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Notice how silent it gets when people finally realize that nobody’s good enough for a second date. I can understand why no one would want to lower his/her standards, of course, but what does it say about you if you can’t find anybody suitable to date? And what if everyone else in the world had such similarly high standards that YOU could never make the cut?
Evan, just want to say again: I love your new hair. 🙂
There’s a statistical problem with the way you did your calculations, and it all goes back to those good ol’ Venn Diagrams of yesteryear. You learned about those, right? First, you asked these women what X% of men make enough money to satisfy them. Then you asked them what Y% of men are sufficiently intelligent for them. You implied that therefore, you multiply X% and Y% to find out how many men are suitable, and that the product is supposed to be some very small fraction.
The mathematical problem with that is that there is such a strong overlap between being financially well-off and being intelligent. So it’s not just a straightforward multiplication problem; it’s more like this: If I think 60% of men can satisfy me financially, and I think 50% of men I meet are sufficiently intelligent for me (and this is really right for me!), then I am actually expecting that 45% of men will have BOTH these criteria, because of the heavy overlap.
Of course, I also want a guy to be nice… but I think most guys are nice, so that doesn’t eliminate many people at all: at most, it would go down to 43%.
Then again, I’m already married, so this is a moot point. 😀 Just wanted to point out the statistical issue. Great video.
Nice analogy there, and true enough. I think you really opened up a lot of those people’s eyes.
Thanks for posting this video, Evan. As I mentioned in some thread (I think it was the no sex before marriage one), I actually found this activity really helpful. For some people I think they do need to do this activity when just thinking about whom they’re willing to date. But I would really recommend this for people who are thinking about making a commitment to someone (be it exclusivity or something even more serious). I think that’s the part where a lot of people trip up; the person is good enough to date for a bit, but not necessarily to take it beyond anything casual. Perhaps when looked at with a statistics perspective, people might give a relationship more of a shot and some additional time to see how it will develop.
Given that the crowd seemed to be made up of women over 40, I wonder if the ” no one’s good enough for me” mentality becomes more prevalent with age.
I can’t watch the video right now, because I have no sound on my computer, but I am going to respond to the “what does it say about you if you can’t find anybody suitable to date? And what if everyone else in the world had such similarly high standards that YOU could never make the cut?”
See, this is exactly why I figure it’s impossible for me to find someone. Not because my standards are so high, but if you take two people with any kind of standards it seems there will always be at least one person who is not satisfied. I’m not perfect. I don’t want to be with someone who is. But I do have standards, which have a lot more to do with particularities than how much money a guy makes or even how attractive he is when compared to the population in general. Occasionally I meet a man I deem ‘worthy’ of dating, but then he won’t deem me worthy of him. All of this after doing my best to be my best and not having pie in the sky expectations. Talk about disappointments.
All I’m saying is that I am not altering/lowering my standards when they aren’t too unrealistic in the first place. I wouldn’t expect a man to have to do the same for me. I can’t help it if who I am isn’t (insert adjective here) enough for a guy’s liking. Nor can I help it if the men who do appreciate my personality tend to not be what I’m looking for. I guess that’s why I continue to be single and not dating at all. Until I figure out how to change any of that without the use of copious amounts of alcohol or hallucinogens I suppose I’ll have to stay that way!
I’m really enjoying these clips Evan. Your points (and humor) come across very well this way.:)
@Marc #4,
I don’t think it’s that “the no one’s good enough for me ” mentality becomes more prevalent over 40. I could guess though, that women over 40 might cast more of a practical eye toward things like income and intelligence than the 20 something versions of themselves who mainly wanted someone “hot”.
The “Cinderella complex” dies hard anyway and online dating seems to present a sense of *false choice*. That is the fantasy of ordering up whatever you think you want in a mate and have it delivered. If that’s true, why not order one with x amount of income, intelligence, good looks, whatever? Alas the catch that isn’t in the fine print – that person may not want you.
I watched the video and I think you may have a future in stand up comedy, that is, if your subject matter wasn’t so tragic. It’s all so depressing, this dating past 35. No wonder when my ex-boyfriend dumped me I hated him specifically for making me single again! I’m turning 37 in a few weeks. Should I just kill myself now and get it over with?
I’m down on online dating right now just because of some of these reasons. It just seems to me that online dating is full of enigma’s. When you meet a person in real life, you see that person, get a chance to talk to them, see then act and interact, see their demeanor and mannerisms, voice tone, etc. Then you date them lets say. But lets also say that there is something funny about their nose. It never bothered you before because you were too busy really getting to know them and really liking them by now, and besides, there is so much more that is really great about that person, and after all, they can’t help the way their nose is…so it’s really a non issue. Well, with online dating, that person would be deselected because of that one, very subjective trait before the relationship even got a chance to get off the ground. We deselect for things at a whim that are out of our criteria, even though it really is a rather arbitrary list in the first place. I think it looses some of it’s naturalness. The next thing is choices. We seem to be lost in options, when in fact, if we are not good dating material ourselves, no one else will be either, to us at least, so a lot of people are simply not options to others because maybe they don’t come across well or something like that. We think we have all kinds of options when we have 5, 10, 20 people we are in various stages of communication with, but in the end none of them seem to pan out. Been there too many times to count. If you meet a person online, communicate via email, then phone, then meet and go out and have a great date, then say one wrong thing, one wrong email, one wrong tonal inflection, a little too touchey feeley and you’re done. Why? Because people in their minds real quickly go to themselves, “I don’t have to put up with that, I’ve got options damnit”! And they simply don’t have anything invested at that point so why not move on…greener pastures and all that. So they go look somewhere else and that doesn’t work out either. We’re all always looking for something better. Online dating breeds that.Ii will say though that I think rule #1 of any kind of dating should be this…no weirdness…and if you don’t know if you’re weird…you probably are! Ask someone who will give you an honest answer. Way too many unhealthy people out there.
Just my 2 cents.
Helen said: (#1)
“The mathematical problem with that is that there is such a strong overlap between being financially well-off and being intelligent.”
That’s essentially correct (though I personally believe the overlap is a little less than you estimate). But the same principle can work against someone.
For example, there is one regular on this blog who believes in waiting until marriage for sex. She has very rational, well thought-out reasons for wanting that. However, she is non-religious, so she doesn’t want to date anyone who is particularly religious.
Most people who abstain from sex until marriage do so out of devout religious convictions. So the intersection of those two groups is probably 1% of the population, even though the percentage of the two groups would mathematically suggest that it would be larger.
Now 1% of the population isn’t an unreasonable pool to date in (a little small, but not unreasonable). However, this lady has also expressed strong opinions about age, ethnicity, kids, attractiveness (and probably some other things that I’m not recalling) … and she’s also expressed strong opinions about “not settling.”
Paul (#9) – I’m totally with you with the online dating. It just doesn’t work for a lot of us. I wish I could meet people ‘organically’, but it’s so hard to strike up a conversation with anyone you don’t know, especially if you are shy, like me. I have to say the men are not, in general, approaching me in the real world.
This ‘grass is always greener’ attitude is so foreign to me. I know what I like, so when I find it, it isn’t hard for me to know I made a good selection. I belong to a specific subculture, so to speak, and I don’t want to date outside of it. I get a lot of flack for it, but it is one of my requirements. It isn’t easy to find men of this ‘type’ and when I find one who strikes my fancy it can sting when they aren’t interested in me at all.
My greatest sorrow is that you can only date the people who want to date you. It makes me feel like we don’t really have a say in the matter. I do think I was much better off when I had the attitude that I should take what I can get (and hold on for dear life!). The sex always suffered, sure, but at least I wasn’t out there fielding this lousy dating scene! Now that I figure I should have options (like, hey, maybe I should get to date people I am actually attracted to) I find that I don’t have many options at all.
RE: The idea behind the math
I completely understand the idea of overlap. Even when it’s accounted for, your final number is shocking. When I did this exercise for myself here is what I found statistically (all statistics were taken from the Census, I believe, but it’s been a little while since I did this so I might be off).
93.4% At least 5?4?
58.6% Some college or more (which also corresponds to income levels of about $36k+)
76% Christian
40% Single (divorced or never married)
With what I consider to be the most basic standards, I’m already down to 16.6% of the male population in my 13 year target age range. And that doesn’t take into account any particular interests, politics, values, etc that you may want to use which may eliminate another large chunk of people.
I don’t say this to indicate that people should be desperate to date anyone who meets their bare standards. But when you do get down to a low percentage of people who you’d be interested in long-term, if you find someone who meets your basics I’d at least give them a shot or two to see if something develops more as they’re not necessarily a dime a dozen. Not to say that they’re one in a million, but they’re not common either. Basically, just give the person a chance.
#10-
LOL LOL Is that me? if not, I’m glad I’ve got company!
Thanks for that, A-L. But when you REALLY run the numbers, it gets a lot more dire…
Because most of my clients aren’t looking for 5’4″ men, they’re looking for 5’10” men.
Most of my clients aren’t looking for some college; they’re looking for Ivy League/JD/MBA + $100K
And, as you pointed out, we haven’t even factored in all those other must-haves:
1) Attractive
2) Honest
3) Intelligent
4) Kind
5) Funny
6) Financially Stable
7) Loyal
8 ) Family-oriented
9) Passionate
10) Generous
11) Interesting
12) Confident
13) Fit
14) Chivalrous
15) Charming
16) Ambitious
17) Sexy
18) Creative
In case you’re wondering, there is nothing wrong with this list. Except that it can keep going and going and going. For each quality you add, there’s another justifiable reason that a man is not suited for you. Even when you’re getting 17 out of 18 of your needs met, you’ll pick the ONE that makes you want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
It’s easy to turn everything into a dealbreaker. It’s a lot harder to forgive a date’s negative traits. Yet nothing’s more important. Nothing. Seriously, if my wife didn’t forgive a LOT of bad qualities, I could very easily be a 37-year-old single dating coach right now. That’s all I’m sayin’…
Evan,
Perhaps you’ll think these numbers are a bit more realistic.
34% single (never married or divorced men 30-44)
30.4% 5 10 or taller
9.75% earn $100k or more (assuming that half of all households that earn $100k or more are single males which is a VERY generous assumption)
1% of men (by these standards) are eligible to date. We’ll assume that if a single person is earning $100+k that they have the education desired.
Don’t have time to post all the links but they’re elsewhere in these threads. Income & marital info from census and height from website I found that I linked to in the short men thread.
What struck me about this video were some of the audience members shown when the camera veered off of Evan. There were a few attractive people, but a number of others looked like they would have been turned down based on appearance alone. A bit ironic as many of them were there listening Evan explain how they have set their bars too high.
The country has sure changed.
I’ve gone from being taught by ex-hippies as a child in elementary school to this video where women will publicly, unapologetically, state that they want success and money before they will consider dating a guy.
Evan,
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with an educated women wanting to date someone who’s as educated as she is. I’m single w a graduate degree, and all of my colleages and their spouses are at the same level. I think an issue is that a lot of single men at that level of education say they’re looking for the same but end up dating women who are younger/uneducated.
To Paul, you are completely right. And I think, Evan, you have your hands full. 😉
I grow weary with online dating because while I am looking for a good, everyday kind of man, I think the men are looking for something more than I am. In the beginning, I only have one hard criteria and that is they do not smoke.
Like A-L, 5′ 4″ or above is fine. I am hoping to find a dedicated, dependable hard worker who is financially self-sufficient (not a Harvard grad with a megawatt career or bank account). I am not the least bit interested in his taking care of me money wise.
I look for those things of value that truly matter in a long-term relationship, like respect for himself and others and the differences between people, emotionally healthy, the ability to make me laugh at the end of a stressful day, and carry on a good and balanced conversation. Someone who has a passion for something in his life; albeit family, reading, fishing, painting, site-seeing; anything that fuels his fire. I like the idea of someone who can be independently content and content with me, too. Of course, we would have to have some shared interests, but individual passions are great. They keep a relationship healthy.
While physical attraction is important, it can be tricky. I do not expect there to be an instant attraction. People often grow more attractive to you, once you give them the chance to reveal who they truly are. A person’s soul changes how we seem them.
So not all women are looking for Mr. Perfect. I think my decades long marriage taught me many valuable things, such as one’s ability to compromise, to be supportive, to work as a team, to forgive one’s mistakes, etc. Now I just have to find another great man. So keep those profiles interesting. 🙂
No one said there’s anything wrong with an educated woman looking for a man as educated as she is. But don’t you see the irony, Downtown?
Men will date women who are less educated. Women won’t.
Men will date women who have less money. Women won’t.
That’s fine if you insist on that. But then who has more dating options? You got it… Men.
Roughly, the odds of one person being the one is about 0.0002 percent.
At least that’s what it was for me. 🙂
Between eHarmony, I had 1306 matches that I looked at and communicated with, and between Match and OKCupid I had about 3200 matches that I looked at and communicated with. So let’s say 4500 matches.
I’d say I had about 200 phone calls, and out of those 200 phone calls, I had 55 first dates, and out of those 55 first dates, I had 8 second dates, and out of those 8 second dates, I had 1 third date.
I admit though that I was fairly picky. I read the advice to aim high, so I did.
1/4500 = .000222222
Evan,
I agree with many of the other posters — your videos rock! Your humor and warmth makes the harsh realities you share with singles a lot easier to stomach. Have you ever considered answering some of your letters via video? I think that would be really cool too.
Steve (#16): If you feel that unattractive people will be turned down on their looks alone, what’s the solution for them? Should they remove themselves from the on-line dating universe all together?
Downtowngal-
#18
I’m with you on that one. Every case is different, of course, but I’ve known educated women who’ve dated/married men without a college degree, and usually those relationships have ended because of issues about this specific difference.
I’ve got a professional degree too- and although it would be nice to date men with an advanced degree, I’m willing to date college grads who are making a decent living.
EMK #20
Women will date men not only younger but several years older. Men won’t. (I guess they can go much younger so they don’t feel they have to).
Women will date men who are overweight or not particularly attractive. Men won’t.
I have adapted – not “lowered” – my “standards’ over the years. I’m not old, but I’m not a spring chicken anymore either (middle-aged), and certainly have been discounted on age alone by many men my own age, even though I often look much younger/fitter than they do. I will certainly date a man less educated as long as he’s intelligent and has some interests in common with me. I’ve never been too money-focused, so that’s not a huge issue. I’ve expanded my geographic range with online dating, which makes dating considerably more complicated, but I figure, if it nets a terrific man, it’s worth it.
I’m still tryin’. Give me some props!
Great! You have a positive attitude, and I think that goes far in the dating world. May the odds be ever in your favor.
Mr_Right #21
My guess is that you are probably right. Where did you end up finding your S.O.?
@Kenley #22
I apologize for not making my point more clearly, which was, to put in bluntly, that a number of people in the video with (too) high standards for others didn’t look like people who would meet similarly high standards.
I’m not saying they say should join with Heather for her ritual suicide. I’m just noting the irony.
It is interesting to reread some of the comments in this thread, but substitute “men” for “women” and make the issue about looks.
Men publicly stating a certain level of attractiveness as a must, for a starting point for datability, would likely get referred to in many unflattering terms.
Some men would reply that it isn’t about looks, that looks are only an indicator of more politically correct qualities. Women indicated that money was a flag for intelligence and education. Men in the hypothetical thread likewise, would see looks as a flag for a woman caring about herself and being able to share an active lifestyle with them.
As with the women some of this would be true and some of it would be a smokescreen.
Evan’s post #20 might point out that women will date men who are less attractive than they are, but that most men will not.
Posts #26 & #27 are mine, not Kenley’s. My apologies for the confusion. Low blood sugar 🙂
@Ruby #24
Women will date men who are overweight or not particularly attractive. Men won’t.
Most men will not date other men, period :).
The overweight and unattractive men slim and attractive women date likely have money, career success or status.
I think if you distill out most people’s good qualities and leave just their primate brain women will go for status/money and men will go for looks. Thankfully, most people are operating on a bit more than just their primate brains.
Props, Ruby. And, as always, by pointing out that women discriminate against men, I wasn’t saying that men don’t necessarily do the same thing. But the many readers here are women complaining that there are “no good men”. I don’t hear the argument as much from men that there are “no good women”.
And while men may discriminate on age and weight, they seem to never lack for quality dating options. Women’s general insistence that a man be taller, smarter and wealthier means that if she’s in the 90th percentile and wants to date “above” her, there is simply a very small pool of men.
“But the many readers here are women complaining that there are no good men. I don’t hear the argument as much from men that there are no good women. And while men may discriminate on age and weight, they seem to never lack for quality dating options.”
Well, we are the “kinder, gentler” sex, Evan 😉
Of course, I’d agree that many of us could stand to be a bit less superficial. But I think when women complain there are no good men, it has more to do with men displaying emotional maturity, and treating us decently and with integrity, rather than not finding enough men who are wealthy, smarter or taller.
#30, EMK-
Well, women generally tend to take care of their appearance, have a broad range of interests, further their careers and intellects, and raise children on top of that. In other words, you have tons of women who are 1)Educated, AND 2) Attractive, AND 3) Healthy, AND 4) Have a broad range of interests and passions, AND 5) Good character.
On the other hand, it’s rare to meet a man who also has ALL of those above traits. Usually, one of them will be missing. So, naturally, men won’t say ‘there are no good women’ because it’s just not true.
I think using the word ‘good’ is a little harsh, because that passes character judgment, which is obviously unfair. Let’s use ‘desirable’ instead.
Think about it though- say you have a woman who’s in her thirties, great personality, career, looks, good sense of morality, blah blah blah…
But her dating choices involve 1) Flashy alpha male players
2) Nice guys who are also 20 years older than her, paying child support and alimony for god knows how many wives and children, obese, and balding.
These are her two pools. Well….why wouldn’t she say there aren’t any desirable men?
It’s just that- I think- women tend to have to compromise on a LOT of traits to find someone they like. Men don’t, because women just tend to be more well-rounded.
There are eligible men around, but many women lack the social network to find matching partners. Before I got married leaving the dating market, I was single for approximately 12 years. I was judged by lack of income and average height (5’9) and had no dating prospects. I had no belly and no kids, stayed fit, paid no alimony, did not drink heavily, and looked for women within 13 years of my age (I was early 30s at the time). Women did not know that despite my poor fashion style, I was well educated and preparing for a doctorate in International Business. I did not want them to know, because I prefer them to judge me on who I am, not how much I make or education level. My father’s business earned over a hundred million last year. Do you think that I would have told a date that? No. In fact, I emphasized how poor I was. I brought women back to a decrepit, but clean, apartment. I filtered for gold diggers and social climbers, and now I have a wife who loves me for who I am. She said that I was the best decision of her life. Be careful of setting your default screen too fine, or you may miss gold, as the author mentions.
Sayanta, I think we were separated at birth, you and I!
I’ve always instinctively ‘known’ everything you just mentioned, and noted to patent ‘unfairness’ of it all. I didn’t want to believe that the 2 groups of men you mention made up the dating pool for a woman in my position, but then when I got online I started to experience it. The guys who have any sex appeal are taking full advantage of it so they don’t stick around for long. The guys who want to be there for you are feeling that way out of desperation. You feel like you got stuck with all the ‘leftovers’, since any man who is worthy of or desirous of marriage is already spoken for at this point.
Women really do have to compromise a lot and it rubs me the wrong way. Why do we always have to get the short end of the stick? To add insult to injury we are criticized for being too ‘picky’ when we complain about not being able to find decent men to date. The truth is, there aren’t that many decent men to date. It isn’t our imagination! There are WAY more hot/good women than hot/good men.
Men go through life not worrying about this stuff and putting in the minimum effort. Why do they get to have that option? I suppose, on some level, we let them. In the animal kingdom the male puts on a display to court the female – what happened with our species? I feel like I’ve done all this great stuff with my life and maintained my attractiveness – for what? I’m not sharing me with some schmuck! I might die a lonely old spinster, but there are some things I will not compromise on, I’m just too honest and too stubborn.
Sayanta,
If I weren’t steeped in this type of dialogue every day, I would be offended. Let’s recap:
So lots of women are well-rounded and have good character, but few men are well-rounded and have good character? Hmm. Imagine I said this:
“Lots of men are well-rounded and have good character, but few women are well-rounded and have good character?”
How long would it take before you were typing an angry response in all caps? I assure you, 50% of the population does not have more integrity than the other 50%.
It seems you’re exclusively focused on your good traits and on men’s bad traits. You’re exclusively focused on where you have to compromise, not where men have to compromise.
This is exactly why I am a dating coach for women. To point out the side that you don’t seem to acknowledge on your own – that there are men JUST like you – educated, attractive, healthy, interesting and kind. To suggest otherwise is pure fiction.
I think that when women complain that there are no good men, they mean there are no good men to establish LTR’s or to marry — because that’s often what women are seeking when they date. I think men on the other hand, don’t necessarily have LTR and marriage as the end goal as often as women do. If a man goes out with an attractive woman, has a good time and maybe even has sex with her, but it doesn’t evolve into anything long term, he’s still pretty satisfied. Lots of women would not be satisfied with that particular scenario.
@Ruby # 25 – I found her on eHarmony. We dated 7 months, and are now engaged. 🙂
I’d recommend eHarmony over Match, but that’s just me.
Evan, Sayanta, Heather: Let’s look back at Sayanta’s 5 points in #32, because statistics DO have something to say about these:
1. Educated. A recent statistic indicated that 59% of all Americans today who graduate from college are women.
2. Attractive. Women put much more effort than men into grooming. The result: women usually look better than men. It’s not because one sex is naturally better-looking than the other. Indeed, as Heather points out, males of many species are more attractive, especially among birds.
3. Healthy. Longevity is a good indication of health in general. Women live on average 7 years longer than men.
4. Well-rounded. This I can’t speak on… maybe looking at college campuses to see who’s involved in extracurriculars would give an idea. In my mind, it comes out to about the same for men and women.
5. Good character. It’s honestly very subjective. What counts as good character for one person may not be the same as for another. I wouldn’t put either sex above the other in this case.
Kenley – I wish I could be more like a man that way! Another disadvantage we women have – that desire for LTRs. When I find something good I don’t want to let go of it … because then I’d be right back here again.
Evan – I know there are plenty of men out there who are ‘educated, attractive, healthy, interesting and kind’ I just can’t get attracted to them for some reason. That’s my problem, I guess, but it still bums me out.
#34, EMK-
I understand why what I said might seem offensive. I’m sorry it sounds harsh, but listen to this.
When I put in search critera on Chemistry or any other site, I type in a certain education range and age and browse through the profiles….very very few men are physically attractive in that criteria. When I browse through their profiles, I have a hard time finding one who hasn’t misspelled a simple English word (yeah, I know people make typos when they’re rushing, myself included- that’s why you’re supposed to proofread). Interests include drinking and sports. That’s it.
Now, just for an experiment, I tried inserting the same criteria for women, just to see what my sisters were like. I saw few unattractive faces- and interests have been as broad as fencing to art. No brutal spelling errors.
So, it seems that women really are more well-rounded and educated, at least on these sites. And I’m sure you’ve all read the Newsweek articles in the past few years stating that boys are usually ones to drop out of high school, and that more than half
of the students attending colleges and grad schools are women. If my statistics are wrong there, anyone feel free to correct me. This is an area where I’d welcome a mistake.
I’m on Meetup. My active groups all involve culture and spirituality. I’m defining culture very broadly here by the way.
Meetups almost always consist of young women and old men. So, I tried browsing through different meetups to see which one attracts more guys. Yep, you guessed it. The “Let’s spend all weekend getting trashed”- the “Let’s meet models” and “Let’s go sports-bar hopping” attracted tons, I mean tons, of young men.
As for character, you can’t distinguish that online, so I’m really just speaking from my personal experience there.
I do want to say, though, that I’m NOT saying that most men have bad character. I’m not sure how my previous post can be construed that way. I’m just saying, that if you want a good man, you might have to put up with things like balding, obesity, and age- whereas when it comes to women, men don’t need to make such compromises.
I’m not saying I don’t want to compromise at all- I’m open about race and height and religion, for example. I don’t care that much about income range (as long as the dude can maintain a family). But dating someone old enough to be my father, and whom I’m not physically attracted to is a HUGE compromise.
On the other hand, how many men looking for a good woman are forced to ask out their mom’s friends? I’m just sayin
Heather- if we weren’t different races, I’d totally agree with the birth thing! LOL
Heather #38
“I know there are plenty of men out there who are educated, attractive, healthy, interesting and kind I just can’t get attracted to them for some reason. That’s my problem, I guess, but it still bums me out.”
Gosh, what kind of man ARE you attracted to then? When I think of the opposite, it is “ignorant, ugly, sickly/fat, boring, and mean”!
Mr._Right #36
“I’d recommend eHarmony over Match, but that’s just me.”
Congratulations! Did you find people to be more serious on eHarmony?
Sayanta – I’m on Meetup too. It’s true that when I go to the events that interest me on a more deep level than ‘getting drunk’ there tend to be mostly women in attendance, with a smattering of male significant others and older men. I actually used to go to the drinking meetups, I learned a lot about bars in LA that way (since I hadn’t bothered to acquire that knowledge earlier in life). I had fun meeting people, but it was the same group of guys who tended to go to these meetups all the time, and it was sort of getting old drinking with strangers so I haven’t been to one in a while.
It seems that when you take the dating books’ advice and get out and do things that interest you, which more than likely will be something on the more ‘effeminate’ end of the spectrum, like spiritual or cultural events, it is generally other women, older folks, or gay men you run into. For instance, I take a painting class, because I enjoy art. Everyone in the class is over 60, except me and one other woman. There’s only one man in the class, and he’s a neat person, but he’s got to be around 75. On the other side of the coin, I have no interest in things that typically draw men, like sports, so I’m not going to meet anyone at a sports bar or a game. I guess we all need to find more gender-neutral activities to get involved in!
Ruby – what I mean by that is that a guy can have all the great qualities in the world, but if that certain ‘something’ (chemistry?) isn’t there, I have a lot of trouble being truly attracted. For some reason I have a lot of trouble with feeling that. Believe me, if I have an opportunity to date a great guy I will give it a shot, but the chemistry can’t be controlled.
heather-
Oh my lord- I had that painting class experience too!! In April last year. That’s just uncanny (or maybe not, since we seem to be leading double lives).
I’m curious- you said you’ve met men who are attractive, healthy, interesting, etc. but you can’t get interested in them. Is it, by any chance, because they tend to be conservative (whitebread Repub types)? Because that’s been an occurrence with me.
Thank you for pointing out what often gets lost, Heather:
You can go to salsa lessons, or book club, or scrapbooking, or French class, but there are very few age-appropriate, single, eligible, tall, cute, successful, available, interested men who attend these groups of 5-15 people.
This is why I am a big online dating advocate. Not because it’s perfect – not by a long shot – but because it gives you access to thousands of single people instantaneously. And if you haven’t connected on there, it’s mostly because you’re not doing it right. Sorry, but that’s what I believe.
EMK #44
I’ve connected with a several men both online and off over the last few years, but they tend to have major baggage issues and/or aren’t interested in LTRs. Not much I can do about that.
ok- we’re going around in circles here, but I’ll say it again. Online dating doesn’t make a difference, because- as I said above- those men don’t have interests other than drinking/sports (and sex)either. I mean, the same guys who live in sports bars are the same ones who are online. Like I said, I can’t date someone who doesn’t have any interests other than those three things.
I’m not saying I want a guy who does macrame or shops at Anthropologie with me. But it would be nice if he appreciated the higher things in life.
More generalizations. Men are cretins. Sex, drinking, sports. Just imagine a parallel blog where men vent about women being interested in nothing but shopping, celebrity gossip and makeup. Seriously. Enough. We’re all in this together. Demonizing the opposite sex gets you nowhere. As you can probably tell.
On a side note- I was just thinking-
Heather, you correctly stated that culture/spiritual, etc. groups attract mostly gay/old men. So, it seems that these men are the ones who are interested in bettering themselves, broadening their knowledge, etc.
Now, say I did compromise. And I go out with a man who has no interest in self-growth, appreciating great art, literature, or a sense of spirituality, etc. How would we possibly connect?
Our life would look like this:
1) We come home from work
2) Make love if we feel like it
3) He watches TV
4) I go read a book, write, or do whatever thing I like to do
5) We try to converse, but since his only interests are television and beer, guess what? There’s nothing to talk about!
6) Divorce
I seriously think this is what happened to American marriages. I don’t think a lot of men realize that there’s life outside of Jon Stewart and Heineken. And, I’m with Heather on that one- it’s EXTREMELY difficult, if not impossible, to compromise on that one.
BTW- why ARE gay men so much more productive and involved in the world around them than straight men? this would make an interesting research topic….
Ok, fine- I’ll stop.
Sayanta – Actually I had the experience of meeting someone last year who was great, loved me to pieces, made me feel good about myself, and totally understood me from my ‘cultural’ standpoint. I dated him, and I tried to like him more, I just couldn’t. Despite all the wonderful things about him the chemistry wasn’t there for me. It made me worry. If I can’t fall for a great guy, who can I fall for? And no, whitebread Republican types know better than to try to date me. I’m too Bettie Page looking. My ex-boyfriend, however did join the darkside when he turned Republican on me – I should have known it was over at that point!
Evan – I’m pretty sure I am doing it wrong when it comes to online dating. Unless you can give me the magic formula to attract my target group of men, I will continue to do it wrong. I just joined a website called Geek2Geek on a lark. So far I got one message and a few winks, and I’ve decided not to take it so seriously. At this point I’m just looking to ‘practice date’. Though I don’t see any ‘sexy’ guys on the website, admittedly, I do find those who identify as ‘geeks’ easier to get along with and less intimidating.
Imagine my surprise and curious delight when I read in a man’s profile that he kept a butterfly garden. But he was living too far away. I still remember his photo. You could see his face, but not as a direct close-up. He was sitting on a bench in front of his place (I presume), leaning casually backwards against the wall wearing a cowboy hat with his head tipped down slightly. His legs were crossed at the ankles. There was something humble and ordinary about the photo that pulled me in and sort of said, “I’m at peace with myself.” It was refreshingly different.
So Heather-
Not to downplay your bad experiences, but if you had such a great boyfriend, your love life hasn’t sucked totally- I’ve never been in anything serious at all! And I haven’t met wonderful guys, period.
Sayanta #46- Regarding online dating, I think part of the issue may be the way some men communicate. They may put sports and things like that as interests in their profiles and not mention their love for modern art. Why? Well they may think that’s not what women will want to hear, they want to appear ‘manly’ to stand up against the competition, or they just don’t feel compelled to share it. Of course there is a chance his life begins and ends with Monday night football, but i believe there is room to be pleasantly surprised there.
Regarding groups- I also belong to several meetup groups but they are more along the lines of singles groups and sports meetups (I like sports). I think part of the lack of eligible males in ‘culture’ centered meetup groups may be explained by the fact that lots of men aren’t group joining guys. They won’t join a group to go to an gallery opening or see a new photography exhibit- they’ll just go alone.
So what’s a girl to do? If she is so inclined, she can give an online guy a chance (by chance i mean exchanging a few emails or a phone call) even if their interests don’t immediately seem to mesh with hers and go to cultural events (maybe alone) and look outside of the official group for guys to talk to.
OMG Sayanta – what kind of man are you looking for?!?! They can’t all be knuckle-dragging dimwits!
I’m also seeing a theme – ‘my boyfriend should be/think the same as me”. That’s only true if you make it true.
My wife prefers TV to literature. She’s never done self-help. We have a CHRISTMAS tree in our home, for Chrissakes.
But we laugh at the same stuff, we have the same family values, we’re always thinking of each other, and we love to try new things together.
If I were looking for another liberal, Jewish, atheist, MENSA, small-business owner who could get along with me on all the same levels as my wife, I’d be waiting a long, long time…
I have noticed how a lot of the Meetups attract the kind of people others have referred to. I have so many interests, and I have a passion for things that are new to me that a man might want to share.
My issue is that I receive loads of scam emails (maybe my niceties give off the impression that I’m an easy target), and contacts from those who live hundreds, thousands of miles away. I sometimes read profiles to see if there’s anyone I would like to write to, but I usually do not fit with what they’re searching for. This could be age (men within a few years of my age typically want younger), religion (I’m spiritual), child issues (single mom, aka no weekend trips away or hanging at my place), hobbies (adore ALL performing arts and the arts in general, cooking, nature walking, etc.; not so manly I guess). If I read a really good profile, which is rare, I will let them know regardless. I can tell when someone has put thought and time into theirs.
Hmm, the whole “keep meeting great guys that I just don’t seem to fall for” strikes a chord. I have been wondering if some people just lack the ability to fall in love. Some people fall in love very easily and far more frequently than other people, it wouldn’t be completely out of the question for there to be a very small percentage of the population who just lack the ability to fall in love at all.
And I read somewhere that some doctors have a theory that certain types of medication can block the chemicals that lead people to fall in love. I think it’s just a theory at the moment, there’s not been enough done study-wise to really come to any conclusions but it might be throwing a big spanner in the works for some people out there.
I meet a lot of guys who are interested in me but I just feel nothing. Although I do have quite a large dating pool. I’m not particularly fussy in many areas at all. I just want to meet someone who makes me feel SOMETHING!
EMK-
You’re in Mensa? I didn’t know that….impressive…:-)
You make good points- the thing is, the arts are super super important to me. This is going to sound dramatic, but sometimes I think the arts are my only reason for living. See? Toldja that would be dramatic. So when something’s THAT big of a part of your life, it’s hard to not ever meet guys who would be able to appreciate that.
Heather- OK, not everyone I’ve met have been boring dimwits, but the ones who weren’t were also in high demand with the ladies- you catch my drift. And they were really really REALLy big assholes. Seriously, I only attract old dudes. The first guy who ever asked me out was 25- when I was 15!!! I still get carded, so it can’t be that I look old. But to this day- if a dude’s got wrinkles and white hair, you can bet he’s going to try to chat me up. The young ones who do chat me up (and that’s very rare, by the way), are the pudgy awkward Trekkie types. Not that the conversation goes very far, because if I do get friendly with them in return (which I usually do), they get all red and the ‘conversation’ goes all awkward.
Jennifer- Wow…guys think it’s ‘unmanly’ to be cultured? Only in America- I doubt European guys would be like that.
a) I probably shouldn’t have mentioned MENSA. It was many years ago, and a mistake. I should have just left it as “pseudo-intellectual”.
b) What percent of men are PASSIONATE about the arts? 5%? Great. Now what percent of them make a LIVING? What percent are emotionally STABLE? (you know artists…) In other words, if you want an artist, then put up with the fact that most are flighty, arrogant, narcissistic and penniless. In the meantime, you might want to trade off for a banker who plays in a garage band from time to time.
But make no mistake, you have to make a tradeoff.
Evan, Evan-
now you’re generalizing- about artists! 😀
Seriously though I’m not looking for an artist, necessarily. Banker in a garage band would be cool though. I don’t know if they exist, but that would be cool.
Your last sentence sounds more like a warning, like “beware of dog” LOL
Sayanta – maybe you need to find yourself some European guys! I’ve often thought about travelling to Europe myself to see who’s out there. The ‘typical’ American male, or whatever stereotype he affects, is most un-cultured. Evan is right about artists – they are a pain in the you-know-what to deal with! I have a weakness for them myself. Do you work in an arts-related field? Do you go to art walks, gallery openings, or events of that type? I do these things, and though it hasn’t scored me any cute artsy guys, at least I get to see them when I’m out and it gives me a little hope. I agree with you though on the hot guys. They are in demand and since they know it figure they can be uber-jerks about it. If a guy has the slightest idea he is a rock star (and believe me, artists do) he will treat you less than special. Unless of course, you’re that one b*tch who ruined his life!
I adore performing arts, but an LTR with an artist? Hmmm … I hadn’t thought about that. I would like to meet someone who enjoys the arts, but it’s not a deal breaker.
@ Heather.
I’m 39. I’m going to be 40 this month (Happy Birthday to me!!). I’ve been dating (mostly online) since my divorce 2 years ago following an 18 year marriage. No serious relationships. The things you describe – you not interested in them, or them not interested in you – well, that is just dating sweetie. After going for out on dates for 2 years thinking i was looking for a relationship – I discovered I really was happy being single! Since men my age (and older) ususally are looking for LTR’s, (and not usually interested in me) I started dating the guys who were interested in me, guys I usually wouldn’t have given a chance too. Guys way to young! I had been approached by younger guys and stayed away because what was the point with the age difference? But, they were talking to me, contacting me, flirting with me, asking me out so . . . . And it was SO MUCH FUN!!!! I seriously recommend it. Anyway, recently, I was approached by a guy on line who’s my age, we’ve been going out for about 3 weeks now and have decided not to see other people. He has alot of positive qualities that I want to see what happens. Btw – the quality that I find most attractive is his positive attitude. Ok – I know this was long but my point was NO REASON TO KILL YOUR SELF!!
@ everyone – I think the world is full of great men. Men of character and passion, and intelligence. I see too many examples in the men I know personally to think any differently. Look at the men who post here: Karl and Steve for example. And IF Evan had a twin!! (You don’t, do you?). They make take longer to find, but the unlike unicorns, they really do exist.
Since I’m apparently feeling chatty tonight – I love this blog. I love Evan’s wit and wisdom and think you are awesome. And i appreciate the posters comments as well. You are a group I think would love to meet.
Love all
Kris
A comment from one-half of what may be the longest-fogey-married couple frequenting this site…
The two things that matter most in a LTR are kindness and compatibility of personalities.
Not looks. (Seriously, when we met, I would rate us both 4 on a scale of 10.) Not intelligence. Not a high-paying job. Not great sex. Not even compatibility of interests, if you can believe that.
Sayanta, I too am an arts/music/literature freak. My hubby can’t carry a tune, falls asleep when listening to classical music, and teases me for loving art museums so much. It doesn’t matter for a LTR. Not at all. Please believe me on this. If and when you have kids, you are not going to have time for that anyway.
You want a hubby who will be on your side, who always defends you, who sympathizes with you, who tells you he loves you and reminds you of your good qualities. You want someone who appreciates you and loves you. You don’t need a brilliant, handsome, or cultured man for that.
Sayanta #58- I get what you are saying, but i said some guys, particularly online, may want to appear more manly to stack up against the competition. I’m guessing in european countries where machismo is the order of the day things may play out similarly, with some guys.
But if it helps to keep hope alive, i’ve seen profiles online where guys have talked about their love of the arts and some pepper their profile with pictures they’ve drawn or taken. I’ve seen guys really into music too (not just ‘producers’) so it is possible.
Sophie #57 – I know where you are coming from with the wanting to feel SOMETHING!
I used to be one of those people who fell in love easily. Then, after about a year of therapy, I didn’t feel that need to cling onto a man for dear life anymore. Attraction became more about actual attraction than desperation to me, and I’m still having difficulty adjusting to that. I suppose this was a step in the right direction, but the drawback to this is that I don’t ‘fall in love’ quite so easily anymore.
I’ve perused the idea that maybe I lack the capacity to really fall in love, even the possibility that I am a commitment-phobe. Whatever the case may be, I’ve been taking time for myself and I’m determined to do it right from now on. I saw a pattern in all of my past relationships, of being the passive half of the couple. I don’t want to keep repeating that, so one thing I insist on is ‘chemistry’ borne of strong attraction. No more adjusting myself to fit his life or availability to me.
The only thing that puts pressure on me is this perception that I lose my desirability as I get older, and my mate selections only get lessened as time goes on. But I suppose it could be far worse.
Amen, Helen. Your post is the one biggest thing that changed me from being a single dating coach to being a married dating coach: learning to value and prioritize what is truly most important in life. Thank you for sharing.
Kristyn – I don’t seriously want to kill myself, but my idea of what romance looks like has definitely been killed for me. I’m happy for you that you’ve been getting so much interest and are enjoying your single days. You were married for a long time, so maybe dating gives you a sense of fun and freedom you haven’t had for a while. My ‘dating’ experiences (or lack thereof) over the past 2 years have been a bit of a painful learning experience – not so fun. I hope I can do something to change that, but I am SO stubborn. (BTW – are you a Capricorn too?)
Helen/Evan – When do I get to feel this revelation?
EMK #30, I think it says as much about the men as it does about the women. I don’t think it’s that womeon are pickier, it’s that men like this aren’t looking for the same things as women. The single women I know are looking for someon w LTR potential.
I’ve heard guys complain they can’t i find a quality gal, but then ends up dating lunachicks or women who are not LTR potential because they only think of the short term. Or, once they meet a quality gal, they mess it up by playing games, mixed messages…basically doing things you’ve advised women to stay away from.
I agree that many women have their ‘lists’ that should be expanded. And I’ve dated all kinds of guys; but I know what I’m attracted to, and if I can’t be with someone I can relate to at the end of the day then it’s likely not going to work.
Helen, though I am now sadly divorced, I was with my former husband for nearly 30 years, and your last paragraph is exactly how I feel. My goodness. If I had aimed for superior intelligence, suave good looks, career-driven money, etc., my beautiful children would not exist today and neither would the terrific years we had together. Our personalities were very much in sync, and while we did share similar interests, we had our own, too.
I was a baby (17) when we met, but I had wisdom beyond my years in this department. I looked for humor, respect, kindness, and fun to be with. It was as simple as that. Sex was good (and sometimes out of this world), but our relationship didn’t seem to be defined by that, and the intensity fades to some extent in time. Yet the bond that is created through a good life lived together is irreplaceable.
I know what worked for me the first go round and that is essentially still what I look for today.
Helen-
Your post is very encouraging and sweet- as usual. I guess I’m just hard to please (Venus in Virgo- LOL). I see what you’re saying…maybe, it’s because I adore passionate men? And I tend to associate having passion with some arts-related thing? Don’t ask me why.
As for the art museums, I’m definitely taking my future children to them! lol When I was a kid, my parents took me to every cultural event you could imagine- kudos to them, but it’s also made me uber-snobby, i think! 😀
Helen #64
I do think you are correct if a couple plans to have children. You want your partner to be a great parent. The main common interest is going to be the kids. Compatibility of personalities and kindness are always important. But if you’re not going to have children, and are looking for companionship, common interests become much more important. You don’t have to share everything, but I can’t imagine being with someone who didn’t share at least some of my interests.
#1: When women say they want an educated guy, they really mean a guy who went to college, preferably an Ivy League school, preferably with an advanced degree. One of my best friends dropped out of college, but reads voraciously on–and is interested in–all sorts of subjects, and I would say he’s better-educated in general than I am, with an advanced degree. But I’d guess that 99% of women out there would discount him based on the fact that he never finished college.
#2: Maybe if you’re the kind of person who doesn’t need their own space and wants to do everything with their SO at all times, you’d want someone who’s into everything you’re into. But I wouldn’t want to. If she’s into a few of them, that’s great–it gives us something in common to do, or talk about. But otherwise, by dating someone who’s into different things you’ll learn more from that person than you will if you’re both into the same stuff.
Joe-
Ivy League’s not necessary- I went to a state school myself, so that would be hypocritical of me.
And I personally do tons of stuff on my own- but I like what Ruby said above about the common interests thing.
Ruby #40
Yep, I’d say that most of the people I met were compatible, as well as more serious than on other dating sites. Though like any other site, they had their share of crazies. 🙂
Joe #73 I’m an Ivy grad and I don’t need my dates to be Ivy educated. Neither do my friends from school. There are so few ivy league schools that by the time you throw other criteria in there (age, height, race, religion, values, personal interests, looks) that is a pretty small pool of people. I can’t imagine the majority of women are really making that a requirement or even a strong preference. I’d hope not anyway.
But I wholeheartedly agree with you that when people say educated they almost always mean college educated, not just a smart or well-read person.
Sayanta, (#32)
Let’s look at your categories when comparing men to women:
1) Educated – Once you narrow the focus to people with your target background (presumably middle-class), the ratio of 59% female college graduates gets a lot closer to 50%.
2) Attractive – Unless you’re bisexual, I’m going to assume you have the same bias as I do when looking at profiles. Members of the same sex are labeled as “attractive” if they’re likely to be attractive to a reasonable number of the opposite sex. Members of the opposite sex are labeled as “attractive” ONLY if they’re attractive to me. In short, I see a higher percentage of men being attractive then women.
3) Healthy – Differences in male health statistics are almost exclusively due to men egaging in risky behaviors in their teens and early twenties. The rest are almost exclusively due to men having higher rates of (successful) suicides. Once you subtract those differences, women live about a year longer than men.
4) Have a broad range of interests and passions – Who determines which interests and passions count? Why is macrame more “cultured” than auto repair? (I have no interest in either.) I could make very strong arguements that you see your own interests as “more cultured” than activities that have no interest to you.
5) Good character – This is entirely subjective. I don’t think either sex has the edge in this regard.
Like Sayanta and Heather, I have trouble getting positive responses on dating sites. Let’s see how I match up on Sayanta’s criteria…
5) Character – Kristyn’s compliment (#63) aside, this is subjective. Personally, I think that the same rules apply to both parties in a relationship, and I place higher expectations upon myself than others. (BTW – thanks Kristyn.)
4) Interests and passions – I sing in a choir, know 10 styles of dance, practice yoga, enjoy live music, used to draw & paint, read voraciously (primarily SciFi), study comparitive theology, enjoy ethnic foods, play some online computer games… and this could get to be an extremely long list (even though I have little interest in watching sports).
3) Healthy – I’m 5’11”, 160 lbs., and exercise 4-6 days per week. My blood pressure, pulse and cholesterol are good. A couple years ago I broke a finger. I set the bone and splinted it myself (I was uninsured at the time), and continued to practice yoga despite the injury (down dogs and all) while it healed.
2) Attractiveness – If you like really masculine men, I’m not your type. But I am some women’s type, and quite strongly so.
1) Education – Hopefully my intelligence and education are obvious from my writing. Granted, my comments on this blog are hastily written compared to my profile (which I spent a lot of time on), and my primary strength is with numbers, not words. But I’m comfortable in letting my writing tell the tale. However, I’m sure some women eliminated me for my education level without ever reading my profile. I don’t have a college degree, and most women are looking for someone who has at least a bachelors. (Financially, my income is also above the median for those with a bachelors.)
If there’s such a dearth of men meeting these criteria, why weren’t women rushing to answer my emails? Why was the interest expressed largely nonexistant or half-hearted?
Online dating is difficult (and unfair) for almost everyone, not just women. My results have been vastly better meeting women through my interests (particularly dancing).
It’s easy to understand why dating offline works better for most people. A person can’t bring their 18-point shopping list onto the dance floor. A woman has already decided whether or not she wants to date me before she gets all the way through the list.
I’m just curious, if all or most women want to date someone who’s equally educated or higher than they are ie:
Degree only dates degree and higher(Masters,PHD)
Some college only dates or wants = or higher(degree or the above)
High School Grad only dates or wants ^^^^^^^^^
Who exactly is Joe “Construction worker” makin 50,000-70,000K
supposed to be with?
“Mike,the plumber”??? ……
(no not Mike from Desperate Houswives….lol)
“Bob the electrician”??? “Jack the mechanic??, “Fireman” ???
Most of these guys, if not all have no degree per se. Who are these guys female equals? Retail sales girls??
I don’t blame a woman who’s educated for not wanting to date below themselves education wise sometimes but just because a man has a Bachelor’s degree doesn’t automatically make him a better or more intelligent man let alone more attractive than one without. I know sadly a lot of women think this way. Online these men have no value unless of course they’re a 9 or 10 looks wise including height.
Karl is right, before a dance nightclub closed by my house 2 years ago where 35-55 year olds would meet and dance I used to meet 90% of any women I dated there and 10% on the internet. “Chemistry” the old fashioned way. 600 people from all walks of life meeting 4 times a week. Now in my life it’s reversed 90% internet,10% singles events. Also in my 40’s there are alot more variables in the equation.
I have 2 degrees, one in interior design and one in architecture. Despite the fact that I spent 8 years of my life in college, I did not have this education requirement from men. One of the last guys I dated was a 40 year old guy who was about 5′-6″ and worked in a record store. He was a responsible guy with a cute look and he was a musician, and since I gravitate toward that type, I didn’t mind the lack of college, the record store job, or the not-so-tall thing (I’m not so finicky about stature either). I was willing to forego that ‘requirement’ for equal educational status, because, frankly, it wasn’t a factor in attraction for me. I figure I got the college degrees so I could ensure my own success and income level without depending on a man, so why would I disqualify a man on this basis? I have discovered, however, that it isn’t as easy to relate to a guy who didn’t go to college. I had to break up with a boyfriend while I was in college because he was so threatened by it (also 5′-6″, BTW). And my record store man had a problem with the fact that I was making twice as much money as him. It was fun, but I should’ve known it wouldn’t last.
I think most women prefer college educated men because they figure they make better money. I never wanted to have kids, so I don’t feel that need to have a strong breadwinner to take care of the family. I also grew up in a blue collar family, so I don’t see a need to fit into some social caste. I know that tradesmen, like the ones you mentioned, usually make pretty good money (and who doesn’t mind having a man around who can fix things!), so I don’t know if money is the motive. Also, I know at least one woman who absolutely goes gaga for firemen!
Anyhow, some of us educated women aren’t so particular about that. I’d still date a college dropout, or a high school graduate, as long as he had his sh*t together and was in possession of an open mind. When I say I want someone ‘intelligent’ that doesn’t necessarily imply ‘book smarts’.
Just wanted to comment on the educational status thing. I have a bachelor’s degree and am a thesis away from my Master’s (which I’ll never finish). I haven’t looked at my Match profile but I’m pretty sure I said some college. But if a guy seemed intelligent and wrote well but had less education then that, then he was also considered (only happened a couple of times). I also knocked off plenty of guys with the same or greater education than me because it was apparent that they didn’t learn anything while there (at least from their poorly written profile). But the guys I dated skewed towards the educated. 99 times out of a 100 I’d rather have a game night playing Trivial Pursuit than go out to a bar or clubbing. And most guys who weren’t college educated usually didn’t care for stuff like that. And that’s a big enough part of my life that I definitely wanted to share that with a partner.
Despite my statement about wanting to share in some intellectual stimulation, I don’t think that a couple has to have identical interests. There’s also the matter of compromise. For instance, like Sayanta, I love the arts. My boyfriend will go to plays with me, but as far as the opera or symphonies go, he’d rather keep it to a minimum. So he’ll go a couple of times a year just to make me happy, but then the rest of the time I go with friends. There is so much other stuff in our lives to discuss and do that even though we don’t share this interest, we can accommodate each other and still be quite happy. And I suspect this is what Helen, Evan, and Diana are talking about.
Heather-
Right on with the threatened thing- I mentioned that earlier too.
Honestly, women like ambitious men- and men who have a college degree/advanced degree are assumed to be ambitious. Before you all jump down my throat, I know there are exceptions to this (Bill Gates), there are intelligent men without degrees…etc. etc. But, as you can tell by the blog comments, people work by generalization: eg artists are flakes, lawyers are sharks, accountants are boring, you get where I’m going with this. So this is another generalization that tends to be true in a lot of cases and not in others. Peace.
Sayanta #81, actually Bill Gates did graduate from Harvard undergrad. It was the law school from where he dropped out.
That aside, i agree w you. Women want a guy who has his act together, and a guy who has a good job, his own business (i.e. general contractor, coffee shop) or has attained a certain level of eductation assumes he does. Though I’ve found that’s not always the case – I’ve dated guys who were ‘good on paper’ (grad degree, Ivy league, cute, tall, etc.) but were a mess – arrogant or emotional basket cases, incessant mama’s boys, etc.
So you never know…
Intelligence comes in many forms. My father was in Mensa, yet only completed the 8th grade. He had a genius IQ. I guarantee you would have been veeeery hard pressed to beat him at Scrabble or Jeopardy. My former husband is also incredibly smart, but he does not have a college degree. Both of these men were/are voracious readers.
So while it’s totally understandable that formal education is associated with smarts, that’s not always the case. And there are some pretty smart men (and women) who have absolutely no common sense, or struggle with emotional intelligence.
Sayanta said: (#81)
“Honestly, women like ambitious men”
My boss is an ambitious man. His ambition has earned him a lot of money and status. I can see why women want that.
He also works 80-100 hours per week. His wife has read him the riot act (multiple times) about being absent from his children’s lives (he has three teenagers). This week she’s struggling to get the house ready for the office holiday party, and keep his parents entertained. My boss is spending this week in Portland and Chicago. He spent most of Thanksgiving weekend reviewing documents for a case (though he was, technically, at “home”).
My father was a professor, and completely lacking in professional ambition. He spent a year as an associate dean and thoroughly hated it. When the university president considered him for the job of provost, he couldn’t refuse quickly enough. Not only did he manage to support four children solely on his income, he saw us off to school every morning and was also home for dinner about 28 evenings each month.
If you want wealth, a husband with a prestigious job, and all the material perks that come along with it, I can see why you would want an ambitious man. But if you want a partner who will help you raise your children (instead of leaving that entire task to you), then I think you’re confused about how to get what you want.
Karl-
Honestly, I personally would put your father into the category of ‘ambitious’ just by the fact that he was a professor.
Karl #84: It’s BECAUSE I am ambitious that I would never take a position as an associate dean or a provost. (I’m a professor like your dad.) If you take one of those positions, your research career basically dies. I’d rather be renowned for my research nationally or internationally than take an administrative position. Your dad was smart and savvy: getting out of the deanship after just 1 year so that his research track would not falter significantly.
Sayanta and downtowngal got it right before: Though we women say we want smart men, it isn’t so much the raw brainpower that matters to us as the fact that on average, smart men tend to have it all together more. We don’t want to date or marry someone whom we have to mother. We do like caring for our special man, but we don’t want him to be dependent on us for basic life needs.
Helen-
good points- and I wish I was one of your students! 🙂
Here’s an article relating less education to anger- sobering. And, I guess, a ‘point’ for those of us who insist on educated SOs.
Thanks Sayanta. 🙂 You have plenty to teach me, too!
That was an interesting article: it’s not just lower education that leads to anger, but also economic hardship, time pressure, and having children. All of these are highly relevant to the topic of whom we choose to marry, and whether to have kids. Firsthand, very sadly, I have seen marriages around me tank because of anger from wives or husbands related to economic hardship and the difficulty of childrearing.
I wonder, though, whether lower education was directly linked with greater anger, or whether the actual link is that less education is usually associated with lower salaries, leading to financial hardship. Maybe if someone who wasn’t very educated married someone who was financially very stable, then the anger wouldn’t emerge.
I agree with Helen. Statistics don’t always show the full picture.
Economic hardship, which can result from a lower education level, is a major stressor, and stress can definitely lead to anger and resentment which in turn leads to further unhappiness, lower self esteem, frustration and less ability to cope in a demanding world. It’s a bit of a vicious cycle. I think the anger comes not from lack of education but from the situation arising from or contributing to that.
Heather
I’m a sag. I knew you weren’t serious. I have had the same frustrations as you, the guys I like rudely don’t reciprocate the feeling, the guys with huge red flags or the ones who are excited about me and I can’t find any interest in them, massive amounts of really odd people online; ah, the joys of dating. IT is really hard to keep dating, keep getting your hopes up, keep being positive time after time after time.
On this other topic of being dateable, I’m so glad there is such a huge variety of people in the world. Not every one has a high I.Q. Wouldn’t it be awful to struggle intellectually and be married to someone highly intelligent? I’d hate for the person I loved most in the world to think I was beneath them intelligent wise (or worse to think I was dumb) or really in any area of life.
Kristyn – good to know it isn’t just me and that everyone experiences dating misery!
Regarding intelligence – it’s good, but there’s nothing worse than a smart guy who’s cocky about it! I think I’d rather have a sweet dimwit.
Helen said: (#86)
“Though we women say we want smart men, it isn’t so much the raw brainpower that matters to us as the fact that on average, smart men tend to have it all together more. We don’t want to date or marry someone whom we have to mother. We do like caring for our special man, but we don’t want him to be dependent on us for basic life needs.”
Sayanta said: (#88)
“Here’s an article relating less education to anger […] And, I guess, a point for those of us who insist on educated SOs.”
Let’s say that I want a dependable car. I decide to buy a foreign car, because they on average are more dependable than American-made cars. That “on average” won’t make my car more dependable if I end up buying a Yugo. I’d do much better selecting a car (foreign or domestic) based on its track record for reliability.
If you want a man who can take care of himself without your help, look for that trait. If you want a man who doesn’t get angry easily, look for that trait.
It really simplifies your search if you just look for the traits that you actually want and need.
Karl R, I wonder if you’re missing the point.
“It really simplifies your search if you just look for the traits that you actually want and need.”
I’ve never online-dated in my life, but am pretty sure there’s no easy way to tell on an online site whether a man can take care of himself without a woman’s help or whether he gets angry easily. The information that IS offered, as I understand it, is education level. Absent the other useful information described above, it makes sense that women would use the information they DO have (education) to make estimates about other traits regarding the man.
As -I think- is evident from my previous posts, I’d like to find a man who wants to advance himself on all possible levels (emotionally, physically, materially, and, if relevant, spiritually). I’ve done (and attempt to continue to do) the same for myself.
The argument about whether college = brains, ambition, etc. could go on forever. And ever. And ever. I think it’s pretty safe to say that college degrees generally open more social and economic avenues for people. So if I meet someone who has that degree, I’m operating under the assumption that this person cares about expanding his opportunities in life- which is an admirable trait, one that I think I have, and one that I would like my husband to have.
I’ve met people who grew up in the ghetto, worked HARD putting themselves through college and grad school. Did they want to quit? Hell yeah- try working at a thankless job and spending the few hours you have expending the energy toward classes and exams. But they didn’t, because they knew about the opportunities out there.
Then I have known middle-class people (mostly men) who decided that college education was bourgeoise, and they wanted to stick it to THE MAN by dropping out.
Well, about 10 years later, those students who worked through college, grad school, etc., are pretty satisfied (some of them have their s-t together better than I do), and the ones who dropped out keep complaining about their finances and their lack of opportunity- issues that might be resolved if they went back to school. But going back to school would be selling out. Hey, it’s their life.
And Yes, Yes, Yes- I know there are exceptions to everything I have stated above. That doesn’t change my opinion about whom I want to marry. And since I’m not a stickler about grad school, and there are a decent number of male college graduates in my age range, I don’t think I’ll have a problem. Yes, I admit I may have to compromise on some other criteria, but oh well.
And- Yes, I know that men who work in vocational trades are hard workers too. And that they make a shitload of money sometimes. This is where educational/class differences might come in though. I grew up pretty well-off, going to lots of cultural events, traveling, etc.
And, again, I realize there may be exceptions to this, but most plumbers, auto mechanics, etc. probably did not grow up the way I did. Does this mean they’re not good-hearted family men? Of course not! But am I going to be able to relate to someone on an intimate level when we have polar opposite backgrounds, along with ideas on finances and child-rearing? I doubt it.
@Mr_Right:
I totally agree about Eharmony being better than other sites because people seem to be more ‘serious’ on there as well as less superficial. I also feel that what part of the country you’re from can play a role in online dating and dating in general. I’m from NY and here the women (in general) tend to be more on the superficial side. What part of the country are you from?
Sayanta #95 brings up some good points, and reminds me of another one – it’s not just education levels, it’s values. I’ve dated guys who are contractors/plumbers, many of these are good guys w their own businesses and are very street-wise; however what didn’t do it for me was that we didn’t share the same values. I would want to support my kids in having the best academic opportunities available, and these guys had different priorities in that regard. Doesn’t mean they’re bad guys or that I’m to picky, just not for me.
Helen said: (#94)
“Absent the other useful information described above, it makes sense that women would use the information they DO have (education) to make estimates about other traits regarding the man.”
If you’re looking for a man who has his act together, you could look at a few other pieces of information which are available: income, profession, and living situation. Is the man living with his parents or a roommate? How much is he making? What kind of job does he have? All of those are listed in the profile.
If you want to know how a man handles anger, ask him about his last relationship. Does he seem bitter? Does he blame the woman for everything that went wrong in the relationship? You can get this information out of someone during your first phone call or your first date.
For some people, it makes sense to filter out people quickly by whatever information is available. If one hundred women are interested in me, I should narrow the pool down to the few who are most likely to be good matches.
If I’m only going on one first date a month, I have the time to take a closer look at women who might turn out to be exceptions to my initial estimates.
Sayanta said: (#95)
“I’d like to find a man who wants to advance himself on all possible levels (emotionally, physically, materially, and, if relevant, spiritually). I’ve done (and attempt to continue to do) the same for myself.”
If I understand you correctly, you feel your criteria are reasonable since you expect no less from yourself.
“there are a decent number of male college graduates in my age range, I don’t think I’ll have a problem.”
If that was your main criteria, or one of a few criteria, I’d say you would have a point. But you’ve stated that your partner:
1. Must be trying to advance himself materially (ambitious).
2. Must be trying to advance himself physically.
3. Must be trying to advance himself emotionally.
4. Must be no more than six years older than you.
5. Must be interested in having children.
6. Can’t be of an ethnic background that has a conservative view of a woman’s role (which includes most men of your own ethnic background).
7. Must be sexually attractive.
8. Must have a bachelors’ degree.
9. Must be intelligent. (An important distinction, since there are some people with degrees who fall short in the intelligence department.)
10. Must have good character.
11. Must be healthy.
12. Must be interested in spirituality.
13. Can’t be a conservative Republican.
14. Must have an interest in great literature and (or?) great art.
15. Can’t be socially awkward.
16. Must be passionate.
17. Must be willing to wait until marriage for sex.
18. Any others that I’m unaware of. (non-smokers?)
Since you meet (or exceed) all of these criteria, you believe that it’s reasonable that your future partner meets all of these criteria too.
Imagine this hypothetical scenario: You meet a man who meets all of these criteria … and not just at the minimum. He has season tickets to the symphony. He can quote Chaucer and Dante. He paints for a hobby. He has a terrific personality. You like this guy. He’s everything you could want in a man.
Furthermore, he finds you attractive, fascinating and funny. He genuinely enjoys being around you.
But you don’t quite meet his standards … because he likes to play tennis competitively (as an amateur), and he wants a girlfriend/wife who can be his mixed-doubles partner. And even if you play tennis, you just aren’t up to his level.
Do you think that expectation is unreasonable? He meets it. Why shouldn’t his girlfriend? Your date’s list of criteria won’t be identical to your own, and he/she will have a different order of importance as well.
It’s always possible to add one more standard to the list … and that standard will rule a few more potential dates out.
Sayanta said: (#52)
“I’ve never been in anything serious at all! And I haven’t met wonderful guys, period.”
So there’s something wrong with all of the straight, single men in New York City?
In that list of 17 (or more) characteristics that you’re looking for, I skipped over the one characteristic that actually matters. “He accepts you just the way you are.” Evan found that in his wife. I found that in my girlfriend. My girlfriend found that in me.
If I’m understanding you correctly, you can’t find any men that meets your standards. There’s not one man (whom you’ve met) that you can accept just the way he is. If that’s true, that means you lack the only trait that’s essential in a relationship.
That kind of turns the whole picture around, doesn’t it?
Karl, that was brilliant. Please don’t mind if/when I steal it…
Karl,
I also really liked your conclusion in #98.
And what Helen wrote in # 64: about one of the most important things is compatibility of personalities.
This goes along with something Evan has written on this blog before about his wife, “She “gets” me.
Isn’t that what we all really want in partner – someone who truly “gets” us?
Seems to me, the longer an arbitrary list of “must haves” one has when it comes to a potential partner, the less likely they are to meet those souls who might actually “get” them. Simply because they are too focused on the externals – the creditentials – as it were. If that hasn’t been working perhaps it’s time to pare down, or toss the list?
Evan and Selena, thanks for the compliment. Evan, go ahead and use that example whenever you like.
And I think Selena (#100) and I (#98) are making the same point in different ways.
Thanks Evan and Selena.
I personally tend not to worry too much about lists: my own or anyone else’s. Hasn’t everyone had the experience in which they thought they required A, B, and C in a man or a woman; and then they meet someone who doesn’t have all or any of those, but they adore that person anyway and realize s/he’s the right one? I know I have in the past. And the list gets thrown right out the window.
But maybe it’s easier for me to say since I’ve never done online dating… and this gets back to a point that Karl (or someone else earlier) mentioned about simply going out and meeting people in person, as much as possible. Then you’ll discover all those wonderful people who wouldn’t have made the first cut on your lists.
@ Helen #102:
That’s always been my experience. I’ve never done online dating either, and while I can see Evan’s point in it’s value – a way to meet thousands of people instantaneously- perhaps the “filtering” aspect of it is being taken too seriously, too far, by some. It was Paul #9 who wrote about meeting people, getting to know them, deciding to date, and finding the size of their nose, whatever, doesn’t matter at all.
Online dating seems to be a bit like “wish list” catalogue shopping: if the Armani suit and the flannel shirt are the same price, why not try to order the Armani? Though it may not get shipped to your address – or when you open the package…you find it’s a dreadful fit.
If one is using an arbitrary list to pick and choose through online profiles, are they doing the same in offline life? “Not enough education – not interested.” “Doesn’t make enough money – not interested.” “Not 5’10” or over – not interested.” Etc., etc. It’s only by talking to someone you find out if you have compatible personalities (love that)…or not.
And when you do find that? List? What list? I had a list? Oh yeah, but what did I know then! 🙂
Sayanta,
Since you are so interested in the arts, do you have a job in that field? If not, have you considered volunteering?
I live near two small museums that are asking for volunteers for the season (I live in Fl). A few years ago I worked for a company that donated to them. Volunteering for arts organizations you patronize, either by working on the premises, or out in the city drumming up potential support, might be a way for you to meet men who at least have a passing interest, if not a passion shared. A place to start, yes?
Karl R @ 98: Aren’t you the one with the backup in case it doesn’t work out with current GF? How does this jibe with “accepting her the way she is”? And does she know and accept that you have a potential spare in the background should things not work out (“working out” being what, anyway)? Just saying….
Hang in there, Sayanta. I don’t think your list is unreasonable. You can find a partnership that is mutually satisfying to you and your guy. Even in New York, though it is a tough town. (Did my grad work there–in the arts! 🙂 )
You only need one special guy–so hats off to you for knowing yourself well enough to avoid all those who would be inappropriate. What a waste of time dating noncontenders is if you have very specific desires in a mate.
My SO is also in the arts–and I can tell you that the stereotypes about artistic men on this board do not apply. He is extremely responsible, very kind and insightful, well compensated for his work (as am I), and respectful of women. But yes, he is a rare bird, and I feel so very lucky to be with him.
Janet-
THANK YOU for understanding my POINT!
btw- may I ask how you found your SO? 🙂
The thing that no one seemed to be getting about my “list” is that most of it goes to character, personality, and interests, and how a couple can mesh without these things is beyond me.
If I was saying something like, I MUST date someone who’s over 6 feet and he MUST have blond hair and green eyes- blue won’t do- then, yeah, that would be pretty ridiculous.
But, you know what, people can argue on this board all they want: it all goes down to the same thing. People have different opinions about life in general, and writing lengthy debates about a person’s view is not going to change that person’s view. It’s like telling a Republican to become a Democrat, for Chrissake.
Janet-
One more thing: sorry to be nosy, but mind if I ask what kind of work your SO and yourself do? No titles necessary or anything- I’m looking to change careers, and trying to get ideas. 🙂
Heather (or was it someone else?) made a good point. If I want to meet a certain kind of man, it’s good to have a career where I meet those kind of men, right? lol Not that man-hunting is my reason for the career change- I’m just sayin’…
Janet asked: (#105)
“Karl R, aren’t you the one with the backup in case it doesn’t work out with current GF?”
Yes. However, as our relationship has progressed, that has appeared to be increasingly unnecessary.
“How does this jibe with ‘accepting her the way she is’?”
Accepting her the way she is does not imply that she will necessarily accept me the way I am.
Furthermore, I may accept someone the way they are, yet still have incompatible goals. In my previous serious relationship, my ex-girlfriend wanted lots of kids, while I wanted none. We’re still friends, and I hope that she finds someone who will be a wonderful husband and father. But I’m not intersted in being a father.
” ‘working out’ being what, anyway)?”
For convenience sake, let’s call it a long-term, exclusive relationship.
“And does she know and accept that you have a potential spare in the background should things not work out”
I may have mentioned it to her, but I don’t remember for certain. I can’t imagine that the idea would bother her … particularly in context of the initial stages of our relationship.
We’d been acquainted for 10 months before we ever had a conversation that lasted more than a few minutes. During that first long conversation, my girlfriend told me that she wasn’t interested in a serious relationship with me. Instead, there was a widower and long-time friend of hers that she was interested in. However, she was open to dating casually (and implied that a casual sexual relationship might also be a possibility).
I initially expected our relationship to be a week-long fling (our group was on a week-long cruise), followed by some non-exclusive dating while I continued looking for a serious relationship.
By the end of that week, I’d decided that I would postpone dating anyone else in order to see where things led. At the three-month mark, I confirmed that the widower was no longer in the picture (though I had suspected it for weeks).
But I’ll try to remember to mention this to my girlfriend to see if she has specific comments to add.
Janet said: (#105)
“hats off to you [Sayanta] for knowing yourself well enough to avoid all those who would be inappropriate. What a waste of time dating noncontenders is if you have very specific desires in a mate.”
Would you extend the same congratulations to a 40-year-old, balding, divorcee, truck driver who wants a beautiful, classy lady 10-15 years his junior? He has very specific desires in a mate, and he’s not wasting his time dating noncontenders.
Just saying….
Karl: Yes, I would extend the same congratulations if he felt that that was truly what he wanted. In truth, I have seen it happen. In almost every case it was a situation where the man was an older, white, middle-/upper-class American and the younger, beautiful woman was from a less-priveleged, foreign background, but who can say that they aren’t both happy with that arrangement. As a matter of fact, I would highly recommend those foreign dating sites for American men who want youth and beauty but who aren’t real contenders for the supermodels they fantasize about. There are many women who are willing to trade youth and beauty for security. If both parties win and are happy, why should anyone care about the why?
Sayanta: My SO and I are both classical musicians and we met on a project several years ago. We also teach and write. I know many creative people, and the trick to being financially viable is to have many income streams and to be smart about money. You can meet a lot of interesting people through your work–whether it’s your creative work or your bread-and-butter job.
The idea of compromise isn’t alien to us–we do compromise every time we play a job that isn’t up to our standards (and there are many of them 🙂 ). But we didn’t compromise or settle for each other. We were drawn to each other out of a shared passion for our work and a very strong mutual respect. Doesn’t hurt that we’re both very attracted to each other, too!! Will admit that we weren’t drawn t0 each other at first–the work eclipsed all else. We knew each other for awhile before we got together, too. So there were no nervous dates or anything like that. I don’t believe that this is the usual way that people find each other. It worked for us.
And I agree with you, Sayanta, that your list speaks more to character, personality and interests than to the superficial, which Karl’s example speaks to. It takes all kinds to make the world go ’round, so no judgment of eithrer way. Sayanta, your uniqueness will have its own rewards, both professionally and interpersonally, so you can take what you need here and leave the rest. This site does seem to be more for cookie-cutter dating relationships and not very open to those who are looking for something outside the formula. But there are plenty of nonformulaic people out there, and yes, you will find them in the arts.
It is tough to be an independent thinker and buck the so-called norm, but the rewards are great. 🙂 Best of luck with it!!!
Janet-
Thanks so much for your uplifting post- I’m glad that you and your SO found each other, and I wish you the best. You’ve also given me hope! 🙂
In #98 Karl wrote that Sayanta’s wishlist appeared like the following:
<I>
1. Must be trying to advance himself materially (ambitious).
2. Must be trying to advance himself physically. pretty much the same as #11
3. Must be trying to advance himself emotionally.
4. Must be no more than six years older than you.
5. Must be interested in having children. <B> majority of the dating pool
6. Can’t be of an ethnic background that has a conservative view of a woman’s role (which includes most men of your own ethnic background). majority of the dating pool
7. Must be sexually attractive. <B> **
8. Must have a bachelors degree.
9. Must be intelligent. (An important distinction, since there are some people with degrees who fall short in the intelligence department.) <B> **
10. Must have good character. <B> majority of the dating pool
11. Must be healthy. <B> pretty much the same as #2
12. Must be interested in spirituality.
13. Can’t be a conservative Republican. <B> majority of the dating pool
14. Must have an interest in great literature and (or?) great art.
15. Can’t be socially awkward. <B> majority of the dating pool
16. Must be passionate.
17. Must be willing to wait until marriage for sex.
18. Any others that I’m unaware of. (non-smokers?)
The list looks long-ish, but a lot of it can be condensed, and some of it may not be as demanding as it first appears (comments in bold on the list are mine). There’s more of a continuum for many of these categories and depending on where on that continuum Sayanta falls would determine whether or not her expectations are quixotic or feasible.
In relation to
#1 ambitious : In comments #124-135ish in the Why Don’t Men Like Smart, Strong, Successful Women thread there was plenty discussion of what ambitious actually means. If you’re looking for someone super-driven who wants to have an income in the top 1% of the population, then it’s a small group. Or if it’s just ambitious enough to get through college and have a solid job, then that’s a far larger group of people. Also, being ambitious does not necessarily link with advancing himself materially. Someone might earn $100k but spend it all, and even be in debt because they spend beyond their means. But someone earning $50k might actually have more money in the bank (in the present and in retirement) because they’re more frugal and sock the money away. Again, depending on which meaning Sayanta has it could widen or narrow her dating pool.
#2 (advance physically) and #11 (be healthy); I’d say that these are so close that they’re essentially the same group. Again, there’s variety here as well. Is it someone with a 6-pack, or who isn’t perfectly toned but can do most athletic activities, or someone a bit overweight but still can do most things, or?
#7 sexually attractive; I’d assume that this is whatever Sayanta finds sexually attractive, and everyone wants a partner toward whom they feel sexual attraction. Now if she only finds 9s and 10s attractive then it’s quite limiting, but again, the wider the range of what she finds attractive, the larger her dating pool gets.
#9 intelligent; Are we talking Einstein? Jeopardy Tournament of Champions champ? Local Trivial Pursuit nerd? Someone who understands literary and historical allusions? Someone who may not be as interested in book-stuff but is crazy-knowledgeable about construction or music or nature or? Or just someone who learns stuff quickly? Again, there are varying degrees of intelligence and some would constitute decent chunks of the population.
These are the main things that come to mind with the Karl/Sayanta list. Depending on Sayanta’s interpretations of these terms, she could still be open to considering a variety of men, or it could be extremely limiting. Don’t know why I’m going on about this, but just wanted to say that it’s not entirely possible for us to know if Sayanta’s tilting at windmills or if she really will win it all.
My but there’s a lot of reading here!
I’m curious to know, Sayanta, have you ever met someone like the man you hope to meet/marry someday? If you have, then whatever is on your list is reasonable to ask for. Sometimes we do meet people who are not in any way like the dreamboat we imagined for ourselves and despite having ‘flaws’ or not having certain qualities we thought were must-haves these people add to or help us redefine that list of qualifications a bit. I think one of the beauties of falling for someone is that very phenomenon.
If anyone cares to know a funny story about my ‘love life’ – last weekend I ended up unexpectedly spending the night with the guy I’ve had a crush on for about 18 months. I slept with him … in the sense that I slept in his bed next to him. There were no amorous interactions. I swear this type of thing only happens to me! But, since I’m still giddy from spending time with him, I think it’s cute and sort of funny 😉
Well Jeez, Heather, why didn’t you jump his bones? 😀
A-L-
Like Janet, you seem to be understanding my point as well- thank you!
No, I’m not looking for a Nobel Prize winner who has a trust fund- is only 35 years old, and over six feet with dark hair and blue/green eyes (the latter is my favorite hair-eye combination in men :-))
There’s no use in constantly rehashing my “list” here, because some other posters will convolute it to make it sound like I’m some high maintenance princess.
Yes, I want someone who has broad interests, is willing to grow in all respects (advance physically does not mean 6 pack- it means eating healthy food and exercising at least twice a week). I’m not going to cross that out of what I’d like to have- because when people stop trying to learn and improve themselves, that leads to stagnancy, which leads to dead relationships. This isn’t just limited to romance; it happens with friends and family as well. This does NOT mean I don’t accept people for who they are. I am FAR from perfect myself- I realize this fact but I unconditionally love and accept myself regardless. In the same context, I can easily accept a man with imperfections- and I have no choice there, since we’re all imperfect- and love him and support him unconditionally anyway, as I hope he’d do with me. To quote an Eastern parable, there is perfection in imperfection.
A trend I’ve noticed here, is that I keep writing pretty broad things about spirituality, emotion, etc. that I look for in a person, and then Karl R comes out with some analogy having to do with tennis partners and supermodel looks. This is hysterical, since, to my knowlege, none of the things I’ve ever said I look for in a partner can be considered shallow.
Yes, I know that ‘shallow’ is a relative term, but Karl R mentioned two things:
1) What if a guy met me and didn’t want me because I don’t play tennis? (I’m paraphrasing)
2) Would Janet be congratulating me if I was a 40 year old truck driver looking for a hot 18 year old?
Again, I repeat. I repeat. I don’t understand how someone with intellectual curiosity and willingness to grow (in the relationship and otherwise) can be compared to seeking sports partners and supermodel looks.
And now to the looks things- I NEVER said anywhere that I want a supermodel. There seems to be a hidden assumption somewhere that I’m only looking for Johnny Depp. In fact, sometimes when I tell friends about my crushes, they’ll give me a strange look and say ‘you like him?’ It’s all about that je ne sais quois for me, at the risk of sounding pretentious.
Yes, the college degree and age difference thing might be considered “strict” requirements to some- oh well. Sue me.
As for sex, I’ve said I’d wait for COMMITMENT. Originally I did say marriage, but I later changed that- a fact that got lost in my bazillion posts. Understandable.
I’ve also said I’m open to race, ethnicity,religion, etc. even though most Indian (my own race) men I’ve met have not had the most progressive views about women. Again, this does not mean (I hope) that none of them do. The fact that I’m not willing to consider someone who has conservative views on women’s role was implied to be a ridiculous requirement.
I ask you -as a professional woman and feminist- how can I, for example, date a guy who thinks women’s role is to stay at home and serve their man? I don’t have a problem with women who do this, by the way, I just probably wouldn’t do it myself. And things like that change once kids come along anyway.
Okay, I’m done here. For now.
Getting misquoted is tiresome, huh? 🙂
EMK-
LOL- you know what, I was actually going to say something about feeling your pain.
I’ve observed quite a bit of misquoting and misinterpretations on both sides, to be frank.
@Joe #113
I’m not that kind of girl! 😛
Actually, and this is a subject for an entire other discussion, there’s another reason I don’t/can’t initiate sex … I have herpes and I feel obligated to disclose this before anything physical goes down. You can imagine how this takes a lot of the spontaneity and reckless abandon out of my life. I don’t feel right making a move on a guy when I know I’m just going to have to stop halfway and drop that info. on him before anything can happen. Talk about mood killer! It really sucks, but what can I do about it?:(
Sayanta said: (#114)
“Karl R comes out with some analogy having to do with tennis partners and supermodel looks. This is hysterical, since, to my knowlege, none of the things I’ve ever said I look for in a partner can be considered shallow.”
“I don’t understand how someone with intellectual curiosity and willingness to grow (in the relationship and otherwise) can be compared to seeking sports partners and supermodel looks.”
Do you think the universe is going to reward you with a partner because you’re focused on “deep” traits? Do you think the universe punishes people who focus on “shallow” traits.
My question is whether you can attain a partner with the traits you seek.
Sayanta said: (#106)
“The thing that no one seemed to be getting about my list is that most of it goes to character, personality, and interests, and how a couple can mesh without these things is beyond me.”
The man seeking a tennis partner is seeking someone who shares his greatest interest. How is it more shallow for him to do this than you?
Sayanta said: (#114)
“Karl R mentioned:
Would Janet be congratulating me if I was a 40 year old truck driver looking for a hot 18 year old?”
Read my description again. I described a couple that you mentioned here:
https://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/why-does-my-older-boyfriend-kick-me-out-before-his-kids-wake-up-give-me-some-relationship-advice/#comment-52921
You know these people. And despite the traits that this man is seeking (and despite his apparent lack of qualities), he met and is dating a woman with those traits.
His wish list is attainable.
Sayanta said: (#114)
“I’m not looking for a Nobel Prize winner who has a trust fund- is only 35 years old, and over six feet with dark hair and blue/green eyes”
Sayanta said: (#52)
I’ve never been in anything serious at all! And I haven’t met wonderful guys, period.
To me, this is the ultimate test of how reasonable your criteria are. I have dated several amazing women (regardless of how deep or shallow my criteria are). It is reasonable to assume I will be able to do so in the future, should my current relationship end.
You have not met anyone met any single men you would describe as “wonderful,” much less been in a serious relationship with them.
Based on your own words, it seems that the man who meets your criteria may be unattainable.
What is the purpose of your criteria? The purpose seems to be to help you obtain a good partner. But I’ve gotten the impression that your criteria are preventing you from obtaining any partner (good or bad).
I’m not your enemy. I’m not preventing you from finding a relationship with a wonderful man.
Janet asked: (#105)
And does [your girlfriend] know and accept that you have a potential spare in the background should things not work out
I checked. I had discussed some part of that story with her around a month ago. She seemed more offended by the idea that she might have an issue with it. Her words:“I am not an unreasonable person.”
She did say she might have found the conversation “somewhat off-putting” if I had explained it poorly.
Karl, my brother, I’m impressed that you’ve combed this site to find my precise words on all these different posts. I feel like a politician!
So much anger here, and understandable. Bottom line is that what we want in the other sex is unattainable.
Evan seems to have said said everything I stated in this blog over a year ago in the Does dating even work post. This is what I said:
“The statistics I have shown above indicate that the key problem is that women are only interested in the very top of the scale. They do not realise just how selective they are. To them men of 6ft are plentiful in reality only 15% of the population at best.
Most women online wouldn’t give a guy with the national average salary a second look. 50% of men will earn less than this average.
If only 5% have the right income, and 5% have the right looks, and 15% have the right height, and 10% have the right intelligence then it follows that women will be perfectly happy with one man in 30,000 and half of them will suffer from substantial hair loss !”
However the point I was making was that women cannot help being this picky as it is hard wired in their brain. Indeed the above posts seem to show that they cannot come to terms with how their biology is reducing their dating options.
The big question is whether knowing this really helps, because we cannot change what we find attractive
@Quazerly#121
I agree with you. What irks me sometime is how women as a group are so blind to their own hypocrisy. They will go on forever how men only want sex and how men will have unrealistic expectations for looks. All while the stats you mentioned you exist.
Oh well, all is fair in love and war. Almost everyone is irrational, contradictory and often hypocritical in the dating arena. The only people they hurt are themselves. They will end up alone while other people move on.
Qazarly, technically average income is higher than the median income. The latter is the value which breaks 50/50.
Technology has killed all romance and mystery.
Joe , this came up last time. My memory of stats was that average could be mean, mode or median so it really depends on what the statisticians are measuring. You are correct in that the mean would be above the median.
Of course this would MEAN even fewer males acceptable lol.
I think younger educated women have real problems because they will not date down. Fifty percent of male graduates will marry non graduates. Sixty percent of graduates are female. Therefore there is only one ‘educationally acceptable’ male available for every three female graduates – and thats before they apply the other criteria.
Level of education as a criteria is mostly an analog for level of income.
If you haven’t had a serious relationship yet and you’re in your thirties – GET A DATING COACH! Something’s not right. And that something is probably you, since, well, you’re the common denominator here.
Also, how is the fictional dream man’s tennis criteria any more superficial than Sayatna’s art criteria?
Last thing, I have to agree with one of Steve’s early posts. When the camera panned to the crowd, I was so surprised! How do these people think that keeping such high standards will serve them well??
Lesson: We all overestimate our appeal to the opposite sex, and should perhaps take that into account when examining our dating criteria.
I have been having a discussion with a male friend of mine (more like a big brother) who just sent me an article that asks the question “are you too picky?”
I maintain that I am not. I am pragmatic. I have made no secret on my posts that I’m a woman that most men would consider too “fat” to date. The women considered “curvy” are probably size 16 tops, and that may be pushing it. But I digress.
I recognize that at my current weight, I am going to be considered undatable by the vast majority of men. I can lose weight, I get that, but it doesn’t happen over night. Anyway, this has been my honest to goodness experience that as a “fat” woman, if a man does show interest in me, its generally the sort of person who thinks because I’m fat I will settle for anything. They’re married; they’re desperate; they have anger issues; they do not have a similar level of intelligence or ability to converse. I could go on. The ones I’ve dated, I gave ample opportunity to pan into something. I dated one guy for 4 months and it felt like a chore, not dating. I gave another one a couple of months but after dealing with his misogyny one too many times, enough was enough.
I’m sure that there are many who would say, “well if you’re fat, you have no reason to have any standards, you should just be happy if you get asked out”. I don’t buy that. But, by the same token, I understand that I am not datable. So life goes on.
Liz, 128, second paragraph-
ouch. you may be right though. At this point, I really have no idea what appeals to the opposite sex. I’m on one site, get so many e-mails that I’ve lost count.
Just joined Match (only a few days, though), same pic and profile as the other one, and get a bazillion winks and no e-mails. Ok, maybe two. Funny thing is, I’ve got enthusiastic responses from men who ‘viewed’ me and whom I decided to e-mail first.
My point in saying this? I think it’s practically impossible to know what people want (both men and women) hell, I don’t even know what I want sometimes!
PS- These women on Match who get bombarded with 100s of e-mails a day…who the heck are they? I want to look at their profiles, but can’t since they’d think it’s weird that another woman’s “viewing” them. lol
Starthrower wrote, “as a “fat” woman, if a man does show interest in me, its generally the sort of person who thinks because I’m fat I will settle for anything. They’re married; they’re desperate; they have anger issues; they do not have a similar level of intelligence or ability to converse.”
I can sympathize, Starthrower. But I don’t think this is because of your size. I think it’s because you’re dating. I’m sure there are plenty of size 4 women who can talk about being hit on by married, desperate, stupid, and socially awkward men who have anger issues. It’s just one of the dangers of putting yourself out on the dating market.
A-L,
I’m sure that there are just as many man who could make the same comment about women. I think that the “hot” women get more attention, but really, if we take a closer look, “hot” women, and those of use who are not probably struggle with most of the same dating issues. I’m not going to say that “all men are this” or “all men do that” but it does seem we have more experience with the troubles than the positives. But then again, if all we heard on here were positives, Evan would have no questions to address.
Starthrower,
The fact that you have dated not one but several men indicates that you are not in fact “undatable.” Moreover, many thin and attractive women have received the same type of treatment you describe. So, I’m not certain why you think the treatment you received only happened because you were fat. It appears you are telling yourself stories that facts don’t support.
I think I mentioned this once before but a dated when I was ” plus sized” and dated when I was “average sized” and there was no difference in the way men treated me. And, I specifically lost weight so that I could attract a higher quality of men. When losing weight didn’t help me attract better quality men, I had to accept the fact that “fat” wasn’t the sole reason for my dating woes. I think because women disassociate themselves from their bodies when we blame things on the “fat,” there is a certain comfort, because we kind of feel as if the fat isn’t really who we are. Once you lose the fat and things still aren’t working out, then you have to face the fact that maybe what’s wrong is something else….it’s something else that really IS you. What I think it all boils down to is at the end of the day, if YOU don’t love yourself totally and completely and unconditionally, nobody else will — and if by some miracle they do, you won’t believe them.
To be sure, there are men who will not want to date you because you are fat. But, there are men who won’t want to date you for many other reasons too. I think, however, whatever we most dislike about ourselves is the thing we just know beyond a doubt is the reason all men don’t like us or all men will mistreat us.
Starthrower, not all men think fat women are undatable, and the ones that want to date them aren’t all jerks or bottom feeders either. But, if that’s what you believe, that is how it will be for you.
Kenley,
I’m not getting into the psychology here; I’m speaking strictly from the standpoint of someone who is going on a personals site, knowing nothing about and having never met any of the women on the profiles. EMK says in another blog “hot women can write ‘I hate you; I hate you; I hate you'” and still get all kinds of attention, even if the profile is subpar or mediocre.
We can argue all the live long day whether or not my attitude, issues, etc scare off a man after I’m dating him. I’m not saying it is or isn’t. What I am saying is that because I’m honest – not self insulting – about my body type in profile, the intial contacts are not happening for me. I’m not putting on my profile, “oh you’re not going to be interested in my because I’m not skinny”. I made the best attempt I knew how to write and interesting and unique profile that would set me apart and hopefully express that I’m an interesting person. I made positive, albeit showing my dry wit, not negative.
Hope that clears things up for you.
Oh, and to Evan and Sayanta above, along with misquotes, there also seems to be some taking out of context, too….
I don’t see anywhere that Evan misquoted you. Perhaps you’re referring to his comment that it sucks to be misquoted?
This is an interesting discussion! Some of you might want to check out Ok Cupid’s blog post about how your looks (photos) affect how often you’re contacted. “Site-wide, two-thirds of male messages go to the best-looking third of women. So basically, guys are fighting each other 2-for-1 for the absolute best-rated females, while plenty of potentially charming, even cute, girls go unwritten.”
Cat, thanks for the link. A very interesting article. So should we posit that one’s reply rate (percentage of people who reply to your initial e-mails) is a decent way to figure out how attractive people think you are? If so, everyone’s egos are about to take a hit (as most here report rates of 10-35%).
According to the article if you’ve got a reply rate of less than 22% (if you’re male) or 26% (if you’re female) then you’re in the least attractive category. Medium attractiveness is at 38% for males and 50% for females. And to score most attractive then men need a rate of around 53% and women 66%. (These numbers are my best estimate at reading the line graph “Message Reply Rates Earned vs. Sender’s Attractiveness.”)
By this reasoning, I’m medium-low in attractiveness. So apparently my self-scoring of 5-6 was quite off (from the Do You Overestimate Yourself thread. Apparently I’m closer to a 3.
Bringing this back to this thread (and the comments by Steve & Liz), how many people are way overshooting for what they consider dateable? How many 3s are expecting to date 8s, because they think they’re a 7 or an 8?
Oh, sorry, another question for A-L-
I don’t know if you’ve read some of the posts from the past month or so, but some people said not to discount the men who write 2-liner profiles of the “work hard/play hard” variety, or with millions of typos, in that, they could be a great guy who just doesn’t know how to write.
You sound just like me, in that writing style and a deep, thoughtful profile seems to be important to you. Did you ever consider men like the above for dating purposes? Do you recommend it, if you did?
I don’t know- I hate to keep harping on this, but I think age is the crucial factor- I mean, there’s no other reason that I would get bombarded at age 28-29 with e-mails, and only 2 years later get none (no, I haven’t gained weight, gotten a new unattractive, hairstyle, etc.) For an experiment, I put up the pics I had at 28 (when I was getting bombarded), but kept my age as 31 (which it now is). Still no hits. I shouldn’t say no hits- about 700 men have ‘viewed’ me in the past 3 days. So, apparently my pic is prompting them to take a look.
Unless it’s because I’m starting my profile with a literature quote. I mean- I was looking at the men who’ve viewed me over the past week, and it’s not as though I felt like I was missing out on anything by not getting e-mails from them. Most were two-line profiles that said “I like sports. I work hard and play hard.” Others barely were able to write the English language.
I, on the other hand, spent hours really perfecting my profile, to make it deep, humorous, etc.
So, it can’t be the pic (considering my experiment)- it must be my actual profile. I don’t know what to think of this- I guess this means guys really do care about what your profile says, instead of going just for the pic? LOL
Sorry- you guys must think I’m the most impatient person in the world, considering I’ve been on Match all of 7 days. 😀
Cat,
Please see EMK’s post above (#115) where he responds to Santaya that it’s tiresom to be misquoted.
Starthrower
I am a size 3 – I TOTALLY have the same types of men sending me flirts. I always think I get these guys because I’m 40. But they probably send them out to everyone.
A-L
I think of myself as a 5 or 6 also; and I always wonder if I think I’m better looking than I actually am. I’m not one of the women writing “I hate you. I hate you. I hate you” in my profile and getting 100 emails a day. It is so hard to be objective about ourselves. But I’m happy with the way I look so maybe that is all that matters.
PS to Starthrower – I do wonder what the people who post here look like at times. Once, when you outed yourself on here, I looked at your picture on Evan’s Facebook page. I thought you looked really cute! Sorry – not normally a stalker.
BTDT-
Well- I would show you my FB page, but I feel weird about outing myself (lol…full name and all).
Thank you for the compliment A-L. That is very sweet of you :o)
Sorry, I mean thank you Been There Done That…duuuuuhhhhh….
Sayanta
I know what you mean. I feel the same way. It’d be different it were more private although – how private is face book?
Yoohoo, Evan! Can I just say that I would totally love to see what everyone looks like too? Some blogs have commenters register at gravitar.com and you can upload a picture. That way when you post there’s a miniature picture that pops up too. Perhaps that way we can see what each other looks like while maintaining our private identities.
RE: Sayanta’s #138
I did see the blog entry where Evan was promoting being understanding of guys’ whose profiles talked about working/playing hard and/or had some grammatical errors. If a guy wrote a 3 line profile and had errors & zero creativity, then I would generally blow those off. But if it was obvious that the guy put some thought into his profile, and it was generally well-written but had an error or two, I would overlook it.
In fact, my fiance had two errors in his profile. But I could tell that he had put thought into it and he sounded like someone I’d like to know more about. And our e-mails were not filled with scintillating repartee. But they were genuine and it was obvious that he read my profile and he always referenced things from previous e-mails or phone conversations. In fact, he really wowed me on our first date by remembering so many small details which I had mentioned in passing. So are there great guys with errors in their profiles? Absolutely.
I guess my advice would be to look at the overall picture. Is there effort there? Was the mistake a rarity, or did it look like it was a mistake when they actually wrote something correctly? How do you feel after reading their profile? If you have a positive feeling (or perhaps, just not a negative feeling) then I’d give them a shot.
I have to comment on Helen’s #64:
Sayanta, I too am an arts/music/literature freak. My hubby can’t carry a tune, falls asleep when listening to classical music, and teases me for loving art museums so much. It doesn’t matter for a LTR. Not at all. Please believe me on this. If and when you have kids, you are not going to have time for that anyway.
You want a hubby who will be on your side, who always defends you, who sympathizes with you, who tells you he loves you and reminds you of your good qualities. You want someone who appreciates you and loves you. You don’t need a brilliant, handsome, or cultured man for that.
I only agree to a point. From my experience, to a certain point, closeness of interests does matter. True, it doesn’t need to be all or nothing, but it does matter.
“If and when you have kids, you are not going to have time for that anyway.” is only correct until the youngest kid hits their teens and doesn’t want to hang out with Mom and Dad anymore. Then Mom and Dad are free to do whatever they want as a couple. Except Mom wants to go to an art exhibit, and Dad wants to go fishing. Every. single. time.
But wait, it gets better. When Mom’s artsy friends and Dad’s fishing friends get together, things get awkward very fast! Well not for Dad’s friends, because they get plastered quickly enough and they feel comfortable enough after that. But, bottom line, it pretty much comes down to the fact that Mom and Dad have each their own set of friends that are unable to mingle.
Meantime, Mom sees her artsy friends go to concerts, exhibits, theater plays, vacations that she’d actually find interesting… with their husbands, and the husbands seem to actually enjoy every minute of it. She sees couples that do things together — things that interest them both — and that brings them closer together as couples. At concerts, plays, etc. she’s the only single person in the group and she’s sick of sticking out like a sore thumb, but there’s no way her husband can be persuaded to come to any of these events, just like she cannot be persuaded to go fishing.
She feels like a single woman who, for some reason, has a grown man living in her house.
I have just described my marriage, thank you for listening. And we didn’t even get to the point where both kids moved out of the house. Frankly, I was so terrified of what would happen after that, I decided not to wait.
I would also add that, in my opinion, a man who has nothing in common with you and is adamant that he wants to keep things that way, does not understand you, does not understand your interests, refuses to make an effort to do so, refuses to try any new things or use his brain in any way outside of work, — is not “on your side” already by definition. He wouldn’t know your side if it walked up to him and smacked him in the face! How on earth can he be “on” it? How can he say he appreciates you, if he has no interest in anything that makes you tick? He’s just hanging around for hot meals and regular sex. I am not, of course, referring to Helen’s family here AT ALL. (Her marriage sounds pretty cool, so I am sure she’s omitted quite a few positive details of their life together in the above post) Rather, to mine and other families like it.
I’ll admit that I do not yet have an answer. From my dating experience, I am already finding out that for a man to be interested in the exact same things you are, is not nearly enough. My guess would be that an interest in you as a person, combined with some degree of intellectual curiosity that would make it fun for him to try new things, and some degree of brain capacity that would make it possible for him to understand those new things, will probably make for a happy couple. But that’s just a guess that I’ll have to verify on my own 🙂
Hi Goldie – this definitely is a dimension of marriage that I hadn’t even considered when writing my earlier response. Having different interests isn’t unusual. What sounds unusual in this case is that he seemed completely unwilling to participate in these activities with you and to be cordial with your friends (and possibly the other way too?). Part of the fun of marriage is going to these new activities with your spouse and making new sets of friends and acquaintances. What you described above sounds like complete incompatibility and unwillingness to try new things.
I’m confused by what you said about being terrified of what would happen after the kids go to college. “Terrified” is a pretty strong term when it comes to describing two people with divergent interests. Were these differences really so intolerable?
What I had meant by spouses being on each others’ sides has nothing to do with compatibility of interests. It means being loyal to each other in the face of everything life throws at us, and believing the best of the other person. It means sticking up for the other person both in professional and familial contexts.
I really wish you all the best in your dating experiences now!
It all depends. I met my bf of 3 years RIGHT after he was gtnietg a divorce ( yes paperwork wasn’t even done). I don’t consider myself a rebound girl and we are both very happy. His ex waited until 6 months after. If you meet the right person for you it just works. I actually find it is better after a break up because you know the mistakes you made with the first and what you don’t want in your next relationship.