looks requirements. I wonder if I am “shrinking my dating pool” by putting in an age range, but I know I don’t want to be old enough to be someone’s mother, or to date someone old enough to be my Dad. (In my younger years, I actually wanted a much older man, but now that I am much older myself, I really don’t want someone so much older) So I put a 20 year range, 10 plus or minus my age. So maybe there’s a GREAT guy 11 years older. Oh goodness, gracious, me, I just missed the opportunity to meet Mr Wonderful because I capped the upper limit arbitrarily at 10 years older than me. (Being facetious here) Doesn’t matter, if Mr Great Guy who is 11 years older and lives 51 miles from me, really likes my pic and/or profile he will reach out to me. Then I can look at his entire profile and see if that extra year, and that one extra minute commute really matters.
I know what you mean about guys who say one thing on paper, but in person it’s a different story. One guy said he had a sense of humor (but that’s basically what they all say, but he went on about it a bit in his profile) Well, if had a sense of humor, I certainly didn’t see it on our second (and last date) He just acted like he had a stick up his caboose. He also said his build was “about average” but I thought he had “a few extra pounds”, but I get that something like that is a matter of opinion, and I didn’t mind that he had quite a few extra pounds, but he did spend some time complaining about women who lie about their body type, and claimed that one woman turned out to be built like “Java the Hut”. (another turn off for me, who want to hear disparging remarks about an ex or a previous date ???? )
Helen says
Sparkling Emerald 90: You are so right, every part, and your comments had me laughing here. Best of luck in your search.
Kiesh says
Lia – Your entire argument is a head scratcher for me. Just because YOU are attracted to short men, you can’t possibly fathom that anyone else can legitimately not be attracted to them. There’s no right or wrong here. You conveniently ignored the part where I tried to date short men for months and attraction never grew. Also interesting is your need to speak in ridiculous absolutes. My point is that height is not some arbitrary number – it falls under physical attraction. You obviously don’t get it. I don’t understand why anyone thinks they’re the authority on what’s ‘acceptable’ or ‘wrong’ to like/dislike in a mate. It’s a good thing that we don’t need consensus or approval from others to validate what we like/don’t like. I’m not going to go back and forth on this. Like what you like – you don’t need other women to agree lol.
Lia says
Sparkling Emerald
I think the key is being able to recognize what is important and truly finding out what it is we need. Prior to reading Evan’s blog I thought I knew what was important to me. After reading his blog and now looking back with new eyes on the choices I have made in the past, there are things that I had to re-evaluate.
Two years ago I went online and started dating. (It was my second foray into the world of online dating.) I received an email from a man whose profile was sparse and he didn’t look like someone I would be attracted to (not ugly by any means just not my usual taste). My sister insisted that I change my mind about meeting him (she can be relentless).
I met him and we started dating. I thought I was not attracted to him. Not repulsed by him, just no “spark”. Whatever combination of things have to be there in order for me to feel the “spark” (emotionally unavailable, self absorbed, no time for me…LOL) was not there. He liked me, he was obviously attracted to me, and he treated me better than any man ever had. He actually did boyfriend things, wanted to be exclusive, called and texted every day, took me out on the weekend, talked about the future, wanted me to meet his friends and his kids.
Oh yes, about that “no spark” thing… I sometimes give nicknames to guys I have dated in the past. (These are not names call them, but names that I will use sometimes when talking about them to my sisters.) His nicknames (he has two)… The Body Whisperer and Mr. Magic Hands. Without a doubt the best sex of my life… period. So much for “no spark”.
Of course I broke up with him. We really didn’t have a chance. I couldn’t see what was right in front of me and I was going through one of the most difficult times in my life and was not allowing myself to grieve.
The gift in this is knowing that I have been blind to my own best interests in the past and I could be blind to them again. I think that maybe being willing to question what I “know” and being open to changing those things that I do that do not work, might end up being my saving grace.
Kiesh says
@ Sparking Emerald – that’s exactly it. ANYTHING can be deemed ‘arbitrary’ and reducing your pool. I say go for what you truly want. I find that people (read: men) only question it when they don’t meet the criteria. Women only question it when they settled or have different preferences and need consensus to feel good about their own choices. If you say you’re not attracted to x, they take it as a slight because they married x. It’s all so hilarious to me.
Sparkling Emerald says
Keish – 94 – This time in dating, I am trying to draw a fine line between, “giving someone I’m not initially attracted to ‘a chance’ ” and “settling”. That’s why for me there HAS to be a certain baseline level of attraction to begin with. It doesn’t have to mean OVER THE MOON, or “Gosh, let’s get naked right now,’ cuz your so HOT”. But usually when I meet someone, it’s a DEFINITE YES, DEFINITE NO, or a MAYBE. I will give the maybe’s “another chance”, but not the Definite NO’s. I have maybe’s get bumped up to DEFINITE YES’s (I’ve had DEFINITE YES’s turn into NO FREAKIN’ WAY), but have never had a Definite NO turn into a YES or even a maybe. (So sad, because some seemingly sweet guys, that seemed to really be into me have fallen into the definite NO category) No one is doing ANYONE a favor by settling, because they are “of a certain age” and their Mom, sister, an online scold on a dating blog, told them that they were being to picky, and they should “open up” etc. I think people do end up settling for many reasons, one of them being all those societal voices saying there is something wrong with you if you aren’t married by now, you are being to picky, you are setting arbitrary standards, etc. etc. When people “settle” for someone they really weren’t into to begin with, everyone loses. And people fall in love with people that didn’t fit all their criteria all the time. But it is NOT because someone scolded them into it, but because they met that person, the magic happened, and they think WOW, this person isn’t USUALLY my type, but I just can’t help myself from falling in love with them. 30 years ago, if someone had told me I would have fallen in love with an unemployed carpenter, younger than me, shy guy, I would have thought they were nuts. But sure enough I did, and we had a good 10 or 12 years (married for over 20:( ) So just maybe, one of the tall women on this blog will end up madly in love with a guy exactly her height, and will be sheepishly telling us about it, but it will NOT be because she was shamed into it, or told her arbitrary height standards are STUPID, it will happen, because sometimes life & love just surprise us.
Karla (NineGPS) says
So many of us live with blinders that keep us from love. When you start removing the rigid criteria for dating the universe has a way of sending amazing men in your world.
Laine says
Sparkling Emerald- you have hit the nail on the head. So well said.
Chance says
Kiesh said (#94):
“I say go for what you truly want. I find that people (read: men) only question it when they don’t meet the criteria.”
That’s not true. I remember viewing women’s profiles online where they had put minimum income requirements that were more than twice what they made or had height requirements of around 8″-10″ taller than their own height. Even though I met those preferences/requirements, I was not interested in those women because their requirements were ridiculous. Many men are turned off by unrealistic requirements even if they happen to meet them. I’m not saying YOUR requirements are unreasonable (I have no idea how tall you are), but what I just went over might be something to consider when trying to attract the best possible mate.
Goldie says
@ Helen #85, I was wondering the same thing! This isn’t the Karl R that I know, and, just like you, I am mystified (to put it mildly) by this new Karl’s posts on this thread! And I think I will leave it at that.
# 94: “Women only question it when they settled or have different preferences and need consensus to feel good about their own choices. If you say you’re not attracted to x, they take it as a slight because they married x. ”
Now where’s the logic in this? If you say you’re not attracted to x, and I like x, then more x for me, right? If you say you’re attracted to x, and I am married to x, then you’re one less person I have to worry about stealing my x 😉 The reason I’ve been posting on this thread is not to justify my choices (why would I do that when my bf is the most awesome guy in the world… puzzled), but to share my experience. I first started dating several decades ago, I was shallow, I ended up marrying a man that I had chosen for shallow reasons. Yes he was tall and good-looking, but we were pretty wrong for each other. Started dating again about three years ago. At first I, once again, had a long checklist. First man I met online that I ended up dating for a couple of months, fit my checklist perfectly. And yes, my checklist started with height, the man had to be at least six feet tall. Imagine my surprise when I realized that, even though he ticked off every single item on my checklist, he was still a douchebag of epic proportions. When he finally asked to be exclusive, I just didn’t have it in me to say yes. I asked if he could give me some time to think. Sure enough, I got yelled at, he asked what was wrong with me that I didn’t want commitment, and whether it was cultural (I am not originally from this country, so of course this awesome human being had to bring that up.) I looked him in the eye and said “I don’t understand it myself. You have everything I was looking for, but something is missing”. He drove home and deleted me from his Facebook, and I tossed out my checklist, which was apparently not working, and started paying really close attention to what Evan was saying on this blog, even when I didn’t like the sound of it. Turned out, my priorities were way off. I was filtering by the wrong things first. I changed my strategy, and here I am with the most awesome guy in the world. He may not be six feet tall, but he spent all his free time taking care of me when I had emergency surgery last year. You tell me which of the two is more important in a partner.
Re the “tall men are higher earners” theory — my last two jobs have been at major corporations, and at both places, the majority of people in upper management have been short guys. Not “an inch shy of six feet”, but really short guys. I have no idea why. Anyway, maybe there are professions where tall men end up being higher earners (modeling? pro basketball?), but I don’t see that happening in my line of business.
Lucy says
I am 5ft 4″. I try not to be too picky on height but I know I probably wouldn’t have the hots for a guy shorter than 5ft 7″/8″ and I have tried. I really believe than any man deserves a woman who doesn’t “settle” on his height or feel less attracted to him because of it; just like I don’t want to feel that a man is gonna settle for my slightly dumpy physique.
I try not to be rigid about what I find attractive before I think myself out of relationships with good people. When I think about the men I’ve dated, often the better ones have all been men I wouldn’t pick out of a catalogue but I felt a good level of attraction for them which wasn’t at all forced. Euurghh I hate the idea of comparing men against each other on looks and it puts me on the fence about online dating. Preferences are what they are and we should let situations unfold.
I agree with Sparkling Emerald. It’s not fair to choose someone you have zero attraction to as a ‘safe’ option – completely demeaning to the man involved, unless he is aware of that (in which case he’ll be settling too).
Sparkling Emerald says
Chance #98 – “That’s not true. I remember viewing women’s profiles online where they had put minimum income requirements . . .”
Ugh, I guess I shouldn’t fault other women for their preferences, but I don’t list my income (maybe because it’s pretty low), I don’t state a preferred income, and I don’t even at my matches income if they list it. If a guy makes enough money to pull his own weight, that’s fine by me. As long as he’s not homeless, or still living on a hide-a-bed in his parent basement, I don’t care. I completely don’t care care about type of job. Blue collar, white collar, etc. I do like men who own their own businesses, but I think it more because they possess a certain take charge, decisive attitude, and would have to be a self starter, and have certain desireable traits in order to run their own business, but I don’t make it a requirement. It’s a nice to have, not a must have for me.
I am more concerned with how someone handles the money that they DO have, and how generous they are will ALL of their resources, including, but not limited to money, but also their time and their talent. I would rather be with a mid-income, blue collar worker, who would spend all of his free time with me, and would spend his last dollar for the week on girl scout cookies, just to help out the kids, and volunteered his talents for a charity, then to be with a cheap, stingy, millionaire, who has it all, but won’t share any of it. (Of course a generous millionaire who wanted to share with me would be ideal 😉
kiesh says
@ Chance – Why do you get to decide that someone else’s requirements are “unrealistic?” You are free to reject those women for any reason(s) you choose, though. I just don’t see why people are so invested in other’s preferences.
@ Goldie – Why does everything have to be one extreme or the other? Being tall and a good guy are mutually exclusive? Women who like tall men are only capable of choosing jerks? Women who don’t date short men only date 6’0 and up? And they only want gorgeous hunks? None of these things are remotely true. It’s actually possible to be attracted to someone without having to think so hard about it AND they treat you well. Crazy, right?
Way too many assumptions being made in this discussion. I think we’re all clear that sticking to a rigid checklist in your search for love isn’t the best idea. I’m just saying that for some people height isn’t some arbitrary preference. And you have no idea which other characteristics are being overlooked/accepted.
No one is advocating acceptance of poor treatment in search for height. Let’s stop reaching, folks.
Karen says
The height issue is very real for me. I am nearly 6ft2 with my Louboutains on. The problem is that alot of men get weirded out by this. I could date down but very few men have the Cajunas to date up. Also, my male friends tell me that my heels are important because I have especially good legs. If a guy is intimidated by my height, he is not the right guy for me. I am lucky, I get more than my fair share of 6 ft 3 plus characters. But, the shorter ones just don’t have any guts. They’ll look, stare, do triple takes but never come over even if I give them the 10 second “I am inviting you to come talk to me” return stare. At this point actually, I am very tempted to go over to the next man or group of men (whether in my heels or flats) and say, “now you boys have been staring at me for a while now but you’d rather huddle up together over your beer than come over and talk to a single woman. So, are you gutless or gay”? Seriously. What is wrong with these guys? And, don’t tell me that they are afraid of rejection because I am too, but I still keep getting out there and taking the punches. Taller men are just easier, more confident and less overwhelmed.
Goldie says
@ Kiesh #102:
“Being tall and a good guy are mutually exclusive? Women who like tall men are only capable of choosing jerks?”
No to both questions, but these women are ruling out a large number of quality men based on an arbitrary standard. Oh well, as I said, more for the rest of us.
Lia says
@ Karla (9GPS) # 96
YES!! That what I was trying to communicate but I think you did it better and with less words. 🙂
Goldie # 99
Thank you for the great post. I did not see the logic in the # 94 post either. If I like men under 6’ and other women don’t think those men are attractive those women are going to pass them up. I can’t see how that hurts me. And if I was in a relationship with a man who was 5’6” or 5”7” why would that mean that I had “settled”?
The thing that I find the most confusing is how vehement that objection is to even the suggestion that letting go of these rigid criteria might be a good thing. It is not like anyone has suggested that women should be open to dating a leprous, lecherous, leprechaun with three wives, a drug addiction and seven outstanding arrest warrants.
If someone writes that women should consider letting go of that 100k a year criteria. Suddenly it is all about how they are being asked to date some homeless guy without any job prospects. If the criteria is that a man has to have a bachelors degree or “better” and it is suggested that it might be something she could be flexible on, somehow that gets twisted into how they should date a drooling imbecile who can’t tie his own shoes.
How does being flexible on height so that they can open the door to more possibilities, translate into “tricking” themselves into “lowering” their standards and ending up married to a man that they find so disgusting that they would only have sex with “twice every six months”.
Maybe someone can explain that to me because I can’t wrap my head around it.
Chance says
Kiesh said (#102):
“Why do you get to decide that someone else’s requirements are ‘unrealistic?’”
Well, in the context of what I was discussing (looking through women’s profiles online), I can decide whatever I want. Determining whether something is realistic or not is subjective, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. It isn’t like I’m sending them a message that says “You know, your height/income requirements are unreasonable and you should change them.” I simply ignore them and move on.
They certainly have the right to have those requirements. The point was that they may simply be pushing away suitable men that meet their requirements because they may come off as arrogant and entitled.
Lia says
Keish # 92
“Lia – your entire argument is a head scratcher for me”
Of that I have no doubt. When I responded to your post # 54 I was not arguing with you I simply gave you another point of view to consider.
Let’s start from the top…
Keish # 54 you wrote you were not attracted to 5’7” and under men.
My post # 55 (paragraph #3) I wrote “No one wants you to date someone you have no attraction to” I wasn’t trying to “convert” you, I just wondered if you had considered the possibility that attraction might grow over time. It wasn’t an accusation or a put down.
Keish # 83 “why do you assume that I haven’t tried to date shorter men.”
Frankly Keish you didn’t say that you had. You wrote that you didn’t find them attractive. Now you have declared that you have dated them and it is duly noted.
Keish # 83 “attraction never grew even after months of dating”
Fair enough. You tried it and for you attraction does not grow over time.
Keish # 83
“Some of us DO know ourselves, pretty well in fact.”
Okay.
Keish #83
“Attraction either is or isn’t, you can’t trick yourself into feeling something you don’t.”
Who said anything about tricking yourself??????
Keish # 83
“Well you can… and end up in a marriage where you only have sex twice every six months.”
????? Again I wrote, “No one wants you to date someone you have no attraction to”
Keish # 92
“You conveniently ignored the part where I tried to date short men for months and attraction never grew.”
How could I “conveniently ignore” in post # 55, what you didn’t write until post # 83?
I did address it in post # 89
Keish # 92 “It is also interesting you need to speak in ridiculous absolutes”
LOL!!! I actually found this very funny coming from the one who wrote (in post #83):
Well you can… and end up in a marriage where you only have sex twice every six months.”
Keish # 92 “You obviously don’t get it.”
Back at ya!
Keish # 92 “Like what you like you don’t need other women to agree.”
LOL!! Thank you I now have permission to like what I like I am so relieved!!! If anyone asks I’ll say Keish says I don’t have to have permission to like what I like.
Lia says
Chance # 98
I find myself doing the same thing you do. I look at a man’s preferences and I wondered if men looked at the preferences women listed. I wondered if those preferences made a difference to the guy looking.
When I was on Match I found that even when I fell into a man’s preferred age range it was a turn off if his preferred age range did not include women his own age (sometimes not even within five years of his age). I put ten years above my age and if I really find the man interesting that is not by any means set in stone. Maybe it shouldn’t matter to me when a man completely discounts women his age but it really does.
Sparkling Emerald says
After reading this article, and all the bickering going back and forth about weather it’s OK for women to have a height standard, I started looking at my online matches, the men who are contacting me etc. I noticed a few men stated preference for women shorter than themselves. For some, it was just a numeric notation in the stats. Others put in their profile thing like ” I am short , so you must be too”. One man I went out with a few times, and he re-contacted me, has mentioned his short stature a few times. The first time we met, almost the first thing he did was look at my boots, not that they had a heel, and then stand next to me to compare our heights. Both of my hubbies were about 5’6″. I didn’t consciously select them based on height, but perhaps they selected ME base on height (consciously or unconsiously) It could have been a Pavlonian response to being overlooked by taller women, and getting a better response from the petite ones.
I know EMK strictly tells women how WE can change to find love, but it is still unrealistic to blame the height descrepency completely on women.
Before the internet, there really wasn’t a drop down box where you HAD to select numbers (for age, acceptable distance, etc) As far as I know, on my website, you MUST select something in the range. (Others have an option for no preference, but I don’t think height is one where you can select that. I do see where people will put a range of 3 feet to 8 feet as their way of saying no preference.
So women may be “shrinking their ONLINE dating pool,” when they feel compelled to select numbers from the drop down box , but by being online to begin with, they have greatly increased their pool to begin with. So most likely it is a net gain.
Also, most daters are still meeting people IRL, and so they could end up hitting it off with someone, not knowing their exact height, or having so much fun, they don’t care.
I am not really for sure about what selections can be “no preference” and which can be left blank, but next time I edit my profile, I will dbl check.
BGirl81 says
Ohmygod, that 5′ 1″ chick is ME. I realize that it’s completely and utterly ridiculous for someone who looks like the first female Mayor of Munchkinland to have their head turned almost exclusively by dudes over 6′ – so much so that I would frankly be too embarrassed to admit it to my best friend! Thank you for this Evan!
p.s. I once dated a guy that was a total douchebag. (Yes, a TALL bag of douche.) He went on and on to me about how hot a female friend of his was and ended with, “And she’s, you know, tall!” . I was outraged! Granted, I would never, ever in 20 million say something similar to a man of any height, but oy vey….pot meet kettle!
andy says
Its understandable woman are more attracted men that are taller. But there many woman with unrealistic expectations. And Ive noticed that short woman are the worst about it. Ive met several woman who are like 5’1 and will only date men 5’10 and above… WTF? ill say +5″ difference a reasonable number, any more then that you have some issues.
BTW Im 5’11 btw so im not some angry short guy.
Chance says
@Lia
Completely agree with you! You are right to be irritated by men who discount women their own age. People shouldn’t want what they don’t have. I think the age thing for men is like the income/height thing for women because it seems that’s often where unrealistic expectations come to the surface.
I have a friend who just set up a profile online and put in an age preference that didn’t include his own age. I talked him into adjusting it. I have to think that he would have come across as a total jackass to some of the women looking at his profile. Ha!
Lia says
@ Bgirl81 # 110
OMG you are honest and hilarious!! “first female mayor of Munchkinland” LOL!!!
“Yes, a TALL bag of douche” LOL!!! “but oy vey… pot meet kettle” Thanks for the laughs you are delightful!
I must date her says
Nice article. I agree with you especially about “Money matters”. Relations can get strained is very true.
Carrie says
@Kiesh: Height and weight are not comparable IMO. Being overweight is a sign that a person is unhealthy, lacks motivation, self control, or any number of faults. Height tells you nothing about the quality of a person.
An apt comparison to height would be cup size. But as much as men are lambasted for their obsession with breasts, i’ve never met a guy not want to date me soley because of my A cups.
Lia says
@ Chance #112
You did your friend a big favor. You are right he would have come across as a total jackass.
I know it’s been said before but I want to reiterate that though dating online has it’s undeniable benefits it does have it’s down sides. One of those being the unrealistic expectations.
Ruby # 57 wrote “Prior to online dating and personal ads, you mostly met people IRL. If I thought a 5’8” man was attractive, he was attractive. I wouldn’t have thought, ‘Hmmm, here’s a profile of this other guy who is 6’2”, maybe he is more manly.’ In fact I really didn’t think of a shorter guy being short if I was attracted to him.”
Nathan # 58 wrote: “In one case, I was told point blank that being 5’ 11” instead of 6’ was the reason she rejected me. We’d never met. Only exchanged two e-mails. WHat the hell does one inch matter?”
Goldie # 61 wrote: “When I first started dating, in the 80’s, you didn’t approach a guy with a measuring tape to see if he was within your height requirements. You met him IRL, you talked, you did things together, and decided whether you liked him or not.”
Now with online dating you can see a man’s height, his income, his profession, and his education all before you even meet him IRL. And then you can take this guy and compare him to other men you have never met IRL. You can make judgements about who he is before you meet him IRL. And yes men are doing the same to women.
Don’t get me wrong I do not have anything against online dating, but it is maybe wise to keep in mind that there are pitfalls to be navigated.
Goldie says
@ Lia #105:
“If someone writes that women should consider letting go of that 100k a year criteria. Suddenly it is all about how they are being asked to date some homeless guy without any job prospects. ”
So true. All throughout this thread, I’ve been wanting to say… relax, girls, Peter Dinklage is already happily married and is not available! No one says you should date a man half your height, but 2-3 inches shorter is no big deal. (Two of my best dates were guys 5’6″ tall. I’m 5’9″. Of course, one of them said he was 5’8″, but gimme a break, I’m tall, not blind!)
#116 — I learned to take all numbers on a guy’s profile with a grain of salt. They could be quite far from reality, or the numbers could be correct, but the man himself could still be bad news… but he won’t say so on his profile. But yes, this is a downside of online dating — the way it is set up to work, the temptation is strong to approach it like shopping for a product that meets our requirements. I tried to concentrate more on what I consider the benefits of online dating, like being able to email and chat with the man in a relaxed, no-pressure environment, and to learn more about him before meeting him in person. Though I admit, when I saw a number like 6’3″ on a guy’s profile, it did generate kind of a blind spot. One of the last dates I had was with a guy whose profile said exactly that and who had a cute picture. Only as I was heading out the door, did I finally notice this on his profile “favorite books: lol not really into that stuff”… yikes, big red flag! It was too late to cancel, so I went and spent an hour with a guy who had, after high school, joined the Army to pay for college, then flunked out of college because he’d spent his entire freshman year playing tetris instead of going to class!… you get the general idea.
Steve says
I’m 5 11. I’ve noticed that a lot of of women 5 2 gravitate towards me, so I found Evan’s post amusing. Yes, I’ve learned to watch where I step :). Physically, I like women of most heights, up to my own. The killer for me is when a woman is my height and then wears high heels. I feel like a kid out with his mother.
Steve says
@ Jenna, #12
Why is it a problem at all? If you don’t want to date out of shape men, don’t accept their invitations for dates.
I’m impressed that you work out 5 times a week. Do you feel like you are sacrificing other things? Keeping up with your career, reading, social time,etc?
Lia says
@ Goldie # 117
I admit I had to google Peter Dinklage.
Aahh the little surprises of online dating. Favorite books is one of the places I always check.
Your post was great… as always.
Sue says
I think what society really needs is for Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman to get back together. That’ll make everyone feel much better about the taller woman/shorter guy thing.
Anita says
[email protected]: Except for Nicole herself. She’s said that the best thing about her divorce from Cruise is that now she can wear heels.
Nicole says
@Sue, Katie Holmes is about as tall as Nicole Kidman, and Nicole Kidman’s current husband is actually a good bit shorter than her (although not as short at Tom Cruise). So I think the heels comment pre-dated her marriage to Keith Urban.
A lot of celebrity women have shorter husbands and boyfriends. Tina Fey isn’t a tall woman but her husband is much, much shorter than her.
So it’s not as if no one sees men with much taller wives who are also in the public eye.
ShortGirl says
I’m 5 feet tall. I PREFER short guys. Who wants to talk to somebody’s belt buckle anyway? 😉
Sparkling Emerald says
Hi Short Girl
I’m not as short as you, I think I’m actually just a half inch shy of the average for women (I am 5′ 3 1/2″) I am getting just a tad irritated on the pressure being put on the taller women to go for the shorter men. HEY, then they would be cutting in on my territory. It seems that most of the men that go for me are about 5’6″ to 5’7″. If the tall leggy supermodels started going out with them, who would be left for me ? 🙂
Also, today at one of my meet-ups, I was talking with some of the girls and said there was a debate on weather or not women should go for shorter men. After everyone left, and I was helping the event hostess clean up, she shared with me that one of her husbands was shorter than her, and she would NEVER do that again, because he resented her being taller than he was. So in her case, she was open to his shorter stature, and he ended up having an issue with it. Go figure .
starthrower68 says
I mentioned this on the other “shorter guy” thread. I am 5’4 and the one who seems to be making the most effort and taking the most interest is 5’6. Obviously I don’t want to get too invested too soon but early indications are height will be no barrier to attraction for me 🙂
susan says
I’ve always had a bit of a height thing, coming from a family where not one of the men is under 6 foot tall.
When my marriage ended and I made the foray into dating, of course I was naturally drawn to tallker men – even though my husband was only 3 or 4 inches taller than me.
So when I met my now partner, one of my big issues was that (at only a couple of inches taller) I would probably not be wearing high heels around him. I was really REALLY self conscious about it. He kept saying he didn’t care, I threw out all my high heels. Until I found a pair of black patent leather boots with 3 inch heels that I just HAD to have. I loved them, he loved them. I’ve since bought 3 more pairs of high heeled shoes, and realised, actually it doesn’t matter. It really doesn’t.
I guess that’s part of growing up.
AS says
Well said! I’m constantly challenging my female clients (dating agency) about this. The reasons that they state for wanting a tall man range from the men in my family are tall, to I won’t feel loved and protected when he is hugging me! And how does this play a major role in comparability! The way that I see it is that why would you want to restrict yourself to a pond when there is a sea out there. Finding a partner is challenging at the best of times, why would you create more obstacles that really don’t play a significant role when it comes down to being in a loving and healthy relationship.
Lia says
@ Sparkling Emerald #125
I dated a guy who was 5’ 10” (I am 5’5 1/2”), he had issues with my height because his ex-wife was 4’10”. Then I dated a guy who was 5’9” and I ALWAYS wore heels when I went out with him and he LOVED it. So it depends on the guy.
I do “window shopping on Match. (Which means I skulk about with a hidden profile.) I have seen men 6’2” and 6’3” who have a top height for women around 5’8” or 5’9” – that is as tall as they are willing to date (Please note that these men are in a minority.) I see that and I think “p*ssy”. Do they really have to have that much of a height difference to feel like a man?
I prefer men under 6’. I would date taller of course but I generally like the body proportions of men under 6’. How ever if they have issues about MY height it is a turn off.
@ Starthrower68 # 126
You go girl!!
@ Susan #127
🙂 I agree it doesn’t matter. I like men who are confident with women who are taller (with heels or without).
@ AS #128
AMEN!
Joe says
I’m dating someone now, but if I put my profile back up again, I’m going to add to it, “I’m 5′ 9.5″ tall, but by the time I put my heels on I’m over 6′, so you’d better be tall!” 😀
starthrower68 says
@ Lia, I think it’s going the way of the hjntity . C’est la vie. What can ya do?
Lia says
@ Starthrower68
What can you do? Say, “next!!” and don’t take it personally. 🙂
Paula says
I prefer men that are 6 feet. I find I am less attracted to men that are say 5″8. I am 5″6. I feel it’s an attraction thing. If I seem to find myself more attractive to taller men, why should I change my preference? I find men my height aren’t as attractive to me. When I do online dating, I don’t discriminate based on height because I am looking for personality more then just pure physicality, but height is a factor in the chemistry department.
I think it’s biological. I feel more protected by a taller man. Men my height don’t really do it for me.
At least for me, it’s not my main criteria but it is a part of the chemistry component and there is nothing wrong with knowing what you like and are attracted to.
Revo Luzione says
I said it before, I’ll say it again:
Shorter men should work diligently on improving their posture, but also don’t be afraid of wearing heel lifts. Women do it, men in show business do it all the time.
It’s simply another tool that helps level the playing field. Shoe lifts are nothing different than women’s use of makeup or high heels.
Also, people have a hard time judging height. Some of people’s perception of height comes from a man’s attitude, style of movment and the way he carries himself. It’s about having physical presence. Men should learn to move with confidence, take up space, and cultivate a sense of feeling ‘big’, like you are projecting your energy throughout any room you happen to be in. This is really a form of self hypnosis, and as a roughly average height man, all of these things work well, not only in dating & relationships, but also in business as well.
Scooter says
This is awful, heightist advice given to short men; it essentially tells them to capitulate to an absurd societal taboo, and brand themselves losers.
Be yourself. Don’t be a fake, for the sake of people like Revo.
Aisling says
I agree wholeheartedly with Revo. I was madly in love at one time in my life with a man who was an inch shorter than me. He had all the attributes described above. One cannot control one’s height. But you can work to maximize your other assets. I can’t speak for other women, but I like being with a man who is take charge without being bossy, and who knows how to get things done. My ex-husband was the antithesis of that. I had to make all of the tough decisions, and I don’t want to be in a relationship like that again. He was a bit too beta.
The same goes for women. I have seen ladies who have hook noses and are otherwise plain end up with great men. These women have a positive attitude, are engaged with life, and are not defined by their beauty.
Age is the only thing I find tough to overcome as a woman. It’s hard when you really want to date a man your own age, but the few men who are in decent shape and have their act together want to date 10-20 years younger. I don’t want to be a cougar, and men 60+ already have too many health problems. Of course, I wouldn’t mind seeing a man through illness if I at least had some good years with him before I become the nurse.
Then again, like the short men, I have to maximize my assets no matter what my age. Age and height are two things beyond our control.
JJ says
There’s a point in every woman’s life (late 30s, early 40s) where she suddenly becomes invisible to many younger men. It just happens one day. A cute guy who might have “checked you out” or make eye contact just passes you by like you’re wearing a cloak of invisibility. Congratulations, you’ve entered middle age. That’s life. It doesn’t really matter how attractive you are, either. You’ve aged out of a certain demographic. Not to be depressing. I really can’t believe how acceptable it is for a woman to say “I must be with a tall man. Because I’m too insecure about how I look, standing next to a man. I’m worried what people will think, since society has this arbitrary notion that a man must be taller than a woman. Because my happiness in life is contingent on whether or not we look good to people.”
JB says
I ran across this today on Plenty Of Fish from a gigantic woman all of 5’3″ tall.
I quote “Physically, I prefer taller men (5’11” or taller). Sorry, it’s just one of those things”
This is a woman that even though I’m no expert I can tell she has fake boobs that are (in my opinion) too big for her body.
I wonder how she’d feel if she read in a guys profile. “Physically, I prefer women with real breasts. Sorry, it’s just one of those things”
Bottom line is any and everything you disqualify someone for is just 1 or many of “those things’. There’s hundreds of “those things”. Oh well……….
sandra says
JB, WHY NOT?
The guy has a total right to say: “my preference is real breasts and really prefer a voluptuous woman with some back to her.” If a woman who has a flat bum gets offended who cares?! Let her but that shouldn’t have to “make you” like flat bums lol
Renee says
I like shorter guys. Less stiff necks, lol. Both men and women are going to have their preferences, but no one is perfect, and we all deserve a chance 🙂
Goldie says
@ JB, if, back in my online dating days, I saw something like that on a guy’s profile (“physically, I prefer (big boobs, blue eyes, size 6, what have you), sorry it’s just one of those things”), I’d skip to the next profile, because this guy’s fixation on random physical attributes already tells me we won’t be a good match, even if I happen to meet his specs. Too shallow. Next!
PS (catty mode on) I thought Snooki had just had a baby? What’s she doing on POF? (catty mode off)
TheForgottenOne says
To all the posters getting defensive about their height preferences in men: You are missing the point of what Evan is making. The point he is making is that if you want to continue only dating men with very specific height requirements then have at it. As he says, you want what you want. BUT if you find the pool of potential men to date with are severely restricted because of your height requirements then you either have to A) be more flexible with your height requirements or B) accept the fact that you could potentially miss out on meeting a perfectly decent man and/or it may take significantly longer to find this person. But whatever you decide to do you must accept that it is your CHOICE to make that decision and you must be willing to accept the consequences of that choice.
kofybean says
A woman will have a lot dating options despite what her body type is, and I think that is where the argument is getting lost. Everyone is allowed to have their own dating preference, and it seems many women posting feel that having a height preference should be ok; and honestly, it should. However, what’s not being acknowledged is what happens if everyone has the same preference?
For example, some men like blonde hair, and some men don’t. That’s a preference, that’s totally ok. I don’t like blonde hair, so if you have blonde hair I probably wouldn’t date you, but so what, you can just date my friend who is obsessed with them; but what would happen if every man did not like blonde hair, and refused to date blonde hair women? You’d have a lot of natural blondes dying their hair, and complaining about men’s unrealistic standards. You’d have a lot of natural blondes getting upset just like short men.
Many women simply don’t understand because there is no singular body type a woman can have that automatically rules her out of the dating market. You can be big, fat, tall, skinny, brown, black…. etc, and there will be lots of men who don’t like it, and refuse to date you, but you will still have more than enough options of men who DO like it. It isn’t the same for short men. They can’t “dye their hair” so to speak to be acceptable. If you don’t date short men, and neither doesn’t your friend, and neither does her friends, etc… see?
So the miscommunication, or lack of empathy, I am seeing is that many female posters are saying “it’s a preference” and it is, I agree. However, where is the acknowledgment of when a statistically biased amount has the same preference? For one women to say “only men taller than average height are allowed” is a preference. For a statistically biased number of women to say it is a problem. And I think short men have a legitimate reason to be upset.
Wes says
5’5 and a half guy here.
Everyone knows that the dating world is a more difficult one for short men compared to that of taller guys. Dating for short men is sometimes like walking on a road scattered with thumbtacks or broken glass. To avoid being cut means taking the detour that’s not always the desired path. For tall guys, the road is much smoother and often nicely paved for him. There’s a whole lot more women who are eager to take the high road and take the chance on the tall guys path because of her own insecurities. They will seek his height to boost her femininity, to feel better about themselves, his acceptance and his attention. All without actually saying a word to his face. On the other hand, these same women will put the creep stamp on a shorter guy or any other man who she doesn’t find attractive.
I have never been one to hold a clipboard full of expectations or carry a measuring stick when surveying potential dates. Women carry this ridiculous unwritten checklist to grade men by and it doesn’t surprise me that many of them are of the shorter variety, 5’3 and under. Taller ladies carry the same checklist of requirements and they are also strict, sometimes even more extreme about wanting a taller man. This usually means by rule that he has to be taller than her when she wears heels. LOL, not to despair because I’ve had the good fortune of meeting some taller women who welcomed me approaching them! Wish more would feel the same. I will admit that I have a severe weakness for women with big boobs, long legs, good curves, well groomed hands and freshly pedicured feet. Not gonna lie about it or ignore what turns me on. Why should I? Do I deserved to be called a creep because of this? I think not! I’ve owned up to my personal preference for tall women despite the associated difficulties that go with being a shorter guy who has an attraction for them. It’s hard not to avoid them at times because the vibe I get from some tall ladies when trying to make eye contact isn’t always pleasant. In fact, my second mind has saved me from ridicule and some harsh rejections.
So from the result of what Evan is saying here, I don’t actively seek out or approach any woman who’s not at least 5’8 but I don’t reject the shorter ladies who look my way either. She’s gotta be taller than me but I don’t demand it. I might get rejected a lot more because of western culture’s stupid height rules but it’s worth knowing where I stand with the taller ladies. There are lots of beautiful short women who in turn have the strongest reservations against dating men in the 5’5/5’6 range. All the reason why I’ll take my chances on the 5’9, 5’10, 5′ 11 or 6 foot + lady who doesn’t have issues being the bigger spoon.
Women say men are shallow? Well, some in this thread have identified height and being tall with attractiveness. So what does this say about height in the other direction? A short guy can’t be attractive just because he’s not tall? Imagine if a guy said a woman is not attractive because she doesn’t have big boobs? Imagine if a guy said a woman is not attractive because she has no butt? Imagine if a guy said a woman is no attractive because her feet and hands are bigger than his?
Dude would be taken to the cleaners by every group who chooses to take offense with him even though it’s his personal preference, not a requirement.
Wes says
Kofybean 141
I don’t think the word “preference “is the right word here. “Requirement” sounds more accurate to me when speaking about women choosing partners in relationships. It’s totally OK to have physical preferences. Nothing wrong with that really. IMO it’s not OK when someone refuses to notice other attractive qualities and passes negative judgement about that person without no real merit. The person judging the other is usually has their own issues. Their perception is severely clouded in superficiality because they refuse to see anything else a person has to offer.
I know what I like physically in a woman and yes, they are my preferences. The difference is that I allow room for women who are physically outside of my preference because I strongly believe her mind and her attitude trumps anything related to physical looks. There has to be a definite attraction factor in order for me to pursue a lady but I don’t have a strict checklist of requirements like most women have. It’s amazing how a woman can rule out a guy and render him worthless just because he doesn’t stand X amount of inches tall. The high heels factor contributes to this shallow behaviour immensely. If a guy is not tall enough when she wears a specific pair of shoes, he’s disqualified as a partner. This, I strongly believe is why the notion of women being more shallow and superficial than guys makes a lot of sense. Nothing else matters to many women except his height. If he’s tall, he gets a free pass. Nothing else has to match up or be qualitative for her to be attracted to him as long as he’s tall.
For me, sometimes all it takes is one physical characteristic that catches my eye and makes me want to pursue her further. It doesn’t matter if everything else about her is physically not up to par with what I find attractive in a woman. It’s certainly not a here-all, end-all, deal-breaking situation if she’s doesn’t match up to my physical aspirations. Again, all it takes is one aspect of her to be attractive to me. I’ll find the rest quite easily if her personality turns me on! Her mind is the real “drawing” power and her spirit defines the “staying” power. Physical looks are added bonuses that only diminish over time.
Karmic Equation says
Why can’t height be an “attraction” factor for women?
Frankly many short men have unattractive leg-torso ratios. Some men, their legs are so short, when compared to their torsos, they remind me of monkeys. Other short men have legs so long, they look like they’re missing torsos. Both, to me, are really unattractive.
Then on the other side of that, I’ve noticed very very handsome men who are well-proportioned, but short. Those men date girls who look like supermodels (and taller than they) and won’t give average me a second look.
If men can be T&A or T or A guys, why can’t women be “height” gals?
In fact, women’s preferences for men’s looks are so varied, that you CAN’T pigeonhole women to T or A equivalents in men. Except for maybe height. And that seems to be universal. Which probably means this need women have for height is more evo-psych based than superficial.
Eric says
I’ve only known a couple really short guys with odd proportions, but they are all exactly as you describe: long torsos and short legs. Tall guys are often better-proportioned, I’ll admit, but it isn’t invariable. They’re also (from my observations) exponentially more likely to have disproportionately-long legs and/or be extremely awkward. Guys in my size range and below are almost never awkward walkers, while people of bother genders that are above average in height are very likely to be.
Personally, I have a weird effect along that “well-proportioned, but short” thing. I’m average-husky, bright, confident, and apparently decent looking (just short), but in pictures, even with objects to set the scale, women instinctively imagine me at least 6′ tall. It doesn’t reduce the rejection, but I hear about it every time, even if I was very clear and open about my height.
The fact is that the rejection is very real and really hurts.
Scooter says
1) The leg-torso ratio discrepancy isn’t exclusive to short guys, or even majorly seen in short guys. From my anecdotal evidence, it runs the population, for men and women. So that point is moot.
2) You’re missing the point. Most women have a height requirement.
Yes, there are some men who are Tand/orA fetishists, but I’d be willing to bet my life that most men don’t have a single attribute that defines a woman as attractive. As has been said in the commentary herein: attractive is attractive. For F-sake.. I’m not going to reject a gorgeous blonde with an athletic body, just because she’s an A-cup. (I have a friend who is exactly that.. and she’s 40.. and she can still hang with women half-her age) Most men would agree with me.
BUT, most women will reject short men OUTRIGHT, no matter how attractive he may be in other respects. This is the problem. And before you say, “Errr hum dummm.. but womens shewd be ables to pik whosevers”, know that I agree. But there’s one problem here:
The societal taboo against dating short men is so overwhelming, that there are many women willing to date fantastic men who are shorter than them, but are afraid to do so due to being ridiculed and ostracized.
It’s THAT strong.. I know because I dated a taller woman when I was in my 20s (Am now 43). 5″ taller, to be exact.. and we had to face public ridicule too often, just in going to restaurants. It was awful, and I doubt times have changed, that much.
Many women.. MANY women I have approached in the past have not explicitly said as much, but I could tell. I could see they were genuinely interested, but skirted around the issue of dating because they were scared.
Now you tell me, how f-ed up is that?
Karmic Equation says
Scooter,
You’ve got to get rid of that chip on your shoulder.
Ironically, that chip is there because, yes, there is discrimination against short men in the world. If the world didn’t discriminate against you because you were short, you wouldn’t have that chip. But you do have that chip. Tall men don’t have that chip. So, unfortunately, some short guys DO have an attitude that tall guys will never have.
While you may not change the world, getting rid of your chip may make dating a little easier for you. Because from here, that chip is big and unattractive.
And you know, short guys can have average to ugly faces, just like tall guys can. Short guys can be jerks as well as white knights. So if a woman doesn’t want to date you, it could be because she doesn’t find your face or attitude appealing, not your height.
Obviously, if a woman says outright that she won’t date you because you’re short, then those women weren’t “the one” for you no matter how attracted you were to them. They did you a favor and didn’t let you waste your time or money on them.
“The One” won’t care about your height. Simple as that.
But odds are, she’s going to care about that chip on your shoulder once she gets to know you.
And if she dumps you, odds are you’re going to blame the fact you were short. When in fact, it’s the chip on your shoulder that made you unattractive.
Scooter says
karmic, don’t you think it’s a bit ridiculous to say tall men don’t have a chip? Yes, they have chips of all sizes and types. You’re using confirmation bias. If you go back and look, I’m pretty sure that you’ll find every response I’ve had in this topic, had been to debunk and criticize illogical prejudice against short men. If you want to call that a chip, go right ahead. I call it for sticking up for what’s right, and not allowing people like me to be marginalized.
And I absolutely don’t bring this to women I meet. That’s another mistake you make. You have no idea what I’m like in real life, and if you were to meet me and discuss this, I guarantee you I would do so in a calm and logical manner. Things get lost in translation in message boards, and people often assume things that aren’t there. So I ask you to believe me when I say, I don’t go around screaming. I’m very logical, and level-headed. Bottom line, attack the message, not the messenger.
I know that short men can be rejected for any number of reasons that have nothing to do with height. I’ve never said otherwise. But my anecdotal evidence, and that of other short men strongly points towards height being the major factor. And if you really really need for this to be proven, I’m sure you could google any number of studies that would make this point very concrete.
Thanks for listening.
Tom10 says
@ Scooter
I feel for you dude: there’s no doubt about it that dating is unfair, and it’s very unfair on short men. I don’t comment on height here too much because I’m an unwitting benefactor of this issue. I was quite a small lad until I was about 16 or so, then I went through a growth spurt and doubled in size in two years. And I have to admit that it was like receiving a gold ticket dating-wise. However, I have other issues to deal with so it’s a mixed bag. The main problem with height is how visible and ubiquitous the preference is: other issues can be hidden until you’ve managed to get your foot in the door.
However, no matter how hard you try to convince women and the world how wrong their preferences are and no matter how many comments you write here, you are fighting a losing battle: women will still want what they want. I tend to agree with Karmic that women like tall men for instinctual reasons rather than for societal acceptance that you think is their motivation. Ultimately all you can do is accept the world as it is, accept women for having whatever preferences they want, and then make peace with it.
We all have our crosses to bear: it’s how we deal with them that counts.
Scooter says
Hey Tom, I want to thank you for the thoughtful reply. I appreciate your inclusion of life experience that allows you to be empathetic to men like me. However, I will have to respectfully disagree. There are a few studies out there which conclude that the preference is a strongly reinforced social construct. But in the end, the result is the same.
My purpose here isn’t to try and change attraction for those women who genuinely aren’t drawn towards shorter men.
I endeavor to expose the baseless prejudice in hopes that some women will understand it. I realize that it’s an uphill battle, and being in my 40s, I hold no hope that I will benefit. However, I hope to be part of the chorus that does enable change in the future.
Let’s at least try to arrive at a time where a height “mismatched” couple can go out for pizza, without fear of social retribution. Or ridicule from family and friends.
I also wish for the bullying, and work-place disparities to disappear. But, that’s outside of the scope of this message board topic.
ian says
I am short male 5ft 6 through out my life I have always felt inferior especially up against a beautiful tall woman. So I never married.
Women prefer tall men it is not only genetic that they have tall healthy children, but they also feel secure with a tall man. No woman like a short man unless he is wealthy. Lets face it a short man against a tall woman looks sick, nature places an unfair burden on us our bodies are the crap made out of this earthly substance, our souls are eternal and no doubt much bigger than the woman who puts us down, but in a world where we only see the surface where beauty is only skin deep. We fail to see the real being housed in this useless earthly body.
Scooter says
Look man, I hope one day you find the confidence to pull yourself up. But for now, I can see you have been beaten down so badly inside, that you just want to give up.
That being said, don’t include this short guy in your description. I have been frustrated. I am aware of the problem, and its origins. I know the prejudice, as do you.
I’ve also been married, and dated some fantastic women. And you know what, if I weren’t so shy and beaten down as you were, when I was younger? If I had confidence, I probably could have dated more of them. Not saying EVERY short guy can do it, because certainly, it takes a set of assets (just as it would, even for taller men).
But unless you hunker down, improve yourself, and try, you’ll never know. And when you hit 40, 50, and 60, you’ll hate yourself even more.
Stephanie says
I think Vanessa has a great point. Yes, this article is directed at women, about their views on height, and I think it’s a message a lot of them need to hear. However, what’s the point of us being open to dating different sized men if they continue to hold up the height standard? At that point, it’s not US shrinking the size of the pool of men interested in dating us. My last serious boyfriend was the same height as me without shoes, and he actually told me that he didn’t like it when I wore heels!
Wes says
There are some guys who won’t go near taller women because past experiences have taught them to avoid the most obvious of rejections. I personally think it’s wrong to group an entire sector of women and judge them based on a singular bad experience or a failed attempt, especially if she was taller. Despite knowing this I can understand why some short guys don’t bother with taller ladies. It’s storybook obvious really. From day one, little girls grow up wanting to be princesses with a taller prince on her arm. Society brainwashes the weaker minded women ad nauseam wth the traditional taller man/shorter woman image as the ideal couple. Guys who don’t fit the image or look the part of the tall knight in shining armor are the outsiders and outcasts. There are men who have thicker skins than others and have no problems enduring a ton of rejections. They’ll absorb whatever punishment if it means landing the woman who matches up best physically. For other guys, the clear solution to finding happiness in the dating world without the tall girl embarrassment is to simply aim for the lower ladies. Smart money says go for the women who are height accessible by social norms, meaning she must be as short or shorter. Lots of tall women are crazy strict about wanting an equally tall or taller guy to begin with. The ones who do accept shorter guys generally have a rule that he can’t be more than two inches shorter than she is. I never understood how a woman could be so utterly blatant in shrinking her dating pool just to hold out for a tall guy.
So I will say truthfully that it’s not entirely accurate that average height or shorter guys aren’t interested in taller women. I know quite a few guys who have no problems dating taller women. Include myself as one of them. I can’t say the same in reverse because I haven’t met that many tall women who say they have no problems dating a shorter guy. Tons of them say they find absolutely no attraction in shorter men with his height being the primary deciding factor against him. Doesn’t matter how good looking the guy is, or how fit his body is. If he doesn’t stand X amount of inches tall or look good when she wears heels, he’s immediately considered unattractive. The disturbing part of all of this is that these women don’t believe they should be at fault for having those preferences. On the other hand, a guy who refuses to date a woman who’s any combination of heavier, bigger or taller than him is a shallow pig.
fantom says
I love how so many women here are saying height doesn’t matter, as to not appear superficial to themselves, but then add in the disclaimer that their fiance, boyfriend, or hubby are 6′, LOL
Bryan says
Girls who have tall boyfriends are always mentioning their bf’s height, like dropping it into conversations at any given opportunity. OK, we get it, you got yourself a tall boyfriend and you’re very proud of it. Well done you. Now can you just stop lol?
Diane says
Tall men are just hotter to me, it’s not that I’ve been conditioned to think that by the media or society, it’s just a natural attraction I have. My boyfriend is 6’2 and I LOVE it. His height makes me feel safe and secure and means I can wear my heels wherever I like.
Women’s preference for tall men is no different to men liking women with ample breasts – it’s a physical feature that emphasises their sex.
tamara says
Ok it may be a natural attraction, but that doesn’t make it smart. We don’t have to be slaves to biology. Research shows that evolutionary biology makes men prefer women with “large eyes, a small jaw, chin, and nose, full lips, firm, symmetrical breasts, unblemished skin, and a waist-hip ratio of 0.7”. Other preferences include “high forehead, high cheekbones, and wide-set eyes”, plus of course youthfulness. Lots of women complain about men being shallow, but I just can’t see many men refusing to date a woman just cos she lacked one of these ideal characteristics.
The only similarity I see is many men refusing to date women older than them. Similarly I could understand women refusing to date shorter guys. But as long as he’s at least a bit taller than the woman in question, I just don’t understand why the height is an issue. There are soo many more impt things to be picky about. A woman only wanting guys above 6 feet tall when a lady is 5 feet 4 inches is like those men who are in their 50s and will only date women in their 20s. It’s extreme and looks kinda foolish.
Scooter says
It’s very different. It’s also very obvious, that you haven’t read previous comments.
Maybe for you it’s a natural attraction. But what about for other women who list it as a requirement, due to the societal taboo against dating shorter men?
Sandra Lerga says
THANK YOU CAT! For standing up for what is important to YOU! And Goldie i think you are the one who bought into limiting yourself and so are “uncomfortable” with Cat getting what she wanted which is a man taller than her in this case. Why does it bother you so much?
There ARE enough tall men out there and YOU ARE ALLOWED TO WANT WHAT YOU WANT.
Im sorry but you need to be physically attracted to your partner and if height is one of the requirements that get you going so have it for crying out loud! Of course we know that qualities of kindness, generosity, love, compassion and maturity as best as we can are absolutely vital for a deep and loving partnership and those come in all shapes and sizes but as a 5’10” women myself I will not date a man shorter than me. I don’t care if he is the good Christ dipped in chocolate its a no for me. it turns me off if he;s 5’8..i can’t do it! On top of it I’m athletic so i need my man to be taller and stronger than me so I can enjoy feeling like a woman. And I’m sharing this from experience out there dating right now- I am open to him winning me over with his wit, his depth, his intelligence, his wealth, his generous heart, his love of nature etc ..but people if you do not want to bed him or make out with him for hours FO’GETABOUTIT! And i even dated guys which are not my turn on so i can maybe see something grow and Bottom line is: IT WON’T.
You gotta be attracted to your love AND WHATEVER THAT IS FOR YOU, IS RIGHT. BASTA. That’s it! I saw a letter this Even guy answered advising this woman who has been in a 13 yr attraction-less marriage with a really good guy who’s loved her so unconditionally for years and with whom she “sometimes” had good sex with and loved him and respected him but was not in love with to STAY. If thats not settling then i don’t know what is!
Kevin says
I think you’re missing the point. You don’t have to date, kiss, sleep with, or marry anyone you’re not interested in. If you want to set the height bar at 6’5″ with a 7 figure income, multiple degrees, fluency in no less than 5 languages, and a passion for dogs, go ahead!! That’s your right AND your choice. If it works for you, great! May you meet the man or woman of your dreams and live happily ever after. However, if you can’t find anyone who matches your requirements, EMK is suggesting you consider altering your requirements and a good place to start might be height. If shorter men don’t do it for you, fine. Maybe relax your income or education requirements. Maybe consider dating bald men or guys with kids. Still no? Maybe there’s another requirement you can loosen a bit. Whatever you decide, know that the more requirements you have, the smaller the pool becomes. That’s all and it applies to men as well as women.
Mikko says
Of course, men generally know that tall women want men that are taller than themselves. It is not like most men get off on rejection. So, most will not even bother. If you are a taller woman, you most likely rejected several decent men because they were not tall enough. So, your dating pool will only shrink as your get older. Then again tall women will do better than short men who typically stay single for long periods.
Personally, I am acquainted with a few very tall men 6’3″- 6’7″ who married women around 5’1″. So, at least for those tall men there are factors more important than height in picking a partner. Of course, tall men picking average height mates will only reduce the dating pool for tall women.
Some tall women are stunners. Then again, many very tall women evidently have hormonal issues that gives them elongated faces and masculine jaw lines. So, height sometimes comes with a bad package.
cathy says
I am a 5’10 woman and I like a like who is at least 6’2. I have had a partner who was 6’1 and another 6’0 and I always felt the energy was not as great. I may have to lower my criteria after dating a 6’2 liar for the past few years and find a shorter man who really loves me for myself. But it is going to be hard – because I am very physical and athletic.
Now for all the tall men who date smaller women, I used to think they liked smaller women. But I have had a few girlfriends around 5′ who would not date anyone shorter than 6’2 when I was with men my height! It makes them feel stronger. For me it is more a question of balance given my height. I don’t like someone too tall either, but I like a man at least 4 inches taller. Tough to be on the outside of the bell curve for a tall woman and a small man!
Scooter says
You’re about the 100th woman here (hyperbole, I know) to say something to the effect of, “I need a taller guy because I am athletic and tall and need someone stronger than me and BLAH BLAH” (BLAH = illogical gibberish)Why can’t women get it through their heads: taller does not equal stronger or more athletic, or able to defend oneself with superior skill. In fact, when has height EVER equated to superior self-defense capability, or athleticism? Reach isn’t everything. So that argument for height is ridiculously false.
I’m 5’5. I am willing to ask women of any height out (even 5’10), should the opportunity present itself, and I feel an attraction. I’m going to tell you outside of a few women who were professional bodybuilders or the like, I have never gone out with a woman stronger than me. So that argument is moot.
As for the whole “feeling protected” rhetoric? It’s baloney. You can’t tell me that being taller means he will be a better protector. But beyond that, let me ask this question:
In this day and age, especially in the more civilized countries, and definitely in the more affluent areas, why the hell do you feel that you need to be “protected”? What.. are you scared of being jumped when you go to the grocery store, with your man? You think that the waiter is suddenly going to become psycho at a restaurant, and thus need your man to jump in with fork and butter knife in hand?
No no no no.. any man or woman who thinks about this for half a minute, with a modicum of logic will recognize that it isn’t about protection, or wearing heels, or hugging in public.
It’s about the fear of social backlash from the public, friends, and family, if one is seen with a shorter guy, due to the irrational societal taboo.
It’s about breaking an antiquated, absurd social directive. It’s about indoctrination into believing that literally 3-5″ is the difference between what makes a male masculine, r not.
And let me remind those women who are NATURALLY attracted to men taller than them, this post is not completely aimed at you. Date who you want. However, all I and other rational, empathetic being ask, is that you don’t perpetuate the hate, by contributing to the ridicule.
Kate says
My husband is 5’6″ and EASILY the hottest man I’ve ever seen. Shorter guys are the most attractive, hands down. Nothing against taller guys, just my opinion.
Rebecca says
I’m 5’9″ so half the men I meet are shorter than me and I don’t think I’ve dated anyone shorter than me. The first time I dated a guy who was 5’9″, he insisted, just for the time we were dating (we were friends before and after that) that he was 5’10”. I recently met a guy online who is 5’10” and he asked me to not wear heels when we were out together. I confess when I was dating 6’4″ Mikey, I found his size and his deep baritone really sexy, and then I never fell in love with another 6’4″ baritone. Whatever. The guy I’m totally crushing on right now is my height and a tenor, with the most beautiful thick, curly salt-and-pepper hair and intense dark eyes, and he’s just as hot in his own way. Everyone who is attractive (to me) is attractive in his own unique way. Thank goodness!
scott says
Im 5’7 and cant change that. A fat woman can go to the gym. Both men and women are “shallow” but at least men are fair about it. Wouldnt matter if Im intelligent, rich or anything else. Women want tall men. I dont know a man alive who would not date a woman based on her height. And please, tall ladies, youve no clue, of course shorter men are attracted to you. All men are attracted to you, as long as you are not fat. And guess what fat girls, you can change your body so quit sobbing and start biking or hiking or ANYTHING. And be grateful that you can change yourself to be more attractive. I cant. Theres no gym to make me taller, so please shut the fuck up and get on the treadmill already.
Scooter says
Scott, I get your point and all.. but that was way too rude. You can relay your thoughts in a succinct and benign manner, simply by thinking of the social issues, what is wrong with them, and thus understanding why women think this way. You and I both know it’s bs perpetuated in a vicious cycle, but screaming bloody murder at the women won’t help.
Scott says
Sup Scooter. You might not like my choice of words, but was there a single sentence I typed that isn’t true?
I have no pity for fat people, they have the power to change their condition, yet I am judged by a factor I can’t control at all? And I have to feel sorry for them because society gives them a pass, and pretend they’re not fat? Half of America has diabetes, and society as a whole has to bear that responsibility. Fat people need a wake up call. I might sound like a jerk but I’m also right.
And yes, I understand the argument that it’s evolutionary for women to want a taller man. But we’re not in caveman times any more, we have rule of law, so it’s a weak argument designed to make themselves feel better about being so shallow. What, ladies, you can’t control your cave woman impulses?
You see Scooter, in my opinion, most women won’t admit they are just as shallow if not more shallow than men. They like to have a scapegoat (it’s evolutionary) because they’re such overbearing narcissists they can’t admit their faults. Then those same women are appalled at a man’s evolutionary caveman instinct for 36 24 36.
Anyhow Scooter thanks for your reply.
Update: I’m still unattractive because I’m short. Thanks!
Kate says
No way, Scooter. 5’7″ is HOT. It’s like the perfect height. Not every woman wants a tall guy. My husband is your height and he is friggin’ hot. His height was one of the first things about him that I found attractive. To me, tall guys seem like awkward adolescents. No offense to tall guys, it’s just my preference. Scooter, when I was in my twenties, I was seriously gorgeous, no joke. And I was only attracted to guys under 5’8″. You’re insinuating that women won’t want you because of your height? Just find the women prefer short guys, or don’t care about height one way or the other. People underestimate how many of us there are.
Karmic Equation says
Handsomeness can offset shortness to a degree, a la Tom Cruise.
But, ya, if you’re short AND ugly, you’re done.
But you know what, TALL and ugly won’t get much either.
So a man’s height may be the dealbreaker for some, or maybe even for most, women, however, it’s not a dealbreaker for ALL women.
Your job is to find those women. But unfortunately they may be the overweight ones. Or may be they’re in good shape but older than you. Or maybe they’re “average-looking” instead of “cute”.
Everyone is entitled to the criteria they find attractive. Being mad at that is a waste of time and has made you bitter.
I would suggest you stop being angry and go out and find women who does find you attractive. Just change some of YOUR criteria.
Scooter says
“can offset shortness to a degree, a la Tom Cruise”
In reading your comments on this topic, I sometimes wonder if you view it as some kind of disability? It’s logically a neutral trait. Just like ethnicity. Unfortunately, like ethnicity, it has been reinforced so negatively as to become an “-ism”.
And Tom Cruise dated Nicole Kidman, among other very attractive women. I’d say he more than “offset it”; it appears not to have mattered much to those women.
Adreana says
You make a good point, Karmic. A handsome, shorter guy will still be desired by many women ( especially if he walks proud ).
But if a guy is short AND ugly then he might have better luck pursuing homely looking types….
Add bitterness to short and ugly and he will have no chances at all.
DeeGee says
Karmic Equation said: “I would suggest you stop being angry and go out and find women who does find you attractive. Just change some of YOUR criteria.”
The vast majority of women’s criteria is (in whichever order she prefers): tall, dark, handsome, wealthy, famous.
This includes even the women who are average and below average, that is their criteria in men also.
And most women will not compromise on that criteria until they feel their biological clock running out.
So a man changing HIS criteria isn’t going to do a heck of a lot, or haven’t you been reading Evan’s blog like the rest of us?
The OKCupid blog post about how men and women rate each other is a prime example of what men face. (if you didn’t see it, the women studied had rated 80% of men as below average).
And regarding Tom Cruise, he is wealthy and famous. For women who prefer tall men, wealth and/or fame are the great equalizers.
This isn’t new information. Stereotypes become stereotypes for a reason.
Michael says
I do not think height is everything, I am an over 6 feet tall male, almost 6’1″ and many women have chosen shorter men over me for various reasons. I think women do pay attention to me but there are a lot of factors to consider when women choose men, and its not just how tall a guy is, look at Hollywood and the music industry, there are many famous people who are of average or below average stature, yet are very successful and definitely good when it comes to the opposite sex.
Even being my height, you have men who are even taller, two of my best friends are 6’3″ and 6’4″, so they got even more height than I do, apparently though I heard there is a height limit where men become “threatening” to potential female mates, I heard usually the ideal tall threshold from men is 5-11 to 6-2 and beyond this range men can appear “threatening” to women. I have even witnessed incidents where a woman at my job felt threatened by a co-worker who was 6’5″, so height actually worked against this guy.
It is also indeed true that there a lot of men uncomfortable dating women who are tall, those who are 5’10” or more.
That beings said when I was pursuing a particular mate, she actually had chosen a much shorter man over me, I believe he was around 5’5″, he is a co-worker of mine but I know that for a fact he is much shorter than me, but he was older and had a higher paying job and position than I, so I think the maturity and his financial state helped him.
Amanda says
Everyone is missing the most important reason why women go for taller men – biological! It is inbuilt, instinctive. Science tells us we seek out the taller, stronger, safe and protective men as basically a reflex, it comes naturally. All to do with producing the strongest and healthiest offspring.
I’m 5’9 and find shorter men ‘weak’ in my eyes. No matter how much I try to tell myself otherwise. I just don’t find them attractive at all. I need my partner to wield some strength, power and height assists that.
Shepherd says
Yeah, I don’t get the whole tall guy thing. I like short guys. I went to the doctor the other day and I measured 5’8 1/2″. The men that I’ve dated have all been about my height, give or take an inch, but that’s been more coincidence than anything else. I’d be totally down with a guy who was significantly shorter. I had a man who was interested in me who came up to my shoulder and the reason I kept turning him down had nothing to do with height.
Scooter says
Okay, your “instinct” is fine. Roll with it. Just understand that there are many women out there who don’t feel the same as you, but are scared to date shorter men due to the taboo against it.
I don’t think you know “science” well at all, and your “appeal to nature” fallacy is a shining beacon of this fact. But whatever.. all I ask is that you don’t perpetuate the hate against shorter men.
sc44534 says
I’m a woman and I never liked really tall men for some reason. I like guys between 5’8″ and 5’10”. I am 5′ 3.5″. Shorter guys are more down to earth, imo. I did marry a guy who is 5’8.5″, the only problem is that my son ended up being only about 5′ 6″…..but he was only 5lbs at birth. I do have a brother who is over 6′ so there are tall genes in the family gene pool…..My mother was 5’5″ and my dad was 5’10”.
I think personality and intelligence is more important than height. I also like someone with a sense of humor.
Amanda says
I guess it all comes down to how one carries themself. Confidence is really attractive. I’ve also found shorter men to be more down to earth. However they do lie about their height a lot. Often I’ve met men who say they’re 5’10 but are clearly 5’7. They obviously feel pressure to fulfil the height requirement needs of women.
Almasy says
It’s a shame that nature gave both short and tall men the same biological need for love, affection and a drive to procreate.
It’s inbuilt and instinctive.
While we’re at it, since most human behavior is biologically driven and haves and have nots based, we should also be accepting and understanding of:
world hunger
war
social injustice
gender inequality
poverty
fill-in-the-blank discrimination
Nottoshort says
My take is that there are a lot of women who just are not interested in dating average height or slightly below men, as the article relates. I report my height at 5’9″ but am closer to 5’8″. I get very few views of my profile, and I would consider my looks to be slightly above average and my stats to be well above. It’s frustrating to get dissed by women who are 5’5″ to 5’7″, because they filter out anyone less than 6′.
Bruno says
Women requiring guys over 6 feet tall is akin to men only dating girls under 25 — when the guy is in his 50’s. A man can’t change his height and a woman can’t change her age. Men are bashed for wanting very young women, but it’s okay for women to rebuff average height men?
bruno says
Funny…Men really don’t maintain a checklist. OMG. Either you like the person or you don’t. Give me a break. Women are so engrossed in the perceptions of others that they don’t have the freedom to develop their own.
bruno says
Oh, I have a fitness requirement, not a weight requirement for dates. How does height correlate with fitness level…not at all.
bruno says
Less than 10 % of men in my age group are 6 feet or taller. These women are rejecting 90% of all men. What makes them so special? If they were that hot they would not need a dating coach or service– get real ladies.
Evelyn says
Ridiculous statement. Hot women don’t need a dating coach? Really?
bruno says
One issue to consider is power. Women often want to be controlled and they have no respect for short guys. So they need bigger guys who are taller and heavier to provide that father figure comfort.
Amanda says
Bruno has it almost spot on. Women instinctively like to be controlled, in the sense too of feeling safe and protected. Shorter than them men dont provide this security.
Amy says
Speak for yourself.
Scooter says
No.. for YOU they don’t provide this security.
Please.. keep your biased views out of it. Height does NOT necessarily mean your man is going to be able to protect you.
Besides, as I asked above, exactly what do you need to be protected from? Where the hell do you live? Gaza?
Amanda says
So many of you are forgetting (or ignoring) that biology is the key factor in this. Nature intended we seek the ‘best’ for procreation. That isn’t something we can change. Sure it can be overlooked, evidenced by the many taller women with short men. But that doesn’t for a second mean our biological urge and instinct doesn’t want what nature intended.
Men commenting here have an air of arrogance about them. Boasting their other attributes in an effort to deflect from the obvious – they are short and majority of women don’t seek men who lack in stature. That is just fact and the sooner you realise it the better. Acceptance of self goes a long way.
It is no wonder there is such a thing as SMS = short man syndrome. More often than not short men tend to be arrogant, selfish and controlling. As if trying to make up for height but go about it in the wrong way. If you’re short, own it but don’t assume for one second we women like toffee nosed, inconsiderate and condescending partners. This is how you come across.
Also too, don’t label all women with short men as still wanting someone taller. Who are you to know their mind?
I dated a short man once and all he ever focused on was his height. Wouldn’t allow me to wear heels, insisted on walking ahead of me and where possible, stood on for eg higher step as if trying to prove his masculinity. Not once had I ever mentioned height, yet he persisted in acting like an imbecile. That was the turn off. The fact he was so intent on being the taller one. Thus treating me poorly in the process.
Short men thinking and behaving in such a way cannot be blamed on women. Like women have an inner urge to find the taller, stronger male; men too have inner desire and urge to be that man. It is science. Nothing to do with attitude or choice.. Men can bleat that it is until the cows come home but deep down they know biology is the reason.
My suggestion for short men is to channel confidence. That in itself is attractive and shows strength and protection. Two of the things biology dictates in seeking a mate. But don’t graduate this to arrogance. That is a very unattractive thing to be seen.
John says
Its women’s biology to want a tall man. Ok
It’s men biology to spread his seed with as many as women as possible.
I’ll take that rationale thank you.
TallFemale says
Having scrolled through all six pages of comments, I feel this recurring, underlying theme of tall-women-bashing as well as the more obvious short-man-bashing. Being 5ft 9in myself, I’ve had issues with self-body image for several years and only recently have began to accept it as an uncontrollable part of me.
Whilst I’m in no position to berate men for their honesty in expressing their personal preferences – namely being ladies on the ‘petite’ end of the spectrum – it seems it’s the women who are taking more obvious digs. Whether it be happily talking about their exceptional ease in finding taller men to date (“my boyfriend/ex-boyfriends/husband were 6ft+ and I LOVED IT”); otherwise, I’m reading generalizations about tall women that, admittedly, I’m offended by. Because it’s very clear that they were written with the intention of indirectly offending tall women, and simultaneously making the petite author feel a false sense of superiority.
That tall women are intimidating, have “elongated faces and masculine jawlines”, are likelier to be alone amongst other things.
Yes, a lot of tall women have a preference for men their height or taller, mainly because they feel more comfortable in that situation than being given dirty looks and ridiculed by perfect strangers as they walk down the street with shorter guys. Yes, there are also some tall women who are open minded and give shorter men a chance. But to say that tall women are picky and harsh and DON’T get the short end of the stick at least 80% of the time is unfair and completely untrue.
Karl R says
TallFemale,
You must live in a city with an extraordinarily high number of extremely rude people. Perhaps you may wish to consider moving to a city where people are more courteous, simply to improve your overall quality of life.
My wife and I are not the average couple. She is 16 years older than me. In the entire time that we’ve been together, nobody has ridiculed the age difference between us. Nobody has given us a dirty look. People either accept that she’s significantly older than me, or they keep their opinion to themselves.
And if anyone ever does make a rude remark or behave rudely toward us, I will call them out for being rude.
Have you ever been ridiculed for dating someone shorter than you, or is this just something you imagine would happen? While it’s possible that you live in an incredibly rude city, I find it far more likely that you’re imagining persecution that would never actually happen in the real world.
Furthermore, people will take their cues from you. If you date a shorter man, and you act embarrassed about the height difference, people will follow your lead and treat it like it’s something shameful. My wife and I believe that there’s nothing wrong with the age difference between us. Our actions reflect that belief. Other people take their cue from us, and see nothing wrong with the age gap.
Scooter says
Uhh no Karl. While I like your other posts, you are dead-wrong here. Age difference is not even close to being as taboo as height difference.
And YES, the ridicule is real. I doubt moving to another city in this country would change it much.
Jay says
It’s comical…
it’s ok for women to say they want a tall man, but it’s not ok for men to say we want a woman with big breasts.
Think about it.
OlBlueEyes says
Wow. I’m 6’4″ and have never had a girlfriend. Exception that proves the rule, I guess.
Heidi says
I am 5FT3 …and a half….(the half is important) and I have dated men of all types. Shortest boyfriend was 5FT4 and as much as it didnt change the fact i wanted to be with him it was at times off putting. Didn’t feel quite as attractive as dating a taller guy and thats probably something appealing to the need to be protected woman in me but it is what it is.
When I went online dating after my marriage broke up I must admit my search and preferences were for men 5FT8 and above because with online dating you can be selective on who you look up and observe. Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t ever find anyone under that height attractive just I had a preference and had enough interest in me on the website to be picky a little.
The man I am in a relationship now is 6FT1, he also plays Rugby so is an overall big guy. Before him i used to think I had a type for your more athletic build (by this i mean slimmer running type) now i would never go back to that if we split I love it so much. Point is you should remain open but not to the point where you feel uncomfortable. If I had stuck to my rule around physique I would never have been with my partner and realized how much i prefer the way he is built!!
Sven says
My girlfriend and I are exactly the same height. It doesn’t seem to bother her at all (she doesn’t wear heels), and it certainly doesn’t bother me, I find her size incredibly sexy and am bursting with pride to be seen with her. We have the same slim build, same eyes and we’re almost exactly the same age. If I were shorter maybe I’d feel differently, but I am delighted with her and she is with me.
We are both just over 5’11.
wayne says
Hello All
I am Wayne, ive just had a quick look about and came across this page, i have really bad difficult dealing with my height, i am only 5ft 4, it dosnt seam as bad when im in the street’s or maybe going to the local shop’s, but dos cross my mind and it dos really hurt, but going to the main super store’s, to see so many random fella’s some quite tall, make’s u feel so weak, i am a good personality guy. but there is nothing u can do about it i guess… i came across something before this one about sex drive can be bad, i was like how the heck i get on this page and what dos this have to do with anything what i searched, i think i have a good sex drive… sorry if i was a tad over rated there. falling small can make your life not good, or make u feel not good, i am not dating, as i just read above, but, i have doen once, once you are in a relationship, the height thing just go’s away, when you are together, only come’s back when you go out lol tbh with how tall people are today i feel im actually shrinking, LOL its the way life is, im in a bad situation now, something’s u can not do anything, but people do get judged and atleast u may find a happy relationship with someone a tad small, no promises though… LMAO… but yeah just 3-4 inch’s would make a massive difference.
TooSmart says
Wayne, I am sorry to read that your lack of height is bothering you so much. Please know that there are many men your height who have found a girlfriend/wife so no reason to feel desperate. Try to accept yourself the way you are and work on your selfconfidence. Nothing is more attractive than a man with confidence. I know it is easier said than done but start by reflecting on what things you can improve in your life which have nothing to do with your height. Whether it is your job, your financial situation, your health and condition. Focus on being the best person you can be, focus on being proud of yourself and push the thoughts of “I am not tall enough to get a girlfriend to the background.” And women will feel that you no longer have so many complexes about your height and will feel more attracted to you. There are far worse things than being on the smaller side. Good luck.
Hic says
I don’t know what you guys are worked out about …
This is a criteria that only shallow women / men put ..
I’m a 5ft 6 guy, probably the only “bad thing” that I have dating wise, sonce I make good money ..
I think that my short height is a blessing, probably the best thign that ever happened to me 🙂 .. simply because life for me is like a dating site and it’s already filtered for me 🙂 ..
All the women that are shallow enough to get worked out about that and put that criteria as very important – just don’t talk to me lol – which is amazing, since I get to only put the effort and interract with the rest !
I’m 28 right now, and I had few amazing relationships in my life .. I watch movies and listen to my friends stories about dating, and Im just amazed how people are crazy sometimes ! Personally Ive never had any kind of stupid problem, because all the women I dated are quality women, who are interested in personality, and compatibility etc, which made all my relationships amazing and lived the best moments of my life because of that !
So a message to short guys, believe me it’s a blessing !!!
And I don’t know this, but I guess same thing goes for women ! if you are tall, and guys don’t approach you because they are insecure mainly, then it’sa good thing! life just gets rid of those people in your life, and you have to date the more intellectual people ..
Jess says
You can compare attraction to weight and height because they are both based on he point of this article which is what people find attractive, irrelevant of whether you can control changing it or not. Someone can be thin and have a fast metabolism that won’t show them as overweight. Usually that won’t matter because you’re attracted to them looking physically slim.
Everyone has all types of preferences for physical attraction, it’s often nothing to do with whether the other person can control it or not. I personally think there are many (not all) men that have far more higher unrealistic standards who need articles like this.
Scooter says
No.. you can not compare the two. You make the same mistakes that so many other women make, in a frantic attempt at self-defense (and then you go on to man-hate, but whatever).
Weight is a strong prognosticator of health. It’s also a sign of beauty, but that’s another subject.
There are probably many women who would date a shorter guy, if they were not scared of the social backlash, due to the strong societal taboo against it.
Yes, women are generally attracted to taller men, but for women today, it seems to be a requirement, NOT a preference. And here is the biggest problem…
Most men don’t weight one or two attributes as deal-breakers in women. However, most women absolutely do view height as a deal-breaker or maker. Even the women I mentioned above, who find certain shorter men attractive, but are too scared to date them, and thus make “taller” a requirement.
Colman says
I’m a girl that is 6 foot and all the guys I’ve met are to my shoulder and it kinda sucks because I wanted someone kinda like my height
TooSmart says
I am a woman and I notice indeed that a lot of women want a tall men. Even women who are really small still want a guy of minimum 6 feet tall. And yes one wonders why since most men are taller than them anyway. It seems that I am somewhat of an exception because I don’t like a guy who is a lot taller than me. I prefer my height or a bit taller. It just feels more comfortable. I don’t want a guy who is smaller than me but since I am 5.5 I don’t think that is asking too much. But I’d rather date a guy who is only my height than one who is a lot taller than me, I just don’t find that attractive. Just prefer a more compact guy, someone a bit like the young Al Pacino for example. Mmmm.
Richard says
There’s Chinese girl about 5 feet 7 same as me. I wanted to date but her requirement for date is crazy. has to be over 6 feet 3 and over and has to be white. She recently broke up her 6 foot 8 white bf, find out that he date other white girl.
Certain just too narrow will only date if you are certain race and height which you can’t change because your nature born. They should instead look more at personality, otherwise they will had short and unfaithful relationship.
David says
As a single, good looking guy, educated, with a successful career, house, cars, etc, being Christian and wanting to get married and start a family I am blown away that women will not reply to my emails, or give me the time of day. I have done online dating off and on for ten years and have mixed results. I have to email twenty to thirty girls to get one response and maybe one date. Why you ask? Well my emails are engaging in conversations, interesting topics, asking questions and I even try to “make her laugh” like they say they want. No matter how clever my emails are, I get no response.
So why have I gotten a 2% response rate out of one hundred and fifty girls I have emailed over the last year? It’s simple. I am 5’6″ in height. I carry myself well because I am in good shape but apparently that doesn’t matter to 95% of women, who even blatantly say “if you’re not 6′, don’t bother.” So what am I to do? Should I lie about my height to get the dates and then when I meet them say, oh by the way. My question to all women is how does height, and money, have anything to do with attraction and compatibility? It doesn’t, women are just very shallow.
A girl who says you have to be this tall to date me or don’t bother is just like a guy saying you have to have this size of boobs and this size of ass to date me.
My new solution is to email a copy of the link to this article to women and say “here read this.” I don’t know what else to do. Online dating has become a necessary evil being a working professional with lost friendships do to marriage.
I am about to give up. At almost 39 years old I feel I have one year left and women will discriminate against me due to height and age.
Adreana says
Have you tried asking out women the traditional way-in person?
Why would women discriminate against your age? I thought this was a problem only women had.
Sabrina says
Evan, I agree with about 99% of what you say, but I disagree here. I’m 5’11” and have dated my share of shorter guys. Here is what I know to be true: shorter guys may want to “date” you, but they don’t want to “marry” you. Guys have just as much of a hang up about height as any woman I’ve ever met or known. Sure, they may think it’s fun to try out, but most guys still want to stand next to a girl and feel like he can protect her somehow. So, sorry. Not buying this theory.
echoes says
YES. Short men certainly want to date me….and I was open to them. I am technically not even tall – but tallish. I am just above average at 5’7. I also have a small frame and weigh 125 lbs, making me smaller than many women shorter than me. Yet, short to average height men will act like I am big. I wear a dress size 2!!!
I have dated as short as 5’4 and many men in the 5’6-5’8 range (which is barely below the USA 5’9 average). Although they pursue me, once we start dating, they start making negative height comments… At first they express insecurity over their own height, then the jabs start to come at me. They drop remarks about “normally preferring petite women” and start to treat me as if I am “large”. They tell me it is okay if I wear heels, but show through body language that they are physically uncomfortable with it. I start to get the impression that dating taller or close to their own height is a novelty, but it is not their ideal, and they wrestle with the idea of ending up with a woman who is not also small in stature.
Ultimately, being larger makes short men feel more masculine, something they strongly desire as society already emasculates shorter men a bit. Even if these short men may date a tallish woman, generally, that is not the one they want to commit to (liking sexual variety is not the same as picking a long-term partner). I have heard many men openly comment that tall women seem masculine to them or that they intimidate them….and while I do not qualify as tall to most people, even slightly below average height men can have that attitude towards me (especially when I wear heels).
I have decided that I do not want someone else’s insecurities used to make me feel bad about my body. I never had a height requirement before, but increasingly I do find myself instinctually gravitating away from men under 5’9 or so (average). I would never rule someone out solely based on height, but the romantic dynamic and male attitudes that are a consequence of height may be a determining factor.
Reading the comments here confirms how insecure many short men can be, and that does not magically go away when they date someone….instead they may turn it on her.
Selena says
Echoes,
We read so much about women (tall or short) having height requirements/preferences and shorter men feeling discriminated against by both tall and short women, that it’s easy not realize that shorter men may also have their own requirements/preferences.
At one time I had a flirtation going with a guy who was probably about 5’6. He asked me my height and when I said 5’2 he said “That’s perfect.” 🙂 A former partner was 5’7 and he thought our 5″ height difference was exactly right. He would tell his younger single friends they should find a woman who was 5″ shorter than themselves because it was the best differential for sex and snuggling.
Perhaps there as many men who prefer women to be shorter than themselves as there are women who prefer men to be taller than they are? Maybe we don’t hear much about men having height preferences because they don’t talk about it publicly. Hmm.
Scooter says
Bullshit. I would date and marry a woman at your height, if she were the right one. No joke. And there are plenty of shorter men I know who feel the exact same way.
So whose anecdotal evidence is better? I dunno.. 🙂
SparklingEmerald says
Scooter said “Bullshit. I would date and marry a woman at your height, if she were the right one.”
The key here, is the part of your rude reply that I have bolded. ” if she were the right one.” Many women would date and even marry a shorter man if he were the right one.
In fact a good friend of mine married a man shorter than her. She had no issue with his height, but he had major issues with HER being taller. Both my husbands were around 5’7″. Not really short, (and not shorter than me) but not the mythical 6 foot height that many men claim is every woman’s minimum height threshold either.
So yes, I acknowledge, that many women do reject men purely on height, but there are many women like me who would not, in fact, I have been rejected twice by short men. Have no idea why. (In both cases we met through a matchmaker or online)
But I have yet to see a male commenter acknowledge that. They still INSIST that every woman who has rejected them has ONLY rejected them based on their height. They call BULLSHIT if it is ever suggested that they just may not “Be the one” for a particular woman for other reasons. They insist that no short guy has rejected a woman based on HER height (being taller) than him EVER, EVER, EVER.
People of all heights, weights, ages and looks reject and get rejected in the dating realm all the time, for all kinds of reasons. Men like you seem to have a chip on your shoulder and expect all women SHOULD date you, even though you may reject them for not “being the one”. Trouble is, you expect ALL women you are interested in to see you “as the one”, and if they don’t you just ASSUME it ‘s because you are short.
Truth is, yes, there are probably plenty of women of many heights that you would marry. And there are probably plenty of women who would date and/or marry you as well. But there are even MORE women who WON’T marry or date you, and there are even MORE women you won’t date or marry either. That’s why dating is so hard, like trying to find a needle in a haystack. It’s pretty much like that for all of us, except for the most beautiful and rich among us. You just seem to demand that ALL women you desire, desire you back and if they don’t you ASSUME it’s because of your height and no other reason. But you give yourself a free pass to reject women “for not being the one”, but allow the women no such thing.
Scooter says
I apologize for my rude reply. With that said, I think you are very wrong on this account. My life experience, and that of other short guys I know (who are not outwardly “angry”, and are in fact very nice people) is that there is a dearth of women who don’t outright reject, based on height.
Oh really? How can a woman tell if a guy is “the one”, if said woman doesn’t even give him a chance? And if such rejection happens a majority of the time? That fact makes your point moot.
Furthermore, please don’t put words into my mouth; I have never said it’s “every” woman. I have only said it’s “most”, and I think most individuals (men and women) who have some experience with this particular social phenomenon, would agree.
Holy moly.. strawman, much?
HUH? Where are you getting this from? Is this some internal dialogue you’re having with yourself? As I just stated, it’s not possible to know if a particular individual is “the one”, when that individual is getting thrown out for a seemingly harmless neutral trait.
Have you spoken to a large number of short men on this subject, and come this conclusion? I doubt it, because I honestly don’t know a single short guy (qualify as <5’8) who thinks that way. Those guys just want to stop being judged as less-than-human, in some cases, just for being shorter. They want the illogical reasoning to be corrected. They simply don’t want to be subject to that kind of prejudice, especially when it comes to their chances at finding happiness in a partner. Is that so hard to grasp?
Uh.. no. You’re totally pulling this out of your you-know-what. I never said that, and never implied it. Please go back and read my posts, and demonstrate otherwise.
Evan Marc Katz says
Okay, Scooter. You’re short. You’re angry. Life is unfair. You’re right. Do you have to yell at every single woman who won’t date a short guy? What’s the endgame here?
Scooter says
Thanks for the reply, Evan, and thank you for agreeing with me.
My only “endgame” is to crystallize the fact that the source of the bigotry really is a result of illogical indoctrination, that’s all.
I’d imagine it’s similar to what any other minority that is unfairly marginalized, might feel. (Generally speaking)
Scooter says
And Evan, I apologize if it seems as if I have gone too far. I am just trying to stick-up for what I believe is right, by pointing out what’s wrong. Dating is ancillary to other problems shorter guys face (although I wholeheartedly admit, it’s a HUGE corollary).
Thank you for helping out guys like me, by speaking out about it.
Look man.. I am just hoping one day I am “allowed” to go out with a taller girl, in public, without the fear of either one of us being ridiculed or chastised.
Amanda says
I’m 5’5″ and with heels 5’7″. And a size 14. I prefer dating a man atleast 3 to 8″ taller, simply because shorter men tend to also be smaller framed and my preference is a man who is larger in frame than myself. It’s a feeling of being held safely. It’s not discriminating against shorter men for height reasons. And by the way, as an average (in America) sized woman, I get discriminated against by men very often because they prefer size 2/4 woman, and 20 years younger. I was never a size 2/4/6/8 even when doing triathlons and biking 200 miles through France. Men are far more judgement of looks requirements in the dating pool, IMHO.
Evelyn says
I do feel bad for short men, because that is something they can’t change. I’m a 5’6″ tall female. I’m fortunate to be in the range where most men are taller than me. In the past, I have been attracted to men of all heights-extremely attracted to one just my height. I know if we had gotten together, it wouldn’t have bothered me. But during the rare times I’ve dated online, my criteria is 6′ and up. My preference for a tall man has increased as I’ve gotten older. I’m sorry, but it just FEELS different to be with a tall man. Walking with him, hugging him, etc. If I randomly meet someone shorter that I’m crazy about, it won’t be a deal breaker. I do think it’s mostly biological. Let those for whom this is a deal breaker continue. I’m sure they realize their chances are reduced, just as I do.
Tammy says
I’m 5’8″ and I spent 16 years with a man who was 2 inches shorter than me. I didn’t mind at first, and he never minded at all, but I felt self-conscious about it for years. It’s my stuff, and I own it, and now I have a preference for men at least 2 inches taller than me. Psychologically, there’s something that makes me feel more physically “safe” with a man who is 4-6 inches taller, compared to a man who is shorter than me. I am a strong, independent woman and I guess I would like a man who feels like a strong “rock” to lean on. A man shorter than me would have to be pretty extraordinary for me to go down that path again.
Stephanie says
I’m a 5″10 woman & even though my husband loves my long legs, he doesn’t care how tall i am compared to his 6″3 250lb frame. I dont think it has anything to do with how tall a man or woman is. As long as she feels protected in her man’s embrace, (he can be any amount of inches shorter than her) as far as she feels he’s 7 feet tall & bulletproof. Men; it’s about how much you show a woman you love her!!(& i dont mean $). I hope someone listens. You can make your woman very happy by just writi g her a love note about how much you care or pickher flowers & she’ll think ylu roped the moon for her!!!
Cory says
I’m 6’6″ and I’ve dated women over 6 feet. The problem we had was that the relationship was it became a power struggle. I understand any relationship will have its struggles and challenges; however, I found dating women closer to my height was more challenging because it was a struggle over who had control in the relationship. I wasn’t looking for control, but I didn’t want to be controlled either. Perhaps I made poor choices with the women I was with; and it caused me to be more reluctant to want to date women closer foy height because I don’t like the idea of being pushed around.
Esther says
I’m 5’9″, which is average for a man, but abnormally tall for a woman. I’m not asking for anything like 6′ or taller, but he has to be at least 5’9″. I just can’t compromise on that. Like, I can be flexible with weight, income, age, and I don’t even care if a guy is divorced with kids, but not the height thing. And I think that women who are lucky enough to be petite have no right to complain if a guy is 5’7″. At least you can date him without looking stupid.
Scooter says
Why would it look stupid? Oh yeah.. societal indoctrination.. taught prejudice against short men.. all that.
C’mon.. that’s ridiculous. It’s as “stupid” as saying a black and white couple “looks stupid”.
Carlos says
It only goes to show that women are the stupider gender. There are thousands of genetic defects and all she worries about is passing on height – what good is a 6’2 male born with cerebral palsy, for example?
charlie says
I am a 5’10” 48 male thanks God I’m not a female ha.I am in Canada and is considered very tall and bulky.My friend who he is 5 foot 5 agrees I should join the tall men’s club so to imagine a girl or woman even close to that height is rather disturbing. because even a tall guy like me could never date a 5’10” woman because if she wears heels she will tower over me. and kissing at eye level seems inproper. Rules of relationships are the man wants a girl or woman a few inches shorter so he feels superior and the woman or girl wants a man a few inches taller so she feels protected and feminine. When the woman is the same height as the male she will feel less feminine and perhaps tomboyish. Look at Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman. What on earth did they see in each other. She is 5’10” to me that’s a giant and hes 5’4″ without lifts. It looks so surreal and the whole thing just f reaksme out. Nicole should be dating a guy around 6’6″ or more this way she can wear her heels and still feel feminine and protected but then who is going to mess with a 5’10″woman? I am going to be straight forward here. the best height for a woman is 5’5″. This way she can wear 2 inch heels and still be under a mans height which averages to 5’8″.Catherine Zeta Jones is 5’7″ that’s tall. She’s married to Michael Douglas who used to be 5’7″ not he’s 5’5″ and well she towers over him what can I say. Now as for me 5’10 I’d be to afraid to even date a 5’7″ woman because once the heels come on you will need a step stool to reach her lips especially if she likes the 5 inch heels. Carly Simon she is listed as 5’10” I love her music but when I see her in videos I had to google her height because I was disturbed. sorry that’s me. I can’t help it. The Kardashian girls are giants a few 5’10”.I don’t get it. Donald Trump the Loser hes a big guy and his wife is a big guy oops woman at 5’11 1/2 YIKES!!!!! His daughters are bother tall too.Ivanka is 5’11 and her sister is 5’11 1/2. Any how you get my drift wear I m at.
Esther says
A guy who’s 6’6″? Come on, that’s as rare as an albino crocodile. It’s hard enough to find a 6′ tall guy.
Jordan says
“When the woman is the same height as the male she will feel less feminine and perhaps tomboyish.”
Unless you’ve been explicitly told by a number of tall women who have previously date/are currently dating men of the same height, how do you know this?
Femininity is a concept that is mostly to do any woman’s (tall, average or short) own self-confidence and qualities. Equally, irrespective of the height difference, if the guy has masculine energy to contemplate her feminine energy, that’s not actually a problem. Instead, I think that’s a way of avoiding the fact that *some* men feel irrationally emasculated by taller women.
Robz says
another short man here … i dont care tall woman but im scared that they dont care bout me because of my height im only 5’2 and afraid goin out girls cause maybe they will leave me behind or talk to my back… im good at singing and dancing but i think that isnt enough to go out with me 🙁 lucky for tall man
Grenoble says
Yeah, it can be though. I’m also 5’2″ and I’m not so much afraid to go out with women. I have asked out several women this year, but only received one date that ultimately didn’t evolve into anything more.
I put on my best game face and talk in a confident, friendly manner. I try a little banter and flirtations sometimes if it feels right. What hurts a lot is the off-handed rejections; the girls who dismiss me without even giving me a minute or two of their time. They took one look and wrote me off.
I have a lot to offer, and you have to believe you do too. Do everything you can to increase your value in the eyes of others.
I worry sometimes that I won’t find anyone for me. Studies show that women date shorter guys in only about 4% of relationships in North America, so statistically speaking, I’d have to ask out 100 women just to get 4 dates, and that’s not to say anything about long-term compatibility.
I can find many women that I like and can relate to, but they fail to desire me in return. The absolute worst thing is to meet someone who is highly compatible and lets you know that you’re just about everything they could want, except the height.
I once had a date with a woman who rejected me saying I wasn’t her type. She then proceeded to list off characteristics that described me in every way until she arrived at the word “tall.” I later saw her dating a guy who was somewhat similar to me, but a fair bit taller than her.
I don’t find it hard to meet women who I like and who like me as a person or think I’m a great guy. Occasionally they assume I already have a girlfriend (but they always expect that girl to be the same height as me, maybe they think it’d look cute or something). It’s hard to get them to look past the height and see me as dating material and possible boyfriend material.
But like EMK says, confidence is the key. Just keep at it and hopefully you’ll meet someone who will not care about the height difference.
The thing I guess I can look forward to is, if I do eventually meet a women who wishes to be my girlfriend, I can be pretty sure that she’s serious about me.
Robz says
yes i experience it right now im losing hope i kinda, i dont know she keep me jealous of her friend i feel like why the hell im in this situation and why she keep doin this im planning to break up because she`s hurting me much maybe because im only a small guy and asian …
Life is……………….
Talldarknlovely says
Plain and simple, I’m 6’3″ and currently dating a 5’9″ man. I’m attracted to his straightforwardness and charm. Yes he’s attractive but I liked his approach to me and that won me over. Life is too short not to enjoy someone who wants to be with you. Enough said.
Mike K says
“Yet some short women discriminate against average sized (5’7-5’11”) men.” I wouldn’t really say 5’11 is average height. Anything over 5’10 is tall in my book. 5’7 to 5’9 is average height in my opinion and 5’6 and under is short.
Evan Marc Katz says
This isn’t really a matter of opinion. 5’9-5’10” is average height. Anything less is short. Anything more is tall.
ryan morris says
hey guys.
5’5 26 year old male checking in here. Wanted to throw in my 2 cents worth about my life as a short guy
Luckily enough I grew up in Australia. I represented my high school in 5 different sports and national level at 2 of them. What I am saying is I was a good sportsman and I got pretty much most girls dispite my short stature. Turned 18 moved to a place were I was no longer a popular kid and realised I couldn’t pick up in clubs. Wow my height was a huge issue to women and i only just worked it out
I am very in shape love sports love gym etc. But most inshape girl has the world of guys to chose from and will not touch short guys but I still pick up sometimes with good game and effort. I do however still have good success with fat girls. Funny how short man is so undeserable and so is fat women. I noticed how somebody on this forum said we should be tolerant. We really should’t. If i could work out and fix my hieght id be 10 foot tall I am so motivated. These women whinge about being undesrible yet spend there life eating. I have nothing in common with them theyl ike ice cream and movies and I want to go surfing or rock climbing!! So I gave up on fat girls I cant keep banging them just because fit girls hate my height.
I slept with a few prostitutes thinking that had to be my new life. But the junkie drug addict ones are like $200. Any girl half decent looking is about$500. To expensive long term.Then I went to thailand. Ok yes the do still prefer taller men but if you are white you can game them pretty well. I picked up plenty of uni students in bangkok. Then if you want to go to pattaya for the prostitute seen. Pick up any girl out of a nightclub some stunning 22 years olds working for themselves.. Will stay with you till the next day for $30us. Will go on adventures with you sleep with you as much as you want etc. Acutally are nicer then normal women back home..
ONLINE DATING – I have 800 matches on tinder. Tinder doesnt mention my height. I chat to girls and have them interested to come over that night. Every night. However IF i mention my hegiht deal is done. When they turn up sometimes deal is done. Sometimes they are disapointed but fuck me anyway. lol
Plenty of fish- height listed at the top. I have never ever ever got a reply from a women lol. My mates get like 30 replies a week.
So yes height is an issue. But that’s life. I have slept with around 80 unpaid girls in my life and had a few 2 year relationships. I appriciate every girl i have ever slept with and am friends with most. My mates now with online dating and being tall goodlooking etc. Get round a different girl a night and pick up every weekend at the clubs. Numbers get into the 600’s and they dont appriciate when they get layed its just another number on there quest to 1000’s
Stay confident short guys. You got the short end of the stick . Its harder to get girls but the reward is greater when you do. Don’t be a short guy be ‘the ‘ short guy. The one the girls say ‘I would never touch a short guy but he is my exception’ . Get in perfect shape. Dress well. Watch pick up artist stuff. Learn openers and closing lines. Work on your humor. Learn how to deflect height digs/ ‘ sorry your a bit short for me’ Don’t look sad when she says that. Come back with something confident witty make her think your not fussed.
If any short guy wants advice email me. I am no pick up master but I have a few tips. 🙂
Ashley says
I am 29 year old 5″7″ woman and the man I am in a relationship with now is slightly under that. My prior dating history consists of men that were all over 6 feet tall, and, needless to say handsome, “masculine”, successful and always, always emotionally unavailable! It wasn’t until I wised up and got competent in relationships and dating that I finally decided to compromise on something of such little importance. I am so grateful I did because had I not, I would have missed out on the opportunity to meet the incredible guy I am currently in a relationship with! The biggest kicker of all is that those tall handsome guys never really understood how to make me feel feminine, safe, accepted, heard and appreciated at the end of the day. Unfortunately, a majority of those tall handsome devils tend to have always had ladies flock to them because of their “masculine” appearance but in the end I always ended up feeling invisible and unappreciated. Tall stature will only get those men so far before the gig is up and they realize actual effort is required to make a woman feel like she wants to keep you around. For all those ladies that are still hung up on height, better act fast and start chatting up those sweet and short dudes before the secret gets out!! You won’t regret it 😉
JTC says
I say let the women who are chasing 10% of the male population end up alone and sad. Doesn’t bother me. 🙂
Sarah says
At 5’7″ I prefer men 5’10” or taller. Believe me when I say I wish this was not the case as I know it would expand my dating options greatly if I was attracted to all men. However, to a large degree, we have no control over who we are physically attracted to. Height is just one trait, but for me it is one of the ONLY physical traits that matter. Race, weight (unless you are morbidly obese), body type, age, etc, do not matter to the same degree. The only way I can explain it, is that I just feel more “feminine”, more like “a girl” next to a man who is taller. And, I do not like the feeling of towering over a man. I’ve tried being more open minded and going on dates with shorter men. Trying to make myself physically attracted to someone simply does not work. There are lots of women out there who feel as I do and recognize that it is based in biology. It’s hard to convince yourself to be attracted to a category of people if you simply aren’t and your preferences have nothing to do with social norms or any bias. I do think much of the preference is evolutionary biology. These studies are done all the time. Like the UK study that showed almost all men picked the same kind of woman with a hip-to-waist ratio of 10 inches. All the other factors of women’s bodies did not matter. When the men saw the results themselves, they were shocked. It was really not a conscious choice on their part. Theory behind this choice is that this female proportion is translated in the men’s subconscious as a woman with good child baring capacity. Many of the men were past the age of wanting children, yet they still picked this ratio. So before you slam us women for having invented the preference for the man to be taller, please consider the level of evolutionary deeply ingrained programming that we are fighting trying our best to be attracted to men shorter than us. Attraction is attraction in the physical sense and trying to use your brain to override this with logic doesn’t work. Most women I know tell me they just want the man taller by a couple of inches, so when they do wear heels they do not tower over him. I have heard very short women 5’1″ and 5’2″ tell me height isn’t important. Then I get a kick out of asking if they have ever dated a shorter man. The answer is always no. And then they acknowledge that it would feel “weird.” Most men are taller than them, so the preference for taller is something they have never had to acknowledge having.
Lisa says
When it comes to looks I really only have two must haves teeth and height and truly they don’t have to be your original set if teeth 🙂 what I am saying in a slightly playful way is that I have dated all types of men, heavy men, skinny men, bald men, men of all races but one thing I can’t do is short men. And the reason I found this post is I looked for it to see if Evan wrote about it because I read all his stuff and I get a ton of angry emails from men online. Lots of angry dudes apparently not getting answers and many are short men. I am a short woman only 5’1 and I think by virtue of that short men think I am required to date them. I know you all think I’m shallow but other than this one thing I am not but because everyone has shamed me so much I have given short men a shot, many many times and I am just not physically or sexually turned on by them no matter how much I get to know them. I really have tried. I generally am only attracted to men over 6 feet but I have dated and been attracted to men above 5’9 maybe in the 5’9-5’10 or so range. I don’t see this as any different then men who like blondes or skinny women and I don’t know why this is the case for me it just is. I have no problem getting dates with tall men. And men for the love of God please do not exaggerate your height so significantly that I cannot recognize you when we meet up then send me a nasty email when I refuse a second date. I don’t get angry at men that don’t like blondes or men that prefer small chested women? I do t see why women who don’t like short men are called shallow it’s a physical preference?
Evan Marc Katz says
It is a preference. But in restricting your search to six footers, you have eliminated 86% of men – based on a trait that says nothing sbout his character or what kind of husband he’ll be. So yes, it’s shallow, and yes, it’s shortsighted, and yes, it’s exactly like a man who prefers blondes and refuses to date women with dark hair because he has a “type.”
David says
Personally, I don’t have a problem with women having certain height preferences, in the it’s up to them what they go for and I know I have my preferences/requirements. I come from a family of short men who have never had problems attracting beautiful women, we’ve never considered ourselves inferior and we’ve just sought those who’ve understood all that we bring to the table and cherished it – in the end, why would you want to be with someone who doesn’t think you’re awesome! I will admit that we have a reputation for being quite handsome men so perhaps that’s made a big difference and I can relate to those who think that some people’s requirements are plain silly but hey, each to their own. Btw, I’m about 5’9 and my brother and father are 5’5. I reckon just be the best person you can be and seek out those who recognise and value your great qualities, anything else is a waste of energy. I reckon a great smile, great manners, a good sense of humour, a kind and generous heart combined with some self-discipline and intelligence have ways of making less important things well…less important 😀
An says
I don’t consider this as discrimination. There are several legitimate reasons why people would not date because of height I guess. What boils down to discrimination in terms of height is viewing them as unfit to life just because they are short. I have ‘dwarfism’. During school days, I was asked out by 3 people, all who were normal-sized, and I was assigned female. Stranger kids would look at me and say, ‘she’s so small’ and stare. I had to adjust with desks and was probably made fun of b/c of my size. Ppl still thought I was an Elem student right before turning 20, but that was it. How many times were the average normale sized woman asked out? Idk. Ppl tell me I’m gorgeous, but I somehow didn’t get asked out much. I hear some other LP fear puting their real height on dating sites because of them getting fetishized. Is there a survey on how many of any gender would date a little person?
dante says
Well, let’s just say that most of the shorter than 5’9 have such insecurity with respect to their heights what is a shame to hear that, due to the high standards than most women had settled in order to conceive a perfect date, don’t get me wrong and I will sound a bit out of topic, even know I’m not the exception towards this concern more than half of women get in a relationship with a excentric millionaire regardless if he is tall,short,skinny,obessed,young or old, and yes I sounded out of topic, so that makes me wonder if most women really care about stature so much?(I’m not pointing out all women)
Karmic Equation says
Not sure where you read that women desire men with 7″ penises.
Darwinism has demonstrated that most women prefer men with penises between 5-7″, because MOST men have penises that size.
If women truly desired men with longer penises, she really ought to consider shorter men.
My experience is that shorter men have the longer penises. I used to joke with a friend that the inches God took off the top, he put somewhere else. lol. He loved that joke, since he was one of the well-endowed shorter guys.
roja says
I agree George, woman do prefer bigger but most are too shy to say that. TOO big though it too much & too small is too small. But when I say “bigger” I mean more girth, length is really a non factor for most, if it’s a little shorter & “fatter” that is WAYY better than long & thin. Women cannot feel anything past 2″ inside anyway so it’s the girth that counts. A man’s body size has NO correlation with his penis size though. The 2 biggest I ever had were on a 6’5″ man & a 5’9″ man. When I asked my husband if he ever fretted about his size, especially in the beginnings of just meeting someone he said “never” & he is not above average by any means, so not all men are agonizing I guess. In the end, size does matter, regardless of all the things you read that say women don’t care, we do. Just the reality.
Karmic Equation says
Asian men tend to have small penises. That is known. Just as black men are purported the most well-endowed. So if you throw out the low-end and the high-end in physical height, I believe the rest of men/penises are with “normal” ranges of 5-7″.
I believe there was a study about the various ethnicities of Caucasian men, that ran the gamut. I believe the Irish (sorry, Tom10! lmao) were reported to be the worst endowed. However, I’m pretty sure that Irish men run the gamut of leprechaunic to giant in height 🙂
I believe that study said that the average penis length was 5.6″ or something like that. I don’t remember what that study reported about girth.
Tom10 says
@ Karmic Equation
“I believe there was a study about the various ethnicities of Caucasian men, that ran the gamut. I believe the Irish (sorry, Tom10! lmao) were reported to be the worst endowed. However, I’m pretty sure that Irish men run the gamut of leprechaunic to giant in height”
Ha, that’s funny, I haven’t seen that study. So I just did some research there…and it seems that you’re right! 🙁
But, as with all these things, it always comes down to the individual. So let’s just say Karmic, that I’m not on the “leprechaunic” end of the scale. Lol. 😉
Michelle says
Sooooo…. Am I the only 5ft girl here? I officially hate my height and now that you guys are like 5’7 and stuff I’m sooo jealous. Like why can’t I be tall? Honestly everyone gets along with me and they say that I’m funny, but I’m short. So great.
roja says
Michelle – There are PLENTY of men that prefer petite women, I know several men over 6′ that love smaller women & shy away from taller women. I am 5’9″ myself & would say in dating it’s harder for taller women than short! Especially when you’re attracted to men 5’11” or taller. Your dating pool at 5′ is much bigger than a woman 5’7″ +
Ricky Ricardo says
Personally, I don’t think the women should compromise if what they really desire is a man of a certain height. Maybe she will find that or maybe she will not and end up cutting the best compromise she can. To each her or his own, lol. I know I am willing to compromise to an extent when it comes to the type of women I am attracted to. However, I can not compromise away my beliefs or what I am truly attracted to. I definitely will not date big beautiful women seriously. I feel I deserve someone that is as close to my equal as possible. With that said, I am sure some people will say I should compromise, I would prefer to have peace of mind alone than in a relationship with someone that I am really not attracts to on the primal level. And no, attraction is not wholly a social construct. Some of it is strongly connected to our evolution and natural selection.
Jennifer Bennett says
I’m a 6’0 woman and I’ve only recently decided to date a 5’9 man. He’s OK with the fact that I’m taller than him and I’m OK with that fact too. Taller men are extremely hard to find out here and its even harder to find one that is loving and caring.
David says
The height thing is ridiculous. I’m 5’8 and have never had a problem with women. They have blown off tall guys at the bar to come home with me many times.
You want to know what cancels out height every time? Beating the hell out of the big mouth tall guy in the parking lot in front of his girlfriend. Some tall guys take politeness as a sign of weakness – then they get worked over. I guarantee its a long time until they mess with the wrong average-height guy again. I have KO’d more tall guys in the ring, on the street and in bar room parking lots the I can (literally) remember. The taller they are the better I used to like it. I’m older now and those days are gone but – height means nothing. In fact, a lot of tall guys get by on size, never having to fight – then mess with the wrong man one night and get a REAL good lesson.
One thing I especially used to like is when some wise-mouthed girl was giving me grief and I had to put her in her place. Then, she would get mad and go and get her big boyfriend whom I would then proceed to pave the parking lot with and stick to the side of the dumpster. Like I said, height means nothing.
Phil says
Unfortunately, I know all too well about the topic of this article. As a 64 yr. man, it is difficult enough to meet ladies in my age group. Sure, younger women can be wonderful, but I am a realist so I practically hope to meet someone in my own age group. I a 5’9” and at a very good level of fitness due to regular exercise and aazz healthy diet. I was married for many years to a lady who was 5’7″. Height or talk of height was never an issue or concern in our many years marriage.
When I began to read profiles that ladies wrote, when I became single, I was surprised how height seemed to be so important to ladies. It seems that many women 5’6” or an inch taller, are only comfortable with a man who would tower over them or at least be a minimum of 6′. in my age group I am quite surprised to see this. They may very well be responding to messages from fellows who may be overweight or pot bellied, but have the height that the ladies deem so desirable. Of course there are exceptions but I never saw this coming about the magnitude of importance placed on being considerably taller than a lady. Now, I do not expect ladies taller than myself to flock to me. However, if I am only 1″-4″ inches taller, that should not necessarily be a negative factor. Does being in top aerobic condition count for anything or pale compared to tallness? Of course, personality & common interests, chemistry, should be valued for their significance. When I tell other people about this issue, they are surprised , however, it is reality although illogical to me and many others.
Dave says
Phil – Women may claim that height is so all-important in the vacuum of descriptions on a dating site, but in real life its next to nothing. When an average height man is more handsome than the tall one they change their mind in an instant.
There are good women out there. There are also many stupid and fickle ones. I guarantee that when the tall guy has a big gut or is a mental turnip or is less handsome they blow him off for you right away. And this whole ridiculous argument of, “yes, but all other things being equal…” is absolutely inane. All other things are NEVER equal.
A woman’s mind can change in an instant. Life is not a sterile dating site. Its a dynamic combination of all factors. Its an illusion that height is the huge factor its made out to be – a manifestation of the phony, plastic society in which we now live. It does not stand up to ACTUAL and REAL life. There are a lot of stupid, phony, ugly and overrated tall guys out there who cannot stand up to real competition in real life. Women blow them off all the time. Tall guys get divorced after the phony height thing wears off and the woman jilts them for a handsome, built, intelligent average-height guy.
Height is way overrated. Don’t let what a certain percentage of stupid and shallow women say bother you. They may know what they individually THINK they think – but I’ve been with over a hundred women in this life and I know much better than any individual woman how women think and act in general. How many women have they been with? – none unless they’re lesbians and a straight guy could care less about that anyway.
My favorite thing used to be beating the hell out of a mouthy tall guy in front of his girlfriend – then taking her home and sleeping with her. He never even looked at me sideways after he was put in his place – I assure you.
Don’t just give tall guys a pass and assume they get all the girls. That’s a fairy tale. Get out and compete. You’ll find that your stiffest completion is from average height guys – not tall ones. Most tall guys go through life hoping their bluff won’t get called. When it does, more often than not – they fold like a cheap lawn chair.
DeeGee says
Dave said: “Women may claim that height is so all-important in the vacuum of descriptions on a dating site, but in real life its next to nothing.”
I would have to disagree with that. With an explanation.
Height is probably the #3 reason that women give me (even to my face) that they are not interested in dating me. I’ve even been refused second dates because of my height, and openly stated so by the woman. I am 5’8″ if you were wondering.
#1: they don’t think I’m good looking enough for them (google OKCupid’s “Your Looks and Your Inbox” for insight on that), and #2: they don’t think I’m wealthy enough for them.
Women are great shoppers, they love shopping lists. And wealth, fame, looks, and height are on that list. If women didn’t have those shopping list items at the forefront of their mind, we wouldn’t see dating advice blogs for women. How much a women is willing to bend (or settle) on any item on that list may vary somewhat by the woman.
I’m not saying that this is necessarily bad, if we look at this even primitively, of course a woman is going to want to find the best provider or mate that she can.
Women will weigh items on their shopping list.
For example, if he is rich or famous, that will trump average (or even poor) looks.
You even state right in your reply that good looks (handsome) can trump tall height.
Billythekid says
This blog made me think of my early 20’s, as I was rejected by the foxes who chased after the Alfa males and showed no more interest in me than glancing at a blade of grass next to the highway traveling at 75 MPH. And this made me think about my own personal experiences with tall women, a slightly different story from this blog, but same result due to being a Beta male.
One 6’ tall girl, in a gym, talked to me with such a look of disinterested she couldn’t have looked or acted more uninterested if she had wanted to. I approached another, who I estimated being 5 foot 9 or 10 inches. She got angry with me for even asking her out and stuck her finger in my face informing me she didn’t date shorter men. On line, I met a girl 5’11”, and we worked out together once in my apartment complex gym, after that she did not return my two phone calls, there could be others, too, I just don’t remember them all. Now, you may say the rejections were because of my looks, that could be true, but as I approached girls closer to my height, my success rate went way up.
This blog also made me think about the rejections by tall girls, and it angered me, but not at the time the rejection. Only years later, when I actually tallied them up, did I get angry. I was rejected not because I was fat, bald, ugly, deformed or had a rotten personality. No. The reason I was rejected by all of these women was my height. Not a one even bothered to put forth the effort to get to know me much less date me.
I did date three women who were significantly taller than me, two at 5’11” and one at 5’10”. (I am 5’8”) And all three happened to be 32 years of age, which is more than a coincidence and a tie in with this blog. No doubt all three wanted a tall Alfa male, and lost, so a safe stable Beta male was the next best thing in their 30’s, for I certainly didn’t grow any taller and I doubt I got better looking. These women were past their prime and worried. I was in my late 30’s, at this time of my life, after being married for 10 years. It was also at this time, I could easily date younger women, and I did. When I was 38, my first girlfriend was 27, the next was 27 and the next was 24 who became my second wife. I never dated with any intent of marrying a woman my age. Younger women had no issue with me dating them, and I certainly had no issue dating them. I remember going to singles events and seeing very pretty women, who were my age, who I know 15 years earlier would not have given me the time of day. And even now, they may have looked better than myself, but now it was me who had no interest in approaching them. I did not want to take time and money away from pursuing younger women. Why go old, when I could go young? I was amazed how the dating game changed in my favor. And I used it to my advantage, just as women had done years earlier.
I am now married and have 4 sons. I have 3 degrees, and I have co-authored 2 US patents. I could have provided a good life to any girl. I wanted a taller girl because of the physical turn on and to for fill one of my desires, yet not one single tall girl (in her 20’s) gave me a chance. I was turned down consistently and without a second thought. (Maybe due to the Alfa male fascination) So, if you find yourself in your late 20’s or early 30’s with no prospect of a husband or children in the immediate future, you have no one to blame but yourself. There were men like me, who wanted a leggy female, but they, like me, were never accorded the opportunity. (This also applies to average height women, too) And the reality is that the vast majority of tall women will not even consider a shorter man (and Beta males) until it is too late. You would think it would be obvious that if you included shorter males (and Beta males) in your suitor selection, your odds would increase of finding a mate. There are a lot more short and medium height males than there are taller ones. So my advice would be to accept the advances of all men and get to know them. I, who would have relished the opportunity of having curvy broad hips and a tapered waist to hold all night and to make love to into the early hours of the morning, was never, not once, even given a chance to start a relationship. Throw away the yardstick, for you may find someone like me, who would love to share his life and love with a tall girl.
By the way, another tie in with this article and be found at this web site.
http://shortguycentral.com/P-57/beware-of-the-reformed-heightist-woman
This writer tell about his rejections in his 20’s by women only to find that women now chased after him, in spite of his height, now he is in his early 30’s. He warns of the dangers of the “Reformed Heightest Woman” who are desperate after wasting their life chasing the Alfa male and now want a stable Beta with a steady pay-check.
Dave says
Billythekid – Of course women who are taller than you may not be interested. That’s pretty much normal. Although I found in my youth that girls taller than me often had a thing for me. But the thing is – all this height stuff is WAY overblown. I’m 5’8″. I never had a problem taking women from tall guys. I will admit that I was handsome in my youth and that was probably part of it. But GET OFF the height thing. If you’re in the average range you’re fine. If your 5’5″ or below then you do have a big problem. And the “alpha male” thing – I was always well built. Evan now I still have a big chest and 18 inch arms. I’ve seen many so called “alpha males” checking out MY size. Height is not size. SIZE is size. There are plenty of tall guys who are built like wimps.
And again, stop thinking height is this super-factor in success with women. Look up your favorite basketball players and read their short bios. Lots and lots of these guys have been divorced. The woman blows them off, often probably due to the height-appeal wearing off. And when it does, a tall guy has very little to fall back on in the slick and suave department because he’s always gotten by on this ridiculous height thing. Also, when the height appeal wears off, there’s that much more for the woman to hold in contempt about him. What used to be an advantage for him now turns into the woman (especially when looking at him naked in a whole new light) thinking he’s a gangling goon. I’ve actually had women tell me this after I’ve pounded out their boyfriend’s lights and taken them home for sex. “Its been going down hill for a long time.” – stuff like that.
One real good trick against a tall guy is to display superior strength. Destroy him at arm wrestling in front of his girlfriend, lift more weight than he can or hammer him in the parking lot and her mind immediately starts holding the guy in contempt and disdain. I KNOW this is true. It works every time.
Like I’ve said before, most tall guys go through life hoping their bluff will never be called. When it is, most of them either chicken out like a sissy or get their ass kicked.
Have CONFIDENCE in yourself, men.
Kyle says
i don’t buy that woman are naturally attracted to tall men. The average height for men in the world is 5’7″, and shorter the further back in time you go. Women were attracted to all those men for centuries. I think it’s girls who grew up watching too much TV and can’t separate reality from fiction who act like they cant be with a shorter man. It’s also women who have difficulty thinking for themselves and creating their own definition of value Ina partner. Most of them probably lack confidence and life experience/wisdom. By the time your both 40 with 3 kids and cleaning up barf in your minivan will you still be worried if your husband is kinda short? Newsflash, a shorter man will beat the bricks off it in bed and might have a bigger 401k than his tall doofy friend 😉
sue says
Same advice should apply to me. I’m 55 and have rarely been even asked out for my entire life. Online dating has failed miserably. Why? Because I’m a 6′ tall woman. Men get completely freaked out by that. Even when I say I’m 5’11”. Even taller guys. I went on a couple dates with a guy who was 6’4″ and he kept commenting, “wow, you really are tall” WTF??
And if they don’t reject me because of my height (sample message from online site: “I really like your profile, but I have to double check your height, because if you really are 5’11”, we can’t date because I’m 5’9″), men freak out because I”m a doctor (“I feel stupid around you because you are a doctor”)
Joe says
LOL just came across this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBp-Qk9XacY
Millie says
I’m 5’6″ and I don’t feel feminine with a man shorter than I. I’m average sized (not overweight but not petite) and I feel like an amazon when I’m with a shorter guy. I’ve tried it before and it just doesn’t work for me.
Christine says
I do feel for short men on this one. I’m 5’4″ and my guy is 5’7″. Some female friends of mine have made comments to me on how he’s not that much taller than me. They imply that he’s not tall enough–although obviously, he’s taller than me. Apparently, it’s not even enough for a man to just be taller than a woman, but must be much taller and tower over her!
I could personally care less about that. I can honestly say I don’t think about our heights that much and it really doesn’t affect our relationship. It’s the way he treats me so beautifully, and seems so in tune with my emotional needs, that I really notice. In the long run, it really doesn’t matter to me all that much. Before him, I dated men of varying heights and that never really made the difference in the outcome.
Dave says
Christine – Make note of who those “friends” are. Those are superficial “friends” to say the least. A genuine friend would be happy for you. They would not point out things that were (one) irrelevant, (two) none of their business and (three) that they know you would find unpleasant and upsetting. These are not genuine friends. If they’ll say something so judgmental and superficial like that about your boyfriend – you can be sure they’ll say things about YOU as well behind your back – and that they are saying derogatory things about your boyfriend to others behind both your backs.
A three inch difference between a man and woman is plenty. In fact, its close to ideal. If any of these friends are currently without a boyfriend, they’re jealous that you have one. The ones that have boyfriends and would presume to say something so childish and negative are probably not happy in their relationships.
Make note of the so-called friends that said this to you and do not trust them in anything at all. These are backstabbers in friends’ clothing.
Christine says
Thank you Dave–I wasn’t happy about that and have to admit it gave me second thoughts about certain people. Luckily, most of my friends really are thrilled for me. For the ones who aren’t, I think it says more about them than it does about us.
Oh well, neither of us are going to be playing for the NBA any time soon (only watch the playoffs on TV). So we’re happy enough with our shorter selves. 🙂
Brian says
The height discrimination is real. I am 5’8″ and post in my profile 5’9″. My looks are above average and I am well off. I still struggle. Although I’ll admit I suspect my messaging skills could use help.
I’ve seen in a number of profiles the comment ‘I prefer men over 6 feet because, well, you know, I look really good in high heels”, or something very similar to that. The ladies guilty of this know who you are, and you are many. I’m torn because on one hand I feel rejected, yet on the other I think “this gal is a total bimbo”.
If you look at the distribution curve for mens height in the US it shows the number of men above 6’ is relatively small. I also suspect the proportion of those who are single and available is even smaller. So why a women would hold out for this is strange. Unless you are drop dead gorgeous and independantly wealthy, or dating a douche bag is totally cool, I’m at a total loss. The number of profiles I see that would warrant a woman being that choosy are few. One in hundreds, maybe a thousand. I hide fully 2/3 of profiles and then slowly weed out the rest. For example, how a woman with a failed marriage and two kids can make height demands is humurous. Perhaps thats why the first marriage failed.
We are all special in our own minds, which is great for a healthy existence. We all deserve the best right? Absolutely. Just how special I guess is the question. Myself included.
Dave says
Brian – Life is not the sterile vacuum of an electronic dating site. A lot of women who say they only want a guy six foot or more will be all over you if you charm them IN REAL LIFE. Some women are shallow and stupid, as are some men. Don’t perceive it as some insurmountable height barrier you can never overcome.
I’m 5’8 – (really more like 5’9 I realized the other day). In my youth I took lots of hot women from guys at bars and took them home and slept with them all weekend. The next time they saw me they acted like Mr. Tall didn’t even exist anymore. He just had to sit there like a preschooler who’d just soiled himself. If he got pissed, I paved the parking lot with his ass.
Get the hell out there and fight and stop whinin’ just because some dude thinks he’s cool because he’s tall. DEFEAT the guy. I guarantee he won’t think he’s cool after that, and the woman who thought his height was so great will blow him off quicker than a zapper fries a bug. This height thing is WAY the hell overrated.
Women want strength, confidence and fearlessness in a man. Its a hell of a lot of fun to see tall guys act all put-out when you unabashedly exhibit these qualities. That’s THEIR problem. Most tall guys go through life hopin’ their bluff never gets called. When it does, more often tan not they get their ass kicked. So get out there and kick some ass and stop whining about bein’ 5’8.
The average height range for American men is 5’8-5’11. YOU’RE FINE.
Frank Johnson says
Brian Here is my story.
Sharon was a 35 year old divorced woman. She was 5’6” and average in looks and weight. She didn’t have any extraordinary physical characteristic that would distinguish her from any other female her age. She didn’t have a beautiful face, nor big breasts (maybe an A cup). She didn’t have an hour-glass figure or a Kim Kardashian ass. All in all, she was just average. She didn’t have a college degree and had no income generating skills. She was broke and living at her parent’s home with her 2 children from a failed marriage. One day, she is talking to my wife and says this. She will not date a man below 6’ AND he has to have a good income because he has to support her and her 2 kids. When I heard this, my reaction was, Sharon is either insane or a delusional narcissist. Evidently, she thought that a broke, divorced, 35 year old woman with two kids was what every 6’ plus successful man wanted. She had to have thought that there was a severe shortage of destitute women with children and an oversupply of 6’ plus successful men who wanted a women like her.
And surprisingly she did get what she wanted —– sort of. She did get married, at the age of 40, to a man barely an inch taller than her. I can’t speak of his income, but he was karate instructor, so I doubt he made a 6 figure income that she demanded 5 years earlier.
It would be interesting to know how many good men she rejected due to their height in her entire life.
Frank Johnson says
This blog made me think of my early 20’s, as I was rejected by the foxes who chased after the Alfa males and showed no more interest in me than glancing at a blade of grass next to the highway traveling at 75 MPH. And this made me think about my own personal experiences with tall women, a slightly different story from this blog, but same result due to being a Beta male.
One 6’ tall girl, in a gym, talked to me with such a look of disinterested she couldn’t have looked or acted more uninterested if she had wanted to. I approached another, who I estimated being 5 foot 9 or 10 inches. She got angry with me for even asking her out and stuck her finger in my face informing me she didn’t date shorter men. On line, I met a girl 5’11”, and we worked out together once in my apartment complex gym, after that she did not return my two phone calls, there could be others, too, I just don’t remember them all. Now, you may say the rejections were because of my looks, that could be true, but as I approached girls closer to my height, my success rate went way up.
This blog also made me think about the rejections by tall girls, and it angered me, but not at the time the rejection. Only years later, when I actually tallied them up, did I get angry. I was rejected not because I was fat, bald, ugly, deformed or had a rotten personality. No. The reason I was rejected by all of these women was my height. Not a one even bothered to put forth the effort to get to know me much less date me. (I did date one girl for 3 years when I was in college, who was 5’8”.)
I did date three women who were significantly taller than me, two at 5’11” and one at 5’10”. (I am 5’8”) And all three happened to be 32 years of age, which is more than a coincidence and a tie in with this blog. No doubt, all three wanted a tall Alfa male, and lost, so a safe stable Beta male was the next best thing in their 30’s, for I certainly didn’t grow any taller and I doubt I got better looking. These women were past their prime and worried. I was in my late 30’s, at this time of my life, after being married for 10 years. It was also at this time, I could easily date younger women, and I did. When I was 38, my first girlfriend was 27, the next was 27 and the next was 24 who became my second wife. I never dated with any intent of marrying a woman my age. Younger women had no issue with me dating them, and I certainly had no issue dating them. I remember going to singles events and seeing very pretty women, who were my age, who I know 15 years earlier wouldn’t have given me the time of day. And even now, may have looked better than myself, but now it was me who had no interest in approaching them. I did not want to take time and money away from pursuing younger women. Why go old, when I could go young?
I am now married and have 4 sons. I have 3 degrees, and I have co-authored 2 US patents. I could have provided a good life to any girl. I wanted a taller girl because of the physical turn on and to for fill one of my desires, yet not one single tall girl (in her 20’s) gave me a chance. I was turned down consistently and without a second thought. So, if you find yourself in your late 20’s or early 30’s with no prospect of a husband or children, you have no one to blame but yourself. There were men like me, who wanted a leggy female, but they, like me, were never accorded the opportunity. (This also applies to average height women, too) And the reality is that the vast majority of tall women will not even consider a shorter man until it is too late. You would think it would be obvious that if you included shorter males in your suitor selection, your odds would increase of finding a mate, for there are a lot more short and medium height males than there are taller ones. So my advice would be to accept the advances of all men and get to know them. I, who would have relished the opportunity of having curvy broad hips and a tapered waist to hold all night and to make love to into the early hours of the morning, was never, not once, even given a chance to start a relationship. Thus, throw away the yardstick, for you may find someone like me, who would love to share his life and love with a leggy lady.
By the way, another tie in with this article and be found at this web site.
http://shortguycentral.com/P-57/beware-of-the-reformed-heightist-woman
This writer tells about women’s rejections in his 20’s, only to find that women now chased after him, in spite of his height, now he is in his early 30’s. He warns of the dangers of the “Reformed Heightest Woman” who are desperate after wasting their life chasing the Alfa male and now want a stable Beta with a steady pay-check.
Here is anther on how women who found the Mr. Average (Beta Males) were worth nothing in their 20’s and now that these women are in their 30’s can’t buy a date, even from the Beta Males, titled “Why women lose in the dating game”
http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/life/why-women-lose-the-dating-game-20120421-1xdn0.html
During their 20s, women compete for the most highly desirable men, the Mr Bigs. Many will readily share a bed with the sporty, attractive, confident men, while ordinary men miss out. As Whiskey puts it at whiskeysplace.wordpress.com: ”Joe Average Beta Male is about as desirable to women as a cold bowl of oatmeal.”
”I can’t believe how many men my age are only interested in younger women,” wails Gail, a 34-year-old advertising executive as she describes her first search through men’s profiles on the RSVP internet dating site. She is shocked to find many mid-30s men have set up their profiles to refuse mail from women their own age.
Talking to many women like her, it’s intriguing how many look back on past relationships where they let good men get away because they weren’t ready. American journalist Kate Bolick wrote recently in The Atlantic about breaking off her three-year relationship with a man she described as ”intelligent, good-looking, loyal and kind”. She acknowledged ”there was no good reason to end things”, yet, at the time, she was convinced something was missing in the relationship. That was 11 years ago. She’s is now 39 and facing grim choices.
Then there is the true hate monger of short men, as found at this site.
Callie says
Stories like this always make me sad because there’s one demographic often forgotten about: the unattractive woman. The one who just wanted to date the not alpha guys, had no interest in them in the first place for their arrogance and also knew they’d be mocked for even looking in their direction. Who really liked the supposed beta men, not just as this second option but as a first. Who preferred them, who preferred their intelligence and humour to the frat boy antics of the alpha. But the beta only wanted the pretty “foxes”. The beta would chase after them, be rejected, say no women wanted him and pout all the while the not attractive woman would be there, pining. Sometimes she’d try to ask him out but he’d be offended. He deserved a fox you see! All men deserve foxes!
And then these men got older and finally got their wish, and all was well in the world.
Except those unattractive women, the non-existent women really one should say, since what use is a woman if she’s not a fox, never got their wish.
I get it, you were rejected in your 20s and then totally got a banging second wife and you’re awesome. Yay revenge or something. But know that you being rejected for your height was just like you rejecting a woman for her lack of being a fox. Women get rejected too all the time. And in some ways it’s even worse because it’s like they didn’t even exist in the first place. You certainly only seem to consider attractive women in your story. You never had any interest in the non-attractive ones. It’s like they never even existed in your world. But they did. They were all around you. They were just invisible to you. So yay for your happy revenge ending. Enjoy it. Not every person gets it. And while you get to rub it in the noses of all the foxes who are evidently desperate now and past their prime, there are all the women who would have totally dated you you wouldn’t give a chance who are still struggling. So . . . yay you . . .
Frank Johnson says
Miss Callie
I am a solid 7, maybe a 7.5. I can send you a photo as proof. The girls I dated were average as well. Well, maybe slightly above average, for I look at my first and second wife’s photos, and I count myself lucky to have loved them. As far as being unattractive, both men and women suffer from this. This along with height cannot be changed. And believe me, I have felt the sting of height rejection more than I care to remember.
I am not a professional writer and after looking at my words, fox was not the correct description. No doubt all men want a fox, but like tall men, there are only so many. I would replace it with attractive and compatible female. I knew I would never get a 10, and knew this years ago. I bet you are attractive, but have taken a few hits like me that affect your self-confidence. The hits did make me angry, but they also motivated me. You see this is my writing to combat heightism. I also studied and got better paying jobs to make my life better, this you can do as well. As far as revenge, this is not my intent. It is not in my heart. I only hate haters like this one below.
I can assure you that when I was alone and looking, if you had presented yourself to me, I would have taken you out. I wish I could take you in my arms and show you who I am, a few drinks, intimate sexual moments, etc. But I am married. I am an engineer, and words come hard to me, so at times I cannot convey my thoughts because I think better in numbers than in words. No noses rubbed in the dirt here. As a matter of fact, I have a dirt free environment rule in any relationship.
Dave says
Callie – You are absolutely right. An unfortunate fact of life is that when it comes to a woman – 98% of it is her beauty. She can have an IQ of 200, be a millionaire and own her own business empire. If she’s unattractive, the guy will still go for the cute waitress at Denny’s.
The good news is that when you do find someone he loves you for yourself and the qualities that matter. Beauty fades. Decency, goodness and integrity last a lifetime.
I can tell from your post that you’re a very good and decent person. Some guy is going to be very lucky when he finds you.
Brian says
I would be lying if I said looks were not important I will try to qualify that statement.
There is unattractive and there is unnatractive. What I find unnatractive is folks who make lifestyle choices that affect their appearance. Eating habits(obesity), and smoking are key examples. Then there is the heavy tacky makeup, badly dyed hair, tattoos, lip injections, a hoochy mama dress that is two sizes too small, or just a general lack of concern for ones appearance or wellbeing. These can all be signs of a deeper problem with the individual that might warrant professional help and are red flags for me. Also it’s not my job to help her fix that, it rarely works.
So my point being that natural physical beauty is not nearly as important as you think. I actually dated a gal would had a visible deformity, but in my eyes she was a doll. She was relatively fit and dressed in a cute way, and didn’t smoke.
GoWiththeFlow says
Frank,
You say the three tall women who dated you only did so because they were “past their prime” and therefore compromised an assumed (by you) previous position of not dating shorter men. You do not know this. Maybe they had always dated shorter men, or a variety of men of differing heights. You are making huge assumptions about what these ex-girlfriends of yours thought and how they behaved.
It’s surprising you judge women who desire to date men taller than themselves so harshly considering that what drove you to want to date them was that you were attracted to them because of their height: “I wanted a taller girl because of the physical turn on and to for fill one of my desires.” Not to mention you clearly have judged and “discriminated” against women based on their age: “I never dated with any intent of marrying a woman my age.” “Why go old, when I could go young? (Maybe the thought processes of the women who turned you down was “Why go short when I can go tall?”)
So it looks like when you make decisions to eliminate certain women as dating partners based on them lacking physical characteristics you find attractive, it’s reasonable and acceptable. But when women do the same thing it’s hateful discrimination that they deserve to burn in hell for. Got it.
To women you say “So my advice would be to accept the advances of all men and get to know them.” Why? Would you offer similar advice to men, to accept the advances of all women and get to know them? Did you do this yourself? What you wrote clearly shows that you did not. You aren’t offering this advice because you truly like and want to help women. You are delivering a come-uppance to women that represent hurts from your past.
“I remember going to singles events and seeing very pretty women, who were my age, who I know 15 years earlier wouldn’t have given me the time of day. And even now, may have looked better than myself, but now it was me who had no interest in approaching them.” Wow Frank, you showed them! You got back at all those mean girls who, back in the day, hurt your feelings.
This is a familiar sentiment seen on this blog: Adult men psychologically re-enacting rejection scenarios from their teens and 20s so they can rewrite an ending that better serves their ego. Let it go. You got hurt. It was unfair. By definition you will meet, interact, and date way more people than you marry. That means a lot of rejecting is going to be happening on both sides. It’s life.
Frank Johnson says
Miss Flow
You write, “So it looks like when you make decisions to eliminate certain women as dating partners based on them lacking physical characteristics you find attractive, it’s reasonable and acceptable.” I stated that taller girls were a turn on for me, but I NEVER rejected any girl due to her height of anything else, with the exception of being very fat. A few extra pound in the right areas was fine with me, pear shaped, no problem, average build, no problem, hour-glass, no problem. I excluded no one, but when it comes to women, a man’s height is all that matters. Tell me I am wrong after reading all the comments in this blog.
Discrimination against a women who is old? I wanted more children, and a younger woman will most like offer me a better opportunity for children than an older one. It is not personal; it is biological. When I was in my 20’s, age didn’t matter at all to me. But I was discriminated due to being 5’8”, and I had this said to my face by more than one or two women. And I bet other men reading my words can provide similar stories, as well.
Miss Flow, you wrote this,” To women you say <em>”So my advice would be to accept the advances of all men and get to know them.”</em> Why? Would you offer similar advice to men, to accept the advances of all women and get to know them? Did you do this yourself? What you wrote clearly shows that you did not. You aren’t offering this advice because you truly like and want to help women. You are delivering a come-uppance to women that represent hurts from your past.
Below are my exact words, and please re-read the bold, again
I could have provided a good life to any girl. I wanted a taller girl because of the physical turn on and to for fill one of my desires, yet not one single tall girl (in her 20’s) gave me a chance. I was turned down consistently and without a second thought. So, if you find yourself in your late 20’s or early 30’s with no prospect of a husband or children, you have no one to blame but yourself. There were men like me, who wanted a leggy female, but they, like me, were never accorded the opportunity. (This also applies to average height women, too) And the reality is that the vast majority of tall women will not even consider a shorter man until it is too late. You would think it would be obvious that if you included shorter males in your suitor selection, your odds would increase of finding a mate, for there are a lot more short and medium height males than there are taller ones. So my advice would be to accept the advances of all men and get to know them. I, who would have relished the opportunity of having curvy broad hips and a tapered waist to hold all night and to make love to into the early hours of the morning, was never, not once, even given a chance to start a relationship. Thus, throw away the yardstick, for you may find someone like me, who would love to share his life and love with a leggy lady.
You write, “Adult men psychologically re-enacting rejection scenarios from their teens and 20s so they can rewrite an ending that better serves their ego.”
I am not re-writing anything, but stating events in my life. You are applying your own bias against a man who is only detailing his life and how the dating game changed in his life time.
Dave says
Go with the flow – I understand what you’re saying. Frank seems very full of himself. But, in his defense, he doesn’t seem to be referring to women who simply want a man taller than themselves. He’s referring to shallow women who want an “alpha” male. The implication is a girl five feet nothing who only wanted some borderline circus freak. Girls like that ARE shallow and superficial in my opinion.
The thing that gets me is the stupidity of some women. The whole “alpha” thing seems to be about protection – and a guy’s height has NOTHING to do with his physical prowess or fighting ability. I think its this kind of woman that Frank is referring to.
If some girl got back at a man for blowing her off, most women would cheer her on. Frank is only doing the same. The BIG thing is, though, that the new wife, 14 years his junior, is probably only with him for the money, although no one can say for sure. After a certain marital duration she can blow him off and get half his money plus ongoing spousal support. When that happens his gloating will not seem so wise. The whole time she may only have been sleeping with the money.
I think this sort of thing happens all the time. In Frank’s defense, its incredibly shallow and callous and wrong and denotes a detestable woman if indeed that’s what is really going on.
Frank Johnson says
Dave
I have been married for 17 years, now. I think it will last, but you never know. Life is a crap shoot.
GoWiththeFlow says
Hi Dave,
You wrote:
“If some girl got back at a man for blowing her off, most women would cheer her on. Frank is only doing the same.”
If that was what really happened with Frank, I would be cheering him on, too.
This is what Frank wrote:
“I remember going to singles events and seeing very pretty women, who were my age, who I know 15 years earlier wouldn’t have given me the time of day. And even now, may have looked better than myself, but now it was me who had no interest in approaching them.”
Frank was going to events, meeting women for the first time ever, then conjuring up a story in his head that these women would have rejected him 15 years prior to his ever meeting them. So instead, in his mind, he preemptively rejected them first. That’s strange!
As for the whole issue of some women over-prioritizing height in a man. You’re right: They’re idiots! I don’t get it.
What I also don’t get is why Frank, who is an average height man, and who was successful enough with women that he had several girlfriends plus two wives, is so worked up about this to the point that he theorizes women’s “heightism” is leading to the destruction of marriages. Seriously, WTH?
Dave says
Frank – Irrespective of what the girls told you, it was more than your height. 5’8 – 5’11 is the average height range for American men. Plenty of attractive, desirable men at 5’8 have most any woman they want. A guy 5’8 who’s built, confident and handsome is jut as alpha as a guy 6′ plus – especially if he’s better looking and muscular. All other things are NEVER equal, so that ridiculous, often stated argument is out the window.
The thing with women going after your money in later life is this – they are attracted to the MONEY, not to you. You still are unattractive in their mind AS A MAN when they’re in bed with you. They are sleeping with the MONEY. You must just have never had it in the physical department and it had to do with more than your height. Like I said, plenty of attractive guys 5’8 get hot women. You act like 5’8 is 5’2 or something. It was more than just you being 5’8. Money may get shallow women, but they are not attracted to you in the MAN department – which is where it really counts.
That said, plenty of women ditch alpha males after years and years together because people fall out of love. Height is way overrated and women realize after years with a guy they can later barely stand that his height no longer means anything to them at all.
A man’s physical attraction is WAY more than his height. This vastly displaced emphasis on height by shallow, superficial women is WAY overdone. There are, though, plenty of attractive women out there who aren’t that stupid.
Frank Johnson says
Dave
Thank you for writing, but your 5 cent evaluation of me is more your personal fantasy than my reality. You wrote, “A man’s physical attraction is WAY more than his height. This vastly displaced emphasis on height by shallow, superficial women is WAY overdone. There are, though, plenty of attractive women out there who aren’t that stupid.” Dave, I offer you the following comments that I pulled from a few dating sites. Please read below. I can provide many more if you want or you can look at match.com and read them yourself.
Today at a restaurant I overheard a group of women talking about short and tall men. These girls ranged from probably 5’1″ – 5’8″ sitting right next to me and another guy I was having lunch with. They were ranging from 3/10 to 8/10 in the looks department and aged probably between 20-40. One girl of 5’3″ even said that her 6’3″ boyfriend was the “ideal perfect height”. WTF?!? That is a foot taller than her! He has to bend down 12 inches to kiss her! How does that work, surely her ideal would be around 5’7″??? Another girl said that she felt “so protected” when wrapped in the arms of her 6’2″ boyfriend and shorter men couldn’t offer that. Another girl of 5’5″ said she dated a 5’8″ man once and hated it – she said “never again”… which followed with a bout of scornful laughter from the other girls. Another girl of about 5’6” said all men under 6 foot were “pathetic”
I was at a bar last night with some of my friends. A shorter guy hit on my very attractive friend. She politely said she wasn’t interested but after he was gone my group seemed to just rag on this guy about how pathetic it was for a shorter guy to hit on her. I couldn’t believe it. I spoke up about it and even used the analogy to calling a girl fat. Apparently it’s not the same according to them. I just told them they were all being incredibly shallow and they just laughed it off and told me to go make the guy feel better.
One participant said that she “would rather pour acid on [her] eyes than date someone shorter than her.” YIKES! How would you feel if a guy told you it was “just awkward” to date you because your thighs are bigger than his? (You know it’s true) It wouldn’t feel too great.
‘I am a shade over 5ft 11in and when I walk into a bar I look around and can instantly dismiss all but about three or four guys. What are the chances that the remaining few who are as tall or taller than me (I am 6ft 4in in heels) are going to be of interest? My shorter friends have the pick of hundreds of men in the same venue. I don’t want to date someone who is a giant, but they have to be at least the same height as me, and that’s non-negotiable. Sadly that means I have next to no choice on a night out.’ Sally, 30
‘I am 5ft 6in and wouldn’t ever consider dating a man shorter than me. Ever. I would only really contemplate a man over 6ft. I know that rules out half the male population, but it’s really important to me to feel enveloped and protected by a man. The feeling of having a tall man wrap his arms around me makes me feel safe – it reminds me of feeling protected by my father. Whether that’s a good or bad thing, I don’t know, but given I’ve been single for three years, I’m guessing it’s a bad thing!’ Harriet, 35
Dave, I do make a six figure income. But when I married my second wife, I was right in the middle with everyone else. Also, she propose to me to marry her, so did my first wife and another girlfriend. I also dated a girlfriend for 3 1/2 years in college. Tall girls were a turn on, not an obsession, after the tall girl rejections, I approached girls closer to my height and got dates and relationships.
Dave says
Frank – Sorry if I offended you. I was only going by what you wrote. I realize now that what you were saying is that you only struck out with girls taller than you. With others you did just fine.
You make my point FOR me. Yes, its true that many women who are taller than the man find that a turnoff. But, when the man is taller than her (as in your case now) HE DOES JUST FINE.
My point is that most women don’t need some goonishly tall guy who awkwardly towers over them. In fact, I think most people find the most attractive couples to be those where the man has 3-5 inches on the woman, not where the man goonishly towers over the girl. That, in my opinion, tends to look ridiculous.
In terms of the things you gleaned from dating sites. Again, you MAKE my point. The girl that said her foot-taller boyfriend was the ideal height is, in my opinion, an idiot. That statement is ridiculous on its face. That height difference looks almost clownish, in my opinion, to most reasonable people.
The one that said she feels so protected and a short man can’t do that – as I said in another post – height has nothing to do with fight – a guy’s physical prowess and ability to protect a woman – his fighting ability – has very, very little to do with his height. When she sees him get his ass kicked by a guy 5’9 who can really handle himself – let’s see how protected she feels then – like an idiot.
I used to fight in the ring. I’ve hammered lots of tall guys to the canvas and to the ground in the street and in the bar room parking lots. I can tell you from experience that physical prowess has very little correlation to height in the real world. HEIGHT isn’t size. SIZE is size. And even then, many times the smaller man beats the hell out of the bigger one in real life.
The woman who said that all men under 6′ are pathetic is the REALLY pathetic one herself. Brad Pitt is 5’11. By her assessment, BRAD PITT is PATHETIC! Does that sound right to you? By her way of thinking, young versions of Paul Newman, Robert Redford, Marlon Brando and Brad Pitt are pathetic. She’s laughable. She’s ridiculous. She makes an ass out of herself by making such a ludicrous statement.
In terms of the woman who shot down the “shorter” guy. What does “shorter” mean? Does it mean he was actually shorter than her? Does it mean he was below the 5’8-5’11 average height range for American men? There’s not really enough information there to make an accurate assessment. They don’t give the guy’s height. If he was 5’3 and she was super hot and 5’6 or something then its understandable.
All this MAKES my point. This vastly displaced emphasis on height by SOME superficial and SHALLOW women is, when you really tear into it, ridiculous. Many women are not that stupid. What if the tall guy is ugly as hell and the average sized guy is extremely handsome? Do these laughably shallow women still pick the tall guy? If so, they’re just plain stupid. They’re just plain brain-dead and ludicrous.
ARE there stupid, brain-dead and ludicrous women out there? Of course there are. Does that make it reasonable to be stupid and brain-dead and ludicrous? Hell no. Does that mean most other women concur with being that way? Hell no
Frank Johnson says
Mr. Dave
I was not insulted by you. You have a right to your opinion. We are exchanging ideas and thoughts as free men in a free society in a civilized way. With your views, you force me to think and respond. This exposes me to new thoughts and ideas I never had before. Thus, I learn from you. I do disagree with you on “stupid, brain-dead and ludicrous women out there” when it comes to height. My guess is women between the ages of 18-25, close to 40-50% fall into this thought pattern. I wish it were a small percentage, but it is not, and looking at various dating sites, you can easily see mandatory height requirements posted. Furthermore, men are expected to accept all body types of women. People magazine had as a cover girl a 5’5”, 280 pound woman, stating that larger women are being accepted in American society. But when it comes to a man’s height, there is only the 6’ gold standard.
Eventually, the majority of females come to their senses, not because of any reasoning, but rather there are only so many guys 6’ or taller. Thus, they have no choice. And I think this leads to relationship issues in the future, for she believes she lost out on the 6’ guy and had to settle. Women since birth have been fed the Disneyland/Hollywood 6’ prince charming/leading man as the norm for society. And anything less than that is just that, less.
Go to this site. You can find more like her easily.
I got into a discussion with her and listed all her rants as nonsense. Over and over again her response was I was acting like a short man. When I exposed her thought process as exactly what a racist uses to devalue a human being, and she was using it to devalue a man based upon height, her actions was to delete all that I wrote and replace it with insults about me.
Dave says
Frank – I think plenty of tall guys get divorced just like everybody else. Most divorces are filed by women. I don’t think its so much that the woman thinks she missed out on the tall guy. I think its more that the tall guy she got – she no longer wants. For so much emphasis to be placed on how high a guy’s head sticks up in the air is ridiculous – height can never possibly maintain the importance artificially extended to it initially. So, she trashes the tall guy, his height now not mattering to her at all.
Height does not exist in a vacuum. There are lots of other variables. Handsome beats height hands-down every time. Strength beats height. Extreme confidence beats height. What if the tall guy looks like Uncle Fester, (TV character perhaps before your time) an ugly dude – or gangling or scrawny or weird looking in general? What if the shorter guy is extremely handsome? Is a woman going to disregard everything for height?
If the guy less than 6′ is Brad Pitt is she still going to chose a 6′ guy? Is that 6′ guy her prince over Brad Pitt or Paul Newman or Robert Redford? That’s insane.
People may respond, “yes, but all other things being equal…” – All other things are NEVER equal in real life.
Just because there are websites where some women cling to the height thing does not eliminate the myriad of other factors that invariably come into play in real life. The woman you cite is an example. Once you dragged her over the coals and destroyed her height-argument – she evidenced her true colors as an idiot.
Another thing is that there is such a thing as TOO tall. 6’5 and above is way outside the normal curve – especially when paired with a girl who’s not tall herself. They look ridiculous together because of the goonish height difference.
Yes, there are shallow women who are hung up on height. But I’d wager they’d blow the tall guy off in a heart beat if the average height guy were much more handsome or confident or charismatic or a musician or any number of factors that come into play in real life and not just in the artificial atmosphere of a dating site.
And like I said at the onset – plenty of tall guys end up getting blown-off by women eventually. The irrational value and importance given height at the onset just plain cannot stand the test of time.
Marc says
Any advice for shorter men? I’m 5’1″ and don’t care about a woman’s height but women do care! Even women shorter than 5’1″ reject me. Even though I have a decent and stable job with a steady income and above average pay. Should short men just give up on dating and accept that they are not loved by women at all?
GoWiththeFlow says
Marc,
I am woman who is 5’2″ and prefer men who are shorter rather than taller. Let’s just say that things line up better at–ahem–critical moments 😉
Dave says
Marc – Hell no you don’t give up! Just keep on keepin’ on and exude confidence even if you sometimes feel less than confident. When you do find someone – and you will – you’ll know you have someone of substance and not some phony, shallow, synthetic woman. Go for the really short and petite types. In the process you may just catch the eye of a girl a little taller than you, which is perfectly OK.
Don’t look for the knockout punch. Just keep punchin’ and the knockout will eventually come.
There is a time to give up and that time is NEVER.
Make this your rule number one – “Nothing is ever over ’till I WIN.”
Janie Overby says
I got dumped by a guy that was poor stupid and fat and he said that I was the one that wasn’t worth a relationship
Sandy says
I am a 57 year old woman who did struggle in the dating world. I have been 5’10” since I was about 14. In my time, it was the in thing for the man to be taller. Dating in the 1970’s onward was not fun for me. My shorter girlfriends always had dates or boyfriends. I was a tall, skinny girl. The guys back then did not sway towards me, bec of my height. I dated both tall and shorter men. The shorter men had no problem with me being taller. The taller men, on the other hand, wanted a women who was shorter. Their reasoning… it was a manly version of being the protector, and the provider. Apparently, tall women did not need that. They could take care of themselves. Hogwash. We needed that too! We already feel imposing because of our height. I spent alot of years alone. Dated some. I found most men wanted above average eye candy, certain age range, certain weight and height requirements. None of which fit me. I married once. We were about the same height. Divorced five years afterwards. Waited over 30 years, but just got married again 7 months ago to a man who is about 2 inches shorter than me. He is not threatened by my height. Kudos to women out there who do not limit themselves. You just might miss out on the best thing that ever happened to you.
Jonathan Ekubor says
Standing at 5 feet 4 inches I have never once in my life had a chance at a real relationship. Women even shorter than me discriminate. The women that I have been involved with either strung me along or never wanted to commit. Because of this Obsession of height I often struggle with self-esteem and confidence issues. I resorted to online dating I noticed that I got a lot of matches and compliments and messages. However once meeting in person I was immediately judged and after the date they became withdrawn and distant or nunresponsive. I feel like I have been genetically predisposed to being alone my whole life. I haven’t even tried to look up ways to naturally increase my height but it is simply impossible.
Frank Johnson says
In an apartment complex that I lived in Houston, there was a loose knit collection of about 10-15 singles. We would meet at the pool on the weekends, and have informal parities. If one person knew of a singles event, they would inform the rest, and whoever wanted could attend. I even dated one of the girls in the group for a short time.
In the group, was an attractive girl named Heidi. She was a degreed professional in the oil business. And you couldn’t miss her. She was 5’11”, blonde hair, with blue eyes. She had broad curvy hips and an hour glass waist. She, needless to say, she got the attention of single men.
One Saturday, I was catching rays and drinking beer with some of the other guys at the complex pool, when one man I knew walked up to the group of us. He stated that he had proposed to Heidi, and she had turned him down. He approached us in the off chance that someone might know Heidi and put the good word in for him with her. Sometime later, I was at a different pool in the same complex. There was a water polo game in progress, one man with a boom box was playing about 10 feet from me, and about 10 feet in the other direction were two girls from the group talking about how Heidi had rejected two other guy’s marriage proposals. I wasn’t getting all the details of the conversation due to noise at the pool and that fact I didn’t really care, so I don’t know if the two girls were jealous of Heidi getting the attention of these two men, or if these women were mocking these guys as losers, due to Heidi rejecting them. But what this proves is Heidi was getting the attention of single men.
Fast forward 12 years, one child and one divorce later on my part. A friend wanted me to join a dating agency. He would get a bonus if I joined, and I could join at a discount. I said before I join, I wanted to see what the single girls in the agency looked like. I was given a binder of women 30-34 years of age. In the binder, were pages of women. At the top of the page, in about 1 inch high letters was the girl’s name, then below that a 2″x3″ photo of her and below that 3 or 4 paragraphs that she wrote of herself. I started looking, and I could not have been page to page 7 or 8, when I noticed the name Heidi. I took a good look and it was her. I quickly scanned her paragraphs. I remembered a phrase of one sentence, it read, “34 years old, never married, no children.” I thought how could this be? I knew of three men who wanted to marry her, and in the 12 years that had passed since I last saw her, there must have been more. How was it possible she never married given all the advantages she had? What dating parameters did she employ that failed her so miserably that resulted in her being a childless spinster given all the physical advantages she had?
In in a social setting, if she were not the most desirable girl, she certainly was one of the more desirable girls. And I am here to tell you Heidi could have had absolutely any guy she wanted, and I mean any guy. And if a poll had been taken by the single guys in the complex who would be the childless spinster of the complex, Heidi’s name would not have been at the top of the list. What had she done with her life? How was it possible she never married? Did she think at the age of 34, she would have a bigger and better selection of single males than when she was 24?
I suspect in her 20’s, she had a male qualification list as long as her in inseam, and if a male were lacking any of these parameters, the guy was rejected. She kept saying no to men, until there were no men to say no, to.
I also suspect that since all during her early years, she was used to getting plenty of male attention, and assumed the future would be like her past. Why would it change? And in her years 17-26, she most likely was the crème de la crème. But as she entered her late 20’s, much to her dismay, there were lots of younger girls, many prettier and more approachable, meaning shorter. At 5’11” she was taller than 99% of the women, 80% of the men and at 28 years of age, older than 95% of both men and women in a single’s bar. She stood out like a sore thumb due to her height and age.
How her story ends? I don’t know. I didn’t join the dating agency. But it was Heidi’s actions and Heidi’s actions alone that made her single. She wasted her youth and fertility using extremely flawed dating parameters that she created and refused to change these parameters in spite of years of obvious failure.
Albany, NY.
I was taking a training class in Albany, NY, in the year 2000. A co-worker was looking over a singles web site on a computer during a break. The site allowed you to read, but to write, you needed to join the site. I remember seeing a photo of a girl 21, who looked marginal at best. We’re not talking about some curvaceous model with a beautiful face, but a rather plain girl. She was 6’1”. She said in her introduction that it would be hard for you (the reader) to believe that she would most likely be alone this weekend. She claimed to be a wonderful person, fun, outgoing, friendly. She stated she was tall, VERY tall. And “shorties need not apply.” How is that for a condescending attitude concerning a man’s height? And you wonder why, shorter men are reluctant to approach a taller woman.
Dave says
I’m 5’9″ and have found that my height has severely limited my dating options. I don’t have a problem with that. Guys have their preferences too. It does make it harder for me, but I’ve found that the girls I do attract are a better fit for me. Girls who are less superficial tend to have other qualities I like such as intelligence, culture, sophistication, confidence, more education, etc. of course that has just been my experience. I’m sure there are girls who prefer tall guys that have those qualities as well. I do have to make more effort in terms of putting myself out there, and meeting as many women as I can. It’s simple math. The more women I meet, the more chances of meeting a woman comfortable with my height. I would much rather go through all that trouble than dating a girl that has to compromise on her height requirements just to be with me.
Michael says
I’m 5 foot 10 and view the height thing as a good way of eliminating women. If a woman says she will only date men over 5 foot 7 I’ll not respond to their messages as for me I don’t want to date someone who is that fixated on height.
I think the problem is with internet dating is that it makes you think that you have a lot of power as you see thousands of profiles. Sadly what you don’t see is the thousands of other people competing for the same profiles. So a woman might see 10 guys over 6 foot tall and think there’s so many to choose from, however those 10 guys are getting bombarded with messages from 100s of women. Same for the overweight men who see the incredibly skinny blonde women and refuse to consider any others.
I’ve actually seen some profiles online and thought “well I’d love to date an Olympian who has won a Noble prize too, but sadly I don’t think that exists”.
Adam says
As a guy at 4’8 when people laugh at a short guy asking out a girl taller than him you of course attract ridicule and humorous jokes (most are sexual) and she only says yes to a “as friends only date”
I been inspired by the movie “Who Framed Roger Rabbit” on self depricating humor to get back at people and all the time they laugh but at the same time can’t handle it.
Michael says
The bottom line is STAY OFFLINE.
Online women are egotistical. They get so many emails from men, that they start believing they are all 10’s, when if fact many are lucky if they are old, washed up, 5’s. If I had the difference between what these women were worth, and what they think they are worth, I would be a billionaire.
Kinshasa says
As a taller woman, I think a number of the comments on here about not discriminating others based on height aren’t realistic. Men in general like to have a petite woman who makes him feel strong(so I’ve heard). Women who are well UNDER 5’8 HAVE A LARGER percentage of eligible men to choose from and these men WILL most likely be taller than her anyways. I think most women like that feeling of a taller guy hugging them. A woman 5’8 or taller may not get that opportunity based on the available tall men who would actually date a tall women. It’s not shallow for a girl to prefer a tall guy. Just like it’s not shallow for most men to be wired as visual beings. It’s just the way it is folks! Personally, I’d love to date a tall dude 6’6 or so again. It was fun. I felt very feminine and enjoyed being with a man way taller than me. But let’s be realistic folks, most men want a women significantly shorter than him. There may be some men who don’t care how tall a woman is but that’s not the majority. i guess my point is everyone has preferences, try not to take it so personal. If someone doesn’t like you because of your height…guy or girl… So what! Keep it movin until you meet someone that likes you for you… EVERY INCH OF YOU!
Dave says
Kinshasa – Just because we label something a preference doesn’t mean its not shallow. If a women has a “preference” for only, let’s say, rich guys – she’s still a shallow gold digger. With all respect, your argument seems somewhat flawed to me. First, as a man who knows a lot of other men and how they think – “most” men don’t necessarily want only a petite woman. Some guys are like that but here’s the difference – they don’t EXCULDE other types of women just because of that. They are still OPEN to other types of women. Many women EXCLUDE guys who are not tall. This is evidenced by all this shallow “don’t answer my profile if you’re not 6′ ” shallow garbage. And these women are essentially stupid. Think of it. Brad Pitt is 5’11. Do you think it would be OK for HIM to answer the profile? Robert Downey Jr. is 5’8. I wonder if HE’S good enough for these shallow sorts of women. By this criterion, Paul Newmann and Robert Redford would be excluded. See what I mean?
As for the example of a woman 5’8. The vast majority of women are not 5’8. That is very tall for a woman. In fact 5’8-5’11 is an American MAN’S average height range. I can understand if a woman that tall does not want a short guy. I understand completely that a woman does not want a man shorter than her. That does not address, however, all the shallow 5′ woman who will reject a guy who’s not a foot taller. That is just plain shallow to the point of being sickening.
And as for being hugged by a tall guy – if the tall guy is ugly and scrawny, would you rather be hugged by him or by a built, handsome, average-height guy? And the “yeah, but all other things being equal” argument doesn’t fly – all other things are NEVER equal in real life.
As for wanting to be with a “tall dude 6’6 or so again” – If that dude was so great because of his height, where is he now? Unless he’s the one who broke it off with you, it seems that height wasn’t “great” enough by itself to keep the relationship together. The artificial, way-overblown value attached to height at the onset hardly ever stands the test of time precisely because it IS so overrated and irrational. This is especially true with the ridiculous “I feel protected by a tall guy” argument. There are plenty – and I mean plenty – of shorter guys out there that can beat the hell out of most tall guys. How “protected” is a girl by a tall guy who gets his ass kicked by a shorter one? How “feminine” does a woman feel with that tall guy after that? A lot of tall guys get by on height until their bluff gets called and they get their ass kicked by an average-height guy who can really handle himself.
And don’t get me wrong, here. I don’t wish to be offensive. Your post seems honest and genuine. I’m sure you’re a fine person. You have as much right to your opinion as I have to mine. I’m simply expressing what I, myself , think here – and I would venture a guess that most men and a whole lot of the non-shallow, non-height obsessed women out there agree with me.
This obsession with height by SOME, not all, women, is shallow and ridiculous. A guy’s height has VERY little to do with his physical prowess or his ability to protect a women. A woman who only wants to hear from a tall guy (when doing on-line dating, for instance) and rejects other guys may very well be hearing from some tall, scrawny, gangling and ugly dude and passing up a built, handsome and charismatic average-height or shorter-height guy. In my opinion that is sickeningly shallow and outright stupid.
Emily says
I have always thought it was stupid when girls that were 5’2 had the over 6′ preference. Like seriously, do all these women want C-sections because most of my friends that height with boyfriends taller than me have needed them.
I’m the only one of my high school friends that isn’t married. I’m 34 and I’m 5’10. For me, it seems fair to at least want a guy my height. That might cut my pool to like 20 % of available men, but so be it. Online dating sucks for this, because I’d say at least half of the guys who say they’re my height are actually 2 inches shorter, and that’s with me wearing the flattest of flats. It probably wouldn’t bother me if it didn’t bother them though, chances are my kids would still be tall with a shorter husband, and any daughters I have might not have the problems I’ve had.
That’s what it comes down to most though, it’s all about offspring. Short women want to have taller kids. To the guys out there afraid to approach a taller woman, don’t be. So long as its only a few inches shorter, it doesn’t make a big difference when you’re lying down 😉
Dave says
Emily,
You’re right. But its about more than just the C section thing. It’s just plain incredibly stupid for shrimp-like girls to demand a guy be over 6 feet tall. What if some really handsome, built, intelligent and caring guy comes along who’s average height (5’8″ – 5’11” in the states)? Are they going to stick to their ridiculous criterion then? And if they then abandon that criterion it shows how shallow it was in the first place! It really is just plain stupid.
And no, there’s nothing wrong with you wanting a man to be at least as tall as you are. I think most of us get that. But again, women who demand this one narrow height requirement are pathetically shallow and stupid. Attraction is an overall package of which height is only a small part. Plus, height can never live up to the initial way-overblown importance accorded it at the onset of a relationship. It fades with time and the girl blows the guy off for a more handsome average-height guy.
As long as a man is average height – handsome beats height every time. Strength beats height every time. Brass and confidence beats height every time. THESE attributes last. The appeal of height fades as the relationship progresses. Height is WAY overrated.
In addition, when the height difference is too disparate, it looks ridiculous. When a 5’3″ girl is with a 6″6″ guy it simply looks weird.
And what really gets me is when women post that their EX was 6’5″ or 6’7″ or whatever. If height is such an incredibly important factor – then why is he your EX!?
And your right – when you’re laid-out height does not matter. I used to fight in the ring in my youth. When I laid a tall guy out in front of thousands of people I guarantee his height did not matter at all. He was not thinking he was too cool for school on THAT night.
You sound like a very good, decent, level-headed women. Something tells me you’re going to find someone special very soon.
Carolyn says
Men are looking for feminine attractiveness. This includes a pretty face with clear even toned unblemished skin, small feminine features, and large eyes. A thin shapely body with an appealing behind is also important, according to statistics. Men also usually do not want a women who is taller than them. It also helps if a woman has an agreeable pleasant nurturing personality, but without the appearance, this is usually meaningless to men. Women on the other hand are looking for masculine power. This power can be physical, meaning height, broad shoulders, and over all musculature, or it can mean financial, social, or political power. Where men lack power in one area, they can make up for it in another area. The examples of, Tom Cruise, Hugh Heffner, Napoleon, Woody Allen, and Dudley Moore can help to prove my point. However, a woman can work very hard, be very successful financially, and all of her achievements do not mean anything in the area of romance. I think short men are great. I am intelligent, successful, petite, pretty, and pleasant, but I am 50 and not absolutely drop dead gorgeous, so I almost never date.
Skeqflux says
Carolyn,
youre right in some ways, but women don’t want ugly, hairy men with blemished skin either. The fact that women will settle for a guy they’re not attracted to physically because he has money is a *bad* thing to most guys. Who wants someone who uses them for money despite being repulsed?
its true men don’t care how successful or accomplished a woman is in most cases, but it also doesn’t *hurt*. Men also have *far* wider physical standards.
the fact is for most short guys, they’re going to really struggle to find a girl who is actually attracted to them. If they’re also average looking and in average shape, they’ll have a harder time than the ugliest, most obese, women.
the only reason women feel it’s “so hard to find men” is because they only consider 15% of the male population to actually be human men
janon says
Good entry, but the reality is women would rather die alone than “lower their standards” and slum it with a short guy.
They *might* settle for 5’10” as it slowly starts to dawn on them that it really *is* true that only 15% of the male population is over 6′ despite somehow *every* female commentor on social media claiming to have a 6’+ guy
Of course exceptions might be made if you’re *really* wealthy. The question is, as a really wealthy short guy, is your self esteem worth it? Knowing that your basically buying the affection of a woman who is repulsed by you and would rather be sleeping with a 6’2″ guy flipping burgers?
No one should have to settle for someone who is repulsed by them but will use them for resources and comfort.
And the answer from women will be “men are the same”, “men are no better”, “what about blah blah”
Even if that’s true, statistics have shown that 80% of women only find 15% of men attractive and that 80% of men find 90% of women attractive.
And for *most* men, “attractive” is the beginning *and* ending on their list. Here is the male “criteria” for a woman:
1) do *I* find her “hot”
2) is she crazy
Women have:
1) height
2) facial symmetry/handsomenesss
3) build/body type/weight
4) penis size
5) race
6) skin
7) body hair (lack of)
8) head hair (perfect or perfectly bald)
9) wealth
10) education (see 9)
…
19) sense of humor
20) “sensitivity”/supportiveness
Yet Another Guy says
I know that this blog entry is old, but this comment is priceless. Men really do only have two major requirements for a woman. Does she pass what I like to refer to as the “I’d do her” test? Is she reasonably sane? All other attributes are negotiable. Passing a woman’s “I’d do him test” test merely opens the door to being tested for one thousand other attributes, any of which is almost an immediate disqualifier.
Marika says
Help me out, YAG. Does kids your kids’ age come under 1 or 2? Education level? Girly-girl is 1? I’m guessing not being a grandma is 1 also? Which means you don’t find the likes of Goldie Hawn or Raquel Welch attractive? Actually Raquel would be out as she presumably wouldn’t pass the Google data mining test due to the multiple divorces..
Dave says
janon,
Basically, most of what you say here is nonsense. Show me the “statistics” you are referring to relative to women only finding 15% of men attractive – not the 15% male height statistics – actual studies that reached the conclusion that only 15% of men re considered attractive by women. That’s just plain ridiculous.
Height is number one? OK, so if one guy is 6′ and average looking she’s going to chose him over an average height range (5’8 – 5’11 in America) guy who’s considerably more handsome, right? That is complete nonsense. Handsome beats height every time. Strength beats height every time. Charisma beats height every time as long as a guy is average height, even maybe a little shorter if he’s got enough of these other attributes.
By your criteria Paul Newmann, Robert Redford, Marlon Brando, Brad Pitt and Robert Downy Jr. get blown off for an average looking or even ugly tall guy. That is, again, ridiculous.
How about if the women sees the tall guy get his ass kicked by the shorter one? How great is he then? Zero – that’s how great.
What you are doing is taking YOUR preferences and expressing them as fact for ALL women. That’s childishly presumptuous. I know FAR more about what women like than you do – because I am a man who’s been sexually with almost fifty different women in my lifetime so far. I KNOW what they dig because I have the experience to back it up. How many women have you been with sexually? You have no idea what you’re talking about. You only know YOUR OWN preferences and maybe those of a few of your “gal pals”.
Nothing wears off faster than the superficiality of height once a relationship has lasted any length of time. Height can never live up to the initial importance accorded it at the onset precisely because it IS so superficial.
I’m 5’9. I’m older now but I never had any problem in my youth because I was average height, built and handsome. But, what you are doing here by the things you are saying is being wrongly and callously dismissive of short men while many of the things you say are ridiculous. Wealth is number one for many women. Many women LIKE excessive body hair. Many women are turned off by bald guys, “beautifully bald” or not. Many, MANY women put your number twenty much higher on their list – among other ridiculous things you’ve said here that I’ll refrain from pointing out.
Fortunately, there are many good women out there that have far different standards than the ones you erroneously state in your post as being the priorities of all women – when you are only speaking for yourself. And the tone of your post suggests that you could care less about hurting the feelings of short men even though you are only expressing your OWN opinion as fact.
Would you want someone posting their own personal preferences as if they’re established and general truth – and hurting YOUR feelings when you’re doing nothing more then stating your own opinion as fact? Of course you wouldn’t.
Emily, the original says
Dave,
Show me the “statistics” you are referring to relative to women only finding 15% of men attractive
She’s quoting an OK Cupid study that Evan wrote about:
Women, on the whole, are far more discerning than men when it comes to physical attraction. In the linked OkCupid study, women think that 80% of men are BELOW average in attractiveness, when, in a normal distribution, that number should be 50%.
SparklingEmerald says
That same study said the men only wrote to the 9’s and 10’s, even thought they rated them “fairly”. So while they may acknowledge a woman as “above average” (hence giving her a rating of 7), they still wouldn’t ask her out. Yet somehow men have siezed upon this non-scientific “study” as proof that men are more laid back about looks than women.
Emily, the original says
Yet somehow men have seized upon this non-scientific “study” as proof that men are more laid back about looks than women.
I think, in a lot of ways, they are. I don’t know how accurate the study was or how scientifically it was conducted. But overall, I think women find a much smaller number of men attractive than the number of women men find attractive.
For my own very non-scientific and overly bias study, I asked 2 male colleagues how many women they encounter in their day (working, going to the store, getting coffee, etc.) who they find attractive. They both said 50 percent. I was astounded. If there is an attractive man who shows up where I work, the news spreads unbelievably fast and all the women are talking about it because it’s so rare.
Shaukat says
@SE,
I believe you raised this point on another thread as well, and I pointed out the obvious flaw in this reasoning. The study simply stated that ‘9s’ and ’10s’ received the most messages (no surprise), but didn’t draw the unfounded conclusion that men ‘wouldn’t ask out’ the 7s. You’re mixing up separate issues. If a man takes a shot and asks out a super model, you can’t infer from that act that he would never ask out an average or slightly above average woman. The 7s get plenty of messages.
Dave says
SparklingEmerald,
It is obvious that you are not a man. If you were you would realize that a genuine 9 or 10 is not just viewed as “fairly” but is actively pursued by lots and lots of men. The VAST majority of women are NOT 9’s or 10’s. These constitute the real knockouts that can almost have their pick of guys.
I know a lot of other men and have discussed women with other men many, many times. If a women is above average and is a full blown 7 we have NO problem with asking her out.
If this so-called study claimed these ridiculous things I would respectfully submit that it is an extremely FLAWED study and simply does not reflect any measure – whatsoever – of general , everyday common sense and reality.
SparklingEmerald says
Shaukat and Dave –
Dave said “If this so-called study claimed these ridiculous things I would respectfully submit that it is an extremely FLAWED study and simply does not reflect any measure — whatsoever — of general , everyday common sense and reality.”
Dave did you notice I called this a “non-scientific ‘study'”. I too think this so called “study” is rather ridiculous. However, my point is that men grab onto one half of the study about women’s sexual preference as the absolute gospel truth as proof positive that ALL women are shallowly obsessessed with looks, but discount the other half of the study showing that men are just as shallow with all kinds of nonsense.
Let’s face it, for both men and women, attraction is an ESSENTIAL part of a relationship. But so many men are so bitter that women have a say in who they are attracted, but think it’s perfectly OK for men.
I accept that one of the biggest drivers of attraction is looks based, so I made the most of my looks when I was dating, and still do now that I am engaged. I know I have rejected good men who would have been good partners due to lack of attraction, and always feel bad when I do that, but not too bad, because attraction is in the eye of the beholder. There is a great gal out there for him for whom he could find MUTUAL attraction. I know that looks wise, while I am certainly not ugly, I don’t have the type of look that is broadly appealing to men. (I have more of a “cutesy” look as opposed to “gorgeous” and most men prefer gorgeous over cutsey.) But so what ? I was never trying to build a harem of men. I was only looking for ONE. And while I don’t have that mythical “9” or”10″ ranking for MOST men, I do have a small “niche” appeal to a small sub-set of men. Voila, that is MY dating pool. And while I find a good percentage of men attractive on an intellectual level, I am only attracted to a small percentage myself. So combine the two, and the overlap shrinks the pool even further. Then once mutual attraction is established, (which happens fairly quickly for most people) the longer task of establishing compatibility begins.
I accept that I am not most guys ‘type’. Mostly for factors I have no control over. And some men I don’t find attractive for reasons I can’t put my finger on, and some men I know EXACTLY why (smoking, morbid obesity, and a HUGE bushy, scratchy, all over the face, super long beard beard)
And so what to all of that, we ALL our mostly hard wired as to what we are attracted to, men and women BOTH. And both genders who get past college age un-coupled and want to be coupled have difficulties and challenges. I really do tire of the men who complain that women have a say in who they find attractive, and think that any average looking woman has it so easy, because she could “blink” and have men lining up to screw her for a one night stand. Since most women don’t want a one night stand, that is certainly no prize, and is in fact quite annoying.
In conclusion, I don’t need ALL men to find me sexy, nor am I attracted to MOST men, and I actually believe that is quite typical. If you are looking to find just ONE person to be with, why do you (you general) need everyone on the planet to be attracted to you.
I don’t think it is “shallow” to want to be attracted to your partner. Since mutual attraction is essential to a relationship, it is just a fact of life. And of course compatibility is important to, but I don’t see too many people getting berated for seeking compatiblity, so no need to address that.
What I think is really shallow, is trying to force an attraction to someone where none exists. I don’t want to be the girl someone settled for, and I don’t want to be wincing and cringing while I am giving “a chance” to the great guy I just am not feeling it for.
Think that never happens ? Search the archives of this blog, I re-call TWO columns on this topic, one heartbreaking letter from a woman who MARRIED a man, that she was not attracted to, and one from a woman who was dating a guy who was good to her, but she didn’t feel it for him. Women do men no favors when they try to force a relationship with a man to whom they are not attracted.
Dave said “It is obvious that you are not a man.” Um, OK, thanks I guess, and thanks for stating the obvious.
SparklingEmerald says
Emily said “I asked 2 male colleagues how many women they encounter in their day (working, going to the store, getting coffee, etc.) who they find attractive. They both said 50 percent. I was astounded.”
I think men consider women on a two tier system of attractiveness, 2nd Tier women are women attractive enough to screw, but are not considered girl-friend material, and the 1st Tier women are attractive enough to be considered for a girlfriend.
I even read an article from a MAN’s point of view that said that men know right away if a woman is in his “girlfriend” category or in the sex only category. So the onus is on women who are looking for love, to determine if the man she is seeing, sees her as a potential love partner, or just someone fun to play with until he finds a woman beautiful enough to love.
For a woman who doesn’t mind if sex leads to a relationship or not, this is of little consequence, but for women who want more, they have to be discerning, because while average looking and above women can find sex quite easily, finding love is more difficult. Notice I said “more difficult”, not impossible.
Fromkin says
Nope nope nope. You’re over complicating it. My buddies and I, in that 80% considered below average by OkCupid women, considered an enormous percentage of the women around us (age 30 plus or minus) to be attractive. They all were girlfriend material in that respect, though of course that wasn’t our call.
I still consider a large number of women my age (50) to be attractive, though I think the percentage has dropped.
Dave says
Emily, the original:
That is one study. One study does not, by any means, constitute overall statistics. Use your common sense. 80% is a HUGE percentage. By any measure of just plain everyday common sense it is, in my opinion (and I would surmise in the opinion of any common sense person), ridiculous to claim that women find a full 8 out of 10 men below average in attractiveness.
Are we talking about ALL women – including the multitudes of fat/ugly and repulsively unattractive ones? Are you kidding!? Are those types really making this 8 out of 10 claim? Most of those women would kill for attention from ANY man – let alone adhering to this ridiculous claim.
For every study there is eventually a study that directly refutes it. I cannot name one in this instance but this claim is absolutely ludicrous when measured against degree of common sense.
Emily, the original says
Dave,
You asked Anon for a study. The one I provided is most the commonly cited. I am not a social scientist. Right off the top of my head, that was the first one I could think of. Overall, yes, I do think women are more selective, but that by no means defines ALL women.
Are we talking about ALL women — including the multitudes of fat/ugly and repulsively unattractive ones?
Who knows? I have found, on occasion, that some of the most unattractive men are the most critical of women’s looks. It’s called projection.
Yet Another Guy says
A height of 5’11” in the United States is no more average than a height of 5’7″. We do not consider a man who is 5’7″ to be of average height, so why do we consider a man who is truly 5’11” to be of average height? A height of 5’11” is the threshold to tall, as it is almost 2″ taller than average male height in the United States. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), the average male height in the United States is 5’9.2″ (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/body-measurements.htm). Most men who are truly 5’11” are like me in that they are 5’11” and a fraction (5’11.5″ in my case). There is a noticeable difference in height and body size between a medium build man who is 5’9″ and a medium build man who is 5’11”. The problem is that so many men who fall into the 5’8″ to 5’10” height range claim that they are 5’11” because they will get called on it if they claim 6’0″. I have lost count of the number of guys who told me that I have to be at least 6’1″ because they are 5’11”. I could claim 6’0″ and a woman would not be the wiser, but why would I do that? I do not feel a need to defend my height, and neither should any man when there is a lid for every pot.
Marika says
I’m tall for a woman (5′ 10″) and don’t care about height. I’ve noticed quite often, though, the guy cares, or assumes I’ll care. At least three times I can think of off-hand, a guy who was shorter than me, before our date, said things like “did you see in my profile that I’m shorter than you”, or “I notice you’re quite tall, I hope you won’t be disappointed when you see I’m not” etc. I understand what they’re doing and clearly they’ve been rejected before by woman who were taller, which is a real shame, but by bringing the height thing up, it turns what for me is a non-issue into a potential issue (and shows a lack of confidence, which as we’ve discussed previously, is unattractive). One man went out of his way to clarify that he was slightly shorter than he had listed in his profile (with a long convoluted story as to why), but neglected to mention, which was far more obvious when we met, that he was 10 years older than listed. That I cared about. The height thing, not.
At least some dating sites have a height preference filter, wouldn’t it maybe be a good idea to contact the women who’ve shown that they’re tolerant by putting a wider filter? If you’re say 5’6″, and you contact women who have a filter of 5’11” and above, you’re only going to be annoyed & frustrated if you contact them and they reject you. Most reasonable women aren’t crazily specific in terms of exact height, so if you’re 5’5″ and they’ve put 5’6″ and above, you’ll probably be okay. Just watch out for the ones who are very restrictive in their criteria, or who want men much taller than them (which shows a general intolerance & lack of self-awareness).
I’ve also had the pleasure of interacting with men who know how to turn a potential negative around to their advantage. For instance, I was recently chatting with a man who spends a large part of the year working out of the country. He said “look, if you want a man who’s home by 5pm, I’m not the man for you. But if you want an exciting man who will dedicate himself to you 100% whenever he possibly can, them I’m your man”. Loved this!
If instead of saying something like “you’ll be disappointed by my height”, you said something like “honey, if you’re looking for Michael Jordan, I’m not your guy. If you care less about inches of height and more about x quality, then let’s chat”. Women would Eat.That.Up. Seriously.
I’m not saying it’s up to men to change some women’s biases against men who are short/shorter than them, but from a woman’s perspective, these are some ways you can optimise your dating opportunities if you feel your height is limiting you. And I agree it’s a silly thing for people to care so much about (as an aside, it’s not just women, I had a friend who at under 5′ was sometimes rejected by men for being too short.)
Dave says
Emily the original,
Now we’ve gone from the outrageous 8 out of 10 thing to simply women being “more selective”. That’s a huge leap.
As far as “unattractive” men being critical of a woman’s looks – does he not have every bit as much right to be critical of her looks as she is of his height? How many “unattractive” women are critical of a man’s height? Plenty – it’s just that when it’s a woman being critical it’s supposed to be all right and go unmentioned. A lot of men I think are tired of the extremely irritating double standard.
Emily, the original says
Dave
As far as “unattractive” men being critical of a woman’s looks — does he not have every bit as much right to be critical of her looks as she is of his height? How many “unattractive” women are critical of a man’s height?
Yes, everyone has a right to their personal preferences, and, yes, some women are very picky about men’s looks, as are some men about women’s looks. As a general rule, women find a smaller number of men appealing. It’s biology. Sometimes it is about height, but not always. As has been attested here, a number of women don’t care about height.
Dave says
Marika,
Women who’ll be “tolerant”!? As if they’re doing some huge favor to a man relative to his height by being “tolerant”. How merciful of those types of women to bestow a few crumbs of understanding onto a man simply because of his height! Give me a break. If I mentioned men “tolerating” some aspect of a woman’s makeup I’d be tarred and feathered as a sexist.
And what about the WOMAN dedicating HERself to the MAN whenever SHE possibly can! Men are tired of the self-important double standard that some women (not you judging from your post) place on men and then just presume it’s OK. It’s not OK – not at all.
Marika says
Dave,
Getting angry at women who don’t care about height won’t help you in the least. Height doesn’t have any bearing on how good a partner you are, but being angry and rude will.
(I wrote a balanced post, clearly I was referring to tolerance in terms of not getting all caught up in superficial, unimportant things. You’ve missed your mark taking your anger out on me).
Dave says
Marika,
YOU are the one with obvious anger issues here. You clearly used the term tolerant in relation to men’s height when you talked about a woman’s height “filter”.
Rude? Are you kidding? If you will note I said “(not you judging from your post)” meaning that the opinion I was stating about the conduct of some women did NOT apply to you. I was attempting to REMOVE you from being one of the women who engaged in double-standard conduct.
You, however lashed out and absurdly claimed I was taking some sort of nonexistent anger out on YOU.
I respectfully suggest that you should look inwardly to your own obvious anger issues. I genuinely hope you can get some sort of help with your seeming prop