The Rules: 20 Years Later, Do They Still Work?

The Rules: 20 Years Later, Do They Still Work?
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Confession: I never read “The Rules” back when it was released in 1995. I was 23, working in the William Morris mailroom in New York, dreaming of writing for “Friends.” I was certainly not studying “time-tested secrets for capturing the heart of Mr. Right.”

But this book became a controversial bestseller because – in a very non-self-help way, it told women that, “Don’t chase men. Men are hunters. Make them want you; you are doing them a favor when you are withholding. They need a project. You are the project.”

That’s a direct quote from this article by the wonderful Taffy Brodesser-Akner, who does a post-mortem on “The Rules” all of these years later.

“The key was to not appear as though you needed love; that was the only way to get it. Do you understand how many women have tanked a deal in the making by appearing to want love too badly? By revealing themselves? By openly wanting sex and companionship? By wanting it at all? By having it all? A hunter has to believe his prey doesn’t want to be feasted upon, right? (Right?) So how do you pretend you don’t want something you do want? “The Rules” was the answer.”

Most critics tried to point out how silly some of the rules were – and things like, “don’t accept a date after Wednesday” do smack of way too much game-playing. That was always my critique of The Rules. It’s inauthentic. It’s all manipulation and no heart. It’s all tactical responses to emotional issues.

It’s all manipulation and no heart. It’s all tactical responses to emotional issues.

But here’s the thing: a lot of it is spot-on. And with a little bit of nuance, which the authors did not have – it’s very similar to the advice I dispense on this blog.

Says the author, “The argument the authors of “The Rules” made was that society may change, but men want to pursue; women are supposed to be pursued. The independence women had achieved had alienated the men, and worse, women didn’t even know it. They didn’t know they were supposed to be different in romance than they were in school or in their corporate environments. They may have evolved, but dating hadn’t. Men hadn’t. After all, we cannot argue with a man’s nature (though maybe we could and should?), and we certainly can’t argue with a woman’s nature (though the defining feature of ours, apparently, was its malleability). We want to be loved and cared for or something, right?”

Mostly right. There are exceptions: feminine energy men who want you to pursue them, masculine energy women who see nothing wrong with pursuing men. But, for the most part, yeah, men reveal themselves in their actions and if they’re not calling, or planning dates or following up to commit as boyfriends relatively quickly, they’re not going to.

Brodesser-Akner does close with a valuable critique – one that I try to incorporate into my own coaching. Basically: you can’t spend your life pretending to be something you’re not. That’s the flaw in The Rules – it’s an act to get a man, but if it’s not who you are, how do you keep him? That’s why I tell women that they don’t have to change to find love; they have to choose different men – men who appreciate who they really are.

If this sounds like a conundrum, you’re not alone.

Q: “Can I be myself at all times?”

A: Depends on whether being yourself is working for you.

Q: “But I thought you said I don’t have to change to find love.”

A: You don’t have to fundamentally change who you are; you may have to tweak some of your actions, reactions, and beliefs to be more successful with men.

And that’s where The Rules converges with my Love U program. I’m not interested in game-playing, refusing to return men’s calls, running late to keep him guessing or any such B.S. But from all my experience, I have yet to see much compelling evidence that pursuing a man the way women often like to be pursued is an effective strategy.

Your thoughts, below, are greatly appreciated.

 

 

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Clare

    I have actually read “The Rules,” twice, and I do agree with the premise and with a lot of the advice. The advice about not pursuing is absolutely rock solid, and so many women ignore it at their peril. The advice about not making the first move to talk to him, or even look at him, is good too. I have found that a man who approaches you when you have not even shown that you noticed him is so much more keen than the guy you have to coax and help into approaching you.

    I also think the advice for a woman to be her best self is wonderful. There is a lot of advice in the book encouraging women to make the most of their looks and feminine charms and to accentuate themselves to be eye catching. That may not be politically correct, but it’s good advice.

    The other advice which is good is that the book advises women against baring their soul too soon. This is a mistake a lot of people make – they open up about their problems and their issues and their history in the early stages of dating, and it’s a bad idea.

    The problem I have with “The Rules” is that it is one dimensional. It leaves no room for women who are highly intelligent, highly sensitive and there is no nuanced advice. It’s a one-size-fits-all. There is very little room for women to be comfortable and be themselves outside of these coquettish creatures who are always trying to intrigue. That’s very exhausting. I think you’d find yourself constantly second-guessing yourself wondering if you “should” be doing this, or “should” be doing that, if you followed the Rules to the letter.

    I am absolutely all for mystery, but I don’t think it can be pursued as single-mindedly as “The Rules” suggest.

    1. 1.1
      Emily, to

      Clare,
      “The advice about not making the first move to talk to him, or even look at him, is good too.”
      Idk. We’ve read over and over on this site that some men won’t approach unless you give them very obvious signs and a woman’s idea of obvious is not usually obvious to him.
      ” I have found that a man who approaches you when you have not even shown that you noticed him is so much more keen than the guy you have to coax and help into approaching you.”
      This takes away any agency for the woman. Is she not capable of picking who she’d like to approach? What if she doesn’t like the guys who approach her? I don’t think there’s anything wrong with giving out “buying signals” or even approaching yourself. It makes it clear you are interested, but he would need to take it from there.

      1. 1.1.1
        Clare

        Emily,

        “This takes away any agency for the woman.”

        I personally do not think that the initial approaching stage is one where the woman has much, if any, agency. A bitter pill to swallow maybe, but that is what I believe. Your opinion may differ and obviously does.

        “Is she not capable of picking who she’d like to approach?”

        Perfectly capable, but then all she knows is how much she likes him, but not how much he likes her. He might go along with it because he is flattered, but if he did not make the effort to approach her, how much effort is he really going to put forth from then onwards? Men value what they earn and invest effort in. Just ask my friend who recently had herself auctioned off for a date at a fundraiser. The guy paid a lot of money to go on a date with her, but ended the evening by getting drunk, not by making plans with her. She texted him a week later telling him about an opening she had in her diary for them to go on their date, having heard nothing from him, only to be told “he can’t make it and don’t worry about it.”

        You’d probably say, well maybe he was just making a donation to charity and was never serious about the date. I’d say he wanted to be the masculine man and she usurped his role by taking the lead.

        “What if she doesn’t like the guys who approach her?”

        She doesn’t have to talk to them/go out with them. But at least she knows they like her and is not wondering about the guy who is aloof and lukewarm.

        Eventually, a guy will approach her whom she does like, because that’s what men do.

        1. Emily, to

          Clare,
          “Men value what they earn and invest effort in.”
          I agree, but there’s no harm in letting him know you’re interested… You signal to him — like in the olden days when women dropped their handkerchief in front of a guy she liked and waited for him to pick it up. In today’s world, you can approach him yourself and say hi. What’s the harm in that? I don’t mean in a predatory way. You just make conversation. But if he doesn’t ask for your number or do anything to push it forward … there’s your answer.
          “Eventually, a guy will approach her whom she does like, because that’s what men do.”
          Punch me in the face when that happens. 🙂

        2. Marika

          Unfortunately, in Australia NO MEN cold approach. Ever. Unless they’re drunk.

          This is my problem with “Masculine men do X”. No, masculine men in certain cultures do X. I feel like authors who make bold claims about entire genders should leave their hometowns first.

          Sometimes when I’m skipping around in my little A-line skirt with a hint of cleavage I see men looking. I feel like they would approach if it was culturally appropriate. But they don’t. Guys online will not only approach but HOUND. But then their profiles are typically full of “Ask me’s”. Is that masculine? Why do I have to ask? Certainly there’s anger and aggression in many profiles and I know that’s *masculine*, but it’s not appealing. I recently got contacted by username: HateTheGames. Another one’s profile opened with him yelling at me in capitals to not be rude.

          I’m not sure how The Rules lady would feel about Bumble, but I certainly like it. People seem more lighthearted on it, funnier. No all caps yelling. I have learned though after my initial contact to then match his efforts. One promising contact seems to have dried up (or he got busy). I messaged last, so now the ball’s in his court. Definitely no follow up reminding or pushing things along. So with nuance, yes, there’s value to The Rules. Probably worldwide. Maybe not in Iceland.

          But if you think you can stand around looking cute and expect some man to approach you then *lead* you all the way to marriage in downtown Sydney: ah, no.

        3. Clare

          Em & Marika,

          I realised after reading Marika’s response that I am guilty of the cultural bias which I so often decry on this blog.

          In South Africa, it is not necessary to “drop the handkerchief.” You can of course, but I think it would either be lost on the average male here or maybe even seem too obvious. In SA (especially where I live, which seems to have a high proportion of single men to single women), if you go to a pub or club as a sexy, attractive woman, you WILL be approached. You will be offered a drink, touched, asked to dance, with no effort on your part. Sometimes you have to bar them off with a wooden pole. I’ve lost count of the number of times I have been cold approached, so I probably take this for granted.

          Recently, my best friend and I went out for a girls night, and a really cute, 28 year old guy cold approached our table and attached himself to us for most of the rest of the night. Even though we told him we were unavailable, he still tried his luck with both of us. And bought us drinks. And tried again.

          So Marika is quite right. I don’t know what dating is like in other cultures. There’s probably a lot more nuance to it. And to be honest, the very masculine nature of men in SA can be a bit much sometimes. It has its downsides. But the lack of initiating on the woman’s part in the beginning is something I really enjoy.

        4. Emily, to

          Clare,
          “In SA (especially where I live, which seems to have a high proportion of single men to single women), ”
          God, that’s beautiful. What power! I live on the East Coast in USA, where the reverse is true. I’ve read that it’s better on the West Coast.
          “But the lack of initiating on the woman’s part in the beginning is something I really enjoy.”
          I agree. I just don’t see anything wrong with walking by and smiling at someone who caught your eye. I don’t call that chasing. You’ve made your interest known, but as I’ve stated about 4 times, the man would need to pick it up from there — calling, planning the date, following up, etc., in the very beginning. I am in no way suggesting the woman should nudge things along after the initial “meet-n-greet.”

        5. Clare

          Em,

          If you go to one of the local pubs where I live, pretty much any night, the ratio of men to women is about 11:1. I kid you not.

        6. Emily, to

          Clare,
          “If you go to one of the local pubs where I live, pretty much any night, the ratio of men to women is about 11:1. I kid you not.”
          I have some questions: Where do you live? Are the men appealing? Do they like blondes? 🙂

        7. Clare

          Em,

          I live in a town/borough called Hillcrest, about 30 km west and inland of Durban, South Africa.

          “Are the men appealing?”

          I suppose it depends what you mean by appealing. As you would expect, they vary greatly.You’re always going to run the risk that many of them might be too old or too young. South Africans are known for being a decent looking lot, so you’re bound to find several good looking lads in there. We’re a very outdoorsy nation. As I said earlier, the fact that they have masculine energy in abundance means they are lacking in sophistication, but if you sift through you I’m sure you’ll find some appealing ones, depending on what you’re looking for.

          I think South African men are great, but my personal issue with them has always been that it’s difficult to find ones with class and finesse and who can hold conversation on more complex topics. They’re rough around the edges… but some women like that.

          “Do they like blondes? ”

          I’ve been blonde for the last 2 years, and I’ve never had so much attention.

        8. sylvana

          Clare,

          A week later, she still, hadn’t hear from him? Obviously, he didn’t value what he paid for. Not one bit. And he did only make a charitable contribution.

          If he hadn’t followed up on a date he paid good money for a week later, it wasn’t her calling him that turned him off.

        9. sylvana

          Emily, Clare,

          This is where I get so confused:

          “the man would need to pick it up from there — calling, planning the date, following up, etc.”

          Ok. But then, when I show up, I’m still paying for myself? Or does that man then also pay? Are we sticking to traditional gender roles or not? Or do I slip back and forth between masculine and feminine just to please him?

          Clare,

          Rough around the edges, huh? Get the cot ready, I’m coming to visit 🙂 I don’t need class or finesse, or complex conversation…lol. I can get that from women.

        10. Emily, to

          Clare,
          . “As I said earlier, the fact that they have masculine energy in abundance means they are lacking in sophistication. … I think South African men are great, but my personal issue with them has always been that it’s difficult to find ones with class and finesse and who can hold conversation on more complex topics. They’re rough around the edges… but some women like that.”
          Those types of guys tend to, as a general rule, be better in bed. They have no fear and don’t need instruction. Although I’ve learned that just because someone is very outwardly masculine does not mean they won’t expect the woman to take over the first time and do everything. But I couldn’t handle not being able to hold a conversation, for the long term, or only talking about superficial topics. I can only talk about the weather so much.
          “I’ve been blonde for the last 2 years, and I’ve never had so much attention.”
          It’s a big responsibility being a blonde. You’re “representing” all the way back to the original blonde bombshell, Jean Harlow. Some women can’t HANDLE it. I’m sensing you can. 🙂

        11. Emily, to

          Sylvana,
          “Ok. But then, when I show up, I’m still paying for myself? Or does that man then also pay? ”
          That’s up to you. If I remember correctly, you don’t like the traditional roles so maybe you don’t mind doing more of the work in the beginning — getting the number, calling, suggesting something to do, paying for yourself. As a general rule, I think, yes, a man should pay for the first date, though I always offer to pay for myself and have no problem doing something free or very cheap.
          “Are we sticking to traditional gender roles or not? Or do I slip back and forth between masculine and feminine just to please him?”
          You do you. 🙂

        12. Clare

          sylvana,

          “A week later, she still, hadn’t hear from him? Obviously, he didn’t value what he paid for. Not one bit. And he did only make a charitable contribution.

          If he hadn’t followed up on a date he paid good money for a week later, it wasn’t her calling him that turned him off.”

          I see this slightly differently. The night of the charity event, they kissed and spent half the night talking, so there was obviously some interest there. However, he ended the night by passing out at the bar. This is where I think she made the mistake – I would have been thoroughly turned off by this behaviour. I may or may not have gone on the date with him, depending on the effort he made from there onwards.

          She, however, texted him the next morning telling him what a fun time she had meeting him, and sending him lots of pictures of the night. Too much, in my opinion.

          *Then* a week later – even though he hadn’t asked her – she texted him that she had looked in her diary and found she had a free Saturday (she is a very busy person) if he still wanted to go on that date. Now, we can speculate about his interest level, but this, in my opinion, is chasing on her part. Whether he was turned off by it, I can’t say, but – to me anyway – something felt off about it.

          First, girl, what are you doing throwing yourself at some guy who passed out at the bar instead of saying goodnight to you??
          Second, let him ask you on the damn date! He’s paid for it for heaven’s sake. If that’s not incentive enough, then leave it alone!
          Third, saying “Oh, I checked my diary and saw that I have a free Saturday a week from now” just struck me as condescending. a) He hadn’t asked; and b) to me, it makes it seem as if her time is more important than his. She hadn’t asked him; she had informed him. I cannot see a masculine man taking kindly to that.

          I’m not saying this situation would have worked out either way, but I would have handled it differently.

          “Get the cot ready, I’m coming to visit I don’t need class or finesse, or complex conversation…lol. I can get that from women.”

          If you like them rough around the edges, SA is the place for you. Diamonds in the rough by the dozen. I envy you that the lack of class doesn’t bother you 🙂

        13. Clare

          Em,

          “It’s a big responsibility being a blonde. You’re “representing” all the way back to the original blonde bombshell, Jean Harlow. Some women can’t HANDLE it. I’m sensing you can. ”

          I’m not intimidated by much, and I was a natural blonde as a child, so I like to think I took it in my stride 🙂 But I do think it’s possible that a lot of stereotypes are unconsciously projected onto blondes – stereotypes I’ve never embodied and was barely even aware of.

          I’m currently thinking of going back to my natural brunette – mostly because I’m sick of the hassles that go with being blonde (and I’m talking about maintenance ones, not social ones – the hairdresser visits are so expensive, and it’s been very difficult to find a hairdresser who does a good job consistently.)

        14. Emily, to

          Clare,
          “I’m currently thinking of going back to my natural brunette – mostly because I’m sick of the hassles that go with being blonde (and I’m talking about maintenance ones, not social ones – the hairdresser visits are so expensive, and it’s been very difficult to find a hairdresser who does a good job consistently.)”
          I hear you. I know the style in the last few years has been to let the roots grow out a bit if you are a blonde, but I never cared for it. My natural hair color is dark blonde with a reddish tint and I’ve left it alone the last couple of years, but back in the day … I dyed it platinum blonde. Every four weeks, religiously, I got the roots done. I had to use a special purple shampoo to keep it from turning yellow. My hairdresser would set my hair in velcro rollers in a 1940s pageboy … good times, happy times … Then she left hairdressing altogether, and I never found someone who did it better or who would do the roller set. She was old-school. She would always say to me, “Glamour takes time.” (And money!)

        15. Clare

          Em,

          That sounds simply divine. I am picturing a very Marilyn Monroe type set-up – Your hair in velcro curlers, you perhaps in a plush white terry cloth robe?

          I have had no fewer than 4 hairdressers in the 2 years I’ve been blonde. My most recent one left the bleach on too long and the strands near my face broke off completely (!) Luckily my hair is super thick so I can get away with it and hide it, but it was enough to put me off. My hair is naturally curly so I’m thinking of rocking the long, dark, curly “Irish” look.

        16. Emily, to

          Clare,
          “That sounds simply divine. I am picturing a very Marilyn Monroe type set-up – Your hair in velcro curlers, you perhaps in a plush white terry cloth robe?”
          Ah, scenes from “The Seven-Year Itch.” Great images. I’d look ridiculous with hair that light now at my age. But it was fun while it lasted. Back when I thought that stuff mattered much, much more than it actually does. Can I say now that I do very little with it unless I am going out? There’s no point in wasting time doing it for work.
          ” My hair is naturally curly so I’m thinking of rocking the long, dark, curly “Irish” look.”
          I tried to go back to my natural color about 2 1/2 years ago after highlighting it and the girl botched it. It was way too dark. So I said, “That’s it. I”m just growing it out.” It’s been painful. After 2 1/2 years, I still have some of the old color on the ends! UGH

        17. Clare

          “It’s been painful. After 2 1/2 years, I still have some of the old color on the ends! UGH”

          Oh Em, I’ve been there. Before I was blonde, I used to dye my hair mahogany and auburn. Can you guess what shades I had to pass through when I woke up one morning and decided to go blonde? That’s right, every shade of orange your imagination can conceive of. The bottom couple of inches of my hair still won’t lighten completely.

          While my hairdressers did eventually get my hair to a lovely light blonde, it has taken a massive beating. I don’t think any colour is more difficult than blonde to make consistent and even.

          It’s been fun while it lasted, but now it’s over. And whilst I definitely received a lot of attention, I have a nagging suspicion that I’ll be taken more seriously as a brunette.

        18. Mr_B

          How do you think your friend took the masculine role?

          She allowed herself to be selected by the largest bidder of pool of men that were bidding on her.

          Your friend didn’t approach anyone. She put herself up for auction. You friend didn’t have any interest in the man she went on a date with.

          The guy earned the date by winning the auction for the date and paying for the date.

          He wasn’t interested in pursing it forward after he got to know your friend. Maybe he started dating someone else.

          Men probably have a 20 – 30% chance of getting a 2nd date and men are expected to pay for the dates. Especially if OLD.

        19. Clare

          Mr B,

          She didn’t approach him for the initial auction, but she *did* text him afterwards to try and set up the date when she had no need to.

          He had her number. He could have asked her himself. He had already *paid* for the time with her so there was no reason not to if he was interested.

          Of course, he most probably didn’t want to pursue things with her. But this, in my opinion, was all the more reason why she should not have texted him to try to set up their date.

      2. 1.1.2
        Buck25

        “I don’t think there’s anything wrong with giving out “buying signals”…”

        Emily,
        Of course there isn’t! Really it’s simple, in most settings; all you have to do is make eye contact, hold it a bit, smile, and maybe say hello. Trust me, most guys with even marginal confidence, will, if interested, take that as a green light to approach you. You can if you wish take an additional step: if the guy you’re interested in doesn’t approach after the eye contact and a smile, sneak another quick glance at him as he walks past you. A lot of women do that subconsciously anyway, and smart guys look for it in their peripheral vision, especially in a crowded setting. If I saw that, I knew that woman was at least receptive to conversation. It’s obvious enough, yet you’ve done nothing awkward.

        1. Emily, to

          Buck25,
          “Of course there isn’t! Really it’s simple, in most settings; all you have to do is make eye contact, hold it a bit, smile, and maybe say hello. Trust me, most guys with even marginal confidence, will, if interested, take that as a green light to approach you. You can if you wish take an additional step: if the guy you’re interested in doesn’t approach after the eye contact and a smile, sneak another quick glance at him as he walks past you. ”
          Or the woman can walk past him and simply say hi. I don’t think that in any way conveys she’s going to hunt him down like wild boar! I just hate putting myself in the position of sitting around like a passive flower, waiting for someone to choose me. That being said, if I see a guy I like and I try the eye contact and smile or even to walk past him and he doesn’t pay any attention, I let it alone.

    2. 1.2
      RustyLH

      Clare, I don’t think it has to be exhausting, if you first decide what kind of relationship do you want. What type of man do you want. Do you want a feminine energy man? They are out there, to be had. If that is what you want…pursue, and pursue hard, because that is the type of man who will respond. But, if you want a masculine energy man, just sit back and see who approaches. Trust this…a masculine energy man WILL approach, if he is interested.

      You know how many men will say, about their wives, “I knew the moment I saw her, I wanted her to be my wife.” Well, yes and no. Even is right that this isn’t actually, completely true. The truth goes more like this…”I knew the moment I saw her that I wanted to get to know her, to pursue her, to find out if she is as wonderful to be around, as she is to look at, and if she is, I want her to be my wife.”

      That whole, “you aren’t really my type, but I would like to date you anyway,” thing, is just “the game” bs. Evan has given you women the inside info. Men NEED two things…a woman who is their type…a woman he loves to look at…which does not mean you have to be a super model…just his type, and then you need a personality that makes him feel good when he is around you. If a man sees those two things in you, and he actually wants to get married, he will, though his words, AND actions, make that very plain to you.

      The hard pill to swallow is this…when you sit back, and let the men approach you, it is very likely that you will lose out on a lot of meaningless sex with players…hot players. If you are having to approach him…if that is what it takes to get things going, he is either feminine energy, or he is not really into you. That’s the bitter pill. It will start to become clearer as to who is in your dating pool. You know…Evans advice that your dating pool doesn’t consist of those whom you want to date, it consists of those who want to date you.

      1. 1.2.1
        Clare

        RustyLH,

        If you read my post you will see that I make it very clear that I think The Rules offers good advice, and that I do NOT think it’s a good idea for women to pursue men, and I never pursue them in my real life.

        Please read my post again carefully.

        The part I said was exhausting is all the *other* advice in The Rules about what you should and shouldn’t say, when you should and shouldn’t answer the phone, etc. The Rules is 100% about being coquettish and doesn’t really tell women of substance how to be themselves in a relationship.

        I was NOT arguing with the advice not to pursue men.

      2. 1.2.2
        Yet Another Guy

        @RustyLH

        I concur with most of what you wrote, except for “If you are having to approach him…if that is what it takes to get things going, he is either feminine energy, or he is not really into you.” There are definitely exceptions to the rule in this area. My current girlfriend approached me first on a dating site. I have been with her for nine months and things just keep getting better. More than 90% of the 100+ women that I met on dating sites after re-entering the dating pool did not make it past the first date and I pursued most of those women (i.e., no one who knows me would say that I am feminine energy).

        With that said, like most men, more women than not shoot above their pay grade when reaching out. In doing so, they risk being ignored, exploited, or ending up with a guy who leads with feminine energy. However, if a woman is willing to honestly assess where she falls within the female hierarchy and go after her male counterpart, she may find a masculine man who will rock her world.

        1. sylvana

          YAG, RustyLH,

          YAG, I’d have to agree. It’s everything AFTER the initial approach that matters. And it also depends on how the initial approach is done. You can easily hook a masculine/more dominant man if you approach him in a more feminine/submissive way. I’d say more easily than by just sitting around. That, I found, tends to attract more players.

          Let me ask both of you something (and I know I’m like a dog with a bone with this). Who pays?

          Providing is masculine. Therefore it comes to reason that the masculine man who wants a more feminine woman would not want her to step into the masculine role and provide/pay for herself, let alone for both of them. At least not in the initial stages. He wants to pursue, he also wants to prove his worth to her. He does not expect her to prove hers (because – once again, that would be her stepping into a masculine role). .

        2. RustyLH

          I have never asked for a woman to pay. Nor have I been the beneficiary of a woman genuinely offering to pay.

          Most of the younger guys I know, are starting to expect women to pay their way. In fact, I read a post where the guy explained that he and a girl he had been talking to online, agreed to meet someplace to get something to eat. When the bill came, he told the waitress it was separate checks, but to put the appetizer on his bill, since he was the one who ordered it.

          This is what most younger men now feel is appropriate. Many years ago, I spent a week with an Australian woman in Australia, and she told me that there, if the man does not specify, “My treat,” then the expectation is that you are both paying your own way. I see that same thing coming to the U.S.

          BTW, she said that this was “because we have what American women say they want, but don’t really want…Equality.”

        3. Yet Another Guy

          @Sylvana

          The interesting thing is that we split the bill on our first meet and greet. At my age, most women have been married and raised a family; therefore, being a good provider does not carry as much weight as it did when I was younger. What is more important is that a man is not a financial burden, does not have mental issues, and is not a substance abuser. My girlfriend was clearly not looking for a provider when she chose me because she is an executive in a large organization and her ex-husband is a medical doctor with his own practice; therefore, her net worth is significant.

          What is different about this relationship is that we have pretty much split the costs since the beginning. We also fell into domestic life fairly quickly. Instead of going out to dinner a lot, we found more joy in picking out recipes, shopping for the ingredients and then cooking together. It allowed us to build teamwork early on in the relationship. We are both introverts, so we also enjoyed having that time together without having to deal with the noise of the outside world. We still went out, but it was to listen to live music or some other activity that we both enjoy.

          In the end, my girlfriend was looking for a guy who she desired who had the confidence to deal with a high-power woman (she did not tell me that she was an executive and that her ex-husband is a medical doctor until several dates into the relationship). She wanted a guy who was strong enough to deal with her professional side while being masculine enough for her to feel safe while living in her feminine while not at work.

        4. Yet Another Guy

          @RustyLH

          “Nor have I been the beneficiary of a woman genuinely offering to pay.”

          If you are over age 40, you are dating the wrong women. I have read many posts by women on this site that claim that woman only offers to pay when she is not interested, but that has not been my experience. I have had several women insist on picking up the tab on the first date when they were very interested. However, then again, I only date smart, successful women.

        5. Marika

          Rusty

          As someone who’s spent more than a week in Australia – what that women told you is just her experience, her opinion. Many (not all) men will pay for the first date. But in my experience, they never spell it out. You find out when the bill arrives. After one or two dates, paying generally becomes more even. But not always. My brother, for instance, has always paid for everything.

          In terms of ‘equality’, it depends how you define it. Women are definitely way underrepresented in more traditional male fields (engineering, finance, senior roles like CEOs, politics), and would still take on the majority of childcare, cleaning etc. I do have friends happily in relationships where gender roles are reversed. I think the big difference is there are fewer rules in general in male -female relationships. My take is we’re generally more easygoing. We feel like Americans love over-complicating things. Is too hot here for that! 😉

        6. Yet Another Guy

          @Marika

          “We feel like Americans love over-complicating things. Is too hot here for that! ”

          That’s funny.

    3. 1.3
      Marika

      I’m not sure it’s about ‘valuing what’s harder to come by’. Obviously I’m not a man, so I don’t know for sure. I know Evan values his wife for being so easy going and making dating/relationships easy, fun and no-games/drama. He encourages us to mirror but NOT be ‘hard to get’. Certainly not hard work.

      I personally think instead it’s that everyone, and maybe more so men, want the space and time to make their own decisions with zero pressure. I certainly want that. If I feel anyone is pressuring me to spend time with them, reminding me they exist, forcing me to contact them or to see them on their terms – I might do it depending on the relationship – but I won’t really enjoy it or warm to them.

      Of course you don’t passively let people walk all over you, I just think being ‘chosen’ has value as it’s a decision made by the other person. They weren’t coaxed into it. So there’s no obligation involved. Not because they value things which are more work.

  2. 2
    Donna

    “Do you understand how many women have tanked a deal in the making by appearing to want love too badly? By revealing themselves?” Too true, and this happened to me very recently. 4th date and we were heavily making out, but I told him that I wasn’t doing this just for fun, but that I wanted him to be my boyfriend. He said he liked me, respected me, and enjoyed my company, but that maybe we should save that part until he’d sorted some things out. We never made it to our next scheduled date. Good thing though, I did a little online snooping and found he’d had a brief one-year 3rd marriage he’d failed to tell me about, that was only final 3 months before. Saved me from that heartache, at least.

    1. 2.1
      RustyLH

      Donna, I don’t think that you caused a relationship to tank by telling the guy you wanted serious relationship. I think it tanked because he never wanted a serious relationship. I definitely want to be the pursuer, and have always been extremely attracted to a more demure woman…more feminine…less manly, etc., but if I have pursued, and she then tells me wants something serious, that’s not going to turn me off.

      I also do not believe that to be pursued, a woman has to act like she does not want a serious relationship. In fact, in my opinion, that works just fine. That’s how it used to work, when things actually worked between men and women. Women didn’t jump from casual relationship to casual relationship. They wanted a serious relationship, period, and the man had to pursue her, to get her to let him be the one to provide that serious relationship. It was simply understood that this was what the woman was after…a serious relationship, and so she wasn’t going to date just anybody, just to date.

      1. 2.1.1
        Donna

        Thank you, Rusty, and I do believe that to be the case, which is why I wish he’d have told me on the first or second date about his recent third divorce. I liked him enough to be a friend in that case, but not intimate, because what would have been in it for me, long term, except getting hurt? I know he liked me, but was not ready whatsoever. He broke things off, but didn’t tell me the real reason why. I had to hunt and find that out.

        I like your description of how things used to work, and that is the way I want it to be. I’d rather be alone otherwise. Modern women have done themselves a disservice making sex so free and easy that a man seldom has to do anything at all.

        1. sylvana

          Donna,

          True. Whores and mistresses throughout the ages did ask at least for a little bit of pay. Women of lower standing in society were raped on a regular basis if they didn’t put out willingly. Although if a man buys a woman a drink these days, I guess he paid for it as well, and she wasn’t providing it for free.

          We have to quit thinking that there was ever a time when sex was not free and easy for a man. It’s simply not true. Only women of certain levels of society were off-limits. And even they had their scandals before they were married. And if pure, after they had provided heirs to their husbands, they took lovers. Such was the norm.

          Honestly, I find it a bit insulting to say that women should have to make a man work for sex. Because essentially, that’s saying a woman BUYS things with sex. Which basically makes her the equivalent of a whore, a mistress, or an escort. She gets paid for sex, in one way or another. There is absolutely zero difference. It completely devalues what a relationship should be about.

          And a woman can casual date just fine without having sex. The dating and relationship part is the bigger issue.

      2. 2.1.2
        Emily, to

        RustyLH,
        “It was simply understood that this was what the woman was after…a serious relationship, and so she wasn’t going to date just anybody, just to date.”
        Do you honestly think that women years ago never accepted a date just to have a date?

      3. 2.1.3
        sylvana

        RustyLH,

        It sounds like you’re thinking a bit more along the lines of a relationship with more dominant/submissive (D/S, not necessarily BDSM) nuances. Although I overall agree with you.

        That being said, though, that also meant that HE was also NOT casually dating. Pursing women for sex, yes. But not for casual dating. If he dated, he was pursuing something serious.

        And that’s the problem nowadays. A lot of men want women to still stick to their roles, yet do not provide the balance. In other words, he gets to do whatever he wants, but she better be behaving a certain way. It doesn’t work that way.

        1. RustyLH

          Sylvana,

          Some men..

          People too often use the dumb cliches such as that in the past, women were supposed to remain virgins, but men were encouraged to go out there and have tons of sex. Completely not true. Was that true in some circles…sure.

          When I was a kid, we lived 3 houses from a young guy who was one of the best looking guys in the town. A young guy, recently out of school. He decided that a particular girl was the girl of his dreams, but she rejected him. Why? In her words, because he was a male whore.

          Also, the term philanderer exists because at one time, a man who dallied with many women was frowned upon.

          But to think that in a time, when women were supposed to remain virgins, that every man was out having loads of sex, and being patted on the back for it, is absurd. The truth is, most men were also virgins when they got married.

          What made the system used to work, was that because sex was not free and easy to get, you had more assortative pairing when it came to sex. The men who were in the top 20% could not waste time dallying with women they were not interested in long term.

          Courting takes time and effort, and money, and we only have so much of it to go around. You simply can’t properly court several women at one time. Oh sure, if you are rich, you have enough resources to do so, but likely not the time. Think of courting being more like dating today, where you have become exclusive with somebody, but not yet declared that you are exclusive.

          So, the point here is that very quickly, usually while they were in high school, and maybe college, people learned very quickly who their dating pool is. That is…who responds to their overtures, and who does not. Who approaches, and who does not. We used to talk about this time as being a painful time for most of us, because we learn that the 10s, the 9s, the 8s, etc..don’t want us. We learn who does, and make peace with that…at least most sane people did. Like it or not, for most of us, the 10s did not want us. There are only so many of them to go around.

          OK, so what we have today is a situation where, because of the sexual revolution, the higher on the ranking scale a man is, the more sex is available to him. Men at the top…the top 20% are having more sex than any group of men in history. For them, having sex is as simple as making a phone call, or going out to the clubs. Their chances of not scoring are low.

          I had a roommate who fell into this category. Yes, it was that easy for him, and the number of different women who stayed the night in our apartment was absurd.

          Now, because these men are having more sex than any group in history, and because marriage is a risky proposition for a man, many of these men are in no hurry to get married. This is what throws a monkey wrench into the works. It’s not just that they are waiting, often way too long, to settle down, if they ever do…it’s that way too many women think they have a shot with these guys, so they don’t settle down with their peers. They often won’t even date them.

          It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand that a large percentage of the virginity is being taken by a small percentage of men. This group of men are the real winners of the sexual revolution. They get to have more sex than any group of men in history, with less effort expended to do so, than any group of men in history.

          A woman who wants to ability to have sex with many many men, and never settle down, would also be one of the winners of the sexual revolution.

          The rest..lost.

  3. 3
    RustyLH

    “That’s the flaw in The Rules – it’s an act to get a man, but if it’s not who you are, how do you keep him?”

    That’s the flaw in The Game – it’s an act to get a woman, but if it’s not who you are, how do you keep her?

    This is how I have always felt, and yet the opposite of using game, is what’s called the direct approach, which just doesn’t work for the average guy. When I happened across a video of a PUA YouTuber talking about how he had learned that game did not work for him in Korea, and that he had to do just the opposite there…use the direct approach, to succeed with women, it made me want to jump on a plane and move to Korea.

    It would be so nice to be at a party, and have a friend tell me that a woman I find attractive, is single, and then literally walk up to her and tell her that I think she’s beautiful, and would like to get to know her…take her out on a date. That’s what works in Korea (maybe most of Asia), but not here.

    “That’s why I tell women that they don’t have to change to find love; they have to choose different men – men who appreciate who they really are.”

    I agree. When I was younger, I had a friend that had started to date a young, very pretty woman who I thought was perfect. I thought she was perfect because I liked the way she looked, but as, or more importantly, it was obvious that her primary love language was physical touch. It was very obvious. Wasn’t too long, and I realized I hadn’t seen her for a few weeks, so I asked him about her. He said he had to kick her to the curb. I was floored…thought he was crazy, and told him so. We discussed it. He didn’t like the fact that she was always touching him. Keep in mind, that was what I thought was attractive about her, because my primary is also physical touch. So, I asked him for her number. He wouldn’t give it to me. And that very thing happened many many times. Why? Like most of the good looking men I have known, he was a player…so they never want to see those pretty girls get into a serious relationship. He literally told me…”No, you are the type that would settle down with her, but I may want to hook up with her from time to time.”

    I really wish women would realize that hook-up culture is not working in their best interests. Used to be a time when a man like him would want to introduce the two of us. He said he knew we would hit it off. In the past, when being a philanderer was not a good thing…it’s was a derogatory term for a reason…men wouldn’t try to keep women single like that. They would introduce friends to women they felt would be a good match. These days, they are loathe to do so. It just means one less women to hook up with on occasion.

    Anyway, my point was that because he told her this was the reason he was breaking up with her, I have no doubt that she likely changed her ways…and possibly ended up with a guy like him, who was not big on physical touch. Who did that help? Nobody. She won’t be happy in the long term. Her relationship will feel cold to her because she isn’t having her needs met. This would affect her mental state, and thus her relationship with a man.

    Anyway, to me, the direct approach is actually part of pursuing a woman. Playing “the game,” seems more like a way to get her to pursue, to alter the power dynamic. That’s what all the “negging” is about. Instead of telling her how beautiful she is, you neg her, to knock her off her high horse, and back into reality. I don’t think that would be necessary without the sexual revolution/hook-up culture. I believe this is because the sexual revolution allowed women to have short term relationships, and sexual relations with men that they would not have, if not for the sexual revolution. In other words, a woman who is a 6 or 7, having multiple short term relationships with men who are 8 to 10, as those men make their rounds with the many women they come in contact with. In my opinion, when this happens, it confuses a woman as to her real SMV.

    I should note that I have known MANY men who have told women that they wanted to marry them, once they had secured a short term relationship with her. Not because they actually wanted to marry her. They knew they didn’t. No, they did so to convince her to become exclusive. For one reason or another, the guy wanted this exclusive relationship, until the time came when he would break it off. Just one example was a Marine I knew, who was living with a girl, but his true love was back home, first finishing high school, and then college. When she would come to visit him, he would rent a hotel room, and tell his temporary girl that he had to go away for a couple of weeks. He pulled it off so easily, it turned my stomach.

    Life would be so much simpler, if women would go back to being the gate keepers of sex, and make men show their true colors, before becoming exclusive. Men would need to use the direct approach, but at the same time, follow up with actions, and keep following up, putting in way more time and effort than they would be willing to put in, if all they wanted was sex.

    This would allow one of your Golden Rules to work so much better, Evan. That rule is the one where you say, “Your dating pool does not consist of those whom you want to date, but those who want to date you.”

    For men, this is pretty cut and dry, but for women, as I stated, can be confusing because men are way more willing to sleep down…but not marry down. In short, there are a whole lot of men who are willing to date a woman, than men willing to marry them.

    1. 3.1
      Paula

      I don’t know that being a gatekeeper is the magic bullet for any of this. I’m still recovering from being dumped by a man who was practically tripping over his tongue telling me how much he liked me, he hadn’t felt so good about a woman in along time, etc. He did it all – planned the dates, called every day, etc. We’d be halfway through a dinner date and he’d ask when he could see me next. It was all there or so I thought. We had sex after a month (seeing each other 2-3 times/week for 3+ hours at a time) and agreed to be exclusive. Two days later he tells me he is confused and things between us escalated too fast. I was super cautious about letting him drive *everything* because I really thought we had potential, and it still blew up on me. I guess the lesson I learned is that playing it all right doesn’t count for sh*t if the guy doesn’t know what he wants and/or can lie so convincingly until he gets what he wants.

      1. 3.1.1
        Donna

        Paula, I hate to tell you this, but I have enough guy friends who will talk to me about this kind of thing happening with them. He simply didn’t like how you are in bed. For whatever reason, it didn’t work for him, so he cut and ran. I know it is bad behavior, but it happens. I’ve also experienced the same thing – things are great, we’ve gone out multiple times, then once I slept with them, there was some reason. I guess the same could be said in reverse where if you slept with someone you really liked only to find out they had a very small “member”. What would you do?

      2. 3.1.2
        doncash

        Paula, I hate to tell you this, but I have enough guy friends who will talk to me about this kind of thing happening with them. He simply didn’t like how you are in bed. For whatever reason, it didn’t work for him, so he cut and ran. I know it is bad behavior, but it happens. I’ve also experienced the same thing – things are great, we’ve gone out multiple times, then once I slept with them, there was some reason. I guess the same could be said in reverse where if you slept with someone you really liked only to find out they had a very small “member”. What would you do?

        1. Paula

          I dumped him BTW – I refused to invest any more of myself into his confused state.

      3. 3.1.3
        Kath

        @Paula,

        Sorry that happened to you; I’ve had a similar experience. Those are not mature, quality men who are emotionally available. He might have been a love bomber. Sounds like you did nothing wrong. Heal, recover, and NEXT.

      4. 3.1.4
        Selena

        Paula: “I don’t know that being a gatekeeper is the magic bullet for any of this.”

        A woman can be a gatekeeper in any way she chooses. Exclusivity, time, evaluating a man’s character and effort. Won’t prevent him from leaving though if he decides she’s not the one for him or just loses interest for whatever reason.

    2. 3.2
      sylvana

      RustyLH,

      “In the past, when being a philanderer was not a good thing”

      When was that? Less than 200 years ago, prostitution was one of the widest spread, most lucrative industries in the US. New York City was the prostitution capital of the United States. In 1841, between three- to ten thousand prostitutes worked in New York City alone, everywhere, outside, inside, in public, including in exquisite theaters, where they propositioned men in front of their wives. They also regularly serviced men at work. Higher end prostitutes earned the equivalent of what would be $100,000-$300,000 per year nowadays. An insane amount of money for that time.

      And that’s just prostitution alone, and not accounting for mistresses, a fun romp with a barmaid, a household employee, etc.

      So you’re talking about what – Late 1800s to about 1960s/70s? Less than 100 years? During which being a philanderer or cheater was dismissed with a wink and a “boys will be boys” attitude?

      As much as I would love to think that there ever was a time we could return to where things were oh-so-wonderful, reality is, that time never existed. As a matter of fact, it’s harder nowadays for men to get sex than ever before. It’s no longer the norm for men to get serviced at work, in pubs, out in the open in front of everyone. We made public sex illegal. Shoot, we made prostitution illegal (not like it still isn’t rampart, and – in my opinion – should still be legal).

      Nowadays, a man has to find a willing woman, or risk arrest.

      1. 3.2.1
        RustyLH

        Fun facts. In the move to the Americas, men led the way. In the push into the West, men led the way. Sounds romantic…it wasn’t. Loneliness was the order of the day for most of these men. In time, the numbers leveled out, somewhat. Those prostitutes made so much money because there were so many men who had no prospects of a relationship, but they had the money to purchase sex occasionally.

        Another fun fact…Mistresses were the playground of rich men, because you typically had to support this women. Put her up in an apartment, and also financially support kids that resulted from this affair.

        The vast majority of men did not have a mistress…ever.

        “During which being a philanderer or cheater was dismissed with a wink and a “boys will be boys” attitude?”

        Gender Studies propaganda. The reality is that the term Philanderer was a derogatory term.

        From the Cambridge English Dictionary:

        philanderer
        noun [ C ]
        old-fashioned disapproving

        Gender Studies should have a more truthful title…Gender Distortions.

  4. 4
    Jeremy

    If a woman wants to attract a mountain-climber, she’d do well to dress up as Mt Everest. The challenge would be irresistible to a climber, he’d expend all kinds of effort and resources to conquer her. Problem is, relatively few who climb Everest once do so a second time, and fewer still a third. Sort of a “been there, done that, no longer on my list” type thing. So rather than asking how to attract a mountain-climber, perhaps the better question is WHETHER to attract a mountain-climber.

    A woman acting out her version of “the rules” would not have worked with me. But then, I’m not every woman’s cup of tea. Many seem to prefer the mountain-climbers.

    1. 4.1
      Marika Friday Fun

      FYI Jeremy

      You now have 11 hours until my Sabbath ends to regale me with another Dad joke…
      😉

      1. 4.1.1
        Jeremy

        11 hours until it starts, you mean. From the biblical paraphrase, “for 6 days he toiled (telling dad jokes) , but on the seventh day he stopped and rested… And it was good.”

        Man at restaurant to waitress: “Excuse me miss, can you tell me about the menu please?”
        Waitress: [slaps the guy across the face] “those guys are none of your damn business!”

        Why can’t a nose be 12 inches long?
        – because then it’d be a foot

        1. Marika

          Omgoodness! That’s a Dad joke for teens 😉

          You’ve outdone yourself J. Enjoy your day of rest.

        2. RustyLH

          Sunday is not the Sabbath. Saturday is. Good Friday is called what it is, for a reason. It’s the day Jesus died…he died just before the Sabbath started, which is sunset Friday, and lasts until sunset Saturday.

          I know a lot of people are confused about that, but yes, Saturday is the 7th day, and always has been. Constantine, in an effort to appease Pagans, and bring them into Christianity, changed the day of worship to Sunday. This, they do not call “the Sabbath.” They call it, “The Lord’s Day.”

        3. Jeremy

          Lol. Thank you Rusty. I’m aware.

        4. Marika

          Rusty

          Did you happen to see the light-hearted, joking nature of that interaction between me and Jeremy? We’re both from religious families and attended religious schools – we don’t need a religion lesson, thanks. Read the room dude.

    2. 4.2
      jo

      Jeremy, exactly. Not that there’s anything wrong with mountain-climbing men. But too often, those who promote the Rules label men who would let women pursue them as ‘betas’ or ‘feminine-energy.’ And the implication to all of us – men and women – is that no women want THOSE men. I don’t think that’s true, and don’t like the labels of beta or feminine energy. There are simply men who are fine with women doing a bit of the pursuing. That doesn’t make them ‘lesser.’ If anything, that seems some of them more thoughtful and open-minded. No need to slap a label on them or imply that they are worth less.

      In fact, isn’t that part of what the MeToo movement has brought to the surface: that many women don’t like the overly aggressive pursuing nature of some men? That’s another assumption we need to do away with – that women enjoy hot pursuit under all circumstances. Basically, we need to drop the labels and the dichotomies and over-simplifying.

      1. 4.2.1
        RustyLH

        I don’t think that there are no women who want betas…the point is that many women who want Alphas, act in a manner that is suited to being with a Beta, not an Alpha.

        Then there are women who clearly do want a Beta, but chase after Alphas.

        You can also find an article where the researchers were befuddled. They expected one thing, but research showed something else…that something else was that even feminists preferred what they termed, “benevolent chauvinists/sexists.’

        https://www.psypost.org/2018/07/study-finds-women-including-feminists-attracted-benevolently-sexist-men-51693

        Some guys did a YouTube interview video on a college campus, and asked women there several questions. Long story short, the answers the women gave support that article above. The first question was whether they considered themselves a feminist. They all did. But, the rest of the questions asked things like, whether they preferred the man do all the date planning…not asking them for input.

        The problem here is that too many people don’t understand that when we talk about these things, the norm is being discussed, not the exceptions, or the minority.

        The Myers-Brigs also supports this. Yes, you are right, not all women are suited to be with an Alpha. If your code ends in TJ, you are a “natural leader.” Of those who test as a TJ, 30% are women. So those women are likely to be better suited to be with a Beta man. A man who is not a leader. A man who is better suited to be the follower in a relationship.

        I myself an an ENTJ. The second rarest personality type. I won’t follow a woman. That does not mean I am a tyrant. A tyrant is not a leader. A leader leads, a Tyrant is a bully who pushes. Huge difference. I go in the direction I am going to go…if the woman wants to follow, she can. Nobody is forcing her. This is the way any man who is a natural leader, will behave. The train is leaving the station…get on, or don’t…your choice.

        1. Jeremy

          Oy, Rusty, so much of this is wrong or misinterpreted I hardly know where to start. I won’t argue the point. It’s impossible to argue with an Idealist who believes he’s a Rational. It’s so easy to mis-type ourselves in those handy personality tests based on what we want to believe. The handiest cleaver to sort the two is that the Idealist is wedded to a world-view while the Rational picks and chooses his views like colours on a palette – what works at any given time. He does not say “an ENTJ doesn’t follow no woman!” he does whatever is needed in the moment as a praxeology, and parses what is needed when.

        2. jo

          Rusty, I appreciate your points but think that the article you linked does not support the argument of women preferring ‘alpha males.’ The study showed that all women preferred men who cherish them. One of the authors himself acknowledges that there is not a correlation between a man treating a woman this way during dating and whether he is more ‘traditional’ (alpha) in the marriage. My take – which I think you may have missed the first time – is that labels oversimplify and don’t always represent reality. This study did not show a preference of the stereotypical alpha over beta, because either of these types can cherish women.

          I don’t think it’s much of a mystery that all people, male or female, prefer those who cherish and value them. Regardless of status or Myers-Briggs type.

        3. RustyLH

          Jeremy, so much wrong with your statement. First, the personality tests ask questions about you, such as, do you like going to parties, or would you rather go home and curl up with a good book…do you keep a very tidy work space, or is it cluttered. I answered those honestly.

          Second, I had a professor who was certified to write tests for the Myers-Briggs. He gave us a test so long, we had to take it home. I consulted my wife while doing it. We were not told it was a personality test. We were told it would simply be used to create diverse project teams…which it was. Every Myers-Briggs quiz/test I have taken, always lists me as an ENTJ, no matter what questions they ask, and to that point, I never gave any thought to how answering a question would affect the outcome.

          Finally, if you are a TJ, you are a natural leader. That’s just a fact, and a rational understands this, and doesn’t try to overthink it. Simply put, a natural leader is not going to be happy in a long term relationship where a woman is constantly fighting for control, and trying to lead him.

          This is not to say that I have to be the boss in everything. That would be absurd. For instance, if the woman is a professional cook, and has had much schooling in this art, it would be absurd for me to think that I have to tell her what to do in the kitchen. This would be her expertise, and so, when we are cooking together, I am simply going to assist her, and allow her to lead in this endeavor. I should note that I don’t make it a practice of telling women what to do. There is a huge difference between being a leader, and being a boss, and being a tyrant. I’m not a woman’s boss, and I’m not a tyrant.

          But in the overall, no, I would not be comfortable in a relationship where a woman is “trying to wear the pants” in the relationship. It would be exhausting, tedious, and would not give me, emotionally, what I need in a relationship.

          A rational person doesn’t try to force a square peg through a round hole.

        4. RustyLH

          Jo,

          Thanks for the reply. I don’t think the article supported that women JUST want somebody who will cherish them. They do want that, but also tend to be more attracted to men whom they see as leaders…as Alphas. You can say that’s traditional, and maybe it is, but the study itself noted this, and men have tested this many times, and some have even made YouTube videos. When asked, women wanted a man that takes charge, and gets things done. For instance…this was one of the examples…women overwhelmingly preferred a man plan out all the details of the date, and just informed her when to be ready, and what type of attire would be appropriate. They preferred this over a man who consulted them about every last detail of the date.

          Of course, the benevolent part has to come in also, so for instance, if she hates Mexican, he doesn’t make reservations for the Mexican Restaurant he has been dying to try. He saves that for a night out with his friends…or a day where he is running solo.

          I would see it going something like this.

          Him: Hey Suzie, interested in going out this Friday night?

          Her: Sure, what did you have in mind?

          Him: I have some ideas, but haven’t settled on anything yet. I will let you know as soon as I do.

          So, several hours later, he texts her, or calls her, and tells her, what time he is picking her up, what style of clothes would be appropriate for the places he is taking her, and what the name of the restaurant is, as well as the types of food they serve. If he has something planned for before, or after the dinner, he would include that, such as a movie, or show, or concert, or activity he has planned, so she is completely aware of what is planned for the night.

          He would then tell her to let him know if any part of the itinerary does not work for her, so he can figure something else out. For instance, if she says that she got sick the last time she ate at that restaurant…fine, I cancel the reservations, and find a different restaurant. It’s even fine if she suggests a restaurant as a substitute. A red flag, however, is if she is constantly having issues with the plans I make. Something is going on there, if that is what’s happening.

        5. Jeremy

          Rusty, I’m on vacation, sitting by a glassy- calm lake, drinking a glass of wine with my wife after having put the kids to bed. So I’m gonna pull a George Costanza and do the opposite of what I’d normally do. I’m going to let this go. For while I routinely test as a personality type containing T and J (and it ain’t Tijuana), I am and have always been content to let others take the lead unless forced to do so myself. It is easier to smile and shake my head from the sidelines. I LOVE being told “that is just a fact” about totally unsubstantiated things, though not in my statistics and research analysis class. And even more, I love being told that these things are indeed substantiated… By the people like the ones who certified your prof to write the tests. Did you know there are board exams for homeopathy?

        6. Marika

          Hi Rusty

          Regarding your first date script, and just speaking as one woman, while I get where you are coming from, I personally think it’s too much. Organising a date and being mindful of things such as how convenient a location it is for the woman and how varied the foods are to suit all tastes, is great.

          All the rest would make me wonder if the guy is a bit OCD / anxious / controlling. For instance: the dress code. Most grown women know what to wear to dinner and I think it’s unlikely most would want a highly fancy restaurant with a particular dress code for a first date. Too stuffy and OTT. I also wonder why she needs the entire itinerary spelled out? I think less is more in these instances. Evan suggests something along the lines of ‘hey, I’ll pick you up and 8, I know a lovely wine bar near you. Dress sexy ;)’ (tone indicating folksy cuteness, not a demand). I personally love that. Yours sounds like I need to sign, date and copy in triplicate or something.

        7. Marika

          Oh, J, you’re on vacation?? Jealous…

          I know a lovely spot for vacationing for your next trip: starts with an A and ends with ustralia!! 😉

        8. Emily, to

          Big Jer,
          “Did you know there are board exams for homeopathy?”
          I went a few weeks ago to a FUNCTIONAL medicine doctor. I’ll say it again: a FUNCTIONAL medicine doctor. (I can hear your rational side cringing.) She’s a MD with certification from the Institute of Functional Medicine. Best medical appointment I ever had. For once, I didn’t feel like I was on a conveyor belt of patients being rushed through my allotted 15 minutes. Functional medicine is the future of medicine. 🙂

        9. Emily, to

          Rusty,
          I agree with Marika. All those instructions are OTT. For a first date, keep it light. Keep it simple. I like the wine bar suggestion. Don’t make a first date a big production. Both parties are usually nervous enough. No need for added pressure. No need for anything overly fancy or, frankly, overly expensive.

        10. Jeremy

          My sister is a naturopath and my uncle is a chiropractor who does only homeopathy, Emily. I tell you, I don’t think those fields should exist – or at least not without a warning disclaimer that they are for entertainment purposes only. But some people swear by them – some because they fear and distrust the medical establishment, some because they want to believe in those things, some due to the placebo effect…. And some because they are tired of being treated like a piece of meat on a conveyor belt by their MD and are happy just to be listened to.

          Functional medicine…. Where ibs sufferers end up when all else fails. And other issues. I hope it helps you. I think there might be something to some of that stuff. You never know. I love the “institute of functional medicine” certification, though. Almost as good as one from the Excellent Institute for Excellence Intelligence and Omniscience. I’m an EIEIO grad, myself.

        11. Emily, to

          Jeremy,
          “Functional medicine…. Where ibs sufferers end up when all else fails. And other issues. I hope it helps you. I think there might be something to some of that stuff. You never know.”.
          We are such different people. Rationals don’t make sense to me. It’s almost like you are speaking a foreign language. Functional medicine is about treating the whole person — diet, stress, sleep, social support/mental welling, etc. Do you have any idea the kind of havoc stress can wreak on your health? I am going to an md but she happens to not see a patient as someone to simply hand a cream or pill or recommend surgery to. I don’t know why that philosophy is considered radical. It makes perfect sense. If someone has a chronic, ongoing condition, it can’t be treated on a surface level. There are probably multiple issues going on. Now, are there functional medicine practitioners who simply hang up a sign and have very little training? Yes. So one has to be careful.

        12. Jeremy

          I love the word “holistic” as pertaining to medecine. As if your MD doesn’t see you as a whole person and the alternative medecine practitioner does… But just forgot to add the “W”. Or perhaps holistic without the W means that they treat only your holes – nostrils, mouth, ears, urethra, vagina and anus? A HOLE-istic specialist?

          Kidding aside, I do understand how the lay public perceives that doctors treat only superficial issues – its easy to think that with how specialties work. And sometimes it ends up being sadly true. My wife once went to a gastroenterologist for stomach issues and she kept prescribing variants of the same medication that didn’t work… Until I suggested that the problem might be pneumonia, not stomach. Problem is, that while alternative practitioners purport to treat the whole person and not just the symptom, so much of what they do is unproven at best and proven useless at worst.

        13. Emily, to

          Jeremy,
          “Problem is, that while alternative practitioners purport to treat the whole person and not just the symptom, so much of what they do is unproven at best and proven useless at worst.”
          I’m done. Shouldn’t have mentioned it. It’s like talking to my friend who is super religious.

    3. 4.3
      sylvana

      Jeremy,

      I fully agree. A man who like to chase and conquer will move on the next conquest as soon as he has achieved his goal. Has to get his high somehow.

  5. 5
    MilkyMae

    “you are doing them a favor when you are withholding”

    Chasing a man for a date or for a commitment is probably not a good strategy. However, it’s not good strategy for men the chase women. Who wants a man who needs to chase women? Calling or texting multiple times is a buzzkill. Good looking, desirable men don’t need to beg women for attention. When you withhold from a man and make yourself less available, you are telling a normal man there’s not much attraction. Withholding is a loosing strategy for everyone.

    1. 5.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      The “chasing” you decry, MilkyMae, is a man calling, following up after dates, making plans. Exactly what you want him to do. No need to add on a layer of desperation.

  6. 6
    Michelle

    I think Evan is spot on about the “nuances.” This is not about changing who you are, but it is about doing the inner work to have the self esteem and self worth to organically make men want to pursue you. It will be a vibe you give off and very difficult to fake. And you being so busy with your fabulous life and fabulous self you are still making up your mind whether you want to go out with that juicy man or not. However, if you are feeling unsure, insecure, and getting too “thirsty” for a guy who has tripped your trigger big time, a little oscar worthy acting can do wonders. This is where the rules can come in handy as a guideline to keep you out of hot water. Keep your feat to yourself, live your life, don’t ask him to be your boyfriend on the fourth date, curb your need to respond to every text with lightening speed because you are so excited and relieved he texted. Don’t go to action movie you hate to please him and not want to “rock the boat.” He will be able to tell and it’s a big turnoff. Be a different, more confident version of yourself. It’s still you. We have many sides to us and we change constantly (if are doing it right) A little self discipline and focus goes a long way. Or you will lose him to a woman who understands this and is will to do the work, manage the pain and anxiety, to win the prize.

    1. 6.1
      sylvana

      I don’t know. This, to me, is straight up pretending to be something just to get the other person to like you/be interested in you. To me, this reeks of desperation worse than just being honest.

      Certainly, don’t cling to him like a burr. But if you think he’s “juicy”, just walk up to him and tell him “I think you’re cute, would you like to have dinner/etc. sometime?”. Then leave it at that.

      I guess that’s the difference between the American and European ways of dating. I will for the life of me never be able to wrap my head around why this all has to be so complicated.

  7. 7
    Kath

    @RustyLH,

    “….because men are way more willing to sleep down…but not marry down.”

    Those are not men; they are emotionally immature boys. Same with your Marine friend and player friend who wouldn’t let you date his pretty ex. It’s okay to have standards; it’s not okay to string someone along by lying about your intentions. And when caught in their lie(s), they shrug like it’s no big deal, “I never said that.”

    Sad the hookup culture is so mainstream. Show me a sleaze bag (male or female), and I’ll show you someone who had poor or non-existent relationship role models growing up. Children emulate the adults around them.

    The Rules does have some valid points, but as Clare also posted here, it is one-dimensional and assumes one size fits all. Too many nuances in real life; we all need to adjust/adapt.

    1. 7.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Kath – I’m not sure what you call “sleaze-bag” but I enjoyed hooking up for years (not my end goal, but a fun way to keep busy while searching).

      I grew up in a highly functional family with married parents, have been married for 11 years and coaching others for 16.

      So please don’t conflate hooking up with a lack of character or low self-esteem, thanks.

      1. 7.1.1
        Inga

        Paula, God bless you and good luck. But… A month?!?! 6 month MINIMUM, Also, the Paula/ doncash comment is ridiculous. Men are not that picky about sex. They’re willing to work with you. .sheesh. it had nothing to do with the sex itself, other than the fact that it was WAY TOO SOON.

        Rusty you may just have bit too much common sense for the people of today. Your insight is valuable.

    2. 7.2
      Yet Another Guy

      @Kath

      Au contraire! Men date down for sex all of the time, and not just emotionally immature men. Men do not think like women, not remotely so. We are socialized to be expendable. Those of us who have served in uniform and those who serve in public safety occupations know this reality all too well. For example, most men are only capable of experiencing joy, anger/rage, and indifference. The reason why men who have been in battle have difficulty re-entering mainstream society is because most men cannot process sorrow (in fact, we are not allowed to openly experience sorrow). Sorrow gets channeled into anger/rage. This channeling is by societal design. Why? Because a man who breaks down on the battlefield is a danger to himself and everyone around him. We desire men who will channel their sorrow of losing a buddy into rage directed at the enemy. Most of what occurs in basic training, officer candidate school, and the service academies exists to weed those will breakdown from those who will not. It is more mental than physical. The physical component is mostly part of the mental game. The socialization that is behind preparing men for this mental game has been with us for as long as their have been warring tribes.

      That being said, I concur with Rusty with respect to hookup culture resulting in more and more men to maintaining sexies on standby. Back when I kept sexies on standby in my twenties and thirties, it was a relatively rare thing. However, today, even average looking guys are starting to keep sexies on standby. Sadly, women are enabling it. No woman can be kept on standby unless she allows herself to be kept on standby just like no man can be financially used by a woman unless he allows himself to be so.

      1. 7.2.1
        Donna

        Thank you for stating this so bluntly. Seriously. It is what happens, and the sooner women realize it and either acquiesce or walk away, the better.

        1. Marika

          Haha Emily, yep!

          But the guys who act like the big experts on women around here are usually the complete opposite. And don’t even have much self-awareness. Around half of what they write is just factually incorrect. Or not appealing to women. Or they miss the tone of the thread completely and just lecture. When someone’s comments are consistently about telling other people what to do, especially when the other people are the opposite sex, I take their comments with a grain of salt.

          This bit is true (I think): wanting someone younger AND hot AND your exact religion AND in a great job (and probably tall) is just silly. Unless you’re bringing a lot to the table. Otherwise, why would they pick you? And why is half of that even important?
          I decided ages ago that because I couldn’t be with someone awkward or not funny or not gregarious etc, I was willing to not care about a lot of other things. I never cared about height. I used to care about education, but let that go. I sort of had an idea that it would be good to go on holidays, like my ex hub and I did (overseas, yearly), but I’m reconsidering that. Guys who are rejected for not having a higher degree and a 6 figure income or being 6 feet, I will happily date, if they have the stuff that draws me in. And, aren’t completely irresponsible, of course. And make me happy.
          Obviously I need to prioritize them being nice too.

        2. Emily, to

          Mariks
          But the guys who act like the big experts on women around here are usually the complete opposite. And don’t even have much self-awareness.
          Yeah, and the tone is pretty obvious … they WANT the women to not get what they want. It’s mean-spirited.
          “This bit is true (I think): wanting someone younger AND hot AND your exact religion AND in a great job (and probably tall) is just silly. Unless you’re bringing a lot to the table. Otherwise, why would they pick you? And why is half of that even important?”
          I agree.

        3. Marika

          It’s definitely mean spirited Ems, no doubt about that. They are hurt/angry at their ex-wife or some woman who rejected them 20 years ago or some princess on Match.com. Or how hard dating is. So they take it out on strangers on the Internet. That’s not that surprising.

          What I constantly find surprising is these types telling us what we want (or should want). Or how we think. Or what we should do. What makes a man wake up one morning and think: “I’m going to find a bunch of women who never asked my opinion to lecture over and over. People love that! And I’ll also throw in my thoughts on things I know nothing about”. Makes no sense! I’d love to understand the thought processes behind that reasoning.

        4. Emily, to

          Mariks,
          ” What makes a man wake up one morning and think: I’m going to find a bunch of women who never asked my opinion to lecture over and over. People love that! And I’ll also throw in my thoughts on things I know nothing about”. Makes no sense! I’d love to understand the thought processes behind that reasoning.”
          They want women to respond to what they think women should want or want what they have to offer and it ticks them off when women don’t fall in line. As we all know, you can’t make the opposite sex do anything. 🙂

      2. 7.2.2
        RustyLH

        YAG,

        They are not only willing to date down, many of them are willing to live with a woman, knowing they are not going to marry them. I think this is more the case when the guy is younger than the woman. While it’s never “all men,” the majority see the older woman is Ms. Right Now, not Ms Right.

        We might also see this if the woman makes a good bit more than the guy. Or, if he has a living arrangement he’s not happy with…so moving in with a girlfriend may seem like a better option, even if he knows it’s not permanent.

        It just is this way…and the sad thing is…what we have done to our society, has allowed these things to happen.

        This is where Evan can help, because while she may be fooled as to the guy’s motives and intentions, Evan isn’t likely to be fooled.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @RustyLH

          I agree with your assertion when the man is much younger than the woman. However, unlike men, most of the older women I have known who dated and/or lived with a much younger man knew that the arrangement was temporary. Women are nowhere near as delusional as men when it comes to pairing with a much younger partner. That being said, my girlfriend is four years my senior. She neither looks or acts her age, nor is she looking for a man to provision her. The days of provisioning the woman in my life are over. I do not care how hot or young she may be.

        2. RustyLH

          Oh to be sure, people do rarely win the lottery. Yes, occasionally, a guy like you will find a slightly older, or even a much older woman with whom, things click, and you make the decision to seal the deal. But we can both agree that this is not the norm, and marriage statistics still bear out that truth. While this type of relationship has increased, it is still rare…very rare.

          I met a woman who was the same religion as myself. It’s not a large denomination. Maybe even the smallest Protestant denomination. I will cut to the chase here. Her sister married a man of our faith, who was 5 years her junior. They have a good relationship. So, now that’s what this woman has her heart set on. She flat out stated that she sees what her sister has, and will settle for nothing less. A younger guy, who is hot, and very gainfully employed.

          This was 10 years ago. She’s still single. Another 10 years and even the high quality men her age and older, won’t be interested.

          Her sister won the lottery, and now she feels that this is the only way she can be happy. Meanwhile, she has turned away many high quality men who were interested. Of course, I would say that all of them were about 4 to 10 years older than her.

          She asked me about my thoughts on her situation. She stated that she can’t change how she feels.

          My advice to her was that she should just stay single, and accept that this may be her place in life. She lamented that men won’t change, and how unfair this was. I pointed out that life IS unfair, but that those men were no different than her. She wants what she wants…they want what they want…simple as that.

          I told her about Evan’s motto that our dating pool doesn’t consist of who we want to date, but instead, it consists of those who want to date us. I told her that clearly, younger guys weren’t anywhere near as interested in a serious relationship with her, as she was with them.

          I noted that because her sister hit the lottery, she thinks she will too. I asked her if, just because somebody hit the lottery and this allowed them to retire comfortably, does that mean she should put all her hopes in winning the actual lottery, as a retirement plan? She did smile at that and admitted that would be silly.

          I finished by telling her not to date any older guys…not until she can look at one, and feel like she is winning the lottery…do not subject a man to being her fall back plan…a guy she “settled for.” I told her that an older guy who married her, would likely feel like he had hit the lottery…and he deserved a wife who would feel the same about him.

          Finding what we are looking for is hard…even when we aren’t being unrealistic in what we want. Such is life.

        3. Emily, to

          RustyLH.
          “She’s still single. Another 10 years and even the high quality men her age and older, won’t be interested.”
          If there’s anything that female posters LOVE on this blog, it’s men threatening us with a “you will die alone” scenario. Keep it coming.

        4. RustyLH

          It’s happening more than ever. I suppose we could act like it’s not?

  8. 8
    Kath

    EMK- by sleaze bag, I mean someone who lies and/or leads on in the context of a relationship that isn’t really real- but keeping up the illusion of one to keep getting what one wants, and the other person has no idea. A guy supposedly in a committed relationship who keeps a side chick comes to mind. I’ve known more than a few of those, and unsurprisingly, their fathers did the same to their mothers. Not in every case, of course.

    Heck, I also did my share of hook-ups just to get laid when I was younger. It was fun with mutual no strings attached, where both understood. No relationship whatsoever, just FWB. And I also don’t consider myself low character.

    Didn’t mean to offend anyone by not being clear in my verbiage. My apologies if I did.

    1. 8.1
      RustyLH

      Low character, I suppose, is relative. Don’t take this as an insult, because none is intended. I only want to make a point.

      I was invited to a bachelor party by a coworker. I figured why not, it should be a good time. I expected strippers. I did not expect prostitutes. Further, I did not expect the groom, the father, and the soon to be Father-in-law, to all partake of said prostitutes. Both were still married. I assure you that if I were invited to a soon-to-be Son-in-law’s bachelor party, and he and his father partook, I can assure you that I would have let my daughter know what she was getting into.

      Did I think that was low class? Yes. Do I think they were low class? Yes. Do they think they are low class? I assure you that they don’t.

      Let’s just say that people have different views on marriage, and sex. Nobody thinks that they themselves are low class. If they are right, then nobody is low class, right? But I think we can agree that there are low class people. Or, maybe each person decides for themselves, who and what, are low class.

      As for sex…there has been research that shows that the more sexual partners a woman has had, the harder it is for her to naturally, properly bond to a man. Anecdotally, any man who has had multiple sex partners, including virgins, can tell you that there is a huge difference in how virgins bond to you. It is much more powerfully. Players, of course, don’t actually like that. A man who wants to be her husband, would.

  9. 9
    SparklingEmerald

    There were a few nugget of good advice in The Rules, but they were buried in such a deep pile of BS, that I felt dumber just for having read that book. Too much manipulation and games playing. No way am I going to stand there with my phone in my hand, seeing his name on my caller ID and intentionally letting it go to voice mail, then wait 24 hours to return his call. And I thought the notion of “training” a man to call by Wednesday for a Saturday date was very disrespectful towards men. Men are people, not circus animals to be “trained”. I wonder how many potential relationships tanked because the woman played these silly games, and the guys just figured “she just wasn’t that into him” and moved on ?

    I like Evan’s advice about mirroring instead. Let the guy lead, but also let him know you are interested. Return his efforts sincerely and enthusiastically. That’s what I did, and I am very happily married now. No games required.

    1. 9.1
      Selena

      SE,

      ” Too much manipulation and games playing. No way am I going to stand there with my phone in my hand, seeing his name on my caller ID and intentionally letting it go to voice mail, then wait 24 hours to return his call. And I thought the notion of “training” a man to call by Wednesday for a Saturday date was very disrespectful towards men. Men are people, not circus animals to be “trained”. I wonder how many potential relationships tanked because the woman played these silly games, and the guys just figured “she just wasn’t that into him” and moved on ?”

      This was the reason I decided NOT to read the book way back when it was getting so much publicity. It seemed so phony for both women and men.

      “I like Evan’s advice about mirroring instead. Let the guy lead, but also let him know you are interested. Return his efforts sincerely and enthusiastically. ”

      Long before Evan called it “mirroring”, I think many women just did this naturally. And were perhaps reinforced by the advice from more experienced women (or teen magazines): “If you chase a boy, you will chase him away.” Grin.

      1. 9.1.1
        SparklingEmerald

        Hi Selena – Haven’t seen you on here in a while, welcome back ! You said “Long before Evan called it “mirroring”, I think many women just did this naturally. And were perhaps reinforced by the advice from more experienced women (or teen magazines): “If you chase a boy, you will chase him away.” Grin.”

        I agree. I think Evan was a toddler when I first started dating the first time around, and probably in Jr. High when I was dating after my first divorce. But I was instinctively dating almost identical to what EMK advises in my 2nd incarnation of dating. Didn’t call it mirroring, as I hadn’t heard that term. In my younger, dumber days, I CHASED men. As I got wiser in years, I stopped CHASING men, but I didn’t play hard to get. And the instant I heard “the disclaimer” as Marni Batista would call it, I “nexted” the guy. Of course, I never heard the terms “the disclaimer” or “nexting”, but instinctively I recognized that behavior and behaved accordingly. One of my girlfriends said I was nuts and that I was spitting out men like Pez Candy. I asked why should I waste my time with a guy who says he’s not looking for anything “serious”, when I am not looking for anything casual ?

        1. Selena

          Hi SE. It’s a pleasure to see you are still commenting here. 🙂

          ” I asked why should I waste my time with a guy who says he’s not looking for anything “serious”, when I am not looking for anything casual ?”

          Lol. There were times in my 20’s and 30’s I might have benefited from having those words printed out and taped to my bathroom mirror.

          But for them to be effective, I would have had to acknowledge I really WANTED a serious relationship instead of having no specific agenda as I thought at the time. And…the “Mr. Casual’s” I dated back then, never came out and said they weren’t looking for anything serious. Their actions however spoke quite loudly that was indeed the case.

          You live, you learn. Queing up Alanis Morrisette.

        2. SparklingEmerald

          “Hi SE. It’s a pleasure to see you are still commenting here. ”

          Thank you Selena. In my very young dating days (16 – early 20s) I was all over the map in terms of what I wanted. I actually feel sorry for the guys who tried to get involved with me then. I didn’t want marriage, or children, but I wanted something serious, then I didn’t want anything serious, then I did, then I didn’t know. Then I wanted something serious but not forever. blah, blah, blah. I guess I was an anxious avoidant. Once I decided I didn’t want anything ambigous or casual, I wanted nothing to do with guys, who were like my younger self 🙂

        3. RustyLH

          “As I got wiser in years, I stopped CHASING men, but I didn’t play hard to get.”

          SE, you nailed it right there. Why can’t Western women stop playing into the hands of PUAs, and instead, allow men to stop playing “the game?” Why do men have to Neg a western woman, to make her realize that she is NOT too good for him, but that he would cherish her like she is, if she is the one he’s looking for?

          I said it here before, but when I saw that video by a PUA who had moved to Korea, and he talked about how “game” that worked so well in the West, was not working for him in Asia…and that what he learned was instead of “game” the direct approach is what works best to get a girlfriend…it made me want to get on the next flight to Korea.

          Asian women, want a guy to be very upfront about their intentions. A friend of mine met a Japanese girl, now his wife, in California…she was going to college there, and he met her where she was working part time. He fell for her, and insisted he had to take her out on a date…that he thought she was beautiful, and he wanted to date her…get to know her.

          I talked to her about it. She admitted that had he not been so forward..so upfront about how he felt about her, she wouldn’t have said yes.

          Just seems backwards to me that Western women are more suspicious of a guy who is being honest, and upfront about his intentions. And it doesn’t actually work for them.

          A better plan, in my opinion, would be to respond better to guys who don’t act like players…maybe women don’t actually know what a player acts like…but think they do.

          Maybe respond more favorably to the guys who use a direct approach. It’s more honest, which seems a better way to start a relationship. Then, just wait him out. See if he flakes out on you, and disappears for several days. I assure you that when a man has fallen hard for you, he wants to be around you every day. He’s not going to disappear for a few days. He’s not going to trust a text or two, or even just a phone call, to keep you thinking about him…not for 3 or 4 days, he’s not. Not unless he has no choice, such as a business trip, or military deployment, etc…

          One woman here, noted that she has made a guy wait a month. A month is not long to wait, for a guy, and even easier for a player to wait, if he isn’t being required to invest a large amount of his time during that month. You aren’t going to have to beg a man to come around, if he’s seriously into you.

        4. Marika

          I think you misunderstand the Asian culture, Rusty. I know you’ve watched a YouTube video and like many American men on here you seem to idealise Asian women in this fairytale ‘they will cater to all my needs’
          kind of way.

          But using the word ‘direct’ – no. Asian cultures are among the most indirect cultures on earth. Obviously you can’t lump them all together and there are differences, but Americans are waaaaay more direct than pretty much the whole Asian continent. I even found the directness in America confronting. And had to learn the rules of indirectness while traveling through Asia.

          Being polite, demure, not saying no, saving face – very important in that part of the world. Families are direct with each other, but that is a special relationship. Honour is important. There is probably more honour in their dating than in the Western world. But, in some countries men work late into the night, get barely any holidays and it’s ‘accepted but not talked about’ for married business men to enjoy the company of other women with their boss or clients after hours. So relationships aren’t that equal.

          Idealising ‘the other’ is fraught with problems. You don’t actually know you want to move to Korea, you’re just idealising those women and that lifestyle. But they will bother you in other ways. Be grateful for what you have.

        5. RustyLH

          Marika, you misunderstand me. I have watched videos, yes…but I have also been to Asian countries…Japan, Korea, Singapore, Thailand, and Hong Kong.

          I also had many friends who married women they met, while in Asia.

          You read things into my words, that are not there. You are WRONG. The direct approach is the way it works there. Maybe to varying degrees, yes, but what does not work is acting like you aren’t really interested, which is what The Game teaches.

          In no way does this mean to be rude. All I am saying is that if you are interested in a girl, you have to show it, not play games. This does not work in the West. Not for the average guy, it doesn’t.

          This also has nothing to do with PUAs. Yes, every man I know who married an Asian woman, while in Asia, all speak about how you do have to prove yourself. One of them bought his future in-laws an entire new set of appliances. This, to prove that he was a family oriented person, and that he understood this goes beyond just the woman he would marry. Something many Western men aren’t willing to do. Many are shocked to find out that their wife wants to send some money home.

          One friend, his wife sends $200 a month, to help out her older sister. Why? Because her older sister raised her, and sacrificed for her. In her words, she could never love a man who did not respect her need to help her sister.

          I also have a friend, a woman who went to Japan for business. She said it was overwhelming when she got there. She is an attractive woman, even by Asian standards. In her words, ALL of the men kept making direct overtures, giving her small gifts, and making it known that they wanted to take her on a date. She said she was not used to this at all, and she didn’t want to be rude, so she would just thank them for their gifts, and say something like, “I can’t this weekend, maybe some other time.” So the men kept pursuing. Finally a Japanese woman let her know that she had to be direct, and let them know that she did not want to go on a date, or they would keep pursuing. So she did.

          This is not the same as just normal day to day interactions with people. Asian countries tend to be crowded, so they value their privacy. Being invited to a Korean, or Japanese person’s house is a huge deal, so you take a small gift. Something like a bottle of wine, if invited to dinner. You don’t go empty handed.

          I know a lot about the customs, and have had a chance to put some into practice, such as don’t take any of the food until the oldest person takes theirs…which is probably just simply common courtesy and respect that we should show the elders in the West, also.

          You are also wrong about my perception of Asian women. You stated that I, “idealise Asian women in this fairytale ‘they will cater to all my needs’ kind of way.”

          Bzzzt. You should lose the stereotypes. I know a lot of you see Asian women as subservient. I do not. I have seen that they are not. I have simply seen that they do tend to emit far more feminine energy. I’m not the only one to see that. I posted a video far below, of a western woman who also sees that.

          I also saw another video of a Canadian couple in Korea. The wife admitted in one video that she had never felt unfeminine…until moving to Korea.

          My friend who went to Japan for a while, was more feminine when she came back. She said that when she compared herself to the Asian women, she felt more masculine than she wanted to, and that this came as a shock to her. She said she didn’t like it…so naturally, she started emulating the Asian women somewhat.

          To put it simply, I simply see a higher level of respect for men in general, and a natural softness…not trying to be something they aren’t. Nothing more ridiculous than seeing a 130 pound girl acting tough towards her 210 pound boyfriend/husband. It defies logic. Seen it so many times in the west, it boggles my mind.

          So yes, they do seem to start with a default attitude of respect, but they also expect to be treated with respect. It’s not a one way street.

      2. 9.1.2
        Marika

        Look, Rusty, I’m not going to get into a whole back and forth with you about Asia. Even though I live in the Asia-Pacific…

        That aside, I ask again, why don’t you don’t move to Korea and experience an actual long-term relationship with a Korean woman? Why keep going on and on about it – just put your money where your mouth is. And stop trying to change billions of Western women into something they aren’t and were never socialised to be.

        Btw, I never once said Asian women were subservient. Talk about putting words into someone’s mouth!

        1. Emily, to

          Marika,
          “I ask again, why don’t you don’t move to Korea and experience an actual long-term relationship with a Korean woman? Why keep going on and on about it – just put your money where your mouth is. ”
          I was going to post the same thing. Make a move toward getting what you want or stop going on and on about it.

        2. Sandra

          I am curious how he would react if a “western” woman insisted he provision her parents with new appliances (dowry). Or if a condition upon entering marriage included sending $200+ a month to a family member “out of respect.”
          Also, in what culture is it not appropriate to arrive at someone’s home empty-handed? It’s called a hostess gift and it’s normal etiquette, assuming it is someone you do not visit often or a special occasion.
          I realize Asians are more formal, but we weren’t all raised in a barn.

  10. 10
    Suzanne

    I’m 48, single, and know men like to pursue because I get asked out often. Many of those men are married, however, so I say no.

    So, their marriage to one woman doesn’t stop them wanting to pursue other women, unfortunately.

    1. 10.1
      sylvana

      of course not. They have pursued and achieved. Not they’re married. They have to get their “fix” somehow. On to the next thing. It would be illogical to assume that a person who wants to pursue would stop once they have reached their goal. They simply find another one.

      1. 10.1.1
        Suzanne

        I find it frustrating getting hit on by married men. I’m never flattered by it; I don’t want the leftovers. I don’t want to be their “fix.”

        Of course, when you turn them down, they call you a bitch, etc. So frustrating!

        1. Emily, to

          Suzanne,
          “I’m never flattered by it;”
          I agree. What married or taken men — the ones who flirt heavily or hit on women — don’t seem to get is that they’re off the playing field. Their attention doesn’t count.

        2. RustyLH

          Suzanne…why is it frustrating? What I mean is, why would it matter what they think, to the point that it frustrates you?

          If anything similar happens to me, I simply don’t care.

          I’m not married…I won’t care what a married woman thinks of me.
          I’m not obese…I won’t care what obese women think of me.
          I’m not a racist…I won’t care what racist women think of me.
          etc…

          If a guy is married, and can’t accept that you want no part of that, and it angers him, so what…let him be angry. Tell him to go home and romance his wife. If she’s too heavy so he’s not attracted to her, tell him to get her to start doing things that will burn calories…WITH him…like going for long walks, bicycling playing some sports like tennis, etc…

          You owe him nothing, including your frustration. Let it roll off your back.

          Wolves don’t concern themselves with the bleating of the sheep.

  11. 11
    ScottH

    From Levine and Heller’s Attached:
    “Say you decide to follow the advice of many popular relationship books. They offer guidelines to help you “land” a partner, such as: Don’t make yourself too available, say you’re busy even when you’re not, don’t call him— wait for him to call you, don’t appear to care too much, act mysterious. Presumably, you preserve your dignity and independence in this way and gain your partner’s respect. But in fact, what you are doing is behaving in a way that is not true to your genuine needs and feelings. You wave these aside to appear strong and self-sufficient. And indeed, these books and the advice they give are right; these behaviors may indeed make you seem more attractive. What they don’t mention, because they are unaware of attachment science, is that they will make you seem more attractive to a very particular kind of partner— an avoidant one. Why? Because, in essence, what they are advocating is that you ignore your needs and let the other person determine the amount of closeness/ distance in the relationship. The avoidant person can have his/ her cake and eat it too, so to speak— s/ he can enjoy the thrill and closeness you naturally project when you are together without having to consider your needs for intimacy and togetherness the rest of the time. By being someone you’re not, you’re allowing another to be with you on his or her own terms and come and go as s/ he pleases.”

    1. 11.1
      jo

      ScottH, yes. Not only might a Rules girl attract an avoidant man, she would not be entirely honest with him if she wasn’t really like what she was acting out in the courtship phase.

      It seems like the Rules are wrong on several levels when it comes to lasting healthy relationships. Women might attract the wrong men for them, they are not being honest with those men, and they might turn away the right men: those who would love the women for their real selves. Yes, I know there’s nuance – ‘you can be yourself, just more mysterious’ (whatever that means) – well, some people are not mysterious by nature. But don’t we all like people who don’t play games?

      Maybe that’s why so many women love that scene in Bridget Jones’ Diary where Colin Firth’s character says to Bridget, ‘I like you, very much. Just as you are.’

    2. 11.2
      SparklingEmerald

      Hi Scott – I wish we had “like” buttons on this blog, so I could like your post ! Now some people may say that there has to be “nuance”, but I bought a used copy of the book out of curiosity, and believe me, there is no “nuance” in it. They call their advice “a religion” and admonish their readers to follow it EXACTLY. No exceptions. Of course, it’s not really a religion, and there is no “Rules Hell” and one could apply some nuance to it, but then again, if you apply nuance, you are not really a Rule girl.

      Another aspect of this book, is that it could be a dream come true for a player who wants to create a harem. All he needs to do is find 3 or 4 Rules girls for his harem. It would be so easy with them acting all aloof, and rationing out time together to no more than 2 times a week. He could have a weekend rotation. Whatever girl he wants to rotate in for the weekend gets a call on Wednesday. The other 2 or 3 get a call on Thursday or Friday. He could call and leave sweet little voice mail messages and send flirty texts, knowing they are very unlikely to be returned, and there’s almost zero chance his Rules Girl will pick up if he actually calls. So he can look like Mr Devoted to his snooty Rules Girl, all the while being a player. When he tires of his harem of Rules girls, he can find himself a Woman who doesn’t play games.

      I am not advocating any of the above of course, but playing the game of “who cares the least” is a losing game. And following a courtship script that involves manipulation and dishonesty, just invites the same in return.

      1. 11.2.1
        Emily, to

        Sparkling Emerald,
        ” It would be so easy with them acting all aloof, and rationing out time together to no more than 2 times a week.”
        This is something I’m a bit baffled by. What’s wrong with 2 times a week? I realize you’re talking about “the rules” and players, but if he’s seeing one woman 2 times a week, how much more time does he have? How much is adequate time to spend with someone you are actually seriously dating but not living with? Don’t most people have jobs? Maybe a hobby or two? Maybe exercise a bit? Have errands to run? I’m not being sarcastic but a job alone sucks up so much time.

        1. Selena

          @Emily, to

          “This is something I’m a bit baffled by. What’s wrong with 2 times a week?”

          This is what also baffled me a bit about the post last week. A couple spends the equivalent of every weekend together, plus a mid-week lunch date, after 4 months of dating. And he is labeled an “avoidant”. ?

        2. SparklingEmerald

          HI Emily to You said “I realize you’re talking about “the rules” and players” yes, that is exactly what I was talking about, so your question about spending time with someone you are seriously dating doesn’t at all apply to what I am talking about. Comparing players to someone who is pursuing a serious relationship is an apples to oranges comparison.

          “How much is adequate time to spend with someone you are actually seriously dating but not living with? Don’t most people have jobs? Maybe a hobby or two? Maybe exercise a bit? Have errands to run? ”

          I guess each couple has to parse that out for themselves, but the Rules advocates 2 times a week as a MAX. They advocate 1 to 2 times a week. They advocate this strict parceling out of time for the ENTIRE relationship up until the wedding, and even to continue this games playing AFTER marriage. Yes, when I met my hubby, I had a job, errands to run and I liked to exercise. Guess what ? He had 2 out of those 3. (He was already retired ) So we would go the gym TOGETHER. He would work out on the machines, while I participated in a group exercise class, then we would meet for a soak in the Jacuzzi. One marriage adviser calls that “Do things separately together” Sometimes we would run our errands together or sometimes separately. Sometimes we would “co-putter” (a term I read on another marriage or relationship blog). If I had household errands he would hang out in my living room, watching TV on the TV he bought me (since I didn’t have one when we met) I would take a meal break and he would join me. I would go back to my errands, taking breaks, snuggle with him on those breaks, go back to whatever. The biggest problem was sometimes he wanted to “help” me, and I would have to tell him in some instances that this is something I need to do on my own. Other times he would notice something in my house needed repairing, he would offer to fix it, then I was the one who had to either leave him alone while he did some task that I normally would have hired out, or be relegated to holding the flashlight and handing him tools. (which I didn’t mind at all)

          I don’t really think there is anything “wrong” with 2 times a week, if it’s genuinely down to needing the time for work, errands, or even a girls/guys night out. What I object to is the deliberate, intentional manipulation of unneccesarily creating distance in the name of so called “mystery”. Demanding of your so called boyfriend that he make an appointment for Saturday by Wednesday in order to “train” him, as if he is some sort of circus seal, being trained to do tricks to be tossed a few crumbs of your time. And THAT is what the RULES advocates, manipulation and game playing throughout the entirety of the relationship, up until the wedding day and even beyond.

          As for players, they could easily work in time to be casually banging 2 – 3 girls a week, if they were all strict Rules girls. They would get no phone calls or texts asking for time, no “defining the relationship talk”. They relegate one girl to the 1X a week time slot, and if she were a true RULES girls, he would not hear a peep, and he could rotate 1 or 2 more girls in on the weekends. Just call one of his harem girls on Thursday to fake make a date, knowing she would reject him, and then call the girl who is up next in his rotation on Wednesday to land his weekend booty call.

          Of course, this is more of a fun mental exercise, than a realistic scenario, because what are the chances a player could find 2 -3 girls who really followed the Rules religiously ? And how many women can really be that hard core ? I knew someone who swore by the Rules. She talked a tough line about how she mercilessly followed the Rules, but the RULES all flew out the window when she met her boyfriend.

        3. Emily, to

          Sparkling Emerald,
          In terms of the errand running, I guess I’ve just always wanted to get that out of the way on my own. Errands bore the bejesus out of me and I don’t really want to take someone with me.
          ” What I object to is the deliberate, intentional manipulation of unnecessarily creating distance in the name of so called “mystery”.
          I thought, from what I read about it,”The Rules” was retrograde. I’m not a fan, and I don’t know how you possibly maintain mystery once you’re married and living together.
          “As for players … They relegate one girl to the 1X a week time slot, and if she were a true RULES girls, he would not hear a peep, and he could rotate 1 or 2 more girls in on the weekends… to land his weekend booty call.”
          Well, I’ve never read “The Rules,” but I’m guessing it advocates keeping sex off the table for as long as possible. A player would be wasting his time with “rules girls.” He be better off just setting up some sex-only situations if he wants a sure thing.

        4. Emily, to

          Selena,
          “This is what also baffled me a bit about the post last week. A couple spends the equivalent of every weekend together, plus a mid-week lunch date, after 4 months of dating. And he is labeled an “avoidant”. ?”
          I agree. What more does she want this early on? He’s clearly made a good amount of space for her in his life, although the “magic is gone” comment would give me pause. Is he saying he’s bored? Does he want out?

        5. SparklingEmerald

          Selena said ” This is what also baffled me a bit about the post last week. A couple spends the equivalent of every weekend together, plus a mid-week lunch date, after 4 months of dating. And he is labeled an “avoidant”. ?

          Actually , that was another post, than this one, but if you go back and re-read it they spend Friday and Saturday together, she goes home Saturday night, so not the whole weekend. He also said the magic is gone, and doesn’t say I love you or talk of a future.

          This wouldn’t be such a bad deal if she was OK with that, but clearly she isn’t. However anyone would like to describe either one of them, the bottom line is, they want DIFFERENT things from a relationship and probably aren’t a match. The OP in that post came back with an update that seemed to indicate that things were getting better, but only time will really tell.

        6. SparklingEmerald

          HI again Emily – You said “In terms of the errand running, I guess I’ve just always wanted to get that out of the way on my own. Errands bore the bejesus out of me and I don’t really want to take someone with me. ”

          Actually you’re original query was ” How much is adequate time to spend with someone you are actually seriously dating but not living with? Don’t most people have jobs? Maybe a hobby or two? Maybe exercise a bit? Have errands to run? I’m not being sarcastic but a job alone sucks up so much time.”

          So, OK, I understand the errands. But some of my errands in the past would have been to call a plumber or electrician, arrange time to be home when they come and pay them to do repairs. When my now hubby, then boyfriend offered to do them, I wasn’t going to say no, just to keep some principled space between us. (and of course I always thanked him and provided snacks and a meal while he did repairs on my home)

          And as for hobbies, what is wrong with including your BF/Hubby in your hobbies if it’s something you both enjoy ? There was another letter in here from a guy who was about to break up with his girlfriend because she refused to spend more time with him. She promised to clear her calendar to make more time, then she added MORE outside activities. One of her “activities” was watching soccer games and spending time with friends. Big red flag there. Why the heck couldn’t she invite her supposed boyfriend to the games with her ? Why wasn’t she introducing him to her friends ? Again, to keep some enforced distance between the two ? Was she perhaps a Rules girl ? Me thinks she just “wasn’t that into him”.

          Yes, I had hobbies when me and hubs first started dating. I was in rehearsal for a play when I met my hubby. All the actors got comp tickets, so I gave mine to him. He bought tickets to 2 other performances. He bragged to his friends how proud he was that I was going to be on stage. I guess according the THE RULES, I wasn’t supposed to tell him about the play to maintain mystery, and certainly shouldn’t have let him be in the audience.

          We BOTH like to exercise. He had unlimited passes to his gym, so he brought me in as his guest, and eventually bought me a membership to his other gym. We would sometimes work out together, sometimes I would take a yoga or aerobics class while he worked out, then we would meet in the jacuzzi. What is wrong with exercising together ? Again, to enforce some sort of contrived space ? Because THE RULES says so ?

          I also had already put a deposit down on a trip to Europe. The trip was 6 months out when we first started dating. He actually did want to join me, which I would have loved, but he is on a fixed retirement income and it wasn’t in the budget that year. But he bought me an international phone so we could talk, we also Skyped and I sent him a post card. I suppose according to THE RULES I should have mysteriously disappeared out of the country for 2 weeks, and perhaps sent him a light and breezy postcard about halfway through the trip.

          Nothing wrong with hobbies, errands and friends, but when they are used as an excuse to create artificial distance, as THE RULES suggest, that to me, is a big red flag. Most of the things you mentioned, can sometimes include a boyfriend. If I were dating someone and they compartmentalized their life to keep me out of it, that would be a big red flag to me.

        7. Emily, to

          Sparkling Emerald,
          “So, OK, I understand the errands. But some of my errands in the past would have been to call a plumber or electrician, arrange time to be home when they come and pay them to do repairs. ”
          Sorry, my eyes started to glaze over when I saw the word “plumber.” 🙂 I would just take care of that myself to avoid having to have multiple conversations about plumbing. I’m working on some home projects with my roommate and we spend A LOT of time discussing them.
          ” Why the heck couldn’t she invite her supposed boyfriend to the games with her ? ”
          I think it depends on what the hobby is. Mine is writing, so nobody can do that with me. I block off 15 hours a week because I am working on something.
          “Why wasn’t she introducing him to her friends?
          I was just out last night with a group of women and one of them said she didn’t invite her date/boyfriend ? (i’m not sure what he is) because sometimes women don’t like men being included in a girls’ night out. I don’t care if men are included sometimes (though it does change the dynamic). However, I would start to wonder if a particular guy had to be included all the time. As in: Does he not have bros to hang with?

    3. 11.3
      Donna

      Exactly. I dated an Avoidant for a year, but I was never quite happy. In Evan’s posts these past few weeks I saw his behavior described quite accurately. In the end, I told him that I could see no reason to be in a relationship where I felt so alone most of the time. His response? He said, “Well said” and we left it at that.

  12. 12
    sylvana

    I think dating in the US (and some other countries, but it seems to be mostly a US thing) comes with enough rules and variations to fill a freaking library. I recently stumbled upon a few youtube videos that compared dating in different countries (with people who have dated in different countries while living there, including very different cultures), and one in particular where a woman spoke of the differences between Germany and the US. All were very well done, not saying one way is better than the other, just stating the facts and differences.

    Many Europeans chimed in in the comments and claimed that they approach dating the same way this woman observed it is done in Germany. (I definitely know now where my attitude is coming from, although I never dated while I lived there. Apparently, growing up there was enough of an influence).

    But the most interesting parts were the comments from the Americans. Claiming that they actually thought the German (or European) approach was much more appealing to them. Mostly, because it made more sense and greatly reduces this high stress around dating in the US. The one thing I remembered thinking was – if so many Americans don’t really like this system, how did it ever come to be, and why is this still the norm?

    What I had observed (and what these videos confirmed) is that there is not as much of a gender difference in Germany as well as some other European countries. And this shows in the dating approach as well. Not that much emphasis is placed on masculine vs. feminine, and how each “should” act. People tend to be more 50/50 or 60/40.

    In countries that do seem to put greater emphasis on the masculine/feminine roles, people also don’t pick and choose which parts of it they like, trying to force their partners back and forth between the two. In a more male dominant culture, the woman is expected to be more feminine. But he is also expected to be more masculine in turn. Which evens things back out.

    And that’s where I observed the biggest issue in the US. A lot of American men seem to want a woman who is rather gender neutral (makes her own money, is independent, provides for herself, takes care of herself, etc.). Yet when it comes to dating, all of a sudden they expect women to become “feminine” again, and display the feminine qualities they value. While – sad to say – at the same time not displaying much the balancing masculine traits.

    Let’s take something as simple as paying for the date, for example. (I’ll use Germany to make it easier). In Germany, it is common practice to split the bill – at least in the beginning. That being said, though, the man does NOT expect the woman to be all soft and open, and feminine and receiving, because he’s not giving anything for her to receive at that point. He’s not providing, she’s providing for herself. Therefore, it’s expected that she acts more like a provider, not like a receiver. Not necessarily masculine, but also not very feminine. More gender neutral overall. In turn, women don’t expect as much “chivalry” in turn, for example.

    The more feminine a man wants a woman to be, the more masculine energy he will show. He doesn’t expect her to show feminine energy while being in a 50/50 or 60/40 state himself.

    The same goes for pursuing. No one cares who does the pursuing. It works equally well both ways. But you cannot say “I want to be the pursuer, because I’m a man”, then turn around and go, but I don’t want to be the provider (and, like, pay the bill, for example), because I’m the … hmmm – all of a sudden gender neutral, or a woman? You don’t pick and choose.

    If you date a man of a more male-dominant culture, he also prefers to be the pursuer. But he’d be insulted if the woman offered to pay the bill. Literally insulted. Because with him being a man also come the responsibilities of being one, and therefore certain expectations. As a very dominant woman myself, I actually have to say that I had no problems dating men from more male-dominant cultures (other than the fact that freedom is a beautiful thing…lol). But the gender roles were clearly defined. I knew what was expected of me, but I also knew exactly what he was giving in return. I didn’t have to worry about being in control, because he actually handled it, and handled it well.

    You either ARE more masculine, and want certain traits, or you stick to being more gender neutral, in which case, you have to give up certain things. If you want a woman to admire you, give her something to admire. Don’t expect her to admire you for something she just did herself.

    You also often see this in the complaints of married American women that they had kids, have to go to work, yet still have to do the majority of the household chores themselves. One of women’s’ biggest complaints, actually. There is a certain expectation for a woman to be a woman, but a man as well at the same time. And, even more telling, in the horrible disrespect a lot of men show in regard to housewives and the mothers of their children.

    Oftentimes, it seems that a lot of American men want the housewife career woman, loving mother of your children who looks and acts like a porn star. No wonder both women and men are having such a hard time navigating this climate. At some point, something has to give.

    And then there’s the whole “exclusivity” talk. That actually seems to be mostly an American thing. In Germany (as well as similar European countries) exclusivity when dating is assumed. That’s the norm. You don’t have a talk about it. It’s not up for discussion. Then again, casual sex doesn’t have much of a stigma around it either. If you want to have sex, say so and have sex. But if you’re dating someone (even in the very beginning stages), its is one person at a time only. If you like them, you keep seeing them. If not, you move on to the next. If you’re together long enough (a few weeks to a couple of months or so), you’re automatically boyfriend/girlfriend. You are a couple. And the men do not need a paper bag because, lord forbid, the woman is trying to put a label on the relationship. You don’t discuss being boyfriend/girlfriend. You’ve been hanging out together for three or four weeks, what the heck else do you think you are? It’s considered illogical to actually have to discuss this. If you didn’t like each other, you would have ended things by now.

    Or actually had “the talk”. Which happens ONLY if you do NOT want to be exclusive. Basically, you’re honest about what you want right from the start, rather than leaving the other person in limbo, never knowing where they stand while you try to figure out which one of the multiple people you’re “dating” you might want to have that anxiety inducing “relationship” with. You can always end a relationship if it doesn’t work out.

    Once again, that might have to do with the more open attitude around casual sex. Here, men feel like they’re giving up something that women aren’t (variety in sex partners). There, it’s pretty much understood that women like casual sex just like men do. So this is not something just the man gives up, but rather both partners give up. He cannot hold that “sacrifice” over her head.

    In more male dominant cultures, relationships and marriages aren’t so much considered the ball and chain, but a matter of pride. Having a family and providing for such is a cause for pride. Not missing out on a bunch of hot chicks and life, because he has to work a few extra hours. .

    1. 12.1
      jo

      Sylvana, great points. But it begs the question: How do wives and mothers in Germany (and Europe more broadly) get treated? Is it really that different from in North America? IME all around the world, wives and mothers are not treated that respectfully, and still do most of the housework no matter their outside career. I don’t know that it makes a difference that males and females are more ‘equal’ when dating, when in the marriage or long-term partnership, the woman ends up doing most of the housework despite having a job. You might have seen something different in the household.

    2. 12.2
      Lynx

      Sylvana: “A lot of American men seem to want a woman who is rather gender neutral…Yet when it comes to dating, all of a sudden they expect women to become “feminine” again.”

      Agreed. Those of us who are of a certain age will remember the Enjoli (sp) perfume ad on TV:

      [Cue music]

      I can bring home the bacon…
      Fry it up in a pan…
      And never ever let you forget you’re a man
      ‘Cause I’m a wo-man
      Enjoli

      WTF?

      1. 12.2.1
        Selena

        Ha ha Lynx. I remember that commercial (catchy tune), but not the product.

        Do you remember the one where a woman asks her friend: “With your new job, how do you keep your toilet bowl clean?” Ugh.

        How about years of Mr. Whipple telling women (never men) in the supermarket:
        “Please don’t squeeze the Charmin!”

        And don’t forget the ads for Virginia Slims cigarettes: “You’ve come along way baby.”

      2. 12.2.2
        jo

        Lynx, what an awful ad. I guess women have been so conditioned to think that we should be happy to please men that we don’t stop to ask ourselves: Why? What do we get in return from men? And how about pleasing ourselves?

        If we’re already bringing home the bacon… heck, take more of it for ourselves. Bacon is good.

      3. 12.2.3
        Lynx

        Lol, Selena, I would love to see an ad where one dude asks another, “Hey, bro, with that new gig, must be hard to keep your toilet bowl looking rad.”f

        I don’t think we always fully realize the insidious impact of the messages we receive from media and advertising. I haven’t, at least. I think that stupid Enjoli ad has been playing in a loop somewhere deep in my brain, and I’ve felt perpetually guilty/inadequate for not being able to toggle switch between self-sufficient and flatteringly feminine.

        Rewatched the original Stepford Wives with my daughter last night. Crazy to think our society has been grappling with this issue for decades.

    3. 12.3
      Marika

      Hey, sylvana

      Welcome back!

      From what I recall you don’t actively date? Aren’t currently internet dating? Dating in Australia used to be as you say, one -at-a-time, assumed exclusivity when dating continued for a while etc. UNTIL online dating became so popular. Now, you may have a few dates lined up in a week, talking to several people at once…so you do need to have the ‘talk’ and can’t assume anything really, even if they keep wanting to see you. It may be that in Europe things have changed too.

      1. 12.3.1
        Marika

        I should add that I don’t like it the way it’s become now. Having the ‘talk’ (about sex, because while I don’t mind dating around, once it comes to sex I don’t want us both sleeping around), is so weird to me, I end up stumbling over my words and looking like an idiot. I’ve tried to use the script Evan gave us, but in the moment I often forget it!

        Anyway, it’s good to hear different perspectives on this. As I said in another thread, before people start justifying their dating routines and rules (which are cultural constructs) as ‘natural’, or to do with ‘evolution’, they should look at other cultures. Europe’s been around longer than America!

    4. 12.4
      ScottH

      “A lot of American men seem to want a woman who is rather gender neutral (makes her own money, is independent, provides for herself, takes care of herself, etc.). Yet when it comes to dating, all of a sudden they expect women to become “feminine” again”
      Actually, I think a lot of American women want to be gender neutral but when it comes to dating, they want to be feminine.

      1. 12.4.1
        Lynx

        Actually, just speaking for myself, no. I don’t want to wear self-sufficient Persona A from 8am to 5pm and then transition to sexy Persona B in my off-hours. It’s not easy to be two people in one body. And I don’t think men can really understand, because you’re not asked to be simultaneously independent and deferential.

        1. RustyLH

          My Grandmother was able to do it, effortlessly. When my Grandfather died, she had high profile men literally fighting over her, in her driveway. I kid you not..I saw it as a child, with my own eyes. The one she chose ended up getting a promotion to be the VP of Ryder (Florida).

          Back when being an operator was a hard job, she was in charge of an entire floor of them, at Ohio Bell.

          She was extremely feminine.

          I should note that Asian women I have met in Asia, also seem to carry it off with apparent ease, while at the same time, being modern and empowered.

          I think it’s more of a state of mind. How a woman views men. I remember watching a group of Korean female celebrities who visited a water park. At first, they were being filmed in a very shallow water area, in a secluded part of the park…nobody else there. So what was the primary concern of these women, at that point? “Where are the men…the lifeguards.”

          I can honestly say that the one thing I notice in Asian countries is that the women see value in men, and do not hide that at all. I mean men…not that one guy they think is hot…they see value in men, in general, and they show it in ways I do not see in the West. Just my personal experience.

          This woman gets it.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD5Q_AFWdHY

        2. Lynx

          Rusty: I had to read your comment twice to get it, so maybe that doesn’t make me the brightest bulb in the box.

          But if I understand you correctly, you view it as a compliment when a woman falsely says she needs a man’s help? When it’s obvious she doesn’t need it and is playing to his ego?

          I’m not even writing that sarcastically, I’m sincere. Do men seriously want a woman who fakes being helpless in order to build up his ego?

        3. Emily, to

          RustyLH,
          So what was the primary concern of these women, at that point? “Where are the men…the lifeguards.”
          Lifeguards are often hot. They were looking for the hot men. As women do in any country.

        4. RustyLH

          Emily To,

          No, the girl made it clear her concern

        5. RustyLH

          Emily To,

          No, the girl made it clear her concern was about safety.

          I have been to Asia…I don’t expect you to understand the difference in how Asian women think about men, in general. There just isn’t the general disdain for men there, as there is in the West.

        6. Emily, to

          Rusty LH,
          “There just isn’t the general disdain for men there, as there is in the West.”
          Then go there again, dude. Put up a crowdfunding plea for a ONE-WAY plane ticket, and I will pitch in some money, as I’m sure some of the other female posters on here will as well.

  13. 13
    Marika

    So instead of idealising from afar and telling Western women how wrong they are, why not move to Korea and experience an actual long -term relationship with a Korean woman? Hopefully she’ll make all your dreams come true and you won’t feel the need to keep comparing and pining. Everybody wins!

    1. 13.1
      Clare

      Marika,

      I know you have been on this blog at least as long as I have, and commenters like Rusty follow a pattern that is so predictable that I can only smile and shake my head when I see it.

      They start off disparaging western women, then that segues into a discussion dripping with praise about the way Asian women are (a lengthy discussion). This is followed by an even lengthier and more in-depth discussion of Pick Up Artistry techniques and “The Game” (notice how many times Rusty mentions both in his posts).

      They write long, rambling posts which go off on many tangents and make sense to few people other than themselves. They annoy the other commenters. They eventually descend into misogynistic territory, or at the very least, comments which are contrary to the purpose of this blog, Evan gets fed up and kicks them off.

      Hate to sound like I’m generalising, but I’ve seen the pattern repeat itself numerous times on here. (I think Tron was the latest to be kicked off.)

      Can’t understand for the life of me why people like Rusty want to come on here and drone on and on about “The Game.” It’s like having an outspoken evangelist in a room full of agnostics.

      1. 13.1.1
        Emily, to

        Clare,
        Bingo! You “crushed” it. 🙂

      2. 13.1.2
        Marika

        Yeah, it’s a familiar pattern, that’s true, Clare-Bear.
        It’s just the thought process behind it I find actually quite fascinating.

        ie; do these guys think they present themselves really
        well on here and so we would want to be with them so much, that we’re highly motivated to listen and change to be exactly what they want in a woman?

        Is the Asia thing a threat and we don’t want to lose these guys to the East and should beg them to stay by doing what they want?

        Is it possible to actually believe that?

        Maybe I suppose if you know a guy well, build up trust, see him treat women really well, think he’s cute, ask for advice then he says “well, actually..”. Okay. But this hammer to the head approach from a stranger who presents himself as humourless and controlling, no. It’s about as effective as going door to door telling people which God to believe in.

        1. RustyLH

          Marika,

          This is not a dating service, and I will never meet anyone here…ever…and even if I did, I wouldn’t know they were here. So I don’t post anything with a thought towards convincing anyone to date me…ever. I offer my point of view, that is all.

      3. 13.1.3
        RustyLH

        Clare, you did NOT nail it, because if you had actually read my posts, AND understood them, you would understand that I do NOT like “The Game”, and do not like that it is actually successful for many men. Your post exposes that you don’t actually understand that. I am not a PUA, and want no part of that, because to me, it’s dishonest, and I do wish to spend my life being dishonest.

        You simply don’t understand anything about my posts, because you are seeing it from your perspective, only. Maybe that’s my fault for not explaining things in a way that women can understand, because I am not a woman.

        1. RustyLH

          Should say, Do NOT wish to spend my life being dishonest.

        2. Marika

          “Because I am not a woman”

          This is the crux of it, Rusty. You aren’t a woman. You don’t know what women, including Asian women, are thinking or what they want. Or need. Your first date script made that very obvious.

          You are lecturing a group of people who you don’t understand. Why?

          Your opinion is not the issue – it’s that you keep hammering the same point over and over and putting down the very people this blog is designed for. Bizarre.

        3. Inga

          I’m happily married and I read this forum on long car trips to pass time. Now I just want to skim to read Rusty’s comments! You are a wise and thoughtful man.

        4. Clare

          No, you’re right Rusty, I did not even read your posts in detail.

          Because anyone who places himself in the exalted position of lecturing others, puts himself forward as an expert without any valuable context, or makes sweeping generalizations about how vast sections of the population think, feel and act is not worth all that much of my time, unfortunately.

          Whether you support The Game or not is irrelevant – it’s the fact that you keep droning on about it to people who are talking about something entirely different that is annoying.

        5. RustyLH

          Marika,

          I am not trying to tell you how women think. I am telling you how men think.

          Want to win a war…know your enemy.
          Want to win a game…know your opponent.
          Want to sell a product…know your customer.
          Want to find a mate…know men.

          I don’t claim to speak for all men…but, just as I am doing here, I talk to a lot of men about this stuff, and what I talk about isn’t just what I think…it’s what I have come to learn about the men I have talked to. 20 years in the Navy, and many years in Construction, gave me a large audience of men to speak with. Men who aren’t shy about sharing their opinions on things.

          If I am hammering a point, it’s because the point is relevant.

          I gave advice, repeatedly to a young man I know, who was stubbornly refusing to pay for his date’s meal, and wasn’t getting second dates. He was militant in his stance that if women want equality, then they can take equal responsibility for the check. I kept “hammering the point” to him that most women don’t want that kind of equality. I told him that he can accept that, and change his ways…and maybe find a girl, or he can keep on with what isn’t working. He’s stubborn. He may never change. He has to live with the consequences.

        6. RustyLH

          Clare…the fact that you see me, simply expressing my thoughts here, as lecturing, says nothing about me, and everything about you. You don’t like what is being expressed, so you look for a way to dismiss it. That’s fine. I can only express my thoughts. I can’t make you read it, or actually take time to think about what’s said.

          Funny thing…this is a site to help women who want a good relationship with a man. I just enjoy expressing my thoughts on the matters. ENTJs love to debate. So that’s what I do. If you are here to make men understand…I would say that you are doing it wrong.

          A long time ago, me and my Ex went to a family therapist because her daughter was out of control. After the 2nd or 3rd meeting, the man told us that he could not tell us how to fix her daughter…he could tell us how to fix us…that WE could not change her…we had to change ourselves.

          I remember being a bit taken aback by this, but I kept thinking about what he said. My Ex it seems, did not. I watched, and saw how what she was doing, was actually causing, and feeding into the misbehavior, and had to acknowledge that by allowing her to do this, and following her lead on this, I was exacerbating the situation. So I stopped, and went a different direction…the direction I thought was right, and I learned.

          When we had to move do to a change of duty station, the therapist acknowledged my changes, and how it was helping, and noted that my Ex had not done the same thing. She was still stubbornly sticking to her belief that the problem was the child, and we just needed to get her fixed.

          Case in point…daughter goes to mom and asks for something, and half hour long battle ensues…everyone is now on edge, and there is no peace in the home. It sucked.

          Next day, mom is not home, so daughter comes to me and asks for something. I do not get sucked into a battle of wills.

          I tell her, “You have one chore to do every day, and it is to be done when you get home from school, before you do anything else. So my only question is, is your chore done?

          Her: No, but…

          Me: when your chore is done.

          Her: BUT..

          Me: when your chore is done…

          Rinse and repeat until she got tired of beating her head against the wall.

          A few days later, same thing happens. She asks, and I turn to look at her, and am about to speak..and she quickly says,

          “let me guess…is my chore done?”

          Me: You’re learning.

          Her: stomps off to do her chore.

          In short order, she stopped coming to me and asking, until her chore was done, so the exchange was very short.

          Is your chore done?

          Yes

          Ok, yes you can go to your friends house.

          And not surprisingly, when my Ex was home, the daughter never approached me..she approached her mom, and an inevitable battle ensued. So…as it turns out, the daughter was not going to change…unless the parent changed. For some odd reason, she seemed to go for the drama..the battle of wills. Dr. Phil called this…the sick payoff. And that is exactly what the therapist was trying to get across..the child acts the way they do, because in their mind, they are getting what they are after…it is working for them.

          So point I am making is if don’t like the way men relate to you, you have to change the way you relate to them. Same advice I give men. If it is working for you, keep doing it…but if there is something that is not working…you don’t like the way things are, you can only change you. You want something different, YOU have to change…not the other people. You can’t change them. They won’t change unless you do. They are doing what they are doing because the seem to think it is working for them.

          Evan says that your dating pool consists of those who want to date you, not who you want to date. If you don’t like whose in your dating pool, you have to change…you can’t change your dating pool by trying to get the men you want to date…to change. You have to change.

          Grant me the strength to change the things that I can…to accept the things I cannot, and the wisdom to understand the difference.

        7. Marika

          So you keep saying Rusty that if someone is coming off badly, making mistakes, doing something wrong, they should be open to being told that and changing. So why are you not open to the multiple women giving you consistent feedback on how badly you’re coming across?

          You told us men are more open to taking on feedback, but many of us are givng you feedback, consistent feedback, and you are telling us we’re ‘angry’ or afraid of the truth etc. Instead of looking at yourself.

          I also gave you feedback on your first date script and the incorrect things you said about my country, which you ignored.

          You contradict yourself. Maybe that’s why your male friend, the woman at your church and multiple women on here don’t think you’re the best person to be giving others’ advice.

        8. Clare

          Rusty,

          Thanks, but I’m doing just fine with men for now, though it took me a *long* time to get here. I have brothers, guy friends and a lovely boyfriend – all of whom I love dearly.

          I guess the point *I* was trying to get across – which you seem to have missed entirely – was that there is a reason women on this blog are responding to you with their hackles up and not particularly receptive to what you have to say.

          It’s your tone. Even the way you describe your ex’s daughter – while I’m glad you had success with her – is kind of “Rusty knows best” and patronising.

          Much of the debate on this blog works so well because we *exchange* ideas… we ask questions and we listen to what others have to say. Sometimes we tweak or change our views accordingly.

          We don’t TELL people how large sections of the population are and should be.

          Maybe try this – if you’re as receptive to feedback as you claim.

        9. RustyLH

          Marika, the problem is your perception. When I say, Western women, I am not speaking about you specifically…or any woman, specifically. Why do you say, I am speaking about YOU.

          A European woman once told me, “American men drink to get drunk. I don’t like that.” Paraphrased, but that was the gist of what she said.

          You know, I didn’t get offended. While I occasionally drink, I don’t get drunk…so, I didn’t feel the need to respond in the same so many of you do. I didn’t get my hackles up and say, “What are you talking about? I don’t get drunk ever, and many American men don’t even drink, so you are wrong!”

          I knew what she was saying. The men she grew up around, didn’t get stupid drunk, every time they threw a party. But this was what she saw with so many American men, at parties, or in bars. She was talking about the difference she noticed.

      4. 13.1.4
        Inga

        A lot of you ladies misunderstand Rusty, I think. He’s telling you how a lot of good commitment-minded men feel. You ignore his advice and demonize him unfairly at your own peril. There is A LOT of useful wisdom in his posts. Most of you would benefit from rereading his posts with an open mind …the most common sense on this forum by a good bit. It might not be what you WANT to hear, but that is often characteristic of good advice.

        1. Clare

          If questioning someone’s tactic of lecturing people who have not expressed any openness to his opinion is demonizing someone, then I’m ok with that.

          I struggle to attribute credibility to someone who spends very little time listening to people but a lot of time telling people “how it is.”

          Rusty is not here to understand women – he’s here to give them the benefit of his exalted opinion. That, in and of itself, makes it very unlikely women will listen to him.

        2. Emily, to

          “A lot of you ladies misunderstand Rusty, I think. He’s telling you how a lot of good commitment-minded men feel. You ignore his advice and demonize him unfairly at your own peril.”
          Hi Rusty’s sister. Good to have you on here.

        3. RustyLH

          LOL No.

          So jaded. It’s not a good thing.

    2. 13.2
      jo

      Marika, although I don’t know who your comments are directed to (at least two men wrote questionable things), I completely agree with where you’re going on this. It does no good to tell us Western women to be more like Asian women, because: 1) not all Western women are alike, and 2) not all Asian women are alike! I see men wanting to put us into boxes like this all the time, and it’s neither accurate nor kind.

      In particular, that YouTube video Rusty linked of the Western women putting us all down collectively in favor of Asian women: she doesn’t speak for me. No one should take her as an ‘expert’ of anything, because of her silly statement that we Western women have ‘forgotten to be women.’ What she really means is that we’ve forgotten to be the kind of women men want. That isn’t the same as forgetting to be a woman! She says that it’s because Western women always want to fight for our rights. We want to do that BECAUSE we’re women not being treated fairly in many contexts, so how could we possibly have ‘forgotten to be women’?

      Anyway, this isn’t meant to be snarky, but I don’t think we Western women have ‘forgotten’ how to be a woman that men want. I think we took a good hard look at the whole situation and said that we would rather fight for equality, even if that meant that a subset of men wouldn’t like us – because we decided that having those men like us just doesn’t matter to us.

      1. 13.2.1
        Marika

        Hi jo

        I didn’t even watch the video.

        I’d love to see how Rusty would react if we posted a video of a bunch of hot men with rippled muscles and white -teethed smiles saying how men should worship women, be hot, carry our purse, watch us shop and tell us how great we look in everything, arrange fancy dinners, never look at another women and ravish us all night, every night.

        Then told him – that’s what we want. Be that.
        Would he?

        1. RustyLH

          If a man is not successful at all with women, he would do well to listen to the advice.

          If, for instance, I knew a man was being incredibly rude to women, and this was not working for him, my advice to him would be to change who he is, if he wants to be successful with women.

          I have actually done just that. It’s up to them to take the advice. I’m nobody’s keeper. I can only offer advice, or my perspective.

          Women seem to get angry when told that changing some things about themselves, will help them be more successful with men.

          I don’t get that same response from men. Men seem to be more open to the idea that they have to change things about themselves. Maybe that’s because so many things we have done, carry that same message. From sports, to boot camp, to women, we are told we are not good enough, and have to change…improve…or fail.

        2. jo

          Marika, what you describe in our fantasy video 🙂 – although some men might think it sounds outrageous and entitled – is exactly the sort of thing random men demand of women on the internet. Be this, be that, so that men will be pleased. And they don’t think to ask why we should want to please them so much. What do they offer in return? If they get mad at women who ask that, and ‘threaten’ to go to Asian women instead – well, thoughts and prayers for the Asian women.

        3. Marika

          So then Rusty, you will change your first date script because I told you to? Are you open to feedback on how controlling you come across as? Are you willing to change that because I said so?

          Empowered people question information and ideas and don’t follow directions without question. Random Rusty on the Internet says x. We wonder what’s behind this? Why does he keep saying it? Does he come across as a good, empathetic guy without a range of biases who is offering solid advice with no ulterior motive. No. He isn’t. So why is his advice valuable?

        4. Lynx

          RustyLH:

          Your sweeping generalizations get to be a bit much:
          – Asian women value men more than Western women do
          – Women are averse to changing themselves
          – Men are more open to changing themselves

          There’s just a wee bit more variance among individuals than your philosophy allows.

        5. jo

          Rusty, I will acknowledge that we are only privy to our own gender’s experiences in society. So while you think that men are always being asked to change, I (and probably some other women here) think that women are always being asked to change – usually to a greater extent than men. But TBH, I think in modern society still, it should be men who prove their value more to women, because in marriages, women still do much more of the housework and caring for children. Evan has written about this before, and I’ve read other articles sharing statistics that women do 80% of house-related work on average in the United States. In other nations, it’s far more.

          This being the case, does it not make sense for women to ask what we get from being in a LTR with men – knowing that once we get into a LTR or marriage, this is what will likely happen to us? What makes a man worth it that much for us? I’m not asking this defensively, but realistically. Likewise, I do believe men know that this is a benefit of being with women, so should do more to prove that they are worth it (if a LTR is the goal) – not keep insisting that women need to change to exactly suit their wishes.

        6. RustyLH

          Lynx,

          You and many women here, get offended too easily…when no offense should be taken. Too often, when something said about the group, you get offended because you take it personally. When speaking about a group, you speak about the group’s characteristics, not the individuals in the group, and their personal characteristics.

          Top 25 Coffee Consuming Nations
          Rank Country Coffee Consumption (Kg per Person Per Year)
          1 Finland 12.0
          2 Norway 9.9

          6 Sweden 8.2

          25 United States 4.2

          Now, I could look at these statistics, and reasonably say, Scandinavian women drink a lot more coffee than American women.

          How much sense does it make for a Scandinavian woman who does not drink coffee, to get offended, and declare that I’m wrong…because not all Scandinavian women drink coffee?

          Scandinavian women drink more coffee than American women. True Statement.

          Individually, all Scandinavian women drink more coffee than all individual American women. False, and that is not what is being said.

          Like it or not, overall, Asian women are more feminine in their mannerisms, the way they talk, and the way they think. That does not mean that I cannot find an Asian woman who would be more masculine than one of the more feminine American women I could compare her to. I can, in fact, name one Korean woman who is likely more masculine than the majority of Western woman. But, she’s also a lesbian, and so I suppose her natural state is to be quite masculine. But this does not change the facts about group characteristics.

          I am only stating what is…you can do with it what you like.

          Here, let me help you out. Russian men are more masculine than American men. Is this true? Yes. Does that mean every Russian man is more masculine than every American man? No…not by a long shot. We just have way more men who act very effeminate, or not very masculine compared to many Russian men. Likely due to harsher living conditions in Russia, compared to the U.S.

          As the saying goes…

          Hard times create strong men,
          Strong men create good times,
          Good times create weak men,
          Weak men create hard times.

        7. RustyLH

          Marika, what are you talking about…my first date script?

        8. RustyLH

          Jo

          You think the way you do, because that is what our society has fostered. Women these days, see themselves as victims…of everything. Why?

          Did Europe lose nearly a generation of women in WWI? Did 50K women get killed in Vietnam? No…that was men.

          Do women server longer prison sentences for the same crimes? No, men do.

          Did women have to fight to for the right to vote? Yes…so did men. Little known fact these days is that men had to fight for it also, and only received the right, 2 years before women did.

          Do women commit suicide at a higher rate than men? No, it’s just the opposite.

          Are men or women more likely to be victims of a violent crime? Men are.

          Who is more likely to be killed in the workplace? Men.

          Who is more likely to get the kids in a divorce? Women.

          I can go on with this all day, but the point I am trying to make is that this is simply your perception. I would point you to the video of the Feminist Lesbian who went undercover as a man, and after the experiment, decided that it was much better to be a woman…much easier.

          Women often act as if marriage is a burden, that they can’t be who they really want to be. One of my professors asked the question of men…Single men…how many went out to the club last weekend…OK how about the last month…how many went out every weekend.

          Then asked married men the same thing, except that he had to ask how many had went out to the club one time in the last month.

          The difference was stark. Single guys party, married guys do not. Married guys have responsibilities, and wives.

          I know many men who had to shelve their dreams, when they got married. But unlike many women, most men don’t act like a victim over these things. Men accept that life is about choices, and trade offs, and that we can’t have it all. NOBODY gets to have it all. Both men and women sacrifice something to be married. If you don’t believe that it’s a good trade off, don’t do it.

        9. Lynx

          RustyLH: You did an excellent job with your coffee consumption story by using data to support your argument. The same cannot be said about your attempt to rate nationalities by degree of masculinity/femininity.

          And I’m not offended by your comments. I’m trying to understand how you think, because it’s different from how I think. I’m curious. I don’t read this blog to validate my opinions — I’m pretty familiar with them. I read it to better understand others.

          Take your Kpop celebrity story about the women who asked about lifeguards in a very safe situation. My immediate assumption is that they’re faking their fears to flatter men — that they know they’re perfectly capable of not drowning in 2 feet of water, but are blatantly catering to male ego.

          Your assumption appears to be that they are genuinely fearful and feel only a man will make them feel safe around a wading pool.

          Neither of us knows the truth — that’s something only the women and their publicist know.

        10. RustyLH

          Lynx…this simply something anyone does research on. No university is doing research on this. No corporation is doing research on it.

          I was in the Navy, stationed on the West Coast. I knew hundreds of guys who had been stationed in Asia, who hundreds of guys who had been stationed in Asia. This was not something anyone felt was debatable. Everyone was in agreement.

          I did find this, however.

          “What brings all of our experiences together though, is the feeling of not quite being accepted, or seen for our own unique femininity. Each of the 40 Western women I spoke with all had a realization at some juncture during their time in Japan, that while they were understood to be women, they weren’t quite seen as being feminine.

          From the survey, it was clear that many Western women in Japan first struggled with their own identity as a woman when they arrived here. Japanese images of femininity often conflict with Western women’s views of it, which can lead to a pressure to conform.”

          https://savvytokyo.com/femininity-western-japanese-women-weigh/

          I would personally rewrite the last sentence as, “Japanese images of femininity often conflict with Western women’s REDEFINITION of it, which can lead to a pressure to conform.”

          My point is simply that the natural magnetic attraction between masculine energy and feminine energy has taken eons to evolve to this point. You simply can’t redefine it just because. It’s not going to change anytime soon.

          My only point in bringing this up is not to make anyone feel bad, but to put light on the issue. Not getting attention from masculine men? Maybe this is the reason. That’s all I am saying.

          If you prefer feminine energy men, then you would obviously want to disregard this completely. He’s likely to be attracted to women with masculine energy.

        11. RustyLH

          Also, with regard to the Kpop celebrity…no, she was definitely concerned. Not freaking out…it was just important to her to notice that she didn’t see the men. He words were in fact, “Where are the Uncles?” Koreans use different words for different groups, mostly defined be gender, and relative age.

          The Youngest member in a group of friends, or a Kpop group, is the “Maknae”

          A friend/group member who is younger than you is a Dongsaeng

          A girl who is older?
          If you are a boy, she is called Noona.
          If you are a girl, she is called Unnie.
          The translation for both is Older Sister

          A boy who is older?
          If you are a boy, he is called Hyung.
          If you are a girl, he is called Oppa.
          The translation for both is Older Brother.

          The translations explained to me by Koreans.

          The word this Kpop star used was, a word that translates to uncle…what they call somebody who is too old to be an older brother, but not quite your dads age.

          This was as they arrived to the park, and and were in an area that was evidently set aside for them to film in. She looked around, and asked where the uncles were.

          Was this fake? No. She had just arrived at a waterpark. In the previous episode, she was one of two group members not to complete the challenge, which was to bungee jump. It was discussed…already known by the devoted fans…that she has two phobias. Fear of heights, and fear of water. The bungee jump was over water, making it even harder for her. Being the leader of the group, she was very embarrassed that she failed, and so was the other girl.

      2. 13.2.2
        Marika

        That script where you asked out a woman.

        Why is that the only bit you responded to? Why aren’t you open to feedback like you think we should all be?

        1. RustyLH

          Still don’t understand what you mean by first date script. Script where I asked out a woman? What are you referring to? Are you implying I use a script…something planned out in advance, to ask out a woman?

        2. Marika

          I’m not implying anything, Rusty. If the word script bothers you, you wrote out *words*, an example of an exchange between you and a woman asking her out on a date. As a woman I gave you feedback on that. Apparently you as a man are very open to feedback. So you’ll change your words using my feedback?

          With the marches you referred to earlier, do you honestly believe the marches involved every single western woman? If so, you’re already wrong. I have never marched, never seen myself as a victim. If you think I’m in the minority, and most western women throughout the world (or US?), either marched or generally see themselves as victims, please provide evidence to support that assertion.

          If these are all merely your opinions, with no evidence at all to support them, that’s fine. You’re entitled to your opinion. Equallt, we’re entitled to challenge opinions which demonize us – you are writing negative and some incorrect things about Evan’s core audience. And calling us angry for merely questioning them/asking for proof.

        3. RustyLH

          This is where you keep going wrong, Marika. I have told you that when I use group terminology, I am talking about the group, not individuals. This is normal.

          Nowhere have I ever implied that every single women is this, or that, or anything else.

          I speak about group traits, behaviors, actions, etc… And you keep saying. “But not all women….!!!” I agree, and never said otherwise. I am well aware that in any single group, there are the majority that give it it’s stereotypical identity, and those who do not conform to that stereotype.

      3. 13.2.3
        Yet Another Guy

        @jo

        “What she really means is that we’ve forgotten to be the kind of women men want. That isn’t the same as forgetting to be a woman! ”

        Isn’t the outcome the same? More men than not desire a woman who leads with feminine energy. Leading with masculine energy is going to result in a straight woman being very unhappy relationship-wise, especially if she desires a masculine man.

  14. 14
    Marika

    Jo

    Evan used to be a coach for both genders. He’s said before that he now only specialises in coaching women because they are most likely to seek and accept his advice.

    Inga

    Everyone has something useful to say. Not everyone:
    – generalizes about the opposite sex in two entire continents
    – insults the people this blog is designed for
    – tries to alter others with no thought to first changing themselves
    – writes long-winded comments about heavy topics like religion which are completely irrelevant to the blog
    – writes as an expert on a society on the other side of the world

    The nuggets of useful wisdom in his posts are already contained in Evan’s advice. The rest is self-serving, repetitive and in some cases, fictional.

    1. 14.1
      RustyLH

      Nope, but think what you want, if it keeps you warm at night.

      You should really step back and read what you wrote. I never try to be mean spirited, but see the mean spirited, and baseless accusations in the replies from certain people.

      It’s not a good look.

      1. 14.1.1
        Marika

        I’ve in no way been mean spirited, Rusty. I’m not even angry. I’ve calmly asked of you two things:

        – to back up your broad general claims about women, and in particular Western women, with actual research

        – to practice what you preach, ie to change yourself first, instead of asking an entire gender to change for you

        You’ve been asked a number of questions in this thread, a thread you initiated, and deflected all of them. Which is unfortunately one of the reasons your advice lacks credibility.

        1. RustyLH

          “I’ve in no way been mean spirited, Rusty. I’m not even angry. I’ve calmly asked of you two things:”
          You and others have made statements about me personally. I have not made ANY statements about any single person on this site. Not one.

          – to back up your broad general claims about women, and in particular Western women, with actual research

          I don’t think this is an issue that you are going to find any University research studies on. I mean are you serious?

          I do, however, know literally hundreds of men who were stationed in Asia. I have been to Asia. There is a general agreement among these men, on this issue.

          I also noted the Canadian woman who noted this in her video…she did not feel as feminine, in Asia, once exposed to Korean women.

          However, I did find this.
          “What brings all of our experiences together though, is the feeling of not quite being accepted, or seen for our own unique femininity. Each of the 40 Western women I spoke with all had a realization at some juncture during their time in Japan, that while they were understood to be women, they weren’t quite seen as being feminine.”

          https://savvytokyo.com/femininity-western-japanese-women-weigh/

          Feminine energy is not fluid. It cannot be redefined, just because you want it to. What makes a masculine man attracted to a woman has evolved for as long as mankind has been evolving. It took that long for us to get where we are. You aren’t going to change that in a few years.

          – to practice what you preach, ie to change yourself first, instead of asking an entire gender to change for you

          First, I am telling you what to do. I am simply here for the debate. I stumbled across this site a long time ago…lurked for a short period, and then started debating. Look up the traits of an ENTJ. We thrive on debates. I am not here to change either myself, or anybody else. I am simply here to debate facts. It’s simply something I enjoy doing.

          I’m also not on the market, so there is no need for me to make any changes to attract a woman.

          If you think I am saying what I say, to be mean spirited, I am not. I am simply pointing out what is, as I see it, but I do speak from a fair amount of experience.

          The only problem I see, is that I can say something like, “Mankind does X” and somebody will be along shortly to say, “You are wrong…I don’t do X.”

          We had a saying in the military, when speaking about group characteristics, and actions. “If the hat fits, wear it. If it doesn’t, we aren’t talking about you.”

      2. 14.1.2
        Marika

        Rusty

        “I am well aware that in any single group, there are the majority that give it it’s stereotypical identity”

        I don’t think you read my comment properly, to repeat, said this:

        ‘If you think I’m in the minority, and most western women throughout the world (or US?), either marched or generally see themselves as victims, please provide evidence to support that assertion’.

        But, as you said earlier, there is no evidence. So we’re back to where we started.

        Not reading things properly and continuing to repeat your views in the hopes they will be accepted as true, and no one will challenge you, is where you keep going wrong, Rusty.

  15. 15
    Marika

    “Women these days, see themselves as victims…of everything”

    Which women, Rusty? Some women, all women? Western women? Not me. So it’s definitely not the last two. Where’s the research which backs your claims?

    Otherwise, this just YOUR perception.

    Everything you tell other people applies equally to you.

    1. 15.1
      jo

      Marika, I think that when a man makes a complaint like this (‘women see themselves as victims of everything’), he is unwilling to accept that women are speaking out against gender inequality in society – which is not the same thing as claiming victimhood. Maybe some men think that if they shame women this way, women will back off from the fight for equality.

      Wishful thinking. All that happens is that we don’t fall for gaslighting, and we lose respect for men who try to shush us, so their opinions of us don’t matter.

      It’s like that other comment made to you (Marika) about how what you wrote was ‘not a good look.’ Again, an ad hominem shaming technique. I think what some older men don’t get is that, while there used to be a time that women really cared about men’s opinion of us because our livelihoods depended on it, that is no longer the case today. So we don’t fall for poorly thought-out insults and false ‘facts’. We demand, at the very least, reason. Better yet, reason paired with humility.

      1. 15.1.1
        Marika

        The thing is Jo, I’m not actually fighting for anything. I work in a female dominated profession and I’m fine with that. I’m not particularly ambitious. I don’t want to work in STEM, be a CEO or prime minister. I like it when men step back at the elevator. Other niceties like that. I don’t want to lose that. I cringe when princesses write about how middle aged men should pay for everything in dating, with no thought to their other financial responsibilities. I know that creates more angst between the sexes.

        I do feel for anyone fighting for their rights, of course, but that’s not a gender thing. We talk about who had the vote when. Women were at least 40-50 odd years behind men, depending on the state, in Australia. But you know who was 40ish years behind that? The indigenous people. They are suffering in every life metric. That bothers me more than gender pay equality.

        What I do struggle very much with, is people who lack humility (as you mentioned) and try to bully others into accepting their opinions, sometimes doing so by repeating something over and over in the hope that it will be seen as a fact. I used to protect my sister from childhood bullies and now I feel I have to protect this blog from bullies with very negative views of western women.

        Inga thinks many marriage minded men think like Rusty. That’s scary, until I remember that Evan, as well as others like Jeremy, Karl, Mike (there are others, but these guys stand out), who are either married or want to be, who don’t put down women or make broad sweeping negative generalizations, or browbeat us with their opinions, or make up facts, or deflect comments or questions put to them. And do show humility. Most men on dates show empathy too. Phew!

    2. 15.2
      RustyLH

      I seem to have missed the marches where men were walking around with pink penises on their head.

      How many times do we need to understand that group terms refer to the group, not each individual person in that group…there are always exceptions. Exceptions don’t define the group’s characteristics.

  16. 16
    Marika

    Rusty you said:

    “you don’t like the way things are, you can only change you. You want something different, YOU have to change…not the other people”

    Absolutely agree with this. So it would make sense if you prefer Asian women, to move to Asia. Instead of fruitlessly trying to change Western women.

    Change you, Rusty. Don’t be a hypocrite.

  17. 17
    jo

    Rusty, your reply to me did not really address my points, that women contribute more in marriages, and that this is incontrovertible (see Evan’s past posts as well as statistics on housework, even among working women). And that’s in the USA; it’s even worse in other nations worldwide. Your stats about war casualties has nothing to do with marriage; men weren’t more likely to go to war because they were married – if anything, the opposite.

    You may also be misrepresenting me. I don’t see myself as a victim, and did not in fact feel offended by you nor express that in any of my comments.

    Finally, I question your statement that men only earned the right to vote 2 years before women. I’ll assume you’re American. Women only earned the right to vote in 1920 (19th amendment). White men have had that right since 1789 (Constitution). Black men, since 1870 (15th amendment). I can’t imagine what you mean by that voting statement. If you wish to clarify, please do.

    1. 17.1
      Marika

      Clare-Bear

      Like you, I don’t have an issue with trusting men and have so much respect for my male relatives and friends. I think (hope) the way I speak about my brother and mateship amongst men I see in my country on here demonstrates that.

      If anything, I give men too much the benefit of the doubt in dating. So it’s a shame when an assumption is made that all women’s (or certainly Western women’s) problems in dating come down to being untrusting of men or not feminine enough. I *wish* all you had to do was be feminine and trust men to find a wonderful partner. There’s so much more to it. For me, the main thing is challenging the attachment stuff. It’s a lifelong battle, really.

      I have so much respect for Evan and the other men on here who make their points and give their perspective in empathetic, non-judgemental, non-hypocritical, non-sweeping generalizationy.. ways. That to me is the very best of masculinity. Oh and you can disagree with them – and if you make a well reasoned point, they’ll take it on board. That’s what a good man looks like.

      Men who don’t do that remind me of the worst in masculinity (equally the female princesses on here remind me of the worst in the feminine). It’s a shame. They probably have good points, but their attitude wipes that out as it reminds you of all the things in that gender you wish didn’t exist. I can’t say this directly to people like that. But I always feel safe expressing my opinion to you.

      1. 17.1.1
        Clare

        Marinky dink,

        Thank you, I feel honoured!

        I completely agree with you. What irks me most about the commenters like Rusty is the complete lack of nuance or fluidity in their opinions. They feel they have stumbled on some kind of magic pill of truth, and this makes them smug.

        What also annoys me is that, like you, and like I said earlier – I have a great love for the male gender. I have met so many men along the way who have enriched my life in more ways than I can count, and the men I have around me, to me, embody some of the best male qualities. To me this is all the more remarkable because my own father let me down in some very significant ways and is no longer a part of my life, and I consciously fought against any tendency to harden myself towards men because of his actions.

        I have gone out of my way to look for qualities in men that would make me feel good about them. I would go so far as to say that I only surround myself with men I can admire. These men make me feel safe and comfortable, and I, in turn, can respect and accept them as well. These are men who have an expanded idea of what a woman is and looks like and are much more secure in themselves. I could never imagine spending long periods of time around a man who went on about women are this, women are that, women should be this, they shouldn’t be that. The men I hang around with see women as human beings, with important differences and unique needs – the same way I see men – but not as a “one size fits all.”

        Years ago, I briefly dated a man who freely said the kind of thing Rusty likes to spout on this blog. He was also enamoured with Asian women. I remember he took me to a party once as his date and spent the entire night ignoring me and a good part of it chatting to an ex of his. Then he drove me home and broke up with me. As part of his break up speech, he felt it appropriate to tell me that I don’t have that “certain something” that men need to become obsessed with a woman, that this ex-girlfriend of his had it (she was also completely crazy, but that’s by the by), and that maybe I could learn from her. I could only stare at him open-mouthed and get out of the car.

        Rusty’s comments remind me of that.

        So yes, there’s a lot more to it than Rusty’s posts and the comments of this immature guy that I dated allow. Much more to it. Don’t sell yourself short. Yes, the attachment stuff matters (and I can see it is something you battle with), but it can be healed and moderated to the point that it doesn’t cause so many issues.

        I think, for me, the beginning of the feeling of liberation in this whole dating, male-female thing came about when I realised that other people do not always have all the answers (especially not the ones who claim to) and that other people do not always get it right. Very far from it. This gave me the courage and confidence to make my own path and follow my own wisdom (augmented by things I learn along the way). There is no “one truth” out there. As long as what you are doing is working for you, keep doing it. If you need to tweak things here and there, then do, but step out in confidence. The Rustys of this world certainly do not speak for all men, and I personally think all people like him do is sow the seeds of self-doubt. And I have no time for that kind of thing.

        1. Marika

          Good points, all Clinky Dink!

          I had a date on Sunday night and a few things happened which I’ve filed in the back of my mind which I’d usually let go or give the benefit of the doubt about. I am learning that there’s a pattern with some of the guys like your ‘don’t have that certain something’ boyfriend. Which you only realize in hindsight. My most recent ex and my ex husband, for instance, both used to say and do similar things. Even though they couldn’t be more different in personality, job, family background. But the avoidant/controlling/seeds of doubt types follow similar patterns in relationships. I think.

          Have you found that?

          The Sunday night guy, if he asks, I will see once more. As I’ve said before that a first date is one tiny snapshot of a person. None of these things are a big deal individually, but together they could be. No. 1 he wouldn’t give me his number, so the date and pre-date conversation were all arranged via the app. Turns about he was worried about ‘stalkers’. Which brings me to the second problem, he seems to think there are a lot of crazies out there. He asked about my experiences on the app which I *hate*. Maybe that’s no red flag, but it’s a personal thing – how are we meant to bond by talking about our dates with others? He also talked about equality a lot. He seemed very pro-equality, but it was still weird on a first date! Things like that. I don’t want to be nexting everyone left, right and centre, but it’s probably good in the early stages to figure out if there’s likely to be weirdness later on. Before I’m all attached 🙂

          I’m so sorry about your Dad, that must’ve been a really difficult childhood 🙁 x
          You really found the attachment stuff easy (ish) to overcome?

        2. Clare

          Marix,

          “But the avoidant/controlling/seeds of doubt types follow similar patterns in relationships. I think.

          Have you found that?”

          Yes, I’ve found that. For me, the clue is in the fact that you feel you need to “prove” yourself because they put all their focus externally and spend very little time examining or modifying themselves.

          “No. 1 he wouldn’t give me his number, so the date and pre-date conversation were all arranged via the app. Turns about he was worried about ‘stalkers’. Which brings me to the second problem, he seems to think there are a lot of crazies out there.”

          It’s a pet peeve of mine when anyone (man or woman) is fixated on the crazies out there. Yes, stalkers exist. Yes, mentally and emotionally unstable people exist, and you *will* run into a couple of them if you date online for long enough. But they’re still a small percentage of the population and I personally find it unattractive when someone treats me as though I may be one of them when I am behaving in a perfectly normal way.

          I’d say you could feel free to give this guy another date. But trust your gut instinct. It can often pick up when a person has walls up before our rational mind can.

          “I’m so sorry about your Dad, that must’ve been a really difficult childhood x”

          Thank you. It was. It wasn’t just my dad, sadly enough. Both my parents are very difficult people. My growing up years were a war zone in many ways. You see those memes on Facebook from people who idealise childhood and want to go back to it, but I’ve never been so relieved as the day I moved out when I was 21.

          “You really found the attachment stuff easy (ish) to overcome?”

          Good heavens, no! It is much easier now (I’m 36), but that’s because I spent years and years processing my significant emotional baggage from childhood and learning about myself and what triggers me to be anxious. One of the things I’m proud of is that I have managed to get a really good handle on my attachment issues, but that has taken a lot of effort and time. I’ve learned to be really patient with myself and others. (It’s one of the reasons I believe in giving space.) This stuff doesn’t resolve overnight, but it becomes much less and much easier over time.

    2. 17.2
      jo

      Rethinking this debate: Rusty, your comment about men only getting the right to vote 2 years before women, and presenting that as fact, really troubles me. It makes me think you are not discussing in good faith here, when I’d been willing to give you the benefit of the doubt before. Even people living outside the USA know that women had to fight for the right to vote in the USA for decades, all the while that men (especially white men) were able to vote. What you meant was not 2 years, but 231 years. I can hardly believe you made such a mistake and tried to get us to believe it. Now don’t come back and say ‘oh, it was 1920 for women in the USA but 1918 for black men in Abyssinia’ or something silly like that, because that would be comparing apples to oranges.

      Also, don’t present anecdote as fact. One story of a lesbian going undercover is just that: one story. I can easily point you to stories of transgender men saying that they found life much easier as men. Again, all anecdotes. Not facts.

      So I don’t really want to engage with you anymore. I don’t trust the validity of your arguments and the overconfidence with which you present them.

      1. 17.2.1
        jo

        Correction: 131 years. But that doesn’t change the point of the comment.

      2. 17.2.2
        RustyLH

        Give it a rest, Jo. Yes, I had looked this fact up, and added U.S. into the search, and yet the top result I received was actually talking about British voting, evidently.

        But you are right, a detail doesn’t change the point. The point I was getting at is that it is ridiculous to constantly view yourselves as victims, as many women do. I know many men who have walked away from women who see the world basically as, women = victims…men = privileged. Most men want nothing to do with women who see the world this way.

        Both men and women have had it bad. Everyone has their cross to bear.

        If your husband doesn’t do his share…do something about it. Divorce him if necessary. Just stop whining about it.

        I had a Commanding Officer that told us about how he and his wife had an agreement for the Christmas Tree. One puts it up the day after Thanksgiving, and the other takes it down, on New Years Day. That year, she kept putting it off, and putting it off, and he casually asked her twice, if she was going to get to it that day, and she said she would, but did not.

        So after a couple of weeks, he just took it down. AND…didn’t say anything about it to her. He said, the point was this…obviously it was more important to him that the tree get taken down. While he had the “right” to make an issue about having had to take it down, he said that his marriage was more important than keeping score. It was important to him, not to her…so he just went ahead and took it down.

        Division of labor in the home is something each couple has to work out, and if you can’t, then you probably shouldn’t get married.

        But on the larger scale, what does crying about it do? Nothing. You think men talk about this when they are together? I assure you they don’t. Men don’t get involved in each other’s lives like that. Women might discuss these things, but men don’t…and WON’T. Are you trying to raise awareness among men? I assure you they aren’t listening, and don’t care about what is going on in other people’s homes. They only care about what goes on in their own home.

        I’ve had a lot of men ask me about many things..not one time have any of them ever brought up a discussion about division of labor in the home.

        But, if it just makes you feel better to complain about it, then please keep doing so.

        1. jo

          You missed the point in all your diatribe, Rusty. Since you posted false facts and acted so confident in their accuracy, no one can trust you anymore to argue in good faith.

        2. Clare

          Rusty,

          “The point I was getting at is that it is ridiculous to constantly view yourselves as victims, as many women do. I know many men who have walked away from women who see the world basically as, women = victims…men = privileged.”

          This is lovely stuff. Super valuable for the women on this blog – none of whom see themselves as victims.

          Why not take your “don’t cry about it” attitude to people of colour? I’m sure it will be a big hit. People love someone who makes absolutely no effort to empathise or understand their experience but instead tells them what their lives are like and what they should do.

    3. 17.3
      Yet Another Guy

      @jo

      “White men have had that right since 1789 (Constitution).”

      That assertion is incorrect. Only white men who were property owners had the right to vote at first. The U.S. Constitution granted the states the power to create their own election laws, many of which enacted laws that prevented anyone who was not a property owner and/or taxpayer from voting. These laws persisted until the mid-nineteenth century (Google “universal white male suffrage”).

  18. 18
    Marika

    Rusty:

    “I don’t think this is an issue that you are going to find any University research studies on. I mean are you serious?”

    I’m serious that people should back up their claims.

    Evan’s clientele is mostly comprised of western women. So choosing here to air your negative, unsubstantiated views on western women is a really odd choice. Other people who have continually done that, and created a negative atmosphere on posts, eventually get asked to leave. Which is reasonable given who Evan’s advice is designed for.

    You may not have personally attacked anyone, but by attacking women in general you are negating the whole point of this site. You created a negative thread and you’re surprised that people are rejecting and questioning your points? This is the atmosphere you created with these views of yours.

    1. 18.1
      RustyLH

      I’ve provided evidence. You’ve simply chosen to ignore it. Doesn’t really matter to me. Ignore it if you wish.

      Men who’ve been stationed in Asia all agree, Asian women more feminine.
      Canadian English teacher living in in Korea, in her own words, says she never felt unfeminine until moving there.
      A survey of 40 Western women who live in Asia…all agree that they are not seen as feminine, there.

      The lack of a university study to point to, does not mean it’s not true. You are smart enough to understand that, right?

      1. 18.1.1
        Clare

        Oh yay, Rusty. There’s nothing the women on this blog respond to better than being condescended to by a man who shares anecdotal evidence as if it’s gospel!

      2. 18.1.2
        Marika

        Rusty

        Men you know of stationed in Asia and 40 women aren’t large, random, representative samples, and therefore prove absolutely nothing.

        You are smart enough to understand that, right?

        You said you like to debate. But you get things wrong, tell people to give it a rest if they point out that your facts are wrong, and when you’re asked to back up your points you use tiny samples or anecdotal evidence. These are not good debate techniques. You can keep going, but every time you reply your credibility drops further and further. No one’s really clear on what you’re trying to achieve here (beyond insulting Evan’s client base)

        1. jo

          Marika and Clare 🙂 You nailed it. Clare, I really felt for you in that story you described about the goober who took you to that party and then returned to his ex. Seems we’ve all had someone like that in our past, and it just meant that they weren’t the right one, and we dodged bullets.

          Not that it matters now, but turns out Rusty was wrong about voting rights in Britain too. Women didn’t get the right to vote till 1918. Men had that right ever since Britain was established in 1707 (and before that as separate nations). 1918-1707=2… Alternative math?

        2. Clare

          Jo,

          “I really felt for you in that story you described about the goober who took you to that party and then returned to his ex. Seems we’ve all had someone like that in our past, and it just meant that they weren’t the right one, and we dodged bullets.”

          It really affected me at the time, because I was naive and vulnerable enough to think that maybe there was only one “right” way to be a woman whom men would fall for and that I was doing it all wrong. This fed into all my fears and insecurities and sense of inadequacy.

          I only realised later that, when someone makes you feel this way, it’s time to head for the hills. Any man who declines to take responsibility for his own actions and instead has his focus entirely outward on how much the woman is keeping him entertained/transfixed/obsessed is not someone remotely on my maturity level, I’m sorry to say.

    2. 18.2
      Lynx

      Since we’re devolving to a place of pure opinion — as it is impossible to objectively quantify and rank femininity or masculinity by nationality — then it’s open season to fling out whatever random thoughts cross our addled minds.

      Here’s why I think a certain subset of the US male population have an Asian girl fetish: they get to be total schlubs and still feel all he-man.

      I met a guy like that once, so of course I can extrapolate that one encounter and apply it to a broad swath of our great nation. He was a morbidly obese Las Vegas cab (yes, cab) driver who spent the entire 20-minute ride raving nonstop about his tiny Asian bikini model wife. My 17-year old daughter was with me, and she could not get out of the car fast enough. She’s permanently scarred and will now only patronize uber or lyft.

      Because all cab drivers are creepy perverts.

      1. 18.2.1
        Marika

        Uber has definitely raised the bar on car transport services! I actually feel very, very sorry for cab drivers (those perverts!! – kidding). Although, maybe in 10, 20 years Uber drivers will become complacent and the niceness and cleanliness will drop off. Then it will be time for us to swoop in, me with Maruk-er and you with Lynfx!! 😉 Watch this space!

        I love coffee and like you I was very interested in the research on the highest coffee consumers around the world.

        I would have sworn up and down Australia would be in the top 25 countries. We LOVE coffee. We take our coffee very seriously and like scoffing at other country’s coffee standards and thinking ours is *definitely* better. We think baristas are sexy – honestly, they are up there with firemen. Everyone walks around with coffee cups. We have large populations of people from coffee producing and coffee loving nations. There’s a cafe on every corner. I also asked my colleagues and they all thought we would be in the top 25, some thought most likely the top 10 (per capita). Then I checked. We barely scraped into the top 50.

        You can think something. You can be convinced of something. Everyone around you can think the same. But you can still be wrong…..

        I wish Karmic Equation was still around. She was an actual Asian person (well, American Asian) who could weigh in on this with some credibility. She, interestingly enough, had the most masculine thought processes ever. She described herself as a chick who thought like a man. She (understandably) found it ridiculous when men wanted to be with her just because she was of Asian descent and therefore fed into their stereotypes. Apparently men would contact her online and speak of ‘yellow fever’. I think they thought that was a compliment.

        So these are my thoughts on the ‘value’ of anecdotal evidence.

      2. 18.2.2
        Emily, to

        Lynx,
        “as it is impossible to objectively quantify and rank femininity or masculinity by nationality — then it’s open season to fling out whatever random thoughts cross our addled minds.”
        Since certain posters have been making comments about the femininity of other nationalities, why don’t we talk about how much more masculine Italian men are than American men? None of this leading the horse to the well! They just come and get it! 🙂

        1. Sandra

          American men are such wimps and comparison.

        2. MilkyMae

          Italy has a mammoni problem just like America. I don’t see how the Italian stallion reputation holds up when they live with their parents.

        3. Emily, to

          Milky Mae,
          “I don’t see how the Italian stallion reputation holds up when they live with their parents.”
          I was kidding. Fetishizing Italian men the same way Rusty was fetishizing Asian women.

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