Are You Trying to Date Out of Your League? Probably.

 

Whether you’ve ever labeled someone a “10” or are well-versed in the concept of “sexual market value” doesn’t matter. It may be crude and it may be un-PC, but according to a study cited in a recent Atlantic article, leagues DO seem to exist.

The study, conducted with the help of an online dating site and over 186,000 users, points out what should seem obvious to anyone with a modicum of self-awareness:

“Three-quarters, or more, of people are dating aspirationally…and users of online-dating sites spend most of their time trying to contact people “out of their league.”

Most online-dating users tend to message people exactly 25 percent more desirable than they are.

So when you make the pithy observation that every guy you write to doesn’t write back, while you ignore every loser who dares write to you, you’re merely codifying what long-time observers already suspected but never measured until now.

“Most online-dating users tend to message people exactly 25 percent more desirable than they are.” 

Sorry if you find that statement offensive.

“Who’s to say what’s “desirable?” Different people have different tastes! How dare you make value judgments like this?”

Alas, this is no value judgment. It’s pure economics and supply/demand.

“Your specific desirability rank would have been generated by two figures: whether other desirable people contacted you, and whether other desirable people responded when you contacted them. If you contacted a much less desirable person, their desirability score would rise; if they contacted you and you replied, then your score would fall.”

The piece further goes on to outline other unfortunate things you’d suspect if you’ve  ever dated online:

  • Men initiate 80% of first emails. Women only write back to less than 20%.
  • White men and Asian women are consistently more desired than other users, while black women rank anomalously lower.
  • Men’s desirability peaks at age 50. But women’s desirability starts high at age 18 and falls throughout their lifespan.
  • Almost no one messages users less desirable than they are.
  • Young, attractive women in urban areas have a completely different online dating experience than the rest of us. The most popular individual, a 30-year-old woman living in New York, received 1504 messages, the “equivalent to one message every 30 min, day and night, for the entire month.”

Your thoughts, below, are greatly appreciated.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    No Name To Give

    Don’t hate the player. Hate the game.

  2. 2
    Emily, the original

    Men’s desirability peaks at age 50.

    In terms of his ability to support a family, yes. But in terms of raw, physical sex appeal, it’s about 25 to 35, depending on the man.

    1. 2.1
      Sandra

      I agree.  But I also think it can be interpreted that at 50 men have the widest pool of available women.  Not necessarily women they want or who want them, but in general.

    2. 2.2
      Yet Another Guy

      @Emily

      The outcome from my age shaving experiments demonstrated that 50 is in fact a magical age to be a man on a dating site.   At that age, a man who has status and has taken care of himself has a huge dating age range, from twenty-something to late-sixty something.  I did nothing to my profile except reduce my age to 50 on OKCupid.  Women as young as twenty-five were responding to my messages and a lot of older women were hitting on me.  It was both crazy and sad because all of that attention vanished when I changed the age stated on my profile back to my chronological age.   Every year beyond age 50 reduces the size of the pool of women a man’s junior on OKCupid.  When a man passes age 55, he might as well lie if he still looks good for his age because he then becomes one of the youngest members of a much older cohort.  On OKCupid, women who have been married and have children tend to set the upper bound of their age range to 55 when they are between age 43 and age 45 and keep it there until they turn 56, pretty much ensuring that any fifty-something man over the age of 55 is mostly going to be seen by women his senior.

    3. 2.3
      Scooter

      Lol.. I just don’t think this is something that can be generalized, because there are waaaay too many outliers for it to “fit”

      I just finished a five-month relationship with a woman who is better looking at 43, than most younger women I see on-campus.  And when I say “better-looking”, I mean that she is the type who will have hordes of men matching with her, and messaging, on any given dating app.

      And yes, I also mean that in-terms of appearance, she is out-of-my-league.  No question.  (However,that’s not why we broke-up).

       

    4. 2.4
      anon

      Did a 50 year old man pay for this study? Seems so, juxtaposed to the age 18 benchmark for women.  Old men actually repel most young women.  I mean, jeez.  At 50, many men are paying an ex wife and child support in arrears, and set in their ways with technology and fashion (laggards, not pioneers- think dad jeans and goatees).  Many are using a cpap machine for sleep apnea, are 20 years past their peak physical and sexual maximum, with increased risk of heart disease, prostate and erectile dysfunction issues. You get the picture….

      1. 2.4.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @anon

        However, there are also fifty-something men like me who are muscular, younger looking models who also happen to be technology experts (I was a computer scientist long before the smart phone was created, which a little more than a fusion of computer and spread-spectrum digital communications technology).  I had a second date last Saturday with a woman I met last Wednesday.  She told me how she described me to her girlfriends on a girl’s night out on Friday; namely, tall, built, and handsome (she lost in a conversation about who had the worst week).  That is not am image that comes to mind when one thinks fifty-something man.

        The reality is that people age at different rates and there are people like me who hit the genetic lottery (I have a full head of hair with no significant gray at age 57).  That is how a woman can look better at 43 than most of the women Scooter sees on campus.  Forty, fifty, and even some sixty-something men and women who look good for their age have no trouble getting dates with younger, often much younger people.

        As far as to the use of CPAP machines, one of the largest groups of users of this technology are college and professional football players due to neck size, a physical feature that makes a person prone to obstructive sleep apnea (OSA). These men are physically fit athletes, often in their twenties and thirties.  This problem became big news when Reggie White’s death was linked to untreated OSA.  All one needs to do is Google “obstructive sleep apnea NFL.”

         

    5. 2.5
      XXX

      Hmmmm. I think this is more reflective of a larger cohort of older divorced or widowed women pursuing age appropriate men. If these women pursued younger lovers much like their male peers, then yeah, male desirability would skew younger.

      1. 2.5.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @XXX

        Actually, women start to be guilty of the same age bias practices of which they accuse men when they reach their fifties and the skew younger becomes even more pronounced when women hit their sixties.  It is not uncommon for fifty and sixty-something women to have age ranges that span their age minus twenty-plus years to their age at most.

  3. 3
    mgm531

    “Men initiate 80% of first emails. Women only write back to less than 20%.”

    That right there…all you need to know about the difference between what men experience with online dating and what women experience.

  4. 4
    Noone45

    Oh goddamnit, now I’m gonna have to date morbidly obese, toothless men with no job because science? 😂

    1. 4.1
      No Name To Give

      No, you can find skinny, toothless men with no job. For some reason they like us fat chicks. I guess if you’re an overweight female, though, that’s what you deserve. So I’ve been told. 😉😉😉

      1. 4.1.1
        Noone45

        Eh, i’m just overweight these days (although I never got to morbidly obese. Highest weight was 215 at 5’7), thanks to finally treating the ADHD lol. In all seriousness, people aren’t reading the linked article well. I don’t think Evan has completely captured what this research is saying. There are a few paragraphs toward the bottom that indicate the patterns they were seeing were dependent on the site they were using. The researchers admit they would likely see a different pattern if they were using another site. That’s not to completely dismiss what’s being said here, rather I’m putting it in context. Different groups value different things. If you went to emodeathgurldate or something, you’d have a much different pecking order.

        Sure, maybe women do age out early. Who cares? Either way, most people end up marrying someone close to them in age. It doesn’t matter what people say is attractive or who they message if they don’t actually try to pursue it seriously. People say all sorts of BS, but it’s what they do that really matters. As for it being settling, who gives a shit? If people are happy, who cares?

        People understandably have anxiety about dating, but I don’t think “gaming the system” is the way to fix their problem. Seems to be something suggested often around here. What are people going to do? Lipo everything off, get plastic surgery, change everything about their personality, act like someone they aren’t? I don’t think that’s the way out. People need to accept themselves. Change what you can, but you have to be ok with who you are. At the end of the day, one of the big problems I see with people who are dating is they don’t have a goal. It’s ok if you don’t have an outcome in mind if you are just casual, but if you really do want a serious relationship, you should probably write down what you want in a partner, what your deal-breakers are, etc and stop worrying about where you are in the pecking order as it is out of your control. Perhaps one of the sadder facts of existence is so much of what directs your life outcome is completely out of your control lol.

        Nothing after the first sentence was directed at you No Name. Those thoughts just came to mind 🙂 .

    2. 4.2
      mgm531

      Not quite sure where you got that impression, but hey, to each their own I guess.

      1. 4.2.1
        Noone45

        It’s an obvious joke.

        1. No Name To Give

          Well most of it is. I’m a potato, so I only deserve toothless, jobless men.

    3. 4.3
      Scooter

      Uh oh.. step carefully in any response, or bear the wrath of “homely” Noone45.

      1. 4.3.1
        No Name To Give

        Pffft. I’m a potato. That’s why I talk about dating instead of dating.

  5. 5
    shaukat

    I’m sorry, but the study hardly documents the existence of leagues in the real world in any substantive fashion (not saying leagues don’t exist, just that they are not adequately captured here). The dating site used employs a similar algorithm as tinder when measuring desirability, i.e, messages and responses from users who are rated as desirable based on their level of responses and messages. However, since men send 80% of messages and women respond to 20%, it follows that average women will have their value artificially propped up as a result of such dynamics (depending of course on the distribution of the emails men send).

    I mean, the fact that Noone45 can get laid off these apps just demonstrates my point;)

    1. 5.1
      Emily, the original

      Shaukat,

      However, since men send 80% of messages and women respond to 20%, it follows that average women will have their value artificially propped up as a result of such dynamics (depending of course on the distribution of the emails men send).

      You bring this topic up a lot, so I’m going to assume it annoys you, but your irritation is misplaced. Be angry at men for over contacting these women you find average. Start a movement. I’m serious. I mean … the so-called average woman isn’t going to respond to all her messages, “I’m far too average to get this much attention. You can move on.” She’s going to lap it up. Wouldn’t you?

      1. 5.1.1
        Tron Swanson

        Emily,

        Wow, I really hope you’re being sarcastic. It’s bad enough that you’re pretending that getting a ton of attention is a problem (as opposed to an incredible advantage), but blaming that “problem” on men? I’d love to know how we’re supposed to correct this epidemic of “over contacting”. Are all men supposed to get together and discuss which women each of us will pay attention to?

        My time is valuable, but, if women wanted to present me with endless options…well, I’d gladly give some of it up…

      2. 5.1.2
        shaukat

        @Emily,

        Ha, I have no interest in starting a ‘movement’ on this topic, and no, I don’t particularly find the phenomenon annoying. I was just pointing to a limitation in this study. And I actually agree with you, men are to blame for sending countless messages that aren’t well thought out . One aspect of the online platform is that it completely eliminates approach anxiety, which has led to the commodification of dating in many respects. This can be a good thing, especially for those who are introverted or shy, but not if it discourages self-improvement and creates false confidence and expectations–which it all too often does.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @shaukat

          One aspect of the online platform is that it completely eliminates approach anxiety

          I believe the problem is larger than just the elimination of approach anxiety.  The 10,000 pound gorilla in the closet is that nearly 100% of the women on dating sites tend to focus their attention on the top 20% of the men on dating sites to the detriment of the other 80%.  This focus results in the other 80% of men being so desperate for a response that they throw caution to the wind and start indiscriminate cut and past campaigns.

        2. Emily O

          Shaukat,

          I’m going to propose something “radical” here: The whole idea of leagues is sort of bullshit, but you have to meet organically, in person, and not be shuffling through pictures like you are picking out a car. Genuine chemistry and connection bypass a lot of the superficial stuff — appearance, social status, earning potential — unless someone is filtering for those things first. Now, of course, once you no longer have a posse to cruise with every Friday night, meeting people organically becomes more difficult. Thus the conundrum.

  6. 6
    Maria

    How many procent of 20-30’s ladies would love dating a 50 years old white male and WHY ? Are really the average white males in their 40’s-50’s better looking than the females in this age group ? Or are they just doing financially better ? Is this the reason ?

    The problem is that after motherhood there are changes that occur in most women’s bodies and instead of accepting them,  this society tells us to turn to esthetic surgery 🙂

    When the first man would go through birth, HOW happy would he feel to be sent to estethic surgery just to fit in the image that our consummerist society created  ?

    There are ways to educate our tastes, but most people don’t even think this is possible….I’m sure in the future we will find out more technics of how to manipulate more our subconscient attraction so that we can attract the right people….

    1. 6.1
      Scooter

      Maria
      How many procent of 20-30’s ladies would love dating a 50 years old white male and WHY ? Are really the average white males in their 40’s-50’s better looking than the females in this age group ? Or are they just doing financially better ? Is this the reason ?
      The problem is that after motherhood there are changes that occur in most women’s bodies and instead of accepting them,  this society tells us to turn to esthetic surgery 🙂
      When the first man would go through birth, HOW happy would he feel to be sent to estethic surgery just to fit in the image that our consummerist society created  ?
      There are ways to educate our tastes, but most people don’t even think this is possible….I’m sure in the future we will find out more technics of how to manipulate more our subconscient attraction so that we can attract the right people….

      Yes, motherhood can change a body, but plenty of women bounce-back to pre-motherhood form. That is a controllable issue.

      To me, it sounds as if you are upset that men don’t prefer mothers? Or larger women?  Well, just keep in-mind that women are just as ruthless when it comes to certain characteristics such as earning-power and (definitely) height. In fact, lack of height irrationally invalidates everything else, for too many women.

      Furthermore, we all know that women are in-control of the dating game; they choose, and men have to do most of the work to be chosen.

      Given the above premises, I think it’s perfectly fine for men to have a preference for younger women, even 20+ years younger.  Why not?  Since women date-up based on “superficial” characteristics, some of which are completely uncontrollable, they “marketize” men according to those traits.  So, why can’t men do the same thing once they achieve a certain status, and “trade-in” for a better model, once hitting 50?
      I’m not “for” what is written above, but I get it. There is no fairness, or nobility, in the current dating system.

      1. 6.1.1
        Marika

        Scooter

        If you feel there is not enough fairness or nobility in current dating, why not encourage more of it, rather than less?

        Is this an eye for an eye? You don’t like that some women care about height (certainly not all, I’m a tall woman who doesn’t care at all about height and have dated mostly average-below average height men) – so your solution is to tell men to care about something equally as shallow? And you take it even further, i.e., 20+ years is a MASSIVE age difference.

        Where does that get us and where does it end?

        Ignore the women obsessed with height. Find one who isn’t. I promise we exist. And in return, perhaps ensure that you aren’t hung up on some shallow thing (like age) that in no way will translate to relationship success (in fact, research shows the most successful relationships are between people close in age, so encouraging a 20+ year age difference is not a great idea).

        Also, given you’ve never had a baby, I’m not sure you can comment on how easy it is for a woman to bounce back to her pre-baby body.

        1. Scooter

          Hi Marika! Sorry for the late response. (I don’t come here too often)

          If you feel there is not enough fairness or nobility in current dating, why not encourage more of it, rather than less?

          I really do!  However, most women simply don’t care. For them, it’s a matter of hitting certain metrics before a guy even gets a response.  And height is the most important metric, and seems to override anything else, for too many women.

          Is this an eye for an eye? You don’t like that some women care about height (certainly not all, I’m a tall woman who doesn’t care at all about height and have dated mostly average-below average height men) – so your solution is to tell men to care about something equally as shallow? And you take it even further, i.e., 20+ years is a MASSIVE age difference.

          Marika, you are a very rare woman in that you are tall, and don’t care about a prospect’s height.  I just.. it blows my mind that you don’t realize this.  And the problem from my end becomes a huge numbers game: if I were to go out IRL (and I do) and try to hit it up with women, to garner interest and a date, I would have to go through so many to get one. I can’t put a number on it, but if I were to do so, I would say around 30 women to get one positive response. Even then, that’s just to get my foot in-the-door!

          Furthermore, I am vehemently disagree with you concerning age difference. Of course a 20+ year age difference is disturbing on the lower end of range (e.g. a 20-year old with a 40+ year old).  However, a 30+ woman with a 50+ man?  I don’t see an issue with it. I know a couple that is happily together, and has been for five years.  The woman is in her late 40s and the man just turned 30.  They are simply made for one-another, and are madly in-love. Now, there are special details, namely that the woman is very young-looking for her age, and has a playful, “young” personality, and the guy is an “old soul”.
          If the above couple conformed to societal norms, they never would have found happiness.  If women conform to height-based taboo, and use it as their primary criterion irrespective of any other quality, how is it any better?
          (As stated in another thread, sexual preference is excluded from this, because it’s such a personal and innate force. However, many women choose based on height now because they may find a man unappealing, but simply because of the consequences resultant of the taboo)

          Ignore the women obsessed with height. Find one who isn’t. I promise we exist. And in return, perhaps ensure that you aren’t hung up on some shallow thing (like age) that in no way will translate to relationship success (in fact, research shows the most successful relationships are between people close in age, so encouraging a 20+ year age difference is not a great idea).

          Well, of course I do ignore such women.  Again, the issue lies in the fact that these women are the vast majority (at least in places I’ve lived).

          And you seem to have missed my point concerning bouncing back to pre-baby body:  Weight is a controllable trait, and excess weight can have detrimental long-term physical (and emotional) consequences.  Male height is an immutable trait that has no tangible advantage in modern society, outside of displaying social status.

          And Marika, I wish I could have met someone like you when I was younger. You’re like the proverbial unicorn.

           

        2. Scooter

          One more thing Marika.. I am not down on women. I realize that humans are largely a product of their environment.  I know that so much of what we like in a partner is dictated by how we grew-up.  I always keep this in-mind. That being said, frustration is a normal reaction. 🙂

          One fact I regret not realizing, earlier in life: guys like me absolutely can’t afford to be complacent, shy, depressed, or undeveloped (as a person).

          I used to be all those things. I don’t blame myself, because a lot of it was due to bad experiences from childhood, and being programmed by society to believe certain things about myself, despite obvious talents I displayed in other areas.   It led to me marrying someone because I essentially thought: “This is the best I can do, and I’ll just have to deal with it.”  What a mistake.. the last two years were a nightmare for me.

          All I can do now is progress with myself.  I am not so shy anymore, and it seems to be working.  Don’t get me wrong: for me, dating is a (&^&ing part-time job, if not more. It takes massive effort.. more-so for me than say a traditionally attractive guy like YAG or EMK, but it is working.

          I am putting myself out there in-hope that other guys in a similar position do not lose hope.  I wish for everyone to find a happy relationship.  Most do not want to be alone, and it’s so important.

        3. Emily, the original

          Scooter,
          And Marika, I wish I could have met someone like you when I was younger. You’re like the proverbial unicorn.
           FWIW, I’m not hung up on height, either. In fact, I prefer men around my height, which is 5’5″. Super tall men look weird when they take off their pants. Long grasshopper legs! 🙂

        4. Scooter

          Emily, the original
          Scooter,
          FWIW, I’m not hung up on height, either. In fact, I prefer men around my height, which is 5’5″. Super tall men look weird when they take off their pants. Long grasshopper legs!

          Hahahaha!

          I found another unicorn?  Wow.  Hmm.. unicorns abound in numbers greater than first thought..

        5. Evan Marc Katz

          The point, Scooter, is that these women are NOT unicorns. My wife’s first husband was short and fat, but he was charismatic and funny. If you’re charismatic and funny, you’ll do well with plenty of women – especially in “real life” as opposed to the internet.

        6. Emily, the original

          Scooter,

          I found another unicorn?  Wow.  Hmm.. unicorns abound in numbers greater than first thought..

          We’re out there. 🙂 All the parts line up if you’re about the same height.  🙂

        7. SparklingEmerald

          Scooter – I 2nd what EMK said, women who will date men under 5’10” are NOT unicorns.  One poster said he did online research and said about 38% of the women want men at least 5’10”.  OK, talk about being a pessimist.  If 38% wanted men at least 5’10” than that means 62% would date men shorter than 5’10”.  Since match didn’t give the option of skipping over height preferences, even THAT figure would be a tad skewed.  I really wonder why a man would focus on the 38% and not the 62%.  Heck I was in my late 50’s when I was in OLD, and I doubt that 62% of the men wanted to date a divorced woman in her late 50’s.  And the small percentage who didn’t rule me out based on age, might have ruled me out for not being their physical type. (Not busty enough, legs not thin enough, didn’t like red heads, etc)   But none of that matters, because very few people are desired by 100% of the opposite sex. It only takes one, and I found my match.  All my major relationships were with men under 5’10”.  I think 5’7″ or 5’8 is the tallest I’ve ever had a long term relationship with.  My ex hubby is either 5’6″ or 5’7″, don’t remember, ‘cuz I didn’t really care. My husband now is either 5″7″ or 8″, not really sure of that either.  I have lot’s of girlfriends who are with men under 5’10”.

          So yes, there are many women who care about superficial things such as height, but there are many who do NOT.  Concentrate on those women.

        8. Emily, the original

          Sparkling Emerald,

          So yes, there are many women who care about superficial things such as height, but there are many who do NOT.  Concentrate on those women.

          Yeah, but he posted somewhere else about how he wants an “attractive” woman, which probably means he doesn’t want to be discriminated against based on height but he discriminates based on appearance. So my compassion for his issue as died.

        9. Noone45

          This is an odd arguement for me.  My father is shorter than my mother. It never occurred to me that women has issues with height until I was much older. They’ve been married almost 40 years now, so apparently being a short Mexican hasn’t hurt dad much lol.

        10. Scooter

          Emily, the original

          Yeah, but he posted somewhere else about how he wants an “attractive” woman, which probably means he doesn’t want to be discriminated against based on height but he discriminates based on appearance. So my compassion for his issue as died.

          Wow.. that’s harsh.  Are you telling me that because I am short, that I don’t deserve an “attractive” woman (which is subjective, anyway)?

          It appears you have some biases of your own.

           

           

        11. Emily the orignial

          Scooter,

          Wow.. that’s harsh.  Are you telling me that because I am short, that I don’t deserve an “attractive” woman (which is subjective, anyway)?

          You deserve a woman who is attractive to you, but there’s a difference between finding someone attractive and feeling a genuine connection when talking with them and filtering first and foremost for the most attractive women out there and then moving down the SMV chart depending on who you can get. I’m not sure which you are doing, but the second kind usually has more to do with ego than anything else.

        12. Scooter

          Sparkling Emerald: Scooter – I 2nd what EMK said, women who will date men under 5’10” are NOT unicorns.  One poster said he did online research and said about 38% of the women want men at least 5’10”.  OK, talk about being a pessimist.

          I’m shocked by both you and EMK for using ridiculous anecdotal “research” or observation to try and counter the mounds of evidence (sociological and psychological studies included) to the contrary.

          EMK talks about how his wife’s ex-husband was short and fat, and still had game because he is “funny”.

          Evan.. he lost her for whatever reason, and she found you.  You have “All-American” looks.  I know you had to “work” for it, but still, you should (after all these years of being a dating coach) have the ability to empathize, and realize that a short fat guy is going to have a MUCH harder time of “it”, than you, no matter how funny.

          And you do have that ability, Evan:

          Are Height Requirements Still Keeping You From Finding Love?

          SE, you bring up ONE individual’s cursory research that says 38% choose men over 5’10, and then erroneously assume the rest will date any guy under 5’10, no matter how far under?

          SE, you have a bad bad habit of jumping to conclusions based on.. “Well he said.. well she said.. well I saw this once..”  I’m just putting it out there after having observed your posts over the years.  No. Just no. If nothing else, just my experiences as a short guy completely override your 2nd-hand views.   And if you want to dismiss my views, just look at EMKs article listed above (which has far better statistical backing than the guy you cite for the “38%”), and scroll to this part:

          An article on Jezebel discusses a report from the Atlantic that illustrates that the average height differential between 4600 married American couples was six inches and that the wife was taller in 3.8% of couples. However, “when the author randomized the information as well to see what would come up by chance, he found something surprising: left to chance, the wives were taller in 7.8 percent of couples— twice as many as before. Meaning, people are choosing to maintain this six inches of difference by going out of their way to pair up according to this distinction.”
          This is a rigid and arbitrary preference – most noteworthy, to me, in short and tall women.

          SE, I could go on and on citing studies and polls. It’s not really an argument for anyone who chooses to look.  I wholeheartedly accept there are women who don’t mind dating shorter men.  They are just in the minority.  How small is that minority?  I don’t know, and literature varies with that figure, but I am convinced it’s not near 49% of women.  That’s all I am trying to convey.

          Emily the orignial
          Scooter,
          Wow.. that’s harsh.  Are you telling me that because I am short, that I don’t deserve an “attractive” woman (which is subjective, anyway)?
          You deserve a woman who is attractive to you, but there’s a difference between finding someone attractive and feeling a genuine connection when talking with them and filtering first and foremost for the most attractive women out there and then moving down the SMV chart depending on who you can get. I’m not sure which you are doing, but the second kind usually has more to do with ego than anything else.

          Everyone has an ego. I don’t ever treat women poorly, even when they do so, to me.  Even when I get harshly rejected. Why? Because I have values, and I have my own internal code. If I break it.. even if no one else knows, I know. And that is what counts, to me.

          However, that doesn’t mean that I should actively go after women to whom I have little attraction, “just because”.  I am fit. I have a decent face (or I doubt I would receive matches from women who, IMO, do have attractive faces), and I have most, if not all-else in-place.  So why on earth should I not go after someone I find physically attractive?  (Key: “I find”) What are you thinking, that I am chasing runway models? No!  But fit to somewhat fit, with a nice face? Yes! Why not?

          Marika
          Scooter 
          I think Emily meant the woman you may have rejected for not being attractive enough probably feels the way you do for being rejected for not being tall enough.

          Okay, fair enough.  I get that! Thank you.

          I do have sympathy for short guys, but no more than I have for all the other groups who are discriminated against in dating  (fat people, poor people, single parents, women over 40, men over 55, to name just a few). I don’t think being a short man puts you in a special disadvantage category. Like I said before, we all have our stuff.

          Well, I tried to make my point: for too many women it’s a hard-core requirement.  No one, other than some of the men here, seem to grasp that. Men tend not to have hard-core requirements with regards to boob-size, socioeconomic status etc.. the same way women do with height. That’s the only point I feel is being overlooked, but so-be-it.

          Nevertheless, if you’re going to lump height in with the rest of the above, and given that most women feel free to judge men (harshly) based on height, then you’re only lending credence to my claim that it should be okay for men to openly ask women their weight, as part of the dating process. 😉

          Marika, I do like you, though. Keep bantering with me! 😉

        13. SparklingEmerald

          Emily said:  “Yeah, but he posted somewhere else about how he wants an “attractive” woman, which probably means he doesn’t want to be discriminated against based on height but he discriminates based on appearance. So my compassion for his issue as died.”

          I took his quest for an attractive woman, to mean a woman to whom HE is attracted.  Which I think is what we ALL want.  Of COURSE we want to find our partners attractive and that sort of “discrimination” is unavoidable when looking for a life partner.  Now, if he said “drop dead gorgeous” or “looks like a super model” or “she must be a 10” or listed hair color, cup size and a shapely butt, then I would have no sympathy for him either.   But he simply wants to be attracted to his partner, which is pretty darn near a universal desire for a mate.

           

          I wouldn’t want to be with someone who didn’t find ME attractive.  And most men don’t find me sufficiently attractive for a relationship (but find me sufficiently attractive for casual sex, which I am not interested in at all) but really that doesn’t matter.  SOME men find me VERY attractive, so THOSE are the men I had to choose from.  While there are some universal standards of what constitutes “attractive”, there is still very much of what is “in the eye of the beholder”.   Except for a small subset of people, most people are considered attractive to some.  Finding MUTUAL attraction is a real challenge for many, and then once THAT hurdle has been passed, next up, assessing long term compatibility.  Sometimes I am amazed that men and women couple up at all !!! 🙂

          SCOOTER: I have a question for you.  Has 100% of the women who have ever rejected you, point blank told you that your height was the ONLY reason ?  Or when you are rejected by a woman, do you always assume it is because of your height ?

        14. SparklingEmerald

          Scooter said ”

          EMK talks about how his wife’s ex-husband was short and fat, and still had game because he is “funny”.

          Evan.. he lost her for whatever reason, and she found you.

          WOW, talk about jumping to conclusions.  Her first husband cheated on her, that’s how he “lost” her.  But you just assumed that she dumped him ?  Or did you assume she dumped him for Evan ?

          When I have more time, I will read the rest of your rambling, unhinged tirade, of how I jump to conclusions and respond to some of it.

          All, I, EMK and the rest of us are trying to do, is to let you know that all hope is not lost for short guys.  There ARE women who don’t mind height.  None of us said ALL women don’t mind height, but there are ENOUGH women who like me don’t mind.

          I think you would rather wallow in a “Nobody loves me because I am short” pity party, than actually go out and find a woman who will love you just the way you are.  She’s out there, but you apparently would rather be right than happy.

        15. Noone45

          You know Scooter, you really do need to get over yourself. Rich talk coming from me, but all I see here is “me me me”. You prattle on about what you find attractive and then shade women who don’t find you attractive.  That’s some nasty entitlement there. Not every woman on this planet is going to find you attractive,  that’s life. Women can have whatever hardcore requirements they want irrespective of what you want in life. Hell, I’m open that i’m a woman most people find ugly. I don’t get in comment sections and demand people start preferring women like me. If I did, these people would laugh me out of here. But for some reason, you aren’t getting the flack you should be. No woman you find attractive has to find you attractive. It doesn’t matter if you are fit. This isn’t some Victorian morality contest.

          What you feel is what you feel. I’m not saying you are wrong for feeling hurt, but you can’t hurt other people because you got hurt. That’s not healthy behavior. Your “handicap” isn’t some fatal flaw that will keep you from ever finding love. You act like you have terminal cancer or something. You want a fatal blow for dating? I have an autistic kid. There’s an insurmountable obstacle.  What you need is a therapist,  not a girlfriend. Take a break, get some help, and try again when you feel better. This is just a toxic stew right now.

          And Evan’s wife got divorced cause her ex cheated on her. It has nothing to do with his height.

        16. Emily, the original

          Sparkling Emerald,
          I took his quest for an attractive woman, to mean a woman to whom HE is attracted.  Which I think is what we ALL want.  Of COURSE we want to find our partners attractive and that sort of “discrimination” is unavoidable when looking for a life partner.  Now, if he said “drop dead gorgeous” or “looks like a super model” or “she must be a 10” or listed hair color, cup size and a shapely butt, then I would have no sympathy for him either.   
           That’s pretty much what I responded to him but he was not able to process the comment.
          Except for a small subset of people, most people are considered attractive to some.
          Yes.

          Marika,

          Take with a grain of salt any of the comments refuting my statement that men aren’t that picky about female appearance. Some of the men who post here are. My findings were based on a small sampling size but so are all of the other comments here. My point is … not every man thinks the same way, just like not every woman does.

        17. Scooter

          I’m beginning to wonder if there is a serious reading comprehension issue, with some of you. Okay.. let’s begin.

          Sparkling Emerald: SCOOTER: I have a question for you. Has 100% of the women who have ever rejected you, point blank told you that your height was the ONLY reason ? Or when you are rejected by a woman, do you always assume it is because of your height ?

          Is this a serious question? No! Of course not every woman has said as much, nor do I assume it! However, I have enough anecdotal evidence to support what I am saying. EMK supports what I have said, with statistical backing within his own article. Plus, there are plenty of other studies that support the fact that most women have a height requirement, in their heads.

          What is so hard to understand about the above? I am not lying, not embellishing. Is it fair? No. Is it fact? Yes.

          The only reason I keep responding is because some of you seem to say: “You’re exaggerating, and even if you’re not, please shut-it.” Women here harp on the same ills concerning men, all the time. I am just pointing out that women have their own irrational thought processes in the dating game, and height may be the #1 example.

          Sparkling Emerald: ..find an attractive woman, to mean a woman to whom HE is attracted. Which I think is what we ALL want. Of COURSE we want to find our partners attractive and that sort of “discrimination” is unavoidable when looking for a life partner. Now, if he said “drop dead gorgeous” or “looks like a super model” or “she must be a 10” or listed hair color, cup size and a shapely butt, then I would have no sympathy for him either. But he simply wants to be attracted to his partner, which is pretty darn near a universal desire for a mate.

          THANK YOU Sparkling Emerald for defending me, in this case. It seems as if some want to take my words out-of-context. All I said is I want an attractive woman. How that got twisted into, “Scooter thinks he deserves a 10” is beyond me.

          Sparkling Emerald:I think you would rather wallow in a “Nobody loves me because I am short” pity party, than actually go out and find a woman who will love you just the way you are. She’s out there, but you apparently would rather be right than happy.

          Uhh.. no. Not true. I am made the point about most women having the height requirement, and that’s it. I am not asking for your pity, nor do I need it. I also don’t need your extreme irrational conclusions. However, I will defend myself. I haven’t attacked you or any other woman here, and made comical assertions, as you have with me. Bear that in-mind. Thanks.

          ps- I am dating. I am having fun. That doesn’t erase the reality. Okay?

          Noone45: You know Scooter, you really do need to get over yourself. Rich talk coming from me, but all I see here is “me me me”. You prattle on about what you find attractive and then shade women who don’t find you attractive. That’s some nasty entitlement there. Not every woman on this planet is going to find you attractive, that’s life.

          What are you talking about? Where do I “prattle-on” about what I find attractive in a woman? I’ve made very kind posts, previously, and now I am being attacked. And never have I implied that every woman needs to find me attractive.
          If you can’t come up with a civil argument, without lying, then you are best in keeping silent.
          Sheesh.. make stuff up, much?

          Noone45, you go on to say I am “hurting” other people? WTH are you rambling about?
          Do you have me confused with someone else?
          Either stop making things up, or stop talking.

          Marika: Thanks Scooter, I like you too 🙂

          I’m happy to banter in general…but I’d prefer to drop this topic. I don’t think discussing height over and over gets us anywhere. It doesn’t stop you from feeling short-changed, and it’s certainly not going to stop the women out there you’ve met (who likely aren’t reading this thread) from discriminating on that basis.

          All I would say from a woman’s perspective is, your ongoing focus on height is in no way helpful in the dating world.

          Marika, I get you. I am dating, and I’m carrying myself very well. However, as I stated above, it doesn’t erase the fact that women have this irrational bias. Look at how I am being attacked for just bringing it up! I haven’t insulted anyone, nor have I made assertions about height bias towards the women here. I even have Noone45 flat-out lying.. just lying, about what I have said. Pathetic.

          Anyway, yeah, I get you. I’ll drop it.

        18. Noone45

          “Noone45, you go on to say I am “hurting” other people? WTH are you rambling about?”

          You brought Evan’s wife into the argument and now choose to play stupid. That was a hateful thing to insinuate on your part. You don’t know her and have never met her. I’m on the fence about Evan, but I’m not going to say a word about her. You need to keep opinions about her to yourself. What you said was rude and now you want to pretend you didn’t say it.

          And yes, you kept going on about women’s requirements. You keep calling it superficial. Who are you to call what women prefer superficial? How is it any worse than what you require? How is what you require not superficial? You do realize there are many measures of fitness that are genetically based right? They are as immutable as height. If a woman is broad-chested with thin hips then she’s going to look that way no matter what weight she’s at. There goes that much vaunted waist-hip ratio for a ton of women. In fact, most women are rectangularly shaped with little waist definition according to the research out there. It’s down to their skeletal shape, no amount  of weight loss will change it. I’m going to put my measurements out there just to be fair – 44-32-45, seriously. I’m overweight and still look like that. I did nothing to achieve it. It’s immutable. I’ve looked like that since I was 20. When I was 230 pounds, I looked the same with larger measurements. Not saying it to brag, just using it to illustrate how little fitness influences body shape.

          Furthermore, let’s get into the “deep” stuff – like personality! That’s something you can work on right? Nope, 80% of your personality is down to genetics. Even things like educational acheievement, intelligence, ambition, and musical interests can be influenced heavily by DNA. Something as immutable as height. Now, I could go into some Rawlsian tangent about the concept of desert based on this, but that’s useless. It’s simply me illustrating that much of what women have to deal with is as immutable as a man’s height.  Many of the things you reject others for are out of their control. Yet you feel it’s ok for you to reject others for immutable traits while also stating it’s “superficial” for others to reject you based on their immutable traits. You can’t have this both ways. If it’s ok for you reject others for things things they can’t control, then it’s ok for them to do the same.

          Either way, you are consistently looking for things that confirm your own bias.  YAG brought this up earlier. Nothing we say will change what you want to feel. That’s why you need a therapist. You are locked in a depressive mood and keep looking for things to keep yourself in it. In this case, height is simply a reason to blame others when it might have been something else that led others to reject you. I think I might be doing something similar regarding my son, but I do doubt it. There’s no way for me to truly confirm my bias and there’s really little research about special-needs parents out there. My point here is you are avoiding doing hard work on yourself with your excuse.

          My ADHD meds (Ah immutable traits) are kicking in and I actually want to clean now. I’m bored of this convo and will not respond any further.

        19. Evan Marc Katz

          All I heard was “on the fence about Evan”. Thanks for making my morning.

        20. Tom10

          @ Scooter
          “All I would say from a woman’s perspective is, your ongoing focus on height is in no way helpful in the dating world.”
           
          Except that it is for those women (tall man equals tall babies and all the inherent advantages subsequently bestowed on those children) and…for tall men who unfairly benefit from said focus.
           
          The only people women’s ongoing focus on height is unhelpful in the dating world to is short guys. I.e. you. Hence your vociferous push-back.
           
          ———————
           
          FWIW I think both sides have a point. The percentage of female profiles who state the importance of height is, quite frankly, absurdly high. Probably a third to half of all profiles I see do make at least a passing reference to height: if they don’t outright state “6’0”-or -over only to apply” they usually write something oblique like “I’m 5’10” in heels just in case that’s an issue”, which is code for “I prefer tall guys”.
           
          I think that you’re right that the height issue is, at its core, a status thing wrapped up in post-rationalizations of comfort/preference/security whatever. Rightly or wrongly we afford taller-people higher status in the dating game. There are no inherent real reasons why height should be such an issue these days; they simply want a higher-status guy.
           
          However, as the ladies pointed out women are entitled to have any preferences they want and are entitled to be attracted to anything they want. Trying to shame them from liking what they want won’t achieve anything.
           
          You remind me of the poster Obsidian who sometimes drops by who faces the same issue; the attractive women he wants don’t want him back. But as Emily, the original pointed out you meet plenty of attractive women to date so what’s the problem?
           
          If you met no women, ever, who wanted to date you then your gripes might have some merit. But from your comments this isn’t the case. So you have no grounds to complain.
           
          To me it looks like you’re annoyed with women for discriminating on what grounds suit them, because this doesn’t suit you, however you don’t mind discriminating on what grounds suit you because, well, this does suit you.
           
          If you’re going to argue a point at least retain some logical consistency. You’ll notice that none of the female commenters have tried to convince you to date women you’re not attracted to; they just acknowledge that those are your preferences and leave you to it.
           
          So, equally, women are entitled their preferences; leave them to it.

        21. Scooter

          Tom10
          However, as the ladies pointed out women are entitled to have any preferences they want and are entitled to be attracted to anything they want. Trying to shame them from liking what they want won’t achieve anything.
          Shame them?  Look man.. I don’t know how my words keep getting twisted. I am “pushing back” simply because I am (essentially) being told to “shut-up”.  I’ve stated in another post that it’s all superficial.. height requirement, weight, bust size, etc.. My main points were as follows: 1) For women, height trumps everything else, too often. 2) If women can have a height requirement, and openly talk about it as a way to gauge men, then men should be allowed to do the same regarding women’s physical qualities.  How is that not fair?

          You remind me of the poster Obsidian who sometimes drops by who faces the same issue; the attractive women he wants don’t want him back. But as Emily, the original pointed out you meet plenty of attractive women to date so what’s the problem?
          And you remind me of Noone45: you form inaccurate depictions in your head that are not consistent with what I said.
          Is this not a discussion board?  Yes, I have success, but how is that in any way related to the issue we are discussing?  It doesn’t mitigate the hypocrisies. 
          People here discuss and rail against all sorts of unfairness in the dating game.  Threads have gone on for miles.  Why am I not allowed to respond?  That’s all I am doing, and I have not used the same level of vitriol, or “word-twisting” as others, here.

          If you met no women, ever, who wanted to date you then your gripes might have some merit. But from your comments this isn’t the case. So you have no grounds to complain.
          Tom10.. you’re smarter than this. Really man.. unless I am wrong about you from your previous postings.  You’re essentially acting like SE and Noone45, and saying, “shutup, because although you fall into the category, you have some success, so you can’t talk”.  Is that reasonable?

          If you’re going to argue a point at least retain some logical consistency. You’ll notice that none of the female commenters have tried to convince you to date women you’re not attracted to; they just acknowledge that those are your preferences and leave you to it.
          And if you’re going to form an opinion of me, at least make sure it’s accurate.  I have been logically consistent.  You are being inaccurate at best, and dishonest at worst, concerning what I have said.
           Tom10, please show me where I say women have to be attracted to me, or that any of this is fair?  I am being logically consistent; please see above where I say it’s all unfair.  Thank you.

        22. Scooter

          Noone45
          You brought Evan’s wife into the argument and now choose to play stupid. That was a hateful thing to insinuate on your part. You don’t know her and have never met her. I’m on the fence about Evan, but I’m not going to say a word about her. You need to keep opinions about her to yourself. What you said was rude and now you want to pretend you didn’t say it.
          And?  I never said anything bad about his wife, or EMK.  I said Evan using his wife’s ex as a anecdote does not negate what I have stated, previously! THAT is not an attack.  And Evan brought him up initially,  not me!
          And yes, you kept going on about women’s requirements. You keep calling it superficial. Who are you to call what women prefer superficial? How is it any worse than what you require? How is what you require not superficial?
          Once again, your reading comprehension is called into question. You are ascribing your own meaning to my words. In fact, I have said it’s ALL superficial.  I am just going into a facet of it (women’s height requirement). That’s all. 
           You do realize there are many measures of fitness that are genetically based right? They are as immutable as height. … did nothing to achieve it. It’s immutable. I’ve looked like that since I was 20. When I was 230 pounds, I looked the same with larger measurements. Not saying it to brag, just using it to illustrate how little fitness influences body shape.
          I agree with you, to a point. Body composition is very changeable, and how one looks when fit vs fat is night and day.  There are enough “before and after” pics on the Net, to prove my point. However, I have personal experience with this ; when I was younger, I was fat. Now, I am very fit. 
          Furthermore, let’s get into the “deep” stuff – like personality! That’s something you can work on right? Nope, 80% of your personality is down to genetics. Even things like educational acheievement, intelligence, ambition, and musical interests can be influenced heavily by DNA.
          Look Noone45, intelligence is a complex trait and “we” know little about the genetic AND epigenetic factors that influence it. (Yes, there is a mountain of info, but it’s largely incomplete) Environmental parameters heavily influence intelligence; we do know that much. 
            Many of the things you reject others for are out of their control. Yet you feel it’s ok for you to reject others for immutable traits while also stating it’s “superficial” for others to reject you based on their immutable traits. You can’t have this both ways. If it’s ok for you reject others for things things they can’t control, then it’s ok for them to do the same.
          Once again, as I said in my previous post, you’re lying.  I never said this.  Please show me where I said as much, and I will immediately apologize, and own it.   
          However, I know you better, now. I understand your hostile reaction towards my words, given your circumstance.  Thank you, for ending your post civilly, even if I do not agree with it.

        23. SparklingEmerald

          Thank you Tom10 for your response to Scooter !

        24. Tom10

          @ Scooter
          I am “pushing back” simply because I am (essentially) being told to “shut-up”
           
          We’re not telling you to “shut-up”; we’re calling you out on your hypocrisy: that you think it’s reasonable to criticize women for filtering men according to their preferential attraction triggers; yet being simultaneously guilty of the exact same thing.
           
          “My main points were as follows: 1) For women, height trumps everything else, too often.”
           
          And I accept this point as partially valid. But for a large percentage of women (over 30 it has to be pointed out; younger women are far more vocal on their height preference) height isn’t an issue; they prioritize other characteristics (intelligence/talent/humor etc) as is their wont. You don’t seem to want to accept this point though…
           
          “2) If women can have a height requirement, and openly talk about it as a way to gauge men, then men should be allowed to do the same regarding women’s physical qualities”
           
          And men do. Every day. In every thread. And no-one is saying they shouldn’t be allowed to do so. Women are only too aware what men find attractive; they’re reminded all. the. time. When women question Evan about their requirements (education/income for e.g.) they consistently receive push-back here too.
           
          “Tom10, please show me where I say women have to be attracted to me, or that any of this is fair?  I am being logically consistent; please see above where I say it’s all unfair”
           
          In comment 6.1 you wrote: “There is no fairness, or nobility, in the current dating system”
           
          To be honest I’m actually confused now whether your point is that the system is unfair so you’re entitled to be unfair too, or whether your point is trying to encourage women to stop caring about height? Both points are moot: we all know the system is unfair and no-one change the preferences of others.
           
          Either way, Scooter, all the salient points have been made and we’ve made no progress; no-one has learned anything and no-one has changed their opinions. Feel free to keep commenting about height on this blog but it doesn’t really help either you or anyone else. Peace out.

        25. shaukat

          @Noone,

          Nope, 80% of your personality is down to genetics. Even things like educational acheievement, intelligence, ambition, and musical interests can be influenced heavily by DNA.

          This is highly simplistic and misleading statement. Research and evidence show that while IQ is a heritable trait influenced by genetics, it is also heavily influenced by both the structured and unstructured environment, and the latter play a much larger role than 20% (unless your 80% figure was solely in reference to personality types).

          Also, while body type is genetic (as well as frame, bone size, etc) the difference between a fit and non-fit person can be massive, regardless of genetics. Dropping bodyfat below 15% for a man, for example, impacts how the face looks, and even a bit of muscle becomes noticeable.

          I had to push back on this because your post gives people the impression that self-improvement is futile.

        26. Noone45

          (unless your 80% figure was solely in reference to personality types)

          This is what I said: Nope, 80% of your personality is down to genetics. 

          I was not referring to intelligence in that sentence.

          Also, while body type is genetic (as well as frame, bone size, etc) the difference between a fit and non-fit person can be massive, regardless of genetics. 

          I didn’t state otherwise. I was referring to body shape – despite what people believe, you can’t change the essential shape of your body. You can’t spot tone. You can lose weight and that shape will get smaller, but it will not change. If you had little waist definition when you are simply overweight, you aren’t going to have it at a normal weight either. I’m not saying people shouldn’t try to lose weight, I’m saying they have to accept their body is shaped how it is.

          I had to push back on this because your post gives people the impression that self-improvement is futile.

          I didn’t say anything like that. I’m simply pointing out many things we think are controllable and worth of rejection based on their depth are not things we can entirely control. However, I would argue the majority of people aren’t really interested in self-improvement and it is, in fact, futile for them. Gym owners know this better than I do.

        27. Scooter

          Tom10
          We’re not telling you to “shut-up”; we’re calling you out on your hypocrisy: that you think it’s reasonable to criticize women for filtering men according to their preferential attraction triggers; yet being simultaneously guilty of the exact same thing.
          Huh?  I am calling women out on their hypocrisy in terms of judging based on height, while telling men to “shut-it” about weight (as an example).  C’mon Tom10.. you’re purposely being daft. 

          And I accept this point as partially valid. But for a large percentage of women (over 30 it has to be pointed out; younger women are far more vocal on their height preference) height isn’t an issue; they prioritize other characteristics (intelligence/talent/humor etc) as is their wont. You don’t seem to want to accept this point though…
          Are you sure about this, Tom10?  Please provide a link or two that supports your assertions.  I just did a Google search, and could find zero studies that back your claims, yet found many studies that take into account a wide age range of women, with results that speak against your statement. Of course, my anecdotal evidence, which I admit is not proof, per se, goes completely against what you state. It is rare for me to run into a Match.com profile that has the height preference ruler adjusted to the min and max end of Match.com’s scale, thus indicating the woman couldn’t care less about height.  (I think this is 3’0” to 11’0”)  I include women who are in their early 50s, in my search criteria.
           
          And men do. Every day. In every thread. And no-one is saying they shouldn’t be allowed to do so. Women are only too aware what men find attractive; they’re reminded all. the. time. When women question Evan about their requirements (education/income for e.g.) they consistently receive push-back here too.
           Okay? And.. so what?  Lately, I have only been defending myself, and trying to correct irrational and outright false attributions to my words.   

          In comment 6.1 you wrote: “There is no fairness, or nobility, in the current dating system”

          To be honest I’m actually confused now whether your point is that the system is unfair so you’re entitled to be unfair too, or whether your point is trying to encourage women to stop caring about height? Both points are moot: we all know the system is unfair and no-one change the preferences of others.
          That was exactly my point: there is no fairness, per se. Above, you state women look for more cerebral and erudite qualities past a certain age. Maybe.  Even so, it’s still not a “fair” game, and both sexes are ridiculed and pigeon-holed due to both immutable and controllable qualities.  Most of the time, quality of character has little to do with getting one’s foot in-the-door, and too much of the time, the superficial allows one to go much further than that.
          Once again: it’s all superficial, and if one immutable trait is acceptably used a source of derision, then why are other traits, especially those that are controllable “off limits”?  (Don’t take this to mean that I actually go out and make fun of heavier women, or think it’s acceptable. Quite the opposite.  But it is a fair question)

      2. 6.1.2
        Marika

        Scooter 

        I think Emily meant the woman you may have rejected for not being attractive enough probably feels the way you do for being rejected for not being tall enough.

        I do have sympathy for short guys, but no more than I have for all the other groups who are discriminated against in dating  (fat people, poor people, single parents, women over 40, men over 55, to name just a few). I don’t think being a short man puts you in a special disadvantage category. Like I said before, we all have our stuff.

      3. 6.1.3
        Marika

        Thanks Scooter, I like you too 🙂

        I’m happy to banter in general…but I’d prefer to drop this topic. I don’t think discussing height over and over gets us anywhere. It doesn’t stop you from feeling short-changed, and it’s certainly not going to stop the women out there you’ve met (who likely aren’t reading this thread) from discriminating on that basis.

        All I would say from a woman’s perspective is, your ongoing focus on height is in no way helpful in the dating world. It may be the women in your past’s fault for using it against you, but all you can do is change your mindset about it. You can’t change theirs. I would say this about anything in general (big thighs, past questionable history, age, no car, lack of money, whatever) – the more self-conscious and sensitive a person is about something, the more the date picks up on that and feels uncomfortable.

        And the more confident, self-assured and ‘hey, why would this be an issue’ you are, the more attractive you come across as. I had one guy with no car, who lived 80 km out in the middle of nowhere, little disposable income and basic education levels ‘sell’ himself so confidently that it was almost like I ended up feeling embarrassed for living in the city, with a car and university qualifications!

        I say this as someone who’s not naturally very self-assured (Catholic, big family, tall poppy syndrome country) but am learning the skills from dates like that guy – Just fake it til you make it ;).

        If some chick rules out a lovely guy because of 2 inches of height – her loss, right?!

      4. 6.1.4
        SparklingEmerald

        I’m not “for” what is written above, but I get it. There is no fairness, or nobility, in the current dating system.

        We live in a free country.  Unless you want to live in a country where marriages are arranged by families with total disregard for the bride and groom, then this “unfairness” that you perceive will always exist.

        In our country, couples happen with the consent of BOTH parties, which I think is perfectly fair.  No one should be forced to couple with someone based on EEOC requirements. Also, the notion that women 100% control the dating game is ridiculous.  If a woman “chooses” a man who doesn’t want her, she can not co-erce him into a relationship.  If a man “chooses” a woman who is dis-interested, he can’t co-erce her into sex or a relationship either.  (well I guess he could rape her, but most men won’t do that, and he certainly can’t co-erce a relationship with her).  So what is the “unfairness” you speak of ?  The fact that you can’t co-erce the women you want into what you want ?  Is that the big power that women have over men, the fact the we ALSO have a CHOICE in the matter ?

        I contend that BOTH genders have a right to their preferences, deal breakers etc .  I KNOW that for men, the hour glass figure is a primal trigger.  I know that I do not have the feminine ideal body type, but then again, I am not to far from that metric.  (I describe my figure as a 45-minute glass ) I could boo-hoo until the cows come home that I have been rejected by men for having too thick of a waist, and too small of boobs OR, I could be glad for the men who think that MY shape is perfect.

        We ALL get rejected for various reasons.  Sometimes the reasons are “immutable” and some are not “immutable” but are shallow never the less. I contend that we don’t CHOOSE who we are attracted to, we DISCOVER who we are attracted to.  Being upset with men who aren’t attracted to small boobs would be like being upset with someone who doesn’t like brussel sprouts.

        Rejection sucks no matter what the reason.  You can lecture someone until the cows come home that their attraction triggers are wrong, but you can’t force someone to feel attraction to you.

        I am repulsed by Duck Dynasty type beards.  By that I mean, long, all over the face, gray scratchy beards.  I never woke up and made a decision or a check list and arbitrarily decided to put big bushy beards on the list.  It just IS.

        So is my “no Duck Dynasty” beards requirement “unfair” and “not noble” because facial hair is no indicator of relationship fitness ? Or is this no Duck Dynasty beard repulsion fair game, because it’s not an immutable trait ?

        You can’t legislate attraction.  Expecting every woman to be attracted to you is unrealistic.  Spend more time looking for the woman who will love you as is, (she’s out there) and less time reading studies that have convinced you that you will die lonely due your height.

    2. 6.2
      SparklingEmerald

      Do Tall Men Get Laid More?

      Apparently, yes they get laid more, but that doesn’t mean short men don’t get laid at all.

      And notice the very first male commenter asked if the tall men were getting laid by women who are 9’s or 10’s. Hard to feel sympathy for short men lamenting that women reject them for being short while rejecting women for being less than a 9 or a 10.

      1. 6.2.1
        Scooter

        Who said short men don’t get laid?

        Why would you even make such a ridiculous statement about short men?

        Hard to feel sympathy for short men lamenting that women reject them for being short while rejecting women for being less than a 9 or a 10.

        This is about the umpteenth time I’ve seen you do the following:

        “Some person said/interviewed/took rough poll of something, so it’s fact for a whole group of people”

        SE.. seriously.. stop.

        1. SparklingEmerald

          I NEVER said ALL short men lament women rejecting them and want a woman who is a 9 or 10.  I said it is hard to feel sympathy for the ones that do.

          You said “it doesn’t erase the fact that women have this irrational bias.”  ALL women, or most women, or just some women ?  Your forgot to say “most” or “some” You forgot the “not all women” disclaimer.   Just because I don’t put the “Not all men”, or “not all short men” disclaimer in every freaking sentence of every post, does NOT mean I am lumping ALL short mean or that I think “Some person said/interviewed/took rough poll of something, so it’s fact for a whole group of people

          Oh, and BTW, your assertions that you aren’t attacking anyone or insulting anyone are pure bunk.  Your posts on this subject are very hostile, and you act as if ONLY short men are rejected in the dating game.  We ALL have our biases, and we ALL have been rejected for superficial reasons.  Welcome to the club.

          Women who DON’T have height requirements are NOT unicorns. Even EMK says that  They may not constitute 100% of the dating population or even half, but sheesh, how many people can claim to be desired by the majority of the opposite sex ?  Unicorns do not exist, they are mythical creatures.  Women who are open to dating short men DO EXIST, so quite calling us unicorns.  I honestly don’t give a shit about height, but I am not special in that respect.

          I was in my late 50’s and divorced by a fairly SHORT man (he dumped me, he didn’t “lose” me).  You really think I was the largest demographic that men desired ?  Does it matter ?  It only takes one, and I found him, and he ain’t 6 feet tall.

          I think the fact that you think a short man who cheats on his wife has “lost” her is rather telling. He didn’t “lose” her, he betrayed his marriage vows and does NOT deserve her, no matter his height.  Just goes to show how irrational YOU are being in this discussion.

          Good luck in your search.

          Don’t engage me in this topic any further, you are completely incapable of being civil, or even logical about it (as evidenced by your assumption that EMK’s ex husband “lost” her, and the inference that it had something to with his height)

           

           

           

           

           

           

        2. Scooter

          Oh, and BTW, your assertions that you aren’t attacking anyone or insulting anyone are pure bunk.  Your posts on this subject are very hostile, and you act as if ONLY short men are rejected in the dating game.  We ALL have our biases, and we ALL have been rejected for superficial reasons.  Welcome to the club.

          No.. you are inserting YOUR meaning to my words.  That’s not my problem, it’s yours.  They are presenting fact.  I have not insulted anyone.  So please SE, take your personal issues (about yourself, short men, whatever), try to set them aside, and be objective.

          Don’t engage me in this topic any further, you are completely incapable of being civil, or even logical about it (as evidenced by your assumption that EMK’s ex husband “lost” her, and the inference that it had something to with his height)

          And here is yet another example of you and Noone45 bringing internal bias and anger into this.

          I brought up EMKs wife choosing him, ONLY as an illustration that EMK has a distinct advantage due to his appearance AND game.

          You are the one who is unfairly saying anything else, here.

          SE.. once again.. just stop.

        3. Scooter

          Sparkling Emerald:I NEVER said ALL short men lament women rejecting them and want a woman who is a 9 or 10.  I said it is hard to feel sympathy for the ones that do.

          My bad for misinterpreting what you were trying to say.

          ALL women, or most women, or just some women ?

          According to the data out there, by definition, it’s “most women”.

          Oh, and BTW, your assertions that you aren’t attacking anyone or insulting anyone are pure bunk.  Your posts on this subject are very hostile, and you act as if ONLY short men are rejected in the dating game.  We ALL have our biases, and we ALL have been rejected for superficial reasons.  Welcome to the club.

          If you view my statements as hostility, that’s on you.  Just don’t twist my words; that’s all I ask.

          I’ve said it more than a few times: “it’s all superficial”.  Bust size, men’s heights. etc.. it’s all superficial.  The hypocrisies are my issue. (i.e. public view: “Don’t you dare talk about and discriminate based on women’s weights, but denigrating and choosing men using height as the overriding #1 factor, is okay”)

          Women who DON’T have height requirements are NOT unicorns. Even EMK says that  They may not constitute 100% of the dating population or even half, but sheesh, how many people can claim to be desired by the majority of the opposite sex ?  

          There is an obsessive insistence by you and others concerning my use of the word “unicorn”, which was really meant to be more tongue-in-cheek.  I should have used the word “uncommon”, because it is.

          I think the fact that you think a short man who cheats on his wife has “lost” her is rather telling. He didn’t “lose” her, he betrayed his marriage vows and does NOT deserve her, no matter his height.  

          Once again, you’re ascribing meaning to my words. I never said what you are deriving from my words.  EMK brought him up as “evidence” that short fat funny guys do well with women. I disgree with that.

          If you presented me with a single example of a fat and bald woman who happened to get married to an attractive gentleman, and use that to say, “SEE! Even fat bald women can get ‘the one’ if she ‘has game’!”, I’d laugh that off. It’s an outlier, and definitely not accept that as anything but a 1/1000000.

           

        4. Cathalei

          Seriously, I don’t get the anger hurled at Scooter’s direction. He didn’t talk about coercing anyone into being attracted to him, he simply talked about something he observed. Though I don’t agree with this observation (I never heard women around me putting so much “weight” on height) he obviously witnessed that in his circles. But he should keep in mind that women who don’t give a damn aren’t too rare either.

          I disagree about women’s power in dating as well. Yes, men are usually the first to initiate but they initiate based on initial attraction. They don’t just initiate with any woman. That being said, it’s time to evaluate honestly. It’s normal for anyone to want to be with someone whom they’re attracted to. But when we put it down to a laundry list we should be ready to get judged on a similar laundry list. If you insist on a certain bust size, you must be ready to get judged based on your muscle mass. If you put height as an indispensable criteria, you should be ready to get judged based on your hips. People can’t choose whom they’re attracted to, but they can choose to not reduce someone to numbers and a list. In fact, we are attracted to people, not bulletpoints on a list.

          And amongst all this discussion, what we shouldn’t forget is that we are talking about human beings. Just because you’re not attracted to someone doesn’t make them worthless or potential criminals. Everyone is entitled to reject someone’s propositions but trash talking after rejection tells far more about the trash-talker than those they rejected. People might be frustrated and talk about it and they can make observations. That doesn’t make them monsters who are after coercing others. It’s important to realize they’re just human like you.

        5. Emily, the original

          Cathalei,

          Seriously, I don’t get the anger hurled at Scooter’s direction.

          It’s part of being on this blog.

        6. SparklingEmerald

          Catheli said “Seriously, I don’t get the anger hurled at Scooter’s direction. He didn’t talk about coercing anyone into being attracted to him, he simply talked about something he observed.”

          Actually, he is not just acting as an objective observer, he complains that the dating game is unfair and than in a post to Tom, denies ever saying it and Tom had to remind that he said “There is no fairness, or nobility, in the current dating system.”

          I actually was in Scooter’s corner initially, even defending his right to be attracted to whomever he is attracted to, but it is hard to unpack his many contradictions and  this quote I think is where I, and perhaps others take issue . . .

          Scooter said

          “Furthermore, we all know that women are in-control of the dating game; they choose, and men have to do most of the work to be chosen.  Given the above premises, I think it’s perfectly fine for men to have a preference for younger women, even 20+ years younger.  Why not?  Since women date-up based on “superficial” characteristics, some of which are completely uncontrollable, they “marketize” men according to those traits.  So, why can’t men do the same thing once they achieve a certain status, and “trade-in” for a better model, once hitting 50?”

          He then completely contradicts his italicized comments by continuing with . . .
          I’m not “for” what is written above, but I get it. There is no fairness, or nobility, in the current dating system.”

          You can’ be “perfectly fine” with  men to have a preference for younger women and not be “for” it.  He also condones men “trading in ” for a better model, which to me, means, he is perfectly fine with cheating as well.

          Many of his posts show a big hostility over women having a preference based on height calling it “irrational” and saying “women simply do not care”, etc., yet he is perfectly OK with men having a youth preference (BTW, I am too, men AND women are going to be attracted to whatever they are attracted to, and I don’t begrudge EITHER gender) and even seems to be OK with men “trading up” which I consider cheating.  Curious, he had no issue with a “short fat” man cheating on his wife (EMK’s wife and her first husband) and had more issue over the fact that she married EMK, who is classicly good looking.

          He also complains that we are telling him to “shut up”, but he has repeatedly said to me “SE, STOP, just stop”

          Anyway, not really intending this as an attack on Scooter, he is frustrated, I get it.  But you you wonder why the “hostility” toward Scooter, and I am just pointing out where I think the “hostility” is coming from.

          Reply

        7. Scoooter

          Cathalei: Seriously, I don’t get the anger hurled at Scooter’s direction. He didn’t talk about coercing anyone into being attracted to him, he simply talked about something he observed. Though I don’t agree with this observation (I never heard women around me putting so much “weight” on height) he obviously witnessed that in his circles. But he should keep in mind that women who don’t give a damn aren’t too rare either.
          Thanks Cathalei. There are enough studies out there to support what I say.  In any case, thanks for the support.
          I disagree about women’s power in dating as well. Yes, men are usually the first to initiate but they initiate based on initial attraction. They don’t just initiate with any woman. That being said, it’s time to evaluate honestly. It’s normal for anyone to want to be with someone whom they’re attracted to. But when we put it down to a laundry list we should be ready to get judged on a similar laundry list. If you insist on a certain bust size, you must be ready to get judged based on your muscle mass. If you put height as an indispensable criteria, you should be ready to get judged based on your hips. People can’t choose whom they’re attracted to, but they can choose to not reduce someone to numbers and a list. In fact, we are attracted to people, not bulletpoints on a list.
          I don’t agree with you concerning women’s power in the dating game. I am fairly sure that in younger years, women have most of the power. And an attractive 20 or 30 something woman?  “She” has more social power than I can fathom; instant validation is just steps away, and her ability to choose (among so many fawning for her) is powerful. Granted, men have longer “staying power”, especially if they are good-looking, fit, and successful, but still, that comes with far more “work” put in, IMO. 
          As for the rest of your paragraph:  I’ve said as much previously, when mentioning there just isn’t nobility or fairness in the current dating game.  I don’t want it to be such, but it’s true.  You say people shouldn’t reduce another to numbers and stats?  Well.. tell that to a majority of online dating consumers. *Shrug* I guess human social and more importantly, spiritual evolution is still in the “Stone Age”, in some respects.  Isn’t it?

        8. Scooter

          SparklingEmerald
          Actually, he is not just acting as an objective observer, he complains that the dating game is unfair and than in a post to Tom, denies ever saying it and Tom had to remind that he said “There is no fairness, or nobility, in the current dating system.”
          Which Tom10, and you, took the wrong way.  I believe you do this intentionally.
          I actually was in Scooter’s corner initially, even defending his right to be attracted to whomever he is attracted to, but it is hard to unpack his many contradictions and  this quote I think is where I, and perhaps others take issue . . .
          Scooter said
          “Furthermore, we all know that women are in-control of the dating game; they choose, and men have to do most of the work to be chosen.  Given the above premises, I think it’s perfectly fine for men to have a preference for younger women, even 20+ years younger.  Why not?  Since women date-up based on “superficial” characteristics, some of which are completely uncontrollable, they “marketize” men according to those traits.  So, why can’t men do the same thing once they achieve a certain status, and “trade-in” for a better model, once hitting 50?”
          He then completely contradicts his italicized comments by continuing with . . .
          “I’m not “for” what is written above, but I get it. There is no fairness, or nobility, in the current dating system.”

          You can’ be “perfectly fine” with  men to have a preference for younger women and not be “for” it.  He also condones men “trading in ” for a better model, which to me, means, he is perfectly fine with cheating as well.
          Wow, just wow.  You are simply not adept at more complex nuances, SE.  What I wrote was absolutely NOT a contradiction.  One can say  the “like for like biases should be acceptable” given the current state of dating, and especially online dating, and then essentially say, “It sucks, and I wish it weren’t that way”.  Can you comprehend this.. well to you I am sure it’s a direct dichotomy.
          Many of his posts show a big hostility over women having a preference based on height calling it “irrational” and saying “women simply do not care”, etc., yet he is perfectly OK with men having a youth preference (BTW, I am too, men AND women are going to be attracted to whatever they are attracted to, and I don’t begrudge EITHER gender) and even seems to be OK with men “trading up” which I consider cheating.  Curious, he had no issue with a “short fat” man cheating on his wife (EMK’s wife and her first husband) and had more issue over the fact that she married EMK, who is classicly good looking.
          Definitely.. definitely.  If it’s okay to choose based on one immutable trait, then it should be so for another. Right? Does the simple statement escape you?  That doesn’t mean I think it is okay.  Try to hold those two thoughts in your head. 
          He also complains that we are telling him to “shut up”, but he has repeatedly said to me “SE, STOP, just stop”
          Because you are dishonest when using my words.  Or, as I see above, you are just not “getting it”. 

        9. SparklingEmerald

          Scooter “Because you are dishonest when using my words.  Or, as I see above, you are just not “getting it”. ”

          Scooter, I could say the same about you.  I have never gave a personal anecdote and then claimed it applied to 100% of the population.  I never said “other posters have said, blah, blah, blah and therefore EVERYONE believes this”.  You might be reading that into my posts, but I never said it.  As to weather or not you are deliberately making shit up about my posts, or not, I can’t say, because I am not inside your head.

          And talk about nuance.  I can’t believe that you missed the point of my post about the guy complaining about 38% of women on match wanting men over 5’10” My first following sentence was “talk about being a pessimist”.  Surely you have heard of the glass half empty vs the glass half full metaphor ?  My ENTIRE POINT WAS, to look for the women who WANT you, and not the women who DON’T want you, but instead you said that I “erroneously” assumed something.  You also got your knickers in a wad, because I didn’t have a breakdown of the height preferences of the remaining 62 percent.  I wasn’t given that information in the post that I responded to, so I only responded to the information given.  The point being, stop looking at the glass as 38% empty instead of 62% full.  Hard to believe you didn’t see THAT nuance !

          I think we are both MISUNDERSTANDING each others posts, (easy to do on the internet)  but you are choosing to attack me, and accuse me of deliberately whatevering.  Then you use that to tell me to shut up, while complaining that we are telling you to shut up. So please stop telling me to shut up !  It’s rude.  Ask me to clarify what I mean instead of attacking me for what you are adding in to my post.

          Also, you complain a lot about women who say that women can discriminate based on height, but men absolutely cannot discriminate on weight.  I haven’t seen a single poster make that statement, (maybe someone has, but I missed it)  but if you have, I suggest you take it up with her individually.  I do see some voices on the internet saying men should find fat women sexy or whatever and I do hear some voices from other women saying they aren’t attracted to short men, but in all honesty, I have never seen one poster declare that men should NOT “discriminate” against fat women, but women should be allowed to discriminate against short men.

          I have CERTAINLY never said anything like that ever.  I have always maintained that attraction is not a choice, but a discovery (and I catch a lot of shit about that) and that we ALL have our attraction triggers and we are all entitled to them.   I have also said that not being attracted to someone is no reason to mock, ridicule, bully or verbally abuse them EVEN if the trait is something percieved as changeable.

          Fairness really has NOTHING do with what one finds attractive.  No one can legislate what others find attractive.  The EEOC cannot dictate a quota of whom you can date.  Some of us have more advantages in the game than others.  (Believe me, I have been single in my 20’s, and single in my late 50’s through no choice of my own, I know which age group has the advantage)

          We can moan about how “unfair ” it is that a good looking rich guy, has a better chance than a plain looking middle income guy.  But is that moaning effective ?

          The fairness comes in when you say that EVERYONE is entitled to their attractions, and I have NEVER said anything that contradicts that.

          I personally have no issue with male height, but I don’t villify women who do.  I have no issue with  men who aren’t attracted to my body type either, or my age, or my past marital history either.  I know I only appealed to a very small subset of men, and guess what, despite my small demographic, I’ve manage to find love again in my late 50’s.

          I think you will find love again too.  You even admitted that your last relationship with a girl “out of your league” lasted 5 months.  If you think that was your one in a million chance, then I, EMK or nobody here can help you.   You seem to have had past success with women, despite all the studies that say otherwise.  Stop letting the studies dictate your happiness, and find yourself an attractive woman who’s crazy about you.

          Even Karl guesses that only 5% of women find him attractive (I think the number is higher, but I’m not him, so he has the final say on that) Yet he is happily married to a very pretty wife. (he posted a dance vid)  He stated that he just looked am0ung the 5% of women who he found attractive.  Take his advice, it’s good.

          Go out there and look for the girls who are looking for you, until you find one that you like.  If a 58 year old woman can find a husband, and a man with a self professed 5% demographic can find love, then you should be able to as well.

          Perhaps you should also re-consider your league.  If you had a woman “out of your league”* as a girlfriend for 5 months, perhaps you are undervaluing yourself.

          *I hate the concept of “leagues” and SMV, but sadly they do exist.  However, they are not carved in stone, due to beauty being in the eye of the beholder.

          Go find yourself a girl.  Happy Hunting !

        10. Scooter

          Sparkling Emerald: …*I hate the concept of “leagues” and SMV, but sadly they do exist.  However, they are not carved in stone, due to beauty being in the eye of the beholder.
          Go find yourself a girl.  Happy Hunting !

          I did read your full post, SE, I just eliminated most of it in the quote, because of space.

          Thank you. That’s all I can say. I think we finally understand one-another, to a much greater degree.

          In a part I did not quote, you say that women shouldn’t be villified for being attracted to taller me.  Of course!  I do agree. My points are more nuanced around the absurd taboo.  For example, there shouldn’t be intense social pressures, which absolutely exist, that make women far more reticent to consider it.

          But they do.  They do. Oh well, right? As you and I both agree.. find a way.

          Perhaps you should also re-consider your league.  If you had a woman “out of your league”* as a girlfriend for 5 months, perhaps you are undervaluing yourself.

          Not with regards to appearance, SE.  Her SMV, a term we both dislike, is far greater, and that is clearly evidenced by the fact that she was dating within.. I think one week of the break-up.  I may have mentioned previously: within a few days, she had 140+ messages in her inbox.

          Me? I’ve had to work much much harder to find quality dates.

          By the way, not complaining here.. just stating facts, and by “quality” I am including far more than just appearance. I don’t want any confusion with regards to this.

          One thing that has been magnified for me, through this series of posts with you, Tom10 and others: We live in our own realities.  Too many lack a “serviceable” degree of empathy. I wish people had a greater ability to empathize.

          I DO understand the challenges women face with dating, as they get older.  I can put myself in those shoes, and postulate the ever increasing difficulties in finding a desirable partner, later in life.  This definitely holds true for men, but I think everyone here would agree; it’s more difficult for women.

          Anyway, I am meandering.  Thanks again for your latest post. It was very nice.  Best wishes.

        11. Marika

          Hi Scooter

          Nice response (the last one) to SE. I can’t reply directly to it, so I don’t know where this comment will end up.

          On the topic of empathy, I agree with you that it’s an important trait and one that is often lacking. I value it greatly myself. However, just to add in another perspective; this is how I see it, particularly as it pertains to this forum:

          – Being able to write things without knowing a person, anonymously on the Internet does tend to lower defences and make people bolder (and at times more agro). If you were talking to people in person about most of the topics that come up on this blog, I feel there would be more empathy shown and certainly less nastiness.

          – The first or second time you mention something, I think is the time you’re most likely to get an empathetic response. The more you mention it, the more people either switch off or start to think, ‘hang on, he thinks he has it bad?! What about…’.

          – From being around for a while and reading a lot of his stuff, Evan’s work is very much geared towards solutions. Not in order to be nasty or non-empathetic, but because complaining about something, even something that is very valid, doesn’t get you very far. Yes, it gets it off your chest and it’s nice to have people understand where you’re coming from and make you feel like they care, but at the end of the day, you can’t change your height, or certain women’s perception of the importance of height. You can only work with what you have. And focus on the people who aren’t height obsessed.

          – There are some people on here (not you) who do nothing but talk about what they want but can’t get, and complain about everything.. and never take on any advice or suggestions. Those commenters are very frustrating, and some of us, as soon as we get a whiff of that, start to think, ‘oh no, not another one’… as I said, though, I’m not saying that’s you.

          Someone coined the term ‘blog jadedness’. This is a useful forum and speaking personally I’ve made some connections here I would consider (virtual) friendships, but sometimes you need a break. Because there is a lot of negativity on here too. Many of us feel that way sometimes 🙂

        12. SparklingEmerald

          Scooter said “Thanks again for your latest post. It was very nice. Best wishes.”

          Awww, you’re welcome Scooter. Best wishes and here’s to you finding the girl of your dreams in 2019 — (or sooner 🙂 )

  7. 7
    Michelle

    Agree with this completely, especially when it comes to online dating.  It’s a small facet of a person; their best photo, a few white lies  (height, weight, age),  and a creatively written profile designed to garner the highest response rates.  It’s also NOT REAL.  That’s why there are so many disappointing first coffee and cocktail dates after having “so much chemistry” online and over the phone.  I also question the “success rate” stats from online dating, lots of dates and short relationships, but actual marriage and long term relationships?  Not so much….  You can’t capture a person’s true appeal until you meet them in person.  That “something” they have.  It’s why you see the average looking guy with the hot girl, he has “that something” that can’t be captured online, or visa versa.  But I do agree that everyone needs to be realistic about their “market value’ in the dating world.  It would save everyone a lot of heartache.  A pleasingly plump 36 year old women, divorced with two kids is not going to date the hot, successful 40 year old stock broker with no kids; EVER.  The sweet and lovable truck driver with a “good heart” is not going to hear back from the hot, smart, successful 32 something.  EVER.   That doesn’t mean you can’t find an amazing relationship with someone who is in the same arena as you.  It’s not “settling.”  If you feel like you are not getting and attracting the right “level” of men or women, then up YOUR game.  Go to the gym, work on your personal brand,  yourself, your confidence levels, your energy and vibe you give off.  Get a better job, surround yourself with a level up.  And accept reality.

    1. 7.1
      XXX

      Michelle, as many men on this and other blogs would attest, men can happily date “down” for sex. So that hot 40 year old stockbroker can have a fling with the pleasantly plump divorcee with two kids, but is unlikely to commit to her. If she pursues him hard enough, he would think “why not” ? Why turn down easy sex if a woman is not totally repulsive to him. This is a warning to women not to pursue men “out of their league” or they risk being used.

    2. 7.2
      Scooter

      What a great delineation, Michelle.
      However, not everyone lies on a profile.  My Match profile is 100% legit, with no fabrication.
      Of course I am presenting my better photos, but who wouldn’t?  The point of it is to get my foot “in-the-door”.  That takes some magic, considering the state of on-line dating, and the plethora of men, from which (even average) women have at their feet.

    3. 7.3
      Seth

      I don’t know….I am 41, my match profile is 100% me and I have pics that show me from head to toe.
      I would message women in my age range 30-40….they never respond or if they did, they weren’t interested.
      A 20 year old did respond, and she and I have been talking/seeing each other.
      Can’t say I am very happy about that though….it’s actually a little demoralizing (for me) that women in my age range aren’t interested, but a 20 year old is.

      1. 7.3.1
        Treifalicious

        What about women up to, say, 45? You’d probably see a lot more action there…

        1. Seth

          Honestly, depends on how they look.
          I take very good care of myself
          Plus my ex-wife was older than me would prefer not to do that again.

        2. XXX

          Not if Seth wants the possibility of children….

           

           

      2. 7.3.2
        Yet Another Guy

        @Seth

        Take it from me, you will do better with women in your desired age range if your specified age range includes your own age plus a few years (30 to 45 will work).   A lot of women consider a man who has an age range that does not include his own age plus a few years to be sexist.  My specified age range is my age plus ten years.  Would I date a woman that much my senior? Well, only if she was a unicorn.  However, what it did was allow me to extend my lower bound to my age minus fifteen years without being labeled a sexist.  You will receive a lot of responses from older women because women age 40+ tend to want to date younger on dating sites too.  However, you do not have to engage these women, and I can assure you that your response rate with women in your true target age range will increase.

        1. Seth

          Didn’t think of it that way, but you have a point.
          Thanks for the advice.

          @XXX
          I have kids.  3 of them.  The oldest is 18 and in college.  I do not want anymore.

        2. Karl R

          Seth,
          If you want a woman without kids, then you’re targeting the wrong age range.

          I’ve never had kids and never wanted them. Back in my late 30s, I was looking for women who didn’t have any kids living at home, and who marked “do not want kids” or “probably not” on their dating profiles.
          For women 30-35, less than 3% met that criteria.
          For women 35-40, between 7% and 8% met that criteria.
          For women 40-45, approximately 45% met that criteria.
          (This was on match.com, 10 years ago, where I live. Exact numbers may differ for your location.)

          After realizing that, I started focusing more of my efforts on dating women who were 40+. They were much less likely to have/want kids.
          If you’re dead set on dating women who are 30-40, you might need to shift your views on having more kids. Otherwise, you might need to shift your age range upwards.

  8. 8
    Treifalicious

    @Seth – You ex-wife was older? By how much? How did it affect you relationship that you wouldn’t want to date someone say 2-5 years older.

    I’d think that if you were close enough in age to have been in high school or college together the age different would be immaterial. I’m not sure why this would matter (aside from childbearing and even then you never know) when you’re in your 40s.

    Or is it that younger women just look better, even if it’s just a 5 year difference…

    1. 8.1
      Seth

      @Treifalicious
      The ex was 4 years older than me.
      I wouldn’t say that her age affected me, since we met when I was 19 and she was 23.  How she treated me, is what affected me.
      But now shift forward and I am 41 (and most ppl when they see me, think I am early to mid 30’s).  And as I mentioned in earlier posts, I take very good care of myself, I try to look the best I possibly can.
      So typically (I would say >98%) the women at 40+ years I have noticed do not take care of themselves.  They let themselves go…
      And yes I am a visual person, and ppl may think that shallow, but it is what it is.  I need to be sexually/visually attracted to you….as well as like other qualities and traits about you.
      And if you are overweight and have let yourself go, then that doesn’t appeal to me.
      And I am not making demands of a person, I don’t make of myself.

      1. 8.1.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @Seth

        So typically (I would say >98%) the women at 40+ years I have noticed do not take care of themselves.  They let themselves go…

        I would not say the percentage is that high, but what you have written does apply a lot of age 40+ women who have children (it applies to a lot of late thirty-something single moms as well).   It is difficult to be a hot forty-something mom.  The rigors of day-to-day life preclude a single mom from spending that much time on herself.

         

        1. Seth

          @YAG
          Valid point.
          I can only say I have 3 kids.  I have custody of them. Their mother provides no support for them.
          I make time to go to the gym and eat right.  Does require me at times to wake up earlier and get my workout in…and during the winter, those cold mornings sucks.  But I do it.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @Seth

          Who watches your children while you are at the gym?  I believe that your view of reality is skewed and bit myopic. There is a reason why a lot of women with young children remain out of the dating pool.  They have to make a choice between spending time with their children and spending time on themselves.  If given this choice, most women will choose their children.

        3. Seth

          @YAG
          My kids are 18, 13 and 12.
          Perhaps you are right and my view is skewed.
          But I will say most gyms now offer child care services.
          And I am sure your retort to that would be, “Well those services cost money” and you are right….so I guess they have to skip their daily PSL??
          Things cost me as well, so I make choices on where I wish to spend my money.  Just saying.
          I see your point and it is valid.
          But I also think my point is valid….you make things a priority if you want it.
          And I believe that your children as well as you keeping yourself in decent shape can be a shared priority….as well as setting an example for your kids.

        4. Yet Another Guy

          @Seth

          You started your family very young.  Most women your age have much younger children, especially if they are professional women.  My only children are 18 (twins), and I have sixteen years on you.  I have witnessed women whose children are old enough to not need a sitter transform from matronly looking women to much more physically desirable women in the two-plus years that I have been on the dating sites.  The transformation is often unbelievable.

          In my humble opinion, you are just making excuses for taking a second dip into the younger childless woman pool.  That is your prerogative, but you should not be surprised if you get your head slammed against the wall by younger childless women who can get peer-age childless, fit men.  You have baggage in the form of three children.  Few childless women are going to sign up for that deal when they want their own family.  Dating is an exercise in assortative pairing.  When you recognize and accept that reality, you will be much more successful on the dating sites.

           

        5. Noone45

          You have three kids. No, really, three kids. You don’t want anymore. You can’t be seriously expecting a young woman to give up her fertile years for you. That’s pretty much what you are asking for.

          I’ve got onekid. Just the one. He’s autistic. I could look like gigi Hadid and still be single for life due to that. I’m not saying that’s you, I’m saying having kids lowers your attractiveness. If your kids have any issues, you are finished.  If your kids are normal, you are fine. Focus your efforts on people who have children and you will fare better.

      2. 8.1.2
        Marika

        98% of men make ridiculous, unfounded claims about women their own age on dating blogs.

        … or perhaps I’m exaggerating..

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @Marika

          You are not exaggerating.  A lot of men believe that they are due a younger, if not a significantly (>10 years) younger woman.  It is delusion more than anything else driving this desire.  I will admit to suffering somewhat from this affliction because my ex-wife is seven years my junior, but the more I dated, the more I appreciated women plus or minus a few years of my own age.  The woman I am currently dating is four years my senior.  That makes her a sixty-something, an age cohort that knows what it is like to be invisible to men.  I would have never considered dating a woman my senior when I first re-entered the dating pool.  However, she does not look her age and it is an easy fit.

        2. Seth

          Or you could be accurate.
          One can only go by evidence that is presented.
          Right?

  9. 9
    Treifalicious

    You know I get that. I’m pretty much the same way. I don’t try to day “I’m x but look x-10 or x-5” but all my likl I was taken for younger, which was a big problem when I was 18 and taken for 14.

     

    The vast majority of men in their 40s don’t look good,v of at least not as good as men in their 40s. The difference is that if I met a guy who was my age or a little older that looked good and I was physically attracted to him, I’d make an exception – and I am someone who had preferred men a few years younger all my life when going back to college. I’ve never in my life dated anyone more than 5 years old than me and the last guy I dated was 16 years younger.

    This thing is I don’t think most men in their 40s would give women the same age or slightly older the same amount of consideration,v when when the younger women they really want shoot them down over and over again. Believe me I’d really prefer to date a 35 year old or even better, a 28 year old, but I don’t expect him to be serious about a relationship with me. So I’ll take a guy who’s 45 *who I’m attracted to* and is more on the same page and stage of life so I am. Easier said than done. Too many men seem to continue to chase youngir women who often (from what they tell me and what I remember experiencing) are more interested in what an older man can do for them (providing financial or emotional security after bring dumped by some guy they were crazy about, as it seems women expect older men to kiss their ass because their younger and are then mystified if/when he doesn’t) or are interested in a brief fling to cross it off of their bucket list.

    In this way everyone stays singleand frustrated longer…

    1. 9.1
      Seth

      I think like you.
      I am not opposed to dating someone my age or a bit older.
      But I still have to be attracted to them
      And I admit I am picky….
      But you are right, that is why everyone stays single and is frustrated. LOL

      1. 9.1.1
        Marika

        Seth

        You’re very focused on what you want. A relationship is about two people. Have you given any thought to what the women in your target age range may want? Think about what you can offer, as well as the potential drawbacks of dating you. To inject some humility into the equation.

        Eg, no doubt you take care of yourself and look young for your age. Caring for kids means you’re probably quite responsible and mature. You’re healthy.

        But you’re also admittedly shallow, have three kids, probably not a lot of time, probably not a lot of money to throw around socializing and no help from your ex. That’s a LOT to take on. Particularly for a woman under 40. A 30 year old gym obsessed woman both a. has lots of options, and b. probably isn’t a great match for a mature, responsible man with 3 kids and no mother in the picture.

        That may sound harsh, but the more you see it from your date’s perspective, the more compassionate you can be and better focused on what’s most important.

        1. anon

          Agreed. Three kids is an enormous responsibility. The kids will innumerable big ticket purchases including  cars, insurance, college, cell phones, and weddings paid for. Multiply by three. Then, start over with grandkids. Not too many people standing in line to date some one who has already promised to love and cherish someone else, then cement it with three kids. Lots of permanent stuff right there.

  10. 10
    Marika

    YAG

    Congrats! Truly am happy for you 🙂 Hope it works out for you and your new lady. Keep us posted.

  11. 11
    Marika

    anon

    Thanks for agreeing, but that wasn’t really my point. I don’t think people with kids should be destined to live alone. Plenty of people with kids find love and re-partner again, and good for them!

    I just don’t think they do it by chasing younger women, without kids, and who never want kids, disrespecting women their own age, and with the proviso that they have to be fit. You can maybe get away with that attitude if you’re a 29 year old single, childless supermodel (not a 41 year old single Dad with full custody of three kids who thinks 98% of women aren’t good enough for him because he goes to the gym). And even then, I don’t think that attitude will land you in a great relationship.

    1. 11.1
      anon

      Marika, agreed. I was trying to illustrate your point more from the younger women point of view. She is going to be dreaming about her ‘perfect catch with a perfect life’ and it probably means starting her own family from scratch.  It’s that “League” thingy that were talking about. Divorced dads usually end up with divorced moms, or whatever else you consider a ‘fair trade’ for three kids from another woman. People have to date up or down a reasonable amount (couple of standard deviations) from what they bring to the table. Sorry it sounds so transactional, but look at how the divorced dads are seeing it. Unilaterally.

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