I’m a Democrat Who Doesn’t Want to Date a Republican

It’s an election year. In NH it’s started in earnest but it’s coming to the rest of the country. You say that men don’t have to have the exact same interests and values as I do, but to me politics and religion matter. It sounds from your posts they should not matter that much. But to me they inform how you relate to the world and your most important values. While I agree it doesn’t matter as much with friends I have a harder time respecting people who believe in a party that is currently racist, homophobic, and anti-women. And I have a hard time believing in a church that has yet to stop condemning my son because he was born gay. If I don’t respect my partner then how can a relationship flourish?

I volunteer for the Democratic party and my oldest son is gay. How could I possibly date a Republican when our most important values clash? I can’t overlook that in this political climate given the opposition’s current rhetoric. These are not mild differences. Wouldn’t we end up just fighting? I don’t expect their families to believe as I do, but they can’t support Donald Trump or Ted Cruz. And how would they feel when I canvas on Saturdays or host the Clinton campaign holiday party at my house?

Also when you have a gay son and someone continues to go to the Catholic Church or is an evangelical Christian whose faith equates homosexuality with pedophilia, isn’t that a deal breaker? I was raised as a Roman Catholic but I won’t set foot in a Roman Catholic Church until they stop that nonsense. Pope Francis is trying but it’s like he’s Obama with a Republican congress. And 3 presidential contenders stood on a stage with an evangelical minister who advocates rounding up all the gays and killing them.

I don’t think I’m being harsh. I understand it’s not easy to give up, but my sons went to see Spotlight and stayed up all night discussing it. And they are my life. A man who thinks sexuality is a choice or that he would feel uncomfortable around my son is not for me and I don’t see a way around this. My female friends who continue to attend churches who don’t hold the same values, they do baffle me. It’s like staying in a bad relationship where you are verbally and emotionally abused isn’t it?

I’m not talking tennis vs. golf or action movies vs. indie flicks, but these are huge. And it’s going to get worse this year. So please discuss.

Thank you!
Kathleen

I may be a liberal, but I’m moderate in temperament. Which is to say that I’m big on listening and trying to understand someone else’s point of view. I’m not dogmatic; I try to let data and science inform my opinions. My metrics are about “effective and ineffective,” not “right and wrong.” And I feel very strongly – as do most liberals – that the world is grey and not black and white. Anyone who approaches a situation without nuance clearly hasn’t given it much thought.

So here’s your nuance, Kathleen:

Not all Republicans are the same.

I know that’s shocking, but it’s true. Is Trump a rich bully with a fourth grade vocabulary and no experience in Washington, spouting borderline fascist tirades at anyone who crosses him without any tangible plans on how he will make Iran, China, Mexico, Russia and ISIS heel, apart from talking tough? Of course.

Anyone who approaches a situation without nuance clearly hasn’t given it much thought.

Is Ted Cruz the caricature of a compassionless conservative, a mean-spirited divisive man who has alienated everyone on both the right and the left in his rise to prominence, a truly scary, retrograde human being who wants the United States to be a Christian theocracy? Hell, yeah.

And most of my Republican friends are scared shitless of them.

They are bright, socially liberal, moderate-tempered people who vote Republican because they offer lower taxes, believe in smaller government, and blindly support Israel. These are good people who are highly educated, happily married “job creators” here in the suburbs of Los Angeles, and while they’re uncomfortable with the official party platform, they vote with their wallets. Ask them about Obamacare and they’ll have very valid critiques, since they employ 50-100 people each. I can understand and respect their stances, and I hope you can, too.

So when you write, “I don’t think I’m being harsh,” that would appear to be your blind spot. You don’t consider the idea that politics (like sexuality) isn’t just binary, but a broad spectrum.

Republican moderates may not make much noise during the primary season, but they exist and are worth getting to know, dating and even marrying.

My wife grew up in a right-wing Catholic military family with an overtly racist and sexist patriarch. But my wife is moderate to apolitical. She voted for Perot back in ’92. She believes in the same exact values that you and I espouse. She thinks her family is on the wrong side of history when it comes to gay rights. But mostly she tolerates me for being an opinionated liberal. Hell, she came to a Bill Maher taping with me last year; whether or not she shares all of my beliefs is essentially meaningless. She doesn’t feel that strongly about her positions and doesn’t like to argue, and that allows us to work. A more political partner wouldn’t be a good fit for me – which is exactly what you’re saying.

Listen, Kathleen, you can restrict yourself to Democrats and still have half the population available to you. But I’m telling you that the other half of the population is not monolithic.

Republican moderates may not make much noise during the primary season, but they exist and are worth getting to know, dating and even marrying. Believe me; I should know.

P.S. If any Republicans take it personally that some Democrats have second thoughts about dating you, please check out this study, which points out that, in fact, Republicans are even more judgmental of Democrats.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Morris

    Good advice. I hope the OP realizes Blacks/Hispanics are religious at a higher rate than the general public. Majority voted AGAINST gay marriage in California of all places. And overwhelmingly vote Democratic.

     

     

    Restricting yourself to a Democrat isn’t going to necessary solve all your potential problems. Maybe you should talk to potential partners about the issues that you care about before turing them down?

  2. 2
    Callie

    I agree. It’s about values not a label. That’s the most important thing. There are absolutely moderate conservatives that truly believe in small government (which includes staying out of people’s bedrooms and allowing women to choose what’s right for their bodies).

    That being said this is an interesting year. Because there is a very real possibility that someone truly heinous could get the nomination for the Republican Party and I do think someone who would blindly vote for such a person because “I like lower taxes” would not, personally, be someone who shares my values. Voting for someone you don’t like at all, who espouses things you can’t stand, who could deprive a lot of people of their rights just because you want to save some money? That’s not a value I respect nor want in a partner. And I think it’s okay. I think it means that yes, I am making my dating pool smaller but I’m okay with that. I’d rather it be harder to date than date someone who doesn’t share that value (fortunately I have a partner who shares my values extremely closely, so hey, it can be done! 🙂 ).

    I think it just is a matter of what you are looking for. And whether it being a harder slog to find someone is worth it. For me it was. For others maybe not. I think weighing the pros and cons as Evan lined out in his response is the best idea.

    But yes, I’ve met very reasonable and humane right wing people. I have a friend who campaigned for Kerry, who is very left and very active and she dated a lovely right wing guy. They aren’t together anymore (for reasons other than politics), and I do wonder what it would be like in this current polarized climate. But still. Not everyone’s the same. Getting to know the person, rather than the label, is the most important thing.

  3. 3
    Mike

    I’m with Evan on this one. When I was online I got a flirt from a woman who identified as conservative.  As I have a gay daughter I’m in the same boat as the OP.  The rest of her profile seemed interesting, so I sent her a note in response and indicated that she seemed interesting, but if she had issues with dating a man with a gay daughter I understood.  Things worked out, and we’re married now.

     

    1. 3.1
      Carly

      That’s awesome that it worked out for you.  I agree, you should definitely keep an open mind but sometimes you just can’t make it work.  I am in a relationship now with someone who hates liberals and his family does too.  My family is very liberal and I keep an open mind and let him complain and curse out whomever..but God forbid if I stick up for liberals or what I believe.  He doesn’t like to listen to me or even dismisses it.  I don’t think this will work long term because of this.  I could very well accept different beliefs but if he doesn’t respect my opinions and beliefs, ultimately it can’t work.  I’m learning this now..It’s taking a while but I’m learning about myself more and more in this relationship..

      1. 3.1.1
        Tracy Trace

        He sounds like bad news, Carly. Listen to your gut.

         

      2. 3.1.2
        Adrian

        Carly,

        Have you told your boyfriend that his behavior (pointing to specific things he has done, not generalizations), has caused you to desire to end the relationship?

         

        I only ask because, there are many issues that I myself am passionate about, but not to the point of losing a great partner over.

         

        If either of you are under 25… maybe even 32, I would say forget the last sentence.

         

        Most people in those age groups (especially those under 30) think they can easily find someone of great quality again; so they have no doubts about dumping a great partner over something so trivial as whether or not Trumps hair is real.

         

        We don’t realize what is and what is not important in a great relationship until we mature enough to stop focusing on quantity and start focusing on quality.

         

        We also don’t realize how great of a partner we let get away over trifles, until we are no longer blind enough NOT to see our own innumerable flaws.

         

        The day I realized that I was not as great of a catch as I thought I was, was the day, I truly became worthy to call myself someone’s boyfriend.

        1. Carly

          Hi Adrian,

          Thanks for the comment.  I agree that this should probably be discussed.  I do have a problem with communication in our relationship though.  :/  I don’t like to point fingers, I know my problem is not speaking up out of fear.  He doesn’t like to discuss the relationship at all so it’s really very difficult to say anything I am feeling without being shut down.  Just to clarify too..I am 35 and he is 38.  We are both divorced.  I know my last husband was not into communicating and it was obviously a problem too. I’m glad to hear you realize your mistakes. I was hoping my current BF learned from his failed relationships but he doesn’t seem to be. :/

        2. Adrian

          Carly,

          If your boyfriend is almost 40 years old and he doesn’t know how to communicate, then I would advise you to move on.

           

          Carly, I am curious…

          If I were your friend and it was me telling you that someone I was dating made me feel afraid to speak my opinions, was selfish, wanting to be allowed to vent their opinions but didn’t allow me the same, and even worse… this person didn’t even want to talk about our relationship

           

          I am sure you would tell me to dump her FAST!!!

           

          So why are you still with this guy? If it is because you believe that you can not find better, then he is NOT the problem, YOU are.

           

          Trust me, I hate being alone, but content while alone is better than unhappy as a couple.

           

          Lastly, I noticed something about myself yesterday while talking to friends about movies. I am the type of person who will watch an entire 2 or 3 hour movie and even though it is an average or bad movie, one simple 5 minute scene will make me rate the entire movie as GOOD!

           

          One scene should not alone make a movie good, it should be a good movie because the majority of the scenes were good.

           

          We all do this of course, if a waiter is rude to us we assume that he or she is a bad person, but we never consider that they may be really nice people who are just having a bad day… Or when a person is friendly to us, we think they are kind people, we never assume that they could be a mean person who just happened to be in a rare good mood when we “briefly” met them.

           

          I fear that I may one day do this with a bad relationship. One of two good qualities of a bad girlfriend may cause me to hold on to someone that I should have long ago dumped.

           

          Many of us invest too deeply into “potential” and not enough into the actual actions of the person we are dating.

           

          Carly, are you doing the same thing with this guy as I do with bad movies? Are the things you are telling us only a small portion of the bad things he does or are they the majority?

    2. 3.2
      Luis M.

      I’m sure there were “moderate” Nazis too.  Guilt by association.  Your daughter should come first, not your dates.

  4. 4
    GoWithTheFlow

    Kathleen,

    Here’s my situation:  Most of my (older Catholic) relatives became republicans when Reagan happened upon the scene–the so-called Reagan democrats–and their kids and grandkids have followed suit.  Up until 10 months ago, I lived in a blood red state and most of my friends and co-workers were/are some shade of republican.  I am more liberal with a libertarian bent.  If I decided that I could only hang out with people who shared the exact same views as me, I would be having a party of one.

    Evan is correct when he says there are shades of Republican.  About 70% of my republican friends do believe in abortion rights and gay rights.  Like Evan said, a lot of their reasons for voting republican have to do with lower taxes and frustrations with regulations that directly affect jobs.  They simply put a higher value on those issues than they do on voting for a candidate with the agreeable stance on social issues.  Many simply don’t agree with me that abortion rights are threatened, and they feel that gay rights are becoming a reality anyway, despite conservative opposition.  So they vote what they feel is most “urgent” for them.

    There are also varying shades of democrats.  I agree with republicans that there are way too many regulations in some areas.  Rules and check lists don’t always fix things. I am in the medical field and Medicare now mandates that operating room nurses check boxes off on a form that confirm things like, “The patient did not fall.”  Because if the patient fell, the government doesn’t trust us to record it.  Pretty soon, the nurses will be so busy doing paperwork, they won’t be able to care for their patients!

    The thing is, my politically red friends and I have many areas where we agree on things.  Even in areas where we don’t agree, I can appreciate it when they have put  thought into their positions and I realize that they are often an outgrowth of very real experiences they have had.

    As far as the Catholic church goes.  Walking away with your money is the ultimate way of showing your displeasure.  Some won’t because they feel if they don’t stay to affect change from the inside, church dogma will never be challenged.  One friend (who has a much loved gay brother) found out that if she wrote “building fund” on her contribution check, the money would go into an account that is specifically for the purposes of building a new church for the congregation.  She feels that at least that way she is supporting the parish while the money she gives isn’t going to fund the church hierarchy.  And she doesn’t feel like she is in an abusive relationship, she truly feels better for her faith.  Her congregation is headed by a social justice priest and the parish has a very active anti-poverty action presence in the community, and my friend is very passionate about their mission.

    Look for common ground.  If you approach someone seething with contempt and anger, they will never listen to your reasons for living and voting like you do, and you will never be able to share your views and your reasons for them.  You will not be heard, and therefore there is no chance you will help to change someone’s mind.

  5. 5
    Jasmina

    My comment will be a little different. I was born into a family that lives and breathes

    politics 24/7 to a point I was disgusted when I was barely 5 years old and became the

    rebel or the open minded black sheep. I hate and don’t waste my time whatsoever with

    religion and politics. I bilieve in God, but everything else is a powerful manipulation to

    control and spilt people. For a couple, single or married to get along core values matter,making each other respected and happy, honest and kind communication. Anything that does not

    contribute to people’s growth and happiness is a waste of time.

    open and honest communication and

     

     

  6. 6
    lnefriedrich

    I have been in several relationships where my boyfriend was in a different political party than me. In my Democrat days, I dated Republicans, as they are plentiful supply in Raleigh, NC! I went to an agricultural school and found those farmer boys attractive … And most of them were NOT Democrats! Needless to say, political parties were not high on my checklist at 22.

    Years later, I am a Republican and my current boyfriend is a Democrat and yes, there are times when we argue (just this past week we were having a discussion about socialism while he was driving and he was so passionate about his point he missed our exit and we ended up almost one town over!), but for the most part, it does not cause us any problems in our relationship. Politically, we are both are socially liberal and fiscally conservative, but I chose one party and he chose the other. We are also in our early 30s so we were raised in a more liberal and tolerant social climate, whereas I can see her point, as older people in general may be less apt to change their views and adopt a completely different mindset than what they had.

    As for Kathleen, her concerns were a bit hard to unpack in her letter. She did not want an oppressive Republican nor did she want a Catholic because they may condemn her son and because they saw a movie it struck fear in her heart that some Republican and / or Catholic would oppress them??? She also don’t want to have to explain herself when she is canvassing for the Clintons, who have their own special set of issues, but I won’t argue them here because I’m sure I’m in the minority. I know plenty of liberal Catholics and Christians (especially among black people) who don’t believe in gay marriage and I know socially liberal Republicans for which it’s not a problem not concern, so I’m not sure what’s the answer she’s looking for. It seems like is applying her general prejudices onto people that’s being perpetuated by fear and rejection. She needs to take it on a date-by-date basis!! If I would have limited myself to just Republicans when I was on match, I would have missed out on the best thing that’s ever happened to me. As a matter of fact, he was intrigued because my headline was “Black, Southern conservative yogi living in the Pacific Northwest!” It generated a lot of interest from Democrats and Republicans alike, but unfortunately it didn’t get long-term exposure. I met the love of my life the second day I was on match and my witty, well-written, EMK-inspired profile was taken down within a week. 😉

    Good luck to her and hopefully she’ll keep her heart open because when it’s closed, she could be missing the very blessing she’s looking for.

     

     

    1. 6.1
      Not Jerry

      Politically, we are both are socially liberal and fiscally conservative, but I chose one party and he chose the other.

      I am a very conservative libertarian Republican, meaning I don’t care what you do socially as long as it doesn’t bother me. But I am fiscally conservative.
      I think you might be like me. I have plenty of Democrat friends, and I have certainly dated a few. It’s no problem.

      Scratch that last reply, I hit reply early. Oops. If you can delete that. Thanks.

  7. 7
    Kitty

    OP, I’ve met women just like you so I have no doubt your email is genuine. Otherwise I’d think you’d written a perfect satire of a condescending self-righteous feminist who thinks she is enlightened and compassionate but is in fact closed-minded, judgmental and demeaning toward anyone who disagrees with her.  Especially other women.

    But don’t take my word for it.  Social scientist Jonathan Haidt (a centrist secular Jew) discovered that conservatives understand liberals a lot better than liberals understand conservatives.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20170717154536/http://www.chronicle.com/article/Jonathan-Haidt-Decodes-the/130453

    1. 7.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Kitty, that’s a bit unfair on a few levels. First of all, being intolerant of intolerance isn’t a bad thing. If, in fact, there are people who are judgmental of her gay sons, are you saying that somehow, she is wrong for being intolerant of that? I think it’s perfectly within her rights to choose an enlightened partner. One is not entitled to be “open-minded” just in order to date a bigot. Her error was in assuming that ALL Republicans are this intolerant, not in assuming that Republicans, in general, are more likely to be intolerant.

      Next, you sort of misappropriate Haidt’s material for these purposes. First of all, the gist of the Chronicle article is to focus exclusively on ways that Haidt offered liberal critiques. It said nothing of his conservative critiques. So both the article cherry picked what they wanted from The Righteous Mind and you did, as well, by using that article as justification for your opinion. As the book points out, people feel things in their gut and then find the rationalizations to justify their feelings. Ask people if they want to be denied health care based on preexisting conditions, they’ll say no. Ask people if they think that more people should be on the insurance rolls to bend the cost curve downward, so that “free riders” can’t get health care, they’ll say yes. Ask people if they like the byzantine insurance code or would they rather pay doctors directly, they’ll say they prefer to pay directly without a mediating third party. Ask people if they like Obamacare, they’ll say no (even though they agree with the basic tenets of the ACA). Why? Because of a gut feeling about Obama that they can’t put into words, which usually translates into a whole bunch of false statements (Muslim, socialist, ideologue, pacifist, etc). That is the Righteous Mind at work. Haidt, to his credit, points out the similarly liberal biases, such as the one exhibited by the OP.

      My point: just because conservatives understand liberals better (per that one link) doesn’t grant them superiority. I would guess that Muslims in America understand Christians a LOT better than Christians understand Muslims, because they live in a predominantly Christian country. I would think the onus would be on you to try to understand the minority experience instead of calling out self-righteous liberals like me for pointing out the biggest failure of the modern GOP is its failure to act like Jesus. “There but for the grace of God, go I.” If you truly want to understand liberals/minorities/feminists, try to yourself in their shoes and consider the validity of their grievances, instead of issuing ad hominem attacks like the one you posted above.

      You can’t claim to be open-minded and compassionate and then insult a woman who is concerned about dating a man who would belittle her sons or her political leanings.

      1. 7.1.1
        Kitty

        Evan,
                 You’ve responded to my comment as though I wrote a manifesto defending multiple aspects of contemporary American conservatism when in fact I wrote a very specific reply to OP’s email.  But since you put so many words into my mouth I’ll elaborate:

        1.       “calling out self-righteous liberals like me”  Where in my comment did I mention your name?  It was specifically addressed to the OP and her particular set of misperceptions and hypocrisies.  It has nothing to do with you.
        2.       there are people who are judgmental of her gay sons, are you saying that somehow, she is wrong for being intolerant of that?  Where in my comment did I say she should date or befriend people who are intolerant or hateful towards gays?
        3.       “Ask people if they want to be denied health care based on preexisting conditions, they’ll say no. Ask people if they think that more people should be on the insurance rolls to bend the cost curve downward, so that ‘free riders’ can’t get health care, they’ll say yes.”  “Because of a gut feeling about Obama that they can’t put into words, which usually translates into a whole bunch of false statements (Muslim, socialist, ideologue, pacifist, etc).”  When did I say anything about Obama and health care?  As far as I’m concerned these finer points aren’t relevant to OP’s question which was more about her gay son and Christianity.
        4.       OP wrote: “My female friends who continue to attend churches who don’t hold the same values, they do baffle me. It’s like staying in a bad relationship where you are verbally and emotionally abused isn’t it?  That is the most judgmental and intolerant statement I’ve read on your site in a long time.  And she’s not talking about strangers she’s talking about her own friends!  I assume you don’t believe that but I’m surprised that you didn’t refute that absurd statement.  I posted the link about liberals having a poor understanding of conservatives in response to that extremely closed-minded remark.  This woman is self-involved to the point of narcissism.
        5.       My point: just because conservatives understand liberals better (per that one link) doesn’t grant them superiority.”  Where did I say that conservatives are ‘granted superiority”
        6.       “I would guess that Muslims in America understand Christians a LOT better than Christians understand Muslims, because they live in a predominantly Christian country.”  Probably so, but here in my comment did I even mention Muslims?  But since you brought up Muslims, and the point of OP’s email was religious intolerance of gays, I’ll go into a bit more detail.  OP seethes with rage over homophobic Christians for not advocating homosexuality.  Meanwhile Sunni Arab Muslims in Syria are throwing gay men off buildings yet OP can’t even be bothered to bring it up.  Has she never read the news?  Or are the only gay men that matter white Americans like her son?  Yes the official doctrine of almost all Christian denominations is that homosexuality is sinful.  However gay men in France increasingly support the Catholic-dominated Front National to get protection from hate crimes that are disproportionately committed by youths of North African and Muslim heritage.
        http://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/01/how-marine-le-pen-is-winning-frances-gay-vote/
        I am intolerant of anyone who violently attacks others regardless of religion.  And I have noticed that, while not all Muslims are violent, that  Muslims on average commit more violent crimes against gays than Christians.  OP apparently has not which suggest to me that she doesn’t follow current events or that she is more emotionally invested in her grudge against Christians than analyzing homophobic violence.
        7.       “If you truly want to understand liberals/minorities/feminists, try to yourself in their shoes and consider the validity of their grievances” How did you determine, from one short comment and link, that I haven’t done that?  It sounds like you are making closed-minded judgments.

        8.       “You can’t claim to be open-minded and compassionate and then insult a woman who is concerned about dating a man who would belittle her sons or her political leanings.”  Where did I say in my comment that she should date a homophobic or politically intolerant man?  In fact I didn’t even mention dating.  I said she was particularly intolerant of other women who disagree with her.  In my view a person who says that church going Catholic and Protestant women are like brainwashed battered women is deserves to be called out for her closed minded ignorance.  If you consider that insulting we’ll simply have to agree to disagree.

        1. Caroline

          @Kitty-while I always try to respect others opinions-you’ve stepped over the line in making assumptions and generalizations. The OP was talking about her own concerns-so yes they were specific. Btw-you even seemed to assumed she was white? Hmm-I didn’t read that. She could be any nationality. Really, you gone extreme. The OP personally threw me under the bus in her generalizations but I’m sure not going to make assumptions about her. She had a bona fide concern and was asking for Evan’s help (who btw makes no bones about his leanings). Give her a little credit for at least making a step in the journey.

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          Thanks for replying, Kitty. Your post does more to make my case than I could have myself.

        3. Elizabeth

          Evan,

          For someone who preaches tolerance, you are the most intolerant dating coach out there. For example, even though I disagree with the OP’s political beliefs (yes, Caroline, if someone’s raised Roman Catholic and lives in New Hampshire chances are they’re probably white), I agree that she should stick to her side of the pond and try to not to “change” a  Republican. You say that you’re tolerant?  Where is this tolerance that you speak of?  Was it considered tolerant to insult the GOP front runners?  Or tolerant to show how Non-Republican your “Republican” friends are (RINO = Republican In Name Only) and they’re especially cool because they “blindly support Israel?”  You mean the “tolerant” country that has walls to keep illegal immigrants out?   Hmmmm.   The only tolerant one I’m seeing is your Republican wife who sends her children to a Jewish school to reflect your religion and holds her tongue around you about her political beliefs.  As you said, “a more political partner would not be a good fit.”   So it seems your wife proves kitty’s point more so than any link.

          Just like hate speech will always be free speech, intolerance shall always be tolerated as long as violence and abuse is prohibited.  Who are we to judge what is tolerant and what is not? This is the difference between tyranny and democracy. Everybody has a right to speak their mind, including “intolerant” ideas.  Most modern college kids have thrown out the 60’s free speech mantra in exchange for imposing “hate speech” restrictions.  You can’t pick and choose what free speech you keep and discard.  Evan, you have posted about extreme political correctness overtaking college campi in past articles.  So you seem to understand. And further more,  why do all the “hate speech” advocates who preach and act out violent and hostile methods of disturbances sway left?  I mean that wouldn’t mesh well that leftists are more tolerant, now would it?

          Your camouflaged  “white privilege” dig at Kitty was evidence of more intolerance. I always laugh at this white guilt theory. If there was such a thing as privileges for whites then why oh why would white people “allow” Asians to outperform them both academically and economically?  Funny, the puffed Ho, Salon, and mainstream articles seem to omit Asians when comparing races.  Truth telling is not their strong point.  Since you’re a man of science and reason, I’m sure you can see my frustration.

          Also, the last ethnic group I know of who became a minority in the civilization they built were the Native Americans.  According to the U.S. Census, white people will become a minority in 2045.  The only difference between white people and Native Americans is that white people did this willingly.  But I guess Native Americans dwindling in numbers must be a privilege, since it soon will happen to whites.

          And Kitty, why ever are you posting an analytical chronicles article?  You should be posting a Fox News article and have an avatar of the confederate flag wrapped around a gun.  What a bad example you set for all of us judgemental haters!

        4. Evan Marc Katz

          1. If you prefer other dating coaches, then go to their sites. The fact that you find me intolerant and yet continue to read means that you’re getting something out of this exchange.

          2. You only think I’m the most “intolerant” out there because I write so honestly and prolifically. Show me another coach who doesn’t hide any thoughts or feelings from the public. I’ll wait.

          3. It seems we have a language issue. Being tolerant doesn’t mean that I don’t have opinions. Being tolerant doesn’t also mean that all opinions are created equal. If anything, I pride myself on a strong sense of logic, ethics, and consistency. It drives me crazy when people take different sides of an argument based on politics (see the current Supreme Court standoff). Reasonable people can disagree on solutions to our countries’ problems. But feelings are not the same as facts. And, unfortunately, both Trump and Cruz have a distinct lack of facts on their side – just ideology, fire, and brimstone – blaming others for all the ills in the world. It’s simplistic and insulting. Should I be more “tolerant” of hate speech? Am I intolerant for calling out “hate speech”? Would Jews be intolerant of Nazis by calling attention to how they suddenly seemed to blame them for Germany’s problems? Sorry, that’s not how it works. I tolerate even-tempered debate, based on facts and respect, not on feelings-based attacks. That goes for my blog. That goes for my politics.

          I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about with the white privilege stuff – since I don’t use such language. I simply called attention to Kitty’s dismissive tone of the OP, and dismissed her with my own dismissive tone.

          Moral of the story: I’m intolerant of intolerant people. If I ever sound petulant on here, it’s because someone with strong feelings and no facts came on here to insult me or one of my readers. I will continue to police my blog and run off haters who don’t focus on the merits of the dating question but resort to personal attacks. I get them from men and women, from the left and the right. I don’t need readers like that. My real fans appreciate the level of discourse here and appreciate that this place isn’t filled with attacks.

          Finally, it’s clear your politics don’t mesh with mine, so either leave, or just keep reading free advice despite the fact that you don’t like me.

          But I have no inclination to post further insults to me on my own blog. Have a good night and enjoy the Republican primaries.

        5. Caroline

          @Elizabeth-I missed her point that she was raised catholic – my bad. But you seem to assume she is from NH. She just states that the primary just finished in NH and is coming to the rest of America, I live in the south and my Catholic Church embodies quite a different ethnicities. We have  services in Spanish too. Forgive me for not assuming all catholic parishioners are WHITE.

        6. Elizabeth

          Lemme get this straight, you insult republicans in your advice to the original poster.  I call you out (Kitty only called the OP out for her derogatory comments) and I’m considered the intolerant one and hurler of insults even though you were initially unwelcoming in representing diversity of thought?  Huh?

          I love politically incorrect writing.  I live for it.  But is this not ideological bullying rather than truth-telling discourse as you say? Where’s the discourse if you shut me down? One set of rules for me, another for thee…

          And I do find this tied to love advice.  When you post political stuff, which is more often than not, I question the political logic and equate it to how successful your love advice would be in my life when I disagree so strongly with your politics.  Don’t get me wrong.  You can post whatever and block whomever (me) you want. It’s a free country, still.  But do note that when you post inflammatory speech, be prepared for strong pushback.

        7. Evan Marc Katz

          I didn’t insult all Republicans. I actually defended moderate Republicans and believe they are an important counterbalance to liberal overreach. I insulted Donald Trump and Ted Cruz specifically and I stand by my comments. It is not intolerant to call out hatemongers, not or is it acceptable to give them a free pass because they’re on your team. I’m the first to stand up to ridiculous behavior on the left and find it shameful when extreme partisans lose touch with reality.

        8. Evan Marc Katz

          Short version of this conversation:

          Trump/Cruz/extreme right: “Mexicans are rapists. Women are nothing if they’re not hot. Muslims need to be banned from the country. Blacks need to have their voting rights restricted. Poor people are lazy slackers. Non-Christians are morally questionable. Liberals are stupid.”

          Those people (and their defenders): “Hey, I’m insulted by these broad-based negative accusations. You’re really narrow-minded and bigoted to judge me and people like me.”

          Trump/Cruz/extreme right
          : “You minorities and leftists are so intolerant of different opinions.”

          Right wingers who complain about liberals calling them closeminded after they say closeminded things or try to enact closeminded policies are like the people who cut you off on the highway, get honked at, and then become irate that you had the audacity to honk at them.

        9. Elizabeth

          “Right wingers who complain about liberals calling them closeminded after they say closeminded things or try to enact closeminded policies are like the people who cut you off on the highway, get honked at, and then become irate that you had the audacity to honk at them.”
          Absolutely, I’ll take that and add to it. We cut you off on the hwy because we’re being gunned down by the thought police.  Hence the rise of a rightist Bill Maher, Trump.  He has the guts to say things that everyone else has been too scared to say and why, according to many, is politically bulletproof.

          What you call hate mongering and narrow mindedness, others call inconvienient truths. You and I will continue to go around in circles because we view these things differently and are partisan to our firmly held beliefs.  Maybe this edgy link can do a better job of explaining what I’m trying to say:  http://takimag.com/article/free_speech_or_hate_speech_ill_take_both_thanks_jim_goad#axzz40RNos7Ck

          Thanks for not blocking me, Evan. I appreciate it.

        10. Evan Marc Katz

          You’re right that we’re going around in circles. The difference you and I have is where this hatred begins.

          If I throw a punch at you and you punch back, defending yourself, are we both equally “wrong”? No, we are not.

          You imply that this is an “inconvenient truth” that only Trump is brave enough to say aloud: “Mexicans are rapists. Women are nothing if they’re not hot. Muslims need to be banned from the country. Blacks need to have their voting rights restricted. Poor people are lazy slackers. Non-Christians are morally questionable. Liberals are stupid.”

          I suggest that if you say that, believe that, or refuse to condemn the politician who said it that you are, in fact, throwing the first punch.

          I am not the thought police for fighting back against such narrowminded and offensive generalizations. Some stereotypes have truth; that does not mean that wholesale black and white tarring of everyone who is different than you is a fair or effective communication strategy.

          I am no shrinking violet when it comes to politics, conflict, communication. I will quickly call out extreme examples of political correctness (trans people getting angry at the implication that women have vaginas, Asian people protesting how they cook Kung Pao chicken at a university cafeteria, Yale students calling for the head of an administrator who didn’t want to police Halloween costumes). But that doesn’t mean you get to insult all feminists, Latinos, blacks, Asians, Jews, Muslims, atheists, and liberals – and then, in turn, blame them for being hypersensitive when you insult them.

          Extreme conservatives insult liberals. Liberals complain. Extreme conservatives complain that liberals are complaining about being insulted. It’s not much more complicated than that.

          So yes, I’m ending this thread with what I really believe: you started it. 🙂

        11. Caroline

          Kathleen-I’m wondering if those responses from “Kitty” and “Elizabeth” just make you dig into your stance more?

          Maybe you should consider trying not to use derogatory stereotypes in your comments? Kitty was ABSOLUTELY correct in calling you out about calling your friends battered and brainwashed. Unfortunately, her stereotyping you a white bigoted liberal just washed away her opinion’s validity.

          @Kitty-it really was your delivery not your message. IMHO, you stepped over the line especially calling her out for her “white priviledge” all the while managing to stereotype Muslims? A bit reaching at best.

          @Kathleen-man you really got your panties in a wad. You just helped stereotype the Republican Party furthermore into the ground.

          Btw-it’s “random acts of kindness ” week. I sincerely hope a kind person gives if their self to each one of you. Maybe it will soften your hardened hearts.

      2. 7.1.2
        Persephone

        I love your blog, Evan.  I also feel like I am “home.”  You and I think alike on politics.  Thank you for promoting open-mindedness and tolerance.

    2. 7.2
      Luis M.

      “condescending self-righteous”

       

      The Republican party to a tee.

  8. 8
    Tracy Trace

    I generally don’t enjoy being around anyone overly invested in politics anyway- they are like a ticking time bomb and no fun!  Having that said, I dated  men from both parties, but found myself able to connect with  moderate liberals like myself. I have noticed I’m softer and more vulnerable with them … more in the flow.

    I have male friends that are religious/ moderately conservative and I adore them…but being friends with someone is very different than giving yourself fully to a person romantically and sexually…it takes trust, ease,  and that “we get each other” feeling. .)

     

  9. 9
    Heather K

    I want to say how nice it is that the letter writer is supportive of her son.  For her son to have his family’s support regarding his sexuality is invaluable.  I think that if continuing to support her son is important to her, and ensuring that her son feels welcome and accepted by his family is important to her, then who she dates and chooses as a partner will have a huge impact on her life.  Who she chooses as a partner will greatly impact how accepted her son feels and will greatly impact the letter writer’s relationship with her son.  So I completely understand her concerns.

    But, it’s true that maybe the exact political label doesn’t matter so much.  A lot of people are swingers when it comes to voting, and don’t always vote for one party over another consistently.  It would matter more what a specific individual felt on the specific issues that were important to the letter writer, and not the label.  Although, this is a tough year.  If the nominee on the G.O.P side were someone who wanted to take away rights from or condemn the LGBT population, it might be a serious point of contention in the letter writer’s potential relationship and family if her partner wanted to vote for that candidate.  Context is everything.

  10. 10
    Caroline

    Very interesting subject.  On so many levels I could be offended by the op’s letter! Ha. Raised catholic liberal living in Deep South conservative country (gay cousin too). I think the op sees others a bit like black and white caricatures.  My parents are devout Catholics who used to kid about just canceling each others vote out. As they’ve aged; they’ve both cone more to the center. My conservative dad volunteers for environmental causes and my liberal mom does the books for the church as a volunteer and just until recently volunteered weekly at the catholic hospital for elder patients rights. Sorry-OP grow up. Start looking at the world through a much wider lens. Geez, this liberal catholic in the Deep South would never get a date if I made such generalizations. That’s exactly what’s wrong with the political climate. Everyone is focused in the extremes.

    1. 10.1
      Gabrielle

      Great comment Caroline. Things are not always black and white, there are varying shades of grey.

      I’m a conservative Catholic woman dating a very liberal non-religious man. He happens to be the most wonderful person I’ve ever met and I can’t imagine life without him.

      We do have our debates from time to time, but overall our values are the same and we both have our hearts in the right place.

      It’s a shame that someone might miss out on a truly wonderful person because of their own stereotypes.

       

       

    2. 10.2
      Chance

      I agree, Caroline.  In fact, I would suggest that the OP’s concerns are somewhat misplaced if she is on the fence about dating these people.  If she comes across in real life in the same way that she comes across in her letter, then her biggest problem would be how these people perceive her.

       

      I am, by no means, conservative.  However, to say that you have a harder time respecting people who believe in a party that is currently racist, homophobic, and anti-women is very harsh, judgmental, and myopic.  How many moderates, moderate Republicans, independents, Libertarians, or even moderate Democrats, would she endear herself to by presenting herself in this manner?  She is setting herself up to be attractive to only true believers on the extreme left with the way she is currently presenting herself so her concern appears to be a non-issue at this point.  Not trying to harsh on the OP… she could be a great person, but it doesn’t serve her well to present herself in the dating game the way she has done so in her letter.

       

      Also, a recent poll showed that the majority of Republican voters under the age of 50 do not oppose gay marriage.

      1. 10.2.1
        Caroline

        @Gabrielle-so glad you’ve found a wonderful man. They don’t always come in the package you expect do they?’

        @Chance-thanks for the stats on catholic view (under 50) of gay marriage. I really had a hard time believing I was alone. But I will admit to being a “remiss” catholic at best. But being raised Thst way gave me a good base of values. Even my elderly parents (85 and 89) don’t oppose it.

        I also think the OP is probably a great person; it’s just I’m sure hard to realize the whole world doesn’t operate this way since her child has most likely gone through alot. Being a mom myself, I know of the importance to be your child’s advocate:)

        1. Caroline

          Chance-i misread your statement! So, I checked- roughly 6 in 10 catholics and mainline protestants do not oppose gay marriage.

  11. 11
    Callie

    I wanted to add, if you are online dating, a good way to handle this left vs right thing is to accurately describe your values and beliefs, but still indicate an openness and willingness to date those who lean right. That way if a guy gets in touch (and in a fashion that indicates he’s actually read your profile, not in the obnoxious troll way) you know that he knows your values and still wants to get to know you. So even if he is right wing or more religious, he demonstrates by virtue of getting in touch with you in the first place that he shares your core values and would respect your son.

    Basically instead of limiting people who can contact you to a certain political party or religion/lack thereof, be wide open to them all and let THEM limit themselves by deciding if they want to get in touch with you or not based on the values you have listed.

  12. 12
    Nissa

     
    I think the OP’s important question is: how can a relationship flourish if I don’t respect my partner?
     
    This is what dating is about, getting to know a person, find out what they value and how that is reflected in their daily life, giving them a chance to treat you respectfully. Setting labels aside, you might be well served to focus on the qualities you value most (compassion, unconditional love) and filter by those. Perhaps Evan could provide a practice to filter for that. Or you could use value based questions, like those in 1001 questions to ask before you get engaged by H. Norman Wright.
     
    For example, my sister converted from Christianity to Mormonism. I don’t really understand all the tenets of her faith, but I understand that she gets something from it. For her, it creates unity, a way to make sense of the world, and has specific practices which help take care of the community. When you see the behavior linked to the value upon which it is based, it’s a different experience. When you are looking for things to respect and admire, you tend to find them. But since people don’t see their behaviors as linked to their values, you will have to ask: Why do you do that? What do you get out of doing that? What does it mean to you?
     
     When you say your female friends attend churches that don’t hold the same values, do you mean ‘the churches have different values than my friends do’? It does seem odd that they would attend a church that promotes values different than what they personally value, but I have found that many people are not consistent within themselves. They want to be thin but eat doughnuts. They want to be healthy but not exercise. I’d put this behavior in that category.
     
    Last, you might consider the spectrum of religion. There are Christian churches, such as Unity, or Religious Science, which consider gayness a non-issue.  In those churches you can find a broad spectrum of political, social and sexual leanings within a sphere of acceptance for all.  
     

    1. 12.1
      Caroline

      @Nissa-I appreciated your comment, much validity. But on your hypothesis that some women are inconsistent in their religious beliefs? I think someone else said this, they don’t throw away their religion/church when they believe they can change/help their religion evolve and become more accepting. It’s like trading in your car because the battery has gone dead. Why not change the battery or change the church’s intolerance than run to an entirely  new church/religion ? And if a person indulges in donuts today; it doesn’t mean they can’t get on track tomorrow toward a healthy lifestyle:)

      1. 12.1.1
        Nissa

        It really depends on the situation. One can change churches without changing religions.  If one is having success in helping their church change, evolve and grow – super. It just seems to me that when a person changes, it is unlikely that everyone else will value those changes as positive.  To use your analogy, it’s like trying to show someone that the battery needs to be changed, when that person (church) insists that the existing battery is perfectly good, because it’s still in the car. If there is a difference of thought as to the significant function, that’s difficult to overcome. To make a change starts with a recognition that change is needed…which is subject to personal interpretation. If everyone agrees that how something tastes is the primary function, they are very unlikely to switch away from doughnuts. If you frame the function as being of service to the body as nutrition, there’s room for growth and consistency. If they disagree on the principle…it’s hard to eat broccoli when everyone else is eating doughnuts.

        If some people feel very served by a particular program but differ on abstract theology, I can see that they would be less motivated to make a change. But that theology is typically based on specific, entrenched principles that don’t tend to change much.

        Now, do the people interpreting these static principles change? Sometimes, but external pressures (like disagreeing parishioners) seem much less likely to be successful than internal pressures (personal disagreement). Especially since those in the positions of power got there by spending years of study and practice in the existing theology.

         

        1. Caroline

          Nissa-I think you’re misinterpreting whst I so ineloquently tried to convey. I’m sorry but you seem to imply a certain flippancy toward folks who don’t jump to some new age religion. What I was trying to say was when the base of your religious beliefs are solid; I and Manu ithers personally opt to be a catalyst of change. Just because everyone around you doesn’t bow to your beliefs; doesn’t make your individual/personal spiritual beliefs invalid. Nor does it make the religion doomed to be only folks with out dated beliefs. Not all Catholics should be painted with such a broad brush nor should republicans.

        2. Caroline

          Btw-both the pope and Bishop Dolan are advocating acceptance. Our nation’s laws are merely advocating tolerance.

      2. 12.1.2
        KK

        Caroline said,

        “Btw-both the pope and Bishop Dolan are advocating acceptance. Our nation’s laws are merely advocating tolerance.”

        Please provide a source with direct quotes. I have never read such a thing. Everything I’ve read (by the pope) is to accept the person, not the sin / lifestyle; which goes for all us sinners by the way, and has always been the stance of the church.

         

        1. Caroline

          Yes KK- I should have clarified. I merely meant our government’s law provide a ground that means gays have the same rights as everyone. Very important . The pope is preaching acceptance of all. To include them and bring them into the church and love them. Government can only set the ground for tolerance. Hopefully, just the mere enacting of law and part of society embracing it will set the course for true acceptance. Yes, the church has not accepted the “act”. An important distinction and I can totally see how the OP can’t embrace the religion. The Roman Catholic church was started in 30AD? Gays started organizing about 1969 (Stone wall). Pope Francis was made Pope in 2013. He’s made huge strides in my opinion in 3 years. I don’t think this going to happen overnight just like acceptance of any marginalized minority. While I’m sure it can’t happen quickly enough for this mom; I’m also sure she feels fortunate her son wasn’t living through this in earlier times. A hard pill to swallow at best.

    2. 12.2
      lnefriedrich

      I was under the impression that Mormons are in fact, Christians.

      1. 12.2.1
        Nissa

        yes, you are right! I had to ask, because I never saw her with a Bible or heard her talk about Jesus, but thought they just went by the Book of Mormon. Either way, if it works for her, my opinion about it is irrelevant. It just doesn’t usually come up in our conversations.

      2. 12.2.2
        Joe

        It depends who you ask.

  13. 13
    Jenn

    I’m just wondering, for all the folks here who think the Catholic Church hates gay people, what specifically have you heard the Church say that makes you think they hate and condemn gay people?

    I listen to Catholic radio every morning, I go on Catholic news sites frequently and I’ve read several books by Catholic authors about Catholicism and it just hasn’t been my experience with Church teachings that they hate anyone. They’ll explain that the Church teaches us to refrain from sexual sins, yes, one of which is homosexual acts. But the Catechism doesn’t tell us to have hatred for people with same-sex attraction. They say that we are to love our neighbor. Unfortunately, many people seem to think that tolerance means accepting and endorsing sinful behavior. True tolerance comes not from accepting, but from loving someone despite their sins (any sins, because there isn’t just one type). I accept and love the people in my life who are same-sex attracted but I don’t endorse homosexual relationships. I’m hopeful this doesn’t come across the wrong way, tone being a hard thing to convey in writing.

    I will add that I agree with the letter writer to an extent. I think it’s wrong to tar everyone with the same brush, but she should guard her heart until she knows a man better. I think that’s good advice no matter what you’re looking for in a mate.

    1. 13.1
      Mya

      Coming from a liberal with a lot of conservative friends and family, I hear “love the sinner but hate the sin” a LOT. And I think religious people don’t realize how condescending and hypocritical it sounds.

      For instance, in the Mormon church, that’s the creed (and the church is trying to look less anti-gay). But their stance is that they can love gay people, but don’t condone gay sex or gay relationships or gay marriage. Is it love to condemn someone to a loveless, sexless existence just because you personally (or your god) doesn’t approve of the sex that they are having? No, it’s not. Is it love to “love the sinner” but support enacting laws that curtail and reduce their quality of life? No, it is not.

      “Love the sinner, hate the sin” is deeply hypocritical. For most Christians I talk to, their “love” in that phrase is worth less than a used Kleenex against their support for policies that harm gay people.

      1. 13.1.1
        Tracy Trace

        Mya,

        I’ve heard “the love the sinner  hate the sin” multiple times.  While they have a right to their beliefs and some might be well-intentioned, it is one of my deal-breakers when it comes to romantic relationships.  They are quick to label gays as “promiscuous” , yet they are strongly anti-gay marriage. It really doesn’t make sense. Others compare it to pedophilia…apparently having sex with consenting adults is the same as having sex with minors…

        I’m straight, but I wouldn’t want around people  that “love me” but don’t accept how I was born or my desire to be with someone I’m attracted to. Basic human right.

  14. 14
    Ann M

    The most difficult thing when we meet anyone new is that our mind wants to “label” everyone based on very little actual knowledge.  Once we have a label in mind, our mind tends to want to assign other characteristics and traits to that person in absence of any observed behavior.  This political and religious category is like others – tall, short, good looking, age, etc.  We know one thing, and assume other characteristics.  It’s easier to judge than to observe.

  15. 15
    Josie

    I really like what Callie said above, about taking the time to state your values and beliefs. I’m a politically active registered Democrat who grew up in a liberal family and would steer clear of conservatives back when I was younger, but as I grew older I became more accepting of dating men who are more moderate to mildly conservative.  Over the past few years I listed myself as liberal on online dating sites, and dated men who listed themselves as “middle of the road”.  If the guy was being honest, that meant he could be a moderate of either party, or an independent.  Of course, many men describe themselves as middle of the road simply to expand their pool of matches.

    I would use the first few dates to gauge them on their beliefs and values.  For the most part, truly religious-right type men would not express interest in me, and vice versa.

    Thankfully, I’m now dating a guy who shares my political values and we enjoy watching Bill Maher together. 🙂 But I would not refuse a more conservative guy as long as he was respectful, open and in agreement on my main “deal breaker” issues.

    1. 15.1
      Joe

      The problem with broad labels like “liberal” or “conservative” is that someone could be socially liberal and fiscally conservative, etc.  So which label would you give someone like that?  If you take the time to get to know someone, you may find that their views are much more nuanced than a mere label would suggest.

      1. 15.1.1
        Christine

        I think people like that are generally called “fiscal conservatives” as a shorthand (?) I think the gay Republicans I know would also fit into that “fiscal conservative” group (they really are just in the Republican party for lower taxes)

  16. 16
    Noquay

    I am currently”sort of” dating a self professed Republican. I am a Socialist and the sole registered Green Party member in the entire county. A true Socialist that knows her labor history, used to have the old folks that helped organize the mines and fight for workers rights, formed co-op. Evan was right at the get-go. Labels are useless. The “Democrats” here in my lil town are more like Libertarians, hating government (but willing to avail themselves of govt services), being OK with drug/alcohol use. Many are racist or ignorant of the realities of people of color, suspicious of those of the highly educated, and very anti gay, anti abortion. Belief systems are on a continuum, reflecting local history/socioeconomics/ in and out migration of folks more than how they’re registered as voters. While we disagree come election time, we agree on being drug free, staying in shape, having a strong work ethic, constantly improving our minds, and not believing all and sundry in the media.

  17. 17
    Buck25

    Well, I don’t suppose I should be surprised this came up. Over the course of my now rather long lifetime, I’ve seen our body politic become ever more divided, and divisive. It’s come to a point where quite a few people of both parties don’t like even living around adherents of the other party, much less date or marry them.Once upon a time, most of us worried more about what was best for America, than for a narrow, partisan agenda. Over the last fifty years, that’s changed.

    There are some simple reasons for this. BOTH patios are lately controlled by their (increasingly) ideological bases, and those base blocs, though a minority of BOTH parties, have became increasingly extreme. What’s been learned on both sides, is that negative campaigning, works. Demonizing the opposition, works. demonizing groups and individuals that support the other side. works. Stirring up hate “energizes the voter base”…so that works, too.

    It’s not that we never had that before; go back 100, 200 years, and the politics of that time was nasty; it always has been. The difference is that an age of mass communication and social media makes the hatred a lot easier to foment and spread. The plain truth is that the majority of those who support both parties, and vote for their candidates, are NOT extremists, nor are they hateful. Many dislike the ideologies and extremists on both sides, but hold their noses, choose a party, and vote,either out of fear that one party is more antagonistic to their own cherished ideals and agendas, or out of the belief that one party on balance has a better solution to the nation’s problems than the other. The former, sad to say, seems more common that the latter; I get the unpleasant feeling these days that most of us vote against what we simply can’t abide, rather than for something we can really believe in. As long as so much political strategy depends on triangulating, and pitting one group against another to secure the greatest partisan advantage, it will remain so. I see the almost insensate bigotry of the religious right, and I cringe in disgust; on the other hand I see the over-reaching of liberal ideologues who think an ever bigger and more intrusive government bureaucracy is an unmitigated good, and I cringe; because every day I see example after example of giant, bloated, and largely incompetent bureaucracy failing the very people it was designed to help.All the while, I’m a social liberal, a fiscal and defense conservative, and I feel like I don’t even have a political party that speaks for me. Oh well, let the silly season begin…and listen to the hate.

    1. 17.1
      Caroline

      THANK you Buck! I totally get you. I am so lost by this election. No party representing me either. Am sure I will vote for least offensive candidate to my sensibilities. While all this is way to upsetting to me-I totally laughed out loud on my trek to lunch imagining being cut off in traffic by someone who was being chased by the “mind police”!

      bwahahaha-have a great day!

    2. 17.2
      amz

      I think a lot of people would agree. However how many of us will vote independent? Very few. How many of us take the time to get educated on a candidates actual record not the spin they give in commercials and debates? Very few. How many of us even know our representative’s name outside of an election year let alone know how he/she votes on issues important to us? Not that many.

      We can complain about how bad the system sucks as much as we want but we have to own our role in why it sucks.

  18. 18
    Caroline

    Oh my -I tagged you twice in the last comment Kathleen. It was obviously meant for Elizabeth.

    1. 19.1
      Caroline

      @Russell-listened to your link. Lots of information to process. Quite the time commitment but worth it. Thanks:)

      1. 19.1.1
        Russell

        If you don’t listen closely, you might assume that he is beating up on conservatives.  That is not true at all.  His understanding, after extensive research and learning is that neither side has all the answers, and that the reality is, you need both to keep the other in check.  That both have good intentions but both, if left unchecked would destroy society.  There is merit to that.  No society ruled by a Single party, was a good society to live in.  For instance, Iraq had a single party.  The Soviet Union had a single party.  A single party leads to tyranny because there is no opposition to confront them when they go to extremes.

  19. 20
    Ames

    Such good advice! This question could have been written by my younger self! I eventually realized If someone can logically explain why they believe what they do and aren’t extreme, I can live with difference of opinion. Does he really get into gun ownership, lower taxes (in theory) and hate the idea of late term abortion? I can give that guy a fair shake. However, if he’s the kind of person who believes my gay sister is going to hell or would sue me for an early pregnancy termination…yeah, there’d be no future.  But meeting people in the middle opens a lot more opportunities for happiness, I think.

    1. 20.1
      Russell

      You can be against things without judging those who do it.  I am against abortion, but my mother had one before she had me.  Do I hate her, or judge her?  No.  I also know that she deeply regretted having it.  Not because she felt judged.  She didn’t. Truth is, almost nobody knew about it and those that did lived her deeply and didn’t judge.  She simply regretted it and told me that it was for no other reason than the fact that it was her child, period.

       

      I am a Christian, so yes, I think gay sex is a sin.  But so is having an affair, many many other things.  AS a Christian, I must also acknowledge that everybody sins.  Myself included.  Thus I am in no position to judge.  Asking to endorse a sin is an entirely different matter.  I won’t clap my hands and smile gleefully and say, “isn’t that special?”  I just ignore it, leave people alone, and let them live their life.  It’s not my job to tell others how to live their life.  Christianity is not about telling others how to live.  It’s about telling yourself how to live.  But, at the same time, you don’t endorse sin, whether it is sins you commit, or other people commit.  It simply boils down to, “I think that is a sin, but I’m not your boss.  Your life and the way you live it is not my responsibility.”

       

      Do I believe in gun ownership? Absolutely.  It’s not a coincidence that crime decreases where gun ownership increases, and mass murders happen in gun-free zones.  Gun ranges, gun clubs, police stations, or any other place We here you expect there to be a lot of guns, are never the place crazy gunmen choose to commit their despicable crimes.  Furthermore, if you are not afraid of cops with guns, why fear legal gun owners?  Cops have an 11% error rather while private citizens who are legal gun owners have a 2% error rate.  This fact, along with the fact that crime reduces with an increase in gun ownership, shows that fearing guns in the hands of law abiding citizens is a phobia…an unreasonable fear.  Eliminate gun-free zones and mass shootings would be drastically reduced if not eliminated.

       

      Lower taxes?  I want tax policies that make sense, and an elimination of wasteful spending, as well as vigorous prosecution of corrupt politicians.  For instance, Nixon was impeached, and resigned because he was caught lying about the fact that he had knowledge, after the fact, of the break-in of the DNC headquarters.  That’s all.  Makes you wonder how Hillary is still in the race.  She is caught red handed.  At the same time, Obama is now caught, because he claimed to have no knowledge that she was using that email, but the latest release by the FBI includes emails from him to her, on that email address.  In other words, he lied.  It is dangerous to allow politicians to lie, to be caught doing it, and suffer no consequences for it.  I’m sick of living in a society that makes excuses for lying and corrupt politicians IF they have your preferred letter behind their name, and only want to prosecute them when it is the opposite letter.

      1. 20.1.1
        Stacy

        I agree with the first 3 paragraphs of your post. *slow clap*

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