I’m 40 And Want To Date Men 8 Years Younger. Am I Being Unrealistic?

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First of all, I would like to thank you for all the invaluable help you give us with men and how to find love. I read your blog religiously and I’ve bought several of your books.

I know you’ve already talked about age in your blog, specifically how people, both men and women, prefer to date younger and how the divorce rate goes up when there is a relevant age difference in the couple.

This is my dilemma. I’m a slim, attractive 40-year-old. People usually think I’m 35. Unfortunately, I live in a rural area in Italy, so online dating is not too popular over here. I have a nice personality and don’t usually have problems getting dates but the dating pool itself is limited because of my location. I’d love to have lots of men my age to date but that’s not really an option. 

That’s why I’m also open to date men in their 30s (my top age limit is 50) but how young is too young? Is 32 as my minimum age limit too low? I recently met three lovely 32-year-olds who were looking for something serious and seemed really into me. I ended up dating one of them for a few months and couldn’t feel the age difference at all. (It didn’t work out for unrelated reasons.) 

Should I give a guy who is 7/8 years younger than me a shot? 

Am I being unrealistic, considering he could easily choose a 27-year-old girl for a serious relationship? I know not all men are the same and on the one hand I find myself thinking “it only takes one” but on the other hand I know that statistically speaking men prefer dating younger women. I’m trying to keep my options as open as possible but I also don’t want to waste my time or set myself up for heartbreak.

Since it’s probably relevant, I would have loved to have children but at my age I’m aware that men who really want them only date younger women, so I’ve made my peace with that. The three 32-year-olds didn’t want children or were fine either way.

Thank you for your attention and support.
Love,
-Stefania

I have a philosophy: control what you can, let go of the rest.

Control what you can, let go of the rest.

Most of us spend a lot of time railing against reality. 

It’s COLD in winter. It’s HOT in summer. There’s TRAFFIC at rush hour. And, in my world, “MEN aren’t good enough and don’t act the way I want them to.” And it’s true. It’s cold in winter, it’s hot in summer, there’s traffic at rush hour, and most men aren’t good enough and don’t act the way you want.

Given all of that, what IS within your control?

When I take on Love U Masters clients, we go through everything you can possibly control and try to make minor tweaks where possible.

If you’re complaining about your area, could you move to another area? If you can’t move to another area, let’s make the best of dating in your area. There’s not much else to do.

If your issue is your age, you can expand your age range from 32-50, like you have. 

The general results will be predictable.

  • The older men will feel that you’re more of a prize because you’re 10 years younger.
  • The older men will also be more prone to lying about their ages, in order to attract a younger woman, so you’ll get a lot of emails from men who look 50-60.
  • The younger men – whose search criteria, if they want to have kids, will usually hover between 25-35 – may show interest because you describe yourself as attractive.

But that doesn’t mean that you’re exactly what they’re looking for in the future; you could be just a good way to pass the time right now. 

And just because they SAY they’re serious doesn’t mean they are – even if they THINK they are.

I speak from experience.

When I was 31, I remember writing to a 34-year-old woman who wouldn’t give me the time of day because she felt I was too young. I remember being pissed at her rules.

When I was 32, I dated a woman who just turned 38 and fell deeply in love within a few months. Yet the entire time I was with her, I was internally panicked. If I was going to be with her, I would have to get married and start on children FAST. And as a young guy first starting out with his own business, I did NOT feel ready to settle down – even though that was my ultimate goal. It was a blessing that she broke up with me. 

When I was 34, I was still looking for women 27-34 online (so I could theoretically have two children), but after 300 dates, I wasn’t having much luck with my own picker. I met a divorced 37-year-old woman at a party. 16 months later we were engaged. 22 months in, we got married and immediately started trying for kids. 2 miscarriages, 2 chemical pregnancies and a fibroid surgery later, my wife delivered my daughter (at 41) and son (two months before 43). We had no help from doctors. We got VERY lucky.

I share all this not because my story is every man’s story. It’s not. 

But it does illustrate one important idea:

Just because a guy is interested in you (or in love with you) doesn’t mean he’s ready for marriage/kids in an accelerated time span. As long as he can ignore your reality, he’s fine. Once it becomes real, he may choose to exit, at which point, you may have invested a year and a half and have no husband or baby to show for it.

There are exceptions to this – just as there are exceptions to EVERY rule. But there’s a reason you don’t see many 40-year-old women with 32-year-old men – not because it can never happen. (It can! I tried it myself!) But because even good people have to be in the exact same emotional place at the exact same time to make a relationship work. 

And, in general, the divorced guy who wants to get family life right is more likely to settle down more quickly than the 32-year-old. That young man may want the same thing in the long run, but at this moment – even unbeknownst to himself – he may not be ready to stop sowing his oats and building his career or ready to start staying in and diapering babies.

If my job is to provide information and manage your risk, I’m generally leaning towards the single dad population over the cute millennials who tell you exactly what you want to hear.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Bbq

    I thought from the headline she only wanted to date those younger men, if that were the case then Id say only if she didn’t want a serious relationship. But ultimately She can date whoever she wants at whatever age and there’s always the possibility of a serious relationship developing even if it’s more unlikely – look at the French Prime minister guy and his way older wife (actually she probably shouldn’t try that in any English speaking country).

    However even if those 32 year old men she’s willing to try say they don’t want kids and family or aren’t sure about it, there’s always the chance they’re just saying it to keep a nothing better relationship with her going or that they’ll change their mind once they’re a little older. Tho it’s not impossible one of those relationships could work in the long term, it’s more likely with the older men and since she seems to have no actually objection to them other than wanting to increase her dating pool with younger guys, it’s probably a safer bet looking there for a long term relationship.

    Also, call this cultural conditioning or sexism if you want, but most men have a deep instinct which tells them not to settle with a spinster. No offence to her intended.

    1. 1.1
      Ames

      BBQ,
      Why do you say it’s a deep instinct for men? For women, we are wary of old bachelors who avoid commitment and marriage. Something seems broken that they can’t pair bond. Add in aging appearance and it just seems like younger guys have less baggage, wear and tear, right? But we’re dealing with actual humans, not cars. Don’t count out divorced people who still believe in love and have a track record of commitment. Some people just never found their other half so don’t paint all older singles with the same brush. But I am curious why fellas seem so averse to an older single woman. It seems less risky than an old bachelor.

      1. 1.1.1
        Bbq

        Ames

        I wasn’t counting divorced people (all though depending on the reasons thats it’s own problem). Women may well be wary of older bachelors and not love men’s ageing either but unless you’ve seen different from what I’ve seen there are plenty of older bachelors getting married to either similar age or younger women (no I’m not an old bachelor who’s deluding himself to his desirability before anyone tries to say it), so I guess the instinct doesn’t run as deep.

        It’s not even that men aren’t attracted to older women physically or find the relationship “risky”, it’s more instinctual than that. Even if men don’t want children I think they still seek the same qualities that drive the mating instinct on some level – this is why older men will often date a similar age to themselves or younger, even if those women there with are in fact past childbearing age – eg. a 48 yo man could go for a 48 yo woman or a 40 yo woman but would be unlikeliest to go for a 50 yo woman, this doesn’t seem to be the case in women.

        It’s the same human mating biology in play as when women who make their own good money are compelled to date men who also make good money and are high status even if they don’t intend to use those men for money – it doesn’t actually benefit them in any way but it just feels right to them.
        Same thing here.

        I’m not saying it’s right or wrong just that it’s a deep instinct (or a shallow one).

        1. Ames

          Yeah the whole idea that he has to earn more because he’s male makes no sense. If a woman can support herself any extra help is a plus. The last 3 men I have dated including my fiancé have earned significantly less, had worse credit. I wasn’t dating them for prizes. 🙂 That’s where people need to chose logic over lizard brain, (the id.) Concerning age and bachelors, Most people in my circles have been and stayed married or want to remarry—usually a peer. My situation is unique because I’m bisexual and equally enjoyed dating both genders. Women of any age have always been more commitment oriented toward me. I understand why divorced men can feel bitter but when the date starts with proclamations that’s they will NEVER EVER marry or support anyone AGAIN, it’s abrasive. Never heard even divorced lesbians say that. I learned when they come out swing in’ you duck and run! 😉

        2. Bbq

          Ames

          Your right it is the lizard brain but I don’t think it can be overcome even by the most “logical”, I think the ideas it forms just morph with this times. For instance a man could never write if he can support himself any extra help from a woman in this regard would be a plus.

          Yeah dating the bitter and jaded is never a good idea regardless of sex, even if they get over it they probably arent paying that much attention to the actual person in front of them at the time. I mostly agree with you, other than women being more commitment orientated that is – they may be more commitment minded initially but the stats on who want a divorce shows they are far far less likely to stay commitment minded about the same person.

      2. 1.1.2
        RustyLH

        Bias.

        Why would an older single women be less risky than an older single man? I see it in reverse. When she was younger, she had many men to choose from. Only the top tier of men experience abundance in dating, that even average women do. There’s a reason the term “Monkey-branching,” is used to describe women moving from relationship to relationship, and not so for men.

        If she couldn’t find a mate, with all those choices, it sends up a red flag. She was holding out for men out of her league. She thought that because these men had dealings with her, that she would get one of them, permanently, but learned to late. Or did she learn?

        I still remember being in a club, and a group of women who were known to prefer younger guys, were right beside my group of friends. Being honest, they were good looking for their age. One of my friends, the same as me at the time, 25, tried chatting one of them up. One I knew to be 39, and was looking for a serious relationship with a younger guy.

        She rebuffed him because he wasn’t good looking enough. Honestly, he wasn’t at all ugly, but I knew these women, and they all thought they deserved the hottest younger guys. The problem is, those guys they wanted, didn’t want them…not in the same way. The guys they wanted, only saw them as good for sex…a fallback plan for when they were between girlfriends.

        Imagine the guy who was the BMOC in college…good looking guy, and had his choice of women. But now he’s 40, and while still a good looking guy for his age, he still has dad-bod…not horrible, just not as hot as the hotter guys in their 20s and early 30s. But he still thinks he should be able to hold out for the hottest girls in their late 20s. That’s what those women were like.

        I knew this about them because I dated the one he hit on. She made it clear to me that she wanted serious…very serious, and no, I was not ready for serious.

        As for divorced women. Same issue you women say about divorced men. Baggage, and attitude. Possibly fun for a good time, but not a relationship. The innocents is gone. While you think you are as carefree and fun as the younger girls, you aren’t. Just like the older guys aren’t as carefree and fun as the male youngins.

        I know it bothers many of you that most men won’t seriously date older women, but men are hard-wired that way. For most of us, when we try to force it, and date older, something just doesn’t feel right. Much like it would for you, if you tried dating some guy who had no job, and told you that he wanted to be a house husband for the rest of his life. A few women might actually like that, but most women are not. Something won’t feel right about it.

  2. 2
    Bbq

    Sorry I meant unlikely to go for a 55 yo old woman. 2 years isn’t a big enough difference.

    1. 2.1
      RustyLH

      You were right the first time. I seem to remember reading something here, posted by Evan. Maybe it was someplace else, but it was about many many men surveyed, and a very large majority wouldn’t seriously date a woman who was one year older. A much smaller group were open to women up to a couple of years older, if she was worth it. Read that as better than he could get, his age, or younger. Very very few were open to a significantly older woman.

      Yes there are a small minority that seem to seek that out.

      So Ames talked about risky. If I were a woman, and a younger guy claimed to prefer older women, that would send up a red flag. I could delude myself to believe the lines…about how older women know what they want, confidence, etc… You and I both know those are lines. And, knowing what we know, I would wonder…why would he want me…so much older…when he could have a girl his age, or younger? Or can he? Maybe he wasn’t actually that successful with younger women, so he turned to older women? All of the guys I knew, who really did want an older woman…all of them struck out with women their age and younger.

      1. 2.1.1
        Emily, to

        Rusty LH,
        “Very very few were open to a significantly older woman.”
        It’s no different for women. Most older women, say 45 years old, will go a bit younger — maybe date guys who are 35 and up– but you’ll see very few wanting to extend that much of an age range for the older guys. Her top age for guys won’t be 55 but maybe 50. Or 48. Or maybe even 45.

        1. RustyLH

          I don’t disagree with the majority of that statement. I think all things being equal, the vast majority of people out there would prefer somebody about their age, or younger. However, like Bbq pointed out, while this is true, you do see way more relationships where the man is the one that is significantly older, than the woman being significantly older. That isn’t actually surprising when you look at it logically.

          Evan himself has noted that for most men, two things need to exist for a man to want a serious relationship with a woman. He has to find her to be attractive, and she has to make him feel good about himself when he is around her. I can’t find anything wrong with his assessment on that.

          For women, this is not true. Those things DO need to be present for women. They too want to like what they see, and how he makes her feel is also going to be important, but these are not enough on their own. While this might be enough for a man who is, for instance, a CEO of a company…the woman could be unemployed…the same is not true for women. For women, it’s simply part of what she needs from a man. There are many other things on the list, such as his education and employment.

          Combine this with the fact that for men, being younger isn’t a guarantee of even being physically in shape, or having an attractive face, and it leaves more possibility for a relationship to develop.

          I will say this however…my advice to men…any man who is looking…is to be realistic when it comes to age. I do also know men who have what it takes to attract younger women, and DO attract younger women, but these men aren’t interested. They are smart enough to know that there are a lot of potential pitfalls in that scenario. Is she just interested in his money…going to split when he has paid her college tuition, or credit card debt, etc? And they realize that they won’t have the same interests as the younger girls.

          I tell men who join dating sites like OKCupid sites for women in other countries…I tell them to be realistic. Don’t waste their time with the really young, really pretty girls. Be more realistic.

          I had a friend who joined the Philippines version of OKCupid. He was all excited because really pretty girls in their early twenties were responding to him. I told him that this was going to end badly for him if he wasn’t smart about it. He was 48. My advice was that while he COULD find younger…don’t be stupid about it, and don’t waste your time on bad bets.

          My point being that a lot of those really young girls would be more likely to scam him. What happens when a 48 year old man brings an absolute 10 to the U.S. from the Philippines? It’s a good bet that she would become like a kid in a candy store. Many hot young guys would hit on her, married or not.

          My advice to him…ignore any messages from anyone under 30. Be more realistic…concentrate on 35 to 45, and be open to somebody a little outside those numbers. He met and married a 33 year old. They have been married 9 years, and are very happy, with two kids. This woman, I have learned, prioritizes family above everything. What she loves about him, is that he does the same.

          She was raised by her older sister. She wanted to send a couple of hundred dollars per month, out of her own money, to her sister. $200 goes a lot further in the Philippines than in the U.S. A lot further. She wanted to send her own money, but consulted him first, out of respect. He knew the sacrifices her older sister made, so he told her to send $100 of her own money, and he would add in $200 of his own.

          She was surprised he was so agreeable, and thought he would be angry, or very much against her sending money. But, he said, “She sacrificed a lot for you. If you could turn your back on her, I should expect you to do the same to me, at some point.

          They have an amazing relationship. Had he continued to focus on the “best he could get,” he would have missed out on “the best he could get.” Following my advice to leave the really pretty, really young girls alone, allowed him to find the best thing that ever happened to him.

          Sorry this got so long, but I felt including that was important.

        2. Bbq

          Emily, to

          I mean cmon now, why lie? We can all look around and see that simply isn’t true. We can probably see plenty of examples in our own lives whether through friends and aquantinces or family too.

          I truly don’t care about this, but just off the top of my head of people I know roughly from that age range that got together round that age, I can name a bunch with an age gap at least that large.

        3. Emily, to

          Rusty LH,
          “However, like Bbq pointed out, while this is true, you do see way more relationships where the man is the one that is significantly older, than the woman being significantly older. ”
          Only if the woman is young and with the man for his money. Middle aged women who have their own money aren’t interested in much older men.
          “For women, it’s simply part of what she needs from a man. There are many other things on the list, such as his education and employment.”
          For some women, yes. But if she has her own money and status she might actually prefer to go out with a hot, young guy. Depends on what she’s looking for.

        4. Emily, to

          Rusty LH,
          To add to my comment, I’m a woman so I don’t get this struggle for men to not chase much younger women. As I’ve aged, so have the men I find appealing. In my opinion, there’s just no contest to what a grown man can bring to the table versus what a young man can. And, yes, I’m talking about sex appeal but also confidence and life experience and self-awareness .. the list goes on. It’s like comparing store-bought brownies to chef-prepared chocolate mousse.

        5. RustyLH

          Emily, to

          “Only if the woman is young and with the man for his money. Middle aged women who have their own money aren’t interested in much older men.”

          Sorry, but this just isn’t true. While that does happen, that is not actually the norm. 1/5 of all marriages involve a significant age gap, with the overwhelming majority being older man, younger women. I posted the Census webpage that had that info on this very website, a couple of years ago. 1 out of 5 or 6 men are not even close to wealthy.

          Not sure why you want to believe that, but most of the relationships like that, that I see, involve professional women. The majority of the time, the men are also professional, and normally make more than the woman, but not excessively so.

          One couple, I’ve talked about on here before, the woman is not just pretty, she’s hot. Tall, slim, curves where they need to be, and a face similar to Sandra Bullock. Mid 30s, professional…as in VP professional, and married to a man who is 50, bald, and an inch or two shorter than her. She’s about 5’11”, he’s about 5’9″

          He is professional, though makes a little less than her. He does have a good face, despite the lack of hair, and has a skull that looks good bald. He’s also in amazing shape. Puts most young guys to shame. Muscular, broad shoulders, thin waste, muscular lower half.

          Why did she choose him? Why? Because in the overall, he was the best she could find. We talked about that. She told me how in the beginning, he was worried that she would care that he was bald. She told me, “I had the guy with great hair. I had the guy with the huge income. I had the guy with the great car, the great house, the great close, the Hollywood good looks. They were all jerks.”

          You say it as if it is just a fact. No, it’s simply not. There are actually a lot of marriages out there, where the man is significantly older than the woman. Not sure why you don’t see that.

          Again, that website…the Census website had that info, when I posted it. About 1/5 of marriages involved gap of more than 5 years. About 1/3 of those involved an age gap of 10 years or more.

          Sugar babies don’t typically marry their sugar daddies. I’m talking about marriages. In this day and age, dating and marriage are two very very different things. Unlike in the time of our grand parents, and great grand parents, people today, especially men, will date woman, and even shack up with women, that they will not marry.

          The system worked when women actually made men earn sex, through genuine commitment, which took many months to prove.

          “For some women, yes. But if she has her own money and status she might actually prefer to go out with a hot, young guy. Depends on what she’s looking for”

          Yes, it depends on what she is looking for. Is she looking for a possible life partner, or a short term fling? Being honest with yourself is the first step in getting what you want. If she wants a life partner, the younger guy is a bad bet.

          In the second post, you didn’t say anything we don’t agree on, though I have seen many men and women with a roughly 10 year age gap…5 year age gaps, etc… with the man being older…be very happy. I have not seen the same in the rare cases where the woman was the significantly older person. Mostly because the younger guy was cheating with younger women.

          I will say this, however…I have never seen a strong relationship with and older man and a younger party girl. Those relationships are only strong when both are serious about things such as family, home life, and other such important things. If she is the type who lives for the party, she’s only going to ruin a serious man’s life, and that is my advice to any man I see dallying with a party girl. Leave that one alone.

        6. Evan Marc Katz

          You say a lot of valuable things, but you know what they say about statistics. How you frame them makes a big difference.

          So here are the actual numbers on the age gap within American marriages.

          81% of marriages involve a man no more than 5 years older than his wife.
          7.4% of marriages involve a man who is more than 10 years older than his wife.

          Indeed, the VAST majority of marriages are within a 5 year age range.

          Where you DO have a relevant point that can’t be ignored in light of the original question is this number: 4.3% – the percentage of marriages where a woman is more than 5 years older than her husband.

        7. Emily, to

          Rusty LH,
          We all like to think we’re an exception to the rule, but we’re not. In all seriousness, it’s one of the hardest lessons in life — realizing our own mediocrity.

        8. Russell Hush

          Emily, to

          I 100% agree. 100% of the people cannot be top tier. I’ve never thought differently.

          What mystifies me is how women are so quick to remind men that they are mostly average…and in fact to view the vast majority of men as below average…not worthy, but then turn around and say things like, “Every woman is amazing, special and unique in her own way.” The number of times I have literally witnessed women saying something like that, for instance on shows like The View or The Real, etc., are just astounding. I always think, “do they really believe that?

          “You need to drop that zero and get you a hero,” said many times, by women, referring to men. Probably valid advice, at times. Think it should equally be applied in the other direction?

          I don’t subscribe to any notions that all men are amazing in their own way. Most are average.

          The point, IMHO, is that when you do find somebody who you choose to be with, treat them like that are amazing, even though the odds are, they are average at best. The odds are, so too is the woman…but I’m sure she wants to be treated as if she’s amazing.

          I think this was easier to do for people, when they were less free with their sexuality. It allowed sex to be something rare and special that you shared with your chosen, allowing them to literally be more special.

          It saddens me that so many women bought into the lie that the way to be empowered, and happy, was to act like the worst of men.

          And a side note, historically, men were not lauded for being man-whores. Such men were looked down upon. The term philanderer, exists for a reason. It was not something a man wanted to be called, if he wanted good social standing. Men were looked up to for having a family and taking care of them.

          https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/philanderer

        9. shaukat

          ‘Only if the woman is young and with the man for his money. Middle aged women who have their own money aren’t interested in much older men.’

          Not true at all, unless you’re talking about a twenty-year age difference. I’ve routinely met and known couples where the man was around 6-8 years older than the woman he was dating, and often times they’re professionals who make the same amount of money. Whether they marry is a different issue. I have very rarely met a couple where the woman was more than two years older, if older at all. It’s just a fact of life, I don’t see the point in denying it.

        10. Emily, to

          Shaukat,
          “I’ve routinely met and known couples where the man was around 6-8 years older than the woman he was dating, ”
          It’s who was interested in her and she made peace with it. It’s probably not who she really wanted.

        11. shaukat

          “It’s who was interested in her and she made peace with it. It’s probably not who she really wanted.”

          No, these were attractive women in their early to mid thirties who had plenty of options. I’m not talking about women in their late forties who have little chance of dating younger who are thus forced to make difficult choices. Again, just a fact of life.

          Interesting that you don’t take this position about settling when it comes to leagues pertaining to physical appearance.

        12. Emily, to

          Shakaut,
          “No, these were attractive women in their early to mid thirties who had plenty of options.”
          I can guarantee you that they wanted to date men their own age, not guys six to eight years older. I’m not saying anything new. Women, as a general rule, want to date men their own age. Maybe the guys their own age were dating women in their late 20s. Sometimes you get a job offer that’s not exactly what you want, but you have to eat. As Rusty LH pointed out, it’s not who you want. It’s who wants you.

        13. shaukat

          “Maybe the guys their own age were dating women in their late 20s.”

          Maybe, and what does that tell you? It shows that men in their mid-thirties, all else being equal, don’t have much of a problem dating women in their late-twenties, again demonstrating that quality (and that definition is slightly subjective) men don’t have a problem dating younger. Also, very few people (men and women) get their first choice, so that statement is meaningless.

          And you might not be saying anything new, but it’s still a coping mechanism on your end. You stated in your other comment that a 45 yo woman would be willing to date a younger man, say 35. VERY rarely will a 45 yo woman be able to do that (especially if the guy wants kids) unless she’s a celebrity. Do you know any?

          On the other hand, I have a 44 year old acquaintance who’s in a relationship with a 31 year old woman (No, it’s not for the money). And I believe that before his wife, Evan was in a relationship with a woman ten years younger than him (he can correct me if I’m wrong). The last woman I dated was 26 (I’m 38).

          Again, it might be a bitter pill to swallow, but it’s a fact of life.

        14. Russell Hush

          Emily, to

          That’s just it. Name any hot Instagram model, such as Abigail Ratchford, Demi Rose Mawby, etc…and I am sure every guy would prefer to find a woman like that. Physically speaking of course. But most men will never date one of the truly hottest women. So when they accept reality, and find a woman who DOES want him, does it matter that she is not who he would be with if he had his choice?

          The point is, accepting reality, and making peace with it, in a healthy way. Accepting that while this woman he is with, while not Abigail, is still pretty special…and somebody he can actually enjoy life with.

          I have met many woman who prefer older men. They say this with their own mouths. #BelieveHer.

          But why? People develop such preferences for many different reasons. Preferences for a different race, age, religion, etc… But I do believe that the one thing they have in common is that they come to this preference honestly. Their life experiences inform them that this is the path to happiness.

          You say this as if it matters. It doesn’t. Look up Serpentza on YouiTube. A good looking man from South Africa who moved to China and married a beautiful Chinese doctor. He has a video where he fully admits that if his wife was not what the Chinese men call a, “Left Over,” when they met, she likely would not have chosen him. Chinese men are extremely picky. They do not want women who are divorced, or have kids, or put too much emphasis on career, etc…

          So because Chinese men she would want, did not want her, she expanded her horizons, and accepted him, As a result, they have a great relationship. He does not care about why she chose him…only that she did choose him, and is grateful to have a great man who loves her deeply.

        15. Emily, to

          Shakaut,
          “On the other hand, I have a 44 year old acquaintance who’s in a relationship with a 31 year old woman (No, it’s not for the money).”
          Well, some women get very practical when they look for a long-term partner. They had hot flings with men their own age or a bit younger, but now they’re prioritizing different things, and maybe the older guys can provide those things

        16. SparklingEmerald

          Hi Emily You said “I can guarantee you that they wanted to date men their own age, not guys six to eight years older. ”

          My husband is 8 years older, but I was 59 when we met, and the older you get, the age gap seems smaller. I was open to dating men within 10 years of my age in either direction.

          You also said “It’s who was interested in her and she made peace with it. It’s probably not who she really wanted.”

          Not even remotely true for us. We REALLY wanted each other and there was nothing to “make peace with” We’ve been together 5 and half years now (married for 3) and I couldn’t be happier.

          The older one gets, age gaps seem to shrink, but I always seemed to go for “older”. When I was 17, I had my first serious boyfriend, he was 23, almost 24. I was head over heels in love with a very handsome 42 year old when I was 29, but we didn’t work out , I was heartbroken over that. My ex husband was 2 years younger than me, but he was the exception for me. I never had any hard and fast rules regarding age, just I always seemed to be attracted to older. I’ve always thought that the sexiest age for men was 45. I still do, but now that’s too young for me.

          The only thing you can “guarantee” about women, what they want, etc. is that we are not cookie cutter images of each other.

          I think all this quibbling about everyone wanting a younger mate is rather ludicrous. BOTH partners can’t be younger. As long as a couple is compatible and attracted to each other, doesn’t really matter which one is younger.

  3. 3
    MilkyMae

    “I look younger than I am”. I wish I got a dollar ever time I heard or read that statement. It’s ironic because the statement will make you seem older. Young people are typically less preoccupied with their age and how youthful they look.

    1. 3.1
      Jenn

      I don’t get that either, I think it makes people seem really insecure when they talk about how young they think they look. And no, a lot of the time the people saying that they look younger actually don’t! Why can’t people just be happy with their age and stop trying to be “young”? I remember my 20s well, it was mostly a good time, but I sure as hell don’t wanna date someone that age when I’m ready to settle down at 39. I’d much rather go for someone older than younger.

  4. 4
    Sandra

    Somehow, I doubt there is an abundance of divorced dad types in rural Italy. If the OP can find an opportunity to move to a larger city, she needs to do it.
    OP (Stefania) ignore the deluge of comments already and likely to come about older single women being undesirable. Just be practical and do what will be best for you.

    1. 4.1
      RustyLH

      Sandra, nobody’s saying older women aren’t desirable. Some are, some not as much. But who are they desirable to? That is the million dollar question. We all suffer from the same problem…forgetting that our dating pool consists of those who want to date us, not to who we want to date. But women have it harder because when we translate that to a marriage minded dating pool, and women are right to be confused. The reason being, because men are willing to date down, and sleep down, where women typically aren’t. But the men aren’t nearly as willing to marry down. So this leaves a lot of women confused as to why they aren’t being chosen for marriage.

      I suppose if a man who is a little above average, had many short term relationships with women in the top 20%, he too would find it near impossible to be attracted to a female Oman who was his peer.

      The other issue is the younger guys. I lived in Italy. Many beautiful women there, especially the younger women. Younger men there, have plenty of pretty women to choose from. The odds she will find a younger guy for a serious relationship? Slim…very very slim. But for just sex? That would be easy.

      But yes, as is the case the world over, moving to the city will bring more opportunities. But if she acts like a kid in a candy store, and wastes time with men who are only in it for the short term, that move won’t get her any closer to finding real love.

      1. 4.1.1
        Sandra

        Rusty,
        She never stated she wanted a younger man. She clearly stated she wanted to increase her dating pool. Besides that, what difference does it make, theoretically, what most men want or what they can get? Evan gave her the correct advice – move to an area with a larger population to increase her dating pool. That’s it. No one, not her or any woman in her position, needs to hear more blustering about why men are not interested in women over a certain age for anything serious. You and your buddies are not, or were not, and that is fine. She only needs to be concerned with finding the one man for her. That is all. The end.

        1. RustyLH

          Blustering? LOL It would be helpful to you, to understand that shaming language only works when the man cares.

          The problem I have with the advice to “be open to younger men,” is multi-faceted.

          First, I do understand the two ladder theory. Evan can probably explain it better, but essentially, according to the theory is that men have one ladder (I disagree with this part) but women have two ladders. I think men do also, but I do think there are differences in how men and women interact with their ladders, and who they put where.

          In short, one ladder is friends (friend zone) and one is romance possibilities. If a man is put onto the friend ladder, it is very very hard to move to the romance ladder. Easy to move from romance to friend, but very hard to accomplish the opposite.

          The romance ladder is arranged most desirable on the top run, and least desirable on the bottom. These are all the men in her life who she sees a romantic possibility with. As new men enter her life, they quickly get assigned to a ladder, with most not making the cut to be on the romance ladder.

          She concentrates on the best guys on the ladder. Typically the top 3 to 5, with the top guy being in the driver’s seat. The ball’s in his court, and will be until she decides that he would never commit to her, at which point her may be moved down the ladder, or possibly moved to the other ladder. The #2 guy is now on the top rung, and in the driver’s seat.

          So here’s the problem. While being a really really bad bet, the guys who are younger, and hotter, are very likely to occupy the top spots on the romance ladder. The older guys are a fallback plan. Moving to a big city is only going to cause her to end up single forever, if she is not smart about it. That’s my point. It’s the same advice I gave a high quality man..a friend, in the reply above to “Emily, to.”

          Remember the true story movie, “A beautiful mind?” Remember the conclusion the man came to, that allowed him to develop an economic theory that won him the Nobel? He determined, in effect, that the best outcome happened, when he nor his friends approached the prettiest girl in the group, and instead, chose her friends. In short, going after the best you can get, distracts you from getting the best you can actually get. I learned more about that in my economics classes, where I received straight A’s.

          I’m not blustering, or hating on women…I am trying to point out the blind spot in your two ladder practices. Go after the best you can get…the best you can ACTUALLY get. Don’t waste time on bad bets, no matter how enticing. Like it or not…fair or not…younger men are a bad bet. And this would not be a problem if real courtship were still a thing in our society. Men would not put in the work required, for women they weren’t actually, seriously interested in.

          All the sexual revolution did, is stunt men’s personal growth by allowing the upper tiers of men to be man-whores, and thus made it harder for women to know who was interested in the long haul.

  5. 5
    Bbq

    Sandra

    It’s just that she has a better chance with the guy her own age or older for a serious relationship. So even if she thinks she’s increasing her dating pool by dating these younger guys more often she’s in reality decreasing her pool of men looking for a serious relationship with her. She also mentioned a child being unlikely (which I took to mean still a slim possibility), if she does want that she has way more chance of a mam her own age or older (probably more likely) finding her appealing for that. It’s got nothing to do with her looks or personality, just the reaction of most men on average will be averagely predicted to act.

    There’s a lid for every pot whether it’s a rare diamond jewellery box or a dirty old crock pot – but you can’t force the fit if it ain’t right.

  6. 6
    Sandra

    All of that is true, but the fact that she met a younger man whom she liked and who reciprocated does not mean she was deluding herself. I believe, and she admits, her location is a limiting factor and that she was trying to be open-minded.

  7. 7
    Sandra

    @Rusty
    “But yes, as is the case the world over, moving to the city will bring more opportunities. But if she acts like a kid in a candy store, and wastes time with men who are only in it for the short term, that move won’t get her any closer to finding real love.”
    Probably not, but I guess that is for her to figure out.

    1. 7.1
      RustyLH

      True, and I never said differently. We are all here just tossing in our 2 cents. But, in the end, you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink. We all have to make our own choices, and live with the consequences of those choices.

  8. 8
    Ames

    Rusty, See above why I found women to be less risky with age. Women 20-50 were looking for commitment. Actually that’s a big part of why I was single so late: Most guys in their 20’s until mid 30’s wanted to drink, smoke and hookup. Hard to know who’s gonna be husband material before 35 or so. I invested my efforts in work and building stability. Sadly all of the gay/bi women I dated had or wanted kids. I had already raised a sibling When mom died. I was tired.
    I tried to fish in the right pools. Not surprised Women in clubs wanted to hook up with handsome guys. Clubs are for horny short term thinkers, and typically immature. Even if a girl wasn’t wanting to have kids with her hookup why not choose the one with a better face and full head of hair? Instincts tell her to despite not really needing his sperm. The fact he’s clubbing instead of reading, socializing, learning or doing a side job shows he’s as you’d say, A Bad Bet. I’ve met many quality people in libraries, at work, church, thru mutual friends. Incidentally I’ll be marrying a 5’4 Japanese American guy 20 years my senior. He earns a little less than me and most everything he earns goes to his adult daughters who like many millennials, are failing to launch. On paper he isn’t impressive, but he’s my best friend. He chose my 4’9 self—who no matter how much I dieted and exercised could never achieve the long lean body of tall athletic peers. We’re ridiculously happy but good news doesn’t get the most clicks. I have lots of friends like me. They just won’t look like they’ve stepped out of Maxim. Choose wisely.

  9. 9
    K

    I think Evan’s advice was quite sensible. In short, be sensible in your approach, hopeful, but not too pessimistic would be my guidance as in most things in life. When I was job hunting or looking into colleges I didn’t put all my hopes into my reach options. I had a good mindset about where I would fit most, but still tried for beyond. Likewise in dating I knew my value was higher amongst older men and that a lot of the time things would not pan out with younger men because of their timing or maturity. However I have a job today that years ago I thought was way out of my league and my boyfriend is 4 years younger than me. I didn’t have a preference for younger men as I didn’t think they were serious and preferred closer to my age if not a few years above. He’s in fact very relationship minded. I’m just glast that I wasn’t only focusing on outliers, but it’s okay not to overthink it and not have this mindset that ALL younger men wouldn’t be a good fit for you. I’m sure Jimmy Fallon’s wife is glad she didn’t take that view as well as Evan’s wife.

  10. 10
    Noquay

    In one way, I feel for the writer. Because rural areas have become, (in the US anyway), a repository for those who wanted to leave but couldn’t, or live there because they cannot afford to be anywhere else, on line dating in rural America is downright scary and frustrating. If you are educated and have/had a career yet do not wish to live urban, your choices are few. Sounds like that’s a problem in other places too. Given that, I’d suggest the writer go older rather than younger and consider long distance. Evan mentioned being in the same place emotionally. Because men mature later than women, a 32 yo man will nearly always be in a different place than a 40 yo woman. An older man will indeed value you more and is more likely to treat you with respect. Yes, it may be harder to find a healthy older man but sadly that’s also now the case with supposedly appropriate aged men given today’s obesity/poor lifestyle epidemic.
    To address some of the other commenters embarks about younger women-older men, mixed collar marriage, income disparity marriage vs assortative mating, it’s really a matter of compatibility. Differences in level of self-care, drive, ambition, intellectual curiosity, responsibility, overall lifestyle; gross differences in these are what destroy or preclude rships.

    1. 10.1
      Bbq

      Noquay

      So only dummies who want to leave but can’t because they’re too poor (and too dumb be “educated”) live in rural areas? Wow.

      If that’s what someone who is “educated” and has had a career (unlike all the successful business people who operate out of rural areas?) sees then the problem is their snobby attitude and feeling of superiority more than the actual reality. They’re probably also an egocentric academic – but definitely someone anyone who is actually halfway intellegent either rural or otherwise would avoid, so I’m not surprised they’d have trouble dating.

      1. 10.1.1
        Russell Hush

        Yeah, that post made me fall out of my chair. Cities may have some very educated people, but so do rural areas, and small towns. Very educated, and even wealthy people live there because they want no part of the big cities. Why? Big cities are a repository for many dumb, and even lawless people. There’s a reason you find bars on the windows of many homes and apartments in big cities, but almost never see that in small towns, or rural areas.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          This comment makes me fall out of my chair.

        2. Bbq

          So true.
          From the beginning of cities the rich and powerful have always sought to live outside the cities that bring them wealth. The reality is, super busy cities suck and always have. Even the “good areas” have what? an extra 20 metres of lawn space that that ends up being pretty much the difference in the “quality” of the area and hundreds of thousands of dollars of difference in the price – it’s for suckers but whatever.

        3. Emily, to

          BBQ,
          “From the beginning of cities the rich and powerful have always sought to live outside the cities that bring them wealth. ”
          That’s actually not true. If you look at cities like Cleveland and Cincinnati, Ohio, and Louisville, Kentucky, the people with money used to live downtown or within a couple of miles of it. In Louisville, the area is called Old Louisville. The affluent eventually moved to the suburbs.
          “The reality is, super busy cities suck and always have.”
          While they definitely have their downside, bigger cities draw more companies and offer more employment opportunities, which is the point Noquay was making. Bigger cities draw a more cosmopolitan, educated crowd whereas smaller towns offer fewer employment opportunities and tend to be more homogeneous.

        4. Bbq

          Emily to

          I’m talking about the real rich not just those who live in wealthy suburbs, I’m talking the owners of companies not just now but in the past all over the world – the estates and such they’ve had away from the cities where their businesses operate, not just in America but anywhere from all times. From the industrial revolution company owners both in America and elsewhere and the Lords and such (or old money in America) before that with business holdings in cities with large homes elsewhere, the Fuedal lords etc. the politicians in Rome with large estates and vineyards outside the bustling city, similar goes for Ancient Greece. You get the idea. The people in those early American cities you mentioned hardly qualify, they may have got there in the end by making their fortune in the city, but once they had it and if it was secure, you can bet they would have been gone like the rest.

          The second point you highlight about the companies drawing employees to the cities kind of highlights the 1st one about the super rich, those people drawn to the city aren’t super rich, they work for the super rich. Also while your average white collar city worker may be more cosmopolitan (since that is the definition of someone living in a city, kinda hard to be that elsewhere) I honestly don’t agree that their likely to be any more interesting to talk to. Most white collar finance workers or those in tech are not particular well educated or interested in subjects outside their own sphere (if at all) and most academic types are EXTREMELY homogeneous in ideas and opinions and unbelievably boring to listen to.
          But some people are impressed by those types I guess. Well different strokes hey?

        5. Emily, to

          BBQ,
          ” … most academic types are EXTREMELY homogeneous in ideas and opinions and unbelievably boring to listen to. But some people are impressed by those types I guess.”
          Yes, I would agree that they are homogeneous, but noquay specifically mentioned educated women, which I am. Now, I don’t want to talk about chemical engineering for 2 hours, but academics and white collar workers tend to, on average (and I’m making a sweeping statement), read a bit more and pay attention to the world a bit more. So we can talk about the new Noah Baumbach movie or what’s in Guardian. Whereas people in small towns (and I’m again making a sweeping statement) talk about their families, their homes and their religions, and I can only talk about that stuff for so long before I zone out. I once had an almost 30-minute conversation with a small town guy about how he mowed his grass. (I should have extracted myself from that, but I thought he was kind of cute.:)) Which brings me to my next point … another sweeping statement … small town guys tend to be a more masculine … but you can’t have everything. 🙂

        6. Bbq

          Emily to

          Oh I didn’t just mean hearing career talk for 2 hours was boring, I meant they were homogenous in general opinion often as well – for instance when talking about the Gaurdian (some kind of news?) or some well reviewed movie or show. Now (some) rural people may say some dumb shit, but at least their dumb shit can be funny to listen to or original, at least more so than the dumb shit said by the cosmopolitan folk.

        7. Evan Marc Katz

          Please stop.

        8. Emily, to

          BBQ,
          I didn’t say anything about the level of intelligence. I don’t equate education level with intelligence. Those are 2 different things. Just the core topics of conversation (and thus the core values) of small town residents … I don’t share. Just less in common.

      2. 10.1.2
        Buck25

        Shhhh! You can’t say that, bbq, you’ll annoy all the “progressives” here.

        Remember:
        “I unironically embrace the bashing of rural Americans, They as a group are bad people who made bad life decisions. We should shame them into supporting the city!” Jackson Kernion, grad student, Cal-Berkley, certified “genius” and legend in his own mind.

        Gee thanks, Noquay, for also pointing out how utterly worthless rural Americans like me really are! I had no idea! I’m supposed to apologize for not living in one of your favored urban concrete antheaps? Sorry, I’ll pass.

      3. 10.1.3
        Noquay

        BBQ
        If you compare the numbers of available educated singles in rural vs urban/suburban places you’ll find that uneducated and often also very politically conservative, very conservative religious folk. Yep, there are great small business owners and some others, some great retirees, they tend to come married and stay married. When most educated women find themselves single in a small town or rural area, they tend to leave fairly soon. This is part of a phenomenon, oft called rural brain drain, that has been mentioned by many authors who write about contemporary rural life such as Janisse Ray, Wendell Berry, and Joe Salatin, just to begin with. Tis not just me experiencing this. Rural communities, including my own, are dying in droves. The last town I lived in, a post boom bust town, was notorious as a “last resort” community in otherwise expensive Colorado. Most women who found themselves single either left or chose to stay alone; this encompassed women of all ages and socioeconomic levels. I though something was wrong with me until I started really talking with my Sistas. When I lived in Montana (Bozeman), years back, I obtained actuarial data from a bank vice prez friend of mine and discovered single, professional or high education women ages 40-60 outnumbered similar men about 10:1. I did this because I was stymied after putting in a lot of work getting out there, meeting folk yet still found very few datable men. I’m not saying these folk are dummies or inferior, I’m saying that the values and lifestyles do not match well with most educated women or most women period. Not better or worse, but different enough that a rship is not possible. What I’m seeing having come back to my farm after nearly 20 yrs absence is going to local restaurants where most patrons are ORV riders, serious smokers, generally down at heel guys whose language makes even me blush. Used to be families at these places. They (the guys) hate environmentalism, hate everything liberal, hate wearing COVID masks although most would be considered most vulnerable to it. I’ve already been criticized for not allowing motorized vehicles on my land although they’ve caused ruts, gotten stuck trying to drive in my wetlands, have stolen from my orchards, and dumped trash which I now have to remove, haul, pay for myself. They hate that I’m “managing” my land mostly as old growth and as a wildlife corridor because they routinely clearcut theirs. They could all have Einstein level IQs for all I know but with that sort of attitude, it doesn’t matter. Sadly, working class folk have changed dramatically over past decades. Used to have a couple who unionized the mines over for coffee every Sunday. We were the only ones whom they could talk to about political issues. He only had an 8th grade education but lifted himself up, taught himself English as a child, educated himself, survived an abusive parent, strove to do better and did. His extensive library, bought by very hard earned dollars, was willed to us and is now housed in a university archives. So different from the rage filled, anti-intellectual bar and motorhead crowd of today. Women like myself who also lifted herself up out of poverty and an abusive upbringing, worked hard to get an education, worked hard to lift up and inspire her students often have no choice but to remain alone where we want to be or be partnered in a place we hate to be. Wish there were other options. Again, I feel for the woman who wrote to Evan, I really get it.

        1. RustyLH

          A result of Agenda 21. No, it’s not a conspiracy theory. It’s literally on the U.N. Website, and you can read about it in many other places. It’s a plan to push the majority of people into the cities. Without a plan to limit population growth, it’s actually necessary, while also despicable.

          At least it is being done in a manner that is not actually forcing people to move…at least not by physical force. They are just removing the incentives to live in rural areas…at least in the industrialized “1st world,” countries, like the U.S.

          Also, it’s not just women who find it harder to date, and find a life partner, in the rural areas. Small towns are a little better, and bring pros and cons…everyone knows your business. But then, anyone you date from that small town, you will have a better understanding of who they are. If he’s a player, you know that going in.

          Moving to the city brings pros and cons. More people yes, but can also provide a false sense of abundance. In the age of hookup culture, the top 20% of men, so desired by women, end up with the real abundance in dating. What appears to be abundance for women, is actually not…at least not without pitfalls. Suddenly there are all these hot guys around. But there are even more women around whom these men are willing to date and sleep with. The old 80-20 rule. 80% of the women chasing after 20% of the men. I wouldn’t get too caught up in the numbers. It’s more of a guide to understanding the dynamics.

          Think of it like this…I tell men I know, who use dating sites to meet women in places like Ukraine, Philippines, Japan, China, Brazil, etc… They get onto these sites, and find that younger women don’t have the age barriers that many Western women do. So they feel a sense of abundance. Even really young women respond to messages. But, I warn them…that’s a false sense of abundance they are experiencing. And I especially warn them against bring these young girls here. Even IF he were able to find one who is going to be genuine with him…once he brings her here, she will be like a kid in a candy store. So I warn them against bad bets. It’s not that this older guy can’t find a younger woman to have a really great relationship, it’s that it is very unlikely. Instead of wasting time responding with that very beautiful 22yo…invest time in the women in their 30s, and 40s.

          When people feel a sense of abundance in dating, they less incentivized to make sacrifices in what they will “settle,” for. A woman who is a 7, won’t “settle” for a man who’s a 7, when she is going on dates, and sleeping with men who are 8-10. She believes she has abundance that she does not. It wastes her time, and distracts her from the path that will allow her to build a life with the man who is actually available to her. Thus we now have an epidemic of cat ladies, and incels.

          The biggest lies told to women are:

          1. You have all the time in the world.
          2. You can have it all.
          3. Sexual promiscuity is empowerment.

        2. Emily, to

          Noquay,
          “If you compare the numbers of available educated singles in rural vs urban/suburban places you’ll find that uneducated and often also very politically conservative, very conservative religious folk.”
          This is exactly what I have found, living in smallish towns for years. If I had the money, I’d move to a bigger city. To provide a perfect example, someone I was speaking with yesterday said his way of dealing with the protesters would be to shoot them.

        3. Bbq

          Well if the authors you read and enjoy are saying it too…..

          I’m still getting the feeling the main problem is you.

  11. 11
    Noquay

    Buck
    BTW, as a ghetto rat until age 10, I promised myself never again. Since then I’ve lived in suburbia, within a city limits, near a couple of smallish towns. I currently live on a 100 yo farm, live very simply, sans utilities. As a semi retired Prof (Ecology, Chemistry, Sustainability), I am rehomesteading this place, rehabbing the orchards, trying to fix old buildings solo and sadly, guarding “my” land against Motorhead onslaughts. Rather than engage in pop culture, I read voraciously, cut wood, grow food, bird, improve habitat for wildlife. No dummy. I do not think you’re a dummy; actually you’re very articulate and it’s great to hear from someone nearer my age. Sadly, you’rea rare exception to what has become the rule. Things are amiss in much of rural America.

  12. 12
    Noquay

    Rusty LH
    Changes from small family farms to very large corporate contract farms have depopulated and marginalized rural America. The average age of farmers is something like 65 with some farmers begging young, unrelated folk to take over their farms to avoid them being sold for development. Here, highly mechanized logging has eliminated the jobs of many loggers. The loss of a local small scale mill means that those of us with woods still have to buy our 2×4’s from somewhere else. We went from a vibrant, completely self reliant community to one relying on WalMart jobs plus a long commute and no community except TV and bar culture. This has occurred all over. Hardly anyone gathers or grows food although we are in a great growing zone and there are apple trees all over, maples to tap for syrup and sugar, abundant firewood, lots of native berries, great fishing and hunting. Most want everything pre-packaged, convenient, and wants passive, commodified, entertainment though folk can afford little of this. I do enjoy the occasional trip to a small city for good restaurants and bookstores but there are three really big issues with city life; a complete dependence on the cash economy, effects of both climate change and pandemics. One of the reasons I’ve been so little affected by either is because of where and how I live. These are not passing problems, both are here for the long term. Nope, I’m not an ammo hoarding survivalist, just a scientist with a good ability to read climate and disease projections plus a whole bunch of useful skills.
    Dating success in either city or country is very dependent on your own values and lifestyle vs that of your “peers”. Regardless of the available pool, one should not live a life that you do not want just to be in a rship and you should BE the person you wish to date.

    1. 12.1
      sylvana

      Noquay,

      That’s uncontrolled capitalism for you. The big guys eat the small guys. It always makes me shake my head. Because the rural, conservative people who support this system the most are also the ones suffering from it the most and complaining about the outcome it causes the most. But lord forbid someone mentions changing the system.

      I’ve lived in the US 26 years now. But having been born and raised in Europe, this attitude boggles my mind.

      1. 12.1.1
        Noquay

        Sylvana
        Yep, it’s a strange socioeconomic “Stockholm Syndrome”.

        1. Bbq

          Noquay and Sylvana

          But the wage slaves of the big cities who complain about trying to pay exorbabitant rent and such and who’s working day never truly ends support a system that will change that for them?
          Which one is that lol.

          Noquay
          Your dead arse right about one thing – this conversation and the opinions within will probably not be appealing to most real honest rural folks.

          Also where did you get “be the person you want to date” as a rule? That doesn’t sound like sound advice to me. Who in their right mind wants to end up living with another version of themselves after already having had to put up with one of them their whole lives?

  13. 13
    Ames

    It would be fun to have Karl R on this thread. I miss his logic and interesting musings.

  14. 14
    Henry

    When I was in my 20s, I was dating women in their 30s and 40s and 50s. I don’t see why it would be unrealistic for this person to date a man who is 8 years younger or more, at her age.

    1. 14.1
      RustyLH

      I don’t think anyone said she couldn’t find dates with younger men. You kind of highlight the problem. You “dated” women…womEn…in their 30s, womEn in their 40s, and womEn in their 50s. It’s likely that many of them would have gladly married you. But you dated womEn. How many of those dates turned into marriage?

      Combine that with all the surveys, census data, and what we see with our own eyes, and we are left with one conclusion. Yes, a woman might win the lottery and find that very very rare younger man who wants to marry, but it’s like winning the lottery, and anyone who focuses on winning the lottery as a retirement plan, is likely to stay poor. A woman who focuses on younger men, is likely to end up with one short meaningless relationship after another, and alone in the end.

      Life isn’t fair, the world isn’t fair, and never will be. We must accept what we can’t change, or end up frustrated, and bitter.

  15. 15
    sylvana

    Rusty,

    so, according to you, a woman has the choice of being in a relationship with an old, wrinkly geezer who she’s not really attracted to and who is very unlikely to be able to keep up with her sexually, if at all even in other ways, or stay single.

    Well, I guess that’s not that hard a choice. Single it is. That way, she can at least have affairs with the young hotties and get some joy out of the opposite sex.

    This woman wasn’t looking for a younger man. She was simply asking if she should keep an open mind to younger men and expand her age range. She had her doubts herself. She specifically mentioned that there is no one within a ten-year older age-range available to date. What do you want her to do? Date men old enough to be her father?

    Evan actually posted the statistics above. According to those, the high majority of people actually do marry within a few year age-range.

    As much as you guys love to point out how desirable older men are and how undesirable older women are, reality remains that older, successful women tend to choose to stay single rather than marry someone they’re not attracted to. They have no reason to marry someone they’re not attracted to. They don’t need the money, and companionship can be had in other ways. Would they like to be in a relationship? Certainly. But not at all cost. They would like to be in a relationship with a man they are attracted to and preferably within their age range. You can tell them all you want that only men 15-20 years older are interested in them. That’s not what those women care to have, so they’re not missing out on anything if they don’t have it.

    1. 15.1
      RustyLH

      Instead of going, “ReeeEEEE!!!! You should read my posts a little closer, and not project what you think I’m saying, into them. It makes dialogue a little more constructive.

      Also, the numbers Evan posted, are pretty much what I stated. 1 out of 5 marriages have an age gap over 5 years. Meaning most, 4 out 5 are within 5 years. About a third of the 1 in 5 involve a man who is significantly older. That’s pretty much what I said.

      Nowhere in my comments did I promote a relationship with men 15 to 20 years older. In fact, if you read closer, you will see that I tell men who do pursue that, that it’s not a good idea. It’s a bad bet. You will find that in the post below the 10.1.3 post by Noquay.

      Nowhere did I say that the woman can’t date younger men, or be open to them, but I did point out that with younger men being a bad bet, that even if she moves to the city, and finds herself feeling like a kid in a candy store, that if she concentrates on the younger men, it is likely to not work out. When looking for a serious relationship, you can only really concentrate on one person at a time. If you are concentrating on somebody who is likely to ghost on you, you have to accept the consequences of that, without feeling like a victim. If some 50 year old guy ignores the 45 year old women, to concentrate on a 29 year old girl, and a few years later, she ghosts on him because she was only there for his money, he only has himself to blame. He should have known better. If a woman wants to just bang younger guys, and then retire to her 50 cats when she’s hit the wall, and guys no longer want sex from her, that’s her choice. Now, if you care to discuss those points, I’m all ears…or eyes in this case.

    2. 15.2
      jo

      Sylvana, I love your comments.

      Some men think they’re wielding a weapon over women’s heads by saying that if we dare to want this / not want that, then *gasp* we’ll end up SINGLE. As if that were the worst fate that could befall women. It’s just not. I was going to say ‘not anymore,’ but maybe all throughout history, it never WAS a bad fate for women to be single, no matter how much society has tried to convince us otherwise and to limit opportunities for women (including jobs and safety).

      But what’s changed more recently is that, not only can women earn their own keep, which they’ve been able to do for decades, all the shame and stigma of not being married is fading away. Also, we recognize overtly when someone is trying to shame us or threaten us… but the threat is nonexistent, because the people making such threats are not people we would ever want in our lives in the first place.

      Why do happy unmarried women seem to be such a threat to some men? And why do they think that they’re insulting us by saying that they wouldn’t want to marry someone like us or that we’re behaving unattractively? As if we would want to attract men like that.

      1. 15.2.1
        Emily, to

        Jo,
        “Why do happy unmarried women seem to be such a threat to some men?”
        A few of my former male co-workers who I would describe as friends got annoyed with me when another guy we worked with asked me out and I said no. These guy were either married or had girlfriends and their interest in me was platonic. I remember one slamming his hand down on his desk when I said I wasn’t interested enough to say yes. I think, in his mind, if you had an offer on the table, you took it. Or maybe it was something about the rejection that set him off. And this guy wasn’t friends with the guy who asked me out, so I don’t understand it.

        1. RustyLH

          That’s an outlier. Most men do not actually care that much about other people’s love lives.

          I can relate a story from my time in the Navy. A guy I worked with had invited me over to his apartment for pizza, beer and a movie. I didn’t think much of it really. This was normal. People came and went, due to transfers, so you have to be proactive about making friends. We had just recently returned from a deployment. I had run into him, and his wife, and unknown to me, her wife’s best friend at a party, right after the deployment.

          Turns out it was his wife’s idea to invite me. Her friend had taken an interest in me. Her friend was not at all attractive to me. Every time I was invited, there were 5 of us there. Add in a guy who was interested in the friend, but he wasn’t in great shape, and didn’t have a very attractive face. Mind you he was not hideous…just not in great shape as I was, and the husband. We both worked out with weights, and ran many miles to keep in shape for the military. Unlike this other guy, my face is very symmetrical, and I’ve never had trouble getting dates.

          At this point, however, I was single and OK with that. A deployment for 6 months on a Carrier makes you value some alone time, for a while. I enjoyed riding my motorcycle. Put hundreds of miles per week on it.

          Anyway, I soon started noticing that a match making thing was going on. I resisted it, as I was NOT attracted to the girl. I was in great shape, and she was not. Not at all.

          The wife put her husband up to confronting me, right in front of everyone, as we sat on the floor, in a circle, playing a game. Why did I change my seating position? And eventually…why was I being standoffish to the friend? Would I go on a date with her.

          I wasn’t rude, but made it clear that I was not interested…at all, and no, I would not be going on a date with her. I then suggested she go on a date with the other guy, who was clearly interested. The girl got a disgusted look on her face. Yeah, my feelings exactly…I wasn’t anymore interested in her, than she was, in the other guy.

          The wife was not at all happy with me, and made this very known…and the husband then asked me to leave. Let me know at work that there wouldn’t be anymore invites. Even at work, he was standoffish. Why? He had no good answer when I confronted him. He didn’t actually care if I went out with the girl…that was his wife’s thing.

          To say that this whole thing bothered me, would be a huge understatement, to the point that I made it clear to those I knew, that I did not ever want to be invited someplace, as a way to introduce me to a girl. I would find my own girlfriends. I did not want a repeat of that fiasco.

          But let me ask this. Do women actually know anything about history? I hear women, especially on this board, whining about the same thing, over and over and over again…about society’s pressure on women to be in a relationship. This did happen. Women were pressured to be in relationships.

          The question is, why don’t women understand that the same applies to men. Throughout history, if a man did not get married, people thought something was wrong with him. Is he gay? Is he anti-social? Is something wrong with him that he can’t attract a wife?

          And it hurt them in many ways, if they stayed single. No invites to many functions, unless they were going to try to introduce you to a woman. It could affect your professional career, and it certainly affected your ability to get elected to political office.

          If you wanted to be seen as an upstanding member of the community…get married and provide for a family.

          Mothers, Aunts, Grandmothers, etc…all constantly asking when you were going to find a nice girl, and give them grand-babies, etc…

          20 years in the Navy, getting to know more men than is normal as a result…and not one of them ever really cared about the love lives of other people. Not unless it was a close friend they were trying to hook up.

          If I had to guess, I would say the guy’s reaction indicates that there was a bet going on. The guy who was angry, had bet that you would accept the request for a date. If he wasn’t good friends with the guy doing the asking, then this is the only thing that would explain his reaction. It may seem distasteful to you, but his reaction seems more connected to losing $50, than actually caring about your love life.

          I am curious, though. Why do women always play the role of victim? Why do they adopt that mentality so easily? That’s what I want to know.

          Are you aware that most men today, find that really distasteful? Do you not understand that it is that distaste, that turned so many men off to the Gillette add? Men are tired of being blamed for everything. Could it possibly be that you attitude comes out…peeks out, and men see this?

          Evan might have a lot more access to articles and research on this, because I know for a fact this is a thing. I have heard many men talk about this. They are tired of trying to always do the right thing, only to have the default attitude of women be that men are all toxic A-holes, and women are their oppressed victims. Men as a whole, are beyond tired of that. If you find yourself thinking that way, it is likely that men see it, and are turned off.

          Men love women that love men…for who they are. Women who see the best in men, and accept that they aren’t perfect, but are still pretty awesome. I believe I once stated that THIS very thing caused so many men to be attracted to Asian girls..in Asia. They seem to still have that default love of men, and default respect for them…and show huge appreciation, and recognition of the things that make men different from women. THIS is what makes them attractive. Not some false notion that they are subservient. Modern Asian women are not subservient. Not at all.

          There ARE Western women like this also, and they tend to attract a lot of male attention…but there does seem to be fewer and fewer, with so many Western women being obsessed with “girl power.”

        2. Emily to

          Rusty, LH,
          You certainly were not required to date the woman, but you did mention over and over how you didn’t find her appealing, almost as if you were offended that someone would try to set you up with her. But I agree that your friends acted like jerks in the aftermath of it.
          “And it hurt them in many ways, if they stayed single. No invites to many functions …”
          It’s the same for women. Single women often don’t get invited to things if the rest of the people at the party are married. Her presence is threatening. Her undercarriage isn’t claimed! 🙂
          “If I had to guess, I would say the guy’s reaction indicates that there was a bet going on.”
          I don’t think that had anything to do with it. The three guys I mentioned (the 2 guy friends and the one who asked me out) were not friends themselves. I think these were two guys who were triggered by my rejecting another guy, as if somehow it was personal.
          “I believe I once stated that THIS very thing caused so many men to be attracted to Asian girls..in Asia.”
          Oh, geez. You lost me with this comment. Peace out.

        3. RustyLH

          Emily, to

          “You certainly were not required to date the woman, but you did mention over and over how you didn’t find her appealing, almost as if you were offended that someone would try to set you up with her.”

          No, not offended, just not interested. And yes, they could have been nicer about the whole thing. But the point was really that everything you women experience, we men also experience. This isn’t a woman thing, it’s a single thing. For some reason, people who are couples, want to see singles no longer be single.

          “Single women often don’t get invited to things if the rest of the people at the party are married. Her presence is threatening. Her undercarriage isn’t claimed!”

          Same for men, and married women often hate for their men to have single friends…especially if he has hot girlfriends, and especially hot single girlfriends. By girlfriends, I mean women he dates, even if not seriously. The thinking is that those girls have friends. The last thing she wants, is for her man to be hanging out at his single friend’s house, where hot single women may be hanging out also.

          There’s a theory that women, even when married, judge every man that comes into her life, as either worthy for mating, or not worthy, and these are ranked. If one who is worthy, and is “better” than her present man, then shows interest, and eventually shows interest in long term…her marriage could be in trouble. Her natural instinct is to seek out the best mate she can find…period. At least subconsciously this is known to her, and this is why she assumes her man would find better, and thus leave her. And, it does happen. Both men and women do this.

          I think you are wrong about your friend’s reaction, however. His reaction only makes sense if he had something riding on your accepting that offer. The only thing that makes sense is that the two guys knew the third was interested, and the other two made a bet on whether or not you would accept. None of them had to be friends for this to take place.

          A lesser likely scenario is that the other guy knew you were friends with those guys, and he had asked them to help him get a date, and offered some money if it worked out.

          That reaction was not normal. Something else was going on there.

        4. Bbq

          RustyLH

          Yes, women do love to pretend they didn’t equally play matchmaker through all history and try to push this person with that into very stereotypical roles and so the given society would keep running and those roles would be continued and they would be provided for in such. Or if they admit it happened then it was all some nefarious Jedi mind trick on the part of men who had them fooled into taking part in it.

          I would suggest the playing of the victim that’s so prevelant is from a similar instinct as the want and expectation to be provided for. Eg – I’m the victim here so men must be compassionate and support the lifestyle and exact system I want to live by, else they are “oppressing” me. Which all amounts to – what way can I best get the life I want – and what way can I get men to take part in making that happen. Even if it’s not conscious.

          I call it instinct tho as well I might, because it’s current incarnation is not a rational long term strategy – it’s all take with nothing of equal value being given in return and because of this it’s already begun to fall apart, tho most don’t see it (tho many do).

        5. Emily, to

          Rusty LH,
          “The last thing she wants, is for her man to be hanging out at his single friend’s house, where hot single women may be hanging out also.”
          Well, it probably isn’t a good idea for a married man to be hanging out without his wife with a single male friend and a bunch of hot, single women. But if the married guy is hanging out at a party with his wife (or without) and there are a mixture of single men and women and couples, that shouldn’t be an issue. Some people just want it to be couples.
          “women, even when married, judge every man that comes into her life, as either worthy for mating, or not worthy … and if he’s “better” than her present man and shows interest …her marriage could be in trouble.”
          I don’t believe that. Most happily married women aren’t scanning the room for a better mate. Now, there is a theory that women know within seconds of meeting a man whether or not she wants to sleep with him. That is possible, and I’m sure men experience something similar with women.
          “The only thing that makes sense is that the two guys knew the third was interested, and the other two made a bet on whether or not you would accept. None of them had to be friends for this to take place.”
          THEY DIDN’T KNOW EACH OTHER. It was a huge company, with different shifts. When I said the guy’s name who asked me out and described him to both of my male friends, independent of the other (because my male friends didn’t know each other, either. Different departments, both working in different parts of a sprawling compound), they had no idea who this guy was.
          “A lesser likely scenario is that the other guy knew you were friends with those guys, and he had asked them to help him get a date, and offered some money if it worked out.”
          He did actually ask someone to help him get the date, but it wasn’t my two guy friends, and, yes, he did tell some of the guys he worked directly with he had asked me out. They told me that. They were pressing me for details because they were gossipy and seemed more amused than anything else. Maybe he had a bet with them but not my two guy friends.

        6. RustyLH

          Emily, to

          Regardless, his reaction makes no sense. He didn’t get mad because he can’t stand the thought of a woman turning a man down, or couldn’t stand the thought of you being single…just because.

          Something caused him to be invested in this. I was not there, so I can only guess as to why. I suppose, if he has been made aware that you are looking for a man, and then you turned this guy down, it frustrated him in this instance, for some reason.

          A guy might react that way, if he worked with a woman who talked to him a lot about her man woes, and then she turned down a date with a man who was interested. He might do this if, for instance, he felt that the guy was actually a decent match for her, and she was just being too picky…more picky than she had a right to. Or maybe he was frustrated because he would have to listen to more man woes?

          My ex did have a friend who did nothing but whine about her man woes. Yeah, I truly wished that she would just find a guy so it would stop. I knew that wasn’t going to happen anytime soon, so I spoke up, and told her to just stop it. It was that annoying. It was that constant. Never experienced it to that level before.

          All I know is that the guy’s reaction isn’t normal. In normal circumstances, we don’t actually care whether you are with somebody, or not. I would even go so far as to say that with most men these days wanting sex without marriage, and getting it…they would prefer you remain single…and available. The last thing they want is for all the single women to get into serious, monogamous relationships. Who would they hook up with if that happened?

      2. 15.2.2
        Buck25

        “ Why do happily unmarried women seem to be such a threat to some men?”

        I couldn’t tell you. I might ask why men going their own way and happy with doing so seem to be a threat to some women? As far as I’m concerned, do whatever you’re happy doing (both genders). If you want to date, date whoever is willing to date you. If you want a relationship, have it with whoever is willing to have one with you. If you want to be single and that makes you happy, then do so. I don’t see that it’s any of my business. The older I get, the wiser I think it is to live and let live, instead of wasting each other’s time telling people who are happy the way they are that they should be something else.

        1. Emily, to

          Buck25,
          “I might ask why men going their own way and happy with doing so seem to be a threat to some women?”
          That sentiment has never been expressed on this site. Whenever a male poster has threatened that either he and/or all his buddies are thisclsoe to mgtow, the female posters have said, “Ok.”

        2. RustyLH

          Emily, to

          That’s not entirely accurate. I’ve seen people say they are MGTOW, and that is usually not met kindly.

          I googled the term black pill, and Quora came up as the top result. So I clicked on it. All the top responses went on and on about things they knew nothing about. Academics who posted. Talking about the Red Pill community, and MGTOW, and getting it completely wrong. Simply made me shake my head in resignation. We can’t progress, because most people don’t want the truth. The majority of the world it seems, prefers the blue pill…a lie, but way more comfortable to believe.

        3. Emily, to

          RustyLH,
          “That’s not entirely accurate. I’ve seen people say they are MGTOW, and that is usually not met kindly.”
          I was referring to the women on this site. We had one male poster who kept announcing his departure from women and dating and threatening a mass exodus by men in general. He was waiting for a response from the female posters that never materialized. If the men who make up mgtow could get the women they wanted, they’d jump ship in a second.

        4. Bbq

          Emily, to

          Your right they would jump ship to non mgtow (if my understanding of not having relationships with women is basically required to be truly mgtow). However many of the problems they discuss and valid points they make (yes they say insane and weird things too) would remain and no doubt would still be problems that get talked about. Just having a relationship doesnt somehow make men blind to them.

        5. RustlyLH

          Emily, to

          Your comment isn’t unexpected. Like the majority of people, you don’t actually know anything about MGTOW. The most important point is that like any other group, they aren’t monolithic. Are all feminists man hating lesbians? No, of course not. But your misconceptions aren’t entirely your fault. A simple Google search will find many people, who have the bully pulpit, pontificating on what MGTOW is, or what Red Pill is, but the reality is, in TL;DR form, is that what they are doing would be the same as if they wrote an article claiming all Feminists were man hating lesbians.

          MGTOW come in many forms. Some have decided that it just isn’t worth it, and swear off women completely. Then you have the ones who will hook up with women for sex, but won’t go any further than that. With Tinder a thing, that’s actually possible. There are not ugly men. I know women comfort themselves with the belief that all MGTOW are just ugly losers who can’t get a pretty girl, as exhibited by your comment. But it’s simply not true.

          Others will date women, but want no part of living with them. They retain their independence, and often bail from the relationship before it gets real. And then you have MGTOW who will go so far as to live with a girl, but refuse to get married.

          What they all do share in common, is the belief that the system is rigged against them, when it comes to women, divorce, child custody, child support, etc…

          They also have a keen awareness of something called Monkey Branching, which marriage does not protect him from.

          MGTOW doesn’t necessarily mean that they have completely sworn off women, and nor does it mean they hate women. It mostly means that they reject traditional views that the man must sacrifice for a woman…put all his desires and happiness aside, to put the woman first. They are basically saying, I will put my first. I have one life to live, and I want to be as happy as possible in that life.

          There is a lot more, but the fact is, I did see comments that were basically dismissive of MGTOWs like what you see in those misinformed articles.

      3. 15.2.3
        Bbq

        Jo
        And how did you get all of this from the comments here? Comments which basically amount to – a 39 yo old woman is more likely to find a stable long term relationship with someone her own age or older rather than someone near a decade younger – so if she’s looking to play the law of averages it’s a safer bet to look more often there?

        But from that you read that men are terribly threatened by unmarried women (or at least the undesirable losers are). Your comment is more like an unrelated blog post than a response to anything written here. Talk about seeing what you want to see.

        1. jo

          Bbq, I was responding to Sylvana’s comments. Either you completely missed that, or you are just too eager to attack the woman commenters here, even if the attacks are repeatedly off-base, random, and irrelevant.

          Rusty, though you complained about women whining, yours were the only whines in this subthread. Neither Sylvana nor I (nor Emily) whined about the female condition; we simply said that under certain conditions, we would prefer to be single. We didn’t complain about this. Why would you take that so personally? How does it affect you?

          I concur with Emily: we don’t care about MGTOW, it doesn’t bother us in the slightest if a man isn’t interested in getting involved with women. But it seems to bother you a lot if women say we prefer singledom to getting involved with certain types of men. So much so, that you go ad hominem on us and start threatening with comments about how we wouldn’t be liked by men – completely missing our point: that we have no desire to be liked by men who would make such comments in the first place.

          As for the Asian women comments which you’ve made repeatedly in this blog: there must be over 1 billion Asian women in the world. It’s interesting how you attempt to generalise all of them according to your desires. I’ll just leave it at that.

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          (Slow clap)

        3. Bbq

          Jo

          Sylvanas comments where she implies people are trying to say women should find men 15 to 20 years older desirable? Ok then, you were replying to comments that inferred something no one here was suggesting, then took it a step further by suggesting men were threatened by unmarried women – something which you either read into comments on this thread or else is just an opinion you hold you wanted to state, which is far more random and irrelevant than me pointing out the advice being given here – men the OPs own age or older (need NOT be 20 years) are generally more likely to be a more successful LTR partner to look for than ones near 10 years her junior.

          But you and Sylvania enjoy that little echo you’ve got going.

        4. RustyLH

          Jo,

          You didn’t whine? Your whole 15.2 post is a whine.

          “Some men think they’re wielding a weapon over women’s heads by saying that if we dare to want this / not want that, then *gasp* we’ll end up SINGLE”

          What? Seriously? Saying that if you concentrate on younger men, you are more likely to end up single, is men thinking they are wielding a weapon. WOW, I mean seriously, just wow. No, it’s just a fact based opinion. And I have even stated many times that if you are OK with that, more power to you.

          “As if that were the worst fate that could befall women. It’s just not. I was going to say ‘not anymore,’ but maybe all throughout history, it never WAS a bad fate for women to be single, no matter how much society has tried to convince us otherwise and to limit opportunities for women (including jobs and safety).
          But what’s changed more recently is that, not only can women earn their own keep, which they’ve been able to do for decades, all the shame and stigma of not being married is fading away.”

          And here is another whine. Just another, “Poor women, victims of society,” whines. As I stated before, men experienced the same exact pressures, and then some. Get married, support a wife, have kids, be a pillar of the community. Limiting opportunities? Could men stay home with the kids? Even today, that’s not actually acceptable. Don’t look now but a high profile divorce case, (Cavallari-Cutler) involves the woman leaving because a man was choosing to stay home with his kids. Just as there were “jobs for women,” there were jobs for men. Men were looked down upon, if they took jobs considered to be a woman’s job. Ah but yes, society just oppressed women, right? Yeah, I feel sorry for all those women sent to Vietnam against their will, only to be turned into human hamburger. And how about all those women who died of black lung, if they didn’t get killed by a cave-in first. And how many white feathers were handed to women, by men? You know? Women who handed white feathers to men, in public, to shame him for not being on the front lines, during WWI.

          “Also, we recognize overtly when someone is trying to shame us or threaten us… but the threat is nonexistent, because the people making such threats are not people we would ever want in our lives in the first place.”

          Another whine. A threat? Stating an obvious fact is a threat? Once again, even when I say that a woman is likely to end up alone, if she will only date younger guys, or concentrates on them, I have also often stated my understanding that this is perfectly acceptable to some women, and simply say that we have to accept responsibility for our choices. I stated this about men who go after women that are too young, and end up alone. I specifically stated that he has nobody to blame but himself, if he ends up alone, and is not happy about that.

          “Why do happy unmarried women seem to be such a threat to some men? And why do they think that they’re insulting us by saying that they wouldn’t want to marry someone like us or that we’re behaving unattractively? As if we would want to attract men like that.”

          What? This is quite whiny. I’ve never met a man who is threatened by happy single women. If she’s happy, that just makes her more attractive.

          You then seem offended that a man who wouldn’t want you, states so, and say that he is insulting you…but then you do the same. Or…are you just stating what you find unattractive, with no insult intended? Can you tell men that there are things about them that make you not want to have anything to do with them, without it being an insult?

          Now to the next post.

          “Rusty, though you complained about women whining, yours were the only whines in this subthread.”

          Incorrect. I simply see things as they are, and accept them as they are. I’m no longer upset by these things. I just accept that they are what they are. I don’t get emotional about these things. But I do like to debate things.

          “Neither Sylvana nor I (nor Emily) whined about the female condition; we simply said that under certain conditions, we would prefer to be single. We didn’t complain about this. Why would you take that so personally? How does it affect you? ”

          I disagree about the whining. And I do not take any of it personally, nor am I actually affected by it. I’m actually in a good place in life. I’m actually very happy with my life. What you want, or don’t want, or like, or don’t like, does not actually affect me. I simply like to debate, and put in my opinions. I suspect projection here. I am completely not understanding how, or why you would think any of that is true. Can people not express opinions, without being emotionally affected…without taking things personally? I don’t take any of it personally.

          “we don’t care about MGTOW, it doesn’t bother us in the slightest if a man isn’t interested in getting involved with women.”

          Once again, MGTOW does not mean not getting involved with women, though a segment of MGTOW do choose that route.

          “But it seems to bother you a lot if women say we prefer singledom to getting involved with certain types of men.”

          No, it doesn’t bother me at all. Your life, and your choices do not affect me at all. You are the only one affected by your choices. It has not one thing to do with me, and thus, means nothing to me. I really don’t understand where you get these things from.

          “So much so, that you go ad hominem on us and start threatening with comments about how we wouldn’t be liked by men – completely missing our point: that we have no desire to be liked by men who would make such comments in the first place.”

          You need to look up the definition of ad hominem, “a Latin word that means “against the man.” As the name suggests, it is a literary term that involves commenting on or against an opponent, to undermine him instead of his arguments.”

          Not once have I done that. A perfect example of that is this…many times I would hear somebody quote something from a Conservative, such as Rush Limbaugh…like, “I heard Rush say, the other day, that XYZ.

          Instead of addressing the XYZ argument, the person will respond with some insult to dismiss Rush, which is really just a tactic to not have to argue against XYZ, because that is harder than just insulting the person that said it. On YouTube, you can see many times where people get caught in that trap. For instance, somebody went onto a college campus, and attributed statements made by Democrats, as statements made by Trump…and instantly, the students would disagree with the statements. Funny watching their faces when they learn that in fact, it was a Democrat that said it. But no, not one time have I attacked any of you. I have disagreed with your points.

          “As for the Asian women comments which you’ve made repeatedly in this blog: there must be over 1 billion Asian women in the world. It’s interesting how you attempt to generalise all of them according to your desires.”

          Not sure where you get this from. With the life experience I have in Asia, I am more than aware that Asian women are not a monolithic group. Just as I know that Feminists, MGTOW, Black people, White people, etc., are not monolithic.

          Never have I said they are a monolithic. Never have I even said, ALL Asian women. The only thing I have expressed is that men find that Asian women in Asia, treat them differently, in a good way. Saying this does not mean ALL Asian women in Asia.

          Incidentally, the same actually applied to Australian women. The absolute most beautiful woman I ever dated, was a woman in Sydney, who treated me pretty much the same as how I was treated by Asian women in Asia that I dated. I would even go so far as to say that I wish I had been more open to not being an American, because she would have married me if I moved there permanently. Not taking that opportunity is my biggest regrets in life.

        5. Emily, to

          Jo,
          “we don’t care about MGTOW, it doesn’t bother us in the slightest if a man isn’t interested in getting involved with women. But it seems to bother you a lot if women say we prefer singledom to getting involved with certain types of men. So much so, that you go ad hominem on us and start threatening with comments about how we wouldn’t be liked by men – completely missing our point: that we have no desire to be liked by men who would make such comments in the first place.”
          I love you. 🙂 Should we quote Cat Stevens? “If you want to leave, take good care …”
          And I don’t have the patience to read paragraph after paragraph of their answers. Brevity, people! 🙂

        6. jo

          Emily – aw, love you too! 🙂 Ooh, baby baby it’s a wild world…

          Yes, the very long replies seem to indicate that they care a lot about the topic, no matter how much they may deny it.

        7. Emily, to

          Jo,
          “Ooh, baby baby it’s a wild world…”
          If you want to leave, take good care. Hope you meet a lot of mgtow dudes out there. …
          Sorry. Couldn’t help myself.
          “Yes, the very long replies seem to indicate that they care a lot about the topic, no matter how much they may deny it”
          EXACTLY.

        8. RustyLH

          LOL

          The long reply is due to quoting your responses.

          Also, never actually said that I don’t care at all. Just not super emotional about it as was implied. I love to debate things. Debate requires exploring ideas. Short bumper sticker replies aren’t always adequate.

          But, your surrender is accepted. We need emojis here, so proper celebrations can take place. hehe

        9. Bbq

          Jo

          My reply wasn’t long, it pointed out that you had ignored the actual content of what was written to have a back and forth agreement without another poster who also ignored the content of what was written, all so you could both feel good by stating unrelated things and agreeing with them to each other. Something your still doing and perhaps view as some kind of win or getting under people’s skin. It doesn’t. I honestly think you have nothing worthwhile to say now. Nothing other than making unrelated rants about men or stating truly bizarre theories about alpha chimps and weasels and such lol.

          Perhaps you truly believe what your saying, perhaps you rationalize that you believe that you really don’t want the men that don’t want you (likely because of your stubborn clinging to your weird points of view). Either way, I srsly doubt your getting these men that you say you want with your attitude. I really doubt it.

          But you and Sylvania carry on.

  16. 16
    sylvana

    Buck25

    “Shhhh! You can’t say that, bbq, you’ll annoy all the “progressives” here.”

    You just proved Noquay’s point. It’s not about bashing rural folk. It’s about this derogative, childish, and – I hate to say it – primitive attitude and mindset of so many rural folk. Honestly, I’m surprised you didn’t throw in a snowflake and a whaaaa while you were at it. Annoy the progressives? What person over the age of 18 makes statements like that? That sounds like a child or a teenager, at best, talking.

    Personally, I consider anything over three traffic lights a big city. You couldn’t pay me enough to live in suburbia, let alone so much as a mid-size city. I love the country, love country folk. But there is no denying that the mindset generally runs toward extremely conservative, highly religious, and very closed-minded. It is a simpler, more primitive lifestyle, that’s why I like it so much. Lots of wonderful people who will still help their neighbors, look out for each other, and will give you the shirt of their backs. Something you don’t often find in cities.

    On the other hand, there is no denying that they’re not exactly open to joining the 21st century when it comes to certain things. And that their view of the world tends to be very narrow. It’s not necessarily a bad thing, it simply a lifestyle and old-fashioned mindset that’s not compatible to most educated women, in particular. I’ve been part of the good-ole-boy club basically my entire adult life. Love the guys to pieces. Would I ever marry into that? Good grief, no. And not even just because of the men, but even more so, the women.

    There’s also no denying that the lifestyle is not all that appealing to younger or more educated people. This is clearly proven by the fact that younger and more educated people tend to move away from those areas. Not necessarily because anyone pushes them to do so, but because they want different options and choices. A lot of them have experienced life outside of that “bubble”, and have a hard time fitting back into it later.

    Noquay wasn’t insulting rural folks or calling them worthless. Noquay was simply pointing out that people who make statements like “careful, you might annoy the progressives” are probably not the best for a progressive, independent, or liberal to date.

    1. 16.1
      Bbq

      Sylvana

      And yet you spend this whole comment calling rural people primitive and backward – except those that deign to live among them like yourself who can observe them through an intellectual lense. But they shouldn’t be insulted by your attitude? Lol, do you have any idea how pompous your comment reads? And the fact Noquay agreed with a similar one you made above may possibly give some a clue about her similar mindset as well.

      And I don’t think anyone was calling rural anything under three traffic lights – rural can be quite big, or small but not isolated. Basically places that out of nec is its will always exist.

      1. 16.1.1
        Cathalei

        Not everything that expresses incompatibility in some areas is intended to be an insult, Noquay expressed that it was about the attitudes and not so much about intelligence. Whether one might agree or disagree, sylvana also pointed out it has positive and negative sides. Talking about “you might annoy the progressives”, however one might define it; would not be the best fit for someone who fits into this definition. It is not that hard to grasp.

    2. 16.2
      Buck25

      Sylvana,

      First of all, it all comes down to priorities. Obviously, as you and Noquay pointed out, obviously anyone has more dating options in more densely populated areas (holds true for men as well, BTW). The older you are, the less likely you are to find dates/relationships in rural/small town America. Obviously, a liberal/progressive highly educated woman would be more likely to find dates/relationships in the cities or the suburbs, since that’s where such people (both genders) tend to congregate. You want to fish for trout, you won’t have much luck in a swamp lake, just like you won’t catch many bass in a trout stream.

      You, Noquay and I have chosen rural/small town life, because we prefer the living conditions there. There’s a lot to be said for it, but dating and relationship opportunities aren’t one of them. As for me, I grew up on a farm; feeding the chickens, slopping the hogs, gathering eggs, picking vegetables, milking the cow and shoveling out the barn. Tractors were scarce back then, so we had an old mule; I learned to hitch up the mule and plow up the vegetable gardens by the time I was 10. Everything slowly changed around me, of course; the old farmstead is now a shopping mall, the two-lane blacktop is a four-lane main main thoroughfare. I went off to college, then to the army; fought in Vietnam and was lucky enough to come home to what was by then the suburbs. I worked, made a living, eventually took over a faltering enterprise that I had a vision for and succeeded beyond my wildest dreams. I’ve been outside your “bubble” for most of my adult life. I’ve been in academia (went to grad school, thought I might want to become a college professor). I’ve been around all sorts of people, including academics, doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc. I can pretty much adapt to any group of people; I’ve gone from the country to the country club, literally. I’ve had my fill of the intellectual and economic snobbery that too often goes with that part of society, seen enough pompous stuffed shirts full of enough hot air to inflate a fleet of hot air balloons, and heard enough B.S to fertilize several thousand acres, at least. I finally had all of that I could stand, so when I was able to semi-retire, and leave that world behind, I went back to my roots!

      I had no trouble whatever re-adjusting to rural life, walking the same land my sixth-great grandfather farmed before the Revolution, and I’m not leaving til they bury me in this red clay ground. It’s quiet out here at night; other than the crickets, the katydids, the tree frogs, the barred owls hooting from the hollow, and once in a while, the whistle of a far-off train, there’s no noise. The deer walk down the road unmolested, and sometimes the foxes stop by and pay a visit. The bald eagles are back; it’s good to see them soaring overhead in that big open sky, where I can actually see the stars on a clear night. Out here, no one needs to lock their doors; the only crime since I’ve been here, is when a neighbor down the road caught a peeping tom a couple years back.

      Folks out here are friendly just like they always have been; and if their values are out-of -step with the current mainstream, at least they still have some. I don’t share their religion (I lost mine in Vietnam), but no one seems to mind all that much. Yes, I’m more educated, but I don’t think that makes me better than they are, so I don’t think it’s up to me to tell them how to think, or how to vote, or how to feel about those who do. They have no obligation to change to suit someone else’s needs (mine, yours or anyone else’s) but when some “progressive” folks (like Mr. Kernion, who I quoted above) who think they know it all, disparage them and call them names (like “smelly Walmart people”, or “stupid, ignorant, backward hicks”, for instance), I don’t see how you can expect them to have a very positive attitude towards the political ideology that spawned the comments, (and they don’t, believe me!).

      1. 16.2.1
        RustyLH

        Buck25. If this site had a like button, I would create thousands of email accounts, and visit all the libraries I can find, to give this post the proper amount of likes it deserves!

  17. 17
    Yet Another Guy

    Like RustyLH, I too spent time on active duty in the United States Navy, albeit only 5 years. I was lucky in that the ship to which I was first assigned forward deployed to a small island in the Maddalena archipelago five months after I arrived (the Maddalena archipelago is a chain of small Italian islands that are located between northern Sardegna and Corsica). After seventeen months in the Maddalena archipelago, I was transferred to the National Security Agency (NSA) as a member of the Naval Security Group (NSG) where I completed my active obligation. The NSG was a part of the Navy that most civilians and even most sailors knew nothing about, but if anyone has ever heard of the USS Pueblo or USS Liberty incidents, they were NSG/NSA intelligence collection platforms (the Navy classified them as “research ships”). That being said, a Navy town is a lower-SMV woman’s dream come true. The ratio of men to women is so high that most men cannot afford to be selective. A 5 or 6 in a Navy town is like a 9 or 10 in more SMV-competitive locations. Even women who are less than a 5 stand a very good change of finding a decent man. That is just the way it is in Navy towns. I wanted no part of that situation, so I abstained from dating for the five months that I was in a Navy town.

    With that being said, my paternal bisnonni (great-grandparents) emigrated from a rural town south of Roma and my bisnonna (great-grandmother) lived to be over 100 years of age; therefore, she was in my life until my later twenties. That combined with the fact that while the Maddalena archipelago was flooded with tourists on holiday from Milano and Roma during the summer, it was only native inhabitants and guys from my ship and their families during the winter. Unlike the tourists from the mainland, most natives only spoke Italian; therefore, learning enough of the language to get around when there were no bilingual Italians was a must. Additionally, unlike the women from the mainland, dating a native woman meant having a chaperone. I do not know how much of the old culture survives, but I am absolutely certain that where the Stefania lives is more conservative than the larger Italian cities and that people pair-bond at a younger age; therefore, I feel for her. However, I do agree with the guys that she should not waste time with younger men and focus on men closer to her own age if she moves to a larger city, that is, if she wants to find something long-term. I am talking about old guys. I am talking about age-appropriate guys, which at age 40 are becoming much more scarce. Anyone who believes that the pressure to get married in the United States is bad, should spend time in Italy outside of the tourist traps. Family is the most important thing in the average Italian’s life. How one speaks to one’s elders is completely different from how one speaks to one’s peers.

  18. 18
    Henry

    Family is the most important thing in the average Italian’s life and people in Italy pair-up early in life?

    Most men younger than 35 still live with their parents, and most guys who are living alone can’t really offer what women are looking for, despite being middle-aged and having a much better life than their own grandfathers did at their age.

    ”Two in three Italians under 35 still live with their parents, and the phenomenon is especially high among young men. Contributor Megan Birot meets one of Italy’s “mummy’s boys” and finds out why he’s not staying at home out of choice.”

    ”For the 44-year-old, marking another trip around the sun is no joyous occasion, rather a reminder that in the middle of his life, he still lives with his mother.”

    ”He is what Italians call a mammone, which translates to “mummy’s boy”. The term describes adult Italians who still live with their parents and they’re far from uncommon. In fact, 66 percent of Italians under 35 – two in three – were yet to leave the parental nest in 2016, according to EU statistics office Eurostat. Figures also reveal the trend has increased in the last decade. In 2008, 61 percent of adults under 35 still lived at home.”

    ”Yet figures show that even having a job doesn’t guarantee that young Italians will fly the nest. While 41 percent of 18 to 34-year-olds living at home are students, just under 25 percent are in full-time employment”

    Why would a young woman waste her youth and natural beauty on a broke guy that can’t even afford a broken-down car let alone a house?

    There are countless numbers of young men in Italy who don’t have much to offer other than a full head of hair and a six-pack, so why would an attractive, worldly, 40 year old woman have any trouble getting a man younger than her? She can even get a man 20 years younger than her.

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