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I fall into the majority of divorced women with a degree who are looking on line, but with children. Dating with children changes the rules of the game entirely. For both men and women. As a single person without children you are open to possibilities, open to long distance relationships even, but when the kids are around then we have to change our mindset to realizing that we are Teflon until the kids are out of the house, that the Brady Bunch was just a fantasy TV sitcom, and that living a life of dating without the kids makes us live two lives, one with kids and one without. Soon enough you’re going to resent one of them, if not both, and the idea of bringing your children along for dates is not really something acceptable.
So you can talk about what your dating life as a single man was like –you wanted a woman who you could have children with, so you probably didn’t date women with children and if you did you soon found out that they needed to be thrown back. That’s how I feel, that every man I meet will never really date me for a serious relationship because I have children, and especially if he has his too, then it’s like he can understand but he also doesn’t want to pick up someone else’s slack. Perhaps you can recommend a different resource…or you can explain how your comments apply when it comes to dating with children.
Try it with your wife…pretend the kids were not yours, and you were dating her…how would that change everything? —Joy
Joy,
Thanks for your email, as it reveals both some truths and blind spots.
Truth: it’s a lot easier to date if you don’t have kids.
People without children don’t have much of a concept of what it’s like to be tethered to home for feeding, napping, school, and extracurricular activities. Your life isn’t entirely your own.
The thing is: this isn’t news to anybody.
If you are confident, self-aware, have a high emotional IQ, a low tolerance for being mistreated and understand the opposite sex, you’re going to do well in relationships.
This just reveals your blind spot — you keep on choosing men without kids. And because you keep choosing men without kids, you’ve come to the conclusion that the Brady Bunch life is a fantasy. Hate to tell you, sweetie, but the reason that the Brady Bunch is NOT a fantasy is because both Mike and Carol HAD kids.
To be fair, you almost figure this out by the end of your email: “If he has (kids) too, then it’s like he can understand but he doesn’t want to pick up someone else’s slack.”
Pick up someone else’s slack?
He has his kids to raise. You have your kids to raise. He doesn’t have to pick up your slack. He has to understand that, as a parent, you need a little slack, because you don’t control your own schedule.
The tone of your email suggests that because I am a single guy who found love with a childless woman that my advice is invalid to you. That’s not remotely true.
Everyone likes to think her situation is particularly unique. It’s not.
Once people hit their mid-40s, tons of guys become available because that’s when the married-with-kids guys who got married in their 20s are divorcing, so suddenly you can date your peers again.
Advice for women over 50 is almost identical to advice for women under 50.
Advice for women who want kids is almost identical to advice for women who don’t.
If you are confident, self-aware, have a high emotional IQ, a low tolerance for being mistreated and understand the opposite sex, you’re going to do well in relationships.
That has nothing to do with kids or age or anything. If you understand 40-year-old men, you pretty much understand 60-year-old men. Men don’t change. But circumstances do. Which brings me to something that I’ve been sitting on for a few months and wanted to share here with you. It’s an update from my friend, Lori Gottlieb, author of “Marry Him,” my favorite relationship book. Writes Lori:
I’ve been dating someone for about six months. I guess I should change my Facebook “status” to “in a relationship” at some point, so I can stop being considered a “toxic maximizer” every time some guy asks me out. You should write a column about how once people hit their mid-40s, tons of guys become available because that’s when the married-with-kids guys who got married in their 20s are divorcing, so suddenly you can date your peers again. In my late 30s, I didn’t want divorced with kids, but once I had a kid and reached my mid-40s, divorced with kids was exactly what I wanted. So he’s 47 with 14-year-old twin girls. And then, of course, in the past year, all of these opportunities came about due to the demographic shift of an influx of 40-something men with kids getting divorced and not wanting to date women in their 30s who don’t have — but want — kids. They don’t want to go back to diapers at that age. And then there’s the financial investment of starting a second family. For all those reasons (not to mention, of course, my “charm”… ahem), I’m what these divorced-with-kids 40-something guys seem to be looking for. Fodder for your blog, perhaps?
Yes, Lori, it is fodder for my blog.
And it’s also my answer to your question, Joy.
Choose men with kids who “get” what you’re going through and you’ll be that much closer to developing a Brady Bunch family of your own.
Amy says
I think what Joy meant by “pick up someone else’s slack” , is that some men fear they will be called on to chip in financially to help a woman raise her kids. They might worry that her ex is a deadbeat Dad or whatever. They might be challenged enough being financially responsible for their own kids, if they have any. Even if these fears are unfounded, it could be enough for some guys to avoid serious relationships with women who have kids.
marymary says
It’s about widening the net and not seeing yourself as a second class citizen in the dating world.
I know a few mothers who did marry men without kids, so it can happen but don’t restrict yourself to just those men. And the women were very unapologetic (as they should be) about having children. Don’t drop your standards or make excuses for poor treatment cos you have children. By standards I don’t mean superficial things like status and looks, but his character and ability to sustain a loving relationship. With you and your children.
Fawn says
I recently married a man (5 months ago) with two kids. I have three kids of my own although two are grown and out of the house. It’s a juggling act for sure but we make it work. When we met, he was glad that I had kids and I was glad that he had kids because we both understood that we have no control over our schedules at times and it made us both that much more understanding. The other thing that my husband found attractive about dating me was that I had no desire to have more kids. We knew that “having kids together” was never going to be an issue. That made us both happy. It’s working beautifully.
Liz says
Wow!
I’m so happy for you. I’m about to have my 3 child (at 30) and recently separated so not divorced but pretty much the same!! Great to see some faith in still finding someone to spend your life with!! All the best!
Rose says
“Choose men with kids who “get” what you’re going through and you’ll be that much closer to developing a Brady Bunch family of your own.”
I agree, or a single man who wants to be a family.
You come as a package.
If what you want is to be in a committed relationship, that’s the deal he is taking on.
Amy
“I think what Joy meant by “pick up someone else’s slack” , is that some men fear they will be called on to chip in financially to help a woman raise her kids.”
I got that impression that was what Amy mean’t to. What do you think Evan.
Of course he will be expected to do that if they decide to get married., it comes with the territory of being a step dad. They come as a package. Don’t know how it works in the uk, but that is how it works here in uk. My step dad willingly took on that role.
If you take on a woman with kids and are living with them of, you are taking on the role of the commitment to help raise them together as a family and part of that is financially raising them together. If a man doesn’t want to do that is doesn’t want to. Pick one who does.
Jackie H. says
I agree…hmm…interesting about options opening up for women in their ’40s as men who married in their ’20s will be divorcing by then…may have to share that with a friend…lol…
A says
31 yo, single mom here. Evan, I think your viewpoint is spot on. Dating IS harder as a single parent. Not only are there scheduling conflicts but a lot of men who are older and divorced with kid(s) tend to be more cautious about entering relationships than they were before going through that experience. I have found that this requires I be careful to let the man lead, mirror, etc. so that I’m not coming across as pushing for anything. This definitely tends to bring out the best in a man- so it’s a good thing. I also think single dad’s move a little slower in establishing a relationship- which can be frustrating, but I think ultimately it helps to ensure the relationship is a sound one, if it does develop.
It’s been a bumpy road dating as a single mom, but I almost exclusively date other single parents and have had no dearth of men to date. After 2 years of consistently online dating, I’ve met a really good man and father. We are taking it slow, and I’m glad for that.
My advice to other single mom’s dating is to be cool, take it slow, don’t push, and a man who has been put through the ringer of divorce and single-parenthood will really really appreciate it.
Al says
you’re pretty much in the perfect demographic for the men in their 40’s who are newly divorced. They all want women in their 30s. If you aren’t interested in having more children you are exactly what they want. Once you are a single mother in your 40’s that window closes fast.
Kim says
Evan, I think you and I had this conversation once when we had a phone consultation, and I told you that felt my kids were a liability in dating. Your advice was: some will, some won’t, but you can’t generalize and say NO men over 45 who have raised kids of their own will want to get involved with a over 50 year old woman with 2 kids still at home. I have found this to be true, and not all guys are squeamish about dating me, as a single mom, and those that are just aren’t worth my time. What I have found is that men who don’t have a problem with my kids are understanding and accepting and agree that the kids MUST come first, and I now put it right on my dating profile that I have kids, this isn’t going to change, and if it might be a problem to look elsewhere. That weeds out a lot of people who might not be so wild about having to compete with a someone’s kids. Another thing that I have observed is that if he has kids and you have kids, it’s best to work out a schedule so that his parenting time and your own coincides, so that when you have the time to be together, it is understood that you will not have the kids that weekend. This can be a challenge, but not so hard if both parties are willing to work on it. I think that if there is genuine respect and feeling there, the kids won’t be an issue at all, and eventually, if you decide to make it to the more committed stage, they will add to the relationship in ways that you just cannot predict. Those who aren’t up to the challenge are missing out on something pretty cool, IMO.
Goldie says
Want to add that, yes, the part about men in their mid-to-late 40s coming back on the market in large numbers is absolutely correct, as is the fact that most of them prefer someone with kids to someone with no kids. This is for two reasons, actually: one, they want someone that is understanding about their own commitments as fathers, and two, they don’t want any more kids. At least, this is what they’ve told me.
John says
As a mid 40s guy without kids, here are some of my thoughts. I have no problem dating a woman with kids as long as she follows some basic common courtesies:
1. Let me know her schedule as to which days/nights she is available to be together. I have no problem seeing her on a Tuesday and Friday if she cant get a babysitter for Saturday. But let me know upfront so I can plan my own week. Don’t leave me hanging all the time as to when I will see her. Make plans on the week in advance. I will accommodate. I know things arise last minute with kids but you show know a basic setup for the week.
2. If a woman can see me every other weekend that’s fine. But don’t give me a hard time if I happen to have plans with my friends on one of the Saturdays she is available.
3. When she is with me, shed Mom mode and be woman mode. Ditch the sweatpants and big boring underwear and wear nice jeans and something sexy.
4. Don’t expect me to pay for everything just because “you are a single mom” and I don’t have any kids therefore I probably have more disposable income. While probably true, don’t make her choice to have kids be a free pass for freebies all the time.
If a girl can follow those beliefs then it shows she is trying to work with the situation and I have no problem getting into a relationship with her whatsoever.
Rose says
If as a woman with kids my only free time for dating was tues and fri, I would keep those open for whichever man took the lead and asked and made plans first. As I prefer active energy from a man rather than passive which feels much more attractive to me. I wouldn’t be available every week just for one person who just wanted to casually date me. It feels best to me if the man moves it forward and I’d pick the one who was making the most effort, actively took the lead asking me what day he could take me out next week first and wanted to treat me the way I wanted to be treated. That way I get the best man for me who wants to and is actively able to lead a relationship.
I want to be romanced on a date not paying for men and, or myself by going dutch that would feel like friendship/mates, what I do with my girlfriends to me not romance. So would not go on a date like that,, as it wouldn’t real feel like a date, more like we had both decided we just wanted to be buddies and hang out like two buddies together. Not got much time or room in my life for single male buddies in my life personally though.
Lynn says
I disagree with Rose. Most men after 50 are not interested in picking up the tab every time. As a single successful woman in her 50’s, I don’t “expect” anything. A “real” date is not defined by who opens the wallet.
John says
Rose @10,
So you want the guy to plan dates for Tuesdays and Fridays, pay for all of them and otherwise “treat you like you want to be treated”. What exactly are you bringing to the table, cupcake?
mcurious says
sorry, but I feel like this entitled attitude is so common among st single parents in the dating world. isn’t Evan’s advice to offer to split the bill with every intent to do so but to be gracious if the man pays, not expecting it?
Al says
Please do not think all single moms are so selfish. I am as disgusted by this sense of entitlement as you are. I always offer to go Dutch, which some men actually seem to find offensive. If the man feels strongly that he wants to pay I back off and don’t make a big deal out of it. I’m always GRATEFUL when someone picks up the check, but I certainly don’t expect or demand it.
Suzanne says
John#9
Sounds reasonable to me.
Chance says
My advice to women with children who are dating would be to make it clear that you are not looking for someone to finance your children’s upbringing, but that you are simply looking for a partner instead. Accepting another person’s children as his/her own is something that comes with time and it should happen naturally. It isn’t something you can force. Men can get very cautious with women that want them to quickly accept their children as their own because they fear that these women see them as nothing more than a financial resource. Many men don’t like to be financially objectified, just like many women do not like to be sexually objectified.
Of course, this advice doesn’t apply if that IS something you’re looking for. However, if you’re a smart, strong, and successful woman, I can’t imagine that would be the case.
Mimigirl says
Funnily enough, as a 41 year old woman with a 13 and a 9 year old I found those dads in their forties disappeared in droves when they found out how old my kids were. It literally became a game to see how long we could correspond before they asked how old my kids were and then to see how quickly they disappeared. It made me laugh, albeit in a wry way. It seemed many of these men had kids in their early 20’s and by the time they hit the dating scene their kids were grown and gone. Can’t say that I blame them for not wanting to start over again. After much patience I have found a wonderful man my age who’s kids are a little younger than mine. Perfect in so many ways. After 7 months we were starting to hang out more as a blended group and talk more frequently about adventures that involve all of us being together. This whole time I have let him lead and have mirrored his actions at every turn. So far, so good. 🙂
Rose says
My awesomeness wonderful presence and essence John me. 🙂
And my yummy cupecakeness, which everyone wants a peice of 😀
Kim says
John #9
I take issue with a couple of things you said, and I have to say that your attitude will not cut it for a lot of single moms:
1st: If you make plans for a Saturday night with your buddies, knowing that it is one of the nights I have free, and you do it frequently, and don’t follow it up with a Sunday date, or offer to go out on Friday, I would be inclined to say adios, because it conveys a lack of respect for my situation.I can be totally accommodating and understanding for a once in a while thing as long as the guy makes an effort to make it up to me.
2nd: I agree that the woman should make an effort to shed the mom mode and dress nice for dates. As a single mom, I don’t wear “sweatpants and big boring underwear” and I don’t know why any single mom would either. If that’s the single mom experience you have had, then you are not looking in the right place, lol.
3rd: In the beginning of dating I do expect the guy to pay mostly for dates, but I am OK with chipping in, i.e., leaving a tip, buying coffee on a Sunday morning, surprising my guy with concert tickets, I would think that anyone in the dating game would too.
4th: I work, have my own income, and feel that in dating, it should be a mutual exchange of resources to really have a great time. However, at one point, when I was in grad school and a single mom, my bf at the time offered to pay for more of the share of dates, and I tried as much as possible to treat in kind, but I just didn’t have the income. He generously paid for presents for my kids, and never held it against me. I think it is up to the guy, but if you go in with that attitude knowing the situation, then perhaps that is not going to be a good match for you, no matter how hot she is.
Frimmel says
Chance in #13– “Men can get very cautious with women that want them to quickly accept their children as their own because they fear that these women see them as nothing more than a financial resource. Many men don’t like to be financially objectified, just like many women do not like to be sexually objectified. ”
Spot on there.
So is John in #11. What are you bringing to the table, Rose? That’s a deal-breaker attitude from any woman but especially from a single mother. If I’m expected to pay the way and make the plans and out compete other men for the best plans and generally tolerate that sort of entitled attitude, I might as well pursue childless women with more flexible schedules.
Julia says
And Frimmel hits the head on the nail for John’s post. He feels like single mothers somehow have to pay their way as compared to women without children. I don’t have children but have dated single dads. I would expect any man I am dating to treat me as well I should be treated regardless of who has kids. If Frimmel and John have that attitude, maybe they should stick to women without kids. Or understand that women want to be treated well by men they are dating period.
loveability says
John,
I suspect Rose is bringing a delicious rose cupcake to the table.
Made of all those enticing feminine ingredients…..really enjoying herself, being receptive to her mans efforts to please her etc
I have no concerns for the men in her life, being with a feminine woman who respects and allow her man to lead……..they know how lucky they are.
I have more concern for the rose cupcake on the table with all those devouring eyes on her.
John says
Kim @16
“.I can be totally accommodating and understanding for a once in a while thing as long as the guy makes an effort to make it up to me.”
Let me get this straight. I may already have plans with my friends on an occasional Saturday and on those times that I do, I have to make it up to you somehow? What are you doing to make up to me when you cant see me 2 Saturdays every month? Its that kind of attitude that makes you undateable to a single guy without kids.
For example, I have plans in June to go away with my guy friends for a weekend. In July I am going to an out of town wedding. Those plans are set. Lets say I meet you or another single Mom in May. Lets say those weekends coincide with your available weekend. You mean to say that I will need to somehow make it up to you as if I did something wrong? Meanwhile, all the other days of the week and other Saturdays that you couldn’t make it is perfectly fine and you don’t have to make anything up to me? That’s serious entitlement and that’s exactly the point of my posting.
Rose says
Frimmel 17
“Chance in #13— “Men can get very cautious with women that want them to quickly accept their children as their own because they fear that these women see them as nothing more than a financial resource. Many men don’t like to be financially objectified, just like many women do not like to be sexually objectified. ”
I have not ever met a woman who wants men who they are just dating and getting to know to accept their child en of their own. It’s a date not an instant relationship, I don’t take my children out to meet random strangers on dates. And don’t know any women who do. What I would want not expect is for them to realise is I have children so if they want to move forward to relationship from dating they come as a package. Isn’t that what dating is for to see if you are both compatible and both want to move forward and be in a relationship with each other?
I don’t expect any man to pay for anything they don’t lead or offer. However I do not expect to go dutch on a date. That does not feel like a romantic date that feels like two friends to me. And I don’t want to make the plans and be the leader, that feels masculine to me and I want to be the girl.
Personally was always more than happy to go on free dates in the getting to know each other stage if money is an issue. Bike rides, walks, art galleries etc.
Up to the man or men to decide where he they wants to offer to take me on dates in the getting to know each other stage If he offers a walk to get to know each other I am happy to walk. If he offers to take me for coffee, then I go for coffee. If he offers dinner, I go for dinner. Simple really, he leads I follow. If he ain’t leading ain’t got anything to follow.I don’t want to lead in romance,or be a buddy or buddy with benefits. So I do not put myself in those situations. Dating for me is for getting to know each other, fun seeing if you have an inner core and value match. romancing, seeing if the ingredients are their to fall in love, and desire from each other to move forward. If I want romance, it doesn’t feel good to me to behave like his buddy and hang out like two buddies or buddy with benifits and hook up for physical only instant gratification sex with someone I am just dating and don’t even really know who the rel them on the inside is yet. And if they want to and are capable of leading a realtionship. If I date it is to find that out and then I choose the best leader for me who has proven he is able and wants the same. Which would be love romance and marriage. So until that man came along I would just be dating and following his lead.
Goldie says
A few more comments from the trenches…
@ John #9: WTH is big boring underwear and why would a single mom have to wear it? I’ve only been on my own for 3 years and must’ve missed that memo.
@ John #11: if one person (man or woman) has to ask another what they’re bringing to the table, maybe those two shouldn’t be dating. When I decide to date someone, it’s because I like their company and want to spend more time together, not because there’s an even exchange of goods going on. I can break even just as well by staying home and not spending any time or money, if that’s what I’m after.
@ Chance #13, you make it sound like our kids can’t wait to move in with the guy we’re dating and start calling him Dad. Not even close. It took my younger son over a year to warm up to my bf, to the point where the two of them would actually talk. Before that, on a rare occasion they met, my son would just say hi and disappear into his room. I think you worry too much about things that aren’t terribly likely to happen.
@ Mimi #14, yes I did find that most guys I’ve talked to were looking for a woman that has kids in the same age group as theirs. In one case, a man I was seeing was actually kind of disappointed because my kids were too old to play with his. From what I understand, many men in their 40s have children that are same age as yours, so there’s hope. Unfortunately this does limit our choices, but what can we do. Personally I kind of see where they’re coming from. I have kids in high school and college myself, and would probably find it too much of a hassle if I had to date a guy whose life still revolves around playdates, little league games and so on. Not to mention he’d probably be scared and confused any time I’d tell him what my teenagers have been up to — things that teenagers say and do can be frightening to a parent who hasn’t been there yet! But if we were a really good match otherwise, I’m sure we would’ve found a way for things to work even then.
@ Kim #16, I’m in total agreement with you on the financial side of things. I used to pay half (or more) of all family expenses when I was married, and would love to pay half of everything now, but currently I’m just not there financially yet. My both children will have to be out of college before I can even think about paying half of all dating-related expenses. I do as much as I can, and really appreciate it that my bf understands. One of the men I dated before him was in an even worse position financially than I was (we both had decent incomes, but insanely high expenses — he was a single dad of 3 and paid alimony on top of that), so we just really scaled down on things we did together. We once had a doggy date at a dogpark, followed by a snack at my house (for both humans and dogs), because none of us had the cash to do anything else that weekend, etc. So to John, if you’re worried about paying more than your single-mom date, here’s another solution — do things on your dates that don’t cost anybody anything, problem solved.
John says
Julia @18
Frimmel hits the head on the nail for John’s post. He feels like single mothers somehow have to pay their way as compared to women without children.
Julia, stop making assumptions. Women without kids should contribute to dating expenses the same way women with kids should. There aren’t different standards based on whether the woman is a parent or not. I agree the guy should pick up the first few. After that when you start to spend more time together, the girl should start reciprocating regardless if they are parents or not. How the heck you felt that my comment implied 2 different standards is beyond me. The topic is dating a girl who has kids. Not comparing whether a guy should treat each one differently.
You may not realize this, because you aren’t dating single Moms, but there are many single Moms who say that they shouldn’t have to pay because they are single Moms. That’s their free pass in their mind. Those are the ones I avoid. Since this is a blog to understand how men think and the topic is how can a woman find love when she has kids, I gave my opinion. And if a guy feels that the girl will never pick up a check and she uses the excuse she is a single Mom, then she is undercutting her chances.
JB says
I’m just going to throw this out there as a basic fact. Whether or not we men (like myself, John and any single guy 35-60) like it or not if you’re searching online and or dating single women in that bracket the percentage of them that are “single moms” probably comes in at well over 85%. So unless you want to disqualify that many women and have a lot of other options you have to be at least open to giving them a chance like I’ve always done.
There’s many variables in the “single mom” world…….kids ages, how many, and the most important “total nights available to date per month” so all “single moms” are NOT equal.
To answer the question “are the kids keeping any single mom from finding love?” All I would say is when I see women online that are 42, divorced, and have 4 kids under the age of 18 she’s going have a harder time finding love than a single mom of one 12 yr. old for the most part just because she has less time to put into searching and dating. There’s only so much time & energy in a week!
I know online I get disqualified everyday by single moms because I DON’T have kids although they never tell me that.
Rose says
“For example, I have plans in June to go away with my guy friends for a weekend. In July I am going to an out of town wedding. Those plans are set. Lets say I meet you or another single Mom in May. Lets say those weekends coincide with your available weekend. You mean to say that I will need to somehow make it up to you as if I did something wrong? Meanwhile, all the other days of the week and other Saturdays that you couldn’t make it is perfectly fine and you don’t have to make anything up to me? That’s serious entitlement and that’s exactly the point of my posting.”
What I do not get is If someone isjust at the casual dating stage and getting to know each other and and not in a real realtionship yet. Why would anyone be leaving any days open exclusively for someone who just wanted to casually date them on the off chance that they might ask them out on a date that day, and was not wanting or offering to move from dating to the next stage? Waiting around for someone who just wanted to casually date you, closing options off to others who did want what you want. And why would anyone be bothered by someone who was casually dating going away for a weekend with his mates or a wedding?
The only scenario I can think off where a woman would be bothered by this is if she had decided to sleep with a man who was was only casually dating so believing it was more than that, that they were actually in a real moving forward relationship.
If all he is offering is casual dating, that is what you are accepting. I feel happy to go on casual dates to see if we are compatible. You want to date me to do this then either pay or take me somewhere free if money is an issue.
So it feels best to me to listen to what he is offering before I accept or not.
Is he offering me a casual date based on romance where we are getting to know each other? I am happy to accept this.
Is he offering me to hang out together going dutch so is really wanting friendship? No thanks. I am not interested.
Is he offering me a one night stand? No thanks I am not interested.
Is he offering me to meet up for casual sex? No thanks I am not interested.
Is he offering me to hang out together casually like buddies with the benefits for him of also getting casual sex? No thanks I am not interested.
The question is What is he wanting and offering and is it compatible to what I want. If it is we move forward if it isn’t we don’t simple.
Joe says
@ Kim: Sure, scheduling flexibility is important. But why should the flexibility go only one way? And financial generosity is not something that can be required. If it is, then it is not generosity.
@ Julia: Um, people want to be treated well by people on dates.
Frimmel says
No, I think all women have to pay their way. I’m especially not interested in single mothers that don’t feel they have to contribute to the costs of our activities together. I’m also in total agreement with John in #20. I do not find the ‘entitlement princess mentality’ attractive.
Karmic Equation says
@Rose
It sounds to me as if you’re expecting the guy to act and behave like a BF on the first date. That’s an unrealistic expectation.
Until the guy is your boyfriend, by definition you ARE dating “casually.” Sex or no sex.
No matter how awesome your cupcakeness, after the first date, you should offer to pay. Anything less and you are guilty of treating the guy like a “financial object”.
If you can’t afford to pay for your half, then you should let the guy know when he’s arranging for the date and OFFER AN ALTERNATIVE (walk in the park, go to a museum, etc). Then he can either say “Ok, no problem I’ll pay.” or he can take you up on your suggestion.
John says
Goldie @22
@ John #9: WTH is big boring underwear and why would a single mom have to wear it? I’ve only been on my own for 3 years and must’ve missed that memo
You misread. The single Moms SHOULD NOT be wearing the boring stuff. You are commenting as if I said they should. I dated a single Mom and after a few dates when we were sleeping together, I asked her if she would wear some sexy underwear instead of the big boring ones (don’t play dumb you know exactly what those are Goldie). Her reply to me was “Moms don’t wear thongs”. Major turn off to me.
Goldie says
@ John #29, I didn’t misread. I read it from your comment that you assume that women who have children all wear big boring underwear (whatever that is), unless you’re around to tell them not to. I will admit, that was a strange reply from your date — Moms wear whatever they like, including thongs — then again I don’t know what I’d say to my date if he criticized my lingerie after a few dates, and told me to spend my money on another kind that he likes better. I assume you were wearing sexy underwear yourself on those dates.
Frimmel says
John in #23: “You may not realize this, because you aren’t dating single Moms, but there are many single Moms who say that they shouldn’t have to pay because they are single Moms. That’s their free pass in their mind. Those are the ones I avoid. Since this is a blog to understand how men think and the topic is how can a woman find love when she has kids, I gave my opinion. And if a guy feels that the girl will never pick up a check and she uses the excuse she is a single Mom, then she is undercutting her chances.”
Again, I’m in total agreement in a been there had that conversation as well way.
And there is lots of underwear between ‘big and boring’ and thongs. Even a single mom should have a pair or two of lacy maybe you’ll get lucky undies.
With the single mothers I’ve dated you had to go pretty far down the list of ways they put me off before you got to the having kids part as the last straw. Be careful of using kids as an excuse not to do the other things you need to do to attract men.
JustMe says
I actually agreed with John’s post (#9).
Frimmel (#27). As a single mom, it is not that i don’t want to contribute, it is just that I might have to do less expensive things. I am completely comfortable doing things that don’t cost (watching movies, museums, etc) regardless of who is paying. Also, I don’t mind picking up the tab when it is something more expensive. I like it to be more equal. My point is it may not be that the single moms are trying to get out of paying but explaining they might not be able to afford to treat to the nice things frequently.
As far as the big boring underwear I can only say one thing: Victoria Secret just had a great sale on panties; I stocked up!
Morris says
I think children are just another variable in making a decision about the person you end up with. Does it reduce your dating pool? Probably. Although there may be people out there that want a person with children, there are probably more that don’t. But that’s true for a lot of things. Age, looks, smarts etc. If you’re average looking does it reduce your dating pool? Probably. Some like the plain look but more like good looks etc.
But once you start thinking you deserve special treatment because of your situation things might not turn out so well. I’m guessing we all want to be with a decent person. Well my experience is a decent person has options. So if you need more flexibility. Or you want the other person to take on a bit more financially(on dates) because you have children. I get it. But wouldn’t you need to overcompensate in other areas? I’m not saying you have to actually DO something. But you should be more successful/prettier/funnier/better cook/better listener… something better than the other people he/she may be dating right? Otherwise why would they pick you over someone that brings just as much to the table without children?
lisa says
Morris#33.. yes absolutely you would be willing to spend more and not think about being “objectified financially” for the girl that got your attention more than others. Case in point why Rose and other ladies know that a man thinking that her cupcakes are worth it will not find it necessary to negotiate paying the bill on a 3rd date. a man who is interested in finding more than casual will act at the very least like a gentleman from the beginning..and will want to protect and provide the best way he can for the “object” of real affection. We also know it doesn’t take men 20 dates to figure out if you are interested in more than casual dating. That’s not entitlement ..that makes ladies who discriminate act this way ..it’s just common sense or experience. I get that in the process of finding what men want they get sick of paying ..but women pay too..and usually with broken hearts… feminism got us to a place where for some reason we should provide for our children all while staying feminine and doing laundry in a thong ..and I guess feeling lucky according to “john” that we found a man to entertain us with his company. Just cause I am a single mother( successful and in a thong as we speak) doesn’t mean I want just any man. If i wanted to settle i would still be married. I still want a man I admire look up to in more ways than one and who if necessary will protect and provide for me and my children..otherwise I can have a revolving door of “johns” who bring percisely what to my life that I can’t find elsewhere? And if you are not wanting to at least pay for dinner..then its clear you are not that into me. If you think that we should accept less than what we deserve from you because we have children..who is really acting entitled? My children have nothing to do with how any man should want to treat me if he is interested in me…if a man is interested in every way.. paying for dinner will be a pleasure..learning to make my children a part of a life together will be an adventure. It just takes chemistry between people ..perhaps some faith that single with kids or without doesnt mean that every woman is materialistic and or wanting a man slave or that every man only wants casual will make us all agree at some point. People want to find someone to share their life with…wish so many of us didn’t become cynical bitter and guarded with life’s disappointments ..:) but inevitable I suppose.
Kim says
John #20
I’m with you on the plans set in stone well in advance, before weekend schedules were discussed,, or even when they were. That is totally OK, and doesn’t require a “make-up” date. However, if we were dating and you knew that this Saturday was my week to not have my kids, but you went ahead and made plans with your buddies anyway, and said “I had to make this commitment to my friends because of the game, the show, the whatever,” and didn’t also say, “but hey, I’ve got Friday night free, wanna see a movie?” or “let’s go have brunch on Sunday and take a walk in the park,” then that would be a cause for a red flag for me because it says I’d rather hang with my peeps this weekend than be with you. And it means that if a single mom, as I do, has her kids every other weekend, then it will be 2 more weeks before there will be a chance for another date. I don’t know about you, but if I only had 1 date every 4 weeks with a guy, I’d say he just wasn’t that into me, and would get busy finding someone who was. Now is that the kind of message you intend to send?
Frimmel says
re#32 Justme: ” As a single mom, it is not that i don’t want to contribute, it is just that I might have to do less expensive things. ”
And that is perfectly acceptable and preferred from mothers and non-mothers. My objection is to the attitude John outlined in #23.
Karmic Equation says
Kim# 34 wrote
“I don’t know about you, but if I only had 1 date every 4 weeks with a guy,…”
Dating only two nights a month seems difficult to sustain a relationship, even a casual one, and I would imaging that most moms don’t really want to date casually. Is that typical of single parents? I’m just curious.
Rose says
karmis
“@Rose
It sounds to me as if you’re expecting the guy to act and behave like a BF on the first date. That’s an unrealistic expectation.”
I expect nothing those are your projections.
If someone tales the leads and asks me for a romantic date because they want to take me out and get to know me better and I want to go and get to know them better I go. If they do not ask or I do not want to go, simple I do not go, no expectation.
“Until the guy is your boyfriend, by definition you ARE dating “casually.” Sex or no sex.”
Agreed. Or until we are engaged married whatever and have had the talk to see if what we want is compatible.
“No matter how awesome your cupcakeness, after the first date, you should offer to pay. Anything less and you are guilty of treating the guy like a “financial object”.|
That is arguing with my reality and again your projections. I don’t go on dates just because of how much someone wants to spend on me. I am happy to do free things on dates.Starting to feel bored repeating that now and don’t like feeling bored so is the last time I will repeat that.
“If you can’t afford to pay for your half, then you should let the guy know when he’s arranging for the date and OFFER AN ALTERNATIVE (walk in the park, go to a museum, etc). Then he can either say “Ok, no problem I’ll pay.” or he can take you up on your suggestion.”
If and when this that gets brought up I do. He leads I follow. Simple.
JustMe says
Karmic Equation: #36
Is that typical of single parents? I’m just curious.
It really depends. My kids are older; so I can pretty much date whenever I want but even with them older, I still like family time. I will go out on Friday or Saturday nights and I’m open to going out on a weeknight, but I would not go out every night. However, if in a relationship, I think the evenings would blend more in that we don’t go out but he comes over for dinner and stays for awhile.
I think those with younger kids have a lot less free time. And, for single moms, they are often at the mercy of the dads.
Goldie says
I’ll answer Karmic’s question too. I could go out anytime, including overnight. But I could only bring people home when my ex had the kids. He takes them Sat afternoon every other week and brings them back Sun afternoon. This complicated things a bit after I met my bf, because he lives pretty far away. Sometimes we’d want to go to a late concert or party in my area, and couldn’t, because he’d then have to drive back home. Recently my kids finally got to the point where they’re comfortable with him crashing at my place after a late-night event. Other than that, my dating schedule has been pretty flexible. Things are probably a lot more complicated for people with younger kids that cannot be left home alone unsupervised.
I will actually probably have to review my dating schedule after the kids move out, because then it’ll just be myself and my dog, so I won’t be able to go out or stay at bf’s place overnight as much as I do right now. Currently my kids take care of the dog when I’m gone.
Chance says
@Rose and Goldie
I was giving honest advice from a male perspective. I made no blanket generalizations about what women do/don’t do and said nothing to what the children may feel about the matter.
Christine says
Karmic Equation #36:
It is a challenge dating, and being in my upper 40’s (and since guys typically age down when looking), I find alot of men reaching out me are in their 50’s and empty nesters… who have more disposable time and higher expectations of availability. I will not go out on a date and leave my kids at home when I have custody. Thus, I generally seek out men who still have kids at home since they “get it” and are more understanding of the hecticness of single parenting.
I also generally offer to pay my way (but usually get turned down), and just told to pitch in for the tip. I do not ever want to come across as “needing to be taken care of”. I have a decent job, bought my own house, just looking for monogamous companionship at this stage and see where it leads.
I have my children (13 & 15) every other weekend and two fixed weekdays a month. When you add up the job, the commute, endless school sports/activities…it is a very strained and tight schedule, as is for any single parent. I do try to date on one of my free weeknights (I need the other weekday night off to decompress from a chaotic schedule.) I always try to plan free weekends in advance as much as possible.
What throws a wrench into it as a single parent is meeting someone whose custody arrangement the same/similar to mine. I have a 50% chance of a potential date having opposing weekends free, that has happened to me before, and only doing weeknight dating kind of stinks…
PS… This hot mama does own & wear thongs! And skirts! And bikini’s at the pool and beach… Had to throw that in 🙂
Sparkling Emerald says
John 29
You said . . .
Goldie @22
@ John #9: WTH is big boring underwear and why would a single mom have to wear it? I’ve only been on my own for 3 years and must’ve missed that memo
You misread. The single Moms SHOULD NOT be wearing the boring stuff. You are commenting as if I said they should. I dated a single Mom and after a few dates when we were sleeping together, I asked her if she would wear some sexy underwear instead of the big boring ones (don’t play dumb you know exactly what those are Goldie). Her reply to me was “Moms don’t wear thongs”. Major turn off to me.
———————————————————
So you dated one single mom in granny panties, and you assume all single moms wear them ? Perhaps she wasn’t planning on sleeping with you so soon (you said a few dates) but got carried away by your charms, and wasn’t dressed for sex, at least lingerie-wise.
Technically, I’m a single mom, but of a college kid who lives away, so it’s a moot point. And for the first month or two of dating, granny-panties or teeny-weeny-bikini’s, will also be a moot point, because until he’s my boyfriend, he’ll never know.
Also, instead of criticizing her “big boring panties”, how about just telling her how fun it would be if she wrapped her cute little caboose in something lacy (or whatever) from Victoria’s Secret ? You could show her what you like in a catalogue, even a Target sale flyer has some cute lingerie you could show and tell her in a fun flirty way.
Much of the focus of this blog (& EMK’s advise) is advising women to NOT make men wrong, but find a nice way to tell him what you would like. Since you are a man who seems to enjoy this blog, perhaps you could consider that women really don’t like being told they are wrong either. There are lost of fun, flirty, playful ways to let a woman know what you like, without making her feel like a frump in big boring panties.
Anita says
When I was dating I went out with some divorced guys with kids. I don’t have kids and have always been ambivalent about having my own (still am). The kids themselves weren’t a dealbreaker for me at all, but have to say that the divorced dads often couldn’t manage the ongoing dramas with their exes. More than once I found myself and the kids pulled into some nasty shenanigans between the two of them. I will always leave a situation like that. Also, if a divorced guy revealed that he was a deadbeat dad (not seeing his kids too often, not paying for them, etc.) I questioned his character. Conversely, if a guy could only talk about his kids and/or his ex, I would imagine that I would only ever be an outsider–someone to help the guy get through life after his “real” relationship ended. So it’s tough and complicated, and most likely each situation is different. I’ve seen all sorts of situations work out. Good people find good people.
GreatGal says
As a Single Mom who is looking for a relationship, dating is fairly difficult.
Time: The Ex wants only 2 nights a month with our kids (11 & 12) so the structure itself is pretty difficult to sustain a relationship, let alone the dating stage when I am meeting different potential partners. Besides which with my job and continuing education, I am committed several evenings a month anyway.
Finance: I do not need a man to finance my kids. But this is not exactly a conversation for the first few dates where we are only just getting to know each other. Dating is not a business meeting. I don’t ask my date what his finances are and he doesn’t ask me. But it seems from reading on comments here from guys and gals, if someone is dating a single mom, one of the assumptions is that she is looking for someone to aid her financially. How to address this in such a way that it’s understood but not take all the romance out of the date?
Once I find that the man I am seeing is compatible with me, i.e., we enjoy spending time together, his actions shows genuine interest, similar values, then I would consider him to be a serious contender for my continued time and affections.
Paying for dates: As a girl, not just a single mom, if a gentleman offers to pay for the first couple of dates (which I offer to split anyway), it shows me he considers us on a ‘date’ as opposed to ‘just a friend’ hangout. I will then offer suggestions of dating options that costs nothing or next to nothing. Or suggest to treat him to an event of my own choosing if I wish to continue to see him.
Kids: I am finding that when I meet guys in real life, when I casually mention that I have kids, I don’t get a callback. On my online dating profile, it states very clearly that I am divorced with kids so the people that contact me know that already. That’s why for the past year, I have been meeting people who are aware of my situation. So I find that online dating gets me more ‘dates’ than in real life. These are never-married guys and divorced dads. Unfortunately where I live, the divorced dads don’t spend a whole lot of time with their kids and after a few dates, it invariably comes out that they are not looking to jump into another family situation – especially one that’s not their own. For those dads, a single girl who is not looking to have kids would be better suited to them. The never-married guys I’ve met are a bit more open to starting a family but not necessary inherit my ‘family’ so I find that I am put into a category of not being in a ‘serious relationship’ material for these guys. And since I am not looking for booty-calls or shallow relationships, these fizzle out pretty quickly.
This is in addition to all the behavior that other single women face: men disappearing, not receiving follow-ups after dates; indifferent attitudes; incompatible values; not enough simple chemistry; differences in personality and temperament etc.
After 15 months of online meets and greets and dating, I have yet to meet a man who is serious about me and my kids as a package. As an eternal optimist, I know that I will find someone but this journey is a learning process and everybody is unique. It takes constantly having myself grounded in reality to see what my dates’ intentions lie, who they are and to check my feelings about them (do they make me feel good, secure, safe or do I feel they are not to be trusted); it takes persistence and a positive attitude to keep going (telling myself there is someone for everyone, to keep meeting people and not to give up).
Scaramouche says
@Morris 33
Thumbs up!! Very well put. Doesn’t seem like it’s a problem here…every single mom who has commented seems thoughtful, well intentioned and reasonable but I know some who have that “entitled” quality. While John’s tone and general phrasing often rub me the wrong way (MUAH John :D), I can’t fault his expectations from #9 at a high level:
Respect for his time and wallet from the WOMAN (not mother) that he’s dating.
In other words, he has roughly the same expectations from a single mom as he would from a woman without offspring and in return he will offer more flexibility in recognition of the fact that she has to work around her children’s schedules. I imagine this would be the same for any single man without children of his own unless of course, as Morris said, the single mom in question offers something “more” so that the total package is irresistible. In that context, Evan’s advice makes a lot of sense: look for a man who also has children and “gets it” in a way that the childless cannot.
Rose says
How funny re sweat pants. I wear clothes for the occasion so if meeting for a date at the gym, or walking, may wear sweat pants and if anything get more attention on the occasions if I am dressed down and have made little or no effort, feeling a bit of mess, or bedraggled. The only thing I am generally told is I am just too sexy, whatever that means.
Big Bridget Jones panties , silky thongs, boy boxers, cotton or silky panties, see through ones whatever. Got them all.It is the woman inside I believe that makes them sexy or hot.
Goldie says
@ Anita #43: “Also, if a divorced guy revealed that he was a deadbeat dad (not seeing his kids too often, not paying for them, etc.) I questioned his character.”
Thank you! I’ve been the lone voice in the desert saying this for three years on this blog, that I’d rather date a guy who invests time and money into his kids, than one who doesn’t. IMO, if he can’t be bothered to care about his closest blood relatives, i.e. his children, he will sure enough not care about me if we’re ever in a relationship. The ex of course is a different story.
Also, to single moms on here, stores like Marshalls and TJ Maxx have very nice-looking thongs and lacy panties on sale all the time for just a couple bucks a pair. Much cheaper than VS, for sure. That’s where I get mine.
JustMe says
Anita (#43) and Goldie (#47).
I also quit seeing a guy if he shows he doesn’t care for his own kids. That is a big indication of character.
I have also heard (more women than men) say that if they get married again, their kids will always come first. I really have to question this attitude. There will always be times when the kids have something going on that makes them a priority. And I would certainly never put my kids behind a guy i’m just seeing. But if/when I get married again; I won’t be putting my spouses feelings and wants behind my kids in all things, I won’t take automatically take their side against him etc. There might be circumstances where this won’t be possible but in the reasonable stuff – i think it works.
JB says
Again running some average numbers and I know there are MANY variables to these.
The average single mom has custody which gives her “every other weekend” and 2 “weeknights” a month to be “kidless” and date. = 6 date days a month for HER
Her ex husband by this math gets 24 kidless nights a month to date.
Who’s more likely to have and maintain a successful relationship? Who’d more likely to “find love?”
Rose says
JB.
“Who’s more likely to have and maintain a successful relationship? Who’d more likely to “find love”
Depends what they are doing in that free time. If they always do what they did, they will always get what they got. The person who is more likely to find love and be in a successful relationship is the one who wakes up and realizes that love is inside them not out there. And wants to share that love with the right person for them who has also reached that place of understanding. Otherwise they will just repeat same old mistakes and same old story with next man or woman reliving it over and over again. This sadly is whathappens to most as they do not ever get to that point of understanding. Higher rates of divorce for second marriages and higher still for third. Unless you do the work. Doesn’t matter how much time one has if you don’t use that time to question and discover and learn from past mistakes.
GreatGal says
Rose, I get what you’re saying and it’s true. Nevertheless,not having enough free nights certainly does affect single mom’s ability to find someone compatible and then to grow the relationship.
Rose says
GreatGal, I believe that Evan hit the nail on the head there with that one. That when you get to that place the right man for you, who just is into you as a person and starts to care about the real you will naturally move things forward and want to also spend time, get to meet your kids, introduce you to them and things will naturally progress. And not just into how many nights you are available and not available to go on ‘dates’ with him where you go dutch treating you like a buddy although I would question that as a date or just wanting you to have casual sex with him was really him sending you the message that he was looking and wanting to be in a romantic realtionship with anyone. Seems crystal clear to me what a man is interested in by what he is inviting you to do. If he is gingivitis you to come and hang out like his buddy? Romantic get to know the real you on the inside date? Booty call casual surface level physical sex focusing on what you are wearing and your looks?
So like Evan says it boils down to making better choices on who you date.
What do you want? What sort of date do you want to accept?
If you are out with your kids at local pool, park etc or having fun doing what you like and someone chats with you is also now single with kids, he may just ask you for a date, who knows. Authentic in the moment real you he is attracted to then.
Flea says
I’m a single mom of two girls, 7 and 4. I’ve always been upfront and apologetic about my situation. I live in a different town than my ex so I have my girls 100% of the time. That means I need a week notice to find a babysitter. I’ve never dated a man who had a problem with me being a single mom. If they did, it never got past the first conversation. The men I’ve dated have said they admire me for being a good mother. I am currently in a relationship with a man who doesn’t have kids. We live together so it’s been a huge adjustment for him, but he knows that they are part of the deal and he has fun with them. They don’t think of him as a dad, but they love him and think he’s silly and they like that he makes me happy. I have to work hard to have alone time with my man, but he’s worth it so I find the time.
sarahrahrah! says
As a middle aged single parent, I also have sometimes felt discouraged by circumstances. It is interesting to read the few male opinions on this subject. Overall, it seems that they only hold negative as opposed to positive stereotypes of single moms. This somewhat mirrors my experience of dating as a single mother. While I definitely do not expect to be wined and dined, I also expect to be treated like I’m valued by the other person. This can take many forms, not just paying for the first date. For the record, I have *never* viewed a man as a potential source of income for my kids.
Even though I felt that the granny panties comment was uncool, I also understand how it is also very hard to “compete” with childless women. They have extra time and money to spend on hair, nails, etc. and I feel lucky to be able to get in a workout. Nonetheless, I’m happy, healthy and open to new experiences. I also have a relatively high sex drive, but not that many men know about or expect that because I only have sex with someone when I am in a committed relationship — and I’m only getting pickier about that aspect as time progresses.
In terms of single dads, my experience has been that there are a lot more of them than there are single mothers and I get the impression that single women are more open to dating them than single men are to single mothers. There is also the matching schedules issue which can be a nightmare, but smart people can usually work around that. Overall, if you can make it work with all of the variables, single dads are great dating options. As Goldie mentioned, you get a sneak peek at someone’s character by seeing how much time and energy they put into their own children.
For single parents who haven’t had luck dating online, I recommend joining Parents Without Partners or other groups or meetups for single parents. They are good sources of support and are also a way to meet potential dates in a more natural setting.
@ Scaramouche – #45
Can you do the fandango? 😉
Joe says
Ladies, do you penalize a dad if he doesn’t see his kids because of because of the custody arrangement or because his ex won’t let him?
Julia says
Well Joe-lots of guys lie about their ex’s not letting them see their kids but if a guy makes it clear he doesn’t feel he needs to pay support or that he really doesn’t care to see his kid I would not go out with this man.
Believe it or not, there are deadbeat dads out there. I have family members and friends who had to continuously sue the fathers of their children to get them to pay their support agreement. If a man has a custody agreement and his ex isn’t honoring it, they likewise can take it up legally.
Chance says
@Julia
You didn’t really answer Joe’s question. Instead, you twisted it around with a response that fits the typical man=bad / woman=good worldview of some of the female posters on this blog.
Fi says
@ Joe #55
I would feel bad for him if a father doesn’t get to see his own children because the ex wouldn’t let him. (I’m assuming that the father does love his own offspring here though.)
Rose says
I know of women who do not let their ex’s see their children unsupervised if the ex has a drug/alcohol problem or other safety issues.
Only taking it slow and time would tell what was really going on. It takes time for the real character to show.
Julia says
@Chance there is some truth to what I said. I am 31 so this question is largely moot, the single fathers I have dated are not divorcees or married when they were very young because of pregnancy, they have all had equal custody of their children. Even the men who have their kids on the weekend seemed very OK with it. If I met a a man who said his ex-wife was keeping his children away from him I would be skeptical or at the very least it might set off an alarm with me.
Divorces and other people’s relationships can be messy but I think if a man said his ex was keeping him from his children I would probably pass up on dating the man. If that seems unfair to you, sorry, I have the right to reject a man for whatever reason I want. Just like John has the right to reject women who wear big underwear.
Sparkling Emerald says
General response to the topic of men who don’t see their kids, because of the ex.
I know there are deadbeat dads, and I know there are bitter conniving ex-wives who use their children as a weapon against their ex husband.
If a man came right and told me he didn’t want to have a relationship with his kids, or didn’t feel like he should have to pay child support, then of course, that would tell me all I need to know about his character, and I would have an easy decision to make.
If he was indeed being torn away from his children by a vindictive ex, that would be heartbreaking. but that would also likely mean there was still lots of drama between him and his ex, and although I would be sympathetic, I don’t know if I would want to start a relationship with someone going through such drama.
I abhor the way our court system allows ex-wives to keep their children from their father. It’s horrid to the father, it’s horrid to the children. I wish the courts would be as vigorous about enforcing visitation rights as they are about enforcing child support.
Yes, I know there are probably reverse cases, where a bullying hubby manages to get the mother declared unfit and keep her from her children, and convince a family court judge to assist him. But I think in most cases, men get the short end of the stick when it comes to child custody.
John says
Sparkling Emerald @42
Also, instead of criticizing her “big boring panties”, how about just telling her how fun it would be if she wrapped her cute little caboose in something lacy (or whatever) from Victoria’s Secret ? You could show her what you like in a catalogue, even a Target sale flyer has some cute lingerie you could show and tell her in a fun flirty way
I did bring up the topic in a good way. After our 2nd time, we were getting dressed again and I told her she has such a sexy body and would she ever wear something more skimpy. That’s when she gave me the ‘moms don’t wear thongs” line. So I really doubt using your way would have changed her mind. I asked her in a complimentary way as a matter of discussion. As far as showing her a Target flyer with skimpy underwear? I don’t think it would have made a difference. If I used my approach or your approach she still would have delivered that classic line. Heck I even asked her “how about the bikinis with a full back that has the strings on the sides?” She laughed and thought I was just being silly. Next time I saw her, it was the same ‘ol boring stuff.
JustMe says
Sparkling Emerald @ 61
“I know there are deadbeat dads, and I know there are bitter conniving ex-wives who use their children as a weapon against their ex husband.”
+1
I also know there are women who use their kids as weapon. I know I don’t know the whole story either. So I usually listen.
An real life example for Joe.
I went on a first date with a man who was twice divorced. He had two kids with wife #1 and two kids with wife #2. In the course of conversation, he told me he had arranged to have all 4 kids on the same weekends. (seeing his kids – good thing) and then he told me that his oldest child (a daughter) from wife #1 had asked if they could come on opposite weekends. What he told me was that this comment made him so mad he wanted to punch her in the face. The two sides are: he wants all his kids at the same time, she wants some time where she doesn’t have to share her dad with his other family. His response, though, was troubling. He continued to tell me that wife #1 was remarried and now he just played “uncle”. His word. I thought he meant he wasn’t there for the day to day dad stuff and just did the fun stuff. But then he said he would be the dad to his kids with wife #2 until she remarried and then he would be “uncle” to those kids.
While you don’t know the whole situation, you can listen to what they say; they will reveal themselves.
Rose says
Feels sooo difficult to resist the temptation of being naughty of posting a pic of my bum in sweatpants that are slightly see through that show my cute boy boxers. Thank God I didn’t wear a thong when wearing those to the gym. lol Although I do love sexy silky thongs for the right outfit and occasion.
Sometimes it feels difficult to behave.
Frimmel says
If I seem negative about single mothers it is largely based on experience. I do my best to set that aside in each new circumstance. Often single mothers are just bad at the whole dating thing or just not as ready for it as they think. In my experience single mothers are all the work of childless women along with a set of limitations created by caring for the children.
And dating/pursuing a single mother for men comes with the implicit or at least infers acceptance of at some point being responsible for those children’s welfare should things work out. This is not to say being their father but you are going to be an adult in their lives. Depending on the age of the children you will quite possibly end up in some sort of no man’s land as neither a friend or parent or teacher or coach. Unless you are just going to have your relationship only when the children are with their father you aren’t just taking on one new relationship to pursue a woman with children.
And if you’ve done all the time and invested in the woman and you’re ready to meet her kids and they despise you and she cuts you loose over it? Or decides it isn’t working after you’ve developed a relationship with those kids?
And if you’re already a man who doesn’t see his own kids enough? Yes, nothing more on the line for you dating a single mom. /sarcasm font
I’d also like to point out (since the whole beat dead dad trope has been dragged out) that a really important thing for me is whether or not the single mom expects and desires that her children spend time with their father as their father and not just with him as her babysitter. Your custody arrangement is also a reflection on you and on your character, not just on the children’s father.
mcurious says
maybe guys are negative about it b/c it legitimately makes things harder vs easier?
Ruby says
John #62
So you stopped dating a woman who you liked, who you found very sexy, because you didn’t like her underwear? After sleeping with her 3 times? Talk about picky!
Goldie says
@ Joe 55,
Cannot answer your question, because this has never happened to me. I’ve never been on a date with a guy that didn’t ever see or support his children, whether it would be because he didn’t want to or because the ex wouldn’t let him. In my previous comment, I was referring more to the comments I’d seen on here a few times previously, that a divorced dad is somehow less valuable because a good portion of his paycheck goes towards child support and otherwise supporting his kids. These comments are coming from men more often than from women. From this woman’s standpoint, if a man spends time and money on his kids, especially if he spends extra and not just what the court has ordered, to me it’s an asset, not a liability.
Several of my girl friends have ex-husbands that are deadbeat dads — always behind on child support, faking proof of income to pay lower child support, bailing on visitations an weekends with kids etc. All these men have new families and new kids, and I honestly don’t understand who would want them as husbands and fathers of their children. To me a husband like this sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. If an ex doesn’t let a man see his children and has a court’s approval for that, I imagine I probably would really want to know why before I get serious with that man. Did he have physical abuse problems, substance abuse problems? why did she decide that he shouldn’t see his children and how did she manage to get this approved? it isn’t easy to get something like that through the court in our day and age, unless she had a very good reason. But like I said, this isn’t something that I ever had to deal with, so don’t really know the answer to your question.
nathan says
I have dated single mothers before. I really didn’t have a lot of problems with scheduling, unrealistic expectations around money, or entitlement. This issue with clothing, which seems pretty trivial to me overall, can be viewed as a symbolic representation of divergent lifestyle philosophies. In John’s case, perhaps he’s more outgoing, active, and driven by excitement, whereas the woman he was dating was more content hanging around at home, doing simple activities, and having “vanilla” sex. No judgement on either end, just different approaches. You can find women and men in sweatpants and boring underwear anywhere – children are not needed for that.
One thing I question, which someone else above mentioned, is the “kids always come first” attitude. In the short term, as you’re deciding about relationship potential and developing a connection, this is absolutely the right way to go. However, as a lifelong belief going forward, it’s problematic. No one wants to be treated second class all the time, and I do think this happens in some relationships with single parents (mothers and fathers).
In some respects, I think this mentality is most prevalent amongst parents with young children, where much more direct care is required. However, even in my experience, I dated one single mother with two children under 10 and never felt like that was an issue. It helped a lot that she had a good extended family network, so that caring for every last need of the kids wasn’t on her shoulders. She is a great mother, and was a good partner while we were together. I really think that we as a society need to move beyond this idea that a mother or father (especially mothers) must devote every last ounce of energy to their kids in order to be “worthy.” So much of these conflicts over availability and competing needs would be lessened if we prioritized developing broader care circles for children, so that single parents (and married parents) wouldn’t be so alone in their work. People give lip service to the phrase “It’s takes a village,” but that’s about it.
Fi says
@Nathan #68
Just my 2 cents..
I sort of think of the question you brought up is very similar to the one that a wife/gf may ask her husband/bf: who would you save if you mom and I both were drown? Of course no one like to be treated as a second class, however, to me, my baby is my family, a date or a boyfriend is not (yet). Plus I would assume I am dating a fully grown adults that can take care of himself in most of the occasions (but yeah we all need help sometimes.). I also think the love between two adults is different from the love between parents and children.
I guess that’s why how badly a guy broke up with his ex-gf isn’t that big of a issue to me (as long as there’s no physical violence) comparing to a father abandoning his own children (big no-no).
I, as a single mommy, just figure working full time, going to school part time, plus a baby really makes my schedule crazy (my family is overseas) and is not fair to anyone I date, so I’m taking a long break before I can finish my school. After all, if one has no time to devote the the other in a relationship, how would it work?
Just my thoughts though, it’s interesting to see how people see things differently from different aspect 🙂
Goldie says
@ Frimmel 65:
“I’d also like to point out (since the whole beat dead dad trope has been dragged out) that a really important thing for me is whether or not the single mom expects and desires that her children spend time with their father as their father and not just with him as her babysitter. Your custody arrangement is also a reflection on you and on your character, not just on the children’s father.”
I’d realistically, it’s a combination of both. Personally my kids are 17 and 20. They don’t need father-son time all that drastically. But I’ve been telling them all these years that their father needs time with them. The 20yo now comes home from college specifically on those weekends that he’s going to dad’s. That’s on one hand. On the other hand, hell yeah I have to admit it does feel good to have a house to myself (or to myself and my bf) for two nights a month. I would guess that most single moms feel the same way — that their ex needs time with the kids, kids need time with dad, and at the same time, she needs some time on her own too. Nothing wrong with that.
Nathan, I hear you about extended families. I’ve been fortunate that my parents have been able to help out with the kids. As a result, they have all bonded with each other. Now my parents cannot help out anymore due to health issues, but all four of them still enjoy each other’s company.
Andrea says
I haven’t read the comments but I kind of disagree. I’ve done both – date guys with and without kids. The guys with kids “get it” but then you get all their baggage plus your own – which in my case was significantly less than his – having an older “spirited” child was not something I wanted to sign my kids up to dealing with for their otherwise blissfully happy childhood years.
Let me put it this way – someone with kids gets it. Someone without them may not but may be willing to. Neither is right nor wrong but you can’t assume all kid and parent-kid relationships are equal. I’ve met men who have their kids all but 3 hours per week (!) and others that have them only a few(!). This is not as easiliy explained as this post.
Sorry, Evan, this is much more complex than you’re implying. I would never exclude a guy who has kids from my dating pool but I wouldn’t one without either. Both can work and have pros/cons.
Sparkling Emerald says
John — First you said “I asked her if she would wear some sexy underwear instead of the big boring ones (don’t play dumb you know exactly what those are Goldie). Her reply to me was “Moms don’t wear thongs”. Major turn off to me.
———————————————————————————————
Then you contradicted yourself and said “After our 2nd time, we were getting dressed again and I told her she has such a sexy body and would she ever wear something more skimpy. That’s when she gave me the ‘moms don’t wear thongs” line.”
———————————————————————————————
So which is it, did you compliment her body, or put down her “boring” underwear?
Also, from this one experience you conclude that single moms wear boring underwear and non-Moms don’t ?
Anyway, seems like a minor thing to me, since if you don’t like her undies, you can just take them off. But if it’s a deal breaker for you, so be it. I just hope you don’t get into any online lecturing of us female posters for “shrinking” our dating pool, for whatever criteria we have.
Anita says
Weighing in on the underwear question. I would think that the so-called unattractive underwear would be sexiest: “OMG, would you please remove that unattractive underwear!” And thongs might actually be unsexy: “That thong is so darn attractive I hope you never take it off!” I know. Counter-intuitive.
JB says
“Believe it or not, there are deadbeat dads out there”
Yeah we believe it because one of them just won the 318 million dollar Powerball and he owed $29,000! I’m sure his baby momma forgives him now….LOL
As far as the “underwear” thing. It doesn’t mean a thing to me. It’s who’s wearing the underwear that’s important. 🙂
Karmic Equation says
Thanks, Ladies, for all the replies regarding dating as a single parent. Having never had children, I couldn’t fully appreciate the complexity of dating as a single-mom until now. Kudos.
Re: “mommy underwear” — I didn’t read John’s anecdote as he broke up with her because of it, but rather that her reply was unreceptive. And the replies of most ladies here sounded defensive, too. When a guy trusts you enough to tell you what he thinks and lets you know what he wants, an answer like “mommies don’t wear thongs” is a rude, like saying “shut up” without saying shut up. Had I been in that situation, I would have said, “You buy it, I’ll wear it” with a sassy wink. Make him put his money where his mouth is.
If you don’t already own them, buy boy-shorts type underwear with the single seam vertically down the center (2-panels). Don’t buy the three-panel boy-shorts. Those create underwear lines. The 2-panel boy-shorts are just as good at thongs at eliminating underwear lines and are also hygenienic and comfortable, which thongs aren’t. I think all boy-shorts make a woman’s butt look sexy, but not all thongs do. But I’m not a guy, so I’m sure they’ll disagree. You can never go wrong with having a few pairs of thongs, though. You can’t help but be aware of your sexuality when you’re wearing them.
The correlation to “mommy underwear” is a guy with tighty-whities. I think that is just soo UN-sexy! Boxers or boxer-briefs, thank you. If I make out with a guy and discover he’s wearing tighty-whities…there’s no next time. Does that make me superficial? Maybe. But I actually think guys who wear boxers are more sexually aware and less uptight than guys wearing tighty-whities. At least that has been my experience.
Goldie says
@ 75, Karmic you bring up an interesting point. Do I find tighty-whities, or no manscaping whatsoever, in a man, to be a turn-off? Yup. Would I stop dating a guy based on that alone? No, I would’ve missed out on some quality people if I’d done that. Some guys are just so awesome all around, they can get away with wearing tighty-whities, because their good qualities outweigh that one bad one by far. At least that’s been my experience 🙂
Karmic Equation says
@Goldie 76
Well, I have to admit my superficiality with the tighty-whities was relatively recent, i.e., after my divorce (around 7 years ago). Exhubby was a tighty-whities guy and had converted himself to boxers about year 3 into our marriage. I actually didn’t care (or noticed) about tighty-whitiies before him.
After my divorce, younger men started hitting on me. That’s when I discovered manscaping. I have to admit that now when men my age hit on me, I notice if they shave their unibrows and keep their nosehair trimmed. If they have hair showing out of their nostrils and between their eyes, I pretty much guess they’re not manscaped elsewehere. One of the things I do when men hit on me is ask myself can I see myself having a physical relationship with them. I’ll you, when I ask myself these questions, my mind shows me the stray hair between the eyebrows and the overlong nosehairs, and shrieks, NOOOO… even if I *know* they are quality people.
Does that mean I’ll miss out on quality men, I know I have and will. But there are many more fish in the sea, so why not find ones you can see yourself be intimate with.
Just to clarify, I wasn’t trying to imply women in mommie-underwear lacked personality or good points. And I wasn’t saying it was ok to stop datind them because of it. But rather admitting to my own superficiality.
marymary says
Karmic
Hanky Panky lace thongs are comfortable, flattering and one size fits most so
John,
you can give them as a gift.
JustMe says
I like my cheekies. tried the thong, tried the boy short, tried the cheekies – sold!
Karmic Equation says
@marymary
Thanks for the tip. I’m going to buy some of that brand!
John says
Sparkling Emerald @72
So which is it, did you compliment her body, or put down her “boring” underwear?
I don’t know where your confusion lies. I did both. She had a good body and boring underwear and I mentioned both. Not sure what’s so difficult to comprehend.
Karmic Equation @75
Had I been in that situation, I would have said, “You buy it, I’ll wear it” with a sassy wink. Make him put his money where his mouth is.
That would have been a great answer. I love lingerie shopping with the girl I am with. I have done that on numerous occasions where we go together where we (with heavy influence from me) pick something out and I pay for it. I would never go into one of those stores by myself though and buy them. I have gotten a girl a gift card from VS though. The only caveat is that it has to be used for some skimpy stuff- not a “Love Pink” sweatpants.
Alana says
I swear I laughed at loud at “not a Love Pink sweatpants”…I get what you’re trying to say about the whole “boring underwear” comment..I assure you though not all moms single or not wear them..There are a lot of woman that don’t know how to be sexy or have forgotten how to be sexy in my opinion..I also think that women should have underwear for every occasion,,being that certain underwear can’t be worn with certain clothing..Every woman I would hope likes to feel beautiful,,I don’t get out much so there are times that I spruce myself up just to go to the supermarket or just to stay home,,I don’t want to let myself go simply because I’m a single mother(not saying all do but some do)..If it’s a day of relaxation then sweat pants would be okay they have a lot of sweat pants that make you look really good(well at least mine do) but I won’t wear them all the time being men like to see you in a sexy light as well BUT men too have to understand that a woman can be sexy and relaxed(dressed) at the same time..I can work a pair of 6 inch heels the same way I can work a comfy pair of sneakers,,lol..I’m not gonna wear a pair of sweat pants with some “granny panties” under either,,lol,,sweat pants then some nice undies can be worn under it..So I guess all I’m trying to say here is that the sex appeal really has to do with the person..
Sparkling Emerald says
John 81
“I don’t know where your confusion lies. I did both. She had a good body and boring underwear and I mentioned both. Not sure what’s so difficult to comprehend. ”
——————————————–
Well there you go. You ruined a compliment by wrapping it in an insult. (or maybe you tried to soft pedal an insult by wrapping it in a compliment)
EMK, is always cautioning women to NOT put men down, critisize. (IOW, don’t give a rant about you hate texting, just say you’d like to hear the sound of his voice) Very good advice, and you know what ? It works both ways.
It reminds me of a boyfriend in my 20’s. I got a new shag haircut, and he said he loved my new hair cut. (Good thing) Then he had to ruin the compliment by saying that it was about time I did something with that scraggly hair of mine. (BTW, it wasn’t “scraggly” just long, all one length and parted in the middle. Always kept trimmed , shampooed and conditioned) So un-nessesary, he could have just said he loved the new do, without putting down the old do.
I wasn’t there, so I don’t know her voice tone, when she made the “Moms don’t wear thongs” comment, but if it was indeed snooty, well, you insulted her, so don’t be surprised at her snooty come back.
Me, I’m a mom, and I don’t where thongs (unless you are talking about shoes), but if I think there’s a good chance someone cute will be viewing and/or removing my undies, I ditch the big boring ones, and go for the cute little ones. In fact, buying a new lingerie wardrobe is one of my favorite parts of a being in a new relationship.
Jennifer says
I think the point of the thong comment was to illustrate why some guys don’t like to date some Mom’s- they take their Mom identity and bring it to unnecessary places- like their lingerie choices. Not all Mom’s do this of course, but I think it’s a point well taken.
Sparkling Emerald says
Jennifer – ONE remark from ONE mom about “Mom’s not wearing thongs” in response to an insult, is hardly indicative of all moms. Moms and non-Moms alike wear “boring” underwear, Moms and non-Moms alike where lacy, silky, poika-dot, see thru, bikinis. The only thing I can think of that would influence a mom’s choice of underwear is the wear and tear childbirth had on her body. If she has really bad stretch marks and is conscientious of them, then she might hide them behind her lingerie. Can hardly blame them on that point. Men these days do seem to be going over women with a fine tooth comb, both physically and personality wise, looking for a reason to eliminate them. At first I thought I was just imagining that, but there is a book “Have Him at Hello” (I think that’s the title) where a matchmaker did “exit” interviews with men who did not call women back for a second date, and she admits that men are like this. I didn’t read the whole book, but from what I read, I almost wanted to give up, right then and there. Really, she painted a picture of men as very petty and impossible to please. But really, it is just a book, and somewhere in the Universe there has to be a man who just wants to connect with a woman, and not put her through some audition, where even the slightest mistake (or personality quirk, or wrong body language, or the wrong underwear, ) means she won’t be cast in the role of his leading lady.
I think dating mom has it’s problems (as with dating single dads to an extent) mostly being scheduling difficulties, the kids coming first, etc. I think underwear would be very low on the list of “things that are wrong with single Moms” unless someone wants a relationship that is purely sexual.
Karmic Equation says
Sparkling #82
It reminds me of a boyfriend in my 20”²s. I got a new shag haircut, and he said he loved my new hair cut. (Good thing) Then he had to ruin the compliment by saying that it was about time I did something with that scraggly hair of mine.
While you may not have taken it that way, your bf was showing you affection (I’m assuming his tone wasn’t derogatory, but perhaps light and flavored with a touch of sarcasm). Think of it as a grown-up equivalent of pulling a girl’s pigtails to indicate that he likes her.
Jennifer #83
I agree with your conclusion, that mom’s bring their mom identities to their underwear. But I don’t think men are think that deeply 🙂 I got the feeling the turn-off from John was her unreceptiveness to his idea and her answer precluded further discussion. That was the real turn-off, her rudeness and lack of openness and lack of appreciation for his candor.
Ruby says
Sparkling #84
“The only thing I can think of that would influence a mom’s choice of underwear is the wear and tear childbirth had on her body. ”
I hadn’t thought of that, but I suspect you might be right. Women can be quite self-conscious about these things. Asking a woman to wear skimpier underwear when she’s self-conscious about her stretchmakrks or tummy fat could have prompted her reaction. I don’t think either party meant to be “rude”, but I can see how it might have come across that way.
Blaming the other person for their boring underwear or any other lack of perfection is a good way to avoid any issues the other party might have with commitment. Heaven forbid that it could be the criticizer who has the problem!
Karmic Equation says
Sparkling & Ruby
Hmmmm…He’s already having sex with her, more than once, I imagine, if he feels comfortable enough to indicate his preference in lingerie. So he’s ALREADY SEEN her stretch marks or belly fat if she has them. And he’s still having sex with her, so that wasn’t the problem.
@Sparkling #82
…but if I think there’s a good chance someone cute will be viewing and/or removing my undies, I ditch the big boring ones, and go for the cute little ones.
I doubt this particular mom was having a one-night stand sex with John. And no man mentions a woman’s underwear if it was an ONS sex–he’s just psyched to get that far. So I think we can safely say that this mom was on a DATE with John first, so she should already have been wearing her non-mommie lingerie. Whether or not it was in her plans to sleep with him that night, she should have dressed from the skin out with the date in mind, to put herself in the right mood for a date. She was unreceptive at the least and rude at worst.
As to the Have Him at Hello book, again, you missed the point. It isn’t that men are pickly, but rather than MOST reasons that men don’t date a woman for a second time is WITHIN the woman’s control. Meaning if she were self-aware, and yes, CRITICAL OF HER OWN BEHAVIOR, she might be able to make the adjustments so that she can get that 2nd date with the man she finds attractive.
No one is perfect, but just as you wouldn’t tell your interviewer to shut up or wear your foot-thongs on a job interview and expect to be hired, you shouldn’t be anything less than feminine and receptive if you’re looking for a relationship.
Ruby says
Karmic #87
“He’s already having sex with her, more than once, I imagine, if he feels comfortable enough to indicate his preference in lingerie. ”
He mentioned his preference on the second date, so I’m not sure how great a comfort level had been established at that point. So actually, barely more than a ONS). He did write that he stopped seeing her, although I don’t know if there were other reasons, as he doesn’t say. Also, it doesn’t matter how comfortable he is, if she isn’t.
I can’t comment much on the book, since I haven’t read it, but I’m sure that women could write their own book about why they don’t go out with guys a second time too.
Ruby says
Oh, not second date, but second time they had sex.
John says
Sparkling Emerald @84
I think dating mom has it’s problems (as with dating single dads to an extent) mostly being scheduling difficulties, the kids coming first, etc. I think underwear would be very low on the list of “things that are wrong with single Moms” unless someone wants a relationship that is purely sexual.
With this Mom who I dated for 4 months, there were a lot of things I compromised on. For instance: no sex if I went to her place and the kids were home because she was afraid they might hear, many Saturday nights without sleeping over if her ex didn’t have the kids, constant interrupting phone calls and texts (the kids were 12 and 14) when they were at their Dads if we went to dinner or the movies. So if I dealt with all of that, then I thought it would be fair to ask for some skimpy underwear whenever we were able to have alone time. So while underwear type is low on your priority list, it is high on mine if I am making a ton of other sacrifices simply because she is a Mom.
Jennifer and Karmic Equation- thanks for understanding the guy’s point of view.
Karmic Equation says
Ruby #88
I’m sure women could, but there aren’t any books like “Why SHE Disappeared” out there — Women care more about men disappearing than men do about women disappearing. That pesky unintended result of the Sexual Revolution raising it’s ugly head again. Men have more options for BOTH sex and relationships because they can separate them. Whereas most women want sex WITHIN a relationship, and thus limiting their own options.
Hence, if a woman wants a relationship, it behooves her to go about it in the most effective way, namely being self-aware and controlling the perception she creates with a man to get a man interested enough to continue to date her to develop that relationship. You can’t go wrong being feminine and receptive. But if you’re neither, you start limiting your options. You can’t be in a relationship if a guy doesn’t want to date you.
Ruby #89
Oh, not second date, but second time they had sex.
John #29 had written:
“I dated a single Mom and after a few dates when we were sleeping together, I asked her if she would wear some sexy underwear instead of the big boring ones…Her reply to me was “Moms don’t wear thongs”. Major turn off to me. ”
Where did you get that it was only the second time they had sex from? And where did all of you get the idea that John stopped dating her because of the mommie-lingerie? He only said “it” was a major turn-off, not that he stopped seeing her. (Aside; John, you need better sentence structure 🙂 Too much is being left to interpretation!) But if he HAD, i would say her lack of receptiveness and shutting him down did more to make him decide to end the relationship than the actual mommie underwear. BECAUSE if he didn’t really want to date her anymore because of her boring underwear, he would have STOPPED dating her the FIRST time he had sex with her and saw her mommie lingerie.
michelle says
Geez Louise, poor John, I understood what he was saying! Haha…
Ruby says
Karmic
“Where did you get that it was only the second time they had sex from?”
From John himself, #62: “I did bring up the topic in a good way. After our 2nd time, we were getting dressed again and I told her she has such a sexy body and would she ever wear something more skimpy.”
“And where did all of you get the idea that John stopped dating her because of the mommie-lingerie?
Again, I wrote: “He did write that he stopped seeing her, although I don’t know if there were other reasons, as he doesn’t say.” He also writes, “With this Mom who I dated for 4 months, there were a lot of things I compromised on. So while underwear type is low on your priority list, it is high on mine if I am making a ton of other sacrifices simply because she is a Mom.”
Sounds like these two had very different priorities and were not a good match.
“Women care more about men disappearing than men do about women disappearing.”
Given the number of men who post here, on a women’s dating site, about how angry they are at women who don’t want to date them, perhaps they care more than you think?
Karmic Equation says
Ruby
I saw that Frimmel was as passionate about equality for men as women were about equality for women, is that where you saw the “angry” men? Then I guess you must be an angry woman since you posted just as passionately as he. Passion does not equal anger.
There were posts from men who are angry at women’s sense of entitlement just as there are women angry at men for “not doing what women want them to do” — Opposite sides of the same coin.
Men don’t angst about women the way women angst about men, you know it, I know it. So don’t play dumb.
You quoted John out of context to support your nebulous position. His quote IN CONTEXT #90 reads, emphasis mine…
“So if I dealt with all of that, then I thought it would be fair to ask for some skimpy underwear whenever we were able to have alone time. So while underwear type is low on your priority list, it is high on mine if I am making a ton of other sacrifices simply because she is a Mom.”
Since you couldn’t refute his desire for fairness under the circumstances he stated, you had to leave it out. To do otherwise you would have no leg to stand on. IMO, you can’t really defend the mommie-underwear woman for being rude. She was, regardless of whether she was self-conscious or not. If she was self-conscious, after a guy tells her she’s sexy, she should have blown a kiss, not tell him to shut up in so many words. Or as Anita #73 implied, she could have said something like, “If these are so boring, how about if you come over here to take them off again?”
There were many ways for her to perceive and react to his statement that could have resulted in a more positive experience for both of them. But she managed to the ONE that would surely make him unwilling to open up further. You can’t connect with a guy if you tell him to shut up on stuff he’s willing to talk about. Most men are willing to talk about lingerie and sex. And, if you talk about that with them, they’re usually fair, and will reciprocate and talk about stuff that interests you (but not them). Lead by example. The important part of the exchange between John and mommie was not the lingerie, but that she shut him down. There was an opportunity to connect and she missed it.
Ruby says
Karmic
“I saw that Frimmel was as passionate about equality for men as women were about equality for women, is that where you saw the “angry” men? Then I guess you must be an angry woman since you posted just as passionately as he. Passion does not equal anger.”
Both women and men can get angry or upset with each other for the same thing. No disagreement there. But I’m not talking about debating Frimmel. You can find lots of places on this blog where men and women are angry with each other about the opposite sex being too picky, having a sense of entitlement, or whatever you want to call it. That’s exactly what you say here, “There were posts from men who are angry at women’s sense of entitlement just as there are women angry at men for “not doing what women want them to do” – Opposite sides of the same coin.” So why are you questioning me about noticing “angry” men? Not to mention that angst and anger are two different emotions. Women may feel more angst towards the opposite sex, but men may feel more anger.
“You quoted John out of context to support your nebulous position. His quote IN CONTEXT #90 reads, emphasis mine…”
What’s ‘”nebulous” about my position? The two were incompatible, IMO. If you want to think his ex was “rude”, that’s your call. She might have worn what he wanted her to wear, and I don’t know why she didn’t. Was she uncomfortable with her body, uptight, bitchy, maybe conflicted about him or the relationship? Perhaps she felt he didn’t really understand her situation? Who knows? Maybe he made a bigger deal about the underwear because he wasn’t all that happy with the compromises. Given their many differences, I don’t think the underwear issue was the nail in the coffin.
However, lots of single moms have the sorts of issues John had a problem with, and that’s why EMK suggested that the OP date men who are fathers, because they’d have a better understanding of what parents (especially mothers who are the custodial parent) have to deal with.
Sparkling Emerald says
It seems to me that John’s relationship with “Mommie with the boring underwear” was not a good one to begin with. And it seems that he figured she “owed” him a particular type of underwear because of all the other complications her motherhood brought to the table.
I don’t know if her tone was “(silly boy) Moms don’t wear thongs tee-hee” or if was “(you jerk) MOM’S DON’T WEAR THONGS arghhhhhhh !!!!!!” but I do think telling someone that their underwear is boring is rude, so no one should be surprised when rudeness is met with rudeness.
I do think it is probably best for single parents to date each other, they can understand each others challenges. Fortunately for me, I never had to deal with being a single mom & dating. My son was grown when we split up. So technically I am still a “single” mom, but it’s a moot point. The only issue was initially my son was incensed at the idea that I might date again, but he’s over that now, and tells me he just wants me to be happy.
John – You are entitled to whatever preferences you want. If underwear is a deal breaker for you, so be it, it’s YOUR love life, you want what you want, and if you don’t get it from one woman you are certainly entitled to move on. Just hope you can understand the woman’s POV, when they want a man who is of a certain height, who wants to feel a certain amount of chemistry, or whatever her expressed preferences are.
Karmic Equation says
Ruby
You’re the one who introduced the word “angry” to the discussion. So I’m not sure why you need to tell ME the difference between angry and angst. You changed the subject, not me. I just went with your flow.
#95
“What’s ‘”nebulous” about my position?”
Well you started with: John being picky @ #66 – “Talk about picky!”
Then @ #86 you implied John might have a problem with commitment because “Blaming the other person for their boring underwear…is a good way to avoid any issues the other party might have with commitment. Heaven forbid that it could be the criticizer who has the problem!”
Then when John clarified, and it was clear that he was neither picky nor has a problem with commitment, you changed to “Sounds like these two had very different priorities and were not a good match.”
Your whole stream of posts was to deny that mommy could possibly have done anything negative. It was all on John. Then when you, in all fairness, couldn’t blame John anymore, you certainly still couldn’t fault the woman (careful, your feminist is showing) — you then blamed it their collective incompatible priorities…over UNDERWEAR??
You tell me where you WEREN’T nebulous.
My posts have been consistent from the beginning, without knowing any details. I didn’t have to keep shifting blame when more details were provided, because all that needed to be known was stated up front. Mommy’s unreceptiveness to a lover’s suggesion had a negative impact on the lover and thus the relationship. Why is that so hard for you to comprehend?
———–
@Sparkling
You keep focusing on the negative part of John’s comment to the mommy, as did most of the mommy’s here. Very few, if any of the women, focused on the UNSOLICITED compliment John gave her, that she has a sexy body. He’s telling her what he thinks without her asking him. Don’t most women want that from their man? Or am I alone in this?
Apparently, very few women are aware of this fact: Men focus on the POSITIVE in their women…and are often either OBLIVIOUS to or ACCEPTING of a woman’s physical and emotional faults, but not their verbal miscues. They always remember when you say something that makes them feel bad.
So do yourself a big favor, if a guy compliments you in one breath and negs you on the next. ACCEPT the compliment with grace and IGNORE the neg. Give him positive reinforcement for complimenting you: “You think I have a sexy body? I knew there was a reason I liked you” accompanied by big smile and hug.
Or if that is too difficult for you, indirectly make him pay for his criticism:
with a confused, innocent look, “You think my underwear is boring? Darn. Guess you’ll have to go shopping with me to pick out less boring underwear.” And we all know how men love shopping with us. You think he’s going to criticize you again? And an answer like that doesn’t shut a man down. It’ll make him think a bit.
Stop focusing on the negative, Sparkling. Men are UNTHINKING a lot of times and may unintentionally hurt you with their unthinking-ness; but very very few are deliberately hurtful or rude to women. Most men have a sense of chivalry. If you think a man is worth sleeping with, then you need to believe that he isn’t out to hurt you. And if you don’t know a guy well enough to know he’s not out to hurt you, you shouldn’t let him anywhere near your underwear.
Stace says
Karmic,
I think I love you and I am a woman.lol
Alana says
LOL,,,I’m with Stace on this one…
Frimmel says
We aren’t unthinking per se. We’re just taught that how we feel isn’t all that important. We are also taught that our feelings are our own responsibility and that we’d damn well better have them under control at all times. We’re only allowed appropriate emotions at appropriate times. This can make it easy for us to forget or not consider important the feelings of others.
I’ll say it again, “Why Men Are the Way They Are” by Warren Farrell.
Re #94
Thanks, for sticking up for me Karmic. I also appreciate your defense of John’s comments. I appreciate that you can so often see where we’re coming from.
Ruby says
Karmic
“There were posts from men who are angry at women’s sense of entitlement just as there are women angry at men for “not doing what women want them to do” – Opposite sides of the same coin. Men don’t angst about women the way women angst about men, you know it, I know it. So don’t play dumb.
Hmmm, sounds like you are comparing angst and anger to me.
“Mommy’s unreceptiveness to a lover’s suggesion had a negative impact on the lover and thus the relationship.”
Well, Mommie isn’t here to tell us her side of the story, and it’s hard for me to micro-analyze their relationship with the limited information I do have, nor do I care to. Yes, my position about what happened evolved as I got more details from John, which he didn’t reveal until after several posts. That happens sometimes when you get more information, what you previously believed to be true changes.
There’s nothing wrong with your suggestions for what the girlfriend might have said. Could she have compromised? Sure, but she isn’t here to explain why she didn’t. However, the woman’s entire lifestyle had a negative impact for John, (re-read his comments in #90) so their differences were a lot more complex than her not being receptive to his suggestion that she wear different underwear. When a relationship descends into “I did x, y, and z for you, now you have to do x for me”, it’s not a good situation. John’s entitled to his preferences, but then again, so was she.
You questioned me when you hadn’t even read all of John’s posts, but you didn’t like being called out for that. I still don’t think you can say with utter certainty how picky or commitmentphobic John really is, but I do think it’s pretty safe to say that these two were not on the same page, and why, which goes back to the OP’s question. Remember that?
Karmic Equation says
@Frimmel
YW. Your appreciation is appreciated 🙂 I bought the book and started reading it. But it wasn’t available as an eBook, so I’ve been struggling to find time to read it since I no longer like to carry physical books around. LOL
Ruby @93 wrote:
Given the number of men who post here, on a women’s dating site, about how angry they are at women who don’t want to date them, perhaps they care more than you think?
Again, YOU introduced the word angry. Not I. Anger also doesn’t equal caring.
I did miss his statement that it was the 2nd time they had sex. Mea culpa. Does that change anything? If you think how many times one has sex with a man determines her receptivity to his suggestions on lingerie, then ok. But I would say that at the moment a woman decides take a man on as a lover, she should be receptive to his ideas on lingerie.
How can you say you can’t micro-analyze their relationship because of limited information and “nor do you care to” and then go and micro-analyze it anyway?
“When a relationship descends into “I did x, y, and z for you, now you have to do x for me”, it’s not a good situation.” How do you know it DESCENDED to that?
It doesn’t matter what John was THINKING when he made the suggestion. And it doesn’t matter what SHE was thinking when he made the suggestion. All that matters is the interaction itself. WHEN John made the SUGGESTION, she SHOT HIM DOWN in a way that PRECLUDED further discussion. Being shot down made him feel bad. Guys don’t like to be around women who make them feel bad. Precluding further discussion meant he wasn’t about to open up again. So even if they were superbly compatible with her mommy status, her STYLE OF COMMUNICATING (if this incident was typical) left a lot to be desired.
What I’m saying is that, yes, it would make all the mommies feel better if they can blame a non-parent-single-guy for not being compatible with and/or not understanding their single-parenthood, than to take the responsibility for any failures of those relationships because of their own behaviors. I understand better the complexities of dating as a single-parent and I’m just glad I don’t have to do that…BUT if you sign on to date as a single-mom, you can’t STOP being feminine or receptive or thinking of yourself as a woman first. If you do, you’re just going to add to your own frustrations.
IMO, John tried and did make concessions to her single-parenthood. What single guy wants to sleep alone on Saturday nights if they’re dating someone? What man wants his evenings with his date to be interrupted by kids’ texts? If he were as shallow as you gals are trying to paint him to be, he would have been out of there in month 2 not month 4.
Ruby, I agree with you that the underwear thing was not the nail in the coffin. And I do agree that they had different priorities. Where we disagree is that in the mommy case, I’d say HER priorities were MISPLACED when she was John’s lover, because she was still thinking of herself as her children’s mommy, and not of herself as a woman first. Maybe single-dads would be ok with having a woman be a in her mommy state 24/7. But I doubt it.
JustMe says
I really don’t want to get into the fray but if I were in an intimate relationship, I would want the other person to tell what they would like, from clothing to . . . well, you know.
Also, If I were to put myself into the woman’s shoes who made the comment, I might have said something like that because I was embarrassed. We can’t really know why she did though.
John says
Karmic Equation @100
IMO, John tried and did make concessions to her single-parenthood. What single guy wants to sleep alone on Saturday nights if they’re dating someone? What man wants his evenings with his date to be interrupted by kids’ texts? If he were as shallow as you gals are trying to paint him to be, he would have been out of there in month 2 not month 4.
Bingo. That’s exactly it. You are very intuitive. I felt like it was just too much work. The thought did cross my mind after a couple of months to end it but did want to give it a chance. I didn’t want to be accused of being too picky. But alas nothing changed. So when I saw this blog topic I spelled out my reasons on how a woman with kids could make herself more dateable. As for the underwear thing, I felt like it wasn’t a lot to ask. It was a lot less to ask her to wear a thong than it was for her to ask me to accommodate her kids schedules and constant interruptions. But I was willing to and she never felt the need to to reciprocate in a way that was important to me.
Every girl I have had a long term or short term relationship with always wore the good stuff on their own. And the rare time they didn’t, they were very receptive to looking in a catalog. But this one was dead set against it. So when you add that onto everything else, I felt the relationship ran its course. She probably felt it ran its course too.
Sparkling Emerald says
John – Sounds like you two weren’t a match to begin with, which is one of the downsides of having sex after a few dates. I don’t necessarily think you or she was wrong, but Karmic seems to think she broke some universally known rule of the relationship Universe and is WRONG, WRONG, double WRONG for not letting you decide on her lingerie wardrobe.
What I don’t understand, since most women wear the good stuff on their own, and those who don’t were receptive, why you felt the need to come onto a primarily women’s blog and give a blanket scolding to single moms about “boring underwear” when so few women wear “boring underwear” for sex, and it probably doesn’t run along motherhood lines anyway. (My underwear preferences didn’t change after motherhood)
Also, in the great underwear debate of 2013, a men’s website (think it was ask men, not to sure) listed some “turn ons” for men, and listed white cotton underwear worn occasionally as a turn on. So go figure, one mans “boring” underwear, is another mans turn on (but apparently only when worn “occasionally”) I have a feeling those white cotton undies are part of some naughty school girl fantasy, (plaid skirt and knee socks included) but that’s a whole ‘nother topic.
I don’t think this is about who is right vs who is wrong. You guys were just different. I have a hunch (unscientific hunch) that this was more about the single mommy feeling like she wasn’t being accepted for who she was. If a woman came on here and told the men to shave the beard, because SHE finds it a turn off, and her last boyfriend REFUSED to shave his beard, even when she said “Pretty please, I’d love to see more of your handsome face” I’ll bet you guys in the “We own your underwear choice” camp would be screaming bloody murder about how she should just accept him the way he is.
I was a step mother in my first marriage, and believe me, I made many accomodations, but I loved my step son, and my husband, and I never would have figured that my my hubby “owed” it to me to start dressing differently, because I was picking up his son from school, or what ever.
Sparkling Emerald says
Karmic – 97
“@Sparkling
You keep focusing on the negative part of John’s comment . . . . etc etc.
————-
You DON’T know me, so don’t give me unwanted advice. You have already back tracked on one statement, saying now that you had more info on me, you understood something I said in another thread.
As far as me focusing on the negative, you could say the same thing about John, she shared her body with him after a few dates, and in your mind, in your relationship Universe, at that instant he had the right to manage her lingerie wardrobe. That’s YOUR rule , you can’t fault her for not know this “Karmic” rule of the relationship Universe. Instead of focusing on the positive, which is she shared herself with him early on, he focused on her boring underwear. He initially only told us that he told her to wear different lingerie, instead of the boring ones. When PROMPTED, he added in that he complimented her, he had to be prompted to think of the positives about her.
This isn’t about me wanting to make “mommies” feel better. Read my posts in the thread about the woman who wanted her boyfriend to “dominate” her in the bedroom. I agreed w/EMK on that, that she had a good relationship, why was she focusing on THAT ? I commented something along the lines of her sexual entitlement (didn’t think she should have felt entitled) and I noted the irony that she was trying to get a man to be more “dominant” by telling him what to do. So don’t make this about me defending anyone based on gender.
Difference is John didn’t have a good relationship with her, and expected her to “compensate” him by catering to his underwear preferences. Maybe THAT’s what she was picking up on, a sense that he wasn’t happy with the relationship, that he wasn’t accepting her as she was. Which is what we ALL want, not just men. To be accepted as we are. The “concessions” that John made were of a practical matter. If you date someone with kids, concession MUST be made. If you are in a long distance relationship, concessions HAVE to be made. If you are dating a full time student with a full time job, concessions HAVE to be made. To be thinking that this person “owes” you a particular type of underwear, or a particular bedroom kink because of the PRACTICAL considerations that MUST be made in the relationship, does not sound like the basis of a good relationship. Johns request for a concession wasn’t of a practical nature, they were a personal preference, not a neccessity.
As for your assertions that it doesn’t matter what the THOUGHTS of your sexual partner are, that is nonsense. If you don’t care what is in a persons, heart or mind, then there really isn’t a good basis for the relationship.
BTW, I was a step mother in my first marriage, and I made a lot of practical concessions, but I loved my step son and hubby, and so I did that willingly. I never dreamed of thinking that my hubby (or even when he was my BF) owed me anything for picking up his son at school, or being involved with his Little League. I knew it was a package deal going in. I went in willingly and my reward was getting a mini preview of motherhood, and a wonderful relationship with a great kid, who grew up into a wonderful young man, with whom I’ve had contact with, even during my second marriage. I even got a mini preview of grand-parenting, since I have met both of my step sons children.
I still say, single parents will be happier with other single parents, and I was probably some sort of exception. But if a single non-parent gets involved with a single parent, understand from the beginning, that for practical matters, concessions will have to be made. Either go in willingly, or not at all. If you are expecting some sort of sexual concession in return, then I doubt that you are conceding to the “mommy” wiliingly, and it would be best to move on.
I said . . .
@Sparkling #82
…but if I think there’s a good chance someone cute will be viewing and/or removing my undies, I ditch the big boring ones, and go for the cute little ones.
and you replied . . .
I doubt this particular mom was having a one-night stand sex with John.
Where in hells bells did I say anything about having a ONS ????????
If I’m dating a guy, and I think “Tonight might be the night” then I dress from the skin out as you suggest. Now dressing from the skin out as you suggest is indicative of ONS ! Please, feel free to offer your opinion on what I say, but please, no more of your advice, don’t want it, especially since you make such HUGE OUTRAGEOUS assumptions (like I’m some ONS Jezebel) about me based on NOTHING.
Also, if you have read EMK’s “Why he disappeared” and “rounding the bases”, viewing undies doesn’t necessarily mean full on sex. And it certainly doesn’t mean a ONS either.
I don’t do ONS, and I don’t appreciate you implying that I do.
Ruby says
Karmic
““When a relationship descends into “I did x, y, and z for you, now you have to do x for me”, it’s not a good situation.” How do you know it DESCENDED to that?”
John says it. Repeatedly.
While John’s ex sounds a bit more uptight than some, the things he complained about are fairly typical for the single and divorced mothers i know. Actually, they weren’t uncommon for one divorced father I dated. It also depends on how difficult and demanding the kids themselves are, and if the relationship with the ex-spouse is strained, that adds yet another level of difficulty to the situation. John didn’t like it, so he moved on, as was his right.
”¨However, there are men out there who wouldn’t have been fazed by the ex’s underwear preferences, or her kids interrupting dates to text, or any of the other issues that bothered him. Or they might not have been entirely happy with every aspect of the situation, but they could accept it. That’s why EMK advised the OP to “choose men who ‘get’ what you’re going through.”
“Then when you, in all fairness, couldn’t blame John anymore, you certainly still couldn’t fault the woman (careful, your feminist is showing) – you then blamed it their collective incompatible priorities…over UNDERWEAR??”
And if you can’t fault the man, I guess that makes you anti-feminist. But lack of compatibility isn’t about blame. Especially since the ex herself isn’t here asking for advice.
Sparkling Emerald says
IRT John 90
“constant interrupting phone calls and texts (the kids were 12 and 14) when they were at their Dads if we went to dinner or the movies.”
————————
I think this is the BIGGER issue, kids should not be constantly calling mom when they are with their dad. To me, that IS a big red flag. Dad s/b supervising/interacting with the kids, and Mom should turn her cell phone OFF on a date. The co-parenting arrangement doesn’t sound good here.
Goldie says
Re texting kids, my 17yo used to do that a lot. We’d be hiking on a Sunday morning and out of the blue I’d get the text “I need contact lenses” – dude, it’s Sunday morning and I am out in the woods!! Finally, bf complained. I talked to them both, and the compromise we all came to was, on the days that I am at my bf’s place, I check my texts a few times a day and may reply if I have the time, or I may not. I will however answer a call immediately, or call back immediately if I miss it. I told my son to call me (not text) if there is ever an emergency. (Hasn’t happened so far.) I assume any grown man should be okay with his date taking an emergency call from her family? Though after reading through the whole underwear discussion, I’m not sure what to think. It’s just underwear, people! No reason to blow it out of proportion (seeing as it is already large enough, lol)
Sparkling Emerald says
Goldie 107 –
My concern is that the kids are WITH their Dad, and they are texting Mom. Seems to me something is off. Dad should be supervising/interacting with his children when they are with him. Any “emergency” should be handled by Dad.
Of course, if a true emergency comes up, and she gets a frantic text from DAD, saying meet me at the hospital, one of the kids got into a serious bike accident, then OF COURSE, that a valid interruption of Mom’s time.
But it sounds like there was just a lot of pestering by the kids, not constant “emergency calls” and to me, that is indicative of unresolved divorce/co-parenting issues.
I don’t know all of the facts here, and she isn’t on this blog to explain, but to me, that is a bigger issue that is not going to be solved in the bedroom.
Helen says
People… it’s just one poor guy’s comment and one poor woman’s response. John’s viewpoint is not indicative of how all men think and speak; nor is the woman’s behavior indicative of how all mothers behave. There is no need to get into a scuffle over it.
Back to the original point of the entry: “Are my kids keeping me from finding love?” It seems obvious that the answer can be no, as long as the single parent in question, whether a woman or a man, compartmentalizes a bit. There is parent mode and then there is romantic relationship mode. For them to be constantly blended, one interrupting the other, can be jarring for the prospective partner. I think one can still be a good and caring parent without having to be interrupted all the time by kid-related things when it comes to building a romantic relationship. It’s hard, but it can be done.
Karmic Equation says
@Sparkling
Ummm…you need to re-read the ONS thing. While I was replying to you, it was NOT about YOU. My point was that the woman didn’t “happen to meet John” while on an errand in her serviceable underwear and impulsively decided to go home with him. She scheduled a date–she’s a mom–she HAS to schedule things…and having ALREADY had sex with John–not sure about you–but once I’ve had sex with a guy and a go out on a subsequent date, I assume that sex is on the agenda and will dress accordingly.
With the “you don’t know me” complaint. It’s ok for you to jump to conclusions and give YOUR opinion and advice but not for others? How come you’re so special? I’ve read many of your posts…somehow, you’ve stretched “being receptive to a man’s ideas on lingerie” to “letting him manage your wardrobe” — you read a few pages from a book and denounce the whole book because it’s about “picky men” — when a man says a woman’s underwear is boring, you leap to the conclusion he’s not valuing her — you read a sentence about interruptions during a date and assume that there are co-parenting issues. Got it. It’s only ok for you to give unsolicited advice and opinions.
Except for Evan’s posts, all other advice and opinions are unsolicited.
Ruby,
I know I come across as hard on women and not compassionate. There’s a reason for that. It’s NOT because I’m anti-feminist, but because I think women have MORE POWER and INFLUENCE over how a relationship progresses (or not) than she’s willing to admit to. If a woman takes responsibility for every feeling and interaction she has with a man in the early stages of a relationship, she has the POWER to “manage” that relationship into something meaningful and longt-term. Chalking up a failed relationship to “incompatibility” is just letting onself off the hook and abdicating her over the relationship.
If you read Rachel Greenwald’s Have Him at Hello book, one insight she gave is that men take special notice of annoying things about a woman in the initial stages of dating. Once she does ONE annoying thing and he forms an opinion about it (e.g., she’s bossy, she’s uptight, she’s selfish, yada yada), he looks for OTHER signs to confirm that opinion.
So, with the mommies-don’t-wear-thongs woman, it’s more than likely that particular way she has of shutting down a discussion is her communication style, and this just added to/confirmed his opinion that she’s close-minded/uptight, whatever. If she ISN’T uptight or close-minded and she recognizes that she has a communication-style issue, she can then MODIFY it. While John may have indeed been incompatible with her, SHE should have been the one to decide that and ended it when she recognized that incompatibility. She shouldn’t have ceded that power to John simply because she was unaware that her communication style was off putting.
Karmic Equation says
@marymary
The Hanky Panky thongs are absolutely the most comfortable thongs I have ever worn. Thanks so much for the fashion tip!
I don’t like their boyshorts, though. Too much material, even with the lace along all the edges.
@JustMe
Where do you get your cheekies?
Britney R says
There’s no doubt that some men will resist entering into a new committed relationship if there are kids that pre-exist by a different father. Some guys just want to put their genetic stamp on things otherwise they may feel that they can’t assert any parental authority into the relationship, especially if the biological dad is still around. Having said that, a new potential partner’s offspring may be an added attraction for a variety of reasons including where the other partner has a child (or children) and sees it as an opportunity for peer integration and thereby help to overcome any loneliness that their kids may be experiencing.
I’m just saying that it can be a dual edged sword depending upon the individuals in question, how they view children and what they’re wanting to get out of the relationship.
JustMe says
Karmic @ 111
I get almost all of mine at Victoria’s Secret. A couple of times a year, they have a 7 for $25.00. I get them during the sale.
Karmic Equation says
Thanks, JustMe. I’ll have to keep my eye out for when they go on sale.
Al says
I’m laughing inwardly about Lori’s comment. Sure, the SMART divorced men in their 40’s who don’t want more kids understand that they should probably avoid 30 something yr old women who will be wanting to start families of their own soon. However, look around at how many men aren’t thinking with their big heads regarding this matter. Most men set their age preference several years below their own, many as far down as ten to twenty yrs younger.
My brother is one who falls into this trap repeatedly. He’s a very intelligent man normally, but he likes those younger ladies and refuses to change his pattern. Inevitably, the cute young thing he’s dating begins to want children and he bolts. Then it’s off to find the next younger woman. I keep waiting for him to learn.
Sadly, my own dating experience has shown me that he is far from the only man with this problem. When I look for my peers in the mid 40’s to early 50’s online, I continually see their age cut off set at 35. I seriously doubt that ALL of those men are looking to start over again with new babies, but there you have it. They want what they want regardless of the future consequences.
I’m going to hold out for one of the smart ones. 😉
4reality says
The few dates I have been on since single in the last year all have been with women close to my age with children. The money was not a problem because everyone has obligations to their own children and Ex’s and that is generally understood. Not a big deal. I wouldn’t think of dating a woman without a family because they tend be entitled and selfish because they have never had to live for someone else, it’s all about them. No mystery there. And vice versa. Some of the women in this post act like if you’re just dating and you’re intimate that the man is “using” you. That works both ways. If you’re a woman and don’t have needs no man will stick around very long. Operative word being Man. Call it what you want , friends with benefits as opposed to just friends? Well I haven’t heard of enemies with benefits!!!! Ladies the guy will either be gay or asexual if he isn’t trying anything sexual with you, if you two are monogamous. I find more women are the aggressors these days. The men are always portrayed as a feral dog so he can get some sex by certain groups of women. What about you ladies? A healthy relationship is not a carrot and a stick(sex), it is suppose to be mutual respect right? You all need it as bad as we do. If you are a decent looking man who takes care of himself and works there are more than enough women to date. Right ladies. And if you’re a man and fat and out of shape and jobless then get off your asses and get a job and get to gym. Once you look half way decent and have a little money Then you will have more dates than you can handle. There are tons of beautiful single mothers out there that would like to date an adult man, a chivalrous adult man! Not some porn addicted entitled little pansy. One other point, single mothers typically know how to treat a man and on average tend to be much less selfish…when they have time. So children are a plus ladies.
Insidious_Sid says
Here is the problem I have with single mothers, and I am a *single father*. When she lives with me for two years, who gets to pay *step parent child support* for the *other* person’s child? Who pays 95% of child support? Men do. Because, men usually bring more bacon to the table. Also, I won’t ever be able to work less and make less any time soon. But, women change their career plans all the time – if she has a wealthy new boyfriend she could instantly cut her hours in half. Guess what? Mr “Step-daddy-child-support” gets a recalculation letter in the mail – his support payments for that other man’s kids just doubled. Really fair to him and his biological children, right? Sorry, I inform all single men (with kids or not) about this new step-parent child support game. Why should I pay for *their* kids for the “privilege” of living with her for a couple of years? Sorry ladies. Just not worth the risk for me.
Sarah says
This is absolutely the answer I was looking for. I’m dating a younger guy and he is not sure if he wants kids. I need to date guys my own age who are SURE they do not want kids.
Dennis says
Hey,
Thanks so much for sharing this. I think it can be so difficult to find a balance between a family life and a social life, especially when you are single. I agree with Evan in that it is important to remember that you are not alone in this! Some advice would be to consider how you can allocate your time for dating today.
Best,
Dennis
Becca says
The whole it is a bad relationship if there is tat for tat. I think the point is that while there shouldn’t be a running tally if one person is doing all the sacrifices in a relationship and then another person is not doing any or enough to show appreciation than its fair to be like what is in it for me? What are you bringing to the table.
I dated a single Dad who had a busy job. He was teacher so when summer was off I had told him I wanted him to promise we would have quality time.
He then made excuses during summer.
The kicker was well I have to do my errands this weekend I don’t have my kid or even next week so my time with kid as quality. He beat me to the break up once I told him I didn’t understand. Lol In his mind it made us incompatible in my mind. In my mind it Made him a horrible potential life partner!
If he could not be a great dad and a great boyfriend when he wasn’t working……And with part time child.
It did occur to me what is in this for me no thanks.
Kids are a blessing. For the right guy a caring considerate partner I would be willing to make those sacrifices.
becca says
Personally I don’t think it is ridiculous at all for a man to want his woman to wear something sexy. Men are visual and it is a normal want.
A woman who says mom’s don’t wear sexy things imo for most men displays an attitude that would make them a lousy spouse. It’s one of men’s biggest fear that they marry a woman and she stops being his sexy partner. And that attitude may be why she is a single parent.
Concessions do get made when your are with single parents. But these concessions only get made if you think the person is going to be a great partner for you and only care about themselves.
i agree for the most part John should do his stuff with his friends on weekends he is not with her. But if the only time he can do something with friends is that weekend well her attitude is pretty darn terrible and selfish displaying that the only person’s whose needs matter is hers and maybe her kids.
I like kids and I want a family so Dating someone with a kid is not necessarily a deal breaker. Even if it means less time. And hey I want you to be a good Dad. But the second it is clear that you think being a Dad gives you a free pass to be lousy partner…..
In dating both parties should be attempting to show the other they will be a good partner.